0:00:00 > 0:00:09Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:09 > 0:00:10Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:10 > 0:00:16I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:16 > 0:00:19Donald Trump claims he can broker the deal of the century
0:00:19 > 0:00:21between Israel and Palestine.
0:00:21 > 0:00:27Instead, he seems to have entrenched the hostility.
0:00:27 > 0:00:33My guess is that they are trained Arab Israeli MP and one-time adviser
0:00:33 > 0:00:37to Yasser Arafat, Ahmad Tibi.
0:00:37 > 0:00:39Is the Arab-Israeli experience a sign that the uneasy,
0:00:40 > 0:00:43messy status quo is the only viable response to the conflict
0:00:43 > 0:00:44between Jewish and Arab communities?
0:00:44 > 0:00:56HARDTALK THEME MUSIC PLAYS.
0:01:12 > 0:01:19Ahmad Tibi, welcome to HARDtalk Thank you. I think we have to start
0:01:19 > 0:01:23with the impact of the Donald Trump presidency on relations between
0:01:23 > 0:01:29Palestinians and Israelis. Would you agree that it has fundamentally
0:01:29 > 0:01:34changed the dynamic in the region? Yes, for the negative. I think that
0:01:34 > 0:01:40Trump and his Administration promoted anarchy in the region and
0:01:40 > 0:01:48anarchy in the world by supporting, enhancing, encouraging violation of
0:01:48 > 0:01:55international law and adopting one side as opposed to the other.
0:01:55 > 0:02:02President Trump via his speech about Jerusalem he adopted these rarely
0:02:02 > 0:02:07narrative and the occupation narrative. To say that he and his
0:02:07 > 0:02:15three Musketeers, advises who are great supporters, adopted the
0:02:15 > 0:02:20talking points of Benjamin Netanyahu...You can make your point
0:02:20 > 0:02:25about international law but surely what Donald Trump has recognised
0:02:25 > 0:02:29reality in perhaps a more honest way the previous American President is
0:02:29 > 0:02:33because the truth is it is obvious to everyone that the Israeli capital
0:02:33 > 0:02:40is in Jerusalem, it is where the cabinet needs, and Donald Trump said
0:02:40 > 0:02:49enough with this nonsense.That is nonsense. Because 1967, Jerusalem
0:02:49 > 0:02:55was occupied in 1967, that is the reality. If there is a thief in the
0:02:55 > 0:03:00area and he has taken your house, that is a reality but you are not
0:03:00 > 0:03:06supposed to accept reality as legitimate FAQ.Colonel Trump
0:03:06 > 0:03:09announced he would move the embassy to Jerusalem, and we understand it
0:03:09 > 0:03:13may happen quicker than we thought but he said I not prejudging what
0:03:13 > 0:03:19the two parties finally agree on Jerusalem, they can do what they
0:03:19 > 0:03:24want, they can divide it in the future as they wish, we are simply
0:03:24 > 0:03:28recognise it what is seen to be Israel's capital.He said more than
0:03:28 > 0:03:37that. In 1980, there was a motion saying exactly what he said in his
0:03:37 > 0:03:44speech. He adopted that low of unified capital of Israel,
0:03:44 > 0:03:49containing the Supreme Court, the government, Parliament. He adopted
0:03:49 > 0:03:55that phrasing, even. He did not say that Jerusalem is an occupied area,
0:03:55 > 0:04:02that Jerusalem should be the capital of the Palestinians and this is the
0:04:02 > 0:04:09most dangerous thing, he is dealing with Jerusalem as it is an internal
0:04:09 > 0:04:14issue of the Israelis and it is not. The fact is, he remains the most
0:04:14 > 0:04:21powerful man in the world- you could perhaps argue about that, China is
0:04:21 > 0:04:28rising power- but he has a really a decision that reflects the fact that
0:04:28 > 0:04:33frankly many Palestinians without knowledge, you have lost. You have
0:04:33 > 0:04:36lost in the sense that your interests are never going to be
0:04:36 > 0:04:47achievable.I do not agree with you totally. You do in part? It is one
0:04:47 > 0:04:53of the most toughest and it difficult areas for the Palestinian
0:04:53 > 0:04:58people, I agree with that, but we have had much more difficult phases
0:04:58 > 0:05:03in our history, in Palestinian history. This nation, the
0:05:03 > 0:05:09Palestinian people, is very much in Sijsling in implementing and
0:05:09 > 0:05:16achieving its national rights and it is the rights of the people under
0:05:16 > 0:05:22occupation seeking to be freed, to be Independent, to be sovereign,
0:05:22 > 0:05:26alongside the state of Israel and Mr Trump is saying the Palestinians and
0:05:26 > 0:05:30Israelis, you will take it all and he will take nothing. He has
0:05:30 > 0:05:42qualified himself as a broker.I am wondering as and Israelis citizen,
0:05:42 > 0:05:47you serve in the Knesset Knesset, you represent the interests of the
0:05:47 > 0:05:58Arab Israeli people. Reaction from Hamas leaders saying we would not
0:05:58 > 0:06:02allow Trump's declaration to pass even if we lose our heads in the
0:06:02 > 0:06:08process, all the talk of a new intifada, the talk of Palestinians
0:06:08 > 0:06:14putting their life on the line, we have been here so many times before,
0:06:14 > 0:06:19is there not now be we resignation that says to you, in the privacy of
0:06:19 > 0:06:24your mind, there is no point any more to this sort of talk of laying
0:06:24 > 0:06:36down our lives, new in the -- into fibres, we are part of the
0:06:36 > 0:06:40Palestinian people.There are three parts, Palestinians inside is right,
0:06:40 > 0:06:51in 67 areas, and in the diaspora. We are supporting Palestinians
0:06:51 > 0:06:56self-determination and this right is not negotiable and we are, as
0:06:56 > 0:07:03citizens, from the podium, from the Knesset Knesset, we are promoting
0:07:03 > 0:07:08Israeli-Palestinian peace, we are not supporting violence, we have
0:07:08 > 0:07:14said it in the past always, I am supporting nonviolent popular
0:07:14 > 0:07:27resistance. It has succeeded in the last year when the church closed...
0:07:27 > 0:07:31When the government official tried to impose taxes on the Christian
0:07:31 > 0:07:36Church in Jerusalem.One could say it is easy to you to talk about
0:07:36 > 0:07:44protests, the usual words in the Knesset. But if you lived in the
0:07:44 > 0:07:48occupied West Bank, the reality is much more desperate. A young girl in
0:07:48 > 0:07:54the West Bank village who struck out at an Israeli officer because she
0:07:54 > 0:07:57was so angry about what the troops were doing in and around the
0:07:57 > 0:08:03village, she is now in a court facing serious charges and may well
0:08:03 > 0:08:12end up in prison. It is easy for you as an Arab - Israelis to say that
0:08:12 > 0:08:21but it is much for difficult for others to jeopardise their freedom.
0:08:21 > 0:08:26I accompanying her in the military court...You can walk away at the
0:08:26 > 0:08:34end of the day.13 of us were shot way snipers and killed in 2000.
0:08:34 > 0:08:41Citizens of the state of Israel because we just demonstrated against
0:08:41 > 0:08:48Sharon getting in. From that point, until today, 55 Arab citizens were
0:08:48 > 0:08:54killed by the Israelis security authorities without being
0:08:54 > 0:08:59prosecuted. We are in danger because of the way Israeli police is dealing
0:08:59 > 0:09:07with us as enemy is not as citizens but I not in a position to reach
0:09:07 > 0:09:14Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank how to resist. -- to preach to.
0:09:14 > 0:09:19People are resisting... Really, it is not your fight...My nation
0:09:19 > 0:09:26fight.I am a Palestinian... And also an Israeli. You have the vote,
0:09:26 > 0:09:32you have a seat in the Knesset Knesset. There is a difference
0:09:32 > 0:09:36between you and the people living under occupation and we can talk
0:09:36 > 0:09:40about the subset of the Palestinians living in Excel...They are
0:09:40 > 0:09:46suffering much more.I am interesting in the position of the
0:09:46 > 0:09:51Arab Israeli and amongst Arab Israelis, the overwhelming feeling
0:09:51 > 0:09:56is one of query acceptance. Opinion polls show that a clear majority of
0:09:56 > 0:10:02Arab Israelis have a positive feeling a bout of their lives in
0:10:02 > 0:10:10Israel. A positive feeling.I am Smiley because I am living there. --
0:10:10 > 0:10:23smiling. Arab citizens are discriminated in all fields of life
0:10:23 > 0:10:30and in Pauls, scientific polls, not Israeli journalist polls, they are
0:10:30 > 0:10:38feeling second or third degree citizens. Budget, employment,
0:10:38 > 0:10:43agriculture, nonindustrial zones, we are discriminated in all fields of
0:10:43 > 0:10:53life.A major poll says 60.5% of Arabs describe their situation as
0:10:53 > 0:10:58good or make very good. It does not seem to match what you are saying.I
0:10:58 > 0:11:12did not agree with these results. At least people are saying believed the
0:11:12 > 0:11:19State is dealing with them as enemies not as equal citizens.Why
0:11:19 > 0:11:23do you think thousands of Arabs living in Jerusalem - they have a
0:11:23 > 0:11:30grey area status because an international law East Jerusalem is
0:11:30 > 0:11:35occupied territory but since the annexation by Israel they are
0:11:35 > 0:11:39regarded as people with rights to residency and, indeed, the right to
0:11:39 > 0:11:46apply for citizenship in Israel and thousands have indeed applied for
0:11:46 > 0:11:51citizenship.What does that tell you? We are talking about 300,000
0:11:51 > 0:11:55Palestinians in Palestinians and you're talking about thousands.
0:11:55 > 0:12:04Those Palestinians in east Jerusalem are facing strangulation policy,
0:12:04 > 0:12:11deportation, revoking their identity card, sending them out Jerusalem -
0:12:11 > 0:12:17thousands of them. It is to say that the education system in east
0:12:17 > 0:12:23Jerusalem is one of the worst education systems conditions led by
0:12:23 > 0:12:28the Israeli authorities. It is to say that those in Jerusalem,
0:12:28 > 0:12:34Palestinians, not all of them are free to get into a mosque.
0:12:34 > 0:12:41Demolition orders in east Jerusalem but more also in other villages in
0:12:41 > 0:12:45Arab villages, inside Israeli, because of lack of planning and
0:12:45 > 0:12:51housing. Do you know, Stephen, there is a law for community villages law,
0:12:51 > 0:13:00for preventing me, as an Israeli citizen, Arab citizen, the living in
0:13:00 > 0:13:05many villages. I can live in Manhattan and London but not in
0:13:05 > 0:13:11this.A year saying, using the words of that resolution from the UN in
0:13:11 > 0:13:181975, are you saying that you still regarded as racism?The practice of
0:13:18 > 0:13:28Zionism daily is to say that Jews are superior to non- Jews.There was
0:13:28 > 0:13:33a repeal, one of the only UN resolutions to be repealed because
0:13:33 > 0:13:37of a consensus across the world that that language was an except verbal
0:13:37 > 0:13:43and wrong. I am asking you whether you still use that phrase.Many
0:13:43 > 0:13:48Palestinians inside Israel or outside the green line, of the times
0:13:48 > 0:13:58of Zionism because of racism because of many aspects against non- Jews,
0:13:58 > 0:14:04or Indigenous Palestinians.This is important because right now there is
0:14:04 > 0:14:07a discussion both inside Israel and outside the territories but also
0:14:07 > 0:14:12among Palestinians and Arab Israelis about what is going to happen if the
0:14:12 > 0:14:16two state solution is dead and we have discussed Donald Trump and the
0:14:16 > 0:14:20current political situation and nobody would pretend that the two
0:14:20 > 0:14:27state solution looks alive right now so there is a unitary state solution
0:14:27 > 0:14:33and how and if there is one, do you believe it would be acceptable for
0:14:33 > 0:14:41the Jewish Israeli population to be in a minority?
0:15:00 > 0:15:05There are more talk about the solution.You even posited the
0:15:05 > 0:15:09notion that you might run for Prime Minister of the Unitarian strayed
0:15:09 > 0:15:13from the Jordan River and he said it was able run-off between me and Mr
0:15:13 > 0:15:18Netanyahu, I would wind, no doubt about it.If this was the case, an
0:15:18 > 0:15:24equal right would be there between Jews and Arabs from the sea to the
0:15:24 > 0:15:30river. A Palestinian would wind the post of the Prime Minister.I asked
0:15:30 > 0:15:36you, can you countenance and you think it is in any way realistic to
0:15:36 > 0:15:40think that the Jewish population of Israel will ever accept a situation
0:15:40 > 0:15:46in which they are in a minority? Under the resolution, as the
0:15:46 > 0:15:50homeland for the Jews after the Second World War, you understand
0:15:50 > 0:15:54that. I believe better than most Arabs because it made a very famous
0:15:54 > 0:15:57speech understanding the impact of the Holocaust on the Jewish people
0:15:57 > 0:16:03and on that creation of the state of Israel. Can you imagine a unitary
0:16:03 > 0:16:08state where the Jewish population isn't a minority?I, as a victim, in
0:16:08 > 0:16:14that speech, can tell you that I realise that for the Israelis, it is
0:16:14 > 0:16:20a nightmare to talk about equal democratic state. That is why, when
0:16:20 > 0:16:25you are giving two choices for them, two state solution or one state
0:16:25 > 0:16:29solution, there are immediately choosing the third choice, which is
0:16:29 > 0:16:33not there, the status quo. That is why I am staying two state solution
0:16:33 > 0:16:40is the ultimate solution that is supporting. But the condition is
0:16:40 > 0:16:46immediate ending of the occupation and Israel is rearranging the
0:16:46 > 0:16:50occupation.But you don't just say that. It's a very inflammatory
0:16:50 > 0:16:54things. In an interview not so long ago, you allowed your imagination to
0:16:54 > 0:17:00run. You said, we will, if there is to be a unitary state, we will annul
0:17:00 > 0:17:05the declaration of independence from 1948. In its place, we will write a
0:17:05 > 0:17:09simple declaration that represents all citizens. He said it is
0:17:09 > 0:17:12untenable for a democratic state to have a declaration of independence
0:17:12 > 0:17:17that is fundamentally Jewish. You asked, what would the country's name
0:17:17 > 0:17:22they? You said, I don't know. Its Parliament will decide. What about
0:17:22 > 0:17:26the flag? You said, yes, that will have to change. When you say these
0:17:26 > 0:17:32things, how do you think they respond?When is daily -- is
0:17:32 > 0:17:36Israelis are killing Palestinians, how will we react? It is a
0:17:36 > 0:17:41democratic vision. I think any democratic in the international
0:17:41 > 0:17:46community, should respect my vision of democracy. If there will not be
0:17:46 > 0:17:50as two state solution, yes, I want to be equal with Israeli Jews. I
0:17:50 > 0:17:57want to be equal with anybody in Tel Aviv. Nazareth. But I will never
0:17:57 > 0:18:03accept to be inferior to any Israeli Jews just because the state is
0:18:03 > 0:18:07defining itself as a Jewish state. Because defining yourself as Jewish
0:18:07 > 0:18:14and democratic is an oxymoron. This is an oxymoron that we are fighting
0:18:14 > 0:18:19against day by day. It seems to me your speech was based on empathy and
0:18:19 > 0:18:23a genuine effort to understand the Israeli mindset.What aspect of the
0:18:23 > 0:18:27Israeli mindset is that they see more than a decade ago when the
0:18:27 > 0:18:31Palestinians had a free election that a majority at least in Gaza
0:18:31 > 0:18:35voted quite clearly for harm us, a movement that is dedicated in its
0:18:35 > 0:18:40original constitution, the destruction of the state of Israel
0:18:40 > 0:18:46-- Hamas.It is democracy. Palestinian people, like in England
0:18:46 > 0:18:52and Germany, and in France, like even in the United States, who just
0:18:52 > 0:18:57elected a very bizarre president, weak, Palestinians, are free to
0:18:57 > 0:19:03elect exactly what they want Palestinians want.Israelis are
0:19:03 > 0:19:07going to listen to this and your belief that the Palestinians can
0:19:07 > 0:19:12choose Hamas if they and still believe that there is any possible
0:19:12 > 0:19:17reason why they should listen to you talking about unitary state?They
0:19:17 > 0:19:20can listen to me talking about two state solution. They are not
0:19:20 > 0:19:29listening. No for that. And what is Netanyahu proposing for Israel is an
0:19:29 > 0:19:35Palestinians? More and more confrontation, more friction, more
0:19:35 > 0:19:41bloodshed. I am proposing peace, I am proposing peace, freedom for
0:19:41 > 0:19:45Palestinians and peaceful Israelis and Palestinians.It is challenging.
0:19:45 > 0:19:49It is. If you wanted to build some temperatures and build some
0:19:49 > 0:19:54confidence, there are certain things you could do. For a start, you could
0:19:54 > 0:19:59denounce your fellow Arab-Israeli ember of who is now in prison
0:19:59 > 0:20:05because he was smuggling telephones to Palestinian prisoners. What did
0:20:05 > 0:20:18you make what he did, and how disappointed were you in him?The
0:20:18 > 0:20:2213th MKs of the joint list, all of us, were not using this way of
0:20:22 > 0:20:26struggle in order to act as parliamentarians. It is not the way.
0:20:26 > 0:20:32He said though. We, myself and others said so, and he is paying the
0:20:32 > 0:20:42price in jail.Why did you boycott the funeral?Because I carried my
0:20:42 > 0:20:47condolences to this daughter...No, you didn't go to that general. What
0:20:47 > 0:20:53kind of signal are you selling -- sending to the Israelis?I obliged
0:20:53 > 0:21:00to act exactly as the consensus, the Israeli consensus is demanding from
0:21:00 > 0:21:06me? That is a historical problem. I can understand Israelis when they
0:21:06 > 0:21:13cannot do something that hurt their feelings. Please understand our
0:21:13 > 0:21:16feelings as national leaders.I wonder whether you paid heed to the
0:21:16 > 0:21:21words of the first Arab-Israeli to be a Supreme Court justice, and that
0:21:21 > 0:21:26tell you something about the Israeli system. He served in the Supreme
0:21:26 > 0:21:31Court, he was proud to do so, and to what time he was leaving, he said,
0:21:31 > 0:21:36yes, I complain a lot about the treatment of Israelis, but I am also
0:21:36 > 0:21:41complaining a lot about us, the leaders of the community and we must
0:21:41 > 0:21:44take responsibility for the problems. Hasn't got a point there?
0:21:44 > 0:21:48You spend so much time grandstanding about the long-term prospect that a
0:21:48 > 0:21:53peaceful solution between Arab, between Palestinian and Israeli, you
0:21:53 > 0:21:59don't spend much time trying to make a better life for your constituent.
0:21:59 > 0:22:06You were mistaken. 85% of the activity is focused on social and
0:22:06 > 0:22:13economic issues of our community, and there is misleading coverage of
0:22:13 > 0:22:20power at the tea. Yes, we are responsible for the well-being of
0:22:20 > 0:22:29our community. We should be much more interested, focusing, of
0:22:29 > 0:22:35violence in our community, which is almost devastating.It is a scourge,
0:22:35 > 0:22:41particular violence against women inside Arab community.We are taking
0:22:41 > 0:22:47part in every demonstration. Who should emotion against that, who
0:22:47 > 0:22:50should emotion about using weapons and community events?Myself. I
0:22:50 > 0:22:56guess, that is what the Israelis, I can hear the voices in my head. And
0:22:56 > 0:23:00you are much freer to make those protests and to demand better from
0:23:00 > 0:23:04the community inside Israel that he would be if you are living in a
0:23:04 > 0:23:09village in the west Bank or indeed a different Arab country.In Syria or
0:23:09 > 0:23:16Libya.Say it. You can say it.It is a racist. You know why? To tell me
0:23:16 > 0:23:21that because I am Arab that I should move to Syria as they are demanding
0:23:21 > 0:23:26day by day or I should compare myself to third World countries,
0:23:26 > 0:23:34none democratic, totalitarian regimes, Israel is claiming it is
0:23:34 > 0:23:39democracy, the control group and the control state should be Sweden,
0:23:39 > 0:23:45France, England, not Libya, not Syria, not third states, third World
0:23:45 > 0:23:51states in Africa or south America. I want to be equal, exactly like
0:23:51 > 0:23:57citizens in Tel Aviv and I do not want to be compared with
0:23:57 > 0:24:00totalitarian regimes, but with democratic states will stop it is
0:24:00 > 0:24:07the test. Can you accept the idea that an Israeli citizen who is Arab
0:24:07 > 0:24:18is willing to be equal?It is a good way to end this interview. Ahmad
0:24:18 > 0:24:24Tibi, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.