27/01/2016

:00:00. > :00:17.World to. The Cabinet Office questions before recess, the

:00:18. > :00:23.Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster stated in response to a question

:00:24. > :00:29.from my friends back, but the council had ?200 million in an

:00:30. > :00:33.unusable reserves and concluded the problems are reported facing our

:00:34. > :00:39.constituents were therefore, not real ones. I have now had it

:00:40. > :00:43.confirmed that those underused reserves are not remotely close to

:00:44. > :00:49.this and, even including already allocated reserves, the figure is

:00:50. > :00:54.nowhere near 200 million. The Minister for Local Government is now

:00:55. > :00:56.also confirmed that according to the Government's audit figures, Kirklees

:00:57. > :01:03.council had less than one fifth of this amount in unallocated financial

:01:04. > :01:08.reserves. Can I ask you what recourse do is for members were in

:01:09. > :01:13.minister has, even if unintentionally, misled this House

:01:14. > :01:16.on a matter that some seriously affect our constituents? Every

:01:17. > :01:21.member of this house must take responsibility for the veracity of

:01:22. > :01:27.what he or she says. If somebody thinks the house has been

:01:28. > :01:31.inadvertently misled, the member is responsible for collecting the

:01:32. > :01:36.record. The second point is, in terms of the recourse of the

:01:37. > :01:42.honourable lady, it lies in the order paper and the advice that is

:01:43. > :01:50.proffered by the table office. What I mean by that is persistence pays

:01:51. > :01:55.as if she thinks she has got a good point she should repeat it. She will

:01:56. > :02:00.have heard me make the observation that repetition is not a novel

:02:01. > :02:07.phenomena in the house and if she wants to keep making hotpot she can

:02:08. > :02:13.take advice from the College of Art and how to do so and most of them

:02:14. > :02:20.are very practised in the art. -- from the colleagues around her. The

:02:21. > :02:27.house will have heard the many tributes made to Holocaust memorial

:02:28. > :02:31.Day and the Memorial trust campaign. Does he not think it was

:02:32. > :02:36.inappropriate for the Prime Minister to use a language relating to the

:02:37. > :02:41.refugee crisis in Europe and talk about a bunch of migrants? Does he

:02:42. > :02:51.think it would be appropriate for the house to ask the Prime Minister

:02:52. > :02:53.to withdraw that language. Much more statesman-like language on such a

:02:54. > :03:01.complex and sensitive issue should be used. The right speaks with

:03:02. > :03:06.enormous experience in this House and I respect what she says and

:03:07. > :03:10.empathise with her observations about Holocaust memorial day which

:03:11. > :03:15.she and I on other occasions have marked at events together. I think

:03:16. > :03:23.what she said very seriously. I have to say to her and to the House that

:03:24. > :03:26.the observation in question was not disorderly or unparliamentary.

:03:27. > :03:30.Everyone must take responsibility for the remarks they make in this

:03:31. > :03:35.house and it is clear the right honourable lady would not have used

:03:36. > :03:41.that term. It is open to the Prime Minister to comment on it if he

:03:42. > :03:46.wishes but I am not entitled to try to oblige him to see anything on the

:03:47. > :03:51.matter. She has made her point very clearly and it is on the record and

:03:52. > :04:04.people will make their own assessments of this matter. Let's

:04:05. > :04:08.have a point of order. Business questions last week I asked a

:04:09. > :04:15.question relating to post study work visas, an issue of an ongoing

:04:16. > :04:20.enquiry. The Leader of the House responded by stating this was, an

:04:21. > :04:26.area not Jimmy Smith, Jim report. I have a copy here and on page 28 of

:04:27. > :04:29.the report it says the Scottish and UK Government should work together

:04:30. > :04:36.to explore the possibility of introducing schemes to allow

:04:37. > :04:41.students graduating from higher education institutes to remain in

:04:42. > :04:46.Scotland and contribute to economic activity for a defined period of

:04:47. > :04:49.time. Can you advise ways in which the Leader of the House can correct

:04:50. > :04:54.the record I know of a commitment that the Government will seriously

:04:55. > :05:00.consider this issue as recommended by the cross-party Smith, shouldn't?

:05:01. > :05:05.Notwithstanding the serious and statesman-like countenance of the

:05:06. > :05:10.honourable gentleman, it suffered from the quite material disadvantage

:05:11. > :05:17.of being many things, but not a point of order for each year. We can

:05:18. > :05:23.all read the Smith report, I confess I am not myself familiar with or

:05:24. > :05:27.have an instant recall of page 24 and the honourable gentleman has the

:05:28. > :05:33.advantage on media. When he asks what opportunities there is for him

:05:34. > :05:36.to hold the Leader of the House to account, the short answer is to

:05:37. > :05:41.model at business questions I am sure the honourable gentleman will

:05:42. > :05:50.be in his place and if he is I will see him. Part of order. Government

:05:51. > :05:52.ministers are both in this house and in Westminster Hall have made a

:05:53. > :05:57.number of statements and claims about the steel industry in

:05:58. > :06:02.particular the issue of procurement and measures being taken by the

:06:03. > :06:05.Government. It was extraordinary to get a written answer from the

:06:06. > :06:11.Ministry of Defence that said they do not hold a record of steel

:06:12. > :06:15.procurement either in quantity or country of origin. In light of that

:06:16. > :06:20.how you think I might be able to gain greater clarity on whether the

:06:21. > :06:21.Government's claims of procurement in the steel industry are actually

:06:22. > :06:40.the case? As I believe the honourable member

:06:41. > :06:45.is away, his answer lies in for the questions and the beat. This is

:06:46. > :06:51.ample opportunity to seek adjournment debates. I do not mean

:06:52. > :07:01.to be discourteous, but I think, in truth, which is in evidence from his

:07:02. > :07:08.grin, he was more important in making his point to me, rather than

:07:09. > :07:17.anything I had to say about it. With regard to my honourable friend 's

:07:18. > :07:26.question. The honourable gentleman was referred to by his first name. I

:07:27. > :07:33.do not believe that is the case. He should not be referred to by his

:07:34. > :07:38.first name, but by his constituency. I think the Prime Minister did this

:07:39. > :07:46.to make sure he would get on the news coverage in London at the time.

:07:47. > :07:51.I believe the Prime Minister is being disrespectful to those and to

:07:52. > :07:57.the procedures in seeking electoral advantage for the Conservative

:07:58. > :07:59.Party. Would you confirm that and if so, how could we upgrade the Prime

:08:00. > :08:07.Minister for his discourteous behaviour. He has rather magnify the

:08:08. > :08:16.issue. I do not disrespect them for that. I would see, first, yes of

:08:17. > :08:20.course, members should be referred to by their constituencies, not by

:08:21. > :08:27.the names, and secondly, I think it was almost certainly an oversight.

:08:28. > :08:36.Even the Prime Minister, who is immensely experienced at the

:08:37. > :08:40.dispatch box, can in the heat of the moment be responsible for an

:08:41. > :08:47.oversight. I do not think it was anything more than that. Just as I

:08:48. > :08:54.momentarily forgot to call Mr Vickers to ask his question. We are

:08:55. > :08:54.all fallible. I suspect even the honourable gentleman may sometimes

:08:55. > :09:24.be. Know that the appetite for points of

:09:25. > :09:48.order has been seated, we know who come to the Ten-Minute Rule motion.

:09:49. > :09:56.The first measure says the voluntary removal from the register of driving

:09:57. > :10:01.instructors should be initiated. This is when the registration has

:10:02. > :10:06.lapsed between one in four years. To qualify to become a driving

:10:07. > :10:13.inspector, one has to pass through the driving examinations, which test

:10:14. > :10:17.both of driving ability, the instructional skill and their

:10:18. > :10:27.medical fitness. The total cost of taking all the required tests is

:10:28. > :10:34.approximately ?750. Driving instructors name is added to the

:10:35. > :10:38.register and remains on it for four years. Once Pearson is on the

:10:39. > :10:44.register, they are required to take a standard up straight with them for

:10:45. > :10:48.years to make sure they are still instructing to an approved standard.

:10:49. > :10:55.Under current legislation, the only way a person can be removed is of

:10:56. > :11:04.the registration runs out or they are removed from the register for

:11:05. > :11:12.conduct, Colin competence or disciplinary reasons. This would

:11:13. > :11:19.allow the register for people to be removed from it for the likes of

:11:20. > :11:25.illness, ill or for example keeling for an elderly relative. These three

:11:26. > :11:30.examples have been brought to my attention. The first is one who was

:11:31. > :11:34.keeling for his terminally ill parent and could not attend his

:11:35. > :11:40.standards check. He had to be removed from the register for

:11:41. > :11:45.disciplinary reasons. To return to the register, he would have to

:11:46. > :11:49.requalify the other 3-part qualification route and his

:11:50. > :12:00.disciplinary record would be taken into consideration. The second

:12:01. > :12:03.example is a female who was unable to renew her registration because

:12:04. > :12:09.she had taken a career break to raise two young children. She would

:12:10. > :12:18.then have had to undergo this 3-part prequalification process. She would

:12:19. > :12:26.have preferred to leave the register voluntarily and return at a later

:12:27. > :12:30.date. The third and final example is one who allowed his registration to

:12:31. > :12:35.lapse due to a heart attack. At the end of the 12 month period in which

:12:36. > :12:38.he could reregister without having to requalify, he was still on

:12:39. > :12:45.medication and did not feel able enough to resume construction. The

:12:46. > :12:53.did allow him a two-month period of grace. But he felt this place them

:12:54. > :12:57.undue stress. He thought it may impact on 's recovery. Currently,

:12:58. > :13:02.when they have been off the register for a year that can reapply and be

:13:03. > :13:06.added back onto the register subject to conduct an medical fitness

:13:07. > :13:14.requirements. However, if it lapses more than a year, they would to the

:13:15. > :13:19.three qualification exams. The problems caused by the current

:13:20. > :13:25.legislation have been brought to our attention by a constituent who runs

:13:26. > :13:37.a driving school. They have 200 drivers. There reasons for

:13:38. > :13:41.contacting me were as follows, the industry is losing instructors due

:13:42. > :13:47.to many factors. This process of the qualifying can be a long time, which

:13:48. > :13:56.means there is a real shortage of driving instructors. His company as

:13:57. > :14:04.the waiting list of some 68 weeks for pupils to learn to drive. This

:14:05. > :14:10.is stopping many young adults. This is a common-sense issue. He has

:14:11. > :14:16.spoken to many drivers who are meeting the same issues. As a role

:14:17. > :14:20.of the driving instructor is not a physical one, many former driving

:14:21. > :14:24.instructors are trying to get back into the industry by the recall of

:14:25. > :14:31.buying process is lengthy and they have thus decided not to do so. Many

:14:32. > :14:41.have many -- much to give to the industry through the experience and

:14:42. > :14:51.skill. The difference is within the 12 month situation. To help

:14:52. > :14:55.alleviate the problem, we need the process to be streamlined. If

:14:56. > :15:03.possible, the 12 month period should be extended. The cost of the

:15:04. > :15:10.pre-qualifying exams, are both seen as reasons for people failing to

:15:11. > :15:16.return to the profession after a break. There are some 43,000

:15:17. > :15:20.registered driving instructors and just 25 on average just want to

:15:21. > :15:35.return to the industry of them each year. We think the qualifying time

:15:36. > :15:40.would be reduced from 36 weeks to six weeks and avoid the cost of

:15:41. > :15:47.undergoing the 3-part qualification once again. The standards check

:15:48. > :15:57.would be the same as one which the practising driving instructors

:15:58. > :16:04.already take. A person applying to re-enter the industry through this

:16:05. > :16:08.route with pass a standards check. If the field that he claims they

:16:09. > :16:10.would have to repeat the 3-part qualification process, thus

:16:11. > :16:17.maintaining the high standards within the industry. This would not

:16:18. > :16:25.be available to people who had been the register for disciplinary

:16:26. > :16:38.reasons. Many of those working in the industry are in small businesses

:16:39. > :16:45.or self-employed. The changes are outlined in this bill and would

:16:46. > :16:49.allow the ADIs two re-enter the industry more quickly. This would be

:16:50. > :16:59.of benefit both to the driving instructors and to the industry and

:17:00. > :17:10.to the public. The would-be up to the same standard as the colleagues.

:17:11. > :17:14.The geographical limits of the bill would be for Great Britain,

:17:15. > :17:21.excluding Northern Ireland. It would allow instructors to come off the

:17:22. > :17:24.register for a period of time for Hill or family reasons and this

:17:25. > :17:29.would be a cost-effective way for them to return to the profession

:17:30. > :17:50.without compromising instruction standards. I commend this to the

:17:51. > :17:52.house. As many as would see aye? The ayes have it. Who would bring in the

:17:53. > :18:40.bill? Driving and structures registration

:18:41. > :18:48.bill. Second reading? February the 5th. We come to the mean business,

:18:49. > :18:58.opposition the 17th a lot today. In first, to the motion of reduction in

:18:59. > :19:05.housing benefit. Just before I call the rate honourable gentleman, it

:19:06. > :19:12.may be of interest to the house and useful to the front benches to know

:19:13. > :19:18.that no fewer than 19 members are seeking to catch my eye from the

:19:19. > :19:21.backbenches. Disabling upon the time limit, I shall have to take into

:19:22. > :19:29.account the length of contributions from the front bench, the front

:19:30. > :19:33.bench being ever consider well I am sure wish that the contributions are

:19:34. > :19:42.tailored to allow for the views of the backbenches to be here. Thank

:19:43. > :19:48.you, Mr Speaker. We have called Vista beta give voice to hundreds of

:19:49. > :19:54.thousands of vulnerable people whose houses have been put at risk by the

:19:55. > :20:00.government. It is very encouraging to know that 19 members on both

:20:01. > :20:05.sides of the house wish to express their concerns and make a

:20:06. > :20:10.contribution to this debate. We want to expose this decision to challenge

:20:11. > :20:20.and to expose it to compassion and to clear. We want to expose it to

:20:21. > :20:23.common-sense. In the spending review, the Chancellor announced,

:20:24. > :20:30.and I quote, housing benefit and the social sector will be capped. With

:20:31. > :20:38.one short sweeping sentence, he put at risk almost all supported and

:20:39. > :20:42.shelter closing for the frail and elderly, the homeless, adults

:20:43. > :20:49.needing care, those suffering with dementia, those with mental illness

:20:50. > :20:53.or physical disability, veterans of those women fleeing domestic

:20:54. > :21:01.violence. Nearly half of all social housing schemes could be faced with

:21:02. > :21:05.closure. He has already closed caused the cancellation of building

:21:06. > :21:15.work on 2500 new houses for people of these groups.

:21:16. > :21:21.The Chancellor was not housing benefit cuts could affect the lives

:21:22. > :21:26.of hundreds of thousands of people who depend on this special housing,

:21:27. > :21:32.many of the most vulnerable people, with nowhere else to turn. The

:21:33. > :21:39.National Housing Federation says 156,000 homes, or at least that

:21:40. > :21:45.number of people, are set to close. One in four supportive housing

:21:46. > :21:48.providers are set to close a bruising, the farm. 19 out of 20 say

:21:49. > :21:53.they will close some of the they will close some of the

:21:54. > :21:56.supported accommodation. Since the spending review I have been asking

:21:57. > :22:03.ministers for evidence about this decision. I have asked the minister

:22:04. > :22:09.how many elderly people will be affected by this cut and he has told

:22:10. > :22:13.me the Government does not know. How many women are fleeing domestic

:22:14. > :22:18.violence? Don't know. How many people with mental health problems?.

:22:19. > :22:23.No. Young people leaving care. Don't know. The Government do not know how

:22:24. > :22:28.many people in supportive housing receive the benefit they plan to

:22:29. > :22:33.cut. But he has told me they have commissioned and evidence review

:22:34. > :22:38.that was started in December 2014 and should have been finished by

:22:39. > :22:42.last November but it was not. Why not? Well, and parliamentary

:22:43. > :22:48.questions the minister said it is bound to, the emerging complexity in

:22:49. > :22:58.the design and delivery of the review. Let me finish this point

:22:59. > :23:03.before I give way. The Minister did not know what he was doing when he

:23:04. > :23:07.commissioned the review and he must have been alone and less house and

:23:08. > :23:13.the country not to know there was a general election in May last year.

:23:14. > :23:21.He says it will be ready later this year. So he doesn't even know when

:23:22. > :23:28.he will know what at the moment he does not know. What a shambles. What

:23:29. > :23:32.a serious dereliction of duty for a Government that should be making

:23:33. > :23:40.policy on evidence, especially when it affects the lives of so many

:23:41. > :23:43.vulnerable people. I give way. Does he agree that one helpful when the

:23:44. > :23:50.Minister could do during this debate is to make clear that the cap

:23:51. > :23:54.applies to housing benefit and not to the service charge that is

:23:55. > :23:59.applied to so many in supported accommodation? I don't often

:24:00. > :24:05.disagree with my honourable friend what I do not agree with that. What

:24:06. > :24:10.is clear, as in other motion, is the Government must act immediately,

:24:11. > :24:14.confirmed they will exempt supported housing from these housing benefit

:24:15. > :24:19.cuts and then work with the housing providers to make sure this sort of

:24:20. > :24:24.housing can be developed for the future and secure in the future. I

:24:25. > :24:32.hope my honourable friend will accept that argument. The suggestion

:24:33. > :24:35.that the Government doesn't know what is that not also a suggestion

:24:36. > :24:40.that they don't care about the people they are directly affecting.

:24:41. > :24:49.It was estimated that investment in supported housing benefits are still

:24:50. > :24:52.around ?640 million a year. I will not likely on that question later on

:24:53. > :25:07.and I think people can make their own judgments. A devastating

:25:08. > :25:14.decision made with no consultation, low impact assessment, no evidence.

:25:15. > :25:18.My honourable friend is right, this is not a tussle between two front

:25:19. > :25:25.benches, this concerns each and every member of this house. Every MP

:25:26. > :25:30.in this country has in their constituency hundreds of residents

:25:31. > :25:35.in supported housing or sheltered housing, many of whom can't pay the

:25:36. > :25:38.rent and service charges for themselves and who totally dependent

:25:39. > :25:46.on housing benefit to help cover the costs. I am very grateful to my

:25:47. > :25:50.honourable friend for giving way. Isn't the real unfairness here many

:25:51. > :25:56.of those constituents of all of us who are in supported housing, for

:25:57. > :26:02.them, supported housing is actually a very expensive but necessary

:26:03. > :26:06.choice, and without the additional support through the housing benefit

:26:07. > :26:09.system they would not be able to afford that form of accommodation

:26:10. > :26:16.that is so vital to the everyday needs. My honourable friend, in

:26:17. > :26:25.characteristic way, puts in a couple of sentences the main point I am

:26:26. > :26:31.making in my speech. You rightly said that all of us will have

:26:32. > :26:37.constituents in sheltered housing. The well-known we all care about

:26:38. > :26:42.endless house, irrespective of party, about our constituents. Can I

:26:43. > :26:45.ask him to disassociate themselves made by his honourable friend that

:26:46. > :26:53.this side of the house don't care because we do. In a way it is down

:26:54. > :26:57.to the honourable gentleman and his front bench colleagues to

:26:58. > :27:01.demonstrate that case to the people watching this debate and certainly

:27:02. > :27:09.to those people who's a very homes and lives are put at risk. I make

:27:10. > :27:14.the point that every member of this house, and our constituencies, we

:27:15. > :27:21.have people threatened by this crude housing benefit cut that the

:27:22. > :27:27.Chancellor has announced. In the Housing Minister's constituency

:27:28. > :27:32.alone in Great Yarmouth, the 258 people in supported housing. On top

:27:33. > :27:38.of that there are at least 139 people in sheltered housing. The

:27:39. > :27:42.numbers are greater in South Swindon and for Tunbridge Wells. What do we

:27:43. > :27:48.say to these residents and their families? What do we say to the

:27:49. > :27:52.charities, housing associations, churches and other groups who

:27:53. > :27:58.provide the special housing and who are so concerned? Idea can wait one

:27:59. > :28:01.more time. Surely he's got to concede this is not the back of a

:28:02. > :28:11.backpacker policy but this Government is doing the sensible

:28:12. > :28:16.thing and collecting the data into a proper exercise on assisted housing

:28:17. > :28:21.with an impact assessment and also put aside almost ?500 million for

:28:22. > :28:26.housing payments and the changes will not come into effect until

:28:27. > :28:33.April 20 18. Surely that is a sensible policy? We have not seen

:28:34. > :28:37.information evidence and quite honestly, what about the information

:28:38. > :28:42.or evidence, why on earth is the Chancellor has made this decision in

:28:43. > :28:45.the spending review before Christmas, pre-empting exactly what

:28:46. > :28:50.good policy and decision-making should be based on? On the basis

:28:51. > :28:56.that he has not seen evidence, why has he called the debate at this

:28:57. > :29:00.point in time? I have called this debate with my honourable friend to

:29:01. > :29:03.give voice to the concerns that are widespread, to try and pick the

:29:04. > :29:11.Government think again and to say that it must exempt and I will come

:29:12. > :29:18.onto it in a moment, why this is an urgent and immediate decision but

:29:19. > :29:22.ministers face. The Chancellor's decision, by way of explanation

:29:23. > :29:28.about why this is going to work in this way, caps the housing benefit

:29:29. > :29:33.for social tenants at the new rate. The same level as private rented

:29:34. > :29:38.tenants currently receive what the local housing allowance. For most

:29:39. > :29:44.housing association homes this will not cause tenants any immediate

:29:45. > :29:50.concerns as the Reds are lower. Specialist housing services and

:29:51. > :29:54.schemes, which provide essential care and support, have higher

:29:55. > :29:58.housing costs, with the higher rates and service charges often covered by

:29:59. > :30:05.housing benefit. The Government zero best from their own report in 2011.

:30:06. > :30:11.It listed the main reasons and I quote, providing 24 hour housing

:30:12. > :30:16.management cover, more housing related support, more frequent

:30:17. > :30:20.repairs or refurbishment, more frequent mediating between tenants

:30:21. > :30:28.and providing CCTV and security services. This is why rents in these

:30:29. > :30:32.types of accommodation do not mirror the rates in general private rented

:30:33. > :30:38.accommodation in the local area. But this is the level of the

:30:39. > :30:49.Chancellor's at and cap. I will give way. He will know that in Nottingham

:30:50. > :30:54.in the housing charity Framework have been appalled at the potential

:30:55. > :30:57.impact this change will have on their supported accommodation for

:30:58. > :31:03.some of the most vulnerable people in my constituency. There are

:31:04. > :31:09.hundreds of spaces that they say will have to close by 2018 if this

:31:10. > :31:13.change goes ahead. This is a very real problem facing some of the most

:31:14. > :31:17.deprived and vulnerable people in our country and I applaud the fact

:31:18. > :31:24.she has called this position in the debate today. I thank my honourable

:31:25. > :31:27.friend and applaud his effort to talk to those providers in his

:31:28. > :31:33.constituency and safety fears that Framework have expressed are widely

:31:34. > :31:38.held amongst providers who offer this type of housing and support. I

:31:39. > :31:47.don't know what the figures he has got to are, but Almost Like six

:31:48. > :31:52.figures in Birmingham that expose the shortfall. The average rent in a

:31:53. > :31:57.homeless hostel is about ?180 per week. The local housing allowance

:31:58. > :32:10.rate in Birmingham is half of that at ?98.87. The local housing

:32:11. > :32:17.allowance rate for a room in a shared house is just ?57.30 a week,

:32:18. > :32:24.a shortfall of over ?120 per week their tenants. This supported

:32:25. > :32:29.housing is not just an emergency bed or a roof over their head, it helps

:32:30. > :32:36.people get their lives back together. Last year, 1500, two out

:32:37. > :32:41.of every five of the people at Saint Mungo 's house in the hostels, moved

:32:42. > :32:47.on from supported housing into their own accommodation. Saint Vincent's

:32:48. > :32:51.the Manchester -based housing charity, and 15 of the young

:32:52. > :32:58.residents don't on to university, one to Oxford. For thousands of

:32:59. > :33:03.autism, learning disabilities, autism, learning disabilities,

:33:04. > :33:06.dementia, mental illness, living as independently as possible in

:33:07. > :33:14.supported housing, there is no alternative. Other than hospital or

:33:15. > :33:16.residential care. Much more institutionalised what the

:33:17. > :33:23.residents, much more expensive for the taxpayer. This policy risks

:33:24. > :33:34.turning back the clock on people's the lives and standard of care by 40

:33:35. > :33:37.years. She has illustrated some people for whom the alternative may

:33:38. > :33:42.be much more expensive and less adequate care but there are other

:33:43. > :33:47.people such as the woman fleeing domestic violence with their

:33:48. > :33:50.children who come to a very good centre of accommodation in my

:33:51. > :33:54.constituency who will literally have no alternative at all to go to if

:33:55. > :33:59.these places are closed down by these measures. My honourable friend

:34:00. > :34:06.understands this better than perhaps any anyone else in this house. There

:34:07. > :34:11.is no alternative to the supported housing that many of the most

:34:12. > :34:14.vulnerable people need and how this housing at present have available

:34:15. > :34:18.and this is why we see in this debate that ministers must act

:34:19. > :34:24.immediately to exempt supported housing in full from these cuts and

:34:25. > :34:29.must undertake detailed consultation with providers on how such housing

:34:30. > :34:33.can be secured in the future. Before Christmas I revealed the skill of

:34:34. > :34:39.the problems facing those in specialist supported housing and

:34:40. > :34:45.since then dot-macro carry on to anyone. Since then we have had a

:34:46. > :34:50.series of half baked statements from the Government. First, this is

:34:51. > :34:54.unnecessary scare mongering. We are giving voice to the warnings and

:34:55. > :35:00.evidence of those who have the facts and will have to manage the

:35:01. > :35:08.consequences. Organisations the British public trust and emotional

:35:09. > :35:15.respect. Asian UK, Women's eight. Second, nothing will change until

:35:16. > :35:22.2018. Not true. The cut at the tap up like the new tenancies from April

:35:23. > :35:29.this year. The problem is immediate. My own local housing association

:35:30. > :35:35.tell me, it takes time to the house anyone. Let alone the most

:35:36. > :35:41.vulnerable people. Consultation on closures, they say, must begin

:35:42. > :35:47.within a matter of weeks. 01 will sign contracts for supported housing

:35:48. > :35:52.when don't know if the basic costs can be covered. New investment has

:35:53. > :35:56.already been stopped in its tracks. One in five providers have frozen

:35:57. > :36:06.new investment and new schemes according to the insight housing

:36:07. > :36:13.survey. Mencap up plans for much investment over the next five years

:36:14. > :36:15.and that has been scrapped. Fondling, I quote, additional

:36:16. > :36:21.discretionary housing payment funding will be made available to

:36:22. > :36:24.local authorities to protect the most vulnerable, including those in

:36:25. > :36:32.supported accommodation. Lot through. This fund is run by

:36:33. > :36:38.councils to deal with emergency applications for people already

:36:39. > :36:44.coping with the bedroom tax, benefits cap and cuts to housing

:36:45. > :36:52.allowance in the last Parliament. It is currently ?120 million a year and

:36:53. > :37:01.it is a short-term overstretched an lady. The Autumn Statement and

:37:02. > :37:09.policy costing document scores the cost of the Chancellor's housing

:37:10. > :37:14.benefit cut at ?515 million. I much of the Government proposing to top

:37:15. > :37:22.up discretionary housing payment is funded by? Lot 515 million, but ?70

:37:23. > :37:27.million. Housing organisations quite rightly dismiss this idea that the

:37:28. > :37:34.bond is the solution as nonsense and unworkable.

:37:35. > :37:43.I want to ask my honourable friend on that point. The insufficiency of

:37:44. > :37:51.discretionary housing payment is her bedroom tax have been shown time and

:37:52. > :37:54.time again. Does my right honourable friend agree how much it pays

:37:55. > :38:02.remains of vulnerable people when they know that the facing the sort

:38:03. > :38:07.of situation. They have to apply for the discretionary payment and may

:38:08. > :38:13.not get it. I think my honourable friend is talking about the court

:38:14. > :38:17.case, which run the government in breach of equality legislation. We

:38:18. > :38:21.always said the bedroom tax was unclear. It was punishing for those

:38:22. > :38:25.who could not make up the difference. I hope the High Court

:38:26. > :38:30.judgment today will lead ministers to think again about the bedroom tax

:38:31. > :38:34.as well as acting to stop this housing benefit bill damaging the

:38:35. > :38:42.prospect of so many people. The question for the housing minister

:38:43. > :38:46.and the Secretary of State is this, did they discuss this cart with

:38:47. > :38:59.Treasury ministers before the spending review? Will the department

:39:00. > :39:04.even consulted? Either way, did the spotted or stop it? Either way, we

:39:05. > :39:10.have the department which has been disregarded and overridden by the

:39:11. > :39:15.Chancellor. And we have the housing minister here today. He is trying to

:39:16. > :39:23.explain why housing schemes support more than 150,000 of the most

:39:24. > :39:30.vulnerable people in the country. The real culprit keeps his head down

:39:31. > :39:34.in the Treasury. Forced to backtrack on tax credits, when it stands on

:39:35. > :39:41.benefits like fire, the Chancellor Tom to benefits. Cuts across the

:39:42. > :39:47.board to make his fiscal sums add up. And with this, he has made the

:39:48. > :39:54.same error of judgment. It is not the politics of good policy or a

:39:55. > :39:59.basic humanity. He announces first and asks questions later and he is

:40:00. > :40:02.feeling very vulnerable people and the taxpayer, as well. This is a big

:40:03. > :40:10.test for the Conservative government. The Prime Minister said

:40:11. > :40:15.just before the election, I do not want to leave anyone behind. The

:40:16. > :40:20.test of a good society is regular cast of the elderly, the Friel, the

:40:21. > :40:26.vulnerable, the purist in our society. Will the government

:40:27. > :40:35.confirmed today that they will exempt in fool from this crude

:40:36. > :40:42.sweeping housing benefit cut, those in supported and sheltered housing?

:40:43. > :40:47.And will rework those who provide the hosting to make sure it is

:40:48. > :40:54.secure for the future? I move this motion before the house today. The

:40:55. > :41:07.only decision to take from ministers is a decision to exempt, a decision

:41:08. > :41:13.which would be based on compression and clear. The question is is on the

:41:14. > :41:21.order paper. I: the minister. Thank you Mr Speaker. I stand before you

:41:22. > :41:25.grateful for the subject chosen by the opposition for today's debate.

:41:26. > :41:31.We are always on the side of the hose happy to discuss welfare reform

:41:32. > :41:35.because it is at the heart of the government agenda and we make no

:41:36. > :41:40.apology for our commitment on it to the people of Britain. We need to

:41:41. > :41:46.balance the books and introduced the welfare system which is free to

:41:47. > :41:51.taxpayers. We are having a job is always preferable to having a life

:41:52. > :41:56.on benefits. We have to be remained as of the honourable gentleman is in

:41:57. > :42:02.a vacuum. We have to be remained where he has come from. In the

:42:03. > :42:08.theme, in 2010, we inherited that welfare system that field to be

:42:09. > :42:14.walked work, product taxpayers and was a millstone around the neck of

:42:15. > :42:19.the British economy. In 15 years of Labour government, welfare spending

:42:20. > :42:27.shot up by 60% in real terms. Many people spent the last decade trapped

:42:28. > :42:33.in out of work benefits. It was costing taxpayers an extra ?3000 a

:42:34. > :42:37.year each. Was my honourable friend surprised as I was when he does

:42:38. > :42:42.opposite number talking about good policy when the last ten years of

:42:43. > :42:47.the Labour government, housing benefit increased by 46% in real

:42:48. > :42:54.terms. How would that be to him and to be good policy? My honourable

:42:55. > :43:00.friend makes a very powerful point in a way that the last Labour

:43:01. > :43:04.government trapped people into that dependency, while we want to get

:43:05. > :43:10.them out of the poll giving a fair deal to the British taxpayer. My

:43:11. > :43:22.honourable friend likely that the contribution from the front bench as

:43:23. > :43:29.long flannel but short on facts. There will be long-term benefits

:43:30. > :43:34.from capping housing benefit. My honourable friend highlights some of

:43:35. > :43:42.the problems with the opposition viewpoint. The Field to look at the

:43:43. > :43:48.entire picture. I will give way. With the Minister confirm that the

:43:49. > :43:53.last Coalition Government spent ?130 billion more than the previous

:43:54. > :43:58.Labour government on welfare, reaching ?1 trillion for the first

:43:59. > :44:02.time under any government. That is a fact. I think the honourable

:44:03. > :44:07.gentleman has highlighted the terrible mess the Coalition

:44:08. > :44:12.Government inherited. It highlights that there was simply no fearless in

:44:13. > :44:17.a system like that for hard-working taxpayers. There was nothing

:44:18. > :44:22.progressive about trapping people in these lives. There will free a

:44:23. > :44:27.system that was left to others was broken. They have opposed every

:44:28. > :44:31.decision we have taken to fix it. We have never hear proposals for

:44:32. > :44:37.alternatives, which can only mean they oppose making any difficult

:44:38. > :44:40.decisions whatsoever. It is easy to make noise, it is very hard to do

:44:41. > :44:49.the right thing by the British people. We have seen one tactic time

:44:50. > :44:54.and time again, scaremongering and exploiting the fears of these

:44:55. > :45:04.people. This debate debate today is no exception. I will give way. If he

:45:05. > :45:08.wants a specific proposal to save housing benefit, why did you not

:45:09. > :45:13.look at the ?4.6 billion lost and rising from fraud and error in the

:45:14. > :45:18.administration of the housing benefit system. Why does he not get

:45:19. > :45:22.a better grip on? They could introduce better credit ratings.

:45:23. > :45:27.That is really saving should be made, not on the back of the most

:45:28. > :45:31.vulnerable people in our society. We are very clear about protecting the

:45:32. > :45:37.most vulnerable people in society. We need to crack down on fraud and.

:45:38. > :45:43.The last Labour government did absolutely nothing to do on that

:45:44. > :45:52.subject. Will he remained the house that the government is issuing 100

:45:53. > :46:03.billion to be allocated to local authorities for housing benefit. My

:46:04. > :46:09.honourable friend makes a good point. I would see it is slightly

:46:10. > :46:17.better, it is a which is coming better, it is a which is coming

:46:18. > :46:23.through. This highlights what the government as a clear focus on the

:46:24. > :46:29.issue. With the honourable friend she my surprise that until we had

:46:30. > :46:33.from the Shadow Chancellor, in listening for 25 minutes, we had not

:46:34. > :46:38.hear any suggestions that housing benefit was now an issue that any

:46:39. > :46:42.responsible Chancellor of the Exchequer would have to work out. We

:46:43. > :46:49.spend more on housing benefit in this country than we do on secondary

:46:50. > :46:53.education. 50% of what we spend on a defence budget. No responsible

:46:54. > :46:58.Chancellor would not be losing sleep about housing benefit and wanting to

:46:59. > :47:03.reform it. My honourable friend makes another very clear and

:47:04. > :47:08.important point. In the last six years, they have said nothing

:47:09. > :47:13.constructive about how to deal with the issues for the benefit of the

:47:14. > :47:18.taxpayer. This government has always been clear that the most vulnerable

:47:19. > :47:26.will be supported throughout welfare reform. We know he will free system

:47:27. > :47:29.is vital to supporting them. It is essential that all vulnerable people

:47:30. > :47:37.have a roof over the ahead and that is why we are determined to support

:47:38. > :47:45.the housing needs. We set aside ?500 million to create a safety net. The

:47:46. > :47:54.increase for abuse victims shows our commitment. ?400 million to deliver

:47:55. > :48:00.specialist affordable homes for the vulnerable, elderly or those with

:48:01. > :48:09.disabilities. We are funding up to 7500 specialist homes for older and

:48:10. > :48:15.vulnerable people. By 2020, we will be spending at least ?10 million a

:48:16. > :48:20.year extra over and above inflation, including a record ?11.4 billion a

:48:21. > :48:24.year on mental health, which we can do because of the stronger economy

:48:25. > :48:32.of which this Chancellor was brought to the country. He is giving out

:48:33. > :48:37.statistics about how much money that pretty government has put aside I

:48:38. > :48:43.will spend. I ask a straight question. The people sub currently

:48:44. > :48:49.unsupported housing, will be protected, they will not be toughed

:48:50. > :48:53.out and made homeless? As I have outlined, we will make sure that the

:48:54. > :48:57.most vulnerable people are protected. That is what the welfare

:48:58. > :49:08.system is all about. I will give way. When he talks about women's

:49:09. > :49:14.refuges, the manager of my local women's aid, she said that there is

:49:15. > :49:19.no doubt that the situation with housing benefit is already stretched

:49:20. > :49:25.to the maximum. The reality is we would be unable to find refuge

:49:26. > :49:32.provision of this went ahead. What does the Minister city to the

:49:33. > :49:37.manager, who provides the brilliant service for vulnerable women and

:49:38. > :49:44.children in a desperate situation. There's an extra ?40 million coming

:49:45. > :49:48.through for abuse services. The funding for supported housing as

:49:49. > :49:56.part of the wider settlement for councils. This includes ?5.3 billion

:49:57. > :50:02.for the better clear funds. This is to give deeper integration of

:50:03. > :50:05.housing and social care. This will help intervene in early action so

:50:06. > :50:12.that people can remain in their own houses for longer. The Minister

:50:13. > :50:17.talking about the better clear front, they are seeing the money

:50:18. > :50:21.will not reach the councils. New home bonuses are being taken back at

:50:22. > :50:29.the same time. They have already lost a lot of support for vulnerable

:50:30. > :50:38.people. Does he believe that the most vulnerable will be supported.

:50:39. > :50:45.That is simply not true. How older people will be protected. I would

:50:46. > :50:52.ask the Minister to not talk about discretionary housing payments,

:50:53. > :50:56.because they have been shown to be irrelevant. She is talking about the

:50:57. > :51:02.new money coming through. I would say with regard to supported homes,

:51:03. > :51:06.our affordable homes programme delivered 6% more homes than the

:51:07. > :51:11.other Labour's equivalent ever did. The supported housing sector is read

:51:12. > :51:15.in the lead. All the varied types of provision have one thing in common,

:51:16. > :51:19.they all provide dedicated support for some of the country's most

:51:20. > :51:26.vulnerable people. I will just make some progress.

:51:27. > :51:32.You many supported housing tenants have multiple physical and mental

:51:33. > :51:38.health problems, histories of offending and dependency issues.

:51:39. > :51:42.They may be elderly, socially isolated and these barriers to

:51:43. > :51:46.employment or living independently. But social housing can also reduce

:51:47. > :51:51.the cost to the wider public sector. I am sure this whole House would

:51:52. > :51:56.agree we want all our families, friends and constituents to live

:51:57. > :52:02.fulfilling lives and where possible in their own home. Some people need

:52:03. > :52:07.more help to do that. Supported housing gets them that assistance,

:52:08. > :52:12.it provides safety and stability, helps people get their lives in

:52:13. > :52:13.order, improves their health and well-being and gives them a platform

:52:14. > :52:20.to reach their full potential. We to reach their full potential. We

:52:21. > :52:26.have been out for ourselves seeing the different supported housing can

:52:27. > :52:30.make. Homeless hostels such as one in Plymouth I visited where they

:52:31. > :52:34.provide accommodation but also valuable opportunities for people in

:52:35. > :52:41.recovery. The same is true for specialised housing for older and

:52:42. > :52:46.disabled people. Or the residents to fight delighted with their homes but

:52:47. > :52:50.allow them to maintain independence. Their only regret was they had not

:52:51. > :53:00.moved in sooner. One of my colleagues also has seen how

:53:01. > :53:03.domestic abuse victims and programmes are helping women for the

:53:04. > :53:07.terrible abuse and violent relationships. Protecting the most

:53:08. > :53:09.vulnerable in society and supporting the housing needs is as much a

:53:10. > :53:14.priority as driving down the deficit priority as driving down the deficit

:53:15. > :53:24.and there need be no contradiction between these two games. Last week I

:53:25. > :53:27.visited in my constituency somewhere that provide a brilliant support for

:53:28. > :53:32.young people who would otherwise be homeless. They have expressed their

:53:33. > :53:38.grave concerns to me about the impact of the withdrawal of housing

:53:39. > :53:42.benefit for 16 to 21-year-olds, both in relation to the man for the

:53:43. > :53:47.services and also on young people who are ready to move on but won't

:53:48. > :53:54.be able to access housing benefit for the homes they need. How does

:53:55. > :53:57.the minister after that point? I think there was a intervention in

:53:58. > :54:05.that speech and I would say to the honourable lady she had experience

:54:06. > :54:08.something I experienced and the excellent work these organisations

:54:09. > :54:13.do and that is why it is important we help the lot of vulnerable in

:54:14. > :54:19.society. Is the difference between the two sides when talking about

:54:20. > :54:25.helping disabled people, that we have got 339,000 disabled people

:54:26. > :54:30.into work. In 2010 the party opposite provided of a situation

:54:31. > :54:36.where 70% on disability allowance had never been reassessed. My

:54:37. > :54:38.honourable friend highlights the difference between the two parties

:54:39. > :54:41.in making sure we get a deal that in making sure we get a deal that

:54:42. > :54:46.will direct the most vulnerable in society, gives an aspirational

:54:47. > :54:53.opportunities to move forward whilst getting a fair and proper deal for

:54:54. > :54:56.the hard-working taxpayer. And the Autumn Statement we announce social

:54:57. > :55:01.sector rents eligible for housing benefit will be limited to the level

:55:02. > :55:04.of the relevant local housing along is a great including shared

:55:05. > :55:08.accommodation rates for single clone is under 35 who do not have

:55:09. > :55:16.dependent children. This will be effective from April 2018. I know

:55:17. > :55:22.this has raised some concerns so let me be clear. We will always protect

:55:23. > :55:26.and make sure we ensure appropriate protection for the most vulnerable

:55:27. > :55:29.in supported housing and will work closely with the sector to be

:55:30. > :55:37.supported housing review to make sure we do that in exactly the right

:55:38. > :55:42.way. You rightly recognised the importance of supported and special

:55:43. > :55:47.housing and he has now indicated somehow the Government will protect

:55:48. > :55:52.people in the circumstances. Can he give any indication how that will be

:55:53. > :55:55.done and when these measures will be announced given up housing

:55:56. > :55:59.plan for potential changes in 2018 plan for potential changes in 2018

:56:00. > :56:06.that could lead to the of existing accommodation? The honourable

:56:07. > :56:12.gentleman has asked me to continue because I was going to come on to

:56:13. > :56:15.say that, as I'm sure he will appreciate, one of our underlying

:56:16. > :56:21.principles that are the bedrock of the policy formation. The honourable

:56:22. > :56:25.gentleman himself urges us to know the concerns of supported housing

:56:26. > :56:30.providers, so let me reassure all members that we have been listening

:56:31. > :56:35.and will continue to very carefully listen to the concerns of supported

:56:36. > :56:41.housing providers. My colleagues and myself have met with representatives

:56:42. > :56:45.of the National Housing Association and others to provide a supportive

:56:46. > :56:48.housing and listen carefully to all these representations and noted

:56:49. > :56:52.everything we have been told. We know the cost of supported housing

:56:53. > :57:00.provision are higher and general housing needs and providers rely on

:57:01. > :57:09.benefit funding for various aspects of this. I just wonder if she could

:57:10. > :57:14.point out how exactly he has been helping to protect the most

:57:15. > :57:17.vulnerable in the study for a specialist within's refugees that

:57:18. > :57:23.have already shut since the Conservatives came to power? Would

:57:24. > :57:26.you also like to join me later in meeting pretty much every CEO from

:57:27. > :57:30.all the woman's aid across the country to see what the thing? Am

:57:31. > :57:38.slightly surprised in the honourable ladys comments. She might want to

:57:39. > :57:41.talk to colleagues about the fact they made illegal in before and I

:57:42. > :57:49.will always be the chairman of the select committee 's intervention.

:57:50. > :57:53.Mike Department Art commission a fact-finding review of the sector

:57:54. > :57:58.that will report by the end of March and deepen our knowledge and

:57:59. > :58:03.understanding. The research has included extensive consultation with

:58:04. > :58:07.local authorities and all categories of supported housing providers,

:58:08. > :58:11.charities, housing associations or the commercial sector. This will

:58:12. > :58:23.provide us with a better picture of the supported housing accommodation

:58:24. > :58:27.sector. In the meantime, the 1% production will be deferred for 12

:58:28. > :58:28.months for supported accommodation. We will get the findings of this

:58:29. > :58:33.review in the spring and work with review in the spring and work with

:58:34. > :58:38.the sector to ensure essential services they deliver continue to be

:58:39. > :58:43.provided whilst protecting the taxpayer, making sure we make best

:58:44. > :58:48.use of the taxpayer's money and meet Government's fiscal commitments. We

:58:49. > :58:53.will look urgently at this to provide certainty for the sector. I

:58:54. > :58:59.thank the Minister for giving way and setting out the next steps. Can

:59:00. > :59:03.I put it politely to him though that he ought to have done this research

:59:04. > :59:09.before making the announcement in the first place, and can he now also

:59:10. > :59:14.help the house to give certainty to those housing providers, precisely

:59:15. > :59:19.implemented to offset the changes in implemented to offset the changes in

:59:20. > :59:24.housing benefit? I would say to the honourable gentleman that the mess

:59:25. > :59:27.the last Labour Government lest this country and financially means we

:59:28. > :59:31.must take difficult decisions and moved quickly to ensure taxpayers

:59:32. > :59:35.working with a Chancellor who sees working with a Chancellor who sees

:59:36. > :59:41.that as one of first and foremost duties. Can either the on the side

:59:42. > :59:44.of the house to warmly welcomed the announcement might right honourable

:59:45. > :59:49.friend made. It makes eminent sense to postpone this decision for one

:59:50. > :59:56.year until the basis of proper evidence and fact and this report is

:59:57. > :00:03.published in March. After that can't get them come to conclusions quickly

:00:04. > :00:06.on the matter. There is a lot of uncertainty in the sector and I urge

:00:07. > :00:10.him to rapidly come to conclusions after the review is finished? As my

:00:11. > :00:13.honourable friend rightly says we will be looking to work urgently

:00:14. > :00:23.with the sector when the review comes in to provide certainty. Out

:00:24. > :00:27.well, this partial step an indication of progress. It has taken

:00:28. > :00:32.Labour to post this debate in order to get ministers today 12 month

:00:33. > :00:38.backward step on the reduction in rents. But what about the cuts to

:00:39. > :00:43.housing benefit for supported and sheltered housing? A pause is not

:00:44. > :00:48.enough. It will not remove the alarm or anxiety of residence, nor the

:00:49. > :00:54.uncertainty for providers, it will not stop the scheme that have

:00:55. > :00:57.already been scrapped. Will he now announced that today? It's almost

:00:58. > :01:04.like the honourable gentleman forgets that while he was a minister

:01:05. > :01:08.that the Government of that time actually was the Government that

:01:09. > :01:12.removed the spare room subsidy was done under Labour into the private

:01:13. > :01:18.sector and created this unfairness and we now see. I will not stand

:01:19. > :01:21.here and taking lecture from this Government do the right thing to

:01:22. > :01:25.deliver the right outcomes and do what we have always said the other,

:01:26. > :01:34.to protect the most vulnerable in society, whilst Labour simply want

:01:35. > :01:42.to get a headline by scaremongering. Can equal hugely welcome the except

:01:43. > :01:52.German as a real meaningful announcement -- the exception. The

:01:53. > :01:55.money for victims of domestic violence is also hugely welcome,

:01:56. > :02:04.rather than the political point scoring from the opposition wheeled

:02:05. > :02:08.her today. My honourable friend highlights the difference between

:02:09. > :02:17.the two parties. Could he just confirm that, as examples of those

:02:18. > :02:20.who will benefit from this exception for the 1% of introduction during

:02:21. > :02:27.this year of consideration, will include those for being the most the

:02:28. > :02:31.abuse, housing for ex-offenders as well as supportive housing. Does he

:02:32. > :02:35.recognise how much this will be welcome but also paid tribute to

:02:36. > :02:42.those working with him on this, like the homeless Link in Mongo's? My

:02:43. > :02:51.honourable friend makes a very good boy and there are a huge number of

:02:52. > :02:55.people who provide vital services and that's my coordinator at the

:02:56. > :02:58.right protections are in place for the most vulnerable. This Government

:02:59. > :03:03.will always protect the most vulnerable and provide them with the

:03:04. > :03:06.support they need. We are a one nation Government and want everyone

:03:07. > :03:11.to have the opportunity to live happy and fulfilling lives. We want

:03:12. > :03:17.workers to earn a living wage and benefit from our strong economic

:03:18. > :03:20.growth. We want to support aspiration and boost productivity,

:03:21. > :03:25.reward work of welfare and allow people to keep more of the money

:03:26. > :03:30.they have earned. To keep moving from a low wage, high tax, high

:03:31. > :03:37.welfare economy to a high wage law will the country, and in this

:03:38. > :03:41.journey we will always support of vulnerable people and make sure they

:03:42. > :03:46.have a safe hall to live in. The whole House should be supporting

:03:47. > :03:50.this but instead the party opposite result of their favourite tactic of

:03:51. > :03:56.scaremongering for a political headline. It is time to stop that

:03:57. > :04:00.kind of poor politics and time to stop playing politics with the lives

:04:01. > :04:04.of vulnerable people. While we are helping working to provide the

:04:05. > :04:11.support they need and deserve and we will provide. Can I remind

:04:12. > :04:21.honourable members there will be speech limit of six minutes. I rise

:04:22. > :04:26.to support the motion in the name of the shadow front bench. The starting

:04:27. > :04:31.point regarding issues surrounding housing benefit was a decision made

:04:32. > :04:35.a couple of months ago at the legislative committee to freeze

:04:36. > :04:39.housing benefit for four years. Once again a decision has been taken by a

:04:40. > :04:45.delegated legislative committee that should have been made and debated in

:04:46. > :04:49.this House and I am glad to see the Independent newspaper has started to

:04:50. > :04:53.highlight that mechanism that the Government are doing and bringing

:04:54. > :05:01.its most damaging policies that affect the country. I represent a

:05:02. > :05:06.constituency with 40% of homes are in the social rented sector and 10%

:05:07. > :05:11.in the private rented sector, so any changes in housing benefit will have

:05:12. > :05:15.an impact. What has been more startling in the proposed changes

:05:16. > :05:18.from the Government if they have not produced any statistics on the

:05:19. > :05:25.number of housing benefit claimants who receive this benefit to pay for

:05:26. > :05:30.supported accommodation. They are proposing to cap the more benefit

:05:31. > :05:35.without low knowledge of how this affects those in sheltered

:05:36. > :05:40.accommodation. There are no statistics available for the number

:05:41. > :05:44.of residents in sheltered housing in receipt of full or partial housing

:05:45. > :05:51.benefit. The Government was asked for the thrill figures for the

:05:52. > :05:58.councils in England who participate in such a scheme and they answered

:05:59. > :06:04.they do not hold this information. This information should be available

:06:05. > :06:08.through the evidence review commission and the Department for

:06:09. > :06:14.Work Pensions. If the Government don't know the impact on why make

:06:15. > :06:19.the change? This Tory Government must halt their continued assault on

:06:20. > :06:24.housing benefit in order to ensure those who supported housing are not

:06:25. > :06:27.literally left out in the cold. Supportive housing provides a vital

:06:28. > :06:33.help to tens of thousands of people and plays a crucial role in securing

:06:34. > :06:37.a safe home and supports people to live independently. Supportive

:06:38. > :06:42.housing provides support for older people to maintain independent

:06:43. > :06:45.lives, provide emergency refuge for victims of domestic violence,

:06:46. > :06:50.helping stabilise their lives and to engage with other services they

:06:51. > :06:59.require. Supportive housing providers work with homeless people

:07:00. > :07:02.with complex needs and help them make the transition from life on the

:07:03. > :07:07.streets to a set of home, education, training and employment. In my

:07:08. > :07:12.constituency accurately what the charity whose support military

:07:13. > :07:16.veterans who are homeless, who have struggled to meet the challenge of

:07:17. > :07:22.civilian life, having served in our Armed Forces. Supportive housing

:07:23. > :07:26.assist people with mental health needs to support the life and live

:07:27. > :07:31.more independently, supports people with learning disabilities in the

:07:32. > :07:35.long supplies independent living and exercise more choice and control

:07:36. > :07:39.over their lives. The stark reality is any change to housing benefit and

:07:40. > :07:43.undermine the ability of such tenants to pay the rent, thereby

:07:44. > :07:47.putting their home at risk, threatening physical and mental

:07:48. > :07:48.well-being, as well as posing a threat to the financial stability

:07:49. > :08:02.housing associations. Single people under 35 will lose out

:08:03. > :08:07.as well. The Institute for Fiscal Studies concluded that the savings

:08:08. > :08:15.arising out of this measure would be short-term and small. The longer

:08:16. > :08:20.term impact is expected to be more significant of applied to all social

:08:21. > :08:29.tenants. Housing benefits would be cut by 1.1 billion. With 800,000

:08:30. > :08:37.households would lose an average of ?1300 a year. An insider housing

:08:38. > :08:43.article from the 1st of January this year said that 95% of supported

:08:44. > :08:54.housing applicants would be forced to close the schemes. They pointed

:08:55. > :08:58.to the potential financial impact based on a small-scale piece of

:08:59. > :09:03.research with its members in the weeks since the Autumn Statement.

:09:04. > :09:06.The proposed changes would have a devastating effect on future

:09:07. > :09:12.provision of refuge accommodation in Scotland. It is the ownership of the

:09:13. > :09:23.housing associations and local authorities. LHA Rates do not take

:09:24. > :09:33.on the extra cost from landlords and the associated costs. There are

:09:34. > :09:37.additional costs for refuge for women and children escaping domestic

:09:38. > :09:42.violence. There are added cost because of the cases nature of the

:09:43. > :09:48.situation. There are also variable lengths of stay and rapid turnover.

:09:49. > :09:51.That is a need for increased safety and security measures and the

:09:52. > :10:01.provision of furniture and equipment. The role/communal rooms

:10:02. > :10:08.for counselling and rooms for children. It was found that in all

:10:09. > :10:12.cases, the service charge costs are significantly higher than the

:10:13. > :10:20.current rate. One rural area, linked to a in the area, would result in an

:10:21. > :10:25.annual loss of ?5,800 for a two-bedroom refuge flat. In another

:10:26. > :10:33.urban area, the loss for a one-bedroom flat would be ?7,100.

:10:34. > :10:40.Easy immediate action an urban area, the loss is ?11,600 every year. In

:10:41. > :10:45.each case, the financial cost could be multiplied by the number of

:10:46. > :10:50.refuge spaces. Without the existing level of housing benefit to cover

:10:51. > :10:57.costs, many of these refuges would be forced to close. It is estimated

:10:58. > :11:03.that 62% of housing association residents require assistance to pay

:11:04. > :11:09.rent. You make an important point about protecting refuges. Is it not

:11:10. > :11:20.the case that in Scotland, housing is devolved the host Scottish Common

:11:21. > :11:24.protects general stock, funds new combination. We need to demolition

:11:25. > :11:32.of housing benefit to square the circle. I do agree with that. It is

:11:33. > :11:41.something that the Scottish National party are pursuing is the fool the

:11:42. > :11:45.evolving of housing benefit. The proposed change to the under 35 she

:11:46. > :11:49.opposing rate would see younger people struggling to pay their rent

:11:50. > :11:58.and seek policewomen under the age of 35 at much greater risk of being

:11:59. > :12:03.unable to pay. The single person aged under 35 relying on housing

:12:04. > :12:12.benefit would face a weekly shop feel of ?323 a year. This would

:12:13. > :12:18.translate into a rental loss of ?2.8 million per year for housing

:12:19. > :12:20.associations in Scotland. The housing association also comment

:12:21. > :12:33.that this is a conservative estimate, as of August of last year,

:12:34. > :12:40.they are already 67,400 claimants in Scotland to our under the age of 35.

:12:41. > :12:45.If women under the age of 35 are unable to access accommodation or

:12:46. > :12:54.move into the Roman tendency, it is effectively preventing them from

:12:55. > :12:59.leaving an abuse of partnership. In 2014-2015, the eatery and had the

:13:00. > :13:12.highest range of domestic abuse recorded by Polly Scotland. -- the

:13:13. > :13:25.herd. Police Scotland. Would he agree that issues of universal

:13:26. > :13:29.credit the split is compounding the action by not having a refuge to go

:13:30. > :13:44.to? That combines the original error. Discretionary housing

:13:45. > :13:49.payments bring up the gap of LHA rentals are suddenly not enough in

:13:50. > :13:53.these tough Financial Times. A discretionary housing payment should

:13:54. > :13:58.be made available to local authorities. This type of

:13:59. > :14:07.discretionary funding is far too insecure and uncertainty funding

:14:08. > :14:14.mechanism to be able to maintain specialised accommodation, such as

:14:15. > :14:19.refuge accommodation. This could also create a postcode lottery. It

:14:20. > :14:21.could also keep a great deal of stress and worry for applicants,

:14:22. > :14:29.wondering if they would be successful or not. It would split up

:14:30. > :14:37.particular barriers for women and children subject to domestic abuse.

:14:38. > :14:42.In 2013, there was a commitment to petite accommodation from any

:14:43. > :14:47.unintended consequences from welfare reform. In order to ensure such

:14:48. > :14:52.fatal accommodation as predicted, the United Kingdom government must

:14:53. > :15:03.commit to exempting refuges from the spending cuts. What will be included

:15:04. > :15:12.in this is still to be decided. The future of the claimant may be even

:15:13. > :15:21.stretch further, if there are growing numbers. The changes should

:15:22. > :15:29.not go ahead and we need the support for those who need it most to how a

:15:30. > :15:33.roof over their head. The prevents people who most need help from

:15:34. > :15:37.either seeking been able to get hold of it. It could see many at risk

:15:38. > :15:42.individuals not receiving the support they need from the

:15:43. > :15:47.residential tenants. The Scottish Federation of Housing Association

:15:48. > :15:56.says the uncertainty of the allocation of the grants mean that

:15:57. > :16:02.many will be unable to take up the accommodation that the need. This

:16:03. > :16:11.could lead to a vicious cycle of tenants not accessing the refuge

:16:12. > :16:16.property. I thank him for giving way it one more time. Is it not contrary

:16:17. > :16:29.to see that we will protect the most vulnerable by providing additional

:16:30. > :16:39.DHP? Schuler mini to make these people exempt from the proposals. I

:16:40. > :16:44.agree. It is interesting from the answer the minister gave to the

:16:45. > :16:48.Labour front that was no mention of the additional costs applying to the

:16:49. > :16:58.health service or other social services. There could be a higher

:16:59. > :17:03.cost in future. These proposed cuts come in the context of additional

:17:04. > :17:08.conservative restrictions to housing benefit to some of the most

:17:09. > :17:13.disadvantaged people in society. The Chancellor announced the removal of

:17:14. > :17:20.entitlement of housing benefit from universal credit for young people

:17:21. > :17:24.aged 18-21 years old, with the odd exception. The rationale was to

:17:25. > :17:29.ensure that young people on the benefits system face the same

:17:30. > :17:35.situation as young people who work and may not be able to afford their

:17:36. > :17:42.own home. The measures set to receive ?40 million by the next

:17:43. > :17:45.decade. Certain young people will be exempt, including vulnerable young

:17:46. > :17:51.people, those who may not be able to return home to live with parents and

:17:52. > :17:58.those who have been in work for six months prior to making a claim.

:17:59. > :18:06.Organisation such as shelter and centrepoint said this would have a

:18:07. > :18:10.huge impact on 18-21 -year-olds. The are actively lobbying against the

:18:11. > :18:15.removal is what they describe as an essential safety net which can offer

:18:16. > :18:21.a lifeline to young people. It is only the full power of social

:18:22. > :18:26.security that we can fully protect individuals from future housing

:18:27. > :18:30.benefit cuts. In Scotland, the Smith commission recommended the polls

:18:31. > :18:37.over discretionary housing payment should be left to the Scottish

:18:38. > :18:44.Parliament. Legislation has changed so DHP that can be paid in

:18:45. > :18:48.exceptional circumstances. The commission also recommended that the

:18:49. > :18:53.Scottish Parliament had the power to VB housing costs with regard to

:18:54. > :19:02.universal credit. It would give Scottish ministers powers to the ADB

:19:03. > :19:05.amount of universal credit. This would be subject to discussion with

:19:06. > :19:13.the Secretary of State with regard to practicality. This is needed to

:19:14. > :19:23.protect people against the impact of bedroom tax. I am proud to represent

:19:24. > :19:30.a constituency rich in the study of helping and championing their less

:19:31. > :19:45.fortunate. I oppose those guilty of exploitation. We recently

:19:46. > :19:53.commemorated the centenary of a great local social justice seeker.

:19:54. > :19:59.It might have been one century ago, but we have come full circle, as

:20:00. > :20:06.exploitation is one of the most basic human needs, shelter and the

:20:07. > :20:10.history of the family is once more a key issue in this parliament. That

:20:11. > :20:17.is why I will be voting for this motion today. Thank you, Madam

:20:18. > :20:25.Deputy Speaker. I would put on record my support for the one-year

:20:26. > :20:32.moratorium. This demonstrates that the government is about listening

:20:33. > :20:38.and taking on board what is said from the key stake holders.

:20:39. > :20:42.Government is about matching policy principle and social equity with

:20:43. > :20:49.practical policy implementation. What we see from the Labour Party is

:20:50. > :20:54.the usual hysterical hand-waving, working with people in the housing

:20:55. > :21:04.sector to steal Monger and freight in the most vulnerable of tenants.

:21:05. > :21:11.But the question has to be, clear as the Labour Party policy on this?

:21:12. > :21:15.Previously coherence and the comprehensive costing? Where is the

:21:16. > :21:20.alternative? It is not clear. This is a party who voted against every

:21:21. > :21:27.single will fear of change we need in the last parliament. They allowed

:21:28. > :21:34.housing benefit to reach 140,000 for a single year. The saw a 46% rise in

:21:35. > :21:37.housing benefit. They consign millions of families to welfare

:21:38. > :21:41.dependency and director number of children in wreck house dashing

:21:42. > :21:51.workless house walls. Members opposite voted on the recent

:21:52. > :22:00.housing bill that would see higher earners in Brenda McCall

:22:01. > :22:04.associations paying more to support those in this housing. How can it be

:22:05. > :22:07.fairly working families give a direct payment effectively to other

:22:08. > :22:13.people in social housing that are not working often? That cannot be

:22:14. > :22:18.fair. We have to deal with the issue and welfare dependency. I will not

:22:19. > :22:23.give way. Why can that be fair? As my honourable friend for Solihull

:22:24. > :22:27.said, these are difficult decisions. In the short term, they would

:22:28. > :22:30.deliver to ?40 million in savings. The Institute for Fiscal Studies

:22:31. > :22:35.says that in long-term, 1.1 billion pounds. We have to do it, giving the

:22:36. > :22:42.fiscal inheritance that we have before us. Now the Government has a

:22:43. > :22:46.responsibility and a mandate from the people of this country to

:22:47. > :22:50.deliver on welfare reform. If honourable members... The member for

:22:51. > :22:56.Nottingham East is now not in his place, but if they really believed,

:22:57. > :22:59.after reading the focus group, that the Labour Party will be trusted on

:23:00. > :23:02.the economy and particularly welfare with the policies that they are

:23:03. > :23:05.pursuing... The right honourable member knows that this is the case.

:23:06. > :23:09.They are completely wrong and they have to understand that completely

:23:10. > :23:13.opposing everything the Government does on welfare reform in favour of

:23:14. > :23:17.more spending, more tax and more debt will never deliver them a

:23:18. > :23:24.majority Labour Government again. Can I just say to housing

:23:25. > :23:28.associations very gently, the 1% cut in rent will have a direct impact on

:23:29. > :23:31.all their tenants in general needs. We will see a 12% reduction in

:23:32. > :23:42.average rent by the end of this Parliament. We do spend ?13 billion

:23:43. > :23:44.per year for housing associations to discharge their duties to house

:23:45. > :23:52.people. They have to raise their game and meet the challenge. It is

:23:53. > :23:55.not often commented upon, but housing associations are not subject

:23:56. > :24:00.to the Freedom of Information Act. We need to see that they are as

:24:01. > :24:03.efficient as they can possibly be. They are very efficient when it

:24:04. > :24:08.comes to campaigning against the Government but not swordfish and on

:24:09. > :24:14.resource allocations and delivering front-line... I give way. On that

:24:15. > :24:17.very point, does he agree that in the last five years, we have

:24:18. > :24:22.actually seen large sectors in the public sector stepping up to the

:24:23. > :24:25.plate, delivering more for less, executing changes that do save the

:24:26. > :24:28.taxpayer money and help the public finances? This is something housing

:24:29. > :24:35.associations should be able to follow. I agree. We will see an

:24:36. > :24:38.impact assessment and we will see an evidence -based review across the

:24:39. > :24:44.whole of the assisted and supported housing regime. We do not know what

:24:45. > :24:48.the final decision will be at the end of this and it really is for

:24:49. > :24:53.local housing associations to stop complaining and work with planners,

:24:54. > :24:56.work with developers and other key partners in the National Health

:24:57. > :25:01.Service. I am sorry, I would love to, I have not got time. In order to

:25:02. > :25:04.deliver the projects that they want to deliver. I am not wholly

:25:05. > :25:09.supportive of the Government on this and I tell you why. There has to be

:25:10. > :25:15.a comprehensive and holistic approach to marrying the crisis, the

:25:16. > :25:20.demographic time bomb that we have of older people, of acute social

:25:21. > :25:25.care and Acute Hospital care. We have to reduce those numbers and we

:25:26. > :25:30.have to use the tax system. I want, I am afraid. The honourable ladies

:25:31. > :25:35.not taking the end but I have no time. We must use the tax system and

:25:36. > :25:43.the expertise we already have in order to deliver that. To deliver

:25:44. > :25:45.good adult social care and also care for women, for instance, who have

:25:46. > :25:54.been subject to domestic abuse. But as massive and we have that. I

:25:55. > :25:57.mentioned the discretionary housing payments earlier as well, which will

:25:58. > :26:01.assist directly the tenants. Incidentally, talking about the

:26:02. > :26:05.spare room subsidy, those were payments not always drawn down

:26:06. > :26:09.because of inefficiency in local authorities, often Labour Party

:26:10. > :26:14.once. I would say to the front bench, it is a fair point that the

:26:15. > :26:20.opposition spokesman makes. We need further clarity. It cannot be the

:26:21. > :26:25.will of the Government to make it more difficult for us to deliver

:26:26. > :26:31.more extra care facilities. We do not want to see non-viable projects

:26:32. > :26:34.going forward. That is why it is important that the Treasury, the

:26:35. > :26:40.Department for Work and Pensions and DDC LG work together to get round

:26:41. > :26:48.the table and try and work out how we can do this. But we have got a

:26:49. > :26:52.duty and responsibility to deal with the fiscal inheritance in terms of

:26:53. > :26:57.welfare spending being out of control. But we must balance that

:26:58. > :27:02.with practical, pragmatic solutions which deliver adult social care and

:27:03. > :27:09.helps the most vulnerable people in society, for whom we all care. We

:27:10. > :27:15.all care about them. Fairness and equity is important. But if we

:27:16. > :27:18.demanded tax revenue from our constituents, we must deliver value

:27:19. > :27:23.for money and that is why I will not support the Labour Party tonight and

:27:24. > :27:28.I will support the Government. Madam Deputy Speaker, we are here today

:27:29. > :27:31.for one of two reasons. Either the Government set out as a matter of

:27:32. > :27:36.deliberate Holocene to bring about the closure of special supported

:27:37. > :27:42.housing or they were not bothered whether these housing units closed.

:27:43. > :27:49.This is an unintended consequence of a wider policy about changes to

:27:50. > :27:51.housing benefit, which we got here to deal with today because he

:27:52. > :27:55.Government did not do a proper impact assessment at the beginning

:27:56. > :27:59.of the policy. We should have had that before we began the process,

:28:00. > :28:04.not when concerns have been raised, quite rightly, up and down the

:28:05. > :28:07.country about the potential impact. So I actually welcome what the

:28:08. > :28:10.Minister has said today, that a proper review will be carried out

:28:11. > :28:13.and the Government will not simply carry on with this policy and the

:28:14. > :28:22.potential consequences it can bring about. So, when we look at this, and

:28:23. > :28:25.members opposite have said that there has been political point

:28:26. > :28:32.scoring and scaremongering by those of us on the side and by the Housing

:28:33. > :28:37.Association movement in general. It is not true. When I get rung up by

:28:38. > :28:39.Tony Stacey, the respected Chief Executive of South Yorkshire Housing

:28:40. > :28:44.Association, widely respected people on both sides of the House, for the

:28:45. > :28:49.association itself and his personal commitment, he says the impact of

:28:50. > :28:55.these measures will be a ?2.8 million reduction in the income that

:28:56. > :29:01.association out of a ?20 million budget. That is a matter of major

:29:02. > :29:06.concern. That would lead to the closure of around 1000 places of

:29:07. > :29:09.supported housing and the Association, because of the

:29:10. > :29:12.financial impact, would have to start acting on those closures

:29:13. > :29:18.within the next few months, not wait for 2018. That is not

:29:19. > :29:21.scaremongering. That is financial reality for an association having to

:29:22. > :29:28.balance its books over that period of time. That is why we're here to

:29:29. > :29:31.beating the issue today. I have just one or two questions now. The

:29:32. > :29:39.Minister talked about a review by the end of March. That is a review,

:29:40. > :29:41.Wembley conclusion be reached so that there is only certainty for

:29:42. > :29:48.associations and others, including local councils, about the impact of

:29:49. > :29:52.these measures of the changed measures which hopefully the

:29:53. > :29:56.Government will bring in? And bringing about that review and

:29:57. > :30:01.coming to a conclusion, will the Government top not merely to the

:30:02. > :30:03.National Housing Act federation, but the Local Government Association as

:30:04. > :30:10.well because there are voluntary schemes involved also. All relevant

:30:11. > :30:12.parties should be consulted. Can he give an indication as to when

:30:13. > :30:18.conclusions will be breached and certainty can be brought about?

:30:19. > :30:23.Secondly, in terms of the changes for new tenants which urges are

:30:24. > :30:29.coming in April 2016, will those now be postponed? Or are we going to see

:30:30. > :30:31.new tenancies created in 2016 on the basis of the changes that are

:30:32. > :30:36.proposed at present before the review? I hope the Minister will

:30:37. > :30:40.indicate that no changes will come in and the full costs of supported

:30:41. > :30:45.housing will be covered through housing benefit for new tenancies

:30:46. > :30:52.from April 2016 until this review has concluded. And finally, I

:30:53. > :30:58.welcome what the Minister said about the rate increases for supported

:30:59. > :31:02.housing, that the 1% reduction will not go ahead next year we'll be

:31:03. > :31:09.viewed as being undertaken. Does that mean that the changes in the

:31:10. > :31:18.budget will not be implemented and D 1% reduction will not now happened?

:31:19. > :31:23.Or will read simply be frozen? There is quite a big difference for

:31:24. > :31:26.associations. Even the red changes without housing benefit changes have

:31:27. > :31:29.an impact on social housing. Can we have clarification on that? I

:31:30. > :31:33.welcome the direction the Government seems to be moving in, in a more

:31:34. > :31:39.realistic is Asian. Maybe the Executive committee will look at

:31:40. > :31:41.this as well. I hope the Minister will fully consult and take on the

:31:42. > :31:44.concerns that the Housing Association movement and local

:31:45. > :31:52.councils have. None of us want to see these units close. Thank you for

:31:53. > :31:59.calling me in on this debate. I put on record that I also welcome the

:32:00. > :32:03.announcement on the 1%. We spend more on family benefits in Britain

:32:04. > :32:06.than we do in Germany, France or Sweden and is no doubt that social

:32:07. > :32:11.housing is invaluable for hundreds of thousands of in this country who

:32:12. > :32:14.need help in getting accommodation. But it cannot be right to continue

:32:15. > :32:18.to subsidise people to live in houses that are bigger than they

:32:19. > :32:23.need whilst there are 375,000 families living in overcrowded

:32:24. > :32:26.conditions. Nor can it be right to subsidise people to live in houses

:32:27. > :32:31.that are out of reach or unaffordable for hard-working

:32:32. > :32:36.taxpayers. Page 97 of Labour's 2009 budget summarise the problem.

:32:37. > :32:39.Indications are that some claimants might be able to afford

:32:40. > :32:43.accommodation that is out of reach of working families on low incomes.

:32:44. > :32:50.Other more, costs of housing benefit have risen above inflation despite

:32:51. > :32:54.static caseloads. In fact, between 1999 in 2010, the cost of housing

:32:55. > :33:00.benefit rose by 46% in real terms, reaching 21 billion. Housing benefit

:33:01. > :33:05.was truly out-of-control, with the maximum housing benefit award

:33:06. > :33:10.reaching over ?100,000 per year. Even after the benefit cap, people

:33:11. > :33:14.can receive support up to meet of ?20,000 per year. What with the

:33:15. > :33:29.working family, paying tax, half 2am to enter a ?20,000 a year rent? 60,

:33:30. > :33:32.70, ?80,000 per year. Rents were markedly higher on average than a

:33:33. > :33:35.like-for-like property in the private sector. This is clearly

:33:36. > :33:41.unsustainable and helped fuel the something for nothing culture that

:33:42. > :33:45.provided under 13 years of Labour. 1.4 million people spent most of the

:33:46. > :33:49.previous decade trapped on out of work benefits while the number of

:33:50. > :33:52.households were not member has ever worked doubled under Labour. The

:33:53. > :33:56.announcements made in the Autumn Statement followed on from reforms

:33:57. > :33:59.in the last Parliament to better align the rules between social and

:34:00. > :34:03.private landlords, ensuring fairness between those receiving housing

:34:04. > :34:09.benefits and hard-working taxpayers who have to pay for it. Those who

:34:10. > :34:16.oppose making difficult decisions on welfare must say what they would

:34:17. > :34:18.cut... I will not give way. Those who oppose making difficult

:34:19. > :34:24.decisions on welfare must say what they would cut or what taxes we

:34:25. > :34:27.would put up to pay for it. Though it would seem for some of the

:34:28. > :34:30.current revision 's office at that Labour and their leaders have not

:34:31. > :34:35.learned their lessons of the past. Their plans to spend more, borrow

:34:36. > :34:41.more and taxed more and exactly what got us in the mess in the first

:34:42. > :34:43.place. As Labour's great recession showed, it is working people and

:34:44. > :34:50.their families who end up paying the price for that. When we came into

:34:51. > :34:56.Government in 2002, the Government was borrowing over 150 billion year.

:34:57. > :35:01.One in ?4 spent by the then Labour Government was borrowed.

:35:02. > :35:04.Unemployment increased by nearly 500000 and Britain suffer the

:35:05. > :35:09.deepest recession since the war and had the second bigger structural

:35:10. > :35:14.deficit of any major economy. We have cut the deficit in half and are

:35:15. > :35:18.working to cut the deficit again by 2020. It is a fundamental truth that

:35:19. > :35:22.without saying public finances, there is no economic security for

:35:23. > :35:29.working families and we cannot pay for hospitals, schools, people and

:35:30. > :35:33.housing we rely on. It is our long-term economic plan that will

:35:34. > :35:36.turn us into a high wage, low tax, low welfare and economy. The Labour

:35:37. > :35:42.Party are out of touch with hard-working people. They are out of

:35:43. > :35:48.touch and out of ideas on welfare. Based on this debate, they will be

:35:49. > :35:56.felt long time. -- and they will be for a long time.

:35:57. > :36:03.She was about the the house a fairly easy with to find out what we are

:36:04. > :36:07.talking about, it is about the homeless services and the unintended

:36:08. > :36:15.consequences of a cap on housing benefit. The potential catastrophic

:36:16. > :36:20.outcome for people in specialist housing, in homelessness

:36:21. > :36:24.arrangements, specialist schemes for dependent drinkers, for example the

:36:25. > :36:30.catastrophic outcome these changes will make to their rents, to their

:36:31. > :36:34.circumstances and indeed to the organisations that seek to house

:36:35. > :36:37.them and provide services for them, that is what this debate is about

:36:38. > :36:42.this afternoon and we have to concentrate on that. I must say I

:36:43. > :36:46.was remarkably disappointed by the fact free bluster from the Minister

:36:47. > :36:56.of this it about this particular issue. I suppose one can only

:36:57. > :37:00.forgive the fact free bluster on the basis that there was no impact

:37:01. > :37:03.assessment for these changes and therefore presumably if the Minister

:37:04. > :37:06.is coming here today not armed with an impact assessment he has not

:37:07. > :37:11.really got any facts to defend his side of the argument in the first

:37:12. > :37:16.place. Taiwan to do is provide little impact assessment of my own

:37:17. > :37:23.as far as this is concerned, I want to base that on an organisation

:37:24. > :37:29.based in my constituency that provide services for homeless

:37:30. > :37:35.people, for people with severe and injuring mental health problems,

:37:36. > :37:45.drinkers and people with alcohol problems, mental health substance

:37:46. > :37:47.misuse Robins, former offenders. The members opposite playing with their

:37:48. > :37:53.phones, they might put them to better use by putting it on this

:37:54. > :37:57.website. Any dispute about who cares in this debate, it is certainly the

:37:58. > :38:03.case that the Society of Saint James does care. It cares deeply about all

:38:04. > :38:08.these people they are trying to houses and help and they assessed

:38:09. > :38:14.either in housing or helping some 2500 people. They have looked that

:38:15. > :38:21.the impact of these changes on their various housing schemes across South

:38:22. > :38:25.Hampshire and their calculation is that the average reduction in rent

:38:26. > :38:32.will be 40% across the 300 odd people that are actually housed at

:38:33. > :38:36.the one time but that of course doesn't mean it does not roll onto

:38:37. > :38:47.the wider number of people in various schemes. They calculate that

:38:48. > :38:49.as a sum of ?1.03 million per year. That quite simply and

:38:50. > :38:54.straightforwardly means that all those schemes are under risk because

:38:55. > :39:00.the Society of Saint James cannot fund those properly over the next

:39:01. > :39:04.period. It has been said, of course that while the discussion of the

:39:05. > :39:11.housing payment scheme is coming to help in the longer term, but the

:39:12. > :39:13.discussion of the -- discretionary housing scheme covers temporary

:39:14. > :39:17.situations and cannot give long-term revenue security the organisations

:39:18. > :39:25.need to plan their future housing needs. Will he not agree with me

:39:26. > :39:29.that the discretionary housing fund is already barely covering the

:39:30. > :39:32.amount of people applying for it giving the impact of the bedroom tax

:39:33. > :39:39.and a further attempt to stretch that and it is already not going far

:39:40. > :39:42.enough. That was an important point, I was perhaps being a little kind to

:39:43. > :39:49.the housing discretionary fund inasmuch it is having so many things

:39:50. > :39:53.poured into it. The chances of the fund having a material impact on a

:39:54. > :40:00.limited basis in this field looks to be fairly low. Of course, the other

:40:01. > :40:05.question in terms of the Society of Saint James is what happens with new

:40:06. > :40:08.schemes that are developing in the future and they have recently

:40:09. > :40:11.received substantial capital donations to develop new property

:40:12. > :40:16.and extend their services. There is no chance those sort of schemes can

:40:17. > :40:20.now go ahead because there is no prospect of those schemes being

:40:21. > :40:26.funded properly once they have been built and indeed it would be deeply

:40:27. > :40:34.irresponsible for that society. I have got one experience already,

:40:35. > :40:39.Alina housing has stopped four extra schemes totalling 500 units because

:40:40. > :40:47.of the impact alone on those schemes, it is 2.3 million deficit.

:40:48. > :40:53.That underlines very powerfully the importance of understanding just how

:40:54. > :40:56.early it is that organisations such as the Society of Saint James and

:40:57. > :41:01.organisations in her constituency are having to take decisions about

:41:02. > :41:05.what they are doing in the future. In that context, a moratorium for a

:41:06. > :41:07.year will not make any difference to those particular decision because it

:41:08. > :41:12.is the question of long-term security of revenue that those

:41:13. > :41:17.schemes are concerned about. And it is indeed very likely and certainly

:41:18. > :41:23.not scaremongering that those schemes will disappear now, not in

:41:24. > :41:29.the future and the whole system will be poorer as a result. Perhaps the

:41:30. > :41:34.question in my mind boils down to this, as far as my question, my

:41:35. > :41:39.central question to the ministers concerned, if he has things he wants

:41:40. > :41:46.to do about putting this particular problem right, whether he thinks in

:41:47. > :41:50.retrospect that this was a problem not of his own making because he

:41:51. > :41:54.doesn't notice it arriving when he came from the Treasury and was only

:41:55. > :41:57.told when it was too late for him to do anything about it, whether indeed

:41:58. > :42:01.he did something about it in the first place and the Treasury ignored

:42:02. > :42:07.him, either way there is an issue that the Minister has two address

:42:08. > :42:12.right now as far as these questions are concerned. My question to the

:42:13. > :42:17.Minister is, if we could impact assessments into the context of the

:42:18. > :42:19.organisations at the heart of the process of clearing in this

:42:20. > :42:23.particular area and at the heart of the process, not only of caring for

:42:24. > :42:29.this area but actually saving the state large amounts of future public

:42:30. > :42:34.expenditure in terms of keeping such people they are caring for and

:42:35. > :42:39.assisting out of prisons and psychiatric institutions and

:42:40. > :42:46.emergency services by securing the accommodation in the community, what

:42:47. > :42:48.is the Minister going to do right now that specifically puts the

:42:49. > :42:53.problem right for the Society of Saint James in Southampton and if

:42:54. > :42:58.the minister does not have an answer for that, it seems to me he has a

:42:59. > :43:04.great deal of thinking to do about the wider issue as a whole. Those

:43:05. > :43:09.are the sort of organisations up and down the country, not local

:43:10. > :43:14.authority organisations, voluntary organisations that are involved in

:43:15. > :43:19.these issues, who now find themselves simply hold below the

:43:20. > :43:25.water line. Unless the Minister can come up urgently with either a patch

:43:26. > :43:29.or a new vote, I'm afraid that is what the reality of the situation

:43:30. > :43:33.will be over the next period and I urge the Minister to take action at

:43:34. > :43:37.the earliest possible opportunity to ensure that such important

:43:38. > :43:38.organisations, as the Society of Saint James, can continue the good

:43:39. > :43:48.work in future. I welcome the opportunity to talk

:43:49. > :43:51.about this important issue because I am concerned, especially by the

:43:52. > :43:54.shadow Housing Minister and members opposite that there is confusion

:43:55. > :43:58.between the difference between general needs housing and supported

:43:59. > :44:01.housing because currently there is no legislation going through that

:44:02. > :44:09.will cap housing benefit in supported housing. There is an

:44:10. > :44:12.evidence review being conducted and the last speaker talked about not

:44:13. > :44:18.having an impact assessment but that is exactly what is happening and it

:44:19. > :44:21.is nothing... Either members opposite do not understand the

:44:22. > :44:26.difference, they are scaremongering. I am a big supporter of supported

:44:27. > :44:29.housing because when I was a Cabinet member or housing in the new unitary

:44:30. > :44:34.authority, I had to live under the last Labour government and let me to

:44:35. > :44:37.you, funding supported housing then was difficult because of the

:44:38. > :44:43.year-on-year cuts to our supporting housing grant. We had supported

:44:44. > :44:47.housing were refunded sheltered housing blocks both in our own stock

:44:48. > :44:51.but also through housing associations and also through

:44:52. > :44:55.charities. We had to dip in and find the difference between those cuts

:44:56. > :44:59.and funding our sheltered housing services. The same for our learning

:45:00. > :45:05.disability clients, who were funded in supported housing houses because

:45:06. > :45:08.let's not pretend that the members opposite, when they were in

:45:09. > :45:14.government were not cutting the amount of money there too. I was

:45:15. > :45:19.also up until recently the trustee of a treasure take which really

:45:20. > :45:28.helps people who have hit rock bottom to alcohol and drug

:45:29. > :45:33.dependency -- treasurer. They are supported not just through rehab but

:45:34. > :45:39.also gaining independence and be able to sustain themselves on their

:45:40. > :45:48.own long-term and supported housing benefit has a huge impact. Housing

:45:49. > :45:54.benefit is being capped, supported housing, there is currently no

:45:55. > :45:58.change, it is under review. Members opposite need to be clear about

:45:59. > :46:06.that, I think the announcement that the housing minister made today that

:46:07. > :46:16.the 1% reduction in social events won't supply to housing for another

:46:17. > :46:19.year has to be welcomed. Let's look at the reasons of why we have to cap

:46:20. > :46:24.housing benefit, it is not just because of the economy, it is

:46:25. > :46:27.because of the impact it has had in constituencies such as mine. I have

:46:28. > :46:31.the town of New Haven in my constituency which is in the same

:46:32. > :46:40.LAK rate as Brighton and Hove, so it has a much higher than the rest of

:46:41. > :46:43.East Sussex. As a result, I know the Shadow Minister doesn't want to

:46:44. > :46:48.listen to this, it is artificially pushing up private rented rates for

:46:49. > :46:53.the ordinary person who is not on housing benefit. They cannot afford

:46:54. > :46:58.to stay in New Haven was the only people who can are those on general

:46:59. > :47:02.needs housing benefit and that has artificially increased the rental

:47:03. > :47:06.market. It has not helped young families in my constituency. The

:47:07. > :47:11.members opposite do not want to cap general needs housing benefit, then

:47:12. > :47:15.how will be tackled the welfare bill that they are so proud to say they

:47:16. > :47:20.would be able to manage so much better than the government? Is it

:47:21. > :47:25.through reducing money on the NHS? Is it by reducing money on schools?

:47:26. > :47:32.Is it by reducing money on the police service or the Armed Forces?

:47:33. > :47:35.They have to make a decision, by putting up taxes instead. They had

:47:36. > :47:41.to be honest with the British public in how they would manage this. Just

:47:42. > :47:46.to conclude because I know time is tight, I asked the housing minister

:47:47. > :47:49.because I am a passionate supporter of supported housing, in the year

:47:50. > :47:54.review that is taking place, if you would come to my constituency to New

:47:55. > :47:59.Haven where we heard just yesterday that money is secure for that

:48:00. > :48:04.housing placement where young people who have had a really rough start in

:48:05. > :48:08.life are being able to have a secure tenancy for a period of time, able

:48:09. > :48:12.to gains kills to get into the workforce, if you would come to meet

:48:13. > :48:17.with those young people and see the difference that supported housing is

:48:18. > :48:21.making for them. They are not under threat from the housing benefit cap

:48:22. > :48:24.because it is not relevant at the moment for supported housing and I

:48:25. > :48:30.will not be supporting members opposite, ER misleading and

:48:31. > :48:32.scaremongering the most vulnerable people in our society and I will not

:48:33. > :48:41.support the motion. The confusion and a lack of clarity

:48:42. > :48:45.around the issue of supported accommodation will have a

:48:46. > :48:51.devastating effect on my constituency. It is curtailing

:48:52. > :48:53.homelessness prevention strategy and already jeopardising new extra care

:48:54. > :48:59.housing developments. I will give you an example, in Wigan, and either

:49:00. > :49:04.500 extra units of extra care housing has been identified to meet

:49:05. > :49:08.housing needs and to reduce the reliance on very expensive

:49:09. > :49:12.residential care facilities and also reduce future demands on the health

:49:13. > :49:17.service. This will allow people to live independently in the community

:49:18. > :49:20.for much longer and I think we would all agree that is a great outcome

:49:21. > :49:27.for the individual, the family, the local authority and the NHS.

:49:28. > :49:33.However, two years ago, work started on implementing our strategy in a

:49:34. > :49:40.scheme comprising 130 flats and bungalows with community facilities

:49:41. > :49:46.at a site. Apart there was selected, Taurus, this key mosque in sight --

:49:47. > :49:49.design, consulted upon, planning permission obtained and funding

:49:50. > :49:52.obtained and the valuable site was transferred at a nominal cost with

:49:53. > :50:00.the support of all and the start date was imminent. I say was because

:50:01. > :50:07.with this change to the rate, this has now installed. A ?30 million

:50:08. > :50:12.project that we desperately need has stalled -- 13 million. This is not

:50:13. > :50:20.just the warming project under threat. 80 units in partnership with

:50:21. > :50:29.arena. What about those projects in the process of being built? Wigan

:50:30. > :50:36.only homes have 25 units being built, 39 units of sheltered plus

:50:37. > :50:40.scheme. The financial projections of both of these schemes do not know

:50:41. > :50:45.and up unless the government accept this type of accommodation. I will

:50:46. > :50:48.give some examples of how the future schemes are threatened and how there

:50:49. > :50:51.will not be the houses for people to move into the community, but what

:50:52. > :51:02.about our existing provision? I have been contacted about this.

:51:03. > :51:07.Across the borough, there is approximately 400 or put these

:51:08. > :51:10.providing homes for people with longer term care and support needs.

:51:11. > :51:16.This ranges from learning disabilities to autism. These are

:51:17. > :51:23.people unable to live and become a valuable part of the community. And

:51:24. > :51:27.the security and the ability of others to move into this type of

:51:28. > :51:30.accommodation is under threat due to the high rent and support charges

:51:31. > :51:39.that only digitally specialist nature of the accommodation. -- due

:51:40. > :51:42.to the specialist nature. One mother contacted the homes company about

:51:43. > :51:46.hearts severely autistic son and said, will I have to have him in the

:51:47. > :51:54.home permanently for ever? She came with scratches all down her arms

:51:55. > :51:59.where he had attacked her. With the honourable member recognise a case

:52:00. > :52:05.where a 19-year-old with serious mental health problems, serious

:52:06. > :52:11.autism, topped them from a Bridgen St Helens from threatening to commit

:52:12. > :52:15.suicide, waiting for a bed, mental health bed, and the only bed that

:52:16. > :52:20.was able to be offered to him is in France or Germany. I wrote to the

:52:21. > :52:26.Minister and I am waiting for a response. What, but can be given to

:52:27. > :52:30.that young man and his parents? I thank the honourable member for that

:52:31. > :52:37.intervention. I agree. There is not much comfort for the parents of

:52:38. > :52:41.young people in many constituencies who are already caring for them with

:52:42. > :52:46.severe autism and health disabilities. These people find that

:52:47. > :52:56.their choices are being limited into where the best place for the sons

:52:57. > :52:59.and daughters are. And I writ on to the price that the people who are

:53:00. > :53:04.homeless or fleeing domestic violence will pay. 35 units of

:53:05. > :53:09.disbursed accommodation will be impacted immediately because they

:53:10. > :53:13.are in their nature short-term. They are specifically for single people,

:53:14. > :53:16.saving them from going into hostels, which are not always the appropriate

:53:17. > :53:22.environment. The young man that came to see me, quite a while ago now,

:53:23. > :53:27.his parents had thrown him out when they found out he was gay. They had

:53:28. > :53:31.also very kindly emptied his bank account out at that time as well.

:53:32. > :53:34.All I could find for him was the local Salvation Army hostel, which

:53:35. > :53:40.was not a safe place for him at that time. There is a father 100 units of

:53:41. > :53:45.homelessness accommodation ranging from hostels to young mum and baby

:53:46. > :53:50.units that are threatened. And perhaps, Madam Deputy is bigger, I

:53:51. > :53:56.can mention just one of these units. It is a self-contained flat within a

:53:57. > :53:58.block. Young mums aged 16-25 and their babies are supported for a

:53:59. > :54:04.maximum of two Mac years to live independent lives. They learn from

:54:05. > :54:08.each other and live in a safe environment. They leave with

:54:09. > :54:15.confidence and skills to live in the community and be excellent role

:54:16. > :54:19.models and providers and parents for their children. How can we threaten

:54:20. > :54:24.this type of service and what will the cost be, both human and

:54:25. > :54:28.financial? There are also the women's refuges that provide a safe

:54:29. > :54:31.haven for those that have suffered emotional abuse but also the

:54:32. > :54:36.activities that provide life and family skills. And the Government

:54:37. > :54:41.solution to this is discretionary housing payments. That is not a

:54:42. > :54:46.resolution. It is an excuse to continue with an ill thought out

:54:47. > :54:49.policy. Now hosting provider can forecast finances with any degree of

:54:50. > :54:57.accuracy when your client base has to rely on cash limited Eamonn

:54:58. > :55:04.Holmes -- cash limited payments at discretion. And vulnerable people,

:55:05. > :55:08.how can we assist them to apply for these payments and at what cost all

:55:09. > :55:14.that be? How many people will deter from living independently? The

:55:15. > :55:17.policies not thought through and I welcome the announcement that there

:55:18. > :55:24.will be a review of it as it stands. But, as it stands, it will affect

:55:25. > :55:27.the most vulnerable, it will affect their families and those charged

:55:28. > :55:33.with making sure the best quality of life is available for all. The old,

:55:34. > :55:38.the ill, those at risk. Anyone who is vulnerable at any stage of their

:55:39. > :55:44.life. And it will end with increased costs and a burden on other services

:55:45. > :55:49.like the NHS. I urge the Minister to listen and provide the clarity that

:55:50. > :55:51.is needed soon. Not to rely on discretionary payments so that my

:55:52. > :55:58.constituents and others across the country can have a home that best

:55:59. > :56:05.suits their needs. The speech limit is now five minutes. Thank you. The

:56:06. > :56:10.background to this debate is the deep changes in our society. A

:56:11. > :56:13.growing population, and ageing population and more and more of our

:56:14. > :56:19.constituents living with long-term disabilities and illnesses as a

:56:20. > :56:24.result of medical advances. So, although... Not all, but many of the

:56:25. > :56:30.speeches opposite have been rather simplistic. The situation is

:56:31. > :56:34.incredibly complex. A wide range of our constituents live in supported

:56:35. > :56:42.housing. The elderly, refugees, victims of domestic live in, people

:56:43. > :56:47.living with mental health problems. -- domestic via a. Some will live in

:56:48. > :56:51.these houses for a matter of months and others for practically the whole

:56:52. > :56:57.lives. Members have outlined very passionately organisations in their

:56:58. > :57:00.constituencies who work with those people. It is evident therefore that

:57:01. > :57:06.we are going to need more of this sort of supported housing. And if

:57:07. > :57:14.this is the case, we need to ask very honestly, is this accommodation

:57:15. > :57:18.suitable? Are the services that go with it suitable? And is the

:57:19. > :57:24.supported living getting the best value for taxpayers' money? Because

:57:25. > :57:27.if it is not, it will be unsustainable in the long term and

:57:28. > :57:33.in the end it will be those vulnerable in our societies and

:57:34. > :57:36.communities who suffer. I very much welcome the fact that this is a

:57:37. > :57:39.consultation. The Government is listening and we have seen that from

:57:40. > :57:47.the one-year moratorium announced today. This debate will be part of

:57:48. > :57:54.that and I know that there are representations from housing

:57:55. > :57:58.associations. We have to talk about sustainability because, as my

:57:59. > :58:06.honourable friend, who is not longer in his place, outlined, the housing

:58:07. > :58:10.benefit bill increased by 46% between 1999 and 2010. This was not

:58:11. > :58:13.a fair balance between those families living in social housing

:58:14. > :58:18.and hard-working families who did not quite meet that threshold. We

:58:19. > :58:23.have to have supported housing on a sustainable footing. This policy is

:58:24. > :58:26.still being developed and with that in mind, I would be grateful if the

:58:27. > :58:33.Minister would look very closely at the representations from my local

:58:34. > :58:38.housing association, Progress Housing, which serves people all

:58:39. > :58:45.over South Ribble but has refugees in other areas and supports people

:58:46. > :58:49.in a wide range of difficulties. Madam Deputy Speaker, I take great

:58:50. > :58:52.issue with some of the statements from the benches opposite that we on

:58:53. > :58:55.this site do not care about the vulnerable in our society. It is

:58:56. > :59:01.very easy to throw money at a problem and to have a quick fix. But

:59:02. > :59:04.putting supported living on a long-term, sustainable basis after a

:59:05. > :59:08.thorough consultation so that it works for everybody, not just now,

:59:09. > :59:13.not just the next election, but for the next 20-30 years, that is a

:59:14. > :59:23.clear plan of action, rather than criticism with no answers. Thank

:59:24. > :59:26.you, Madam Deputy is bigger. Many of the contributions already made from

:59:27. > :59:31.the side of the House, and they are happy to speak in the support of the

:59:32. > :59:35.motion today. The mark of Savoy Society is that it looks its most

:59:36. > :59:39.vulnerable. Yet here we have a Government seeking to remove some of

:59:40. > :59:46.those support mechanisms from the most vulnerable in our supposedly

:59:47. > :59:51.Savoy Society. -- civilised society. Does he agree that supported housing

:59:52. > :59:55.provides support older people need to maintain and allows homeless

:59:56. > :59:58.people with complex and multiple needs to help them make the

:59:59. > :00:03.transition from life on the street are settled home, education,

:00:04. > :00:05.training and employment? Surely any change to housing benefit could

:00:06. > :00:10.undermine the ability of such tents to pay their rent and would affect

:00:11. > :00:14.their mental and physical well-being. Thank you for that

:00:15. > :00:21.intervention. I agree wholeheartedly. Not only does it

:00:22. > :00:25.affect the individuals, but it will affect the organisations that

:00:26. > :00:31.provide the services. And for what purpose is it? Is it to save money?

:00:32. > :00:36.The Institute of fiscal sizes -- the Institute for Fiscal Studies says

:00:37. > :00:40.that any saving would be small. There would be little savings to the

:00:41. > :00:44.public horse but expenditure could rise as a result of the unintended

:00:45. > :00:50.consequences of this pool a photo measure. This is a classic case of

:00:51. > :00:54.robbing Peter to pay Paul. A small saving could be massively outweighed

:00:55. > :01:00.by the cost associated with providing institutional care,

:01:01. > :01:05.funding increase hospital stays and the increased cost of imprisonment.

:01:06. > :01:11.This is the very definition of fiscal irresponsibility. Figures

:01:12. > :01:13.from the Scottish Federation of Housing associations have identified

:01:14. > :01:19.that associations in Scotland could potentially lose between five

:01:20. > :01:29.million and ?40 million per year. This is unsustainable. -- ?40

:01:30. > :01:32.million. It will be to the closure of housing that supports the most

:01:33. > :01:35.vulnerable in society. There will not be the security from

:01:36. > :01:40.accommodation providers to continue even the current level of

:01:41. > :01:43.specialised accommodation, let alone plan for additional provision in

:01:44. > :01:49.years to come. I have a real concern about the effect of these changes on

:01:50. > :01:53.vulnerable young people. In my own constituency, there is an

:01:54. > :01:55.accommodation project. It has nine supported flats in West Lothian and

:01:56. > :02:02.can accommodate up to 16 young people between the ages of 16-21.

:02:03. > :02:05.The flats are fully furnished and most share accommodation. The aim of

:02:06. > :02:08.the supported flat is to prepare young people for tenancy. When a

:02:09. > :02:12.young person enjoys the supported flat service, they have a dedicated

:02:13. > :02:17.support worker who will work with them to give personal and practical

:02:18. > :02:20.support, helping them to have self-confidence and live

:02:21. > :02:22.independently. Already the young people who are being supported on

:02:23. > :02:29.experiencing a number of issues with the existing situation. The time it

:02:30. > :02:32.takes to receive payments for benefits is a problem and it can

:02:33. > :02:37.have an impact on young people living in the accommodation. Other

:02:38. > :02:43.media concern is that there is no longer a seven-day run-on. If young

:02:44. > :02:46.people after millimetre, the sign for the tenancy and cannot set of

:02:47. > :02:51.utilities and apply for the social welfare fund for the most basic

:02:52. > :02:54.necessities. That uncertainty as to what might come with reductions in

:02:55. > :02:59.housing benefit can only exacerbate these issues, which are already

:03:00. > :03:03.applying to them. It might even put his vocal support of accommodation

:03:04. > :03:05.at risk. How will organisations such as those planned for the future when

:03:06. > :03:11.faced with yet more funding challenges? Never comes one of the

:03:12. > :03:14.more CDs of the unintended consequences, the impact on funding

:03:15. > :03:20.for support accommodation, which puts people with substance abuse

:03:21. > :03:24.problems. -- supports people. Many organisations are doing amazing

:03:25. > :03:28.work, especially with ex-offenders, helping them to rebuild lives and

:03:29. > :03:35.rejoin society. Funding for this accommodation, which faces cuts, is

:03:36. > :03:37.intolerable. A number of young people, and leaving this

:03:38. > :03:48.institution, will be dependent on the ... If these draconian proposals

:03:49. > :03:53.are implemented. Your Mac does my honourable friend not agree that at

:03:54. > :03:58.a cost of over ?40,000 a year in prison, this could be a totally

:03:59. > :04:02.false economy? She makes a point very well. It is a

:04:03. > :04:05.completely false economy and I believe it will cost the public

:04:06. > :04:10.purse far more than the benefits they are trying to say. Again we

:04:11. > :04:13.must look at the fiscal implications. A saving in housing

:04:14. > :04:16.benefit means a lack of supported accommodation for young

:04:17. > :04:20.ex-offenders. How many of these vulnerable young people will end up

:04:21. > :04:35.back in prison at a higher cost to the public boss? -- purse? We have

:04:36. > :04:39.to make sure at the very least supported accommodation is except

:04:40. > :04:43.from these changes. We have had to mitigate the changes of the unfair

:04:44. > :04:46.bedroom tax in Scotland. And it might be illegal, as we have held

:04:47. > :04:50.today in the court case. Is the future going to be yet another

:04:51. > :04:56.botched Tory attempt at saving moves an increased burden on to Holyrood?

:04:57. > :04:59.Only with full power over our Social Security would be so protect those

:05:00. > :05:06.people in need from these housing cuts. Thank you very much indeed,

:05:07. > :05:10.Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow the honourable

:05:11. > :05:16.gentleman for Linlithgow and East Falkirk. I was I to say something

:05:17. > :05:24.which I hope all members in the House will be able to agree upon.

:05:25. > :05:34.Housing and home an important. -- and homes. The security of a roof

:05:35. > :05:43.over your head, temporary or permanent, is important. For that

:05:44. > :05:49.reason, I believe Labour's position today should be condemned because we

:05:50. > :05:54.have heard precisely what we are used to hearing from the Labour

:05:55. > :06:01.Party. And I have found this debate, Madam deputies bigger, slightly

:06:02. > :06:07.annoying. -- Madam Deputy Speaker. Not that it has been tabled, this is

:06:08. > :06:11.not an issue. If honourable members would just get a listen, they might

:06:12. > :06:16.just hear something which would shed a bit of light on their prejudice.

:06:17. > :06:23.I'm not annoyed by the fact this is being debated, this important issue

:06:24. > :06:26.has been tabled, but by the order of smug hand-wringing which has come

:06:27. > :06:31.from the party opposite and crocodile tears that they in

:06:32. > :06:37.essence, as they have always tried to purport, have a monopoly on

:06:38. > :06:41.caring. They believe that somehow or other we are the nasty bunch, that

:06:42. > :06:47.we couldn't give a dam about anything. And we are not. As I said

:06:48. > :06:50.in my intervention to the Shadow Minister, we all have constituents

:06:51. > :06:56.who are in sheltered housing and we want to make sure the best provision

:06:57. > :07:02.can be made for that. I say to the party opposite that there is nothing

:07:03. > :07:06.kind or caring in trying to prop up an inflated and unsustainable

:07:07. > :07:13.welfare system. That is the eternal cry of the party opposite whenever a

:07:14. > :07:17.reform is met. Does the gentleman not agree that what has actually

:07:18. > :07:20.been inflated is the ridiculous rents in many of the urban centres

:07:21. > :07:24.in the UK and that is the private system, that is why housing benefit

:07:25. > :07:30.is out of control in the first place, it is not the social sector.

:07:31. > :07:33.I'm grateful to the honourable lady for making the argument as to why it

:07:34. > :07:40.is important to have a cap on housing benefit. The absence of a

:07:41. > :07:45.cap, of any control in housing benefit, has been the fuel of the

:07:46. > :07:51.fire of those who have sought to ramp up their rents. Because if the

:07:52. > :07:55.person is bottomless, if the pit is always gone to deliver the funding

:07:56. > :08:02.for it, by definition, that provides the dynamic for the higher rents, so

:08:03. > :08:09.the introduction of a cap, we believe on the side of the house,

:08:10. > :08:16.will act as a brake on what was a runaway train. But it is the eternal

:08:17. > :08:20.crime of many of the members opposite, it is the golden thread

:08:21. > :08:23.which has run through their political approach, whenever there

:08:24. > :08:28.is a reform in this area, the default position is no, we have

:08:29. > :08:33.heard from many colleagues on the side of the house, not a single

:08:34. > :08:38.reform to welfare has been supported by the party opposite. They have

:08:39. > :08:46.learned no lessons from the general election of just last May.

:08:47. > :08:54.These schemes have demonstrated clear success in providing a better

:08:55. > :08:59.quality of life for delivering better social care and health

:09:00. > :09:04.outcomes, to provide these schemes in the future with results in

:09:05. > :09:08.greater pressures on both health and social care services as housing

:09:09. > :09:12.providers will not be able to deliver good quality independent

:09:13. > :09:18.living places and this will mean people will then go back to

:09:19. > :09:28.residential centres and old folks homes, languishing in hospitals,.

:09:29. > :09:32.The interventions are very long in the time-limited debate. The

:09:33. > :09:49.honourable lady speaks with enormous passion. Let me say this to her.

:09:50. > :09:54.What has added pressures is little certainty to those providers seeking

:09:55. > :09:59.to make short, medium and longer term financial commitments has been

:10:00. > :10:06.the panic driven shroud waving of the party opposite, trotting round

:10:07. > :10:14.the country, desperately trying to stoke this up for party political

:10:15. > :10:17.advantage. I can never resist the honourable lady from Birmingham

:10:18. > :10:30.Yardley for having passion in this issue. It is not shroud waving, both

:10:31. > :10:37.his government have made an exemption for this group and every

:10:38. > :10:41.single one of the welfare reforms. We are asking for today is not a no

:10:42. > :10:48.to the reform it is an for this group we are seeking. Is the

:10:49. > :10:51.honourable lady will have heard, that was the point made by my right

:10:52. > :10:58.honourable friend the Minister to gather the evidence to talk to

:10:59. > :11:00.experts and, with a policy in June course and I would hope, in all

:11:01. > :11:05.seriousness, that the honourable lady would roar some comfort and

:11:06. > :11:09.satisfaction from that so she can put her shroud away, she can contain

:11:10. > :11:15.herself for a few moments and the debate can go on. Just on the

:11:16. > :11:19.subject of service providers, I have spoken to all of the housing

:11:20. > :11:22.associations covering my constituency and I think their

:11:23. > :11:28.response, I hope I will not be misquoted, is as follows colon

:11:29. > :11:33.things change, systems and procedures change from time to time.

:11:34. > :11:36.New policies usually present new challenges but the view in my

:11:37. > :11:41.housing association is that we will meet them, we will reform, we will

:11:42. > :11:46.change and recast what we do but the central core of our ethos and why we

:11:47. > :11:53.are in business remains intact and that is a very important point to

:11:54. > :11:58.make. The Shadow minister who is now not in his place, and I thought the

:11:59. > :12:02.absolute brass neck to accuse my right honourable friend, the

:12:03. > :12:06.Chancellor of putting politics before policy, well of his speech

:12:07. > :12:11.did anything, it was precisely that. The crocodile tears of weaker for

:12:12. > :12:16.these people who need the sort of homes, which we all recognise, but

:12:17. > :12:21.then to drape it in the flag of party politics is shameful or stab

:12:22. > :12:26.at the heart of what her Majesty 's government is trying to do is

:12:27. > :12:31.fairness, equity and equality. It is right in my judgment that the social

:12:32. > :12:35.sector of housing benefit should be capped to mirror that of local

:12:36. > :12:40.authority level, the same rates as those in the private sector. The

:12:41. > :12:46.reforms seek to align those two sectors and prevent private social

:12:47. > :12:52.landlords from artificial rent inflation. We care on this side of

:12:53. > :12:57.the house to get it right, we care about fairness for taxpayers, we

:12:58. > :13:01.care about quality provision of housing. What we don't care for is

:13:02. > :13:08.the shroud waving and the hand-wringing and the crocodile

:13:09. > :13:15.tears of the party opposite. I'm afraid the honourable gentleman for

:13:16. > :13:19.North Dorset exemplifies the same old Tories. I want to make it

:13:20. > :13:25.perfectly clear at the start that I am a big fan of welfare reform, I

:13:26. > :13:30.believe as we move to the second half of this decade, we do need an

:13:31. > :13:35.active welfare system, however the difficulty I have with measures such

:13:36. > :13:40.as the bedroom tax, the local housing allowance and caps on

:13:41. > :13:46.housing benefit, is that I am not convinced they are genuine welfare

:13:47. > :13:53.reforms. They ignore the supplying norms in housing, landlords and the

:13:54. > :13:56.lack of specialist support of accommodation and we treat all

:13:57. > :14:04.tenants as if their circumstances are the same. In fact, we simply as

:14:05. > :14:18.board cuts from DWP to DC LT without any regard to the consequences. What

:14:19. > :14:22.you will invite are a lot of families who will find themselves

:14:23. > :14:28.destitute because they won't be able to pay the rents. That is a private

:14:29. > :14:31.landlords chartered to make money. Almost everybody realises you cannot

:14:32. > :14:35.have action on housing benefit and not have action on rents, it is

:14:36. > :14:41.self-evident. We are having this debate today because those who are

:14:42. > :14:46.the targets of this change are not the work-shy and the feckless. Too

:14:47. > :14:54.many of them are bombed rubble people. -- vulnerable people. Many

:14:55. > :15:02.people came into politics wanting to help. Elderly people, no longer fit

:15:03. > :15:07.to call look after themselves, veterans, youngsters leaving care,

:15:08. > :15:13.those fleeing domestic violence. The National Housing Federation claims

:15:14. > :15:19.that the Chancellor's changes could cost some people up to ?60 per week,

:15:20. > :15:22.and to force them to leave their accommodation and in some cases add

:15:23. > :15:28.to the growing number of casualties sleeping on our streets, as the

:15:29. > :15:35.homelessness crisis sweeps the country like a plague. The NHS also

:15:36. > :15:39.speculate that it may lead to the closure of thousands of homes, the

:15:40. > :15:45.kinds of places we are talking about our retirement homes, active elderly

:15:46. > :15:50.establishments designed to improve the quality of life, supported

:15:51. > :15:55.accommodation and temporary accommodation. Is that really the

:15:56. > :16:01.kind of reform that the members opposite want to see? There is

:16:02. > :16:07.already a 16,000 shortfall in demand for support of accommodation and

:16:08. > :16:08.estimates say that it is likely to double by the end of this

:16:09. > :16:17.Parliament. I had the privilege recently of

:16:18. > :16:21.opening an extra care scheme and they are predicting that if the cap

:16:22. > :16:26.goes ahead that residents there will have to pay an extra ?50 per week

:16:27. > :16:30.which is completely unsustainable. I think we have heard from members

:16:31. > :16:37.opposite that they have the same fears and there is a lot riding on

:16:38. > :16:40.this review. What I want to say is that without exemption for those

:16:41. > :16:46.with a clear learning disability who lives in supported accommodation, we

:16:47. > :16:52.are about to witness a housing disaster for such people. After

:16:53. > :16:57.years of talking about rights and independence, are we seriously going

:16:58. > :17:01.to banish them to institutions and substandard care homes? Seven out of

:17:02. > :17:07.ten people with a learning disability would prefer to live by

:17:08. > :17:12.themselves or with friends rather than in a registered care home or

:17:13. > :17:19.with their parents. Aren't they entitled to aspire to that? Aren't

:17:20. > :17:24.they entitled to that degree of independence? Can the society,

:17:25. > :17:30.whatever cuts we want to make, not afford to shore just a bit of

:17:31. > :17:39.generosity to such people? How will the government ever succeed closing

:17:40. > :17:44.places and deliver on NHS England's 2015 strategy, building the right

:17:45. > :17:49.support, without a supported housing plan for those with learning

:17:50. > :17:53.disabilities? And what about young people leaving care? How are they

:17:54. > :17:59.going to make the first step on the ladder to independence? Vulnerable

:18:00. > :18:03.young people, especially care leavers, should be excluded from the

:18:04. > :18:08.under 35 is shared accommodation rule will stop we should hear that

:18:09. > :18:13.today. I wonder if the Minister is now in a position to tell us when

:18:14. > :18:22.the housing benefit regulations for those aged 18-21 will be published.

:18:23. > :18:25.And how have we got to a situation, Madam Deputy Speaker, where the cap

:18:26. > :18:30.applies to any tenancy signed after the 1st of April, only 62 days away

:18:31. > :18:38.and housing associations are still not clear about the plans. The

:18:39. > :18:45.Minister has offered no details of his review today and his party has

:18:46. > :18:50.got for him on promising things during debates which it then

:18:51. > :18:55.backtracks on. In fact, everybody knows there is a dangerous air of

:18:56. > :19:00.hubris about government ministers these days. I think they might find

:19:01. > :19:05.a degree of support if these measures were intended for working

:19:06. > :19:15.age adults in general needs housing only, instead of such a sweeping

:19:16. > :19:21.threat to the vulnerable. This allows for the comments about my

:19:22. > :19:25.right honourable friend, the member for Wentworth made earlier during my

:19:26. > :19:31.intervention. I believe that the Minister would ease the situation a

:19:32. > :19:35.little if he could say today that service charges will not be included

:19:36. > :19:39.in the cap because it is obvious that sheltered accommodation,

:19:40. > :19:44.supportive housing schemes and extra care measures, and higher rents and

:19:45. > :19:49.service charges since they are more expensive to build and manage, but

:19:50. > :19:57.they bring huge savings to the NHS and other services. Some housing

:19:58. > :20:02.associations, as we heard earlier, including Midland heart, a few these

:20:03. > :20:08.proposals could cost them a huge shortfall, over ?1 million, in some

:20:09. > :20:12.cases a discrepancy in housing payments will not deal with that.

:20:13. > :20:16.Before this debate concludes, the minister needs to tell us that he

:20:17. > :20:21.has got plans to protect bombed rubble people, he needs to give some

:20:22. > :20:28.clue to what they are, he has to demonstrate that he has listened to

:20:29. > :20:30.the plight of those in support accommodation -- protective

:20:31. > :20:36.honourable people. And definitely exclude them from these measures. --

:20:37. > :20:41.protect vulnerable people. A pleasure to follow the honourable

:20:42. > :20:45.member from Birmingham. These measures about striking a fair deal,

:20:46. > :20:49.half year deal for those in accommodation and a fair deal for

:20:50. > :20:54.those who provide accommodation and for the taxpayer. And there has to

:20:55. > :20:57.be a balance in the increases in rents paid in the social housing

:20:58. > :21:01.sector and those in the private rented sector.

:21:02. > :21:09.Over the last ten years, there has been a 60% increase in rent paid in

:21:10. > :21:16.the social housing sector. At the same time in the private rented

:21:17. > :21:22.sector, a 23% increase. The 1% reduction in housing benefit I

:21:23. > :21:29.believe is very fair to the taxpayer and tenants and means housing

:21:30. > :21:33.associations get a fair deal. It is one I believe that they can manage.

:21:34. > :21:43.And of course, this is all about balancing books. In the last up to

:21:44. > :21:50.four years, almost 20 years of those -- in the last 24 years, there has

:21:51. > :21:55.been accumulated debt of trillion. This Government has reduced the

:21:56. > :22:00.deficit to ?75 billion. But that is much more to do. And the last eight

:22:01. > :22:05.months since I have been in this place, the opposition has opposed

:22:06. > :22:09.every single cut. So how would you balance those books? Would you cut

:22:10. > :22:16.health care, Armed Forces, welfare, pensions? Where will you cut? Come

:22:17. > :22:21.up with constructive suggestions about how you would make those cuts.

:22:22. > :22:27.All in it to housing associations. They have a responsibility to use

:22:28. > :22:31.taxpayers money Mac -- taxpayers' money wisely. They housing

:22:32. > :22:37.associations collectively employ 91,000 people and those numbers have

:22:38. > :22:42.been growing. A 1% reduction per annum, is that feasible in an

:22:43. > :22:45.organisation like that? Yes, I believe it is. In the private

:22:46. > :22:51.sector, that is something that is managed on a regular basis. These

:22:52. > :22:56.changes, I believe, are fair and will result in huge savings. ?255

:22:57. > :23:03.million by the end of this Parliament. And in future

:23:04. > :23:05.parliaments, ?1.1 billion per year. So, yes, they might need to be

:23:06. > :23:13.consolidations and yes, more efficiencies. I will give way. Does

:23:14. > :23:17.he not recognise any impact on supportive housing is going to fly

:23:18. > :23:22.in the face of any idea of economic credibility? The knock-on effects of

:23:23. > :23:27.supported accommodation closing, there will be more costs to

:23:28. > :23:30.residential care and the NHS and the impact on the taxpayer will be

:23:31. > :23:35.higher. This is not a good economic policy. We need to support

:23:36. > :23:41.vulnerable people in accommodation and there is no question about that.

:23:42. > :23:45.I believe that our homes, hostels, sheltered housing need that support.

:23:46. > :23:51.Yes, this is a much more labour-intensive part of the market.

:23:52. > :23:55.For personal care and in terms of supervision and maidens. I

:23:56. > :23:59.absolutely believe that. Does the honourable gentleman not recognise,

:24:00. > :24:06.following on from the honourable lady's point, the most complex need

:24:07. > :24:10.for people... The difference in cost is 18,500 homes and the biggest user

:24:11. > :24:16.of supported living our people over 70. At the moment, the debates we

:24:17. > :24:18.are having over health is trying to get people into the community.

:24:19. > :24:24.People will end up in expensive alternatives. Tayyab Subhani except

:24:25. > :24:27.that point and be need to make sure we protect our most vulnerable

:24:28. > :24:33.people. That is what I believe we will do. Many of those that provide

:24:34. > :24:39.this supported housing and specialist accommodation are of

:24:40. > :24:41.course part of much larger organisations, able to blend these

:24:42. > :24:48.reductions right across various things. But there are some

:24:49. > :24:54.specialist providers that we want to make sure still providing that

:24:55. > :24:59.accommodation. This is in the early stages, in consultation. I welcome

:25:00. > :25:02.the minister's announcement that there will be a one-year delay in

:25:03. > :25:08.the introductions of the meeting get this right. This has been spoken

:25:09. > :25:13.about before. The homelessness Minister said in September of last

:25:14. > :25:17.year that specialised support of accommodation is likely to be

:25:18. > :25:22.exempted. I think there is no need for members of the opposition to

:25:23. > :25:25.basically frighten our residents and make them feel that they will lose

:25:26. > :25:34.their homes. It is irresponsible. Irresponsible. And on top of

:25:35. > :25:36.everything else, of course there is ?800 million in discretionary

:25:37. > :25:41.housing payments in this Parliament for the more vulnerable tenants.

:25:42. > :25:46.Those who suffer domestic violence, ?40 million. I would say to members

:25:47. > :25:50.opposite, wait for the results of the policy because the policy I

:25:51. > :25:58.believe will provide a fair deal for our most honourable evil. -- people.

:25:59. > :26:02.Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I have been listening to the speeches

:26:03. > :26:05.from members opposite since the debate started and I do wonder

:26:06. > :26:10.whether some of them are actually in the right debate. Because if they

:26:11. > :26:13.are that the order paper, they will see that the debate is about

:26:14. > :26:20.supported housing. It is not about housing costs bills, it is not about

:26:21. > :26:26.taxation, it is about a very specific vulnerable group of people.

:26:27. > :26:31.We keep hearing that we will wait to see the proposals. If that is the

:26:32. > :26:34.case, would it not been sensible for the Government from the beginning,

:26:35. > :26:40.before announcing these are proposals, to actually look into the

:26:41. > :26:46.whole area and work out how much would cost, what the issues are, and

:26:47. > :26:49.then have this reviewed before making the announcement? Because if

:26:50. > :26:57.they carried that Revere properly, they would have found these

:26:58. > :27:00.proposals are counter productive economically and morally. If they

:27:01. > :27:04.had done their homework before making the announcement, maybe we

:27:05. > :27:11.would not have this debate. Can I say, the suggestion he may is so

:27:12. > :27:17.unfair. I very rarely cry, but when I do, they are real tears. And also

:27:18. > :27:22.on this site, we do care about people. The reason that we care

:27:23. > :27:26.about people is because that is what the Labour Party is founded for. As

:27:27. > :27:31.the suggestions from members across that somehow social housing groups

:27:32. > :27:36.have pots of money and spend millions of pounds on campaigning,

:27:37. > :27:39.absolute rubbish. I have been contacted by a number of housing

:27:40. > :27:44.associations and charities which are looking after vulnerable people in

:27:45. > :27:49.my constituency and I can assure you that they do not have money to waste

:27:50. > :27:53.on campaigning. I visited these places and I have seen what has

:27:54. > :27:58.happened. So let me enlighten the House about an organisation in my

:27:59. > :28:05.constituency that is carrying out valuable work. One is the main

:28:06. > :28:08.social provider of social housing in Bolton. They contacted me and I

:28:09. > :28:14.speak to them regularly in any event. They say that thousands of

:28:15. > :28:19.children will end at being made homeless and hundreds of adults as

:28:20. > :28:26.well. Apart from social housing, they provide supported housing. It

:28:27. > :28:30.is important to remember what supported housing means. It is the

:28:31. > :28:34.vulnerable, the disabled, the elderly, people with mental health

:28:35. > :28:38.issues, the young. That is what we are talking about! I tell you

:28:39. > :28:42.something, by actually saying that somehow calming them out of

:28:43. > :28:46.supported housing, the Government is actually going to look on eyes and

:28:47. > :29:00.cut the costs, it is absolute rubbish. -- going to a con --

:29:01. > :29:04.economise. Saint Vincent 's, which is a charity that runs a secure unit

:29:05. > :29:12.for six adults, relies on housing benefits to be able to look after

:29:13. > :29:15.people. People with drug problems and mental health problems. Very

:29:16. > :29:18.vulnerable people. But then on the street and they will probably commit

:29:19. > :29:22.crimes and end up in the prison system, causing the state more

:29:23. > :29:30.money. I also have another association which has companions for

:29:31. > :29:34.honourable people. They usually housing benefit to provide support

:29:35. > :29:39.for them. -- they use the housing benefit. I do not understand where

:29:40. > :29:44.this Government seems to think that the proposals would actually make

:29:45. > :29:47.them save money. They are counter-productive. I know my

:29:48. > :29:54.honourable friend wants to intervene. Thank you for giving way.

:29:55. > :29:58.In the words of the late Ronald Reagan, there you go again. It

:29:59. > :30:01.sounds like the honourable lady has a monopoly of understanding. Does

:30:02. > :30:04.she not accept that beyond this side of the House also topped to service

:30:05. > :30:10.providers in constituency and we know what is going on? I genuinely

:30:11. > :30:16.do sometimes have to struggle with the idea whether members on that

:30:17. > :30:20.side of the House do care or are bothered. Because I tell you

:30:21. > :30:25.something, if you were genuinely bothered about the disabled and the

:30:26. > :30:29.vulnerable people, you would have spent your five-minute speech

:30:30. > :30:36.talking about it, not actually criticising the Labour members

:30:37. > :30:40.opposite, cars, for bringing this matter up in the House and accusing

:30:41. > :30:47.us... I do not i-mate energy said Crocker the deals. -- I do not know

:30:48. > :30:53.how many times you said crocodile tears. I got carried away, sorry,

:30:54. > :30:59.Madam David is bigger. -- Madam Deputy Speaker. If the members

:31:00. > :31:01.opposite were genuinely worried about four honourable people, they

:31:02. > :31:15.would support us today. All we are asking about is that people with a

:31:16. > :31:17.whole range of issues... For example, the members in an

:31:18. > :31:27.organisation in my constituency has companions. They usually benefit for

:31:28. > :31:31.that. The companions then have to pay other taxes and other social

:31:32. > :31:37.security benefits. The actual cost of providing homes is ?1000 to the

:31:38. > :31:42.charity. But they do it because they want to help these people learn

:31:43. > :31:45.skills and integrated society. This cutting of benefit will mean that

:31:46. > :31:49.they have to find more money to be able to support these people. If the

:31:50. > :31:59.people in St Vincent Akhtar and tarmac turfed out, -- Parkhurst out,

:32:00. > :32:05.I go back to the question I asked right at the beginning. Can the

:32:06. > :32:10.Minister guarantee that people currently in supported housing will

:32:11. > :32:17.not be turfed out their home? Will we be supported and protected? I

:32:18. > :32:20.have not had an answer. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to

:32:21. > :32:26.participate in this opposition debate. Since my election 2015, I

:32:27. > :32:30.have worked closer with my main Housing Association, who do a superb

:32:31. > :32:33.job representing tenants. Getting more people into homes was a key

:32:34. > :32:38.election priority for me. We have acute shortage of homes in my

:32:39. > :32:42.constituency and I am pleased this Government has set out an ambition

:32:43. > :32:48.to deliver 1 million new homes by 2020. I applaud the doubling of the

:32:49. > :32:51.housing budget to make this happen. Whilst this Government has rightly

:32:52. > :32:54.increasing housing spending in the budget, difficult decisions have to

:32:55. > :32:59.be made of this Government is to deliver a budget surplus by 2020.

:33:00. > :33:04.With these ambitions in mind, I am conscious that the Housing Benefit

:33:05. > :33:09.Bill Double Has Increased By ?6.7 Billion Between 1997 And 2010 To

:33:10. > :33:20.Reach A Total Of 23 Billion. I Welcome The Intention To Reduce The

:33:21. > :33:25.Housing Bill. Reducing some rents by 1% and requiring higher in

:33:26. > :33:28.containers to pay the market rates. Whilst I recognise concerns raised

:33:29. > :33:32.in this motion, I thought understand why the Government is looking to cap

:33:33. > :33:40.the rent that housing benefit will cover in the social sector from that

:33:41. > :33:45.of the local housing allowance. I am also conscious, as my honourable

:33:46. > :33:52.friend mentioned, that in the last ten years, average social rents have

:33:53. > :33:59.raised the macros and by -- have risen. There have been concerns that

:34:00. > :34:04.rent rises in the social sector needs reform. However, my leading

:34:05. > :34:09.local housing association provider have written to me prior to the

:34:10. > :34:11.Government's welcome announcement to express concerns as to how it will

:34:12. > :34:17.cover the additional funding required for supported housing for

:34:18. > :34:20.those with complex needs. I am father told that as a result of

:34:21. > :34:27.these concerns, a proposed extra care scheme which will open in

:34:28. > :34:31.Bexhill could be shelved. Representing a constituency where

:34:32. > :34:36.the proportion of over 65-year-olds is 20%, compared to the national

:34:37. > :34:40.average of 17%, with an even greater duty on me to ensure that the

:34:41. > :34:44.sometimes complex needs of my constituents are properly recognised

:34:45. > :34:47.and taken into account. I welcome the Government's intention to build

:34:48. > :34:51.a framework to support us vulnerable at the same time as delivering the

:34:52. > :34:54.forms to housing benefit, which I also support. I am conscious that

:34:55. > :34:58.the Government recognises our new reforms will need time to bed in and

:34:59. > :35:02.will cost millions and the Government will pump money in to

:35:03. > :35:08.support these reforms as it did in the last term during housing benefit

:35:09. > :35:13.reform. In addition to the ?465 million of discretionary housing the

:35:14. > :35:17.stomach benefits the Government has pledged, the Government has pledged

:35:18. > :35:21.extra money which I welcome. If it is part of his review, I asked the

:35:22. > :35:25.minister if it would be possible to build some form of LHA which would

:35:26. > :35:28.embrace the Cabinet was some top up to cover the cost requirements of

:35:29. > :35:32.housing associations to provide for the most honourable. Until this

:35:33. > :35:39.time, I hope speculation from this House does not lead to the most

:35:40. > :35:43.vulnerable being driven to worry about something that might not

:35:44. > :35:46.occur. I would like to reference the importance for all housing

:35:47. > :35:52.associations start with care and compassion to tenants. I acted on

:35:53. > :35:56.concern of a number of residents on the border of my constituency. The

:35:57. > :36:01.tenants were informed in writing that their landlord was looking to

:36:02. > :36:03.decamp the properties. There was very little detail given to

:36:04. > :36:06.residents who were in the homes for years. There was talk of moving

:36:07. > :36:15.these tenants out of the town. Is as at a time when people can buy

:36:16. > :36:22.the property, I was staggered that these residents the worker Neto,

:36:23. > :36:29.educate the children in these town, could lose their homes. They require

:36:30. > :36:31.that any tenant decanted from properties to be sold under this

:36:32. > :36:37.policy are suitably rehoused to their satisfaction before the date

:36:38. > :36:41.of the completion of disposal. In my interpretation, this means that the

:36:42. > :36:45.test of whether alternatives are suitable are a subjective one for my

:36:46. > :36:50.constituents and I will work on their behalf for a better outcome. I

:36:51. > :36:52.use this example because I feel it is essential where government is

:36:53. > :36:57.rightly giving rights to tenants to buy their own housing that the law

:36:58. > :37:02.of unintended consequences does not take into deprived of these rights.

:37:03. > :37:05.In conclusion, I welcome the desire of this government to make savings

:37:06. > :37:08.in the housing benefits bill and use these proceeds to build more houses

:37:09. > :37:11.and I welcome the fact that the government is looking how they can

:37:12. > :37:15.support tenants of Housing associations who are vulnerable and

:37:16. > :37:19.need additional support and I look forward to championing needs of all

:37:20. > :37:25.my constituents who live in housing association properties. I am

:37:26. > :37:28.grateful for the virginity to take part in this important debate and I

:37:29. > :37:30.must congratulate Labour for bringing it before the house today

:37:31. > :37:44.-- grateful for the opportunity. I support the points and questions

:37:45. > :37:49.posed by the honourable member for Sheffield South East. I hope the

:37:50. > :37:54.Minister was taking note and will respond to those pertinent points. I

:37:55. > :38:00.also recommend that the honourable member looks at the House of Commons

:38:01. > :38:05.library briefing on the subject and in the Ottoman statement made by the

:38:06. > :38:11.Chancellor as I don't believe the speeches bear any resemblance to any

:38:12. > :38:14.of those statements. A secure, one of that for purpose home is a right

:38:15. > :38:18.we should all enjoy and should never be threatened, least of all by the

:38:19. > :38:22.state, yet I am afraid this is what this government is doing. We have

:38:23. > :38:25.already seen what this government is capable of through the expansion of

:38:26. > :38:29.the bedroom tag and we are again seeing it here in the proposal to

:38:30. > :38:33.cut housing benefit and on the subject of the bed tax, we hear

:38:34. > :38:37.today that the Court of Appeal has ruled that two cases where the

:38:38. > :38:40.policy is discriminatory. In light of this ruling and the overwhelming

:38:41. > :38:43.evidence of how detrimental the policy has been, the UK government

:38:44. > :38:48.must now think again on the bedroom tax and on this trip Ozil to cut

:38:49. > :38:53.housing benefit and not just think about it for a year but for good.

:38:54. > :38:57.Get back to the drawing board and start again from bases of supporting

:38:58. > :39:01.people in homes, not threatening to evict them from their homes. In

:39:02. > :39:05.Scotland the SNP Scottish government has committed to building 50,000

:39:06. > :39:09.affordable homes in the course of the next parliament should the SNP

:39:10. > :39:14.be returned, providing much-needed capacity in the social rented sector

:39:15. > :39:17.because we recognised the need to build houses, not cut supported

:39:18. > :39:21.housing benefits recipients. The Scottish government has also taken

:39:22. > :39:25.the necessary steps to mitigate the Draconian bedroom tax by providing

:39:26. > :39:29.?90 million to more than 70,000 households that have escaped rental

:39:30. > :39:35.arrears and the threat of eviction. The Scottish government has done

:39:36. > :39:42.this is by the overall budget cut of 12.5%, since the SNP came to power

:39:43. > :39:45.in 2007. In Scotland we realise that a house is a home and would serve

:39:46. > :39:48.the UK government wealth to bear that in mind as well. This

:39:49. > :39:54.cut-throat threatens the roof over the heads of housing benefit

:39:55. > :39:59.claimants. -- this cut threatens the roof. Over 800,000 families across

:40:00. > :40:04.the UK will be affected by these cuts costing them an average of

:40:05. > :40:09.?1300 a year. Wearable bus shortfall in annual rent bills be found? --

:40:10. > :40:25.where will this shortfall be found? The Scottish Federation of Housing

:40:26. > :40:29.associations estimated a single person under the age of 35 who is in

:40:30. > :40:37.receipt of housing benefit will face a weekly shortfall of ?6 22, which

:40:38. > :40:41.equates to an annual loss of ?323. A total loss to the housing

:40:42. > :40:46.associations of 2.8 million per year. The area where this cut is of

:40:47. > :40:50.great concern is woman's refuges, Scottish woman's age wrote to Lord

:40:51. > :40:55.Freud about the impact these cuts will have on their ability to

:40:56. > :40:59.provide a refuge service for children and women fleeing domestic

:41:00. > :41:02.violence. In a letter to the government, the commission they

:41:03. > :41:06.should have been aware of and they carried out an impact assessment it

:41:07. > :41:09.would have been clear as day to them. There are a range of

:41:10. > :41:12.additional costs involved in providing a managing refuge

:41:13. > :41:23.accommodation for woman and children fleeing domestic violence and

:41:24. > :41:26.that... LH a rates bear no resemblance to the actual cost to

:41:27. > :41:32.woman's aid groups such as Monklands woman's aid in my consistency and

:41:33. > :41:37.Winnie provide refuge facilities. I have been working closely with

:41:38. > :41:40.Sharon Aitchison who manages the company and they operate under any

:41:41. > :41:44.fine margins to provide a billion service for incredibly honourable

:41:45. > :41:47.women and children at a time of need and they have had their funding

:41:48. > :41:50.challenge but this cut to housing benefit would put them out of the

:41:51. > :41:55.game. This is what the government will have as a consequence of this

:41:56. > :41:58.cut and while I am on the subject I hope the Chancellor will reply to my

:41:59. > :42:03.letter from the 26 November last year regarding his announcement of

:42:04. > :42:09.the tampon tax fund and I have not even had an ignored them. Dillian

:42:10. > :42:10.Whyte has been done in the recent years to tackle domestic violence

:42:11. > :42:16.and better support woman and children from abuse of religion and

:42:17. > :42:20.all that work will be undone at a stroke as Monklands woman's aid

:42:21. > :42:27.would not be the only ones forced. It is time this cut, hitting those

:42:28. > :42:33.who need the support the most is scrapped.

:42:34. > :42:41.I rise to speak perhaps as one of the only people in this room,

:42:42. > :42:46.perhaps even in the Commons who has actually run one of these precious

:42:47. > :42:50.services and let me tell you today has been so frustrating, the lack of

:42:51. > :42:55.understanding of the practicalities and be let how it works, it has been

:42:56. > :43:02.mind-boggling so I apologise if that comes out as aggression. There are

:43:03. > :43:06.many woman who has lived in refuge and even more children. None more so

:43:07. > :43:11.than an era, the only woman who brought tears to my eyes because you

:43:12. > :43:18.learn to live with it. She was found pregnant on the side of the road and

:43:19. > :43:22.she tried to end her life, but her perpetrator she had been kept

:43:23. > :43:25.chained to a table and said scraps like an abused animal and in refuge

:43:26. > :43:30.we had to teach to eat again with small portions and slow progress.

:43:31. > :43:34.When her beautiful daughter was born and was a refuge worker who held her

:43:35. > :43:38.hand in Labour and the refuge manager who picked up from the

:43:39. > :43:46.hospital and took her back home and a woman in refuge in the game her

:43:47. > :43:49.family. Refuges are amazing. I think back to the Conservative members I

:43:50. > :43:54.have walked around woman refuges where I worked, I remember drinking

:43:55. > :44:00.tea with the honourable member from Regis and the then Minister Francis

:44:01. > :44:07.was in the playroom of one of our refuges, that playroom will not be

:44:08. > :44:12.there if these changes passed. The likelihood is that they would not

:44:13. > :44:15.have a refuge to visit under those circumstances but they were not our

:44:16. > :44:19.most eminent guess, that accolade goes to the Home Secretary herself

:44:20. > :44:21.who was a keen visitor of my domestic violence services, if the

:44:22. > :44:26.government plans to reduce housing benefit and do not exempt this

:44:27. > :44:31.group, the ministers will be letting down the Home Secretary in a big

:44:32. > :44:36.way. For every net she tries to put in place, these proposals, without

:44:37. > :44:39.exemptions, will snip a whole for women and children to fall through,

:44:40. > :44:43.the minister in front of me should make no mistake when people slip

:44:44. > :44:46.through these safety nets, born night of hard work or personal

:44:47. > :44:51.responsibility will help them, they will face danger, abuse and too many

:44:52. > :44:54.cases of death. The coalition government and this government have

:44:55. > :45:00.shown their commitment to these families in some ways, the Home

:45:01. > :45:03.Office have try to invest lots of money and have taken a good hard

:45:04. > :45:07.look at laws which will help these victims and there is a lot more to

:45:08. > :45:11.do and I don't think they are not trying and I do think that they

:45:12. > :45:15.care. I'm afraid to say that they are all fully let down by other

:45:16. > :45:18.government departments who feel to recognise their role in the fight to

:45:19. > :45:23.end domestic abuse. There is no greater offence than the Department

:45:24. > :45:25.for communities and local government with their brutal cuts to local

:45:26. > :45:32.authorities which have already closed 34 specialist women's refuges

:45:33. > :45:35.since 2010. Last year before the election they suddenly had an

:45:36. > :45:42.epiphany and released a fund to stimulate increased refuge bed

:45:43. > :45:44.spaces. That she not agree with me that the constant references to

:45:45. > :45:49.shroud waving are in fact an insult to those refuges and the housing

:45:50. > :45:54.associations who are concerned they have to cause accommodation to the

:45:55. > :45:59.most honourable people and people who do work with veterans, former

:46:00. > :46:04.veterans, they will have to close support of accommodation, of the

:46:05. > :46:06.party opposite are so scared about scaremongering and shroud waving

:46:07. > :46:10.they can put an end to that by doing something about this policy. I

:46:11. > :46:15.couldn't agree more, the simple thing to do is exempt them and we

:46:16. > :46:19.now that the government will probably do it, we have waved our

:46:20. > :46:22.shrouds in every single case and do you know what, they listened, so

:46:23. > :46:28.stop me having to talk about this, stop making me a shroud waiver, just

:46:29. > :46:34.do it. Going back to the ?10 million over the 12 months that they gave

:46:35. > :46:38.just before the election, which was intended to create new beds, I have

:46:39. > :46:42.had Mr stand at the dispatch box and caught the number of beds they have

:46:43. > :46:45.created and I know that every single bed that will have been put forward

:46:46. > :46:49.in that fund would have made the calculation based on the current and

:46:50. > :46:55.existing rates of housing benefit. I know that every bed would have had

:46:56. > :47:01.calculation is based on the current and existing housing benefit rates.

:47:02. > :47:03.Without the housing benefit plus settlement, the ?10 million offered

:47:04. > :47:08.would have been completely meaningless and I know this because

:47:09. > :47:13.I helped to write three of the successful bids. I have run refuges

:47:14. > :47:15.that survived solely on housing benefit contributions without any

:47:16. > :47:20.recall to the now nonexistent supporting people funds. My charity,

:47:21. > :47:24.when times were tough and our refuge funding was cut in half, we sucked

:47:25. > :47:28.it up, we make tough decisions and be found new ways and new funds, we

:47:29. > :47:31.worked on different models to bring in support staff to the refuge, none

:47:32. > :47:35.of it would have been possible without the existing system for

:47:36. > :47:39.housing benefit. That is why we got all those Tories coming to see us,

:47:40. > :47:43.haven't we done such a good job of cutting our class, we could only do

:47:44. > :47:47.it because of housing benefit. First day of this change would have closed

:47:48. > :47:51.at least 20 of our bed spaces, turning away every year over 100

:47:52. > :47:56.women and as many of not more vulnerable children. This week I'd

:47:57. > :47:58.stood in the childcare debate on bed for the responsible minister to

:47:59. > :48:02.consider exempting victims of domestic violence from the rules are

:48:03. > :48:08.the 16 hour threshold for increased childcare, he stopped me in my

:48:09. > :48:14.tracks and made that commitment. I am begging those opposite to do what

:48:15. > :48:17.he did. What the Home Secretary is trying to do, to protect victims of

:48:18. > :48:22.domestic violence and their children. The Minister might think

:48:23. > :48:27.it is hyperbole but I should say it anyway was that without the

:48:28. > :48:31.exemption, what he is proposing for many will be a death penalty. Please

:48:32. > :48:44.don't do it. It has now become apparent,

:48:45. > :48:47.increasingly apparent that this government is one of the most

:48:48. > :48:51.pusillanimous in living memory when it comes to tackling the powerful

:48:52. > :48:54.with a vested interest in this country whether it is for the

:48:55. > :49:01.interest of the media, utilities, any companies who have replaced the

:49:02. > :49:04.coffers of the Tory party. This pusillanimous approach extends the

:49:05. > :49:08.international level as well. The kowtowing to foreign governments

:49:09. > :49:11.whether it be the Chinese government or the Saudi Arabian government is

:49:12. > :49:16.cringeworthy and embarrassing and not worthy of a British government.

:49:17. > :49:20.It has come to something when the Italian government has managed to

:49:21. > :49:22.get all money out of taxes on big corporations than the Chancellor of

:49:23. > :49:28.the Exchequer and that is saying something. If you are a young, old,

:49:29. > :49:33.disabled or physically and mentally distressed, unemployed in low pay,

:49:34. > :49:36.in temporary and zero hours contracts, you are fair game for

:49:37. > :49:39.this government. This is a government who challenges the week

:49:40. > :49:42.and the vulnerable and needy and dresses it up as a virtue or

:49:43. > :49:47.character building. But of course the Trent has now begun to discredit

:49:48. > :49:53.anybody who gets it this way things that it is getting in its way. The

:49:54. > :49:57.government can teach a Mafia a thing or two about extortion but without

:49:58. > :50:00.the charm. The House of Lords challenges the governments of the

:50:01. > :50:05.government is now given thought as to how to clip the wings of their

:50:06. > :50:09.lords and ladies ships. The district they have only managed to do that

:50:10. > :50:13.now, now that they don't have a built-in majority there. As for the

:50:14. > :50:17.banks and the bankers, only today we have seen the continued fallout from

:50:18. > :50:23.the reckless decisions that led to the crisis with RBS for example

:50:24. > :50:26.today having to put aside a further ?2 billion to cover their

:50:27. > :50:31.incompetence. The ministers on behalf of the government want to

:50:32. > :50:35.blame the last Labour government, yet this was the same group of

:50:36. > :50:39.people who are in the form of the shadow cabinet in 2007, who lock

:50:40. > :50:44.stock and barrel wanted to deregulate the banking and financial

:50:45. > :50:49.services even more, freeing to compete document which in the light

:50:50. > :50:53.of the banking crisis, caused by their friends in the city, was

:50:54. > :50:56.quietly buried, much to the chagrin of the right on all member for

:50:57. > :51:05.walking, who quarter needed it. I copy this document.

:51:06. > :51:10.I suggest members opposite acquaint themselves with this document if

:51:11. > :51:15.they can find it. The Prime Minister patted himself on the back again for

:51:16. > :51:18.the Government's record on tax collection. If that is the best this

:51:19. > :51:22.Government can do, no wonder it penalises those who can at least

:51:23. > :51:25.afford it. If it cannot get money from the corporations, you will get

:51:26. > :51:33.it from the dispossessed. Once again, and other policy that has not

:51:34. > :51:36.been thought through. The impact on the longer term finances of local

:51:37. > :51:43.Governor than the Health Service are potentially catastrophic. Elderly

:51:44. > :51:54.persons in supported accommodation, it is much cheaper than the

:51:55. > :51:59.proposals. Not content with penalising old people for being old,

:52:00. > :52:04.the Government have focused on people with disabilities, victims of

:52:05. > :52:06.domestic violence... And in 440,000 homes potentially affected.

:52:07. > :52:12.Discretionary support will not make up the difference. The St Vincent

:52:13. > :52:16.Housing Association says that these proposals look like having a

:52:17. > :52:22.detrimental effect, more so than any other recent housing or welfare

:52:23. > :52:27.announcement. In my own constituency, the Housing

:52:28. > :52:31.Association will struggle. For sheltered housing schemes, it cost

:52:32. > :52:37.?123 per week. There will be a shortfall of ?32. These will have a

:52:38. > :52:41.significant detrimental effect on those organisations able to support

:52:42. > :52:45.the most vulnerable. I know that when we talk about the most

:52:46. > :52:51.honourable, the opposition accuses of shroud waving. We are just

:52:52. > :52:55.telling the facts as it is. The facts as it possibly could be.

:52:56. > :52:58.Honourable members over the other side can wring their hands and

:52:59. > :53:01.accuse my right honourable friend, the shadow Housing Minister, of

:53:02. > :53:08.being a scaremonger, but we're putting their heads in the sand even

:53:09. > :53:12.more than they usually do. -- but they are. It is the responsibility

:53:13. > :53:16.of this House and ministers across the way to get a grip of the

:53:17. > :53:24.Chancellor and get him to change his mind, for the umpteenth time. Mr

:53:25. > :53:28.Deputy Speaker, thank you. Cambridge is a high-cost area and is in the

:53:29. > :53:31.grip of a housing crisis. It is a modified Rob and it is complicated

:53:32. > :53:35.but I have to say that every single thing the Government is doing is

:53:36. > :53:38.making it worse at the moment and this policy is no exception. We had

:53:39. > :53:43.members opposite ask what Labour would do. Three-year terraces with

:53:44. > :53:50.it unexpected rent rises would be a good start and I commend it to them.

:53:51. > :53:52.-- tenancies. I have been talking to providers of social housing in

:53:53. > :53:56.Cambridge and what struck me as every single one of them warned

:53:57. > :54:00.about the dangers of this policy and the effects it will have on our

:54:01. > :54:05.city. I will tell you what they have told me. Let's start at the YMCA,

:54:06. > :54:09.which has 80 residents, a mix of students and people in work. 70

:54:10. > :54:13.received housing benefit. They tell me that if housing benefit is cut,

:54:14. > :54:18.it will simply be the case that they will be turfed out onto the street.

:54:19. > :54:20.The YMCA the one to do that but they will have no alternative and that

:54:21. > :54:24.will undermine the recovery programmes and cause yet more young

:54:25. > :54:30.people to end up living not on the Conservatives' spin happy road to

:54:31. > :54:33.recovery but on the street. And Cambridge City Council directly

:54:34. > :54:37.provides manages over 100 units of accommodation for homeless

:54:38. > :54:40.households, including three hostels, 22 units of move on accommodation

:54:41. > :54:50.for adults recovering from mental health conditions and 13 shot at

:54:51. > :54:57.housing units. It'll be the same story for every member across the

:54:58. > :55:01.House, and they have said that tenants will face a higher net pay

:55:02. > :55:05.of rent per week. No more income to pay it, just higher rent. These are

:55:06. > :55:10.of honourable people struggling to prioritise paying the rent and we

:55:11. > :55:13.know what will happen. They will either sink into a spiral of debt or

:55:14. > :55:18.lose accommodation and most likely both. My council also tells me that

:55:19. > :55:21.because of the inevitable loss of income, they will be forced to

:55:22. > :55:24.reduce services they provide. That means fewer wardens, less support

:55:25. > :55:35.unless preventative work to stop people going into hospital. My local

:55:36. > :55:39.NHS already has severely document problems really discussed in this

:55:40. > :55:44.chamber. They talk of a joined up Government, Mr Deputy Speaker. I did

:55:45. > :55:47.not think so. This will cost more money and passes the buck onto the

:55:48. > :55:52.hospitals and homeless services which are already overstretched and

:55:53. > :55:55.working flat out. Then there are the Housing associations. The Cambridge

:55:56. > :55:59.Housing Society group tell me that the overall impact of the LHA cap

:56:00. > :56:07.will be a loss of income to them of 537 pounds per year -- ?537,000 per

:56:08. > :56:14.year. It will plunge them into significant operating loss. That

:56:15. > :56:16.scheme houses 47 people. Vulnerable teenagers, people with learning

:56:17. > :56:20.difficulties, vulnerable women and vulnerable older people. In the

:56:21. > :56:31.words, this provision will be under immediate threat. Let me be generous

:56:32. > :56:34.for more -- for the moment. The Government change their mind before.

:56:35. > :56:37.We have heard powerful arguments on the side of the House today. Maybe

:56:38. > :56:42.the Government really did not understand the consequences of these

:56:43. > :56:45.proposals. If that is the case, they should listen carefully now. Let me

:56:46. > :56:52.to include by being slightly less generous. -- conclude. This proposal

:56:53. > :56:55.is part of a deadly cocktail of housing reforms that will decimate

:56:56. > :56:59.this sector that makes our country's housing problems worse. There is a

:57:00. > :57:03.constant gap between what this Government says and what it actually

:57:04. > :57:09.does. They talk about helping our country to live within its means. In

:57:10. > :57:12.reality, they are just mean. I urge the Government to think again. We

:57:13. > :57:18.all make mistakes, there is no shame in admitting that something is you

:57:19. > :57:24.have got it wrong. It is better than inflicting so much harm in so many

:57:25. > :57:31.people. I am extremely grateful to you, Mister Deputy is bigger. -- Mr

:57:32. > :57:35.Deputy Speaker. In my part of the world, the best thing that could be

:57:36. > :57:38.said of the party opposite, the Conservative Party, is that you know

:57:39. > :57:41.where you are with them. They might be cool but at least they are

:57:42. > :57:50.competent. But after today's debate and after the week in which the

:57:51. > :57:54.Department for Work and Pensions in particular, you have to wonder about

:57:55. > :57:57.the latter part of the sentence. The Government were defeated in the

:57:58. > :58:02.other place on the ludicrous suggestion that incomes should be

:58:03. > :58:07.carved out of the meaningful measure of child poverty that the last

:58:08. > :58:10.Labour Government introduced. We moved on to the Government having to

:58:11. > :58:16.acknowledge that they should now exempt those in receipt of carers'

:58:17. > :58:24.allowance from the punishment of the benefit cap, despite having in the

:58:25. > :58:29.courts, in just the Lassie Reeves, having spent ?50,000 defending the

:58:30. > :58:34.inclusion of carers under the benefit cap. This morning, we saw

:58:35. > :58:40.the extraordinary events in the health of the kill, -- the Court of

:58:41. > :58:48.Appeal, will the Government saw its cruel bedroom tax ruled not only

:58:49. > :58:52.cruel but unlawful, discriminating against disabled people and

:58:53. > :58:54.discriminating against my friend and fellow countrymen, Mister Paul

:58:55. > :59:01.Rutherford and his wife Susan and their profoundly disabled child,

:59:02. > :59:05.Warren. He was discriminated against over many years and had his day in

:59:06. > :59:09.court today. I only hope that the Government will reflect with a

:59:10. > :59:14.little more grace than the prime Minister did today at PMQs on the

:59:15. > :59:22.meaning of that ruling in the Court of Appeal. And we will come back to

:59:23. > :59:31.this place in order to give a ... I will give way. It was always totally

:59:32. > :59:34.unfair to include carers in the bedroom tax. They cannot go out to

:59:35. > :59:38.work due to the caving whiteboards and cannot increase the number of

:59:39. > :59:44.hours that they do. They already save the state billions. Is it not

:59:45. > :59:46.time that the 60,000 unpaid family carers should be exempted? Let's

:59:47. > :59:53.call for the Government to take action on this straightaway. Mr

:59:54. > :59:57.Deputy Speaker, that is just shroud waving. As an art we have held that

:59:58. > :00:01.the last few years? Not just Vermont's, but for years we have

:00:02. > :00:04.heard shroud waving about the bedroom tax and with that of

:00:05. > :00:10.honourable people. Suggesting that it might be unlawful. It just turns

:00:11. > :00:13.out, Mr Deputy Speaker, that it is unlawful, illegal and the Government

:00:14. > :00:19.must come back to the size and the aggressive. This afternoon, the

:00:20. > :00:23.Minister is chuntering from the front benches. It has been a welcome

:00:24. > :00:28.but extraordinary turn of events in this House when after having been

:00:29. > :00:33.asked by the side of the House and indeed by people interesting in the

:00:34. > :00:37.housing sector and the social rented sector, on hundreds of occasions in

:00:38. > :00:40.recent months, that you do if you did today, the minister and round

:00:41. > :00:45.and said he agreed with us. That we should address this equally unfair

:00:46. > :00:51.issue on the 1% cut in social housing rents. This is just part of

:00:52. > :00:58.the problem that the social supported housing sector faces. He

:00:59. > :01:01.is welcome, Mr Deputy Speaker, that the Minister without much good

:01:02. > :01:06.grace, I thought, conceded that there should be a delay. It is

:01:07. > :01:11.extraordinary that his Government has been looking into this policy

:01:12. > :01:16.not, I have to say, just since 2014, but it is for the Narraway since

:01:17. > :01:21.2011. Because it was 2011 that this Government for suggested that they

:01:22. > :01:23.ought to address this question of, in their view, high social rented

:01:24. > :01:28.costs versus local housing allowance. And five viewers later,

:01:29. > :01:35.they have not come to a conclusion as to what they will do. -- five

:01:36. > :01:40.years later. It is incompetence on in most gross scale. In the welfare

:01:41. > :01:44.and work committee, we lost count of the number of occasions when we were

:01:45. > :01:49.offered with excuses as to why that could not possibly be done and why

:01:50. > :01:53.this moratorium or, as we asked for, if the exemption, might not be

:01:54. > :01:56.affordable and allowed. In committee, I believe the word shroud

:01:57. > :02:02.waving was used on a number of occasions. We were also accused of

:02:03. > :02:05.jumping the gun with these measures, which were coming in for awhile and

:02:06. > :02:08.there was plenty of time for the Government to get papers in order

:02:09. > :02:19.and the policy right. I will give way. He makes a very eloquent case.

:02:20. > :02:23.Can he explain to the House why, in benign economic times, his own

:02:24. > :02:26.Government, when in power, did not deliver tax breaks to encourage

:02:27. > :02:31.extra care facilities and other specialist housing facilities to be

:02:32. > :02:33.developed? They stood still. Why was that? There was plenty of money

:02:34. > :02:39.coming in and he had the opportunity to do so. Let me be very clear, the

:02:40. > :02:45.National Audit Office has concluded that under the last Government, Tory

:02:46. > :02:49.and Liberal Government. There was a 45% reduction in the amount of

:02:50. > :02:55.funding for the housing sector. That is the reality for this Government.

:02:56. > :02:59.The further reality... We have not been in power for six years. There

:03:00. > :03:04.is only so long he can keep waving that particular shroud at me. The

:03:05. > :03:09.key point is, under his Government, 40% cut. With his Government, we

:03:10. > :03:14.face the prospect of the end of supported housing in this country

:03:15. > :03:18.unless there is a change of course from his Government. There has also

:03:19. > :03:22.been a lot of misunderstanding on the benches opposite as to what

:03:23. > :03:25.we're talking about today. I do not know whether they read the brief

:03:26. > :03:29.from the whips or they do not tell them the truth, but there are two

:03:30. > :03:35.measures being debated. The first is the one on which there is a one-year

:03:36. > :03:40.stay of execution. The cut by 1% of social housing residence. But the

:03:41. > :03:45.second and were important, which the Minister did not address, despite

:03:46. > :03:48.the questions from my right honourable friend, is the issue of

:03:49. > :03:52.the realisation of the amount of housing benefit available to those

:03:53. > :03:57.in social, rented accommodation with local housing allowances. That is

:03:58. > :04:01.the biggest, most substantial change that the Government is proposing to

:04:02. > :04:05.make. The honourable member previously said that this change has

:04:06. > :04:09.not been made and it is not happening. She should read her

:04:10. > :04:19.Government's statements. I will read to from the budget from last autumn.

:04:20. > :04:22.It said clearly that the Government will cap the amount of rent housing

:04:23. > :04:26.benefit will cover in the social sector to the relevant local housing

:04:27. > :04:33.allowance. I will give way in one minute. This will apply to tenancies

:04:34. > :04:38.signed after April 20 16. I my maths, that is in a couple of

:04:39. > :04:43.months. With housing benefit entitlements changing right across

:04:44. > :04:47.the board from April 20 18. This is not shroud waving jumping the gun.

:04:48. > :04:52.It is the opposition trying the attention to the House and it would

:04:53. > :04:58.seem members opposite a measure that will impact on their constituents in

:04:59. > :05:01.just a few months. I give way. I think the member opposite is

:05:02. > :05:05.misleading. The motion before us is about supported housing. That is

:05:06. > :05:09.talking about general needs housing benefit and there is a difference.

:05:10. > :05:12.There is no change in legislation. It is up for an extensive review

:05:13. > :05:15.about supported housing and housing benefit and there is a difference. I

:05:16. > :05:20.am sorry if the member opposite does not appreciate that. Mr Deputy

:05:21. > :05:28.Speaker, I am unusually lost for words in this place. Because it is

:05:29. > :05:35.extraordinary that the honourable member for Lewes does not understand

:05:36. > :05:39.what you're talking about. Supported housing is captured under the aegis

:05:40. > :05:42.of what we are talking. It is in the envelope of social housing. I will

:05:43. > :05:47.not give way to her any longer. There is no point. I will give way

:05:48. > :05:48.to the Minister if you would like to tell us what he's going to do about

:05:49. > :05:54.local housing allowance. I honourable gentleman in making his

:05:55. > :05:58.speech, he manages to brush over the fact that his honourable colleague

:05:59. > :06:02.who spoke earlier was a minister involved in bringing in the spare

:06:03. > :06:06.room subsidy initially. Maybe he can confronted says that the Labour

:06:07. > :06:11.government, the affordable housing programme we have got has delivered

:06:12. > :06:16.6% more supported homes per year than the Labour equivalent did

:06:17. > :06:20.before. It is quite adjusting the minister did not write to the rescue

:06:21. > :06:23.of his honourable friend because he knows she doesn't know what she is

:06:24. > :06:29.talking about. The truth is she could also have a further look... At

:06:30. > :06:36.the budget book produced by the government for the same spending

:06:37. > :06:40.review which scores quite clearly ?515 million is the saving that is

:06:41. > :06:44.anticipated from these cuts. The ISS goes further and says by the time

:06:45. > :06:52.they are fully unfermented it might be ?1.1 billion. The largest part of

:06:53. > :06:56.that is the change equalising housing benefit with local housing

:06:57. > :07:00.allowance, not the one state of execution you have seen today, now I

:07:01. > :07:04.have explained it, if she wants to come back I would be grateful. I am

:07:05. > :07:08.even more worried that he doesn't understand the difference that

:07:09. > :07:12.supported housing and housing allowance is much higher than the

:07:13. > :07:18.ordinary general needs housing benefit allowance and members

:07:19. > :07:23.opposite brought this debate to the chamber and B are supposed to be

:07:24. > :07:26.debating supported housing, not general needs housing, I'm shot the

:07:27. > :07:33.shadow minister doesn't understand the difference. -- I'm shocked. I

:07:34. > :07:39.have made the point Mr Deputy Speaker about general social housing

:07:40. > :07:44.and supported housing and that is absolutely clear. The other thing

:07:45. > :07:48.that is clear because ministers admitted that at the dispatch box is

:07:49. > :07:52.that she is right, supported housing does cost more money because it is

:07:53. > :07:57.bespoke and looking at the people with our example complex artistic

:07:58. > :08:06.needs or physical disabilities -- complex autistic. They cost more

:08:07. > :08:09.money to look after those people because of in-house concierge and

:08:10. > :08:12.all sorts of other things and that is why it is so wrong for the

:08:13. > :08:18.government to equalise the amount of housing benefit that they can get

:08:19. > :08:21.with local housing allowances available for the private rented

:08:22. > :08:27.sector. That is the issue we are discussing. It is not as who have

:08:28. > :08:32.raised this initially, it is the sector who have come to us and to

:08:33. > :08:38.ministers opposite on many occasions, I will quote a few. And

:08:39. > :08:40.Redford, chief Executive of the specialist housing association

:08:41. > :08:45.framework said this will mean the end of supported housing, all of our

:08:46. > :08:49.schemes will cause. All other as well as well. That seems to me to be

:08:50. > :08:57.fairly straightforward, I will give you a few more. Many other confirmed

:08:58. > :09:04.their schemes would be unviable if the cut went ahead. Ambaka 's

:09:05. > :09:07.horizon that I believe have 119 such supported housing bodies across

:09:08. > :09:14.London have confirmed it will have to close supported housing in London

:09:15. > :09:20.and elsewhere if these changes go ahead. Charlotte Norman of Saint

:09:21. > :09:24.Vincent housing says we cannot believe that government understands

:09:25. > :09:29.the consequences of these changes and the first extra costs that will

:09:30. > :09:33.fall into the public purse as a result of scheme closures. Nothing

:09:34. > :09:38.short of exemption for all such housing will be adequate and we very

:09:39. > :09:44.much hope that common sense will prevail. On this side of the house

:09:45. > :09:48.we sure a lot of common-sense from the members from Glasgow South West

:09:49. > :09:52.and the honourable member for Sheffield South East who is chairman

:09:53. > :09:57.of the select committee who asked the central question, what will

:09:58. > :10:00.happen to the equalisation with housing benefit that the Minister

:10:01. > :10:06.failed to mention, is that going to be exempted for supported housing

:10:07. > :10:09.associations, for specified housing and let me ask a further question

:10:10. > :10:13.that the Minister Phil to answer and his colleague might in a moment,

:10:14. > :10:18.will the wrens, if they do go up next year and not be cut by 1% go up

:10:19. > :10:21.in line with the formula as they would have done ordinarily or are

:10:22. > :10:27.they to be frozen, I would be grateful if the Minister could

:10:28. > :10:31.answer. The member for Southampton raised the issue of the Society of

:10:32. > :10:35.Saint James who helped 2000 people and will lose ?1 million. Members

:10:36. > :10:40.format of old Bolton South East raised personal experience, their

:10:41. > :10:43.deep knowledge of what it will mean for their constituents, the member

:10:44. > :10:47.for Birmingham Yardley spoke with particular expertise about her

:10:48. > :10:52.experience of running a women's refuge and explain how these changes

:10:53. > :10:58.would shut down that refuge and beg ministers to listen to her and to

:10:59. > :11:02.listen to the Home Secretary as to the value of those women's refuges

:11:03. > :11:07.and the damage that will be done to them. The members for brutal and

:11:08. > :11:11.Cambridge spoke as well. On the opposite side, members were

:11:12. > :11:14.sanguine. On the opposite side members dissembled. On the opposite

:11:15. > :11:21.side the members had the choice as to what the going to do to date, are

:11:22. > :11:25.they going to agree that nothing short of exemption on specialised

:11:26. > :11:30.supported housing is required in order to safeguard the most

:11:31. > :11:33.vulnerable of our communities. What we have heard today is welcome but

:11:34. > :11:37.insufficient and will become back to the dispatch box and agree with me

:11:38. > :11:39.that now was the time to admit they got it wrong and as they have done

:11:40. > :11:46.so many times this week, reverse ferret.

:11:47. > :11:52.This has been a very powerful and important debate and we have been

:11:53. > :11:55.listening to the arguments on both sides, very important points raised

:11:56. > :12:01.and a number of questions have been asked and I will do my best to cover

:12:02. > :12:05.as many of those as I can. Our welfare reform is about bringing

:12:06. > :12:08.wide-ranging reforms to the welfare system and bringing the budget back

:12:09. > :12:14.under control after years of overspending by Labour. My

:12:15. > :12:18.honourable friend for Peterborough where very eloquent in setting out

:12:19. > :12:22.the importance of this and our reforms are bringing fairness for

:12:23. > :12:27.hard-working taxpayers are making work pay and making welfare system

:12:28. > :12:31.and for the future. Protecting the most vulnerable, this is the key

:12:32. > :12:35.part to this debate today and as we progress with these important and

:12:36. > :12:39.necessary reforms we have stuck to our principle of protecting the most

:12:40. > :12:43.vulnerable. As Minister for disabled people the principle is particularly

:12:44. > :12:46.important to me and I know how important the right housing is for

:12:47. > :12:50.an individual's needs and I am proud of our record on helping those that

:12:51. > :12:55.need the most bought and I want to remind the house that on this record

:12:56. > :12:57.we have spent around ?50 billion every year on benefits alone to

:12:58. > :13:03.support people with disabilities or health conditions and spending will

:13:04. > :13:07.be higher in every year until 2020 than in 2010. We are spending ?400

:13:08. > :13:12.million to deliver 8000 specialist homes for the vulnerable, elderly or

:13:13. > :13:16.those with disabilities and funding for the disabled facilities grant

:13:17. > :13:22.which funds around 40,000 adaptions per year is due to increased by

:13:23. > :13:28.nearly 80% next year. We are providing ?870 billion of support --

:13:29. > :13:30.?870 million the discretionary housing payments in the next five

:13:31. > :13:36.years to help those who need support and the Department of health is

:13:37. > :13:39.committed to funding 7500 by the specialist homes for disabled and

:13:40. > :13:43.older people. We are also providing support to other vulnerable groups

:13:44. > :13:47.of ?40 million for victims of domestic abuse, which is a tripling

:13:48. > :13:50.of the support, you sure nobody is turned away from the support they

:13:51. > :13:55.need and it is a tribute to the honourable member for Birmingham

:13:56. > :13:58.Yardley, who does focus the house on the absolute importance of the

:13:59. > :14:02.services they provide, putting a real realism into that. I understand

:14:03. > :14:06.it, I have done a lot of work with women's aid in the last Parliament

:14:07. > :14:09.and I would pay tribute to my own Swindon's women's refuge. They

:14:10. > :14:13.cannot boast about what they do, it is behind closed doors but the

:14:14. > :14:18.honourable member has really focused minds and it is important to do.

:14:19. > :14:22.More than ?500 million has been spent since 2010 to tackle

:14:23. > :14:25.homelessness preventing almost 1 million households from becoming

:14:26. > :14:30.homeless since 2010. Turning to supported housing, it is a tribute

:14:31. > :14:34.to my honourable friend for Lewis and the honourable member for Mika

:14:35. > :14:40.field to set out that their real life experience, some of the

:14:41. > :14:43.challenges and opportunities in this area. One supported housing will

:14:44. > :14:47.recognise the value of supported housing sector, we want to ensure

:14:48. > :14:49.that the essential services they deliver continued to be provided

:14:50. > :14:54.within the context of driving appropriate value for money. Many

:14:55. > :15:00.members have put that on record and has woken about that support. Very

:15:01. > :15:04.powerful, very important that was done. We want to make sure the

:15:05. > :15:09.sector can continue to deliver important services and that is why

:15:10. > :15:13.we will be putting in place a one-year exemption from all

:15:14. > :15:16.supported accommodation and 1% rent reduction and I believe this will

:15:17. > :15:21.give us time to study the evidence from supported housing review which

:15:22. > :15:25.is due to report in the spring and consider the longer term solution

:15:26. > :15:27.for the supported sector. The honourable member for Sheffield

:15:28. > :15:31.South East as the number of questions and one of them was what

:15:32. > :15:38.happens to rents in supported housing for next years during the

:15:39. > :15:44.one-year delay and they will be in CPI plus 1% and reviewed after that.

:15:45. > :15:50.In terms of the review itself, it will tell us the size, scale and

:15:51. > :15:53.scope of supported housing, the policy options will be considered

:15:54. > :15:56.after the port is published in consultation with a wide range of

:15:57. > :16:04.stakeholders and the conclusions will be reached in June course as

:16:05. > :16:08.that is brought. I am reassured by what he says, will he ensure that

:16:09. > :16:13.both the Treasury and NHS England are involved in this issue because

:16:14. > :16:16.it is potent that there is proper coordination between acute hospital

:16:17. > :16:21.care and social care as we go into the future with the demographic

:16:22. > :16:24.issues we are currently facing. I thank my honourable friend for that

:16:25. > :16:28.intervention and we all accept in this says that this issue is far

:16:29. > :16:31.wider and we must look at that including all of that in the

:16:32. > :16:37.consultation. The honourable friend for certain rubble has asked me to

:16:38. > :16:43.take on board the comments on the housing bill and the honourable

:16:44. > :16:47.member from Cambridge highlighted YMCA, an important organisation and

:16:48. > :16:52.I'm pleased that the YMCA England chief executive has tweeted that it

:16:53. > :16:55.is a positive that that government has listened to the concerns of the

:16:56. > :17:02.sector and taken appropriate action to protect supported housing. If the

:17:03. > :17:06.house is to take him at his word that he wants the evidence from the

:17:07. > :17:09.review and then a consultation in order to make the policy decisions,

:17:10. > :17:17.will he therefore put back and have a moratorium on the application of

:17:18. > :17:22.the L H a benefit cut just like he is proposing to do with the rent

:17:23. > :17:25.cut, so the new tenancies from April this year will not be affected in

:17:26. > :17:38.the way that the Chancellor announced? New tenants come into

:17:39. > :17:43.effect in 2016. The 1% delay is just for the supported housing, so I'm

:17:44. > :17:53.afraid I cannot give a commitment to that. On the LH cap, it comes in

:17:54. > :17:56.2018. The question is, will the Minister do further changes in

:17:57. > :18:01.housing benefit related to LH just for supported housing from April

:18:02. > :18:05.this year, so doesn't apply for new tenancies until the review has been

:18:06. > :18:11.completed. ? Those changes will not come into effect, we will look at

:18:12. > :18:17.the review and I can assure members that the DWP will also be working

:18:18. > :18:24.closely to make sure the appropriate protections are in place for those

:18:25. > :18:28.supported housing as we go forward. Those changes do come into effect

:18:29. > :18:34.for new tenancies in supported housing from April this year, will

:18:35. > :18:39.the Minister defers those changes? For those in supported housing, they

:18:40. > :18:46.will... We are delaying that for a year. The rationale for changes in

:18:47. > :18:48.the social rented sector, we sit to our principles of protecting the

:18:49. > :18:53.most vulnerable but these are important reforms, we inherited a

:18:54. > :18:57.burgeoning housing benefit still and we had to get control of it. It

:18:58. > :19:01.started to do that but we have to go further. The housing benefit bill

:19:02. > :19:05.for England has risen by over 20% during the last ten years, point

:19:06. > :19:09.raised by my honourable friend. Part of the reason is that the rises in

:19:10. > :19:13.social rents have outstripped those in the private sector, highlighted

:19:14. > :19:18.by my friend from first and Malton. Social rents are up 60% compared to

:19:19. > :19:24.23% in the private sector. In the private sector the local housing

:19:25. > :19:27.allowance kerbs but there are no similar things in the social sector

:19:28. > :19:30.and that is why the wool cap social sector runs in the same way as the

:19:31. > :19:34.private sector and reduced rents in the social sector for that this will

:19:35. > :19:37.help the one third of those who don't claim any housing benefit in

:19:38. > :19:43.this sector who would see their rents come down. We will continue to

:19:44. > :19:47.protect the most vulnerable. Our wider housing reforms are just part

:19:48. > :19:51.of our ways to improve access, creating more choice and building

:19:52. > :19:53.more affordable homes and we are doubling the housing budget to more

:19:54. > :19:57.than ?20 billion in the next five-year to help ensure housing is

:19:58. > :20:04.prioritised for those who need it most. I believe sought social,

:20:05. > :20:07.affordable rented homes fell by 400000 and under the Conservative

:20:08. > :20:12.government, 700,000 new homes have been built in the past five years of

:20:13. > :20:15.which 270,000 have been affordable and we have broadened the

:20:16. > :20:21.opportunities to access housing to help to buy, right to buy and the 8

:20:22. > :20:25.billion bound commitment to deliver 400,000 more homes starts. This

:20:26. > :20:28.governor that tackling the chronic undersupply and access to housing,

:20:29. > :20:33.something the party opposite field to do. In conclusion, we will not

:20:34. > :20:38.fall into the trap of Labour's blank cheque approach and try to pay the

:20:39. > :20:41.way of problems without any reform to welfare, reforms bring fairness

:20:42. > :20:44.for hard-working taxpayers and making the welfare budget more

:20:45. > :20:46.sustainable for the future on doing this while providing the right

:20:47. > :20:52.protection for the most honourable in society.

:20:53. > :21:36.The question is as on the order paper. Division, clear the lobbies!

:21:37. > :21:41.Are you ready, folks? Yes, we are. Order, order. The question is as on

:21:42. > :29:03.the order paper. Order! Order! The ayes to the right,

:29:04. > :33:36.239. The nose to the left, 286. The ayes to the right, 239. The node

:33:37. > :33:42.to the left, 286. The nos habit. -- have it.

:33:43. > :33:54.We now come to the motion... We now come to the motion in the name of

:33:55. > :34:00.the Leader of the Opposition on prisons and probation. I'd call Andy

:34:01. > :34:05.Slaughter to move the motion. I beg to move the motion in my name and

:34:06. > :34:10.the names of my honourable friends. Prison and probation staff have some

:34:11. > :34:15.of the toughest jobs in the country. With few exceptions, they work with

:34:16. > :34:19.industry, compassion and resolution to protect the public and to help

:34:20. > :34:26.change lives through rehabilitation, all of us in this house over them

:34:27. > :34:32.our gratitude. In six years in the shadow justice team and also as MP

:34:33. > :34:37.for one of Britain's most iconic presence, Wormwood Scrubs, and in

:34:38. > :34:43.the past as a criminal barrister I have no -- visited many prisons. I

:34:44. > :34:46.have spoken to them and their representatives to whom I also pay

:34:47. > :34:53.to be. The conclusion is that the prison and the term includes the

:34:54. > :34:58.youth and adult estate, is not working contrary to the famous

:34:59. > :35:01.pronouncement of the noble Lord Lord Howard. From his statements as

:35:02. > :35:06.bitter so far, the Lord Chancellor may agree, the question today is

:35:07. > :35:10.what are he and his government going to do about it. It is the view of

:35:11. > :35:14.many in his party that prison isn't working. We have waited some time

:35:15. > :35:18.for a Parliamentary debate on the crisis in the prisons, this with a

:35:19. > :35:25.fourth in a week. I hope it is a reflection of the new priority we

:35:26. > :35:36.are giving to this issue. It would be... I am grateful, when I was in

:35:37. > :35:39.his position as Shadow prisons minister ten years ago, I could have

:35:40. > :35:46.put down a motion in the name of the official opposition in exactly the

:35:47. > :35:52.same terms as the first lines of his motion. Why didn't he do something

:35:53. > :35:57.about it then? I take the intervention in the spirit it is

:35:58. > :36:03.meant but I hope we are not going to have a war of who did what and when

:36:04. > :36:07.because as he will see when I go on it is not the last ten years, it is

:36:08. > :36:12.the last 50 years we are talking about. I want to make a special

:36:13. > :36:15.mention of the debate on prison reform in the other place on the

:36:16. > :36:22.21st January in the name of the noble lord, Lord Falmer lest the

:36:23. > :36:26.Lord Chancellor take exception to the wording that UK prisons are in

:36:27. > :36:31.crisis, he ended his excellent speech with these words, in 1970, we

:36:32. > :36:36.faced a prisons crisis, today we face a prison scandal. Every speech

:36:37. > :36:38.in a debate was superb, I hope this house can live up to those high

:36:39. > :36:49.standards today. The Minister said that he had no

:36:50. > :36:54.difficulty in supporting any of them. I assume the same could be

:36:55. > :36:59.said for the Lord Chancellor. The five points are deprivation of

:37:00. > :37:01.liberty but not to make life as uncomfortable as possible, and

:37:02. > :37:06.overcrowding, reduce the number of people sent to prison, do so by

:37:07. > :37:11.re-examining sentencing and past responsibility to the government and

:37:12. > :37:15.staff. The Chancellor spoke approvingly of these points. Does he

:37:16. > :37:19.agree with Lord Fowler and has Minister on the other four points,

:37:20. > :37:24.more importantly, if he does, how does he set out to accomplish them?

:37:25. > :37:29.It is not a trick question. Adults know if the best -- I don't know

:37:30. > :37:37.what mood the Chancellor is in today. He has set some reviews in

:37:38. > :37:41.progress, but what action does the government intends to take? I would

:37:42. > :37:47.like for him to add some substance to the rhetoric today. I will do so

:37:48. > :37:56.by setting out the scale of the task before him. In the 12 months up to a

:37:57. > :38:01.September 2015, there were many deaths in prison custody, 95

:38:02. > :38:06.suicides, up from 60 on the same period in 2010, 153 from natural

:38:07. > :38:09.causes up from 123, and seven homicides. There have been the same

:38:10. > :38:16.number of homicides in prisons in the last two years as in the

:38:17. > :38:23.receiving eight. In the 12 months to June 2015, there are 2281 reported

:38:24. > :38:30.incidence of self harm, up from 21% in just a year. There were 4156

:38:31. > :38:36.assaults on staff, 26 -- 20% rise from the year before. There were 578

:38:37. > :38:42.serious assaults on staff, a rise of 42% from the year before. And

:38:43. > :38:46.tragically, a prison officer, Lorraine Barwell, in the first such

:38:47. > :38:49.incident of its type in the quarter of a century, died in July of last

:38:50. > :38:54.year after being the victim of an attack in the line of duty one month

:38:55. > :38:58.earlier. We owe it to her and her family to make sure that her

:38:59. > :39:03.colleagues are as safe as possible. I will give way. I am very grateful

:39:04. > :39:07.to my honourable friend. He started off by setting out some quite

:39:08. > :39:11.staggering and frankly appalling statistics on the numbers of

:39:12. > :39:16.prisoners who have suddenly taken their own lives or who are self

:39:17. > :39:23.harming. Does this not underlined the very real problems of mental

:39:24. > :39:27.health in prisons, and what more does he think the government should

:39:28. > :39:32.be doing to tackle this very serious problem of mental ill health amongst

:39:33. > :39:35.the prisoner population? I know my honourable friend speaks from a

:39:36. > :39:38.position of knowledge on the subject and he is quite right and I am

:39:39. > :39:46.coming to that very issue in a moment. The prison riot squad was

:39:47. > :39:50.called out 343 times last year, once a day on average, compared to a 223

:39:51. > :39:58.times the year before and 118 times in 2010. Mobile phones, drugs, legal

:39:59. > :40:04.highs, the list of what you can smuggle into prison at the moment is

:40:05. > :40:07.elastic. According to one prisoner, at a prison the previous Lord

:40:08. > :40:12.Chancellor called an excellent model for the future, it was easier to get

:40:13. > :40:16.drugs they are and to get soap, so there are some restrictions. Earlier

:40:17. > :40:19.this month, seven officers reported suffering ill effects from

:40:20. > :40:28.inadvertently inhaling legal highs. You could not make that up. It would

:40:29. > :40:37.be remiss at this point took place on the record that the side effects

:40:38. > :40:42.of thousands is Bill made possessions a criminal offence, and

:40:43. > :40:45.they think he welcomes that. -- and I think he welcomed that. The issue

:40:46. > :40:53.we are dealing with here is smuggling contraband into prison.

:40:54. > :40:56.There is also an increasing number of drones being used. Figures

:40:57. > :41:01.released on Monday by the presence Minister showed it 25% of prisoners

:41:02. > :41:08.are in ever crowded cells, and this rises to over 80% in some presence.

:41:09. > :41:12.It is sometimes exacerbated by a extremely poor environments and

:41:13. > :41:19.squalid conditions. This had one member of staff saying that he would

:41:20. > :41:27.not keep a dog in wormwood scrubs. In the last 25 years, the prison

:41:28. > :41:31.population has almost doubled. It is projected to increase to 90,000 by

:41:32. > :41:40.2020. Staff are already struggling following cuts on an unprecedented

:41:41. > :41:46.scale. 9760 fewer operational prison staff and in 2010, nearly 5,000

:41:47. > :41:51.fewer prison officers since 2010, 250 prison governors resigned or

:41:52. > :41:53.moved jobs in the last five years. An education, the prisoner education

:41:54. > :41:57.trust reports that prisoners tell them they had to choose between

:41:58. > :42:02.going to the library and going to the shower because of the lack of

:42:03. > :42:05.staff to escort them. Nearly half of prisoners report having no

:42:06. > :42:09.qualifications and 22% of prisoners say they have been permanently

:42:10. > :42:17.excluded from school. The Lord Chancellor appointed someone to

:42:18. > :42:25.behead a prisoner education. Perhaps he can hear about -- to head

:42:26. > :42:31.prisoner education. 60% of prisoners who took their own last last year

:42:32. > :42:34.were not receiving assistance under proper processes, which are supposed

:42:35. > :42:39.to identify those prisoners who are at a heightened risk of suicide or

:42:40. > :42:44.self harm. I will give way. Thank you for giving way. I have a

:42:45. > :42:52.constituency that has two prisons. There is one privately run facility

:42:53. > :42:54.and then another one, and but have been inspected, and in both

:42:55. > :42:59.inspections, there was understaffing. Does he think that

:43:00. > :43:04.some of the issues he is identifying are due to staffing numbers in

:43:05. > :43:10.prisons being at their lowest in living memory? I think cuts in staff

:43:11. > :43:17.are at the heart of some of the problems being identified. There are

:43:18. > :43:19.restrictions on work and education and association, and this is leading

:43:20. > :43:24.to increased violence and to increase the poor behaviour in

:43:25. > :43:27.prisons and it is a very short-sighted development which I

:43:28. > :43:33.think the government realises perhaps too late. Turning to

:43:34. > :43:37.probation and reoffending, figures have revealed that almost one in ten

:43:38. > :43:42.offenders are convicted of an offence within 18 days of release.

:43:43. > :43:44.The probation and sectors report on the limitation of transforming

:43:45. > :43:49.rehabilitation has been published on the 15th of January. It highlighted

:43:50. > :43:55.the disparity in performance between the national probation service,

:43:56. > :44:04.which is -- and the 21, the privation companies managed by

:44:05. > :44:09.private providers. For the MPs, the figure was less than one fifth of

:44:10. > :44:15.the bond child protection, safeguarding on home visits,...

:44:16. > :44:22.Earlier this month, the Lord Chancellor stopped publishing

:44:23. > :44:26.figures on this. There were hundreds of experience probation staff being

:44:27. > :44:33.laid off across the country to promote the bottom line. Let me turn

:44:34. > :44:42.to the youth estate, and particularly the role of G4S. We

:44:43. > :44:48.welcome the fact that some prisons have been pets into special

:44:49. > :44:57.measures. -- have been put. By also would like -- I also would like...

:44:58. > :45:05.There looks to be a part failure by G4S. I have written to the Serious

:45:06. > :45:08.Fraud Office to ask they investigate allegations that his incidences of

:45:09. > :45:14.disorder were concealed to avoid G4S avoiding fines on its contract.

:45:15. > :45:19.There is an ongoing investigation going into the tagging contracts for

:45:20. > :45:26.financial gain. G4S has a truly dismal record of managing public

:45:27. > :45:30.contracts here and abroad. At one prison, six staff were dismissed and

:45:31. > :45:33.the contract terminated this September, following an inspection

:45:34. > :45:38.support that said some staff were on drugs while on duty and behaved

:45:39. > :45:44.extremely appropriately with young people. The company taking over the

:45:45. > :45:50.contract is not in this country because they are in origin the US

:45:51. > :45:55.prison firm and as such they have resided over a write in an Arizona

:45:56. > :46:00.State prison and run eight usability in Mississippi which a judge

:46:01. > :46:06.described as periodic mayhem and staffing an attitude which Leeds to

:46:07. > :46:11.perpetual danger to inmates and staff.

:46:12. > :46:27.Some of the directors helped set up Abreu. In Baghdad. There has been an

:46:28. > :46:33.inquiry called for comment -- there has been an inquiry called into

:46:34. > :46:36.this. Thank you for giving way. On the Justice Committee, we

:46:37. > :46:40.interviewed the chief inspector and found his answers on ministerial

:46:41. > :46:45.interference were very interesting. As he agree with me that, to the

:46:46. > :46:48.outside world, the fact that this contract is not being renewed makes

:46:49. > :46:55.it looks like he was doing an effective job in helping the

:46:56. > :47:02.Ministry of Justice to account? -- girl holding. My honourable friend

:47:03. > :47:08.makes an actually good points. If the Lord Chancellor is a prison

:47:09. > :47:14.reformer, we are prepared to work with him. He could start with a

:47:15. > :47:18.Prison Reform Trust report on correction care that looks at

:47:19. > :47:23.successful models around the world. Successful prisons are becoming

:47:24. > :47:26.smaller, more focused and more rooted locally, which is why the

:47:27. > :47:36.Lord Chancellor was right to abandon plans for his predecessors newborn

:47:37. > :47:39.still. We are it is -- new or stove. If the consequence is that prisons

:47:40. > :47:45.are built a long way from friends and family or we move from local

:47:46. > :47:49.prisons to Titans prisons, that is its own drawbacks. We need prison

:47:50. > :47:55.watchdogs with Realty and real independence. The outgoing inspector

:47:56. > :48:00.has done a great job in spite not because of the government. To take

:48:01. > :48:04.my honourable friend's point, the report last week that the MO J have

:48:05. > :48:12.tried to control or Muslim were outrageous. -- or muscle pain.

:48:13. > :48:22.Let's use this opportunity to shake things up. We need a stronger, more

:48:23. > :48:24.independent inspectorate, able to produce reports with total

:48:25. > :48:34.independence from the Ministry of Justice and conduct more frequent

:48:35. > :48:39.and unannounced inspections. He paints a very bleak picture, and of

:48:40. > :48:43.course, we must always do more, but does he accept that in a recent

:48:44. > :48:46.chief inspector import, it was stated that the condition for

:48:47. > :48:53.outcomes for women has impaired and the number of children in custody

:48:54. > :48:56.has gone down? I accept what the honourable lady has said. I am

:48:57. > :48:58.painting a realistic picture because I think that needs to be the

:48:59. > :49:06.starting point for the improvement and I think members on both sides

:49:07. > :49:10.would agree. The decline in youth custody is extremely impressive. It

:49:11. > :49:15.has happened under successive governments and has gone down from a

:49:16. > :49:18.figure of over 3000 to under 1000 now, but we are concerned about the

:49:19. > :49:23.conditions and treatment of those young people who are still in

:49:24. > :49:27.custody and the type of facility they are in, and the incidences we

:49:28. > :49:31.have seen at Midway and elsewhere are an example of the fact that

:49:32. > :49:37.things are failing in that sector as much as they are elsewhere. As my

:49:38. > :49:43.honourable friend of the Member for Darlington said, too often, in

:49:44. > :49:48.response to prison reports, too often we see the response to a poor

:49:49. > :49:53.inspection report centre on the appointment of a new governor or the

:49:54. > :49:56.assertion that things have improved dramatically since the poor

:49:57. > :49:59.inspection took place. It is time we put much greater effort into

:50:00. > :50:03.preventing people getting involved in crime in the first place. A

:50:04. > :50:10.renewed focus on education and stepping into the rock young people

:50:11. > :50:14.from a life of crime, we must do better for trans people in our

:50:15. > :50:21.system. The dying for Justice report by the Institute of race relations

:50:22. > :50:27.and the Harris review both reveal a lapse -- both reveal over

:50:28. > :50:31.representations in some sectors. Yesterday I spoke at a meeting here

:50:32. > :50:35.about the discriminatory effects of enterprise charges on certain

:50:36. > :50:40.individuals and groups and asked the Lord Chancellor to investigate that

:50:41. > :50:45.area of law as his predecessor failed to do. In light of the number

:50:46. > :50:50.of people who wish to speak, I am going to terminate my remarks here,

:50:51. > :50:54.but let me do so by saying I welcome the change in tone on prisons since

:50:55. > :51:00.the Lord Chancellor's appointment, but so far, that is about all it is.

:51:01. > :51:07.It is possible to be tough on crime, to put the protection of the public

:51:08. > :51:17.first, as well as rehabilitation, but it is also true, that the agree

:51:18. > :51:23.of civilization and society can be judged by entering its prisons. It

:51:24. > :51:26.is in the self interest of every prison that prisoners having served

:51:27. > :51:31.their time become productive members of society and do not continue to

:51:32. > :51:37.pose a risk through reoffending. The Lord Chancellor may not be a muesli

:51:38. > :51:40.muncher, as he put it yesterday, but he is the Minister for porridge, and

:51:41. > :51:51.it is about time he served up something substantial.

:51:52. > :52:05.Secretary of State for justice. The question is as on the order paper.

:52:06. > :52:08.Thank you, can I congratulate... Coming from Aberdeen, porridge is

:52:09. > :52:15.not necessarily something we consider an attractive! The member

:52:16. > :52:21.from Shipley may be relieved to hear. Firstly, I congratulate the

:52:22. > :52:26.member for Hammersmith on securing this debate and I can thank him for

:52:27. > :52:30.the serious way he laid up the scale of the challenge which raises my

:52:31. > :52:36.department and all of us in the house. He drew attention to the

:52:37. > :52:39.fourth debate on this and he was absently right to draw attention to

:52:40. > :52:45.the excellent debate the House of Lords had last week. It was a debate

:52:46. > :52:50.on emotion initiated by Lord Fowler, a former Conservative Cabinet

:52:51. > :52:54.minister and it's striking how many colleagues are here today. It's

:52:55. > :52:58.important that across the house we recognise the cause of prison reform

:52:59. > :53:04.is one that is shared by people from every party and should be Ricardo --

:53:05. > :53:09.regarded as the province of any particular organisation. Can I also,

:53:10. > :53:13.in thanking them, draw attention to the fact both the member for

:53:14. > :53:17.Hammersmith and most speakers in the House of Lords also took the

:53:18. > :53:22.opportunity in the time allowed to thank those who work in our prisons.

:53:23. > :53:30.It is important we all place on the record come if we have time, that we

:53:31. > :53:33.all place our gratitude for the carriage and arduous nests of those

:53:34. > :53:37.who work in a prisons, not just prison officers but teachers and

:53:38. > :53:42.others and I will give way in a second. I had the opportunity to

:53:43. > :53:47.visit Manchester prison, Strangeways as it used to be known with my

:53:48. > :53:51.colleague and I talked to a young man who worked in the segregation

:53:52. > :53:55.unit and I asked why he chose to work with these offenders and he

:53:56. > :54:01.explained that he came from a part of the city particularly affected by

:54:02. > :54:05.crime. He wanted to do something in his own career and profession to

:54:06. > :54:11.help make his community safer. The reason he chose to work there was

:54:12. > :54:14.because he believes the relationships he could form there

:54:15. > :54:20.might be able to change their lives for the better. And to make his

:54:21. > :54:24.community safer. That idealism is typical of those who work in the

:54:25. > :54:26.prisons and reinforces an essential point, the quality of the

:54:27. > :54:32.relationship between those who work in the prisons and those for whom

:54:33. > :54:36.they care is not soft or in any way a retreat from public safety, it is

:54:37. > :54:43.critical to ensuring public safety. I give way. The minister may be

:54:44. > :54:50.aware that the number of attacks on our prison staff has increased by

:54:51. > :54:54.42%, these range from severe cuts to damages to internal organs and

:54:55. > :55:00.fractures as well. In order to keep people working in a prisons so hard

:55:01. > :55:07.as he outlines, witty order a review into looking at safety at work for

:55:08. > :55:13.prison staff? She makes a fair point, and I don't deny the scale of

:55:14. > :55:18.the problem outlined in the statistics she deployed or those

:55:19. > :55:22.others deploy and it is the case that the service is running a

:55:23. > :55:25.violent reduction programme studying why it is there has been this

:55:26. > :55:29.upsurge in violence, it is important to bear in mind there are some

:55:30. > :55:33.factors acknowledged by both sides that contribute to that, the pattern

:55:34. > :55:37.of offenders, those in prison contain more because of violent and

:55:38. > :55:43.other offences and it is also the case that the spread of new

:55:44. > :55:46.psychoactive substances, misleadingly called legal highs but

:55:47. > :55:50.they are lethal highs has contributed to a lack of

:55:51. > :55:54.self-control, psychosis increased mental health problems and violence.

:55:55. > :55:59.There are difficult choices to take to ensure we can limit the

:56:00. > :56:04.widespread availability of these drugs and keep people safe and I

:56:05. > :56:08.will discuss those in a moment. I want to stress that I do agree we

:56:09. > :56:13.face a problem, I do not use the word crisis and there would not like

:56:14. > :56:15.to use that word because I think it's potentially undermines the

:56:16. > :56:21.morale of those working in the prisons and secondly it might draw

:56:22. > :56:27.attention away to the incremental changes we need to make which can

:56:28. > :56:32.add up together to a significant programme of prison reform. If we

:56:33. > :56:37.allow ourselves to be panicked by headlines and to be scared into

:56:38. > :56:43.overreaction then we may not be able to pursue the solid incremental

:56:44. > :56:49.steps we need to take to improve the situation. I was struck by the fact

:56:50. > :56:53.the member for Liverpool Walton was concerned about numbers in the

:56:54. > :56:59.prisons and it is understandable that for those of us who do care

:57:00. > :57:06.about not just the safety of staff but the effectiveness of the prison

:57:07. > :57:11.regime, but I say in the last year there has been an increase of 500 in

:57:12. > :57:16.the number of prison officers and also there is no absolute

:57:17. > :57:20.correlation between the number of prison officers between the nature

:57:21. > :57:24.of the regime and instances of violence. I'm not denying that we

:57:25. > :57:31.need to ensure prisons are properly staffed and we need to keep prison

:57:32. > :57:38.officers safe but the nature of the security in prison is a consequence

:57:39. > :57:41.of a number of factors. I give way. He is right, not only should there

:57:42. > :57:47.be safe staffing levels but we have a duty of care to ensure there are

:57:48. > :57:52.safe staffing levels and it was the Inspector of prisons who identified

:57:53. > :57:58.the correlation between low staff numbers and the propensity for drugs

:57:59. > :58:02.on the prison estate. The honourable member is right to say that we do

:58:03. > :58:06.need to be vigilant about making sure we have not just the people in

:58:07. > :58:09.place but the training to support them to deal with the problem. The

:58:10. > :58:15.fact he mentions the Chief Inspector of prisons lets me repeat that I'm

:58:16. > :58:18.grateful to Nick Hardwick for the role he played, it is not

:58:19. > :58:22.comfortable reading for someone in my job to read his latest annual

:58:23. > :58:29.report but I would rather we had someone who told us the truth and

:58:30. > :58:33.insured we performed our duties as elected representatives and as

:58:34. > :58:38.ministers in the full knowledge of the truth than someone who felt that

:58:39. > :58:44.they had to varnish or edit the truth. While Nick Hardwick and I do

:58:45. > :58:49.not come from the same place on the ideological spectrum, it is because

:58:50. > :58:53.I am committed to using every talented voice and experienced pair

:58:54. > :58:57.of hands I can to improve the prison system but I'm delighted he accepted

:58:58. > :59:02.my invitation to chair the parole board. I also wanted to stress that

:59:03. > :59:07.while understandably in an opposition Day debate the member for

:59:08. > :59:11.Hammersmith will point the finger at some of the failings he alleges are

:59:12. > :59:16.unique to the Conservatives and it is understandable he will look at

:59:17. > :59:23.the trends that appeared to have worsened under a Conservative

:59:24. > :59:27.government, it is appropriate to recognise there were problems as my

:59:28. > :59:32.right honourable friend the member for Market Harborough announced and

:59:33. > :59:37.the labour as well. Reoffending, a real index of how effective our

:59:38. > :59:42.prisons are is broadly unchanged. I do not say that as a partisan point,

:59:43. > :59:50.I want to emphasise the difficulties all of space in improving the prison

:59:51. > :59:54.and probation service. In 2946% of those serving custodial sentences

:59:55. > :59:58.reoffended, the figure now is 45.1. If I wanted to make a partisan

:59:59. > :00:06.point, I would say it declined but the difference is insignificant. I

:00:07. > :00:11.think he is making an important point about reoffending and I wonder

:00:12. > :00:14.if he considered the suggestion I made about merging probation with

:00:15. > :00:17.the police so offender management outside the prison estate becomes

:00:18. > :00:20.the responsibility of the police who in the end are picking up the pieces

:00:21. > :00:26.and whether we might see a step change in the numbers he outlines if

:00:27. > :00:34.we made that move as well as a large financial saving. I thank him for

:00:35. > :00:39.the work he did as Deputy Mayor of London he was responsible for the

:00:40. > :00:45.Mayor office for crime and she contributed to the reduction in

:00:46. > :00:48.knife crime on the streets. Prisons and probation is cannot work

:00:49. > :00:52.effectively unless there is close working relationships with the

:00:53. > :00:57.police service. I do caution a change at this point of the kind he

:00:58. > :01:04.makes. It is a fascinating idea, it has been put to me by others whom I

:01:05. > :01:05.respect but were 12 months into the transforming rehabilitation

:01:06. > :01:10.programme initiated by my predecessor and it is only

:01:11. > :01:13.appropriate we acknowledge that the programme has seen an increase in

:01:14. > :01:18.the number of front line officers again of more than 500, it has

:01:19. > :01:23.brought in commercial expertise but also the charitable and voluntary

:01:24. > :01:28.sector and for the first time there is a direct requirement to provide

:01:29. > :01:34.support for those prisoners who leave after serving sentences of 12

:01:35. > :01:39.months or less. I think that is a humane and wise decision on the part

:01:40. > :01:43.of my predecessor because we know that it is those people who spend

:01:44. > :01:48.swords at -- shorter sentences are likely to reoffend and we can debate

:01:49. > :01:53.the consequences they tried that but what is undeniable is that if

:01:54. > :01:58.someone has served a shorter sentence and if they are part of

:01:59. > :02:02.that cohort to reoffend they deserve the support of probation just as

:02:03. > :02:06.much if not more than other offenders. The situation that

:02:07. > :02:09.prevailed where these offenders would get ?46 and be left to their

:02:10. > :02:14.own devices as they went to the prison gate has been replaced by my

:02:15. > :02:18.predecessor and it is only appropriate this house, whatever

:02:19. > :02:27.other criticisms acknowledge that was a step forward which he was

:02:28. > :02:33.responsible for. I'm grateful. He is right to highlight the persistent

:02:34. > :02:38.failure of improving those reoffending rates. Part of the

:02:39. > :02:43.challenge for successfully rehabilitating a prisoner is making

:02:44. > :02:47.sure their health and welfare is looked after whilst they are in

:02:48. > :02:51.prison but also when they are released that there is adequate

:02:52. > :02:55.support in the community for those mental health needs. What more does

:02:56. > :03:06.he think should be done that isn't being done? He makes a good point

:03:07. > :03:10.and let me answer it by saying more about my analysis and shared view on

:03:11. > :03:16.the front bench about what contributes to crime and how we

:03:17. > :03:25.might reduce it. There are... More than 85,000 people in prison, 5000

:03:26. > :03:30.of them are female, almost as many are foreign national offenders and

:03:31. > :03:34.you want to reduce that by having many serving sentences abroad. Of

:03:35. > :03:39.the remainder, there are some who have made a conscious decision to do

:03:40. > :03:45.the wrong thing. They have crossed a moral line and society has to make

:03:46. > :03:48.it clear with a serious punishment that they should not be let out. It

:03:49. > :03:53.isn't that they are a danger to others, we need to enforce the

:03:54. > :03:58.principal, the bright line between right and wrong. There are others in

:03:59. > :04:03.the prison system who will be suffering from mental health

:04:04. > :04:07.problems, sometimes serious personality disorders and while they

:04:08. > :04:11.pose a danger to the public, they also pose a danger to themselves and

:04:12. > :04:16.we need to ensure we improve what has been called diversion and

:04:17. > :04:20.liaison, the early detection to make sure there was an appropriate

:04:21. > :04:24.solution and if we do need to keep them safe whether in a secure

:04:25. > :04:27.hospital or prison, we need to ensure the mental health provision

:04:28. > :04:32.for them and one thing I've done is talk to the Secretary of State for

:04:33. > :04:39.health, the minister for prisons and I'm due to talk to Simon Stephens to

:04:40. > :04:47.ensure we can develop AIDS was -- more sophisticated approach. I'm

:04:48. > :04:53.grateful for the work from Lord Bradley whose work contains a number

:04:54. > :04:59.of powerful recommendations. I have done some work in my local area with

:05:00. > :05:03.a veterans group suffering from post-traumatic stress disorder. We

:05:04. > :05:10.have dinner at work in the United States and one example I have is a

:05:11. > :05:15.treatment coach, the best example, the first one set up and out of 300

:05:16. > :05:19.cases not one of them reoffended. Could I ask the Secretary of State

:05:20. > :05:22.would he be prepared to meet with people who are involved in this work

:05:23. > :05:29.to try to see if we can make this work in everybody's interest? It is

:05:30. > :05:37.a good point, firstly it is over to the case that we take seriously the

:05:38. > :05:43.position of veterans of the system, my colleague at the behest of my