0:00:00 > 0:00:01beast from the East. That is all from me, stay with us on BBC News.
0:00:01 > 0:00:05Just after half past midnight here on BBC News, it is time for
0:00:05 > 0:00:08Hardtalk.
0:00:08 > 0:00:11Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:11 > 0:00:16Professional politics is a hothouse world where the inhabitants can seem
0:00:16 > 0:00:19far removed from the rough edges of modern life.
0:00:19 > 0:00:23So maybe it's no surprise that there is a disconnect
0:00:23 > 0:00:28between our governors and the governed.
0:00:28 > 0:00:30My guest today is a rarity, a British MP who was
0:00:31 > 0:00:32a front-line soldier.
0:00:32 > 0:00:36Johnny Mercer served three tours in Afghanistan.
0:00:36 > 0:00:38He entered politics to make a difference on issues
0:00:38 > 0:00:41he cared about, defence, veteran's welfare,
0:00:41 > 0:00:43and mental health.
0:00:43 > 0:00:51But in a Britain preoccupied with Brexit, is anyone listening?
0:01:15 > 0:01:17Johnny Mercer, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:17 > 0:01:19Thanks.
0:01:19 > 0:01:23It was quite a leap that you made four or so years ago,
0:01:23 > 0:01:27when you left the British Army and decided that you
0:01:27 > 0:01:28would enter politics.
0:01:28 > 0:01:33Has that transition been harder or actually easier
0:01:33 > 0:01:36than you thought it would be?
0:01:36 > 0:01:39Well, I didn't actually have any preconceptions around
0:01:39 > 0:01:44going into politics because I knew nothing about it.
0:01:44 > 0:01:45I'd never voted, been to Westminster...
0:01:45 > 0:01:46Never voted?
0:01:46 > 0:01:50Never voted, and I know that's not a great thing to have done.
0:01:50 > 0:01:54But when you're going through the process of war fighting,
0:01:54 > 0:01:56you will go anyway, whoever the Government is.
0:01:56 > 0:01:59One reason or another, you feel disconnected from that,
0:01:59 > 0:02:04and I never got around to voting, I never had an interest in politics.
0:02:04 > 0:02:08So I didn't have any preconceptions about what it would be like.
0:02:08 > 0:02:10Aspects of it have certainly been difficult, some
0:02:10 > 0:02:14aspects, not so much.
0:02:14 > 0:02:17But it is a journey, and I learn something everyday.
0:02:17 > 0:02:21We'll talk about the journey and what you have experienced on it.
0:02:21 > 0:02:25But I am interested to know why, when you quite explicitly say that
0:02:25 > 0:02:30you were pretty unimpressed with the politicians that
0:02:30 > 0:02:31you met as a soldier, foreign secretaries,
0:02:31 > 0:02:36even Prime Ministers would come out to Afghanistan on morale boosting
0:02:36 > 0:02:39visits to the troops, you say that frankly,
0:02:39 > 0:02:42you did not think they knew much about what was going on,
0:02:42 > 0:02:46and you felt they were indulging in pretty simple rhetoric.
0:02:46 > 0:02:49So, what on earth attracted you to that career?
0:02:49 > 0:02:51Because actually, when I looked at them, and you're right,
0:02:51 > 0:02:54I felt like that when I looked at these people, and there
0:02:54 > 0:02:58is nothing bad about it, there just wasn't that connection
0:02:58 > 0:03:02between the military and political systems.
0:03:02 > 0:03:05We saw the symptoms of that through Iraq and Afghanistan,
0:03:05 > 0:03:10whether it was a good tactics, leaving too early or so on.
0:03:10 > 0:03:15But I thought if I wanted to change something,
0:03:15 > 0:03:16I have to get elected.
0:03:16 > 0:03:19Whatever I say, they have the power to make executive decisions,
0:03:19 > 0:03:22because they're elected.
0:03:22 > 0:03:25So if I want to make a decision or change something,
0:03:25 > 0:03:27I have to get elected, whether that is the military,
0:03:28 > 0:03:29mental health...
0:03:29 > 0:03:31And those coalesce in your mind.
0:03:31 > 0:03:36Look, it was not a pleasant realisation that I was going
0:03:36 > 0:03:39to become a member of Parliament, it is not something I thought about,
0:03:39 > 0:03:41and there are certainly aspects that are difficult
0:03:41 > 0:03:42to get your head around.
0:03:42 > 0:03:46Is that not disingenuous?
0:03:46 > 0:03:56You can fall into politics, you have to fight hard
0:03:57 > 0:03:59to win your nomination for your seat, a lot
0:03:59 > 0:04:01of doorstep campaigning to get elected, it's not something
0:04:01 > 0:04:02happens by accident.
0:04:02 > 0:04:04It is not about politics, it's not about getting
0:04:04 > 0:04:05a career in politics.
0:04:05 > 0:04:08It's about using politics as a vehicle to get things done.
0:04:08 > 0:04:11And when you actually believe in something and want to change it,
0:04:11 > 0:04:14you genuinely think that you can change it, that's why you do it.
0:04:14 > 0:04:16So that commitment is huge.
0:04:16 > 0:04:18You have written a powerful book about your military experience.
0:04:18 > 0:04:21It seems the Army meant so much to you, it was almost a family?
0:04:21 > 0:04:24I think it is a fair point.
0:04:24 > 0:04:30When you join as a young person, man or woman, I think a lot has been
0:04:30 > 0:04:36said about the military over the last few years,
0:04:36 > 0:04:40lots of mistakes have been made, but one thing that still gets me
0:04:40 > 0:04:44is the journey you can go on.
0:04:44 > 0:04:47You can join as a young man, what it gets is a raw product
0:04:47 > 0:04:49from society and what turns into afterwards is a life
0:04:49 > 0:04:50enhancing experience.
0:04:50 > 0:04:52And it certainly was that for me.
0:04:52 > 0:04:55I'm made great friends, I had great expenses, and yes,
0:04:55 > 0:04:57I turned from a boy into a man in the military.
0:04:57 > 0:05:00I'm not ashamed of that, I was proud of it, something
0:05:00 > 0:05:04I was proud to do at the time.
0:05:04 > 0:05:06I used the word family advisedly, because you have also been
0:05:06 > 0:05:08surprisingly honest and frank about a difficult
0:05:08 > 0:05:10upbringing you had.
0:05:10 > 0:05:13Your family was very large, you are one of eight children,
0:05:13 > 0:05:18very religious parents.
0:05:18 > 0:05:22And it seems it was somewhat chaotic, somewhat hot-tempered,
0:05:22 > 0:05:25and you clearly had some mental health issues as a child.
0:05:25 > 0:05:32Because it seems you did not find it a very stable family environment?
0:05:32 > 0:05:33I think that is fair.
0:05:33 > 0:05:37I don't want to get into too much, but it was an unstable environment,
0:05:37 > 0:05:42and that caused problems, as it would for anyone.
0:05:42 > 0:05:50Whether for myself or for my wider family, I think we all cope
0:05:50 > 0:05:53with that in its own way.
0:05:53 > 0:05:56It was very clear that that part of your life is very formative,
0:05:56 > 0:05:57and it certainly was that for me.
0:05:57 > 0:06:02But I left that behind and I joined the Army, and the army was...
0:06:02 > 0:06:05You are being terribly British about it, because I can tell
0:06:05 > 0:06:07you don't want to talk about it.
0:06:07 > 0:06:12Although you have written about it, which is why raised it.
0:06:12 > 0:06:14But you say for example, that religion dominated every
0:06:14 > 0:06:18aspect of life at home, your father, you felt was full
0:06:18 > 0:06:22of guilt and expressed that sometimes in very hot tempered,
0:06:22 > 0:06:24difficult reactions to things.
0:06:24 > 0:06:28And I am wondering whether the Army was important to you because it
0:06:28 > 0:06:36actually, in a funny way, despite serving in war zones
0:06:36 > 0:06:39on that it gave you a stability that you hadn't had as a child that
0:06:39 > 0:06:42you desperately missed?
0:06:42 > 0:06:43Absolutely.
0:06:43 > 0:06:46And a child growing up, you need your left and right,
0:06:46 > 0:06:48your boundaries, your stability, and that predictability
0:06:48 > 0:06:52is really important.
0:06:52 > 0:06:56Yes, the military provided me with that in some ways.
0:06:56 > 0:06:59This is maybe a difficult question to answer, but when you reflect
0:06:59 > 0:07:02on yourself as a teenager, and I know you spent time
0:07:02 > 0:07:06at boarding school, do you think you were mentally unwell?
0:07:06 > 0:07:12Without a doubt, I think I struggled with aspects
0:07:12 > 0:07:14of my own behaviour, certainly around
0:07:14 > 0:07:18obsessive-compulsive disorder.
0:07:18 > 0:07:21And that was an issue that I recognised in myself,
0:07:21 > 0:07:23and I received a bit of help for.
0:07:23 > 0:07:26Look, it was part of my history, absolutely, it was one of the coping
0:07:27 > 0:07:30mechanisms that I had growing up.
0:07:30 > 0:07:33It was something that taught me a lot about myself,
0:07:33 > 0:07:36about what makes me tick, what motivates me,
0:07:36 > 0:07:37what I struggle to cope with.
0:07:37 > 0:07:41And I think I became stronger for it, there's this perception
0:07:41 > 0:07:45around mental health at the moment, that you get a mental health
0:07:45 > 0:07:48problem, and that's it.
0:07:48 > 0:07:51There is an area of management to it, it is an ongoing thing
0:07:51 > 0:07:56you need to work on, but you can get better
0:07:56 > 0:08:01and go on to have a life completely uninhibited.
0:08:01 > 0:08:07And that is certainly what the Army did for me, and moving on from that.
0:08:07 > 0:08:16It is very striking, a relatively struggled -- troubled kid ends up
0:08:16 > 0:08:20commanding men on a ferociously difficult front line in Afghanistan
0:08:20 > 0:08:26on three separate tours of duty. Obviously facing fire numerous
0:08:26 > 0:08:30times, and you actually had extraordinarily difficult
0:08:30 > 0:08:33experiences with, for example, one of your best mates in the Army being
0:08:33 > 0:08:39shot through the head in front of you. Did you than reexperience some
0:08:39 > 0:08:44of the mental issues you have had before, or did you cope?Is odd
0:08:44 > 0:08:48because I know people go through these things, poster manic stress
0:08:48 > 0:08:54has different effects on different people. Jim Mattis in the state to
0:08:54 > 0:08:57command a lot of soldiers going through rack and Selma -- so long,
0:08:57 > 0:09:03there is poster manic growth where you don't like of these experience
0:09:03 > 0:09:07can iron you out. But you realise you can cope with expenses. I
0:09:07 > 0:09:11realise I had a tough time growing up, but I have to confess that
0:09:11 > 0:09:15during my period on operations and commanding up operations, there are
0:09:15 > 0:09:19aspects of it that I found extremely difficult to readjust to,
0:09:19 > 0:09:24particularly when I came home. But I did not suffer with these issues, in
0:09:24 > 0:09:27a way, that they be stronger, and they certainly made me who I am
0:09:27 > 0:09:32today. In a way, I think they provided a bit of a platform to go
0:09:32 > 0:09:38to what I'm doing now. There are certainly aspects of, things you
0:09:38 > 0:09:43acquire around as is, resilience and loyalty, looking after people, that
0:09:43 > 0:09:48you employ now. So now I find that those operations were a better rock,
0:09:48 > 0:09:52informed me as a young man.Again, having looked at the book, we were
0:09:52 > 0:10:00warriors, your memoir of conflict, it is extort Barry. You said nothing
0:10:00 > 0:10:03prepares you for the repeat expenses of war. At the end, I felt
0:10:03 > 0:10:10estimated, completely destroyed inside.And I did, but this was
0:10:10 > 0:10:13after a prolonged period of operation. Citizen born to remember
0:10:13 > 0:10:20in Afghanistan, we were putting British ships through cycles we had
0:10:20 > 0:10:24not seen before. Back in World War II, there were lots more units,
0:10:24 > 0:10:29people cycling out of conflicts. In Afghanistan, we were asking people
0:10:29 > 0:10:33to go Amanda lines for six or seven months at a time, their compact --
0:10:33 > 0:10:38conducted two patrols a day. That is a lot of conflict -- on that. I do
0:10:38 > 0:10:41not think that is too much because we are professional soldiers, we are
0:10:41 > 0:10:45ready to do it. But I do think we need to manage the stress, not only
0:10:45 > 0:10:49in theatre, but when they come home. And that is a duty for everyone, not
0:10:49 > 0:10:54just the people who get a hard time, but all through the chain of
0:10:54 > 0:10:58command. We have to be cognizant of some people's experiences, people
0:10:58 > 0:11:02who are different to the map -- best majority. One out of nine soldiers
0:11:02 > 0:11:07who deployed did not leave the wire, and not all those who left the wire
0:11:07 > 0:11:10went into particularly difficult patrols. So there was a broad
0:11:10 > 0:11:13variety of experience, some of us are addicted in and of the wedge on
0:11:13 > 0:11:18that one, and I do think we have a duty to those who struggle with that
0:11:18 > 0:11:21to look after them, that is one of the things that propelled me into
0:11:21 > 0:11:25politics.When you say leave the wire, you mean leave the safety of
0:11:25 > 0:11:35bases and get out in to the fire?Do expenses you had, one where you
0:11:35 > 0:11:39found yourself isolated and alone in a firefight, with a bullet to tell
0:11:39 > 0:11:43them firefight -- Taliban fighters trying to kill you, and Dracula
0:11:43 > 0:11:47sleeve described -- survived, but you describe how utterly frightening
0:11:47 > 0:11:51it was and how you shook and shook when you emerged from it. The other
0:11:51 > 0:11:58one was the death of your friend, who as I said it was shot and died
0:11:58 > 0:12:06in the battlefield. I get the feeling that you do sometimes wonder
0:12:06 > 0:12:09whether all of that was worth that, given what we see today in
0:12:09 > 0:12:18Afghanistan.Do you?Yes, I in this country, this is why I came into
0:12:18 > 0:12:24politics, because I do feel we have lost the ability to have the courage
0:12:24 > 0:12:28and backbone to see these things through to an end state where we are
0:12:28 > 0:12:31happy with. If you look at our withdrawal from Afghanistan, it is
0:12:31 > 0:12:37like a rock. It was calendar based, not conditions based, not like how
0:12:37 > 0:12:40you should conduct an operation. Largely what we have done has been
0:12:40 > 0:12:43around the British electoral cycle, and for those of us who fought, that
0:12:43 > 0:12:47is very painful to take, because we are totally committed to the mission
0:12:47 > 0:12:52and try to achieve a conditions based...Maybe the mission is
0:12:52 > 0:12:55unachievable? May be going in with the view that you can somehow
0:12:55 > 0:13:01fundamentally change a society is misplaced to begin with?I do not
0:13:01 > 0:13:04think it is misplaced, but you have to commit fully to the task. Whilst
0:13:04 > 0:13:08you are going to have to get the security aspect of things right so
0:13:08 > 0:13:12that law and order can take hold, you have to go harder after
0:13:12 > 0:13:15corruption. You cannot allow officials to be elected who have no
0:13:15 > 0:13:19credibility and cannot bring the people with them. Counterinsurgency
0:13:19 > 0:13:23warfare works, but it has to be done properly, it must be resourced
0:13:23 > 0:13:32properly, but ultimately politically, it must be committed
0:13:32 > 0:13:35to. And that is where we filled -- failed in Iraq and Afghanistan.A
0:13:35 > 0:13:37recent survey said that 70% of the territory of the nation is out
0:13:37 > 0:13:40operationally open to the Taliban -- Taliban, the American are ram the
0:13:40 > 0:13:42presents, there is question over whether the British should follow
0:13:42 > 0:13:46and support in the revving of operations. Would you think?I think
0:13:46 > 0:13:52we should, we have been very comfortable in this country, we have
0:13:52 > 0:13:55almost become isolationist. You only have to look at Syria to see how
0:13:55 > 0:14:00badly wrong you can get it when you don't intervene. Intervention is not
0:14:00 > 0:14:03pretty, we have this idea and our head that were in conflict is as
0:14:03 > 0:14:08binary, and it is not. It is being sold as I lie to the British people,
0:14:08 > 0:14:12it is a messy business, but I do not think standing on the sidelines and
0:14:12 > 0:14:16letting these things happen like they are in Afghanistan is the right
0:14:16 > 0:14:20answer.You say that, and a corollary of that is that more men
0:14:20 > 0:14:24go into the danger zone and face the very real prospect of not coming
0:14:24 > 0:14:29back. And yet you say it when you clearly feel that today, there is
0:14:29 > 0:14:34something deeply dysfunctional about the way the United Kingdom treats
0:14:34 > 0:14:39not just its active soldiers, but its veterans as well? The so-called
0:14:39 > 0:14:42military government seems to be broken, in your view?Absolutely. I
0:14:42 > 0:14:46think there is a serious issue in this country around its relationship
0:14:46 > 0:14:52with the military. Veterans, let's talk about them. There is a
0:14:52 > 0:14:54completeness reception around veterans, almost anybody who has had
0:14:54 > 0:14:59anything to do with the military, it is statistically impossible for
0:14:59 > 0:15:05anyone who's says they have PTSD to have PTSD, it has become a catchall
0:15:05 > 0:15:08environment for any number of problems that people will hit during
0:15:08 > 0:15:11their life. And the problem with that is that if we do not deal with
0:15:11 > 0:15:14that problem, we will not get to those who are genuinely ill that
0:15:14 > 0:15:20need our helps -- held as a result of those operations. And I think we
0:15:20 > 0:15:24have lost an opportunity, through this Afghanistan and Iraq period,
0:15:24 > 0:15:28these great numbers of veterans are coming out and really gripping this
0:15:28 > 0:15:33debate and changing it fundamentally like Americans after Vietnam.
0:15:33 > 0:15:36There's no question that the American mindset towards it's
0:15:36 > 0:15:39veterans is very different than that of Britain. But you seem to be
0:15:39 > 0:15:46saying we in Britain are somewhat hung up on, for example, exit --
0:15:46 > 0:15:50investigating alleged abuses by the military. We know what happened in a
0:15:50 > 0:15:55rack and the years of UK intervention after 2003. The
0:15:55 > 0:15:59implication of what you're saying is that you do not feel it is right to
0:15:59 > 0:16:04invest -- investigate abuses by the military?I have been very clear and
0:16:04 > 0:16:07straightforward on this from the start. Anyone in my position always
0:16:07 > 0:16:13wants to see allegations and bad apples investigated, because there's
0:16:13 > 0:16:17no place for them.With respect, you said things like us, and this is a
0:16:17 > 0:16:20direct quote. The unwarranted pursuit of service personnel through
0:16:20 > 0:16:25the courts is a stain on our national character, the obsession
0:16:25 > 0:16:29with historical allegations is unacceptable.Absolutely right,
0:16:29 > 0:16:31because these individuals are going through an investigation in the
0:16:31 > 0:16:35first place, but what is happening, people who cannot or do I want to
0:16:35 > 0:16:40accept the result of a fair and impartial investigation, and some
0:16:40 > 0:16:43will try to rewrite history, they are possibly revisiting these
0:16:43 > 0:16:48incidents to try and get some sort of retribution, and is not fair on
0:16:48 > 0:16:56the individuals.For example, those who have died in custody...He is a
0:16:56 > 0:17:01case of his own, and I have those who... I understand the case of the
0:17:01 > 0:17:06last week, that -- someone died, and that is not lost on me. But the
0:17:06 > 0:17:08reaction to that should not be investigations over 15 years into
0:17:08 > 0:17:13the same soldiers about the same incident.But it gets to the heart
0:17:13 > 0:17:16of the difference between the United States and UK. We in the UK hold our
0:17:16 > 0:17:22military to the very highest of standards. And the fact that there
0:17:22 > 0:17:28are historical and Dutch investigations into alleged abuses
0:17:28 > 0:17:32into Iraq and Afghanistan, it is something we should be proud of, not
0:17:32 > 0:17:35ashamed of.I totally dispute the fact that Americans do not hold
0:17:35 > 0:17:38themselves to the highest standards, that is not what this is about. We
0:17:38 > 0:17:42do as well, you only have to look at recent history as a how we have held
0:17:42 > 0:17:46our servicemen to account. I agree and encourage that, I do not know
0:17:46 > 0:17:49anyone serving food does not encourage that, because we go on
0:17:49 > 0:17:53operations to work hard and up of old rule of law. This is separate,
0:17:53 > 0:17:57this is an attempt to continually pursue these individuals, sometimes
0:17:57 > 0:18:01years after they have left service, and the Government has let this
0:18:01 > 0:18:07industry spawned, and it has ruined lives across this country.Final
0:18:07 > 0:18:10thought, I do not know if you saw the very end of last year, the chief
0:18:10 > 0:18:16prosecutor of the international criminal Court in The Hague said she
0:18:16 > 0:18:20believes there is a reasonable basis to continue to believe that UK
0:18:20 > 0:18:26soldiers committed war crimes against detainees are in Iraq
0:18:26 > 0:18:32conflict.I would say we need to see the evidence, because is has been
0:18:32 > 0:18:37investigated numbers of times. Nobody as far as I'm aware, they
0:18:37 > 0:18:41have not done a single prosecution from this. We want to see
0:18:41 > 0:18:43prosecutions, if someone has done something wrong, they must be
0:18:43 > 0:18:50prosecuted, but that is not what this is about.Many senior military
0:18:50 > 0:18:53officials, including senior serving officers, have suggested in the
0:18:53 > 0:18:56recent days and months that they believe there is a fundamental
0:18:56 > 0:19:00problem, that the British Armed Forces are being hollowed out,
0:19:00 > 0:19:0582,000 serving soldiers, concerns about the Navy and Air Force as
0:19:05 > 0:19:10well, and it is no longer a full spectrum capable fighting force.I
0:19:10 > 0:19:15think it has been a long time coming. We really struggled in Iraq,
0:19:15 > 0:19:20we struggled at the beginning in Afghanistan, the equipment a lot
0:19:20 > 0:19:23better, and I am pleased these people are speaking up, but there is
0:19:23 > 0:19:26more fun little problems than just money. If I was a Chancellor at the
0:19:26 > 0:19:29moment, and I am one of the biggest advocates of military spending, I
0:19:29 > 0:19:33would find it difficult to get the military more money at the moment
0:19:33 > 0:19:37without serious reform. The waste that goes on at the moment is still
0:19:37 > 0:19:40I watering, and we have not had this national conversation about what we
0:19:40 > 0:19:44want the Armed Forces for, what we expect them to do, what is the
0:19:44 > 0:19:48vision of a modern UK military? Until we have that, I can completely
0:19:48 > 0:19:52understand the reticence to endlessly pour money into the MOD
0:19:52 > 0:19:55when you have all these other priorities that are far more
0:19:55 > 0:19:58important to some others, and I understand that.Maybe there's not
0:19:58 > 0:20:08much right now, Central focus on these issues, because so much of the
0:20:08 > 0:20:13political oxygen is being sucked up by Brexit. You're a conservative MP,
0:20:13 > 0:20:20you say you join the party not for strong ideological reasons, but
0:20:20 > 0:20:22because you had things to accomplish. And we talked about
0:20:22 > 0:20:26those. But you have to take a view on Brexit now. Are you prepared to
0:20:26 > 0:20:30break with your party on the issue of a customs union, to say that
0:20:30 > 0:20:37Britain needs to stay inside a customs union?I am not, I'm afraid,
0:20:37 > 0:20:40I'm one of those who voted to remain, if I had my vote again, I
0:20:40 > 0:20:46would vote again, I would go to leave. I can completely see why
0:20:46 > 0:20:50swathes of this country decided they did not want to be part of the
0:20:50 > 0:20:52European Union any more, and what communities in this country have
0:20:52 > 0:20:57felt about the EU and how politicians tried to sell that to
0:20:57 > 0:21:00them, that is our job as politicians, to represent that, and
0:21:00 > 0:21:03I can see that across the country. I was in Munich two weeks ago, and
0:21:03 > 0:21:06everyone -- every time I went to the continent, I could see why this
0:21:06 > 0:21:10country wants to leave the EU. We need to get that done, if I got to
0:21:10 > 0:21:12the doors in Plymouth, lots of people think we have left already,
0:21:12 > 0:21:17and we need to get that done. If that requires leaving the customs
0:21:17 > 0:21:21union, then I'm afraid we get on with it, because people are asking
0:21:21 > 0:21:24us to answer other fundamental questions around the NHS and
0:21:24 > 0:21:27economy, and we cannot get onto those walls we continue to pick up
0:21:27 > 0:21:31the bones of Brexit.A former leader of your country, John Major, says
0:21:31 > 0:21:37this is so important that Parliament ultimately must decide the fate of
0:21:37 > 0:21:41the Brexit deal. He says it should not be decided on party lines, every
0:21:41 > 0:21:45MP should vote with their conscience in a free vote. Do you agree with
0:21:45 > 0:21:49him?Given the arithmetic of the moment, it is pretty much a free
0:21:49 > 0:21:53vote. I am a huge fan of John Major... The numbers are very slim,
0:21:53 > 0:21:58people are prepared to vote either way. You will get a situation where
0:21:58 > 0:22:01people will vote with their consciences. But what I would say on
0:22:01 > 0:22:05this is John Major, lots of respect for him and Tony Blair, who has
0:22:05 > 0:22:12spoken on this today, we have to understand that they're selling of
0:22:12 > 0:22:15this European Union contest project contributed to where we are today.
0:22:15 > 0:22:20And have people been given a view on the Lisbon treaty, had we address
0:22:20 > 0:22:24people's concerns on immigration, we would not be here. Now we need a
0:22:24 > 0:22:27fresh approach, and that strategic vision about what Brexit means in
0:22:27 > 0:22:32Britain going forward past next year.Is interesting you say we need
0:22:32 > 0:22:35a strategic vision, you're not getting that from Theresa May. Is it
0:22:35 > 0:22:39time for somebody else to lead your party?Changing Prime Minister at
0:22:39 > 0:22:43the moment is one of the worst things we could possibly do, because
0:22:43 > 0:22:48we have to form a resilient base around her so she can go to the
0:22:48 > 0:22:55European Union iMac you said this government, very recently, it is
0:22:55 > 0:22:58being too resident to meet the challenges of the day.We need
0:22:58 > 0:23:04leadership.We need leadership. Every time Theresa May does
0:23:04 > 0:23:08something, whether she says a statement about leaving the Dutch
0:23:08 > 0:23:11customs union or not leaving the customs union, she gets a lesson for
0:23:11 > 0:23:14my colleagues on one side of the argument. And she is hemmed in by
0:23:14 > 0:23:20this process. However you feel about Brexit now, any division apart from
0:23:20 > 0:23:22the premise or and away from the Government, if you are a member of
0:23:22 > 0:23:26this party, if you look at it from Europe, you can only see that we are
0:23:26 > 0:23:35going to get seen off, and we will get...Isn't the truth of -- that
0:23:35 > 0:23:38this is tearing her party apart?I do not accept that, I accept that
0:23:38 > 0:23:41there are serious challenges around this. I would not stick my hand in
0:23:41 > 0:23:45the sand and pretend it isn't. But I do not think this is a valid --
0:23:45 > 0:23:49defining issue of the Conservative Party. I know I can be alone in that
0:23:49 > 0:23:56regard, but I think being part of the modern Conservative Party is not
0:23:56 > 0:23:59getting things right, like public services, infrastructure, that is
0:23:59 > 0:24:03what being in this party is about. This is an issue we absolutely have
0:24:03 > 0:24:06to tackle because it has been going on for long before I turned up here.
0:24:06 > 0:24:16But when we get to 2019, we have to give people to vote for.Johnny
0:24:16 > 0:24:20Mercer, we must end it there, but thank you for being on Hardtalk.
0:24:20 > 0:24:32Pleasure, thanks very much.Thank you very much indeed.