0:00:01 > 0:00:05Now on BBC News, it's time for HARDtalk.
0:00:09 > 0:00:10Welcome to HARDtalk.
0:00:10 > 0:00:17I'm Stephen Sackur.
0:00:17 > 0:00:23More than 150 journalists are currently imprisoned in Turkey.
0:00:23 > 0:00:26President Erdogan government stands accused of an all-out assault on
0:00:26 > 0:00:32freedom of expression. My guest today is Can Dundar who as
0:00:32 > 0:00:38experienced imprisonment, life-threatening violence and ex-
0:00:38 > 0:00:42owl in the last couple of years, after publishing material which
0:00:42 > 0:00:48infuriated the Turkish president. In the battle for Turkish future and
0:00:48 > 0:00:52its soul, who is a winning?
0:01:13 > 0:01:14Can Dundar, welcome to HARDtalk.
0:01:14 > 0:01:16Thank you.
0:01:16 > 0:01:19You live in Germany, you would like to live in Turkey
0:01:19 > 0:01:21but it's not possible.
0:01:21 > 0:01:26Do you feel a sense of freedom in Germany that you could not enjoy
0:01:27 > 0:01:32in your last period inside Turkey?
0:01:32 > 0:01:38You can't really feel as a free man while your friends are in jail,
0:01:38 > 0:01:42your family is under, you know, away from you and,
0:01:42 > 0:01:51at the same time, you are threatened by a very despotic government.
0:01:51 > 0:01:54If you are seen as a threat by the government,
0:01:54 > 0:01:57you can't be free, feel free everywhere in the world,
0:01:57 > 0:01:59nowhere in the world.
0:01:59 > 0:02:01Do you have security right now?
0:02:01 > 0:02:05Of course, part of your story over the last couple of years is not just
0:02:05 > 0:02:09arrest and imprisonment but also there was an attempt on your life.
0:02:09 > 0:02:12Do you feel secure in Germany?
0:02:12 > 0:02:14Not really.
0:02:14 > 0:02:16Because Turkish intelligence is so active in Germany
0:02:17 > 0:02:19and there are a lot of pro-government people,
0:02:19 > 0:02:22pro-Erdogan people living in Germany,
0:02:22 > 0:02:25and that's why there is a huge campaign against me
0:02:26 > 0:02:32by the Turkish government, that's why it's a kind of...
0:02:32 > 0:02:35Um, it's not the safest place in the world, Germany...
0:02:35 > 0:02:36Do you have security?
0:02:36 > 0:02:39Yeah, I do have security.
0:02:39 > 0:02:42If I do something in public, they come and protect me.
0:02:42 > 0:02:45I suppose your story is very much about your relationship
0:02:45 > 0:02:50with President Erdogan, and the two of you have known
0:02:51 > 0:02:53of each other for an awful long time and, indeed,
0:02:53 > 0:02:57I am interested to go back in time to the early 2000s,
0:02:57 > 0:03:00when you wrote about Erdogan in a pretty favourable manner.
0:03:00 > 0:03:02You described yourself as "cautiously optimistic" about him.
0:03:02 > 0:03:06You said that "here is a man who stands up to the military".
0:03:06 > 0:03:10Do you think, in retrospect, that you totally misunderstood the man?
0:03:10 > 0:03:15I guess he was pretending like he was a democrat all those
0:03:15 > 0:03:18years and he had a plan from the beginning and he convinced
0:03:18 > 0:03:22many Turkish liberals, together with Western governments
0:03:22 > 0:03:30that he's a democrat and he's trying to get the Turkish army bac
0:03:30 > 0:03:33that he's a democrat and he's trying to get the Turkish army back
0:03:34 > 0:03:36to the barracks again, and we were also critical
0:03:36 > 0:03:38about the Turkish army being so involved in Turkish
0:03:38 > 0:03:41politics that's why someone who was promising to get the army
0:03:41 > 0:03:45back to the barracks was, you know, we should give him a chance
0:03:45 > 0:03:48but we knew that he was not a democrat because he said already
0:03:48 > 0:03:56during...as as a governor of Istanbul, back to 1996,
0:03:56 > 0:04:05he said democracy is not my main aim, it is just a tool to get me
0:04:05 > 0:04:17to the main aim.
0:04:17 > 0:04:20Let's get to the unfolding of events in more recent times.
0:04:20 > 0:04:23You knew that, as the century proceded, we got to 2010,
0:04:23 > 0:04:252012, that Erdogan was showing a much more authoritarian streak
0:04:25 > 0:04:26in his rule.
0:04:26 > 0:04:28But you took some rash decisions.
0:04:28 > 0:04:31I mean, for example, when you became editor in chief
0:04:31 > 0:04:35of Cumhuriyet, you must have known that breaking this story in 2015
0:04:35 > 0:04:37about the Turkish government smuggling arms over the border
0:04:37 > 0:04:44to rebels in Syria, you must have known that running that story
0:04:44 > 0:04:46would put an enormous strain, to say the least,
0:04:46 > 0:04:48on your relationship with the government?
0:04:48 > 0:04:50Of course, we knew it.
0:04:50 > 0:04:54In a way, we were expecting it.
0:04:54 > 0:04:57Because, as a journalist, of course, you must be realistic about this
0:04:57 > 0:05:02but what would you do?
0:05:02 > 0:05:05I mean, you have a story, which is true,
0:05:05 > 0:05:07your government is doing something illegal
0:05:07 > 0:05:18and hiding it and naming it as state secrets and you are a journalist,
0:05:18 > 0:05:19and you are a journalist,
0:05:19 > 0:05:20this is your duty...
0:05:20 > 0:05:23Well, it was a state secret, clearly it was a state secret,
0:05:23 > 0:05:27it it was a covert operation, nobody was supposed to do about it.
0:05:27 > 0:05:28That is the point of covert operations.
0:05:29 > 0:05:30It was Turkey's Iran gate.
0:05:30 > 0:05:31It was Turkey's Irangate.
0:05:31 > 0:05:35In a way, it was not a state secret it was the secret of Erdogan
0:05:35 > 0:05:39so he was trying to get involved in the Syrian war in an illegal way.
0:05:39 > 0:05:43Well, put yourself in the shoes of a journalist in a different country.
0:05:43 > 0:05:46I mean, frankly, if a British journalist had tried to dig deep
0:05:46 > 0:05:48into the affairs of military intelligence in the UK,
0:05:48 > 0:05:51or the same thing in the United States,
0:05:51 > 0:05:52they would have run into serious trouble.
0:05:53 > 0:05:55We have something called the Official Secrets Act.
0:05:55 > 0:05:56Have you seen the film The Post?
0:05:57 > 0:05:59I have seen the film The Post, which concerns Vietnam
0:05:59 > 0:06:01and the uncovering of the Pentagon papers.
0:06:01 > 0:06:03So they were right to publish the story.
0:06:03 > 0:06:06It's more or less the same story with us,
0:06:06 > 0:06:09with a very different ending, unfortunately.
0:06:09 > 0:06:12But, I mean, this is our duty to inform the public
0:06:12 > 0:06:14about this kind of danger.
0:06:14 > 0:06:18Well, yes, but presumably as a Turk you also have an obligation
0:06:18 > 0:06:20and a duty to consider things like putting
0:06:20 > 0:06:23Turkish military personnel or others at risk and you do know
0:06:23 > 0:06:27that the Turkish government insisted that what you had uncovered
0:06:27 > 0:06:30was not gunrunning to rebels but was actually the transfer of aid
0:06:30 > 0:06:33and assistance to Turkmen civilians.
0:06:33 > 0:06:36The Turkish government wanted to help the Turkmen civilian
0:06:36 > 0:06:37population inside Turkey.
0:06:37 > 0:06:38That is what Mr Erdogan said.
0:06:38 > 0:06:45That's what they said but the Turkmen denied this allegation.
0:06:45 > 0:06:49They said they did not get aid from this and we knew that Turkey
0:06:49 > 0:06:52had a very a close contact with the Islamic guerrillas in Syria
0:06:52 > 0:06:53and we were opposing it.
0:06:53 > 0:06:55So that's what it was important.
0:06:55 > 0:06:57But, again, to be fair to the Turkish government,
0:06:57 > 0:07:07you went through due process.
0:07:07 > 0:07:10Erdogan we know was furious with you.
0:07:10 > 0:07:12He described what you did as espionage and said,
0:07:12 > 0:07:14"those who wrote that will be punished"
0:07:14 > 0:07:16but he did not do it himself.
0:07:16 > 0:07:19He filed a complaint and the courts took it up
0:07:20 > 0:07:22and you were tried in a court of law.
0:07:22 > 0:07:24Exactly and, unfortunately, the courts are all controlled
0:07:24 > 0:07:25by himself...
0:07:25 > 0:07:31That's your opinion.
0:07:31 > 0:07:38Yeah, I mean, so when he ordered a kind of complaint,
0:07:38 > 0:07:42or defined me as a traitor or a spy, no judge can, you know,
0:07:42 > 0:07:47decide the other way.
0:07:47 > 0:07:53You spent 92 days in prison in the course of the legal process
0:07:53 > 0:07:55before the actual conviction.
0:07:55 > 0:07:58What were those 92 days like?
0:07:58 > 0:08:03I was in solitary confinement.
0:08:03 > 0:08:06In a way I was ready because if you are a journalist
0:08:06 > 0:08:09in Turkey, you must be ready for any kind of insults,
0:08:10 > 0:08:16imprisonment, harassment, even being killed
0:08:16 > 0:08:21so psychologically I felt ready.
0:08:22 > 0:08:27Immediately I start working, writing, and tried to give a voice
0:08:27 > 0:08:36to the words that something is going on in the country.
0:08:36 > 0:08:39to the world that something is going on in the country.
0:08:39 > 0:08:41See that's what strikes me about Turkey, it's complex
0:08:41 > 0:08:44to make sense of the nature of the authoritarianism
0:08:44 > 0:08:47that we talk about in Turkey because there you sit in prison,
0:08:47 > 0:08:50Erdogan has declared you an enemy of the State
0:08:50 > 0:08:53and yet you are free to write, you're free to express your opinion,
0:08:53 > 0:08:55you can get that opinion to the outside world.
0:08:56 > 0:08:58I mean, this isn't exactly North Korea, is it?
0:08:58 > 0:09:01With our government it was difficult, it was not easy to do it.
0:09:02 > 0:09:08You can do everything in Turkey but the price is high.
0:09:08 > 0:09:14You must be brave enough to do it.
0:09:14 > 0:09:18If you are ready to pay the price, you are free to do it.
0:09:18 > 0:09:21You are free to write, you are free to talk
0:09:21 > 0:09:24but the price is really high so you can spend your whole
0:09:24 > 0:09:25life in jail.
0:09:25 > 0:09:29Well, that is a very interesting way to put it the price is very high.
0:09:30 > 0:09:33In the end you chose to avoid paying some of that inevitable price by,
0:09:33 > 0:09:36when you were released on appeal, you fled.
0:09:36 > 0:09:43You were invited to Germany to receive a journalistic price
0:09:43 > 0:09:46You were invited to Germany to receive a journalistic prize
0:09:46 > 0:09:48and you decided not to go back.
0:09:48 > 0:09:51Partly true because after I was released I spent five months
0:09:51 > 0:09:55in Turkey, I got back to my job again, but it was summer time
0:09:55 > 0:09:57and I went on holiday to Spain, in fact,
0:09:57 > 0:10:00then this military coup attempt has happened in Turkey,
0:10:00 > 0:10:08then the rule of law was lifted.
0:10:09 > 0:10:11And my lawyers advised me to stay away from the country
0:10:12 > 0:10:17for a while and that's why I decided to stay in Germany.
0:10:17 > 0:10:19Was it partly out of fear because I referred earlier
0:10:20 > 0:10:21to an attempt on your life.
0:10:21 > 0:10:24A gunman approached you outside the court one day and,
0:10:24 > 0:10:26miraculously, you survived, even though he tried to shoot
0:10:26 > 0:10:28you at very close range.
0:10:28 > 0:10:31But was it fear that drove you out of Turkey in the end?
0:10:31 > 0:10:32Of course, otherwise...
0:10:32 > 0:10:35Being in jail doesn't matter, you can stay in jail
0:10:35 > 0:10:38for a while but if your life is in danger, of course,
0:10:38 > 0:10:41you should think twice.
0:10:41 > 0:10:44It wasn't the Turkish state though, was it?
0:10:44 > 0:10:49There has been a legal proceedings against the government
0:10:49 > 0:10:52There has been a legal proceedings against the gunman
0:10:52 > 0:10:55and there is no connection, it seems, between him and the state.
0:10:55 > 0:10:56He said...
0:10:56 > 0:10:59He said that he was inspired by the accusations of the statesman
0:10:59 > 0:11:02and he is free now, with his passport in his pocket.
0:11:02 > 0:11:05That clearly is a bitter thing for you to swallow.
0:11:05 > 0:11:08Of course, and my wife hasn't got a passport but he has.
0:11:08 > 0:11:11You talk about your wife, Dilek, she is in Turkey she is not
0:11:11 > 0:11:12free to travel.
0:11:12 > 0:11:15She has been stopped from visiting you in Germany.
0:11:15 > 0:11:20Yes, she was stopped at the airport without any accusation.
0:11:21 > 0:11:27There is no accusation against her.
0:11:27 > 0:11:30No investigation and she has done nothing other than marry me...
0:11:30 > 0:11:34How hard is that because you have no prospect of going home.
0:11:34 > 0:11:39She has no prospect of leaving Turkey.
0:11:39 > 0:11:41This is the price I was talking about.
0:11:41 > 0:11:44So this is part of the deal and he loves taking hostages
0:11:44 > 0:11:48and he tries to punish me by keeping the family away from each other.
0:11:48 > 0:11:52This is a strange word to use but do you feel a sense of guilt
0:11:52 > 0:11:55about your situation because you are now in Germany,
0:11:55 > 0:12:00you are here in the UK, a play is being produced about some
0:12:00 > 0:12:04of your experiences, you know, you are something of a well-known
0:12:04 > 0:12:08figure now in the Western media and yet your wife is stuck in Turkey
0:12:08 > 0:12:10but more than that, many of your colleagues
0:12:10 > 0:12:12on the Cumhuriyet newspaper are facing more legal proceedings.
0:12:13 > 0:12:17Many of them, I think 16 of them, have been in prison since you got
0:12:17 > 0:12:18out of the country.
0:12:18 > 0:12:20They are 150 journalists in all currently in prison,
0:12:20 > 0:12:23thousands have lost their jobs - do you feel awkward about being
0:12:23 > 0:12:24outside of Turkey?
0:12:24 > 0:12:32Yes of course.
0:12:32 > 0:12:43If I was in Turkey and would be in jail or in the cemetery so...
0:12:43 > 0:12:47But I'm not silent, I am still struggling for something.
0:12:47 > 0:12:52I am still writing and talking about my country and defending our
0:12:52 > 0:12:57freedom, our democracy so I really believe in the future so,
0:12:57 > 0:13:02in Turkey, I wouldn't be so vocal but now I have the opportunity
0:13:02 > 0:13:05to talk to people in the world about Turkey.
0:13:05 > 0:13:13Yes, we interviewed Mr Erdogan last year
0:13:13 > 0:13:14on HARDtalk.
0:13:14 > 0:13:18This is what he said about the accusation that he has
0:13:18 > 0:13:23repressed freedom of expression systematically in his country.
0:13:23 > 0:13:32He said, "no one is jailed because of journalism.
0:13:32 > 0:13:35Right now in Turkey there are many opposition journalist can write
0:13:35 > 0:13:38a lot of things, all kinds of articles, all kinds of insults,
0:13:38 > 0:13:41and they are still out there and those who are in jail,
0:13:41 > 0:13:42well, they are criminals.
0:13:42 > 0:13:44They have no title as journalists."
0:13:44 > 0:13:45Yes, exactly.
0:13:45 > 0:13:51So I have been working as a journalist for more than
0:13:51 > 0:13:5335 years now and convicted as a terrorist.
0:13:53 > 0:13:56There are a lot of journalists like me so in his eyes,
0:13:56 > 0:13:59if you're criticising the government, you are a terrorist
0:13:59 > 0:14:02and that is why he won't accept, he doesn't accept that there
0:14:03 > 0:14:05are journalists in jail because in his eyes they are not
0:14:06 > 0:14:10journalists but they are journalists.
0:14:10 > 0:14:13They are my friends and my colleagues and they have done
0:14:13 > 0:14:15nothing but write and criticise the government.
0:14:15 > 0:14:18Explain to me how Mr Erdogan is still,
0:14:18 > 0:14:20according to the opinion polls, by far the most popular
0:14:20 > 0:14:22politician in Turkey.
0:14:22 > 0:14:26Explain to me how it looks as though he can expect to be in power
0:14:26 > 0:14:33because of that popularity until, perhaps, 2029.
0:14:34 > 0:14:36The man dominates Turkey despite all the things you say
0:14:36 > 0:14:39about him, he is the man.
0:14:39 > 0:14:53He is the man.
0:14:53 > 0:14:55Imagine yourself in his shoe, but the president when you're
0:14:55 > 0:14:57determined to dominate the government, the Parliament
0:14:57 > 0:14:59the judiciary, the media, businesses.
0:14:59 > 0:15:02You are the Sultan, you're not allowed to make a demonstration
0:15:02 > 0:15:02against the government.
0:15:02 > 0:15:13It must be so easy to run such a country.
0:15:13 > 0:15:20It must be so easy to run such a country.Is there not also a
0:15:20 > 0:15:25question about you and your colleagues in the secular liberal
0:15:25 > 0:15:32progressive media? For all of your bravery and courage, and I do not
0:15:32 > 0:15:37belittle that in any way, you appear to be out of touch with many of your
0:15:37 > 0:15:44countrymen and women.The question should be the other way around, how
0:15:44 > 0:15:50come, in these circumstances, half of these people are still resisting
0:15:50 > 0:15:56him in such a country under these circumstances? Really, I mean, it is
0:15:56 > 0:16:02very surprising for us to see 50% of the people voted against him in the
0:16:02 > 0:16:11last referendum. It is bravery.What about Fethullah Gulen and the
0:16:11 > 0:16:28idea... Again, the Turkish state is clear about this. The idea that
0:16:28 > 0:16:32Gulen and his networks, and we saw it manifested in the idea he was
0:16:32 > 0:16:35behind the coup of 2015, he is trying to undermine democracy and
0:16:35 > 0:16:39they are trying to corrupt those institutions.I guess this is one of
0:16:39 > 0:16:48the issues that I agree with him. Are you a Gulenist?I agree with
0:16:48 > 0:17:03Erdogan. If someone is a Gulenist in Turkey, number one is Erdogan.
0:17:03 > 0:17:10Together, they run the country, for years. And Gulen was in charge of
0:17:10 > 0:17:16the theocracy, universities, media, and the university system, and
0:17:16 > 0:17:27Erdogan was in charge of the money. We work reciting both of them. And
0:17:27 > 0:17:31is now Erdogan says Gulen is not the right guy to partner with.He has to
0:17:31 > 0:17:35do something. To quote the Turkish Foreign Minister a few days ago, he
0:17:35 > 0:17:42said we are going through a necessary face to make sure Gulenist
0:17:42 > 0:17:45members, including sleeper cells, are removed from all positions of
0:17:45 > 0:17:48power in the media, business, and academia. It is a painful process,
0:17:48 > 0:17:56he said, but we act within the law. Ha, within the law. They inserted
0:17:56 > 0:18:07them into the state. They made it. And now the creator attacks the
0:18:07 > 0:18:13creator. It is a Frankenstein story. And now they are accusing us of
0:18:13 > 0:18:19being Gulenists. Everyone opposing the government nowadays is branded a
0:18:19 > 0:18:23Gulenist. That is the thing. I have nothing to do with them. The outside
0:18:23 > 0:18:27world looks at this and sometimes they are confused about what is
0:18:27 > 0:18:32happening in Turkey. Would you say you have been gravely disappointed
0:18:32 > 0:18:37with the reaction of the EU, for example, in these months, in terms
0:18:37 > 0:18:41of what you want to see, isolation and condemnation of Erdogan.
0:18:41 > 0:18:49Definitely. I am so much deeply disappointed by the institutes of
0:18:49 > 0:18:56Western governments. That is due to the refugee crisis, in fact...They
0:18:56 > 0:19:01need Mr Erdogan...They do not want to annoy him. They want someone to
0:19:01 > 0:19:21take refugees in Turkey. They made a dirty deal with Erdogan, and that
0:19:21 > 0:19:25was they kept a closed eye to his aggression and in turn he kept
0:19:25 > 0:19:28refugees in Turkey.You say a dirty deal, others say practical politics.
0:19:28 > 0:19:32To quote the former EU Commissioner, he said at the end of last year, in
0:19:32 > 0:19:37the midst of this negotiation, what Turkey could do to stem the flow of
0:19:37 > 0:19:40refugees into Europe, he said the EU needs Turkey more than Turkey needs
0:19:40 > 0:19:47the EU right now.What principles? What about democracy? We have been
0:19:47 > 0:19:54fighting for so-called "Western ideals" like equality for men and
0:19:54 > 0:20:00women, democracy, and so on. To see European leaders at the other side,
0:20:00 > 0:20:03it is really disappointing. They should be supporting democracy in
0:20:03 > 0:20:11Turkey, but instead, umm, they just ignored it.You are in a difficult
0:20:11 > 0:20:16position because on the one hand you seem to be idling for the isolation
0:20:16 > 0:20:21of Erdogan by the EU, and surely the whole point of the position is that
0:20:21 > 0:20:27you want bridges to be built between the EU and Turkey. What messages are
0:20:27 > 0:20:33sending if Turkey was completely isolated?Turkey is not akin to
0:20:33 > 0:20:39Erdogan. Erdogan should be isolated, Turkey should not. It is not only
0:20:39 > 0:20:47Erdogan. The opponents, the freedom fighters in Turkey, Democrats, and,
0:20:47 > 0:20:52you know, 50% of Turkey.You are asking the EU to interfere in
0:20:52 > 0:20:57Turkish internal affairs.No, I do not expect anything from the
0:20:57 > 0:21:04European governments. Take British artists trying to give a hand to
0:21:04 > 0:21:09Turkish democracy by, you know, playing something about Turkey. And
0:21:09 > 0:21:15some publishing houses playing, you know, publishing books about Turkey.
0:21:15 > 0:21:20Accepting Turkish academics. And trade unions, parties,
0:21:20 > 0:21:25organisations, I am talking about this. Do not isolate Turkey, make it
0:21:25 > 0:21:30a member in this family.That is a very interesting point you are
0:21:30 > 0:21:38making. I know you are here to work in a play called "We Are Arrested",
0:21:38 > 0:21:43based on a memoir you wrote in prison. A Shakespeare company is
0:21:43 > 0:21:47putting it on as a play in the UK. How important is that sort of
0:21:47 > 0:21:54cultural messaging, and reaching out across the world for you today? Does
0:21:54 > 0:22:00it make your life worth living? Yeah. This is a lifelong experience.
0:22:00 > 0:22:05It was a testimony, my book. I got a call from the Royal Shakespeare
0:22:05 > 0:22:10Company saying we just want to make a play out of this.Do you think it
0:22:10 > 0:22:15will make a difference?Of course. It is a very important message. And
0:22:15 > 0:22:20at the same time, it is a kind of Anushka and for the aggressive
0:22:20 > 0:22:23government saying that art is much more valuable than your daily
0:22:23 > 0:22:32politics. It will stay for years. But what about Erdogan?You wrote
0:22:32 > 0:22:37that in prison, so there is no doubting your determination to keep
0:22:37 > 0:22:41talking and expressing yourself if there. But surely at times you have
0:22:41 > 0:22:45to think that your wife is still stuck inside Turkey, you have other
0:22:45 > 0:22:51family inside Turkey, are you in anyway self censoring because you
0:22:51 > 0:22:59are so concerned about them?A very important question. Umm, at least
0:22:59 > 0:23:03you have to think twice what you are writing and what you talk about. I
0:23:03 > 0:23:13talk to my wife and she said OK, talk about me, because this is our
0:23:13 > 0:23:18struggle. But of course, this is the logic of taking hostages. If your
0:23:18 > 0:23:22friends are in jail, your family is there, of course you have to think
0:23:22 > 0:23:28twice. That is a kind of censorship. Do you think you will ever be able
0:23:28 > 0:23:32to live with your wife again?Of course. I am so hopeful about
0:23:32 > 0:23:38Turkey's feature. And we are coming to the end of this darkest dower. --
0:23:38 > 0:23:47future. -- hour. Unfortunately, Turkey is a missing...How can you
0:23:47 > 0:23:57say that with so much optimism as we have discussed that Erdogan's grip
0:23:57 > 0:24:01on your country is tighter than ever.But on the other hand, we have
0:24:01 > 0:24:12half of the people resisting. And just on Women's Day, streets were
0:24:12 > 0:24:15full of women resisting even if it is dangerous and risky for them.
0:24:15 > 0:24:19This country will not surrender. That is why I am so optimistic about
0:24:19 > 0:24:25the country.Can Dundar, thank you for coming in HARDtalk.Thank you
0:24:25 > 0:24:37very much.Thank you.