0:00:00 > 0:00:12Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:12 > 0:00:18Welcome to HARDtalk. I'm Stephen Sackur. There was a time last year
0:00:18 > 0:00:23when it seemed that President Maduro's grip of an power in
0:00:23 > 0:00:28Venezuela was loosening. Yet here we are, two months away from a
0:00:28 > 0:00:32presidential election with Maduro using confidence and his opponents
0:00:32 > 0:00:39seemingly in disarray. My guest today is one diehard anti- regime
0:00:39 > 0:00:43activists, David Smolansky, who was the mayor of a district in Caracas
0:00:43 > 0:00:48until he fled the country to escape a jail term for aiding the street
0:00:48 > 0:00:52protests last year. Wide as Venezuela's opposition so
0:00:52 > 0:01:24consistently promise more than it delivers? David Smolansky in
0:01:24 > 0:01:31Washington, DC. Welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you very much for having me.
0:01:31 > 0:01:37We're glad to have you won the show, albeit via satellite in Washington,
0:01:37 > 0:01:43DC. How does it feel to be a Venezuelan, a politician, an
0:01:43 > 0:01:47activist who currently is living in the US capital? Do you feel
0:01:47 > 0:01:55uncomfortable?Obviously it is not comfortable because I want to be in
0:01:55 > 0:02:02the country. I am a public servant. I was removed from office with no
0:02:02 > 0:02:07justification at all. At the same time, I have prepared myself to be
0:02:07 > 0:02:15in exile because I know that this regime does not tolerate things that
0:02:15 > 0:02:23are different.You were the mayor of a district of Caracas. A district
0:02:23 > 0:02:30where we saw mass street protests in the summer of last year. The
0:02:30 > 0:02:34government accused you of using your powers to aid and abet the protest
0:02:34 > 0:02:40rather than keep the streets clear, you encourage the protest is to
0:02:40 > 0:02:48block the streets. Is that true?It is not true. Firstly, our laws and
0:02:48 > 0:02:55our Constitution guarantee the right that any citizen may protest. Every
0:02:55 > 0:03:03protest that I had in my district in Caracas was peaceful. Nonviolent.
0:03:03 > 0:03:14The hospital of my town, El Hatillo, had to tend to hundreds of students
0:03:14 > 0:03:20who were wounded because of the oppression of the security forces.
0:03:20 > 0:03:28Maduro does not tolerate any mayor in the position. 13 mayors in the
0:03:28 > 0:03:34last four years have been removed. We represent 10 million of the
0:03:34 > 0:03:39population of Venezuela, that is one third of the population.As you say,
0:03:39 > 0:03:42the Supreme Court removed you from office. It did not remove you from
0:03:42 > 0:03:47the country. That was entirely your decision as it became clear that you
0:03:47 > 0:03:51are going to be imprisoned for 15 months on these charges of aiding
0:03:51 > 0:03:57and abetting the protests, you did not stay to face the music, you
0:03:57 > 0:04:05chose to flee. I wonder, in retrospect, given that some other
0:04:05 > 0:04:09Venezuelans, politicians including the leader of your own party have
0:04:09 > 0:04:13taken a very different decision, they have chosen to stay and fight,
0:04:13 > 0:04:28you regret your decision?I do not regret. I went to Einstein for 30
0:04:28 > 0:04:32days. When I was there, security forces were looking after me. My
0:04:32 > 0:04:44family was threatened. My team was also threatened. I decided to flee
0:04:44 > 0:04:48the country because I think I can do more in exile to recover democracy
0:04:48 > 0:04:52and freedom in Venezuela. It is a very personal decision. I do not
0:04:52 > 0:05:01regret it and I have a history with this because of my grandparents who
0:05:01 > 0:05:10left in -- Europe in the and then my parents who left Cuba. I had to
0:05:10 > 0:05:15leave Venezuela so I know what it is to lead a country.I do take that
0:05:15 > 0:05:20point and I am very aware that it is easy for me to sit in a studio in
0:05:20 > 0:05:23London and second-guess a very difficult decision that you had to
0:05:23 > 0:05:27face. I return to the leader of your party, one of the leading opposition
0:05:27 > 0:05:33figures in the country, Lopez. I notice myself because I visited your
0:05:33 > 0:05:40country and had some experience talking to Lopez's family. He made
0:05:40 > 0:05:44the decision to stay and fight. He ended up in detention for a while
0:05:44 > 0:05:47and is currently under house arrest. In many ways I think many
0:05:47 > 0:05:50Venezuelans would argue that that enhanced his credibility. You were
0:05:50 > 0:05:55one of the youngest opposition mayors in all of Venezuela, a rising
0:05:55 > 0:06:00star in the party. I wonder if you think your credibility, in some
0:06:00 > 0:06:05ways, has been damaged by fleeing, first to Brazil and then to
0:06:05 > 0:06:10Washington, DC?First of all I have to say that Leopoldo Lopez has shown
0:06:10 > 0:06:24courage. He is a brave man, our leader. He leads Voluntad Popular.
0:06:24 > 0:06:29And when I fled I was able to talk to him and he supported the
0:06:29 > 0:06:34decision. I am not the only one from a political party in exile.
0:06:34 > 0:06:38Secondly, I am not concerned about my credibility because at the end of
0:06:38 > 0:06:44the day, you build an ability when you have clear convictions. My
0:06:44 > 0:06:51convictions in Washington, DC, Brazil or anywhere, if I go, the
0:06:51 > 0:06:56same as they are in Venezuela I work hard to recover democracy, to
0:06:56 > 0:07:02recover security and being able to return to Venezuela, being part of a
0:07:02 > 0:07:09generation that will rebuild our country that is suffering too much.
0:07:09 > 0:07:14Your country is suffering. The economy is in a terrible mess and
0:07:14 > 0:07:17poverty rates are frighteningly high and people are struggling for food
0:07:17 > 0:07:22and a sick medicines. Yet, the protest movement, which was so
0:07:22 > 0:07:26strong last year and saw hundreds of thousands of people take to the
0:07:26 > 0:07:30streets of Caracas and other towns and cities, it has dwindled to
0:07:30 > 0:07:42nothing. Why?Why? Because Maduro was against the wall and he used
0:07:42 > 0:07:47weapons, he used guns and he used all its and he used all the forces
0:07:47 > 0:07:58to keep power. Last year I was on those protest. 120 consecutive days,
0:07:58 > 0:08:02we were on the streets nonviolently and over 130 people were killed. As
0:08:02 > 0:08:12a mayor I had to bury five of them. The world needs to understand that
0:08:12 > 0:08:17Venezuelans, the vast majority, disapprove of this regime. We have
0:08:17 > 0:08:25not been able to change Maduro because he is using weapons to keep
0:08:25 > 0:08:32power and unfortunately part of the armed Forces, part of the Armed
0:08:32 > 0:08:36Forces are a political party with weapons which is something dangerous
0:08:36 > 0:08:40for people, as I said before, for people who are suffering and have to
0:08:40 > 0:08:44flee the country.You say the world needs to understand. I think one
0:08:44 > 0:08:49thing the world are struggling to understand is what exactly the
0:08:49 > 0:08:52strategy of the opposition is. I am looking at quotes here from the man
0:08:52 > 0:08:58we discussed earlier, Leopoldo Lopez, also a mayor, another mirror
0:08:58 > 0:09:02of Caracas and another opposition leader. All of them were saying last
0:09:02 > 0:09:07year that these protests will continue until we bring Maduro now.
0:09:07 > 0:09:11That there we have it, Nicolas Maduro is still in power. There are
0:09:11 > 0:09:15no more street protests and the opposition just last week was
0:09:15 > 0:09:19actually in a dialogue, and negotiation with Maduro. So what is
0:09:19 > 0:09:27the strategy today?First of all we have had protest. Just different
0:09:27 > 0:09:31protest to the once we had last year, they were political protest
0:09:31 > 0:09:38last year but if you see the protest we have had in 2018, it is desperate
0:09:38 > 0:09:44people looking for food, looking for medicines and Maduro has also
0:09:44 > 0:09:47oppressed innocent people. Second, the negotiations and the Dominican
0:09:47 > 0:09:53Republic um which, I must say, I disagree and in my opinion that was
0:09:53 > 0:09:59a regime strategy to gain time to keep power, at the end of the day it
0:09:59 > 0:10:06did not have any agreement. The opposition went, they did not sign
0:10:06 > 0:10:11an agreement because we do not have free elections. The majority of the
0:10:11 > 0:10:19candidates Irene exile, in jail, they are ruled out to compete. The
0:10:19 > 0:10:25political party has been utilised so you cannot go to an election where
0:10:25 > 0:10:29the only one who can compete is Nicolas Maduro with a referee
0:10:29 > 0:10:36playing for him.Isn't this the point I am getting at? There is deep
0:10:36 > 0:10:41division and some might say chaos within the opposition. You have an
0:10:41 > 0:10:47opposition leader who was adamant that they should go to Dominican
0:10:47 > 0:10:50Republic and six law possibilities with the regime and then you have
0:10:50 > 0:10:56others like yourself saying no, that is a crazy idea. There is no
0:10:56 > 0:11:04strategy or vision within the opposition.I say this after the
0:11:04 > 0:11:09dialogue, as someone who is in power with a political party, you must be
0:11:09 > 0:11:14disciplined and I was. Unfortunately there was no agreement at all. I
0:11:14 > 0:11:19must say something. I think media, and the international community, all
0:11:19 > 0:11:23the time are talking about the different criteria that the position
0:11:23 > 0:11:29has which in my position is good because that is democracy. No-one is
0:11:29 > 0:11:41talking about the divisions in the regime. The Minister of Justice,
0:11:41 > 0:11:49Torres, he left the political party of the regime. And it is critical to
0:11:49 > 0:11:55the regime. I look more to the fractures in the regime. In my
0:11:55 > 0:12:00opinion it is good to have different criteria from the opposition but I
0:12:00 > 0:12:10agree with you that we need to have one strategy. And our strategy at
0:12:10 > 0:12:14the moment is that we are not going to elections because there is no
0:12:14 > 0:12:18guarantee. It is not free, it is not fair and as I said before, the
0:12:18 > 0:12:24candidates Irene exile, imprisoned or unavailable.But that would be a
0:12:24 > 0:12:27big mistake because Nicolas Maduro is now adamant that the elections
0:12:27 > 0:12:33will happen on April 22. He says, and I quote, we should be united as
0:12:33 > 0:12:36Venezuelans, putting aside our differences, putting our country
0:12:36 > 0:12:41first and showing what really unites us. He says he welcomes a challenge
0:12:41 > 0:12:45from anybody in the opposition who chooses to stand against him for the
0:12:45 > 0:12:49presidency. It is not going to look good, when you are the champions of
0:12:49 > 0:12:54democracy and yet you refuse to take up this opportunity to defeat Maduro
0:12:54 > 0:13:00at the ballot box.Are you a champion of democracy if you go to
0:13:00 > 0:13:07an election that is democratic. We do not have that in Venezuela
0:13:07 > 0:13:13because there is no independent institution and as I said before,
0:13:13 > 0:13:16the political party for the opposition and candidates are ruled
0:13:16 > 0:13:22out thickly must be coherent. And to be coherent is to say we can go to
0:13:22 > 0:13:29the election unless we have the conditions. Were not alone in that.
0:13:29 > 0:13:32France, Spain, the United States, Canada even Colombia have said that
0:13:32 > 0:13:39they will not recognise elections in Venezuela. Last week, the European
0:13:39 > 0:13:45Parliament um with a landslide 480 votes in favour, condemned that call
0:13:45 > 0:13:52for election and said that sanctions must be expanded after those
0:13:52 > 0:14:00sanctions. -- so almost nobody in the world is recognising the
0:14:00 > 0:14:03election that we are having in Venezuela.Is one of the problems
0:14:03 > 0:14:10here that despite the massive economic problems facing ordinary
0:14:10 > 0:14:14Venezuelans, many of your countrymen and women do not trust the various
0:14:14 > 0:14:19leaders and figures in the opposition to deliver a better,
0:14:19 > 0:14:29fairer Venezuela than the current regime of Maduro? I will quote you
0:14:29 > 0:14:32one respected analyst of Venezuelan who lives here in London at the
0:14:32 > 0:14:38University of Lund. He said this. The majority of Venezuelans fear the
0:14:38 > 0:14:42return of the right wing to power, more than the alleged incompetence
0:14:42 > 0:14:43of Maduro.
0:14:47 > 0:14:55The majority of Venezuelans are surviving. Fortunately, people are
0:14:55 > 0:15:00not leaving Venezuela that the people are surviving. The majority
0:15:00 > 0:15:04of Venezuelans wake up every day looking at what they will have for
0:15:04 > 0:15:08breakfast, the majority go to bed very worried because they do not
0:15:08 > 0:15:15find a medicine to cure a member of their family.I know that to be true
0:15:15 > 0:15:20because I have seen it for myself. Yeah.My point is many of the
0:15:20 > 0:15:25poorest people in Venice do not see that the opposition coalition groups
0:15:25 > 0:15:30have an agenda which is more likely to deliver them an easier and better
0:15:30 > 0:15:41life than the Xavi state government. -- Venezuela. -- Chauvista.We had
0:15:41 > 0:15:47demonstrations last year. That was the last chance to have free and
0:15:47 > 0:15:52fair elections. We're not going this election. And is now we are
0:15:52 > 0:15:56discussing in different ways how to face these challenges. Do you want
0:15:56 > 0:16:01to hear my opinion? I will tell you on this programme. My opinion is
0:16:01 > 0:16:06that we need to go to an election by ourselves, as we did last year on
0:16:06 > 0:16:14the 16th of July. You can correct me, but we need to do that. We need
0:16:14 > 0:16:18to elect our president, our vice president, the Minister of Foreign
0:16:18 > 0:16:22Affairs, someone responsible for the economy, and we have something
0:16:22 > 0:16:25really unique in our dictatorship. We still have a parliament. And that
0:16:25 > 0:16:31Parliament could swear in the new president.OK, imagine you did that.
0:16:31 > 0:16:35What policies would you actually pursue? I want to put you on the
0:16:35 > 0:16:39spot on one particular Wallasey, and that is, would you back much tougher
0:16:39 > 0:16:46international sanctions? -- policy. United States, where you are today,
0:16:46 > 0:16:51for example, they are going to deepen the sanctions regime to stop
0:16:51 > 0:16:55it targeting known individuals at the top of the regime and actually
0:16:55 > 0:16:59consider an oil embargo. Now, what would you as an opposition figure in
0:16:59 > 0:17:06America, what would you say to the idea of that kind of much more tough
0:17:06 > 0:17:13sanctions regime imposed by the United States?OK, let me go part by
0:17:13 > 0:17:17part first, it would not be that symbolic. It would have the support
0:17:17 > 0:17:21of the people, the support of the Parliament, and the support of
0:17:21 > 0:17:27international communities. We could get Maduro against the wall again.
0:17:27 > 0:17:33Second, I think that it is important to keep the sanctions, not only from
0:17:33 > 0:17:37the United States and Canada, I think it is important what the
0:17:37 > 0:17:40European Union said last week. And also, something I would like to
0:17:40 > 0:17:45propose, Latin American countries that could, for example, restrict
0:17:45 > 0:17:54the, umm, flights that some of the high officials do in Latin America.
0:17:54 > 0:17:57That would be really important. Because many of the high officials
0:17:57 > 0:18:01and their families have their properties and bank accounts in
0:18:01 > 0:18:07Latin America. And third, the oil embargo. I mean, the oil embargo is
0:18:07 > 0:18:12something that, it sounds, in my opinion, out of context in this
0:18:12 > 0:18:19moment. Why is that? Venezuela has, as you know, the biggest oil
0:18:19 > 0:18:22reserves in the world. We should be exporting at least five or 6 million
0:18:22 > 0:18:26barrels a day. Now we are exporting just a million. I mean, the person
0:18:26 > 0:18:35that has embargoed our country is destroying Venezuela.You are in
0:18:35 > 0:18:40Washington, DC. Have you had contact with Senator Marco Rubio from
0:18:40 > 0:18:45Florida?I have not talked to him personally. I have just been in
0:18:45 > 0:18:51Washington for three months. So I have had talks with the, umm, part
0:18:51 > 0:19:00of his staff, but I have not known him personally.But his staff, the
0:19:00 > 0:19:03other day Rubio tweeted this. The world would support the armed forces
0:19:03 > 0:19:07in Venezuela if they decided to protect the people and restore
0:19:07 > 0:19:12democracy by removing this dictator. You support that kind of language
0:19:12 > 0:19:18coming from American politician?I think what is really important for
0:19:18 > 0:19:24Venezuelans is we need to persuade our soldiers to be institutional.
0:19:24 > 0:19:28Unfortunately, our Venezuela right now has 2000 generals, that is more
0:19:28 > 0:19:35than the whole navy. And those 2000 generals are allegedly linked to
0:19:35 > 0:19:39things very dangerous such as trafficking, money laundering, and
0:19:39 > 0:19:45corruption. But the low and middle range of our soldiers are suffering
0:19:45 > 0:19:53like any other Venezuelan. They suffer from hyperinflation, 70- 80%.
0:19:53 > 0:19:58If we persuade them to be institutional, to obey the laws in
0:19:58 > 0:20:02the Constitution, I think we can have a change in Venezuela.You have
0:20:02 > 0:20:06not really answered my question so I will ask it again, this time with
0:20:06 > 0:20:12the words of Secretary of State Rex Tillerson. He said in the history of
0:20:12 > 0:20:14Venezuela and other South American countries, oftentimes the military
0:20:14 > 0:20:19is the agent of change when things are very bad. A clear implication he
0:20:19 > 0:20:23thinks that time has come in Venezuela. I put it to you again.
0:20:23 > 0:20:28The Americans at the very top level are suggesting the time has come for
0:20:28 > 0:20:34an army rebellion against the regime. Do you back those calls? Are
0:20:34 > 0:20:38you pleased the Americans are using the language?As I said before, I
0:20:38 > 0:20:47mean, I would not get to the play of words. What I am clear, and as
0:20:47 > 0:20:52someone who had to work with police, and we had to work sometimes with
0:20:52 > 0:20:56the National Guard, we need our soldiers to obey the Constitution.
0:20:56 > 0:21:03We need our soldiers to obey the laws. We need them to be
0:21:03 > 0:21:09institutional. And if they...What you are repeatedly avoiding is any
0:21:09 > 0:21:13mention of the US role. People like you and the opposition who end up in
0:21:13 > 0:21:19Washington, DC are painted by Maduro and his allies as people who are
0:21:19 > 0:21:29fellow travellers with imperialismo, traditional US interference in
0:21:29 > 0:21:32Venezuelan affairs that be if you cannot defend that language from
0:21:32 > 0:21:40Washington, perhaps Maduro has a point.As I said before, I do not
0:21:40 > 0:21:43have any problem to repeat that we need to persuade our soldiers to be
0:21:43 > 0:21:47institutional. The problem is that, in the history of Latin America, we
0:21:47 > 0:21:52have talked all the time about coup de tat. In my opinion, in Venezuela,
0:21:52 > 0:22:00we have continuous coup de tats. For example, the election on April 22 to
0:22:00 > 0:22:03be historically, presidential elections are always at the end of
0:22:03 > 0:22:09every year and are called six months before -- 22nd. So when I say that
0:22:09 > 0:22:15we need to persuade our soldiers to be institutional, umm, I do not
0:22:15 > 0:22:20regret that. And to be in the United States and called imperialist, that
0:22:20 > 0:22:25is something that, to be honest with you, I do not want to sound rude, I
0:22:25 > 0:22:32do not care, because the country has intervened with Cubans, the Chinese
0:22:32 > 0:22:38and Russians also playing very hard in our country, taking our oil. The
0:22:38 > 0:22:41problem in Venezuelan needs to be solved by Venezuelans, but at the
0:22:41 > 0:22:47same time, when it help from the international community, especially
0:22:47 > 0:22:50to recover the economy and solve the humanitarian crisis.We will end
0:22:50 > 0:22:54with this point. You have been sitting in Washington for the last
0:22:54 > 0:22:57three months doing the best to play an external political role, raising
0:22:57 > 0:23:04the profile of the opposition campaign against Maduroyou
0:23:04 > 0:23:08disappointed with the international community. Russia, China, China,
0:23:08 > 0:23:11they are still backing Maduro. Many leftists in Latin America and Europe
0:23:11 > 0:23:15and elsewhere still backing Maduro. Are you fundamentally disappointed?
0:23:15 > 0:23:20I am not at all. I have to say the international community has been
0:23:20 > 0:23:23really active in Venezuela, especially in the last month. Just
0:23:23 > 0:23:27what you saw in the European Parliament last week, 480
0:23:27 > 0:23:34parliamentarians voted condemning the call to elections in Venezuela,
0:23:34 > 0:23:39including, including, left-wing political parties. When you see
0:23:39 > 0:23:45president Santos saying they will not recognise those elections, but
0:23:45 > 0:23:50Venezuelans are fleeing. For the first time, I feel for the first
0:23:50 > 0:23:55time we are not alone, we are not isolated as the opposition, and we
0:23:55 > 0:23:59have to see that the things going on in Venezuela is not a threat to
0:23:59 > 0:24:11Venezuelans. The regime of Maduro is the biggest crisis in the Western
0:24:11 > 0:24:14Hemisphere and threatens Venezuelans.We have the end of
0:24:14 > 0:24:18there. But thank you very much for coming on HARDtalk thank you very
0:24:18 > 0:24:21much for having me.