0:00:00 > 0:00:0255% of the ballot.
0:00:02 > 0:00:05It's just gone half past four in the morning.
0:00:05 > 0:00:13Now on BBC News it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:13 > 0:00:17Welcome to HARDtalk I Stephen Sackur. Seven candidates are
0:00:17 > 0:00:21challenging Vladimir Putin in this month's Russian presidential
0:00:21 > 0:00:25election. Not one of them has a hope of victory. To all intents and
0:00:25 > 0:00:31purposes, this is a show election to confirm the popularity and power of
0:00:31 > 0:00:37Vladimir Putin. But is there a danger for Russia in this
0:00:37 > 0:00:41urbanisation of politics? My guest is one of the seven hatless are that
0:00:41 > 0:00:47candidates. Boris Titov, a Vladimir Putin appointee for business. Does
0:00:47 > 0:01:20Russia need reform rather than authoritarianism? Party of
0:01:23 > 0:01:29-- Boris Titov in Moscow, welcome to HARDtalk. . You are going to be in
0:01:29 > 0:01:33the election that comes ahead in just a few days from now. To the
0:01:33 > 0:01:37outside world, it looks at the charade, a mockery of a democratic
0:01:37 > 0:01:42process. Is that the way it feels to you?No, it is a democratic process
0:01:42 > 0:01:47because we are all by our own world participating in it. But of course
0:01:47 > 0:01:51the popularity of Vladimir Putin is very high, and that is why we, of
0:01:51 > 0:01:55course, understand that the chances are very low. Our chances are very
0:01:55 > 0:01:59low.You are not really a serious candidate, are you? Because during
0:01:59 > 0:02:04the course of the campaign, you have said that as hang on...I am a
0:02:04 > 0:02:09serious man. I am a businessman. By the way a British businessman.
0:02:09 > 0:02:17Because I started my career and 89 in London.Yes, well... Two 1989. In
0:02:17 > 0:02:2399. You said ombudsman. Not a serious man. I don't think is
0:02:23 > 0:02:31serious man could handle this job. It is a serious job. You said I am
0:02:31 > 0:02:36that it hidden's ombudsman. The fact is yes. But, I mean, in reality, I
0:02:36 > 0:02:41am protecting the rights of businessman from the state of
0:02:41 > 0:02:50Russia. Because in very many cases, are - they're using administrative
0:02:50 > 0:02:56law, criminal law, corruption. So I am protecting our businessmen from
0:02:56 > 0:03:04the Russian state.Boris Titov, I would want to get to your job. But
0:03:04 > 0:03:08even want to offend you. I didn't want to say you were a serious man,
0:03:08 > 0:03:11what wanted to say you were not a serious candidate. The Rizzo said
0:03:11 > 0:03:15that is because you have publicly said, you know, but it didn't is the
0:03:15 > 0:03:18toughest politician of our day. -- Lammy Purdon is the toughest
0:03:18 > 0:03:32politician Barrett day.-- Vladimir Putin. Of course he has a great
0:03:32 > 0:03:36strength against us. But ever understand is why we are
0:03:36 > 0:03:39participating in these elections. Us, it is very important, this move.
0:03:39 > 0:03:50We were thinking as a group of businessman in our union of non- oil
0:03:50 > 0:03:54business of Russia, who are supporting me. And we were thinking
0:03:54 > 0:03:59prolonged time to go for the selection or not, but we decided to
0:03:59 > 0:04:05do it. Why? Because we need to promote our ideas. The idea that we
0:04:05 > 0:04:13have is a strategy for Russia. We are the best macroeconomic and
0:04:13 > 0:04:20scientists in Russia and developed a programme and this is a very
0:04:20 > 0:04:25profound programme. A real strategy. We prepared it for two years. The
0:04:25 > 0:04:29main idea is that we have to change the economy of Russia. We have to go
0:04:29 > 0:04:36from today's oil economy, resource economy, to a real market economy.
0:04:36 > 0:04:42We had to promote small and medium businesses. We have two promote
0:04:42 > 0:04:46industrial, technological businesses. We have two make the
0:04:46 > 0:04:51country know about that.Yes, but the point... Let me stop you, let me
0:04:51 > 0:04:56stop you for a second. You say you are full of important economic lives
0:04:56 > 0:05:02is due to make I'm sorry. No, don't worry. You tell about these ideas of
0:05:02 > 0:05:09modernising Russia, and you say that you, I can make this point, you note
0:05:09 > 0:05:14the election is a stride. But it Purdon has not released a manifesto.
0:05:14 > 0:05:21-- Vladimir Putin. It is not regard you are serious. The in the Kremlin
0:05:21 > 0:05:29wanted for you and others...Let me finish my point.You were to stand
0:05:29 > 0:05:34as a figleaf to give the impression that they were some sort of choice.
0:05:34 > 0:05:41I am sorry. The Kremlin did not want me to stand. The only question that
0:05:41 > 0:05:48I asked the Kremlin, because I am working in the Kremlin
0:05:48 > 0:05:52administration, so the only thing which I asked was it would be a
0:05:52 > 0:05:57conflict of interest. Allow to leave my day to day job to run for the
0:05:57 > 0:06:01election? They said, OK, we thought it was not a conflict of interest,
0:06:01 > 0:06:05science still giving the job and going for a elections. Otherwise, I
0:06:05 > 0:06:09would have to decide, because it is a big chance that I would have left
0:06:09 > 0:06:15the job to run for the elections. Alexei Navalny is by far the most
0:06:15 > 0:06:20prominent opposition voice in Russia today. He wanted to run in the
0:06:20 > 0:06:25election. He was barred from running on the basis of a conviction on
0:06:25 > 0:06:29jumped up charges which were condemned by the European Court of
0:06:29 > 0:06:33Human Rights has been completely unacceptable, and after that, Alessi
0:06:33 > 0:06:38Davante said to all Russians, please, do not vote. -- Alexei
0:06:38 > 0:06:44Navalny. He said that it meant fixing Vladimir Putin's problem by
0:06:44 > 0:06:47helping in disguise his appointment by making it look like serving like
0:06:47 > 0:06:53a proper election. Why did you not heed his words?Because if beverage
0:06:53 > 0:07:04will go for the polls, but it Purdon will win with 100%. Those who are
0:07:04 > 0:07:12not agreeing with the economic, don't agree with the economical, if
0:07:12 > 0:07:17they will not go, the country and Vladimir Putin will think that
0:07:17 > 0:07:25everyone supports him. Even 10% of people, 15%, 20%, they will come and
0:07:25 > 0:07:30they will say we are voting for other people as candidates. So we
0:07:30 > 0:07:35will see the picture, the social picture in Russia, the picture of
0:07:35 > 0:07:40opinions in Russia. So Alexi Diwali, of course, we can talk about his
0:07:40 > 0:07:53legal situation. Only about 1.5 or 2% of people support him.With
0:07:53 > 0:08:01respect, your current poll standing is less than 1%, so...I won't
0:08:01 > 0:08:10compete with Alexei Navalny. We'll see final stand. At least in one
0:08:10 > 0:08:13week, you will see our result. Of course we are not professional
0:08:13 > 0:08:18politicians. We are professional economists. But anyway, Alexei
0:08:18 > 0:08:27Navalny asked his supporters, and he had to make them come and vote for
0:08:27 > 0:08:34him or if you can't vote because he was legally not in the list, but
0:08:34 > 0:08:40there were other possibilities to do that. So I think that we had to have
0:08:40 > 0:08:44more competition at every social group supporting any candidate and
0:08:44 > 0:08:48having the right to have very candidate and to come and vote.
0:08:48 > 0:08:51Boris Titov, we will talk economy, because that is a real interest. But
0:08:51 > 0:08:55before we do that, we need to talk about what Vladimir Putin seems to
0:08:55 > 0:08:59regard as the most important message in the election. And that is his
0:08:59 > 0:09:04message on foreign policy. A bellicose, assertive, big message to
0:09:04 > 0:09:08the Russian people about restoring Russian pride and taking on Russia's
0:09:08 > 0:09:14enemies wherever they may be. Do you support that element of let me
0:09:14 > 0:09:17Purdon's message?That is not the message he gives to the Russian
0:09:17 > 0:09:25people. Mostly the message is for the West. And this message could be
0:09:25 > 0:09:30read as you don't want to talk to us when we are weak. We think that you
0:09:30 > 0:09:36will talk with us when we will be strong. I think the perception of
0:09:36 > 0:09:41the situation in the world is different, between the Western
0:09:41 > 0:09:45Vladimir Putin. He thinks the West made many mistakes against Russia.
0:09:45 > 0:09:51-- between the West and that it had. I partly agree with that. Because in
0:09:51 > 0:09:59the 90s, the West did not support them in the Democrat presses. We
0:09:59 > 0:10:02thought there would be huge educational programmes. Thousands of
0:10:02 > 0:10:09Russians will go to the West to learn about democracy and the market
0:10:09 > 0:10:20economy seat done. Of course, Vladimir Putin considers as not
0:10:20 > 0:10:23understanding of the Russian interest in the world. -- on the
0:10:23 > 0:10:31market economy.Sorry to interrupt. I don't mean to be rude. There is a
0:10:31 > 0:10:35time delay on the line and is the ant is too long, we will not get
0:10:35 > 0:10:39through all of the important issues that we need to get through. On this
0:10:39 > 0:10:42point, I am mindful that you are an opposition candidate tried to remove
0:10:42 > 0:10:46Vladimir Putin from the Kremlin. But your message to the outside world is
0:10:46 > 0:10:50what? That you support his invasion and annexation of Crimea? That you
0:10:50 > 0:10:56support Russian trips in eastern Ukraine? That you support the
0:10:56 > 0:11:01intervention... -- Russian troops. Two I support some things and not
0:11:01 > 0:11:11others.-- I support something. Crimea was never Ukrainian. The
0:11:11 > 0:11:16mistake was made by Boris Yeltsin when they didn't even consider the
0:11:16 > 0:11:23issue of Crimea when they signed the agreements. Because nobody even
0:11:23 > 0:11:28thought that Crimea is Ukrainian at that time. And he just let it go
0:11:28 > 0:11:33without any - without even putting - because he was so fast and hard to
0:11:33 > 0:11:37move these agreements forwards because he wanted to be the
0:11:37 > 0:11:41president of Russia. He was the president of Russia, but it was
0:11:41 > 0:11:46Gorbachev who was the president of the soviet union. In order to push
0:11:46 > 0:11:49through the agreements and just destroy the soviet union.I want
0:11:49 > 0:11:53your view on selling top level in the United Kingdom today. And that
0:11:53 > 0:12:07is the very mysterious illness, the critical honours, a rational double
0:12:07 > 0:12:14agent in hospital fibrous life alongside his daughter. Sergei
0:12:14 > 0:12:22Skripal was seen to be working for the UK, went to Russia, then was
0:12:22 > 0:12:27sent to the UK any spy swap.That was not a question, that was a
0:12:27 > 0:12:30position.Do you think Russia's response will for what has happened
0:12:30 > 0:12:35to Sergei Skripal?And have nothing to do without, and I can say that
0:12:35 > 0:12:42you do not speculate on that. It you start speculating, even if they did
0:12:42 > 0:12:49not give his declination what happened. There was no investigation
0:12:49 > 0:12:53about that. Why we should put everything on the hard side? Why
0:12:53 > 0:12:58should we think about the enemy psychology from the first thing,
0:12:58 > 0:13:01from the first thing? Will never agree on anything. We will never
0:13:01 > 0:13:06agree on anything.We might want to think about Vladimir Putin's
0:13:06 > 0:13:12responsibilities, because you might think that in 2010...You have
0:13:12 > 0:13:17already jetted about that.Not at all. Had he respond to this? If you
0:13:17 > 0:13:21don't mind, let me ask the questions. Back in 2010, at the time
0:13:21 > 0:13:27of the spy swap, Vladimir Putin said traders were kicked the bucket. They
0:13:27 > 0:13:33have betrayed their friends for 30 pieces of silver and they will choke
0:13:33 > 0:13:36on them. Of course, many people are wondering whether Vladimir Putin...
0:13:36 > 0:13:42I haven't heard this expression, but I cannot comment on that. I never
0:13:42 > 0:13:49had anything to do with spy investigations or spy works. So let
0:13:49 > 0:13:54me free-to be free out of these questions. I want to talk about the
0:13:54 > 0:14:04economical side. What I will you if I may, the world is very small.
0:14:04 > 0:14:14Before we talked and signed the agreements with you, before that,
0:14:14 > 0:14:20Churchill and Stalin signed the agreement and further agreements
0:14:20 > 0:14:29post-war. For together against their enemies. Now we need to find ways to
0:14:29 > 0:14:33meet each other.I understand your point, Boris Titov, but it is not
0:14:33 > 0:14:36working away, right now, because of Russia's actions in Ukraine and
0:14:36 > 0:14:42elsewhere.
0:14:42 > 0:14:49When Hughes start your question... What is the right word in English?
0:14:49 > 0:14:51With accusations and not trying to find
0:14:51 > 0:14:53With accusations and not trying to find the right way to find each
0:14:53 > 0:15:04other. Boris Titov, UKIP trying to tell myself you're an opponent of
0:15:04 > 0:15:15Putin? I am an opponent of Putin but IME favour of Russia. When I see
0:15:15 > 0:15:18what happened, I have been living in London for many years. I'd children
0:15:18 > 0:15:24have British passports and what I see now happening... Did not know
0:15:24 > 0:15:29what to call it, it is a circus or whatever, that people just do not
0:15:29 > 0:15:36talk to each other, this is complete nonsense.You want reform, you want
0:15:36 > 0:15:41to open up the Russian economy, modernise it and massive
0:15:41 > 0:15:44international investment in Russia but do you not see it with the
0:15:44 > 0:15:49attitude of Vladimir Putin right now, you are not going to get any of
0:15:49 > 0:15:52that. You are going to get sanctions, more international
0:15:52 > 0:15:58isolation and less investment... Maybe you think like that but with
0:15:58 > 0:16:03more free economy in Russia, there will be investment and foreign
0:16:03 > 0:16:07investment. The politics are politics but we know, we're
0:16:07 > 0:16:13practical people, businessmen, we know that, to the Soviet Union,
0:16:13 > 0:16:19there was foreign investment from written, they were coming because,
0:16:19 > 0:16:26if there was a trust even at that time, we can talk, and when we talk
0:16:26 > 0:16:34figures, investments, mutual projects...In fact, it is going the
0:16:34 > 0:16:42other way. It is not going the other way. ExxonMobil just pulled out of a
0:16:42 > 0:16:49major joint venture because of the sanctions. Both the UN and US are
0:16:49 > 0:16:53talking about strengthening sanctions.I just had lunch in
0:16:53 > 0:16:59McDonald's. We have all the main brands staying in Russia.I hope you
0:16:59 > 0:17:06enjoyed your burger but the fact that... I like... And the fact is
0:17:06 > 0:17:12quite simple, you can eat as many cheeseburgers as you like but
0:17:12 > 0:17:16foreign direct investment in Russia has plummeted in recent years and
0:17:16 > 0:17:20you are a manner that is supposed to be advocating...It is true. It is
0:17:20 > 0:17:27true. We have a big potential in our possible economical development.
0:17:27 > 0:17:34Russia is a huge possibility of growth. We are saying we cannot do
0:17:34 > 0:17:39it by ourselves. We have quite a strong Russian business community.
0:17:39 > 0:17:44We have technologies. A lot of experts are still working in Russia.
0:17:44 > 0:17:56You are the Ombudsman there, would you agree with me that for example
0:17:56 > 0:18:02the use of the law and the courts by big companies to intimidate smaller
0:18:02 > 0:18:07companies, to manipulate...That's not right. The biggest problem now
0:18:07 > 0:18:17in Russia is corruption. And threats from the State to businessmen. Where
0:18:17 > 0:18:22criminal law is used against companies. We have to protect the
0:18:22 > 0:18:27rights, we have to take people out of jails because, according to the
0:18:27 > 0:18:31Russian laws, businessmen before the court could not be jailed. It is a
0:18:31 > 0:18:36recent law. But they are still jailed. I have just been in London
0:18:36 > 0:18:42and we had the list of Russian businessmen who have escaped from
0:18:42 > 0:18:46Russia and they are living in London, Greece, Spain and different
0:18:46 > 0:18:56countries...Boris Titov at this is really important. And you are being
0:18:56 > 0:19:00very frank about the degree of corruption in your country and that
0:19:00 > 0:19:03matters because you are the Ombudsman the business and it is
0:19:03 > 0:19:08important to businessmen to believe in their ability to safeguard their
0:19:08 > 0:19:11interests if corruption is corroding their system. A simple question, the
0:19:11 > 0:19:17youth think Vladimir Putin and his cronies and France, many from Saint
0:19:17 > 0:19:24Petersburg, are crooked?I can say I do not know this. I can say to you,
0:19:24 > 0:19:32I talk to Vladimir Putin about our strategy of growth. This is our
0:19:32 > 0:19:38programme. And what he did is he tried to move this way for more
0:19:38 > 0:19:43competition...I am asking you whether you believe Vladimir Putin
0:19:43 > 0:19:50is corrupt?I have never seen any deals with Putin on corruption. I
0:19:50 > 0:19:59have never seen it anywhere.Really? Really! Let me read to you the
0:19:59 > 0:20:06latest Helsinki commission report, highly respected, on Russian.
0:20:06 > 0:20:09Endemic corruption is a defining characteristic of the Putin regime
0:20:09 > 0:20:16while the President is the prime beneficiary, cronies maintain a
0:20:16 > 0:20:19system of corruption. These low support is necessary to ensure the
0:20:19 > 0:20:25status quo and they often pursue the governments illicit interests. That
0:20:25 > 0:20:32is the Helsinki commission report putting the blame on Putin himself.
0:20:32 > 0:20:35Helsinki... I do not know about Helsinki but they have never seen
0:20:35 > 0:20:45anybody from Putin's Administration asking for a bribe, at least in
0:20:45 > 0:20:50business. I have never seen, I cannot comment on that.You're
0:20:50 > 0:20:59trying to beat Putin in this election, wouldn't it be worth your
0:20:59 > 0:21:06way at these allegations?I am saying we have to work and go
0:21:06 > 0:21:13forward. If we will claim that everything is bad and this, this,
0:21:13 > 0:21:21and this bash by the way not very proved. Alexei Navalny's
0:21:21 > 0:21:26accusations... At least I have not seen the proved by coming back to
0:21:26 > 0:21:32the main idea. We need to go forward. We understand the problems
0:21:32 > 0:21:45we have in Russia. Corruption. The main corruption is a huge garden...
0:21:45 > 0:21:53I did not know how to say it in English... A huge sector of Russian
0:21:53 > 0:21:59society which we call it the Russian middle-class, which are all
0:21:59 > 0:22:04bureaucrats, you know, the people from the government and this
0:22:04 > 0:22:12practically middle-class pushes Russian politics forward. They are
0:22:12 > 0:22:20interesting all the politics in Russia. -- influencing. They do not
0:22:20 > 0:22:24want peace to go forward because they relate on that budget salary,
0:22:24 > 0:22:29corruption and we see it every day. When businessmen are put in jail,
0:22:29 > 0:22:34the next day comes somebody who says, you want to sit in jail? You
0:22:34 > 0:22:38give some payment to this company and you will be released.
0:22:38 > 0:22:44Practically 60% of businessmen who went in jail... We are almost out of
0:22:44 > 0:22:49time... The main problem of Russia is this corruption.You have spoken
0:22:49 > 0:22:56frankly about corruption in Russia. In a few days there will be an
0:22:56 > 0:23:00election and I hate to say this but you are not going to win, Vladimir
0:23:00 > 0:23:07Putin is going to win. How damaging will 64 years of let me Putin be?
0:23:07 > 0:23:14This election is not about electing a president. Speaking honestly. Yes,
0:23:14 > 0:23:19he has a big advantage against all of us but this election is about how
0:23:19 > 0:23:25Russia will be after the elections. And who will influence on the
0:23:25 > 0:23:29economy to go to the site of market competition and for the
0:23:29 > 0:23:37versification of the economy. -- de versification. The other way is back
0:23:37 > 0:23:44the 90s, backed to the Soviet Union, I'm afraid to say. This is a very
0:23:44 > 0:23:50possible alternative so we are fighting for that. That we do not