0:00:00 > 0:00:02He has now left the Olympic village and surrendered his accreditation.
0:00:02 > 0:00:13Now on BBC News - HARDTalk.
0:00:13 > 0:00:21To the talk, Stephen Sackur and this is unique, a city emblematic of
0:00:21 > 0:00:27Germany's prosperity and small seed servitors. But right now, German
0:00:27 > 0:00:33politics looks anything but steady, stable and ready to bolster the
0:00:33 > 0:00:38Angela Merkel's new grand coalition with the Social Democrats is very
0:00:38 > 0:00:41fragile and the biggest opposition party is the far right alternative
0:00:41 > 0:00:50for Deutschland. My guest today is the influential AfD MP, Peter
0:00:50 > 0:00:54Boehringer. So how will his party try to exploit the weakness of
0:00:54 > 0:01:01Angela Merkel?
0:01:14 > 0:01:19Peter Boehringer, welcome to HARDtalk.Thank you for having me.
0:01:19 > 0:01:23Let's start with a big picture of German politics today. In some ways,
0:01:23 > 0:01:28nothing much has changed. Here we are again facing a grand coalition
0:01:28 > 0:01:34led a Angela Merkel with the Christian Democrats and the gas PTT
0:01:34 > 0:01:43together. But actually, things quite different this time? Ashok 's PTT.
0:01:43 > 0:01:48We do not have that coalition. We will have that pretty soon. Having
0:01:48 > 0:01:53said that, I would agree that it is no longer the same, we now have a
0:01:53 > 0:01:59coalition of official losers, both the SPD and the CDU of Angela Merkel
0:01:59 > 0:02:03have lost more than have been present at the general election last
0:02:03 > 0:02:07autumn and in the meantime they have lost even more, you could say they
0:02:07 > 0:02:12have lost more than 20% of the votes in 2013. It is a different situation
0:02:12 > 0:02:18absolutely.What is your strategy in the AfD? Will you be looking for
0:02:18 > 0:02:23spoil was looking for a fight or will you try to be construct a? You
0:02:23 > 0:02:30are now, in essence, the biggest opposition party.We are. But
0:02:30 > 0:02:34fighting is not an end in its own right, of course. We are not
0:02:34 > 0:02:37fighting just for the sake of fighting, we are fighting for
0:02:37 > 0:02:43bringing Germany back on a legal track where laws are not violated
0:02:43 > 0:02:49all the time, especially when it comes to Europe rescue and the
0:02:49 > 0:02:53border controls and immigration. So we are trying to bring back a little
0:02:53 > 0:02:59bit more direct democracy that is that people have the say in the
0:02:59 > 0:03:05Bundestag began, which they didn't have for a long time. -- again.Your
0:03:05 > 0:03:09bedfellows in the Europe are, I guess, the National front in France,
0:03:09 > 0:03:16the Austrian Freedom party, yet builders party in the Netherlands.
0:03:16 > 0:03:21Many people in your country and across the continent are
0:03:21 > 0:03:24extraordinarily worried about the power and influence you can now
0:03:24 > 0:03:32wield.Actually, we are late comers. In Germany, it is very late that
0:03:32 > 0:03:36Germany has come up with a central right new party sticking to the
0:03:36 > 0:03:43values and virtues that were normal in Europe up until the 1990s and
0:03:43 > 0:03:47thousands.You are not centre-right, you are far right. I have listed
0:03:47 > 0:03:52your bedfellows, they are all far right, many people would say
0:03:52 > 0:03:56extremist parties.I would have to look into each and every one of
0:03:56 > 0:04:00them, it is completely different from Marine Le Pen and from the
0:04:00 > 0:04:05Austrian right, that is properly going too find our.In what way are
0:04:05 > 0:04:12you completely different?-- now. In my personal opinion, I haven't
0:04:12 > 0:04:17changed my political opinion in 20, 30, 40 years at all. I stick to a
0:04:17 > 0:04:21world where the natural state was the natural state of affairs and
0:04:21 > 0:04:27nobody disputed that. No party, we have a programme and I was a member
0:04:27 > 0:04:33of the programme condition that the CDU had up until 2005 and even the
0:04:33 > 0:04:39SPD had in the 1990s. We are not extremists, we do not change,
0:04:39 > 0:04:45society has changed and especially the immediate perception. -- media
0:04:45 > 0:04:51perception.I am not talking about media perception, I am talking about
0:04:51 > 0:04:55perceptions of people. A former president of the Council of German
0:04:55 > 0:05:01Jews. She describes your party, the AfD, as a struck the power which
0:05:01 > 0:05:06endangers democracy.I don't know what crystal ball she has but she
0:05:06 > 0:05:11cannot see in the future if she has the evidence whatsoever...She is
0:05:11 > 0:05:15judging you on the words of your senior party members.You can always
0:05:15 > 0:05:20put individual words out of context, I do not see it in that way. Our
0:05:20 > 0:05:25programme is not radical at all and I would say it is blue joie in the
0:05:25 > 0:05:31positive sense of the word.We need to question against words that
0:05:31 > 0:05:36senior leaders have said the.You would need to put that into context,
0:05:36 > 0:05:42it seems that has not been done. Your main opposition, let's see if
0:05:42 > 0:05:50the tone is changing. One of your senior figures...He is always
0:05:50 > 0:05:58quoted, even though he is not a senior figure.He is. Is one of 16
0:05:58 > 0:06:02regional figures.He is quoted all of the time. Maybe you know what I
0:06:02 > 0:06:05will ask you. Whether you now distance yourself from his comments
0:06:05 > 0:06:11when he described the Holocaust memorial window when as a monument
0:06:11 > 0:06:14of shame and he should have suggested that Germany should not
0:06:14 > 0:06:19have put it up and no other nation should have.He put it like that and
0:06:19 > 0:06:23it is a memorial of shame, one of the worst routes of German history
0:06:23 > 0:06:29and...You know what he meant. He meant it was a shame that it had
0:06:29 > 0:06:36been erected.It was a shame, I am not sure what he meant when he said
0:06:36 > 0:06:40that no other country would put up a memorial for the worst period in its
0:06:40 > 0:06:44history. I wouldn't have put it in that way but that is what he meant.
0:06:44 > 0:06:48The last one on this style, it is important to find out whether now
0:06:48 > 0:06:51that you are the biggest opposition party that your language is going to
0:06:51 > 0:06:56change. As a party I will quote you Stefan. He is important because now
0:06:56 > 0:07:02as an MP he will be the chair of the judicial committee. He referred to
0:07:02 > 0:07:07the Green Party as child molesters and cocaine is. He has been
0:07:07 > 0:07:10suspended from his regional parliament because of his outrageous
0:07:10 > 0:07:17behaviour. Is it, do you think, why is to put him into a position such
0:07:17 > 0:07:21as committee chairman of the judiciary committee?It was not my
0:07:21 > 0:07:27decision, it was the decision of others, the elder Council of the
0:07:27 > 0:07:32Bundestag. They put him in that position. Nobody disagreed, not even
0:07:32 > 0:07:38the left or the Greens themselves, and a one disagreed, it was only at
0:07:38 > 0:07:42the initial meeting of that committee that it was disputed for
0:07:42 > 0:07:47whatever reasons. This is the first time it has happened in 60 years in
0:07:47 > 0:07:52German history, saying for me. For no reason at all we have seen former
0:07:52 > 0:07:57Nazis in the 1950s had those parties, we have seen the former
0:07:57 > 0:08:03communist in the 1990s. Nobody was ever disputed and some people who
0:08:03 > 0:08:07got a Phuc Alls in regional parliaments and me, who did nothing
0:08:07 > 0:08:12at all basically, were disputed just because we were AfD members. This is
0:08:12 > 0:08:17the treatment the AfD is receiving all the time.Let you put it this
0:08:17 > 0:08:22way, do you accept that the party is going to have to change and part of
0:08:22 > 0:08:25that change is going to be a different style, tone and language
0:08:25 > 0:08:29and maybe some members of the party who were senior figures in the past
0:08:29 > 0:08:34will not be in the future?Yes, I will agree there. That is normal
0:08:34 > 0:08:38with every party. We have had the come professional but ultimately you
0:08:38 > 0:08:43have to understand that the tone and the brutality is only a reaction
0:08:43 > 0:08:48from outside against the brutality of the ruling class. All the time,
0:08:48 > 0:08:54it is us who give people who are really furious about developments in
0:08:54 > 0:09:01Europe and German elite -- Germany, a voice. Especially if you are not
0:09:01 > 0:09:06in a parliamentary position, which we had been up to 2014, that you
0:09:06 > 0:09:10have to use a little stronger language, all opposition parties
0:09:10 > 0:09:15have done that in the past.Yes, but you can't excuse some of the things
0:09:15 > 0:09:20said by figures in your party.I don't want to excuse everything.
0:09:20 > 0:09:25Let's talk of substance. That stalk about immigration and integration
0:09:25 > 0:09:29policy in Germany today and let me quote you the words of a very senior
0:09:29 > 0:09:34figure in your party. Who got into an argument very recently with the
0:09:34 > 0:09:43German Commissioner for integration, who has Turkish ethnic roots. She
0:09:43 > 0:09:47had said in a newspaper article that a specifically German culture beyond
0:09:47 > 0:09:54the language is not identifiable. To which he said, this is what a German
0:09:54 > 0:10:00Turk says, let's invite her to a shelled and tell her specifically
0:10:00 > 0:10:03what German culture is and afterwards she will never come back
0:10:03 > 0:10:09and we will be able to dispose of her in Anatolia.Probably need is a
0:10:09 > 0:10:14German would have two explain what he means because I don't understand.
0:10:14 > 0:10:18In the translation I get the tone and sense of what he is trying to
0:10:18 > 0:10:26say. Is that except double? To dispose of her?I don't even know of
0:10:26 > 0:10:32the word, is it acceptable that the woman who is aware of that that the
0:10:32 > 0:10:36integration of the government is not deceive or recognise any German
0:10:36 > 0:10:41culture. How can you integrate into something which does not exist? That
0:10:41 > 0:10:44is but she started out with and this is a perfect example that our
0:10:44 > 0:10:48reaction is just, I would say, adequate.She is from Hamburg and
0:10:48 > 0:10:56fully German.Of this issue doesn't feel like it! -- obviously.As a
0:10:56 > 0:11:01citizen, she has a right to an opinion. The integration will judge
0:11:01 > 0:11:07her on her time in office. Your leader is basically saying that they
0:11:07 > 0:11:12will dispose of her in Anatolia. A senior figure of ACTU said that this
0:11:12 > 0:11:19language...They do not need to get rid of her somehow.Senior figures
0:11:19 > 0:11:23on the conservative Right said that the language is disgusting and
0:11:23 > 0:11:27dehumanising. Why would you say that too?I would say the policy of the
0:11:27 > 0:11:31coalition government by including him, is discussed double and has
0:11:31 > 0:11:38been discussed double four decades now and we are reacting and giving
0:11:38 > 0:11:45those who are disgusted voice.I want to talk about that. On the
0:11:45 > 0:11:48specifics of immigration policy, what we have seen today is that
0:11:48 > 0:11:52there is a significant number of people coming into Germany on those
0:11:52 > 0:11:58immigration flows from the East. The numbers were extraordinary, we know
0:11:58 > 0:12:02that many more than 1 million came in that period after 2015 but in the
0:12:02 > 0:12:11last year the figures suggest 187,000 came in compare to 280,020
0:12:11 > 0:12:1616, far down from the peak in 2015. So it does appear that the policies
0:12:16 > 0:12:19adopted by Angela Merkel's government in the last year or two
0:12:19 > 0:12:27have very much reduced the inflow, would you accept that?It is a
0:12:27 > 0:12:31relative comparison. Comparing it to the levels of 2015, which were
0:12:31 > 0:12:36suicidal to any society. We had abandoned our borders at the time.
0:12:36 > 0:12:41Imagine that. I am asking you that now in the current situation, where
0:12:41 > 0:12:44the government has changed policy and the numbers are down, what would
0:12:44 > 0:12:49you do that is different from the Angela Merkel government today?If
0:12:49 > 0:12:54you don't interrupt me, I can finalise my sentence. She invited
0:12:54 > 0:12:58everybody in September two, 2015 are basically officially saying we are
0:12:58 > 0:13:05abandoning our borders, our police, the head of the German police wanted
0:13:05 > 0:13:12that order in writing. It was an executive order, no law was changed.
0:13:12 > 0:13:19But officially abandoning our order and the word spread in Africa and
0:13:19 > 0:13:27Arabia. We would stop that, stop that invitation. Now it has not
0:13:27 > 0:13:30stopped, absolutely, the official number that the government itself
0:13:30 > 0:13:37admits to is 220,000, not counting families of those refugees. We are
0:13:37 > 0:13:41talking about more than 500,000 people, illegal immigrants still.
0:13:41 > 0:13:47This is the current number. Whatever numbers you have are not right and
0:13:47 > 0:13:51Angela Merkel has not stopped it. That is why her polls are falling
0:13:51 > 0:13:56dramatically.What do you do? You and Schengen, the three movement on
0:13:56 > 0:14:00people within the EU and do you also put up walls? I am not clear what
0:14:00 > 0:14:06the AfD would do.We would not have to do that. We were stopped at
0:14:06 > 0:14:11invitation officially and seriously and ring back, even by force, a view
0:14:11 > 0:14:15of those illegal immigrants and even if you only dealt with a couple
0:14:15 > 0:14:18thousand seriously that word would also spread into Africa and Arabia
0:14:18 > 0:14:26and that mass influx would stop immediately.To what extent is this
0:14:26 > 0:14:30about Muslims in particular? I notice you have a policy to ban
0:14:30 > 0:14:35foreign funding in mosques in Germany, to ban the Burke, the
0:14:35 > 0:14:40full-bodied veil. We are not the only ones. And the Muslims call to
0:14:40 > 0:14:44prayer, put imams through vigorous state betting. This petty say that
0:14:44 > 0:14:49many Muslim Germans, this deal is like some sort of war and their
0:14:49 > 0:14:56religion?You could argue who started that war as well. But yes, I
0:14:56 > 0:15:02would say, statistically, 85% of that immigration is Muslims and it
0:15:02 > 0:15:10is mainly Sunni Muslims, you could say it is also an Islamic problem in
0:15:10 > 0:15:14our point of view. But it is not only that. Abandoning its borders
0:15:14 > 0:15:18would even be wrong if only Scandinavians came and headed up
0:15:18 > 0:15:24into Germany. It is always a case, always a problem. And so, well, what
0:15:24 > 0:15:32you have just elaborated or numbered is not totally true. We except the
0:15:32 > 0:15:38legal right to private confession of religious freedom, if you want,
0:15:38 > 0:15:43article format of our Constitution. We accepted that it is disputes that
0:15:43 > 0:15:49the Muslims have a right to pray in private and public but the right to
0:15:49 > 0:15:53put Sharia law of a sickly or law and that is what many Muslims are
0:15:53 > 0:16:00fortunately are doing, especially Muslims groups.
0:16:00 > 0:16:06You have a background in economics and business. Are you comfortable
0:16:06 > 0:16:10that these days the AfD seems to find its strongest support and,
0:16:10 > 0:16:15indeed, it is made in raison d'etre in anti-immigration policies rather
0:16:15 > 0:16:21than the more technocratic anti- eurozone stands that actually the
0:16:21 > 0:16:31party began with?Nobody can really say why people vote for us. At least
0:16:31 > 0:16:4150% of the voters still vote for the anti- euro reasons I stand for.That
0:16:41 > 0:16:49is what I find interesting whether you are comfortable...Islam and
0:16:49 > 0:16:57especially the Islam of the strong religious people, Muslims, is
0:16:57 > 0:17:04antiliberal, it is against women's rights and liberal rights. It is a
0:17:04 > 0:17:09fight for freedom, actually. It does not contradict in any way our fight
0:17:09 > 0:17:16for freedom that we have against the euro rest you and the EU in total.
0:17:16 > 0:17:20You cannot sift this around and say that this is a minor group of our
0:17:20 > 0:17:27electorate and, well... Whatever you call them, nationalists or Patriot
0:17:27 > 0:17:32are the majority of our voters. You now have an important position in
0:17:32 > 0:17:39the German Parliament.You chaired the committee on the budget. That
0:17:39 > 0:17:47gives you real power and influence. How will you use it?It is the
0:17:47 > 0:17:52moderator 's role, a symbolic role if you will. Committee where I only
0:17:52 > 0:18:01represent a minority. I will be at over voted frequently.You are the
0:18:01 > 0:18:07chair. You can shape the agenda and have influence. It comes back to my
0:18:07 > 0:18:12original question about how the actor Max sees itself today in a
0:18:12 > 0:18:18fluid or the cool situation. Will you push hard on issues such as the
0:18:18 > 0:18:22future eurozone bailouts and the ambition that Germany and France
0:18:22 > 0:18:25appear to have to go into a much deeper fiscal integration. Will you
0:18:25 > 0:18:31do your utmost to block that?I would love to. But the bulk of money
0:18:31 > 0:18:35that was taken into the hands of the European Union to permanently rescue
0:18:35 > 0:18:41the euro, every day, that does not appear on our budget. It is not on
0:18:41 > 0:18:44the official German budget because it is money coming from the European
0:18:44 > 0:18:52Central bank. The German government especially but it is not
0:18:52 > 0:18:58automatically part of my budget. Were talking sums that exceed these
0:18:58 > 0:19:01huge budget, more than 20 billion a year and it does not even appear.
0:19:01 > 0:19:05This is one of the scandals of this budget because the money comes from
0:19:05 > 0:19:09Europe. It is European tax money from European citizens, especially
0:19:09 > 0:19:15German ones.I understand that the AfD really does not like away the
0:19:15 > 0:19:18eurozone works and wishes that the Deutschmark could be rest restored
0:19:18 > 0:19:24to Germany. Would you go further? Would you want Germany to leave the
0:19:24 > 0:19:28EU? Do you look at Brexit and think that that is something that we want
0:19:28 > 0:19:33and need in Germany as well?I am sympathetic towards the British who
0:19:33 > 0:19:42voted for Brexit. However, the world did not go under in Britain just
0:19:42 > 0:19:52because you left or are about to leave. So those prophecies that the
0:19:52 > 0:19:56world would end if Britain left did not come true. Having said that,...
0:19:56 > 0:20:04Yes. Do you think the German public has there been -- has any interest
0:20:04 > 0:20:09in leaving the EU?They would if they knew how much money had been
0:20:09 > 0:20:14spent on the euro rescue. But whether AfD existed or not, the euro
0:20:14 > 0:20:21would have a natural end of life. It is an unnatural currency and one
0:20:21 > 0:20:25that has to be rescued every day is no currency. It is a contradiction
0:20:25 > 0:20:30in terms. It is a crash that will happen, it will happen in any case
0:20:30 > 0:20:35and if we wait too along with that decision then the Euro can really
0:20:35 > 0:20:42become a question of war and peace. I saw some opinion polls that showed
0:20:42 > 0:20:48the EU and the AfD, having won just short of 13% in the last election,
0:20:48 > 0:20:52now stand at 15% in the latest national polls.Do you see yourself
0:20:52 > 0:20:58in the long-term becoming sup, somehow becoming partners of a post-
0:20:58 > 0:21:04Merkel Conservative Party in Germany or do you see yourselves replacing
0:21:04 > 0:21:12that coalition?That is a question that is being heavily discussed in
0:21:12 > 0:21:17our party. Today, no-one wants to be in a coalition with us and we do not
0:21:17 > 0:21:21want to be in a coalition because they follow that supra-
0:21:21 > 0:21:28nationalistic agenda which we do not accept. We follow a planned central
0:21:28 > 0:21:35economic policy, which we do not accept. Today we cannot do a
0:21:35 > 0:21:41coalition. Things do change and I think they will change quickly. AfD
0:21:41 > 0:21:46works today from the opposition lines into the government lines and
0:21:46 > 0:21:49if the leading class of those parties is being replaced then it
0:21:49 > 0:21:55will happen quickly. Then maybe we have a different situation. These
0:21:55 > 0:22:01parties will have to become, will have to accept the very idea of the
0:22:01 > 0:22:09nationstate again, which they have abandoned. Good election results are
0:22:09 > 0:22:14only the result of us sticking to that idea.Ultimately, and we should
0:22:14 > 0:22:21not forget this, your party scored 12.6% in the last election. I am
0:22:21 > 0:22:25telling you that your poll standing now may be as high as 15% but that
0:22:25 > 0:22:30is a very long way from becoming the biggest party in Germany. If you are
0:22:30 > 0:22:34to do that all really gather political momentum, it seems to me
0:22:34 > 0:22:37that you may have to consider changing some of your core messages
0:22:37 > 0:22:42and your style and your tone, particularly on issues concerning
0:22:42 > 0:22:46immigration, the German was on community and reaching out in a way
0:22:46 > 0:22:51that you have refused and failed to do thus far to show that you are not
0:22:51 > 0:22:56a racist party. How will you do that?I do not recognise your
0:22:56 > 0:23:00analysis did it we are not racist. That is ridiculous and a false
0:23:00 > 0:23:07allegation. We are not racist. Islam is not a race. So being critics of
0:23:07 > 0:23:13Islam does not make you a racist. That is ridiculous. We have nothing
0:23:13 > 0:23:16against foreigners, not at all but we have something against illegal
0:23:16 > 0:23:24people in our country who have no reason whatsoever. This is true in a
0:23:24 > 0:23:29strict legal sense for 98% of those who've come since 2015. We need to
0:23:29 > 0:23:33change a little bit and we need to change the tone. We need to be more
0:23:33 > 0:23:38professional but compared to 2013 when we were, in your words, a not
0:23:38 > 0:23:46so radical party, we have even gained, while the major parties have
0:23:46 > 0:23:51lost 20% in just four years. If you repeat that in another four years
0:23:51 > 0:23:57than we have a majority.We will see what happens then. You really think
0:23:57 > 0:24:01your party are the future of Germany?I am not predicting that
0:24:01 > 0:24:05but that is what we are looking for. Thank you very much for being an
0:24:05 > 0:24:07HARDtalk.