0:00:00 > 0:00:02the Iran nuclear deal.
0:00:02 > 0:00:13Now on BBC News - HARDtalk.
0:00:13 > 0:00:19Welcome to HARDtalk. I am Stephen Sackur. The Democratic Republic of
0:00:19 > 0:00:26Congo boasts assets that should make it the envy of all Africa. Plentiful
0:00:26 > 0:00:30land, resources, and the youthful population. But the PRC has never
0:00:30 > 0:00:36come close to fulfilling its potential. Thanks to political
0:00:36 > 0:00:41division, intercommunal violence, and epic levels of corruption. My
0:00:41 > 0:00:47guess today is the DRC's Prime Minister, Bruno Tshibala. Can he is
0:00:47 > 0:00:52country finally find a pathway to prosperity?
0:01:06 > 0:01:18Prime Minister Bruno Tshibala, welcome to HARDtalk.Thank you.Mr
0:01:18 > 0:01:22Prime Minister, would you agree that no African country has been more
0:01:22 > 0:01:29letdown by its political leaders over the last 40 years then it your
0:01:29 > 0:01:37own country, the Democratic Republic of Congo?
0:02:10 > 0:02:16But isn't it your own leader, the president of the country today,
0:02:16 > 0:02:22Joseph Kabila, who has generated a huge amount of instability in your
0:02:22 > 0:02:26country by refusing to leave office when he was supposed to leave
0:02:26 > 0:02:33office. His term in office should have finished in December 20 16. It
0:02:33 > 0:02:38is still not clear, even today, if he is prepared to leave the
0:02:38 > 0:02:41presidency.
0:03:49 > 0:03:55Prime Minister, that deal is not really worth the paper it is written
0:03:55 > 0:03:58on. In several important ways, President Kabila has already broken
0:03:58 > 0:04:05the transition deal that was signed in December 2016. That deal made it
0:04:05 > 0:04:10clear that the Prime Minister should be nominated by the opposition, but
0:04:10 > 0:04:14you were the Prime Minister and you were not nominated by the
0:04:14 > 0:04:20opposition, you were nominated by President Kabila himself.
0:04:44 > 0:04:49Exactly. The president pointed your Prime Minister. The opposition did
0:04:49 > 0:04:53not choose you, the President chose you. In fact, the leader of your own
0:04:53 > 0:04:57opposition party, when you decided to cross the lines and joined the
0:04:57 > 0:05:08government as Prime Minister, your own leader of the macro six party,
0:05:08 > 0:05:13which was your party, said he needs the money. And by appointing Bruno
0:05:13 > 0:05:17Tshibala, President Kabila has violated the terms of the transition
0:05:17 > 0:05:38agreement.
0:05:42 > 0:05:47You make it sound so smooth, Mr Prime Minister, but in fact what you
0:05:47 > 0:05:53did was seen by the opposition in the DRC as a betrayal. You are a
0:05:53 > 0:05:57former opposition man, you are now at the head of a government which is
0:05:57 > 0:06:10shooting political protest is. How do you feel about that?
0:06:33 > 0:06:38Why have your troops been firing tear gas into churches? Why have
0:06:38 > 0:06:42dozens of people being killed? And why is the spokesman of the
0:06:42 > 0:06:47President now describing the Catholic Church as a Trojan horse of
0:06:47 > 0:06:53ambitious politicians who are hiding inside churches? What is going on
0:06:53 > 0:06:57here?
0:07:37 > 0:07:42How many political prisoners are there in B DRC today, Prime
0:07:42 > 0:07:49Minister? Just give me a number.
0:07:54 > 0:07:59Two cases. How is it the Secretary General of the UN stabilisation
0:07:59 > 0:08:06Mission in your country, on the fifth of January, expressed deep
0:08:06 > 0:08:11concern that at least 107 political prisoners are currently in
0:08:11 > 0:08:33detention. Hang on. Are you accusing the chief of the UN stabilisation
0:08:33 > 0:08:45Mission of lining? -- lying?
0:08:53 > 0:08:57Well, that sounds like a very subtle distinction to me. The same
0:08:57 > 0:09:02stabilisation Mission said this in January, that is just two short
0:09:02 > 0:09:07months ago. Journalist, political opponents, and civil society
0:09:07 > 0:09:16activists are the systematic targets of violations by Agence of the State
0:09:16 > 0:09:25and 98%, 98% of the perpetrators of these abuses, estate agents, are
0:09:25 > 0:09:30enjoying impunity, they never being prosecuted. -- state agents.
0:10:23 > 0:10:30You seem to have a very subtle view of what represents an opposition
0:10:30 > 0:10:37activist. But I put this to you, I wonder how your own conscience fails
0:10:37 > 0:10:42when, in October 2017, dozens of opposition members, from your own
0:10:42 > 0:10:49political party, were arrested. And you are now the Prime Minister
0:10:49 > 0:10:52overseeing a security force that is arresting members of your own party.
0:10:52 > 0:10:57How did you feel about that?
0:11:36 > 0:11:41So your former party colleagues, your former party colleagues have
0:11:41 > 0:11:44now become revolutionaries, have they? They are fermenting an
0:11:44 > 0:11:49uprising. What strikes me is that your first duty as Prime Minister is
0:11:49 > 0:11:53to ensure the peace and stability of your nation, but you seem, with
0:11:53 > 0:11:57respect, in the past EU have been in your job, to have completely failed.
0:11:57 > 0:12:05The International Crisis Group says that right now in DRC at least ten
0:12:05 > 0:12:10provinces are in the grip of armed conflict, generating one of the
0:12:10 > 0:12:14world's worst humanitarian crises. So there is no stability in your
0:12:14 > 0:12:19country today.
0:12:54 > 0:12:57But, Mr Prime Minister, you seem very confident the elections will
0:12:57 > 0:13:04take place at the end of this year. You know that right now in the west
0:13:04 > 0:13:13of your country and in the east of your country there are the most
0:13:13 > 0:13:17terrible, terrible violent conflict is taking place. We are seeing
0:13:17 > 0:13:22civilians, including women and children, being murdered. And there
0:13:22 > 0:13:25are very serious allegations from independent human rights groups,
0:13:25 > 0:13:33backed by the United Nations, that the DRC armed forces are involved in
0:13:33 > 0:13:39some of those egregious abuses. Are you aware of that? And do you
0:13:39 > 0:13:49believe that is true?
0:14:04 > 0:14:07Take care.
0:14:07 > 0:14:14this militia you are talking about... But are just want to be
0:14:14 > 0:14:18clear with our audience who do not know, this militia you are talking
0:14:18 > 0:14:22about who has beheaded people, has killed pregnant women and their
0:14:22 > 0:14:28unborn foetuses, this militia is accused of being in alliance with
0:14:28 > 0:14:30elements of your own armed forces.
0:15:17 > 0:15:29But, Prime Minister, Prime Minister is I... The thing is, Prime
0:15:29 > 0:15:33Minister, there is a very serious allegation at the heart of this
0:15:33 > 0:15:37humanitarian crisis in your country and I put it to you in the words of
0:15:37 > 0:15:42the National Federation for human rights. They said recently, "The
0:15:42 > 0:15:46atrocities being committed in DRC are part of a scheme of President
0:15:46 > 0:15:52Joseph Kabila's regime to mobilise tension and violence in order to
0:15:52 > 0:15:53retain power"
0:15:53 > 0:15:57tension and violence in order to retain power". That is a very
0:15:57 > 0:16:00shocking allegation.
0:16:47 > 0:16:53You make it sound as though all of these humanitarian and security
0:16:53 > 0:16:58problems are in the past at the figures suggest they're not. In the
0:16:58 > 0:17:03last year, nearly 2 million of your citizens have been forced to flee
0:17:03 > 0:17:07from their homes because of violence. That's the figure from
0:17:07 > 0:17:11Care International, one of the NGOs that works in your country. I put it
0:17:11 > 0:17:15to you that when you tell me the election will take place definitely,
0:17:15 > 0:17:21for sure, in December 2018, it is impossible to imagine how a
0:17:21 > 0:17:27meaningful free, fair, safe election can take place in this context. How
0:17:27 > 0:17:29can it?
0:18:09 > 0:18:13Perhaps the single thing that could make the biggest difference to the
0:18:13 > 0:18:19situation in your country today is if President Kabila himself would
0:18:19 > 0:18:24confirm publicly, once and for all, that he is not going to run again,
0:18:24 > 0:18:28he is not going to seek to change the Constitution, he is not going to
0:18:28 > 0:18:34seek a third term in office and then perhaps the DIC could begin to look
0:18:34 > 0:18:45to a new future. -- DRC. Will the president say those words?
0:18:59 > 0:19:06Do you trust, do you trust, do you trust... Do you trust President
0:19:06 > 0:19:08Kabila?
0:19:55 > 0:19:59Because in the end, Mr Prime Minister, you have an important job
0:19:59 > 0:20:02but let's be honest, if the President who calls the shots in
0:20:02 > 0:20:07your country so if he wants to run for a third term, you're not going
0:20:07 > 0:20:12to be able to stop him. Not only that, he also, he and his family,
0:20:12 > 0:20:18control unimaginable amounts of wealth in the DRC today. They sit at
0:20:18 > 0:20:21the top of what many people believed to be one of the most corrupt
0:20:21 > 0:20:34systems of governance in the entire world. 13 million of your people, 8
0:20:34 > 0:20:36million children, currently need humanitarian assistance and security
0:20:36 > 0:20:40protection because of the crisis in your country and at the very same
0:20:40 > 0:20:49time, there is a small elite who are making vast amounts of money from
0:20:49 > 0:20:52the mines, from the foreign companies, from the revenues that
0:20:52 > 0:20:56come from the mining industry and most of that money, according to the
0:20:56 > 0:21:01global witness group, is not go into the DRC Treasury, to be spent on
0:21:01 > 0:21:09healthcare and education. Now, you, as Prime Minister, have not tackled
0:21:09 > 0:21:12that corruption, have you?
0:21:42 > 0:21:49If I may, I'm sorry to interrupt. Global Witness had done a lot of
0:21:49 > 0:21:53work on the mining revenues that come from all of the different mines
0:21:53 > 0:21:59you have, the foreign companies that pay revenues to the DRC government,
0:21:59 > 0:22:06according to Global Witness, several 100 and $50 million worth of those
0:22:06 > 0:22:12revenues never reached the treasury of your government. -- $750 million
0:22:12 > 0:22:18worth. They don't know where that money went, do you know?
0:22:54 > 0:23:01My last question, Prime Minister. I began by suggesting that for many
0:23:01 > 0:23:05decades the politicians, the leaders of DRC have failed the people of
0:23:05 > 0:23:11your country. What promise or what faith can you give to the people of
0:23:11 > 0:23:19your country that the next five and ten years ago to see better, more
0:23:19 > 0:23:20honest leadership?
0:24:12 > 0:24:21Prime Minister, thank you very much for being on HARDtalk.