03/12/2015

:00:00. > :00:00.provisions. The clerk will proceed to read the orders of the day. --

:00:07. > :00:10.83J. I call the Minister to move the

:00:11. > :00:15.second reading Bill, Minister Matthew Hancock.

:00:16. > :00:19.Thank you, Mr Speaker and I beg to move that the bill now be read a

:00:20. > :00:24.second time. Mr Speaker, every honourable member will know of the

:00:25. > :00:29.charity or of charities doing extraordinary work in their

:00:30. > :00:35.constituency and you may well as well. Many have served and will

:00:36. > :00:40.serve as patrons or trustees or may even have subjected themselves to

:00:41. > :00:46.ritual humiliation to raise money and awareness. I myself, Madam

:00:47. > :00:50.Deputy Speaker, have dressed up as a sumo wrestler and carried a

:00:51. > :01:00.pedometer for one week. I even lost two stone to raise a charger around

:01:01. > :01:03.Newmarket July course. Charities help us cope with difficulties,

:01:04. > :01:07.sickness of mind and body, entrenched poverty, natural

:01:08. > :01:11.disaster. So often they be bilby that we in government should

:01:12. > :01:16.follow. Long before there was an education at, NHS or welfare state,

:01:17. > :01:20.there were holes are set up by charities who knew that people could

:01:21. > :01:27.not wait. To date their compassion and kindness is matched with ideas

:01:28. > :01:30.and innovation. When polymer wire and Robert McGuire posted their

:01:31. > :01:35.first I spotted challenge video the expected to raise around ?500 for

:01:36. > :01:38.the motoneuron disease Association, the campaign went viral and many of

:01:39. > :01:47.us joined in and they ended up raising ?7 million. Although at

:01:48. > :01:49.Bristol Together, a social enterprise that refurbishes

:01:50. > :01:53.properties and uses ex-offenders to carry out the work. It is social

:01:54. > :01:59.investment and it is transforming lives. And we in government are

:02:00. > :02:04.committed to a full civil society, we have detected a budget for civil

:02:05. > :02:07.society. We are expanding the brilliant National Citizen Service,

:02:08. > :02:12.we are rolling out more locally designed social impact bonds. Along

:02:13. > :02:17.with these opportunities, they are also challenges, perhaps more than

:02:18. > :02:23.any other kind of enterprise, charities trade on the reputation,

:02:24. > :02:28.scandals of poor governance or unscrupulous fundraising undermined

:02:29. > :02:33.public trust, tarnishing the vast majority of charities that are well

:02:34. > :02:40.run and only seek to do good. -- polymer wire. I will give way.

:02:41. > :02:44.I could not agree more with the opening remarks of my rate

:02:45. > :02:52.honourable friend, talking about the charity landscape. However, I am a

:02:53. > :02:55.patron of Are not and I am Chancellor of the Prison Reform

:02:56. > :02:59.Trust. Both organisations are concerned, and I hope that my rate

:03:00. > :03:02.honourable friend can be their concerns, that this much needed

:03:03. > :03:06.piece of legislation may make it more difficult for them bearing in

:03:07. > :03:12.mind the subject which interest them, that is to see of the

:03:13. > :03:18.conditions of prisoners, may make it more difficult for them to have on

:03:19. > :03:21.their bodies, on their trustees, the groups, people with criminal

:03:22. > :03:26.convictions. The point is obvious but I am sure my right honourable

:03:27. > :03:29.friend with it. -- Paula McGuire. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, I

:03:30. > :03:38.can give some assurance to my honourable friend, sorry, my

:03:39. > :03:42.honourable and Leonard friend, Mike Right Honourable and learned friend!

:03:43. > :03:48.If you would like to raise it any further I can continue! I can give

:03:49. > :03:54.an assurance, I give him those two charities of wiki is a of that work.

:03:55. > :04:00.While protecting charities through this bill, we also, of course seek

:04:01. > :04:06.to support the good work that excellent charities do. In the case

:04:07. > :04:11.of extra restrictions for those with underspent convictions, those that

:04:12. > :04:17.are proposed in the bill, there is first the ability of the charities

:04:18. > :04:22.commission itself to waive the restrictions of those with

:04:23. > :04:26.underspent convictions and then, as with all of the extra powers of the

:04:27. > :04:35.Charity Commission, there is the ability to appeal to the charity 's

:04:36. > :04:38.tribunal. I hope that he is reassured by the safeguards that are

:04:39. > :04:43.already in this Bill, but I would also hope that we can work with him

:04:44. > :04:48.in order to make sure that they are applied properly two charities that

:04:49. > :04:54.have to do this work in such an important area.

:04:55. > :04:58.I am most grateful to my right honourable friend and he has been

:04:59. > :05:05.extremely clear and helpful. May I make him this one offer? I know the

:05:06. > :05:07.success of Newmarket race -- Newmarket Racecourse, Leicester

:05:08. > :05:13.racecourse in my constituency is very good, if you would like to run

:05:14. > :05:17.there, please let me know! I am grateful for that unexpected

:05:18. > :05:25.invitation and I would dearly like or attempted to do that. I'm not and

:05:26. > :05:31.the Prison Reform Trust will work with Austin Mitchell that this Bill

:05:32. > :05:35.is passed. Moving more broadly on to the question of supporting the

:05:36. > :05:40.reputation of charities, scandals of poor governance or unscrupulous

:05:41. > :05:45.fundraising undermined public trust, as I have said. By one

:05:46. > :05:50.measure, trust in the sector is at a civil year ago and it is in all of

:05:51. > :05:53.our interest to make sure that we have a strong and confident and

:05:54. > :05:59.thriving charity sector. The purpose of this Bill is twofold. Firstly to

:06:00. > :06:04.tackle the challenges and to unlock new opportunities, and if I may,

:06:05. > :06:08.Madam Deputy Speaker, I will turn and go through the main provisions

:06:09. > :06:12.of this Bill. There are three main areas, firstly strengthening the

:06:13. > :06:17.Charity Commission powers, including over trustee disqualification.

:06:18. > :06:20.Secondly, the regulation of charity fundraising and thirdly, a new

:06:21. > :06:23.social investment power for charities. The first part of the

:06:24. > :06:28.bill relates to the Charity Commission's powers, let me turn to

:06:29. > :06:35.that. The purpose of the Charity Commission is to ensure that each of

:06:36. > :06:37.the 164,000 charities in England and Wales bursaries its charity

:06:38. > :06:43.objectives. Set up in 1853, it has done a century and a half of good

:06:44. > :06:46.work, about two years ago both the national audit of this and the

:06:47. > :06:50.Public Accounts Committee found that the Charity Commission was failing

:06:51. > :06:55.in its core duty, and in particular, that it was not doing enough to

:06:56. > :07:00.tackle the abuse of charity status. The NAO made a series of

:07:01. > :07:02.recommendations to improve the commission's effectiveness and based

:07:03. > :07:06.on this the Coalition Government published proposals for new powers,

:07:07. > :07:11.following a public consultation of the draft bill and it was published.

:07:12. > :07:14.The legislative scrutiny and bills passing through the has resulted in

:07:15. > :07:18.further refinement and I would like to take this opportunity to thank

:07:19. > :07:22.all those members, peers and others who have helped improve the bill

:07:23. > :07:27.that we present to the House today. These measures are just one part of

:07:28. > :07:31.the wider programme of reform aimed at turning the Charity Commission

:07:32. > :07:38.into a tough, clear and proactive regulator.

:07:39. > :07:45.It pains me to point out that he has left out the very significant

:07:46. > :07:48.scrutiny or post-legislative scrutiny on the existing pact

:07:49. > :07:51.conducted by my own committee at the last part of the demonstration

:07:52. > :07:59.Select Committee, which really was the prime precursor of the bill, and

:08:00. > :08:00.I personally sat on the joint committee which did the

:08:01. > :08:06.pre-legislative scrutiny of the current bill. But could he tell us

:08:07. > :08:15.something about recent controversies around, for example, charity

:08:16. > :08:17.fundraising, where we Arnold very frustrated that are conducting

:08:18. > :08:19.significant inquiries which the regulator, the charities commission

:08:20. > :08:22.should be conducting, but the should be conducting, but the

:08:23. > :08:26.Charity Commission does not necessarily have the powers to hold

:08:27. > :08:31.these hearings in public in a way that would demonstrate its

:08:32. > :08:35.regulatory role? I was going to come onto the work of

:08:36. > :08:39.honourable friend's work in making honourable friend's work in making

:08:40. > :08:46.sure that we have this Bill in the best possible shape, and I am very

:08:47. > :08:50.grateful for the work that he did at the end of the last Parliament,

:08:51. > :08:55.after the national or that of this report on getting a ball and making

:08:56. > :08:56.sure that we have to build and that it is one that can do what is

:08:57. > :09:08.necessary to make If I can just reply to the

:09:09. > :09:12.substantive point I will then give way. We believe the Charity

:09:13. > :09:19.commission has the power is to convene meetings in public. However,

:09:20. > :09:24.I recognise there is a question on whether it does or not and so I

:09:25. > :09:29.suggest doing the passage of the bill we will take this point in more

:09:30. > :09:33.detail and we are prepared to accept amendments if necessary to accept

:09:34. > :09:39.clarity on the point he makes. I will give way. I agree that

:09:40. > :09:45.legislative and pre-legislative scrutiny are important in this way.

:09:46. > :09:54.Can he say how much legislative scrutiny is being given by Her

:09:55. > :09:58.Majesty's opposition? This is a bill that I hope can unite all sides of

:09:59. > :10:04.the House and I welcome the honourable member opposite. My

:10:05. > :10:11.honourable friend has made the point and it will be clearly shown on the

:10:12. > :10:15.record that I do not want to get into an unnecessary dispute with the

:10:16. > :10:19.opposition given that I hope we will have all-party support for what I

:10:20. > :10:24.hope is an important bill which will strengthen the Charity commission

:10:25. > :10:29.and is ultimately in the best interests of charities throughout

:10:30. > :10:33.the land. On the question of providing that tough, clear and

:10:34. > :10:39.proactive regulator and under the strong and capable leadership of

:10:40. > :10:46.William Shawcross and Paula Sussex, they have put in a method of

:10:47. > :10:50.tackling mismanagement at the regulator needs to have teeth and

:10:51. > :10:56.the commission needs our help to address the gaps and deficiencies in

:10:57. > :11:00.its legal powers. The bill will close these gaps in the

:11:01. > :11:04.commission's capabilities as well as close a number of damaging loopholes

:11:05. > :11:09.in charity law. Let me briefly outline the five new powers will

:11:10. > :11:15.stop these are powers that will help protect the public, staff and people

:11:16. > :11:20.who work in the charities and to ensure we do not seek and they do

:11:21. > :11:24.not see to exploit vulnerable people. First, the Bill will extend

:11:25. > :11:31.the automatic criteria. The current law is on adding people who have

:11:32. > :11:35.misappropriated charitable assets but these criteria are far too

:11:36. > :11:41.narrow so instead we will extend them to include people with unspent

:11:42. > :11:45.convictions as my right honourable friend mentions for

:11:46. > :11:50.money-laundering, bribery, perjury, misconduct in public office and on

:11:51. > :11:55.the sex offenders register and those convicted of terrorism offences

:11:56. > :12:01.including individuals subject to asset freezing. They will be given

:12:02. > :12:04.new powers to disqualify, in instances within individual has

:12:05. > :12:11.behaved in a way that makes them unfit to be HIV to the trust deed

:12:12. > :12:15.acting on a case-by-case basis. This is essential to empower the Charity

:12:16. > :12:20.commission to tackle those who would bring charities into disrepute. I

:12:21. > :12:25.would hope it would be used with care and decisiveness. The bill

:12:26. > :12:31.gives the Charity commission a new official warning power in regards to

:12:32. > :12:35.low-level misconduct. This will allow for a proportionate approach

:12:36. > :12:40.to less serious cases. It allows a new power for the Charity commission

:12:41. > :12:46.to start winding up of a charity which would apply if the commission

:12:47. > :12:51.whose the charity is not operating or its purposes could be promoted

:12:52. > :12:56.more effectively by ceasing to operate and to do so would be in the

:12:57. > :13:00.public interest. This power we believe would be used in very

:13:01. > :13:05.limited circumstances and is subject to several safeguards. The bill

:13:06. > :13:10.closes a loophole that allows offending trustees to resign before

:13:11. > :13:13.been removed by the commission and to act as a trustee for a different

:13:14. > :13:18.charity without fear of repercussions. This would ensure

:13:19. > :13:25.trustees are longer able to escape accountability if the abuse their

:13:26. > :13:30.position of trust. All five of these proposals would be subject to the

:13:31. > :13:34.general duty to have regard to best practice and, with the exception of

:13:35. > :13:39.the officials warning power, all of the officials new powers are subject

:13:40. > :13:44.to the right of appeal to the Charity Tribunal. All five of the

:13:45. > :13:48.measures outlined are essential to protecting the interests and

:13:49. > :13:53.reputation of the vast majority of charities run by people of great

:13:54. > :13:59.integrity. The Charity commission was closely involved in developing

:14:00. > :14:03.the powers and fully supports them. Independent research for the Charity

:14:04. > :14:11.commission found 92% of charities reported new tougher powers for the

:14:12. > :14:17.regulator. We also intend to remove clause nine of the Bill which was

:14:18. > :14:21.added at reports stage in the Lords. We have serious concerns about the

:14:22. > :14:29.unintended consequences of clause nine because it puts complex case

:14:30. > :14:32.law into a single statutory provision and imposes a major new

:14:33. > :14:37.regulation on the commission. Clause nine was not proposed because of

:14:38. > :14:42.concerns about charities in general are in a narrow attempt by the other

:14:43. > :14:46.place to underline the government's manifesto commitment to extend the

:14:47. > :14:51.right to buy. It is regrettable that the bill with widespread support was

:14:52. > :14:56.used in this week and we cannot allow it to stand. I would ask we

:14:57. > :15:01.consider the matter elsewhere. Let me turn to the challenge of

:15:02. > :15:07.regulating charity fundraising which has already been raised. We are one

:15:08. > :15:12.of the most generous countries in the world when it comes to charity

:15:13. > :15:20.fundraising giving. But when people want to give the do not want to be

:15:21. > :15:25.bullied or harassed into doing so. A voluntary donation has to be

:15:26. > :15:31.voluntary. We saw the sad case of Britain's longest serving poppy

:15:32. > :15:36.seller, for years she was harassed with phone calls and calls for money

:15:37. > :15:41.and charities for years had taken her details and swap them with other

:15:42. > :15:49.charities. In one month alone she apparently received 267 charity

:15:50. > :15:52.letters and sadly, since then, more cases of unscrupulous fundraising

:15:53. > :15:58.practices had come to light and we must act. We began I asking for a

:15:59. > :16:03.review of fundraising over the summer backed by a cross-party panel

:16:04. > :16:08.of peers and I want to thank them for their work. He recommended the

:16:09. > :16:11.new tougher framework of self-regulation and we are working

:16:12. > :16:22.with charities to deliver it. The Lord of Yarm I've will review the

:16:23. > :16:26.independent body. It will be able to adjudicate against any organisation

:16:27. > :16:29.undertaking charity fundraising. The body will be accompanied by a

:16:30. > :16:33.fundraising preference service similar to the Telephone preference

:16:34. > :16:40.service which would give the public heater control over their consent to

:16:41. > :16:45.receive fundraising request. Next it would inhibit contract is from

:16:46. > :16:49.raising fundraising attempts unless the contract and explains how they

:16:50. > :16:54.will protect people from undue pressure and set out how compliance

:16:55. > :16:58.will be monitored by the charity and will require large charities to

:16:59. > :17:03.include a section in the trustees annual report about the fundraising

:17:04. > :17:08.undertaken by or on their half. This will include an explanation of how

:17:09. > :17:12.the protect the public in general and vulnerable people in particular

:17:13. > :17:19.from undue pressures and other who practices. I will give way. Can I

:17:20. > :17:28.take this opportunity to inform the House that, of course, the public

:17:29. > :17:31.constitution are fears committee is concluding an enquiry into

:17:32. > :17:40.charitable fundraising alongside the enquiry into Kids Company we are

:17:41. > :17:47.very much concentrating on the conduct of trustees in these matters

:17:48. > :17:51.and the responsibility of trustees to run and oversee and support

:17:52. > :17:57.charitable organisations that reflect their values in their

:17:58. > :18:00.operations as much of the dudes in their objections. We are making

:18:01. > :18:07.recommendations around that because it might be insufficient to rely on

:18:08. > :18:13.processes and instructions to make sure things are F or clay and

:18:14. > :18:17.properly run. I welcome that the review and I hope that during the

:18:18. > :18:23.passage of this bill through this House we can consider and we're

:18:24. > :18:29.appropriate take on board any of the recommendations that improve the

:18:30. > :18:36.bill and I am glad that the work of the committee is happening

:18:37. > :18:38.concurrently and no doubt that recommendations, I hope, can come

:18:39. > :18:45.forward in time for them to be considered for this bill. How can we

:18:46. > :18:53.make more explicit the amount of money spent on management overhead,

:18:54. > :18:58.in particular the 18th two ?120 per direct debit set up that goes to

:18:59. > :19:03.chugging agencies? That needs to be made clear to people as that is an

:19:04. > :19:06.average the first year of any direct debit set up in favour of the

:19:07. > :19:11.charity. At the moment we pull our not clear about how much of their

:19:12. > :19:19.generosity is being expended on management overall and this practice

:19:20. > :19:22.in particular. I am a great fan of transparency and a supporter of

:19:23. > :19:28.transparency across government. I think we should look here fully at

:19:29. > :19:34.whether further transparency can be brought to charities and how it can

:19:35. > :19:38.be best delivered. I have no doubt transparency begins at home for

:19:39. > :19:44.charities and best practice is to be widely transparent right their

:19:45. > :19:47.operations. The is a question on whether we should do more and Ian

:19:48. > :19:51.are balanced arguments in both directions. That is something we

:19:52. > :19:59.should consider as we go through the stages of this bill. I am grateful

:20:00. > :20:05.to him for giving way. Is there something in this new power that

:20:06. > :20:10.gives to charities that apart from the original charity ambitions and

:20:11. > :20:14.disproportionate funding and campaigning organisations? We took

:20:15. > :20:20.action towards the end of the last Parliament in insulating that the

:20:21. > :20:27.legal framework around charities and other organisations, ensures that

:20:28. > :20:33.they do not cross over into direct partisan political work. The reason

:20:34. > :20:37.a review is under way as to how that lobbying ill, the lobbying act in

:20:38. > :20:42.the House had worked, Ian are questions as to whether it needs to

:20:43. > :20:49.go further. The best place to deal with those is indeed a view and

:20:50. > :20:53.scrutiny of the legislation now that it is in action. I understand the

:20:54. > :20:57.concerns that the honourable member, my honourable friend, puts.

:20:58. > :21:02.It is important that the review we have and fully considers the impact

:21:03. > :21:10.that the legislation we passed only in the last year as already

:21:11. > :21:17.happened. We regard the Etherington package in this ill, including the

:21:18. > :21:21.fundraising preference service and a move to opt in for further contact

:21:22. > :21:28.as the minimum necessary to rebuild public trust. We are proposing that

:21:29. > :21:32.this regulation of fundraising happens on a self-regulatory basis

:21:33. > :21:39.but self-regulation must implement the reviews recommendations in full

:21:40. > :21:43.and some people have rightly asked what will happen if self-regulation

:21:44. > :21:49.feels? We want it to work but we are clear practices must change. At

:21:50. > :21:53.committee stage we intend to bring forward amendments that will

:21:54. > :22:00.strengthen the government's powers to intervene if the self-regulation

:22:01. > :22:04.feels. Predatory fundraising targeted at vulnerable people is

:22:05. > :22:05.wrong. It has shaken public confidence in charities and we are

:22:06. > :22:16.determined to stamp it out. I am most grateful to him for being

:22:17. > :22:21.so generous and I regret that I cannot stage take part in this

:22:22. > :22:25.debate. The House will need to know that we're going to produce report

:22:26. > :22:28.in January in good time for the conclusion of this bill. Before he

:22:29. > :22:36.leaves the matter of fundraising, could he bear in mind the concerns

:22:37. > :22:41.that many people have about some charities which raise a substantial

:22:42. > :22:46.part of their income from foreign sources, and that the security

:22:47. > :22:51.services are concerned that this, organisations might posing as

:22:52. > :22:55.charities, might be receiving funds from abroad for nefarious purposes.

:22:56. > :22:59.Is this something that he will perhaps consider bringing in to the

:23:00. > :23:04.Bill to deal with at a later stage in the passage of this Bill, because

:23:05. > :23:08.I know it is something that also concerns the Charity Commission? The

:23:09. > :23:11.chairman of the Select Committee need not apologise, he can intervene

:23:12. > :23:16.on me as many times as he likes and I will always seek to take his

:23:17. > :23:20.interventions. Otherwise he will seek to get me in front of him in

:23:21. > :23:25.some other way! But on the substantive point that he raises,

:23:26. > :23:32.and this is a concern that has been raised with us, and we want to look

:23:33. > :23:37.at it in more detail, and consider the matter as the Bill passes

:23:38. > :23:41.through the House. I want now to move on to the opportunities that

:23:42. > :23:48.were trying to open up in this Bill. We want to allow charities to fulfil

:23:49. > :23:51.their mission by providing a new power of social investment. Social

:23:52. > :23:56.investment seeks a positive social impact and a financial return,

:23:57. > :24:01.trying to make money go further. It is a huge and growing chance for UK

:24:02. > :24:07.charities to make more of their assets in a field where the UK is

:24:08. > :24:10.already the world leader. In 2014, the Law Commission conducted a

:24:11. > :24:14.review of charities' social investment powers. They found a lack

:24:15. > :24:22.of clarity around charities' social investment powers and duties, and

:24:23. > :24:25.concluded this could be deterring some charities from getting involved

:24:26. > :24:28.in what I think is an exciting new field. UK charities currently hold

:24:29. > :24:32.assets of over ?80 billion, but they have only made social investment of

:24:33. > :24:36.around ?100 million. And we think that with the right support that

:24:37. > :24:40.market could double over the next few years. This Bill will ensure

:24:41. > :24:45.that more charities have a chance to take full advantage of social

:24:46. > :24:47.investment, should they so wish. It removes the existing uncertainty by

:24:48. > :24:53.providing us with the civic new power to make social investments. --

:24:54. > :24:57.by providing a specific new power. It insures that also shall

:24:58. > :25:00.investments are made in the best interests of the charity, allowing

:25:01. > :25:04.charities to make investments with the jewel aide of achieving their

:25:05. > :25:07.mission and four following a financial return. It is the way of

:25:08. > :25:11.the future, and it is happening here in Britain, and we want and

:25:12. > :25:15.supported to go further. Madam Deputy Speaker, the work that

:25:16. > :25:19.charities do transcends politics and unites all sides of this House. We

:25:20. > :25:24.want all charities to enjoy the very highest level of public trust and

:25:25. > :25:29.esteem, and the generosity this brings. By delivering a more

:25:30. > :25:33.effective regulator, by tackling unscrupulous fundraising and by

:25:34. > :25:36.unleashing the power of social investment, this Bill will

:25:37. > :25:40.strengthen that trust, and allow charities to do more with that

:25:41. > :25:50.generosity. And I commend it to the House. The question is that the Bill

:25:51. > :25:55.be now read a second time. An attorney. It is my privilege to

:25:56. > :26:03.respond to this bill at its second reading, as shadow civil society

:26:04. > :26:07.Minister. I would like to thank them for the open and corporative way in

:26:08. > :26:10.which they have sought to engage with us. I would like to thank all

:26:11. > :26:13.the civil servants involved in drafting this bill, and all these

:26:14. > :26:18.charities and organisations who have contributed to it development and to

:26:19. > :26:22.our understanding. I would also like to thank all the noble Lords in the

:26:23. > :26:25.other Place, who have used their customary wisdom and experience to

:26:26. > :26:30.refine and improve this bill as it went through its process. This is a

:26:31. > :26:34.good and important Bill, and we on these benches welcome it. There is

:26:35. > :26:38.some room for improvement, of course, and I will come into that in

:26:39. > :26:42.my speech. But its objectives are to be welcomed. We all know the vital

:26:43. > :26:46.role that charities play in holding a strong and flourishing civil

:26:47. > :26:50.society. Thousands of people around the country give up their time every

:26:51. > :26:54.day as trustees and volunteers, and thousands more depend on the vital

:26:55. > :26:59.services that they provide. As the Minister has said, charities change

:27:00. > :27:02.and they save lives. They support the poorest and most vulnerable.

:27:03. > :27:06.They pick up the pieces of the social and economic failures that we

:27:07. > :27:11.see. They heal, they tend the sick, they bring dignity in old age, and

:27:12. > :27:16.they give children the best start in life. We owe it to all of them to

:27:17. > :27:20.provide a secure and robust regulatory environment which can

:27:21. > :27:24.inspire confidence and allow the sector to flourish. We note the

:27:25. > :27:28.sector has had a difficult year. The regulation of the sector has come

:27:29. > :27:31.under increasing scrutiny, and we have seen high profile cases that

:27:32. > :27:36.have been deeply concerning. We have seen some poor governance, we have

:27:37. > :27:38.seen financial mismanagement, we have seen some concerning

:27:39. > :27:43.fundraising methods that the Minister has sat out. These cases

:27:44. > :27:46.are extremely rare, but they are also deeply disappointing to the

:27:47. > :27:48.rest of the charitable sector. But it is important to the rest of the

:27:49. > :27:50.charitable sector. But it is important nonetheless that we

:27:51. > :27:55.support and encourage the confidence in the wider sector by coming down

:27:56. > :27:59.on any abuse, and that is why we welcome this bill. It has been good

:28:00. > :28:03.to see the sector itself step up to the plate to tackle so many of these

:28:04. > :28:07.concerns, and it is vital we play our part in supporting them in this

:28:08. > :28:10.process by giving them the legislative and regulatory

:28:11. > :28:13.environment that they need. It is vital we get the right balance

:28:14. > :28:17.between a strong and sound regulatory environment that ensures

:28:18. > :28:21.trust, and one which also allows charities the freedom to innovate,

:28:22. > :28:29.to fund raise, to be innovative and enterprising. And, crucially, to be

:28:30. > :28:31.effective in delivering their social aims and objectives. So we welcome

:28:32. > :28:36.the core aims of this Bill. To protect stronger protections for

:28:37. > :28:39.charities in England and Wales from individuals were unfit to be charity

:28:40. > :28:43.trustees, this is vital to prevent abuse and it's all good governance.

:28:44. > :28:49.Secondly, we support the measure is to equip the Charity Commission with

:28:50. > :28:52.new powers to tackle abuse more effectively and efficiently. The

:28:53. > :28:55.sector needs to be able to respond quickly and decisively to any

:28:56. > :28:59.concerns raised, so that we can ensure confidence in the sector.

:29:00. > :29:03.Further clarification is required though, and we will work with the

:29:04. > :29:06.Minister to resolve these that committee. I want to put on record

:29:07. > :29:10.at this point my pleasure to hear the Minister say that the Government

:29:11. > :29:14.will use the committee stage to look again at fundraising, and whether

:29:15. > :29:18.self-regulation is efficient, and what steps we can take if

:29:19. > :29:23.self-regulation fails. We also welcome the aim to give charities a

:29:24. > :29:26.new power to make social investment. While some already doing this, it is

:29:27. > :29:30.important that we give them the reassurance to enable them to do so.

:29:31. > :29:33.We know that one in three British consumers will pay more for products

:29:34. > :29:37.with positive social or environmental outcomes, and it is

:29:38. > :29:41.important that we enable the charitable sector to encourage this.

:29:42. > :29:44.However, there are some areas in which we believe this Bill can

:29:45. > :29:47.continue to be improved, and we look to work with a government back row

:29:48. > :29:51.during the progress of this bill through committee to do so. We'll be

:29:52. > :29:55.seeking to discuss the following points. Firstly, as the Minister has

:29:56. > :29:59.or dimension, the freedom to speak and engage in political discourse.

:30:00. > :30:03.-- has already mentioned. We continue to oppose the lobbying act,

:30:04. > :30:07.and intend to use the passage of this Bill to campaign and speak out

:30:08. > :30:12.on issues in line with their objectives. It is so often charities

:30:13. > :30:15.that end up picking up the pieces of our policy failures, and he is vital

:30:16. > :30:18.that we give them the right to campaign, to campaign on their

:30:19. > :30:23.issues and to challenge and hold us to account. This is a key part of

:30:24. > :30:29.the strong and healthy democratic exercise. Secondly, cause nine, the

:30:30. > :30:33.disposal of assets. The clause sets out that the Charity Commission

:30:34. > :30:36.should ensure that independent charities are not compelled to use

:30:37. > :30:39.or dispose of their assets in a way which is inconsistent with their

:30:40. > :30:46.charitable purpose. We will continue to defend this close to give Hauser

:30:47. > :30:51.housing associations not to be bullied by a government determined

:30:52. > :30:54.to sell off and run down affordable housing. We think it is right for

:30:55. > :30:57.charities have the freedom to dispose of their assets in the way

:30:58. > :31:00.that they see fit. Thirdly, the protection of children and

:31:01. > :31:04.vulnerable adults. We have the opportunity in this Bill to better

:31:05. > :31:08.protect children and vulnerable people, we are grateful that the

:31:09. > :31:11.Government looked at the proposals in the other place to include it

:31:12. > :31:17.people on the sex offenders register as being barred from being trustees,

:31:18. > :31:21.and we'll be looking at other measures in committee stage.

:31:22. > :31:24.Finally, clarifying some powers of the Charity Commission. The Bill

:31:25. > :31:30.seeks to strengthen the powers of the Charity Commission, and we there

:31:31. > :31:34.should be strong supported regulator of charities that acts fairly and

:31:35. > :31:37.has the appropriate powers. Ultimately, the regulator must

:31:38. > :31:40.preserve public trust and confidence in charities. However, there are

:31:41. > :31:43.some provisions in the bill that could potentially threaten the

:31:44. > :31:46.independence of charities. The Charity Commission could have the

:31:47. > :31:50.power to give warnings to a charity, for example. There are no objections

:31:51. > :31:54.to this in principle, but the current drafting does raise some

:31:55. > :31:57.concerns with the sector. For example, the commission can issue a

:31:58. > :32:03.warning if they think there has been a breach of duty or trust or other

:32:04. > :32:06.conduct or mismanagement. It is possible that the commission could

:32:07. > :32:09.issue a warning regarding a relatively low level of concern. It

:32:10. > :32:12.could be possible that an earlier disagreement between the trustees

:32:13. > :32:15.and the commission as to whether that one is justified. There should

:32:16. > :32:20.be safeguards attached to the issuing of a warning, and failure to

:32:21. > :32:23.comply with a warning should not in itself have significant

:32:24. > :32:26.consequences, which could be disastrous for charities. I hope we

:32:27. > :32:30.can continue to discuss this further in committee. In addition, the

:32:31. > :32:33.commission should give adequate notice of their intention to issue a

:32:34. > :32:41.statutory warning. These are issues which should be discussed during the

:32:42. > :32:45.committee stage. There should also be consideration for right of appeal

:32:46. > :32:48.to the Charity Tribunal, considering the implications are warning would

:32:49. > :32:54.have on the Charity in question I look forward to working with the

:32:55. > :32:58.ministers at the committee stage on this issues. We believe all of these

:32:59. > :33:03.areas can be discussed and looked at in more detail as we take this Bill

:33:04. > :33:06.forward into committee. This is an important Bill. It has room for

:33:07. > :33:10.improvement, but offers a great deal to build trust and confidence in the

:33:11. > :33:13.charitable sector, and that is why this side of the House will be

:33:14. > :33:20.supporting it, and I look forward to working with the ministers in

:33:21. > :33:24.committee. Fiona Bruce. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I support the

:33:25. > :33:30.rationale behind this bill, which I think it is of great importance to

:33:31. > :33:34.many members of the public. And its purposes are indeed important to

:33:35. > :33:39.protect the public from unscrupulous fundraisers, and stop individuals

:33:40. > :33:46.from running charities, abusing them. I agree action should be taken

:33:47. > :33:47.in such cases, I agree that the Charity Commission should have

:33:48. > :33:53.appropriate powers where misconduct is proven to have occurred. I'm

:33:54. > :33:58.pleased to note that the National Council for voluntary organisations

:33:59. > :34:01.says "it is widely acknowledged that deliberate wrongdoing in charities

:34:02. > :34:06.is extremely rare". It is important we remember that when discussing

:34:07. > :34:10.this Bill. There are many millions of people across this country who

:34:11. > :34:15.devote themselves and give selflessly of their time to

:34:16. > :34:20.charities, and it is very important that we do nothing that in anyway

:34:21. > :34:27.inhibits them from engaging and contributing to this important part

:34:28. > :34:32.of our civic society. With that motivation, Madam Deputy Speaker, I

:34:33. > :34:37.want to highlight some concerns that I do have about them, in particular

:34:38. > :34:40.regarding some of the new powers, which I hope will be helpful and

:34:41. > :34:45.parts could be explored further in committee stage. I'm speaking parts

:34:46. > :34:53.with reference particularly to the new measures, clause three, clause

:34:54. > :35:01.11, and the wide ranging wording of this part, which I am concerned

:35:02. > :35:05.could severely curbed civic engagement, deter people from

:35:06. > :35:11.wanting to be appointed as an officer to a charity, and I have

:35:12. > :35:18.over 30 years' experience of working in private practice, where charity

:35:19. > :35:21.law and the representation of charities is a particular part of

:35:22. > :35:26.that practice, and I know that over these years it has become

:35:27. > :35:34.increasingly difficult to get individuals to step up to the

:35:35. > :35:39.plate, and to agree to an appointment in a charity. It's often

:35:40. > :35:45.one of the challenges that new charities have. Interestingly,

:35:46. > :35:50.particularly the appointment of treasurer. I come to this debate

:35:51. > :35:54.with over three decades of practical experience of working in this field.

:35:55. > :36:00.And very much wanted to insure that we encourage and do not deter very

:36:01. > :36:08.responsible people that this Bill is seeking to support. Clause 11, I

:36:09. > :36:14.note its new powers to suspend and disqualify has a very extensive list

:36:15. > :36:19.of reasons within it. But I note that this could in future be varied

:36:20. > :36:24.by ministers laying new regulations, subject to those regulations being

:36:25. > :36:27.consulted upon, and we all know in this House are consultations can

:36:28. > :36:32.often, with the best will in the world on the part of Government, can

:36:33. > :36:36.only reach a few members of the public, and only be scrutinised

:36:37. > :36:39.within a few members in committee here. I have concerns about the very

:36:40. > :36:45.excessive powers which are being granted, if this bill is passed, but

:36:46. > :36:52.which perhaps, if extended, could actually come to embrace actions

:36:53. > :36:55.which were never perhaps fully scrutinised or intended by many

:36:56. > :37:02.members of this place. So I enter that caveat regarding that right for

:37:03. > :37:09.reasons for disqualification to be extended merely by ministers laying

:37:10. > :37:14.new regulations. Can I now look at clause three? It gives immense power

:37:15. > :37:17.to the Charity Commission indeed, the commission in its policy paper

:37:18. > :37:25.of late 2015 called a significant new power.

:37:26. > :37:33.I am concerned that the wording of the Bill says, the Charity

:37:34. > :37:38.Commission shall issue a warning to a charity trustee or trustee for a

:37:39. > :37:43.charity who it considers has committed some form of misconduct or

:37:44. > :37:52.mismanagement. Who it considers, that is a wide-ranging phrase. I

:37:53. > :37:59.note also, within subsection two, sub-clause two of clause one. At

:38:00. > :38:06.that point in time, they issue a warning which it can publish. The

:38:07. > :38:13.charity or the person subject to that warning can respond, but the

:38:14. > :38:20.publication may well have already occurred. The damage to the

:38:21. > :38:26.reputation of the charity, to the individual and to the charitable

:38:27. > :38:30.work in general, I'm concerned about the fact there is an opportunity to

:38:31. > :38:35.publish without an opportunity to respond. If I am incorrect in that,

:38:36. > :38:44.I would be grateful if the Minister could correct me on that point. I

:38:45. > :38:55.would like to turn to some of the conditions for this. It will

:38:56. > :39:01.interpret some of the conditions, including undermining the confidence

:39:02. > :39:10.of the public. It is that which I want to highlight now. Conduct which

:39:11. > :39:18.might damage public trust. Simply on that one criteria, the charity

:39:19. > :39:24.emission could take steps to act and issue, as I say, the warning I have

:39:25. > :39:31.referred to. The Charity Commission says, on its own interpretation of

:39:32. > :39:38.the Bill, but it will use a space for this. The knowledge of the

:39:39. > :39:43.service it takes into public trust. I'm concerned about that. Does this

:39:44. > :39:48.mean, for a double, that the Charity Commission can carry out a poll,

:39:49. > :39:51.asking people for certain views, whether it would make the public

:39:52. > :39:59.more less likely to trust that individual or that charity? What of

:40:00. > :40:02.those views were very much in the minority in our society today? What

:40:03. > :40:06.if they were views that were very much opposed to current government

:40:07. > :40:13.policy? Perhaps views on foreign policy. That is quite a broad

:40:14. > :40:19.ranging power that the Charity Commission has, without, as far as I

:40:20. > :40:24.can see, any requirement for any independent review from government

:40:25. > :40:28.before that warning is issued, simply that there is some activity

:40:29. > :40:34.which an individual has undertaken or something which an individual has

:40:35. > :40:37.said which is contrary, perhaps, to the views that are held by the

:40:38. > :40:46.majority of the public who respond to a survey. When the Bill talks

:40:47. > :40:53.about any conduct, any conduct, does that mean conduct which someone

:40:54. > :40:58.undertook several years before becoming a trustee? All of us know

:40:59. > :41:03.that views can change over time. Many of us may well have expressed

:41:04. > :41:08.views on years ago which have changed. How is an individual going

:41:09. > :41:12.to be protected from action which could be undertaken which could have

:41:13. > :41:17.incredibly far-reaching repercussions for that individual,

:41:18. > :41:24.if steps are taken using this legislation? I want to just

:41:25. > :41:31.highlight, because I don't think this is merely theoretical, how

:41:32. > :41:35.serious this is, by reminding the House of the challenges that the

:41:36. > :41:40.Plymouth Reverend had in the last Parliament regarding the threat to

:41:41. > :41:44.their charitable registration because of the interpretation of the

:41:45. > :41:53.words, public benefit, within the 2006 charities Bill. -- Charities

:41:54. > :42:01.Bill. We have got an excellent head of the committee and I think he is a

:42:02. > :42:07.man who has wisdom and expresses his opinions and makes his deliberations

:42:08. > :42:10.and sessions very carefully and with great common sense, if I may say. It

:42:11. > :42:16.is following his appointment as a chairman of the commission that I

:42:17. > :42:23.felt that there was some appropriate approach taken towards the problem

:42:24. > :42:28.that they found themselves in when their charitable status was

:42:29. > :42:31.challenged, it went to tribunal. It was very serious, they had to engage

:42:32. > :42:40.lawyers. It would affect over 300 churches. These are long established

:42:41. > :42:43.denominations across the entire country. This challenge they had was

:42:44. > :42:53.a very common serious -- a very, a very common serious -- a very,

:42:54. > :42:58.very serious one. What they had to do, and I mentioned this, and it is

:42:59. > :43:06.to their credit, in the past, they had carried out an enormous amount

:43:07. > :43:13.of voluntary work without shouting about it. What they had to do was to

:43:14. > :43:19.start to produce documentation, and they produced some excellent

:43:20. > :43:23.booklets, stating the public benefit, which they have carried on

:43:24. > :43:31.doing. For example, with disaster relief. Eventually, as we know,

:43:32. > :43:35.there worse a major debate in this House. Ireland one Westminster Hall

:43:36. > :43:39.debate where there were over 40 mounds of Parliament who spoke up

:43:40. > :43:43.for them, to say that this action should never have been taken based

:43:44. > :43:53.on the subjective interpretation of the words "public benefit". That

:43:54. > :44:01.action was withdrawn at the charitable status of the Plymouth

:44:02. > :44:10.Brethren and others waiting for the decision was secure. Perhaps a

:44:11. > :44:18.further consideration, if we talk about minority views undermining

:44:19. > :44:23.public confidence, where would the suffragettes have been in all of

:44:24. > :44:28.this years ago? Our society today contains a wide range of views and

:44:29. > :44:36.beliefs. They are passionately held. They often very visibly held,

:44:37. > :44:42.disagreement is frequent as we saw yesterday. It is the cornerstone of

:44:43. > :44:47.a free society. We know that social media can be called in this

:44:48. > :44:52.respect, and many people can despise or reject people simply based on

:44:53. > :44:58.sincerely held but different or minority views. I think it is very

:44:59. > :45:05.important that we ensure that genuine people with genuinely held

:45:06. > :45:08.minority views, and that is what charities are for, to protect the

:45:09. > :45:16.vulnerable and minorities, that they are protected from the unintended

:45:17. > :45:20.consequences, and I'm sure they are unintended, of this legislation. I

:45:21. > :45:27.touch on different faith groups. Many religions in this country hold

:45:28. > :45:30.views that are different from the others. Some of them are strongly

:45:31. > :45:34.rejected. We have to look at the view of creationism. We now know

:45:35. > :45:40.that in schools, this cannot be taught as a scientific fact but it

:45:41. > :46:01.can still, one would hope, be expanded as a belief in R E lessons.

:46:02. > :46:04.If it was seen that it could be undermining public others, that is

:46:05. > :46:11.one example. Different views on sexual ethics... I'm not talking

:46:12. > :46:14.about minorities here. I know of a Church of England vicar who spoke

:46:15. > :46:19.with me only in the last few weeks that he had gone into a school, he

:46:20. > :46:25.was speaking, and this is our state church, speaking about a particular

:46:26. > :46:28.view from a particular, biblical aspect, and he was given the

:46:29. > :46:31.distinct impression, please don't come in and talk about this issue

:46:32. > :46:40.again. The chilling effect that legislation can have on free speech

:46:41. > :46:43.in our society on people with sincerely held but minority beliefs,

:46:44. > :46:51.we must ensure that we protect from this. I'm turning now, if I may,

:46:52. > :46:58.Madam Deputy Speaker, to the connection to this Bill and the

:46:59. > :47:05.dogma's counter extremism strategy. That links the new powers in this

:47:06. > :47:10.Bill with it. I understand that will stop I understand what the

:47:11. > :47:17.Government is seeking to do in ensuring that charities are not

:47:18. > :47:24.abused for extremist purposes. The problem is what is the definition of

:47:25. > :47:30.extremism? We don't appear to have a clear definition at present, and it

:47:31. > :47:36.is one which impacts on this Bill and could impact very negatively. I

:47:37. > :47:45.just want to, if I may, explore this issue a little further. In the

:47:46. > :47:49.counter extremism strategy document which the Government has put Ford,

:47:50. > :47:53.at least the information document, a claim Mizen is defined as the vocal

:47:54. > :47:56.or active opposition to a fundamental values, including

:47:57. > :48:01.democracy, the rule of law, individual liberty and a mutual

:48:02. > :48:12.respect and tolerance of different faiths and beliefs. That sounds

:48:13. > :48:15.fine, but previous definitions had two all three additional words which

:48:16. > :48:19.now appear to be missing from that definition. Previous definitions of

:48:20. > :48:24.extreme as had the mutual respect and tolerance of those with

:48:25. > :48:40.different faiths and beliefs. This is one of our fundamental beliefs.

:48:41. > :48:43.The mutual respect and tolerance of those with different faiths and

:48:44. > :48:47.beliefs. It is entirely right that we should respect for the people,

:48:48. > :48:55.including those with other beliefs, and the right to respect... And we

:48:56. > :49:11.respect their right to hold those beliefs. We have to speak very

:49:12. > :49:16.carefully if we can take this -- ... If I say that I respect

:49:17. > :49:21.Scientologists but I do not respect Scientology, so I am respecting

:49:22. > :49:29.those who hold different police but I am not respecting the belief of

:49:30. > :49:34.Scientologists. This that make me an extremist? We have to look carefully

:49:35. > :49:37.at the way in which we define extremes. It is interesting to note

:49:38. > :49:46.that the Government has yet to provide a statutory definition of

:49:47. > :49:54.nonviolent extremism. Free speech is something which we all value so

:49:55. > :50:01.highly in this House, and a free society is based on disagreement and

:50:02. > :50:09.beach or respect. I believe it is strengthened, not compromised when I

:50:10. > :50:13.respect a fellow this is but not necessarily their belief. I refer

:50:14. > :50:21.against to the suffragettes. We might also referred to the slavery

:50:22. > :50:25.issue. The wording of this definition is deeply troubling. We

:50:26. > :50:30.need to ensure that we clarified. Rather than combating extremism, we

:50:31. > :50:41.could end up contributing to the marginalisation, which feeds extras.

:50:42. > :50:45.Open dialogue in the society is necessary if we are to promote

:50:46. > :50:51.community cohesion. The role that favourite play in community

:50:52. > :50:59.cohesion, through its involvement in the voluntary sector, is staggering.

:51:00. > :51:02.The research earlier this year showed that faith groups could be ?3

:51:03. > :51:05.million towards social action and that unity is. That is just in

:51:06. > :51:13.monetary terms. I think the social cohesion that faith groups provide

:51:14. > :51:17.is unquantifiable. Thousands of churches run charity projects and

:51:18. > :51:23.have done for decades. I'm concerned that the removal of the main

:51:24. > :51:27.deterrents of those who hold faith views which in this society might

:51:28. > :51:31.not necessarily be popular, certainly with not be considered

:51:32. > :51:45.mainstream, could deny the charitable sector for decades of

:51:46. > :51:51.expertise. The decades I have had working illegal practice, working

:51:52. > :51:56.with the charitable sector, they are worried about becoming charitable

:51:57. > :52:01.trust is. I wonder if the Minister would look

:52:02. > :52:03.again at these powers for discoloured occasion because it is

:52:04. > :52:14.very interesting that he used the term, self-regulation. I would not

:52:15. > :52:17.like to become self exclusion or self discoloured occasion. That is

:52:18. > :52:21.the concern I have because these powers are so wide and broad, and we

:52:22. > :52:26.need to ensure that those thousands of experienced volunteers who are

:52:27. > :52:32.involved in the chart will sector are not deterred from being involved

:52:33. > :52:36.in society. That is not the governor's intention, I would be

:52:37. > :52:46.grateful if the Government would look at these concerns. They are, I

:52:47. > :52:51.am sure, unintended consequences will stop but they could cause

:52:52. > :52:52.marginalisation in a sector where we need them so vitally. That is

:52:53. > :53:08.something we cannot afford. I rise as the SNP spokesperson on

:53:09. > :53:12.the Cabinet Office to make a brief contribution to the debate. You will

:53:13. > :53:15.see from the benches behind me the absence of Scottish members of

:53:16. > :53:19.Parliament in this discussion. Please do not take that as

:53:20. > :53:23.disinterest, it is merely an acknowledgement of the fact that

:53:24. > :53:27.provisions in this Bill do not apply in Scotland and therefore our

:53:28. > :53:33.constituents would be not encumbered by them. That said, we do have a few

:53:34. > :53:39.observations to make on the discussion at hand. I note that this

:53:40. > :53:42.is a certified Bill, of course. And you will note that there is no

:53:43. > :53:47.willingness of Scottish members to take part in the discussion anyway,

:53:48. > :53:51.so perhaps this could serve as an illustration of whether or not the

:53:52. > :53:55.English Votes For English Laws amendments to standing orders were

:53:56. > :53:58.really necessary to burden this House. You have to be constructive

:53:59. > :54:03.and help the Government if you wish to try and speed up the passage of

:54:04. > :54:08.this legislation, I can assure you that we will not seek to have any

:54:09. > :54:12.further contribution or influence in the matter under discussion, and you

:54:13. > :54:16.can dispense with the legislative consent stage should that become

:54:17. > :54:20.necessary. There is a different system in Scotland, obviously, and I

:54:21. > :54:24.would like to place on record to pay tribute to the office of the

:54:25. > :54:31.Scottish charities regulator, Oscar, which, since 2005, has provided

:54:32. > :54:35.support to 23.5 thousand charities in Scotland of all shapes and sizes,

:54:36. > :54:39.and in particular to their trustees. I have some personal experience of

:54:40. > :54:44.this, because I served for seven years as a trustee of the Edinburgh

:54:45. > :54:47.Festival fringe Society, one of the larger organisations in Scotland

:54:48. > :54:51.which benefited greatly from the support given by Oscar. That said,

:54:52. > :54:55.even though it is a different situation, we live in the same

:54:56. > :54:59.island, and the regulations that apply in England and Wales to set

:55:00. > :55:03.some of the context with which we will operate in Scotland, so we have

:55:04. > :55:11.an interest in what happens in this House in terms of the legislation in

:55:12. > :55:16.England and Wales. Of course, yes. It is only a very quick point, not

:55:17. > :55:21.many people will be aware, in fact I wasn't myself until about six months

:55:22. > :55:24.ago, that in Scotland, every charity is registered with the regulatory

:55:25. > :55:29.body, whereas of course in England and Wales, many smaller charities

:55:30. > :55:33.are not. Does the honourable gentleman have a view on that? I

:55:34. > :55:39.actually think it is of relevance to the wider debate. All I can tell you

:55:40. > :55:44.is that it works well in Scotland, and we do tend to take an approach

:55:45. > :55:51.that if it isn't broke, don't fix it. I will make a comment on some

:55:52. > :55:55.specifics in a moment. I want to welcome the Minister's support for

:55:56. > :56:00.the role of charities in our society throughout the country. I would say

:56:01. > :56:03.that it is important we recognise that people involved in charities

:56:04. > :56:08.and the organisations themselves are not just there as service providers

:56:09. > :56:13.to deliver things, they also are a valuable source of information and

:56:14. > :56:16.opinion that can inform many of our social policies. And I would say

:56:17. > :56:20.that the Government may be, despite its support, has some bridges to

:56:21. > :56:26.mend with the charitable sector in some areas of social policy, in

:56:27. > :56:30.particular we have more than 60 disability organisations and

:56:31. > :56:33.charities which are concerned about the Government's changes to

:56:34. > :56:37.disability benefits, and contrast that with the situation in Scotland,

:56:38. > :56:41.where the leading children's charities have actually praised the

:56:42. > :56:45.Scottish Government in amending some of the regulations. Turning to the

:56:46. > :56:50.Bill itself, there are some causes in the Bill where in many ways you

:56:51. > :56:55.are bringing the situation in England and Wales into line with the

:56:56. > :57:02.situation in Scotland. I think it was caused to that relates to the

:57:03. > :57:09.time limit on -- Klaus two. These provisions apply in Scotland in more

:57:10. > :57:12.or less the same way. Clause ten notes the criteria for qualification

:57:13. > :57:16.of trustees -- disqualification. You are going a lot further than the

:57:17. > :57:23.situation in Scotland. Our approach would be to let you get on with that

:57:24. > :57:29.and see how it works out. I would like to gently remind the honourable

:57:30. > :57:33.gentleman he frequently is using the word you. Actually, in the first

:57:34. > :57:37.part of his speech, it was quite appropriate because he was in a way

:57:38. > :57:41.referring to the chair. But when he is referring to the Government, it

:57:42. > :57:47.is better to say the Government, not cover you, or the Minister, because

:57:48. > :57:55.I will not take the blame as the chair. Tommy Sheppard. I stand

:57:56. > :58:02.corrected,'s. Of course, sometimes I use the word you in the Scottish

:58:03. > :58:06.vernacular to apply one. But I will try to refer to the Government. Some

:58:07. > :58:10.causes were you are bringing the situation into line somewhere you go

:58:11. > :58:14.further, and it would our intention to wait and see. There is a review

:58:15. > :58:17.and discussion underway in Scotland as well, which has come about in

:58:18. > :58:21.part because of the discussion that has taken place in England and

:58:22. > :58:26.Wales. Our main concern though would be on the whole area of the funding

:58:27. > :58:32.regulation. The regulations surrounding the ability of charities

:58:33. > :58:36.to raise money. Certainly the Scottish Council for Voluntary

:58:37. > :58:42.Organisations has expressed concern that the high profile cases in

:58:43. > :58:45.English charities about misuse of funds and in appropriate ways of

:58:46. > :58:49.raising funds actually will have an effect on charities in Scotland,

:58:50. > :58:51.even though they are not part of the same regulatory framework, because

:58:52. > :58:56.people will generally think that they will be tarred with the same

:58:57. > :59:01.brush, effectively. So there is a concern. We see no great move at the

:59:02. > :59:07.moment to change the funding regulation. We have essentially a

:59:08. > :59:10.self regulatory way of charitable fundraising regulation. And we

:59:11. > :59:15.probably would want to continue with that. But what I would say is that a

:59:16. > :59:18.discussion is underway in Scotland involving the charitable sector, and

:59:19. > :59:22.we are determined that whatever happens it will be something that is

:59:23. > :59:26.arrived at as a method of agreement, and the charity sector

:59:27. > :59:30.itself will be involved. I think it is a matter of debate as to whether

:59:31. > :59:33.or not we want to continue with self-regulation, or whether we see a

:59:34. > :59:37.role for the Government being more directly involved. Oviedo, ministers

:59:38. > :59:44.here have taken the view that they wish the Government to be more

:59:45. > :59:49.directly involved -- obviously. We will watch that with interest. And

:59:50. > :59:55.we wish you very well in your endeavours to improve the regulation

:59:56. > :59:59.of charities in England and Wales. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I

:00:00. > :00:02.am delighted to be able to speak today on this very important Bill,

:00:03. > :00:07.which I believe strengthens the governance and attacks are

:00:08. > :00:10.charities. Charities play an extremely -- protect such churches.

:00:11. > :00:16.They play an extremely important role, and we believe we are stronger

:00:17. > :00:21.for them. We would be poorer as a nation if we did not have our

:00:22. > :00:23.amazing charities. It is the hundreds of thousands of generous

:00:24. > :00:28.volunteers that really make a difference. 41% of people have

:00:29. > :00:34.reported taking part in volunteering at the last year. That is a massive

:00:35. > :00:39.21 million people across the UK. In fact, only three weeks ago, every

:00:40. > :00:45.member of my staff took days holiday and spent it following two in across

:00:46. > :00:50.the constituency as part of the inaugural volunteering day. When my

:00:51. > :00:54.staff volunteered at the homeless charity, I will talk more about that

:00:55. > :00:58.later. And then went on to help of street collections for Children in

:00:59. > :01:07.Need. Another volunteered at a church food bank, and helped serve

:01:08. > :01:12.two course lunch organised by a committee, which I thought was noble

:01:13. > :01:16.of her. A third member of my staff helped up the local hospice and

:01:17. > :01:21.joined tree top Garden club, that is a garden club which has just been

:01:22. > :01:26.awarded the hospice UK Garden of the year, so we are very proud of that

:01:27. > :01:32.award. And my senior caseworker sent the day at direct help and advice,

:01:33. > :01:38.which has just been awarded big lottery funding. Of course, I did

:01:39. > :01:41.some volunteering, too. I visited a local church to find out more about

:01:42. > :01:46.their outreach community projects. One of these was chair based

:01:47. > :01:49.exercises, which was a lot more energetic than it sounds. This

:01:50. > :01:54.offered more than just an exercise, it offered a chat over a cup of tea

:01:55. > :01:57.at the end of the session, and therefore it provided social

:01:58. > :02:01.inclusion, as well. My whole team really enjoyed our day, and we

:02:02. > :02:06.decided to make it an annual event, and we are really looking forward to

:02:07. > :02:10.next year's are awash volunteering day, working with even more local

:02:11. > :02:17.charities -- Erawan Shrine I am grateful to my honourable friend.

:02:18. > :02:19.Would she agree with me that in terms of charitable giving and

:02:20. > :02:24.volunteering, it is not just the giving but also what we as

:02:25. > :02:28.individuals, when we volunteer, when we give we also gained so much more

:02:29. > :02:32.from it, often in terms of the experience, getting to know

:02:33. > :02:36.different people. I thank my honourable friend for that

:02:37. > :02:40.intervention, and she is completely right. We have both experienced that

:02:41. > :02:44.with our time volunteering in Rwanda as part of our social action there,

:02:45. > :02:49.when we went we thought that we were going to give, but we learned so

:02:50. > :02:52.much, we benefited so much from that experience. Whether it is something

:02:53. > :02:55.of our social action there, when we went we thought that we were going

:02:56. > :02:57.to give, but we learned so much, we benefited so much from that

:02:58. > :02:59.experience. Whether it is something overseas or something but we learned

:03:00. > :03:01.so much, we benefited so much from that experience. Whether it is

:03:02. > :03:04.something overseas or something in R.N. Constituency, I know I feel

:03:05. > :03:07.very humble every time I go to a charity. -- our own constituency. We

:03:08. > :03:09.met on a charity volunteers -- other charity volunteers. Trustees play a

:03:10. > :03:13.very important role within the charity. In the past, I have been a

:03:14. > :03:18.trustee for two different charities. Before being appointed as a trustee

:03:19. > :03:24.on both occasions I went through a selection process and was put under

:03:25. > :03:30.scrutiny. It is only right, as trustees do hold very responsible

:03:31. > :03:33.roles. And sadly, we have heard some bad news stories recently,

:03:34. > :03:37.incidences where trustees may not have been quite as group Eulas as

:03:38. > :03:44.they should. This should not happen, as it reflects Bradley -- badly and

:03:45. > :03:48.undeservedly on charities across the board, even though they weren't

:03:49. > :03:51.involved. That is why this Bill aims to strengthen the governance, and

:03:52. > :03:56.gives more powers to the Charity Commission, to remove inappropriate

:03:57. > :04:02.trustees. I think my honourable friend mentioned this as well. The

:04:03. > :04:06.occurrence of regulatory abuse in charities is rare, as you pointed

:04:07. > :04:11.out, but it is vital that measures are in place to ensure the public

:04:12. > :04:15.and many charity volunteers do not lose confidence when incidences like

:04:16. > :04:23.that do happen. Another aspect of the Bill is to protect members of

:04:24. > :04:26.the public from the unscrupulous and unrelenting fundraisers. Once again,

:04:27. > :04:32.there have been disturbing stories in the media recently, which have

:04:33. > :04:38.ended up reflecting badly on every charity, and so many are just not

:04:39. > :04:43.involved in this sort of procedure. I thank the honourable lady

:04:44. > :04:47.forgiving way. Will she also agree, chugging also puts people off

:04:48. > :04:51.donating, particularly when we hear the sort of fees they receive from

:04:52. > :04:54.the donations they collect from public? I thank my honourable friend

:04:55. > :05:00.for that intervention completely agree. We see so many people on the

:05:01. > :05:03.streets, and you do avoid them. I think that affects the local

:05:04. > :05:08.shopkeepers as well, people get a bit fearful of what they are going

:05:09. > :05:12.to find on the High Street. But it also reflects in another way, in

:05:13. > :05:16.fact, my parents in their later years stopped donating to charities

:05:17. > :05:19.when those donations were traceable in anyway. This was a result of

:05:20. > :05:24.making one donation, and then getting phone call after phone call,

:05:25. > :05:30.trying to persuade them to set up direct debits. My parents were

:05:31. > :05:32.subject to just a fraction of the pressure at Olive Cook suffered,

:05:33. > :05:38.which ended in such an awful tragedy. With 44% of adults

:05:39. > :05:43.reportedly giving money to charitable causes every month, it is

:05:44. > :05:48.so important that donors feel they can make those donations freely, and

:05:49. > :05:55.also that their donation is being spent wisely. And I believe this

:05:56. > :05:58.Bill does both. Of course, our small local charities do not employ

:05:59. > :06:01.third-party professional fundraisers, but have to use their

:06:02. > :06:10.ingenuity to raise their funds. Members of this House have talked

:06:11. > :06:16.before about fundraising events at my local hospice. It is called Tree

:06:17. > :06:20.top writes amazing care in the local community. I have awarded prizes at

:06:21. > :06:23.their dog show, and taken part in a sponsored bike ride, taking in all

:06:24. > :06:28.their charity shops across Derbyshire, and I did that on a

:06:29. > :06:31.tandem. There is always something happening across my constituency,

:06:32. > :06:35.somewhere there a charity events going on. Last Saturday on went the

:06:36. > :06:39.Christmas fair, organised by a group of friends from the Community

:06:40. > :06:44.Hospital. When I got there I was delighted not just to see Father

:06:45. > :06:48.Christmas but also to seek there was a stall, as I knew that last

:06:49. > :06:52.Christmas they had been selling Christmas cakes that were made

:06:53. > :06:56.locally and were really tasty, and they have those cakes there again.

:06:57. > :07:01.It saved me trying to find the time, rather belatedly, to make my

:07:02. > :07:06.Christmas cake. At the Long Eaton Christmas lights switch on last

:07:07. > :07:10.Thursday, I was able to win on the Scouts' tombola, but every ticket

:07:11. > :07:17.was a winner! And also to buy some handmade Christmas tree decorations

:07:18. > :07:21.from the W Y stall. These make fantastic contributions to my local

:07:22. > :07:25.area, and it is much richer as a result.

:07:26. > :07:35.I did say I would come back to the trust, which is more than just a

:07:36. > :07:45.charity for homeless young man. It would provide the ideal vehicle for

:07:46. > :07:49.this charity. It would help the German move on further with their

:07:50. > :07:54.lives. As my right honourable friend come of the Minister, said, social

:07:55. > :07:58.investment is the way of the future. I'm delighted it forms part

:07:59. > :08:04.of this Bill. Madame deputies bigger, I believe this Bill will

:08:05. > :08:09.protect our many charities from an Scougall is behaviour and so

:08:10. > :08:13.maintain the confidence of the public, the confidence of the many

:08:14. > :08:19.donors and the confidence of the volunteers as well as those employed

:08:20. > :08:29.by the charities. I would like to ensure at committee stage that this

:08:30. > :08:34.in no way... That local charities will be penalised in no way as

:08:35. > :08:37.result of the changes. I like the way it provides a mechanism to

:08:38. > :08:42.enable charities to enable social investments that can be of great

:08:43. > :08:46.benefit to those they serve. I'm delighted to have been able to speak

:08:47. > :08:51.in support of this Bill today, with my reservation of its impact on

:08:52. > :09:04.small charities such as the ones I have talked about today.

:09:05. > :09:13.It is a great pleasure to take part in this debate on the Charities

:09:14. > :09:19.(Protection and Social Investment) Bill. Just a viewpoint on this.

:09:20. > :09:24.People do welcome the fact that the Government is taking action to

:09:25. > :09:34.prevent people who are unfit to become charity trustees becoming so

:09:35. > :09:40.for effectively. There are just a view aspects of detail. I think

:09:41. > :09:44.there is widespread agreement across the voluntary sector and the general

:09:45. > :10:00.public, very much recognising what the honourable lady said. The

:10:01. > :10:06.problem with predatory fundraising. There is a fundraising preference

:10:07. > :10:10.service which will be very important indeed. It is worth bearing in mind

:10:11. > :10:17.that across England and Wales, there are 943,000 trustees. I think we in

:10:18. > :10:21.this House bear some responsibility for making sure we don't scare them

:10:22. > :10:26.to death with regulation. The bulk of charities in this country, they

:10:27. > :10:31.are not like Kids Company, who appeared to have got away with a

:10:32. > :10:35.remarkable amount, we're talking about people who give up their time

:10:36. > :10:40.on management, committees... They often don't have much time to give

:10:41. > :10:45.up. We don't often do that well in terms of diversity of trustees will

:10:46. > :10:51.stop the average age is 57 and only about one in 200 was between the

:10:52. > :10:57.ages of 16 and 24. I am rather reluctant that if we do anything

:10:58. > :11:06.that scares too many off. Having said that, there is a case that we

:11:07. > :11:11.come back to what Lodge Hodgson -- Lord Hodgson suggested 80 years ago,

:11:12. > :11:16.in terms of time-limits for larger charities. It would be ridiculous

:11:17. > :11:23.for the village will committee and many small management groups. That

:11:24. > :11:31.is something I hope could be considered at some time as the Bill

:11:32. > :11:38.is going through. Just a couple of other small points. In clause one,

:11:39. > :11:43.about the official warnings by the commission. We know from that, and I

:11:44. > :11:47.know the points were raised on that by other members, that it gives the

:11:48. > :11:54.commission and absolute discretion to publish a warning to a wide

:11:55. > :12:00.audience. But charities depend heavily on funding and reputation

:12:01. > :12:05.matters. I fear, if there is no real right to appeal against a warning,

:12:06. > :12:11.and no minimum notice period given, I think that is something that needs

:12:12. > :12:17.to be looked at. Clause 11, with the power to disqualify from being a

:12:18. > :12:23.trustee, I think the issue here really is about clarity because I

:12:24. > :12:31.think we agree in principle that that power, if there is genuine

:12:32. > :12:35.abuse, is important. There is an issue where there is a clear case

:12:36. > :12:39.and in terms of the amount of discretion, is that two white? Many

:12:40. > :12:45.of us would agree it should be defined more clearly. Of course, the

:12:46. > :12:53.issue of past behaviour is a point that the honourable member for

:12:54. > :13:00.Congleton raised in her extensive speech. I would say this is a

:13:01. > :13:08.welcome Bill. It is part of looking at how charities develop in a modern

:13:09. > :13:14.world. Also, we have got to make sure that we are a bit careful. It

:13:15. > :13:16.is so easy for us to add new regulations and really frightened

:13:17. > :13:21.charities, especially smaller charities, from doing the work they

:13:22. > :13:30.do. Often charities start off very small. I think of the charity in my

:13:31. > :13:32.constituency, it started very small but has now become a

:13:33. > :13:38.state-of-the-art charity working with children and young people with

:13:39. > :13:43.autism. It often begins little acorns but we must not smother those

:13:44. > :13:46.with too many regulations. I'm not sure if you can smuggle regulations,

:13:47. > :13:55.but if you can I don't think you should. I broadly welcome this but

:13:56. > :13:58.we do need to look at some of those issues. The Government did that very

:13:59. > :14:05.much so in the last Parliament, as we discussed at committee stage, the

:14:06. > :14:10.small charitable donations Bill, and changes were made. I very much hope

:14:11. > :14:17.that some of these debates might be had at a later stage.

:14:18. > :14:26.It is an absolute pleasure and a privilege to stand here today and

:14:27. > :14:30.speak to this Charities Bill. Across the country, charities do

:14:31. > :14:33.magnificent work, a national and local level. Sitting on the Green

:14:34. > :14:44.benches, we have been listening to some fantastic examples from my

:14:45. > :14:49.honourable friends. Some really fantastic examples. Some very

:14:50. > :14:54.inspirational examples of the work that goes on up and down the breadth

:14:55. > :14:58.of our country. In the days when I used to run half marathons, like the

:14:59. > :15:07.Great North Run, rubbing their own just running from my office to this

:15:08. > :15:12.chamber or to the voting lobby, I was always oppressed by the number

:15:13. > :15:14.of runners, the breadth of charities representative and the generosity

:15:15. > :15:22.and support of the public. I was often disheartened when somebody in

:15:23. > :15:26.fancy dress ran past me at a faster speed, but you cannot have

:15:27. > :15:33.everything. In Mike stitcher and see, I think of some of our local

:15:34. > :15:43.charities. One in particular, Rosie's Helping Hands, it was set up

:15:44. > :15:48.to help them deal with the loss of a daughter. They hold numerous events

:15:49. > :15:53.including a charitable walk. The money that they raise goes into

:15:54. > :15:59.helping children and young people in our local community. We also have

:16:00. > :16:05.many local branches of some of the big national charities. I think of

:16:06. > :16:10.the Royal British Legion, our local branches do so much to raise

:16:11. > :16:15.awareness and raise funds for this incredibly important charity that

:16:16. > :16:24.supports the Armed Forces veterans. In one of my villagers, they managed

:16:25. > :16:32.to ink courage -- encourage the entire community to knit bobbies in

:16:33. > :16:37.advance of Remembrance Sunday. To see these puppies all over the

:16:38. > :16:40.clocktower in remembrance, that is a vital reminder of why the charitable

:16:41. > :16:44.sector is so important. Do my honourable friend 's agree that it

:16:45. > :16:48.is partly fundraising and also the feel-good factor that is created in

:16:49. > :16:56.communities like you have just described? I could not agree more. I

:16:57. > :17:01.had to get my knitting needles out and learn how to knit again. I

:17:02. > :17:07.probably dropped several! I did my bit, as did everybody else. To see

:17:08. > :17:11.the way that unity came together, and that sense of working together

:17:12. > :17:21.and having a bit of fun for an incredible you worthwhile cause. To

:17:22. > :17:28.me, charities play an important part in our local communities, dividing

:17:29. > :17:31.something over and above what the public sector provides. It is often

:17:32. > :17:34.these small things that make a big difference to the lives of

:17:35. > :17:40.individual people and their families. Through my involvement,

:17:41. > :17:45.Madam to the Speaker, with social action projects over the years, I

:17:46. > :17:52.have been fortunate to get to know many of the charities both in the UK

:17:53. > :17:57.and overseas. There are members of this chamber involved in projects in

:17:58. > :18:04.Rwanda, working with charities over there. In recent weeks, as some of

:18:05. > :18:09.you in this chamber will know, I have a private member 's Bill going

:18:10. > :18:15.through this place to help Great Ormond Street hospital. I had a

:18:16. > :18:22.great measure of visiting the husband to and seeing the work --

:18:23. > :18:26.the hospital and seeing the work they do with patients there. They

:18:27. > :18:31.are involved with, there is a chapel. They do a huge at the

:18:32. > :18:35.paediatric research. That would not be possible if not for the role of

:18:36. > :18:42.the charity and the people involved with that. Sadly, Madam Deputy

:18:43. > :18:48.Speaker, the results of high-profile crises can so often damaged the

:18:49. > :18:53.trust in charities. Therefore I think it is really important that we

:18:54. > :19:01.do all we can to maintain and strengthen the trust of charities.

:19:02. > :19:06.That is demonstrated in this Bill. It demonstrates the importance of

:19:07. > :19:09.having an effective charity regulator. I will be supporting the

:19:10. > :19:14.Bill because it brings forward provisions that include providing

:19:15. > :19:18.stronger protections for charities in England and Wales. It also

:19:19. > :19:24.includes equipping the charities commission with strengthened powers

:19:25. > :19:32.to tackle abuse more effectively and efficiently. I thank the honourable

:19:33. > :19:37.lady for giving way for so few has made some strong points in favour of

:19:38. > :19:40.this Bill. To keep the flow of funds coming in from the public and from

:19:41. > :19:45.donors, it is vital that the abuse is not possible and the public has

:19:46. > :19:49.covered is that there is a mechanism to tackle it? Trust and confidence

:19:50. > :19:54.is critical. That is why I believe it is about taking or being ever

:19:55. > :19:59.take robust but proportionate action where serious mismanagement occurs.

:20:00. > :20:05.It is about maintaining and strengthening trust in this vital

:20:06. > :20:12.set. To enable all charities, with a large or small, to continue to do

:20:13. > :20:17.the work they do. I would make one play, to ensure that throughout this

:20:18. > :20:25.Bill, the smaller charities are not as proportionately affected by any

:20:26. > :20:30.bureaucracy or to which legislation. In my opinion, it doesn't matter

:20:31. > :20:37.whether you are a small charity or a large charity, they have so much to

:20:38. > :20:41.give to our country, to our society, to our communities, so I will be

:20:42. > :20:50.doing everything I can to get them the support they deserve.

:20:51. > :20:56.I really wanted to speak briefly in today's debate to welcome this

:20:57. > :20:58.Bill, which I think is much needed and very sensible reform from the

:20:59. > :21:02.Government. I'm delighted they brought it forward. I speak as

:21:03. > :21:08.someone who practised as a solicitor for several years before entering

:21:09. > :21:13.this place. In doing so, I practised corporate governance in other areas.

:21:14. > :21:19.We have all come to see in the last year that the governance of

:21:20. > :21:23.charities is in crisis. That is affecting all charities. The large

:21:24. > :21:27.charities are infecting the small charities, and that is why it is so

:21:28. > :21:32.important for this House to act because, as has Audie been said by

:21:33. > :21:38.mothers on all sides, we all support the charities in our

:21:39. > :21:48.constituencies. We have given to them or acted as trustees was to be

:21:49. > :21:54.want to see public increased. Public confidence has been knocked this

:21:55. > :22:04.yet. Charities are different to many other parts of our society. When

:22:05. > :22:08.large businesses get knocked by scandals, the public toast was the

:22:09. > :22:12.little guys and public confidence increases. If there is a horse meat

:22:13. > :22:20.scandal at Tesco, we all go to the local butchers and sales rise.

:22:21. > :22:24.Charity seem to have the inverse was that if big charities get hit by

:22:25. > :22:28.scandal, the little guys suffer as well. It is essential that we

:22:29. > :22:33.protect the small charities, but thousands of excellent small

:22:34. > :22:36.charities that as men was apartment -- that as members of parliament we

:22:37. > :22:39.get to know better than other members of society. It is for them

:22:40. > :22:43.but we have to ensure that the larger charities have the highest

:22:44. > :22:50.quality of governance. That really comes down to trustees.

:22:51. > :22:57.It has been a torrid year in many respects towards how those large

:22:58. > :23:00.charities have behaved, whether it has been scandals of high salaries

:23:01. > :23:05.of chief executives and management teams of chief executives and

:23:06. > :23:09.management team to of politicisation, or, above all, it

:23:10. > :23:12.has been the question of fund raising, inappropriate use of

:23:13. > :23:17.fundraisers on our high streets, and of course the tragic case of Olive

:23:18. > :23:21.Cook that we have heard about. With pleasure. I thank the honourable

:23:22. > :23:24.gentleman forgiving way, he is making a very strong speech. Part of

:23:25. > :23:29.it is about the public having confidence of how much of their

:23:30. > :23:31.pound is going to the good work, the good cause, particularly when

:23:32. > :23:37.sometimes some of the larger charities, there have been issues of

:23:38. > :23:41.how much is going on overheads and administration. That is a very

:23:42. > :23:46.strong point, and I want to come onto that, how we can ensure proper

:23:47. > :23:49.financial management of charities, and that cuts in both directions in

:23:50. > :23:53.terms of how they governed themselves and what percentage of

:23:54. > :23:57.their organisation and resources are deployed on central management. The

:23:58. > :24:01.last and of course most prominent has been the Kids Company scandal,

:24:02. > :24:05.which has raised all manner of questions about the governance of

:24:06. > :24:09.our most high profile and largest charities,, particularly their

:24:10. > :24:13.capacity to handle the finances appropriately. I don't want to dwell

:24:14. > :24:17.on Kids Company, it is an outlier, but it has done huge damage to other

:24:18. > :24:22.charities, and that is why those who have been at the heart of it, and

:24:23. > :24:27.indeed Government who have worked with Kids Company, has to take it

:24:28. > :24:31.seriously, because it is damaging all of our charities throughout the

:24:32. > :24:35.country, and I think the powers contained in this Bill will be

:24:36. > :24:40.tested as to whether, when Barack Kids Company scandals in the future,

:24:41. > :24:43.they enable us to prevent those ineffective and inappropriate

:24:44. > :24:46.trustees to be barred from acting as trustees -- when there are Kids

:24:47. > :24:52.Company scandals. Thank you forgiving way. Isn't this at the

:24:53. > :24:57.heart of the matter, the reality is that the vast majority of people who

:24:58. > :25:01.work, volunteer, or have leadership positions in charities across the

:25:02. > :25:05.UK, generally do the right thing in their day-to-day activities, but

:25:06. > :25:08.what we need to do with this Bill and other initiatives is to try and

:25:09. > :25:11.get that right balance between the governance and allowing them to get

:25:12. > :25:18.on with doing the things they really want to do on a daily basis. My

:25:19. > :25:22.honourable friend make the point perfectly. It is important to

:25:23. > :25:29.remember that the core activities of our territories are really -- rarely

:25:30. > :25:33.questioned. They are usually performed incredibly well,

:25:34. > :25:37.sensitively and appropriately. The scandals and disappointments tend to

:25:38. > :25:40.come from the way the operation of other charities occurs, and that is

:25:41. > :25:47.why it is incredibly important that trustees playing their full role in

:25:48. > :25:51.managing those organisations, scrutinising and supporting them, as

:25:52. > :25:55.do the directors, the nonexecutive directors of our companies. And so

:25:56. > :26:00.the role of a trustee has to be at the heart of the matter. And here

:26:01. > :26:04.the new Bill is important, the power to bar individuals was not

:26:05. > :26:07.appropriate to be trustees, and who bring charities into disrepute is

:26:08. > :26:11.incredibly important. I would be interested to know from the Minister

:26:12. > :26:16.how many trustees he believes that would apply to in an average year.

:26:17. > :26:19.Is this going to have a marginal difference, or is it going to have a

:26:20. > :26:24.more significant one? And preventing trustees from just moving on from

:26:25. > :26:28.damaging an organisation and then being able to continue in many

:26:29. > :26:33.others. We all know that many people, many good people, are

:26:34. > :26:37.trustees of several charities, and so inevitably the bad apples, too,

:26:38. > :26:41.are involved in many charities, and we want to ensure that they cannot

:26:42. > :26:45.just continue to do so. The power to issue warnings to charities I think

:26:46. > :26:49.is important of those charities consider that there actions, the

:26:50. > :26:52.Charity Commission considers that their actions amount to misconduct

:26:53. > :26:58.or mismanagement. Of course that must be done proportionately, and

:26:59. > :27:01.the Charity Commission has not always acted proportionally in other

:27:02. > :27:10.issues, as we heard from the honourable member in the issue of

:27:11. > :27:14.the Plymouth Brethren, which I would have supported the campaign on. Many

:27:15. > :27:17.involved in the third sector have expressed concern that the Bill

:27:18. > :27:22.gives the Commission the benefit of the doubt. But I think bearing in

:27:23. > :27:25.mind the portents of raising public trust in our charities -- the

:27:26. > :27:30.importance. I think it is essential now that we have a strong regulator

:27:31. > :27:34.that has the tools to act, and this Bill does provide that. I do have

:27:35. > :27:39.some questions on the roles of trustees, or thoughts for the

:27:40. > :27:42.Minister. The first one really is that it is absolutely essential,

:27:43. > :27:48.Kids Company showbiz, and it sounds a very simple point to make, it is

:27:49. > :27:53.obvious is essential -- Kids Company is showed this. A Board of Trustees

:27:54. > :27:56.must contain the range of expertise. That within the guidance of the

:27:57. > :28:00.charity committee, but clearly it doesn't would happen. In particular,

:28:01. > :28:05.the right range of financial expertise. When charities reach a

:28:06. > :28:10.certain size, they are, like larger companies, they would qualify for

:28:11. > :28:14.being in the FTSE 250, these are huge organisations, they require

:28:15. > :28:18.individuals with genuine financial expertise and knowledge of financial

:28:19. > :28:24.controls, so that they can scrutinise the organisation and hold

:28:25. > :28:33.it to account. I hear what the honourable member was saying. My

:28:34. > :28:38.concern is that, and the honourable lady also referred to this, possible

:28:39. > :28:43.regulations for larger charities. My concern is how that is divide, my

:28:44. > :28:46.concern is that within that, one might bring in the smaller

:28:47. > :28:51.charities. Does the honourable member not share my concern of the

:28:52. > :28:56.difficulty of attracting officers to the role of, in particular, as my

:28:57. > :28:59.experience has shown, being treasurer of a charitable

:29:00. > :29:02.organisation? I do share that concern. We all know in other

:29:03. > :29:06.organisations we are involved in how difficult it can be to find good

:29:07. > :29:10.people, particularly as it has been said, younger people to come forward

:29:11. > :29:14.and act as trustees. Incidentally, the charity sector is a lot more

:29:15. > :29:19.diverse than corporate sector. I think about 40% of charity trustees

:29:20. > :29:23.are women, which is not the same for the corporate sector. But it is

:29:24. > :29:26.important that we don't put off people from getting involved in

:29:27. > :29:31.this. It may be that the time has come that one size fits all doesn't

:29:32. > :29:34.work, and largest charities, who are really the upholders of public trust

:29:35. > :29:38.and confidence in charitable giving more generally, they are very large

:29:39. > :29:43.and we are encouraging charities to merge and get larger, that those

:29:44. > :29:47.charities should be subject to far greater scrutiny and a different

:29:48. > :29:53.regime from the small ones that we all know in our constituencies and

:29:54. > :29:59.want to see Fry. -- thrive. For the very small charities, there may be

:30:00. > :30:02.needs to be some sort of Charity Commission calls that would be

:30:03. > :30:07.trustee can go on to ensure that they do have the necessary

:30:08. > :30:13.understanding of the role will quiet -- course. This is a point that I

:30:14. > :30:17.wanted to make in a moment. By the Charity Commission's own reckoning,

:30:18. > :30:21.actually knowledge of governments, rules and best practice is quite

:30:22. > :30:25.limited amongst our trustees -- governance. I don't blame them, they

:30:26. > :30:27.are busy people and they are doing this voluntarily and we want to

:30:28. > :30:34.encourage that. But knowledge is quite limited, and awareness of some

:30:35. > :30:37.of the guidance but out, like for example CC three, which is the

:30:38. > :30:41.essential trustee guide, knowledge of that is quite modest. The surveys

:30:42. > :30:46.that the Charity Commission have put out to trustees of both larger and

:30:47. > :30:50.smaller charities suggest that actually basic functions of being a

:30:51. > :30:54.trustee or not widely known by our trustees. So anything the Charity

:30:55. > :30:57.Commission can do to boost awareness, without putting off our

:30:58. > :31:01.trustees, is absolutely essential and I would like to see the Charity

:31:02. > :31:04.Commission, I know because I have spoken to them, they do take that

:31:05. > :31:07.seriously, and they have got to do something to be is that awareness

:31:08. > :31:14.and support trustees in a way that strikes the right balance between

:31:15. > :31:18.not deterring people and making sure they know what they are supposed to

:31:19. > :31:21.do -- to boast that awareness. It is actually quite scary how few

:31:22. > :31:26.trustees understand they're responsible it is, particular in

:31:27. > :31:31.terms of finance. I thank the Judd forgiving way, he has been extremely

:31:32. > :31:34.generous with his time. -- honourable gentleman. Is it

:31:35. > :31:38.important that anybody who wants what's best for their community to

:31:39. > :31:41.support the good cause doesn't feel excluded from being a trustee

:31:42. > :31:44.because he doesn't have qualifications, but it is then

:31:45. > :31:47.important that the Charity Commission helps build the skills

:31:48. > :31:51.that they need, because I wouldn't want it to be a graduate only

:31:52. > :31:55.sector? That is important, but I do come back to our biggest charities,

:31:56. > :31:58.these are major organisations dealing with hundreds of millions of

:31:59. > :32:04.pounds of not just the public's money that the taxpayer's money, and

:32:05. > :32:09.some of them, as I say, I am nervous to dwell on Kids Company, but the

:32:10. > :32:13.trustees had very little relevant expertise, one was a celebrity

:32:14. > :32:17.hairdresser, nothing wrong with that, but I don't like that person

:32:18. > :32:21.necessarily to have expertise of running a major multinational

:32:22. > :32:25.business as Kids Company had become. So I think it is absolutely is

:32:26. > :32:30.ensure that these organisations step up and appropriate trustees, and I

:32:31. > :32:34.would like to see this Bill on the Government push our biggest

:32:35. > :32:37.charities to have those individuals. I never charities are required to

:32:38. > :32:40.have an annual return to confirm whether or not they have renewed

:32:41. > :32:43.their financial controls, clearly that is an important lesson coming

:32:44. > :32:48.out of recent scandals, anything we can do to be that up without tearing

:32:49. > :32:53.the little guys is absolutely essential. -- to beef that up.

:32:54. > :32:57.Unlike companies, most trustees do not meet in mixed board meetings

:32:58. > :33:01.with their management, so the interplay between the two is often

:33:02. > :33:05.limited. Those trustees who take their role mysteriously and work

:33:06. > :33:09.hard at it no doubt get to know the senior management -- take their role

:33:10. > :33:14.seriously. But others don't, and often rely, crucially of course, on

:33:15. > :33:19.the chief executive, who may be, as we have seen in other scandals, and

:33:20. > :33:22.overbearing founder who might be incredibly charismatic and powerful

:33:23. > :33:25.as knowledgeable about your browser is, but it is difficult scrutinise,

:33:26. > :33:31.to stretch them and to hold them into account. That would be

:33:32. > :33:36.something that would be important, larger charities darted to have

:33:37. > :33:38.mixed board meetings between executive and nonexecutive

:33:39. > :33:42.directors. I would like the Government to think about the role

:33:43. > :33:45.of overbearing founders, because that is an incredibly important

:33:46. > :33:49.issue, and anybody who is involved in a charitable sector sees that,

:33:50. > :33:53.where somebody who may be a brilliant individual founds a

:33:54. > :33:56.charity, and then it really gets out of control. They are extremely

:33:57. > :34:00.difficult to scrutinise, and pats the time comes where they should

:34:01. > :34:04.step aside or hand over to somebody else -- perhaps the time comes.

:34:05. > :34:07.Maybe it would be appropriate that these individuals have term limits,

:34:08. > :34:15.as you would have for the chairman of a public company, where at the

:34:16. > :34:17.end of term they have to go through a rigorous procedure to be

:34:18. > :34:20.reappointed. Lastly I want to raise conflict-of-interest. We see at a

:34:21. > :34:23.number of even a number of even of our are riddled with

:34:24. > :34:26.conflict-of-interest. Trustees have friends and relatives employed in

:34:27. > :34:29.the organisation, trustees sometimes get benefits which are not

:34:30. > :34:33.appropriate. I don't think the Bill particular speaks about, and that is

:34:34. > :34:37.something that does a lot of damage to undermine confidence in the

:34:38. > :34:40.charitable sector last point I want to make is whether the Minister

:34:41. > :34:44.really believe that the Charity Commission has the capacity to

:34:45. > :34:48.regulate the vast number of charities. We have thousands of

:34:49. > :34:52.charities in this country, some are extremely complex organisations, as

:34:53. > :34:56.we have seen. Does the Charity Commission actually have the

:34:57. > :35:00.resources to do that? I suspect not, and many involved in the sector

:35:01. > :35:02.believe it doesn't. Some of our most experienced TV executives now

:35:03. > :35:06.believe that the time has come for some form of beefing up of the

:35:07. > :35:11.Charity Commission through some form of self funding -- some of our most

:35:12. > :35:15.experienced charity executives. They might contribute some money towards

:35:16. > :35:20.ensuring that the wider sector has trust and confidence maintained, so

:35:21. > :35:23.that the Charity Commission has the funding required to really see that

:35:24. > :35:29.happen. I will close on that point, because I know the Minister wants to

:35:30. > :35:31.speak. In conclusion, trustees are absolutely essential, and the

:35:32. > :35:35.trustees of our biggest charities are letting down the entire sector.

:35:36. > :35:39.Scandals like his company matter, because they are harming the ball

:35:40. > :35:44.charities, they are the lifeblood of charitable giving, -- the small

:35:45. > :35:48.charities. I certainly take huge pleasure in getting to know and

:35:49. > :35:51.working with small charities, and those who hold the position is in

:35:52. > :35:56.big organisations need to start up and behave as if they were the

:35:57. > :35:57.nonexecutive directors of a large in the nonexecutive directors of a

:35:58. > :36:05.large portable organisation that they are. Louise Haig. Thank you,

:36:06. > :36:09.Madam Deputy Speaker. Today is my first time at the dispatch box

:36:10. > :36:12.responding to a Bill, so may I say it is a pleasure to listen to learn

:36:13. > :36:16.it contributions of honourable members of both sides of the House.

:36:17. > :36:19.I would have liked a few more honourable friends behind me today,

:36:20. > :36:24.but I can assure the House that it is not a signal of disinterest from

:36:25. > :36:29.these benchers, but our wholehearted support to the objectives of the

:36:30. > :36:32.Government in this Bill. This has been an important and helpful

:36:33. > :36:35.debate, as I would like to congratulate all members who have

:36:36. > :36:38.participated, and everybody who has been involved in getting the Bill to

:36:39. > :36:42.this place, particularly our colleagues in the other place. We

:36:43. > :36:44.have had a small number of contributions, but fortunately this

:36:45. > :36:50.debate has been defined by its quality, not its quantity. The

:36:51. > :36:54.honourable lady, who brings extensive experience in the sector,

:36:55. > :36:57.spoke about the difficulties in in courage in trustees to charities,

:36:58. > :37:05.concerns around giving the Charity Commission is the power of judgment

:37:06. > :37:08.of a power trustees who has committed misconduct ample warning

:37:09. > :37:12.notice, risking Amish to trustees' predation.

:37:13. > :37:19.The honourable gentleman spoke about how it could not be viewed in a

:37:20. > :37:27.vacuum and charities are being asked to do more for less as the cuts bite

:37:28. > :37:35.further. The honourable lady paid tribute to the volunteers in her

:37:36. > :37:41.constituency, as we all do across all of our constituencies. It

:37:42. > :37:45.fulfils a much needed demand. I will not put your patients to test by

:37:46. > :37:54.listing all of those in my constituency. The honourable member

:37:55. > :38:00.spoke about the fundraising preference service. The honourable

:38:01. > :38:04.lady spoke about her own experience of volunteering. The impact of small

:38:05. > :38:08.charities in her own constituency and her own private memos Bill in

:38:09. > :38:14.supporting the renowned fantastic work of Great Ormond Street. The

:38:15. > :38:19.honourable gentleman for Newark, a former governors practitioner spoke

:38:20. > :38:25.about how we must make sure that larger Chad -- smaller charities

:38:26. > :38:32.must not pay the price for larger charities misbehaving. He has said

:38:33. > :38:44.that kids charity is an outlier at best. The blaze -- today's debate

:38:45. > :38:52.has allowed... We know the special role charities play in Agassi juicy

:38:53. > :39:01.-- in our constituencies and in society as a whole. Bretonsdonate

:39:02. > :39:06.what they can do the causes close to the heart or to those in need in the

:39:07. > :39:11.committee around them. Charities are also the vehicle by which many of us

:39:12. > :39:14.can try to make a difference to the committees in which we live. The

:39:15. > :39:23.estimate is that nearly three quarters of us do some form of work

:39:24. > :39:27.for charities each year. Only 1 million trustees who give their time

:39:28. > :39:31.to make our society a kinder and more interesting place, they are the

:39:32. > :39:35.best of Britain. We know that charities have a good deal of

:39:36. > :39:42.goodwill and support. As my honourable friend said, they support

:39:43. > :39:50.our honourable, how sick and elderly and give the chance to save lives.

:39:51. > :39:58.It is right that charities and their regulator have the right powers when

:39:59. > :40:09.misconduct occurs. When wrongdoing does occur, the regulator must we

:40:10. > :40:17.able to take action. It is simply common sense to not appoint

:40:18. > :40:21.inappropriate people as trustees. As mothers across the House know, the

:40:22. > :40:24.commission already has a wide range of compliance and enabling powers

:40:25. > :40:31.but there are underlying weaknesses, including a limit on the ability to

:40:32. > :40:36.tackle abuse in charities. The powers were not powers you would

:40:37. > :40:41.expect a regulator to hold. They did not go far enough, so we welcome the

:40:42. > :40:44.strengthening of those powers. In securing these, we will enable the

:40:45. > :40:51.Charity Commission to work more effectively. We know it is of utmost

:40:52. > :40:56.importance to find the balance between good governance, which gives

:40:57. > :41:01.people confidence, while ensuring the charities are free to do what

:41:02. > :41:07.they do best. They will build a better society, to innovate, to

:41:08. > :41:12.respond to the challenges of today and tomorrow and to deliver value

:41:13. > :41:20.for money. As we have heard, the vast majority of charities and

:41:21. > :41:26.trustees acted in the best interest of their community. A few

:41:27. > :41:32.unscrupulous individuals undermine confidence in the whole sector. We

:41:33. > :41:36.welcome the new powers to disqualify trustees. We would not be an

:41:37. > :41:40.effective opposition if we did not point out areas of room for

:41:41. > :41:42.improvement. We are disappointed that the Government will seek to

:41:43. > :41:47.overrule the Other Place in removing clause nine. It is a vital and

:41:48. > :41:58.Madrid that protects charities from arbitrary rulings asking them to

:41:59. > :42:03.dispose of completions. -- of contributions. Other honourable

:42:04. > :42:06.members have made good points on fundraising, the very important

:42:07. > :42:09.protection of minority views, something that we in this House

:42:10. > :42:13.should hold so dear, and insuring the balance between big elation and

:42:14. > :42:18.enabling charities to do good in their communities. I know the

:42:19. > :42:24.Minister will have been listening closely so that we can improve this

:42:25. > :42:28.Bill together at committee stage on across party basis. We are happy to

:42:29. > :42:35.support this Bill through a second reading.

:42:36. > :42:39.Can I thank all the honourable members for their excellent

:42:40. > :42:41.contributions to this debate. These are clearly issues that are

:42:42. > :42:46.important to them and their constituents. Can also my welcome

:42:47. > :42:50.and congratulations to the member for Sheffield Healy on her first

:42:51. > :42:56.outing at the dispatch box. It will be the first of many. It is clear

:42:57. > :42:58.the House has great respect and admiration for the good work

:42:59. > :43:04.currently being done by charities throughout the UK. I also know there

:43:05. > :43:08.is much experience and expertise of charities and voluntary amongst

:43:09. > :43:11.honourable members, as was demonstrated during some of the

:43:12. > :43:14.speeches today. There is or so a strong desire to protect the

:43:15. > :43:18.privileged position that charities hold in the eyes of the public, the

:43:19. > :43:21.mistreated through the latest world having index, which is bound Britain

:43:22. > :43:29.to be the most generous nation in Europe. We have a strong, diverse

:43:30. > :43:32.and growing charity sector. Over the period of the last Parliament, the

:43:33. > :43:39.number of registered charities in England and Wales has increased by

:43:40. > :43:46.over 2000, to 106 to 5000. Their combined income has grown by 10

:43:47. > :43:50.billion and is just short of ?70 billion a year. Before I guess the

:43:51. > :43:55.points that have been raised by a number of honourable members today,

:43:56. > :43:59.I believe it is also worth the time to echo a point that has been made

:44:00. > :44:02.throughout this debate. The vast majority of charities in this

:44:03. > :44:08.country do excellent work and are run by good, honest and generous

:44:09. > :44:13.people. They wish to hope those most in need and make the world a better

:44:14. > :44:20.place. I particularly want to pay tribute to charity trustees without

:44:21. > :44:22.whose unpaid effort, there would be no charity sector. For their

:44:23. > :44:30.selfless passion and commitment, they have my respect and my sincere

:44:31. > :44:34.thanks. However, their good work is threatened by a small minority who

:44:35. > :44:38.seek to abuse charitable status for their own ends. This Bill will help

:44:39. > :44:44.the independent regulator take robust action against that small

:44:45. > :44:47.minority and, by doing so, will reinforce public trust and

:44:48. > :44:53.confidence and protect the reputation of charities as a whole.

:44:54. > :44:57.The powers in the Bill have brought support from the charitable sector

:44:58. > :44:59.and indeed the public. And the Charity Commission has been involved

:45:00. > :45:06.throughout the process of developing these proposals. They have also been

:45:07. > :45:14.subjected to public consultation and preach legislative scrutiny, both of

:45:15. > :45:19.which helped reform and refine the powers. Some have argued that the

:45:20. > :45:24.Bill did Charity Commission too much power, or some other powers are too

:45:25. > :45:33.broad. I would say that the Bill seeks to achieve a balance. The new

:45:34. > :45:39.commission is to be broad enough to useful, too narrow and they could be

:45:40. > :45:41.exported by the speakers. The charities need to know the

:45:42. > :45:47.circumstances when the commission will use its powers. I think this

:45:48. > :45:52.Bill achieves the right balance but I would also like to draw honourable

:45:53. > :45:56.members' attention to a couple of safeguards that will exist. The

:45:57. > :46:05.Charity Commission is subject to a general Judy under section 16 of the

:46:06. > :46:08.charities act, 2011. This means that the committee must be satisfied that

:46:09. > :46:13.the execution of its powers will be in line with the principles of best

:46:14. > :46:18.regulatory prep is. Including that it is proportionate, accountable,

:46:19. > :46:23.consistent, transparent and targeted only at cases in which action is

:46:24. > :46:32.needed. Would the Minister give way? Of course. It is a pity that

:46:33. > :46:36.was not invoked with the whole interpretation of public benefit was

:46:37. > :46:38.being debated and that the Charity Commission did not refer themselves

:46:39. > :46:43.back to that then. With the Minister address my concerns during the

:46:44. > :46:47.course of his speech about the fact that this Bill could be enforced

:46:48. > :46:54.before there is a clear definition of nonviolent exhume is, bearing in

:46:55. > :46:59.mind that the Government's strategy says it would give the commission

:47:00. > :47:05.powers to disqualify trustees for wide reasons including past

:47:06. > :47:10.conduct, including a variety of abuses that the commission things

:47:11. > :47:23.has occurred a victory mizzen, which in the same strategy includes

:47:24. > :47:29.nonviolent exhume is in question? -- nonviolent extremism? She raises

:47:30. > :47:37.some important issues and I do intend to deal with those issues in

:47:38. > :47:42.full. If I can, as she has asked, I will deal with the religion one

:47:43. > :47:48.first. Religious charities do play a hugely important role in our public

:47:49. > :47:59.life. Over 25% average to charities have a religious purpose -- 25% of

:48:00. > :48:10.registered charities. There is no question at all that that status is

:48:11. > :48:14.under threat at all. All of the religious charities have no

:48:15. > :48:21.difficulty at all in devastating the public benefit. She did raised the

:48:22. > :48:25.issues of the Plymouth have macro brethren, that was an exception, and

:48:26. > :48:30.that was resolved ultimately in a sensible way even though it did take

:48:31. > :48:33.too long. I will come back to some of the other issues she raised later

:48:34. > :48:38.on in my comments. All of the proposed commission

:48:39. > :48:42.powers in the Bill have a right of appeal. In most cases, to the

:48:43. > :48:51.Charity Tribunal, ensuring there is in independent judicial oversight of

:48:52. > :49:00.the powers. Has also some question around the rehabilitation of

:49:01. > :49:03.offenders. The Government believes that individuals with such serious

:49:04. > :49:06.conviction should not be able to hold the position of charity

:49:07. > :49:10.trustees, and have control over charitable funds and fundraising

:49:11. > :49:16.activities, until those convictions are spent for a waiver from the

:49:17. > :49:22.disco of obtained from the commission. The way the regime

:49:23. > :49:27.exists to qualify individuals who wish to be a trustee to apply for

:49:28. > :49:33.bed school of patient to be overturned. An application would be

:49:34. > :49:37.considered on a case-by-case basis and they would take into account the

:49:38. > :49:40.nature and seriousness of the conduct that has resulted in the

:49:41. > :49:52.conviction and consequent job discoloured vocation. A decision of

:49:53. > :49:57.the commission could be referred to the tribunal, which would look at it

:49:58. > :50:01.completely afresh. That is fair as it protects charities and

:50:02. > :50:06.individuals who resent a known risk while providing for the

:50:07. > :50:12.rehabilitation of offenders and their way back into trusteeship on a

:50:13. > :50:15.case-by-case basis. People have also raised concerns about the warning

:50:16. > :50:23.power and that there is no right of appeal to the tribunal. There is, of

:50:24. > :50:28.course, a right of appeal which is judicial review. There is the same

:50:29. > :50:32.position is now whether commission publishes its operational compliance

:50:33. > :50:36.case reports into non-enquiry cases that have attracted public interest

:50:37. > :50:41.and highlight important lessons for charity trustees. The Bill provides

:50:42. > :50:46.for a period of ribs and a to be made in relation to an official

:50:47. > :50:49.warning which the commission would be obliged to consider. There is

:50:50. > :50:56.then the option of judicial review. We consider that proportionate. A

:50:57. > :51:03.right to appeal, an official warning, could tie up the commission

:51:04. > :51:06.in red tape, rendering the power impact go for its purpose. The last

:51:07. > :51:10.thing we want to do is to give the Charity Commission powers that it

:51:11. > :51:14.cannot use and for which it would be good for failing to exercise the

:51:15. > :51:21.powers for several years hence. The joint committee that undertook three

:51:22. > :51:24.legislative scrutiny agreed that with proper safeguards, judicial

:51:25. > :51:30.review was the appropriate route for appeals. I will now turn to

:51:31. > :51:33.fundraising. I was deeply disappointed to see the extent of

:51:34. > :51:37.poor practice by large charities in relation to their fundraising,

:51:38. > :51:43.widely exposed by the media earlier this year by the sad death of Olive

:51:44. > :51:47.Cook. Since then, further damaging cases have come to light. Once

:51:48. > :51:51.again, the reputation of charities was being put at risk are the

:51:52. > :51:57.actions of a small minority. Public trust and confidence in charities

:51:58. > :52:05.has not been this low since 2007. Charities are now ranked 11th in the

:52:06. > :52:12.most trusted institutions was that only 48% of people said they trusted

:52:13. > :52:14.charities. In response to the fundraising scandals, we acted

:52:15. > :52:20.swiftly to amend the Bill in the Other Place to reinforce charity

:52:21. > :52:25.trustees' responsible at sea for the fundraising. Calls 14 of the Bill

:52:26. > :52:29.will encourage charities to exercise greater control and oversight over

:52:30. > :52:33.those who fundraising for the organisation. It will ensure there

:52:34. > :52:37.are proper processes for dealing with honourable people and generally

:52:38. > :52:41.safeguard the public. Large charities will make this commitment

:52:42. > :52:44.public through the charities' annual report so I can hold a charity to

:52:45. > :52:50.account for the way it interacts with them.

:52:51. > :52:56.I asked Stuart Etherington to conduct an independent review of how

:52:57. > :53:00.fundraising regulation can be improved in order to safeguard from

:53:01. > :53:02.rubble people with better respect to the public's wishes of how

:53:03. > :53:05.fundraising regulation can be improved in order to safeguard from

:53:06. > :53:12.rubble people with better respect to the public's wishes over how and

:53:13. > :53:20.accepted the review's recommendations and I'm encouraging

:53:21. > :53:24.the sector to move to make self-regulation work. I expect the

:53:25. > :53:27.sector to fully back the new fundraising regulator, both

:53:28. > :53:31.financially and through compliance with its moons. In the past few

:53:32. > :53:37.weeks, I have announced that Lord Michael grade has been recruited as

:53:38. > :53:40.chair of the new body and will set up the initial phase of operations.

:53:41. > :53:45.I am confident that he is the right man to lead this important task, and

:53:46. > :53:48.that the sector will unite behind him to address these urgent issues

:53:49. > :53:53.and restore public trust in fundraising. The new regulator will

:53:54. > :53:57.also host the fundraising preference service, a tool which will allow

:53:58. > :54:01.people to opt out of receiving fundraising requests, and which will

:54:02. > :54:09.stop charities wasting resources on approaching those who do not wish to

:54:10. > :54:11.hear from them. A working group is currently being set up to establish

:54:12. > :54:14.how the service will work in practice. No doubt in addition to a

:54:15. > :54:18.simple reset button, there will be a small number of nuanced options

:54:19. > :54:22.should people wish to only opt into certain charities. Crucially, it

:54:23. > :54:27.will provide anybody with a way to get off charity contact lists, which

:54:28. > :54:31.they no longer wish to be on. Charities need to demonstrate the

:54:32. > :54:34.fundraising and self-regulation can work in the best interests of the

:54:35. > :54:38.public. They will have the chance to do so at a summit tomorrow, where

:54:39. > :54:43.the next steps for implementing better self-regulation will be

:54:44. > :54:46.announced. I hope this will be a constructive and collaborative

:54:47. > :54:49.meeting where charities showed their commitment to the new self regulator

:54:50. > :54:53.and to meeting the public's expectations. Should they fail to do

:54:54. > :55:00.so, I stand ready to step in to stave guard the trust in charities

:55:01. > :55:04.-- to safeguard. For this purpose, I will be seeking to add two reserve

:55:05. > :55:09.powers as part of the Charities Bill. One, to compel charities to

:55:10. > :55:13.sign up to the new regulator, and a second to mandate the Charity

:55:14. > :55:16.Commission with regulation, should the sector failed to rise to the

:55:17. > :55:23.challenge. I also welcome the Charity Commission's revision of its

:55:24. > :55:26.guidance for charity trustees on fundraising, which the Commission

:55:27. > :55:30.has published today. This reminds trustees of their duties and

:55:31. > :55:33.responsibilities in relation to fundraising, including the need to

:55:34. > :55:37.protect the charities' predation and bat of the wider sector. And

:55:38. > :55:42.finally, I would like to turn to social investment. I mentioned the

:55:43. > :55:47.support that we give it in the Bill. As laid out, many of you will have

:55:48. > :55:51.seen in the Autumn Statement, this governor back row has shown a strong

:55:52. > :55:59.commitment in social investment -- Goffin. -- Government. The Charity

:56:00. > :56:03.investment enables them to increase their sustainability by making

:56:04. > :56:07.financial return, as well as furthering the purpose of the

:56:08. > :56:12.charity. Whilst most charities can make social investment under the

:56:13. > :56:17.current law, it can be very complex, and sometimes costly to do so. The

:56:18. > :56:21.new social investment power of the charities and cause 15 was

:56:22. > :56:25.recommended and drafted by the Law Commission to overcome that

:56:26. > :56:28.complexity and reduce the cost of investment for charities. It was

:56:29. > :56:33.widely supported on consultation. The UK has already recognised world

:56:34. > :56:37.leading social investment with pioneering action by Government such

:56:38. > :56:41.as setting up big society capital, as well as stipulating the use of

:56:42. > :56:44.social impact bonds to deliver services to some of the most

:56:45. > :56:48.disadvantaged in society through initiatives such as social outcomes

:56:49. > :56:52.funds. With the power of social investment conferred on charities by

:56:53. > :56:58.this Bill, we take another step forward in building sustainable

:56:59. > :57:02.social investment ecosystems. Very briefly I will now turn to some of

:57:03. > :57:09.the interventions and species that honourable members made. --

:57:10. > :57:14.speeches. My friend back River South West Wiltshire asked about the

:57:15. > :57:17.transparency of direct debit fundraisers professional fundraisers

:57:18. > :57:20.are already required to state how much they are paid when asking the

:57:21. > :57:24.public to donate, but I would be happy to discuss this further at

:57:25. > :57:29.committee stage. I was delighted to see the contribution from the SNP. I

:57:30. > :57:32.believe the honourable member may well be setting a precedent and

:57:33. > :57:37.English votes that the SNP will not be taking part in any other stages

:57:38. > :57:43.of bills, and I hope that President will now stand. The honourable

:57:44. > :57:47.friend for Erawan, thank you for a very uplifting speech and thinking

:57:48. > :57:52.about the volunteering day, I hope it sets a precedent for other MPs.

:57:53. > :57:59.Great to see that that is now going to become an annual process, and I

:58:00. > :58:03.certainly wish that well. I thank the honourable member from Clywd

:58:04. > :58:07.south for supporting the fundraising preference service, it is really

:58:08. > :58:09.important that that works and works successfully for the sake of

:58:10. > :58:16.fundraising going forward. I thank also my honourable friend for

:58:17. > :58:23.Brownhills, who in gauge as with the wonderful story of one of the

:58:24. > :58:27.villages knitting poppies -- who engaged us. That demonstrates the

:58:28. > :58:30.value of civil society on the contributions of charities. She is

:58:31. > :58:33.right when she says that small kindness can make a very big

:58:34. > :58:40.difference. On the role of trustees and setting a maximum term under

:58:41. > :58:45.statute, legislating for a maximum trustee term does not appeal for

:58:46. > :58:49.several reasons. The evidence is that 50% of charities are carrying

:58:50. > :58:56.at least one trustee vacancy. And we must be mindful that the trustee

:58:57. > :59:00.role is a voluntary one. On the issue of the impact on small

:59:01. > :59:06.charities, which was raised by my honourable friend as well, she does

:59:07. > :59:10.make an important point about minimising regulation for small

:59:11. > :59:14.charities. As did the honourable member for Clywd South, actually. We

:59:15. > :59:19.are very keen to minimise the burden of regulation on small charities.

:59:20. > :59:22.For example, the new reporting requirement on fundraising calls for

:59:23. > :59:27.team will only apply to charities with income over ?1 million. --

:59:28. > :59:32.clause 14. The new fundraising self regulator will need to consider

:59:33. > :59:34.exemptions for small charities for the fundraising preference service.

:59:35. > :59:40.I thought my honourable friend the member of the Newark made a very

:59:41. > :59:43.strong speech, which clearly set out how big charities are causing very

:59:44. > :59:47.big concerns for some of the smaller charities across the country, and it

:59:48. > :59:53.is certainly our intention in government to try and protect them.

:59:54. > :59:57.Very quickly responding to some of the opposition concerns that were

:59:58. > :00:01.raised about campaigning. Just to be clear, charities cannot engage in

:00:02. > :00:06.party political campaigning, and where they undertake any other types

:00:07. > :00:11.of campaigning to support their charitable purposes they must avoid

:00:12. > :00:15.adverse perceptions of their independence and political

:00:16. > :00:19.neutrality. In addition, they must not barking campaigning to such an

:00:20. > :00:23.extent that this compromises their legal status as a charity -- they

:00:24. > :00:30.must not embark. The Commission does provide very clear guidance of what

:00:31. > :00:34.is and what is not permitted. It makes clear that charity organisers

:00:35. > :00:37.of nonparty political campaigning can be a legitimate activity of a

:00:38. > :00:43.charities, and sets out the general principles. There was a concern

:00:44. > :00:47.about official warnings, and should the Commission be able to publish

:00:48. > :00:52.official warnings. Charities exist for public benefit and depend on

:00:53. > :00:55.public support, so there should be transparency and publication of

:00:56. > :00:58.official warnings where the regulator considers it necessary to

:00:59. > :01:03.intervene, unless there is a good reason not to publish those details

:01:04. > :01:07.of those warnings. There should always be an opportunity go to make

:01:08. > :01:13.representations about the factual accuracy of the statutory warning

:01:14. > :01:16.before it is published, a process for representations is included in

:01:17. > :01:20.the bell. There were some concerns about the official warnings on the

:01:21. > :01:24.scope being too broad -- in the Bill. We consider that the scope is

:01:25. > :01:29.right and clear under the Bill's provision of warning should be in

:01:30. > :01:35.respect of a breach of statutory provision or breach of trust or

:01:36. > :01:40.duty. Turning to my honourable friend four Congleton very quickly

:01:41. > :01:45.before I conclude, her concern about extremism. Extremism or terrorist

:01:46. > :01:51.abuse of charities of any kind is very rare indeed, but must be

:01:52. > :01:55.addressed to protect public trust and confidence in charities. Whilst

:01:56. > :01:58.it may not represent most of the Charity Commission's compliance

:01:59. > :02:02.work, it does represent a very serious risk to public trust and

:02:03. > :02:05.confidence. The proposed reforms in this Bill are not specifically

:02:06. > :02:10.focused on counterterrorism or extremism. They would enable the

:02:11. > :02:16.Commission to better tackle all types of abuse of charity. So the

:02:17. > :02:20.Bill does not seek to define extremism, and nor should it.

:02:21. > :02:24.Charities and their work can be an important protection against

:02:25. > :02:28.extremism. No intention, we have absolutely no intention, as I have

:02:29. > :02:32.said, of undermining freedom of religion or freedom of speech, and

:02:33. > :02:37.the Bill has been certified as being compatible with the CHC. I'm going

:02:38. > :02:41.to finish now because I know a lot of people want to get away from the

:02:42. > :02:43.chamber today. I'm going to finish by saying, this Bill is about

:02:44. > :02:47.protecting charities and safeguarding their place in the

:02:48. > :02:51.public's minds. It is about ensuring charities will not fund raise in a

:02:52. > :02:55.manner that will victimise the most fun rubble in our society. And it is

:02:56. > :03:00.about giving charities -- vulnerable. Doing charities in new

:03:01. > :03:07.way to utilise their assets. Charities rely on public trust and

:03:08. > :03:15.confidence. Abuse, where it happens, must be rooted out. This has

:03:16. > :03:19.support, 83% of the public and 92% of charities support new powers

:03:20. > :03:23.being introduced for the Commission. Charities play a vital role in

:03:24. > :03:26.communities, and this Bill aims to bolster their position in the

:03:27. > :03:29.public's trust and help them to continue the good work that they

:03:30. > :03:34.have been doing for hundreds of years, continuing our country's long

:03:35. > :03:40.and rich tradition of charity. On that basis, I commend this Bill to

:03:41. > :03:44.the House. The question is that the Bill be now read a second time. As

:03:45. > :03:50.many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The

:03:51. > :03:56.ayes have it, the ayes have it. Programme motion to be moved. The

:03:57. > :04:01.question is as on the order paper. As many as are of the opinion, say

:04:02. > :04:07."aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes have it. The

:04:08. > :04:12.question is as on the order paper. As many as are of the opinion, say

:04:13. > :04:20."aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes habit. I beg

:04:21. > :04:26.that this House to now adjourned. The question is that this House now

:04:27. > :04:30.adjourned. Norman Lamb. Thank you very much,s. It is a great pleasure

:04:31. > :04:35.to be able to raise a very important issue for debate -- Madam Deputy

:04:36. > :04:38.Speaker. This is three hours earlier than expected, and it is good to see

:04:39. > :04:45.the Minister taking his seat. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to raise an

:04:46. > :04:54.issue of what I think is of profound importance. It is a practice that I

:04:55. > :04:59.think is intolerable, but which carries an, every week of the year,

:05:00. > :05:03.broke the everyday of the year. And that is the shunting of people

:05:04. > :05:08.around the country -- probably every day of the year. Sometimes long

:05:09. > :05:14.distance away from home, at a moment of mental-health prices. Typically,

:05:15. > :05:18.the situation be that somebody, at a moment of acute crisis, would be

:05:19. > :05:23.taken into hospital, but there would be no bed available for them. And so

:05:24. > :05:29.they would be taken away somewhere else in the country. And there are

:05:30. > :05:33.numerous stories of people sometimes being taken literally hundreds of

:05:34. > :05:40.miles away from home, on a regular basis. This is a practice that would

:05:41. > :05:44.never, ever be tolerated in physical health services. You can imagine

:05:45. > :05:48.somebody with a stroke or a heart condition being taken by ambulance

:05:49. > :05:54.and being told, I'm sorry, there is no room at the local hospital, we

:05:55. > :05:58.are taking you to Cumbria, from Norfolk or something of that sort.

:05:59. > :06:03.It would be an regarded as a scandal, so it doesn't happen, and

:06:04. > :06:06.yet it happens every week of the year in mental health. It is what I

:06:07. > :06:14.regard as a complete discrimination at the heart of our NHS, and it is

:06:15. > :06:17.one of the very many examples of how people who suffer from acute mental

:06:18. > :06:23.ill-health are disadvantaged by the system. This is incidentally, this

:06:24. > :06:26.is no criticism of any individual government, this has always

:06:27. > :06:33.happened, there has been a rise, which I will come into a little

:06:34. > :06:35.well, but in very many ways, somebody suffering from mental

:06:36. > :06:40.ill-health simply does not get the same right of access to treatment in

:06:41. > :06:44.a moment of need somebody with physical problems. If any of us in

:06:45. > :06:48.this chamber stopped and thought about it for a single moment we

:06:49. > :06:53.would conclude that you can begin to justify that, and there has to be a

:06:54. > :06:57.programme -- you cannot begin to justify that. We have touted

:06:58. > :07:02.equality of access at the moment of need -- we have to have.

:07:03. > :07:10.I congratulate my friends for securing this debate in an area

:07:11. > :07:13.where he has done so much work. The title of this debate is out of area

:07:14. > :07:24.mental health placements. Is there not also a huge problem in the vast

:07:25. > :07:30.health board areas, where being in the countryside is a huge issue. It

:07:31. > :07:35.meant that constituent of mine would have to travel 50 miles or be sent

:07:36. > :07:44.50 miles away, not the most easiest travelling to rain, to the next

:07:45. > :07:50.board. There is a problem in these great geographical areas. I'm not

:07:51. > :07:54.asking him to come it on the issues of the Welsh National Health Service

:07:55. > :07:59.but I would say it applies to England as well. I'm great will to

:08:00. > :08:02.my friend for raising that Eddie makes an important point. I will

:08:03. > :08:08.address this in more detail later but there is evidence of an

:08:09. > :08:12.increased risk of suicide if you're treated a long way from home, if you

:08:13. > :08:16.are away from family and friends, who will struggle to go and see you.

:08:17. > :08:19.The idea of care as the home is incredibly important in mental

:08:20. > :08:27.health. We should, incidentally, be seeking to be caring for people at

:08:28. > :08:29.home, and not taken into hospital unless it absolutely cannot be

:08:30. > :08:34.avoided. There are moments when it is necessary and, as far as

:08:35. > :08:40.possible, there should be a place close to home. I am grateful. It is

:08:41. > :08:44.not a central point of my honourable friend's debate, but does he agree

:08:45. > :08:49.that one of the unacceptable outcomes of this has been the

:08:50. > :08:55.increased use of the police and police cells for people to be held

:08:56. > :09:03.overnight? That has been the reality of the situation in my constituency.

:09:04. > :09:05.It is a shocking practice and, incidentally, I applaud my

:09:06. > :09:09.honourable friend for the work he has done in his area on this, but

:09:10. > :09:15.the idea of putting someone who is suffering an acute mental illness

:09:16. > :09:22.into a police cell, which is defined in the legislation, unbelievably, as

:09:23. > :09:26.a place of safety, is quite bizarre. It ought not to be tolerated in this

:09:27. > :09:30.day and age. I'm pleased that the Government has indicated an

:09:31. > :09:38.intention to legislate to, in effect, eradicate the problem,

:09:39. > :09:40.completely for under 18 's and to make it an absolute exception for

:09:41. > :09:47.adults will stop we managed to reduce the numbers in England by 50%

:09:48. > :09:52.in the last two years. That was considerable progress. But we need

:09:53. > :09:55.to go further than that and bring an end to an unacceptable practice.

:09:56. > :10:01.Incidentally, it is interesting that where there is the local passion and

:10:02. > :10:16.drive, amazing things are possible. In our capital City of London,

:10:17. > :10:22.something around 20 people were put into police cells. In Sussex, the

:10:23. > :10:27.novel was closer to 400. They can change practices and make people's

:10:28. > :10:34.lives better. He is right to persist with this in Wales, just as I try to

:10:35. > :10:39.do in England. I give way. I thank the honourable member for giving way

:10:40. > :10:42.and may I congratulate him for securing this debate and the work he

:10:43. > :10:47.has done to bring this issue to the fore. A quick comment would be that

:10:48. > :10:51.a police cell will be for someone who is charge of a crime, not for

:10:52. > :10:55.someone who it is unwell. Some of it could be done with better

:10:56. > :10:57.coordination. I had a case in my constituency where available to

:10:58. > :11:01.begin was full so a person was placed in Maidenhead. We then

:11:02. > :11:05.discovered there was someone from Maidenhead in the local treatment

:11:06. > :11:13.unit in Torbay, and we arranged a swap. That sort of story makes you

:11:14. > :11:18.weep. It leaves one feeling that there is a degree of incompetence

:11:19. > :11:24.somewhere. It is a point I will come onto, that a lot of what I want to

:11:25. > :11:29.see happen can be done by that organisation rather than more money.

:11:30. > :11:32.I happen to believe we need more investment in local health services

:11:33. > :11:37.but more can be done by organising things better. I thank my right

:11:38. > :11:41.honourable friend for giving way. I wonder whether he would like to

:11:42. > :11:44.commend the work that south-west London and St George 's have done

:11:45. > :11:50.with a number of local authorities in the area, including mine, whether

:11:51. > :11:54.police work with a nurse to ensure that if the police are dispatched

:11:55. > :11:57.somewhere and someone does have a mental health problem, someone is

:11:58. > :12:06.able to access them immediately and make sure they go to a place of

:12:07. > :12:09.safety rather than a police cell. I would absolutely commend them for

:12:10. > :12:12.that work. My right honourable friend is talking about some record

:12:13. > :12:21.streak triage, which the Minister will be familiar with. We introduced

:12:22. > :12:25.Street triage in a number of places in the country in the last two or

:12:26. > :12:29.three years. There are some I nearing areas like Leicestershire

:12:30. > :12:35.that just went ahead and did it before the national pilot started.

:12:36. > :12:38.The evidence is dramatic that, where you have this collaboration between

:12:39. > :12:44.police and mental health services, with a nurse embedded in the police

:12:45. > :12:49.team, then you achieve amazing results. You reduce the number of

:12:50. > :12:55.people being taken in under that legislation completely, because the

:12:56. > :13:01.nurses able to find alternatives and reassure and provide care at home.

:13:02. > :13:06.Where it is necessary to take someone to a place of safety,

:13:07. > :13:09.bananas are people going into police cells dramatically false. -- the

:13:10. > :13:27.numbers of people going into police cells dramatically falls.

:13:28. > :13:33.It would be wrong not to acknowledge in our area that the police and the

:13:34. > :13:39.health board have embarked on such an initiative but, again, in areas

:13:40. > :13:42.like mine, there is a challenge of being in the countryside in making

:13:43. > :13:46.those services available when needed, and there is a feeling that

:13:47. > :13:55.the need is not met. I agree with that. My own committee suffers from

:13:56. > :14:01.the same problem, widely spread rural communities. Having a nurse in

:14:02. > :14:04.a car with a couple of police officers doesn't work in a big roll

:14:05. > :14:25.area -- big roll -- big rural area. Depending on the geography, there

:14:26. > :14:29.are ways of dealing with this. We need to be much smarter at doing it.

:14:30. > :14:34.I applaud the innovation that has happened around the country, and the

:14:35. > :14:53.whole approach that is used in the crisis care ... It said that these

:14:54. > :14:56.are the principles, give us your plan for working together with the

:14:57. > :15:02.police, mental health services and local authority to come up with

:15:03. > :15:08.plans that work in your locality. It has generated the most amazing

:15:09. > :15:13.degree of coordination around the country, with some real progress

:15:14. > :15:17.being made and although I initiated it, I just have enormous aberration

:15:18. > :15:27.for the people on the ground to went on and did it. It was inspiring. I

:15:28. > :15:34.will bring him back to perhaps where he started, we had an issue in

:15:35. > :15:40.Sutton whether mental health facilities shut down as a result of

:15:41. > :15:45.legionnaires bacterium being discovered, mainly, and people meet

:15:46. > :15:49.to travel to Springfield. As we see more people being treated at home,

:15:50. > :15:55.which is what we want and we see therefore fewer people who while in

:15:56. > :16:00.acute crisis, how does he deal with the fact there are fewer people who

:16:01. > :16:02.need to be treated in specialist centres and therefore there are

:16:03. > :16:09.likely to be a smaller number of them? It is a good point. I think,

:16:10. > :16:15.again, it means we need to think afresh and innovate. The third

:16:16. > :16:22.sector has been very good at coming up with concepts such as crisis

:16:23. > :16:27.houses, where, at a low cost, they camera vied a facility in a locality

:16:28. > :16:32.where someone can go at a moment of crisis, who may not need a formal

:16:33. > :16:37.admission to a hospital, and it may well be a much more therapeutic

:16:38. > :16:42.place to be as they get through their crisis. I was in Hertfordshire

:16:43. > :16:48.recently, visiting the Hertfordshire partnership trust, and they have

:16:49. > :16:55.host families that as an addition to crisis houses, where someone can go

:16:56. > :17:01.if it is appropriate for them to be with a family for a week or whatever

:17:02. > :17:05.is necessary. That may well be what exactly is needed, rather than the

:17:06. > :17:12.cold, clinical environment of a hospital ward. So this sort of

:17:13. > :17:20.innovation is what is needed in order to ensure we have services

:17:21. > :17:25.that patients' needs. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to share with the

:17:26. > :17:34.House a testimony of a constituent who has experienced this. It is

:17:35. > :17:40.quite shocking. It is an anonymous testimony, for obvious reasons, but

:17:41. > :17:46.it is very powerful nonetheless. It reads as follows. I was admitted to

:17:47. > :17:51.accident and emergency at the Norfolk and Norwich Hospital on a

:17:52. > :17:54.Wednesday afternoon, following a suicide attempt. I be gained

:17:55. > :18:00.consciousness the following day, having been transferred to the acute

:18:01. > :18:05.medical unit. It was quickie decided that I needed to be admitted to a

:18:06. > :18:15.mental health ward. I had previously been on a board in Norwich. At this

:18:16. > :18:20.point, I was woozy, suffering from a dangerously low mood and angry that

:18:21. > :18:24.my suicide attempt had failed. I was at grave risk of making another

:18:25. > :18:29.attempt at my life. Throughout Thursday and Friday, efforts were

:18:30. > :18:33.being made to find a mental health bed. This is what happens in the

:18:34. > :18:38.system. My parents were frantically try to find out what was happening

:18:39. > :18:44.as they were desperate for me to be looked after locally. For a time, we

:18:45. > :18:49.were told I would be going back to that ward but the news kept changing

:18:50. > :18:55.between there and a unit in London. London is 100 20 miles away from

:18:56. > :19:04.Norwich, and further away from my constituent... Home. -- 120 miles

:19:05. > :19:08.was the we were told later that they be going to South London. During

:19:09. > :19:14.Friday, I twice walked out of the ward and the hospital, without Mike

:19:15. > :19:21.absence being noticed. I went down to the road near the hospital with

:19:22. > :19:24.the intention of walking in front of a bus or lorry. The main reason I

:19:25. > :19:28.did not go through with it was because I did not want the vehicle

:19:29. > :19:33.to swerve into an oncoming car and cause death or injury to someone

:19:34. > :19:38.else. Meanwhile, my parents resort it to contacting the crisis team as

:19:39. > :19:42.they could not get any information from the bed team. A member of the

:19:43. > :19:45.crisis team took responsibility for finding out what was happening, and

:19:46. > :19:52.he was able to let me know that I was being transferred to South

:19:53. > :19:55.London later that Friday evening. Finally, after more uncertainty, and

:19:56. > :20:02.this bit is really shocking, two men arrived to take me to London. At

:20:03. > :20:06.10pm, feeling suicide or frightened and confused, I got into the back of

:20:07. > :20:14.a private ambulance, which was no more than an austere minibus and was

:20:15. > :20:18.driven from Norwich. During the three-hour drive, I was spoken to

:20:19. > :20:23.just once by one of the two men and felt more like a prisoner being

:20:24. > :20:28.transported than a patient. This is the way our NHS deals with someone

:20:29. > :20:34.who is acutely ill. It is shocking and ought not to be accepted. By

:20:35. > :20:39.1am, completely disoriented, I arrived at the front for the mental

:20:40. > :20:42.health unit in south London. After lots of knocking at the door,

:20:43. > :20:47.someone answered and I was handed over with a quick good luck. I was

:20:48. > :20:51.booked in and shown to my room. I felt isolated and scared. My room

:20:52. > :20:56.was nice but unit felt like a prison. The internal doors were like

:20:57. > :21:01.cell doors and there was a tiny outdoor area fringed by a high fence

:21:02. > :21:06.with spikes on the top. It was a mixed ward, both in terms of sex and

:21:07. > :21:10.illness. People with depression and anxiety were alongside those with

:21:11. > :21:16.psychosis, personality disorders and acute problems. I will make specific

:21:17. > :21:21.reference to that. It is shocking to throw a whole load of people with

:21:22. > :21:27.completely different conditions together. It is probably the most

:21:28. > :21:31.un-therapeutic environment you could possibly imagine. It is containing

:21:32. > :21:37.people, not caring for people. It ought to be a thing of the past. I

:21:38. > :21:41.am grateful to Mike right honourable friend and neighbour for giving way.

:21:42. > :21:47.I had a similar case in King's Lynn, which I cannot go into because

:21:48. > :21:51.it ended in tragedy, with the individual committing suicide,

:21:52. > :21:54.having made an attempt. But he agreed that one of the absolute key

:21:55. > :21:59.aspects of such cases is that there is proper monitoring and supervision

:22:00. > :22:02.of the individual whose life is obviously at risk during a

:22:03. > :22:13.particular episode of this kind? It is absolutely critical that that

:22:14. > :22:16.happens, not only monitoring, but proper treatment. As I will go on to

:22:17. > :22:21.describe in this case, that is not what happened here. He says, the

:22:22. > :22:26.following morning I had a meeting with my named nurse.

:22:27. > :22:29.Extraordinarily, it was the only real conversation I had with him

:22:30. > :22:38.until I was discharged back to Norfolk, ten days later. That is not

:22:39. > :22:41.therapeutic care. It is neglect. I have incidentally asked whether

:22:42. > :22:48.there are any contractual requirements on the private provider

:22:49. > :22:53.who divided that care, in inverted commas, and you received a

:22:54. > :22:56.substantial sum of money for it -- who received. I was told it would be

:22:57. > :23:03.understood there would be therapeutic care, but there was no

:23:04. > :23:07.apparent requirement, in return for such an out of public money being

:23:08. > :23:12.spent on his car. He goes on, the care was unacceptable, it felt as

:23:13. > :23:15.though I was being kept in a holding facility, and my mental health

:23:16. > :23:23.deteriorated, with Mike suicidal thoughts increases -- my suicidal.

:23:24. > :23:33.In stark contrast to Norwich, the staff were told -- in behind a heavy

:23:34. > :23:40.steel door, I rarely had a conversation within in member of

:23:41. > :23:45.staff, my parents were horrified by what they are encountered, both the

:23:46. > :23:48.level of care and my deterioration. They were constantly contacting the

:23:49. > :23:53.Norfolk and Suffolk mental health trusts to try to get me moved back

:23:54. > :23:57.to Norfolk, the stress made them both ill. This is the impact you

:23:58. > :24:00.have on families as well. Thankfully, their persistence paid

:24:01. > :24:04.off and after ten days I was told that I was going to be recalled. I

:24:05. > :24:10.had a brief period of uncertainty, as I didn't know whether I would be

:24:11. > :24:14.going to Helston, King's Lynn or Great Yarmouth. Eventually I was

:24:15. > :24:19.told it would be Helston, and I got into a taxi with a member of staff

:24:20. > :24:23.and was driven from south London to there. When I arrived there and

:24:24. > :24:27.cried, mainly through relief. I was greeted with compassion and

:24:28. > :24:34.understanding by the staff, and, after ten wasted and expensive days,

:24:35. > :24:40.my recovery finally began. That experience, sadly, Madam Deputy

:24:41. > :24:44.Speaker, is repeated day in day out across the NHS. It is a scandal that

:24:45. > :24:49.it continues. One of the things that I will be put to the Minister at the

:24:50. > :24:53.end of this is that I want his commitment to end this practice.

:24:54. > :25:00.Because it is intolerable that it continues in this day and age. But I

:25:01. > :25:07.will come back to that. I also mention,s, the cost. There has been

:25:08. > :25:19.-- Madam Deputy Speaker. There has been an analysis done by I think the

:25:20. > :25:29.confidential enquiries into suicide in patient care. And the

:25:30. > :25:35.understanding they have, looking at 29 providers, is that the cost of

:25:36. > :25:44.out of area placements went up from ?51.4 million to ?65.2 million in

:25:45. > :25:48.2014-15. Now, that is an extraordinary amount of money to

:25:49. > :25:54.spend on an unacceptable practice. And it again demonstrates that with

:25:55. > :25:59.smarter use of the resources available, it should be possible to

:26:00. > :26:06.bring an end to this practice. I mentioned earlier the question of

:26:07. > :26:12.suicide, and the connection between out of area placements and the risk

:26:13. > :26:17.of suicide. And I quote here, worryingly, the National

:26:18. > :26:21.confidential inquiry on suicide and homicide has found that being

:26:22. > :26:25.treated out of area also increases someone's risk of suicide. The

:26:26. > :26:31.pattern is most apparent in England, where suicides bite in patients and

:26:32. > :26:38.patients recently discharged from hospital has fallen, although

:26:39. > :26:42.patients from out of area ward have increased. The annual number of

:26:43. > :26:53.suicides after discharge from non-local unit has increased from 68

:26:54. > :26:57.in 2003-2007, two 109 between 2008 and 2012. Experts have warned that

:26:58. > :27:01.mental health patients are at the highest risk of taking their own

:27:02. > :27:08.lives in the first two weeks after being discharged from hospital. And

:27:09. > :27:13.these figures confirm that. Now, we are talking about a risk of people

:27:14. > :27:18.actually losing their lives, surely we have to see the absolute

:27:19. > :27:25.importance of bringing this practice to an end. I also wanted to refer,

:27:26. > :27:27.Madam Deputy Speaker, to a recent report by the independent

:27:28. > :27:33.mental-health services Alliance. It is called Breaking Down Barriers,

:27:34. > :27:38.Improving Patient Access And Outcomes In Mental Health. It makes

:27:39. > :27:43.the point that the thing that I have been arguing for consistently, the

:27:44. > :27:47.introduction of comprehensive waiting time standards in mental

:27:48. > :27:49.health, so that somebody with a mental health problem has exactly

:27:50. > :27:56.the same right of access to treatment as anyone else, must be a

:27:57. > :28:03.priority. But it also goes on to say, people who end up in and out of

:28:04. > :28:08.area placement, sometimes perhaps a long way away from home, get lost in

:28:09. > :28:14.the system. They almost get forgotten about. They are away from

:28:15. > :28:20.the Commissioners, they are away from the, and they can sometimes

:28:21. > :28:26.languish in these centres for far too long. And that again seems to be

:28:27. > :28:31.completely intolerable. And they make reference also to the problem

:28:32. > :28:39.of delayed discharge. They say, and I quote "we have found that between

:28:40. > :28:44.2013-14, the number of delayed discharge per month for trusts

:28:45. > :28:50.providing mental-health services increased by 22.2%. That indicates

:28:51. > :28:54.that the late discharges are having an increased impact on patients'

:28:55. > :29:00.access to appropriate care." In other words, if beds are clogged up

:29:01. > :29:05.by people who are ready to leave all go home or go to another facility,

:29:06. > :29:08.but can't, because nothing else is arranged for them, then somebody

:29:09. > :29:13.else, at a moment of crisis, cannot get access to a bed and get shunted

:29:14. > :29:18.off, sometimes on the way away from home. A completely unacceptable

:29:19. > :29:24.practice -- a long way away from home. It begs reference to children

:29:25. > :29:26.and young people's mental-health services. The Minister will be

:29:27. > :29:31.particularly responsible about a key concern about children being

:29:32. > :29:36.shunted, often hundreds of miles away from home. And intolerable

:29:37. > :29:40.practice, and I know it has happened in the south-west, there has been a

:29:41. > :29:45.particular shortage of beds for children in the south-west. There

:29:46. > :29:51.was an inquiry undertaken by a team within NHS England, which came up

:29:52. > :30:00.with recommendations for eradicating this problem. And the task force

:30:01. > :30:04.report, Future In Mind,, that we published shortly before the general

:30:05. > :30:09.election, pointed to the absolute need to care for people close to

:30:10. > :30:15.home, to have better prices support, to avoid admissions where possible

:30:16. > :30:18.-- crisis support. But the practice continues, and again it must be a

:30:19. > :30:27.priority for the Minister to bring this practice to an end. One of the

:30:28. > :30:30.things that Future In Mind sought to address is this awful tiering of

:30:31. > :30:38.care within children's mental health services. If you are in Tier four as

:30:39. > :30:46.a child, and you are put into Tier four from Tier three because the

:30:47. > :30:53.judgment is that you need more acute inpatient care, then the financial

:30:54. > :30:56.responsibility for your care is transferred to NHS England. So there

:30:57. > :31:00.is an incentive for local commissioners to push them into the

:31:01. > :31:05.top tier, which is precisely the opposite of what ought to be

:31:06. > :31:09.happening. We ought to be focusing our incentives on preventing

:31:10. > :31:13.deterioration of health, not shunting people into the most acute

:31:14. > :31:17.care, and then too often away from home. Just imagine for a moment what

:31:18. > :31:23.it must be like for parents of perhaps a 14-year-old child who is

:31:24. > :31:27.taken into a unit, 100 or 200 miles away from home, it is really

:31:28. > :31:33.shocking. And it is a practice that this Government hopefully will feel

:31:34. > :31:42.the need to commit to eradicating as quickly as possible. Madam Deputy

:31:43. > :31:49.Speaker, when this issue came to my attention as Minister, I asked

:31:50. > :31:55.officials to provide me with data to find out what was happening around

:31:56. > :32:00.the country. I was confronted I F O why requests by campaigning

:32:01. > :32:03.organisations -- Freedom of information. And news reports of

:32:04. > :32:11.shocking things happening around the system. I had no information to base

:32:12. > :32:17.my own judgment on. And I was told by officials that we didn't collect

:32:18. > :32:22.data on this. So, Government operates in a complete fog. We rely

:32:23. > :32:28.on campaigning organisations are making choir rose under Freedom of

:32:29. > :32:31.Information Act, and I would urge the Minister -- to make enquiries. I

:32:32. > :32:36.urge the Minister to use what powers of persuasion he has not to

:32:37. > :32:40.undermine freedom of information, because there is a process underway

:32:41. > :32:45.at the moment which runs the risk of achieving precisely that will stop

:32:46. > :32:52.its a really important way of holding Government to account. But,

:32:53. > :32:58.I was faced with no information, no data at all, on this practice. So we

:32:59. > :33:04.initiated a process to start the collection of data. We now have data

:33:05. > :33:08.collected. It is still in experimental form. But it is better

:33:09. > :33:13.than nothing. What the data shows is, first of all, extraordinary

:33:14. > :33:18.variation around the country. And this comes back to my point that it

:33:19. > :33:23.is not just about extra money, it is also about practice, good practice,

:33:24. > :33:26.learning from the areas of best practice. What we discover is that

:33:27. > :33:30.there many mental health trusts around the country who have no out

:33:31. > :33:35.of area placement at all. Funded in broadly the same way as other areas,

:33:36. > :33:41.and yet there are over areas there who have a and unacceptable problem

:33:42. > :33:46.-- other areas. The latest data, and there is a three-month delay, I'm

:33:47. > :33:50.afraid, before the data is published. So we are looking at data

:33:51. > :33:58.from the end of August. But at the end of August there were 2198 pupil

:33:59. > :34:03.in-out of area placement is -- people. And that has demonstrated a

:34:04. > :34:10.drift upwards. What we are loved entirely clear on -- we are not

:34:11. > :34:14.entirely clear on whether this is a question of more data or whether

:34:15. > :34:17.this is a worsening of the problem. And I don't want to draw the wrong

:34:18. > :34:21.conclusions from that. But certainly the numbers do not appear to be

:34:22. > :34:28.going down. One particular issue I wanted to raise with the Minister is

:34:29. > :34:33.that the data is incomplete. Because there are a number of private

:34:34. > :34:38.providers who refuse to return data. Now, they are contractually

:34:39. > :34:45.obliged in their contractual dealings with the NHS to return that

:34:46. > :34:49.data. I raised it with officials and with the information centre when I

:34:50. > :34:54.was Minister. But surely this is completely unacceptable. I have no

:34:55. > :34:58.difficulty with a good private provider providing a good quality

:34:59. > :35:03.service, but they absolutely must play by the same rules as everybody

:35:04. > :35:09.else. I thank my honourable friend forgiving way, and to bring you back

:35:10. > :35:12.to the point is making earlier about Freedom of information, is it not

:35:13. > :35:16.right, and in fact there is a case for extending Freedom of

:35:17. > :35:21.information, to insure that private companies that are doing public

:35:22. > :35:24.works, they are actually covered in exactly the same weight by F O why,

:35:25. > :35:29.and I devised the Health Secretary that it applies to many other

:35:30. > :35:32.sectors as well -- exactly the same way as Freedom of information. There

:35:33. > :35:37.should be a level playing field, and there is in that moment. What we

:35:38. > :35:40.have now is an unacceptable situation of incomplete data because

:35:41. > :35:45.some private providers are refusing to play ball. And it leaves one

:35:46. > :35:49.suspicious, because if they are not providing data about how many people

:35:50. > :35:54.are being held, it is impossible then told the system to account. And

:35:55. > :36:01.indeed to hold those private providers to account. So, the

:36:02. > :36:04.Minister needs to provide a way of holding those people to account and

:36:05. > :36:13.insuring that they provide the data that they are obliged to provide.

:36:14. > :36:19.Along with the variation, there is also the fact that there is a

:36:20. > :36:25.horrific number of people who are still being sent a considerable

:36:26. > :36:30.distance away from home. At the end of August, over 500 people, 501

:36:31. > :36:36.people, were sent more than 50 coulomb it is away from home. --

:36:37. > :36:40.kilometres. That surely is intolerable, given what I said about

:36:41. > :36:44.the increased risk of suicide, the fact that it does not provide

:36:45. > :36:49.therapeutic care, the containment of some would even ten days has

:36:50. > :36:53.enormous cost to the public purse -- the containment of somebody. This is

:36:54. > :36:59.the most outrageous misuse, it seems to me, public money. And there are

:37:00. > :37:05.some persistent areas where the problem is at its greatest. In

:37:06. > :37:13.Devon, the Devon partnership NHS Trust, in August had 45 people out

:37:14. > :37:17.of area. Now, the caveat is that we don't know precisely where

:37:18. > :37:24.responsibility lies. Whether it is a commissioning issue, provide issue,

:37:25. > :37:29.but this is their local provider -- eight provide issue. One would

:37:30. > :37:33.expect it to be provided by the local provider. 45 people, let me

:37:34. > :37:38.just finished the point, that means significantly more than one person

:37:39. > :37:45.every day is shunted more than 50 coulomb it is away from.

:37:46. > :37:51.Has any analysis being done and whether the families in these cases

:37:52. > :37:57.have been contacted? Surely it is incredibly important that one of the

:37:58. > :38:03.strands of support for these patients is through their family.

:38:04. > :38:12.These cases involved families being informed and having been given

:38:13. > :38:15.permission for them being moved? We don't know that. The information is

:38:16. > :38:21.very basic. It is a crucial area and I imagine that, often,

:38:22. > :38:27.communications do fall down when these urgent referrals to another

:38:28. > :38:30.location take place. I raise another issue is about families, and that is

:38:31. > :38:37.the fact that, imagine if you are having to visit a loved one 50: That

:38:38. > :38:43.is, 100, it is away from home, it is the cost involved. We in the chamber

:38:44. > :38:46.can afford to visit a loved one and any of us could be in that

:38:47. > :38:49.situation. But there are many who cannot afford to do that. That is

:38:50. > :38:59.another reason why that is intolerable. I thank the honourable

:39:00. > :39:03.gentleman for giving way. It is interesting to hear his statistics

:39:04. > :39:13.around my area of Devon. One of the issues is the point he raised, the

:39:14. > :39:23.king indications -- the king communications. The thing is, you

:39:24. > :39:28.are presented with a choice of, this is what treatment your loved one

:39:29. > :39:34.needs, this is where they need to be. It leaves the family feeling

:39:35. > :39:38.desperate and guilty that they cannot do anything to help their

:39:39. > :39:43.loved one. They feel powerless to do anything about it. There is a little

:39:44. > :39:49.boy called Josh Wills. This is a related issue of a boy with autism,

:39:50. > :39:56.from Cornwall. He was placed in a specialist unit in Birmingham.

:39:57. > :40:02.Imagine the journey that his parents had to do every week from Cornwall

:40:03. > :40:09.to Birmingham. He was there for over three years. I had to intervene

:40:10. > :40:13.personally as minister to get the ministers to London to try and

:40:14. > :40:17.sorted out. He is now back in Cornwall but it has taken too long

:40:18. > :40:23.for that happen. -- to get the commissioners to London. I should

:40:24. > :40:30.also mention in terms of the areas where the problem is at its worst,

:40:31. > :40:36.Lancashire had 30 cases in August. Again, one a day. Kent and Medway

:40:37. > :40:47.NHS and social care partnership trust, 30. West London mental health

:40:48. > :40:50.NHS Trust, 25. Birmingham and Solihull, 25. Again, there is the

:40:51. > :40:55.caveat that we don't know where responsibility lies. But we should

:40:56. > :41:03.surely accept that the practice is not acceptable and has to be brought

:41:04. > :41:08.to an end. I should also say that the data focuses on nonspecialist

:41:09. > :41:12.beds. It is fair to say that there will be cases, just as with a

:41:13. > :41:16.physical health problem, where a patient needs a specialist input and

:41:17. > :41:24.where a referral to a specialist hospital, such as Papworth, may be

:41:25. > :41:31.appropriate. These are nonspecialist beds where care should be provided,

:41:32. > :41:41.surely, closer to home. We got this data and it allows us to hold the

:41:42. > :41:55.system to account. Along with establishing this dataset, we also

:41:56. > :42:02.got Monitor and the TDA to do "deep dives" into organisations and those

:42:03. > :42:05.with a bad record with out of area placements to try and understand

:42:06. > :42:11.better what was going on. When they reported back to me as a result of

:42:12. > :42:16.their work, their conclusion was, this was a problem that ought to be

:42:17. > :42:21.solvable. This was the important point for the Minister. It is not

:42:22. > :42:27.something that we would all love to do but it is not possible, it is

:42:28. > :42:33.achievable, but it requires drive, ambition and determination to see it

:42:34. > :42:40.through. If I may, as an ex-minister, just offer a bit of

:42:41. > :42:51.advice to the current incumbent in this position, in my view, it is no

:42:52. > :42:56.good just saying we need to make incremental improvements, we need to

:42:57. > :42:58.make sure that we say that this is not acceptable. Someone in a mental

:42:59. > :43:05.health crisis who does not require specialist care should not be sent

:43:06. > :43:18.away from home. At all. It is not a difficult issue, it should become

:43:19. > :43:23.what the NHS knows as and "never event" how can we tolerate it. The

:43:24. > :43:29.Minister has two set the objective of ending the practice. I understand

:43:30. > :43:34.that it takes time. My view was that I wanted to see it end by the end of

:43:35. > :43:39.this calendar year. This was back in March. I recognise that is now not

:43:40. > :43:44.achievable. But I set the objective of ending it within a year, within

:43:45. > :43:49.12 months. It is achievable provided there is drive, ambition and purpose

:43:50. > :43:57.to make it happen. May I raise a related issue? That is of money. I

:43:58. > :44:00.have made very clear that I totally sign up to the importance of trying

:44:01. > :44:05.to do things differently, to make better use of resources to achieve

:44:06. > :44:10.good results for people. But there is also an issue of the investment

:44:11. > :44:19.needed in mental health. In the March Budget, Nick Clegg... I do

:44:20. > :44:22.apologise, Madame Debord is bigger, the right honourable member for

:44:23. > :44:29.Sheffield Hallam, secured in negotiation as part of the run-up to

:44:30. > :44:36.the Budget, money for the five-year period over this Parliament in extra

:44:37. > :44:42.investment in children and young people's mental health services. In

:44:43. > :44:49.year one, the amount that ought to have arrived for those services on

:44:50. > :44:56.an equitable division of 1.25 billion would have been 250 million.

:44:57. > :45:02.In fact, the amount made available was 143 million. A shortfall. We

:45:03. > :45:05.were told that this was because we were partway through the year, we

:45:06. > :45:11.had had the general election, we needed to make sure that the money

:45:12. > :45:18.was spent effectively. I sort of accepted that as an explanation but

:45:19. > :45:22.I have since heard from reliable sources that, actually, there was a

:45:23. > :45:28.bit of a land grab going on and, in order to pop the finances of acute

:45:29. > :45:34.hospitals, perhaps, that money was taken away from children and young

:45:35. > :45:37.people's mental health services. I urge the Government to ensure that

:45:38. > :45:44.we make good the shortfall in future years. The Minister, really

:45:45. > :45:51.helpfully, on the 13th of October, reconfirmed that the full ?1.25

:45:52. > :45:54.billion would be spending this Parliament, and I call on him to

:45:55. > :45:58.repeat that commitment today. It is completely critical that an amount

:45:59. > :46:05.of money in extra investment confirmed in the Budget in March is

:46:06. > :46:08.stuck to. It is a matter of good faith by the Government and I would

:46:09. > :46:14.like to hear that confirmation. I also think we need to make good the

:46:15. > :46:19.shortfall in year two. Just as with the rest of the NHS, frontloading of

:46:20. > :46:26.this money to invest in change is the best way to make the best use of

:46:27. > :46:31.the resources available. So, Madam Deputy is bigger, I moved

:46:32. > :46:35.towards the end of my rather elongated contribution, due to the

:46:36. > :46:44.additional time we have available to us. I wanted to just end by asking

:46:45. > :46:48.specific questions of the Minister, and I would be really grateful if he

:46:49. > :46:54.could address each of them directly this afternoon. If on any of them he

:46:55. > :46:57.is unable to give a direct answer this afternoon, I would be really

:46:58. > :47:04.grateful if he could write to me as soon as possible to respond directly

:47:05. > :47:10.to these questions. The first question is the issue of principle.

:47:11. > :47:15.Does he accept that this practice is unacceptable? I am not talking about

:47:16. > :47:19.specialist beds, I am talking about nonspecialist beds where someone in

:47:20. > :47:22.a mound of acute mental health crisis is shunted around the

:47:23. > :47:28.country, a practice that would never be tolerated in physical health.

:47:29. > :47:36.Will he commit to ending this practice completely within 12

:47:37. > :47:41.months, to make it a never event? Will he personally drive this

:47:42. > :47:47.change, because, from experience, this is what is necessary. It needs

:47:48. > :47:54.to be on the case constantly to ensure that the system responds to

:47:55. > :48:01.this moral imperative. Will he ensure that all providers provide

:48:02. > :48:07.the data that they are obliged by their contracts to provide to the

:48:08. > :48:16.information centre? Anything short of that is, again, completely

:48:17. > :48:23.unacceptable. Next, the data is still in an experimental form. The

:48:24. > :48:32.information centre describes the fact that... In the notes to the

:48:33. > :48:39.data, it says that it provides a reference point for more accurate

:48:40. > :48:42.measurement in the future. That means that this has two of old will

:48:43. > :48:47.stop there has to be an air pollution to get to the point -- and

:48:48. > :48:52.evolution to get to the point where there is more accurate data to make

:48:53. > :48:55.sure that providers and commissioners can be held to

:48:56. > :49:02.account. Can he ensure that the experiment data is turned into final

:49:03. > :49:08.four data that we can all rely on -- final form data that we can all be

:49:09. > :49:20.liable? Will he give us is absolute commitment to ensuring that ?1.25

:49:21. > :49:22.billion is spent in additional investment in children and young

:49:23. > :49:31.people's mental health in this Department? Will he also commit to

:49:32. > :49:39.sticking with the vision that we published in October this last

:49:40. > :49:43.year, to introduce waiting times standards. I did that work that led

:49:44. > :49:46.to that document in collaboration with the Secretary of State, who was

:49:47. > :49:53.incredibly helpful in supporting me getting that published. But the

:49:54. > :49:58.vision was very clear. It recognised that, until we have come prances

:49:59. > :50:03.waiting time standards in mental health, as exist within physical

:50:04. > :50:11.health, we will not get equality of access to treatment? It seems

:50:12. > :50:15.essential that in a publicly funded service that every person must have

:50:16. > :50:21.the same right to get treatment on a timely basis, evidence -based

:50:22. > :50:26.treatment, as anyone else. As indicated already, will he write to

:50:27. > :50:30.confirm any specific point that he heals unable to deal with this

:50:31. > :50:37.afternoon? Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker.

:50:38. > :50:40.Thank you. We have been very fortunate this afternoon in having

:50:41. > :50:46.rather longer than we normally get in an adjournment abate, which has

:50:47. > :50:53.allowed the right honourable gentleman to be able to talk at

:50:54. > :50:57.greater length about some of the issues affecting the historic

:50:58. > :51:02.imbalance between mental and physical health, with particular

:51:03. > :51:06.relationship to the out of area mental health placements. I am

:51:07. > :51:12.delighted, therefore, to congratulate him on securing the

:51:13. > :51:20.debate and to be able to respond to it. Can I thank the opportunity that

:51:21. > :51:27.has been taken by a number of honourable and right honourable

:51:28. > :51:37.Jedward to take part? -- the right honourable gentleman.

:51:38. > :51:44.I see in his place the right or member for... Hails Owen. You are

:51:45. > :51:51.the whip, Madam. You are always there. Which we welcome and

:51:52. > :51:57.acknowledge. My honourable friend, the member for hails Owen, has

:51:58. > :52:00.dropped in as part of his responsible it is in the House was

:52:01. > :52:04.the House will stop I welcome that as well. I welcome my honourable

:52:05. > :52:09.friend the whip for her attendance on the bench.

:52:10. > :52:16.Before I come to respond in more detail, I will make some general

:52:17. > :52:18.remarks. The honourable gentleman made reference at the beginning to

:52:19. > :52:22.the long-standing nature of some of these problems. These issues have

:52:23. > :52:28.not arisen in the past six months. They have been there for some time.

:52:29. > :52:31.Government in, government out. The coalition government made huge

:52:32. > :52:35.strides in recognising the importance of mental health and

:52:36. > :52:43.driving forward some of the changes that need to be made.

:52:44. > :52:50.Part of my responsibility is to pick up on that and build on it. If I

:52:51. > :52:57.could just make reference to the honourable gentleman, his cheek

:52:58. > :53:01.achievements included the expansion of psychological therapies, the

:53:02. > :53:04.reduction of use in police cells, introducing the first access and

:53:05. > :53:10.waiting time standards and piloting that sense that there has to be

:53:11. > :53:15.parity of esteem and that is absolutely, those achievements have

:53:16. > :53:20.underpinned what I come in to find in the Department. The intractable

:53:21. > :53:25.nature of some of the problems has been graphically illustrated by its

:53:26. > :53:30.passionate expression today of some of the things he was not able to do

:53:31. > :53:40.during his time as Minister and I find his second baseline for what I

:53:41. > :53:48.am hoping to do. The bar has been set quite high. As he mentioned, as

:53:49. > :53:56.others have mentioned, I think what has puzzled me most is the

:53:57. > :53:59.variability of practice. How it is that in two areas, often

:54:00. > :54:04.side-by-side with the same resources, there is in one a set of

:54:05. > :54:08.procedures in place which ensured that good treatment is provided and

:54:09. > :54:14.in another that that is not the case. It is not always about

:54:15. > :54:17.resources. It's about management, leadership and I have been puzzled

:54:18. > :54:23.as to why there is so much of this around the place. Secondly, a father

:54:24. > :54:28.puzzle which is very pertinent to what we will be talking about

:54:29. > :54:33.today, again the honourable gentleman the perverse incentives in

:54:34. > :54:37.the system. The fact that because treatment costs are split between

:54:38. > :54:42.the local authorities and NHS, it seems to suit people's budgets to

:54:43. > :54:48.decide treatment based not on what is best for the patient but what is

:54:49. > :54:54.best for the budget. When you are dealing with people and the

:54:55. > :54:58.honourable gentleman's description from his letter of his constituent

:54:59. > :55:03.which I know about because I responded to him this week, it

:55:04. > :55:08.illustrates what the impact is on the individual of decisions that

:55:09. > :55:16.people are making for perverse incentive reasons, four budget, if

:55:17. > :55:19.perhaps that was one of the reasons and IM interested in why there is

:55:20. > :55:25.such variability between areas, areas that have few out of area

:55:26. > :55:31.places and others that do not. Let me come onto this and put one or two

:55:32. > :55:36.things on the record before I deal with all the questions because I

:55:37. > :55:40.hope to be able to do so. The government's commitment is clear. We

:55:41. > :55:46.have given the NHS more money than ever before for mental health with

:55:47. > :55:51.an increase of ?11.4 billion. We have made it clear that local

:55:52. > :55:55.services must follow our lead by increasing the amount they spent on

:55:56. > :55:59.mental health and making sure beds are always available. We announced

:56:00. > :56:04.an additional ?600 million for mental health over the next five

:56:05. > :56:14.years for increasing psychological therapies, crisis care and perinatal

:56:15. > :56:18.health. In perinatal mental health services, I want to ensure that

:56:19. > :56:22.women are able to access the right care at the right time and close to

:56:23. > :56:26.home. I know that the provision of specialist Perrin until then to

:56:27. > :56:31.health services varies. Some women have access to excellent care and

:56:32. > :56:45.support while there are serious gaps in other areas. Women suffering the

:56:46. > :56:52.most severe perinatal mental health promises need the most important

:56:53. > :56:59.health care and services. Nice estimates there is a UK shortfall

:57:00. > :57:03.between 60 to 80 baby and mother unit beds. That's why we announced

:57:04. > :57:09.the government will invest an additional ?75 million over the next

:57:10. > :57:12.five years, ?50 million per year to support women with mental health in

:57:13. > :57:23.the perinatal period. -- ?15 million. The honourable gentleman's

:57:24. > :57:29.work has made that base and I give him as much as she rents as I can do

:57:30. > :57:33.in the areas where he set the work in progress, that will continue. In

:57:34. > :57:37.places where I think the work is going slowly, it will be challenged.

:57:38. > :57:41.In places where he was not able to make the progress he wanted to make,

:57:42. > :57:48.I set myself the challenge to do just that. I don't have to worry an

:57:49. > :57:51.awful lot about Freedom of information requests because I get

:57:52. > :57:58.the questions from him and a number of other friends and colleagues in

:57:59. > :58:03.the house who have grasped how important this is. Coming to this

:58:04. > :58:09.particular issue, the source of the debate, I also appreciate the work

:58:10. > :58:14.the honourable gentleman put in train earlier this year with NHS

:58:15. > :58:17.England and mental health provider organisations to understand the

:58:18. > :58:22.pressures that lead to people being sent away from home for treatment

:58:23. > :58:25.which should be available locally. This has helped provide a picture of

:58:26. > :58:30.the scale of the problem and raise its profile. We know the principle

:58:31. > :58:34.should always be care close to home in the least restrictive setting. It

:58:35. > :58:39.is not acceptable for people to be troubling for miles when they are

:58:40. > :58:42.acutely unwell. Going back again to that case that the honourable

:58:43. > :58:48.gentleman raised which I know about having dealt with this week, I also

:58:49. > :58:51.agree with him that some of the attitudes expressed by some of those

:58:52. > :58:57.responsible for people's care are not good enough. It cannot be

:58:58. > :59:02.acceptable and cannot have been acceptable that we seem to have

:59:03. > :59:06.listened a bit too little to those that are in care or have been cared

:59:07. > :59:12.for when they have made complaints about treatment. I am well aware

:59:13. > :59:15.because I occasionally chased on Twitter about this and I say I am

:59:16. > :59:20.looking carefully at how I can deal with this better, sometimes people

:59:21. > :59:25.they feel they have not been listened to and we saw an example in

:59:26. > :59:30.his constituent's letter that this might be more common than we think.

:59:31. > :59:35.I want to ensured the inspection and regulation regime really picks

:59:36. > :59:38.things up. Sometimes there will be differences of opinion and there

:59:39. > :59:44.will be things that need to be clarified, but I do worry about the

:59:45. > :59:49.attitudes that are sometimes expressed and I want to make sure

:59:50. > :59:54.that the department has really got hold of ensuring that those sort of

:59:55. > :00:01.complaints are picked up on wherever possible it has really been borrowed

:00:02. > :00:06.into to find out what went on. -- borrowed. One of the things

:00:07. > :00:12.highlighted in my constituent's case was the fact he was transported late

:00:13. > :00:17.at night, arriving at 1am and in another case of someone else from

:00:18. > :00:21.Norfolk in the same unit, that same week, who was collected at 1am from

:00:22. > :00:26.the unit to be brought back to Norfolk. This treats people like

:00:27. > :00:30.cattle, not human beings and I wonder whether he would be prepared

:00:31. > :00:35.to highlight to the Care Quality Commission that they ought to be

:00:36. > :00:40.investigated and exploring the transporting of people because that

:00:41. > :00:44.experience in a minibus effectively with someone who does not talk to

:00:45. > :00:51.them for three hours, arriving late at night is outrageous. He is right.

:00:52. > :00:57.Of course it is and I share with him the frustration he must have had. I

:00:58. > :01:01.write a lot of letters to colleagues who expressed concerns and have to

:01:02. > :01:04.signpost them to the other organisations now in the health

:01:05. > :01:11.sector who have responsibility particular decisions because quite

:01:12. > :01:15.rightly, local decisions ought to be local and trusts need to be

:01:16. > :01:19.accountable for what they are doing and occasionally I have to tell him

:01:20. > :01:24.it is frustrating when I feel I cannot pick up the phone and make my

:01:25. > :01:27.own enquiry, but we cannot run a system in which ministers

:01:28. > :01:32.arbitrarily pick up cases because they are the ones we know about.

:01:33. > :01:38.There has to be a structured system but I am looking at ways in which

:01:39. > :01:42.when particular things come tonight, I can use the authority of the

:01:43. > :01:49.department to make sure something has been really got into, even if it

:01:50. > :01:52.is somebody else's responsibility. That we in this house remain

:01:53. > :01:57.accountable for things and make sure that those statutory groups have a

:01:58. > :02:06.grip on something. I will be keen to do that. Would he agrees there is

:02:07. > :02:09.something fundamentally unsatisfactory and wrong about

:02:10. > :02:15.moving someone late at night unless you absolutely have to for medical

:02:16. > :02:24.and clinical reasons? Yes. It seems very puzzling that it should be a

:02:25. > :02:28.regular practice, if it is. It should not be the case. Of course

:02:29. > :02:33.there were all sorts of different pressures on the system, again to

:02:34. > :02:37.say it should never happen would not be appropriate, but in principle,

:02:38. > :02:42.moving people who are in a state of anxiety should be done with maximum

:02:43. > :02:47.care at the time which is of greatest benefit to them and their

:02:48. > :02:52.health needs, so my honourable friend is right. Let me return to

:02:53. > :02:59.prepared remarks if I may. It is not acceptable for people for travelling

:03:00. > :03:03.miles when they are on well, it is not acceptable for staff phoning

:03:04. > :03:09.around finding a bed for their patients and can I make reference

:03:10. > :03:13.again to social media's impact. I picked up a Twitter a couple of

:03:14. > :03:19.weeks ago from a frustrated Doctor who I hope will pick up on this

:03:20. > :03:24.debate, he said that there was no bed available for a woman anywhere

:03:25. > :03:32.in England a particular day. Clearly, when I got the tweet and

:03:33. > :03:37.the honourable lady for Liverpool way victory raised it with me, we

:03:38. > :03:41.made enquiries and found out it was not technically true. There were

:03:42. > :03:46.beds available to which the response came back, Minister, you may be

:03:47. > :03:50.technically correct but it is very difficult to find them. From my

:03:51. > :03:56.enquiries, that seems to be right, so we need to find a better system

:03:57. > :04:01.of identifying beds available because that is part of the problem.

:04:02. > :04:06.We should not have people spending time looking for things and I have

:04:07. > :04:11.an idea for that, but I wanted to say to that particular clinician, I

:04:12. > :04:16.did not think what he said was technically true but I do

:04:17. > :04:21.acknowledge for those in the business of finding beds, it should

:04:22. > :04:27.not be as difficult as it is. We know they need to place people out

:04:28. > :04:30.of area, away from home, family and friends is a warning sign of a

:04:31. > :04:34.mental health system under pressure and we know nobody wants to spend

:04:35. > :04:40.scarce resource on sending people out of area. We can't look at

:04:41. > :04:47.treatment in isolation. They are part of the pathway as a whole. I

:04:48. > :04:50.welcome the report to review the provision of acute inpatient

:04:51. > :04:53.psychiatric care for adults and I'm looking forward to his final report

:04:54. > :05:00.and recommendations early in the New Year. The interim report highlighted

:05:01. > :05:05.the situation is more complex as I'm sure the honourable gentleman knows

:05:06. > :05:09.that being about a shortage of beds. While there has been a

:05:10. > :05:14.reduction in psychiatric beds, the report suggests thereafter enough

:05:15. > :05:18.beds if improvements are made to other parts of the system and

:05:19. > :05:26.integrated community-based systems were commissioned. The interim

:05:27. > :05:30.report also highlighted that the so-called bed crisis or admission

:05:31. > :05:33.crisis is a problem with discharges and alternatives to admission and

:05:34. > :05:37.can only be addressed through changes in services and the

:05:38. > :05:41.management of the whole system. As the honourable gentleman points out,

:05:42. > :05:45.this can be done as has been demonstrated by a number of local

:05:46. > :05:52.areas. In Sheffield they have entirely eliminated adult acute out

:05:53. > :06:03.of area treatments and brought occupancy down by investing in the

:06:04. > :06:08.system. Norfolk and Suffolk NHS Foundation Trust have begun to

:06:09. > :06:10.reduce a historic problem it had to reduce out of area treatments

:06:11. > :06:20.through a combination of investing in more acute adult beds and working

:06:21. > :06:23.with commissioners. I understand the independent mental health task force

:06:24. > :06:30.has spent some time discussing these issues. I hope the report will be an

:06:31. > :06:32.important driver for improving mental health services and address

:06:33. > :06:49.many of the issue raised by the interim report. Could he confirm the

:06:50. > :06:54.likely date of the publication of the task force report? I think he

:06:55. > :06:59.said New Year but what is the best estimate of that and secondly, I

:07:00. > :07:02.would like to acknowledge the Norfolk and Suffolk trust has made

:07:03. > :07:06.real progress. The numbers of people being sent out of area has come down

:07:07. > :07:11.significantly and that ought to be recognised.

:07:12. > :07:17.I'm grateful for what the gentleman said about his trust. My

:07:18. > :07:20.understanding is that the task force report will come through very

:07:21. > :07:25.shortly, I don't know if it will be this month or the start of next

:07:26. > :07:29.month, but it is imminent. The Secretary of State for Health, and I

:07:30. > :07:34.appreciate your kind remarks made about him, has already agreed an

:07:35. > :07:38.action plan to tackle out of area treatments for adult acute patient

:07:39. > :07:41.careful stop where out of area treatments are a problem, local

:07:42. > :07:48.areas will be asked to put in place clear action plans demonstrating how

:07:49. > :07:53.can introduce area treatments in the best interests of patients by 2017.

:07:54. > :07:57.Here I come to one of the challenges. Building on this, I

:07:58. > :08:01.intend to go further and put in place a national ambition to address

:08:02. > :08:05.out of area treatments. I will do this in consideration of the crisp

:08:06. > :08:13.commission and the task force report and communicate details by March

:08:14. > :08:19.next year. What I want to do is wait for what Lord crisp says, as well as

:08:20. > :08:23.the task force, and proceed as he suggests with what the ambition

:08:24. > :08:29.should be, complete elimination? Should provide much tighter

:08:30. > :08:32.variation? I want to get the reports before I set the ambition, but I

:08:33. > :08:36.will set the ambition, the targets, and I will come back to the house

:08:37. > :08:43.before the end of March next year to communicate that. I hope that is a

:08:44. > :08:46.help. Can I also commend The Right Honourable gentleman for recognising

:08:47. > :08:50.the need to improvement of health crisis care, and for launching the

:08:51. > :08:56.mental health crisis care concordant which we discussed in the course of

:08:57. > :09:03.the debate. Again, it was an opportunity to talk about practice,

:09:04. > :09:07.and the quality of Street try arch and different areas. I saw the work

:09:08. > :09:11.done in Bradford where they have their mental health practitioner in

:09:12. > :09:17.the control room, as opposed to being on the street, and various

:09:18. > :09:22.different things that are done. The galvanising of local groups working

:09:23. > :09:30.together, because they are given the responsibility of doing the job, has

:09:31. > :09:33.been absolutely vital. I think the way in which we are also dealing

:09:34. > :09:38.with reducing the numbers of those detained in police cells, as has

:09:39. > :09:43.been made reference to, is a clear example of how that process is

:09:44. > :09:48.working. Turning to children and young people, the government is

:09:49. > :09:53.equally committed to reducing out a very mental health treatment for

:09:54. > :09:58.children and young people. In patient admission is a relatively

:09:59. > :10:03.rare event, but at anyone time there are approximately 1300 young

:10:04. > :10:08.children and young people in England in adolescent services. These issues

:10:09. > :10:12.are usually subdivided into different specialties, such as

:10:13. > :10:17.eating disorder units, low security units, meaning it is challenging to

:10:18. > :10:19.provide compact scare in areas. On some occasions some children and

:10:20. > :10:24.young people might have to be referred for treatment away from

:10:25. > :10:28.their homes. Is that in the best interests in their care? We are

:10:29. > :10:33.committed to ensuring this is as rare and event as possible, and much

:10:34. > :10:40.progress has already been made. Norman Lamb. In the recommendations

:10:41. > :10:44.from the task force that NHS England established to look at tier four

:10:45. > :10:48.services and build numbers of beds required across the system, the

:10:49. > :10:52.variability around the country, one of the things they come up with was

:10:53. > :10:56.that itch it always be contained within a region, in other words, in

:10:57. > :11:02.the south-west, the child should never go out of the south-west to

:11:03. > :11:08.where ever it was, I think it was Berkshire. Is he sticking to that?

:11:09. > :11:13.Are we ensuring that is the objective and we are monitoring and

:11:14. > :11:17.meeting that? As best as possible, absolutely yes. There will be

:11:18. > :11:22.occasions when very specialised treatment has to be given, and on

:11:23. > :11:26.occasions that will be outside area, at a park that, absolutely.

:11:27. > :11:36.Appropriate care, appropriate to where people post is to where they

:11:37. > :11:42.are, as much as possible. -- close to where people are. Some people

:11:43. > :11:45.have had to travel long distances to access a bed, and there was the need

:11:46. > :11:50.for greater distribution around the country. There was an immediate

:11:51. > :11:55.response to this, 7 million of additional funding, taking the total

:11:56. > :12:00.number of beds to 1440, its highest ever number. NHS England has

:12:01. > :12:04.introduced new protocols for the referrals of this charge, and a new

:12:05. > :12:10.live bed monitoring system to make best use of capacity. It is that

:12:11. > :12:16.monitoring capacity, does that have relevance to the adult acute beds,

:12:17. > :12:24.and it could make the job of my coalition friend the better. We want

:12:25. > :12:27.to build on the process further. In January this year NHS England

:12:28. > :12:33.announced a comprehensive review of the book or meant and commissioning

:12:34. > :12:37.of patient beds, the aim of which is to establish long-term requirements

:12:38. > :12:39.for inpatient services and ensure quality sustainable services are in

:12:40. > :12:46.the right place based on population needs. It's enough simply to provide

:12:47. > :12:49.more beds to make sure communities are sustainable, we need to make

:12:50. > :12:53.sure community support is offered to children and young people. That's at

:12:54. > :12:57.the heart of the vision set out for the future in mind. Determined to

:12:58. > :13:00.make sure children and young people have access to the right support,

:13:01. > :13:04.the right service, at the right time, and is close to home as

:13:05. > :13:08.possible. Key to achieving this vision are the local area

:13:09. > :13:13.transformation plans now being put in place. CCGs have been asked to

:13:14. > :13:21.work with NHS commissioning teams in the creation of these plans. Two

:13:22. > :13:31.final points, and then a conclusion. Firstly, on data... I have also been

:13:32. > :13:37.interested in what data is available and what isn't. I answered a number

:13:38. > :13:41.of questions saying the data is not collected centrally. I looked at

:13:42. > :13:46.every question closely, are there occasions when we should be doing

:13:47. > :13:53.more with the data? There is still a lot to do. Much work, but I entirely

:13:54. > :13:56.take his point. On data, we are looking at the limitations. He was

:13:57. > :14:02.right to talk about the problems in getting the data set right. But I'm

:14:03. > :14:06.onto that, and I think it's essential, and I will take the

:14:07. > :14:12.challenge of driving and moving data. On providers, the

:14:13. > :14:18.responsibility seems to come down to CCGs. It's unacceptable that private

:14:19. > :14:24.providers do not submit data. More have started submitting since the

:14:25. > :14:31.summer, but it's still not good enough. If we need this information,

:14:32. > :14:35.we need it. I'm going to look at whether CCGs are using the

:14:36. > :14:40.contractual levers, and if not, why not? And if not, we can apply

:14:41. > :14:46.sanctions. That information is necessary and I'm glad to do it,

:14:47. > :14:56.he's absolutely right. In relation to his questions and points, the

:14:57. > :15:00.principal and determination, I will come back to you by March next year

:15:01. > :15:04.to set up a national ambition. Do I commit to ending the practice

:15:05. > :15:07.completely? I do not know yet because I want to get the result of

:15:08. > :15:12.the commission. That it should be reduced to a minimum is right, and I

:15:13. > :15:15.want to know if it's possible to eliminate it, or whether that will

:15:16. > :15:21.not do the job that will not do the job that's what the commission has

:15:22. > :15:29.to say. I drive these changes. All providers will provide data. Will I

:15:30. > :15:35.commit to ?1.25 billion? Yes I will. I have said it enough times in

:15:36. > :15:38.enough places to make it a very difficult government commitment to

:15:39. > :15:42.slip away from. It's over the course of the next five years and I'm happy

:15:43. > :15:48.to repeat that. I will take one more final intervention. I'm very

:15:49. > :15:57.grateful for his patience in allowing me to intervene again. I'm

:15:58. > :16:02.conscious that there is a risk that the shortfall in the first year is

:16:03. > :16:07.made up in 1920 something like that, it seems that the principle of

:16:08. > :16:11.frontloading to invest in change, it would be incredibly helpful if we

:16:12. > :16:16.could get the commitment to make good the shortfall in 16 or 17.

:16:17. > :16:21.Could he commit to doing that? There are things I can do, and things it's

:16:22. > :16:28.unwise to take a flyer on when standing at the dispatch box. I will

:16:29. > :16:33.try. We need to make sure the money is used sensibly. There are a lot of

:16:34. > :16:37.pressures on the system. I'm trying to be as bold as I can without being

:16:38. > :16:42.foolishly bold, and saying things for the sake of it. I understand the

:16:43. > :16:46.importance of the 1.25 billion, I've spoken about it a great deal and

:16:47. > :16:49.want to see it used. I'm not responsible entirely for the

:16:50. > :16:54.timescale but I understand your point, and I understand it will come

:16:55. > :16:58.up with the opposition debate that we will have next year. Maximum

:16:59. > :17:02.waiting times, I need to talk to the Secretary of State about that and

:17:03. > :17:05.see if we can go further and include that in a comprehensive letter to

:17:06. > :17:10.him. I hope that has been helpful for today. I'm delighted we had

:17:11. > :17:14.extra time to cover the ground. I'm pleased to take up the challenge to

:17:15. > :17:18.do some things that couldn't be done in the past few years, and I will do

:17:19. > :17:20.my best and live up to the expectations of the house as

:17:21. > :17:31.expressed by a number of members today. The question is that this

:17:32. > :17:48.house do now adjourn... The ayes have it. Order.

:17:49. > :17:54.That's the end of the day in the House of Commons. We will now go

:17:55. > :17:59.live to the House of Lords. You can watch recorded coverage of all

:18:00. > :18:07.today's business at the Lord's after the daily politics later tonight.

:18:08. > :18:12.The success of this review will be determined by whether that gap can

:18:13. > :18:18.be narrowed, and in that context I welcome the outcome of last night's

:18:19. > :18:22.debate in the other place, and the decision to authorise the extension

:18:23. > :18:27.of military operations against IS to include its heartland in East Syria.

:18:28. > :18:34.A decision which I believe was morally, legally and strategically

:18:35. > :18:38.the right one to take. My Lords, it's easy to say that it's a great

:18:39. > :18:39.honour to be joining