16/12/2015

:00:09. > :00:14.Order! Urgent question, Diana Johnson. To ask the Minister for

:00:15. > :00:21.Public health to make a statement on plans to reform support for victory

:00:22. > :00:29.in -- for victims of contaminated blood. The Minister for Public

:00:30. > :00:33.health. I recognise that I have committed in earlier debates to

:00:34. > :00:36.consult on proposals to reform the current payment schemes before the

:00:37. > :00:41.end of the and despite our best efforts we are unfortunately not yet

:00:42. > :00:44.ready to publish this before recess. However I can confirm today that the

:00:45. > :00:49.consultation will be published in January. The delay I know is

:00:50. > :00:53.disappointing for many anticipating this consultation before the end of

:00:54. > :00:56.the year, and I want to apologise for the delay, particularly to those

:00:57. > :01:00.Members of the house who have campaigned tirelessly for a

:01:01. > :01:05.resolution on behalf of constituents and of course to those directly

:01:06. > :01:09.affected to continue to wait patiently for our proposals. In the

:01:10. > :01:13.Westminster Hall debate in September I explained that any consultation

:01:14. > :01:17.would be within the context of the spending review and payments for the

:01:18. > :01:21.reform scheme would come from the Department of Health budget. The

:01:22. > :01:25.House will note that the outcome of the spending review was communicated

:01:26. > :01:28.to us only a few weeks ago. The reform of the payment schemes

:01:29. > :01:33.remains a priority and we are currently assessing what can be

:01:34. > :01:35.allocated above and beyond the additional ?25,000,000 already

:01:36. > :01:41.committed which is of course in addition to the existing baseline

:01:42. > :01:44.spending on payment schemes which will remain. Over my 2 years as

:01:45. > :01:49.public health minister I have regularly heard from those affected

:01:50. > :01:52.by this tragedy, every week I read a large number of letters to me and

:01:53. > :01:56.the Prime Minister from campaign groups and individuals and their

:01:57. > :02:00.families. All of whom have been affected by the tragedy in different

:02:01. > :02:04.ways. While considering proposals for consultation I want to make sure

:02:05. > :02:07.all of the views are reflected and in particular I don't miss the

:02:08. > :02:16.thoughts of those with quieter voices. We have arranged an

:02:17. > :02:19.independently facilitated event with representatives of some of the

:02:20. > :02:24.leading campaign groups and the report is available through those

:02:25. > :02:28.groups. I have also worked to keep Members of this House updated and

:02:29. > :02:38.you know how seriously I take my duties in this regard. Last month I

:02:39. > :02:42.invited Members of a haemophilia group to discuss this. My intention

:02:43. > :02:47.was to consult as soon as or but I warned this could be in January

:02:48. > :02:51.because of the spending review. As I discussed then I'm interested in the

:02:52. > :02:55.advent of simple and more effective treatments which have the ability to

:02:56. > :03:01.cure some people from hepatitis C and present a welcome opportunity to

:03:02. > :03:05.make some people well. I want to ensure this House that work

:03:06. > :03:12.continues and consultation will be published January. At that time it

:03:13. > :03:16.will be an oral statement. Because it is a priority for me to get this

:03:17. > :03:24.right, I have taken the decision to take a little more time and

:03:25. > :03:28.published a consultation in January. Your decision to grant the urgent

:03:29. > :03:32.question today is recognition of the long campaign for justice for this

:03:33. > :03:35.group and this is appreciated by everybody involved. I have to say to

:03:36. > :03:39.the Minister that I'm very disappointed I have had to ask for

:03:40. > :03:43.this urgent question today, ministers on three occasions

:03:44. > :03:45.promised a statement before Christmas, and they should not have

:03:46. > :03:50.been forced to come to the Chamber for the second time this year. I

:03:51. > :03:55.issue when the minister talks about the consultation being issued in

:03:56. > :04:01.January, she means January 2016, I would like clarification because

:04:02. > :04:04.dates always seemed to slip. Search action by the Government fuels

:04:05. > :04:09.distrust the people who have been let down for too long and I would

:04:10. > :04:12.like to ask four questions. The Minister is proposing a consultation

:04:13. > :04:16.of 12 weeks which she will need to assess before launching a new

:04:17. > :04:21.scheme. Can she explain how this is now feasible before the start of the

:04:22. > :04:24.next financial year? Secondly the minister claimed it would be the

:04:25. > :04:29.first full public consultation and I want to press upon the Minister that

:04:30. > :04:34.the APPG ran a full consultation with the same people earlier this

:04:35. > :04:39.year, so can the Minister assure me that she has considered the report

:04:40. > :04:43.and all of the evidence presented in it? Thirdly, as the Minister said,

:04:44. > :04:46.the Government delayed making a statement until after the spending

:04:47. > :04:51.review in order to determine the total financial envelope available.

:04:52. > :04:55.I understand that currently the Department of Health pays out ?40

:04:56. > :05:00.million a year with a total future financial commitment of ?455

:05:01. > :05:03.million. Can the Prime Minister tell the house how much more is now

:05:04. > :05:10.available after the comprehensive spending review? Fourthly, lump-sum

:05:11. > :05:14.payments were a key issue raised in response to the APPG enquiry but it

:05:15. > :05:19.now appears to be off the agenda. This is a major disappointment.

:05:20. > :05:22.Lump-sum payments allow bowlers affected to make real choices about

:05:23. > :05:28.their own lives, something they have been denied for far too long. --

:05:29. > :05:34.allowed it to have been affected. Could we use funds equivalent to the

:05:35. > :05:42.funds raised from the sale of plasma resources UK to fund lump-sum

:05:43. > :05:46.payments to those affected? I thank the honourable lady for her

:05:47. > :05:50.response. Of course I understand the disappointment that we are not able

:05:51. > :05:53.to consult before the end of the year and I did of course inform the

:05:54. > :05:57.honourable lady and her colleagues at the meeting on the 5th of

:05:58. > :06:00.November at that time that it was unlikely we would be able to consult

:06:01. > :06:06.before the end of the and it was recorded in the note that they made

:06:07. > :06:10.at the meeting as published in the all-party group. I have tried to

:06:11. > :06:14.keep colleagues informed and only last night I was speaking to a

:06:15. > :06:22.number of campaigners about this. The Honourable Member for Foil and

:06:23. > :06:24.Cove Valley. I was going to inform the honourable lady today or

:06:25. > :06:29.tomorrow and all of the other Members so I have done my best to

:06:30. > :06:32.keep people informed. I understand her point about the consultation. I

:06:33. > :06:37.will look at the point is that she makes but I have always been clear

:06:38. > :06:41.that the transition to a new scheme, and this is something we discussed

:06:42. > :06:44.at the meeting in early November, any transition to a new scheme has

:06:45. > :06:48.to be done in a way that does not compromise the safety of payments to

:06:49. > :06:53.people in the schemes, and therefore I don't see any problem with the

:06:54. > :06:56.issue of consulting and then moving towards a transition because the

:06:57. > :07:00.transition would be a gradual process anyway for some people. I

:07:01. > :07:05.want to ensure a safe transfer from the current scheme to any reform

:07:06. > :07:08.scheme. I don't see a real problem in that regard. This will be the

:07:09. > :07:12.first full consultation by the Government and she is right that the

:07:13. > :07:17.all-party group and others, my right honourable friend sat on the

:07:18. > :07:22.Treasury bench, of course gun at many views. It will be the first

:07:23. > :07:26.full Government consultation but of course all views including those put

:07:27. > :07:30.to the all-party group in their good report, those can be reiterated as

:07:31. > :07:34.part of the response to the consultation. I have made a

:07:35. > :07:39.statement already about the issue of money in my response to the urgent

:07:40. > :07:43.question. I understand the point she makes about lump-sum payments, it

:07:44. > :07:46.would not be appropriate to comment at that time and I could talk about

:07:47. > :07:51.it more when I make an oral statement at the time of the

:07:52. > :07:56.consultation launch. The principle that she reiterated in her questions

:07:57. > :07:59.about individual choice and treating people as individuals, the important

:08:00. > :08:03.principle that many Members have stressed to me, that is something we

:08:04. > :08:08.will very much recognised in what we put forward in the New Year. Jason

:08:09. > :08:12.McCartney. I would like to congratulate the honourable lady

:08:13. > :08:18.from Hull North who I co-chaired the group with for securing this urgent

:08:19. > :08:25.question. Can I also press the Minister to please use this valuable

:08:26. > :08:32.data that we had in the all-party report. It has real testimony from

:08:33. > :08:35.victims in how the trusts and funds, are just not delivering the support

:08:36. > :08:41.day-to-day that victims actually need, and when she comes back to the

:08:42. > :08:44.housing January, please can it be as soon as and not the last day when we

:08:45. > :08:51.then maybe have to go to another urgent question? Well, Mr Speaker,

:08:52. > :08:57.my honourable friend has campaigned very long and hard and very well on

:08:58. > :08:59.this is quite right to reiterate the importance of the views given to

:09:00. > :09:04.that report and they have already informed our thinking and I can

:09:05. > :09:08.confirm that. About how we go forward, and so have the views of

:09:09. > :09:12.many colleagues on all sides of the house, expressed over many months

:09:13. > :09:17.and years. I can give him that assurance that it will be considered

:09:18. > :09:20.and I have previously committed and I will reiterate that today, to a

:09:21. > :09:27.root and branch reform of current schemes. Thank you for granting this

:09:28. > :09:32.urgent question and I pay tribute to all the Members of this House who

:09:33. > :09:36.have been strong voices for the victims of contaminated blood. In

:09:37. > :09:40.particular to my honourable friend the Member for Hull North who has

:09:41. > :09:45.been tireless in her pursuit of answers. This scandal saw thousands

:09:46. > :09:51.of people died and thousands of families destroyed through the

:09:52. > :09:55.negligence of public bodies. Over the years, the response of

:09:56. > :10:00.governments of all colours just hasn't been good enough. It is a

:10:01. > :10:06.real shame that we are here yet again, wondering why action has been

:10:07. > :10:10.taken. Whilst I don't think anybody doubt this and Sarah Deal of the

:10:11. > :10:15.commitment that the Prime Minister made back in April, can the Minister

:10:16. > :10:19.understand the disappointment people have felt in recent months as

:10:20. > :10:25.promises to publish arrangements and to make statements have been

:10:26. > :10:30.repeatedly broken? Does she accept that this has only raised false hope

:10:31. > :10:35.among a community that already feels very betrayed? Given this further

:10:36. > :10:42.delay that she has announced today, what guarantees do we have that the

:10:43. > :10:46.January consultation date will be met and what redress other than an

:10:47. > :10:53.urgent question through you, Mr Speaker, will there be if it isn't?

:10:54. > :10:59.And the consultation is fine but can she say when any new scheme will

:11:00. > :11:03.actually be implemented? It is important that any new arrangements

:11:04. > :11:09.are properly scrutinised, so will she commit to a debate in Government

:11:10. > :11:12.time to allow that to happen? And finally, does the public health

:11:13. > :11:18.Minister appreciate that the longer this goes on, the longer we leave in

:11:19. > :11:27.place a system which isn't working, and leaves victims without adequate

:11:28. > :11:34.support. No amount of money can ever fully make up for what happened, but

:11:35. > :11:38.we do owe those still living with the consequences the dignity of a

:11:39. > :11:44.full, final, fair, and lasting settlement. This in Justice has gone

:11:45. > :11:53.on for far too long. The time for action is now. Mr Speaker I have

:11:54. > :11:57.already said that of course I regret the delay but this is a very complex

:11:58. > :12:02.area and I appreciate the tone in which the shadow public health

:12:03. > :12:05.minister responded because as he said, governments of all colours

:12:06. > :12:10.have not turned to this issue but we have and we are addressing it in a

:12:11. > :12:16.great deal of detail. It is a complex area with a diverse range of

:12:17. > :12:19.groups affected by this tragedy and we must get the consultation right

:12:20. > :12:23.for all of them and we are considering the funding issue and I

:12:24. > :12:28.have been clear about that in my response to the urgent question. Of

:12:29. > :12:32.course we are aware for the potential of litigation as it stands

:12:33. > :12:36.but I can't comment further. The House will appreciate that it adds

:12:37. > :12:41.complexity to the matter. Mr Speaker, I have always been happy to

:12:42. > :12:44.come to the House to explain, the issue of debates in Government time

:12:45. > :12:50.are not a matter for me but I have been delighted to not only debate

:12:51. > :12:52.this but to talk to colleagues including the shadow front bench

:12:53. > :13:00.privately or otherwise on this matter. That commitment remains.

:13:01. > :13:05.Chloe Smith. Carneiro cope the spirit of this debate today and say

:13:06. > :13:12.we need to do this job fast and well. Can I highlight the tragic

:13:13. > :13:16.circumstances of some of those affected such as a constituent of

:13:17. > :13:19.mine who has got even more ill as we have been debating even these fine

:13:20. > :13:29.details, there is no more time to lose. That point is well made and

:13:30. > :13:33.very much on my mind. When I am able to say more about the shape of the

:13:34. > :13:36.proposed reform scheme I hope my honourable friend will see that we

:13:37. > :13:39.have tried to respond to her concerns and those of many other

:13:40. > :13:49.honourable and right honourable Members. Philippa Whitford.

:13:50. > :13:54.Obviously the Penrose in cry -- enquiry was held in Scotland. The

:13:55. > :13:58.Prime Minister made her statement about the 25 million transitional

:13:59. > :14:02.payment. These people are awaiting a final settlement and compensation

:14:03. > :14:06.for what the NHS did. Their suffering goes on and it was made,

:14:07. > :14:11.the statement that the transitional payment would be in this financial

:14:12. > :14:14.year, to help these people get to that settlement, so while the

:14:15. > :14:19.consultation is on the final arrangement, we need some action

:14:20. > :14:22.now, so people need to have access to the new drugs, Scottish

:14:23. > :14:27.Government have written about support for fuel payments and we

:14:28. > :14:32.have to have the transition now and it should not be kicked into the

:14:33. > :14:36.long grass. This certainly hasn't been kicked into the long grass and

:14:37. > :14:42.I have said today that we will consult in January and that is my

:14:43. > :14:45.intention. The honourable lady speaks about compensation, I have

:14:46. > :14:50.said this before but I think it is again worth saying this from the

:14:51. > :14:53.dispatch box, while we are working to establish a fair resolution

:14:54. > :14:57.liability has not been established in the majority of cases so it is

:14:58. > :15:01.not appropriate to talk about compensation payments particularly

:15:02. > :15:04.on the scale that some campaigners and colleagues envisage and I have

:15:05. > :15:07.been open about that for many months. She is right to make the

:15:08. > :15:12.point about treatments and all of those things which are part of our

:15:13. > :15:16.considerations as we move forward. I would like to confirm to the house

:15:17. > :15:19.that although it was allocated to be spent in this financial year it will

:15:20. > :15:23.be carried forward and the money that the Prime Minister announced in

:15:24. > :15:27.March was to support the transition of the scheme and as we envisage the

:15:28. > :15:31.scheme transitioning in the spring next year following a consultation,

:15:32. > :15:38.that money will support that. But that money will be carried forward.

:15:39. > :15:42.Can I congratulate the Honourable Member for Hull North for securing

:15:43. > :15:48.this question. I am speaking today on behalf of a constituent, Steve

:15:49. > :15:53.Diamond, who has hepatitis C as a result of contaminated blood

:15:54. > :15:57.products. Although he is in remission, and normal life for him

:15:58. > :16:02.is quite impossible. I know that there are new drugs and treatments

:16:03. > :16:08.available, can the Minister ensure me that those advanced treatments

:16:09. > :16:12.will be available to sufferers without restriction? What we need is

:16:13. > :16:17.closure and I hope despite this delay that the closure can be very

:16:18. > :16:25.shortly delivered. This is a big subject in my part of Kent, it is

:16:26. > :16:28.trailed massively by the Kent on Sunday and we need closure and those

:16:29. > :16:34.affected needs certainty, can the Minister assure me of that? I have

:16:35. > :16:40.corresponded directly with Mr Diamond's partner and I know the

:16:41. > :16:49.level of suffering that he enjoys. -- he in doers -- he suffers. There

:16:50. > :16:54.is a very real threat of hepatitis C infection, and it is something

:16:55. > :16:56.uppermost in my mind as I look at how to report the scheme and support

:16:57. > :17:07.those who suffer. This comes after the shambles of the

:17:08. > :17:11.meeting in the Minister 's department last month. When

:17:12. > :17:18.honourable Members from both sides of the house arrived and after

:17:19. > :17:22.waiting were told that the meeting was over. And then received an

:17:23. > :17:29.apology from an official promising further information which was never

:17:30. > :17:34.supplied. Does the honourable lady understand what being a minister is?

:17:35. > :17:41.It means being in charge, it means only making a promise if you are

:17:42. > :17:46.certain that you will keep the promise. This has been a travesty

:17:47. > :17:51.and it would not matter so much if it were not for the sick people,

:17:52. > :17:56.including those in my constituency, who are living lives in hell,

:17:57. > :18:02.looking to the Government after the promises were made for some kind of

:18:03. > :18:09.alleviation during their lifetimes and they haven't got it. I slightly

:18:10. > :18:16.regret the tone that the right-armer gentleman takes. I have to say that

:18:17. > :18:19.I am totally mystified about the point he makes about the meeting

:18:20. > :18:22.which was organised with the all-party group with the right

:18:23. > :18:27.honourable lady's colleague and I think it may have been moved once at

:18:28. > :18:29.the request of the all-party group and the details and arrangements

:18:30. > :18:35.were circulated by the all-party group. Six honourable and right

:18:36. > :18:38.honourable colleagues attended the meeting, so I'm sorry if there was

:18:39. > :18:42.some confusion, but I don't think it was on the part of me or my

:18:43. > :18:45.officials and a number of colleagues came to the meeting and we had a

:18:46. > :18:50.useful discussion and I have sought to update others since. He is right

:18:51. > :18:55.that we need to move towards a conclusion but it's also a matter of

:18:56. > :18:58.record that he was at times a Member of the last Labour Government which

:18:59. > :19:06.for 13 years did not move forward on this matter. The Minister will be

:19:07. > :19:10.aware of my frustrations when dealing with the McFarlane trust,

:19:11. > :19:17.she has the weight of evidence from a consultation that that particular

:19:18. > :19:20.trust is not fit for purpose. Can I ask her to confirm that any final

:19:21. > :19:28.settlement will not be administered by the McFarlane trust? Bryan Ferry

:19:29. > :19:35.well aware of the shortcomings -- I am very well aware of shortcomings

:19:36. > :19:45.in relation to some of the schemes and that aspect of things, and I

:19:46. > :19:50.have confirmed before that reform of the schemes looking at that sort of

:19:51. > :19:55.thing, to make sure we don't have so many schemes, all of that will be

:19:56. > :20:00.part of the consultation so I can confirm that that point is very well

:20:01. > :20:04.made. I would add further record, Mr Speaker, that I met recently with

:20:05. > :20:09.the staff of the schemes, the people actually manning the phones and deal

:20:10. > :20:11.on a day to day, week to week basis with sufferers and I'm quite clear

:20:12. > :20:20.that those Members of staff, distinct perhaps from people... Or

:20:21. > :20:27.whatever, those people are offering a good service to people in

:20:28. > :20:31.difficult circumstances. Isn't this one of those situations where there

:20:32. > :20:37.is an absolute moral obligation on the Government to act and end this

:20:38. > :20:43.uncertainty and delay? Is she reassured that the spending review

:20:44. > :20:46.gives her the ability to bring a lasting and fair settlement and will

:20:47. > :20:53.she do everything that she can to ensure that it is in place at the

:20:54. > :20:56.start of the next financial year? I am very happy to give my former

:20:57. > :21:01.colleague in the Department of Health reassurance that this is

:21:02. > :21:05.taken extremely seriously by the Secretary of State, my colleagues at

:21:06. > :21:09.the Department of Health, it is a matter on which we are seeking to

:21:10. > :21:12.move forward. It will be for those who respond to the consultation and

:21:13. > :21:16.the reform scheme to give their views and we are seeking to move

:21:17. > :21:20.forward to a reform scheme that responds to the criticisms of the

:21:21. > :21:24.existing schemes and offers sustainability for people who have

:21:25. > :21:28.suffered so long. I hope I can satisfy him in that regard. I will

:21:29. > :21:37.be able to say more in the New Year when we published the scheme and

:21:38. > :21:41.details. One of my constituents is trying to access a drug and that is

:21:42. > :21:45.proving difficult because she has not contracted cirrhosis but has an

:21:46. > :21:49.underlying medical condition which is exacerbated by contaminated

:21:50. > :21:53.blood. Much is being reported about greater access as of February. Is

:21:54. > :21:57.this the case and will she be able to access the treatment that she

:21:58. > :22:03.desperately needs? I would love a yes or no answer because this is

:22:04. > :22:08.very frustrating. I could never give a yes or no answer to an individual

:22:09. > :22:11.health problems, I don't know the constituent and I'm not a clinician

:22:12. > :22:14.but if the Honourable Member would like to write to me I can certainly

:22:15. > :22:19.make sure I give an individual response. Ultimately the right

:22:20. > :22:30.clinical route will be at the suggestion of their consultant.

:22:31. > :22:33.Obviously Nice published new guidelines on new drug treatments,

:22:34. > :22:38.so the landscape in terms of hepatitis C is changing rapidly. As

:22:39. > :22:41.I say I'm very happy to make sure that honourable Members are fully

:22:42. > :22:45.informed. I said before in a previous debate on this issue that

:22:46. > :22:48.if people are concerned that their constituents are not aware of what

:22:49. > :22:54.is out there and don't feel they are getting support to access things in

:22:55. > :22:59.line with Nice guidance, then we can offer some advice two Members to

:23:00. > :23:04.make sure that happens but I'm well aware of the general point that he

:23:05. > :23:10.makes. Catherine West. Can the Minister clarify for individuals

:23:11. > :23:13.affected by this scandal, that they will receive individualised letters

:23:14. > :23:17.and how will they know that the consultation is opening next month?

:23:18. > :23:23.Obviously my officials have been giving considerable thought about

:23:24. > :23:27.how to do that. A number of people are already Members with existing

:23:28. > :23:31.schemes and we have a means to communicate but we know from

:23:32. > :23:34.previous experience following up on recommendations made by previous

:23:35. > :23:38.enquiries and indeed the recommendation made by the Penrose

:23:39. > :23:42.enquiry, we are making exhaustive efforts to ensure everybody,

:23:43. > :23:46.particularly those who have had a lump sum payment, we will make

:23:47. > :23:49.exhaustive efforts to inform people by every means possible and of

:23:50. > :23:59.course Members of Parliament can be of great assistance.

:24:00. > :24:05.Going back to the issue of medication, drugs that are available

:24:06. > :24:10.that have not yet been approved but can be prescribed are not being

:24:11. > :24:22.prescribed locally on financial grounds, surely, that is wholly

:24:23. > :24:29.unacceptable. The NHS is currently looking at its response to the most

:24:30. > :24:34.recent verdict, 25th of November, so fiercely, we have that yet to come

:24:35. > :24:39.in terms of the new treatment, the previous treatments that have

:24:40. > :24:41.already been given a nice guideline is that the NHS has commissioning

:24:42. > :24:49.arrangements in place. We may be able to give some helpful

:24:50. > :25:09.support. Conversation is important but the

:25:10. > :25:17.important issue, it was health-related, INAUDIBLE

:25:18. > :25:24.My officials are working very closely with all the devolved

:25:25. > :25:34.administrations, and obviously, as we move towards publication of the

:25:35. > :25:41.consultation, I would be looking to do that. I know the Minister will

:25:42. > :25:44.appreciate the frustration that constituents of mine have been

:25:45. > :25:46.waiting for an outcome for some decades and there will be another

:25:47. > :25:49.delay, given the Commons that have been made about transition funding,

:25:50. > :25:58.then you give a clearer idea of when you think the new system is going to

:25:59. > :26:01.be in place. We aim to consult, we want to make sure that the final

:26:02. > :26:05.shape of the reform scheme is informed by the consultation, before

:26:06. > :26:06.I have said that we will be looking to transition to another reform

:26:07. > :26:30.scheme in spring. The minister wrote to me on the

:26:31. > :26:34.fifth of the Pemba, the shape and structure of the new scheme is going

:26:35. > :26:36.to be decided following the consultation process that will begin

:26:37. > :26:41.by the end of this year. As previously committed and as was

:26:42. > :26:48.committed in the adjournment be it on the 9th of September. I'm deeply

:26:49. > :26:54.disappointed that we do not have that scheme or that consultation. My

:26:55. > :26:57.constituent, Brian Carbery, from Southdown, with whom I had the

:26:58. > :27:03.adjournment debate about, has told me in the last few weeks, that he

:27:04. > :27:10.has now got a form of cancer, and four tumours have been identified as

:27:11. > :27:16.a result of the connection with contaminated blood is. Will the

:27:17. > :27:19.minister give me an undertaking, given undertaking to the house today

:27:20. > :27:28.that a full and final settlement will be in place before the end of

:27:29. > :27:33.this financial year? I have already made my comments about the timing of

:27:34. > :27:43.the consultation, I cannot add to what I have already said. I have

:27:44. > :27:46.spoken often in debates. I think that the language she uses is

:27:47. > :27:50.language that previous to this exchange I have said, I have said

:27:51. > :27:53.what I have said about the issue of compensation, I have talked about

:27:54. > :28:04.the principles we will try to apply, and so I cannot add to the comments

:28:05. > :28:09.that I made in response. Could I challenge the Minister on the

:28:10. > :28:14.phrase, " quieter voices", it seems to be code for addressing the

:28:15. > :28:18.important but less costly issues of treatment and reform of the current

:28:19. > :28:21.scheme. Rather than a full and final settlement to what Lord Winston

:28:22. > :28:26.rightly called the worst treatment disaster in history of the NHS, we

:28:27. > :28:31.have moral duty, I'm just saying that the chance to give the money

:28:32. > :28:37.will not wash. Again, I have made that point, I have said already

:28:38. > :28:43.coming here today, I have said, previously in Westminster Hall, what

:28:44. > :28:46.the position is in regard to compensation, I accept that the

:28:47. > :28:49.honourable member has a different view, we had an exchange about that

:28:50. > :28:54.when he came to contribute to the discussion in November, I think that

:28:55. > :28:58.it would be wrong to use the phrase to dismiss the idea of listening to

:28:59. > :29:03.quieter voices, I have had the opportunity to do that, over the

:29:04. > :29:06.last couple of years, and it is clear that there is a number of

:29:07. > :29:10.people who want a number of different things from a reform

:29:11. > :29:15.scheme, it is not going to be possible to do everything that

:29:16. > :29:19.everyone is. We are going to respond as best we can with a scheme that is

:29:20. > :29:26.sustainable and fair to all, and that is what has happened with many

:29:27. > :29:29.of the points made here today. I thank the honourable member to bring

:29:30. > :29:32.in this question, I had a constituent only on Friday at my

:29:33. > :29:35.surgery who wanted to raise the issue on this topic and she will do

:29:36. > :29:39.most disappointed that there was further delay, could I ask the

:29:40. > :29:42.Minister, if she has not done this already, take up the issue of

:29:43. > :29:48.continued to have assessments for the DWP, she feels it is strenuous

:29:49. > :29:52.that she has to continue to prove her case to qualify for benefits and

:29:53. > :29:55.she cannot be unique in the country among this, she found the treatment

:29:56. > :30:01.she found at the hands of the NHS was not the most sensitive, she

:30:02. > :30:06.wishes some gains could be issued on that for health care professionals.

:30:07. > :30:10.-- some guidance. Thank you for your comments, I will reflect upon them,

:30:11. > :30:14.obviously matters for the DWP are outside of the remit for the

:30:15. > :30:17.Department of Health but those general issues are points I will

:30:18. > :30:21.take on board and can refer to colleagues on. As I have said, we

:30:22. > :30:27.continue to work with the administrations on this, matters for

:30:28. > :30:33.the NHS, assuming that her constituent is treated in Scotland,

:30:34. > :30:37.that is a devolved matter for the Scottish NHS. Apologise for the

:30:38. > :30:41.forthright tone, but my constituent affected simply wants to be able to

:30:42. > :30:45.buy a home to secure for his family, not available to them. Can I tell my

:30:46. > :30:50.constituent that next year, there should be a new scheme in place and

:30:51. > :30:56.she will be eligible to receive support? It is clearly my intention

:30:57. > :30:59.that next year we should have a reform scheme in place, I do not

:31:00. > :31:06.know the circumstances of the constituents I cannot make that emit

:31:07. > :31:10.more. We want to move to a reform scheme, I understand the frustration

:31:11. > :31:14.of members opposite, but as I think the gentleman speaking for the

:31:15. > :31:17.public health minister acknowledged, governments of all descriptions and

:31:18. > :31:22.all shades have not stood up and tackled this issue, and we are going

:31:23. > :31:26.to try to do something, it will not satisfy everyone, but I hope that we

:31:27. > :31:35.will be able to come forward with a scheme that will respond to the

:31:36. > :31:39.concerns of many people. I think the member for holding all, for raising

:31:40. > :31:43.this question, the Minister may recall, the meeting I attended on

:31:44. > :31:46.the 5th of November, things to discuss, the setting up of a

:31:47. > :31:51.contingency fund rather than relying on the spending review, because you

:31:52. > :31:54.confirm she has went to the Treasury, and secondly, will the

:31:55. > :32:02.consultation consider loved ones who have been lost because of this. I

:32:03. > :32:06.have already covered the issue of funding in my statement in response,

:32:07. > :32:11.the honourable member came to the meeting, and we considered a number

:32:12. > :32:16.of things, there are, and discuss them. I do not think I can add to

:32:17. > :32:19.what I have already said, this is a priority for the Department of

:32:20. > :32:24.Health and we are seeking to identify the amount of money on top

:32:25. > :32:28.of the transitional 25 million and on top of the baseline spent on the

:32:29. > :32:41.current scheme, that we can use in supporting the reform scheme. 6000

:32:42. > :32:44.infected, 2000 dead, 30 year struggle, this delay is one part of

:32:45. > :32:52.the continuing nightmare that these victims face. Can the Minister tell

:32:53. > :32:59.my constituents, Fred Bates and Peter Moxham and, when this

:33:00. > :33:04.nightmare will come to an end? I cannot right the wrongs of 30 years

:33:05. > :33:10.but I can only try and do what I can do in the circumstances that we

:33:11. > :33:14.have, in the money that we will allocate to this, we will bring

:33:15. > :33:17.forward the plans for reform schemes, and I invite him and his

:33:18. > :33:22.constituent to respond to that, looking to the future, we have to

:33:23. > :33:25.look at what we can do going forward to support people and how we can

:33:26. > :33:29.respond to some of the circumstances which are new, some of the ways in

:33:30. > :33:32.which the circumstances that we address the terrible difficult

:33:33. > :33:36.tragedy in some of the ways in which the circumstances have changed and

:33:37. > :33:44.make sure that our response reflects the new changed circumstances. The

:33:45. > :33:47.Minister may recall that when the all-party group met her in early

:33:48. > :33:51.November, we warned that any slippage on this would be greeted as

:33:52. > :33:56.slipperiness, by people who have suffered delays too long. Does she

:33:57. > :33:59.understand that people will be worried, that the extra time has

:34:00. > :34:02.been taken to make sure there is a more controlled consultation with

:34:03. > :34:08.options being sealed off, and would she address the underlying question

:34:09. > :34:11.that people want to ask, if liability can be admitted by the

:34:12. > :34:16.Irish health service, based on the fact that the risk was known, can

:34:17. > :34:22.liability not be admitted on the part of the NHS and compensation be

:34:23. > :34:26.forthcoming? Payments that were made by the Republic of Ireland are a

:34:27. > :34:28.matter for them, they were in response to the circumstances in

:34:29. > :34:36.Ireland related to the roots of blood products. -- use. I understand

:34:37. > :34:42.the frustration, I spoke with him last night informally to alert into

:34:43. > :34:46.the fact that there was some delay. I reiterate, it is better to come

:34:47. > :34:52.forward with a scheme where we have had a chance to put more effort and

:34:53. > :34:57.more detail around, rather than for the sake of a few weeks, rush out

:34:58. > :35:02.something that does not give anybody any real sense of what is being

:35:03. > :35:05.consulted on, the delay, although frustrating, and I have acknowledged

:35:06. > :35:08.that a number of times, although frustrating, it will give rise to a

:35:09. > :35:15.better and more meaningful consultation. The victims are

:35:16. > :35:21.clearly identified and well overdue a final settlement, weeks ago, in

:35:22. > :35:24.this chamber, I asked the government if they would provide additional

:35:25. > :35:28.support for victims through this winter, it may be mild here but it

:35:29. > :35:33.is not mild everywhere, many are suffering from fuel poverty. Given

:35:34. > :35:37.the ever stretching time that this is taking to resolve, will the

:35:38. > :35:42.Minister now committed to providing that support? She has been asked by

:35:43. > :35:49.the Scottish Government to do that, will she commits to it now? This

:35:50. > :35:53.matter has been raised with me either health Minister, from

:35:54. > :35:57.Scotland, I intend to respond in the next few days. I know that the

:35:58. > :36:03.Northern Ireland and Welsh administrations are considering

:36:04. > :36:07.this, and have not fed back to me. I did raise it with the members who

:36:08. > :36:11.attended the all-party group meeting in early November, there was not the

:36:12. > :36:14.time, relatively limited interest in the proposal but I will respond in

:36:15. > :36:28.the next couple of days. Secretary Philip Hammond. With the

:36:29. > :36:34.mission I wish to make a statement to update the house on the campaign

:36:35. > :36:42.against Daesh in Iraq and Syria. Two weeks ago this house voted for the

:36:43. > :36:46.extension of UK air strikes against Daesh into the heartland in Syria.

:36:47. > :36:50.As the Prime Minister and I set out during the debate, this extension of

:36:51. > :36:55.military strikes is just one part of the strategy to bring stability to

:36:56. > :37:03.Iraq and Syria, by defeating lame -- by defeating Daesh, and it has

:37:04. > :37:07.been welcomed by international partners, including the United

:37:08. > :37:11.States, and France and other partners in Europe and the Gulf.

:37:12. > :37:14.During the debate we committed to update the house quarterly on the

:37:15. > :37:18.progress of the strategy, but given the high level of interest expressed

:37:19. > :37:22.by honourable members during the debate, I decided to offer an early

:37:23. > :37:26.first update before the house rises this week. Turning first to the

:37:27. > :37:32.military strand of the strategy, as is well-known, the first RAF air

:37:33. > :37:37.strikes against Daesh in Syria were conducted just a few hours after the

:37:38. > :37:39.vote in this house, successfully targeting oil facilities in eastern

:37:40. > :37:45.Syria, which provide an important source of illicit income to Daesh.

:37:46. > :37:50.Instead, RAF aircraft have conducted further strikes against Daesh in

:37:51. > :37:54.Syria, targeting wellheads in the extensive Omar oilfields, and

:37:55. > :38:00.conducting reconnaissance and surveillance missions. To enable

:38:01. > :38:05.this increased tempo of activity, a further two RAF tornadoes and six

:38:06. > :38:10.typhoons have been deployed to RAF Akrotiri, in Cyprus, ringing the

:38:11. > :38:15.total number of manned aircraft conducting strikes to 16, in

:38:16. > :38:20.addition to the RAF Reaper unmanned aircraft, also deployed in the

:38:21. > :38:23.region. During the debate on the second, a number of honourable and

:38:24. > :38:27.right honourable members expressed concern about the possibility of

:38:28. > :38:34.civilian casualties resulting from British military action, and of

:38:35. > :38:43.course, there is a risk involved in any kind of combat strike activity.

:38:44. > :38:47.It continues to be the case that we have had no reports of civilian

:38:48. > :38:53.casualties as a result of UK air strikes in Iraq or Syria, and I pay

:38:54. > :39:00.tribute to the precision and professionalism of the RAF pilots in

:39:01. > :39:07.conducting these operations. In Iraq, government forces continue to

:39:08. > :39:11.make progress against Daesh. Operations began in autumn 2014 and

:39:12. > :39:19.since then, the strategically significant times of Tikrit and

:39:20. > :39:23.others have all been retaken. To the west of Baghdad, it is now

:39:24. > :39:28.supported, supported by US mentors, and Daesh occupies are being

:39:29. > :39:35.squeezed, including by RAF close support. The work is well advanced

:39:36. > :39:40.in building a sunny local police force, supported by local tribal

:39:41. > :39:45.forces, so that they can hold and police the city once it is

:39:46. > :39:49.liberated. In total, RAF tornadoes and Reaper drones have flown more

:39:50. > :39:56.than 1600 missions over Iraq. -- Sunni. Conducting over 400 strikes.

:39:57. > :40:01.In Syria, the situation is more complicated. The majority of Russian

:40:02. > :40:07.air strikes continue to target Syrian opposition forces rather than

:40:08. > :40:11.Daesh, in the last two weeks, the Russians have attacked opposition

:40:12. > :40:16.forces between Homs and Aleppo, and in the far north of Syria, in doing

:40:17. > :40:19.so, they have allowed Daesh to seek advantage on the ground, with

:40:20. > :40:25.coalition partners, including the United States, we will continue to

:40:26. > :40:30.urge the Russians at every opportunity to focus fire solely on

:40:31. > :40:35.Daesh. It is unacceptable that Russian action is weakening the

:40:36. > :40:39.opposition, and thus giving advantage to the very Daesh forces

:40:40. > :40:44.they claim to being gauged against. Turning now to the campaign to

:40:45. > :40:49.disrupt the finances and stop the flow of foreign fighters, as well as

:40:50. > :40:54.targeting oil assets, which experts estimate account for 40% of Daesh

:40:55. > :41:00.revenues, my right honourable friend the Chancellor will tomorrow attend

:41:01. > :41:04.the first ever meeting of finance ministers at the Security Council in

:41:05. > :41:07.New York, to agree a further strengthening of the UN sanctions

:41:08. > :41:13.regime against Daesh. It is also crucial that country is strictly in

:41:14. > :41:17.force sanctions with appropriate investigations and prosecutions. And

:41:18. > :41:21.to ensure that we have our own house in order, we have begun the review

:41:22. > :41:24.ordered by my right honourable friend the Prime Minister into

:41:25. > :41:30.funding of Islamist extremist activity in the UK. It will report

:41:31. > :41:36.to the Prime Minister in the spring. We continue to work with Turkey and

:41:37. > :41:38.others to build an increasingly sophisticated network to interdict

:41:39. > :41:45.foreign fighters seeking to enter Syria. Alongside money, Daesh relies

:41:46. > :41:50.heavily on propaganda, to attract financial support and new recruits.

:41:51. > :41:54.And so we have stepped up efforts to counter their messaging. The UK has

:41:55. > :42:01.created a coalition communication cell, which is working to combat and

:42:02. > :42:07.undermine the Daesh brand, ensuring that no communication space

:42:08. > :42:12.currently exploited by Daesh is left uncontested, generating a full range

:42:13. > :42:15.of innovations at a pace and scale necessary to highlight the cruel and

:42:16. > :42:20.inhumane treatment of individuals under its control by Daesh, the

:42:21. > :42:25.failures on the battlefield, and its perversion of Islam. It has already

:42:26. > :42:28.received staffing and financial contributions from coalition

:42:29. > :42:35.partners, and others have expressed strong support and an intention to

:42:36. > :42:39.contribute in the future. At the heart of our comprehensive strategy,

:42:40. > :42:43.a recognition that to defeat Daesh in its heartland, we need a

:42:44. > :42:48.political track to bring an end to the Civil War, and to have in place

:42:49. > :42:52.a transitional government in Syria. The world can then once again

:42:53. > :42:57.support a legitimate Syrian government, so that the Syrian army,

:42:58. > :43:01.Syrian opposition forces and Kurdish Peshmerga can concentrate efforts

:43:02. > :43:07.against Daesh, liberating their own country from this evil organisation.

:43:08. > :43:10.Diplomatic efforts to deliver a negotiated end to the Civil War and

:43:11. > :43:15.a transitional government are continuing apace. International

:43:16. > :43:19.Syria support group, bringing together all the major international

:43:20. > :43:25.players, has agreed the need for a ceasefire, humanitarian access, and

:43:26. > :43:31.an end to attacks on civilians. In its communique, November 14, the ISS

:43:32. > :43:37.G-7 out its goals: transitional government within six months, new

:43:38. > :43:44.constitution, and new internationally supervised elections

:43:45. > :43:47.within 18 months. -- ISSG set out its goals. I further meeting is

:43:48. > :43:51.expected to take place in New York on Friday, I shall attend. In

:43:52. > :43:57.preparation I met the Foreign Minister 's of like-minded members

:43:58. > :44:02.of the ISSG in Paris on Monday, including the US, France, Germany,

:44:03. > :44:06.Saudi Arabia and Turkey. Separately, in Riyadh, last week, Saudi Arabia

:44:07. > :44:10.brought together well over 100 representatives from a wide range of

:44:11. > :44:15.Syrian opposition groups, to agree an opposition negotiating commission

:44:16. > :44:19.and a negotiating policy statement, ahead of talks between the Syrian

:44:20. > :44:24.opposition and the Syrian regime, convened by the UN, which we hope

:44:25. > :44:28.will begin in January. The conference committed to Syria's

:44:29. > :44:33.territorial integrity, to the continuity of the Syrian state, and

:44:34. > :44:38.negotiations under the framework of the Geneva communique. It also...

:44:39. > :44:42.The participants also committed themselves to, and I quote, a

:44:43. > :44:46.democratic mechanism through a pluralistic system representing all

:44:47. > :44:53.spectrums of the Syrian people, men and women, without discrimination or

:44:54. > :44:59.exclusion, on a religious, sectarian or ethnic basis, and based on the

:45:00. > :45:02.principles of citizenship, human rights, transparency, and

:45:03. > :45:09.accountability, and the rule of law over everyone. Given the diversity

:45:10. > :45:12.of the Syrian opposition, I regard that as a significant achievement

:45:13. > :45:16.and I congratulate Saudi Arabia on it. The UK will continue to provide

:45:17. > :45:23.full support to interest Syrian negotiations. In Iraq we continue to

:45:24. > :45:28.support the Prime Minister, to deliver the reform reconciliation

:45:29. > :45:32.needed to unite all of the communities in the fight against

:45:33. > :45:37.Daesh. -- intra-Syrian. I also welcome the recent announcement of

:45:38. > :45:39.the formation of an Islamic military coalition to fight terrorism,

:45:40. > :45:45.bringing together 34 Muslim countries to partner with the rest

:45:46. > :45:48.of the international community. I have discussed this initiative in

:45:49. > :45:54.detail with my Saudi counterpart, the Foreign Minister, it's clear

:45:55. > :45:56.intention is the creation of a coalition which is flexible,

:45:57. > :46:02.contributing on a case-by-case basis to defend moderate Islamic from the

:46:03. > :46:09.forces of extremism. Finally, turning to the need for continued

:46:10. > :46:13.humanitarian support and post-conflict stabilisation in both

:46:14. > :46:16.Syria and Iraq, as the Prime Minister outlined to the house again

:46:17. > :46:20.today at prime ministers questions, the end of the Civil War in Syria

:46:21. > :46:25.and the defeat of Daesh in both Iraq and Syria will present the

:46:26. > :46:29.International immunity with an enormous and urgent stabilisation

:46:30. > :46:33.challenge. Building on our humanitarian support to the Syria

:46:34. > :46:38.crisis in which we remain the second largest bilateral donor, we have

:46:39. > :46:43.committed a minimum of ?1 billion to Syria's reconstruction in the

:46:44. > :46:48.long-term, and in February, the Prime Minister will co-host, with

:46:49. > :46:52.Germany, Kuwait, Norway and the UN, an international donor conference

:46:53. > :46:57.here in London focused on meeting by the United Nations's 2016 appealed

:46:58. > :47:03.to support refugees from 04, as well as longer-term financial commitment.

:47:04. > :47:08.-- refugees from Civil War. Since the house took the decision to weeks

:47:09. > :47:14.ago to send military efforts into Syria, the government is taken

:47:15. > :47:19.forward with coalition partners, a comprehensive strategy to degrade

:47:20. > :47:24.and ultimately defeat Daesh, we are making steady progress in Iraq and

:47:25. > :47:26.Syria, targeting finances through military action and action with

:47:27. > :47:31.international partners, disrupting the flow of foreign fighters, we are

:47:32. > :47:35.fighting their ideology and their propaganda. We are a leading player

:47:36. > :47:40.in the diplomatic effort to deliver a political settlement to end the

:47:41. > :47:45.Syrian Civil War. And we are preparing for the day after that

:47:46. > :47:48.settlement, and the defeat of Daesh, so that we can ensure the long-term

:47:49. > :47:55.future stability and security of Iraq and Syria. The fight against

:47:56. > :48:01.Daesh will not be won overnight, but however long it takes, it is in our

:48:02. > :48:05.vital national interest to defeat this terrorist organisation, and the

:48:06. > :48:12.direct threat that it poses to our national security. Failure is not an

:48:13. > :48:19.option. I commend this statement to the house. Diana Johnson. I would

:48:20. > :48:23.like to begin by passing on the apologies of my right honourable

:48:24. > :48:27.friend, the Shadow Foreign Secretary, who is unable to respond

:48:28. > :48:30.to this statement because he is an ever visit to the occupied

:48:31. > :48:34.Palestinian Territories and Israel and I would also like to thank the

:48:35. > :48:41.Foreign Secretary for the courtesy extended to me by his office and for

:48:42. > :48:44.updating the house before recess. The scale of the humanitarian

:48:45. > :48:50.catastrophe stemming from the Civil War in Syria is almost too great

:48:51. > :48:54.comprehends, the death toll is over 250,000 people, millions of men,

:48:55. > :48:59.women and children will spend this Christmas as refugees, living in

:49:00. > :49:03.tense in the Lebanon and Turkey, and in Europe, in Greece, Serbia and

:49:04. > :49:07.Calais, even after all the brutality we have seen over the last four

:49:08. > :49:13.years, the situation continues to deteriorate. This week, there were

:49:14. > :49:17.the appalling reports that Daesh will murder children who have Down's

:49:18. > :49:21.syndrome. The international community have failed the people of

:49:22. > :49:26.Syria, we must now do everything we can to address the situation. I want

:49:27. > :49:30.to turn first of all to the military aspect of the UK strategy, I note

:49:31. > :49:35.that the UK military action up until now has focused firstly an economic

:49:36. > :49:40.infrastructure, particularly oil, which is so key to financing Daesh,

:49:41. > :49:46.and secondly, on alleviating the pressure of the Kurdish Peshmerga

:49:47. > :49:50.forces operating in Syria. It is notable that the Foreign Secretary

:49:51. > :49:54.did not mention action to support other moderate forces in Syria. So

:49:55. > :49:57.can the Foreign Secretary update the house on what progress the

:49:58. > :50:02.government have made, in identifying and co-ordinated with such forces? I

:50:03. > :50:07.note that the Foreign Secretary stated that there has been no

:50:08. > :50:10.casualties, said civilian casualties, resulting from UK

:50:11. > :50:16.military action in Iraq and Syria, can the Foreign Secretary outlined

:50:17. > :50:20.to the house the steps taken before a strike is all the right, to

:50:21. > :50:24.minimise civilian casualties, and then after a strike is occurred,

:50:25. > :50:30.are investigated. I want to pay are investigated. I want to pay

:50:31. > :50:35.tribute to the outstanding bravery and professionalism of the British

:50:36. > :50:40.military personnel, who have carried out these early missions. When we

:50:41. > :50:45.all return to our constituencies over the Christmas break and return

:50:46. > :50:48.to our families, these brave men and women will be continuing to serve

:50:49. > :50:53.our country in difficult and dangerous circumstances, for this,

:50:54. > :51:00.they deserve our unflinchingly admiration and respect. Of course,

:51:01. > :51:02.as the opposition have consistently argued, military action could only

:51:03. > :51:08.ever be part of the package of measures needed to defeat Daesh and

:51:09. > :51:12.end the civil War, the overriding priority has got to be supporting a

:51:13. > :51:18.diplomatic agreement, which unites the elements opposed to Daesh within

:51:19. > :51:21.Syria and paves the way for the departure of Asha al-Assad, the

:51:22. > :51:26.first step to this is agreement between the Sunni factions opposed

:51:27. > :51:33.to both Bashar al-Assad and Daesh, and I do note the approach in

:51:34. > :51:37.Riyadh. There has been speculation about the talks, can you inform the

:51:38. > :51:42.house how the talks that were invited to attend the talks were

:51:43. > :51:47.selected, and did the UK make representations to the Saudis as to

:51:48. > :51:51.who should be invited and in particular, were the Kurdish groups

:51:52. > :51:55.such as the Syrian Democratic forces and the Democratic union party

:51:56. > :52:01.present at the talks? It has been reported that the Salafist group --

:52:02. > :52:04.that they Salafist group has pulled out of talks last week and were

:52:05. > :52:08.opposed to any peace talks with Bashar al-Assad. It was later

:52:09. > :52:10.reported they had signed the agreement, could the Foreign

:52:11. > :52:17.Secretary confirmed the correct position. This group has an

:52:18. > :52:21.estimated 20,000 fighters, can the Foreign Secretary confirmed whether

:52:22. > :52:27.those 20,000 form part of the 70,000 figure the government previously

:52:28. > :52:31.cited as being moderate forces opposed to Bashar al-Assad and

:52:32. > :52:35.Daesh. The key test of the Riyadh agreement will be whether it

:52:36. > :52:39.facilitates meaningful peace talks and a ceasefire, as outlined in the

:52:40. > :52:42.second Vienna conference, and I am pleased that the Foreign Secretary

:52:43. > :52:47.is optimistic about the possibility for these talks. Can the Foreign

:52:48. > :52:51.Secretary confirmed, following the Riyadh agreement, the Syrian

:52:52. > :52:54.opposition will have a common position and a single representative

:52:55. > :53:01.at these talks, or whether there will be distinct factions

:53:02. > :53:06.represented. The original timetable for the possible cessation of

:53:07. > :53:12.facilities was from January one, does the Foreign Secretary still

:53:13. > :53:16.feel that is achievable? Was there a clear commitment to this timetable

:53:17. > :53:20.from all of the parties present at the Syria talks in Paris on Monday.

:53:21. > :53:24.With so many different parties to the Syrian Civil War maintaining a

:53:25. > :53:31.ceasefire will be extremely complex, as the government explored the

:53:32. > :53:35.possibility of a UN resolution, reinforcing the outline agreement,

:53:36. > :53:38.including the ceasefire, agreed at the second conference, and can the

:53:39. > :53:43.government confirm whether they will seek a resolution to confirm any

:53:44. > :53:48.agreement which is reached between Syrian opposition forces and Bashar

:53:49. > :53:51.al-Assad. Finally, I want to return to the humanitarian response and the

:53:52. > :53:55.millions of refugees in tense this Christmas, in the Lebanon, nearly

:53:56. > :54:01.one in four of the population is a recent refugee from Syria, Jordan is

:54:02. > :54:07.hosting more than 1 million Syrian refugees, around 340,000 refugees

:54:08. > :54:11.have been resettled in Germany, and just this week, we saw the Canadian

:54:12. > :54:14.Prime Minister, Justin Trudeau, welcoming the first of 35,000

:54:15. > :54:19.refugees to be settled in Canada, by refugees to be settled in Canada, by

:54:20. > :54:25.next October. I was pleased to hear, in prime ministers questions today,

:54:26. > :54:27.that the 1000 refugees that the government had promised to resettle

:54:28. > :54:39.will be here in the UK by Christmas. I am grateful to the honourable lady

:54:40. > :54:44.and she is right to highlight yet another recent example of Daesh's

:54:45. > :54:49.cruelty. There is nothing that this organisation is not capable of,

:54:50. > :54:53.frankly. She asks about the focus of UK military activity and it's

:54:54. > :54:57.important to emphasise that we don't do this independently as a national

:54:58. > :55:04.contingent, we operate as part of a coalition. Our aircraft are assigned

:55:05. > :55:09.to the coalition air operations command which tasks them to whatever

:55:10. > :55:13.task needs doing at the time, and this can quite literally be aircraft

:55:14. > :55:22.being diverted to provide close air support to forces on the ground

:55:23. > :55:25.engaged in an action. She asks about UK support for moderate forces and

:55:26. > :55:32.I'm slightly confused by the question because the proposition put

:55:33. > :55:38.before this House two weeks ago was clear and narrow, it was about

:55:39. > :55:41.conducting air strikes against Daesh in Syria. It was not about

:55:42. > :55:47.intervening in the Civil War between the moderate opposition and regime

:55:48. > :55:52.forces. Different Members of the house may have different views about

:55:53. > :55:56.the wisdom of taking such action but at the moment we are very clear,

:55:57. > :56:03.that is not what the UK is engaged in doing. I should just clarify that

:56:04. > :56:06.she said I had said in my statement that there were no civilian

:56:07. > :56:10.casualties and I can't of course make that statement, what I said was

:56:11. > :56:15.civilian casualties arising from UK civilian casualties arising from UK

:56:16. > :56:23.air strikes. She asked me about what steps we take to minimise the risk

:56:24. > :56:26.of casualties. The RAF of course has very strict rules of engagement

:56:27. > :56:35.among the strictest of any air force in the world. The Defence Secretary

:56:36. > :56:40.explained to the House that he has created structures which give a

:56:41. > :56:43.higher degree of direct control over targeting decisions. And we use

:56:44. > :56:49.standard Nato procedures for analysing battle damage and dealing

:56:50. > :56:55.with any allegations of civilian casualties or collateral damage. I

:56:56. > :57:00.am grateful to her for her acknowledgement of the commitment of

:57:01. > :57:02.our 800 military personnel in theatre and her recognition of the

:57:03. > :57:06.sacrifice that their families in particular will be making this

:57:07. > :57:12.Christmas, spending it with out their loved ones who are on active

:57:13. > :57:16.service. Of course this military action is part of a comprehensive

:57:17. > :57:21.strategy and we all understand in this House that we will not resolve

:57:22. > :57:25.the situation by military action alone and the talks were an

:57:26. > :57:28.important step forward. It was the Saudi Arabians that brought the

:57:29. > :57:33.opposition together using their convening power, the convening power

:57:34. > :57:42.of the King of Saudi Arabia as the guardian of the two holy mosques, no

:57:43. > :57:46.one could have done that. We now have a new opposition grouping

:57:47. > :57:49.including a large number of representatives of the armed

:57:50. > :57:53.opposition on the ground, and that is a significantly more legitimate

:57:54. > :57:58.body than previous representatives of the opposition which have tended

:57:59. > :58:02.to represent oppositionists who are outside the country and who are not

:58:03. > :58:06.directly engaged in the fighting. In answer to the direct question, the

:58:07. > :58:11.UK and other partners in coalition provided the Saudis with lists,

:58:12. > :58:15.suggestions of who should be included and ultimately it was their

:58:16. > :58:26.decision about who was included in the invitation. She asked me about

:58:27. > :58:29.the curious question of Ara Asham because there is ambiguity, they

:58:30. > :58:33.attended the conference and signed the declaration but they left before

:58:34. > :58:37.the end. They have now signed the declaration and we take them to be

:58:38. > :58:45.bound by the commitments made in the declaration. And for clarity, the

:58:46. > :58:53.70,000 opposition figure, opposition fighters figure we have used does

:58:54. > :59:00.not include that force. They are not extremists like al-Nusra or Daesh,

:59:01. > :59:05.they are not Democrats in the sense of the free Syrian army so we don't

:59:06. > :59:08.include them in the figure. She said I was optimistic about talks but I

:59:09. > :59:14.have to say that I am under no illusion that we are still having a

:59:15. > :59:20.huge chasm to bridge between ourselves on one hand and the

:59:21. > :59:25.Russians and Iranians on the other about the future of Bashar al-Assad.

:59:26. > :59:31.That will be an issue for many oppositionists engaging in the

:59:32. > :59:34.process. In terms of Syrian opposition unity the convening power

:59:35. > :59:40.of Saudi Arabia can do a great deal to deliver that and the conference

:59:41. > :59:44.was a great step forward but no one should imagine that there will be

:59:45. > :59:49.disagreements within the Syrian opposition even as they confront the

:59:50. > :59:56.Syrian regime in face-to-face talks. -- that there won't be

:59:57. > :59:59.disagreements. She asks about the ceasefire and it remains the clear

:00:00. > :00:03.intention of the US Secretary of State John Kerry to try to get

:00:04. > :00:08.agreement on Friday in New York to a ceasefire. Frankly, that will be

:00:09. > :00:15.highly challenging but I commend him for his ambition. We are also

:00:16. > :00:18.holding this meeting in New York on Friday rather than Vienna

:00:19. > :00:22.specifically to be able to go immediately to the United Nations

:00:23. > :00:26.Security Council if it becomes clear during the morning that it is

:00:27. > :00:34.possible to reach an agreement that the Russians will not veto in the UN

:00:35. > :00:37.Security Council, so there is a possibility, but I would put it no

:00:38. > :00:45.higher than that that Friday's meeting will end with a UN Security

:00:46. > :00:48.Council resolution. I join her in commending the extraordinary effort

:00:49. > :00:53.and sacrifice of the people of Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey in

:00:54. > :00:58.providing refuge to so many of those fleeing the chaos in Syria, and

:00:59. > :01:03.taking on this burden on asked and without fanfare, not just over the

:01:04. > :01:10.last few months but for many years. -- without being asked. May I join

:01:11. > :01:13.the opposition in welcoming the Foreign Secretary's update to the

:01:14. > :01:19.House and join him in congratulating the Saudi Arabians for their success

:01:20. > :01:29.last week in assembling opposition groups. Canellas Kim in relation to

:01:30. > :01:32.Ara Asham, what progress has there been on the Jordanian task of

:01:33. > :01:37.identifying Islamist groups in standing outside the whole

:01:38. > :01:43.negotiation process between the Syrian Government and opposition

:01:44. > :01:45.forces? Also there have been long-standing disturbing reports of

:01:46. > :01:53.Turkish action or inaction on the Turkish Syrian border that has

:01:54. > :01:55.served to aid Daesh. Now that he has identified them as a like-minded

:01:56. > :02:04.Member of coalition, what doubts does he have that action is not in

:02:05. > :02:09.the interest of Daesh on the border? And in regards to Iraq he referred

:02:10. > :02:22.to a Sunni police force for Ramadi, what progress has there been around

:02:23. > :02:25.and around Anbar? On the Jordanian process the Strand attempting to

:02:26. > :02:28.identify who should be considered terrorists, I spoke with my

:02:29. > :02:33.Jordanian counterpart on Monday evening and this work is

:02:34. > :02:40.progressing, all parties have fared in their views about Navas number of

:02:41. > :02:43.groups and the Jordanians are seeking to distinguish groups that

:02:44. > :02:50.have a significant number of fighters from those that are

:02:51. > :02:54.literally two dozen people and crossed referencing those partners.

:02:55. > :02:56.This is a work in progress. On the Turkish Syrian border I met

:02:57. > :03:03.yesterday with the US special envoy Brett McGurk, the successor to

:03:04. > :03:07.General John Alan and we spoke about the issue. He tells me that there

:03:08. > :03:15.are clear signs on the ground that the Turks are moving, now, to close

:03:16. > :03:20.the border in this 60 odd mile gap that remains open at the moment and

:03:21. > :03:23.that is very good news. On the question of the Iraqi National

:03:24. > :03:27.Guard, as my honourable friend knows, the legislation to create a

:03:28. > :03:33.National Guard which we regard as very important, is bogged down in

:03:34. > :03:36.the Iraqi parliament and it is precisely for that reason that the

:03:37. > :03:41.pragmatic approach of creating an armed local police as a ground

:03:42. > :03:47.holding mechanism in the absence of the ability to create a National

:03:48. > :03:53.Guard has been taken. Alex Salmond. Can I thank the Foreign Secretary

:03:54. > :03:58.for his statement and say that UK forces in theatre carry the

:03:59. > :04:03.admiration and support of these benches. On three aspects can the

:04:04. > :04:06.Foreign Secretary tell us more? I welcome the new initiatives on

:04:07. > :04:10.finance and information and propaganda. The Foreign Secretary

:04:11. > :04:15.said that the Chancellor was going to the first ever meeting of finance

:04:16. > :04:18.ministers and Security Council to pursue the Security Council

:04:19. > :04:24.resolutions? Doesn't it speak volumes that it is the first meeting

:04:25. > :04:26.to tackle the flows of finance, the financial institutions, the arms

:04:27. > :04:32.dealers, without whom Daesh would not move a muscle or fire a shot?

:04:33. > :04:37.Can the Foreign Secretary sure this House that after so long of waiting

:04:38. > :04:45.for initiatives in this direction these will be pursuit as vigorously

:04:46. > :04:47.as other parts of the tactics? The communication cell that the Foreign

:04:48. > :04:54.Secretary announced had been established, can he tell us how many

:04:55. > :05:00.people and how much money at our -- how much money are being used to

:05:01. > :05:03.counteract the propaganda of Daesh? Given the extraordinary cost of

:05:04. > :05:10.military action it would be nice to have the comparison of what is spent

:05:11. > :05:16.militarily and what is spent on countering poisonous propaganda. On

:05:17. > :05:19.the subject of civilian casualties, the Foreign Secretary says, and it

:05:20. > :05:24.is welcome across the Chamber, that there are no reported casualties of

:05:25. > :05:30.UK action in Syria. Of course he'll zone knows that the UK-based Syrian

:05:31. > :05:34.Observatory on human rights, has reported in the last few days 26

:05:35. > :05:40.civilian casualties from the coalition of which we are apart of

:05:41. > :05:47.action in Syria. -- he will also know. Including seven children and

:05:48. > :05:51.four women reported dead. As bombing moves into urban and City centres

:05:52. > :05:56.such as Raqqa, where there has been no bombing from UK forces as yet, as

:05:57. > :06:02.I understand it. What exactly will be the means taking forward the Nato

:06:03. > :06:08.protocols in terms of investigating the reports of civilian casualties?

:06:09. > :06:14.And how will that be responded to in this House and elsewhere? Mr

:06:15. > :06:22.Speaker, I thank the right honourable gentleman particularly of

:06:23. > :06:26.UK forces to the task. It is the first meeting in the Security

:06:27. > :06:31.Council of finance ministers and it sends a clear signal about the

:06:32. > :06:37.importance with which we regard the issue. There have been many measures

:06:38. > :06:41.taken already and there are financial sanctions in place.

:06:42. > :06:47.Financial flows working group is led by Bahrain. It has been operating

:06:48. > :06:53.for a year now. The fact that finance ministers of the key

:06:54. > :07:00.countries in the world are going to New York tomorrow to sit in the

:07:01. > :07:04.forum of the Security Council to pass these measures is an important

:07:05. > :07:09.symbol of our commitment to shutting down this channel of Daesh's

:07:10. > :07:13.lifeblood which we regard as extremely important. We saw in

:07:14. > :07:18.relation to sanctions on Iran that getting the financial sanctions

:07:19. > :07:22.right is at least as important as getting the sanctions on the flow of

:07:23. > :07:29.physical goods right. He asked me about the communication cell, and

:07:30. > :07:35.the operation of this cell necessarily encroaches into the work

:07:36. > :07:38.of the secret intelligence agencies, so I can't give him details of the

:07:39. > :07:41.resources available and the number of people that are deployed but I

:07:42. > :07:49.can tell him that it is already having visible and measurable

:07:50. > :07:54.effects on communication channels. He asked me about coalition deaths,

:07:55. > :07:58.debts resulting from coalition action. Any civilian death is deeply

:07:59. > :08:03.regrettable. I was referring to deaths attributed to RAF action and

:08:04. > :08:07.I believe while the House will be concerned about civilian deaths more

:08:08. > :08:12.widely it will be on the question of RAF caused civilian casualties that

:08:13. > :08:16.the house will want to focus, particularly, and I intend to ensure

:08:17. > :08:25.that the House remains updated if the situation changes in respect of

:08:26. > :08:32.any reports of RAF caused civilian casualties. He asked me about

:08:33. > :08:35.protocols for investing civilian casualties reports as the campaign

:08:36. > :08:43.moves on. Nato has well-established protocols for investigating any

:08:44. > :08:46.incidents where civilian casualties are expected to have occurred or

:08:47. > :08:51.imagery suggests there could have been collateral damage to civilian

:08:52. > :08:59.buildings. Nato routinely publishes the outcome of those investigations.

:09:00. > :09:03.John Barron. Recent discussions with Government officials on a visit to

:09:04. > :09:07.countries in the region have confirmed key questions remain

:09:08. > :09:12.unanswered about the strategy of combating Daesh which remains the

:09:13. > :09:14.best funded terror group in history. On the non-military side why aren't

:09:15. > :09:20.hard questions being asked of regional allies about funding, the

:09:21. > :09:25.funding of donations to Daesh from within those countries? And when it

:09:26. > :09:30.comes to the oil, why aren't we asking more of regional allies to

:09:31. > :09:36.just not disrupt the flow of stolen oil heading north but also combating

:09:37. > :09:44.the end customers of that oil is Chamakh because without a market

:09:45. > :09:53.that can be no cash flow. -- of that oil, because without a market...

:09:54. > :09:57.Daesh is receiving funding from within the region, I cannot be

:09:58. > :10:04.certain that there is not channels of funding remaining open to them

:10:05. > :10:07.from within the region, I'm confident none of the governments

:10:08. > :10:14.contribute or condone any such funding. On the question of flow of

:10:15. > :10:20.oil, as he well knows, this oil is being sold into a black market, I'm

:10:21. > :10:25.afraid that black markets are an inevitable consequence of any kind

:10:26. > :10:29.of embargo on the sale of goods, we are doing everything we can to

:10:30. > :10:33.interdict and disrupt the flow of oil and indeed, to disrupt the flow

:10:34. > :10:42.of the proceeds of the sale of that oil. But he will know that the scale

:10:43. > :10:45.of production is small, the means of transport are crude, sometimes even

:10:46. > :10:50.primitive, and this is quite difficult to disrupt to the extent

:10:51. > :10:53.that we would like, arming the wellheads, so this stuff cannot be

:10:54. > :11:01.produced in the first place, is likely to be the most efficient way

:11:02. > :11:05.to do it. Is in the crucial difference that the RAF goes out of

:11:06. > :11:10.its way to avoid civilian casualties while Daesh goes out of its way to

:11:11. > :11:14.destroy and kill and maim as many Ellison civilians as it possibly

:11:15. > :11:19.can? -- isn't the crucial difference. As well as commending --

:11:20. > :11:24.as many innocent civilians. The how should also remember families back

:11:25. > :11:25.home in RAF Marumatsu Rossi mouth, in Scotland, who will be without

:11:26. > :11:42.their loved ones this Christmas. The RAF and other Nato air forces

:11:43. > :11:47.training doctrine is all built around minimising the risk of

:11:48. > :11:55.civilian casualties. -- RAF Marham, and RAF Lossiemouth. That is not the

:11:56. > :12:05.case with Daesh, they do not seek to emit civilian casualties. INAUDIBLE

:12:06. > :12:10.-- Linette. Saudi Arabian initiative against Islamic coalition, which

:12:11. > :12:13.aims to be through the face of a very good ground force for the

:12:14. > :12:18.future... INAUDIBLE What the Foreign Secretary not agree

:12:19. > :12:25.with me that we have some capabilities to offer, command and

:12:26. > :12:31.control can training -- command and control, training, perhaps they can

:12:32. > :12:40.make a useful contribution. We have ruled out the use of UK combat

:12:41. > :12:54.forces, in Syria. We have not ruled out the provision of UK

:12:55. > :12:57.capabilities. All could provide very substantial reinforcement to any

:12:58. > :13:06.troops that were deployed on the ground. Stella Creasey. Yesterday I

:13:07. > :13:09.met with the Waltham Forest Council of mosques about Daesh, they share

:13:10. > :13:14.the concern to tackle the threat they pose, I have questions about

:13:15. > :13:22.the strategy. The Secretary of State said that failure was not an option,

:13:23. > :13:27.what did he mean, how can he define failure and success in the

:13:28. > :13:32.operations in Syria? Success is the destruction of Daesh. I do not

:13:33. > :13:38.delude myself, I have said this many times, that destroying Daesh will

:13:39. > :13:45.end the threat of Islamist extremism. But this particular

:13:46. > :13:50.iteration of it, as a military force occupying territory, must be ended.

:13:51. > :13:55.The struggle to defeat the perversion of Islam, that the Daesh

:13:56. > :14:00.ideology represents, the extremist ideology, will take much longer, it

:14:01. > :14:04.will be the struggle of a generation and it is a struggle that must be

:14:05. > :14:11.led by Muslims themselves. Reclaiming their religion from the

:14:12. > :14:15.extremists. I very much welcome the briefing and look forward to similar

:14:16. > :14:18.such briefings in the New Year, as chairman for the all-party group for

:14:19. > :14:21.Kurdistan, I was wondering what feedback and briefings the Foreign

:14:22. > :14:26.Secretary has had on the effect on morale and military capability of

:14:27. > :14:30.Kurdish Peshmerga forces following these targeted UK air strikes on

:14:31. > :14:36.both sides of the Syrian Iraqi border? My honourable friend the

:14:37. > :14:40.member for Bournemouth East was in Kurdistan yesterday, and he reports

:14:41. > :14:44.that our action has boosted morale, among Kurdish forces, as you would

:14:45. > :14:49.expect, particularly what has been happening around Sinjar province as

:14:50. > :14:55.considerably boosted morale, and the strategic position of Kurdish forces

:14:56. > :15:02.and they are extreme it delighted for it, no other word about it. In a

:15:03. > :15:06.statement, the Secretary of State said that the majority of Russian

:15:07. > :15:11.air strikes continue to target Syrian opposition forces rather than

:15:12. > :15:13.Daesh. Russia's Broughty is to protect the regime of Bashar

:15:14. > :15:17.al-Assad, isn't it clear, does it remain that position of the British

:15:18. > :15:25.government that Bashar al-Assad cannot be part of any solution to

:15:26. > :15:29.the crisis? Along since gave up using the word clear, to describe

:15:30. > :15:34.any thing about Russian policy, it is anything but clear, it is always

:15:35. > :15:38.paid, and the truth is, we simply do not know what the Russian strategy

:15:39. > :15:43.is, we do not know what their objectives are, and my assessment is

:15:44. > :15:48.that most people in the Russian system do not know, perhaps Vladimir

:15:49. > :15:53.Putin has in his head and idea about what the endgame but what I do know,

:15:54. > :15:57.some 75% of Russian air strikes are being conducted against people that

:15:58. > :16:01.we believe have to be part of the solution to the Syrian problem, and

:16:02. > :16:08.not against Daesh, we are very clear, they are the enemy. I welcome

:16:09. > :16:12.the emphasis on a political solution and a possible ceasefire in Syria,

:16:13. > :16:18.given the growing strength of Daesh in Libya, can you tell us how we

:16:19. > :16:22.might get political progress and are their military consequences of that

:16:23. > :16:26.growing concentration? As they say, I am glad that I have been asked

:16:27. > :16:35.that question, because it so happens that there is planned for tomorrow

:16:36. > :16:39.in Morocco a signing ceremony, it is hoped by the UN special

:16:40. > :16:42.representative, Martin Kober, that a majority of the members of the House

:16:43. > :16:50.of Representatives and a significant number of members of the GNC will

:16:51. > :16:56.sign an agreement creating a government of national accord. If

:16:57. > :16:59.that happens tomorrow, then the Western countries, the Gulf

:17:00. > :17:05.countries, will swing behind that government of national accord, and

:17:06. > :17:09.look to build its capability as soon and as quickly as we possibly can.

:17:10. > :17:13.-- Martin Kobler. So that we can begin to work in Libya to contain

:17:14. > :17:23.the threat that Daesh represents in that country. With the escalation of

:17:24. > :17:29.the UK's role in the conflict, defence should form a central part

:17:30. > :17:32.of planning processes to ensure the situation in the country does not

:17:33. > :17:36.deteriorate, how will the government is sure that the coalition military

:17:37. > :17:42.operations do not worsen conditions faced by civilians in Syria, nor

:17:43. > :17:49.negatively affect difficult passages to create humanitarian assistance.

:17:50. > :17:52.If it does do precisely what she has suggested, of course, the lion share

:17:53. > :17:57.of the work is concentrated in supporting refugees who have left

:17:58. > :18:03.the country, there are issues around getting supplies into Syria, to

:18:04. > :18:09.support refugees, that is one of the crucial strategic areas, the

:18:10. > :18:14.relatively small corridor along the Turkish Syria border that still

:18:15. > :18:19.remains open, to international traffic, and securing that, making

:18:20. > :18:20.sure it remains open, is a key objective of coalition forces for

:18:21. > :18:29.humanitarian reasons. may I warmly applaud the new impetus

:18:30. > :18:32.that has been given to the diplomatic approach and I'm

:18:33. > :18:39.delighted that the United Kingdom is playing a valuable role.

:18:40. > :18:45.In his statement, he set out the details of the strikes taking place

:18:46. > :18:51.by the Royal air force in Iraq, he did not mention what is happening in

:18:52. > :18:57.Syria, given that the application of brimstone was such a key difference

:18:58. > :19:02.between us and other coalition partners, can he set out how many

:19:03. > :19:09.strikes have taken place in Syria with dual lead brimstone. As having

:19:10. > :19:13.my right honourable friend knows, these are operational details that I

:19:14. > :19:20.cannot give more detail on, as I said earlier, in response to the

:19:21. > :19:24.opposition spokesman, the UK forces are committed to the combined air

:19:25. > :19:29.operations centre, which tasks aircraft from coalition countries to

:19:30. > :19:37.whatever task is in hand at the moment. The analysis of strikes

:19:38. > :19:41.carried out by the coalition is done, again, by the combined air

:19:42. > :19:48.operations centre, and in due course, in the New Year, those

:19:49. > :19:54.figures will be released. Does the secretary of state ever team into

:19:55. > :20:00.air war 's website, if he does, he will see there are between 660 and

:20:01. > :20:07.970 civilian casualties in the last 15 months of operation in Iraq and

:20:08. > :20:10.Syria. Would he please send an official from the Foreign Office to

:20:11. > :20:15.discuss with them the definition of a non-combatants, a civilian

:20:16. > :20:21.casualty, and work out, so that this house may know the truth about how

:20:22. > :20:26.many civilians are dying in Iraq and Syria as a result of our actions.

:20:27. > :20:34.The honourable gentleman slightly caveat it is question in the last

:20:35. > :20:40.four words, five word, " as a result of our actions", and of course he is

:20:41. > :20:45.right, they are dying at the hands of Daesh, civilians are dying as a

:20:46. > :20:49.result of ongoing conflict across the country, our commitment is to

:20:50. > :20:54.ensure that civilian casualties are rising from the operations of the

:20:55. > :20:58.royal air force, are minimised, or ideally avoided altogether. I am

:20:59. > :21:02.sure that we are doing an excellent job. I do not know the website you

:21:03. > :21:07.thought about, I cannot commit a Foreign Office official to going and

:21:08. > :21:11.talking to their website... I think we have to use proper official

:21:12. > :21:19.definitions of civilian casualties coordinated through the combined air

:21:20. > :21:23.operations. I join my right honourable friend in welcoming the

:21:24. > :21:27.34 nation coalition formed by Saudi Arabia to defeat terrorism, I asked

:21:28. > :21:32.my right honourable friend, if he will urge all Middle East states

:21:33. > :21:41.whether Shia Sunni to get behind this military Islamic Alliance to

:21:42. > :21:50.defeat Daesh, stability in the region promotes steps towards a Shia

:21:51. > :21:53.and Sunni reconciliation. The division in the middle East,

:21:54. > :21:59.relatively new phenomenon, to the politics of the region, is an

:22:00. > :22:02.helpful and destabilising. I am assured by my Sebi Arabians

:22:03. > :22:09.counterpart that the initial 34 nations that have announced their

:22:10. > :22:12.membership of this coalition is not an exclusive list, there is other

:22:13. > :22:16.countries considering joining, I very much hope that further

:22:17. > :22:23.countries will join, giving it the broadest base and the greatest

:22:24. > :22:27.legitimacy possible. -- by my Saudi Arabian counterparts. I'm concerned

:22:28. > :22:30.about the lack of progress on civilian protection inside Syria,

:22:31. > :22:34.much of it perpetrated by the resume of Bashar al-Assad, ending the

:22:35. > :22:38.indiscriminate use of barrel bombs is surely a key confidence building

:22:39. > :22:43.measure that should be prioritised, alongside efforts towards a formal

:22:44. > :22:48.ceasefire, should Friday not to live on a ceasefire, can I urge other

:22:49. > :22:51.members to protect civilians, a no bombing zone for instance. Wildie

:22:52. > :22:58.reconfirm the equivocal commitment by the government not to have any

:22:59. > :23:02.truck with anyone working with Bashar al-Assad's forces that is a

:23:03. > :23:06.compromise we should be willing to make, this would be morally wrong,

:23:07. > :23:07.it would be counter-productive, given that Bashar al-Assad is the

:23:08. > :23:23.biggest recruiting tool for Daesh. As I said in my statement, we do

:23:24. > :23:28.aspire to drive a ceasefire as a result of Friday's meeting. Even he

:23:29. > :23:32.recognises that that is ambitious. We are focused on confidence

:23:33. > :23:36.building measures that do not go as far as a ceasefire but are more

:23:37. > :23:40.likely to be readily achievable, including an end to the use of

:23:41. > :23:44.indiscriminate weapons in civilian areas and an end to the bombing of

:23:45. > :23:51.hospitals and medical facilities, and a guarantee of humanitarian

:23:52. > :23:55.access to besieged areas on both sides of the conflict. She asks me

:23:56. > :23:59.if we will consider alternative methods of protecting the civilian

:24:00. > :24:04.population, she mentioned specifically nobleman zones. I am

:24:05. > :24:07.afraid that we have looked extensively and a lot of military

:24:08. > :24:12.effort has gone into analysing what is possible and what is not. The

:24:13. > :24:16.analysis is that this is not something that will be practical to

:24:17. > :24:21.deliver in the absence of forces on the ground and, as she knows, we

:24:22. > :24:24.have no intention of committing forces on the ground. I do want to

:24:25. > :24:34.pick up the points you made about Assad, the reason we say Assad can

:24:35. > :24:38.play your part in the future is because they want to end the killing

:24:39. > :24:41.and, whatever has happened in the past, if I thought this is bring the

:24:42. > :24:47.killing to an end more quickly, I was looking to, it will not. It will

:24:48. > :24:52.not bring us a ceasefire or an end to the Civil War and you will not

:24:53. > :25:07.get all of the guns in Syria turned on Daesh. Will marry honourable

:25:08. > :25:14.friend agree that when you side with Vladimir Putin, you need to use a

:25:15. > :25:19.very long spoon. In this battle, it is somehow helpful and we should

:25:20. > :25:22.reconsider sanctions. My honourable friend confirmed that that is not

:25:23. > :25:28.the view of the Government. The Government speaks clear that anyone

:25:29. > :25:34.who genuinely want to take part in the fight against Daesh is welcome

:25:35. > :25:39.to join the coalition and to do so. What the Russians have done so far

:25:40. > :25:50.is, at best, ambiguous. Yes, they have bombed Daesh editions. Since

:25:51. > :25:57.the loss of the Russian aircraft, to almost certainly a Daesh inspired

:25:58. > :26:01.attack with bombs. The percentage of Russian air strikes on Daesh has

:26:02. > :26:09.increased. It is still only around 25% of the total of the L strikes.

:26:10. > :26:17.The remainder are targeted against other opposition. -- air strikes.

:26:18. > :26:22.You mentioned in your statement there referring to a coalition of

:26:23. > :26:27.70,000. The coalition are very diverse and have very different

:26:28. > :26:37.goals and ambitions. Cute you update this house on how this argument is

:26:38. > :26:40.coming together? Attack could you? As I think we covered quite

:26:41. > :26:48.extensively in the debate to weeks ago, there isn't -- this isn't a

:26:49. > :26:55.certain army, of course it isn't. This is many diverse groups fighting

:26:56. > :26:58.one opposition. We can confirm there are approximately 70,000 fighters in

:26:59. > :27:02.the campaign. This means that they have objectives that they can

:27:03. > :27:06.broadly associate with and people we can broadly be prepared to work

:27:07. > :27:10.with. As I set out in my speech coding that debate two weeks ago,

:27:11. > :27:16.the way we envisage this working is an end to the Civil War, thus

:27:17. > :27:23.creating a legitimate governments in Syria which the community can

:27:24. > :27:26.support, training, intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance,

:27:27. > :27:32.weapons, ammunition, commander support anti-Syrian army lost

:27:33. > :27:47.Digital lives working alongside -- is thus the working alongside them.

:27:48. > :27:57.Daesh are on the back foot in Iraq. Sinjar has been liberated, remedy,

:27:58. > :28:02.as the Street, is being overrated. There has been some very good and

:28:03. > :28:09.positive outcomes to. There has been great challenges and there is a real

:28:10. > :28:15.need for a strong political portion for coordination, post-conflict

:28:16. > :28:26.coordination, in that country. There is a strong ambassador letters

:28:27. > :28:30.respected on all sides. We have been doing just that. As my honourable

:28:31. > :28:37.friend says, we have considerable influence in both Baghdad and the

:28:38. > :28:41.bill. Some of the steps that need to be taking to create an environment

:28:42. > :28:47.in which the Sunni population in Iraq feels comfortable and feel like

:28:48. > :28:52.fully fledged citizens of the country are locked in the Iraqi

:28:53. > :28:57.parliament and they are being blocked for a variety of reasons.

:28:58. > :29:04.Some of them to do with the basis of politics rather than the issues high

:29:05. > :29:09.principle. Does the secretary agree with me that Vladimir Putin must

:29:10. > :29:14.choose whether he wants his country to remain a respected member of the

:29:15. > :29:22.UN Security Council or continue down the road towards international

:29:23. > :29:28.pariah and being a rogue state. If he chooses the latter path, is there

:29:29. > :29:34.a lease deal to make sure that it does not profit in any way from what

:29:35. > :29:38.it has been doing? I want to answer this question properly. I have said

:29:39. > :29:46.before in this house that, while I deplore many things that the

:29:47. > :29:49.Russians do, I do not believe that Russia and President Putin

:29:50. > :29:53.recognised a threat from Daesh to Russia, which is at least as great

:29:54. > :30:00.as the threat from Russia to the west. Russia has 13 million Sunni

:30:01. > :30:04.Muslims living inside the borders of the Russian Federation. What we

:30:05. > :30:08.disagree about his methodology. President Putin would say, if you

:30:09. > :30:14.are here, to answer the question, that he is going out defeating Daesh

:30:15. > :30:17.in the way that he believes will be most effective. We fundamentally

:30:18. > :30:23.disagree with him for the reason that I explain to the honourable

:30:24. > :30:28.lady a view minutes ago. Unless Assad is gone, we will not get free

:30:29. > :30:42.conciliation any Syrian war and we will not get all Syrian forces

:30:43. > :30:45.turning the guns on Daesh. Democratically recognisable methods

:30:46. > :30:56.that we favour. But I know what he was saying. My honourable friend has

:30:57. > :30:59.inferred... My right honourable friend has referred to the

:31:00. > :31:03.challenges from Russia. Does he not always agree that they are

:31:04. > :31:08.presenting huge opportunities and a very good example of the cooperation

:31:09. > :31:22.we saw yesterday with Benteke going into space? -- Kim Peek going into

:31:23. > :31:30.space. They went up into space and my honourable friend was that as

:31:31. > :31:33.yet. Will he not agree that overall, it is now in the British national

:31:34. > :31:38.interest to have better relations with Russia and if he wants more

:31:39. > :31:47.cooperation in the UN, it would be a good idea to look at Ukrainian

:31:48. > :31:53.situation? Yes, clearly these are two separate situations and we are

:31:54. > :31:56.not trading them. Russia has to comply with its international

:31:57. > :32:05.obligations in relation to Ukraine, remove its troops from Ukraine under

:32:06. > :32:12.the Minsk agreement. It also has to decide if it wants to be part of the

:32:13. > :32:18.fight against Daesh of person you are other methods. Thank you. It is

:32:19. > :32:21.right that the Foreign Secretary has come to this house to make a

:32:22. > :32:26.statement today. It is right that people across the house a tribute to

:32:27. > :32:29.the inspiring commitment of our Armed Forces and their families. On

:32:30. > :32:33.the subject of commitment, but the Foreign Secretary think it is a

:32:34. > :32:36.little strange that we keep hearing the Government berate other

:32:37. > :32:39.countries for their lack of commitment on aid for Syria, when

:32:40. > :32:45.our commitment to refugees has been so very poor and does he feel that

:32:46. > :32:48.it should be improving, diplomatic commitment if we gave a little bit

:32:49. > :32:54.more sanctuary to just take you more. No. As I have said before, we

:32:55. > :33:01.are very clear that the best way to support most refugees is by

:33:02. > :33:05.providing the aid they need for the food programmes, health care,

:33:06. > :33:09.shelter, education for their children to enable them to remain in

:33:10. > :33:15.the region until this conflict is over and then return to their homes

:33:16. > :33:19.to rebuild the country and be part of Syria's future. What we have said

:33:20. > :33:22.is that for those who are especially vulnerable as defined by the UN, we

:33:23. > :33:27.will accept and therefore resettlement. These are the most

:33:28. > :33:31.vulnerable refugees requiring extensive support once they arrive

:33:32. > :33:39.here and we are very proud to resettle 1000 of them by Christmas.

:33:40. > :33:48.My honourable friend has reassured us that Assad and not be part of the

:33:49. > :33:56.long-term solution. -- can not. Does he believe that all forces against

:33:57. > :34:02.the Assad regime are cooperating with the military process? The Assad

:34:03. > :34:08.regime has said that it has selected its negotiating team and it is ready

:34:09. > :34:14.to meet with the Syrian opposition on a no preconditions basis. Of

:34:15. > :34:31.course, that assertion remains to be tested. They regime remains to be

:34:32. > :34:42.seen. The talks in Syria will depend on a crucial phone call from Moscow.

:34:43. > :34:49.I was going to call the honourable gentleman, but I want to be assured

:34:50. > :35:05.that he did not leave the chamber at any time. I just nipped to the

:35:06. > :35:09.gents. Very well. It is talked about that Afghanistan recruit in 29 of

:35:10. > :35:17.the 34 states, transfer money from the outfield of Syria to fund the

:35:18. > :35:20.campaign. The foreign fighters now have trained divisions in

:35:21. > :35:22.Afghanistan and have declared war on the Caliban, what is the

:35:23. > :35:28.Government's assessment of the situation in Afghanistan and what

:35:29. > :35:38.does it think is best going forward to defeat Daesh? -- Caliban. At the

:35:39. > :35:44.11th hour Syrian debate, it is not many of the things you have shared

:35:45. > :35:50.with those in great difficulty. I thank him for his question. There is

:35:51. > :35:55.evidence of penetration in Daesh from many countries, including

:35:56. > :35:59.Afghanistan. What we have to do is continue to support, as we have

:36:00. > :36:05.done, any international causation has done, and the Government have to

:36:06. > :36:11.continue to find in the Afghanistan police and National Army in this

:36:12. > :36:15.attempt to create a new equilibrium and we will find this happening

:36:16. > :36:19.elsewhere. We need to be clear about this and it will pop up in other

:36:20. > :36:26.countries as well, and we need to be ready to respond to it where ever it

:36:27. > :36:30.arises. I welcomed the statement and remarks about humanitarian support

:36:31. > :36:37.and humanitarian corridors, is there any more he can tell the house about

:36:38. > :36:41.the ongoing discussions about securing access across Syria for

:36:42. > :36:48.humanitarian support and whether or not there is any progress in meeting

:36:49. > :36:53.a resolution? That'll be one of the issues on the table on Friday. We

:36:54. > :36:59.believe, I mentioned earlier on, and end to indiscriminate use of weapons

:37:00. > :37:05.in civilian areas, and end to the bombing of medicals facilities and

:37:06. > :37:08.humanitarian access to besieged areas. These are the confidence

:37:09. > :37:10.building measures that we believe the UK is promoting and to be

:37:11. > :37:22.providing any conference on Friday. He has been very clear in telling us

:37:23. > :37:25.they have been no civilian casualties and the Foreign Secretary

:37:26. > :37:35.has clarified today there have been no reports of civilian casualties. I

:37:36. > :37:41.was surprised to read yesterday that the Ministry of Defence responded,

:37:42. > :37:47.what you mean by people. What does the Ministry of Defence mean by

:37:48. > :37:55.people? That is the big question for the Ministry of Defence. Clearly

:37:56. > :37:59.people will have been killed. As a result of air strikes. We have no

:38:00. > :38:04.reports of civilian casualties are rising. I cannot afraid tell the

:38:05. > :38:11.honourable lady anything more than that. I very much commend the

:38:12. > :38:16.updates and briefing that my right honourable friend has given us. I

:38:17. > :38:25.was very privileged last month to be in the region meeting with the

:38:26. > :38:31.post-merger mac who were very grateful for our support. Can I have

:38:32. > :38:40.assurances that they will continue to work directly with Kurds in the

:38:41. > :38:50.region to press the site further against ISO. I think he is well

:38:51. > :38:56.aware from his visit we are giving support to Kurdish forces in Iraq.

:38:57. > :39:05.In the present time we do not carry out those activities with Kurdish

:39:06. > :39:13.forces in Syria. They have shown their fighting abilities. Is it not

:39:14. > :39:21.a concern that the further involvement of tribal groups and

:39:22. > :39:27.grips like the Muslim brotherhood will lead to further into conflict,

:39:28. > :39:33.as we have seen in Syria. Is it not better to engage with the grips with

:39:34. > :39:38.our coalition to deal with this problem properly and realistically.

:39:39. > :39:43.It is better than having wishful thinking about this issue. I do not

:39:44. > :39:49.think the two are mutually exclusive. I think it may be

:39:50. > :39:55.possible in the future, once we have established a transitional

:39:56. > :40:01.government in Syria. To rally a diverse opposition forces against

:40:02. > :40:19.ISO alongside what is left of the Syrian army. -- Isil. The special

:40:20. > :40:21.forces, logistics and target servers and military intelligence analysis

:40:22. > :40:28.and so forth. That is the most effective model we will be able to

:40:29. > :40:33.put together. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I welcome his statement today to the

:40:34. > :40:37.House and his ongoing commitment to bring statements back to us. The

:40:38. > :40:43.crisis in Syria has become a regional conflict, not just because

:40:44. > :40:48.of the impact of the so-called Islamic state but because of the

:40:49. > :40:52.refugee crisis as well. Does he agree we must continue to support

:40:53. > :41:00.the authorities in Jordan and Lebanon who have been so affected by

:41:01. > :41:06.the impact of refugees? And Turkey. We are working with all three

:41:07. > :41:10.countries and in particular with Jordan to try and bring forward a

:41:11. > :41:15.scheme that will allow refugees in Jordan to be able to access the

:41:16. > :41:18.labour market and to support the Jordanian economy in a way that

:41:19. > :41:27.allows them to engage with that foreground. In parallel with

:41:28. > :41:36.military action with 2-mac against IIS, we must work harder to support

:41:37. > :41:41.Syrian refugees. This is supported by a range of organisations. It

:41:42. > :41:45.would allow more vulnerable refugees, beyond the 20,000 agreed

:41:46. > :41:53.by the government. This is something the UK Government will support? I

:41:54. > :42:01.think he has asked this question to the Prime Minister and the pie

:42:02. > :42:04.minister has been clear we think we have got our position like rights to

:42:05. > :42:12.Michael Wright. -- the Prime Minister. He will look at the

:42:13. > :42:20.question of orphaned children and I will remind him of that commitment.

:42:21. > :42:23.I to join with other members welcoming the statement. I welcome

:42:24. > :42:32.the news that Ministers have been urging the UN envoy to help women's

:42:33. > :42:40.grips. Can he update the House on the response to these

:42:41. > :42:45.representations. Not great news to report on that front. The gender

:42:46. > :42:53.balance in the meeting was disappointing. Given that it was

:42:54. > :42:58.happening around about the time that Saudi Arabia itself was making a

:42:59. > :43:02.historic step forward in women's participation in its particle

:43:03. > :43:12.system, it is disappointing. We have given feedback on that and we are

:43:13. > :43:18.focused on this issue. Should we ponder with some scepticism the

:43:19. > :43:26.apparently evermore pivotal role that is given to Saudi Arabia in

:43:27. > :43:31.this current situation. Not just because of the issues being faced in

:43:32. > :43:38.this conflict but also because of the principles that the Foreign

:43:39. > :43:44.Secretary noted a broken every day for Saudi Arabian citizens and for

:43:45. > :43:51.themselves. Will the UK Government and others be trying to shepherd the

:43:52. > :43:58.opposition will be leaving that role to Saudi Arabia? We have provided

:43:59. > :44:02.support to the opposition in logistical terms, in trying to

:44:03. > :44:10.prepare its role as a negotiating convention. We will continue to do

:44:11. > :44:16.so. Nobody should underestimate the power that Saudi Arabia has because

:44:17. > :44:22.of the position of the King of Saudi Arabia as the custodian of the two

:44:23. > :44:26.holy mosques. That is the unique power to bring together people who

:44:27. > :44:31.do not particularly want to sit in a room together and force them to

:44:32. > :44:36.engage with each other. In a storm we need to work with partners who

:44:37. > :44:44.have the capabilities that we need. Saudi Arabia has those capabilities.

:44:45. > :44:50.Syria needs political stability. We may have to deal with the Assad

:44:51. > :44:55.regime in the short term. Will he agree that the regime cannot be part

:44:56. > :45:03.of the long-term solution, even if other regional partners support his

:45:04. > :45:07.dictatorship. Our clear position is for moral and practical purposes. We

:45:08. > :45:11.will not get a solution here that involves a sad being a long-term

:45:12. > :45:19.part of the political structure in Syria. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Can I

:45:20. > :45:28.welcome the early reporting of this very important subject to many in

:45:29. > :45:37.the House. Can I welcome the political and diplomatic efforts

:45:38. > :45:42.that have clearly been undertaken. Those diplomatic efforts involving

:45:43. > :45:50.Saudi Arabia and the Muslim world at the show. There are two points that

:45:51. > :45:52.we have to acknowledge, many of those Muslim countries are under

:45:53. > :46:06.attack from Diane Shan other terrorists. -- dimensional. We have

:46:07. > :46:13.to use that very carefully. I would urge the government to continue

:46:14. > :46:21.those conversations. If they are to be defeated properly, it is not just

:46:22. > :46:35.the body, it is the evil ideology. On the issue of civilian deaths, the

:46:36. > :46:41.reality is tens of thousands of civilians did lose their lives in

:46:42. > :46:51.Iraq. Tens of thousands did lose their lives in Afghanistan. What

:46:52. > :46:55.assurances can he give me? Hundreds of thousands have lost their lives

:46:56. > :47:02.in Syria and people are continuing to lose their lives in Syria, at the

:47:03. > :47:13.hands of their systematic murder and a sound's the bombing. I can give

:47:14. > :47:18.him no assurance that we will not seek similar levels of casualties in

:47:19. > :47:29.Syria. The only way we can seek to prevent them is to bring the Civil

:47:30. > :47:46.War to an end and bring the rule of Daesh two an end. We are committed

:47:47. > :47:59.to defeating Daesh in Syria. Anyone of them can be attacked by Daesh

:48:00. > :48:03.order affiliated groups. We have two not only destroyed the

:48:04. > :48:07.manifestations of this organisation, we have two destroy the underpinning

:48:08. > :48:16.ideology. That would be a longer task and it will not be completed in

:48:17. > :48:21.my lifetime. I am pleased we are targeting the oil fields. Can you

:48:22. > :48:29.tell the House why it is only now we have joined the coalition that we

:48:30. > :48:40.are hitting these oil fields. Either other places we should be hitting? I

:48:41. > :48:46.may have missed something in his question. The simple answer is

:48:47. > :48:51.because they are in Syria. Before the few days ago we were not allowed

:48:52. > :49:02.to target in Syria. We needed to take the fight to Daesh an Syria.

:49:03. > :49:12.Ticket to its economic support -- take it to. In the debate just two

:49:13. > :49:21.weeks ago we were told that Daesh represented the head of a snake and

:49:22. > :49:29.they posed a threat to the security of the United Kingdom. What action

:49:30. > :49:39.has been taken by the RAF to stop Daesh and if no action has been

:49:40. > :49:45.taken, why not? I cannot talk about individual targets and attacks. He

:49:46. > :49:50.is right. The focus was in the debate about the command and control

:49:51. > :49:55.headquarters. That has to be the target if we are to destroy them. We

:49:56. > :50:01.have to go about this deliberately and I think rushing to strike them

:50:02. > :50:06.in its headquarters is not necessarily the best way to go about

:50:07. > :50:12.the task. I am not a military strategist and I do not think it

:50:13. > :50:17.would be sensible for politicians to try and set the military plan. What

:50:18. > :50:27.I do know is targeting the leadership Daesh of in such a busy

:50:28. > :50:30.city will require planning and a great deal of intelligence and

:50:31. > :50:41.surveillance data and the proper analysis of that data. I welcome his

:50:42. > :50:49.commitment to a political solution and peace talks. We need to include

:50:50. > :50:56.you wide range of countries in order to ensure all parties get around the

:50:57. > :51:02.table in Syria. One of the great achievements of the Vienna process

:51:03. > :51:07.is that Iran as well as Saudi Arabia is engaged. Two countries who do not

:51:08. > :51:18.normally talk to each other are talking to each other in Vienna, or

:51:19. > :51:23.this week in New York. Hearing what you said about civilian casualties,

:51:24. > :51:26.the effect of any warming is too minty in the flow of refugees

:51:27. > :51:39.interview Rip. What is the Government doing about refugee

:51:40. > :51:45.status for refugees in camps whose primary family is in Britain? Key as

:51:46. > :51:52.acid is specific and detailed question. I would be cancelling my

:51:53. > :51:57.arm if I were to answer. I will write to him and place a copy of my

:51:58. > :52:00.letter in the library. I will need to speak to the development

:52:01. > :52:19.secretary before answering. The Financial Times reported that

:52:20. > :52:23.Daesh supported Syria and Iraq into key factors, death and taxes. The

:52:24. > :52:31.sale of oil revenue. What can the Secretary of State tell us about the

:52:32. > :52:44.affect our hero strikes are having about economic growth in the rural

:52:45. > :52:51.area of Syria. Close to inevitability death and tax, are

:52:52. > :52:56.immediately unavoidable as they are in Daesh territories, as they are in

:52:57. > :53:06.many other places worldwide. There are some reports that Daesh are

:53:07. > :53:11.facing financial stress. Funding has been cut and payment to fighters

:53:12. > :53:15.have been cut or delayed. This is still a very well funded

:53:16. > :53:20.organisation but the huge one-off bonanza that they acquired in the

:53:21. > :53:26.early days of the surge into Iraq where they were capturing hundreds

:53:27. > :53:31.of thousands of dollars in cash and bank and simply taking away as

:53:32. > :53:35.ended. I think they are facing a little more pressure financially

:53:36. > :53:42.than they were back then. We intend to keep tightening the screws.

:53:43. > :53:49.Canley Secretary of State say more about what has been done regarding

:53:50. > :54:01.the Iraqi Government and SUNY? They are the mainstay in that area. --

:54:02. > :54:05.SUNY. The expertise of many people love gone from Iraq into that area.

:54:06. > :54:10.Can you say more about what pressures can be brought up on Daesh

:54:11. > :54:15.to deal with them in the long run? We are working very closely with the

:54:16. > :54:18.Iraqi Government and supporting the Prime Minister, remains committed to

:54:19. > :54:25.the programme of outreach to the SUNY committee in Iraq. He faces

:54:26. > :54:30.challenges delivering that programme. His immediate predecessor

:54:31. > :54:35.as opposed and there is a significant bloc in parliament that

:54:36. > :54:39.is making it impossible to progress with two key pieces of legislation.

:54:40. > :54:43.The creation of a National Guard that with the regional -based forces

:54:44. > :54:50.composed of groups that reflected the liturgy and confessional

:54:51. > :55:04.allegiance of the regions -- the ethnicity. And beady participation

:55:05. > :55:14.rare about the collapse of the Assad regime -- the bass regime, with so

:55:15. > :55:26.many people into eyesore. The brains were former Baptist military from

:55:27. > :55:34.the Iraqi regime. I was such a key part of the argument for bombing

:55:35. > :55:48.debate. My honourable friend, the Minister

:55:49. > :55:51.for the Armed Forces, tells me that there is a certain amount of

:55:52. > :56:05.operational information available in the golf .uk website on a daily

:56:06. > :56:14.basis. -- gov.uk the website. The secretary set out the complexities

:56:15. > :56:19.of establishing a civilian safe haven on the ground in Syria,

:56:20. > :56:24.notwithstanding that, given the intensification of both the Civil

:56:25. > :56:28.War and our own battles against Daesh, with the Foreign Secretary

:56:29. > :56:36.perhaps enter into dialogue with the neighbours of Syria to see whether

:56:37. > :56:41.they or the Islamic military coalition that he set out in his

:56:42. > :56:44.statement would be willing to provide those grounds of ports that

:56:45. > :56:53.are needed to provide a safe haven for civilians? I do regularly talk

:56:54. > :56:59.to my Turkish colleagues and they have, as you know, been a promoter

:57:00. > :57:06.of the idea of creating safe havens in the north, along the border, with

:57:07. > :57:10.Turkey. All proposals have been founded on the question of, who will

:57:11. > :57:15.provide the defensive air cover to those people? Given that there is a

:57:16. > :57:21.very sophisticated Syrian defence system. Now, in the presence of

:57:22. > :57:35.Russian air to air defence capability in the area. Regarding

:57:36. > :57:40.the RAF tycoons in the year in Syria, they have not only been

:57:41. > :57:50.targeting targets on the ground, they have been using your missiles

:57:51. > :57:56.to shoot in the air. The only enemy we have in Syria is Daesh, there is

:57:57. > :58:03.no evidence that they have any aircrafts. Who do we need to shoot

:58:04. > :58:05.down in Syria? That is a matter of operational security and not

:58:06. > :58:12.something I can comment on any house. Following on from my

:58:13. > :58:16.honourable friend, is not the case that the reason we have not attacked

:58:17. > :58:29.the head of the snake is because Assad said -- as I said, the state

:58:30. > :58:37.is indeed a Hydra. There is now talks of stretching our support into

:58:38. > :58:44.Libya and then north Africa, what we have is a plan to attack Daesh, not

:58:45. > :58:47.a plan to defeat them. When will we get a proper plan for dealing with

:58:48. > :58:54.the problem in the context in which it actually exists? First of all, I

:58:55. > :58:58.would say, don't believe everything you read any newspaper, especially

:58:59. > :59:04.not at week ends. As I have said before, this is a complex military

:59:05. > :59:11.task that requires careful planning and execution. I am sorry if it does

:59:12. > :59:15.not sit the honourable gentleman that 14 days later, he has not seen

:59:16. > :59:20.the level of attack any particular spot that he, as a military

:59:21. > :59:25.strategist, would to see. I have two deferred to the military strategists

:59:26. > :59:36.in the military defence, and the combined operation centres, and let

:59:37. > :59:41.them act upon this. The Foreign Secretary was right to highlight the

:59:42. > :59:45.importance of Syria's neighbours and in particular Arab states. I am sure

:59:46. > :59:50.from the secretary of defence's comments that the campaign was

:59:51. > :59:55.joined in the early days but have since been preoccupied by the

:59:56. > :59:59.conflict in Yemen, I am wondering if the Foreign Secretary is considered

:00:00. > :00:06.by that and if there has been an increase in cooperation with our

:00:07. > :00:14.allies. There has been a key crease by Arab allies and we except the

:00:15. > :00:20.challenges on the southern border. -- a decrease. Dogs are currently

:00:21. > :00:31.going on between the two sides in the Yemen Civil War and a ceasefire

:00:32. > :00:38.of sorts has been spoken of over the last few days. -- talks are

:00:39. > :00:40.currently going on. We are seeing the beginning of the end of the

:00:41. > :00:51.military phase of the conflict in Yemen.

:00:52. > :01:03.Any previous statement, the Prime Minister mentioned the dedication

:01:04. > :01:11.and the coalition with Russia, regarding the shooting down of a

:01:12. > :01:18.Russian jet by Turkey. The house is heard loud and clear about the

:01:19. > :01:23.difficulties, I wondered if you could tell is how because it is for

:01:24. > :01:28.the safety of others as well as Russia that we have this

:01:29. > :01:36.understanding working. It is about the conviction. It is about being

:01:37. > :01:41.sure that we are not flying in the same airspace that, by accident,

:01:42. > :01:46.they might come into conflict. That has been working well. Coalition

:01:47. > :01:53.aircraft and Russian aircraft are generally operating in different

:01:54. > :01:56.areas. The Turkish aircraft in question in the incident he is

:01:57. > :02:02.referring to which tragically led to the death of a Russian Lieutenant

:02:03. > :02:09.Colonel, the pilot, were defending Turkish airspace. Routine air

:02:10. > :02:14.defence patrol, like we fly in the UK and the baby in the same position

:02:15. > :02:23.if our airspace threatened or challenged. The coalition is working

:02:24. > :02:30.well, but the conflict, the tension, along the border, where Turkish

:02:31. > :02:36.aircrafts were flying in the space and in Syrian airspace remained and

:02:37. > :02:42.we are keen to see any risk in that area de-escalates and we are working

:02:43. > :02:50.hard to do so. The Foreign Secretary said that a minimum of ?1 billion

:02:51. > :02:56.has been put aside. Is that a blank cheque? What figures is that based

:02:57. > :02:59.on and over what time you will likely spend? It is not a blank

:03:00. > :03:06.cheque, Mr Speaker. It says on the top line is people of Syria and in

:03:07. > :03:10.the next line ?1 billion so it is clearly not a blank cheque. What the

:03:11. > :03:14.Prime Minister has done is make clear that we will remain committed

:03:15. > :03:18.to the Syrian people through this conflict, through the formation of a

:03:19. > :03:22.transitional Government and in the rebuilding of the country after the

:03:23. > :03:26.creation of that transitional Government in the end of the

:03:27. > :03:32.conflict. He made very clear any debate two weeks ago that ?1 billion

:03:33. > :03:35.is not the limit of our support for the Syrian people, it is a first

:03:36. > :03:48.instalment that they are committed to. Order. Point of order. I am

:03:49. > :03:54.starting to panic. You will recall only 2nd of December, the Prime

:03:55. > :03:58.Minister responded to a question from one of my friends, the leader

:03:59. > :04:04.of the Liberal Democrats that he was happy to look on an issue to see if

:04:05. > :04:08.Britain could do more to fulfil our moral responsibilities. The Prime

:04:09. > :04:16.Minister has been silent on the matter since, and you clarify

:04:17. > :04:19.whether in the house, when the moral responsibility rules are in play,

:04:20. > :04:23.the Prime Minister should return to the house to speak about how he

:04:24. > :04:28.intends on filling those moral responsibilities. The matter is

:04:29. > :04:37.certainly important what it is treated off, I am bound to tell him,

:04:38. > :04:41.the bible of parliamentary precedent and procedure, nor in Standing

:04:42. > :04:46.Orders. Therefore, although it may seem imperative in the mind of the

:04:47. > :04:49.honourable gentleman and indeed his leader that the Prime Minister

:04:50. > :04:56.should return to the house to satisfy them on this matter before

:04:57. > :05:04.the Christmas recess, there is no procedural imperative is that effect

:05:05. > :05:12.-- to that effect. The honourable gentleman models shame and I am sure

:05:13. > :05:16.that it is a matter that he will return to before the Christmas

:05:17. > :05:20.recess. We shall see. I think we will have a change of party for a

:05:21. > :05:25.moment but he will return to the honourable gentleman from Leeds.

:05:26. > :05:36.This will be my first point of order.

:05:37. > :05:43.CHEERING The Department for Work and Pensions

:05:44. > :05:48.will operate as usual in the run-up to Christmas, meaning people will be

:05:49. > :05:52.sanctioned up until and on Christmas Eve. How can I hold the secretary of

:05:53. > :05:57.state to account on this matter and have it dealt with positively so we

:05:58. > :06:05.don't have a Scrooge like approach on the run-up to Christmas? I think

:06:06. > :06:13.the honourable lady has just done it and is one parliamentary day. The

:06:14. > :06:16.schedule for tomorrow is what it is and I am not at all sure that either

:06:17. > :06:21.which facilitate the honourable lady in that respect, but there are other

:06:22. > :06:27.opportunities on every other parliamentary day and honourable

:06:28. > :06:30.lady will have to use ingenuity which is not inconsiderable to see

:06:31. > :06:39.if she can refer to the matter again and extract some sort of ministerial

:06:40. > :06:42.response in the chamber. I think the honourable gentleman is going to

:06:43. > :06:51.think he is always left until last unless I call them now. We will come

:06:52. > :06:58.to the honourable member from Leeds. Thank you. The latter question from

:06:59. > :07:05.my honourable friend in Edinburgh and Leith was speaking about the two

:07:06. > :07:10.men from Marley being arrested in the capital city for having

:07:11. > :07:28.consensual sex, it appears they were arrested for being gay. -- Mullally.

:07:29. > :07:32.-- now we. I hope that this will be dealt with because it is never heard

:07:33. > :07:39.because of the noise levels that prelude it. What issues are the

:07:40. > :07:44.regarding noise levels and how can they will take this? I'm very

:07:45. > :07:49.grateful to the honourable gentleman on the news on a very serious matter

:07:50. > :07:56.that he report is frankly horrifying, absolutely horrifying

:07:57. > :08:01.news indeed and of course there is a direct for the secretary of state in

:08:02. > :08:09.view of our continuing commitment to Mullally, where this happened and is

:08:10. > :08:14.similar. Under half of the house, I can empathise with what has said. So

:08:15. > :08:17.far as the noise at question Time is concerned, it is very disturbing and

:08:18. > :08:22.I do often say to the house that we are dealing with extremely important

:08:23. > :08:27.matters. In some cases important matters not only from our point of

:08:28. > :08:31.view but two people elsewhere in the world who are in very much more

:08:32. > :08:37.vulnerable situations than we are. Common courtesy would dictate that

:08:38. > :08:40.there should be a civilised atmosphere and the questions and

:08:41. > :08:45.answers should be heard. The honourable gentleman knows that it

:08:46. > :08:50.is merrily, to be fair, not a calculated insult, colleagues are

:08:51. > :08:53.very excited and animated about the upcoming Prime Minister's Questions

:08:54. > :09:01.and they are engaging in often protracted and noisy conversations.

:09:02. > :09:03.I can only encourage them to acknowledge their responsibilities

:09:04. > :09:12.to each other and the people concerned. The honourable gentleman

:09:13. > :09:18.makes an important part about rotation. There is no procedural bar

:09:19. > :09:22.to rotation. If there is a significant body of members reveal

:09:23. > :09:27.that it is wrong for one department to have an extended period, they

:09:28. > :09:32.should not have to occupy a very difficult slot. They can make

:09:33. > :09:38.representations. I can solve the problem overnight. To the Leader of

:09:39. > :09:48.the House and indeed to the chair of the Procedure Committee who is

:09:49. > :09:49.unfailingly helpful and courteous in his dealings with members of the

:09:50. > :10:01.house. Point of order. Thank you. I do not

:10:02. > :10:11.mind waiting at all. I want to share some very good news. Nice have

:10:12. > :10:19.approved the drugs for the sufferers of the disease and their families

:10:20. > :10:24.and themselves. I seek your advice because this is a hugely important

:10:25. > :10:28.matter. There have been a number of questions in this house. With no

:10:29. > :10:34.recess adjournment debate tomorrow and very limited time for a

:10:35. > :10:41.statement from the Department of Health. I seek your advice on how it

:10:42. > :10:48.might be raised with the time left we have considering the importance

:10:49. > :11:01.of this and the other diseases which do not have this good news. There

:11:02. > :11:07.are two points in response to his point of order. First, I am

:11:08. > :11:13.delighted to hear that excellent news. Although the honourable

:11:14. > :11:17.gentleman was too modest to draw direct attention to his own work on

:11:18. > :11:31.the subject. I think members across the whole house no he has been very

:11:32. > :11:36.persistent in his efforts. It is magnificent. We are here to serve

:11:37. > :11:42.other people. This is a very good example of where that has been done,

:11:43. > :11:46.not least due to the efforts of backbenchers like themselves and a

:11:47. > :11:52.number of his colleagues. I will come to the Right honourable

:11:53. > :11:56.gentleman. Secondly, there is every opportunity for statements to be

:11:57. > :12:01.made tomorrow. Ministers will have heard what the honourable gentleman

:12:02. > :12:05.said. Whether a minister wants to come to announce and elaborate on

:12:06. > :12:10.good news and answer queries about other categories of people who might

:12:11. > :12:17.also be helped, I do not know. He also knows that whether a statement

:12:18. > :12:20.is offered or not, there is an opportunity for members to submit

:12:21. > :12:27.urgent questions. The honourable gentleman has done it many times

:12:28. > :12:32.himself. Two. I cannot give a commit to a commitment in advance. He knows

:12:33. > :12:37.that if he does not extract a commitment by a minister to an oral

:12:38. > :12:42.statement tomorrow, he chooses to submit an urgent question, I will

:12:43. > :12:47.see that urgent question and I will read it in fool. It will be

:12:48. > :12:58.considered and adjudicated upon in the morning meeting. I hope that is

:12:59. > :13:02.helpful to him. In that context, had you received any indication from the

:13:03. > :13:09.Government that you minister intends to make a statement tomorrow about

:13:10. > :13:15.the outcome of the consultation that they are going to announce tomorrow.

:13:16. > :13:20.This is a matter of huge public concern. 87% of the jobs in the

:13:21. > :13:24.solar industry at risk if the Government does not change its

:13:25. > :13:30.proposals. It will be unacceptable for this announcement to be sneaked

:13:31. > :13:33.out on the last Thursday before Christmas, when many members will

:13:34. > :13:44.not be here. I hope that as a matter you will take up on our behalf. I am

:13:45. > :13:48.not aware of any intention on be on behalf of the minister to make a

:13:49. > :13:54.statement tomorrow. I must say to the honourable gentleman, the fact

:13:55. > :13:59.that I am not aware at this point is unexceptionable. There is no reason

:14:00. > :14:05.why I would have been notified. It does not mean the Government is not

:14:06. > :14:09.planning to make a statement. As he knows, that is little comfort to

:14:10. > :14:13.him. There might be an oral statement and there might not be. It

:14:14. > :14:23.is possible boom might be a written statement. -- possible there might

:14:24. > :14:28.be. Tomorrow is the last day and some members may not be present.

:14:29. > :14:34.That is unfortunate and I cannot do anything about it. As I said

:14:35. > :14:39.earlier, there is an opportunity for urgent questions for members on the

:14:40. > :14:42.matter of concern for them. It is open to the right honourable

:14:43. > :14:47.gentleman to submit an urgent question. I inform colleagues that

:14:48. > :14:53.on a Thursday such applications have to be in by 8:15am. I am sure the

:14:54. > :15:00.honourable gentleman and the right honourable gentleman are both eager

:15:01. > :15:05.beavers and early birds. If there are no further points of order, the

:15:06. > :15:12.appetite has been satisfied at least for today, we come now for the ten

:15:13. > :15:17.minute rule Motion that the honourable gentleman has been so

:15:18. > :15:23.patiently waiting. Mr Speaker, I would like to add that leave be

:15:24. > :15:32.given for a bill to bring in the Representation of the People

:15:33. > :15:36.(Proportional Representation) to make provision about changing

:15:37. > :15:41.constituencies and their number and for connected purposes. Mr Speaker,

:15:42. > :15:45.it was said in 1830 the Duke of Wellington as Prime Minister

:15:46. > :15:48.declared himself opposed to any reforms of Parliament due to the

:15:49. > :15:52.state of the representation of people had been designed by

:15:53. > :16:01.Providence. He said that cannot be improved. He was deeply wrong. A few

:16:02. > :16:07.years later it was passed. The means of representing the people here is

:16:08. > :16:11.an improved but there's one that has lived on and as strong today.

:16:12. > :16:16.Members of this house do not seem to question a system who have collected

:16:17. > :16:22.each and every one of us who have been elected today. I put it before

:16:23. > :16:25.the House that the means of electing the first of comments, the first

:16:26. > :16:31.past the post system is no longer fit for purpose. It leads to a

:16:32. > :16:38.narrow and an representative politics. It leads to poor

:16:39. > :16:48.decision-making, poors Pearly collected collections. By failing to

:16:49. > :16:54.produce representation that truly reflects the diversity of political

:16:55. > :16:59.views. My bill modestly entitled the Representation of the People

:17:00. > :17:07.(Proportional Representation) seeks to implement the same system as in

:17:08. > :17:16.Scotland, the additional member system. A local MP with the

:17:17. > :17:21.constituency link and something that reflects the intention of the

:17:22. > :17:31.electorate. There would still be strong 1-party Government if the

:17:32. > :17:35.constituents want it. I do believe that our current voting system is

:17:36. > :17:42.bad for politics in the UK. It forces the major parties to put

:17:43. > :17:48.their forces on a number of constituencies that they feel are

:17:49. > :17:52.important seats. This creates a two tier system of political engagement.

:17:53. > :17:58.We know in some parts of the country opposition parties put up no more

:17:59. > :18:03.than a token effort. Most worryingly it creates false electoral deserts

:18:04. > :18:10.were all regions of the country are dominated by one party. First past

:18:11. > :18:16.the post is therefore been a huge factor in how removed people feel

:18:17. > :18:25.from politics. It is a fact that our general collections have been become

:18:26. > :18:32..com less representative. Something has gotten terribly wrong. It should

:18:33. > :18:36.be a source of national concern that the party with the most votes has

:18:37. > :18:41.actually lost the general election. If that were to happen in the modern

:18:42. > :18:48.day, we would face a constitutional crisis. I was two wish to stress it

:18:49. > :18:55.is not to dispute the Conservative Government. No electoral system

:18:56. > :18:59.would have produced the Labour Government in 2015. The result of

:19:00. > :19:05.the last election should concern anyone with an interest in democracy

:19:06. > :19:10.or you two unity. In the south east the Tories got 51% of the vote but

:19:11. > :19:25.took 92% of the seats. 47% of the vote and 90 two present. In Scotland

:19:26. > :19:32.the SNP won an impressive 50% of the vote but a disproportionate 90 5% of

:19:33. > :19:37.receipts. The Lib Dems got more votes than the SNP but be treated as

:19:38. > :19:53.if they got less. You could have only one MP. The UK Independence

:19:54. > :19:58.party. If we do not, they should get the MPs be voted for. The electoral

:19:59. > :20:05.system should not write off large parts of the country to one party or

:20:06. > :20:09.another. That forces those parties to face rationally. This then

:20:10. > :20:18.creates a perpetual cycle of disengagement. There is no robust

:20:19. > :20:22.competition of views. Because of the an representative nature of moderate

:20:23. > :20:26.elections, the governments are prone to make poor decisions or not govern

:20:27. > :20:36.well. There are times when the British people give a clear mandate

:20:37. > :20:41.for change. 1905, 1945, 1997. There are other times when that has not

:20:42. > :20:46.happened. If that is the British people's verdict, they should be a

:20:47. > :20:53.coalition or minority governments. Using an electoral system to create

:20:54. > :21:04.an artificial mandate for a 1-party rule is not good for Government. Be

:21:05. > :21:10.it the Coalition Government in the last Parliament, the Liberal

:21:11. > :21:14.Democrat pack of the 1970s. Or the historical example of the Irish

:21:15. > :21:23.nationalists. There are absurdities of the status quo. One party

:21:24. > :21:29.majority collection in Hollywood under the proportional system I am

:21:30. > :21:37.posing be introduced. I also know people do not wish minority parties

:21:38. > :21:42.like the UK Independence party elected. I share their concerns but

:21:43. > :21:47.if people vote for them then that is what they should get. You defeat

:21:48. > :21:52.your opponents by debate and campaign. Not by reading the rules.

:21:53. > :21:58.The alienation caused by rigging the rules in your favour will create

:21:59. > :22:04.resentment that those minority parties will win first past the

:22:05. > :22:09.post. The BNP won a substantial number of council seats in the

:22:10. > :22:16.north-west if you years ago. I am no Johnny come lately to this cause. I

:22:17. > :22:20.am prepared to admit to this house. I did travel be long journey from

:22:21. > :22:27.Sunderland to Newcastle to hear the late Roy Jenkins meeting. I do now

:22:28. > :22:33.believe this issue has assumed a greater urgency. It is the

:22:34. > :22:38.consequences of further constitutional change in Scotland,

:22:39. > :22:44.being in the form of independence or the much greater devolution. Such

:22:45. > :22:51.developments have profound implications for the rest of the

:22:52. > :23:00.union. I do not believe the electoral system can be maintained.

:23:01. > :23:05.We did not want to admit that first past the post Labour has not won a

:23:06. > :23:10.majority in Labour alone. A fairer and more competitive system would be

:23:11. > :23:14.better for everyone because it would render such calculations redundant

:23:15. > :23:23.and create a one nation system for a country that needs it.

:23:24. > :23:40.A mac in conclusion, many parties are in favour of a single electoral

:23:41. > :23:47.vote. The stereotypes of political parties and the people who in this

:23:48. > :23:50.place are often helpful and unfair. We have to work together in the

:23:51. > :23:57.national interest, any political system that has an obligation to do

:23:58. > :24:00.so. Therefore, I am making a plea today, not just a proposal voting

:24:01. > :24:12.systems but for a patriotic voting system where are everyone all over

:24:13. > :24:25.the country are treated equally, no matter your background or belief.

:24:26. > :24:31.The question is, to have honourable representation of the bill. I am

:24:32. > :24:36.slightly surprised that I congratulate my honourable friend.

:24:37. > :24:39.He did once it at the feet of Roy Jenkins, not something that people

:24:40. > :24:45.are normally prepared to admit to. I find it astonishing that in a month

:24:46. > :24:49.where the considerable advances made in France that someone in this house

:24:50. > :24:54.should be arguing for changing the election system. I do not want a

:24:55. > :24:58.detainee house or two once I will not going to detail about how

:24:59. > :25:01.damaging this proposal would be for effective governments, how it

:25:02. > :25:06.transfers power away from constituents and from local parties

:25:07. > :25:17.to party leaders, kitchen cabinets and bureaucrats. How it empowers

:25:18. > :25:24.parties in favour of Government, how it directs many MPs in your

:25:25. > :25:27.constituency and how it is, interestingly enough, in countries

:25:28. > :25:31.that have the systems, it always has to be amended and changed as these

:25:32. > :25:40.problems start to come through. I will just focus on Germany. Germany

:25:41. > :25:42.has actually changed the system, introduced thresholds to deal with

:25:43. > :25:49.exactly the problem is that I am describing. I will just focus on how

:25:50. > :25:52.it fires in the face of British public opinion, made absolutely

:25:53. > :26:04.clear in the referendum by more than two to one. More than 68% voted no,

:26:05. > :26:13.32% voted yes. Out of the counting errors, only ten recorded yes votes.

:26:14. > :26:18.The inner London boroughs of Lambeth, Camden, Hackney, Haringey,

:26:19. > :26:22.Islington, how they used to feature in headlines of the loony left

:26:23. > :26:29.councils... LAUGHTER

:26:30. > :26:36.The great university described once in the city of lost causes,

:26:37. > :26:40.Cambridge, and Edinburgh Central and Glasgow where our colleagues further

:26:41. > :26:45.along work directly, the seats of the two universities in those

:26:46. > :26:52.cities. Interestingly enough, my honourable friend's seat voted more

:26:53. > :27:02.than two to one, they actually voted 72, 20 eight. I have to say that

:27:03. > :27:16.they voted a bigger margin than my own borough of Sandwell which was

:27:17. > :27:24.78, 20 nine. . At 29. What part of know is that you not understand? --

:27:25. > :27:30.what part of no do you not understand? As many as are of the

:27:31. > :27:39.opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". Clear up the lobby. -- clear

:27:40. > :29:30.the lobby. in a As many as are of the opinion,

:29:31. > :29:31.say "aye". To the contrary, "no".. -- As many as are of the opinion,

:29:32. > :37:29.say "aye". To the contrary, "no".. Order, order. The ayes to the right

:37:30. > :37:42.were 27, the noes to the left 124. The ayes to the right, 27. The noes

:37:43. > :37:45.to the left, 124. The noes have. Order, order. I have now to announce

:37:46. > :37:55.the result of the deferred division on the question pertaining to

:37:56. > :38:06.petroleum. The ayes Cabinet. The ayes have it.

:38:07. > :38:39.the ayes have it, the ayes have it. Order, order.

:38:40. > :38:50.Order. The Armed Forces Bill committee. We begin with clause one,

:38:51. > :38:59.the question is clause one. Minister, thank you. The primary

:39:00. > :39:04.purpose of this bill is to provide for the continuation of the Armed

:39:05. > :39:13.Forces act 2006, which would otherwise expire at the end of 2016.

:39:14. > :39:17.Clause one as for the continuation. It allows further renewal there

:39:18. > :39:25.after ordering Council for up to a year at a time but not beyond the

:39:26. > :39:30.year of 2021. The 2006 act lays out the provisions for the Armed Forces

:39:31. > :39:36.of command, discipline and justice. The 2006 at sets out procedure is to

:39:37. > :39:42.enforce the duty of members of Armed Forces to be lawful commands. The

:39:43. > :39:55.expiry of the 2006 act would be end the powers and... Thank you. What a

:39:56. > :40:02.pleasure it is to serve under your chairmanship. I think this is my

:40:03. > :40:06.third Armed Forces Bill. Can I say that in terms of previous bills,

:40:07. > :40:16.this is a minnow compare to the 2006 Bill. It does cause important issues

:40:17. > :40:20.which affect not only the operation of our Armed Forces, but the

:40:21. > :40:28.discipline that is needed to ensure the effectiveness of the two Her

:40:29. > :40:35.Majesty's Armed Forces. It is an important constitutional bill as it

:40:36. > :40:39.reaffirms the need for a standing army which we need to protect the

:40:40. > :40:47.freedoms which we all come to rely upon in this country. I look forward

:40:48. > :40:53.to the progress of this bill and the amendments which will stand in my

:40:54. > :41:01.name later in the proceedings. We on these benches support the bill with

:41:02. > :41:10.the consent of Parliament to be maintaining an army and it one of

:41:11. > :41:15.the acts is to give the legal basis for them to exist as a force. To

:41:16. > :41:20.continue and develop our Armed Forces as they undertake their very

:41:21. > :41:30.difficult jobs. We do support the changes to the bill. The publication

:41:31. > :41:39.of statistics. We want a seat robust legislation for our our two Armed

:41:40. > :41:48.Forces. Clause one part of the bill, as many... As many as are of the

:41:49. > :42:04.opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no" the ayes have it, the ayes have

:42:05. > :42:10.it currently is civilian subject to... Clause to extend the

:42:11. > :42:17.circumstances in which a commanding officer may require operation with

:42:18. > :42:21.such a test. There is testing with noses vision that the person being

:42:22. > :42:28.tested may have committed an offence. The only apply after the

:42:29. > :42:36.series accidents. The powers will fly in any maritime accident and

:42:37. > :42:42.other serious accidents. One that has resulted or created a risk of

:42:43. > :42:47.death, serious injury to a person or serious environmental harm involving

:42:48. > :42:52.critical functions. The results of the test can be used in support of

:42:53. > :42:58.any investigation arising from the accident. The new powers are similar

:42:59. > :43:03.to those provided to the civilian police. In relation to aviation and

:43:04. > :43:16.maritime accidents and the Road traffic act 1998 in relation to road

:43:17. > :43:25.traffic accidents. Kevin Jones. We support this clause. It brings into

:43:26. > :43:29.line the legislation which causes our Armed Forces and gives current

:43:30. > :43:38.officers the tools to investigate accident but to acquire word drugs

:43:39. > :43:44.or alcohol may have played a part in the cause of those incidents.

:43:45. > :43:51.Therefore we will support this. It is appropriate to require testing

:43:52. > :43:58.for drugs and alcohol after accidents for personnel carrying out

:43:59. > :44:04.duties. We support for the commanding officer to deal with

:44:05. > :44:13.these matters. It is for them to consider and deal with the action.

:44:14. > :44:22.Clause two part of the bill. The ayes have it, the ayes have it. We

:44:23. > :44:30.now come to clause three. We consider clause four and five. Thank

:44:31. > :44:36.you. I will discuss clauses three to five which relate to investigations

:44:37. > :44:41.charging together. They make a number of changes to provisions in

:44:42. > :44:45.part five of the 2006 act, which deal with the process of deciding

:44:46. > :44:49.whether a person should be charged with an offence under that act. This

:44:50. > :44:56.simple five this process. Currently some cases which cannot be dealt

:44:57. > :45:05.with by the officer must be referred to the commanding officer, and to

:45:06. > :45:11.the prosecution to decide on the prosecution. With clause three, it

:45:12. > :45:16.it provides were ever the there is significant evidence to charge an

:45:17. > :45:24.offence, the case must be sent to the service authority where a

:45:25. > :45:28.decision will be made. In all cases which cannot be dealt with by the

:45:29. > :45:33.commanding officer. However currently some of those cases have

:45:34. > :45:43.to be referred to the commanding officer and then to the D S P. This

:45:44. > :45:48.creates delay. This clause seeks to remove that. Another change is

:45:49. > :45:51.intended to deal with the problem that the 2006 act require some cases

:45:52. > :45:58.to be sent to the commanding officer to deal with. For example, when

:45:59. > :46:03.separate offences occurred during the same incident. This can result

:46:04. > :46:09.on separate decisions on whether to prosecute and separate trials. The

:46:10. > :46:13.service police will be able to refer a case to the service of

:46:14. > :46:19.prosecutions if, after consultation, the consider it appropriate to do so

:46:20. > :46:25.due to the connection with another case. Clause four makes a minor

:46:26. > :46:35.clarification. The referral of link cases. Currently if the commanding

:46:36. > :46:40.officer is required to deliver... The commanding officer will have to

:46:41. > :46:46.make the transfer under this clause. Clause five allows the charges to be

:46:47. > :46:51.brought itself. He cannot bring the charge directly at the moment but

:46:52. > :46:55.must say the commanding officer should bring the charge. These

:46:56. > :46:56.changes have the support of the Director of service of prosecution

:46:57. > :47:13.and the judge general. Just for clarification for the

:47:14. > :47:21.House. We are debating at these stages clauses three, four and five

:47:22. > :47:28.together. Thank you. I want to... Thank you for clarifying where we

:47:29. > :47:36.are in the process forward. I put this all together. If you could be

:47:37. > :47:40.with me on the process. You mentioned and you referred to the

:47:41. > :47:44.investigation of charges and three, four and five. I want to make a

:47:45. > :47:53.comment and ask a question in relation to that part. Very clearly

:47:54. > :47:57.we can see the process of which service personnel are charged with

:47:58. > :48:01.offences. I am assuming this will be achieved by reducing the number of

:48:02. > :48:07.cases they will bring charges. Not only will this provision make it

:48:08. > :48:11.easier to bring charges where appropriate, it will streamline the

:48:12. > :48:16.process of bureaucracy so that the commanding officers are free to go

:48:17. > :48:26.about other duties essential to the smooth running of all access parts

:48:27. > :48:33.of the armed services. Could you bear with me on this one. The second

:48:34. > :48:42.clause was alcohol and drugs. I want to make a comment. In the

:48:43. > :48:48.investigations for those I similar, not identical to the provisions bit

:48:49. > :48:57.on the act of 2003. The real ways and safety act 2003 provides for

:48:58. > :49:04.alcohol and drugs testing. The Armed Forces have crowded exemption. When

:49:05. > :49:08.it comes to the investigations and clauses three, four and five that we

:49:09. > :49:14.are now looking at, could we clarify the matter in relation to the new

:49:15. > :49:21.rules on drug and alcohol testing? How the investigations will do that

:49:22. > :49:25.as well. This will remedy the approach to alcohol and drug misuse

:49:26. > :49:32.in the Armed Forces as well as being more specific what crimes require a

:49:33. > :49:37.drug and alcohol test. It will make it easier for those in charge of the

:49:38. > :49:45.investigation. It is something that can only make our Armed Forces safer

:49:46. > :49:54.and more secure. I want to also position and ask a question. The

:49:55. > :50:01.investigation and charging, that is a new framework for community from

:50:02. > :50:07.prosecution. It will give the courts powers which the assistant

:50:08. > :50:16.prosecutors and investigators would be difficult to persuade 's service

:50:17. > :50:20.personnel to cooperate. That is a specific case to the investigations

:50:21. > :50:23.that are ongoing at this present time in Northern Ireland. I believe

:50:24. > :50:28.there is a positive development which will improve transparency. It

:50:29. > :50:37.will improve security of individuals. In Northern Ireland has

:50:38. > :50:46.been continued attempts to drag former soldiers names through the

:50:47. > :50:52.mud with allegations. I hope those at size of the bill that the people

:50:53. > :51:03.who fought terrorism in Northern Ireland will never be brought

:51:04. > :51:11.through the courts. Ultimately the prosecution, what role the Minister

:51:12. > :51:15.will play in it? We are keen to get a transparent method of

:51:16. > :51:21.investigation and if there is a prosecution and what that is based?

:51:22. > :51:25.There has to be protection for our brave service personnel. We'll be

:51:26. > :51:36.can, I think we should be given immunity. We must give them our fool

:51:37. > :51:46.support that they need. Full Support. There are a number of

:51:47. > :51:50.issues that need to be addressed. Because it is coming towards

:51:51. > :51:57.Christmas, we did let him go back slightly to clause two. We have been

:51:58. > :52:07.moving very rapidly and he will be seeking advice as we go along. I

:52:08. > :52:17.will not go backwards or forward. Can I just say, we support these new

:52:18. > :52:21.clauses. Clearly, in terms of the 2006 act is bedding in, these are

:52:22. > :52:26.things that will not only improve the system in terms of

:52:27. > :52:34.investigation, but also in terms of charge as well.

:52:35. > :52:42.The investigation and charging system has to be as efficient as

:52:43. > :52:49.possible. Thank you for allowing me to go back very briefly to clause

:52:50. > :52:59.two. On the previous cause that we have covered, the new powers reflect

:53:00. > :53:08.driving, driving, operating propelled machinery and the use of

:53:09. > :53:15.firearms with the covered by this act. There are some extra duties in

:53:16. > :53:18.which aren't covered by extra legislation which is why it does go

:53:19. > :53:24.beyond. With relation to this clause and the question as to whether we

:53:25. > :53:28.are effectively reducing the powers of the commanding officer, the

:53:29. > :53:31.change in procedure to be followed by the police following an

:53:32. > :53:35.investigation only relates to cases where they do not have jurisdiction

:53:36. > :53:44.in relation to the recommended charge. They can still be reflected

:53:45. > :53:48.back with the prosecution. If the powers are appropriate, the

:53:49. > :53:53.uncertain power to do nothing with be removed but it is, in any event,

:53:54. > :53:57.vulnerable to attack given that it applies to serious cases in which

:53:58. > :54:01.they service have to prove that a sufficient evidence to charge an

:54:02. > :54:06.individual with an offence. They can only be tried by a martial. The

:54:07. > :54:14.process means that the DST will have the power to bring a charge whereas

:54:15. > :54:28.currently only have power when directed by BD S P to do it. . They

:54:29. > :54:31.refer to when the they do not have power to do so already. The

:54:32. > :54:35.commanding officer would still be involved. When it comes to the other

:54:36. > :54:39.point that the honourable member raises, which will get you in due

:54:40. > :54:42.course because I am sure he will remain in his place until we do so.

:54:43. > :54:50.We will get to them in due course. remain in his place until we do so.

:54:51. > :54:56.We will get to them in due As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To

:54:57. > :55:04.the contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes have it. We will go

:55:05. > :55:09.over the following clauses together, four and five are part of the bill.

:55:10. > :55:15.As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I

:55:16. > :55:26.think the ayes habit, the ayes have it. We now come to clause six. Thank

:55:27. > :55:30.you. This clause increases from 12 to 24 monthly maximum period of a

:55:31. > :55:37.sentence being suspended by the court martial. The court-martial

:55:38. > :55:43.already has the option of suspending sentences for up to 12 months, there

:55:44. > :55:48.is a unique military system offering rehabilitation arrangements. This

:55:49. > :55:55.would provide the court-martial with greater flexibility in appropriate

:55:56. > :55:59.circumstances. It sets out the relevant factors for suspending

:56:00. > :56:01.sentences, these are, whether the offender can retrieve his or her

:56:02. > :56:06.good name without undergoing a permitted sentence, where there has

:56:07. > :56:13.been significant... LOSS OF SOUND

:56:14. > :56:19.Between the trial and effectively can amiability themselves, where

:56:20. > :56:24.they have shown remorse and reparation for any damage caused,

:56:25. > :56:30.where the art young or inexperienced and it is an isolated occurrence,

:56:31. > :56:34.where it does not involve serious violence toward a superior officer

:56:35. > :56:42.or where they are required for more operational duties. Again, I think

:56:43. > :56:49.these are sensible proposals in terms of ensuring the flexibility

:56:50. > :56:55.that is an offer to the court-martial. And where

:56:56. > :57:03.appropriate, suspended sentences can be awarded and again, thank you for

:57:04. > :57:10.tidying up this exercise in terms of the 2006 act. The question is clause

:57:11. > :57:15.six. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no".

:57:16. > :57:29.The eyes have it, -- the ayes have it, the ayes Cabinet. -- the ayes

:57:30. > :57:33.habit. For the convenience of the committee, I will discuss clauses

:57:34. > :57:39.seven to 12 which deal with offenders assisting investigations

:57:40. > :57:45.together. Clauses seven and eight allow the service prosecution in

:57:46. > :57:47.terms of assistance for providing a person to the investigation for

:57:48. > :57:50.prosecution to enter into an agreement with the person giving

:57:51. > :57:55.them immunity from prosecution or undertaking that information that

:57:56. > :58:00.will not be used against them in proceedings. Clauses nine to 12 are

:58:01. > :58:06.about reducing sentences for those who provide such assistance. These

:58:07. > :58:12.provisions is closely follows, are about the crime and policing act

:58:13. > :58:18.2005. Under these provisions, and immunity notice must be in writing

:58:19. > :58:22.and will normally include conditions, the breach of which will

:58:23. > :58:27.lead to the immunity being revoked. The director of service of

:58:28. > :58:37.prosecutions will, is a matter of good practice, consult regarding any

:58:38. > :58:42.offer of immunity. The DSP will do this regarding current prosecutions.

:58:43. > :58:49.Immunity notices can only be provided if the DSP think it is

:58:50. > :58:56.appropriate. The criminal conduct service offence, were the criminal

:58:57. > :58:59.civilian is capable of being tried in the Crown Court on a disciplinary

:59:00. > :59:08.offence where the maximum sentence is more than two years in prison.

:59:09. > :59:15.Just one quick question and I'm not sure whether to intervene or ask for

:59:16. > :59:19.an intervention. In relation to the... You mentioned about

:59:20. > :59:25.contacting devolved administrations, what credence do the devolved

:59:26. > :59:31.administrations have in terms of the decision of the Ministry of Defence

:59:32. > :59:40.making? Should be a disagreement between the Administration 's, who

:59:41. > :59:47.takes precedent? I think the minister was giving way. He had

:59:48. > :59:54.finished. I just want to add as a member of the select committee, and

:59:55. > :00:01.when you look at the concern there were two things that I was very

:00:02. > :00:08.impressed with. The first of those was the need to refer to the actual

:00:09. > :00:13.need general. That link between the service and the Attorney General was

:00:14. > :00:16.a very good one. I forget what the second one was but the first one

:00:17. > :00:25.will probably stand as the major point I would like to make. We

:00:26. > :00:35.support these clauses in that it brings into line again service law

:00:36. > :00:41.with best practice in civilian law and with the reinsurance outlined,

:00:42. > :00:52.I'm not sure this will be used on many occasions with those assurances

:00:53. > :00:56.that support these clauses. Indeed, I agree with the honourable member

:00:57. > :01:02.opposite. It is anticipated that these will only be used on very rare

:01:03. > :01:06.occasions and in the most serious cases. In answer to the question for

:01:07. > :01:12.the honourable gentleman opposite, it is hoped that while this process

:01:13. > :01:20.has not been tried, it is will not be any conflict of jurisdiction. If

:01:21. > :01:26.I may, however, I will write to the honourable gentleman with the detail

:01:27. > :01:29.in due course. Regarding clause seven, As many as are of the

:01:30. > :01:41.opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The eyes have -- the ayes

:01:42. > :01:49.habit, the ayes habit. -- the ayes have it. As many as are of the

:01:50. > :02:03.opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it. Regarding

:02:04. > :02:08.clause 13, the question is that clause 13 stand as part of the bill.

:02:09. > :02:18.Thank you. This clause and rescheduled to the bill revived that

:02:19. > :02:21.it should come into force in the isle of Mann and overseas

:02:22. > :02:28.territories, except for Gibraltar, we are speaking to Gibraltar

:02:29. > :02:36.regarding the 2007 act. I should at this point make clear, as UK law,

:02:37. > :02:40.the 2006 act should continue to apply wherever in the world they are

:02:41. > :02:48.selling. We have consulted with the territorial and they are content

:02:49. > :02:50.with this approach. -- serving. With the 2006 act, extending the two

:02:51. > :02:57.thereto. If they consider that would be best, we would introduce an

:02:58. > :03:06.amendment to that effect. I thank the Minister for that Rivero and

:03:07. > :03:14.overseas. I welcome the fact that he has that commitment in the British

:03:15. > :03:17.Overseas Territories with the exception of Gibraltar. With the

:03:18. > :03:23.option of extending it to the channel islands as well. Those from

:03:24. > :03:28.overseas territories and those serving beer, I am very pleased to

:03:29. > :03:39.say that we have a privilege in showing our arms service overseas.

:03:40. > :03:41.-- serving there. Can you tell us, with the option of extending to the

:03:42. > :03:47.Channel Islands, what does that mean? The other question is a

:03:48. > :03:51.question that I'm not sure if the Minister can answer or not, I

:03:52. > :03:56.sincerely hope that I will get a commitment from the Minister that

:03:57. > :04:07.the exception of Gibraltar today is not due to any Spanish interference.

:04:08. > :04:16.Can the Minister confirm that? It is not in relation to Madrid but

:04:17. > :04:25.actually the folk in Gibraltar. Thank you. We support clause 13 and

:04:26. > :04:32.be schedule that goes with it. It makes sense that they should be

:04:33. > :04:36.extended to overseas territories. I've just like to ask the minister a

:04:37. > :04:42.couple of questions. What is the timescale for negotiations? I accept

:04:43. > :04:45.there are elections going on at the moment that could interfere with

:04:46. > :04:57.this process. Also what is the mechanism if they did accept the

:04:58. > :05:04.extension. With Gibraltar, what would we have to wait for for the

:05:05. > :05:10.next bill to be brought in? Can I deal with Gibraltar first, if I may?

:05:11. > :05:13.Absolutely not. It has nothing to do with the Spanish. It is simply that

:05:14. > :05:21.Gibraltar received a new constitution in 2005 which gives it

:05:22. > :05:26.wider responsibilities and, as I said, we have discussed with them

:05:27. > :05:32.whether we can provide for it in the 2006 act within their own

:05:33. > :05:36.legislation. There has been a delay as the honourable gentleman opposite

:05:37. > :05:39.point out. This is simply because as the house appreciates, Gibraltar has

:05:40. > :05:43.been going through elections at the moment. Those are included. I am

:05:44. > :05:47.very keen to include this matter with Gibraltar as quickly as

:05:48. > :05:53.possible and the intention with the, if they did wish to be included with

:05:54. > :05:59.any 2006 to 2015 bill, to introduce amendments in the other place at

:06:00. > :06:03.that point. When it comes to the wider impact on other overseas

:06:04. > :06:07.territories, the fact that the 2006 act has not been enforced any

:06:08. > :06:15.British Overseas Territories, including the Isle of Man. It has

:06:16. > :06:20.not created any difficulties. The rationale for extending this act to

:06:21. > :06:30.those jurisdictions really includes including that members of our Armed

:06:31. > :06:33.Forces might do in those places are a member of UK law and law for those

:06:34. > :06:39.jurisdictions. Service police would have powers of arrest serving in

:06:40. > :06:42.those jurisdictions as well. The civilian authorities within

:06:43. > :06:46.jurisdictions can do things which they might not otherwise have power

:06:47. > :06:53.under the jurisdictions to do. By being included in this act, it gives

:06:54. > :07:03.them powers as well. It is a positive step. Regarding clause 13,

:07:04. > :07:10.As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I

:07:11. > :07:15.think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. We now come to clause 14

:07:16. > :07:24.and it would be convenient to consider clause 15.

:07:25. > :07:33.I will discuss clauses 14 and 15 relating to MOD firefighters

:07:34. > :07:39.together. These clauses give MOD firefighters the same power to act

:07:40. > :07:43.in emergencies as employers of civilian rescue authorities. Powers

:07:44. > :07:49.to enter premises by force. To close roads and to regulate traffic. It

:07:50. > :07:54.also makes it an offence to obstruct an MOD firefighter who is acting in

:07:55. > :08:00.an emergency. Close this team gives MOD firefighters the same exemptions

:08:01. > :08:08.from provisions in certain acts, rules on drivers hours as employees

:08:09. > :08:13.of Fire and rescue authorities. Could I just ask the Minister for

:08:14. > :08:23.clarification. An MOD firefighter who is on a base and the C a farm or

:08:24. > :08:26.a fire, can they go straight to that and deal with it or do they have to

:08:27. > :08:35.wait for civilian firefighters to come? I will come to that any

:08:36. > :08:38.moment. There are protocols in place between our MOD firefighters and

:08:39. > :08:45.local Fire authorities. There been occasions when our MOD firefighters

:08:46. > :08:49.have supported our local authority Fire And Rescue Services. It is

:08:50. > :08:55.important that is done in a combined weight and a controlled way. The

:08:56. > :08:58.defence fire risk management organisation provides Fire and

:08:59. > :09:07.rescue operational services and support across defence at airfields.

:09:08. > :09:14.And deployed locations in the UK. Also overseas. For outside the

:09:15. > :09:17.primary legislation that governs local fire and rescue authorities in

:09:18. > :09:22.the UK. Contractors providing Fire And Rescue Services for defence are

:09:23. > :09:30.also present at the atomic weapons and establishment. They operate

:09:31. > :09:38.sites across the country. They have 300 and fire fire contractors out of

:09:39. > :09:42.the strength of 5000 personnel. Now and in the future they should be

:09:43. > :09:48.able to deal with an emergency in the same way as MOD firefighters. We

:09:49. > :09:51.are not aware of local fire authorities using protracted

:09:52. > :09:56.firefighters but there are private and specialist Fire And Rescue

:09:57. > :10:04.Services such as ports and airports, power stations and some state

:10:05. > :10:07.properties. The clause constitutes a sensible change that gives MOD

:10:08. > :10:19.firefighters the same legal protections as there is

:10:20. > :10:24.counterparts. -- their counterparts. The legal protections that are

:10:25. > :10:30.given, will that be insurance protection as well? You're giving

:10:31. > :10:36.the firefighters extra work and responsibilities, comes with that

:10:37. > :10:43.comes the possibility of some deeply heart with that. We appreciate the

:10:44. > :10:47.work of the Ministry of Defence and firefighters also. It is important

:10:48. > :10:51.to bear in mind some of the concerns the Fire Brigade union have raised

:10:52. > :10:57.as a consequence of the bill. They have concerns about impact of

:10:58. > :11:00.employing MOD firefighters at incidents usually dealt by local

:11:01. > :11:03.firefighters. There is a need to deal with the issue and to

:11:04. > :11:10.streamline thinking they are. That is dealt with by this clause. We

:11:11. > :11:16.agree it is important that the action suggests as the clause does.

:11:17. > :11:22.This is a practical and sensible measure which closes a loophole

:11:23. > :11:29.which is there at present. Again, can I pay tribute to the Ministry of

:11:30. > :11:39.Defence firefighter jobs they do. These changes will ensure they have

:11:40. > :11:44.the full protection of the law. Simply to answer the honourable

:11:45. > :11:50.members question, of course, we will ensure all our firefighters have

:11:51. > :11:53.appropriate protection. The question is that clause 14 stand for the

:11:54. > :12:01.bill. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no" the

:12:02. > :12:06.ayes have it, the ayes have it. For clause 15 As many as are of the

:12:07. > :12:12.opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no" the ayes have it, the ayes have

:12:13. > :12:20.it. We now come to clause 16 and will consider at 17 to 19. The

:12:21. > :12:31.Government amendment one, clause 20, Government new clause one and

:12:32. > :12:38.Government amendment to. Thank you. I am delighted to be able to speak

:12:39. > :12:39.to these amendments today. New clause one acknowledges the

:12:40. > :12:46.importance that the Government places on the work of the advisory

:12:47. > :12:49.and pension committees and supporting our Armed Forces

:12:50. > :12:54.community. This clause will amend section 25 of the Social Security

:12:55. > :13:00.act 1989 to allow the Secretary of State to make changes to the pension

:13:01. > :13:04.advisory committee to provide advice and complains in relation to the

:13:05. > :13:17.Armed Forces compensation scheme 2005. Also future compensation

:13:18. > :13:22.schemes. The committee have already certain functions and committees as

:13:23. > :13:26.described in section 25 of the Social Security act and the War

:13:27. > :13:36.pensions regulations. This will expand the remit. I should say a bit

:13:37. > :13:42.more about these committees. The committee were first established as

:13:43. > :13:53.the war pensions committees in 19 21. There are 13 such committees

:13:54. > :13:56.whose members I appoint as the Minister of veterans. They are all

:13:57. > :14:03.unpaid and volunteers working between their regional areas to help

:14:04. > :14:07.ex-service personnel and their families, particularly those who are

:14:08. > :14:12.honourable. These committees carry out a range of activities, in

:14:13. > :14:16.relation to the War pension scheme. Until 2005 it was the main scheme

:14:17. > :14:22.for payment of compensation to the Armed Forces and their spouses and

:14:23. > :14:28.dependents. For injuries and death caused by servers. These provided

:14:29. > :14:36.local cop consultation -- consultation. Raising awareness of

:14:37. > :14:41.the scheme and the the welfare service, monitoring the work of the

:14:42. > :14:49.scheme to provide the best possible service to pensioners and widows. In

:14:50. > :14:57.representing individuals or making a complaint to the war pensions and

:14:58. > :14:59.war widows application process. There are new compensation schemes

:15:00. > :15:08.and they were not in existence at the time section 25 was enacted.

:15:09. > :15:17.Further compensation schemes have been enacted under the 2004 act. The

:15:18. > :15:21.new clause will enable the committee to be given comparable functions

:15:22. > :15:24.relating to these new schemes, as well as the existing schemes that

:15:25. > :15:29.they are responsible for. We want the good work of these committees to

:15:30. > :15:35.continue. They help to enhance your local services and their families.

:15:36. > :15:41.Giving local support in promoting the Armed Forces covenant and the

:15:42. > :15:46.development of local community covenants. Giving independent

:15:47. > :15:54.advice. They also champion individual cases. The clause

:15:55. > :15:58.proposed today is for the benefit of the veterans and their families.

:15:59. > :16:04.They deserve the best. I should also mention amendments one and two. They

:16:05. > :16:07.make small changes. Number one provides the new clause does not

:16:08. > :16:13.extend to the Isle of Man or the British Overseas Territories. It

:16:14. > :16:20.will be amended by the new clause. It extends only to England, Wales,

:16:21. > :16:33.Scotland and Northern Ireland. Amendment to changes the title to

:16:34. > :16:40.reference the war... This will give a statutory base to continue their

:16:41. > :16:43.good work. With the consent of Parliament our idea is for them to

:16:44. > :16:51.set out their functions at the earliest opportunity. We will

:16:52. > :16:56.support all the progress and supporting our military veterans. We

:16:57. > :17:02.think it is very important we do all we can to uphold our obligations and

:17:03. > :17:06.to consider how we continually saluted the services for our

:17:07. > :17:14.ex-service personnel and their families. I do not want to intervene

:17:15. > :17:22.on the substance of these but I do think it would be appropriate to

:17:23. > :17:26.offer my appreciation, I am sure the Minister would agree with me, for

:17:27. > :17:38.the honourable member for Fulton and Bradley Stoke cheered the committee.

:17:39. > :17:42.-- cheered the committee. There was cross-party agreement on this bill

:17:43. > :17:45.and I thank the honourable member opposite in his involvement in this

:17:46. > :17:53.and it will be happy is a direct result of that. I commend what the

:17:54. > :17:57.Minister has said. I am keen to see the full number and fermentation of

:17:58. > :18:07.the covenant and the community will read across the whole of Northern

:18:08. > :18:20.Ireland. I am keen to get the Minister's ideas. Can I also echo

:18:21. > :18:29.the comments by the honourable member for Henley in terms of the

:18:30. > :18:38.work of the cheer of the committee. -- chair of the committee. I had to

:18:39. > :18:43.administer the -- had the pleasure of meeting people involved in the

:18:44. > :18:47.committee and we should be attributed to the work they do. They

:18:48. > :18:55.are volunteers and they are very committed to ensuring that veterans

:18:56. > :19:03.get advice and also, on occasions, highlight issues that are not

:19:04. > :19:15.relevant when legislation is going through and the only come to light

:19:16. > :19:20.after words. I think they are a very important mechanism for supporting

:19:21. > :19:27.veterans. In effect, I perhaps should not say this, but many are

:19:28. > :19:31.already given advice is compensation schemes. I think this is sensible

:19:32. > :19:40.measure to measure in making them legal. With that we will support

:19:41. > :19:48.these new clauses. Minister? The honourable member is right. I am

:19:49. > :19:57.well aware they are already offering advice. I would not condone illegal

:19:58. > :20:01.activity. We do do a fantastic work. I also share the comments which have

:20:02. > :20:07.been from across the House in thanking the honourable member and

:20:08. > :20:13.his chairmanship of this committee. We have not quite reached the end. I

:20:14. > :20:17.would not want to break out taking any form of consensus for granted.

:20:18. > :20:23.We have not got to the end yet. There may if you are more amendments

:20:24. > :20:29.and clauses to go. I hope we continue in the vein we have

:20:30. > :20:33.started. In relation to the question posed by the honourable gentleman

:20:34. > :20:37.opposite, of course we want to see the military covenant progress in

:20:38. > :20:42.Northern Ireland in the best possible way we can. I think major

:20:43. > :20:45.progress has been made in recent months, not least with the first to

:20:46. > :20:49.local authorities signing the covenant. I am looking forward to

:20:50. > :20:56.coming to Northern Ireland myself very shortly. I will do what I can

:20:57. > :21:00.to continue to promote the covenants in the province. Equally, I would

:21:01. > :21:08.hope he would agree this is a major step in the right direction as well.

:21:09. > :21:11.The question is clause 16 stand part of the bill. As many as are of the

:21:12. > :21:19.opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes

:21:20. > :21:24.have it. We will take clauses 17 to 19 together. The question is that 17

:21:25. > :21:31.to 19 stand part of the bill. As many as are of the opinion, say

:21:32. > :21:40."aye". To the contrary, "no" the ayes have it, the ayes have it. We

:21:41. > :21:47.now come to clause 20. The question is that Government amendment one be

:21:48. > :21:52.made. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no" I

:21:53. > :21:58.think the ayes have it, the ayes have it. The question is clause 20

:21:59. > :22:01.as amended state part of the bill. As many as are of the opinion, say

:22:02. > :22:11."aye". To the contrary, "no". I think the ayes have it, the ayes

:22:12. > :22:14.have it. The question is the Government clause one be read a

:22:15. > :22:20.second time. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,

:22:21. > :22:24."no". The ayes have it, the ayes have it. The question is that

:22:25. > :22:27.Government new clause one be added to the bill. As many as are of the

:22:28. > :22:38.opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes

:22:39. > :22:49.have it. We now continue clause two, with which it would be convenient to

:22:50. > :22:51.consider new clause three. I rise to speak to clauses two and three in my

:22:52. > :23:02.name. I would like to say, firstly, that

:23:03. > :23:06.these are probing amendments and I do not intend to press for a

:23:07. > :23:10.division at this time. Although the bill before this committee of the

:23:11. > :23:13.entire house does not contain provisions in recent recruitment

:23:14. > :23:18.age, it is entirely appropriate that we consider this important issue

:23:19. > :23:22.within the context of this bill. I should state from the outset that

:23:23. > :23:26.I'm a great supporter of work of the women and men who serve on the Armed

:23:27. > :23:30.Forces on a daily basis and they honour and sacrifice knows no

:23:31. > :23:34.bounds. They are a credit to the communities they serve. Before

:23:35. > :23:38.turning to the amendments today, I would like to put on record my

:23:39. > :23:42.respect for the sterling work they do. What I'm concerned about and

:23:43. > :23:46.others across this has from the signatures is the UK's continued

:23:47. > :23:51.policy of recruiting children to the Armed Forces. As politicians we have

:23:52. > :23:57.to shield care to those who were asked to serve on our behalf. --

:23:58. > :24:04.have a duty of careful to the UK's one of 19 in -- 19 countries in the

:24:05. > :24:07.world to good children to this duty forces. It is the only member of

:24:08. > :24:12.Nato and the only European country that recruits children and it is a

:24:13. > :24:17.policy that needs to be changed to bring the UK into the modern world.

:24:18. > :24:23.I note that to the UK Government's great chain, even countries such as

:24:24. > :24:27.Zimbabwe, Iran and North Korea do not enlist miners. Well we are

:24:28. > :24:30.saddened and report by examples of child soldiers occurred in far-flung

:24:31. > :24:35.countries and experienced decades of Civil War and economic turmoil and

:24:36. > :24:40.strife in some cases, we often forget UK's whistle is not entirely

:24:41. > :24:44.clean when we look at if our own house is in order and I'm grateful

:24:45. > :24:48.to predecessors on all sides of the house who have campaigned on this

:24:49. > :24:51.issue over the years, seeking to get a successive governments of all

:24:52. > :24:57.colours to change policy on the recruitment of minors. Those with a

:24:58. > :25:01.keen eye and knowledge of this will have recognised these new clauses I

:25:02. > :25:06.have tabled or not that new and have been capable for under various

:25:07. > :25:09.guises down the years. I'm grateful to the members of this has past and

:25:10. > :25:14.present who have pressed this matter in years gone by and I acknowledge

:25:15. > :25:18.their efforts. This is a matter of a brain arising from the wings of

:25:19. > :25:24.Eagles. I'm aware recruits under the age of 18 are not required to fight

:25:25. > :25:28.in active combat. There might be an ardent in favour of allowing those

:25:29. > :25:32.with the calling of a vocation to serve in the Armed Forces who might

:25:33. > :25:35.not possess the drive or the desire to pursue an otherwise academic

:25:36. > :25:38.route or vocational reached other employment. But then, joining the

:25:39. > :25:45.Armed Forces provides focus and allows them a route to the

:25:46. > :25:48.fulfilment. I'm not opposed to juggle of 16 and 17 being able to

:25:49. > :25:52.demonstrate their interest in the Armed Forces, nor joining groups

:25:53. > :25:56.that can help them to prepare for a career in the Armed Forces if that's

:25:57. > :26:00.what they wish to do upon reaching adult hood and the age of consent.

:26:01. > :26:03.What I am opposed to is the recruitment of minors into the Armed

:26:04. > :26:06.Forces and potential that such young people can make such binding

:26:07. > :26:12.commitments at an unacceptably early age. I believe the Government should

:26:13. > :26:18.end this anomaly with the standards it claims the demand from others and

:26:19. > :26:21.end the recruitment of minors. At the very least, and this is the

:26:22. > :26:25.thinking behind the new clause, those under the age of 18 should be

:26:26. > :26:30.freely able to discharge themselves from duty should they so wish and

:26:31. > :26:34.not have to give three months notice during which time they might be

:26:35. > :26:37.pressurised to change their minds. Three months is too long to have to

:26:38. > :26:42.wait having made that decision and they should be robust informed of

:26:43. > :26:48.his right that they can withdraw with a shorter period of notice, 14

:26:49. > :26:52.days, when the on list. The duty of care report emphasises the youngest

:26:53. > :26:56.recruits, particularly under the age of 18, who are legally children,

:26:57. > :27:00.were the ones who presented greatest concern of relation the duty of

:27:01. > :27:05.care. The report's recommendation for review has since been followed

:27:06. > :27:09.by a number of further similar calls from national and international

:27:10. > :27:13.bodies. In 2000 days the UN committee on the rights of the child

:27:14. > :27:17.asks that the UK reconsider its active policy of the grid of

:27:18. > :27:21.children into the Armed Forces. -- of recruitment. It also recommended

:27:22. > :27:26.that the Government is used does not occur in a manner that specifically

:27:27. > :27:28.targets ethnic minorities and children of low-income families and

:27:29. > :27:32.parents are included from the outset and during the entire process of

:27:33. > :27:35.recruitment and enlistment. This has been called into question by the UN

:27:36. > :27:39.committee on the rights of the child many other respected bodies

:27:40. > :27:43.including children's commissioners. The welfare of young recruits has

:27:44. > :27:50.been in sharp focus since the tragic events of Didcot parrots that Maggie

:27:51. > :27:54.de Kock barracks. It's hard to believe that a decade has passed

:27:55. > :27:56.since the tragic event and the Government has not yet in permitted

:27:57. > :28:00.the recommendations of the Defence Select Committee's duty of care

:28:01. > :28:05.report. That Crystal report made several recommendations that the MoD

:28:06. > :28:10.has yet to implement. It wanted them to examine the potential impact of

:28:11. > :28:14.raising the group went age to the age of 18 and the MD insure that

:28:15. > :28:18.under 18 is to not undertake armed guard duty and there be a review of

:28:19. > :28:21.materials sitting -- setting out rights, Smuts buddies and the nature

:28:22. > :28:29.of commitment in the sort of language that potential recruits

:28:30. > :28:33.will understand. -- setting out rights, responsibilities and the

:28:34. > :28:38.nature. To which is 17 yet the practice of under 18 is taking part

:28:39. > :28:43.in armed guard duty would continue to this day and does so despite the

:28:44. > :28:45.duty of care report. The MOD are prioritising operational

:28:46. > :28:49.effectiveness of the rights and welfare of young people in its care.

:28:50. > :28:53.It's high time for the UK to move into line and adhere to

:28:54. > :28:55.international norms on the military recruitment age. It's a matter of

:28:56. > :28:59.concern that appears that the youngest recruits are most likely to

:29:00. > :29:01.be listed in the those roles that, when they do come of age, most

:29:02. > :29:07.potentially dangerous and I understand that this is relevant to

:29:08. > :29:11.the infantry, who are perhaps a concern that they need to get more

:29:12. > :29:16.recruits in and that is a particularly dangerous role that

:29:17. > :29:19.young York 's -- that using young people would have committed

:29:20. > :29:23.themselves to end at the early age. I have deep concerns about the Armed

:29:24. > :29:28.Forces and the infantry's agreement practices of targeting skills on

:29:29. > :29:35.educational visits and frequenting poorer air Salva Kiir areas where it

:29:36. > :29:41.can -- opportunities are few can predict a true of Wales. These are

:29:42. > :29:46.matters for the time, were here concerned. I will give way. Can I

:29:47. > :29:49.did ask, has she visited the Army Foundation College at Harrogate and

:29:50. > :29:54.if she hasn't, can I perhaps invite her to do so? I have not visited the

:29:55. > :29:58.Army College and I would be delighted to do so. My background is

:29:59. > :30:02.further education and I have told boys and girls, young men, young

:30:03. > :30:06.women in public services courses who were being actively targeted. I do

:30:07. > :30:09.have some experience with this. The matters I've just raised are perhaps

:30:10. > :30:13.for another time and we are concerned with the specific needs

:30:14. > :30:16.change the law so that Armed Forces recriminated in line with

:30:17. > :30:19.international and developmental world standard norms. I urge the

:30:20. > :30:22.Government to consider these amendments deeply and bring forward

:30:23. > :30:27.their own proposals if they are not minded to accept the new clauses.

:30:28. > :30:34.Thank you. For the discharge of underage teens. The question is the

:30:35. > :30:42.new clause to be read a second time. Thank you. I want to endorse the

:30:43. > :30:47.standards as at present and I'm very pleased with that. I'm sorry I

:30:48. > :30:50.cannot agree with the amendments put forward by the Honourable lady who I

:30:51. > :30:56.have the utmost and greatest respect for. I suppose what I'm really

:30:57. > :31:01.saying is that when it comes to the level of training, that starts at an

:31:02. > :31:06.early age can through the cadets for many of the young boys and girls who

:31:07. > :31:14.ultimately become the men and women in uniform for us on the gritter

:31:15. > :31:19.spectrum of life. I think what we have already is a level of training

:31:20. > :31:22.and introduction at cadet level, very early, and it does give him a

:31:23. > :31:27.chance to show their potential and gives them an interest in the Armed

:31:28. > :31:34.Forces and enables them at some stage to take it further if they

:31:35. > :31:37.wish to. I am keen to see that encourage and retained and I'm

:31:38. > :31:40.conscious as a minister that there is a level of training to be

:31:41. > :31:45.achieved before you become 18 which come if we can do that from the age

:31:46. > :31:50.of 15 or 16 right through or from an earlier age from the cadets, we have

:31:51. > :31:56.an opportunity to have a young soldier, male or female, quipped to

:31:57. > :32:01.the highest standard, trained to be highest standard and with the

:32:02. > :32:10.experience needed and I feel that what we have at present is perfectly

:32:11. > :32:13.acceptable. Thank you. Can again. The honourable lady spoke out

:32:14. > :32:17.honourably and sincerely and I have to disagree with her. Many young men

:32:18. > :32:23.and women in Mike assiduously joined the Armed Forces that the benefits

:32:24. > :32:26.of constructive education, training or unemployment and for those young

:32:27. > :32:33.adults serving their country as a driver of social mobility. It is

:32:34. > :32:37.fully compliant with the UN Convention on the rights of the

:32:38. > :32:43.child, as the lady herself recognised. Soldiers under the age

:32:44. > :32:47.of 18 are not deployed until they reach that age. I would also caution

:32:48. > :32:52.against the use of the term children, particularly child

:32:53. > :32:57.soldier, which not only is incorrect, but somewhat offensive

:32:58. > :33:05.and indeed belittles the trauma and plight of those children across the

:33:06. > :33:09.world who are forced into war and soldiery. I'm am afraid despite the

:33:10. > :33:12.forceful appointment the honourable lady made that for all those reasons

:33:13. > :33:19.I cannot support clauses two and three. Thank you. The honourable

:33:20. > :33:23.lady's points regarding service personnel aged under 18 are well

:33:24. > :33:26.made, however on these pages we think it is important that young

:33:27. > :33:30.people have the opportunity for as many options as possible for their

:33:31. > :33:35.career and life choices as they can at that stage in their lives. I

:33:36. > :33:39.would echo the lady's words that uses it was our responsibility to

:33:40. > :33:43.remember a duty of care for service personnel, young and all ages, but

:33:44. > :33:47.particularly we have a duty of care the younger members of our Armed

:33:48. > :33:53.Forces. That being said, we don't support this particular clause which

:33:54. > :33:58.prohibits those under 18 from joining the armed services but we do

:33:59. > :34:02.note that they are not deployed at that age. Those young people have

:34:03. > :34:05.joined do have the opportunity to change career path and it does not

:34:06. > :34:09.seem unreasonable for them to be able to do so with less notice, as

:34:10. > :34:14.the honourable lady said, than they currently do. We are supporters of

:34:15. > :34:19.her suggestion that they should be disruption to them to make changes

:34:20. > :34:28.after a short period of notice to the armed services. Thank you. The

:34:29. > :34:33.honourable lady rightly raises the issue of recruitment into the Armed

:34:34. > :34:37.Forces at 16 and as she said, this is not the first time this has been

:34:38. > :34:45.addressed. It was addressed when I was on the committee for the 2006

:34:46. > :34:50.act but like my honourable friend, I actually think it does no service

:34:51. > :34:59.trying to draw an analogy between the recruitment of youngsters in the

:35:00. > :35:02.UK at 16 to those that are forced to join up the fight in wars, for

:35:03. > :35:06.example, in west Africa and other parts of the world. The contrast

:35:07. > :35:13.could not be more stark and I don't think as the honourable friend said,

:35:14. > :35:18.it does any good to the cause which we try to eradicate that to have a

:35:19. > :35:28.practice that takes place in other parts of the world. In terms of the

:35:29. > :35:35.recruitment of youngsters at 16, in terms of deployment, they cannot be

:35:36. > :35:41.deployed until 18 and in terms of the activities which they undertake,

:35:42. > :35:48.I have got to say, it is in my opinion a force for good in many of

:35:49. > :35:51.those individual cases, certainly in terms of Harrogate and as a

:35:52. > :36:01.minister, one of the most inspiring days that I spent was at the HMS

:36:02. > :36:04.Raleigh to take a parade were not only in terms of speaking to the

:36:05. > :36:07.individuals who completed their basic training, it changes that have

:36:08. > :36:14.taken place and the pride with which not only them but their families

:36:15. > :36:18.attended that event, and speaking to some of the parents afterwards, they

:36:19. > :36:22.said in the short period of time they had been in the Navy, the

:36:23. > :36:28.changes in those ten weeks was something short of remarkable. In

:36:29. > :36:34.terms of the issues around deep cut and the tragic circumstances, I

:36:35. > :36:38.think you were on the defence committee and a major investigation

:36:39. > :36:41.into digital care and not only the a lot of mud and this Government as

:36:42. > :36:52.well as committed to the changes that came out of that report. --

:36:53. > :36:56.into duty of care. Mr Nicholas Blake's reports into the tragic

:36:57. > :37:00.events of deep cut, is it right to say there were problems was that

:37:01. > :37:03.yes, there were and we acknowledge that in our report then. Many of

:37:04. > :37:09.those have been addressed, including guard duty, which was being used in

:37:10. > :37:15.the past as a way of occupying people's time between two phases of

:37:16. > :37:19.training. Particularly with phase one and two of training. In terms of

:37:20. > :37:27.the individuals who join at 16, certainly the work which all three

:37:28. > :37:31.services do with individuals is important and I might say this, it

:37:32. > :37:35.is also remarkable what they do correcting some of the problems

:37:36. > :37:39.which some of those individuals have had with the education system,

:37:40. > :37:45.certainly in terms of work done at Harrogate and also at Catterick in

:37:46. > :37:49.terms of working with Darlington College who are trying to get

:37:50. > :37:56.literacy rates up to where they should be, it is not only help over

:37:57. > :38:03.the individual, but quite remarkable in terms of the successes they have.

:38:04. > :38:07.I see no problem with the recruitment of young people at 16.

:38:08. > :38:14.The honourable lady mentioned the issue around the involvement of

:38:15. > :38:20.parents and as I'm aware, they are fully involved in that process in

:38:21. > :38:24.terms of before people not only agree to join a member of the Armed

:38:25. > :38:33.Forces but also in terms of their ongoing involvement.

:38:34. > :38:41.One of the issues we covered in our report was people coming out of care

:38:42. > :38:46.and joining the Armed Forces. I know the MoD have put things in place,

:38:47. > :38:52.clear protocols to deal with individuals who come out of care and

:38:53. > :38:58.join the Armed Forces. There is an issue which again is something that

:38:59. > :39:02.does need attention. It is an absolute I have struggled with and

:39:03. > :39:08.the Minister will as well, that is in terms of those people who leave,

:39:09. > :39:12.not just after basic training but short periods after joining the

:39:13. > :39:20.Armed Forces. In a lot of ways, they are very difficult in how the Armed

:39:21. > :39:27.Forces Alpen transition back into civilian life but also addressing

:39:28. > :39:32.some of the issues where individuals have, not as a result of their

:39:33. > :39:40.career in the Armed Forces but actually from deep-seated issues

:39:41. > :39:43.that were present before they became members of the Armed Forces. I

:39:44. > :39:52.actually think that anyone who meets young recruits at basic training

:39:53. > :39:57.facilities can only be impressed by their transformation as individuals.

:39:58. > :40:02.Also, on occasions we tend to concentrate heavily on the negative

:40:03. > :40:08.aspects of being a member of the Armed Forces but I have to say I am

:40:09. > :40:13.one who is proud to say that I think in the majority of cases, being a

:40:14. > :40:19.member of the Armed Forces is life changing for those individuals and

:40:20. > :40:24.has a positive impact in terms of not only career choices but in their

:40:25. > :40:27.life, not only with their time in the Armed Forces but subsequently,

:40:28. > :40:34.when they leave and become government ministers like the

:40:35. > :40:39.honourable gentleman opposite. Thank you very much, I am delighted to be

:40:40. > :40:43.joined by my honourable friend, the member for Hemel Hamstead, who

:40:44. > :40:50.joined the Army at 16 years and two days, I hear. A long time ago, yes.

:40:51. > :40:56.I recognise there are a variety of views across the house and I am

:40:57. > :41:00.grateful to debate the honourable Lady's Amendment, we offer a range

:41:01. > :41:05.of benefits to the individual, the Armed Forces and society provide a

:41:06. > :41:08.valuable and vocational training opportunity to those following a

:41:09. > :41:14.career in the Armed Forces. We take our duty of care for entrance under

:41:15. > :41:17.the age of 18 extremely seriously. Close attention has been paid in

:41:18. > :41:25.recent years, especially after the tragic deaths at deep cut, we have

:41:26. > :41:29.verified safeguards to ensure that under 18-year-olds are cared for

:41:30. > :41:34.properly. The training for 16-year-old school leavers provides

:41:35. > :41:38.a way into the Armed Forces that complies with government education

:41:39. > :41:41.policy and providing a significant foundation for emotional, physical

:41:42. > :41:47.and educational development during an individual's career. There is no

:41:48. > :41:51.compulsory recruitment into the Armed Forces. Our recruiting policy

:41:52. > :41:56.is clear, no one under the age of 18 can join the Armed Forces without

:41:57. > :42:00.parental consent, which is checked twice during the application

:42:01. > :42:04.process. Parents and guardians are positively encouraged to be involved

:42:05. > :42:09.with the recruiting staff in the process. Service personnel under the

:42:10. > :42:13.age of 18 are not deployed on any operation outside the UK except when

:42:14. > :42:18.the operation does not involve personnel ringing gauged in or

:42:19. > :42:23.exposed to hostilities. In July 2015, the High Court dismissed a

:42:24. > :42:25.judicial review brought by the organisation tile soldiers

:42:26. > :42:29.International alleging that army recruits aged 16 to 18 was in

:42:30. > :42:34.conflict with the equal treatment directive. Also personnel have a

:42:35. > :42:40.statutory right to claim discharge up to their 18th birthday. The right

:42:41. > :42:43.of discharge is made clear to all service personnel on joining the

:42:44. > :42:48.Armed Forces. There is a long-standing legal right of all new

:42:49. > :42:52.recruits, regardless of age, to discharge within their first three

:42:53. > :42:57.to six months of service, depending on their service, if they decide the

:42:58. > :43:01.Armed Forces is not the career for them. Under Armed Forces

:43:02. > :43:05.regulations, everyone under the age of 18 serving in the Armed Forces

:43:06. > :43:10.has a further right to claim discharge up to their 18th birthday.

:43:11. > :43:16.For the first six months of service, this is achieved by giving not less

:43:17. > :43:20.than 14 days notice, in writing, to their commanding officer after an

:43:21. > :43:23.initial period of 28 day service. At any other time after six months

:43:24. > :43:28.service, those under the age of 18 who wish to leave must give notice

:43:29. > :43:34.in writing to their commanding officer, who must then discharge the

:43:35. > :43:39.recruit within 18 months. The latest they would be discharged is at 18

:43:40. > :43:45.years and three months of age. These three months represent a cooling off

:43:46. > :43:49.period to avoid decisions made in the heat of the moment. A shorter

:43:50. > :43:55.period may be agreed with the commanding officer but it provides

:43:56. > :43:59.the 18-year-old to give it due reflection. It ensures individuals

:44:00. > :44:04.under the age of 18 have an appropriate period of time to decide

:44:05. > :44:07.whether or not to leave and offers flexibility on individual

:44:08. > :44:11.circumstances. Ultimately, all service personnel under the age of

:44:12. > :44:18.18 have a statutory right to leave the Armed Forces up until their 18th

:44:19. > :44:20.birthday. All recruits under age 18 receive key skills education in

:44:21. > :44:27.literacy and numerous see if they need it. And all of them are

:44:28. > :44:31.enrolled onto apprenticeships. The Armed Forces remains the UK's

:44:32. > :44:36.largest apprenticeship provider, equipping young people with valuable

:44:37. > :44:40.and transferable skills for life. Over 95% of all recruits, no matter

:44:41. > :44:45.what their age or prior qualifications, enrolled in

:44:46. > :44:50.apprenticeship each year. The Armed Forces offers courses in a wide

:44:51. > :44:53.range of skills like engineering, information and communication

:44:54. > :44:57.technologies, construction, driving and animal care. Ofsted Wrigley

:44:58. > :45:02.checks our care of young recruits and we are proud of the standards we

:45:03. > :45:07.achieved. Which deep -- we treat young recruits well. The chief of

:45:08. > :45:14.general staff described in committee the process of treating young people

:45:15. > :45:19.the right way and giving them new opportunities as incredibly

:45:20. > :45:21.positive. "I Take pride in the fact that we provide structured

:45:22. > :45:26.education, training and employment opportunities to young people while

:45:27. > :45:30.in service. I take the point on board and agree with the Honourable

:45:31. > :45:35.member for North Durham about his concerns for early leavers. It is an

:45:36. > :45:39.area I am focused on and I am delighted the new career transition

:45:40. > :45:46.partnership which was introduced on the 1st of October addresses this

:45:47. > :45:52.very point. Do you want to press your Amendment? Enkidu everybody for

:45:53. > :46:04.taking part and I do not wish to press my amendment. New clause

:46:05. > :46:07.withdrawn, we now come to new clause five with which it will be

:46:08. > :46:18.convenient to consider new clauses six and seven, Kevin Jones to move.

:46:19. > :46:21.Thank you. To move new clauses five, six and seven, I apologise to

:46:22. > :46:30.members of the committee that I here because they have heard many of

:46:31. > :46:38.these amendments before but in terms of some of the replies we have got

:46:39. > :46:45.in committee, we said these things would be looked at. Mainly as

:46:46. > :46:54.amendments but I will wait to see what the member comes forward with.

:46:55. > :47:00.New clause five concerns the service police gathering statistics in terms

:47:01. > :47:06.of serious sexual assaults and rapes. In terms of civilian police,

:47:07. > :47:14.there is no statutory obligation to do this but it is now best practice

:47:15. > :47:18.and in terms of individuals who can look at trends in different police

:47:19. > :47:24.forces, they are able to do this. We were told in committee that the

:47:25. > :47:33.service police already collect these statistics anyway and the committee

:47:34. > :47:39.was told they are available if people use parliamentary questions

:47:40. > :47:45.or freedom of information requests. In terms of the reasons why these

:47:46. > :47:54.are important is that it is important I think in terms, can I

:47:55. > :47:57.give credit both to the Ministry of Defence and General Sir Nick Carter

:47:58. > :48:02.who gave evidence to the committee, who I believe is general gent --

:48:03. > :48:09.generally committed to changing attitudes in the army to ensure

:48:10. > :48:12.openness and transparency, as the outlined in his approach to

:48:13. > :48:15.leadership guide that he has published, in terms of zero

:48:16. > :48:20.tolerance of anyone who steps outside of the law. He also should

:48:21. > :48:25.be commended for his efforts to recruit more women, not only into

:48:26. > :48:31.the Armed Forces and Army but also to ensure that they progress through

:48:32. > :48:41.the Armed Forces to more senior positions. But the evidence is there

:48:42. > :48:52.that in the 2005 report, but 39% of service men questioned were saying

:48:53. > :49:02.they actually faced some sort of harassment. That cannot be right,

:49:03. > :49:11.also, some 33% said that they face some sort of unwelcome attempts to

:49:12. > :49:15.talk about sexual matters or felt uncomfortable in some of the

:49:16. > :49:18.conversations taking place. Why would it be important? It would be

:49:19. > :49:24.important to publish these statistics are good as clearly they

:49:25. > :49:28.have been collated already and I know the Ministry of Defence moves

:49:29. > :49:31.at a snails pace and a push occasionally to come up with best

:49:32. > :49:35.practice elsewhere but I cannot see any reason why that if these

:49:36. > :49:42.statistics are already available, that they should not be produced on

:49:43. > :49:48.an annual basis. I think it would be important, like it being important

:49:49. > :49:52.in terms of civilian police forces, but in terms of looking at trends

:49:53. > :49:55.and seeing if some of the initiatives that have been

:49:56. > :50:01.undertaken in all three services to bed down on behaviour which is

:50:02. > :50:07.unacceptable, is actually having an effect. It should not need a Right

:50:08. > :50:13.Honourable member to put down a parliamentary question to get this

:50:14. > :50:19.information or a Freedom of information request. I think this is

:50:20. > :50:26.something that should be made available and I cannot for the life

:50:27. > :50:29.of me think why there would be reluctance, apart from the usual

:50:30. > :50:37.snail 's pace at the Ministry of Defence. Let us be honest, if these

:50:38. > :50:42.are published annually, can I assure everyone that the sky is not going

:50:43. > :50:49.to fall in that it will send a proper and clear message in terms of

:50:50. > :50:59.why it is important that the words that General Carter is saying in

:51:00. > :51:02.terms of advancing and promoting women and cracking down on this kind

:51:03. > :51:10.of behaviour is scrutinised in the proper way. New clause six refers to

:51:11. > :51:18.the unique position in the Armed Forces of the commanding officer

:51:19. > :51:28.being able to direct whether or not an allegation of a sexual nature

:51:29. > :51:35.should be referred to the military police or civilian police for

:51:36. > :51:44.investigation. We had a long discussion about this in committee

:51:45. > :51:51.and felt, I certainly feel, that this puts a commanding officer in a

:51:52. > :52:02.position where he or she is possibly making judgments that they are not

:52:03. > :52:06.possibly thinking of in terms of the fact and would be a proper way

:52:07. > :52:12.forward. In saying that, General Carter, when he came before the

:52:13. > :52:16.committee, when he did give an indication that commanding officers

:52:17. > :52:23.in these cases were recommended to take legal advice before taking

:52:24. > :52:27.these matters forward or how they should be dealt with. I think if we

:52:28. > :52:31.could get some compromise on this, one way forward would be to ensure

:52:32. > :52:37.that is codified that there should be an obligation on commanding

:52:38. > :52:45.officers to take legal advice before they decide what goes forward.

:52:46. > :52:54.New clause seven deals with the serious issues of nonviolent crime,

:52:55. > :53:02.rape and the committee, and I put this down again to raise this matter

:53:03. > :53:11.as to whether or not the military police have the capacity or

:53:12. > :53:17.expertise to deal with serious rape cases or murder cases. Now, I accept

:53:18. > :53:21.what the Minister said in committee, that great advances have been made

:53:22. > :53:25.in terms of training and support for the military police in terms of

:53:26. > :53:35.techniques, wings that -- things that were done in so the police,

:53:36. > :53:39.there has been movement forward, but what was discussed in committee and

:53:40. > :53:47.I say it again, it is the complex nature of some of these, especially

:53:48. > :53:49.the rape cases, where in terms of civilian police forces, the

:53:50. > :53:55.development of things like rape suites to deal with the victims and

:53:56. > :54:01.the volume of cases that some civilian police force are dealing

:54:02. > :54:04.with means that they are not only more capable in terms of supporting

:54:05. > :54:10.the victim who comes forward, but also in terms of investigating that

:54:11. > :54:17.serious sexual assault or rape because of the numbers which they

:54:18. > :54:23.are dealing with, because clearly the instances we are dealing with in

:54:24. > :54:27.the Armed Forces, thankfully, are small. Things like the Metropolitan

:54:28. > :54:31.Police and other large open forces are clearly dealing with large

:54:32. > :54:36.numbers of these and have the expertise and officers that have

:54:37. > :54:42.dealt with different types of sexual assault and rape and it was felt

:54:43. > :54:49.that those individuals would be better placed to ensure that the

:54:50. > :54:56.victim in the military gets the same high standard and support which you

:54:57. > :55:02.would expect if these crimes were committed in civilian life. So, with

:55:03. > :55:10.those comments, I wish to move new clause five, six and seven.

:55:11. > :55:14.Requirement to publish statistics on sexual assault and rape. Request a

:55:15. > :55:23.new clause five be read a second time. This includes the new clause

:55:24. > :55:28.seven as well as the one I want to ask the question on, is that OK? I

:55:29. > :55:36.just want our skin listen to that to the Minister, the issues and the

:55:37. > :55:41.Shadow Minister has very carefully and cautiously outlined the issues

:55:42. > :55:47.that I agree with and they need to have, there has been examples in the

:55:48. > :55:53.past where women have been abused and raped and ultimately it as late

:55:54. > :55:57.to suicide and, and depression as well and all of those things are

:55:58. > :56:03.important, so I'm wondering within the process at this moment if the

:56:04. > :56:08.Minister can confirm that the power for any investigative officer to

:56:09. > :56:12.call whatever soldiers, male or female, that may have been present

:56:13. > :56:16.when it took place as part of an investigation that there is not any

:56:17. > :56:24.way that they can say, no, we cannot do that. I want to make should it a

:56:25. > :56:28.fool investigation could take place and protection for the person

:56:29. > :56:34.assaulted is there. My question is directed to the Minister. In Laois

:56:35. > :56:42.in the clauses five, six and seven it is vital that all matters

:56:43. > :56:46.relating to allegations to all crimes, including sexual assault,

:56:47. > :56:50.rape and murder, are dealt with the utmost seriousness. It is important

:56:51. > :56:53.these things are dealt with by the appropriate authorities and with the

:56:54. > :56:57.benefit of the best legal advice. Commanding officers are men and

:56:58. > :57:03.women of skill, professionalism, grit and integrity but it would not

:57:04. > :57:06.be fair for them to also be expected to possess the same level of

:57:07. > :57:13.specialist investigator is guilt as those whose pet -- background is

:57:14. > :57:15.specifically for this. In terms of victims and alleged perpetrators,

:57:16. > :57:17.these matters are being dealt with by specialist authorities that would

:57:18. > :57:23.allow for everyone to be aware that matters will be dead with in terms

:57:24. > :57:25.of the appropriate structure, approach and transparency are

:57:26. > :57:32.professional best practice. 'S will be dealt with in terms. With the

:57:33. > :57:35.publication of statistics on sexual assault and rape colleges key, it's

:57:36. > :57:40.not possible or sub -- or desirable to make soldiers about level or

:57:41. > :57:44.severity of allegations, prosecutors or convictions and we can only know

:57:45. > :57:48.the details to a robust, consistently formatted and regularly

:57:49. > :57:52.produced statistics in the public domain and wish to see improvement

:57:53. > :57:56.in the 2017 serving risen to sexual harassment when compared to the 2014

:57:57. > :58:00.period, for instance. Pushing for these statistics as part of our duty

:58:01. > :58:04.of care to service personnel. It was interesting and heartening to hear

:58:05. > :58:07.that some of this happens anyway, but it is not approached in the

:58:08. > :58:15.uniform or resistant manner broth all services -- across all services.

:58:16. > :58:20.Without this we cannot reasonably keep under review, which we should

:58:21. > :58:23.be doing to make sure that we continue to work force transparency,

:58:24. > :58:30.clarity and positive improvement for the benefit of all of our service

:58:31. > :58:36.personnel. Thank you. I am pleased the honourable member has returned

:58:37. > :58:40.these amendments. I welcome this opportunity to discuss such matters

:58:41. > :58:44.before the committee. Allegations of sexual assault and rape should never

:58:45. > :58:48.be treated lightly, it's important to ask that members of the Armed

:58:49. > :58:52.Forces are treated well and that we foster an environment in which

:58:53. > :58:57.people have confidence that unacceptable behaviour is not

:58:58. > :59:00.tolerated and that allegations of such are dealt with. It's important

:59:01. > :59:04.that we are active in driving this forward. The honourable member is

:59:05. > :59:11.right to raise the issue of publishing statistics. During select

:59:12. > :59:13.committee on the bill, my honourable friend said that the current

:59:14. > :59:18.arrangement is within the service justice system for the collection of

:59:19. > :59:23.publication of crime statistics. I will repeat these were the benefit

:59:24. > :59:27.of the committee today. The service police crime bureau records for all

:59:28. > :59:31.three services allegations of rape and sexual assault that are made to

:59:32. > :59:35.the service police. This information is reached regularly in response to

:59:36. > :59:42.parliamentary questions and MRI requests. With the latter, the

:59:43. > :59:46.information is uploaded to the MOD's online allegations came where it can

:59:47. > :59:50.be freely accessed for the Macnee be clear, I want to explore how we can

:59:51. > :59:59.be more proactive in releasing this information. -- I want to be clear.

:00:00. > :00:04.We are analysing how we can explore Kaymer go in taxes and methods of

:00:05. > :00:08.improving prime recording -- crime recording. The bureau is working to

:00:09. > :00:14.establish a crime registrar similar to that found in all other forces

:00:15. > :00:18.were remit is good night and the audit of the crimes on the server is

:00:19. > :00:22.pleased investigation management system that will lead to further

:00:23. > :00:26.improvements. The service prosecuting authority records each

:00:27. > :00:30.year the number of cases refers to them. The number of cases in which

:00:31. > :00:34.charges are preferred and the number of cases in which a conviction is

:00:35. > :00:38.secured and the military Court services published on the internet

:00:39. > :00:43.on a regular basis details of every case is heard at the court-martial,

:00:44. > :00:47.including offences, outcomes and punishments. There is, therefore, a

:00:48. > :00:50.clear picture of the extent of this type of offending within services.

:00:51. > :00:56.Giving a strong indication of the proportion of cases referred to the

:00:57. > :01:01.server 's prosecution authority, which will prosecute the conviction

:01:02. > :01:05.rate in such cases as the chief of the General staff's said when giving

:01:06. > :01:11.evidence to the select committee for the bill, in terms of publishing

:01:12. > :01:16.facts, figures and statistics I, that is he, is solidly behind trying

:01:17. > :01:20.to do that. He's not also said that education that legislation goes for

:01:21. > :01:24.a long and I agree, but equally must do more. It's not necessary or

:01:25. > :01:27.published a set out crimes in legislation through publication of

:01:28. > :01:33.this data, I am determined to make the data that we publish robust,

:01:34. > :01:36.consistent and accessible. To this end, I'm actively considering how

:01:37. > :01:45.best to publish this data as an official to -- statistic. The

:01:46. > :01:47.commanding officer's discussion to investigate, I wish to reassure the

:01:48. > :01:52.committee that Armed Forces already have procedures to ensure that

:01:53. > :01:56.allegations of sexual assault are handled appropriately. The

:01:57. > :02:00.commanding officer's ditty in that respect is clear. -- duty. This

:02:01. > :02:03.starting point is that if a commanding officer that becomes

:02:04. > :02:06.aware of allegation or evidence indicating the original person at a

:02:07. > :02:11.service events may have been committed by someone under his

:02:12. > :02:15.command, he must ensure that it is investigated appropriately. This is

:02:16. > :02:19.a specific statutory duty under the Armed Forces act the thousand six.

:02:20. > :02:23.The commanding officer must therefore refer the matter to the

:02:24. > :02:26.service police if this would be appropriate. I should remind the

:02:27. > :02:29.committee that the service police can and do act on their own

:02:30. > :02:32.initiatives. Even if a commanding officer does not think it

:02:33. > :02:36.appropriate to insure that service police are aware of the case. For

:02:37. > :02:41.example, where they are approached by a victim witness where they come

:02:42. > :02:44.across the offence was patrolling off where the civilian police have

:02:45. > :02:50.been involved and passed the case to the service police. Almost all of

:02:51. > :02:54.the very large number of sexual offences under the sexual offences

:02:55. > :02:59.act 2003 including wood rape and assault by penetration are already

:03:00. > :03:01.settled offences. If he commanding officer comes aware of allegations

:03:02. > :03:05.or evidence indicating the original person that one of these offences

:03:06. > :03:09.might have been committed by someone under his command, he must report

:03:10. > :03:12.this to the service police. The issue we must consider is whether a

:03:13. > :03:15.commanding officer should have any discretion as to whether having to

:03:16. > :03:20.report an allegation of sexual assault, exposure or voyeurism to

:03:21. > :03:25.the service police. In circumstances where a victim or witness does not

:03:26. > :03:27.report the matter to the service or civilian police and the service

:03:28. > :03:32.police are not otherwise aware of that matter, it is important to note

:03:33. > :03:35.that before a commanding officer text command yesterday in the DJ mag

:03:36. > :03:44.exercise his powers under the act and has legal access to advice 24

:03:45. > :03:51.hours a day, seven days a week. -- takes command he has the gall to

:03:52. > :03:55.advice on how to exercise. The commanding officer must take legal

:03:56. > :03:59.advice with this has been alleged. The man who has also been amended to

:04:00. > :04:03.make a specific mention of these events is in the section on the how

:04:04. > :04:07.to investigate. It states those to be a presumption that the commanding

:04:08. > :04:12.officer should ensure that the service police are aware of

:04:13. > :04:16.allegations of such an offence. Crucially, whilst it will really be

:04:17. > :04:20.appropriate for the commanding officer not to refer allegation of

:04:21. > :04:22.sexual assault to the service police, the offence is so wide that

:04:23. > :04:27.I considered is right for the commanding officer have some

:04:28. > :04:33.discretion, taking into account the wishes of the victim. I fear and

:04:34. > :04:36.aren't intended consequence of this proposal might be to discourage some

:04:37. > :04:40.victims to come forward as the matter of reporting to the police

:04:41. > :04:45.would be taken out of their hands and the victim always retains the

:04:46. > :04:50.ability to report directly to the service police. I believe a robust

:04:51. > :04:54.framework already exists and is not Mrs Harry to impose upon commanding

:04:55. > :04:59.officer is a statutory duty that does not apply to any other

:05:00. > :05:05.employer. -- is not to oppose upon a commanding officer. This is a

:05:06. > :05:09.guarded -- to make sure it is not done regardless of what anybody may

:05:10. > :05:14.want. Investigations into serious offences, in this group is the

:05:15. > :05:18.honourable men their's -- honourable member's amendment to require this

:05:19. > :05:25.case is injured allegations of murder, rape and sexual assaults to

:05:26. > :05:29.be undertaken by civilian police and all prescriptions for such offences

:05:30. > :05:32.to be undertaken by the civilian Crown Prosecution Service. The

:05:33. > :05:36.service police and service prosecuting authority have the

:05:37. > :05:39.necessary expertise and independence to effectively investigate and

:05:40. > :05:43.prosecute serious offences, including murder, rape and sexual

:05:44. > :05:47.salt by and against service personnel. The service justice

:05:48. > :05:52.system has been good night by the UK courts and Strasbourg and has helped

:05:53. > :05:56.to be compliant with the European Convention on human rights. --

:05:57. > :05:59.sexual assault. This is based on conventions and prosecutions in the

:06:00. > :06:02.UK and abroad were civilian police do not have jurisdiction. The

:06:03. > :06:08.service police have been held to be structurally and independent from

:06:09. > :06:11.eating them -- from the chain of command. In capability, they are

:06:12. > :06:15.trained and able to carry out in this case is in the most serious

:06:16. > :06:19.offences at home and abroad, all prospective members of the special

:06:20. > :06:22.investigation Branch that investigates serious crimes must

:06:23. > :06:26.pass a serious crime investigation course before being selected for

:06:27. > :06:30.that unit. Officers receive specialist training on handling

:06:31. > :06:34.sexual offences, investigated techniques, frenzied awareness, with

:06:35. > :06:37.witnesses and suspects. The preservation of evidence and

:06:38. > :06:43.interaction with victims. Selected members of the service police

:06:44. > :06:48.continued range of specialists with advanced detective training at the

:06:49. > :06:52.advanced cold of policing or with the College of policing or are

:06:53. > :06:58.accredited by the college. At the service prosecuting authority,

:06:59. > :07:01.prosecutors are fringed to effectively prosecute serious cases,

:07:02. > :07:08.for example, prosecutions of serious sexual offences buyers a specialist

:07:09. > :07:13.training course and the FPA ensures that the visions that make decisions

:07:14. > :07:17.on Tiger only taken by prosecutors who have complete it that training.

:07:18. > :07:23.I should also mention the prosecutors protocol of 2011. This

:07:24. > :07:26.protocol between the Director of Public Prosecutions, director of

:07:27. > :07:29.service prosecutions and the Defence Secretary recognises that any

:07:30. > :07:32.offence can be dealt with by the service authorities. The main

:07:33. > :07:37.principle in deciding who acts is whether the offence had any civilian

:07:38. > :07:42.context, especially a civilian victim. The protocol provides case

:07:43. > :07:45.with a civilian context are dealt with by the civilian justice system

:07:46. > :07:49.and I should also speak about independence. Both the service

:07:50. > :07:53.police and director of service prosecutions. This is important

:07:54. > :07:54.because I want to make clear there is no room for interference

:07:55. > :08:08.investigations. Like any police. That there is

:08:09. > :08:12.recognition that a procedure needs to be in place to make sure the

:08:13. > :08:16.investigation is not compromised or perceived to be compromised. It is

:08:17. > :08:21.recognised when a particular service police force should not investigate.

:08:22. > :08:25.There is a protocol that provides for another service police force to

:08:26. > :08:29.carry out an investigation where a service police force would otherwise

:08:30. > :08:34.be investigating its own personnel. In regard to the independence of the

:08:35. > :08:44.Director of Public Prosecutions, he isn't civilian office holder and a

:08:45. > :08:48.-- he is a civilian officeholder. The creation of the office of

:08:49. > :08:53.Director of service prosecutions and his appointment by Her Majesty, the

:08:54. > :08:57.director is appointed on the basis of a fair and open competition. The

:08:58. > :09:02.provision for who may act on his behalf specified by lawyers acting

:09:03. > :09:06.on his behalf and the necessary statutory powers for prosecutions

:09:07. > :09:11.and service court given to the director personally and not the

:09:12. > :09:14.chain of command. I believe that the service police and the service

:09:15. > :09:20.prosecuting authority at the Abbey necessary the expertise to prosecute

:09:21. > :09:24.a full range of offences. I believe it is important to remember that

:09:25. > :09:27.given that service personnel are subject to the provisions of the

:09:28. > :09:32.Armed Forces act, wherever they serve in the world, service police

:09:33. > :09:37.remain able to investigate in these areas where their civilian

:09:38. > :09:41.counterparts may not, ensuring that our personnel are dealt with fairly

:09:42. > :09:45.and consistently. I am confident we do not need to legislate further on

:09:46. > :09:48.these matters and on that basis, I would hope that the honourable

:09:49. > :09:59.member for Durham would withdraw his amendment. Can I thank the Minister

:10:00. > :10:05.for his reply? Certainly in terms, I was not in any way questioning the

:10:06. > :10:13.independence of the military service police but I think there is an

:10:14. > :10:18.ongoing concern about the capacity and expertise of those. I think one

:10:19. > :10:25.of the ways forward on that, which I know the MOD are again moving very

:10:26. > :10:30.slowly on, is independent inspections in terms of that force.

:10:31. > :10:34.In terms of the commanding officer, I hear what the minister said and I

:10:35. > :10:37.have to say that I think when General command to -- General Carter

:10:38. > :10:45.came before the committee, people were assured that in practice, these

:10:46. > :10:56.allegations are taken very seriously and that legal advice is not only

:10:57. > :11:01.available but in fact referred to on occasions when these victims come

:11:02. > :11:06.forward. In saying that, again, if it is not going to be on the face of

:11:07. > :11:11.this bill, I would think the services would need to consider

:11:12. > :11:17.whether they codified that in some kind of internal process, whether an

:11:18. > :11:23.officer should take legal advice before deciding on whether to take

:11:24. > :11:31.forward a complaint or dismissing it. Can I welcome the common sense

:11:32. > :11:37.that has finally blossomed in terms of the publication of statistics?

:11:38. > :11:42.The Minister is right that these statistics are available and I

:11:43. > :11:46.cannot think that the ministry have anything to hide by not publishing

:11:47. > :11:52.them. I respect his commitment to come up with a system by which they

:11:53. > :11:55.should be published annually and I accept that more work needs to be

:11:56. > :12:04.done in terms of what format they are produced in and where they are

:12:05. > :12:10.produced. But, with the passage of this bill, I will certainly and

:12:11. > :12:17.fellow committee members will be looking to see that it balances. I

:12:18. > :12:24.would give a word of advice in that in my experience, to insist of a

:12:25. > :12:27.timeline on this otherwise, no disrespect to Abel civil servants in

:12:28. > :12:35.the Ministry of Defence, but it might not -- it might get pushed off

:12:36. > :12:42.into a sideline. I do think it is important, this point. I do not

:12:43. > :12:47.think the military have anything to fear by producing these figures and

:12:48. > :12:50.I think it would add to the good work that is being done at the

:12:51. > :12:57.Ministry of Defence and in terms of the three services in trying to

:12:58. > :13:08.address this issue. With those comments, I petition the house to

:13:09. > :13:19.withdraw the clause. Ayes we now come to new clause eight. Again,

:13:20. > :13:26.this is new clause eight which is a clause I moved in committee

:13:27. > :13:34.consideration of the bill. It affects those veterans who have the

:13:35. > :13:39.misfortune of suffering from a condition, I know from your

:13:40. > :13:45.background that you know what it is and the terrible condition and

:13:46. > :13:55.debilitating condition for those affected and also the death sentence

:13:56. > :14:05.it imposes on the individuals. The background to the proposal is that

:14:06. > :14:14.in 2014, the government set up a scheme to pay lump sum compensation

:14:15. > :14:16.to civilians who conducted it -- contracted it, where former

:14:17. > :14:23.employers and insurance companies could not be traced. In terms of

:14:24. > :14:33.veterans, they are not covered by that scheme on the basis that under

:14:34. > :14:43.the Armed Forces act of 1987, there is not an option for them to sue the

:14:44. > :14:46.Ministry of Defence for the debilitation or the death sentence

:14:47. > :14:52.which is imposed in terms of those suffering from this condition. We

:14:53. > :14:56.know and that in all areas, great strides are being made in terms of

:14:57. > :15:02.improving the health and safety around how we handle asbestos and

:15:03. > :15:11.within the Ministry of Defence but we are talking some cases that go

:15:12. > :15:19.back 30, if not longer, years. Those terrible conditions, it is very

:15:20. > :15:26.random in who it affects. In a previous life when I was dealing

:15:27. > :15:35.with a trade union, I saw workers who used asbestos and had asbestos

:15:36. > :15:41.scars in their hands but did they suffer from other conditions? They

:15:42. > :15:51.did not but some people who were exposed to asbestos in low levels

:15:52. > :15:58.did contract this condition. The veterans are affected, they can

:15:59. > :16:03.apply for a 100% war pension if diagnosis is agreed to be related to