0:00:00 > 0:00:04website. And you can reach me on Twitter as well.
0:00:04 > 0:00:09Now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk.
0:00:09 > 0:00:11Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:11 > 0:00:14The Israeli Defence Force sees itself as an institution which binds
0:00:14 > 0:00:15the nation together.
0:00:15 > 0:00:17Most young Israelis serve in its ranks after leaving school.
0:00:17 > 0:00:20It claims to combine defence of the state
0:00:20 > 0:00:21with a sense of moral purpose.
0:00:21 > 0:00:24My guest today served in the IDF but he sees
0:00:24 > 0:00:26an institution in denial, Corroded and corrupted
0:00:26 > 0:00:28by the military occupation of Palestinian communities over
0:00:28 > 0:00:29a 50 year span.
0:00:29 > 0:00:31Avner Gvaryahu and like-minded soldiers turned dissidents say
0:00:31 > 0:00:33they are breaking the silence.
0:00:33 > 0:00:53Are they patriots or traitors?
0:01:18 > 0:01:19Avner Gvaryahu, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:19 > 0:01:27Thank you.
0:01:27 > 0:01:30I think it's fair to say, the IDF is probably the most
0:01:30 > 0:01:32sacrosanct institution in all of Israel.
0:01:32 > 0:01:36Was it hard for you to cross a line, to break the taboo and speak out
0:01:36 > 0:01:38against what the IDF is doing?
0:01:38 > 0:01:40Breaking the silence, I think, in any context isn't easy.
0:01:40 > 0:01:44Definitely in the Israeli society, it's not a natural thing in that
0:01:44 > 0:01:45sense, to break that kind of silence.
0:01:46 > 0:01:48But I think that myself, like over 1000 soldiers,
0:01:48 > 0:01:50are a part of breaking the silence, former soldiers.
0:01:50 > 0:01:54It was much more difficult for me to keep my silence than to break it,
0:01:55 > 0:01:56and it's true that there are prices.
0:01:56 > 0:02:00But the truth of the matter is, I care too much for my country
0:02:00 > 0:02:02and my society to keep silent.
0:02:02 > 0:02:11And although there are push backs, we will persevere.
0:02:11 > 0:02:14You broke the silence after you'd put your uniform
0:02:14 > 0:02:15away and left the IDF.
0:02:15 > 0:02:24Were you silent while you were a serving soldier?
0:02:24 > 0:02:26Well, I didn't feel that I was silent.
0:02:26 > 0:02:29I remember occasions where I brought up what I was doing
0:02:29 > 0:02:32in the nights in Nablus and Jenin when I was back home.
0:02:32 > 0:02:36I thought I wasn't silent when I asked my soldiers what they thought
0:02:36 > 0:02:37about these operations.
0:02:37 > 0:02:39But it actually took me a while after my service
0:02:39 > 0:02:43where I actually thought that I could put my military service
0:02:43 > 0:02:45behind me, to realise that I, myself, was also silent.
0:02:45 > 0:02:54That I, myself, was also not really frank when I was looking
0:02:54 > 0:03:04myself in the mirror.
0:03:04 > 0:03:08So you were, to use that phrase, a good soldier, you followed orders
0:03:08 > 0:03:09and you did things, which...
0:03:09 > 0:03:16and I'm now asking, rather than stating.
0:03:16 > 0:03:19I'm guessing you did things which your moral conscience told
0:03:19 > 0:03:22you you should not be doing, but you did them anyway and did not
0:03:22 > 0:03:23speak out against them.
0:03:24 > 0:03:24That's true.
0:03:24 > 0:03:27I mean, I was the sergeant of a snipers team, and one
0:03:27 > 0:03:30of the team missions we carried out in Nablus, in Jenin
0:03:31 > 0:03:34or in the surrounding areas of those two cities was a mission
0:03:34 > 0:03:35that we call The Straw Widow.
0:03:35 > 0:03:38Straw Widow is when you take over a Palestinian home,
0:03:38 > 0:03:41every house in the West Bank actually has a number.
0:03:41 > 0:03:44Each and every house has a number, so we would open up the maps
0:03:45 > 0:03:48and look at the specific house that looked into the right place
0:03:48 > 0:03:51that we had to enter, a city centre or a road.
0:03:51 > 0:03:54And after, we would verify that the House has the best
0:03:54 > 0:03:56parameters, windows and geographical area, we made sure the people
0:03:56 > 0:03:58in the house were innocent.
0:03:58 > 0:04:01So we would enter the house of an innocent Palestinian home
0:04:01 > 0:04:02in the middle of the night.
0:04:02 > 0:04:05The first mission that I carried out, the adrenaline was pumping.
0:04:05 > 0:04:09The second, the third, the fourth, when it started to calm down,
0:04:09 > 0:04:11I realised I was sitting in someone's living room,
0:04:11 > 0:04:19bedroom, children's room, that was when it started to break.
0:04:19 > 0:04:21And you are dealing with people in fear?
0:04:21 > 0:04:21Constant fear.
0:04:21 > 0:04:24But I had to save the fear is two sided.
0:04:24 > 0:04:26I was also full of fear.
0:04:26 > 0:04:28But I would say that what motivated me eventually
0:04:28 > 0:04:31to break my silence was the piercing eyes of young Palestinians,
0:04:31 > 0:04:35when I was barging into their house in the middle of the night,
0:04:35 > 0:04:36I could always justify it to myself.
0:04:37 > 0:04:47But those eyes, the anger, their fear was what eventually
0:04:47 > 0:04:48helped me overcome that.
0:04:48 > 0:04:51A house of a physician in Nablus, for example, that I entered
0:04:51 > 0:04:54in the middle of the night, taking him, his wife
0:04:54 > 0:04:56and his daughter, and pushing them in a room.
0:04:57 > 0:04:59If they wanted to use their bathroom or their kitchen,
0:04:59 > 0:05:02or use their phone, they needed permission from me.
0:05:02 > 0:05:06That specific house in Nablus stayed with me for a while because that
0:05:06 > 0:05:09physician himself was kind enough and generous enough to sit down
0:05:09 > 0:05:12and explain to me what it means to be a Palestinian.
0:05:12 > 0:05:15And that experience, when I was sitting there in a house
0:05:15 > 0:05:18in Nablus made me realise what I'm actually doing as a soldier,
0:05:18 > 0:05:21to millions and millions of people, me, myself, not someone else,
0:05:21 > 0:05:22not a different unit.
0:05:22 > 0:05:25A veneer, and I thought I was a good moral soldier,
0:05:25 > 0:05:31but I was actually helping in change the occupation in that sense.
0:05:31 > 0:05:34I just want to be clear, are you saying that the very act
0:05:34 > 0:05:37of going into the house of an innocent Palestinian family,
0:05:37 > 0:05:40to you, was and is totally unacceptable, and corrosive,
0:05:40 > 0:05:42and doing serious damage to the sort of moral values
0:05:42 > 0:05:44of Israel's army and, indeed, the nation state?
0:05:45 > 0:05:48Or are you saying that that's just the tip of an iceberg of behaviour,
0:05:48 > 0:06:12much of which is much worse than that?
0:06:12 > 0:06:16Yeah, I would say that when you look at the past 50 years,
0:06:16 > 0:06:19entering the 51st year, look at the past 13 years that
0:06:19 > 0:06:20we've been collecting testimonies from soldiers,
0:06:20 > 0:06:22and you have different kinds of testimonies.
0:06:22 > 0:06:25So like the Straw Widow that I just talked about,
0:06:25 > 0:06:28I could talk about the flying checkpoint or entering houses
0:06:28 > 0:06:30for searching, or checkpoints, or making our presence felt,
0:06:30 > 0:06:32instilling fear into the Palestinian population.
0:06:32 > 0:06:34Or the actual order's war, instilling a sense that
0:06:34 > 0:06:36they're being chased, showing there's
0:06:36 > 0:06:37a new sheriff in town.
0:06:37 > 0:06:40There's a constant system...
0:06:41 > 0:06:43It's the imposition of a basic power dynamic.
0:06:43 > 0:06:45The message being, "We're in control, we're in charge
0:06:45 > 0:06:47of you and your lives, and we, in essence,
0:06:48 > 0:06:49can do what we want."
0:06:49 > 0:06:56That's true.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59And I would say, in that, you have mundane routine
0:06:59 > 0:07:00operations of just having...
0:07:00 > 0:07:03You know, standing in a checkpoint, or walking through a city centre
0:07:03 > 0:07:11or village, and you can have cases in this military occupation
0:07:11 > 0:07:13of violence, destruction of poverty, of humiliations of Palestinians.
0:07:13 > 0:07:15We've collected dozens of these testimonies.
0:07:15 > 0:07:17That's not the problem of occupation, it's a symptom.
0:07:17 > 0:07:20The problem is the idea of controlling millions of people
0:07:20 > 0:07:21by force indefinitely.
0:07:21 > 0:07:30And that's where the state of Israel is going.
0:07:30 > 0:07:32That's where the government is actually taking us,
0:07:32 > 0:07:33and indefinite military occupation.
0:07:33 > 0:07:36But this, in the end, what you're outlining as your critique
0:07:36 > 0:07:39of what is happening in Israel, and that the IDF as the agent
0:07:39 > 0:07:41of occupation is doing is essentially political.
0:07:41 > 0:07:44I mean, you're saying, if I understand you correctly,
0:07:44 > 0:07:46that the very act and policy of occupation is corroding
0:07:46 > 0:07:52Israel's value and must end.
0:07:52 > 0:07:55But the truth is, time after time, after time, the Israeli public votes
0:07:55 > 0:07:57in elections for parties which sustain and believe
0:07:58 > 0:07:58in that occupation.
0:07:58 > 0:08:18That's true, but when you look at this democracy, it's basically
0:08:18 > 0:08:21a democracy that is controlling and ruling millions of people
0:08:21 > 0:08:24that don't have a right or say in that democracy.
0:08:24 > 0:08:27So between the river and the seat, you have about 13 million people,
0:08:27 > 0:08:30where half of them do not go and elect anyone.
0:08:30 > 0:08:33So a big part of our mission, and that's where we spend,
0:08:33 > 0:08:37as Breaking The Silence, the vast majority of our
0:08:37 > 0:08:39energy and time, speaking to our fellow citizens.
0:08:39 > 0:08:41All across Israel, we're actually the leading organisation
0:08:41 > 0:08:43in the anti-occupation camp in the sheer numbers
0:08:43 > 0:08:45of people that we meet.
0:08:45 > 0:08:47But we also recognise that the houses that we entered
0:08:48 > 0:08:50were not houses of Israelis, and the occupation is not
0:08:50 > 0:08:53an internal Israeli issue, it's an issue that affects
0:08:53 > 0:08:54millions of Palestinians.
0:08:54 > 0:08:57And obviously, the international community is involved as will.
0:08:57 > 0:09:00And I want to come back to the politics of this in some
0:09:00 > 0:09:03detail, but just to stick, for now, with testimony,
0:09:03 > 0:09:05because Breaking The Silence is all about gathering together
0:09:05 > 0:09:08the voices of soldiers, former soldiers, who are no longer
0:09:08 > 0:09:10prepared to be silent about what they've seen.
0:09:10 > 0:09:13I just want you to be very clear with me about some
0:09:13 > 0:09:15of the other behaviours, because you've talked
0:09:15 > 0:09:17about the day-to-day goal routines of occupation,
0:09:17 > 0:09:19but the other behaviours, like for example, testimony
0:09:19 > 0:09:21about looting, stealing, Israeli soldiers stealing from
0:09:21 > 0:09:22inside Palestinian family homes.
0:09:22 > 0:09:25Other testimony about deliberate acts of violence, striking youths,
0:09:25 > 0:09:27striking people in their own homes, beating them.
0:09:27 > 0:09:29Also, firing rubber bullets, transgressing the limits that
0:09:29 > 0:09:33are supposed to be imposed on the firing of those bullets
0:09:33 > 0:09:35and undoing the packaging, so they do more damage.
0:09:35 > 0:09:38All of these aren't just about the routines of occupation,
0:09:38 > 0:09:42they suggest to me an army that has, within it, significant
0:09:42 > 0:09:43numbers of soldiers, who want to do bad things.
0:09:43 > 0:09:46I mean, you can choose to look at it like that.
0:09:46 > 0:09:48I think it's more complex.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51But isn't it important to be honest that there are Israeli soldiers,
0:09:51 > 0:09:55if this testimony is true, many say it's not, but if it's true,
0:09:55 > 0:09:57there are people in the IDF doing very bad things.
0:09:57 > 0:09:59Yeah, I could say more than that.
0:09:59 > 0:10:02I was one of those soldiers doing very bad things.
0:10:02 > 0:10:20I saw it with my own eyes.
0:10:20 > 0:10:21I was part of it.
0:10:21 > 0:10:31I was violent.
0:10:31 > 0:10:33And I think, in that sense, it's not about pinpointing
0:10:33 > 0:10:36a specific soldier individual, and I don't think there
0:10:36 > 0:10:38are Israeli generals waking up in the morning,
0:10:38 > 0:10:41saying, "How can I make the lives of Palestinians miserable?"
0:10:41 > 0:10:44But there is a system that for now, 51 years, is constantly thinking,
0:10:44 > 0:10:46how can we maintain the status quo?
0:10:46 > 0:10:49Or I would say , let's take it a step further,
0:10:49 > 0:10:50how can we entrench it?
0:10:51 > 0:10:53The Israeli-occupation, I think, has built in the mindset
0:10:53 > 0:10:54of the Israeli society.
0:10:54 > 0:10:56The that basically says it's a zero-sum game.
0:10:56 > 0:10:58It's either us or them.
0:10:58 > 0:11:01And in order for us to feel secure, they have do feel insecure.
0:11:01 > 0:11:04And when you have an entire army or a vast majority
0:11:04 > 0:11:07of the Israeli army, which is in charge of maintaining
0:11:07 > 0:11:09that military control, so the mission is control.
0:11:09 > 0:11:11The symptom is exactly what you talked about.
0:11:11 > 0:11:14Now, those symptoms will not disappear until we end occupation.
0:11:14 > 0:11:18But the problem is not only how you act once you enter a house,
0:11:18 > 0:11:20that's exactly why I mentioned the Straw Widow.
0:11:20 > 0:11:23Because for me, the issue is the fact that you
0:11:23 > 0:11:24can enter any house.
0:11:24 > 0:11:34It's not how you smile or treat the Palestinian in the checkpoint,
0:11:34 > 0:11:37but the fact that you can control the lives of millions and control
0:11:37 > 0:11:38these checkpoints and pass permits.
0:11:38 > 0:11:41Can you afford the luxury of this delicate conscience of yours,
0:11:41 > 0:11:44when there is, what ever you say, there is a struggle,
0:11:44 > 0:11:47a struggle which involves violence on both sides between Israel
0:11:47 > 0:11:50and the Palestinians.
0:11:50 > 0:11:50Most definitely.
0:11:51 > 0:11:52I'm not a pacifist.
0:11:52 > 0:11:54And I was shocked at, friends of mine were injured,
0:11:54 > 0:11:57soldiers of mine were injured, good friends of mine
0:11:57 > 0:12:10were killed as well.
0:12:10 > 0:12:12It's not about being naive, it's about looking forward
0:12:12 > 0:12:15and understanding, from our personal experience, that in every house,
0:12:15 > 0:12:17in every checkpoint, in every land grab, in every
0:12:17 > 0:12:19unauthorised settlement that was just approved, for example,
0:12:19 > 0:12:22by our Minister of Defence just recently, we are dooming us
0:12:22 > 0:12:25and our neighbouring Palestinians, who are not going anywhere,
0:12:25 > 0:12:26to another cycle of this.
0:12:26 > 0:12:31And in that sense, I'll just say one thing, I think that there is a very
0:12:31 > 0:12:32important distinction between a long-lasting conflict,
0:12:32 > 0:12:35the Israeli-Palestinian conflict definitely has two sides to it
0:12:35 > 0:12:36and a lot of bad blood.
0:12:36 > 0:12:38But in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, there's one issue,
0:12:39 > 0:12:40the Israeli occupation, that is one-sided.
0:12:40 > 0:12:44And it's our responsibility in sense to want to end it, and to end dit..
0:12:44 > 0:12:53But the point is, you are politicising the IDF,
0:12:53 > 0:12:56you are quite plain that you believe as a political objective,
0:12:56 > 0:12:58deep occupation must be ended.
0:12:58 > 0:13:01And yet, day-to-day, the IDF has to be people by soldiers,
0:13:01 > 0:13:03who are not political, but who loyally follow the orders
0:13:03 > 0:13:04of their commanders.
0:13:04 > 0:13:07And the chief of staff, Gadi Eisenkot, said back in May,
0:13:07 > 0:13:1126 in, he said, "The IDF soldiers must know beyond a shadow of doubt
0:13:11 > 0:13:14that the whole nation supports them and stands behind them,
0:13:14 > 0:13:16even when there are differences of political opinion."
0:13:16 > 0:13:19Yeah, I mean, I'm not here to criticise the IDF.
0:13:19 > 0:13:30Well, that's exactly what you do.
0:13:30 > 0:13:33So I'll tell you why I don't think that's what I do.
0:13:34 > 0:13:37What I do is I criticise the mission the IDF got to carry out.
0:13:37 > 0:13:40And in that sense, the problem that soldiers are facing has
0:13:40 > 0:13:42to do with the decisions of the government.
0:13:43 > 0:13:46You can be a right wing soldier or a left-wing soldier,
0:13:46 > 0:13:49but you're carrying out a mission of the most right wing, messianic,
0:13:49 > 0:13:57religious government...
0:13:57 > 0:14:00But you can't be an effective soldier if you look at your comrades
0:14:01 > 0:14:04just down the line and you know that his political views
0:14:04 > 0:14:06might lead him to say he won't do certain things,
0:14:06 > 0:14:08because it's against his moral principles.
0:14:08 > 0:14:14Armies don't work like that.
0:14:14 > 0:14:15No, you're right.
0:14:15 > 0:14:16You're right.
0:14:16 > 0:14:28But I think, more importantly, democracies don't work in a way
0:14:28 > 0:14:31where they control other people by force for so many years...
0:14:31 > 0:14:33Well, democracies generally get governments voted
0:14:33 > 0:14:35by a majority of the people.
0:14:35 > 0:14:38You have to live with the fact that your government in Israel,
0:14:38 > 0:14:40includes within it, people like Senior Minister Avigdor
0:14:40 > 0:14:43Lieberman, who has said of you and your group Breaking
0:14:43 > 0:14:54the Silence, "They are no different from," and he quoted,
0:14:55 > 0:14:57Ehud Adiv or Mordekai Wadudu, some of the most famous traitors
0:14:58 > 0:14:58in Israel's history.
0:14:58 > 0:15:01How do you feel about senior government ministers
0:15:01 > 0:15:06labelling you a traitor.
0:15:06 > 0:15:08I think it's absurd, especially when you look
0:15:08 > 0:15:11at the military record of Avigdor Lieberman per se.
0:15:11 > 0:15:14But I had to say that I always ask myself the question,
0:15:14 > 0:15:16what was the moment I became a traitor?
0:15:16 > 0:15:19Was it the moment I was standing in a house in Nablus,
0:15:19 > 0:15:23and I had a question popped into my head if I was
0:15:23 > 0:15:24doing the right thing?
0:15:24 > 0:15:28Was it on my way back to the base, when I was reading a book
0:15:28 > 0:15:30and saying, "Wow, this is actually questioning what I'm
0:15:30 > 0:15:31doing right now"?
0:15:31 > 0:15:35Or was it the discussion I had as a soldier with my family?
0:15:35 > 0:15:37This moment when former soldiers turn into traitors
0:15:37 > 0:15:39is just unacceptable, Because The Truth Of The Matter Is
0:15:40 > 0:15:42is just unacceptable, because the truth of the matter
0:15:42 > 0:15:45is that Breaking The Silence is not a group of people that served
0:15:46 > 0:15:48in the past, but there are people serving today that
0:15:48 > 0:15:49will be our testifiers.
0:15:49 > 0:15:52So in that sense, Avigdor Lieberman is calling his
0:15:52 > 0:15:52own soldiers traitors.
0:15:53 > 0:15:55There are soldiers who don't agree with his policies...
0:15:55 > 0:15:58But only a very tiny minority are influenced by you.
0:15:58 > 0:15:59The vast majority are not.
0:15:59 > 0:16:02You have, perhaps, a thousand voices gathered in Breaking The Silence,
0:16:02 > 0:16:05of the many tens and tens of thousands of Israelis,
0:16:05 > 0:16:08who over that span of time, have served in the IDF.
0:16:08 > 0:16:11It comes to the point made by another minister, Deputy Minister
0:16:11 > 0:16:13of Foreign Affairs Tzipi Hotovely, who says, "A subversive
0:16:13 > 0:16:16organisation," that is her description of you, "A subversive
0:16:16 > 0:16:18organisation based on lies that is actively trying to besmirch
0:16:18 > 0:16:21Israel's good name and that of the IDF."
0:16:21 > 0:16:22is the best example.
0:16:22 > 0:16:25Hotovely is basically calling for a de facto one state that
0:16:25 > 0:16:26will become an apartheid.
0:16:26 > 0:16:29And Hotovely is supporting not the state of Israel
0:16:29 > 0:16:31or its soldiers but the occupation.
0:16:31 > 0:16:38And what we're trying to besmirch, and we are trying to besmirch
0:16:38 > 0:16:40something, it's not Israel but the occupation itself.
0:16:40 > 0:16:44But the point is, as a citizen of Israel, you've every right
0:16:44 > 0:16:47to whatever political opinion you want to hold, but what critics
0:16:47 > 0:16:50of your organisation see is a group that actually tries to win recruits
0:16:50 > 0:16:53from the serving IDF, and which undermines the coherence,
0:16:53 > 0:16:59the unity of Israel's most important institution.
0:16:59 > 0:17:02Just this last week, we published a book of testimonies.
0:17:02 > 0:17:08I have it here.
0:17:08 > 0:17:11And we published an entire collection of soldiers that
0:17:11 > 0:17:13choose to explain why they broke their silence.
0:17:13 > 0:17:18For the past two years, there's been a smear campaign led
0:17:18 > 0:17:21from the highest echelons of the Israeli government,
0:17:21 > 0:17:23and still, soldiers choose to speak to us...
0:17:23 > 0:17:35OK, let's get real, then.
0:17:35 > 0:17:36Let's make this personal.
0:17:36 > 0:17:37You have a younger brother.
0:17:37 > 0:17:40He, I believe, is serving in the IDF today.
0:17:40 > 0:17:44That is true.
0:17:44 > 0:17:46Is he a member of your organisation?
0:17:46 > 0:17:47No, he's not.
0:17:47 > 0:17:48He's a serving soldier.
0:17:48 > 0:17:51We can have argument around the table, but he's not a member
0:17:51 > 0:17:52of Breaking The Silence.
0:17:52 > 0:17:55Your brother, I don't know which unit he's in,
0:17:55 > 0:17:58where he is serving today, but if he's in the West Bank,
0:17:58 > 0:18:01he's probably doing the sort of work you did -
0:18:01 > 0:18:03going into innocent people's houses, setting up roadblocks.
0:18:03 > 0:18:05One could say, doing everything that the occupation represents
0:18:05 > 0:18:08in terms of imposing power on the Palestinian people.
0:18:08 > 0:18:11Is your message to him that, as a man of conscience,
0:18:11 > 0:18:12he shouldn't be doing that?
0:18:12 > 0:18:15My message to him, and this is what I told him before
0:18:16 > 0:18:18he served, is that he has a responsibility to know.
0:18:18 > 0:18:20My dad was a paratrooper.
0:18:20 > 0:18:21I was a paratrooper.
0:18:21 > 0:18:27My younger brother you mentioned is, today, a paratrooper.
0:18:27 > 0:18:29In that sense, the mission of Breaking The Silence
0:18:29 > 0:18:32is not about talking about an individual decision.
0:18:32 > 0:18:36It's about the governmental decision.
0:18:36 > 0:18:39And at the end of the day, they'll continue to be brothers,
0:18:39 > 0:18:46sisters, and numbers of Israeli society that will continue to go
0:18:46 > 0:18:48and maintain this occupation, unless there is an overall political
0:18:48 > 0:18:49decision in that sense.
0:18:50 > 0:18:53To break the chain, you had to rely on individuals to act
0:18:53 > 0:18:54with their conscience.
0:18:54 > 0:18:56What do your brother and your father think
0:18:56 > 0:18:57of your stand and your message?
0:18:57 > 0:19:00I'm glad and proud that they support me...
0:19:00 > 0:19:02What about your cousins, who live, I believe,
0:19:02 > 0:19:04in Jewish settlements on occupied land in the West Bank?
0:19:05 > 0:19:07But like every other family, we have arguments,
0:19:07 > 0:19:09including relatives of mine, which I love dearly.
0:19:09 > 0:19:10And we disagree.
0:19:10 > 0:19:13You've been called a traitor, you've been called all sorts of things.
0:19:13 > 0:19:14Have you received threats?
0:19:14 > 0:19:15I have.
0:19:15 > 0:19:16How do you cope with that?
0:19:16 > 0:19:20I think that the way I cope is by looking around my fellows,
0:19:20 > 0:19:22men and women, who are part of Breaking The Silence.
0:19:22 > 0:19:24Many of them have also been threatened.
0:19:24 > 0:19:27There was actually an individual who was caught with about 20
0:19:28 > 0:19:29gallons of gasoline, trying to burn our offices.
0:19:30 > 0:19:32There were people that actively tried to attack
0:19:32 > 0:19:32us in demonstrations.
0:19:33 > 0:19:36Private phone numbers of members of our family were published online.
0:19:36 > 0:19:39It's not easy to be a Breaking The Silence member these days.
0:19:39 > 0:19:41But with that said, there is unbelievable support
0:19:41 > 0:19:42within the Israeli society.
0:19:42 > 0:19:45It's true, we're not in the heart of the Israeli
0:19:45 > 0:19:48consensus to say the least.
0:19:48 > 0:20:03No, you're not.
0:20:03 > 0:20:06You're a fringe, your an extreme, and it gets down to your
0:20:06 > 0:20:07relationship with your own country.
0:20:07 > 0:20:14Your country has repeatedly voted for governments
0:20:14 > 0:20:15which sustain the occupation.
0:20:16 > 0:20:18Currently, your prime ministers says he doesn't believe in a two
0:20:19 > 0:20:24state solution negotiated with the Palestinians.
0:20:24 > 0:20:28At what point are you going to say, "I can no longer live in this
0:20:28 > 0:20:32country, where most of the people seem to be so far removed from my
0:20:32 > 0:20:35own view of what is the right, proper and just solution
0:20:35 > 0:20:36to the conflict with the Palestinians?"
0:20:36 > 0:20:36Never.
0:20:37 > 0:20:38I'm an Israeli patriot.
0:20:38 > 0:20:41I love my country, and I will fight to make it a better place.
0:20:41 > 0:20:46The fact is that although there is a campaign against us,
0:20:46 > 0:20:49led by this current administration, there are thousands of Israelis
0:20:49 > 0:20:56who support us, including former heads of Secret Service,
0:20:56 > 0:20:58including high-ranking military generals, opinion makers, artists.
0:20:58 > 0:21:01In that sense, we are in the middle of a struggle.
0:21:01 > 0:21:04We're in the struggle for the essence of the state of Israel.
0:21:04 > 0:21:05Isn't the essence...
0:21:05 > 0:21:13Just one more point.
0:21:13 > 0:21:16I think in that sense, the fact is that the Israeli opposition,
0:21:16 > 0:21:19and the Israeli political sphere has refrained from taking a hard line
0:21:19 > 0:21:20against the occupation.
0:21:20 > 0:21:23And that's part of the reason that organisations like
0:21:23 > 0:21:28Breaking The Silence have become de facto, one of the only opposition
0:21:28 > 0:21:29is to the occupation.
0:21:29 > 0:21:37In the end, you and your case case are not winning
0:21:38 > 0:21:39the argument in Israel.
0:21:39 > 0:21:41I just wonder why you think that is.
0:21:41 > 0:21:42Why is it?
0:21:42 > 0:21:49Because most Israelis serve in the military.
0:21:49 > 0:21:52You say, oh, they're in denial, they don't want to see,
0:21:52 > 0:21:54they don't want to see the reality.
0:21:54 > 0:21:55They know the reality.
0:21:55 > 0:21:58Their sons serve, they probably served themselves in the occupation.
0:21:58 > 0:22:01They do know the reality, but they don't agree with you.
0:22:01 > 0:22:04No, but I would say this, even though I'm a minority voice,
0:22:04 > 0:22:06my responsibility is to speak out.
0:22:06 > 0:22:07Breaking The Silence is difficult exactly
0:22:07 > 0:22:15because it's against the stream.
0:22:15 > 0:22:17A deadly because it's not easy.
0:22:17 > 0:22:18We knew from the get go.
0:22:18 > 0:22:22We knew from the moment that each and every one of us broke
0:22:22 > 0:22:25the silence and spoke out, it would not be easy to access.
0:22:25 > 0:22:28But in that sense, when you look around, and when you look
0:22:28 > 0:22:31at Israeli leadership today, the only path they're leading
0:22:31 > 0:22:34us is to a destruction of the state of Israel.
0:22:34 > 0:22:37And in that sense, we might be a minority, but you cannot,
0:22:37 > 0:22:40you cannot accept to hear voices, and target them or ban them
0:22:40 > 0:22:42as legitimate or illegitimate, because the amount of people
0:22:43 > 0:22:45who support them, but because of the essence of the claim.
0:22:46 > 0:22:48And the essence of the claim of Breaking The Silence
0:22:48 > 0:22:53is that we are in the 51st year of control over people who do not
0:22:53 > 0:22:55want to be controlled by us.
0:22:55 > 0:22:59That means that our future is just more rounds of violence.
0:22:59 > 0:23:04And in that sense, we're actually actively fighting
0:23:04 > 0:23:06for their not to be a solution.
0:23:06 > 0:23:08Tzipi Hotovely, who you mentioned, Avigdor Lieberman,
0:23:08 > 0:23:11who you mentioned, who is a settler himself, by the way,
0:23:11 > 0:23:14Netanyahu is actively trying to make sure that there'll never be
0:23:14 > 0:23:15Palestinian freedom.
0:23:15 > 0:23:18There will never be any ability for Palestinians to do exactly
0:23:18 > 0:23:20what my ancestors did, create a homeland for themselves.
0:23:20 > 0:23:24In your heart, do you accept this is a battle you're not going to win?
0:23:24 > 0:23:26You can fight it, and you're determined to,
0:23:26 > 0:23:31but you're not going to win.
0:23:31 > 0:23:34I think we'll have to wait and see.
0:23:34 > 0:23:34We'll end there.
0:23:35 > 0:23:37Avner Gvaryahu, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.
0:23:37 > 0:23:38Thank you.
0:23:38 > 0:23:52Thank you.