0:00:01 > 0:00:04Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:11 > 0:00:20Welcome to HARDtalk. On Stephen Sackur. We will be presented with
0:00:20 > 0:00:26foreign policy choices that could define, from's presidency. A meeting
0:00:26 > 0:00:30with Kim Jong-un is looming, so to a decision on whether to dump the
0:00:30 > 0:00:36nuclear deal with Iran. Never far from the surface, how to handle
0:00:36 > 0:00:43relations with Vladimir Putin's Russia. My guest is one-time US
0:00:43 > 0:00:48North Korea emissary Bill Richardson. What is trump's brand of
0:00:48 > 0:00:51disruption doing to US foreign policy?
0:01:17 > 0:01:25Bill Richardson, welcome to HARDtalk. Thank you, nice to be with
0:01:25 > 0:01:33you. I want to tap into your wide experience in Washington, inside and
0:01:33 > 0:01:37Administration and as a congressman and a former UN ambassador for the
0:01:37 > 0:01:41United States. When you look at foreign policy-making in America
0:01:41 > 0:01:48today, how are the big strategic decisions being made?Well,
0:01:48 > 0:01:52unfortunately, I think they are being made on the flight, on the
0:01:52 > 0:01:57spur of the moment by the President, by tweets, and I don't like the
0:01:57 > 0:02:04disarray. I am a traditionalist. I think diplomacy is a very important
0:02:04 > 0:02:09statecraft and I worry that we don't have a national security team in
0:02:09 > 0:02:12place that the President, while making a right decision to meet with
0:02:12 > 0:02:21Kim Jong-un, might not be prepared, that he is listening to his
0:02:21 > 0:02:24political instance as opposed to what is in the best foreign policy
0:02:24 > 0:02:29of the United States. I am very unsettled, yet, at the same time, on
0:02:29 > 0:02:33this North Korea issue, I think the right approach was a face-to-face
0:02:33 > 0:02:38meeting, but I wonder if we will be prepared.I am intrigued that you
0:02:38 > 0:02:44actually approve of the notion that too many people, shocking notion of
0:02:44 > 0:02:49a trump Kim Jong-un summer. Before we get there, tell me in your
0:02:49 > 0:02:53experience, what does it say that Rex Tillerson for example only
0:02:53 > 0:02:59learnt of that summit, we understand, by reading it on
0:02:59 > 0:03:03Twitter, he only learned of his own dismissal by reading about it on
0:03:03 > 0:03:07Twitter. What does that say about the way the President operates?
0:03:07 > 0:03:13Well, it says that it is an undisciplined approach. It says that
0:03:13 > 0:03:16the sleek, Tillotson and the President did not have personal
0:03:16 > 0:03:21chemistry. I think Tillotson was more moderate, he wanted to stay in
0:03:21 > 0:03:25the Iran nuclear deal, he wanted diplomacy with North Korea a lot
0:03:25 > 0:03:29earlier, he wanted to be tougher on Russia, and they just didn't mesh.
0:03:29 > 0:03:33The chemistry wasn't there. It's very important for a president and
0:03:33 > 0:03:38his chief foreign policy adviser to basically have confidence in each
0:03:38 > 0:03:43other. That didn't happen. But I just think the unceremonious way
0:03:43 > 0:03:47that Tillotson was dumped, the in ceremony is way decisions are made
0:03:47 > 0:03:52on personnel, White House staff, there are reports that the National
0:03:52 > 0:03:59Security adviser may be next. I know him, he is a capable man and I worry
0:03:59 > 0:04:03that the President just wants to have around him individuals that
0:04:03 > 0:04:08will not disagree with him, that will just reinforce his views, which
0:04:08 > 0:04:14in many cases, I believe are not internationalist views, not the best
0:04:14 > 0:04:17in the interest of the United States.We are going to talk plenty
0:04:17 > 0:04:21about North Korea. I want to start the substance with Russia, partly
0:04:21 > 0:04:27because it is a huge issue in the UK, as a result of the nerve agent
0:04:27 > 0:04:35attack on a former Soviet agent, Sir J Scrip in a town in the UK along
0:04:35 > 0:04:40with his daughter. -- Sergei Skripal. It has accused -- was used
0:04:40 > 0:04:46tension. Going back to Tillotson and his firing, he chose, after his
0:04:46 > 0:04:51firing, to brew pointedly made these remarks about Russia. He said, much
0:04:51 > 0:04:54work remains to respond to the troubling behaviour and actions of
0:04:54 > 0:04:57the Russian government, and he warned that Russia could face yet
0:04:57 > 0:05:05greater isolation. Do you think that Tillotson was pushing Donald Trump
0:05:05 > 0:05:09to confront Britain in a way that Donald Trump simply doesn't want to
0:05:09 > 0:05:16do?Yes, I do think he was trying to push the President in the right
0:05:16 > 0:05:21direction, which was to stand with you guys, you are our main ally, and
0:05:21 > 0:05:26the evidence is overwhelming, that this nerve agent was deposited by
0:05:26 > 0:05:34the Russians. You have concrete proof. And we stand behind you. Yes,
0:05:34 > 0:05:38the press secretary should, the Secretary of State should, but I
0:05:38 > 0:05:43haven't heard the President himself say, we stand with Great Britain,
0:05:43 > 0:05:47with the Prime Minister, with the enormous evidence, and Russia should
0:05:47 > 0:05:53stop. They have interfered in our election, there has been substantial
0:05:53 > 0:05:59demonstrations of that involvement, certified by our intelligence
0:05:59 > 0:06:03agencies, so Russia, you should stop doing this. You should stop doing
0:06:03 > 0:06:07this to our allies, to the United States, stop getting involved in
0:06:07 > 0:06:10elections throughout the world, which they are doing. I didn't hear
0:06:10 > 0:06:15that from the President. So I think Tillerson was nudging him and
0:06:15 > 0:06:19obviously we still haven't heard it. I want to see the President. I want
0:06:19 > 0:06:24to see him succeed. I want him to stand behind our allies like you
0:06:24 > 0:06:28guys, that are facing this real dilemma in your foreign policy with
0:06:28 > 0:06:32an important state actor.Several points come out of what you've just
0:06:32 > 0:06:36said. It should be said newly re-elected Vladimir Putin described
0:06:36 > 0:06:43allegations that the Russian state was behind the attack on Sergei
0:06:43 > 0:06:47Skripal of nonsense. We need to put that on the record. Also, are you
0:06:47 > 0:06:52being fair to Donald Trump? He did ultimately come out and issue a
0:06:52 > 0:06:57joint statement alongside the UK, Germany and France, condemning the
0:06:57 > 0:07:03outrageous attack in the UK. Just last week, the US expanded its
0:07:03 > 0:07:06sanctions against targeted individuals in Russia. When you
0:07:06 > 0:07:10compare trump with Obama, is trump doing so much less on Russia than
0:07:10 > 0:07:18Obama did? Well, in my view, he's not doing enough. Yes, he made that
0:07:18 > 0:07:23joint statement. But I want to hear him also with our election. It is
0:07:23 > 0:07:29very strong evidence by our intelligence agency of enormous
0:07:29 > 0:07:33involvement in the election. Maybe he didn't decide the US presidential
0:07:33 > 0:07:37election. I have yet to hear the President in very strong terms
0:07:37 > 0:07:42condemn what Russia did. The President himself. And, yes, all
0:07:42 > 0:07:46right, we are making joint statements, but I want to see that
0:07:46 > 0:07:52outrage because Vladimir Putin was re-elected, some say with 107% of
0:07:52 > 0:07:59the vote. I saw that. Maybe he will now recognise that he has got to be
0:07:59 > 0:08:04a world leader again, that it's responsible in the next six years.
0:08:04 > 0:08:10But their continued interference in family activities around the world
0:08:10 > 0:08:14and elections, it is incomprehensible. Yes, Russia wants
0:08:14 > 0:08:19to get restored as a major power again, but not at the expense of
0:08:19 > 0:08:25human rights and people and possible nerve agent killings and Syria,
0:08:25 > 0:08:29conspiring with Assad. Maybe now, Putin will change. I doubt it, but
0:08:29 > 0:08:33that is my hope. Don't you think Democrats need to be careful right
0:08:33 > 0:08:37now? The way they are pushing the notion that Donald Trump stands not
0:08:37 > 0:08:41just accused, but in many democratic rights, guilty of collusion with the
0:08:41 > 0:08:47Russians over the last potential of election, -- presidential election,
0:08:47 > 0:08:51isn't that hamstring in the US administration's ability to really
0:08:51 > 0:08:58direct a coherent Russia policy right now?Well, what is important
0:08:58 > 0:09:07here is this muller investigation needs to keep its course. Let him
0:09:07 > 0:09:12come up with whatever the facts are. Two, I think it is important that
0:09:12 > 0:09:19we, as Democrats, not just attack the President. Let's find the facts,
0:09:19 > 0:09:24but at the same time, let's, with a message that eluded us in the last
0:09:24 > 0:09:28election. And I think elections in the United States are moving our
0:09:28 > 0:09:32way, in Pennsylvania, we won an election in a district that
0:09:32 > 0:09:38President Trump won by 20%. We won that. So the public is turning
0:09:38 > 0:09:43towards a Democrat slowly, but we have to just be positive about our
0:09:43 > 0:09:48vision. We need an economic message. People want to make more money, they
0:09:48 > 0:09:53want higher wages, they want the working class to do better. I think
0:09:53 > 0:09:59that escaped us. But I think on this Russia issue, I don't think the
0:09:59 > 0:10:02Democrats are wholesale saying there was collusion. I think there is
0:10:02 > 0:10:07enormous suspicion about it, this is why this investigation, Mr Muller
0:10:07 > 0:10:12needs to be concluded. The present needs to stop attacking that
0:10:12 > 0:10:15investigation.After some extremely strong condemnation by tweet from
0:10:15 > 0:10:21Donald Trump about investigation over the weekend, there are any
0:10:21 > 0:10:25speculation that the President might even fire Robert Muller. If he did,
0:10:25 > 0:10:30what would that produce in Washington?One senator said it
0:10:30 > 0:10:34would start the end of his presidency. I don't know. I think it
0:10:34 > 0:10:41is up to the Republicans who, I would hope, looking at our past
0:10:41 > 0:10:45history, Watergate, would say this is untenable. This shouldn't happen.
0:10:45 > 0:10:51And that this would read contested enormously. Democrats would, but
0:10:51 > 0:10:55remember, Republicans have a majority in the house and Senate.
0:10:55 > 0:11:00Also, the American people I think would find this enormously troubling
0:11:00 > 0:11:04and it would be demonstrations in the streets like you've never seen
0:11:04 > 0:11:08if this happens. I'm not sure it's going to happen. I don't know what
0:11:08 > 0:11:12the President is going to do, but is of the earthly in a very contested
0:11:12 > 0:11:18fight with Robert Muller, not just publicly, but I hope he is not
0:11:18 > 0:11:22plotting to terminate him. I think that would be a huge mistake for
0:11:22 > 0:11:27him, a disaster.I tell you what is weird. We are talking about this and
0:11:27 > 0:11:31it will unfold. At the very same time coming back to foreign affairs,
0:11:31 > 0:11:36the very same time that Donald Trump is going to make to make key
0:11:36 > 0:11:40decisions. Let's get to North Korea, you are one of the very few
0:11:40 > 0:11:44Americans who knows what it is like to negotiate with North Korean
0:11:44 > 0:11:49officials in Pyongyang. It intrigues me that you say you approve of
0:11:49 > 0:11:55Trump's decision to go one-on-one with Kim Jong-un. Why do you think,
0:11:55 > 0:12:00given Trump's character, that is a good idea?Well, I have been
0:12:00 > 0:12:05involved with this issue for many years. I have been there eight
0:12:05 > 0:12:08times, negotiating with the North Koreans. I have never seen the
0:12:08 > 0:12:13Korean peninsular so tense, so troubled, soap potential of the
0:12:13 > 0:12:24conflict, either missile. He threw a game changer, which hopefully will
0:12:24 > 0:12:29reduce tensions. My worry is that we are setting unrealistic expectation
0:12:29 > 0:12:33that we are going to expect North Korea to Dean regularised. They are
0:12:33 > 0:12:39not going to do that. That doesn't mean we don't have these talks to
0:12:39 > 0:12:43talk about freezing or slowing down the missiles or nuclear activities
0:12:43 > 0:12:47or conventional warfare are finding ways to defuse tension. So I commend
0:12:47 > 0:12:51him for the trip will stop what I worry is that we are not ready with
0:12:51 > 0:12:56a strategy.York position leaves me puzzled because we know that the
0:12:56 > 0:13:02North Koreans regarding meeting President to president as on the
0:13:02 > 0:13:05ultimate prizes for their diplomatic strategy, so why give them a rise
0:13:05 > 0:13:09when you say to me, look, we can't expect them to eliminate the nuclear
0:13:09 > 0:13:13weapons programme and they won't be nuclear right. In essence, you are
0:13:13 > 0:13:17saying we give them the prize and we get really nothing substantial in
0:13:17 > 0:13:26return.Well, we did get something in return. We got them to agree that
0:13:26 > 0:13:30we will continue our military activities with the South Koreans.
0:13:30 > 0:13:36They are not shooting any missiles or any kind of nuclear activity.
0:13:36 > 0:13:41They have made concessions to. I agree. Meeting President President
0:13:41 > 0:13:45is a major concession because it legitimises what Kim Jong-un has
0:13:45 > 0:13:50been doing, but at the same time, it shows a boldness by our president.
0:13:50 > 0:13:54My point is that the negotiations should not just be about
0:13:54 > 0:13:58denuclearisation. They should be about freezing missile activity.
0:13:58 > 0:14:03They should be about three Americans detained in North Korea. They should
0:14:03 > 0:14:07be about the remains of soldiers from the Korean War, about
0:14:07 > 0:14:11conventional weapons pointed out South Korea, about chemical weapons
0:14:11 > 0:14:17in North Korea sent into Syria, about missile exports and you clear
0:14:17 > 0:14:21exports that North Korea sent to Pakistan and other world states. So
0:14:21 > 0:14:26I think there is a lot more and denuclearisation, if it happens,
0:14:26 > 0:14:30should be a goal, but it has to be very long-range. It will take a long
0:14:30 > 0:14:36time.
0:14:36 > 0:14:41Here is a question that taps into the wave that your experience of
0:14:41 > 0:14:45government works. If they happen, we are expecting by the end of May,
0:14:45 > 0:14:49which side you think is better equipped to conduct the highly
0:14:49 > 0:14:53complex, detailed negotiations? Is a Trump administration which currently
0:14:53 > 0:14:58has no ambassador in South Korea, the Undersecretary of State
0:14:58 > 0:15:03responsible for arms control and has just lost the top State Department
0:15:03 > 0:15:07North Korea expert, or is that the North Koreans who had been thinking
0:15:07 > 0:15:11about little else but how to get into this place where they have
0:15:11 > 0:15:14talks with the US President on the other side? Which side is better
0:15:14 > 0:15:19equipped?Well, I think we are better equipped because we have
0:15:19 > 0:15:22Japan on our side, we have South Korea on our side, we have China
0:15:22 > 0:15:28most of the time on our side, but yeah, I do worry that we are not
0:15:28 > 0:15:31prepared in terms of our personnel, our strategy, but we do have 60
0:15:31 > 0:15:37days. Now I have negotiated with the North Koreans, they are disciplines,
0:15:37 > 0:15:42they do not think like us, they do not believe in quid pro quo, they
0:15:42 > 0:15:45believe in the cult of personality and everything they believe in,
0:15:45 > 0:15:49everything they say has to happen. So there are going to be so very
0:15:49 > 0:15:53tough negotiations but we do have time. What I worry about is this
0:15:53 > 0:15:59opening that you made about Iran, May 12 is the deadline that the
0:15:59 > 0:16:04President has to say whether we stay in the deal. I hope we do the
0:16:04 > 0:16:12because I think Iran has complied on the nuclear agreement. It has been
0:16:12 > 0:16:15terrible on terrorism, it has been terrible on getting involved with
0:16:15 > 0:16:22Syria and Yemen, but I do think that if we pull out of it May 12 and we
0:16:22 > 0:16:26are negotiating with the North Koreans, the North Koreans are going
0:16:26 > 0:16:29to say well, how can we negotiate with an American president is an
0:16:29 > 0:16:34ex-president might pull out of another nuclear deal? So I am very
0:16:34 > 0:16:39concerned about that too.Well, let's talk about that Iran decision
0:16:39 > 0:16:43because it seems to me again the Democrats had to face a difficult
0:16:43 > 0:16:47question here. The problem with the deal going back to 2015 was that
0:16:47 > 0:16:51Barack Obama, in pushing the deal, and it was a signature policy for
0:16:51 > 0:16:55him, he never got a truly national consensus around the deal. The
0:16:55 > 0:17:00Republicans in the Congress almost to a man and woman opposed it
0:17:00 > 0:17:05vehemently. All of the Republican candidate to run for president in
0:17:05 > 0:17:092016 said that they would trash the deal, so in many ways it is no
0:17:09 > 0:17:14surprise that Donald Trump, with a mandate, it has to be said, is
0:17:14 > 0:17:18following through on his promise to undo what he says is the worst deal
0:17:18 > 0:17:24in America's history.Well, I believe that it makes sense to
0:17:24 > 0:17:32preserve the nuclear deal, which is 15 years. Iran does not have a
0:17:32 > 0:17:39nuclear weapon, serious deterrents on their enriched uranium. Now, the
0:17:39 > 0:17:44possible compromise might be a missile deal that Europe, your
0:17:44 > 0:17:51country, European allies, push Iran that to limit or reduce that
0:17:51 > 0:17:57terrible activity that they do with their missiles.So... We did not
0:17:57 > 0:18:01take my points, Bill Richardson, did not take my point that Donald Trump
0:18:01 > 0:18:04does have a mandate for this particular element of his foreign
0:18:04 > 0:18:09policy?Well, it is not exactly a mandate. I think there were
0:18:09 > 0:18:13Republican supporters, Rex Tillerson wanting to keep it. Most of the
0:18:13 > 0:18:17American foreign policy establishment and Republican
0:18:17 > 0:18:23senators think it should be kept. -- wants him to keep it. You know, it
0:18:23 > 0:18:29is divided, there is no question and I wish that we had gotten more with
0:18:29 > 0:18:33Iran on their subversive activity, their terrorism support, what they
0:18:33 > 0:18:37are doing in Yemen and Syria, their threats on Israel. Look, it could
0:18:37 > 0:18:41have been maybe a better deal but still, Iran has been complying with
0:18:41 > 0:18:46the nucleoside and we do not want two nuclear act is, North Korea and
0:18:46 > 0:18:51Iran, on the world stage and that is my worries is a van Zyl is
0:18:51 > 0:18:56terminated.I understand that you are saying that you know better than
0:18:56 > 0:19:00I do that the deal, in terms of its long-term outcome, it allows Iran to
0:19:00 > 0:19:06begin again its nuclear enrichment programme a full-scale, but in the
0:19:06 > 0:19:10period between six and 13 years from now, so it is not a finite and to
0:19:10 > 0:19:15the large-scale uranium enrichment, and at the same time, the Iranians
0:19:15 > 0:19:20are allowed to continue missile testing. So the many people in the
0:19:20 > 0:19:24United States, and indeed the key allies like those in Israel, it
0:19:24 > 0:19:29looks like a deal that at best simply kicks the can down the road.
0:19:29 > 0:19:35Well, the problem, Stephen, is in the midst of a possible negotiation
0:19:35 > 0:19:39with North Korea, you have to admit that the North Koreans are going to
0:19:39 > 0:19:42say why should we make a deal with the United States is on one
0:19:42 > 0:19:46president to another they pulled the plug on this deal? The timing is
0:19:46 > 0:19:53very unfortunate, May 12. So... And there is no possibility of delaying
0:19:53 > 0:19:56that decision, as I am very concerned. I just think that the
0:19:56 > 0:20:01North Koreans, I know how they are. They think of every avenue, they are
0:20:01 > 0:20:05going to find a way to use this potential disruption of the Ah Van
0:20:05 > 0:20:10deal. And I am not a fan of Iran, I did not openly support President
0:20:10 > 0:20:19Obama's deal. -- Iran deal. I worry now, at the timing and this
0:20:19 > 0:20:24colossal, important decision to meet with Kim Jong-un, but these two
0:20:24 > 0:20:28decisions are going to hit each other and it is not going to be
0:20:28 > 0:20:31resolved in our interest, that is my worries the President terminates the
0:20:31 > 0:20:37deal.OK, I want to change tack a bit and ask you something is very
0:20:37 > 0:20:41personal to you. You are by Aung San Suu Kyi in the unmarked to be part
0:20:41 > 0:20:45of an advisory committee looking at what had happened to the Mahindra
0:20:45 > 0:20:49people and the exodus of so many of those people across the border into
0:20:49 > 0:20:55anger --. You agree to be part of the committee, then it seems you had
0:20:55 > 0:21:00a stand-up row with Aung San Suu Kyi herself about some of the activities
0:21:00 > 0:21:05of the Myanmar government and you quit your post. -- Rohingya people.
0:21:05 > 0:21:10How disappointed are you in Aung San Suu Kyi right now?Well, I am very
0:21:10 > 0:21:15disappointed in her. She has not fulfilled, I think, her commitment
0:21:15 > 0:21:21as a champion of human rights. I have supported her for 30 years as a
0:21:21 > 0:21:25public official with my foundation. I did everything, we had a good,
0:21:25 > 0:21:30strong relationship, and I'm disappointed she is not speaking out
0:21:30 > 0:21:35against own military on the human rights situation with the Rohingya,
0:21:35 > 0:21:44and this commission she set up, I found out that she did not want any
0:21:44 > 0:21:48frank advice. I wanted two journalist released, I said you
0:21:48 > 0:21:52should release them, this is important.We do not have much time,
0:21:52 > 0:21:56I want to be clear about one thing. Do you believe she has become an
0:21:56 > 0:22:02apologist for State ethnic cleansing?Well, I will not say an
0:22:02 > 0:22:05apologist. She has become an accomplice because she has become a
0:22:05 > 0:22:09politician that wants to stay in office, she does not want to upset
0:22:09 > 0:22:12the military that is extremely powerful in the unmarked, but she
0:22:12 > 0:22:18should because she is the head of state.Final thought, and this takes
0:22:18 > 0:22:25us away from foreign affairs to your country. The president, and fail, it
0:22:25 > 0:22:30has to be said, I do not know if you are interested in running again, but
0:22:30 > 0:22:34a lot of people are speculating about whether Democrats are going to
0:22:34 > 0:22:39find candidates capable of hitting Donald Trump in 2020. He is a man
0:22:39 > 0:22:46who liked him or loathe him dominate the political scene. Frankly, there
0:22:46 > 0:22:50does not seem to be anybody on the Democrat side. How and where the
0:22:50 > 0:22:54Democrats going to find someone to beat Donald Trump?Well, the good
0:22:54 > 0:23:01news is we have three years. The good news also is I believe that it
0:23:01 > 0:23:04is, Donald Trump is not doing well with voters. He is going to be
0:23:04 > 0:23:09fermentable but I think the Democratic Party realises it cannot
0:23:09 > 0:23:13just be a progressive, Liberal Party, that we have to talk about
0:23:13 > 0:23:22economic issues, like we did in Pennsylvania, we are moderate,
0:23:22 > 0:23:26conservative Democrat one, and we have been winning in a lot of
0:23:26 > 0:23:29elections recently. It is either going to be candidates like Joe
0:23:29 > 0:23:33Biden, or a new face, but the good news is we have three years and I
0:23:33 > 0:23:39believe that we will find a strong candidate and Count me out. I am
0:23:39 > 0:23:46done, but I think at the same time, we have a real opportunity to win
0:23:46 > 0:23:49short-term in these congressional elections, I think within the house
0:23:49 > 0:23:52of representatives, maybe not the Senate, and then we recapture the
0:23:52 > 0:23:57presidency. I believe that is what is going to happen but we will see.
0:23:57 > 0:24:01We will see indeed, but Will Richardson for now, thank you very
0:24:01 > 0:24:04much for being on HARDtalk.Thank you, Stephen.