07/12/2015

:00:00. > :00:00.point of order from the honourable gentleman. Statement, the Sdcretary

:00:00. > :00:11.of State, for the environment and rural affairs. With permisshon, Mr

:00:12. > :00:15.Speaker, I would like to make a statement about the impact of

:00:16. > :00:21.flooding in the North of England. As the House will know, this wdekend

:00:22. > :00:27.has brought some enormously difficult and extreme weathdr

:00:28. > :00:30.conditions. I would like to begin by expressing my deepest sympathy for

:00:31. > :00:34.all of those who have been `ffected. I would also like to commend the

:00:35. > :00:38.emergency responders, volunteers, and the environment agency who have

:00:39. > :00:44.been working tirelessly throughout the weekend, often in horrific

:00:45. > :00:50.conditions. People have comd from all over the country as far as South

:00:51. > :00:53.Wales, Lincolnshire, and other sectors to build. I'm sure the House

:00:54. > :00:57.will join with me in paying tribute to their work. And the generous

:00:58. > :01:02.community spirit of those who have been offering food, transport and

:01:03. > :01:07.beds to neighbours. Over thd course of Friday, the visa before, it

:01:08. > :01:12.became clear that the storm would bring an exceptionally high rainfall

:01:13. > :01:20.across the UK -- force of the summer. People were mobilisdd,

:01:21. > :01:23.leaving temporary defenses `nd pumps to northwest England through Friday.

:01:24. > :01:27.On Saturday morning it becale clear which counties would be imp`cted and

:01:28. > :01:33.that we would see very high levels of rainfall that evening. Therefore

:01:34. > :01:39.the government mobilised a full national emergency response copy at

:01:40. > :01:41.midday on Saturday, I held ` cross departmental meeting to assdss the

:01:42. > :01:46.impact shortly followed by the mobilised nation that 200 mhlitary

:01:47. > :01:50.personnel and supporting assets including making available `n

:01:51. > :01:57.helicopter. Local commanders were able to call upon more than 50 by

:01:58. > :02:01.Bob -- high-volume pumps, as well as tactical advisors and rescudrs from

:02:02. > :02:06.across the UK. Adding to ovdr 2 0 emergency responders alreadx on the

:02:07. > :02:09.ground. My honourable friend the floods Minister, travelled to

:02:10. > :02:12.Cumbria on Saturday to ensure the emergency responders on the ground

:02:13. > :02:16.without all that they need. He has remained in the Northwest route On

:02:17. > :02:20.Saturday night we saw an unprecedented amount of rainfall.

:02:21. > :02:24.More than a month's Lane from one-day. During Saturday night,

:02:25. > :02:31.Maine rivers all across country exceeded the highest levels ever

:02:32. > :02:38.recorded. There is a mark on the bridge showing the flood level in

:02:39. > :02:43.1853, 2005 flood was hired hn 1 53, which was the highest on record

:02:44. > :02:51.until then. This blood was half a metre higher again. It was .6 of a

:02:52. > :02:57.metre higher... .7 of a metre higher in Kassig and .3 of a metre higher

:02:58. > :03:02.in Apple B. Although over 8000 properties were protected bx our

:03:03. > :03:06.flood defenses, by Sunday morning over 3500 properties have floated

:03:07. > :03:11.across the country. With thd majority in Cumbria. And Carlyle,

:03:12. > :03:17.over 2000 properties flooded soppy over 600 flooded in both Kendall and

:03:18. > :03:23.tested, with over 200 and Appleby. Flooding was also seen in

:03:24. > :03:28.Northumberland. 50,000, 5000 properties lost power in Lancaster,

:03:29. > :03:32.following the flooding of the electricity station. Roads were

:03:33. > :03:41.closed across the Northwest and bridges damaged. A main lind was

:03:42. > :03:43.suspended. Tragically, I can also confirm to the House that there were

:03:44. > :03:48.a number of weather-related fatalities. With instance c`used or

:03:49. > :03:53.exacerbated by flooding or poor weather. I am sure the Housd would

:03:54. > :03:59.want to join with me to express our deepest sympathies to their families

:04:00. > :04:06.and friends. It is a tragic reminder of how dangerous these condhtions

:04:07. > :04:09.can be. On Sunday morning, H chaired a cross government cobra medting to

:04:10. > :04:14.ensure the emergency responders on the ground had all the resotrces

:04:15. > :04:18.they needed and to address hmmediate issues including the threat to the

:04:19. > :04:22.power supply in Lancaster and Carlisle. I spoke with comm`nders in

:04:23. > :04:26.the worst affected areas during the day to ensure they had suffhcient

:04:27. > :04:31.national resources to delivdr their emergency plans. The Prime Linister

:04:32. > :04:34.chaired a further cobra meeting this morning and is visiting the affected

:04:35. > :04:39.areas today. I am pleased to confirm to the House that progress hs being

:04:40. > :04:42.made on recovering some of the impacts copy the number of homes

:04:43. > :04:48.affected by power outages h`s been reduced to less than 5000, following

:04:49. > :04:52.restoration power in Lancaster substation. Electricity cophes are

:04:53. > :04:56.working around the clock to restore power as soon as possible. ,-

:04:57. > :05:02.alleges the companies. Transport remains disrupted across much of the

:05:03. > :05:07.area and many roads remained close the Mac closed. The mainlind remains

:05:08. > :05:12.suspended to Scotland and sdrvices are unlikely to be restored until

:05:13. > :05:15.Wednesday at the earliest. The government will continue to ensure

:05:16. > :05:19.that all resources are made available to support recovery from

:05:20. > :05:23.his flooding. Cover will continue to meet daily to oversee recovdry

:05:24. > :05:28.efforts and I will be travelling to Cumbria and Lancaster to continue to

:05:29. > :05:35.ensure we are doing all we can to help all those affected -- cobra

:05:36. > :05:44.will be meeting. I am pleasdd to confirm to the House, that ly

:05:45. > :05:49.colleague will be enabling the schemes of local authorities of

:05:50. > :05:51.those affected by floods. Some cost will be met by the government. We

:05:52. > :05:58.are announcing further support schemes over the coming days. Since

:05:59. > :06:03.2009, we have invested ?45 lillion in new defenses in Cumbria, but we

:06:04. > :06:07.will need to learn lessons `nd reflect on what we can learn from

:06:08. > :06:12.this extreme weather. In thd last Parliament, there was a rill terms

:06:13. > :06:15.increase in investment in flood defenses and in this Parlialent

:06:16. > :06:24.there will be another incre`se in spending. We are investing to 3p in

:06:25. > :06:29.1500 schemes throughout the country -- ?3 billion. Is also confhrmed

:06:30. > :06:32.that we are protecting flood maintenance spending throughout this

:06:33. > :06:36.Parliament as well as capit`l spending. Mr Speaker, I am sure the

:06:37. > :06:40.whole house would join me in expressing our sincere symp`thy to

:06:41. > :06:44.those who have been affected by this weekend's extreme weather

:06:45. > :06:47.conditions. I can assure thd House that the government will continue to

:06:48. > :06:54.do everything it can to support those affected. I commend the

:06:55. > :06:58.statement to be housed. Hear, hear! Thank you Mr Speaker. I thank the

:06:59. > :07:03.Secretary of State for her statement. I had to smoke and spoken

:07:04. > :07:08.to my honourable friend -- H had this morning spoken... To gdt an

:07:09. > :07:12.update on what's happening hn their constituencies, understanding they

:07:13. > :07:16.cannot be here this afternoon as they are with their constittents. I

:07:17. > :07:20.appreciate that the shadow linister for flooding is quite rightly in his

:07:21. > :07:25.constituency too. RPAS are with all of the amenities and Cumbri` and

:07:26. > :07:28.Lancaster, once again being devastated by flooding. And

:07:29. > :07:34.tragically announcing that ` number of people have lost their lhves Our

:07:35. > :07:39.deepest sympathy and condoldnces. I picture Butte to be emergency

:07:40. > :07:42.services and the Army who h`ve once again responded superbly. The

:07:43. > :07:45.immediate priority has to bd help for all those who have been forced

:07:46. > :07:49.to evacuate their homes and businesses and to make sure that

:07:50. > :07:53.everyone is safe, warm and well Communities like those in Ctmbria

:07:54. > :07:57.have been getting used to r`llying around and helping those who need

:07:58. > :08:00.shelter, food and clothing while they contemplate the state of their

:08:01. > :08:04.homes. They have been magnificent this time too. They are defhnitely

:08:05. > :08:08.worried that further rain is predicted for tomorrow and H hope

:08:09. > :08:15.that emergency response of which the environment secretary spoke is

:08:16. > :08:19.geared up to respond to that too. With the last major floods of

:08:20. > :08:22.2013-14, the diamonds did ddclare that money is no object in this

:08:23. > :08:30.relief effort. -- the Prime Minister declared. Business owners rdceived

:08:31. > :08:32.support from the government. I was pleased to hear the Prime mhnister

:08:33. > :08:36.said today that we must makd sure that everything is done to help this

:08:37. > :08:39.vital phase of dealing with the floods, but it is not enough for the

:08:40. > :08:44.Prime Minister and environmdnt Secretary to place to deal with the

:08:45. > :08:47.devastation and damage causdd. Need a commitment from them also to do

:08:48. > :08:53.all they can to prevent this from happening again. Just six ydars

:08:54. > :08:55.ago, Cumbria was hit by unprecedented flooding soppx

:08:56. > :08:59.described as a once-in-a-lifetime or once in a century event. But, Mr

:09:00. > :09:04.Speaker, it has already happened again and this time as the

:09:05. > :09:08.environment Secretary said, it is even worse. The environment

:09:09. > :09:13.Secretary's predisaster was someone who is prepared to acknowledge the

:09:14. > :09:20.risks proposed by climate change. Does he accept that extreme weather

:09:21. > :09:26.events... Need to be adapted to accordingly. We will be negotiating

:09:27. > :09:28.what we hope is that in stored agreement on climate change right

:09:29. > :09:36.now. Domestically this government has repeatedly abandoned me`sures to

:09:37. > :09:41.reduce the UK's carbon emissions. When she travels to Northwest today

:09:42. > :09:46.I help the environment Secrdtary will see that this cannot continue.

:09:47. > :09:56.Until the 2013-14 Winter floods in the Southwest, defence was

:09:57. > :10:00.downgraded from a 13. Despite a represented increased risk to the UK

:10:01. > :10:06.-- downgraded from a priority. In one year along, and the Coalition/

:10:07. > :10:10.fly spending by more than ?000 million. Will be secretary of state

:10:11. > :10:17.except that this left UK unprepared for extreme weather events? I know

:10:18. > :10:21.capital expenditure has been announced and is protected, but can

:10:22. > :10:28.they not tell us about resotrce funding for defence from 2006-1 to

:10:29. > :10:32.2019-20 until someone next xear .. I will be grateful if she can

:10:33. > :10:36.elaborate on that. Will be secretary of state heed warnings from experts

:10:37. > :10:48.that would need year on year investment of flood defenses to meet

:10:49. > :10:53.the increasing threat it poses. ... Can she honestly reassure the

:10:54. > :10:57.community affected by floodhng that the government is doing enotgh?

:10:58. > :11:01.After the last floods in Culbria, insurance pay-outs to months and in

:11:02. > :11:06.some cases years. Flooding hs not due to become operational until next

:11:07. > :11:12.year so can the Secretary of State of data is on the status of the

:11:13. > :11:18.answers companies since the weekend. Will have sold and businessds be

:11:19. > :11:20.paid properly and in full? Local people who are ready finding it

:11:21. > :11:26.impossible to beat the cost of insurance premiums, what should she

:11:27. > :11:28.offer people to ensure them that their insurance payments will

:11:29. > :11:34.increase even further? Mr Speaker, the environment Secretary spoke of

:11:35. > :11:37.the need for a cross departlental approach over those issues such as

:11:38. > :11:41.road closures, school closures, the role of hospitals... And thd point

:11:42. > :11:47.has been made by my colleagtes that it would be absolute folly to

:11:48. > :11:52.downgrade the West Cumberland Hospital and I, given that the

:11:53. > :11:58.hospital in Carlisle was perishable because of the sheer distance that

:11:59. > :12:02.would have to be travelled. It wasn't geared up to deal with the

:12:03. > :12:06.defence this time around. I am more than happy to confirm to her that we

:12:07. > :12:10.want to see a cross party approach to this as well, working with the

:12:11. > :12:14.communities and the governmdnt departments to try to ensurd that

:12:15. > :12:18.the people in Cumbria and Lancaster, wherever possibld, back

:12:19. > :12:22.home are safe and well with a roof over their head and is dry `s

:12:23. > :12:23.possible before Christmas strikes. I offer my support for that. Hear

:12:24. > :12:33.hear! Mr Speaker, I can assure thd

:12:34. > :12:37.honourable lady that we havd an absolute focus on making sure that

:12:38. > :12:42.the commanders on the ground have every support they need in order to

:12:43. > :12:46.make sure people are safe, that homes are protected, but also aid in

:12:47. > :12:53.recovery efforts. We have sden that in areas like restoring powdr supply

:12:54. > :12:55.I'm also road and transport systems. We are vigilant about the ftture

:12:56. > :13:01.weather Outlook. Cover will be meeting on a daily basis and making

:13:02. > :13:04.sure we have all those forecast -- cobra will be meeting. And we are

:13:05. > :13:09.putting those offices where they need to be. We are constantly

:13:10. > :13:14.vigilant on that at all timds copied the recovery effort and response

:13:15. > :13:18.that we started on Friday on making sure those resources were in place

:13:19. > :13:20.in Cumbria, and we can do what we can by mobilising resources like the

:13:21. > :13:25.Army to make sure that as mtch support was on the ground where it

:13:26. > :13:29.was needed. We have seen an unprecedented weather event. The

:13:30. > :13:36.honourable lady referred to previous party in Cumbria -- flooding. This

:13:37. > :13:41.was more extreme I have a mdtre in some of the key towns and chties in

:13:42. > :13:44.Cumbria of course. It is devastating for those people were previously

:13:45. > :13:53.affected by flooding, who bdlieved that things would be better copy

:13:54. > :13:55.they have been affected agahn and my huge sympathy goes to be local

:13:56. > :14:01.residents and I hope to meet them later today and tomorrow. The

:14:02. > :14:03.honourable lady, is absolutdly right about the extreme weather p`tterns

:14:04. > :14:08.we are seeing. As we say, it is consistent with the trends we are

:14:09. > :14:13.seeing in terms of climate change. Climate change is factored hn to all

:14:14. > :14:16.the modelling work the environment agency does, but clearly in the

:14:17. > :14:21.light of this extreme weathdr, we will have to look at that modelling

:14:22. > :14:28.and make sure it is fit for purpose for future decisions. We constantly

:14:29. > :14:33.review the way we look at, the way we invest in flood defenses. My view

:14:34. > :14:37.is that it is really import`nt that we remain fair to people right

:14:38. > :14:41.across the country and the people of Cumbria. Understand five thdse

:14:42. > :14:43.decisions are being made -- understand why the decisions are

:14:44. > :14:46.being made and get proper protection. If I could turn to flood

:14:47. > :14:52.defence spending, in terms of capital spending over the l`st

:14:53. > :14:55.Parliament we spent ?1.7 billion on capital spending for floods. That

:14:56. > :15:02.was a really terms increase on what we spend between 2005-2010. Where

:15:03. > :15:07.?1.5 billion we spent. On the next six-year programme is to put ?3

:15:08. > :15:10.billion, which represents a return to increase. It is the first time a

:15:11. > :15:13.government has ever laid out a six-year programme. The whole point

:15:14. > :15:16.is that we don't have lumpy bits of flood spending him and actu`lly we

:15:17. > :15:21.commit to a long-term progr`mme which helps to check the cotntry

:15:22. > :15:26.better. Including the impact of climate change, that is fordcast to

:15:27. > :15:31.reduce flood risk by 5%. Ovdr the next six years. In terms of a

:15:32. > :15:37.maintenance budget, which the honourable lady asked about, we

:15:38. > :15:40.spent 1.7 million, sorry ?171 million last your own flood

:15:41. > :15:42.maintenance and in the Autuln Statement he Chancellor confirmed

:15:43. > :15:47.that that will be protected in real terms. For the duration of this

:15:48. > :15:51.Parliament. She also asked `bout the health that people are going to get

:15:52. > :15:55.in terms of insurance and stpport schemes -- the help. What I am going

:15:56. > :16:01.to see him and my colleague asking to see, is that those support

:16:02. > :16:05.schemes are fixable -- is kden to see. And simple to operate some

:16:06. > :16:12.muscle will be working on that over the coming days. Might friend, the

:16:13. > :16:18.community secretary, will bd hosting a discussing to make sure stpport is

:16:19. > :16:24.provided. These issues are of course all very important, but the media

:16:25. > :16:28.prior to has to be on the rdscue and response effort to make surd that we

:16:29. > :16:31.are protecting lives and attacking families. Is such a terribld time of

:16:32. > :16:35.year, just before Christmas, for people to be out of their homes Our

:16:36. > :16:40.absolute priority as a government is making sure that we restore power,

:16:41. > :16:45.supplies to homes and that we restore those transport systems and

:16:46. > :16:49.protect lives. Thank you. Hdar, hear!

:16:50. > :16:53.Lots of my constituency havd been affected by the floods that have

:16:54. > :16:59.brought so much damage in the Northwest. I would like to reinforce

:17:00. > :17:03.the point... Insurance clails should be met speedily nod and six or nine

:17:04. > :17:07.months' time. People need them now not in six or nine months' time

:17:08. > :17:10.Also, would she make absolutely clear to insurance companies that

:17:11. > :17:15.they will be looked at very carefully if they start to withdraw

:17:16. > :17:22.coverage from people who have now benefited by these floods -, been

:17:23. > :17:27.affected by these floods? Following the devastation that they h`ve just

:17:28. > :17:30.had. I think my honourable friend makes a good point. We will be

:17:31. > :17:35.working with insurance comp`nies to make sure that people receive rubber

:17:36. > :17:43.payments and we can get people back into their homes as soon as possible

:17:44. > :17:48.-- proper payments. Let me thank the Secretary of State for his statement

:17:49. > :17:50.this afternoon. My colleagud shares condolences for any families that

:17:51. > :17:55.have been affected over the course of the weekend. Also to say that...

:17:56. > :18:00.My colleagues would be here speaking on behalf of the SNP, but hd is in

:18:01. > :18:08.his constituency assisting with what the maxi work there. We deal the Mac

:18:09. > :18:12.feel for the devastation, btt also the clean-up in Scotland as well. In

:18:13. > :18:16.some of the worst flooding that the region has seen. It is the fact that

:18:17. > :18:20.700 people were evacuated from their homes and hundreds of houses and

:18:21. > :18:28.businesses have experienced flood damage. Also across other p`rts of

:18:29. > :18:39.Scotland, experience the worst damage in 12 years. Mr Speaker, I

:18:40. > :18:42.knows the Mac note that scidntist were sitting always shy awax from

:18:43. > :18:48.any event that point to clilate change, but they also point to the

:18:49. > :18:53.fact that warmer air can hold more moisture. That means that rhsing

:18:54. > :18:56.temperatures are related to storms that may job more rain and ` more

:18:57. > :19:02.intense bursts. If I may, in 20 9 the Scottish Parliament in

:19:03. > :19:06.infamously passed a climate change legislation, using 1990 as `

:19:07. > :19:10.baseline. The Scottish Parlhament committed itself to reducing

:19:11. > :19:18.greenhouse gas emissions by at least 42% by 2020 and at least 80$ by

:19:19. > :19:20.2050. In Scotland, we are doing what we can for renewable energy. It is a

:19:21. > :19:25.pity that this government is removing support. I wonder hf I can

:19:26. > :19:30.ask the Secretary of State hf she will liaise with her colleagues to

:19:31. > :19:35.revisit this. We need to do more to protect. There is potential for

:19:36. > :19:39.extreme weather systems likd this to continue in the UK. We are lucky in

:19:40. > :19:43.the UK that we have the resources to help as much as we can't and

:19:44. > :19:46.preparing for these extreme weather systems and helping communities and

:19:47. > :19:51.aftermath. I am grateful for the comments in that regard. However

:19:52. > :19:57.across the world, small and poorer countries will be far worse hit by

:19:58. > :20:01.the effects of climate change. Today the Scottish Government announced it

:20:02. > :20:05.will double its climate Justice fund by placing a further ?12 million

:20:06. > :20:10.from developing countries to lessen the impact of climate changd -- for

:20:11. > :20:14.developing countries. What hs the UK government doing to assist the

:20:15. > :20:18.situation? I would like to dxpress my sympathy for those peopld

:20:19. > :20:22.affected in Scotland. I know we are working very closely with the

:20:23. > :20:24.Scottish government on our response. In terms of what we are

:20:25. > :20:27.going on climate change, my honourable friend, the clim`te

:20:28. > :20:32.change secretary, is currently in Paris working to secure a good

:20:33. > :20:36.international deal. So we c`n do with this on an internation`l level.

:20:37. > :20:37.Of course we have a very cldar carbon budget system in place here

:20:38. > :20:48.in the UK. Thank you Mr Speaker. I would like

:20:49. > :20:51.to begin by painter be to mx local environment team and making sure and

:20:52. > :20:57.Cumbria who were working all weekend, keeping me up to d`te. My

:20:58. > :21:03.residence are concerned that in less than two years the flood in the Mac

:21:04. > :21:10.and the Mac flooding... Will move away from the environmental

:21:11. > :21:15.agency... Most of this water is why. In my honourable friend tell me what

:21:16. > :21:20.the government is doing to protect that? I think my honourable friend

:21:21. > :21:23.for her question and can I `gree with her about painter but to be

:21:24. > :21:28.fantastic emergency service and environment agency staff who have

:21:29. > :21:33.been working around the clock to support people in the area was make

:21:34. > :21:38.the answer is in terms of otr six year programme, it will mean that an

:21:39. > :21:44.additional 420,000 acres of farmland will be protected. In this specific

:21:45. > :21:47.case of the flooding we've seen in the north over the weekend, we will

:21:48. > :21:54.be looking at what more can be done to help farmers. Over the wdekend

:21:55. > :21:59.and this morning I have been in contact with my honourable friend,

:22:00. > :22:02.the Member for working, and to whom remains in her constituency. She has

:22:03. > :22:10.given me thoughts on the situation in that part of Cumbria. Shd is I

:22:11. > :22:13.understand, extremely grateful for the response of the emergency

:22:14. > :22:19.services. Mr Speaker, I unddrstand that there is concern that there is

:22:20. > :22:21.an unintended consequence of reductions in front line services

:22:22. > :22:25.but also in cuts to local authorities in the environmdnt

:22:26. > :22:28.agency. Those emergency responses may not be possible in the future.

:22:29. > :22:34.With the government please give some thought as to whether, by cttting

:22:35. > :22:37.local authorities and the environment budgets, that that might

:22:38. > :22:41.be damaging to the ability to respond to these events and the

:22:42. > :22:46.future? I think the responsd effort we have seen over the weekend and

:22:47. > :22:51.the preparations put in place by the environment agency, the emergency

:22:52. > :22:54.services, and our Army personnel who have been fantastic. They h`ve been

:22:55. > :22:58.working their socks off on the ground to protect people. I think we

:22:59. > :23:02.are all very grateful for what they have done. My role is to make sure

:23:03. > :23:08.that we are coordinating those efforts and giving the local teams

:23:09. > :23:13.all the support they need. On Saturday and Sunday as the to the

:23:14. > :23:16.command to ask if they needdd any additional support and resotrces

:23:17. > :23:19.copy all those resources have been made available. Of course wd will

:23:20. > :23:25.continue to monitor the sittation to make sure those resources are

:23:26. > :23:29.available on the ground. Magic is opportunity to put on record my

:23:30. > :23:34.thanks to emergency services -- may I take this opportunity. And the

:23:35. > :23:38.Secretary of State assure md that she will continue to work whth

:23:39. > :23:41.farmers in my constituency to ensure that the devastation that some of

:23:42. > :23:46.them have suffered over recdnt days will be looked at with some

:23:47. > :23:49.sympathy? Hear, hear! I agree with my honourable friend.

:23:50. > :23:52.As well as making sure that farmland is protected as part of our six year

:23:53. > :23:56.flood defence programme. We will also be looking at specific impact

:23:57. > :24:02.on farmers. My colleague, the farming minister will be dohng work

:24:03. > :24:08.on that. This morning I met with businesses in York who were over

:24:09. > :24:11.four metres underwater. The 52nd flooding they have had withhn a

:24:12. > :24:19.month. -- and this is the sdcond flooding. Can the Day a be `ssured

:24:20. > :24:24.that sandbags are available free for businesses because they do pay a

:24:25. > :24:28.heavy price when flooding occurs? I thank the honourable Lady for her

:24:29. > :24:34.question. We are monitoring the situation in York very closdly. We

:24:35. > :24:38.have defenses in place in York and the environment agency make sure

:24:39. > :24:40.that the relevant equipment like sandbags and pumps are moved to the

:24:41. > :24:52.area in question. Has also be impacted this wdekend, I

:24:53. > :24:55.welcome my honourable friend's earlier comments for those working

:24:56. > :24:59.hard in my area and my thoughts are with those impacted elsewhere. I

:25:00. > :25:03.recently visited a village where the community have come together to

:25:04. > :25:06.create natural flood defensds including a series of holding ponds.

:25:07. > :25:13.Is my right honourable friend agreed that such things have a rold to play

:25:14. > :25:19.in preventing floods, to support these were appropriate. I think my

:25:20. > :25:21.honourable friend for his qtestion and have great sympathy for his

:25:22. > :25:25.constituents that have been affected, I completely agred that

:25:26. > :25:32.these natural defence schemds can play a very strong part in flood

:25:33. > :25:35.prevention and indeed I recdntly visited a flood project in Xorkshire

:25:36. > :25:41.which is doing just that. Not only does it help reduce flooding, it

:25:42. > :25:48.also contributions to the n`tural environment and diversity as well.

:25:49. > :25:55.It is times like this that we begin to worry about things like cuts

:25:56. > :26:02.local government and fire sdrvice have suffered from these for the

:26:03. > :26:07.last five years. Is there any opportunity of this minister, saying

:26:08. > :26:14.from this dispatch box todax that they will ensure that the fhre

:26:15. > :26:21.service will have those cuts reversed, and that they will be able

:26:22. > :26:27.to carry on without losing len and machinery from this date forward was

:26:28. > :26:32.white what I would say to the honourable gentleman is that we have

:26:33. > :26:37.seen fantastic support from the fire service and other services `nd the

:26:38. > :26:42.coordination on the ground has been superb. We have kept in regtlar

:26:43. > :26:46.touch with gold command in those local areas but one of the things I

:26:47. > :26:51.have confirmed today is that in terms of flood protection, we are

:26:52. > :26:58.seeing an increase in real terms, in capital spending over the ndxt

:26:59. > :27:01.Parliament and we are also seeing a protection in real terms of off

:27:02. > :27:05.maintenance budget and that is really important in terms of

:27:06. > :27:17.preventing and reducing the impact of flooding. Thank you Mr Speaker,

:27:18. > :27:20.in light of these cuts elsewhere, defenses have secured and protected

:27:21. > :27:24.as they were supposed to. Whth the Secretary of State now conshder as a

:27:25. > :27:29.matter of urgency, increasing the 11 million trees we plan to pl`nt in

:27:30. > :27:36.this Parliament saw it as one tree five people, increased to fhve trees

:27:37. > :27:43.for every person. This is 50,00 hectares, ... To help naturd hold

:27:44. > :27:48.water and reduce the risk of flooding in long-term. First of all

:27:49. > :27:51.I completely agree with my honourable friend about mentioning

:27:52. > :27:55.the number of houses that wdre protected and while my thoughts are

:27:56. > :28:00.with those who flooded -- who were flooded, we saw houses in the North

:28:01. > :28:04.of England protected by our defence is. I completely agree with her

:28:05. > :28:10.about being added at a cert`in level and making sure we are lookhng at

:28:11. > :28:17.programmes that can reduce flood risk and improve the environment at

:28:18. > :28:22.the same time. Can I put on the record my heartfelt sympathhes for

:28:23. > :28:31.the friends and families of all those who died in these event. My

:28:32. > :28:34.consistency was badly flooddd in 2007 and when one has to live

:28:35. > :28:39.through such an event to understand the devastation that it vishts upon

:28:40. > :28:42.communities and families alhke. Of the Secretary of State has lade a

:28:43. > :28:47.great deal of play about thd real terms increase in maintenance

:28:48. > :28:52.spending. However, can she risk her the House that she thinks there is

:28:53. > :29:01.an adequate level of funding to start with for maintenance, and that

:29:02. > :29:08.the environment agency is adequately funded with its role in rel`tion to

:29:09. > :29:11.flood prevention and response? I think back the honourable l`dy for

:29:12. > :29:17.her question I know she has a lot of experience in those areas. The

:29:18. > :29:23.budget, I have had this discussion with the environment agency, is

:29:24. > :29:30.effective. In terms of the level of plans we have had at the molent As

:29:31. > :29:36.I mentioned with the incident, incidents in Cumbria, we saw an

:29:37. > :29:44.extreme weather event, as long, as stop... To evacuate people, and also

:29:45. > :29:54.reduce the impact, clearly that is an area we need to look at. With

:29:55. > :29:59.uncanny time limits, a publhcation arrived in my post box todax from

:30:00. > :30:04.the Association of British hnsurers entitled, responding to major flush

:30:05. > :30:08.the white flood. Which is a useful guides to helping those affdcted by

:30:09. > :30:14.floods. And I asked my friend if she will speak and ensure that copies of

:30:15. > :30:18.this booklet are given to everyone who has been affected by thhs we

:30:19. > :30:22.can's flooding? I thank my honourable friend for his qtestion

:30:23. > :30:25.and I met with the AVI a cotple of weeks ago and I saw that document

:30:26. > :30:30.and it is indeed a good doctment which I would encourage manx members

:30:31. > :30:37.of Parliament to use in terls of helping their constituents. Doubling

:30:38. > :30:41.up as a helpful system, on top of other... Always willing to help we

:30:42. > :30:47.are grateful to the honourable to the bone. Like everybody in this

:30:48. > :30:51.House I would like to pay tribute to all of our emergency systems and

:30:52. > :30:56.services for their work that they do and continue to do. There is at

:30:57. > :31:02.present no formal expectation for fire and rescue services to actually

:31:03. > :31:07.attend floods in England and Wales. Is the Secretary of State agree with

:31:08. > :31:12.me that in order to ensure effective, safe and robust response

:31:13. > :31:17.to flooding, that we should follow the example of Scotland and Northern

:31:18. > :31:25.Ireland and make it a statutory duty to respond to flooding. I thank the

:31:26. > :31:30.honourable lady for her question. My view is that the procedures we have

:31:31. > :31:33.are working, the gathering of government departments on S`turday,

:31:34. > :31:36.making sure we have the right preparations in place in terms of

:31:37. > :31:41.the emergency service and environment agency and the @rmy

:31:42. > :31:45.Takeover system we have to co-ordinate things we have `n

:31:46. > :31:49.emergency, as we have had in the last few days has worked very

:31:50. > :31:52.effectively and we have been able to mobilise people on the ground. What

:31:53. > :31:57.I am interested in is what works and what is effective, and how we

:31:58. > :32:06.protect the maximum number of people and the maximum number of homes from

:32:07. > :32:09.this extreme event. I also would like to pay tribute to the dmergency

:32:10. > :32:15.services. As an officer of the problem and to regroup rescte.. I

:32:16. > :32:20.would like to pay tribute to those rescue workers who do a hugd amount

:32:21. > :32:26.of work to support the commhttee is effective. With Teresa being a

:32:27. > :32:29.important part of the econoly. Every effort to be made to support local

:32:30. > :32:32.business communities over the Christmas season and the run-up to

:32:33. > :32:38.it in these very difficult circumstances. My honourabld friend

:32:39. > :32:43.is absolutely right, mounting rescue have been a fantastic support,

:32:44. > :32:48.particularly in some remote villages across the North of England,

:32:49. > :32:50.particularly in Cumbria. I like pay tribute for that around-the,clock

:32:51. > :32:55.work that has been absolutely fantastic. I agree with the

:32:56. > :32:59.honourable gentleman about rural tourism, it is already worth 10

:33:00. > :33:01.billion for the economy, it is important we get things up `nd

:33:02. > :33:06.running again. That is why H am working with my colleagues hn the

:33:07. > :33:11.transport secretary, to makd sure we get power and transport up `nd

:33:12. > :33:17.running so people not only dnjoyed as residents can also visit the

:33:18. > :33:21.area. I would like to give condolences expressed by thd

:33:22. > :33:23.secretary of state but also the commendation she gave to thd

:33:24. > :33:28.emergency service volunteers to copy and the valuable work that they re

:33:29. > :33:33.doing. Across England and W`les have been affected by this, incltding the

:33:34. > :33:36.leader of my party, who suffered the relatively minor inconvenience of

:33:37. > :33:41.having his car written off `s part of the flood. Minor compared to what

:33:42. > :33:47.other people have experiencdd. He cannot be here today. Clearly the

:33:48. > :33:52.Secretary of State is focushng on the emergency, but after thd

:33:53. > :33:57.emergency, with the Secretary of State tried to apply to the EU

:33:58. > :33:59.Solidarity fund to help rebtild communities devastated by floods

:34:00. > :34:02.once the immediate emergencx has been dealt with? I thank thd

:34:03. > :34:07.honourable gentleman for his question, my understanding hs quite

:34:08. > :34:12.a high threshold to obtain funding from that but of course we will look

:34:13. > :34:15.at every potential sources of funding. As I mentioned alrdady my

:34:16. > :34:19.right honourable friend the community secretary will be opening

:34:20. > :34:27.the bell when fund and we are looking at specific schemes as well.

:34:28. > :34:30.Floods as we have seen can be devastating in their impact on

:34:31. > :34:36.businesses, homes and indivhduals in our thoughts are with them `ffected.

:34:37. > :34:40.Along with the department's commitment today to invest hn

:34:41. > :34:43.schemes, with my right honotrable friend continued commitment to

:34:44. > :34:49.invest in such schemes and continue the vital work she has begun that

:34:50. > :34:53.has already spared many people damage or flooding and has the

:34:54. > :34:57.potential to affect many more in the future was white I thank motntable

:34:58. > :35:02.front for his question, it hs an absolute priority for my department

:35:03. > :35:08.to improve our flood defensds as much as possible to reduce the flood

:35:09. > :35:15.risk and make sure we're prdpared for when these extreme situ`tions do

:35:16. > :35:17.occur. That is why we acted early on Saturday bringing together

:35:18. > :35:21.departments to make sure we have a response prepared on Sunday, holding

:35:22. > :35:24.a cobra, making sure the Arly were deployed, so that we can de`l with

:35:25. > :35:30.those situations and protect as many lives and as many homes as possible.

:35:31. > :35:36.Much of my immediate family including my parents live in that

:35:37. > :35:40.area and thankfully, they are safe, but might opt and prayers aren't

:35:41. > :35:43.going out to everybody affected by this dreadful situation and

:35:44. > :35:48.obviously, thank you to our emergency services and commtnity

:35:49. > :35:53.volunteers. But just six ye`rs of, after unprecedented flooding,

:35:54. > :35:56.Cumbria has been hit by unprecedented rainfall. Does the

:35:57. > :36:01.secretary agreed that extrele weather like this is an increasing

:36:02. > :36:06.future of British weather and that the government's policy has to

:36:07. > :36:10.adaptor that? I think the honourable lady for the question and al pleased

:36:11. > :36:17.to hear that her family is safe and clearly, the events in Carlhsle were

:36:18. > :36:21.not just extreme weather evdnts they were significantly worse than

:36:22. > :36:25.they were on previous occashons with an additional half a metre of water

:36:26. > :36:32.which has a huge impact on local communities. Of course, as with all

:36:33. > :36:38.major incidents, we will look at this and see the lessons th`t can be

:36:39. > :36:42.learned for the future. Can I pause on my sympathy to all those who have

:36:43. > :36:45.been affected and commendathon to all emergency services who have

:36:46. > :36:51.always done a fantastic job. Can I ask my right honourable fridnd to

:36:52. > :36:55.ensure that with the pressure on housing, that she is going to note

:36:56. > :37:01.the new look at levels of w`ter rising and ensured that no new

:37:02. > :37:04.housing is built in these locations? I thank my honourable friend for his

:37:05. > :37:13.question and that is very mtch part of our planning system. Mr Speaker,

:37:14. > :37:18.I give my thoughts and praydrs to those impacted by these app`lling

:37:19. > :37:21.scenes, but Mr Speaker, we have seen them occurred the use of thd word

:37:22. > :37:24.unprecedented time and time again, we see me becoming back in this

:37:25. > :37:30.house to discuss these kinds of issues. It is it -- is it now time

:37:31. > :37:31.as the country and nation wd sat down and looked at the

:37:32. > :37:40.infrastructure, where subst`tions are, where railways are, tr`in

:37:41. > :37:52.systems, look at everything and .. National consultation so th`t we can

:37:53. > :37:56.actually have a proper... I think the honourable Joan won for his

:37:57. > :38:01.question, we do have very clear national resilience plans about our

:38:02. > :38:06.key asset in making sure th`t we are protected. Of course, after every

:38:07. > :38:10.major incident, we reviewed to see what can be improved. I would say

:38:11. > :38:16.this about our defenses, we are constantly reviewing, making sure it

:38:17. > :38:19.is as good as possible, but each time, something different h`ppens of

:38:20. > :38:25.course. We need to be ill to adjust that. We are open and transparent,

:38:26. > :38:28.the public can look at the methodology, the environment agency

:38:29. > :38:35.uses, it is very sophisticated data from the office, but we will look at

:38:36. > :38:39.this and see what more can be done. Thank you Mr Speaker, on th`t note,

:38:40. > :38:44.the Secretary of State and `lso my sympathies are with everybody

:38:45. > :38:47.affected by the flooding. Ctmbria is in the recovery phase. Will the

:38:48. > :38:51.Secretary of State review the flood defence modelling for the lower

:38:52. > :38:54.Thames region, which many of my revenue Mike residents do not have

:38:55. > :39:03.any confidence in, and will she particularly look into another which

:39:04. > :39:08.is called by civil engineers even before floods in 2014 and 2015.

:39:09. > :39:12.White I am very happy to discuss this issue with the honourable lady

:39:13. > :39:18.and potentially meet the people who are working on this proposed scheme.

:39:19. > :39:21.I think it is very helpful to have a open and transparent discussion

:39:22. > :39:23.about why the decisions on flooding have been made and I'm will be happy

:39:24. > :39:31.to share that data modelling with her. The people only know too well

:39:32. > :39:38.the devastation that flooding causes. Extending this to all of

:39:39. > :39:44.this delight the people affdcted by this weekend, we pay to be to the

:39:45. > :39:48.emergency services and to also BBC radio who helped in situations like

:39:49. > :39:51.this. Can ask the Secretary of State whether she is given considdration

:39:52. > :39:57.to increasing the support to national flooding... Who do so much

:39:58. > :40:01.to help families affected bx flooding, bytes of practical support

:40:02. > :40:06.and... Additional resources to them would be helpful at this tile. I

:40:07. > :40:14.thank the honourable lady for her point, she is absolutely right about

:40:15. > :40:17.the blood for him, but also by local radio and making sure peopld were

:40:18. > :40:24.evacuated from their homes, given adequate warning, saying we can keep

:40:25. > :40:33.people safe. -- flood warning. The evaluation website is also ` good

:40:34. > :40:38.resource, has... So the public are able to access this information we

:40:39. > :40:42.have also been keeping people up on social media and that has enabled

:40:43. > :40:50.the Mike made us be able to keep people safe. According to the

:40:51. > :40:54.Association of British insurers my constituency is the most likely to

:40:55. > :40:58.flood in the entirety of thd UK and the tidal surge of 2013 flooded

:40:59. > :41:01.hundreds of homes, the consdquences of which many of my constittents are

:41:02. > :41:07.living with. Canasta Secret`ry of State to go back and double check

:41:08. > :41:11.the forthcoming Boston barrher is not only up to the job, but also

:41:12. > :41:17.provides a much needed economic benefits that come with dev`stating

:41:18. > :41:23.floods such as ones we see hn Cumbria. I agree with my horrible

:41:24. > :41:28.friend at the Boston barrier is an extremely important scheme, not just

:41:29. > :41:32.a local businesses in Boston, but also for farmers in the surrounding

:41:33. > :41:38.area, I know we have had discussions where I met drainage boards about

:41:39. > :41:41.what can be done in Lincolnshire. As I said, I would be very happy to

:41:42. > :41:47.update my honourable friend on the modelling we have done and the

:41:48. > :41:52.forecast we have made. Can H join the Secretary of State in ddalings

:41:53. > :41:57.of these to on her families affected. What message is the

:41:58. > :42:00.government sending to those this emergency service personnel who are

:42:01. > :42:07.giving their all right now, and to the people set out and affected

:42:08. > :42:11.rainout. Five stations closhng in Cumbria alone, under the latest

:42:12. > :42:15.round of service cuts, and how will this affect the government's ability

:42:16. > :42:21.to respond to future extremd conditions, the ministers s`id today

:42:22. > :42:25.we must expect those. The mx message that the firefighters of Culbria is

:42:26. > :42:29.thank you, for all the work you have done for the local people on the

:42:30. > :42:33.fantastic work done working with the police, with other emergencx

:42:34. > :42:39.services, with the Army and the environment agency. To give Mr

:42:40. > :42:42.Speaker, apart from the nathonal interest in ensuring that Ctmbria

:42:43. > :42:51.gets the support it needs, ly research lives at a city and has

:42:52. > :42:56.raised with me... Ken Mr look at not just a commitment to rapid repair

:42:57. > :43:02.but also providing rubber transport and the structure in this area for

:43:03. > :43:06.the future? I think my all for and for the question, the issue was

:43:07. > :43:10.discussed in this morning's programme as part of our programme

:43:11. > :43:12.to make sure that bridges are restored as soon as possibld, and my

:43:13. > :43:21.honourable friend the transport secretary will be working on that.

:43:22. > :43:25.In her statement the Secret`ry of State talked about assisting local

:43:26. > :43:29.authorities through the recovery phase with 100% of eligible costs.

:43:30. > :43:34.Can she outlined to the House what she considers to be the recovery

:43:35. > :43:38.stage, is it just the clean,up and recovery, or is it the

:43:39. > :43:42.reconstruction and the investment in new infrastructure and to ftture

:43:43. > :43:49.proof and what would she consider to be an eligible costs for local

:43:50. > :43:52.authorities as well? I think Mike the honourable German for hhs

:43:53. > :43:56.question, my honourable fridnd the community secretary will be leading

:43:57. > :43:58.out more details of this gale later this week, but they are

:43:59. > :44:07.well-established terms under which the scheme operates. Might die with

:44:08. > :44:13.your permission on behalf of the people of Somerset, who know what

:44:14. > :44:18.this is like, extend my condolences and sympathies to all those affected

:44:19. > :44:22.in the Northwest and to say how pleased I am to hear that expertise

:44:23. > :44:27.from Somerset is being used up there. In Somerset, local

:44:28. > :44:31.authorities and national government have come together to fund with

:44:32. > :44:36.residents the Somerset Rivers authority to ensure adequatd funding

:44:37. > :44:39.and oversight for flood defdnses on an ongoing basis. Does my rhght

:44:40. > :44:43.honourable friend agree with me that this is very welcome and th`t the

:44:44. > :44:47.decision to move ahead with dredging this year is correct, despite the

:44:48. > :44:52.opposition of Somerset's global global liberal Democrats? I think

:44:53. > :44:55.Mike Brown will front for hhs question and it is fantastic

:44:56. > :45:03.volunteers that come from Somerset to help out the situation. Hn

:45:04. > :45:07.Cumbria. I am happy to have a store blessed the rivers authoritx to get

:45:08. > :45:10.the local people the control over situations like dredging th`t take

:45:11. > :45:13.place in the local area and is absolutely right that peopld who

:45:14. > :45:20.know the ground and underst`nd the area that are making those crucial

:45:21. > :45:28.decisions. I know I speak for many and West Kent and I say that I think

:45:29. > :45:34.my local bike honourable frhend Remember that those of us in West

:45:35. > :45:39.Kent not only feel huge sympathy for combat troops and Cambria, but also

:45:40. > :45:42.are very keen to ensure that the defence is required on the lidway

:45:43. > :45:47.and belt are put in place. Ly honourable friend who is not here I

:45:48. > :45:55.know will be urging me and others to speak on behalf of of towns like

:45:56. > :46:00.umbrage and eat umbrage absolutely need defenses that her plan only a

:46:01. > :46:03.number of years ago when we suffered ourselves and I are Secretary State

:46:04. > :46:10.to not forget the rest of the country. I thank my honourable

:46:11. > :46:13.friend for his question. We are assessing additional financd in

:46:14. > :46:17.capital spinach or in defenses in real terms over this Parlialent so

:46:18. > :46:23.we are investing to .3 billhon, I am absolutely committed that that money

:46:24. > :46:27.is to be distributed in a clear and transparent way so that people are

:46:28. > :46:41.fully understanding of how ht is being used. Point of order. In the

:46:42. > :46:47.department of questions earlier asked a question about support for

:46:48. > :46:53.disabled people retaining work. A minister from... Stated that it was

:46:54. > :47:09.at record levels. Part of worker pension... In 2009 and ten, there

:47:10. > :47:12.were a number of users accessing it. Provide the House with everx mission

:47:13. > :47:15.he was referring to today or make it broader statement that he mhght

:47:16. > :47:22.actually answered the questhon I asked. A better recourse is for the

:47:23. > :47:28.honourable gentleman to makd a short journey to the table office and to

:47:29. > :47:33.further questions, I do not know baseline year the Minister had in

:47:34. > :47:38.mind when making his comparhson but I must just gently add nor hs there

:47:39. > :47:44.any way my response ability to know. So I would say to the honourable

:47:45. > :47:47.gentleman, who is an ingenious contributor to our proceedings is

:47:48. > :47:51.that his head almost certainly not be filled with a series of follow-up

:47:52. > :47:55.questions, which in a sense encapsulates his discredit them at

:47:56. > :47:58.the satisfaction with what he has heard so start like soap ard. He

:47:59. > :48:01.should make use of the question system, whether the Minister likes

:48:02. > :48:06.it or not, I rather have thd knowledge that is precisely what the

:48:07. > :48:12.honourable gentleman will not do. If there are no further points of

:48:13. > :48:18.order, we will proceed with the main business. The club will now proceed

:48:19. > :48:25.to read the orders of the d`y. Local devolution Bill Law, committed to

:48:26. > :48:28.the House to be considered. We begin with New Clause seven, with which it

:48:29. > :48:35.will be convenient to consider government amendment 51, as on the

:48:36. > :48:43.selection paper. To move, Ndw Clause seven, I call the Parliamentary

:48:44. > :48:47.under Secretary of State. Think you meet Mr Speaker, I beg to move

:48:48. > :48:52.amendment New Clause seven `nd will also speak to them 51. I thhnk first

:48:53. > :48:56.as you put on the record my gratitude and that of my colleagues

:48:57. > :48:59.for the representations madd by a number of honourable members who are

:49:00. > :49:02.keen to see this provision hncluded in the bill who are looking to

:49:03. > :49:07.support their local and nathonal parks authorities to empower those

:49:08. > :49:11.local authorities to do the best job they can and to continue to

:49:12. > :49:15.contribute to the communitids they represent. In particular, the right

:49:16. > :49:29.honourable members from these areas. As well as have to add that

:49:30. > :49:32.County counsellor of North Xorkshire County Council who made strdnuous

:49:33. > :49:37.efforts to convince us of the merits of these changes and kindly arranged

:49:38. > :49:40.for me to represent them at me with representatives of the North

:49:41. > :49:44.Yorkshire arts Authority and national parks England. Mr Speaker,

:49:45. > :49:48.in light of this week and's flooding I think it is important to reiterate

:49:49. > :49:53.the comments of my right honourable friend, the Secretary of St`te for

:49:54. > :49:57.environment, food and rural affairs in the same and we just heard, my

:49:58. > :50:00.sympathy to the people Cumbria and other areas affected in recognition

:50:01. > :50:04.of the significant impact of what has happened there in the

:50:05. > :50:08.unprecedented weather events that we have seen. I should first s`y, in

:50:09. > :50:13.terms of speaking specifically to the content of this New Clatse

:50:14. > :50:16.amendment, say a few words `bout the role of national Park authorities in

:50:17. > :50:22.that context in relation to water management and how those ch`nges may

:50:23. > :50:25.assist in further perform in those role. Although national Park

:50:26. > :50:29.authorities do not have the slots will be for planning, the ddcisions

:50:30. > :50:33.they make and edit control they and force can make a big differdnce to

:50:34. > :50:37.the demands placed on those who have to respond during an emergency.

:50:38. > :50:40.National parks have an important role to play in managing water

:50:41. > :50:47.environment and help with restoration work. For example,

:50:48. > :50:52.pleasant 2009 caused severe damage to the Cumbria and national Park.

:50:53. > :50:56.Over 250 bridges were damagdd or destroyed and 85 need a rep`ir. The

:50:57. > :51:00.function specific of competdnce that we are discussing with thesd

:51:01. > :51:05.amendments to be used to enhance the national parts authority to rip

:51:06. > :51:09.respond to flood emergencies by allowing partnerships to develop

:51:10. > :51:12.skills and capacity within small rural communities and busindsses to

:51:13. > :51:16.assist with response is needed. To develop specific skills to combat

:51:17. > :51:23.future flood management and to adapt the network to include, improve

:51:24. > :51:31.blood results. Given that n`tional parks may cover one or more Metro

:51:32. > :51:36.Mayor areas, and I give to him the example of the District nathonal

:51:37. > :51:41.Park at which is in Manchester, partly in South Yorkshire as well,

:51:42. > :51:46.to areas that may well soon have Is there a case for having somd kind of

:51:47. > :51:51.ordination for emergency pl`nning to make sure that the different parts

:51:52. > :51:57.of the national Park, there is the same resilience and same emdrgency

:51:58. > :52:00.planning to allow it? I think the honourable member makes an hmportant

:52:01. > :52:02.point, we want to see that coronation and there are structures

:52:03. > :52:08.in place to ensure that different bodies work together to respond as

:52:09. > :52:11.efficiently as possible and what for -- from what I have seen in

:52:12. > :52:15.happening in Cumbria and other areas and we can, number of those bodies

:52:16. > :52:18.are working very hard to deliver that for local communities. It is an

:52:19. > :52:23.important point and absolutdly we want to see as much cooperation and

:52:24. > :52:28.empower those public bodies to carry out that cooperation wherevdr we

:52:29. > :52:32.can. That is in many ways underlies the purpose of devolution and I

:52:33. > :52:35.think it is an apt time for him to put his comments on the record and

:52:36. > :52:47.do something we would have to see. New cause... I give way. In the East

:52:48. > :52:53.Midlands, there is a deed to and into which may or may not h`ve a

:52:54. > :53:00.direct. There is also Sheffheld city which includes other cities and

:53:01. > :53:07.other districts and councils in North Yorkshire. In the middle of

:53:08. > :53:13.all of that, there is the hdart recall and various other major

:53:14. > :53:18.buildings. What I want to know now that he is said there should be the

:53:19. > :53:27.greatest cooperation, how c`n there be great cooperation as between the

:53:28. > :53:34.Sheffield people who are anxious to take over large areas of thd

:53:35. > :53:44.district or deed to into whhch is also part of the same area? ,? - D

:53:45. > :53:50.two in two. What is the government's policy? Mr Spe`ker

:53:51. > :53:54.devolution is the bottom-up process, it is done by consensus, I know we

:53:55. > :53:58.will have significant opportunity to further discuss some the provisions

:53:59. > :54:01.made today, but were receivdd bodies that have the capacity to

:54:02. > :54:05.co-operate, we want to empower them to do so and to give them the

:54:06. > :54:09.leaders they need to deliver better services, public services, dconomic

:54:10. > :54:11.development to do this sort of thing and to give them the leaders they

:54:12. > :54:13.need to deliver better servhces public services, economic

:54:14. > :54:19.development to do this sort of thing in the first step to that process

:54:20. > :54:24.and empowering our national parks authorities to do what they can do

:54:25. > :54:26.to contribute not just to the flooding resilience which I have

:54:27. > :54:29.Artie spoken of, but also to improve the offer that they can makd to the

:54:30. > :54:35.public to improve the work they already do so well. New Clatse

:54:36. > :54:38.seven, it confers new gener`l powers on national Park authorities in

:54:39. > :54:42.England along similar lines of those conferred among others, fird rescue

:54:43. > :54:47.Authority, integrated transport authorities. In chapters two and

:54:48. > :54:51.three of part one of the local. . And of for clarity and put on the

:54:52. > :54:54.record for honourable members on the front bench opposite, this hs of

:54:55. > :54:58.course the general powers are to enable a national park to do more

:54:59. > :55:01.and do it better. They are not a back door to cracking or sh`le gas

:55:02. > :55:05.development, that will not `ffect the approach we intend to t`ke in

:55:06. > :55:09.that area. In England, our nine national parks, including some of

:55:10. > :55:13.our country's finest landsc`pes and exciting wildlife. As part of our

:55:14. > :55:17.national identity, national parks protect these landscapes for future

:55:18. > :55:21.generations, for us all to dnjoy. They are the cornerstone to many

:55:22. > :55:25.rural businesses. These new powers for national Park authoritids will

:55:26. > :55:28.allow an authority to act as an individual unit with certain

:55:29. > :55:32.limitations in relation to the functions that an authority has For

:55:33. > :55:37.example, a function specific to power competence will allow a

:55:38. > :55:40.national authority to act through a company and trade in a broader way

:55:41. > :55:46.than they currently can. National Park authorities they have `sked for

:55:47. > :55:50.the star. They consider it ht.. For example, they consider that they

:55:51. > :55:54.will be in a better position to enter into a partnership to support

:55:55. > :55:58.growth across our rural economy The chair of national parts England has

:55:59. > :56:00.said that we are pleased to see the government introduces in thd

:56:01. > :56:02.government introduces a memo. Is what happened national Park

:56:03. > :56:06.authorities to maximise opportunities to the fill otr

:56:07. > :56:10.statutory purposes. This me`sure will allow national Park authorities

:56:11. > :56:15.to participate fully in deals such as Northumberland national Park

:56:16. > :56:17.request as part of the Northeast devolution deal and to seek

:56:18. > :56:21.additional sources of funding to further support their work hn

:56:22. > :56:24.supporting rural economies. Is important to be clear that the power

:56:25. > :56:29.competence does not overridd existing legislation. National Park

:56:30. > :56:33.authorities will be down by their statutory purposes, conservhng and

:56:34. > :56:36.enhancing national beauty and wildlife and cultural herit`ge of an

:56:37. > :56:39.area, and providing opportunities for the understanding and enjoyment

:56:40. > :56:43.of the special qualities of the area. It is also important to be

:56:44. > :56:46.clear that his power not be used by national Park authorities as an

:56:47. > :56:49.opportunity to prevented develop charge interest of the all but a

:56:50. > :56:53.very small percentage of our national parts are owned prhvately

:56:54. > :56:56.and not bite national parks authorities and can have no legal

:56:57. > :57:01.basis for charging for access. I want to clarify that neither with

:57:02. > :57:04.these powers be used to encourage or permit too much or inappropriate

:57:05. > :57:08.development. National parks are designated under the nation`l Parks

:57:09. > :57:13.access to the act 1941 for the natural beauty and opportunhties for

:57:14. > :57:18.recreation. National percent to statutory repurposes which H just

:57:19. > :57:21.referred to. The framework for concepts will remain unchanged. And,

:57:22. > :57:24.in using their new powers, the Park authorities could not promote or

:57:25. > :57:28.permit activities that are incompatible with the statutory

:57:29. > :57:32.purposes. The powers providdd to the Secretary of State by regul`tion to

:57:33. > :57:35.restrict the use of powers to the national Park authorities in a

:57:36. > :57:38.particular way relates solely to this New Clause and not to there

:57:39. > :57:45.exist in powers. Other than those concerning further internathonal --

:57:46. > :57:47.the powers replace the existing general powers of the national Park

:57:48. > :57:52.authorities under the environment act of 1995. The new powers or

:57:53. > :57:56.consider more extensive, but are being repealed to avoid overlap

:57:57. > :58:03.Amended 50 West is a man dyhng miner and technical amendment Dightal

:58:04. > :58:06.five. -- these are changes Lr Speaker that we're making and

:58:07. > :58:09.response to comments that honourable members have made in response to the

:58:10. > :58:13.effective representation we have seen from a number of honourable

:58:14. > :58:16.members and from national p`rts England and national parks

:58:17. > :58:20.authorities that wanted to see them included in this bill. Therdfore

:58:21. > :58:23.this is a section debate th`t I hope will be supported broadly across the

:58:24. > :58:26.House and with these explan`tions, I hope the honourable members will be

:58:27. > :58:31.a will to accept New Clause seven commitment 51.

:58:32. > :58:38.New Clause seven, English n`tional park authority's general powers The

:58:39. > :58:46.question is that the Clause be read a second time. Hear, hear!

:58:47. > :58:52.Thank you Mr Speaker. Our n`tional parks or our precious national

:58:53. > :58:59.assets. Millions of people tse and enjoy them every year. They are

:59:00. > :59:06.areas of the countryside th`t everyone can visit and wherd people

:59:07. > :59:09.live, work and shape the landscape. We have 15 national parks, ten in

:59:10. > :59:16.England, three in Wales and two in Scotland. In his Autumn Statement,

:59:17. > :59:20.the Chancellor included devolution to national park authorities in

:59:21. > :59:27.England, allowing them to l`nd invest, trade, and set up

:59:28. > :59:31.cooperative with businesses -- lend, legally known as the general

:59:32. > :59:37.powers competent. However wd know what is driving this change. That is

:59:38. > :59:40.cuts made by this government. Hear, hear!

:59:41. > :59:46.National park authorities in England have suffered cuts of up to 40% and

:59:47. > :59:53.their government funding since 010. Indeed, Northumberland national park

:59:54. > :59:57.are already renting out thehr office space which has been vacated by

:59:58. > :00:02.staff who have lost their jobs were in enterprise hub has been set up.

:00:03. > :00:08.The Secretary of State has tabled New Clause seven, which would amend

:00:09. > :00:13.the environment act 1995 to provide English national park authorities

:00:14. > :00:15.with general powers to do anything they consider appropriate in

:00:16. > :00:25.carrying out their function`l purposes. These new general powers

:00:26. > :00:28.set out in these sections 64 a, are similar to those on other

:00:29. > :00:36.authorities considered by chapter one of part one of the localism act,

:00:37. > :00:42.2011. The new laws on the applies to English national park authorities.

:00:43. > :00:47.Section 65B limits the scopd of the general power of competence in

:00:48. > :00:51.certain respects. Section 64B does not allow English national parks to

:00:52. > :00:57.borrow money or to charge a person for anything it does, other than for

:00:58. > :01:03.a commercial purpose. This immediately raises concerns. We have

:01:04. > :01:11.seen the Coalition government ayes attempt to privatise our forest

:01:12. > :01:14.which was met... This attempt was rightly defeated. We have sden this

:01:15. > :01:20.government attempt to open tp our national parks to cracking, again

:01:21. > :01:24.causing a great deal of concern amongst those who value our precious

:01:25. > :01:28.national assets and have no wish to see them opened up to commercial

:01:29. > :01:32.ventures in this manner -- open up our national parks to frackhng. We

:01:33. > :01:34.need strong assurances that the character of our national p`rks will

:01:35. > :01:38.be protected and that such `n important national instituthon is

:01:39. > :01:44.maintained for the benefit of the public. We need a cast-iron

:01:45. > :01:48.assurance from this governmdnt that fracking is not going to be allowed

:01:49. > :01:50.in our national parks puppy Hear, hear!

:01:51. > :01:57.We need more details on govdrnment funding of national parks. We need

:01:58. > :02:02.more details on what the national parks are actually planning to do

:02:03. > :02:05.with the new powers. We cannot allow this commercialisation of otr

:02:06. > :02:10.national parks by the back door The future governments and

:02:11. > :02:15.accountability of our English national parks is an absolutely

:02:16. > :02:19.massive issue. It isn't isste that deserves proper debate. It does not

:02:20. > :02:23.belong here in the cities and local government devolution bill, inserted

:02:24. > :02:28.at the 11th hour with no tile for the very weighty issues raised to

:02:29. > :02:35.have a proper discussion. I will give way. Given that nation`l parks

:02:36. > :02:41.or local authorities for thdse purposes, with the honourable lady

:02:42. > :02:44.agree that it is a deeply mhsleading red herring she rises, becatse after

:02:45. > :02:48.all and fracking matter has nothing to do with the role of local

:02:49. > :02:53.authorities of any kind. National parks or otherwise, in relation to

:02:54. > :02:56.the general power of conferdnce Said she welcomed the ability for

:02:57. > :03:00.national parks to enter into joint agreements? Example, district and

:03:01. > :03:06.county have... Precisely wh`t this is and that. She has actually acted

:03:07. > :03:14.completely unsteady in this matter. I think the honourable gentleman for

:03:15. > :03:21.his comments -- I thank. Red herrings... I'm an merely expressing

:03:22. > :03:26.the unsuitability of this Clause and application to this bill. It has

:03:27. > :03:31.been brought in at the 11th hour, with a minimum of notes is. It

:03:32. > :03:35.raises huge issues. I don't think the general public would agree with

:03:36. > :03:37.the honourable gentleman, that he worry about fracking in our national

:03:38. > :03:41.parks is a red herring. We certainly, I certainly got ` lot of

:03:42. > :03:44.correspondence about it when the government was talking about it a

:03:45. > :03:50.few weeks ago. I think we nded a proper debate. Take back thd

:03:51. > :03:55.honourable lady for given w`y. I do not think I could be more clear to

:03:56. > :04:00.the debate around fracking... Let me be clear these clauses will not be a

:04:01. > :04:03.back door to fracking. They do not affect the issue of fracking in

:04:04. > :04:07.regard to national parks. And I would add this is something that has

:04:08. > :04:10.been asked for by national parks. I would be interested if she can tell

:04:11. > :04:13.the House coming in national park authorities she had spoken to before

:04:14. > :04:17.coming to oppose this New Clause and women here today? The right

:04:18. > :04:22.honourable gentleman makes ` very good point. You have not given us

:04:23. > :04:27.time to respond correctly. H have spoken to 20 -- I haven't spoken to

:04:28. > :04:32.any because you have not given us time to consult rapidly. It is not

:04:33. > :04:37.enough time. There has been no reference made to this Clause. We

:04:38. > :04:41.are on the third reading of this bill. It has been slipped in at the

:04:42. > :04:45.11th hour. The right honour`ble gentleman is being disingentous in

:04:46. > :04:49.his comments if he seriouslx expects us to have been able to do `

:04:50. > :04:55.thorough consultation with `ll the national park authorities in

:04:56. > :04:58.England. Is basically... If that is his approach he is trying to set us

:04:59. > :05:04.up to fail. We value our national parks. And we want to make sure that

:05:05. > :05:07.we have a proper debate on the future of our national parks. That

:05:08. > :05:11.is what we are asking for your. I will give way to the honour`ble

:05:12. > :05:18.lady. Take back the honourable lady for giving way. I will say this is

:05:19. > :05:25.an issue that has been ongohng for very many months. And the issues of

:05:26. > :05:28.governance which are in the Devolution bill more widely have

:05:29. > :05:31.been a cause of enormous concern for the national parks as they try very

:05:32. > :05:35.much to get themselves into the arena of discussion. There has been

:05:36. > :05:39.a huge credit to the Ministdr that he has come up to the northdast and

:05:40. > :05:43.spoken to both North Yorkshhre and some of my colleagues in

:05:44. > :05:46.Northumberland to make sure they understand just how important this

:05:47. > :05:51.amendment, which is just an extension, will be. I hope the

:05:52. > :05:55.honourable lady will see th`t they are absolutely passionate about

:05:56. > :05:57.getting this issue... If we can get on and expand what they do. Hear,

:05:58. > :06:02.hear! I am sure the honourable lady like

:06:03. > :06:06.me does not agree with the comments that have been made to be

:06:07. > :06:09.Northumberland arcs upward to. I am sure the honourable lady wotld

:06:10. > :06:12.rather we have a proper deb`te and discussion in his house rather than

:06:13. > :06:20.this amendment, which has jtst been snuck in at the 11th hour. H will

:06:21. > :06:23.give way. Thank you very much. I understand she hasn't spoken to be

:06:24. > :06:26.national park authorities. That is not necessarily the reason we oppose

:06:27. > :06:32.this. I have spoken to be done at authority... And counsellors on the

:06:33. > :06:35.board and they will very much welcome this because they think this

:06:36. > :06:39.will allow them to be full players at the table and the devolution

:06:40. > :06:45.bill. That is so important `t the moment. I don't know what otr tally

:06:46. > :06:49.means, I remember her on thd television... This is nonsense.

:06:50. > :06:54.Opposition to opposition. The government should get with the plan

:06:55. > :06:56.your. Just because I haven't talked to national park authorities does

:06:57. > :07:03.not mean they should just vote against something in the Sotth. I

:07:04. > :07:05.happen to want this! I am stre the honourable gentleman believds that

:07:06. > :07:09.the government should get whth the plan, however we are the opposition

:07:10. > :07:13.and I am not opposing proposition's fake. I am opposing this because I

:07:14. > :07:17.think we need a proper debate. - oppositions sake. This could have

:07:18. > :07:22.been affect on our national parks that are loved and valued to the

:07:23. > :07:25.general public. I will not take any more interventions. And you've

:07:26. > :07:31.already intervened once. Thd national park authorities are one

:07:32. > :07:34.part of the equation. I havd already said that because this has been

:07:35. > :07:39.brought in at the 11th hour, that we have not had time to consult

:07:40. > :07:46.properly. Any reasonable person would want... Well you have prior

:07:47. > :07:51.knowledge of it... I am surd every reasonable person would agrde that

:07:52. > :07:55.on such an important issue we need a proper debate. The national park

:07:56. > :08:01.authorities are not the onlx stakeholders here. No, I will not.

:08:02. > :08:06.The public are the real stakeholders in this. The millions of people who

:08:07. > :08:11.use and enjoy our national parks every year should have their say.

:08:12. > :08:14.They are the stakeholders. They would not be thinking us if we allow

:08:15. > :08:18.this to get in through the back door. And I am not opposing it, nor

:08:19. > :08:23.are any of my team opposing this proposition's fake, we are opposing

:08:24. > :08:28.this because we have very sdrious concerns about the way that this

:08:29. > :08:31.Clause has been introduced `s opposition's sake. We are not going

:08:32. > :08:41.to agree to such a huge change in the government's

:08:42. > :08:47.accountability of our national parks without a proper debate... We will

:08:48. > :08:57.not go through without a proper discussion. It is totally

:08:58. > :09:00.inappropriate... Irreversible changes to our national parks should

:09:01. > :09:05.be slipped into this bill in this manner. The national park

:09:06. > :09:08.authorities are there to protect the environment for the good of the

:09:09. > :09:12.nation and for the good of these people. I call on the Secretary of

:09:13. > :09:18.State to withdraw this New Clause that does belong in this bill. -

:09:19. > :09:24.does not belong in this bill. That have a proper debate and give our

:09:25. > :09:28.stakeholders, the people, a chance to have their say. Let's not try to

:09:29. > :09:30.introduce damaging changes to our national parts by the back door

:09:31. > :09:42.Hear, hear! What a rich and delicious choice. Mr

:09:43. > :09:46.Robert Neil. Thank you Mr Speaker. That is without any doubt the least

:09:47. > :09:51.informed speech I have ever heard from a front bench in the whole of

:09:52. > :09:55.my career in the House of Commons. I am sorry to say that. To be

:09:56. > :09:59.honourable lady, but she has simply not read because and not understood

:10:00. > :10:05.what it is about. This is a Clause which expands the power of general

:10:06. > :10:14.competence, which applies to local authorities on a which her party

:10:15. > :10:16.supported when I introduced it as a minister. My right honourable

:10:17. > :10:22.friends thought it was a welcome thing as it applies to local

:10:23. > :10:25.national parks and authorithes. It does not affect planning and anyway,

:10:26. > :10:29.whatever. That is the thing that horrified me, that a front bench

:10:30. > :10:32.spokesmen from the opposition does not understand the difference

:10:33. > :10:41.between the role of a local authority, the national parks

:10:42. > :10:44.authority, and the Mac -- as opposed to planning Authority, which is not

:10:45. > :10:49.affected in the slightest. That is very worrying in terms of the

:10:50. > :10:55.approach that the opposition adopt. I'll be happy to give way. The thing

:10:56. > :11:00.that the settlement is to would not give way, he will confirm on the

:11:01. > :11:04.record that we do not have `dvanced notice of this Clause. I met with

:11:05. > :11:06.the South venture park on the 1 th of November when they made clear

:11:07. > :11:11.their support for this Clause coming forward. I have had that much time.

:11:12. > :11:14.They have had that much timd. The opposition may have been distracted

:11:15. > :11:20.with other matches, that is a whole other matter. For the record, on

:11:21. > :11:25.Sally was in... My honourable friend is right. The thing is this going

:11:26. > :11:30.back applications of fracking and licensing matters and all that is

:11:31. > :11:34.not governed by a pair of gdneral populist in the slightest. Hs Clause

:11:35. > :11:42.has no effect upon fracking of any kind. To suggest otherwise hs either

:11:43. > :11:47.willful ignorance, Ira Grey Tuesday to the honourable lady, or ` serious

:11:48. > :11:52.piece of misleading the public - Ira Grey Tuesday to the honourable

:11:53. > :11:56.lady. It gives local authorhties and national parks he same powers to

:11:57. > :12:01.deal on the same basis that County councils have. It was well lade by

:12:02. > :12:08.my honourable friend in his intervention, data labels them to

:12:09. > :12:10.devolution deals, which agahn I think the opposition has ported So

:12:11. > :12:15.so far, they are against thd power of the general public, against

:12:16. > :12:21.devolution deals and nation`l parks which they have supported. Hs set up

:12:22. > :12:29.complete on Sally, which has nothing to do with the case whatsoever. I

:12:30. > :12:32.appreciate the front bench has shuffled so many times they do not

:12:33. > :12:39.have time to read... But I will give them some idea that this is totally

:12:40. > :12:44.off the case. It is against the dilution. I am sorry. This hs a

:12:45. > :12:50.bizarre speech and eight as are approached by the opposition. - and

:12:51. > :12:53.a bizarre approach. If they are against this, they are simply

:12:54. > :12:57.unhappy. He is very generous. It does occur to me, is he aware that

:12:58. > :13:02.there has been a campaign worked up across the country about thd

:13:03. > :13:08.possibility of fracking bring up the national parks as part of some

:13:09. > :13:10.dastardly plot that the conservative government wants to introduce

:13:11. > :13:15.fracking wherever it can find in a National Guard was made that the

:13:16. > :13:19.think perhaps the response hs in some way by this campaign? H've

:13:20. > :13:25.always taken that the furthdr left you go, the greater the conspiracy

:13:26. > :13:31.berries get. I suspect that may have happened with perhaps one or two

:13:32. > :13:34.honourable exceptions on thd front bench. It has nothing ever to do

:13:35. > :13:39.with what we are about. Nothing to do with the ludicrous scare

:13:40. > :13:45.campaign. A simple amendment that was not objected to in its principal

:13:46. > :13:48.when the localism bill was brought through, is suddenly seized upon for

:13:49. > :13:52.the most bizarre hit of polhtical grants landing by a bankrupt

:13:53. > :13:56.opposition that the best thhng they can do is to find something to agree

:13:57. > :14:03.upon. It actually damages the ability. It stops the ability of the

:14:04. > :14:11.national park authority to dnter into a joint venture for ex`mple,

:14:12. > :14:13.restricting County councils. Anyone who speaks to people who have are

:14:14. > :14:17.presented areas of national parks will know that one of their concerns

:14:18. > :14:20.was the own ability to join up the service delivery between thd

:14:21. > :14:23.national parks authority, the district out so, and the Cotnty

:14:24. > :14:28.Council. I was the sort of thing that was a regular issue. This

:14:29. > :14:38.enables that to be done through a simple legal structure. It has

:14:39. > :14:41.nothing to do with... Nothing to do with the issue rating from fracking.

:14:42. > :14:45.It is a sad state when this important, but useful technhcal

:14:46. > :14:49.amendment is hijacked by ond of the more bizarre bits of political

:14:50. > :14:58.Boulevard earing I have ever seen in my time in Parliament. I will speak

:14:59. > :15:04.as chair of the all party group on national parks. I've got sole

:15:05. > :15:09.interest in this as well as Sheffield, the local authorhty in

:15:10. > :15:15.which my constituency is. One third of Sheffield is actually in the big

:15:16. > :15:23.district national part copy the Mac. Emma Concha up past divisions - may

:15:24. > :15:28.conjure up divisions, but mtch of it is very rural and open and

:15:29. > :15:33.beautiful. Let's try to deal with because before us. I understand my

:15:34. > :15:39.honourable friend's concerns about a Clause of this length being

:15:40. > :15:42.parachuted in, right at the last minute, Woodman has been many

:15:43. > :15:45.opportunities for the to have brought it forward earlier `sked

:15:46. > :15:48.when there has been many opportunities. There have bden many

:15:49. > :15:52.opportunities for the government to talk informally to my honourable

:15:53. > :15:56.friend, with could have perhaps delay the fears they may have. In

:15:57. > :16:00.the end, it is the duty of opposition to oppose and probably

:16:01. > :16:06.also to be very suspicious of a government which come forward with a

:16:07. > :16:11.4-page amendment, claiming that he has nothing but good intenthons in

:16:12. > :16:14.doing so. Of course a bit of suspicion minds around that. But if

:16:15. > :16:17.we look at what the national parks have been doing, they have been

:16:18. > :16:22.saying to us as a group, at meetings that they would actually welcome

:16:23. > :16:27.this general power of competence being extended to them. That this is

:16:28. > :16:30.an oversight that it wasn't them in the first place because I think what

:16:31. > :16:37.is being suggested is that where national park functions, whhch are

:16:38. > :16:40.similar in nature and will be exercised by local authoritx and

:16:41. > :16:46.other places, then the local authorities exercising safe

:16:47. > :16:50.functions have general power of confidence... But a national park

:16:51. > :16:55.area does not. I understand that is what the cause is doing. Evdryone

:16:56. > :16:57.that is a bit suspicious whdn fracking is around... Quite frankly

:16:58. > :17:01.many people do interest the government on this issue. Months

:17:02. > :17:05.ago, fracking got all over the place. They're hardly happy to do is

:17:06. > :17:10.copy the government somewhat brought it on themselves, those suspicions.

:17:11. > :17:16.But to give a clear statement, there is no way in which this givds any

:17:17. > :17:21.extension of powers, of planning powers or anything else which could

:17:22. > :17:26.possibly affect the issue of fracking and national parks. Of

:17:27. > :17:35.course I will, yes. I think my honourable friend for giving way.

:17:36. > :17:38.Argument is, we had no idea that this Clause was going. It is almost

:17:39. > :17:44.five pages long. Our problel is that national parks should be single

:17:45. > :17:46.mightily protecting our envhronment that's protected in our envhronment.

:17:47. > :17:51.This general power of confidence which allows them to engage in a

:17:52. > :17:54.marginal activities, reached the funding gap with the counsellor has

:17:55. > :17:58.left, does he not worried that the single-minded concentration might be

:17:59. > :18:06.lost in this search for addhtional revenue as a result of a colmercial

:18:07. > :18:12.approach? I see my honourable friend's concerns in that rdgard. On

:18:13. > :18:16.the other hand, I think that reality probably is today that many national

:18:17. > :18:20.parks actually do look at w`ys to raise revenue number to help support

:18:21. > :18:24.their budgets. I can share the comments of my honourable friend

:18:25. > :18:27.from the front bench, national parks have subjected cuts, they are

:18:28. > :18:32.fighting more difficulty to do the job that they are expected to do

:18:33. > :18:37.with the resources, so I thhnk they will turn to other ways of raising

:18:38. > :18:44.funds. That happens anyway. I am not sure Pacific league of this Clause,

:18:45. > :18:53.why is that possibility gre`ter -- specifically of this Clause? I thank

:18:54. > :18:56.the honourable member for ghving way. I would like to clarifx that

:18:57. > :18:58.this Clause has no impact on the planning matters as they wotld

:18:59. > :19:03.affect national parks copy ht has nothing to do with the issud of gas

:19:04. > :19:06.extraction or fracking. I hope that is clear enough for him and can give

:19:07. > :19:09.him some reassurance about the intention which is to delivdr on

:19:10. > :19:12.something that national parks themselves have been asking for I

:19:13. > :19:16.am aware that national parks have been asking for it. I except the

:19:17. > :19:21.Minister's statement of there. I wonder whether the Minister but

:19:22. > :19:25.think about the comments from my honourable friend on the front bench

:19:26. > :19:30.about the issue of fundraishng. And the extent to which the powdr of

:19:31. > :19:33.General conference could be used by national parks to in any wax

:19:34. > :19:36.undermine their primary purpose which is to look after the national

:19:37. > :19:40.parks, the beauty of them, the environment. Also to ensure they are

:19:41. > :19:45.a place where people can live and work as well. That is an important

:19:46. > :19:48.functions copy tag back the honourable member again. I cannot

:19:49. > :19:52.make sure that is the primary purpose that remains there. I said

:19:53. > :19:58.anything in the national parks does must be in line. Regarding `ny

:19:59. > :20:00.issues of charging, there is no legal basis for that. It is not

:20:01. > :20:05.something that we are looking to allow. I hope we may lose to a

:20:06. > :20:08.position of greater consensts on this Clause, which I think would be

:20:09. > :20:12.uncontroversial. I recognisd the concerns that honourable and right

:20:13. > :20:16.honourable members have put on record, but I think the honourable

:20:17. > :20:21.member for giving me the ch`nce to accept my interventions to put these

:20:22. > :20:24.concerns to bed. I think th`t is a helpful comment as well. As their

:20:25. > :20:28.affliction, if more discusshon could have been had across the floor

:20:29. > :20:31.before we got to this point, that might be something everyone could

:20:32. > :20:35.learn from in terms of how we are taking this forward -- as

:20:36. > :20:42.reflection. It has actually been helpful to me and I thank them for

:20:43. > :20:46.it. Order. The honourable mdmber from the forest east for sole

:20:47. > :20:52.minutes now has been poised rather like a sprinter that he's does

:20:53. > :20:59.suffer from one disadvantagd... Maybe the honourable member from the

:21:00. > :21:02.forest east beetle into the chamber a bit after desirable friend. So we

:21:03. > :21:08.will reserve this as a spechal delicacy. LAUGHTER

:21:09. > :21:12.I am extremely grateful. I never thought I was being disadvantaged by

:21:13. > :21:18.my honourable friend. LAUGHTER Delightful to hear that, th`nk you

:21:19. > :21:25.very much indeed. As you correct to point out, I have national park in

:21:26. > :21:34.North Devon. Debuted for park it is, but before I go on... -, a

:21:35. > :21:39.beautiful park it is. Mass @I do not recognise a lot of what was said. In

:21:40. > :21:45.particular, the comments th`t have been made about this having been

:21:46. > :21:50.slipped in. Insufficient tile to be too national park authoritids. - to

:21:51. > :21:54.speak to. I had no advance notice of this at all. I was first aldrted to

:21:55. > :22:00.be wording of this Clause on Thursday afternoon. In that time, I

:22:01. > :22:05.have had time to have a det`iled e-mail correspondence with the

:22:06. > :22:09.chairman of a national park... My office has spoken at great length to

:22:10. > :22:16.managers at the national Parks Authority, nationally. Two hours ago

:22:17. > :22:19.I came off the phone from a lengthy conversation with a chief executive

:22:20. > :22:27.of the national park, Doctor Nigel Stone. If I am able to do that, then

:22:28. > :22:29.I'm sure that all the results of the fire mentioned that they wotld have

:22:30. > :22:33.been able to make some cursory inquiries as to what this Clause is

:22:34. > :22:37.all about. It appears that they failed to do so. Hear, hear

:22:38. > :22:41.What I can say having spoken to those people is that it is the

:22:42. > :22:47.national park authorities and managers themselves who want this to

:22:48. > :22:52.happen. The honourable membdrs opposite, do those national park

:22:53. > :22:56.managers a great disservice by alleging some of the things that

:22:57. > :23:01.they are alleging. They are implying that in asking for this Clatse to

:23:02. > :23:05.happen, those national park managers in some way are going to usd them

:23:06. > :23:08.for nefarious purposes. Nothing could be further from the truth

:23:09. > :23:13.Again, honourable members opposite need to be careful about wh`t they

:23:14. > :23:16.are alleging our national p`rk managers are wanting to do. In my

:23:17. > :23:20.experience they have nothing but the best intentions for managing our

:23:21. > :23:28.national parks. Particularlx, this one. Which brings me onto the

:23:29. > :23:31.virtues of that park and whx this New Clause seven in particular will

:23:32. > :23:36.be so valuable. One third of the national park is in my North Devon

:23:37. > :23:43.constituency. It includes the beautiful, rugged Clothesline which

:23:44. > :23:47.provides opportunity for many ledger activities, but is very important as

:23:48. > :23:52.far as the environment and our ecosystem is concerned. In the

:23:53. > :23:56.conversations I have had with the chairman and chief executivd of

:23:57. > :24:02.Exmoor national park, they `re adamant that Exmoor in parthcular

:24:03. > :24:06.would benefit from the meastres included in New Clause seven. In

:24:07. > :24:10.particular, some specific examples as to why they believe this would be

:24:11. > :24:15.a benefit and why they do wdlcome it so much. Firstly, we have a great

:24:16. > :24:21.pressure on the provision of housing for local amenities in Exmoor and

:24:22. > :24:25.indeed other areas of North Devon. The difficulties up till now is that

:24:26. > :24:29.national park or gore have been very much hamstrung in the conversations

:24:30. > :24:35.they have been able to have with developers to ensure that

:24:36. > :24:38.arrangements can be made for local affordable housing to go forward.

:24:39. > :24:43.This is not carte blanche the Mustang that all development will be

:24:44. > :24:46.allowed -- saying that all development will be allowed. There

:24:47. > :24:50.is nothing further from this New Clause that has been proposdd that

:24:51. > :24:54.allows this to happen. The difficulty at the moment is that it

:24:55. > :24:57.is difficult for national p`rks to enter into any sort of meanhngful

:24:58. > :25:03.relationship, for instance H could not set up a joint enterprise. In

:25:04. > :25:05.particular they could not engage with the developer who was seeking

:25:06. > :25:12.to undertake some commercial activities in North Evan. -, North

:25:13. > :25:15.Evan. One example given to le is what is New Clause will allow

:25:16. > :25:19.national park authorities to do for instance is to enter into an

:25:20. > :25:23.arrangement with the developer that land for commercial activitx can

:25:24. > :25:29.remain in the ownership of the national park and they hum `

:25:30. > :25:31.therefore retain and indeed gain some financial advantage from that,

:25:32. > :25:36.which hasn't been possible tp until now. I heard from his sedentary

:25:37. > :25:40.position, the gentleman on the front bench, saying that yes and national

:25:41. > :25:44.parks want to make money. I say yes, what is wrong with that? What

:25:45. > :25:49.is wrong with national parks being able to raise funds to further do

:25:50. > :25:53.the excellent work that thex are already doing? I think that opening

:25:54. > :25:59.the commercial world in this way to be national parks can only be a good

:26:00. > :26:05.name for at three. In anothdr example, visitor attractions for it

:26:06. > :26:09.instead. We enjoy in Exmoor a large number of visitors every ye`r who

:26:10. > :26:15.come for its rugged beauty, for the coastline and the in land areas

:26:16. > :26:18.This Clause will allow national park authorities to enter into commercial

:26:19. > :26:23.arrangements to ensure more people can enjoy those visit the M`c

:26:24. > :26:28.visitor attractions. To attract a them there, to ensure that they have

:26:29. > :26:34.the best possible visitor experience. That is enormously

:26:35. > :26:39.important. When I asked the chief executive to sum up for me hn two

:26:40. > :26:41.sentences why he will welcole New Clause seven, and indeed all the

:26:42. > :26:45.national park authorities wdlcomed this, he said two things. Fhrstly,

:26:46. > :26:52.it gives national park authorities more options at a time when we are

:26:53. > :26:55.all having to save money. It gives national park authorities more

:26:56. > :27:00.options to ensure that they are viable going forward. And sdcondly,

:27:01. > :27:06.he says this will give us the power to make things happen. In a way that

:27:07. > :27:12.has not been possible up until now. This is a New Clause which H will

:27:13. > :27:17.welcome, which the heads of Exmoor national park who have had `n

:27:18. > :27:21.opportunity to speak to since Thursday in great detail, wdlcome

:27:22. > :27:24.which all other national park authority managers welcome `nd I

:27:25. > :27:28.know that they have been in conversation with the front bench

:27:29. > :27:31.here. I warmly welcome this because it is going to be good for Dxmoor

:27:32. > :27:34.and it is going to be good for the rest of our national parks. Hear,

:27:35. > :27:46.hear! Mrs figure I thank you for drawing

:27:47. > :27:49.so much attention that she put it rather late. I apologise for that. I

:27:50. > :27:53.apologise in advance that I will be deal out of it again, rather than

:27:54. > :27:58.early unfortunately for the same reason that I was late, namdly

:27:59. > :28:04.defence committee is that. But I am delighted to have the opportunity of

:28:05. > :28:08.this small window to try to reassure, the opposition front

:28:09. > :28:12.bench, and I hope they will take my reassurances seriously as I was one

:28:13. > :28:17.of only three members of my party to vote against the schema for

:28:18. > :28:28.privatizing the forest estate. Which the honourable Lady referred to in

:28:29. > :28:31.her remarks. I am not one jtst to accept on trust everything hn

:28:32. > :28:36.relation to forest, that thd government puts Florida. Having said

:28:37. > :28:40.that, I think that the government reserve a big pat on the back for

:28:41. > :28:46.this. Because, it is often said that government does not listen, and this

:28:47. > :28:51.is a classic case of the government having listened, and I will be

:28:52. > :28:54.grateful if the opposition front bench spokesman Melissa for a

:28:55. > :29:00.moment, because it is being directed at them in an attempt to be helpful.

:29:01. > :29:07.But I am trying to convey is this the fact. It is precisely bdcause,

:29:08. > :29:16.the head of the chairman of the new Forest national Park, authority a

:29:17. > :29:20.former official of the new Forest and somebody who is very highly

:29:21. > :29:25.thought of by all people who live and work in the new Forest `nd are

:29:26. > :29:29.concerned the management and protection of the new Forest. He

:29:30. > :29:34.contacted me some time ago to ask if it may be possible to persu`de the

:29:35. > :29:41.government to give get a catse of this sort into the bill at the

:29:42. > :29:47.committee stage. And sadly, that states had just passed, and I think

:29:48. > :29:51.it sells its ordinary flexibility and willingness to listen on behalf

:29:52. > :29:55.of the government in general and this Minister in particular, rather

:29:56. > :30:00.than at the support states he has managed to get this clause `nd. In

:30:01. > :30:06.reference to the job of the opposition, I fully sympathhse with

:30:07. > :30:10.the opposition front bench. It is a longer clause and it is thehr job

:30:11. > :30:15.scrutinize clauses being thdy are long or short. But particul`rly if

:30:16. > :30:19.they are long. Therefore, I would like to try to help them have

:30:20. > :30:28.assurance in the case of thhs particular clause by just rdading

:30:29. > :30:32.two brief supplied by the n`tional Parks in England themselves.

:30:33. > :30:37.Specifically for use in this debate. And this is what national P`rks in

:30:38. > :30:44.England say, national Parks England the unparalleled body for the MPA's

:30:45. > :30:47.welcomes the tabling of new clause seven by ministers and help set

:30:48. > :30:53.you, meeting me would be able to speak in support of it at the report

:30:54. > :30:57.states debate of the bill on Monday the 7th of December 2015. They then

:30:58. > :31:01.give a long list of the reasons why they support this extension of

:31:02. > :31:08.power, which are similar, they point out the powers given to comparable

:31:09. > :31:14.bodies, and they end up specifically referring to the clause in the

:31:15. > :31:18.following term. He the new clause seven follows the legislative format

:31:19. > :31:22.established for other public bodies. National Parks England support this

:31:23. > :31:27.amendment and would encourage MPs to speak in support of the support

:31:28. > :31:30.states of the bill. I do understand the difficulty in which the

:31:31. > :31:34.opposition front bench finds itself, seeing the clause of this

:31:35. > :31:39.complexity at short notice, I hope I have been able to reassure them as

:31:40. > :32:14.from the point of view of n`tional parks himself, the clause is warmly

:32:15. > :32:16.welcome the. I do not think it is a conspiracy, and I think it hs an

:32:17. > :32:18.occasion for congratulation of the front bench government, and at this

:32:19. > :32:21.particular minister for listening and being flexible enough and making

:32:22. > :32:24.a change indeed at the 11th hour. But a chance that deserves to be

:32:25. > :32:26.made, if we are to trust thd judgement of the national P`rk

:32:27. > :32:29.authorities themselves do not intend to talk for long. I merely wish to

:32:30. > :32:31.put on the record, my thanks to honourable member who contrhbuted to

:32:32. > :32:34.this part of today's discussion thank you Mr Speaker, I do not

:32:35. > :32:36.intend to talk for long. I lerely wish to put on the record, ly thanks

:32:37. > :32:43.to honourable member who contributed to this part of today's discussion I

:32:44. > :32:45.think we started at a contentious place but moved towards consensus. I

:32:46. > :32:47.like to recognise the comments particularly of those of honourable

:32:48. > :32:49.members and my right honour`ble friend who vociferous and m`king who

:32:50. > :32:51.I have exchanged corresponddnce on this matter. And having casd with

:32:52. > :32:57.who I have exchanged correspondence on this matter. And having welcomed

:32:58. > :33:02.to the attention of the govdrnment. It is welcomed by national parks

:33:03. > :33:06.that it may be welcomed by the shadow front bench and that we can

:33:07. > :33:09.move forward in a more convdntional way by a large number of honourable

:33:10. > :33:11.and right honourable member. I hope that it may be welcomed by the

:33:12. > :33:16.shadow front bench and that we can move forward in a more convdntional

:33:17. > :33:19.way for the rest of today's discussion. But, Mr Speaker, I

:33:20. > :33:21.committed the changes to thd house, I think they are welcome and

:33:22. > :33:26.important order! The question is that new clause seven be re`d a

:33:27. > :33:35.second time. Say the contrary as on the contrary stay noes. Ayes

:33:36. > :35:37.division Ayes division cleared the lobbying. -- lobby --

:35:38. > :35:44.Order! The question is the new clause seven be read a second time

:35:45. > :35:52.order! The question is the new clause seven be read a second time

:35:53. > :36:10.tell us for the Ayes tell us for the tell us for the noes.

:36:11. > :46:46.Order! Order the Ayes to thd right, 292. The noes to the left 180 the

:46:47. > :46:54.Ayes to the right, 292. The noes to the left 187. The Ayes to the right

:46:55. > :47:06.to 92. The the Ayes to the right to 92. Noes to the left 187. I think

:47:07. > :47:10.the Ayes have it. We now cole to new clause one, with which it whll be

:47:11. > :47:13.convenient to I think the Axes have it. We now come to new clause one,

:47:14. > :47:16.with which it will be convenient to consider the clauses and amdndments

:47:17. > :47:22.listed on the selection papdr new clauses and amendments listdd on the

:47:23. > :47:27.selection paper to move, new Outland. Thank you very much Mr

:47:28. > :47:29.Speaker. One of the I called Mr Graham Outland. Thank you vdry much

:47:30. > :47:40.Mr Speaker. One of the diffhculties and having on a bill such on a bill

:47:41. > :47:44.such as on the floor. Very often rather than having a detaildd debate

:47:45. > :47:47.on a particular place or a boundary is that it takes place on the floor.

:47:48. > :47:49.Very often rather than having a detailed debate on a partictlar

:47:50. > :47:52.place or a boundary issue, the committee and the Minister can say

:47:53. > :47:56.that the honourable gentlem`n made a very good point. I would take that

:47:57. > :47:59.away and talk to local authorities and issue a few words of re`ssurance

:48:00. > :48:02.the committee and the Minister can say that the honourable gentleman

:48:03. > :48:05.made a very good point. I would take that away and talk to local

:48:06. > :48:08.authorities and issue a few words of reassurance it actually becomes a

:48:09. > :48:11.much bigger issue with the such as having a bolt dividing the House

:48:12. > :48:16.disposal on the floor of thd house. Such as having a bolt dividhng the

:48:17. > :48:19.house. Beginning of the process involving devolution, which I

:48:20. > :48:21.congratulate the Secretary of State and his team for bringing forward

:48:22. > :48:23.tobeginning of the process hnvolving devolution, which I congrattlate the

:48:24. > :48:30.Secretary of State and his team for bringing forward to confrontational

:48:31. > :48:35.stuff that we seemed to enjoy so much on the floor. I think there are

:48:36. > :48:40.a number of areas will begin do something in this chamber, dven

:48:41. > :48:46.today, even this evening, even in this structure, where we nedd to

:48:47. > :48:53.seek a way Florida on a mord consensual basis. -- forward.

:48:54. > :49:00.Understand that devolution hs an organic process and it will evolve.

:49:01. > :49:04.Once these deals are concluded, they are in England at the moment, they

:49:05. > :49:08.will move forward and there will be other demands made, there whll be

:49:09. > :49:12.things that people see, that they can do what they could not do

:49:13. > :49:17.before, they will look at neighbours, who concluded ddals and

:49:18. > :49:21.say, I will would like to try a little bit of that. I think I will

:49:22. > :49:24.talk to the Secretary of St`te and the Secretary of State may well

:49:25. > :49:28.suggest to some places that there are things that another place did

:49:29. > :49:36.which you could do and could take Florida. There may be other areas

:49:37. > :49:39.also, -- forward. Where these Secretary of State and councils may

:49:40. > :49:44.say that we may have bit off more than we may have bit off more than a

:49:45. > :49:51.week pace back and let it sdttle and come forward with other proposals in

:49:52. > :49:59.the future. It is almost by definition a better and comlittee,

:50:00. > :50:04.and better done by key playdrs, the Council leaders and the minhsters

:50:05. > :50:08.themselves. Talking openly `nd transparently, and moving the

:50:09. > :50:15.process forward. I give way. I am very grateful, for the thoughtful

:50:16. > :50:18.new clause being proposed. But doesn't the honourable gentleman

:50:19. > :50:24.agree that devolution is behng driven at a pace by the Scottish

:50:25. > :50:28.agenda which means that there is really not time for the convention

:50:29. > :50:35.on the big devolution to Scotland. Is not it time for England to know

:50:36. > :50:39.that God will give so much? He talks about moving it to pace and then

:50:40. > :50:45.suggest that England should have what Scotland has. I would go with

:50:46. > :50:49.the latter of those contradhctory points that the honourable gentleman

:50:50. > :50:54.made and say that England should have everything that is being

:50:55. > :51:00.obtained by the Scottish people and the devolution bills. Particularly,

:51:01. > :51:05.in order to make the packagd is rounded out, not just the powers,

:51:06. > :51:10.but also the financial capability to make those powers real, it will come

:51:11. > :51:18.on a little later to talk about the new clause five. Which says, that we

:51:19. > :51:26.should look at, for example income tax devolution assignments, rather

:51:27. > :51:32.to England just as it pertahns at the moment to Scotland without

:51:33. > :51:36.civilization falling apart. May I say, in order to renew and

:51:37. > :51:41.strengthen the union in the way that it will need to be in the ftture

:51:42. > :51:46.decades which is as a feder`l entity when the nations of the union will

:51:47. > :51:51.work together very closely, but all have the ability to retain ` degree

:51:52. > :51:56.of income tax to make their own countries to work effectively I will

:51:57. > :52:01.be pleased to give way. I al very grateful to the honourable lember

:52:02. > :52:05.for giving way. I share his view about financial powers going with

:52:06. > :52:10.responsibilities to providing services. Does he not also `greed

:52:11. > :52:15.that there is a case for devolving responsibility for income t`x below

:52:16. > :52:20.the England level, in a Sweden for example, most local services are run

:52:21. > :52:27.to tax raised locally rather than at the national level. I'm delhghted to

:52:28. > :52:31.hear the Liberal Democrats proposing something and opposition whhch they

:52:32. > :52:36.do not propose suddenly when a key member of the Coalition govdrnment

:52:37. > :52:41.for the last five years, before they smiled too much, the Labour

:52:42. > :52:48.government before that did very little on this also. So, with my

:52:49. > :52:58.honourable friend said that they did the opposite, I obviously whll never

:52:59. > :53:04.be as disloyal as to underlhne those were marked by repeated thel on the

:53:05. > :53:09.floor. We do now... Order. The honourable gentleman would not have

:53:10. > :53:22.done and does almost forgotten days when he was a whit -- went. We all

:53:23. > :53:27.have scars and it is best ldft unturned of Mr Speaker. It could be

:53:28. > :53:29.a rather destructive process. Looking at a constructive process

:53:30. > :53:37.which has been initiated by the Secretary of State, and this current

:53:38. > :53:41.bill. There is a way forward. And there is a way, just to finhsh at

:53:42. > :53:45.the ends of the question posed by the honourable gentleman. Double

:53:46. > :53:49.devolution has been raised repeatedly by colleagues in all

:53:50. > :53:54.parts of the House and in dhfferent ways. Just to restate, it would be

:53:55. > :54:03.blue Chris, for England to go the way of Scotland where devolttion has

:54:04. > :54:11.taken place and the sucking sound that they used to hear from Mexico

:54:12. > :54:17.to the United States that wd now here in Scotland. That suckhng sound

:54:18. > :54:22.is the sucking of powers, wd do not wish to see that repeated in

:54:23. > :54:27.England. That does mean as ly right honourable friend states th`t there

:54:28. > :54:32.has to be a proper localisation of power if the devolution, bandwagon,

:54:33. > :54:39.and even Lucian is to continue. There are a number -- evolution Of

:54:40. > :54:43.things to put on the record which I would like to do. But I will not do

:54:44. > :54:48.it at length in terms of my new clause is because we have not gone

:54:49. > :54:54.around the house on that prdviously. Just to say, if we are devolving in

:54:55. > :54:58.England. If we have the balls and Scotland, if a majority of peoples

:54:59. > :55:03.votes in England do not count and perhaps ought to be made to count in

:55:04. > :55:10.a different way. If we do sde, as we are seeing an anxiety about the

:55:11. > :55:15.powers of the second chamber, if we have all of those things happening,

:55:16. > :55:19.it doesn't make sense, if wd are going to have a political and

:55:20. > :55:24.constitutional affairs select committee. I can imagine such a

:55:25. > :55:29.thing existed. If we will not have that then perhaps what makes a lot

:55:30. > :55:35.of sense is to have a steadx hum a careful citizen led conventhon which

:55:36. > :55:44.discusses all of these issuds, with party leaders commit at least to

:55:45. > :55:49.give the views of Jesus convention on the floor by draft bills. And a

:55:50. > :55:55.discussion then on where those bills could be taken as. It makes sense to

:55:56. > :56:02.discuss all of these changes with a slightly broader view among what our

:56:03. > :56:05.democracy should look like. The threats Mr Speaker are quitd

:56:06. > :56:11.considerable. Therefore, thd action we need to take should be slipped.

:56:12. > :56:19.And countering those threats and having a review of where ard

:56:20. > :56:26.democracy lies. That is what clauses one, two, three, four and fhve take

:56:27. > :56:32.up the point of there being financial powers to go alongside

:56:33. > :56:38.that. I would like to turn to I a particularly difficult question

:56:39. > :56:44.because it is very detailed. It is one of relating to amendment 27

:56:45. > :56:51.Which I know the Minister whll be talking to, but I will perh`ps try

:56:52. > :56:57.to tempt him to respond to ly view on where amendment 27 might go. I

:56:58. > :57:03.think there is a great deal of anxiety, because devolution deals

:57:04. > :57:08.are such an important thing if you run a local authority, if you care

:57:09. > :57:14.about local authority, if boundaries are possibly going to changd, is the

:57:15. > :57:21.functions are going to change, is a morality may well be imposed as part

:57:22. > :57:25.of this deal. There may be ` degree of anxiety and worry, in a certain

:57:26. > :57:34.places in the country. About the precise detail of how a devolution

:57:35. > :57:38.deal might work. So, what I would like to do is ensure that when we

:57:39. > :57:42.look at amendment 27, I unddrstand why the government has put ht

:57:43. > :57:49.forward. It doesn't make sense in the government on the terms of. The

:57:50. > :57:55.government is trying to reach a level of flexibility around

:57:56. > :58:00.devolution deals with. But there are difficulties and that there are

:58:01. > :58:07.particular difficulties arotnd Nottingham and Sheffield th`t has

:58:08. > :58:13.been discussed. All I would say is that we are at the very beghnning of

:58:14. > :58:20.a long road. It is not perfdction that we seek now, or today, it is

:58:21. > :58:27.progress. I think we can sedk progress providing that we discussed

:58:28. > :58:32.this in a consensual way. So, the Minister may wish to respond to what

:58:33. > :58:39.I'm going to say now, or hopefully if he does not, then he will after.

:58:40. > :58:43.I would like to say that I `ssured the Minister and the Secret`ry of

:58:44. > :58:46.State would agree with me that any changes in local governments enabled

:58:47. > :58:52.by this bill, must be achieved by local consensus, with relev`nt

:58:53. > :59:00.partners coming around the table to agree a negotiated position. Giving

:59:01. > :59:03.this, and I draw the Secret`ry of State attention and he went affect

:59:04. > :59:08.attention to amendment 27, on the face of it this amendment stggests

:59:09. > :59:12.that districts whose areas form a part of a county could join a

:59:13. > :59:17.different combined authoritx without the need for any negotiation,

:59:18. > :59:24.consensus, or consent by thd County Council. This would be deeply

:59:25. > :59:32.divisive, in many areas and would undermine the very consensu`l of

:59:33. > :59:36.prose at the ministerial te`m of can have consistently stated in this

:59:37. > :59:41.house. Can the Secretary of State or Minister provide the house that the

:59:42. > :59:46.amendment does not give districts of the right to walk away with out

:59:47. > :59:52.local consensus? And that any changes will be done to a

:59:53. > :59:57.negotiation between district and county facilitated if necessary by

:59:58. > :00:01.the Secretary of State. I whll grab gladly give way.

:00:02. > :00:08.I do intend to speak at gre`t length about this issue later but since

:00:09. > :00:12.he's giving an opportunity to do so I would like to be clear th`t the

:00:13. > :00:16.amendment gives any councillen including districts the perlission

:00:17. > :00:19.to request to be removed or added to a combined authority but of course

:00:20. > :00:22.my right honourable friend the Secretary of State will revhew the

:00:23. > :00:27.case but forward by the Council and make a decision whether to go for it

:00:28. > :00:32.but only after, and I can rdassure the House today this'll the case

:00:33. > :00:35.when that any such decision will only be made following constltation

:00:36. > :00:40.and negotiation with relevant parties. Where possible and in all

:00:41. > :00:43.cases we would endeavour to seek and secure that consensus which I think

:00:44. > :00:46.it's characterised many of the discussions we have at any range of

:00:47. > :00:52.places so far and what is so important underpinning the

:00:53. > :00:55.government's approach to devolution. I am sure Madam Deputy Speaker those

:00:56. > :00:57.words will have been heard throughout this chamber but also

:00:58. > :01:04.more important perhaps will have been heard by all those who care

:01:05. > :01:07.about local government, all those impositions of authority and local

:01:08. > :01:14.government and I hope very luch they take the message from this that the

:01:15. > :01:17.government and the House is keen that there should be progress on

:01:18. > :01:23.devolution but that should occur on the basis of consensus, intdraction,

:01:24. > :01:29.negotiation, facilitated by the Secretary of State and the

:01:30. > :01:32.government and I could only add on a personal basis those people who have

:01:33. > :01:38.interacted with the Secretary of State and the Minister will make

:01:39. > :01:40.their own judgements about whether the Secretary of State can be

:01:41. > :01:46.trusted on these matters as far as I'm concerned, the Secretarx of

:01:47. > :01:50.State has got us to this position on devolution and as I mentiondd

:01:51. > :01:54.earlier was not possible under the previous Coalition government and

:01:55. > :01:58.was not possible under the previous labour government. Is a perfection?

:01:59. > :02:03.No. Is a genuine progress? H hope the answer to that is most dvidently

:02:04. > :02:06.yes. I will gladly give way. I'm grateful to my honourable friend and

:02:07. > :02:12.all this consensus can sometimes feel a little bit disconcerting but

:02:13. > :02:16.I think it is a good thing. The fact that the Minister has also set the

:02:17. > :02:19.respective amendment 27 that that consensus would be achieved, this is

:02:20. > :02:25.not about particular councils having been goes or unilateral cap`bility,

:02:26. > :02:30.this is about negotiating process. That for me as I think a very

:02:31. > :02:36.important step that the Minhster has underlined and put on the rdcord. I

:02:37. > :02:40.barely believe that my honotrable friend would be anything other than

:02:41. > :02:44.consensual copied wraps known a little more in recent weeks has been

:02:45. > :02:50.on provisional wing of the Labour Party, I do feel that his innate

:02:51. > :02:55.character is that of seeking consensus and I agree very strongly

:02:56. > :03:00.as I always do that my honotrable neighbour, the Member for Nottingham

:03:01. > :03:04.East and I hope very much that colleagues throughout the UK adopt a

:03:05. > :03:11.similar view and take us forward on this issue. I am grateful to my

:03:12. > :03:13.honourable friend for giving way. On the issue of consensus if the

:03:14. > :03:20.concert of that there are w`s his that are absent from the consensus

:03:21. > :03:23.in the shape of the public who are not always involved or even aware

:03:24. > :03:31.that these kinds of dealings are going ahead and do not their voices

:03:32. > :03:36.need to be somehow captured. I realise it is difficult. I think to

:03:37. > :03:39.an extent their voices have to be captured by those who seek dlected

:03:40. > :03:44.office whether they are in this house or in the localities. But it

:03:45. > :03:49.is really part of that question around a broader democratic

:03:50. > :03:55.settlement in which devoluthon is just one part. It is essenthal that

:03:56. > :04:00.that is not just the great `nd the good as I outline in clauses 1- .

:04:01. > :04:08.Cannot just be the great thd good, it has to be the most tremendous

:04:09. > :04:11.unprecedented outreach on a citizens convention. Even way beyond anything

:04:12. > :04:18.we saw in Scotland either through the referendum campaign. All their

:04:19. > :04:24.own citizens using all the lodern techniques of social media `nd

:04:25. > :04:28.technology of polling of eldctronic polling to actually bring pdople so

:04:29. > :04:32.that they do feel ownership and my honourable friend is absolutely

:04:33. > :04:38.right. Unless we build it and and people feel the proper debate has

:04:39. > :04:42.been had been it can be strdssed and fractured when people feel that the

:04:43. > :04:51.right thing has not been done. I would argue again in a sensd back to

:04:52. > :04:54.clauses 1-4 that a very bro`d-based exercise involving public

:04:55. > :04:59.participation of an unprecedented level will be necessary to settle

:05:00. > :05:05.our democracy over not just the next four years, but in something that

:05:06. > :05:09.will hold for 100 years aftdr that. It cannot be done on the back of

:05:10. > :05:14.some of us making that decision alone. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am

:05:15. > :05:19.going to ask for your advicd on a matter of order I do not know if I'm

:05:20. > :05:24.entitled to be that in a spdech but there are a number of amendlents on

:05:25. > :05:27.the other paper about health and I wonder if you felt we should talk to

:05:28. > :05:35.those matters now or whether we should wait until an actual break?

:05:36. > :05:38.The honourable gentleman asked a perfectly reasonable question. Just

:05:39. > :05:44.for once it is a question which the chair can answer. The answer is no.

:05:45. > :05:52.The matters relating to health are in the next group of which the lead

:05:53. > :05:59.amendment is New Clause nind. So we should discuss health at th`t point

:06:00. > :06:08.and not at this point. In which case I will limit my remarks fin`lly to a

:06:09. > :06:15.brief look at the manuscript amendment 56, which bears mx name.

:06:16. > :06:22.And just to wish it well, in terms of what it seeks to do, it `ppears

:06:23. > :06:29.to me is to have a degree of flexibility and allow that organic

:06:30. > :06:34.growth and development around our devolution proposals which H think

:06:35. > :06:37.is very welcome, but equallx, the Secretary of State needs to be

:06:38. > :06:44.reassured that this process will not drag on forever and I think it has

:06:45. > :06:51.an effect amendment the mantscript amendment if I am right by putting a

:06:52. > :06:58.and date on discussion -- and date copy there's an opportunity a

:06:59. > :07:03.gateway, a window, where colleagues and other local authorities can make

:07:04. > :07:09.representations but that is not going to track on forever. There's a

:07:10. > :07:12.lot of time in which to do that and that seems very appropriate and I am

:07:13. > :07:20.very pleased on that basis to have added my name to the amendmdnt. To

:07:21. > :07:22.the manuscript amendment. There are many other areas because thhs is a

:07:23. > :07:31.very large group of amendments involving issues that I could speak

:07:32. > :07:36.on at some length in terms of 1 and 17-year-olds review of governance. I

:07:37. > :07:41.think it is going to be verx important that as we have ddveloped

:07:42. > :07:45.what are now I believe 34 or so devolution deals, there is ` lot of

:07:46. > :07:51.best practice which by definition you cannot do as you are in process.

:07:52. > :07:55.There's a lot of really good practice about what has been

:07:56. > :07:59.devolved, how it has been ddvolved, how local authorities can use their

:08:00. > :08:02.powers copied it will all bd at different levels and differdnt

:08:03. > :08:06.speeds because again devolution means people doing their own thing

:08:07. > :08:14.not one size fits all that there is certainly a place for a gathering of

:08:15. > :08:18.best practice which can be shared effectively by all of local

:08:19. > :08:23.government so that the next set of deals and the next set of btilding

:08:24. > :08:27.on the pre-existing deals c`n be done in the best way. We do not

:08:28. > :08:32.currently have an institution that can do that despite the excdllence

:08:33. > :08:37.of the officials in the dep`rtment. We do not have what local government

:08:38. > :08:41.might regard as an independdnt institution to take that forward so

:08:42. > :08:44.I would have thought the concept of having a review about this `t an

:08:45. > :08:48.appropriate moment would make a lot of sense. It may not look that way

:08:49. > :08:52.to the Secretary of State who is battling his way through a set of

:08:53. > :08:55.deals with lots of particul`r individuals who have an intdrest at

:08:56. > :09:00.the moment and that can onlx be his main priority, but it could well be

:09:01. > :09:09.that when the dust settles, having some sort of adjunct to the LGA or

:09:10. > :09:14.whatever local government cdntral government, plans to make stre that

:09:15. > :09:18.all the learning from the fhrst set of proposals can be carried onto the

:09:19. > :09:21.next set seems to make a lot of sense. With that Madam Deputy

:09:22. > :09:28.Speaker I am not wishing to use any time. I have drawn my remarks to a

:09:29. > :09:33.close, just by saying that we do have now a set of devolution deals.

:09:34. > :09:38.The Boulder is rolling forw`rd, we need to keep the momentum going and

:09:39. > :09:46.in doing that I hope that everyone in the House will wish the bill

:09:47. > :09:50.well. New Clause one, local government constitutional

:09:51. > :09:57.convention. The question is that New Clause one be read a second time.

:09:58. > :10:05.Minister. James Wharton. Th`nk you Madam Deputy Speaker. I will begin

:10:06. > :10:08.with New Clause one -New Cl`use for which proposed the establishment of

:10:09. > :10:12.a local government constitutional convention. We have the opportunity

:10:13. > :10:14.on the first day of committde to discuss these amendments and as the

:10:15. > :10:20.honourable member for Nottingham North said they include the nuts and

:10:21. > :10:22.bolts of a body put forward by the political and constitutional reform

:10:23. > :10:26.committee which he chaired hn the previous parliament and of course

:10:27. > :10:29.which he has been bringing to the House the great wealth of knowledge

:10:30. > :10:36.that he acquired from sharing during that time and his attention -- and

:10:37. > :10:42.tension has been debarred to ensure that some of that experiencd can be

:10:43. > :10:44.read by anyone who feels th`t be concept of a constitutional

:10:45. > :10:47.convention has something to recommend it to the House. H hope he

:10:48. > :10:52.feels he has been successful in that name. I am certainly enjoying the

:10:53. > :10:54.debates we have had on the hssue and recognise his tenacity and

:10:55. > :11:00.consistency in putting this case before the House. I do not feel that

:11:01. > :11:05.it is necessary to go through in detail every stage of possible

:11:06. > :11:08.effects that New Clause one has but I think it's important to rdcognise

:11:09. > :11:14.that the honourable member has a number of points which draw on that

:11:15. > :11:17.experience and which certainly inform the debate on devolution But

:11:18. > :11:20.as has been the case in previous discussions of committee st`ge of

:11:21. > :11:24.this bill, I am not yet persuaded that we should go as far as to

:11:25. > :11:27.include New Clause one at this time in the bill that we are bringing

:11:28. > :11:35.forward in the steps that wd intend to take today. I will give way.

:11:36. > :11:42.Madam Deputy Speaker what the Minister confirm that as thd talks

:11:43. > :11:46.make rapid progress concernhng Gotland's money versus the rest of

:11:47. > :11:50.the United Kingdom, it will also be an aim of the government to ensure

:11:51. > :11:56.that England has a blog arotnd which they can choose how to submht. The

:11:57. > :12:00.right honourable Amber attends me to go further than I am able to any

:12:01. > :12:05.specific context of the bill which we are discussing here todax. But

:12:06. > :12:09.again I think he has been more than averagely consistent on this point.

:12:10. > :12:13.He is very clear about his position and he has put it on the record day

:12:14. > :12:16.as he has before and I think it is welcomed that he has done so. Madam

:12:17. > :12:19.Deputy Speaker I would look to be chair for advice as to whether he

:12:20. > :12:22.would like me to not comment on the other causes in this group were time

:12:23. > :12:26.very happy to do but of course I have not heard all of the comments

:12:27. > :12:29.of the honourable members in respect to those causes. On that pohnt is

:12:30. > :12:33.the Minister would care to wait until the end of debate than with

:12:34. > :12:39.the lead of the House I would call him again. I thank you for that I

:12:40. > :12:43.think it would be appropriate and responding to comments when we have

:12:44. > :12:47.had such a productive and hdalthy debate so far. That I am able to

:12:48. > :12:49.respond to specific things honourable members they and I look

:12:50. > :12:58.forward to the opportunity of speaking again as we regressed

:12:59. > :13:08.through this stage. I want particularly to refer to government

:13:09. > :13:13.amendment 27. The proposals for combined authorities I think is a

:13:14. > :13:16.very welcome concept. It is essentially about local authorities

:13:17. > :13:22.coming together where they wish to combine their approach, thehr

:13:23. > :13:26.workings, their functions to deliver better services and hopefully

:13:27. > :13:30.greater economic growth for the residents of their areas. It is an

:13:31. > :13:36.idea that was certainly pioneered in Manchester. The one difference

:13:37. > :13:39.between Manchester and other areas we are looking at is that M`nchester

:13:40. > :13:44.has had a number of authorities who have worked together over a period

:13:45. > :13:49.of time and they happen to be those authorities which were part of the

:13:50. > :13:54.old greater Manchester Metropolitan area. They were the ten districts

:13:55. > :13:57.that formed the old greater Manchester Metropolitan County. So

:13:58. > :14:01.they have always had a sensd of being together and working together

:14:02. > :14:08.over a number of years, but they also are all single or unit`ry

:14:09. > :14:12.authorities who have the abhlity to make their own decisions about how

:14:13. > :14:16.they come together, where they come together and what they do to form

:14:17. > :14:18.the combined authorities. As a relatively simple and easy

:14:19. > :14:25.arrangement in constitution`l terms. The difficult before some

:14:26. > :14:32.areas and I'm going to refer to my own area of Sheffield on is that the

:14:33. > :14:36.constitutional arrangements pare our strikingly difficult. And Sheffield

:14:37. > :14:40.we have the four districts which used to form the old South Xorkshire

:14:41. > :14:43.Metropolitan County that worked together for varying degrees of

:14:44. > :14:49.success since the counties were abolished and they came togdther to

:14:50. > :14:55.form the Sheffield combined authorities. The same is trte to a

:14:56. > :15:00.degree as well in Leeds where you have the five districts there that

:15:01. > :15:02.used to be the West Yorkshire Metropolitan County who havd been

:15:03. > :15:08.working together as a combined authorities. There are however some

:15:09. > :15:14.differences. These differences have been recognised at different times

:15:15. > :15:18.by parties across the House. In Sheffield, there are not merely

:15:19. > :15:25.before districts of South Yorkshire, there are five other districts which

:15:26. > :15:27.are districts that formed p`rt of either Derbyshire County or

:15:28. > :15:30.Nottinghamshire County, the districts of Derbyshire Dalds,

:15:31. > :15:38.Chesterfield, North East Derbyshire, and others. They're not part of the

:15:39. > :15:42.county but are very much part of the local economy of Sheffield of the

:15:43. > :15:47.Sheffield region that travel to work areas. That has been recognhsed in a

:15:48. > :15:50.number of ways. First recognised and I went to the first meeting of

:15:51. > :15:57.council leaders between those nine councils as they are, at thd

:15:58. > :16:05.shopping centre by David Miliband when he was number two in the

:16:06. > :16:08.department copy I think he was the officer deputy at the time `ny

:16:09. > :16:11.called authority together at the time and I thought there was going

:16:12. > :16:14.to be a reaction from the other districts of outside South Xorkshire

:16:15. > :16:20.baking Sheffield big brother was going to take them over. I remember

:16:21. > :16:22.the leader saying that it is good we are involved in this becausd I know

:16:23. > :16:26.that not everyone who lives and balls over what have a job `nd balls

:16:27. > :16:30.over. Many people who work hn Sheffield and have to travel to work

:16:31. > :16:34.there and therefore what happens to Sheffield matters to us how people

:16:35. > :16:36.get their transport from balls of her to Sheffield Manchester

:16:37. > :16:41.afterwards. Was around the table having those discussions and

:16:42. > :16:44.involved in the decision-making process and I think those wdre very

:16:45. > :16:48.wise words which have stood the test of time. The last collision

:16:49. > :16:54.government took a similar approach because when they formed thdy

:16:55. > :16:59.recognise that the historic regional boundaries were not always

:17:00. > :17:02.appropriate. I know the previous Secretary of State had a thhng about

:17:03. > :17:05.regions, and I think you allost had to cross yourself out and ptt money

:17:06. > :17:08.in the square box if you mentioned them. In some respects he w`s not

:17:09. > :17:13.always right damming the regional spatial strategies for everx evil

:17:14. > :17:19.auntie planet. But never thd less I think he had a point. That the old

:17:20. > :17:23.regions do not necessarily properly represent local economies and how

:17:24. > :17:28.areas worked in day to day life One of the fundamental aspects of that

:17:29. > :17:32.is that the districts of Sotth Yorkshire were in the Yorkshire

:17:33. > :17:36.Humber region of the districts in Derbyshire and are the old Dast

:17:37. > :17:39.Midlands region and very often things did not work there bdcause

:17:40. > :17:43.the two regional developer `nd authorities did not always be to

:17:44. > :17:47.each other. That is a fundalental problem for the Sheffield rdgional

:17:48. > :17:52.economy was the last governlent recognised in creating the lets and

:17:53. > :17:55.allowing the let's to be crdated themselves across the old rdgional

:17:56. > :18:01.boundaries to reflect the trouble to work areas and the local sub

:18:02. > :18:05.regional city region economhst. So the last government recognised

:18:06. > :18:10.that. We now have a challenge that so far the districts in opposition

:18:11. > :18:15.and North Nottinghamshire and north of her shirt have been to an extent

:18:16. > :18:20.able to have it both ways -, North Derbyshire. They could still durian

:18:21. > :18:23.as districts of part of the two counties but also on constituent

:18:24. > :18:29.have of the combined authorhty in Sheffield. Ultimately I think

:18:30. > :18:35.however the districts have got to make some sort of choice. Wd are

:18:36. > :18:37.going to have an elected maxor, we have had discussions and ardent

:18:38. > :18:43.about that but we are going to have an elected mayor in the Sheffield

:18:44. > :18:46.city region. Should the people of Chesterfield or any other p`rts of

:18:47. > :18:54.those districts be able to vote for the mayor and Sheffield which is

:18:55. > :18:58.going to cover transport and to deal and be in charge of transport in

:18:59. > :19:01.that area. Or should we havd a situation where they do not vote for

:19:02. > :19:05.the mayor and the mayor therefore only covers part of the trotble to

:19:06. > :19:09.work area with his or her transport responsibilities. That seems to be a

:19:10. > :19:12.logical. We are not therefore getting the point of having a

:19:13. > :19:16.combined authority which re`lly covers the city region and the

:19:17. > :19:19.trouble to work area. Or is it possible the people of Chesterfield

:19:20. > :19:22.to not have a vote for the layor because Chesterfield does not become

:19:23. > :19:26.part of the Sheffield city region combined authority? Yet that mayor

:19:27. > :19:31.under the proposals will be involved in discussions and decision,making

:19:32. > :19:36.about economic developed matters that affect Chesterfield in the even

:19:37. > :19:39.though there in a not that ` part of the combined authority. And

:19:40. > :19:42.individual was not elected by the people of Chesterfield will have a

:19:43. > :19:46.say in what happens in Chesterfield. I do not think that it's actually a

:19:47. > :19:51.reasonable position. But ultimately what the amendment here does is to

:19:52. > :19:55.make sure that in coming to a decision about the long-terl

:19:56. > :20:01.position, about where it thdir authority wants to be, the district

:20:02. > :20:04.of North Derbyshire and North Nottinghamshire will be abld to make

:20:05. > :20:11.their own decision about whdre they think they fit. Where their future

:20:12. > :20:13.lies. Without the County cotncils having a veto over that. I `gree

:20:14. > :20:17.with my honourable friend for Nottingham North hopefully this will

:20:18. > :20:22.be done by consensus and discussion because no one wants Chesterfield to

:20:23. > :20:28.feel it is no longer part of Derbyshire County, any -- for many

:20:29. > :20:35.other purposes and... I will give way. He is making a very powerful

:20:36. > :20:39.argument and he is absolutely right about consensus. Is also right about

:20:40. > :20:42.the fact that businesses do not recognise local authority boundaries

:20:43. > :20:46.so shortly when we're talking about we must opt about devolution on the

:20:47. > :20:49.economic area rather than political areas and there is a danger that we

:20:50. > :20:59.get sucked into political areas rather than economic areas. District

:21:00. > :21:02.council that will have to go to an area you're absolutely right that in

:21:03. > :21:07.the end they should focus on the local economy and what works for the

:21:08. > :21:10.economy in terms of creating jobs and growth and to developing gills

:21:11. > :21:16.and that is absolutely right in making sure the transport lhnks are

:21:17. > :21:19.there to do that. That is why I will ask the Minister to clarify one

:21:20. > :21:22.important point. That ultim`tely there may be a decision for the

:21:23. > :21:27.Secretary of State were admhnistered to make on these matters, it may

:21:28. > :21:30.well be that the districts hn North Derbyshire North Nottinghamshire or

:21:31. > :21:32.some of them decide to go to be Sheffield city region. I hope they

:21:33. > :21:37.do because that makes econolic sense. But it is possible ndver the

:21:38. > :21:42.less bad Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire might want together

:21:43. > :21:45.and other combined authoritx and you could have been a conflict between

:21:46. > :21:48.the two decisions copy I thhnk that point as I understand it with the

:21:49. > :21:52.amendment would be up for the Secretary of State to make `

:21:53. > :21:55.decision about where the districts went in terms of which combhned

:21:56. > :22:00.authority they joined because they cannot join to. The people know they

:22:01. > :22:02.can not have a boat for two elective merits in different combined

:22:03. > :22:06.authority. I hope when he does that he'll make the decision or hndicate

:22:07. > :22:11.that the key criteria you whll use is to look at what is right in terms

:22:12. > :22:14.of the local economy the pohnt that has just been made copyright in

:22:15. > :22:17.terms of the development of skills, right in terms of the development of

:22:18. > :22:25.economic growth and right in terms of proper transport strategx for

:22:26. > :22:29.those areas. A year with thd honourable member says. We have to

:22:30. > :22:32.do what is right if devoluthon is to be successful it has to recognise

:22:33. > :22:37.those boundaries which are lore as the honourable member for your

:22:38. > :22:40.counsel said more than the political boundaries but the economic and

:22:41. > :22:43.community boundaries that local people want. The secretary of state

:22:44. > :22:47.I am sure in necrotizing wh`tever powers he has from this process when

:22:48. > :22:50.discussing this bill have concluded will look as he had throughout

:22:51. > :22:56.devolution discussions to btild that consensus to ensure that de`ls are

:22:57. > :23:02.done I will stand the test of time that. Blue that is why we'rd doing

:23:03. > :23:10.this devolution bill in the first place of course I will give way I

:23:11. > :23:13.will eat care to think that we will have the selected mass to h`ve

:23:14. > :23:18.powers to relate the police and crime commission is clearly from his

:23:19. > :23:20.example Chesterfield chose to go with Sheffield rather than

:23:21. > :23:24.Derbyshire they would lose the right to vote for the person that holds to

:23:25. > :23:27.account their police force. I am not sure the Secretary of State could

:23:28. > :23:32.take this decision solely on economic powers in a kind of

:23:33. > :23:36.situation. I have not gone down that road at present and I think very

:23:37. > :23:39.sensibly because I think thdre is an avid complication manner on the

:23:40. > :23:43.police and crime commissiondr because clearly you have currently

:23:44. > :23:47.three separate police and crime commissioners covering the Sheffield

:23:48. > :23:50.city region. One for South Yorkshire, one for Derbyshire and

:23:51. > :23:54.one for Nottinghamshire. At some point way down the line, thdre might

:23:55. > :23:59.be consideration to those issues but I think very sensibly, the leaders

:24:00. > :24:05.in the Sheffield combined atthority have decided not to incorporate the

:24:06. > :24:09.police and crime Commissiondr's powers in their devolution deal I

:24:10. > :24:12.think precisely because it would then throw up exactly the sort of

:24:13. > :24:15.further complications that the honourable member has raised and

:24:16. > :24:20.what they have done is to kdep their devolution deal to the economic

:24:21. > :24:25.transport skills and growth issues which are precisely the ones that

:24:26. > :24:28.the Secretary of State will have to be minded to look at partictlarly if

:24:29. > :24:31.there is a decision to be m`de about which combined authority thd

:24:32. > :24:37.district is going to. I would finish on the point Madam Deputy Speaker...

:24:38. > :24:40.Of course I will give way. H am grateful to my honourable friend. I

:24:41. > :24:45.am sure you'll agree with this that we in an extremely complicated

:24:46. > :24:51.country both culturally and economically. One of the thhngs that

:24:52. > :24:55.has bedeviled trying to def`ult the powers to local authorities has been

:24:56. > :25:01.searching for perfect bound`ries. The perfect boundaries do not exist

:25:02. > :25:04.copy does he agree with me that it is better to devolve rather than

:25:05. > :25:09.spend forever looking for the perfect boundaries? Absolutdly and

:25:10. > :25:20.therefore I support the principles of the bill. Having said th`t, if we

:25:21. > :25:23.can do something to improve the devolution process I think this

:25:24. > :25:27.amendment does then I think we should be looking to do that as well

:25:28. > :25:31.because I want devolution to happen but I wanted to work and I think

:25:32. > :25:36.there is a danger to be Sheffield city reason proposals withott those

:25:37. > :25:39.North divers are districts without a 2 reflection of the whole child work

:25:40. > :25:44.area that the devolution wotld not be at economically successftl as it

:25:45. > :25:47.well with those districts joining. I except in the end it is a m`tter of

:25:48. > :25:50.think that that's what this amendment does is to allow those

:25:51. > :25:53.districts to express their own view about where they think their

:25:54. > :26:00.economic future lies without pulling out of the County for services in

:26:01. > :26:05.any way and it allows that to go forward without a veto from the

:26:06. > :26:08.County or without a particular issue of economic devolution with

:26:09. > :26:11.transport powers. It makes ` lot more sense for the Sheffield city

:26:12. > :26:14.region and I think also offdrs the same opportunities for the same way

:26:15. > :26:16.forward for the West Yorkshhre combined authorities and probably

:26:17. > :26:26.for the West Midlands as well. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I

:26:27. > :26:31.should be brief. I am pleasdd to follow the chair of the seldct

:26:32. > :26:37.committee. I thought his clothing line sums up our objective here this

:26:38. > :26:43.afternoon. We want devolution to happen between it to work. H want to

:26:44. > :26:51.speak briefly to new clause eight and amendment 57 and my namd and

:26:52. > :26:57.also touched upon amendment two All of which, I think share exactly that

:26:58. > :27:01.objective. Dealing very bridfly with the question of consent and of the

:27:02. > :27:07.referendum contained in amendment two. It does seem to me that if this

:27:08. > :27:14.process is to work, it is essential that it should have the consent of

:27:15. > :27:18.the people who are going to be governed under these new

:27:19. > :27:23.structures. If the argument can be made for the new structures, and the

:27:24. > :27:29.new form of government, than the government ought to have thd

:27:30. > :27:33.self-confidence to give people a direct say of the changes which are

:27:34. > :27:39.about to be introduced. Frol a greater Manchester perspecthve. I

:27:40. > :27:42.think it is possible that the government can make a case that

:27:43. > :27:48.would persuade people that ` new arrangement should be approved in a

:27:49. > :27:53.referendum. But, the very act of withholding that opportunitx to

:27:54. > :27:58.express their will, that opportunity to show a real consent for what is

:27:59. > :28:05.being done, I think in its self sows the seeds of difficulty and this

:28:06. > :28:15.Court and makes it less likdly that the arrangements I will givd way.

:28:16. > :28:21.And his speech on the 14th of May, the chancellor said, and I puote "I

:28:22. > :28:24.will not impose this model on anyone. " As my honourable friend

:28:25. > :28:30.agree with me the best to demonstrate that local people want

:28:31. > :28:40.the newer system is to hold a referendum. Wholeheartedly. With the

:28:41. > :28:45.new clause and the amendment in my name, on the order paper, I hope

:28:46. > :28:49.that the ministers even at this late hour rule recognise that it is very

:28:50. > :28:56.much in their own interests and in the interest of the governmdnt, and

:28:57. > :29:00.entirely in the interest of the people of the combined authority

:29:01. > :29:06.areas which may face these new arrangement of government. Hn order

:29:07. > :29:12.to accept the point, especi`lly I hope the sterling work that my

:29:13. > :29:15.honourable friend the parli`mentary undersecretary did in the l`st

:29:16. > :29:20.Parliament trying to ensure that people had the opportunity to

:29:21. > :29:24.consent to the arrangements surrounding our membership with the

:29:25. > :29:35.European Union. I know that he recognised it has been entirely

:29:36. > :29:45.consistent given his consensus. New clause eight, which stands `nd my

:29:46. > :29:50.name, is really in tune with the essence of the bill. The very

:29:51. > :29:55.essence of the intentions of the government. Because, there `re very

:29:56. > :30:00.few of us, I think on either side of the house who would argue whth the

:30:01. > :30:05.proposition that it is generally better for power and decisions to be

:30:06. > :30:11.exercised as close to the pdople as possible. It is almost bettdr for

:30:12. > :30:16.the visits to be taken more locally, for spending decishons to

:30:17. > :30:23.be taken more locally. What new clause eight seeks to do is place an

:30:24. > :30:30.extra protection in the bill, safeguard, which would seek to limit

:30:31. > :30:38.the occasions in which the new legislation could be used for

:30:39. > :30:41.devolution in the wrong dirdction. It is not really devolution it is

:30:42. > :30:46.the opposite. Of the capacity which exist and the bill as it st`nds in

:30:47. > :30:53.the present. For powers to be moved up, away from the people. Away from

:30:54. > :31:00.local authorities, which current Lee Wood currently exercise powdrs to

:31:01. > :31:04.the level. It is a very moddst measure which seeks, as I w`s

:31:05. > :31:10.surprised my honourable fridnd endorses that. I was surprised at

:31:11. > :31:17.just how modest it had becole during the course of this process. Perhaps

:31:18. > :31:25.with the endless car to see from the Secretary of State. But, all that

:31:26. > :31:33.new clause eight seeks to do is ensure that that should elect the

:31:34. > :31:47.authority... To the Mayor ldvel There will be a cooling off period

:31:48. > :31:54.the local election must be held This anti-devolution before it can

:31:55. > :31:59.become permanent. I think a modest but important safeguard, I hope the

:32:00. > :32:04.ministers will accept that ht will be and their interests and hn the

:32:05. > :32:10.interest of a good government. Two incorporate that safeguard. Perhaps,

:32:11. > :32:20.most important in this group is amendment 57. I think that's it s

:32:21. > :32:26.almost naturally as a part of a coupled with the proposition for a

:32:27. > :32:30.referendum. If you do not h`ve one of them, it becomes even more

:32:31. > :32:37.important that you do have the other. If the government is not

:32:38. > :32:41.going to convulse the peopld directly on the new governmdnt

:32:42. > :32:46.arrangements that applied to them while riling a referendum, then

:32:47. > :32:50.surely it is more important that the arrangements set up an amendment 57

:32:51. > :32:54.should be incorporated with the allow local authorities, and the

:32:55. > :33:00.event that the new arrangemdnts don't work, in the interest of that

:33:01. > :33:09.local authority area to seek at a future date to leave. With ` fair

:33:10. > :33:14.distribution of both the li`bilities and the assets of the combined

:33:15. > :33:21.authority, so I have sought to ensure proper fairness. In the

:33:22. > :33:25.eventuality that the local `uthority would reach a point that it was so

:33:26. > :33:31.convinced that the new arrangements were not at its best interests. I

:33:32. > :33:38.think that would just provide, first of all the necessary reassurance to

:33:39. > :33:43.people that this is not a irrevocable step. If it does not

:33:44. > :33:48.work, there is another way. Perhaps most importantly, what it would do

:33:49. > :33:54.is place a real discipline on an elected mayor. Aid of the planet to

:33:55. > :34:00.ensure that the holder of that office would at all times, seek to

:34:01. > :34:06.behave reasonably and to reflect the interest, not just of the m`jority

:34:07. > :34:12.of the area of the May oral authority but of the whole of it.

:34:13. > :34:18.And the risk that an elected mayor may at some point in the future seek

:34:19. > :34:23.to govern in a way that is clearly contrary to the interest of anyone

:34:24. > :34:28.or any part of the accommod`tion would be massively greater hf the

:34:29. > :34:32.bill were to proceed unamended. Again, I very much hope that

:34:33. > :34:42.ministers will recognise th`t the bill will strengthen and improve the

:34:43. > :34:48.provisions and amendment 57. Thank you very much mind that the speaker.

:34:49. > :34:55.I want to speak very brieflx in support of new clause ten. @nd also

:34:56. > :35:00.very briefly a comment on alendment seven. New clause ten seeks to

:35:01. > :35:09.reinstate the provision and of the bill as brought in from the Lord

:35:10. > :35:12.allowing votes for 16 and 17-year-olds and local government

:35:13. > :35:16.elections. Madam Deputy Spe`ker I support as a matter of principle the

:35:17. > :35:20.idea of votes for 16 and 17-year-old. Rather we are talking

:35:21. > :35:26.about national elections, elections and local government, or indeed

:35:27. > :35:32.voting in a referendum. So, I supported the case for 16 and

:35:33. > :35:38.17-year-olds to vote in the Scottish referendum. I have argued the case

:35:39. > :35:46.for 16 and 17-year-olds to vote in the European referendum. It is their

:35:47. > :35:49.future ultimately we are debating. I very strongly support the c`se for

:35:50. > :35:54.16-year-old and 17-year-olds to have a say in the election of thdir local

:35:55. > :36:00.counsellor. I find a quite extraordinary that the government

:36:01. > :36:04.seeks to oppose this so strongly. I appreciate that the Secretary of

:36:05. > :36:07.State has on occasions indicated that there is a debate that he had,

:36:08. > :36:13.and there are many other occasions to explore this more fully, but how

:36:14. > :36:18.long does it have to take, what why can we not accept the princhple that

:36:19. > :36:24.16 and 17-year-old who cannot join our armed forces to defend this

:36:25. > :36:31.country, who can marry, who can indeed pay taxes on their income if

:36:32. > :36:37.they are in and work, but c`nnot have a say in how for example those

:36:38. > :36:43.taxes are raised, the extent of them and how they are applied. They ought

:36:44. > :36:49.to have rights as citizens `s the rest of us. I would urge thd

:36:50. > :36:58.government to think further on this. The point is also being madd, we

:36:59. > :37:01.often make the point about low levels of turnout amongst young

:37:02. > :37:08.people who are currently entitled to vote. We talk about low levdls of

:37:09. > :37:12.engagement in the process. H made the point in the previous ddbate on

:37:13. > :37:19.this issue, that young people are very interested in a whole range of

:37:20. > :37:24.political issues. They are dissing gays of the political process, there

:37:25. > :37:32.is no doubt about that. If we are to seek to change that. Having an

:37:33. > :37:42.opportunity to have as they would give them that regard. I thhnk 5%

:37:43. > :37:49.of 16 and 17-year-olds is indicative of a level of interest that the

:37:50. > :37:55.whole government are to recognise. I also make a point again as H did in

:37:56. > :38:01.a previous occasion that David Willis, a well-respected and former

:38:02. > :38:07.minister in the Coalition government has argued the point of a breaking

:38:08. > :38:12.of the generational contract. I think this is a really serious

:38:13. > :38:18.concern. Political parties tend to focus a lot of their attenthon on

:38:19. > :38:23.the interest of other peopld who of course tends to vote. There is a

:38:24. > :38:30.lack of attention I would argue are the interest of young peopld, and

:38:31. > :38:37.particularly the interest of 16 and 17-year-olds who have no bo`t..

:38:38. > :38:42.I'll be happy to give way. ,- vote. A few seconds ago the honourable

:38:43. > :38:46.gentleman was trying to convince the chamber that 16 and 17-year,olds

:38:47. > :38:53.should be allowed to vote bdcause they'd vote in the Scottish

:38:54. > :38:58.independence referendum. Now we are told that we are nor do bec`use they

:38:59. > :39:02.don't turn out to vote. Can he clarify which argument he would like

:39:03. > :39:04.us to accept. We saw in the Scottish referendum that if one seeks to

:39:05. > :39:11.engage with younger people, they respond. Paid part out in rdcord

:39:12. > :39:16.numbers 75% from a study th`t took place that any referendum for 1 and

:39:17. > :39:20.17-year-olds. I also made the point that there is in this country, I

:39:21. > :39:24.suspect he would probably agree a lack of engagement in the political

:39:25. > :39:29.processes as a whole of young people. It seems to me, that it is

:39:30. > :39:33.incumbent from all of us to change that. To get young people to fill as

:39:34. > :39:37.a part of the process and to participate in it. If you ghve

:39:38. > :39:42.people the right to vote at the age of 16 or 17 years old. Asserts

:39:43. > :39:51.sharpens the mind and focusds their interest because they actually have

:39:52. > :39:54.an opposite the to prospect in the clinical process. He is makhng his

:39:55. > :40:00.argument very well but I want to ask you this question. Does he think

:40:01. > :40:04.there is a place for unelected people in the House of Lords to make

:40:05. > :40:09.a decision on this or should this be reserved to the House of Colmons? I

:40:10. > :40:14.continued to argue very strongly that we should have a Democratic

:40:15. > :40:18.second chamber and we sought to achieve that during the Coalition

:40:19. > :40:25.government. Is sadly, honourable members on his side of the House -2

:40:26. > :40:32.blocks that very overdue reform I think the honourable member to my

:40:33. > :40:36.right seeks to agree with md from a sedentary position. But we have what

:40:37. > :40:41.we have and if honourable mdmbers opposite and stored in the last

:40:42. > :40:45.parliament that we still have to put up with an unelected second chamber,

:40:46. > :40:49.they have to continue to do the job as best they can. It is a rdvising

:40:50. > :40:54.chamber and I hope that thex will seek to make the argument again

:40:55. > :40:57.that 16 and 17-year-olds should have the right to vote. I hope I have

:40:58. > :41:03.responded adequately to the honourable member opposite, but

:41:04. > :41:09.David Willis made a strong case There is a break in the gendrational

:41:10. > :41:15.con tract. I believe that it is incumbent upon all of us to address

:41:16. > :41:21.this very serious issue and ensure that all political parties start to

:41:22. > :41:26.show a real interest in the interest of young people. And if 16 `nd

:41:27. > :41:30.17-year-old had a vote both at local government level and at nathonal

:41:31. > :41:33.level, there is no doubt at all that political parties would seek to

:41:34. > :41:40.focus more of their attention on the interest of those young people. I

:41:41. > :41:43.will give way. Thank you for giving way. He said at the interest of

:41:44. > :41:46.young people are not properly reflected partly because thdy did

:41:47. > :41:51.not vote. But if we give it to them, even the people who are even less

:41:52. > :41:54.likely to vote, think that hs going to change how government opdrates. I

:41:55. > :41:57.do not understand the logic. What they did not vote. But if wd give it

:41:58. > :42:00.to them, even the people who are even less likely to vote, think that

:42:01. > :42:07.is going to change how government operates. I do not understand the

:42:08. > :42:14.logic. What this this is thd arbitrary line. The current level at

:42:15. > :42:19.which people can start to vote is a arborist to cut off point. We chose

:42:20. > :42:24.to make it at the 18. My argument is that we can reduce it because people

:42:25. > :42:29.at the age of 16 and 17 do `s he rightly said have rights and can

:42:30. > :42:34.play a significant part in society door in the Armed Forces for

:42:35. > :42:40.example. Working and paying taxes on their income. Bearing. Thesd are all

:42:41. > :42:42.significant rights and responsibilities. If they h`ve

:42:43. > :42:49.rights and responsibilities, they ought to have a say in the dlection

:42:50. > :42:54.of and in the election of n`tional authorities as well. If he was

:42:55. > :42:58.charged with a serious offence, would he really wants 16 and

:42:59. > :43:02.17-year-olds serving on a jtry deciding on his guilt or innocence?

:43:03. > :43:07.I would not. I think there hs a level of maturity we are talking

:43:08. > :43:10.about. Drawing that line is an appropriate one. It did not want a

:43:11. > :43:14.16-year-old sitting on a jury deciding if you go to jail for years

:43:15. > :43:18.I suppose you don't let thel play part in the election of the

:43:19. > :43:23.government for the country. I think that is a decisive for the hssue

:43:24. > :43:29.that we are debating today. I repeat my argument, that if we are

:43:30. > :43:34.expecting 16 and 17-year-olds to be able to join the armed forcds, to

:43:35. > :43:38.pay taxes on their income, to marry, these are big responsibilithes and

:43:39. > :43:43.rights. They ought to have ` say in the election of the governmdnt,

:43:44. > :43:51.rather at national or local level rather than being subject to the

:43:52. > :43:56.imposition of... I will givd way. Some of the government membdrs and

:43:57. > :44:03.the arguments put forward bx the other side don't quite stack up

:44:04. > :44:10.Majority is not necessarily to do if you're a. People any age can be

:44:11. > :44:15.deemed as immature. I absolttely agree with the honourable mdmber.

:44:16. > :44:24.The argument opposite could be used by logical extension to denx

:44:25. > :44:31.democracy entirely. Or to ddny trial by jury. I would seek to oppose both

:44:32. > :44:34.of those logical extensions, and to make the case again for 16 `nd

:44:35. > :44:40.17-year-olds to have the right to vote. This bill today, we are

:44:41. > :44:46.talking about having a say hn the election for goodness sake of your

:44:47. > :44:49.local counsellor. If the conservative opposite is thd tube

:44:50. > :44:52.denies 16 and 17 euros with a basic right in they're own local community

:44:53. > :44:56.that I would strongly opposd them on that. I would urge the government,

:44:57. > :45:00.they say that this is an issue that deserves further discussion, I

:45:01. > :45:04.welcome that. But why can they not just get on with it a? And `ccept

:45:05. > :45:15.the principle and legislate for it today? I rise to speak to a

:45:16. > :45:23.amendment two standing in mx name. As a former counsel I want xour

:45:24. > :45:29.attention to my entry. The purpose of the amendment is clear, lainly to

:45:30. > :45:35.ensure that a referendum is held in a combined authority area bdfore any

:45:36. > :45:40.model of governance is about it -- adopted. I hope that they stpport

:45:41. > :45:43.this by putting their names to it. I know that there are a number of

:45:44. > :45:49.other two have some sympathx with it. May I thank the Secretary of

:45:50. > :45:53.State for his current understanding of my concerns, such a generous and

:45:54. > :46:01.fair approach as he is coming from across the house.

:46:02. > :46:07.I would like to extend a trhbute to my honourable friend who has handled

:46:08. > :46:13.by reservations with good htmour and more than a degree of tenachty and I

:46:14. > :46:20.think Hans is seriously -- H thank them sincerely for that. Firstly,

:46:21. > :46:24.this is a local issue of concern, given that my constituency hs part

:46:25. > :46:29.of the greater Manchester area. It has been marred from the eldcted

:46:30. > :46:32.mayor in 2017. There is, no real demand for the elected mayor in

:46:33. > :46:41.2017. There is, no real dem`nd for this animation On the contr`ry,

:46:42. > :46:44.despite my own personal skepticism that I argued in my second reading

:46:45. > :46:47.speech I am prepared to accdpt that perhaps there is some demand, and am

:46:48. > :46:52.perfectly willing to have pdople have their say as the referdnce of

:46:53. > :46:55.the reference of that they can express their views. Of course, the

:46:56. > :47:00.outcome either way is something that I would respect entirely. Although,

:47:01. > :47:04.not wishing to prejudge the outcome of such referendum, I would remind

:47:05. > :47:13.the house that directly elected mayors where every is a memory not

:47:14. > :47:20.to mention a widespread rejdction across the country in 2012. I

:47:21. > :47:23.thought the conservative party was right at the time. That marries him

:47:24. > :47:27.metropolitan areas should bd introduced if there is a referendum.

:47:28. > :47:32.The policy of holding a refdrendum was correct some years ago, I will

:47:33. > :47:36.contend that the opposite of the two have a Democratic division

:47:37. > :47:45.referendum remains equally valid today. Madam Deputy Speaker, my

:47:46. > :47:48.concern is this, I expect understandable to many colldagues

:47:49. > :47:52.who shared experience and local government, and it is this, when new

:47:53. > :48:03.models of local government `re seen to be imposed on areas. Even if

:48:04. > :48:12.Moyer is used, the danger roller copy -- did the danger will lurk.

:48:13. > :48:21.The break-up of centuries-old counties and the formation of false

:48:22. > :48:27.constructs, would aside the quake of the dinosaurs and I was not refer to

:48:28. > :48:31.anybody in this house. He whsh to take a valuable lesson from it.

:48:32. > :48:36.People should feel a sense of belonging to the area and which they

:48:37. > :48:41.live. And furthermore in thd case of this amendment, that should feel a

:48:42. > :48:43.sense of ownership. It is for that reason Madam Deputy Speaker, that I

:48:44. > :48:51.would like to see this amendment banning and my name I will give way

:48:52. > :48:54.briefly. What I'm trying to work out is what the honourable membdr is

:48:55. > :49:01.trying to achieve. The government has made it very clear that

:49:02. > :49:05.devolution deals as the goal said it will go ahead with an electdd mayor.

:49:06. > :49:08.Is a something that she is working on that at the population ttrns down

:49:09. > :49:16.the referendum and the whold dualism deal will fall? -- devolution. And

:49:17. > :49:22.is not to ensure that they fail but that the mayor is a prerequhsite to

:49:23. > :49:29.such a deal. As I dry my relarks to a close, Madam Deputy Speakdr I

:49:30. > :49:36.would like to see some in mx name been part to the bill. Thank you

:49:37. > :49:45.very much modelled Deputy Speaker. I want to go through something that

:49:46. > :49:53.was proposed today. The honourable member makes previous points, I wish

:49:54. > :50:02.to highlight new clause one, two, four, and six. The local government

:50:03. > :50:10.is entirely devolved, this Parliament has those skilled in that

:50:11. > :50:14.matter. And new clause six, he wishes to meet local councils and

:50:15. > :50:17.England equipment to the Scottish Parliament, but I feel it is not

:50:18. > :50:22.appropriate. They are not the same things. The Scottish Parlialent is a

:50:23. > :50:25.Parliament rather than being a local authorities. They are very

:50:26. > :50:33.different. I think the Arbor lady is misunderstanding the. I need to

:50:34. > :50:39.clarify. -- honourable Lady. I am not equating local authoritx with

:50:40. > :50:42.the Scottish Ottoman. I welcome the Scottish Parliament, it is one of

:50:43. > :50:51.the labour parties greatest achievement. Often without the

:50:52. > :50:54.cooperation of the SMP have created a magnificent institution. H have a

:50:55. > :51:01.degree of jealousy that the powers that have gone to Scotland puite

:51:02. > :51:07.rightly are not coming fast enough to England of us and the rest of the

:51:08. > :51:10.Union, if we we are unionists, we think the good things that can

:51:11. > :51:15.happen in a country can happen in all countries of the Union. LAUGHTER

:51:16. > :51:24.thank you very much, I'm not sure that he includes the in the

:51:25. > :51:29.statement... . I would say that because she is elected not to the

:51:30. > :51:32.union Parliament. This is not the Scottish Parliament so all of us the

:51:33. > :51:41.cure as part of the union P`rliament in Westminster. The point and a new

:51:42. > :51:53.clause five is that the imp`ct gives them the same physical... That does

:51:54. > :51:57.seem to me as if he has a comparison between the two. I am not qtite

:51:58. > :52:04.convinced that that is appropriate. New clause ten as a member from

:52:05. > :52:08.north of no-fault has so eloquently put, I think it is a sand that the

:52:09. > :52:13.government does not take thd opportunity to at least tri`l this

:52:14. > :52:21.in the local government. I think it is a worthwhile trial. It would be

:52:22. > :52:25.nice at least if they were rolling on this occasion to at least try it

:52:26. > :52:30.here. I think it is something very much worthy of examination. It has

:52:31. > :52:34.worked well in Scotland, thd 16 and 17-year-olds were given the vote,

:52:35. > :52:40.and have remained engaged. Those who are younger than 16 and 17, had a

:52:41. > :52:46.greater interest in the democratic process as a result. They p`id

:52:47. > :52:51.attention, as we said earlidr the bar has to be set somewhere. 16 I

:52:52. > :52:55.think is their reasonable place to put it. It has worked well hn

:52:56. > :53:00.Scotland. I would very much encouraged to happen here. New

:53:01. > :53:08.clause 12, it does seem reasonable to review how the NHS is trdated in

:53:09. > :53:16.the devolution deal. That sdems fairly reasonable. The honotrable

:53:17. > :53:22.member and amendment 58 and two I have a lot of sympathy for his

:53:23. > :53:28.comments. I think some of the evidence that we have heard

:53:29. > :53:34.suggested that they are not being fair to local government. I have a

:53:35. > :53:52.lot of sympathy for the point that he makes. Glasgow deal did not

:53:53. > :54:00.require any circumstance. The stage was given to that prospective

:54:01. > :54:04.committee stage. Finally, alendment number three, on the supplelentary

:54:05. > :54:13.vote system, I am not sure that the supplement to both of them hs the

:54:14. > :54:18.best system for electing anxbody. I certainly believe that the system is

:54:19. > :54:24.an ideal system in terms of a democracy. I cannot quite

:54:25. > :54:34.understand, perhaps more explanation. The majority of

:54:35. > :54:37.research suggest that that hs the fairway of electing people to any

:54:38. > :54:39.system of government. Thank you very much for your time. On this Madam

:54:40. > :54:54.Deputy Speaker. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I

:54:55. > :55:02.rise to speak to amendment 46 on the government amendment to amended 56.

:55:03. > :55:05.Though I have put my name to the amendment the original proposal came

:55:06. > :55:12.from right honourable friend the Member for Carlisle who apologises

:55:13. > :55:16.for not being here. The House will appreciate his constituency is very

:55:17. > :55:23.badly affected by the floods over the weekend to. On his behalf, Madam

:55:24. > :55:28.Deputy Speaker, the point I want to make is that this is a very modest

:55:29. > :55:33.change that gives better fldxibility both for the government and for the

:55:34. > :55:36.local immunity is. In a county where there is a clear wish for change,

:55:37. > :55:43.this can be achieved in a mtch more efficient manner, and one whthout

:55:44. > :55:50.too much delay. The amendment seeks to build on the existing legislation

:55:51. > :55:54.for changes and boundaries. Madam Deputy Speaker this is not ` radical

:55:55. > :55:57.change but it will make easher changes that both government and

:55:58. > :56:01.local people support. At my honourable friend the Member for

:56:02. > :56:06.Carlisle hopes that these changes may emerge for his own county of

:56:07. > :56:11.Cumbria where they are badlx in need and are widely supported throughout

:56:12. > :56:16.the county and could improvd local government and indeed lead to cost

:56:17. > :56:23.savings. I note that in his comments the honourable gentleman for the

:56:24. > :56:27.Member for not North spoke hn favour of this particular amendment and I

:56:28. > :56:30.hope that settlement will also be expressed by the opposition front

:56:31. > :56:35.bench and that we can procedd on this by consensus. With that Madam

:56:36. > :56:44.Deputy Speaker I hope the House can support that amendment. Thank you

:56:45. > :56:47.Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to support on the the amendments by my

:56:48. > :56:53.honourable friend the Member for Hazel Grove and to try and get more

:56:54. > :56:59.information to the Arbor lady as to why I am in favour. Let me start

:57:00. > :57:06.very briefly with referenduls where I have attached my name to `mendment

:57:07. > :57:09.to. It seems to me that there is a developing, slowly developing theory

:57:10. > :57:15.of referendums in this country that fits in with the parliament`ry

:57:16. > :57:22.democracy. That those of us who sit in this house and approve of the way

:57:23. > :57:26.our Constitution works. A great affection for the understanding that

:57:27. > :57:30.we are representatives, not delegates, that we are here to

:57:31. > :57:33.exercise sovereignty on beh`lf of the people for a five-year period

:57:34. > :57:37.before returning it to them in toto at the end of that period. That is

:57:38. > :57:43.the well-established constitutional position. But against that, I think

:57:44. > :57:48.in sympathy with that there is a developing view where referdndums

:57:49. > :57:52.are useful and moving from tseful to becoming essential. That is to do

:57:53. > :57:57.with the structures of government themselves. And the reason for that

:57:58. > :58:02.is that there is a permanency in the structures of government th`t

:58:03. > :58:08.outweighs the normal level of legislation that we deal with. It is

:58:09. > :58:11.quite right that Scotland h`d referendums on its decisions on

:58:12. > :58:14.independence and indeed on establishing a parliament in the

:58:15. > :58:19.first place, he cause those are effectively permanent decishons your

:58:20. > :58:22.reversible without the consdnt of the Scottish people. Unchangeable

:58:23. > :58:26.without a consent of the Scottish people. Likewise in Wales they have

:58:27. > :58:32.had referendums on their assembly and in Northern Ireland also. When

:58:33. > :58:38.looking at local councils and changes, if the structures `re to

:58:39. > :58:45.work, they need to go with the grain of popular consent. That authority

:58:46. > :58:51.when it is used needs to have a legitimacy and that legitim`cy is

:58:52. > :58:56.based in Democratic consent. I think where that is not given as was the

:58:57. > :58:59.case in the 1972 act, that there was a great deal of hostility to what

:59:00. > :59:07.was done because it did not meet the requirements of local peopld.

:59:08. > :59:11.Against this, evolving doctrine of referendums there is inevit`bly the

:59:12. > :59:14.government's view of referendums which I perhaps unfairly

:59:15. > :59:17.characterised as being we all have referendums that we think whll win

:59:18. > :59:21.them but if we think we will not win them it is a bit too dangerous so we

:59:22. > :59:24.will not take the risk. I think it is a pity that the government has

:59:25. > :59:30.not taken the risk with these new structures because if you look at

:59:31. > :59:33.the Mayor of London. The Maxor of London has enormous popular consent

:59:34. > :59:39.even when it was Ken Livingstone let alone now it is a great man my

:59:40. > :59:45.honourable friend the Member for Uxbridge. I give way. I am very

:59:46. > :59:48.grateful to my honourable friend at the London example is a casd in

:59:49. > :59:54.point because that system of rally was done and assented to by the

:59:55. > :59:58.population passed the referdndums. Exactly the point I was makhng and

:59:59. > :00:04.that is why there has been `ffection for the merit even for people who do

:00:05. > :00:09.not share their political dot I voted against having a Mayor for

:00:10. > :00:12.London. I thought another ther of government was quite unnecessary and

:00:13. > :00:16.we already have far too manx but because it had a referendum, the

:00:17. > :00:20.referendum was one. There is a legitimacy. The great city that I

:00:21. > :00:24.neighbour, the city of Bristol elected a mayor having decided to do

:00:25. > :00:29.so through a referendum. Thdrefore the people of Bristol have hnvested

:00:30. > :00:33.in that and given legitimacx to that stop me I cannot think of anything

:00:34. > :00:37.worse than having an elected mayor covering Somerset and I would oppose

:00:38. > :00:41.it to and nail. I think the watchwords will be Somerset will

:00:42. > :00:47.fight and Somerset be right. Of course I will give way. I stggest

:00:48. > :00:52.something that might be worse to him is that the outcome of his `mendment

:00:53. > :00:56.might not be -- might be th`t there will not be a mayor but there may

:00:57. > :01:00.still be a new combined authority with the devolved powers behng run

:01:01. > :01:03.by a sort of the era of leaders of other councils was local people will

:01:04. > :01:09.have no direct say to the policies of. If I may Madam Deputy Speaker

:01:10. > :01:12.you will indulge me momentarily I will compare that to the Cotncil of

:01:13. > :01:16.ministers and context of thd European Union with democratic

:01:17. > :01:19.legitimacy to ride from its constituent parts whereas a mayor

:01:20. > :01:24.and those without a referendum to my mind lacks that fundamental

:01:25. > :01:27.legitimacy. It is more like the president of the European

:01:28. > :01:34.commission. I think he is moving away from legitimacy by havhng a

:01:35. > :01:39.system that has not imposed -- has an imposed merit rather than one

:01:40. > :01:42.that is supported. Just to continue that debate does he not join me in

:01:43. > :01:45.having some concerns that pdople who will be taking the decision and

:01:46. > :01:49.spending that money exercishng that power will not have been eldcted for

:01:50. > :01:51.that purpose but for some vdry different position on a verx

:01:52. > :01:57.different authority that max be a very very much smaller scald. I do

:01:58. > :02:01.not accept that. I am not a big is a good advocate. I think that small

:02:02. > :02:07.can well be viewed. The be individual leaders of counchls are

:02:08. > :02:10.at the doubters of the interest of the population who has chosdn a man

:02:11. > :02:13.they are in their way like lembers of Parliament that they represent a

:02:14. > :02:19.specific area, a specific interest and can come together with combining

:02:20. > :02:24.that with others to see how decisions can be made. I sedn a lack

:02:25. > :02:27.of democracy in a group comhng together, each one of whom have an

:02:28. > :02:36.individual mandate. Indeed that can be a better Democratic mand`te than

:02:37. > :02:41.having a Mayor. I am enjoying his speech very much and followhng it

:02:42. > :02:44.closely. He may be interestdd to know and may already be aware that

:02:45. > :02:48.in greater Manchester which is really the point of origin of many

:02:49. > :02:52.of the things we are discussing today, the combined authority has

:02:53. > :02:55.actually worked and struck nearly well and those elected council

:02:56. > :02:59.leaders have worked together very well -- worked extraordinarhly well.

:03:00. > :03:05.It seems very odd to many of us that we move from the structure which is

:03:06. > :03:07.working well to which nobodx has any objections to the imposition of a

:03:08. > :03:13.completely different structtre without proper concern. I al in

:03:14. > :03:17.agreement with my horrible friend. I think that in imposing structures

:03:18. > :03:21.does not give them legitimacy, what gives them legitimacy is th`t they

:03:22. > :03:23.should go from the ground upwards. I think is of a fundamentally

:03:24. > :03:30.conservative view of how government is construct did. It is the little

:03:31. > :03:33.battalions coming together to do big things, jointly. Rather than a

:03:34. > :03:38.hierarchal system saying we know what is best for you. That hs the

:03:39. > :03:41.average of the honourable l`dy - ladies and gentlemen, the socialist

:03:42. > :03:44.approach as it is once again a Socialist party is about telling

:03:45. > :03:47.people what to do and giving them the figure to do it. Where hs the

:03:48. > :03:55.conservative illusionary approach is to allow able to come together, each

:03:56. > :03:59.one of them legitimately can do it and accept his point that combined

:04:00. > :04:04.authorities have worked by consent and do not necessarily need mayors

:04:05. > :04:09.but on them, super manors or Metro mayors put on top of them. Hf they

:04:10. > :04:13.have this done without referendum then we will be back here in 20

:04:14. > :04:17.years' time and I very much hope the honourable gentleman is still here

:04:18. > :04:22.in years' time so we can discuss these important matters. Of quest I

:04:23. > :04:30.give way to the honourable gentleman. -- of course I ghve way.

:04:31. > :04:34.I have a better chance at strviving a long number of years and H am

:04:35. > :04:41.taking a gamble year, but I have a better chance if we keep thd NHS out

:04:42. > :04:49.of his and the Tory hands! Keep the NHS public and I have a chance of

:04:50. > :04:52.making it! I do not think the prime minister had any intention of making

:04:53. > :04:54.me secretary of state for the National Health Service but now he

:04:55. > :04:57.has heard from the honourable gentleman. But we will come back to

:04:58. > :05:02.the legitimacy of these changes if they do not have referendums copy

:05:03. > :05:07.over the government may well push it through, may well order these mayors

:05:08. > :05:12.to be appointed, if there is not that validation to referendtms the

:05:13. > :05:18.component parts of these super areas will chase. They will say wd are

:05:19. > :05:22.paying taxes to pay for the centre of a city we have no real lhnk to.

:05:23. > :05:25.They will say we would rathdr have a system where we run from Whhte

:05:26. > :05:31.weren't banned by these people in the town hall year with whol we have

:05:32. > :05:36.no real link. But the referdndum lock fits with the grain of the

:05:37. > :05:41.developing referendum. Government that this country now has and will

:05:42. > :05:47.ensure that the process is lore successful in the long run. I am

:05:48. > :05:53.really think that in opposing this amendment the government is probably

:05:54. > :05:58.being short-term and I promhsed the honourable in that I would come on

:05:59. > :06:02.to the amendment and why I put my name through. I am very grateful

:06:03. > :06:06.that my honourable friend the Member for a logo for both it and had he

:06:07. > :06:11.not done so I would put on ly own motion to do this. I believd in

:06:12. > :06:15.first past the days as the fairest election system. I think yot get

:06:16. > :06:18.what you vote for rather th`n what you do not vote for. You get what

:06:19. > :06:23.you most like rather than what you least dislike. Andy fundamental

:06:24. > :06:26.problem with proportional sxstems is that nobody gets what they `ctually

:06:27. > :06:32.wanted. Everybody gets something else because the boats go off and

:06:33. > :06:37.all sorts of different directions whereas dot of course I givd way.

:06:38. > :06:42.Does the honourable gentlem`n feel that the 50% of people in Scotland

:06:43. > :06:48.who voted for non-separatist parties got what they will thought they were

:06:49. > :06:54.getting in getting only thrde members of Parliament representing

:06:55. > :06:59.50% whereas the other 50% got 5 members of Parliament? The

:07:00. > :07:03.honourable gentleman makes ly point for me that they got exactlx what

:07:04. > :07:06.they wanted. A referendum that decided they would remain p`rt of

:07:07. > :07:08.the United Kingdom and then voted champions took come here to

:07:09. > :07:13.represent the constituency by constituency that about first past

:07:14. > :07:16.the post work. I wish they had all done conservative it is a great

:07:17. > :07:22.shame they did not. By the system worked effectively to represent what

:07:23. > :07:26.most people in Scotland wanted. Sadly most people in Scotland did

:07:27. > :07:33.not want the Conservatives to have 56 MPs here. How this aberr`tion

:07:34. > :07:38.could have come about I do not know and I am sure in time it will

:07:39. > :07:45.change. But it was indeed worth in 1997. Actually the majority in each

:07:46. > :07:47.consistency where at least ` plurality and eight each

:07:48. > :07:51.constituency got exactly wh`t they voted for and not one of thd other

:07:52. > :07:54.three unionist parties in those constituencies was able to compete

:07:55. > :07:58.with that and that seems to be perfectly fair. Of coarse I give

:07:59. > :08:09.way. With the honourable melber agreed that the only reason that

:08:10. > :08:16.violent party is present is due to proportional representation from the

:08:17. > :08:19.Scottish Parliament? I think that would be untrue I would be `ccused

:08:20. > :08:23.of misleading the House. I think it has to do with the fact we have a

:08:24. > :08:26.fantastic leader of the Conservatives in Scotland and we

:08:27. > :08:28.have an inspired secretary of state and that two of them combindd to

:08:29. > :08:36.make conservatism in Scotland becoming forced. -- the comhng up

:08:37. > :08:41.for. But that is strained from the main topic -- straying as to why

:08:42. > :08:46.first past the post is a verbal system because I think it is

:08:47. > :08:51.important to have a victory for the most popular rather than thd least

:08:52. > :08:55.unpopular. It encourages thd most charismatic figures to stand, it

:08:56. > :09:00.encourages people to have a strong party affiliation to stand `nd that

:09:01. > :09:03.is important. I am not a grdat believer in having huge numbers of

:09:04. > :09:07.independence of running our great cities. I think there is a danger to

:09:08. > :09:12.that that if you take peopld outside the party system they do not have a

:09:13. > :09:16.particular badge to stand whth copy it is not clear of the outsdt what

:09:17. > :09:22.they represent other than independent. And they have no format

:09:23. > :09:27.in terms of who to get in touch with who is more senior in the political

:09:28. > :09:30.system to guide them. I am very grateful to the honourable lember

:09:31. > :09:34.for giving way and I totallx disagree with everything he is

:09:35. > :09:39.saying. Does he not think that there is a risk that with first p`st the

:09:40. > :09:45.post and local government one can end up with a complete 1-party state

:09:46. > :09:48.as has happened in some libdral Democrat councils, some conservative

:09:49. > :09:54.councils and indeed some labour councils and the result of that is a

:09:55. > :09:58.rotten borough with very poor local government and no accountabhlity at

:09:59. > :10:03.all? The right honourable gdntleman makes a very important point that

:10:04. > :10:08.having one party in office forever can create its own difficulties But

:10:09. > :10:11.I think with a mayor that is less likely to happen than actually with

:10:12. > :10:17.a local counsel with individual counsellors because a mayor stands

:10:18. > :10:20.as both a party figure and `s an independent figure. If we look at

:10:21. > :10:25.the mayoralty for London th`t is undoubtedly the case and th`t the

:10:26. > :10:29.conservative and Labour figtres have fought successfully have actually

:10:30. > :10:33.done so by being semi detached from their parties and building tp their

:10:34. > :10:38.personal following and I thhnk that would have in other places but it

:10:39. > :10:41.clarifies this and it is more straightforward if you have first

:10:42. > :10:46.past the post and whoever is the most popular Wayne's. And I also

:10:47. > :10:51.think to go back to the devdloping theory of referendums, it is what

:10:52. > :10:55.the rich people voted for btt we have a great referendum joining the

:10:56. > :11:02.cast during the Coalition government of which the honourable gentleman

:11:03. > :11:07.was a very distinguished part. In that referendum... They said they

:11:08. > :11:12.did not want the alternativd vote system, they wanted to stick to

:11:13. > :11:17.first past the post. I think for a government that has an opportunity

:11:18. > :11:20.to correct what was put in previously to go with what the

:11:21. > :11:27.electorate not only wants btt voted for, is fundamentally democratic and

:11:28. > :11:30.proper and it ties in neatlx with the original period I was dhscussing

:11:31. > :11:36.at the beginning of referendums that what is the right of the people is

:11:37. > :11:40.to decide who governs them, to decide the structures of government

:11:41. > :11:46.and how they relate to them. Then, the individual members, the mayors,

:11:47. > :11:48.the counsellors are entitled to operate the levers between dlections

:11:49. > :11:53.but how they vote, for whom they vote, for the regions for which they

:11:54. > :11:58.vote ought to be determined by referendums. We have had ond in

:11:59. > :12:02.support of first past the post, we have had one supporting a m`yor for

:12:03. > :12:06.London and it mayor for Bristol I think it is a mistake to ignore the

:12:07. > :12:10.very ghost of those votes and an error not to people the right to

:12:11. > :12:16.vote on their own instructors in future. Before I call the ndxt

:12:17. > :12:21.honourable gentleman I would just gently remind the honourabld

:12:22. > :12:27.gentleman for Bolsover I do not want to interrupt him when he was in such

:12:28. > :12:31.rhetorical form in his intervention. Matters concerning the health

:12:32. > :12:36.service come in the next group of amendments. The House very luch look

:12:37. > :12:41.forward to what he has to s`y then but that will be after we h`ve

:12:42. > :12:48.finished this group of amendments having heard Sir Edward Lee. Of

:12:49. > :12:53.course it is a pleasure to follow my honourable friend for North East

:12:54. > :13:03.Somerset with whom I normally agree. I quite understand his enthtsiasm

:13:04. > :13:07.for referendums. Which in one sense surprises me because it

:13:08. > :13:12.traditionalist like my honotrable friend for North East Somerset would

:13:13. > :13:15.normally have opposed the concept of referendums. He would have opposed

:13:16. > :13:20.it in the past because it w`s felt at this point it has been m`de many

:13:21. > :13:26.times in the House of Commons, it was a fundamentally on parlhamentary

:13:27. > :13:33.device and will often be usdd by governments which are dictatorships

:13:34. > :13:36.to actually impose extreme changes on society but I understand where my

:13:37. > :13:41.honourable friend is coming from the because in recent years refdrendums

:13:42. > :13:44.have been seen as a fundamentally conserve with a small seed force

:13:45. > :13:50.because generally the peopld vote against change. I understand his

:13:51. > :13:55.argument and why the governlent are wary of accepting any amendlent or

:13:56. > :13:59.voting a referendum because they have looked at what has happened in

:14:00. > :14:03.the past particularly in thd Northeast were the people h`d voted

:14:04. > :14:10.against change and the government allowed to charges forward `nd they

:14:11. > :14:13.fear that if there is a proposal for a referendum than usually the people

:14:14. > :14:18.will vote no. I think it's ` very interesting argument. At thd

:14:19. > :14:23.argument I want to really dwell on and stress relates to the alendment

:14:24. > :14:31.number 56 proposed by my honourable friend Berkeley and normallx I agree

:14:32. > :14:38.with him on most things but I have to say on this became a casd in the

:14:39. > :14:41.amendment concerns me. I want to make a few points to give the

:14:42. > :14:46.Minister an opportunity to reply to the sort of situation we have in

:14:47. > :14:50.Lincolnshire. My honourable friend represents northeast Lincolnshire

:14:51. > :14:56.and I represent Lincolnshird. Lincolnshire is a very consdrvative

:14:57. > :15:01.town the with a small seed County, so conservative that in the games

:15:02. > :15:05.were contingency I'm proud to represent we have only had three MPs

:15:06. > :15:08.and 90 years and all three have been conservative. Day to not like change

:15:09. > :15:15.in Lincolnshire. And what they are wary about is a notarized or voting

:15:16. > :15:20.in this amendment and I nothced right unusually the governmdnt

:15:21. > :15:24.appears to have accepted thd amendment and it is quite unusual

:15:25. > :15:28.that a backbencher comes forward with and amendment and the

:15:29. > :15:31.government excessive. What H think we are worried about in Lincolnshire

:15:32. > :15:36.and other rural constituenches as we want to concede by consent would

:15:37. > :15:41.seem to me to be an admirably conservative point of view. Normally

:15:42. > :15:45.if you proceed by consent you have to deal with the tried and tested,

:15:46. > :15:53.you have to bring things forward with you. I think many people and

:15:54. > :15:58.references are to be made bx to this of the evidence of the 1970s where

:15:59. > :16:02.ageing counties were swept `way Different enthusiasm spent, perhaps

:16:03. > :16:07.not in favour of elected maxors or referendums were unitary authorities

:16:08. > :16:13.but it was all in terms of efficiency. And we now know that

:16:14. > :16:20.this drive towards efficiency actually was fundamentally wrong and

:16:21. > :16:26.popular -- unpopular imposed Whitehall centralist ideas on what

:16:27. > :16:29.local people wanted. I see ly honourable friend who represents

:16:30. > :16:35.Beverly is here and before he created the Lucas County of

:16:36. > :16:38.Humberside -- Lucas County of Humberside destroying Lincolnshire

:16:39. > :16:45.East Yorkshire what matters. We know that is not the right appro`ch and I

:16:46. > :16:48.am not talking as a conserv`tive not just a party politician but somebody

:16:49. > :16:53.who tries to understand conservative values to concede with great caution

:16:54. > :17:02.and to take people with him in this matter. Because now elected mayors

:17:03. > :17:09.are all the rage but a few xears ago police and crime commissiondrs were

:17:10. > :17:13.all the rage. At me look at it. . Low turnout, lack of interest and

:17:14. > :17:17.not necessarily democratic accountability. In Lincolnshire we

:17:18. > :17:24.have a County Council which is generally well-run, popular, has

:17:25. > :17:28.been in place for 130 years. We have the district councils which have

:17:29. > :17:32.been in place for over 40 ydars I have to say, it is not for le to

:17:33. > :17:38.speak for local counsellors in Lincolnshire but as they cannot be

:17:39. > :17:44.in this place have only got me to say this and therefore I hope they

:17:45. > :17:51.do not mind if I do say that we do not want a solution impose on us.

:17:52. > :17:54.What worries us about this `mendment and be ready government accdptance

:17:55. > :18:01.of it is that at the moment we had the County Council and the district

:18:02. > :18:04.councils I think recognise that in terms of unitary authorities

:18:05. > :18:09.selected mayors devolution, we do not want to have a bruising battle

:18:10. > :18:15.over many years between the district councils and the County councils are

:18:16. > :18:19.doing on what should be abld -- abolished. What we really w`nt to

:18:20. > :18:22.proceed by as by consent. Wd want to get together, we are very h`ppy with

:18:23. > :18:27.ideas for the central government to devolve more powers into a County

:18:28. > :18:33.Lake Lincolnshire but we represent -- we recognise that we are not

:18:34. > :18:37.Lincolnshire Birmingham or London. We are a large and quite poor county

:18:38. > :18:43.with a low rate base, with ` very scattered population. There is no

:18:44. > :18:46.question that we could run the NHS or anything like that. We are not in

:18:47. > :18:50.that business. What we really want is to leave the present strtcture in

:18:51. > :18:55.place with district councils with counter councils and perhaps form a

:18:56. > :18:58.new body which will all be represented and onto that ndw body

:18:59. > :19:03.we would accept new powers. This is a sort of way that we want to

:19:04. > :19:07.proceed by consent. What worries me with this amendment and so luch of

:19:08. > :19:14.the discussion we have had so far is that in our rush for change and

:19:15. > :19:20.innovation we may actually `rrive Rush said on what local people and

:19:21. > :19:25.local counsellors want and date generally being sensible knowing the

:19:26. > :19:29.area want to proceed slowly, cautiously and I consent. Whth that

:19:30. > :19:32.Madam Deputy Speaker I feel I have made my argument and I will let

:19:33. > :19:41.others come in because I am sure they'll be far more than myself --

:19:42. > :19:47.far more interesting. I dis`gree with both the honourable melbers. I

:19:48. > :19:50.always thought if I should disagree with the member of North East

:19:51. > :19:55.Somerset eyes of the down and think again but in this particular case...

:19:56. > :19:58.I think there's a different case when you're selecting an individual

:19:59. > :20:03.who has quite significant powers that we should try to make sure they

:20:04. > :20:07.are present a large version of the boat that you can get from first

:20:08. > :20:12.past the post. I think that members would not want to see some dxtremist

:20:13. > :20:15.when a powerful mayoralty on some fluke election where there `re 4

:20:16. > :20:21.candidates. Ifex pact that hs unlikely but that would... H'm sure

:20:22. > :20:23.the people of France having seen their election results over the

:20:24. > :20:26.weekend are glad that when they get to their presidential electhon they

:20:27. > :20:32.have a runoff and if the front were doing on the first round th`t is to

:20:33. > :20:36.put in a non-extreme presiddnt. When selecting an individual to have our

:20:37. > :20:39.I'm not sure first past the post is the right answer and we shotld have

:20:40. > :20:44.the system currently used for London mayor and police commissiondrs where

:20:45. > :20:48.there is a runoff done throtgh the original votes to make sure that the

:20:49. > :20:54.post Matt Winston of command 50 of the vote. I also disagree whth him

:20:55. > :20:59.that actually not having eldcted mayor is the least worst bit here.

:21:00. > :21:03.If we're going devolve signhficant amounts of money and power to a new

:21:04. > :21:06.body that body needs to be accountable directly to the people

:21:07. > :21:10.and we need to actually havd people standing for that being elected for

:21:11. > :21:14.that on the basis of how thdy would use that power and the monex. I am

:21:15. > :21:18.just not convinced that when people let a leader of a district council

:21:19. > :21:21.with a small ?10 million budget which mainly does planning `nd

:21:22. > :21:25.refuse collection they would be thinking in that election that the

:21:26. > :21:29.Hardy I am voting for year or counsel which is the leader who will

:21:30. > :21:33.effectively be one of the ones with a veto over this new super body that

:21:34. > :21:38.covers in my area at least two counties. I do not think th`t is

:21:39. > :21:42.accountable to the people at all. I think it is bad for democracy and

:21:43. > :21:45.regressed recreating the police of 30 model that we do not think worked

:21:46. > :21:51.the aunt and much larger sc`le of more powers I think that wotld be a

:21:52. > :21:55.retrograde step for the accountability are considerdd that

:21:56. > :21:59.have looked people over counties. That is why I would not support that

:22:00. > :22:05.amendment. I want to speak on the amendment 56 on the amendment 5 6I'm

:22:06. > :22:07.right honourable 27. IM a stpporter of this devolution to English

:22:08. > :22:16.regions and I think the honourable member for Sheffield Southe`st may

:22:17. > :22:20.be right argument that I might Nottinghamshire and Derbyshhre we do

:22:21. > :22:24.not have a long-standing job be that people identify with and thhnk that

:22:25. > :22:27.a natural body of government I can identify with. I think we h`ve to

:22:28. > :22:31.proceed here quite carefullx and make sure we do produce the bodies

:22:32. > :22:35.of government the people do identify with and we'll say yes I can see a

:22:36. > :22:40.coherent natural fit. That hs where I look to for these decisions to be

:22:41. > :22:43.taken. I think he is right hn saying there may be some parts of North

:22:44. > :22:47.Derbyshire and Nottinghamshhre who may think they're better suhted to

:22:48. > :22:55.the Sheffield region rather than the Nottinghamshire one. I am pretty

:22:56. > :23:00.second beyond the running, not probably see that the quite firmly

:23:01. > :23:04.and painting it should be somewhere else that I think it is quite right

:23:05. > :23:09.that individual local distrhcts have the Democratic say and can say we've

:23:10. > :23:15.represent our people here. We think the right ways for us to be is in

:23:16. > :23:17.that region and if a failurd but should happen there should not be a

:23:18. > :23:22.Beta of command higher authorities that comes as a different

:23:23. > :23:26.geography. Clearly in exerchsing that right and making that decision

:23:27. > :23:29.the Secretary of State should try to achieve consensus and think of the

:23:30. > :23:32.broader picture and make sure we are not achieving some strange `nd

:23:33. > :23:38.erratic situation where the people of Bolsover if they chose to go into

:23:39. > :23:41.Sheffield certainly have no say of their own police force becatse that

:23:42. > :23:46.is now handled by the electdd mayor I think we need to proceed with

:23:47. > :23:49.caution on what powers go to these mayors. If they're going to be

:23:50. > :23:54.mainly economic powers and dconomic interest perhaps they could

:23:55. > :23:56.transport and not let the elected mayors become the replacement for

:23:57. > :24:00.the police commissioner if `re going to area their job. I think that

:24:01. > :24:06.could be a dangerous gap and even though I know that they're puite

:24:07. > :24:09.keen to replacing the PCs sdes I am not sure how you would elect one

:24:10. > :24:15.person to hold to account two different police forces copx that

:24:16. > :24:24.seems a bit strange on holdhng tube different bodies to account on. .

:24:25. > :24:29.I think everything about thd geography we ought to have ` proper

:24:30. > :24:33.thought and not just rely on some historic centuries-old setup of

:24:34. > :24:37.government bounties that perhaps do not make sense and the modern world

:24:38. > :24:40.-- boundaries. I think it is important that we step back and

:24:41. > :24:43.think what does a good systdm of local government look like hf we are

:24:44. > :24:46.going to have this extra te`rs because I am not sure many of our

:24:47. > :24:49.constituents will think this or having four different tiers of

:24:50. > :24:56.government. My constituents is already elect 21 downtowns whereas

:24:57. > :24:59.45 lower towns as they like to County Council to the Countx Council

:25:00. > :25:04.with more than 60 counsellors. I'm not sure there will too fancy

:25:05. > :25:07.electing a new mayor and another tier and paying for that as well.

:25:08. > :25:12.I'm not sure many of them understand very well what functions all those

:25:13. > :25:15.pre-tears already have and what the fourth one on top ado and they

:25:16. > :25:22.probably think that all those four have some role largely becatse that

:25:23. > :25:26.features quite large in most of the elections that we will see. I think

:25:27. > :25:31.if we're going to have this devolution we ought to step back and

:25:32. > :25:34.think actually is that a sustainable effective and efficient system of

:25:35. > :25:36.local government that our constituents can understand and

:25:37. > :25:41.support or should we take this as the driver to have a look at

:25:42. > :25:44.changing that system or havd having unitary councils with the ndw

:25:45. > :25:49.elected mayor for a larger region and that is why I do welcomd

:25:50. > :25:52.amendment 56 that I put my name to which would make it easier where

:25:53. > :25:56.there is some level of consdnsus in the area to have those new tnits

:25:57. > :25:59.being created. But it would not allow one small district across to

:26:00. > :26:04.counties to block the whole thing and reject having unitary atthority

:26:05. > :26:08.if there was a consensus th`t should be what should be proceeded with.

:26:09. > :26:12.I'm not sure of the directing of this amendment allowing Secretary of

:26:13. > :26:15.State to create only one cotnsel it seems a bit perverse and Derbyshire

:26:16. > :26:20.for one of the nine districts to be in favour and the County Cotncil are

:26:21. > :26:23.on the other eight districts to be against and Secretary of St`te

:26:24. > :26:26.having that power. I would certainly say that where the majority of

:26:27. > :26:32.districts and the County Cotncil are in favour or when the Secretary of

:26:33. > :26:35.State could use that power to create unitary authorities which I think

:26:36. > :26:37.would be more efficient cost effective and overall more

:26:38. > :26:43.effective. I do welcome that would appear to be excepting a minute 56

:26:44. > :26:45.with that change. Perhaps m`ybe in the Lord that they do accept it I

:26:46. > :26:53.can only think of one authority consenting have quite the rhght

:26:54. > :26:59.model... Other than that I will commend amendment 56 to the House

:27:00. > :27:05.Madam Deputy Speaker I have to say I am very concerned about amendment 36

:27:06. > :27:10.and that the government's acceptance of the. Object subject to the

:27:11. > :27:17.amendment a. The bridge is why I am concerned go back sometime. 20 years

:27:18. > :27:21.ago, I was a member of the local governments commission during the

:27:22. > :27:26.period of privileged to be ` member of this house. I was serving on that

:27:27. > :27:30.local commission. That commhssion was looking at structures of local

:27:31. > :27:36.government and England. It was looking at what the councils should

:27:37. > :27:44.switch from being to tier to begin to treat. The method we adopted in

:27:45. > :27:48.those days was to invite local people to submit evidence to invite

:27:49. > :27:53.the local councils to submit evidence and to hold public

:27:54. > :27:58.inquiries and hearings into that evidence. It was very much `

:27:59. > :28:05.bottom-up process. It was something that was decided by consensts in the

:28:06. > :28:09.local government commissiondd and then the local Government commission

:28:10. > :28:15.and of submit recommendations to the government which were abducted by

:28:16. > :28:21.Parliament if they involve changes. -- adopted. In the area of the

:28:22. > :28:30.country that I represent now, there was a very lively debate whdther or

:28:31. > :28:36.not a pool should become a tnit terry authorities. And whether or

:28:37. > :28:40.not the Dorset County Counchl should remain a County Council with a

:28:41. > :28:46.tier system operating in thd rest of the county. In the end, what was

:28:47. > :28:53.agreed was that that pulled will become a separate authority, ..

:28:54. > :28:59.That the whole of Iraq remahnder of the County Council would be to tear

:29:00. > :29:03.with Dorset County Council Dublin with demand services such as

:29:04. > :29:11.education and social servicds. And the borough councils dealing with

:29:12. > :29:15.services which were closest to the people. Madam Deputy Speaker, and

:29:16. > :29:24.nothing that has happened in the 20 years since then leads me to believe

:29:25. > :29:30.that people have Dorset are other than content with the current

:29:31. > :29:35.arrangements. I was told whdn there is all this talk about the

:29:36. > :29:42.possibilities of change, behng forced to use the government, I was

:29:43. > :29:45.assured by my friend that nothing would happen to change things in

:29:46. > :29:52.Dorset unless it had the wholehearted consent of the

:29:53. > :29:59.Council's concerned. On that basis, when there was a half-baked proposal

:30:00. > :30:06.which can forward pool, with a on what to try and set up a new

:30:07. > :30:10.combined unit Terry of authority incorporating Ishtar said in a,

:30:11. > :30:17.obviously that proposal would not have worked because Dorset County

:30:18. > :30:22.Council were saying with yot not think that is going to work because

:30:23. > :30:29.it would mean a part of our area, which enables us to be able to

:30:30. > :30:40.provide good services, would be taking away from us and no longer be

:30:41. > :30:46.included Dorset County. The line was no need to worry, because nothing is

:30:47. > :30:49.going to be imposed from thd centre. This is very much something that is

:30:50. > :30:56.only going to come up from the bottom. That is what we werd up

:30:57. > :31:00.until today. We been had thhs amendment 56 which was put down on

:31:01. > :31:04.the order paper, I I assumed they had not gotten the support of the

:31:05. > :31:10.government, and had not applied by mind into thinking we would have to

:31:11. > :31:14.oppose the. I assumed it was going to be opposed by the governlent

:31:15. > :31:17.Very much to my amazement, H find there is a manuscript amendlent

:31:18. > :31:21.would suggest that the government is accepting this amendment. Albeit on

:31:22. > :31:26.the basis that it would onlx be operative until the 31st of March,

:31:27. > :31:33.2019 what's happened to coincide with the end of current perhod for

:31:34. > :31:41.District Council. All the dhstrict councils which were collectdd in the

:31:42. > :31:46.last May elections, would expire at the end of March 2019. That is the

:31:47. > :31:51.amendment that the government has. We have not got any details on the

:31:52. > :31:56.government has to the criteria that they are going to use in order to

:31:57. > :32:01.exercise the very significant power which they will have to intdrvene

:32:02. > :32:11.against the wishes of one or more of the local councils in Dorset. Of

:32:12. > :32:16.course I give Wade. While the Minister is listening. It would be

:32:17. > :32:20.opened to minister to intervene to make clear that in a situathon like

:32:21. > :32:28.Lincolnshire in Dorset, that we should only proceed to power by

:32:29. > :32:35.consent. Of course it would be. I understand that I have been told

:32:36. > :32:44.privately that the government is neutral. They have no agend` to try

:32:45. > :32:51.and create a unitary authorhty. I thank the Honorable member. And take

:32:52. > :32:54.the opportunity has presentdd to confirm it is indeed the intention

:32:55. > :32:57.of the of the government to build a consensus. When I got to impose

:32:58. > :33:02.changes on every it that do not want to. The idea that we have bden

:33:03. > :33:08.persuaded by the amendment that has been brought forward the error and

:33:09. > :33:11.should not be prevented frol being part of devolution bills. Wdre

:33:12. > :33:16.looking to build that consensus and not impose Which have the

:33:17. > :33:23.flexibility to make sure we can deliver the deals deals that local

:33:24. > :33:29.people want. Cash he explained how he is going to deal with thd

:33:30. > :33:33.situation, for example in Dorset? You have the County Council, wishing

:33:34. > :33:39.to retain control over the `rea at which it currently governs. If one

:33:40. > :33:51.or more of the Council, the district councils in that area, wishdd to

:33:52. > :33:54.enter into a unitary arrangdment, who is going to prevail? Is going to

:33:55. > :34:03.prevail? Isn't going to be Council going to be the will of the borough

:34:04. > :34:08.councils? And I have in my constituency at number of

:34:09. > :34:13.counsellors who are both on the borough and County councils. To

:34:14. > :34:19.which group is the government going to pay heed? Is the goal ard they

:34:20. > :34:23.going to say it because there is no agreement, there cannot be `ny

:34:24. > :34:30.progress? Which I understood was the government's policy. Of course we

:34:31. > :34:38.want to find that consensus. As tempted as I am to discussing it? ,

:34:39. > :34:44.there is no... Any sort of rule that would allow districts to determine

:34:45. > :34:50.what happens. We want to talk with local areas, the representation from

:34:51. > :34:53.those every is an of course for Honorable members representhng those

:34:54. > :34:56.every is to build a consensts to how was the best go forward with this

:34:57. > :35:11.process. Secretary of State will apply tested this. I am gre`t. He --

:35:12. > :35:15.great. He a few months ago, it was very much this is going to be a

:35:16. > :35:20.bottom-up, driven by a local council. If they want to ch`nge

:35:21. > :35:30.then they would be able to. Now we're told that nobody will be able

:35:31. > :35:33.to... To ultimately be the government that will beside this.

:35:34. > :35:40.This is a very significant change of government policy. Announced and a

:35:41. > :35:48.form of a manuscript amendmdnt to amendment 56. I think it is terribly

:35:49. > :35:59.important. What I think my friend is looking for, is an assurancd that if

:36:00. > :36:06.either Dorset County, Countx Council does not want changed, effectively

:36:07. > :36:12.that would be a veto. The s`me would apply to Lincolnshire and rtle

:36:13. > :36:14.areas. Change would only first aid democracy by consensus. With the

:36:15. > :36:23.Minister said he was the perceived by consensus, I understand ht -

:36:24. > :36:29.that is the situation that hs important. I'm grateful for his

:36:30. > :36:39.intervention. Before his suggestion that we might be able to find the...

:36:40. > :36:45.And a minister who I knows hs doing his best to try and give us

:36:46. > :36:52.assurances, which is going to enable us to support amendment 56 rather

:36:53. > :37:03.than dividing the House on `. I m happy to give Wade once mord. -

:37:04. > :37:11.give way. . I think the Honorable member for giving way. I'll talk

:37:12. > :37:16.more about this issue in my comments later. I think it is import`nt to be

:37:17. > :37:19.clear that this is not about a veto, but we want to get its abilhty to

:37:20. > :37:23.build a consensus. The intention of big of the government is to work

:37:24. > :37:28.with local areas for economhcally sensible areas of devolution would

:37:29. > :37:33.structures in the film that allow those things to be realised. It is

:37:34. > :37:37.not about getting one area ` veto or another, or taking a mandatdd

:37:38. > :37:40.approach, about the place ability to deliver what and areas need and that

:37:41. > :37:43.would be realised. It is not about getting one area a veto or `nother,

:37:44. > :37:45.or taking a mandated approach, about the place ability to deliver what

:37:46. > :37:48.and areas need and that with the amendment allows and why we it so

:37:49. > :37:54.closely to see it discussed further and be a part of the bill. H am

:37:55. > :38:03.afraid that what he is saying goes against the position which we've

:38:04. > :38:06.already established. Namely that the government was not pushing `ny of

:38:07. > :38:12.this agenda, that this was `n agenda which could be promoted by

:38:13. > :38:18.individual councils if they wanted to and if they had the agredment of

:38:19. > :38:23.the neighbouring councils. Now we are told that no longer depdnds on

:38:24. > :38:29.the agreement of their neighbouring councils, but acted that thd

:38:30. > :38:38.government will intervene if they think it... I think that is what the

:38:39. > :38:47.Minister is saying. I had completely different proposition than what we

:38:48. > :38:51.had before. This is a sensational change and this whole bill because

:38:52. > :38:56.up until now we have been told that the government is enabling councils

:38:57. > :39:05.to do what they want. One of the differences is of this if this goes

:39:06. > :39:13.through, and that between now and 2019, and County successes Dorset

:39:14. > :39:17.instead of getting on-air branding local services for local people the

:39:18. > :39:24.counsellors and their officdrs are going to be preoccupied with our

:39:25. > :39:28.doing the task of new structures. Structures which I have alrdady said

:39:29. > :39:35.were established 20 years ago and have not been criticised at all It

:39:36. > :39:41.means that a small councils such as Christchurch Marriott... Borough,

:39:42. > :39:48.that counsel threatened with losing its independence. Likewise, each

:39:49. > :39:54.Dorset council is threatened with losing its independence. Ultimately

:39:55. > :39:56.at the bottom -- whelm of the government. It is all done

:39:57. > :40:02.supposedly in the name of devolution. Actually, a district

:40:03. > :40:08.councils is a very highly ddvolved body. It is close to the local

:40:09. > :40:12.people. It is decided those all-important planning applhcations

:40:13. > :40:18.in accordance with the wishds of the local two. The sink my Honorable

:40:19. > :40:25.friend in his place, he will will note that one of the region that a

:40:26. > :40:31.born world has a great blocks on us. It's because they have had a

:40:32. > :40:34.different planning policy from Christ Church, which has an equally

:40:35. > :40:41.delightful. But that has not actually erected by having these

:40:42. > :40:44.enormous entire blocks. That is why high cliff is still a very

:40:45. > :40:59.attractive place was to go `nd take a holiday. And other places I think

:41:00. > :41:04.our gems on the south coast. He is making it his usual

:41:05. > :41:07.characteristically robust speech. What I am slightly concerned by it

:41:08. > :41:12.that my Honorable friend is not take into account the fact that there is

:41:13. > :41:15.a very good photograph of the four leaders of the four local

:41:16. > :41:21.authorities he is reviewing to check in Canada by wondering to explore,

:41:22. > :41:24.together in a new formation. Localism is what the governlent is

:41:25. > :41:29.doing. Providing them with the opportunity to do that. To localism

:41:30. > :41:39.would be for us to let them get on with it. -- to localism. Thd

:41:40. > :41:43.opposition leader and pulls that he got it was very important that this

:41:44. > :41:49.issue should be dealt with by the people of a pool and there should be

:41:50. > :41:55.a local referendum. That was a pooh-poohed by leaders of pool and

:41:56. > :41:59.born with. My Honorable fridnd refers to leaders, but the problem

:42:00. > :42:05.is not the latest, but ensuring that the leaders reflecting Ackldy really

:42:06. > :42:10.the wishes of the people. At the moment, they have no plans `t all to

:42:11. > :42:17.consult properly the people of Christchurch or is Dorset. They are

:42:18. > :42:23.bringing in to some discusshons and those discussions, if you they are

:42:24. > :42:29.given the act of momentum that the Minister wants to give them by

:42:30. > :42:34.accepting amendment 56, those discussions are going to crdate an

:42:35. > :42:42.enormous amount of anxiety `mongst people in my area. Christchtrch

:42:43. > :42:48.very recently, had a local plant inquiry. They have now got ` new

:42:49. > :42:54.local plan and under that plan they are able to preserve most of the

:42:55. > :42:59.green belts and the area. Mx constituents are very generous -

:43:00. > :43:07.the jealous of the green belt. Why has it that cool want to get their

:43:08. > :43:12.hands on the land and each Dorset so that they can impose their planning

:43:13. > :43:18.policy on the green belt and expand outwards into our area. That is the

:43:19. > :43:25.perception of my constituents and that is why they are very concerned.

:43:26. > :43:28.Up until today I have been `ble to say don't worry, this is not going

:43:29. > :43:34.to make any progress becausd I know for a fact that the Dorset County

:43:35. > :43:40.Council, and the gods... Has an idea that they should have two boroughs

:43:41. > :43:46.within their 2-tier system, taking away from them. It would make Dorset

:43:47. > :43:51.County Council less valuabld. I assumed up at about that will give a

:43:52. > :43:55.Dorset County Council at veto and then that these half-baked hdeas

:43:56. > :44:02.would be making any progress. I give way. It is very difficult, `nd

:44:03. > :44:09.pretty clear that the government making decisions is like a bad

:44:10. > :44:15.package job. I actually livdd and represent them every a that is

:44:16. > :44:22.involved in the tool of these structures. One is dominated by a

:44:23. > :44:31.and before joining areas. Councils like Barnsley. That is now

:44:32. > :44:36.attracting the attention of at least three, maybe for and North

:44:37. > :44:44.Derbyshire, Chesterville, and possibly Derbyshire Dales. However,

:44:45. > :44:49.on top of that there is a P2 into power structures, which covdrs not

:44:50. > :44:56.to and Derbyshire. The real problem for this minister and it is time

:44:57. > :44:59.that he got to his feet, thd secretary of state, and explain

:45:00. > :45:05.precisely what will happen hf Sheffield demands demand thd powers

:45:06. > :45:12.that currently exists with the Derbyshire County Council, namely

:45:13. > :45:18.around transport and take it away from the county, what exactly will

:45:19. > :45:22.happen and those circumstances? Here you have two power structurds, both

:45:23. > :45:32.vying for the same thing and although Dorset is complicated, this

:45:33. > :45:35.is even worse. Madam Deputy Speaker, I instinctively think that the

:45:36. > :45:41.gentleman is right. I do not say that only because I have on my wall

:45:42. > :45:45.at home at a picture of his constituency, which was presented to

:45:46. > :45:52.me by his counsel when I was a good local government minister. H think

:45:53. > :45:57.he understands his experience, he understands the complexity of these

:45:58. > :46:03.issues and the potential impact that they can have upon ordinary people.

:46:04. > :46:08.That is why I am concerned `bout this and I know that the government

:46:09. > :46:14.sometimes get the impression is rather intolerant of those who want

:46:15. > :46:22.to raise issues such as this. I give way. Try to follow this closely I

:46:23. > :46:26.tried to square amendment 56 on government support with the

:46:27. > :46:29.assurances from minister. If the Minister is right, why would they be

:46:30. > :46:38.supporting MMS editions was well out and position -- which will `llow an

:46:39. > :46:47.position? I think he makes ` good point. May the Minister will reply

:46:48. > :46:53.to that. If we're talking about consensus, agreement between local

:46:54. > :46:56.authorities, then we do not need an amendment 56. Of merriment that the

:46:57. > :47:00.system is designed to enabld the government to intervene when local

:47:01. > :47:04.authorities or some local authorities do not do at thd

:47:05. > :47:07.government think they should be doing. That isn't what this is about

:47:08. > :47:13.essentially. We might as well face up to the reality -- this is what. A

:47:14. > :47:19.centralising part of this ddvolution bill because ringing power back to

:47:20. > :47:22.the government to an ever bhg a government to change the structures

:47:23. > :47:33.of local government boundarhes and ever give such as Dorset. Ftrther to

:47:34. > :47:38.the point made by my Honorable friend, if amendment 56 is

:47:39. > :47:45.accepted, despite the promises from the Minister, could this not be used

:47:46. > :47:48.as a lever against a counsel to say you better follow to live, or

:47:49. > :48:00.amendment petitions will be brought into play? -- amendment 56. That is

:48:01. > :48:06.exactly the way in which I envisioned this power being used.

:48:07. > :48:11.That is why I'm sure it is being, there was an attempt to smuggle it

:48:12. > :48:16.through at the last minute. And now we are exposing it for what it is. A

:48:17. > :48:23.power grab by the government to try and ensure that it can have the

:48:24. > :48:33.final word and deed the Council as it is not going to what it wishes to

:48:34. > :48:37.do. I am making an assessment that that my Honorable friend wotld

:48:38. > :48:47.support the amendment proposed by my Honorable friend, mainly have a

:48:48. > :48:53.referendum? I am a very supportive of that one. But have not h`d a

:48:54. > :49:02.chance to talk about it yet. Madam Deputy Speaker, because I w`s so

:49:03. > :49:06.concerned about this amendmdnt 6 and amendments a. I'm not going to

:49:07. > :49:11.restate the issue about the referendum, but I think a rdferendum

:49:12. > :49:21.is a necessary safeguard in this sort of situation. The unintended

:49:22. > :49:25.consequences can flow from local government reorganisation. @re such

:49:26. > :49:34.that if we look at the history books, we can see and the London

:49:35. > :49:39.education Authority was set up in London and was only when cotnsel

:49:40. > :49:45.started a campaign to abolish the authority, that education w`s given

:49:46. > :49:49.back to the inner London boroughs. As a result, or inner London bombers

:49:50. > :49:53.were able to gain economic growth as a result of having good quality

:49:54. > :49:57.education within their boundaries. The same thing happened with the

:49:58. > :50:04.Greater London Council. The Council was interfering in the life of the

:50:05. > :50:11.individual boroughs and a h`lf to What happened was, those in charge

:50:12. > :50:14.of the Baros at the time persuaded the conservative government to

:50:15. > :50:22.abolish the Greater London Council. As a result, parks are burndd by the

:50:23. > :50:29.local authorities, rather than being run by the remote authoritids -

:50:30. > :50:35.being run by. We need to have necessary safeguards if we `re not

:50:36. > :50:44.going to come up with proposals like this to the electoral, none of the

:50:45. > :50:48.stuff was in our manifesto. The suggestions that the good

:50:49. > :50:52.conservative government was going to restructure local authoritids in

:50:53. > :50:57.such a way to try and squeeze out small councils, which are closest to

:50:58. > :51:01.the people. If are not going to test this in a general election, and had

:51:02. > :51:11.gone to have to have an amendment 56 under statute until the end of March

:51:12. > :51:15.2019, I think it is all mord important that we should be able to

:51:16. > :51:23.have the safeguard of a refdrendum. The very safeguard which thd people

:51:24. > :51:37.of pool party and liberal Ddmocrats have sold to get from their

:51:38. > :51:43.leaders. Madam Deputy Speakdr, we are on the threshold of a bhg

:51:44. > :51:48.scratch of local government level between different councils,

:51:49. > :51:53.different tears, different counsellors and personalitids and

:51:54. > :51:59.political parties. This is going to threaten and preoccupied local

:52:00. > :52:06.government for the next four or five years. Will be able to look back and

:52:07. > :52:09.see the government wanting to interfere in areas where it should

:52:10. > :52:13.not be interfering at all. Ht should be trusting of the local

:52:14. > :52:22.counsellors, local people to decide what is best for them, and should

:52:23. > :52:26.not be taking a way that power to veto any proposals to changd the

:52:27. > :52:34.boundaries of upon which thdy operate. I very much hope that the

:52:35. > :52:40.House will not accept amendlent 56 as proposed to be amended bx the

:52:41. > :52:46.government. In place a government back into the position it w`s in

:52:47. > :52:48.before. To say it was genuinely fun local councils to decide and the

:52:49. > :52:58.government itself is not gohng to interfere. Or try to keep mx

:52:59. > :53:07.comments brief. -- I will try. A pleasure to follow my humbld friend

:53:08. > :53:13.who spoke powerfully on this. Madam Deputy Speaker, with deform`tion of

:53:14. > :53:17.a like to tell the House about - deformation something to happen and

:53:18. > :53:24.brochure. Many people for m`ny years had looked at the boundary of the

:53:25. > :53:28.city of whole. How it is to constrained and too little of the

:53:29. > :53:37.interim land within a. A lot of people that he'll make sensd to

:53:38. > :53:42.expand outside. The city of whole announced that it was that the

:53:43. > :53:46.commission to look at the b`tteries, look at the possibilities of whole