0:00:00 > 0:00:03in the UK on Tuesday.
0:00:03 > 0:00:09It has just gone half past four in the morning. It is now time for
0:00:09 > 0:00:13HARDtalk.
0:00:13 > 0:00:19Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. There is something
0:00:19 > 0:00:23distressing about the revelations of sexual explication and gross
0:00:23 > 0:00:30misconduct inside one of the world's best known humanitarian aid
0:00:30 > 0:00:36organisations. Oxfam is at the centre of a storm of investigations.
0:00:36 > 0:00:42Now the entire aid sector is under scrutiny for safeguarding failures
0:00:42 > 0:00:48which appear to go back decades. My guess is Amira Malik Miller. She is
0:00:48 > 0:00:52an experienced aid worker who experienced misconduct first hand
0:00:52 > 0:00:59and is now prepared to speak out. So what went wrong and why? -- my
0:00:59 > 0:01:30guest. Amira Malik Miller, welcome to HARDtalk.Thank you. You work for
0:01:30 > 0:01:35the Swedish government.But how expensive is your experience of aid
0:01:35 > 0:01:41work in the field?I worked in the humanitarian assistance sector for
0:01:41 > 0:01:45over 15 years. I have been based in Liberia and West Africa. I have done
0:01:45 > 0:01:51a lot of work in Sudan. I have travelled extensively. I have had a
0:01:51 > 0:01:56lot of experience and travelled extensively and covered some of the
0:01:56 > 0:02:02world's biggest humanitarian crises over the past 15 years.Now you know
0:02:02 > 0:02:09there is a huge amount of scrutiny on the humanitarian aid sector
0:02:09 > 0:02:16because of revelations, allegations of serious sexual misconduct,
0:02:16 > 0:02:19harassment, exploitative behaviour, and the revelations focused on
0:02:19 > 0:02:24Haiti. But now we're hearing of other allegations in other places.
0:02:24 > 0:02:31When this story broke in few days go, were you surprised?I was
0:02:31 > 0:02:35shocked when I first saw the headlines, because I recognise the
0:02:35 > 0:02:41man who was on those photos. And I felt it was very unfair the way that
0:02:41 > 0:02:48Oxfam was betrayed. Because I knew that I had part one and part two of
0:02:48 > 0:02:53that story. And I felt it was unfair. But I was not shocked. I
0:02:53 > 0:03:00knew that this was going on and so I felt that I needed to say something.
0:03:00 > 0:03:05Many aid workers have actually found it very difficult to speak out. Many
0:03:05 > 0:03:08have spoken anonymously. You have chosen to go public with us. So I
0:03:08 > 0:03:14think we need to go into a little bit of detail about your experience
0:03:14 > 0:03:20with one particular individual who, as you say, has now been named. The
0:03:20 > 0:03:25allegations surrounding him and his work with Oxfam in Haiti. But let's
0:03:25 > 0:03:30go back to Liberia. Was it 2004?It was 2004. This was really my first
0:03:30 > 0:03:36job. I was excited and grateful. I had been out before previously on
0:03:36 > 0:03:42trainee positions in Sudan. But this was my first real job after
0:03:42 > 0:03:47graduating and is doing a masters. I'd been working in development and
0:03:47 > 0:03:52human rights. They really want to get into human rights- the
0:03:52 > 0:03:56humanitarian assistance sector. I got a job with Miller, an agency in
0:03:56 > 0:04:08Britain.-- Merlin. How old were you at the time?I was 24 at the time, I
0:04:08 > 0:04:14think.So you go out and meet your colleagues from Merlin. What they
0:04:14 > 0:04:19generally older, and where they generally male?Not all of them, but
0:04:19 > 0:04:23the senior management team absolutely were. But not all of
0:04:23 > 0:04:28them. There were other female staff, others in my age group, as well, but
0:04:28 > 0:04:32I was in the most junior position. I had gone out after having been
0:04:32 > 0:04:37briefed in London. I heard it a few whispers of things happening in
0:04:37 > 0:04:40Liberia. I made it clear during those chats that that was not
0:04:40 > 0:04:46something that I would be OK with if it happened, and if it was to do
0:04:46 > 0:04:50with sexual misconduct. I went out and was met by this individual at
0:04:50 > 0:04:57the airport.And I think we need to name him, he is a Belgian national,
0:04:57 > 0:05:04called Roland van Hauwermeiren. Right.Now, it was he the director
0:05:04 > 0:05:09of operations in Liberia at the time?It was the country director.
0:05:09 > 0:05:15My job was partly to be his assistant but also to be a grants
0:05:15 > 0:05:19manager. I shared an office with them and so I knew his schedule and
0:05:19 > 0:05:23so on. He picked me up from the airport, which Apple was a little
0:05:23 > 0:05:34bit odd. But it was a nice chat and so on. -- which I thought was. He
0:05:34 > 0:05:38did a phone call and I thought they were talking about me. There was
0:05:38 > 0:05:43something said about a green light. I did not reflect so much on that at
0:05:43 > 0:05:47that particular moment, but I have since. I felt that he was checking
0:05:47 > 0:05:54out, see what kind of person I was, and would I be a problem...A
0:05:54 > 0:05:57problem in what sense? Taking exception to his behaviour?
0:05:57 > 0:06:02Possibly.Because I think we need to talk about what the heavies you saw
0:06:02 > 0:06:08from him and other members of the Merlin NGOs staff on the ground in
0:06:08 > 0:06:14Liberia. Because this individual has since been connected to events in
0:06:14 > 0:06:20Haiti. -- Merlin NGO.What I saw was not him. It was another member of
0:06:20 > 0:06:23staff. And we were living in two different compounds then. I was
0:06:23 > 0:06:31living in one called London. In most of the staff were living there. He
0:06:31 > 0:06:39was living in another compound with one or two other staff members,
0:06:39 > 0:06:42Roland van Hauwermeiren. I got up one morning and went into the
0:06:42 > 0:06:46kitchen. There were other people around as well. I went into the
0:06:46 > 0:06:53kitchen and found one of the senior staff members there with quite young
0:06:53 > 0:06:58Liberian girl. -- quite a young labour and gold. I do know she was
0:06:58 > 0:07:03over 16 or 18, but possibly. What I saw was something I was
0:07:03 > 0:07:07uncomfortable with and I did not think was appropriate. And I
0:07:07 > 0:07:12confronted a person there. -- quite a young Liberian girl. There was a
0:07:12 > 0:07:17lot of touching and so on. I thought that was inappropriate and went
0:07:17 > 0:07:20against our code of conduct. And that is why I confronted that men
0:07:20 > 0:07:23straightaway, and why I then, the following Monday, broke into head
0:07:23 > 0:07:32office and said " This has happened and I am not coupled with this, and
0:07:32 > 0:07:38I expect you to do something". -- I am not comfortable with this. And
0:07:38 > 0:07:46they did. They got back and checked on it and said somebody was coming
0:07:46 > 0:07:51back quickly, and somebody did. I felt supported. It took about ten
0:07:51 > 0:08:00days to come down with a team from London HQ to investigate it. At that
0:08:00 > 0:08:05point, well previous...Did you confront your direct boss, Roland
0:08:05 > 0:08:11van Hauwermeiren. What did you say to him?I did us anything to him at
0:08:11 > 0:08:17that time. There were about three or four men involved in this, I
0:08:17 > 0:08:21thought. They suspected that I had reported it, but they went short.
0:08:21 > 0:08:24They knew that a team was coming down from London.Did you believe
0:08:24 > 0:08:28the local girls were prostitutes that you saw?I believed that there
0:08:28 > 0:08:35was some sort of something that was definitely an imbalance of power. I
0:08:35 > 0:08:40don't think there would have been there just out of wanting to be
0:08:40 > 0:08:45there. I think that they were expecting something. Whether it was
0:08:45 > 0:08:49paid sex or not, I have no proof. I certainly felt that it was
0:08:49 > 0:08:53inappropriate and went against the rules, our code of conduct, our
0:08:53 > 0:08:57security rules and so on, at that point. It was still very strict,
0:08:57 > 0:09:02then. In Liberia, this was just after the civil war, of course. What
0:09:02 > 0:09:06I wanted to say is that the time that it took the London team to come
0:09:06 > 0:09:11down, these individuals absolutely worked on me. I was under
0:09:11 > 0:09:15surveillance, almost. Someone was almost always with me, and they had
0:09:15 > 0:09:20private chats to me, and try to make out that this was not something odd,
0:09:20 > 0:09:24that it was normal, and that they had not done anything wrong, and so
0:09:24 > 0:09:33on.Did you feel from that moment that there was a sense of
0:09:33 > 0:09:36entitlement? That they were in a tough location, doing a tough job,
0:09:36 > 0:09:42and consorting that as I would sound flippant, but I don't know the right
0:09:42 > 0:09:46word. But having sex with young women on location, could be seem to
0:09:46 > 0:09:53feel that they were entitled to do that?Hard to tell. But they try to
0:09:53 > 0:09:58make it sound normal and something to expect and something that I was
0:09:58 > 0:10:04being silly to react against. Absolutely.You were a whistleblower
0:10:04 > 0:10:08in a way. Did you feel intimidated that they were with these members of
0:10:08 > 0:10:12staff and they were clearly worried that you were blowing the whistle on
0:10:12 > 0:10:15their activities back to head office? Was that intimidating?A
0:10:15 > 0:10:20little bit. I never felt afraid, but is because I was so young. I don't
0:10:20 > 0:10:25know. But I didn't. I felt watched. But there were other people around
0:10:25 > 0:10:33that I could confide in that have later become so because -- that have
0:10:33 > 0:10:38later become so my closest friends. I did not feel that way, but I
0:10:38 > 0:10:43definitely felt that I had to - well, I felt that they were trained
0:10:43 > 0:10:48to convince me that nothing had happened, and that I was
0:10:48 > 0:10:52overreacting. -- they were trying to convince me. So where to buy time
0:10:52 > 0:10:56and waited for the investigation team.There was no huge drama, but
0:10:56 > 0:11:01as the result of the team coming in to Liberia, Mr Roland van
0:11:01 > 0:11:07Hauwermeiren was removed from the location, I believe. I think he
0:11:07 > 0:11:13ended his work with Merlin at that time.Yes. And then other people
0:11:13 > 0:11:17stepped out and said that what they had seen and came forward with that
0:11:17 > 0:11:24information, and so what happened was, unfortunately, he was - he
0:11:24 > 0:11:29could go on his own. He probably offered to resign and could go
0:11:29 > 0:11:34quietly. The others could stay. One had to - the wonder they confronted
0:11:34 > 0:11:39had to give me a personal, face-to-face apology, but then could
0:11:39 > 0:11:44continue his contract and go on. So I guess at that point I was
0:11:44 > 0:11:48disappointed, and maybe starting to doubt that they had done the - not
0:11:48 > 0:11:51that I had done the right thing, but started to think that I had
0:11:51 > 0:11:57overacted a little bit, and this was something... But at that point did
0:11:57 > 0:12:04not think that they would get jobs again. Interesting. Because in
0:12:04 > 0:12:07essence, the degree to which Mr Roland van Hauwermeiren was able to
0:12:07 > 0:12:14make a career in the international NGOs world, despite having had this
0:12:14 > 0:12:23problem with Merlin, at which point he had to leave a job under a cloud.
0:12:23 > 0:12:29-- NGO. But then we see that he appeared in Chad working for Oxfam,
0:12:29 > 0:12:34and in a strange quizzes, you were working for the development agency
0:12:34 > 0:12:41that were approached by Oxfam for some funding. You saw that this
0:12:41 > 0:12:48Belgian individual was in charge of the particular mission in Chad, and
0:12:48 > 0:12:51you want your superiors that this was not selling that Sweden should
0:12:51 > 0:12:58be putting their money into. And yet Sweden did.£750,000. Right. So what
0:12:58 > 0:13:02happened there is a lack of the proposal on my desk and I reacted
0:13:02 > 0:13:06because I saw very quickly that he was the country director. I went to
0:13:06 > 0:13:09my then boss, the head of the humanitarian assistance unit, who
0:13:09 > 0:13:13reacted immediately, and was appalled. He took me straight to the
0:13:13 > 0:13:18legal team, and I remember several meetings with the legal team.They
0:13:18 > 0:13:24all reacted in the way that I would expect them to. They could very
0:13:24 > 0:13:27seriously and were appalled and wanted to do something about it.
0:13:27 > 0:13:33Again, I felt listens to, despite the fact that I was in a junior
0:13:33 > 0:13:38position and was new to the development agency. I felt that I
0:13:38 > 0:13:45was supported and listen to. By the reaction I got from both of my --
0:13:45 > 0:13:49both my boss at the time and the legal department, I felt that was
0:13:49 > 0:13:53reported. But I would not be surprised now if it was not.But
0:13:53 > 0:14:00they still divided to put money into the Chad project. -- Pistol decided.
0:14:00 > 0:14:04But here is an individual who is now establishing a reputation among some
0:14:04 > 0:14:08who have worked with him, and yet there is no red flag against his
0:14:08 > 0:14:12name. And so if we move on from Chad and get to Haiti, where this story,
0:14:12 > 0:14:17in recent days, has come to a head, here, again, is Mr Roland van
0:14:17 > 0:14:22Hauwermeiren, who is now country director of Oxfam's operations after
0:14:22 > 0:14:26the earthquake in 2011. They really big job and a huge amount of
0:14:26 > 0:14:31pressure. And again, what we now know is that Oxfam were faced with a
0:14:31 > 0:14:37plethora of allegations of staff procuring prostitutes, parties in
0:14:37 > 0:14:43Oxfam accommodation, other allegations concerning pornography,
0:14:43 > 0:14:47harassment of staff, and bullying, with its individual at the centre of
0:14:47 > 0:14:52it, yet again.
0:14:55 > 0:15:00That is unfortunate, there are two different questions. Is it wrong for
0:15:00 > 0:15:07donors to donate? In some respects, maybe, but it should be thoroughly
0:15:07 > 0:15:11assessed and reported, of course. But that programme could still have
0:15:11 > 0:15:19been a very vital programme. As Merlyn's were in Liberia, it was
0:15:19 > 0:15:22supporting half of the country 's healthcare and so I wouldn't argue
0:15:22 > 0:15:28for cutting funding to good critical humanitarian response programme.
0:15:28 > 0:15:37That is an interesting point.In Haiti, what we have is Oxfam, it the
0:15:37 > 0:15:41end, it appears, covering up the truth about what had happened in
0:15:41 > 0:15:46their mission to stop it again, I am interested to know whether all of
0:15:46 > 0:15:49this surprises you. Whether this is what you might have expected, given
0:15:49 > 0:15:59your experiences in the sector?It doesn't surprise me. I suppose there
0:15:59 > 0:16:07is a very strong weakness in HR practices, absolutely. I think
0:16:07 > 0:16:10Roland Van Hauwermeiren is a very interesting particular case study in
0:16:10 > 0:16:14that he has been able to manipulate the system for a very long time, he
0:16:14 > 0:16:18has obviously chosen to move around from different countries between
0:16:18 > 0:16:24organisations. He knows that it hasn't been tracked properly and he
0:16:24 > 0:16:30has manipulated that.It should be said that he denies these specific
0:16:30 > 0:16:34allegations of using prostitutes, he says yes, I did have sexual
0:16:34 > 0:16:43relations but with women who were honest, dignified women. Said the
0:16:43 > 0:16:47allegations are there and they are multiple, he has denied the point
0:16:47 > 0:16:54about prostitutes. But in the end, this is terribly damaging, isn't it?
0:16:54 > 0:16:58It is damaging not just for Oxfam but the entire world of humanitarian
0:16:58 > 0:17:04aid.Absolutely and that is what I think we have to recognise, he is a
0:17:04 > 0:17:07particular bad case that has been able to manipulate systematically
0:17:07 > 0:17:13but absolutely, it exposes a problem that is much bigger than that and is
0:17:13 > 0:17:17systemwide and it goes into our failure to protect and safeguard
0:17:17 > 0:17:26people and staff, actually. And one of the main challenges is to improve
0:17:26 > 0:17:30quite weak HR practices in terms of how we recruit and how we vet staff
0:17:30 > 0:17:35and also in terms of how we pass on information. And I think there is a
0:17:35 > 0:17:40real issue there with NGOs, and other organisations wanting and
0:17:40 > 0:17:45knowing that they will be condemned in the public and wanting to protect
0:17:45 > 0:17:52their image. Also, a real fear of legal action in terms of defamation
0:17:52 > 0:17:58and so they give sometimes references, probably, that confirm
0:17:58 > 0:18:01that people had been employed in certain capacities at certain times
0:18:01 > 0:18:07and it has a much more than that. But they don't give stronger...They
0:18:07 > 0:18:11don't put the red warning flags out. You indicated to me that you felt
0:18:11 > 0:18:16this was systemic and this is a much wider issue then Oxfam. I believed
0:18:16 > 0:18:23in recent days, then you chief has said they had put his six more
0:18:23 > 0:18:28reports of what individuals regard as unacceptable behaviour inside the
0:18:28 > 0:18:32organisation. We have had other NGOs, also now, it seems, involved
0:18:32 > 0:18:43in unacceptable exploitative de Gea is. Is this the MeToo moment for the
0:18:43 > 0:18:50aid industry?I think it is, and I hope it is for our sector. Again, as
0:18:50 > 0:18:57I said, Rowland is a particular case and perhaps we need that to start
0:18:57 > 0:19:01the discussion. But from what I have heard from talking to friends
0:19:01 > 0:19:05working in the sector and former colleagues and so many accounts over
0:19:05 > 0:19:12the past week, this is a real problem, it is systemic at it
0:19:12 > 0:19:18happens on all levels in this industry, as it does in other
0:19:18 > 0:19:22sectors as well. But we need to challenge this and it needs to come
0:19:22 > 0:19:28to light and this is the opportunity to do that.Are there today still
0:19:28 > 0:19:32individuals acting with impunity in countries where women and children
0:19:32 > 0:19:38are extraordinarily vulnerable? Absolutely there is. Maybe not of
0:19:38 > 0:19:44the kind that this particular case has shown, but absolutely. It is a
0:19:44 > 0:19:49widespread and systemic issue, some call it even endemic.How
0:19:49 > 0:19:57depressing. For all of those people who routinely give money to aid
0:19:57 > 0:19:59organisations, you're telling me that actually these organisations
0:19:59 > 0:20:07have an endemic problem with abuse. Yes, but still keeping in mind that
0:20:07 > 0:20:11this is the vast majority of people working in this sector, whether
0:20:11 > 0:20:16international or local staff, are not doing this. And so we eat to
0:20:16 > 0:20:20really shine a light on this problem now, raise it and really find out
0:20:20 > 0:20:26what is the problem and how do we best address it? I would absolutely
0:20:26 > 0:20:30not argue for cutting any funding, I hope that this media coverage and
0:20:30 > 0:20:36donor reaction does not lead to a further distrust within the sector
0:20:36 > 0:20:39because it is so important that we don't undermine the response
0:20:39 > 0:20:44capacity that we have.There has to be consequences. The UK government
0:20:44 > 0:20:49is reconsidering whether it will give its £32 million per year to
0:20:49 > 0:20:54Oxfam, Ricky Patel said that all future funding must be subject to
0:20:54 > 0:20:58the aid sector, in commenting the highest standards of child
0:20:58 > 0:21:00protection, investigating all allegations and securing
0:21:00 > 0:21:03prosecutions of those responsible and if they don't make the grade,
0:21:03 > 0:21:08they shouldn't get the aid.I think it is important to recognise that a
0:21:08 > 0:21:13lot has been done. This has come to light several times over the past
0:21:13 > 0:21:18ten years and a lot has been done. There are policies and procedures
0:21:18 > 0:21:25and guidelines in place, there is code of conduct. But both in terms
0:21:25 > 0:21:31of whistleblowing and safeguarding both staff and beneficiaries. I
0:21:31 > 0:21:36think this knee-jerk reaction, that this media coverage and maybe some
0:21:36 > 0:21:42donor responses as well give the public, in terms of undermining the
0:21:42 > 0:21:44confidence in humanitarian assistance work, which is critical
0:21:44 > 0:21:49for many many people around the world, is unfortunate and I think we
0:21:49 > 0:21:57need to be ensured that our action is actually motivated why a real,
0:21:57 > 0:22:04kind of, emphasis and change and change that is needed.Are you
0:22:04 > 0:22:07implying to me that you believe some people might be playing politics
0:22:07 > 0:22:12with this? Those in political circles who think that actually
0:22:12 > 0:22:18giving 0%% or whatever it is of GDP to international aid is too much and
0:22:18 > 0:22:25it is a mistake and it gets misused? I think there is a risk that this
0:22:25 > 0:22:29all adds up supporting an anti- aid agenda, absolutely. I would say that
0:22:29 > 0:22:35we need to be careful not to go in that direction and instead try to
0:22:35 > 0:22:40see what we can really do to address this systemwide approach. And
0:22:40 > 0:22:45actually, any other response to this issue would continue that kind of
0:22:45 > 0:22:52culture of impunity and a lack of transparency because it kind of
0:22:52 > 0:22:55shows that organisations when they come out and are accountable, which
0:22:55 > 0:23:01they should do, they are punished for it. I have been working for acid
0:23:01 > 0:23:04donor for a long time and I think when alarm bells should be ringing
0:23:04 > 0:23:09is when you get zero cases, zero incidents.A final point. We are
0:23:09 > 0:23:14talked about the trust lost with donors, but what about the trust
0:23:14 > 0:23:20lost on the ground with the people that aid organisations are meant to
0:23:20 > 0:23:25help. A final thought on this. This is what the Haitian Minister said
0:23:25 > 0:23:28the other day: These people, from the international aid groups, today
0:23:28 > 0:23:35they look like mercenary is. That is an extraordinarily gaming thing to
0:23:35 > 0:23:40hear, isn't it? After 20 years in the age business.It is and it is
0:23:40 > 0:23:45sad and I don't think it is the case for the sector as a whole. I really
0:23:45 > 0:23:48think that this is the time to start to listen, to bring everything to
0:23:48 > 0:23:52light, to listen to our staff, our beneficiaries, our local
0:23:52 > 0:23:56organisations that are working in partnership with us. Bring it to
0:23:56 > 0:24:02light now and make it a priority to address it throughout the sector and
0:24:02 > 0:24:07see what solutions we can come up to. There is a lot that has been
0:24:07 > 0:24:11done, a lot that has been said already. We need to just prioritise
0:24:11 > 0:24:17giving the last bit.We have to end it there. Amira Malik Miller, thank
0:24:17 > 0:24:24you so much for being on HARDtalk. Thank you to having the.Thank you.
0:24:24 > 0:24:26-- thank you for having me.