0:00:00 > 0:00:14Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:14 > 0:00:19Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Sarah Montague. The woman who forced coin
0:00:19 > 0:00:24the slogan Black Lives Matter and is the American Patrisse Khan-Cullors.
0:00:24 > 0:00:31She first used it as a hashtag on a friend's Facebook post back in 2013.
0:00:31 > 0:00:35Since then, Black Lives Matter has taken off as a political movement
0:00:35 > 0:00:39around the world. She has now written about her own experience of
0:00:39 > 0:00:45growing up in a poor black family in California and how she is convinced
0:00:45 > 0:00:50that it races and state violence against African-Americans can be
0:00:50 > 0:00:54stopped, then other problems in the black community such as poverty,
0:00:54 > 0:01:00poor education and crime will disappear too. Is she right? And is
0:01:00 > 0:01:04a movement founded on a hashtag have any part to play in finding a
0:01:04 > 0:01:32solution? Patrisse Khan-Cullors, welcome to HARDtalk Thank you for
0:01:32 > 0:01:39having me. When you typed hashtag Black Lives Matter to the bottom of
0:01:39 > 0:01:44your friend's Facebook post, what were you thinking?I was thinking
0:01:44 > 0:01:51that our generation wasn't going to allow George Zimmerman to have the
0:01:51 > 0:01:57end of the story in Treyvon Martin's death.George Zimmerman was the man
0:01:57 > 0:02:03convicted of the death of Treyvon Martin.-- acquitted. The moment he
0:02:03 > 0:02:06was acquitted, I was full of despair but rather quickly understood there
0:02:06 > 0:02:15had to be a new conversation about and antiblack racism in this country
0:02:15 > 0:02:21in the world.But things must have irritated you and others. What made
0:02:21 > 0:02:26it about that moment that made you feel that and made it travel as it
0:02:26 > 0:02:31did?I think it was witnessing George Zimmerman and the trial
0:02:31 > 0:02:35against in actually be a trial against Treyvon Martin. It was
0:02:35 > 0:02:40spending an entire year waiting for a justice system that has
0:02:40 > 0:02:45historically been terrible to black communities give this white passing
0:02:45 > 0:02:49person are passed to go home after murdering a child. I think it was
0:02:49 > 0:02:57spending time in my life seen over policing in my neighbourhood, over
0:02:57 > 0:03:01incarceration in my neighbourhood and it came to a head when George
0:03:01 > 0:03:07Zimmerman was acquitted.This was an unarmed black man, a youngster, a
0:03:07 > 0:03:22teenager.Yes.You've written about it in your book, When They Call You
0:03:22 > 0:03:25a Terrorist, and talking about your experiences, when you talked about
0:03:25 > 0:03:27incarceration of those around you, your own father, your brother sent
0:03:27 > 0:03:32to prison but the things they had done wrong.Sometimes. And sometimes
0:03:32 > 0:03:39it was because they were hurting. My father was a drug addict. He was on
0:03:39 > 0:03:47and off of crack cocaine. In the US, we have the war on drugs and so for
0:03:47 > 0:03:51my father, what he needed was care. He needed dignity and instead he was
0:03:51 > 0:03:58given a jail cell, he was given policing. My brother, whose only
0:03:58 > 0:04:03crime has been mental illness, he has schizoaffective disorder, these
0:04:03 > 0:04:08should not be crimes, they should be illnesses as they are.But those
0:04:08 > 0:04:14cases, neither of those peculiar to race, are they? Those cross all
0:04:14 > 0:04:18races in the United States.Of course. Drug addiction and mental
0:04:18 > 0:04:24illness is an issue that everybody faces. It's a universal issue. What
0:04:24 > 0:04:28is not universal is the criminalisation of black people in
0:04:28 > 0:04:32particular and I think important. What we see with my brother, for
0:04:32 > 0:04:38instance, a big black man, in his early years, intervention shouldn't
0:04:38 > 0:04:42have been juvenile hall. The intervention should have been mental
0:04:42 > 0:04:46health treatment and that is different and mostly white
0:04:46 > 0:04:50communities and I have spoken to folks who read the book who said, I
0:04:50 > 0:04:55relate so much to your brother's mental illness but I did not have to
0:04:55 > 0:04:58experienced what he experienced because I am white you, you talk
0:04:58 > 0:05:04about large family, and you grew up, your mother was working a lot of the
0:05:04 > 0:05:08time, you were brought up by an older brother.Yes, yes. And you
0:05:08 > 0:05:13saw, you talk about when you are 12, I think, one of your earliest
0:05:13 > 0:05:18experiences.With the police, I was arrested and detained at my school.
0:05:18 > 0:05:24I had been smoking weed in the girls bathroom. Anthony incident with the
0:05:24 > 0:05:28police didn't happen that day, it happened a couple of days later in
0:05:28 > 0:05:33which a police officer came into my classroom and whispered into my
0:05:33 > 0:05:38teacher's year and the next thing, I am being summoned to the front of
0:05:38 > 0:05:42the classroom, handcuffed in front of my classmates and walked down the
0:05:42 > 0:05:47hallway where I was stopped and frisked and they told me to call my
0:05:47 > 0:05:52mother and let her know why I had been arrested in school.And you
0:05:52 > 0:05:58were taken to...The principal's office.So aged 12, the police were
0:05:58 > 0:06:02called. Because people will listen and think, your father did drugs, he
0:06:02 > 0:06:08was on crack. You were smoking weed when you are 12. Why, what is wrong
0:06:08 > 0:06:15in a way with trying to police that? I think what we've noticed over the
0:06:15 > 0:06:20last 15, 20 years is the war on drugs and didn't actually stop drug
0:06:20 > 0:06:26use. It didn't stop drug selling. In fact, the war on drugs was just an
0:06:26 > 0:06:30excuse to criminalise some of the most marginalised communities. I
0:06:30 > 0:06:36think was also important, and I talk about it in my book, is that I went
0:06:36 > 0:06:44to a middle school with mostly white kids and in my experience, had this
0:06:44 > 0:06:47particular experience when I went to my friend's house, and she
0:06:47 > 0:06:53introduces me to her brother who, you know, just young white kid, and
0:06:53 > 0:06:58she opens up his door, and his countertop is full of drugs,
0:06:58 > 0:07:03literally. Every drug. I had never seen that many drugs in my life. And
0:07:03 > 0:07:08I kind of looked over at her and she didn't really bat an eye but it was
0:07:08 > 0:07:13in that moment that understood, oh, both of our communities are not just
0:07:13 > 0:07:19using drugs but selling them except my community has been criminalise
0:07:19 > 0:07:23for it and he was not afraid at all about the police being in his
0:07:23 > 0:07:27neighbourhood. In fact, I never saw the police in his neighbourhood.And
0:07:27 > 0:07:33your brother, your brother Monty's experiences in prison, and we should
0:07:33 > 0:07:40set this in the context of the prison population. 14% of the United
0:07:40 > 0:07:46States are black but the prison population, 38% are black. You are
0:07:46 > 0:07:50five times more likely to be incarcerated if you are black. And
0:07:50 > 0:07:53the experience, and you didn't particularly know, what your brother
0:07:53 > 0:07:59was going through, it was many years later you discovered.Yes, I knew he
0:07:59 > 0:08:04had been abused by the police but I wouldn't know the extent of the
0:08:04 > 0:08:07abuse or the fact that he was tortured until probably a decade
0:08:07 > 0:08:18later.And how did you find out?I came across an ACLU 86- page
0:08:18 > 0:08:21complaint, the American Civil Liberties Union, and I'd just happen
0:08:21 > 0:08:26to sit in my email inbox, I have it up and saw they were suing the
0:08:26 > 0:08:30Sheriff 's Department and the piqued my interest, a terrible incident
0:08:30 > 0:08:35with the Los Angeles sheriff, so I read the 86- page complaint within
0:08:35 > 0:08:42the power and it was story up on story, 70 sworn statements from
0:08:42 > 0:08:51prisoners but also to boost testimonies were from a jail
0:08:51 > 0:08:54chaplain -- also to of those testimonies were from a jail
0:08:54 > 0:08:58chaplain who had first-hand experience of witnessing the police
0:08:58 > 0:09:01brutality inside a jail. And the second one was someone who worked
0:09:01 > 0:09:06for the ACLU who witnessed a prisoner being beaten by the
0:09:06 > 0:09:09Sheriff's Department and it was almost that moment when I read it
0:09:09 > 0:09:14that I heard my brother's story and I called him, he had just been
0:09:14 > 0:09:17released from State prison, and said the sheriff is being sued and he
0:09:17 > 0:09:22said finally, someone will get justice. And asked him, what
0:09:22 > 0:09:27happened to you? Is this some of the things that happen to you? You said
0:09:27 > 0:09:34yes. It would be over six months to a year that he would tell us the
0:09:34 > 0:09:38extent of what he experienced inside a jail cell. Which was what?
0:09:38 > 0:09:43Brutally beaten by the sheriffs. He was in the middle of a manic
0:09:43 > 0:09:52episode. He was punched, kicked, he said he remembers a sheriff eating a
0:09:52 > 0:10:00panic button and dozens of sheriffs coming out and stomping him until he
0:10:00 > 0:10:04blacked out and when you finally awoke, he was in a pool of his own
0:10:04 > 0:10:08blood. They never took into the infirmary, to get medical care and
0:10:08 > 0:10:14they also had handcuffed him to his bedpost. And for about the next two
0:10:14 > 0:10:20months, they starved him, they turned off water in his cell, he was
0:10:20 > 0:10:25forced to drink from toilet water and my mother had no idea where he
0:10:25 > 0:10:29was. She called up every single day trying to find her son. She went
0:10:29 > 0:10:33there every single weekend trying to visit her son and for about two
0:10:33 > 0:10:38months, the sheriff kept him from us.It prompted you then to take
0:10:38 > 0:10:43action. In fact, you did it through artwork. You are in your late 20s?I
0:10:43 > 0:10:49was about 27 when I first delved into taking on the sheriff's
0:10:49 > 0:10:56department. I did an intimate art piece betraying state violence and
0:10:56 > 0:11:01it was a way to process what I had read and what my family had
0:11:01 > 0:11:06experienced but it was also a way to amplify the issue. I wanted to bring
0:11:06 > 0:11:10this conversation to LA County but one of my friends came and saw the
0:11:10 > 0:11:13performance and said, this isn't enough. This is a great piece but
0:11:13 > 0:11:20you've got to do more. This is happening right now. And I did. I
0:11:20 > 0:11:23would start the first organisation that centred people most directly
0:11:23 > 0:11:28impacted by jail violence.And that was an essential first campaign
0:11:28 > 0:11:32because it resulted in civilian oversight. Exactly. But that
0:11:32 > 0:11:40happened after Black Lives Matter. There are many more black men in
0:11:40 > 0:11:46prison then you would expect from the prison population. 14% of black
0:11:46 > 0:11:52men in the United States, 38% in the prison population. Why do you think
0:11:52 > 0:11:59that is?It's because we spent the last 40 years creating laws that
0:11:59 > 0:12:02criminalise poverty. That criminalise some of the most
0:12:02 > 0:12:09marginalised people. And so what happens is, you have someone who is
0:12:09 > 0:12:13going to school, going to high school and instead of having
0:12:13 > 0:12:16counsellors, they have police officers on the campus so what might
0:12:16 > 0:12:20be something that got you sent to the principles of this 30 years ago
0:12:20 > 0:12:25is now something that will get you a misdemeanour or a felony. What we
0:12:25 > 0:12:30have is a community of people who are struggling to raise their
0:12:30 > 0:12:35children, feed their children, give their children shelter and so might
0:12:35 > 0:12:40try to steal food and instead of dealing with the issue of poverty,
0:12:40 > 0:12:46we have people criminalising poverty.But poverty affects whites
0:12:46 > 0:12:56just as much as blacks.Yes, and racism becomes the key factor. Race
0:12:56 > 0:13:01and the history of race inside the US becomes very important for us to
0:13:01 > 0:13:06delve into.But where it is at play? Are you saying that more black
0:13:06 > 0:13:11people are poor because of racism? Yes, and also say in more black
0:13:11 > 0:13:15people I could analyse because of racism.But there are some
0:13:15 > 0:13:21interesting statistics highlighted by the African-American S East Debra
0:13:21 > 0:13:26Dickerson saying the race of criminals reported by crime victims
0:13:26 > 0:13:30matches the arrest data which suggests the police are not over
0:13:30 > 0:13:34arresting black people more than white people.I think that's an
0:13:34 > 0:13:39interesting statistic. What we have to look at is, we the police and up,
0:13:39 > 0:13:46which communities? I mentioned earlier, I am in a community where
0:13:46 > 0:13:53over policing is happening. We have police from morning until sundown.
0:13:53 > 0:13:56And families and communities are being criminalised by police but
0:13:56 > 0:14:00then you go to Sherman Oaks which is a neighbourhood over, the same
0:14:00 > 0:14:03things could be happening and yet those communities aren't
0:14:03 > 0:14:07criminalised.
0:14:07 > 0:14:13Is a powerful statistic that when someone is reporting a crime, they
0:14:13 > 0:14:17say they are black, they say they are white. The ratio is the same as
0:14:17 > 0:14:25the rates -- arrests. When it comes to actual arrests made, if that
0:14:25 > 0:14:31matches those who are reporting crime...The question then becomes
0:14:31 > 0:14:38about conviction. Did the people who get arrested, who ends up getting
0:14:38 > 0:14:42convicted? That is where that statistic lacks. Who is convicted of
0:14:42 > 0:14:50the crimes they say they committed and what we note time and time again
0:14:50 > 0:14:53is that black folks are over convicted even of crimes they might
0:14:53 > 0:14:58have never done. Crimes they may have done but instead of getting a
0:14:58 > 0:15:03misdemeanour, and in or getting to go home, they are convicted.OK. So,
0:15:03 > 0:15:08the suggestion is that in a way, it is all through the system even if
0:15:08 > 0:15:12you can't prove it. So the criminal justice system itself is racist.
0:15:12 > 0:15:20Definitely. Definitely. And this is something that we don't need
0:15:20 > 0:15:24statistics for. I mean, statistics are important that there is a
0:15:24 > 0:15:28history of racism by the criminal justice system. Let's think about
0:15:28 > 0:15:37how many young black folks, how many black folks who had mob violence,
0:15:37 > 0:15:40easing cause to identify black people and put them in jail or
0:15:40 > 0:15:43prison, digging them inflated sentences, giving them enhancements.
0:15:43 > 0:15:48There is a history of this in the US. -- giving them inflated centred
0:15:48 > 0:15:59us.There is a difficulty. It has been highlighted by campaigns like
0:15:59 > 0:16:04Black Lives Matter. One of the consequences is you have policed who
0:16:04 > 0:16:10are afraid to go into black communities. 78% of police say they
0:16:10 > 0:16:15are less willing to stop-and-search. The difficulty of that is that it's
0:16:15 > 0:16:20the black community, the law-abiding members, who will suffer from that.
0:16:20 > 0:16:24Young, and I think we have to look at why harm and violence are
0:16:24 > 0:16:29happening in communities in the first place. -- yeah. When we
0:16:29 > 0:16:34neglect looking at the root issues, you get a country or a state or a
0:16:34 > 0:16:38city that uses police at the mental health providers. They use police as
0:16:38 > 0:16:42social workers, they use police as domestic violence workers and that
0:16:42 > 0:16:46is not what they are. The police are the police.So the police are not
0:16:46 > 0:16:51the solution to that problem. Precisely.What I wonder if your
0:16:51 > 0:16:59relationship with the police. The police are at war with us. If that
0:16:59 > 0:17:04had you feel?Of course was up I felt that way as a child. The first
0:17:04 > 0:17:07police experience I had was when they raided my home as a
0:17:07 > 0:17:12four-year-old. And they didn't look at me my sister my siblings or ask
0:17:12 > 0:17:18us how we were doing. They our home, they brought in multiple police
0:17:18 > 0:17:23officers, they scared my mother and my family. And so there has never
0:17:23 > 0:17:30been a moment in which black folks have had a healthy relationship with
0:17:30 > 0:17:37law enforcement.OK, so how do you get that? Presumably, that's the
0:17:37 > 0:17:41game.I think the aim is creating an environment where people feel safe.
0:17:41 > 0:17:47And safety isn't always a badge and a gun. We have an idea of safety
0:17:47 > 0:17:53that has largely been created by policing but safety is people being
0:17:53 > 0:18:02able to each... -- eat.But listening to you, you don't have
0:18:02 > 0:18:09solution... Police have a role in society. Sellar tried to get to
0:18:09 > 0:18:13another point. When communities don't have jobs, they don't have
0:18:13 > 0:18:18access to healthy food, they don't have access to public education,
0:18:18 > 0:18:22harm happens and we need to talk about that and we have spent too
0:18:22 > 0:18:25much time talking about fixing the police and not enough time talking
0:18:25 > 0:18:31about how do we ensure black employment rates go up. How do we
0:18:31 > 0:18:34ensure black folks are able to stay in their homes and fight
0:18:34 > 0:18:38gentrification. These are the conversation that need to be
0:18:38 > 0:18:44happening. -- conversations. I hear someone in the black community sang,
0:18:44 > 0:18:48hang on a second, I was mugged and we need someone to deal with that.
0:18:48 > 0:18:52I'm not saying don't. I'm saying we only talk about the police will stop
0:18:52 > 0:18:57that becomes the focus.Do you recognise that you need, in a way,
0:18:57 > 0:19:03are you at war with the police? Definitely not. Definitely not. In
0:19:03 > 0:19:07fact, if you grew up in a black neighbourhood, you try to avoid
0:19:07 > 0:19:11police. What you are often told is the police are behind us, don't look
0:19:11 > 0:19:17back, you don't want to cause any attention. You don't want it to seem
0:19:17 > 0:19:20like you are doing anything wrong. We are attracting attention from the
0:19:20 > 0:19:30police. Also, you know, I come from the tradition of abolition. I want
0:19:30 > 0:19:34to be honest. Eventually, I don't want to seek the police being the
0:19:34 > 0:19:38ways in which our community deals with harm and violence. I think we
0:19:38 > 0:19:42need to think outside the box. This becomes our moment where it is about
0:19:42 > 0:19:45philosophy and we have to talk about how that philosophy meshes with
0:19:45 > 0:19:52practice.In a way, here you are representing Black Lives Matter
0:19:52 > 0:20:00which you found it and the answers, the policies put forward on policing
0:20:00 > 0:20:03are the same whether it's in the black community or the white
0:20:03 > 0:20:06community, it's not like the black community wants something different
0:20:06 > 0:20:11from the approach to drugs, for example.Do know about that I don't
0:20:11 > 0:20:15think we have heard enough from black folks to give a concrete
0:20:15 > 0:20:19cancer. What we do know is that people want to make sure that in
0:20:19 > 0:20:23their life, they don't want to have to train their child to keep
0:20:23 > 0:20:32themselves safe from the police. --A concrete answer. When my mother sits
0:20:32 > 0:20:36me down and says, when you come across in the police, be careful,
0:20:36 > 0:20:40you might get killed. That doesn't happen in white communities.What do
0:20:40 > 0:20:46you feel like when you come across a policeman now?Scared. Still scared.
0:20:46 > 0:20:54I have a somatic response to law-enforcement. I am respectful, I
0:20:54 > 0:20:57sometimes have officers who do security for me at events so I am
0:20:57 > 0:21:02grateful. And for me, it's not about individual law enforcement, it's
0:21:02 > 0:21:06about the system of policing and that, to me, isn't so important. I
0:21:06 > 0:21:11have policed better in my family. But it is the system of law
0:21:11 > 0:21:14enforcement that we have to look at. You are talking about really
0:21:14 > 0:21:20changing the whole of society.I am. And you think that Black Lives
0:21:20 > 0:21:26Matter have a role in that. Sellar think we have, yes. Some people say,
0:21:26 > 0:21:31look, for a while it was temporarily a fashion on social media. What
0:21:31 > 0:21:36makes it last? It is just a movement, isn't it? And yes, it's
0:21:36 > 0:21:45taken off but it's also been eclipsed by the latest social media
0:21:45 > 0:21:56movements like me too and time is up Mac. -- Time's Up. What makes it
0:21:56 > 0:22:03last?Most of us are invested in building it further than what it was
0:22:03 > 0:22:08on social media. We have 40 chapters across the world, across the US and
0:22:08 > 0:22:14Canada and here in the United Kingdom.With what aim? Militant
0:22:14 > 0:22:18action?Sometimes, sometimes as direct action, sometimes of civil
0:22:18 > 0:22:28desert that -- is disobedience, it is similar to what Act Up did around
0:22:28 > 0:22:33giving folks medicine when they were dying of AIDS. We are having a
0:22:33 > 0:22:36conversation because black people are dying at the hands of the state
0:22:36 > 0:22:40and oftentimes, nobody is caring. Indirect and direct action...So
0:22:40 > 0:22:48it's about protesting, what, locally?That is our aim and mission
0:22:48 > 0:22:52but also, when they come to the United Kingdom or Canada, it is also
0:22:52 > 0:22:55to build relationships with folks that are using Black Lives Matter,
0:22:55 > 0:23:04that a part of our network.But you are a protest movement, you are not
0:23:04 > 0:23:08going to endorse or promote candidates?We might. We are looking
0:23:08 > 0:23:14at what it might look like to run for office. We are in an exploratory
0:23:14 > 0:23:23phase.Under a Black Lives Matter and?Yes.You are seeing this very
0:23:23 > 0:23:29confidently. Would you?I have been approached to run for office. Some
0:23:29 > 0:23:36folks are talking about state, some local, just approached, I haven't
0:23:36 > 0:23:40said yes but it is a conversation and we have seen this in bed
0:23:40 > 0:23:47trajectory of many protest movements. -- into trajectory. That
0:23:47 > 0:23:51is something that we... We have never been against it but that is
0:23:51 > 0:23:58not something that we thought of as the first place to go to.Is that
0:23:58 > 0:24:03the aim to have three black senators in the Senate?It is to grow a
0:24:03 > 0:24:06movement that can change the material conditions the black
0:24:06 > 0:24:11people.But I wonder if that is the way to do it? To go right to the top
0:24:11 > 0:24:16of the political tree. Sometimes it's both. What I don't want to say
0:24:16 > 0:24:21is we need to abandon protest. What some of the best movements are able
0:24:21 > 0:24:25to continue to protest and continue to fight and Hrovat movement while
0:24:25 > 0:24:28they have someone in office and who are elected officials. When They
0:24:28 > 0:24:37Call You a -- Patrisse Khan-Cullors, thank you for coming on HARDtalk.