Part One

:00:09. > :00:20.Order! Order! Before I look to the Leader of the House To move the

:00:21. > :00:25.business of the House motion, that is to say, motion number ond, it

:00:26. > :00:33.might be for the conveniencd of the House to know that no fewer than 157

:00:34. > :00:39.colleagues are seeking to c`tch the eye of the chair today. The chair

:00:40. > :00:46.will do his best to accommodate as many colleagues as possible. I would

:00:47. > :00:54.ask that colleagues do not come to the chair to enquire whether you are

:00:55. > :00:58.going to be called and when, or to enquire on the half of a colleague,

:00:59. > :01:05.or to cause others to enquire on your behalf or that of others. I

:01:06. > :01:09.understand the interest, we have done our best and will do otr best,

:01:10. > :01:14.please be patient and hope for the best. Needless to say for the

:01:15. > :01:18.benefit of new members, bear in mind if you wish to speak that it is

:01:19. > :01:24.imperative you remain until all of the front bench speeches have been

:01:25. > :01:30.completed. Thereafter, people must use their own judgment and come and

:01:31. > :01:39.go if they wish, but try and remain in The Chamber for as much of the

:01:40. > :01:46.debate as possible. The question is is on the order papers. We shall be

:01:47. > :01:50.dealing today with the security of our country, the safety of the

:01:51. > :01:55.people of Syria, and the lids of our Armed Forces, which is why we asked

:01:56. > :02:01.two weeks ago for a two-day debate. I request my right honourable friend

:02:02. > :02:03.repeated on Monday the. Members had a chance to make proper

:02:04. > :02:11.contributions and an opporttnity to reflect on the argument. As you have

:02:12. > :02:17.said, 157 members have put hn to speak, 87 from this side of the

:02:18. > :02:22.House, 80 from the other side. Plus the front bench speeches whdre

:02:23. > :02:28.members will want to press linisters on their argument and their case.

:02:29. > :02:34.You will be announcing soon that there is a five-minute limit on

:02:35. > :02:40.speeches and this will almost certainly be reduced to four minutes

:02:41. > :02:45.and we minutes, and even so, not all members will be able to spe`k in the

:02:46. > :02:54.debate today. I gently say to the Prime Minister, this is no way to

:02:55. > :03:03.proceed if you really want to take the House and country with xou. It

:03:04. > :03:09.is important that we on these benches put forward our profound

:03:10. > :03:13.disappointment of a guillothne motion after rejecting the calls and

:03:14. > :03:18.requests for a two-day debate. This could easily have been postponed. I

:03:19. > :03:21.think the public expects us to clear the decks and get down to ddbating

:03:22. > :03:27.the important issue of the day. It is likely that considering ` quarter

:03:28. > :03:31.of the members of this Housd want to speak today, people will be

:03:32. > :03:35.disappointed. Every member has the right to represent their

:03:36. > :03:39.constituency on an issue of such importance, and our constittents

:03:40. > :03:44.have the right to listen to their MP. This is no way to do business

:03:45. > :03:52.and we remain disappointed that the government has not made mord time

:03:53. > :04:03.for this debate. Since we h`ve 57 people waiting to speak, it would be

:04:04. > :04:08.better if we got on with thd debate. I will not be making any

:04:09. > :04:13.announcements soon about anx time limit, and I have given absolutely

:04:14. > :04:19.no honourable or right honotrable member any reason to believd that I

:04:20. > :04:29.shall. If I have something to say, I will say it's to the House. -- it.

:04:30. > :04:38.Very briefly... I wish to r`ise an error on the order paper. Mx name is

:04:39. > :04:46.erroneously been added. I al great great fault. -- I am grateftl. She

:04:47. > :04:50.wishes to be withdrawn from that amendment and that is noted. Perhaps

:04:51. > :04:55.if she would be kind enough, we can leave it there. The question is is

:04:56. > :05:03.on the order paper in respect of motion number one. As many of that

:05:04. > :05:12.opinion... On the contrary... I think the ayes habit. The axes

:05:13. > :05:15.habit. -- have it. I have sdlected amendment the in the member of Mr

:05:16. > :05:20.John Barron and others. The amendment will be debated together

:05:21. > :05:26.with the main motion. At thd end of the debate, he will be invited to

:05:27. > :05:30.move the amendment formally and the questions will then be put first on

:05:31. > :05:37.the amendment and then on the main motion. We now come to motion number

:05:38. > :05:45.two on Isil in Syria United Nations Security Council Resolution 224 . I

:05:46. > :05:49.wish to call the Prime Minister Mr Speaker, I beg to move the lotion on

:05:50. > :05:53.the order paper in my name `nd my right honourable friend. Thd

:05:54. > :06:03.question before the House today is how we keep the richest people safe

:06:04. > :06:07.on the threat posed by Isil. -- British. This is not about fighting

:06:08. > :06:14.terrorism, it is about how best we do that. I respect that govdrnments

:06:15. > :06:18.have had to fight terrorism and take the people with them as thex do so,

:06:19. > :06:22.and I respect the balloon come to a different view from the govdrnment

:06:23. > :06:26.and the 1 I set out today, `nd those who vote accordingly, and I hope

:06:27. > :06:34.that provides some reassurance to members right across the Hotse. I'm

:06:35. > :06:39.happy to give way. I thank the Prime Minister and he is right in his

:06:40. > :06:44.opening statement to say how important it is due respect opinion

:06:45. > :06:50.on all sides of this House, so will he apologised for his remarks last

:06:51. > :06:57.night against his right honourable friend 's? I respect people who

:06:58. > :07:00.disagree, I could not be cldarer. I respect that governments of all

:07:01. > :07:05.colours have had to fight tdrrorism and I respect we are all discussing

:07:06. > :07:12.here how to fight terrorism and not whether to fight terrorism. In

:07:13. > :07:17.moving this motion... Mr Spdaker... Order! The Prime Minister is clearly

:07:18. > :07:24.not at this stage giving wax. He has the floor. I will take dozens of

:07:25. > :07:31.interventions in the time I have stopped and conscience -- conscious

:07:32. > :07:35.of not taking too much time. Let me make progress at the start. In

:07:36. > :07:39.moving this motion, I am not pretending that the answers are

:07:40. > :07:43.simple. The situation in Syria is incredibly complex. I am not

:07:44. > :07:48.overstating the contribution that are incredible service men `nd women

:07:49. > :07:52.can make, neither am I ignoring the risks of military action, nor am I

:07:53. > :07:56.pretending that military action is any more than one part of the

:07:57. > :08:00.answer. I am clear that we lust pursue a comprehensive strategy that

:08:01. > :08:05.also includes political, diplomatic and humanitarian action, and I know

:08:06. > :08:10.the long-term solution in Sxria is in Iraq must ultimately be `

:08:11. > :08:15.government that represents `ll of its people, and one that can work

:08:16. > :08:21.with us to defeat the evil organisation of Isil for good.

:08:22. > :08:27.Notwithstanding all of this, there is a simple question at the heart of

:08:28. > :08:30.the debate today. We face a fundamental threat to our sdcurity.

:08:31. > :08:36.Isil have brutally murdered British hostages, they have inspired the

:08:37. > :08:41.worst terrorist attack against richest people in Tunisia, `nd they

:08:42. > :08:44.plotted atrocity after atrocity on the streets at home. Since November

:08:45. > :08:50.last year, the security services have foiled no fewer than sdven

:08:51. > :08:54.plots against our people so this threat is very real and the question

:08:55. > :08:59.is this. We work with our allies to degrade and destroy this threat and

:09:00. > :09:02.do we go after these terrorhsts in their heartlands where they are

:09:03. > :09:09.plotting to kill richest people or do we sit back and wait for them to

:09:10. > :09:12.attack us? -- British. It whll be helpful if he could retract his

:09:13. > :09:18.inappropriate comment from last night but will he be assured that no

:09:19. > :09:24.one on this side of the House will make a decision based on anx such

:09:25. > :09:27.remarks, nor will we be thrdatened from doing what we believe hs the

:09:28. > :09:35.right thing, whether those threat come from online activist or indeed

:09:36. > :09:39.from our own dispatch box? H completely agree with the honourable

:09:40. > :09:45.gentleman. Everybody should make up their mind on the arguments in this

:09:46. > :09:49.House, and there is honour hn voting for, and there is honour in voting

:09:50. > :09:56.against, that is the way thhs macro house should operate and th`t is why

:09:57. > :09:59.I want to be clear that this is about how we fight terrorisl, and

:10:00. > :10:02.not whether we fight terrorhsm. I will make progress and then give

:10:03. > :10:09.way. In answering this question we should remember that 15 months ago,

:10:10. > :10:15.facing a threat from Isil in Iraq, this House voted to authorise air

:10:16. > :10:23.strikes in Iraq. Since then, our brilliant RAF pilots have hdlped

:10:24. > :10:27.local forces to hold the advance and recover 30% of the territorx that

:10:28. > :10:31.Isil had captured. I spoke to the President Barack and he expressed

:10:32. > :10:35.his gratitude for the vital work is forces are doing, and yet when our

:10:36. > :10:41.planes reached the Syria border we can no longer act to defend either

:10:42. > :10:46.his country or indeed our country. Even when we know that the

:10:47. > :10:48.headquarters of Isil R.N. R`qqa and it is from here that many of the

:10:49. > :10:59.plots against our country are born. The Prime Minister is facing an

:11:00. > :11:04.amendment that was signed bx 11 members of this House from six

:11:05. > :11:08.different political parties. I have examined this list very cardfully, I

:11:09. > :11:13.cannot identify a single terrorist sympathiser among that list. Will he

:11:14. > :11:20.now apologise for his deeplx insulting remarks? I have m`de very

:11:21. > :11:26.clear, this is about how we fight terrorism and there is honotr in any

:11:27. > :11:30.vote that honourable members make. Mr Speaker, we possess capabilities

:11:31. > :11:36.to reduce this threat to our security and my argument today is

:11:37. > :11:41.that we should not wait any longer before doing so. We should `nd so

:11:42. > :11:47.the call from our allies. The action we propose is legal, it is necessary

:11:48. > :11:50.and it is the right thing to do to keep our country save and mx strong

:11:51. > :11:55.view is that this House shotld make clear that we will take up our

:11:56. > :11:59.them off and put our own national them off and put our own national

:12:00. > :12:10.security in the hands of others I give way. I have just returned from

:12:11. > :12:19.Baghdad and Irbil, where Ishl is on the back foot, Saint John h`s been

:12:20. > :12:22.liberated, the route between Muslim Raqqa has been liberated, btt

:12:23. > :12:30.everyone on the ground tells me that unless we attack Isil on thd ground,

:12:31. > :12:35.there is no point, they will come back and attack their country and

:12:36. > :12:40.our country. It is set out very clearly in the UN Security Council

:12:41. > :12:44.that the fact that this so-called caliphate exist in Syria as well as

:12:45. > :12:48.Iraq is a direct threat to the Government of Iraq. He talks about

:12:49. > :12:54.some of the better news frol Iraq, I would also add what has happened in

:12:55. > :12:58.Tikrit, since that has been taken off Isil, 70% of the population

:12:59. > :13:02.returning to the city. Later on I am sure we will talk about

:13:03. > :13:07.humanitarian aid, reconstruction. That can only work if you t`lk about

:13:08. > :13:12.-- if you have good Governmdnt in those towns and the absence of Isil

:13:13. > :13:17.in those towns. Let me make a little more progress and I will take more

:13:18. > :13:21.interventions. Since my statement last week, the House has had an

:13:22. > :13:28.opportunity to ask questions of our security experts. I have -- arranged

:13:29. > :13:33.a breathing for more privy counsellors. I have spoken to

:13:34. > :13:36.President Obama, Chancellor Merkel, Francois Hollande and the Khng of

:13:37. > :13:40.Jordan. The King of Jordan has written in the Daily Telegr`ph today

:13:41. > :13:44.expressing his wish for Britain to stand with Jordan in elimin`ting

:13:45. > :13:48.this global threat. I have `lso listened carefully to questhons from

:13:49. > :13:51.members on all sides of this has and I hope honourable members c`n see

:13:52. > :13:58.the influence this House has had on the motion before us. The stress on

:13:59. > :14:01.post-conflict reconstruction and stabilisation, the importance

:14:02. > :14:07.standing by our allies, are the importance standing by our `llies,

:14:08. > :14:10.troops in combat operations, the importance of casualties, cdasefires

:14:11. > :14:14.and a political settlement `nd regular updates to this House. I

:14:15. > :14:17.have drawn these points frol across the House and put them in the

:14:18. > :14:24.motion, because I want as m`ny people as possible to feel `ble to

:14:25. > :14:30.support this action. I give way Can I say first of all that I whll be

:14:31. > :14:33.supporting him today. I do think, however, that he needs to apologise

:14:34. > :14:39.for the comments he made in relation to the Labour Party. Could H ask him

:14:40. > :14:41.very specifically, in relathon to civilian casualties, what the UK

:14:42. > :14:46.Government are going to do to minimise those? The honourable

:14:47. > :14:52.gentleman raises a very important point. In Iraq, for a year `nd three

:14:53. > :14:55.months, there have been no reports of civilian casualties related to

:14:56. > :14:59.the strikes Britain has takdn. Our starting point is to avoid civilian

:15:00. > :15:03.casualties altogether and I have argued and indeed will argud again

:15:04. > :15:08.today that our precision we`pons and the skill of our pilots makds

:15:09. > :15:12.civilian casualties less likely so Britain being involved in the

:15:13. > :15:15.strikes in Iraq can both be effective in prosecuting thd

:15:16. > :15:23.campaign against Isil, but `lso can help us to avoid civilian c`sualties

:15:24. > :15:28.as well. Let me give way. I'm grateful to the Prime Minister. Is

:15:29. > :15:33.he aware that we have press reports that over the recent past, 60,0 0

:15:34. > :15:41.Syrian troops have been murdered by Isil and our allies have actually

:15:42. > :15:44.waited to attack until after that murderous act has taken place.

:15:45. > :15:49.Therefore, there is a key p`rt in the motion for many others which

:15:50. > :15:54.talks about our action will be exclusively against Isil. If Isil

:15:55. > :16:00.are involved in attacking Sxrian Government troops, will we be

:16:01. > :16:06.bombing Isil in defence of those troops or will we wait idly by, as

:16:07. > :16:11.our allies have done up unthl now, wait for Isil to kill those troops

:16:12. > :16:16.and then for us to bomb thel? What I say to The Rt Hon gentleman, who I

:16:17. > :16:21.have great respect for, the motion says exclusively Isil, becatse that

:16:22. > :16:25.was a promise I made in this House in response to points made from both

:16:26. > :16:28.sides of the House and as f`r as I am concerned, wherever Isil are

:16:29. > :16:33.wherever they can be properly targeted, that is what we should do.

:16:34. > :16:37.Let me make this point, bec`use I think it is important, when it comes

:16:38. > :16:41.to the argument about ground troops. In my discussions with the King of

:16:42. > :16:46.Jordan, he was making the point that in the south of Syria, therd already

:16:47. > :16:49.is cooperation between the Jordanian Government and the French and the

:16:50. > :16:54.Americans and the Free Syri`n Army, but also there is a growing

:16:55. > :16:59.ceasefire between the regimd troops and the Free Syrian Army, so they

:17:00. > :17:03.can turn their guns on Isil. That is what I have said, this is a Isil

:17:04. > :17:08.first strategy, they are thd threat, they are the ones wd should

:17:09. > :17:11.be targeting, this is about national security. Let me make more progress

:17:12. > :17:15.and I will take more intervdntions. I want to address the most hmportant

:17:16. > :17:20.point being raised and I will take as many interventions as I can. I

:17:21. > :17:23.believe the key questions bding raised are these: first, good acting

:17:24. > :17:28.in this way actually increase the risk to our security by makhng an

:17:29. > :17:32.attack more likely? Does Brhtain really have the capability to make a

:17:33. > :17:38.difference? Third, the question asked by a number of members, why

:17:39. > :17:41.don't we just increase our level of air strikes in Iraq to free up

:17:42. > :17:45.capacity amongst other membdrs of the coalition so they can c`rry out

:17:46. > :17:54.more air strikes in Syria? Fourth, will they really be the need for

:17:55. > :17:57.ground forces? Fit, what is the strategy for defeating Isil and

:17:58. > :18:03.securing a lasting political settlement. And six, is there a post

:18:04. > :18:08.conflict settlement plan for Syria? I will try and answer all of these

:18:09. > :18:13.in turn. Let me give way. The Prime Minister will know how membdrs of my

:18:14. > :18:18.party feel when it comes to fighting and dealing with terrorism `nd, for

:18:19. > :18:21.that, there will always be support, no matter where terrorism r`ises its

:18:22. > :18:26.head, but turning to the motion could I ask the Prime Minister if he

:18:27. > :18:29.can guarantee to the House where he indicates that the Government will

:18:30. > :18:34.not deploying UK troops in ground combat operations. If it becomes

:18:35. > :18:39.necessary at a later date to do that, will he come back to this

:18:40. > :18:43.House and seek approval to do that? It is not only something I don't

:18:44. > :18:48.want to do, it is something I think if we did, it would be a mistake,

:18:49. > :18:52.because the argument was made to us by the Iraqi Government that the

:18:53. > :18:57.presence of Western ground troops, that can be a radicalising force,

:18:58. > :19:03.that can be counter-producthve, and that is our view. But I would say to

:19:04. > :19:06.him and colleagues behind md who are concerned about this issue, I accept

:19:07. > :19:10.that this means that our strategy takes longer to be successftl,

:19:11. > :19:14.because we rely on Iraqi ground troops in Iraq. We rely on the

:19:15. > :19:18.patchwork of Free Syrian Arly troops there are in Syria. In time, we hope

:19:19. > :19:23.for Syrian ground troops from a transitional regime. But all of that

:19:24. > :19:28.takes longer and I think ond of the key messages that has to cole across

:19:29. > :19:31.today is yes, we do have a strategy. It is a complex picture, it will

:19:32. > :19:35.take time, but we are acting in the right way. Let me make one lore

:19:36. > :19:40.point, before we get onto all of these things, I want to say

:19:41. > :19:43.something about the terminology we used to describe this evil death

:19:44. > :19:48.cult. Having carefully conshdered the strong representations lade to

:19:49. > :19:52.me and having listened to m`ny members of Parliament, I thhnk it is

:19:53. > :19:55.time to join our key ally France, the Arab league and other mdmbers of

:19:56. > :20:02.the international community in using as frequently as possible the

:20:03. > :20:07.terminology Daesh, rather than Isil. This evil death cult hs not a

:20:08. > :20:14.true representation of Islal nor is it a state. I am interested to hear

:20:15. > :20:18.what he thinks we should call Daesh, but if we are talking about

:20:19. > :20:20.terminology, should he not take this opportunity to withdraw those

:20:21. > :20:24.remarks he is calling those who will not be voting him back of the late

:20:25. > :20:29.with him tonight, a bunch of terrorist sympathisers. Not as it

:20:30. > :20:35.only offensive, it is dangerous and it is untrue. I have made mx views

:20:36. > :20:39.clear about all of us fighthng terrorism and it is time to move on.

:20:40. > :20:42.Let me turn to the important questions and I will take

:20:43. > :20:46.interventions as I go through. First, could acting increasd the

:20:47. > :20:50.risk to our security? This hs one of the most important questions we have

:20:51. > :20:54.to answer. Privy councils across the House have had a briefing from the

:20:55. > :20:59.chair of the independent Johnt Intelligence Committee. I c`n't

:21:00. > :21:02.share all of the classified, but I can say this, Paris wasn't just

:21:03. > :21:06.different because it was so close to us because it was so horrifhc in

:21:07. > :21:12.scale, Paris was different because it showed the extent of terror

:21:13. > :21:16.planning from Daesh in Syri` and the approach of sending people back from

:21:17. > :21:21.Syria to Europe. This was, hf you like, the head of the snake in Raqqa

:21:22. > :21:24.in action. So it is not surprising that the judgment of the ch`ir of

:21:25. > :21:29.the Joint Intelligence Commhttee and of the director-general of the

:21:30. > :21:36.Security service is that thd risk of a similar attack in the UK hs real,

:21:37. > :21:40.and that the UK is already hn the top tier of countries on Ishl's

:21:41. > :21:43.target list. I want to make this point, I will take more

:21:44. > :21:46.interventions. If there is `n attack on the UK in the coming weeks or

:21:47. > :21:50.months, there will be those who try to say it has happened becatse of

:21:51. > :21:55.our air strikes. I do not bdlieve that will be the case. Daesh have

:21:56. > :21:59.been trying to attack us for the last year, as we know from the seven

:22:00. > :22:06.different plots our securitx services have oil. The thre`t level

:22:07. > :22:09.to the UK was raised to sevdre last August in light of attempted attack

:22:10. > :22:17.to buy Daesh, meaning it is highly likely. 800 people, including

:22:18. > :22:20.children, have been radicalhsed and travelled to this so-called

:22:21. > :22:24.caliphate. These terrorists are plotting to kill us and radhcalising

:22:25. > :22:32.our children right now. Thex attack us because of who we are, not

:22:33. > :22:35.because of what we do. Thank you, Mr Speaker. We all, on these bdnches,

:22:36. > :22:42.share the Prime Minister's horror for Daesh and its death cult and we

:22:43. > :22:46.bought terrorism. Will he t`ke this further opportunity to identify

:22:47. > :22:52.which members of these benches he regards as terrorist sympathisers?

:22:53. > :22:57.Everyone in this House can speak for themselves. What I am saying is when

:22:58. > :23:00.it comes to the risk of milhtary action, the risks of inaction are

:23:01. > :23:06.far greater than the risks of what I propose. Next, there are those who

:23:07. > :23:10.ask whether Britain conducthng strikes in Syria will reallx make a

:23:11. > :23:14.difference. This is a questhon. . Let me make my argument then I will

:23:15. > :23:18.take his question, because this point has been raised in brdathing

:23:19. > :23:23.after breaching. I believe we can make a real difference. I told the

:23:24. > :23:27.House last week about dynamhc targeting, brimstone missilds, about

:23:28. > :23:32.the wrapped POD on our torn`does and the intelligence gathering work of

:23:33. > :23:36.the drones. I will not repe`t all of that but there is another w`y of

:23:37. > :23:41.putting it that is equally powerful. There is in the coalition a lot of

:23:42. > :23:45.strike capacity, but when it comes to precision strike capabilhty,

:23:46. > :23:49.whether covering Iraq or Syria, last week the whole international

:23:50. > :23:54.coalition had some 26 aircr`ft available. Eight of those wdre

:23:55. > :23:59.British tornadoes, so typic`lly the UK actually represents betwden a

:24:00. > :24:01.quarter and a third of the international coalition's precision

:24:02. > :24:05.bombing capability and we also have about a quarter of the unmanned

:24:06. > :24:10.strike capability flying in the region, so we have a signifhcant

:24:11. > :24:13.proportion of high precision strike capability. That is why this

:24:14. > :24:21.decision is so important. I will give way. He is right to sing the

:24:22. > :24:28.praises of the RAF pilots and my constituents, one of his sons was

:24:29. > :24:32.tragically killed training for the RAF in 2012 and he has asked

:24:33. > :24:37.specifically this question. Will be air force in northern Iraq, or is

:24:38. > :24:41.the in northern Iraq, and if we go into Syria, does it have co`lition

:24:42. > :24:43.warning systems attached in this crowded airspace question are

:24:44. > :24:51.absolutely essential for thd of our pilots. The honourable gentleman is

:24:52. > :24:55.absolutely right and I pay tribute to his constituent's son. Wd will be

:24:56. > :24:59.part of the deep conviction process that already exists between

:25:00. > :25:05.coalition partners flying in Syria and in Russia. In terms of our own

:25:06. > :25:09.aeroplanes, they have the most extensive air sweeps possible to

:25:10. > :25:12.make sure they are kept safd. So the argument I was making is ond reason

:25:13. > :25:17.members of the international coalition, including Obama, have

:25:18. > :25:22.made the point me personallx, they British planes were make a real

:25:23. > :25:51.difference in Syria, just as they are doing in

:25:52. > :25:55.Either vote is an honourabld vote but I is just we get on with the

:25:56. > :26:00.debate that the country wants to his. I've believe this is to answer

:26:01. > :26:03.the next question that some members have asked about why we do not

:26:04. > :26:08.simply increase our level of air strikes in Iraq to free up other

:26:09. > :26:13.coalition capacity for strikes in Syria. We have the capabilities but

:26:14. > :26:17.other members of the coalithon want to benefit from and it makes no

:26:18. > :26:21.sense to stop using these capabilities at a border between

:26:22. > :26:30.Iraq and Syria that IS does not recognise or respect. -- Dadsh does

:26:31. > :26:33.not recognise. There was a recent incident in which Syrian opposition

:26:34. > :26:38.forces needed urgent support in the fight against Daesh. British

:26:39. > :26:43.Tornados were eight minutes away over the border in Iraq, no one else

:26:44. > :26:46.was close but Britain could not help so the opposition forces had to wait

:26:47. > :26:52.40 minutes in a perilous situation while other forces were scr`mbled.

:26:53. > :26:57.That sort of De Laet endangdrs the lives of those fighting Daesh on the

:26:58. > :27:04.ground and does nothing for our reputation -- that sort of delay. I

:27:05. > :27:09.thank him for giving way. C`n he understand that, at a time when too

:27:10. > :27:13.many aircraft are chasing too few targets, what concerns many of us is

:27:14. > :27:20.a lack of com preventive strategy both military and non-milit`ry

:27:21. > :27:24.including an exit strategy? One of the fundamental differences between

:27:25. > :27:26.Iraq and Syria is you have nearly a million personnel on the government

:27:27. > :27:33.payroll and still we are having trouble pushing Isil act. 70,00

:27:34. > :27:39.moderates in Syria, quite frankly, we risk forgetting the lesson in

:27:40. > :27:43.Libya. What is his reaction to the decision of the Foreign Aff`irs

:27:44. > :27:46.Committee yesterday that actually the Prime Minister had not

:27:47. > :27:52.adequately addressed our concerns? Let me answer both questions. The

:27:53. > :27:55.second question is perhaps `nswered by something I am sure the whole

:27:56. > :28:00.house want to join me in whhch is wishing the honourable membdr for

:28:01. > :28:06.Ilford South well given his recent illness, who normally is always at

:28:07. > :28:10.the foreign affairs select committee and voting on the basis of the

:28:11. > :28:15.arguments he believes in. Where we disagree is I believe there is a

:28:16. > :28:21.strategy of which military `ction is only one part. The key answdred his

:28:22. > :28:26.question is that we want to seem a new Syrian transitional govdrnment

:28:27. > :28:31.whose troops will then be otr allies in squeezing out destroying the

:28:32. > :28:34.so-called caliphate altogether. My disagreement with my honour`ble

:28:35. > :28:40.friend is that I believe we cannot wait for that to happen, thd threat

:28:41. > :28:45.is now, Isil-Daesh are planning attacks now. We can act in Syria as

:28:46. > :28:53.we did in Iraq and in doing so we can enhance the long-term sdcurity

:28:54. > :28:56.and safety of our country. H first double thank the Prime Minister for

:28:57. > :29:01.that change into another chdap and all members of Parliament bdcause

:29:02. > :29:08.the house for their support. -- change in terminology. Would he join

:29:09. > :29:15.me in urging the BBC to change their policy of not using the word Daesh

:29:16. > :29:19.because it would breach imp`rtiality rules. We are at war with

:29:20. > :29:25.terrorism, we have to be unhted will he join me in urging the BBC to

:29:26. > :29:28.review their bizarre policy? I agree with my honourable friend and I have

:29:29. > :29:34.corresponded with the BBC about their use of IS macro, Islalic

:29:35. > :29:41.State, which I think is even worse than either saying so-called I S or

:29:42. > :29:46.Isil but Daesh is clearly an improvement and it is important we

:29:47. > :29:49.all try to use this languagd. Let me make some progress and I will give

:29:50. > :29:52.way some more. There is a more fundamental answer as to whx we

:29:53. > :29:58.should carry out as drugs in Syria ourselves will stop it is R`kip in

:29:59. > :30:07.Syria that is the HQ of this threat -- carry out air strikes. As I have

:30:08. > :30:11.said, it is in Syria were m`ny of the plots against our country are

:30:12. > :30:15.formed so we must act in Syria to deal with these threats ourselves. I

:30:16. > :30:22.thank him for giving way, I would have preferred an apology btt I want

:30:23. > :30:25.to discuss the facts. We proposing to be targeting different things

:30:26. > :30:31.than in northern Iraq and I would like to ask him what practical steps

:30:32. > :30:35.will be used to reduce civilian casualties and what sort of target

:30:36. > :30:38.will will be going against which will reduce the terrorist threat to

:30:39. > :30:43.the UK in terms of operations against our citizens? In terms of

:30:44. > :30:48.the sort of targets we can go after, clearly it is the leaders of this

:30:49. > :30:53.death cult itself, the training camps, the communications htb is,

:30:54. > :31:00.those that are plotting agahnst us. As I will argue, the limited action

:31:01. > :31:07.we took against this dame, has already had an impact on Ishl-Daesh

:31:08. > :31:14.and that is an important pohnt - against Husein. We have a policy of

:31:15. > :31:18.wanting zero civilian casualties. One year and three months into these

:31:19. > :31:24.Iraqi operations, we have not had any reports of civilian castalties.

:31:25. > :31:28.I am not standing here saying that there are no casualties in war, of

:31:29. > :31:32.course there are, this is a very difficult situation will stop it is

:31:33. > :31:38.hugely complex and a diffictlt argument to get across. But at the

:31:39. > :31:42.heart is a simple point, will we in the long-term be safer and better

:31:43. > :31:46.off if we can get rid of thhs so-called caliphate which is

:31:47. > :31:53.radicalising Muslims, turning people against us and plotting atrocities

:31:54. > :31:56.on the streets of Britain? H'm grateful to my right honour`ble

:31:57. > :32:00.friend for giving way. Would he agree with me that there ard already

:32:01. > :32:07.hundreds if not thousands of civilian casualties, those who are

:32:08. > :32:13.thrown off ill beans, burned, decapitated, crucified, who have had

:32:14. > :32:24.to flee Syria -- throne of hll doings. -- throne of the holdings.

:32:25. > :32:31.We want to prevent this death cult from carrying out these ghastly axe.

:32:32. > :32:36.Let me to the question of whether there will be ground forces to make

:32:37. > :32:39.this operation a success ard a ghastly acts. Those who say there

:32:40. > :32:44.are not as mini ground troops as we like and not in the right places are

:32:45. > :32:49.correct, we are not feeling with an ideal situation. We should be clear

:32:50. > :32:54.what air strikes alone can `chieve. We don't need ground troops to

:32:55. > :32:58.target the supply of oil whhch they used to fund terrorism or to target

:32:59. > :33:02.their headquarters and infrastructure and supply routes and

:33:03. > :33:08.training facilities. It is clear that air strikes can have an effect

:33:09. > :33:12.with the issue of Khan and Hussein. Irrespective of ground forcds, the

:33:13. > :33:15.RAF can do serious damage to the bloody right now to bring tdrror to

:33:16. > :33:22.our streets and we should ghve them that support -- -- to their

:33:23. > :33:31.capability. How would he was born to the point that since the offensive

:33:32. > :33:35.on Baghdad was blunted by ahr power, it has changed its tactics `nd

:33:36. > :33:41.disbursed it forces and particularly in Raqqa, has disbursed it

:33:42. > :33:48.operations into small units which make it into this to attacks from

:33:49. > :33:55.our Tornados? I think what he says is absolutely right, of course they

:33:56. > :33:59.have changed tactics. But that is not an argument for doing nothing,

:34:00. > :34:04.it is an argument for using air strikes where you can but h`ving a

:34:05. > :34:08.longer term strategy to delhver the ground troops through the transition

:34:09. > :34:14.you need. The argument is shmple, do we wait for perfection which is a

:34:15. > :34:18.transitional government in Syria, or do we start the work now on the

:34:19. > :34:23.grading and destroying this organisation at the request of our

:34:24. > :34:30.allies and the Gulf states on the knowledge from our security experts

:34:31. > :34:33.that it will make a difference? As I said, the full answer to thd

:34:34. > :34:37.question of ground forces c`nnot be achieved until that is a new Syrian

:34:38. > :34:43.government that represent all the people. It is this new government

:34:44. > :34:47.that will be the natural partners for our forces in defeating Daesh

:34:48. > :34:52.for good but there are some ground forces we can work with in the

:34:53. > :34:59.meantime. Last week I told the house, let me give the expl`nation,

:35:00. > :35:03.we believe there are around 70, 00 Syrian opposition fighters who do

:35:04. > :35:07.not belong to extremist grotps and with whom we can coordinate attacks

:35:08. > :35:11.on Daesh. The house will appreciate there are some limits on wh`t I can

:35:12. > :35:18.say about them, not least that I cannot risk their safety, who are

:35:19. > :35:22.being targeted daily by the resume or Daesh or both. This is an area of

:35:23. > :35:27.great interest and concern so let me say a little more. The 70,000 is a

:35:28. > :35:31.tent -- estimate from our independent joint intelligence

:35:32. > :35:35.committee based on a detaildd analysis updated daily and drawing

:35:36. > :35:40.on a wide range of open source and intelligence. Of these, the majority

:35:41. > :35:45.are from the free Syrian arly. Alongside the 70,000 there `re some

:35:46. > :35:52.20,000 Kurdish fighters with whom we can also work. I am not argting

:35:53. > :35:59.this is crucial, that all of these 70,000 art somehow ideal partners.

:36:00. > :36:02.Some left the Syrian army bdcause of the brutality of Assad and they can

:36:03. > :36:07.play a role in the future of Syria. That is a view taken by the Russians

:36:08. > :36:16.as well who are prepared to talk with these people. I thank him for

:36:17. > :36:20.giving way and the helpful way he has helped colleagues from `cross

:36:21. > :36:23.the house he spoke about a long term strategy and a new government in

:36:24. > :36:27.Syria and there is wide agrdement on that but possibly more of a

:36:28. > :36:32.challenge with Russia so can he update the house on, say should he

:36:33. > :36:38.has had with President Putin as to the short and longer term prospects

:36:39. > :36:41.for President Assad? I have had these conversations with Prdsident

:36:42. > :36:47.Putin on many occasions, most recently in Antalya. Barack Obama

:36:48. > :36:51.had a meeting with him at the climate change conference in Paris.

:36:52. > :36:58.There was an enormous gap bdtween written, America and Saudi @rabia

:36:59. > :37:03.and Russia on the other hand -- Britain. We wanted Assad to go

:37:04. > :37:06.instantly, they wanted him to stay at that gap has narrowed and it will

:37:07. > :37:11.narrow further as these vit`l talks in Vienna get underway. And a point

:37:12. > :37:16.about these talks are some people worry it is a process withott an end

:37:17. > :37:19.but the clear ambition of the talks is for a transitional government

:37:20. > :37:25.within six months and a new constitution and fresh secthons

:37:26. > :37:26.within 18 months so there is a real momentum behind these talks. That

:37:27. > :37:35.require fresh elections. Was he confirmed the house that

:37:36. > :37:39.alongside any military intervention in Syria that may be authorhsed to

:37:40. > :37:43.night he remains completely committed to the huge F at which has

:37:44. > :37:48.kept so many people alive bx this government in that region? ,- the

:37:49. > :37:57.huge humanitarian effort. We will be keeping that othdr not

:37:58. > :38:00.least with the vital conferdnce in London next year when we will bring

:38:01. > :38:07.together the whole world to make sure we fill the gap in the funding

:38:08. > :38:11.that has not been available. He is presenting his case well, if he had

:38:12. > :38:15.come to the house and asked for a narrow licence to take out Hsil s

:38:16. > :38:18.external planning capabilitx and think it would have commanddd

:38:19. > :38:22.widespread consent but he is asking for a wider authority and I want to

:38:23. > :38:27.draw him on the difference between Iraq and Syria. There are ground

:38:28. > :38:32.forces in place in Iraq but not in Syria. Can he say more about what

:38:33. > :38:40.ground forces he envisages joining us in the seizure of Raqqa? This

:38:41. > :38:45.goes to the nub of the diffhculty of this case. I don't think yot can

:38:46. > :38:51.separate taking out the comland and control of Isil's operations against

:38:52. > :38:58.the UK or France or elsewhere from the task of degrading and ddstroying

:38:59. > :39:07.the Daesh caliphate they have created. They are intricately linked

:39:08. > :39:11.and as I argued last week, `s long as this so-called caliphate exists,

:39:12. > :39:14.it is a threat to us, not ldast because it is radicalising Luslims

:39:15. > :39:19.from across the world who are going to fight for that organisathon and

:39:20. > :39:23.potentially returning to attack us. On his second question about ground

:39:24. > :39:28.troops, as I explained, there are three parts to this. The thhngs we

:39:29. > :39:31.can do without ground troops, don't underestimate them. The grotnd could

:39:32. > :39:33.that are there, not ideal, not as men it is radicalising Muslhms from

:39:34. > :39:36.across the world who are gohng to fight for that organisation and

:39:37. > :39:38.potentially returning to attack us. On his second question about ground

:39:39. > :39:40.troops, as I explained, there are three parts to this. The thhngs we

:39:41. > :39:43.can do without ground troops, don't underestimate them. The grotnd could

:39:44. > :39:46.that are there, not ideal, not as men as we and can work with. The

:39:47. > :39:48.real plan is, as you get a transitional government in Syria

:39:49. > :39:51.that can represent all the Syrian people, there will be more ground

:39:52. > :39:53.troops for us to work with two defeat Daesh and the caliph`te which

:39:54. > :39:56.will keep our country safe. I know that takes a long time and ht is

:39:57. > :39:59.complex but that is the str`tegy that we need to start with the first

:40:00. > :40:04.step which is going after these terrorists today. I'm grateful but I

:40:05. > :40:10.think he has to acknowledge that the ground troops which we can work with

:40:11. > :40:16.will be essential for his long-term strategy and at the moment he has

:40:17. > :40:21.not shown to me that, as thd defeat Isil, we create a vacuum into which

:40:22. > :40:27.Assad will move and we must fight and other enemy. And the final word,

:40:28. > :40:30.can I give him some motherlx advice? If he just got up and said, whoever

:40:31. > :40:36.does not walk with me through the division lobbies is not a tdrrorist

:40:37. > :40:40.sympathiser, he would improve his standing in this house enorlously.

:40:41. > :40:46.I'm very happy to repeat wh`t she said. People who vote in either

:40:47. > :40:52.division lobby do so with honour, I couldn't have been more cle`r about

:40:53. > :40:55.that. What I would say to hdr, is if she is saying there are not enough

:40:56. > :41:00.ground troops she's right, hf she is saying they are not always hn the

:41:01. > :41:04.right places she's right. Btt the question is, should we act now in

:41:05. > :41:08.order to try and start to ttrn the tide? Let me make some progress I

:41:09. > :41:12.will give way to the leader of the SNP in a moment. I want to be clear

:41:13. > :41:18.about the 70,000. That figure doesn't include a further 24,00

:41:19. > :41:21.extremist fighters in groups which reject political participathon and

:41:22. > :41:26.reject coordination with non-Muslims. So, although they fight

:41:27. > :41:30.plaice they cannot and will not be our partners. So, Mr Speaker, there

:41:31. > :41:39.are ground forces that will take the fight to Daesh and in many cases we

:41:40. > :41:42.can work with them and assist them. If we don't act now we should be

:41:43. > :41:48.clear there will be even fewer ground forces over time as Daesh

:41:49. > :41:52.will get even stronger. In ly view we simply cannot afford to wait we

:41:53. > :41:58.have to act now. I give way to the leader of the SNP. I'm gratdful for

:41:59. > :42:02.the leader for giving way. Would he clarified for every Member of the

:42:03. > :42:06.House the advice he has been given and others have been given hn race

:42:07. > :42:11.into the forces of 70,000? How many are classified as moderate `nd how

:42:12. > :42:16.many are classified as on the mentalists we could never work with?

:42:17. > :42:21.On the 70,000, the advice I have is that the majority are made tp of

:42:22. > :42:23.Free Syrian Army. But of cotrse the Free Syrian Army has differdnt

:42:24. > :42:29.leadership in different parts of the country. 70,000 excludes those

:42:30. > :42:35.extremist groups like al-Nusra that we will not work with. But `s I said

:42:36. > :42:38.very clearly I'm not arguing that the 70,000 are ideal partners. Some

:42:39. > :42:42.of them do have views that we don't agree with. But the definithon of

:42:43. > :42:46.the 70,000 is those people that we have been prepared to work with and

:42:47. > :42:50.continue to be prepared to work with. Let me make this point again,

:42:51. > :42:56.if we don't take action agahnst Daesh now, the number of ground

:42:57. > :43:02.forces we can work with will get less and less. If we want to end up

:43:03. > :43:06.with a situation where you have the butcher Assad on one side and a

:43:07. > :43:10.stronger Isil on the other side not acting is one of the things that

:43:11. > :43:14.will bring that about. I give way to my honourable honourable frhend

:43:15. > :43:18.I know from my time in government how long, hard and I just bd the

:43:19. > :43:24.Prime Minister thinks about these questions. But, will he enstre that

:43:25. > :43:28.we complete the military aspect of this military campaign so that we

:43:29. > :43:33.can get onto the really but perhaps most ethical aspect of the puestions

:43:34. > :43:36.he has posed, the post-conflict stabilisation and reconstruction of

:43:37. > :43:41.Syria? Without this early stage there will not be a Syria to

:43:42. > :43:43.reconstruct? I think my Right Honourable honourable friend who

:43:44. > :43:48.always thought about these things carefully is right. That is the end

:43:49. > :43:52.goal. We shouldn't take our eyes off the prize, which is a reconstructed

:43:53. > :43:56.Syria that can represent all the people, a Syria at peace so we don't

:43:57. > :43:59.have the migration crisis, the terrorism crisis, that's thd goal.

:44:00. > :44:07.Let me return to the overall strategy. I set this out in the

:44:08. > :44:11.House last week. Counterterrorism, counter extremism, political and

:44:12. > :44:13.diplomatic processes and vital humanitarian work my Right

:44:14. > :44:18.Honourable honourable friend referred to. Our counterterrorism

:44:19. > :44:22.strategy gives Britain can Prince of plan to prevent and foil plots at

:44:23. > :44:27.home and also prevent deep poisonous extremist ideology that is the root

:44:28. > :44:30.cause of the threat we face. I can announce we will establish `

:44:31. > :44:35.comprehensive review to root out any remaining funding of extremhsm

:44:36. > :44:38.within the UK. This will ex`mine specifically the nature, sc`le and

:44:39. > :44:42.origin of the funding of Islamist extremism activity in the UK,

:44:43. > :44:45.including any overseas sources. It will report to myself and Rhght

:44:46. > :44:50.Honourable honourable friend the Home Secretary next spring. I want

:44:51. > :44:56.to make this point before ghving way. There are some who express

:44:57. > :44:59.military action is in some way capable of undermining our counter

:45:00. > :45:03.extremism strategy by radic`lising British Muslims. Let me tackle this

:45:04. > :45:10.head on, British Muslims ard appalled by Daesh. These wolen rake

:45:11. > :45:16.raping, murderous monsters `re hijacking the peaceful religion of

:45:17. > :45:21.Islam for their ends. As thd King of Jordan says, these people are not

:45:22. > :45:24.Muslims, they are outlaws from Islamabad must stand without Muslim

:45:25. > :45:29.Friends of Labour and around the world as they reclaim their religion

:45:30. > :45:34.from beast terrorists. Far from an attack on Islam, we are eng`ged in a

:45:35. > :45:39.defence of Islam. And far from the risk of radicalising British Muslims

:45:40. > :45:42.by acting, failing to act would be to betray British Muslims and the

:45:43. > :45:52.wider religion of Islam in hts very hour of need. The Prime Minhster

:45:53. > :45:58.said that they would fight `ll the time in this country. Why don't the

:45:59. > :46:02.Iranians, the Saudis, the Ttrks why do they not fight these people? Why

:46:03. > :46:08.has it always got to be us who fight them? The Turks are taking part in

:46:09. > :46:13.this action and urging us to do the same. The Saudis are taking part in

:46:14. > :46:17.this action and urging us to do the same. The Jordanians have t`ken part

:46:18. > :46:22.in this action and urge us to do the same. I have here quote aftdr quote

:46:23. > :46:25.from leader after leader in the Gulf world making and pleading whth

:46:26. > :46:31.Britain to take part to takd the fight to this death cult th`t

:46:32. > :46:35.threatens us all so much. The second part of the strategy is support for

:46:36. > :46:39.the diplomatic and political process. Let me say a word `bout how

:46:40. > :46:42.this process can lead to ce`sefires between the regime and opposition so

:46:43. > :46:46.essential for the next stagds of this political transition. Ht begins

:46:47. > :46:51.with identifying the right people to put around the table. We expect a

:46:52. > :46:55.Syrian Bell a team of peopld to negotiate under the auspices of the

:46:56. > :47:01.United Nations. Over the last 1 months political and armed

:47:02. > :47:05.opposition have confirmed Eddie Macken the -- have converged and we

:47:06. > :47:08.will arrange a meeting for opposition representatives hn Riyadh

:47:09. > :47:12.and the United Nations will take forward discussions on steps towards

:47:13. > :47:15.a ceasefire, including at the next meeting of the international Syrian

:47:16. > :47:19.support group that we expect to take place before Christmas. The aim is

:47:20. > :47:22.clear, a transitional government within six months, the new

:47:23. > :47:27.constitution and free electhons within 18 months, so I would argue

:47:28. > :47:31.that the key elements of a deal are emerging. Ceasefires, opposhtion

:47:32. > :47:34.groups coming together, the regime looking at negotiation, the key

:47:35. > :47:41.players, America, Russia, S`udi Arabia and Iran and Chirichds no

:47:42. > :47:49.players -- key regional plaxers like Turkey. Negotiation helps this

:47:50. > :47:53.process which is the eventu`l goal. Does the Prime Minister agrde with

:47:54. > :47:58.me that the murders on the beach in Tunisia and the carnage in Paris on

:47:59. > :48:02.the 13th of November changes everything. And British people would

:48:03. > :48:06.find it rather odd that it would take something more than th`t for

:48:07. > :48:13.Britain to stand shoulder to shoulder with a number of other

:48:14. > :48:17.countries and take on Daesh? My honourable honourable friend speaks

:48:18. > :48:21.for many of us, they attack us for who we are, not because of what we

:48:22. > :48:26.do and they want to attack ts again and again. Do we answer the call of

:48:27. > :48:30.our allies, some of our closest friends in the world, the French and

:48:31. > :48:34.Americans, who want us to join with them and their Arab partners in this

:48:35. > :48:39.work, or do we ignore the c`ll? And if we ignore the call, think what

:48:40. > :48:42.that says about Britain as `n ally. Inc what it says to the countries in

:48:43. > :48:47.the region who ask themselvds if Britain won't come to the ahd of

:48:48. > :48:51.France, it's neighbour in these circumstances, just how relhable

:48:52. > :48:56.neighbour, honourable friend and ally this country is. Let md talk

:48:57. > :49:03.about humanitarian relief and longer term stabilisation. I said last week

:49:04. > :49:07.the report for refugees in the region and the extra ?1 billion we

:49:08. > :49:09.have committed to Syria's reconstruction and the broad

:49:10. > :49:15.international alliance we would work with in the rebuilding phasd. But Mr

:49:16. > :49:18.Speaker, let us be clear and my honourable honourable friend for

:49:19. > :49:23.Dorset North made this clear, people will not return to Syria if part of

:49:24. > :49:26.it is under the control of `n organisation that enslaves Xazidis,

:49:27. > :49:31.throws gay people off buildhngs behead aid workers and forcds

:49:32. > :49:33.children to marry before thdy are even ten years old. We cannot

:49:34. > :49:42.separate the humanitarian work and the reconstruction work frol dealing

:49:43. > :49:47.with Daesh itself. I'm gratdful for the Prime Minister for giving way

:49:48. > :49:51.and welcome any comments th`t distance British Muslims and Muslims

:49:52. > :49:56.in Scotland from Daesh and H welcome the use of that terminology. I ask

:49:57. > :49:59.the question as a new Member of the House, looking to seasoned

:50:00. > :50:03.Parliamentary members who h`ve been in the House for some time `s new

:50:04. > :50:08.members do on such occasions. Given the language used would be seen as

:50:09. > :50:12.unbecoming of a parliamentarian for the benefit of new members would the

:50:13. > :50:16.Prime Minister withdraw his remarks in relation to terrorist

:50:17. > :50:20.sympathisers? What I would say is I think everyone is focused on the

:50:21. > :50:44.main issues in front of us `nd that is what we should be focusing on.

:50:45. > :50:46.Let me turn to the plan for post-conflict reconstruction to

:50:47. > :50:48.support a new Syrian governlent when it emerges. I've said we wotld be

:50:49. > :50:50.prepared to commit ?1 billion to Syria's reconstruction. The initial

:50:51. > :50:51.priorities would be protecthon, security, stabilisation and

:50:52. > :50:53.confidence building measures, including meeting basic hum`nitarian

:50:54. > :50:55.needs such as education, he`lth and shelter and helping refugees to

:50:56. > :50:57.return. Over time the focus would shift, the longer term rebuhlding of

:50:58. > :50:59.Syria's shattered infrastructure, harnessing the expertise of the

:51:00. > :51:01.international financial institutions and the private sector. As H said

:51:02. > :51:06.last week, we're not in the business of trying to dismantle the Syrian

:51:07. > :51:09.state or its institutions. We would aim to allocate reconstructhon funds

:51:10. > :51:13.against a plan agreed betwedn a new inclusive Syrian government and the

:51:14. > :51:17.international community wants the conflict had ended. That is the

:51:18. > :51:23.absolute key. I will take the honourable member here and there and

:51:24. > :51:26.bring it to a close. Prime Linister, what matters to my constitudnts is

:51:27. > :51:30.whether they will be safer `fter this process has taken placd. He's

:51:31. > :51:34.making a strong case that wd are attacking the heart of this

:51:35. > :51:37.terrorist organisation. Will he assure the House, as well as taking

:51:38. > :51:43.action in Syria, you will also shore up services, security services and

:51:44. > :51:46.policing, in the United Kingdom That is what our constituents want

:51:47. > :51:50.to know. What are we doing to strengthen our borders, what are we

:51:51. > :51:52.doing to exchange intelligence information across Europe? What are

:51:53. > :51:56.we doing to strengthen intelligence and policing agencies which the

:51:57. > :52:05.Chancellor spoke about last week. All of this we should see through

:52:06. > :52:09.the prism of international security. When you have the knowledge you can

:52:10. > :52:12.make a difference I believe we should act. Let me take an

:52:13. > :52:19.intervention from the leader of the Liberal Democrats. He rightly makes

:52:20. > :52:23.the point how important it hs we are seen to stand with our friends and

:52:24. > :52:26.allies in Europe. However, the Prime Minister has not so fast and with

:52:27. > :52:30.those European allies on thd matter of taking our fair share of refugees

:52:31. > :52:36.from this crisis and others. Would he look again at the save the

:52:37. > :52:40.children request that this country takes 3000 orphaned children,

:52:41. > :52:44.refugees currently in Europd? I would say we have played a huge part

:52:45. > :52:51.in Europe as the biggest bilateral donor. No other European cotntry has

:52:52. > :52:55.given as much as Britain has and we will take 20,000 refugees whth 000

:52:56. > :52:59.arriving by Christmas. I'm happy to look once again at the issud of

:53:00. > :53:02.orphans. I think it is bettdr to take orphans from the region rather

:53:03. > :53:07.than those who come over with sometimes extended family. H'm very

:53:08. > :53:12.happy to look at that again, both in Europe and out of Europe, to see if

:53:13. > :53:17.Britain can do more to fulfhl our moral responsibilities. Mr Speaker,

:53:18. > :53:21.let me conclude, this is not 20 3. We must not use past mistakds as an

:53:22. > :53:27.excuse for indifference or hn action. Let's be clear, Mr Speaker,

:53:28. > :53:30.in action does not amount for a strategy for our security or the

:53:31. > :53:35.Syrian people. But in action is a choice. I believe it's the wrong

:53:36. > :53:40.choice. We face a clear thrdat and we have listened to our allhes. We

:53:41. > :53:44.have taken legal advice. We have a unanimous United Nations resolution

:53:45. > :53:47.and discussed action extenshvely at meetings of the Security Cotncil and

:53:48. > :53:52.cabinet and I've responded personally to the report of the

:53:53. > :53:56.Foreign Affairs Select Commhttee and we have a proper motion before the

:53:57. > :54:00.House and we have a ten hour debate today. I look forward to thd rest of

:54:01. > :54:02.the debate and listening to contributions of members on all

:54:03. > :54:08.sides of this House. But at the end of it all I hope the House will come

:54:09. > :54:13.together at in large numbers so that Britain will defeat these evil

:54:14. > :54:18.extremists and take the acthon needed now to keep the country safe.

:54:19. > :54:20.I pay tribute to the extraordinary bravery in service of our

:54:21. > :54:26.inspirational Armed Forces who will once again put themselves in harms

:54:27. > :54:27.way to protect our values and our way of life and I commend this

:54:28. > :54:41.motion to the House. The question is motion numbdr two, I

:54:42. > :54:49.call the leader of the opposition, Mr Jeremy Corbyn.

:54:50. > :54:57.The whole House recognises that decisions to send British forces to

:54:58. > :55:00.war are the most serious, solemn and morally challenging of any we have

:55:01. > :55:04.to take as members of Parli`ment. The motion brought before the House

:55:05. > :55:08.today by the Government authorising military action in Syria ag`inst

:55:09. > :55:14.Isil faces us with exactly that decision. It is one with potentially

:55:15. > :55:18.far reaching consequences for us all, here in Britain as well as the

:55:19. > :55:24.people of Syria and the widdr Middle East. For all members take `

:55:25. > :55:28.decision that will put Brithsh servicemen and women in harl 's way

:55:29. > :55:34.and almost inevitably lead to the deaths of innocents. This is a heavy

:55:35. > :55:40.responsibility. It must be treated with the utmost seriousness and

:55:41. > :55:45.respect, given to those who make a different judgment about thd right

:55:46. > :55:50.course of action to take. Which is why the Prime Minister's attempt to

:55:51. > :55:54.brand of those who planned to vote against the Government as tdrrorist

:55:55. > :56:00.sympathisers, both demeans the office of the Prime Minister and, I

:56:01. > :56:05.believe, undermines the serhousness of deliberations we are havhng

:56:06. > :56:08.today. If the Prime Minister now wants to apologise for thosd

:56:09. > :56:21.remarks, I will be happy to give way for him to do so.

:56:22. > :56:28.Since, Mr Speaker, the Primd Minister is unmoved, we will have to

:56:29. > :56:33.move on with the debate. And I hope it will be stronger later to

:56:34. > :56:37.recognise that yes, he did lake an unfortunate remark last night, and

:56:38. > :56:44.apologising for it would be very helpful to improve the atmosphere of

:56:45. > :56:51.this debate today. I thank my honourable friend

:56:52. > :56:55.forgiving way. As he appropriately is pointing out, the Prime Linister

:56:56. > :56:59.is not showing leadership bx not withdrawing his slur on me `nd

:57:00. > :57:04.others, would he also agree with me that there is no place whatsoever in

:57:05. > :57:08.the Labour Party for anybodx who has been abusing those members of the

:57:09. > :57:16.Labour Party who choose to vote with the Government on this resolution?

:57:17. > :57:23.Mr Speaker, at use has no p`rt in responsible democratic political

:57:24. > :57:26.dialogue. -- abuse. That I believe very strongly and that is the way I

:57:27. > :57:35.wish to conduct myself and H wish others to conduct themselves in that

:57:36. > :57:38.way. Would he agree with me that if the Prime Minister came to that

:57:39. > :57:45.dispatch box and made a cle`r apology, he would clear the air

:57:46. > :57:54.immediately and we could move on in this debate with a simple sorry

:57:55. > :57:57.Well, as he often does on these occasions, he appears to be taking

:57:58. > :58:01.advice from the Chancellor of the Exchequer on this matter. If he

:58:02. > :58:08.wants to apologise now, that is fine. If he doesn't, the whole world

:58:09. > :58:10.can note is not apologising. Since the Prime Minister first made its

:58:11. > :58:15.case for extending British bombing to Syria, the doubts and un`nswered

:58:16. > :58:21.questions than expressed on both sides of the House have onlx

:58:22. > :58:24.multiplied. That is why it hs a matter of such concern that the

:58:25. > :58:31.Government has decided to ptsh this vote through Parliament tod`y. It

:58:32. > :58:33.would have been far better to allow a full two Day debate that would

:58:34. > :58:41.have given all members the chance to make a proper contribution. And you

:58:42. > :58:52.yourself, Mr Speaker, inforled us that 157 have applied to spdak in

:58:53. > :58:54.this debate. He and I have worked together on the Kurdish isste. He

:58:55. > :59:03.knows how tough the Kurds are finding it fighting Isil in the back

:59:04. > :59:07.and Syria. -- Iraq. The Shadow Foreign Secretary believes the four

:59:08. > :59:11.conditions for taking action in Syria has -- have been met. Why does

:59:12. > :59:16.he disagree with him on that? He may have to wait a few moments to hear

:59:17. > :59:20.that but it will be in my speech. I am pleased that he has made the

:59:21. > :59:24.intervention in respect of the Kurdish people. At some point over

:59:25. > :59:27.the whole of the Middle East and this settlement, there has to be a

:59:28. > :59:32.recognition of the rights of Kurdish people, whichever country in which

:59:33. > :59:42.they live. He and I have sh`red that view for more than 30 years. And my

:59:43. > :59:47.view has -- has not changed. I am glad he has mentioned the

:59:48. > :59:52.Kurds. Could he be clear at this dispatch box that he or anybody on

:59:53. > :59:56.this bench will no way want to remove the air protection which was

:59:57. > :00:02.voted on with an overwhelming majority in the House 14 months ago?

:00:03. > :00:06.I thank my friend for that intervention. It is not part of the

:00:07. > :00:14.motion today, so we move on with this debate. It is impossible, I

:00:15. > :00:19.think, to avoid the conclushon that the Prime Minister understands that

:00:20. > :00:24.public opinion is moving increasingly against what I believe

:00:25. > :00:29.to be an ill thought out rush to war. And he wants to hold this vote

:00:30. > :00:36.before the opinion grows evdn further against him. Whether it is a

:00:37. > :00:40.lack of strategy, the absence of credible ground troops, the missing

:00:41. > :00:44.diplomatic plan for a Syrian settlement, the failure to `ddress

:00:45. > :00:48.the impact of the terrorist threat or the refugee crisis and chvilian

:00:49. > :00:51.casualties, it is becoming increasingly clear that the

:00:52. > :00:57.proposals for military action simply do not stack up.

:00:58. > :01:01.I am very grateful to the honourable gentleman. I agree with what he has

:01:02. > :01:06.been saying, that the case has not been put for this. I wonder under

:01:07. > :01:10.the circumstances and the slur that has been put on the opposithon

:01:11. > :01:13.benches, whether he will reconsider that it is important that the Labour

:01:14. > :01:20.Party in its entirety joins with those on these benches in opposing

:01:21. > :01:24.the Government, to whip Labour MPs to make sure the Government is

:01:25. > :01:30.defeated in this motion? Evdry MP has to make a decision todax. Every

:01:31. > :01:36.MP has a vote today. Every LP has a constituency. And every MP should be

:01:37. > :01:39.aware of what public opinion is and they will make up their own mind.

:01:40. > :01:42.Obviously I am proposing th`t we do not support the Government lotion

:01:43. > :01:47.tonight and I would encourage all colleagues on all sides to join me

:01:48. > :01:53.in the opposition lobby tonhght to the Government proposals. L`st week

:01:54. > :01:58.the Prime Minister focused his case for bombing on the critical test set

:01:59. > :02:03.by the very respected cross,party the Foreign Affairs Select

:02:04. > :02:06.Committee. Given the holes hn the Government case, it is scarcely

:02:07. > :02:10.surprising that last night the committee reported the Primd

:02:11. > :02:18.Minister had not adequately addressed their concerns. In other

:02:19. > :02:21.words, Mr Speaker, the commhttee judged that the Prime Minister's

:02:22. > :02:34.case for bombing has failed its tests. That the committee rdsolved

:02:35. > :02:42.4-3 that the Prime Minister had not addressed concerns, the Right

:02:43. > :02:47.Honourable friends would have resisted that motion. It was on a

:02:48. > :02:51.narrow point were logically it is almost impossible for the Prime

:02:52. > :02:57.Minister to adequately meet those concerns. Given the fact he is not

:02:58. > :03:01.in a position to produce sufficient detail. He satisfied summer by

:03:02. > :03:08.colleagues. It is a very we`k point for him to rely on. He needs to give

:03:09. > :03:13.it some substance. I thank him for my intervention He

:03:14. > :03:17.and I have often had amicable - amicable discussions on these issues

:03:18. > :03:21.and I'm sure we will again. The fact of the matter is though that at a

:03:22. > :03:26.meeting of the foreigners elect committee there was a verdict given

:03:27. > :03:30.that the Prime Minister had not adequately addressed the concerns.

:03:31. > :03:33.-- foreign affairs select committee. I understand there are diffdrences

:03:34. > :03:40.of opinion. Goodness me, thdre are differences opinion all arotnd this

:03:41. > :03:42.House, your benches and mind. I asked the chair of the select

:03:43. > :03:47.committee to recognise the decision has been made by his committee.

:03:48. > :03:51.After the despicable and horrific attacks in Paris last month, the

:03:52. > :03:55.question of whether the Govdrnment proposals for military action in

:03:56. > :04:00.Syria strengthens or undermhnes our own national security must, Mr

:04:01. > :04:07.Speaker, be at the centre of our deliberations. There is no doubt

:04:08. > :04:12.that the so-called Islamic State group... Mr Speaker, I have given

:04:13. > :04:16.way quite a lot of times already. There are 157 members who whsh to

:04:17. > :04:19.take part in this debate and so I think I should try to move on and

:04:20. > :04:25.speeded up slightly, which `ppears to meet with your approval, Mr

:04:26. > :04:31.Speaker. There is no doubt that Islamic state has imposed a rain of

:04:32. > :04:36.sectarian terror. There is no question it also poses a threat to

:04:37. > :04:41.our own people. The issue now is whether extending British bombing

:04:42. > :04:46.from Iraq to Syria is likelx to reduce or increase that thrdat to

:04:47. > :04:51.Britain. And whether it will counter or spread the terror campaign Isil

:04:52. > :04:58.is waging across the Middle East. The answers do not make the case for

:04:59. > :05:02.the Government motion. On the contrary, they are warning to step

:05:03. > :05:07.back. A vote against another ill-fated twist in this nevdr-ending

:05:08. > :05:11.war on terror. Let's start with the military dimension. The Prile

:05:12. > :05:14.Minister has been unable to explain why extending air strikes to Syria

:05:15. > :05:21.will make a significant milhtary impact on existing -- on thd

:05:22. > :05:26.existing campaign. Isil is `lready being bombed by Syria or Ir`q, by

:05:27. > :05:31.the US, France, Britain and Russia, and other powers. Canada has

:05:32. > :05:37.withdrawn from this campaign and no longer takes part. During more than

:05:38. > :05:42.a year of bombing, Isil has expanded and lost territory. Isil gahns

:05:43. > :05:48.including Raman the and the Syrian city of Palmira Silva the claim that

:05:49. > :05:53.superior British missiles whll make a difference is hard to credit when

:05:54. > :05:56.the US and other states, as an intervention said earlier, when the

:05:57. > :06:00.US and other states are strtggling to find a suitable targets. In other

:06:01. > :06:08.words, extending British bolbing is unlikely to make a huge difference.

:06:09. > :06:12.Secondly, the Prime Minister has failed to convince almost anyone

:06:13. > :06:17.that even if British partichpation in the air campaign were to tip the

:06:18. > :06:22.balance, there are credible ground forces able to take back territory

:06:23. > :06:28.now held by Isil. In fact, Lr Speaker, it is quite clear there are

:06:29. > :06:32.no such forces. Last week the Prime Minister suggested that the

:06:33. > :06:37.combination of Kurdish militias the Free Syrian Army, would be `ble to

:06:38. > :06:42.fill the gap. He even claimdd a 70,000 strong force of moderate FSA

:06:43. > :06:49.fighters were ready to coordinate action against Isil with thd Western

:06:50. > :06:54.air campaign. That claim has not remotely stored up to scruthny.

:06:55. > :07:02.Kurdish forces are a distance away in the Sunni areas where Ishl

:07:03. > :07:06.controls. Nor are the FSA, which includes a wide range of groups few

:07:07. > :07:11.if any would regard as moderate and mostly operate in other parts of the

:07:12. > :07:15.country. The only ground forces able to take advantage of a succdssful

:07:16. > :07:23.anti-Isil air campaign are ` stronger, jihadist groups close to

:07:24. > :07:25.the Isil controlled areas. H think these are serious issues th`t we

:07:26. > :07:32.need to think through very carefully. I believe that is what

:07:33. > :07:38.the prime's bombing campaign could lead to do. This is why the

:07:39. > :07:42.logic... Mr Speaker, I will give way later on but I think I should be

:07:43. > :07:48.enabled to make what I think is an important part of this contribution.

:07:49. > :07:52.This is why the logic of an extended air campaign is, in fact, mhssion

:07:53. > :07:55.creep. And western boots on the ground, whatever the Prime Linister

:07:56. > :08:03.may say now about keeping British combat troops out of the wax, are a

:08:04. > :08:06.real possibility. Thirdly, the military aim of attacking Isil

:08:07. > :08:12.targets in Syria is not really part of a coherent diplomatic strategy.

:08:13. > :08:19.The UN Security Council resolution to 249 passed after the Parhs

:08:20. > :08:23.atrocities and cited in tod`y's government motion, does not give

:08:24. > :08:28.clear and unambiguous authorisation for UK bombing in Syria. To do so it

:08:29. > :08:32.would have had to have been passed under chapter seven of the Tnited

:08:33. > :08:39.Nations Charter, to which the Security Council could not `gree.

:08:40. > :08:48.The UN resolution is certainly a welcome framework. For joint action

:08:49. > :08:53.to cut off funding, oil revdnues, arms supplies from Isil. But I

:08:54. > :08:59.wonder how much signs there are of that happening?

:09:00. > :09:04.I will give way. Myself and the honourable member do not agree on

:09:05. > :09:08.very much but on the necesshty to cut off the oil supplies I very much

:09:09. > :09:12.agree with him. Therefore I am at a complete loss to understand why he

:09:13. > :09:16.would oppose air strikes, which are such a crucial part in targdting oil

:09:17. > :09:23.supplies which provide fundhng for Isil and Daesh. The problem is the

:09:24. > :09:29.oil supplies being sold by Hsil I going into other countries, into

:09:30. > :09:35.Turkey and other places. And I think we need to know, I think we need to

:09:36. > :09:41.know exactly who is buying that oil. Who is funding that oil. Wh`t banks

:09:42. > :09:45.are involved in financial transactions which ultimately end up

:09:46. > :09:53.with Isil and which other countries in the region may or may not be

:09:54. > :09:56.involved in. That is despitd, Mr Speaker, the clear risk of

:09:57. > :10:00.potentially disastrous incidents. The shooting down of a Russhan

:10:01. > :10:10.military aircraft by Turkish forces is a sign of the danger of ` serious

:10:11. > :10:15.escalation of this whole issue. I am grateful to him forgivhng way.

:10:16. > :10:21.The number of these ground troops is unknown and the composition is also

:10:22. > :10:24.unknown. We do know that thdy are by definition opposition fightdrs,

:10:25. > :10:27.anti-Assad. Does he agree whth me that the Prime Minister still has a

:10:28. > :10:31.question to answer about how we can work with them to retake ground from

:10:32. > :10:37.Daesh without getting into ` wider conflict with Russia?

:10:38. > :10:44.I think the member for Brighton makes a very important point, and

:10:45. > :10:50.she has been very active in trying to promote pace and humanit`rian

:10:51. > :10:54.resolutions to conflict arotnd the world. The Prime Minister h`s

:10:55. > :10:59.avoided spelling out to the British people the warnings he has surely

:11:00. > :11:06.been given. The likely impact of UK a rights on the threat of tdrrorist

:11:07. > :11:09.attacks in the UK. -- air strikes. That is something everyone who backs

:11:10. > :11:15.very carefully before we votes very carefully before we votes

:11:16. > :11:19.whether or not to send RAF pilots into action over Syria. It hs

:11:20. > :11:24.critically important, Mr Spdaker, that we as a house are honest with

:11:25. > :11:27.the British people about thd potential consequences of the action

:11:28. > :11:33.the Prime Minister is proposing to us today. I am aware that there are

:11:34. > :11:37.those with military experience, including members on the benches

:11:38. > :11:42.opposite as well as this side, who have argued that extending TK

:11:43. > :11:49.bombing will and I quote increase the short-term risk of terrorist

:11:50. > :11:55.attacks in Britain. We should also remember the impact, Mr Spe`ker on

:11:56. > :12:00.communities here in Britain. Sadly, since the Paris attacks, thdre has

:12:01. > :12:03.been a sharp increase in Islamophobic incidence and physical

:12:04. > :12:10.attacks. I have discussed these with people in my local mosque in my

:12:11. > :12:15.constituency, and it is horrific. Surely the message from all of us in

:12:16. > :12:21.this house today must go out - none of us, we can say this together we

:12:22. > :12:27.will not tolerate any form of anti-Semitism, Islamophobia or

:12:28. > :12:33.racism of any form in this country. The Prime Minister has not offered a

:12:34. > :12:39.serious assessment, in my vhew, of the intensified air campaign on

:12:40. > :12:47.civilian casualties in Isil held Syrian territory, or the wider

:12:48. > :12:51.Syrian refugee crisis. At ldast 250,000 have already been khlled in

:12:52. > :12:56.Syria's terrible civil war. 11 million made homeless and four

:12:57. > :13:02.million forced to leave the country. Many more have been killed by the

:13:03. > :13:07.Assad regime than by Isil itself. Yet more bombing in Syria whll kill

:13:08. > :13:15.innocent civilians, there is no doubt about that, and turn lany more

:13:16. > :13:20.Syrians into refugees. Yestdrday, I will name and, I will in a loment.

:13:21. > :13:25.Yesterday I was sent a mess`ge from a constituent of mine who comes from

:13:26. > :13:34.Syria. I am sorry, it is not funny, it is a family who are suffdring. I

:13:35. > :13:39.quote from his message, I al a Syrian from a city which is now

:13:40. > :13:44.controlled by Isil. Members of my family still live there, and Isil

:13:45. > :13:50.did not kill them. My questhon to David Cameron is, can you gtarantee

:13:51. > :13:55.the safety of my family when your air forces dropped bombs on my city?

:13:56. > :14:02.It is a fair question from ` family who are very concerned. Thank you

:14:03. > :14:05.very much. I would say to the right honourable gentleman, as I speak as

:14:06. > :14:10.a member of the military who has left, and there is a fundamdntal

:14:11. > :14:17.point that the Leader of thd Opposition is making, and that this

:14:18. > :14:20.is about national security. All these conflicting arguments, the

:14:21. > :14:23.complex situations, it is vdry difficult, but it comes down to

:14:24. > :14:30.national security and inhibhting what these people are trying to do

:14:31. > :14:34.on the streets of this country. Yes, of course, security on the streets

:14:35. > :14:41.of this country in all of otr communities is very important. That

:14:42. > :14:45.is why we have supported thd Government in no longer pursuing the

:14:46. > :14:50.strategy of cutting the polhce, and also increasing security in this

:14:51. > :14:53.country, because clearly none of us want any kind of atrocity on the

:14:54. > :15:01.streets of this country. My borough was deeply affected by 7/7 hn 2 05.

:15:02. > :15:06.Order! Can I just say that the member who has the floor cannot be

:15:07. > :15:09.expected to give way to a ftrther intervention when he is in the

:15:10. > :15:13.process of answering an existing one? The honourable gentlem`n is an

:15:14. > :15:17.experienced enough denizen of this house to be aware of that. H would

:15:18. > :15:22.like to give way to the member for Tottenham.

:15:23. > :15:33.LAUGHTER I am very grateful to the Ldader of

:15:34. > :15:44.the Opposition. In making hhs points, does the Leader of the

:15:45. > :15:47.Opposition accepts that the 70, 00 moderate Sunnis that the Prhme

:15:48. > :15:53.Minister claims is there consists of many different jihadist grotps?

:15:54. > :16:04.There is some concern, I thhnk it is across the house, that potentially

:16:05. > :16:08.degrading Isil-Daesh, we crdate a vacuum into which other jih`dist

:16:09. > :16:17.scum over time. That surely does not make the streets of Britain safer.

:16:18. > :16:22.-- jihadists come. I now give way to the member for Southgate. I am very

:16:23. > :16:26.grateful to him for giving way, he has a consistent position in

:16:27. > :16:31.relating to opposing air strikes, and he has insisted in this house in

:16:32. > :16:36.September 2014, when you voted against air strikes in Iraq, he said

:16:37. > :16:39.this, I do not believe that further air strikes and the deepening of our

:16:40. > :16:44.involvement will solve the problem. Does he maintain his opposition to

:16:45. > :16:48.air strikes in Iraq, let alone increasing and extending to Syria? I

:16:49. > :16:53.thank both members for their interventions, and the point made by

:16:54. > :17:00.the member for Tottenham is a very serious one. We have to be careful

:17:01. > :17:05.about what happens in the ftture, we have to be very aware of thd danger

:17:06. > :17:10.of some people, mainly young people, being deeply radicalise and ending

:17:11. > :17:14.up doing very dangerous things indeed. Is the radicalisation of

:17:15. > :17:17.some very small number, but nevertheless significant nulber of

:17:18. > :17:21.young people across Europe ` product of the war or something elsd? I

:17:22. > :17:25.think we need to think very, very deeply about that and think very,

:17:26. > :17:30.very deeply about what is h`ppening in this world since 2001, and the

:17:31. > :17:37.increasing numbers of peopld that are suffering because of it. I rest

:17:38. > :17:47.my case at that point. Therd is not, Mr Speaker, an EU wide strategy to

:17:48. > :17:56.provide Umana Terry and asshstance to those victims. -- Umana ,-

:17:57. > :18:01.humanitarian. I ask the Prile Minister this, is he able to explain

:18:02. > :18:07.how British bombing in Syri` will contribute to a Cumbrian sidve,

:18:08. > :18:11.negotiated political settlelent of the Syrian war? -- comprehensive.

:18:12. > :18:18.Such a settlement is widely accepted to be the only way to ensurd the

:18:19. > :18:23.isolation and defeat of Isil. Isil grew out of the invasion of Iraq and

:18:24. > :18:34.has flourished in Syria in the chaos and horror of a multi-frontdd civil

:18:35. > :18:39.war. The Prime Minister has spoken of the choice between action and

:18:40. > :18:44.inaction today, but those of us who will be voting against air strikes,

:18:45. > :18:51.we also want to see action. The Prime Minister said almost nothing

:18:52. > :18:55.about cutting off the financial supplies for Daesh which by the

:18:56. > :18:58.bombs, which help radicalisd recruits. Does my right honourable

:18:59. > :19:08.friend agree with me that wd need action on this point. We nedd action

:19:09. > :19:13.to ensure there is a diplom`tic and political solution to the crisis. I

:19:14. > :19:17.welcome what the Prime Minister said about speeding up the process in

:19:18. > :19:21.Vienna, but the message shotld be, let's speed that up, rather than

:19:22. > :19:28.sending in the bombers to bring about political settlement. What we

:19:29. > :19:33.need, therefore, Mr Speaker, is an involvement of all the main regional

:19:34. > :19:38.and international powers. Now, that, I know, it has been attemptdd, I

:19:39. > :19:42.know that there have been discussions in Vienna, and we

:19:43. > :19:45.welcome that. I think it is regrettable that Geneva 2, Lr

:19:46. > :19:50.Speaker, I am going to try to make progress with this speech if I may.

:19:51. > :19:54.There are over 150 members who wish to speak, therefore I think long

:19:55. > :20:00.speeches on the front benchds take time out of backbench speeches. So

:20:01. > :20:04.the aim must be to establish a broad-based government in Sxria that

:20:05. > :20:10.has the support of the majority of its people, difficult as th`t is to

:20:11. > :20:14.envisage at the present timd. Such a settlement, no. But such a

:20:15. > :20:17.settlement could help take back territory from Isil and bring about

:20:18. > :20:24.their lasting defeat in Syrha. Ultimately... Mr Speaker, I am

:20:25. > :20:28.really sorry to have to tell members I have given away quite a lot to

:20:29. > :20:41.members on both sides, I am going to continue with my speech.

:20:42. > :20:43.Ultimately,... Sits down! Order A very long established convention of

:20:44. > :20:49.this house is that the membdr who has the floor gives way or not as he

:20:50. > :20:52.or she chooses. The Leader of the Opposition has made it clear that

:20:53. > :20:57.for now he is not giving wax, the appropriate as bonds is not to jump

:20:58. > :21:01.up and shout give way, it is not terribly sensible. -- the

:21:02. > :21:06.appropriate response. The point I was making is that, ultimatdly, the

:21:07. > :21:12.solution in Syria has to be by all the people of Syria themselves.

:21:13. > :21:16.Surely, on that, we are all agreed. I thought I made it clear, H think

:21:17. > :21:22.the speaker made it clear, that for the moment I am not giving way, I am

:21:23. > :21:36.really sorry, but I am not. The Government's proposals... The

:21:37. > :21:40.Government's proposals for... Order! On a point of order, Mr Spe`ker

:21:41. > :21:44.although it is indeed custolary that he will hold the board decides

:21:45. > :21:48.whether or not to give way, is it not also customary to answer

:21:49. > :21:55.questions when they are put in interventions, and we are w`iting

:21:56. > :21:59.for the answer on Iraq? LAUGHTER

:22:00. > :22:03.The honourable gentleman is a sufficiently experienced

:22:04. > :22:08.parliamentarian to know that he has made his own point in his own way,

:22:09. > :22:14.and it is on the record. Mr Jeremy Corbyn. Thank you, Mr Speakdr. Mr

:22:15. > :22:23.Speaker, if I could move on with the speech, I would be most grateful.

:22:24. > :22:31.The Government's proposals... The Government's proposals for lilitary

:22:32. > :22:35.action in Syria are not backed by a clear and an ambiguous authorisation

:22:36. > :22:40.by the United Nations. It does not meet the seven test sets down by our

:22:41. > :22:46.own foreign affairs committde. And it does not fulfil three of the four

:22:47. > :22:52.conditions laid down in my own party conference resolution of a couple of

:22:53. > :22:56.months ago. The past week, Lr Speaker, voice has been givdn to

:22:57. > :22:59.growing opposition to the Government's bombing plans `cross

:23:00. > :23:05.the country - in Parliament, outside, in the media, and hndeed in

:23:06. > :23:09.my own party -, and I believe it is a consideration of all the wars that

:23:10. > :23:13.we have been involved in in the last 14 years. These matters werd debated

:23:14. > :23:18.a great deal during my own campaign to be elected the leader of the

:23:19. > :23:24.Labour Party, and many people think very deeply about these matters The

:23:25. > :23:27.light of the record of Westdrn military interventions is one that

:23:28. > :23:34.has to be analysed. British bombing in Syria risks yet more of what

:23:35. > :23:38.President Obama, in a very thoughtful moment, called the

:23:39. > :23:45.unintended consequences of the war in Iraq, which he himself opposed at

:23:46. > :23:51.the time. The spectre, Mr Speaker, of Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya looms

:23:52. > :23:58.over this debate. Mr Speaker, I am not giving way, I'm going to carry

:23:59. > :24:05.on with my speech. Mr Speakdr, to oppose another war and intervention,

:24:06. > :24:09.in my view, is actually not pacifism, it is hard-headed

:24:10. > :24:10.common-sense, which I think we should be thinking about today in

:24:11. > :24:17.this house. To resist Isil's this house. To resist Isil's

:24:18. > :24:20.determination to draw the Wdstern powers back into the heart of the

:24:21. > :24:26.Middle East is not to turn our back on our allies. It is refusing to

:24:27. > :24:31.play into the hands of Isil and what I suspect some of them want us to

:24:32. > :24:36.do. Is it wrong for as here in Westminster to see a problel, passed

:24:37. > :24:41.a motion, drop bombs and prdtend we are doing something to solvd it

:24:42. > :24:50.That is what we did in Afgh`nistan, Iraq, Libya. I ask the question of

:24:51. > :24:57.the house - as terrorism increased or degrade as a result of all of

:24:58. > :25:01.that? -- as terrorism incre`sed all the creased. The Prime Minister said

:25:02. > :25:04.he was looking to build consensus around the military action he wants

:25:05. > :25:10.to take. I do not believe hd has achieved anything of their kind He

:25:11. > :25:14.has failed, in my view, to lake the case for another bombing calpaign.

:25:15. > :25:21.All of our efforts instead should go into bringing these Syrian civil war

:25:22. > :25:24.to an end. Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya - I ask members to think very

:25:25. > :25:34.carefully about the previous decisions we have made. What we are

:25:35. > :25:45.proposing to do today is send British bombers... Point of order.

:25:46. > :25:48.On a number of occasions, hd has spoken of receiving complaints from

:25:49. > :25:52.the public, what you think the public makes when the Leader of the

:25:53. > :25:56.Opposition is being shouted down constantly by the government

:25:57. > :26:02.benches? I think what the ptblic wants is a civilised though robust

:26:03. > :26:05.debate by members on both shdes of the house! I thank the honotrable

:26:06. > :26:08.gentleman, a very experiencdd member, for that point of order

:26:09. > :26:12.Let's proceed without the atthor a bug. Mr Jeremy Corbyn. -- whthout

:26:13. > :26:23.fear or favour. Sometimes we get carried aw`y with

:26:24. > :26:27.the theatricals of the placd and forget that millions of people

:26:28. > :26:30.sentenced to this House to represent them and we should be able to

:26:31. > :26:36.conduct our debates in a decent respectful and civilised manner And

:26:37. > :26:42.assured as this debate is compared to the number who want to speak I

:26:43. > :26:49.hope all of those members who wants to speak do get called. I conclude

:26:50. > :26:56.with this point, Mr Speaker. In my view only a negotiated political and

:26:57. > :27:01.diplomatic endeavour to bring about an end to this Civil War in Syria

:27:02. > :27:05.would bring some hope to thd millions who have lost their homes,

:27:06. > :27:09.who are refugees, who are c`mped out in various points all across

:27:10. > :27:14.Europe, dreaming of a day that they can return home. I think Rover

:27:15. > :27:20.riding goal should be to end that Civil War in Syria. -- our

:27:21. > :27:25.overriding goal. And also to protect the people of this country. That is

:27:26. > :27:29.why, Mr Speaker, I do not bdlieve that the motion but by the Prime

:27:30. > :27:36.Minister achieves that, bec`use it seems to put the emphasis on bombing

:27:37. > :27:39.now, whereas I think the emphasis should be not on bombing now but on

:27:40. > :27:44.bringing about all of our endeavours, all of our intelligence

:27:45. > :27:48.and all of our efforts... I think it is very strange that members do not

:27:49. > :27:51.seem to understand there ard millions who watched these debates

:27:52. > :27:57.and want to hear what is behng said. They don't want to hear people

:27:58. > :28:03.shouting at each other. So for those reasons, Mr Speaker, I urge members

:28:04. > :28:06.on all sides of the House to think very carefully about responsibility

:28:07. > :28:12.that lies with them today. Do we sending bombers, not totallx aware

:28:13. > :28:18.of what the consequences ard going to be? Or do we pause, not send them

:28:19. > :28:22.in and instead put all of otr efforts into bringing about a

:28:23. > :28:27.peaceful, humanitarian and just political settlement to the terrible

:28:28. > :28:42.situation faced by the people in Syria?

:28:43. > :28:45.I don't think there is anybody on either side of the House, as all of

:28:46. > :28:51.us are trying to show responsibility and duty, who in any way relished

:28:52. > :28:56.the decision that we are behng asked to take today. It is not

:28:57. > :29:01.straightforward likely response to the invasions of Kuwait and the

:29:02. > :29:08.Falklands. It is a very difficult decision we are being asked to take.

:29:09. > :29:11.Dean taking it -- and in taking it we have to have two issues hn the

:29:12. > :29:18.forefront of our thinking. First, the security of our own country And

:29:19. > :29:26.secondly, the desperate need to restore stability to the Middle

:29:27. > :29:31.East. But rather than rehearse all of the arguments, I would lhke to

:29:32. > :29:37.pick out and emphasise a few points which I ask the House solemnly to

:29:38. > :29:39.consider. The question of whether to commit our Armed Forces has actually

:29:40. > :29:45.over the last few years become seriously muddied both by the

:29:46. > :29:50.painful experience of past decisions, and by the compldxity of

:29:51. > :29:55.the unfolding disorder across the Arab world. The experience of

:29:56. > :29:59.Afghanistan in part to which the Leader of the Opposition referred

:30:00. > :30:06.and of Iraq, more significantly have led to growing reticence and

:30:07. > :30:13.indeed distrust in this House and outside it, about any proposal for

:30:14. > :30:17.military action. The first point I would like to emphasise is that we

:30:18. > :30:24.must take the decision todax based on the merits of today. We lust base

:30:25. > :30:32.it on today's facts and not on yesterday's mistakes and regrets.

:30:33. > :30:37.Before I give way, may I just point out politely to the Stop thd War

:30:38. > :30:47.Coalition that when it actu`lly comes to Syria, stopping thd war is

:30:48. > :30:51.exactly what we want to do. I thank the Honourable gentleman

:30:52. > :30:57.forgiving way. I absolutely agree with him that what we need `re facts

:30:58. > :31:00.and greater clarity about otr capability to take on the t`sk ahead

:31:01. > :31:08.of us. Yesterday we were told there were between 20000 and 30,000 Daesh

:31:09. > :31:13.across Syria and Iraq. But H could not be given a number as to how many

:31:14. > :31:19.Taliban who are fighting in Afghanistan, to get a comparator,

:31:20. > :31:22.when we had 10,000 of our troops and 30,000 Americans fighting them, I

:31:23. > :31:27.could not get that. I could not get an answer as to how often wd reduced

:31:28. > :31:31.our brimstone missiles and how many more planes we would be flyhng.

:31:32. > :31:36.Don't we need those questions answered?

:31:37. > :31:39.I am sorry, interventions mtst be brief, not many speeches, however

:31:40. > :31:43.well-intentioned. May I am sure the Honourabld Lady to

:31:44. > :31:49.appreciate that the search for certainty in the Middle East is a

:31:50. > :31:54.vain hope. Perhaps the watchword I learned 30 years ago when I first

:31:55. > :31:57.went there, if you are not confused, you do not understand. It is a

:31:58. > :32:03.complex world in which we are deciding to act. Let me movd on to

:32:04. > :32:09.my second point. The second point, and again I address this to the

:32:10. > :32:15.Leader of the Opposition, wd must not underestimate the extent and the

:32:16. > :32:24.nature of the danger we facd and say that because it is all over there it

:32:25. > :32:29.is not over here. The phenolenon of ices -- Isis is not only a dominant

:32:30. > :32:33.force running rampant through Iraq and Syria, it is also fuellhng those

:32:34. > :32:38.who will readily walk up thd Main Street of a major city with a

:32:39. > :32:42.suicide bomber or carrying Kalashnikov. So to those who same

:32:43. > :32:47.air strikes would increase that danger, I would urge them not to

:32:48. > :32:54.give into that narrative. These people are already targeting us now.

:32:55. > :33:00.No. Thirdly, we have to see this thread. No. We have to see this

:33:01. > :33:07.thread in the context of evdn greater regional danger. We are

:33:08. > :33:11.witnessing the collapse of nation states across potentially the whole

:33:12. > :33:20.of Arabia, along with the vholent release of centuries of sectarian

:33:21. > :33:24.hatred. A crucial element of our policy should be to try to stop this

:33:25. > :33:31.spreading. And that means that we must support stable rule within the

:33:32. > :33:34.six countries of the GCC, and those who just attack the conduct of our

:33:35. > :33:39.Gulf allies simply do not understand the horror that would be unleashed

:33:40. > :33:48.by further instability in the region. Even now, we face the very

:33:49. > :33:53.real prospect arc of brutalhty and terrorism stretching from Sxria

:33:54. > :34:01.through Iraq, to Yemen, right across into a terrifying link with the Horn

:34:02. > :34:10.of Africa. And fourthly, we cannot turn away from this threat `nd sub

:34:11. > :34:17.contract our obligations. If we are to pursue the destruction of Isis

:34:18. > :34:25.and rebuild stable government and underpin wider stability, and make

:34:26. > :34:31.all of that a serious and convincing objective of our foreign policy we

:34:32. > :34:38.must be part of the convoy that is trying to do it. We cannot, as I

:34:39. > :34:45.would see it, negligently W`tchet roll by while not playing otr part.

:34:46. > :34:49.Put frankly, our reputation, our international reputation has

:34:50. > :34:58.suffered from the parliamentary vote in August 2013. Our allies now

:34:59. > :35:01.question whether it can be relied upon -- whether we can be rdlied

:35:02. > :35:07.upon when they call for joint assistance. Mr Speaker, if we choose

:35:08. > :35:14.today to remain on the sidelines, especially when there is a new and

:35:15. > :35:19.unequivocal UN resolution in place it would signal to the world that

:35:20. > :35:27.the UK has indeed chosen to withdraw. Mr Speaker, we should not

:35:28. > :35:35.be in the business of national resignation from the world stage.

:35:36. > :35:38.Perhaps indeed the paradox of our position today is not that we are

:35:39. > :35:45.doing too much, but that we are doing too little. But if I do have a

:35:46. > :35:47.concern, and again let me look directly at the right honourable

:35:48. > :35:51.gentleman, the Leader of thd Opposition, it is that the `ction I

:35:52. > :35:55.hope we will vote for tonight is not the whole answer. And the Prime

:35:56. > :36:03.Minister is not pretending that it is. The hope that local so-called

:36:04. > :36:09.moderate forces can do the job on the ground and somehow put Humpty --

:36:10. > :36:14.put Humpty Dumpty together `gain is, of course, more of an act of faith

:36:15. > :36:25.than a certain plan. But I think it is wrong, however, for the Leader of

:36:26. > :36:28.the Opposition to dismiss their significance and that their

:36:29. > :36:32.composition is sufficient rdason to do nothing. Tonight I think we

:36:33. > :36:36.should carry this motion. Wd have to carry it with our eyes open. Knowing

:36:37. > :36:42.that we are flying into MS that shows no easy prospect of bding

:36:43. > :36:51.quickly resolved. -- into a mess. But we cannot leave a vile force

:36:52. > :36:56.unchallenged. Mr Speaker, these air strikes do matter. I believd they

:36:57. > :36:59.are justified. But I also think that in my view the future judgmdnt of

:37:00. > :37:04.the Prime Minister about wh`t then follows will eventually become more

:37:05. > :37:11.important than the decision we are taking tonight.

:37:12. > :37:15.Mr Angus Robertson. It is a pleasure to follow the right honourable

:37:16. > :37:19.gentleman, a fellow member of the intelligence and security to the,

:37:20. > :37:25.but I fear we will be in different lobbies later this evening. May I

:37:26. > :37:28.begin by intimating support for the amendment which appears in ly name

:37:29. > :37:34.and those of honourable and right honourable gentleman. And honourable

:37:35. > :37:39.and right honourable ladies, of course. It is signed by members of

:37:40. > :37:43.six different political parties and over 100 members from across the

:37:44. > :37:46.House. While welcoming the renewed impetus to watch peace and

:37:47. > :37:49.reconciliation in Syria and recognition that a comprehensive

:37:50. > :37:53.strategy against the Dyas is required, does not believe that a

:37:54. > :38:00.case with UK participation hn air strikes has been made under current

:38:01. > :38:04.circumstances, and consequently declined to authorise milit`ry

:38:05. > :38:09.intervention. May I begin bx thanking the Prime Minister. I would

:38:10. > :38:13.like to thank him for advanced side of his statement and for thd

:38:14. > :38:18.briefings by his national sdcurity adviser and colleagues from the

:38:19. > :38:21.Ministry for defence, the Foreign and Commonwealth Office, David and

:38:22. > :38:26.other agencies. And I put on record our appreciation to all of those in

:38:27. > :38:29.charge with keeping us safe at home and abroad. And notwithstanding the

:38:30. > :38:34.profound differences I have with the Prime Minister on the issue, I would

:38:35. > :38:37.wish to commend him for bridfing parties and parliamentarians in

:38:38. > :38:45.recent weeks, and the tone he adopted in last week's statdment. It

:38:46. > :38:50.is disappointing that he chose to describe opponents to his plans as

:38:51. > :38:57.terrorist sympathisers. The amendment we have before us today

:38:58. > :38:59.against bombing is signed bx the Honourable member for Basildon and

:39:00. > :39:03.Billericay, who served with the Royal Regiment of Fusiliers in

:39:04. > :39:07.Northern Ireland. It is also signed by the honourable Labour melber for

:39:08. > :39:10.Norwich South, who served whth the Territorial Army in Afghanistan The

:39:11. > :39:14.amendment is also signed by my colleagues from East Kilbride and

:39:15. > :39:19.Glasgow North West, both of whose husbands served in the Armed Forces

:39:20. > :39:24.with distinction. It has also been signed by members in Northern

:39:25. > :39:27.Ireland who have had to expdrience terrorism at first hand. It is

:39:28. > :39:31.totally wrong to impugn members of this house who differ with the

:39:32. > :39:36.Government on bombing Syria as terrorist sympathisers. The Prime

:39:37. > :39:41.Minister has made numerous ,- has had numerous opportunities to

:39:42. > :39:45.apologise. I fear he will not. I would be prepared to give wdight to

:39:46. > :39:50.apologise. I will not give way to apologise. I will not give way to

:39:51. > :39:54.the honourable gentleman. I hope the Prime Minister regrets what he said.

:39:55. > :39:59.We in the Scottish National Party share the concerns of everybody else

:40:00. > :40:04.in this House and the country about the terrorist threat by Daesh. We

:40:05. > :40:07.deplore the Assad regime and that regularly raised the issue of

:40:08. > :40:12.refugees in the region and Durope. There is agreement across this house

:40:13. > :40:17.that the threat from Daesh hs real and doing nothing is not an option.

:40:18. > :40:22.However, however, we recall that only two years ago, this Prhme

:40:23. > :40:25.Minister this comment, wantdd us to bomb the opponents of Daesh. That

:40:26. > :40:30.would no doubt have strengthened them.

:40:31. > :40:37.We have not heard it yet, btt there is no shortage of currently

:40:38. > :40:42.currently is currently bombhng in Syria. The Russians have bedn

:40:43. > :40:48.attacking Daesh and the moddrate opposition to Assad as well.

:40:49. > :40:54.Coalition operations includd, and it is a long list, Australia, Bahrain,

:40:55. > :41:01.Canada, France, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, which also uses Brilstone as

:41:02. > :41:05.a weapons system, the Republic of Turkey, which interestingly is also

:41:06. > :41:10.bombing our allies in Kurdistan the United Arab Emirates and thd United

:41:11. > :41:16.States of America. Open sources confirm, Mr Speaker, that shnce

:41:17. > :41:25.September 2014, these air strikes have included F-16 Falconss,

:41:26. > :41:30.Subotic, sea-launched Tomah`wk missiles, and weapons launch from

:41:31. > :41:33.drones above Syria. The United States central command confhrms that

:41:34. > :41:40.the United States has conducted more than 2700 air strikes in Syria.

:41:41. > :41:44.Daily strike updates from the combined task force coalition shows

:41:45. > :41:48.that military forces have continued to attack Daesh terrorist in Syria

:41:49. > :41:53.at using bombers and remotely piloted aircraft... In a molent In

:41:54. > :42:01.recent days, these have included three strikes on an Isil tactical

:42:02. > :42:09.unit, I am reading from the report from the United States military

:42:10. > :42:21.near Raqqa, two strikes, vehicles destroyed. The point is, thdre is

:42:22. > :42:27.bombing currently under way in Syria, and to pretend that what is

:42:28. > :42:34.being proposed while not taking that into account is highly misldading.

:42:35. > :42:41.In Syria, does he think there is a legitimate case for operations, or

:42:42. > :42:46.does he want them to withdr`w? I am hugely supportive of efforts which

:42:47. > :42:51.can lead to stabilisation in Iraq. It is very important, but I would

:42:52. > :42:55.like to stress, I would likd to stress one thing in particular. I

:42:56. > :43:00.think we have a particular responsibility towards the Kurds,

:43:01. > :43:03.both in Iraq and in Syria, `nd I would wish that the Prime Mhnister

:43:04. > :43:07.would use his good offices when dealing with Nato allies th`t we do

:43:08. > :43:14.not undermine the efforts in Iraq and Syria. I have answered the

:43:15. > :43:17.honourable gentleman, and wd ensure that Turkey does not bomb otr

:43:18. > :43:20.Kurdish allies. I will make some progress. The Prime Minister has

:43:21. > :43:27.asked us to listen to his c`se for bombing in Syria, and we have, and

:43:28. > :43:31.we have repeatedly asked two very specific questions, as have other

:43:32. > :43:38.members on all sides of this house. How will the UK plan secure peace on

:43:39. > :43:42.the ground in Syria? And I puote, as the House of Commons foreign affairs

:43:43. > :43:46.committee, which ground forces will take hold and administered

:43:47. > :43:49.territories captured from D`esh in Syria? The second question, the

:43:50. > :43:56.second question that I posed, how will the UK's plan ensure long-term

:43:57. > :44:02.stability and reconstruction in Syria, given that the UK spdnd 0

:44:03. > :44:05.times more bombing Libya th`n on its post-conflict stability and

:44:06. > :44:09.reconstruction? I ask the Prime Minister, how much does the Prime

:44:10. > :44:13.Minister estimates this will cost, and how much has he allocatdd from

:44:14. > :44:18.the United Kingdom? I would like to turn to those two questions, because

:44:19. > :44:23.on the issue of ground forcds, we have been told that there are 7 ,000

:44:24. > :44:29.troops opposed to Assad and Daesh which could take the territory that

:44:30. > :44:33.Daesh currently holds. The problem is that only a part of thosd forces

:44:34. > :44:38.are moderate, and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever

:44:39. > :44:42.that they would definitely deploy from other parts of the country to

:44:43. > :44:47.counter Daesh. I asked the Prime Minister in an intervention, and

:44:48. > :44:52.members will have heard, of those 70,000, how many are moderate, and

:44:53. > :44:57.how many are fundamentalists? I have not had an answer to that qtestion,

:44:58. > :45:02.and I would invite any membdr from the Government site to tell the rest

:45:03. > :45:09.of the house what that is, come on! Silence! Silence. On this critical

:45:10. > :45:15.issue, a critical issue posdd by the... I will give way in a moment

:45:16. > :45:20.to the esteemed chairman of the intelligence and security committee,

:45:21. > :45:24.of course I will, but this hs an absolutely vital point. It was

:45:25. > :45:30.raised by the Foreign Affairs Select Committee, 80 part of the argument

:45:31. > :45:34.of having any credibility that a bombing strategy will lead to medium

:45:35. > :45:40.and long-term peace in Syri` and dealing with Daesh is that there are

:45:41. > :45:45.ground forces capable of taking the ground when they manage to displace

:45:46. > :45:50.and degrade Daesh forces. Wd have asked repeatedly, and I ask again,

:45:51. > :45:53.will any... I will give way if any member from the government side

:45:54. > :45:58.wants to elucidate and expl`in to the house what the Prime Minister

:45:59. > :46:02.was not. I see the Foreign Secretary chuntering, I am happy to ghve way

:46:03. > :46:12.if he will confirm from the dispatch box, what is the make up...

:46:13. > :46:19.Mr Speaker, I have now asked a question directly to the Prhme

:46:20. > :46:23.Minister, which he did not `nswer. I have challenged the Foreign

:46:24. > :46:26.Secretary to answer the question. Is there anybody else who will answer

:46:27. > :46:32.the question? I give way to the honourable gentleman. We asked a

:46:33. > :46:35.very similar point at the Ddfence Select Committee yesterday, and the

:46:36. > :46:42.point that the right arable gentleman is making is a nit-picking

:46:43. > :46:47.point. -- the right honourable gentleman. If he will hear le

:46:48. > :46:51.out... It is dancing on the head of a pin to try and achieve is that the

:46:52. > :46:58.honourable gentleman starts with. There are these people, we have to

:46:59. > :47:04.them, they are not on Assad's side, they are not an eyesore's shtes - we

:47:05. > :47:16.need to work with them. -- they are not on Isil's side. So the

:47:17. > :47:21.government was offered a ch`nce to answer, let me accept this

:47:22. > :47:27.intervention, if we are going to get an answer to the question of the

:47:28. > :47:30.70,000 non-villain-macro and non-Daesh sources, how many are

:47:31. > :47:40.moderate and how many fundamentalists? -- non-Ass`d. The

:47:41. > :47:46.honourable gentleman is a clever man and rarely asks a question he does

:47:47. > :47:51.not know the answer two, and he seems to be tied up on the 70,0 0.

:47:52. > :47:56.He seems to have forgotten the Kurds in Syria, the several battalions of

:47:57. > :47:59.Christians, and also the Ar`bs in north and north-east Syria, who will

:48:00. > :48:08.work with the Free Syrian Army to take Daesh. No answer! Anybody

:48:09. > :48:14.watching this debate and re`ding Hansard in future will be able to

:48:15. > :48:20.recognise that this question has been asked time and time and time

:48:21. > :48:23.again, and we have not had `n answer to that question. It is a

:48:24. > :48:33.fundamental, I have given away a significant number of times on the

:48:34. > :48:38.question and nobody has answered. Sorry, if my esteemed colle`gue the

:48:39. > :48:42.chairman of the intelligencd and security committee, is able to

:48:43. > :48:49.answer the question, I would be delighted. What interests md about

:48:50. > :48:52.that the right honourable gdntleman is putting forward is forward is

:48:53. > :48:56.evasive is perfectly legitilate questions, which should, I hope be

:48:57. > :49:03.and said in the course of the debate. What he glosses over his

:49:04. > :49:08.party's position on the current operations which, I think hd will

:49:09. > :49:13.agree with me, are in fact controlling Daesh's ability to do

:49:14. > :49:18.violence and cruelty in the area, and terrorism in Europe. If indeed

:49:19. > :49:24.those actions at the moment involving our allies both in Syria

:49:25. > :49:28.and Iraq are achieving that goal, I find it very difficult to understand

:49:29. > :49:34.how he can argue that we ourselves should not cooperate in this. Out of

:49:35. > :49:38.the greatest respect for thd honourable gentleman, I will come on

:49:39. > :49:42.later in my comments to somd of the questions he made, but I note

:49:43. > :49:46.respectfully that we have not heard and answer to the question which has

:49:47. > :49:50.been posed, the government front bench have the opportunity to tell

:49:51. > :49:54.the house, and I note they do not, so I will make some progress. If the

:49:55. > :50:01.honourable gentleman can answer I would be delighted. Lady! I thank

:50:02. > :50:07.the honourable gentleman for giving way. As a member of the Fordign

:50:08. > :50:12.Affairs Select Committee, I was in the Middle East last week, we went

:50:13. > :50:16.to Cairo, we went to a man, and we went to Beirut, cities which have

:50:17. > :50:22.also suffered destruction. We spoke to military people, counterterrorism

:50:23. > :50:28.people, and politicians. I can tell you how many people there are, it is

:50:29. > :50:36.about 10-15,000, that was the answer given by everyone there. My

:50:37. > :50:40.goodness, Mr Speaker, that hs a very important intervention from the

:50:41. > :50:43.honourable lady. From her experience, in having travelled the

:50:44. > :50:51.region, she is suggesting that the Government figures that we have been

:50:52. > :50:57.provided an massively wrong. This is a very, very important point, Mr

:50:58. > :51:01.Speaker. We are now hearing, on a crucial issue, raised by thd Foreign

:51:02. > :51:06.Affairs Select Committee, a crucial issue that, far from the 70,000 we

:51:07. > :51:09.have heard repeatedly, it is significantly less. These should

:51:10. > :51:15.worry us all, and I will make some progress. -- this should. The

:51:16. > :51:21.problem with this issue, and it is critical, is that only a part of the

:51:22. > :51:26.forces that the Prime Minister and his colleagues have spoken `bout are

:51:27. > :51:29.moderate, and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever that thdy would

:51:30. > :51:34.definitely be deployed from other parts of the country to counter

:51:35. > :51:37.Daesh. It appears to be tot`lly wishful thinking that, without a

:51:38. > :51:43.comprehensive ceasefire but in Syria, we can expect any redirection

:51:44. > :51:51.of any forces from other br`nds in Syria. -- other fronts. On

:51:52. > :51:54.stabilising and rebuilding Syria, the second question I posed to the

:51:55. > :52:00.Prime Minister, we were advhsed by the World Bank that it will cost

:52:01. > :52:05.$170 billion to rebuild Syrha. The Prime Minister has made a commitment

:52:06. > :52:08.to contribute ?1 billion towards this mammoth task, which is welcome,

:52:09. > :52:12.new money to deal with the rebuilding after the stabilhsation

:52:13. > :52:18.of Syria, which we welcome. We are entitled to ask, however, whether a

:52:19. > :52:23.contribution of less than 1$ of what is required is realisticallx going

:52:24. > :52:28.to be enough. Now, yesterdax, like some other members of the house I

:52:29. > :52:32.took the time to meet Syrian exile is to discuss their experiences and

:52:33. > :52:37.to hear their views. It was heartbreaking to hear about people

:52:38. > :52:42.who are literally surviving just an hope, of 16-year-olds who only wish

:52:43. > :52:46.to attend their makeshift schools in the basement while enduring barrel

:52:47. > :52:52.bombing by the Assad regime from above. And they ask whether we are

:52:53. > :52:57.seriously asking people to stop fighting Assad and moved to another

:52:58. > :53:01.part of the country to fight Daesh. They asked how we expect people to

:53:02. > :53:07.fight Daesh if they have no feeling of any support. Now, yesterday, Mr

:53:08. > :53:10.Speaker, we were bitten to `s parliamentarians by Syrians in the

:53:11. > :53:22.UK from many different organisations. -- we were written

:53:23. > :53:28.to. From the Syrian community south-west, Peace And Justice For

:53:29. > :53:33.Syria, the Syrian Welsh Sochety the Syrian Platform For Peace, `nd in

:53:34. > :53:38.their letter to us, they sahd that MPs are being ask the wrong question

:53:39. > :53:45.on Syria, that being whether or not to bomb Daesh. They said, and if I

:53:46. > :53:49.can just make the point, thdy said, from these many organisations from

:53:50. > :53:53.across the United Kingdom, that Daesh must be defeated for the sake

:53:54. > :53:57.of people in Syria as well `s the safety of people in Europe, of

:53:58. > :54:01.people in Britain as well. However, they stressed that the greatest

:54:02. > :54:06.threats to Syrians comes from Assad, rather than Daesh, where thd numbers

:54:07. > :54:11.of civilians killed by his forces being over 2.5 times the nulber of

:54:12. > :54:15.UK civilians killed in the Second World War. I give way to thd

:54:16. > :54:18.honourable gentleman. I am very grateful to him for giving way, he

:54:19. > :54:23.is making a very important point in this debate. Irrespective of how

:54:24. > :54:28.this House of Commons votes tonight, isn't it important that we see a

:54:29. > :54:32.successful political resolution to the difficulties in Syria? @nd given

:54:33. > :54:36.that the Prime Minister has set out timescales where he expect there to

:54:37. > :54:40.be a transitional government, was he as surprised as I was at those

:54:41. > :54:45.timescales, given that the current impasse between the likes, on the

:54:46. > :54:51.one hand, of Russia and Iran, and on the other hand, the USA and France

:54:52. > :54:56.and others, in respect of the future of Assad? The honourable gentleman

:54:57. > :54:59.makes a good point, and I'm coming onto the political process, but I

:55:00. > :55:04.would like to give way to the honourable gentleman who I would

:55:05. > :55:09.wish to commend for his support of the campaign that we call D`esh by

:55:10. > :55:13.its real name, Daesh, and nothing else. I thank the honourabld

:55:14. > :55:17.gentleman and his entire party for being one of the first to stpport me

:55:18. > :55:21.in this campaign, when I first raised the issue, and changhng the

:55:22. > :55:28.terminology to defeat this dvil organisation. Will you join me, and

:55:29. > :55:33.I urge the leader of the others to join his Shadow Foreign Secretary,

:55:34. > :55:38.to join the Equalities Minister to join the Treasury minister, to

:55:39. > :55:40.ensure that we use the right terminology to defeat these

:55:41. > :55:47.terrorist organisations now that the Government has agreed to usd the

:55:48. > :55:50.proper terminology? I agree with everything that the honourable

:55:51. > :55:56.gentleman has said, and as somebody who is to Mendis Lee proud of having

:55:57. > :56:00.reported for the BBC World Service for nearly a decade, it is beyond me

:56:01. > :56:04.that my former employees cannot find it in themselves to use the

:56:05. > :56:06.appropriate terminology, and I call on them to do so. -- tremendously

:56:07. > :56:17.proud. Returning to the Syrian Zimdt, they

:56:18. > :56:19.made an appeal that civilian protection should be primarx concern

:56:20. > :56:24.in any military action by the UK. in any military action by the UK.

:56:25. > :56:29.And to protect civilians, MPs need to explicitly back concrete action

:56:30. > :56:37.to end Assad's air attacks on civilians. The SNP, as I believe all

:56:38. > :56:44.parties in this House and all members of this House, support the

:56:45. > :56:48.initiative to secure a ceasdfire in Syria, to transition to stable

:56:49. > :56:52.government and to counter tdrrorist groups, including Daesh. We believe

:56:53. > :56:57.these aims will only be sectred through agreement and a serhous

:56:58. > :57:00.long-term commitment to Syrha. This surely must be the key diplomatic

:57:01. > :57:05.priority for this comment, to make sure the timescale is as quhck as

:57:06. > :57:10.can be delivered. The UK must step up add support for the international

:57:11. > :57:20.support initiative and other diplomatic efforts, politic`l

:57:21. > :57:23.transition, -- combating Dadsh. . I believe the Government has not

:57:24. > :57:29.answered the questions posed by the foreign affair is committee of the

:57:30. > :57:34.House of Commons. In fact, neither do a majority who voted for the

:57:35. > :57:39.issue on the committee. In these circumstances, we cannot support the

:57:40. > :57:44.Government. It is important, however, Mr Speaker, and thhs is

:57:45. > :57:47.very, very important, that ` message goes out to our Armed Forces that

:57:48. > :57:52.regardless of the differencds we have in this place, we wish for

:57:53. > :57:57.their safety and we appreci`te their professionalism. This is

:57:58. > :58:01.particularly relevant for md as it would appear that most aircraft

:58:02. > :58:07.deployed to the region will be from RAF Lossiemouth in my consthtuency.

:58:08. > :58:11.The UK Government, Mr Speakdr, is going to have a huge problel with

:58:12. > :58:17.legitimacy and mandate for this operation in Scotland. It m`y well

:58:18. > :58:26.win the vote tonight, but it will do so with the support of only two out

:58:27. > :58:29.of 59 Scottish MPs. An opinhon poll released today shows that 72% of

:58:30. > :58:35.Scots are opposed to the bolbing plans of the Government. In normal

:58:36. > :58:40.circumstances, in a normal country under these circumstances, the Armed

:58:41. > :58:45.Forces would not be deployed. Mr Speaker, I was a co-sponsor of the

:58:46. > :58:52.2003 amendment to oppose invading Iraq and I am proud to co-sponsor

:58:53. > :58:56.today's amendment opposing bombing in Syria. I appeal to colle`gues on

:58:57. > :59:00.all sides to make sure we do not ignore the lessons of Afghanistan,

:59:01. > :59:06.ignore the lessons of Iraq, ignore the lessons of Libya. Let's not

:59:07. > :59:09.repeat the mistakes of the past Let's not give the green light to

:59:10. > :59:12.military action without a comprehensive and credible plan to

:59:13. > :59:21.win the peace. Doctor Liam Fox. Mr Speaker, it is

:59:22. > :59:27.very important for the whold House that in this debate today wd are

:59:28. > :59:31.clear about what it is not `bout. This is not about provoking a new

:59:32. > :59:36.confrontation with Daesh. They have already confronted peace and decency

:59:37. > :59:41.and humanity. We have seen what they are capable of in terms of

:59:42. > :59:44.beheadings, crucifixions, m`ss rape. We have seen the refugee crhsis that

:59:45. > :59:48.they have provoked in the Mhddle East with this terrible hum`n cost.

:59:49. > :59:54.And we have seen their willhngness to export jihad whenever thdy are

:59:55. > :00:00.able to do so. It is also not about bombing Syria per se as it hs being

:00:01. > :00:03.portrayed outside. It is thd extension of a military campaign we

:00:04. > :00:08.are already following in Ir`q, across what is in effect in

:00:09. > :00:13.nonexistent border in the s`nd. I'm afraid the unwillingness of the

:00:14. > :00:16.Leader of the Opposition to answer the question of my honourable friend

:00:17. > :00:20.will give the clear impresshon he's not just against the extenshon of

:00:21. > :00:26.the bombing campaign into Sxrian territory, but he is against bombing

:00:27. > :00:31.Daesh at all. That is a verx serious position to hold. To understand the

:00:32. > :00:35.nature of the threat we facd and why it requires a military response we

:00:36. > :00:41.need to understand the mindset of the jihadist Pozzas -- the

:00:42. > :00:47.jihadists. They dehumanise their opponents by calling them infidels,

:00:48. > :00:52.heretics, apostates. Let's remember the majority of those they have

:00:53. > :00:57.killed our other Muslims, not those of other religions. They tell

:00:58. > :01:01.themselves it is God's work and because it is God's work thdy accept

:01:02. > :01:08.no man-made restraint, no l`ws, no borders and they use extremd

:01:09. > :01:13.violence in their self appohnted mission. And we have seen that

:01:14. > :01:17.violence on the sands of Tunisia, we heard it in the screams of the

:01:18. > :01:22.Jordanian pilot who was burned alive in a cage. We need to be under no

:01:23. > :01:26.illusions about the nature of the threat we face. This is not like

:01:27. > :01:29.some of the armed political terrorist we have seen in the past.

:01:30. > :01:36.This is a fundamentally different threat. This is a group that does

:01:37. > :01:41.not seek accommodation. Thex seek domination. We need to understand

:01:42. > :01:51.that before we are able to determine what our response should be.

:01:52. > :01:56.He will know of concerns about Daesh starting to leave Syria, to go to

:01:57. > :02:02.Libya. Does he agree with md that when we are tackling Daesh hn Syria,

:02:03. > :02:06.we will have to confront thdm as well at some stage in Libya? My

:02:07. > :02:10.honourable friend is absolutely right. We have not chosen this

:02:11. > :02:18.confrontation. They have chosen to confront us. And the free world and

:02:19. > :02:21.decency and humanity. It is absolutely a pre-requisite first

:02:22. > :02:26.ability and peace in the future that we deal with this threat whdrever it

:02:27. > :02:32.manifest itself. There are two elements, the military and political

:02:33. > :02:36.elements. On the military qtestion, will British bombing, as part of an

:02:37. > :02:42.allied action in Syria, be ` game changer? No, it will not. Btt it

:02:43. > :02:46.will make a significant and serious contribution to what the alliance is

:02:47. > :02:49.able to do. And the Prime Mhnister is absolutely correct when he says

:02:50. > :02:53.some of the weaponry we possess enables us to diminish civilian

:02:54. > :02:58.casualties. That has a double importance. It is important from a

:02:59. > :03:02.humanitarian point of view. It is also important in not handing a

:03:03. > :03:08.propaganda weapon to our opponent in the region. Britain can contribute

:03:09. > :03:11.to this. We did it successftlly in Libya, minimising civilian

:03:12. > :03:17.casualties. It is not an unhmportant contribution to make. We must be

:03:18. > :03:22.rational and cautious about the wider implications. No conflict is

:03:23. > :03:25.ever won from the air alone. The Prime Minister was right to point

:03:26. > :03:32.out this is only part of a wider response. If we downgrade and

:03:33. > :03:35.degrade the command of Daesh, territory will need to be t`ken and

:03:36. > :03:39.it will need to be held. And I believe that ultimately we will need

:03:40. > :03:45.to see an international coalition on the ground if that is to be

:03:46. > :03:53.successful in the long term. There may be Syrian fighters, thex may be

:03:54. > :03:58.coordinating the international coalition, but we have to rdcognise

:03:59. > :04:03.that there needs to be a wider ability to take a whole territory.

:04:04. > :04:07.Can I say to those opposing the motion, the longer we wait to act,

:04:08. > :04:13.the smaller that number of `llies is likely to be. And the less their

:04:14. > :04:17.capability is likely to be `s part of a wider coalition. And if we do

:04:18. > :04:21.not have stability and security on the ground in Syria, there hs no

:04:22. > :04:30.chance of peace, whatever h`ppens in Vienna. Mr Speaker, on the political

:04:31. > :04:35.side, our allies simply belheve it is absurd for Britain to be part of

:04:36. > :04:42.a military campaign against Daesh in Iraq but not in Syria. It is a

:04:43. > :04:47.patented a militarily absurd position for us to hold and we have

:04:48. > :04:50.a chance to correct is todax. But we must not contract out the sdcurity

:04:51. > :04:56.of the United Kingdom to our allies. It is a national embarrassmdnt that

:04:57. > :05:01.we are asking our allies to do what we believe is necessary to tackle a

:05:02. > :05:06.fundamental threat to the sdcurity of the United Kingdom. This House of

:05:07. > :05:12.Commons should not stand for it And finally, Mr Speaker, when wd do not

:05:13. > :05:15.act, it makes us more difficult for us diplomatically to persuade other

:05:16. > :05:19.countries to continue their strikes. The peeling off of the UAE

:05:20. > :05:23.and Jordan and Saudi Arabia from the coalition attacking Daesh is of

:05:24. > :05:28.great significance. We have a chance to reverse that if we take ` solid

:05:29. > :05:33.position today. Mr Speaker, this motion and the action it proposes

:05:34. > :05:37.will not defeat Daesh but it will help. And alongside the Vienna

:05:38. > :05:41.process it may help bring pdace in the long term to the Syrian people.

:05:42. > :05:46.But without the defeat of D`esh there will be no peace. We have not

:05:47. > :05:51.chosen this conflict. But wd cannot ignore it. To do nothing is a policy

:05:52. > :05:55.position which will have its own consequences. If we do act, does not

:05:56. > :06:00.mean we will not see a terrorist atrocity in this country, would if

:06:01. > :06:04.we do not tackle Daesh at source over their, there will be an

:06:05. > :06:10.increasing risk we have to face the consequences over here. That would

:06:11. > :06:13.be an abdication of the prilary responsibility of this Housd of

:06:14. > :06:17.Commons, which is the protection of defence of the British people. That

:06:18. > :06:28.is what this debate is all `bout. Sir Gerald Kaufman. Mr Speaker,

:06:29. > :06:38.there is, of course, absolutely no doubt that Daesh, IS, is a vile

:06:39. > :06:46.loathsome, murderous organisation. The attack in Paris, the murder of

:06:47. > :06:56.130 innocent people, could just as well have been in London and their

:06:57. > :07:01.choice of Paris was a retalhation against French activity in their

:07:02. > :07:08.region, but that does not jtstify our taking activity if it wdre

:07:09. > :07:18.appropriate, relevant and above all a successful. They claim to call

:07:19. > :07:23.themselves Islamic. And the Prime Minister talked about reclahming

:07:24. > :07:34.Islam from them. They do not own Islam. Hundreds of millions of

:07:35. > :07:38.Muslims throughout the world are appalled by their murders, their

:07:39. > :07:47.beheadings, their kidnappings, all of the abominable things th`t they

:07:48. > :07:57.do. But Mr Speaker, our loading of IS, our wish to get rid of ht, the

:07:58. > :08:05.defeated, to stop it, is not the issue here today. The issue here

:08:06. > :08:11.is, what action could be taken in order to stop them? In order to get

:08:12. > :08:20.rid of them? And I have to say that I do not see such an action. The

:08:21. > :08:27.Prime Minister spoke about getting a transitional government in Syria. He

:08:28. > :08:34.spoke about the situation in Syria. I have been to Syria many thmes I

:08:35. > :08:38.did it with some distaste as Shadow Foreign Secretary and met ldading

:08:39. > :08:45.officials in the Syrian administration. Murderers. H knew

:08:46. > :08:53.they were murderers. They mtrder their own people. They murddred

:08:54. > :09:01.10,000 people in Hama alone. I would be delighted to see them got rid

:09:02. > :09:04.of. But they are not going to go. And when there is talk about

:09:05. > :09:09.negotiations in Vienna, the assumption that somehow or other

:09:10. > :09:18.that is going to result in getting rid of Assad, getting rid of the

:09:19. > :09:22.administration, is a delusion. Putin, one of the most detestable

:09:23. > :09:26.leaders of any stake in the world, will make sure that because they are

:09:27. > :09:35.his allies and because they sued him, action against them is not

:09:36. > :09:41.going to be successful. So what is the issue today? It is not `n issue

:09:42. > :09:47.about changing the regime in Syria. That would make me very, very happy

:09:48. > :09:56.indeed. It isn't about getthng rid of Daesh, getting rid of Dadsh would

:09:57. > :10:05.make me very happy indeed. Ht is about what practical action can

:10:06. > :10:12.result in some way in damaghng Daesh, in stopping their

:10:13. > :10:16.atrocities, in stopping the people who are fleeing from them, hn

:10:17. > :10:23.stopping the people who are flocking to them, including, sadly, some

:10:24. > :10:30.small number of people from this country.

:10:31. > :10:38.If what the Government were proposing today would, in anyway,

:10:39. > :10:43.not simply or not totally gdt rid of Daesh, but we can them in a

:10:44. > :10:49.significant way, so that thdy would not go on behaving in the abominable

:10:50. > :10:56.fashion that we see, I wouldn't have any difficulty in voting for this

:10:57. > :11:04.motion today. But there is absolutely no evidence of any kind

:11:05. > :11:10.that bombing Daesh, that bolbing Raqqa will result in an upstrge of

:11:11. > :11:22.other people in the region to get rid of them. What it would do might

:11:23. > :11:28.cause some damage - it won't undermine them. What it will

:11:29. > :11:32.undoubtedly do, despite the assurances of the Prime Minhster,

:11:33. > :11:39.which I am sure are given in good faith, it will kill innocent

:11:40. > :11:47.civilians. And I am not going to be a party to killing innocent

:11:48. > :11:53.civilians for what will simply be a gesture. I am not interested in

:11:54. > :11:58.gesture politics. I am not interested in gesture milit`ry

:11:59. > :12:02.activity. I am interested in effective military activity, and if

:12:03. > :12:08.that is brought before this house, I vote for it. When the previous

:12:09. > :12:18.Conservative government camd to us and ask for our support to get rid

:12:19. > :12:22.of Saddam Hussein from Kuwaht, I as Shadow Foreign Secretary formulated

:12:23. > :12:28.the policy that led Labour Lembers of Parliament into the division

:12:29. > :12:35.lobbies to vote for that. I am not interested in gesture is, I am

:12:36. > :12:39.interested in effective acthvity. This government's motion and the

:12:40. > :12:46.activity that will follow, hncluding military action from the air, will

:12:47. > :12:51.not change the situation on the ground. I am not interested in

:12:52. > :12:58.making a show. I am not intdrested in members of this house putting

:12:59. > :13:02.their hands up for something that, in their own hearts, they know will

:13:03. > :13:09.not work. And for that reason I shall vote against the government

:13:10. > :13:13.motion. Order, an eight mintte limit on backbench speeches will now apply

:13:14. > :13:17.with immediate effect. Mr Crispin Blunt. There are those who have

:13:18. > :13:23.honourably opposed intervention on every occasion since 2003, hncluding

:13:24. > :13:26.my honourable friend and Bella member of the Foreign Affairs Select

:13:27. > :13:31.Committee, the member for B`sildon and Billericay, the move today's

:13:32. > :13:37.principal amendment. Part of the strength of his case is that he was

:13:38. > :13:43.undoubtedly right over Iraq in 003 and on Libya in 2011, which is the

:13:44. > :13:48.subject of a committee inquhry. But it is my judgment that he w`s wrong

:13:49. > :13:54.last year to oppose our support for the government of Iraq against Isil.

:13:55. > :13:58.I do not know what he would say to the Yazidi families rescued by

:13:59. > :14:03.British forces from the terror that Isil brought, and I am satisfied

:14:04. > :14:09.that our military effort in Iraq over the last year has been to the

:14:10. > :14:14.enormous credit of our armed forces and the stabilisation of Ir`q in the

:14:15. > :14:18.face of a rapidly advancing threat from Isil. Wholly justified, a

:14:19. > :14:24.strong majority that this house then gave for that intervention. The

:14:25. > :14:31.reality we should acknowledge.. Of course. I will answer him as best I

:14:32. > :14:36.can, and the reason I think a number of us opposed the motion about as

:14:37. > :14:41.trikes in Iraq last year was very simply because we did not fdel then,

:14:42. > :14:46.and I have great reservations now, that we had a comprehensive plan. We

:14:47. > :14:52.have not beaten Isil in Irap, despite nearly 1 million security

:14:53. > :14:56.forces on the government paxroll, and that brings us to Syria, because

:14:57. > :15:05.we have nothing near that in Syria, and we still don't have that plan.

:15:06. > :15:08.The position in Iraq was desperate. Baghdad was threatened by the

:15:09. > :15:13.advance of Isil, and it was absolutely necessary that the

:15:14. > :15:20.international community went to the aid of the government and pdople of

:15:21. > :15:24.Iraq. He talks about the desperation in Iraq. I have just had an e-mail

:15:25. > :15:29.from someone who I will keep anonymous, because they are working

:15:30. > :15:33.in Raqqa, and they say this - Daesh are the death that is stretching

:15:34. > :15:37.from the east, when you see them, it is as if you are seeing the angel of

:15:38. > :15:41.death, they are in Raqqa right now, how can I carry on exposing my child

:15:42. > :15:48.to severed heads and hanging bodies on a daily basis? A mother hn Raqqa.

:15:49. > :15:51.Well, I agree with my honourable friend, the reality we have to

:15:52. > :15:56.acknowledge is that whether we like it or not, Isil is at war whth us.

:15:57. > :16:01.We don't have to confess sole case about weapons of mass destrtction,

:16:02. > :16:05.nor is this about a threat to the citizens of a country from their own

:16:06. > :16:11.government. This is about pdople at war with us and our values `nd our

:16:12. > :16:16.society. This is not a war of choice. And I have not spokdn to

:16:17. > :16:22.anyone, Mr Speaker, Wouda Mdrs from the proposition that Isil mtst be

:16:23. > :16:33.denied the territory that they control. Who -- who demurs. The

:16:34. > :16:38.retailing of this territory is an immediate and urgent requirdment.

:16:39. > :16:42.This, therefore, is the mission - whilst a civil war rages in Syria,

:16:43. > :16:50.it is virtually impossible to achieve that. That is the ndcessary

:16:51. > :16:53.first step. And finally, after the negotiations and the agreemdnt of a

:16:54. > :16:58.Syria international support group in Vienna on the 14th of November, a

:16:59. > :17:03.way can be seen to that transition. Before then, I don't believd the

:17:04. > :17:07.Government was able to offer an answer to our question of which

:17:08. > :17:11.ground forces would stay cold and administered the territories

:17:12. > :17:14.captured from Isil in Syria to the satisfaction of the committde. -

:17:15. > :17:19.would take hold. In the wakd of that, I believe they can and did,

:17:20. > :17:24.and indeed the Prime Ministdr made the points today when he mentioned

:17:25. > :17:29.the real plan. It is the re`l plan, the ideal solution, which is

:17:30. > :17:34.referenced on page 20 of thd Prime Minister's response to the Foreign

:17:35. > :17:37.Affairs Select Committee whdn he envisages the political transition

:17:38. > :17:42.in Syria allowing a new leadership and reform of the Syrian Ar`b army

:17:43. > :17:47.to enable it to tackle terrorist groups in defence of the Syrian

:17:48. > :17:53.nation. The Syrian army, fighting alongside the Free Syrian Army,

:17:54. > :17:57.ideally needs to be the forces that reclaim Syria for a new Syrhan

:17:58. > :18:02.republic. But we should not imagine for one minute that this is a task

:18:03. > :18:10.they will be able to accomplish on their own. We need to infludnce the

:18:11. > :18:14.policy of our coalition partners, and the policy of the whole

:18:15. > :18:21.international community to face up to the reality that this entails.

:18:22. > :18:25.This is the crucial issue. How would we, the United Kingdom, exercise the

:18:26. > :18:30.greatest influence? Everythhng I have heard in the last month, taking

:18:31. > :18:35.evidence on this issue, suggests that our role as a compromised and

:18:36. > :18:42.limited member of the coalition against Isil operating only in Iraq

:18:43. > :18:46.weakens that influence. Now, we can debate, now we can debate the

:18:47. > :18:48.efficacy of air strikes and the additional capability that Brimstone

:18:49. > :18:53.missile is bring to the whole coalition. But the truth is we all

:18:54. > :19:00.know that those issues are larginal to the outcome. What is not marginal

:19:01. > :19:05.to the outcome is getting the international politics right, and it

:19:06. > :19:10.is not in the interests of our country, or the people we

:19:11. > :19:15.represent, for this house to deny the Government the authoritx it

:19:16. > :19:20.needs today. I am now satisfied that the Government who, along whth the

:19:21. > :19:23.Americans, helped block the transition process by our

:19:24. > :19:27.preconditions about the rold of Bashar al-Assad, can now pl`y a

:19:28. > :19:31.critically constructive rold in the transition. Indeed, my crithcism of

:19:32. > :19:36.today's motion is that the Government should be seeking wider

:19:37. > :19:40.authority from the house. Lhmiting the targeting of Isil and excluding

:19:41. > :19:46.Al-Nusra and any future terrorist groups that will be listed by the

:19:47. > :19:51.United Nations, as envisaged under the UN Security Council resolution

:19:52. > :19:56.to 249, is a restriction I do not understand. If armed groups put

:19:57. > :20:00.themselves beyond recall in the group of the Security Counchl, then

:20:01. > :20:05.our armed forces should be authorised to act within thd law.

:20:06. > :20:09.Equally, the limitation of deploying UK troops in ground combat

:20:10. > :20:14.operations, I believe, shows a lack of foresight. We know that both

:20:15. > :20:19.Syrian and Iraqi armed for so is art going to need the maximum possible

:20:20. > :20:27.help which arguably should hnclude the embedding of... In the fighting

:20:28. > :20:32.echelon gave ability, including artillery and engineers, as well as

:20:33. > :20:35.comprehensive logistics, service, command and control and comd

:20:36. > :20:40.indications functions. Wherd will these come from Jim and the truth is

:20:41. > :20:47.that since this mission must succeed, these war winning

:20:48. > :20:50.capabilities may need to be found from beyond the neighbouring Sunni

:20:51. > :20:55.countries and the whole of the United Nations, with effecthve

:20:56. > :21:00.military capability, may be required to provide that, including ts.

:21:01. > :21:06.However, if the government has chosen... I am afraid I cannot give

:21:07. > :21:11.way to my honourable colleague and friend on the committee, who has

:21:12. > :21:15.made such an excellent imprdssion on the committee so far, because I am

:21:16. > :21:21.time-limited. If there is thme at the end, I will take his

:21:22. > :21:26.intervention. However, if the Government has chosen a path that is

:21:27. > :21:32.going to require it to come back to this house for more authority, then

:21:33. > :21:36.that is the Government's choice To my mind, Isil is such a cle`r and

:21:37. > :21:42.present danger to the civilhsed world that, if all necessarx means

:21:43. > :21:47.are endorsed by the Securitx Council, then so should this house.

:21:48. > :21:50.The foreign affairs committde will continue in choir in into the

:21:51. > :21:54.international strategies to defeat Isil, and on behalf of of this

:21:55. > :21:58.house, to hold the Government to account in detail. -- will continue

:21:59. > :22:03.to enquire. The right honourable lady, who is sadly and well, but

:22:04. > :22:08.hopefully in recovery, we whsh you a speedy recovery, has communhcated to

:22:09. > :22:12.me that she would be supporting the Government this evening. Thd

:22:13. > :22:15.honourable member for Ilford South's view does not take luch

:22:16. > :22:23.guessing as to which aside he would be on this evening. In my jtdgments,

:22:24. > :22:25.this house will best discharge its responsibilities by giving our

:22:26. > :22:32.government the authority it needs not just to act without

:22:33. > :22:36.international partners against this horror, but to influence thdm to

:22:37. > :22:40.make the necessary compromises in their national objectives and to

:22:41. > :22:45.ensure the collective securhty of all nations, and I give way to my

:22:46. > :22:49.honourable friend. I want to thank the member for Reigate, and if I can

:22:50. > :22:52.take the opportunity to pay tribute to his work as chairman of this

:22:53. > :22:57.committee, we will be on opposite sides tonight, but I pay trhbute to

:22:58. > :23:02.that. He mentioned the point about where we would sit, and durhng our

:23:03. > :23:05.evidence, it says in the report several witnesses suggested that by

:23:06. > :23:09.participating in military action against Isil in Syria, the TK would

:23:10. > :23:16.actually compromised its diplomatic capability. That a point whdre we

:23:17. > :23:20.will have to come to our own conclusions. I have to say to him

:23:21. > :23:23.and to the house that nothing I have heard in the last month as pointed

:23:24. > :23:29.towards anything except the opposite of that conclusion. Ministers have

:23:30. > :23:33.been clear about that evidence, every single country we went to who

:23:34. > :23:37.was asked this question, sahd that the UK position was, but mice by the

:23:38. > :23:44.fact that we were only have been and have out of the coalition. ,- was

:23:45. > :23:46.compromised. It is a position of no conceivable diplomatic benefit and

:23:47. > :23:50.one that is a position of no conceivable diplomatic benefit and

:23:51. > :23:56.one that this's challenge is that we were both present 12 years `go when

:23:57. > :23:59.a previous Prime Minister m`de a compelling performance and we made

:24:00. > :24:06.the UK party to a disaster hn the Middle East. It is right th`t we

:24:07. > :24:10.should be mindful of our recent history, but we must not be

:24:11. > :24:20.hamstrung by it. Misses Margaret Beckett. -- Mrs. This debatd centres

:24:21. > :24:24.on national security and thd safety of our constituents, and thdre will

:24:25. > :24:30.be differences of view withhn and between every party in this house,

:24:31. > :24:36.so in good faith and conscidnce members will reach different

:24:37. > :24:40.conclusions. Anybody who approaches today's debate without the gravest

:24:41. > :24:45.doubts, reservations and anxieties simply has not been paying

:24:46. > :24:48.attention. But we are sent here by our constituents to exercisd our

:24:49. > :24:55.best judgments, each our own best judgment. This is a debate of

:24:56. > :25:01.contradictions, the terms of the motion echoing the UN resolttion,

:25:02. > :25:03.are almost apocalyptic end the threat they describe as an

:25:04. > :25:08.unprecedented threat to international peace and sectrity.

:25:09. > :25:14.The proposal before as a, as my honourable friend for Gordon said,

:25:15. > :25:19.amounts to a relatively minor extension of action we are `lready

:25:20. > :25:23.undertaking. -- the proposal before us. We are being asked to act in

:25:24. > :25:29.Iraq and Syria precisely because that is what Daesh do and their

:25:30. > :25:32.headquarters is in Syria. Wd are being ask to make a further

:25:33. > :25:38.contribution to an existing international effort to contain

:25:39. > :25:41.Daesh from extending the maxhem and bloodshed that accompanies their

:25:42. > :25:47.every move even more widely across the Middle East.

:25:48. > :25:53.Serious questions are being raised and I respect those who raise them.

:25:54. > :25:59.There is unease about ground forces, proper concern about the

:26:00. > :26:03.strategy that we engage and about the aftermath, about rebuilding

:26:04. > :26:10.Some say simply that innocent people are more likely to be killed.

:26:11. > :26:15.Military action does create casualties, however much we try to

:26:16. > :26:19.minimise them. So, should wd, on those grounds, abandon action in

:26:20. > :26:26.Iraq, although we undertake it at the request of the government there,

:26:27. > :26:28.and it seems to be making a difference? Should we take no

:26:29. > :26:32.further action against Daesh, who are themselves killing innocent

:26:33. > :26:36.people and striving to kill them all, every day of the week? Or

:26:37. > :26:44.should we simply leave it to others? If we make ourselves a

:26:45. > :26:48.bigger target for Daesh att`ck, we are and we will remain a target

:26:49. > :26:52.There is no good wondering `bout that, Daesh has told us so `nd

:26:53. > :26:56.continues to tell us with every day that passes. We might as well take

:26:57. > :27:01.them not just at their word but at their deeds. They have sought out

:27:02. > :27:06.our fellow countrymen to kill, including aid workers and other

:27:07. > :27:11.innocent people and whatever we decide today, there's no dotbt that

:27:12. > :27:16.Babel do so again. Nor is the consequence of inaction simply Daesh

:27:17. > :27:22.controlling more territory `nd land. We have seen what happens when they

:27:23. > :27:30.take control. The treatments of groups such as the Yazidis hn all

:27:31. > :27:36.its horror should make is unwilling to contemplate any further dxtension

:27:37. > :27:42.of Daesh claiming territory. In action Leeds, that way, the death

:27:43. > :27:47.and destruction. Quite separately, there are those opposed in principle

:27:48. > :27:54.to action who doubt the effhcacy of what is proposed, and the coalition

:27:55. > :27:58.strategy that rests solely on bombing, they say, will havd little

:27:59. > :28:04.effect. Well, tell that to the Kosovans, and don't forget that if

:28:05. > :28:06.they had been no bombing thdre perhaps 1 million Albanian Luslim

:28:07. > :28:14.refugees would have been sedking refuge in Europe. Tell that to the

:28:15. > :28:16.Kurds in Kobane, who have bden pleading for international `ir

:28:17. > :28:22.support without which they felt they were losing control to Daesh. Tell

:28:23. > :28:27.them in Sierra Leone, that lilitary action should always be avohded

:28:28. > :28:31.because there would be casu`lties. Their state and their peace were

:28:32. > :28:34.almost destroyed. It was Brhtish military reaction that brought them

:28:35. > :28:40.back from the brink. Of course it took place in conjunction whth

:28:41. > :28:45.political and diplomatic activity, and I share the view that it is

:28:46. > :28:46.vital that such activity is substantially strengthened `nd I was

:28:47. > :28:50.heartened by what the Prime Minister heartened by what the Prime Minister

:28:51. > :28:56.told us today. Our conference did call for a United Nations rdsolution

:28:57. > :29:00.before further action and wd now have a unanimous Security Council

:29:01. > :29:08.resolution. Moreover, that resolution calls on member states in

:29:09. > :29:19.explicit and unmistakable tdrms to combat the threat from Daesh, "by

:29:20. > :29:24.all means". And it falls to" first eradicate the safe footing that they

:29:25. > :29:28.have established in Iraq and Syria". Those are the words of the

:29:29. > :29:32.UN resolution. It speaks of the need to pursue the peace process, the

:29:33. > :29:42.year-end resolution calls on member states to Act now. -- UN resolution.

:29:43. > :29:47.Moreover, our allies have asked us for support and I would invhte the

:29:48. > :29:52.House to consider how we wotld feel and what we would say if wh`t took

:29:53. > :29:56.place in Paris had happened in London, if we had explicitlx asked

:29:57. > :30:08.France for support, and France had refused. These are genuinelx

:30:09. > :30:17.extremely... These are genuhnely extremely difficult as well as

:30:18. > :30:24.extremely serious decisions, but it is the virgins of the United Nations

:30:25. > :30:26.and the Socialist government in France that have been a tipping

:30:27. > :30:34.point in my decision to support military action. Mr Speaker, I refer

:30:35. > :30:39.the House to the amendment hn my name and that of other honotrable

:30:40. > :30:45.members. There are many on both sides of the House who feel that air

:30:46. > :30:50.strikes, extending air strikes into Syria, is not a wise move, hn the

:30:51. > :30:57.absence of a long-term strategy realistic strategy, both military

:30:58. > :31:02.and non-military, otherwise we risk repeating the errors that wd made in

:31:03. > :31:08.Iraq, in Helmand Province, hn Libya and would have made only two years

:31:09. > :31:11.ago in this House, if we had allowed the government to intervene on

:31:12. > :31:19.behalf of the rebels. That strategy must include comprehensive layout of

:31:20. > :31:24.military plans, it must include thought given at plans made for the

:31:25. > :31:28.aftermath and indeed an Exeter strategy, but many of these

:31:29. > :31:36.questions that we have asked remain unanswered. Can I just say, we all

:31:37. > :31:41.accept there are no easy answers in foreign policy nowadays, just a

:31:42. > :31:49.series of tough decisions. But, as such, there has got to be rdspect on

:31:50. > :31:54.both sides for those views held One or two people have suggested that

:31:55. > :31:59.one is playing politics or personalities with this isste. I

:32:00. > :32:07.would refer them to my voting record on Iraq, my opposition to the

:32:08. > :32:12.extension of the Afghan mission to Helmand province, my opposition to

:32:13. > :32:15.Libya and two years ago in this House, when we were asked to support

:32:16. > :32:23.or striking Assad. I have bden or striking Assad. I have bden

:32:24. > :32:32.called a pacifist and worse. And I would refer those people to my

:32:33. > :32:35.military record as a soldier, where I have got the medals to prove I am

:32:36. > :32:41.certainly not a pacifist, and also to my record in Northern Irdland as

:32:42. > :32:49.a platoon Commander during the 1980s. I have huge respect for my

:32:50. > :32:53.honourable friend. As a milhtary man, would he agree with me that in

:32:54. > :32:58.all military operations throughout history, the 1st thing that goes

:32:59. > :33:04.wrong on day one is the planning. However, that should not stop us

:33:05. > :33:10.from making the effort and hopefully succeeding at the end were, we hope,

:33:11. > :33:15.a peaceful solution can be found. I will not disagree with my noble

:33:16. > :33:18.friend at all but at the sale time, we owe it to those particip`ting in

:33:19. > :33:22.any military action that we think very carefully through the plans to

:33:23. > :33:26.make sure that they are as realistic, as cold rain set as

:33:27. > :33:41.possible, otherwise we do rhsk repeating past errors. -- as

:33:42. > :33:45.comprehensive as possible. While he makes an elegant point about the

:33:46. > :33:50.complexity of the situation and the suitable politicals solution in the

:33:51. > :33:55.end, surely the protection of our people and safety on streets has to

:33:56. > :33:59.my honourable friend. There are many my honourable friend. There are many

:34:00. > :34:06.on both sides of this House who oppose the government on extending

:34:07. > :34:11.these strikes. But don't forget some of us supported the inhtial

:34:12. > :34:15.deployment to Afghanistan in 20 1 on that basis because there was a

:34:16. > :34:21.clearly laid out strategy. What I do not see in this plan is a clearly

:34:22. > :34:24.laid out strategy and that hs why we have got to ask these questhons and

:34:25. > :34:30.try and get some answers. Pdrhaps the most damning accusation against

:34:31. > :34:35.those of us who say that we don t want to support the extension of

:34:36. > :34:40.military air strikes is that we are sort of sitting on our hands, we

:34:41. > :34:45.don't want to do anything, we want to stick our heads in the s`nd. I

:34:46. > :34:50.would refer to that point, that we do believe, many of us belidve

:34:51. > :34:55.anyway, in the need for milhtary action, to take on terrorists. Many

:34:56. > :35:00.of us supported the initial deployment to Afghanistan in 20 1,

:35:01. > :35:03.and we succeeded very quickly with a couple of years. Well we have

:35:04. > :35:08.trouble with Afghanistan was when the mission morphed into ond of

:35:09. > :35:11.nation building, when recently didn't realise what we were getting

:35:12. > :35:16.into and didn't have the resources to back it up. But we need `

:35:17. > :35:20.long-term strategy. So what should that be, what should it include Was

:35:21. > :35:24.no good standing in saying that we need one if we don't know what that

:35:25. > :35:29.should be put up let's talk about the non-military side of thhs. We

:35:30. > :35:32.have been talking about disrupting the financial flows and bushness

:35:33. > :35:38.interests of Daesh in this place for at least a year if not 18 months.

:35:39. > :35:42.There has been no noticeabld disruption of those business

:35:43. > :35:47.interests or financial flows. We have command of the skies in Syria.

:35:48. > :35:50.Why are we not disrupting those business and financial interests?

:35:51. > :35:55.There has been no real answdr about that. Why are we not doing lore to

:35:56. > :36:01.disrupt their prominence on social media? Again, we have talked about

:36:02. > :36:05.it in this place many times. I do not see any evidence that wd are

:36:06. > :36:10.disrupting their prominence. Something we should tackle. Perhaps

:36:11. > :36:15.above all, we should be tackling the ideology and the sectarianism that

:36:16. > :36:21.feeds the extremism that thdse groups, including Daesh, fedd off.

:36:22. > :36:27.That is a long-term strategx. You cannot do it overnight. Agahn, I do

:36:28. > :36:30.not see much evidence of th`t. Where are those awkward questions to our

:36:31. > :36:39.allies in the region about feeding this extremism? We are not getting

:36:40. > :36:45.that message across. But, c`n I come back to the point that has been

:36:46. > :36:49.raised before? Courtesy of the Foreign Affairs Committee rdcent

:36:50. > :36:52.visit to the Middle East, wd only managed to get back on Thursday

:36:53. > :36:56.morning in time for the Prile Minister's statement, about these

:36:57. > :37:04.mythical 70,000 troops. We `ll accept you cannot arm, born Isil out

:37:05. > :37:11.of existence through air strikes alone. It will take ground forces.

:37:12. > :37:14.But everybody is having trotble identifying what those ground forces

:37:15. > :37:21.should be and who should actually arm and supply them. We vishted

:37:22. > :37:24.various capitals, we visited Teheran, Riyadh, Abou Diaby, and

:37:25. > :37:30.spoke to many experts across many fields. And the point that kept

:37:31. > :37:35.coming across was the belief that there are very few moderates

:37:36. > :37:41.remaining in Syria after five years of civil war. Even if you bdlieve

:37:42. > :37:46.the 70,000 they get, if you believe that they were all moderates, what

:37:47. > :37:51.the strategy does not address, and I have not had an answer and H have

:37:52. > :37:56.asked this question before, is, what is stopping these moderates, once

:37:57. > :38:02.the common enemy, once they have been miraculously told to stop

:38:03. > :38:07.fighting Assad and take on Daesh, what is stopping them splintering

:38:08. > :38:15.into 100 or even 1000 milit`rists, as we saw in Libya? We ignore the

:38:16. > :38:19.lessons of Libya at our cost, because what we were being told on

:38:20. > :38:24.the ground only last week is that they are a very splintered, not a

:38:25. > :38:29.homogenous group by any strdtch of the imagination and they ard liable

:38:30. > :38:38.to turn on each other, just as they are to turn on any, if they are so

:38:39. > :38:43.upset, to do so. I have madd this point. I have allowed two

:38:44. > :38:48.interventions. I must now crack on. We should draw the lessons from

:38:49. > :38:57.Iraq. We are struggling to defeat Daesh in Iraq. Estimates vary, but

:38:58. > :39:00.between 800-900,000 securitx forces there a one-hour payroll. One

:39:01. > :39:07.strategy you could employ is to finish the job in Iraq, before we

:39:08. > :39:10.actually start thinking abott any long-term strategy in Syria. Again,

:39:11. > :39:16.we are struggling and that hs one of the fundamental differences between

:39:17. > :39:19.Iraq and Syria. As to the issue about sitting at the top table, can

:39:20. > :39:22.I address this point secondly, because this is a strong message

:39:23. > :39:27.when we were visiting the Mhddle East? We are already at the top

:39:28. > :39:33.table. China is not intending to intervene in this situation and yet

:39:34. > :39:40.sits at the top table in Vidnna as a member of the. We would do so also,

:39:41. > :39:44.and it is quite clear that we are showing solidarity with our

:39:45. > :39:50.partners. In conclusion, Mr Speaker, the short-term effect of Brhtish air

:39:51. > :39:55.strikes will be marginal. Most people accept that. As we intervene

:39:56. > :39:59.more, we become more responsible for the events on the ground and we lay

:40:00. > :40:04.ourselves open to the unintdnded consequences of the fog of war.

:40:05. > :40:09.Without a comprehensive str`tegy, air strikes will simply reinforce

:40:10. > :40:13.the West's long-term failurd in the region generally, at a time when

:40:14. > :40:23.there are already too many `ircraft chasing too few targets.

:40:24. > :40:30.Is strong pattern emerges. Time and again the executive makes a

:40:31. > :40:34.convincing case. Time and thme again it turns out to be wrong. Jtst a few

:40:35. > :40:37.weeks ago the Foreign Affairs Committee produced a very rdasonable

:40:38. > :40:42.reasons and thoughtful report arguing against air strikes in Syria

:40:43. > :40:46.in the absence of a comprehdnsive long-term strategy. Returning from

:40:47. > :40:50.my travels I and other colldagues hold to that view and it was the

:40:51. > :40:55.decision of the committee l`st night that the Prime Minister had not

:40:56. > :41:01.adequately answered or addrdssed our concerns. So, Mr Speaker, I will

:41:02. > :41:06.oppose this military action. I will intend to move the amendment in my

:41:07. > :41:12.name and that of other honotrable member is. We have stood at this

:41:13. > :41:15.very point before. We should have no excuse for repeating our errors and

:41:16. > :41:25.setting out on the same tragic misguided path once more.

:41:26. > :41:31.Johnson. It is during my time in Parliament

:41:32. > :41:34.that it has become a convention that this has authorise military action

:41:35. > :41:39.whereas previously it was for the Prime Minister to do under the guise

:41:40. > :41:43.of rural prerogative. Somethmes they would advise the House of Commons

:41:44. > :41:46.but often they did not. This new convention, I believe, placds

:41:47. > :41:49.responsibility or an Members of Parliament to weigh up the `rguments

:41:50. > :41:54.unfold according to their conscience rather than a parliamentary work. I

:41:55. > :41:59.am not sure if other parties are put on the spot or not but what I can't

:42:00. > :42:06.about is that nobody on any side of this House would seek to justify

:42:07. > :42:09.their vote tonight by pleadhng that poverty disagreed or agreed with

:42:10. > :42:13.people -- proposition, they were forced them to vote the way that the

:42:14. > :42:19.dead. On vote such as this with the exception of the front bench, the

:42:20. > :42:21.group is irrelevant. Wow I `m a fool to the Shadow Cabinet for the three

:42:22. > :42:25.vote my party has been afforded I do not think it will make the

:42:26. > :42:28.slightest difference to the bee that we make our decision. I will fold

:42:29. > :42:35.for the motion this evening for one basic reason. I believe that

:42:36. > :42:43.Isil-Daesh promotes a real danger to British citizens and that it has a

:42:44. > :42:48.dedicated unit that is not based in Iraq where the RAF is already fully

:42:49. > :42:52.engaged but in Syria. This dxternal operations unit is already

:42:53. > :42:58.responsible for killing 30 British holiday-makers on a beach in June

:42:59. > :43:04.there and the British rock fan who pack -- perished amongst 130 others

:43:05. > :43:09.in the atrocity in Paris a few weeks ago. It is true that this mhnute

:43:10. > :43:14.could have moved out of Raqpa but that is not what the intellhgence

:43:15. > :43:21.was a belief. In fact, just as Al-Qaeda needed the safe haven that

:43:22. > :43:26.they created in Afghanistan to plan 911 and other atrocities, so

:43:27. > :43:32.Isil-Daesh need their self declared caliphate to finance, train,

:43:33. > :43:38.organise and recruit to the wicked cause. Yes, there may be cells

:43:39. > :43:44.elsewhere but there is little doubt that the nerve centre is in Raqqa.

:43:45. > :43:53.Just over 14 months ago, thhs has sanctioned military action hn Iraq

:43:54. > :43:58.against Isil-Daesh by 524 votes to 43. Nobody expected that action to

:43:59. > :44:02.bring about the swift end to the threat from Isil, indeed, the Prime

:44:03. > :44:06.Minister in responding to an intervention said, and I quote, this

:44:07. > :44:12.mission will take not just lonths, but years. Many honourable `nd write

:44:13. > :44:17.honourable member svelte at that time that it was illogical to have

:44:18. > :44:20.the effectiveness of our action diminished by a border that

:44:21. > :44:26.Isil-Daesh did not recognisd. We were inhibited by the absence of a

:44:27. > :44:31.specific UN resolution and so there was some justification for this

:44:32. > :44:37.House to confine its response to one part of Isil held territory in

:44:38. > :44:44.September 2014. There can strely be no such justification in December

:44:45. > :44:50.2015, no such justification after Paris, no such justification given

:44:51. > :44:54.the requests for help from our nearest continental neighbotr and

:44:55. > :44:59.close ally in response to the murderous attack that took place on

:45:00. > :45:03.the 13th of November. No such justification... I will givd way in

:45:04. > :45:11.one second. No such justification after the UN resolution Council

:45:12. > :45:15.resolution number 49. Paragraph five of that resolution unanimously

:45:16. > :45:19.agreed and I quote, calls upon Member States that have the capacity

:45:20. > :45:25.to do so to take all necess`ry measures to eradicate the s`fe haven

:45:26. > :45:31.that Isil has established over a significant parts of Iraq and Syria.

:45:32. > :45:36.I give way. Thank you for taking my question.

:45:37. > :45:41.Can I put the point that I would have put to the honourable lember

:45:42. > :45:46.before, a similar call from France was made by Germany with Germany

:45:47. > :45:56.sending reconnaissance aircraft but refusing to bomb.

:45:57. > :45:59.Mr Speaker, Germany are not constrained by their historx. The

:46:00. > :46:06.point I am making is that after recent events mark where we sit now

:46:07. > :46:10.in this parliament having atthorise military action by the RAF hn Iraq,

:46:11. > :46:15.we can no longer justify not responding to that by extending our

:46:16. > :46:24.operations into Serbia. If we ignore that part of UN resolution 2449 that

:46:25. > :46:28.I have just mentioned, we are left supporting only the pieties

:46:29. > :46:31.contained in the other paragraphs, unequivocally condemning, expressing

:46:32. > :46:36.deep sympathy, reaffirming that those responsible must be hdld to

:46:37. > :46:40.account, in other words, Brhtain, this country, will be expressing

:46:41. > :46:45.indignation whilst doing nothing to implement the action unanimously

:46:46. > :46:50.agreed on a motion that in our role as chair of the Security Cotncil, we

:46:51. > :46:55.had helped to formulate. Furthermore, there is no argument

:46:56. > :46:59.against or involvement in attacking Isil-Daesh in Syria that cannot be

:47:00. > :47:05.made against our action in Hraq where we have helped to prevent

:47:06. > :47:09.Isil's expansion -- expansion and help to reclaim 30% of the territory

:47:10. > :47:13.it occupies. As the Prime Mhnister said that in his response to the

:47:14. > :47:17.Foreign Affairs Select Commhttee... I will give way and a second. The

:47:18. > :47:22.Prime Minister pointed out that this means that RAF tornadoes with these

:47:23. > :47:27.special ports, so sophistic`ted that they gather a 60% of the

:47:28. > :47:32.coalition's technical reconnaissance in Iraq can be used to similar

:47:33. > :47:36.effect in Syria so long as `nother country comes in to completd the

:47:37. > :47:43.strike. This is a ridiculous situation for this country to be in.

:47:44. > :47:47.I give way. Is the difference above then Iraq to Syria that on the

:47:48. > :47:52.ground in Iraq is a long established ally of hours in the Kurdish

:47:53. > :47:57.Peshmerga who actually wants to work with us? We do not have that in

:47:58. > :48:03.Syria, what the Prime Minister has been describing as a patchwork.

:48:04. > :48:08.My honourable friend makes `n important point. I have just rewrite

:48:09. > :48:13.the Hansard report from that event that we had in September 2004. This

:48:14. > :48:17.was not raised by anyone incidentally. The issues of what

:48:18. > :48:20.comes next and it is a very important consideration and we have

:48:21. > :48:27.expressed concerns on all shdes of the House. It must not stop us

:48:28. > :48:31.responding to what happened in Paris, responding to resolution 2249

:48:32. > :48:36.and the request for all countries with the capability to act now. The

:48:37. > :48:41.UN resolution did not say ldt us believe this. It said to act now. I

:48:42. > :48:46.do not believe there is anyone in this House that believes th`t

:48:47. > :48:52.defeating this motion tonight will somehow remove us from the line of

:48:53. > :48:57.fire, that Isil-Daesh and its allies will consider us to no longdr be a

:48:58. > :49:05.legitimate target for their barbaric activities. The 102 people lurdered

:49:06. > :49:09.in Ankara where at a peace rally. The seven plots foiled by the

:49:10. > :49:13.security services so far thhs year where all planned against us before

:49:14. > :49:18.this motion was even conceived. Our decision today will not altdr

:49:19. > :49:24.Isil-Daesh's contempt for this country and our way of life one

:49:25. > :49:29.iota. But it could, I believe, affect their ability to plan and

:49:30. > :49:33.execute their attacks. If it does not destroy this capability in

:49:34. > :49:37.Syria, it will force their dxternal operations unit to move and in so

:49:38. > :49:42.doing make it more exposed `nd less effective. The motion resents a

:49:43. > :49:46.taken forward by the intern`tional taken forward by the intern`tional

:49:47. > :49:50.community to bring about thd transformation in Syria that we all

:49:51. > :49:55.want to see and we are promhsed regular updates as part of this

:49:56. > :49:59.motion on that aspect. Furthermore, Mr Speaker, I believe it medts the

:50:00. > :50:04.standards that many members will have set for endorsing military

:50:05. > :50:11.action now that the conventhon applies. Is it a just cause? Is the

:50:12. > :50:17.proposed action last resort? Is it proportional? Does it have `

:50:18. > :50:21.reasonable prospect of succdss? Does it had broad regional support? Does

:50:22. > :50:27.it have a clear legal base? I think it meets all of those criteria. I

:50:28. > :50:33.find this decision as hard `nd difficult as anyone to make, I wish

:50:34. > :50:36.I had a frankly, the self-rhghteous certitude of the finger jabbing

:50:37. > :50:42.representatives of our new `nd kinder type of politics who will no

:50:43. > :50:49.doubt soon be contacting those of us who support this motion tonhght But

:50:50. > :50:55.I believe that Isil-Daesh h`s to be confronted and destroyed if we are

:50:56. > :50:59.to properly defend our country and other way of life and I belheve that

:51:00. > :51:04.this motion provides the best way to achieve this objective.

:51:05. > :51:10.Dr Julian Lewis. Thank you, Mr Speaker from `

:51:11. > :51:14.honourable member have been asked to back it strikes against Daesh and

:51:15. > :51:21.2-stroke solidarity with our French and American friends. Yet, ` gesture

:51:22. > :51:28.of solidarity however sincerely meant cannot be a substitutd for

:51:29. > :51:33.hard-headed strategy. Most defence committee members probably hntend to

:51:34. > :51:40.vote for such your strikes, but I shall vote against your strhkes in

:51:41. > :51:45.the absence of credible grotnd forces as ineffective and

:51:46. > :51:49.potentially dangerous, just as I voted against the proposal to bomb

:51:50. > :51:55.President Assad in 2013. Indeed the fact that the British government

:51:56. > :52:03.wanted to bomb first one side and then the other in the same civil war

:52:04. > :52:12.in such a short space of tile illustrates to my mind a vacuum at

:52:13. > :52:18.the heart of our strategy. @t least we are now targeting our de`dly

:52:19. > :52:25.Islamist enemies rather than trying to bring down yet another dhctator

:52:26. > :52:31.with the same like the results as in Iraq and in Libya. Daesh must indeed

:52:32. > :52:40.be driven out of its territory militarily, but this can be done

:52:41. > :52:45.only by a credible force, which is ready and able to do the fighting on

:52:46. > :52:55.the ground. So, who will supply this force without which air strhkes

:52:56. > :53:00.cannot prevail? The failure of the ineptly named Arab Spring in so many

:53:01. > :53:05.countries shows the two most likely outcomes, a victory for

:53:06. > :53:14.authoritarian dictatorship on the 1 hand or a victory for revolttionary

:53:15. > :53:18.Islamist on the other. Moderation and democracy have barely fdatured

:53:19. > :53:26.in the countries affected and Syria seems to be no exception. I am sorry

:53:27. > :53:34.to see, genuinely sorry to say that we face a choice between a very

:53:35. > :53:41.nasty authoritarians and Islamist totalitarians, there is no third

:53:42. > :53:46.way. Our government, however, is in denial about this. It does concede

:53:47. > :53:52.that your strikes must be in support of ground forces and has cole up

:53:53. > :54:00.with a remarkable figure from the Joint Intelligence Committed of

:54:01. > :54:06.70,000 so-called moderate fhghters, with whom we can supposedly

:54:07. > :54:13.coordinate our air strikes. It is very doubtful, however, that where

:54:14. > :54:19.such an alliance successful that the territory freed from Daesh would

:54:20. > :54:25.cease to be under Islamist control. I think I heard you first.

:54:26. > :54:28.Thank you for giving way. Pdugeot comment specifically on the

:54:29. > :54:33.Independent reports that indicate the Free Syrian Army are currently

:54:34. > :54:40.selling supplied weapons to Daesh in their own fight against Ass`d?

:54:41. > :54:45.It is certainly true that there have been well documented cases of such

:54:46. > :54:50.weapons ending up in the hands of Daesh, however, I would not wish to

:54:51. > :54:56.tie the entire Free Syrian @rmy with what some of its factions mhght have

:54:57. > :55:02.done or in fact, have done `s the honourable lady rightly suggests.

:55:03. > :55:08.But in an attempt... In a moment. Then an attempt to try and dstablish

:55:09. > :55:17.the facts about the 70,000, I have made inquiries of two peopld whose

:55:18. > :55:21.expert opinion I much admird. One is the writer and journalist, Patrick

:55:22. > :55:26.Cockburn, who is one of Britain s's leading commentators on Syrha and he

:55:27. > :55:31.was one of the first to write about the threat from what was thdn called

:55:32. > :55:37.Isis long before it captured Mosul. This is what he tells me and I

:55:38. > :55:41.quote, unfortunately, the bdlief that there are 70,000 moder`te

:55:42. > :55:49.opposition fighters on the ground in Syria is wishful thinking. The armed

:55:50. > :55:53.opposition is dominated by Hsis or Al-Qaeda type organisations. There

:55:54. > :55:59.are many small and highly fragmented groups of opposition fighters who do

:56:00. > :56:05.not like resident Assad or Hsis and could be described as non-extremist,

:56:06. > :56:10.but they are generally men from a single clan, tribe or village. They

:56:11. > :56:14.are often guns for hire and they operate under licence from the

:56:15. > :56:17.Al-Qaeda affiliate, the al-Nusra front or its new equivalent, another

:56:18. > :56:30.group. Many of these groups seek to present

:56:31. > :56:37.a moderate face abroad but remain sectarian and intolerant within

:56:38. > :56:42.Syria. Does he not agree with me that it is a ridiculous sittation?

:56:43. > :56:47.On the one hand the governmdnt praises the Kurds but on thd other

:56:48. > :56:53.and, it's ally, Turkey, is `ttacking them. How much more ridiculous can

:56:54. > :56:57.you get than that? I thank him for that contribution. It is not only

:56:58. > :57:03.ridiculous but highly dangerous I will just say in passing, to have

:57:04. > :57:09.separate conflicts going on within the same battle space withott

:57:10. > :57:12.reaching a proper agreement can lead us into all sorts of nasty

:57:13. > :57:20.confrontations, the worst of which would be if we ended up eyeball to

:57:21. > :57:24.eyeball with the Russians, when they and we share the same common enemy

:57:25. > :57:30.in Isil-Daesh. The second expert I consulted was our former ambassador

:57:31. > :57:44.or to Syria, and this is how he describes the Free Syrian Army. He

:57:45. > :57:47.calls it a ragbag... To losd the FSA appellation in order to sectre a

:57:48. > :57:52.Gulf, Turkish and Western ftnding. He goes on to say that most of the

:57:53. > :57:58.factions which are extremelx locally based have no interest whatsoever in

:57:59. > :58:02.being drawn into battles ag`inst groups which basically shard their

:58:03. > :58:08.sick herring agenda hundreds of miles away in areas with whhch they

:58:09. > :58:15.are unfamiliar -- sectarian agenda. So instead of having dodgy dossiers,

:58:16. > :58:26.we now have bogus battalions of "moderate" fighters. Now, I wish to

:58:27. > :58:32.continue as follows. Once D`esh has been driven out, if eventually we

:58:33. > :58:39.get an overall military str`tegy together, which adding a few bombing

:58:40. > :58:44.raids does not comprise, once it has been driven out, as it must driven

:58:45. > :58:49.out, there arises the questhon of the occupying power, becausd there

:58:50. > :58:54.will have to be an occupying power remaining in control for many years

:58:55. > :59:00.to come if other Islamist are not going to take over from Daesh. That

:59:01. > :59:07.occupying force must be a Mtslim one and only the Syrian governmdnt army

:59:08. > :59:13.is likely to provide it. Indeed as the Prime Minister himself `t

:59:14. > :59:19.knowledge in the Commons on 26 November, and I quote," in time the

:59:20. > :59:27.best round troops should be the Syrian Army." So, to bring latters

:59:28. > :59:32.to a close, air strikes alone are a dangerous diversion and

:59:33. > :59:39.distraction. What is needed is a grand military alliance involving

:59:40. > :59:48.not only the West but Russi`, and yes, it's Syrian government client,

:59:49. > :59:51.too. We need... I honestly think that my honourable friend the

:59:52. > :59:55.chairman of the Foreign Aff`irs Committee has had more than his fair

:59:56. > :00:05.share of this debate, and I am going to make use of mine. We need to

:00:06. > :00:11.choose the lesser of two evhls and abandon the fiction of a cosy third

:00:12. > :00:15.choice. There is a genuine consensus now that the decision to relove

:00:16. > :00:22.Saddam Hussein was a terrible mistake. But Saddam Hussein was

:00:23. > :00:27.every bit as much of a vicious dictator as we are told that Assad

:00:28. > :00:31.is, so ask yourselves when xou are thinking about the hard chohce that

:00:32. > :00:39.has to be faced tonight, ask yourself this, you may feel pious

:00:40. > :00:44.about it, looking back on the wrong decision that was made about Saddam

:00:45. > :00:49.Hussein, but a very similar decision confronts us tonight. It is a

:00:50. > :00:55.question of choosing the lesser of two evils, not fooling oursdlves

:00:56. > :01:05.that there is a cosy third option which, in reality, is a fantasy

:01:06. > :01:09.Yvette Cooper. Thank you, Mr Speaker. We know that no parliament

:01:10. > :01:13.ever takes a more serious ddcision and what we should do to protect the

:01:14. > :01:18.security and safety of our nation and whether to put our forcds in

:01:19. > :01:22.harm's away. I know that evdry member of the House will be waned

:01:23. > :01:26.that decision seriously, because the truth is we have got those decisions

:01:27. > :01:29.wrong before and other governments have got those decisions wrong

:01:30. > :01:34.before. When we went into Iraq, in 2003 and when we failed to hntervene

:01:35. > :01:39.early enough in Bosnia a decade before that. And so, since the Prime

:01:40. > :01:47.Minister made his case last Thursday, I sought out a series of

:01:48. > :01:51.reassurances, some of which I have received and some of which H have

:01:52. > :01:54.not. And I do not believe the Prime Minister has made the most dffective

:01:55. > :02:00.case, so I understand why m`ny in this House feel that they are not

:02:01. > :02:05.yet convinced. I also feel that I cannot see that the coalition air

:02:06. > :02:12.strikes that are underway already in both Syria and Iraq, should somehow

:02:13. > :02:17.stop. And if they are not to stop and France has asked for our help, I

:02:18. > :02:20.do not think that we can sax no So I think that there are changes that

:02:21. > :02:25.need to be made to the government's approach, and I will argue for

:02:26. > :02:29.them, and there are limits on the approach we need to take, what I

:02:30. > :02:32.will also vote with the govdrnment on this motion tonight, even though

:02:33. > :02:37.I recognise how difficult that is for so many of us. The whold House

:02:38. > :02:44.agrees that we need a stratdgy that delivers peace and defeats Hsis

:02:45. > :02:49.Daesh. I disagree with any suggestion that this can be done as

:02:50. > :02:55.Isis first or Daesh first, because that simply will not work. Hn the

:02:56. > :03:00.end, we know that the Vienn` process is the process to replace the Assad

:03:01. > :03:05.regime that is dropping barrel bombs on so many innocent people `cross

:03:06. > :03:10.Syria that is crucial to prdventing the recruitment for Isis as well.

:03:11. > :03:16.And if we or the coalition `re seen to be siding with Assad or to be

:03:17. > :03:20.somehow strengthening Assad, that will increase recruitment for Daesh

:03:21. > :03:24.as well. I also disagree with the suggestion that somehow, thdre are

:03:25. > :03:27.70,000 troops who are going to step in and the purpose of these air

:03:28. > :03:33.strikes is to provide air cover for those troops to be able to take on

:03:34. > :03:37.and defeat Daesh, because wd know that is not going to happen any time

:03:38. > :03:40.soon. We know that they're not such forces anywhere near Raqqa, and we

:03:41. > :03:49.know, too, that those forces are divided. The air strikes will not be

:03:50. > :03:54.part of an instant, decisivd military campaign. I disagrde with

:03:55. > :03:57.those who say that instead of Isis first we should have Vienna first

:03:58. > :04:02.and wait until the peace process is completed in order to take `ir

:04:03. > :04:06.strike action against Daesh. That is why I think the coalition ahr

:04:07. > :04:11.strikes are still needed. Wd know that Isis is not going to bd part of

:04:12. > :04:17.the peace process. They will not negotiate. They will not negotiate.

:04:18. > :04:22.The we know, too, that they have continuous ambitions to exp`nd and

:04:23. > :04:28.continuous ambitions to att`ck us, to attack our allies and to have

:04:29. > :04:32.terror threat is not just in Paris and in Tunisia but all over the

:04:33. > :04:37.world, and anywhere that thdy get the chance. They hold oil,

:04:38. > :04:43.territory, communications, that they want to use the expand. And I don't

:04:44. > :04:49.think the coalition can simply stand back and give them free rein, while

:04:50. > :04:53.we work on that vital peace process. When coalition air strikes `re

:04:54. > :04:58.already in place involving France and Turkey and Jordan, the TS,

:04:59. > :05:01.Morocco, Bahrain and Australia, if we have evidence that there are

:05:02. > :05:06.communication networks that are being used, in order to plan attacks

:05:07. > :05:12.in Paris, Brussels or London, can we say that those coalition air strikes

:05:13. > :05:15.should not take place, to t`ke those communication networks out? If we

:05:16. > :05:19.have evidence that there ard supplied who's been used to plan an

:05:20. > :05:22.expansion to take over more territory, to increase their

:05:23. > :05:25.barbaric regime into wider spaces, do we really think that coalition

:05:26. > :05:32.air strikes should not be able to take those supply route out? And, if

:05:33. > :05:39.we think that the coalition air strikes should continue, can we

:05:40. > :05:44.really say no, when France, that has gone through the terrible ordeal of

:05:45. > :05:49.Paris, says we want -- they want our help in continuing those air strikes

:05:50. > :05:55.now? And I have argued in this place and elsewhere, continually, for our

:05:56. > :05:58.country to do far more, to share any international support for rdfugees

:05:59. > :06:01.who are fleeing the conflict, and I still think we should do much more

:06:02. > :06:07.and not leave it to other countries alone. That same argument about

:06:08. > :06:12.sanctions applies the securhty as well -- sanctuary. And I don't think

:06:13. > :06:16.we can leave it to other cotntries to take the strain. And I c`nnot

:06:17. > :06:20.ignore the advice from security experts, that without coalition air

:06:21. > :06:25.strikes over the next 12 months the threat from Daesh in the region but

:06:26. > :06:30.also in Europe and in Britahn, will be much greater. And I think we have

:06:31. > :06:36.to do our bit, to try to contain that threat, not to promise if you

:06:37. > :06:41.defeat or overthrow in the short-term, because we cannot, but

:06:42. > :06:46.at least to contain what thdy do. I also think it is important to make

:06:47. > :06:49.sure that we degrade their capacity to obliterate the remaining moderate

:06:50. > :06:55.and opposition forces, however big they are, because when Vienna gets a

:06:56. > :07:00.proper reading, it cannot shmply be a peace debate involving Assad and

:07:01. > :07:02.Daesh as the only forces left standing, because that will never

:07:03. > :07:10.bring peace and security to the region. So, if we are to do our bit

:07:11. > :07:14.and to take the strain, I think we also need to have more limited

:07:15. > :07:19.objectives and the Prime Minister has set out. In self defencd, to

:07:20. > :07:24.support the peace process, but not just to create a vacuum for Assad to

:07:25. > :07:30.sweep into. It makes the imperative of avoidance of civilian casualties

:07:31. > :07:33.even greater, because where there is any risk that people are behng used

:07:34. > :07:39.as human shields to cover t`rgets, however important those targets

:07:40. > :07:43.might be, those air strikes should not go ahead. It makes the

:07:44. > :07:46.imperative of civilian protdction even greater. And that is not

:07:47. > :07:51.mentioned in the government motion. It should be the central objective,

:07:52. > :07:54.not just for humanitarian rdasons to prevent the refugee crisis but to

:07:55. > :07:59.prevent the recruitment that fuels Isis. And I think time limits, too,

:08:00. > :08:04.because I do not support an open-ended commitment to air

:08:05. > :08:09.strikes, until Daesh are defeated, as I know the Foreign Secretary

:08:10. > :08:12.raised yesterday. Because that isn't working in six months or if it

:08:13. > :08:17.proves counter-productive, we should be ready to review and we should

:08:18. > :08:22.also be ready to withdraw. @nd we will need to review this. And I

:08:23. > :08:27.think, tonight, we should ldnd the government support and keep that

:08:28. > :08:30.under review, not to give them an open-ended commitment that this

:08:31. > :08:36.should carry on, whatever the consequences might be. And H would

:08:37. > :08:40.say finally to the government, I have accepted their argument that,

:08:41. > :08:44.if we want coalition air strikes to continue on an international basis,

:08:45. > :08:48.we should be part of that, but I would also urge them to accdpt my

:08:49. > :08:51.argument that we should do lore to be part of supporting sancttary for

:08:52. > :08:57.refugees who are fleeing thd conflict, too. And there ard no easy

:08:58. > :09:00.answers in here, but I would say, too, in the interests of cohesion in

:09:01. > :09:06.our politics and our countrx, the way we conduct this debate hs

:09:07. > :09:09.immensely important. None of us however we vote tonight, ard

:09:10. > :09:15.terrorists and advisors, and none of us will have blood on our h`nds The

:09:16. > :09:22.blood has been drawn by Isis-Daesh, in Paris and across the world, and

:09:23. > :09:27.that is who we stand against. A five-minute limit on backbench

:09:28. > :09:33.speeches will now apply. Mr Speaker, there has been a great deal

:09:34. > :09:38.of talk about solidarity with our French allies following the horrific

:09:39. > :09:43.events in Paris. It is all very well do metaphorically stand alongside

:09:44. > :09:47.our allies, we make a mockery of solidarity if we refuse to fly

:09:48. > :09:58.alongside them in the skies over Syria.

:09:59. > :10:04.And upon the world junior K`tie take action and with the company 's

:10:05. > :10:08.advanced editing argument that the Prime Minister has put forw`rd, we

:10:09. > :10:11.cannot ignore that call and expect our international partners to look

:10:12. > :10:19.at us with any shred of respect or goodwill. How can we ourselves have

:10:20. > :10:22.any self-respect when we le`ve this fight to breathe Kurdish wolen

:10:23. > :10:27.fighting with antiquated we`pons? This is not all about national pride

:10:28. > :10:31.among living up to our responsibilities or own

:10:32. > :10:36.self-respect, it is about kdeping the British people safe. Those at

:10:37. > :10:40.risk of being murdered by tdrrorists and others being brainwashed to join

:10:41. > :10:44.them. We are doing that. I welcome the announcement of the Prile

:10:45. > :10:47.Minister that ?5 million will go towards the establishment of the

:10:48. > :10:50.Commonwealth unit to counter extremism and the announcemdnt that

:10:51. > :10:58.he need to counter extremisl and the announcement that he made today in

:10:59. > :11:01.the UK. A professor at Oxford University has said that 95$ of BS

:11:02. > :11:09.recruits are signed up by friends and family. -- IS recruits. There

:11:10. > :11:12.are few things as dangerous as Matt Betts who think they can live

:11:13. > :11:19.outside of the law. It is one of the most barbaric and extremist enemies

:11:20. > :11:24.we have ever faced. Its ability to recruit ordinary Westerners, its

:11:25. > :11:28.commitment and ability to transport them into moderate suicide bombers

:11:29. > :11:34.and its lack of mercy to anx man, woman or child are unparalldled It

:11:35. > :11:42.rates, in sleaze and decapitates. Its victims are Yazidis, Muslims,

:11:43. > :11:48.French, British, Christians, Kurds. Its image of invincibility grows and

:11:49. > :11:53.it depends on battlefield vhctories worth looking along the way. It

:11:54. > :11:58.creates headlines which we `re forces its apocalyptic prop`ganda,

:11:59. > :12:02.so much so that a manager of an electronic store in Raqqa s`id that

:12:03. > :12:05.Daesh loses popularity amongst ordinary uneducated people when it

:12:06. > :12:11.loses its brilliant victorids and that for me is that the heart of

:12:12. > :12:14.this argument. The very destruction of the caliphate State in itself is

:12:15. > :12:20.the right thing because its existence along with its self

:12:21. > :12:27.proclaimed callous are nonsdnse that they have vowed the Wahhabi ideology

:12:28. > :12:32.and prophecy. Thank you for giving way I `m

:12:33. > :12:36.enjoying listening to your points. Do you that agree this motion

:12:37. > :12:41.tonight is not about military action alone in isolation, it is about a

:12:42. > :12:45.broader strategy? Tonight's motion is not just about

:12:46. > :12:50.military intervention, it is about to Keirin and diplomatic relations

:12:51. > :12:54.as well. We must break the political court that acts as an anchor to

:12:55. > :13:04.Raqqa and offers destruction to the damaged minds. Until we can

:13:05. > :13:07.demonstrate the weekend staff and -- humiliate BS, we will not stop those

:13:08. > :13:13.being attracted to its biddhng. Raqqa is its command and control, it

:13:14. > :13:18.is from there that it's his Pantic terror to control parts of Syria and

:13:19. > :13:25.Iraq and to try and undermine prophecies that have been ddclared

:13:26. > :13:29.in the likes of Syria, Liby`, Yemen, Nigeria, Pakistan and closer to

:13:30. > :13:34.home, to create, and and control cells in Europe. Mr Speaker, this

:13:35. > :13:38.caliphate cannot exist off on the green movement is because they are

:13:39. > :13:42.founded upon territorial authority -- authority. To destroy it and it's

:13:43. > :13:45.full you must take away its command of territory and to do that, you

:13:46. > :13:51.must take military action bdcause Daesh cannot be negotiated with

:13:52. > :13:54.They will not sit at a tabld and agree to a ten point plan for a

:13:55. > :13:59.political settlement. You h`ve to take the fight to them and H have

:14:00. > :14:02.not met anyone opposed to ahr strikes who is willing to go over

:14:03. > :14:08.and negotiate with them. Thdre is nothing that we have a part, there

:14:09. > :14:11.is nothing that we have that they want apart from our demise. They

:14:12. > :14:19.said recently that they will conquer our roads, break our crossings and

:14:20. > :14:22.enslave our women. As a Muslim woman I will stand with people of all

:14:23. > :14:26.faiths who bought this ideology the rhetoric and actions of this group.

:14:27. > :14:32.We have taking actions to ddstroy them. They are a threat and will not

:14:33. > :14:36.rest until they have destroxed us and stand for. For that reason, Mr

:14:37. > :14:43.Speaker, I will vote in favour of the government motion this dvening.

:14:44. > :14:50.Thank you, Mr Speaker. Therd is a group of us on this side who are not

:14:51. > :14:55.opposed to any action, but we also want to take action or throtgh that

:14:56. > :14:59.the strategy is not in placd. We are making the decision today on an

:15:00. > :15:03.overall strategy. We are under no illusion that there is no pdrfect

:15:04. > :15:07.strategy given the particul`r complex circumstances for w`r and

:15:08. > :15:12.insurgency in Serbia, there is no certainty in the Middle East. We

:15:13. > :15:19.want to reduce the threat of Daesh and a few more a strikes will not do

:15:20. > :15:23.that. -- Syria. We would like an overall strategy to confront Daesh

:15:24. > :15:30.that has been established in countries like Libya. I am not

:15:31. > :15:33.opposed to military action, but we believe there is a reasonable chance

:15:34. > :15:36.of success with the correct action. I do not believe the correct

:15:37. > :15:41.argument that bombing Daesh in Syria will increase the chances of a

:15:42. > :15:47.terrorist attack in the UK, that is the wrong action. Or that they

:15:48. > :15:55.propose indiscriminate warmhng of civilians. Being restricted to Iraq

:15:56. > :16:00.but we were invited in by an elected government and we have grown forces

:16:01. > :16:03.on the ground. We do not have that situation in Syria, in Syri` that is

:16:04. > :16:07.a more uncertain situation, it is complex and who do not have the grim

:16:08. > :16:13.forces that I believe we should have. The Prime Minister has

:16:14. > :16:19.said... I will give way. The fact was that the Iraq `rmy has

:16:20. > :16:22.been totally destroyed. There was no ground for speeding the Peshmerga

:16:23. > :16:25.Penny Mordaunt there are no in Syria.

:16:26. > :16:31.You can either save the Peshmerga, Djibril recall the Sunnis in Iraq

:16:32. > :16:34.and the Prime Minister agreds to that, but we never hear what

:16:35. > :16:38.happens. There is a lot mord they could be doing but the fact is that

:16:39. > :16:42.we have Armed Forces that wd support, the Peshmerga and the Iraq

:16:43. > :16:46.army, on the ground and that is the difference in terms of Syri`. The

:16:47. > :16:49.Prime Minister has said that it is important we stand by our allies,

:16:50. > :16:53.this is an argument that sole of our colleagues have stressed to me. It

:16:54. > :16:57.is a strong point. My response is that doing the correct thing must be

:16:58. > :17:03.the primary reason for our decision. The strategy by the governmdnt must

:17:04. > :17:07.add up. The French are very important allies and did not support

:17:08. > :17:10.our decision to go into Irap. A perfectly reasonable position to

:17:11. > :17:14.take because they did not think it was the right thing. We must do the

:17:15. > :17:19.right thing. It has been sahd Bishop not rely on our allies to bomb

:17:20. > :17:24.Serbia, but it is not as if we are not doing anything, we are hn Iraq

:17:25. > :17:36.and doing a lot. On the isste of these 2000 Syrian opposition

:17:37. > :17:39.fighters on the ground, we know that a large number of groups belong to a

:17:40. > :17:41.moderate group, as the Forehgn Secretary said Jason Day. There

:17:42. > :17:44.remains a degree of uncertahnty as to what they would bring to any

:17:45. > :17:48.peace negotiation. Many people are simply feeling Syria. The Prime

:17:49. > :17:53.Minister said in his speech last week about this and I welcole their

:17:54. > :17:57.progress made. Let us turn to the international group meeting in

:17:58. > :18:04.Vienna. There has been progress the pathway that the Prime Minister has

:18:05. > :18:07.set out these water dubbed @ssad a question. In his memorandum to the

:18:08. > :18:10.Foreign Affairs Select Commhttee he made the statement that there was

:18:11. > :18:13.difference is to be resolved, I asked the Foreign Secretary what

:18:14. > :18:19.those where, by way of example he said the Russians want to m`ke sure

:18:20. > :18:26.that the Assad regime takes on Daesh. That is a big differdnce in

:18:27. > :18:30.terms of where we are at thd moment. This may not be used by somd

:18:31. > :18:40.opponents, it is not my reason for not doing something. This is

:18:41. > :18:43.certainly not my position, H think I have been consistent on this matter

:18:44. > :18:48.from the beginning and it is a major stumbling block. We have looked at

:18:49. > :18:53.the examples in Iraq. A concerted campaign with drones, UK spdcial

:18:54. > :18:58.forces, a concerted attack on Al-Qaeda which with considerable

:18:59. > :19:01.success, but there was a surge in tens of thousands of Americ`n trips

:19:02. > :19:05.on the ground, the government has said that ground troops will be

:19:06. > :19:08.needed, but it does not say when and are British grand rates. Thhs

:19:09. > :19:12.appears wrong to embark on ` strategy without having grotnd

:19:13. > :19:15.troops or a local unit expl`nation as to who or how many. What

:19:16. > :19:19.assessment has he made of the number of ground troops that are ndeded? It

:19:20. > :19:28.gets more complicated. The government says there is no military

:19:29. > :19:35.solution. Is this true? Is this realistic In

:19:36. > :19:38.my mind, there must be some solution but I am clear that the UN lust

:19:39. > :19:43.agree to put in a huge coalhtion force into Serbia in the hundreds of

:19:44. > :19:48.thousands to stop the Civil War and at the same time put in place a

:19:49. > :19:51.political strategy that is achievable to run alongside it,

:19:52. > :19:52.preferably I would like to see as many Muslim countries send soldiers

:19:53. > :19:59.as possible, a former deal with as possible, a former deal with

:20:00. > :20:04.Russia and Iran is needed. The government has not committed to a

:20:05. > :20:08.wider strategy. It said we would get to the situation which will

:20:09. > :20:12.gradually upped our involvelent in a piecemeal way and find oursdlves in

:20:13. > :20:15.a more conflict situation than even in Iraq. Those in the government to

:20:16. > :20:22.argue that we are somehow ldss secure by not doing this, I

:20:23. > :20:24.disagree, I would support action if I felt it was feasible and

:20:25. > :20:26.deliverable. At the same tile, the government cut our Armed Forces and

:20:27. > :20:33.police forces which is important for security. I believe Daesh nded

:20:34. > :20:37.confronting, I believe military they must be defeated, it is essdntial to

:20:38. > :20:40.our security and that of thd Middle East, the Prime Minister should come

:20:41. > :20:44.forward with a strategy that has a reasonable chance of success, he has

:20:45. > :20:49.not done so, he must come b`ck with a better plan.

:20:50. > :20:55.Thank you, Mr Speaker. I wotld like to begin and this could givd the

:20:56. > :20:59.kiss of death to them, by congratulating the right honourable

:21:00. > :21:05.member is for Derby South and Kingston-upon-Hull and Norm`nton for

:21:06. > :21:12.three formidable speeches. H think it always takes incredible courage

:21:13. > :21:18.to stand against your own p`rty and I do not think you should bd

:21:19. > :21:23.denigrated for doing so. Secondly, I will be supporting the government's

:21:24. > :21:26.motion and I fully understand the caveats that colleagues havd put

:21:27. > :21:37.forward of one kind or another. The most important immediate issue is

:21:38. > :21:42.the strikes against Daesh in Syria, which are intelligence and security

:21:43. > :21:51.agencies, they have identifhed, and wish to carry out, who are offering

:21:52. > :21:55.a present threat, now, to us, our constituencies and to our allies in

:21:56. > :22:05.Europe. This is a present threat. They may not get it entirelx right

:22:06. > :22:20.and I can see my right honotrable friend and his constituency is?

:22:21. > :22:25.I have got so many! New Fordst. It would be wrong to name... If you

:22:26. > :22:30.think that there is no direct threat as far as intelligence is concerned.

:22:31. > :22:35.I think for those colleagues who have received briefings of one kind

:22:36. > :22:38.or another, they understand that. The intelligence and security

:22:39. > :22:46.services cannot guarantee to prevent every threat. I think that we should

:22:47. > :22:51.give our support to this motion primarily because we wish to extend

:22:52. > :22:55.our air campaign into Syria to help to prevent the threats to this

:22:56. > :23:00.country. Secondly, I very mtch minded of the fact that there is an

:23:01. > :23:03.elephant in the room and th`t is the Iraq War and the fact that we can to

:23:04. > :23:09.keep looking back to previots wars to draw of lessons of one khnd or

:23:10. > :23:13.another. I think the Prime Linister is absolutely correct to thhnk that

:23:14. > :23:18.we have to look at the presdnt situation and the future. Whll be

:23:19. > :23:21.hopefully have learned lessons both political and military from that

:23:22. > :23:29.war. But, you know, we could end up by having our current operations,

:23:30. > :23:35.our current politics, deterlined by past experiences. Our predecessors

:23:36. > :23:40.sat in this Commons and the 193 s determined never to have a Great War

:23:41. > :23:46.again. The Labour Party was divided, there were pacifists and those who

:23:47. > :23:49.wanted collective security. My own party supported appeasement, which

:23:50. > :23:53.the overwhelming majority of the British public did not, bec`use they

:23:54. > :23:57.genuinely... These are not dvil men and women, they wanted to prevent

:23:58. > :24:02.another war. The field becatse they were giving with people in other

:24:03. > :24:06.countries who were not prep`red to negotiate. The second lessons

:24:07. > :24:14.learned from that was in 1946. Anthony Eden, he believed that there

:24:15. > :24:19.was another Museveni. He was repaired to take action, thd wrong

:24:20. > :24:25.action at the time. -- field. I think we should put it to one side.

:24:26. > :24:29.-- Mussolini. We must look `t the situation of today. My final point

:24:30. > :24:34.that I would make to this, there has been a great debate about the 7 ,000

:24:35. > :24:38.moderates or the moderate pdople who might or might not provide ground

:24:39. > :24:42.forces, and I am sure the ldader of the SNP as we speak is getthng

:24:43. > :24:47.YouGov to go out and get thdm to answer whether they consider

:24:48. > :24:52.themselves moderate or moderates. I am sorry, I am out of time. I must

:24:53. > :24:58.tell you that we know that the Second World War, that when

:24:59. > :25:02.Churchill and Roosevelt werd looking at resistance in Europe, it was

:25:03. > :25:08.dreadfully difficult to try and find out whether people were Comlunist,

:25:09. > :25:13.non-Communist or something dlse The criteria at the end of the day was

:25:14. > :25:16.where the fighting the Nazis? There is not an easy solution to this but

:25:17. > :25:21.I think that the Prime Minister has laid out as far as he can a set of

:25:22. > :25:23.proposals and I would urge the House to vote with the Prime Minister on

:25:24. > :25:34.this occasion. I want to thank the Prime Mhnister

:25:35. > :25:39.for the National Security briefings we have had and discussions with him

:25:40. > :25:43.and others in recent weeks. These are very serious matters th`t we are

:25:44. > :25:47.considering. Is right that the debate should take place in a

:25:48. > :25:51.respectful way. Both in herd and outside this chamber as well. What

:25:52. > :25:57.has been proposed is the extension of action that is already h`ppening

:25:58. > :26:02.in Iraq, and our test on thdse benches has been one of realism Our

:26:03. > :26:09.experience in Northern Irel`nd has been teaching is that no other force

:26:10. > :26:11.can be brought to bear, terrorism must be fought, and with all of the

:26:12. > :26:18.means, realistically at our disposal. We have not sought this

:26:19. > :26:24.conflict. Terrorists have inflicted upon us. But we must now respond. We

:26:25. > :26:29.know, on these benches, onlx to well the consequences of terrorism being

:26:30. > :26:33.appeased and indulged. Terrorism must be faced up to. It is hn a

:26:34. > :26:39.choice between political inhtiatives and facing terrorism. Both go

:26:40. > :26:44.hand-in-hand. And that is why it is important that this motion talks

:26:45. > :26:47.about action now. So, alloc`tes to the Prime Minister has been clear

:26:48. > :26:50.and consistent throughout. Four things were necessary for otr

:26:51. > :26:55.support. First we needed to know that the terrorists of Daesh-Isil

:26:56. > :27:00.would be the target, and th`t has been made explicit in the motion. I

:27:01. > :27:04.welcome that clear objectivd being written into the terms of the

:27:05. > :27:07.motion. We know the convoluted complexity of the Syrian Civil war.

:27:08. > :27:13.Today we are not being asked to take sides in that war, we're behng asked

:27:14. > :27:16.to take the side of civilisdd people everywhere, the side of our own

:27:17. > :27:22.citizens. We're being asked to strike at the terrorists who have

:27:23. > :27:27.decided to wage war on us. Second, we also had to be sure that these

:27:28. > :27:30.people represent a clear and present danger to the United Kingdol, to our

:27:31. > :27:36.own citizens and is. There can be no one in any doubt whatsoever about

:27:37. > :27:41.that fact. Our citizens are under attack and threat of attack both

:27:42. > :27:45.here and abroad. To those who say that this action will merelx serve

:27:46. > :27:50.to increase the threat or bring violence, the reality is, as we have

:27:51. > :27:57.heard over and over again, that we are already at the top, of the

:27:58. > :28:03.terrorist target list. The Russian airliner blown up over Egypt could

:28:04. > :28:06.just have -- just as easily have been a plane carrying British

:28:07. > :28:09.holiday-makers. And the fantastic work done by our security sdrvices

:28:10. > :28:15.in thwarting attack after attack illustrates the level of threat that

:28:16. > :28:18.exists against us. Thirdly, we needed to be convinced that British

:28:19. > :28:22.action would make a real, practical difference. The Prime Minister is

:28:23. > :28:27.right to say that this will not in itself resolve the terrorist threat,

:28:28. > :28:29.but if it helps to reduce, or degrade the threat to British

:28:30. > :28:37.citizen is, as I believe it will, then it would be wrong, uttdrly

:28:38. > :28:39.wrong, not to Act. We require a diplomatic, political and strategic

:28:40. > :28:44.framework to be in place to address the underlying problems and to work

:28:45. > :28:50.toward settlement of the Syrian Civil War. These factors make it

:28:51. > :28:54.very different from the votd in 2013. Can I commend the govdrnment

:28:55. > :28:59.on the humanitarian support that the UK Government gets, day in, day out,

:29:00. > :29:03.to those fleeing conflict in Syria? It should not be forgotten `nd it's

:29:04. > :29:08.this debate that you get is a second highest burden of such aid hn the

:29:09. > :29:10.world, and British aid workdrs backed up by massive British

:29:11. > :29:16.resources, in collaboration with international partners, are giving

:29:17. > :29:20.enormous help to civilians `nd refugees in Jordan, Turkey `nd

:29:21. > :29:25.Lebanon, and that, of coursd, should continue. I am happy to givd way. I

:29:26. > :29:29.am grateful to the honourable member for giving way. This is abott one

:29:30. > :29:35.aspect of strategy, not just a purely military strategy. It is part

:29:36. > :29:39.of an overall package. Military intervention on its own will not

:29:40. > :29:43.solve it. It has got to be part of an overall package. To say that we

:29:44. > :29:48.should wait until there is ` political and diplomatic outcome is

:29:49. > :29:51.like saying that we should have waited 30 years for the Belfast

:29:52. > :29:55.agreement or the St Andrews agreement to bring about a

:29:56. > :29:58.settlement in Northern Irel`nd. We need to protect our own cithzens

:29:59. > :30:02.now, when there is a real and present danger to them, and not to

:30:03. > :30:09.do so would be a dereliction of duty. Mr Speaker, Paris, like the

:30:10. > :30:15.downing of the Russian airlhne, were assaults upon civilised valtes that

:30:16. > :30:18.must be faced up to. If we can realistically do something to

:30:19. > :30:22.destroy or degrade this evil, to prevent it spreading still further,

:30:23. > :30:27.then you must Act. It is a heavy burden of responsibility. So it is a

:30:28. > :30:30.comma isn't a choice between military intervention on thd one

:30:31. > :30:35.hand and political and diplomatic initiatives in the other, both go

:30:36. > :30:40.hand-in-hand, as I have said. There's now a realistic chance

:30:41. > :30:43.overwhelming pressure can bd brought to bear on Isil-Daesh in Syria.

:30:44. > :30:50.Therefore, we on these benches will be voting for the motion tonight.

:30:51. > :30:53.Now the British force is to be employed if the House vote that way

:30:54. > :30:57.in the Commons, it is the Jtdy of every credible political figure to

:30:58. > :31:05.offer their full support to our Armed Forces -- duty. We wish them

:31:06. > :31:08.success as they do the hard and necessary work and we pray for a

:31:09. > :31:15.safe and swift return for all of them. Mr Speaker, there is `

:31:16. > :31:21.dangerous and deadly cult operating within this country and within

:31:22. > :31:24.Europe and on the doorstep of Europe. Today, we are going to

:31:25. > :31:29.decide whether we got ours responsibilities and do nothing all

:31:30. > :31:31.we extend our military oper`tions and widen our attack on the

:31:32. > :31:36.territories that they have taken over. To widen our air strikes to

:31:37. > :31:42.include Daesh areas held in Syria is in fact only a small extenshon of

:31:43. > :31:47.our current literary activity. I can honestly say that I don't think this

:31:48. > :31:52.House has ever seen a Prime Minister set out so clearly the detahled

:31:53. > :31:57.options before us today, and his reasons for asking us to support the

:31:58. > :32:02.motion. The vote for this motion, in my view, responds positivelx to the

:32:03. > :32:07.requests from close allies, France and the US gay, adds value to the

:32:08. > :32:11.current military operations by adding precision bombing capability

:32:12. > :32:14.and reconnaissance needed to trade the capabilities of Daesh and to

:32:15. > :32:19.remove its leadership, and therefore, I believe, reducd the

:32:20. > :32:24.direct threat to our citizens. And the threat is real and presdnt an

:32:25. > :32:26.extreme. From the heading ahd workers to slaughtering

:32:27. > :32:31.holiday-makers on a Tunisian beach, not to mention the seven fohled

:32:32. > :32:38.terrorist attacks that our brave men and women of our intelligence

:32:39. > :32:41.services have saved us from. Anyone seeing a positive vote tonight will

:32:42. > :32:47.increase the danger here in the UK needs to wake up and realisd that

:32:48. > :32:52.the threat is already here `nd controlled by Daesh leaders, mostly

:32:53. > :32:58.in Syria. I believe that, if we add to the forces trying to elilinate

:32:59. > :33:03.that Daesh leadership, we whll be increasing the odds of removing the

:33:04. > :33:08.people that orchestrate violence and terrorism and wholesale murder. I

:33:09. > :33:17.could not support the government today if I thought that air strikes

:33:18. > :33:22.were the strategy in Syria `nd on Daesh in its entirety, but with the

:33:23. > :33:26.Vienna process and a reason`ble estimation of ground forces that

:33:27. > :33:31.should be available to Act tp more efficient aerial activity, H believe

:33:32. > :33:35.that focused diplomacy and lilitary action will cover meant each other

:33:36. > :33:39.in moving forward to what wd all want to see happen, and negotiated

:33:40. > :33:44.and peaceful settlement in Syria. Whilst I admit that air strhkes will

:33:45. > :33:48.likely not be likely to elilinate the threat of Daesh, it is hmportant

:33:49. > :33:55.to recognise the role it specifically plays at this dxact

:33:56. > :34:03.time. Now, like many members in this House, I have had represent`tions

:34:04. > :34:07.from people... About the attack in Paris, where we saw the wholesale

:34:08. > :34:10.slaughter of many young people, but it has resonated even more with the

:34:11. > :34:16.general public that Daesh is a dangerous force, and must bd

:34:17. > :34:20.defeated at its roots. As it stands, I think it is the best course of

:34:21. > :34:23.action for Britain to incre`se its commitment to this complex,

:34:24. > :34:29.difficult and continuing conflict. And thereby increase those odds in

:34:30. > :34:34.improving the safety of our hundred and British people, wherever they

:34:35. > :34:38.are in the world. The Prime Minister also knows that we need to be

:34:39. > :34:43.constantly revising the plan for post-conflict Syria and the whole

:34:44. > :34:48.region. I think if we want to see peace in our time, then I bdlieve we

:34:49. > :34:53.will need to address this. @nd so, tonight, I will be putting our hands

:34:54. > :35:02.into the safety and securitx of our armed services and I will bd

:35:03. > :35:10.supporting the motion. Thank you, Mr Speaker. As we mentioned already,

:35:11. > :35:13.the spectre of the Iraq war in 003 hangs over this House, hangs over

:35:14. > :35:20.the whole debate we're having today in this country. And in 2003, the

:35:21. > :35:25.late and very great Charles Kennedy led the opposition to the Iraq war

:35:26. > :35:28.and did so proudly. That was a counter-productive and illegal war,

:35:29. > :35:34.and Daesh is a consequence of that foolish decision taken then. Charles

:35:35. > :35:39.Kennedy was also right in c`lling, in the 1990s, for interventhon in

:35:40. > :35:43.Bosnia -- Bosnia, the liter`ry intervention to end genocidd there.

:35:44. > :35:48.I am proud of Charles on both counts. My instincts and those of

:35:49. > :35:54.other people are always the anti-war and anti-conflict. The autolatic

:35:55. > :35:58.instinct is bound to be in lany cases that we should do in `nd react

:35:59. > :36:02.straightaway. Others will s`y, under no terms, not in my name, should

:36:03. > :36:06.there ever be intervention. It is right to look at a question like

:36:07. > :36:09.this through the prism of what is humanitarian, internationalhst and

:36:10. > :36:14.liberal, what is right, and what will be effective. I set out by

:36:15. > :36:18.principles that I put the Prime Minister and in the time I have

:36:19. > :36:23.available, I would go into `ll of them, but you can go on the website

:36:24. > :36:26.and look at them. My sense hs that clearly and on balance any

:36:27. > :36:34.reasonable person would judge them to have been broadly met. I will

:36:35. > :36:37.give way. Would the honourable member confirmed that unlikd the

:36:38. > :36:42.Leader of the Opposition, hd and his party supported air strikes against

:36:43. > :36:46.Daesh in Iraq, and that tod`y's vote is about extending those air strikes

:36:47. > :36:50.across-the-board that Daesh themselves do not recognise, into

:36:51. > :36:58.Syria, to degrade Daesh as far as possible? To confirm that. The rally

:36:59. > :37:01.-- the reality is today for me and many other people, it has bden one 1

:37:02. > :37:07.of the toughest decisions that we have had to take in our timd in this

:37:08. > :37:13.place. I will say that the five broad principles that we set out

:37:14. > :37:16.have been broadly, broadly let, but I will not give uncondition`l

:37:17. > :37:21.support to the government as I vote with them as I intend to do tonight,

:37:22. > :37:26.because there are huge questions on the financing of Daesh from states

:37:27. > :37:30.such as Turkey and the tradd that is going on there, I huge questions

:37:31. > :37:37.about protection of civilians. Yes, a ceasefire is the ultimate civilian

:37:38. > :37:39.protection, but the possibility of safe zones established withhn Syria

:37:40. > :37:43.is something we absolutely lust continue to press for all stop I

:37:44. > :37:48.continue to be very concerndd about the lack of political involvement

:37:49. > :37:53.and stated involvement, where the king of Jordan overnight, bx close

:37:54. > :38:04.by regional states such as Saudi Arabia and Carter and United Arab

:38:05. > :38:07.Emirates. I am continually `s part of the EU overall plan about taking

:38:08. > :38:11.refugees, and I welcome what had been said by the Prime Minister

:38:12. > :38:16.earlier. I want to see a lot more than just looking into taking 3 00

:38:17. > :38:21.orphaned children from refugee camps. I want them here in Britain.

:38:22. > :38:26.I will give way. I thank thd Liberal Democrat leader for giving way. Why,

:38:27. > :38:30.given that he has pressed for the government to take more reftgees is

:38:31. > :38:37.he content the bomb that cotntry? This is ridiculous. I think it is

:38:38. > :38:40.important. I will come to that in a moment. The reality is simply this.

:38:41. > :38:45.This is a very tough call, incredibly tough course of the final

:38:46. > :38:48.point I want to depress the Prime Minister on is about the funding of

:38:49. > :38:53.Daesh from within UK sources. I am pleased to hear the statement made

:38:54. > :38:57.early on that there will be a full public open inquiry which mtst cut

:38:58. > :39:03.off that which fuels this evil, evil death cult. It is the toughdst call

:39:04. > :39:07.I have ever had to make, maxbe ever and certainly in this House. What

:39:08. > :39:14.pushes me in the direction of voting for action is, above all thhngs the

:39:15. > :39:19.United Nations resolution to 24 , which calls for us to eradicate the

:39:20. > :39:25.safe haven that Isis has th`t Daesh has, within Syria, that doesn't just

:39:26. > :39:29.omit this country but urges this country and all members that are

:39:30. > :39:35.capable of doing so, to takd all necessary action to get rid of

:39:36. > :39:38.Daesh. If it had just been `sked to bomb Syria, I would be voting no. I

:39:39. > :39:43.would be out there are demonstrating in between speeches. I would be

:39:44. > :39:47.signing up to the emails and the stop the War coalition. This is not

:39:48. > :39:50.the case of just bombing, this is standing with the UN and thd

:39:51. > :39:53.international community to do what is right by people who are the most

:39:54. > :39:59.beleaguered of all. I was proud to tears when I watched at Wembley as

:40:00. > :40:02.English fans sang the French national anthem, probably vdry

:40:03. > :40:06.badly, but doing it with gusto, standing shoulder to shoulddr with

:40:07. > :40:10.our closest friends and allhes. How can we then not do that tod`y when

:40:11. > :40:15.asked to do something when we are bitterly putting our money where our

:40:16. > :40:17.mouths are's if you want to know what has pushed me into the position

:40:18. > :40:22.where I feel we have come on balance, to back military action

:40:23. > :40:26.against Daesh, it is my personal experiences in the refugee camps

:40:27. > :40:30.this summer. I cannot pretend not to have been utterly personallx moved

:40:31. > :40:35.and affected by what I met. I could give you anecdotes that would break

:40:36. > :40:40.your heart. One in particul`r, a 7 -year-old lad being lifted from a

:40:41. > :40:47.dinghy on the beach at Lesbos, and he said to his daddy, are Isil

:40:48. > :40:50.here? I cannot stand in this House and castigate the Prime Minhster for

:40:51. > :40:54.not taking enough refugees `nd for Britain not standing tall as it

:40:55. > :40:58.should do in the world and opening its arms to that desperate, like we

:40:59. > :41:03.have done so many decades throughout our history. If we do not also do

:41:04. > :41:10.everything in our power to dradicate that which is the source of the

:41:11. > :41:13.people fleeing from that Tara. We are absolutely under the spdctre of

:41:14. > :41:17.a shocking and illegal, counter-productive war in Iraq, and

:41:18. > :41:22.that is a lesson from history that we must learn from. The danger is,

:41:23. > :41:25.today, that for too many people we will be learning the wrong lessons

:41:26. > :41:30.stand with those refugees, not to stand with those refugees, not to

:41:31. > :41:35.stand as part of the intern`tional community of nations. This hs a very

:41:36. > :41:38.to take military action to degrade to take military action to degrade

:41:39. > :41:52.and defeat this evil death cult the comments of the leader of the

:41:53. > :41:58.Lib Dems. Until we remove D`esh we are all at risk, with or without

:41:59. > :42:04.bombing in Iraq, with or without a bombing in Syria. I was in France

:42:05. > :42:09.and saw the French population, people going about their dahly

:42:10. > :42:12.business. We cannot negotiate with such people. People who wanted a

:42:13. > :42:18.bomb into a crowded football stadium. It is a priority to remove

:42:19. > :42:24.Daesh. It is clearly nonsense that if we all voted awkward numbers 41

:42:25. > :42:29.year ago to bomb in Iraq th`t our aeroplanes stop at an arbitrary

:42:30. > :42:35.boundary in the sand. With we are invited by our civil heart `llies,

:42:36. > :42:40.the French, to bring specialist technology, it is terrible that we

:42:41. > :42:45.do not offer that technologx and involved ourselves. I have speak --

:42:46. > :42:49.I have spoken to experience the Allied generals over the last few

:42:50. > :42:53.days. There is no doubt that having the UK playing a full part hn a

:42:54. > :42:59.coalition of bringing intelligence, planning and experience, it does

:43:00. > :43:04.have an intangible moral and philosophical boost to the campaign.

:43:05. > :43:08.So I am quite clear that thhs is about the safety of our civhlians

:43:09. > :43:13.and we are better off if we engage in this activity. But, Mr Speaker, I

:43:14. > :43:17.would be like to touch on that artificial boundary. Mike on the

:43:18. > :43:22.brick -- my honourable friend called these need neighbouring states.

:43:23. > :43:29.These were created in the 1820s They were created out of balance of

:43:30. > :43:41.the Ottoman Empire. If you look at Iraq, there was Basra, Shia, there

:43:42. > :43:45.is a Baghdad, and another area for the representation of Kurdistan

:43:46. > :43:53.They were promised a countrx but did not get one. We are living with the

:43:54. > :43:57.consequences of what was decided. I remember at Cambridge the l`te

:43:58. > :44:01.Professor Jack Gallagher, when France and Britain came unddr these

:44:02. > :44:06.enemies, they increased thehr sphere of influence. It was assumed that

:44:07. > :44:11.there would be British and French influence, pass it is necessary

:44:12. > :44:16.very active in the game -- case of the bombing campaign in Irap in the

:44:17. > :44:23.1920s. This system was in 1858 and it worked, when the King was killed,

:44:24. > :44:26.and it sort of worked against Saddam Hussein and others. It has now

:44:27. > :44:30.broken down and it could have worked, although the critichsm of

:44:31. > :44:34.the Iraq War, it was a terrhble decision by the Obama regimd to

:44:35. > :44:38.withdraw the US garrison, there is one still in west Germany, Japan,

:44:39. > :44:41.South Korea and the Philipphnes and they should have been there for the

:44:42. > :44:47.long term. I will give way. The reason why the

:44:48. > :44:53.Americans withdrew was becatse the Iraqis would not give a agrdement

:44:54. > :45:01.under which US forces would not be liable to Iraqi law, that is why

:45:02. > :45:06.they were forced to withdraw. The other regime that was corrupted

:45:07. > :45:10.has gone. What we must look at this can be made these entities work You

:45:11. > :45:14.talk to anyone who is an expert it is not an option to destroy these

:45:15. > :45:17.boundaries, what I would put to the front bench and there is a line in

:45:18. > :45:22.the motion which gives grounds for this, is to follow what the current

:45:23. > :45:25.Prime Minister is doing in Hran he is talking about functioning

:45:26. > :45:31.federalism. What we must do is to give these ethnic groups security

:45:32. > :45:35.within these old post World War Two boundaries and if you look `t how

:45:36. > :45:39.the Ottomans did it, they h`d left the locals to run their own show and

:45:40. > :45:45.there is a clear breakdown hn Iraq and it is happening with thd Kurds,

:45:46. > :45:50.you could give them significant but Tommy to these entities. We will not

:45:51. > :45:53.get support for locals to rdmove Daesh considering the terrible

:45:54. > :45:57.conditions the other thing tnder if they do not feel they will dmerge at

:45:58. > :46:02.the end of this very diffictlt process with an entity to which the

:46:03. > :46:06.arboreal and safe. You will not get Sunnis in Iraq to stick thehr heads

:46:07. > :46:11.above the parapet and end up with another corrupt Shia regime. And you

:46:12. > :46:20.will not get it the other w`y round. I would appeal... I will give way.

:46:21. > :46:25.Very grateful. I do agree whth you entirely on the federation point,

:46:26. > :46:29.trying to put a construct of a nation state bounty on what Arsenal

:46:30. > :46:31.tribal areas is almost impossible. If it worked so well in Yugoslavia

:46:32. > :46:34.as it clearly has done, following as it clearly has done, following

:46:35. > :46:43.that conflict, it is somethhng that we should look at.

:46:44. > :46:47.My proposal is that we do not do other bad things, we have to

:46:48. > :46:51.negotiate with locals and intending very clearly that at the end of the

:46:52. > :46:57.process, having remove Daesh by military means, we then havd an

:46:58. > :47:01.entity which allows local ethnic and religious groups to have loxalty to

:47:02. > :47:04.the area that they live. If we do not do that all of the questions