0:00:00 > 0:00:00Stay with BBC World News.
0:00:00 > 0:00:03Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:07 > 0:00:09Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:09 > 0:00:12I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:12 > 0:00:15South Sudan's first six and a half years as an independent country have
0:00:15 > 0:00:22been an unmitigated disaster.
0:00:22 > 0:00:24A brutal civil conflict, a broken economy, famine and
0:00:24 > 0:00:26epic levels of corruption.
0:00:26 > 0:00:28On any and every measure, the world's newest
0:00:28 > 0:00:31country is failing.
0:00:31 > 0:00:36And this despite some of the largest oil reserves in sub-Saharan Africa.
0:00:36 > 0:00:39My guest today is South Sudan's Minister of Petroleum,
0:00:39 > 0:00:42Ezekiel Lol Gatkuoth.
0:00:42 > 0:00:48Who or what can deliver South Sudan's people from despair?
0:01:14 > 0:01:16Ezekiel Lol Gatkuoth, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19Thank you for having me here.
0:01:19 > 0:01:22As I just said, South Sudan is just over six years
0:01:22 > 0:01:26old as an independent nation.
0:01:26 > 0:01:29In your worst nightmares, could you have imagined just how
0:01:29 > 0:01:34horrible the situation in your country would be today?
0:01:34 > 0:01:36Well, thank you for having me on this show.
0:01:36 > 0:01:43The Republic of South Sudan gained independence in July 2011.
0:01:43 > 0:01:45On the 9th of July.
0:01:45 > 0:01:54Of course, we are transitioning from a liberation movement
0:01:54 > 0:01:57to now running a state, and running a state is a serious business.
0:01:57 > 0:02:00And we are working together with the president of the Republic
0:02:00 > 0:02:03of South Sudan to forge a better future for the people
0:02:03 > 0:02:04of South Sudan.
0:02:04 > 0:02:06But the direction of travel is backwards, not forwards.
0:02:06 > 0:02:08I mean, since 2013, you've been stuck in this brutal,
0:02:08 > 0:02:10bloody civil conflict inside the country.
0:02:10 > 0:02:14And for you and people like you, who were the generation very much
0:02:14 > 0:02:18involved in achieving independence, that hope, that reconciliation
0:02:18 > 0:02:21and unity that we saw expressed around the time of independence,
0:02:21 > 0:02:24it's completely disappeared.
0:02:24 > 0:02:28It is because there are individuals who are struggling for power,
0:02:28 > 0:02:33and that is why we are in the situation.
0:02:33 > 0:02:41There are some individuals who are interested in power,
0:02:41 > 0:02:43in the state of running the people of South Sudan.
0:02:43 > 0:02:46He was interested in being on the top, by actually
0:02:46 > 0:02:50being the president of the Republic of South Sudan.
0:02:50 > 0:02:54You mentioned Riek Machar, currently in exile.
0:02:54 > 0:02:58He fled the country in fear of his life in 2016.
0:02:58 > 0:03:00He was your political mentor in many ways.
0:03:00 > 0:03:04You backed him for an awful long time.
0:03:04 > 0:03:07You then jumped ship and decided to throw your lot
0:03:07 > 0:03:10with President Salva Kiir.
0:03:10 > 0:03:14But what we have at the centre of South Sudan is a fundamental
0:03:14 > 0:03:24division between the Dinka and Nuer people.
0:03:26 > 0:03:27There is an agreement that we are implementing.
0:03:27 > 0:03:34An agreement was signed in 2015, August.
0:03:35 > 0:03:36We are implementing that agreement.
0:03:36 > 0:03:37That agreement is being implemented.
0:03:37 > 0:03:40And what we are doing together with President Salva Kiir Mayardit
0:03:40 > 0:03:42is to bring to those who are not part of the agreement
0:03:42 > 0:03:43to be on board.
0:03:43 > 0:03:46And then from there, we transition from where we are now
0:03:46 > 0:03:50to a better future for all of us.
0:03:50 > 0:03:53Better future sounds great as words, but look at reality.
0:03:53 > 0:04:00The civil conflict continues.
0:04:00 > 0:04:03The latest human rights watch report just came out for 2018,
0:04:03 > 0:04:04looking back at 2017.
0:04:04 > 0:04:09It talks about government and rebel forces committing egregious abuses
0:04:09 > 0:04:11that qualify as war crimes, looting and
0:04:11 > 0:04:13attacks on civilians, destruction of civilian property,
0:04:13 > 0:04:16arbitrary arrests and detention, torture, enforced disappearances,
0:04:16 > 0:04:22rape, including gang rapes, and extrajudicial executions.
0:04:22 > 0:04:24So whatever you tell me about an agreement in Juba,
0:04:24 > 0:04:27on the ground across your country, civilians are being
0:04:27 > 0:04:30terrorised and killed.
0:04:30 > 0:04:33Let me tell you these are reports, but the reality on the ground now,
0:04:33 > 0:04:37there is peace in Juba.
0:04:37 > 0:04:41Actually you can even party into the night,
0:04:41 > 0:04:43until two, three in the morning.
0:04:43 > 0:04:45There is peace in Juba.
0:04:45 > 0:04:4680% of the whole country is peaceful.
0:04:46 > 0:04:51It is not like what it used to be in 2013, 2014, 2015.
0:04:51 > 0:04:54One third of your entire population has been forced to flee their homes.
0:04:54 > 0:04:55One third!
0:04:55 > 0:04:56Yes, this is the report.
0:04:56 > 0:04:57I'm telling you...
0:04:57 > 0:05:00You're going to talk to me about parties in Juba
0:05:00 > 0:05:02but right across your nation, there are people who have fled
0:05:03 > 0:05:07in fear of their lives.
0:05:07 > 0:05:09Tens, hundreds of thousands living in IDP camps.
0:05:09 > 0:05:12And those are the ones who haven't fled across the country's borders
0:05:13 > 0:05:15into the neighbouring states.
0:05:15 > 0:05:16That is what I'm telling.
0:05:16 > 0:05:17This is a report.
0:05:17 > 0:05:18But what I can tell you.
0:05:18 > 0:05:21Of course there are people in Uganda, there are people
0:05:21 > 0:05:24in Ethiopia, there are people who are in Kenya and in Sudan,
0:05:24 > 0:05:32because of the war that we had in 2013 and also in 2016.
0:05:32 > 0:05:33And what we are doing...
0:05:33 > 0:05:35Of course, propaganda is there.
0:05:35 > 0:05:37People are being told that if you do not leave,
0:05:37 > 0:05:39the government is coming to kill you.
0:05:39 > 0:05:41All we are doing now and the people are coming back
0:05:41 > 0:05:48because we are actually telling them that actual dialogue.
0:05:48 > 0:05:50Peace will come within our cities.
0:05:50 > 0:05:53Minister, I have to confess I'm shocked that you say these reports
0:05:53 > 0:05:58of the crisis continuing are nothing but propaganda.
0:05:58 > 0:06:03We know that even in the last year, your country has been
0:06:03 > 0:06:05at risk of mass famine because of the insecurity
0:06:05 > 0:06:09across the country.
0:06:09 > 0:06:13And more than half of all your people, according to the independent
0:06:13 > 0:06:17international aid agencies, are living with hunger right now.
0:06:17 > 0:06:20What I'm actually telling you...
0:06:20 > 0:06:23I'm not disputing the report.
0:06:23 > 0:06:25I'm basically saying, yes, there are cases that
0:06:25 > 0:06:30are actually real...
0:06:30 > 0:06:32This is the breakdown of a nation.
0:06:32 > 0:06:37This isn't sporadic cases in far-flung corners of South Sudan.
0:06:37 > 0:06:39This is a nation that has failed, that is broken.
0:06:39 > 0:06:40We have not failed.
0:06:40 > 0:06:43We have a government that is functioning.
0:06:43 > 0:06:45We have a president, a presidency and a cabinet
0:06:45 > 0:06:48that is functioning.
0:06:48 > 0:06:50Of course you know the situation that we are in,
0:06:50 > 0:06:55it is our own making.
0:06:55 > 0:06:58We, the leaders of the Republic of South Sudan, we are actually
0:06:58 > 0:07:00working to fix it together, all of us.
0:07:00 > 0:07:06President Salva Kiir, he is leading the nation.
0:07:06 > 0:07:08And I can assure you we will actually get out of this.
0:07:08 > 0:07:10It is not unique to South Sudan.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12In Africa as a whole, we went through these
0:07:12 > 0:07:16transitions, and then we had this liberation syndrome.
0:07:16 > 0:07:20Some people will say I can run it better than you,
0:07:20 > 0:07:21and the power struggle will come.
0:07:21 > 0:07:24If you look at it, it is actually is a power struggle.
0:07:24 > 0:07:27In 2005 until 2013, there was no war in the country.
0:07:27 > 0:07:32But when Riek Machar made it clear he was going to run
0:07:32 > 0:07:34and he was dismissed along with some ministers, that's
0:07:34 > 0:07:35when the war started.
0:07:35 > 0:07:38It won't wash, will it, Minister, blaming Riek Machar for all of this?
0:07:38 > 0:07:41I mean, look at what the international community has said
0:07:41 > 0:07:44in the very recent past about whom they see as culpable
0:07:44 > 0:07:49for the total breakdown that I described in your country today.
0:07:49 > 0:07:52The UN Secretary-General Antonio Guterres said at a meeting
0:07:52 > 0:07:57recently on South Sudan, "I have never seen a political
0:07:57 > 0:07:59elite with so little interest in the well-being
0:07:59 > 0:08:03of its own people."
0:08:03 > 0:08:09Yes, I can...
0:08:09 > 0:08:12Well, of course, this is his opinion and I can agree with his...
0:08:12 > 0:08:15What he is saying, he might be right in some cases.
0:08:15 > 0:08:17But not everybody who is actually not putting
0:08:17 > 0:08:21the people's interest at heart.
0:08:21 > 0:08:25And that's why we are here in this government, to deliver it.
0:08:25 > 0:08:27Regardless of the challenges we are getting, because there
0:08:27 > 0:08:30are people who are actually tried to drag us down.
0:08:30 > 0:08:32But we are actually moving forward.
0:08:32 > 0:08:34We're moving forward by bringing peace.
0:08:34 > 0:08:35We have an agreement...
0:08:35 > 0:08:37But to move forward, you have to be honest
0:08:37 > 0:08:38about the situation...
0:08:38 > 0:08:39I'm very honest.
0:08:39 > 0:08:41You've dismissed much of what I reported is happening
0:08:41 > 0:08:44on the ground in the country.
0:08:44 > 0:08:48And it is interesting that when Mark Green, the head of USAID,
0:08:48 > 0:08:53one of the key donor countries looking to help in South Sudan,
0:08:53 > 0:08:58when he saw Salva Kiir recently, he emerged and sources close to him
0:08:58 > 0:09:05said, and I'm quoting from the US media, that he was shocked to be
0:09:05 > 0:09:09lied to so brazenly by the president about the situation in the country.
0:09:09 > 0:09:11And he then, that is Mr Green, said that he would undertake
0:09:11 > 0:09:14a complete review of American policy toward South Sudan.
0:09:14 > 0:09:18The Americans have given up on your government.
0:09:18 > 0:09:19This is his opinion.
0:09:19 > 0:09:21And we respect that.
0:09:21 > 0:09:23The US will continue to be an ally.
0:09:23 > 0:09:27Of course, they have been a bit difficult with us recently.
0:09:27 > 0:09:30But why do you think that is, Minister?
0:09:30 > 0:09:33Why do you think that is, that they oppose an arms embargo,
0:09:33 > 0:09:35they have put sanctions on two of your most senior generals
0:09:35 > 0:09:38and the Minister of Information, accusing them all of outrageous
0:09:38 > 0:09:40levels of corruption?
0:09:40 > 0:09:42Why do you think the Americans are doing this?
0:09:42 > 0:09:44You know, we are really concerned about the decisions
0:09:44 > 0:09:50that the Americans are taking.
0:09:50 > 0:09:54America is an ally, a friend to us, and to the people of South Sudan.
0:09:54 > 0:09:56But for them, you don't give sanctions to your
0:09:56 > 0:09:59friends, you don't...
0:09:59 > 0:10:01You sanction your friends if they are betraying
0:10:01 > 0:10:02the interest of your own people.
0:10:02 > 0:10:07You advise your friends.
0:10:07 > 0:10:13You don't sanction them.
0:10:13 > 0:10:16Well, there comes a point where you can be friends no longer
0:10:16 > 0:10:20with people who are consistently betraying their own people.
0:10:20 > 0:10:22It is very unfortunate if America takes that route.
0:10:22 > 0:10:25For us, we will continue to reach out to the support of the US.
0:10:25 > 0:10:29They have been supporting us, we are not denying that.
0:10:29 > 0:10:33But again, Minister, let's pick away at the specifics.
0:10:33 > 0:10:35You tell me that, you know, your government is committed
0:10:35 > 0:10:38to reconciliation, unity and building a country.
0:10:38 > 0:10:42Why is it that in the recent talks in Addis Ababa, under the auspices
0:10:42 > 0:10:45of the Intergovernmental Authority on Development, a regional effort
0:10:45 > 0:10:46to get the South Sudan conflict under control
0:10:47 > 0:10:51and stabilise the situation.
0:10:51 > 0:10:54The government side, your side, simply walked away from the talks
0:10:54 > 0:10:56when the opposition put together a proposal on a national
0:10:56 > 0:10:57unity government.
0:10:57 > 0:11:03Actually it was the opposite.
0:11:03 > 0:11:07President Salva Kiir is actually committed
0:11:16 > 0:11:20It means an actual terms that those who are not part of the agreement
0:11:20 > 0:11:22should be brought on board, and what we are proposing
0:11:22 > 0:11:24is that we implement the agreement.
0:11:24 > 0:11:25How do we bring them on board?
0:11:25 > 0:11:26By actually expanding the government.
0:11:26 > 0:11:27President Salva Kiir Mayardit...
0:11:27 > 0:11:33The presidency remains intact.
0:11:33 > 0:11:35Below the presidency, you create the layer.
0:11:35 > 0:11:39Bottom line is, as Secretary-General of one of the opposition groups,
0:11:39 > 0:11:41the South Sudan national movement for change, said, the government
0:11:41 > 0:11:44delegation simply wasn't willing to end the violence in South Sudan
0:11:44 > 0:11:46because in the end, there are too many interests,
0:11:46 > 0:11:51particularly in the military, who see a profit to be made.
0:11:52 > 0:11:53And out of the continued conflict.
0:11:53 > 0:11:54It is the opposite.
0:11:54 > 0:11:55We are interested...
0:11:55 > 0:12:00And that's all we came up with a proposal, a proposal
0:12:00 > 0:12:02can include everybody.
0:12:02 > 0:12:04When you are actually including, you don't exclude, you include.
0:12:04 > 0:12:06So that you can actually be part of the process
0:12:06 > 0:12:09to implement the agreement.
0:12:09 > 0:12:11So that everybody is party to this peace agreement.
0:12:11 > 0:12:15And when we implement, we implement together
0:12:15 > 0:12:16to a democrat election.
0:12:16 > 0:12:19The problem is, as I keep saying, on the ground, the reality doesn't
0:12:19 > 0:12:29match your very optimistic and confident words.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32And that matters to you than most people but you're the minister
0:12:32 > 0:12:34responsible for oil and gas production, and as we see,
0:12:34 > 0:12:37right now, oil and gas production is way down on the levels
0:12:37 > 0:12:39it was even before independence because of the chronic insecurity
0:12:40 > 0:12:48across the oilfields.
0:12:48 > 0:12:50My vision as the minister of petroleum is to...
0:12:50 > 0:12:51Just tell me.
0:12:51 > 0:12:52Barrels per day right now.
0:12:52 > 0:12:57We are producing 143,000 barrels a day...
0:12:57 > 0:12:59Do you know what figure was before independence?
0:12:59 > 0:13:00480,000 barrels a day.
0:13:00 > 0:13:02It's a quarter!
0:13:02 > 0:13:04You're producing roughly a quarter of the oil that the region produced
0:13:04 > 0:13:07before the civil conflict began.
0:13:07 > 0:13:12Now the good news is that we are actually going to be reaching
0:13:12 > 0:13:17200,000 barrels a day by the end of this year, and we are
0:13:17 > 0:13:19going to reopen oilfields in a former unity state.
0:13:19 > 0:13:24And then now, with the current oil prices going up,
0:13:24 > 0:13:27and we will pray that it continues to actually remain the same, we
0:13:27 > 0:13:28are actually going getting better.
0:13:30 > 0:13:32are actually getting better.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35Our financial situation last year, this year is better than last year
0:13:35 > 0:13:36and we're moving forward.
0:13:36 > 0:13:38Interesting you talk about the financial situation.
0:13:38 > 0:13:42Is it true, as a deputy oil minister in your government told Reuters News
0:13:42 > 0:13:48Agency at the end of last year, is it true that your government
0:13:48 > 0:13:53still owes the Sudanese government in Khartoum $1.3 billion in back
0:13:53 > 0:13:58payments dating back to oil production for 2012?
0:13:58 > 0:14:03This is the deputy minister of finance and planning.
0:14:03 > 0:14:09Well, it is true that we are owing them, because when we split
0:14:09 > 0:14:17the country into two in 2011, we realised we are taking 75%
0:14:17 > 0:14:20of the oil and we have agreed as two countries, in the spirit
0:14:20 > 0:14:22of the viability of the two countries, we have agreed
0:14:22 > 0:14:23to give them $3 billion.
0:14:23 > 0:14:25And you still owe them 1.3 billion.
0:14:25 > 0:14:26And we are paying them.
0:14:26 > 0:14:28We are actually paying monthly.
0:14:28 > 0:14:29Forgive me.
0:14:29 > 0:14:311.3 billion represents what, possibly eight years
0:14:31 > 0:14:35of forward revenues from your entire oil sector?
0:14:35 > 0:14:45What we have done, we translate this 3 billion into barrels.
0:14:46 > 0:14:48How much we will actually pay them a barrel.
0:14:48 > 0:14:51We are paying them $15 a barrel and is a we have been paying
0:14:51 > 0:14:56for the last three and a half years.
0:14:56 > 0:14:58I have extended it when I came in office 2016.
0:14:58 > 0:15:01I have extended it for another two and a half years,
0:15:01 > 0:15:03and we are actually paying and we will continue to pay them.
0:15:03 > 0:15:05So despite the notion of independence in your
0:15:05 > 0:15:06country since 2011,
0:15:06 > 0:15:08you're actually being squeezed by the Sudanese government.
0:15:08 > 0:15:11They're taking a huge proportion of the income of every barrel of oil
0:15:11 > 0:15:15and they also control the shipment because it's got to go through their
0:15:15 > 0:15:18through their country to get to a port.
0:15:18 > 0:15:21In essence, Sudan has a huge amount of control over your oil business.
0:15:21 > 0:15:27Of course it is true that they are transporting our oil
0:15:27 > 0:15:29and we'll continue to transport our oil from Sudan.
0:15:29 > 0:15:32Remember, we are one country and we are one people
0:15:32 > 0:15:34who will continue to be friends and brothers...
0:15:34 > 0:15:38Excuse me, but you just fought a 50 year war against these people
0:15:38 > 0:15:40and now you're admitted to me that Khartoum, in essence,
0:15:41 > 0:15:43has control of your key industry.
0:15:43 > 0:15:45Because the pipeline is transporting our oil to Port Sudan,
0:15:45 > 0:15:48and we will continue to use that pipeline.
0:15:49 > 0:15:51You know, politics is politics.
0:15:51 > 0:15:54The people of Sudan and South Sudan who remain to be there,
0:15:54 > 0:15:57and that's what we have realised as two countries, we have
0:15:57 > 0:15:59to co-operate so that we can transport the oil.
0:15:59 > 0:16:04It is actually going to benefit the people of South Sudan
0:16:04 > 0:16:08and the people of Sudan.
0:16:08 > 0:16:10Bottom line, Minister, when you desperately appeal
0:16:10 > 0:16:18for international investment in your oil and gas sector,
0:16:18 > 0:16:21the big players like Exxon Mobil and others, they look
0:16:21 > 0:16:24at what is happening on the ground, they are looking at the chronic
0:16:24 > 0:16:26insecurity, they look at the relationship with Sudan,
0:16:26 > 0:16:29they look at the failure to deliver on infrastructure or any semblance
0:16:29 > 0:16:31of the government in your country and they say "We don't
0:16:31 > 0:16:32want any part of that."
0:16:32 > 0:16:34It is actually the opposite.
0:16:34 > 0:16:44From here, I will be flying to Paris.
0:16:46 > 0:16:49They met my president last month in Juba and they are interested.
0:16:49 > 0:16:52This is a British-based company and a state owned oil
0:16:52 > 0:16:57company of Kuwait...
0:16:57 > 0:16:59Strictly and explicitly set last year that they were putting any
0:16:59 > 0:17:02ambitions they had in South Sudan on hold because of the
0:17:02 > 0:17:03insecurity in your country.
0:17:03 > 0:17:05It is the opposite.
0:17:05 > 0:17:08I was the one who told them that we need to reach an agreement
0:17:08 > 0:17:09as soon as possible.
0:17:09 > 0:17:10We all know you want them.
0:17:10 > 0:17:14The question is do they want you?
0:17:14 > 0:17:15They want me.
0:17:15 > 0:17:20I'm the one with the oil.
0:17:20 > 0:17:22You're the one with the oil and you only produce a quarter
0:17:22 > 0:17:32of what you did produce before, a vast amount of the revenue goes
0:17:32 > 0:17:36to the Sudanese government.
0:17:36 > 0:17:36Your government is crippled in debts.
0:17:36 > 0:17:39I like the smile, but you've nothing to smile about.
0:17:39 > 0:17:41By the way, you are forgetting that the NPC, the Chinese
0:17:41 > 0:17:43state owned company, is in South Sudan.
0:17:43 > 0:17:45The Malaysian oil state owned company is in South Sudan.
0:17:45 > 0:17:47Oh, believe me, I'm not forgetting.
0:17:47 > 0:17:50I'm also very aware when people look at investing in your oil
0:17:50 > 0:17:52business, they see nothing but danger, risk, insecurity.
0:17:52 > 0:17:54Let me tell you it is actually the opposite.
0:17:54 > 0:17:56What we have decided so far, the president of the Republic
0:17:57 > 0:18:02decreed a petroleum security.
0:18:02 > 0:18:04Three layers that is responsible for the protection of oil
0:18:04 > 0:18:05workers and also oilfields.
0:18:05 > 0:18:07Oilfields, as we speak now, they are 100% secure.
0:18:07 > 0:18:09The kidnapping that happened last year,
0:18:09 > 0:18:10it was actually a wake-up call.
0:18:10 > 0:18:15So that we can beef up our security.
0:18:15 > 0:18:17What I can actually tell you openly and honestly, oilfields
0:18:17 > 0:18:20and oil workers are secure.
0:18:20 > 0:18:27That's why we...
0:18:27 > 0:18:30They are interested and we are going to reach an agreement
0:18:30 > 0:18:32on block B-1 and B-2 soon.
0:18:32 > 0:18:38You're an optimist.
0:18:38 > 0:18:41Let us just assume for a moment that you are right and that you can ramp
0:18:41 > 0:18:44up oil production in a very dramatic way over the next
0:18:44 > 0:18:50couple of years or so.
0:18:50 > 0:18:53The problem with that is that there's been the question over
0:18:53 > 0:18:55the oil revenues will go, and we know the way
0:18:55 > 0:18:58in which independent experts have analysed governance in South Sudan,
0:18:58 > 0:19:00we know that the vast proportion of that money
0:19:00 > 0:19:05will simply go to the elites, the warlords, the top officials
0:19:05 > 0:19:09in the military and the government who siphon off vast amounts of cash
0:19:09 > 0:19:11in endemic corruption.
0:19:11 > 0:19:13Corruption is not unique to South Sudan alone.
0:19:13 > 0:19:19It is everywhere in the world.
0:19:19 > 0:19:22What we are looking for in South Sudan is strong institutions.
0:19:22 > 0:19:25If we could have institutions that can fight corruption
0:19:25 > 0:19:35and we are actually basically appealing to friends and partners
0:19:45 > 0:19:48that, "let us work together to build these institutions so that corrupt
0:19:48 > 0:19:49officials can be fought using these institutions."
0:19:49 > 0:19:52Why would anybody believe you in South Sudan are
0:19:52 > 0:19:53capable of doing that?
0:19:53 > 0:19:55John Pendergrast, who is one of the most respected analysts
0:19:55 > 0:19:56of corruption in Africa.
0:19:56 > 0:19:58He runs the Enough Project, has described the South Sudan
0:19:59 > 0:20:01government as "a den of thieves."
0:20:01 > 0:20:03He says it's a kleptocratic winner-take-all state
0:20:03 > 0:20:06with institutions that have been hijacked
0:20:06 > 0:20:07by government officials, commercial collaborators
0:20:07 > 0:20:08for the purposes of self enrichment.
0:20:08 > 0:20:10That is his report and his opinion.
0:20:10 > 0:20:12In that report, I...
0:20:12 > 0:20:14There are a lot of loopholes.
0:20:14 > 0:20:18He did not do a thorough job in researching.
0:20:18 > 0:20:22I'm not saying that there's not corruption in South Sudan.
0:20:22 > 0:20:24There is corruption in South Sudan.
0:20:24 > 0:20:26There is corruption here in the United Kingdom.
0:20:26 > 0:20:27Even in the US, there is corruption.
0:20:27 > 0:20:29The difference between the United Kingdom and USA
0:20:29 > 0:20:32and South Sudan is because here, there are institutions
0:20:32 > 0:20:35built to deal with that.
0:20:35 > 0:20:40And that is what we are actually doing as a government.
0:20:40 > 0:20:42We have a policy of zero tolerance on corruption, but we have...
0:20:42 > 0:20:43Oh, come on.
0:20:43 > 0:20:45Zero tolerance.
0:20:45 > 0:20:46With respect, that's absurd in South Sudan today.
0:20:46 > 0:20:47We do.
0:20:47 > 0:20:49We do.
0:20:49 > 0:20:51I mean, corruption is everywhere.
0:20:51 > 0:20:58And just to take one example which comes back to what happens
0:20:58 > 0:21:01to the oil revenues, the Sentry, a sort of activist website
0:21:01 > 0:21:04looking at corruption, made a special study of what happens
0:21:04 > 0:21:09to the vast amount of oil revenues which end up going into "Security,
0:21:09 > 0:21:11military and intelligence institutions" in Sudan.
0:21:11 > 0:21:17It seems it's more than half of all the oil revenues.
0:21:17 > 0:21:20And according to the Sentry, there is no way to discover exactly
0:21:20 > 0:21:21where the money goes.
0:21:21 > 0:21:26There is no transparency whatsoever.
0:21:26 > 0:21:27"The military involves a large and fabricated patronage system.
0:21:33 > 0:21:35"The military involves a large and complicated patronage system.
0:21:35 > 0:21:37There is little oversight of payroll expenses with leading
0:21:37 > 0:21:42security ministries rarely reporting their expenditures.
0:21:42 > 0:21:43the salaries of soldiers.
0:21:44 > 0:21:45In many case, military commanders have stolen
0:21:45 > 0:21:46the salaries of soldiers.
0:21:46 > 0:21:51There are tens of thousands of ghost soldiers."
0:21:51 > 0:21:52Strong institutions actually fight this corruption.
0:21:52 > 0:21:56But do you acknowledge that is what is happening today
0:21:56 > 0:21:59today in your country.
0:21:59 > 0:22:01Given what you are actually reading now, transparency.
0:22:01 > 0:22:13If you don't have a strong system to even actually look at the budget,
0:22:13 > 0:22:15work with the Ministry of finance, work with the parliament,
0:22:16 > 0:22:17so that you know...
0:22:17 > 0:22:19The Ministry of petroleum, it is very clear how many barrels
0:22:19 > 0:22:20we are producing a day.
0:22:20 > 0:22:22We know the price of the oil worldwide...
0:22:22 > 0:22:24The issue is where does the money go?
0:22:24 > 0:22:26This is where the budget matters.
0:22:26 > 0:22:29You need to follow this.
0:22:29 > 0:22:37The minister of finance and parliament so you can actually
0:22:37 > 0:22:39know and follow where the money goes, because some
0:22:39 > 0:22:41are actually used for education, health care and salaries.
0:22:41 > 0:22:43You slashed education and health care budgets in recent years.
0:22:43 > 0:22:44You know that.
0:22:44 > 0:22:48And the one budget that has not been slashed, I come back to it,
0:22:48 > 0:22:49is the security budget.
0:22:49 > 0:22:52And there is absolutely no way of knowing for most of the money
0:22:52 > 0:22:54in that security budget actually ends up.
0:22:54 > 0:22:57Stephen, as in anywhere in the world, you must make sure
0:22:57 > 0:23:00you protect the lives of the people of South Sudan by empowering
0:23:00 > 0:23:01your security force.
0:23:01 > 0:23:03As we've discussed, there is no security in South Sudan today
0:23:03 > 0:23:08today but let me just...
0:23:08 > 0:23:10We're almost out of time and I think this is the right
0:23:10 > 0:23:12time to ask you this.
0:23:12 > 0:23:14How do you think the generation, and that your generation,
0:23:14 > 0:23:16the generation who delivered and oversaw the independence
0:23:16 > 0:23:19of South Sudan and how do you think your generation will be
0:23:19 > 0:23:21judged by history?
0:23:21 > 0:23:25Well, definitely history will be written.
0:23:25 > 0:23:27And for us, I participated in the first war...
0:23:27 > 0:23:29I mean, the second war of 1983.
0:23:29 > 0:23:33We wanted to be...
0:23:33 > 0:23:38We went wrong as leaders but we're here to fix and we will make sure
0:23:38 > 0:23:40that we fix it together as South Sudanese.
0:23:40 > 0:23:43That's what we want a national dialogue.
0:23:43 > 0:23:45So we talk to ourselves, our South Sudanese.
0:23:45 > 0:23:48We find out what went wrong and how do we fix it.
0:23:48 > 0:23:50That's why we have an agreement that is being implemented.
0:23:50 > 0:23:51We need to implement this agreement.
0:23:51 > 0:23:57And those who are interested in running for offices,
0:23:57 > 0:24:02whether you want to be president, whatever you want to be...
0:24:02 > 0:24:05You wait until the right time comes and then from there, you run.
0:24:06 > 0:24:07OK, we have to end it there.
0:24:07 > 0:24:09Ezekiel Lol Gatkuoth, thank you very much.
0:24:09 > 0:24:15Thank you.