0:00:00 > 0:00:03five in Poland, two in Romania.
0:00:05 > 0:00:06Now on BBC News...
0:00:06 > 0:00:11Time for HardTalk.
0:00:22 > 0:00:27Welcome to Hardtalk, I am Stephen Sackur. It is ten years since Kosovo
0:00:27 > 0:00:33became Europe's newest nation. It has not been an easy decade.
0:00:33 > 0:00:39Relations with neighbouring Serbia remain hostile, and international
0:00:39 > 0:00:45recognition has been patchy. Kosovo is still struggling to get on top of
0:00:45 > 0:00:50endemic poverty and corruption. My guest today is Kosovo's Prime
0:00:50 > 0:00:55Minister Ramush Haradinaj. Can Kosovo escape its troubled history?
0:01:23 > 0:01:28Ramush Haradinaj, welcome to Hardtalk.Thank you.You have had
0:01:28 > 0:01:31ten years of Kosovan independence. To the outsider it looks like a
0:01:31 > 0:01:39story of hopes dashed and ambitions thwarted. Is that what it feels like
0:01:39 > 0:01:47to you?The foundation of a state, it is there. It is ten years, if not
0:01:47 > 0:01:53anything else, it has been learning to be ourselves. Facing and making
0:01:53 > 0:01:58mistakes, learning from our mistakes. And Kosovo exists in
0:01:58 > 0:02:05strong foundation.Do you really think so?Yes.When one looks at
0:02:05 > 0:02:08Kosovo today, one sees that despite claims to independence, a
0:02:08 > 0:02:14significant nation, with Russia and China, but five Nations within the
0:02:14 > 0:02:20EU do not even recognise your sovereign independence.This is not
0:02:20 > 0:02:30the end of the project today, where we are. Infrastructure, economy, it
0:02:30 > 0:02:41exists. Institutions of the state exist. Today, we are members of
0:02:41 > 0:02:42different international organisations, and have been
0:02:42 > 0:02:49recognised by a number of organisations. We are in the
0:02:49 > 0:02:57direction to be a member of UN and the EU. We do not stop here.What
0:02:57 > 0:03:02you want to tell me is the direction of travel is positive that if one
0:03:02 > 0:03:06looks at recent developments, for example, the European Parliamentary
0:03:06 > 0:03:12reporter on Kosovo says that because of actions your government has
0:03:12 > 0:03:17taken, Kosovo is no "Off the train of liberalisation of its
0:03:17 > 0:03:21relationship with the European Union". In other words, you are
0:03:21 > 0:03:30going in the wrong direction?We had some challenges, there were
0:03:30 > 0:03:36different topics of discussion but finally we are structured again,
0:03:36 > 0:03:41going in the right direction.How do you feel, then, when Jean-Claude
0:03:41 > 0:03:43Juncker, the president of the European Commission, says quite
0:03:43 > 0:03:48openly that when it comes to the Balkans, Serbia and Montenegro are
0:03:48 > 0:03:52at the front of the queue for EU membership. They would like to see
0:03:52 > 0:03:56them inside the club by 2025 and he gives no indication at all that
0:03:56 > 0:04:01there is a target date for Kosovo. Many people believe it is impossible
0:04:01 > 0:04:08to imagine Kosovo inside the EU.In Russia, they do not even showing our
0:04:08 > 0:04:12flag because they do not recognise us.But their problem is your
0:04:12 > 0:04:21problem, that is my point.Yes, and I had congratulations from them on
0:04:21 > 0:04:24our tenth anniversary of independence. We exist, we are a
0:04:24 > 0:04:32member of the family. We have to find a solution to be recognised and
0:04:32 > 0:04:37with Serbia.That is something that has to happen. You have led me to my
0:04:37 > 0:04:40next question. The key to normalisation of your statehood and
0:04:40 > 0:04:45your future. That is, the relationship with Serbia. How are
0:04:45 > 0:04:49you going to move from the current suspicion and mistrust, the
0:04:49 > 0:04:55hostility, to a normalised relationship with your neighbour?We
0:04:55 > 0:05:02have two strong arguments. One is our constitution is an advanced one.
0:05:02 > 0:05:08We had a very advanced Constitution. The second is the position of Kosovo
0:05:08 > 0:05:14Serbs in the country. A community that is respected and granted the
0:05:14 > 0:05:17most row is possible that a constitution could grant their
0:05:17 > 0:05:29community. Based on that, we have cohesion -- the most rights.It is
0:05:29 > 0:05:34one thing having constitutional rights for the Serbian minority
0:05:34 > 0:05:38written in the constitution but another is safeguarding their
0:05:38 > 0:05:42security. We did see a few weeks ago a member of the Kosovo community
0:05:42 > 0:05:48gunned down on the streets of Mitchell Beazer.That is very tragic
0:05:48 > 0:05:56news. The Deputy Prime Minister is a Serb, and I have many colleagues I
0:05:56 > 0:06:06work with from the north. But in this case, nobody is pointing
0:06:06 > 0:06:14fingers.But let me quote to you another significant Kosovo
0:06:14 > 0:06:18politician who has said that the government wants to integrate the
0:06:18 > 0:06:26land but not integrate us, the people, the Serbs.This government
0:06:26 > 0:06:33is doing, I would say, honest work to respect Kosovo Serbs and
0:06:33 > 0:06:41integrate the people, we work with the people...In that case, why did
0:06:41 > 0:06:45you, the Prime Minister, blocks the planned Association of Serb
0:06:45 > 0:06:48municipalities. The plans for Serbian communities, why did you
0:06:48 > 0:07:00like that?If you look at the other cases, it did not function that
0:07:00 > 0:07:07well. The cessation of municipalities, it was presented. In
0:07:07 > 0:07:19fact, our constitutional accord has ruled on that. We are able to
0:07:19 > 0:07:23implement the cessation based on our Constitution.Essentially, you need
0:07:23 > 0:07:27a settlement of your hostile relationship with Serbia and Serbia
0:07:27 > 0:07:31needs at too, without it Serbia cannot join the EU in 2025 and you
0:07:31 > 0:07:37cannot get recognition and a place at the European table. You both need
0:07:37 > 0:07:47it. You prepared to cede territory, a little portion of territory in the
0:07:47 > 0:07:52north of your nation, seed it to Serbia to settle this dispute?You
0:07:52 > 0:07:59are just throwing away everything in the past. The pieces because of
0:07:59 > 0:08:08people, not land or territories. What is the answer to my question?
0:08:08 > 0:08:12-- peace. Can you imagine giving away territory to make final peace
0:08:12 > 0:08:17with Serbia?My answer is this, this has led to war is in the Balkans.
0:08:17 > 0:08:26I'm not in favour of another one. We are a victim, as Kosovo Albanians.
0:08:26 > 0:08:32The whole wall stood with what happened at the time. In changing
0:08:32 > 0:08:39borders and mixing territories, that is how tragedies happen.There is a
0:08:39 > 0:08:42window of opportunity here. We have a Prime Minister in Serbia. Yes, he
0:08:42 > 0:08:47was a nationalist in the past that he has become a man determined to
0:08:47 > 0:08:50take Serbia towards a European future. Too many people that means
0:08:50 > 0:08:54he appears more broody for compromise than Serbian leaders of
0:08:54 > 0:08:59the past. He has talked about wanting to respect the needs of
0:08:59 > 0:09:04Serbia's children rather than Serbia's ancestors. He, for you, is
0:09:04 > 0:09:09a window of opportunity. You prepared to reach out to him?We are
0:09:09 > 0:09:16interested to sit at the table, and to finish what is left between
0:09:16 > 0:09:21Kosovo and Serbia. That is the recognition. They are part of the
0:09:21 > 0:09:26forgiveness. Not to forget but forgiveness. I believe it is the
0:09:26 > 0:09:29time to do so. We are prepared for that but this is not a trade of
0:09:29 > 0:09:34territories.This is not... You are categorical about that. Some people
0:09:34 > 0:09:38talk about a land swap that you could give territory to the Serbs
0:09:38 > 0:09:43and they can give territory to you which is majority Kosovo Albanians.
0:09:43 > 0:09:48The borders in the Balkans, and today the territories are a result
0:09:48 > 0:09:51of some wars from the past. If we open that question it is a
0:09:51 > 0:09:59never-ending story. We still have rules, after the last tragedies. We
0:09:59 > 0:10:04don't want to forget that.You talk about wounds and tragedies. Another
0:10:04 > 0:10:12element of Kosovo moving forward is your nation truly accounting for the
0:10:12 > 0:10:17recent past. This raises the issue of justice. For crimes committed
0:10:17 > 0:10:28during the period of war in the late 90s. You appeared to support a
0:10:28 > 0:10:34special legal chamber created in 2015 by the Kosovan parliament, to
0:10:34 > 0:10:37investigate historical crimes. Then, you appear to change your mind. You
0:10:37 > 0:10:44told the press in January that you were not for the court, in
0:10:44 > 0:10:47opposition, and against it now. Be clear with me, are you for or
0:10:47 > 0:10:57against the court?Kosovo was open and transparent, for the past and
0:10:57 > 0:11:04for the truth. And for the right of victims and the rights of people and
0:11:04 > 0:11:10all allegations. The United Nations administrated Kosovo for nine years
0:11:10 > 0:11:13and established courts, prosecutors and prosecuted many Kosovo
0:11:13 > 0:11:17Albanians.But people watching and listening may not know that this
0:11:17 > 0:11:20special chamber, the Kosovan Parliament approved of it, would sit
0:11:20 > 0:11:26in The Hague but follow Kosovan law and would consider specific crimes
0:11:26 > 0:11:30committed in the past. Are you for or against the court?People in the
0:11:30 > 0:11:37world deserve to know, to realise, that this is the fourth operation to
0:11:37 > 0:11:46bring justice to Kosovo. The first was the United Nations, the second
0:11:46 > 0:11:50was former Yugoslavia...You have two trials.In the name of justice
0:11:50 > 0:11:54on behalf of my nation.That was run by the International criminal Court
0:11:54 > 0:12:01at The Hague.The third is the European rule of law...You are not
0:12:01 > 0:12:11answering my question...On the fourth one, it was judged only
0:12:11 > 0:12:15Albanians, only for selected crimes, and it was out of the country.I
0:12:15 > 0:12:20would prefer that. But it was ratified by the Kosovan Parliament?
0:12:20 > 0:12:29Fair enough.Now you are denying... No, not deniable. The court exists.
0:12:29 > 0:12:35But it is good to realise when this quarter rights, and the criticism of
0:12:35 > 0:12:42this court, there is criticism of this court.More to the point there
0:12:42 > 0:12:48is criticism of this court from your own brother. Like you he was a KLA
0:12:48 > 0:12:52fighter and recently he has said that KLA fighters will prevent
0:12:52 > 0:12:56action by anyone who intends to profit politically from making
0:12:56 > 0:13:00arrests in this special court. It sounds like you and your family are
0:13:00 > 0:13:06doing whatever it takes to block these activities.Not true at all.
0:13:06 > 0:13:13We respect the rule of law. I did it in my time, my brother did it. We
0:13:13 > 0:13:21went to trial and court...He is not prepared to go through this one.Why
0:13:21 > 0:13:25profit politically, if you are talking about justice or political
0:13:25 > 0:13:30profit? There is something in these answers.It has become a big issue,
0:13:30 > 0:13:35inside and outside of the country. I will quote you the head of the
0:13:35 > 0:13:41Kosovo Democratic Institute. He says the government shows immaturity and
0:13:41 > 0:13:46signs of panic and is risking isolation from the international
0:13:46 > 0:13:51community who helped us declare independence in the first place.
0:13:51 > 0:13:56Umm, that is exaggerated! This is not the case of the government of
0:13:56 > 0:14:00Kosovo. It is a sustainable government. A very serious one. But
0:14:00 > 0:14:06it reflects the feelings and beliefs of the nation. It is not always the
0:14:06 > 0:14:10international community. Everything they did, they did it right.The
0:14:10 > 0:14:16Americans and Europeans are people who helped deliver Kosovan
0:14:16 > 0:14:19independence and... Sorry, to continue, they say they condemn what
0:14:19 > 0:14:24they see as backtracking on the special chamber court and they say
0:14:24 > 0:14:28there will be "Severe consequences for Kosovo's International and
0:14:28 > 0:14:32Yerevan antic integration if the government continues on this course.
0:14:32 > 0:14:39Can I put it more clearly? MPs of our Parliament have criticised and
0:14:39 > 0:14:43have different views to this court. As a government, we respect
0:14:43 > 0:14:47obligations that have been taken but we have a respect for that criticism
0:14:47 > 0:14:55as well. It is a well founded criticism. In the 21st-century, it
0:14:55 > 0:15:00is a mono ethnic court.And not entirely clear with what you are
0:15:00 > 0:15:06saying. You prepared to accept the authority of this court and accept
0:15:06 > 0:15:09its judgments?We always have been. The Kosovo government and
0:15:09 > 0:15:19institution always has been. After any result, we stay under
0:15:19 > 0:15:32obligations that we have taken but we take obligation of the court. We
0:15:32 > 0:15:36have one system operating out of the country, it is the fourth operation
0:15:36 > 0:15:41to bring justice. The second is mono ethnic.And what about the specific
0:15:41 > 0:15:47allegations but towards the Council of Europe, which may well end up
0:15:47 > 0:15:52before the special chamber. The KLA, you were a senior commander of it in
0:15:52 > 0:15:58Kosovo during the war, the KLA were involved not just in murders,
0:15:58 > 0:16:04torture, rape victims, but also in organised in people smuggling and
0:16:04 > 0:16:09drugrunning -- rape of victims. Should those allegations be aired in
0:16:09 > 0:16:14this special court?Many people would find the verdict in my case.
0:16:14 > 0:16:22You would see what an honourable Judge says in the end of a second
0:16:22 > 0:16:25trial, they proved that the KLA were not doing that. They did not find
0:16:25 > 0:16:33that we have been doing that. I believe the allegations are false.
0:16:33 > 0:16:38Let's talk about the different ways on how the international community
0:16:38 > 0:16:41are concerned about backtracking from your government. It concerns
0:16:41 > 0:16:45the separate border dispute that you have with Montenegrin. It looked as
0:16:45 > 0:16:51though you, the Kosovan government in 2015, were prepared to reach a
0:16:51 > 0:16:55deal with Montenegrin -- Montenegrin. I believe that involved
0:16:55 > 0:17:03sending back several thousand hectares back to the Montenegro
0:17:03 > 0:17:07government. You said that the border agreement was not transparent to our
0:17:07 > 0:17:17Parliament. Does that mean you no longer accept the agreement?We have
0:17:17 > 0:17:23reached consensus with the Montenegrin government, they have
0:17:23 > 0:17:29agreed to review and correct in two directions where the dispute was. It
0:17:29 > 0:17:35gives enough arguments to vote it in our Parliament. In the next few days
0:17:35 > 0:17:41hopefully we will be coming together to rectify it.Until you ratify, the
0:17:41 > 0:17:46European Union has said it will not consider these liberalisation is for
0:17:46 > 0:17:53Kosovans who want to travel inside of the EU. There is linkage, once
0:17:53 > 0:17:56again the Europeans are judging the Kosovan government of failing to
0:17:56 > 0:18:00live up to international standards and unless you do so, your
0:18:00 > 0:18:03relationship with the EU will clearly suffer. It is very strange,
0:18:03 > 0:18:13the fact that that would happen, Visa liberalisation. We are members
0:18:13 > 0:18:17of Nato and still have disputes on their own borders -- they are
0:18:17 > 0:18:24members of Nato. It is very unfair. But cat Brussels attitude to
0:18:24 > 0:18:30Brussels -- but if you look at brussels attitude to Kosovo today,
0:18:30 > 0:18:34you are the poorest country in Europe. According to the CIA fact
0:18:34 > 0:18:38book, they release one every year looking at the basics of every
0:18:38 > 0:18:45economy, they reckon that your youth unemployment is close to 60%. Your
0:18:45 > 0:18:49average income is a tiny fraction of the EU average. Your economy is so
0:18:49 > 0:18:56far behind, it is, again, very hard to see how you could ever get close
0:18:56 > 0:19:01to acceptable convergence.OK... In Europe, you are becoming older and
0:19:01 > 0:19:08older. You are the youngest nation in Europe, as population. And many
0:19:08 > 0:19:12people had to leave the country because there are no jobs?In the
0:19:12 > 0:19:18case of producing an offer in your countries, in Kosovo, they have
0:19:18 > 0:19:26potential. In energy, in the mining sector, in food production and in
0:19:26 > 0:19:30innovation. Young and talented people. They are like that because
0:19:30 > 0:19:37we inherited no economy at all. The war devastated Kosovo. No
0:19:37 > 0:19:44infrastructure at all. Today, we are nearly finishing the highways of our
0:19:44 > 0:19:49country, railways need to be constructive. Water and electricity
0:19:49 > 0:19:54supply to families, not just for houses and businesses but for the
0:19:54 > 0:20:03whole country. We have an investment in energy of 1,000,000,000.3. -- 1.3
0:20:03 > 0:20:09billion. Kosovo is struggling but here we are.Yes, and with an
0:20:09 > 0:20:13economy that is far behind the European standard, we can agree. But
0:20:13 > 0:20:18also an economy that has laid low by corruption. Corruption is killing
0:20:18 > 0:20:24economic growth in your country. I mean, the UK ambassador recently
0:20:24 > 0:20:30gave a presentation in Pristina, in which he said "There was no need for
0:20:30 > 0:20:35me to explain just how bad corruption is in Kosovo. You all
0:20:35 > 0:20:39know this phenomenon roots democracy, prevents any economic
0:20:39 > 0:20:49development and undermines where so many of your people gave sacrifice".
0:20:49 > 0:20:54In the latest ranking of countries, we have improved by ten positions.
0:20:54 > 0:20:57Kosovo has improved in the fight against corruption.That is from
0:20:57 > 0:21:05appalling took what Mike Riddle not -- that is from appalling to not
0:21:05 > 0:21:12quite so appalling.I am six months in the job. My commitment is only to
0:21:12 > 0:21:19make a difference and difference is happening now. Kosovo has a rule of
0:21:19 > 0:21:23law that fights corruption and fights crime, and fights against
0:21:23 > 0:21:27other threats that the world is today facing.Another way in which
0:21:27 > 0:21:34Europe looks at Kosovo and has concerns is on security issues.
0:21:34 > 0:21:37Kosovo is a very interesting European nation because you are 90%,
0:21:37 > 0:21:42or more, Muslim. He had very explicitly said in the past that
0:21:42 > 0:21:46there has been a problem with radicalisation of some people in
0:21:46 > 0:21:50Kosovo, some of them, hundreds of them, went to fight with so-called
0:21:50 > 0:21:55Islamic state in Iraq and Syria. Your security agencies have said
0:21:55 > 0:22:02that you are concerned that some have returned to your territory. How
0:22:02 > 0:22:06can you reassure Europe that your government is on top of this
0:22:06 > 0:22:09potentially very grave security problem? Not just for yourselves,
0:22:09 > 0:22:15but for Europe?Kosovo is multi-year -- multiethnic. A majority
0:22:15 > 0:22:21Albanians. We have had questions since Ottoman times. We adopted the
0:22:21 > 0:22:27Muslim religion -- Chris Jones. We are very much linked to our own
0:22:27 > 0:22:34national identity as being Albanian. It is an identity that we represent
0:22:34 > 0:22:38ourselves with that.Let me ask you bluntly, you see the nature of the
0:22:38 > 0:22:43rise of populism and nationalism in many different parts of the European
0:22:43 > 0:22:50Union. Do you believe there is a prejudice or a bias against Kosovo,
0:22:50 > 0:22:55because it is predominantly Muslim? No, no. I think in Europe, they
0:22:55 > 0:22:59realise who we are. We are Albanians, we are the nation of
0:22:59 > 0:23:17Mother Teresa, of Dua Lipa, no.This was said by the EU special
0:23:17 > 0:23:20representative in Pristina. She said there is just the other day of
0:23:20 > 0:23:25Kosovo. She said there is a window of opportunity here, if the
0:23:25 > 0:23:31political establishment really takes to heart the European reform agenda.
0:23:31 > 0:23:37But it is not a very big window. Do you think your country is capable of
0:23:37 > 0:23:45seizing this moment, this opportunity?I think we are to be
0:23:45 > 0:23:50applauded as a nation. To see the war 20 years ago and where we are
0:23:50 > 0:23:55today, it proved that we do find a way, even though it is very
0:23:55 > 0:24:01difficult. Our challenges are specific but we find a way to become
0:24:01 > 0:24:08a member of the EU family, and the United Nations.You don't ever doubt
0:24:08 > 0:24:13that, even after ten difficult years, no doubts?No. Kosovo will be
0:24:13 > 0:24:21a member of the EU and Nato, and the United Nations.We have two end
0:24:21 > 0:24:25there, but Ramush Haradinaj, thank you very much for being on Hardtalk.
0:24:25 > 0:24:35Thank you.