0:00:01 > 0:00:08Now on BBC News, it is time for HARDtalk.
0:00:08 > 0:00:12Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:12 > 0:00:18Globalisation is a trend based on movement -
0:00:18 > 0:00:19of money, goods, ideas and people, across continents
0:00:20 > 0:00:24and national borders.
0:00:24 > 0:00:28In a world of glaring inequality, it has stirred a powerful backlash,
0:00:28 > 0:00:33manifested in the rise of nationalism and identity politics.
0:00:33 > 0:00:43And this clash of human impulses is fertile territory
0:00:43 > 0:00:47for my guest today, the Pakistani novelist Mohsin Hamid.
0:00:47 > 0:00:51In his novels, he has explored cultural,
0:00:51 > 0:00:53economic and religious tensions between East and West,
0:00:53 > 0:00:54rich and poor.
0:00:54 > 0:00:55His latest book focuses on migration.
0:00:55 > 0:01:01Why does it frighten so many of us?
0:01:19 > 0:01:23Mohsin Hamid, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:24 > 0:01:29Thank you.I want to start with this interesting idea of yours, that you,
0:01:29 > 0:01:34you say, are a mongrel through and through. What do you mean by being a
0:01:34 > 0:01:39mongrel?When I was born in Pakistan, a move to California when
0:01:39 > 0:01:44I was three, back to Pakistan at nine, America 18, London 30, and
0:01:44 > 0:01:48back to Pakistan about nine years ago. And along the way I have become
0:01:48 > 0:01:53a mixture of things. So I can't think of myself as just Pakistani or
0:01:53 > 0:01:57just British or just American. I am a mixed up kind of creature, a
0:01:57 > 0:02:01hybrid. And that is what I mean by mongrel. It's a term that we tend to
0:02:01 > 0:02:05think of as kind of negative.Yes, I mean, do you wear that badge with
0:02:05 > 0:02:09pride?I do, I think that is something we should all wear with
0:02:09 > 0:02:12pride, because everyone is a mongrel, actually. We are descended
0:02:12 > 0:02:17from all sorts of people, and we have travelled and we have mixed
0:02:17 > 0:02:20throughout ancestry, but also in our own lives.But it is such an
0:02:20 > 0:02:24interesting statement, everybody is a mongrel. Because of course, most
0:02:24 > 0:02:26people don't want to think of themselves as mongrel. Indeed, the
0:02:26 > 0:02:31notion of longing, having a clear identity, having a group, a tribe
0:02:31 > 0:02:36that is yours, that is something that seems today, and the 21st
0:02:36 > 0:02:39century, to be extraordinarily important to people.I think it is
0:02:39 > 0:02:43very important. I think that the sense of belonging to a group of
0:02:43 > 0:02:47people, having connection to those people, is very important. But what
0:02:47 > 0:02:51happens sometime ago was the people we actually had a connection to, our
0:02:51 > 0:02:55media, you know, family and clan, was replaced by this idea of the
0:02:55 > 0:02:59nation, the nationstate. Which is kind of a fictitious connection. We
0:02:59 > 0:03:02don't really have a personal connection to most people of our
0:03:02 > 0:03:07nation.Well, the EU, maybe, but maybe not the most people. I wonder,
0:03:07 > 0:03:11because of your rather special international upbringing, with a
0:03:11 > 0:03:14well-to-do family who moved with you to America and then could afford to
0:03:14 > 0:03:18put you through US university, and you got a very good job, you know,
0:03:18 > 0:03:23you are a part of the sort of a global elite, which most people in
0:03:23 > 0:03:26most parts of the world are simply not part of.That's true,
0:03:26 > 0:03:32absolutely. That said, I mean, my childhood was spent trying to blend
0:03:32 > 0:03:36in with other people. So I was like a chameleon. You know, more
0:03:36 > 0:03:39Pakistani and Pakistan, more American in America. And as I got
0:03:39 > 0:03:45older, I began to be comfortable being a bit of a misfit, a sort of a
0:03:45 > 0:03:48strange semi- foreign creature. But as I have become comfortable with
0:03:48 > 0:03:52this, what I find is how many other people find themselves feeling
0:03:52 > 0:03:58foreign. I think everybody feels foreign, actually. So, you know, the
0:03:58 > 0:04:01only gay trialed in a street family feels foreign. The only daughter
0:04:01 > 0:04:05with five brothers feels foreign. A poet in the engineering faculty
0:04:05 > 0:04:10feels a bit foreign. There is a sense each of us has of being a bit
0:04:10 > 0:04:13different, of not fitting in.Just one more political thought about
0:04:13 > 0:04:18this notion of identity and belonging. It is a very interesting
0:04:18 > 0:04:23statement which the British Prime Minister, Theresa May, came out with
0:04:23 > 0:04:27not so long ago. She said if you believe you are a citizen of the
0:04:27 > 0:04:31world, you are in fact a citizen of nowhere. You don't understand what
0:04:31 > 0:04:35the very word citizenship means. Do you feel yourself, you know, with
0:04:35 > 0:04:41this mongrel idea of yours, to be a citizen of the world, rather than
0:04:41 > 0:04:44anywhere in particular?I think we can have multiple, overlapping
0:04:44 > 0:04:48citizenships, so I am a citizen of London in the centre used to live
0:04:48 > 0:04:51here and pay taxes you, I feel something to this place, a
0:04:51 > 0:04:55connection to this place. I am also a British citizen, which to Theresa
0:04:55 > 0:04:59May might make me a sort of a citizen of nowhere, because I am
0:04:59 > 0:05:03also Pakistani. But it has a real meaning to me, in terms of my sense
0:05:03 > 0:05:06of connection to this country, and my belief in abiding by the laws of
0:05:06 > 0:05:10this country, etc, voting when I am here. I don't think you become a
0:05:10 > 0:05:14citizen of nowhere. I think the question is, really, can you be a
0:05:14 > 0:05:18citizen of more than one place? Can you be a family with two parents
0:05:18 > 0:05:22instead of one parent, as a child? I think you can. You can have multiple
0:05:22 > 0:05:25families that you belong to.Your latest novel, Exit West, it is a
0:05:25 > 0:05:32sort of an epic tale with epic elements to it about a couple that
0:05:32 > 0:05:36fall in love in a city which is never named, but let's say it sounds
0:05:36 > 0:05:41a bit like Aleppo, in Syria, a city which is pleasant but falls into the
0:05:41 > 0:05:45most terrible war. These two young people get caught up in it, and they
0:05:45 > 0:05:48ultimately decide that their only hope of a decent future is to leave.
0:05:48 > 0:05:55You wrote it, as I understand it, while living in Lahore. Did you
0:05:55 > 0:05:58write it because you've got yourself in the city, Lahore in Pakistan,
0:05:58 > 0:06:02which was almost as fragile and as vulnerable as a city like Aleppo
0:06:02 > 0:06:07proved to be?I hope that Lahore is not that fragile, but I imagine
0:06:07 > 0:06:12people in Kabul and Aleppo and the massacres and Sarajevo also felt
0:06:12 > 0:06:15that their cities were not that fragile. What has changed for me is
0:06:15 > 0:06:21the plausibility of this disaster occurring in the place where I live
0:06:21 > 0:06:25has grown. I think it has grown for many people in many places, and so
0:06:25 > 0:06:29the novel is born out of that kind of nightmare, something I hope will
0:06:29 > 0:06:35never happen.It is a visceral, personal fear.Yes, I think, you
0:06:35 > 0:06:38know, living in Pakistan, again, I don't want a sort of contribute a
0:06:38 > 0:06:42narrative that Pakistan is going to decline and fall into chaos, I don't
0:06:42 > 0:06:46think it is likely to do so. I think it is likely to do the opposite. But
0:06:46 > 0:06:50it is possible that it could, and when you live in a place like that,
0:06:50 > 0:06:53various background fear that can occur, and for me does occur, and
0:06:53 > 0:06:58fiction is the way it takes place. And it is a fundamentally bleak
0:06:58 > 0:07:01vision. I mean, you catalogue and so many interesting emotional and
0:07:01 > 0:07:05intimate ways the way in which narrows down the life of all the
0:07:05 > 0:07:11people captured by it in this city, trapped in this city. And in the
0:07:11 > 0:07:16end, as I say, the two young people decide that escape is their only
0:07:16 > 0:07:19alternative. But the really interesting thing you do in this
0:07:19 > 0:07:23novel, because a lot of it is quite realistic, and evokes images from
0:07:23 > 0:07:27Aleppo and muzzle and elsewhere, but then what you do is you add this
0:07:27 > 0:07:30sort of fantastical element, where they discover a sort of magical
0:07:30 > 0:07:34doorway that can transport them from the hell of war to a new life, first
0:07:34 > 0:07:39on a Greek island, and then they make it to London. What is all this
0:07:39 > 0:07:44fabulous magic doorway about?Well, sometimes I think we can get closer
0:07:44 > 0:07:49to emotional reality by bending other aspects that we think of as
0:07:49 > 0:07:54being real. So yes, the doors that they travel through don't exist
0:07:54 > 0:07:58according to physics as we know it. And yet we each carry around a small
0:07:58 > 0:08:02black rectangle in our pockets and our handbags which is a kind of
0:08:02 > 0:08:08portal, you know, the screen of our phones.The smartphone.Yes, through
0:08:08 > 0:08:11which our consciousness leaps forward from our body constantly. We
0:08:11 > 0:08:16also know that if we wanted people to move very cheaply, they could.
0:08:16 > 0:08:20There is no technological reason why people can't move around the planet,
0:08:20 > 0:08:25maybe not instantaneously, but very, very easily. And so the doors for me
0:08:25 > 0:08:32are a combination of what technology is making our world feel like, the
0:08:32 > 0:08:35world we are suddenly seeing and mentally present wherever we wish to
0:08:35 > 0:08:39be, and away to compress the next couple of centuries of human history
0:08:39 > 0:08:43into a very short period of time. And yet, I suppose, the reader
0:08:43 > 0:08:47wonders whether you are devaluing the sheer bravery, courage, and also
0:08:47 > 0:08:53the risk that comes with actually escaping war-torn city, and trying
0:08:53 > 0:08:57to make a new life. Because, whether it be Syria or whether it be sub
0:08:57 > 0:09:04Saharan Africa, those who choose to leave and try to reach the rich
0:09:04 > 0:09:07world, and usually it is Europe, they are undertaking a terribly
0:09:07 > 0:09:11dangerous journey, either by sea or across mountains and deserts, or
0:09:11 > 0:09:18maybe both. And your description of the migrant experience doesn't
0:09:18 > 0:09:22include that journey at all.Yes, absolutely. I think that is... It is
0:09:22 > 0:09:31not my intention to minimise or to say that it is not horrific, the way
0:09:31 > 0:09:34in which refugees and migrants are often forced to travel. It is
0:09:34 > 0:09:39horrific, and very frequently deadly. But what has happened is, by
0:09:39 > 0:09:43focusing so much on the journey of these people, we have created a
0:09:43 > 0:09:46different category of human being. Those who have crossed the
0:09:46 > 0:09:49Mediterranean on a small rubber dinghy or crawled underneath the
0:09:49 > 0:09:53barbed wire on the US Mexican border are different from us. We have made
0:09:53 > 0:09:56into another category of person, and then there's other category can be
0:09:56 > 0:10:00dealt with, I think, inhumanely. When you take away that part that
0:10:00 > 0:10:04makes them different, they are simply people who are in place, and
0:10:04 > 0:10:07then left the place for another place, which everyone of us has
0:10:07 > 0:10:11done, even if it is just leaving a Paris houses to move out on our own.
0:10:11 > 0:10:16And so my intent was not to devalue, de- emphasise that part of the
0:10:16 > 0:10:22story, but to establish a kind of similarity between migrant
0:10:22 > 0:10:27communities and every else.To make them seem less different.Yes,
0:10:27 > 0:10:31because at the end of the day, what I think we are encountering is not
0:10:31 > 0:10:35so much that there is a conflict between two are the kinds of
0:10:35 > 0:10:37feeling, the feeling of those who are fleeing dangerous geographies
0:10:37 > 0:10:41and the feeling of those who are resisting the arrival of those
0:10:41 > 0:10:45geographies. I think actually the feelings are very similar. The idea
0:10:45 > 0:10:49of losing the place where you grew up Kennecott both because you change
0:10:49 > 0:10:53geographies, and it can occur because you are starting to feel
0:10:53 > 0:10:57foreign in a place where you yourself have grown up. And so if we
0:10:57 > 0:11:00can recognise that the sorrow of these two experiences is similar, we
0:11:00 > 0:11:03can get beyond the kind of fruitless notion of inevitable conflict
0:11:03 > 0:11:08between these two divisions.There is a phrase in the book where you
0:11:08 > 0:11:12describe the passage they make from their war-torn home to a new life
0:11:12 > 0:11:17which ends up being for a long time in London, but then they actually
0:11:17 > 0:11:21make another move to California. The passage, you say, was both like
0:11:21 > 0:11:28dying and like the board. Now, I am interested in the just edition of
0:11:28 > 0:11:31the two -- like being born. It says something about your own life as
0:11:31 > 0:11:34well when you lived in those different places, that yes, huge
0:11:34 > 0:11:37amount of opportunity came your way, but there was also, always, a sense
0:11:37 > 0:11:42of sorrow and loss as well.There is, I mean, there is an emotional
0:11:42 > 0:11:47violence to moving that we often don't give enough consideration. And
0:11:47 > 0:11:52the echoes of that emotional violence can go... Proceed through
0:11:52 > 0:11:55our lifetime and across generations. When, for example, if I were to
0:11:55 > 0:12:01leave Pakistan again, my children everyday play with their
0:12:01 > 0:12:04grandparents. Let's say we were to move somewhere far away and they
0:12:04 > 0:12:09were to see them once a week... Once a year for a week. That relationship
0:12:09 > 0:12:15would, in a sense, end. And there is an enormous sorrow to that ending. I
0:12:15 > 0:12:19think people do experience incredible senses of loss when they
0:12:19 > 0:12:23leave the place, and it is important to recognise that. When we say what
0:12:23 > 0:12:27has this person done, what have they given up to be here, the answer is,
0:12:27 > 0:12:32when you say that of the refugee, the migrant, they have given up
0:12:32 > 0:12:35everything. And the emotional consequences of that are huge.And
0:12:35 > 0:12:38one interesting... It is only one, but one interesting element of how
0:12:38 > 0:12:43they tried to maintain and memory of where they came from, is actually
0:12:43 > 0:12:48the use of religion as a vehicle and prayer as a way of reconnecting. And
0:12:48 > 0:12:53I'm particularly interested, because you of course are also the author of
0:12:53 > 0:12:56The Reluctant Fundamentalist, which looked at the relationship to in the
0:12:56 > 0:12:59West and the Muslim world through the eyes of a young man meeting an
0:12:59 > 0:13:04American, a young Pakistani man. And in this book, you have another young
0:13:04 > 0:13:10man, Saeed, who turns to prayer. And is your message that sometimes
0:13:10 > 0:13:14religion, in this case the Muslim religion, can be a means of trying
0:13:14 > 0:13:19to maintain an identity?Well, certainly it can be. I think that
0:13:19 > 0:13:27what has happened is that many... Was it for you, by the way?Religion
0:13:27 > 0:13:33as a way of maintaining my identity? I would say that, in a sense, I have
0:13:33 > 0:13:37been made conscious of muslins as a group because of how I am treated by
0:13:37 > 0:13:42other people. So when I arrived on the Eurostar from Paris in London
0:13:42 > 0:13:46recently, everybody walked off the train, we had already been through
0:13:46 > 0:13:50immigration, I have a UK passport, but I was stopped by some of it and
0:13:50 > 0:13:54asked a whole bunch of questions, and I think it is to do with
0:13:54 > 0:13:58belonging to this group. So yes, to a certain extent.And did that make
0:13:58 > 0:14:01you feel resentful, angry? Didn't actually reinforce this feeling of
0:14:01 > 0:14:05being the other?Yes, it did those things. It made me sad more than
0:14:05 > 0:14:10those are the feelings, because I think that the UK has been better
0:14:10 > 0:14:14than many countries at not having this sort of sense of constant
0:14:14 > 0:14:19surveillance.
0:14:19 > 0:14:20Is that why
0:14:20 > 0:14:24Is that why you left the United States after 9/11? Because you felt
0:14:24 > 0:14:28like you are being regarded as a potential threat?It wasn't the
0:14:28 > 0:14:31reason. I was living in London a couple of months before it happened.
0:14:31 > 0:14:36It was perhaps the reason I didn't go back after I initially had
0:14:36 > 0:14:42planned to do. It was at the George Bush, the second George Bush
0:14:42 > 0:14:46administration and a lot of wars were starting and London felt very
0:14:46 > 0:14:50conducive as this kind of international hub of thinking,
0:14:50 > 0:14:55writing, people protesting the Iraq war. I felt culturally, politically,
0:14:55 > 0:14:59in a sense, more at home in London in those days.And yet, in the end
0:14:59 > 0:15:05it brings us back to where we began this conversation, questions of
0:15:05 > 0:15:09identity and belonging. He went back to Pakistan. Despite everything you
0:15:09 > 0:15:14have said about the universality of the human experience and values, you
0:15:14 > 0:15:22in the end did what so many people did, you went home.I am not
0:15:22 > 0:15:31somebody who is a rootless mongrel wandering the earth. Although that
0:15:31 > 0:15:36is no worse or better than any other kind of person. I am living in the
0:15:36 > 0:15:42same place I lived as a child. After having wandered in all these places.
0:15:42 > 0:15:48In Athens, the reverse migration from the one is the overbearing in
0:15:48 > 0:15:53so much of the world. From the poor world to the rich world. -- in a
0:15:53 > 0:15:58sense. You made it in the rich world, you became a consultant,
0:15:58 > 0:16:03Golden egg job and then you decided to be a writer and had written best
0:16:03 > 0:16:08sellers. You were a success in New York, in London and yet, you decided
0:16:08 > 0:16:13you wanted to make it your life in Pakistan and eight S8 many of your
0:16:13 > 0:16:19friends said you are crazy. Yellow that people thought it was a strange
0:16:19 > 0:16:26decision. -- many people thought it was a strange decision. -- and in a
0:16:26 > 0:16:31sense.Migration has always been away for human beings to find what
0:16:31 > 0:16:36they are looking for. Homo sapiens are not involved on the British
0:16:36 > 0:16:40Isles. People came here over thousands of years and they keep
0:16:40 > 0:16:46coming. They don't necessarily stay. People whose ancestors have moved on
0:16:46 > 0:16:50to America, some might come back this way. I think we can migrate and
0:16:50 > 0:16:58return.This is where I struggle to keep up with you because it seems to
0:16:58 > 0:17:03me, when you talk about the migration of the future in which you
0:17:03 > 0:17:09say, and I am going to quote you've, " I imagine when people are finally
0:17:09 > 0:17:13free to move as they please around our planet, they will look back at
0:17:13 > 0:17:17our moment now and wonder just as we wonder about those who kept slaves,
0:17:17 > 0:17:21how people who seemed so modern could do such cool things to their
0:17:21 > 0:17:25fellow human beings like caging them up as animals"
0:17:25 > 0:17:27fellow human beings like caging them up as animals". Your implication
0:17:27 > 0:17:33being, we will reach this sort of heavenly moment where migration is
0:17:33 > 0:17:36just completely normal, acceptable, easy and accessible to everybody on
0:17:36 > 0:17:41this planet. I put it to you that flies in the face of everything
0:17:41 > 0:17:48about the human condition and human history.Well, I think human history
0:17:48 > 0:17:51and a human condition is a march towards greater equality. Until
0:17:51 > 0:17:56recently, the idea that black people would be slaves in a part of America
0:17:56 > 0:18:01in a certain part of history was common. The idea that women were
0:18:01 > 0:18:05inferior to men or that gay people should have the same rights as
0:18:05 > 0:18:11straight people will stop all these things have changed. -- is straight
0:18:11 > 0:18:16people. All these things have changed.What hasn't changed are
0:18:16 > 0:18:19these strains of nationalism and populism and building borders.
0:18:19 > 0:18:24Today, we can say that there is something about all of human history
0:18:24 > 0:18:32that yes, there are constant movement -- movements, which have
0:18:32 > 0:18:37involved epic amount of killing and bloodshed.I don't think they have.
0:18:37 > 0:18:42Look at the history of north America, South America, Central
0:18:42 > 0:18:45Asia. Almost any geographical part of the world is full of such
0:18:45 > 0:18:50stories.Yes, there have been violence associated with migration
0:18:50 > 0:18:54but it's not necessarily the case. In North America, there was a
0:18:54 > 0:18:58genocide. The free Colombian population was wiped out, as
0:18:58 > 0:19:02effectively. I have brown skin because tens of thousands of years,
0:19:02 > 0:19:07lighter skinned people have come into the darker skinned places that
0:19:07 > 0:19:11they didn't actually massacre each other and result in lighter skinned
0:19:11 > 0:19:15people surviving. They stuck around and into next. Most of human history
0:19:15 > 0:19:20is I think like that. It is not genocide after genocide. Frequently,
0:19:20 > 0:19:26I think, most often, we don't engage in genocide.I alluded to this
0:19:26 > 0:19:35earlier, where you would acknowledge that you are -- your rather
0:19:35 > 0:19:40optimistic view on migration and the intermingling of peoples, whether it
0:19:40 > 0:19:45is reflective of having a gilded life.I think probably it is. In
0:19:45 > 0:19:53that said, I think there are two strong reasons to believe it is
0:19:53 > 0:19:58going to happen. One reason is the pressure of migration is going to
0:19:58 > 0:20:01become enormous. If we are truly going to resist it, we will no
0:20:01 > 0:20:07longer be able to simply outsource to Libya and Turkey, we will have
0:20:07 > 0:20:14two actively kill people who want to come. Direct barriers stop catch
0:20:14 > 0:20:17those who get through. Catch those who try to help those get through.
0:20:17 > 0:20:23We will begin to...You are saying there is no middle ground? There is
0:20:23 > 0:20:27no control that is possible in a humanitarian way?There never has
0:20:27 > 0:20:32been. When have people stopped moving? We have always moved, it is
0:20:32 > 0:20:36the nature of humanity. We have never been confined to geographies
0:20:36 > 0:20:40in this way. The population of Africa was a small fraction of
0:20:40 > 0:20:45Europe 50 years ago. It will be multiples 50 years hence. When
0:20:45 > 0:20:50climate changes, people will move. One would hope we won't have the
0:20:50 > 0:20:54stomach, I hope, to inflict the atrocities and create the
0:20:54 > 0:20:58totalitarian societies that will resist it. We actually need to think
0:20:58 > 0:21:03about ourselves as humans and less divided to solve the most pressing
0:21:03 > 0:21:08problems we face. Climate change cannot be solved by country thinking
0:21:08 > 0:21:12of national self interest. The issue of migration I don't think will be
0:21:12 > 0:21:17addressed if -- in this way. The most important issue is how we will
0:21:17 > 0:21:20regulate and manage technology. We are on the verge of giving birth to
0:21:20 > 0:21:24intelligent machines that can think. How are we going to regulate this?
0:21:24 > 0:21:29How will we share the benefits? They could potentially create great
0:21:29 > 0:21:33surpluses but if they accrue to just one dozen trillion as in California
0:21:33 > 0:21:37is and the rest of us lose our jobs, it is not a very pleasant planet.
0:21:37 > 0:21:42All of this requires a more human thinking.And they use it in
0:21:42 > 0:21:45Pakistan. I want to end by coming back to your current life in
0:21:45 > 0:21:49Pakistan. You have left California where you just said, so many of
0:21:49 > 0:21:53these developments in TEC have come from and you are now looking in at
0:21:53 > 0:22:00population of 200 million that is mainly poverty. These are
0:22:00 > 0:22:05disheartening times. -- tech. You feel more disheartened about the
0:22:05 > 0:22:08direction of your company because the question has become about who is
0:22:08 > 0:22:14Muslim enough and the answer appears to be nobody 's is Muslim enough.
0:22:14 > 0:22:18After all of your optimism about what humanity can achieve and the
0:22:18 > 0:22:26values that we idea lies, actually, your own home, you seem to think, is
0:22:26 > 0:22:30in very profound trouble.It is in trouble but I think it can get out.
0:22:30 > 0:22:33That is important for us to begin to articulate optimistic visions of
0:22:33 > 0:22:39politics, the future, culture. What we are facing right now is that
0:22:39 > 0:22:41dominant of the spellcheck pessimistic visions. If you are
0:22:41 > 0:22:45pessimistic about having a more equal world, you tend to think it is
0:22:45 > 0:22:49a good idea to make America great again.Thanks for putting that
0:22:49 > 0:22:55phrasing. I just noted Donald Trump's first tweet at 2018,
0:22:55 > 0:23:02directed at Pakistan. "They Have given us nothing but lies and deceit
0:23:02 > 0:23:06giving safe haven to the terrorists we are hunting for in Afghanistan. "
0:23:06 > 0:23:11It seems to me that right now you are living in a part of the world
0:23:11 > 0:23:15that giving the messages being sent by Donald Trump and the current
0:23:15 > 0:23:19American administration is going to be a cockpit of tension and trouble.
0:23:19 > 0:23:23Yes, but, what we are seeing is an older generation that has migrated
0:23:23 > 0:23:28to becoming older, it is in power right now. Disproportionately, they
0:23:28 > 0:23:32want these barriers for the younger Americans disproportionately did not
0:23:32 > 0:23:38vote for Donald Trump and younger British did not vote for Brexit.
0:23:38 > 0:23:42Younger people are more comfortable with this openness. This is how
0:23:42 > 0:23:46civilisation evolves. We don't suddenly become enlightened. The
0:23:46 > 0:23:50older generation, people like us who have more closed minded views,
0:23:50 > 0:23:55eventually die. We each achieve the great Brexit in the sky. And then
0:23:55 > 0:23:59the younger people who are left who are still here will take us into
0:23:59 > 0:24:02domains with can't imagine including people moving around the world in
0:24:02 > 0:24:06the way that today we think about as very strange.You are one of the
0:24:06 > 0:24:11most optimistic people I have ever met.Well, I am a father. It is my
0:24:11 > 0:24:15job to the optimistic was not pessimism is feeding a medical
0:24:15 > 0:24:21reactionary thinking. -- political reactionary thinking.We have to
0:24:21 > 0:24:27went there. Thank you for being on HARDtalk. -- we have to end there.