26/01/2016

:00:07. > :00:13.Good morning and welcome to BBC Parliament's live coverage of the

:00:14. > :00:17.Commons. In an hour, an urgent question is being axed by the Shadow

:00:18. > :00:22.Health Secretary about the death from sepsis of the 12-month-old

:00:23. > :00:26.Cornwall boy, William Mead. A report said he might have lived if NHS call

:00:27. > :00:31.handlers had realised the seriousness of this condition. The

:00:32. > :00:37.main business is the debate on the details of the charity's protection

:00:38. > :00:41.and social investment bill. This gives England and Wales powers to

:00:42. > :00:47.close down unfit charities. Don't forget to join me for a round-up of

:00:48. > :00:53.the day in both Houses of Parliament at 11pm tonight. First, questions to

:00:54. > :00:58.the Justice Secretary, Michael Gove, and his ministerial. First question

:00:59. > :01:10.concerns the autonomy of prison governors.

:01:11. > :01:23.Order, order. Questions to the Secretary of State for Justice. Our

:01:24. > :01:27.prison systems need reform and we need to give governors greater

:01:28. > :01:34.freedoms to innovate to find better ways of rehabilitating offenders. In

:01:35. > :01:38.December, the outgoing Chief Inspector of prisons said he was

:01:39. > :01:44.concerned about Islamic extremism in prisons. Some prisons, including one

:01:45. > :01:49.in my constituency, the Muslim population is 40% of inmates. What

:01:50. > :01:56.additional powers or is about is the Government giving to tackle

:01:57. > :01:59.extremism? Radicalisation in prison is a genuine danger not just in

:02:00. > :02:04.England but across the European Union. That is why we have charged a

:02:05. > :02:07.former prison governor with reviewing how we handle not just the

:02:08. > :02:14.security concerns but also the dangerous spread of peer-to-peer

:02:15. > :02:18.radicalisation in our organisations. In appointing a new Chief Executive

:02:19. > :02:30.to follow in the work of Nick artwork, Peter Clark goes very much

:02:31. > :02:35.in his favour. I welcome the steps being taken to tackle radicalisation

:02:36. > :02:40.of prisons but the problem exists once people, outside prisons and in

:02:41. > :02:43.a previous report of the Home Affairs Select Committee, we have

:02:44. > :02:49.talked about the need to monitor people when they go outside. Can he

:02:50. > :02:56.ensure that remains that connection with the Home Office, so those that

:02:57. > :03:00.have had lessons or initiatives to do with counter radicalisation, that

:03:01. > :03:03.they continue with that when they get outside? I make it my business

:03:04. > :03:10.to talk regularly with the Home Secretary on this issue. I also know

:03:11. > :03:15.that my honourable friend, the Minister for prisons and the Right

:03:16. > :03:18.honourable member, the Minister for security, they meet regularly to

:03:19. > :03:22.make sure we do everything possible to monitor it. There is a

:03:23. > :03:26.recognition that we must deal with violent extremism but extremism

:03:27. > :03:29.itself. Those who seek to ride it applies to inject the poison of

:03:30. > :03:41.Islamist into the minds of young men need to be counted every step of the

:03:42. > :03:44.way. We are determined to help eliminate the budget deficit and

:03:45. > :03:50.deliver better justice. That is why we are cutting 15% from the budget

:03:51. > :03:55.over the spending review and finding 5.3 billion to overhaul the prisoner

:03:56. > :03:58.state so it can drive down reoffending and constituents get

:03:59. > :04:04.better value for money and better bang for their buck out of the

:04:05. > :04:07.justice system. At the Ministry of Justice has faced spending cuts as

:04:08. > :04:11.deep or deeper than any other department in Whitehall. I am not

:04:12. > :04:16.sure despite the occasional criticism and row, the public has

:04:17. > :04:20.noted any discernible reduction in the service provided by the

:04:21. > :04:27.Department. Will my honourable friend someone in the secretaries of

:04:28. > :04:31.state for health, social security, international development and

:04:32. > :04:36.defence and given -- give them a tongue lashing on how we can emulate

:04:37. > :04:40.the private sector and create more wealth and more goods and more

:04:41. > :04:46.enterprise and more deregulation and more lower taxation and still

:04:47. > :04:52.provide better services? I thank the honourable gentleman for his

:04:53. > :04:57.remarks. As a former chairman, you will appreciate we have already

:04:58. > :05:02.slimmed back office by 600 million so we could extend rehabilitation to

:05:03. > :05:06.the 45,000 offenders on short sentences, now we are cutting the

:05:07. > :05:10.admin budget by 50% but investing 700 million to modernise our courts.

:05:11. > :05:14.It shows you can drive efficiencies and deliver a more effective system,

:05:15. > :05:21.whether it is the delays at court or the offenders passing through them.

:05:22. > :05:25.Given the Secretary of State's U-turns on things like the criminal

:05:26. > :05:29.court charge and a band of prisoners being sent box, can I suggest a good

:05:30. > :05:36.way of saving money would be to avoid such mistakes and listen to

:05:37. > :05:41.the Labour Party? With great respect, given the litany of

:05:42. > :05:45.mistakes and errors and systemic failings that we have had to clear

:05:46. > :05:53.up over the last five years and continue, we might reject that

:05:54. > :05:57.particular piece of counsel. One important area in which both service

:05:58. > :06:02.can be enhanced and value for money made, is through greater efficiency

:06:03. > :06:07.both the court estate and court system. Is my honourable friend

:06:08. > :06:11.satisfied that the ministry has sufficient in-house capacity to deal

:06:12. > :06:15.adequately with major issues like restructuring where you have to

:06:16. > :06:21.negotiate highly commercial contractual levels will he bring

:06:22. > :06:25.outside expertise when necessary? I have already explained some of the

:06:26. > :06:29.back-office savings that we are making, not only to deliver better

:06:30. > :06:33.value to the taxpayer, but to find the savings to reinvest. He is right

:06:34. > :06:36.to say that where we need to engage with the private sector or the

:06:37. > :06:44.voluntary sector to take advantage of that ingenuity and innovation, we

:06:45. > :06:48.will do so. Figures released yesterday by the Department show

:06:49. > :06:52.that more Ministry of Justice staff received bonuses last year than the

:06:53. > :06:57.previous year and that the average size of bonuses increased by 7%.

:06:58. > :07:04.Considering the whole public sector has had a pay rise cap at 1%, is it

:07:05. > :07:09.not a case of one rule for one and one for another? That is not fair or

:07:10. > :07:14.reasonable to any of the hard-working public servants that we

:07:15. > :07:19.have. There are very strict rules around bonuses within the 1% pay cap

:07:20. > :07:23.and the guidance of RAM that is. It is important, notwithstanding the

:07:24. > :07:26.savings that we have to make and in relation to bureaucracy and

:07:27. > :07:33.back-office, that we recognise outstanding performance. We are the

:07:34. > :07:37.only country in the world which uses taxpayer's revenue to pay lawyers to

:07:38. > :07:46.sue soldiers as they return from active duty. Is it an area of saving

:07:47. > :07:51.that the minister might consider? He is right that we need to make sure

:07:52. > :07:55.we have a balanced approach to Access to justice and I will come on

:07:56. > :07:59.and answer some of the specific questions around the military claims

:08:00. > :08:03.later. One particular area we need to look at is the rules around legal

:08:04. > :08:10.aid matters what we are doing and that is what we continue to pursue.

:08:11. > :08:15.Talking of value for money, how much has the miscalculation of divorce

:08:16. > :08:18.settlements cost so far? The 2200 closed cases will require legal

:08:19. > :08:24.advice and negotiation to correct and who will pay for this? The

:08:25. > :08:30.taxpayer or the people his department have badly let down? The

:08:31. > :08:35.legal press has dubbed him the Minister of cock ups. Doesn't the

:08:36. > :08:41.whole ministerial team deserve that title? When we make mistakes, we

:08:42. > :08:44.recognise them and we have written to all of those people affected to

:08:45. > :08:53.make sure that it doesn't happen again. Our announcement to close

:08:54. > :08:58.Holloway prison signals a new beginning in the way that we treat

:08:59. > :09:02.female offenders. It reflects our commitment to hold woman in

:09:03. > :09:05.environments that better meet their specific needs and better support

:09:06. > :09:16.their rehabilitation and helping them towards better lives upon

:09:17. > :09:19.release. I have fostered the whole lady's prison in Derbyshire and I

:09:20. > :09:22.wonder if she can outline the changes that are happening at

:09:23. > :09:31.Holloway and how they will assist the prisoners and staff at Foston

:09:32. > :09:33.Hall as well. Foston Hall is a resettlement prison and a much

:09:34. > :09:37.better placed to support inmates throughout their time in prison and

:09:38. > :09:42.back out into the community. She will know that many female offenders

:09:43. > :09:48.have complex needs and that is why we have introduced a personality

:09:49. > :09:51.disorder pathway and case management systems for female offenders. We

:09:52. > :09:56.have ensured family engagement workers are in place at all public

:09:57. > :10:03.sector women's prisons including Foston Hall. The minister might know

:10:04. > :10:07.that a woman's prison is close to my constituency. Will she agree that

:10:08. > :10:11.when we look at what happens to women in prison, very often it is

:10:12. > :10:15.literacy that is stopping them getting back and leading a good life

:10:16. > :10:19.and stop it is also the fact that many people in prison, winning --

:10:20. > :10:25.women particularly can have problems and are on the autism scale and they

:10:26. > :10:29.are never tested. Could we have more attention to looking at special

:10:30. > :10:36.educational needs in women's prisons so we can help them all? He makes an

:10:37. > :10:40.excellent point and we will take that into consideration. I have

:10:41. > :10:44.visited Newhall prison towards the tail end of last year and had a look

:10:45. > :10:48.at some of the excellent work that they are doing to help women

:10:49. > :10:51.offenders both with literacy, numeracy in -- issues and various

:10:52. > :11:03.other complex needs that they encounter. She will be aware of the

:11:04. > :11:09.work of the rehabilitation of... It began its work in a prison in my

:11:10. > :11:20.constituency where it was a category C /T resettlement prison.

:11:21. > :11:33.-- C/ D resettlement prison. He makes an important point. We do have

:11:34. > :11:38.so many of our female offenders coming to the prison system with

:11:39. > :11:45.both addictions to substance tours and alcohol and it is fundamental

:11:46. > :11:50.that, that is the key part of their rehabilitation process. On the

:11:51. > :11:57.advice of organisations, the Scottish Government has been looking

:11:58. > :12:01.into sentences of women of six months or less and helping them to

:12:02. > :12:02.stop reoffending. When the minister commit to rolling this out across

:12:03. > :12:21.the whole of the UK? I am very keen to have a look at the

:12:22. > :12:24.Scottish moral and see what progress has been made. I am also keen to

:12:25. > :12:26.intervene earlier on in women's offending journey to prevent as many

:12:27. > :12:29.people as possible from ending up in prison. Every single woman in prison

:12:30. > :12:34.represents a potential broken family and potentially children taken into

:12:35. > :12:38.care. Instead of trying to turn the women's prison estate into some kind

:12:39. > :12:43.of holiday camp, can I suggest that the minister instead, given that she

:12:44. > :12:47.is normally such a great champion for gender equality, that if a woman

:12:48. > :12:51.commits an offence, she should be treated in exactly the same way as a

:12:52. > :12:54.man? We still have the case that for every single category of offence,

:12:55. > :12:59.and man is more likely to be sent to prison than a woman. Why should a

:13:00. > :13:06.female offender for burglary be any better than male offender? Mr

:13:07. > :13:10.Speaker, I fear we may have been down this road before with my

:13:11. > :13:14.honourable friend. But I take on board his comments. Of course,

:13:15. > :13:19.sentencing is very much a matter for the judiciary. But I will always

:13:20. > :13:22.defend my strong held belief that equality of outcome is what we are

:13:23. > :13:27.looking for in the female was in a state. And at the moment, female

:13:28. > :13:31.prisoners are much more likely to suffer lots of complex issues, lots

:13:32. > :13:37.of Comdex needs, and far less likely to gain employment once they leave

:13:38. > :13:48.prison. And that is something I am looking to tackle. Quite rightly, we

:13:49. > :13:53.do not tolerate drugs in prison and we are bringing forward tough new

:13:54. > :13:55.measures including the new legislation on psychoactive

:13:56. > :13:59.substances. Possession in a prison will be a criminal offence, unlike

:14:00. > :14:06.in the rest of the country. If the scale of harm demonstrated by a

:14:07. > :14:10.significant increase in suicides was happening in other places where

:14:11. > :14:15.there is a duty of care - hospitals, children's homes, schools - would we

:14:16. > :14:21.not have a root and branch review of how best to tackle supply and demand

:14:22. > :14:27.for drugs in prisons? What we must make sure is that these drugs do not

:14:28. > :14:32.get into our prisons. Psychoactive substances have been in our prisons

:14:33. > :14:34.now for some time. It was a request from prison officers and prisoners

:14:35. > :14:39.around the country that we actually made sure that it should become a

:14:40. > :14:43.criminal offence, possession. We need new sniffer dogs which can

:14:44. > :14:47.sniff these products as well. They are in training at the moment. We

:14:48. > :14:52.must eradicate these drugs from our prisons. The national offender

:14:53. > :14:56.management service has revealed that the amount of alcohol found in

:14:57. > :15:03.prisons in England and Wales has almost trebled since the government

:15:04. > :15:09.took office. What steps is he taking on this? One thing we can do is to

:15:10. > :15:13.make sure that individual governors have full control so that they can

:15:14. > :15:17.work with their staff. We need to make sure that alcohol which is not

:15:18. > :15:21.supposed to be there is not there. A lot of this is actually brewed

:15:22. > :15:25.within the prisons, and we need to work very hard to make sure this

:15:26. > :15:30.does not happen. Drugs use is widespread throughout every jail in

:15:31. > :15:35.this country. Is there really any realistic prospect whatsoever of

:15:36. > :15:39.having a drug-free prison establishment? Mr Speaker, the

:15:40. > :15:43.Prison Service works really very, very hard to try to make sure that

:15:44. > :15:48.we eradicate as many drugs as possible. The new legislation will

:15:49. > :15:50.help. We know that assaults on prison officers and inmates from

:15:51. > :15:54.people taking psychoactive substances has become a blight on

:15:55. > :15:59.our prisons. With the new legislation, we will have powers

:16:00. > :16:05.which were not there before. There has been recent reports of prison

:16:06. > :16:10.officers falling ill after inhaling inmates' legal highs. I know you

:16:11. > :16:13.have said we are introducing new legislation, but how will this come

:16:14. > :16:18.into effect when present governors are leaving? We need a culture from

:16:19. > :16:26.the top to implement, so how can we do this? One way we can improve the

:16:27. > :16:30.situation for prison officers is to listen to them. They categorically

:16:31. > :16:34.asked us for the band. At the moment it is legal. It will be banned from

:16:35. > :16:39.once it gets royal assent. From April it is a criminal offence in

:16:40. > :16:45.prisons. That is what the prison officers asked for, and that is what

:16:46. > :16:48.we have given them. Mr Speaker, we are committed to making sure that

:16:49. > :16:54.our justice system delivers faster and fairer justice for all our

:16:55. > :16:59.citizens. Our tribunals will bring quicker and fairer access to justice

:17:00. > :17:03.and create a justice system which reflects the way people use services

:17:04. > :17:06.today. We have ensured that legal aid remains available for the

:17:07. > :17:11.highest priority cases, where life or liberty is at stake, where they

:17:12. > :17:14.face the loss of their home, in cases of domestic violence, or where

:17:15. > :17:19.their children may be taken care. As the Lord Chief Justice

:17:20. > :17:22.extraordinarily reported two weeks ago, and I quote, our system of

:17:23. > :17:29.justice has become unaffordable to most. Two constituents were sacked

:17:30. > :17:32.unfairly, one went to a tribunal, was not able to afford legal

:17:33. > :17:36.representation, therefore lost. The other image of the gave up. With

:17:37. > :17:41.justice now only available to the well off, does the minister have any

:17:42. > :17:47.serious proposals to open up access to justice to ordinary people? I am

:17:48. > :17:50.very grateful to the right honourable gentleman for raising the

:17:51. > :17:54.issue of employment tribunals. I would like to say that it is the aim

:17:55. > :17:58.of this government to make sure that people do not have to go to court or

:17:59. > :18:03.tribunals in the first place, and thereby not have to incur legal

:18:04. > :18:08.expenses or experience stress. In the case of employment tribunals, he

:18:09. > :18:12.may not be aware, but the ACAS conciliation service, in their first

:18:13. > :18:18.12 months, found that 83,000 people used to that service and I hope that

:18:19. > :18:21.in future, when he has problems brought to his surgery from his

:18:22. > :18:26.constituents, he will be able to point them to that free service. As

:18:27. > :18:31.the government changed the criteria for access to legal aid, and since

:18:32. > :18:34.they did this, there has been a huge increase in domestic violence. As

:18:35. > :18:39.the government made any assessment of the link? We constantly make sure

:18:40. > :18:43.that matters are kept under review. As far as the act is concerned, we

:18:44. > :18:49.are committed to having a review between 3-5 years. The Law Society

:18:50. > :18:55.describes access to justice as being on the verge of a crisis. Funding

:18:56. > :19:00.for civil cases has fallen 62% since civil legal aid was cut. Will the

:19:01. > :19:04.minister carry out a full review to understand the equality impact of

:19:05. > :19:10.this change in civil legal aid? As I just said, Mr Speaker, we will be

:19:11. > :19:15.carrying out a full review of the fermentation of this. I would say

:19:16. > :19:19.that we still have one of the most generous legal aid budgets in the

:19:20. > :19:23.world, not withstanding the reductions we have made. Some of

:19:24. > :19:27.those who would struggle to pay court fees the most are those where

:19:28. > :19:31.there has been family breakdown, often in chaotic families. What

:19:32. > :19:35.plans does he have to simplify and reduced cost to access child

:19:36. > :19:41.arrangement orders? And will this include any further statutory rights

:19:42. > :19:47.for grandparents? On court fees, where there is difficulty for people

:19:48. > :19:57.to attend court, then there is a fee remission system available which can

:19:58. > :20:01.be remission in full or in part. We learnt this week that a district

:20:02. > :20:05.judge is suing the Ministry of Justice, blowing the whistle on the

:20:06. > :20:09.rise in death threats and increasingly violent claimants which

:20:10. > :20:12.our judges are having to Dale with, day in, day out. Coming their and

:20:13. > :20:16.after the Lord Chief Justice 's warning that judges are facing a

:20:17. > :20:19.rising number of challenging and emotionally charged cases, what

:20:20. > :20:23.action is the minister to address these claims, or is this just

:20:24. > :20:27.another mission which the failed austerity parties of his party have

:20:28. > :20:33.made our courts more dangerous both judges and the victims? May I first

:20:34. > :20:36.of all welcome the honourable lady to her new position. She will

:20:37. > :20:39.appreciate that a given that there is ongoing litigation, I cannot

:20:40. > :20:50.possibly comment at the dispatch box. With your permission, Mr

:20:51. > :20:54.Speaker, I would like to grow this question with questions in 11 and

:20:55. > :20:57.13. Dividing prisoners with vocational and employment

:20:58. > :21:02.opportunities are implementing important factors in preventing

:21:03. > :21:08.reoffending. The Employers Forum For Reducing Reoffending is working with

:21:09. > :21:14.the department to increase involvement of more businesses. It

:21:15. > :21:19.also has an important role to play in helping ex offenders find

:21:20. > :21:23.employment. I am grateful. I am sure he would agree with me that it is

:21:24. > :21:27.beholden on as many employers as possible to offer training in

:21:28. > :21:35.prisons so that when prisoners leave prison, they are ready for

:21:36. > :21:40.employment. Could I invite him to welcome the work that Clean Sheet

:21:41. > :21:43.does in our prison estate, especially in guys Marsh in my

:21:44. > :21:50.constituency, which I have seen at first hand, really getting people

:21:51. > :21:54.ready for work. I thank him for his interest and I am delighted to

:21:55. > :21:57.praise the work of Clean Sheet and so many organisations which try and

:21:58. > :22:03.get prisoners into work. We have a number of companies, Mr Speaker,

:22:04. > :22:11.including Timpson's, Halfords, restaurants, and many others, who

:22:12. > :22:16.are rising to the challenge. And we want many more to join them. Does he

:22:17. > :22:20.agree that providing work and the right sort of work is the real key

:22:21. > :22:24.to any effective rehabilitation for prisoners? My honourable friend is

:22:25. > :22:28.absolutely right. We have hard evidence that if a prisoner leaves

:22:29. > :22:36.prison and goes into work, they are less likely to reoffend. We know

:22:37. > :22:39.reoffending costs between ?9 billion -?13 billion per year. And it

:22:40. > :22:43.creates many more victims. That is what we can avoid by getting many

:22:44. > :22:51.more prisoners into work. My honourable friend will know that as

:22:52. > :22:55.access to skills is key, and whilst I welcome what he said about the

:22:56. > :22:59.ploy is Forum, what more is the Government going to do to get more

:23:00. > :23:03.employers to recognise the potential of providing those skills and then

:23:04. > :23:09.the opportunities to employ ex-offenders on release? As a London

:23:10. > :23:13.MP, my honourable friend may have noted that a week or so ago, the

:23:14. > :23:18.Mayor of London pointed out that when employers hire ex-offenders,

:23:19. > :23:24.they report above-average commitment and loyalty. So, not only is this an

:23:25. > :23:28.important part of social responsibility, it is actually very

:23:29. > :23:32.good business sense. London is actually leading the way in this

:23:33. > :23:35.area, with more joined up work between local enterprise

:23:36. > :23:38.partnerships getting extra skills funding into prisons. I want to see

:23:39. > :23:43.what is happening in London spread across the whole of England and

:23:44. > :23:49.Wales. Mr Speaker, in November, I raised the issue of insurance

:23:50. > :23:54.premiums and the barrier that they pose to employment for ex-offenders.

:23:55. > :23:57.I am pleased that the minister has engaged in this issue, but I wonder,

:23:58. > :24:03.does he have an update for the House? I do indeed. The honourable

:24:04. > :24:09.gentleman is right to pursue this issue. One issue I have come across

:24:10. > :24:16.recently is insurers just requesting a blanket stipulation that they have

:24:17. > :24:23.no ex-offenders on their premises. I am a former chartered insurer, and I

:24:24. > :24:25.will be having a meeting with the Association of British Insurers

:24:26. > :24:30.shortly in order to challenge them on this issue, to see if that is

:24:31. > :24:37.really necessary. As a former underwriter myself, I suspect it

:24:38. > :24:41.probably isn't. The minister has talked of this morning about

:24:42. > :24:43.employment on release from prisons. Education and skills are crucial to

:24:44. > :24:48.an offender's chance of making something of themselves and getting

:24:49. > :24:54.a job on release. But he admitted in answer to a question that Prison

:24:55. > :25:01.Service anti-riot squads were drafted in on 339 occasions in the

:25:02. > :25:05.year to 9th of December 2015, an increase of 52% on the previous

:25:06. > :25:09.year. So does he accept that prison overcrowding, coupled with his

:25:10. > :25:13.governments cuts in resources, has led to a prison estate which is not

:25:14. > :25:16.fit for educational purpose? First of all, let me warmly congratulate

:25:17. > :25:21.the honourable lady on her new position. I look forward to debating

:25:22. > :25:26.these issues with her in the months to come. She raises the issue of

:25:27. > :25:30.education and she is right to do so. It is a crucial part of getting

:25:31. > :25:35.offenders into work. But the governments whole prison reform

:25:36. > :25:40.programme is front and centre of part of the answer to try and deal

:25:41. > :25:43.with the issues of violence and disorder which she has identified.

:25:44. > :25:50.More purposeful work, better education, better outcomes, better

:25:51. > :25:52.prisons. Hampshire's community rehabilitation company plays a vital

:25:53. > :25:56.role connecting prisons and offenders with local ploy is across

:25:57. > :26:00.the haven't constituency. Will the minister join me in congratulating

:26:01. > :26:04.them on their work and also to encourage more employers to

:26:05. > :26:08.contribute to job fairs run by members of this House? I certainly

:26:09. > :26:15.will. Get me warmly congratulate my honourable friend not only on

:26:16. > :26:19.organising a jobs fair in his own constituency, a very practical way

:26:20. > :26:24.to help our constituents find work, but also realising that that jobs

:26:25. > :26:28.fair needs to be equally open to ex-offenders. He is leading the way

:26:29. > :26:32.and I hope others will follow. Before I called the honourable

:26:33. > :26:36.member for Barrow in Furness, I would remind the House that the

:26:37. > :26:43.Crown Prosecution Service is reconsidering this case and a second

:26:44. > :26:45.inquest is awaited. Members should take account of that in carefully

:26:46. > :27:01.framing their remarks on the matter. The death of poppy Worthington is

:27:02. > :27:08.deeply distressing and very tragic. I offer my sympathies to those who

:27:09. > :27:19.loved her and those who cared for her. I am unable to comment on the

:27:20. > :27:23.decisions of the. There is nothing more important than keeping children

:27:24. > :27:28.safe. That is why the Government has given child sexual abuse the status

:27:29. > :27:36.of a national threat in the strategic requirement. I thank the

:27:37. > :27:41.Minister for that answer. Our community want accountability and it

:27:42. > :27:47.wants to see improvements in the services that have failed in these

:27:48. > :27:53.circumstances. Will she make clear that there is no reason why the

:27:54. > :28:02.serious case review into Poppy Worthington's death and the report

:28:03. > :28:18.needs to be delayed, pending the second inquest being carried out.

:28:19. > :28:27.A second inquest should be done. They are independent of Government

:28:28. > :28:38.and decide their own timescales. I can confirm that neither are

:28:39. > :28:41.required to wait upon the coroner. Community rehabilitation companies

:28:42. > :28:51.are responsible for supporting any of their staff at risk of redundancy

:28:52. > :28:55.in line with employment law. We are working closely with community

:28:56. > :28:59.rehabilitation companies to make sure they fulfil their contractual

:29:00. > :29:03.commitments to maintain service delivery, reduce reoffending,

:29:04. > :29:09.protect the public and deliver value for money to the taxpayer. There is

:29:10. > :29:16.the potential for 900 probation officers to be made compulsory

:29:17. > :29:20.redundant in the near future. These are the people who stood by the

:29:21. > :29:26.Government at a time when there was the traditional period. They

:29:27. > :29:30.shouldn't be penalised. They should be praised. Justice Secretary

:29:31. > :29:40.guarantee that these professionals receive four voluntary redundancies

:29:41. > :29:50.terms. -- full involuntary redundancy terms. I repeat what I

:29:51. > :29:54.said just now in that we will make sure the community rehabilitation

:29:55. > :29:58.companies comply with employment law as they are supposed to do. We

:29:59. > :30:02.closely monitor their performance in line with the contracts which they

:30:03. > :30:07.have signed but I can tell the honourable gentleman that last year

:30:08. > :30:11.there were 195 extra probation officers qualified. We had 750

:30:12. > :30:15.probation officers in training and that is the largest intact of

:30:16. > :30:24.probation officers for some considerable period of time. Our

:30:25. > :30:32.system of youth justice needs reform. Youth offending us down, the

:30:33. > :30:35.care of youth offenders in custody is not good enough. There are

:30:36. > :30:39.concerns which are heightened following Panorama's investigation

:30:40. > :30:44.into events at the Medway secure training centre. In a statement, I

:30:45. > :30:47.have appointed an independent improvement board to investigate

:30:48. > :30:53.what has happened in Medway and ensure the capability of G4S, and

:30:54. > :31:00.other organisations meet appropriate standards and that it is sufficient.

:31:01. > :31:04.The roll-out of the new minimising and managing physical restraint

:31:05. > :31:12.system has been delayed for a year. In 2013, there are 3000 assault

:31:13. > :31:18.incidents in the secure state, a 7% increase even though the number of

:31:19. > :31:25.people in custody has raised. What is he doing to ensure that near --

:31:26. > :31:28.new systems are implemented? There has been a reduction in the number

:31:29. > :31:33.of young people in the youth estate but as the number has reduced, so

:31:34. > :31:37.those remaining ten to be those who have been arrested for the most

:31:38. > :31:40.violent crimes and to pose the greatest difficulties to those who

:31:41. > :31:45.have to care for them and those who have to keep them in custody. It is

:31:46. > :31:49.important we ensure when restraint is applied, it is done so in a way

:31:50. > :31:54.that minimises risks to Ian Bugler but ensure safety can be restored.

:31:55. > :31:59.One of the purposes of the interviews is to make sure the

:32:00. > :32:07.workforce is trained to restrain young people and protect others. I

:32:08. > :32:12.visited Swanwick Lodge, a secure home for ten to 17-year-olds in my

:32:13. > :32:18.constituency. Swanwick large's work tackles the root causes that led to

:32:19. > :32:22.these young people's loss of education, substance misuse and

:32:23. > :32:29.early intervention. Will he explain what other measures are in place to

:32:30. > :32:33.tackle youth rehabilitation and reduce reoffending? Before she came

:32:34. > :32:37.into this house, she did a great deal of work to help disadvantaged

:32:38. > :32:42.children get better outcomes and she will know that some of those

:32:43. > :32:46.children who end up in trouble with the criminal just system, they grow

:32:47. > :32:49.up in homes where love has been absent or fleeting or when no one

:32:50. > :32:54.has cared enough to tell those children the difference between and

:32:55. > :32:57.wrong. The work conducted by the Education Secretary and the work

:32:58. > :33:01.being led by the Local Government Secretary to tackle the problems of

:33:02. > :33:08.troubled families are integral to ensuring we will reduce the number

:33:09. > :33:14.of young people who fall into crime. It was obvious to those who watched

:33:15. > :33:20.the Panorama programme, that the G4S workforce was underqualified,

:33:21. > :33:25.undertrained and under pressure not to report incidents that should've

:33:26. > :33:30.been reported because of the threat to G4S's profits. Isn't it now time

:33:31. > :33:36.that we recognise that the most difficult and vulnerable children in

:33:37. > :33:40.our system should not be looked after by a profit driven

:33:41. > :33:47.organisation, but by properly trained and publicly accountable

:33:48. > :33:53.staff? I don't doubt his sincerity in is caring for these people. What

:33:54. > :33:57.happened in Medway was terrible. It is important to take on board the

:33:58. > :34:00.fact that there are private sector organisations including G4S which

:34:01. > :34:05.are responsible for the care of young offenders not least in

:34:06. > :34:08.Bridgend and they have been doing an exemplary job in other areas. It is

:34:09. > :34:12.quite wrong to draw conclusions about the private sector or the

:34:13. > :34:16.public sector. What matters is getting outcomes right for children

:34:17. > :34:24.and we should not on the back of human misery try to carry forward a

:34:25. > :34:28.narrow ideological argument. Will he congratulate a distinguished soldier

:34:29. > :34:32.for taking on the airborne initiative of the young offenders

:34:33. > :34:36.institution in Portland does he agree that getting the appropriate

:34:37. > :34:42.young offenders out onto the Moors for five testing days is an

:34:43. > :34:49.excellent scheme which our support? I couldn't agree more. I have to say

:34:50. > :34:51.the capacity of Cadet forces and military involvement turn round the

:34:52. > :34:55.lives of young men who find themselves in trouble and it has

:34:56. > :35:01.been tested over the years will stop everything we can do to support the

:35:02. > :35:11.Education Secretary and support Sir Rupert Smith and rescue the lives of

:35:12. > :35:16.young people, I think we should do. The allegations in the Panorama

:35:17. > :35:20.programme on the 11th of January about Medway secure training centre

:35:21. > :35:28.were truly appalling. I am glad the Secretary of State has listened to

:35:29. > :35:37.the chief Insecta -- Inspector of prisons. The director of Medway has

:35:38. > :35:42.just resigned. The three STC's in England are run by G4S and following

:35:43. > :35:46.a damning inspection report, the contract was taken away from G4S.

:35:47. > :35:50.This has nothing to do with ideology. On the basis of the

:35:51. > :35:56.evidence before us, will the Government to take away G4S's Medway

:35:57. > :36:03.contract and will it ensure G4S is not awarded any future contracts? He

:36:04. > :36:07.is right. It is because these allegations are so serious that we

:36:08. > :36:11.have to investigate them properly. We will investigate what went on and

:36:12. > :36:18.ensure children are safe. When any organisation fails on the delivery

:36:19. > :36:22.of public services, we will take steps to remove that contract. If

:36:23. > :36:35.G4S have failed in this regard, we will take all steps to keep children

:36:36. > :36:38.safe. I will answer this question with question 15. Violence in

:36:39. > :36:43.prisons has increased and the nature of offenders currently in custody

:36:44. > :36:46.and the widespread of portability of psychiatric substances have

:36:47. > :36:51.contributed to making prisons less safe. There is no single solution to

:36:52. > :36:57.improving safety in prisons but we are making process and trialling the

:36:58. > :37:01.sub body warmth cameras, bringing in sniffer dogs but they are in a way

:37:02. > :37:05.to reduce violence is to give governors the tools to reformat and

:37:06. > :37:09.rehabilitate. One of the threats to safety inside prisons and outside

:37:10. > :37:13.prisons is the ability of inmates to access mobile phones. On Friday, a

:37:14. > :37:19.seven prison and Rochester prison was sentenced to 12 years for

:37:20. > :37:24.arranging the supply of reactivated firearms via a mobile phone from his

:37:25. > :37:31.prison cell. Random checks are only good enough and prison officers do

:37:32. > :37:37.their best but it now is time to cut this and go for mobile phone jamming

:37:38. > :37:42.devices. He is absolutely right. I can tell him we employ a number of

:37:43. > :37:46.measures and her body orifice scanning chairs, metal detecting

:37:47. > :37:53.ones, blockers and specially trained dogs. We need to refocus and

:37:54. > :37:58.redouble our efforts in this area, particularly around blockers and

:37:59. > :38:02.detectors and I can assure him that this is an area that the Secretary

:38:03. > :38:08.of State and I fully engaged in. The safety of young people in our prison

:38:09. > :38:12.state has been called into question by the Panorama programme regarding

:38:13. > :38:15.Medway secure training centre. What assurances can be provided that the

:38:16. > :38:22.safety of young people across the prison estate, not just in Medway,

:38:23. > :38:24.is being prioritised? He will have heard the answer that the Secretary

:38:25. > :38:31.of State has just given to a previous question on this issue. I

:38:32. > :38:35.won't repeat that. We do take this issue extremely seriously and that

:38:36. > :38:39.is the reason why the Secretary of State is commissioned Charlie

:38:40. > :38:42.Taylor, former Chief Executive of the National College for School

:38:43. > :38:49.leadership, to conduct a review of youth justice and youth custody

:38:50. > :38:54.across the board. Not only safety at its heart but improved outcomes for

:38:55. > :39:03.young people in custody. Medway prison 's shows that good order and

:39:04. > :39:06.restraint can be exploited. Will the inquiry look into this across all

:39:07. > :39:12.prisons because I do not think in this day and age it is appropriate?

:39:13. > :39:17.What I would say to the honourable lady, is that there are occasions in

:39:18. > :39:23.custody where for the safety of the young person and for the safety of

:39:24. > :39:25.others, we do have to use restraint. The chief inspector has acknowledged

:39:26. > :39:31.that minimising and managing physical restraint is an

:39:32. > :39:36.improvement. That is only the case if it is used properly and if it is

:39:37. > :39:48.used appropriately and not if it is abused. We are very mindful of that.

:39:49. > :39:52.The ongoing chief inspector of prisons looked into Wormwood Scrubs

:39:53. > :39:56.and one cell was so unsafe com he said he would want to keep a dog

:39:57. > :40:00.there. I know you can't teach an old dog new tricks that I wondered if

:40:01. > :40:11.you could tell us what is being done to deal with the Tory prison crisis?

:40:12. > :40:15.What I would say is I hope she will be fair enough to recognise the fact

:40:16. > :40:21.that this Government has accepted that much of our prison estate is

:40:22. > :40:24.simply not good enough. It is too old, inappropriate and we can

:40:25. > :40:30.provide the education or the work that we need to provide. That is why

:40:31. > :40:33.the Chancellor has provided ?1.3 billion to build my new prisons in

:40:34. > :40:39.addition to the new prison we are building in North Wales and the new

:40:40. > :40:50.house blocks we have delivered and the further two blocks that we will

:40:51. > :40:57.deliver. With permission I will take an answer four questions 12 and 16

:40:58. > :41:01.together. I have met with many international partners from the

:41:02. > :41:04.Council of Europe commission of human rights to the UN High

:41:05. > :41:12.Commissioner of human rights. The Justice Secretary has met with many.

:41:13. > :41:16.These meetings are an important opportunity to reinforce Britain's

:41:17. > :41:20.proud tradition of promoting freedom and discuss how this comment intends

:41:21. > :41:25.to strengthen its both at home and abroad. I'm sure if it was just the

:41:26. > :41:29.Labour Party who are saying don't scrap the Human Rights Act, the

:41:30. > :41:34.minister could roll with it. Prince Zeid, when he met with him, did he

:41:35. > :41:38.say that the Government's proposals will be damaging to victims,

:41:39. > :41:44.contrary to the country's history of global engagements and indeed many

:41:45. > :41:48.of their states would gleefully follow suit? Is it not important

:41:49. > :41:52.that we do listen to the United Nations? He is right we should

:41:53. > :41:56.listen to our international partners. He did not say that to me

:41:57. > :42:01.at all. When we have these meetings, it is a good opportunity to discuss

:42:02. > :42:05.the reality of our plans for reform. I make clear our forthcoming bill of

:42:06. > :42:08.Rights proposal stay within the convention. I explained the abuses

:42:09. > :42:15.that we want to be rid of under the Human Rights Act. Some of the

:42:16. > :42:18.challenges we have allowed us is to look at our common-sense reforms

:42:19. > :42:19.with some of the baseless scaremongering coming from some of

:42:20. > :42:31.our critics. The UN's special rapporteur on

:42:32. > :42:36.torture has spoken about plans to replace the Human Rights Act with a

:42:37. > :42:38.Tory Bill of Rights, calling it a dangerous and pernicious and

:42:39. > :42:44.something which would set a very bad example to the rest of the world.

:42:45. > :42:49.Isn't he right? It is not right, and I can tell him that with all the

:42:50. > :42:52.discussions I have had with all the UN officials who have passed through

:42:53. > :42:56.Westminster, nobody has ever used that kind of language in front of

:42:57. > :42:59.me, and I very much doubt that they would. Since when is it the practice

:43:00. > :43:06.of foreign legal and other entities to decide the views and produce the

:43:07. > :43:10.sovereignty of this Parliament and the electoral mandate we have to

:43:11. > :43:13.bring in a British Bill of Rights? It is a tragedy that the European

:43:14. > :43:17.Convention on Human Rights, which was founded by British people, has

:43:18. > :43:21.been distorted by perverse decisions such as trying to get an axe

:43:22. > :43:25.murderer to get the vote, which we have rejected. Isn't it time we got

:43:26. > :43:28.on with our manifesto commitment to have a British Bill of Rights? My

:43:29. > :43:34.honourable friend is absolutely right. I would also point out that

:43:35. > :43:39.the last Labour government had issues with the way the Strasbourg

:43:40. > :43:42.court operated, too. They did not implement a prisoner voting. I do

:43:43. > :43:46.not remember the honourable member when he was a minister calling for

:43:47. > :43:51.it to be implemented. Nor did they implemented the Abu Qatada judgment.

:43:52. > :43:54.Can the minister confirm that human rights have been part of our law in

:43:55. > :43:58.this country under the common law for many years, and that they will

:43:59. > :44:05.continue to be so after the repeal of the Human Rights Act, perhaps in

:44:06. > :44:09.a more modern and codified way? My honourable and Learned Friend is

:44:10. > :44:13.absolutely right. He have had a huge, long tradition and pedigree of

:44:14. > :44:17.respecting human rights, dating back to Magna Carta and before. We have

:44:18. > :44:21.protected human rights in this country before the European

:44:22. > :44:24.Convention, and certainly before Labour's Human Rights Act, and we

:44:25. > :44:29.shall continue to do so in the years ahead. The minister is yet to issue

:44:30. > :44:32.his consultation on the repeal of the Human Rights Act and its

:44:33. > :44:36.replacement with a British Bill of Rights. But it is eight weeks now

:44:37. > :44:39.and to the Scottish Parliament is dissolved and it goes into Purdy,

:44:40. > :44:43.and it is the same with Northern Ireland and Wales. Can I ask him to

:44:44. > :44:49.guarantee that he will not squash out Scotland, Northern Ireland and

:44:50. > :44:52.Wales from this important call some patience by issuing his proposals

:44:53. > :45:00.before, or even worse, during the election period? Can he give that

:45:01. > :45:06.guarantee? There will be no squashing out. We are already in

:45:07. > :45:10.detailed soundings and when we come to it, there will be full

:45:11. > :45:14.consultation with all the devolved administrations. In relation to the

:45:15. > :45:20.purdah issue, we will be mindful of the Cabinet Office guidelines.

:45:21. > :45:23.Another perverse decision of the European Court of Human Rights was

:45:24. > :45:26.that on prisoner voting. Can the minister please confirm that there

:45:27. > :45:37.are absolutely no plans to change our laws on prisoner voting? I thank

:45:38. > :45:42.him for his question. As I have made clear to our partners in Strasbourg,

:45:43. > :45:45.it is for honourable members in this House to determine whether prisoners

:45:46. > :45:52.should be given the vote, and I see no prospect of that happening in the

:45:53. > :45:56.foreseeable future. When the council of Europe commission of human rights

:45:57. > :46:00.visited the United Kingdom last week, he said that the repeatedly

:46:01. > :46:04.delayed launch of the consultation of the repeal of the Human Rights

:46:05. > :46:10.Act is, and I quote, creating an app must fear of anxiety and concern in

:46:11. > :46:14.civil society and within the devolved administrations. --

:46:15. > :46:16.creating an atmosphere. Will he now tell say exactly when the

:46:17. > :46:21.consultation will be published? As she already knows, I met with the

:46:22. > :46:24.commissioner last week and we spoke about these issues. There is no

:46:25. > :46:28.cause for anxiety. We will bring forward proposals for full

:46:29. > :46:34.consultation in the near future. Those proposals are going well. She

:46:35. > :46:37.will hear more on that shortly. The commissioner also said, and I quote,

:46:38. > :46:42.my impression is that the debate over the Human Rights Act in

:46:43. > :46:46.Westminster is not a true reflection of the debate outside England. Does

:46:47. > :46:51.the minister appreciate that the impact of any attempt to repeal the

:46:52. > :46:55.Human Rights Act on the devolved administrations would be likely to

:46:56. > :46:58.provoke a constitutional crisis? I think she is absolutely right to say

:46:59. > :47:01.that within the Westminster bubble, particularly if you look at some of

:47:02. > :47:06.the scaremongering, the debate is not reflective of wider public

:47:07. > :47:10.opinion outside of this House, which is consistently in favour of a Bill

:47:11. > :47:20.of Rights to replace the Human Rights Act, including, she will

:47:21. > :47:24.note, in Scotland. I want to see fewer women in the kernel justice

:47:25. > :47:28.system. That's why in partnership with the equalities office we have

:47:29. > :47:31.made available ?200,000 of grant funding to add to the ?1 million

:47:32. > :47:36.already invested to support local pilots for female offenders. This is

:47:37. > :47:41.where multiple agencies work together and intervene earlier to

:47:42. > :47:47.help address the complexes reasons why women offend and to assist them

:47:48. > :47:53.in turning their lives around. Does she agree that more needs to be done

:47:54. > :47:56.to steer vulnerable women away from crime, and can she update the House

:47:57. > :48:02.on how that is progressing and what more is being done to tackle this

:48:03. > :48:05.issue? The system approach I have outlined in straights this

:48:06. > :48:10.commitment to divert as many women as possible from custody by

:48:11. > :48:14.addressing not only the causes of offending, which left unchecked

:48:15. > :48:18.software will spiral into potentially a prison sentence and

:48:19. > :48:21.the break down of families and children in care, which is why we

:48:22. > :48:27.will be announcing successful bids for this pilot later in the week.

:48:28. > :48:31.Thank you very much. I have had occasion in this House to offer my

:48:32. > :48:36.thanks and gratitude to Nick Arnold wick, the outgoing Chief Inspector

:48:37. > :48:38.of Prisons, and Paul iron, the outgoing chief inspector of

:48:39. > :48:41.probation. But their expertise will not be lost because I can announce

:48:42. > :48:45.today that I am appointing Nick Arnold wick is the new Chair of the

:48:46. > :48:51.parole board. He will succeed the current Chair, and I would like to

:48:52. > :48:57.put on record my thanks to Sir David for what he has done in this role.

:48:58. > :49:03.My honourable friend the Courts Minister will know that last year I

:49:04. > :49:05.wrote a report on form of service personnel in the cruel justice

:49:06. > :49:10.system, which recommended among other things, training of people in

:49:11. > :49:14.the bar and for solicitors and judges to deal with this small

:49:15. > :49:17.cohort of offenders. What steps is my honourable friend taking to make

:49:18. > :49:22.sure that court staff receive appropriate training to deal with

:49:23. > :49:27.these individuals? He makes an important point. We know that he is

:49:28. > :49:32.a distinguished veteran as well as being an outstanding... He produced

:49:33. > :49:38.an excellent report on offenders who have been in the Armed Forces. Court

:49:39. > :49:40.staff are trained to deal with the specific needs of veterans and we

:49:41. > :49:43.are aware that there are particular needs which may relate to need

:49:44. > :49:46.post-traumatic stress disorder and associated mental health concerns,

:49:47. > :50:00.which court staff need to be sensitive to. Could I commend the

:50:01. > :50:04.Secretary of State for his appointment of Nick Hardwick to the

:50:05. > :50:07.Parole Board? Exactly a year ago, my right honourable friend the member

:50:08. > :50:11.for Tooting, with his usual proceedings, said the new legal aid

:50:12. > :50:16.contracts were making pigs ear of access to justice and should be

:50:17. > :50:21.abandoned. Will the Secretary of State confirm the Pressel ports that

:50:22. > :50:26.he is about to do just that? Can I thank the honourable gentleman for

:50:27. > :50:30.his praise for temp -- for Nick Hardwick? It is precisely because

:50:31. > :50:34.Nick Hardwick has spoken without fear or favour and has been such an

:50:35. > :50:37.honest critic that I believe he is the right person to discharge this

:50:38. > :50:42.role. I am sure he will appreciate the bipartisan support. On legal aid

:50:43. > :50:46.contracts, it has been the case that we have had to reduce the spend on

:50:47. > :50:50.legal aid, in order to deal with the deficit which we inherited. But also

:50:51. > :50:56.we maintain more generously delayed in this country than in any other

:50:57. > :50:59.competent jurisdiction. Diderot at the justice select committee, the

:51:00. > :51:04.Master of the Rolls described fee increases affecting civil litigants

:51:05. > :51:09.as a desperate way of carrying on, based on hopeless research. He

:51:10. > :51:12.laughed when asked by the honourable member for chop them if there was

:51:13. > :51:15.anything in the governments. Which stood up to scrutiny. It is another

:51:16. > :51:27.car crash. Is it time for another U-turn? I can hear music from the

:51:28. > :51:29.zephyrs, words from the honourable member for Cheltenham, suggesting

:51:30. > :51:31.that were once the honourable member might be misinformed of what

:51:32. > :51:37.precisely happened in the select committee. But one thing I would say

:51:38. > :51:41.is, one of the biggest barriers to justice, as the master of the Rolls

:51:42. > :51:45.and others have pointed out, are costs. Action needs to be taken to

:51:46. > :51:49.reduce costs in civil justice. It is not enough simply to say that the

:51:50. > :51:52.taxpayer must shoulder the burden. We need reform of our legal system

:51:53. > :51:57.in order to make access to justice easier for all. I know that my right

:51:58. > :52:00.honourable friend regards access to justice as a clear priority. With

:52:01. > :52:05.this in mind and given the large area of north-east Cheshire which

:52:06. > :52:10.will be without easy access to a court under the consultation, can he

:52:11. > :52:13.tell the House what progress is being made in considering the

:52:14. > :52:19.Macclesfield proposal for a single, combined across field justice

:52:20. > :52:23.centre? May I first of all thank my honourable friend for the meeting

:52:24. > :52:26.that we had and for presenting the justice centre report which he gave

:52:27. > :52:29.to me along with his constituent. He will be aware that we are giving

:52:30. > :52:33.serious consideration to that report and indeed to the 2000-plus

:52:34. > :52:39.submissions made in that consultation regarding which we will

:52:40. > :52:44.be making our response soon. Women's aid last week published a report

:52:45. > :52:48.entitled 19 childhood asides. It tells the story of 19 children, two

:52:49. > :52:52.mothers, killed by unknown perpetrators of domestic abuse in

:52:53. > :52:56.circumstances related to the unsafe child contact. How will the

:52:57. > :52:59.department helped to make sure that no further avoidable child deaths

:53:00. > :53:01.will take place where the perpetrators of domestic abuse have

:53:02. > :53:05.been allowed contact through the family court? We take

:53:06. > :53:10.extraordinarily seriously concerns about child safety. I know that my

:53:11. > :53:13.colleague the minister who is responsible for family law has been

:53:14. > :53:16.in touch with charities who work in this area in the past. We will make

:53:17. > :53:23.sure that we pay close attention to this report. Does my right

:53:24. > :53:27.honourable friend share my anger and that of my constituent whose son was

:53:28. > :53:33.tragically killed while serving his country in Afghanistan? Law firms

:53:34. > :53:36.which are heavily involved in actions against Veterans Day and

:53:37. > :53:40.serving them as of our armed forces, and what action can the government

:53:41. > :53:44.take to close down this industry, which is causing so much unnecessary

:53:45. > :53:48.distress to our Armed Forces and their families? We share my right

:53:49. > :53:52.honourable friend's concerns. He will be aware of the prime ministers

:53:53. > :53:55.early announcement on Friday. The professionalism of our Armed Forces

:53:56. > :54:00.is second to none. But we cannot have returning troops hounded by

:54:01. > :54:03.ambulance chasing lawyers pursuing spurious claims. The Justice

:54:04. > :54:08.Secretary has asked me to Chair a working groups to look at all

:54:09. > :54:10.aspects of this, no Win no fee, leader labels, time limits and

:54:11. > :54:17.disciplinary sanctions against law firms who are found to be abusing

:54:18. > :54:22.the system, so that we prevent any malicious or parasitic litigation

:54:23. > :54:26.against our brave Armed Forces. Can the minister confirm Hamley times

:54:27. > :54:29.contract breaches at G4S establishments have occurred under

:54:30. > :54:32.the contract with his department, and what amount in fines have been

:54:33. > :54:38.incurred and by G4S in respect of those breaches? I do not have the

:54:39. > :54:45.detailed information. If she will allow me, I will write to her with

:54:46. > :54:49.details. My right honourable friend is aware of the very serious

:54:50. > :54:52.problems associated with radicalisation in our prisons. Can

:54:53. > :54:58.he update the House on what steps are being taken to tackle this? I

:54:59. > :55:03.understand my honourable friend's proper interest in this subject. As

:55:04. > :55:10.the threat evolves, we evolve our response. We are strengthening the

:55:11. > :55:13.training for new prison officers and we make sure they are able to tackle

:55:14. > :55:18.criminal activity in whatever form within prison. The Secretary of

:55:19. > :55:24.State has asked the department to review its approach to dealing with

:55:25. > :55:30.Islamist extra that's prisons and we await that report shortly. --

:55:31. > :55:36.Islamist extremism in prisons. Just two weeks ago, he said, our system

:55:37. > :55:39.of justice has just become unaffordable to most. Will the

:55:40. > :55:45.Secretary of State take heed of these comments and also, it to

:55:46. > :55:50.abolition of tribunal fees, following the SNP lead? I take very

:55:51. > :55:54.seriously everything the Lord Chief Justice says. I am delighted to be

:55:55. > :55:58.able to work with him on a programme of court reform which should make

:55:59. > :56:01.access to justice swifter, more certain and cheaper. It is important

:56:02. > :56:06.that we learn from different jurisdictions. One thing I would say

:56:07. > :56:10.is that even as we look to Scotland from time to time to see what we can

:56:11. > :56:14.learn from the development of the law there, it is also important that

:56:15. > :56:17.from time to time, those charged with what happens in Scottish courts

:56:18. > :56:21.should look at the tradition of English justice fell as a Scotsman

:56:22. > :56:27.myself I would have to acknowledge has certain better elements. Would

:56:28. > :56:31.he agree with me that improving the mental health of prisoners should be

:56:32. > :56:34.a top priority? Specifically when a prisoner is released from prison

:56:35. > :56:38.with a known mental health condition that there should be close liaison

:56:39. > :56:43.between the prison 40s, local GPs and health services, to put a care

:56:44. > :56:46.plan in place? My honourable friend is absolutely right. Let me pay

:56:47. > :56:50.tribute to his long interest and great expertise in this issue. He

:56:51. > :56:55.will probably know that local commissioning groups in England and

:56:56. > :57:00.the local health boards in Wales are responsible for services in the

:57:01. > :57:05.community. NHS health care staff in prisons are responsible there. It is

:57:06. > :57:07.their job to make sure that services provided in the prison are followed

:57:08. > :57:20.through in the community. Will he work with the Immigration

:57:21. > :57:26.Minister to make sure migrant families will be evicted without a

:57:27. > :57:32.court order is contrary to the right of law and must be urgently

:57:33. > :57:44.reconsidered? I enjoyed meeting with the Home Secretary and we must

:57:45. > :57:48.ensure that we look at our borders. Immigration across the EU is not

:57:49. > :57:53.being effectively controlled. We will take measures to keep our

:57:54. > :57:58.borders secure and I thought it would be in the interests of every

:57:59. > :58:04.citizen of the UK to take part in that fight. Further to the question,

:58:05. > :58:10.does my right honourable friend agree that people in this house will

:58:11. > :58:21.find it despicable that two firms, possibly more, are actively seeking

:58:22. > :58:24.people in Iraq to make bogus claims against our servicemen overseas?

:58:25. > :58:29.Will he rejects reports in newspapers that we still intend to

:58:30. > :58:37.give legal aid to these appalling claims? I thank the honourable

:58:38. > :58:41.gentleman. I am concerned about the way the system operates and it is

:58:42. > :58:45.important we should say that there is accountability of any wrongdoing.

:58:46. > :58:51.That doesn't mean giving lawyers a licence to harass our Armed Forces.

:58:52. > :58:54.We will be looking at every angle as well as no-win, no fee and as well

:58:55. > :59:01.as disciplinary powers against lawyers who try to abuse the system.

:59:02. > :59:04.In 2012, the department spent millions refurbishing Saint Helen 's

:59:05. > :59:08.courthouse to accommodate civil and criminal proceedings in the same

:59:09. > :59:13.building declaring it was logical. Are we to assume that four years

:59:14. > :59:16.later, considering the close of the same courthouse is illogical and

:59:17. > :59:23.inefficient or would he like to rule it out today? May I say that no

:59:24. > :59:28.final decisions have been taken and we are taking into account a whole

:59:29. > :59:31.variety of reasons and this is a consultation concerning 91 courts

:59:32. > :59:38.throughout England and Wales to make our system better and one of the

:59:39. > :59:42.best in the world. Following on from my honourable friend, what steps are

:59:43. > :59:44.being taken to ensure all prisons with mental health issues are dealt

:59:45. > :59:52.with safely, appropriately and compassionately? I am glad my

:59:53. > :59:56.honourable friend has raised this issue. And every prisoner comes into

:59:57. > :00:01.prison, they have a full health assessment. That health practitioner

:00:02. > :00:09.has the ability to refer to the prison's in reach services. We now

:00:10. > :00:12.have either learning disability or mental health nurses available at

:00:13. > :00:15.police stations and in courts so we can start that mental health

:00:16. > :00:22.treatment at the beginning of their journey in the criminal system. I

:00:23. > :00:26.had the secretary will meet with me to discuss my justice for victims of

:00:27. > :00:31.criminal driving bill. Can I point out that the consultation on this

:00:32. > :00:34.did start on the 6th of May 2000 and 14. It is a long time that we will

:00:35. > :00:44.not hear anything back until later on in this year. I am grateful for

:00:45. > :00:49.that this incident -- assistant way in which he has campaigned for this.

:00:50. > :00:53.We will be discussing the case for change as there was widespread

:00:54. > :00:57.agreement that we did need change but not what change. We will get

:00:58. > :01:02.back to him in due course. Given the rate of reoffending, would it not be

:01:03. > :01:06.better to improve rehabilitation rather than incarceration,

:01:07. > :01:09.especially in relation to shorten prison sentences? He makes a

:01:10. > :01:14.powerful point and few know more about what happens in our courts as

:01:15. > :01:18.he does. It is important that would put an emphasis on rehabilitation

:01:19. > :01:22.but it is also important that we give all our citizens the security

:01:23. > :01:25.of knowing that those people who pose a real threat to us are

:01:26. > :01:31.incapacitated behind bars and receiving the punishment that they

:01:32. > :01:35.deserve the most heinous crimes. Past week, the Public Accounts

:01:36. > :01:38.Committee heard about the infrastructure authority and he was

:01:39. > :01:42.asked what the three projects were that kept him worried and they

:01:43. > :01:48.caught's programme was one of them. Add that the list of a tagging and

:01:49. > :01:54.translation service and the concerns around probation and prisons, is the

:01:55. > :02:03.secretary of this -- Secretary of State worried that his campaign, not

:02:04. > :02:10.cope with this? I will offer him another cup of cocoa to enable him

:02:11. > :02:21.to sleep as well as I do. He has gone native in record time,

:02:22. > :02:25.including hanging off every word that the Nu T says. Will the

:02:26. > :02:33.Secretary of State get back his Mojo and put the victims of crime at the

:02:34. > :02:37.heart of what he is doing? Come back Ken Clarke, all is forgiven. I am

:02:38. > :02:43.not sure our members on the opposite benches would agree I have become a

:02:44. > :02:50.sandal wearing muesli munching Cregan vague stuff. They will say I

:02:51. > :02:53.am the same blue Tory that I always have been. It is because I am a

:02:54. > :02:57.conservative that I believe in the rule of law as the foundation of our

:02:58. > :03:05.civilisation and I believe that evil must be punished. It is also because

:03:06. > :03:10.I believe in redemption and I think the purpose of our prison system is

:03:11. > :03:21.to keep people safe by making people better. We have learned about his

:03:22. > :03:26.personal habits and religious beliefs and are better off. The

:03:27. > :03:33.Prime Minister agreed to meet with me about the baby Ashes scandal. My

:03:34. > :03:36.constituent had a helpful meeting but I wondered if the Parliamentary

:03:37. > :03:39.Secretary of State will help me to get that meeting that the Prime

:03:40. > :03:49.Minister agreed to and if I could list her support? We are clear about

:03:50. > :03:52.what happened and it should never happened again, which is why the

:03:53. > :03:55.honourable lady will know we have launched our consultation in

:03:56. > :03:58.December which will conclude in March and stop I will be happy to

:03:59. > :04:04.make that representation on her behalf. The honourable gentleman

:04:05. > :04:14.hasn't had a question and I would like to have one. The Minister will

:04:15. > :04:21.be aware of the closure of Torbay Magistrates' Court. Willie helped

:04:22. > :04:25.keep justice local in the Bay? I hear the message that my honourable

:04:26. > :04:30.friend is saying and we have met and corresponded and I am giving serious

:04:31. > :04:34.consideration to all that is being put forward. Urgent question, Heidi

:04:35. > :04:46.Alexander. To ask the Secretary of State for

:04:47. > :04:50.Health if he will make a statement on NHS England's report into the

:04:51. > :05:01.death of William Mead and the failures of the 111 how -- helpline.

:05:02. > :05:05.This tragic case concerns the death of a one-year-old boy, William Mead,

:05:06. > :05:10.on the 14th of December 2014 in Cornwall. Whilst any health system

:05:11. > :05:14.will inevitably suffer some tragedies, the issues raised in this

:05:15. > :05:18.case have significant implications for the rest of the NHS which I am

:05:19. > :05:22.determined we should learn from. I would like to offer my sincere

:05:23. > :05:28.condolences to the family of William Mead. I have met William's mother

:05:29. > :05:34.who spoke movingly about the loss of her son. Quite simply, we let her,

:05:35. > :05:39.her family and William down in the worst possible way through serious

:05:40. > :05:43.failings in the NHS care offered. I would like to apologise to them on

:05:44. > :05:49.behalf of the Government and the NHS for what happened. I would like to

:05:50. > :05:54.thank them for their support and cooperation in the investigation

:05:55. > :05:58.that has now been completed. Today, NHS England published the results of

:05:59. > :06:01.that investigation, a root cause analysis of what happened. The

:06:02. > :06:05.recommendations are far reaching, with natural -- national

:06:06. > :06:09.implications. The report concludes there were four areas of missed

:06:10. > :06:15.opportunity by the local health services when a different course of

:06:16. > :06:18.action should have been taken. These include primary care and general

:06:19. > :06:25.practice appointments by William's family come out of hours calls with

:06:26. > :06:29.their GP and the NHS 111 service. Though the report concluded these

:06:30. > :06:34.did not constitute direct serious failings by the individuals

:06:35. > :06:38.involved, had different action been taken at these points, William would

:06:39. > :06:44.probably have survived. Across these different parts of the NHS, a major

:06:45. > :06:50.failing was that in the last six to eight weeks of William's life, the

:06:51. > :06:55.underlying pathology including pneumonia and chest infection were

:06:56. > :07:01.not probably recognised and treated. The report cites potential factors

:07:02. > :07:06.such as a lack of understanding of sepsis, particularly in children,

:07:07. > :07:09.pressure on GPs to reduce antibiotic prescribing and Acute Hospital

:07:10. > :07:13.referrals and although this wasn't raised by the GPs involved, the

:07:14. > :07:20.report refers to the potential pressure of work load. There were

:07:21. > :07:26.specific recommendations in relation to NHS 111 we should be treated as a

:07:27. > :07:30.national not a local issue. Call advisers are trained not to deviate

:07:31. > :07:33.from their script but the report says they need to be trained to

:07:34. > :07:39.appreciate when there is a need to probe further, how to recognise

:07:40. > :07:45.complex calls and when to call in clinical advice earlier. It cites

:07:46. > :07:52.limited sensitivity in the algorithms used by call handlers to

:07:53. > :07:55.red flag signs relating to sepsis. The Government and NHS England

:07:56. > :07:59.access these recommendations which will be implemented as soon as

:08:00. > :08:05.possible. New commissioning standards issued in October 20 15th

:08:06. > :08:10.require commissioners to create more functionally integrated 111 and GP

:08:11. > :08:16.out-of-hours services and sub Bruce's care of you will simplify

:08:17. > :08:22.the way the Government interacts with the NHS for urgent care needs.

:08:23. > :08:28.We must recognise that our understanding of sepsis across the

:08:29. > :08:33.NHS is totally inadequate. This condition claims 35,000 lives every

:08:34. > :08:36.year, including around 1000 children. I would like to add

:08:37. > :08:40.knowledge and thank my honourable friend the member for Truro and

:08:41. > :08:45.Falmouth who as well as being constituency MP to the Mead family,

:08:46. > :08:51.has worked tirelessly to raise awareness of sepsis and work closely

:08:52. > :08:54.with the UK's sepsis trust to reduce the number of avoidable deaths from

:08:55. > :09:00.sepsis. In January last year, I announced a package of measures to

:09:01. > :09:05.help improve diagnosis of sepsis in both hospitals and GP services and

:09:06. > :09:09.significant efforts are being made to improve awareness of the

:09:10. > :09:13.condition amongst doctors and the public. The tragic death of William

:09:14. > :09:24.Mead reminds us there is much more to be done. Anyone who watched the

:09:25. > :09:29.courageous interviews Melissa Mead gave this morning could not fail to

:09:30. > :09:33.be moved by this tragic case. I pay tribute to Melissa and her husband,

:09:34. > :09:37.Paul, who have fought to know the truth about their son's death and

:09:38. > :09:43.who are now campaigning to raise awareness and improve care of

:09:44. > :09:48.sepsis. It is right that we express our sorrow at what has happened and

:09:49. > :09:53.the Health Secretary was right to apologise on behalf of the NHS. The

:09:54. > :09:58.key now is to ensure the right lessons are learned and that action

:09:59. > :10:03.is taken. As the Secretary of State noted, the report found a catalogue

:10:04. > :10:06.of failures that contributed to William's death, including four

:10:07. > :10:11.missed opportunities where a different course of action should

:10:12. > :10:16.have been taken. I want to press the Health Secretary on these areas.

:10:17. > :10:23.Firstly, the report said that William saw GPs six times in the

:10:24. > :10:26.months leading up to his death but none spotted the seriousness of the

:10:27. > :10:33.chest infection that cost him his life. Ministers were warned about

:10:34. > :10:37.poor sepsis care back in September 2013 when an ombudsman report

:10:38. > :10:41.highlighted and I quote, shortcomings in a initial assessment

:10:42. > :10:46.and delay in emergency treatment which led to missed opportunities to

:10:47. > :10:53.save lives. Can Health Secretary say what action was taken following that

:10:54. > :10:59.report? Why was it only in December 2015, over two years later, that NHS

:11:00. > :11:04.England finally published an action plan to help support NHS staff

:11:05. > :11:11.recognise and treat sepsis? Second, the report found that the NHS 111

:11:12. > :11:14.helpline failed to respond adequately to Melissa's Corp. The

:11:15. > :11:19.report concluded that if it had been a doctor or nurse taking her call,

:11:20. > :11:25.they would have probably seen the need for urgent action. The

:11:26. > :11:29.replacement of NHS Direct which was predominantly a nurse led service

:11:30. > :11:35.with NHS 111, means the service relies on call handlers who receive

:11:36. > :11:43.as little as six weeks training. When would the Health Secretary

:11:44. > :11:47.Daschle Wenallt... When he increased the number of clinically trained

:11:48. > :11:53.staff available to respond to calls? The report says that the computer

:11:54. > :11:58.programme call handlers are using did not cover some of the symptoms

:11:59. > :12:02.of sepsis including a drop in body temperature from very high to low.

:12:03. > :12:07.Does the Health Secretary have confidence that the 111 service is

:12:08. > :12:13.fit to diagnose patients with complex life-threatening problems,

:12:14. > :12:14.you may not always fit the computer algorithm call handlers have to rely

:12:15. > :12:27.on. Finally, can I ask the Secretary of

:12:28. > :12:31.State what he is doing to raise awareness of the symptoms of sepsis?

:12:32. > :12:35.I know that this is an issue Melissa and Paul feel particularly strongly

:12:36. > :12:40.about. And we owe it to them to implement the recommendations of the

:12:41. > :12:44.NHS England report and do all we can to ensure the failures in this

:12:45. > :12:55.tragic case are never, ever repeated again. I hope I can reassure the

:12:56. > :12:58.Shadow Health Secretary on all the points she raised. First of all,

:12:59. > :13:04.there has been a sustained effort across the NHS since September 2013

:13:05. > :13:10.to improve the standard of safety in the care that we offer in our

:13:11. > :13:15.hospitals. An entirely new inspection system was set up that

:13:16. > :13:19.year. That is now nearly completed. Inspections of every hospital have

:13:20. > :13:22.caused a sea change in attitudes towards patient safety. And sepsis

:13:23. > :13:29.is one of the areas which is looked at. In particular it is incredibly

:13:30. > :13:32.potent when signs of sepsis are identified in A departments, that

:13:33. > :13:36.the right antibiotic treatment is started within six to minutes. That

:13:37. > :13:40.is not happening everywhere. We need to raise awareness urgent leader

:13:41. > :13:46.make that happen. But inspection regime is helping to focus minds on

:13:47. > :13:51.that. I agree with her, there are some very important issues on 111,

:13:52. > :13:57.and I will come to those. A year ago I announced an important package to

:13:58. > :14:02.raise awareness of sepsis. It covers the different parts of the NHS. ,

:14:03. > :14:07.for example, in hospitals, spotting it quickly. There was a big package

:14:08. > :14:13.which was being followed in December of last year, December the 15th,

:14:14. > :14:16.with NHS England publishing the sepsis programme board report, which

:14:17. > :14:21.looks at how to improve identification of sepsis across the

:14:22. > :14:26.pathway. She is right to raise the issue of faster identification by GP

:14:27. > :14:30.is. That's why last January I announced that we would be

:14:31. > :14:35.developing an audit tool for GPs. Because it is difficult to identify

:14:36. > :14:40.sepsis, even for trained clinicians. And we need to give GPs the help and

:14:41. > :14:43.support that they need to do that. We are also talking to public of

:14:44. > :14:48.England about a public awareness campaign. It is not just clinicians

:14:49. > :14:51.in the NHS, it is also a member is of the public and parents of young

:14:52. > :14:58.children who need to be aware of some of those tell-tale signs. So

:14:59. > :15:02.there is a lot happening. But because the root cause of the issue

:15:03. > :15:08.is understanding by clinicians on the front line of this horrible

:15:09. > :15:12.disease, it does take some time to develop that greater understanding

:15:13. > :15:16.that everybody accepts that we need. But I can reassure her that there is

:15:17. > :15:20.a total focus in the NHS now on reducing the number of avoidable

:15:21. > :15:24.deaths from sepsis and other causes. This is something which the NHS and

:15:25. > :15:30.everyone who works in it is totally committed to. With respect to 111, I

:15:31. > :15:35.think there are some things that we can do quickly which we must do in

:15:36. > :15:40.response to this report. But I think there is a more fundamental change

:15:41. > :15:43.which we need in 111 as well. The thing we can do quickly is to look

:15:44. > :15:46.at the algorithms which are used by the call handlers to make sure that

:15:47. > :15:51.they are sensitive to those red flag signs of sepsis. this is a very,

:15:52. > :16:01.very important thing which needs to happen. NHS 111 has in some ways

:16:02. > :16:06.Bina victim of its own success. It is taking 12 million calls a year,

:16:07. > :16:10.as opposed to 4 million which were being taken by NHS Direct just three

:16:11. > :16:15.years ago. Nearly nine out of ten of those calls are being answered

:16:16. > :16:18.within 60 seconds. But when it comes to the identification of diseases

:16:19. > :16:21.like sepsis, we need to do better. We need urgently to look at the

:16:22. > :16:30.algorithm followed by the call handlers. But fundamentally, when

:16:31. > :16:33.you look at the totality of what the family of William Mead suffered,

:16:34. > :16:36.there is a confusion in the mind of the public which the NHS needs to

:16:37. > :16:42.address about what exactly you do when you have an urgent care need.

:16:43. > :16:45.When you have a child with a high temperature, you do not know whether

:16:46. > :16:50.you should just give them some kelp or whether it is something which

:16:51. > :16:53.needs serious clinical attention. The issue is that there are too many

:16:54. > :16:59.choices and often you cannot get through quickly to the help you

:17:00. > :17:03.need. We need to improve the simpler city of the system so that when you

:17:04. > :17:08.get through to anyone want one, you are not asked about Russia

:17:09. > :17:11.questions, some of which seem quite meaningless, which gets to the point

:17:12. > :17:15.more quickly, you are referred to clinical care more quickly, and that

:17:16. > :17:19.we sympathise the options so that people know what to do. That is

:17:20. > :17:24.happening as part of the urgent and emergency care review. It is a big

:17:25. > :17:29.priority. This tragic case will make us accelerate that process even

:17:30. > :17:33.faster. I would like to join colleagues from across the House in

:17:34. > :17:37.sending deepest condolences to William Mead's parents. I welcome

:17:38. > :17:40.Secretary of State solely responsible he will put into action

:17:41. > :17:45.the recommendation from the report. Can I draw out one aspect which has

:17:46. > :17:50.not been touched on, which is the comment that out of our services did

:17:51. > :17:53.not have access to William Sery clinical records, and have they been

:17:54. > :17:58.able to do so, would have seen how many times he had consulted, and

:17:59. > :18:02.that would have been a clear red flag. Can he reassure me that this

:18:03. > :18:06.will be addressed across the NHS so that all services have access to

:18:07. > :18:11.patients's clinical records, of course with their consent? She is

:18:12. > :18:15.absolutely right. There is so much in this report and it is important

:18:16. > :18:18.we do not let some very important recommendations slipped under the

:18:19. > :18:23.carpet and that is one of them. We have a commitment to a ablest NHS,

:18:24. > :18:26.which as part of that commitment will involve the proper sharing of

:18:27. > :18:34.electronic records across the system. We have also instructed CCGs

:18:35. > :18:37.to integrate the commissioning of out of hours care with the

:18:38. > :18:42.commissioning of their 111 services to further make sure that those are

:18:43. > :18:46.joined up. It is a big IT project. We are making progress. Two thirds

:18:47. > :18:53.of A departments can now access GP records. She is right, that is a

:18:54. > :18:57.priority. As others have said, I would also like to add my

:18:58. > :19:01.condolences for the family. It is hard to imagine anything worse for a

:19:02. > :19:06.family to face. Like many deaths in the NHS, it is always sad to look

:19:07. > :19:10.back and see that it was a catalogue of missed opportunities or errors.

:19:11. > :19:14.One of the things I would like to pick up is, young children are very

:19:15. > :19:18.hard to assess. They are quite hard to assess when you are seeing them.

:19:19. > :19:23.They can be running around and then keel over half in a later. I think

:19:24. > :19:28.they are particularly hard to pick up clues on the phone. When the NHS

:19:29. > :19:31.Direct services throughout the UK were started, they were based in

:19:32. > :19:36.local out of hours GP centres, which meant the nurse could just pass the

:19:37. > :19:41.phone and say, can you come and chat? I am not sure. We have rules

:19:42. > :19:44.in our local one that if it was a young child, they actually got a

:19:45. > :19:49.visit from the mobile car. I would hope that the Secretary of State

:19:50. > :19:54.might undertake that in this review, instead of it all being put in call

:19:55. > :19:58.centres, there might actually be a dissemination back to a local system

:19:59. > :20:05.so that these cases can be accelerated easily to a clinician. I

:20:06. > :20:09.agree with the broad thrust of what she says. Of course she speaks with

:20:10. > :20:14.the authority of an experienced clinician herself. In this case, the

:20:15. > :20:23.tragedy was that there was actually a doctor who spoke to the Mead

:20:24. > :20:26.family on the night before William died, and the doctor did not spot

:20:27. > :20:30.those symptoms. So it is not simply a question of access to the doctor,

:20:31. > :20:35.it is making sure the doctors have the training necessary. It is very

:20:36. > :20:38.difficult. The doctor's view on that occasion was that because the child

:20:39. > :20:42.was sleeping peacefully, it was fine to leave it until morning, when it

:20:43. > :20:46.was tragically too late. That is a mistake I am sure other doctors

:20:47. > :20:52.would say could be made easily by anyone. I think the report is right

:20:53. > :20:56.to say it is not about individual blame, it is about a better

:20:57. > :21:03.understanding of the risks of sepsis. I think she is right to say

:21:04. > :21:06.that in the 11 service -- in the 111 service, which, because it is an

:21:07. > :21:10.easy number to remember, and because we are trying to join up the

:21:11. > :21:14.services, the principle of having one number that you dial, when it is

:21:15. > :21:18.not life-threatening, and it is not a routine GP appointment, is a good

:21:19. > :21:22.one. We support that. But we need to make sure there is faster access to

:21:23. > :21:26.clinicians, and that those clinicians can see people's medical

:21:27. > :21:35.records so that they can make a proper assessment. Mr Speaker, as

:21:36. > :21:44.Chair of the APPG on sepsis, can I also pay tribute to the Mead family

:21:45. > :21:47.move now campaigning to make sure that no other child suffers in the

:21:48. > :21:51.same way that William did. I know that the Secretary of State is

:21:52. > :21:54.taking a great deal of interest in the work the trust has been doing

:21:55. > :21:59.with the APPG. He will know that we are pressing for a campaign similar

:22:00. > :22:04.to the stroke campaign, so that early diagnosis can save lives. Will

:22:05. > :22:07.the Secretary of State now consider very seriously funding a campaign

:22:08. > :22:12.such as the Fast campaign for sepsis, because there are thousands

:22:13. > :22:16.of preventable deaths which could now be brought about by some simple

:22:17. > :22:27.funding of a campaign so that everyone is aware of the signs of

:22:28. > :22:30.sepsis? I am very happy to undertake that my colleague, the public Health

:22:31. > :22:36.Minister, will look urgently into whether such a campaign would be the

:22:37. > :22:39.right thing to do. I can reassure her that the package that we put

:22:40. > :22:45.together and which I announced last January did contain what I think

:22:46. > :22:48.most people felt was necessary. But we can always look at whether there

:22:49. > :22:56.is more that needs to be done. I want to commend her for her

:22:57. > :23:00.campaigning on the issue of sepsis. The one more positive note I would

:23:01. > :23:07.say is that in the NHS, when we have decided to tackle things like MRSA

:23:08. > :23:12.and C difficile in the past, we have actually been very successful. In

:23:13. > :23:16.the last three years, the number of avoidable deaths from

:23:17. > :23:21.hospital-acquired harm, the four major ones, has nearly halved. So we

:23:22. > :23:27.can do this and I think we should be inspired by the successes we have

:23:28. > :23:31.had. One of the reasons that the number of calls to anyone want one

:23:32. > :23:34.has troubled of course is that people find it impossible to get to

:23:35. > :23:39.see their GP. But as well as the shocking failings of this family's

:23:40. > :23:43.GP is in this case, is it not the case that the government was warned

:23:44. > :23:48.when it abolished the popular and successful NHS Direct of the

:23:49. > :23:51.consequences of that action, of replacing it with a non-clinician

:23:52. > :23:55.led service? And would the Secretary of State look personally at the

:23:56. > :23:59.performance of 111 in the south-west, which has been

:24:00. > :24:05.bedevilled by failings ever since it was set up? I would just gently say

:24:06. > :24:10.to the right honourable gentleman that when 111 was set up, it was

:24:11. > :24:12.done with the support of the opposition. The Shadow Health

:24:13. > :24:18.Secretary at the time actually looked at the risk register. And the

:24:19. > :24:21.number of calls have increased grammatically partly because demand

:24:22. > :24:25.for NHS services has increased dramatically. But that does not mean

:24:26. > :24:29.to say there are not important things which need to be improved. I

:24:30. > :24:33.think we need to look honestly at what went wrong. 111 was one of the

:24:34. > :24:39.four areas where we should have done better. I am happy to look carefully

:24:40. > :24:42.at what is happening with 111 in the south-west of one thing we are

:24:43. > :24:47.improving with one want one is, in many areas, we are integrating the

:24:48. > :24:51.commissioning of 111 with the bill and service. That is actually

:24:52. > :24:54.something which happens in the south-west and I think on the whole

:24:55. > :25:00.it has been positive. But I am happy to look at the problems which I know

:25:01. > :25:03.have occurred in the south-west. Can I associate myself with the

:25:04. > :25:06.condolences which have been paid to the Mead family? Given the

:25:07. > :25:09.seriousness of this case, what more can Secretary of State do to

:25:10. > :25:19.reassure us about the clinical and expert oversight of the service and

:25:20. > :25:24.its methods? All 111 services have clinicians present at call centres.

:25:25. > :25:27.It is not about the availability of clinicians, it is about the speed

:25:28. > :25:31.with which they are involved in cases where they can make the

:25:32. > :25:34.difference. It is also about the training of those clinicians so that

:25:35. > :25:40.they can recognise horrible infections like sepsis quickly. So

:25:41. > :25:47.it is a combination of things. I think the important opportunity here

:25:48. > :25:49.is that if we are to give the public confidence in a simpler system,

:25:50. > :25:54.where they have a single point of contact, albeit a phone line or a

:25:55. > :25:57.website, then they need to be confident that if they are not

:25:58. > :26:00.immediately speaking to someone clinically trained, they will be put

:26:01. > :26:04.through to someone clinically trained if it is necessary. We have

:26:05. > :26:12.not earned that confidence yet which is why it is so important to learn

:26:13. > :26:17.lessons from this tragic case. I was the minister who set up NHS Direct.

:26:18. > :26:21.One of the first cases where we had to review it was a case of

:26:22. > :26:23.meningitis. Can I therefore say to the Secretary of State that just

:26:24. > :26:28.looking at algorithms with call handlers will not be sufficient? It

:26:29. > :26:35.is clinically exceptionally difficult and his review is too

:26:36. > :26:38.limited to address the problem. I understand what she is saying. Of

:26:39. > :26:43.course I would listen to her because of her experience. But that is not

:26:44. > :26:47.just what we are doing. We are doing lots of other things. There are many

:26:48. > :26:51.recommendations in this report. One of them is to look at the algorithms

:26:52. > :26:55.that the call handlers use to make sure that they are more sensitive to

:26:56. > :27:00.some of the red flag signs of sepsis and meningitis and other conditions.

:27:01. > :27:03.But there are lots of other things, including earlier access to

:27:04. > :27:10.clinicians, including the training of those clinicians, including the

:27:11. > :27:15.out of hours service, the training of GPs and people in hospitals. So

:27:16. > :27:16.there is a much bigger body of work which we will be undertaking as a

:27:17. > :27:34.result of this review. Can I welcome him in the out of

:27:35. > :27:39.hours service continuation? Could ease their word about what he's

:27:40. > :27:44.doing to recruit, obtain and support GPs in providing round-the-clock air

:27:45. > :27:51.that people clearly need? I have said before at this dispatch box, I

:27:52. > :27:55.think successive governments have underinvested in general practices,

:27:56. > :27:59.one of the reasons why it takes to long for many people to get a GP

:28:00. > :28:03.appointment. That is why we have said we want around 5000 more

:28:04. > :28:08.doctors working in general practice by the end of the parliament. On the

:28:09. > :28:14.other side, it is improving our offer to the public. When you have a

:28:15. > :28:18.child with a temperature are fever, and you are not sure, it is the

:28:19. > :28:23.weekend. Very often we offer the public a choice between an out of

:28:24. > :28:29.hours GP appointment, a weekend appointment with your GP's surgery,

:28:30. > :28:34.111, all showing up at accident and emergency. If we have to improve

:28:35. > :28:40.standards of care, we need to standardise safety standards across

:28:41. > :28:51.the NHS, including standards for spotting attentional sepsis cases.

:28:52. > :28:58.The shadow secretary of health commented about concerns of

:28:59. > :29:06.effectiveness for call handlers of the 111 service. How many cases from

:29:07. > :29:13.111 have been misdiagnosed? We don't know. But we believe, in terms of

:29:14. > :29:18.the independent case notes analysis that has been done across the NHS,

:29:19. > :29:23.not just sepsis, but hospital deaths, we think there are 200

:29:24. > :29:28.avoidable deaths each week. That is something we share with other health

:29:29. > :29:34.systems, not just an NHS for Norman. That is why we are asking hospitals

:29:35. > :29:36.to publish what they estimate their avoidable deaths are, and we are

:29:37. > :29:42.having in international summit next month. When it comes to sepsis, we

:29:43. > :29:46.think there are 12,000 avoidable deaths each year. That is a

:29:47. > :29:52.combination of different parts of the NHS, GP, hospital, or 111 not

:29:53. > :30:01.spotting those signs earlier. That is what we are determined to put

:30:02. > :30:05.right. Looking across the NHS, at how we insured learning and

:30:06. > :30:11.behaviour change, can the Secretary of State update the House about how

:30:12. > :30:16.the payment system is altering, and we are ensuring better outcomes and

:30:17. > :30:21.diagnosis? We are doing that as far as hospitals are concerned. I should

:30:22. > :30:25.clarify, when I took about 200 avoidable deaths, that is hospital

:30:26. > :30:30.deaths. Not in relation to the 111 service. Much harder to quantify

:30:31. > :30:35.avoidable deaths in the out-of-hospital scenarios. We are

:30:36. > :30:42.determined to do that, going further and faster than any other country I

:30:43. > :30:46.am aware of, as part of our commitment to make the NHS the Sega

:30:47. > :30:51.system in the world. In his answer he said this report is far reaching

:30:52. > :30:55.with national implications. It should have been a statement, not an

:30:56. > :31:01.urgent question. Can I just ask him, he did not answer the question on

:31:02. > :31:06.the number of misdiagnosis only 111 system. He needs to give us more

:31:07. > :31:14.detail how many misdiagnosis there are. There are reports that there

:31:15. > :31:20.are other deaths of young children associated with these deaths. Can he

:31:21. > :31:23.give any formation on that? What I would say to the honourable

:31:24. > :31:26.gentleman, I did think anyone could have done more than this and has

:31:27. > :31:32.done to tackle the issue of avoidable deaths across the NHS. It

:31:33. > :31:37.is much harder to identify when a death is unavoidable when it happens

:31:38. > :31:42.in and out of hospital scenario. As part of our work in reducing

:31:43. > :31:47.avoidable deaths after mid Staffordshire, we are looking at

:31:48. > :31:50.primary care generally. Our first priority is to reduce the avoidable

:31:51. > :31:54.deaths in hospital, making sure we can learn from reports like this,

:31:55. > :32:02.when they point to improvements that need to be made in the 111 service.

:32:03. > :32:08.I join in with the condolences expressed in the House. By way of

:32:09. > :32:12.tribute to the family and their campaign to raise awareness of

:32:13. > :32:17.sepsis, and the Simpsons, I wonder if each and every parent can take

:32:18. > :32:23.the small and practical step to day, to Google the symptoms of sepsis, so

:32:24. > :32:28.we know when things are not right with our children, and we are better

:32:29. > :32:43.armed to tackle doctors when we're not getting the answers we need? I

:32:44. > :32:48.did exactly that this morning after hearing Mrs Mead's statement on the

:32:49. > :32:51.radio. Can I thank her for that important intervention. If we're

:32:52. > :32:58.going to with these 1000 tragic sepsis deaths in children each year,

:32:59. > :33:04.it needs involvement from all of us, not the NHS. I will look at what

:33:05. > :33:08.Public Health England are doing to raise awareness. The public Health

:33:09. > :33:13.Minister is looking at what health visitors can do to boost awareness

:33:14. > :33:18.of sepsis. We'll have a responsibility to understand the

:33:19. > :33:25.better. Last November, I contacted the minister because of south-east

:33:26. > :33:29.coast ambulance 111 service carried out a trial, but three poor

:33:30. > :33:37.governance it failed, putting patients at risk. It turned out his

:33:38. > :33:40.department only heard about this after my contact. As part of the

:33:41. > :33:44.statement, is it true that the garment is becoming reactive, and is

:33:45. > :33:52.not proactive enough to tackle these before they become statement in the

:33:53. > :33:58.House? Not at all, I would urge members in the house opposite not to

:33:59. > :34:03.try and make political capital when tragedies like this happen. In the

:34:04. > :34:06.wake of the Francis Report into mid Staffordshire, we have done more

:34:07. > :34:12.than any government has ever done to tackle the issue of how we improve

:34:13. > :34:19.the safety of care in the NHS. We know that if you take the four most

:34:20. > :34:23.common harms, you're in every tract infections, pressure ulcers, and

:34:24. > :34:28.falls, the number of these has fallen by 45% in the last three-year

:34:29. > :34:35.is. -- you're in every tract infections. We are never taken

:34:36. > :34:43.placement, that is why we are taking so seriously the report issued

:34:44. > :34:50.today. This is a tragic case. Our thoughts are today with the Mead

:34:51. > :34:56.family. Looking to describe antibiotics payday key part in this

:34:57. > :35:00.tragedy. Does the Secretary of State agree this is a significant global

:35:01. > :35:04.problem, and we need to commit significant investment to get? I'm

:35:05. > :35:08.very grateful to my honourable friend for raising the issue, which

:35:09. > :35:14.has not been raised so far this afternoon. He is absolutely right,

:35:15. > :35:20.we have a pressing global need to reduce the prescribing of

:35:21. > :35:24.inappropriate antibiotics. That is why the training of clinicians is so

:35:25. > :35:29.important. In the case of sepsis, not only is the prescribing of

:35:30. > :35:36.antibiotics appropriate, but it is essential to do it quickly. We

:35:37. > :35:39.absolutely need to make sure, as we trained GPs, to reduce the

:35:40. > :35:42.prescribing of antibiotics, we don't develop the resistance to

:35:43. > :35:47.antibiotics which would be so disastrous for global health. That

:35:48. > :35:55.they don't avoid doing that in cases where it is absolutely essential.

:35:56. > :35:59.The Health Secretary said the NHS 111 was a victim of its own success.

:36:00. > :36:03.Can I agree with my right honourable friend for Exeter, it is so

:36:04. > :36:10.difficult to see a doctor, just as on the 2nd of January, the Daily

:36:11. > :36:16.Mail was reporting that the Royal Infirmary with telling people not to

:36:17. > :36:21.come to accident and emergency, but use 111. Cases like this have

:36:22. > :36:27.national implications, with the secretary agree that there need to

:36:28. > :36:33.be more clinicians at NHS 111? I do agree with her that we need more

:36:34. > :36:38.clinicians and primary health care and we need to increase provisions

:36:39. > :36:46.and secondary health care. She has a new accident and emergency system

:36:47. > :36:51.opening in Hull. But we need more clinicians and primary care to deal

:36:52. > :36:55.with these issues more quickly, to deal with issues like sepsis. That

:36:56. > :37:00.is why the garment is investing ?10 million more in the NHS on an annual

:37:01. > :37:09.basis in real terms in order to step up the improvement in the services

:37:10. > :37:15.we offer. Will he put a higher proportion of clinicians in 111? We

:37:16. > :37:21.will certainly look at whether we need to have more clinicians in 111.

:37:22. > :37:26.We do have them available. My own view is it is the separation of the

:37:27. > :37:29.out-of-hours services and the 111 service which is the heart of the

:37:30. > :37:32.problem we are looking to deal with there. As part of the review we will

:37:33. > :37:41.look at the availability of clinicians in 111. I too would like

:37:42. > :37:45.to add my condolences to the Mead family. I can only imagine after

:37:46. > :37:48.being told not to worry and this was nothing serious, this was a

:37:49. > :37:52.catalogue of failures, not just 111. catalogue of failures, not just 111.

:37:53. > :37:57.Is there consideration of the decision by GPs not to take

:37:58. > :38:04.William's heart rate, that should not have happened. And reluctance

:38:05. > :38:09.not to refer young patients to the clinic centre. If that is the case,

:38:10. > :38:14.the behaviour needs to be changed? We are looking at all these things,

:38:15. > :38:20.I can assure you. As with the issue of the prescribing antibiotics,

:38:21. > :38:23.raised by my honourable friend, we want GPs to avoid inappropriate

:38:24. > :38:29.referrals to secondary care, but it is absolutely vital that when a

:38:30. > :38:34.referral is needed, it happens. We see this not just in cases of

:38:35. > :38:37.sepsis, but cancer, vital it is caught earlier, if were going to

:38:38. > :38:45.have successful outcomes of the treatment. He is absolutely right,

:38:46. > :38:48.it will be looked at. I commend the Shadow Secretary of State for

:38:49. > :38:53.securing this urgent question. Earlier the Secretary of State said

:38:54. > :38:56.he felt that the public have confidence in 111, because of the

:38:57. > :39:02.pie call volumes, and they have increased. I don't think that is the

:39:03. > :39:07.case. Confidence in 111 is shaky at best. This case could well shatter

:39:08. > :39:14.that confidence even further. Unlike the confidence we felt when we had

:39:15. > :39:21.NHS Direct. What is he going to do to make sure that, as well as

:39:22. > :39:25.listening to people, he will involve patients in determining what they

:39:26. > :39:29.need in 111, to give back the confidence, which we need to have

:39:30. > :39:37.two avoid the pressure on the rest of the service? She is right, the

:39:38. > :39:42.importance of involving patients when we have these tragedies. I did

:39:43. > :39:49.say in my response to the urgent question, how grateful I was to the

:39:50. > :39:53.Mead family in their cooperation. One of the things the report talks

:39:54. > :39:56.about is early involvement, and listening to parents and families in

:39:57. > :40:02.these kind of situations, that has been important. I would caution for

:40:03. > :40:08.about dismissing the service offered by 111 in a blanket way. There are

:40:09. > :40:12.lots of people, clinicians, call handlers, who worked extremely hard,

:40:13. > :40:18.dealing with about 1 million calls a month. The vast majority of those

:40:19. > :40:21.cases have satisfactory outcomes. Does that mean there are not

:40:22. > :40:26.significant improvements that we need to make to the service? No, it

:40:27. > :40:30.does not, and we must do things better and learn the lessons from

:40:31. > :40:36.this report. My thoughts are also with the Mead family today. The

:40:37. > :40:39.diagnosis of conditions, including sepsis, must be carried out with

:40:40. > :40:48.those with the highest level of clinical skills. Can the 111 system

:40:49. > :40:57.be put back into the hands of highly trained clinicians? Those trained to

:40:58. > :41:00.diagnose, instead of non-staff? Mr Speaker, I think that is a

:41:01. > :41:04.misrepresentation of what happens with 111, because there are

:41:05. > :41:08.clinicians in every call centre. There are not physically enough

:41:09. > :41:15.doctors and nurses to have them answering every single call, and the

:41:16. > :41:19.device from the clinicians in the NHS responsible for the 111 service

:41:20. > :41:23.is that it would not be appropriate. What matters, if you are doing the

:41:24. > :41:27.triage you talk about, when a clinician needs to be involved, they

:41:28. > :41:31.involve more quickly than happened in the current case. That is the

:41:32. > :41:43.lesson this government is determined to learn. Point of order. Thank you

:41:44. > :41:46.very much, I was alarmed during questions, to see the honourable

:41:47. > :41:52.member for Cheltenham, dissenting from a quote I prescribed in the

:41:53. > :41:56.Justice select committee. I understand why, the quote was

:41:57. > :42:01.correct, but it was a different honourable member. Having known the

:42:02. > :42:07.honourable member for Cheltenham, I'm anxious to correct the error,

:42:08. > :42:09.noting it shows that his independence of thought, that I

:42:10. > :42:16.couldn't credited him with the question, and his magnanimity that

:42:17. > :42:21.he trusted me to set the record straight. It is very good to know

:42:22. > :42:22.that the honourable gentleman has been gracious, and he has been

:42:23. > :42:43.willing to admit to error. I would be grateful for your advice

:42:44. > :42:47.on how we can determine the governments policy on a sensitive

:42:48. > :42:50.issue. Following the flooding, I wrote to the Prime Minister asking

:42:51. > :42:55.him to apply for funding from a European fund. Applications for this

:42:56. > :43:00.fund must be made within 12 weeks of the flooding taking place. I also

:43:01. > :43:05.wrote to the Foreign Commonwealth Office asking if they would make it

:43:06. > :43:09.their policy to apply for funding. The Foreign Office replied they

:43:10. > :43:15.would not be able to apply in time. On the 20th of January I received an

:43:16. > :43:19.answer from the FCO, telling me it was not their responsibility. More

:43:20. > :43:27.than a month to tell me it was not their responsibility. On the same

:43:28. > :43:31.day I received a letter from DEFRA, so why would the Prime Minister

:43:32. > :43:35.transfer my correspondence to a department which does not have

:43:36. > :43:40.responsibility for the matter? Since my ritual correspondence, six weeks

:43:41. > :43:43.have passed, and many of my constituents are again flooding

:43:44. > :43:48.today. We are coming closer and closer to the deadline. It might

:43:49. > :43:54.even appear that the government was trying to delay until it became too

:43:55. > :43:58.late to apply for assistance. But how can a member of this House apply

:43:59. > :44:03.for government policy if the government will not tell us what it

:44:04. > :44:05.is, or if they do not have one? I think the honourable gentleman for

:44:06. > :44:10.his point of order and forgiving me notice of it. It appears that the

:44:11. > :44:14.honourable member has received a most unsatisfactory response from

:44:15. > :44:17.the weather to his question and his correspondence on a matter which is

:44:18. > :44:22.clearly of urgent interest to his constituents. While it is for the

:44:23. > :44:27.government to decide which department has lead responsibility

:44:28. > :44:29.for a matter, it is clearly important to Parliamentary scrutiny

:44:30. > :44:35.and public accountability that government is clear and consistent

:44:36. > :44:38.on where responsibility lies. What the honourable gentleman has said

:44:39. > :44:47.will have been heard on the Treasury benches and will I trust... Be

:44:48. > :44:52.conveyed to the relevant ministers. If the honourable gentleman wishes

:44:53. > :44:55.to pursue the specific matter of the unsatisfactory response to his

:44:56. > :44:59.Parliamentary question, he may wish to write to the Chair of the

:45:00. > :45:03.procedure committee, the honourable gentleman the member for Broxbourne,

:45:04. > :45:08.because his committee monitors these important matters. I hope that that

:45:09. > :45:12.will serve the honourable gentleman for now and be a useful guide to

:45:13. > :45:18.members across the House. Point of order. Mr Speaker, this is a point

:45:19. > :45:23.of order about the rights of backbenchers to be heard in this

:45:24. > :45:26.Chamber. You will know Mr Speaker that some of us are very good

:45:27. > :45:32.attenders at business questions on Thursday. Last Thursday I think the

:45:33. > :45:36.front benches took 25 minutes in terms of their contribution, which

:45:37. > :45:41.really does, I know you are very generous, but the predominance of

:45:42. > :45:45.the front bench, all three front benches, went on for a very long

:45:46. > :45:50.time. And it does squeeze the genuine backbencher. And on these

:45:51. > :45:57.benches we are genuine backbenchers, fighting all the time to get space

:45:58. > :46:01.against the frontbenchers, who are also backbenchers part-time. So if

:46:02. > :46:08.you could have a little bit of a word. I also have to say, I have

:46:09. > :46:11.never known such a nasty, acrimonious jousting between the two

:46:12. > :46:17.front benches last Thursday. Wasn't funny and it wasn't nice. I note

:46:18. > :46:22.what he says, to which I would just respond as follows. I note what he

:46:23. > :46:26.says about him never having witnessed such unpleasantness in

:46:27. > :46:31.exchanges. I have never witnessed, in nearly 19 years in the House, the

:46:32. > :46:39.honourable gentleman being squeezed by anybody. The honourable gentleman

:46:40. > :46:43.almost invariably gets in. But I do take on board the very serious point

:46:44. > :46:48.he makes. Although I don't think in the end members get squeezed if they

:46:49. > :46:53.have the time to stay, because the record shows that almost invariably,

:46:54. > :46:56.I let business questions run until everybody has had a chance to

:46:57. > :47:00.contribute, which was not always the practice in the past. I do accept

:47:01. > :47:03.that people have got time constraints and they may have to go

:47:04. > :47:10.elsewhere, including constituency and Parliamentary duties. And

:47:11. > :47:16.therefore it is quite important that they should not have to wait an

:47:17. > :47:21.excessive period of time. My own view is similar to that of the

:47:22. > :47:25.honourable gentleman - I think the frontbenchers are taking too long,

:47:26. > :47:28.and they have started to take longer recently, not only on account of the

:47:29. > :47:34.involvement of the Scottish National Party, which is a very legitimate

:47:35. > :47:38.and proper involvement, but also because, between the government

:47:39. > :47:40.front bench and the official opposition, those exchanges are

:47:41. > :47:48.taking too long. Frontbenchers have now been duly chided not just by the

:47:49. > :47:54.Chair but very importantly by an honourable member with, in May, 37

:47:55. > :47:59.years uninterrupted service in the House, namely the honourable

:48:00. > :48:03.gentleman. I hope that message will be duly heeded, starting this

:48:04. > :48:07.Thursday. And I will have the point in mind as I hear the shadow leader

:48:08. > :48:17.and the leader. I hope that is helpful. Well, it seems only

:48:18. > :48:21.yesterday that the honourable gentleman entered the House, he

:48:22. > :48:25.scarcely seems old enough to have been here for 37 years, but it is

:48:26. > :48:31.nevertheless a fact. Or it will be in May. We come now to the ten

:48:32. > :48:37.minute rule motion, Mr Gareth Thomas.

:48:38. > :48:41.I beg to move that leave be given to bring in a bill to make provision

:48:42. > :48:45.about the entitlement of employees to benefit from profits made by

:48:46. > :48:49.their employers in certain circumstances, to require a company

:48:50. > :48:54.to allocate one seat on its board to an employee representative and for

:48:55. > :48:59.connected purposes. Mr Speaker, if you work hard for a company and help

:49:00. > :49:02.it succeed and make a profit, then surely the owner should share a

:49:03. > :49:07.little of those profits with you and other employees. The best companies

:49:08. > :49:10.already do. The best companies also want their staff involved in

:49:11. > :49:12.decision-making at the highest level, using their knowledge and

:49:13. > :49:18.expertise to help plot company strategy and keep senior management

:49:19. > :49:20.on their toes. In truth, Britain has a productivity and fairness problem.

:49:21. > :49:24.Despite numerous initiatives, we are Despite numerous initiatives, we are

:49:25. > :49:28.behind our main competitors in terms of productivity whilst at the same

:49:29. > :49:32.time inequality continues to grow. Changing the way companies work, how

:49:33. > :49:36.they take key decisions and who is involved in those decisions is one

:49:37. > :49:43.essential for sorting these problems out. We lag behind the rest of the

:49:44. > :49:50.G7 and most of the G20 in how productive our economy is. For

:49:51. > :49:55.2010-14, annual average labour productivity was lower in Britain

:49:56. > :49:58.than in any other G20 or G7 country. Whilst executive pay has shot up in

:49:59. > :50:02.recent years, the incomes of the rest of the workforce have struggled

:50:03. > :50:07.to keep pace even with historically low levels of inflation. Part of the

:50:08. > :50:18.solution involves sharing a little more of the power and profits of

:50:19. > :50:22.business with staff at all levels. Companies like John Lewis share some

:50:23. > :50:27.of the profits with staff, giving the most junior staff direct

:50:28. > :50:31.incentives to work even harder, think imaginatively and go the extra

:50:32. > :50:35.mile. Employees also get to help choose the board, again giving staff

:50:36. > :50:37.direct response of the tea for selecting those at the very top

:50:38. > :50:43.whose decisions they will have to follow. This ensures the concerns of

:50:44. > :50:48.staff get heard at the top table, which is especially important as it

:50:49. > :50:51.is staff who depend especially on a stable business for their

:50:52. > :50:54.livelihood. Absent owners or disengaged shareholders may have

:50:55. > :50:58.other priorities. In countries like France and Germany, this shared

:50:59. > :51:03.capitalism is a standout feature of the business practice. Companies

:51:04. > :51:09.like dodger bank have staff on their German ward who play an important

:51:10. > :51:12.and positive role. In France, firms of 50 or more employees benefit by

:51:13. > :51:16.up to 5% of profits being shared by up to 5% of profits being shared by

:51:17. > :51:20.all staff except recent arrivals. French governments of all political

:51:21. > :51:25.persuasions have a long history of encouraging profit-sharing amongst

:51:26. > :51:29.companies. I understand laws on profit-sharing have existed for more

:51:30. > :51:34.than 50 is there, requiring a mandatory profit-sharing scheme to

:51:35. > :51:36.be negotiated with French employees. Companies in France can choose to

:51:37. > :51:41.distribute rewards either as a flat rate to employees, in proportion to

:51:42. > :51:48.wages, in proportion to hours worked in the previous year or a scheme

:51:49. > :51:50.based on a combination of those. Arguably, the prevalence of

:51:51. > :51:56.profit-sharing makes an important contribution to higher levels of

:51:57. > :52:00.French productivity. Train 2010-14, France had levels of productivity an

:52:01. > :52:07.hour almost double those in the UK. Employees on boards is the norm in

:52:08. > :52:11.many other successful countries. In Denmark, France, Finland, Norway,

:52:12. > :52:15.Sweden and Germany, at least one director is elected by the

:52:16. > :52:18.employees. In Norway, favoured by some for being outside of the

:52:19. > :52:24.European Union, once a business has 30 employees, one director has to be

:52:25. > :52:31.chosen workforce. Sweden, another key UK ally, once a company has 25

:52:32. > :52:35.employees, around a third of directors have to be workers in the

:52:36. > :52:40.business. IKEA, the staple of the British high street, has worker

:52:41. > :52:46.directors on its Swedish board. In France, companies with 1000 or more

:52:47. > :52:51.employees, or 5000 or more if worldwide, have to have at least one

:52:52. > :52:54.or two staff on the board. Third of all board members on stage and

:52:55. > :52:58.companies are elected by the staff. In Germany, the third of the

:52:59. > :53:03.supervising board in companies with 500 or more employees are staff.

:53:04. > :53:09.This rises teeny half in companies with more than 2000 employees. In

:53:10. > :53:13.this country, we have for a long time quietly been happy to endorse

:53:14. > :53:18.workers on boards, albeit so long as they are overseas businesses. EDF,

:53:19. > :53:22.France's leading nuclear energy company and in the process of being

:53:23. > :53:25.handed the keys to Hinkley Point, has a board on which one third of

:53:26. > :53:30.its members are elected by its workers. As a French company, EDF

:53:31. > :53:34.also has a profit-sharing scheme. Dodger bun, who run through their

:53:35. > :53:41.subsidiaries much of our rail network, have six board members

:53:42. > :53:48.elected by staff. English workers in these companies do not get to vote

:53:49. > :53:51.for board members. It is just German and French staff. In short, if

:53:52. > :53:56.German workers are good enough to sit on a company board, if French

:53:57. > :54:02.workers are, if Swedish workers are, isn't it time that English and

:54:03. > :54:08.British workers were given their chance,, too,? There are a number of

:54:09. > :54:12.companies working in tough markets who have demonstrated that employee

:54:13. > :54:19.directors work. John Lewis is one of those. First Group are another. Mick

:54:20. > :54:24.Barker is the employee director of first group. He has been a railway

:54:25. > :54:29.man for 39 years and is employed as a train driver for First Great

:54:30. > :54:32.Western. He serves on the board and various committees of the group.

:54:33. > :54:37.First Group encourage their operating companies to elect

:54:38. > :54:41.employee directors to boards, so that in their own words, the views

:54:42. > :54:45.and opinions of staff are represented at the very highest

:54:46. > :54:49.level. In the UK, Mr Speaker, the response to the concern about high

:54:50. > :54:53.levels of executive pay and falling workers' wages has seen some debate

:54:54. > :55:00.about broadening the mothership of remuneration committees of big

:55:01. > :55:03.companies to include staff. The Department for Business innovation

:55:04. > :55:10.and skills considered this in 2011 but sadly nothing happened. Analysis

:55:11. > :55:13.from the House of Commons library suggests that if a French style

:55:14. > :55:18.profit-sharing system was introduced in the UK, corporate household names

:55:19. > :55:24.could be allocated to their staff an extra ?500- ?1200 per year once

:55:25. > :55:28.profits have been declared. Not huge sums of money to those at the very

:55:29. > :55:31.top of those businesses, but helping to reward better the collective hard

:55:32. > :55:35.work which is required for any business to succeed. It does not add

:55:36. > :55:39.to business costs nor does it undermine pay differentials between

:55:40. > :55:44.skilled and unskilled workers, or between founder and recent

:55:45. > :55:48.employees. But it does offer an incentive to alter corporate

:55:49. > :55:53.together to support business success and achieve higher returns. And

:55:54. > :55:56.owners alike. As the IPPR have noted, if every private sector in

:55:57. > :56:01.the UK with 500 or more employees had a profit-sharing scheme, over 8

:56:02. > :56:07.million people in 3000 British firms could benefit from hundreds of

:56:08. > :56:11.pounds a year extra. Company law, Mr Speaker, in my view needs to change

:56:12. > :56:14.to reflect modern Britain. Employees' crucial stake in the

:56:15. > :56:18.success of their employer needs recognition in law. Strong

:56:19. > :56:23.businesses, better rewards for staff, higher productivity and a

:56:24. > :56:27.less unequal country. This bill is a step towards those ambitions and I

:56:28. > :56:30.commend it to the House. The question is that the honourable

:56:31. > :56:43.member have leave to bring in the bill. I think the ayes have it. Who

:56:44. > :56:46.will prepare and bring in the bill? Mr Chris Evans. Meg Hillier. Steven

:56:47. > :57:43.Reid... Mr John Woodcock and myself. Profit sharing and company

:57:44. > :57:54.governance Bill. Friday the 11th of March. Order, we come to the ways

:57:55. > :58:02.and means motion? Formally. The question is the charities protection

:58:03. > :58:11.and social investment Bill. Formally. The question is on the

:58:12. > :58:22.order paper. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary,

:58:23. > :58:26."no". I think the ayes has it. The question is is only paper. As many

:58:27. > :58:31.as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I think the ayes

:58:32. > :58:39.have it. Although, I remind the have it. Although, I remind the

:58:40. > :58:43.house, that at the end of the report today, I am considering the

:58:44. > :58:50.Bill-macro as amended for certification. That's dedication is

:58:51. > :58:56.available on the Parliament website and the vote office. The clerk will

:58:57. > :59:04.now proceed to read the orders of the day.

:59:05. > :59:13.Charities protection and social investment Bill-macro, is to be

:59:14. > :59:17.considered. Border, we begin with new clause one, which will be

:59:18. > :59:22.convenient to read the amendments listed on the selection paper. To

:59:23. > :59:36.read that clause one, I call Anna Turley. It is a pleasure to be

:59:37. > :59:40.speaking here today on behalf on Her Majesty's opposition on this my

:59:41. > :59:51.first bill. We have had an excellent committee process, and other -- I

:59:52. > :59:55.welcome the opportunity to speak about the process. It is to provide

:59:56. > :00:01.a strong revelatory framework to support the charity sector and

:00:02. > :00:05.trustees. It strengthens the Charity commission's arm by giving them more

:00:06. > :00:09.powers. It is an important objective, and Juanmi support. We're

:00:10. > :00:13.clear it must have the right safeguards in place. The Charity

:00:14. > :00:18.commission is the guardian of public trust and confidence in charities.

:00:19. > :00:21.On the whole it doesn't excellent job, particularly in the context of

:00:22. > :00:26.the assault on its budget in the last six years. It is important for

:00:27. > :00:29.the integrity of the charitable sector that the commission has the

:00:30. > :00:34.tools to do its job properly. For this reason we are supportive of

:00:35. > :00:39.many of the provisions in the bill. However, as with any regulator, it

:00:40. > :00:47.is vital to insure that the powers are subject to the right safeguards.

:00:48. > :00:50.Some safeguards are lacking, and leave scope for the commission to

:00:51. > :00:54.overreach themselves. This threatens the independence of charities, the

:00:55. > :00:57.integrity of the commission, and could fundamentally change the

:00:58. > :01:02.relationship between the commission and the charity sector. Our concerns

:01:03. > :01:07.are shared by the sector, the advisers and the charity law

:01:08. > :01:10.organisation, said the powers need to be balanced by proportionate

:01:11. > :01:18.safeguards, pointing out that the new powers in the bill will apply to

:01:19. > :01:27.all charities, and the hundreds of thousands well-meaning volunteers

:01:28. > :01:29.and trustees. The Association of Chief executives of voluntary

:01:30. > :01:35.reorganisation is, the National Council for voluntary organisations

:01:36. > :01:39.have professed worries about lack of accurate safeguards will stop the

:01:40. > :01:44.committee in the House of Commons scrutinising in early draft of the

:01:45. > :01:50.bill called for safeguards to be introduced, and we called for the

:01:51. > :01:51.easing committee. The Charity commission has a statutory

:01:52. > :01:57.obligation to act proportionately. We knowledge this. Experience has

:01:58. > :02:02.shown it is sadly not enough. In a recent court case involving the

:02:03. > :02:10.commission and the Joseph Rowntree charitable trust, ludicrous time

:02:11. > :02:14.limits we impose on the commission. He said it was understood why the

:02:15. > :02:18.high-handed manner. The commission high-handed manner. The commission

:02:19. > :02:22.should have powers to do its job, but sensible limits should be

:02:23. > :02:28.imposed on how they exercise their powers. Our amendments will address

:02:29. > :02:32.this balance. She has made an excellent speech, I congratulate

:02:33. > :02:35.their run it. Those of us who work in the charitable sector, and I

:02:36. > :02:39.chair and a trustee of many charities. One of the concerns we

:02:40. > :02:44.have had for a long time is the weakness of the charities commission

:02:45. > :02:48.terrified that they case ending up terrified that they case ending up

:02:49. > :02:52.in the High Court. We really do need, and I support this bill, we

:02:53. > :02:57.need a strong commission back and do its job in the way they have not

:02:58. > :03:01.been able to do for many years. My honourable friend is absolutely

:03:02. > :03:07.right. That is why we support the bill and the powers it gives the

:03:08. > :03:11.Charity commission. He talks about the clarity and confusion which

:03:12. > :03:16.could be costly. We are keen to get some clarity on some of the grey

:03:17. > :03:19.areas and boundaries. Some of the improper balances in the bill.

:03:20. > :03:24.Importantly get this on the record while the bill is giving three

:03:25. > :03:29.process before it ends up in costly processes in court. I will speak

:03:30. > :03:39.specifically of new clause one, and elements nine, ten and 12. The bill

:03:40. > :03:43.introduces a new power for the charity Commission, which gives new

:03:44. > :03:48.powers to a trustee. The bill says the power is given where a risk on

:03:49. > :03:51.charitable aspects and services is relatively low. The new power could

:03:52. > :03:56.have a far-reaching impact on charities. The bill gives complete

:03:57. > :04:00.discretion about exercising a warning. This could have serious

:04:01. > :04:05.indications for the charity involved. The public, media and

:04:06. > :04:08.funders may not distinguish between a low-level issue giving rise to a

:04:09. > :04:18.warning and something much more severe. It is reporting we recognise

:04:19. > :04:25.this in context to high-level issues that have been in the public domain.

:04:26. > :04:32.A breach of low-level trust by a charity trustee, it is our

:04:33. > :04:36.understanding that they intend to use the low-level warning power. It

:04:37. > :04:41.is paramount for charities and charity trustees. The advert

:04:42. > :04:45.oppositely resulting from a warning could lead to a choking off of

:04:46. > :04:50.donations, grant funding, and corporate sponsorships, leading to

:04:51. > :04:56.potential redundancies and closing of services. Close two of the bill

:04:57. > :04:59.makes a change in circumstances in which the commission can take things

:05:00. > :05:06.began protected measures in relation to charities. Failure to report a

:05:07. > :05:11.breach of trust is automatically trigger to further action. This is

:05:12. > :05:16.startling for a power which is to be used in low-level cases. Our

:05:17. > :05:26.amendments address these concerns and four ways. Firstly through

:05:27. > :05:30.amendments nine and eight, it would limit the publication to a wider

:05:31. > :05:34.warning. This would ensure the charity can take the commission's

:05:35. > :05:39.concerns seriously, but would have no impact on the charity's relation.

:05:40. > :05:42.If the charity fails to comply with the warning, they can take further

:05:43. > :05:47.action at that stage which would attract other cities. Low-level

:05:48. > :05:51.concerns would not be publicised. That would ensure action is

:05:52. > :05:56.proportionate, and would not potentially fatally impact the

:05:57. > :06:00.charity for a minor error. I am extremely grateful for my honourable

:06:01. > :06:03.friend forgiving way on that point. It has been stated numerous times

:06:04. > :06:08.that the charity Commission sees itself as a partner to work with

:06:09. > :06:14.charities, wouldn't the method she is describing B1 partnership, using

:06:15. > :06:21.the expertise of the Charity Commission to improve the challenges

:06:22. > :06:28.charities face on the front line. Delivering outcome for the

:06:29. > :06:32.beneficiaries. Rather than charities as a whole and the individual

:06:33. > :06:37.charity concerned was not my honourable friend makes an extremely

:06:38. > :06:42.important point. It is clear that when it works in terms of giving

:06:43. > :06:46.guidance to charities, it is extremely effective. Particularly

:06:47. > :06:51.given the pressures on the finances, expecting it to do a wide range of

:06:52. > :06:57.enforcement in this manner, could be quite costly. My honourable friend

:06:58. > :07:00.makes an extremely potent point. Alternatively Amendment ten would

:07:01. > :07:04.allow the commission to make details of the warning public without

:07:05. > :07:08.referencing the charity itself or a trustee by name. This would allow

:07:09. > :07:15.them to publisher warning anonymously if it felt it would be

:07:16. > :07:20.giving lessons to the sector. Secondly through amendments 11 the

:07:21. > :07:22.commission would be obliged to give the charity adequate notice of its

:07:23. > :07:28.intention to give a warning. At present the bill specifies they

:07:29. > :07:31.should give notice, but there is no specified notice period. There is

:07:32. > :07:37.nothing stopping the commission giving 24 hours notice publishing a

:07:38. > :07:42.warning, which would give trustees, and any staff no time to respond.

:07:43. > :07:43.This is a real risk, in the High Court case I mentioned earlier, it

:07:44. > :07:47.is understood charity trustees were is understood charity trustees were

:07:48. > :07:53.given less than 24 hours to respond to the commission. Prompting the

:07:54. > :07:59.Lord Chief Justice to describe the time limit is ludicrous.

:08:00. > :08:04.Recommendations that reasonable notice period over a draft warning

:08:05. > :08:07.should be clear on the face of the bill. The gunmen's response accepted

:08:08. > :08:19.a recipient should have the opposite a recipient should have the opposite

:08:20. > :08:23.-- opportunity to make a response. The gunmen may argue they could be

:08:24. > :08:26.some circumstances where the commission has such serious

:08:27. > :08:29.concerns, it must act with sleep without notice. In cases like this,

:08:30. > :08:34.the commission should be exercising some of the other glittery powers

:08:35. > :08:38.designed for serious concerns, some of which may be used without advance

:08:39. > :08:44.notice. We have been told the warning power is not intended for

:08:45. > :08:48.such serious cases. We could use a small amendment to the government

:08:49. > :08:56.amendment two, the power to withdraw or bury awarding. The power

:08:57. > :09:00.minimises damage to a charity from a warning. It is right that if the

:09:01. > :09:05.warning was found to be incorrectly given, it should be publicly

:09:06. > :09:09.revoked, and any damage undone. Thirdly, and men insured is

:09:10. > :09:12.absolutely clear from the face of the bill the commission will not be

:09:13. > :09:17.able to use the warning power to direct charities. It is not

:09:18. > :09:22.appropriate for the commission to direct charity trustees at Iraq. It

:09:23. > :09:27.is clear from the Charities Act, 2011, the commission is not able to

:09:28. > :09:32.act as a trustee, except in a small number of conditions. These are

:09:33. > :09:39.rightly subject to very strict regards. The garment it agrees with

:09:40. > :09:44.this principle, in responding to the charity commission consultation,

:09:45. > :09:50.government specifically decided not to extend powers outside a formal

:09:51. > :09:54.statutory enquiry. If the commission can use their warning power to

:09:55. > :09:58.direct charities, it would be able to give directions via the back

:09:59. > :10:00.door. A fundamental shift in the delicate balance between the

:10:01. > :10:04.commission and charities, and should not be allowed. We would welcome

:10:05. > :10:08.clarification from the Minister on this point, as there seems to be

:10:09. > :10:13.confusion in the sector on this issue. It is our understanding the

:10:14. > :10:17.commission does not see the warning power is giving power to direct

:10:18. > :10:24.charities, but expanding notes to the bill seem to say the opposite.

:10:25. > :10:28.Unless it is opening in enquiry, purely on purposes on giving

:10:29. > :10:31.direction, issuing a warning could be a way of making it clear to a

:10:32. > :10:37.charity that they should take action. There was confusion over a

:10:38. > :10:43.serious issue giving rise to the High Court case, prompting the Lord

:10:44. > :10:46.Chief Justice's comments. While a warning could be used to give advice

:10:47. > :10:53.or guidance to a charity, which can be positive as my honourable friend

:10:54. > :10:55.for Hove set out. It can remedy the conduct which gives rise to a

:10:56. > :11:06.warning, but cannot be used to directly just ease -- directly

:11:07. > :11:09.trustees to take action. I have explained the consequences which the

:11:10. > :11:18.issuing of a warning is for a charity. The Charity Tribunal is a

:11:19. > :11:23.low-cost form, established in the Gyan charities chemical act.

:11:24. > :11:27.Charities affected by one and only able to challenge by judicial

:11:28. > :11:30.review. That is expensive, can be catered and time-consuming.

:11:31. > :11:35.Completing appropriate option for a mechanism intended to address

:11:36. > :11:38.low-level noncompliance. The charity tribunal was introduced precisely

:11:39. > :11:44.so, and charities would not have to rely on costly review proceedings to

:11:45. > :11:47.challenge the decision-making. There is no good reason and none was

:11:48. > :11:50.forthcoming committee as to why it should not be possible to appeal an

:11:51. > :11:55.official warning to the charity tribunal. It is logical, that the

:11:56. > :12:00.exercise of the warning power should be more difficult to challenge than

:12:01. > :12:02.the exercise of the commission's more extensive ring literary powers

:12:03. > :12:07.which can be appealed to the tribunal. It is worth me

:12:08. > :12:10.highlighting that the warning can be issued if the commission considers

:12:11. > :12:14.there has been a breach of duty, something that may well be disputed

:12:15. > :12:18.by the charity. Secondly, failure to comply to the warning can allow the

:12:19. > :12:23.commission to take more so than revelatory action. These two factors

:12:24. > :12:25.make it important for a charity to have a realistic way of challenging

:12:26. > :12:37.a warning. I come now to clause ten, the power

:12:38. > :12:40.to disqualify. The bill will give the Charity Commission a completely

:12:41. > :12:44.new power to disqualify someone from being a charity trustee. Again, we

:12:45. > :12:50.have significant concerns about the scope of this power. And we are not

:12:51. > :12:54.alone. The joint committee expressed concerns about the safeguards on

:12:55. > :13:00.this power. They said that although it appears to be robust, in fact, it

:13:01. > :13:06.is insufficiently defined and lacks clarity and sufficient safeguards.

:13:07. > :13:10.The commission is concerned to protect safeguards from unscrupulous

:13:11. > :13:13.trustees. But we have to recognise the adverse impact which

:13:14. > :13:18.disqualification might have on an individual. Our amendments would

:13:19. > :13:21.improve the power in three ways. One precondition is that the commission

:13:22. > :13:26.should be satisfied that the person concerned is unfit to be a charity

:13:27. > :13:31.trustee. The legislation includes no guidance at all as to the meaning of

:13:32. > :13:35.unfit, which leaves a considerable degree of discretion in the hands of

:13:36. > :13:38.the commission. Our amendment 14 obliges the commission to publish a

:13:39. > :13:44.definition of unfit after consultation. This will go some way

:13:45. > :13:48.to introducing objective criteria by which to assess unfitness. The

:13:49. > :13:52.commission does qualify as a person on the basis of past conduct, which

:13:53. > :13:57.it considers is likely to be damaging to public trust in

:13:58. > :14:01.charities, and our amendment number 15 makes it clear that the conduct

:14:02. > :14:05.must be both relevant and serious. Amendment 13 six to ensure that

:14:06. > :14:09.where it has been a collective failure by more than one individual,

:14:10. > :14:12.more than one person can be disqualified. This can be necessary

:14:13. > :14:16.in situations where more than one member of the board have

:14:17. > :14:20.collectively turned a blind eye to abuse or misdemeanour within a

:14:21. > :14:24.charity. In some of the sexual abuse cases which have come to light

:14:25. > :14:28.recently, there has been what can only be described as a conspiracy of

:14:29. > :14:38.silence. This amendments six to challenge that. In summary, these

:14:39. > :14:40.amendments and the new clause are intended to provide safeguards and

:14:41. > :14:52.we believe they will strengthen the original clauses, not weaken them.

:14:53. > :14:57.Otherwise we could have confusion, error, suspicion and mistrust

:14:58. > :15:01.between the sector and its regulator. A more balanced approach

:15:02. > :15:04.and the strengthening of the boundaries of the relationship will

:15:05. > :15:13.give greater confidence to both sides on how to proceed in the use

:15:14. > :15:19.of the bill's new powers. It might be helpful if I clear up one thing

:15:20. > :15:22.about the power to direct. An official warning is not the same as

:15:23. > :15:27.a direction power. There may have been some confusion with regard to

:15:28. > :15:31.the explanatory notes, which the honourable lady raised in her

:15:32. > :15:35.speech. I would be very happy to ensure there is an updating of the

:15:36. > :15:39.explanatory notes to make it absolutely clear that you cannot use

:15:40. > :15:44.the warning power to direct charities - if that is helpful. That

:15:45. > :15:46.is extremely helpful and I appreciate the minister being so

:15:47. > :15:50.quick and forthcoming with his clarity on that. I think that will

:15:51. > :15:57.give the sector a lot of reassurance on this point. I move on now to our

:15:58. > :16:01.new clauses two and three. On new clause two, this seeks to replace a

:16:02. > :16:05.clause of the bill which was put in during its processed through the

:16:06. > :16:09.Other Place but which was removed by this House. I would like to pay

:16:10. > :16:12.tribute to our noble friends in the Other Place who successfully added

:16:13. > :16:18.this close to the bill. We are finding them to be great defenders

:16:19. > :16:24.of social justice and friendless. -- fairness. This makes sure that they

:16:25. > :16:32.can adhere to their charitable aims and objectives. As we have always

:16:33. > :16:35.been clear, the clause is especially relevant to housing and aims to

:16:36. > :16:39.protect charities and housing associations when the government

:16:40. > :16:43.later mandates them to sell their property under the right to buy

:16:44. > :16:46.proposals. We on this side want those who desire to be home overs to

:16:47. > :16:51.achieve their aspiration. The number of homeowners has fallen under this

:16:52. > :16:57.government by 200,000. Under Labour, it rose by more than a million up to

:16:58. > :17:01.2010. We support that aspiration and I want to be clear on that. However,

:17:02. > :17:07.the problem this clause six to address is one of compulsion. I

:17:08. > :17:13.agree with her in what she is saying. But the level of owner

:17:14. > :17:16.occupation is actually declining because house prices have risen way

:17:17. > :17:22.beyond most people's ability to afford them. Is it not really the

:17:23. > :17:26.problem that decent, social rented housing, they should need to be

:17:27. > :17:29.keeping all of it in the public sector now to make sure that we can

:17:30. > :17:36.house people properly? My honourable friend makes an extremely important

:17:37. > :17:41.point. The real crisis is in social housing, as he says. Purpose of this

:17:42. > :17:45.amendment is to ensure that we protect and maintain what social

:17:46. > :17:49.housing we do have and maintain it in the hands of the charitable

:17:50. > :17:55.sector and the housing associations which own it and that it is not sold

:17:56. > :17:59.off for profit. The problem this new clause six to address is one of

:18:00. > :18:02.compulsion and of the fundamental rights and the position in law of

:18:03. > :18:06.housing associations in charities. The independence of the charitable

:18:07. > :18:10.sector from government is an important strength of British civic

:18:11. > :18:14.society and it is to be cherished. We do not support the right of a

:18:15. > :18:19.government to direct a charity against its independent will and

:18:20. > :18:22.contrary to its charitable purposes and to expose its assets according

:18:23. > :18:29.to the governments desire. This is an infringement. For many housing

:18:30. > :18:33.associations it will go against the very grain of their founding

:18:34. > :18:36.purpose. Many housing associations are charities. They provide 2.5

:18:37. > :18:43.million homes for 5 million people on affordable rents. Many unable

:18:44. > :18:48.people to live independently. Others offer shared ownership for those on

:18:49. > :18:51.low incomes. These aims are in the charitable DNA of housing

:18:52. > :18:55.associations and are not for the government to tamper with. The

:18:56. > :18:59.unintended consequences of the right to buy proposals could undermine

:19:00. > :19:04.charity law which goes back for centuries. It is allowing the

:19:05. > :19:13.seizing of assets of charities and associations. These houses were

:19:14. > :19:20.often bequeathed by philanthropists and trusts. Housing associations

:19:21. > :19:23.would ideally like to build many thousands of properties, but this

:19:24. > :19:28.aim could be undermined if they are forced to sell off stock. Often

:19:29. > :19:32.housing associations can leave a finance on the basis of properties

:19:33. > :19:36.they already own. Write to Bible force housing associations to sell

:19:37. > :19:40.properties and will give them less control over these decisions and

:19:41. > :19:45.importantly it will make it more difficult for them to meet their

:19:46. > :19:47.charitable purposes. Any diminishing of housing stock could harm the

:19:48. > :19:53.housing associations' borrowing powers. As the national housing

:19:54. > :19:58.federation has said, it is key that housing associations are in full

:19:59. > :20:02.control of the assets against which they borrowed to build homes trough

:20:03. > :20:05.we on this side as well as many housing associations across the

:20:06. > :20:07.country have always said that the extension of the right to buy to

:20:08. > :20:13.housing associations is unworkable and wrong. It will lead to a severe

:20:14. > :20:16.and irreversible loss of affordable homes at a time when they could

:20:17. > :20:20.never have been more needed, because the government has no genuine plan

:20:21. > :20:24.for like-for-like replacement. And the rights to buy historically, we

:20:25. > :20:32.know that only one in ten homes which have been sold have been

:20:33. > :20:37.replaced. Even for those who support the sale of council houses and the

:20:38. > :20:43.sale of housing association houses, if the subsidy came direct from the

:20:44. > :20:46.Treasury, it would be very different from making the local authorities

:20:47. > :20:49.and housing associations pay for the subsidy out of their assets. My

:20:50. > :20:53.honourable friend is absolutely right. It has been apparent

:20:54. > :20:57.throughout the bill that there has been a black hole in the plans to

:20:58. > :21:00.fund this proposal. There are currently 2 million people on

:21:01. > :21:04.waiting lists due to the dearth of homes with affordable rents. Our new

:21:05. > :21:08.clause which protects housing associations from being compelled to

:21:09. > :21:13.sell phones will prevent the further reduction of this supply of homes.

:21:14. > :21:17.Many homes are rapidly rented out why private landlords at a full

:21:18. > :21:24.market rent, serving to drive up market prices and increased poverty

:21:25. > :21:28.through hacking costs -- through housing costs. This would go against

:21:29. > :21:33.the charitable objectives of most housing associations. We are

:21:34. > :21:36.concerned that the Government wants to interfere with the duties of

:21:37. > :21:38.charity trustees to put their beneficiaries first and to comply

:21:39. > :21:44.with their fundamental charitable purposes trough housing

:21:45. > :21:47.associations, already part take in right to buy options for tenants

:21:48. > :21:54.where it accords with charitable objectives. The problem arises where

:21:55. > :21:58.it conflicts with them. It is not acceptable that the duties of trusts

:21:59. > :22:02.can be overridden by the government. That is what our clause seeks to

:22:03. > :22:06.protect. I come now to our new clause three. This will enshrine the

:22:07. > :22:09.right of charities to undertake political campaigning activity. We

:22:10. > :22:15.are clear that this is a direct attempt to challenge the unfair and

:22:16. > :22:18.poorly applied transparency of lobbying trade union administration

:22:19. > :22:21.at 2014, known commonly as the gagging act. Come paining is an

:22:22. > :22:26.important part of democracy and civil society. A fundamental

:22:27. > :22:29.principle of a thriving democracy is that individuals and organisations

:22:30. > :22:36.can speak out about the issues they care about. In relation to new

:22:37. > :22:40.clause two, she has made the case about the ancient rights of

:22:41. > :22:43.charities. She will also be well aware that the ancient walls around

:22:44. > :22:46.charities going back 400 years to the time of James the first was very

:22:47. > :22:54.much that charities should not involve themselves in politics. It

:22:55. > :22:58.seems rather perverse that she talks about ancient charitable rights and

:22:59. > :23:02.is happy to run roughshod over them in new clause three. On the

:23:03. > :23:05.contrary, I think it is the gagging act which ran roughshod over the

:23:06. > :23:09.historic rights in the charity sector to defend and campaign on

:23:10. > :23:15.causes which it is fundamentally there to tackle. I am extremely

:23:16. > :23:21.grateful. She is making incredibly powerful points. Also, it is about

:23:22. > :23:25.freedom of speech for everyone, every Tasers and organisation in

:23:26. > :23:29.this country. But it is also about making sure that those who are

:23:30. > :23:34.disempowered, individuals and communities who lacked a voice, have

:23:35. > :23:39.advocates who can speak unencumbered as humanly possible, and speak with

:23:40. > :23:42.a ferocity which those who lack a voice deserving our society. My

:23:43. > :23:46.honourable friend is absolutely right and pays tribute to those

:23:47. > :23:49.charities who do some of the most important work for the most excluded

:23:50. > :23:53.and those who need a voice and who are often those who suffer the

:23:54. > :23:56.consequences of bad policy-making in This Place. And it is charities who

:23:57. > :24:01.are often picking up the pieces of that policy-making. I am slightly

:24:02. > :24:06.mystified by some of these comments about so-called political activity.

:24:07. > :24:10.What we are talking about is basic advocacy. You only have to go back

:24:11. > :24:13.to the end of the First World War, you're talking about the Royal

:24:14. > :24:16.British Legion campaigning for jobs for veterans and things like that.

:24:17. > :24:21.We're not talking about party political campaigning. This is what

:24:22. > :24:25.the voluntary sector objected to in this act. My honourable friend is

:24:26. > :24:30.absolutely right. As she has just ably demonstrated, charities have a

:24:31. > :24:32.long established role in educating, informing the public, campaigning

:24:33. > :24:39.and securing positive social change throughout our history. Would the

:24:40. > :24:43.honourable lady not agree that charities can already make

:24:44. > :24:46.representations? They make representations to us as members of

:24:47. > :24:51.This Place. One big thing about a charity is that they have a special

:24:52. > :24:56.ethos, and that drives the work and activities that they do. And

:24:57. > :25:01.therefore I cannot understand why we seek to support this new clause. I

:25:02. > :25:03.think the honourable lady for that intervention, but it has been quite

:25:04. > :25:07.clear from the charitable sector that they felt that legislation

:25:08. > :25:11.stopped them from being able to pursue exactly the kind of claims

:25:12. > :25:15.she set out. We in this House will share many things in common with the

:25:16. > :25:18.charitable sector, not least trying to build a better society. It is

:25:19. > :25:22.absolutely right that we work together in partnership to build

:25:23. > :25:26.better policy-making and to try to shape the kind of society that she

:25:27. > :25:33.cares about. This has not come out of thin air. We are reacting to a

:25:34. > :25:35.very bad piece of legislation which the sector feels extremely strongly

:25:36. > :25:44.about and we want to continue to protect. I am grateful. I think part

:25:45. > :25:47.of the problem in this debate has concerned the word political. Prior

:25:48. > :25:51.to the introduction of the gagging law, there was no provision for

:25:52. > :25:56.charities to engage in party political activity in favour of

:25:57. > :25:58.political parties. And CC nine, the Charity Commission guidance document

:25:59. > :26:02.on campaigning for charities has always been clear about this. So

:26:03. > :26:05.what problem does she think the government was trying to solve when

:26:06. > :26:08.they introduced the gagging law? Because I cannot see one. I think my

:26:09. > :26:12.honourable friend is absolutely right. I think this ia a problem of

:26:13. > :26:15.a government which feels challenged and from the outside was happy to

:26:16. > :26:20.talk about coming in and being the most transparent, ever, once in

:26:21. > :26:23.power, pulls up the drawbridge and is nervous of the challenge it faces

:26:24. > :26:29.from this sector on key issues like badgers and bedroom tax. I thank the

:26:30. > :26:34.honourable lady. No-one likes scrutiny. We are very happy to have

:26:35. > :26:38.bodies that want to engage themselves in political lobbying.

:26:39. > :26:40.But they should not be charities. There are certain benefits, tax and

:26:41. > :26:46.other benefits, which go to charities. Bodies which wish to be

:26:47. > :26:50.political, party political, biased advocates, are perfectly able to do

:26:51. > :26:53.that. They can do that as companies or other corporations. The point is

:26:54. > :26:57.that the charitable sector brings with it a whole range of benefits,

:26:58. > :27:02.not least in taxation terms, which should not be abused for party

:27:03. > :27:05.political purposes. Would my honourable friend not agree with me

:27:06. > :27:08.then that it is a better use of taxpayers' money if a charity is

:27:09. > :27:13.picking up the pieces on something like disease, cancer, that it uses

:27:14. > :27:15.that money to lobby for better investment in research and

:27:16. > :27:24.development, if that is a better use? The only example, sorry to go

:27:25. > :27:26.through again arguments which were herding committee, but the only

:27:27. > :27:31.example which was given in the committee stage of a so-called

:27:32. > :27:34.chilling effect, or a charity which was prohibited from doing activities

:27:35. > :27:40.thanked to the so-called gagging law, was a Badger Trust. This was an

:27:41. > :27:45.organisation which was exquisitely party political. The CEO sent out an

:27:46. > :27:49.e-mail using the charity's e-mail system to all of its members, who

:27:50. > :27:54.may have any affiliation or none, saying that he had contributed to

:27:55. > :27:57.the Labour Party rural manifesto, it was wonderful, they should turn up

:27:58. > :28:01.at the launch of the manifesto, they should take heart in an anti-Cameron

:28:02. > :28:06.Reilly and presumably they should vote Labour. The honourable lady

:28:07. > :28:09.said that she supported that kind of behaviour, which was illegal. Surely

:28:10. > :28:13.we can all agree on all sides that that kind of behaviour is wrong, and

:28:14. > :28:15.her amendment should be defeated, because it would give the green

:28:16. > :28:21.light to that sort of extremely negative behaviour.

:28:22. > :28:28.I am surprised the honourable member has a problem with negative

:28:29. > :28:31.behaviour. It is a fact of life. I struggle to see what was wrong with

:28:32. > :28:36.that situation and I am happy to continue the conversation with the

:28:37. > :28:40.Charity commission. The honourable member saying that was the only

:28:41. > :28:45.evidence given. More than 160 charities signed a letter to the

:28:46. > :28:48.government saying legislation should be scrapped, including Save the

:28:49. > :28:55.Children, Salvation Army, Amnesty International. The charity sector is

:28:56. > :29:00.up in arms. I am grateful to my honourable friend. The problem

:29:01. > :29:05.people have is they didn't like the idea of dodgy lobbyists giving money

:29:06. > :29:11.to dodgy politicians. It wasn't about victimising groups like the

:29:12. > :29:15.Salvation Army. If he heard what the countryside Alliance said that the

:29:16. > :29:18.all-party Parliamentary group on charities and what they thought of

:29:19. > :29:22.the gagging act, it is a wide variety of groups. She makes an

:29:23. > :29:30.important point about the strength of feeling. I share the same

:29:31. > :29:37.concerns. Does the honourable member agree this gagging act, this new

:29:38. > :29:41.clause three would limit the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh

:29:42. > :29:46.assembly and the Northern Ireland assembly which was led at the Church

:29:47. > :29:57.of Scotland, registered charity itself. He makes an important point

:29:58. > :30:00.and I thank him. I will make some progress, if I may because I am

:30:01. > :30:04.conscious that there are many members who want to speak. Charity

:30:05. > :30:10.should not only have the right to campaign but they are best placed to

:30:11. > :30:15.provide important insights to improve policy-making. They are on

:30:16. > :30:19.the front line, seemed the gaps in supervision, inefficiencies and

:30:20. > :30:22.waste and spot the best ways of solving or preventing problems. Many

:30:23. > :30:26.charities can often make a big impact with the bigger resources

:30:27. > :30:38.through campaigning than to service delivery. Campaigning often saves

:30:39. > :30:42.taxpayers money. For example, as I mentioned, it is good to help care

:30:43. > :30:46.for patients with long-term conditions such as cancer. Merry

:30:47. > :30:55.charities do fantastic work. But is it better to push for better

:30:56. > :31:04.symptoms to awareness. Charities must... I will give way. I fear

:31:05. > :31:09.people's hard earned money they donate will be spent on political

:31:10. > :31:13.campaigning rather than the initial cause they donated for, such as true

:31:14. > :31:19.medical research. That is why this new clause three is flawed. I am

:31:20. > :31:26.surprised the honourable lady presumes to know what people think

:31:27. > :31:30.when they donate money. Many charities are aware of the high

:31:31. > :31:35.profile campaigning they do and that is to be commended. Many people

:31:36. > :31:43.support the powerful voice they have in the community. There are many

:31:44. > :31:49.people who would support those charities, and of course they can. I

:31:50. > :31:52.am grateful for his support. Charities have set up their

:31:53. > :32:01.concerns, including the fact the transparency of lobbying, and

:32:02. > :32:04.concern day-to-day activities of legitimate charities and voluntary

:32:05. > :32:06.organisations engaging with public policy would record by the rules and

:32:07. > :32:13.the number of organisations and groups with the affected. They felt

:32:14. > :32:16.the act was complex and unclear and it would be difficult for charities

:32:17. > :32:20.and other voluntary groups to understand whether any of the

:32:21. > :32:23.activities of the court, giving rise to a risk of discouraging

:32:24. > :32:28.campaigning activity. They felt it gave substantial discretion to the

:32:29. > :32:34.electoral commission creating burdensome regime leaving some

:32:35. > :32:40.charities, voluntary organisations and the electoral commission, open

:32:41. > :32:43.to legal challenge. It has been suggested the rules are so complex

:32:44. > :32:49.and unclear they are likely to have a chilling effect on the freedom of

:32:50. > :32:51.expression putting small organisations and the trustees and

:32:52. > :32:59.directors in fear of criminal penalty if they speak out. The act

:33:00. > :33:04.did stop charities from campaigning. It caused unnecessary cost and

:33:05. > :33:11.confusion. According to a report which looked at it effect on last

:33:12. > :33:19.year's General A Levels, the commission found that charities are

:33:20. > :33:23.faced with confusion over ambiguity. The commission says the many

:33:24. > :33:27.activities aimed at raising awareness and generating discussion

:33:28. > :33:30.ahead of the election when not to have taken place. A representative

:33:31. > :33:35.of the wildlife wildlife front of the commission that the act has

:33:36. > :33:41.created caution in parts of the sector and western times explaining

:33:42. > :33:44.it to trustees and stuff. It is not a piece of legislation we need.

:33:45. > :33:52.Greenpeace said it intended to participate in across nb -- NGO

:33:53. > :33:55.campaign but organisations ended up not participating leaving Greenpeace

:33:56. > :33:59.without enough partners to run the campaign. The Salvation Army said

:34:00. > :34:01.although it was traditionally not a campaigning charity and not in

:34:02. > :34:05.danger of exceeding the limit on it was wary of supporting causes that

:34:06. > :34:08.could be considered coalition campaigning because they felt the

:34:09. > :34:17.administrative cost would be excessive. The commission also found

:34:18. > :34:20.voluntary groups undertaking government contracts remain threats

:34:21. > :34:26.to remain silent and keep government policies. Many dead letter to keep

:34:27. > :34:32.out -- speak out for fear of inviting other unwelcome sanctions.

:34:33. > :34:35.The lobbying legislation looks to many in the sector too much like

:34:36. > :34:38.another deliberate and shameless act by a government too scared to debate

:34:39. > :34:43.the record be open to scrutiny and challenge. The health of our

:34:44. > :34:47.democracy depends on the right to campaign on issues people care

:34:48. > :34:52.about. Lobbying act was an attack on our democracy, limit the rights of

:34:53. > :34:56.the charities who for causes. It is a left expert organisations to have

:34:57. > :34:59.a vital contribution to public debate is unsure whether they are

:35:00. > :35:03.allowed to speak out. We seek the right to protect these charities to

:35:04. > :35:08.have a right to speak in our democracy and I commend this clause

:35:09. > :35:13.to the House. New clause, appeals and applications to the tribunal.

:35:14. > :35:18.The question is a new clause one B read a second time. Thank you very

:35:19. > :35:25.much. I congratulate the honourable lady, if this was her first speech

:35:26. > :36:46.from the dispatch box in a report stage of a bill. She

:36:47. > :36:53.I visited 65 of the 145 prisons and secure training units through

:36:54. > :37:00.England and Wales. It became apparent to me, it was not a new

:37:01. > :37:06.idea, others had discovered this before. I discovered that one of the

:37:07. > :37:11.things that contributed to the high levels of reoffending among those

:37:12. > :37:16.people sent to prison and coming out again, particularly youngsters, is

:37:17. > :37:22.that they do not have a job, they don't have somewhere settled to

:37:23. > :37:30.stay, and they have, to put it loosely, relationship problems. If

:37:31. > :37:32.you can do anything to help people sustained strong and stable

:37:33. > :37:36.relationships with their family and partners, fine then somewhere stable

:37:37. > :37:50.to stay and live, help them get training or work, then the chances

:37:51. > :37:59.are that they will not reoffend and get back to prison. The discovery I

:38:00. > :38:05.went on from 2005 or so, until I was appointed Shadow Attorney General in

:38:06. > :38:13.2009, I wrote a paper called prisons with a purpose, which the current

:38:14. > :38:18.circuit area for justice -- which the current Secretary of State for

:38:19. > :38:24.Justice, I hope is picking up many of the ideas that I and my right

:38:25. > :38:28.honourable friend, the member for Arendell, pushed forward in

:38:29. > :38:35.opposition. It is not a surprise that I have become attached to the

:38:36. > :38:41.Prison Reform Trust, and Unlocked. What I want to do, in moving my

:38:42. > :38:44.amendment, which is long and set out on page five of the amendment paper

:38:45. > :38:50.is to invite the gunmen to have a little think about the

:38:51. > :38:55.disqualification, all way that procedure that applies to people

:38:56. > :39:00.with criminal records. Either insofar as they may be trustees of

:39:01. > :39:06.charities, which have an interest in looking after ex-offenders, all in

:39:07. > :39:09.so far as it relates to the employment of people with criminal

:39:10. > :40:06.records by those charities. The purpose of this amendment is to

:40:07. > :40:09.require the Secretary of State to put forward a report on the

:40:10. > :40:13.disqualification of framework of people with chronic records who are

:40:14. > :40:18.trustees are employed by charities, charities that work with an employee

:40:19. > :40:24.ex-offenders. That is to say, clause nine of the bill, as it is Hans,

:40:25. > :40:27.comes into force. What I am intending to do, is to urge the

:40:28. > :40:32.government to provide us with further clarification of the impact

:40:33. > :40:36.of the extension of the disqualification framework, of

:40:37. > :40:40.people with criminal records, charities that employ ex-offenders.

:40:41. > :40:47.It provides an opportunity for the Minister to outline in more detail

:40:48. > :40:49.how he and his Department intends to conduct the reviewing process, to

:40:50. > :40:57.ensure that people with cruel records who are charity trustees or

:40:58. > :41:00.who are seeking or intending to seek employment or trusteeship in a

:41:01. > :41:07.charity are not unfairly discriminated against. Clause nine

:41:08. > :41:12.of the bill, and the policy behind it, is entirely worthy, and

:41:13. > :41:19.understandable. We clearly do not want people engaged in terrorism

:41:20. > :41:32.using charities to move money around or in gauging their venous

:41:33. > :41:46.behaviour. -- or engaging in heinous behaviour. If one looks at clause

:41:47. > :41:50.nine, for example, will we can see someone who comes within part one of

:41:51. > :41:56.the terrorist asset freezing act of 2010, or the Al-Qaeda asset freezing

:41:57. > :42:01.regulations of 2011, one only has to read part of sub-clause five of the

:42:02. > :42:08.bill, to realise they are not people we want involved in charities. That

:42:09. > :42:13.is not a problem. What I am concerned about is the unintended

:42:14. > :42:22.consequence of this perfectly understandable and worthwhile

:42:23. > :42:27.clause. A number of the revisions of clause nine are direct threat to

:42:28. > :42:33.charities who employ people with criminal records. Many of those who

:42:34. > :42:38.include people in cruel records, and at the heart of the voluntary

:42:39. > :42:42.sector, is the principal of working with service users, rather than

:42:43. > :42:46.doing things to them. An old cliche, the government should do things for

:42:47. > :42:54.people rather to them. Legislation should allow charities to do things

:42:55. > :42:59.for people, rather to them. I hope that with a bit of time, and further

:43:00. > :43:03.thought and discussion with the charities that I am interested in,

:43:04. > :43:11.and others as well, the gunmen can come up with a plan which does not

:43:12. > :43:13.have consequences. This is particularly important, with people

:43:14. > :43:21.in the criminal trusted system. Perhaps more so than running any

:43:22. > :43:27.other aspect of charitable work. Any unnecessary barriers to recruitment

:43:28. > :43:36.of people is very likely to be a threat to the core mission of that

:43:37. > :43:42.sector. Unlock, the charity which I am the patron of, and the Prison

:43:43. > :43:46.Reform Trust, which I am a trustee of, and other charities in the

:43:47. > :43:51.sector, submitted evidence to the public bill committee, and concerns

:43:52. > :43:56.were raised by honourable members in the committee stage of the bill.

:43:57. > :44:00.During the debate my right honourable friend, the member for

:44:01. > :44:05.Ridley East concerned that charities would be given latest of 6-12 months

:44:06. > :44:14.before the new provisions in clause nine came into force will stop the

:44:15. > :44:20.-- came into force. The Charity Commission would conduct reform.

:44:21. > :44:24.They would not be given any additional resources when it came to

:44:25. > :44:29.waiver application and the application of the reform framework.

:44:30. > :44:36.The experience of charities in this area public policy, that is to say

:44:37. > :44:42.of the existing waiver process, and based on the fact that no additional

:44:43. > :44:46.resource will be provided to the Charity Commission they are

:44:47. > :44:51.concerned that six months is not enough time to prepare themselves

:44:52. > :44:55.for the new framework. If my honourable friend the Minister gives

:44:56. > :45:03.me some sort of indication in the winding up of the debate, if at

:45:04. > :45:14.least ten months could be the time frame, that the B assistance to me.

:45:15. > :45:18.Six months is not even enough for the Charity Commission itself to

:45:19. > :45:25.conduct a thorough review. All the issue waivers to existing trustees

:45:26. > :45:31.and employees who qualify under section 181 of the charities act of

:45:32. > :45:37.2011. People having to resign as a consequence, having to work to an

:45:38. > :45:46.unrealistic timescale. At the very least they would urge the government

:45:47. > :45:50.to apply a minimum 12 months for the Charity Commission to conduct a full

:45:51. > :45:56.review of the waiver process. I know that 6-12 months is a very different

:45:57. > :46:01.figure from 12 months and more, but I think in the circumstances that my

:46:02. > :46:08.honourable friend for the city of Westminster and London mentioned,

:46:09. > :46:14.the 400 years old history of charities law, going back to

:46:15. > :46:27.Elizabeth I, the active 1462, he is the expert? I think we both know

:46:28. > :46:32.more about Roman law then trust law, but I believe it was 1602. And the

:46:33. > :46:36.time of James the first when charitable heads came into play. Not

:46:37. > :46:40.unimportant, there has been a lot of radical change recently, which has

:46:41. > :46:44.upset the very essence of what charities should be about. As my

:46:45. > :46:51.honourable friend pointed out earlier on. Clearly I need to take

:46:52. > :46:56.my honourable friend along with me, particularly when I'm speaking at

:46:57. > :47:04.the Conservative Club, just the chap they want to hear from. To return to

:47:05. > :47:12.the serious point we are discussing, a longer period of, to enable the

:47:13. > :47:17.charity world and the commission, and the government itself to work

:47:18. > :47:24.out how best to move forward with these clause nine provisions, would

:47:25. > :47:33.be to the vantage of all. Enabling us to get rid of any glitches, to

:47:34. > :47:42.the cap for any traps lying for the unwary. My honourable friend was

:47:43. > :47:52.very kind, he met me on Tuesday, the 19th of January, if that was a

:47:53. > :47:58.Tuesday, that is when he met me. In his Department, with his officials.

:47:59. > :48:06.Came across to me, he was in listening mode. That the government

:48:07. > :48:12.is very likely to move towards me to some extent. If they do, that would

:48:13. > :48:16.be very helpful. If he was the saviours in this House, the be very

:48:17. > :48:25.helpful, allowing me to do as I promised, not to move my amendment,

:48:26. > :48:28.to try to produce clarity and better legislation. If we can do that in

:48:29. > :48:43.partnership together, everybody I Could very briefly just touch upon

:48:44. > :48:51.a number of subclauses in my amendment. There are 11 areas which

:48:52. > :48:58.are specified in the amendment I have put forward. And I appreciate

:48:59. > :49:03.the government has put forward its own amendment three, which to some,

:49:04. > :49:10.but limited extent, alleviates some of the concerns I had. To be honest

:49:11. > :49:14.to my honourable friend, the minister, the government will have

:49:15. > :49:20.to go further than amendment three if all of the concerns that the

:49:21. > :49:27.charities that I speak for or have some connection with, are not to

:49:28. > :49:31.have the worries continued. The sub-clause deals with the first

:49:32. > :49:35.problem area, that's to say the number of people employed by

:49:36. > :49:37.charities will be affected by the extension of disqualification

:49:38. > :49:43.framework to cover senior management. For reasons of time

:49:44. > :49:56.only, I will not set out extensively, the argument that

:49:57. > :50:13.I do urge the government to do a little bit of work to see how many

:50:14. > :50:19.people employed by charities will be affected by the extension of

:50:20. > :50:27.disqualification framework, insofar as it relates to senior management

:50:28. > :50:30.positions. Similarly, sub-clause B, the number of employees who will be

:50:31. > :50:36.affected by the extension of the list. Lees, will the government have

:50:37. > :50:41.think about this and see it is not just a whinge from a trustee of the

:50:42. > :50:47.Prison Reform Trust, but it is an issue that needs to be thought about

:50:48. > :50:52.and the impact of the clause nine provisions need to be considered, in

:50:53. > :50:56.cooperation with the charities, in cooperation with the Charity

:50:57. > :51:01.commission, so we get it right for the long-term. I will give one

:51:02. > :51:15.example in relation to sub-clause B, which relates to a glitch caused by

:51:16. > :51:21.a failure, an unwitting failure to consider the rehabilitation of

:51:22. > :51:32.offenders act 1974, as reformed in 2014. Under the 2014 amendment, to

:51:33. > :51:39.the 1974 act, rehabilitation for convicted persons was reduced. I

:51:40. > :51:43.will give you the example of an individual convicted of sexual

:51:44. > :51:47.assault and sentenced to three years in prison. Assuming the individual

:51:48. > :51:50.doesn't reoffend, the conviction will be spent seven years after the

:51:51. > :51:55.end of the sentence. However, they will remain subject to the

:51:56. > :52:01.notification requirements indefinitely with a right to review

:52:02. > :52:06.after 15 years. Under the proposals of the bill as currently drafted,

:52:07. > :52:12.that individual would be automatically disqualified for being

:52:13. > :52:19.a trustee for 15 15 years and potentially for the rest of their

:52:20. > :52:23.life. But under the 1974 act, if they remain conviction free for a

:52:24. > :52:27.defined period of time, they are legally recognised as being

:52:28. > :52:31.rehabilitated. It is a discrete example where the government and the

:52:32. > :52:36.Charity commission and the charity sector needs to get together to see

:52:37. > :52:42.how best to move forward. Sadly, the impact of the new disqualification

:52:43. > :52:49.who intend to speak employment in the charitable sector including the

:52:50. > :52:55.recruitment and rehabilitation resettlement. I made this point in

:52:56. > :53:03.General at the outset of my remarks. The one thing we need to concentrate

:53:04. > :53:06.on, as people interested is to get people back to work and get people

:53:07. > :53:12.into work. Many people in prison have never been to work, equivalent

:53:13. > :53:16.to get them back to work or into work we need to reduce the barriers

:53:17. > :53:22.for them sensibly we can. The fourth point is the impact of the new

:53:23. > :53:29.framework on offenders currently employed in the charitable sector.

:53:30. > :53:42.It is the same point, but a different shade, if you like, of the

:53:43. > :53:55.point in sub-clause C. Sub-clause E deals with former offenders running

:53:56. > :54:01.organisations. Under the Coalition Government in the last Parliament,

:54:02. > :54:06.rehabilitation companies have been set up and they are contracting with

:54:07. > :54:13.charities to deliver rehabilitation and Bashan services. It would be a

:54:14. > :54:20.pity if the good policy behind that were undermined by making it much

:54:21. > :54:28.more difficult for ex-offenders to work with more recent offenders in

:54:29. > :54:37.order to rehabilitate them. So collectively we need to think very

:54:38. > :54:44.carefully about that. Sub-clause F deals with the process the section

:54:45. > :55:03.181 of the charities act. In the last six years, the Charity

:55:04. > :55:11.commission only processed six waiver applications and the government

:55:12. > :55:15.suggested it shows ineffective in granting waivers. This fails to

:55:16. > :55:17.recognise the low number of waiver applications compared with trusty

:55:18. > :55:28.applications and the number of people with unspent convictions. I

:55:29. > :55:32.hope this becomes clear to the government. The charities I speak

:55:33. > :55:39.for and the Charity commission and the administered need to sit round

:55:40. > :55:42.the table and talk about how best to deal with that and six to 12 months

:55:43. > :55:49.isn't long enough for that to be achieved. Sub-clause G deals with

:55:50. > :55:52.the number of applications of waivers to the Charity commission.

:55:53. > :55:56.It must follow the extent of disqualification framework is highly

:55:57. > :56:01.unlikely to increase the number of waiver applications. Not just as a

:56:02. > :56:05.result of the extensions, but as a result of increased awareness of the

:56:06. > :56:09.framework that will flow from the production guide and general

:56:10. > :56:13.awareness rating. The government has not provided any assessment of a

:56:14. > :56:18.likely increase in waiver applications as a result of the

:56:19. > :56:22.application to the disqualification framework. More troubling is the

:56:23. > :56:28.government has also confirmed through the Minister, no additional

:56:29. > :56:31.resources will be provided to administer the waiver application

:56:32. > :56:37.process. So it will slow down and become more sporadic. I have not,

:56:38. > :56:45.but let's discuss it and ensure we iron out that problem in advance.

:56:46. > :56:51.Sub-clause H deals with how the working group set up by the Charity

:56:52. > :56:55.commission on the waiver processable because to tutored. How it will be

:56:56. > :57:01.resourced, the timelines it is working to, intended output and how

:57:02. > :57:06.it all work in consultation with people criminal records and

:57:07. > :57:10.charities that do with people like ex-offenders. Unlock has received a

:57:11. > :57:14.contact from the charity commission from the internal working group.

:57:15. > :57:22.Specific details of the nature of the remain unclear.

:57:23. > :57:29.We would be grateful for further clarification from the government

:57:30. > :57:31.hoped the review will be resourced with timelines and so on. As I said

:57:32. > :57:35.before at the very least we would before at the very least we would

:57:36. > :57:41.urge the government to guarantee more than 12 months notice from the

:57:42. > :57:46.charities to be able to prepare themselves for the new framework.

:57:47. > :57:51.Little I deals with the criteria the Little I deals with the criteria the

:57:52. > :57:57.Charity commission will adopt in view of the trustees are the charity

:57:58. > :58:01.concerned. As I understand that their direct experience in the

:58:02. > :58:09.support they have provided to other organisations shows that process to

:58:10. > :58:17.be inadequate. To ensure that the processes they and chance band --

:58:18. > :58:20.that the process is fair and transparent, weight it should be

:58:21. > :58:24.given to the trustees of the charity concerned and this is something that

:58:25. > :58:32.I am sure can be sorted out around the table by the Minister and his

:58:33. > :58:42.officials and his interlocutors. J deals with how the waiver process

:58:43. > :58:49.while operate in regard to senior candidates and make sure that

:58:50. > :58:58.offenders do not suffer discrimination through delays while

:58:59. > :59:02.the process of waivers is under way. Currently the backlog of the

:59:03. > :59:08.enhanced disclosure and similar applications being processed at the

:59:09. > :59:13.Metropolitan Police leads to an average turnaround time of 75 days

:59:14. > :59:20.which means that people applying for jobs who have criminal records or

:59:21. > :59:23.have spent criminal records, are suffering a form of indirect

:59:24. > :59:28.dissemination as a consequence of these delays. So again another point

:59:29. > :59:35.where we only to sit around and work out how to solve the problem. And

:59:36. > :59:42.finally sub-clause K, the impact of the new disco station for the back

:59:43. > :59:49.framework -- the new disqualification framework. People

:59:50. > :59:55.interested in public policy are some speeds of any argument given to

:59:56. > :00:02.money. -- at some stage of any argument. The charities act pinched

:00:03. > :00:05.for money and certainly the applicants for trusty ships are jobs

:00:06. > :00:12.in senior management within the charities are unlikely unless there

:00:13. > :00:18.highly successful ex-offenders are unlikely to have the money. We need

:00:19. > :00:23.to work out how we make this a efficient and economic as possible.

:00:24. > :00:30.There we have it. I apologise for detaining the House for as long as I

:00:31. > :00:33.have. I think it is very important that epidemic of the concerns of the

:00:34. > :00:38.charities involved in the criminal justice sector dealing with reform

:00:39. > :00:43.and rehabilitation of offenders. To use this opportunity can buy the

:00:44. > :00:54.government through the Minister to extend the consultation at least 12

:00:55. > :00:56.months and to invite him to have further meetings with the charities

:00:57. > :01:01.concerned so that these glitches can be ironed out. I should finally say

:01:02. > :01:06.that Mr William Shawcross, the chairman of the charities

:01:07. > :01:11.commission, very kindly telephone me yesterday and offered the hand of

:01:12. > :01:16.friendship and make him and his staff available to me and those for

:01:17. > :01:21.whom I speak today. So there are avenues we can look at. The Minister

:01:22. > :01:25.has already been very open and Mr Shawcross has now been very open to

:01:26. > :01:30.me so I do hope in the spirit of cooperation the Minister will be

:01:31. > :01:35.able to give me which enable me to go back to Unlock and go back to the

:01:36. > :01:38.prison reform service and so this is a listing government and are

:01:39. > :01:41.thinking government who once introduced legislation which works

:01:42. > :01:49.for the and we can collectively designed for the public benefit. I'm

:01:50. > :01:54.grateful for the opportunity to speak in the debate this afternoon

:01:55. > :01:58.and to reaffirm some of the concerns that were expressed during the Bill

:01:59. > :02:02.committee. I still do not believe these concerns have been addressed

:02:03. > :02:07.but these amendments put forward by my honourable friend, the member for

:02:08. > :02:11.Redcar, certainly would address. I have had a long association with a

:02:12. > :02:16.number of different charities, both in a professional context as a

:02:17. > :02:23.member of staff, as a volunteer, and as a donor, whether that is regular

:02:24. > :02:26.standing order or money in the ten. Going back to some of the comments

:02:27. > :02:30.were made earlier on in this debate, I think people do know you're

:02:31. > :02:33.setting up to when they are supporting charities, whether it is

:02:34. > :02:36.their campaigning effectiveness of the charity other direct work they

:02:37. > :02:40.do with beneficiaries. I think we ought to use the opportunity of this

:02:41. > :02:45.bill to also preach a bid to the remarkable work that our large and

:02:46. > :02:50.diverse voluntary sector does, from the very largest of charities to the

:02:51. > :02:56.very smallest of charities and in my constituency of Ilford North we see

:02:57. > :03:03.a variety of Barnardo to smaller branches such as the Barkingside

:03:04. > :03:07.branch of the Royal British Legion such as the charities such as Hopes

:03:08. > :03:10.and can my dreams which was set up by volunteers to help children with

:03:11. > :03:16.life-threatening life limiting conditions to enjoy experiences that

:03:17. > :03:21.would enrich their lives at a particularly difficult moment for

:03:22. > :03:25.them and further families. These are remarkable people doing remarkable

:03:26. > :03:30.work and it is a source of disappointment to me that the

:03:31. > :03:32.voluntary sector often ends up particularly in recent times in the

:03:33. > :03:39.headlines for the wrong reasons for what I would describe as the

:03:40. > :03:42.misdemeanours of the few, however large and significant they may

:03:43. > :03:47.occasionally be. That also the unnecessary condemnation of far too

:03:48. > :03:50.many. That does seem to be some intemperate language used by members

:03:51. > :03:55.of the size and others through the pages of the media to bash at

:03:56. > :03:59.charity sector in this country which I think does a remarkable amount of

:04:00. > :04:04.good and should be cherished and celebrated rather than derided and

:04:05. > :04:12.denigrated. I am concerned as my honourable friend set out in her

:04:13. > :04:15.speech for the opposition that the warnings mechanism which provided

:04:16. > :04:20.for in this legislation does not carry right of appeal. I know from

:04:21. > :04:23.my own point of view is a former Chief Executive charity that by

:04:24. > :04:25.fiver to receive a warning on the Charity commission for any aspect of

:04:26. > :04:30.our work it is something I would take very seriously and I would

:04:31. > :04:35.expect trustees to take very seriously and yet we hear from the

:04:36. > :04:40.committee stage in the report stage debate today that the Charity

:04:41. > :04:49.commission May issue warnings for what are relatively minor, I even

:04:50. > :04:59.hesitate to use the word, fences, are infringing sins of guidance is.

:05:00. > :05:06.-- infringements of guidance is. We do expect charities to hold up the

:05:07. > :05:11.letter of the lot but that is also I do not think we should be slapping

:05:12. > :05:14.warnings and charities for falling short of best practice with a more

:05:15. > :05:17.informal warning might end up with a better outcome. I'm also

:05:18. > :05:24.particularly welcoming the new clause which deals with the disposal

:05:25. > :05:31.of assets in the committee stage of the bill we talked about the origins

:05:32. > :05:40.of some of the government was my proposals around what might be

:05:41. > :05:44.described as disposal of assets that we would talk about seizure of

:05:45. > :05:47.assets particularly regarding the government proposals around housing

:05:48. > :05:50.associations and the right to buy. I'm happy we have reached a stage in

:05:51. > :05:54.the housing debate where housing associations and the government have

:05:55. > :05:59.been able to move forward on the basis of agreement. But I do not

:06:00. > :06:03.think we should be in any doubt whatsoever about how the government

:06:04. > :06:06.reach that position and it was not through negotiation are evidence

:06:07. > :06:13.based admin. It was through threats and bullying and cajoling of Housing

:06:14. > :06:20.associations. There was the threat of that if they did not comply with

:06:21. > :06:23.the comical right by, the government would simply legislate for it and

:06:24. > :06:31.that would go against their very essence of the act we referred to

:06:32. > :06:39.earlier, the charitable uses act. It was in 1601. I would not people to

:06:40. > :06:45.review the record and find that they were inadvertently misled on this

:06:46. > :06:59.issue. I certainly will give way to the Right honourable gentleman. What

:07:00. > :07:07.kind invitation and worthy Conservative majority -- whether

:07:08. > :07:15.Conservative majority different in market Harborough I would be happy

:07:16. > :07:21.to visit. Going back to the charitable uses act of 1601 there

:07:22. > :07:25.has been long history of bequests and nations legacies given to

:07:26. > :07:31.charities really ought to be given to the use that the donor intended.

:07:32. > :07:35.And I think what my honourable friend sets out in the new clause

:07:36. > :07:41.certainly would give people the confidence that they can donate to

:07:42. > :07:45.charities or make requested charities knowing full well that

:07:46. > :07:49.independent charities would not be compelled to use disposable assets

:07:50. > :07:53.in a way which is inconsistent with the charitable purposes and so I

:07:54. > :07:57.strongly endorse the new clause to and I am back to see my honourable

:07:58. > :08:01.friend is aborted before was for discussion this afternoon. The final

:08:02. > :08:07.area I really wanted to focus on is this issue of campaigning which I

:08:08. > :08:13.feel very strongly about as someone who has been the charity campaigner

:08:14. > :08:17.both professionally and voluntary contribution to the work of

:08:18. > :08:23.charities. As I said in the intervention when I intervened on my

:08:24. > :08:27.honourable friend, the member for Redcar, I'm still at a loss to

:08:28. > :08:31.understand the problem that the gagging law was trying to solve.

:08:32. > :08:38.Charity commission guidance as was been clear that you cannot campaign

:08:39. > :08:41.for party political purposes or as certainly use charitable funds of

:08:42. > :08:45.party political campaigning and so it would be completely unlawful for

:08:46. > :08:52.the charity to see around the general election, we completely

:08:53. > :08:55.disagree with the Conservative Party policy on X and their father would

:08:56. > :09:01.encourage you to vote for one of the other parties are to say that the

:09:02. > :09:04.Labour Party policy on why is inconsistent with the views of the

:09:05. > :09:09.charity and therefore you should thought for another political party.

:09:10. > :09:15.What has always been perfectly in order, and I would argue desirable,

:09:16. > :09:19.is for charities to be an effective voice for civil society. And to make

:09:20. > :09:25.sure that when policy is up for debate, with a jury deliberations on

:09:26. > :09:27.the size one of the double parliaments and assemblies, our

:09:28. > :09:31.local authorities up another country, that they are able to

:09:32. > :09:36.gather their wisdom and experience, the evidence based at the gallery

:09:37. > :09:39.through desk research or omission research and more often than not

:09:40. > :09:43.that direct experience of working with the beneficiaries, and make

:09:44. > :09:47.sure the decision-makers are well-informed. I think that is a

:09:48. > :09:53.real benefit to our democracy. I'm afraid that the cries we have heard

:09:54. > :10:03.from the benches opposite, this is not had a chilling effect, this is

:10:04. > :10:06.simply untrue and unfounded. Where the Conservative Party is usually

:10:07. > :10:09.found in this chamber adding against red tape, the gagging order sad and

:10:10. > :10:14.in the opposite effect and I'm aware of charities back to the last

:10:15. > :10:17.general election where the campaigners and finance officers

:10:18. > :10:20.were sad that the spreadsheet is trying to calculate whether

:10:21. > :10:23.something would be a constituency spend a national spend, whether our

:10:24. > :10:27.collaboration with other charity partners would be workable within

:10:28. > :10:33.the law, where spending would be apportioned. I'm afraid that the

:10:34. > :10:36.provisions of the gagging law have brought real burdens, unnecessary

:10:37. > :10:39.burdens for charities. People are concerned about her charities are

:10:40. > :10:43.spending their money, they should will be concerned about the amount

:10:44. > :10:47.of time and money the charities might spend complying with

:10:48. > :10:51.unnecessary government regulation than the should ever be regulated

:10:52. > :11:01.concerned about for the charities ascending briefings -- ascending

:11:02. > :11:08.briefings to government. -- are sending. It does stick in the throat

:11:09. > :11:12.that lots of members of Parliament are very happy at their party

:11:13. > :11:15.political conferences are out of the constituencies to turn up for the

:11:16. > :11:22.photo opportunities with the guide dogs and the children at a local

:11:23. > :11:25.youth club or an animal rights charity and going along and seeing

:11:26. > :11:29.all the great work they do initial press release and join them the

:11:30. > :11:33.photographs but when the charity 's comeback to talk about the impact of

:11:34. > :11:38.their voting record or public policy that they have supported or might

:11:39. > :11:44.consider supporting, sadly this is considered a huge inconvenience or

:11:45. > :11:53.even worse, people would argue that this is a legal. I think the gagging

:11:54. > :11:57.law has had a chilling effect and has generated red tape and I think

:11:58. > :12:02.we should be honest about the fact that this lot which was passed under

:12:03. > :12:07.a Coalition Government with the Liberals and government was designed

:12:08. > :12:15.to serve the interests of the Liberal party and they were

:12:16. > :12:22.concerned that enough of them -- and none of them are here, that it is

:12:23. > :12:25.disappointing and the Liberal Democrat party, because many of

:12:26. > :12:29.their MPs had been silly enough to sign up to a pledge and then break

:12:30. > :12:32.it on the issue of tuition fees, were then worried there would be

:12:33. > :12:49.accountability at the subsequent election.

:12:50. > :12:53.As one of the Parliamentary candidates who campaigned on that

:12:54. > :12:59.issue, we are capable of doing that ourselves. It was a legitimate thing

:13:00. > :13:03.for student unions to approach the last general election and talk about

:13:04. > :13:08.the policy platforms parties put on offer, but also the record of the

:13:09. > :13:13.incumbent. Sometimes the laws we pass in this place tend to be more

:13:14. > :13:19.self-serving than serving the public interest and I think the voluntary

:13:20. > :13:23.sector has a powerful role to play in speaking up, not just for the

:13:24. > :13:29.broad set of beneficiaries the volunteer sector served, but

:13:30. > :13:32.thinking about the character of the volunteer sector in the United

:13:33. > :13:37.Kingdom, it is important those charities work with some of the most

:13:38. > :13:43.marginalised and disadvantaged in our society, have the freedom and

:13:44. > :13:45.encouragement to speak up for the beneficiaries. Because, it is the

:13:46. > :13:54.case and we see it sometimes in our surgeries, on the campaign trail,

:13:55. > :13:58.the hustings, and the corridors of this place, that they are not filled

:13:59. > :14:05.with the people who have the most to gain or lose in the change in public

:14:06. > :14:09.policy. Often people suffering from homelessness, drug abuse, abject

:14:10. > :14:13.policy, child abuse or other forms of abuse or ill-health, they are not

:14:14. > :14:18.the people with either the freedom of the funding to make their voices

:14:19. > :14:21.heard in this place as they should. That is why those charities who work

:14:22. > :14:26.with those people, have such a powerful role to play to create a

:14:27. > :14:30.more civilised politics in a more civilised country. For that reason I

:14:31. > :14:35.think the power to make representations in new clause three,

:14:36. > :14:43.provides absolute clarity with charities, and we encourage. I will

:14:44. > :14:47.certainly be supporting it. But in closing, Madam Deputy Speaker, I

:14:48. > :14:54.think these are points we have made in the committee. See if the

:14:55. > :14:57.Minister this afternoon is persuaded to accept our amendments, I hope he

:14:58. > :15:03.does. But I have people who have been following this debate are in no

:15:04. > :15:06.doubt, that for all of the bad headlines the voluntary sector

:15:07. > :15:10.receives, there are a great many others in this place who cherish the

:15:11. > :15:19.work of vibrance and powerful voluntary sector does. Mark Field.

:15:20. > :15:24.Thank you, it is a pleasure to speak after the honourable gentleman from

:15:25. > :15:28.Ilford North. One thing I have in common with him is a great love of

:15:29. > :15:34.London as a whole and I love walking through London. It was only this

:15:35. > :15:44.summer I went to Barkingside for the first time. You go through the hand

:15:45. > :15:49.it becomes clear how important Barnardos was. You see the new

:15:50. > :15:52.housing development on the site, it will make a big impact with social

:15:53. > :15:58.housing and possibly private housing, I suspect, to help fund it,

:15:59. > :16:03.but nonetheless it will be an asset in the community he represents. Can

:16:04. > :16:06.I thank the honourable lady from Redcar speaking from the front

:16:07. > :16:12.bench. I remember about ten years ago I had a similar instance in

:16:13. > :16:18.opposition speaking on the National Lottery Bill. I had a set of

:16:19. > :16:23.amendments I thought the House would surely take on board. Why shouldn't

:16:24. > :16:28.try to disappoint her too early on, but I suspect she may not get her

:16:29. > :16:35.own way in the way she hopes. But both the members from the 2015

:16:36. > :16:42.intakes spoke very well. The sympathy I have the hair as a new MP

:16:43. > :16:47.getting involved in a major issue in Redcar in relation to the steel

:16:48. > :16:55.industry, we have a huge amount of 74 and having to negotiate that as a

:16:56. > :17:02.local MP, must be difficult. I have some sympathy with some of what the

:17:03. > :17:06.honourable lady said despite the fierce exchanges we had earlier on.

:17:07. > :17:12.I fear it is almost axiomatic in public life, such as organisations

:17:13. > :17:18.like the Charity commission set up and granted burgeoning budgets and

:17:19. > :17:23.stuffing, they see the mission is expanding the Empire of influence.

:17:24. > :17:27.This bill has been an example of the operation of such tactics. Problems

:17:28. > :17:32.have been identified that have been addressed and largely solved either

:17:33. > :17:37.passion, commitment and the graft of volunteers, quietly and often

:17:38. > :17:43.formally and unpaid, working in their communities. An example, the

:17:44. > :17:48.extent of local charitable activities of these independent

:17:49. > :17:53.schools have been transformed over the past decade. Rather than

:17:54. > :17:56.welcoming, heralding and trumpeting the success of the big society,

:17:57. > :18:01.which is what I think this represents, we risk promoting big

:18:02. > :18:06.bureaucracy in the shape of the Charity commission. I very much hope

:18:07. > :18:14.today that whilst we resist the amendments set out in this

:18:15. > :18:17.legislation. I want to take the House on a journey. A very short

:18:18. > :18:24.journey within a stone 's throw or two... I will give way to the

:18:25. > :18:27.honourable gentleman. Does he claimed the greatest triumph of the

:18:28. > :18:39.big society was the work of its poster girl, with the kids's

:18:40. > :18:46.society? I believe it is called Kids Company. She worked with a number of

:18:47. > :18:53.politicians and there are issues that should be addressed by select

:18:54. > :18:59.Mitty is and others with what happened about that. But I would

:19:00. > :19:03.like to go on a journey to the sites in Tot Hill Street whether Harris

:19:04. > :19:10.Westminster Sixth Form centre stands. Since 2014, this academy has

:19:11. > :19:14.been a focus for substantial collaboration and cooperation with

:19:15. > :19:18.metal Westminster School, one of the older school foundations in this

:19:19. > :19:24.country, which is close at hand in Westminster Abbey. That includes the

:19:25. > :19:29.teaching of classes with small intakes in subjects such as Latin,

:19:30. > :19:32.Greek and German. For over a decade, the school have offered science

:19:33. > :19:37.outreach and summer school partnerships to several local

:19:38. > :19:42.maintained schools. As the local MP over the past 15 years, and an

:19:43. > :19:47.erstwhile president of the St Andrews youth club, the oldest youth

:19:48. > :19:52.club, which played an important role in the local community with people

:19:53. > :19:58.living in social housing and being a magnet for young boys and girls.

:19:59. > :20:02.Initially it was boys in the 1860s, but girls in more recent times, both

:20:03. > :20:07.come from the Westminster area but also from south of the river as

:20:08. > :20:10.well. I was well aware when the club lost funding from the local

:20:11. > :20:18.authority, it was Westminster School that stepped in providing cash and

:20:19. > :20:19.gym apparatus. I suspect there are scores of other local charitable

:20:20. > :20:25.organisations that could tell similar stories about the time,

:20:26. > :20:33.money and equipment donated by the local school. Charitable status

:20:34. > :20:38.rightly depends on what the charity in question is established to do.

:20:39. > :20:43.Rather than, in my view, the Charity commission's subjective analysis of

:20:44. > :20:46.public benefit. This is what I agree with some of the thrust we have seen

:20:47. > :20:55.from the other side of the House. Was we always agree charitable

:20:56. > :20:59.status confers financial benefits, the Charity commission is not the

:21:00. > :21:01.appropriate means in prescribing how independent schools and other

:21:02. > :21:08.organisations that have been referred to, should satisfy this

:21:09. > :21:10.public benefit test. It appears for party political reasons, independent

:21:11. > :21:16.schools, rather than other charitable bodies, are in the site

:21:17. > :21:22.of not just other MPs, but leading lights in the Charity commission.

:21:23. > :21:25.Surely a more sensible approach, one that would avoid any accusation of

:21:26. > :21:31.political and in particular party political bias, would it worked on

:21:32. > :21:36.some non-statutory guidance to those organisations about the anticipated

:21:37. > :21:40.nature of public benefit engagement. I think we should also recognise

:21:41. > :21:45.many independent schools do not have the capacity, or the financial

:21:46. > :21:51.resources to sponsor academies. Some lack playing fields, drama, art and

:21:52. > :21:57.music facilities that appear to be normal in private schools. There is

:21:58. > :22:01.plenty of cooperation and sharing between independence and nearby

:22:02. > :22:04.maintained schools. Healthy, informal co-operation which stands

:22:05. > :22:08.to be undermined by any proposal to define levels of contribution or

:22:09. > :22:14.extend the public benefit as we understood it in the past. It is

:22:15. > :22:18.worth stating it takes two to tango. There is little independence tools

:22:19. > :22:24.can do if the state school nearby refuses an offer to work together.

:22:25. > :22:27.It is important to place burdens of this proposed if the independent

:22:28. > :22:32.school in question doesn't have the ability to achieve the Charity

:22:33. > :22:37.Commissioner's objectives. I don't want to detain the House for too

:22:38. > :22:41.long, but it has been an interesting debate here. In truth, I share some

:22:42. > :22:44.of the concerns that have been expressed on the other side of the

:22:45. > :22:49.House that some of this legislation is purporting to solve problems many

:22:50. > :22:54.have by charitable organisations and independent schools, that they would

:22:55. > :22:59.feel they have by their own efforts, done much over the years to

:23:00. > :23:03.alleviate. Indeed, some of what is set out in this bill has worrying

:23:04. > :23:08.assumptions that underline an outdated sense of groupthink that

:23:09. > :23:12.the sets the Charity commission. Nevertheless, I hope that with its

:23:13. > :23:17.wisdom, the House will reject some of the amendments, particularly new

:23:18. > :23:22.clauses two and three, if it comes to a vote, feeling I trust my

:23:23. > :23:32.friends, the government whips will achieve the same ends. Thank you. I

:23:33. > :23:39.hope I don't keep the House the too long. I want to congratulate the

:23:40. > :23:44.member that the Cities of London and Westminster mentioning James the

:23:45. > :23:53.sixth, given the fact the only charitable organisation that still

:23:54. > :23:59.exists from his period of rain is Scotcare, based here in London and

:24:00. > :24:01.doing fantastic work. Highlights and concerns have been raised in

:24:02. > :24:07.Scotland at the possible impact that may occur due to the myriad of

:24:08. > :24:11.issues relating to the governance of charities across these islands, and

:24:12. > :24:13.I'm sure that are shared by members of Northern Ireland as well as

:24:14. > :24:17.Scotland about these concerns. Just to highlight an issue raised by the

:24:18. > :24:21.member the Cities of London and Westminster about burgeoning budgets

:24:22. > :24:30.in the Charity commission. The budget has been cut by 48% between

:24:31. > :24:35.2007 and 2015. So let's scotch that myth straightaway. Nobody should be

:24:36. > :24:40.in any date in the space of the last 18 months, the Civic Society has

:24:41. > :24:43.been rocked given the recommendations of the Everington

:24:44. > :24:50.report and this crisis of trust relationship, which has brought us

:24:51. > :24:53.to this point. The level of trusty oversight in national organisations

:24:54. > :24:58.leaves a sour taste in the mouth, not just of those in the chamber,

:24:59. > :25:02.but for those who have volunteered as trustees in the majority of

:25:03. > :25:06.charities across these islands. It is telling the organisations that

:25:07. > :25:12.have caused the most concern, so-called national charities, with

:25:13. > :25:17.well camped faces, who have been held in higher regard. More is the

:25:18. > :25:21.impact on the organisation so far investigated, Ltd. Yet the impact of

:25:22. > :25:27.the majority of small charity trustees has been profound. They

:25:28. > :25:30.find themselves labelled in the mire of mismanagement which has led us to

:25:31. > :25:36.this point. They have been sullied by the bad practice and lack of due

:25:37. > :25:39.care. Madam Deputy Speaker, while there will be those who said the

:25:40. > :25:44.small and medium-sized charitable organisations will not be impacted

:25:45. > :25:49.by this legislation, we fail to recognise the profound impact this

:25:50. > :25:55.will have on their ability to recruit, train and develop the

:25:56. > :26:02.volunteer trustees. Many members of this very chamber, Madam Deputy

:26:03. > :26:05.Speaker, our trustees themselves. I know the member for Redding East,

:26:06. > :26:13.who is no longer in her position, who noted that. Meli being an MP

:26:14. > :26:27.should not just qualify you to be an MP to default of your position. I am

:26:28. > :26:30.sure members, especially those are elected at the general election were

:26:31. > :26:36.Aston upon election if they wanted to join various charities as a

:26:37. > :26:39.trustee or director based on the predecessor having undertaken that

:26:40. > :26:45.role. This, in itself exposes from my perspective and misguided

:26:46. > :26:48.approach to trustee recruitment. Although it must be said, this

:26:49. > :26:54.approach is done by a small amount of organisations and it seems it is

:26:55. > :27:00.the larger charitable bodies that follow this approach. It is my hope

:27:01. > :27:06.that we recognise the worth and value of our civic society,

:27:07. > :27:10.especially those individual volunteers who managed charities,

:27:11. > :27:16.run services the charities and yes, even raise funds through traditional

:27:17. > :27:19.means. It was the honourable member for Ilford North who mentioned that

:27:20. > :27:26.earlier, and did so before entering this House. That we recognise those

:27:27. > :27:32.charities and we owe them an explanation on how the Civic Society

:27:33. > :27:34.has been undermined by large NGOs with substantial investment and

:27:35. > :27:40.resources who frankly should have known better. Although this

:27:41. > :27:48.legislation pertains to England and Wales only, surrounding the

:27:49. > :27:49.principal purpose has continued to undermine Civic society across these

:27:50. > :28:43.islands. has become clear to civic society in

:28:44. > :28:46.Scotland that the distinct approach would be required. In terms of

:28:47. > :28:48.fundraising. And in July of last year the Scottish council for

:28:49. > :28:54.voluntary organisations expressed concern that high-profile media

:28:55. > :28:59.reports for the feelings of UK charities could damage the strong

:29:00. > :29:05.reputation of Scotland charities. As a national intermediaries J S C all

:29:06. > :29:10.bison and for reviewing fundraising and July in parallel with the other

:29:11. > :29:15.to review this reported in September 2015 recommending that fundraising

:29:16. > :29:19.should be agreed between charities and the public and the Scottish

:29:20. > :29:24.Government with the subsequent summit held on the 26th of November

:29:25. > :29:31.last year the living and considering options. Building on the Scottish

:29:32. > :29:36.civil society led approach, Alec Neill MSP stated on the 20 4th of

:29:37. > :29:40.September 2015 the Scottish ministers would engage in a

:29:41. > :29:47.cross-party discussion on changing fundraising regulations. Therefore

:29:48. > :29:49.ensuring consensus from Parliament, the Scottish Parliament, and

:29:50. > :29:56.critically Scotland's fourth estate, civil society. Fundraising has been

:29:57. > :30:01.motivated by charities in both Scotland and England and result of

:30:02. > :30:08.the Everton review this instant introduce fundraising for England

:30:09. > :30:11.and Wales for this Parliament. As I have highlighted that the concerns

:30:12. > :30:15.with an Scottish charities could be affected with this legislation and

:30:16. > :30:20.therefore the question of the regulation fundraising Scotland

:30:21. > :30:25.remains open and the SNP benches would seek the reassurance of the

:30:26. > :30:32.Minister that Scotland will retain the ability to legislate in this

:30:33. > :30:36.area. Our Scottish Government works in a constructive collaborative way

:30:37. > :30:44.with civil society and has been praised for his work with those with

:30:45. > :30:47.disabilities and those gaining a system from refugee bodies and

:30:48. > :30:53.especially when investing over many years and local sports doctor across

:30:54. > :30:56.all 32 authorities to promote volunteering development and

:30:57. > :31:02.retention and expansion. Critically in the field of governance,

:31:03. > :31:08.trusteeship and directorship. I can only assume that given the budget

:31:09. > :31:12.cuts to the volunteer Centres and councils for everything went well

:31:13. > :31:17.have continued with an impact on opportunities to volunteer with an

:31:18. > :31:19.trusty clinic need them the most. If the government is serious about just

:31:20. > :31:26.the trip and charitable regulation it must recognise and support given

:31:27. > :31:35.by small local database charities. -- trusteeship. Fewer people

:31:36. > :31:41.volunteering for trusteeship and fewer people than eating to

:31:42. > :31:45.charities run by volunteers and few people involved in the civic life of

:31:46. > :31:50.these others. In reality the large charitable bodies who have brought

:31:51. > :31:54.about the situation have got away with it and the small and medium

:31:55. > :32:01.charitable bodies will suffer disproportionately. With that in

:32:02. > :32:07.mind, these benches will also support new clause three. This was

:32:08. > :32:10.brought by the Honourable member for Redcar and we're delighted they

:32:11. > :32:16.placing this before the House. It is in our opinion to legislate on

:32:17. > :32:23.charities that may be UK wide yet registered in England and Wales

:32:24. > :32:25.without this new clause that abilities to inform debate limits

:32:26. > :32:33.the independence of Scotland was back civic society. -- Scotland's

:32:34. > :32:36.civic society. In seeking to introduce a new model of fundraising

:32:37. > :32:43.regulation in England and Wales, I reiterate finally that Scottish

:32:44. > :32:47.Government and the national bodies of Scotland and actively considering

:32:48. > :32:51.the implications for regulations for charity fundraising in Scotland. It

:32:52. > :32:56.is right that the broad conversation as possible is held in Scotland to

:32:57. > :33:01.determine the right fundraising regulations for a distinct

:33:02. > :33:06.charitable Scottish body. With the Scottish women engaging in a

:33:07. > :33:08.cross-party discussion cross-party regulation the question of

:33:09. > :33:15.regulation of fundraising in Scotland remains open. The remains

:33:16. > :33:18.self collating or not, it is important that this House

:33:19. > :33:23.understands today that the decision that this is the bold issue -- of

:33:24. > :33:35.this devolved issue remains firmly in the hands of the Scottish

:33:36. > :33:43.Parliament. -- default issue. --Devolved. The clause seeks to

:33:44. > :33:48.alter charities that have operated in this country. By greater fool for

:33:49. > :33:51.charities I believe that we risk undermining the ability to work

:33:52. > :33:57.independently for the common good and rest are showing their standing

:33:58. > :34:08.in the eyes of the public at large. -- Fuller. I have this killing is on

:34:09. > :34:16.the need of this clause and the status quo already allows charities

:34:17. > :34:24.to lobby government in their impartial way one remaining

:34:25. > :34:31.apolitical works. I'm concerned that this new remit may have an ability

:34:32. > :34:37.on the mac -- an effect on the ability of charities to raise funds.

:34:38. > :34:42.To extend the scope of charities to allow them to campaign for against

:34:43. > :34:45.the law policy decision would inevitably incur a significant

:34:46. > :34:50.amount of additional costs which in my view would be better spent

:34:51. > :34:59.fulfilling the original aims and objectives of the charities. This

:35:00. > :35:05.should not agree with me that how the charity collector money and have

:35:06. > :35:09.a charity spends its money in order to deliver its charitable mission on

:35:10. > :35:16.behalf of its service users is of the preserve of its trustees and it

:35:17. > :35:20.is not for us to decide here such operational or moral matters and

:35:21. > :35:25.certainly not for us as individual members of Parliament to they spend

:35:26. > :35:31.their money can deliver on the charitable aims? It is up to the

:35:32. > :35:36.trustees. I understand really is coming from but I think way I

:35:37. > :35:41.interpret what the new glossary does is that it will encourage charities

:35:42. > :35:51.to go down that route and perhaps sway away from intentions, however

:35:52. > :35:55.well-meaning they may be and I think inadvertently misleading the public,

:35:56. > :36:01.not intentionally, I do admit. It is quite conceivable that we could

:36:02. > :36:04.reach a point where a large cancer charity, for instance, spends more

:36:05. > :36:08.on lobbying national and local government and it spends on

:36:09. > :36:11.investing in the research and element of new cancer drugs and I

:36:12. > :36:21.think that is really what you're trying to allude to. For me this

:36:22. > :36:27.raises an number of major issues. Firstly, the impact on donations.

:36:28. > :36:31.Charities rely heavily on public donations to fight their specific

:36:32. > :36:36.causes of issues. With the charities aid foundation recently estimating

:36:37. > :36:43.that into the 14 alone ?10.6 billion with the naked by the British public

:36:44. > :36:47.to a vast array of good causes. By politicising charities we risk

:36:48. > :36:53.donors turning away from charities whose causes support because they do

:36:54. > :36:57.not necessarily share the political agenda alignment of the charity.

:36:58. > :37:04.Secondly this clause would serve to allow larger national charities with

:37:05. > :37:07.Mozilla against resources to lobby members must place to strengthen

:37:08. > :37:12.their influence on policy and decision-making. This would be to

:37:13. > :37:15.the detriment of smaller, from local, charities, of which we all

:37:16. > :37:18.are many examples, who we further marginalised from the

:37:19. > :37:23.decision-making process because they simply could not afford to compete

:37:24. > :37:28.for a time. That is also the point. I like many others would be deeply

:37:29. > :37:34.concerned if those charities that are very much a cornerstone of our

:37:35. > :37:39.society such as the Royal British Legion, McMillan, age UK are the

:37:40. > :37:43.NSPCC to name but a few suddenly became vulnerable to infiltration

:37:44. > :37:46.from those who wanted to push a specific political agenda and use

:37:47. > :37:52.the charity to criticise or support the government of the day on running

:37:53. > :37:56.the charity as a force for good. I'm sure you would agree that we do not

:37:57. > :38:01.really need any more politicians. Yes, it is only right and proper

:38:02. > :38:06.charities play the role in our society by seeking to influence

:38:07. > :38:10.government both locally and nationally but the salsa much more

:38:11. > :38:16.to a government without widening the scope further to be out and out

:38:17. > :38:20.political campaigning or some would call it the dark arts. That is why I

:38:21. > :38:31.will be voting against this new clause this afternoon. It is a great

:38:32. > :38:35.pleasure to speak in this debate today. We often have a wonderful

:38:36. > :38:40.debates in this place about what Britishness about what our culture

:38:41. > :38:45.is about in all the rest of it. I actually think the voluntary sector

:38:46. > :38:51.must country represents the best of British, the best of English, Welsh,

:38:52. > :38:55.Scottish and Northern managed. I think we do not always say thank you

:38:56. > :39:00.as politicians but I think are starting point today is to say thank

:39:01. > :39:06.you as we consider the bill before us, to say a very big thank you to a

:39:07. > :39:11.very hard-working and diverse voluntary sector in this country. I

:39:12. > :39:15.think we also have to remember that most charities in this country are

:39:16. > :39:20.relatively small. They operate in committees and it is not our job in

:39:21. > :39:29.this place to be a pain in the net for those 900,000 plus trusty gees

:39:30. > :39:33.-- trustees of charities in this country who give of their time to

:39:34. > :39:37.make management and governance the sessions, for the charities and

:39:38. > :39:41.those many volunteers and for those people whose motivation is

:39:42. > :39:46.undoubtedly to do good in our society and in our country. However,

:39:47. > :39:51.we cannot of course forget exceptions, the horror stories.

:39:52. > :39:59.Stories like the dreadful incident of the death of Olive Cook, who

:40:00. > :40:07.appears to have been hounded by 90 charities with 460 donation letters

:40:08. > :40:13.within the course of a year. Nor can we forget the undercover Daily Mail

:40:14. > :40:17.report from the call centre from hell and what appeared to be severe

:40:18. > :40:20.malpractice in that. Nor should we forget of course the case after its

:40:21. > :40:39.company, -- Kids Company and all the abuses

:40:40. > :40:43.there which should have been dealt with by the government under its

:40:44. > :40:46.existing powers. For those of the exceptions they are nevertheless

:40:47. > :40:52.very important and it is right we are having the discussion we are

:40:53. > :40:58.having in Parliament today. I know from all sides of the House we will

:40:59. > :41:05.see in our own political traditions elements of voluntary activity and

:41:06. > :41:12.we can see, we can develop some sort of empathy from different parts of

:41:13. > :41:14.the voluntary sector. In our side, the labour movement, the

:41:15. > :41:20.co-operative movement, the working men and women's organisations and a

:41:21. > :41:26.whole range of other bodies but sold to another minister will be moved by

:41:27. > :41:30.Edmund Burke and his notion of the little platoons and I asked today he

:41:31. > :41:36.does not overburdened those well behaving little platoons in our

:41:37. > :41:40.country with red tape when it is not needed and I know that most of us

:41:41. > :41:46.would agree that whether this regulation needed generally it is a

:41:47. > :41:51.secretary is self does that best and I for one would give a welcome to

:41:52. > :41:56.the fundraising preference service which will deal with some of the

:41:57. > :42:07.totally unacceptable abuses of practice and terms of this instance.

:42:08. > :42:11.My honourable friend spoke eloquently of the safeguards

:42:12. > :42:19.required as she spoke of clause one. The power for the charity treble

:42:20. > :42:25.zero against the warning when appeal was made that morning not been

:42:26. > :42:27.public for at least 20 days after the submission of the appeal. I

:42:28. > :42:34.think that is good common sense because we're not talking about

:42:35. > :42:38.gross must contact criminal acts when that should be reported

:42:39. > :42:43.straightaway. We are talking about things that could ruin the

:42:44. > :42:49.reputation of a charity, large, medium sized or small because we

:42:50. > :42:54.will know from the wonderful report of the public administration and

:42:55. > :42:59.positional affairs committee, the 2015 charity fundraising

:43:00. > :43:06.controversy, lessons for trustees and the Charity commission and I

:43:07. > :43:08.would argue the rest of us, I would argue we know from this that the

:43:09. > :43:14.recommendations at the end make it very clear that it will be aside and

:43:15. > :43:21.in its user base available -- Assad and inescapable failure and not a

:43:22. > :43:25.success and it also makes the point of the good governance and general

:43:26. > :43:30.is about sustainability of reputation in the long term as well

:43:31. > :43:33.as finances so it is reputation that we are arguing for here and a new

:43:34. > :43:38.clause one because would be so difficult with the law as it stands

:43:39. > :43:44.at the moment for those charities to be able to undo the damage that

:43:45. > :43:50.would be dealt to it in terms of its reputation and is good standing in

:43:51. > :44:20.the community and also the very important aspect of finance.

:44:21. > :44:27.Even if you go back to the founding of charities in this country but you

:44:28. > :44:35.will see is it was not just about the release of poverty -- release

:44:36. > :44:39.from poverty but was also general charitable purposes but also the

:44:40. > :44:44.banishment of education and religion so the idea there was not a broader

:44:45. > :44:51.view in our charities of advocacy simply does not add up. I know

:44:52. > :44:55.people rightly say that advocacy should not be party political and it

:44:56. > :45:07.would be illegal for it to be but the idea that it would be a charity

:45:08. > :45:09.running particle programmes in terms of International Development would

:45:10. > :45:15.not be interested in blogging against malaria are international

:45:16. > :45:29.debt, that would be an extraordinary state of affairs. Anyone who donates

:45:30. > :45:41.to charity has that right to go straight on to see how the charity

:45:42. > :45:52.response. We want to work with the government and with the voluntary

:45:53. > :45:55.secretary is to do something sensible and not just something that

:45:56. > :46:53.we would agree with that also Mr Burke and his little platoons.

:46:54. > :47:02.When I look at this bill it is the charity 's protection Bill. It is

:47:03. > :47:06.about achieving a balance about the scrutiny and accountability of the

:47:07. > :47:16.trust and respect. Particularly in the wake of the handful of very,

:47:17. > :47:20.very sad stories that emerged during the course of last year. One has

:47:21. > :47:29.already been alluded to and that was the collapse of the Kids Company. I

:47:30. > :47:33.believe it should be proportionate and that is something I spoke about

:47:34. > :47:38.during second reading. My mind takes me back to some of those small

:47:39. > :47:46.charities in my own constituency. Rosie's Helping Hands. And the youth

:47:47. > :47:53.Theatre, which is also a charity and Saint Giles Hospice. These are

:47:54. > :47:57.charities that are led so often by the local community, by local

:47:58. > :48:03.people. Local people contribute their time, effort, energies as well

:48:04. > :48:09.as the money. And they give something back to the local

:48:10. > :48:14.community. In terms of this debate today, Madam Deputy Speaker, I

:48:15. > :48:19.wanted to speak against some of the amendments, particularly new clause

:48:20. > :48:24.three, power to make representations and also to amendment eight,

:48:25. > :48:32.relating to warnings. So with regards to amendment eight and

:48:33. > :48:36.warnings, I do feel this bill is about, at its heart, transparency

:48:37. > :48:44.and restoring trust in the eyes of the public. That is why I feel the

:48:45. > :48:48.power, so the charities commission can place on record where warnings

:48:49. > :48:54.have been given, is important. That is why I will be voting against an

:48:55. > :48:58.amendment eight. If I go to new clause three, which is the power to

:48:59. > :49:03.make representations, something we had quite a lively debate during the

:49:04. > :49:10.Bill committee stages and clearly having a lively debate again about

:49:11. > :49:19.it today. It is important we remind ourselves of two points. The first

:49:20. > :49:25.is the deliberate abuse of charities has been found to occur only and

:49:26. > :49:29.very, very rare occasions. The vast majority of charities do good work

:49:30. > :49:35.and they are reputable organisations, we must never forget

:49:36. > :49:38.that. Alongside that we have to recognise and remember that

:49:39. > :49:41.charities can and they do make representations already and often

:49:42. > :49:46.very successfully. As I referred to earlier this afternoon, we all

:49:47. > :49:52.receive representations from many, many charities during the course of

:49:53. > :49:55.our work. But there is a difference between non-political campaigning to

:49:56. > :50:00.raise awareness of a particular issue, even if the aim is to change

:50:01. > :50:05.policy or legislation and what is being proposed in this new clause. I

:50:06. > :50:09.go back to my point I believe firmly this bill is about strengthening

:50:10. > :50:15.trust in charities, the trust of the public. So, the idea through this

:50:16. > :50:19.new clause, of enshrining in legislation, the right to undertake

:50:20. > :50:27.elliptical campaigning activity completely undermines this. I fear I

:50:28. > :50:34.have almost come to the end, so I will conclude. I am normally very,

:50:35. > :50:39.very generous. But I really feel this amendment, this new clause

:50:40. > :50:44.risks losing what is fundamentally the political activity of a charity

:50:45. > :50:52.to something which risks being completely politicised and goes

:50:53. > :50:56.against the grain. Thank you. I am grateful to be called in this debate

:50:57. > :51:02.and followed the honourable member for Aldridge-Brownhills. I wasn't

:51:03. > :51:08.able to do an intervention, but I would like to make the point she was