0:00:00 > 0:00:03Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:14 > 0:00:21Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:22 > 0:00:27I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:27 > 0:00:35Nowadays, Arkansas, little rock, is associated with Bill Clinton. But
0:00:35 > 0:00:42little rock has another import blaze in American recent history. It was
0:00:42 > 0:00:47here at Little Rock Central High School that one of the key battles
0:00:47 > 0:00:49of the civil rights era was fought.
0:00:49 > 0:00:51In September 1957, nine African American students,
0:00:51 > 0:00:53including Elizabeth Eckford, entered the all-white
0:00:53 > 0:00:55Little Rock Central High School in Arkansas, thereby breaking
0:00:55 > 0:01:01the racial segregation barrier in US schools for the first time.
0:01:01 > 0:01:04They became known as the Little Rock Nine.
0:01:04 > 0:01:06Two years earlier the US Supreme Court had ruled segregation
0:01:06 > 0:01:13in schools to be unconstitutional.
0:01:14 > 0:01:19Little Rock Nine one of their right to enter Little Rock Central High
0:01:19 > 0:01:26School. Like Rosa Parks before them, they came to embody the bravery
0:01:26 > 0:01:31behind the civil rights struggle. My guess today is one of them.
0:01:31 > 0:01:39Elizabeth Eckford. She was just 15 in 1957 but one extraordinary
0:01:39 > 0:01:48photograph ensures that her role will be forever remembered. Little
0:01:48 > 0:01:54Rock Central High School Little Rock Central High
0:02:10 > 0:02:17Elizabeth Eckford, welcome to HARDtalk and thank you very much for
0:02:17 > 0:02:23inviting me into your home. You are very welcome. Let me begin by asking
0:02:23 > 0:02:29is something that struck me entering your house. You have had six decades
0:02:29 > 0:02:34of people eating a path to your door, wanting to talk to you
0:02:34 > 0:02:39because, as it happened, you played an extraordinary role as an
0:02:39 > 0:02:45individual in the civil rights movement in the United States. Do
0:02:45 > 0:02:51you ever sometimes wish things had gone differently? That you did not
0:02:51 > 0:03:00have all this attention?When I was a child, I was very shy, I was a
0:03:00 > 0:03:05submissive child from a household where my parents, frankly, were
0:03:05 > 0:03:15benevolent Ali oligarchs. We knew they loved us. Two jobs to take
0:03:15 > 0:03:23care, six kids to take care of. In this house? It does not look the
0:03:23 > 0:03:30same but it was the same.It was not a household that was full of
0:03:30 > 0:03:34radicalism, the beginnings of the demand for civil rights equality and
0:03:34 > 0:03:41justice. How can it be that you, as a shy, timid 15 it-year-old, ended
0:03:41 > 0:03:47up on that first list of black students who were going to roll at
0:03:47 > 0:03:55the White high school?Actually, it almost didn't happen. I asked my
0:03:55 > 0:04:03mother during spring that we had learned it would be desegregated. I
0:04:03 > 0:04:08called her the Queen of now, now that she is not around at this time
0:04:08 > 0:04:15she did not say no and that was an characteristic of my mother.This is
0:04:15 > 0:04:21what a writer who wrote a very interesting and long piece about you
0:04:21 > 0:04:26on the 50th anniversary of the events at Little Rock Central High
0:04:26 > 0:04:35School. She was painfully shy 15-year-old daughter of a hyper
0:04:35 > 0:04:42protective mother who was reluctant to challenge the racial Morais and,
0:04:42 > 0:04:49in fact, Elizabeth was the unlikeliest child blaze of all.Yes,
0:04:49 > 0:04:55not only because of my personality because of my mother. In our
0:04:55 > 0:05:02household... Both parents were always on the same page for the
0:05:02 > 0:05:09Ossetians. It took a long time to get to yes for them and so when
0:05:09 > 0:05:15names of the 17 students who were selected were in the newspaper, I
0:05:15 > 0:05:22told my parents that it was almost too late, that I had to go. The
0:05:22 > 0:05:26reason I wanted to go is that I wanted to get the best education
0:05:26 > 0:05:32possible. I had been brought up in a working-class family but I had been
0:05:32 > 0:05:36brought up with the assumption that I would go to college and I knew
0:05:36 > 0:05:43that, to do that, I needed to get scholarships.Do you think that you
0:05:43 > 0:05:50or your mum or your dad had any idea of the scale of the opposition and
0:05:50 > 0:05:58the hate and violence that could be started up by whites in this town?
0:05:58 > 0:06:04This was a total shock. Violence in schools was not part of the 1950s
0:06:04 > 0:06:13and it being allowed to continue day after day... First it was thought
0:06:13 > 0:06:19things would get better as timed to sign and when it didn't change and
0:06:19 > 0:06:26even a few students who had made friendly overtures to us now turned
0:06:26 > 0:06:31their backs so the only voices of being heard were the voices of
0:06:31 > 0:06:38people who were organised to attack us, both physically and verbally...
0:06:38 > 0:06:45Who were systematically racist.Yes stop the fall spending time thinking
0:06:45 > 0:06:49about the impact that had a new ones you started Little Rock Central High
0:06:49 > 0:06:55School, lets think about the moment that you were actually the first
0:06:55 > 0:07:00black student to appear at the high school, September four, and because
0:07:00 > 0:07:07of a bit of a mixup over timing, the other eight were not with you?But I
0:07:07 > 0:07:11was not the only one who came there independently. Terence Roberts who
0:07:11 > 0:07:17lived with him walking distance of the school, less than ten blocks
0:07:17 > 0:07:24away, walked to the school, and after he was turned away, he came
0:07:24 > 0:07:30and tried to encourage me to leave with him.The fact is, the several
0:07:30 > 0:07:35minutes, you are pretty much isolated as EU face not just one or
0:07:35 > 0:07:40to but actually a couple of 100, at least, white people - now some of
0:07:40 > 0:07:46them young and some of them old- who had gathered to try to block any
0:07:46 > 0:07:52black student getting into school that day.Yes. That was shocking.
0:07:52 > 0:07:58What was more shocking to me was that I had thought that a National
0:07:58 > 0:08:03Guard was there to protect all students, including me. They were
0:08:03 > 0:08:08there to keep me out and I did not realise that an deal I was turned
0:08:08 > 0:08:13away the third time and, even directed to go across the street,
0:08:13 > 0:08:18where those angry voices were.I have been reading some of the words
0:08:18 > 0:08:28directed at you. 15 years old, Lynch hurt, people said, they used the end
0:08:28 > 0:08:33of word. People said get out of school, go back to where you came
0:08:33 > 0:08:43from.And some said, they thought I should go back... LAUGHTER.Even
0:08:43 > 0:08:47though you were born and raised in their town.Some believe that I was
0:08:47 > 0:08:56somebody who had been brought here specifically to disrupt their
0:08:56 > 0:09:05life...To make trouble. Yes. What innocent is made of this
0:09:05 > 0:09:09particularly remarkable for you and lived through the ages as your
0:09:09 > 0:09:15experience was one photograph. The picture is remarkable for lots of
0:09:15 > 0:09:21different reasons. I mean, that dignity in your pose and the sense
0:09:21 > 0:09:26of isolation amongst all those white faces that there is in new but of
0:09:26 > 0:09:31course the other reason it is remarkable is because it captures
0:09:31 > 0:09:38the rage of one young woman, a fellow student, Hazel brand, who is
0:09:38 > 0:09:42right behind you and her face is twisted in a shout. At that time,
0:09:42 > 0:09:50were you aware of her presence and her shouting?For a long time, I did
0:09:50 > 0:09:57not know who she was and finally I did learn her first name but, after
0:09:57 > 0:10:03a while, I forgot it.The trauma you went to the top you had to turn
0:10:03 > 0:10:08back, the National guard were not going to let you in, the people did
0:10:08 > 0:10:14not want you in and you just had to turn around. I just wonder why your
0:10:14 > 0:10:20parents, at that point, did not say, enough, we cannot put Elizabeth
0:10:20 > 0:10:24through that again and we are going to have to go back on this planet
0:10:24 > 0:10:31and put back in the black school.My mother had been an accommodated to
0:10:31 > 0:10:39avoid difficulty with white people. She had grown up in Royal Arkansas
0:10:39 > 0:10:47-- rural. Their livelihood dependent on the goodwill of white people. She
0:10:47 > 0:10:51came to Little Rock as a teenager in order to get an education and she's
0:10:51 > 0:10:57not unique in that.When we get to the reality of what it was like you
0:10:57 > 0:11:01inside the school, here are some quotations I have taken for what
0:11:01 > 0:11:09were later released papers of the headmistress of the school. Later we
0:11:09 > 0:11:14found this, an account of the days after you had gone into the school.
0:11:14 > 0:11:23October 28, Elizabeth shoved in the whole weight. -- Hollway. Jostled in
0:11:23 > 0:11:33the gym. Hit with an implement. Kicked. Elisabeth punched. Elisabeth
0:11:33 > 0:11:41shoved on the stairs. Elisabeth knocked flat. That was your reality?
0:11:41 > 0:11:53Yes. And... A lot of horrible things that happened were in the gym. Our
0:11:53 > 0:12:02show is did not have petitions between people so when the water
0:12:02 > 0:12:07turned suddenly hot, very hot, I could see that the girl on the side
0:12:07 > 0:12:13and this side had turned the water. They had anticipated it, which
0:12:13 > 0:12:22brings to mind the many, many bystanders who turned their backs
0:12:22 > 0:12:30and acted like they didn't hear or see what was happening. That makes a
0:12:30 > 0:12:36person who is being attacked feel like they think we are getting what
0:12:36 > 0:12:46we deserved and that is one thing that encouraged encourages me to
0:12:46 > 0:12:51speak out, to let people know how powerful they can be in someone's
0:12:51 > 0:12:57life who is being set apart and attacked and other people are
0:12:57 > 0:13:07ignoring it. There were two students at my school who engage me in
0:13:07 > 0:13:14ordinary conversation every day.Why students?Yes to white students and
0:13:14 > 0:13:22a new debate had to have paid a price for that. I did not know what
0:13:22 > 0:13:27until many years later, I learned the girl who lived outside the town,
0:13:27 > 0:13:35on a farm, and her father hired armed guards and the boy was
0:13:35 > 0:13:41supported by his parents.The atmosphere was toxic, really. Yes.
0:13:41 > 0:13:49And this very year you have written a book about bullying and what
0:13:49 > 0:13:53children experience when they are terribly bullied. I just wonder now
0:13:53 > 0:14:01that you reflect on it, you think that, frankly, it damage due in ways
0:14:01 > 0:14:06that you have had to live with the rest of your life?Yes, that is
0:14:06 > 0:14:14apparent when I hear outside noises... But most of the attacks
0:14:14 > 0:14:19were behind me and I only turned around 1's and so I couldn't
0:14:19 > 0:14:27identify my attackers and... But what was most important to me were
0:14:27 > 0:14:38the people who supported me and that allowed me to tell students,
0:14:38 > 0:14:42particularly, that they can help somebody live another day by
0:14:42 > 0:14:51engaging them in a humane way, by acknowledging that even though they
0:14:51 > 0:14:55are different that that difference does not mean that they would hate
0:14:55 > 0:15:01them. That is very powerful to a person who is being hurt and
0:15:01 > 0:15:08isolated.
0:15:08 > 0:15:12the individual, is suffered so much on what you did was part of
0:15:12 > 0:15:15something that was much bigger, that is the struggle for civil rights and
0:15:15 > 0:15:18it was not just about the segregating the schools, it was
0:15:18 > 0:15:23about so many other things too, but do you think in a sense, I was
0:15:23 > 0:15:27sacrificed to a bigger, wider movement?It was a self-sacrifice,
0:15:27 > 0:15:32self-sacrifice. I had to make a decision every day that I was going
0:15:32 > 0:15:37to go back into that hellhole. I knew what I would be facing after a
0:15:37 > 0:15:45while. But... One of the Little Rock nine was a girl who had a hole in
0:15:45 > 0:15:53the heart, years and years before open-heart surgery was available. In
0:15:53 > 0:15:58fact, she did not have surgery until after she had graduated from college
0:15:58 > 0:16:08and she was in a crisis. So... How could I leave her behind?I wonder
0:16:08 > 0:16:12if it ultimately helps you to come back to Little Rock because after
0:16:12 > 0:16:19school, you spent quite a few years out of this place, and I know those
0:16:19 > 0:16:25were really tough years for you. Yes, I didn't know the full extent
0:16:25 > 0:16:31of, of my experiences. I did not know how damaging, how damaged I
0:16:31 > 0:16:38was. But I felt like I was fortunate to be in an environment where people
0:16:38 > 0:16:41did not know anything about my background.Rights, you want to just
0:16:41 > 0:16:47be out of that for a while.Yeah. That it was not making you happy
0:16:47 > 0:16:51because you were...No, I had periodic depression, serious
0:16:51 > 0:16:59depression. But, I never knew. I did not understand why. I did not
0:16:59 > 0:17:05understand that I have post, big stress. And they have... I did not
0:17:05 > 0:17:15start talking to students until 1990... Seven, I think.Which is 40
0:17:15 > 0:17:22years after.Yes. Well, for 30 years, none of this talk about what
0:17:22 > 0:17:27was like for in school. Most people think the worst happened on the
0:17:27 > 0:17:32first day.Yeah.But was much more than that.But also brings me to ask
0:17:32 > 0:17:36you about the complicated relationship that you developed with
0:17:36 > 0:17:41hazel Brown, who was the girl were referred to earlier in the picture,
0:17:41 > 0:17:45Liz yelling at you with hate in her face.Yes, yes. The photographer who
0:17:45 > 0:17:52took that picture introduced me to her a couple of days before the 40th
0:17:52 > 0:18:03anniversary, and... I knew that she felt a lot of trepidation about
0:18:03 > 0:18:11going public. She had told her sons, who were the older kid, about the
0:18:11 > 0:18:20picture that they would encounter. -- kids. To prepare them, but I
0:18:20 > 0:18:25remember being with her family members and I remember her daughter
0:18:25 > 0:18:30saying, that she was looking through a book and she said that is my
0:18:30 > 0:18:40mother. She had not been prepared. But the point is, Hazel wanted...
0:18:40 > 0:18:47She wanted... She wanted to reach out to you.Yes, she had called me
0:18:47 > 0:18:52in 1963, during the summer, to apologise. But she never said what
0:18:52 > 0:18:58she was apologising for.How do you, what do you mean by that? You think
0:18:58 > 0:19:02that somehow she wanted you to forgive her that she did not want to
0:19:02 > 0:19:07delve deep into... Where she was out on what she had done?Yes, yes, yes.
0:19:07 > 0:19:14In fact, I began to realise, we spent two years together.Umina
0:19:14 > 0:19:22after 97.Yes. Gradually I began to realise that she was not
0:19:22 > 0:19:28acknowledging the full extent of what she had done.-- you mean.She
0:19:28 > 0:19:33told one reporter that life is more than a moment and she should not be
0:19:33 > 0:19:40judged just on that moment, but also I had acquired is three different
0:19:40 > 0:19:49videotapes of her having some moments. -- had acquired three. She
0:19:49 > 0:19:56eventually said that she had amnesia about the past.Umina about other
0:19:56 > 0:20:01incidents where she was expressing racism?Yeah, and the parents
0:20:01 > 0:20:07removed her from Central sometime during March, no, I am sorry, much
0:20:07 > 0:20:13earlier than that. Sometime during October, 1957, they said for her
0:20:13 > 0:20:18safety.I just wonder if here, there may be some deeper sort of metaphor
0:20:18 > 0:20:23about where America is because reconciliation is not easy.No, it
0:20:23 > 0:20:29isn't.You know, you have had the congressional medal, you have had
0:20:29 > 0:20:33meetings with your Clinton and statues erected in your honour and
0:20:33 > 0:20:38the Little Rock nine's honour, and you have become a hugely respected
0:20:38 > 0:20:42figure because of the way you have handled your own personal
0:20:42 > 0:20:48experience, but in the end, for America to really come to terms with
0:20:48 > 0:20:52all of this is not about just putting up statues and giving gold
0:20:52 > 0:20:57medal is out, it is about every person's heart and mind changing.
0:20:57 > 0:21:02And I wonder if you feel that is really happening.This is my mantra.
0:21:02 > 0:21:07The only way we can have real reconciliation is to honestly
0:21:07 > 0:21:14acknowledge our painful is not shared past.Let me ask you this. I
0:21:14 > 0:21:19dare say it not so very far from this house they will be a young
0:21:19 > 0:21:2615-year-old black girl who is currently enrolled in Central high,
0:21:26 > 0:21:31here in Little Rock. Do you believe that her life, her opportunities,
0:21:31 > 0:21:38her experience, is going to be much better, much easier, for sure, then
0:21:38 > 0:21:45yours or not?I know that the possibilities for her future art,
0:21:45 > 0:21:52will be... Better than mine were. Because so much has changed,
0:21:52 > 0:22:01especially opportunities for women. But... That depends upon her being
0:22:01 > 0:22:06prepared, prepared. I tell students that it is their obligation to
0:22:06 > 0:22:12prepare themselves for their futures, and those who do not repair
0:22:12 > 0:22:18it will be cast aside. I do not pretty it up, I just tell them
0:22:18 > 0:22:22straight up they will be cast aside. We have talked a lot about what has
0:22:22 > 0:22:27happened in the States in your long life, and I just wonder when we
0:22:27 > 0:22:31talked about the journey and you express your concerns about America
0:22:31 > 0:22:36today, EU said the journey is nowhere near complete, in fact, we
0:22:36 > 0:22:41are still near the beginning, but do you have faith that ultimately, that
0:22:41 > 0:22:49journey will lead to a place where the races are equal, where justice
0:22:49 > 0:22:53and equality are guaranteed for all Americans, including black
0:22:53 > 0:23:02Americans?That is my hope for the future. But it's been a long time
0:23:02 > 0:23:12coming, and it will be... I don't know whether I will live to see it.
0:23:12 > 0:23:20I do not know whether I will live to see it. But... That's my hope for
0:23:20 > 0:23:25the future. I understand my place in history, I am an historical
0:23:25 > 0:23:30footnote. That is 1am, not a celebrity. When I started talking to
0:23:30 > 0:23:39students, I would cry during my presentations. -- that is what I M.
0:23:39 > 0:23:45I have worked my way to wear that does not happen any more but I guess
0:23:45 > 0:23:53I was doing my own exposure therapy. -- I am. I did not even know about
0:23:53 > 0:23:57exposure therapy until recent years. Elizabeth Eckford, it has been a
0:23:57 > 0:24:02real honour to talk to you and thank you for letting me into your house
0:24:02 > 0:24:05and thank you for being on HARDtalk. Thank you. When I had an opportunity
0:24:05 > 0:24:10to speak to the public, I always remind them of how powerful their
0:24:10 > 0:24:17voices can be in support of a person who is being hurt.