04/02/2016

:00:00. > :00:00.hearted apology for my failure to observe this important rule. I thank

:00:00. > :00:13.the honourable gentleman for what he has said. We now come to the select

:00:14. > :00:17.committee statement. The chair of the relevant select committee, Mr

:00:18. > :00:22.Bernard Jenkin, will speak on his subject for up to ten minutes,

:00:23. > :00:29.during which, as those familiar with the procedure will realise and those

:00:30. > :00:33.who are not will now learn, no interventions will be taken. At the

:00:34. > :00:39.conclusion of his statement, I will call or whoever is in the chair will

:00:40. > :00:45.call, members to put questions on the subject and Mr Bernard Jenkin to

:00:46. > :00:51.return to those questions. Interventions should be brief and

:00:52. > :01:02.the front bench may take part in questioning. I call the chair of the

:01:03. > :01:05.committee, Mr Bernard Jenkin. I am very grateful to the back bed

:01:06. > :01:11.business committee for the opportunity to make this statement

:01:12. > :01:21.are now report entitled the collapse of Kid's Company. We found an

:01:22. > :01:28.extraordinary catalogue of failings of governance had taken part --

:01:29. > :01:33.taken place in this charity. First may I say how it will be obvious how

:01:34. > :01:40.many feel blamed by this report but we set about investigating this with

:01:41. > :01:45.a view to finding lessons to be learned, not to find blame. Unless

:01:46. > :01:49.we can learn lessons, there will be an increased likelihood that events

:01:50. > :01:54.like this will be repeated. First on the question of professional firms,

:01:55. > :02:00.the charity's auditors repeated in every audit letter that reserves in

:02:01. > :02:06.this charity were very low. The charity never acted on this advice

:02:07. > :02:11.and instead were keen to trumpet each year what they called a clean

:02:12. > :02:19.audit. Under questioning, the auditors said the charity had been

:02:20. > :02:24.living permanently on a knife edge. This sense of urgency was not

:02:25. > :02:29.communicated in their former adviser to the company. He also candidly

:02:30. > :02:35.admitted that the count -- the auditors should have informed the

:02:36. > :02:40.Charity commission of their concerns under section 156 of the charities

:02:41. > :02:49.act, 2011. Here is a lesson that I hope all auditors will learned. We

:02:50. > :02:55.also cross-examined PKF, he did an investigation into the governance

:02:56. > :02:59.and controls of the charity on behalf of the Cabinet Office. We

:03:00. > :03:16.were concerned about how they evolved the remit of Government

:03:17. > :03:20.controls and this report came to be of limited value in the Cabinet

:03:21. > :03:23.Office. Although it was read, it did not have the value that was

:03:24. > :03:27.intended. This raises the question about how the Government manages

:03:28. > :03:30.professional firms as well as how they conduct themselves in regards

:03:31. > :03:37.to their professional responsibilities. We also looked for

:03:38. > :03:47.advice from PricewaterhouseCoopers but two had so little time in the

:03:48. > :03:53.run-up to the collapse of Kid's Company, that what they gave us was

:03:54. > :03:57.a very little value. PWC should have been much more candid with the

:03:58. > :04:02.Government about how much value their work could be to the

:04:03. > :04:07.Government. For the Charity commission, the Charity commission

:04:08. > :04:12.has a statutory duty to tackle abuse and mismanagement in charities. It

:04:13. > :04:16.did not do so with kids Company. Prior to 2015, the Charity

:04:17. > :04:20.commission did not engage with Kid's Company as it received very few

:04:21. > :04:24.complaints. Why did so people -- so few people complain to the Charity

:04:25. > :04:32.commission, given that this was a charity with mixed reputation for so

:04:33. > :04:39.long? The Charity commission should have a much higher profile in order

:04:40. > :04:44.to attract complaints, as an avenue for complaints, and be much more

:04:45. > :04:58.responsive to concerns raised about the charity.

:04:59. > :05:05.The Government needs to reverse cuts in the Charity commission to enable

:05:06. > :05:09.it to carry out its function. We also recommend it takes new powers

:05:10. > :05:13.to hold hearings and produce reports and recommendations about charities.

:05:14. > :05:16.It should not fall to a select committee of this house to produce

:05:17. > :05:23.reports on the activities of individual charities. For the

:05:24. > :05:26.Government, Kids Company received over 42 million in grants from

:05:27. > :05:31.central Government across several administrations. It has not had to

:05:32. > :05:37.compete for a ground since 2013. Other charities have voiced bitter

:05:38. > :05:41.discontent at the unfairness of this. The Government will need to

:05:42. > :05:45.work hard to restore faith in the grant giving system of Whitehall.

:05:46. > :05:50.Kids Company enjoyed unique privileged and significant access to

:05:51. > :05:53.senior ministers and prime ministers, and leaders of the

:05:54. > :05:59.opposition of three successive administrations. Some witnesses said

:06:00. > :06:02.they were intimidated by the support. Questions have been raised

:06:03. > :06:09.about whether this affected funding decisions. It discouraged people

:06:10. > :06:12.from raising concerns. Government lacked any objective assessment of

:06:13. > :06:17.Kids Company's activities and outcomes and the effectiveness of

:06:18. > :06:20.its governance. Government must improve its capability so it is less

:06:21. > :06:26.reliant upon external reviews when making assessments about charities.

:06:27. > :06:29.The civil service should be commended for resisting the hold

:06:30. > :06:36.that Kids Company had over so many others, but their advice was

:06:37. > :06:39.overridden. Ministers should not allow Charity representatives to

:06:40. > :06:44.exploit their access to Government in a way that might biggest route to

:06:45. > :06:47.be unethical. Ministers should not override or risk creating the

:06:48. > :06:51.perception that they are overriding official advice to hand over funding

:06:52. > :06:57.on the basis of personal prejudice or political considerations. This

:06:58. > :07:00.raises questions about how conflict-of-interest for ministers

:07:01. > :07:05.are addressed in Government with respect to charity funding. The

:07:06. > :07:10.awarding of commercial contracts could never have been conducted on

:07:11. > :07:15.the same basis. The real message of this report is about charity

:07:16. > :07:19.trustees. It is the same message as our report about charity funding

:07:20. > :07:24.last week. We found that trustees are some of the most famous names in

:07:25. > :07:28.the country have failed to understand what was being done in

:07:29. > :07:32.their name. Both these reports highlight the role of trustees of

:07:33. > :07:36.charities, the primary responsibility of trustees is the

:07:37. > :07:40.good governance and maintenance of the reputation of their charities.

:07:41. > :07:44.The primary responsible at the of Kids Company's collapse rests with

:07:45. > :07:52.the trustees, who failed in their duty. I do not doubt the good faith

:07:53. > :07:57.of every trustee who served this charity, I have evidence that some

:07:58. > :08:01.tried so hard to do the right thing. But the only conclusion anyone can

:08:02. > :08:05.reach is they either did not know or understand the implications of what

:08:06. > :08:11.was going on or they knew and failed to act. The Charity commission 's

:08:12. > :08:16.guidance requires trustees to make decisions solely on the Charity's

:08:17. > :08:22.interests, so they should not allow their judgment to be swayed by

:08:23. > :08:28.personal produces or personalities. This appears to be exactly what

:08:29. > :08:33.happened in Kids Company. It must be in danger of happening in every

:08:34. > :08:38.charity where there is a powerful and influential founder who has

:08:39. > :08:44.built up a large charity. The lesson is universal for all trustees. They

:08:45. > :08:48.did not have the knowledge on the trustee body or the experience of

:08:49. > :08:52.psychotherapy or youth services to be able to interrogate the operating

:08:53. > :09:00.model on safeguarding procedures at Kids Company that they should have

:09:01. > :09:04.had. In conclusion, it would be wrong to scapegoat any single

:09:05. > :09:09.individual for what occurred, but there are lessons which the house

:09:10. > :09:14.should draw, the Government should draw, the Charity commission should

:09:15. > :09:18.draw, the advisers should draw, but most important, that the Government

:09:19. > :09:26.needs to understand about what went wrong and how this can be rectified

:09:27. > :09:31.in future. I pay tribute to the honourable member and all members of

:09:32. > :09:35.the committee for this important report, which has shone a light onto

:09:36. > :09:40.what is a sorry for all concerned. Not least for those children who

:09:41. > :09:45.turned to Kids Company in their hour of need. I would like to pay tribute

:09:46. > :09:49.to the thousands of volunteers and workers in the sector who do so much

:09:50. > :09:54.to support young people, usually without the same levels of funding

:09:55. > :09:57.and freedom that Kids Company enjoyed. It is a shame that so much

:09:58. > :10:02.good work is at risk of being tarnished by this unique failure. I

:10:03. > :10:07.want to ask the member, having read the report and the evidence given in

:10:08. > :10:10.the senior civil service, about the way the grants were administered and

:10:11. > :10:15.whether he feels anything has changed since his report. The

:10:16. > :10:19.Government have passed a bill to beef up the Charity commission 's

:10:20. > :10:22.regulation of the sector, especially when it comes to just these. Does he

:10:23. > :10:26.feel the Government have learned their own lessons? It is clear that

:10:27. > :10:32.rules which apply to other charities did not apply to Kids Company. They

:10:33. > :10:37.have not had to compete for a grant for central Government money since

:10:38. > :10:39.2013. The committee was told by a former Conservative minister that

:10:40. > :10:44.Kids Company appear to have a lower threshold of proof to get money from

:10:45. > :10:51.public funds and its Chief Executive is almost the poster girl of the Big

:10:52. > :10:54.Society summit. I ask whether the Government have actually

:10:55. > :10:59.acknowledged their role in this saga and have taken any concrete steps to

:11:00. > :11:06.ensure they never could visit in a charity like this a game? -- they

:11:07. > :11:11.are never complicit in a charity like this game? It is plain to see

:11:12. > :11:18.that there was much good work going on. It has been lost. Many

:11:19. > :11:21.vulnerable young people were dependent upon this charity, and

:11:22. > :11:27.they have been left forlorn and bereft. The employees and

:11:28. > :11:32.volunteers, there were many who were deeply committed to the work of that

:11:33. > :11:39.charity. They feel deeply betrayed what has happened and let down. It

:11:40. > :11:45.has caused distress. I am pleased to inform the house that out of Kids

:11:46. > :11:54.Company, there is already evidence of things being salvaged, things

:11:55. > :11:57.being rebuilt, in the sector. We wish those who are going to fund and

:11:58. > :12:02.support those things every success, because there is a gap that this

:12:03. > :12:09.charity was seeking to fill in the needs of our society. Yes, we are

:12:10. > :12:12.recommending more powers for the Charity commission, even beyond what

:12:13. > :12:16.is put in this bill. We would like the Charity commission to be

:12:17. > :12:22.recommending courses for charity trustees, so that trustees have

:12:23. > :12:26.somewhere to go and learn. The Institute of directors does courses

:12:27. > :12:32.for nonexecutive directors, where is the equivalent for charity trustees?

:12:33. > :12:36.They have just an odorous a set of responsibilities. The executive is

:12:37. > :12:42.not responsible, it is not the chief executive, it is the trustees who

:12:43. > :12:46.are reliable. It is not just the chairman, it is all of them. We

:12:47. > :12:54.would like the commission to have powers to hold hearings that are

:12:55. > :12:59.legally privileged, have a statutory enquiry, so we can hear evidence and

:13:00. > :13:04.receive evidence that cannot be impugned in the courts. So that

:13:05. > :13:10.people can go to the commission without fear of their job, of

:13:11. > :13:14.reprisals, of being traduced in the press if they have concerns about

:13:15. > :13:18.charities, so the commission can hold proper hearings and people can

:13:19. > :13:26.speak like they speak to select committees are with neither fear nor

:13:27. > :13:38.favour. She does raise the question about conflict-of-interest,

:13:39. > :13:41.ministers did not quite understand. If the senior effective of a charity

:13:42. > :13:45.appears on a public platform with somebody who becomes Prime Minister,

:13:46. > :13:53.and is photographed in the Cabinet room with the Prime Minister at the

:13:54. > :13:57.launch of a Government initiative, there is a mutual interest between

:13:58. > :14:07.the two of them that is not being reflected in the way that decisions

:14:08. > :14:10.have been made in this case. If the political or financial interests of

:14:11. > :14:15.the charity become aligned with the political interests of certain

:14:16. > :14:19.ministers, ministers like that should remove themselves from those

:14:20. > :14:25.decisions, as they would in a commercial arrangement. It is a

:14:26. > :14:31.matter... We are into a new arrangement that we are going to

:14:32. > :14:37.require the Government to consider this seriously and possibly amend

:14:38. > :14:40.the code accordingly. The ultimate responsibility for the failure of

:14:41. > :14:46.Kids Company lay with the Board of Trustees. Does he agree that among

:14:47. > :14:53.the many lessons to be learned from this sorry episode, the Board of

:14:54. > :14:55.Trustees should include members with appropriate qualifications for the

:14:56. > :15:00.sort of charity that they are operating? And that the Board of

:15:01. > :15:05.Trustees should be regularly refreshed? With Kids Company, the

:15:06. > :15:11.chairman had been in that role for many years. I would suggest that led

:15:12. > :15:13.him to become far too close to the Chief Executive and to be dominated

:15:14. > :15:24.by her. I am grateful for the question and

:15:25. > :15:30.to all members of the body who were so fully engaged with this enquiry.

:15:31. > :15:35.They made whole report so much more valuable. He is right about the

:15:36. > :15:40.appropriate skills that trustee bodies need to have. Very often,

:15:41. > :15:46.people think, they need business skills come whatever they are. Or

:15:47. > :15:51.they need accounting skills, or some kind of technical skills. They need

:15:52. > :15:55.other skills, in the sector with which the charity is operating.

:15:56. > :16:01.There was nobody with psychotherapy experience, this is a

:16:02. > :16:10.psychotherapeutic charity, or with youth sector experience. They also

:16:11. > :16:14.need people who are able to hold the right kind of conversations, who are

:16:15. > :16:23.fearless about hearing what needs to be heard, who are capable of

:16:24. > :16:26.confronting people if necessary, but with kindness and understanding, so

:16:27. > :16:34.that truth gets into the Charity commission -- trustees and the

:16:35. > :16:38.messages are heard. This charity prided itself on being open and

:16:39. > :16:44.consensual, but the evidence is it was precisely the opposite, a lot of

:16:45. > :16:46.people were fearful of people wanting to suppress the truth,

:16:47. > :16:51.because the truth was so difficult to deal with. It was tickled for

:16:52. > :16:55.individuals to deal with. If there is not truth, there will be no

:16:56. > :17:00.enlightenment or judgment. There is no substitute for trustees

:17:01. > :17:09.exercising broad and enlightened common sense and judgment it is not

:17:10. > :17:15.just about sets of skills. We need to hold the answer is a bit shorter.

:17:16. > :17:19.I pay tribute to the chairman of the committee, it was a harrowing

:17:20. > :17:24.experience for all of us, and he handled it so well, in a difficult

:17:25. > :17:30.situation. I ask him to comment a bit further on the role of

:17:31. > :17:34.journalists and media in this enquiry, because is it not a fact

:17:35. > :17:40.that, without the incredibly detailed work done by somebody like

:17:41. > :17:46.the spectator to publish when nobody else was prepared to do it, and that

:17:47. > :17:50.journalist had to go round all of the media who did not want to know,

:17:51. > :17:56.because of some of the issues that my honourable friend has referred

:17:57. > :18:03.to, does he not think that this is even more important now, the role of

:18:04. > :18:13.the media and the role of Freedom of Information? I agree with everything

:18:14. > :18:20.she says. There were journalists who tried to get things published but

:18:21. > :18:26.the editors, the publications who might have carried these messages,

:18:27. > :18:30.they were also scared of confronting what appeared to be a very powerful

:18:31. > :18:35.charity with very great influence to the heart of Government. There is a

:18:36. > :18:40.message there. There is a message for the Charity commission. Why

:18:41. > :18:45.didn't those journalists... Even when things were published, why were

:18:46. > :18:50.they not invited into the question, tell us what you think is going on?

:18:51. > :18:55.I hope journalists will feel a sense of obligation not to necessarily

:18:56. > :18:59.reveal their sources or anything like that, but where they think a

:19:00. > :19:03.big charity is in serious trouble, they should go to the Charity

:19:04. > :19:07.commission and offer their advice. It would be a public spirited thing

:19:08. > :19:12.to do. They would do it for something in respect of a serious

:19:13. > :19:16.risk to national security, they should do it for the security of the

:19:17. > :19:23.charitable sector as well. I agree with my honourable colleague in

:19:24. > :19:26.paying tribute to our chairman, who let this enquiry, and also to the

:19:27. > :19:30.staff of the select committee, who did some valuable work in the course

:19:31. > :19:37.of the enquiry. The last charge of Government money of ?3 million was

:19:38. > :19:42.given a sickly to facilitate restructuring, but there was a

:19:43. > :19:46.programme that Ed on BBC One last night which I was surprised to see,

:19:47. > :19:49.because I was given the impression by that programme that the

:19:50. > :19:55.management and Chief Executive had other ideas as to how that money was

:19:56. > :20:00.going to be spent. I wonder if I could ask if we know whether the 2

:20:01. > :20:04.million balance of the spent ?3 million that was given has been

:20:05. > :20:08.recovered by Government at all, and whether there are going to be any

:20:09. > :20:14.further investigations into this money passing to Kids Company,

:20:15. > :20:15.virtually 24 hours before it shut down, or whether the report is the

:20:16. > :20:26.end of the matter? That's I think that last question is

:20:27. > :20:33.a very interesting one. There is an investigation going on, conducted by

:20:34. > :20:37.the official receiver. The receiver should be able to tell us what

:20:38. > :20:42.happened to that money and if any money is due to be returned to the

:20:43. > :20:46.Government. I'm afraid I'm not a legal expert but I think once the

:20:47. > :20:51.Government handed over the money, it belonged to the charity, it no

:20:52. > :20:54.belong -- it no longer belonged to the Government, and whilst the

:20:55. > :20:59.Government may be a creditor, I think it would have before make you

:21:00. > :21:02.behind others and the Government might have do except that the

:21:03. > :21:09.employees who lost their implement very abruptly are entitled to some

:21:10. > :21:13.form of recompense, perhaps out of those funds. The answer is, I don't

:21:14. > :21:20.know. What was evident from that programme last night was how the

:21:21. > :21:25.restructuring was being resisted to the very end and I'm not sure if

:21:26. > :21:29.that was acknowledged by the minister who signed the letter of

:21:30. > :21:33.direction. I would also like to pay tribute to the staff of the

:21:34. > :21:38.committee. They don't usually like their name up in lights and it is

:21:39. > :21:43.not the tradition of the House but we are very fortunate in our

:21:44. > :21:49.committee. We have very good staff. Having watched the BBC documentary

:21:50. > :21:54.last night and seen the founder of Kids Company love about breaking the

:21:55. > :21:58.law and be dismissive of the money that has handed out so freely by

:21:59. > :22:06.successive governments, it is clear that lessons must be learned. Brash,

:22:07. > :22:14.flamboyant characters who are favoured by six -- by senior

:22:15. > :22:20.politicians must not be associated with those who work with charities

:22:21. > :22:26.with the best of intentions. This report should only be an opening

:22:27. > :22:32.salvo and must be followed up. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman

:22:33. > :22:38.and this is an opening cellphone. This is a question of governance.

:22:39. > :22:42.The question of governance extends beyond charities. It questions how

:22:43. > :23:00.the whole of charities are governed. This is about looking at those who

:23:01. > :23:22.are accountable for what occurs. I commend him and his committee for

:23:23. > :23:28.his report and for his statement to the house today. In pages 47 to 49

:23:29. > :23:33.of the excellent report, he is excoriating in his criticism of the

:23:34. > :23:39.two Government ministers who signed off the ministerial direction in

:23:40. > :23:43.June 2015 to give Kids Company ?3 million against the advice of the

:23:44. > :23:50.permanent secretary of the Cabinet Office. One of those ministers the

:23:51. > :23:53.Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, was good to give evidence

:23:54. > :23:59.and has shown courtesy to the house by being here today. The other, the

:24:00. > :24:02.Paymaster General, does not appear to have given evidence to his

:24:03. > :24:08.committee and is not in the house today. In his report, the chairman

:24:09. > :24:12.rights, in neither his letter of direction nor his oral evidence has

:24:13. > :24:16.missed the lead when provided convincing justification for his and

:24:17. > :24:26.Mr Hancock's decision to ignore the advice of senior officials will This

:24:27. > :24:33.grant should not have been authorised contrary to advice. Can

:24:34. > :24:38.we expect a ministerial apology from both ministers involved and a clear

:24:39. > :24:44.explanation of how the ?2 million that is still missing will be found?

:24:45. > :24:49.I have heard everything that my honourable friend has said and the

:24:50. > :24:54.report speaks for itself. I hope very much that the Government will

:24:55. > :25:01.give a full and clear explanation in response to this report. I have

:25:02. > :25:08.never doubted the integrity of the two ministers that signed that

:25:09. > :25:12.letter of direction. I think we must wait for the Government 's response

:25:13. > :25:20.and in the end, I am not responsible for that response. Can I add the

:25:21. > :25:27.name of Harriet Sergeant who exposed this fraud. This was British

:25:28. > :25:32.journalism at its very best and the report is the select committee at

:25:33. > :25:36.its very best, exposing the waist, the extravagance and delusions of

:25:37. > :25:41.this sad episode which has robbed far better charities of vital funds

:25:42. > :25:46.to help children in distress. Coming from this, isn't it vital that the

:25:47. > :25:52.ministers involved in ignoring this letter of direction are their

:25:53. > :26:03.conduct in a considered way with regards to the Minister for conduct

:26:04. > :26:08.and it is crucial that the buck stops at the Prime Minister for this

:26:09. > :26:17.terrible waste. We should have broken the two blue, I believe,

:26:18. > :26:21.because this charity was linked in every way with the big societies

:26:22. > :26:24.stunt that was being run by the Prime Minister at the time, so the

:26:25. > :26:30.Prime Minister should have given evidence to us. This matter will not

:26:31. > :26:34.be set to rest until the Prime Minister explains why he set up what

:26:35. > :26:43.was virtually a slush fund for getting funds moved into the Cabinet

:26:44. > :26:51.Office in a way that was wrong, damaging to many of the children who

:26:52. > :26:54.were helped by Kids Company, but very, very damaging to those

:26:55. > :27:03.charities who could prove the worth of their actions. Kids Company never

:27:04. > :27:09.did that, never giving statements, never giving evidence, and should we

:27:10. > :27:16.look forward to this never happening again and money is being moved out

:27:17. > :27:22.of the Cabinet Office control as to much it is in the nature of politics

:27:23. > :27:29.that some people will always be ready to try to pin the blame and

:27:30. > :27:35.try to extract some action as a result of pinning the blame. I hope

:27:36. > :27:40.I am conducting this committee in a way that all the members of the

:27:41. > :27:45.committee support, which is that we get so much more from our witnesses

:27:46. > :27:48.and I think our reports have more authority if we are not trying to

:27:49. > :27:54.pin individual blame. The house will have heard what he has said. I think

:27:55. > :27:59.he also touched on a very important issue. Why youth funding was moved

:28:00. > :28:03.from the Department for Education to the Cabinet Office. We did not get

:28:04. > :28:09.an explanation for that, except a denial that it had anything to do

:28:10. > :28:12.with wanting to be able to continue funding Kids Company when the

:28:13. > :28:17.Department for Education had clearly become there are reluctant to

:28:18. > :28:22.continue doing so. -- very reluctant to continue doing so. One of our

:28:23. > :28:27.conclusions is that departments should be responsible for allocating

:28:28. > :28:33.funding to outside bodies, not the Cabinet Office, because the Cabinet

:28:34. > :28:36.Office is just too close to the centre of political power and that

:28:37. > :28:44.creates an impression that decisions are being influenced. The libel

:28:45. > :28:55.fund, for example, is clearly a very worthwhile initiative, but any

:28:56. > :29:02.suggestion that it is a fund under the control of the Chancellor of the

:29:03. > :29:08.Exchequer should be checked. Somewhat tighter answers would be

:29:09. > :29:11.appreciated. These are way too long. Can I thank my honourable friend and

:29:12. > :29:19.the committee for the work they have done. Do they intend to review the

:29:20. > :29:22.extent to which the rag inundation is -- the recommendations they have

:29:23. > :29:28.made in this report will be complied with in the future? We always make

:29:29. > :29:31.sure that our recommendations are followed up and the Government has

:29:32. > :29:38.to give a very clear response to them. Mr Speaker, I commend the

:29:39. > :29:42.honourable gentleman and the committee for this report and I

:29:43. > :29:48.think the focus of governance is vital. For our part, the Public

:29:49. > :29:51.Accounts Committee is clear that the taxpayers money must be followed

:29:52. > :30:01.wherever it goes. In the evidence that we had, there was clearly a

:30:02. > :30:05.reluctance for a call for ministerial direction because of the

:30:06. > :30:15.relationship of the Secretary of State. Has he thought any more about

:30:16. > :30:20.ministerial direction? There has been consequence of the role of

:30:21. > :30:27.ministerial direction. The former Cabinet member responsible for that

:30:28. > :30:32.urged people to ask the ministerial direction in order to facilitate

:30:33. > :30:37.directors being made and it was understandable, as he felt some

:30:38. > :30:42.decisions were being blocked. On the other hand, I think senior civil

:30:43. > :30:45.servants pride themselves on a good relationship of trust with their

:30:46. > :30:48.ministers and are therefore reluctant to reach for the

:30:49. > :30:52.requirement of full direction. They would rather have a relationship

:30:53. > :31:01.with their directors which is based upon a proper shared understanding

:31:02. > :31:07.of what the issues of the situation are. I side with the civil servants

:31:08. > :31:14.on that, I think. It would be impossible for civil servants to

:31:15. > :31:25.give their advice to ministers if it went too far the other way. Can I

:31:26. > :31:30.apologise to the House for only just arriving here. I have been speaking

:31:31. > :31:36.to the group of schoolchildren from my constituency and I could not make

:31:37. > :31:42.that -- miss that. I would like to thank the chair for getting a good

:31:43. > :31:49.job done on this report. I caught the tail end of what my honourable

:31:50. > :31:53.friend was saying and I would sympathise with a lot of what he was

:31:54. > :32:00.saying and my honourable friend, the chair of the Public Accounts

:32:01. > :32:05.Committee, I agree that the NA oh should have a look at this when

:32:06. > :32:08.funding is being given in this way and I hope this kind of thing will

:32:09. > :32:15.not ever happen again and that this report will go some way to mending

:32:16. > :32:19.fences for the future. That being said, I think this is possibly the

:32:20. > :32:24.tip of an iceberg. I think this story will continue and there is

:32:25. > :32:30.probably a lot more we have not reported on. I wanted to say my few

:32:31. > :32:34.words. Thank you, Mr Chairman. I'm sure the House will agree that the

:32:35. > :32:39.chamber's loss was the schoolchildren's game. Thank you, Mr

:32:40. > :32:46.Speaker. I am grateful for his support on the work of the committee

:32:47. > :32:53.I will pick up that he says this must never happen again. I can say

:32:54. > :32:58.for sure that it will happen again. The question is, do we have a system

:32:59. > :33:03.in place that can learn each time it happens and rectify and prepare for

:33:04. > :33:10.the future, ensuring it happens less and less often. That is what our

:33:11. > :33:16.recommendations are about. Can I congratulate the honourable member

:33:17. > :33:21.and his committee but bringing this forward. What role should the Care

:33:22. > :33:26.Quality Commission have played in inspecting some of the services that

:33:27. > :33:33.Kids Company claimed to have been providing? There seemed to be a gap

:33:34. > :33:36.that they could have shown that the numbers did not add up. Can I

:33:37. > :33:40.congratulate them and of Southwark Council who stepped up to ensure

:33:41. > :33:51.that vulnerable young people received help quickly after Kids

:33:52. > :34:01.Company collapsed. There is still some discussion to be had about what

:34:02. > :34:06.gaps in provision really do exist and I am grateful to that gentleman.

:34:07. > :34:11.On the question he raises about inspection, this is an important

:34:12. > :34:16.matter. Ofsted did go into parts of Kids Company. I don't think the

:34:17. > :34:21.executives of the charity found that very welcome. If social services are

:34:22. > :34:28.going to be inspected, maybe there is a case for inspecting charities

:34:29. > :34:32.of this nature, particularly if they are in receipt of public funds and

:34:33. > :34:38.they have safeguarding responsibilities. Charity should be

:34:39. > :34:43.treated in the same way as social services and boarding schools.

:34:44. > :34:49.Notwithstanding what I said earlier about the slow progress, the

:34:50. > :34:51.honourable gentleman has received and he warmly deserves the

:34:52. > :34:59.appreciation of the hassle bringing on behalf of committee this Berry

:35:00. > :35:01.important report for us. It is a practical expression of the

:35:02. > :35:07.honourable gentleman's decades long commitment to this House, its

:35:08. > :35:17.centrality to the Government. We now come to the backbench motion

:35:18. > :35:25.on Parliamentary Southern tree and EU renegotiations. -- sovereignty.

:35:26. > :35:33.To move the motion, I call Mr John Baron. Mr Speaker, you have been

:35:34. > :35:38.very generous. I beg to move the motion in my name and other members,

:35:39. > :35:42.and I thank the back edge business committee for granting the debate

:35:43. > :35:47.and those on both sides of the House who have supported the application

:35:48. > :35:53.-- I thank the backbench business committee. There is adding more

:35:54. > :35:56.important to defend down the country's sovereignty, it goes to

:35:57. > :36:02.the heart of everything we do. Without it, we cannot truly have the

:36:03. > :36:07.final say on a host of issues, including the primacy of our laws,

:36:08. > :36:14.the integrity of our borders or the extent of burdensome regulation. As

:36:15. > :36:17.the re-negations proceed, it appears that little effort is being made to

:36:18. > :36:22.truly restore Parliamentary sovereignty -- renegotiations. It is

:36:23. > :36:27.not a priority and I think this is a great opportunity missed. We have a

:36:28. > :36:30.golden opportunity to pitch for fundamental change in our

:36:31. > :36:36.relationship with the EU as the prime Minster promised in his

:36:37. > :36:45.speech. For the benefit of both. -- Prime Minister. Number ten is

:36:46. > :36:47.tinkering at the edges, without consulting his Parliamentary party,

:36:48. > :36:52.the Prime Minister is sidestepping the issue by arguing for temporary

:36:53. > :36:55.measures, measures which require us to club together with other

:36:56. > :37:02.parliaments in the vain hope of stopping the EU. This is not

:37:03. > :37:08.restoring Parliamentary sovereignty. If we as a parliament and country on

:37:09. > :37:13.our own cannot stop any unwanted EU taxes or directives or laws, it is

:37:14. > :37:18.clear that if we vote to stay we vote to stay on the conveyor belt

:37:19. > :37:22.towards ever closer union is laid out in the founding Treaty of the

:37:23. > :37:31.EU. Parliament will become nothing more than just a chamber of Europe.

:37:32. > :37:36.Council chamber. To those who said that the UK already accept is a

:37:37. > :37:40.certain pooling or loss of sovereignty when joining other

:37:41. > :37:45.international organisations, I say only the EU can force us to take

:37:46. > :37:50.economic migrants despite the strain on our infrastructure and can

:37:51. > :37:53.override our laws, and voiced burdensome regulation on our

:37:54. > :38:01.companies, despite the vast majority are not even trading with the EU. --

:38:02. > :38:07.forest. By all means. I would like to congratulate you on raising this

:38:08. > :38:11.very important issue. The great 19th-century constitutionalists

:38:12. > :38:14.divided politics into the effective part of the Constitution and the

:38:15. > :38:20.decorative parts, and this place must be the effective part and not

:38:21. > :38:26.just the decoration will stop I completely agree. That is why the

:38:27. > :38:30.issue of sovereignty goes to the very core of our relationship with

:38:31. > :38:38.the EU and if we don't take this opportunity to address it now, it

:38:39. > :38:42.could be lost for a generation. I wonder if all those years ago, in

:38:43. > :38:47.power was right, and we have been dodging this issue ever since --

:38:48. > :38:55.Enoch Powell. The question posed by him was this, if you join the EU,

:38:56. > :38:58.this chamber and this House loses its sovereignty, and now an historic

:38:59. > :39:01.moment is approaching and the British people have to make that

:39:02. > :39:10.choice, will they be claimed that sovereignty or not? -- reclaim. I

:39:11. > :39:15.can only repeat what I said to my colleague on the opposite benches, I

:39:16. > :39:18.completely agree, and I do regret that there has been a lack of

:39:19. > :39:23.consultation with regards to the proposals in this renegotiation and

:39:24. > :39:28.betting games went with the Parliamentary party, perhaps with

:39:29. > :39:34.Parliament generally, given we are representatives of would have been

:39:35. > :39:40.very useful indeed -- and with the Parliamentary party. And the failure

:39:41. > :39:46.to consult with the national governments of Wales, Scotland and

:39:47. > :39:49.Northern Ireland? I regret wide consultation generally with regards

:39:50. > :39:53.the renegotiation, when many of us were campaigning at the last

:39:54. > :39:57.parliament for a referendum in this, it was in the hope that we would

:39:58. > :40:01.have a meaningful debate prior to the renegotiation and then a

:40:02. > :40:05.meaningful debate afterwards, as we headed to a referendum. I'm just

:40:06. > :40:08.going to make a bit more progress and then I will take further

:40:09. > :40:14.interventions. Unconscious of time, as well. And now to the so-called

:40:15. > :40:18.red card, we appear to have a system which has more holes in it than a

:40:19. > :40:23.Swiss cheese. It is more like a lottery ticket that has been through

:40:24. > :40:29.the wash, the question is, is it valid? The idea is that we clubbed

:40:30. > :40:35.together and form a majority with other national parliaments to stop

:40:36. > :40:41.unwanted EU taxes and laws but this would not enable our Parliament to

:40:42. > :40:45.reject anything it did not want. This would be an extension of the

:40:46. > :40:50.ineffectual yellow card system currently in operation, but with an

:40:51. > :40:54.even higher threshold. We should be clear, as the Lord Haig once put it

:40:55. > :40:59.in this chamber when referring to the system that was in operation

:41:00. > :41:05.then, very similar to what is being proposed now, he said, given the

:41:06. > :41:09.difficulty of opposition winning a vote in their Parliament, the odds

:41:10. > :41:13.against doing so in 14 countries around Europe with different

:41:14. > :41:17.Parliamentary recesses lasting up to ten weeks on our own case such that

:41:18. > :41:20.even if the European Commission proposed the slaughter of the first

:41:21. > :41:25.four it would be difficult to achieve such remarkable conjunction

:41:26. > :41:31.of Parliamentary voices in such a short period of time. The lottery

:41:32. > :41:37.ticket system will not work, it will be like a football referee getting

:41:38. > :41:40.out his fraction of a red card, to have two then consult with 14 other

:41:41. > :41:47.officials before deciding what to do. By which time the game is over.

:41:48. > :41:51.If we are really serious about regaining control of our borders and

:41:52. > :41:57.fisheries, the ability to set our own trade deals and the power to set

:41:58. > :42:06.our own business regulation, then Southern Chi -- sovereignty must be

:42:07. > :42:11.restored. Everything else is a sell-out or a fraud. We should be

:42:12. > :42:17.clear that the washed out lottery ticket. Sorry to stop you in the

:42:18. > :42:22.midst of that wonderful metaphor, but can I put it to him that one of

:42:23. > :42:28.the real problems with the mentality of those who subscribe to the EU

:42:29. > :42:41.project is that instead of being honest enough to say that -- to say

:42:42. > :42:48.no to people who would like to stay at, they say things which fudge the

:42:49. > :42:53.issue. I agree, but the Minister on the front bench is nothing but a

:42:54. > :42:58.purchase and very able minister and I'm delighted he is in his place. I

:42:59. > :43:02.would not want him to be under the illusion is that we are suggesting

:43:03. > :43:07.this is of him, but there is a tendency of acting out this Sherrard

:43:08. > :43:20.when actually we have been on the conveyor belt of ever closer union

:43:21. > :43:24.-- charade. By all means. In this document, which was published this

:43:25. > :43:30.week, the draft decision, there is a section called sovereignty but if

:43:31. > :43:35.there was ever a misnamed section of a document, it is this. The one

:43:36. > :43:40.thing this does not return to the United Kingdom Parliament is

:43:41. > :43:44.sovereignty over the laws which are made for this country, and it

:43:45. > :43:48.promises a red card which is no more than another extremely cumbersome

:43:49. > :43:54.method of qualified majority voting in the European Union. I cannot but

:43:55. > :44:03.agree with by right honourable friend. Anyone want to disagree?

:44:04. > :44:09.There will be people, don't worry. Can I turn, if I make it to the

:44:10. > :44:14.immigration emergency brake. I speak with sadness, because I think the

:44:15. > :44:18.government has framed this part of the debate in the wrong way. Let's

:44:19. > :44:25.be clear, the emergency brake accessed in work benefits will only

:44:26. > :44:29.last four years and with the EU not Britain judging whether the

:44:30. > :44:35.emergency brake is declared. Not even here do we have control. It is

:44:36. > :44:40.also not clear after what happens after the period expires, benefits

:44:41. > :44:48.will be increased, so it is moot how much of a deterrent the break will

:44:49. > :44:51.be, but my sadness is that I believe the government is wrong to catch the

:44:52. > :44:57.debate in these terms because it feeds into a negative narrative

:44:58. > :45:02.about immigrants. It ignores the fact that almost all of the vast

:45:03. > :45:08.majority of immigrants from the EU, they come to Britain to work hard.

:45:09. > :45:14.They are not looking to benefits. It ignores the fact that large-scale EU

:45:15. > :45:17.immigration cannot be stopped in all truthfulness while we adhere to the

:45:18. > :45:24.founding principle of freedom of movement. Especially because the

:45:25. > :45:28.rise in the living wage will pick that up in speed. I'm fed up of

:45:29. > :45:33.listening to politicians saying that we keep focusing on benefits and

:45:34. > :45:38.playing to the gallery in many respects, because it is wrong to do

:45:39. > :45:42.so. It feeds a negative narrative, the vast majority of immigrants,

:45:43. > :45:50.let's be clear, they come here to work hard. We should acknowledge

:45:51. > :45:53.that fact. Let's have clarity about the emergency brake, which after all

:45:54. > :46:03.can only be used by the EU back-seat driver. As we all know, we know how

:46:04. > :46:09.dangerous that can be. Mr Speaker, let's address these banks and make

:46:10. > :46:13.clear that the government's renegotiation has massive holes in

:46:14. > :46:18.these key planks -- address these planks. But some people this will

:46:19. > :46:23.not be important, but I say it is important. Because while the general

:46:24. > :46:28.view might be that we are standing still while inside the EU, we are in

:46:29. > :46:34.fact standing still on the conveyor belt towards ever closer union.

:46:35. > :46:38.Let's be clear about that. The lessons of the Eurozone crisis is

:46:39. > :46:42.that the EU usually finds a way of achieving what it wants, ever closer

:46:43. > :46:51.union, even at the expense of violating its commitments. As

:46:52. > :46:55.Jean-Claude Juncker said, when it becomes serious, you have two lie.

:46:56. > :47:01.These are the words of the president. The president of the

:47:02. > :47:05.European Commission. The EU is developing all the trappings of a

:47:06. > :47:12.nation state, a currency, a body of law, a diplomatic service, and it

:47:13. > :47:17.makes no secret of its ambitions or its determination to succeed even if

:47:18. > :47:24.this results in the Democratic deficit with its own people. You

:47:25. > :47:29.only have two here what has been said by some of the key people

:47:30. > :47:35.within the EU. Jean-Claude Juncker has made his position very clear,

:47:36. > :47:43."If it is a yes, we say, on we go, and if it is a no, we say, we will

:47:44. > :47:49.continue". Angela Merkel has made clear her wishes. " We want more

:47:50. > :47:54.Europe and stronger powers to intervene". Martin Schultz, the

:47:55. > :48:04.president of the European Parliament has been a very blunt, "The UK

:48:05. > :48:07.belongs to the EU". The former president of the commission has cast

:48:08. > :48:16.light on to the EU's integration process. "They Must go on voting

:48:17. > :48:21.until they get it right" for stop if things do not change, the UK is

:48:22. > :48:26.going to be captive on a journey to who knows where. Looking into voting

:48:27. > :48:29.at the EU Council of ministers, academics based at the London School

:48:30. > :48:32.of economics, and there has been little research about this, so this

:48:33. > :48:37.is interesting, but these academics had shown that in recent years

:48:38. > :48:43.Britain has voted against the majority, far more often, and being

:48:44. > :48:48.on the losing side more than any other member state. It is not as if

:48:49. > :48:52.it is getting better within the internal structures of the EU. The

:48:53. > :48:56.British people never signed up to this, it is therefore right that

:48:57. > :49:02.they are their final say. In the referendum. Does the British

:49:03. > :49:07.government truly believe it can muster sufficient votes to stop this

:49:08. > :49:12.inexorable vote towards ever closer union? That is one of the key

:49:13. > :49:21.questions in such a try and answer today. Very briefly, yes. -- should

:49:22. > :49:26.try. He mentioned many well-known people in the European Union, isn't

:49:27. > :49:32.one of the things that binds them altogether in relation to this

:49:33. > :49:36.debate, they are not elected, and in this parliament we had no say in who

:49:37. > :49:45.these people are and that we can't get rid of them, and as Tony Benn

:49:46. > :49:47.said, if you can't get rid of the people that are in an institution,

:49:48. > :49:58.that it is not democratic. I very much agree with the

:49:59. > :50:02.honourable lady. I think there is a democratic deficit within the EU. I

:50:03. > :50:07.think it is no coincidence that the European Parliament now, after the

:50:08. > :50:12.last elections, is probably the most Eurosceptic parliament in the EU's

:50:13. > :50:19.history. I think the EU needs to recognise that they need to put this

:50:20. > :50:26.democratic deficit absolutely right. Would my honourable friend agree

:50:27. > :50:30.that even the elected people such as Daniel... You can't get rid of him

:50:31. > :50:36.because he is number one of ten or 11 in the Houses of Parliament? I

:50:37. > :50:40.think there are many flaws with the system and I think that the peoples

:50:41. > :50:44.of Europe, I'm not going to generalise too much in this respect,

:50:45. > :50:48.I think they are asking more and more questions, particularly as the

:50:49. > :50:52.system, the EU, is failing to deliver, particularly on the

:50:53. > :50:56.economic front. Mass unemployment, for example, is causing great

:50:57. > :51:03.hardship in many countries. The EU is failing to deliver. I think I've

:51:04. > :51:08.allowed the gentleman to intervene once already. No? In that case I

:51:09. > :51:12.give way. Would he accept that this is not just an academic debate about

:51:13. > :51:18.sovereignty but this is a nation that goes -- an issue that goes to

:51:19. > :51:23.the very core of social cohesion. If people feel they cannot change those

:51:24. > :51:28.who make decisions then we have all kinds of trouble and tensions on our

:51:29. > :51:31.streets, and that is the core of this issue. Democratic institutions

:51:32. > :51:40.are important for the well-being of society. I agree, very well put. It

:51:41. > :51:42.is terribly important there is an element of democratic

:51:43. > :51:46.accountability, because if not you will alienate sections of society

:51:47. > :51:49.and you will have issues such as unemployment not being properly

:51:50. > :51:52.addressed. How are those people going to voice their opinions

:51:53. > :51:57.without moving to the extremes of the political divide and feed that

:51:58. > :52:00.extremism come because they don't feel they can be democratically

:52:01. > :52:06.represented within the existing structures? One more time. With my

:52:07. > :52:10.honourable friend agree there is a practical sides of the issues of

:52:11. > :52:15.sovereignty as well, because as member of the EU, we have lost our

:52:16. > :52:20.sovereign ability to negotiate friendly or free trade agreements

:52:21. > :52:24.with the major economies around the world. It would be in this country's

:52:25. > :52:28.interest to have friendly trading agreements with the big economies

:52:29. > :52:33.like America, China, Japan, but we can't do that because we have lost

:52:34. > :52:38.our seat at the World Trade Organisation and our membership of

:52:39. > :52:41.the EU forbids us from making such negotiations. I think that's

:52:42. > :52:45.absolutely right and it is a question of sovereignty at the end

:52:46. > :52:50.of the day. If we can't take our seat at the World Trade Organisation

:52:51. > :52:53.and negotiate our deals... I'm conscious time is ticking on so I

:52:54. > :53:01.will make some progress if colleagues will forgive me. Please.

:53:02. > :53:04.In my view, the Prime Minister misses the importance of

:53:05. > :53:08.parliamentary sovereignty in the EU debate. I think this is a debate

:53:09. > :53:14.that -- a mistake that number ten is in danger of making, because I

:53:15. > :53:18.suggest it is focusing too heavily on project via issues such as

:53:19. > :53:22.immigration and jobs, but we all know it is the loss of parliamentary

:53:23. > :53:26.sovereignty which lies at the heart of our uneasy relationship with the

:53:27. > :53:31.EU and which has rankled since we first joined in the 1970s. Over the

:53:32. > :53:38.course of the referendum campaign I do not believe project fear will

:53:39. > :53:48.bite. Many businesses make clear they will not pull out in the event

:53:49. > :53:52.of a Brexit. Indeed one report suggested that a Brexit would be

:53:53. > :53:59.beneficial to the UK. Given the vast trade deficit is in the EU's favour,

:54:00. > :54:05.they would want to sign an agreement at the end of a Brexit. Even if the

:54:06. > :54:09.Brexit wanted to get awkward, they couldn't. Falling global tariffs

:54:10. > :54:18.since the 1970s mean that both the UK and the EU are bound by those

:54:19. > :54:25.tariffs, the USA's being under 3%. Many countries, smaller countries

:54:26. > :54:31.outside the EU that easily trade with it, does the in camp really

:54:32. > :54:34.believe that we would not be able to do likewise? What does excite

:54:35. > :54:42.voters's imagination is the ability to restore sovereignty to our

:54:43. > :54:44.Parliament. I rather suspect the Prime Minister knows this and he

:54:45. > :54:48.consequently is holding something in reserve when it comes to the

:54:49. > :54:55.sovereignty issue. We are hearing something about a sovereignty bill.

:54:56. > :55:02.Details ask and but if true, does it not acknowledge that the washed out

:55:03. > :55:06.lottery ticket and the EU back-seat driver are not fit for purpose? Will

:55:07. > :55:11.the Minister supply the house today with more details? In conclusion, Mr

:55:12. > :55:16.Speaker, there has never been a better time to renegotiate our

:55:17. > :55:21.relationship with the EU. Nor are we ever more likely to be in a stronger

:55:22. > :55:25.position to win meaningful concessions. So I urge the Prime

:55:26. > :55:33.Minister at this critical stage to return to the negotiations that week

:55:34. > :55:37.nothing less than a true getting back of parliamentary sovereignty.

:55:38. > :55:42.If the EU did not exist today, would we really invent it? What I cannot

:55:43. > :55:45.understand is why this and other governments have acquiesced in this

:55:46. > :55:50.Gerard Tubb. I can only surmise because it is easier not to correct

:55:51. > :55:56.it and to do nothing than to put it right and put in action. In action

:55:57. > :56:01.is costing this country dear, not just tenderly pounds by way of a net

:56:02. > :56:05.contribution a year, but by way of our sovereignty and responsibility

:56:06. > :56:11.to the people of this country. Order. The question is as on the

:56:12. > :56:13.order paper. On account of the number of honourable members who

:56:14. > :56:17.wish to contribute to this debate, I'm afraid it will be necessary for

:56:18. > :56:29.me to start with a six minute limit on backbench speeches. Mr Hopkins.

:56:30. > :56:32.Thank you, Mr Speaker. I'm very grateful for the opportunity to

:56:33. > :56:36.speak in this debate. It is a very important debate and I congratulate

:56:37. > :56:39.the last honourable member for his excellent speech. I want to address

:56:40. > :56:45.some of my colleagues on this side of the house who remain in favour of

:56:46. > :56:52.staying in the EU, because I think they are mistaken. I want to make a

:56:53. > :57:00.few points in that regard. The honourable member talked about no,

:57:01. > :57:05.but we have a number of opt outs which have saved as some of the pain

:57:06. > :57:08.of being a member of the European Union and I think those are very

:57:09. > :57:13.good, particularly those on the euro. And we been a member of the

:57:14. > :57:18.euro, we would have been destroyed by the crisis in 2008. He protected

:57:19. > :57:22.our economy to an extent from that terrible experience. Other countries

:57:23. > :57:28.in southern Europe had much greater difficulties and they are still

:57:29. > :57:34.suffering now. Currency frights ability -- currency flexibility, so

:57:35. > :57:36.that countries can adapt to appropriate parities with other

:57:37. > :57:40.countries is absolutely fundamental to having a successful world economy

:57:41. > :57:47.let alone a national or European economy. The question of the single

:57:48. > :57:50.currency, does he not agree with me that one of the more ridiculous

:57:51. > :57:54.parts of this document published yesterday as the idea that we need

:57:55. > :57:58.to have permission from the European Union in order for them to recognise

:57:59. > :58:02.that we have more than one currency in the European Union? Given that

:58:03. > :58:08.Sweden voted in a referendum to stay out of the euro successfully and at

:58:09. > :58:12.the time they didn't even have an opt out as negotiated in the

:58:13. > :58:15.Maastricht Treaty for the United Kingdom, isn't it clear that if you

:58:16. > :58:20.have got your own currency they can't take it away and we don't need

:58:21. > :58:26.a treaty change or anything to tell us... Absolutely. I've had the

:58:27. > :58:30.pleasure of being a member of the European scrutiny committee for many

:58:31. > :58:33.years now and that represents comments from other parliaments and

:58:34. > :58:39.Swedish parliament representatives tell me that the support for joining

:58:40. > :58:46.the euro is now at 11% in Sweden so I suspect they will not be joining

:58:47. > :58:51.any time soon. We have also heard from Czechs and as soon as you

:58:52. > :58:55.suggest that they might be joining the euro, they say basically never

:58:56. > :58:59.is that feeling. One or two other countries joined the euro and maybe

:59:00. > :59:02.think it's not such a good idea now and they might like to withdraw if

:59:03. > :59:07.they could. But the fact that we are saying that there are many several

:59:08. > :59:11.currencies in the European Union is absolutely the truth, there are

:59:12. > :59:15.several countries which retain their own currency. Some years ago I met

:59:16. > :59:19.some Polish representatives and I said whatever you do, don't join the

:59:20. > :59:26.euro. If you want to run your economy successfully, it will not be

:59:27. > :59:30.good for Poland. Not that my advice mattered, but nevertheless they have

:59:31. > :59:34.not joined the euro. I see no prospect of them doing that in the

:59:35. > :59:39.near future. I wanted to talk about other opt outs. One of the issues

:59:40. > :59:42.I've campaigned about in this house for some time is about the Common

:59:43. > :59:47.fisheries policy which I think is absolutely bizarre and a complete

:59:48. > :59:52.nonsense, to have thousands if not millions of tonnes of fish just

:59:53. > :59:56.destroyed by dumping them back in the sea went dead, and of course

:59:57. > :00:01.fish stocks being savagely cut. The only way forward is for countries to

:00:02. > :00:05.be responsible for their own fish stocks so that they will then

:00:06. > :00:08.husband their own resources and fish in their own seas and manage all the

:00:09. > :00:15.fishing that takes place in their own seas, like the Norwegians do,

:00:16. > :00:18.which is much better. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The member makes a very

:00:19. > :00:22.important point. Does he agree with me that it's a real pity that the

:00:23. > :00:25.Government has missed the opportunity of treaty change around

:00:26. > :00:28.the common fisheries policy, which has been an absolute disaster for

:00:29. > :00:35.the Scottish fishing community? Indeed. I thank him for his

:00:36. > :00:39.intervention. I was going to go on that I have raised this with a

:00:40. > :00:43.former representative who came to speak to us at the European scrutiny

:00:44. > :00:47.committee a couple of years ago and I said if we gave notice, I

:00:48. > :00:50.suggested this to the previous Coalition Government, I said if we

:00:51. > :00:59.gave notice that in say five years' time we wanted to withdraw from the

:01:00. > :01:03.common fisheries policy and keep the 250 mile limit and start to manage

:01:04. > :01:08.fish stocks properly, basically for our own fishing industry, with every

:01:09. > :01:12.boat and every catch on its own, as happens in Norway, if we gave notice

:01:13. > :01:18.we wanted to withdraw from the common filler -- common fisheries

:01:19. > :01:24.policy, what would happen? He said he would be expelled from the

:01:25. > :01:27.European Union straightaway. If the Government put this into their

:01:28. > :01:30.negotiations there might be a bit more persuasive, I think. I've got a

:01:31. > :01:36.list of things that I would want in my negotiations, not being followed

:01:37. > :01:43.by the Government, but the common fisheries policy getting rid of is

:01:44. > :01:46.one of them. We have the most successful fishing industry in the

:01:47. > :01:48.whole of the European Union and it has been devastated by overfishing

:01:49. > :01:57.and since then the appalling throwing away by catches. That is

:01:58. > :02:02.just to make a point that getting real change, we would be thrown out,

:02:03. > :02:06.apparently. So the substantial changes that I want to see would not

:02:07. > :02:09.be acceptable. Yesterday people were talking about the common

:02:10. > :02:14.agricultural policy, another nonsensical policy that has cost us

:02:15. > :02:17.dear. We make massive net contributions to the European Union

:02:18. > :02:21.simply because of the common agricultural policy. I think every

:02:22. > :02:25.country ought to be able to manage its own agriculture. Some choose to

:02:26. > :02:30.subsidise agriculture like the Norwegians for their own strategic

:02:31. > :02:36.reasons and I think that's perfectly acceptable and we could choose the

:02:37. > :02:41.same. Each country could do their own. One of the nonsenses of the

:02:42. > :02:45.common agricultural policy is that some countries have been paid not to

:02:46. > :02:49.grow food. I was in Lithuania a couple of years ago with the

:02:50. > :02:54.honourable member, the chair of the European scrutiny committee, and he

:02:55. > :02:59.remembered that Lithuania used to be self-sufficient in food. Now there

:03:00. > :03:04.are thousands of acres of Lithuania being laid Fallow because they are

:03:05. > :03:09.being paid not to grow food. I think that's nonsense and it's all to do

:03:10. > :03:13.with the common agricultural policy. He is making a very important point

:03:14. > :03:18.because in Northern Ireland one of the issues is, if we were to leave

:03:19. > :03:27.the EU, what would happen to farming subsidies? Farming subsidies are

:03:28. > :03:30.better tailored to the individual needs of individual countries rather

:03:31. > :03:34.than a common policy, which very often fails to meet the needs of

:03:35. > :03:41.farmers in our country. He's absolutely right and I agree with

:03:42. > :03:45.him. Of course, by withdrawing we could keep all the subsidies as they

:03:46. > :03:51.are and still benefit by the net loss of some say 19 billion and some

:03:52. > :03:57.say 14 billion, but it is in the many billions. We could eliminate

:03:58. > :04:01.the net loss and still subsidise regional policy and all sorts of

:04:02. > :04:06.other policies as well. What we do then is tailored to our own national

:04:07. > :04:12.and regional needs and the nations of the United Kingdom as well. One

:04:13. > :04:16.thing I wanted to come onto was the so-called sham of social Europe,

:04:17. > :04:20.which I believe is a complete sham. It is used as a lever to persuade

:04:21. > :04:23.social Democratic and socialist parties to say yes to the European

:04:24. > :04:28.Union but when it comes to the crunch, this will not necessarily

:04:29. > :04:33.impress members on the other side but this site is I hope, they always

:04:34. > :04:38.find in favour of employers. Free movement is about bidding down wages

:04:39. > :04:43.and making sure that wages are kept down and profits archetype. It's

:04:44. > :04:47.part of the neoliberal package of measures that is being driven by the

:04:48. > :04:53.European Union. When it comes to a crunch like Greece and some of the

:04:54. > :04:57.other European countries which have had bailouts, one of the conditions

:04:58. > :05:05.of bailouts is to have a break on collected by the. They say you've

:05:06. > :05:09.got to cut down your employees especially in the public sector

:05:10. > :05:13.because they want to cut down on relative bargaining. That's hardly

:05:14. > :05:18.social Europe. What about the rights involved in the Charter of

:05:19. > :05:24.fundamental rights? And of course then we have the conditions of

:05:25. > :05:25.bailouts, forced privatisations. Via sales of public assets in these

:05:26. > :05:38.countries. The biggest problem has been mass

:05:39. > :05:43.output and falling living standards, output and falling living standards,

:05:44. > :05:48.Greece is the most extreme example, but other countries have suffered.

:05:49. > :05:55.Greece has a living standards cut by 25% and unemployment at 25% and 50%

:05:56. > :06:00.across showing people in southern Europe. It is a nonsense, it is not

:06:01. > :06:08.work economically and the idea that it is beneficial to workers is

:06:09. > :06:21.nonsense and not true. Of course. Would he agree that predominantly

:06:22. > :06:27.because of what you are saying... The time is up. Very courteous, much

:06:28. > :06:34.more than I needed, but do you want to finish blurting out what you

:06:35. > :06:37.wanted to say? Isn't this way the trade union movement and trade

:06:38. > :06:40.unionism across the country are catching on to this and speaking out

:06:41. > :06:48.and beginning to join and get involved in the campaign to leave?

:06:49. > :06:58.Excellent. A one word sentence, magnificent. Thank you. Sir William

:06:59. > :07:04.Cash. I congratulate my honourable friend for introducing this debate.

:07:05. > :07:11.I have to say this has been a very long journey. 30 years in all. I

:07:12. > :07:15.don't want to speak about the technicalities and the negotiation,

:07:16. > :07:19.we will deal with that when the Foreign Secretary appears in front

:07:20. > :07:27.of the European scrutiny committee on the 10th of February. I would

:07:28. > :07:30.much rather say a few words, and I said a few words yesterday in reply

:07:31. > :07:34.to the Prime Minister, and what I want to do is simply to indicate

:07:35. > :07:42.what it is that I really feel about this question, why I am so utterly

:07:43. > :07:46.and completely determined to maintain the sovereignty of this

:07:47. > :07:57.United Kingdom Parliament. It is very simple, Mr Speaker. You see, we

:07:58. > :08:03.are elected, by the voters in our constituencies, and we come here and

:08:04. > :08:08.have done for many centuries to represent their grievances and their

:08:09. > :08:16.interests, to fight for their prosperity, to support them in

:08:17. > :08:22.adversity. The reason why this House has to remain sovereign, is because

:08:23. > :08:27.it simply can't be subordinated to the decisions that are taken by

:08:28. > :08:31.other people, this is about this country and this is about our

:08:32. > :08:39.electors, this is what people fought and died for. If I may say, when my

:08:40. > :08:46.right honourable friend the Prime Minister, as I mentioned yesterday,

:08:47. > :08:50.in his speech, referred to the National Parliament as being the

:08:51. > :08:57.root of our democracy, I would also mentioned that in our history this

:08:58. > :09:10.Parliament has been steeped in the blood, it has been nourished by

:09:11. > :09:15.Civil War. When you're great predecessor -- you're great

:09:16. > :09:24.predecessor refused to accept an armed aggression by the monarchy, in

:09:25. > :09:27.defiance of prospective tyranny, this was about sovereignty, this was

:09:28. > :09:32.about defending the rights of the people from unnecessary and

:09:33. > :09:37.oppressive taxation which was being imposed upon them without

:09:38. > :09:43.Parliamentary authority. And then through subsequent centuries, the

:09:44. > :09:48.repeal of the corn laws, obtaining parliamentary reform, in the 1867

:09:49. > :09:54.act to make sure that the working man should be in title to take part

:09:55. > :10:01.in this democracy. And then after that, through to the 1930s, when we

:10:02. > :10:05.had to take account of the mood of appeasement. I say this with respect

:10:06. > :10:12.to the Prime Minister and to the Minister, I'd take the view that in

:10:13. > :10:14.completely different circumstances what has happened in these

:10:15. > :10:19.negotiations in terms of Parliamentary sovereignty, when the

:10:20. > :10:23.die is cast, when we have an opportunity for the first time since

:10:24. > :10:30.1975 to make a decision on behalf of the British people, having regard to

:10:31. > :10:37.the massive failures of the European Union, to the dysfunctionality

:10:38. > :10:44.whether that is in the economics field or immigration, in relation to

:10:45. > :10:48.the question of defence, a range of matters which are absolutely

:10:49. > :10:52.essential to our sovereignty, they have all within the framework of the

:10:53. > :10:59.European Union been made subject to the criticism that it is better,

:11:00. > :11:02.they argue, that we would be more secure if we stayed in the European

:11:03. > :11:06.Union, we would preserve the sovereignty of these people, we

:11:07. > :11:10.would preserve the sovereignty of our electors who elect us to make

:11:11. > :11:15.these decisions and make the laws which govern them. That we would be

:11:16. > :11:21.more secure by being in a completely dysfunctional, insecure and stable

:11:22. > :11:25.Europe. Of course we wouldn't. The issues before us are actually to do

:11:26. > :11:33.with the sovereignty, because if we lose this sovereignty we betray the

:11:34. > :11:35.people, that is the point I make. There are certain obliges use to

:11:36. > :11:42.cooperation and trade and all these things, and I agree with it, always,

:11:43. > :11:48.but I will not argue for this chamber, this Parliament, the right

:11:49. > :11:58.of these people, who wrote for us, to be sold -- who vote for us, to be

:11:59. > :12:02.subordinated, to put us into the second part of a 2-tier Europe,

:12:03. > :12:08.which would be governed by the dominant country in the Eurozone

:12:09. > :12:15.which is Germany. I will give way. Thanks. Would he agree that one of

:12:16. > :12:21.the most worrying sentences in the document published this week is

:12:22. > :12:27.about what will occur if the Eurozone six to deepen the

:12:28. > :12:31.integration, and it says member states shall not impede the

:12:32. > :12:37.implementation of legal axe directly linked to the functioning of the

:12:38. > :12:42.euro -- six to deepen the integration. Given that there is

:12:43. > :12:47.going to be a new treaty, we do not know how it will affect us, is Ms

:12:48. > :12:56.effectively giving up our veto? -- isn't that. We were promised that in

:12:57. > :13:00.1972, it was a voluntary decision based on certain assumptions, and in

:13:01. > :13:05.the 1971 White Paper which actually preceded that debate it said we will

:13:06. > :13:11.never give up the veto and it went on to say that because to do so

:13:12. > :13:13.would be against our vital national interests and would endanger the

:13:14. > :13:18.very fabric of the European Community. They knew which way it

:13:19. > :13:22.could go, they knew they had to keep the veto and it has been taken away

:13:23. > :13:28.from us, progressively, by successive governments. These

:13:29. > :13:33.negotiations, when you cut through the appearances, it is a sham, that

:13:34. > :13:46.is a problem. This is the real issue. You are so right to raise

:13:47. > :13:50.this above may technicalities. Is not the blood of all those

:13:51. > :13:56.parliamentarians who have died in defence of this House the seedcorn

:13:57. > :14:03.of our liberties? I 100% agree. This is not about technicalities, this is

:14:04. > :14:07.about freedom of choice. Freedom of choice in the ballot box to have

:14:08. > :14:11.your own laws, which you can challenge, Canterbury, not by

:14:12. > :14:20.proportional representation, not by European Parliament --

:14:21. > :14:25.accountability. To hatch out deals on behalf of the people who are

:14:26. > :14:33.actually being affected by them in their daily lives, this is the

:14:34. > :14:40.problem. We have wordsmiths, people running around in chauffeur driven

:14:41. > :14:44.cars making decisions, unelected bureaucrats, that is the problem, Mr

:14:45. > :14:50.Speaker. We have actually reached a point of no return. We have to say

:14:51. > :14:54.no, we have to leave, that is the position I don't need to say any

:14:55. > :14:59.more as far as I'm concerned, this is about the liberties of this

:15:00. > :15:05.country. It is about the liberties of our people, this is why I say we

:15:06. > :15:15.must leave the European Union and I will finally quote, if I may, GK

:15:16. > :15:19.Chesterton and John Gower. Smile at ask pay us, pass ask but do not

:15:20. > :15:30.quite forget, for we are the people of England, that had never spoken

:15:31. > :15:35.yet -- smiled at us, paid us, pass us. I'm disappointed there are so

:15:36. > :15:40.few of my colleagues here who wish to defend the EU and speak against

:15:41. > :15:47.the sovereignty of this Parliament, but they are not here so I will say

:15:48. > :15:50.a few words. What I want to say that and we are talking that great

:15:51. > :15:54.parliamentarians, I want to quote some of those things which were said

:15:55. > :15:59.by one of the greatest parliamentarians, sadly now dead,

:16:00. > :16:09.Tony Benn, in this house and I think some of those things, following on

:16:10. > :16:13.from the right honourable member, and I agree with everything he said,

:16:14. > :16:16.this is not about technicalities and wordsmiths, this is not about

:16:17. > :16:21.Eurocrats, this is about fundamentally our belief in our

:16:22. > :16:27.country and the belief in our country to run itself. Two things,

:16:28. > :16:34.this was a letter he wrote to his Bristol constituents in December

:16:35. > :16:43.1974, I think you were probably were born, Mr Speaker. " Britain's

:16:44. > :16:46.continuing membership of the community would mean the end of

:16:47. > :16:51.Britain as a self-governing nation and the end of our democratically

:16:52. > :16:57.elected parliament as the supreme lawmaking body in the United

:16:58. > :17:00.Kingdom", and he then made a speech in the Cabinet when they were

:17:01. > :17:07.discussing the Labour view on how they should vote in the leaving

:17:08. > :17:13.referendum in 1975. The party was very split. He says, "We have

:17:14. > :17:21.confused the real issue of Parliamentary democracy for there

:17:22. > :17:24.has been a fundamental change, the power of MPs other ministers has

:17:25. > :17:29.gone and the role of minsters has changed, the real case for entry has

:17:30. > :17:32.never been spelt out which is that there should be a fully federal

:17:33. > :17:37.Europe in which we become a province, it has not been spelt out

:17:38. > :17:41.because people would never accept it, we are at the moment on a

:17:42. > :17:45.federal escalator, moving as we talk, going towards a federal

:17:46. > :17:48.objective we do not wish to reach, in practice, Britain will be

:17:49. > :17:53.governed by a European Coalition Government that we can't change,

:17:54. > :17:58.dedicated to a capitalist or market economy theology. This policy is to

:17:59. > :18:02.be sold to us by projecting an unjustified optimism about the

:18:03. > :18:11.community and an unjustified pest is about the United Kingdom, designed

:18:12. > :18:19.to frighten us -- pessimism. ". He then mentions Jim, I imagine Jim

:18:20. > :18:24.Callaghan. "The Common market will break up the UK, because there will

:18:25. > :18:31.be no valid and men against an independent Scotland with its own

:18:32. > :18:36.ministers and Commissioner -- valid argument. It will impose appalling

:18:37. > :18:40.strains on the Labour movement, and I believe that we want independence

:18:41. > :18:48.and democratic self-government and I hope the Cabinet in due course will

:18:49. > :18:53.think again". In 1975 he gave another speech, "It would be

:18:54. > :19:01.inconceivable for the house to adjourn for Easter without recording

:19:02. > :19:07.the fact that last Friday the merchant shipping act was referred

:19:08. > :19:12.to the European Court, and I want to make it clear to the house that we

:19:13. > :19:15.are, in Britain, unless we repeal section two of the European

:19:16. > :19:20.Community 's act, it is no good talking about being a good European.

:19:21. > :19:25.We are all good Europeans, that is a matter of geography or stop the

:19:26. > :19:28.arrangements under which are governed such that we have broken

:19:29. > :19:38.the link between the electorate and the laws under which they are

:19:39. > :19:41.governed close? -- governed? He says when people voted in an action they

:19:42. > :19:45.must be entitled to know that the party for which they voted will be

:19:46. > :19:50.able to enact laws under which they will be governed, but that is no

:19:51. > :19:55.longer true, any party elected, Conservative or Labour, canola say,

:19:56. > :20:05.vote for me, and if I have a majority, I will pass that law --

:20:06. > :20:10.cannot say. " Very apt, although she is a go. Even more apt today, which

:20:11. > :20:13.is why I believe that this house must be sovereign, the Prime

:20:14. > :20:18.Minister's negotiations have failed to look at that and that is why the

:20:19. > :20:25.people, women get this referendum, will finally have the chance to say

:20:26. > :20:29.no to this undemocratic, anti-democratic and anti democracy

:20:30. > :20:36.as we want to have it in this country -- when we get this

:20:37. > :20:41.referendum. Thank you, Mr Speaker. On this day of all days I commenced

:20:42. > :20:46.by striking, I hope, a note of humility. The truth is I don't know

:20:47. > :20:50.whether the inclusion I have reached is right or wrong. I think the

:20:51. > :20:57.problem that we face in questioning our consciences as to whether or not

:20:58. > :21:01.our country should take this historic step to depart from the

:21:02. > :21:08.European Union is almost too big for a single individual to compute. All

:21:09. > :21:13.of the potential economic consequences, all of the other

:21:14. > :21:17.consequences on our social and other fabric, they are of a complexity

:21:18. > :21:21.with which individuals would rightly feel daunted and even members of

:21:22. > :21:29.Parliament. Not just for now, thank you. So I think the Prime Minister

:21:30. > :21:32.was right, Mr Speaker. Right and completely right when he said to the

:21:33. > :21:41.house this week, do what is in your heart. We can never be sure if we

:21:42. > :21:45.leave the European Union that the economic consequences of doing so

:21:46. > :21:50.will play one way or the other. We can have faith that it will.

:21:51. > :21:55.Speaking for myself, I have that faith. Ultimately we have to ask

:21:56. > :22:00.ourselves what do we believe is right. What is important to ours as

:22:01. > :22:03.members of Parliament and as representatives of our country and

:22:04. > :22:12.our constituents. That is why sitting here late this -- listening

:22:13. > :22:16.to my honourable friend the member for Stone, I think he struck the

:22:17. > :22:19.right note. For a long time I have remained silent on this issue.

:22:20. > :22:23.Trying to wrestle with the rights and wrongs of it and waiting until

:22:24. > :22:27.we have seen the final version of the proposals to be made by the

:22:28. > :22:36.Prime Minister. We now have the draft decision published by the

:22:37. > :22:40.coalition the day before yesterday. I have to say and have read it and I

:22:41. > :22:43.do not believe it is a sham. I believe it is the best the Prime

:22:44. > :22:47.Minister can do within the parameters he set himself. I believe

:22:48. > :22:52.there is much useful stuff there and if it is worked on and the detail is

:22:53. > :22:55.provided and it's sufficiently substantial and drafted well, no

:22:56. > :23:04.doubt it will provide some modest measure of satisfaction and some

:23:05. > :23:07.ring fencing for us in a thoroughly fundamentally unsatisfactory

:23:08. > :23:12.position. But I do not believe that it amounts to a rewriting of the DNA

:23:13. > :23:18.of this organisation, which I believe the country is crying out

:23:19. > :23:23.for. So for that reason, Mr Speaker, I have concluded, and it is the

:23:24. > :23:30.first time I have said though, that I shall be obliged to vote to leave

:23:31. > :23:33.the European Union. I believe it is a question of freedom, as my

:23:34. > :23:39.honourable friend does. The freedom of this country to be true to

:23:40. > :23:46.itself. To follow the policies that this house and its executive

:23:47. > :23:48.believes are the best policy is fitted and suited for the interests

:23:49. > :23:54.of this nation, not dilutive, not of this nation, not dilutive, not

:23:55. > :24:01.representing an accommodation and a constant adjustment to the competing

:24:02. > :24:04.interests of 29 members, but following the path that this nation

:24:05. > :24:13.sets and is right for this nation's interests. For 40 as we have

:24:14. > :24:21.shifted, adjusted and felt uneasy in our skins. And what we have had to

:24:22. > :24:26.compromise with as a consequence of being in the union. I say to our

:24:27. > :24:32.partners in the European Union, this is not an act of hostility. This is

:24:33. > :24:36.a rebirth of our country. In its full independence and in its full

:24:37. > :24:41.freedom, Mr Speaker. So that we can set our commercial policies, so that

:24:42. > :24:45.we can be decisive and clear and give a lead to the international

:24:46. > :24:51.community in foreign policy. So that we can set our own defence policy as

:24:52. > :24:56.best we judged to be in the interests of those whom we

:24:57. > :24:59.represent. So that we can have clear lines of democratic accountability.

:25:00. > :25:05.And so that we can fulfil the spirit and genius of our own nation, and I

:25:06. > :25:13.say to this house and to those who listen outside, let us trust in the

:25:14. > :25:20.genius of our own people. Until 1974, did this country do so badly?

:25:21. > :25:24.Were we not leaders in the development of human rights? Did we

:25:25. > :25:31.not have 400 years of peaceful political evolution? I say this

:25:32. > :25:37.country does not have to be afraid of resuming its own independent

:25:38. > :25:44.self-governance. And we can offer more to the world by that means that

:25:45. > :25:50.we can by being part, a muted voice in a big organisation with these

:25:51. > :25:58.objectives and outcomes we do not feel at ease. And so, Mr Speaker,

:25:59. > :26:02.not attempting to address now the technicalities of this issue, the

:26:03. > :26:06.economic rights and wrongs, let me can cleared on a note of freedom

:26:07. > :26:23.with the words of John Milton himself. " Me thinks I see in my

:26:24. > :26:33.mind a noble and puissant nation rousing herself like a man after

:26:34. > :26:42.sleep and shaking her locks. When he spoke those words, he spoke in

:26:43. > :26:43.defence of freedom and truth. Let us believe in the genius of our

:26:44. > :26:54.country. Thank you very much, Mr Speaker. I

:26:55. > :27:01.have had to remind myself what motion we're debating today because

:27:02. > :27:07.it does strike me that with the possible exception of the last

:27:08. > :27:11.Speaker... I'm not convinced that anyone other than the last Speaker

:27:12. > :27:15.would have said anything different. I would never have thought that

:27:16. > :27:19.almost exactly nine months since becoming a new member of Parliament

:27:20. > :27:23.I would be in a position of giving a lesson in English Parliamentary

:27:24. > :27:27.history to one of the most esteemed and experienced parliamentarians to

:27:28. > :27:33.grace this chamber. But this lament did not witness the Civil War. This

:27:34. > :27:38.Parliament did not exist at the time of the English Civil War. One of its

:27:39. > :27:45.predecessors did. But at best this Parliament has existed since 1707.

:27:46. > :27:49.Some would argue that the Parliament of the United Kingdom in Northern

:27:50. > :27:52.Ireland is less than 100 years old. I say that not to knock the pride of

:27:53. > :27:56.those who justifiably believe that the previous Parliament of England

:27:57. > :27:59.delivered a lot and was a trendsetter for democracy in many

:28:00. > :28:03.parts of the world, but if you have a strong and to play you damage it

:28:04. > :28:07.by overplaying it. I fear that some of us are overplaying the

:28:08. > :28:10.significance of the history of previous parliaments that have met

:28:11. > :28:16.not in this exact building but in those close. I will happily give

:28:17. > :28:19.way. I will simply say that when Scotland joined us in the union that

:28:20. > :28:24.was in order to combine our fight for freedom as indeed the Scots

:28:25. > :28:28.fought with us right the way through all the great battles including not

:28:29. > :28:31.only Waterloo but also through the Somme and right the way through the

:28:32. > :28:36.Second World War. It's that freedom we fought for together. You're

:28:37. > :28:39.absolutely correct, Mr Speaker. The polls and the French and the

:28:40. > :28:46.Hungarians fought alongside us as well, but what actually happened in

:28:47. > :28:51.1706 was that the two parliaments were combined. It was not a takeover

:28:52. > :28:57.of one Parliament by another. I entirely respect the clear pride and

:28:58. > :29:00.positive English nationalism that we're seeing from some of the

:29:01. > :29:06.speakers opposite. That is a positive thing as long as

:29:07. > :29:13.nationalism is based upon love for and pride in one's country, it is

:29:14. > :29:17.something to be welcomed. We are not the people of England. We are the

:29:18. > :29:21.people of Scotland. We are the sovereign people of Scotland and

:29:22. > :29:29.sovereignty over our nation is and always will be bested. For Scotland,

:29:30. > :29:33.sovereignty does not reside in this place. It does not reside in those

:29:34. > :29:41.of us being sent to serve in this place. It resides in those who have

:29:42. > :29:44.sent us to serve in this place. I genuinely interested in this concept

:29:45. > :29:48.that being the assiduous in Parliament is ultimately sovereign

:29:49. > :29:52.even though the people. Perhaps somebody who speaks later on could

:29:53. > :29:56.explain, who decided that Parliament was sovereign and who gave them the

:29:57. > :30:01.right to decide that Parliament was sovereign? I suspect that people

:30:02. > :30:06.agreed the Parliament was sovereign and therefore the people have the

:30:07. > :30:13.right to change that decision. I will happily give way. Would he

:30:14. > :30:17.access that this debate is not about purely the sovereignty of this

:30:18. > :30:23.place, it's the sovereignty of the people who elect people to this

:30:24. > :30:27.place. Therefore if we become pawns, the sovereignty that he is talking

:30:28. > :30:33.about, the sovereignty of people of Scotland, Northern Ireland, England

:30:34. > :30:38.and Wales has been diminished? I take on board the honourable

:30:39. > :30:42.member's comments but the motion does not mention the sovereignty of

:30:43. > :30:46.the people. The motion is about the importance of parliamentary

:30:47. > :30:50.sovereignty. The two are not the same thing. The two are most

:30:51. > :30:53.definitely not the same thing. If Parliament is sovereign, does

:30:54. > :30:58.Parliament have the legal constitution to pass any legislation

:30:59. > :31:02.however morally repugnant it may be? And the people's only recluse is to

:31:03. > :31:06.wait five years and wait for a different -- vote for a different

:31:07. > :31:11.Parliament. That is not a version of parliamentary sovereignty that I

:31:12. > :31:15.recognise. It is not a parliamentary sovereignty version that the people

:31:16. > :31:18.of Scotland except. I need to make some progress, the honourable member

:31:19. > :31:23.has had a lot of interventions early on this afternoon. I want to look at

:31:24. > :31:29.the second part of the motion. I think this goes to the nub of the EU

:31:30. > :31:33.membership debate. We've heard again the phrase ever closer union being

:31:34. > :31:36.repeated as if it is some kind of threat, as if it is a threat that

:31:37. > :31:41.we're going to be swallowed up by some big two headed monster probably

:31:42. > :31:44.in Germany but possibly in Brussels. I would urge members to look at the

:31:45. > :31:49.wording of the preamble to the European treaties as to what that

:31:50. > :31:53.phrase was originally intended to mean. The exact wording varies from

:31:54. > :31:57.time to time but we're talking about ever closer union between the

:31:58. > :32:03.peoples of Europe so that decisions can be taken as close to the

:32:04. > :32:06.decisions as possible. I want to ask those on this side of the house who

:32:07. > :32:11.are so determined to argue against that concept, are we saying that we

:32:12. > :32:15.want to derive the peoples of Europe -- drive the peoples of Europe

:32:16. > :32:20.further apart, at a time when they are facing -- we are facing the

:32:21. > :32:23.greatest humanitarian crisis in our history that nobody believes can be

:32:24. > :32:28.addressed by individual nations acting on their own? Are we really

:32:29. > :32:33.acting against the concept of ever closer union between the peoples of

:32:34. > :32:38.Europe. The peoples, plural, is not some kind of mistake because it was

:32:39. > :32:44.said by Alexander the meerkat, it is their to recognise the diversity in

:32:45. > :32:50.the cultures and faiths of people in Europe. Are we against the decision

:32:51. > :32:53.that this should be taken by the people as closely as possible? I

:32:54. > :32:56.think that phrase can still be turned into one of the greatest

:32:57. > :33:01.assertions of the rights of the peoples of Europe that we have seen.

:33:02. > :33:04.It is a vision that has not been followed by institutions of the

:33:05. > :33:08.European Union and I willingly accent that. The institutions of the

:33:09. > :33:12.European Union have failed and are still continuing to fail on the

:33:13. > :33:15.vision that was that out in individual treaties. I would much

:33:16. > :33:19.rather we continued to be part of a European Union so that that vision

:33:20. > :33:23.can be delivered, because it is a vision that I find not only

:33:24. > :33:28.welcoming, I find it highly exciting. Just imagine living in a

:33:29. > :33:31.Europe where monolithic power mad bureaucrats whether it be in

:33:32. > :33:37.Brussels or somewhere a bit closer to home are no longer able to ride

:33:38. > :33:40.roughshod over the will of the people. I would remind the house

:33:41. > :33:45.that there was a Prime Minister not that long ago who chose to ride

:33:46. > :33:49.roughshod over the will of the people and the immovable object that

:33:50. > :33:52.was the late Margaret Thatcher met the irresistible force that was the

:33:53. > :33:57.will of the people of Scotland over the imposition of the poll tax.

:33:58. > :34:02.Within two years, the immovable object had been moved and the

:34:03. > :34:06.irresistible force that is the sovereign rule of the people of

:34:07. > :34:14.Scotland is still there and will be there forever. Can I assure him that

:34:15. > :34:18.the one thing the irresistible force would not be able to compete against

:34:19. > :34:25.would be an irresistible force from Brussels? You would never get your

:34:26. > :34:29.way, never again. Mr Speaker, nobody knows. During the independence

:34:30. > :34:34.referendum people asked why I was still happy for Scotland... We have

:34:35. > :34:39.never had a chance to be part of the European Union. Luxembourg gets a

:34:40. > :34:45.vote on fishing policy and Scotland doesn't. Scotland's fisheries

:34:46. > :34:50.minister was not allowed to be part of the delegation. They sent an

:34:51. > :34:59.unelected Lord instead of a minister who is actually respected by

:35:00. > :35:03.fishermen. My own constituency has a bigger coastline than Luxembourg,

:35:04. > :35:07.and yet Luxembourg gets a vote on fishing policy. These are the kind

:35:08. > :35:11.of reforms we wish to see. Mr Speaker, I love to see the day when

:35:12. > :35:14.the dream of Europe as originally set out is realised, when the

:35:15. > :35:18.peoples of Europe are genuinely brought closer together, not the

:35:19. > :35:21.institutions, not the civil servants, not the governments but

:35:22. > :35:24.the peoples of Europe are brought closer together and decisions are

:35:25. > :35:28.taken more closely to the people that they are just now. I long to

:35:29. > :35:43.see a Europe where man to man the world over... Thank you, Mr Speaker.

:35:44. > :35:49.In 2013, the Prime Minister set out the future of Europe in his

:35:50. > :35:54.Bloomberg speech, the Prime Minister acknowledged that the status quo was

:35:55. > :36:01.not working for us any more. He promised change, reform, and even a

:36:02. > :36:06.new treaty, having received the draft negotiation I ask myself,

:36:07. > :36:13.where are these grand promises of fundamental reform? There are none,

:36:14. > :36:22.not a single clear-cut promise on a treaty change. The Prime Minister

:36:23. > :36:27.said that the European Union cannot progress with more of the same. So

:36:28. > :36:41.far, that is all I have heard. More of the same complex rules and

:36:42. > :36:47.restrict doing, more of the same foreign domination that we have not

:36:48. > :36:53.asked for and we do not want. Bash and restrictions. The European Union

:36:54. > :36:55.is its own biggest threat. How many times will be be promised a more

:36:56. > :37:00.competitive environment, how many times have we been told that red

:37:01. > :37:07.tape will be cut and the single market strengthened? We have yet to

:37:08. > :37:15.see real promises then we have yet to see proper results, enough is

:37:16. > :37:20.enough. I'm interested in Donald Tusk's definition of sovereignty.

:37:21. > :37:26.Because the proposals can hardly be called sovereign. Nor do they let

:37:27. > :37:34.power flow back into this Parliament. Instead, we could

:37:35. > :37:41.receive a red card. A red card that can only be used when a group of

:37:42. > :37:48.national parliaments decide to stop a legislative proposal, a majority

:37:49. > :37:55.of 55% of member states is to be a red card. Where is my majority would

:37:56. > :38:03.be 100% of the United Kingdom. -- wearers. What about this emergency

:38:04. > :38:07.brake? An emergency that needs to be objectively justified and wear as it

:38:08. > :38:20.is jolly good that the commission tells us that the UK would qualify

:38:21. > :38:28.to pull this break, it is outrageous that the final word would lie with

:38:29. > :38:36.other member states. We might not have to pursue an ever closer union.

:38:37. > :38:42.When the UK is neither allowed to pull its own break or to decide its

:38:43. > :38:45.own emergency, that is when I feel that the ever closer union is still

:38:46. > :38:50.very much upon us. The Prime very much upon us. The Prime

:38:51. > :38:55.Minister described an updated European Union as flexible,

:38:56. > :39:03.adaptable and more open. I can only see this supposedly updated European

:39:04. > :39:08.Union, that is inflexible, on adaptable and blocked, and the Prime

:39:09. > :39:15.Minister did warn us and say that you will not always get what you

:39:16. > :39:22.want. But it is becoming clearer by the day, that with the European

:39:23. > :39:26.Union, you never get what you want. If the European Union really wants

:39:27. > :39:33.us to stay, would they not have offered us more? The European Union

:39:34. > :39:41.has sucked up our sovereignty, trampled all over our ancient rights

:39:42. > :39:44.and freedoms. Are we simply going to carry on with this relationship we

:39:45. > :39:50.have with the EU when the EU so obviously does not want to change?

:39:51. > :39:58.Is not the only solution to say, leave, to this whole spectacle? This

:39:59. > :40:11.renegotiation is a spectacle. Too much noise, much too little

:40:12. > :40:16.substance. Sir Joel Howarth. What a great budget is to take part in this

:40:17. > :40:27.vitally important about and I congratulate my friend from Basildon

:40:28. > :40:38.and Billericay -- what a great privilege. As to my friend from West

:40:39. > :40:46.Devon, that was a told a force. -- for divorce. This is not a new

:40:47. > :40:54.issue. This has been going on for the best part of over half a

:40:55. > :40:59.century. When the then Lord Privy Seal Edward Heath sought advice from

:41:00. > :41:03.the then Lord Chancellor, in December 1960, he gave advice in

:41:04. > :41:08.respect of our potential membership of the common market as it was then

:41:09. > :41:11.called. "I Have no doubt if we signed the treaty we will suffer

:41:12. > :41:15.some loss of sundry, but before I evaluate that loss I want to make

:41:16. > :41:22.one general observation, at the end of the day, the decision to join

:41:23. > :41:28.must be decided on broad political grounds -- some loss of sovereignty"

:41:29. > :41:31.. He said it will affect our sovereignty in three ways, he

:41:32. > :41:34.thought. Parliament will be required to surrender some of its functions

:41:35. > :41:37.to the community, the Crown will be called to transfer part of its

:41:38. > :41:41.treaty making power to those organs, our courts of law would sacrifice

:41:42. > :41:44.some degree of independence by becoming subordinate in certain

:41:45. > :41:50.justice. Lord Kilmore oil could not justice. Lord Kilmore oil could not

:41:51. > :41:56.have been clearer, and in 1975 when people were asked to vote on these

:41:57. > :41:59.matters, this issue of the loss of sovereignty was played down by Ted

:42:00. > :42:05.Heath and his government at the time. Some of us foresaw the

:42:06. > :42:09.dangers, we then saw that the organisation, the European economic

:42:10. > :42:19.community had a president and a flag, an anthem, and a court. In

:42:20. > :42:22.1986, 45 of us voted against the single European act, I'm the only

:42:23. > :42:33.Conservative left in the House who voted against it, but there are two

:42:34. > :42:43.on the other benches. I'm in questionable company, but we did

:42:44. > :42:46.have one thing in common at that time and I still do. The European

:42:47. > :43:01.and it is designed to undermine ain't

:43:02. > :43:05.so, of course, but these are all the attributes of a sovereign nation

:43:06. > :43:12.state, and we deceive ourselves if we imagine that this process has now

:43:13. > :43:21.somehow come to a halt. But it has been frozen in aspect -- aspic. We

:43:22. > :43:24.do have to prove to the people, because they can see the direction

:43:25. > :43:29.of travel that has taken place since 1975 on how this organisation which

:43:30. > :43:32.we were told was going to be a common market on goods and services

:43:33. > :43:38.has grown to become so much more, and they intend to continue. As so

:43:39. > :43:41.many members have said, look at the Eurozone, the currency and the

:43:42. > :43:46.absurd deceit that you can have a single currency without a single

:43:47. > :43:50.monetary institution operating a single monetary policy, this process

:43:51. > :43:56.will continue and the British people must be warned that if they vote to

:43:57. > :43:59.stay in this organisation they will not be voting for the status quo.

:44:00. > :44:08.They will be voting for further integration and further change. The

:44:09. > :44:14.Prime Minister, in his excellent speech at the Bloomberg

:44:15. > :44:21.organisation, he made it clear that he believed in maximising

:44:22. > :44:23.parliamentary sovereignty, but the proposals that are contained in the

:44:24. > :44:29.Donald Tusk arrangements, as my Donald Tusk arrangements, as my

:44:30. > :44:37.friend pointed out, these are absurd. We have got to get another

:44:38. > :44:41.15 parliaments to agree, this is not the restoration of sovereignty to

:44:42. > :44:45.this Parliament, this is basically a cop out. I salute the European

:44:46. > :44:49.illustrious members are here today, illustrious members are here today,

:44:50. > :45:03.for the work they have done in pointing out exactly what the

:45:04. > :45:11.situation is. The report which was called reforming the European

:45:12. > :45:19.scrutiny committee, published in 2013, it said the EU, the existing

:45:20. > :45:23.article, which is the EU shall respect the functions of its member

:45:24. > :45:27.states, the democracy of member states, according to the committee

:45:28. > :45:31.report, it recommended there should be a mechanism where the House of

:45:32. > :45:33.Commons can decide that a certain legislative repose or should not

:45:34. > :45:40.apply to the United Kingdom. That seems to be the sensible way but I'm

:45:41. > :45:47.sad that the Prime Minister did not accept the recommendations of the

:45:48. > :45:51.committee. There is a way, but there is pending evidence to show that I

:45:52. > :45:53.think we need to restore evidence, the British people have a

:45:54. > :45:59.once-in-a-lifetime opportunity, and I close with the words of supporter

:46:00. > :46:11.Scott, the great Scottish border poet, from where I draw so much of

:46:12. > :46:28.my own blood -- Sir Walter Scott. " This is my own, my native land, and

:46:29. > :46:35.I want it back". David Nuttall. What is Parliamentary sovereignty? It is

:46:36. > :46:41.the power, the ability of this house, this selective house, to

:46:42. > :46:45.carry out the wishes of the British people. Southern tree of Parliament

:46:46. > :46:49.is actually the sovereignty of the British people. It is the power of

:46:50. > :46:56.the British people and gradually over the last 40 years, bit by bit,

:46:57. > :47:03.successive governments have handed over this power, the power of this

:47:04. > :47:07.House and therefore the power of the British people, to the European

:47:08. > :47:13.Union, but it wasn't back in 1973, Union, but it wasn't back in 1973,

:47:14. > :47:21.and when people voted in 1975, the European Union, then it was the

:47:22. > :47:31.common market, the European economic community. Gradually, it got to the

:47:32. > :47:34.state of the coming a state, it had all the attributes of becoming the

:47:35. > :47:37.United States of Europe with its own parliament and its own flag and

:47:38. > :47:44.anthem and Parliament, and its own court. You don't have to be Einstein

:47:45. > :47:52.to work out where it is going. It is heading in that direction. In doing

:47:53. > :47:58.so, it means that in so many areas the European Union, not this

:47:59. > :48:03.Parliament, is sovereign. This loss of sovereignty on this Parliament is

:48:04. > :48:09.at the heart of my opposition to our membership of the European Union.

:48:10. > :48:12.Handing over powers to the European Union means handing over the powers

:48:13. > :48:23.of my constituents, the British people. And my constituents in the

:48:24. > :48:28.Bury North. It is important for this reason, because when my constituents

:48:29. > :48:34.ask for help, they expect this Parliament to have the power and the

:48:35. > :48:42.ability to be able to sort it out. In so many areas that is not the

:48:43. > :48:50.case any more, and the reality is, whether we like it or not, the power

:48:51. > :48:58.has been handed over to Brussels. That is a very good example, and we

:48:59. > :49:03.have the ports regulation, where the industry employs unions, and the

:49:04. > :49:05.government did not want it to happen, but we are powerless to do

:49:06. > :49:10.anything about it because it will become a European regulation imposed

:49:11. > :49:16.upon this Parliament unless we continue to obstruct it. My friend

:49:17. > :49:22.is right, that is an excellent example. An example of where this

:49:23. > :49:30.house the longer has the ability to control its own affairs. Can I pay

:49:31. > :49:34.to view to the great work that my friend has done, and the European

:49:35. > :49:39.scrutiny committee, bold roaring to the attention of this house and

:49:40. > :49:41.therefore to the British people, the enormous number of rules and

:49:42. > :49:44.regulations which actually come out of Brussels and have to then be

:49:45. > :49:53.enforced by this Parliament. Our constituents come to us

:49:54. > :49:56.expecting us to be able to help. When they find out that we are

:49:57. > :50:03.unable to do so, what does that result in? That results in them

:50:04. > :50:10.having a lack of confidence, a lack of faith in MPs and the political

:50:11. > :50:16.process. That, in turn, is evidenced by a reduced turnout in elections,

:50:17. > :50:20.because they think, why bother, these people have got no power any

:50:21. > :50:26.more. That's why we've seen a falloff in turnout. It means there

:50:27. > :50:29.is a lack of thing gauge and in the political process, because people

:50:30. > :50:34.lose faith and confidence in the hold aquatic process. That is

:50:35. > :50:40.dangerous. -- the whole democratic process. It is the way that

:50:41. > :50:44.societies raked down, while democracy breaks down. That's why

:50:45. > :50:49.it's so important that the people of this country sees this golden

:50:50. > :50:53.opportunity in this forthcoming recommend -- referendum to take back

:50:54. > :50:57.the powers. This is their one opportunity to take back the powers,

:50:58. > :51:02.not for the sake of us in this house but for themselves. Because they

:51:03. > :51:07.will then have the ability, if they don't like what we're doing, to get

:51:08. > :51:10.rid of us and to be able to appoint someone else who they can have faith

:51:11. > :51:15.in. This is where we have common cause with those on the left of

:51:16. > :51:19.British politics who we might disagree with, because they want to

:51:20. > :51:24.have a socialist system, that's what they believed in, that's an

:51:25. > :51:30.honourable position to have. I prefer a capitalist system and I

:51:31. > :51:35.will stand up and defend that, but we can both agree about democracy.

:51:36. > :51:40.We can both agree that the power lies with our constituents, if they

:51:41. > :51:45.don't want me, they can get rid of me and replace me with someone else.

:51:46. > :51:52.We all stand on that basis. It is a golden opportunity. And I hope that

:51:53. > :51:56.what goes out of this debate today is that they will realise that this

:51:57. > :52:03.is the one chance that they will have probably in their lifetimes to

:52:04. > :52:06.get back their powers. Because I do not believe that this renegotiation

:52:07. > :52:13.has changed in any meaningful way the sovereignty of this house. It

:52:14. > :52:17.will not give us back any powers and despite what we might be told, there

:52:18. > :52:20.are a lot of words in these documents which we don't have time

:52:21. > :52:25.in a few minutes to be able to go into in detail but I have looked at

:52:26. > :52:30.them and I'm sure, I'm certain in my own mind that they do not give this

:52:31. > :52:35.house any more powers back and that is why I hope in my heart of hearts

:52:36. > :52:40.that the British people will ask themselves where do I want to be

:52:41. > :52:48.governed by, from here in Westminster or by the foreign powers

:52:49. > :52:55.in Brussels. Steve Baker. Doctor Julian Lewis. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

:52:56. > :53:00.I have to say that if the British people miss this unique opportunity

:53:01. > :53:10.to reject the undemocratic EU superstate project, it will be the

:53:11. > :53:19.fault of people like me. Not me as I am today but me as I was in 1975,

:53:20. > :53:25.when I had the chance to vote to withdraw from the then EEC and I

:53:26. > :53:31.wasted it. Why did I waste that chance? It was very simple. I was

:53:32. > :53:41.intimidated by the establishment. My instincts were to vote to leave, but

:53:42. > :53:45.all around me, in Oxford in that home of lost causes, the great and

:53:46. > :53:49.the good were saying that it was beyond question that the prosperity

:53:50. > :53:58.of the United Kingdom depended upon remaining in the EEC. So I thought,

:53:59. > :54:02.what do I know about it? After all, in those days, it was, as my

:54:03. > :54:07.honourable friend for Berry pointed out, only about an economic

:54:08. > :54:11.community. It wasn't about my pet subject of defence and the security

:54:12. > :54:20.of the United Kingdom. How has that changed? Now it is and now we know

:54:21. > :54:27.where we're heading. So when the time comes for me to advise my

:54:28. > :54:34.constituents about what I think they should do, I will give them six good

:54:35. > :54:41.reasons to leave the EU. I will tell them first that every year the

:54:42. > :54:48.United Kingdom pays ?20 billion to this organisation and gets less than

:54:49. > :54:53.half of it back. Secondly, I will tell them, as we've heard today,

:54:54. > :54:58.that the EU wants ever closer political union and we cannot opt

:54:59. > :55:03.out of this whilst remaining within the European Union. So-called

:55:04. > :55:10.associate membership, which is the trick I think they have waiting to

:55:11. > :55:14.give us at the final stage of the great concessionary Sherrard in

:55:15. > :55:20.which we are currently in gauge, associate membership would actually

:55:21. > :55:25.make no difference at all or might even diminish our own powers still

:55:26. > :55:33.further. Thirdly, I will tell them that the European Union wants a

:55:34. > :55:38.single European population with no borders between EU countries, so

:55:39. > :55:43.that we cannot restrict immigration into the United Kingdom. Fourthly I

:55:44. > :55:49.will tell them that the EU wants to develop its single European currency

:55:50. > :55:58.into a single European economy, controlled from Brussels. Fifthly I

:55:59. > :56:01.will tell them that the EU wants a single European army, a single

:56:02. > :56:05.European foreign policy, and that did a lot of good to the Ukraine,

:56:06. > :56:12.didn't it? Add a single European justice system, all outside UK

:56:13. > :56:18.Government control. And finally, I shall tell them that all this is

:56:19. > :56:25.designed to create a single country called Europe under a single

:56:26. > :56:31.European Government, thus finally taking away the power of the British

:56:32. > :56:38.people to govern ourselves. In his excellent opening speech, my

:56:39. > :56:43.honourable friend for Basildon and Billericay gave a long list of

:56:44. > :56:50.statements made by European bigwigs and I have to say that some of them

:56:51. > :56:55.did actually stumble across the truth, as he pointed out, but

:56:56. > :57:02.usually when they do stumble across the truth they picked themselves up,

:57:03. > :57:05.crush themselves down and carry on as if nothing had happened, as

:57:06. > :57:10.Churchill once said of a lesser British politician. There was one

:57:11. > :57:18.occasion when the truth was told by a European Union bigwig and it was

:57:19. > :57:22.on the New Year's Eve before the introduction of the single European

:57:23. > :57:32.currency, which I think would have then been December 31 1998. I

:57:33. > :57:37.happened to be up and waiting to see the celebrations of the New Year on

:57:38. > :57:48.television and onto my screen came the visage of Romano Prodi, who was

:57:49. > :57:52.then the president of the commission, or as these people like

:57:53. > :57:56.to call themselves, the president of Europe. He was asked a simple

:57:57. > :57:59.question. He was asked about the European single currency and the

:58:00. > :58:06.question was put to him as follows. It's a political project, isn't it?

:58:07. > :58:10.Now remember, this was the angle currency that had been sold to

:58:11. > :58:15.people over and over again as being vital for their economic prosperity.

:58:16. > :58:22.So that's what they asked him. And because it was too late to do

:58:23. > :58:28.anything about it, he told the truth. And he told the truth in an

:58:29. > :58:34.entirely cynical way when he replied, "It is an entirely

:58:35. > :58:39.political project". So we know what they're trying to do and the answer

:58:40. > :58:48.of what we have to achieve is to make sure that people come away and

:58:49. > :58:54.they come to make their decision, are not intimidated by the great and

:58:55. > :58:59.the good on economic grounds, when the real aim is political and they

:59:00. > :59:06.should reject it and vote to leave. James. Thank you, Mr Speaker. May I

:59:07. > :59:10.also congratulate my honourable friend, the member for Basildon and

:59:11. > :59:15.Billericay, on securing this very important debate. The principle of

:59:16. > :59:18.parliamentary sovereignty is the central pillar of the British

:59:19. > :59:24.constitution. It is a principle that, in modern history, flows from

:59:25. > :59:27.the glorious Revolution of 1688. It is the very fountainhead of our

:59:28. > :59:31.freedoms and democracy in this country and I believe it is a

:59:32. > :59:37.principle that every member of this house should seek to defend. Mr

:59:38. > :59:41.Speaker, I've been concerned about Parliamentary sovereignty since

:59:42. > :59:46.1972. I was a very unfortunate Saudi youth! But I remember the debate

:59:47. > :59:52.over accession to what was then the European economic community. I was

:59:53. > :59:57.told by Edward Heath that we would not be losing our sovereignty but we

:59:58. > :00:01.would merely be sharing it. I felt at the time that that was a

:00:02. > :00:05.nonsensical proposition. Sovereignty, realistically, cannot

:00:06. > :00:11.be shared. It can either be preserved or it can be surrendered.

:00:12. > :00:15.It was because of that that in 1975, like my honourable friend for New

:00:16. > :00:19.Forest East, I voted against remaining in the European Union and

:00:20. > :00:27.I have to say that my friends have not changed since. My view is that

:00:28. > :00:36.we have ceded, although where hope it is temporarily, our sovereign --

:00:37. > :00:40.sovereignty to the European Union. I believe that that sovereignty can be

:00:41. > :00:46.recovered. I believe that it is not completely lost. But the concern is

:00:47. > :00:52.that the act creation of power to the European Union, which the union

:00:53. > :00:56.is clearly intent on pursuing if the President's report is anything to go

:00:57. > :01:00.by, carries with it the danger that at one stage our sovereignty will be

:01:01. > :01:05.extinguished. That is not something that anyone at this house from the

:01:06. > :01:07.Prime Minister down should be prepared to accept. The Prime

:01:08. > :01:19.Minister, of course, said in his Bloomberg speech, there is not in my

:01:20. > :01:26.view a single European Demos, it is national parliaments that will

:01:27. > :01:30.retain the case of sovereignty in the EU, and that is certainly the

:01:31. > :01:34.case in the United Kingdom. But we must look at the proposition which

:01:35. > :01:38.the Prime Minister unveiled at the house yesterday. The question is

:01:39. > :01:41.whether that decision would, if agreed, be sufficient to restore the

:01:42. > :01:46.sovereignty of the United Kingdom that has been ceded to the EU. I

:01:47. > :01:52.have huge concerns that it does not. In the first place, as my honourable

:01:53. > :01:56.friend for Stone has pointed out in his committee's report, the legal

:01:57. > :02:00.force of a decision which is the agreement of heads of state is one

:02:01. > :02:04.which is open to debate. The draft decision details the various areas

:02:05. > :02:09.of provisional agreement that have been struck between the British

:02:10. > :02:11.Government and the President of the Council and other honourable members

:02:12. > :02:16.have referred to the issues of freedom of movement and benefits and

:02:17. > :02:20.I don't propose to repeat their arguments. However, I would like to

:02:21. > :02:24.refer to what the draft decision says about sovereignty. In the first

:02:25. > :02:29.place, the significance of the repeated references in the treaties,

:02:30. > :02:33.the European treaties, to the creation of an ever closer union,

:02:34. > :02:39.are played down considerably. The decision declares that the word

:02:40. > :02:43.should not be used to support an expansive interpretation of the

:02:44. > :02:46.competencies of the EU or of the power of its institutions. Instead

:02:47. > :02:50.it suggests that the words are simply intended to signal that the

:02:51. > :02:56.union's aim is to promote trust and understanding among the peoples of

:02:57. > :03:01.Europe. Would he agree that with respect to this expression "Ever

:03:02. > :03:05.closer union", even if it is taken out in respect of the United

:03:06. > :03:10.Kingdom, it will not change one word of any of the existing treaties or

:03:11. > :03:17.any of the existing laws and therefore we continue to remain in,

:03:18. > :03:20.subject to those laws and treaties? My honourable friend is entirely

:03:21. > :03:23.right. The decision acknowledges that the competence that had been

:03:24. > :03:27.conferred by the member states on the union can only be modified by

:03:28. > :03:30.revision of the treaties with the agreement of all member states.

:03:31. > :03:35.Therefore the commitment of ever closer union is stated to be

:03:36. > :03:38.symbolic. The reality is that competencies have been transferred

:03:39. > :03:43.from the sovereign nations of Europe, Britain included, to the EU

:03:44. > :03:47.and its institutions. The extent of that transfer is very great indeed,

:03:48. > :03:51.as honourable members have pointed out. The institutions of the EU have

:03:52. > :03:56.become ever more powerful. Indeed, so powerful are they that the

:03:57. > :04:00.proposal to limit benefits to EU migrants under new rules on child

:04:01. > :04:05.benefit, set out in a draft decision itself, would, it seems, be

:04:06. > :04:10.vulnerable, even if agreed by heads of Government or state. Today's

:04:11. > :04:13.newspapers report, Mr Speaker, that members of the European Union will

:04:14. > :04:16.have to bash EU parliament will have the right to veto all reforms

:04:17. > :04:23.proposed including the so-called emergency brake. I will be pleased

:04:24. > :04:28.to give way. Does he not agree that if we are not able to secure

:04:29. > :04:32.substantive reform now, when the second largest member of the union

:04:33. > :04:38.is threatening to walk away, when the fifth-largest economy is likely

:04:39. > :04:44.to walk away, the chances of us ever getting substantive change our nil?

:04:45. > :04:46.I agree entirely with the honourable gentleman, that is the direction of

:04:47. > :04:52.travel that the European Union is hell-bent on pursuing. A document

:04:53. > :04:56.circulated in the European Parliament asserts that the European

:04:57. > :04:59.Parliament will defend the fundamental principles and

:05:00. > :05:03.objectives of the EU and will be cautious of setting dangerous

:05:04. > :05:07.precedents which could undermine such principles and objectives. The

:05:08. > :05:11.issue of Parliamentary sovereignty, Mr Speaker, could not be thrown into

:05:12. > :05:15.any sharper relief. Nor do the red card proposals protect British

:05:16. > :05:20.parliamentary sovereignty, they require recent opinions to be

:05:21. > :05:24.submitted within 12 weeks of submission of a draft EU law and

:05:25. > :05:25.need to represent more than 55% of the votes allocated to national

:05:26. > :05:39.parliaments. I will give way. I wanted my friend

:05:40. > :05:46.can help the House, this issue, the number parliaments or the weighted

:05:47. > :05:53.votes? Germany has 16% of the weighted votes and France has nearly

:05:54. > :06:00.13% of the weighted votes. My understanding it is the latter. This

:06:01. > :06:03.does not amount to a reassertion of the sovereignty of the Queen in

:06:04. > :06:12.Parliament, and I noted yesterday that in response to your question,

:06:13. > :06:19.the Prime Minister said asserting the sovereignty of this House is

:06:20. > :06:22.something we did try introducing... That we did by introducing the

:06:23. > :06:29.European Union act in 2011, and he said he was keen to do it even more,

:06:30. > :06:34.that they will look to do that, at the same time as concluding

:06:35. > :06:37.negotiations. We will be looking forward to seeing what that

:06:38. > :06:40.announcement is, and it will be very helpful if my right honourable

:06:41. > :06:49.friend the giver is an inkling of what is proposed so we can achieve

:06:50. > :06:52.some comfort -- can give us. If what he has done is insufficient the

:06:53. > :06:57.British people will be right to conclude that a vote to withdraw

:06:58. > :07:00.from the European Union will be the only way to preserve the value

:07:01. > :07:07.constitutional integrity of our country. Richard racks.

:07:08. > :07:16.More than 70 years ago our great either nation stood alone against

:07:17. > :07:21.the tyranny of the jackboot -- island nation. Our freedom and

:07:22. > :07:27.Argosy and sovereignty were in mortal peril, led by Winston

:07:28. > :07:30.Churchill we did not flinch to protect them, and hundreds of

:07:31. > :07:33.thousands of our brave men and women, in uniform and out, gave

:07:34. > :07:39.their lives to defend our island and everything we stand for. Because of

:07:40. > :07:46.their sacrifice we have a daunting responsibility to respect what they

:07:47. > :07:50.fought and died for. I must ask, why are we so prepared to hand the

:07:51. > :07:58.future destiny of our proud island nation to unaccountable bureaucracy

:07:59. > :08:08.with barely a murmur? How dare we, how dare we. And how dare anyone

:08:09. > :08:17.want to go down this road, I simply cannot understand it. We have a duty

:08:18. > :08:20.to those who fought and died to stand up for our country and to make

:08:21. > :08:31.sure that hurt sovereignty is kept intact. This sham of a renegotiation

:08:32. > :08:35.does not do that and we all know it. Sadly, one treaty after another has

:08:36. > :08:41.undermined our will to resist a and we have already handed over the UK's

:08:42. > :08:48.head, torso arms and legs will stop now we propose to surrender our very

:08:49. > :08:53.sovereign. And to whom? The answer is a group of unelected

:08:54. > :08:57.commissioners who sit in their multi-million pound glass towers,

:08:58. > :09:03.surrounded by the trappings of secretaries and expenses,

:09:04. > :09:06.pontificating over lobster and champagne, over plans to great a

:09:07. > :09:12.wonderful centralised state, a federal Europe, where uniformity is

:09:13. > :09:25.pressed on and on willing and electric either by guile, persuasion

:09:26. > :09:31.or threat. -- on willing electorate. Is that not the central point of the

:09:32. > :09:34.willingness of the EU having sovereignty devolved to individuals

:09:35. > :09:38.and parliaments, because they can't afford it. If they are going to

:09:39. > :09:43.centralise functions across Europe, forcing states and individuals into

:09:44. > :09:48.arrangements they don't want, sovereignty is the last thing they

:09:49. > :09:54.will tolerate. I could not have said it better. I will expand on that

:09:55. > :10:06.very point. Who is going to lose out? The voters. The man and woman

:10:07. > :10:11.industry who are the members -- on the street who the members on the

:10:12. > :10:15.opposite benches claim to represent. They will find they have no control

:10:16. > :10:21.or say, meanwhile, the political elite marches on. They will be deaf

:10:22. > :10:26.to the cries of those who elected them. Regrettably, this madness will

:10:27. > :10:33.continue, at least in the short term. Germany has too much to lose.

:10:34. > :10:36.And to control the experiment further, closer integration is not

:10:37. > :10:43.only necessary, but it is inevitable. With more and more power

:10:44. > :10:48.going to the centre, what ever the Prime Minister says to the contrary.

:10:49. > :10:52.We are told we are safe from all this, but we are not, and I'm sure

:10:53. > :10:58.that the Prime Minister, an intelligent man, knows it in his

:10:59. > :11:02.heart. I've watched, appalled and dismayed, as we seeded powers to the

:11:03. > :11:07.EU, in an insidious and gradual erosion of our sovereignty. There

:11:08. > :11:11.was a time when all the laws affecting the people of this country

:11:12. > :11:18.were made in this house by directly elected members like us. As we know,

:11:19. > :11:21.that is not the case. As we are being dragged, kicking and

:11:22. > :11:24.screaming, down this truly and democratic path, we have been

:11:25. > :11:31.assured by one Prime Minister after another, don't worry, we have a veto

:11:32. > :11:37.over this, a veto over that, don't worry, we have a red card we can

:11:38. > :11:46.wave, and now we have got to persuade at least 15 EU members to

:11:47. > :11:52.agree with us. Will they hell. To make Mr Speaker, sovereignty means

:11:53. > :11:55.the ability to govern ourselves free from outside interference, but we

:11:56. > :12:01.are not free to do that today. The heavens sake, we have got to ask 27

:12:02. > :12:08.countries for permission to change our welfare. Meanwhile, our borders

:12:09. > :12:12.are dangerously porous, permanently open to EU citizens and horribly

:12:13. > :12:17.vulnerable to input nation by those who will do us harm. What staggers

:12:18. > :12:29.me is how we have wandered into this trap -- vulnerable to those who will

:12:30. > :12:34.do us on. As a member of the European scrutiny committee I see

:12:35. > :12:38.first-hand the raft of legislation that comes in boat loads from across

:12:39. > :12:45.the Channel. It interferes in every single facet of our lives. I will

:12:46. > :12:50.not give way. The arrogance is mind blowing, the intrusion terrifying,

:12:51. > :12:57.the accountability is nonexistent. We have nothing to fear from leaving

:12:58. > :13:03.the EU, except fear itself. That is what the Europhiles are peddling and

:13:04. > :13:11.they are genuinely in hold of a misconceived belief that we are more

:13:12. > :13:16.secure inside the EU than out. Why? The problems of the euro,

:13:17. > :13:20.unemployment, the refugee crisis, they are tearing the EU apart and I

:13:21. > :13:29.can see no logic in that argument. It is Nato that has helped the

:13:30. > :13:33.peace, not the EU. As ever closer union forces more conformity on

:13:34. > :13:37.member nations, the wider the chasm between the electorate and the

:13:38. > :13:42.elected will grow. That is where the wound will fester. There are clear

:13:43. > :13:51.indications of this already across Europe. Who would have thought that

:13:52. > :13:53.the biggest threat to our freedom, democracy and sovereignty, since the

:13:54. > :13:59.Second World War would come from within? I shudder at the indications

:14:00. > :14:02.of staying in the EU and the consequence that will have on

:14:03. > :14:08.everything I and millions of others hold dear. What we need is the

:14:09. > :14:14.enterprise, flair and intelligence and determination, of one nation, to

:14:15. > :14:19.get out there and do business with the world, safe in the knowledge

:14:20. > :14:22.that the country is sovereign, free and truly democratic. Let the Lion

:14:23. > :14:32.roar. Craig Maclean Lee. Can I pay AGB to the business

:14:33. > :14:39.committee for allowing this debate at the right time -- can I pay a

:14:40. > :14:42.tribute. We will hear that the EU is something about free trade, and you

:14:43. > :14:47.need not worry that it is any different from the institution that

:14:48. > :14:50.we thought we were joining in 1973 and I very much fear that we will

:14:51. > :14:56.not be hearing much about this debate, about sovereignty, in this

:14:57. > :15:02.referendum period, so I'm pleased we're this today. It will be about

:15:03. > :15:04.trade. We heard that from the opposition benches yesterday, that

:15:05. > :15:10.we will lose trade from Brexit, but what is really quoted is the 5.5

:15:11. > :15:16.million jobs in the EU that are reliant on trade with us, the 60

:15:17. > :15:23.billion trade deficit that we have with EU countries, with those other

:15:24. > :15:26.27, we are a premier market for EU products and we abide by the rule of

:15:27. > :15:33.law and we are a decent country to do business with. Are we to believe

:15:34. > :15:39.that BMW would not want to sell us their cars? Are we really to believe

:15:40. > :15:43.that a Frenchman would look at a range Rover and say, they are not in

:15:44. > :15:50.the club any more, I'm not going to buy their product. I will give way

:15:51. > :15:57.on that point. That is a valid point. It is important that the stay

:15:58. > :16:03.campaign is positive, and does he realise that the arguments he is

:16:04. > :16:12.rubbishing now, if we left the EU, if we had... Does except that the

:16:13. > :16:19.item that you are advancing similar to what was was being advanced when

:16:20. > :16:25.we have the Scottish referendum -- does accepting the item. I find it

:16:26. > :16:31.curious, how those arguments about trade, that you raise now, you

:16:32. > :16:36.somehow twist them now to your enthusiasm for the European Union,

:16:37. > :16:39.and yet... I do not think trade was at risk if Scotland had left, but

:16:40. > :16:47.you now think it is with the European Union. Order. You keep

:16:48. > :16:51.using the word you, he's a enthusiastic advocate of the British

:16:52. > :16:56.Parliament and a key tenet of our debates is that the debate goes to

:16:57. > :17:02.the chair. There is no you involved. My apologies. It is always exciting

:17:03. > :17:08.when there is an intervention from an SNP member. We have to recognise

:17:09. > :17:13.that trade has changed and that the world is a global place, that trade

:17:14. > :17:18.barriers have come down. I find it strange that many of those trade

:17:19. > :17:23.areas are good when the nations Commonwealth nations, and I find it

:17:24. > :17:28.very strange that our friends, our kids and kin, family, would extract

:17:29. > :17:32.their wallets and find a note with a very familiar and loved face on it,

:17:33. > :17:37.and yet we deny them access to our country. We are not allowed to speak

:17:38. > :17:44.to them on trade terms, because that is done, of course, by a Swedish

:17:45. > :17:50.commissioner. A former university lecturer. You could scarcely make it

:17:51. > :17:58.up. We have enthused about having the Premier of China and India to

:17:59. > :18:06.our country, and yet it is really nothing more than much of a

:18:07. > :18:09.Sherrard. -- much of a trade. We hear that the EU is moving in our

:18:10. > :18:15.direction and that we have got to stay in it to be of influence. We

:18:16. > :18:21.have tried that argument over 40 long years. We have tried to change

:18:22. > :18:27.things and try to reduce its powers, and try arguing that with a small

:18:28. > :18:34.fishermen in Ramsgate or small businesses across our country, with

:18:35. > :18:39.the regulations or red tape. What is the recent history of being at the

:18:40. > :18:43.top table and working from within? At the Council of ministers we are

:18:44. > :18:49.always on the opposing side. The primers that has been outvoted on a

:18:50. > :18:59.qualified majority voting rolls 42 times since 2010 -- the Prime

:19:00. > :19:05.Minister. He is -- needs to be honest with us, the EU is moving in

:19:06. > :19:09.a different direction. We will hear about security and justice, and

:19:10. > :19:14.unafraid that will be part of that operation fear, for the electorate

:19:15. > :19:21.to Meli acquiesce quietly and gently, as we continue the

:19:22. > :19:26.disruption of the sovereignty of this Parliament and this place. We

:19:27. > :19:30.need to go back in time to 1971, two Edward Heath's White Paper, adding

:19:31. > :19:36.that he said there is no question of Britain losing essential sovereignty

:19:37. > :19:42.-- and in that. He said there are some in this country who think we

:19:43. > :19:46.will sacrifice our independence by going into Europe, and these fears,

:19:47. > :19:54.I need hardly say, are completely unjustified. I'm afraid, papers

:19:55. > :19:54.since written by the Foreign Commonwealth Office really reveal

:19:55. > :20:04.what was happening. What has developed since then,

:20:05. > :20:08.obviously those papers were in the very infant days of what the

:20:09. > :20:13.European Union was trying to become. It has amassed a number of treaties

:20:14. > :20:22.since, it has amassed Barak tips and decisions, and of course that bulk

:20:23. > :20:27.of ECJ law. Particularly on VAT, we are completely and utterly

:20:28. > :20:37.subservient to EU law. We had an entertaining debate this week about

:20:38. > :20:41.tax and I think that demonstrates that this place is unable to enact

:20:42. > :20:45.any changes to a key stream of national legislation. We just merely

:20:46. > :20:49.walk through the lobbies, supplicant to what Brussels has told us we must

:20:50. > :20:55.do. Then the Chancellor prepares his annual budget, he first has to start

:20:56. > :21:01.with that ?20 billion of gross contributions to the EU, some 30% of

:21:02. > :21:06.our current deficit. Across corporate taxes in dividends and

:21:07. > :21:10.losses, the primary authority are increasingly ECJ cases and when a

:21:11. > :21:14.Chancellor seeks new rules to actually enhance Britain's

:21:15. > :21:20.investment and entrepreneurial spirit, I will quote the enterprise

:21:21. > :21:24.investment scheme and more recently seed investment schemes, "He had to

:21:25. > :21:31.seek permission from Brussels just in case it flouted state aid rules".

:21:32. > :21:37.The direction of travel by this European Union is very obvious and I

:21:38. > :21:43.will quote Angela Merkel. "We Need political union, which means we must

:21:44. > :21:49.gradually cede powers to Europe and give your control." We are simply,

:21:50. > :21:54.Mr Speaker, on the wrong bus. If we don't take this opportunity to

:21:55. > :22:00.leave, it is probably just as well that there is a major renovation

:22:01. > :22:05.proposed for this palace to be conducted. Because old museums need

:22:06. > :22:08.care. This referendum gives the opportunity to restore this place,

:22:09. > :22:16.to restore to the public of the UK which should never have been taken

:22:17. > :22:19.away from them. Mr Marcus Fish. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I believe in

:22:20. > :22:24.the primacy and sovereignty of this house that flows from the people who

:22:25. > :22:28.sent us here and it's a great honour to follow such rousing and

:22:29. > :22:32.passionate speeches in that regard. My position that I put to my

:22:33. > :22:36.constituents before I was elected was that I would try to give my

:22:37. > :22:41.dispassionate assessment of them of what the referendum choice means in

:22:42. > :22:45.real terms for people and their families and try to explain that

:22:46. > :22:52.logic so that others can see it and make their own choice. I would make

:22:53. > :22:56.a constructive attempt to approach whatever happens next to make sure

:22:57. > :23:00.that we get the best deal for those people. If the house will bear with

:23:01. > :23:05.me for one minute, I want to run through a bit of a ledger on each

:23:06. > :23:12.side as to what some of the advantages of leaving or otherwise

:23:13. > :23:17.might be. Firstly, in the area which is so important to people, can they

:23:18. > :23:21.get a house? I believe there will be -- they will be a lot less likely to

:23:22. > :23:27.be able to get houses on balance if we don't leave. That is partly

:23:28. > :23:31.because there is such an influx of migration from the EU which I don't

:23:32. > :23:36.think we'll let up because of what is being proposed in the

:23:37. > :23:45.renegotiation. I would score that a five out of ten on a range of

:23:46. > :23:48.effects. Second thing is access to services like their school places

:23:49. > :23:52.and their hospitals. I think again that it would be a lot less likely

:23:53. > :23:58.on balance unless we leave that they would have that access. Next is the

:23:59. > :24:02.cost of living and whether that would be manageable. I think that

:24:03. > :24:08.that would be less likely, although not a lot less. I think there will

:24:09. > :24:14.be benefits of less regulation and tax if we leave but I worried about

:24:15. > :24:18.the VAT imposition is imposed on food and clothes in particular and

:24:19. > :24:23.potentially fuel duty. So four is the score I would give them there.

:24:24. > :24:28.Can they move to a big city in this city in search of work? I would say

:24:29. > :24:33.that is a lot less likely and thus I would score that five, unless we

:24:34. > :24:39.leave, because the demand for housing in London and jobs in London

:24:40. > :24:45.is really massive at the moment because of that foreign demand which

:24:46. > :24:49.is closing out -- crowding out domestic supply. Can they get a job

:24:50. > :24:55.where they are? I would say that that's pretty much similar overall

:24:56. > :24:59.either way. I think there may be one or two surprises on trade but I

:25:00. > :25:03.think they would be more than offset or at least as offset by things we

:25:04. > :25:09.can do in terms of negotiating our own trade arrangements. Will their

:25:10. > :25:14.job pay better? Overall, I think that that will be the case if we

:25:15. > :25:18.leave, but not a lot more, so I would score that four. Will they be

:25:19. > :25:24.able to go on holiday and work in Europe? That is a marginally less

:25:25. > :25:30.likely thing if we leave, although I don't think there is any particular

:25:31. > :25:35.issue there in Visa arrangements with non-EU countries that are

:25:36. > :25:41.perfectly normal and work quite well. For countries like Australia.

:25:42. > :25:46.I would score that probably a two, a marginal negative, out of the five.

:25:47. > :25:50.Will they be safe, due to the domestic security arrangements? I

:25:51. > :25:55.really think this is going to be the same either way. I think we already

:25:56. > :25:59.sharing our data with our friends in Europe and that would not cease.

:26:00. > :26:03.It's only very recently anyway that we have for example been sharing the

:26:04. > :26:08.passenger manifest on aeroplanes, which is amazing, really. But I

:26:09. > :26:12.think that that will keep happening. Will we be saved to international

:26:13. > :26:16.again I think it's the same either way. We have heard earlier that we

:26:17. > :26:22.rely on Nato and that would not change with by natural -- bilateral

:26:23. > :26:26.Alaba is being constructed, I'm sure. Will our environment be

:26:27. > :26:30.secure? I think that would be possibly less so, so I would score

:26:31. > :26:36.that two on the little scale I'm doing. Just to vocalise it a bid for

:26:37. > :26:41.a second and to speak to my constituents, one of the concerns

:26:42. > :26:45.they have is as a big exporter like Westland which is international

:26:46. > :26:49.might run into trouble if we leave the EU. I personally think that that

:26:50. > :26:53.is not such a worry, I think we would need to preserve the same sort

:26:54. > :27:00.of regulation in many senses as we have now, for example on Government

:27:01. > :27:04.procurement of large defence orders and that sort of thing. I think we

:27:05. > :27:07.would need to look at replacing some of the science and technology

:27:08. > :27:12.research investment money that the EU currently provides. But that is

:27:13. > :27:18.certainly not beyond the wit of man and these are doable things. Just on

:27:19. > :27:23.that, the other area we would need to look at is farming subsidies. We

:27:24. > :27:26.heard earlier on a member opposite -- from in opposite and I would

:27:27. > :27:36.agree on that. Would you not agree that we no longer have to pay about

:27:37. > :27:42.?10 billion net -- if we no longer have to pay about ?10 billion net to

:27:43. > :27:48.the European Commission we would have an awful lot of money for

:27:49. > :27:51.investment in research best remark I thank my right honourable friend for

:27:52. > :27:55.his intervention and I would agree that I think there is scope there

:27:56. > :28:08.and clearly a lot would need to be spent. We would have to spend a lot

:28:09. > :28:12.on it. Just to summarise, aldolase ten things, the score that I had was

:28:13. > :28:16.basically 36 out of 50 which means that by my logic there which doesn't

:28:17. > :28:20.include an emotional logic which I will come onto in a minute, which is

:28:21. > :28:28.to do with the sovereignty, that does tend to lean meat awards,

:28:29. > :28:33.personally, thinking that I should think that it is in our interests to

:28:34. > :28:38.leave. I would need to feel a fairly strong emotional attachment towards

:28:39. > :28:43.the EU project or institutions to outweigh that. While I don't have

:28:44. > :28:46.that emotional attachment myself, I realise that others might and that

:28:47. > :28:48.they might also have slightly different assessments of their

:28:49. > :28:53.interests and they would happily be able to choose for themselves. When

:28:54. > :28:56.it comes to the sovereignty argument and whether a sovereignty clause or

:28:57. > :29:03.clauses in the renegotiation going on at the moment would make a major

:29:04. > :29:09.difference, I think, you know, that is less clear, particularly on the

:29:10. > :29:13.restriction of immigration. But I don't think we can necessarily

:29:14. > :29:17.reform the EU dramatically by staying in. Clearly the devil will

:29:18. > :29:22.be in the detail and I will certainly look at that and I have

:29:23. > :29:26.not made up my mind fully on that. But I do believe in Britain and its

:29:27. > :29:31.people and the emotion I feel at the moment is really towards them and

:29:32. > :29:37.personally at this stage I would be in client to leave. Thank you, Mr

:29:38. > :29:39.Speaker. A great pleasure to follow my honourable friend and near

:29:40. > :29:45.neighbour in Somerset, the member for Yeovil with his fantastic

:29:46. > :29:49.adulation as to why on balance it would be the right thing to leave. I

:29:50. > :29:53.know the people of Somerset will respond warmly to that lead he is

:29:54. > :29:59.giving them. I want to pick up on a couple of threads made by my

:30:00. > :30:03.honourable friends on this issue of parliamentary sovereignty and what

:30:04. > :30:07.is it about. Because I think that we can sometimes get into the idea that

:30:08. > :30:12.parliamentary sovereignty comes out of a vacuum, but in fact it is a

:30:13. > :30:17.means to an end. It is not an end in itself. It is the way we represent

:30:18. > :30:23.the sovereignty of the British people and they delegate to us for

:30:24. > :30:28.five years the right to make laws in their names but at the end of that

:30:29. > :30:33.five years they expect to have the sovereignty returned to them intact

:30:34. > :30:37.for them to decide how it should be used in future. In that sense I'm

:30:38. > :30:41.very close to the Scottish understanding of the sovereignty of

:30:42. > :30:45.the people. Because it comes from them and it belongs to them and it

:30:46. > :30:52.is not ours to give away, it is ours to protect, return and operate

:30:53. > :30:56.within. It's not about us as individual members of Parliament,

:30:57. > :31:01.it's not about these grand ruse, it's about the rights of the British

:31:02. > :31:05.people and their ability to achieve, through us, the things they have

:31:06. > :31:09.expected to achieve through centuries, primarily I'm thinking of

:31:10. > :31:14.redress a grievance and the right to hold the Government to account. This

:31:15. > :31:19.is where the issue is so difficult because although it is possible to

:31:20. > :31:24.hold the Minister to account and seek redress agreements through this

:31:25. > :31:27.house, in those areas that remain a domestic competence, as soon as the

:31:28. > :31:31.issue has gone beyond these shores and become a European competence, it

:31:32. > :31:35.is impossible to obtain redress agreements through this house.

:31:36. > :31:38.Indeed I had correspondence with the Minister on the half of a

:31:39. > :31:44.constituent where I was empathetic to my constituents's plight but that

:31:45. > :31:49.if he was given the address he was needed, the British Government would

:31:50. > :31:53.itself be fined, therefore he could not get that redress. That is a

:31:54. > :31:57.fundamental attack on Parliamentary sovereignty. Parliamentary

:31:58. > :32:00.sovereignty there for the right reason. Then you take the

:32:01. > :32:02.renegotiation is around us. The honourable member made an

:32:03. > :32:10.interesting point, he said he thought many of us by going to vote

:32:11. > :32:13.against it anyway and were desperate to leave and whatever happened we

:32:14. > :32:17.would not have been willing to accept what the Prime Minister came

:32:18. > :32:21.up with. I don't actually accept that. I think this was an

:32:22. > :32:25.opportunity for fundamental reform and that has not happened. I do

:32:26. > :32:30.believe that the Government has acted in good faith. I don't believe

:32:31. > :32:36.it's got it right but I believe it is in good faith. It is negotiating

:32:37. > :32:40.around the edges, perhaps so seeped in the way of the machinations of

:32:41. > :32:44.the European Union that they have failed to see the big picture. They

:32:45. > :32:48.think that we are negotiating with 27 other countries and the

:32:49. > :32:54.commission, if we get the right to hold a discussion on the difference

:32:55. > :32:57.in view between the in and outs of the euro, that is an amazing

:32:58. > :33:01.achievement, because it's like dealing with this brick wall, for

:33:02. > :33:08.want of a better cliche coming immediately to mind, and we have

:33:09. > :33:12.even been allowed a discussion, we have been allowed something very

:33:13. > :33:16.important we can discuss as an electorate. But looking at it as a

:33:17. > :33:19.-- from a further distance as to what the Prime Minister said over a

:33:20. > :33:23.number of years and what he promised in his Bloomberg speech and what we

:33:24. > :33:27.put in our manifesto, that was not dealing with petty changes around

:33:28. > :33:29.the edges, that was dealing about fundamental reform and the

:33:30. > :33:34.reassertion about sovereignty. Because the renegotiation is worth

:33:35. > :33:41.in that sense so narrow and weak and uninspired, we are left with an

:33:42. > :33:45.option in the referendum of no status quo. As my right honourable

:33:46. > :33:49.friend the member for Aldershot said, it is not between leaving and

:33:50. > :33:55.staying exactly as we are it is between leaving and remaining in a

:33:56. > :34:01.union that is going to ever closer union. And where we look at where we

:34:02. > :34:05.have had opt outs in the past, we know that this is true. The Prime

:34:06. > :34:09.Minister said yesterday that the social chapter no longer exists. The

:34:10. > :34:14.social chapter is incorporated within the treaty, so our opt out

:34:15. > :34:19.there came and went as a frost on a winter morning might disappear at

:34:20. > :34:24.the sun comes out. Opt out on Schengen? Well, it's there, it's

:34:25. > :34:30.important. But recently we agreed that we would be part of a EU Border

:34:31. > :34:34.Force because there is a migration problem, the solution to it is of

:34:35. > :34:37.course more Europe, more European integration and we're going along

:34:38. > :34:42.with it. We're not formally part of it but we're going along with it.

:34:43. > :34:46.The Dublin treaties on returning people to the place where they first

:34:47. > :34:48.sought sanctuary are coming under threat, which would make our

:34:49. > :34:54.position outside Schengen very difficult to manage. On justice and

:34:55. > :34:57.home affairs, we got an opt out under the Treaty of Lisbon. But

:34:58. > :35:05.again and again we have given more weight, we gave away the

:35:06. > :35:08.investigation and rest now in the hands of the European Union. Of

:35:09. > :35:20.course I will give way. My honourable friend, allow me to say,

:35:21. > :35:27.why was there no, no, why was there no referendum on the case of whether

:35:28. > :35:31.these things that were first taken out and then sent back?

:35:32. > :35:37.The referendum act was a protection and also part of a coalition deal,

:35:38. > :35:40.and within that it made sure that the things the Lib Dems were keen on

:35:41. > :35:45.when automatically going to trigger a referendum, but I agree that we

:35:46. > :35:49.should have had a referendum on giving back those things we had

:35:50. > :35:53.claimed then we opted out of justice and home affairs matters a little

:35:54. > :35:58.over a year ago, but when you have got a rest and investigation

:35:59. > :36:05.determined that a European level, the item is going to become

:36:06. > :36:08.stronger, that if a Bulgarian issues a arrest warrant in the United

:36:09. > :36:12.Kingdom, surely there needs to be European common standard to make

:36:13. > :36:18.sure that is done properly. So that direction of travel of where we are

:36:19. > :36:24.is to more Europe. Even within, the context of monetary union, we only

:36:25. > :36:29.have an opt out from stage three, bear in mind, we are committed to

:36:30. > :36:32.stages one and two, and the European Union has not enforce these in

:36:33. > :36:38.recent years for obvious reasons. But that will not always be the

:36:39. > :36:41.case. We are committed, Article 142 of the Treaty of the functioning of

:36:42. > :36:46.the European Union is relevant to this, we are committed to our

:36:47. > :36:51.currency being of interest to the European Union. I will give way.

:36:52. > :36:57.Would you agree with me that part of the problem is that there is a huge

:36:58. > :37:03.degree of unification among the elite at the heart of the European

:37:04. > :37:08.Union, but there is no such sense of common identity among the people of

:37:09. > :37:13.the countries that we represent. You have hit the nail on the head, he is

:37:14. > :37:20.right. There no common people, but there is an elite have this vision

:37:21. > :37:24.of more Europe being the answer to a maiden 's prayer. When you look at

:37:25. > :37:28.the treatment of Greece and the way it suffered with its membership of

:37:29. > :37:31.the euro, forced and encouraged by the European Union and the

:37:32. > :37:35.commission to do it, partly because they were the birthplace of

:37:36. > :37:40.democracy and how outrageous if they did not join in this grand political

:37:41. > :37:45.scheme, and then when they got into difficulties, difficulties

:37:46. > :37:49.economists knew they would get into, what is the answer from the European

:37:50. > :37:53.Union? More Europe and more control of their fares and order action of

:37:54. > :37:58.what they would do -- of their affairs. What has happened in

:37:59. > :38:02.Greece, the clash that is in the motion before us, that is what we

:38:03. > :38:07.have seen, a choice of moving to a single European state or maintaining

:38:08. > :38:13.the sovereignty that is still ours, and to do that we have two vote to

:38:14. > :38:20.leave because Texas maintained it had the right to leave the union of

:38:21. > :38:27.United States, but it didn't. Mr Stephen Gethin 's. I would like the

:38:28. > :38:30.debate to finish at three, if possible, preferably no later, and I

:38:31. > :38:33.don't know if they will be a division of the House, but I would

:38:34. > :38:42.like the debate to finish by three o'clock, if we can manage that.

:38:43. > :38:49.Thank you. Can I give thanks to the member for Basildon and Bill

:38:50. > :38:55.originally for bringing this discussion here -- Billericay. For

:38:56. > :39:00.those coming late to the debate, I would refer you to the excellent

:39:01. > :39:10.speech that was given by my honourable friend, the member for

:39:11. > :39:19.glam rock, -- the member for Glenrothes, Mr Speaker, I want to

:39:20. > :39:25.say this, we think that these negotiations have been a missed

:39:26. > :39:28.opportunity and we wonder if when we hear words about blaming the

:39:29. > :39:32.European Union, if actually we should be thinking about how the UK

:39:33. > :39:37.uses its role as a member state instead, because I think that is

:39:38. > :39:48.where the fault lies over the years. I will give way. I'm grateful for

:39:49. > :39:53.bat. At this very moment, there are no fewer than 16 documents from

:39:54. > :39:57.Europe, the European scrutiny committee has asked to be debated in

:39:58. > :40:02.Parliament, some are scheduled and some are not scheduled and some have

:40:03. > :40:07.been waiting for over two years. Would the rod and

:40:08. > :40:17.would you agree that we should look more closely at the government's

:40:18. > :40:20.unwillingness to be scrutinised but -- scrutinised Britain that is a

:40:21. > :40:29.good point. I know that is a frustration that

:40:30. > :40:32.the UK Government is reluctant to have their actions scrutinised

:40:33. > :40:36.within the EU, maybe this is something that can be scrutinised in

:40:37. > :40:42.the summing up. In terms of the missed opportunity, there was a lack

:40:43. > :40:45.of consultation with the devolved administrations for whom this will

:40:46. > :40:51.have a significant impact. Mr Speaker, this government, it needs

:40:52. > :40:54.all be friends it can possibly get, and the failure to take on board the

:40:55. > :40:59.devolved administrations who have done a better job of making friends

:41:00. > :41:03.and influence in recent times was a missed opportunity. Another missed

:41:04. > :41:08.opportunity was to think about what really constitutes a member state.

:41:09. > :41:14.Members on the opposite side of the House were trying to compare

:41:15. > :41:18.Scottish independence with this debate, and let me tell the House

:41:19. > :41:21.this, the European Union could not impose the poll tax on the United

:41:22. > :41:27.Kingdom against its will, the European Union could not have

:41:28. > :41:32.nuclear convoys going through the United Kingdom against its will and

:41:33. > :41:35.the European Union could not impose Trident on the United Kingdom

:41:36. > :41:42.against its will, order things which could be imposed on Scotland. -- all

:41:43. > :41:47.things. The role of the member state and Scotland are totally different

:41:48. > :41:57.issues. I will always give way. I'm delighted. Can I just suggest, very

:41:58. > :42:02.gently, when the Scottish people voted for the union, they voted for

:42:03. > :42:06.the ability to make decisions on behalf of all the people of our

:42:07. > :42:14.union and that needs to be recognised. When the action voted

:42:15. > :42:20.for that union. -- when they actually voted. On that very point,

:42:21. > :42:24.of course they did, this is an issue of respect, and we may not have

:42:25. > :42:27.liked that decision, but this was the decision they made and that is

:42:28. > :42:35.why we are here, we are here in record numbers, in fact. We are here

:42:36. > :42:41.to make our contribution. But this is about respect. Let me make this

:42:42. > :42:44.point, in terms of respect, if we are going to have this referendum we

:42:45. > :42:50.should not be having it too soon, that means respecting the electoral

:42:51. > :42:54.process in Scotland and in Wales and Northern Ireland and London and in

:42:55. > :42:59.the English local authorities. As the honourable member for Gordon and

:43:00. > :43:03.the other members who have signed up to my motion, saying a June

:43:04. > :43:06.referendum would be disrespectful, I think that goes to the heart and

:43:07. > :43:11.that is why the European Union referendum will be a big test of the

:43:12. > :43:18.union that the voters of Scotland voted to remain within. As well as

:43:19. > :43:21.the respect agenda and having that, I think the Prime Minister and the

:43:22. > :43:25.government, and I think people might agree with me, I think you should

:43:26. > :43:28.have the courage of the convictions of the government and have a proper

:43:29. > :43:35.debate about the emission of the European Union. The honourable

:43:36. > :43:40.member for Gordon, he announced the date 544 days before the

:43:41. > :43:44.independence referendum date. -- proper debate about the membership.

:43:45. > :43:49.What I'm suggesting, June is too early, and what I'm suggesting, if

:43:50. > :43:52.the government suggests this is a once in every 14 years decision,

:43:53. > :43:57.that we do it properly and we have the courage of our convictions. I

:43:58. > :43:59.fully believe that the case for remaining within the European Union

:44:00. > :44:03.stands up to that scrutiny and I look forward to making that case.

:44:04. > :44:08.Members will have different views and I respect that. But let's have a

:44:09. > :44:18.proper debate on that issue. And also as a member, let's not have

:44:19. > :44:22.another project fear, and I have been concerned by some of the

:44:23. > :44:26.argument. Do not get me wrong, I think the United Kingdom could be a

:44:27. > :44:32.successful independent country outside the European Union, I think

:44:33. > :44:36.we could stand on its own fate. -- I think we could stand on our own

:44:37. > :44:41.fate, but the question is whether we would be better off in doing so --

:44:42. > :44:46.feet. There is the question of the Scottish people being taken out of

:44:47. > :44:52.the European Union against its own will. 44% of Scots would like to

:44:53. > :44:58.remain within the European Union according to a poll, 21% wanting to

:44:59. > :45:01.leave and the others are undecided, and that shows you that the

:45:02. > :45:06.overwhelming majority of the people of Scotland want to remain within

:45:07. > :45:12.the European Union. I will give way. Very quickly, is he aware that there

:45:13. > :45:17.are serious vested interests in the European Union which will no way

:45:18. > :45:25.allow Scotland to exceed to the European Union and if you just want

:45:26. > :45:28.to look at Spain. -- accent. If you think the European Union would not

:45:29. > :45:32.vote to have its most energy rich country as part of its union, I

:45:33. > :45:36.think you are seriously misunderstanding the European

:45:37. > :45:46.project, I have not heard anything so ludicrous bust just as I have

:45:47. > :45:52.heard other member say that Scotland is somehow behind Albania. That is

:45:53. > :45:55.this respect. There is the issue of mutual respect, it comes down to

:45:56. > :45:59.respect for immigrants and this is something which has been brought up

:46:00. > :46:02.in this debate. Immigration is good for this country and has been good

:46:03. > :46:07.for this country and I wanted to see immigration continue. It is good for

:46:08. > :46:13.my constituencies and I think we need to be careful about how we

:46:14. > :46:20.conduct back. -- about how we conduct back. I don't know what

:46:21. > :46:32.difference this deal makes to Scotland. Does the principle of

:46:33. > :46:36.subsidy end in this place question at I want to see a long debate, I

:46:37. > :46:40.want to see a proper debate, and members across this House will vote

:46:41. > :46:43.with us when it comes to setting the date for the referendum, but let's

:46:44. > :46:51.talk about whether we should have more Europe. We should not be afraid

:46:52. > :46:55.of that, climate change, security issues, climate change, yes, it does

:46:56. > :47:03.exist. Fisheries is a issue we raised. It was the fishermen who

:47:04. > :47:06.were described as expendable, not by the European Union, but by the

:47:07. > :47:12.United Kingdom government that sought to represent them. And on

:47:13. > :47:20.that, I thank the speaker. Very good. Pat Glass. This has been a

:47:21. > :47:29.very long debate, and I've sat through this, I've counted that

:47:30. > :47:33.there were 14 speeches starting with the member for Basildon and Bill

:47:34. > :47:43.Ricky. I'm not counting the wind-up speech is -- Billericay full. All of

:47:44. > :47:49.them have been very passionate and we have heard some very strong

:47:50. > :47:52.views, and we heard the member for North East Somerset who is very

:47:53. > :47:57.eloquent and entertaining, so much so that on occasion I find myself

:47:58. > :48:02.nodding along with him even though I don't agree with a single word he

:48:03. > :48:08.says. What has been depressing is that what we have heard is a rehash

:48:09. > :48:12.of many of the same often ill informed stories about how Britain

:48:13. > :48:17.no longer has control of its own sovereignty, having yielded

:48:18. > :48:20.everything to Europe. What I found disappointing, to those people out

:48:21. > :48:24.there, looking in here, this has been a debate largely of older

:48:25. > :48:30.grey-haired men in grey suits, and that does not reflect the country

:48:31. > :48:40.out there which we represent. And I don't believe... I said largely! I

:48:41. > :48:42.don't believe that represents the country we are here to serve and I

:48:43. > :48:52.don't believe it represents the views of the people out there. It

:48:53. > :48:55.has been another debate and there will be many more in which the

:48:56. > :48:59.Eurosceptic right wing of the Tory party have been able to grandstand

:49:00. > :49:02.their views while positioning an ice pick in the back of their front

:49:03. > :49:07.bench and lining up to rubbish their own Prime Minister. A few of my

:49:08. > :49:12.colleagues have been enthusiastically joining in, two of

:49:13. > :49:15.them, but given over 96% of the members of the Parliamentary Labour

:49:16. > :49:20.Party including every member of the Shadow Cabinet are members of the

:49:21. > :49:24.Parliamentary Labour Party pro EU group it is clear that we are a pro

:49:25. > :49:33.EU party campaigning actively to remain in the EU in the referendum.

:49:34. > :49:36.We have heard much of one side of the argument, and I want to be

:49:37. > :49:42.respectful to the House and give the Minister time to sum up. I intend to

:49:43. > :49:49.keep this brief. The member for Basildon and Billericay at the

:49:50. > :49:51.beginning, he said that the electorate got very exercised about

:49:52. > :49:57.our sovereignty, but not in my experience. People in my

:49:58. > :50:00.constituency are concerned about jobs, youth unemployment, housing,

:50:01. > :50:33.the bedroom tax, tax avoidance on large companies, and immigration.

:50:34. > :50:42.These are simply not the top of the priorities for people out there,

:50:43. > :50:48.working hard. No. This is a largely Tory party drama, a blue on blue

:50:49. > :50:51.issue with very little relevance to the lives of ordinary people

:50:52. > :50:56.struggling to pay their rent and mortgages and to get their kids to

:50:57. > :50:59.school. The Prime Minister has repeatedly given into his own right

:51:00. > :51:04.wing, seeming not to understand that they will never be satisfied on

:51:05. > :51:06.these issues and in doing so he has risked the future prosperity, safety

:51:07. > :51:11.and place in the world of this country as a result. There are many

:51:12. > :51:15.reasons, I'm not going to go over them in great detail, but there are

:51:16. > :51:19.many reasons for amending part of the EU. The economic case, the

:51:20. > :51:23.environmental case, the safety and security of this country in the

:51:24. > :51:26.future and our place in the world. The Labour Party is committed to

:51:27. > :51:29.keeping Britain in the European Union because we believe it is in

:51:30. > :51:33.the best interests of the British people. For us it is simple, Britain

:51:34. > :51:40.is a stronger, safer and more prosperous country as part of the

:51:41. > :51:43.European Union. Mr Speaker, the world is becoming more and more

:51:44. > :51:47.globalised. The problems we face are complex and need international

:51:48. > :51:52.responses. We cannot solve the problems of climate change,

:51:53. > :51:56.international terrorism, crime, people trafficking across the world,

:51:57. > :51:59.on our own. We can only tackle with these issues by working with our

:52:00. > :52:03.partners in Europe. We are part of Nato and the UN and the

:52:04. > :52:07.organisations across the world which mean we have given up some of the

:52:08. > :52:10.things we used to do ourselves for the greater good, the safety and

:52:11. > :52:14.sometimes the prosperity of our country and I don't see a problem

:52:15. > :52:19.with any of that. Moving on quickly to the future. I want to see our

:52:20. > :52:23.sovereignty enhanced by seeking democratic reform that would make EU

:52:24. > :52:27.decision-makers more accountable to its people and not both

:52:28. > :52:31.metaphorically and physically distant from our communities. I want

:52:32. > :52:35.to see economic reform that puts jobs and sustainable growth at the

:52:36. > :52:38.centre of European policy, that brings labour market reforms to

:52:39. > :52:43.strengthen workers rights in a real social Europe. I believe we enhance

:52:44. > :52:46.our sovereignty by negotiating with our EU partners for policies and

:52:47. > :52:51.agreements that benefit us as a country and improve the lives of our

:52:52. > :52:54.citizens. But ultimately the referendum will come down to a

:52:55. > :52:58.decision to remain or leave and I believe that the people of this

:52:59. > :53:02.country will vote for the future and not for a past that only ever

:53:03. > :53:05.existing in the minds of the Eurosceptics on the benches

:53:06. > :53:12.opposite. I would say to the Minister that I would like to call

:53:13. > :53:19.the member for Basildon and Billericay to wind up no later than

:53:20. > :53:23.14.50 eight. Mr Speaker, this has been a long debate. I confess that

:53:24. > :53:29.for me if passed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye! I think the

:53:30. > :53:33.honourable lady will find that this was quite a briefing counter with

:53:34. > :53:38.some of the arguments about this country's place in Europe! I want to

:53:39. > :53:41.congratulate my honourable friend the member for Basildon and

:53:42. > :53:45.Billericay on obtaining the debate and I want to move straight to

:53:46. > :53:48.addressing the central arguments he described in his speech. He is right

:53:49. > :53:56.that Parliamentary sovereignty lies at the heart of how the United

:53:57. > :53:59.Kingdom thinks about its constitutional arrangements and it

:54:00. > :54:05.is true that Parliament remains sovereign today, as I think he

:54:06. > :54:10.himself said in his speech, there is only one reason European law has

:54:11. > :54:13.effect in the United Kingdom at all and that is because Parliament has

:54:14. > :54:20.determined that that should be so and has enacted laws which give

:54:21. > :54:25.European law legal effect here. And to avoid any misunderstanding about

:54:26. > :54:30.the fact that any authority EU law has in Britain derives from

:54:31. > :54:38.Parliament itself, we wrote into the European Union act 2011 in Article

:54:39. > :54:44.18 a section that said that this principle was clear, that European

:54:45. > :54:49.law has direct effect in the United Kingdom only because of Acts of

:54:50. > :54:52.Parliament. As my right honourable friend the Prime Minister said

:54:53. > :54:57.yesterday, if there is more we can do to make that principle clear we

:54:58. > :55:04.would be keen to do that. It's open to Parliament too to pass laws, to

:55:05. > :55:08.rescind the European communities act 1972, to end Britain's Amr Shabana

:55:09. > :55:12.the European Union. If ultimate sovereignty did not continue to lie

:55:13. > :55:15.here, there would be little purpose in us having this national debate

:55:16. > :55:22.about a referendum on British membership at all. I want also just

:55:23. > :55:26.worry briefly to say to my honourable friend the member for

:55:27. > :55:33.South Dorset that he is right, that standing alone in 1940 should

:55:34. > :55:35.continue to be a source of pride and inspiration to everyone in this

:55:36. > :55:42.country from whichever political family they happen to come, but

:55:43. > :55:49.don't let us forget that that was never a situation that this country

:55:50. > :55:56.or Winston Churchill sought. It was one forced upon us by defeat and

:55:57. > :56:03.only a few days or weeks before the Churchill speech about fighting on

:56:04. > :56:09.alone, he had gone to France and offered France is a political union

:56:10. > :56:16.with the United Kingdom in order to try to maintain the struggle against

:56:17. > :56:23.Nazism. If we look back at our great history, we can see how leaders like

:56:24. > :56:27.Marlborough, Pitt, Wellington, Disraeli sought to advance the

:56:28. > :56:32.interests of the United Kingdom, of the British people, through building

:56:33. > :56:35.coalitions of allies and of support amongst other nations on the

:56:36. > :56:39.European continent. My honourable friend will forgive me but I have a

:56:40. > :56:41.very limited time and many colleagues have spoken and I want to

:56:42. > :56:49.respond on the half of the Government. As a number of

:56:50. > :56:53.honourable members have said, there is concern about this question of

:56:54. > :56:59.ever closer union, about Britain being drawn against its will into a

:57:00. > :57:04.closer political European Union. I would say that there are a number of

:57:05. > :57:08.clear safeguards against that. First, as the honourable member for

:57:09. > :57:12.Luton North pointed out, we remain opted out of such things as the

:57:13. > :57:16.single currency. We can decide for ourselves whether to participate in

:57:17. > :57:21.individual justice and human rights measures. There are issues such as

:57:22. > :57:26.taxation and foreign and security policy where the national right of

:57:27. > :57:32.veto continues. And we wrote into the 2011 European act that a

:57:33. > :57:38.referendum of the British people would be needed before this or any

:57:39. > :57:41.future Government could sign up to treaty changes that transferred new

:57:42. > :57:48.competencies and powers from this country to Brussels, to the European

:57:49. > :57:53.institutions. That referendum also applies to any measure that moves

:57:54. > :57:57.the power to take decisions at European level from unanimity with

:57:58. > :58:07.the national veto to majority voting. Fourth, what the draft

:58:08. > :58:11.document from President Task is explicitly recognised is that there

:58:12. > :58:15.should be different levels of integration of different member

:58:16. > :58:20.states and that the language in the preamble to the treaty about ever

:58:21. > :58:25.closer union does not compel all member states to aim for a common

:58:26. > :58:28.destination. The fact that this is a draft destination by the European

:58:29. > :58:32.Council is significant because the treaty itself says it is for the

:58:33. > :58:39.European Council to set the strategic political direction of the

:58:40. > :58:43.EU as a whole. We need to recognise in this house that there are other

:58:44. > :58:47.European countries for whom the objective of ever closer union may

:58:48. > :58:52.be welcome and in line with their national interests. I talk to

:58:53. > :58:56.ministers from the Baltic states who say to me that when you have been

:58:57. > :59:03.through their experience of being fought over by Soviet communism and

:59:04. > :59:07.Nazism, when you've lost perhaps a quarter of your population to those

:59:08. > :59:11.tyrannies and to warfare, when you've then lived under Soviet rule

:59:12. > :59:15.for half a century and you get back your independence and your

:59:16. > :59:19.democracy, you grab any bit of European integration that is going

:59:20. > :59:24.because you want that appalling and tragic history not to repeat itself

:59:25. > :59:29.in the future. So we should respect their wish for closer political

:59:30. > :59:37.union in return for then respecting our clear wish to remain outside

:59:38. > :59:43.such a process. My honourable friend asked whether we would invent the EU

:59:44. > :59:46.today. I say very plainly if we were starting from scratch I would not

:59:47. > :59:51.start with the Treaty of Lisbon, but we are where we are. The debate both

:59:52. > :59:54.in this place and in the country, in assessing both the results of the

:59:55. > :59:59.Prime Minister's renegotiation and the wider issues at stake should be

:00:00. > :00:02.whether the interests of the British people we represent, their security

:00:03. > :00:06.and prosperity and hopes and ambitions for their children are

:00:07. > :00:10.better served by remaining in a European Union, a union I hope

:00:11. > :00:16.successfully reformed but which will still not be perfect, or leaving and

:00:17. > :00:26.then attempting, from a new start from the outside, de nouveau, to

:00:27. > :00:31.secure some kind of arrangement with those countries. That is the context

:00:32. > :00:35.we can address some of the specific issues raised in this debate. If we

:00:36. > :00:41.just take trade, because a number of honourable members have mentioned

:00:42. > :00:45.that, outside the European Union, we would have been theoretical freedom

:00:46. > :00:50.to negotiate free-trade agreements on our own behalf, but it is not

:00:51. > :00:54.just a matter of speculation, it is what leading trading nations around

:00:55. > :01:00.the world say to us, that they are much more ready to negotiate trade

:01:01. > :01:04.deals with a European market of 500 million people with all the

:01:05. > :01:09.leveraged that that gives us as a player in that single market than

:01:10. > :01:14.they would be to negotiate with even a large European country on its own.

:01:15. > :01:20.I apologise to my honourable friend but time is very limited. The

:01:21. > :01:24.reality is that the World Trade Organisation and other international

:01:25. > :01:28.organisations are largely directed by blocks of countries and by the

:01:29. > :01:34.very large nations such as China and the United States. I believe the

:01:35. > :01:39.interest is of the British people are better served not simply by

:01:40. > :01:44.having a different flag and nameplate on the table but by

:01:45. > :01:47.working to play a leading role in shaping the position of the world's

:01:48. > :01:52.biggest and wealthiest trading block, using its leveraged to

:01:53. > :01:54.advance our national interests and winning new opportunities for both

:01:55. > :02:00.businesses and consumers in this country. And I am disappointed by

:02:01. > :02:05.the pessimism of some honourable members. Look at what we have

:02:06. > :02:08.achieved through positive British action at European level. It was

:02:09. > :02:14.Margaret Thatcher who built the single European market that has made

:02:15. > :02:19.possible, for example, affordable aviation to ordinary British

:02:20. > :02:25.families in every part of this country. It was Margaret Thatcher

:02:26. > :02:28.and John Major and Labour's Prime Minister 's too who made possible

:02:29. > :02:32.the entrenchment of democracy, the rule of law and human rights in

:02:33. > :02:35.countries of Central Europe where those things were crushed for most

:02:36. > :02:41.of the 20th century and we did that by support for the large project. In

:02:42. > :02:45.view now of the work the Home Secretary is leading to strengthen

:02:46. > :02:50.cooperation against terrorism and organised crime, that is doing more

:02:51. > :02:54.to help our security and defend the safety of the British people than

:02:55. > :02:58.unilateral action by ourselves would be able to achieve. So I want to see

:02:59. > :03:05.us in a reformed European Union in the single market playing a leading

:03:06. > :03:09.role in making a safer and more prosperous Britain and a safer and

:03:10. > :03:14.more prosperous Europe in the things that matter to us and benefit as out

:03:15. > :03:19.of ever closer political union, out of the Euro European army and

:03:20. > :03:22.Schengen, there is a real prize we have available to us and that is why

:03:23. > :03:28.I'm supporting so enthusiastically the work that the Prime Minister in

:03:29. > :03:31.this country's Prime Minister, is doing physical or that future for

:03:32. > :03:36.the United Kingdom, a successful and reformed European Union. The

:03:37. > :03:39.honourable gentleman has a couple of minutes in which to wind up the

:03:40. > :03:46.debate. Mr Speaker, many thanks for remaining with us during the course

:03:47. > :03:49.of this debate. I suggest we approach a seminal point, Mr

:03:50. > :03:54.Speaker, in our history. In choosing whether or not to remain inside the

:03:55. > :04:04.EU and continue down this road of ever closer union at the expense of

:04:05. > :04:11.our sovereignty ought to vote to remain in or out of the EU and

:04:12. > :04:15.regain the ability to have our say on our borders and the extent of

:04:16. > :04:20.business regulation. The fact that number ten seems to be talking now

:04:21. > :04:26.about eight sovereignty bill, I think that clearly illustrates that

:04:27. > :04:29.the Government's so-called red class system or watered down if you like

:04:30. > :04:40.washed-up lottery ticket and the emergency brake, controlled by an EU

:04:41. > :04:45.backed -- back-seat driver, is unravelling as we speak. Such

:04:46. > :04:50.measures will not stop us actually being drawn into ever close union

:04:51. > :04:54.with the EU, should we remain, and certainly will not restore our

:04:55. > :05:01.Parliamentary sovereignty. British people want to be represented by

:05:02. > :05:10.their MPs, not gobbled up by the EU. Sovereignty is ours to cherish, not

:05:11. > :05:13.to sacrifice. I'm afraid, Minister, the Government has been unable to

:05:14. > :05:18.answer our questions and therefore, Mr Speaker, I intend pressing the

:05:19. > :05:21.motion, a motion which clearly says that the Government's EU

:05:22. > :05:25.renegotiations must encompass Parliament's ability to stop any

:05:26. > :05:27.unwanted legislation taxes or regulation to press that motion to a

:05:28. > :05:36.vote. Ight honourable gentleman

:05:37. > :05:42.tuberculosis Oared, the question is as on the order paper, as many say

:05:43. > :05:49.aye. On the contrary, no. No! No! No! I think that the a

:05:50. > :08:34.yeshgs s have it. Division in the lobby!

:08:35. > :08:49.The question is on the order paper. The no, sir have it.

:08:50. > :08:56.-- the nos have it. I have called the result! Dear, oh,

:08:57. > :09:18.dear. There were no tellers. Division off! Sorry.

:09:19. > :09:26.Honourable members were locked in a room. Good heavens. I was ready to

:09:27. > :09:31.sit in for the division. But a division must take place in an

:09:32. > :09:36.orderly way or not at all. Order.

:09:37. > :09:39.The junior minister is engaged in a spirited discussion with the

:09:40. > :09:45.honourable gentleman. But we are to move to the debate. The minister may

:09:46. > :09:52.care to per ambulate towards the Treasury bench from where he will in

:09:53. > :10:00.due course speak. I am providing useful choreography, with which a

:10:01. > :10:09.nod of the head he can confirm if he is appreciative.

:10:10. > :10:11.We now come to the back bench debate entitled: Conflict in Yemen. Kirsty

:10:12. > :10:17.Oswald. . I beg to move that the House

:10:18. > :10:23.considered conflict in Yemen. I am pleased to have secured the debate,

:10:24. > :10:31.and I am grateful to them to allow the debate to take place. As we meet

:10:32. > :10:36.we do so against a background of continuing conflict and death.

:10:37. > :10:43.Recently a cement factory in the city of am ran. This resulted in

:10:44. > :10:46.death, including inside cars parked nearby, shopkeepers and residents

:10:47. > :10:51.going about their daily business it is a pressing issue. The

:10:52. > :10:55.humanitarian situation in Yemen is dreadful and getting worse. Recent

:10:56. > :11:01.estimates by the United Nations suggest that over 8,000 people have

:11:02. > :11:04.been killed in Yemen since March. At least 1,500 children are reported to

:11:05. > :11:09.have died. The civilian infrastructure has been destroyed by

:11:10. > :11:14.air strikes and fighting on the ground, cutting families off from

:11:15. > :11:18.services, including clean water, sanitation and medical treatment. My

:11:19. > :11:22.colleague has raised in the House, the incident in which a Medecins

:11:23. > :11:28.Sans Frontieres hospital in sadya, in Yemen, was hit by missile. The

:11:29. > :11:32.third to come under attack in recent months. People are dying there from

:11:33. > :11:36.what should be preventible diseases as there are no hospital, medical

:11:37. > :11:40.supplies or infrastructure to prevent this. With the hospitals

:11:41. > :11:45.being reduced to rubble, thousands of children are at risk of

:11:46. > :11:50.malnutrition, Save the Children reported a 150% increase in cases of

:11:51. > :11:56.severe, acute malnutrition amongst children. Some of their facilities,

:11:57. > :12:00.which should be safe havens have also been destroyed. It is no

:12:01. > :12:04.surprise to see Medecins Sans Frontieres declare that the conflict

:12:05. > :12:08.in Yemen has been played out with total disregard for the rules of

:12:09. > :12:13.war. The UK Government has been aware of the evidence of mounting

:12:14. > :12:20.deaths and the destruction of civilian infrastructure. Am nest

:12:21. > :12:27.international raised concerns of air strikes, targeting heavily populated

:12:28. > :12:31.civilian areas. This institutes a violation of international law. The

:12:32. > :12:38.number of civilians dying are stark. According to the UN, 73% of child

:12:39. > :12:42.deaths and injuries in the second quarter of 2015, were attributable

:12:43. > :12:49.to air strikes by the Saudi led coalition. 60% of all deaths and

:12:50. > :12:54.injuries, arib constituted to air launch devices. And an increasing

:12:55. > :12:58.number of children are pressed into military services. Placed in

:12:59. > :13:02.increasingly dangerous and vulnerable situations. Over 3

:13:03. > :13:07.million children are now out of school. Education has fallen by the

:13:08. > :13:10.wayside. Setting the children of Yemen up to be another lost

:13:11. > :13:16.generation with significant long-term consequences for the

:13:17. > :13:20.country and the region. So, more than 21.2 million people in

:13:21. > :13:25.Yemen, including 10 million children, are now in need of

:13:26. > :13:30.humanitarian need. This figure gives Yemen the distinction of being the

:13:31. > :13:38.country with the highest number of people in human an tearian need in

:13:39. > :13:42.the world. Yemen relies on imported food, so the blockade has had an

:13:43. > :13:49.extremely damaging impact. There is a high level of food insecurity and

:13:50. > :13:55.according to the UN, 14.4 million people of Yemen are in the

:13:56. > :14:01.situation. That means that one in two people are not getting enough to

:14:02. > :14:08.eat. One distressing conflict is the reemergence of the siege as a weapon

:14:09. > :14:13.of war. When I raised the issue in context to Syria, I was pleased to

:14:14. > :14:16.hear that the imposition of starvation and deliberate

:14:17. > :14:20.destruction of daily lives for the civilians may be a matter for the

:14:21. > :14:28.International Criminal Court. This must be stopped it is important that

:14:29. > :14:33.support is given, for people to enter the country and safely

:14:34. > :14:38.distribute needs to the population. Parties to the conflict must be

:14:39. > :14:43.pressed to allow this access. Unless we address the issue, we

:14:44. > :14:49.should not be surprised to see outflows of refugees from countries

:14:50. > :14:54.bombed back into the dark ages. Such an Jowell is what die etch earn is

:14:55. > :14:58.working towards. Those claiming the status of legitimate government

:14:59. > :15:01.should not continue to act like medieval warlords and expect the

:15:02. > :15:07.backing of the international community it is important to

:15:08. > :15:11.acknowledge the brave and tireless work of NGOs working in the area,

:15:12. > :15:17.despite the danger that they face in this volatile situation. The conduct

:15:18. > :15:21.of the war leaves NGOs in the position of putting workers into the

:15:22. > :15:26.peril, raising questions as to how long they could be continued to be

:15:27. > :15:28.prepared to do so and the consequences for the Yemeni

:15:29. > :15:32.civilians if they decide they cannot continue. So the UK Government must

:15:33. > :15:36.listen to the organisations and look at the evidence. Acknowledge what is

:15:37. > :15:42.happening here and the scale of the issue. It is vital that they put

:15:43. > :15:48.pressure on all parties. Allow the humanitarian agencies a

:15:49. > :15:52.safe space to operate in. Also, it welcome the role for the UK

:15:53. > :15:56.department of international development in supporting the Yemeni

:15:57. > :16:03.population. Their response has been flexible and responsive and appears

:16:04. > :16:08.to provide a way forward, were it not for the astonishing mismatch

:16:09. > :16:11.between their welcome work and the UK Government's dealing with the

:16:12. > :16:16.Saudi Arabia, which impact on the life of the #350e78 of Yemen and the

:16:17. > :16:19.prospects for the country. World attention on difficulties in the

:16:20. > :16:24.Middle East is focussed on the conflicts of Syria and Iraq. Sadly,

:16:25. > :16:31.the catastrophic situation in Yemen is often overlooked. Yemen's status

:16:32. > :16:35.is only a minor oil producer, not a member of OPEC, making the question

:16:36. > :16:40.less likely to feature on the western news radar. Red Cross

:16:41. > :16:45.describes Yemen as a world's forgotten conflict zone. With the

:16:46. > :16:50.world looking elsewhere, while economic power plays in the Middle

:16:51. > :16:55.East cause chaos and destruction. But the UK cannot continue to sit on

:16:56. > :16:59.the fence. It must accept that the foreign policy then would be morally

:17:00. > :17:04.brunt and the action and lack of action is knowing and deliberate.

:17:05. > :17:09.Yemen is facing one of the worst of the humanitarian crisis in the

:17:10. > :17:13.world. Meanwhile, the daily and the use of explosive weapons in

:17:14. > :17:21.populated areas continues, raining death on the civilian population.

:17:22. > :17:26.Many of these civilians have been killed by air strikes conducted by

:17:27. > :17:32.the Saudi Arabia Air Force using British-built planes with pilots

:17:33. > :17:37.trained by British instructors including as RAF Lossiemouth in

:17:38. > :17:41.Scotland, dropping British-made bombs, with operations conducted and

:17:42. > :17:44.co-ordinated by Saudi Arabia in the presence of British military

:17:45. > :17:47.advisers. The UK Government's own figures from the department of

:17:48. > :17:54.business, invasion and skills show in the third quarter of last year,

:17:55. > :17:59.the UK granted over ?1 billion of arms export licences for Saudi

:18:00. > :18:10.Arabia, despite evidence of human rights violations committed by the

:18:11. > :18:13.Saudi led... Will my honourable friend agree that if there are

:18:14. > :18:20.breaches that this is seeing that the UK Government should

:18:21. > :18:24.investigate? I agree. I thank you for the intervention.

:18:25. > :18:28.It is clear to me that through the substabile support for Saudi Arabia,

:18:29. > :18:32.the UK Government is exacerbating the desperate plight of the people

:18:33. > :18:38.of Yemen. Since the conflict reignited in March there are reports

:18:39. > :18:43.of serious violations of the laws of war on all sides. Human Rights Watch

:18:44. > :18:49.has documented a number of INAUDIBLE

:18:50. > :18:53.In all of the cases, INAUDIBLE

:18:54. > :18:57.It was considered that the attack failed to distinguish civilians from

:18:58. > :19:03.the military objective, so questions to be answered around the UK

:19:04. > :19:07.supplying weapons to Saudi Arabia in support of its military intervention

:19:08. > :19:13.and the bombing campaign of Yemen. It is important to take stock, as

:19:14. > :19:19.not only Yemen but across the region, the UK has a history of

:19:20. > :19:21.subupgating the interests of the population in the region to being

:19:22. > :19:25.bit-players with our powers and bit-players with our powers and

:19:26. > :19:30.while having significant relationships with the rulers in the

:19:31. > :19:34.region, the UK is perhaps unsurprisingly mistrusted for its

:19:35. > :19:40.failure to deliver on promises. As was said that the wave of Arabic

:19:41. > :19:44.output rising from 2011 is this generation's attempt of changing the

:19:45. > :19:47.consequences of the state order that began in the aftermath of the First

:19:48. > :19:52.World War. An interesting speech.

:19:53. > :19:55.I think that the World Food Programme made the point that both

:19:56. > :19:57.sides in the conflict are impeding the distribution of food aid to the

:19:58. > :20:08.millions that need it, not just one. It is an important point, we need to

:20:09. > :20:13.make sure that everybody engaged in the region operates together to make

:20:14. > :20:18.sure that people get the food and support they need. This new

:20:19. > :20:24.generation in Yemen are searching for a better future. They have been

:20:25. > :20:28.abandoned to conflict, influenced by others, none of whom have the needs

:20:29. > :20:33.of the people in mind. The minister said last week that Saudi Arabia

:20:34. > :20:38.should do a better job of trumpeting its human rights successors. What an

:20:39. > :20:42.astonishing statement. We can safely issue that the civilians in Yemen

:20:43. > :20:46.suffering as a result of this onslaught will feel they have no

:20:47. > :20:50.human rights whatsoever. Human rights and those of the people of

:20:51. > :20:55.Yemen did not loom large in relation to that statement. But they must.

:20:56. > :20:59.The UK Government must admit it has been front and centre of the Saudi

:21:00. > :21:01.bombing campaign in Yemen and they are putting profit before basic

:21:02. > :21:12.human rights. I agree, she is making a powerful

:21:13. > :21:17.and pertinent speech, but I ask her to be cautious in what she says

:21:18. > :21:21.about quoting from the independent, that coos's that used Google

:21:22. > :21:26.translate to translate a press release, a statement that was made,

:21:27. > :21:30.which did not accurately present the meeting I had in Saudi Arabia. I

:21:31. > :21:33.made the point last week in the urgent question and I repeated again

:21:34. > :21:40.today, I would never use such language. I make it clear that Saudi

:21:41. > :21:45.Arabia has a long way to go, we want to work with them to improve their

:21:46. > :21:49.human rights. I echo the sentiments that there is a significant way to

:21:50. > :21:54.go in relation to human rights, which is of great concern. I was in

:21:55. > :21:59.the chamber last week I am pleased I can recall the sentiment if not the

:22:00. > :22:02.words of what he said. I will be interested to look back at the

:22:03. > :22:08.discussion, because the sentiment was clear. The UK Government must

:22:09. > :22:12.consider the situation in Yemen fully, it is no doubt a challenging

:22:13. > :22:16.situation, but this does not mean we should disregard the evidence coming

:22:17. > :22:23.from the area or the realities and scale of the problem. A panel of

:22:24. > :22:25.experts has documented 119 coalition sorties ready to violations of

:22:26. > :22:30.international law, including the targeting of civilians. It is

:22:31. > :22:33.notable the international of element committee of this house has noted

:22:34. > :22:36.that whilst the report was leaked, it did not consider that this

:22:37. > :22:43.affected the credibility of what it was asserting. I ask the Minister...

:22:44. > :22:47.Would she not agree with the representative of Unicef who

:22:48. > :22:52.appeared before the committee who said, I don't believe there is

:22:53. > :22:58.deliberate targeting of civilians? It is important that we hear from as

:22:59. > :23:02.many organisations as possible. In the research I have conducted, there

:23:03. > :23:06.have been many organisations who assert that there has been targeting

:23:07. > :23:10.of civilians, which gives us all the more reason to have a proper

:23:11. > :23:15.investigation into the situation. I must ask the Minister he can tell me

:23:16. > :23:21.if he doubts the credibility of the panel of experts and if so, why. As

:23:22. > :23:25.for other parts of the region, we must facilitate and support the

:23:26. > :23:28.peace process. We should be encouraged that parties have

:23:29. > :23:31.previously indicated they may come to the table, but it is disappointed

:23:32. > :23:38.because have been delayed. One issue which we need to address, and this

:23:39. > :23:40.can only come with good first-hand information, just how much control

:23:41. > :23:47.those who claim leadership exercise over the myriad groups in conflict.

:23:48. > :23:51.The leaders of Al-Qaeda and ices have no interest in peace, we must

:23:52. > :23:55.not let them scupper every peace effort by destroying a tense to

:23:56. > :24:01.bring about ceasefire. We know that across Yemen Chaos reigns, disparate

:24:02. > :24:09.forces and agendas clash and bombs rained down from the air. Destroying

:24:10. > :24:14.infrastructure, homes and lives. Would she accept that the conflict

:24:15. > :24:22.in Yemen is over spilling over the borders from Yemen and out with?

:24:23. > :24:26.Conflict in any area is a cause for concern. We must focus on this

:24:27. > :24:29.conflict in this debate and where the responsibilities of the UK

:24:30. > :24:36.Government life. It is inconsistent of the UK Government to sell weapons

:24:37. > :24:41.to be used to bomb the country does spare the reins. The Minister and

:24:42. > :24:46.the UK Government needs to come clean on the specific involvement of

:24:47. > :24:51.the UK military in arms sales, training and logistics in relation

:24:52. > :24:55.to Saudi Arabia in Yemen. I don't think the conflict by proxy is the

:24:56. > :24:58.party of the party opposite, but the way things are working, it is

:24:59. > :25:03.difficult to see how that is not the case. The Belgian Government has

:25:04. > :25:07.felt able to suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia, but we continue to

:25:08. > :25:14.ignore the human rights issues and in relation to Yemen and sell arms.

:25:15. > :25:17.The export controls committee delayed in setting up has had an

:25:18. > :25:22.influence. This should have been established months ago. The

:25:23. > :25:26.continued pressure from the onward member has no doubt highlighted the

:25:27. > :25:32.situation. I would ask the Minister, what cost has the delay made for

:25:33. > :25:35.human life? I agree with the chair of the international of element

:25:36. > :25:41.committee in his letter that it is a long-standing crucible of the rule

:25:42. > :25:45.of law. It is disappointing that the UK Government did not take the

:25:46. > :25:48.opportunity last September to endorse the Government of the

:25:49. > :25:51.Netherlands' proposal for an international fact-finding mission

:25:52. > :25:54.to investigate the conduct of war. This would have provided the

:25:55. > :26:01.information that the Minister seeks. He said weapon systems -- if weapon

:26:02. > :26:06.systems were abused, there would be action in terms of export licensing.

:26:07. > :26:11.It is time now for the UK Government to stop running away from scrutiny,

:26:12. > :26:14.to take urgent action to suspend all sales of arms to Saudi Arabia until

:26:15. > :26:18.it can demonstrate they are not being used against civilians and not

:26:19. > :26:23.in violation of international law. The UK must alleviate this crisis

:26:24. > :26:28.and we must do more to ensure there is access to areas where people are

:26:29. > :26:32.besieged and starving, and every effort must be made to get the peace

:26:33. > :26:38.talks started. We cannot stand by longer. It is time for the UK

:26:39. > :26:48.Government to step up and do the right thing. The question is as on

:26:49. > :26:53.the order paper. I congratulate, although I don't agree with every

:26:54. > :26:57.word, the Honourable member on her securing this very important debate.

:26:58. > :27:02.On the question of scrutiny, I believe the British Government is

:27:03. > :27:07.more than open to being scrutinised, as the presence of this Minister on

:27:08. > :27:13.the Marisa occasions in this house answering questions and debate about

:27:14. > :27:18.Yemen is testament to. It is with some sadness that I speak today. The

:27:19. > :27:23.country is close to my heart. It is suffering the horrors of conflict,

:27:24. > :27:28.as so eloquently set out. The current war has been described as

:27:29. > :27:34.the forgotten war. In a recent debate by the Honourable member for

:27:35. > :27:39.Hammersmith. I agree with him on a few things, but I agree with him on

:27:40. > :27:45.that. It remains the forgotten war today. Despite the work of many NGOs

:27:46. > :27:49.and members of this house. And particularly the work of the right

:27:50. > :27:51.Honourable gentleman the member for Leicester East for all he has done

:27:52. > :27:58.to ensure this has remained cut isn't of what is happening.

:27:59. > :28:01.Although, he and others have sought to highlight the joys of that

:28:02. > :28:04.country and why it is such a wonderful country are something I

:28:05. > :28:10.know is also very close to the heart of my honourable friend who knows

:28:11. > :28:15.the country very well. As well as being vice-chairman of the Yemen

:28:16. > :28:18.all-party parliament group, I have had the pleasure and privilege of

:28:19. > :28:28.visiting and travelling around Yemen on a number of occasions. And seeing

:28:29. > :28:31.such wonderful places. My visits, I fear, will not be repeated for some

:28:32. > :28:35.years yet, but they gave me an insight into this complexity and

:28:36. > :28:42.land and its generous, hospitable and loyal people. I am proud to

:28:43. > :28:50.declare myself a friend of Yemen and the people of Yemen. The UK has a

:28:51. > :28:54.long-standing friendship and historic and trusting relationship

:28:55. > :29:01.with Yemen. All of which makes it sad to see what has become of that

:29:02. > :29:05.country. The former president of Yemen described role in the country

:29:06. > :29:09.as akin to dancing on the heads of snakes, so complex are its history,

:29:10. > :29:15.religious, tribal and political make-up. Yemen faces many

:29:16. > :29:19.challenges, it is the most populous country in the Arabian plenty left,

:29:20. > :29:23.copulation of almost 30 million, but it is also one of the poorest,

:29:24. > :29:29.annual income per head of less than $1500. It does not have the

:29:30. > :29:34.advantage, although possibly these days they'd initially advantage, of

:29:35. > :29:38.oil revenues to swell its coffers. It has historically relied heavily

:29:39. > :29:44.on imports of food goods and diesel fuel to function. All of this

:29:45. > :29:49.compounded by the challenges of a burgeoning young male population

:29:50. > :29:54.with limited economic prospects. Overlay this with a fragile security

:29:55. > :29:59.situation and a fractured policy, even before the current conflict,

:30:00. > :30:03.Yemen was always in a precarious situation. It has always been more

:30:04. > :30:10.of a loose confederation of tribes than a model state with strong

:30:11. > :30:16.central control. Its location has seen it for centuries the centre of

:30:17. > :30:19.proxy wars waged by other powers. Today, it finds itself in that

:30:20. > :30:26.situation again, with and Iranians backed militia fighting a Saudi led

:30:27. > :30:31.coalition supporting a Government of the president, with regional and

:30:32. > :30:39.dynastic geopolitics playing their part in the conflict. The conflict

:30:40. > :30:43.and its consequences are clear and stock, and I would reiterate a view

:30:44. > :30:46.of the comments made by the Honourable Lady, over 20 million

:30:47. > :30:54.people at risk of starvation and humanitarian disaster. 82% in need

:30:55. > :30:58.of some assistance. In any conflict situation, it is often the children

:30:59. > :31:04.who are the most innocent but also the most likely victims of that

:31:05. > :31:09.conflict. In seeking to play our part in helping in this conflict, I

:31:10. > :31:18.see three major component parts. The most immediate is humanitarian

:31:19. > :31:23.relief. As the Oxfam witness said, at a recent hearing, the support has

:31:24. > :31:30.been really profound and fundamental. UK aid already totals

:31:31. > :31:34.over ?85 million. Its scale only constrained by the situation on the

:31:35. > :31:40.ground and the ability to do is to beat it safely. The UK's

:31:41. > :31:45.contribution in respect of aid is, I believe, not in doubt, I hope the

:31:46. > :31:49.Minister will convey to his counterparts the expressions of

:31:50. > :31:56.support both for myself and the Honourable Lady for the work that

:31:57. > :32:02.they have done. But I sincerely hope it will continue to be built upon,

:32:03. > :32:06.building an international coalition of aid givers, and as we look across

:32:07. > :32:12.Parliament Square today and we see the focus on the situation in Syria,

:32:13. > :32:19.we put in all the effort we can to ensure that the situation in Yemen

:32:20. > :32:22.receive the same priority. Beyond food and medicine, getting fuel and

:32:23. > :32:27.water in remains one of the biggest challenges, with ports barely

:32:28. > :32:30.functioning, and when they do, ships waiting offshore for weeks,

:32:31. > :32:34.sometimes before being able to unload. For a country that was

:32:35. > :32:41.already reliant on imports for its food and fuel, this is a disaster.

:32:42. > :32:44.Getting supplies in and around is vital, and I hope that in his

:32:45. > :32:49.remarks later the minister can update the house on where he

:32:50. > :32:55.believes we are with that work. While the humanitarian response and

:32:56. > :32:59.UK's continued role is vital, this is to a large degree tackling the

:33:00. > :33:06.consequences rather than the causes of the problem. We must strive to do

:33:07. > :33:11.both. The Minister has rightly made clear in statements in front of the

:33:12. > :33:15.committee the UK is not a party to this conflict. He is right. The UK

:33:16. > :33:20.is not an active participant in the coalition, although we do support

:33:21. > :33:33.it, is rejecting the support for the legitimate Government of Yemen. We

:33:34. > :33:38.must make it clear that it is not helpful to focus only on one party

:33:39. > :33:43.to this conflict as being responsible for the consequences of

:33:44. > :33:45.that conflict, the civilian casualties. Both sides bear a

:33:46. > :33:52.response ability for the consequences of this conflict.

:33:53. > :34:02.Would he also said that part of this is the fact that there is a UN

:34:03. > :34:10.resolution that the coalition states involved are seeking to enforce? He

:34:11. > :34:18.is right and displays his typical erudition and eloquence on this

:34:19. > :34:22.topic, as on so many others. It is vital that renewed impetus is given

:34:23. > :34:26.to peace talks to find a lasting settlement to bring stability to the

:34:27. > :34:32.country. I pay tribute both to my right honourable friend and to this

:34:33. > :34:37.Minister for their work on this, and I do have to say, as I alluded to

:34:38. > :34:42.earlier, Yemen could have in the British Government no greater friend

:34:43. > :34:45.than this Minister, who cares passionately and personally for the

:34:46. > :34:48.plight of the people of Yemen and is working day and night to do what he

:34:49. > :34:51.can to alleviate that plight and bring peace to that country.

:34:52. > :34:55.Ing the distribution of food aid to the millions that need it, not just

:34:56. > :34:59.one. A peace set thement imposed from

:35:00. > :35:04.outside, and does not recognise or heed voices in Yemen is doomed to

:35:05. > :35:08.fail. In the UK we can play a significant role in bringing sides

:35:09. > :35:12.together but any settlement, in order to bring lasting peace, must

:35:13. > :35:18.emerge from within Yemen itself. I am reminded of what I believe is an

:35:19. > :35:24.old Arab proverb, me and my brother against my cousin but me and my

:35:25. > :35:28.cousin against a stranger - peace must come from within the country

:35:29. > :35:34.itself. The final element in the long-term,

:35:35. > :35:38.must be support in a clear commitment in a prolonged period to

:35:39. > :35:44.rebuild the shattered country and its infrastructure, primarily fuel

:35:45. > :35:51.and water infrastructure. I would before condeluding, turn brief to --

:35:52. > :35:56.concluding, turn briefly to the need for any suspected or reported abuse

:35:57. > :36:01.of human rights or civilian casualties to be investigated. The

:36:02. > :36:07.minister has been clear on this fact that where allegations are made of

:36:08. > :36:11.civilian casualties or the consequences of the actions, he and

:36:12. > :36:13.others have raised those with the Saudi Arabian government as

:36:14. > :36:18.appropriate. I would also say that I do believe

:36:19. > :36:24.that what was agreed in September at the Human Rights Council, by all of

:36:25. > :36:29.those there, represents the right way forward, namely that the High

:36:30. > :36:34.Commissioner for human rights, working with the legitimate

:36:35. > :36:38.government for Yemen, important in terms of access, which will

:36:39. > :36:44.investigate any appropriate allegations. That is due in March.

:36:45. > :36:48.That agreement was built on a consensus, to represent a right way

:36:49. > :36:55.forward it is confusing through the fog of war, I belief that the title

:36:56. > :37:02.of a well-read piece of research by my honourable friend in respect of

:37:03. > :37:08.the legal challenges -- challenges faced by the armed force, and what

:37:09. > :37:14.was highlighted was competing versions of events and what actually

:37:15. > :37:20.happened, therefore I recommend the House to support what was agreed in

:37:21. > :37:25.the #r0r7 report in September. So, in concluding, I would say that it

:37:26. > :37:29.is time, as the honourable lady said, that the international

:37:30. > :37:34.community gave the crisis and the conflict in Yemen the focus and the

:37:35. > :37:37.priority it deserves, rightly, as we do with that in Syria. I know that

:37:38. > :37:42.the British government is doing its bit. I hope that the debate helps to

:37:43. > :37:46.raise the professional of the forgotten war and that peace is soon

:37:47. > :37:50.a reality for all of the people of that suffering country. Thank you,

:37:51. > :37:55.Madame Deputy Speaker. It will be obvious to the House we

:37:56. > :38:01.have little time for the debate and many of you wish to speak. I would

:38:02. > :38:04.like to try without a formal time limit, if people could possibly keep

:38:05. > :38:10.to five or six minute, then all will be able to get in. If not, we will

:38:11. > :38:14.have a time limit of three or two minute, whatever is necessary later

:38:15. > :38:18.in the debate. Mr Keith Vaz.

:38:19. > :38:25.Thank you, Madame Deputy Speaker it is a great pleasure to follow the

:38:26. > :38:33.Honourable Member for Charnwood. We share a border and now a cause. It

:38:34. > :38:38.is good to see someone elected only last year, becoming passionate about

:38:39. > :38:47.an overseas country and so interested in it. I am glad to see

:38:48. > :38:51.this member as a strong and effective officer, vice-chair awl of

:38:52. > :38:56.the Yemeni group. I speak not just as a Yemeni by birth but as the

:38:57. > :39:02.chair of the All Party group of the last 20 years. I must rival

:39:03. > :39:07.President Salah with the years spent in office, not a good comparison, I

:39:08. > :39:14.know. But it has been a huge honour to serve in that capacity. And to be

:39:15. > :39:20.joined by the honourable lady for Walsall South, and the honourable

:39:21. > :39:24.lady for Portsmouth south, another Yemeni, we now have three Yemenis

:39:25. > :39:28.sitting in the House of Commons. This should help everyone understand

:39:29. > :39:34.for us it is not just business it is very personal it matters greatly. My

:39:35. > :39:39.fondest memories of my childhood were watching the boats coming in,

:39:40. > :39:44.to enter the Suez Canal, going past Steamer Point. And indeed, only

:39:45. > :39:51.Leicester beating Liverpool last Tuesday could match that kind of

:39:52. > :39:58.warm feeling that I felt as a child. But, sadly, those wonderful memories

:39:59. > :40:05.of our childhood have gone. We face in Yemen this catastrophe. This

:40:06. > :40:11.roll-call of catastrophe. Set out so eloquently by the honourable lady

:40:12. > :40:15.for East Renfrewshire and the honourable gentleman for Charnwood

:40:16. > :40:18.and the chairman of the international dwoement select

:40:19. > :40:23.committee will speak with more horrifying statistics to hear and

:40:24. > :40:28.listen to, and we cannot understand 21 million people in need of aid.

:40:29. > :40:34.Millions of children without food. People starving to death. We hear it

:40:35. > :40:42.as if it is a piece of fiction but it is fact, Madame Deputy Speaker. I

:40:43. > :40:50.want to also thank the honourable member for East Worthing and

:40:51. > :40:54.shoreham. Who came with me on one of the last-all Group Party visits to

:40:55. > :41:01.Yemen. We were worried, he was told to stay in the hotel and as anyone

:41:02. > :41:07.knows, especially, Prime Ministers and Secretary of States, as he

:41:08. > :41:11.served in the government, you cannot tell this ehonourable member what to

:41:12. > :41:18.do. I got up and found he was missing. We thought that he had been

:41:19. > :41:22.kidnapped but he was out, taking photographs of the country. He fell

:41:23. > :41:26.in love with that country, as everyone falls in love with Yemen

:41:27. > :41:30.when they visit. But what is this country that we have now? We have

:41:31. > :41:35.this country in poverty. We have this country that is facing the

:41:36. > :41:41.possibility of a Civil War. We have a country which is being fought over

:41:42. > :41:47.by other foreign powers. This is not because the people of Yemen want to

:41:48. > :41:52.see this conflict. This conflict arises because those from outside

:41:53. > :41:55.want to topple the democraticallially elected

:41:56. > :41:58.government of President Hadi. Because of this, you have outside

:41:59. > :42:05.intervention. I have to say, I will give way... I

:42:06. > :42:09.am touched by the care he shows for my welfare but it was indeed an

:42:10. > :42:13.extraordinary trip we made to that country. During that trip, talking

:42:14. > :42:16.about children, it was at the time that the British Council were

:42:17. > :42:21.matches 1,000 schools in the Middle East with schools here and we were

:42:22. > :42:27.able to twin a school in worthing with a decide in Aden. Does he agree

:42:28. > :42:32.one of the biggest tragedies, as well as the killings and the

:42:33. > :42:35.injuries is that about half of the children in Yemen are not in

:42:36. > :42:39.education. When so much is being done to make sure that Syrian

:42:40. > :42:44.children have some continuity of education, the situation in Yemen is

:42:45. > :42:48.so much worse. If we don't have the future in mind for those children,

:42:49. > :42:53.the future of the whole country is perilous.

:42:54. > :42:57.The honourable gentleman is right. He is the House's expert on

:42:58. > :43:03.education. When he talks of the need for education, he is absolutely

:43:04. > :43:07.right. These are life chances. 1,500 have died but 9. 9 million are in

:43:08. > :43:11.poverty. The fact that they cannot go to school will mean for the rest

:43:12. > :43:15.of their lives. Childhood is something that passes so quickly.

:43:16. > :43:24.They will not have the advantages of education. We do need to concentrate

:43:25. > :43:29.on that. But I join with the honourable member from Charnwood, in

:43:30. > :43:33.praising the ministers, and we don't do this often but he is someone who

:43:34. > :43:43.deeply cares about the situation in Yemen. Whenever approached, whenever

:43:44. > :43:48.the All Party group makes suggestions and whenever he makes

:43:49. > :43:56.suggestions, the minister responds. I think if he had half a chance to

:43:57. > :44:00.be honour a plane via Dubai to Sana'a International Airport, to try

:44:01. > :44:03.to stitch together the patchwork that exists in terms of

:44:04. > :44:10.international diplomacy, I know a lot of mention has been made, and

:44:11. > :44:13.rightly so by the honourable lady for East Renfrewshire, and other

:44:14. > :44:18.members of her party about the involvement of Saudi Arabia. It is

:44:19. > :44:25.important that Saudi Arabia has been involved. Had they not been, the

:44:26. > :44:30.country would have been overrun and President Hadi been taken over. But

:44:31. > :44:35.we need to pause. There has to be a ceasefire. The air strikes have to

:44:36. > :44:39.stop. We have to find other methods of trying to secure the country

:44:40. > :44:45.without the kinds of screens that we have seen where civilians may not

:44:46. > :44:49.have been targeted but at the end process, that they have died. So we

:44:50. > :44:54.have to make sure that we work with the Saudis. They are the regional

:44:55. > :44:59.power. We cannot do it without them. To make sure that we get peace in

:45:00. > :45:03.Yemen we need them. They have a big responsibility to ensure it happens.

:45:04. > :45:08.If Yemen falls it will affect every other country in the Middle East and

:45:09. > :45:11.as the Prime Minister has said on numerous occasions, the front line

:45:12. > :45:17.in Sana'a is the front line in London. Many of the terrorist plots

:45:18. > :45:20.we have seen developing, that I see chairing the Home Affairs Select

:45:21. > :45:27.Committee, come from people plotting in places like Yemen and trying to

:45:28. > :45:32.destroy other countries because of what they do there. Indeed, the

:45:33. > :45:36.Paris bombers, many were involved in some way in what was happening in

:45:37. > :45:41.Yemen. I think that one of them was trained there. This is not about a

:45:42. > :45:48.country far away that we don't need to care about, it is a country that

:45:49. > :45:52.matters to our future, not just as a humanairian crisis but as it is owe

:45:53. > :45:59.curing and how it will affect Britain and the rest of Europe. I

:46:00. > :46:05.want to thank the minister and the right honourable member for New

:46:06. > :46:09.West, for what he has said. What has been continued is what was

:46:10. > :46:16.started by the previous government. There is no party politics in this,

:46:17. > :46:19.this is the House United. As the previous Prime Ministers, both

:46:20. > :46:22.Gordon Brown and Tony Blair, in ensuring that they focussed on Yemen

:46:23. > :46:29.and the current Prime Minister is focussed on it. I have written to

:46:30. > :46:34.him. His responses are detailed and relevant. He does want to ensure

:46:35. > :46:44.that peace is restored. So we are all on the same side. I have a too

:46:45. > :46:48.asks. Firstly, that he also supports the

:46:49. > :46:52.ceasefire, to intensify the support of the UN to try to bring peace

:46:53. > :46:56.there. To ensure that we continue the dialogue with all sides and

:46:57. > :47:00.especially with Saudi Arabia. I know that there has been a lot of

:47:01. > :47:05.criticism of the use of British weapons by the Saudis in this

:47:06. > :47:09.conflict. Of course that will go on. We live in a parliamentary

:47:10. > :47:13.documentary, we have to raise the issues, and the government has to

:47:14. > :47:18.respond as it has done. We have to work with the Saudis and the Omanis,

:47:19. > :47:22.they have not been mentioned enough. But the Sultan in particular has a

:47:23. > :47:26.big role to play. You look at that part of the world and think here is

:47:27. > :47:32.part of the Arab world where there is a border and to the north there

:47:33. > :47:36.is Oman peaceful as you can have a country, and below that, south of

:47:37. > :47:47.the border, there is the turmoil in Yemen. The Omanis need to be

:47:48. > :47:53.involved as does the GC skrvment -- GCCs. And to remind him, I know it

:47:54. > :47:57.is not his job to chase up debts but the great donor conference we had,

:47:58. > :48:02.and billions were pledged. But actually very few have paid up. I

:48:03. > :48:06.think we should go back to the countries that pledged and make sure

:48:07. > :48:12.that something is done. And let me end by saying we still have a lot of

:48:13. > :48:17.friends in Yemen. The families of Yemeni ambassadors who came here, my

:48:18. > :48:24.two children were friendly with one of the son's of the ambassadors,

:48:25. > :48:29.whose name was Salman. The last time he was here he had come to watch a

:48:30. > :48:34.football match with my young son as he then was. I think of this bright

:48:35. > :48:38.young boy and his sisters who came to this country for a short time as

:48:39. > :48:46.the children of diplomats, who we formed a bond of friendship with, to

:48:47. > :48:48.think of them in a house in Sana'a, without electricity, without

:48:49. > :48:53.schooling, without food, is terrible.

:48:54. > :48:58.I hope that if Salman is listening to the debate or hears it in some

:48:59. > :49:03.way, that he will contact us so thankfully we know that he and his

:49:04. > :49:09.family are safe. My worry is that the country, Yemen, it is bleeding

:49:10. > :49:13.to death. Unless we are prepared to stop the bleeding, then the

:49:14. > :49:19.consequences are horrendous. And from the bottom of my heart, I

:49:20. > :49:25.beg the minister to continue to do what he is doing, to make sure this

:49:26. > :49:28.is centre-stage to. Thank parliamentary colleagues who have so

:49:29. > :49:33.much on their agenda, to have come in such numbers from all over the

:49:34. > :49:35.country to think about Yemen and to talk about Yemen. To say my

:49:36. > :49:39.honourable friend who has just honourable friend who has just

:49:40. > :49:45.joined the frontbench, to thank him for coming. I hope he makes a

:49:46. > :49:50.propriority, to make it a priority to not to forget.

:49:51. > :50:01.Yemen matters to us, let us not allow Yemen to bleed to death. I do

:50:02. > :50:03.not criticise the Honourable gentleman, but we will now have a

:50:04. > :50:17.formal time-limit of five minutes. I will bear in mind the time-limit.

:50:18. > :50:20.It is a great pleasure to follow the thoughtful speech from the

:50:21. > :50:25.Honourable member for Leicester East. And the passion he brings,

:50:26. > :50:32.given his own background. The first point for me is, why does this

:50:33. > :50:37.conflict matters to us in the UK? Why have I taken the time to come

:50:38. > :50:48.here? There are three reasons. The geographical location. You go back

:50:49. > :50:52.to Victorian times, Suez was one of the key links for trade of the

:50:53. > :50:56.British Empire, it is still one of the seven key maritime pinch points,

:50:57. > :51:05.and so stability matters to global trade. There is a moral duty, given

:51:06. > :51:09.that Aiden was a British protectorate, for still to keep an

:51:10. > :51:16.interest in the area and how it has developed. We have played quite a

:51:17. > :51:21.tip the control is a country over the last 100 years in shaping how

:51:22. > :51:28.the modern and insular looks's peninsular looks. Problems do not

:51:29. > :51:31.stay within one nation's orders, we have seen that dramatically

:51:32. > :51:36.illustrated in Syria, with the refugee crisis. The UN warned that

:51:37. > :51:43.40 million are what they term food insecure. An interesting way of

:51:44. > :51:46.describing people potentially who may actually starve if they do not

:51:47. > :51:53.get assistance. Finally, humanitarian concern. My predecessor

:51:54. > :51:56.in Torbay brought to my attention today some of the heartbreaking

:51:57. > :52:04.images coming out of the impact of conflict, which remind me of the

:52:05. > :52:09.statement that it is just as well that war is so terrible, or we would

:52:10. > :52:17.grow too fond of it. It is also worth remembering that there is a

:52:18. > :52:27.threat posed to security. In the middle of the battle between the

:52:28. > :52:30.forces of Al-Qaeda. Both sides are opposed to Al-Qaeda in the Arabian

:52:31. > :52:37.Peninsula, which has staged numerous deadly attacks. Western intelligence

:52:38. > :52:41.agencies consider Al-Qaeda in the Arabian peninsula the most dangerous

:52:42. > :52:47.branch of Al-Qaeda, because of its technical expertise and global

:52:48. > :52:53.reach. Would he agree that it is the regional instability that makes the

:52:54. > :52:58.issue even more urgent and the need to find a peaceful solution to the

:52:59. > :53:05.problem so we don't create a bigger vacuum into which organisations like

:53:06. > :53:10.Al-Qaeda can move? I completely agree, where you have spaces of

:53:11. > :53:14.conflict, it is work no Government or system of law and order exist

:53:15. > :53:19.that these groups can fester and grow and develop their own

:53:20. > :53:23.abilities. We saw it in Afghanistan during the time of the Taliban, we

:53:24. > :53:30.Sea Eagle interior, where a civil war has allowed Daesh to grow and

:53:31. > :53:35.build its capabilities. It is having these spaces where no Government

:53:36. > :53:39.exists, as we have in Yemen and in other parts of the Middle East, that

:53:40. > :53:44.creates that danger to our security and global security, which we cannot

:53:45. > :53:49.just ignore. The US have been carrying out operations, including

:53:50. > :53:54.drone strikes, in Yemen, but the advance of the rebels have seen the

:53:55. > :53:59.American campaign scaled back. We find a situation where a quarrel

:54:00. > :54:04.between two enemies of Al-Qaeda is making it easier for Al-Qaeda to

:54:05. > :54:15.develop and become more of a threat. As we touched on, the prospect of

:54:16. > :54:18.the fighting spilling over into neighbouring countries, not least

:54:19. > :54:24.into Saudi territory, whilst we may all have our views in this chamber

:54:25. > :54:27.about some of Saudi Arabia's appalling domestic policies, the

:54:28. > :54:30.lack of religious freedom, the use of the death penalty in a way that

:54:31. > :54:37.we find unacceptable in this country, we sometimes need to be

:54:38. > :54:40.careful what we wish for, because some of the potential alternatives

:54:41. > :54:47.are not a modern liberal Western democracy. When we look back to the

:54:48. > :54:50.Arab Spring in 2011, many of us naively hoped it would be like the

:54:51. > :54:56.1989 Velvet Revolution that swept through Eastern Europe, sweeping

:54:57. > :55:01.away dictators and despots and replacing them with relatively

:55:02. > :55:04.modern democracies. Many of us would say that some of the experiences of

:55:05. > :55:08.some of the forces that have an unleashed since 2011 have not been

:55:09. > :55:15.forces of freedom and tolerance, quite the opposite. It is right that

:55:16. > :55:20.we do work with the Saudi Government and the wider coalition to try and

:55:21. > :55:28.bring peace based on a United Nations resolution to Yemen. Whilst

:55:29. > :55:35.we do engage with some support to the Saudi Armed Forces, I have to

:55:36. > :55:38.say I would rather it is our forces who have human rights and

:55:39. > :55:46.international law ingrained into their operation than perhaps some

:55:47. > :55:51.other countries who may be providing support who only in the last 30

:55:52. > :55:58.years have their forces engaged in things we find unacceptable. We

:55:59. > :56:02.cannot turn the blind eye. We see children being dragooned into

:56:03. > :56:06.fighting for rebel groups and terror organisations, a 3-way war

:56:07. > :56:08.threatening to spill over and threatening the security of some of

:56:09. > :56:12.the key maritime routes and the stability of the wider region, we

:56:13. > :56:17.can't ignore this. It is not just for the UK to do on its own, we need

:56:18. > :56:20.to make sure laws apply, we need to make sure all parties to the

:56:21. > :56:28.conflict respect the obligations they have. But ultimately, we are

:56:29. > :56:34.working with our partners, we can bring peace, and I welcome this

:56:35. > :56:41.debate. It is a pleasure to follow the rubble gentleman, I congratulate

:56:42. > :56:47.the Honourable Lady for giving this -- bringing this debate before us.

:56:48. > :56:51.The committee is undertaking an enquiry into the Yemen situation, we

:56:52. > :56:57.heard evidence last week that was so powerful and convincing that the

:56:58. > :57:02.humanitarian response, the excellent humanitarian response, is being

:57:03. > :57:09.undermined by the wider Government approach, we felt compelled to write

:57:10. > :57:13.this week to the Government, setting out our serious concerns, and I will