0:00:00 > 0:00:00Now on BBC News, HARDtalk.
0:00:07 > 0:00:17Welcome to HARDtalk, I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:17 > 0:00:2250 years ago US soldiers committed a war crime that came to haunt the
0:00:22 > 0:00:25doomed mission to rollback communism in Vietnam.
0:00:25 > 0:00:28More than 500 men, women and children were systematically
0:00:28 > 0:00:33slaughtered in the village of My Lai.
0:00:33 > 0:00:36The terrible truth was exposed thanks to the work of investigative
0:00:36 > 0:00:38journalist Seymour Hersh.
0:00:38 > 0:00:41He can look back on a lifetime of reporting that has been
0:00:41 > 0:00:43punctuated by scoops, prizes and plentiful confrontations
0:00:43 > 0:00:45with the powers that be.
0:00:45 > 0:00:4850 years on from My Lai, are journalists still able to tell
0:00:48 > 0:00:52the truth to power?
0:01:23 > 0:01:27Seymour Hersh, welcome to HARDtalk. Hello. White you will have always
0:01:27 > 0:01:31said that key to your journalism was this idea you had of being the
0:01:31 > 0:01:40outsider.Where did that mindset come from?
0:01:40 > 0:01:45I can't psychoanalyse myself, I don't understand it, but I was an
0:01:45 > 0:01:49outsider. I grew up... My parents were immigrants, neither one
0:01:49 > 0:01:53graduated from high school. The only learning I did, the real pressure I
0:01:53 > 0:01:58had, was when I was 13 I was getting the book of the month club, which is
0:01:58 > 0:02:01non-fiction every month, and reading sometimes about the perils of
0:02:01 > 0:02:05communism but also reading about the Hackford monarchy and the Chinese
0:02:05 > 0:02:09history, so I was always reading on myself. As a journalist, I've
0:02:09 > 0:02:15learned two things that I think is important, one you have to read
0:02:15 > 0:02:19before you write, and then when you get the story you've got to get the
0:02:19 > 0:02:23hell out of the way of the story and just know enough to tell it, let the
0:02:23 > 0:02:27words tell it. There's no such thing as a fantastic story, there's a
0:02:27 > 0:02:30story that becomes fantastic in the telling. Those are two things I kept
0:02:30 > 0:02:35in mind always.I'm very aware you came of age, you entered the world
0:02:35 > 0:02:42of work and entered journalism in the 1960s, a time of deeply
0:02:42 > 0:02:45polarised opinion, a time when many young Americans, particularly at
0:02:45 > 0:02:48university and right after it were of an anti-war persuasion, was that
0:02:48 > 0:02:54you?Know, I came in in 60, 19 60. I went to the University of Chicago,
0:02:54 > 0:02:59was an OK student, I hated law school, dropped out, sold beer, what
0:02:59 > 0:03:04kids do, got a job as a police report, crime reporter for the
0:03:04 > 0:03:11agency called the... I learned there that the city was yours as long as
0:03:11 > 0:03:16you... You could be tough on cops as long as you didn't interfere between
0:03:16 > 0:03:16the cops and
0:03:16 > 0:03:17between the
0:03:17 > 0:03:21and fear because the Chicago Mafia ran the city and as long as you
0:03:21 > 0:03:26respected that. I saw up close tyranny in a way.Let's remember
0:03:26 > 0:03:29we're recording this interview at the very time of the 50th
0:03:29 > 0:03:35anniversary of one of the darkest incidents in the history of the US
0:03:35 > 0:03:40military and US war fighting, that is the massacre of more than 500
0:03:40 > 0:03:46civilians in My Lai. That was in March of 1968. We might never know
0:03:46 > 0:03:50the extent of what happened, the truth of what happened, if it hadn't
0:03:50 > 0:03:54been for your reporting. How did you dig deep into that story? What
0:03:54 > 0:03:58brought it to you? I ended up working for the
0:03:58 > 0:04:02associated press in Chicago and then I ended up in Washington for them
0:04:02 > 0:04:05covering the Pentagon. I like military people, and I like people
0:04:05 > 0:04:09in the intelligence community, as critical as I can be, because
0:04:09 > 0:04:14there's a lot of very good ones. At that time I was very aggressive and
0:04:14 > 0:04:18energetic and I wouldn't just take briefings, I ran around and talk to
0:04:18 > 0:04:23people. I think one should. I don't want a briefing, I want to know for
0:04:23 > 0:04:27myself what's going on. I began to get into the cynicism of the officer
0:04:27 > 0:04:33corps about the war and I began to meet officers. America... Like your
0:04:33 > 0:04:36country, we're a very open society, and before long there telling me,
0:04:36 > 0:04:43it's a bloodbath. So I knew there was trouble and so when I got a
0:04:43 > 0:04:47tip... Somebody called up one day and said to me, Hersh, maybe you
0:04:47 > 0:04:51will chase it, there's a terrible story, so I tried to run it down, it
0:04:51 > 0:04:55took a little while, then surely I learned the name Kelly from and
0:04:55 > 0:04:59offers a.That's important because this gentleman, William Cowley, who
0:04:59 > 0:05:05was a lieutenant I think leading a platoon, the company, Charlie
0:05:05 > 0:05:08company, this particular offensive operation which ended up in the
0:05:08 > 0:05:13village off to, he was at the centre of your story. -- of My Lai. You
0:05:13 > 0:05:17found him when he was back in the United States in 1969 after this
0:05:17 > 0:05:22terrible event. How did you find him?You know, I wasn't told his
0:05:22 > 0:05:26name, I was told something bad had happened and I'd gone nowhere,
0:05:26 > 0:05:31looked and looked. The military... I was in the Army, I understood in the
0:05:31 > 0:05:36army you can't hide anybody. It's a big combine, big machine, one day
0:05:36 > 0:05:40I'm walking and I see a young officer I hadn't seen before, he's a
0:05:40 > 0:05:45kernel, and he was limping. I'm just chasing a story, it was a month of
0:05:45 > 0:05:48not finding anything, I was doing other things, I had a book contract
0:05:48 > 0:05:53and I bumped into him and he just came back and he was limping and I
0:05:53 > 0:05:57knew him well because he was a very good guy when I was at the Pentagon,
0:05:57 > 0:06:01this was two years later, he said, what the hell are you doing here? He
0:06:01 > 0:06:05said I just got shot in Vietnam. He said, I just made general. I said,
0:06:05 > 0:06:10my God, you took a bullet to make general? I said, what are you doing
0:06:10 > 0:06:16now? I said I'm working for the chief of the army, a general Wes
0:06:16 > 0:06:21Morgan. I said wow. I said tell me about this massacre. This very nice
0:06:21 > 0:06:26guy, I'm thinking just telling me something incidental, then he
0:06:26 > 0:06:33started hitting his badly, this general, he just shot everybody,
0:06:33 > 0:06:37there's no story there. It's the perfect mesh, here's an officer
0:06:37 > 0:06:41being responsible and here's me saying oh my God, he has just
0:06:41 > 0:06:44dropped a dime on me and of course I'm playing cool, I don't want
0:06:44 > 0:06:49anybody to know. From their once I had the name I found out there was a
0:06:49 > 0:06:53Calley that had been in the Army, I found a lawyer, flew out to see the
0:06:53 > 0:06:58lawyer, he was a Mormon insult like city, Calley's lawyer.The point we
0:06:58 > 0:07:04need to get to is your confrontation with Calley. You found him, he was
0:07:04 > 0:07:08still in Fort Benning, Georgia, presumably still wearing his
0:07:08 > 0:07:12military uniform and you went down their?I didn't know where to go, I
0:07:12 > 0:07:17knew he had come into Fort Benning. We don't have so much time so I want
0:07:17 > 0:07:21to cut to the chase if I may. I want to know, when you finally locate
0:07:21 > 0:07:27him, you agree to meet him, he agrees to see you, he knows you're a
0:07:27 > 0:07:32journalist, what was that moment like when you met a guy who you knew
0:07:32 > 0:07:39by then was intimately involved in the massacre of hundreds of
0:07:39 > 0:07:44Vietnamese women and children as well as men?Of course I wanted to
0:07:44 > 0:07:49hate him because I thought he spoiled not only what he had done to
0:07:49 > 0:07:53the Vietnamese but also to America, I thought he had done something
0:07:53 > 0:07:57heinous and he turned out to be this very slight, nervous, frightened, he
0:07:57 > 0:08:01said to me quickly and casually, your lawyers told me you were going
0:08:01 > 0:08:07to find me, I look for him for 15 hours. I went to where he was
0:08:07 > 0:08:11living, he gave me a beer, he had translucent skin, you could see his
0:08:11 > 0:08:16veins, he talked about it as if it had been a big battle. It was just a
0:08:16 > 0:08:20massacre and I knew that already but at one point he went to the John
0:08:20 > 0:08:25Connor he said I had to go to the John, the door was ajar and I could
0:08:25 > 0:08:29see he threw up bacterial blood, which meant he had an ulcer. I knew
0:08:29 > 0:08:37this guy was dying. Eventually he didn't want me to go away, he kept
0:08:37 > 0:08:41me there for half a night, I didn't get to him until about 11pm and 6am
0:08:41 > 0:08:45I'm still there. We had dinner, he picked up a nurse he knew, he tried
0:08:45 > 0:08:49to be normal and he ended up telling so many different stories it was
0:08:49 > 0:08:52complicated as hell, he really screwed himself with me.Was he
0:08:52 > 0:08:56telling anything like the truth? We now know the next to the eyewitness
0:08:56 > 0:08:59testimony of those few people who survived the macro to massacre, we
0:08:59 > 0:09:03know 100 people were rounded up and put in a drainage ditch and they
0:09:03 > 0:09:08were shot down, including impotence, including women and their children.
0:09:08 > 0:09:12We know one child escape to the training pitch, he hadn't been
0:09:12 > 0:09:16killed under one of the bodies, he escaped and then as I understand it
0:09:16 > 0:09:20Calley ordered one of his men to get that child, bring him back and then
0:09:20 > 0:09:27shoot him down. Did Calley confessed?He told different
0:09:27 > 0:09:31stories. Initially he said it was just a battle and later he said, I
0:09:31 > 0:09:37had orders. The answer is he did not confess, he did not say it was
0:09:37 > 0:09:40murder, he said there may have been a lot of unfortunate deaths in
0:09:40 > 0:09:44between, there was a firefight and people were there. He told a
0:09:44 > 0:09:48complicated story that didn't make sense.I want you to watch with me a
0:09:48 > 0:09:52piece of tape, a HARDtalk interview from 2004, and extraordinary
0:09:52 > 0:09:58interview done with Hugh Johnson. He was an Army pilot.I know about him.
0:09:58 > 0:10:07He was in a helicopter, he came down over My Lai, he put it in front of
0:10:07 > 0:10:12US troops trying to get to a makeshift bunker where a dozen
0:10:12 > 0:10:14Vietnamese villagers were sheltering, trying to escape from
0:10:14 > 0:10:19the violence, and he said to those US troops, he said, if you try and
0:10:19 > 0:10:23attract these villagers I'm going to get my gun is to fire at you. Now
0:10:23 > 0:10:29that was heroism. Let's just look at his recollection of My Lai, because
0:10:29 > 0:10:34you've talked about it, let's see a man on the grounds remember it.
0:10:34 > 0:10:39They were lined up, marched down to a ditch, some of them, 170 of them,
0:10:39 > 0:10:47hands above ahead, and executed. That's not war, that's not what a
0:10:47 > 0:10:53soldier from any country does. That's murder. These were not
0:10:53 > 0:11:01soldiers. These were hoodlums. These were terrorists. Disguised like
0:11:01 > 0:11:12soldiers. No soldier is taught to do that. I knew the pain and suffering
0:11:12 > 0:11:17inflicted for no reason, no reason whatsoever, there was no threat.
0:11:17 > 0:11:22It's amazing looking at that even now, he says these men, the US
0:11:22 > 0:11:26soldiers, were not soldiers, they were hoodlums and terrorists. Hugh
0:11:26 > 0:11:31Johnson, think it's fair to say, was never really the same man again. He
0:11:31 > 0:11:38took to drink, he died early, and he died in some ways a broken man. You
0:11:38 > 0:11:42were not in My Lai at the time but you wrote about it and you thought
0:11:42 > 0:11:47about it and it's been a shadow in your life ever since. Has it
0:11:47 > 0:11:53affected you?Oh my god, I would cry. There are things I didn't write
0:11:53 > 0:11:57about, digging live babies, throwing them up and catching them with
0:11:57 > 0:12:02bayonets. The raping that went on. I had a two-year-old child. I get
0:12:02 > 0:12:07teary now. You cry thinking about it. I would call home. I don't know
0:12:07 > 0:12:11whether I was crying for myself, for my country all those kids. I ended
0:12:11 > 0:12:16up writing a couple of books about it and I ended up by saying those
0:12:16 > 0:12:21that did the killing were the victims in a way as much as those
0:12:21 > 0:12:25they killed, there was a sense they had no idea they had been allowed to
0:12:25 > 0:12:29become animals by the lack of leadership. There was a complete
0:12:29 > 0:12:32breakdown in leadership across-the-board. Thompson suffered
0:12:32 > 0:12:36immediately, by the way. He went back that day, you have no idea how
0:12:36 > 0:12:40it strawberry it is to land a chopper. It's a chopper with two
0:12:40 > 0:12:46machine-guns -- extraordinary. Larry Coleman was there as well and I got
0:12:46 > 0:12:51to know him very well. The kids at My Lai, I saw them a year later,
0:12:51 > 0:12:56they were all working night jobs with no people around.The US
0:12:56 > 0:12:59soldiers who came back were broken men?Those who killed and those who
0:12:59 > 0:13:03didn't kill, those who did kill didn't tell because they were afraid
0:13:03 > 0:13:09of getting Ebola too -- didn't kill. Thompson came back and by the
0:13:09 > 0:13:13afternoon every officer was on their ask. Don't report this, we will give
0:13:13 > 0:13:17you a break, we won't court-martial you for this. He was doing the right
0:13:17 > 0:13:21thing in the wrong place at the wrong time I guessed. I don't think
0:13:21 > 0:13:25he did, I think he did the right thing in the right place but they
0:13:25 > 0:13:29went nuts trying to stop him from carrying on.You are a reporter now
0:13:29 > 0:13:34in your 81st year, think I'm right in saying, and you've seen a lot of
0:13:34 > 0:13:37warfare, you've seen a lot of conflict, you've studied what
0:13:37 > 0:13:41happens to men in the most stressful, the most violent
0:13:41 > 0:13:46situations and you, for example, leaving aside Vietnam, are famed for
0:13:46 > 0:13:50your reporting of what the Americans did in Iraq after the invasion,
0:13:50 > 0:13:55including the torture and abuses in Abu Ghraib. What are your
0:13:55 > 0:13:59conclusions about what can happen to soldiers in the most extreme
0:13:59 > 0:14:02circumstances, even American soldiers, who are supposed to be
0:14:02 > 0:14:06upholding the values of freedom and democracy and everything else, what
0:14:06 > 0:14:10happens when they are in these situations?
0:14:10 > 0:14:18It depends on leadership. If you are a young captain and you have 100
0:14:18 > 0:14:22boys under your command, you are a local practice. When the system
0:14:22 > 0:14:27fails from the top on, that is what happened. It was a option from the
0:14:27 > 0:14:32top down. There was a famous line of the general at the time saying that
0:14:32 > 0:14:37the Vietnamese don't mind dying like we do, it is not as much of a for
0:14:37 > 0:14:41them. The action is that in a famous documentary. -- he actually said
0:14:41 > 0:14:48that. It is a little scary to think about how awful it can be in the
0:14:48 > 0:14:51military, not just American, you guys had a problem too.Do you
0:14:51 > 0:14:58believe in evil? That is partly what I am thinking.You know, I don't
0:14:58 > 0:15:02think it matters what I believe in or what I think, it matters what I
0:15:02 > 0:15:09do in a sense. I think there is evil. That is a terrible question, I
0:15:09 > 0:15:14don't want to answer it in a terrible, funny way because I see
0:15:14 > 0:15:19how quickly you can get to evil and I grok the world where we thought
0:15:19 > 0:15:24the Germans and Japanese, World War Two, were the evil. To find out that
0:15:24 > 0:15:31we don't fight wars any was very traumatic.I am wondering if you
0:15:31 > 0:15:37feel, from your reporting from Vietnam, including My Lai, and the
0:15:37 > 0:15:41Iraqi invasion and its aftermath, do you believe your journalism has made
0:15:41 > 0:15:49a difference?Sure. Absolutely. I am not walking around as if I am out
0:15:49 > 0:15:52Olympus brushing so from my mental because I am working hard, of course
0:15:52 > 0:15:58it did, I am aware of that. Also, there are things it didn't do. It
0:15:58 > 0:16:02didn't end Vietnam's war, it doesn't end of the brutality in combat.
0:16:02 > 0:16:05Could argue lessons learned in Vietnam's were quickly forgotten,
0:16:05 > 0:16:09one reason why the United dates found itself invading Iraqi and the
0:16:09 > 0:16:162000th. You could argue that things like the surveillance of the
0:16:16 > 0:16:20intelligence agencies in the 1970s, that didn't teach America very
0:16:20 > 0:16:26month, much because what, look what happened in the last decade with
0:16:26 > 0:16:30Edward Snowden. You could say that actually, the work you have done
0:16:30 > 0:16:35over 50 years hasn't really made any difference at all.You can certainly
0:16:35 > 0:16:41say this, that the notion of American general presidents learning
0:16:41 > 0:16:47from history, come on, give me a break. I don't understand why every
0:16:47 > 0:16:50General that gets to be the chairman of the joint chiefs doesn't remember
0:16:50 > 0:16:58how bad war can be. You can say that but I would punch you if you did and
0:16:58 > 0:17:01meant it, of course it made a difference and of course journalism
0:17:01 > 0:17:08is very port and -- important.It is very important that journalists it
0:17:08 > 0:17:12right and you think your credibility was fundamentally undermined by the
0:17:12 > 0:17:16time she got things wrong? I could list a few of them. Believing in the
0:17:16 > 0:17:20papers that reported to show that Marilyn Monroe was blackmailing JFK,
0:17:20 > 0:17:24it wasn't true but he believed those papers were real. You accuse the US
0:17:24 > 0:17:31ambassador in Chile without knowing about a CIA plot to topple the
0:17:31 > 0:17:35leader. That was untrue and you had to apologise for it. Obama would say
0:17:35 > 0:17:41that you completely misconstrued the killing of some of them live in --
0:17:41 > 0:17:44Osama bin Leyden, his White House saying that you wrote a nonsense
0:17:44 > 0:17:50about that. Your critical -- your credibility is an issue too.It is
0:17:50 > 0:17:56funny you say that. I believed the papers. I am held to a very high
0:17:56 > 0:18:00standard.And you have let yourself down sometimes.In that case I would
0:18:00 > 0:18:06say to you that the job of a investigative reporter is always to
0:18:06 > 0:18:12be open-minded. I believed in them and found out they were fake copy,,
0:18:12 > 0:18:16Italy six or seven months but I believe in them. I chased and worked
0:18:16 > 0:18:19hard but they weren't good. They never showed up anywhere.You are
0:18:19 > 0:18:23honest about that, why haven't you been honest, for example, about this
0:18:23 > 0:18:28story to put in the London review of books about the assassination of
0:18:28 > 0:18:34Osama bin Leyden. All sorts of evil in the military said that Seymuor
0:18:34 > 0:18:43Hersch got that plain wrong. -- Bin Laden.They are wrong. I am not
0:18:43 > 0:18:46afraid to go one-on-one with the President. Today we have a problem
0:18:46 > 0:18:50because we have the study for our new cycle where the White House can
0:18:50 > 0:18:55dominate.You think there is a crisis in journalism today?
0:18:55 > 0:19:00Absolutely. There is fake news everywhere.Fake news is a term
0:19:00 > 0:19:05people used to disrespect news they don't like.Now you have the New
0:19:05 > 0:19:09York Times and the Washington Post, excellent newspapers, who had it
0:19:09 > 0:19:13wrong on the election and both had to write letters of apology just as
0:19:13 > 0:19:17they did about the Iraqis on the weapons of mass destruction to back.
0:19:17 > 0:19:22They had to write an apology to its readers and we led you to think she
0:19:22 > 0:19:26was going to win the whole time and we had a wrong. We also had
0:19:26 > 0:19:28information that they suppressed about the polling and didn't
0:19:28 > 0:19:35acknowledge all of that.In a way, you are intriguing because you have
0:19:35 > 0:19:38seen through much of your life to conclude that all President like,
0:19:38 > 0:19:44all deceived, and here we have a president, Donald Trump, accused by
0:19:44 > 0:19:48many in the so-called mainstream media of telling more lies, more
0:19:48 > 0:19:53consistently than any president we have known in history and yet you
0:19:53 > 0:19:59seen to be saying that Obama was a wire, Clinton was a liar, Bush
0:19:59 > 0:20:03senior was a liar. You see anything different today and particular in
0:20:03 > 0:20:10relation to this president and the media?I think there is, look on it
0:20:10 > 0:20:14would have been better for an awful lot of people in America if Trump
0:20:14 > 0:20:20had not been elected.What I am getting at is that under the Trump
0:20:20 > 0:20:24administration, with Donald Trump's particulate take on the media, do
0:20:24 > 0:20:29you think the relationship between power, particularly in Washington,
0:20:29 > 0:20:34and the media is more toxic now than it has ever been?Yes, of course. Is
0:20:34 > 0:20:40not a question, it is a fact. Is terribly toxic. I also think, in a
0:20:40 > 0:20:46funny way, he is a circuit Reiko. He is completely different. -- circuit
0:20:46 > 0:20:50breaker. That does not mean he is a junkyard dog and doesn't read or
0:20:50 > 0:20:54know anything. He is a circuit breaker and it is sort of
0:20:54 > 0:20:58interesting. I didn't vote to him, it doesn't matter who I voted for, I
0:20:58 > 0:21:02wouldn't in a million years but now that we have him as president and I
0:21:02 > 0:21:08think the hostility towards him verges on INSAT 30 -- insanity in
0:21:08 > 0:21:11the major newspapers, they are unable to look at anything in an
0:21:11 > 0:21:18objective way. We have Fox News who looks at the press putting it
0:21:18 > 0:21:21mildly, and we have the New York Times and Washington Post I think
0:21:21 > 0:21:26going way over, there is nothing he can do make anybody happy.It seems
0:21:26 > 0:21:31like various media outlets in the United dates they take sides. It is
0:21:31 > 0:21:36all partisan and is all opinion and polemic rather than fact -based,
0:21:36 > 0:21:42evidence -based. You still believe, in truth, in an objective truth in
0:21:42 > 0:21:50journalism? -- do you.I had a job, one of my editors and the Times
0:21:50 > 0:21:57asked me to come right about Bingham in eight 1972. -- Vietnam's. I sat,
0:21:57 > 0:22:01writing the story and he would walk into the newsroom behind me and give
0:22:01 > 0:22:07me a rub, like the Bill Murray Robert. And he would say how is my
0:22:07 > 0:22:11little commie today and he would say what you have in the? It was very
0:22:11 > 0:22:17conservative. -- he was. Forget the politics, I don't check my dentist
0:22:17 > 0:22:22to check whether he is conservative or not I want a good dentist. He
0:22:22 > 0:22:27knew that even though I was an open democrat I was not going to write a
0:22:27 > 0:22:31story to the best of my ability that wasn't true and he could always ask
0:22:31 > 0:22:36me and I would always tell him the sources. That is one of the things,
0:22:36 > 0:22:40even at the London review, the same checking went on at the New Yorker.
0:22:40 > 0:22:45The editors know for whom I write and so I say when the London review
0:22:45 > 0:22:48is write a 10,000 word story going against everything that has been set
0:22:48 > 0:22:52from the White House about the killing of Osama bin London. --
0:22:52 > 0:22:58said. -- Bin Laden. They have checked that as hard as any other
0:22:58 > 0:23:01story in the world.You still believe in fact checking. Yes or no
0:23:01 > 0:23:05because I want to finish. If you were setting out today, given the
0:23:05 > 0:23:08climate we have described in journalism today, would you still
0:23:08 > 0:23:14want to be a journalist in this 20 47 digital, fake news era that we
0:23:14 > 0:23:20live in today? -- 40 47. -- 20 47.
0:23:20 > 0:23:23-- 2/47.
0:23:23 > 0:23:29I would want to be an editor. Some people at the BBC are having a lot
0:23:29 > 0:23:33of fun and are working hard. I would want to push myself to be an editor
0:23:33 > 0:23:39so I could change things as it is all. It is not good. It is just not
0:23:39 > 0:23:44good, it is toxic, as you say. I hadn't thought of that word. It is
0:23:44 > 0:23:49toxic. We have to let the guy, let my president see the fellow wacko in
0:23:49 > 0:23:53North Korea, who knows? You just don't know. The hostility against
0:23:53 > 0:23:59everything he says is all a little over the top. I don't like him, I
0:23:59 > 0:24:04don't want him as president, but so what? I wish the press to get out a
0:24:04 > 0:24:08little more.We have to end it there. Seymour Hersch, thank you for
0:24:08 > 0:24:12being on HARDtalk.Thank you.