Part Two

:00:00. > :00:00.trainees in this matter rather than the French. I think that an

:00:00. > :00:18.extraordinary notion becausd I have two say... As a member of that same

:00:19. > :00:23.committee, it can maintain hnfluence without military action that will

:00:24. > :00:30.have a marginal effect. The question that should be asked is a dhfferent

:00:31. > :00:34.one. Does our involvement dhminish our diplomatic influence? What he

:00:35. > :00:39.fills to take into account hs that by withdrawing as he would clearly

:00:40. > :00:46.advocate from the military process entirely, we diminish our chance to

:00:47. > :00:49.influence our allies who sh`re our values and that is why I find it

:00:50. > :00:54.China. Finally, there is thd list China. Finally, there is thd list

:00:55. > :01:01.you I think is of great importance and touched on by the noble member

:01:02. > :01:05.for Newport West of Islamophobia and structures of our own society. He

:01:06. > :01:10.has my sympathy and knows mx interest in this matter over many

:01:11. > :01:12.years will stop I have absolutely no doubt that Islamophobia is on the

:01:13. > :01:17.rise in this country and th`t indeed our civil society threatens to be

:01:18. > :01:21.undermined by a backwash th`t comes out of the Middle East. It hs a very

:01:22. > :01:24.real challenge and one that everybody in this House ought to be

:01:25. > :01:33.addressing will stop my tre`tises and I think I will in that regard --

:01:34. > :01:38.are well known. I don't think what we're doing in Syria undermhnes

:01:39. > :01:48.that. On the contrary, a saxs are powerless in the face of thd model

:01:49. > :02:05.is cruelty of Daesh is a fudl for Islamophobia. Since the election in

:02:06. > :02:09.May, all the MPs have faced a range of new experiences and challenges.

:02:10. > :02:16.Today's vote will mark one of the most significant challenges we have

:02:17. > :02:20.taken in our careers and we do not take lightly. I'd respect the

:02:21. > :02:26.minister's case that expressed disappointment at the words he chose

:02:27. > :02:32.to use last night to describe those who with equal sincerity disagree

:02:33. > :02:38.with his view. Those of us who find ourselves opposing the Government

:02:39. > :02:41.motion have thought long and hard about her decision and its

:02:42. > :02:44.consequences for so many. Wd have listened to our constituents and

:02:45. > :02:50.organisations the length and breadth of the country who have contacted us

:02:51. > :02:54.to share their views. We have acknowledged the brave men `nd women

:02:55. > :02:58.of our Armed Forces who put their lives on the line to protect us

:02:59. > :03:05.every single day. Mr Speaker, we have also thought as well about our

:03:06. > :03:08.own security of the people of Syria. Well much of today's

:03:09. > :03:13.discussion has been on the Government's motion and milhtary

:03:14. > :03:18.action, there is another important perspective on this catastrophic

:03:19. > :03:23.situation. That of the people of Syria and those in the Middle East

:03:24. > :03:26.who have been so tragically affected by this conflict and whether adding

:03:27. > :03:36.to the multiple countries already bombing Syria will help thel or

:03:37. > :03:40.indeed our security at all. Which she agree with me that in all of

:03:41. > :03:43.these discussions and considerations, we must think about

:03:44. > :03:48.the human cost and and in p`rticular those vulnerable groups likd the gay

:03:49. > :03:57.and lesbian community who are already being persecuted? They are

:03:58. > :04:04.already being persecuted and further bombing will mimic that sittation

:04:05. > :04:08.worse. I thank my honourabld friend for her intervention and wotld

:04:09. > :04:14.implore members of this House to give respect to them. I agrde with

:04:15. > :04:19.it in its entirety. More th`n half the Syrian population are now living

:04:20. > :04:23.in poverty and civilian castalties are on the increase. Recent Russian

:04:24. > :04:29.air strikes have killed 485 civilians including 117 children and

:04:30. > :04:33.47 women. The fact relating to this vicious conflict are alarming and it

:04:34. > :04:40.is difficult to imagine the human stories which lie behind thdm. That

:04:41. > :04:44.is why I visited refugee calps to see for myself the scale of the

:04:45. > :04:46.Germanic TV in disaster there and to hear first-hand the accounts of

:04:47. > :04:57.refugees who have fled Syri`. I listened how families told me how

:04:58. > :05:03.they have been uprooted by violence, and had nothing more to rettrn home

:05:04. > :05:07.to. I heard about how their villages had been reduced to rubble by air

:05:08. > :05:12.strikes ordered by President Assad. I spoke to somebody whose house was

:05:13. > :05:16.flattened by forces in an Assad attack, which killed her mother

:05:17. > :05:20.brother and husband. I met with basil from Damascus, he spent two

:05:21. > :05:26.years in prison being tortured by Assad security forces, and hs now

:05:27. > :05:28.unable to walk. Mohammed was a pilot in the air force and fled the

:05:29. > :05:31.country with his family when he was asked to take part in bombing raids

:05:32. > :05:38.on civilian targets within his own country. A writer said to md, we are

:05:39. > :05:46.not numbers, we are not anilals we want to be human beings, not numbers

:05:47. > :05:52.on a page. I have no dreams, I just want to go home, but Daesh `re

:05:53. > :05:55.occupying my home now. What these individuals and families were united

:05:56. > :05:59.in was their desire to return home one day to rebuild their lives. They

:06:00. > :06:05.are human beings with a story and that story should be heard. A story

:06:06. > :06:09.which confirms to us all thd complex nature of what is happening in the

:06:10. > :06:13.region and the number of protagonists already involvdd,

:06:14. > :06:20.crucially, with different agendas and different targets. Many issues

:06:21. > :06:25.require to be addressed to lake Syria return to peace. The proposals

:06:26. > :06:31.ahead of us do not do this. We need a plan to defeat the terrorhst cult

:06:32. > :06:33.Daesh and replace Assad. We also need a plan to rebuild Syri` and

:06:34. > :06:38.have a better future for thd people I have mentioned on so many more. To

:06:39. > :06:43.join the already ongoing bolbing campaign in the skies over Syria

:06:44. > :06:45.will only compound human suffering. Military intervention withott

:06:46. > :06:51.credible peace building plans will only make the situation worse. Just

:06:52. > :06:57.as it did in Libya, Iraq and Afghanistan. A comprehensivd

:06:58. > :07:02.strategy against Daesh is rdquired. The UK could take the lead hn a more

:07:03. > :07:10.coordinated effort to help squeeze Daesh financial is, -- finances and

:07:11. > :07:16.secure a long-term peace pl`n. This is not in today's motion, Mr

:07:17. > :07:22.Speaker. While I will be supporting the amendment, I will be voting

:07:23. > :07:27.against the Government motion. Since I was 18, I spent a large portion of

:07:28. > :07:31.my life as a soldier and television reporter, and an MP, in somd of the

:07:32. > :07:35.more unhappy places in the world. The thing that has really struck me

:07:36. > :07:40.is the blindingly obvious, that war and conflict are the results of

:07:41. > :07:44.broken politics. Over the l`st 5 years or so, our country has made

:07:45. > :07:48.some disastrous decisions which have left tens of millions of people in

:07:49. > :07:54.the Middle East and North Africa in a very difficult position. @s one

:07:55. > :07:59.Middle Eastern ambassador ptt it recently to me, last week, on the

:08:00. > :08:04.Foreign Affairs Committee trip to Iraq in Turkey, you have to diagnose

:08:05. > :08:10.a sickness properly in order to treat its root causes. Pallhative

:08:11. > :08:21.therapy is not a cure. So, what have we got in Syria and Iraq? Wd have

:08:22. > :08:24.got... We think of Isis being Jihadi John, but the reality of Ishs is

:08:25. > :08:32.that it is mostly the Sunni populations of those areas. Our

:08:33. > :08:38.challenge, if we ever want to have a key to this problem, is to separate

:08:39. > :08:45.the disenfranchised Sunnis from what you might call call Isis. Wd got to

:08:46. > :08:49.give the Sunnis of the Middle East a different choice. At the molent they

:08:50. > :08:55.have a choice between Isis `nd security from Shia militia, or Shia

:08:56. > :09:02.militias. Air strikes play their part, of course they do. To me, they

:09:03. > :09:07.are very much lower down on the to-do list. We got to have ` proper

:09:08. > :09:13.political and security strategy so we can separate the populathons from

:09:14. > :09:17.Isis. They are ultimately otr ground troops against Isis. Until we

:09:18. > :09:24.realise that, we are stuffed. A very senior coalition commander hn Iraq

:09:25. > :09:30.said the following last week. We have a military campaign, btt we

:09:31. > :09:35.don't have a political one. Russia, Iran, Saudi, Turkey, the US, they

:09:36. > :09:42.are all doing their own thing. I don't have time to go through it

:09:43. > :09:47.now. So, I believe that, actually, the politicians in this rool, this

:09:48. > :09:50.afternoon, and we have given expert opinions on military things. But the

:09:51. > :09:56.politicians have been a bit short on talking about the politics. It is

:09:57. > :10:02.politics only... Not only, politics mainly, that will fix this. I think

:10:03. > :10:05.that the biggest thing that the the United Kingdom can do right now is

:10:06. > :10:11.to use the influence we think we do not have too actually talk to people

:10:12. > :10:15.very seriously, so there is a proper, long-term strategy that

:10:16. > :10:22.results in a cure. Bombing can only ever be palliative. I'm dond.

:10:23. > :10:33.Yes, well, we are extremely grateful to the honourable gentleman. Most

:10:34. > :10:38.helpful. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I support the amendments and will be

:10:39. > :10:40.voting that way tonight, as will my colleagues in Plaid Cymru. Luch

:10:41. > :10:46.earlier this afternoon, the honourable member who is no longer

:10:47. > :10:53.in his place referred to thdse benches with a wave of majesty and

:10:54. > :10:56.referred to us as the pacifhsts Plaid Cymru is not a pacifist

:10:57. > :11:02.party, confirmed only yesterday by our leader in the National

:11:03. > :11:06.Assembly. We opposed military action in Iraq, we supported it in Libya,

:11:07. > :11:10.though now I have my doubts. I have many concerns about the

:11:11. > :11:15.Government's proposals. I whll not list them all. I will say that the

:11:16. > :11:19.Prime Minister has said that there are thousands of moderate Sxrian

:11:20. > :11:24.fighters that will provide the forces on the ground, and hd will

:11:25. > :11:30.rightly not commit himself. That is absent from the motion todax. My

:11:31. > :11:33.view is that the proponents of bombing have become increashngly coy

:11:34. > :11:41.on this matter, no surprise there. We have been presented many times

:11:42. > :11:47.with a false dichotomy. Bomb or do nothing. We can bomb, all wd can do

:11:48. > :11:51.something, things which are, in my view, reasonable, proportionate and

:11:52. > :11:57.effective. For example, further support for the Peshmerga force

:11:58. > :12:01.which has proved itself, ag`inst the odds, to be so effective ag`inst

:12:02. > :12:05.Daesh with very few resourcds. Pressure could be put on Turkey to

:12:06. > :12:12.desist from attacking the Ktrds so they can both concentrate on

:12:13. > :12:16.defeating Daesh. What can wd do to secure a future for the Kurds in

:12:17. > :12:22.Southern and Western Kurdistan, and also secure a settlement for the

:12:23. > :12:24.Kurds, points which nobody has made this afternoon, which I think is

:12:25. > :12:30.another small but essential part of the jigsaw. Daesh do not act alone

:12:31. > :12:34.and that is abundantly clear they are killers, not talkers. Btt they

:12:35. > :12:39.have international sponsors providing them with money and

:12:40. > :12:44.material. So, what further pressure can we put on Gulf states, on their

:12:45. > :12:48.citizens, on Turkey, to stop the supply of resources that Dadsh needs

:12:49. > :12:52.to wage their evil war? Syrha is not some distant land of which we know

:12:53. > :12:59.little. Daesh and supporters are eager to wage war on the streets of

:13:00. > :13:02.Western Europe. The supportdrs who perpetrated the foul work in Paris

:13:03. > :13:06.were home-grown, as were those who bombed London. Terrorists are being

:13:07. > :13:11.trained in Syria, but radic`lised through the specious arguments of

:13:12. > :13:15.those who see oppression evdrywhere and who misused distortions of Islam

:13:16. > :13:18.to inspire mayhem and murder. They do this here and they do it on the

:13:19. > :13:24.internet. We could take steps in that respect. There is also the

:13:25. > :13:27.Vienna process, which I will not refer to further, because of the

:13:28. > :13:35.provision of time. It has bden said this afternoon, will bombing make us

:13:36. > :13:43.safer? Some honourable membdrs have said we are proposing keeping our

:13:44. > :13:50.heads down. Now, in terms of further bombings in the West, I think if we

:13:51. > :13:58.do bomb Syria we will be sowing a further 1000, not bombing is a

:13:59. > :14:04.serious security considerathon. It is not just kidding our heads down.

:14:05. > :14:07.Tony Blair, his persuasive best convinced a majority that Britain

:14:08. > :14:14.was in imminent danger of attack and we should wage war in Iraq. As has

:14:15. > :14:18.already been said, 2003 is not 015, but, Mr Speaker, we are still

:14:19. > :14:23.waiting for the Chilcot Report. I am not starry eyed about the prospects

:14:24. > :14:25.for that report. But I do bdlieve that its earlier publication would

:14:26. > :14:38.have been valuable in inforling this debate. That delay is deeplx

:14:39. > :14:42.regrettable. There is a strong pacifist tradition in this country

:14:43. > :14:48.that often requires courage to hold two. We have seen this in conflicts

:14:49. > :14:52.down the years. I have respdct for those that could never support

:14:53. > :14:54.military action in any circumstances, wrong though I

:14:55. > :15:01.believe them sometimes to bd. The rest of us have to reach a settled

:15:02. > :15:05.view about whether this proposal before us tonight is right or

:15:06. > :15:09.wrong. My view is that, on balance, it is right. I come, like m`ny

:15:10. > :15:13.honourable members in this House, from what he might call the

:15:14. > :15:19.post-Iraq generation. My default position is to apply a healthy dose

:15:20. > :15:29.of scepticism to any request for military intervention. We c`n all

:15:30. > :15:33.think of a great many reasons why not going ahead with an extdnsion of

:15:34. > :15:37.this air campaign is the right thing to do. I entirely concede it is not

:15:38. > :15:43.without its risks. But we h`ve to understand the true impact of saying

:15:44. > :15:48.that we will set this out. Hf we say that and accept that the attacks

:15:49. > :15:54.have limited Daesh's abilitx to operate in mass formations, to

:15:55. > :16:00.conduct clear command and control operations and the rest of ht, we

:16:01. > :16:04.are, in the words of the Prhme Minister, subcontracting out our

:16:05. > :16:08.security to our friends. I believe over the last few days we h`ve seen

:16:09. > :16:12.many of the reasons not to proceed for the way. A unanimous UN

:16:13. > :16:15.resolution, a political and diplomatic process involving tea

:16:16. > :16:24.party is under way and a grdater understanding of what an air

:16:25. > :16:27.campaign is and... Night and by honourable friend for giving way. I

:16:28. > :16:34.agree with him wholeheartedly that we need to take action, how ever

:16:35. > :16:37.difficulties. Isil want to destroy everything we believe in with

:16:38. > :16:43.murderous acts, so we do nedd to act and act now. I am grateful for my

:16:44. > :16:49.honourable friend and I agrde with him. One of the main arguments being

:16:50. > :16:55.plucked by many, even the chairman of the select committee on which I

:16:56. > :16:58.sit, that their campaigns are only to be used successfully with little

:16:59. > :17:05.green men in battalions movhng across the ground underneath the top

:17:06. > :17:09.cover provided. In a perfect world, that is how we use air cover. But we

:17:10. > :17:15.don't live in a perfect world. I asked one of my constituents,

:17:16. > :17:19.something someone who knows about this, General Sir Mike Jackson, if

:17:20. > :17:24.you could remember any conflict were air strikes alone made a difference.

:17:25. > :17:32.He said one word, Kosovo. Hd started to repeat other conditions were an

:17:33. > :17:40.air campaign can defeat an dnemy. Now we have moved on to question the

:17:41. > :17:43.existence of these so-called 70 000 combatants. We can all dancd on the

:17:44. > :17:47.head of a pin. We can all s`y this is the reason why we cannot support

:17:48. > :17:52.this tonight, because they light not be the kind of people we like, they

:17:53. > :17:55.might not be the kind of people to whom we would find an effective

:17:56. > :18:00.force on the ground immediately But they are there, and they have not

:18:01. > :18:02.signed up to Assad, they have not signed up to the evil death cult

:18:03. > :18:09.that we are targeting. We h`ve got to use them. After the failtres of

:18:10. > :18:11.the Iraq war, we have at le`st got an independent and analytic`l

:18:12. > :18:15.organisation like the joint intelligence committee that provide

:18:16. > :18:19.details of this. So they ard not being provided by politicians or

:18:20. > :18:24.their advisers. We can quibble about who these people are, but, broadly

:18:25. > :18:28.speaking, since the Prime Mhnister raised that figure of 70,000, it is

:18:29. > :18:37.more or less stacked up. Thdre are militias, some local, but they are

:18:38. > :18:43.still there and we should use them. Standing by our allies at this time,

:18:44. > :18:46.particularly France, matters. Not stepping up now would give the

:18:47. > :18:50.impression we are happy to subcontract our security. It would

:18:51. > :18:56.leave Britain's role in the world in a very different place in the minds

:18:57. > :18:59.of our enemies. Britain's place in the world is not reason enotgh for

:19:00. > :19:06.armed conflict. Reason enough is found by recognising that the threat

:19:07. > :19:09.is right here and right now, to the thousands of my constituents who

:19:10. > :19:15.travel to London every day to work, or to attend a peaceful event, such

:19:16. > :19:17.as was taking place in the Bataclan theatre, or the cafes were lovers

:19:18. > :19:22.and friends met in a way th`t we would want to sit in every town or

:19:23. > :19:26.city in this country. The action proposed is limited, is leg`l and

:19:27. > :19:30.has the authority of the UN. In supporting the motion tonight, we

:19:31. > :19:33.will be taking the fight, whth our friends, to the heart of thd ground

:19:34. > :19:42.controlled by one of the most hideous death cults of modern times.

:19:43. > :19:47.Obviously strongly held views on this issue both for and agahnst and

:19:48. > :19:52.I believe we should respect views that are contrary to our own but I

:19:53. > :19:58.convinced and the merits of the keys to extend military action into Syria

:19:59. > :20:05.-- case. It seems impractic`l to take action on the Iraqi side of the

:20:06. > :20:10.border but not the Syrian shde we are Isil-Daesh are strong and we're

:20:11. > :20:15.their headquarters are situ`ted and where they are organising attacks on

:20:16. > :20:22.the streets of the UK. This is a matter of national security and we

:20:23. > :20:26.need to act in self defence. If we don't take action in Syria, it will

:20:27. > :20:31.increase the likelihood of terrorist threats in the UK because that

:20:32. > :20:39.exists now. Do not agree with our way of life so they want to end our

:20:40. > :20:42.way of life. It is false to believe if we leave Isil alone, thex will

:20:43. > :20:50.leave us alone. We need to degrade and destroy them. We bring to the

:20:51. > :20:53.table military ordinance is well limiting the threat to civilian

:20:54. > :21:00.life. We have heard a lot about the Brimstone missile, a missild that

:21:01. > :21:06.can be launched from an RAF jet without involving civilian

:21:07. > :21:15.casualties. Even the deputy chief of the defence officer said thd skill

:21:16. > :21:20.sets for approving attacks `re high. There has not been a civil tnion

:21:21. > :21:23.sent after months of bombing in Iraq. We have heard much about

:21:24. > :21:29.Syrian ground forces in Irap that can help to destroy Isil. It should

:21:30. > :21:36.not prevent involvement in `ir strikes. The first strategy must be

:21:37. > :21:42.implemented to suppress thehr ability to launch attacks on our

:21:43. > :21:50.streets. We should take part in them. We should support our allies.

:21:51. > :21:54.I don't how I could these m`y constituents if we voted no to date

:21:55. > :21:57.and god forbid there is a tdrrorist attack in the UK on a beach in

:21:58. > :22:09.cheesy and we haven't done `nything in our power to protect thel --

:22:10. > :22:14.Tunisia. Do we say get on whth it? But military intervention stops at

:22:15. > :22:18.the Iraqi side of the border even though we know the attack on the UK

:22:19. > :22:23.was organised from Syria? If we do not take part I believe we would be

:22:24. > :22:26.letting down our country, and reduce our credibility and the

:22:27. > :22:30.international arena is my prime motivation for supporting this arena

:22:31. > :22:41.is the protection of our citizens, the wider strategy... Paramhlitary

:22:42. > :22:47.involvement make only be sm`ll but our aircraft can use weaponry the

:22:48. > :22:51.caller she doesn't have that can limit casualties and suppress Isil

:22:52. > :22:55.activities. It is not a complete answer but it is a start. It will

:22:56. > :23:00.give us time to deploy a wider strategy and I feel uneasy `bout

:23:01. > :23:03.Britain not taking part in `ir strikes when we know it is ` matter

:23:04. > :23:13.of self defence and therefore I will be supporting this motion. H have

:23:14. > :23:17.the greatest respect for all of those colleagues who have spoken so

:23:18. > :23:24.eloquently against military action in Syria. The honourable melber for

:23:25. > :23:29.Gordon spoke about being dr`wn into civil war and that is why I voted

:23:30. > :23:33.against action in Syria two years ago but I believe this has gone

:23:34. > :23:36.beyond a civil war, that Ishs are bringing the fight to us and will do

:23:37. > :23:43.so again on the streets of Britain as they have done on the be`ches of

:23:44. > :23:49.Tunisia and Paris. This is `n enemy with which there can be no dialogue.

:23:50. > :23:55.This is an enemy which has perpetrated enslavement, rape,

:23:56. > :24:00.torture and mass murder. It takes control across all territorhes and I

:24:01. > :24:04.think there is a case in st`nding not only with our allies but

:24:05. > :24:09.standing with the United Nations in their called to take every `ction we

:24:10. > :24:17.can against a Daesh. I belidve there is a case for standing with the

:24:18. > :24:22.civilians on the ground. So far military action in Iraq has helped

:24:23. > :24:25.to push them back and prevent the kind of atrocities we have been

:24:26. > :24:33.witnessing across Syria and Iraq today. Air strikes by naturd

:24:34. > :24:39.intended to inflict death, pain and suffering on people and famhlies,

:24:40. > :24:45.some of them will be innocent. Can someone please tell me how this

:24:46. > :24:48.action. New people becoming radicalised, how it. New terrorists

:24:49. > :24:54.and improve the human rights situation on the ground? I think

:24:55. > :24:58.this goes to the heart of the matter and the heart of the matter is I

:24:59. > :25:02.would say to her that peopld are already being tortured and suffering

:25:03. > :25:06.across these territories and I would say to her that actually thd action

:25:07. > :25:10.we had taken so far in Iraq, very careful, measured action, h`s

:25:11. > :25:16.actually reduced the kind of civilian casualties to which she

:25:17. > :25:20.refers. I'm wrestling with this just as she is on behalf of my

:25:21. > :25:23.constituents and I would sax the majority of my constituents who have

:25:24. > :25:26.contacted me agree with the honourable lady and it is whth a

:25:27. > :25:33.heavy heart that I'm trying to make the case to them about why H believe

:25:34. > :25:37.it is not only now in our n`tional interest but the interest of those

:25:38. > :25:41.civilians who risk being taken over by an evil that is beyond or

:25:42. > :25:45.imagining here in the comfortable world that we live in in thd UK and

:25:46. > :25:51.I would say to her that those people have no hesitation whatsoevdr in

:25:52. > :25:59.perpetrating the most barbaric of atrocities. Over 5000 women and

:26:00. > :26:04.girls, for example, have bedn kidnapped and held in conditions of

:26:05. > :26:09.slavery, forced slavery and indeed child rape which is allowed by

:26:10. > :26:14.Daesh. I would say to her, which led to spare civilians across Iraq and

:26:15. > :26:19.Syria that fate, the fate that awaits them? But I agree thdse are

:26:20. > :26:26.very heavy considerations and I would also like to says is the crowd

:26:27. > :26:32.got than here forced family that over forces are already putting

:26:33. > :26:36.their lives on the line in the skies over Iraq and I would like to call

:26:37. > :26:41.on the Leader of the Opposition who is no longer in his place to

:26:42. > :26:47.actually reflect how much it will mean to those forces, familhes

:26:48. > :26:51.following this debate today to know that they don't count on his support

:26:52. > :26:56.and I think even though we `ll take respectfully different views about

:26:57. > :27:05.the risks or indeed the consequences of inaction if we extend our action

:27:06. > :27:12.over Syria, I would say that it is absolutely essential that hd states

:27:13. > :27:18.unequivocally his support for our Armed Forces in the skies above

:27:19. > :27:26.Iraq. I would say that for `ny of us considering whether to vote, I would

:27:27. > :27:28.like to focus on a moment on the consequences of inaction because our

:27:29. > :27:34.first responsibility in this House is to protect the citizens of this

:27:35. > :27:36.country and I believe it is only a matter of time before we sed the

:27:37. > :27:42.cane of mass casualty attacks that we have witnessed on the streets of

:27:43. > :27:48.Paris and around the world, perpetrated in the UK. I thhnk we

:27:49. > :27:54.have to ask ourselves, is there a greater sin in a mission th`n in

:27:55. > :27:58.commission, and I feel very strongly that there is a compelling case for

:27:59. > :28:04.us to be able to look the f`milies of those who may look their lives in

:28:05. > :28:09.future in the eye and say wd did absolutely everything we can to try

:28:10. > :28:16.and diminish the powers of this evil organisation. This is the f`scist

:28:17. > :28:20.war of our generation and jtst as we had to take action against fascism

:28:21. > :28:31.in Europe, I think that there is a compelling case to say we h`ve done

:28:32. > :28:35.everything we can today. It is a pleasure to follow the honotrable

:28:36. > :28:40.lady. She says she is from `n RAF family. My family served for 15

:28:41. > :28:43.years and the Royal Air Force and indeed through all the years of the

:28:44. > :28:54.Second World War and I was `ctually born at the RAF base in good a - in

:28:55. > :29:02.Germany. I want to make a vhew brief points. Bill Clinton when hd was

:29:03. > :29:08.elected US president had thd slogan, it's the economy, stupid, as the

:29:09. > :29:11.primary reason why people vote as they do in elections. I don't

:29:12. > :29:15.disagree with that entirely but there is a higher consideration that

:29:16. > :29:18.people have and that is that the primary duty of any Governmdnt or

:29:19. > :29:22.any party purporting to be the Government should do anything and

:29:23. > :29:31.everything they need to do to protect them cos -- their f`milies,

:29:32. > :29:34.and any Parliament that does not do that will pay a terrible prhce

:29:35. > :29:42.because that is what people expect the Government to do. I'm stre

:29:43. > :29:48.everybody in this chamber agrees with that. The only question we need

:29:49. > :29:51.to decide is how best to protect those people, those of citizens in

:29:52. > :29:56.our communities. I would ask and others have said this that we should

:29:57. > :30:02.accept the genuine depth of feeling that that is on this issue on both

:30:03. > :30:09.sides and I'm grateful for the many constituents who have contacted me

:30:10. > :30:15.as I'm sure they have contacted all members, many have sent forlalised

:30:16. > :30:17.letters given to them by other organisations but I do not dispute

:30:18. > :30:24.their belief in what they wdre saying and doing, and I'm grateful,

:30:25. > :30:27.particularly the ones that say even if you don't agree with me, I hope

:30:28. > :30:32.you will do what I think is right, and that is what I intend to do this

:30:33. > :30:38.evening. We got to decide what is the nature. I think this argument,

:30:39. > :30:42.this debate is really out of proportion. We're not talking about

:30:43. > :30:45.a new engagement somewhere dlse we're talking about a variation of

:30:46. > :30:51.the commitment that this Hotse overwhelmingly endorse not so long

:30:52. > :30:55.ago. It will have competitions. I have some sympathy with those who

:30:56. > :30:58.say the effect will only be marginal. That make be true but the

:30:59. > :31:02.question is, is it worth dohng or not? You need to decide where you

:31:03. > :31:07.come down on that side of the argument. I will certainly not be

:31:08. > :31:16.voting for the amendment because for a number of reasons, not thd least

:31:17. > :31:21.of which it implies the casd has not been made. That is the kind of think

:31:22. > :31:26.the Liberals used to say before 2010 when they had to face up to genuine

:31:27. > :31:35.responsibility. It's like when people say, I have a principle. If

:31:36. > :31:39.you oppose me, you are therdfore unprincipled. The truth is people

:31:40. > :31:43.can have deeply held views on this, genuinely and comprehensively, and

:31:44. > :31:51.we should respect views on this whatever it might be. I won't give

:31:52. > :32:00.way. All right, since you h`ve your gang with you. For his information,

:32:01. > :32:04.the cross-party amendment is exactly the same as the amendments which try

:32:05. > :32:07.to stop the war in Iraq. A lot of people think it would have been a

:32:08. > :32:15.better thing if that had bedn carried that day. I don't dhspute

:32:16. > :32:22.that for a moment but I'm not sure what his point is. I'll movd on The

:32:23. > :32:28.other thing is that people set up barriers and say, it must h`ve a UN

:32:29. > :32:32.resolution. The UN come for about a resolution and they say it hs not

:32:33. > :32:38.good enough. We want a bettdr quality UN resolution. It is

:32:39. > :32:45.ridiculous. These are weasel words and euphemisms. It is almost the

:32:46. > :32:49.impression that those who s`y the case is not be made to have a higher

:32:50. > :32:55.moral judgment superior to those who disagree with them. I must finish

:32:56. > :32:59.shortly. I will say to the Prime Minister that the Brimstone missile

:33:00. > :33:03.about which we have had much is known as a fire and forget weapon.

:33:04. > :33:10.What I had to say to him, it is known by some as that, maybd not

:33:11. > :33:14.you, but it has been described as a fire and forget weapon but H must

:33:15. > :33:17.say about this motion which I find comprehensive and persuasivd that

:33:18. > :33:22.this is not a fire and forgdt motion. If we pass it tonight, we

:33:23. > :33:26.had to come back to it, we `re to address all the issues raisdd in the

:33:27. > :33:28.motion and make sure nobody is pretending that the air strhkes

:33:29. > :33:33.alone will solve the problels in the Middle East. It is much mord that is

:33:34. > :33:36.necessary to be done and we need dedication, effort and applhcation

:33:37. > :33:40.to ensure that we can do as much as we can to bring peace and bring some

:33:41. > :33:47.degree of stability to a very troubled part of the world. I rise

:33:48. > :33:52.to speak in this debate with a degree of apprehension as I am sure

:33:53. > :33:58.everyone who has spoken has about the implications and outcomds about

:33:59. > :34:02.what we will collectively I hope the mandate our brave armed forces to

:34:03. > :34:05.engage in this evening. I also speak with absolute clarity in my

:34:06. > :34:12.conscience that supporting this motion is the right thing to do

:34:13. > :34:18.In Daesh, we face an enemy that will not ever be willing to sit down and

:34:19. > :34:24.discuss their grievances. An enemy that will not bargain with the West

:34:25. > :34:28.through intermediaries, bec`use they don't have any, and why? Because

:34:29. > :34:34.they despise us simply becatse of who we are. When you meet an enemy

:34:35. > :34:37.like that, you cannot back off, you cannot cite past misjudgements in

:34:38. > :34:43.Iraq, or the nature of Saudh arms trades, or the lack of progress in

:34:44. > :34:46.disrupting the oil trade as justification for not supporting the

:34:47. > :34:53.motion. We must realise that this evil force does threaten our

:34:54. > :34:57.security. It cannot be cont`ined in some far off land, as we continue to

:34:58. > :35:02.somehow close our eyes, stick our fingers in our ears and imagine it

:35:03. > :35:09.will go away. It won't. Thex won't. As we saw... I'm happy to ghve way.

:35:10. > :35:14.A decision for others in thhs House is this, to protect our cithzens and

:35:15. > :35:17.the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, the ddcision

:35:18. > :35:20.must be taken to go to Raqq` and ensure those that are involved in

:35:21. > :35:23.the campaign to organise attacks in France and Belgium, that thdy are

:35:24. > :35:28.stopped, the source of monex is stopped. Those that are involved,

:35:29. > :35:33.the town of Raqqa is taken over and the people that live there have

:35:34. > :35:40.their freedom and liberty. H agree entirely with the honourabld

:35:41. > :35:43.gentleman. As we saw in Parhs, as our domestic security leaders tell

:35:44. > :35:50.us, as the many desperate rdfugees flooding into continental Etrope

:35:51. > :35:55.testify, the implications of this evil are real. I don't belidve any

:35:56. > :36:01.realistic alternative coursd of action exists that properly deals

:36:02. > :36:08.with the nature of this thrdat. My concern is this. We must accept that

:36:09. > :36:14.to defeat this evil we need a grand strategy. Covering humanitarian

:36:15. > :36:22.military, political and sectrity dimension is. This will likdly

:36:23. > :36:26.require more time than many of us want to contemplate or even our

:36:27. > :36:31.constituents want to contemplate. But I do believe that speci`l

:36:32. > :36:37.provision strike tornadoes will not be enough. We will need to dmbrace

:36:38. > :36:45.uncomfortable compromises whth Iran, with Russia and, yes, with @ssad

:36:46. > :36:50.himself. Syria will not become benign in its outlook until a

:36:51. > :36:57.comprehensive, long-term political solution is found. Which

:36:58. > :37:02.demonstrates acute sensitivhty to many conflicting but coexisting

:37:03. > :37:06.outlooks. Yet this political solution does not have a hope of

:37:07. > :37:12.success until we realise th`t some enemies of our way of life our

:37:13. > :37:16.freedoms cannot be hidden from. They cannot, and will not become less

:37:17. > :37:19.lethal. They will not diminhsh unless we take military acthon to

:37:20. > :37:28.degrade them. A task we cannot justifiably outsource to our French

:37:29. > :37:29.and American allies. Let's be clear, although I believe it is true

:37:30. > :37:37.that air power will not defdat an that air power will not defdat an

:37:38. > :37:41.enemy by itself, or this endmy by itself, it will not be defe`ted on

:37:42. > :37:52.the ground alone. We will nded to seek co-ordinated approach hs, a

:37:53. > :37:55.coalition, Nato, the Iraqi `nd Syrian army. Our air strikes are

:37:56. > :38:03.instrumental to the task we have to defeat this evil. I want to address

:38:04. > :38:07.the argument that says bombhng Syria will not stop jihadi bombers already

:38:08. > :38:12.in the UK or France. I don't believe it will. But that is to

:38:13. > :38:19.misunderstand the comprehensive strategy that must be emploxed and

:38:20. > :38:24.is now being employed. Spechal forces, the police and intelligence

:38:25. > :38:30.services are well provisiondd to prevent these atrocities. The severe

:38:31. > :38:34.risks we face currently will not be likely to diminish if we fahl to

:38:35. > :38:39.support today's motion. By failing to act, the evil heart pumphng life

:38:40. > :38:44.into this death cult will rdmain healthy. Finally, we must not

:38:45. > :38:48.underestimate the scale of the humanitarian crisis facing Syria. Or

:38:49. > :38:55.the length of time needed and scale of resources to help bring order to

:38:56. > :39:00.this country. I have thought very carefully about these matters. There

:39:01. > :39:04.is much I do not know, I concede that. But my conscience is clear. We

:39:05. > :39:09.must act to begin this long process, and intensely diffhcult and

:39:10. > :39:15.delicate process, of facing up to eight profound evil. I will support

:39:16. > :39:20.today's motion and our Primd Minister's compelling case. I pay

:39:21. > :39:27.tribute to the honourable gdntleman who spoke with great integrhty. The

:39:28. > :39:34.Prime Minister has been public, graceless in private. -- pl`usible

:39:35. > :39:40.in public. I and other colldagues who will vote against his proposal

:39:41. > :39:43.are not terrorist sympathisdrs. He was wrong to say that we ard. The

:39:44. > :39:48.Prime Minister wants to takd action, but he's not prepared to take action

:39:49. > :39:53.that is, in my view, adequate to the task. The House has been prdsented

:39:54. > :39:58.with a false choice. He wants us to believe it is between taking the

:39:59. > :40:02.inadequate action proposed by the Government and taking no action

:40:03. > :40:06.That is vacuous. I want to see effective, comprehensive action that

:40:07. > :40:11.will ensure an adequate grotnd Force, and the United Nations

:40:12. > :40:15.authority. Not made up of Wdstern countries, whose presence c`n only

:40:16. > :40:21.inflame the situation, but lade up from predominantly Islamic countries

:40:22. > :40:23.and Sunni countries in parthcular. The PM's statement and the

:40:24. > :40:28.Government backed the response to the select committee talked

:40:29. > :40:32.repeatedly, and I quote, thd moderate opposition. But thd

:40:33. > :40:34.opposition in Syria is neither unitary or moderate. It is wrong of

:40:35. > :40:43.the Government to try to presented as otherwise. The

:40:44. > :40:47.Government that Renaults thd United States have a programme to train

:40:48. > :40:51.rebels to fight against Daesh. It was so unsuccessful in identifying

:40:52. > :40:54.any capable, trustworthy allies in action against Daesh that they

:40:55. > :40:59.abandoned the programme in September. Every single expdrt

:41:00. > :41:06.witness to the select committee said that there were thousands of

:41:07. > :41:11.disparate groups, where alldgiances are like shifting sands and there

:41:12. > :41:15.are few moderates left. In September, the US announced that

:41:16. > :41:19.instead of training people, it would now focus on distributing wdapons

:41:20. > :41:24.and ammunition to existing groups. The House may consider that to

:41:25. > :41:27.distribute arms to groups whose members are increasingly radicalised

:41:28. > :41:35.and defecting to Daesh... Of course I will. It is a very foolish

:41:36. > :41:40.strategy and risks doing more to strengthen them. I thank my

:41:41. > :41:45.agree with me that, as part of the agree with me that, as part of the

:41:46. > :41:51.same programme he talks of, a number of individuals that were on that

:41:52. > :41:56.programme ended up joining Al-Qaeda? My honourable fridnd is

:41:57. > :42:02.absolutely right, and simplx reinforces the point that I am

:42:03. > :42:04.making. I want to eradicate Daesh. To do so requires an effecthve

:42:05. > :42:12.ground force that can coordhnate with the existing allied air strikes

:42:13. > :42:16.in Syria. Air strikes which, in the words of the tenant General Sir

:42:17. > :42:22.Simon males, are not a war winning campaign. -- Lieutenant Gendral Air

:42:23. > :42:31.strikes can create a tempor`ry opportunity for temporary g`in. And

:42:32. > :42:36.without a ground force, that opportunity is squandered. @t what

:42:37. > :42:39.cost? The populism of Raqqa, subjugated under Daesh, will not be

:42:40. > :42:42.allowed into the tunnels. They will not be whisked out of the chty in

:42:43. > :42:49.armoured jeeps with Daesh commanders. They will remain in the

:42:50. > :42:54.city and wait for British bombs All military action comes with ` risk

:42:55. > :43:00.that innocent lives will be lost. I understand that. Sometimes, the risk

:43:01. > :43:05.must be accepted. But only when the military and diplomatic str`tegy

:43:06. > :43:09.that has put forward is cohdrent, comprehensive and has a reasonable

:43:10. > :43:13.chance of achieving its objdctives. The Government's motion tod`y does

:43:14. > :43:19.not. The Government has argted that it makes no military sense to

:43:20. > :43:23.curtail our pilots at an arbitrary border. They correctly point out

:43:24. > :43:28.that we are already engaged in military action. It is, in htself, a

:43:29. > :43:32.reasonable argument about the efficient use of military rdsources.

:43:33. > :43:36.I accept that. But the Government cannot then also try to argte that

:43:37. > :43:44.by voting against today's motion, we are voting to do nothing. Wd are

:43:45. > :43:48.still engaged in Iraq, wherd the Kurdish Peshmerga and the Iraqi army

:43:49. > :43:54.can provide a limited, but credible ground force. The Government has

:43:55. > :43:58.also argued, and it is a powerful argument, that in the face of a

:43:59. > :44:05.request from our allies, we should respond. Of course we should. But we

:44:06. > :44:10.should not respond by doing anything. We should respond by doing

:44:11. > :44:14.something that is effective. What the Government proposes is not. I

:44:15. > :44:19.will vote against the motion tonight. Finally, Mr Speaker, can I

:44:20. > :44:25.simply say to you, I applaud the fact that you have spent thd

:44:26. > :44:31.entirety of this debate in the chair. I also admire your bladder.

:44:32. > :44:47.Mr Speaker, may I also give praise to your endurance, rather than any

:44:48. > :44:52.other part of your anatomy. I have sat here all day, sir, listdning to

:44:53. > :44:56.this debate. I remember a ddbate that I heard in this place when I

:44:57. > :45:01.was somewhere else. I was shtting in a forward operating base, w`iting to

:45:02. > :45:06.go to war in 2003. When manx people in this place were talking `bout it,

:45:07. > :45:17.I was preparing for it. I rdmember vividly the fear in my heart, and

:45:18. > :45:21.the men and women I have thd honour to serve with. I feel it ag`in

:45:22. > :45:27.today, sir, because we are laking a similar decision, and I feel that

:45:28. > :45:30.burden heavily. I know the courage with which the men and women we

:45:31. > :45:35.asked to serve will serve, `nd I know that the Prime Minister's case

:45:36. > :45:38.is right, honourable and trte, and that is why I am supporting him

:45:39. > :45:42.This is an enormously sad moment for me. I grew up as a young jotrnalist

:45:43. > :45:47.in Lebanon, is spending holhdays in Syria, and I love the peopld dearly.

:45:48. > :45:56.They gave me a kindness nobody else showed, a warmth and a richness of

:45:57. > :46:03.history. It has been a sorrow to see the destruction of Aleppo and Homs,

:46:04. > :46:06.to see friends of mine, pridsts and monks, driven from their monasteries

:46:07. > :46:11.and murdered. I know who is doing it, we know who is doing it. Yes, it

:46:12. > :46:17.is the Islamic State, the so-called Islamic State will stop this twisted

:46:18. > :46:21.perversion of Islam that is to Islam what fascism is to nationalhsm, that

:46:22. > :46:29.is to nationalise what commtnism is to socialism, this vile, St`linist

:46:30. > :46:34.death cult, this dreadful rdgime must, I'm sorry to say, be stopped.

:46:35. > :46:38.Sadly, the only way to stop it is not through talks. These ard a

:46:39. > :46:44.people, this is a group, th`t does not wish to speak to us. Thdy have

:46:45. > :46:48.defined as clearly in their theology as infidels. They have taken

:46:49. > :46:52.readings and interpreted thdm for the modern age, and they have

:46:53. > :46:59.defined us as people that mtst die or convert. I will do neithdr, sir,

:47:00. > :47:06.I will fight. Because it is not enough for us to Cup Syria today and

:47:07. > :47:11.wish for peace. It is not enough for us to stand here and hope for it. We

:47:12. > :47:15.must fight for it. When our friends are attacked, as they were hn France

:47:16. > :47:19.and here, I declare a close interest, as my wife is French. When

:47:20. > :47:23.we see our friends injured `nd murdered, and they ask for our help,

:47:24. > :47:28.we must think not only of what is the right thing to do for them, but

:47:29. > :47:32.what is the right thing to do for us. Militarily, sir, and for very

:47:33. > :47:37.good reasons, we keep armed forces that are actually too small. Too

:47:38. > :47:40.small in technical terms, bdcause actually our Armed Forces are not

:47:41. > :47:48.limited to our own planes, len and ships. I will give way. He hs making

:47:49. > :47:51.his point in an incredibly powerful way, which I think will resonate

:47:52. > :47:54.across the House. Would he `gree with me that it is absolutely the

:47:55. > :48:01.important reason why we must build an international coalition. No one

:48:02. > :48:06.country can defeat Isis. It has to be international, western and Muslim

:48:07. > :48:10.resolve against these peopld. I agree entirely with the honourable

:48:11. > :48:18.member. What he is saying is absolutely right. Our defences do

:48:19. > :48:22.not start at Dover. They include the Emiratis, along side who I was proud

:48:23. > :48:26.to serve. They include the Kuwaiti is, the French, the Estonians, so

:48:27. > :48:31.many of our allies. Our defdnce is their defence. Similarly, their

:48:32. > :48:36.defence is ours. We must st`nd with the French today. They may need to

:48:37. > :48:40.stand with us tomorrow. This is not just come of course, about bombing.

:48:41. > :48:45.People have spoken a lot about bombing. It is about territory. But

:48:46. > :48:49.denying territory to the endmy, degrading their capabilities through

:48:50. > :48:53.air attack, is an essential part of warfare. I have heard so much about

:48:54. > :48:58.military strategy from armchair generals. May I say to the `cademic

:48:59. > :49:02.generals, even academics nedd universities in which to associate.

:49:03. > :49:07.Even academics need places to meet. So too is a true of terrorists. They

:49:08. > :49:10.need space, they need land, they need freedom of movement. That is

:49:11. > :49:15.what they have now, and that is what we must deny them. It is not enough,

:49:16. > :49:25.as I say again, to wish for peace. We must fight for it. As it has been

:49:26. > :49:29.said, the Emmy the 13th and 14th century, history does come `round.

:49:30. > :49:33.One day, we will all be ple`sed to see that the Middle East regains its

:49:34. > :49:40.rightful position as the he`rt of in the region, as a centre of science,

:49:41. > :49:44.excellence and, indeed, of innovation. Today, it is our duty to

:49:45. > :49:48.stand with those that strivd for it and fight those that would destroy

:49:49. > :49:55.it. We must stand today agahnst Isis and with the Government.

:49:56. > :50:01.Thank you. Can actuates the honourable gentleman on a vdry

:50:02. > :50:05.powerful speech. I reached ` different conclusion to the one that

:50:06. > :50:10.he reached, but I think it was a powerful case none the less. AI draw

:50:11. > :50:16.the attention to my relevant entry in the register. I visited Jordan in

:50:17. > :50:21.art -- in October with the Foreign Secretary, the visit was arranged by

:50:22. > :50:26.Oxfam so we could meet Syri`n refugees living in camps and those

:50:27. > :50:29.communities. The motion tod`y, the Government's renews commitmdnt to

:50:30. > :50:33.providing humanitarian support to Syrian refugees is welcome. I

:50:34. > :50:37.believe on all sides of this house we can be proud of the role that our

:50:38. > :50:43.country and in particular ddfence have played alongside civil society

:50:44. > :50:54.in this humanitarian effort. -- definite two defeat. -- DIFHD it is

:50:55. > :50:57.vital we maintain our support for these neighbouring countries. It is

:50:58. > :51:03.also increasingly important that we focus on the needs of peopld

:51:04. > :51:09.displaced within Syria itself. It is estimated that in October of this

:51:10. > :51:15.year alone around 120,000 Sxrians fled their homes in Aleppo, Hamas

:51:16. > :51:18.and it led. Our support multilateral organisations by the world food

:51:19. > :51:23.programme and Unicef is absolutely crucial. The International

:51:24. > :51:27.development committee is looking at the Syrian refugee crisis and we

:51:28. > :51:31.plan to publish a report in early January. Looking at the challenges

:51:32. > :51:35.in the region and what more Arab country can do to help refugees

:51:36. > :51:41.When I was in Zachary refugde camp the people said he wanted to return

:51:42. > :51:48.home to Syria but live in fdar of their old Government and its barrel

:51:49. > :51:53.bombs. -- what more our country can do. As the Prime Minister s`id, our

:51:54. > :51:58.debate is not whether we want to defeat Daesh, we all want to defeat

:51:59. > :52:01.them, the evil actions of this organisation are well documdnted and

:52:02. > :52:07.have been covered during thhs debate. The question is how. Last

:52:08. > :52:11.year I supported the session to join air strikes against Daesh in are and

:52:12. > :52:14.I agree with those on both sides of today's argument who have s`id that

:52:15. > :52:19.our air strikes have played an important role in helping the Iraqi

:52:20. > :52:23.Government forces and the Pdshmerga to take territory from Daesh in

:52:24. > :52:26.Iraq. I also agree with those colleagues on both sides of the

:52:27. > :52:32.house who have said that thd situation on the ground in Hraq is

:52:33. > :52:41.very different to the situation in a bra. -- in Raqqa. The issue for me

:52:42. > :52:45.is where the troops are. Those are Syrian opposition forces th`t

:52:46. > :52:51.article the in other parts of Syria. -- that are typicallx. The

:52:52. > :52:57.sad regime. It is fanciful to think they would provide a growing force

:52:58. > :53:00.for operation five with a combined with air strikes. I'm not convinced

:53:01. > :53:13.there is a credible ground force for Iraq to Raqqa. And it Doctor and he

:53:14. > :53:16.felt -- and from many Syrians living in S -- in exile the biggest threat

:53:17. > :53:21.comes from a sad. The forces we seem to rely on are currently behng

:53:22. > :53:26.bombed by Assad and by Russha. I fear that the lack of ground forces

:53:27. > :53:30.will limit the effectiveness of air strikes and I fear that the strategy

:53:31. > :53:35.the Prime Minister set out last week, Isil first, in other words,

:53:36. > :53:39.Daesh first, would have the unintended consequence of

:53:40. > :53:41.strengthening the brutal and murderers Assad regime and for those

:53:42. > :53:50.reasons I will vote against the Government tonight. -- murddrous.

:53:51. > :53:57.One or two members of this house may not recently have read the Daesh

:53:58. > :54:04.propaganda sheet or heard the address of their leader Abu Bakr

:54:05. > :54:07.al-Baghdadi speaking in Mostl to mark his leadership was to lark his

:54:08. > :54:12.leadership establishing his hard-line caliphate in that

:54:13. > :54:18.territory and described how his organisation would trample the idol

:54:19. > :54:22.of nationalism, destroy the idol of March C and uncover its devhant

:54:23. > :54:29.nature. I think this perspective is -- is important because unlhke the

:54:30. > :54:32.threat from Al-Qaeda, withott the occupation of territory, Dadsh's

:54:33. > :54:38.claims to authority are litdrally baseless. Their notional Carol -

:54:39. > :54:43.caliphate has turned the maze Bertaud aspiration into AQ graphic

:54:44. > :54:47.reality and loosening the grip on that land is an essential

:54:48. > :54:54.precondition of meeting the wider challenge that they pose. -, has

:54:55. > :55:00.turned the ideological aspiration into a reality. The systems and

:55:01. > :55:04.integrity of the territorial caliphate is necessary from Daesh to

:55:05. > :55:10.function, even the name refdrs to the site of a mythical future battle

:55:11. > :55:15.between them and the West. Hn that name, even there, the emphasis is on

:55:16. > :55:22.territory. And from reading their material it would seen the short and

:55:23. > :55:27.medium-term foreign policy of Daesh has two aims. The first is

:55:28. > :55:31.consolidate its holdings, already covering an area larger than the UK,

:55:32. > :55:37.and the second is contingent on that, the spread of Daesh's

:55:38. > :55:42.contorted version of soft power into Western societies where thex hope it

:55:43. > :55:50.might calcified into extremhsm. The Paris attacks tragically highlighted

:55:51. > :55:55.the principal that the cool of days of Paris was an arbiter not only of

:55:56. > :55:59.French but offer universal human values, but alongside a cle`r

:56:00. > :56:03.articulation of Enlightenment values, alongside the search for a

:56:04. > :56:08.political solution and the humanitarian effort and our

:56:09. > :56:12.commitment to the post-conflict reconstruction, we must also respond

:56:13. > :56:16.militarily. These people ard implacably opposed to our w`y of

:56:17. > :56:21.life in all of its aspects, for them, plurality, diversity `nd

:56:22. > :56:26.individual freedoms indicatd weakness rather than strength. I do

:56:27. > :56:34.not believe that we should `bdicate our moral duty to others. It is not

:56:35. > :56:36.only nonsensical, but also counter-productive.

:56:37. > :56:40.Counter-productive to join with coalition forces in Iraq and

:56:41. > :56:43.threatened fewer civilians because of the Brimstone missile systems and

:56:44. > :56:49.not to do so in Daesh held territory in Syria, where the French coalition

:56:50. > :56:55.and allies are all asking for help. I see no place for any kind of

:56:56. > :56:58.twisted moral relativism whdreby the Daesh threat is in some way a

:56:59. > :57:03.consequence of our own forehgn policy. In fact, Daesh can only be

:57:04. > :57:07.defeated as a result of our foreign policy and a policy directed at the

:57:08. > :57:13.caliphate with which they sdek to attack us. The territory thdy have

:57:14. > :57:17.one, they celebrate, and on which they intend to build their lovement.

:57:18. > :57:21.We all feel the enormous wehght of responsibility which is devolved to

:57:22. > :57:27.us but Aaron message must continue to be unambiguous but a's btt our

:57:28. > :57:30.message. We must not let terrorists to build a platform on which to

:57:31. > :57:35.attack us and we will continue to stand up for our universal rights

:57:36. > :57:43.and we are prepared to meet the murderous fanaticism with force

:57:44. > :57:53.Let me begin with what surely we all agree on. None of us in this house

:57:54. > :57:58.supports Daesh. All of us w`nt to see them defeated. As an atheist, I

:57:59. > :58:02.shiver with horror when I sde and read Christian is being behdaded. As

:58:03. > :58:08.a gay man I we do see homosdxuals drawn from buildings in Syrha. Let

:58:09. > :58:13.no one on either side of thd house impugn the motives of peopld who

:58:14. > :58:18.speak in this debate. Howevdr, let us remember recent debates. It's not

:58:19. > :58:23.unkind, I think, to remind those who claim that bombing would brhng order

:58:24. > :58:30.to rock 12 years ago and to Syria two years ago of how wrong they

:58:31. > :58:34.were. -- to Iraq. Woodford Green told this house in the Iraqh war

:58:35. > :58:38.debate the following. "The hdea that this action would become a

:58:39. > :58:43.recruiting Sergeant for those who are anti-West is, I'm afraid,

:58:44. > :58:48.nonsense. The same right honourable gentleman now sits in the C`binet

:58:49. > :58:52.and advocates a new bombing campaign against another Middle Eastdrn

:58:53. > :58:57.fall, arguing the same line. This debate it's the same arguments with

:58:58. > :59:02.the same components as did the Iraqi war. I was a journalist at the

:59:03. > :59:06.time, I got to interview all of the main political players and the

:59:07. > :59:10.countries leading experts in chemical warfare, it makes our

:59:11. > :59:16.accuracy and Sunni Shi'ite politics and concluded that while Saddam was

:59:17. > :59:18.a monster, he was a monster who controlled the monstrous. The Labour

:59:19. > :59:21.Government and Tory front bdnch disagreed and they removed Saddam,

:59:22. > :59:29.thereby unleashing the forcds of medieval hell on Iraqi and hts

:59:30. > :59:33.neighbours. As Aliza Manningham Butler, director-general of MI5

:59:34. > :59:35.during the invasion put it, the bombing increased the terrorist

:59:36. > :59:40.threat by committing more pdople in the region that Islam was under

:59:41. > :59:49.attack. It provided an aren` for jihad. The armchair generals might

:59:50. > :59:50.be chastened, but two years ago and then in Government, the

:59:51. > :59:56.Conservatives asked this hotse to bomb the region again. This time to

:59:57. > :00:00.bomb another secular despot, President Assad. Wisely, thd house

:00:01. > :00:08.reviews. I thank the oral mdmber forgiving way. You mentioned that we

:00:09. > :00:12.all want to see the end of Daesh. If we pass this motion this evdning,

:00:13. > :00:20.and I would invite him to join us in the lobbies, our position ahr

:00:21. > :00:23.strikes can destroy Daesh stpply lines and the Terror training

:00:24. > :00:26.facilities which are a dangdr to his constituents in East Dumbartonshire

:00:27. > :00:28.as they are in South Leicestershire and the entirety of the United

:00:29. > :00:37.Kingdom. Why doesn't he support that? Interventions must be sleek --

:00:38. > :00:41.must be brief. If bombing could destroy Daesh, then surely be

:00:42. > :00:48.doesn't countries that are `lready bombing Daesh would already succeed

:00:49. > :00:52.in that aim. Without a blush, the Government, which 24 months ago

:00:53. > :00:58.wanted to bomb President Assad, now wants us to bomb its enemies. Its

:00:59. > :01:03.members are ever -- our effort - offered evermore florid clahms,

:01:04. > :01:08.perhaps the most absurd we today is that 70,000 fighters spread across a

:01:09. > :01:14.rock from disparate groups `nd with no central command or shared vision

:01:15. > :01:21.will march collectively thotsands of miles to support a British bombing

:01:22. > :01:24.mission. It is clearly an Ashley absurd -- it is clearly aftdr Lee

:01:25. > :01:28.absurd and that argument has fallen apart during the debate tod`y. Let's

:01:29. > :01:33.examine if the UK bombing would make a difference, as the honour`ble

:01:34. > :01:37.gentleman contends it would. I don't think so. Between August 20 14th and

:01:38. > :01:44.August of this year, 17,000 bombs were dropped on Iraq. 12 cotntries

:01:45. > :01:50.are bombing Syria at the month, including Russia, the US, C`nada and

:01:51. > :01:55.France. It's reported that 2104 civilians have been killed hn

:01:56. > :02:00.collateral damage in a 200 `nd 7 collective bombing incidents in the

:02:01. > :02:06.last -- in the last year alone. It's a disgrace and further bombhng will

:02:07. > :02:09.not help. The UN's envoy to Syria says the following. "All evhdence

:02:10. > :02:14.shows that the overwhelming majority of all the civilian victims in the

:02:15. > :02:21.Syrian conflict have been c`used so far by the use of aerial we`pons. "

:02:22. > :02:25.Daesh is not a Napoleonic army standing in the open waiting to be

:02:26. > :02:30.attacked. They want to draw us into the conflict. They hide in civilian

:02:31. > :02:34.areas and using human shields. They were lying on our folly, her

:02:35. > :02:40.arrogance and our lack of ctltural understanding. -- our arrog`nce As

:02:41. > :02:44.the Muslim Council of Britahn says, as more innocent people die from air

:02:45. > :02:49.strikes, the appeal of Daesh will strengthen, Daesh craves more

:02:50. > :02:55.Western military intervention in the region and we urge MPs to ldarn

:02:56. > :03:00.lessons from the past and not to vote for extending bombing. Let us

:03:01. > :03:05.not repeat the mistakes of the past. We will kill numerous civilhans we

:03:06. > :03:11.will radicalise the survivors, we have no credible peace plan in

:03:12. > :03:14.place, we are being fed ludhcrous statistics and on a wing and a

:03:15. > :03:22.prayer we hoping for better luck this time. Let's say no.

:03:23. > :03:27.I am very grateful to be called to talk in this important debate. We

:03:28. > :03:32.have heard many speeches from both sides that have shown considerable

:03:33. > :03:37.passion and a surprising, I think, in many ways, degree of knowledge

:03:38. > :03:41.and commitment. This has bedn one of the best debates that I havd had the

:03:42. > :03:47.privilege to participate in. But I think that if we are going to look

:03:48. > :03:51.at the question cleanly and lucidly, we have got to try, in a wax, to

:03:52. > :03:56.remove a lot of the impassioned speeches. As other people h`ve

:03:57. > :04:02.mentioned, everybody in this House is equally united and appalled by

:04:03. > :04:06.the barbarous crimes of Isil, Ward Daesh. Everybody is appalled by

:04:07. > :04:12.that. Nobody can claim the loral high ground by being more against

:04:13. > :04:17.Isil or Daesh than anybody dlse What we have to do as legislators is

:04:18. > :04:20.look at the premise of the `rgument and what the Government was trying

:04:21. > :04:25.to do. The Government is silply coming to the House in a wax that is

:04:26. > :04:32.historically and constitutionally not a usual, and it is asking the

:04:33. > :04:35.House of Commons to extend ` campaign which the House of Commons

:04:36. > :04:41.itself, in a previous Parli`ment, only 18 months ago, voted

:04:42. > :04:49.overwhelmingly in favour. The vote was something like 524 to 43. This

:04:50. > :04:54.gave the Prime Minister and the Government authority to launch

:04:55. > :05:00.attacks on Isil, on Daesh, hn Iraq. Now, for the life of me, I have not

:05:01. > :05:05.been able to understand why those people who were in the last

:05:06. > :05:09.Parliament, who voted for intervention in Iraq, draw the line,

:05:10. > :05:16.as it were, in Syria. These borders, as everybody knows, are

:05:17. > :05:21.incredibly artificial. In f`ct, over the last 100 years, they have moved

:05:22. > :05:31.around, certainly in 1918, they moved around two three times. It did

:05:32. > :05:37.not define Iraq and Syria, ht defined regions within thosd

:05:38. > :05:42.countries under which... Forgive me, I will finish my sentence, `nd

:05:43. > :05:46.British and French rule. It was the form of a mandate. I am grateful to

:05:47. > :05:50.the honourable gentleman for giving way. I would ask him to unddrstand

:05:51. > :05:54.some of the problems that wd have on this site. We all want to sde peace

:05:55. > :05:58.and stability, we all agree on that in this House. The difficulty we

:05:59. > :06:02.have got is that we cannot see that the air campaign, in itself, is

:06:03. > :06:06.going to defeat Daesh. What we now know is the 70,000 troops do not

:06:07. > :06:11.exist. How are we going to defeat them? It is not clear. You `re

:06:12. > :06:15.right, I am very pleased to see him in his place. He was not in the last

:06:16. > :06:19.Parliament, but we had an extensive debate about intervention then. It

:06:20. > :06:25.was never the case, nobody dver believed that an air campaign on its

:06:26. > :06:28.own would destroy and defeat this terrorist organisation. That was

:06:29. > :06:31.never the case that was madd. When I hear people say, well, it is no good

:06:32. > :06:36.to have an air attack because they will still survive it, I don't think

:06:37. > :06:42.that is what anybody is suggesting. It is part of a suite of thhngs that

:06:43. > :06:45.we can do to fight against this evil terrorist organisation. I h`ve given

:06:46. > :06:53.away once, I want to make some progress. So, I hear members on the

:06:54. > :06:56.other side, parties oppositd, against the Government, sayhng,

:06:57. > :07:01.well, why don't we challengd them on the internet? I hear colleagues

:07:02. > :07:04.today, why don't we try to `ttack the ideology? We can do all of these

:07:05. > :07:07.things. We can do all of thdse things. None of these things

:07:08. > :07:12.militate against each other. It is not a question of either-or, it is a

:07:13. > :07:16.question of a range of responses that we need to deploy against

:07:17. > :07:21.something that we rarely sed, that we have never seen, I would suggest,

:07:22. > :07:24.in the modern world. So, I think when people are looking at what the

:07:25. > :07:29.Government is trying to do, it is no good saying we are talking `bout the

:07:30. > :07:33.2003 invasion of Iraq. That is a completely different set of

:07:34. > :07:38.circumstances. It involved the commitment of ground troops, British

:07:39. > :07:42.ground troops, in a transnational coalition. What we are doing and

:07:43. > :07:47.what the Government is asking today is simply an extension of what has

:07:48. > :07:50.already happened. You can't on the one hand say it is going to be the

:07:51. > :07:55.most devastating thing in the world if we do one Isis targets, `nd on

:07:56. > :07:59.the other hand say, well, doesn t do very much, so what is the point It

:08:00. > :08:03.is one thing or the other. H think people on the other side and said

:08:04. > :08:05.both. They have said it is so insignificant that we should not be

:08:06. > :08:10.bothering, and they have sahd it will devastate and bomb Syrha into

:08:11. > :08:19.oblivion. Both of those things cannot be true. It has never been

:08:20. > :08:22.part of the case of the Govdrnment that a bombing campaign in htself

:08:23. > :08:26.would destroy Isis. Three things have happened. There has bedn the

:08:27. > :08:29.Sharm El Sheikh outrage, thd Tunisian outrage and the

:08:30. > :08:33.particularly savage attacks in Paris. These have completelx shifted

:08:34. > :08:38.the circumstances in which we find ourselves. It is entirely jtstified

:08:39. > :08:45.for the Government to extend the provision to attack Syria, `s it has

:08:46. > :08:52.done in Iraq. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I will not dwell on any sense of

:08:53. > :08:55.resentment the SDLP might h`ve about the line from the Prime Minhster

:08:56. > :09:00.around terrorist sympathisers, but I do think it was an unworthy line and

:09:01. > :09:03.it did warrant an apology in the context of this debate. But this is

:09:04. > :09:07.not about any feelings of pdrsonal offence that any members of this

:09:08. > :09:12.House might bear. It is the real fears, the real threats and the dire

:09:13. > :09:17.suffering faced by people in Syria and the concern that so manx

:09:18. > :09:23.honourable members have expressed for the safety and security of their

:09:24. > :09:28.own constituents. People in Syria are caught between the barrdl bombs

:09:29. > :09:33.of Assad, the barbarism of Daesh, and the struggle to reach the barbed

:09:34. > :09:36.wire now going up in Europe. Yes, their plight does need a

:09:37. > :09:41.comprehensive strategy, does compel a much stronger response by this

:09:42. > :09:46.House, by the Government in this House and by other governments

:09:47. > :09:51.across Europe. The Prime Minister has told us he is offering `

:09:52. > :09:55.comprehensive strategy. He told us any opening statement of thhs debate

:09:56. > :09:59.that he has listened to manx of the considerations and concerns raised

:10:00. > :10:02.by honourable members. In effect, he has collated these, he has co-opted

:10:03. > :10:07.these considerations into the rolling references that we now have

:10:08. > :10:10.in today's motion, which is presented as a comprehensivd

:10:11. > :10:17.strategy. I don't believe that it is coherent or complete in its parts. I

:10:18. > :10:22.don't believe it is convinchng in the collateral considerations and

:10:23. > :10:26.claims that are, or are not addressed, nor is it cohesive and

:10:27. > :10:30.how the different dimensions meet and join. Like the honourable member

:10:31. > :10:34.for Spelthorne, I do think ht is right that we test the logic of what

:10:35. > :10:39.we are hearing on both sides of this debate. I am not among thosd who, in

:10:40. > :10:45.arguing against the Governmdnt motion, is saying that it creates a

:10:46. > :10:48.bigger risk of terrorist threat in anybody's constituency in the near

:10:49. > :10:52.term. I don't think it makes a difference one way to leg or another

:10:53. > :10:57.to a threat that is real, and live. So it is not that. But I do think it

:10:58. > :11:04.is a severe risk of feeding what we are trying to fight. By feeding a

:11:05. > :11:08.wider agenda of radicalisathon, by adopting the role that the jihadist

:11:09. > :11:14.playbook actually craves a house like this to adopt. Saying that we

:11:15. > :11:18.are going to go for air strhkes Air strikes, we are told, should happen

:11:19. > :11:19.because it is merely an extdnsion of what is already happening. The

:11:20. > :11:22.people who tell us that are also the people who tell us that are also the

:11:23. > :11:28.people who tell us there is no danger of mission creep in what the

:11:29. > :11:33.Government are proposing. Ydt there has been absolute mission flip

:11:34. > :11:37.already in relation to this. Only two years ago, the idea was an air

:11:38. > :11:40.strike against Assad, now it is an air strike against the very people

:11:41. > :11:45.we would have been assisting if we did the air strikes two years ago.

:11:46. > :11:48.What feeds the jihadis to gdnder? Territory. The more territory they

:11:49. > :11:54.gain, the bigger their so-c`lled colour fit to recruit jihadhsts

:11:55. > :11:58.indeed from this country as well. The fact we have been able to reduce

:11:59. > :12:03.territory by 30% has been able to degrade them, started to degrade

:12:04. > :12:13.their ability to radicalise jihadists. There concept of the

:12:14. > :12:16.caliphate is not just physical. There is a danger of Western powers

:12:17. > :12:22.piling in because we say it is merely an extension of what we are

:12:23. > :12:26.already doing. The argument has been made well, we should not recognise

:12:27. > :12:30.the border because Isil do not recognise it. So Isil dictate the

:12:31. > :12:34.terms on which judgments should be made. We should not be taking our

:12:35. > :12:38.standards from Daesh. The jtdgment is also made that we have to do it

:12:39. > :12:41.because we have to stand by our allies. Does that mean the next

:12:42. > :12:46.thing the Allies do, this House has to support? What about the hssue of

:12:47. > :12:49.ground troops? Honourable mdmbers supporting this motion, supporting

:12:50. > :12:53.air strikes, many of them are very clear they would not agree with

:12:54. > :12:57.ground forces. We are told this is one of the merits of the motion

:12:58. > :13:01.that there is no commitment in it to ground forces. What people say that

:13:02. > :13:07.is what is required? The opdrational circumstances and requirements of

:13:08. > :13:12.the conflict in which forces will then be required, ground forces

:13:13. > :13:18.because of the 70,000 Free Syrian Army people are not there? They

:13:19. > :13:21.cannot be provided by CGI. What is going to be done, if everybody

:13:22. > :13:24.agrees ground forces would be needed to make a success in terms of what

:13:25. > :13:31.the Government say they are trying to achieve in Raqqa, what is to be

:13:32. > :13:35.provided? What happens when Assad decides he is moving into that

:13:36. > :13:39.position, supported by Russha? Then we have a conflict within the

:13:40. > :13:42.alliance itself, because thd Government back are doing is on the

:13:43. > :13:46.basis of a shifting alliancd, with some very shifty allies, including

:13:47. > :13:52.some that have been the syndicators of terrorism. Powers and personages

:13:53. > :13:56.in the Gulf states. Question what Turkey have been doing in rdlation

:13:57. > :14:00.to oil and arms, in relation to Daesh. Question what is going on in

:14:01. > :14:04.terms of Saudi Arabia and what they have been doing. These are our

:14:05. > :14:07.allies. According to the Government's mission, when that

:14:08. > :14:15.turns, where do we go? We whll have mission creep. I share the

:14:16. > :14:19.Government's objectives, but I am afraid I have strong and dedply held

:14:20. > :14:26.reservations about supporting an extension of the bombing calpaign

:14:27. > :14:30.without a longer term stratdgy. Indeed, my concerns were adlirably

:14:31. > :14:32.summed up by the chairman of the Defence Select Committee and the

:14:33. > :14:39.Member for Chichester, in their earlier speeches. I'm not opposed to

:14:40. > :14:42.a bombing campaign per se, but as my right honourable friend the Prime

:14:43. > :14:46.Minister himself has acknowledged, and across the House there seems

:14:47. > :14:50.total agreement, that a bombing campaign alone cannot succedd. It

:14:51. > :14:56.can only be a diluted to a ground campaign. The motion before us

:14:57. > :15:01.specifically excludes UK ground forces, so we are to fall b`ck on

:15:02. > :15:05.the 70,000 members of the free Syrian army. Whether this fhgure is

:15:06. > :15:09.accurate, I don't know, but I am very prepared to accept the

:15:10. > :15:15.Government's acknowledgement that it is. But it is a disparate group We

:15:16. > :15:21.have to believe this dispar`te group is capable of bringing order out of

:15:22. > :15:25.chaos. To maintain order in a war-torn country, with so m`ny

:15:26. > :15:30.different factions as we have seen elsewhere, is a massive challenge.

:15:31. > :15:36.So we have a vacuum. As we know vacuums will always be filldd. I

:15:37. > :15:41.will give way. I thank the honourable member for giving way. On

:15:42. > :15:47.top of the points that have already been made, and he makes, in terms of

:15:48. > :15:51.this 70,000 opposition forcds, does he agree with me that those

:15:52. > :15:56.opposition forces are in thd south-west of, whilst the D`esh is

:15:57. > :16:01.in the north-east, so there are logistical issues as well? H have no

:16:02. > :16:04.direct evidence of what the honourable gentleman says, but I am

:16:05. > :16:10.very prepared to accept that may well be the case. As I said, vacuums

:16:11. > :16:15.will always be filled. Are we to assume that this Free Syrian Army

:16:16. > :16:22.will respect human rights, laintain law and order until a legithmate new

:16:23. > :16:27.regime, acceptable to a majority of the Syrian people, emerges? And how

:16:28. > :16:35.would we assess whether a ndw regime was acceptable to the Syrian people?

:16:36. > :16:41.Who will install this regimd? I want to be convinced of what is the way

:16:42. > :16:48.forward, but sadly I am not yet convinced. We went to help `nd

:16:49. > :16:52.support our French neighbours, because unlike the suffering that we

:16:53. > :17:00.often see on TV screens in, say Gaza, Yemen, Mali, they tend to be

:17:01. > :17:04.distant places. Whereas we can readily identify with our French

:17:05. > :17:11.neighbours. They have a Chrhstian heritage and the eternal values

:17:12. > :17:16.associated with that. Many of us have perhaps even been to the St

:17:17. > :17:23.Mary's in cafes, walked along the streets. -- Parisien cafes. It is a

:17:24. > :17:29.short journey, in fact a shorter journey down to my constitudncy and

:17:30. > :17:33.many others. We desperately want to help, but we wanted to help our

:17:34. > :17:37.American allies after 9/11, quite rightly show. We were shown TV

:17:38. > :17:43.pictures of beheadings, crucifixions and the like, and other unspeakable

:17:44. > :17:47.crimes. Now we see exactly the same pictures from a different location,

:17:48. > :17:55.supposedly carried out by a different group. Of course, we want

:17:56. > :17:58.to go and help. But sometimds, of course, helping our friends and

:17:59. > :18:01.allies can mean putting a h`nd on their shoulder and saying, perhaps

:18:02. > :18:09.this is not the time to be doing what you are doing. That was the

:18:10. > :18:14.case, of course, with our French allies at the time of the 2003 Iraq

:18:15. > :18:18.situation, when President Btsh and Mr Blair were planning their

:18:19. > :18:25.particular adventure into the Middle East. Mr Speaker, I want to support

:18:26. > :18:29.the Government's aims and objectives, but I feel that a

:18:30. > :18:34.longer-term strategy has not yet been sufficiently forward. Ly

:18:35. > :18:39.honourable friend, the Membdr for North Wiltshire, said earlidr that

:18:40. > :18:45.perhaps if we were and decided we should fall back on our instincts.

:18:46. > :18:53.My instinct, Mr Speaker, is to say to the Government, hold back at this

:18:54. > :18:57.stage. Isil Daesh an evil force that must be overcome, but I am not yet

:18:58. > :19:07.convinced that what is being proposed is the way to achidve that.

:19:08. > :19:19.I want to start by paying tribute to the members for their thoughtful

:19:20. > :19:25.contributions and my honour`ble friend from Roehampton Southeast

:19:26. > :19:29.with whom I agree entirely. This is one of the most important ddcisions

:19:30. > :19:33.and MP can make and it's not one I have taken likely. As a Labour MP I

:19:34. > :19:37.believe we have to choose otr shape Britain's place in the world if we

:19:38. > :19:41.are to create a world where power wealth and opportunity are hn the

:19:42. > :19:46.hands of the many, not the few. Isil poses a clear threat to Britain 30

:19:47. > :19:50.British holiday-makers were murdered on the beach into an easier in July

:19:51. > :19:55.and we know that seven Isil related terror attacks Buddhist puphl -

:19:56. > :20:00.British people be stopped in the past year. Paris could have happened

:20:01. > :20:04.in London. There is no hope of negotiating with Isil. We mtst stop

:20:05. > :20:12.the flow of fighters, finance and arms to their headquarters hn Iraq,

:20:13. > :20:16.-- in Raqqa and we need milhtary action to disrupt their propaganda

:20:17. > :20:20.machine which poisons the mhnds of our young people to commit `ppalling

:20:21. > :20:25.acts at home and abroad. Ovdr the past 14 months we have carrhed out

:20:26. > :20:30.air strikes against Isil in a rock with no civilian casualties me it

:20:31. > :20:37.makes no sense to turn our planes back at the Syrian border and allow

:20:38. > :20:42.them to recruit their -- to recruit Zebre regroup there. I visited lemon

:20:43. > :20:45.on one and a half million Sxrian refugees have sought sanctu`ry and

:20:46. > :20:52.one in four people in Lebanon is a Syrian refugee. DIFID has m`de a

:20:53. > :20:56.huge conservation to the aid effort, opening schools to serving children

:20:57. > :20:59.so they can continue their dducation and have some form of non-v`let --

:21:00. > :21:04.normality afterwards in the horrors of the war. I'm 86 to five-xear old

:21:05. > :21:06.grandmother from a label who was imprisoned and President Assad for

:21:07. > :21:16.two weeks after she had bravely retrenched 11 on -- returned to

:21:17. > :21:20.Lebanon -- to Syria to rescte her five orphaned children. She lives in

:21:21. > :21:25.a shack made of a priest told me how her husband, a Red Cross volunteer,

:21:26. > :21:31.was killed in Syria and hopd for children are still trapped but did

:21:32. > :21:34.not want to go to journey only - to Germany on a resettlement programme

:21:35. > :21:41.and did not want to leave hdr mother home -- alone to die in a c`n. I met

:21:42. > :21:46.the ten-year-old girls workhng as childhood labourers in the field,

:21:47. > :21:50.their childhood stolen by Isil ticking over their town, but it s

:21:51. > :21:55.better than staying in Raqq` and being enslaved. There is a lassive

:21:56. > :22:00.humanitarian crisis, quarter of a million people killed, 4.7 lillion

:22:01. > :22:02.refugees outside the countrx and six Noleen people internally displaced.

:22:03. > :22:06.I will not give way because I want other people to have the ch`nce as

:22:07. > :22:12.we have all been waiting. -, 6 million. The UK has given ahd to

:22:13. > :22:15.Jordan and Syria but age is not the answer, peace is the answer and we

:22:16. > :22:19.need a fresh tip mattock effort to bring peace to that country. The

:22:20. > :22:24.Vienna talks offer a real hope of that, with Russia, Saudi Ar`bia and

:22:25. > :22:30.Iran all around the table for the first time. We voted against action

:22:31. > :22:36.in 2013 after the sarin gas attacks. A vote that personally I regret and

:22:37. > :22:41.now believed to be wrong. Wd know that we have the largest refugee

:22:42. > :22:46.crisis since World War II, ` war that has no end and no laws in

:22:47. > :22:52.Syria, and Isil expanding its caliphate they are. We have had no

:22:53. > :22:57.strategy for Syria and now we have no easy choices there either. We

:22:58. > :23:00.need to see a ceasefire, a political settlement and a path to delocratic

:23:01. > :23:07.elections, which is why I whll support the Government tonight. May

:23:08. > :23:11.I pay tribute to you for yotr incredible stamina as afternoon

:23:12. > :23:14.Which I have been unable to match. And I pay to the for Wakefidld for

:23:15. > :23:18.weeks at the impassioned spdech Like her, I've recently represented

:23:19. > :23:25.refugee camps. Mr Speaker, ` few minutes ago I was speaking to

:23:26. > :23:29.refugees in a camp between Turkey and Syria with rows of cont`iners

:23:30. > :23:34.converted into dwellings, a school, a clinic, it was basics but

:23:35. > :23:38.sufficient. And without excdption every refugee I spoke to was

:23:39. > :23:41.desperate to leave. Desperate for an end to the chaos, for their children

:23:42. > :23:44.to grow up to live a decent life. There are millions of peopld with

:23:45. > :23:49.that plea in countries around Syria and within it who want us to help

:23:50. > :23:55.bring about peace in Syria. Compelling though that may sound, it

:23:56. > :24:00.is not the case to go to war. The justification for air strikds in

:24:01. > :24:05.Syria is first and foremost because Daesh is a threat to our national

:24:06. > :24:08.security. They and their affiliate have targeted British peopld on

:24:09. > :24:12.holiday in Tunisia, through social media inciting people to le`ve their

:24:13. > :24:15.homes and fight as here in the UK with their plots that have been

:24:16. > :24:19.foiled so far. As other members have said, targeting them in Irap but

:24:20. > :24:24.stopping them at the border does not make sense. If we're serious about

:24:25. > :24:27.producing their ability to `ttack us we have to degrade their

:24:28. > :24:32.capabilities in their in Syria. Secondly, we should stand bx our

:24:33. > :24:37.allies. After the Paris att`ck on if we don't stand with France, when

:24:38. > :24:42.will we? What confidence can power allies in the Middle East h`ve if we

:24:43. > :24:46.sit on our hands now? From their contrast to play leading role in the

:24:47. > :24:50.coalition against Daesh? We cannot ignore that call any longer. And we

:24:51. > :24:56.have to restore their faith in us as an ally. Of course there ard

:24:57. > :25:04.concerns, and we in this hotse are right to raise them. Is this another

:25:05. > :25:07.rock? -- another Iraq. I am reassured we have learned ldssons

:25:08. > :25:10.and we should be careful th`t mistakes of the past not sm`rt

:25:11. > :25:14.characters and in the present. Air strikes will degrade them btt not

:25:15. > :25:19.defeat them, so what will h`ppen next? Gumboots on the ground will be

:25:20. > :25:26.needed and one group of terrorists must not be replaced by another As

:25:27. > :25:29.the member of Rutland has s`ys we may search in vain for cert`inty,

:25:30. > :25:33.however one thing I believe certain is that the coalition and Britain as

:25:34. > :25:38.as part of it must commit to seeing this through. I think my colleagues

:25:39. > :25:45.are keen to speak so I will press on. This action needs to be part of

:25:46. > :25:50.a serious and long-term comlitment, not only to Syria, but to the

:25:51. > :25:54.region. We must use our influence to promote stability and legithmate

:25:55. > :25:59.governments therefore there are many fragile states in the Middld East.

:26:00. > :26:04.Other time and again on my recent visit to the region, stabilhty and

:26:05. > :26:07.most any form is better than chaos. We need to be pragmatic bec`use

:26:08. > :26:13.democracies take generations to develop. This action is just one

:26:14. > :26:19.part of the battle we need to wait against Daesh and examine extremism

:26:20. > :26:24.was a busy battle we must w`it culturally, ideologically,

:26:25. > :26:27.economically, militarily, it is the battle of our generation and it s

:26:28. > :26:32.imperative we win it. And jtst wrapping up. We must commit and for

:26:33. > :26:40.that reason I will be supporting the motion tonight. I want to ghve

:26:41. > :26:47.Michael division by tribute to the RAF and the personnel, many of whom

:26:48. > :26:53.will have done their training in my constituency. There are part of my

:26:54. > :26:56.community. Many stay in that community and there is source of

:26:57. > :27:01.advice to be measured and not always, as the member for two nests,

:27:02. > :27:04.thinking as one, the thing that individuals and Iversen is to what

:27:05. > :27:09.many of them have had to sax over the course of a few weeks. ,- and I

:27:10. > :27:13.have listened. Else listens to be Prime Minister last Thursdax and

:27:14. > :27:18.agreed with lots of what he said but I do not think he had the coherent

:27:19. > :27:24.policy and plan for the acthon he is asking us to take tonight. Because I

:27:25. > :27:28.believe that it is flawed on the grounds in that we don't have

:27:29. > :27:31.sufficient ground forces. I do not come to that decision likelx. I

:27:32. > :27:36.listened to the debate when we were debating Iraq and I supportdd action

:27:37. > :27:39.then because the Prime Minister convinced us that the very reason we

:27:40. > :27:45.were taking that action is because there was solid troops on the ground

:27:46. > :27:50.and a solid Government. We do not have that in Syria. Those that say

:27:51. > :27:53.it is just the same, there hs an artificial boundary, should listen

:27:54. > :28:02.to what the Prime Minister respond and I will quote him and unlike you

:28:03. > :28:11.Mr Speaker, I do not have the memory that you once had when you were

:28:12. > :28:15.doing it because in the coltmn 2 57 on the 26th of September 2004 in an

:28:16. > :28:18.answer to the honourable gentleman to Gainsborough, who suggested that

:28:19. > :28:23.air strikes without ground forces air strikes without ground forces

:28:24. > :28:28.would be just gesture polithcs the Prime Minister said, reporthng

:28:29. > :28:32.directly," to be absolutely direct I'm not claiming that air strikes

:28:33. > :28:35.alone can roll this problem, what this problem requires is a

:28:36. > :28:43.comprehensive strategy. What the problem also is a well formdd Iraqi

:28:44. > :28:46.Government and a well formed Iraqi Armed Forces, because they hn the

:28:47. > :28:53.end will be the ones that whll defeat Isis on the ground." The lack

:28:54. > :28:59.of that in Syria makes it, H think, unfortunate and wrong for us to

:29:00. > :29:02.proceed with that action. Though for those reasons I will not support the

:29:03. > :29:06.motion tonight because I believe inconsistency and I believe the

:29:07. > :29:10.prime ministers not been consistent in his arguments of that period and

:29:11. > :29:14.what he is saying today. Yes, external factors have changdd, but

:29:15. > :29:18.the practical ability on thd ground has not changed. I would ask the

:29:19. > :29:24.Foreign Secretary question directly. I intervened on the Prime Mhnister

:29:25. > :29:29.early on and the Foreign Secretary is someone I believe can answer this

:29:30. > :29:35.question directly. My consthtuents' son was killed in accident `s

:29:36. > :29:38.trainee peer -- trainee pilot in 2012. His father has asked le today

:29:39. > :29:49.to ask the governments directly we'll all the aeroplanes, and I will

:29:50. > :29:53.quote his sentence "we'll all the aeroplanes now in Iraq, will they

:29:54. > :29:58.have CWS" the collision warning system. We'll all the tornadoes have

:29:59. > :30:02.that and will be typhoons h`ve them as well? Because it's important when

:30:03. > :30:08.we are sending people to war that they have the correct kit. We have

:30:09. > :30:11.argued that for years. I want to listen to the Prime Minister to come

:30:12. > :30:15.up with something of a UN rdsolution that he is moving towards, that will

:30:16. > :30:20.give chapter seven status and to deal with it. That is not there

:30:21. > :30:26.today. For that reason, I don't think there is a carpenter 's

:30:27. > :30:29.strategy. I voted for Libya, I'm not a plastic -- pacifist, I did not

:30:30. > :30:34.vote in a rock because I didn't think the case was made and I have

:30:35. > :30:43.to say this, it was my colldague, Peter Guilfoyle, who put th`t motion

:30:44. > :30:47.and he is no woolly liberal. -- I don't think there is a copyrighted

:30:48. > :30:51.strategy. Today in his response to the Prime Minister of the Ldader of

:30:52. > :30:58.the Opposition quoted from @bdulaziz Al mashie, quoted part of hhs e mail

:30:59. > :31:05.but I would like to go on and read some of the rest of it. "We have

:31:06. > :31:09.driven Isis out of our towns before it is becoming impossible to do so

:31:10. > :31:14.while we are facing the reldntless bombardment of the Assad regime and

:31:15. > :31:22.Russia. The territory that Hsis controls is crucial to their

:31:23. > :31:25.growth, their capture -- capture of resources and their ability to

:31:26. > :31:32.conduct terror attacks abro`d. We need help in order to keep them out

:31:33. > :31:38.of our towns. The Syrian regime has killed seven times more civhlians

:31:39. > :31:44.than Isis this year. No, it is not as Julian Lewis says, that @ssad is

:31:45. > :31:47.the lesser of two evils. Assad and the Russian air strikes havd been

:31:48. > :31:56.focused on our hospitals, Arous schools and homes and much less so

:31:57. > :32:02.on Isis asset. As their bombardments continue, our towns are weakened,

:32:03. > :32:08.Isis comes in to fill the void and amidst economic collapse provides

:32:09. > :32:14.services and the promise of steady salaries beefing up their

:32:15. > :32:19.recruitment and their hall on the land. Make no mistake, however,

:32:20. > :32:28.Syrians are resisting. Just last week in my own home town, women were

:32:29. > :32:32.kidnapped and an activist w`s tortured to death and protesters

:32:33. > :32:40.were shot for trying to keep Isis out. These people deserve your

:32:41. > :32:49.support, and supporting thel is the all-new way to defeat Isis. -- is

:32:50. > :32:57.the only way. I was not present in the Parliament that refused to take

:32:58. > :33:01.action against Assad and his regime, but as Edmund Burke said, the only

:33:02. > :33:10.thing that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to

:33:11. > :33:14.war by. -- to walk by. This is not an easy decision but my dechsion to

:33:15. > :33:20.support the motion is based on a clear plan agreed in the Vidnna

:33:21. > :33:25.process, the support from the UN to tackle the barbaric operations of

:33:26. > :33:34.Daesh and the commitment of the UK to action which is focused on

:33:35. > :33:38.diplomatic humanitarian milhtary and national security issues. I have

:33:39. > :33:43.read every e-mail from my constituents on this matter and a

:33:44. > :33:47.great Hall heartedly with the speeches made by the honour`ble

:33:48. > :33:55.member for Tonbridge and Malling and also the honourable member for Derby

:33:56. > :34:01.South. I have asked myself this question. If an attack happdned on

:34:02. > :34:05.Chester, masterminded from Raqqa, and my constituents were catght up

:34:06. > :34:10.in such an attack and I had voted no to further intervention in Syria,

:34:11. > :34:14.would I have acted in their best interests or in the interests of the

:34:15. > :34:19.civilian populations that are under the devastating rule of Daesh? I

:34:20. > :34:22.believe the answer to that puestion is no, and I will be voting with the

:34:23. > :34:40.Government tonight. Roger Godseth. Everybody agrees that

:34:41. > :34:45.Daesh is a threat to us all, our way of life, our liberties, and it has

:34:46. > :34:50.to be destroyed. However, I'm not convinced that dropping mord bombs

:34:51. > :34:54.on Syria is going to add anxthing to the defeat of this organisation

:34:55. > :35:00.There were already a lot of bombs being dropped by Russia, Amdrica and

:35:01. > :35:04.France. Apart from not destroying Daesh, it has created terror amongst

:35:05. > :35:08.the population and resulted in vast displacement of the Syrian

:35:09. > :35:15.population. This in turn is causing huge problems for European

:35:16. > :35:20.governments trying to cope with the flood of refugees. Of coursd we in

:35:21. > :35:23.this country should support France and we should give support,

:35:24. > :35:33.solidarity in various other ways. The member and others have outlined

:35:34. > :35:37.other ways we can assist. Btt of course we should give logistical,

:35:38. > :35:45.intelligent special forces support to the Kurds and the elements of the

:35:46. > :35:50.Free Syrian army who are dohng the fighting on the ground becatse it is

:35:51. > :35:53.only ground forces and Arab ground forces which will eventuallx bring

:35:54. > :36:01.about the displacement and defeat of Daesh in Syria. The PM has said that

:36:02. > :36:08.there are 70,000 Syrians re`dy to fight and I take him at his word,

:36:09. > :36:12.but we shall have to see. However, I suspect that this assertion will

:36:13. > :36:18.come back to haunt him in the same way that the assertion made by a

:36:19. > :36:22.predecessor at the very samd dispatch box that the UK was only 45

:36:23. > :36:29.minutes away from a nuclear or chemical attack by Saddam Htssein

:36:30. > :36:35.has continued to strengthen the legacy of this former PM. Mr

:36:36. > :36:39.Speaker, we can also share with the French and our allies our expertise

:36:40. > :36:42.in monitoring and breaking tp terrorist cells because we have a

:36:43. > :36:50.long experience of doing thhs in the UK. Furthermore, I believe we should

:36:51. > :36:55.go to the UN and seek support for safe havens to be created whthin

:36:56. > :36:58.Syria. I believe that this would be within our interests and thd

:36:59. > :37:03.interests of other European countries and it would also be

:37:04. > :37:09.humanitarian in helping not to force the population out of Syria. But Mr

:37:10. > :37:12.Speaker, there has been one voice amongst the many that have been

:37:13. > :37:20.raised today that has not bden heard. And that is from somdbody who

:37:21. > :37:27.has actually experienced Dadsh and been a hostage of that organisation.

:37:28. > :37:33.I referred to the French jotrnalist Nicolas Henin. In a recent `rticle

:37:34. > :37:40.he wrote, "I know for sure that our pain, our Greek, our hopes `nd lives

:37:41. > :37:44.do not touch them. Theirs is a world apart. Central to their worldview is

:37:45. > :37:51.a belief that communities c`nnot live together with Muslims. But he

:37:52. > :37:56.then goes on to say they cale to Paris with Kalashnikov is claiming

:37:57. > :38:00.that they wanted to stop thd bombing but knowing only too well that the

:38:01. > :38:08.attack would force us to intensify these counter-productive attacks. He

:38:09. > :38:16.ends by saying they expect to be bombed. What they fear is unity Mr

:38:17. > :38:18.Speaker, we must have unity and purpose in seeking out and

:38:19. > :38:23.destroying Daesh. The Prime Minister will have his majority tonight and

:38:24. > :38:30.he will win the vote, but I don t believe he has won the argulent Mr

:38:31. > :38:39.Richard Drax. First of all, I'd pay tribute to the

:38:40. > :38:48.RAF who are already flying over Iraq. First of all I shall puote Mr

:38:49. > :38:52.Winston Churchill. " Never dver leave that any war will be dasy Or

:38:53. > :39:00.that anyone who embarks on the strange voyage can deal with what

:39:01. > :39:05.they Inc counter. He is no longer the master policy but a slave of

:39:06. > :39:08.uncontrollable events. It is a cautionary observation and one that

:39:09. > :39:12.runs through all the speechds I have heard tonight. The government's

:39:13. > :39:19.laudable aim is to safeguard the peoples of this great nation, to

:39:20. > :39:26.degrade Daesh. I did not sax destroying Daesh because bolbing

:39:27. > :39:39.alone will not achieve this. So what does success look like? There is no

:39:40. > :39:44.attitude for a ground assault, not least due to the ghosts of the

:39:45. > :39:50.past. If we truly intend to tackle this problem, destroy Daesh and

:39:51. > :39:55.follow through on UN resolution 2249, a ground offensive is the only

:39:56. > :39:59.practical and logical and that bombing will degrade Daesh, kill

:40:00. > :40:03.their operatives and give hdart to those fighting this organis`tion on

:40:04. > :40:07.the ground, that it will not destroy them. The government has made clear

:40:08. > :40:12.it has no wish to put boots on the ground, which today's motion

:40:13. > :40:16.specifically excludes. But H suspect one consequence of a bombing

:40:17. > :40:20.campaign is that that is ex`ctly where it might lead. We are a major

:40:21. > :40:27.player and must play a promhnent role, standing up for values that

:40:28. > :40:30.are envied across the globe. Islamic fundamentalism is regrettably our

:40:31. > :40:35.generation's scourge and is not going to dissipate in the short

:40:36. > :40:41.term. Could this be our 30 xear war? The current threat is real and

:40:42. > :40:45.present and can and must be fought. So let's not discard the idda of

:40:46. > :40:53.boots on the ground, whoever is they may be. But explore that option in

:40:54. > :40:58.eventuality. As Churchill indicated, conflict subject us to forcds

:40:59. > :41:03.outside our control. Subseqtently, every eventuality needs to be

:41:04. > :41:09.examined. Finally, bombing `lone will not solve this vexed qtestion,

:41:10. > :41:12.which has divided the house and will do so later. But it will delonstrate

:41:13. > :41:19.to the world that we will ddfend our island, her people, stand bx our

:41:20. > :41:27.allies and meet our international obligations. As I said on Monday

:41:28. > :41:33.night, this house, in this house, even ill does thrive when good men

:41:34. > :41:37.and women do nothing. -- evhl does thrive. Tonight I shall go hnto the

:41:38. > :41:41.lobby with the government and our allies and the thousands of innocent

:41:42. > :41:47.victims looking to us for hdlp. Order. I'm sorry to say that a

:41:48. > :41:52.three-minute limit on backbdnch speeches will now have to apply Mr

:41:53. > :42:02.Douglas Chapman. Thank you Lr Speaker. Despite many of thd good

:42:03. > :42:06.speeches we have heard and the measured speeches we have hdard

:42:07. > :42:09.today, in the background thd drums of war are still beating. I know

:42:10. > :42:15.that that doesn't always make for good and rational decision-laking.

:42:16. > :42:19.We don't disagree that Daesh are a wicked and evil group who mtst be

:42:20. > :42:26.defeated. I am not a pacifist, I do not doubt that military powdr may at

:42:27. > :42:29.some point play a part in their defeat. But I am utterly unconvinced

:42:30. > :42:36.by the case that the Prime Linister has made here today. Those speaking

:42:37. > :42:39.in favour seem to have thred main arguments for the necessity of

:42:40. > :42:44.British action in Syria. Firstly that we should do so much to help

:42:45. > :42:50.our allies. Secondly that the UK has special capabilities vital to the

:42:51. > :42:55.completion of coalition aims and lastly that... I doubt that such

:42:56. > :42:58.arguments are seductive but I would caution the government and `sk

:42:59. > :43:03.itself whether this bombing campaign brings as any closer to a solution

:43:04. > :43:09.of stability in the region. The most emotive argument is one that many of

:43:10. > :43:14.our allies, particularly Fr`nce which have endured the most horrific

:43:15. > :43:21.attacks that struck at the heart of the city a fortnight ago. I was the

:43:22. > :43:25.first MP to sign the book of condolence for the French consulate

:43:26. > :43:30.in Edinburgh, so I and my SNP colleagues beside me here t`ke our

:43:31. > :43:34.duties to France and indeed our other Nato partners extremely

:43:35. > :43:38.seriously. We have a determhnation to go after the financiers,

:43:39. > :43:42.planners, enable is that terror attack and that will never cease. It

:43:43. > :43:47.just so happens that I think bombing Syria does not bring justicd any

:43:48. > :43:50.closer. The Prime Minister, I believe, has made a terribld mistake

:43:51. > :43:58.in forcing the issue through the house, despite the extreme tnease at

:43:59. > :44:03.many in this place... Why h`s he not focused instead on many of the other

:44:04. > :44:07.ways the UK could help Syri` militarily? UK bases in Cyprus have

:44:08. > :44:12.already been offered. UK support forces in the area and intelligence

:44:13. > :44:22.sharing is increased. It is widely accepted that the UK... The Prime

:44:23. > :44:26.Minister is saying there is a fight somewhere, why is Britain not in it?

:44:27. > :44:35.There's so much more we could do to help our allies. Churchill once said

:44:36. > :44:38.in the face of war that Georgia Hall was better than world war.

:44:39. > :44:53.It is not bomb bomb bomb. Jtst to say that we will be supporthng the M

:44:54. > :44:57.and from the SNP. Thank you very much.

:44:58. > :45:04.Thank you, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker, on three occasions I left mx family

:45:05. > :45:07.and boarded a plane bound for Afghanistan or Iraq. As the plane

:45:08. > :45:11.went through the clouds, I took what could have been my final look out of

:45:12. > :45:14.the window at this country `nd when you do that, you cannot help wonder

:45:15. > :45:19.whether the people who have stood in this place have made the right

:45:20. > :45:25.decision, whether the nation is with you, whether what you're gohng to do

:45:26. > :45:29.is worthwhile. Today I rise to contribute to that decision,making

:45:30. > :45:33.process and I can tell the house that this responsibility wehghs

:45:34. > :45:38.heavy on my shoulders. Mr Speaker, I am clear that this motion should be

:45:39. > :45:42.supported. It clearly states that the continuation of air strhkes into

:45:43. > :45:46.Syria is just one part of the solution required to defeat Daesh

:45:47. > :45:52.and to secure a peace both there and in Iraq. Bombing, diplomacy, aid and

:45:53. > :45:58.countering radicalisation at home and abroad are not mutually

:45:59. > :46:00.exclusive. Indeed, in Iraq, Afghanistan and Libya, we h`ve

:46:01. > :46:08.surely seen that they are utterly interdependent. Today we must decide

:46:09. > :46:13.on military action. Mr Speaker I would like to briefly speak on four

:46:14. > :46:17.themes in support of that. Firstly, we are being asked to join `

:46:18. > :46:22.coalition. A coalition of some of our closest allies and some of our

:46:23. > :46:28.most important allies in thd region. We must answer their call. Difficult

:46:29. > :46:32.targets present themselves only fleetingly, and prosecuting those

:46:33. > :46:37.targets requires a cover constantly with highly skilled pilots `nd

:46:38. > :46:45.deadly accurate munitions. Our RAF offers that. Thirdly, the ndcessity

:46:46. > :46:48.of indigenous ground manoeuvre. In Basra, my battle group was fighting

:46:49. > :46:53.an insurgency that existed `lmost entirely just because we were there.

:46:54. > :47:04.The 70,000 Syrians and 20,000 Kurds under arms should and could become a

:47:05. > :47:07.cohesive force. That warming campaign will by the time for them

:47:08. > :47:11.to be manoeuvred into the place they need so that we can coordin`te their

:47:12. > :47:16.efforts in support of those air strikes. It is important to note of

:47:17. > :47:19.course that those air strikds do degrade Daesh in the meantile. They

:47:20. > :47:26.have a military effect of their own. That is why minor -- my fin`l point

:47:27. > :47:29.is that it is clear the house agreed on the aims we are seeking to

:47:30. > :47:34.achieve. It's clear that most of us agree on the means we are sdeking to

:47:35. > :47:38.achieve them, diplomatic, humanitarian and military. The

:47:39. > :47:41.disagreement is when and in what order. I say from personal

:47:42. > :47:48.experience that when trying to buy time in a combat zone, you need to

:47:49. > :47:52.suppress the enemy, keep thdir head down and deny them any action of

:47:53. > :47:56.their own. The timing is never right but we must get on with this, that

:47:57. > :48:01.is what we are required to do to help the Syrian people. Mr Speaker,

:48:02. > :48:08.I think I speak for the whole house when I remarked on our ador`tion for

:48:09. > :48:13.you today! I pay tribute to the contributions of my friends for

:48:14. > :48:17.Derby South and Hull West. H agree with the points they have m`de. We

:48:18. > :48:21.come to this house to choosd, Mr Speaker. Yesterday decide, xesterday

:48:22. > :48:26.expressed our anger at times but not to commentator. Our purpose of our

:48:27. > :48:32.debate is not entertainment, its education. It's the education we

:48:33. > :48:36.need to choose. The choice today is not on a brand-new strategy, it s a

:48:37. > :48:40.relatively narrow choice between a motion that extends our involvement

:48:41. > :48:44.in an existing battle or a vote for the status quo.

:48:45. > :48:54.It is not the choice -- is not the choice, it is a choice that takes

:48:55. > :48:57.risks, involves risks. The risk of doing something has to be b`lanced

:48:58. > :49:03.with the choice involved in doing nothing, which equally carrhes

:49:04. > :49:07.problems for the country and indeed for the world.

:49:08. > :49:15.Thank you. I couldn't have put it better. Not for the first thme, I

:49:16. > :49:18.have to confess I'm angry whth the Government. I'm angry with them

:49:19. > :49:21.because I believe they have turned their back on vulnerable fudgess

:49:22. > :49:29.from the conflict in Syria to whom we should have held out our hands.

:49:30. > :49:32.20,000 refugees by 2020 is too slow. The Government could have

:49:33. > :49:35.demonstrated to the world what it has meant to be British. Thdy

:49:36. > :49:39.haven't done enough. I know we must put party politics to one shde but

:49:40. > :49:44.it is hard when there is a Prime Minister who says on the ond hand do

:49:45. > :49:48.our bit, and on the other h`nd does his part too late. What reldvance

:49:49. > :49:51.does that have to our choicd today? The answer is trust and comlitment.

:49:52. > :49:55.If I vote for air strikes today I need to believe that the Prhme

:49:56. > :49:59.Minister will stand beside those in the world who need him tomorrow

:50:00. > :50:03.Part of the justification for the strikes is to show our commhtment to

:50:04. > :50:07.the coalition against Daesh, that we are truly part of the fight. But if

:50:08. > :50:10.the Prime Minister wants my support, Mr Speaker, I want to see hhs

:50:11. > :50:16.commitment to the bigger fight ahead of us. The biggest recruiting

:50:17. > :50:20.Sergeant for vile extremism is want. It's the dissatisfaction with the

:50:21. > :50:23.chance the world is offering you, whether in the back streets of

:50:24. > :50:27.Britain or in the cities of Africa and the Middle East where young

:50:28. > :50:31.people find that the powerftl in our world forget them far too qtickly.

:50:32. > :50:37.It is pervasive want that is fertile ground for the blame and resentment

:50:38. > :50:40.that extremists cultivate. Now, I believe, Mr Speaker, that wd are

:50:41. > :50:43.right to be sceptical of our own compassities but I don't thhnk we

:50:44. > :50:47.should be sceptical of the Syrian people. I think rather we should

:50:48. > :50:51.offer them refuge now and otr backing tomorrow. Whatever choice we

:50:52. > :50:56.all make, Mr Speaker, we have to live with it. I will have to face my

:50:57. > :51:02.constituents and explain myself to them with the decision I take. But

:51:03. > :51:06.that is as absolutely nothing in comparison to what the Syri`n people

:51:07. > :51:11.have faced and too much in the past five years, Mr Speaker, I think we

:51:12. > :51:15.have seen those in need and we have turned away and we must not do that

:51:16. > :51:19.now. I might not trust the Prime Minister that much, Mr Speaker, but

:51:20. > :51:23.in the end, the solution to that mistrust is in my hands. If I vote

:51:24. > :51:28.for his motion today, I want him to know that I will be here evdry week

:51:29. > :51:32.holding him to account. If H do not believe he has lived up to the trust

:51:33. > :51:36.of the British people, we h`ve backbench motions now, Mr Speaker

:51:37. > :51:40.and I will waste no moment hn using them. Any support I give to the

:51:41. > :51:46.Prime Minister is condition`l and we will return to this question again

:51:47. > :51:51.and again. As my right honotrable friend said so well - if our job is

:51:52. > :51:57.to work for peace, Mr Speakdr, then we will do it with scrutiny and we

:51:58. > :52:01.will scrutinise the Vienna process to make sure it happens. We vote

:52:02. > :52:05.today just on one tactic in this greater struggle. I see the limits

:52:06. > :52:09.in the choice in front of us. My party, the Labour Party has a bigger

:52:10. > :52:17.task and it is one that I'll never just leave to the Prime Minhster.

:52:18. > :52:21.The extremism we face today comes -- the end of extremism comes with a

:52:22. > :52:25.just and fair society. We w`ste not a moment.

:52:26. > :52:29.The first duty of a Governmdnt is to protect its citizens and its

:52:30. > :52:33.country. Whether or not to tse military force is often one of the

:52:34. > :52:36.most significant and toughest decisions for any government and

:52:37. > :52:41.indeed we as individual MPs will take. And especially so, for myself,

:52:42. > :52:47.as a new member of this place. Much of what I have to say has already

:52:48. > :52:50.been said with far greater dloquence from honourable and learned friends

:52:51. > :52:54.and members of this Chamber. However, this is a serious latter we

:52:55. > :53:00.are debating here today and one which my constituents take `n

:53:01. > :53:07.interest in, too. In recent months and weeks we have been watch an

:53:08. > :53:11.already fragile and serious situation in Syria further

:53:12. > :53:15.deteriorate. We have listendd to the debates in the chamber and been able

:53:16. > :53:19.to ask questions, rightly so. We are in agreement, we are all appalled by

:53:20. > :53:23.the crimes Isil commit dailx against Syrian civilians. We can't fail to

:53:24. > :53:26.be deeply moved by the plight of millions of Syrian refugees, forced

:53:27. > :53:31.to flee their homes for safdty and the many more that are displaced in

:53:32. > :53:35.their own country. And events in Paris have brought the seriousness

:53:36. > :53:41.of this yet closer to home. As we have heard, and as we see, this is a

:53:42. > :53:50.complex situation, needing ` complex and a comprehensive responsd. Mr Mr

:53:51. > :53:58.Speaker, the UK through difficult I had is providing humanitari`n air in

:53:59. > :54:02.the region -- Dfid. I have been to an area and Turkey

:54:03. > :54:06.and saw the work being done. A political situation is also required

:54:07. > :54:09.and I welcome news that this process is beginning with the Vienn` talks.

:54:10. > :54:14.Working towards transitional government will be a key stdp

:54:15. > :54:17.towards long-term peace and reconciliation and into est`blishing

:54:18. > :54:21.democracy. But there comes ` point, Mr speaker, when humanitari`n,

:54:22. > :54:26.political and diplomatic responses alone are no longer UN as a direct

:54:27. > :54:29.threat posed by Isil to the UK increases, so, too, does our

:54:30. > :54:34.responsibility to protect otr country and our citizens. Isil is

:54:35. > :54:40.extreme and must be isolated. We need military action, not inaction.

:54:41. > :54:42.What message would it send out if, as the Prime Minister said, we

:54:43. > :54:47.subcontracted our responsibhlities to others? It is time to st`nd by

:54:48. > :54:51.and with our allies. It is not logical for our planes to h`ve to

:54:52. > :54:55.stop at the Iraqi bored we `re Syria. Isil does not recognhse the

:54:56. > :55:00.border. They do not stop here. Their HQ is not in Iraq, it is in Raqqa.

:55:01. > :55:04.Our RAF is already in the rdgion operating precision air strhkes now.

:55:05. > :55:07.I believe British action can and will make a difference. And I will

:55:08. > :55:13.therefore be supporting the Government this evening.

:55:14. > :55:17.THE SPEAKER: Mr Liam Byrne. It is a pleasure to follow the

:55:18. > :55:21.honourable lady. She is right it is a serious debate. One I considered

:55:22. > :55:25.too and I'm sorry I come to a different conclusion to her. I speak

:55:26. > :55:28.against the motion with a great sense of frustration. I'm frustrated

:55:29. > :55:32.because I agree with the Prhme Minister that we are at war, we are

:55:33. > :55:36.under attack. We now face an enemy like an enemy we have never faced

:55:37. > :55:40.before. We are fighting agahnst shadowing netted works and nub louse

:55:41. > :55:44.states. Today's debate is about the theatre of Syria but we all know

:55:45. > :55:49.that there are other theeterings. We know that there is conflict that we

:55:50. > :55:53.may need to come to in Yemen, in the border of Afghanistan and b`ck Stan

:55:54. > :55:57.and in other regions in Libxa and parts of Nigeria. The enemy we are

:55:58. > :56:03.debating tonight is Daesh btt we all know there are other enemies. We

:56:04. > :56:06.know there are of Al-Qaeda still present somewhere around Afghanistan

:56:07. > :56:12.and Pakistan. We know there is Al-Qaeda in the Arabian penhnsula.

:56:13. > :56:17.We know there there is the Corizan group against us and groups in Iraq

:56:18. > :56:23.and their allies. So what this says to us, Mr Speaker is this is going

:56:24. > :56:27.to be a long march. As my honourable friend from Hull Green said earlier.

:56:28. > :56:31.What is critical is we maintain solidarity and unity of purpose at

:56:32. > :56:35.home for what is going to bd a very long fight. That's why, we cannot

:56:36. > :56:39.afford in this House, to put forward strategies which we think are high

:56:40. > :56:43.risk, which we think carry too great a Ricks of failure and that is what

:56:44. > :56:46.the Government's strategy does, I'm afraid, this afternoon and this

:56:47. > :56:50.evening. -- a risk of failure T carries too great a risk of failure.

:56:51. > :56:55.I was grateful to see the Prime Minister put such emphasis on how

:56:56. > :56:58.this is a joint struggle for both Western and Islamic freedom. You can

:56:59. > :57:02.see that in the refugee camps of northern Iraq. We know that Daesh

:57:03. > :57:07.has acquired the capability to plan attacks here in Europe. But that's

:57:08. > :57:10.why what I wanted to see today was sustained short-term action to take

:57:11. > :57:14.out that external planning capability of Isis, whether it

:57:15. > :57:17.needed air cover or boots on the ground. But in the longer-tdrm, like

:57:18. > :57:21.the Chair of the Defence Select Committee, I want to see an

:57:22. > :57:26.overwhelming coalition brought to bear to smash Daesh into history and

:57:27. > :57:32.that I'm afraid needs Vienn` first and not Vienna second. Hear, hear We

:57:33. > :57:36.know we dare not risk defeat that. Would hand our enemies a propaganda

:57:37. > :57:39.victory which we will hear `bout for years to come but victory mdans

:57:40. > :57:43.bringing together air cover, ground forces and politics, too. And

:57:44. > :57:47.heavens above, if we can't sustain that combination to take back Mosul,

:57:48. > :57:55.then how on earth are we gohng it take Bacharach ka in Syria. That's

:57:56. > :57:59.why I was disappointed, Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister was not `ble to

:58:00. > :58:06.specify who the ground forcds that will help us take back Raqq`.

:58:07. > :58:10.In Iraq there are ground forces in Syria, quite frankly there `re not.

:58:11. > :58:19.I don't want a half-hearted fight. I want a fall-on fight. We didn't have

:58:20. > :58:22.a plan for that for the Govdrnment. I considered this carefully and

:58:23. > :58:27.considered the views of members including the members of my area and

:58:28. > :58:30.my constituents, whatever shde of the debate they find themselves

:58:31. > :58:33.Having listened to the argulent I rise to support the motion. I

:58:34. > :58:39.believe it is absolutely imperative that Britain and her allies work

:58:40. > :58:42.together to eliminate the so-called Islamic State, a group whosd

:58:43. > :58:46.continued existence is an affront to humane. A group responsible for

:58:47. > :58:54.unparalleled brutality over recent years. A group that loathes freedom

:58:55. > :58:59.and democracy. And, despises every value we hold dear. At around the

:59:00. > :59:04.turn of the 5th century, St Augustin laid out his preconditions for a

:59:05. > :59:11.just war. Among them, a deshre for peace. And as a final decishon, when

:59:12. > :59:16.all other means have failed. I believe that his words remahn

:59:17. > :59:19.pertinent in the 21st century. As negotiating with the so-called

:59:20. > :59:26.Islamic State would be both impossible and abhorrent. Ftrther, I

:59:27. > :59:31.am glad that this motion proposes to target the so-called Islamic State

:59:32. > :59:36.exclusively. For it is this group of terrorists that have attackdd us and

:59:37. > :59:42.pose our people danger. Thex hate us for who we are, not for what we do.

:59:43. > :59:47.They must be stopped. Now while we might not approve of the actions

:59:48. > :59:51.undertaken by the Assad reghme, our overwhelming priority must be to

:59:52. > :59:57.protect the United Kingdom `nd support our allies. To do this, we

:59:58. > :00:01.must stabilise Syria, avoidhng the creation of further ungoverned

:00:02. > :00:07.spaces, in which terrorism will thrive. Had this motion mandated a

:00:08. > :00:11.complete overthrow of the Sxrian regime by force, leading to the

:00:12. > :00:15.destruction of the apparatus of government, I would not, in all

:00:16. > :00:19.conscience, have been able to support it. For we would not have

:00:20. > :00:23.learned the lessons from past conflicts. We would not be helping

:00:24. > :00:28.to stabilise Syria and we would not be making Britain safer. In this

:00:29. > :00:33.motion, however, I believe we have, we are and we will.

:00:34. > :00:40.Hear, hear. Natalie McGarry.

:00:41. > :00:46.Thank you Mr Speaker. I too admire your fortitude for sitting hn the

:00:47. > :00:50.care for so long. -- in the chair. I visited North eastern Syria for

:00:51. > :00:55.eight days in October to spdak to people, the Commander of thd YPJ,

:00:56. > :01:02.the YPG that are fightk Daesh directly on the front line there. --

:01:03. > :01:04.fighting. And also o to spe`k to the leaders of the Democratic

:01:05. > :01:07.Non-confederationism about the democratic revolution happening in

:01:08. > :01:12.that part of the world. The Kurds I met were very, very clear, that they

:01:13. > :01:17.were working to protect are`s and to retake areas taken by Daesh, like

:01:18. > :01:20.Kabani and they are limiting their actions to where the Kurdish

:01:21. > :01:26.population lie. They are not expansionists. And if they `re to be

:01:27. > :01:30.considered as part of the alleged 70,000 moderate ground forcds put

:01:31. > :01:35.forward by the Government their geographic limitation must give us

:01:36. > :01:39.all pause for thought. What they told me is they want a democratic

:01:40. > :01:48.solution to the ongoing civhl war in the first instance. Daesh insists

:01:49. > :01:56.and thrives in the vacuum and chaos of uprising and the continuhng

:01:57. > :02:00.instability of Syria lays in a multi-factioned, multi-facetted ..

:02:01. > :02:05.Would my honourable member give way. Many thanks. Would she shard my

:02:06. > :02:08.concerns he that the allies involved would have particular concerns over

:02:09. > :02:13.the outcould. Syria they wish to see and we would be adding to the chaos

:02:14. > :02:17.and destruction of Syria? Hdar, hear. Thank you to my honourable

:02:18. > :02:21.friend for her point. I will come to that. I completely agree. Sxria will

:02:22. > :02:25.continue to be unstable unthl the world realises the only solttion is

:02:26. > :02:30.democracy. When will the UK understand that shoot first and

:02:31. > :02:36.repent later is the wrong strategy? Indeed, Harry Patch the last Tommy

:02:37. > :02:41.who died in 2009 wrote that. "All these lives ended for a word that

:02:42. > :02:46.finished over a table -- for a war." What sense is that. The Prile

:02:47. > :02:57.Minister refers to allies lhke the French, rush yances, Turks `nd Kurds

:02:58. > :03:06.but the Kurds recently ex-- Turks recently shot down and aeroplane.

:03:07. > :03:11.And they are accused of enclosing the trade border, the only safe

:03:12. > :03:14.transport roof from the KRG. It is making it harder for the Kurds to

:03:15. > :03:18.tackle Daesh. The Russians were accused by the Syrians whilst I was

:03:19. > :03:26.there of bombing moderate opposition to Assad. Meanwhile, I saw Hezbollah

:03:27. > :03:31.fighters in the Kurd controlled streets. There are already too many

:03:32. > :03:36.agents in this conflict. Thd French, Americans, Russians, Israel, Turkey

:03:37. > :03:39.and more, are already destroying and deploying air strikes in Syria with

:03:40. > :03:44.no strategy plans and littld success. How do we proceed when we

:03:45. > :03:48.are not even sure who our allies are, and who they are allies too?

:03:49. > :03:53.Why would the UK consider rdpeating the same mistakes would havd a

:03:54. > :03:58.different conclusion? The UK needs to support the creation of ` safe,

:03:59. > :04:02.no-bomb-zone within Syria in the fist instance to protect thd ground

:04:03. > :04:06.troops, such as they are, who are tackling Assad and Daesh and to

:04:07. > :04:13.protect internal refugees in Syria. And we have to support Vienna and a

:04:14. > :04:17.more comprehensive strategy at a democratic solution to the civil

:04:18. > :04:22.war. And key to defeating D`esh is to stop the money flow. Considering

:04:23. > :04:24.to some impressions they ard strategic in how they operate,

:04:25. > :04:26.closing supply routes and controlling the infrastructtre.

:04:27. > :04:30.There is serious money that props this up. Where is it coming from?

:04:31. > :04:35.Who supplies the arms, who hs purchasing the oil? Cutting the fund

:04:36. > :04:42.will kill Daesh more effectddive than gesture air strikes.

:04:43. > :04:52.The people that I spoke to hn serious -- in Syria stayed hn Syria

:04:53. > :04:59.because they wanted to fight Daesh. We should treat them better than

:05:00. > :05:03.just the two sticks. None of us come like lead to the decision wd make

:05:04. > :05:10.today. But one thing I'm sure of is that at the forefront of all of our

:05:11. > :05:14.minds is the safety and sectrity of every one of our constituents. In

:05:15. > :05:18.coming to my decision today I have read all of my constituents's

:05:19. > :05:21.letters and e-mails. I have also asked myself a number of

:05:22. > :05:26.time-honoured questions as to whether a conflict is just. Could

:05:27. > :05:33.this military action promotd a just cause? Are our intentions rhght Is

:05:34. > :05:37.it a last resort? Is there ` possibility of success? Is the

:05:38. > :05:43.action proportionate? Time prohibits me from a detailed response but may

:05:44. > :05:47.I say this? In an ideal world no right thinking person would advocate

:05:48. > :05:53.military action. But we don't live in an ideal world, far from it. We

:05:54. > :05:58.and our constituents live whth the very real, present and vicious

:05:59. > :06:01.threat of the ideology of Isil, whose ultimate aim is nothing less

:06:02. > :06:09.than to destroy civilised society as we know it. This motion asks for

:06:10. > :06:14.authority for military action, air strikes exclusively against Isil in

:06:15. > :06:20.Syria to defend the UK and to prevent terrorist acts by Isil. Can

:06:21. > :06:25.anyone doubt this is a just cause? And then again, do we have right

:06:26. > :06:29.intentions? Just as the UK hs compassionately motivated in seeking

:06:30. > :06:38.humanitarian efforts ins and to support them, supporting refugee

:06:39. > :06:41.camps in Lebanon, welcoming refugees here, I believed that support for

:06:42. > :06:46.this motion in many parts of this house is born out of the sale

:06:47. > :06:49.compassion for the suffering Syrian people. Children raped, Chrhstians

:06:50. > :06:57.tortured, aid workers beheaded, whole families given three choices

:06:58. > :07:05.by Isil, submit, leave or dhe. If our goal for them is stabilhsation

:07:06. > :07:09.and prevention from an evil, barbaric oppressor which threatens

:07:10. > :07:14.not only there but our peacdful security then I believe we have

:07:15. > :07:19.right intentions. Then therd is legitimate authority, do we have

:07:20. > :07:30.this? Indeed, clearly if thhs house supports our Government's motion and

:07:31. > :07:34.notes that we have a legal basis... Will she join me in welcoming the

:07:35. > :07:37.unanimous nature of this security council resolution so that there can

:07:38. > :07:41.be no question the Russians and the Chinese are with us and banning

:07:42. > :07:49.against this dreaded threat? I do indeed. The wider international

:07:50. > :07:51.community says that Isil constitutes an unprecedented threat to

:07:52. > :08:00.international peace and sectrity and calls on states to take all

:08:01. > :08:07.necessary measures to prevent threats by Isil. And then, hs it a

:08:08. > :08:13.last resort? Ongoing diplom`tic humanitarian political ende`vours

:08:14. > :08:18.are continuing. But air strhkes whilst not in themselves enough

:08:19. > :08:23.will, I believe, now be an dssential component if we are to degr`de and

:08:24. > :08:27.defeat this terrible force. Then what of the probability of success?

:08:28. > :08:32.The hardest question of all. There can be no guarantees, we've been

:08:33. > :08:43.told that. But as a probability yes. I believe in terms of weakening

:08:44. > :08:47.Isil's capability to attack our citizens here, reducing its training

:08:48. > :08:52.bases, in terms of attacking Isil's control centres in Raqqa and

:08:53. > :08:56.elsewhere from which jihadists are sent out to other lands, in terms of

:08:57. > :09:00.reducing the spread of their terrible ideology, I believd there

:09:01. > :09:03.is a probability of success. In considering all of this, I have

:09:04. > :09:08.concluded in good consciencd and good faith that to support the

:09:09. > :09:15.Government's motion tonight and that the action proposed is both right

:09:16. > :09:17.and just. We have heard somd excellent and thoughtful spdeches

:09:18. > :09:20.today. There are some big issues in the debate but I want to totch on

:09:21. > :09:28.one issue that many honourable and right honourable members rahsed

:09:29. > :09:37.earlier. The Prime Minister's use of the term terrorist sympathisers

:09:38. > :09:42.Isil Daesh struck and deeplx hurt the Eccles community through the

:09:43. > :09:46.savage murder of my constittent Alan Henning. That community camd

:09:47. > :09:52.together, Muslims and Christians, to mourn our loss and to celebrate the

:09:53. > :09:57.life of our local hero. If H choose to vote against air strikes in Syria

:09:58. > :10:01.today, as I will do, it will be deeply offensive to me and that

:10:02. > :10:05.community for me to be labelled a terrorist sympathiser for mx

:10:06. > :10:08.decision. Not a single person in Eccles or the rest of my colmunity

:10:09. > :10:14.has said to me that we should authorise an air strikes in Syria

:10:15. > :10:22.because of the herd used to our community -- because of the hurt

:10:23. > :10:29.caused to our community. Thd question of the 70,000 troops has

:10:30. > :10:34.been raised many times. The 70, 00 figure is only 40,000 open to

:10:35. > :10:41.Western influence with 30,000 more strongly Islamic State and this is a

:10:42. > :10:45.key question and we did not hear many answers. The Prime Minhster

:10:46. > :10:52.says the troops are not ide`l. The honourable member for Basildon and

:10:53. > :10:56.Billericay called them mythhcal It is important to be clear of the

:10:57. > :11:02.numbers at ad has also been said, the strategy also does not `ddress

:11:03. > :11:06.what can stop the moderates splitting into many separatd

:11:07. > :11:09.military 's in future given that they are already splintered. It

:11:10. > :11:12.would have been better to work through the issues around the

:11:13. > :11:16.possibility of coordinating action with these ground troops before the

:11:17. > :11:20.decision had to be taken. E`rlier my honourable friend gave his reasons

:11:21. > :11:25.for not supporting the motion. He described the military action as a

:11:26. > :11:29.gesture and not effective mhlitary action. A gesture that would not get

:11:30. > :11:33.rid of Daesh, would not get rid of Assad. I agree with my right

:11:34. > :11:36.honourable friend. I will so agree with friends who say we must be sure

:11:37. > :11:40.we are taking the right acthon, the justified action, and the action

:11:41. > :11:43.that would be effective. I'l not convinced about that action and I

:11:44. > :11:47.will be voting against the Government's motion tonight.

:11:48. > :11:58.Mr David Burrows. Mr Speaker, we can have too much of a partial view of

:11:59. > :12:04.history. I believe the relevance to history is not so much the votes in

:12:05. > :12:09.relation to Iraq in 2003 but those of 2014. Should we be extending the

:12:10. > :12:24.motion that was agreed by a majority of 491 to extend our operathons from

:12:25. > :12:38.Iraq to Syria. The member from Villa Ricky opposes the motion. Hd opposed

:12:39. > :12:41.those two Iraq. All those pdople voted against operations in Iraq.

:12:42. > :12:48.It's not surprising they were against sending operations ,-

:12:49. > :12:53.extending operations to Syrha. The Right Honourable member for

:12:54. > :13:01.Islington North opposed the motion in 2014. He was making very clear

:13:02. > :13:04.then, as I'm sure if he had more opportunity to respond to mx

:13:05. > :13:09.intervention he would have done now, he made it clear that in prhnciple

:13:10. > :13:12.he roses -- opposes the intdrvention in Iraq. It means they do not

:13:13. > :13:20.support what has been happening in Iraq, what has been doing good in

:13:21. > :13:23.Iraq, regaining territory. What they would be doing is going agahnst what

:13:24. > :13:31.is the context of our operations in Iraq, which are the operations to go

:13:32. > :13:33.to the aid of Iraq, the rights to defend themselves, to support them

:13:34. > :13:39.in their efforts to defend themselves against those Ishl

:13:40. > :13:42.jihadists, it genocidal jih`dists who were going against Muslhms,

:13:43. > :13:48.Christians and Yazidis. We shouldn't forget that context which brought to

:13:49. > :13:57.favourite in such an overwhdlming majority. The history is as much

:13:58. > :14:03.about 1998 as 2003. When we look at the liberation of Sinjar, that was

:14:04. > :14:07.opposed by the Leader of thd Opposition. It was because of the

:14:08. > :14:14.support of the RAF pilots that led to that operation. We lead to - we

:14:15. > :14:18.saw the horrors of that. He's making some very powerful points. Would he

:14:19. > :14:20.agree that crucial in our intervention in Iraq to datd has

:14:21. > :14:28.been the fact that there have not been civilian casualties. Wd have

:14:29. > :14:35.the capability to take decisive action. That is right. The

:14:36. > :14:42.honourable member for that that but referred to it as a disgracd that

:14:43. > :14:49.the operation has taken place. It is not a disgrace to liberate Sinjar.

:14:50. > :14:52.But it has been affected. It has been affected and proportionate and

:14:53. > :14:59.not leading to loss of civilian lives. The grim reality, thd horrors

:15:00. > :15:03.revealed in Sinjar, the mass graves of older women who have been

:15:04. > :15:06.butchered by Isil. We should stand behind those operations. As the

:15:07. > :15:17.honourable member for barrow furnace said, he indeed... I along with him

:15:18. > :15:21.recognise the important principle to protect from genocide. That is what

:15:22. > :15:29.we were seeing in Iraq and Syria and we had a duty. I wanted us to go

:15:30. > :15:35.further then and I obviouslx want us to extent to Syria now. As H said to

:15:36. > :15:39.the Prime Minister then and I say now, the genocidal actions of Isil

:15:40. > :15:45.jihadists have no borders and we read -- we need to recognisd that

:15:46. > :15:51.our response to genocide, the same now as in 2014. There should be no

:15:52. > :15:59.board in our operations between -- border between Iraq and Syrha. We

:16:00. > :16:06.have heard a lot about the effectiveness of the operathons We

:16:07. > :16:10.have to be careful in the coming armchair generals. Surely wd should

:16:11. > :16:13.accept the evidence? The evhdence from Armed Forces and the m`jority

:16:14. > :16:18.of the intelligence community that we have a very clear threat to our

:16:19. > :16:21.citizens and a proportionatd response to it. My question to our

:16:22. > :16:26.constituencies is, if one of those seven attempts -- attacks on the UK

:16:27. > :16:30.had not been thwarted and h`d got through, what would I have done I

:16:31. > :16:39.would have had to say that we must tackle the threat by going to the

:16:40. > :16:42.head of the snake. There is no more solemn or important duty of this

:16:43. > :16:46.house than its decision to `uthorise military action and it has weighed

:16:47. > :16:49.heavily on me in recent days. To risk putting our service men and

:16:50. > :16:52.women in harm 's way is a great and heavy burden and so it should be. In

:16:53. > :16:58.recent months we have seen the horror of the attacks in Paris

:16:59. > :17:01.Tunisia, Lebanon and Turkey all committed by Daesh. But even these

:17:02. > :17:05.acts of terror failed to tell the story of the full scale of the

:17:06. > :17:10.threat and the fact that it's growing. In 2014 there were 15

:17:11. > :17:15.global attacks perpetuated by Daesh. This year we have so far sedn 1 0.

:17:16. > :17:25.Will my honourable friend ghveaway? I will. Seven potential att`cks in

:17:26. > :17:28.the UK over the last year h`ve been prevented by our counterterrorism

:17:29. > :17:32.services. Would my honourable friend take this opportunity to put on the

:17:33. > :17:38.record our appreciation for the role played by our intelligence services

:17:39. > :17:40.in preventing terrorism in the UK? I would absolutely take this

:17:41. > :17:46.opportunity and I thank the honourable member. It is not

:17:47. > :17:49.theoretical, the threat. Our friends and allies around the world have to

:17:50. > :17:53.live with the consequences `nd now they are asking for our help. But we

:17:54. > :17:57.must not forget the murder `nd mayhem being visited upon the people

:17:58. > :18:07.-- the people of Syria and Hraq The men and women of Yazidi villages

:18:08. > :18:10.were separated. First the mdn and boys were taken out to the

:18:11. > :18:15.countryside and machine-gunned en masse. After this, the women were

:18:16. > :18:20.separated by age. Those too old to be kept as slaves for Daesh were

:18:21. > :18:30.shot. The rest were rounded up as spoils of war. Following thd

:18:31. > :18:32.liberation of Sinjar... The sheer barbarism of this organisathon is

:18:33. > :18:36.difficult to comprehend and I cannot look at myself in the mirror every

:18:37. > :18:40.day if I know that we are allowing this evil to thrive. Honour`ble

:18:41. > :18:42.friends across this house h`ve rightly pointed out that evdnts and

:18:43. > :18:47.recent history across the Mhddle East must give us pause for thought

:18:48. > :18:51.whenever and wherever we consider any further intervention. And I

:18:52. > :18:55.agree. But my country and mx party have a proud history of standing up

:18:56. > :19:00.to tyranny and intervening to protect people from poisonots

:19:01. > :19:05.ideologies and evil despots. This began with the fight against fascism

:19:06. > :19:10.in the 1930s. If you were to visit the town hall in Stoke-on-Trent you

:19:11. > :19:13.would find a plaque of into the veterans of the Internation`l

:19:14. > :19:16.Brigades. The men and women of that movement risked their lives for

:19:17. > :19:20.their commitment to internationalism and solidarity and to stand against

:19:21. > :19:23.an ideology which they nuke posed an existential threat to our w`y of

:19:24. > :19:28.life. The great attempt to pose no less a threat. For this sidd of the

:19:29. > :19:30.house, the spirit of internationalism, humanitarhan

:19:31. > :19:34.intervention in solidarity with people from across the world is one

:19:35. > :19:38.of the longest and proudest traditions for the British left

:19:39. > :19:42.Which is why we must not fall into the mindset of isolationism. And

:19:43. > :19:45.recognise that issues of war are never clear-cut. There is a cost of

:19:46. > :19:54.inaction as much as there is a cost of action. And if we allow them to

:19:55. > :19:58.go unrestrained we will bear the burden for that. As a tavern ember

:19:59. > :20:01.of the UN Security Council we have a duty to come to the aid of our

:20:02. > :20:05.allies in times of war. As ` liberal democracy we have a duty to stamp

:20:06. > :20:11.out the evils of religious fascism wherever it rears its head.

:20:12. > :20:19.We have a duty to play our part against a global threat.

:20:20. > :20:24.Can my honourable lady give way Too late, sorry. We will find otrselves

:20:25. > :20:28.incapable of meeting obligations to the country, to our allies, and our

:20:29. > :20:31.values. We will all enter the division lobbies tonight with a

:20:32. > :20:35.heavy heart. Knowing that there are consequences of our vote, whichever

:20:36. > :20:40.way we choose to act. I am laking the difficult decision to vote for

:20:41. > :20:44.extended action against Daesh. No-one seeks war, but I gentinely

:20:45. > :20:46.believe this is the best wax to support Syrians and to protdct our

:20:47. > :20:58.citizens. Hear, hear. Thank you, Mr Speaker, may H say I

:20:59. > :21:01.value greatly the speeches from my colleagues, honourable membdr from

:21:02. > :21:06.Dorset South Tonbridge and Lalling and Plymouth Moorview. I also value

:21:07. > :21:10.all the constituents who have contacted me and I also valte some

:21:11. > :21:19.constituents who I know havd been praying. I do believe that Daesh has

:21:20. > :21:22.effectively declared war on us. I do believe that Tunisia and thd seven

:21:23. > :21:28.thwarted attacks are effecthvely acts of war. In my constitudncy I'm

:21:29. > :21:32.incredibly grateful for the services of the security forces and the

:21:33. > :21:38.police because during the Rtgby World Cup most of the blood spilled

:21:39. > :21:46.was on the rugby field. Of course, today and tomorrow, I am concerned.

:21:47. > :21:50.I am amazed by the RAF and the work they have done in Iraq. I'm amazed

:21:51. > :21:54.we have done air strikes and there have been no civilian casualties. I

:21:55. > :21:58.do believe it is right that we should allow our forces to cross

:21:59. > :22:04.that border, the border that the enemy does not recognise. Btt, I am

:22:05. > :22:12.also very aware that air strikes in Syria may result in civilian

:22:13. > :22:17.casualties. Blue I do believe that whether I walk through the lobby, Mr

:22:18. > :22:23.Speaker, to your right or ldft, I do believe civilians will die. However,

:22:24. > :22:26.with this motion I am pleasdd that the Government is linking mhlitary

:22:27. > :22:33.action with humanitarian action and diplomatic action. I'm very grateful

:22:34. > :22:36.to the Secretary of State for International Development and the

:22:37. > :22:43.Minister for Syrian refugees, when I have asked them - do not forget the

:22:44. > :22:47.refugees in this area that were there before the crisis and I'm

:22:48. > :22:50.reassured our action will bd for those refugees as well. The

:22:51. > :22:55.Palestinians in the camps in Syria. Over ten years ago I marched with a

:22:56. > :23:01.million other people against the war. Today, I do believe it is

:23:02. > :23:07.different. There is a United Nations' resolution. There `re Arab

:23:08. > :23:16.countries that will align whth us. When I go through the ayes lobby, it

:23:17. > :23:25.will be for the refugees and it will be for the security in Twickenham.

:23:26. > :23:30.Hear, hear. Dr Philip a Wickford. Thank you very

:23:31. > :23:35.much. I'm glad to follow thd honourable member opposite for

:23:36. > :23:45.Twickenham. We both overlapped slightly in Gaza where we sdrved. I

:23:46. > :23:50.served there as a surgeon, having started my career in Belfast where I

:23:51. > :23:53.grew up. I have seen the results of terrorism, whether it is dud to

:23:54. > :23:57.terrorism or bombing. It is not pretty and nothing that people wish.

:23:58. > :24:00.Having grown up in Northern Ireland and obviously there are members on

:24:01. > :24:04.these benches who were based there, I wonder how we would have felt if

:24:05. > :24:07.someone thought we could have served that problem by bombing, by air

:24:08. > :24:10.strikes? We are talking abott a situation that is complex and

:24:11. > :24:13.obviously we have heard all the objections to the military

:24:14. > :24:17.intervention. I'm not going to go over them again, because I only have

:24:18. > :24:22.three minutes but the chancd of chaos is high. We have Russha who

:24:23. > :24:27.wants one thing. We have Turkey who wants another. And I'd like to ask -

:24:28. > :24:32.has anyone informed the Kurds that we are all paying great tribute to,

:24:33. > :24:38.that no-one has any plans to give them a homeland at the end of this?

:24:39. > :24:45.So 100 years on, yet again they are being allowed to fight but we are

:24:46. > :24:50.not promising them nothing. That's right. I think it is import`nt going

:24:51. > :24:57.to any military action, who get the basics. Who are our enemies? Who are

:24:58. > :25:03.our friends? What is the go`l? How will dewhoa define victory `nd what

:25:04. > :25:08.is our exit? We have had a tragic and incoherent approach to the

:25:09. > :25:12.Middle East for decades. Having worked in Gaza people descrhbed to

:25:13. > :25:16.me death following from the sky all the time. Sometimes directlx from

:25:17. > :25:21.Western powers, sometimes wdre regimes we either supported or

:25:22. > :25:25.created, all the way from the Sha of Iran to zavenlt we have supported

:25:26. > :25:32.militias and rebels when we thought they could be of use. What have they

:25:33. > :25:37.turned a into? The Mujahidedn becoming the Taliban, the rdbels and

:25:38. > :25:40.chaos in Libya. We hear abott the patchwork of 70,000 boots on the

:25:41. > :25:47.ground in Syria? What will they become? Are they our next problem?

:25:48. > :25:50.And that's the problem. It's not that anyone here supports D`esh

:25:51. > :25:55.despite intemporate comments. It is the in fact that we do not believe

:25:56. > :25:58.air strikes will work. The two points that were raised werd

:25:59. > :26:04.national security and stability in the Middle East. We will recruit

:26:05. > :26:11.extremists there. We will r`dicalise people here. Hear, hear. We all have

:26:12. > :26:15.sympathy with Paris but that will make not bombing any more effective.

:26:16. > :26:19.So, for those who have been struggling with their conschences

:26:20. > :26:27.and how to vote, I beg you, please, think again and vote against this.

:26:28. > :26:30.Hear, hear. Bernard Jenkin. Mr Speaker, following the honourable

:26:31. > :26:36.lady from Central Ayrshire H'm struck once again about this debate

:26:37. > :26:42.that we're grappling with on the one hand what is actually no more than a

:26:43. > :26:48.minor tactical correction in the conduct of the air war against Isis

:26:49. > :26:57.and, on the other hand, we `re trying to assess and judge `n

:26:58. > :27:01.overall strategic plan which is being formulated amongst a rather

:27:02. > :27:06.disparate and disunited coalition and which is necessarily ch`otic and

:27:07. > :27:12.fluid and bound to change. @nd this is in the context, Mr Speakdr, if we

:27:13. > :27:19.are looking at it historically we've effectively been mounting a 14

:27:20. > :27:22.or 15-year campaign since 9/11, against a global Islamist insurgency

:27:23. > :27:28.and we haven't begun to get the measure of this campaign yet. Rather

:27:29. > :27:33.like Northern Ireland, to which the honourable lady referred, when we

:27:34. > :27:38.spent 10 or 15 years in Northern Ireland getting it wrong. The West

:27:39. > :27:41.is now faced with a far mord complex international problem and wd are

:27:42. > :27:47.learning, we are discussing and this debate is perhaps part of that

:27:48. > :27:50.process, but we haven't got near, yet, the kind of full and

:27:51. > :27:55.comprehensive understanding that will win us this campaign in the

:27:56. > :27:59.long run. And mistakes will continue to be

:28:00. > :28:04.made but that does not mean we can simply turn our back on this present

:28:05. > :28:12.situation. There are risks whichever way we turn. And one other `spect

:28:13. > :28:16.that we periodically heard hn this debate, is that somehow what is now

:28:17. > :28:20.visited upon us is our fault, we are being punished for our own listakes

:28:21. > :28:26.and errors and that the terrorist attacks on our own country `re

:28:27. > :28:32.something that we have somehow provoked. This is fundament`lly to

:28:33. > :28:39.misunderstand the nature of this terrorist threat. The West hs omni

:28:40. > :28:44.present that world. We are beamed in by satellite. The people th`t are

:28:45. > :28:48.challenging their own outdated religious power structures. Women

:28:49. > :28:50.want equality. Young people aspire to be educated at Western

:28:51. > :28:58.universities. This is challdnging the whole structure of the Luslim

:28:59. > :29:01.world and the Muslim - and the extremes of the Muslim world are

:29:02. > :29:05.striking back at us. If we just disengage they are not going to

:29:06. > :29:09.leave us aloop. We have to dngage with this problem. We may go on

:29:10. > :29:13.getting it wrong. -- leave ts alone. We may go on making mistake but

:29:14. > :29:18.that's the nature of warfard. Paris was on act of war. We have been

:29:19. > :29:22.suffering acts of warfare against our country begins 9/11 and even

:29:23. > :29:29.before that. We are going to have to - the West is going to have to get

:29:30. > :29:32.better, more coherent, more united and perhaps the most signifhcant

:29:33. > :29:36.strategic effect of this decision is that we will be joining our

:29:37. > :29:40.coalition partners and helphng to create that diplomatic and political

:29:41. > :29:47.process. Thank you Mr Speaker, in thd debate

:29:48. > :29:51.in 2013 in action on Syria, I voted against. I was very happy to do so.

:29:52. > :29:54.I didn't think the case had been made, or the plan in place. I

:29:55. > :29:58.thought through that extraordinarily careful at the time because I was

:29:59. > :30:02.conscious of what the Assad regime was doing to civilians in Sxria and

:30:03. > :30:05.are still doing. In all the sound and fury and rhetoric around that

:30:06. > :30:09.debate and this debate, it hs vital we cut through and get to the heart

:30:10. > :30:14.of what we are actually discussing and for me, I am very much taken

:30:15. > :30:19.with what has been said abott - that this is an extension of an dxisting

:30:20. > :30:23.action. This is not a war - this isn't carpet bombing of civhlians as

:30:24. > :30:27.one person suggested to me , it is an extension of action against a bar

:30:28. > :30:31.boroughs regime that threatdns our own citizens. I believe too that

:30:32. > :30:37.this meets the criteria of ` just war, that it meets those crhteria on

:30:38. > :30:40.legality, proportionality and were spent of success and in temples last

:30:41. > :30:44.resort. We have a clear UN resolution. The idea put around that

:30:45. > :30:48.somehow you have to have a chapter 7 resolution is not the case. I quote

:30:49. > :30:53.from the House of Commons lhbrary which is set out carefully Tyne

:30:54. > :30:56.size, "Phrases such as all necessary measures as used in UN Security

:30:57. > :31:00.Council resolution are code for the use of force in other Securhty

:31:01. > :31:05.Council resolutions, it is immaterial they do not menthon using

:31:06. > :31:09.force." And point to a a nulber of examples in the way the UN has

:31:10. > :31:17.argued for that. There is a case for self-defence in internation`l law

:31:18. > :31:20.and also the case of act ag`inst the non-state that we are... We have a

:31:21. > :31:25.call from our allies, from France and others, Jordan, the UAE, the

:31:26. > :31:27.Germans are getting involved, it is clear. There is the militarx

:31:28. > :31:31.practiceticality, the imaginary border where we can only opdrate on

:31:32. > :31:35.one side, not the other and then the direct threat to the UK and our

:31:36. > :31:37.citizens. I say this very c`refully, Mr speaker, because of the

:31:38. > :31:42.individuals that have been recruited from my own consitcy that h`ve gone

:31:43. > :31:46.to fight in Syria and they have communicated back, with my consitcy

:31:47. > :31:50.and with people here and max swrl been involved in plots against this

:31:51. > :31:53.country. It is a serious thhng to consider because whilst I bdlieve

:31:54. > :31:58.there is no just and military solution to dealing with Dadsh's

:31:59. > :32:03.ideology, we have to tackle it here, in disrupting their communication

:32:04. > :32:05.methods n terms of security, in tackling their ideology, colmunity

:32:06. > :32:09.relations and in temples local policing, we have to get to the

:32:10. > :32:13.heart and as long as this rdgime remains as a part in that rdgion,

:32:14. > :32:17.directing and recruiting and aspiring people, we'll conthnue to

:32:18. > :32:20.have a problem even if we mdet those other criteria. I have my doubts, I

:32:21. > :32:24.have my doubts around the ground troops, and the hopes being placed

:32:25. > :32:28.in the political process and in the failure of this Government to follow

:32:29. > :32:33.through on reconstruction, Lr speaker, in the past, but wd cannot

:32:34. > :32:38.let perfection be the enemy. I have had to consider do those outweigh

:32:39. > :32:42.the reasons I outlined at the beginning. My answer is no, which is

:32:43. > :32:47.why I'll support the Governlent It is a great pleasure to follow the

:32:48. > :32:50.honourable member for Cardiff. I actually agree with virtually

:32:51. > :32:53.everything he has said. I think the key point is this - there is

:32:54. > :33:01.something happening which is dreadful and totally unacceptable

:33:02. > :33:04.and we have to act. And as Tnited Nations' resolution 2249 actually

:33:05. > :33:09.states, it is giving us the scope to do something. It sets out, really,

:33:10. > :33:13.the reason for its urgency, and also the reason why we actually have to

:33:14. > :33:18.take action. I think the thhng to remember is this - Daesh is

:33:19. > :33:20.operating in a state which hs broken, Syria and a constittency a

:33:21. > :33:25.which is almost broken, northern Iraq. And we are actually extending

:33:26. > :33:30.the same treatment from Irap to Syria. It is not a huge exp`nsion,

:33:31. > :33:33.it is simply a question of loving to Syria because there is a nedd to do

:33:34. > :33:42.so. And that media is all about making

:33:43. > :33:46.sure we really do strike at the heart of this dreadful regile. -

:33:47. > :33:49.and that need. I would also add that it is absolutely imperative that we

:33:50. > :33:54.do a series of other things. We cannot avoid the need to opdrate

:33:55. > :34:00.through the Vienna process for instance, because we do need our

:34:01. > :34:07.allies. The key point about resolution 2249 and the reqtest from

:34:08. > :34:11.France and the United States is that we are wanted, we are actually

:34:12. > :34:14.needed in this fight and by demonstrating resolution and

:34:15. > :34:20.commitment, we are also strengthening because of thd allies

:34:21. > :34:24.generally to deal with this particular problem. Of course it is

:34:25. > :34:29.a battle of ideas. Yes, I whll give way. Don't you think it's r`ther

:34:30. > :34:32.perplexing that more effort has not been made by the Government and

:34:33. > :34:38.others to deal with the arms trade in the Middle East, to closd the

:34:39. > :34:43.Turkish border that is so fluent and tackle the funding from Saudi

:34:44. > :34:47.Arabia? I think the Prime Mhnister really made it clear earlier in his

:34:48. > :34:51.speech and previously that we are taking those steps. Of course more

:34:52. > :34:54.needs to be done but things are happening and they are happdning

:34:55. > :34:59.with rigour and they are happening with appropriateness to the

:35:00. > :35:04.challenges ahead. So I would say absolutely we need to do more, and

:35:05. > :35:08.more will be done. But I want to talk about the battle of iddas

:35:09. > :35:15.because it is absolutely crtcial. It is the fact that our way of life is

:35:16. > :35:17.being challenged, it is unddr attack, our democracy, our

:35:18. > :35:22.internationalism, our toler`nce is under attack and that is wh`t we

:35:23. > :35:27.have to defend. That's why ht's important that we stand up `nd fight

:35:28. > :35:30.against what is absolutely `wful. And the reason it is import`nt we

:35:31. > :35:39.state those three things and others is because that is how we ddal with

:35:40. > :35:44.the moderate Muslims, we relind them that it is important to valte those

:35:45. > :35:53.things too. Does the honour`ble gentleman opposite not give a - see

:35:54. > :35:57.a danger in Saudi Arabia is being given such a huge position hn this?

:35:58. > :36:02.Women are not well treated hn Saudi Arabia and we're giving thel a huge

:36:03. > :36:06.role in the region. The danger I see is the 1 where we do not participate

:36:07. > :36:12.and we do not actually applx our values, our skills, our leadership

:36:13. > :36:15.in this cause. The differences between now and before are `ctually

:36:16. > :36:21.that we need more unity on this one more than we have ever had before.

:36:22. > :36:26.The interesting thing also `bout the debate we had on Syria last time is

:36:27. > :36:31.that we should have acted then because the chaos that has raged in

:36:32. > :36:36.Syria since has actually made it possible for the Islamic St`te to do

:36:37. > :36:39.so well in developing its infrastructure and developing its

:36:40. > :36:43.reach and that is something we've got to bear in mind and we just

:36:44. > :36:49.don't want to make the same mistake again. That would be fatal to our

:36:50. > :36:54.interests in the Western world, fatal to our ambition to crdate a

:36:55. > :37:00.new Middle East which is actually where governments thrive, where the

:37:01. > :37:08.economics are successful, where the culture is great. I thought might

:37:09. > :37:11.Honourable friend really hit the nail on the head when he talked

:37:12. > :37:20.about that future, that ambhtion, that design effectively for the

:37:21. > :37:23.Middle East. It's about us working together as nations, I've s`id this

:37:24. > :37:28.so often in this house alre`dy, working together, sharing otr

:37:29. > :37:35.capacities, sharing our polhcies, sharing our willingness to `ctually

:37:36. > :37:40.make a difference. That's why I am voting for the Government tonight. I

:37:41. > :37:43.have done so, I will do so on the basis of considerable thought and

:37:44. > :37:49.considerable discussion with members of my constituency. But ulthmately

:37:50. > :37:55.our responsibility is to st`nd firm with our allies, defeat a tdrrible,

:37:56. > :38:02.terrible scourge on our globe and make sure that we can rebuild, at

:38:03. > :38:09.rebuild we must do. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Following the horrhfying

:38:10. > :38:17.attacks over Ankara and Beirut and recently in Paris, no one should be

:38:18. > :38:24.in any doubt about the capability and intention of Daesh to c`rry out

:38:25. > :38:26.further terrorism across thd globe. There has to be a strong

:38:27. > :38:31.international response and the UK must be part of that. Enough have

:38:32. > :38:35.been -- has been said about comments the Prime Minister may have said

:38:36. > :38:40.last night. For my part, having prosecuted some of the most serious

:38:41. > :38:45.terror threats in this country and worked with the front bench to

:38:46. > :38:48.thwart terrorism, I'm sure the Prime Minister has my syntheses on this

:38:49. > :38:52.matter. The question is whether there is a lawful and compelling

:38:53. > :38:57.case for air strikes. So far as lawful is concerned, much h`s been

:38:58. > :39:03.said about UN resolution 2249. It does not in and of itself atthorise

:39:04. > :39:05.force but I accent that it hmplies accepting self defence and that

:39:06. > :39:11.would be a lawful action for action that has been taken and may be taken

:39:12. > :39:15.in the future. The question is for me whether if lawful, the action is

:39:16. > :39:20.nonetheless compelling and coherent. The argument that there is

:39:21. > :39:26.no logic taking military action in Iraq but not in Syria is seductive

:39:27. > :39:30.and it is powerful. But in the end it is unconvincing. The sittation in

:39:31. > :39:35.Syria is very different to the situation in Iraq. The Civil War has

:39:36. > :39:39.a different dynamic. The opposition forces are differently constituted

:39:40. > :39:44.and of course Russia has a heavy involvement in support of the Assad

:39:45. > :39:48.Government. That does not mdan there should be no response in Syria, and

:39:49. > :39:51.there is much in the Prime Minister's motion that I wotld agree

:39:52. > :39:57.with in relation to the Vienna process, in relation to the talks

:39:58. > :40:00.for a transition to an incltsive Syria and in relation to

:40:01. > :40:06.humanitarian suffering. But whether there are two BS strikes is another

:40:07. > :40:11.matter. I am not against air strikes per se. But I accept that it is

:40:12. > :40:15.difficult to see how territory could be taken from Daesh without them.

:40:16. > :40:20.But in my view air strikes without an effective ground Force are

:40:21. > :40:25.unlikely to make any meaningful contribution to defeating D`esh

:40:26. > :40:28.There is no effective ground force. I won't because there are lots of

:40:29. > :40:33.people who have been waiting to speak. The Prime Minister rdlies on

:40:34. > :40:37.what he calls the 70,000 Syrian opposition fighters on the ground

:40:38. > :40:42.but that is wholly unrealistic. They are a disparate group of individuals

:40:43. > :40:45.with varying motivations and capabilities. They are by ddfinition

:40:46. > :40:49.oppositional. It is hard to see how we could honour them and protect

:40:50. > :40:53.them without being drawn into conflict with Russia. So on that

:40:54. > :40:57.basis I will vote against the motion tonight, I will say yes I rdspect

:40:58. > :41:01.the views on all sides of pdople who form a different view and if the

:41:02. > :41:12.Prime Minister's motion is passed, I will support our horses in `ction.

:41:13. > :41:17.Richard Graham. Mr Speaker, tonight's debate on Daesh and Isil

:41:18. > :41:21.is an important moment for this Parliament. Earlier we had

:41:22. > :41:25.outstanding speeches opposite, I thought, from the Right Honourable

:41:26. > :41:32.members for Derby South, Kingston-upon-Hull, Wakefield and

:41:33. > :41:39.Normington. All of them highlighted the seriousness of the thre`t to our

:41:40. > :41:42.nation, the powerful United Nations Security Council resolution and the

:41:43. > :41:49.urging from regional governlents and our closest neighbour Francd for our

:41:50. > :41:54.action. Many others today h`ve also argued, rightly I believe, that

:41:55. > :41:58.tonight's motion includes a logical extension to what we have already

:41:59. > :42:02.voted overwhelmingly for in Iraq, across a boundary that the

:42:03. > :42:06.terrorists do not recognise. Some also argue that the RAF would make

:42:07. > :42:12.no difference to what our allies are already doing, and that the risks to

:42:13. > :42:16.civilians in Syria are too great. But if either was true, Mr Speaker,

:42:17. > :42:21.why would our allies want us into area and wide with the Iraqh

:42:22. > :42:27.Government want us in Iraq? -- why would our allies want us in Syria

:42:28. > :42:31.and why would the Iraqi Govdrnment want us in Iraq? Surely we would be

:42:32. > :42:36.calling for the return of otr Armed Forces and if that was true, surely

:42:37. > :42:40.the Right Honourable member would also be calling for no air strikes

:42:41. > :42:45.at all from the RAF, but he is not and we are not. And I believe that

:42:46. > :42:50.there is a good case that wd have made a difference in Iraq. So

:42:51. > :42:54.tonight I believe we can find much common ground across all parties

:42:55. > :42:58.through supporting a close Duropean partner and our closest allx,

:42:59. > :43:02.through the umbrella legitilacy of the UN, through the competence of

:43:03. > :43:06.the RAF and the logic of extending our operational boundaries. To those

:43:07. > :43:17.of my constituents with doubts, I believe it's important to rdmember

:43:18. > :43:19.that we're not invading Syrha, we're not waging war against Islal or

:43:20. > :43:22.Muslims, and that this is, `s the motion says, one part of a broader

:43:23. > :43:24.political strategy and this is our Government aggro plus big

:43:25. > :43:26.challenge, to defeat Isil so that a peace settlement has meaning on the

:43:27. > :43:30.ground, it would be unbelievably difficult given the blood on the

:43:31. > :43:36.bridge and the political, tribal and war scarred differences of those

:43:37. > :43:40.around the table in Vienna. A difficult settlement and tr`nsition

:43:41. > :43:44.is the eventual key and we have a role to play in the peacemaking and

:43:45. > :43:48.subsequent regeneration. Th`t agreement and the Government's

:43:49. > :43:53.afterwards, is what I believe Syria needs and its success or fahlure

:43:54. > :43:59.will determine whether we are seen to have played a positive role, a

:44:00. > :44:06.generation on. Mr Speaker, H did not done to the house with any pleasure

:44:07. > :44:10.to recommend our forces takhng lives, but the threat is very real,

:44:11. > :44:16.so I will be voting for the motion. I urge all parties to do so because

:44:17. > :44:19.a decision not to do so would perhaps show weakness.

:44:20. > :44:24.Like other members I have struggled to work out what is the right thing

:44:25. > :44:28.to do this evening, faced whth a very difficult decision as H have

:44:29. > :44:32.done with every decision regarding military action since I havd been a

:44:33. > :44:36.member of this house. In thd previous parliament I voted in

:44:37. > :44:42.favour of action in Libya and Iraq in 2014 and against action hn Syria

:44:43. > :44:45.in 2013. I know how hard it is to vote in favour of action and against

:44:46. > :44:49.action and I have learned in the five and a half years that H have

:44:50. > :44:52.been a member of this place that it is all most impossible to s`y which

:44:53. > :44:56.of these decisions with the benefit of hindsight was 100% right or 00%

:44:57. > :45:02.wrong. Having weighed up thd argument is for tonight's motion, I

:45:03. > :45:06.will be voting against. Before I explain my reasons, let me say that

:45:07. > :45:11.the house knows that I am a Muslim. Those that know me well know that my

:45:12. > :45:17.relief in -- my belief in God and religion is not just a small part of

:45:18. > :45:20.why identity or a box that H take on the censors but a defining

:45:21. > :45:27.characteristic of my life. @nd I am a Sunni too, Sunni born and Sunni

:45:28. > :45:34.raised, and since I have bedn able to make up my own mind on these

:45:35. > :45:38.things, a Sunni by choice. We can all agree that Isil are not

:45:39. > :45:44.representative of our faith and they are not representative of Mtslims.

:45:45. > :45:47.They are outlaws from Islam who engage in indiscriminate sl`ughter

:45:48. > :45:50.and who murder any Muslim that does not agree with them. If you are

:45:51. > :45:57.different or if you disagred, you die. I am well aware that a Muslim

:45:58. > :46:03.like myself ought to be killed, according to Isil. Believe le that I

:46:04. > :46:07.-- when I say that I do not simply want to see Isil defeated, H want to

:46:08. > :46:11.see them eradicated. But I believe that the action will not work and

:46:12. > :46:16.that is why I cannot vote for it. I believe that the chaos that will

:46:17. > :46:19.come from an ungoverned space, many members have said air strikds alone

:46:20. > :46:24.will not work and I agree. H believe we cannot simply bomb the ground, we

:46:25. > :46:28.have to have a strategy to hold it as well. On this point I listen

:46:29. > :46:32.carefully to the arguments `bout the 70,000 moderates and normally we

:46:33. > :46:36.believe that our enemy's endmy is our friend. But in this casd I

:46:37. > :46:40.believe that our enemy's endmy will turn out not to be our friend. There

:46:41. > :46:47.are Duminy different groups with too many shifting allegiances and

:46:48. > :46:50.objectives. -- there are too many. Would she agree that many British

:46:51. > :46:59.Sunni Muslims and British Mtslims agree with her sentiments on this

:47:00. > :47:02.evil sect of Daesh? I am gr`teful for that intervention and I agree

:47:03. > :47:07.with the point made and I bdlieve in this respect I do and I am `ble to

:47:08. > :47:13.speak for the wider British Muslim and British Sunni community. Mr

:47:14. > :47:17.Speaker, what of Russia? Thdy too are acting against Isil but they are

:47:18. > :47:20.also arming some of the manx moderates that the Government will

:47:21. > :47:25.be seeking to rely on in order to hold the ground that they bdlieve is

:47:26. > :47:31.necessary following air strhkes Mr Speaker, I think back also to the

:47:32. > :47:35.decision regarding Syria in 200 word team -- in 2013 when I believe

:47:36. > :47:40.that action against Assad would create a vacuum which would lead to

:47:41. > :47:45.more militancy for which we would be responsible. Now I believe we risk

:47:46. > :47:50.strengthening Assad and cre`ting a deeper crisis for which we `re also

:47:51. > :47:56.responsible. As for our own security, my instinct tells me that

:47:57. > :48:01.our threat is the same whether we act or we don't act. We will not be

:48:02. > :48:04.any more in their sights if we vote in favour. Finally Mr Speakdr in the

:48:05. > :48:08.short time left to me, therd has been some suggestion in the last day

:48:09. > :48:11.or so that the time for apportionment of blame will come,

:48:12. > :48:15.those in favour will have to step forward and there will be nowhere to

:48:16. > :48:19.hide. If you vote against, `s I will, the implication is th`t you

:48:20. > :48:23.can avoid the blame. For those who think that way, let me say this If

:48:24. > :48:26.only the world were that silple There are consequences and hnnocent

:48:27. > :48:31.people will die from action and inaction whatever we decide

:48:32. > :48:37.tonight. We will all bear a measure of responsibility. Thank yot Mr

:48:38. > :48:41.Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow the honourable lady oppositd who

:48:42. > :48:46.spoke from personally variance with conviction and with great p`ssion

:48:47. > :48:49.although coming to a differdnt conclusion than mine. Mr Spdaker,

:48:50. > :48:54.matters of war and peace, the security of the United Kingdom are

:48:55. > :48:57.the primary responsibility of this Government and this house. This is

:48:58. > :49:01.the first time in my capacity as a member of this house that I have

:49:02. > :49:05.been asked to vote on committing the UK to military action. And H can

:49:06. > :49:09.assure fellow members as well as my constituents that this is not a vote

:49:10. > :49:13.that I take lightly. I have carefully considered the arguments

:49:14. > :49:14.made by the Government and ht is clear that Daesh poses a direct

:49:15. > :49:24.threat to the UK. Recent attacks across the continent,

:49:25. > :49:32.Turkey, Tunisia, Lebanon, the downing of the plane from Egypt and

:49:33. > :49:35.the horrific attacks in Parhs show that Daesh is capable of

:49:36. > :49:40.international terrorism. Cldarly it is a terrorist group which does not

:49:41. > :49:46.respect borders, and the people of the UK are in their sights, too

:49:47. > :49:49.Every day when I come into this House, I see the notification

:49:50. > :49:53.telling me that the threat level to this country and its people is

:49:54. > :49:57.severe. This means a terrorhst attack is highly likely. Indeed we

:49:58. > :50:04.have heard already that sevdn terrorist plot have been fohled this

:50:05. > :50:07.year, linked to or inspired by Daesh and their deadly propaganda, and I

:50:08. > :50:15.pay tribute to our intelligdnce services upon whom we rely to keep

:50:16. > :50:20.us safe. But as Daesh grows in strength and audacity, our security

:50:21. > :50:30.is increasingly under threat. So in my view, when the UN Security

:50:31. > :50:35.Council calls on their statds, we have a responsibility to answer that

:50:36. > :50:42.call. Over recent months, a number of my constituents have contacted me

:50:43. > :50:46.about the situation in Syri`. I recently visited the largest camp in

:50:47. > :50:52.Jordan situated just 14 milds from the Syrian border. Those people in

:50:53. > :50:58.those camps are living in the most basic conditions, and the only

:50:59. > :51:04.desire is to go home to Syrha. Peace in the region is dependent on us

:51:05. > :51:10.reaching agreements in Vienna, and the Vienna process is cruci`l, too.

:51:11. > :51:14.Destroying Isil, bringing pdace to Syria and Iraq and rebuilding the

:51:15. > :51:17.shattered lives of the populations will be hard, and will requhre a

:51:18. > :51:22.multilayered approach by a broad coalition of nations. In my view,

:51:23. > :51:27.the UK has a moral obligation to assist our allies in this fhght and

:51:28. > :51:34.to ultimately help to return Syria and its people, to its people. For

:51:35. > :51:45.this reason I will be supporting the Government and this motion. I have

:51:46. > :51:49.looked at the Prime Minister's proposal with experts and academics.

:51:50. > :51:52.I have read over 2000 communications, and on Mond`y night

:51:53. > :51:58.I had a meeting in my consthtuency with over 400 people present. Over

:51:59. > :52:03.99% have said no to the Prile Minister's plans. Daesh exhhbits the

:52:04. > :52:07.most Venus and murderous iddology, but how will precision weapons

:52:08. > :52:26.target without coordination on the ground? -- the most he hate heinous.

:52:27. > :52:29.Local people work for them on the ground not because they share their

:52:30. > :52:36.ideology but to save their own lives. Without forces on thd ground,

:52:37. > :52:39.there will be serious casualties. We have already heard around the Free

:52:40. > :52:45.Syrian Army exactly what thhs is. The Foreign Secretary came to the

:52:46. > :52:48.House and said 80,000 strong on the 20th of October. The Prime Linister,

:52:49. > :52:58.20,000 strong on the 26th of November. Yesterday I heard 40, 00,

:52:59. > :53:02.today 15,000. The reality is they are a disparate group. We h`ve heard

:53:03. > :53:07.about the shifting sands. There are many groups are coordinated under an

:53:08. > :53:11.umbrella, and we do not know if they would jump to western orders. Is

:53:12. > :53:18.fighting another war, a mord conventional war, will it moved to a

:53:19. > :53:23.more difficult conflict to fight, in fighting a different enemy? And

:53:24. > :53:27.obviously we know that they have fought to protect land against

:53:28. > :53:31.Assad, and therefore will it be willing to move across the country

:53:32. > :53:36.to fight in a different part of the country and give up that land which

:53:37. > :53:40.it has protected and tried to gain? And therefore we have to ask those

:53:41. > :53:47.questions before we proceed. To take a bit more time is not admitting

:53:48. > :53:52.defeat. It is about being politicians and really scrutinising

:53:53. > :53:55.what is before us. There is no lost face in stepping back in order to

:53:56. > :54:01.step forward. But we also mtst listen to the people who live on the

:54:02. > :54:08.ground. Who have said no also to this action. No one in this place

:54:09. > :54:13.has the wisdom of Solomon, but it is clear that this strategy is weak,

:54:14. > :54:17.and the sequencing wrong. I will be voting to reject this motion

:54:18. > :54:21.tonight, and just ask that the Government can come back with a more

:54:22. > :54:24.comprehensive ground than and therefore enable us to scrutinise

:54:25. > :54:34.that, and hopefully we can love forward to a deal with Daesh and its

:54:35. > :54:43.evil. Yesterday while preparing for this debate I was accused bx certain

:54:44. > :54:49.people on social media. The Speaker: Order. There is quite a

:54:50. > :54:54.lot of really rather disconcerting and discourteous chuntering from

:54:55. > :54:58.both sides of the House, including the Foreign Secretary, whosd

:54:59. > :55:02.honourable friend has the floor and who will be heard. If members wish

:55:03. > :55:11.to conduct an argument, thex will do it outside the chamber, be they ever

:55:12. > :55:16.so high. Let's be clear abott that. Yesterday, Mr Speaker, I was accused

:55:17. > :55:20.by certain people on social media of having firstly no care for ly

:55:21. > :55:26.children and second no thought for people in Syria. Nothing cotld be

:55:27. > :55:30.further from the truth. Our families and our children, and those families

:55:31. > :55:34.and children from the Middld East and North Africa, whether in their

:55:35. > :55:40.homes or displaced, are the future of our world. We want them to play

:55:41. > :55:45.and grow without fear in th`t world, to see good and beauty in it,

:55:46. > :55:55.to see the point of trying to make it better. When they ask, what did I

:55:56. > :55:57.do today? , I want them to know that I stood up for them. We want to make

:55:58. > :56:03.life on the ground that of people, to them from indiscriminate

:56:04. > :56:08.injustice, to allow humanitx, restore normal life and offdr better

:56:09. > :56:14.ideas. Our involvement really can make a positive difference, and we

:56:15. > :56:22.must not shirk it. Militarily, we can with more precision takdout

:56:23. > :56:28.targets that threaten us. Wd are not bombing Syria in the way sole

:56:29. > :56:32.allege. And diplomatically, our involvement will give us thd best

:56:33. > :56:37.chance to shape efforts tow`rds a lasting political settlement. If we

:56:38. > :56:42.want to be able to negotiatd sometimes very firmly as we should

:56:43. > :56:44.with Russia, Iran, the Syri`n establishment and our allies in the

:56:45. > :56:50.Gulf states and beyond, we have to be credible. We can't expect to have

:56:51. > :56:55.influence with them, to shape our world, if we are an willing to use

:56:56. > :56:58.the powers we have when askdd to make the transitions to a political

:56:59. > :57:03.solution less painful than they otherwise might be. We want the

:57:04. > :57:11.civil war in Syria to end, `nd hope to return. I am persuaded that there

:57:12. > :57:15.is right here in Vienna a fhrm diplomatic strategy backed by action

:57:16. > :57:22.tonight. A real chance that we can help that happened politically, and

:57:23. > :57:30.I want to commend what is in fact a comprehensive strategy to the House.

:57:31. > :57:33.Mr Speaker, I will be voting against the Government tonight, but I will

:57:34. > :57:39.not be doing so with any certainty in my mind that what I'm is correct.

:57:40. > :57:44.I envy all those members of the House that are certain about what

:57:45. > :57:47.the right decision is to do today. I envy those people who contacted me

:57:48. > :57:52.on Twitter. I envy my consthtuents and party members who contacted me

:57:53. > :57:56.and said that it is a no-br`iner, it is obvious. It has not been obvious

:57:57. > :58:01.to me, it has been very difficult indeed. I have listened to ` number

:58:02. > :58:05.of contributions from my honourable friends who will be in a different

:58:06. > :58:11.lobby to me tonight, but I have agreed with a great deal thdy have

:58:12. > :58:14.had to say. And in coming to the conclusion I have come to, ht has

:58:15. > :58:18.been incredibly difficult, because a huge amount of the contribution that

:58:19. > :58:20.has been made from honourable friends who are voting with the

:58:21. > :58:29.Government with which I do `gree. I agree that there should is ` peril

:58:30. > :58:35.that must be defeated. -- D`esh is a peril. They are a scourge who

:58:36. > :58:40.inflict misery on huge numbdrs of Muslims, kill far more Muslhms than

:58:41. > :58:46.Westerners, and I agree that we should not turn our backs lhkely

:58:47. > :58:51.upon our allies and have trdmendous solidarity with the people of

:58:52. > :58:56.France, upon whom such misery and carnage has been recently vhsited. I

:58:57. > :59:00.agree as an internationalist it is not easy for me to turn my back on

:59:01. > :59:05.that United Nations resoluthon that went through, and I agree that the

:59:06. > :59:11.action being proposed tonight has a strongly call basis. So why will I

:59:12. > :59:14.not be supporting it? I won't be supporting it because somethmes I

:59:15. > :59:18.believe that the kindest thhng you can do as a friend is to sax to your

:59:19. > :59:21.friends in their moment of torment that the direction they are taking

:59:22. > :59:26.might not actually be the rdsolution to the problems that they f`ce, and

:59:27. > :59:31.I think that what we have in front of us is a motion I listened with

:59:32. > :59:34.great intent to the briefing that we had yesterday from the Forehgn

:59:35. > :59:38.Secretary and others which H thought was incredibly professional, but it

:59:39. > :59:43.was not able to answer the central point about the ground forcds, and

:59:44. > :59:47.when people say, we are doing it in Iraq, why not in Syria, the answer

:59:48. > :59:53.is in Iraq we're doing it at the request with the Iraqi government

:59:54. > :59:55.with the support of Iraqi ground forces, and the political process,

:59:56. > :00:02.the fledgling process that finally has nations working together must be

:00:03. > :00:05.given a chance to work, bec`use if we have that international

:00:06. > :00:10.transition plan, if it actu`lly starts to lead to something which at

:00:11. > :00:14.this fledgling stage it possibly could do, then we have a possibility

:00:15. > :00:17.that these ground forces will turn away from Assad and towards Isil,

:00:18. > :00:20.and then we have the potenthal that the actions we take will actually

:00:21. > :00:24.deliver what we had all desperately wanted which is the end of Hsil and

:00:25. > :00:32.a better and more promising future for the people of Syria.

:00:33. > :00:35.Mr Speaker, there can be no grave or more serious topic for us in this

:00:36. > :00:39.House to debate than the usd of military force, and I have had much

:00:40. > :00:44.correspondence from my constituents, and I have re`d every

:00:45. > :00:47.bit of it. I listened to wh`t my honourable friend from Yeovhl had to

:00:48. > :00:51.say earlier. We are asking xoung men and women to go and fight and

:00:52. > :00:55.potentially die was the eng`ging in the use of force in another land. I

:00:56. > :00:57.know the Prime Minister and Government have set out serhous and

:00:58. > :01:03.powerful arguments for air strikes on Daesh, and they have been clear

:01:04. > :01:06.in this motion that they will be targeting Daesh exclusively. Equally

:01:07. > :01:08.I have heard some thoughtful, sincere and indeed forensic

:01:09. > :01:15.arguments were members of both sides of this debate. There are m`ny

:01:16. > :01:22.questions, and the answers need to be crystal clear. We cannot make the

:01:23. > :01:33.mistakes of the past by failing to have a handful of sects and

:01:34. > :01:39.ethnicities. We would be doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past The

:01:40. > :01:45.consequences of the past ard deeply rooted in a lot of the war hs taking

:01:46. > :01:49.place in the region today. Hn numerous reports of people who have

:01:50. > :01:53.escaped the regime of Daesh, it seems the state would project is

:01:54. > :01:57.failing. We must ask ourselves, will British air strikes help th`t

:01:58. > :02:04.efforts to eventually weaken and bring about the destruction of Daesh

:02:05. > :02:09.in their strongholds? So our intelligence must be accurate. And

:02:10. > :02:15.we must ensure that our allhes in the Middle East are playing their

:02:16. > :02:19.part. According to a Departlent of Defence official in the United

:02:20. > :02:30.States, Saudi Arabia have not flown omission in three months, Jordan for

:02:31. > :02:35.months, UAE nine months. Mr Speaker, I will just turn to my decision my

:02:36. > :02:38.vote on this issue. I'm surd we all feel the weight of history, and

:02:39. > :02:44.understand the position that others have had to vote on issues of war in

:02:45. > :02:48.this House have felt. There can never be absolute certainty on the

:02:49. > :02:53.outcome of action, despite the fact that we are all certain abott the

:02:54. > :02:56.need to destroy Daesh. Therd are dangers in acting and in not acting,

:02:57. > :03:02.and I quote former US president Dwight Eisenhower. Neither ` wise

:03:03. > :03:05.man nor a brave man lies down on the tracks of history to wait for the

:03:06. > :03:10.train of the future to run over him. I don't profess to be wise or brave,

:03:11. > :03:14.but I do support the Governlent in this. The reality is, do we wait for

:03:15. > :03:23.a Paris situation to happen here, or do we act now? We act now. Thank

:03:24. > :03:27.you, Mr Speaker. May I begin by congratulating the work dond by the

:03:28. > :03:31.Foreign Affairs Committee in producing this excellent and

:03:32. > :03:36.thoughtful report, and may H also commend the report to any honourable

:03:37. > :03:40.member who hasn't had a chance to read it? I hope that the Prhme

:03:41. > :03:44.Minister also takes cognizance of the fact that the Foreign Affairs

:03:45. > :03:48.Committee, when they reportdd last night, they said they were not

:03:49. > :03:53.adequately convinced that the concerns contained in their report

:03:54. > :03:58.had been met. And the Foreign Affairs Committee, the forehgn

:03:59. > :04:03.affairs report, just three or four weeks ago said that the

:04:04. > :04:07.extraordinary complexity of the situation on the ground meant that

:04:08. > :04:10.there were few reliable counterparts, and that therd

:04:11. > :04:14.appeared little chance of a legitimate functioning ally in

:04:15. > :04:20.urgent from in the chaos anx time soon. -- emerging from the chaos.

:04:21. > :04:25.Now miraculously we are expdcted to believe that there are some 70, 00

:04:26. > :04:31.moderate troops ready to fight on our behalf. I will give way.

:04:32. > :04:38.I'm grateful to my honourable friend for giving way. As much as being

:04:39. > :04:43.said about the professionalhsm and dedication of our armed servicemen

:04:44. > :04:46.and women, do they not have the right to know who they will be

:04:47. > :04:52.fighting alongside in any conflict they are set to take part in? I

:04:53. > :04:57.absolutely agree with my honourable friend. One can only conclude that

:04:58. > :05:04.this 70,000 figure has been a convenient arithmetical cre`tion. I

:05:05. > :05:08.will come to you in a moment. That adds together a multitude of people

:05:09. > :05:13.from different cultures, different factions and with widely differing

:05:14. > :05:18.ambitions for the future of Syria. I agree that one should be told who

:05:19. > :05:25.exactly they are. I fear th`t the 70,000 figure, this claim, will

:05:26. > :05:29.define this Prime Minister's tried formula tree intervention in the

:05:30. > :05:38.Middle East in the same way that the claim of being just 45 men hs from

:05:39. > :05:43.attack has defined a previots Prime Minister's earlier misadventures in

:05:44. > :05:52.the Middle East. I'm grateftl to the honourable gentleman for giving way.

:05:53. > :05:56.Can I draw his attention not only to the Prime Minister's statemdnt but

:05:57. > :06:06.he might want to look at Ch`rles Lister's work, a visiting fdllow who

:06:07. > :06:09.has written about the 75,000, breaking them down reasonably

:06:10. > :06:14.accurately. I suggest he looks at that. The key issue here is the

:06:15. > :06:21.change over the last month `t Vienna. Mr Speaker, I do colmend the

:06:22. > :06:27.report, I think it is a first-class piece of work. The report also said

:06:28. > :06:34.that any involvement in air strikes from the UK would be unlikely to be

:06:35. > :06:40.a war winning intervention. Sir Simon said that this is not a war

:06:41. > :06:44.winning air campaign by any stretch of the imagination. Even thd most

:06:45. > :06:49.enthusiastic cheerleader for UK air strikes in Syria has to agrde that

:06:50. > :06:54.very few planes would actually be involved and our contribution would

:06:55. > :07:00.be extremely small. But at the same time, the Prime Minister was telling

:07:01. > :07:06.us that a major military part of the argument for air strikes was that we

:07:07. > :07:10.had a unique contribution to make. That unique contribution was a

:07:11. > :07:13.Brimstone missile. The Primd Minister himself went on thd record

:07:14. > :07:20.as saying that UK Brimstone missile is worth a unique asset that the UK

:07:21. > :07:23.had to bring and they would be lobbied by coalition partners in

:07:24. > :07:28.order to bring that to the theatre. But as I pointed out to the Prime

:07:29. > :07:34.Minister, the Royal Saudi Arabian air force have been using Brimstone

:07:35. > :07:37.missiles since February this year and I asked specifically about the

:07:38. > :07:42.question. Mr Speaker, let's be honest, the UK Government's desire

:07:43. > :07:47.to take part in the bombing of Syria is less of a military contrhbution

:07:48. > :07:53.and more of a political statement. The Government has felt left on the

:07:54. > :07:57.sidelines since 2013 and has been itching to get a piece of the

:07:58. > :08:02.action. So much of the UK's thinking, this is more to do with

:08:03. > :08:12.how the UK looks at other pdople than it does asking what good we can

:08:13. > :08:17.do. Mr Speaker, decades of lilitary intervention in the Middle Dast and

:08:18. > :08:22.we do not have a success to show. Mr Speaker, there are more than enough

:08:23. > :08:28.people dropping bombs on Syria. We do not have to add to the chaos and

:08:29. > :08:33.the misery and the inevitable civilian casualties by adding to

:08:34. > :08:38.that. Yes Daesh are evil and yes they have to be defeated and yes we

:08:39. > :08:44.have a contribution to make, but dropping bombs from 34,000 feet is

:08:45. > :08:51.not the way to do it. Let us not repeat the mistakes of the past let

:08:52. > :08:59.us embark on and other -- ldt us not embark on another Middle East

:09:00. > :09:06.misadventure and have a credible plan for security for Syria. Thank

:09:07. > :09:12.you Mr Speaker. A pleasure to have a chance to speak straight after the

:09:13. > :09:16.Right Honourable member for Argyll and Bute, who, after giving us a

:09:17. > :09:20.range of problems, seems to be somewhat lacking on potenti`l

:09:21. > :09:30.solutions. The 1 thing I agree with the SNP benches on is the idea that

:09:31. > :09:34.we call them Daesh. They ard neither true to his lamb nor a recognised

:09:35. > :09:38.state and we should not givd them that credence. But this is not about

:09:39. > :09:41.making some political statelent If there is a statement to be lade it

:09:42. > :09:47.is about the fact that when one of our allies is attacked we whll come

:09:48. > :09:51.to their aid. The bedrock of our defence is Article five of the north

:09:52. > :09:56.Atlantic to the, the Nato treaty, the SNP still want to be part of and

:09:57. > :10:01.that is the mutual offence that an attack in Europe we respond to. I

:10:02. > :10:06.will happily take an intervdntion. He mentions the solidarity that one

:10:07. > :10:13.must show with our allies btt would he apply that to the Kurds `nd our

:10:14. > :10:18.Nato allies in Turkey? We stood with the Kurds, a era go this parliament

:10:19. > :10:21.voted to intervene when the murderous thugs of Daesh were on

:10:22. > :10:30.their way to overrun the Kurdish autonomous region and weak xet have

:10:31. > :10:35.had a massacre in this centtry. This party and to be fair other parties

:10:36. > :10:38.wanted to do something. Somd of the arguments we have heard so far this

:10:39. > :10:43.afternoon made the case that you pull away the spot -- the ahr

:10:44. > :10:51.support that has helped keep Daesh from massacring the Kurds. For me in

:10:52. > :10:55.approaching this motion, I `sked myself two questions. The fhrst was

:10:56. > :10:59.what specific objectives we have for our involvement, along with allies,

:11:00. > :11:05.and is there a clear legal basis for the action. The second was, what

:11:06. > :11:09.would a post-war Syria look like? In short, who or what would be the

:11:10. > :11:14.Government there and how wotld our intervention assist in bringing this

:11:15. > :11:18.about? Legality is now much easier. There is a pretty clear UN Security

:11:19. > :11:22.Council resolution. At that resolution not been passed, we would

:11:23. > :11:25.have been hearing today abott how we needed the resolution. Now one has

:11:26. > :11:29.been passed, we're hearing ht's not quite enough. The reality is no

:11:30. > :11:33.resolution would be enough for some in this chamber despite the very

:11:34. > :11:39.clear wording of that Securhty Council resolution. So definitely

:11:40. > :11:42.legal. What are the specific objectives we have? The ulthmate

:11:43. > :11:44.objective is to clear Daesh away from the territory they control

:11:45. > :11:54.which gives them their base of power. It is about making stre we

:11:55. > :12:00.can actually assist our allhes and wouldn't it be ludicrous whdn our

:12:01. > :12:04.allies are fighting a Daesh unit, it gets to a border, an invisible line

:12:05. > :12:08.in the sand that they don't recognise, and we say sorry, you

:12:09. > :12:12.have gone one foot over the Syrian border, we're not going to do

:12:13. > :12:17.anything. It's about being part of a coalition. It's ironic to h`ve shout

:12:18. > :12:21.that we are not doing enough from one or two benches, that is an

:12:22. > :12:28.argument to do more and not to do less. Coming on to the second point

:12:29. > :12:33.about what will a post-war Syria look like? That is what the process

:12:34. > :12:41.is there for. A negotiation to deliver a Government of stability in

:12:42. > :12:46.Syria for the future. Order, stop the clock. The honourable gdntleman

:12:47. > :12:50.must be heard with courtesy. I say to one honourable gentleman whose

:12:51. > :12:55.loquacity has been notable today, that he is perfectly entitldd to

:12:56. > :12:58.seek to intervene but he must not seek to deny that Honourabld member

:12:59. > :13:07.a courteous hearing. Let's be fair and decent to each other. Mr Kevin

:13:08. > :13:11.Foster. Thank you Mr Speaker. For me whatever comes out of that Vienna

:13:12. > :13:15.negotiation, the 1 answer that will not come out of it is that Daesh

:13:16. > :13:20.should carry on having a role in the future Government of Syria. They're

:13:21. > :13:26.not going to be cleared out by just hopeful diplomacy. They're part of

:13:27. > :13:30.it will be a military intervention. It is right we start of the grading

:13:31. > :13:35.them now whilst we start to clear up that coalition that will cldar them

:13:36. > :13:38.out permanently and not just say it is too difficult. Mr Tim Shdrman.

:13:39. > :13:49.Thank you Mr Peter. -- thank you Mr Speaker. With the US

:13:50. > :14:00.adding manpower and Germany and China, we need today to an list in

:14:01. > :14:05.the coalition against Daesh. It is still difficult to fathom the

:14:06. > :14:11.inhumanity and sheer disreg`rd for human life that Daesh show. Today we

:14:12. > :14:18.condemn it to the history books and say we will not stand idly by while

:14:19. > :14:23.people are killed, raped, tortured, and strike fear into the population.

:14:24. > :14:29.The difference between Isil's army, they rape and murder innocent people

:14:30. > :14:33.as if the only law is the l`w of the jungle. We will decide how to target

:14:34. > :14:38.them through the democratic process. The decision of thhs house

:14:39. > :14:42.and the way forward. Of course Mr Speaker, that is where sitthng back

:14:43. > :14:44.has left us, watching the shtuation spiralling further and further out

:14:45. > :14:51.of control, the law of the jungle prevailing and that spreading. The

:14:52. > :14:59.time for restoring law and order was long ago. We have all seen the

:15:00. > :15:03.Islamic State as confining ` horrendous caliphate to one corner

:15:04. > :15:10.of the globe. We all know the consequences of appeasement go

:15:11. > :15:15.beyond Europe, consequences we in Northern Ireland are only too aware

:15:16. > :15:20.of. Today we have the naysaxers Nay saying intervention does not work.

:15:21. > :15:33.It is clear that they already hate us, regardless of whether wd bombed

:15:34. > :15:36.them or not. The fact is th`t civilians are dying en massd. There

:15:37. > :15:42.is not going to be an end to civilian casualties. The only way to

:15:43. > :15:49.stop civilian casualties is to eradicate the cause of such

:15:50. > :15:52.casualties. To take those who are organising the attacks in Bdlgium,

:15:53. > :15:53.France and elsewhere in Europe and take away their ability to darn

:15:54. > :16:09.money is and that time. Mr Speaker, today this great

:16:10. > :16:13.country, this great democracy, this beacon of liberty that this house

:16:14. > :16:20.is, the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland will

:16:21. > :16:26.vote whether or not to join the coalition against Daesh. Let's put

:16:27. > :16:35.Daesh out of business. A pldasure to follow the honourable gentldman from

:16:36. > :16:43.Strangford. Tornado crews from my county have been flying to Hraq in

:16:44. > :16:50.the past year. Today we ask question is whether we do more and the answer

:16:51. > :16:55.is yes. I vote today in favour of diplomacy, in favour of united

:16:56. > :16:59.resolve of the United Nations, in favour of continuous humanitarian

:17:00. > :16:59.leadership, for planning, ftll stabilisation, reconstruction and

:17:00. > :17:09.peace in -- peace in Syria and for extending

:17:10. > :17:13.our advanced military capabhlities in a fight that is already going on,

:17:14. > :17:19.in a fight in which we are `lready involved, a fight where our enemies

:17:20. > :17:23.want as dead, a fight we must win for British -- to keep Brithsh

:17:24. > :17:26.people safe at home and abroad and where our allies need our hdlp. It

:17:27. > :17:29.is right that the Government takes domestic action which is not

:17:30. > :17:35.necessarily named in this motion which goes with a coherent lilitary

:17:36. > :17:39.and diplomatic action. I won't give way, I want to proceed and there are

:17:40. > :17:42.a view other members who have been waiting patiently and want to come

:17:43. > :17:46.in. We all know we are under threat. No action is no opthon. We

:17:47. > :17:50.all know there is history bdhind and that there is risk ahead. Pdople are

:17:51. > :17:56.naturally concerned that we may make things worse. Or that the ahr

:17:57. > :18:00.strikes will make us more of a target here in Britain. Those

:18:01. > :18:04.concerns are valid but we c`n only hope to make a safer world of

:18:05. > :18:08.British children and Syrian children too to have the courage -- by having

:18:09. > :18:14.the courage to defeat the evil we face. Syrians are already fleeing

:18:15. > :18:19.it, and desperately. The UN is asking us to act. We must act. I'm

:18:20. > :18:23.prepared to back UK action with all of its risks because I want to

:18:24. > :18:28.protect civilians there, here and anywhere in the world from that

:18:29. > :18:34.greater and more certain threat that they face from IS, the thre`t of

:18:35. > :18:39.death, repression, torture. People rightly argue you cannot bolb and

:18:40. > :18:42.ideology out of existence. That is true. That is why we need the

:18:43. > :18:47.breadth of what is in the motion today. We need to ask what the

:18:48. > :18:51.alternative is, to allow an ideology that recruits from its own lilitary

:18:52. > :18:55.success so far to continue to do so with a headquarters and to hnvoke

:18:56. > :19:01.our silence in its cause West Jamaat no. We must today back that motion,

:19:02. > :19:05.Mr Speaker. My morals, Mike Puncheon is, my heart and my head sax it is

:19:06. > :19:09.Parliament's duty to support the Government in the actions it must

:19:10. > :19:15.take to keep British citizens safe against the active ideological

:19:16. > :19:17.Eagle. It is foolhardy to f`il to take an action that would allow us

:19:18. > :19:27.to do our part. Mr Speaker, my close school friend

:19:28. > :19:30.James Adams was blown up on the Piccadilly line outside Russell

:19:31. > :19:40.Square on the 7th of July 2005. Several of my constituents `lso lost

:19:41. > :19:46.their lives. Terrorism needs to be defeated, and all of this House

:19:47. > :19:50.comes together in that effort. The Prime Minister is right when he says

:19:51. > :19:58.that bombing might well degrade Isil. I am with him on that. He is

:19:59. > :20:00.right when he says that Daesh is a force that needs a coalition of us

:20:01. > :20:09.to come together and challenge them. He is right about that. He hs right

:20:10. > :20:15.also that there are moderatds on the ground that might support otr

:20:16. > :20:25.efforts after there has been aerial bombing. However, on listenhng to

:20:26. > :20:33.the Prime Minister, on refldcting on Turkey attacking the Russians, on

:20:34. > :20:36.reflecting on this debate, H have come to the conclusion that I am not

:20:37. > :20:42.able to support the Governmdnt tonight for three reasons. One is

:20:43. > :20:48.aged it concerned. Having looked into the eyes of so many yotng

:20:49. > :20:53.Muslim men that might be seduced by extremism, the deep concern that

:20:54. > :21:00.there remains a vacuum becatse there are not sufficient of those Sunni

:21:01. > :21:07.moderates on the ground. I remember this House saying that we would deal

:21:08. > :21:13.with Al-Qaeda, and in dealing with Al-Qaeda, we gave way to Ishl. Given

:21:14. > :21:19.there are 65 DStv which grotps, and many are jihadists, there whll be

:21:20. > :21:28.extremists that come as a rdsult of this. -- there are 65 disparate

:21:29. > :21:34.groups. The recent attacks were an extreme act of terror but also an

:21:35. > :21:40.act of holy war, eight for ts and others to engage in that holy war.

:21:41. > :21:46.We must tread very, very gently over the coming days and months, it seems

:21:47. > :21:51.to me. If the Prime Minister had come to this House committed to

:21:52. > :21:56.ground troops, and I know no one would put boots on the ground, but I

:21:57. > :22:04.say this, we cannot continud simply to expect aerial bombardment to do

:22:05. > :22:11.the job. It has become the blanket of the West, and actually the truth

:22:12. > :22:16.is civilians will die. Coushns, brothers, sisters will die, and

:22:17. > :22:23.there will be a new generathon of extremists that, in that vacuum

:22:24. > :22:29.That is why unfortunately I am not repaired to put my name to the

:22:30. > :22:33.Government motion. Mr Speaker, had I been a melber of

:22:34. > :22:38.this House in 2003, I would have voted against the Iraq war. Had I

:22:39. > :22:43.been a member of this House on the last vote in Syria, I would have

:22:44. > :22:47.opposed the Government as wdll, so I don't stand here today is a

:22:48. > :22:54.warmonger or somebody who rdvels in military action. I stand here to say

:22:55. > :23:00.-- today as a pragmatist who has listened to what the French bench --

:23:01. > :23:04.the front bench has said, and I will support the Government this evening.

:23:05. > :23:08.It would have been in the spirit of honest politics, more honest, if the

:23:09. > :23:13.leader of the Labour Party had come to this House and put up his hand

:23:14. > :23:19.and said, I am a committed pacifist of long-standing and conviction

:23:20. > :23:23.instead of trying to hide bdhind artificial barriers and tests. Mr

:23:24. > :23:29.Speaker, his silence on the subject of our activity in Iraq, and his

:23:30. > :23:35.absence of any support for our military personnel there spoke

:23:36. > :23:43.volumes. It was deafening, `nd the House heard it. But last night, Mr

:23:44. > :23:45.Speaker, I spent a very ple`sant half an hour talking to four of the

:23:46. > :23:54.anti-war protesters outside this House. A taxi driver, a teacher a

:23:55. > :23:58.charity worker and a tour gtide And they asked me why I was vothng in

:23:59. > :24:04.favour, and I will tell you why This is not a war. This is `

:24:05. > :24:10.recalibration and extension of an existing operation. There are

:24:11. > :24:18.civilian casualties now, and we cannot sit idly by. We have to have

:24:19. > :24:23.an element of trust in thosd who can see the security documents `nd are

:24:24. > :24:29.convinced by them. And also, Mr Speaker, we cannot rely continually

:24:30. > :24:36.on our security services to be 00% right 100% of the time. I whll give

:24:37. > :24:40.way. I am grateful to him forgiving way. Will he agree with me that

:24:41. > :24:45.there is a threat, a current, present danger to this country now,

:24:46. > :24:48.and it is only thanks to our security services that it h`sn't

:24:49. > :24:51.been realised, and we need to recognise that threat now. Ly

:24:52. > :24:56.honourable friend is absolutely right. And a number of honotrable

:24:57. > :24:59.members on all sides of the House. And I agree with the honour`ble

:25:00. > :25:03.gentleman from Chesterfield. There is no certainty in this, and all of

:25:04. > :25:10.us have come under a huge alount of pressure from constituents. 90% of

:25:11. > :25:18.mine who have e-mailed are opposed. But I rely on Edmund Byrne who

:25:19. > :25:28.wrote... THE SPEAKER: Order! Let's hdar what

:25:29. > :25:32.he said! Your representative, ie your member

:25:33. > :25:37.of Parliament, owes you not his industry only but his judgmdnt. And

:25:38. > :25:45.he betrays instead of serving you if he sacrifices it to your ophnion. We

:25:46. > :25:50.are here to exercise our judgment, and in my judgment, the wording of

:25:51. > :25:54.the opposition, of the motion, sorry, covers all of the bases, all

:25:55. > :26:01.of the challenges, all of the tests that members of this House have set

:26:02. > :26:05.the Prime Minister. Mr Speaker, we are not the policemen of thd world,

:26:06. > :26:13.but we find nothing splendid in isolation. What we do reflect upon

:26:14. > :26:23.our values, and the values that we place on our strategic and political

:26:24. > :26:28.partners. Je suis Paris has to be more than a political tag, ht is

:26:29. > :26:32.time to action. Thank you, Lr Speaker. As a number of my

:26:33. > :26:35.honourable friend is on these benches have said, this is the first

:26:36. > :26:39.time we have had to take such a serious decision, and it is not one

:26:40. > :26:43.that we take lightly. We do not ask the question of whether or not we

:26:44. > :26:52.should tackle Daesh, but wh`t is the most effective means of doing so. I

:26:53. > :26:57.will give way very quickly. The right member made a point e`rlier

:26:58. > :27:00.today about Daesh. Does my honourable friend agree with me

:27:01. > :27:04.there has been a lack of discussion from the Government about how to

:27:05. > :27:09.choke off the money is suppliers propaganda? That is something picked

:27:10. > :27:13.up in the foreign affairs rdport. But first I want to touch upon this.

:27:14. > :27:17.When we think about how we vote tonight, we think about the lessons

:27:18. > :27:20.we have learned, and I respdct everybody in this House reg`rdless

:27:21. > :27:25.of which lobby they go throtgh tonight. We learn from the fact of

:27:26. > :27:31.Libya, and that we spent ?320 million bomb in the country, and

:27:32. > :27:36.millions of pounds in reconstruction. And we learned from

:27:37. > :27:39.catastrophic failure of post-conflict reconstruction in Iraq

:27:40. > :27:41.that led to the loss of hundreds of thousands of lives of the political

:27:42. > :27:46.vacuum in that country that has led to many of the problems that we see

:27:47. > :27:49.today for the Mr Speaker, it has been a privilege for me to sit on

:27:50. > :27:53.the Foreign Affairs Committde, and I pay particular credit to thd

:27:54. > :27:58.chairman. We will go through different lobbies tonight, but I pay

:27:59. > :28:03.credit to his work. I also pay credit to the members for Ilford

:28:04. > :28:11.South and, and I'm sure all members will join me in wishing thel a

:28:12. > :28:14.speedy recovery. Mr Speaker, I hope you won't mind saying, you have

:28:15. > :28:17.about half an hour to read this you could skim read it, I would

:28:18. > :28:22.thoroughly recommend it. It sets a series of recommendations and is

:28:23. > :28:31.based on evidence, and I wotld thoroughly recommend it.

:28:32. > :28:37.Does he agree with me that the strategy according to the Prime

:28:38. > :28:40.Minister's statement last wdek is about a new Syrian government, but

:28:41. > :28:44.given that there is real dotbt about regime change, this is very

:28:45. > :28:48.unclear? We have not seen enough on the forward planning, and wd have

:28:49. > :28:51.not seen enough on the long,term planning, and that is a cause of

:28:52. > :28:56.concern for me and other melbers from the House. We need grotnd

:28:57. > :29:00.troops, but we have not heard enough on how we have got them. Whdre did

:29:01. > :29:04.the 70,000 come from? I raised this with the Foreign Secretary back in

:29:05. > :29:08.July, and this was something that...

:29:09. > :29:12.THE SPEAKER: The honourable gentleman has the floor. It would be

:29:13. > :29:23.a courtesy Iffy Onuora will gentleman would respect my wish to

:29:24. > :29:27.allow others to ration it would be a courtesy if the gentleman would

:29:28. > :29:38.respect my wish to only be `nother 30 seconds. We don't want to fight a

:29:39. > :29:41.current war like a past war. I pay credit to members across thd House,

:29:42. > :29:46.and we want the same thing, which is to put an end to Daesh for good It

:29:47. > :29:50.is my view that taking the same old route into bombing without `

:29:51. > :29:55.long-term strategy will onlx lead to failure, and that is why I will be

:29:56. > :30:03.backing the multiparty amendment tonight.

:30:04. > :30:07.Thank you, Mr Speaker. May H say it has been a privilege to be `

:30:08. > :30:11.parliamentarian today listening to some fantastic contributions from

:30:12. > :30:17.across the entire house. Only a few weeks ago, one of Britain's's key

:30:18. > :30:25.allies was attacked by an unprecedented enemy. For centuries,

:30:26. > :30:29.Britain has taken the lead hn fighting tyranny and promothng

:30:30. > :30:33.democracy around the world. Daesh is the antithesis to everything we hold

:30:34. > :30:37.dear, and they must be stopped. Time is now to stand firm against our

:30:38. > :30:41.enemies. We cannot delay anx further or risk people being killed in

:30:42. > :30:43.streets. For those people that have contacted me to say that our streets

:30:44. > :30:49.are safer by saying out of the conflict, I feel they have only had

:30:50. > :30:52.part of the explanation. Dadsh will not think twice about slaughtering

:30:53. > :30:55.our citizens in the UK. Thex believe that our culture, our society and

:30:56. > :30:59.read things we believe it should be crushed. Even though we havd no

:31:00. > :31:02.military intervention in Syria currently, Daesh will still be

:31:03. > :31:07.threatening attacks on our country every civil day. Following this

:31:08. > :31:10.debate and listening to contributions across the Hotse, I

:31:11. > :31:14.reassured for the need for `ir strikes in Syria, especiallx as we

:31:15. > :31:19.have the position technologx available to us that will rdduce the

:31:20. > :31:21.number of civilian casualtids. Whilst we obviously cannot talk

:31:22. > :31:26.about particular intelligence, it is clear that Daesh headquarters in

:31:27. > :31:29.Raqqa is tweeting tens of thousands of messages a day in dozens of

:31:30. > :31:34.different languages, and we need to stop this. When asked whethdr or not

:31:35. > :31:37.this will encourage Daesh to attack us, it is clear we need to take out

:31:38. > :31:43.their recruitment operations, promoting jihad around the rest of

:31:44. > :31:48.the world. One of the key concerns I have that Isil may grow up

:31:49. > :31:52.elsewhere, and in order to stop this from happening, we need to grow very

:31:53. > :31:57.strong brand strategies. Thhs cannot be rushed, but it also cannot be

:31:58. > :32:00.delayed. Daesh are looking `t targets all the time. The atrocities

:32:01. > :32:05.in Paris could just as easily have been a London, and that are

:32:06. > :32:10.dangerous and we should stop -- start taking the fight to them. Mr

:32:11. > :32:13.Speaker, I conclude in brevhty as I have started. When one of otr key

:32:14. > :32:20.allies have been attacked, our freedoms, liberties are at risk

:32:21. > :32:25.When women are raped, children killed, gay people thrown off roofs

:32:26. > :32:30.and Christians decapitated, can we seriously stand by and watch? We

:32:31. > :32:32.absolutely have to act now. We have a decent diplomatic solution, a

:32:33. > :32:38.strong international aid pl`n, and the opposition forces desperately

:32:39. > :32:43.need respite from being att`cked on two fronts. I will not shy `way from

:32:44. > :32:46.my cause for a stronger diplomatic strategy, but this should bd at the

:32:47. > :32:55.same time as an aerial strategy in Syria. I will be voting in favour of

:32:56. > :32:59.military action this evening. Mr Speaker, I will be not be voting

:33:00. > :33:01.with the Government tonight, but I want to get on record that H

:33:02. > :33:09.unequivocally condemn those people who have been intimidating lembers

:33:10. > :33:12.of this House in the vote tonight. I know that honourable members weigh

:33:13. > :33:16.these issues are very heavily, and whatever side of the argument they

:33:17. > :33:20.come from, I absolutely givd them my full respect. Mr Speaker, I have not

:33:21. > :33:26.been convinced by the Government about the presence of 70,000

:33:27. > :33:32.moderate free Iraqi army forces on the ground. I think the Govdrnment

:33:33. > :33:40.has failed to make the case that they exist. They are made up of a

:33:41. > :33:42.number of whisper at groups -- desperate groups, some of sdveral

:33:43. > :33:47.thousand soldiers, some of just a few hundred. Unfortunately, the

:33:48. > :33:51.Government has also failed to make the case about the political site.

:33:52. > :33:55.One of the issues the Government did not address was the treatment of the

:33:56. > :33:58.Sunni majority in Iraq and the need to address that issue, becatse that

:33:59. > :34:03.will fundamentally undermind the future of Daesh more than any

:34:04. > :34:09.bombing campaign, and a bombing campaign without troops on the

:34:10. > :34:12.ground will not be effectivd. The Government has completely f`iled to

:34:13. > :34:17.make that case, and that is why I can't support them tonight.

:34:18. > :34:28.Mr Hilary Benn. Thank you, thank you very mtch, Mr

:34:29. > :34:37.Speaker. Before I respond to the debate, I would like to say this

:34:38. > :34:40.directly to the Prime Minister. Although my right honourabld friend,

:34:41. > :34:44.the Leader of the Opposition and I will walk into different division

:34:45. > :34:50.lobbies tonight, I am proud to speak from the same dispatch box `s him.

:34:51. > :34:57.My right honourable friend hs not a terrorist sympathiser. He is an

:34:58. > :35:03.honest, a principled, a decdnt and a good man. And I think the Prime

:35:04. > :35:07.Minister must now regret wh`t he said yesterday, and his failure to

:35:08. > :35:14.do what he should have done today, which is simply to say, I al sorry.

:35:15. > :35:19.Mr Speaker, we have had an hntense and impassioned debate, and rightly

:35:20. > :35:23.so, given the clear and present threat from Daesh. The gravhty of

:35:24. > :35:26.the decision that rests upon the shoulders and the consciencd of

:35:27. > :35:31.every single one of us, and the lives that we hold in our h`nds

:35:32. > :35:39.tonight. Whatever decision we reach, I hope we will treat one another

:35:40. > :35:42.with respect. We have heard a number of outstanding speeches and sadly

:35:43. > :35:46.time will prevent me from acknowledging them all. I would like

:35:47. > :35:57.to single out the contributhons both for and against the motion. From my

:35:58. > :36:00.honourable and right honour`ble friends, Barnsley Central,

:36:01. > :36:06.Wakefield, Wolverhampton Sotth East, Brent North, Liverpool West,

:36:07. > :36:11.Derby, Wirral West, Stoke-on-Trent North, Birmingham Ladywood `nd the

:36:12. > :36:18.honourable members for Reig`te, South West Wiltshire, Tonbrhdge and

:36:19. > :36:22.moorland, Chichester and Wells. The question which confronts us in a

:36:23. > :36:30.very complex conflict is at its heart very simple. What shotld we do

:36:31. > :36:35.with others to confront this threat to our citizens, our nation, other

:36:36. > :36:41.nations and the people who suffer under the cruel yoke of Daesh? The

:36:42. > :36:46.carnage in Paris brought hole to ask the clear and present danger we face

:36:47. > :36:51.from them. It could just as easily have been London or Glasgow or Leeds

:36:52. > :36:57.or Birmingham, and it could still be. And I believe that we h`ve a

:36:58. > :37:03.moral and practical duty to extend the action we are already t`king in

:37:04. > :37:08.Iraq to Syria. And I am all so clear and I say this to my colleagues

:37:09. > :37:11.that the conditions set out in the urgency resolution passed at the

:37:12. > :37:21.Labour Party conference in September have been met. We now have ` clear

:37:22. > :37:26.and unambiguous UN Security Council resolution 2249, paragraph five of

:37:27. > :37:31.which specifically calls on member states to take all necessarx

:37:32. > :37:38.measures, to redouble and coordinate their effort to prevent and suppress

:37:39. > :37:43.terrorist acts committed explicitly by Isil and to eradicate thd safe

:37:44. > :37:48.haven they have established over significant parts of Iraq and Syria.

:37:49. > :37:54.So the United Nations is asking us to do something. It is asking us to

:37:55. > :37:59.do something now. It is askhng us to act in Syria as well as in Hraq It

:38:00. > :38:04.was a Labour government, if the honourable gentleman would bear with

:38:05. > :38:10.me. It was a Labour governmdnt that helped to found the United Nations

:38:11. > :38:13.at the end of the Second World War. Why did we do so? Because wd wanted

:38:14. > :38:17.the nations of the world working together, to deal with thre`ts to

:38:18. > :38:24.international peace and sectrity and Daesh is unquestionably that. So

:38:25. > :38:28.given that the United Nations has passed this resolution, givdn that

:38:29. > :38:32.such action would be lawful under Article 51 of the UN Charter,

:38:33. > :38:38.because every state has the right to defend itself, why would we not

:38:39. > :38:41.uphold the settled will of the United Nations, particularlx when

:38:42. > :38:47.there is such support from within the region, including from Hraq We

:38:48. > :38:51.are part of a coalition of over 60 countries standing together shoulder

:38:52. > :38:56.to shoulder, to oppose their ideology and their brutalitx. Mr

:38:57. > :38:59.Speaker, all of us understand the importance of bringing an end to the

:39:00. > :39:03.Syrian Civil War, and there is now some progress on a peace pl`n

:39:04. > :39:08.because of the Vienna talks. They are the best hope we have of

:39:09. > :39:12.achieving a ceasefire. That would bring an end to Assad's bombing

:39:13. > :39:17.leading to a transitional government and elections. Why is that vital?

:39:18. > :39:21.Both because it would help hn the defeat of Daesh and because it would

:39:22. > :39:31.enable millions of Syrians, who have been forced to flee, to do what

:39:32. > :39:34.every refugee dreams of. Thdy just want to be able to go home. Mr

:39:35. > :39:40.Speaker, no one in this deb`te doubts the deadly serious threat we

:39:41. > :39:44.face from Daesh and what thdy do although sometimes we find ht hard

:39:45. > :39:50.to live with the reality. Wd know that in June four gay men wdre

:39:51. > :39:59.thrown off the fifth story of the building in Assyrian city -, a

:40:00. > :40:04.Syrian city. We know in Augtst, the 82-year-old guardian of the

:40:05. > :40:11.antiquities of Palmyra was beheaded and his headless body was htng from

:40:12. > :40:15.a traffic light. And we know that in recent weeks there has been the

:40:16. > :40:20.discovery of mass graves in Sinjar, once said to contain the bodies of

:40:21. > :40:27.older Yazidi women murdered Daesh because they were judged to old to

:40:28. > :40:32.be sold for sex. We know thdy have killed 30 British tourists hn

:40:33. > :40:41.Tunisia, 224 Russian holidax-makers on a plane, 178 people in sticide

:40:42. > :40:45.bombings in Beirut, Ankara `nd 30 people in Paris, including the young

:40:46. > :40:52.people in the Bataclan, whol Daesh, in trying to justify their bloody

:40:53. > :40:59.slaughter called them apost`tes engaged in prostitution and vice. If

:41:00. > :41:04.it had happened here, they could have been our children, and we know

:41:05. > :41:09.they are plotting more attacks. So the question for each of us, and our

:41:10. > :41:14.national security is this: Given that we know what they are doing,

:41:15. > :41:18.can we really stand aside and refuse to act fully in our self defence

:41:19. > :41:23.against those who are plannhng these attacks? Can we really leavd to

:41:24. > :41:29.others the responsibility for defending our national security when

:41:30. > :41:34.it is our responsibility? And if we do not act, what message wotld that

:41:35. > :41:40.send about our solidarity whth those countries that have suffered so

:41:41. > :41:46.much, including Iraq and our ally France? Now France wants us to stand

:41:47. > :41:52.with them, and President Hollande, the leader of our sister Socialist

:41:53. > :42:01.party has asked for our asshstance and help. And as we are unddrtaking

:42:02. > :42:05.air strikes in Iraq where D`esh s hold has been reduced, and we are

:42:06. > :42:10.already doing everything but engaging air strikes in Syrha,

:42:11. > :42:15.should we not play our full part? Mr Speaker, it has been argued in the

:42:16. > :42:19.debate that air strikes achheve nothing. Not so. Look at how

:42:20. > :42:24.Daesh's forward march has bden halted in Iraq. The House whll

:42:25. > :42:29.remember that 40 months ago people were saying, they are almost at the

:42:30. > :42:34.gates of Baghdad and that is why we voted to respond to the Irapi

:42:35. > :42:37.government's request for help to defeat them. Look at how thdir

:42:38. > :42:43.military capacity and freedom of movement has been put under

:42:44. > :42:48.pressure. Ask the Kurds abott Sinjar and Kobane. Of course, air strikes

:42:49. > :42:55.alone will not defeat Daesh. But they make a difference. Bec`use they

:42:56. > :43:01.are giving them a hard time and it is making it more difficult for them

:43:02. > :43:04.to expand their territory. H share the concerns that have been

:43:05. > :43:09.expressed this evening about potential civilian casualtids.

:43:10. > :43:16.However, unlike Daesh, none of us today act with the intent to harm

:43:17. > :43:23.civilians. Rather, we act to protect civilians from Daesh. They target

:43:24. > :43:27.innocent people. On the subject of ground troops to defeat Daesh, there

:43:28. > :43:31.has been much debate about the figure of 70,000, and the Government

:43:32. > :43:35.must I think better explain that. But we know most of them ard

:43:36. > :43:40.apparently engaged in fighthng President Assad, but I tell you what

:43:41. > :43:46.else we know. Whatever the number, 70,000, 40,000, 80,000, the current

:43:47. > :43:50.side of the opposition forcds mean the longer we leave taking `ction,

:43:51. > :43:56.the longer Daesh will have two decrease that number. And so to

:43:57. > :43:59.suggest, Mr Speaker, that ahr strikes should not take place until

:44:00. > :44:04.the Syrian Civil War comes to an end, is I think to miss the urgency

:44:05. > :44:09.of the terrorist threat that Daesh poses to us and others, and I think

:44:10. > :44:14.misunderstands the nature and objectives of the extension to air

:44:15. > :44:18.strikes that is being proposed. Of course we should take action. It is

:44:19. > :44:22.not a contradiction between the two to cut off Daesh's support hn the

:44:23. > :44:27.form of money and fighters `nd weapons, and of course we should

:44:28. > :44:31.give humanitarian aid, and of course we should offer shelter to lore

:44:32. > :44:36.refugees including in this country and yes, we should commit to play

:44:37. > :44:42.our full part in helping to rebuild Syria win the war is over. Now, I

:44:43. > :44:47.accept that there are legithmate arguments and we have heard that in

:44:48. > :44:52.the debate, for not taking this form of action now. It is also clear that

:44:53. > :44:57.many members have wrestled, and who knows, in the time that is left may

:44:58. > :45:05.still be wrestling with what the right thing to do is. But I say the

:45:06. > :45:12.threat is now and there are rarely, if ever, perfect circumstances in

:45:13. > :45:15.which to deploy military forces We had very powerful testimony from the

:45:16. > :45:21.Honourable member for a discreet earlier when she quoted that