09/11/2015

:00:00. > :00:00.of staff who wishes to observe the two-minute silence will do so.

:00:07. > :00:11.Order! Urgent questions. Thank you Mr Speaker, will the Secretary of

:00:12. > :00:19.State to provide on set for the urgent question which I have given

:00:20. > :00:30.him notice? Thank you very much Mr Speaker. It is really great that the

:00:31. > :00:34.home Secretary cannot be with us. They are in Brussels. The government

:00:35. > :00:37.believes that police funding must be allocated on a base of a modern

:00:38. > :00:45.transport BOOING transparent formula. The current arrangements

:00:46. > :00:57.and I think that we would agree are unclear, out of date, and unless

:00:58. > :01:02.they are. National police chief, have all called for a revised model.

:01:03. > :01:16.The issue around the current formula is well known. The right honourable

:01:17. > :01:24.member agreed to review the formula, sadly it was not done. The home

:01:25. > :01:28.affairs select committee have all argued for a new formula as well.

:01:29. > :01:34.During the last Parliament Mr Speaker, my predecessor announced

:01:35. > :01:39.that the government will publish a new formula, and we went into

:01:40. > :01:43.consultation. That consultation closed in September which have not

:01:44. > :01:47.seen responses. Since then we had been working with forces around the

:01:48. > :01:53.country on the principle of how the budget can go for the. In this

:01:54. > :02:01.process, I am sad to say there was a error made on the data that has been

:02:02. > :02:06.used. It does not change the principles. It was never indicative,

:02:07. > :02:12.we recognise that this has caused a great deal of concern for police

:02:13. > :02:17.across the country. I regret this mistake and I apologise to the

:02:18. > :02:20.house. I also apologise to the 43 authorities that I wrote to during

:02:21. > :02:28.the extended consultation period as part of the review. Mr Speaker,

:02:29. > :02:33.because it is for other reasons, the government was to delay the changes

:02:34. > :02:45.for 2016 and 2017 as we have previously intended. It is essential

:02:46. > :02:48.that we come to a fair formula that is transparent and mastered by

:02:49. > :02:54.demand and is supported by the police. So, the government will

:02:55. > :02:59.continue to listen and consider the next steps in conjunction with the

:03:00. > :03:07.police leaders. I will update the house in due course. The perform of

:03:08. > :03:13.the police funding is something that we should all support. We will bring

:03:14. > :03:19.it forward, but we are delaying the process at the present time. Thank

:03:20. > :03:23.you Mr Speaker, can I thank you for granting the question and I think

:03:24. > :03:28.the Minister for his answer. I would like to commend the Minister to be

:03:29. > :03:33.the first policing minister in years to tackle the issue of police

:03:34. > :03:35.funding was needed to be addressed. Last week the home affairs select

:03:36. > :03:42.committee took evidence on the formula. The newly received was

:03:43. > :03:47.damning. Last Wednesday, 34 members of this house took part in a debate

:03:48. > :03:53.on this subject based on the old criteria. Last Friday in a letter to

:03:54. > :03:56.the police crime commissioner, the home office admitted that the

:03:57. > :04:02.proposed funding for Miller was based on the wrong data. According

:04:03. > :04:05.to the previous formula, two thirds of the police forces would have

:04:06. > :04:14.gained from the proposals and a Florida would have lost from it. Now

:04:15. > :04:18.41 forces will lose out. Now they will lose out again. The

:04:19. > :04:23.Metropolitan police were expecting to lose a but it appears they are

:04:24. > :04:31.now set to gain or possibly lose a different amount. Another was set to

:04:32. > :04:36.lose the 700,000 by last week but they are now set to lose to play 4

:04:37. > :04:42.million. This entire process has been described as police and crime

:04:43. > :04:45.commissioners and others as unfair, unjust, and flawed. What started off

:04:46. > :04:57.with good intentions is rapidly descending into... To call it a

:04:58. > :05:01.shambles will be charitable. There are people who are taking the

:05:02. > :05:05.government to court. Ditto what has happened, will the Minister agree to

:05:06. > :05:15.a number of suggestions? -- given what has happened. Police forces and

:05:16. > :05:21.others have spent a inordinate amount of time and effort on this

:05:22. > :05:28.subject. I support the delay. But will he go one step forward and

:05:29. > :05:32.establish a panel consisting of experts who understand the

:05:33. > :05:40.importance of sharing data and are more competent of understanding

:05:41. > :05:45.mathematics and can count. This is a defining moment for policing. Last

:05:46. > :05:49.week in the dispatch box, he said that he was proud to be the Minister

:05:50. > :05:55.of responsibility for the best police force in the world. Now it is

:05:56. > :05:59.his chance to show it by engaging with the police service. This

:06:00. > :06:03.formula will last a long time, if the pending formula is to last as

:06:04. > :06:15.long as the other formula that it must be there just and workable. Mr

:06:16. > :06:21.Speaker, it seems to be very popular in parts of the United Kingdom. What

:06:22. > :06:27.I would want to do is to make sure that the house is aware of the many

:06:28. > :06:39.things that the honourable gentleman has been. -- has said. I've listen

:06:40. > :06:48.carefully at the evidence, not everybody was unhappy, but on the

:06:49. > :06:53.basis of what I have said today, we will listen carefully, get it right,

:06:54. > :07:00.and make sure that the mathematics is right so that I am not in this

:07:01. > :07:03.embarrassing situation again. The right honourable gentleman, my

:07:04. > :07:12.parliamentary neighbour who initiated this urgent question, were

:07:13. > :07:18.met by the Minister not too long ago when we discussed this question. Can

:07:19. > :07:24.my honourable friend tell the house how he would describe a fairness,

:07:25. > :07:28.and how he would describe the schedule, the time schedule of this

:07:29. > :07:37.new process. It is very important that police and crime commissioners,

:07:38. > :07:43.note quite the context in which they will be setting their budgets in the

:07:44. > :07:48.spring. Can I thank my honourable friend for his comments. It was a

:07:49. > :07:53.good meeting and I'd promised to listen. I hope that in the response

:07:54. > :07:59.that I'm given today, it shows that we have listened. The formula for

:08:00. > :08:03.2016 and 2017 will be based on the existing formula. There will be a

:08:04. > :08:07.lot of work, and a lot of listening and understanding as to what the

:08:08. > :08:11.demand are, to get us out of these difficult financial situation and we

:08:12. > :08:20.are in a cell that we will think it is fair and that we will not be in

:08:21. > :08:24.the position that we are in today. Mr Speaker, the first thing that the

:08:25. > :08:30.Minister should do is apologise to the police service for a shambles

:08:31. > :08:39.process replacing and unfair for Miller with another. Withholding

:08:40. > :08:48.vital information, then publishing the wrong information. Can I ask him

:08:49. > :08:53.to go one step further, last Wednesday he dismissed all concerns

:08:54. > :08:58.over his new funding formula. 48 hours later it was revealed that he

:08:59. > :09:04.got it wrong and published the wrong data, with funding allocations

:09:05. > :09:09.gearing up to 181 million up to 31 losers. When did he know that? What

:09:10. > :09:16.did he know, and when did he know what? Mr Speaker, a conservative PCC

:09:17. > :09:23.summed it up on behalf of the police service. We have lost all trust of

:09:24. > :09:31.the process. Can I therefore say to the policing minister that he should

:09:32. > :09:36.abandon the process, which he has agreed to do. As opposed by the

:09:37. > :09:43.police and crime ministers, to start fresh, which I hope he has agreed to

:09:44. > :09:49.do. Act in a open and transparent way and published all data and to be

:09:50. > :09:54.overseen by and independent garden party, perhaps the national audit

:09:55. > :09:58.office whistles are no longer confident in the home office. The

:09:59. > :10:03.third and final apology that he should give as to the public. The

:10:04. > :10:10.first duty of any government is the safety and security of their people.

:10:11. > :10:13.They expected to act accordingly when it comes to the country and

:10:14. > :10:19.policemen. This would be laughable if it was not so serious. I say with

:10:20. > :10:26.in all sincerity to the police minister and the home Secretary get

:10:27. > :10:37.a grip and get it right! I think the house will be disappointed in the

:10:38. > :10:40.told. -- I was informed on Friday, this is the first opportunity that I

:10:41. > :10:52.have had to inform the house of the situation. At the end of the day, I

:10:53. > :10:58.was not told, the first I knew was Friday. We will make sure as the

:10:59. > :11:05.goal for the Mr Speaker, that we have a fair process. That is only

:11:06. > :11:13.fair. I have apologised, and I will do so if necessary. But I do not

:11:14. > :11:19.apologise on his attitude because I feel that he got it wrong anyway. I

:11:20. > :11:24.want to congratulate Tony Hawk and his team for uncovering this terror.

:11:25. > :11:29.Would the Minister confirmed to my constituents and all those that

:11:30. > :11:34.reviewing this situation he should also take full account for the

:11:35. > :11:47.impact of role policing and the impact of tourism for policing

:11:48. > :11:56.caused? -- cost by Mac Mr Speaker, I apologise. The decisions as to

:11:57. > :12:04.Wirral and other measures in the formula is exactly what we were

:12:05. > :12:07.trying to do. -- rural. It was much of the rural constituencies that

:12:08. > :12:15.were upset with the formula. Will get it right. Late last week the

:12:16. > :12:20.police commissioner and the chief of police informed me that the

:12:21. > :12:37.settlement was very good. 48 hours later, they were told that the whole

:12:38. > :12:43.thing was wrong. Now they have lost a ?13.1 million. Is there any

:12:44. > :12:47.occasion when in this government, this Tory government, ministers

:12:48. > :12:58.consider resigning because of it all mighty mass of that they have taken

:12:59. > :13:06.part in? Firstly can I congratulate on the reduction of crime. They have

:13:07. > :13:12.not lost anything because it wasn't indicative proposal, no money was

:13:13. > :13:19.allocated. And as usual of the honourable to them and get it wrong

:13:20. > :13:25.again. -- as usual the honourable Guzman gets it wrong again. There

:13:26. > :13:30.was some ?2 million under the formula. Now there is about ?10

:13:31. > :13:35.million. Does my honourable friend agree that although the force will

:13:36. > :13:43.appreciate the frank apology that he has given, what it now requires is

:13:44. > :13:49.some form of reassurance that whatever they will get it would be

:13:50. > :13:53.given with sensitivity? I am always conscious of the morale of the

:13:54. > :13:57.officers, that is why I say that I am proud to be the police minister

:13:58. > :14:02.of the best police force in the world. Can I say to mind right

:14:03. > :14:07.honourable friend that no money has gone missing from North Wales, it

:14:08. > :14:11.was in indicative proposal and no money was likely to go until the

:14:12. > :14:15.decision was made. The existing formula will continue for the extra

:14:16. > :14:28.year while we do the rest of the proposal. The police force has

:14:29. > :14:33.suffered drastically because of the cuts that have occurred. Debates

:14:34. > :14:41.have been held over the West Midlands position. He has previously

:14:42. > :14:45.accepted, I believe the unfairness of what occurred because of the

:14:46. > :14:51.previous formula, would he bear all of this in mind and let us hope it

:14:52. > :14:59.will be a fair settlement for the West Midlands police force? Mr

:15:00. > :15:02.Speaker, usually when the honourable Guzman stands I disagree with most

:15:03. > :15:10.of things he said. This time I will not. I think it needs to be fair and

:15:11. > :15:18.we will delay the process of that we can get it right. Could my right

:15:19. > :15:24.honourable friend confirmed that he will carry on meeting with all of

:15:25. > :15:33.the lecture MPs to find a fair settlement for them? Can I

:15:34. > :15:37.congratulate all of the MPs for the consideration of meeting with me and

:15:38. > :15:41.all parties listening to what we were proposing. They came forward

:15:42. > :15:48.with their own ideas which also helped with the decision that we

:15:49. > :15:53.have made to delay the process. The Commissioner will be taking 1.3

:15:54. > :15:58.billion out of the Metropolitan police budget. Can administer now

:15:59. > :16:02.the left how much they need to save or keep, and what bearing that has

:16:03. > :16:09.all the amount that he has made today in the context of the

:16:10. > :16:13.borrowing and here in London? That is a matter for the Commissioner, he

:16:14. > :16:19.is the elected commissioner and we will wait for his proposal on what

:16:20. > :16:24.he decides. However, no decision is made, it has not been announced, the

:16:25. > :16:29.funding formula will be announced in December. That is what I announced a

:16:30. > :16:35.few minutes ago. Thank you very much Mr Speaker. May I welcomed the

:16:36. > :16:44.statement that this process that it will be delayed, and thank him that

:16:45. > :16:47.they have engaged colleagues. Is it not the case that while there are

:16:48. > :16:53.problems with the existing formula, it will always be difficult to

:16:54. > :16:55.adjust between different forces in and environment were spending

:16:56. > :16:59.reductions are being found by force is already which will mean that some

:17:00. > :17:06.forces will have to face double cut. Does that not therefore argue that

:17:07. > :17:14.there will be a Synod delays? I think we need to sit down now that

:17:15. > :17:21.we have made decisions. What was quite clear, is that we needed to

:17:22. > :17:28.make a decision to pause so that we get it right and that is the

:17:29. > :17:35.important thing. Mr Speaker, is he aware of the amount of time and

:17:36. > :17:41.effort that was wasted in the summer. They were due to lose 24.9

:17:42. > :17:48.million the biggest loser in percentage terms. Is the problem for

:17:49. > :17:51.this shambles is because he did not provide the lead to the police and

:17:52. > :17:57.crime Commissioner so that they could dissect it and that we can

:17:58. > :18:02.have a debate about it? I had a very good meeting with the MPs, I thought

:18:03. > :18:06.it was a good meeting. We listened and listen carefully. The reason for

:18:07. > :18:11.the problem here is that data was not transferred across. It was a

:18:12. > :18:14.statistical error and the Department. Mode is the

:18:15. > :18:22.responsibility to pay that I am responsible for that and that is the

:18:23. > :18:28.way it should be? And I commend my honourable friend for coming to the

:18:29. > :18:32.house and giving and apology. Would we met London MPs and they

:18:33. > :18:38.complained about the previous formula and that there were some

:18:39. > :18:43.things that London undertakes. Can he get a guarantee that he will be

:18:44. > :18:52.transparent and recognise the demand for those events and the London

:18:53. > :18:58.settlement? London is one of the greatest in the world. It has

:18:59. > :19:02.particular policing issues which have to be addressed. One of the

:19:03. > :19:07.reasons we are positing is to make sure, absolutely sure, that all the

:19:08. > :19:12.different of funding are done correctly and that they have the

:19:13. > :19:22.resources that they need. Thank you Mr Speaker. They sent a letter on

:19:23. > :19:25.Thursday. Is the Minister on a sleep telling us that he was not made

:19:26. > :19:34.aware of the contents of the letter until Friday? Order! Order! I can

:19:35. > :19:39.entirely understand the rational of what the honourable Lady is

:19:40. > :19:44.inquiring. Can I say that I should not -- no one should insert the word

:19:45. > :19:50.honestly into any questions. The assumption has to be that every

:19:51. > :19:59.member in this house is always on the. We did not accuse each other of

:20:00. > :20:04.honesty or make it seem as much. I think it is useful to new members to

:20:05. > :20:08.get to grips of the new procedures. That and recognising that the debate

:20:09. > :20:13.goes to the chair, therefore we do not use the word you and so on. I

:20:14. > :20:30.hope that is regarded as hell. The minister. -- I hold that is regarded

:20:31. > :20:34.as well. Thank you Mr Speaker. Can I commend my right honourable friend

:20:35. > :20:41.for halting the process of. Can I also put in a plea for the police

:20:42. > :20:55.who had been at the lowest end of the funding for many years. Mr

:20:56. > :20:58.Speaker, one advantage of being here today and making the statement that

:20:59. > :21:03.I have made is starting the process again and everybody will not sleep

:21:04. > :21:11.the put in the place, and my honourable friend has done very

:21:12. > :21:14.well. The minister said that he hoped the West Midlands will be

:21:15. > :21:20.treated unfairly, is he aware that under the existing funding formula

:21:21. > :21:27.he is maintaining, the West Midlands have been hit very hard with cuts

:21:28. > :21:32.over 100 years. What is he going to do over the next period via he has

:21:33. > :21:40.been paused to ensure that they will not be hit again? What is he going

:21:41. > :21:48.to say to the Chancellor to ensure that police forces are treated

:21:49. > :21:53.fairly? The reason that we are tangibly funding is to get a fairer

:21:54. > :22:08.and lesser paid system. -- left Opec. The form below will be in

:22:09. > :22:13.place for another year. -- formula. Can I think my honourable friend for

:22:14. > :22:18.his integrity and honesty and responding the way that he has. When

:22:19. > :22:24.he comes to contemplate the future funding, what he make sure that not

:22:25. > :22:29.only the money is considered carefully but the freedoms that

:22:30. > :22:37.exist for small rural forces to work with other forces nearby. Mr

:22:38. > :22:41.Speaker, my honourable friend makes and important point, alongside the

:22:42. > :22:45.funding from the review was the capability review which is being run

:22:46. > :22:49.by the chief. Some of it will be done by the cheese and some of it

:22:50. > :22:54.will be done by the Regents. As I have always said, we can often do

:22:55. > :23:00.things better if we do it together. I think folks should listen to

:23:01. > :23:06.that. I welcomed the ministers apology today. How can my

:23:07. > :23:08.constituents and my police and crime commissioners have any confidence

:23:09. > :23:19.that when the home office undertake this formula, in a and 2017 that the

:23:20. > :23:27.Minister will get it right this time -- 2016. I think we'll make sure

:23:28. > :23:32.that the formula is looking very carefully. We'll be looking at

:23:33. > :23:40.recommendations as well. What ever happens, this formula will change so

:23:41. > :23:45.that it is fair for everybody. Thank you Mr Speaker, can I congratulate

:23:46. > :23:48.my right honourable friend the Minister for instigating the police

:23:49. > :23:57.funding formula review, something that of course was promised by the

:23:58. > :24:01.party opposite, but never delivered. In positing this process in which is

:24:02. > :24:09.in inevitability cannot urge them not to wait too long, because many

:24:10. > :24:17.of those in sparsely populated communities have felt seen off for

:24:18. > :24:21.many years. They would like to see the formula amended in a transparent

:24:22. > :24:27.and opaque way and and hopefully a way that will restore the balance

:24:28. > :24:31.that they see and police funding. Mr Speaker, one of the reasons why this

:24:32. > :24:34.funding for global is not changed by the previous administration or any

:24:35. > :24:39.administration is because it is so damn difficult. I know that it is

:24:40. > :24:44.not parliamentary language but it is true. The fact that it was hard was

:24:45. > :24:48.not in excuse not to do it but we do need to get it right.

:24:49. > :24:54.Can I welcome the Minister's statement today but he must realise

:24:55. > :24:58.the buck stops with him not official. I find it remarkable that

:24:59. > :25:02.it took 24 hours for him to know about this problem though his

:25:03. > :25:08.officials did not tell him. Does he not realise now that the police and

:25:09. > :25:12.police commissioners and the police family that the home office has lost

:25:13. > :25:18.all credibility on this process? It is not about having time to take

:25:19. > :25:22.questions from the select committee chair and have independent oversight

:25:23. > :25:26.of this process. I do not accept that the whole police family has no

:25:27. > :25:29.faith in the home office or in the. He's absolutely right to say that in

:25:30. > :25:33.minister oversight I am as possible which is why I have not blamed and

:25:34. > :25:36.individual civil servant or any department at the end of the day it

:25:37. > :25:45.is my wrist bones ability which is why I am standing here. I warmly

:25:46. > :25:49.welcome my right of friend's approach today in his apology to the

:25:50. > :25:54.House. Is characteristic of the trans parent way he has approached

:25:55. > :25:56.this entire settlement. When he brought back characteristic

:25:57. > :26:02.transparency to the meeting of cross party meeting between Lancashire

:26:03. > :26:04.MPs, we were hoping that Lancashire would see a fairer formula. It

:26:05. > :26:09.cannot be right when budgets are going up in some budgets are going

:26:10. > :26:14.down that the formula is fair. Every police force should be equally

:26:15. > :26:18.measurable across the country. Can I thank my honourable friend for his

:26:19. > :26:22.comment. It was a really good meeting we had any deputy speaker's

:26:23. > :26:26.office. I promise to listen and I will continue to listen. At the end

:26:27. > :26:29.of the day there will be winners and losers with any change of any

:26:30. > :26:35.funding formula which is why some of the forces that are going to do very

:26:36. > :26:38.well seemed to be quite quiet with the home affairs select committee

:26:39. > :26:42.but on the other hand I understand exactly where they're coming from. A

:26:43. > :26:46.good many colleagues are still seeking to catch my eye and I'm to

:26:47. > :26:49.accommodate all of them to have any realistic aspect of succeeding in

:26:50. > :26:54.doing so without jeopardising the square business will require brevity

:26:55. > :26:57.both from back benches and from the Minister. We can look for the

:26:58. > :27:03.provision of a textbook to a distinct former minister Mr David

:27:04. > :27:07.Hansen. Can I thank the Minister for the named check it is complicated,

:27:08. > :27:11.but the fact is North Wales police are still now went to be ?10.5

:27:12. > :27:14.million were planning assumptions left than they thought they were

:27:15. > :27:17.going to be. How can the Minister give confidence to North Wells

:27:18. > :27:27.police about the shortfalls of the have. I have not announced the 16-17

:27:28. > :27:29.budget. It will be in December. The honourable gentleman knows as a

:27:30. > :27:35.former colleague in this department that we have to wait for the formula

:27:36. > :27:39.and decision in December. Can I thank my right on over and for his

:27:40. > :27:43.candour during the course of today? And I also encourage them to work

:27:44. > :27:48.with the police crime commissioners to ensure that their efficiencies

:27:49. > :27:51.can be made to bring ensure that they are being changed in different

:27:52. > :27:55.ways. There are more efficiencies that can be done without affecting

:27:56. > :27:58.front-line policing and some of the technology coming through is going

:27:59. > :28:03.to aid from I'm policing not least body worn video cameras but I intend

:28:04. > :28:05.to work with all the 43 police and crime commissioners and the chief

:28:06. > :28:15.constables and in particular Devon and Cornwall as they have been very

:28:16. > :28:24.good set statisticians. Residents are already... Those living in large

:28:25. > :28:27.urban areas and in doing. Woody ensure the new Lamela takes into

:28:28. > :28:34.consideration the extra cost of two thirds of Wales especially the extra

:28:35. > :28:43.infrastructure required to ensure an emergency response that is effective

:28:44. > :28:51.as? That is exactly what we will do. As one of the Lancashire MPs

:28:52. > :28:56.that was very appreciative of the Minister's meeting we had a few

:28:57. > :28:59.weeks ago, can the Minister assure us that when Mike is being

:29:00. > :29:05.considered that we will not as my honourable friend from Braswell said

:29:06. > :29:07.the a loser in this process. As someone who has direct first-line

:29:08. > :29:14.experience cannot also think him for the open and honest way he has

:29:15. > :29:19.approached this process with all of us? I sometimes get myself in

:29:20. > :29:21.trouble year for being too honest and forthright so thank you very

:29:22. > :29:25.much to my honourable friend for those comment. I cannot promise

:29:26. > :29:30.anything as we start a new process, but what we will do is make sure

:29:31. > :29:33.that I sit with all of the constituencies and all of the forces

:29:34. > :29:37.to make sure we get the best possible we can with the modern

:29:38. > :29:44.formula as I say that will be suspended for a year. Thank you Mr

:29:45. > :29:48.Speaker. Derma was last month ranked the highest performing force in the

:29:49. > :29:57.country. Is very worrying that there might be a ?10 million cut. At the

:29:58. > :30:00.Minister is plain whether the delay means that there'll be cuts in the

:30:01. > :30:04.Autumn Statement followed by further cuts an 18 months' time. The purpose

:30:05. > :30:10.of standing here making a statement is saying that Durham would have had

:30:11. > :30:14.with the no formula won't happen because actually they're going to

:30:15. > :30:20.stick with their original formula. We will have to wait for the Autumn

:30:21. > :30:24.Statement, Mr Speaker. The Minister will be aware that North Yorkshire

:30:25. > :30:28.is the largest policing area in England. The force currently gave

:30:29. > :30:33.approximately ?8 million in the current formula for its Brownlie.

:30:34. > :30:39.Can the Minister assure me that police and crime Commissioner who

:30:40. > :30:41.did a fantastic job, will be properly consulted and listened to

:30:42. > :30:48.during this welcome extended Ross says? Can I play tribute to North

:30:49. > :30:54.Yorkshire and I understand fully the pressures they are. One of the

:30:55. > :30:58.reasons I got into this situation if I was working with 43 police and

:30:59. > :31:02.crime commissioners and they were telling me exactly what is going on

:31:03. > :31:06.but I will continue to do that. I am sure the Minister will join me in

:31:07. > :31:11.congratulating derma believed on being designated the most

:31:12. > :31:15.outstanding police force by her Majesty's inspector but does the

:31:16. > :31:18.Minister realise his wife formula means we will have to face an

:31:19. > :31:28.additional ?10 million and cut. If that happens, it is a reduction in

:31:29. > :31:33.police numbers from 1720 ten to 850 and 2020. Out did he expect Durham

:31:34. > :31:36.police to continue believing? Can I respectfully digested go back to the

:31:37. > :31:44.drawing board, recalibrated formula and come up with something that

:31:45. > :31:47.makes sense? I have tried to be very careful in not responding to be bold

:31:48. > :31:53.that probably were not listening to my statement. I have suspended it,

:31:54. > :32:02.there am like the other 242 forces will work together for a new

:32:03. > :32:06.formula. It is suspended. Thank you Mr Speaker. I congratulate I right

:32:07. > :32:16.honourable friend on real looking at this issue. And well he commit to

:32:17. > :32:19.speaking with Katie, the excellent police and crime Commissioner for

:32:20. > :32:24.Sussex where crime has reduced when the new formula discussions take

:32:25. > :32:29.place? Mr Speaker not only will I commit to speaking with the

:32:30. > :32:37.excellent police and crime Commissioner, I left her 15 minutes

:32:38. > :32:46.ago. LAUGHTER Mr Speaker what the Minister gave a

:32:47. > :32:50.commitment to give due consideration to metropolitan district across the

:32:51. > :32:55.board cuts have an absolutely devastating effect on authority that

:32:56. > :33:04.Merseyside and other metropolitan district. We would have to make a

:33:05. > :33:14.24.9% increase to make that up, the cut. We collect about .5 million, it

:33:15. > :33:17.has a different impact because of lower tax rates. Could you please

:33:18. > :33:28.give due consideration to that when we -- reconsidering? One of the

:33:29. > :33:31.issues raised consistently is the present issue. That is not in my

:33:32. > :33:36.hands, it is part of what we look at when we are doing the formula as we

:33:37. > :33:42.go forward. Can I say, Mr Speaker, the precept does in some parts of

:33:43. > :33:45.the country won a substantial part of the funding where in others it

:33:46. > :33:55.does not. I promise I will keep a look on not. -- on that. I

:33:56. > :34:00.congratulate my honourable Frank and I recognisably his commitment across

:34:01. > :34:04.the country of attacking crime. Could you confirm to the House that

:34:05. > :34:08.there'll be a very clear communication plan that will be said

:34:09. > :34:12.to all the police forces and Cheshire police quite through as to

:34:13. > :34:17.where milestones that will be required of them to finalise this

:34:18. > :34:23.formula in months ahead for once and for all. We have time to look at

:34:24. > :34:28.making sure that we consult across the board, making sure we work both

:34:29. > :34:31.leak. In my statement I specifically said that we need to get agreement

:34:32. > :34:40.from the cheese and the best League PVCs to make sure this will work --

:34:41. > :34:47.she's in the police commissioners. Endeavour sure we have faced the

:34:48. > :34:51.fourth highest on crime, the fifth four burglary and seven and nine for

:34:52. > :34:56.real threat from extremism. We have urban challenges but are funded

:34:57. > :34:59.today as a rural forest. Even H MIC having knowledge that historic

:35:00. > :35:03.underfunding has been a major issue for the forest. Under the new

:35:04. > :35:07.figures or the old, Bedfordshire Hartley gained. Doesn't common sense

:35:08. > :35:12.dictate there with a plot without formula on that basis and will it be

:35:13. > :35:17.corrected? Can I fix my promontory neighbour, of course I know this

:35:18. > :35:21.from it ageing the well even though it is not my County I am very

:35:22. > :35:24.conscious of the pressures of Bedfordshire from the policing angle

:35:25. > :35:31.and it is something we will make sure we look at going forward even

:35:32. > :35:34.in more detail. Can I also congratulate my right of a friend

:35:35. > :35:40.for his statement which he delivered with characteristic clarity and

:35:41. > :35:48.integrity. Is the Minister agree with me that larger urban forces

:35:49. > :35:51.such as Hampshire police deserve a revised funding formula so they can

:35:52. > :36:00.be funded on the basis of need as well? At this date I cannot comment

:36:01. > :36:03.on exactly how Hampshire is going to be funded or all they will get in

:36:04. > :36:09.December. Can I congratulate Hampshire not only on their

:36:10. > :36:12.excellent MPs but in my year extensively over the last few weeks

:36:13. > :36:17.but also on board thinking and working with other emergency

:36:18. > :36:24.services brilliantly well some of what other forces can look out

:36:25. > :36:28.across the country. I welcome the Minister's apology and also his

:36:29. > :36:32.decision to suspend the formula while the correct figures are

:36:33. > :36:37.calculated copy even the scale of the error and given that last week

:36:38. > :36:41.Lancashire was due to lose 25 million, today we're due to gained

:36:42. > :36:46.16 million. Does he not knowledge that Lancashire was right to

:36:47. > :36:52.maintain reserves to plan prudently for the future. I think I agree with

:36:53. > :36:56.most of what the honourable Lady said but I do think it is an issue

:36:57. > :37:08.that in the 43 authorities we have in England and Wales there are

:37:09. > :37:09.reserves of ?2.1 billion. Mr Speaker, Northamptonshire has been

:37:10. > :37:14.historically underfunded but despite that we have seen many innovative

:37:15. > :37:18.new policing model come forward in the county. Will be minister commit

:37:19. > :37:24.despite the delay to continue to provide funding for innovative new

:37:25. > :37:28.models to come forward with? Verdana Mr is one of the most forward

:37:29. > :37:34.thinking forces in the country and the work -- Northamptonshire, and

:37:35. > :37:38.the work they're doing is significant. The police innovation

:37:39. > :37:43.fund is exactly what my honourable friend is alluding to and that is

:37:44. > :37:46.what the money is for. I hope that the Minister said about suspension

:37:47. > :37:51.but under this error that will sleep would've had the fourth highest loss

:37:52. > :37:55.across the UK of 15.5 million and it comes on top of the fact that

:37:56. > :37:58.Cardiff already does not receive the same treatment as London, Belfast

:37:59. > :38:02.and Edinburgh in support of its situation as a capital city. It but

:38:03. > :38:08.that delete that particular towns it bases. Will be address that concern

:38:09. > :38:11.that Cardiff is not getting the support for its policing that other

:38:12. > :38:17.capitals are getting across the UK? Of course that is part of the review

:38:18. > :38:20.that we will make sure and look carefully at what the honourable

:38:21. > :38:26.gentleman has said. I have not of course you have not lost anything

:38:27. > :38:35.because I have suspended the review. The news that the formula

:38:36. > :38:39.was ungenerous to Derbyshire... Canada urge the Minister to stick to

:38:40. > :38:48.his guns and pressed ahead and get a new formula as soon as possible? So

:38:49. > :38:54.many experts outside and inside this house. I really do believe that we

:38:55. > :38:58.need a new funding formula. That and I think we have a cross party

:38:59. > :39:01.agreement and that is what we need to do. I did say there'll be winners

:39:02. > :39:08.and losers and I apologise to Derbyshire for the delay. The police

:39:09. > :39:11.and crime commissioners and two constables have made it clear that

:39:12. > :39:16.budget cuts delivered to any revised form duly that formula will

:39:17. > :39:20.fundamentally change policing? What is the vision and strategy for this

:39:21. > :39:23.fundamentally change policing landscape and how will this

:39:24. > :39:26.incorporate a possible loss of between five and 8000 police

:39:27. > :39:32.officers in London and the possible loss of 1000 community support

:39:33. > :39:39.officers with white Mr Speaker the --? That was based on where the

:39:40. > :39:43.formula was not where my announcements are today. Policing is

:39:44. > :39:51.changing and so is crime. That is something that we all will have to

:39:52. > :39:55.address and understand. The likelihood of... While he is asleep

:39:56. > :40:01.in bed and on this computer not while he is up around his house. I

:40:02. > :40:04.commence my right on over and for responding to the urgent question

:40:05. > :40:07.with his apology and he is right of course to say that the buck stops

:40:08. > :40:12.with him, but I have heard from the exchanges today that the error but

:40:13. > :40:15.discovered by one of the police authorities and therefore I'm

:40:16. > :40:19.concerned agent that the error was made by the department at the first

:40:20. > :40:24.place and be that the department did not uncover the error itself. This

:40:25. > :40:29.has wider implications for the protocols used by the civil service

:40:30. > :40:32.on all these funding formulas across the government. Will my right

:40:33. > :40:35.honourable friend make sure that the lessons he is learning from this are

:40:36. > :40:39.extended to other departments including education, health and all

:40:40. > :40:48.the others with local funding formula was? We must make sure there

:40:49. > :40:55.is confident in the did parchment, particularly the two I represent.

:40:56. > :40:59.We're meeting with the secretary tomorrow. The Minister will be aware

:41:00. > :41:02.that population growth creates challenges for the police, violent

:41:03. > :41:09.crime which I represent has increased by it 18.5% over the last

:41:10. > :41:14.year in my constituency. Will he in reexam using this formula not only

:41:15. > :41:18.worked in an absolutely transparent way, because that is what is

:41:19. > :41:23.critical to trust in policing by consent, and perhaps the digestion

:41:24. > :41:27.made by my right on about friend, the chair of the select committee

:41:28. > :41:31.but also take into account the account is created in the areas of

:41:32. > :41:36.high population growth? One of the reasons we need a new or new age

:41:37. > :41:39.because of the high population growth in the honourable lady's

:41:40. > :41:47.constituency. That is why the formula needed to be changed and

:41:48. > :41:53.because it was outdated. Can I join my honourable friend in thinking my

:41:54. > :41:56.right on the offering for meeting with Lancashire MPs on a cross party

:41:57. > :42:00.basis to discuss this issue allowing us to scrutinize in detail the

:42:01. > :42:04.predicted changes and consequences and look at the formula in detail on

:42:05. > :42:09.our police and crime commissioners who had confused us with much wider

:42:10. > :42:13.issues over Belize cuts. He mentioned the meeting with a and the

:42:14. > :42:17.ideas we submitted during that meeting. Kenny confirm those ideas

:42:18. > :42:22.cannot be fully considered and incorporated following the delay he

:42:23. > :42:25.had announced today? Fortunately the idea that came from the cross party

:42:26. > :42:31.group did come in before the end of the consultations were part of the

:42:32. > :42:33.consultation. Like the evidence that the home affairs select committee

:42:34. > :42:37.and other things that have come forward that is part of the reason

:42:38. > :42:41.why he we have delayed the data, misuse of the data clearly in the

:42:42. > :42:44.wrong place is what the catalyst that created the situation but we

:42:45. > :42:50.were arty listening and I think it is the best way to go forward. The

:42:51. > :42:56.Minister will know that as it stands West Midlands police could lose 20

:42:57. > :43:00.million of his indicative budget. Can you give us an insurance today

:43:01. > :43:04.that nothing on that scale will actually occur was not will anyone

:43:05. > :43:10.be held responsible for the blunder and the delay in informing the

:43:11. > :43:15.Minister wore our officials like ministers increasingly immune from

:43:16. > :43:23.responsibility for their actions was ? I take for stock ability and am

:43:24. > :43:26.fully responsibility for my actions. I cannot comment on what will happen

:43:27. > :43:29.and what will be the announcement in December which will be based on an

:43:30. > :43:33.existing one in formula and we will have to wait and see for the Autumn

:43:34. > :43:39.Statement -- existing funding formula. The House needed an apology

:43:40. > :43:42.for the statistical errors by the home office and we had one. Without

:43:43. > :43:46.reservation from the Minister and we should welcome mat. What matters

:43:47. > :43:50.more to me, is that when the result of the spending review are announced

:43:51. > :43:54.in December is that forces like the Gloucestershire cause the very will

:43:55. > :43:58.still have the resources they need to tackle serious crimes like drugs

:43:59. > :44:01.and knives and very sad death resulting from both. Could my write

:44:02. > :44:09.on over and give my constituents that assurance? He has done

:44:10. > :44:14.fantastically well. It was a statistical error which has made me

:44:15. > :44:18.make the decision that we came to today, but the reason for the change

:44:19. > :44:22.in the formula was actually to adjust the anomalies we have heard

:44:23. > :44:25.across the House today as how unfair the existing formula is. Is still

:44:26. > :44:30.needs to be changed and we need to push some of that. With the two

:44:31. > :44:39.constables in the PC sees copy -- the chief constables. What we have

:44:40. > :44:43.heard today without there was not only in error in the formula but

:44:44. > :44:45.also the home office. It seems a letter was sent on Thursday without

:44:46. > :44:49.the Minister was not informed about until Friday which I think we all

:44:50. > :44:54.agreed is unacceptable. Given the damage to the home office's

:44:55. > :44:58.credibility, will he take the suggestions made by many that

:44:59. > :45:04.they're now needs to be independent brought to the consultation process.

:45:05. > :45:08.Clear simple answer please? Have already said when we do this the

:45:09. > :45:14.typical analysis we will look were independent guidance on that to make

:45:15. > :45:17.sure... That it's important. It will be as open as possible. It that is

:45:18. > :45:21.not that is not that in the government do it when they were and

:45:22. > :45:31.power for 13 years? We're doing it. They did not. And number of

:45:32. > :45:34.inconsistencies with the process but the Minister has always ideas and

:45:35. > :45:37.listening and continued to show that very much at the dispatch box and I

:45:38. > :45:41.welcome the decision he made. Will he made. Willie also be consistent

:45:42. > :45:46.to see into that with the recognition of London as the capital

:45:47. > :45:49.city which must need a laugh as to the capital city find reflecting it

:45:50. > :45:59.as a national hub for policing and criminality? Mr Speaker as I alluded

:46:00. > :46:03.to this great capital that we are in today, that it needs and be funding

:46:04. > :46:12.will rapidly that and will make sure that continues to so. This episode

:46:13. > :46:15.raises serious concerns regarding the efficacy of the verification and

:46:16. > :46:19.validation process and particularly in relation to the Minister not

:46:20. > :46:24.being aware of that. Further into the statements that have been made,

:46:25. > :46:27.with regard to that specific issue, but will the Minister be doing to

:46:28. > :46:31.ensure that there is some independence and robustness and

:46:32. > :46:39.credibility in the verification and validation process? On the first

:46:40. > :46:41.point as I said earlier that I met with the secretary this morning and

:46:42. > :46:45.we will be meeting with the home secretary went to returns tomorrow

:46:46. > :46:53.to find out exactly what goes on in inquiries will continue. 12.8

:46:54. > :46:56.million from the wind police would not be a cut, it would be an act of

:46:57. > :47:03.butchery that would previously damage the fine work of the coin

:47:04. > :47:05.force which has recently seen an increase in violent crimes copy I

:47:06. > :47:11.think we all admire the breathtaking lives but of the Minister who seeks

:47:12. > :47:14.to shift the blame to the last Labour government of my honourable

:47:15. > :47:19.friend on the front bench. Good you give us a clear account in language

:47:20. > :47:25.we all understand how this was made so we can measure the inner top with

:47:26. > :47:32.the that the home office has been found? I would like to welcome a

:47:33. > :47:37.better question but clearly not. I was not passing the blame to anyone

:47:38. > :47:40.but simply saying that I am being resides were doing something it did

:47:41. > :47:44.not happen in 13 years of the previous administration. When have

:47:45. > :47:48.not lost anything, no force have lost anything these are indicative

:47:49. > :47:54.figures. What we need to make sure that we get the figures right at we

:47:55. > :48:03.go forward. With the background of the lowest levels of police officers

:48:04. > :48:08.since 1979, and her Majesty's Inspector of Gaza very describing

:48:09. > :48:13.the force as inadequate, under the right data, homicide would have been

:48:14. > :48:17.set to get to get additional five point ?7 million. Game you minister

:48:18. > :48:19.assure me and my constituents that under any new formula homicide will

:48:20. > :48:26.also get that additional sum of money? Of course I cannot do that.

:48:27. > :48:30.What I do understand exactly where the honourable ladies coming from.

:48:31. > :48:33.If we are going to pause look carefully at the funding formula and

:48:34. > :48:38.make sure we get it right I am sure she will agree with me it has to be

:48:39. > :48:48.fair. Across the 43 of authorities not to spare for homicide -- not

:48:49. > :48:52.just there for homicide. Neither the Minister nor the government is in

:48:53. > :48:55.control of the policing budget but standing there he does not seem to

:48:56. > :49:02.understand how incompetent this is. In the case of the Met, the error

:49:03. > :49:06.was in a sum of ?180 million. Can we at least have a full written at the

:49:07. > :49:12.nation of how this first occurred and be told at the amount of money

:49:13. > :49:20.wasted by the home office and the 43 forces and going through the

:49:21. > :49:24.process? Mr Speaker, I find it fascinating that after listening to

:49:25. > :49:29.all the other questions of the right honourable members that that was the

:49:30. > :49:37.best the honourable gentleman could do. At the end of the day, Mr

:49:38. > :49:40.Speaker, it is right and improper when mistakes are made at the

:49:41. > :49:47.Minister stand at the dispatch box and says is going on. We will make

:49:48. > :49:50.sure that the new process is as open and honest as possible especially

:49:51. > :49:56.for London. Just before we come to point the ordered there is an

:49:57. > :50:00.expectant house and the appetite is clearly great. I just want to say

:50:01. > :50:05.two things. Following the Minister's observations. First, I am

:50:06. > :50:09.genuinely grateful to the Minister of state who I have known for a very

:50:10. > :50:12.long time. It does not surprise me that he has conducted himself with

:50:13. > :50:19.courtesy. Secondly, because I think it is very important that our

:50:20. > :50:23.proceedings and procedures are intelligible and amenable for people

:50:24. > :50:28.beyond this place -- and meaningful for people beyond his place

:50:29. > :50:33.observing, it is only right to say that this very welcome apology and

:50:34. > :50:43.dedicated response to questioning by the Minister took place because

:50:44. > :50:47.urging questions were submitted and because I granted an urgent

:50:48. > :50:51.question. The home office itself declared in writing that the matter

:50:52. > :50:55.was not urgent and clearly did not think that the urgent question

:50:56. > :50:58.should be granted. It was entitled to its point of view, but I think

:50:59. > :51:01.the House would concur that it suffered from the white material

:51:02. > :51:10.disadvantage of being wrong. LAUGHTER

:51:11. > :51:16.Point of order. I maybe wrong but I am not aware of any member of in

:51:17. > :51:21.this place who is transgender. I have no problem with that, but we do

:51:22. > :51:24.have many woman who came into this house at this election and we do not

:51:25. > :51:30.have sufficient toilet in this place for female members of parliament.

:51:31. > :51:33.Could I ask of you Mr Speaker you could look very carefully at this

:51:34. > :51:40.and make sure we have sufficient toilets for women before we look at

:51:41. > :51:43.people who are not even here yet. I thank the honourable Lady for point

:51:44. > :51:47.of order and indeed for courtesy in getting a man's notice of it. I

:51:48. > :51:50.mentioned a moment ago I thought it was important that our proceedings

:51:51. > :51:55.and procedures should be intelligible. It might therefore be

:51:56. > :52:00.helpful if I explain what I think is the context of any background to the

:52:01. > :52:07.inquiry by the honourable ladies. Namely, reports in the media about

:52:08. > :52:15.work that is being done by Professor Sarah Child on steps that can be

:52:16. > :52:22.taken to make our Parliament... A more gender sensitive permit. It is

:52:23. > :52:28.absolutely true that such work is being done. There are various

:52:29. > :52:33.dimensions to the work and one part of it is looking at toilet

:52:34. > :52:40.facilities. If memory serves me correctly, that is the only

:52:41. > :52:43.reference to the issue, toilets, in terms of sensitivity, nothing beyond

:52:44. > :52:48.that. But the scope is therefore professor child, supported by others

:52:49. > :52:53.to look across the piece and to come to a view as to what would be good

:52:54. > :52:59.for the House as they. He wiping tears right we do not jump the gun,

:53:00. > :53:03.we let her do that work in the very studious and serious minded way that

:53:04. > :53:06.somebody of her intelligence and background will do. I think she will

:53:07. > :53:10.be alerted to the very proper point of order that the honourable lady

:53:11. > :53:14.has raised. Can I say that if the honourable lady would like to

:53:15. > :53:16.contact the professor herself or to write to the House of Commons

:53:17. > :53:20.commission or to the Administration Committee on the very important

:53:21. > :53:24.point she has made will be taken fully on board. I do not want to get

:53:25. > :53:29.into a situation when one is at the stage prioritising this over that.

:53:30. > :53:35.Let's look at it all, including her important point. Point of order Mr

:53:36. > :53:40.Tom Drake. We have learned today from the template that for a

:53:41. > :53:44.government department have agreed to cuts of 30% of their budgets

:53:45. > :53:49.information released no doubt as part of the Chancellor's campaign to

:53:50. > :53:53.get the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions to agree to cut his

:53:54. > :53:55.budget substantially. Mr Speaker, it is not information you would expect

:53:56. > :54:10.us to hear urged in this place? When is the statement is delivered,

:54:11. > :54:15.the honourable gentleman and the house will receive what I suspect

:54:16. > :54:20.will be called a holistic view of the government is thinking and

:54:21. > :54:28.plans. As a matter of course, I should have thought it better, that

:54:29. > :54:35.specific details of individual agreements are first communicated to

:54:36. > :54:38.the house. It may well be, that because of the numbers of people

:54:39. > :54:46.involved in these discussions that things have filtered through into

:54:47. > :54:49.the public domain, in a way, slightly less orderly than the

:54:50. > :54:57.honourable gentleman of what a favour. On the vectors Gael, I think

:54:58. > :55:06.this ranks pretty low, but I think and nevertheless for drawing our

:55:07. > :55:12.attention to it. -- Richter scale. The BBC reported a story and that

:55:13. > :55:18.nine new prisons would be built to replace jails. To my horror, one of

:55:19. > :55:33.the president to be sold off, caused a great deal of concern to my

:55:34. > :55:36.constituents. -- present secondly, the present minister only last week

:55:37. > :55:48.and gave me in assurance that I would be the first -- brother the

:55:49. > :55:55.place is not being sold, how on earth does the BBC makes such a

:55:56. > :55:58.major mistake on and issue that affects my constituents considerably

:55:59. > :56:06.and Heino can I get it on the record that it has been sloppy journalism

:56:07. > :56:12.by the BBC? -- and how can I. First of all as people have noted, he is

:56:13. > :56:19.the source of his own salvation. He asks me how he could set the record

:56:20. > :56:25.straight, he has done just that! The honourable gentleman's point of

:56:26. > :56:31.order reveals three things. First, he cares massively about prisons. He

:56:32. > :56:42.is a global authority on the Victorian error. -- and he does not

:56:43. > :56:46.want to put the boot into the BBC. Can I raise the point of order with

:56:47. > :56:54.you that the backbenchers, on Friday and there were two debates on two

:56:55. > :56:59.bills. He what every syllable in those speeches was in order or the

:57:00. > :57:07.lives, and would not be allowed, some of the comments were peripheral

:57:08. > :57:10.to the subject involves. This was a noncontroversial and on oppose the

:57:11. > :57:18.bill. The second bill had allocated only just empowered to it. This was

:57:19. > :57:27.a bill that offered advantages to patients and health services. This

:57:28. > :57:31.was approved by members of this house, the member and defined expert

:57:32. > :57:35.opinion. The only objection came from the government benches, who

:57:36. > :57:41.spoke on behalf of of the pharmaceutical industry. Sadly, the

:57:42. > :57:45.attempt to have a division on the bill and have a devotion, were

:57:46. > :57:55.turned down and one of the resident just said, can I say, that what we

:57:56. > :58:00.have here is the power of backbenchers against the fact that

:58:01. > :58:08.big five are big sugar have a throat hold on this government. Nobody has

:58:09. > :58:14.a throat hold on the chair of. I know that the honourable gentleman

:58:15. > :58:19.will not suggest that for a moment. I would not be apprehensive of big

:58:20. > :58:26.institutions, big people or people who think that they are big. They

:58:27. > :58:29.are not bigger then the authority of the chair, rather I am in the chair

:58:30. > :58:34.or one of my deputies who is performing the duties of. As new

:58:35. > :58:45.members should know, the honourable sentiment is the author of a note

:58:46. > :58:51.that says how to be a backbenchers. The chair is conscious of its duty,

:58:52. > :58:59.to ensure the rights of backbenchers as a whole. We will keep and eye on

:59:00. > :59:02.the link and relevant of speeches on these occasions. Rather the

:59:03. > :59:10.honourable sentiment is present at the time or not, point of order. Can

:59:11. > :59:22.I have your guidance and advice on incident that took place last week,

:59:23. > :59:27.the incident took place at Manchester civil court. 40 to 50 of

:59:28. > :59:32.my constituents were involved in a cave. When I arrived at the security

:59:33. > :59:41.point I was told that I cannot the granted entry. I identified myself

:59:42. > :59:45.as a member of Parliament. I was calm and courteous as always. After

:59:46. > :59:48.about five minutes, a manager came and pointed his hand towards me and

:59:49. > :59:57.said that I was not coming in and that I was told to leave and the

:59:58. > :00:00.police were being called. I do not want to cause any trouble for

:00:01. > :00:04.greater Manchester police but I did have a desire to join my

:00:05. > :00:12.constituents is to support them in a court case. The I had eight quick

:00:13. > :00:16.chat with the police who I -- I had a quick chat with the police and I

:00:17. > :00:22.identified myself. They denied me the and He opportunity to support my

:00:23. > :00:31.constituents. I am seeking your advice on this matter. He has made

:00:32. > :00:37.clear based on what he has said to me and what he has articulated, his

:00:38. > :00:45.concern about the manner in which he was treated on Friday. While I am

:00:46. > :00:48.always keen to have the ability to represent people. The question on

:00:49. > :00:55.whether the member of Parliament should be given access to a court of

:00:56. > :01:01.law in support of constituents, is not a matter for me. It is a matter

:01:02. > :01:07.on which it would be appropriate for me to comment if I was not present

:01:08. > :01:13.and therefore privy to the instances. With that said, I make

:01:14. > :01:17.two other observations, first the honourable sentiment has made his

:01:18. > :01:22.point and put his concern on the record. I have a sort of sense, that

:01:23. > :01:27.colleagues who know that they could be in a similar position, will

:01:28. > :01:29.empathize with the honourable gentleman and from personal

:01:30. > :01:34.experience over the last six months, I can confirm that he has always

:01:35. > :01:42.been fast that he is in his courtesy. Courteous to a fold in his

:01:43. > :01:54.dealings with the chair. Secondly, I think sometimes people not quite

:01:55. > :01:58.with these circumstances or perhaps lacking experience, but anxious to

:01:59. > :02:02.execute their duties in the most zealous way are on the side of

:02:03. > :02:08.caution. That cost and sometimes make them think that it is easier to

:02:09. > :02:14.say no man to say yes. I was not there and I make no criticism of any

:02:15. > :02:17.individual, but personally I am very sympathetic to the honourable

:02:18. > :02:22.gentleman, I think it is very regrettable that he has had to bring

:02:23. > :02:28.the matter to the house. I think we will have to leave it there for

:02:29. > :02:34.today. Point of order. Thank you Mr Speaker, there was announcement on

:02:35. > :02:39.Saturday as saying that everyone, will be given a legal light to

:02:40. > :02:43.request a 10 megabits a broadband connection. This isn't issue of

:02:44. > :02:52.importance for many businesses and people. Yet, no details were given

:02:53. > :02:57.about how this will be exercised and who will deliver it, and who will

:02:58. > :03:05.fund it. Can you advise me Mr Speaker, rather you have noticed

:03:06. > :03:12.this subject or whether it is in order for government to be and

:03:13. > :03:20.unaccountable press release? Let me say that the subject is not new. It

:03:21. > :03:23.has been extensively debated over a period of. The question of the

:03:24. > :03:30.adequacy or the superfast broadband access in urban areas and rural

:03:31. > :03:35.areas. It seems to me that the distinction is between disclosing a

:03:36. > :03:41.basic intent, and describing a detailed policy. There is nothing

:03:42. > :03:45.particular and usual about the speeches around the country and

:03:46. > :03:51.outside of the house, giving and indication on what they intend to.

:03:52. > :03:59.If however, the government has is Pacific policy, which it proposes to

:04:00. > :04:03.roll out that is different from what is existing, the house should be the

:04:04. > :04:11.first to hear the policy and have the opportunity to question the

:04:12. > :04:19.Minister upon it. I think, we have reached the happy conclusion of

:04:20. > :04:23.point of order for today. I heard of somebody suggested that there was a

:04:24. > :04:28.business question. Well, we will move to the main business, I think

:04:29. > :04:34.to the programme a motion. Question The isn't that the Scotland bill

:04:35. > :04:46.number two on the order paper... Does the honourable zone to men wish

:04:47. > :04:51.to I rate? I indeed. Thank you Mr Speaker, we are profoundly

:04:52. > :04:59.disappointed with the time that was available to discuss information for

:05:00. > :05:08.the Scotland bill. There are over 100 amendments that you selected

:05:09. > :05:12.this afternoon. That follows the 76 page document of amendments that

:05:13. > :05:18.have been submitted from honourable members and of right honourable

:05:19. > :05:22.members across this house. Mr Speaker, we have about two and a

:05:23. > :05:27.half hours to debate the critical amendments on taxpayers and on the

:05:28. > :05:32.Constitution. After that, we will probably have no less than two hours

:05:33. > :05:36.to discuss the equally significant and imported welfare, and the rest

:05:37. > :05:43.of the whole bill. We know how this place works, there will be divisions

:05:44. > :05:49.and 20 minutes with this 18th-century practice. We are just

:05:50. > :06:01.wondering when this house will start to enter into the 21st-century and

:06:02. > :06:06.leave the 18th-century. How can this possibly be right that we have such

:06:07. > :06:10.little time? Realistically we will only have about four hours maybe

:06:11. > :06:15.three and a half. That as a little more than honourable member would

:06:16. > :06:28.get, don't they know that this is 45 minutes. Madam Deputy figure,

:06:29. > :06:37.Scotland is watching this proceedings. They do not understand

:06:38. > :06:41.the this respect. We feel like Scotland has been giving a slap in

:06:42. > :06:48.the face and told just to get on with it for whatever time this house

:06:49. > :06:52.scenes the fit. Order! Order! The honourable sentiment is making some

:06:53. > :06:56.extremely important point. He needs to be heard, he does need to be

:06:57. > :07:03.heard. Not just outside of the chamber but inside this chamber.

:07:04. > :07:07.Members will be quite a body speaks. Scotland is watching, they cannot

:07:08. > :07:12.believe that we have been giving such a limited amount of time to

:07:13. > :07:18.debate these critical and important amendment. That thing is, we have

:07:19. > :07:24.had four days, we were surprised that we had all of this time. But

:07:25. > :07:29.what a supreme loop waste of time. With a government that was semi and

:07:30. > :07:34.gays in that debate. There bought 100 of amendments provided to the

:07:35. > :07:40.government. They provided nothing and no specific commitments of their

:07:41. > :07:45.own. They were in the reflecting states, and was more reflective than

:07:46. > :07:51.the sock over the summer. The one thing that he did not do was

:07:52. > :08:02.properly engaged this house. The committee stage of a bill... The

:08:03. > :08:07.committee stage of this house should be the place the MMS are properly

:08:08. > :08:12.debated, and considered, with the government engaged in the process.

:08:13. > :08:18.And is not good enough to come here with hundreds of amendments and have

:08:19. > :08:25.a limited time to actually consider the bill. It sells great disrespect

:08:26. > :08:30.to this house and is not how you do business. We are at the committee

:08:31. > :08:35.stage of this whole house, it is nothing other than a resting

:08:36. > :08:39.exercised. We have to calibrate how we do business in this house. And is

:08:40. > :08:44.not good enough that we spent all this time wanting to be listened to

:08:45. > :08:49.and do not get enough time to discuss the amendments that are

:08:50. > :08:54.important. We have hundreds of amendments that the government

:08:55. > :08:59.decided to get engaged in this process, they told us that they are

:09:00. > :09:06.necessary and that we need them. All of a sudden today, with this limited

:09:07. > :09:11.amount of time available to us than there are hundreds of amendments on

:09:12. > :09:14.the order paper. We will no longer have the opportunity to properly

:09:15. > :09:17.scrutinize what the government has brought to this house today. Madam

:09:18. > :09:22.Deputy Speaker, we still do not believe that the commission has been

:09:23. > :09:31.delivered. What we are having today in terms of these amendments, to

:09:32. > :09:36.make sure that we get them delivered. Even if it was, this bill

:09:37. > :09:39.is still significantly behind, where the Scottish people are in terms of

:09:40. > :09:44.what they want from the constitutional arrangements from our

:09:45. > :09:56.nation. This is only the start of a catch-up process. . Wind of these

:09:57. > :10:00.gods, but instead of a whingeing about the process, and wasting time

:10:01. > :10:20.on this, why does he not sit down and have a cancel the debate debate

:10:21. > :10:23.plays. I am not giving away to the silly audibles her bosom and once

:10:24. > :10:30.again. Madam Deputy Speaker, what a sham of a process of this has proven

:10:31. > :10:34.to be. On a point of order. It is a complete disgrace for him to accuse

:10:35. > :10:40.people of attacking Scotland when all they are doing, is commenting on

:10:41. > :10:46.his blue Chris tactics, him personally. Not the debug Scotland

:10:47. > :10:53.the honourable gentleman knows that this is not a point of order. I hope

:10:54. > :10:58.that since the honourable gentleman has pointed out that there is only a

:10:59. > :11:02.small amount of time available for this debate, that I hope that we

:11:03. > :11:14.consume come to the debate itself and that the. I want the house to

:11:15. > :11:17.understand the rage that is felt by myself and my honourable friend

:11:18. > :11:22.about the limited amount of time that we have been given. I also want

:11:23. > :11:29.to ensure the house, then we are not looking to have this bill certified

:11:30. > :11:35.as English only, even though the government consider that to be in

:11:36. > :11:40.English only bill. We do not want it to be certified as God is only. This

:11:41. > :11:44.the bill applies exclusively to Scotland. I hope that in a few short

:11:45. > :11:49.hours that we had that English members will remember that because

:11:50. > :11:52.of this is and how they are voting, listen to the voice of God as

:11:53. > :11:56.members of parliament when it comes to the. And is not good enough to

:11:57. > :12:01.turn up the minute you will have a debate on Scottish business and this

:12:02. > :12:07.new age of English votes for English laws. He we want this bill to be

:12:08. > :12:10.discussed and debated properly. We won't be calling a vote in this

:12:11. > :12:15.programme, which even though I think the house smells, because it does

:12:16. > :12:22.pick up time away from a. Madam Deputy Speaker,... Does my

:12:23. > :12:26.honourable friend agree that one of the road ironies is that after this

:12:27. > :12:29.debate this builder move to the House of Lords will and will take

:12:30. > :12:37.weeks or possibly months for scrutiny. I'm grateful to my out of

:12:38. > :12:42.her friend because that is exactly what happened. The minute that the

:12:43. > :12:50.leave this house and it goes to the unelected chamber of donors, it is

:12:51. > :12:56.other disgraced. Madam Deputy Speaker, the Secretary of State

:12:57. > :13:02.things that this bill held the people of Scotland he is mistaken.

:13:03. > :13:06.Scotland is a more confident and assertive nation and it will never

:13:07. > :13:09.stop asking for more responsibility. Might Deputy Speaker, this guide is

:13:10. > :13:11.a more confident and assertive nation and it will never stop asking

:13:12. > :13:24.for more responsibility. Madam Deputy Speaker,... Thank you very

:13:25. > :13:29.much Madam Deputy Speaker, I do not want the house either. I hope it

:13:30. > :13:35.does not turn to dust the butt and I agree with the member, not on the

:13:36. > :13:38.content, but it seems to me that the attitude has started with the

:13:39. > :13:42.particular debate. I think it is one thing that is worth putting on the

:13:43. > :13:48.record. We've been a lot of time with offices and the usual channels

:13:49. > :13:55.and the web, I understand that there was and agreement that this will be

:13:56. > :13:59.the way that is why we are here. We would like some more time in this

:14:00. > :14:04.chamber. Unfortunately that is not what will happen. Given that the

:14:05. > :14:12.government has accepted most of our amendment. And the fact that the

:14:13. > :14:18.Scottish Parliament has moved toward the room movement of the Beatles and

:14:19. > :14:21.these... We think that it has been delivered. We agree some of the

:14:22. > :14:24.Government amendments and the government has come forward with

:14:25. > :14:30.their amendments and agree that some of those. I think we should get on

:14:31. > :14:35.with the debate this afternoon and start to discuss some of these

:14:36. > :14:42.issues and perhaps we will see whether or not the house agrees. The

:14:43. > :14:48.kernel of this argument is around having enough time to debate

:14:49. > :14:56.effectively all of the details and this very comprehensive bill. There

:14:57. > :14:59.must have been some deal about this. Will become to English devolution

:15:00. > :15:08.and come back to the local government bill that actually look

:15:09. > :15:12.and thereafter, because they're more may be more devolution bills

:15:13. > :15:15.pertaining to Scotland and Ireland, there is a mixture of time that we

:15:16. > :15:19.use the floor to be open and transparent and allow all members to

:15:20. > :15:33.get involved. But there is a period in time with the committee upstairs,

:15:34. > :15:41.the detail is taking place upstairs for every member satisfaction. Madam

:15:42. > :15:47.Deputy Speaker I am not going to detain the house because I do not

:15:48. > :15:55.want to get into the time available to debate. I acknowledge the

:15:56. > :16:03.honourable member's anger. He is always angry at something. We have

:16:04. > :16:06.had this sort of stuck in the newspapers and Scotland, the

:16:07. > :16:10.honourable gentleman called the members of the house of commons and

:16:11. > :16:16.to be nicer to him and we will try, but he does make it a bit difficult.

:16:17. > :16:21.It is clear to me Madam Deputy Speaker, that if the honourable

:16:22. > :16:24.gentleman is anger is not directed at me or this house and is directed

:16:25. > :16:28.at the people of Scotland because they have voted decisively to remain

:16:29. > :16:36.in the United Kingdom and that is something that he just cannot

:16:37. > :16:45.accept. The question is, the Scotland bill programme at number

:16:46. > :16:52.two motion as on the order paper, say Ayes, on the contrary say noes.

:16:53. > :16:57.The Ayes have it, the Ayes have it. We will not proceed to redo orders

:16:58. > :17:00.of the day. Scotland bill has amended the committee of the whole

:17:01. > :17:08.house to be considered a. We begin with government view clause 12 which

:17:09. > :17:16.it will be convenient to consider the new clauses and amendments

:17:17. > :17:19.listed on the selection paper. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, I believe

:17:20. > :17:24.that this is a significant day for Scotland move the public debate

:17:25. > :17:27.about our countries future some questions of Constitution process

:17:28. > :17:31.and onto the real business of using power to improve peoples lives. The

:17:32. > :17:34.governmental amendments which I would like to outline today will

:17:35. > :17:39.strengthen the Scotland bill provision provision and clarify its

:17:40. > :17:50.agreements. With that done, it will be done -- time for it Scotland to

:17:51. > :17:54.be success for everybody. The government has engaged while he was

:17:55. > :17:58.interested parties and Scotland to help people understand the bill and

:17:59. > :18:01.listen to their views. We have discussed the causes with the

:18:02. > :18:06.described as government and the committees for both Scottish and

:18:07. > :18:12.this Parliament. There were suggestions on how to improve the

:18:13. > :18:15.drafting of provisions. A number of technical amendments were proposed

:18:16. > :18:20.to ensure that the build of all the powers. As well as a range of

:18:21. > :18:24.substantial arrangements which put beyond doubt that the bill fully

:18:25. > :18:30.delivers the Smith commission agreement. Madam Deputy Speaker, I

:18:31. > :18:34.would like to move the amendments to part one of the bill. We will

:18:35. > :18:38.discuss important amendments on welfare and other parts of the bill

:18:39. > :18:44.later today. Welding on discussions of the Scottish Parliament

:18:45. > :18:51.committee, I am bringing for new clause 12, and amendment 34. The new

:18:52. > :18:56.clause removed the words recognised as and makes clear that the Scottish

:18:57. > :18:59.Parliament and Scottish Government are Parliament institutions which it

:19:00. > :19:05.will take a vote by the people of Scotland in a referendum ever to

:19:06. > :19:09.abolish. This amendment put beyond all doubt that as the prime

:19:10. > :19:14.ministers have said, but it's devolution is woven into the fabric

:19:15. > :19:18.of our United Kingdom. New clause 13 is a technical provision that

:19:19. > :19:27.ensures that the legislative competence is fair to the Scottish,

:19:28. > :19:30.met -- transferred. It is transferred to this Scottish

:19:31. > :19:34.ministers and relation to that area. It will minimise the need for the

:19:35. > :19:41.Scottish Parliament to make separate changes to legislation after

:19:42. > :19:49.commencement of the bill. Amendment 81, 130 - 132 are consequential

:19:50. > :20:00.amendments to new clause 13. Clause 31 will deliver to the Parliament.

:20:01. > :20:06.It was inserted by clause five of the bill. New subsection to be will

:20:07. > :20:17.enable Scottish ministers to make in order for the aid date for the

:20:18. > :20:24.Scottish Parliament election. Government amendment 36 and 44 - 45

:20:25. > :20:30.clarify what is meant by combined elections. Amendment 36 makes clear

:20:31. > :20:33.that the reservations of the government campaign expenditure by

:20:34. > :20:38.political parties apply where there are overlapping regulator periods

:20:39. > :20:46.even if the actual polls take place on different days. Amendment 44-46

:20:47. > :20:54.and sort consistency of language throughout the bill. Amendment

:20:55. > :21:03.hundred and 31 inserts a reference to clause three and has a effect of

:21:04. > :21:07.applying schedule 32 and of legislative Scotland Act 2010 to

:21:08. > :21:13.anything that is exercisable within competence for that clause. The new

:21:14. > :21:17.wording and amendment 37 makes it clear that the Scottish Parliament

:21:18. > :21:21.will have permission and duties that when reporting on the delivering of

:21:22. > :21:28.its functions and relation to elections the Scottish Parliament.

:21:29. > :21:32.Minor amendments 38 and 39 injured as minister has power to make

:21:33. > :21:36.provision on the Parliament. And that they are in line with the

:21:37. > :21:41.competence of the Scottish Parliament in this area. Amendment

:21:42. > :21:46.40, is a minor chance to the subordinate legislation powers of

:21:47. > :21:52.his Scottish ministers with the extent of the reservations of the

:21:53. > :22:01.digital concerns. The distal service which I've set said to as service is

:22:02. > :22:04.the white service is to process information for applications. It is

:22:05. > :22:10.used to process applications to process applications of the

:22:11. > :22:15.registers G B elections as well as the EU parliamentary election.

:22:16. > :22:21.Amendment 41 and 40 to ensure that the power in clause five to specify

:22:22. > :22:24.a new date for and ordinary Scottish parliamentary election works with

:22:25. > :22:31.the existing power to propose to move the date. Amendment 43 has the

:22:32. > :22:37.same purpose as of the section of the clause it for places. To enable

:22:38. > :22:41.Scottish ministers to exercise concurrently with the Secretary of

:22:42. > :22:46.State so that subordinate legislative making functions

:22:47. > :22:53.relating to the individual election services which other remains

:22:54. > :22:56.reserved. Scottish ministers will ask a size functions and make

:22:57. > :23:06.regulations about additional service. Amendments 47 - 66 to

:23:07. > :23:09.clarify rules on majority. They are consequential but draw attention to

:23:10. > :23:18.the house and the three main amendments and the house. He --

:23:19. > :23:23.group -- 60. Rather than assessing the provisions of the bill more

:23:24. > :23:32.generally. Amendment 50 has the affect that a bill passed with a

:23:33. > :23:35.simple majority and respect that a simple majority must be reconsidered

:23:36. > :23:42.by the Scottish Parliament before being submitted for were listed. I

:23:43. > :23:46.consider that it is important that his Scottish Parliament has the

:23:47. > :23:50.opportunity to reconsider the bill in this scenario. Circumstances may

:23:51. > :23:54.have chances the bill was first passed. Amendment 60 probably

:23:55. > :23:58.consequential means that requirements regarding the final

:23:59. > :24:02.stage for the bill and for approval of the bill for reconsideration

:24:03. > :24:07.should be treated as the passing of the bill, and applied regardless of

:24:08. > :24:11.the grounds for reconsideration. Government amendment 62-69 deliver

:24:12. > :24:16.new powers to the Scottish Parliament in relation to the

:24:17. > :24:19.arrangements and operations of the ScottishPower and government. In

:24:20. > :24:23.response to the amendments made in committee stage in discussions with

:24:24. > :24:27.the Scottish Government. This includes powers and relation to the

:24:28. > :24:35.dating of Royal assent, the form and nature of statements made by the

:24:36. > :24:38.presiding officers, let us have appointments to the Scottish

:24:39. > :24:42.Government and the Queens printer for Scotland. These amendments

:24:43. > :24:49.extend far-reaching powers of the arrangements made for the Scottish

:24:50. > :24:53.Parliament and government, already provided by clause 12 and number of

:24:54. > :24:58.amendments made at the committee stage and by the SMP today.

:24:59. > :25:04.I am various grateful to the secretary of state coming to the

:25:05. > :25:08.government amendments. I wonder if he can provide clarity to the House

:25:09. > :25:16.of the guards to the new amendments and whether that with regard to the

:25:17. > :25:20.Mac require any current context? The Trade Union Bill is still under

:25:21. > :25:29.discussion in this house and it is a bill that has been finalised by this

:25:30. > :25:32.house and the other place which will determine the nature of any

:25:33. > :25:36.legislative consent motion which is required which is the normal

:25:37. > :25:39.practice in such matters. Madam Deputy Speaker, the amendments I

:25:40. > :25:46.have tabled today the fill my commitment to reflect on the debate

:25:47. > :25:50.at committee and it is a bit rich to be good-sized bowl for taking no

:25:51. > :25:55.amendments and then in the same breath lodging too many amendments.

:25:56. > :26:01.We did the committee process seriously, we took the contribution

:26:02. > :26:03.by the devolved powers committee in the Scottish Parliament very

:26:04. > :26:07.seriously and that is determined our thinking and launching these

:26:08. > :26:13.amendments. We will hear now the case for other nongovernment

:26:14. > :26:17.commitments, but the House will not be surprised that the government

:26:18. > :26:21.still considers the full fiscal autonomy as not in the interest of

:26:22. > :26:24.the people of Scotland. I believe that Scotland's parties rather than

:26:25. > :26:28.be running the referendum need to work together to understand how the

:26:29. > :26:31.powers in the bill will be used for the benefit of the people of

:26:32. > :26:36.Scotland. The UK government is honouring its commitment in the

:26:37. > :26:39.Edinburgh agreement, excepting the result of the referendum and moving

:26:40. > :26:42.forward to give the Scottish Parliament significant new powers

:26:43. > :26:52.within our United Kingdom. I'm beg to move the amendments in my name.

:26:53. > :26:57.Is very nice to be back here talking about Scottish old, performance of

:26:58. > :27:06.Scottish Parliament and that the government. May I? The first time I

:27:07. > :27:11.have been heckled from the quark's table but I'm sure will not be the

:27:12. > :27:15.last. Desk clerk's table. There is one thing that does concern me,

:27:16. > :27:20.Madam Deputy Speaker as much as I welcome the devolution to Scotland,

:27:21. > :27:23.as much as I envy the devolution that the Scottish people have

:27:24. > :27:34.achieved, because of the hard work of people like Donald and the

:27:35. > :27:42.convention of cottage citizens. Even the 2012 Scotland at and now this

:27:43. > :27:45.act, there are those of us who represent constituents in England

:27:46. > :27:50.who would kill for 1% of the affected devolution that have gone

:27:51. > :27:56.to Scotland and I congratulate the Scottish people for their efforts

:27:57. > :28:00.and where they got to. But I hope we will be coming very soon to how

:28:01. > :28:04.England can learn some of the lessons of Scottish devolution

:28:05. > :28:12.because it has taught many of us many lessons and I will perhaps

:28:13. > :28:17.touch on some of the devolution packages that are now appearing in

:28:18. > :28:26.England copy they do look very puny and weak compared to the proper

:28:27. > :28:32.devolution that is now taken root right rightly in Scotland. My

:28:33. > :28:38.anxiety, one that I would like to mention, Madam Deputy Speaker, is

:28:39. > :28:48.about the July patient. It is not -- centre the July patient. It is not

:28:49. > :28:55.if they go from Whitehall to Holyrood and stay there somewhat

:28:56. > :28:59.argue, perhaps not used as efficiently as they could be, but

:29:00. > :29:04.when the powers... If the honourable gentleman would allow me to make my

:29:05. > :29:12.case I would happily give way. At Wednesday at Holyrood, and do not

:29:13. > :29:16.filter down to lower tiers, perhaps local government in Scotland, but

:29:17. > :29:21.above all to the Scottish people themselves and their communities and

:29:22. > :29:26.their neighbourhoods. Exchanging centre libation from Whitehall and

:29:27. > :29:31.Westminster to Holyrood is not the bargain that many of us thought that

:29:32. > :29:38.we had intensive devolution in Scotland. I am will very likely give

:29:39. > :29:41.way to the honourable member. I am grateful for you giving way. If he

:29:42. > :29:46.was paying attention he will recognise that the Scottish

:29:47. > :29:48.Government has brought forward proposals for further devolution to

:29:49. > :29:52.Ireland communities. With the Scottish Government came to power,

:29:53. > :29:56.one of the first things we did was remove the vast amount of ring

:29:57. > :30:01.fencing that constrained the what 30s. It is the previous labour

:30:02. > :30:06.administration at was guilty of centralisation not the Scottish

:30:07. > :30:10.Government that we have today. Is always good to hear of examples

:30:11. > :30:17.further devolution and I say more power to those who want to double

:30:18. > :30:21.devolved. The more that that happens, the more that those of us

:30:22. > :30:26.and the other nations of the union can learn the examples and see that

:30:27. > :30:34.happening. I would just very gently worn the honourable member that it

:30:35. > :30:41.is no good always going back to times before his party controlled

:30:42. > :30:46.and runs the Scottish Parliament with powers that are unheard of in

:30:47. > :30:51.the rest of the Union. Powers that should be spread to the rest of the

:30:52. > :30:56.union. There has to be a point where those powers are clearly being used

:30:57. > :31:02.by other than complaining about powers that people would like to

:31:03. > :31:06.have or to not use and powers that we ought to be having rather than

:31:07. > :31:10.the ones that are there to be used at the moment. I think that is a

:31:11. > :31:18.really important lesson for all of us who believe in devolution that we

:31:19. > :31:22.need to push these things for -- further. Why is it the case that my

:31:23. > :31:27.good friends in the Scottish National Party have not supported

:31:28. > :31:32.further amendments and proposed further amendments on making sure

:31:33. > :31:36.that local government itself in Scotland in this case can go further

:31:37. > :31:45.and can run much more of its own affairs. Why is it... I will give

:31:46. > :31:48.way to the honourable gentleman. I think the right honourable member

:31:49. > :31:53.for giving way and as always he is making a very coherent argument on

:31:54. > :31:55.his expertise in positives in all matters. Would he not agree with me

:31:56. > :32:00.that this is often a 2-stage process, the first Dean of devolved

:32:01. > :32:04.power to the Scottish Parliament and then to further devolved powers with

:32:05. > :32:09.the powers that it has been given to Ireland and other communities as it

:32:10. > :32:15.has already done so. I think it is important that we see it in stages.

:32:16. > :32:19.I mentioned earlier that the devolution proposals for England

:32:20. > :32:24.have made a start but there may be another couple of bills necessary in

:32:25. > :32:29.this Parliament before we really see what devolution in England looks

:32:30. > :32:33.like. But there has to be a point where the powers that have already

:32:34. > :32:37.been devolved can be used and can't be pushed beyond the Scottish

:32:38. > :32:45.Parliament down to people on the ground. That is why for example I

:32:46. > :32:49.have proposed, and I did not hear a great deal of support for ensuring

:32:50. > :32:53.that local government in Scotland can, if the people in the area

:32:54. > :32:59.consent, raise their own taxation, if they went over people to do that

:33:00. > :33:05.then they should be enabled to rave of taxation. I will give way in just

:33:06. > :33:11.a moment. So that people in the area, if they are convinced of the

:33:12. > :33:15.need for epic particular tags in a particular area, I often refer to my

:33:16. > :33:19.own cave in Nottingham where we will buy to my own cave in Nottingham

:33:20. > :33:25.where we will, a tourist tax or bed tax in order to do good works,

:33:26. > :33:29.providing people in the local area consent and agree that yellow I

:33:30. > :33:32.think the honourable gentleman for giving way but does he not see that

:33:33. > :33:38.the whole point of devolution is that those decisions should be made

:33:39. > :33:40.by the Scottish Parliament in Holyrood who are already carrying

:33:41. > :33:44.through the community and Parliament act. It is not for this plays to

:33:45. > :33:49.tell the Scottish Parliament what to do with the power that is the bald

:33:50. > :33:55.or else it is not devolved. I cannot speak for this faith I can only give

:33:56. > :33:58.a personal opinion which is yes copy you have heard me say how important

:33:59. > :34:04.it is that powers our devolved to the Scottish Parliament, would as a

:34:05. > :34:09.Democrat I would like to see powers DeVault out of Whitehall to the

:34:10. > :34:15.areas in England for example and onto the ground. Even in my own case

:34:16. > :34:21.to go beyond the Nottingham city Council good as it is, down to the

:34:22. > :34:25.areas, localities. It is not a case of someone telling someone to do

:34:26. > :34:29.this. It is a case of if you'd leave in devolution and I can understand

:34:30. > :34:35.the national feeling devolution is not something they want because it

:34:36. > :34:41.undermines the nationalist epic. But it is perfectly valid position to

:34:42. > :34:49.have, nothing to be ashamed of, but nationalism is not localism and you

:34:50. > :34:54.need... I will give way to the honourable gentleman in a second. If

:34:55. > :35:00.you believe in localism, if you believe as I have put down in an

:35:01. > :35:04.amendment in subsidiary in this am pushing power possible levels you

:35:05. > :35:11.cannot stop with nationalism. Cannot stop with just the nation state, you

:35:12. > :35:17.have to have a whole view about how power can go to the people rather

:35:18. > :35:23.than merely to another elected that of people in the Scottish Parliament

:35:24. > :35:29.which can believe it or not, feel as remote I am sure to some people at

:35:30. > :35:34.the federal Parliament here supplied in Scotland less than 2% of money

:35:35. > :35:37.provided to local authorities is ring based in England it is nearly

:35:38. > :35:41.10%. We should not be having this discussion about Scotland being more

:35:42. > :35:45.centralised than England because it is not the case. Of the honourable

:35:46. > :35:49.member talk about the Scotland bill rather than devolution to England? I

:35:50. > :35:53.can see why it is sensitive that I discussed these issues that got us

:35:54. > :36:02.members of the National Party would rather not talk about. I am going to

:36:03. > :36:05.talk about them because, just let me answer your colleague's question

:36:06. > :36:11.then I'll answer you. It is not just as I have said before the property

:36:12. > :36:25.of people in this cottage National Party or even -- cottage National

:36:26. > :36:29.Party -- Scottish national party... If the honourable gentleman goes on

:36:30. > :36:32.about devolution to England, there's not even in an amendment to his name

:36:33. > :36:37.on this issue. When can we get back to debating the Scotland bill with

:36:38. > :36:43.these the dividend amendment in this bill? I understand the point of the

:36:44. > :36:46.honourable gentleman is making in a taken very seriously. I have been

:36:47. > :36:51.listening very carefully to the Abul gentleman who is -- honourable

:36:52. > :36:55.gentleman who is adjusting points which are relevant to the precise

:36:56. > :37:01.matters before us and the amendment and new clauses before us in a

:37:02. > :37:09.general way. But I am sure the honourable gentleman will accept the

:37:10. > :37:13.feeling of the House that while it is interesting and generally

:37:14. > :37:17.relevant to discuss these matters in general and as a point of academic

:37:18. > :37:21.interest, it is also important that they should be time in the debate

:37:22. > :37:25.for the very many amendment and new clauses that are before us. So I am

:37:26. > :37:31.not sopping the honourable gentleman, but I am trusting him to

:37:32. > :37:42.know when he will drive marks to a conclusion. -- draw his remarks to a

:37:43. > :37:44.conclusion that light perhaps the honourable gentleman is a little

:37:45. > :37:47.anxious as he is now part of the establishment in this place, used to

:37:48. > :37:52.having the privilege of unlimited time to talk to the House, many of

:37:53. > :37:59.us do not have that and we are very jealous of him when he gets up to

:38:00. > :38:02.speak for link, but I am rather supplies at being stopped from

:38:03. > :38:05.entering the question of his honourable friend that I was in the

:38:06. > :38:09.middle of doing. I am also broader there is the bride did not read the

:38:10. > :38:12.order paper because he was the gas rather surprised he did not read the

:38:13. > :38:16.order paper because he will see for in my name. If he takes the time to

:38:17. > :38:19.look at those rather than repeating the speech he has made on previous

:38:20. > :38:24.days he would be better informed on that. Being very careful to stay

:38:25. > :38:31.close to my amendment which are obviously in order of the new

:38:32. > :38:35.clauses, raising money locally, being enabled to raise money locally

:38:36. > :38:42.I think is very important for all our localities and is a symptom of

:38:43. > :38:47.being freed more from Whitehall and Westminster so that this place and

:38:48. > :38:53.Whitehall does what it should do and our perspective nations can govern

:38:54. > :38:58.themselves as much as is absolutely appropriate which they do not

:38:59. > :39:00.currently do, and Colman is leading the way on showing us how to do

:39:01. > :39:13.that. -- Gotland is leading the way. Is about making sure that all must

:39:14. > :39:18.share the benefits of devolution while we remain together I hope we

:39:19. > :39:23.will in the union. I would give way to the honourable gentleman but I

:39:24. > :39:28.give way to the honourable in. He has just said this is not just about

:39:29. > :39:36.Gotland, this is the Scotland bill. Please can we does that Scotland. I

:39:37. > :39:42.know it is difficult to except sometimes when one looks at 1's own

:39:43. > :39:45.propaganda that in fact it is only ever about the Scottish National

:39:46. > :39:49.Party. The truth of the matter is the Scotland bill has in blacks on

:39:50. > :39:53.the rest of the union. We really have impact on the rest of the Union

:39:54. > :39:58.and those of us that will benefit or suffer from matters related to

:39:59. > :40:02.Scotland have a right to express a view and if there was a slightly

:40:03. > :40:06.more outgoing sharing of learning and experience from some colleagues

:40:07. > :40:12.on the Scottish National Party I think there would be more friends

:40:13. > :40:15.want from those of us who very strongly believe in devolution in

:40:16. > :40:22.the other nations of the United Kingdom. I will give way to my

:40:23. > :40:25.honourable friend. I just wondered if the honourable gentleman will see

:40:26. > :40:29.the irony that we voted through English wellspring was lost over

:40:30. > :40:33.created second-class MPs were those of us that come from Scotland. Be we

:40:34. > :40:40.can't fully represent our constituents in this place and here

:40:41. > :40:43.we have the situation that Scotland and 56 SNP MPs with a clear mandate

:40:44. > :40:46.to deliver home rule for Scotland and we are not getting with the

:40:47. > :40:49.Scottish people want because MPs from other parts of the United

:40:50. > :40:53.Kingdom are voting against our interest. We should be having

:40:54. > :41:01.Scottish votes for Scottish laws in this place. I have sympathy for what

:41:02. > :41:06.the honourable gentleman is staying in the generality of what you think

:41:07. > :41:09.but I have to remind him that there was a Scottish referendum and that I

:41:10. > :41:18.understand that majority of Scottish people voted Tuesday in the union.

:41:19. > :41:26.There was a general election, indeed there was a general election. The

:41:27. > :41:28.honourable gentleman from a sedentary position asked me how we

:41:29. > :41:36.got on, there were 50% of Scottish people who voted against the

:41:37. > :41:41.Scottish National Party and unfortunately 50% of Scotland is

:41:42. > :41:46.represented by three numbers of Parliament. The honourable gentleman

:41:47. > :41:53.should relish his victory and he thoroughly deserves to have all the

:41:54. > :41:57.accolades appropriate, but I do ask the honourable gentleman to be a

:41:58. > :42:02.little careful that he does not become triumphant because 50% of

:42:03. > :42:06.cottage people being represented by three members of Parliament is not

:42:07. > :42:14.something his party should be proud of. I hope that the desire for

:42:15. > :42:24.proportional representation which suited the Scottish National Party

:42:25. > :42:28.for many years, now one he has very little, I am just winding up in a

:42:29. > :42:34.way the honourable gentleman may not approve of. Just getting my first

:42:35. > :42:41.wind in the honourable gentleman will allow. It is, I hope the

:42:42. > :42:47.Scottish National Party will not forget their commitment to

:42:48. > :42:51.proportional representation, just because first past the Post has

:42:52. > :42:58.delivered for them a growth disfigured distortion of how many is

:42:59. > :43:05.that width 56 members of Parliament representing happy population. Three

:43:06. > :43:10.members of Parliament representing the other half of the population. I

:43:11. > :43:13.hope that he felt that that is not an appropriate allocation and I hope

:43:14. > :43:17.the Scottish National Party renew their bigger when talking about

:43:18. > :43:22.proportional representation because it has gone rather why it on that

:43:23. > :43:26.subject. I will give weight. I thank my honourable friend for giving way.

:43:27. > :43:29.Does he detect that in a of interventions of the SND member they

:43:30. > :43:32.are purposely upbeat to talk about devolution down to the Scottish

:43:33. > :43:35.level but very keen and not to talk about devolution down to the more

:43:36. > :43:39.local levels on the kind of the local gentleman -- honourable

:43:40. > :43:49.gentleman is outlining and his contributions. I hope people even to

:43:50. > :43:52.haggle and shout with a I try to engage people from the Scottish

:43:53. > :43:58.National Party in debate on these issues. Sometimes they get they bit

:43:59. > :44:02.interesting and you did but that is because we all care passionately

:44:03. > :44:06.about the viewpoints we are putting over. I am trying to put my point of

:44:07. > :44:13.view over. It may be that within what appears to be a robotic

:44:14. > :44:15.monolithic goddess National Party -- goddess National Party that there

:44:16. > :44:20.may be shades of opinion where some people in the Scottish National

:44:21. > :44:23.Party say that perhaps other people do have a view and perhaps there is

:44:24. > :44:30.some resonance there rather than we just want to be told to do what the

:44:31. > :44:33.regular Monday beating does. I like to thank him for giving way. I take

:44:34. > :44:40.a different view to my honourable friend. I do not think that it is

:44:41. > :44:44.necessary, the point he makes. I think is that the SNP who are as my

:44:45. > :44:48.honourable friend said now the establishment in Scotland, are

:44:49. > :44:53.desperate to avoid any scrutiny of the way that they run the Scottish

:44:54. > :44:56.woman because what they want to do is blame everybody else, the wicked

:44:57. > :45:08.people down south where everything that goes wrong in that country stop

:45:09. > :45:12.. I know my honourable friend will be making that point and many others

:45:13. > :45:18.when it comes to the call to speak. Very directly on the order paper, my

:45:19. > :45:26.New Clause eight talks about defining, it is all right sitting at

:45:27. > :45:29.Holyrood and handing out legislature but that is exactly what Whitehall

:45:30. > :45:32.and Westminster does to everybody else. The Scottish people have

:45:33. > :45:37.suffered from that as much as being was people. One of the ways get

:45:38. > :45:42.around that is to define the competences of local government and

:45:43. > :45:51.national government, such that you cannot undertake when it suits you

:45:52. > :45:54.-- unpick the idea that powers should be devolved the on either

:45:55. > :46:01.Holyrood or Westminster. Unless it is written in such a way that is

:46:02. > :46:06.entrenched, you will find people inevitably find that the lore of

:46:07. > :46:09.power from the centre, telling people what to do whether it is

:46:10. > :46:17.Holyrood or Whitehall is all too strong. My New Clause, eight,

:46:18. > :46:22.actually says that people who want to engage in this debate should sit

:46:23. > :46:26.down and discuss with local government wherever it is what it is

:46:27. > :46:30.that is appropriate for local government to do. I do not think

:46:31. > :46:37.Scotland, England, Wales and Northern Ireland should be immune

:46:38. > :46:42.from that year he that idea -- that theory, that idea that otherwise

:46:43. > :46:45.they will find the power to back up as them of my friends in Scotland

:46:46. > :46:49.are telling me it has become ever more centralised and no doubt that

:46:50. > :46:53.would be a matter of debate. But that is what people are saying and

:46:54. > :46:57.it may be that the easiest way around that is not to say we are

:46:58. > :47:00.very nice to people, we have been lying to people when we give them a

:47:01. > :47:10.little bit more money here and there, it actually to allow them the

:47:11. > :47:16.very drivers that produced... I give way to the honourable gentleman .dll

:47:17. > :47:21.he talks about devolving power. He talks about devolving power and as

:47:22. > :47:23.we know money is power. William for the permit for devolving prevention

:47:24. > :47:27.of business made locally, a policy which has evolved to the Scottish

:47:28. > :47:34.government that is not being mimicked in Scotland? The Scottish

:47:35. > :47:41.National Party and the conservative power together if they do good

:47:42. > :47:43.things in Dems are pushing power down or pushing finance down I am

:47:44. > :47:49.very happy to applaud them. What I am saying is that in order that what

:47:50. > :47:55.the centre give this Comedy Central can take it away. Order to avoid

:47:56. > :48:00.that we have to have this as a proper weight written settlement

:48:01. > :48:03.because there will be a time even if you do not think you are doing it

:48:04. > :48:07.now, there will be a time when that temptation to turn it around, suck

:48:08. > :48:11.power back, tell people what to do from the centre whether it is

:48:12. > :48:24.Holyrood or Whitehall or Westminster will overcome people even with the

:48:25. > :48:28.best parts. I give way to a. This is a United Kingdom billable to have

:48:29. > :48:35.impact on my constituents as well as others and I'll be delighted if the

:48:36. > :48:38.Clause that my friend is moving were able in somewhere to be taken from

:48:39. > :48:44.this bill into an English bill so that my counsel can protect my

:48:45. > :48:50.constituents and assume what the people of Scotland are doing for

:48:51. > :48:56.there. I welcome this bill. That is why knowing many of my parliamentary

:48:57. > :49:00.colleagues from Scotland I rely on their generosity of spirit to

:49:01. > :49:05.actually help those of us who are trying to do it evolved settlement

:49:06. > :49:10.in other parts of the union -- devolved settlement, not to pull up

:49:11. > :49:19.the job age, not to say that we have what we want -- Strawbridge. Now we

:49:20. > :49:25.have on the back of 50% of votes in our nation and we have 95% of the

:49:26. > :49:28.Steve, that is all OK. Now we are in control of the Scottish Parliament,

:49:29. > :49:32.not when to use the powers but we will set up power from local

:49:33. > :49:36.government. I know that is not where many of my colleagues parliamentary

:49:37. > :49:39.colleagues of Scotland was to be but they need to speak up. They need to

:49:40. > :49:43.make that clear in their internal meetings, inside their party, they

:49:44. > :49:49.need to be clear with people who are telling them leave it to eyes, we

:49:50. > :49:53.are the top dogs, do what you are told, show up, it is your ship, all

:49:54. > :49:57.that sort of stuff. We have it in every other party and evil will hope

:49:58. > :50:05.that there can be proper debates within parties so that all of the

:50:06. > :50:09.devolution here can move forward. It has to go beyond Scotland if you

:50:10. > :50:15.really believe in devolution you have to take it beyond the one area

:50:16. > :50:22.and I am happy to discuss and debate that with anybody. One of the areas

:50:23. > :50:29.that we need to talk about... I would be very happy to give way to

:50:30. > :50:35.the honourable member who is shouting. I am very happy to have

:50:36. > :50:39.shouting into speculating, it is the parliamentary equivalent of bidding

:50:40. > :50:49.at your opponent in the street. -- bidding at your opponent --

:50:50. > :50:54.I am not happy to have shouting and just make you a cent, but I will say

:50:55. > :51:02.to the honourable gentleman that sometimes when the House becomes a

:51:03. > :51:07.little the Severus is possibly an indication that when there is a

:51:08. > :51:12.limited amount of time per debate and the honourable gentleman does

:51:13. > :51:19.have four very important amendments down for discussion that he had

:51:20. > :51:23.taken a fair chunk of the time for the debate and as I said

:51:24. > :51:27.previously, I am not sopping him, he has the Lord, he is a senior and

:51:28. > :51:32.much respected member of the South and he will know himself when he had

:51:33. > :51:42.taken the right amount of time in this very short debate. I will go on

:51:43. > :51:46.if people allow me to. As always, there is not a person in this

:51:47. > :51:50.chamber who can say that I do not give way when people have a

:51:51. > :51:53.reopening of debate rather than just yelling from a sedentary position.

:51:54. > :52:01.That will continue to be my policy and I will not move from that

:52:02. > :52:07.whatever the provocation. The New Clause nine thoughts about

:52:08. > :52:11.subsidiarity brought to us from the former lady from indent or the

:52:12. > :52:17.master treaty. What it does and respectful this bill Madam Deputy

:52:18. > :52:23.Speaker is to enable us to define and keep a very clear view, a very

:52:24. > :52:31.clear perspective on what is local, what is regional, what is national

:52:32. > :52:34.and what is federal. That, I believe will actually help everybody,

:52:35. > :52:42.whichever country they are in within the union, will help everybody to

:52:43. > :52:46.actually sustain as well as when small victories here and there, to

:52:47. > :52:51.sustain a change in our democratic structure with will make it harder

:52:52. > :52:59.for those who wish to actually do away when they feel a convenience

:53:00. > :53:05.with any settlement. Part of the bill in front of as, Madam Deputy

:53:06. > :53:11.Speaker in my view relates very much to the rest of the United Kingdom.

:53:12. > :53:15.That is around the possibility of having a citizens convention rather

:53:16. > :53:20.modelled on the Scottish convention, where people throughout

:53:21. > :53:24.the whole of the United Kingdom can face some of these issues which are

:53:25. > :53:31.of great importance to us. I think the debate around evil was a day

:53:32. > :53:35.version. It was an irrelevant, it was a mere procedural issue and is

:53:36. > :53:41.very little to do with devolution and greater freedom for our people

:53:42. > :53:51.within the United Kingdom. I hope very much that we move on from where

:53:52. > :53:55.we are on Scottish devolution and where we are on the local Government

:53:56. > :54:00.Bill which is devolution in England and that we take these issues

:54:01. > :54:06.forward together. Working together, all parties, and making sure that

:54:07. > :54:10.there is a constitutional brother a citizen's convention on devolution

:54:11. > :54:14.so that we can't read some of the excellent things achieved by the

:54:15. > :54:20.Scottish people and by people like Donald Dewar and by those in the

:54:21. > :54:25.Scottish citizens convention and those that worked on the 2012 act,

:54:26. > :54:32.all those parties of the union that worked together to create the

:54:33. > :54:37.Scottish bill which is now before us, which quite rightly is the first

:54:38. > :54:40.bill for Parliament. I hope very much Madam Deputy Speaker, using

:54:41. > :54:46.that president that the first bill in the 2020 Parliament is a bill

:54:47. > :54:52.that brings devolution to all the nations of the union so that all the

:54:53. > :54:55.nations of the union can get the benefits which are rightly going to

:54:56. > :55:04.be enjoyed by the people in Scotland.

:55:05. > :55:10.Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to speak to New Clause one,

:55:11. > :55:14.which has been tabled by the Secretary of State, what he calls

:55:15. > :55:19.for independent commission of four fiscal autonomy. I have to say to

:55:20. > :55:23.him that there is a wealth of hypocrisy about this. He may not

:55:24. > :55:28.remember but on June the 15th, during the committee stage, I put

:55:29. > :55:33.forward an amendment to achieve immediate four fiscal autonomy. I

:55:34. > :55:39.was supported in that minute by the division lobbies cop, by the SNP and

:55:40. > :55:44.buy some colleagues. And the Labour Party on the June 15, if they have

:55:45. > :55:49.bolted with us, could have had full fiscal autonomy and I. They chose

:55:50. > :55:56.not to do it. I don't know whether they are embarrassed about that, but

:55:57. > :56:01.they now, will be shadow Secretary of State for shaking his head. He

:56:02. > :56:06.said he is not embarrassed. To produce and other talking shop,

:56:07. > :56:10.another Smith commission for fiscal autonomy. Knocking into the long

:56:11. > :56:15.grass, incidentally he says that no members of Parliament or members of

:56:16. > :56:21.the other place should serve on this. Indeed the Secretary of State

:56:22. > :56:28.should not appoint as a member of the commission and member who is a

:56:29. > :56:32.member of a party. This is a sort of process of thinking that somehow

:56:33. > :56:35.politicians said take decisions that as it is not statements of his

:56:36. > :56:41.disciples being of the nations, it is unelected commissions. What was

:56:42. > :56:46.such a commission meeting for many months tell us what we don't know

:56:47. > :56:52.already? The fact is that full fiscal autonomy is a well understood

:56:53. > :56:56.concept. It has to be part simplicity. I'm not going to repeat

:56:57. > :57:01.all the arguments I made in his favour on June the 15th, but the

:57:02. > :57:06.Labour Party could have had a. I give this prediction that at the

:57:07. > :57:09.general election, he did the Conservative Party in their

:57:10. > :57:13.manifesto, or the Labour Party will promise a full fiscal autonomy. I

:57:14. > :57:17.believe they have to do that because we will continue to be behind the

:57:18. > :57:23.curve. I was criticised by some of my colleagues who are being

:57:24. > :57:29.unhelpful on the 15th of. I think I was hopeful for the conservative

:57:30. > :57:33.cause of. Because it shows these some people in Scotland that there

:57:34. > :57:37.were Unionist politicians who valued the union. Who do believe in full

:57:38. > :57:42.fiscal autonomy and to believe it is the best way to stop the gradual

:57:43. > :57:52.slide towards independence. Because if we have a Scottish Parliament

:57:53. > :57:58.based on the Smith commission, which is involved highly complex

:57:59. > :58:02.procedures on tax and other matters. You are leading to a sense of

:58:03. > :58:08.grievance. The way to solve the grievance is to have a full fiscal

:58:09. > :58:13.autonomy immediately and the Scottish Parliament should tax the

:58:14. > :58:17.people, spend that money, and they are held responsible. At the

:58:18. > :58:21.Scottish National Party controls the Scottish Parliament, it is held

:58:22. > :58:25.responsible by the Scottish people. I would argue also that actually

:58:26. > :58:31.full fiscal autonomy is either more relevant and even more the arguments

:58:32. > :58:35.have had more in his favour since June the 15th for the debate that we

:58:36. > :58:43.have had. What is the objection to evil? The objection to evil is that

:58:44. > :58:46.we have these bonnet formula. Therefore they are not allowed to

:58:47. > :58:53.bar brawl stage of the bill. But a bill could change spending habits of

:58:54. > :58:55.the changes English, and automate it automatically changes Scottish

:58:56. > :58:59.spending. But Scottish members are Parliament are not allowed to vote

:59:00. > :59:03.at all stages of the bill. If he had full fiscal autonomy, if we did away

:59:04. > :59:09.with the Barnett formula, there will be need for... Get you on the

:59:10. > :59:12.bizarre methods would be foreign affairs and Defense. Foreign affairs

:59:13. > :59:18.and Defense account for a very large small proportion of total spending.

:59:19. > :59:27.I think the budget of the Foreign Office is .2% of GNP. Him of the is

:59:28. > :59:33.2%. The Foreign Office and is less than 2%. Would highly have any

:59:34. > :59:36.legislation, sometimes years passed without there being any legislation

:59:37. > :59:41.on the him of the or the Foreign Office. In the Scottish Parliament

:59:42. > :59:45.have full fiscal autonomy, therefore very effectively the only

:59:46. > :59:53.legislation that affected the Scottish people, there'll be no need

:59:54. > :59:59.evil. This whole debate around bonnet and evil which is gradually

:00:00. > :00:05.and endanger, I don't want to, but it will be used by our political

:00:06. > :00:08.opponents, they do oppose the giving end, they are entitled to make what

:00:09. > :00:16.arguments they like. They would use the debate around able to argue

:00:17. > :00:19.against the United Kingdom. I do indeed remember the members that he

:00:20. > :00:23.bought before the House in terms of full fiscal autonomy. He will also

:00:24. > :00:28.remember that the Shadow Chancellor also vote in the lobbies would be

:00:29. > :00:32.gentleman. Would he agree with me that it might be progress indeed for

:00:33. > :00:40.the Labour Party if we follow the party leadership on this matter to

:00:41. > :00:44.a? The wishing to have an interesting concept nowadays in the

:00:45. > :00:49.Labour Party. We have full fiscal, full freedom on the new ventures,

:00:50. > :00:57.and apparently their leader can oppose Labour Party policies. The

:00:58. > :01:01.Shadow Chancellor of others party policy on full fiscal autonomy. This

:01:02. > :01:08.is an interesting situation, that we live in. I think I have made my

:01:09. > :01:12.point. I do not believe that this is a genuine proposal from the shadow

:01:13. > :01:18.Secretary of State. He is going to tell me it is. I respect the right

:01:19. > :01:21.honourable gentleman immensely in this fight. B thinks back to the

:01:22. > :01:27.debate that we had on June the 15th, no one in this chamber from the SNP

:01:28. > :01:35.or his colleagues believed the figures is double board. Is an

:01:36. > :01:42.attempt to put some clarity and to those figures rather than that and

:01:43. > :01:47.?1 billion glycol. I don't want to get and all the debate about black

:01:48. > :01:53.old and the deficit in all the rest of the. I remember that I was

:01:54. > :01:55.intervened. And I said that should be transitional arrangements. I

:01:56. > :02:03.accepted that and made the point that this was not a bright wing Tory

:02:04. > :02:08.trap to trap the SNP. This was not a device to get rid of bonnet because

:02:09. > :02:13.we were claiming that the Scottish people get ?6,000 a year more. I

:02:14. > :02:19.precisely said it that if we had full fiscal autonomy, if bonnet was

:02:20. > :02:24.gotten rid of, we should retain the UK and the should be a grand formula

:02:25. > :02:35.based on these. If Scotland had a particular problem, we aren't United

:02:36. > :02:38.Kingdom Parliament. And we are a fraternal Parliament and I believe

:02:39. > :02:45.in the union and standing together. If there is a need for the UK, I

:02:46. > :02:50.then called at the Imperial Parliament see, helping our friends

:02:51. > :03:01.and whales. They don't like that word but I use that today. It is a

:03:02. > :03:04.technical term that if our friends need extra help from the UK

:03:05. > :03:09.Parliament, we should give that help. It should be based on needs,

:03:10. > :03:15.not this automatic formula based on the bonnet, which is a outmoded

:03:16. > :03:21.concept that says has outlived this time. I also said that it is very

:03:22. > :03:28.dangerous in the concept of the able debate, I'm glad that the Labour

:03:29. > :03:31.Party, I respect the Secretary of State, but they are making some

:03:32. > :03:36.progress in. I believe that they are still behind the curve. I don't

:03:37. > :03:40.think they ever going to get back in front of the curve in Scotland,

:03:41. > :03:46.unless they actually are bold. I say again to the point that I made back

:03:47. > :03:52.in June, that whether we like it or not, we have the election system

:03:53. > :03:57.that we have. We the Unionist parties, what the Scottish people,

:03:58. > :04:01.we based our arguments on the Smith commission and only 156 at a 59

:04:02. > :04:06.seats in Scotland. That is a system that we have. That is the

:04:07. > :04:09.parliamentary system that we live in. We have to accept that whether

:04:10. > :04:17.we like it or not, the Smith commission was rejected by the

:04:18. > :04:22.Scottish people. If we want to save the Union, and I am passionate about

:04:23. > :04:27.the union as he is, we cannot be behind the curve on this. We have to

:04:28. > :04:30.be a, we have to be bold, and I think we have to move with full

:04:31. > :04:41.fiscal autonomy, and move with it now. R Bross to speak to the

:04:42. > :04:46.amendments tabled in my name and proceedings which thus far of most

:04:47. > :04:55.eras of Scotland will view of a total travesty and a farce. We are

:04:56. > :05:00.told that this is a piece of legislation of amazing proportions

:05:01. > :05:03.and importance of. Yeah, there are tend back benches on the

:05:04. > :05:07.conservative side of the House and less than ten members of Parliament

:05:08. > :05:13.on the labour side of the House. What does it say about the Unionist

:05:14. > :05:18.party in this house, that they can even be bothered to turn up for a

:05:19. > :05:23.debate about something that they think is so important? We are

:05:24. > :05:30.debating the reports stage of the Scotland of today where there are

:05:31. > :05:35.200 or more amendments or new clauses before us. 200. Yet we have

:05:36. > :05:38.heard extended speeches about English local government and a whole

:05:39. > :05:43.series of other things, that have nothing to do with the Scotland bill

:05:44. > :05:48.or the proceedings which are before us today. The context of proceedings

:05:49. > :05:55.is clear to people listening and watching and Scotland. Firstly, a

:05:56. > :06:01.promise was made. Secondly, we heard today in and day out that the bald

:06:02. > :06:07.Macs will be delivered, even from Labour MPs of the time. We heard

:06:08. > :06:11.from the foreign -- former Prime Minister Gordon Brown. Near

:06:12. > :06:17.federalism. Within a year or two as close to a federal state can be. You

:06:18. > :06:25.can call this legislation many things. But it is not a charged for

:06:26. > :06:29.federalism. It is a long, long way way from that. We all know that the

:06:30. > :06:33.shortcomings have been that, notwithstanding the fact that they

:06:34. > :06:36.have been denied. But that being denied by the government site, but I

:06:37. > :06:40.cleared for pretty much anyone else who cares to look at the. Why do we

:06:41. > :06:44.know that? Because there are others who are not an political parties

:06:45. > :06:47.have said so. And they do have a vested interest from the Scottish

:06:48. > :06:53.trades Union Congress, the Scottish Council organization, care for

:06:54. > :06:59.Scotland. The cross party committee of the Scottish Parliament to have

:07:00. > :07:03.the obligation to look at this on which, we had senior Conservatives

:07:04. > :07:09.and Labour MSP serving. They said that these Scotland bill falls short

:07:10. > :07:15.in some critical areas. The Scotland bill does not meet the spirit or

:07:16. > :07:19.substance of the Smith commission recommendation. And required

:07:20. > :07:25.extensive or redrafting and other key areas. What about those who do

:07:26. > :07:30.have a political interest? Let's take the leader of the party of

:07:31. > :07:35.Scotland, Mr Alex Riley speaking on BBC radio Scotland on September the

:07:36. > :07:41.18th, 2015. I call from him, no is and no buts. Smith has not been

:07:42. > :07:47.delivered and we will stand shoulder to shoulder with SNP ministers to

:07:48. > :07:50.deliver Smith. How ironic. Where would the bushes today? Where were

:07:51. > :07:55.the speeches? Perhaps with the hidden leader. We have not heard one

:07:56. > :08:01.that reflects those realities. We should not lose sight of the fact

:08:02. > :08:06.that the Smith commission followed the referendum, and have as said in

:08:07. > :08:10.previous meetings of this house, debating the Scotland bill, that we

:08:11. > :08:14.recognise and respect the result of the referendum. And we didn't

:08:15. > :08:18.proceeded to work with the other political parties in the Smith

:08:19. > :08:23.commission, and we didn't want to the country and a general election.

:08:24. > :08:28.Like other political parties, we stood on a manifesto. The manifesto

:08:29. > :08:32.said as follow, we welcome the proposals set out in the Smith

:08:33. > :08:35.commission as far as did we go. Before further watering down of the

:08:36. > :08:40.grant proposals by the UK Government is unacceptable. That should be no

:08:41. > :08:44.effective veto for UK ministers on the exercise of the various new

:08:45. > :08:48.powers and particular over the welfare system. It goes on. We

:08:49. > :08:51.shared the view of many organizations across Scotland that

:08:52. > :08:57.the package as it stands, does not enable us to deliver fully social

:08:58. > :09:04.justice are the powerhouse of a economy that opt out -- country

:09:05. > :09:06.demand. That is not enough Smith commission recommendations to

:09:07. > :09:10.empower the Scottish Parliament to tackle inequalities in Scotland.

:09:11. > :09:17.Dismiss commission proposals were in many respects a missed opportunity.

:09:18. > :09:20.This isn't about more than 70% of Scottish taxes and 85% of the

:09:21. > :09:25.current UK welfare spending and Scotland will stay at Westminster.

:09:26. > :09:30.We also want to the country with the following pledge, that Scotland

:09:31. > :09:33.should have the opportunity to establish its own constitutional

:09:34. > :09:36.framework. Including human rights, equality, it is in place of local

:09:37. > :09:40.government. The Scottish Parliament should also have the ability to

:09:41. > :09:43.revisit its interest on the Bob method and the EQ and

:09:44. > :09:49.internationally. We went to the country would do pledges, and what

:09:50. > :10:00.happened? An absolute electoral wipe-out for the Labour Party in

:10:01. > :10:07.Scotland, losing 40 of 41 sees. Losing right across the Scotland.

:10:08. > :10:12.Who I will move on to next. The worst electoral showing an hundred

:10:13. > :10:18.years -- 100 years, since 1865. I have to say to the Honorable

:10:19. > :10:22.gentleman, that I will be grateful if he can point out a single country

:10:23. > :10:27.in the industrialised democratic world, where the mainstream centre

:10:28. > :10:32.right party does as bad as the Scottish Conservative Party. Name

:10:33. > :10:37.that country. Has been put on the record so many times by the

:10:38. > :10:41.gentleman, what I would like to do is one of the Conservative Party

:10:42. > :10:46.polled more votes in the 2015 general election than they did in

:10:47. > :10:51.the 2010 election. He shot to distort those figures. Perhaps,

:10:52. > :10:55.Madam Deputy Speaker, perhaps he would like to join me in

:10:56. > :11:14.congratulating the new conservative counsel would, who taught... The

:11:15. > :11:17.right honourable gentleman had the opportunity to name a single country

:11:18. > :11:20.in the industrialised democratic world where at centre right party

:11:21. > :11:24.does worse than the Scottish Conservative Party. He cannot think

:11:25. > :11:31.of one, because there is not one. The Scottish Tories pulled what he

:11:32. > :11:40.or 9%, down 2%. To be proud of that, for the Secretary of State for

:11:41. > :11:45.Scotland to deny the fact this goes to show how far the Conservative

:11:46. > :11:50.Party, the Labour Party, and also by the point out that liberal

:11:51. > :11:56.Democrats. I don't see the Liberal Democrats here. They lost ten out of

:11:57. > :12:02.11 seats in Scotland. The point of all of this is his understanding of

:12:03. > :12:07.where the Democrat -- democratic mandate lies. We want to the country

:12:08. > :12:13.sank Smith should be delivered in full and further parents should be

:12:14. > :12:16.delivered. And the Scottish National Party won an overwhelming mandate to

:12:17. > :12:23.come to this place and make the case. The gentleman allow time to

:12:24. > :12:30.make a speech and later. That is very little time. I'm the first

:12:31. > :12:37.commentary from the SNP to be caught in this proceeding, more than an

:12:38. > :12:42.hour after the beginning. Madam Deputy Speaker, the sole purpose of

:12:43. > :12:45.the Scotland bill is to implement dismiss commission in. He amendments

:12:46. > :12:51.in the UK Government are a welcome admission that the Scotland bill as

:12:52. > :12:56.published did not deliver Smith. However, the governments of member

:12:57. > :13:00.to the bill still fail to deliver Smith and still failed Scotland. We

:13:01. > :13:03.at SNP had tabled a brand of amendments that will give the people

:13:04. > :13:06.of Scotland the powers that they were promised and the powers that

:13:07. > :13:11.they will need. We have tabled amendments on tax credits, which

:13:12. > :13:14.will devolve to excellence of working tax credits. We have tabled

:13:15. > :13:18.amendments on employment rights which will devolve control over

:13:19. > :13:21.employment rights in the industrial relation to the Scottish Parliament.

:13:22. > :13:30.Will be debating these in the next section. We have also tabled an

:13:31. > :13:33.amendment to the bald powers of all referendum on Scottish independence

:13:34. > :13:37.to the Scottish Parliament. There should be at only be under

:13:38. > :13:42.referendum on the people of Scotland indicate that they one. It is right

:13:43. > :13:47.that the Scottish Parliament, the people Scottish Parliament hold the

:13:48. > :13:53.power to react to the wishes of the people of Scotland. We also should

:13:54. > :13:58.not lose sight of the fiscal framework. That is the financial

:13:59. > :14:02.underpinnings which will allow the transfer of powers to operate

:14:03. > :14:17.without detriment to the people of Scotland. I'd give Wade. This debate

:14:18. > :14:24.is on the Constitution and perhaps Scottish Parliament... Would bring

:14:25. > :14:33.substantial revenue am many jobs to Scotland. Estrogen opportunities,

:14:34. > :14:37.must be about the approach and natural resources. That the member

:14:38. > :14:41.agreed that when it comes to including tax forms and make sure

:14:42. > :14:45.that the distribution of monies is correct, that this is a good

:14:46. > :14:51.opportunity to act on safe ground partnership principles at the very

:14:52. > :14:56.heart of government? I encouraged him to get in touch directly with

:14:57. > :15:02.the brutal secretary of Scotland. We are very proud of the agendas that

:15:03. > :15:04.the government is bringing the rural affairs, and he is bringing the

:15:05. > :15:11.rural affairs, and yet made his case. Returning to the issue of the

:15:12. > :15:15.end of the independence referendum, and Scotland. I commended gentleman

:15:16. > :15:20.party for the having greater strength than the Liberal Democrats.

:15:21. > :15:26.On the issue of the referendum, in order to hold the 2014 referendum

:15:27. > :15:33.that Scottish and UK Government have to agree to in order,... To grant

:15:34. > :15:36.the Scottish Government the legislative compliments to hold a

:15:37. > :15:40.referendum, providing a number of conditions are met, namely that it

:15:41. > :15:46.was held before the end of 2014 and at the ballot box included one

:15:47. > :15:49.question. The SNP amendment to the bill will permanently transferred to

:15:50. > :15:52.the Scottish Parliament the power to legislate for a referendum on

:15:53. > :15:57.Scottish independence. It is right that the Scottish Parliament should

:15:58. > :16:03.decide on this. And not displace. At the First Minister has made clear,

:16:04. > :16:07.the SNP manifesto for next years election will set out our position

:16:08. > :16:10.on a second independence referendum. And considered ring what

:16:11. > :16:14.circumstances what might be appropriate at some point of future.

:16:15. > :16:18.The final decision on whether or not there is another referendum, and

:16:19. > :16:22.with are not Scotland ever becomes independent will always be for the

:16:23. > :16:25.people of Scotland. In the meantime, I would observe that

:16:26. > :16:29.support for Scottish independence has continued to grow, advise people

:16:30. > :16:36.back, watching, I have no doubt that it will probably rise even further.

:16:37. > :16:40.Atlanta-based bowl for the Times found 47% currently support

:16:41. > :16:47.independence, and found that two thirds believe that the country will

:16:48. > :16:53.be independent by 2040. -- 2045. Support for independence has present

:16:54. > :16:59.at the governments have failed to meet its promises. Promoted English

:17:00. > :17:02.falls for English lost. Sent the referendum, the UK governments

:17:03. > :17:06.attitude toward Scotland has angered the great many people and those who

:17:07. > :17:14.are watching proceedings today have good reason to be angered,. They are

:17:15. > :17:19.shown scant regard in the UK Government for the voice of the

:17:20. > :17:25.people of Scotland. Will not lose sight of the financial arrangements

:17:26. > :17:28.that relate to this bill. We've arrested or Scottish questions last

:17:29. > :17:32.week. We understand that the negotiating process is underway

:17:33. > :17:37.between the UK Government and the Scottish Government. Is absolutely

:17:38. > :17:39.critical that that financial framework is negotiated in good

:17:40. > :17:44.faith between both governments, without detriment to the people of

:17:45. > :17:53.Scotland. I am grateful to the right honourable gentleman. Weather would

:17:54. > :17:58.have a little bit more transparency around what discussions are being

:17:59. > :18:00.made to stop anyone, or any party in December from misinterpreting what

:18:01. > :18:09.the fiscal framework is looking to achieve. Than the Scottish people

:18:10. > :18:13.can make their own judgement. I agree with him. I think trespassing

:18:14. > :18:17.is a good thing and I know that our colleagues in the Parliament are

:18:18. > :18:20.happier than we are here by the open approach that the Scottish

:18:21. > :18:24.Government is taking on this matter. Negotiations between both

:18:25. > :18:26.governments, but the Secretary of State could come to this house and

:18:27. > :18:30.provide more information to his satisfaction and mind to. Dismiss

:18:31. > :18:34.commission identified that Scotland budget should be no larger or

:18:35. > :18:39.smaller than simply act as a result of the initial transfer of powers.

:18:40. > :18:42.And recommended the devolution of further tax spending to the Scottish

:18:43. > :18:46.Parliament should be accompanied by an fiscal framework for Scotland and

:18:47. > :18:52.that the UK and Scotland government should work together via the joint

:18:53. > :18:56.committee to revise fiscal funding framework for Scotland. UK and

:18:57. > :19:01.Scottish governments are negotiating the framework on an ongoing basis.

:19:02. > :19:03.It should allow the Scottish Government to pursue its own

:19:04. > :19:07.distinct policies that meet the needs and wishes of the people of

:19:08. > :19:11.Scotland for fiscal devolution to work, it is essential that the

:19:12. > :19:16.Scottish Government to someplace ability. Consistent with the over UK

:19:17. > :19:19.framework. The blogger and adjustment should be robust,

:19:20. > :19:24.transparent, and deliver a fair outcome for Scotland to be agreed by

:19:25. > :19:26.both government. The effect of the adjustment should be assured that

:19:27. > :19:30.the Scottish Government budget should be a rock on big no better or

:19:31. > :19:34.worse off in the long term against the devolved taxes would have raised

:19:35. > :19:37.have been not been devolve. The Scottish Government has said that

:19:38. > :19:41.they will not sign up to any adjustment which is not there to

:19:42. > :19:45.Scotland. This is in-line with the no detriment principle set out at

:19:46. > :19:51.end dismiss commission. Before us today we have 200 amendments and new

:19:52. > :19:56.clauses. They are a massively important to people in Scotland, but

:19:57. > :20:02.sadly not to the Labour Party and the Conservative Party who are in

:20:03. > :20:06.here such small numbers. I was to bring my contribution to a close. To

:20:07. > :20:10.make sure that more members of Parliament for Scotland by the

:20:11. > :20:13.opportunity to take part. The people of Scotland are watching these

:20:14. > :20:18.proceedings. We are told that did this to the mother of all polymers.

:20:19. > :20:22.If it is be the most important legislation about the future of our

:20:23. > :20:26.country, to have a shoehorned into less than one day a proceedings,

:20:27. > :20:30.incidentally for the affirmation of the shadow Secretary of State for

:20:31. > :20:34.Scotland against the wishes of the SNP, who pressed for another day of

:20:35. > :20:39.proceeding to what to look into this in detail, people should look and

:20:40. > :20:42.learn because it is this is the way to bring forward legislation, we do

:20:43. > :20:47.not need a. The Scottish Parliament is a 21st century Parliament, and if

:20:48. > :20:50.ever there was a case but for these problems being exercised all issues

:20:51. > :21:02.that mattered to the people of Scotland, this is an. It is a

:21:03. > :21:12.pleasure to follow the right honourable member. My apology. I

:21:13. > :21:15.have lived in England for in more than 50 -- 15 years. 1's accent

:21:16. > :21:23.that's changed. Is also a pleasure to have listened to the hombre

:21:24. > :21:27.member. I agree with this that is is indeed an important constitutional

:21:28. > :21:32.bill. We are hearing today, Madam Deputy Speaker, how this bill will

:21:33. > :21:37.make the Scottish Parliament, not just a permanent institution in the

:21:38. > :21:44.UK's arrangement, but one of the worlds most powerful devolved

:21:45. > :21:50.parliaments. It will allow workers to leave decisions affecting

:21:51. > :21:52.Scotland to be taken in Scotland. Crucially, it will increase the

:21:53. > :21:56.financial responsibilities of the Scottish Parliament at its

:21:57. > :22:05.accountability to the Scottish public. That is that the opposite

:22:06. > :22:09.member opposite do not wish. Accountability is something that has

:22:10. > :22:12.been lacking in these last eight years and Scotland. Home we hear

:22:13. > :22:15.about the bride and Scotland. Home we hear about the griping grievance

:22:16. > :22:19.constantly being done to let them about decisions and powers, which

:22:20. > :22:24.already rest within the Scottish National Party and Scottish

:22:25. > :22:30.Government. It must be said that Bible for the South today by the

:22:31. > :22:38.Secretary of State and his team contains substantial financial

:22:39. > :22:41.powers, including over, income tax, the devolution of substantial

:22:42. > :22:45.elements of the welfare system, and up range of other powers including

:22:46. > :22:53.constitutional powers and transport. Is a pleasure to give

:22:54. > :23:02.away For their generous way of giving away. Half of the AP will be

:23:03. > :23:05.assigned. There are no powers over VAT and I do fear that the

:23:06. > :23:12.honourable gentleman has misspoken and his excitement to prove his

:23:13. > :23:15.loyalty to his front bench. The Honorable member has are pretty

:23:16. > :23:24.extensive powers when it comes to income tax. Which ask why in the

:23:25. > :23:28.last eight years has the SNP failed to use any of the powers that they

:23:29. > :23:35.currently have. Blaming London and England for all their problems that

:23:36. > :23:45.they create back in Scotland. Along with that house but, that will that

:23:46. > :23:50.Scotland also retain the huge benefits of being a part of the UK

:23:51. > :23:55.of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. The benefits that the

:23:56. > :24:01.people of Scotland, remember those big words, the Democratic majority

:24:02. > :24:14.that voted Tuesday part of the UK last year, sadly that has been

:24:15. > :24:21.lacking. I believe... It would be fair to say that they simply do not

:24:22. > :24:24.want to answer the question of accountability. It is

:24:25. > :24:28.accountability. What have they done with the powers that they have had

:24:29. > :24:31.over the last eight years? They simply blamed London for all the

:24:32. > :24:39.problems that they have created. Not at this moment. The Scotland bill

:24:40. > :24:43.would turn the historic of all parties met the group agreement, an

:24:44. > :24:48.agreement that the members opposite agreed-upon. It will turn into

:24:49. > :24:53.constitutional legislation. And a the Conservative Party will able to

:24:54. > :25:03.lay claim on words as being the true party for the Scots who believe in

:25:04. > :25:14.our UK. That is to say the greater majority

:25:15. > :25:19.These are serious and important issues as far as the constitutional

:25:20. > :25:24.government is concerned. Does he share my disappointment that all

:25:25. > :25:27.that he seems to be hearing from the nationalist benches is the political

:25:28. > :25:33.polls and who stood where and who lost what, and in turn how they will

:25:34. > :25:38.use these powers? My honourable friend is absolutely correct. The

:25:39. > :25:40.base that will -- this grace that we are hearing is the disgrace that the

:25:41. > :25:44.laughter in respect to the discussion that we are having on

:25:45. > :25:50.this constitution or bill that is coming from the benches opposite. It

:25:51. > :25:54.is no surprise that opposition Nationalist MPs are true to their

:25:55. > :25:59.form. They continue to create grievance where there is not. They

:26:00. > :26:03.offer Mr to be people of Scotland when they should be working with all

:26:04. > :26:08.sides of this house better together, that is what the people of Scotland

:26:09. > :26:11.voted for -- they offer mischief. Devoted nearly a year ago for a

:26:12. > :26:17.better United Kingdom of Great Britain and in northern Ireland.

:26:18. > :26:24.They do not want the people of Scotland, constitutional

:26:25. > :26:31.uncertainties he. My constituents are a small and great Ireland

:26:32. > :26:37.nation, and the people of Britain are fed up. The truth is, Madam

:26:38. > :26:39.Deputy Speaker, that nothing will please the honourable members

:26:40. > :26:45.opposite. Nothing at all. That should be knows the price to this

:26:46. > :26:49.side of the House. -- no surprise. All the members opposite want is the

:26:50. > :26:54.end of the UK. Therefore, they will not support any Scotland bill, no

:26:55. > :26:57.matter what powers of devolution might be offered to them. They

:26:58. > :27:09.simply do not want it. I will take the honourable member. I think my

:27:10. > :27:16.honourable friend... Under the new act that he owns a comedy club. Can

:27:17. > :27:19.I ask the honourable member... Is this a metal that will take away

:27:20. > :27:24.basic industrial relations powers away from devolved administrations?

:27:25. > :27:28.We can see Madam Deputy Speaker, that the respect comes from only

:27:29. > :27:32.this side of the House to that side of the House. There is simply no

:27:33. > :27:34.respect. There is no interest in being respectful because the

:27:35. > :27:39.honourable members opposite simply want to destruction of great Britain

:27:40. > :27:45.-- the destruction. We will never permit that. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:27:46. > :27:53.we must remind the House as I did in my meetings speech, I am pleased to

:27:54. > :27:56.see the right honourable member is in his seat. There was another

:27:57. > :27:58.promise and we will never forget this other promise given to be

:27:59. > :28:10.people of Scotland and indeed to behold UK. -- the whole. What was a?

:28:11. > :28:14.He told the voters of Scotland last you that in respect of the

:28:15. > :28:19.referendum, this is a once in a generation, he said "perhaps even a

:28:20. > :28:24.once in a lifetime opportunity! Postal what disrespect the

:28:25. > :28:27.honourable members are showing to the people of Scotland today. Barely

:28:28. > :28:33.able year has passed and they are demanding and other referendum. We

:28:34. > :28:41.can never trust the SNP again with any agreement or referendum. The

:28:42. > :28:44.people of my constituency South Leicestershire him as I mentioned,

:28:45. > :28:51.are fed up with for grievance. They want stability and this bill today

:28:52. > :28:59.provides stability for the whole of the UK. I will give way. You said

:29:00. > :29:03.before that... For your constituents and Leicestershire South was evil

:29:04. > :29:08.and making sure that it went through and we can vote on English laws. The

:29:09. > :29:10.same constituents, year on year, participating in this debate and

:29:11. > :29:16.arguing absolutely nothing good. Hear, hear!

:29:17. > :29:19.I do not understand the honourable gentleman's point copy if he is

:29:20. > :29:23.talking about a member that comes from Scotland representing in

:29:24. > :29:28.English constituency, forget that this is a British pilot. I represent

:29:29. > :29:32.a British constituency in the UK Parliament. We must never forget

:29:33. > :29:37.that. And other argument that we have had for months now is that

:29:38. > :29:46.those members opposite are able somehow, using perhaps psychic

:29:47. > :29:55.hours, to tell us what was in the minds... Let me establish what was

:29:56. > :30:01.in the mind. I campaigned in Scotland, I spoke to thousands. The

:30:02. > :30:11.no voters owed for one simple thing. No to separation and yes to the

:30:12. > :30:15.United Kingdom. . Any other that the honourable member suggest they have

:30:16. > :30:19.voted for instantly based on no evidence. They cannot have it both

:30:20. > :30:22.ways. They cannot determine and tell us why we want independence and at

:30:23. > :30:29.the same time, tell us what was in the mind of the no votes are. The

:30:30. > :30:37.nobles are bolted no because they wanted and loved the United Kingdom

:30:38. > :30:40.of Great Britain -- no voter. The honourable gentleman suggests that

:30:41. > :30:43.we do not know what is in the mind of the no voters. We spent months

:30:44. > :30:50.knocking on doors and speaking to them. Therefore they have told us.

:30:51. > :30:56."I regret it. I voted because I was over at -- I was afraid, but Ira

:30:57. > :31:02.granted." So we are not guessing, they are speaking to us. There are

:31:03. > :31:07.many yes voters who have told me how pleased they were that the no voters

:31:08. > :31:13.won. Look at where Scotland would be today had the people of Scotland

:31:14. > :31:18.voted for separation! Know, to be honourable Lady, I am afraid she is

:31:19. > :31:25.fundamentally wrong. Many of the yes voters are very pleased that the

:31:26. > :31:31.people of Scotland voted sensibly. Not at this stage copy the truth

:31:32. > :31:38.is, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the SNP simply do not want to answer the

:31:39. > :31:43.tilt the Mac legitimate questions that we should be asking today about

:31:44. > :31:46.the Scotland bill -- do not want to answer be legitimate questions. It

:31:47. > :31:52.is time for the honourable members to explain to this house and the

:31:53. > :31:57.people of Scotland how they and tend to use these extensive powers. They

:31:58. > :32:01.always complain, but do not explain how they intend to use these powers.

:32:02. > :32:07.For example how they will sort out the mess of the Scottish NHS. It has

:32:08. > :32:16.given less money than the English NHS IVF in the Scottish government.

:32:17. > :32:19.How were they sort out, Madam Deputy Speaker, the centralising tendency?

:32:20. > :32:25.Take for example, the least Scotland. What a clever idea. Let's

:32:26. > :32:34.centralise power to Edinburgh. That is another example of how they hold

:32:35. > :32:38.power to themselves. How will they ensure, Madam Deputy Speaker, that

:32:39. > :32:41.they will properly finance Scotland's fantastic universities,

:32:42. > :32:46.one of which I was proud to go to? What about answering the questions

:32:47. > :32:49.of universal leaders bring to be SNP government about a lack of money in

:32:50. > :32:52.a problem with government structures that the SNP are inflicting on

:32:53. > :32:57.Scottish universities? And how will they ensure they improve the

:32:58. > :33:02.terminal justice system in Scotland, rather than blaming London in

:33:03. > :33:06.England and creating grievance where there are none? The truth is, the

:33:07. > :33:09.they have been in government for eight long years and it is about

:33:10. > :33:17.time that the accountability should be taken by the SNP government and

:33:18. > :33:21.not blaming London for everything. The truth, Madam Deputy Speaker, is

:33:22. > :33:29.that the Scotland bill, once and for all was so the SNP for what they

:33:30. > :33:34.really are. They are a party failing the people of Scotland. Eparchy,

:33:35. > :33:39.ignoring the wishes of the Democratic majority -- a party. They

:33:40. > :33:43.said no to independence. I will take the honourable member. I am grateful

:33:44. > :33:48.today to be honourable gentleman for giving way. Forgive me that we are

:33:49. > :33:51.members of the benches are not going to sit here and listen to be

:33:52. > :33:55.honourable gentleman due down our Scottish NHS or indeed, due down our

:33:56. > :33:59.university system which provides free education for area people

:34:00. > :34:06.because that is what we believe in and Scotland. He is damaging a

:34:07. > :34:11.willful lack of understanding I think -- demonstrating. We win

:34:12. > :34:17.elections and Scotland. As a fact, we win elections under PR system by

:34:18. > :34:20.majority in Scotland and we won the general election in Scotland. So we

:34:21. > :34:22.are here debating the Scotland bill and it will be great if the

:34:23. > :34:28.honourable gentleman would begin to debate it so we can at maximum

:34:29. > :34:32.powers to the people of Scotland because this government has failed

:34:33. > :34:36.them! Hear, hear! Madam Deputy Speaker, I am signing a

:34:37. > :34:40.light on what is really happening in Scotland under the 1-party state

:34:41. > :34:41.that has become the SNP. The Secretary of State in his team

:34:42. > :34:56.through this bill, board! Order! Honourable members might not

:34:57. > :34:59.agree with what the items of gas honourable gentleman is saying, but

:35:00. > :35:04.it is simply rude to be sold out and make so much noise that he cannot be

:35:05. > :35:06.heard. Just as I have defended the honourable gentleman on the front

:35:07. > :35:09.bench and make sure that he was hurt, so I am defending the

:35:10. > :35:16.honourable gentleman. He will be heard. Exactly, Madam Deputy

:35:17. > :35:18.Speaker. What would the people of Scotland make up the laughter coming

:35:19. > :35:24.from those benches opposite? That is his respect. That is a disgraceful

:35:25. > :35:29.state of Scottish MP of fairs that we have in this house. The truth is

:35:30. > :35:35.that the Secretary of State and his team are presenting a formidable

:35:36. > :35:37.constitutional settlement for the people of Scotland. The people of

:35:38. > :35:44.Scotland want a strong United Kingdom of great Britain. I believe

:35:45. > :35:48.in Scotland having a strong place within the UK. At the truth is there

:35:49. > :35:53.is nothing that this side of the House can offer members opposite in

:35:54. > :35:57.respect of a devout settlement, because they simply don't want one.

:35:58. > :36:02.They want to see an end of the UK. Whereas we want to see it together.

:36:03. > :36:09.LAUGHTER Madam Deputy Speaker, I make my

:36:10. > :36:14.final comments, this is a bill that will settle the argument once and

:36:15. > :36:19.for all. Four in one year's time board two, we will be able to look

:36:20. > :36:27.at Gotland, I will take the honourable lady -- Scotland. He is

:36:28. > :36:32.concluding on the basis that this bill was started of the Smith

:36:33. > :36:37.commission. But a committee of NSP in the Scottish Parliament,

:36:38. > :36:41.including his own party, has said that this does not mean the

:36:42. > :36:44.aspirations of the Smith commission. How does he answer to

:36:45. > :36:49.people in Scotland of his own party who did not believe? Hear, hear!

:36:50. > :36:55.That is simply not the case. Madam Deputy Speaker, this Scottish

:36:56. > :36:59.Parliament's middies are stuck with SNP, MSP. There is knows a price

:37:00. > :37:05.that they're taking the party line. In conclusion, I would offer and all

:37:06. > :37:11.to be side opposite. If they genuinely believe in keeping

:37:12. > :37:17.promises to the electorate, let's start with the right honourable

:37:18. > :37:25.member's promised copy they had the referendum and they lost. Let's work

:37:26. > :37:31.together to strengthen Scotland. Hear, hear!

:37:32. > :37:36.Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I would like to start with a piece of

:37:37. > :37:40.context as well. The reason why we are here discussing this is because

:37:41. > :37:44.of what happened the 18th of September last year. With the

:37:45. > :37:48.Scottish people were invited to give their views in the proposition as to

:37:49. > :37:53.whether Scotland should be a self-governing nation. They voted

:37:54. > :37:58.55-45, no, to that proposition. I do not look into the minds and know the

:37:59. > :38:02.domain they settle well with all of the people that voted in that

:38:03. > :38:05.referendum. But I do know this, that amongst the 55% who voted no, there

:38:06. > :38:10.were plenty of people who thought that the union as exist today is

:38:11. > :38:14.exactly the type of place they would like to live in and they had no

:38:15. > :38:19.quarrel with it. They like the constitutional settlement. Also

:38:20. > :38:23.amongst that percentage, in the group that made the difference to

:38:24. > :38:28.the outcome were people who believed what they were told by the leaders

:38:29. > :38:32.of all the unionist parties, that in fact be voting the 18th of September

:38:33. > :38:35.was not able for the state it was a vote for a new relationship within

:38:36. > :38:41.the union where additional powers were being transferred. That was the

:38:42. > :38:43.valve that was signed by the leader of the right honourable gentleman's

:38:44. > :38:49.party and by two other party leaders who now must be this quite as

:38:50. > :38:53.former. But it was put front and centre in front of the electorate.

:38:54. > :38:58.That is why people voted no to that proposition. We are to have the

:38:59. > :39:04.Smith comes commission to consider what that would be. If you seek a

:39:05. > :39:08.consensus, the bar will be pretty low. But the Smith omission came out

:39:09. > :39:14.with a report on how these proposals to greater devolution might be

:39:15. > :39:17.implemented -- Smith commission. Our party at the time signed off on

:39:18. > :39:20.them, but that this was only a floor, not a ceiling to be

:39:21. > :39:26.aspirations we have for self-government. Said that Smith did

:39:27. > :39:30.not go far enough to satisfy that. Then we get to the beginning of this

:39:31. > :39:33.year we have the first draft of the bill we are now discussing,

:39:34. > :39:37.published by the government. It was quite clear than that in fact I'm of

:39:38. > :39:42.the proposals had been watered down even more. Now we have the Smith

:39:43. > :39:45.commission not delivering their bow and we have a draft bill, not even

:39:46. > :39:50.delivering the Smith commission. That is not just our view, but that

:39:51. > :39:55.certainly was of the right honourable gentleman who spoke last.

:39:56. > :40:00.We would say that, wouldn't we? Because we will be dissatisfied with

:40:01. > :40:03.what ever happened. Maybe we will, but your party may be a unfamiliar

:40:04. > :40:09.with the concept of Mendes and consent, but we are quite relaxed

:40:10. > :40:13.about it. -- meditation and consent. So we put this to be Scottish

:40:14. > :40:16.electorate. We put this to be people of Scotland. We do not have to guess

:40:17. > :40:23.what was in their minds because we know what they did in the general

:40:24. > :40:30.election in May. My honourable friend has explained a quotient from

:40:31. > :40:39.our manifesto in which we stood in that election. Let us be extremely

:40:40. > :40:43.clear. This was not .97 of our manifesto, it was point number one.

:40:44. > :40:46.It was the main steam of the general election of Scotland. It was the

:40:47. > :40:48.central proposition of our party that there should be a additional

:40:49. > :40:52.powers, come to be Scottish government, over and beyond what was

:40:53. > :40:55.in the bill. I would be happy to give weight come above we would get

:40:56. > :41:03.a Joe. LAUGHTER Again, part of the disrespect, Adam

:41:04. > :41:07.Deputy Speaker. Does the honourable gentleman accept that last year's

:41:08. > :41:19.referendum was once in a lifetime? Yes or no? I never said that. I

:41:20. > :41:22.accept... I accept this. And I put it back to you. I think every

:41:23. > :41:27.government should accept this. No government has the right to stand in

:41:28. > :41:32.the way of people who wish a particular point for new direction.

:41:33. > :41:36.Hear, hear! I prefer to make some progress, if I

:41:37. > :41:43.may. I give way in a moment. So we sought a mandate and we got a

:41:44. > :41:49.mandate. And whatever happens here today, please understand that this

:41:50. > :41:52.bill does not satisfy the aspirations of the Scottish people

:41:53. > :41:58.for greater control over their own affairs. This bill is a response to

:41:59. > :42:01.be Smith commission. We are still waiting for what the government's

:42:02. > :42:06.response to be general election was when the people of Scotland made

:42:07. > :42:09.their view quite clear. Whatever happens today, this is not over. We

:42:10. > :42:15.should be coming back during the next five years of our domain on

:42:16. > :42:18.this chamber to argue again and again for more powers for the

:42:19. > :42:22.Scottish Government to satisfy the aspirations of the Scottish people.

:42:23. > :42:26.If that takes a further Scotland bill as some states later on, then

:42:27. > :42:33.so be it. Hear, hear! With the member not understand that

:42:34. > :42:37.the rest of the UK also would like to have a say in this debate. This

:42:38. > :42:44.debate is not just about Gotland, it is about in my case and everyone

:42:45. > :42:48.else, you had a very good indication of how the Scottish, the rest of us

:42:49. > :42:53.have not had the chance to discuss exactly the same points with our own

:42:54. > :43:05.electorate. The message I was given loud and clear from my Northern

:43:06. > :43:08.Irish electorate... Take a more that the message I got from my electorate

:43:09. > :43:11.was that the union is in danger and they do not want it to fall apart.

:43:12. > :43:16.They want all of us to work together. You must speak for the

:43:17. > :43:20.people that elected you and I will speak for the people that elected

:43:21. > :43:22.me. Hear, hear! As far as I'm concerned I am

:43:23. > :43:28.discussing the Scotland bill as a molded. So we have the situation

:43:29. > :43:32.where this bill falls far short of the expectations, not just that this

:43:33. > :43:37.party had, but the people of Scotland. Scottish civic society,

:43:38. > :43:39.trade unions, churches, volunteer organisations, all throughout

:43:40. > :43:44.Scotland they are disappointed at the poverty ambition of the

:43:45. > :43:48.Secretary of State in this government in terms of what is in

:43:49. > :43:53.this bill. Would've come back to be bill itself. I guess is all we have

:43:54. > :43:56.for the present. I don't normally read, but I wanted to read this so I

:43:57. > :44:02.do not get it wrong. The Secretary of State said on the 8th of June" I

:44:03. > :44:05.know absolutely that the Scotland bill does fulfil in full the

:44:06. > :44:10.recommendations of the Smith commission". Obviously he has had

:44:11. > :44:13.the benefit of the summit to consider the situation and to

:44:14. > :44:18.understand whether that statement is in fact true. It most seems that it

:44:19. > :44:26.could not have been true because we have had no less I'm a -- 128

:44:27. > :44:30.amendments from the government to their own bill. I would submit that

:44:31. > :44:33.never in the field of discussion on legislation, has a proposal been so

:44:34. > :44:39.amended by its proposers and still managed to fall so far short of its

:44:40. > :44:41.objectives. Hear, hear! Nonetheless it is welcome that

:44:42. > :44:47.second thoughts are being heard. And that some improvements are being

:44:48. > :44:54.made. I would like to start with is question of permanents. I wonder why

:44:55. > :44:58.it has taken now to happen, but it is good that in New Clause 12 that

:44:59. > :45:01.we have the agreement that the Scottish Parliament will not be

:45:02. > :45:07.taken away come and dissolved, or otherwise removed without first

:45:08. > :45:09.there being an decider amongst the Scottish people and folding in a

:45:10. > :45:14.referendum that that is what they want to do. I am pleased the Mac at

:45:15. > :45:19.the Secretary of State in bringing for that amendment that

:45:20. > :45:24.recognises... July with the people of Scotland, whose government we are

:45:25. > :45:33.discussing. That it lies with the people. I would to discuss our

:45:34. > :45:36.proposal, the New Clause 36, which takes principles are pretty a little

:45:37. > :45:41.bit further. It says that when we come to discussions in the future

:45:42. > :45:44.about the arrangement for the government of Scotland is to be the

:45:45. > :45:49.people of Scotland's Parliament that determine what those discussions are

:45:50. > :45:56.in a timetable on which they are put to the people in a referendum. That

:45:57. > :46:02.seems only a logical extension. If not the Scottish Parliament to

:46:03. > :46:05.consider and respond to demands for a future referendum, where there

:46:06. > :46:09.would be one, then who else should it be? It would be ridiculous that

:46:10. > :46:21.this Parliament should retain that power for itself. I wanted to talk

:46:22. > :46:25.about the sole convention. The commission was why clear when is

:46:26. > :46:27.that the Sewell convention should be enshrined in that you. That bill,

:46:28. > :46:33.after all this time does not make that happen. The Sewell convention

:46:34. > :46:39.is one that that the Imperial Parliament should not interfere in

:46:40. > :46:43.devolved decisions by the Scottish Parliament or other devolved

:46:44. > :46:46.assemblies. So why can we not enshrined that if we pass the SNP

:46:47. > :46:54.amendment today we will make that happen? That one China principle

:46:55. > :47:02.assisted -- that was enshrined the principle of subsidiarity. I want to

:47:03. > :47:07.give him the qualification of the Sewell convention. If he does push

:47:08. > :47:13.that to build this evening, will certainly support that and maybe

:47:14. > :47:19.attack some other mentioned that need to be carried -- other benches.

:47:20. > :47:22.The principle here is quite simple. You do not keep a dog and fight

:47:23. > :47:29.yourself, do you? You have to try and allow organisations to get on

:47:30. > :47:34.with it. I wanted to, and this main response of the honourable member,

:47:35. > :47:38.because I was disappointed that he took almost 2% of the time available

:47:39. > :47:44.to us in this debate at this time to discuss not constitutional

:47:45. > :47:48.principles of the government of Scotland, but in order to pursue his

:47:49. > :47:54.subjects that he feels very concerned about in terms of the

:47:55. > :47:58.decentralization of services. What we are discussing is a change in the

:47:59. > :48:01.Constitution of arrangements between Scotland and England within the

:48:02. > :48:05.Union. We are talking about giving more authority and confidence is to

:48:06. > :48:10.be Scottish Government. That is not the same thing at all as a

:48:11. > :48:14.decentralization of the administration of public services. I

:48:15. > :48:18.think you are wrong, I am will not worded the way in making friends

:48:19. > :48:25.with your debate, to do what you did earlier. Finally, I wanted to talk

:48:26. > :48:31.about fiscal autonomy. I think some of the opponents of this might take

:48:32. > :48:38.this away at the last time, I hope it has been debated... Something we

:48:39. > :48:41.would forget about, but believe me we have not forgot about it. We

:48:42. > :48:44.absolutely want the Scottish Government to have control over the

:48:45. > :48:48.economy in Scotland. We want the ability to grow the economy, the

:48:49. > :48:52.higher tease in line with the aspirations of the people of

:48:53. > :49:00.Scotland -- the priorities in my. I have yet to hear from the honourable

:49:01. > :49:07.member, a principal argument against it. The honourable member describes

:49:08. > :49:10.this black hole of the time, but that is not an argument of

:49:11. > :49:13.principle. That is not an argument against giving the Scottish

:49:14. > :49:20.government control over economic affairs, that is an argument to

:49:21. > :49:22.saying we should make sure we get it right and prepare for that

:49:23. > :49:25.devolution of powers. So I hope wrapped in the future, he might come

:49:26. > :49:29.around to that way of thinking, which is why we shall be objecting

:49:30. > :49:32.to the proposal which is here to give a conservative Secretary of

:49:33. > :49:37.State the power to set up a commission to look into whether or

:49:38. > :49:40.not this could happen. Because the conservative Secretary of State has

:49:41. > :49:45.already made clear his intentions in this regard. Just finishing up, if I

:49:46. > :49:50.may. So we will be putting this again, and it will be by the way the

:49:51. > :49:54.subject of future debate in Scotland. I will tell you what the

:49:55. > :49:57.grandest commission of all will be in this debate. It will be the

:49:58. > :50:00.electorate of Scotland, who in six or seven months' time will get

:50:01. > :50:06.another opportunity to decide whether they want to press ahead and

:50:07. > :50:08.have better economic powers for their government. We will get

:50:09. > :50:15.another mandate and come to make that argument again. My final

:50:16. > :50:18.comments on the framework to which the honourable member has already

:50:19. > :50:25.referred, it is not for us here today. To get involved or even

:50:26. > :50:30.seek... The discussion that is going on between Scottish and UK ministers

:50:31. > :50:34.over the fiscal framework. But we do have to be absolutely clear over

:50:35. > :50:39.what is at stake here. E Smith commission was very clear. It's said

:50:40. > :50:42.that whatever powers are devolved to Scotland, it should be at no

:50:43. > :50:48.detriment. In other words at the point of transfer of the power, the

:50:49. > :50:51.Scottish budget should not suffer as a consequence. I would like to hear

:50:52. > :50:54.from the secretary of state in the summing up that he believes in

:50:55. > :50:58.Appenzell and that that is gaining the discussions that he is having

:50:59. > :51:07.with Scottish ministers -- police in that principles. If this is used as

:51:08. > :51:10.a device... And not provide adequate funding for the delivery of new

:51:11. > :51:16.powers, then he will do a disservice and fuel that we will come back with

:51:17. > :51:24.a new bill which will be considerably improved from this one.

:51:25. > :51:29.Hear, hear! In September 1997, I travelled from

:51:30. > :51:35.Dudley to Glasgow and two and number -- and to Edinburgh to support the

:51:36. > :51:39.campaign. Are a member helping out. There is an awful lot of noise from

:51:40. > :51:44.the chamber. And someone is on their feet speaking. Thank you. Thank you,

:51:45. > :51:48.Madam Deputy Speaker. I remember organising events which I told you

:51:49. > :51:56.the honourable gentleman who has just left the chamber, appearing at

:51:57. > :52:01.the sight of the Royal high school in Edinburgh. To decide what will

:52:02. > :52:07.become the Scottish Parliament. Madam Deputy Speaker, members of the

:52:08. > :52:14.SMP, when I was there hoping the referendum in 1997 -- SNP. They did

:52:15. > :52:18.not object so much been from people of England taking interest and costs

:52:19. > :52:25.politics. That led to be establishment of the Scottish

:52:26. > :52:29.Parliament. It will make it a permanent part of the UK's

:52:30. > :52:34.Constitution. I want to set out as well in the speech come a this will

:52:35. > :52:39.be the -- his will be the shortest we've heard this afternoon. I wanted

:52:40. > :52:43.to set out some comments on greater decentralization. Unlike my

:52:44. > :52:48.honourable member from Nottingham North. The biggest transfer of power

:52:49. > :52:52.since the Scotland Act of 1998. This bill will make the Scottish armament

:52:53. > :52:57.the most powerful devolved parliament in the world. With power

:52:58. > :53:05.over most income tax and much of social security in the way -- I give

:53:06. > :53:07.way. I wonder if the Member for Dudley North can answer a simple

:53:08. > :53:13.question. Does he think these proposals are as close to a federal

:53:14. > :53:20.state as you can be? Just a simple yes or no? In these proposals, are

:53:21. > :53:22.setting out as I have said, proposals was will know the Scottish

:53:23. > :53:27.Parliament the most powerful devolved parliament in the world.

:53:28. > :53:32.That has been the driving force he hide this bill. We pushed to make

:53:33. > :53:37.sure Scotland has all the extra powers, including over welfare, new

:53:38. > :53:41.Social Security system, to ensure it will have the opportunity to

:53:42. > :53:45.mitigate the impact of Tory cuts to tax credits. Despite their

:53:46. > :53:48.desperation to be disappointed, their determination to feel

:53:49. > :53:52.grievance and stoke resentment, the S has said that if you give the

:53:53. > :53:56.Scottish public and the powers it needs to create a new Social

:53:57. > :53:59.Security system in Scotland -- SNP. When asked whether the bill gives

:54:00. > :54:06.power to make them any reduction in tax credits, the SNP spokesperson

:54:07. > :54:12.said "the amendments should give the Scottish Parliament those powers".

:54:13. > :54:17.But despite that, a series of amendments including ten new clauses

:54:18. > :54:20.on national issues, the living wage, employment legislation,

:54:21. > :54:24.industrial relations, benefits, full fiscal autonomy and the power to

:54:25. > :54:28.decide where and when to hold a referendum. What we consider those

:54:29. > :54:31.powers, I think we ought to look first at this administration as

:54:32. > :54:38.exercise the powers it already holds. In 2001, surgeons at a party

:54:39. > :54:43.that is now in the second term of office cannot avoid this possibility

:54:44. > :54:45.for its own fate. I think she is absolutely right on that. I think

:54:46. > :54:51.that is absolutely right. Like Kurt Thomas I think they should be judged

:54:52. > :54:54.on their record of running Scotland's schools and hospitals. I

:54:55. > :54:58.agree with my honourable friend from Nottingham North because the truth

:54:59. > :55:02.is that in Scotland schools, the gaps between the richest and the

:55:03. > :55:08.rest is growing. Its hospitals are struggling. And its housing system

:55:09. > :55:14.is in crisis. The separatist and now the establishment...

:55:15. > :55:22.threatening to strike. Perhaps the honourable gentleman may wish to do

:55:23. > :55:29.a direct comparison of performance before he attacks. I will, to my

:55:30. > :55:36.break of a burning the health service shortly. Before I do that no

:55:37. > :55:40.shouting -- no shutting out please. Is hard to hear what he is saying. I

:55:41. > :55:48.do not think it is appropriate to shop. If people want to speak, they

:55:49. > :55:55.can intervene. No shouting! They are behaving like nationalist bullies.

:55:56. > :56:01.When they try to silence anybody who has a different view and they want

:56:02. > :56:05.to Britain whether you are allowed to take place in a debate in this

:56:06. > :56:10.chamber is where you represent or the action that you have. It is a

:56:11. > :56:17.disgrace. It really is a complete disgrace. Isn't it a disgrace that

:56:18. > :56:23.the people of Scotland, including labour support and conservatives,

:56:24. > :56:25.who voted decisively to reject separatism are being completely

:56:26. > :56:34.ignored by the honourable members today? It is. It is a disgrace. What

:56:35. > :56:38.what is an even bigger disgrace is the state of education and Scotland,

:56:39. > :56:42.run by the SNP. Where the gap between the richest and the rest

:56:43. > :56:45.purse since. Were the poor such as him and Scotland are not getting the

:56:46. > :56:51.opportunity that they should. Young people from deprived backgrounds are

:56:52. > :56:56.facing grants that have been cut, making them the lowest in the UK.

:56:57. > :56:59.Every year, more than 6000 children and Scotland are unable to read

:57:00. > :57:03.properly and people from a wealthy background are twice as likely to

:57:04. > :57:06.get a hype rate than people from deprived backgrounds. People from

:57:07. > :57:10.wealthy backgrounds are twice as likely to go onto higher education

:57:11. > :57:15.than those from deprived backgrounds. In further education,

:57:16. > :57:22.there are 140,000 fewer students going to in Scotland. -The first

:57:23. > :57:30.that's funding for colleges have been cut down. Style had the lowest

:57:31. > :57:39.percentage of college entrance. As I said, grants and Berbers refer

:57:40. > :57:43.students have been cut by 35%. The Honorable Lady a moment ago asked me

:57:44. > :57:48.about the HMS. Did that under the SNP, standard has been slipping.

:57:49. > :57:54.Waiting times have been missed and pressures increasing on nurses and

:57:55. > :57:58.doctors. From the impartial Scottish Parliament Center, show that the SNP

:57:59. > :58:05.have not increase investment in the NHS as much as in England, despite

:58:06. > :58:10.rising demand. The AMD target has not been met for six years. Over

:58:11. > :58:17.400,000 people have had to wait more than four hours in... Says the

:58:18. > :58:23.governor 11. The new house building Glasgow posts did the lowest waiting

:58:24. > :58:31.time targets at this opening. On 77% of patients were saying within four

:58:32. > :58:35.hours. Only one third, I would tell her that only one third of NHS

:58:36. > :58:41.Scotland staff say there is enough staff for them to do the job

:58:42. > :58:46.properly. This by promising Les Obama in the area NHS, spending on

:58:47. > :58:50.health services is at its high since devolution. I also agree with my

:58:51. > :58:54.Honorable friend from Nottingham North on the case of a great

:58:55. > :58:57.centralisation from Holly Road to local authorities. That might enable

:58:58. > :59:02.local authorities and Scotland to tackle the housing crisis across the

:59:03. > :59:07.country. Colonization the biggest housing crisis since the Second

:59:08. > :59:14.World War. Barely 180,000 people on social housing waiting list.

:59:15. > :59:18.Scotland estimated will be more than 500 new homes -- build in the next

:59:19. > :59:25.25 years. In 2007, the year labour left house in Scotland, there were

:59:26. > :59:32.25,000 housing completions. In 2410, there were just 15,000, at 40%

:59:33. > :59:40.reduction. When I'd visited Edinburg last weekend, I was stunned, he

:59:41. > :59:46.thinks it is funny. I think is a disgrace the level... An absolute

:59:47. > :59:49.disgrace for which his colleagues in the SNP should be thoroughly

:59:50. > :59:55.ashamed. Everyone knows that under the conservatives poverty is

:59:56. > :00:00.increasing across the country. I saw many more rough sleepers on the

:00:01. > :00:05.streets of Edinburgh denies he ever on the streets of Birmingham, which

:00:06. > :00:11.is a much bigger city. On for school autonomy, I agree with New Clause

:00:12. > :00:17.one of the case for commission. The I have has had said that the SNP's

:00:18. > :00:21.plan would leave a sample of 6 billion black hole in Scotland. The

:00:22. > :00:28.separatists have absolutely no idea how to feel. A full independent

:00:29. > :00:37.review that labour Scotland for the get the facts. I think having

:00:38. > :00:41.listened to this debate, having I'll be forgiven for thinking that the

:00:42. > :00:46.SNP would rather invent rows with the rest of the UK didn't apply for

:00:47. > :00:50.people across Scotland. Their whole approach is designed to drive

:00:51. > :00:53.resentment of them blame everyone else for their failings. Instead of

:00:54. > :00:57.being held to account for the record, they want to blame the

:00:58. > :01:01.people down south for everything that goes wrong. Everything that

:01:02. > :01:05.goes right in Scotland, is down to the SNP. Error thing that goes

:01:06. > :01:09.wrong, down to the rest of us. The truth is, they are not interested in

:01:10. > :01:12.policy. They are successful at breaking of us. The truth is, they

:01:13. > :01:14.are not interested in policy. They are successful at breaking up the

:01:15. > :01:17.country for having the rejected in the referendum, they try to engineer

:01:18. > :01:21.the separation. Wanted to the English and undermining labour

:01:22. > :01:25.because they know they have more chance of a successful vote in a

:01:26. > :01:29.referendum with a Tovar government in place in Westminster. They are

:01:30. > :01:33.more interested in breaking a Britain that improving the health

:01:34. > :01:38.service, improving education, or providing housing for people in

:01:39. > :01:41.Scotland. It is much easier to blame everything on a supposedly wicked

:01:42. > :01:45.Westminster, then trying to use the powers that they have to improve

:01:46. > :01:50.things in Scotland. In fact, the last thing they want to do is solve

:01:51. > :01:54.the problems in education or health or housing. Then, they would not be

:01:55. > :02:02.able to stoke resentment, fuel girders, and blamed the nasty

:02:03. > :02:05.English for causing it. It is the perpetual that went. Blame everyone

:02:06. > :02:16.else for you fellas, and pretend that everything will be solved if

:02:17. > :02:20.only the country was broken up. In contrast to the last these, which

:02:21. > :02:24.was an ill-informed diatribe of criticism about the Scottish

:02:25. > :02:28.Government, hype right to address the bill that is before us today.

:02:29. > :02:33.I'm going to give what precious time that we have to speak in favour of

:02:34. > :02:38.the amendment 204. This amendment was introduced to the build a

:02:39. > :02:42.subsection of Clause 11 which would move the Human Rights Act from the

:02:43. > :02:45.list protected this provisions in the Scotland Act. This would have

:02:46. > :02:50.the effect of removing the Human Rights Act from the list of

:02:51. > :02:53.enactments, that cannot be defined by the Scottish Parliament. In the

:02:54. > :02:56.Scottish Parliament was able to modify the Human Rights Act, to

:02:57. > :03:01.allow the Scottish Government and the Scottish Parliament to fully

:03:02. > :03:05.establish a human rights regime and Scotland, regardless of where the

:03:06. > :03:10.Human Rights Act was appealed and the Parliament in London. This

:03:11. > :03:13.government, which has no mandate in London -- Scotland, has made clear

:03:14. > :03:16.that it is their intention to repeal the Human Rights Act and replace it

:03:17. > :03:23.with the Bill of Rights. They have made it clear that the scorn

:03:24. > :03:25.European and international norms of human rights and jurisdiction of the

:03:26. > :03:29.European courts, have made clear that they want to replace the Human

:03:30. > :03:32.Rights Act with a watered-down version of the rights and

:03:33. > :03:41.protection, was presently everybody in the UK enjoys. Without that in

:03:42. > :03:45.the Times yesterday. Would you not and Scotland want to have the terms

:03:46. > :03:48.of the debate on human rights and Scotland dictated by this

:03:49. > :03:54.Parliament. Because in Scotland, we have a very different agenda. There

:03:55. > :03:57.is no Man Tate and Scotland overbilling the Human Rights Act.

:03:58. > :04:04.Presuming that that's preserving that with the issue during the

:04:05. > :04:11.campaign. The Scottish National Party has consistently repeal the

:04:12. > :04:15.act, and as my friend has already said, we won the general election in

:04:16. > :04:23.Scotland. 11 includes labour and Liberal Democrats so representatives

:04:24. > :04:34.and Scotland, 58 and 59 Scottish in these polls to repeal the act. Last

:04:35. > :04:39.year, the Scottish Parliament voted by a the balls to ten volts to

:04:40. > :04:43.endorse the act. And civic society in Scotland from the FT UC, to the

:04:44. > :04:49.Church of Scotland are opposed to repealing the act. Nevertheless, the

:04:50. > :04:52.dish UK Government has repeatedly confirmed that they intend to go

:04:53. > :04:59.ahead to repeal the act, and they would apply equally in Scotland and

:05:00. > :05:02.England, Wales, and Arlen. And Scotland, we are very concerned by

:05:03. > :05:07.from the ministers of this government, which is just a believe

:05:08. > :05:12.that they could repeal the act without consulting the Scottish

:05:13. > :05:17.Parliament. Their arguments seems that they would not need a

:05:18. > :05:23.legislative consent motion. But that is incorrect. Human rights are not a

:05:24. > :05:29.reserved matter under the delusion sentiment. Protect the Human Rights

:05:30. > :05:34.Act against modification by the Scottish Parliament, the human

:05:35. > :05:37.rights per se are not the deferred matter. They are not listed assets

:05:38. > :05:44.of months they reserved matters set out in... . It was part of the late

:05:45. > :05:49.Donald Dewar's speech that all methods would be devolved, they were

:05:50. > :05:55.specifically reserves. Human rights are not specifically reserve. Human

:05:56. > :06:00.rights is bred into the Scotland Act. So that the Scottish Parliament

:06:01. > :06:05.and Scottish ministers cannot carry any legislative or act that is

:06:06. > :06:12.incompatible with European Commission human rights. I will make

:06:13. > :06:18.progress. Referred quite a lot from the honourable gentleman, these are

:06:19. > :06:22.important parts of grade concern to the Scottish electorate and I want

:06:23. > :06:32.to make very clear. In Scotland, we have an national election -- action

:06:33. > :06:37.plan for human rights, we have a United Nations commission. And our

:06:38. > :06:42.commitment to human rights extends not only to the, bait but beyond

:06:43. > :06:54.that the social economic rights. Do our part on social justice -- to our

:06:55. > :06:58.part on social justice, so I will give way... For her views. She read

:06:59. > :07:02.this and very important issues. But she is prejudging what the Secretary

:07:03. > :07:06.of State for Justice might bring before this House. It might be a

:07:07. > :07:19.beefed-up human rights regime that the Scottish people will want. It is

:07:20. > :07:24.hard to take that point seriously. Since we have been in this house,

:07:25. > :07:28.the judicious questioning of the Government front bench we have

:07:29. > :07:31.established that one of the Government front bench man concerned

:07:32. > :07:36.with Human Rights Act is a fear that they should have the take account of

:07:37. > :07:42.the decisions of the core. That is all the act says. And fitting that

:07:43. > :07:46.we want to take account of European and international norms, I can only

:07:47. > :07:50.assume that what they want to introduce to to Human Rights Act is

:07:51. > :07:58.something that been considerably watered-down from the EC HR. That is

:07:59. > :08:07.a logical deduction. , give way to the gentleman on the front bench.

:08:08. > :08:11.Thank you very much indeed. I want to make the point that I agree with

:08:12. > :08:15.her what she said about the Human Rights Act, but would she accept

:08:16. > :08:24.that what she says about Scotland also applies to Wales? I do. As our

:08:25. > :08:28.First Minister has made clear, it is our intention to do everything we

:08:29. > :08:32.can to preserve the Human Rights Act for the whole of the United Kingdom.

:08:33. > :08:37.In fact, if the government benches would recognise the human rights are

:08:38. > :08:40.not a reserved matter, and would recognise that there has to be a

:08:41. > :08:47.legislative consent motion, we may be able to help friends across this

:08:48. > :08:52.house. We would abuse a legislative consent to the Human Rights Act and

:08:53. > :08:55.that we will be one way of forgetting it for the whole of the

:08:56. > :09:01.United Kingdom. But the point of my speech today is to leave an

:09:02. > :09:05.amendment which gives the Scottish Parliament the option in the event

:09:06. > :09:08.that all our attempts failed to preserve the Human Rights Act for

:09:09. > :09:12.the whole of the UK. The point of this amendment is to give the

:09:13. > :09:18.Scottish Parliament the chance to fully implement a replacement for

:09:19. > :09:21.the act and Scotland. My concern is this. The government has said

:09:22. > :09:26.repeatedly that they do not recognise the human rights pride of

:09:27. > :09:31.all matter. They said they are reserve. So we have to have a

:09:32. > :09:38.fallback position in Scotland. I the government to remember their respect

:09:39. > :09:42.agenda. Resume to remember and to go back to the Scotland Act with some

:09:43. > :09:45.decent lawyers and look at it carefully and they will see that

:09:46. > :09:50.human rights are not a reserved matter, and that they had devolved.

:09:51. > :09:56.That is a very sizeable body of academic opinion that supports that.

:09:57. > :10:03.The purpose of this of him at 204, is to recognise that when it comes

:10:04. > :10:06.to the proper priorities of... The respect agenda with Steve Prime

:10:07. > :10:09.Minister had spoken of often in the past is consigned to the dustbin of

:10:10. > :10:13.history, along with the assurance that Scotland is an equal partner is

:10:14. > :10:21.a beginning in, and various other promises. Have made it clear that it

:10:22. > :10:25.is a prime intention and the SNP to fight to retain the Human Rights Act

:10:26. > :10:32.for the whole of the UK. However, the disrespect with our previous

:10:33. > :10:36.amendment have been met, and the bridge and exclusion of all Scottish

:10:37. > :10:44.MPs from the joint committee of human rights, makes me and my

:10:45. > :10:51.colleagues gives us no confidence that we will be respected by this

:10:52. > :10:56.Parliament. From a sedentary position, the conservative backbench

:10:57. > :11:03.responding to her point about the SNP being excluded from the human

:11:04. > :11:07.rights committee, saying good. My she take the opportunity to take an

:11:08. > :11:11.intervention on the judgement so he can explain why the party that

:11:12. > :11:18.represents almost all constituencies in Scotland should be excluded from

:11:19. > :11:23.the important committee? I am grateful for him bringing that to

:11:24. > :11:27.attach a. I will be delighted to take the intervention. And to hear

:11:28. > :11:35.why this Honorable member, who I believe is a lawyer of sorts, thinks

:11:36. > :11:39.it is acceptable for all Scottish MPs to be included from the joint

:11:40. > :11:45.committee. Will he tell us and the people of Scotland why he thinks

:11:46. > :11:50.that? What is important is that we have sensible lawyers on the

:11:51. > :11:55.committee. The lady keep stating that is not reserved matter. It is a

:11:56. > :12:04.very obvious reserved matter to the UK Parliament. That is my point. I

:12:05. > :12:08.am sure the viewers in Scotland who are watching now and the people who

:12:09. > :12:13.will read this debate tomorrow will be very interested to hear what the

:12:14. > :12:21.Honorable member has just said. And other interested to hear he thinks

:12:22. > :12:24.it is acceptable to all be elected a of the Scottish electorate are

:12:25. > :12:30.excluded from a joint committee of this house, whose purpose it is to

:12:31. > :12:44.scrutinize bills of this house for human rights compliance. The six

:12:45. > :12:53.unelected from of Lords... I am sure he will. I think what his

:12:54. > :12:59.intervention indicates an underlining. The very reality of the

:13:00. > :13:04.concerned that we have on the side of the House, that the wishes of the

:13:05. > :13:07.Scottish electorate in relation to the preservation of the Human Rights

:13:08. > :13:13.Act, would not be respected. I reiterate that we wish to meet,

:13:14. > :13:17.cause with the Labour Party, the liberal Dems, member from Northern

:13:18. > :13:20.Ireland, and members from every side of the House to preserve the Human

:13:21. > :13:33.Rights Act for the whole of the United Kingdom. I want to, we want

:13:34. > :13:37.to. I said we. Our primary position is that we intend to preserve the

:13:38. > :13:42.act for the whole of this UK. However, the purpose of this

:13:43. > :13:49.amendment is to give us the option to be sure that we can implement...

:13:50. > :13:59.In the event that were not successful at keeping it for the

:14:00. > :14:13.whole of the UK. Lasher, the Prime Minister said the Smith commission

:14:14. > :14:16.to the kick-off party... Ensuring that devolution could not be

:14:17. > :14:23.enforced at the Westminster government. Therefore, I know from

:14:24. > :14:27.the UK governments... The provision should have been included in the

:14:28. > :14:35.exception of the Scotland bill. Better late than never. The Smith

:14:36. > :14:39.commission also reports dated that the commission... Unfortunately, the

:14:40. > :14:43.UK governments proposals in this area all for far short of Smith.

:14:44. > :14:49.Despite the ministers promised to... The UK governments current

:14:50. > :14:58.cause and Parliament would not normally... The governments current

:14:59. > :15:03.position on this method is ridiculous and risk weakening not

:15:04. > :15:06.strengthening the convention. The Smith commission report. The bulk of

:15:07. > :15:10.government that they will not normally legislate in about every is

:15:11. > :15:19.will not suffice. There is a serious concerns that this is president. I

:15:20. > :15:24.can already see where this is where the government encourages to abide

:15:25. > :15:29.areas and Scotland. ... Housing is not. It is devolved to Scottish

:15:30. > :15:32.Parliament. Part of the Immigration Bill, the UK Government want to

:15:33. > :15:43.introduce the right to bring. This will compel landlords and tenants

:15:44. > :15:46.status of. The UK Government will be sent to Scotland to secondary

:15:47. > :15:51.legislation, without a legislative consent of the motion. Debated and

:15:52. > :15:57.passed by the Scottish Parliament. For the more consultation, the

:15:58. > :16:00.Scottish Government... Is said to have been brushed and extremely

:16:01. > :16:05.limited. The Scottish Government are very concerned and this development

:16:06. > :16:16.and the Minister asked for a meeting on this. Has replied he said,

:16:17. > :16:20.overlay to immigration the soloist is not the ball so far. That want to

:16:21. > :16:27.set these measures restrict access to housing. We have artist of the

:16:28. > :16:37.housing is very much devolved. So much for the respect agenda. Much

:16:38. > :16:40.lauded by Prime Minister Cameron. In regard to question the commission on

:16:41. > :16:44.effective the thing as pragmatic and ensure that Elizabeth the Smith

:16:45. > :16:50.commission recommendation. The UK Government approach to policymaking

:16:51. > :16:53.can be jealous. Data but a double for this than the Conservatives must

:16:54. > :17:03.should desire to abolish the Human Rights Act. He is making a

:17:04. > :17:09.compelling argument. Legalizing... I do say to him that if he wishes to

:17:10. > :17:12.push the cause -- cost to vote in a few minutes, will be happy to

:17:13. > :17:18.support him on that. Otherwise, I'm afraid it would go down to the other

:17:19. > :17:24.place to deal with. I appreciate the shadow secretary's answer. I'll that

:17:25. > :17:28.I will my colleagues. The Human Rights Act is vital to as many ways.

:17:29. > :17:37.Good the right life, freedom. Freedom of thought and belief. Right

:17:38. > :17:42.to family life and private life. Right to free elections in education

:17:43. > :17:49.to name a few. Human Rights Act extends to all public authorities of

:17:50. > :17:53.Scotland and local governments. Amendment 204 would absolutely be

:17:54. > :17:55.without that without the bald possibilities for human rights and

:17:56. > :18:03.Scottish Parliament to safeguard human rights. The potential

:18:04. > :18:06.abolition of the Human Rights Act will have... Would be an affront to

:18:07. > :18:13.democracy at the conservative government use slender majority in

:18:14. > :18:18.order to abolish the ad. And the cost of God the UK Government to

:18:19. > :18:26.seek a legislative consent motion and all essences of was Mr. Also

:18:27. > :18:29.apply in the UK Government to set up with the government under

:18:30. > :18:35.legislation to make such an impact in Scotland. No confidence in the

:18:36. > :18:39.last election. And parted that were wimpy in Scotland has rejected each

:18:40. > :18:43.every amendment that has been before. And group that has 95% of

:18:44. > :18:54.Scotland MPs. That that's the question... Ultimately rejected. The

:18:55. > :18:57.conservatives must not ducking and diving one of the bill and stop

:18:58. > :19:00.playing games with Scotland's pair of. The people of Scotland by

:19:01. > :19:09.watching and it's time they are listened to. Are brought to support

:19:10. > :19:16.New Clause 36, which will give parish to Scotland. If it is Friday

:19:17. > :19:19.is mature respect, we're told is, then the Scottish Parliament elected

:19:20. > :19:25.by the Scottish people up at the right to determine its own destiny.

:19:26. > :19:30.The Secretary of State know the other members will be familiar with

:19:31. > :19:36.the words of Lord Cooper from 1953, when he stated that the principle of

:19:37. > :19:40.unlimited sovereignty of Parliament is a distinguished English principle

:19:41. > :19:43.which is not come to buy and Scottish Constitutional Law. In

:19:44. > :19:49.other words, it is the people of Scotland who have solved on. Would

:19:50. > :19:53.come to this house with a mandate from the people of Scotland and a

:19:54. > :19:56.half to be respected. A message to the government benches opposite is

:19:57. > :20:03.that you do the English board for English lords. I thank the

:20:04. > :20:05.gentleman. He stands in front of another distinguished by Honorable

:20:06. > :20:11.member from this house. Does he agree with the member that last

:20:12. > :20:17.years referendum was a once in a generation of there? Yes or no? I

:20:18. > :20:21.always agree we'll my right honourable friend for Gordon, but

:20:22. > :20:25.the point is the Scottish people that are added this Parliament. We

:20:26. > :20:30.have to reflect upon is what is happening in this bill. We were

:20:31. > :20:36.promised the bow to the max. As close to federalism as we could get.

:20:37. > :20:40.It is this house and the government benches that are elected the people

:20:41. > :20:49.of Scotland and the people of Scotland will reflect upon that. I

:20:50. > :20:53.was enjoyed by both friends and favourite making his passionate

:20:54. > :20:58.speeches. For the sake of clarity, that he read the second line of what

:20:59. > :21:02.the Prime Minister said in regard to federalism? Element-the point is

:21:03. > :21:04.that the Scottish people were promised by Gordon Brown that they

:21:05. > :21:10.were going to get parish for purpose. They're going to have a

:21:11. > :21:17.fair house Parliament. Has not been delivered tonight. I do see the

:21:18. > :21:23.Secretary of State saying it is. 70%... Are going to be held at

:21:24. > :21:27.Westminster. A 5% of fans over welfare are going to be held here at

:21:28. > :21:33.Westminster. Madam Deputy Speaker, I did not know what that is, but it is

:21:34. > :21:38.not a powerhouse of Parliament. In light of the challenges that we

:21:39. > :21:41.face, with the credit cuts that which we will debate in the second

:21:42. > :21:47.part tonight, we need to make sure that the Scottish Parliament have to

:21:48. > :21:51.power to protect the people of Scotland. And we said to the Labour

:21:52. > :21:55.Party, come with us, show that resolved to make sure that we can

:21:56. > :22:03.protect the people that we need to in the country of Scotland. If the

:22:04. > :22:06.gentleman is truly passionate about protecting the people of Scotland,

:22:07. > :22:09.he will no doubt get to his feet until December and the people of

:22:10. > :22:13.Scotland that he will restore any losses to tax credits for the

:22:14. > :22:16.Scottish people, has committed to by the Scottish Labour Party. The

:22:17. > :22:22.Scottish National Party has shown... Over the last two years

:22:23. > :22:27.that we saw to litigate the cuts that have come from Westminster.

:22:28. > :22:31.Hundred million pounds has been invested to discuss people to offset

:22:32. > :22:35.the impacts of the bedroom tax. Will fight to defend the interests of the

:22:36. > :22:42.Scottish people, as we have always done. A lot of money house that I

:22:43. > :22:49.like the Labour Party in the benches next newest. We are not prepared to

:22:50. > :22:54.give up the fight on tax credits. Has been rejected by the Lord, but

:22:55. > :23:00.the Scottish Parliament is not... Ruled try to make that has credits

:23:01. > :23:05.are I left off. I am grateful for the humble lady. Is about the

:23:06. > :23:10.kindness aside and what we will strive to do. And Scotland, we

:23:11. > :23:14.believe not and welfare, but Social Security. We believe in offering

:23:15. > :23:17.protection to people of. We also believe in the principle that

:23:18. > :23:21.society is a strong as its weakest link. At very different concept to

:23:22. > :23:25.what we have in the parliament with the cuts that are coming to and

:23:26. > :23:32.because that would not going to come any Autumn Statement. I say to this

:23:33. > :23:35.house, will you respect the sovereignty of the Scottish people

:23:36. > :23:41.who sent us here to the south? I go to ignore the wishes of the Scottish

:23:42. > :23:46.people? I would say to ordinary members opposite, you have been

:23:47. > :23:51.rejected wholesale on the ballot box in Scotland. Thing very carefully

:23:52. > :23:54.before deciding a detailed, with an all-purpose it will be an English

:23:55. > :24:00.beat to it in Scotland. Perhaps in this regard, the question we should

:24:01. > :24:05.put to the Secretary of State, is he Scotland man in the Cabinet? Or is

:24:06. > :24:09.he the cabinets man in Scotland? The Secretary of State should do the

:24:10. > :24:13.honourable thing, except her amendments, and stand up for the

:24:14. > :24:21.people Scotland. What is it to be? And what about the Labour Party?

:24:22. > :24:25.Eparchy that once dominated the political last scheduled Scotland.

:24:26. > :24:30.Maybe not quite yet extinct like the dodo, but more like a beached whale.

:24:31. > :24:33.Jealous that you want to protect Scotland. If you want to make a

:24:34. > :24:41.difference in Scotland, our amendments tonight but will you be

:24:42. > :24:44.siding with their colleagues? Weber need to start learning lessons that

:24:45. > :24:48.Scotland rejected them for a reason. You better start to get on the side

:24:49. > :24:52.with us and the people of Scotland. Tonight is the chance for the House

:24:53. > :25:00.that Scotland expects to be delivered. And the Scotland destiny

:25:01. > :25:05.and Scotland chance. Not by voting for a bill that leaves us with a

:25:06. > :25:10.hand tied behind our back, wide for government that is worse to

:25:11. > :25:14.disadvantage our society. But in this MM and others, allows us to

:25:15. > :25:17.deliver in the interest of our people. We need a Parliament that

:25:18. > :25:21.will allow us to stand up for the people of Scotland and recognised

:25:22. > :25:29.that people are sovereign. Let me finish by quoting Charles Parnell,

:25:30. > :25:38.no man has the right to take the battery to a... No man has the right

:25:39. > :25:42.to... And no further. It is in this context, that we need power to

:25:43. > :25:44.determine and Scotland when and if we want to have a referendum. It is

:25:45. > :26:03.in this contact that behalf should The acid test of this bill is

:26:04. > :26:05.whether it it delivers on the recommendations of the Smith

:26:06. > :26:08.commission. Objectively, assuming with all the amendments the

:26:09. > :26:14.government has put forward, we believe that a bill that we have

:26:15. > :26:19.before us goes a long way to delivering on the Smith commission.

:26:20. > :26:21.Enough to say that the government has delivered on absolutely

:26:22. > :26:26.everything, not to say. They clearly have not. I have to say it is on

:26:27. > :26:33.this government that have come to this point, kicking and screaming.

:26:34. > :26:36.To begin the report of the Smith commission of November 2014, the

:26:37. > :26:41.government has had a long and painful journey. Nowhere is the

:26:42. > :26:47.government's change of heart were clear than its own amendment, New

:26:48. > :26:50.Clause 12. During the beginning stage it is constantly argued on

:26:51. > :26:54.this side of the House to Scottish Parliament and the Scottish

:26:55. > :27:00.government, or to be described as a permanent part of UK's tossed

:27:01. > :27:05.additional arrangements. We argued that the phrase, recognises

:27:06. > :27:07.permanent was less than what was recommended by the Smith commission

:27:08. > :27:13.and that after Scottish Parliament Constitution that the committee

:27:14. > :27:17.argued directly. The use of a phrase recognised as permanent had the

:27:18. > :27:21.effect of weakening the Smith recommendation. I am pleased that

:27:22. > :27:27.the government has listened. Some I think that this is all about

:27:28. > :27:31.constitutional navel-gazing. But it is an extremely important point that

:27:32. > :27:35.the Scottish Parliament is placed on a farm constitutional footing and

:27:36. > :27:40.has the sovereignty of a Parliament, rest of the people of

:27:41. > :27:46.Scotland. However, a question for the Secretary of State. If only the

:27:47. > :27:50.issue of the UK's parliamentary sovereignty. We all know the classic

:27:51. > :27:55.area of UK parliamentary sovereignty is stated in the introduction to the

:27:56. > :28:01.law of the Constitution. According to this classic game, Parliament can

:28:02. > :28:10.make a law on any subject that it chooses and there are no fundamental

:28:11. > :28:12.laws that restrict its powers. The government's New Clause 12 is how it

:28:13. > :28:17.suggests, a departure from that theory and that is something that I

:28:18. > :28:25.would look at. With GE agree with me that apart from the boss 12, we are

:28:26. > :28:29.making moderate but significant constitutional history -- would he

:28:30. > :28:35.agree with me that in New Clause 12. This is essentially technically do

:28:36. > :28:38.not technical in nature, but on the issue of elections I would like to

:28:39. > :28:46.refer richly to amendments are to seven and 43. -- refer briefly. Of

:28:47. > :28:56.course... Any part of democracy on free and open elections. Namely

:28:57. > :29:03.government Clause 13 and causes 45 233. ... The government has the need

:29:04. > :29:09.to involve some of the responsibilities of the electoral

:29:10. > :29:13.commission to see that political parties are an amended so that the

:29:14. > :29:22.functions of electoral commissions are with regard to the electoral

:29:23. > :29:26.Scottish Parliament. Clause 43. With regard to so-called digital service.

:29:27. > :29:31.As I understand it, this relates to the ability to register online for

:29:32. > :29:34.the electoral register. This is very important, given the introduction of

:29:35. > :29:38.individual electoral registration. But I would ask the Minister for

:29:39. > :29:49.clarification on two points. Firstly, of those the reference of

:29:50. > :29:53.Scottish ministers... Is replete in Clause 43. I would appreciate if the

:29:54. > :29:56.government would explain what exactly is this negative procedure

:29:57. > :30:01.and how it would work copy that is my first question. The second

:30:02. > :30:03.question is with regard to the online registration system, is it

:30:04. > :30:07.possible that there could be confusion about which electors are

:30:08. > :30:15.able to vote in which elections? The Scottish Parliament am a quite

:30:16. > :30:19.frankly, has decided the for 16-17 -year-old for all Scottish

:30:20. > :30:21.elections. These individuals will be denied a vote in Westminster

:30:22. > :30:26.elections. Is that not a danger that it could be widespread confusion,

:30:27. > :30:28.particularly of the online registration technology is being

:30:29. > :30:35.used for both Westminster and Scottish elections? Now, Madam

:30:36. > :30:39.Deputy Speaker, implying pleased that the government has a similar

:30:40. > :30:46.debate that had taken place as far as Clause 12 is concerned, I am

:30:47. > :30:50.disappointed that the government has not brought forward amendment on the

:30:51. > :30:57.school convention and its working -- Sewell convention. We argued, as did

:30:58. > :31:00.the SNP, that we were concerned of the interpretation of the Sewell

:31:01. > :31:05.convention. Concerned about general default competence. -- devolved.

:31:06. > :31:08.There is impotence of the word normally. As I said during the

:31:09. > :31:13.committee stage, how long is a piece of string? The word normally is

:31:14. > :31:23.legally imprecise and that is why we are moving amendment seven, eight,

:31:24. > :31:27.nine, and ten. The name of the right honourable member was put forward in

:31:28. > :31:32.a minute, but sadly cannot be rehearsed today. Numbered New Clause

:31:33. > :31:41.35, in the name of the honourable Member for Moray, sticks to place on

:31:42. > :31:49.putting. We are happy to give a new laws our support if he pushes it to

:31:50. > :31:52.a vote. If we are supporting a member for New Clause 35, we are

:31:53. > :31:58.certainly not supporting his New Clause 36. This relates to future

:31:59. > :32:03.referendums on Scottish independence. A statement to the

:32:04. > :32:10.press over the weekend, the honourable Member for Moray said,

:32:11. > :32:12.they called him whether or not Scott in -- Scotland is a referendum in

:32:13. > :32:15.the future should be up to the people and in the hands of the

:32:16. > :32:20.Scottish Parliament rather than the UK Parliament. I will give way. The

:32:21. > :32:24.Smith commission, Clause 18, it is agreed that nothing in this report

:32:25. > :32:27.coming from an independent country, in the future should the people of

:32:28. > :32:30.Scotland so choose a copy of the people of Scotland did not have the

:32:31. > :32:32.power to choose, how is that Clause to stand the test of time? Hear,

:32:33. > :32:37.hear! I might be slightly mistaken, but I

:32:38. > :32:47.thought the Scottish people had making the decision. It is a very

:32:48. > :32:50.wear and firm decision. If there is a move towards having a referendum

:32:51. > :32:56.in the future, I will give way in a second... In terms of the history of

:32:57. > :33:01.this. The referendum happen in September and the Smith commission,

:33:02. > :33:04.which this is a direct quote from, happened after that. So all parties

:33:05. > :33:08.decided that nothing to prevent Scotland from coming independent if

:33:09. > :33:10.it does so wish. Yet here it is trying to do exactly that. Hear,

:33:11. > :33:19.hear! No one is in content to give the

:33:20. > :33:22.people of Scotland anything. I would remind him that there was a

:33:23. > :33:31.prominent member of the SNP that said the globe do not gold plating

:33:32. > :33:33.was out... The situation exists that the Scottish Parliament has the

:33:34. > :33:40.power to have a referendum. What this amendment seeks to do is take

:33:41. > :33:46.away the caveats which are based on discussion, which are all the more

:33:47. > :33:49.reasonable format. I will give way. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I am

:33:50. > :33:51.grateful to him for giving way. Would you agree with me that this

:33:52. > :33:55.obsession with organising and other referendum proves a central point

:33:56. > :33:59.that has been made by myself and other in this debate, which is that

:34:00. > :34:04.there must more interested in breaking up written than getting on

:34:05. > :34:07.and delivering for the people of Scotland and improving the health

:34:08. > :34:10.service and the education system, and providing the homes that people

:34:11. > :34:17.Scotland need -- breaking up written? I couldn't agree more.

:34:18. > :34:25.Sensually devolution is not about partnership, divorce, separation,

:34:26. > :34:27.breaking a Briton. It is about establishing partnership. So the

:34:28. > :34:31.people of Britain can't work together in a harmonious way. I will

:34:32. > :34:35.give way again, for the third time. It sounded like he said the Scottish

:34:36. > :34:39.Parliament has the power to call a referendum. It does not have the

:34:40. > :34:46.power. That is why we want to give it the power with our amendment.

:34:47. > :34:49.What the amendment essentially seeks to do is to take away the caveats.

:34:50. > :34:56.The caveats are essential in defining the partnership. It is not

:34:57. > :35:01.simply the question of the Scottish Parliament deciding that it by

:35:02. > :35:05.itself wants to do it. I give way yet again. Oh I am very grateful to

:35:06. > :35:08.be honourable gentleman. He is a very gracious with his time. This is

:35:09. > :35:12.an important point because it does come down to the issue as to whether

:35:13. > :35:14.or not the Scottish people are electing a government that wants to

:35:15. > :35:19.have a referendum of independence, has the power to do so. If you do

:35:20. > :35:21.not accept our amendment tonight, that power resides with Westminster.

:35:22. > :35:25.It does not resign with the Scottish people, it does not reside with the

:35:26. > :35:31.Scottish Parliament. Has got nothing to do with caveats. I think it is

:35:32. > :35:35.very sad indeed for people of Scotland, that there is an obsession

:35:36. > :35:50.with having a referendum at all costs. I've given away four times

:35:51. > :35:56.already. The situation is... We are not prepared to have a referendum,

:35:57. > :35:59.not prepared to have the Constitution be hijacked by this

:36:00. > :36:04.issue of a referendum. To try to maneuver the situation which it can

:36:05. > :36:09.have a break-up of the UK. That it's not what devolution is all about.

:36:10. > :36:14.That is valid the Smith commission is all about. It is about the people

:36:15. > :36:20.working together. If I can make a little bit of progress, if I may.

:36:21. > :36:25.The fact is that these issues are not dry constitutional issues, but

:36:26. > :36:29.had impact on everyday life about what is happening in Scotland with

:36:30. > :36:32.regard to be trade union bill -- the right constitutional issues. Under

:36:33. > :36:40.the Sewell convention, there is need for a legislative of emotion. --

:36:41. > :36:43.consent motion. If it is to apply in Scotland and any DeVault area.

:36:44. > :36:49.According to a strict legal interpretation, the bill coming

:36:50. > :36:57.before the House seeks to amend the trade union and labour consolidation

:36:58. > :37:01.at 1992. Therefore it is argued that is not involve areas of devolved

:37:02. > :37:07.competence. However in practical terms, during very much areas of

:37:08. > :37:10.devolved competence, by placing requirements on local authorities in

:37:11. > :37:15.Scotland. It is wrong we would argue that the UK government is able to

:37:16. > :37:22.legislate from devolved authorities in this way. That is why all labour

:37:23. > :37:26.councils in Scotland, and by the SNP, have agreed a stance on

:37:27. > :37:30.noncompliance. The Westminster government has not sought a

:37:31. > :37:32.legislative consent motion from the Scottish Parliament, but Labour will

:37:33. > :37:39.bring forth a legislative consent motion in order to the nightly build

:37:40. > :37:44.up confidence of a Scotland devolved service. I mentioned local

:37:45. > :37:50.authorities. I would like to draw attention of the House as I have

:37:51. > :37:55.already done on a number of occasions, to New Clause seven,

:37:56. > :37:58.eight, and nine. In the name of honourable member for Nottingham.

:37:59. > :38:01.These amendments made the point that two supporters of devolution, the

:38:02. > :38:06.power should reside to the most appropriate level as close to be

:38:07. > :38:09.people as possible. They recognise that there is a real issue in

:38:10. > :38:15.Scotland, that discusses government seems to many people to be more

:38:16. > :38:20.concerned about exercising power itself, rather than empowering

:38:21. > :38:25.people in their local communities. The SNP claim to be good Europeans,

:38:26. > :38:28.but I am afraid that they shall very little practical support for helping

:38:29. > :38:34.a European principle of bringing power closer to be people. You have

:38:35. > :38:37.a chance to put it right tonight. As was noted when we discussed it in

:38:38. > :38:42.committee of the whole house, part two of the bill evolves new powers

:38:43. > :38:47.to Scotland over income tax and other taxes. The Scottish government

:38:48. > :38:51.will happen so over it income tax rates and thresholds and complete

:38:52. > :39:02.freedom over the levels of which those rates and thresholds are set

:39:03. > :39:12.-- full power over. ... Income tax over 2013-14. That effect

:39:13. > :39:16.considerable sum. A degree of response ability on the Scottish

:39:17. > :39:21.Parliament. If they wish the Scottish Parliament, whatever its

:39:22. > :39:24.political complexion, would increase liability could. Scottish Labour has

:39:25. > :39:29.already said out how we would use those new powers. We would reset the

:39:30. > :39:37.additional rate to 50 pants, so that those who aren't over ?150,000

:39:38. > :39:40.contribute a little more, as I think most fair-minded individuals would

:39:41. > :39:47.agree that they could afford to do -- 50 pants. We would not implement

:39:48. > :39:56.the government's plans to increase the higher rate threshold. Instead

:39:57. > :39:59.we would... Estimated to be over ?44 billion, a part of the UK

:40:00. > :40:05.government's work penalty. That is tax credit cut. This decision will

:40:06. > :40:12.benefit a quarter of a million Scottish families who are now he's

:40:13. > :40:15.having to pay ?1300 a year because of this government. That is an

:40:16. > :40:20.example of what can be done with new powers if we have the courage and

:40:21. > :40:29.conviction and the political will to use them correctly. We, as Labour

:40:30. > :40:34.members, support these powers and so it will come as no surprise that we

:40:35. > :40:40.remain utterly convinced by amendment two to four from the SNP.

:40:41. > :40:46.This amendment would go beyond and that will be Scottish Parliament to

:40:47. > :40:50.remove reservations and taxation, borrowing and public expenditure --

:40:51. > :41:02.amendment 224. We have learned over the last few minutes how confused

:41:03. > :41:06.the SNP are on this issue of FFA, fiscal devolution on autonomy. The

:41:07. > :41:10.confusion was clearly shown during the committee stage of this bill

:41:11. > :41:15.when I asked that economics spokesman, the future as think the

:41:16. > :41:18.government would increase operation times -- SNP government? The

:41:19. > :41:27.response was yes. A future labour government would increase it.

:41:28. > :41:30.Decrease it, keep it the same, but use amendment in way. In other

:41:31. > :41:36.words, the SNP are totally utterly confused. Is taxation of powers for

:41:37. > :41:43.the sake of it, not for what they want to do with it. It is simply not

:41:44. > :41:49.thought out. I will give way. Does he, Ira for to his own New Clause

:41:50. > :41:52.one. Do I take it now because the Labour Party would want to have an

:41:53. > :41:58.independent commission look at fiscal autonomy that they are

:41:59. > :42:02.increasingly open-minded about a? And does he think this removes

:42:03. > :42:09.mentality in Scotland, if they had to take forward the decisions it

:42:10. > :42:12.will be difficult for them to blame the UK? We believe that the facts

:42:13. > :42:16.should be allowed to speak for themselves. It is our view that the

:42:17. > :42:21.case has not been made and cannot be made. But what we will do not want

:42:22. > :42:25.to see is a transpiring independent body who will come to that

:42:26. > :42:30.conclusion. We are confident that they will. I will give way. I am

:42:31. > :42:34.grateful to the honourable member for giving way. Would he not agree

:42:35. > :42:38.with the shadow Chancellor who also walked through those lobbies with

:42:39. > :42:44.us, for full fiscal autonomy earlier this year? He did it for his own

:42:45. > :42:48.reasons and for different reasons. LAUGHTER

:42:49. > :42:53.But for me, what was really obvious and to most telling thing was that

:42:54. > :42:58.it was the Tory right and be SNP nationalists who are as one. English

:42:59. > :43:07.nationalism and Scottish nationalism together! That I thought looked the

:43:08. > :43:13.most telling point. They went through, the Nationalists and the

:43:14. > :43:23.extreme right, says it all. I will give way. I think my honourable

:43:24. > :43:29.friend for giving way to copy I know it means a student of history. You

:43:30. > :43:33.would know there is a test... Of political institutions. It is about

:43:34. > :43:37.the practical fat that institutions make. Would he agree it would be

:43:38. > :43:41.useful to know from the SNP what rightly they intend to do with these

:43:42. > :43:52.powers? Yes indeed. The rhetoric as we have heard this afternoon. Strong

:43:53. > :43:56.on rhetoric. Not from us longer I suspect, because the Scottish people

:43:57. > :44:02.will rumble when they go beneath you rhetoric and find that there is

:44:03. > :44:07.little substance of there. He is very generous. But could just be

:44:08. > :44:14.that the Tory right he described it, and the labour chattel Chancellor --

:44:15. > :44:17.shadow Chancellor both recognise that the one way to defeat

:44:18. > :44:22.nationalism is actually to have a real Parliament in Scotland, with

:44:23. > :44:26.full power over what it taxes and spends? And at that stage the SNP

:44:27. > :44:34.would have to take response ability for their own actions, they would

:44:35. > :44:40.become a grown-up political party? One of the key reasons why we are

:44:41. > :44:43.broadly in support of what the government are belatedly proposing

:44:44. > :44:48.is that we believe that we will give new responsibilities to the Scottish

:44:49. > :44:50.Parliament to achieve, or try to achieve, substantial things on

:44:51. > :44:55.behalf of the Scottish people. At think it is the case to say. The

:44:56. > :45:02.response ability and power global together. That is why these

:45:03. > :45:05.measures, I stand forward. And moment ago he expressed surprise

:45:06. > :45:10.that the SNP and Tory right were bolting together on full fiscal

:45:11. > :45:13.autonomy. News as to why he would be surprised, given that he was their

:45:14. > :45:21.SNP who brought down the labour government... Hear, hear!

:45:22. > :45:28.I don't know what she is shopping for, given that she wasn't until

:45:29. > :45:33.very recently a Tory herself! 18 years of Thatcherism and all the

:45:34. > :45:41.problems for which are now whingeing. LAUGHTER

:45:42. > :45:48.That is all I would say, it is likelier, isn't it? -- quite clear.

:45:49. > :45:58.That have been humbled. Progress in a slightly more sedated manner, as I

:45:59. > :46:01.may. Clause one established an independent commission on full

:46:02. > :46:08.fiscal autonomy to scrutinize the potential on Scotland's economy and

:46:09. > :46:13.public finances. The New Clause will require the Secretary of State for

:46:14. > :46:17.Scotland to establish an independent commission... At first appointed in

:46:18. > :46:20.consultation of a Treasury select committee and Scottish affairs

:46:21. > :46:26.committee. And they will publish a report by the 31st of March, 2016,

:46:27. > :46:33.setting an analysis objective we in ferry of the full policy implement a

:46:34. > :46:38.full fiscal autonomy -- fairly. Could I say that this is also

:46:39. > :46:44.another important issue. If we moved to amendment 27 and 29, these were

:46:45. > :46:49.replaced an additional ?5 billion of reserves under direct control of the

:46:50. > :46:53.Scottish Parliament, by assigning 100% of Scottish revenues

:46:54. > :46:59.understanding and reduced rate to the Scottish Parliament, as opposed

:47:00. > :47:08.to be 50% B bill currently allows for. Of course under regulations, do

:47:09. > :47:13.not allow for differential rates in the same state. The actual setting

:47:14. > :47:16.of VAT would have to remain a reserve copy however this is not an

:47:17. > :47:20.argument against assigning the revenues generated in Scotland to be

:47:21. > :47:24.Scottish consolidated. As was said at the report states, and I quote"

:47:25. > :47:32.given that the Scottish Government have no control over VAT, might sign

:47:33. > :47:35.on behalf of a? Why not find all of it? Be Scottish Parliament could

:47:36. > :47:39.then write the benefit. If there is a benefit from the entire rise of

:47:40. > :47:41.VAT in Scotland, rather than just half of it, and we take

:47:42. > :47:46.responsibility if it was a shortfall. Not for half of that

:47:47. > :47:51.shortfall copy that would be a good thing." Those were not my comments,

:47:52. > :47:56.Madam Deputy Speaker. But the comments of another member of the

:47:57. > :48:00.opposition. They are the comments of the honourable member for Dundee

:48:01. > :48:05.East, who also happens to be the SNP's economy spokesperson. Very

:48:06. > :48:10.odd, given his full-blooded support for devolving 100% of VAT. The SNP

:48:11. > :48:16.has not actually got the amendment would would produce this effect.

:48:17. > :48:20.When the Labour Party table an amendment are doing that, do you

:48:21. > :48:24.think the honourable member welcomed it? No, they did not. Is that they

:48:25. > :48:32.issued a press release in which the honourable member for Dundee East

:48:33. > :48:37.himself denounced a proposal as a " gimmick". I don't think it is a

:48:38. > :48:46.gimmick, and I don't think the people of Scotland would either.

:48:47. > :48:49.Onto New Clause four. New income tax powers in Scotland. Guard against

:48:50. > :48:57.unintended and negative consequences for charities. And deputy speaker,

:48:58. > :49:00.this is worth over ?1 billion a year to charities in over 100 medium

:49:01. > :49:06.pounds in Gotland. Any moving operation must therefore be closely

:49:07. > :49:14.guarded against -- ?100 million in Scotland. Because seed with this is

:49:15. > :49:19.that get 80s UK wide, linked to tax may and predicated on a single tax

:49:20. > :49:22.structure -- gift aid. I would welcome this response. Any assurance

:49:23. > :49:28.which he could provide the charities on Gotland in this issue of gift

:49:29. > :49:34.aid. New Clause 11. Would require the Secretary of State to labour for

:49:35. > :49:38.the House... A full record including minutes of meetings and

:49:39. > :49:42.correspondence and ministerial level of discussions, between the

:49:43. > :49:44.Secretary of State the Treasury and the Scottish ministers, regarding

:49:45. > :49:48.and unbudgeted expenditure to be voted by the parliament. Before it

:49:49. > :49:55.gave authorisation of payment to grasp to be Scottish

:49:56. > :50:01.consolidated... We would be happy to work with the Scottish Parliament

:50:02. > :50:04.with such a report. It is similarly in the gift of the Scottish

:50:05. > :50:09.government to produce their own report, and I hope they would share

:50:10. > :50:11.it with us as well. That what we would have regular updates as to the

:50:12. > :50:16.health of the negotiations which take place currently to a largest

:50:17. > :50:22.man, behind closed doors. The purpose of this Clause is to ensure

:50:23. > :50:25.that Pearcy and accountability for processes leading to the annual

:50:26. > :50:34.settlement between Treasury and be Scottish ministers -- transparency.

:50:35. > :50:42.Because is worth noting that the Scottish Parliament's finance

:50:43. > :50:52.committee the -- Jon Young produced a report. ... Is critical and

:50:53. > :50:56.described as taking waste "below the radar". It is said the

:50:57. > :51:01.recommendations should be said "more formal and transparent". The

:51:02. > :51:04.committee also recognise a consideration should beginning to

:51:05. > :51:08.establish an independent body to advise the cancellation of a back

:51:09. > :51:15.rent and to establishing an independent arbiter to dissolve the

:51:16. > :51:20.disputes and issues. The party would certainly support any such news

:51:21. > :51:27.developing on that. In the interest of introducing greater

:51:28. > :51:31.accountability, transparency to negotiations on New Clause 11 has

:51:32. > :51:37.been tabled. Madam Deputy Speaker, thank you for your generosity in

:51:38. > :51:42.allowing me to speak. These are important issues. I would hope the

:51:43. > :51:47.House would give sympathetic consideration for comments I made

:51:48. > :51:53.this evening. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I think during

:51:54. > :51:57.at least part of this debate some of the amendments that have been tabled

:51:58. > :52:04.both by the government and opposition members have been

:52:05. > :52:09.addressed. I am very pleased, unless type picked it up wrongly, in the

:52:10. > :52:12.course of the debate. Is that there is no one suggesting that we would

:52:13. > :52:18.wish to oppose the amendment which the government has brought forward.

:52:19. > :52:22.Madam Deputy Speaker, I am afraid today's debate on full fiscal

:52:23. > :52:27.economy Bill Matt economy has been for me and unwelcome case of deja vu

:52:28. > :52:31.-- full fiscal autonomy. I'm afraid that includes my honourable friend

:52:32. > :52:36.from Gainsborough. It would certainly be unwelcome to be people

:52:37. > :52:41.of Scotland it is ever came to pass. Just a moment. It will come as no

:52:42. > :52:46.surprise that the government is not excepting the SNP's amendment

:52:47. > :52:49.relating to full fiscal autonomy. This government is clear it is not

:52:50. > :52:54.in the interest of the people of stop and. We simply do not need a

:52:55. > :52:58.commission either stopping because the analysis has been done.

:52:59. > :53:02.Institute of fiscal studies has estimated that full fiscal autonomy

:53:03. > :53:08.would mean Scotland having almost ?10 billion left to spend by the

:53:09. > :53:13.last year of this parliament. That is not a good deal for Scotland, and

:53:14. > :53:18.his government will not supported. I think the Secretary of State. What

:53:19. > :53:27.is ironically a true sense of deja vu is the government despite...

:53:28. > :53:34.Tories will deny people of Scotland denying what they want. That is the

:53:35. > :53:38.real sense of deja vu. Hear, hear! There is not a shred of evidence to

:53:39. > :53:44.suggest that the people of Scotland wonderful fiscal autonomy. They

:53:45. > :53:46.voted in a referendum, which I know is rather an inconvenience for the

:53:47. > :53:52.SNP on the road to independence, but they voted decisively to remain

:53:53. > :53:58.within the UK. I need to deal with some of the specific and important

:53:59. > :54:07.issues raised during the debate. Such as gift aid. I do commend the