:00:00. > :00:00.and I want to see how we get on her voting those. As so often demand has
:00:00. > :00:10.exceeded supply, we must now move on. Before we come to the urgent
:00:11. > :00:16.questions that I have selected for today, I have a short statement to
:00:17. > :00:22.make about how I intend to implement the standing orders agreed by the
:00:23. > :00:29.House on the 22nd of October for the benefit of those listening the on
:00:30. > :00:34.this chamber. This concerns the so-called English votes on English
:00:35. > :00:40.laws issue. After a government bill has been introduced, a note will be
:00:41. > :00:45.published in the appropriate place on the order paper to the effect
:00:46. > :00:51.that I have not yet... For certification, the same process will
:00:52. > :00:55.be allowed for statutory instruments requiring consideration. If I sign
:00:56. > :00:59.the certificate, the note on the order paper will be changed
:01:00. > :01:05.accordingly. Any certification will also be recorded in the event that
:01:06. > :01:11.proceedings. I do not propose to record a decision not to certify,
:01:12. > :01:18.the absence of any note on the order paper will indicate that no
:01:19. > :01:23.certification has been made. Before report stage begins I will seek to
:01:24. > :01:29.identify and advance those changes made in committee, which I would
:01:30. > :01:35.expect to certify, together with any government amendments tabled for
:01:36. > :01:39.risk... Report stage, in past will likely lead me to issue a
:01:40. > :01:45.certificate. At the end of report stages of bills, where I am required
:01:46. > :01:49.to consider any matter for certification, I would as a matter
:01:50. > :01:55.of course expect a brief suspension of the House, so that I worried that
:01:56. > :02:01.deputy could leave the chair and D side whether to certify. Similar
:02:02. > :02:05.brief suspensions may be necessary at later stages. I propose to except
:02:06. > :02:12.the advice of the procedure committee not as a rule, to give
:02:13. > :02:15.reasons for decisions on certification during this
:02:16. > :02:21.experimental phase of the new regime. Anybody wishing to make
:02:22. > :02:29.representations to me, prior to any decision should send them to the
:02:30. > :02:34.Clark of legislation. I wish to insure the House that everything is
:02:35. > :02:41.in hand for double majority divisions including be third
:02:42. > :02:47.division. Thirdly, may I say as set out on Thursday, we are in
:02:48. > :02:52.experimental territory. I may indeed, myself, experiment by
:02:53. > :02:56.adjusting these arrangements as the new regime develop. Whatever the
:02:57. > :03:00.views of colleagues on their merits, I hope the House will
:03:01. > :03:05.support me and the officers of the House in trying to give effect to
:03:06. > :03:16.the standing orders to the best of our ability. We come now to the
:03:17. > :03:21.urgent question, Mr Fabian Hamilton. Will be minister make a statement on
:03:22. > :03:34.the arrest of three peaceful protesters during President Xi
:03:35. > :03:38.Jinping visit to London last week. Thank you very much indeed Mr
:03:39. > :03:46.Speaker. Mr Speaker, last week there was a very successful visit of the
:03:47. > :03:52.president people bash of the People's Republic of China. As the
:03:53. > :04:00.tape with all state -- state visits, plans were taken to ensure the
:04:01. > :04:04.security and safety of the visit. The right of peaceful process is
:04:05. > :04:11.guaranteed under UK law, with respect to protester's rights to
:04:12. > :04:17.express their views peacefully. The police then sought to facilitate
:04:18. > :04:20.peaceful protest. However, as part of the operation last week, three
:04:21. > :04:29.individuals were arrested. I understand it was Pollock to public
:04:30. > :04:33.knowledge that the police arrested that person on conspiracy to commit
:04:34. > :04:37.threatening behaviour, all individuals have now been bound to
:04:38. > :04:42.return to the London police station wall further investigations
:04:43. > :04:48.continue. Operational police process our entire the matters for chief
:04:49. > :04:53.constables and inappropriate for me to comment on specific individual
:04:54. > :04:57.cases. While the right to peacefully protest is guaranteed under UK law,
:04:58. > :05:02.protester rights need to be balanced for others to go about their
:05:03. > :05:09.business without fear of intimidation. Right to peaceful
:05:10. > :05:13.process does not... And the police have powers to deal with such acts.
:05:14. > :05:17.The Metropolitan police themselves have issued a statement on this
:05:18. > :05:20.issue last week, they reject any suggestion that they acted
:05:21. > :05:25.inappropriately. They made clear that throughout the visit they had
:05:26. > :05:30.sought to facilitate his feasible protest and all those who wish to do
:05:31. > :05:34.so were allowed to do so and express their views. That is a fundamental
:05:35. > :05:41.British value of freedom of expression. I am sure this house
:05:42. > :05:50.would continue to support it. Also a reminder that it... Police
:05:51. > :05:56.complaints are an independent one and procedures for down in 2002 on
:05:57. > :05:59.please format to make sure that please officers and staff are
:06:00. > :06:03.answerable to the public, that processes there. But there is a
:06:04. > :06:07.police investigation going on and I think that is something that
:06:08. > :06:12.politicians should stay out of. Thank you Mr Speaker, I think the
:06:13. > :06:16.Minister for his statement. However right Honorable member from across
:06:17. > :06:23.the House I am sure to share my deep concern in the wake that a former
:06:24. > :06:29.Chinese dissident and veteran of the Tian an men Square protests of 1989
:06:30. > :06:34.was arrested Wednesday at last it week and a short time waiter...
:06:35. > :06:38.Later to Tibetan students, one of them was a British citizens, were
:06:39. > :06:50.arrested for attempting to display a to batten flag. Doctor Zhao who is
:06:51. > :06:53.now a British is that tried to display to placards protesting
:06:54. > :06:57.against China's human rights abuses when he was tackled to the ground by
:06:58. > :07:03.five Metropolitan police officers and shown on Channel 4 News. While
:07:04. > :07:09.the protesters were held, their homes were searched and their
:07:10. > :07:11.computers and iPods were seized. To their mobile phones were tapped by
:07:12. > :07:15.the police. Does the Minister have any idea when their possessions will
:07:16. > :07:19.be returned to the three protesters? Will the confidentiality
:07:20. > :07:24.of the data on their computers be respected, all three depend on their
:07:25. > :07:28.computers for their work. Willie comment on why their homes were
:07:29. > :07:36.searched at night wills they were in custody. Any charges they face will
:07:37. > :07:42.be decided on in bird... Early December, does he believe is
:07:43. > :07:46.justified? Is it acceptable to detain lawful protesters overnight
:07:47. > :07:55.and sells? Finally Mr Speaker, could he comment on whether these
:07:56. > :08:00.route... Arrest were related to the visit of President Xi Jinping? It is
:08:01. > :08:09.an ongoing investigation and I am not going to jeopardise the case by
:08:10. > :08:13.commenting further. What the Minister says or chooses not to say
:08:14. > :08:18.is a matter for the Minister, but they can raise an agreement with the
:08:19. > :08:22.chair, and how often they which so these matters will run her round, so
:08:23. > :08:28.the colleagues must not worry about that. It seems extraordinary to me
:08:29. > :08:32.that only three people were arrested when there is a lot of people
:08:33. > :08:38.wanting to protest. It seems to me, that the police allow the protest,
:08:39. > :08:42.if there was a complaint about 300 people being arrested I do not
:08:43. > :08:48.understand the problem with three? As I said in my statement there is a
:08:49. > :08:52.lot of work in preparation of the visit to make sure that people had
:08:53. > :08:56.the right to protest as the right to protest as he laws stipulate. But
:08:57. > :09:04.ethical to police made a decision to arrest, and it is in operation all
:09:05. > :09:10.matter and not for me to comment on. Mr Speaker China is a proud
:09:11. > :09:14.country, the second largest economy in the world and seem to be the
:09:15. > :09:20.largest. The Anglo Chinese relationship is an important one in
:09:21. > :09:27.collaboration and investment... If we seek to strengthen that
:09:28. > :09:32.relationship in any relationship should be underpinned by a integrity
:09:33. > :09:35.of them probe to approach. There are certain values of human rights that
:09:36. > :09:42.transcend any commercial or other relationship. That is why in our
:09:43. > :09:48.country we believe and rightly so, that rights are so important and
:09:49. > :09:51.rooted in our great Democratic tradition of the Magna Carta.
:09:52. > :09:56.Traditionally in a free society we both engage and we speak out as
:09:57. > :10:03.indeed Mr Speaker you did last week. As did the Leader of the Opposition,
:10:04. > :10:08.he received the interrogation of the Chinese president. Would be prime
:10:09. > :10:15.minister been quite as vigorous as you. In a free society we defend the
:10:16. > :10:20.right to dissent and protest, it would not be appropriate to comment
:10:21. > :10:26.in any detail on the circumstances of this case because it is under
:10:27. > :10:32.investigation. But these are very serious allegations that should be
:10:33. > :10:39.properly investigated, including the raid on the homes of those engaged
:10:40. > :10:44.in the dissent. Therefore the Honorable member is right to raise
:10:45. > :10:48.these concerns on the house floor of the comments. I am not certain there
:10:49. > :10:53.was a question there, but I might have missed it. I agree with
:10:54. > :10:57.everything he said early on in the statement about our relationship
:10:58. > :11:01.with China and I think it is absolutely important and the
:11:02. > :11:10.principle of protest is absolutely there. But there is three people in
:11:11. > :11:14.and one in... Ongoing investigation and it would be wrong on any shape
:11:15. > :11:21.or form to comment on the legitimacy of the arrest while the atomization
:11:22. > :11:25.goes on. Thank you Mr Speaker. I am glad the Minister shares our pride
:11:26. > :11:32.and tradition of peaceful protest, does the Minister sure my shame at
:11:33. > :11:39.the purported harassment of the Tian an men Square survivor. And does the
:11:40. > :11:42.Minister if peaceful protesters or other peaceful protesters in this
:11:43. > :11:48.jaybird get a knock in the door on the middle of the night for the
:11:49. > :11:53.please, will he help us? Mr Speaker, I am not going to prejudge
:11:54. > :12:02.an investigation by the Metropolitan police would have it huge amount of
:12:03. > :12:04.respect for. Does not prejudge a case and let the investigation
:12:05. > :12:09.continue and then we will all know the facts. Thank you Mr Speaker the
:12:10. > :12:15.Chinese ambassador to the UK's stated that nobody would be put
:12:16. > :12:21.behind bars simply for criticising the Chinese government. I appreciate
:12:22. > :12:24.this government is keen to banish human rights protection in this
:12:25. > :12:30.country, but is the Minister really happy to not even be able to make
:12:31. > :12:36.the same several... Civil liberty commitment that China claims to be
:12:37. > :12:38.making. And I appreciate that he cannot comment on an individual case
:12:39. > :12:43.so I am not going to ask them to. But I am asking him to tell me of
:12:44. > :12:48.any reason hypothetically speaking that somebody went... Weaving their
:12:49. > :12:52.countries flagged should be arrested, put behind bars, and have
:12:53. > :12:59.their mobile phone and PC taken from them? This may become slightly
:13:00. > :13:04.repetitive but at the end of the day the police operationally on the
:13:05. > :13:09.ground made a decision and we should respect, wait for the investigation
:13:10. > :13:14.to do that... To finish and then make commentaries. And if someone
:13:15. > :13:20.wants to make a complaint than it is not on the floor of this house it is
:13:21. > :13:24.after it has finished. Than my right honourable friend assure the House
:13:25. > :13:30.that these potential breaches of the peas be give it the exact same
:13:31. > :13:38.investigation, due process, whether if they are involved in the Chinese
:13:39. > :13:42.President's visit... And there will be a vote wherever there is
:13:43. > :13:49.necessary. If an individual that is returning to the pays made it plays
:13:50. > :13:53.to... A complaint to the Independent police complaints, then it does not
:13:54. > :14:01.matter if this was a Chinese demonstration, or any other sort of
:14:02. > :14:08.dinner... Demonstration, I think the whole house will make that decision
:14:09. > :14:13.and support that decision as well. Does the Minister have any idea at
:14:14. > :14:17.all of the anger felt here and certainly outside over what occurred
:14:18. > :14:22.and it is unfortunate that he appears to be an apologist for what
:14:23. > :14:28.occurred. It seems to many people that what took place as far as the
:14:29. > :14:33.police were concerned was and could be described as British police
:14:34. > :14:37.action with Chinese characteristics. Mr Speaker, I am
:14:38. > :14:41.actually going to treat with contempt some of the comments that
:14:42. > :14:44.the individual... The amount of experience he has in this house I
:14:45. > :14:49.thought he would be supporting the police in a very difficult
:14:50. > :14:54.situation. I was not there, I saw TV coverage, and the officers there
:14:55. > :14:58.made the decision, they made the decision to arrest and the ongoing
:14:59. > :15:05.investigation is continuing, let's wait and see that happen. Perhaps I
:15:06. > :15:10.can elicit eight, and if I speak more generally and I appreciate that
:15:11. > :15:17.freedom... Of expression is a centrepiece of democracy. Will he
:15:18. > :15:22.tell me how was freedom of expression that would lead be
:15:23. > :15:27.allowed up by bullies who corralled peaceful Tibetan demonstrators at
:15:28. > :15:30.the back the mouth where they had a line of police officers in front of
:15:31. > :15:38.them while pro Chinese demonstrators wearing T-shirts given to them by
:15:39. > :15:49.the Chinese Embassy were in the front? How the police protest the
:15:50. > :15:52.situation is a operational police decision and that is something that
:15:53. > :15:59.politicians stay out of because we do not want to live in that sort of
:16:00. > :16:03.state, Mr Speaker. One of the three individuals arrested is a
:16:04. > :16:07.constituent of mine and she is a British citizen is in and she was
:16:08. > :16:14.arrested on Wednesday for waving a Tibetan flag. Grandstand not looking
:16:15. > :16:18.into the grep the grounds yet, but if there'd proved to be a case that
:16:19. > :16:26.there were not grounds for arrest, what would he agree with looking
:16:27. > :16:30.into it. It seems that these three individuals were arrested without
:16:31. > :16:38.sufficient grounds. I can understand. I am a can... I
:16:39. > :16:44.understand the concerns he expressed, but I would also wait for
:16:45. > :16:48.the police investigation, there are a lot of assumptions, but let's
:16:49. > :16:52.wait. I have faith in the police of this country, something we all have,
:16:53. > :17:04.so let's wait and see how the investigation goes. Thank you very
:17:05. > :17:09.much Mr Speaker, the... 284 placards calling for human rights in China
:17:10. > :17:16.and his home was searched but his wife and his computers work
:17:17. > :17:22.confiscated and I stood to his wife and it was a traumatic experience
:17:23. > :17:28.and particularly for him since he was held in jail for 18 months at
:17:29. > :17:35.the Tiananmen Square demonstrations. How can a member upon her man held
:17:36. > :17:39.to account to make those disgraceful decisions who was on the face of it
:17:40. > :17:43.by hitting entirely peacefully and should not have been arrested in his
:17:44. > :17:49.house should not have been searched? While I understand, Mr
:17:50. > :17:54.Speaker. The feeling that she needs to support her constituents, I fully
:17:55. > :18:00.understand. We must wait, because that is the type of democracy we are
:18:01. > :18:04.in. There is an ongoing investigation, and he is on about
:18:05. > :18:09.and let's wait and see and then we can see what happens and after that
:18:10. > :18:16.after all of this is old... Over a will like to meet with colleagues to
:18:17. > :18:22.discuss this. I spent most of last week in Geneva chairing a committee
:18:23. > :18:28.of the interval union on the rights of parliamentarian. For many of the
:18:29. > :18:32.preachers of rights involved freedom of expression, etc. Many things that
:18:33. > :18:39.seem to have taken place here in the last week. Many things that seem to
:18:40. > :18:42.have taken place here in the on freedom of expression when quite
:18:43. > :18:46.clearly what should have been, or was, as I extend a peaceful
:18:47. > :18:54.demonstration was treated in this way. I met the Honorable Lady just
:18:55. > :19:00.before she went to Geneva and I know why she was there an I hope it was a
:19:01. > :19:05.successful visit. Thousands of people did demonstrate peacefully,
:19:06. > :19:11.three people were arrested. Let's wait and see what the investigation
:19:12. > :19:19.cover. I trust the police, the honourable gentleman does not so he
:19:20. > :19:28.should be ashamed. Order! Not an appropriate authorisation from a
:19:29. > :19:35.sedentary position. Order! Order. No common as required for... From the
:19:36. > :19:42.honourable member and I recognise it in the exercise of his important no
:19:43. > :19:46.passing responsibilities, he feels a duty to discharge his obligations
:19:47. > :19:52.with great commitment. No, I am not interested in his views, his
:19:53. > :19:57.responsibility is to sit there and not in shake his head at appropriate
:19:58. > :20:03.places in to fetch and carry notes when required. I do not need to hear
:20:04. > :20:08.him when he is on his seat. Thank you Mr Speaker this may have been a
:20:09. > :20:14.lawful arrest, I do not want to prejudge the please, not knowing the
:20:15. > :20:18.evidence. What we do know is up and down the country not only in the
:20:19. > :20:25.metro polity and police, but other police, there are unlawful arrests
:20:26. > :20:28.every single day of the week and for that police force is the taxpayer
:20:29. > :20:36.has to pay millions of pounds of concert... Composition every year.
:20:37. > :20:40.But they have not published those figures so we do not know how much
:20:41. > :20:45.that is to taxpayer. With the Minister agree with me that if those
:20:46. > :20:49.figures were published it might incentivize police to be more
:20:50. > :20:54.careful of what is lawful and unlawful? I think my Honorable
:20:55. > :20:59.friend is trying to drag me into a discussion on if the arrest word
:21:00. > :21:03.lawful or unlawful but I do not want to get in to that while the
:21:04. > :21:07.investigation continues. The Minister is absolutely right,
:21:08. > :21:12.operational matters are and must be for the police. If I say to him that
:21:13. > :21:18.the execution of these operational matters are done in such a way as to
:21:19. > :21:23.risk the trilling effect on freedom of speech, that becomes a matter for
:21:24. > :21:28.this house. I do not see how it would prejudice any future
:21:29. > :21:31.prosecution for the Minister to be interrogating those responsible for
:21:32. > :21:37.the policy behind these actions, and I would suggest to him that he has a
:21:38. > :21:44.duty to do so, will he do that? Mr Speaker as I said in my opening
:21:45. > :21:50.remarks that the president of the road public of China, the secretary
:21:51. > :21:57.was delete... Breathed in on how we will police the visit and the
:21:58. > :22:02.possibility of cores... At the end of the day, that is still the
:22:03. > :22:09.operational position on the day that took place and there will be a
:22:10. > :22:14.review on bad. The question today on three people being arrested is not
:22:15. > :22:19.something that I can talk on because I could possibly jeopardise the
:22:20. > :22:28.ongoing investigation. But we must always learn from policing and how
:22:29. > :22:31.it is done. When the Minister will look back on these particular
:22:32. > :22:34.actions and form a judgement on whether they are appropriate at not
:22:35. > :22:44.will he also look at the actions reported by a today's independent,
:22:45. > :22:48.who is reported to actually being accused to helping demonstrate pro
:22:49. > :22:53.Chinese demonstrations, which I feel is inappropriate? I must admit that
:22:54. > :22:58.I was not aware of the gentleman or the actions that the general...
:22:59. > :23:05.Honorable lady is referring to and I will look into that. Does the
:23:06. > :23:09.Minister appreciate the propaganda value of what has happened in the
:23:10. > :23:14.course of the last few weeks with Mac it was all about China, and
:23:15. > :23:24.human rights and Tiananmen Square. Indeed the Speaker almost referred
:23:25. > :23:29.to it in his remark, but now today a tiny bash the Chinese are able to
:23:30. > :23:37.say it is no different in Britain. Mr Speaker I find that completely
:23:38. > :23:42.baffling. We have gone out of our way to... As a state visit to have a
:23:43. > :23:46.very senior member of a foreign government come to this country and
:23:47. > :23:54.to make sure that people had the opportunity to protest. Eight... At
:23:55. > :24:00.a huge cost, but at the end of the day when arrests take place, and
:24:01. > :24:05.people are being investigated and it is not right for the please minister
:24:06. > :24:08.to judge how other countries will look on those arrest until after the
:24:09. > :24:21.conclusion, I would have thought, after the investigation. Can I say
:24:22. > :24:25.to the Minister, someone who... I think that the recent visit was a
:24:26. > :24:31.great success, by and large. In the balance, on the things that they are
:24:32. > :24:35.doing here, but there was also a very pleasant visit. I have known
:24:36. > :24:41.him a long time and if he finished his remarks, and set them in the
:24:42. > :24:44.same time that he started his remarks, we would have been much
:24:45. > :24:52.happier. It's our right as members of Parliament is to say we are
:24:53. > :24:57.concerned. My friend from Leeds, when the Minister first came back
:24:58. > :25:05.and sort of testosterone, and going to do spit... Defend his batch. At
:25:06. > :25:12.the should of started that way because we all quite like him that
:25:13. > :25:22.way the in his mode. Guidance has been provided in the Minister must
:25:23. > :25:26.make his own assessment of it. To be fair, it is a massively serious
:25:27. > :25:30.issue, particularly for that three people who have been arrested. It is
:25:31. > :25:35.an important issue for the police and perhaps for the prosecution. We
:25:36. > :25:39.all need to wait, I know this is very important at the moment, but we
:25:40. > :25:49.all need to wait and perhaps will will all learn a little from that.
:25:50. > :25:55.Thank you Mr Speaker, this is a serious matter and I would like to
:25:56. > :25:58.ask the Minister if he is aware that a few days before this state visit
:25:59. > :26:04.of the president of China, there was a visit to this country by the chief
:26:05. > :26:09.executive of Hong Kong. Outside of the Dorchester Hotel the umbrella
:26:10. > :26:13.movement were playing music and having megaphones and shouting. Can
:26:14. > :26:20.the Minister tell us what any of the Hong Kong term... Democracy
:26:21. > :26:30.protesters, were any of them arrested? I do not know, let me find
:26:31. > :26:38.out. I was not aware. If there is, obviously I will but the House no.
:26:39. > :26:45.During the visit of President Xi I was meeting with a Chinese
:26:46. > :26:51.dissidents, human rights lawyer who was granted asylum by the Americans.
:26:52. > :26:56.He talked about the pressures that human rights activists are facing in
:26:57. > :26:59.China. The persecution of journalists, and the persecution of
:27:00. > :27:07.Christians. I appreciate the Minister is not able to talk about
:27:08. > :27:13.police operations, but it is important that we recognise the
:27:14. > :27:15.sensitivity of countries like China having seen how democracy doesn't
:27:16. > :27:21.operate in Britain and that freedom of speech is respected as is the
:27:22. > :27:24.freedom to demonstrate. I hope the Minister will make sure the
:27:25. > :27:31.Metropolitan police are made aware of that. The Metropolitan police
:27:32. > :27:35.amateur artist into the discussions here, I shall also make sure it in
:27:36. > :27:39.discussions that I have with the much part in police. The fact that
:27:40. > :27:41.demonstrations were peaceful demonstrations by thousands of
:27:42. > :27:44.people took place in this country is an example to the world where we can
:27:45. > :27:49.have demonstrations. What happened with the arrest is an issue that am
:27:50. > :27:56.I going to go into, we are a democracy where peace-loving people
:27:57. > :28:00.can demonstrate. Does the policeman is know where the formal commits
:28:01. > :28:03.have been made to the Metropolitan police? If they have been, but the
:28:04. > :28:07.minute they think it is appropriate that rather than being dealt with on
:28:08. > :28:11.an internal investigative measure, they should be referred
:28:12. > :28:16.automatically to the IP cc because of their sensitivity? I am not aware
:28:17. > :28:20.whether it is a formal comment Ie complaint has been made, that is a
:28:21. > :28:23.normal procedure to go to the Metropolitan police and they
:28:24. > :28:26.themselves can refer it or it can be referred later on what has gone to
:28:27. > :28:29.the due process of the complaints procedure. I will find out whether
:28:30. > :28:34.or not the much more than police have arranged for the commission to
:28:35. > :28:38.write for the Honorable Lady. The Minister may be embarrassed on
:28:39. > :28:42.behalf of the government distinguished foreign guest, the
:28:43. > :28:44.understand in this house is embarrassed when one of the
:28:45. > :28:48.everything people says it feels like when I was in China the police to
:28:49. > :28:52.pick up signals from the government and the government is in the process
:28:53. > :28:55.of repeating the Human Rights Act and obligations of the European
:28:56. > :29:00.convention concluding their Article 11 rights to protest freedom
:29:01. > :29:03.Association, will he properly investigate the circumstances where
:29:04. > :29:11.the operation decisions are over to ensure that our feelings are not
:29:12. > :29:17.unsubstantiated in these matters? Mr Speaker, of course was the
:29:18. > :29:21.investigation and the decisions are made will all look very carefully at
:29:22. > :29:28.what went on. To insinuate that the police, because of a feeling they
:29:29. > :29:34.get from the government's future legislation I think is a stretch of
:29:35. > :29:40.the imagination. Am grateful to the Minister and participating
:29:41. > :29:44.colleagues. Become to the urgent question. To after Secretary of
:29:45. > :29:49.State for culture media, and sport if you make a statement on the
:29:50. > :29:54.government responsibilities and policies for protecting consumers
:29:55. > :30:01.and infrastructure following large scale data breaches such as that
:30:02. > :30:03.suffered by talk talk. Thank you Mr Speaker, let me begin by saying this
:30:04. > :30:08.is clearly a very serious matter. We are all aware that talk talk
:30:09. > :30:13.suffered a data breach last week, I want to reassure numbers of these
:30:14. > :30:19.house and customers that may be affected that on forces are working
:30:20. > :30:24.and of course continue to go so. I want to commend the chief executive
:30:25. > :30:27.of Talk Talk for her openness since Talk Talk became aware of the attack
:30:28. > :30:30.and they know she will do all she can to protect her customers.
:30:31. > :30:34.Nevertheless, this is a very serious incident. I do understand the
:30:35. > :30:37.company has offered for support to customers to ensure they are alerted
:30:38. > :30:40.to any suspicious activity on their bank accounts, I am also reassured
:30:41. > :30:45.that the financial conduct authority has said that they are not unaware
:30:46. > :30:48.of any unusual activity at the moment. Also, further advice and
:30:49. > :30:52.guidance is available in a range of places such as get safe online and
:30:53. > :30:57.cyber streetlights. However, it is extremely important that companies
:30:58. > :31:01.do all they can to protect themselves and their customers of
:31:02. > :31:03.course, from cyber attacks. Its government and the previous
:31:04. > :31:08.administration have worked extremely hard to ensure that companies to
:31:09. > :31:13.help the help they need to protect themselves. We have invested ?860
:31:14. > :31:15.million over five years in the national cyber security programme,
:31:16. > :31:21.said of the national cyber crime unit Ie unit and launched the cyber
:31:22. > :31:27.streetlights schemes I am created a number of business is aware of cyber
:31:28. > :31:30.streetlights has doubled, and the cyber essentials team that sets out
:31:31. > :31:34.basic technical control more than a thousand baited as have now signed
:31:35. > :31:38.up to it. A year ago we made it mandatory that any company that
:31:39. > :31:41.contracted the government should be accredited under the cyber
:31:42. > :31:46.essentials scheme where appropriate and proportionate. I am also pleased
:31:47. > :31:55.that almost every 5300 Company has included cyber security on its risk
:31:56. > :31:58.register. The ten steps to cyber security it Semper Fi version is
:31:59. > :32:01.available for small and medium enterprises. Recent advancement to
:32:02. > :32:04.speak or do show how vital it is that we maintain this momentum and
:32:05. > :32:07.that business is asked at our advice in order to protect their customers
:32:08. > :32:14.from harm. I'll be writing again to the 5300 company, companies to
:32:15. > :32:18.rewrite is that the Fed to take and the steps in place. Mr Speaker, the
:32:19. > :32:21.government take the youth UK cyber security seriously and will continue
:32:22. > :32:25.to do everything in our power to protect the organisations and
:32:26. > :32:32.individual, tax. Thank you this Speaker. Thank you for granting the
:32:33. > :32:37.urgent question. You give criminals a gateway into their lives, I spoke
:32:38. > :32:43.to one woman who lost ?5,000 in a sophisticated scam following a
:32:44. > :32:47.previous Talk Talk breach. Today up to 4 million people are wondering
:32:48. > :32:50.what they do they have lost under where a cyber attack will come
:32:51. > :32:54.from. They are checking their bank accounts, their collars, their
:32:55. > :33:01.credit cards, government needs to reassure us our digitalized our
:33:02. > :33:05.secure and help argued, digital economy to grow. Can the Minister
:33:06. > :33:08.tell us when he first spoke to Talk Talk about the breach and its
:33:09. > :33:14.implications and if he is now aware what data was taken and whether it
:33:15. > :33:19.was encrypted. What obligations were there on Talk Talk to report the
:33:20. > :33:24.breach to the ICO and to advise customers and he did do it quickly
:33:25. > :33:29.enough. What might the compensation to Talk Talk have for how long, and
:33:30. > :33:33.how can they exercise them? Whether he would ask the information
:33:34. > :33:37.Commissioner to update his guidance in the light of the current
:33:38. > :33:43.confusion, what additional resources will he have to respond to the up to
:33:44. > :33:51.4 million inquiries from and the will of this breach the report said
:33:52. > :33:55.as one cyber crime for many? Mr Speaker, for many years we have been
:33:56. > :33:59.calling on governments to take action to protect consumers and
:34:00. > :34:06.citizens cyber scams. This government's data policy is chaos,
:34:07. > :34:10.illuminated by occasional flashes of incompetence. Will Minister
:34:11. > :34:15.acknowledge that all the innovation is come from the criminals while the
:34:16. > :34:24.government sits on its hands leaving it to businesses and consumers to
:34:25. > :34:27.suffer the consequences. Thank you Mr Speaker. Of course the Honorable
:34:28. > :34:31.Lady is entitled to ask the questions that she has asked which
:34:32. > :34:36.are very valid. I think that I have to take issue at the beginning Mr
:34:37. > :34:39.Speaker with her assertion that the government has somehow been sitting
:34:40. > :34:43.on its hands. I don't think she heard my response to the urgent
:34:44. > :34:46.question, we have invested more than ?860 million in cyber security. We
:34:47. > :34:50.have a number of very, very effective schemes with which to
:34:51. > :34:54.engage business. It is worth remembering this money was invested
:34:55. > :35:00.at the time of economic austerity. Was one of the first decisions taken
:35:01. > :35:04.by the Coalition government. The Honorable Lady asked how many people
:35:05. > :35:10.have had lost their data, it is a fast-moving situation. I think given
:35:11. > :35:15.the ongoing investigation, it is still taking place it is remiss of
:35:16. > :35:20.me to put a final figure on this. Law enforcement agencies were in
:35:21. > :35:24.touch with Talk Talk from Thursday, we have been and continues
:35:25. > :35:32.discussions with Talk Talk on this issue since Thursday. In terms of
:35:33. > :35:35.what data has been taken, the chief executive of Talk Talk has issued a
:35:36. > :35:40.number of statements on this thing that bank account details have been
:35:41. > :35:50.given out and also that some credit card details albeit tokenized have
:35:51. > :35:52.been stolen as well. As far as whether or not Talk Talk report
:35:53. > :35:58.dated the breach in time for the information Commissioner is office,
:35:59. > :36:00.they'll be a matter between the information Commissioner and Donna
:36:01. > :36:07.Commissioner and Talk Talk although I do understand that was reported on
:36:08. > :36:09.Thursday. Also the case as I understand that any rights of
:36:10. > :36:14.compensation and how long those will take will take a matter for it be
:36:15. > :36:18.information Commissioner. I am delighted that the information
:36:19. > :36:22.Commissioner has since last month within my department, it is this
:36:23. > :36:27.kind of government that is needed to make it as effective as possible in
:36:28. > :36:31.terms of our combating cyber crime and cyber fraud. I will certainly
:36:32. > :36:39.meet with the information Commissioner to discuss these issues
:36:40. > :36:44.going forward. The police have extensive resources in which to
:36:45. > :36:54.combat cyber crime, we were the government that did set up the
:36:55. > :36:58.national cyber crime unit. Thank you very much indeed, Mr Speaker. May I
:36:59. > :37:04.confirm that will be looking very closely at this issue on the sport
:37:05. > :37:08.committee, may I ask my Honorable friend whether he noted that much of
:37:09. > :37:12.this information as it appears had not been encrypted, and whether it
:37:13. > :37:17.is a case for requiring encryption of customer data in other companies
:37:18. > :37:21.such as this in the future? I'm delighted the chairman will be
:37:22. > :37:24.conducting an inquiry into data protection. I am sure it will be
:37:25. > :37:29.extremely valuable particularly the findings that are, the conclusions
:37:30. > :37:34.that, the conclusions that come out of that report. It has to be said
:37:35. > :37:38.that companies should encrypt their information, there has been some
:37:39. > :37:45.misinformation that the government is somehow against encryption. Mr
:37:46. > :37:50.Speaker, when these cyber attack on Talk Talk has initiated the problems
:37:51. > :37:54.faced by governments which failed to protect the interest uncooked
:37:55. > :37:57.centres to their lightweight regulation of telecoms, for the
:37:58. > :38:01.third time in this than a year, the 4 million customers out of Talk Talk
:38:02. > :38:05.have had their confidential details compromised. Once again, the
:38:06. > :38:10.government and Talk Talk has fallen charts in their response. Now Talk
:38:11. > :38:13.Talk has attended to downplay the impact of the attack on their
:38:14. > :38:18.website stating that these core system was not affected. This
:38:19. > :38:21.ignores the broader use of personal data in fraud and identity theft. Is
:38:22. > :38:27.estimated that the value of a credit card number two criminal increases
:38:28. > :38:31.by 500% when combined with the personal details of that
:38:32. > :38:38.individual. All credit card numbers can expire and change, people names,
:38:39. > :38:42.addresses, and date of birth do not have evidently, one the criminal has
:38:43. > :38:46.these they can be used for numerous purposes and Talk Talk clearly is
:38:47. > :38:55.not taking this seriously enough. In the United States AT was fined ?17
:38:56. > :39:00.million for failing to protect customer data in the United Kingdom
:39:01. > :39:04.up in the ICU can only pay fines of up to ?500,000. For a company which
:39:05. > :39:11.received an annual revenue of nearly 1.8 billion last year, a find that
:39:12. > :39:16.small will clearly not be terrifying. Deregulation of telecoms
:39:17. > :39:22.much be strengthened to protect consumers. Will the Secretary of
:39:23. > :39:26.State agree that telecom providers must be held fully responsible for
:39:27. > :39:33.failing to protect confidential data and regulation needs to be chanted
:39:34. > :39:42.to ensure it is, free counselling from TalkTalk is read it meaningless
:39:43. > :39:48.I'm afraid. . As I said earlier, the information Commissioner office will
:39:49. > :39:51.be looking at this data breach. They do have extensive powers to take
:39:52. > :39:55.action at a deed to lead the significant buying. We are always
:39:56. > :39:58.open on the side of the health suggestions about how that could be
:39:59. > :40:01.improved as I said in an early answer I'll meet the information
:40:02. > :40:09.Commissioner office to look at further changes may need to be made
:40:10. > :40:12.in the light of the data breach. The Internet is the fastest growing
:40:13. > :40:21.sector of the economy moving from about 6% of GDP in 2011 to 10% now
:40:22. > :40:24.and growing. In the government's admirable UK cyber strategy, one of
:40:25. > :40:28.its aims is to make the UK one of the most secure places in the world
:40:29. > :40:33.to do business in the cyberspace. That will depend on the capabilities
:40:34. > :40:35.of our law enforcement operation such as the Met police that are
:40:36. > :40:41.working with TalkTalk today. What can the Minister say to us about
:40:42. > :40:44.ensuring that our law enforcement offices have the skill that our law
:40:45. > :40:46.enforcement offices have the skills of the Bohn capabilities which it
:40:47. > :40:50.needed to tackle cyber crime and maintained at confidence we need to
:40:51. > :40:57.that we can continue to do pawn business on the Internet. She is
:40:58. > :41:01.quite right to say that cyber security is, lives at the heart of
:41:02. > :41:05.the success of our judicial economy. Is absently vital. Customers can
:41:06. > :41:09.trust the websites to which they go, it is also vital that we have the
:41:10. > :41:13.right law enforcement capabilities. I am delighted that the parties
:41:14. > :41:19.national cyber unit has received significant funding and also that we
:41:20. > :41:24.have regional cyber crime unit as well including the Metropolitan
:41:25. > :41:32.police who has a very successful cyber crime unit. Mr Speaker, two
:41:33. > :41:38.years ago the country's most senior police officer on fraud told the
:41:39. > :41:43.Senate committee that we were not winning the war against cyber crime.
:41:44. > :41:48.Every single month there are 600,000 cyber attacks against British
:41:49. > :41:52.companies, we need a 21st-century response to this 21st-century crime.
:41:53. > :41:57.We seek an urgent meeting with the home Secretary to see if more of the
:41:58. > :42:02.cyber budget could be put into policing. Could he also see what
:42:03. > :42:06.could be done to advise and assist British companies are losing ?34
:42:07. > :42:12.billion every year to cyber crime. Many of these crime, attacks on loss
:42:13. > :42:15.from the territories of EU partners. This is an international crime, the
:42:16. > :42:21.government should be commended for putting the money in. We need to do
:42:22. > :42:26.much more in conjunction with other countries shoe, career out. Thank
:42:27. > :42:30.you for that question. Given that he has been gracious enough to come in
:42:31. > :42:35.the government for investing money in this area, let me also meet him
:42:36. > :42:39.halfway and say of course ministers do meet across departments. There
:42:40. > :42:42.are a number of departments with that of an interest in this area. Of
:42:43. > :42:48.course you always look at what more can be done. I will certainly take
:42:49. > :42:51.his advice and an sure that as this matter continues, we meet as
:42:52. > :42:56.ministers across departments to look at how we can more effectively
:42:57. > :43:01.co-ordinate the action taken. I welcome what the Minister says, it
:43:02. > :43:06.underlies the importance of cyber security skills to our whole
:43:07. > :43:11.economy. We are under the process of establishing an institute of cyber
:43:12. > :43:13.security in my constituency which will provide cyber security
:43:14. > :43:18.apprenticeships along with a range of other courses for smaller
:43:19. > :43:23.businesses in my area. Signee Jonathan Honorable friend
:43:24. > :43:27.incrementing in that regard, it is worth pointing out that there are
:43:28. > :43:32.something like 14 cyber security clusters of United Kingdom. This is
:43:33. > :43:41.a very important industry which the government continues to support. The
:43:42. > :43:44.Minister has no doubt aware that yes, many companies have decided to
:43:45. > :43:50.we think it data protection strategies in the light of some of
:43:51. > :43:56.the more publicised cases of cyber crime. Apparently, according to
:43:57. > :44:00.recent surveys some 20% of companies are simply not doing that. I think
:44:01. > :44:06.the government needs to take much more action to persuade companies to
:44:07. > :44:11.act, perhaps the Minister would also think about reviewing the
:44:12. > :44:17.legislation but I think is not fit for purpose and a longer on these
:44:18. > :44:22.matters. Well, certainly Mr Speaker this is not a case of the government
:44:23. > :44:27.simply issuing a strategy and then forgetting about it. Be constantly
:44:28. > :44:29.engaged business, with trade associations, with professional
:44:30. > :44:33.services as well. You can do a huge amount to advise the businesses who
:44:34. > :44:37.are their clients. I absolutely think what the honourable lady says
:44:38. > :44:40.in the spirit in which it was asked that we can, and should engage in
:44:41. > :44:45.which it was asked that we can, and should engaged changes in
:44:46. > :44:47.legislation which he thought was necessary and certainty that a
:44:48. > :44:54.something which you would keep under review as well. This is bigger, I
:44:55. > :44:58.suggest the home committee chairman that most of these attacks came to
:44:59. > :45:01.European Union to suggest I could blame the European Union for
:45:02. > :45:07.something more but something very unfairly in this case. On a serious
:45:08. > :45:16.point, constituents are getting calls or a parent calls and e-mails
:45:17. > :45:20.from companies saying that the cores because of the TalkTalk situation
:45:21. > :45:24.they need to do it them. So we know we are talking to the right person,
:45:25. > :45:28.and we have your address and date of birth, what does the Minister
:45:29. > :45:33.advised to my constituents? Clearly, this case has achieved a
:45:34. > :45:38.great deal of publicity. Common sense therefore tells us that people
:45:39. > :45:41.would try and somehow scam although the back of it to be my advice to
:45:42. > :45:47.his constituents would be to put the phone down and also my advice to
:45:48. > :45:49.Honorable members, if any Honorable member has any issue with any
:45:50. > :45:53.constituent regarding this case where they feel that that issue is
:45:54. > :45:58.not being taken seriously, they are welcome to contact us. I was not
:45:59. > :46:01.clear from the Minister's response to the chairman of the Senate
:46:02. > :46:04.committee whether the date that that has been stolen from TalkTalk and
:46:05. > :46:08.whether he was able to ascertain whether that was raw data or
:46:09. > :46:12.encrypted data because it is a lot of concern out there. Isn't it part
:46:13. > :46:18.of the problem here that all this information has to be given online
:46:19. > :46:20.and has no opportunity for other forms IE which was safer and then
:46:21. > :46:28.the book feel more secure in giving the state of in a way that they have
:46:29. > :46:31.copies. The honourable gentleman makes an interesting point. We noted
:46:32. > :46:34.in a Digital world and we'll see more and more companies engaging
:46:35. > :46:37.with their customers on a digital platform. Indeed, it is important to
:46:38. > :46:45.stress Mr Speaker this is customers do find convenient. All of us in his
:46:46. > :46:50.house transact with many of our organisations visited the. So, am
:46:51. > :46:52.not sure we can go backwards that respect. The challenge for
:46:53. > :46:58.government is to engage with business and to emphasise to them as
:46:59. > :47:05.he had not been shy in doing, the importance of maintaining proper
:47:06. > :47:12.cyber security. With what appears to the been an increase in frequency of
:47:13. > :47:15.cyber attacks, as my right honourable friend agree that
:47:16. > :47:19.business who handles personal data such as bank account details must
:47:20. > :47:24.not put in place copperhead the procedures to assure customers are
:47:25. > :47:30.assured immediately if their data may have been breached by cyber
:47:31. > :47:33.attacks? It is very important at all businesses have, particularly those
:47:34. > :47:38.handing significant and sensitive amounts of customer data to have
:47:39. > :47:41.robust procedures in place both to protect that data and to inform
:47:42. > :47:47.customers where they may have been a data breach. Can be meant to say
:47:48. > :47:49.whether he has had any meetings with the home office to discuss
:47:50. > :47:53.legislative changes that are required and also whether he has
:47:54. > :47:57.thought about using the direct communication skills each seems to
:47:58. > :48:03.me and I deal bill which will be coming before the House later this
:48:04. > :48:07.month my understanding? Whether that would be a matter for the home
:48:08. > :48:10.office, we do have plans to sit down with ministers are across
:48:11. > :48:14.departments to discuss any possible adjusted changes that need to be
:48:15. > :48:17.made. May still be aware that there are discussions in the European
:48:18. > :48:21.Union about updating data protection legislation, I wonder what outcomes
:48:22. > :48:27.for consumers the Minister would like to see the chance of achieving
:48:28. > :48:31.them at a second point, if anyone has lost up and result of this data
:48:32. > :48:34.protection breach, would it be TalkTalk or the bank that would be
:48:35. > :48:42.liable for Konz compensating those consumers? Study, we would be
:48:43. > :48:48.working for many years now on the data protection regulations in the
:48:49. > :48:55.European commission, it is almost on the point of being completed. It has
:48:56. > :48:59.always been a very important principle from the UK's perspective
:49:00. > :49:04.that we put the consumer and the citizens at the centre of that. That
:49:05. > :49:11.is their data and it is their right to own that data and be sure that
:49:12. > :49:14.data is used. As I said earlier, this would be a matter between the
:49:15. > :49:21.information commission office and talk talk as to any or appropriate
:49:22. > :49:25.levels of compensation. Since the election, the number of people
:49:26. > :49:32.working for the government's Beta services has declined. The placement
:49:33. > :49:38.of a chief data officer still has not been made, what impact has that
:49:39. > :49:44.had on the advice that ministers are getting from officials about data
:49:45. > :49:52.protection? And the security of online digital services in
:49:53. > :49:56.government? I thank think he is referring to the office that is
:49:57. > :50:03.responsible for an important speech on its future today. It is actually
:50:04. > :50:07.successful part of government, he can rest assured that the government
:50:08. > :50:12.takes the protection of citizens data on its own extremely seriously.
:50:13. > :50:18.I better start by declaring an interest, I am a customer for talk
:50:19. > :50:22.talk talktalk and have not been contacted by the Company either by
:50:23. > :50:27.e-mail or any other way, the question I would like to put to the
:50:28. > :50:32.Minister is have ministers considered ways by which consumers
:50:33. > :50:37.can actually assess whether the providers of any of the services
:50:38. > :50:40.have robust mechanisms in terms of cyber security in place? At the
:50:41. > :50:46.moment we are completing blindsided as consumers. I think the Honorable
:50:47. > :50:52.the Lady makes it very valuable point. In many cases it is as set
:50:53. > :50:57.out if she me detailed terms and conditions, I think the idea that
:50:58. > :51:02.those are consumer friendly would be wide of the mark. I I take as it as
:51:03. > :51:08.a worthy spirit of her questions, some kind of kite mark or way of
:51:09. > :51:12.denoting companies that have robust cyber security procedures in place
:51:13. > :51:19.would be something worth exploring. Order! Moving from the latest in
:51:20. > :51:23.data protection to a more traditional format of it, can I ask
:51:24. > :51:29.your advice on a matter concerning the Administration Committee of the
:51:30. > :51:32.House of which I served. I was late for anything on the 12th of
:51:33. > :51:36.October, I was surprised to discover that a motion had been rushed the
:51:37. > :51:41.committee in the very first few seconds of deciding to change the
:51:42. > :51:45.means by which we record act of Parliament which is been the case
:51:46. > :51:49.for a thousand years or more to paper. Mr Speaker, I was surprised I
:51:50. > :51:52.immediately read my opposition to that and said I agree with it, I was
:51:53. > :51:57.very surprised to discover this morning that when the order, reports
:51:58. > :52:01.was reduced it appears to be a unanimous decision of the committee
:52:02. > :52:05.including my name in eight. Mr Speaker am I right in thinking
:52:06. > :52:10.because the use was brought in by an order of the House, its removal
:52:11. > :52:14.would also require a vote of this house, if that is the case would
:52:15. > :52:22.that be an opportunity for me both to register Madison property? An
:52:23. > :52:27.also to try to encourage honourable member we are now going over lives
:52:28. > :52:32.to the House of Lords. Will turn to the House of Commons after the votes
:52:33. > :52:41.which is expected at about half past five, you can follow live coverage
:52:42. > :52:46.of both chambers of on our website. Instead, this is a Dailymotion, it
:52:47. > :52:51.is not as the government knows, it was drafted with the help of the
:52:52. > :52:53.clerks. It calls for a scheme of transitional protection before the
:52:54. > :53:00.House further considers this essentially, my lords the courts
:53:01. > :53:06.would apply to the new payments on the new payments only. Frankly, that
:53:07. > :53:14.could be drafted in a week. And implemented next April exactly as
:53:15. > :53:16.planned. Does it none the less my lords break prevention by
:53:17. > :53:29.trespassing on commoners financial privilege? No. The advice, can be
:53:30. > :53:34.referred by words on the specific issue as that comments financial
:53:35. > :53:38.privilege is exercised in two ways. Begin and then an education bill
:53:39. > :53:39.that the laws can reject our amendment