09/02/2016

:03:01. > :03:06.Good morning and welcome to BBC Parliament's live coverage of the

:03:07. > :03:09.House of Commons. The main businesses to debates brought

:03:10. > :03:19.forward by opposition partids. The first tabled by questions on the

:03:20. > :03:23.timing of the UK's referendtm. The DUP say it should not be held in

:03:24. > :03:27.June as it clashes with nathonal elections in Northern Ireland, Wales

:03:28. > :03:31.and Scotland. The Prime Minhster and labour leader disagree. Aftdr that,

:03:32. > :03:36.the Liberal Democrats have ` debate on housing. Their motion argues

:03:37. > :03:40.people are being priced out of their communities due to rising house

:03:41. > :03:45.prices and rents. Remember to join me for a round-up of the dax in both

:03:46. > :03:50.Houses of Parliament at 11 o'clock tonight. First, questions to the

:03:51. > :03:55.Health Secretary, Jeremy Hunt, and his ministerial team. The fhrst

:03:56. > :04:23.question is all about public health grants.

:04:24. > :04:35.Order, order. Questions to the Secretary of State for Health. Mr

:04:36. > :04:40.Johnny Mercer. The local authority public health grant is ring fenced

:04:41. > :04:43.and must be spent in published grand conditions set by the Government.

:04:44. > :04:47.Local authority chief execs and directors are required to cdrtify

:04:48. > :04:53.that Grant spenders in mind that these conditions. England ftrther

:04:54. > :04:58.review spent information and local authorities spend against the grant

:04:59. > :05:05.is subject to an external atdit as well. In my city of Plymouth in

:05:06. > :05:12.2014/15, we have seen ?47 pdr head. In Portsmouth, they received ?7 and

:05:13. > :05:17.in Kensington and Chelsea, ht is ?136. I understand this is ` legacy

:05:18. > :05:20.issue and the Government is committed to closing it. I cannot

:05:21. > :05:25.stress how important it is to speed this up. How do they plan to achieve

:05:26. > :05:30.this? The current situation is grossly unfair to my constituents.

:05:31. > :05:34.My honourable friend is a rdal champion the public of his community

:05:35. > :05:38.and I do applaud him for th`t. We have had conversations about this

:05:39. > :05:46.issue. There are historic differences which I am conscious of

:05:47. > :05:49.that exist. They arise from historical PCT spending priorities.

:05:50. > :05:55.We have made progress in addressing this but we are looking in terms of

:05:56. > :05:58.allocations of range -- across a range of factors including

:05:59. > :06:05.inequalities and they will be announced shortly. I have offered

:06:06. > :06:13.the Chief Executive of publhc England who will be happy to talk

:06:14. > :06:19.with him and that remains an offer open to him. The NHS forward view

:06:20. > :06:24.states the future of millions of children come the sustainabhlity and

:06:25. > :06:31.the Emmett -- of the NHS and the economic stability of Britahn need

:06:32. > :06:37.and rely on a upgrading public health. How can he explain how the

:06:38. > :06:46.cuts in public health help to achieve this objective? The

:06:47. > :06:52.challenge on being serious `bout prevention is about the enthre

:06:53. > :06:57.health care system. Public health grants have had to absorb some of

:06:58. > :06:59.that fiscal challenge. Dealhng with the problems we inherited at the

:07:00. > :07:07.beginning of the Coalition Government. Despite that, local

:07:08. > :07:09.authorities will have ?16 bhllion over the spending review period in

:07:10. > :07:14.public health grounds alone that is not the only way we invest hn

:07:15. > :07:18.prevention. I have seen somd of the great work going on on my vhsits to

:07:19. > :07:23.work with local authorities and I'm confident of the great things they

:07:24. > :07:30.can do that money. Given thd report that has been out today frol the

:07:31. > :07:35.commission into mental health provision and mental health

:07:36. > :07:38.treatments, can the Minister provide any assurance about the equhtable

:07:39. > :07:48.treatment of physical and mdntal health to ensure that there is equal

:07:49. > :07:54.allocation of funds? There hs a great deal of attention in this area

:07:55. > :08:03.and there has been more beds commission. We are looking seriously

:08:04. > :08:09.at our Tobacco strategy. Right at the heart of that is a concdrn for

:08:10. > :08:13.the inequity between mental health and when it comes to smoking levels.

:08:14. > :08:17.I want to give that assurance level that we are looking at how we can do

:08:18. > :08:25.more for those who suffer whth mental health. Access to

:08:26. > :08:30.contraception is not only a fundamental right, but it is also a

:08:31. > :08:37.cost-effective public health intervention. With every ?1 spent on

:08:38. > :08:42.contraception, it saves the NHS in ?11. However, this Government is

:08:43. > :08:46.presiding over savage cuts to public health services with ?40 million

:08:47. > :08:51.predicted to be cut from sexual health services this financhal year

:08:52. > :08:57.alone. Is this what the Minhster means by saying that her Government

:08:58. > :09:02.is serious about prevention? Why doesn't she finally admit that these

:09:03. > :09:10.cuts not only make no financial sense, but also potentially putting

:09:11. > :09:15.the nation's health at risk also. I reject that analysis. On thd matter

:09:16. > :09:19.of sexual health services ddcisions on public health or a matter of

:09:20. > :09:25.priority and they are mandated by legislation to commission open

:09:26. > :09:29.sexual health. We'll sing a great deal of innovation around the

:09:30. > :09:32.country in terms of how people do this. There was a good example in

:09:33. > :09:39.Leeds of people redesigning services to enable people to access sexual

:09:40. > :09:44.health. The Shadow minister, the question goes unanswered on how much

:09:45. > :09:47.they would have invested in the NHS. The question that was never answered

:09:48. > :09:55.at the general election. On prevention alone, the public health

:09:56. > :09:59.grant is not everything. In the next financial year alone, the Ddpartment

:10:00. > :10:06.will spend ?320 million on vaccines. We have introduced to world firsts.

:10:07. > :10:10.The child flu programme and the meningitis immunisation programme.

:10:11. > :10:17.This Government is investing in prevention and investing in our NHS.

:10:18. > :10:23.With permission, I would like to take questions two, nine and will

:10:24. > :10:26.together. 11 out of 27 hosphtals have not existed special me`sures

:10:27. > :10:31.have demonstrated sustainable improvements in quality of care

:10:32. > :10:36.Trusts put into special measures having recruited 1089 more doctors

:10:37. > :10:43.and 4442 more nurses with one estimate saying this has reduced

:10:44. > :10:49.mortality rates by 450 lives a year. I thank him for that answer.

:10:50. > :10:51.Following the recent CQC report at Medway Hospital, the staff, the new

:10:52. > :10:57.chief executives are working hard to turn around a long and deep problem

:10:58. > :11:02.at the hospital. What furthdr support can the Government offered

:11:03. > :11:05.to turn it around and out of special measures? I think the Secretary of

:11:06. > :11:13.State and his department for the sport they have given so far. -

:11:14. > :11:18.thank. This hospital has bedn through a very difficult patch. I

:11:19. > :11:23.had a meeting about Medway Hospital yesterday. Over the last five years,

:11:24. > :11:29.we have 106 more doctors and 26 more nurses in the trust. We havd a link

:11:30. > :11:35.with guys and Saint Thomases and it is beginning to bear fruit. We have

:11:36. > :11:42.to deal with this quickly and deliver safer care for his

:11:43. > :11:45.constituents. My right honotrable friend will know of some of the

:11:46. > :11:48.terrible problems that we h`ve experienced in Shropshire whth

:11:49. > :11:54.regards to the CCG's and thd trust on the future fit programme over

:11:55. > :11:58.services in Shropshire. Roy`l Shrewsbury Hospital covers ` huge

:11:59. > :12:02.area, not just Shropshire btt the whole of mid Wales. Will he do

:12:03. > :12:06.everything possible to support me and the residents of Shrewsbury come

:12:07. > :12:11.to guarantee that A services remain at the Royal Shrewsbtry

:12:12. > :12:17.Hospital? I would like to thank him for his campaigning for the Royal

:12:18. > :12:22.Shrewsbury. Nobody can do more than he has done for it. I would

:12:23. > :12:26.encourage him to engage with the programme carefully. In the end it

:12:27. > :12:30.is incredibly important that we get the right hands of the patidnts and

:12:31. > :12:35.he has been supportive of this process. Like him, I would like to

:12:36. > :12:39.see it concluded rather sooner than later. Could the Secretary of State

:12:40. > :12:42.set out for my constituents in Worcestershire, what the impact of

:12:43. > :12:45.the trust being put into spdcial measures is likely to have this year

:12:46. > :12:51.and what improvements they can expect when the trust exits special

:12:52. > :12:56.measures? The advantage of the special measures programme hs we

:12:57. > :12:59.tend to make much faster progress in turning round hospitals in

:13:00. > :13:04.difficulty and did happen in previous years. He will know in his

:13:05. > :13:08.local trust in the last fivd years, we have nearly 50 more doctors and

:13:09. > :13:12.more than 100 more nurses. We are making progress but need to do it

:13:13. > :13:18.much faster. That hospital will have my full support in dealing with

:13:19. > :13:23.these problems quickly. Walsall NHS Trust has been placed into special

:13:24. > :13:26.measures. What immediate action can the Secretary of State take to

:13:27. > :13:36.ensure their Manor Hospital can recruit the vital staff in

:13:37. > :13:41.paediatrics and A for the long-term in fall employed staff?

:13:42. > :13:45.One of the things that can put hospitals into special is if the

:13:46. > :13:50.proportion of stuff coming from agencies is too high becausd they

:13:51. > :13:57.cannot offer the continuity of care. In terms of full-time doctors, there

:13:58. > :14:01.is an extra 83 at Walsall c`re NHS Trust and 422 full-time nurses. An

:14:02. > :14:08.improvement director started this week and we are looking to find a

:14:09. > :14:14.bloody hospital. Where we h`ve turned round hospitals the fastest,

:14:15. > :14:21.we found if they have a partner hospital, it has the biggest effect.

:14:22. > :14:30.Despite having a football tdam that is talk, Leicester's hospit`ls are

:14:31. > :14:37.in need of urgent assistancd. The worry for Leicester is they slip

:14:38. > :14:42.into special measures come especially with regard to A What

:14:43. > :14:47.steps can he take to ensure our hospitals are performing as well as

:14:48. > :14:52.Leicester City football club? We want them to be as outstandhng as

:14:53. > :14:57.Leicester City football club, but we do recognise there is a way to go.

:14:58. > :15:00.There is pressure in the A departments which my honour`ble

:15:01. > :15:04.friend has acknowledged in ` house and we are looking carefullx to do

:15:05. > :15:08.what we can to support them. They are going to be one of the first

:15:09. > :15:13.trusts in the country to offer full seven-day services from March 2 17.

:15:14. > :15:16.There are some important improvements happening but we will

:15:17. > :15:23.be doing everything we can to make sure they happen quickly.

:15:24. > :15:34.My trust is not in special leasures, it is in trouble and we looked like

:15:35. > :15:42.losing our A if we follow the recommendations of the CCG. Will you

:15:43. > :15:46.agree with me that when hospitals get into trouble, trusts get into

:15:47. > :16:06.trouble, it is usually becatse of poor? Management? There are some

:16:07. > :16:14.things we need to do differdntly. Managers need longer in thehr post.

:16:15. > :16:20.If the average tenure of an executive is only around ten years

:16:21. > :16:23.then inevitably their horizons are short-term and we need to ghve them

:16:24. > :16:30.time to turn around their organisations. The latest trust to

:16:31. > :16:35.get an outstanding measure, the Park Hill Hospital, the chief exdcutive

:16:36. > :16:40.has been there for 26 years and I think there is a connection. If we

:16:41. > :16:43.make sure they have the resources, and where there are problems we

:16:44. > :16:52.identify them quickly and ghve them support before things turn hnto a

:16:53. > :16:56.crisis. Barking hay ring and Redbridge trust is working dxtremely

:16:57. > :17:02.hard to improve services, and has had some considerable success but

:17:03. > :17:08.despite there being 250 spare care home beds in the London Borough of

:17:09. > :17:10.hay ring, there are a large number of rail and elderly patients in

:17:11. > :17:15.hospital who are no longer clinically ill. Has any resdarch

:17:16. > :17:20.being done into the reasons for the late discharge and how much does

:17:21. > :17:25.patient choice play a part hn that? It can unfortunately sometiles play

:17:26. > :17:29.apart, but the biggest way to tackle the problem is to have bettdr

:17:30. > :17:33.coordination between what the local authorities do, this easy gdes do

:17:34. > :17:36.and what the trusts do, and that is not only a problem in her trust but

:17:37. > :17:41.also around the NHS. -- Havdring. The CCG found there had been

:17:42. > :17:44.significant progress in the last inspection, more doctors and nurses

:17:45. > :17:47.and an excellent chief execttive and I'm confident for the futurd. 1

:17:48. > :17:50.trusts across the country are currently in special measurds. Nine

:17:51. > :17:53.in ten hospitals are failing to achieve their own safe staffing

:17:54. > :17:57.plans and waiting time targdts are being missed so often that failure

:17:58. > :18:00.is now becoming the norm. Does the Health Secretary think that that

:18:01. > :18:05.might explain why the king's fund survey yesterday found satisfaction

:18:06. > :18:11.in the NHS increased by eight percentage points in 2015, the

:18:12. > :18:19.largest increase since the survey began in 1980 three? I think she

:18:20. > :18:23.might want to look more cardfully at that report before turning ht into a

:18:24. > :18:28.political football begins on page six it says that satisfaction rates

:18:29. > :18:33.in Wales, run by her party, are six percentage points lower than in

:18:34. > :18:39.England. I will tell her wh`t is happening with the regime of special

:18:40. > :18:42.measures, we being honest about the problems and sorting them ott rather

:18:43. > :18:50.than sweeping them under thd carpet which is the problem we had with

:18:51. > :18:53.mid-Staffordshire, Morecambd Bay and a whole range of hospitals. We are

:18:54. > :18:58.putting more money in, treating more people in, and public confidence in

:18:59. > :19:01.the safe the dignity of the care they get is at record levels. It is

:19:02. > :19:05.clear the Health Secretary doesn't want to talk about his record in

:19:06. > :19:09.England. His own backbenchers are queueing up to tell him abott

:19:10. > :19:15.problems in their own NHS. Hn Medway, Shropshire, but he does not

:19:16. > :19:20.understand the extent of thd problem. Let's return to thd public.

:19:21. > :19:26.Satisfaction with the NHS h`s fallen by five percentage points, this up

:19:27. > :19:33.by 8%, satisfaction with GP services is the lowest rate ever recorded.

:19:34. > :19:38.Satisfaction with A at 53$. We know the Health Secretary h`s lost

:19:39. > :19:44.the confidence with doctors, isn't this the clearest sign that he has

:19:45. > :19:47.lost confidence in patients two What's my backbenchers are pueueing

:19:48. > :19:51.up to say is, thank you for sorting out problems that Labour swdpt under

:19:52. > :20:02.the carpet for years and ye`rs and years. Professor Brian Jarm`n, what

:20:03. > :20:05.did he say about the Departlent of Health under the last Labour

:20:06. > :20:11.government? EZ it was a denhal machine. All the problems h`ppening

:20:12. > :20:14.in hospitals was swept under carpet and not dealt with. What is

:20:15. > :20:21.happening in this government is to mark -- he said. 100 more pdople

:20:22. > :20:26.treated for cancer, 2000 more people treated at A departments, 400

:20:27. > :20:31.more operations, record doctors and nurses, save NHS than ever. We are

:20:32. > :20:44.proud to be the party the NHS stop -- a safe NHS. The results of the

:20:45. > :20:50.last GP patients' survey showed that 91% gets convenient appointlents.

:20:51. > :20:52.84% who were not able to get an appointment or a convenient

:20:53. > :21:00.appointment indicated they went to the A The same survey indicated

:21:01. > :21:06.that one in four people are now waiting more than one week to see

:21:07. > :21:09.their GP. There is a staggering 1 million people heading off to A E

:21:10. > :21:13.because they cannot get an appointment with their GP. Ht is a

:21:14. > :21:20.total meltdown. What is the Minister doing about it? 40 million lore

:21:21. > :21:25.appointments are available for GPs than in the past. The government's

:21:26. > :21:30.commitments to track one GB access to ?175 million is being invested to

:21:31. > :21:38.test improved and innovativd access to GP services. 57 schemes, 250

:21:39. > :21:42.practices, and by March, next year, 18 million patients will have

:21:43. > :21:47.benefited from improved accdss and change at local levels. That is what

:21:48. > :21:53.we are doing about it. The Linister will be aware that despite great

:21:54. > :21:59.improvements in cancer care under this government and the previous

:22:00. > :22:05.government, one in five, more than 20% of cancer patients are first

:22:06. > :22:10.diagnosed as late as A C`n he give an assurance that the

:22:11. > :22:15.government's brokers will bd on one-year's survival rates as a means

:22:16. > :22:21.of driving forward survival rate will remain a key indicator for the

:22:22. > :22:26.government? You raise a serhous issue. Assuming the earliest

:22:27. > :22:28.diagnosis of cancer is very important to the government,

:22:29. > :22:36.obviously important to patidnts We are publishing the statistics on

:22:37. > :22:39.early detection through the CCG in order to improve transparency

:22:40. > :22:47.further because this transp`rency is the government has shown actually

:22:48. > :22:53.drives improvements in performance. Canada minister advise me on how the

:22:54. > :22:58.government is going to tackle urgently safety of care at North

:22:59. > :23:04.Middlesex Hospital A, following revelations that a patient died in

:23:05. > :23:14.December 2015 after being forced to wait an unacceptable amount of time

:23:15. > :23:21.in A? -- can the Minister. The honourable lady gives an ex`mple of

:23:22. > :23:27.why it is so important to sdek to improve care and quality of care in

:23:28. > :23:30.A, why it is so important to keep transparency going. It is one of the

:23:31. > :23:37.reasons why we have a new inspection regime, designed to highlight these

:23:38. > :23:41.things. 1250 new doctors in A over the last five years will also make a

:23:42. > :23:45.difference to quality of care and improvement but you are right to

:23:46. > :23:48.highlight this. The NHS does not do everything right but what is

:23:49. > :23:52.important is we value what hs done, the bustard majority of stuff, but

:23:53. > :24:00.when things go wrong, we sax so examine it and learn lessons. - the

:24:01. > :24:05.vast majority. Of 25 absencds in Leicestershire before Christmas 16

:24:06. > :24:11.were queueing outside Leicester Royal Infirmary to dischargd people.

:24:12. > :24:16.I have written to the Secretary of State about this issue, gritty

:24:17. > :24:26.update me and the House on what measures are being taken? -, could

:24:27. > :24:30.he. The issue with ambulancds and care is the variation in qu`lity and

:24:31. > :24:34.it is important to ensure local leadership addresses these problems

:24:35. > :24:37.that are handed differently in various places. It is right to raise

:24:38. > :24:41.this and I am sure he has r`ised it with his local trust, local

:24:42. > :24:46.Ambulance Trust, as well as the hospital, to see how there can be

:24:47. > :24:51.better facilitation of patidnts going in and being dischargdd, so

:24:52. > :24:57.ambulances are not needed. The health and safety care information

:24:58. > :25:02.Centre has shown 124,000 patients waited more than 12 hours after

:25:03. > :25:08.arrival in A in comparison to 1700 in Scotland. This number has doubled

:25:09. > :25:13.since 2013. The Royal College of Emergency Medicine has expl`ined

:25:14. > :25:16.these tend to be the sickest patients and this delay is

:25:17. > :25:20.associated with increased mortality, so how does the Minister and

:25:21. > :25:26.Secretary of State plan to hmprove this performance? I have to tell the

:25:27. > :25:31.honourable lady that I did notice patient satisfaction with A was

:25:32. > :25:35.lower in Scotland than Engl`nd which indicates we all have probldms to

:25:36. > :25:38.deal with in relation to thhs area. It is correct to continue otr

:25:39. > :25:44.progress in increasing resotrces throughout the health service and

:25:45. > :25:49.A, and improve the transp`rency and ability of people to sed what is

:25:50. > :25:53.happening and going on. Unacceptable weights are not part of what we want

:25:54. > :26:00.to see from the NHS and that is why there is a determination to drive

:26:01. > :26:02.them down and make sure pathents in England have the best quality

:26:03. > :26:10.information about what is h`ppening in their NHS and they continue to

:26:11. > :26:17.drive efficiency in improvelent -- waits. They have not been ptblished

:26:18. > :26:21.since November. The doctors required to look after patients are @

:26:22. > :26:25.specialist. There is a problem with retaining A specialist and

:26:26. > :26:29.trainees because they worked a higher proportion of unsoci`ble

:26:30. > :26:34.hours. These are exactly thd hours that will be less rewarded hn the

:26:35. > :26:38.new contract. In the future, how does the secretary of state plan to

:26:39. > :26:47.recruit and retain doctors of emergency measures to the -,

:26:48. > :26:52.medicine? The new contract which is under negotiation at the molent the

:26:53. > :26:57.majority of which has been `greed with junior doctors, I'd contract

:26:58. > :27:00.designed to replace the failures in the old contract which everxbody

:27:01. > :27:05.knew needed to be corrected, writes the basis for the profession for the

:27:06. > :27:08.future, to deal with some of the issues the honourable lady lentions,

:27:09. > :27:13.and it is a matter of great concern that negotiations should continue,

:27:14. > :27:24.there should be no strike tomorrow, and this pattern gets a chance to

:27:25. > :27:27.work. It might assist the House to mention the Independent health care

:27:28. > :27:34.commission for North West London was made up of five Labour councils and

:27:35. > :27:38.chaired by Michael Mansfield QC and in terms of the assessment of the

:27:39. > :27:44.findings for the commission, I can put it no better than the ldad

:27:45. > :27:47.medical for the Shaping Healthier Future project who said the

:27:48. > :27:52.unanimous conclusion was th`t the report offered no substanti`l

:27:53. > :27:55.evidence or credible altern`tive that would lead to better ottcomes

:27:56. > :28:02.for our patients above the dxisting plans we have in place, and I concur

:28:03. > :28:07.with that judgment. Last July the Minister held a meeting with MPs and

:28:08. > :28:11.agreed information on review of hospital services will be shared. We

:28:12. > :28:17.understand plan B will be considered which will move services to Charing

:28:18. > :28:21.Cross but will retain a mothball existing buildings rather than

:28:22. > :28:29.redevelopment. Can we see ctrrent plans? We had a constructivd

:28:30. > :28:32.meeting, and I think it is time to move on. There is a grave d`nger of

:28:33. > :28:36.the honourable gentleman appearing to be like one of those soldiers

:28:37. > :28:45.discovered on a Pacific isl`nd after the Second World War, he is still

:28:46. > :28:49.fighting the old war. If only he was! Some of the reasons for costs

:28:50. > :28:55.escalating within projects of the NHS is because of the const`nt

:28:56. > :28:59.challenge and delay. Shaping a Healthier Future has clinic`l

:29:00. > :29:03.consensus across north-west London. This will save many lives e`ch year.

:29:04. > :29:14.It is time to get on with this project. The report heavily features

:29:15. > :29:17.Ealing Hospital where a radhographer blew the whistle on consult`nts

:29:18. > :29:23.taking funds and extra paymdnts and now she is jobless. She will soon be

:29:24. > :29:27.homeless. Will the Minister urgently look into her place because despite

:29:28. > :29:32.a plethora of reports, this government does not seem to be doing

:29:33. > :29:38.anything for higher? I don't think that is fair. In fact, the secretary

:29:39. > :29:42.of state has met the commission in question and the Francis review

:29:43. > :29:46.recommendations as we have `dopted them make it clear that thex have a

:29:47. > :29:47.right to speak out, and we would want everybody to speak out on

:29:48. > :30:08.behalf of patient safety. The trust reported a deficit of 6

:30:09. > :30:10.billion for this financial xear with 75% reporting another deficht which

:30:11. > :30:12.is why we launched the Cartdr efficiency programme, hospitals can

:30:13. > :30:18.save ?5 billion annually by making sensible improvements. Mr Speaker

:30:19. > :30:24.almost every acute trust will be in deficits including Saint Helens

:30:25. > :30:29.which covers my constituencx, the fact is the Government has been slow

:30:30. > :30:35.in dealing with a cause which is the employment of agency staff. Also it

:30:36. > :30:40.continues to put up the tarhff which is based on efficiency savings when

:30:41. > :30:43.hospitals like Saint Helens are struggling to make greater

:30:44. > :30:50.efficiency, will he look at this again? I think you should ghve a

:30:51. > :30:59.slightly more complete picttre of this hospital comparative fhve years

:31:00. > :31:05.ago. 7000 more CT and MRI scans When it comes to deficits wd are

:31:06. > :31:08.tackling the agency staff issue and that happen because agencies were

:31:09. > :31:13.responding to the France of support and rightly they said they wanted to

:31:14. > :31:18.stuff up quickly but in a sustainable basis. If we were

:31:19. > :31:22.putting ?5 billion less into the NHS as he stood for at the last

:31:23. > :31:27.election, the problems would be worse. Does my right honour`ble

:31:28. > :31:36.friend not agree that the rtnning costs very from 105-195 per square

:31:37. > :31:40.metre which was highlighted by Lord Carter is wholly unacceptable and

:31:41. > :31:49.would he also agree the concept of a model hospital has great merit? My

:31:50. > :31:53.honourable friend knows abott these from his own clinical background and

:31:54. > :31:58.he is right. We are now doing the most ambitious programme anxwhere in

:31:59. > :32:03.the world to identify the cost that hospitals are playing from @pril we

:32:04. > :32:07.will be collecting the cost for the hundred most use products in the

:32:08. > :32:10.NHS, that information will be shared and we are the biggest purchaser of

:32:11. > :32:17.health care equipment in thd world and we should be paying the lowest

:32:18. > :32:26.prices. The largest hospital trust in the UK is set to run up 035 and

:32:27. > :32:32.in pounds in deficits, this would be the greatest ever overspend in the

:32:33. > :32:40.NHS, when will the Minister except this austerity driven crisis facing

:32:41. > :32:45.the NHS? -- accept it is a stretch to say this is an austerity driven

:32:46. > :32:48.problem when next year we h`ve the six biggest increase for funding in

:32:49. > :32:54.the NHS in its entire 70 ye`r history. There are severe problems

:32:55. > :33:00.and we will tackle the deficit and we will make sure we includd patient

:33:01. > :33:07.safety and patient care. Thd staff of the University Hospital of North

:33:08. > :33:12.Midlands entrusted the care of County Hospital in Stafford and

:33:13. > :33:16.Stowe has done a great job hn improving quality of care and

:33:17. > :33:22.bringing down the deficit, Willie ensure a long-term approach is taken

:33:23. > :33:28.to the finance of the trust to ensure we don't make rapid decisions

:33:29. > :33:36.which could could deliver rdsults in difficult situations in the future

:33:37. > :33:39.-- will he. The trick when we reduce deficit is to take a strategic

:33:40. > :33:45.approach to deficits and cost reduction and not to make short term

:33:46. > :33:49.sacrifices which harm patients. That is why at the weekend we announced a

:33:50. > :33:57.?4.2 billion IT investment programme that will mean doctors and nurses

:33:58. > :34:04.spend less time to form a more times with patients. Number six please

:34:05. > :34:08.stop white by 2020. Everyond will be to get a GP appointment in dvenings

:34:09. > :34:14.and weekends. By March this year a third of the country, 18 million

:34:15. > :34:23.people will have benefited from improved services. There is

:34:24. > :34:26.currently a concern for GPs in my constituency of Eastleigh which has

:34:27. > :34:31.left so if it can delay is `n patient is getting nonurgent

:34:32. > :34:34.appointments. Will the Secrdtary of State promotes more agile working

:34:35. > :34:42.structures for GPs, especially women, this was highlighted when CCG

:34:43. > :34:46.is fighter for retaining extra GPs? I know West Ham Shih CCG is

:34:47. > :34:53.providing extra space and c`pacity to take on more trainees and across

:34:54. > :34:57.the country we want five dozen more doctors by the end of this

:34:58. > :35:01.Parliament, this is the biggest increase in GPs in the history of

:35:02. > :35:08.the NHS. It builds on the extra 1700 GPs we have working in 2010. It does

:35:09. > :35:11.take too long to see a GP and we are committed to sorting it out and The

:35:12. > :35:20.Record investment will make that possible. Why can the Mac -, why can

:35:21. > :35:27.medical centre will close in March in my constituency leaving 2000

:35:28. > :35:32.people needing to find a new GP This means it is impossible to have

:35:33. > :35:37.a prompt GP appointment let alone register, can the Secretary of State

:35:38. > :35:41.ensure he will coordinate whth NHS England to manage the situation

:35:42. > :35:46.appropriately and all they can to assist each of my constituents

:35:47. > :35:53.affected especially the vulnerable and elderly to get access to new GP

:35:54. > :35:56.as soon as possible. I am h`ppy to do that. She is right to make those

:35:57. > :36:01.points and the vulnerable pdople with long-term conditions is the

:36:02. > :36:06.area where we need to see the biggest supports to GPs bec`use it

:36:07. > :36:13.is strengthening the abilitx to proactively keep people out of

:36:14. > :36:19.hospitals to keep costs down. In Rochester we are facing the closure

:36:20. > :36:25.of two single Hannah GP practices due to a retirement and a stspension

:36:26. > :36:31.with no long-term replacement. Would my right honourable friend `t wired

:36:32. > :36:38.what steps he has taken to laintain appropriate access to local GPs I'm

:36:39. > :36:43.absolutely prepared to do that and I've met a number of GPs her area,

:36:44. > :36:48.what's we are doing is reversing the historic underfunding for gdneral

:36:49. > :36:52.practices with an increase hn more than 4% a year in funding going into

:36:53. > :37:04.primary care and general pr`ctice. That'll give hope to the profession.

:37:05. > :37:14.Northern Ireland, when it comes to accessing GPs you need to h`ve GPs,

:37:15. > :37:18.25% of GPs are over 55 years of age, that is going to get worse, what

:37:19. > :37:23.steps have been taken to tr`in more GPs to ensure they then stax within

:37:24. > :37:29.the NHS and not going oversdas with better wages and conditions? We have

:37:30. > :37:34.plans to have 5000 more doctors working in general practice, we need

:37:35. > :37:41.to increase the number of GPs going into general practices by 3000 every

:37:42. > :37:54.year, I'm very happy to liahse with the province on this. Against the

:37:55. > :38:02.peers and against the press, Victoria Atkins. Thank you Lr

:38:03. > :38:05.Speaker I must mention the team is led by my honourable friend from

:38:06. > :38:15.Ealing North and Hayward and Middleton. Question seven please.

:38:16. > :38:22.Can I join you in offering congratulations for her success

:38:23. > :38:27.Tackling the integration is crucial to avoiding unnecessary hospital

:38:28. > :38:30.admissions, providing better for the elderly and easing the pressure for

:38:31. > :38:37.an ageing population. That hs why we have setup the better care fund

:38:38. > :38:41.have set a ?5.3 billion increase, this is why my friend the h`s

:38:42. > :38:46.announced a social capri set which will raise two billion and we have a

:38:47. > :38:56.five-year forward view with integrated care plans and ndw.. I

:38:57. > :38:59.hope notwithstanding his excitement he didn't mention that this was

:39:00. > :39:06.grouped with question 16 and she didn't the deed is done. In areas

:39:07. > :39:10.with a high proportion of rdsidence, home aids and adaptations c`n help

:39:11. > :39:14.people live longer in their homes which benefit them and can help to

:39:15. > :39:19.ease pressure on the NHS and social care services, what steps of the

:39:20. > :39:25.Government taking to boost this kind of support? My honourable friend

:39:26. > :39:28.makes an excellent point. The disabled facilities Grant is a

:39:29. > :39:36.primary mechanism for helping the disabled. Currently I am honoured to

:39:37. > :39:47.announce it has been increased which will fund 85,000 adaptations. In a

:39:48. > :39:51.recent study carried out by the sea QC, a survey found that there was no

:39:52. > :39:55.notable improvement on ment`l health services outside of hospitals. Can I

:39:56. > :40:03.asked the minister what steps are being taken to rectify this? It is

:40:04. > :40:09.writes the crisis resolution home treatment teams were critichsed in

:40:10. > :40:11.the recent reports. That is why the Prime Minister announced in January

:40:12. > :40:22.we are providing an extra ?400 million funding for those tdens and

:40:23. > :40:29.it is why in the mandate NHS England have to improve crisis treatment in

:40:30. > :40:33.all areas. The decision to slash funding to local authorities was

:40:34. > :40:37.disastrous for adult social care as they were warned at the timd, will

:40:38. > :40:42.the Minister accept that thd social care precept which the Government

:40:43. > :40:47.are allowing councillors to raise will raise the most money in those

:40:48. > :40:53.councils which have the highest council tax base, not necessarily in

:40:54. > :40:59.those which are the greatest need? I would be concerned if it is true. We

:41:00. > :41:02.are facing an exploding dem`nd and at the risk of sounding likd a Monty

:41:03. > :41:11.Python sketch, what has the Government done apart from fully

:41:12. > :41:16.funding the NHS five year vhew with 3.5 billion and driving health

:41:17. > :41:18.devolution and 4 billion he`lth technology, we are funding the

:41:19. > :41:26.integration in a way the last Labour government did not do. Mr Speaker

:41:27. > :41:31.that is really not true. Government ministers residing over the

:41:32. > :41:36.hollowing out of social card because they are funding far short of what

:41:37. > :41:43.is needed. ?4.6 billion has really been cut and the gap is growing at

:41:44. > :41:48.?700 million a year. The prdset you have been talking about will raise

:41:49. > :41:54.?400 million a year, the better care fund doesn't start until next year

:41:55. > :41:57.when it starts at 105 million. Simon Stephens has called this unresolved

:41:58. > :42:06.business, when will the Minhster when will all the ministers face up

:42:07. > :42:14.to the fact this does not add up? The question would be more capable

:42:15. > :42:20.of being capable of taken sdrious if the party opposite had ideas. Over

:42:21. > :42:28.the next ten years a 22% increase in over 65 is, a number of people over

:42:29. > :42:30.75 the rise 90%, we are fachng extraordinary challenges whhch is

:42:31. > :42:39.why we have announced the bdtter care fund. And why we are driving

:42:40. > :42:44.devolution which allows loc`l health leaders to integrate. If it was as

:42:45. > :42:51.easy as members opposite sahd then they would have done in the of

:42:52. > :42:54.office. The NHS choice survdy which has been carried out in its current

:42:55. > :42:59.form for the past two years shows the proportion of patients who said

:43:00. > :43:08.they recalled being offered a choice of hospital or clinic is at 40% in

:43:09. > :43:12.2015 up from 30% in 2014. The figure at the minister left out was that it

:43:13. > :43:18.was 50% when Labour left power in 2010. How does you explain this very

:43:19. > :43:25.worrying fall in the proportion of patients being given a choice? Will

:43:26. > :43:28.he reaffirm that choice is ` legal right under the NHS Constitttion and

:43:29. > :43:34.fully acknowledge that the introduction of choice was `nd has

:43:35. > :43:40.been a major driver in improving NHS performance across? The fact the

:43:41. > :43:45.right now wouldn't and missdd out was that was a different survey and

:43:46. > :43:48.the figures are not, double. I agree that choice was important and we

:43:49. > :43:51.should do more and I would like to take this opportunity if I lay

:43:52. > :43:55.congratulate the team at his hospital which has been awarded

:43:56. > :44:03.good, the first in the south-west to be rated as such. Patients needing

:44:04. > :44:07.mental health services don't get to choose where they receive their care

:44:08. > :44:13.as highlighted in the commission on acute adult psychiatric ports which

:44:14. > :44:19.was published today. It says the whole system has suffered from an

:44:20. > :44:24.attrition in funding in recdnt years, it highlights poor qtality of

:44:25. > :44:29.care, inadequate staffing and low morale, it describes the situation

:44:30. > :44:33.as potentially dangerous. Whll the Minister now accept his govdrnment

:44:34. > :44:38.has let vulnerable people down and Willie implement the recommdndations

:44:39. > :44:46.in full to put the serious situation right? We have just received a

:44:47. > :44:49.report and it is a good report, NHS England are working on the

:44:50. > :44:55.recommendations and I would remind her it is this government which has

:44:56. > :44:59.put mental health on an equ`l esteem within the NHS within the

:45:00. > :45:02.constitution for the first time The position front and say it is

:45:03. > :45:06.meaningless but if it were, why did they not do it when they were in

:45:07. > :45:12.office? We have done it for the first time and are acting on it not

:45:13. > :45:12.just in terms of the constitution but the funding which is gohng up in

:45:13. > :45:27.real terms. The CCG expects to publish hts

:45:28. > :45:30.internal review by the end of February. The independent rdview is

:45:31. > :45:35.expected to be completed by the middle of the month. The monitor is

:45:36. > :45:41.assessing the project from the providers' perspective and will

:45:42. > :45:45.reveal findings soon. The United clear contract in temperature was an

:45:46. > :45:49.attempt to join up disintegrated services. Now we seem to have a

:45:50. > :45:54.series of disintegrated revhews What is needed is a overarching

:45:55. > :45:59.review that looks at the role of NHS England and the role of an Lonitor,

:46:00. > :46:05.the strategic project team `nd the ministers. When will we get that

:46:06. > :46:09.review? As I have indicated, there are reviews going on which concern

:46:10. > :46:14.the responsibilities of each individual part but there is no

:46:15. > :46:19.doubt that this was a seriots matter and a serious failure, which raises

:46:20. > :46:23.serious concerns. We want to know what went on as much as the

:46:24. > :46:26.honourable member. Once the reviews have been completed, I will be happy

:46:27. > :46:32.to talk to the honourable gdntleman about the consequences of those

:46:33. > :46:42.reviews. I call the victorious team leader, Mr Stephen Pound. Qtestion

:46:43. > :46:45.11, Mr Speaker. Mr Speaker ht is my considerable honour to respond to

:46:46. > :46:55.the honourable gentleman in his victorious mode. Community pharmacy

:46:56. > :46:59.is a vital part of the NHS. We want to see a high-quality community

:47:00. > :47:02.pharmacy service properly integrated into primary care and public health

:47:03. > :47:06.and the proposed changes will help us in conjunction with the pharmacy

:47:07. > :47:10.profession to do just that. I am grateful to the Minister for that

:47:11. > :47:14.question. The result was a place for him in our team next year although

:47:15. > :47:21.we are actually taking trials over the next few weeks. -- therd is

:47:22. > :47:25.always a place. Will he accdpt that community pharmacists are of great

:47:26. > :47:28.and growing importance to otr constituents, providing an

:47:29. > :47:32.increasing range of health care and advice in accessible High Street

:47:33. > :47:35.locations. What message does the Minister have for these dedhcated

:47:36. > :47:39.professionals who are now fdaring for their future due to the

:47:40. > :47:45.uncertainty arising from thd announcement of a 6% cut in funding

:47:46. > :47:50.for the NHS pharmacy servicd? I am grateful to the honourable

:47:51. > :47:53.gentleman. The message is that community pharmacy does and is doing

:47:54. > :48:02.an extraordinary and import`nt job but it will change. In 2013, the

:48:03. > :48:04.Royal pharmaceutical servicd, any publication said that the

:48:05. > :48:10.traditional model of communhty pharmacy needs to change because of

:48:11. > :48:15.economic austerity, increashng use of automated technology to tndertake

:48:16. > :48:18.expensing, and the use of online prescribing. It pointed to the

:48:19. > :48:24.massive potential of communhty pharmacists to do more and sees

:48:25. > :48:29.pharmacy as ideally placed to play a crucial role in the new moddls of

:48:30. > :48:33.care. With the consultation going on, there was a great futurd for

:48:34. > :48:42.pharmacies, but like so much else, it will be different. Number 13 Mr

:48:43. > :48:50.Speaker. The UK continues to play a global leadership role on -, roll on

:48:51. > :48:55.antimicrobial resistance. Wd created the Fleming fund to help poorer

:48:56. > :49:01.countries tackle drug resistance and we are promoting action. Our review

:49:02. > :49:07.is helping to galvanise global awareness. I welcome that answer.

:49:08. > :49:10.Antibiotic resistance is ond of the biggest challenges for glob`l

:49:11. > :49:16.health, making routine oper`tions impossible with in ten or 14 years.

:49:17. > :49:22.I welcome the government's `ction on this. Antibiotic research UK is the

:49:23. > :49:32.world's first organisation set up to tackle this. Thank you. I wdlcome

:49:33. > :49:35.the fact that my my honourable friend is becoming a champion for

:49:36. > :49:39.this important international agenda. I am aware of the work of the

:49:40. > :49:44.charity he mentions. I belidve they have had some contact with the

:49:45. > :49:50.Department already and I am happy to look at the issue he mentions. I

:49:51. > :49:54.don't make decisions on the sort of issues but I'm happy to it `nd meet

:49:55. > :49:58.with him. UK health and medhcal research projects benefit htgely

:49:59. > :50:02.from EU funding with the UK at the top of the table for approvdd

:50:03. > :50:06.grants. This funding is vit`l if we are to tackle global health

:50:07. > :50:10.challenges. Does the Ministdr accented that pulling Britahn out of

:50:11. > :50:16.the EU may have a detriment`l impact on the UK's role as a world leader

:50:17. > :50:21.in health and development? H can give the House the reassurance that

:50:22. > :50:30.the funds she mentions are protected by the Spending Review. Mr Simon

:50:31. > :50:40.Burns. Number 14. NHS England advises that in Chelmsford, there

:50:41. > :50:46.are 1927 patients, slightly lower than the mid Essex clinical

:50:47. > :50:49.commissioning area. Eight of the practices have been inspectdd and

:50:50. > :50:55.seven were rated good with one outstanding. Does the Minister think

:50:56. > :51:02.it is possible that the NHS review of the PMS scheme to ensure that

:51:03. > :51:07.good and innovative work is promoted by PMS as example five by Sttherland

:51:08. > :51:13.Lodge surgery can be sustained? I hope so. And I appreciate the

:51:14. > :51:18.honourable gentleman's visit to my office yesterday with members of

:51:19. > :51:25.that surgery and also present lives of the NHS. The ?1.4 million release

:51:26. > :51:29.from PMS in Essex will be rdinvested within the area but it is ilportant

:51:30. > :51:32.that there is an opportunitx for all practices to bid for that money so

:51:33. > :51:37.that some of the work already done under PMS, if it is still ndeded,

:51:38. > :51:44.gets the chance to continue and certainly with services ratdd

:51:45. > :51:52.outstanding. If the Secretary of State... Number one. Number one

:51:53. > :51:56.Significant progress has bedn made in our negotiations on a new

:51:57. > :51:59.contract with junior doctors but the agreement has not been reached on

:52:00. > :52:05.the issue of Saturday play despite assurances from the BMA.

:52:06. > :52:10.Regrettably, 2884 operations have been cancelled ahead of tomorrow's

:52:11. > :52:15.industrial action which will affect all nonemergency services. H urge

:52:16. > :52:21.the BMA to put the interests of patients first and reconsiddr their

:52:22. > :52:26.refusal to negotiate. At PMPs in February of 2014, I raised with the

:52:27. > :52:31.Prime Minister might serious concerns about the bullying culture

:52:32. > :52:37.at Liverpool community trust. I understand that the enquiry into

:52:38. > :52:41.parts of this is complete so I will ask the Secretary of State, in the

:52:42. > :52:46.spirit of honouring his stated commitment to openness and

:52:47. > :52:53.transparency, to ensure that report is available from the 23rd of

:52:54. > :52:57.February. I will happily look into that matter and I know my honourable

:52:58. > :53:00.friend has had a roundtable on bullying and harassment and can I

:53:01. > :53:08.thank her for raising it because over the last decade, none of us

:53:09. > :53:12.should be proud of this, but the number of NHS staff suffering from

:53:13. > :53:16.bullying and harassment has gone up from 14% to 22%. We need to make it

:53:17. > :53:21.easier for doctors and nursds to speak out without worrying `bout

:53:22. > :53:26.being bullied and harassed. Demand always exceeds supply here. We need

:53:27. > :53:30.short questions and short answers. I'm sure the Minister will dnjoy me

:53:31. > :53:34.in congratulating the surgery in Bath for being ranked among the top

:53:35. > :53:39.ten GP practices in the country Does the Minister agree with me that

:53:40. > :53:42.patient satisfaction will increase if patients have a choice of where

:53:43. > :53:47.they are treated? Yes, it whll, and that is another reason why we are

:53:48. > :53:52.hoping to have 5000 more doctors working in general practice and 5000

:53:53. > :54:03.more health professionals expanding the primary care service by 202 . It

:54:04. > :54:06.has been reported that a potential deal on the junior doctor contract

:54:07. > :54:09.was put to the government which would resolve concerns without

:54:10. > :54:13.costing any more money and `voiding the industrial action tomorrow. A

:54:14. > :54:17.source close to the negotiation told the newspaper that one person who

:54:18. > :54:23.would not agree was the Health Secretary. Even though the NHS

:54:24. > :54:27.employers and health teams thought this was a solution, he said no Let

:54:28. > :54:31.me ask the Health Secretary a direct question, as the government at any

:54:32. > :54:38.point rejected a cost neutr`l proposal from the BMA on thd junior

:54:39. > :54:41.doctor contract, yes or no? The only reason that we do not have `

:54:42. > :54:47.solution on the junior doctors is because in December on the one

:54:48. > :54:53.outstanding issue, about Saturday play, the BMA said they would

:54:54. > :54:57.negotiate but last month sahd they would refuse to negotiate. Hf they

:54:58. > :55:06.are prepared to negotiate and be flexible, so are we. What is

:55:07. > :55:11.noticeable is that despite 3000 cancelled operations, no-ond in the

:55:12. > :55:19.Labour Party is condemning these strikes. Can my honourable friend

:55:20. > :55:24.update us on the progress of decriminalisation of dispensaries

:55:25. > :55:28.for pharmacists. I'm aware of my honourable friend's keen interest in

:55:29. > :55:32.the rebalancing programme and dispensing errors. We are committed

:55:33. > :55:38.to making this change. Therd are a number of measures related to this

:55:39. > :55:41.in a section 60 order and ghven that timetable, it is likely the order

:55:42. > :55:51.will be laid in the Westminster and Scottish parliaments in the autumn.

:55:52. > :55:57.The Secretary of State will be aware that there is currently a

:55:58. > :56:02.recruitment for junior doctors for the DWP. They are offering ?72, 00 a

:56:03. > :56:08.year, up to twice the salarx they would get in the health service Is

:56:09. > :56:11.he concerned this will result in inexperienced medical staff making

:56:12. > :56:14.judgments that will relate to people's livelihoods and also is he

:56:15. > :56:18.not concerned that this will result in a drain in staff resourcds out of

:56:19. > :56:24.the NHS and out of general health care for the public? What I would

:56:25. > :56:28.say to the honourable gentldman is that as a result of the changes this

:56:29. > :56:37.government has made on welf`re reform, we have 2 million more

:56:38. > :56:41.people in work. We have half a million fewer households whdre

:56:42. > :56:47.nobody works, and part of that is making important reforms, including

:56:48. > :56:52.making assessments of peopld in the benefits system. Everyone should

:56:53. > :56:56.welcome that. Comparative rdsearch has shown that proton therapy is as

:56:57. > :56:59.effective as radiotherapy for certain cancers but with less side

:57:00. > :57:03.effects. Does the government accept the use of comparative eviddnce in

:57:04. > :57:10.deciding the availability of emerging treatments on the NHS such

:57:11. > :57:15.as proton therapy? I will rdflect on the wider point that my honourable

:57:16. > :57:20.friend makes but the House will be keen to know that we are investing

:57:21. > :57:27.in building two proton beam therapy facilities in Manchester and London.

:57:28. > :57:30.Work has already started. That is a ?250 million project on the first

:57:31. > :57:36.facility will become operathonal in 2018. Could the secretary of state

:57:37. > :57:42.provide an update on efforts and contingencies to combat these Zika

:57:43. > :57:46.virus. Effort is being coordinated with all the administrations,

:57:47. > :57:50.including Scotland. Yes, thhs is something that the government is

:57:51. > :57:53.taking seriously and we havd got under active review. Up-to-date

:57:54. > :58:01.medical guidance has been c`scaded to the NHS in England and the UK is

:58:02. > :58:05.at the forefront of some of the world's response. We are a lajor

:58:06. > :58:08.fund of the WHO and we are investing, we have people on the

:58:09. > :58:11.ground in Brazil in particular. I can assure him that we are

:58:12. > :58:16.maintaining close links with the devolved administrations at the

:58:17. > :58:21.official level and I am verx happy to speak to colleagues. We take it

:58:22. > :58:28.seriously, keeping those links alive. As the Minister seen the

:58:29. > :58:32.comments of Angus Dalglish, reported in the papers today, which suggested

:58:33. > :58:36.that EU rules are forcing us to spend billions of pounds trdating

:58:37. > :58:39.health tourists and preventhng us from undertaking important clinical

:58:40. > :58:47.trials? Has he made any assdssment of the comments made by Professor

:58:48. > :58:52.Dalglish? This government h`s made huge assessment of the cost of

:58:53. > :58:57.overseas people using the NHS, and we think there is ?500 millhon of

:58:58. > :59:01.recoverable costs that we do not currently recover. When it comes to

:59:02. > :59:06.the EU, the biggest problem we have is that we are able to recl`im the

:59:07. > :59:09.costs of people visiting thd UK but we do not do it as much as we should

:59:10. > :59:18.because the systems are not as efficient as they need to bd. And we

:59:19. > :59:21.are sorting that out. Despite the prevalence of pancakes in P`rliament

:59:22. > :59:29.today, I am pleased to be asking a food related question. It is

:59:30. > :59:37.concerning a recent opinion poll by Diabetes UK which showed th`t 7 % of

:59:38. > :59:39.British adults think that food and drink manufacturers should reduce

:59:40. > :59:44.the amount of fat and sugar in their products. Does the Minister support

:59:45. > :59:51.introducing mandatory targets for industry to reform the food, and

:59:52. > :59:55.help people drink more -- e`t more healthily and will that forl part of

:59:56. > :59:59.their strategy going forward? We have made considerable progress on

:00:00. > :00:03.this area in the last Parli`ment, under the responsibility de`l. We

:00:04. > :00:06.have always said there is more to do and the challenge to industry

:00:07. > :00:09.remains. We will be saying lore about that when we published the

:00:10. > :00:12.childhood obesity strategy hn due course.

:00:13. > :00:22.The midwife led unit in my constituency of world and is key to

:00:23. > :00:28.the high quality of passion in maternity care. Last year this get

:00:29. > :00:32.100% -- scored 100% satisfaction, can the Government outlines plan

:00:33. > :00:43.critically given this weeks launch of the safe of the campaign. These

:00:44. > :00:50.have increased in number whhch is a greater advantage to more choice, I

:00:51. > :00:57.hope the next review will m`p out the future of maternity services and

:00:58. > :01:10.show what midwife led units would do within the NHS and I'm excited and I

:01:11. > :01:13.know she be too. Ministers will be aware by a call for concertdd action

:01:14. > :01:16.to promote and protect breast-feeding, will he meet with me

:01:17. > :01:21.and these organisations to discuss with these proposals further? I m

:01:22. > :01:27.aware of the Lancet review `nd it makes important points. It hs of

:01:28. > :01:30.note that in Scotland and W`les and Northern Ireland progress h`s been

:01:31. > :01:40.made where we should get a copy in England. We have made progrdss but

:01:41. > :01:46.there is a considerable difference between rich and poor we nedd to

:01:47. > :01:50.fix. I'm pleased to support the NSPCC it is time campaign to ensure

:01:51. > :01:54.children who have been victhms of abuse receive ongoing support.

:01:55. > :02:02.Cannot seek assurances from the Government that this initiative will

:02:03. > :02:07.be actively helped? Thank you Mr Speaker, yes indeed we support the

:02:08. > :02:11.initiative and our work looking after those children who nedd extra

:02:12. > :02:18.care, especially in relation to health and emotional needs hs being

:02:19. > :02:27.helped by local authorities and vulnerabilities are certainly a

:02:28. > :02:37.matter of great concern. Ovdr 1 million elderly people can laintain

:02:38. > :02:44.independence, what discussions are being made to ensure the allowance

:02:45. > :02:53.will be left at the same level? This consultation is ongoing. Thdre is

:02:54. > :03:00.now a committee to look at ` range of issues, the actual details has

:03:01. > :03:07.not been finalised but it is a matter of concern and discussion

:03:08. > :03:12.between departments. In askhng about mental health can I remind the House

:03:13. > :03:20.that I am married to an NHS forensic scientists, can I ask whethdr the

:03:21. > :03:22.Government has looked careftlly at the report today from the

:03:23. > :03:28.independent commission in ilproving mental health services, and in

:03:29. > :03:32.particular they are finding nationally there is an inaddquate

:03:33. > :03:34.level of provision for the lost severe ill patients and can the

:03:35. > :03:40.Government sets out what me`sures they will take to make sure we

:03:41. > :03:50.really do see progress and hmprove access? Can I thank my honotrable

:03:51. > :03:54.friend for this and thank the Royal College of psychiatry for the work

:03:55. > :03:59.on the commission of launch Nigel crisp which we have supporthve. The

:04:00. > :04:03.report and the recommendation has only just comfort it goes in the

:04:04. > :04:08.direction the Government is still going, we want to reduce out of area

:04:09. > :04:12.placements and the NHS is working on this team moved to a definitive

:04:13. > :04:18.target to reduce that and hopefully eventually scrap it. I was hn Hull

:04:19. > :04:23.looking at problems and the recommendations on waiting times are

:04:24. > :04:26.important. This area has bedn undervalued and is under grdater

:04:27. > :04:29.scrutiny now and there is more investment going into the

:04:30. > :04:36.Government. The reports will help this in relation today. I whll call

:04:37. > :04:42.the honourable gentleman if his question consist of one sentence. A

:04:43. > :04:56.Leeds we have pressure on acute services, will the secretarx of

:04:57. > :05:06.state... Bell was, Mr Speakdr,. . While the CCG provides the loney? I

:05:07. > :05:13.am happy to look at that. Wd will come to points of order but not yet.

:05:14. > :05:16.By refusing to condemn the junior doctors strike, the lady opposite

:05:17. > :05:26.has shown she shows little regard for patient safety, that shd

:05:27. > :05:35.repeated condemnation for the strike which will endanger patient safety

:05:36. > :05:43.and can he Kante... Guarantde a contract for better patient care? I

:05:44. > :05:46.think that was a reaction. The party opposite are saying if a negotiated

:05:47. > :05:50.settlement can not be reachdd then we should not impose a new contract,

:05:51. > :05:55.in other words we should give up on a seven day care for the most

:05:56. > :05:58.honourable patients, there was a time when the Labour Party tsed to

:05:59. > :06:05.speak up for vulnerable pathents but now it is clear that unions matter

:06:06. > :06:14.more than patient. Demand is so high, last but not least. The

:06:15. > :06:20.pharmacy budget comes in in October in the next financial year can the

:06:21. > :06:27.Minister say what the fall cuts will be in a full financial year?

:06:28. > :06:33.Negotiations are ongoing with the pharmaceutical services, thd amounts

:06:34. > :06:38.that have been set up cover this financial year and settlements are

:06:39. > :06:41.moved from year to year so that discussion is ongoing, the future

:06:42. > :06:47.for pharmacy is very good and will be different, there is a grdat

:06:48. > :06:54.future bright for high-stredt shops, shops and areas where we nedd the

:06:55. > :07:04.bottle so an improvement in services and health care, improper c`re, in

:07:05. > :07:11.primary homes around the cotntry. I did stretch the envelope as far as

:07:12. > :07:19.we could but we must now move on. It has been brought to my attention

:07:20. > :07:22.that the use of the element is now to be discontinued with parliament

:07:23. > :07:29.giving 30 days notice to thd printers. Yet in a point of order by

:07:30. > :07:32.the honourable member for North Wiltshire, you made it clear that a

:07:33. > :07:37.decision on this matter would have to be taken on a floor of the House.

:07:38. > :07:42.Can I seek your guidance in what should be done now so members across

:07:43. > :07:47.the House can register their opposition to this along with making

:07:48. > :07:52.the case for the continued tse in light of significant disputd over

:07:53. > :07:55.the so-called savings cited by the administration committee whhch has

:07:56. > :08:03.influenced their recommendation to end the century old practicd to

:08:04. > :08:06.print this country's legisl`tion. Surely the legislation we m`ke in

:08:07. > :08:14.this place, the mother of all parliaments is worthy of nothing

:08:15. > :08:18.less? I'm very grateful for her courtesy in giving the advance

:08:19. > :08:25.notice, the honourable lady is indeed correct that when thd matter

:08:26. > :08:33.was raised in October last xear I indicated that as had been the case

:08:34. > :08:38.in 99 that the House would be asked to decide whether to agree to the

:08:39. > :08:43.recommendation of the adminhstration committee that it should agree to

:08:44. > :08:48.the proposal from the House of lords and the decision indeed to replace

:08:49. > :08:52.vellum with archival paper. That was my understanding at the timd, not

:08:53. > :08:58.least with historical reasoning which I've just offered. No such

:08:59. > :09:07.opportunity has been offered and as she knows, the provision of such an

:09:08. > :09:14.opportunity is not in my gift. I should say the arrangements for

:09:15. > :09:16.printing acts and the assochated expenditure are matters for the

:09:17. > :09:21.House of Lords and not for the sales. Their arrangements whth the

:09:22. > :09:29.printers are not matters for the chair. As for seeking a

:09:30. > :09:34.demonstration for the depth and breadth of the support and tse, I'm

:09:35. > :09:41.sure the honourable lady wotld have thought of tabling an early day

:09:42. > :09:53.motion. I shall leave the m`tter there. Point of order. You lade a

:09:54. > :09:59.call last week and I asked the question to the Minister for

:10:00. > :10:04.business innovation of skills which asked in relation to facility time

:10:05. > :10:08.and provisions that are contained in the trade union Bill and whdther

:10:09. > :10:14.there would be a removal of those provisions as well apply to Scotland

:10:15. > :10:18.and Wales? The Socialist worker and newspaper for which you might have a

:10:19. > :10:23.subscription have published a letter to other ministers including the

:10:24. > :10:29.Prime Minister which indicates that concessions will be made effectively

:10:30. > :10:34.taking out the cheque of tile arrangement of the bill. Th`t letter

:10:35. > :10:39.was dated the 26th of January. To say the least this informathon I was

:10:40. > :10:46.given and the letter are contradictory. Could you indicate

:10:47. > :10:49.firstly whether the Minister of State has made a request to clarify

:10:50. > :11:00.these contradictory statements and what options are available? I will

:11:01. > :11:05.say to the honourable gentldman that I've received no indication from any

:11:06. > :11:09.Minister of an intention to make a statement on the matter. I hope the

:11:10. > :11:12.honourable gentleman will forgive me but I don't recall from the top of

:11:13. > :11:20.my head which Minister responded to the question last week yes there is

:11:21. > :11:25.usually more than one Minister of State, name recognition is helpful.

:11:26. > :11:29.In the absence of a declared name I cannot call to mind which Mhnister

:11:30. > :11:34.answered and I hope I've followed the drift of the attempted point of

:11:35. > :11:39.order, I wasn't conscious that ministers had a hotline to the

:11:40. > :11:47.Socialist worker newspaper... LAUGHING

:11:48. > :11:50.... Not yet says the leader of the Liberal Democrats are sedentary

:11:51. > :11:54.position. I read the journal myself and I was a student and it has not

:11:55. > :11:59.passed my desk since I must readily concede. If there is confushon on

:12:00. > :12:02.the matter it is best the confusion is dispelled and my advice hn all

:12:03. > :12:08.seriousness is that he should went his way to the table office and

:12:09. > :12:12.table a written question on the matter, if when he receives a

:12:13. > :12:17.sponsor that is, the fog has not lifted, I have a feeling thd

:12:18. > :12:20.honourable gentleman will ttrn up at business questions on Thursday for

:12:21. > :12:25.an early statement or debatd on that? He is nothing but if not

:12:26. > :12:30.dog-eared and I'm sure he whll pursue his objectives with the

:12:31. > :12:37.fixity of purpose that is rdquired. We will leave it there for now.

:12:38. > :12:41.Point of order the macro incorrectly set in your youth you read Socialist

:12:42. > :12:46.worker. Would be right to come to the conclusion that having that

:12:47. > :12:55.revolutionary journal, you decided to become a Tory? The honourable

:12:56. > :12:58.gentleman may be correct in that surmise, there was a young lad in my

:12:59. > :13:04.secondary school who was a devoted seller of the paper and another

:13:05. > :13:08.young lad who was a devoted seller who has since become a disthnguished

:13:09. > :13:14.academic. As far as I know he no longer it is to the precepts of the

:13:15. > :13:22.Socialist worker, did reading it make me a Tory? Probably. I'm very

:13:23. > :13:27.grateful to the honourable gentleman for his point of order and free

:13:28. > :13:29.sense of humour, if there are no points of order we come to the

:13:30. > :13:34.presentation of bill for whhch the honourable member for monstdr has

:13:35. > :13:39.been very patiently waiting. In foreign.

:13:40. > :13:52.Blood donor equality Bill. 01th of March two reading. -- second

:13:53. > :13:57.reading. We come now to the ten minute rule motion which thd

:13:58. > :14:00.honourable member all of Sotthall has been patiently waiting, he has

:14:01. > :14:09.clear sight of the chamber he can proceed. I'm grateful the ldad be

:14:10. > :14:12.given to establish the rights of schools and academies to ch`llenge

:14:13. > :14:19.the time and the format of school inspections, to peel against the

:14:20. > :14:20.outcome of such inspections, to make provisions for increased

:14:21. > :14:28.accountability and quality hnsurance within the inspection systel and for

:14:29. > :14:32.connected speaking. Mr Speaker, I apologise in advance for my

:14:33. > :14:38.lacklustre demeanour, I havd actually recently had about of

:14:39. > :14:54.winter vomiting, I am anxiots I don't have more to worry about than

:14:55. > :14:57.projecting my voice, Mr Spe`ker stages to be called the Long and

:14:58. > :15:01.distinguished history stretching back to the days of Queen Vhctoria

:15:02. > :15:09.when inspectors like Matthew Arnold fought against the scourge of

:15:10. > :15:14.philistinism in British sochety Historically, it has been torn

:15:15. > :15:17.between the twin, though not all is compatible role of supporting school

:15:18. > :15:21.improvement and ensuring st`te funded schools abide whatevdr

:15:22. > :15:27.standards and rules are currently laid down by the Government.

:15:28. > :15:34.We are witnessing an interesting period of its development. Ht is a

:15:35. > :15:40.huge organisation with 1000 plus permanent employers and a rdmit

:15:41. > :15:46.stretching over the entire school system, nursery, preschool `nd out

:15:47. > :15:49.of school provisions. And the varying and occasional

:15:50. > :15:58.pronouncements and opinions of the head of Ofsted, whether as the

:15:59. > :16:03.result of the modesty or misguided arrogance of Chris Woodhead, is seen

:16:04. > :16:09.as an announcement from the Pope. And the head of Ofsted is gtaranteed

:16:10. > :16:15.celebrity status. For schools and providers, Ofsted is critic`l.

:16:16. > :16:20.Pleasing or pacifying Ofsted is hugely important and they c`st a

:16:21. > :16:25.long shadow over the school year. Because their verdict can ddtermine

:16:26. > :16:28.a school's repeat Asian, future funding, governance, the

:16:29. > :16:36.professional career of its staff, its ownership and very survhval --

:16:37. > :16:40.a school's reputation. I do not want to minimise the real brawl that HMI

:16:41. > :16:44.is have and have had in the past with regards to school improvement.

:16:45. > :16:49.But I do think that we need to flag up that as a country we are almost

:16:50. > :16:56.unique in having such a heavy duty high-stakes, expensive and

:16:57. > :16:59.unaccountable public body rdleasing weight policing our schools. It is

:17:00. > :17:04.worth pointing out that manx of the countries we seek to emulatd in

:17:05. > :17:13.terms of pupil progress, whdther it is ranking or whatever, lack such a

:17:14. > :17:17.cumbersome apparatus. Althotgh there has been a significant amount spent

:17:18. > :17:21.by the government on Ofsted, that is a mere fraction of the amount

:17:22. > :17:28.schools and spend trying to protect themselves from a perverse or unfair

:17:29. > :17:34.judgment from Ofsted. Again, as a nation we are an outlier here.

:17:35. > :17:41.Unsurprisingly, good headte`chers are either diverted or stressed or

:17:42. > :17:44.leave the profession early or pass up opportunities for promothon. We

:17:45. > :17:51.do not actually have in this country a peer-reviewed model of school

:17:52. > :17:53.improvement. Instead of that, we have what can become at its worst

:17:54. > :18:06.the teaching equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition, where careers

:18:07. > :18:13.go up in flames moment educ`tion heresy is mentioned. The wax we deal

:18:14. > :18:17.with this in the UK is clumsy, providing proper value for loney,

:18:18. > :18:21.and it is unaccountable. Crhtically, there is no independent appdal on

:18:22. > :18:27.matters of substance. This bill seeks to give schools powers to

:18:28. > :18:31.contest an unfair judgment by appeal to independent regional pandls.

:18:32. > :18:36.Where disagrees remain, it will give schools the rights to table for

:18:37. > :18:39.inclusion in the final Ofstdd report their response, if they still

:18:40. > :18:48.disagree. Currently, even lodging legitimate complaints is sedn as

:18:49. > :18:53.risky, futile, and very few do it. It is as good as arguing with

:18:54. > :18:57.traffic wardens. In my view, we need to change this culture and `ddress

:18:58. > :19:03.of this imbalance of power. We need a cultural change. It is not as

:19:04. > :19:10.though Ofsted has ever been without flaws. In 2015, they dismissed 0%

:19:11. > :19:14.of their inspectors for reasons undisclosed. It is not as though it

:19:15. > :19:22.has never been arbitrary. The current head of Ofsted similarly

:19:23. > :19:30.announced that a school would be graded inadequate just based on his

:19:31. > :19:35.decision. A nursery was graded as inadequate for e-mailing a picture

:19:36. > :19:41.of a happy child to parents. It is not as though the governments seem

:19:42. > :19:45.impartial autoimmune from political pressure. I am not suggesting this

:19:46. > :19:50.is systematic but it can happen It is a fact that the government wants

:19:51. > :19:55.all schools to become acadelies and the head of Ofsted worked for an

:19:56. > :19:57.academy school. To be fair, he sought to inspect and has bden

:19:58. > :20:03.blocked from inspecting Academy changed by the government, but the

:20:04. > :20:07.only real antidote to the stspicion that free schools and acadelies get

:20:08. > :20:12.an easy ride is more transp`rency and the possibility of challenge.

:20:13. > :20:19.But there is no straightforward bleed across from the data collected

:20:20. > :20:24.to the verdict reached. I h`ve here two reports from Ofsted on two

:20:25. > :20:30.schools in Liverpool, both hn challenging areas. Both with very

:20:31. > :20:35.very similar scorecards. Virtually identical in every respect. One is a

:20:36. > :20:42.school called Notre Dame College and is rated by Ofsted as good. The

:20:43. > :20:53.other is a brutal school sahd to require improvement. -- Bootle

:20:54. > :20:59.school. Oddly, the results differ, with the Bootle school having better

:21:00. > :21:05.results in places. And the head of Notre Dame has been invited to take

:21:06. > :21:13.over the other school based on this judgment. To add to the irony, I

:21:14. > :21:20.taught in the latter school in the 70s, under a saintly headmaster who

:21:21. > :21:24.on stepping down became not a consultant, not even on Ofsted

:21:25. > :21:29.inspector, but timetabled hhmself to teach remedial maths too hard to

:21:30. > :21:36.reach pupils. He had a glorhous sporting tradition, numbering Jamie

:21:37. > :21:40.Carragher and Ukip's deputy leader among his long life. I know

:21:41. > :21:46.absolutely nothing of its ctrrent incarnation but my suspicion, basing

:21:47. > :21:49.on the evidence provided by Ofsted is that Ofsted have little reason to

:21:50. > :21:56.be confident in their verdict either. Hence the need for ` right

:21:57. > :22:02.to challenge. Ofsted verdicts shape the destiny, determine the structure

:22:03. > :22:08.and the ownership and the vdry survival of schools. Not to have the

:22:09. > :22:13.right to challenge such a f`llible system, and it is clearly a fallible

:22:14. > :22:23.system, is not only demoralhsing but fundamentally unjust. Isil love Mr

:22:24. > :22:27.Speaker. The question is th`t the honourable member have leavd to

:22:28. > :22:38.bring in the Bill. As many `s are of the opinion see aye. It would be

:22:39. > :22:45.helpful if the promoter of the bill would with enthusiasm. On the

:22:46. > :22:53.contrary, no. The eyes have it. Who will prepare the verdict? Mx

:22:54. > :22:57.enthusiasm is undiminished. Tom Brake, Greg Mulholland, Mr Lark

:22:58. > :23:10.Williams, Stephen McCabe, Fhona Bruce, and myself.

:23:11. > :23:39.Ofsted inspections schools rights of challenge Bill. Second readhng, what

:23:40. > :23:45.day? Friday the 11th of March, 016. Thank you. We come to the motion in

:23:46. > :23:52.the name of the leader of the Democratic Unionist party. On the

:23:53. > :23:56.timing of the referendum on EU membership, to move the mothon I

:23:57. > :24:03.call the leader of that party, Mr Nigel Dodds. It gives me grdat

:24:04. > :24:08.pleasure to move the motion on the order paper standing in my name and

:24:09. > :24:13.that of right honourable and honourable friends. The refdrendum

:24:14. > :24:16.on EU membership is, of course, one of the biggest decisions th`t the

:24:17. > :24:22.people in this country will be asked to make in our lifetimes. And I and

:24:23. > :24:25.glad that we are being offered and afforded the opportunity to have our

:24:26. > :24:31.say and we on these benches campaigned long and hard whdn the

:24:32. > :24:36.two major parties were against the referendum. We were in favotr of the

:24:37. > :24:43.people of the United Kingdol having their say. And I commend thd

:24:44. > :24:48.government on bringing forw`rd the legislation to allow the referendum

:24:49. > :24:55.to happen. The debate we ard having today is about the timing of the

:24:56. > :25:00.referendum, the date on which the vote will be held. Today in this

:25:01. > :25:07.debate there will be those who will be in support of our motion who hold

:25:08. > :25:10.different views on the issud of EU membership itself. Indeed, on

:25:11. > :25:15.whether we should be having the referendum at all. But we are agreed

:25:16. > :25:20.that whatever side of the argument we be an, ultimately when the

:25:21. > :25:25.referendum is finally held, we are agreed that there must be the

:25:26. > :25:32.fullest, most comprehensive debate possible, which does not ovdrlap

:25:33. > :25:38.with or otherwise become enleshed in the election campaign is happening

:25:39. > :25:45.in May for the Scottish Parliament, the Welsh Assembly, or at the London

:25:46. > :25:54.mayoral elections. I am happy to give way. I am grateful. Dods he

:25:55. > :25:58.take comfort from the fact that the views he expresses have been

:25:59. > :26:02.endorsed by all the parties in the Welsh Assembly, including the Labour

:26:03. > :26:07.leader, the Plaid Cymru leader and the First Minister? I think the

:26:08. > :26:12.honourable member makes an dxtremely important point which I will come

:26:13. > :26:19.onto. There is a cross-partx nature of the motion and the sentilents

:26:20. > :26:25.behind it. This is not motivated by one side or the other in terms of

:26:26. > :26:28.the referendum debate, or ott of a party political consideration

:26:29. > :26:34.because this has the support of such a diverse range of parties on all

:26:35. > :26:38.sides of the argument. I thhnk it is therefore an issue which nedds to be

:26:39. > :26:43.taken very seriously indeed by the government. It is not one that can

:26:44. > :26:47.be lightly dismissed. It is not one that can be set aside easilx because

:26:48. > :26:53.of the breadth of support that it has among the parties and, hndeed,

:26:54. > :26:58.the major parties he mentioned, the Conservative Party, in Wales, the

:26:59. > :27:03.Labour Party in Wales, the Labour First Minister in Wales, and it

:27:04. > :27:06.would be interesting to notd the position in Scotland in rel`tion to

:27:07. > :27:13.the main parties there as wdll. I give way. I thank the honourable

:27:14. > :27:18.gentleman for giving way. Would he agree that having elections to

:27:19. > :27:24.devolved administrations and the campaign for the European rdferendum

:27:25. > :27:35.running in parallel could of the state the issues, could confuse

:27:36. > :27:37.issues when politicians shotld be concentrating on the printable

:27:38. > :27:47.issues of health and educathon and working towards evolving government?

:27:48. > :27:52.-- running in parallel could obfuscate the issues. The honourable

:27:53. > :27:54.lady and I may have different opinions on this issue, but this

:27:55. > :27:58.illustrates the point that we are agreed on the need to have ` full

:27:59. > :28:03.and proper brands of debate which is not caught up in the election

:28:04. > :28:06.campaigns to the devolved administrations. But I will go into

:28:07. > :28:13.that in more detail. I will give way. I am very grateful indded and I

:28:14. > :28:17.would like to commend him and his party for the work they havd done

:28:18. > :28:23.campaigning for an EU referdndum long before it was fashionable. I

:28:24. > :28:28.wonder whether or not the honourable gentleman's consideration of this

:28:29. > :28:33.matter was also the fact th`t there is a European Council meeting

:28:34. > :28:37.scheduled for the 23rd of Jtne, the favoured date for the EU referendum,

:28:38. > :28:42.and whether or not he thinks it would be appropriate for an EU

:28:43. > :28:46.Council meeting, and who knows what reports will be coming out of that,

:28:47. > :28:49.to be on the same day as thd referendum? The honourable

:28:50. > :28:54.gentleman, as always, makes an interesting point which will have

:28:55. > :29:00.been listened to by his minhsterial colleagues with great interdst. That

:29:01. > :29:06.is a valid point. I will give way and then I will make progress. I

:29:07. > :29:09.wonder if his constituents will be paying more attention to thd

:29:10. > :29:14.European Council meeting on the 23rd of June or the Northern Ireland

:29:15. > :29:18.fixture against Ukraine on the 6th of June, and actually maybe his

:29:19. > :29:23.constituents have got other things in their life rather than Etrope is

:29:24. > :29:31.a constant feature in their psyche. -- as a constant feature. As my my

:29:32. > :29:35.honourable friend says, it hs not an either or. People are capable of

:29:36. > :29:39.investing in a critical deb`te, and watching the football and doing

:29:40. > :29:47.other things. If we are havhng this debate because the referendtm is

:29:48. > :29:50.happening during a European football event, that is another argulent

:29:51. > :29:56.Given the fact that so many fans from England, Wales and Northern

:29:57. > :30:00.Ireland, sadly not Scotland, will be travelling to France, it is another

:30:01. > :30:04.good reason to avoid all thd extra costs of postal votes and proxy

:30:05. > :30:09.votes and all the rest of it and have it on a different date.

:30:10. > :30:15.Given that he accepts the good people of Northern Ireland can focus

:30:16. > :30:20.on more than one thing at once, football and politics, surely they

:30:21. > :30:26.can focus on whether they h`ve local elections and a European referendum

:30:27. > :30:32.at the same time? It isn't `n issue about the voters. Nothing about

:30:33. > :30:36.confusion. It is patronising to talk on those terms, it is about the

:30:37. > :30:41.deliberate choice to rush the referendum on most days. I will give

:30:42. > :30:50.way one final time and then I will make progress. It is about lore than

:30:51. > :30:56.the voters who are quite capable of concentrating on the Europe`n

:30:57. > :31:02.Championships which we envy, it is on the administrations becatse ours

:31:03. > :31:09.respect order and the three administrations will be there for

:31:10. > :31:14.ten of the 13 weeks. I don't know if that has been considered? From his

:31:15. > :31:18.very considerable experiencd he makes a very salient points. I want

:31:19. > :31:25.to make progress and will t`ke interventions later. This ddbate

:31:26. > :31:31.isn't about the substance of the referendum, and which side to be on

:31:32. > :31:36.all the substance of the de`l the Prime Minister has negotiatdd so I

:31:37. > :31:43.will pass over the details of that. It is quite surprisingly easy to do

:31:44. > :31:49.so. What I want the House on all sides to consider is the result of

:31:50. > :31:54.the referendum. Whether it'll be morally binding, politicallx

:31:55. > :31:59.conclusive, whether we can settle this debate is for a generation we

:32:00. > :32:05.can of course do that but on the current timetable, I fear that we

:32:06. > :32:12.weren't. I think this is a needless folly, not at least for the party

:32:13. > :32:18.end, there is time to reconsider even now in their own best hnterest

:32:19. > :32:28.in the long term and I belidve they should. Let us be clear, thhs is not

:32:29. > :32:38.about any suggestion that the public cannot choose. That a comprdssed

:32:39. > :32:41.electoral cycle will as somd have said will be too complex, of course

:32:42. > :32:46.people can choose and peopld understand the issues beford them,

:32:47. > :32:50.it is not about their choicd and less their ability to choosd, it is

:32:51. > :32:54.about the Prime Minister's desire that they should choose in this way,

:32:55. > :33:02.in this time and should indded be set up an the referendum so wide

:33:03. > :33:08.June if that is the date of the referendum, no minister has made the

:33:09. > :33:13.case for an early referendul? Ministers have extolled and observed

:33:14. > :33:17.the virtues of electoral colmittee guidance in past polls at all

:33:18. > :33:22.levels, general elections, local elections, devolved elections and

:33:23. > :33:28.yes both the national referdndum and of course in the recent Scottish

:33:29. > :33:34.referendum. So why this house on the public are entitled to ask `re they

:33:35. > :33:40.seemingly intent on kicking over their own past precedent, why is

:33:41. > :33:50.this to be so very different to all that has gone before?

:33:51. > :33:58.Given the congestion of events in May what does he make about the

:33:59. > :34:09.comparative coverage in the media covering the referendum and

:34:10. > :34:12.elections in our own backyard? Very often despite the ability of the

:34:13. > :34:17.public to discern the different issues at stake in different

:34:18. > :34:24.election questions, the medha very often becomes fixated on ond issue

:34:25. > :34:28.and undoubtedly will concentrate heavily on the referendum ddbate and

:34:29. > :34:31.will look very little at thd elections that will be happdning in

:34:32. > :34:39.the devolved regions. That hs another good argument to sax the two

:34:40. > :34:44.should not become enmeshed. Is he aware in Sweden in 94, therd were

:34:45. > :34:49.two month between a general election and a referendum and Denmark there

:34:50. > :34:54.were two months between the general election and the referendum on the

:34:55. > :34:58.Amsterdam Treaty, in Malta there was one month between the two and

:34:59. > :35:04.Switzerland there were 15 referendums in 92 alone, is he

:35:05. > :35:09.suggesting these countries have abrogated their responsibilhty to

:35:10. > :35:14.the general public? I think that is a strange argument to make. We have

:35:15. > :35:17.had elections in Northern Ireland and elections elsewhere and on the

:35:18. > :35:22.that is neither here nor thdre. We that is neither here nor thdre. We

:35:23. > :35:25.have made the point people `re quite capable of stepping up the hssues in

:35:26. > :35:32.terms of what they are being asked to consider. What we are considering

:35:33. > :35:35.is the impact on the functioning of the devolved administrations and the

:35:36. > :35:43.ability of political parties to campaign and work with others if

:35:44. > :35:53.necessary on those issues, the issues of purdah and the issues of

:35:54. > :35:58.devolution. It is about these important issues and when I say the

:35:59. > :36:04.First Minister of Northern Hreland, Scotland and Wales take the decision

:36:05. > :36:10.to write jointly along with the Deputy First Minister in thd 3rd of

:36:11. > :36:16.February, setting out the c`se for a no June referendum and arguhng for a

:36:17. > :36:19.debate leading up to the European decision to be free of other

:36:20. > :36:25.campaigning distractions, that needs to be taken very seriously. It needs

:36:26. > :36:36.to be treated with the respdct that it deserves. We hear a lot `bout the

:36:37. > :36:41.respect agenda and this now needs to be put into practice, this hs a very

:36:42. > :36:44.important moment I think in this Parliament as to how the Government

:36:45. > :36:59.will actually respect the ddvolved administrations. On Thursdax, I was

:37:00. > :37:03.asked to be given any views on dates in June is, they had only rtled out

:37:04. > :37:16.the second and the night, does he think that says something? H come

:37:17. > :37:21.onto the issue shortly, I w`nt to concentrate on the issue of the

:37:22. > :37:23.leaders of the administrations in Scotland, Wales and Northern

:37:24. > :37:33.Ireland, again they have very different views from very dhverse

:37:34. > :37:38.backgrounds. The leader of the SNP, the Labour Party in Wales, the

:37:39. > :37:42.Democratic Unionist party and the leader in Northern Ireland Sinn

:37:43. > :37:51.Fein, a pretty diverse group of politicians with very different

:37:52. > :37:54.backgrounds, but they have come together knocked out of polhtical

:37:55. > :37:57.interest but in the interests of the people they represent in thdir

:37:58. > :38:03.respective countries as leaders Setting aside political

:38:04. > :38:06.considerations, people in the yes side, people on the remains side and

:38:07. > :38:11.people on the Leaf side, with the common interest that these

:38:12. > :38:18.referendums should not happdn in June. The Scottish First Minister

:38:19. > :38:21.has rightly observed any calpaign will inevitably come intertwined

:38:22. > :38:29.with the Stormont election so how could it not? He and I ice dffect

:38:30. > :38:38.will be voting the same way that I suspect. Can I say from the

:38:39. > :38:42.Eurosceptic English point of view, we know our arguments and wd say to

:38:43. > :38:46.the promised bring it on, no delay, don't look worried, bring it on and

:38:47. > :38:54.we can have a proper debate and when this. I very much respect the point

:38:55. > :38:59.of view. As an English Eurosceptic I understand where he's coming from, I

:39:00. > :39:04.hope you understand where wd in Scotland, Northern Ireland `nd

:39:05. > :39:07.Wales, from on both sides. We will wait up the arguments and consider

:39:08. > :39:21.whether his view should be tempered as a result of the contribution

:39:22. > :39:28.There is a phrase in the motion which stands out in my mind as being

:39:29. > :39:32.pretty strong stuff, I welcome an explanation where he describes it

:39:33. > :39:36.being needlessly premature `nd risks contaminating the result. I thought

:39:37. > :39:42.we had originally establishdd across the House that the electorate can do

:39:43. > :39:50.both, I'm not sure how it whll be contaminated. I think it is pretty

:39:51. > :39:54.obvious Mr Speaker that somdthing that the Conservative Party has

:39:55. > :40:02.debated for many decades now and has had concerns about probably when the

:40:03. > :40:09.deal is finally finalised and the teas are crossed and eyes are

:40:10. > :40:17.dotted, deserves more than `n 1 week campaign to discuss in detail.

:40:18. > :40:19.If they are really interestdd in putting this debate once and Frodo

:40:20. > :40:28.won the fullest and most comprehensive debate possible. Would

:40:29. > :40:33.he agree with me that there does seem to be a consensus emerging that

:40:34. > :40:39.people want the seriousness of this position to be examined, debated,

:40:40. > :40:45.devolved and voted upon and that we need to have that discussion and

:40:46. > :40:48.debate unencumbered by regional influences and other issues that

:40:49. > :40:58.will undoubtedly be sidelindd by the media. Which can take place at a

:40:59. > :41:06.time beyond June this year, later in the year. I agree with my friend who

:41:07. > :41:11.has set out the position cldarly. Indeed the Prime Minister hhmself

:41:12. > :41:15.only last month was pretty unambiguous as well about this. He

:41:16. > :41:22.said I'm not in a hurry and can hold my referendum at any time up until

:41:23. > :41:26.2017 and it is more important to get it right than rush it. My fdar is

:41:27. > :41:35.that he is rushing it and not getting it right. I have sole

:41:36. > :41:39.sympathy with the arguments as a Welsh member of Parliament for the

:41:40. > :41:52.reasons of noes and others. Can he clarify the debate on what they too

:41:53. > :41:55.thinks it should be held. -, purdah. In legislation the Government itself

:41:56. > :42:01.have set the end of 2017 as the backstop. I think personallx the

:42:02. > :42:05.longer the debate the better in terms of giving people the fullest

:42:06. > :42:11.and most contented debate btt I personally would be content to have

:42:12. > :42:15.the referendum in the autumn. We don't have to go until the dnd of

:42:16. > :42:18.2017 but we certainly should go beyond June and not have its

:42:19. > :42:23.enmeshed with the elections we have spoken about. The question has to be

:42:24. > :42:27.asked and a lot of people asking, what is the Prime Minister `fraid

:42:28. > :42:31.of? What is he afraid of in the summer which she thinks the voters

:42:32. > :42:37.should not risk see happening over the course of the summer whdn they

:42:38. > :42:41.consider the issue of the British membership of the European Tnion.

:42:42. > :42:47.What are the mistakes he anticipates they will make? What is it he is

:42:48. > :42:53.really worried about? That brings me onto some of the scare storhes are

:42:54. > :43:02.certainly going around sadlx and getting currency. Some of course are

:43:03. > :43:06.simply knock-about stuff without which politics would be much dollar

:43:07. > :43:12.write about. But someone should not write about. But someone should not

:43:13. > :43:15.be casually repeated. In anticipation of our referendum to

:43:16. > :43:20.decide our EU membership on the grounds of what is in our n`tional

:43:21. > :43:22.interest, I entirely acknowledge the rights of friendly foreign

:43:23. > :43:29.governments to say how that might affect them. What I do not `ccept

:43:30. > :43:32.and what I can hardly believe is happening from the mouths of serious

:43:33. > :43:39.figures who should know better is the absurd nonsense that solehow a

:43:40. > :43:43.British exit could in itself facilitate the rise of Irish

:43:44. > :43:46.Republic on terrorism again. It is hard to know what is worse `bout

:43:47. > :43:53.claims that these that they are either criminally irresponshble or

:43:54. > :44:03.that they are logically fattous And exit would not cause any terrorism

:44:04. > :44:07.all exasperated, it is not the UK's membership of the European Tnion

:44:08. > :44:15.decides this. Those in recent weeks who have claimed terrorism would be

:44:16. > :44:22.in courage -- encouraged ard peddling scare stories of the very

:44:23. > :44:28.worst nature. I can only hope they will not repeat them and ard ashamed

:44:29. > :44:31.of them. It is worth outlinhng that in the Northern Ireland aff`irs

:44:32. > :44:36.select committee, every single witness to date has underscored and

:44:37. > :44:41.reiterated what my right honourable member from north Belfast h`s just

:44:42. > :44:48.said, that there is no chance of terrorism being affected ond way or

:44:49. > :44:52.another. The honourable gentleman reinforces the point very strongly

:44:53. > :44:58.and I look forward to reading the outcome of the reports. It would be

:44:59. > :45:02.very useful in Northern Ireland and indeed more widely. In elathon to

:45:03. > :45:07.the Electoral Commission we have provided a body to administdr these

:45:08. > :45:12.things. It is not wholly without default or floor I have to say that

:45:13. > :45:18.it has been consistent in how this should be conducted. It has said

:45:19. > :45:21.that the needs of the other elections in the first half of this

:45:22. > :45:25.year in fairness all combindd to mean the referendum should not in my

:45:26. > :45:36.view the on the 23rd of Jund. In the process. The governmdnt has

:45:37. > :45:40.taken additional powers to determine how the referendum should bd run. --

:45:41. > :45:46.they are not in charge of the process. It is an interesting

:45:47. > :45:53.question that the designation process is still murky and tncertain

:45:54. > :45:58.and I wonder who benefits from that. Before the campaign started in

:45:59. > :46:01.Scotland, both Better Together and yes Scotland had been designated

:46:02. > :46:08.lead candidates for either side What is the point, Mr Speakdr, what

:46:09. > :46:11.is the reason for the government floating its guidelines for the

:46:12. > :46:14.first time? To do so is telling and not in a good way. The Electoral

:46:15. > :46:20.Commission has said we do not currently know when we will be able

:46:21. > :46:23.to run the process to appoint lead campaigns. The government is

:46:24. > :46:29.planning to hold the referendum in June and frankly it is not fair

:46:30. > :46:36.play. It is foolish gameplax. Having taken to themselves to set the date

:46:37. > :46:42.of resignation for campaigndrs and for the referendum, it puts in the

:46:43. > :46:46.forefront of the eyes of sole of their intention to read the process.

:46:47. > :46:49.It would be foolish to succtmb to this temptation. I say to the

:46:50. > :46:53.government, the Prime Minister and his successors will regret `ny

:46:54. > :47:01.perceived fixing of this referendum. We had some of this debate hn

:47:02. > :47:05.relation to the issues around Purdah and so forth. They should ldarn from

:47:06. > :47:12.that debate and also from 40 years of debate among their own p`rty on

:47:13. > :47:15.this issue. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman forgivhng way.

:47:16. > :47:19.On the matter of the advice of the Electoral Commission, can I raise

:47:20. > :47:27.with him a growing concern that the designation process will finish up

:47:28. > :47:33.overlapping the referendum period, and in a letter to me, the chair of

:47:34. > :47:38.the Electoral Commission noted that the commission had recommended that

:47:39. > :47:41.the statutory period, the shx-week process for designation shotld take

:47:42. > :47:44.place shortly before rather than during the first weeks of the

:47:45. > :47:50.referendum period. Early designation would provide clarity earlidr for

:47:51. > :47:53.voters and campaigners about the status of campaigners. Does he agree

:47:54. > :47:59.that it would be unforgivable of the government to allow by sleight of

:48:00. > :48:04.hand this corruption of the designation process? I completely

:48:05. > :48:08.agree with what the honourable member has said and I think it

:48:09. > :48:15.should be noted clearly by the government. They need to get on with

:48:16. > :48:19.this and have this resolved. It would be scandalous if mattdrs were

:48:20. > :48:21.allowed to drift and drag and it would call into question thd

:48:22. > :48:25.government's handling of thd referendum and its fairness,

:48:26. > :48:30.throwing into doubt and givhng cause for people to question whether we

:48:31. > :48:34.have had the final decision on this matter. If the government w`s wise

:48:35. > :48:40.it would want to ensure that once people have spoken on this latter in

:48:41. > :48:42.a referendum, that everyone would accept, on whatever side, whatever

:48:43. > :48:48.the outcome, that that is the decision for this country, taken in

:48:49. > :48:55.a proper weight under the proper rules and everyone will respect that

:48:56. > :49:01.for the foreseeable future. To do otherwise, I think, is short-term

:49:02. > :49:07.opportunism. In conclusion Lr Speaker, we need to face up to this

:49:08. > :49:14.very important issue, the thming of the referendum. We need to dnsure

:49:15. > :49:18.that the government respects the commission and respects the devolved

:49:19. > :49:25.administrations in Northern Ireland and Scotland and Wales, on `n issue

:49:26. > :49:28.of such import we must put the national interest above every other

:49:29. > :49:32.consideration. We must respdct the rights of the people to go to the

:49:33. > :49:37.polls in May and we must allow for the fullest possible debate on the

:49:38. > :49:40.biggest decision to be made by this country for generations, and for

:49:41. > :49:45.those reasons I commend this motion to the House. The question hs as is

:49:46. > :49:51.on the order paper. I call the menaced. I am delighted to respond

:49:52. > :49:57.to this important debate. -, I call the Minister. I should start by

:49:58. > :50:03.commending the DUP's long standing support for the principle of holding

:50:04. > :50:10.a referendum on the EU. The Member for Belfast North has mentioned that

:50:11. > :50:13.they were there earlier than many. Before we get too far into ht, I

:50:14. > :50:19.think it is important for us to remember that any debate about the

:50:20. > :50:22.referendum date needs to be undertaken in the condition`l tense.

:50:23. > :50:23.In other words, to make a statement of the blindingly obvious, the

:50:24. > :50:27.for the referendum is not ydt set. for the referendum is not ydt set.

:50:28. > :50:33.As the prime Minster has bedn consistent in saying, it's

:50:34. > :50:35.renegotiation and then referendum. The renegotiation is not yet

:50:36. > :50:44.complete and so there is no referendum date as yet eithdr. And

:50:45. > :50:48.given that, and the range, the devolved party range of intdrest and

:50:49. > :50:52.asking for the referendum not to be held in June, given that no date has

:50:53. > :51:01.been set, why is the governlent so reluctant not to seeds to the views

:51:02. > :51:06.of the right honourable gentleman? I'm about to come onto the point I

:51:07. > :51:11.think it would be disrespectful to the principle behind the referendum

:51:12. > :51:20.act that says that the date for the referendum has to be said, `nd

:51:21. > :51:27.through a statutory instrumdnt in due course. When that point comes,

:51:28. > :51:31.there will be opportunities to debate that. I will come on to the

:51:32. > :51:37.dates that have already been ruled out for the honourable gentleman's

:51:38. > :51:42.benefit. I will give way and then I must make progress. I am gr`teful,

:51:43. > :51:45.so early in his remarks. But following on from that, we

:51:46. > :51:51.appreciate we are not talking about a specific date, we're talkhng about

:51:52. > :51:55.the principle of certain dates. Therefore, would he comment on the

:51:56. > :51:59.appropriateness of holding the referendum on the same date as the

:52:00. > :52:05.European Council meeting? I appreciate that my honourable friend

:52:06. > :52:09.is an in situ is follower of matters European and he may be one of the

:52:10. > :52:14.very few people in the country who pays that much attention to the

:52:15. > :52:18.musings of the European Council But I think they would be honoured to

:52:19. > :52:23.feel that their conclusions had as much weight with anyone elsd as they

:52:24. > :52:29.clearly do with him. But I `m trying to address some of the broader

:52:30. > :52:33.issues underlying his questhon. Because the renegotiation h`s not

:52:34. > :52:37.been completed and we do not have a date for the referendum set, I say

:52:38. > :52:42.this because I suspect some colleagues may gently and khndly try

:52:43. > :52:45.to tempt me into some hideots indiscretion in revealing a planned

:52:46. > :52:49.referendum date, whether in June or in any other month between now and

:52:50. > :52:55.the end of 2017 when the referendum might be held. For the sake of our

:52:56. > :52:59.collective mental and emotional health, and as well as having to

:53:00. > :53:03.save us a lot of time, I thought I should take this opportunitx to

:53:04. > :53:08.advise any amateur criminologists hoping to glean any clues about the

:53:09. > :53:13.date of the referendum from close analysis to my remarks not to

:53:14. > :53:17.bother. There are no clues. I wonder if the Minister will answer this

:53:18. > :53:20.very simple question. Notwithstanding what he has said,

:53:21. > :53:28.does he agree with the points raised in the letter by D3 first mhnisters?

:53:29. > :53:33.I will come on to address those points in a second. -- the letter by

:53:34. > :53:39.the three first ministers. H will repeat that there are not any clues.

:53:40. > :53:42.To quote Alan Greenspan, thd famously gnomic and opaque former

:53:43. > :53:46.chairman of the Federal Resdrve I guess I should warn you if H turn

:53:47. > :53:50.out to be particularly clear you probably misunderstood what I meant.

:53:51. > :53:55.He went on to say, I know you think you understand what you thotght I

:53:56. > :54:00.said but you need to understand what you thought you heard is not what I

:54:01. > :54:06.meant. In other words, thesd clues are to be avoided. If we do not know

:54:07. > :54:09.the precise date for when the referendum will be held, we know

:54:10. > :54:17.when it will not be. It will not be made the sixth or the 4th of May,

:54:18. > :54:21.because both of these days `re expressly forbidden under the

:54:22. > :54:25.legislation. It will also not be within six weeks of the 5th of May

:54:26. > :54:29.this year as promised by thd Prime Minister. These exclusions `re

:54:30. > :54:32.important even if we do not yet know the exact date of the referdndum

:54:33. > :54:37.because they create and guarantee enough space and time betwedn any

:54:38. > :54:40.other upcoming elections and the referendum to make sure the

:54:41. > :54:47.important issues in each set of polls are dated fully -- debated

:54:48. > :54:53.fully in each case. I am gr`teful to the Minister forgiving way. A ten

:54:54. > :54:57.week period specified betwedn the government publishing its rdsponse

:54:58. > :55:00.to the negotiations and the referendum date, presumably because

:55:01. > :55:04.this House thought that ten weeks was the length of time that people

:55:05. > :55:09.needed to digest that inforlation. Would then be wrong for thrde of

:55:10. > :55:12.those ten weeks to happen dtring an elected campaign that affects 2

:55:13. > :55:20.million people voting in thd referendum a few weeks later? I am

:55:21. > :55:23.just about to come the point. I am sure the honourable gentlem`n will

:55:24. > :55:28.come back to me if I do not answer it then. This issue matters because

:55:29. > :55:39.May the 5th will be a busy time at the ballot boxes. We have only a few

:55:40. > :55:43.-- we have votes for devolvdd legislatures and the middle of

:55:44. > :55:49.London, so I am not arguing that it is impossible to hold more than one

:55:50. > :55:53.election in the same place on the same day. Last year we saw local

:55:54. > :55:58.council elections take placd at the same time in many places in the

:55:59. > :56:02.country without democracy collapsing in a heap and that shows th`t we are

:56:03. > :56:07.capable of handling such a situation comfortable. -- comfortably. My

:56:08. > :56:15.honourable friend from Dorsdt said that everybody is capable of walking

:56:16. > :56:19.and chewing gum at the same time. Thank you forgiving way. Accepting

:56:20. > :56:26.what he said, does he agree that the difference year is that the

:56:27. > :56:30.referendum will absorb the linds and hearts of people throughout the

:56:31. > :56:36.United Kingdom like it has not done for 40 years and that we must do

:56:37. > :56:39.that unencumbered with any other electoral consideration at the same

:56:40. > :56:47.time? I would agree with part of that point. The point is th`t the

:56:48. > :56:52.overlap needs to be dealt whth very carefully and we need to make sure

:56:53. > :57:00.that we are not trying to rtn two things at the same time. Because it

:57:01. > :57:05.is perfectly feasible to have an overlap provided you accept that we

:57:06. > :57:09.have a six-week gap as a minimum between two points. I would remind

:57:10. > :57:13.the House that the six-week gap is the full length of a general

:57:14. > :57:18.election campaign. We decidd the government of this country on the

:57:19. > :57:23.basis of a six-week campaign. And I think that is a very good example of

:57:24. > :57:27.why it is perfectly feasibld to make such a decision. I am sorry to tell

:57:28. > :57:30.the Minister but after six weeks of a general election campaign, my

:57:31. > :57:36.constituents are pretty chedsed off with politics. I think we nded to

:57:37. > :57:40.understand that not everybody in the country is as excited about politics

:57:41. > :57:43.as we are in this place and actually you need a short campaign where

:57:44. > :57:52.people can focus on the isstes and make a decision at the end of that

:57:53. > :57:55.short campaign. Absolutely. Europe is one of those issues which may be

:57:56. > :58:02.extremely exciting to a small number of people are in this place and in

:58:03. > :58:08.the half mile around us, but if we bang on about Europe, to usd a

:58:09. > :58:13.phrase, for too long, I think we run the risk of turning people off the

:58:14. > :58:19.idea of this whole issue, ilportant though it is. Having a decent period

:58:20. > :58:22.of time, which we used to ddcide general elections, is something

:58:23. > :58:27.which the country is used to, and which the electorate is used to It

:58:28. > :58:31.gives us 20 of time for a ftll and in-depth discussion of the hssues

:58:32. > :58:34.that need to be covered but without necessarily boring everybodx to

:58:35. > :58:38.tears and turning everybody off by the time we get to the ballot box.

:58:39. > :58:44.We have to have a gap, I colpletely accept, but that is the point. I am

:58:45. > :58:51.grateful to the Minister for allowing me to intervene. Shnce

:58:52. > :58:58.Northern Ireland remains part of the UK and will do for a long pdriod to

:58:59. > :59:02.come, I expect that the Prile Minister of the United Kingdom will

:59:03. > :59:07.come to campaign in Northern Ireland to remain in the EU. I think it

:59:08. > :59:11.would be very helpful to thhs debate if the Minister could confirm that

:59:12. > :59:15.the Prime Minister will indded come to campaign within Northern Ireland,

:59:16. > :59:21.but will do so after the Northern Ireland assembly elections `nd not

:59:22. > :59:26.before? I thank the honourable lady for giving me the opportunity to

:59:27. > :59:32.commit the premise's diary hn such a way. I think that would be ` career

:59:33. > :59:38.limiting move if I did so. H'm sure he will have an opportunity to

:59:39. > :59:42.respond to that point. I am sure that the Minister would agrde that

:59:43. > :59:45.the decision on remaining in the European Union is at least `s

:59:46. > :59:51.important as the decision Scotland had to take on remaining on leaving

:59:52. > :59:54.the United Kingdom. Their w`r 5 0 days between enactment of the date

:59:55. > :59:58.and the date of the poll. Wd're not suggesting that length of thme but

:59:59. > :00:00.if you are saying ever needs to be a free and open discussion, it should

:00:01. > :00:05.be longer than potentially six weeks. Respectfully, that is were I

:00:06. > :00:08.would part company with the honourable gentleman. While it would

:00:09. > :00:14.be stretching a point to argue that holding two polls in the sale space

:00:15. > :00:27.six weeks apart would be prdjudiced to the results of other one,... Can

:00:28. > :00:30.I just finish this point? Btt because a six-week minimum which

:00:31. > :00:34.would be the minimum length would provide plenty of time for dxtreme

:00:35. > :00:42.and for the third Democratic debates to take place. ... Of I went to the

:00:43. > :00:45.gentleman has prime debated around the chamber that he has entdred most

:00:46. > :00:50.uncharacteristically from a different doors and is seatdd

:00:51. > :00:55.differently, it is not disorderly but it is mildly confusing, I hope

:00:56. > :00:57.you might prime be led back to his normal position in due course

:00:58. > :01:07.because we will also so much more comfortable. With the minister be

:01:08. > :01:15.kind enough to tell us with respect to the date, the final date being

:01:16. > :01:20.the 31st of December 2017, that it would be a slam dunk that wd would

:01:21. > :01:24.not have the referendum chedring the French presidential elections in

:01:25. > :01:33.April and May 2000 and 17th nor the German Federal elections in 201 as

:01:34. > :01:39.well. , firstly congratulatd my friend for sitting in a different

:01:40. > :01:42.mind and a different approach to mind and a different approach to

:01:43. > :01:48.keep us on our toes. I have to confess that on the specifics of his

:01:49. > :01:53.question, that is not something which is then factored into any

:01:54. > :02:00.discussion so far. Perhaps they should be able take that aw`y if I

:02:01. > :02:09.can. The motion also notes the best practice. Reports on previots

:02:10. > :02:15.referendums have taken on board many recommendations such as pre,polling,

:02:16. > :02:20.we also take on board areas such as the recommendations to change the

:02:21. > :02:22.wording of the referendum qtestion. Also the draft conduct regulations

:02:23. > :02:30.which sets out the tough fr`mework for the administration to stop these

:02:31. > :02:37.are only a few of the thoughts. I'm slightly puzzled why the Minister is

:02:38. > :02:42.praying the Government rule out May the 5th, the same date as the

:02:43. > :02:48.elections in Scotland, Northern Ireland and London, my memory is the

:02:49. > :02:53.Government did that unwillingly when they were facing certain defeat in

:02:54. > :02:58.legislation so white is the noun paying this is a government

:02:59. > :03:03.concession? I'm just referrhng back to my nights but I don't thhnk I

:03:04. > :03:11.said that, I said both dates are expressly excluded. This Parliament

:03:12. > :03:14.passed, this year. I'll leave it to chronologies and others to decide

:03:15. > :03:20.whether that was done under pressure or with grace, but nonetheldss the

:03:21. > :03:29.will of Parliament was decided and expressed and was listened to very

:03:30. > :03:35.carefully. My honourable frhend will know as chairman of the public

:03:36. > :03:43.administration Constitution`l affairs committee who are t`king

:03:44. > :03:49.interest, and as a director of vote to leave, can I pressed him on the

:03:50. > :03:53.assurance that he gave the House in September last year when he said, it

:03:54. > :03:59.is important that the designation process means that the decision on

:04:00. > :04:04.who the lead campaign groups is properly arrived at and those groups

:04:05. > :04:14.are clearly designated before the start of the ten week campahgn. Does

:04:15. > :04:20.he stand by that? I remember that clearly. I was responding to a

:04:21. > :04:25.question in making the point. What I was putting across was that I had

:04:26. > :04:27.what I thought was a brilli`nt solution to the potential problem of

:04:28. > :04:43.any compressed timetable should everyone. The original point I was

:04:44. > :04:47.making at that point was th`t we could have dealt with the

:04:48. > :04:52.designation process to negativity which would be made when it was laid

:04:53. > :04:56.which would allow the designation progress to start early and finished

:04:57. > :05:03.before the end of the referdndum period which is what everybody was

:05:04. > :05:11.driving at. The equivalent of the joint committee felt that a negative

:05:12. > :05:15.statutory instruments should be a positive one which has made my task

:05:16. > :05:26.rather more difficult in achieving what we were discussing. I will take

:05:27. > :05:33.if I can his earnest point hs a very strong preference. Tim designation

:05:34. > :05:39.as early as possible, should there be any compressed timetable. To

:05:40. > :05:40.start designation as early `s possible and I'm sure that the

:05:41. > :05:47.various campaigns are already various campaigns are already

:05:48. > :05:52.working on submissions. Therefore were to be necessary he would aim

:05:53. > :05:56.for a shorter and efficient designation process in order to

:05:57. > :06:09.avoid and overlap designation at the end. Does he want to come b`ck, I

:06:10. > :06:13.am most grateful to that explanation but unless the Government ptt on

:06:14. > :06:18.record the House agreeing to the procedure, the consequence of

:06:19. > :06:21.agreeing might be that the designated campaign might not be

:06:22. > :06:26.designated until the referendum has a ready started. I think he is bound

:06:27. > :06:34.by his commitment and therefore if there will be a referendum, either

:06:35. > :06:39.the regulations must be expddited in order to fall short period with

:06:40. > :06:46.which we can start or he was put back the date. I'm keen to put this

:06:47. > :06:49.back but not if I'm designated campaigns will try to stop the

:06:50. > :06:58.campaign without necessary resources and authorities. It is very helpful

:06:59. > :07:02.for him to remind me of my point and I guess the point I would m`ke is

:07:03. > :07:07.this, we'll all subject to the will of Parliament and therefore if the

:07:08. > :07:12.Lords in this case and in their wisdom decide to change the process,

:07:13. > :07:17.it is very difficult for me to be bound by anything other than the

:07:18. > :07:21.expressed will of Parliament. However I do appreciate the point

:07:22. > :07:29.that it would be a superior outcome to avoid any overlap, I think you

:07:30. > :07:31.would prefer to see a rapid process and to started as promptly `nd

:07:32. > :07:37.efficiently as possible shotld that be necessary and will make sure we

:07:38. > :07:47.take that point back and do everything to accommodate. H will

:07:48. > :07:52.omit any other comments abott the various points of Electoral

:07:53. > :07:57.Commission advice that we h`ve been following or not, can I just make

:07:58. > :08:00.clear that the process from here forward is clearly laid out by

:08:01. > :08:05.Parliament in the referendul act. It requires the Government to bring

:08:06. > :08:10.forward instruments subject to a process as we have just heard before

:08:11. > :08:14.a poll can be held. Plumbing of how it will be held which were laid

:08:15. > :08:20.before the House which I hoped regulation setting the date as we

:08:21. > :08:27.have just been discussing, these are not yet laid but when they `re, this

:08:28. > :08:33.is the vote will be able to move at last out of the conditional tense

:08:34. > :08:41.and interaction. For the Government they'll be doing something... Will

:08:42. > :08:47.give way ruefully. Just point to contest the time period. Thd

:08:48. > :08:54.Scottish schools are about to go on holiday at that point and m`ny of

:08:55. > :09:00.the electorate will be taking their holidays. It is unthinkable to have

:09:01. > :09:05.a vote of such importance Joan English school holidays yet this

:09:06. > :09:11.could actually take place dtring Scottish school holidays. I'm afraid

:09:12. > :09:17.I'll have to go back to my starting point about being tempted into

:09:18. > :09:23.giving guidance of when the vote might be, that is not a matter with

:09:24. > :09:30.which we can tell anybody ydt because we do not have a final

:09:31. > :09:33.referendum. And without a complete negotiation neck and been

:09:34. > :09:41.referendum. The Prime Minister has been very clear. He will note that

:09:42. > :09:45.point nonetheless when he comes to that. I will point out the

:09:46. > :09:52.Government be doing something which has not been achieved, something

:09:53. > :10:00.which I and many others across the country have long been denidd. A

:10:01. > :10:04.vote, they say, invoice. And whichever side we are on, whether we

:10:05. > :10:12.vote to leave or we vote to remain, I hope as Democrats we will all

:10:13. > :10:20.welcome the dawning of that. Just before I call Pat Glass, I should

:10:21. > :10:26.point out that 18 back benches wish to contribute and some sort of time

:10:27. > :10:34.it will be inevitable. I know members want to get in and H will

:10:35. > :10:40.help them and recognise the need. With that in mind I will and ever to

:10:41. > :10:46.be brief. I think it is intdresting we are having this debate now when

:10:47. > :10:53.no referendum date has been set the starting gun has not gone off, the

:10:54. > :10:57.deal of the Prime Minister 's negotiating has not yet been agreed

:10:58. > :11:01.if it ever will be. I agree with the minister and I don't think H will

:11:02. > :11:11.say that often, I agree that in many respects this debate is somdwhat

:11:12. > :11:14.premature. Speaking to the lotion... The Leader of the Opposition called

:11:15. > :11:20.for the referendum to happen on the 23rd of June, do she disagrde with

:11:21. > :11:27.him? Now you're trying to gdt me into trouble. I would never disagree

:11:28. > :11:32.with my leader. Can I start with the premise that no case has bedn made

:11:33. > :11:36.for holding a referendum at an early stage. Can I remind the House we

:11:37. > :11:41.have been debating this place in Europe on and off now for over 0

:11:42. > :11:52.years. I voted in the last referendum and it is 43 years ago.

:11:53. > :11:56.We are hardly rushing at thhs. If she won't make any comment hn

:11:57. > :12:01.support of her party leader here at Westminster, what has she to say to

:12:02. > :12:05.her Labour leader in Wales, the First Minister who has come out

:12:06. > :12:11.strongly against the 23rd of June, what does she say to him? Hd has

:12:12. > :12:18.given his opinion and of cotrse we and the Government will listen

:12:19. > :12:22.respectfully to those. Then I want all of this goes on uncertahnty and

:12:23. > :12:25.instability is created in btsinesses and economy and we are seeing the

:12:26. > :12:30.damage being done to business confidence in the UK, the inward

:12:31. > :12:35.investment because of uncertainty and potential risks with a

:12:36. > :12:40.referendum. Those uncertainties increase with the longer thdy go on,

:12:41. > :12:44.this is no good for our country or the economy and regions likd mine

:12:45. > :12:52.were hundreds of thousands of jobs depend directly and indirectly on

:12:53. > :12:56.our membership. I would likd to thank the member for giving way I

:12:57. > :13:03.appeal to her because she and I are going to be on the same sidd as we

:13:04. > :13:12.have a same positive case, H think the words of uncertainty have no

:13:13. > :13:16.place in this referendum. I too hope we have a positive case main but

:13:17. > :13:19.there clear risks the busindss in the delay and those risks are

:13:20. > :13:24.greater the longer the delax goes on. There are very good argtments to

:13:25. > :13:27.support the view that sooner the European renegotiations are complete

:13:28. > :13:30.that the Government should get on with having the referendum `nd

:13:31. > :13:35.endless uncertainty which is bad for the whole of the UK, jobs, growth,

:13:36. > :13:39.business and working people. Moving on the motion is says a needlessly

:13:40. > :13:44.premature dates will contamhnate results. In what way would

:13:45. > :13:47.referendum five months from now contaminate the result if there is

:13:48. > :13:57.every once that's holding it on a specific date, whether in Jtne or

:13:58. > :14:01.April 2017 contaminate results or there is great lesser risk than

:14:02. > :14:04.Ford, lets it because I havd not seen any evidence of this I can only

:14:05. > :14:08.assume what is meant by that is that a shorter campaign is more likely to

:14:09. > :14:14.lead to a stronger remain votes Given that we have had 40 ydars of

:14:15. > :14:20.one side of an argument, we really being told that the arguments are so

:14:21. > :14:29.lacking in substance that for months of campaigning from the othdr side

:14:30. > :14:33.would devastate the campaign? Goes on to say a subject as fund`mental

:14:34. > :14:39.as the European membership should be decisively settled at a conference

:14:40. > :14:44.of debate, I absolutely agrde that we have already had 40 years of

:14:45. > :14:48.debating the UK's place in Durope, this is not a surprise, it hs not

:14:49. > :14:56.happening quickly and it has been 40 years.

:14:57. > :15:03.Third-party set up the Electoral Commission when her party ptt

:15:04. > :15:07.through the political partids and referendums act. -- her party.

:15:08. > :15:12.Presumably the book through advice that the government would argue

:15:13. > :15:15.there should be a six-month period between the regulations on the

:15:16. > :15:18.referendum date which the government has set. Like her I am enthtsiastic

:15:19. > :15:24.to get on with this. What consideration has she given to this

:15:25. > :15:27.question of the designation being compressed with the referendum

:15:28. > :15:32.period and has her party expressed a view on this matter or is it

:15:33. > :15:35.something she believes that she and I should have some discussion about

:15:36. > :15:45.with a view to win this refdrendum should be? I think the membdr has

:15:46. > :15:48.made that point several timds and in many respects this is down to those

:15:49. > :15:52.campaigns. This is not a surprise. They need to get on and get

:15:53. > :15:59.designated. What is the del`y? They need to get on and do it. I am happy

:16:00. > :16:03.to give way. My colleague from the north-east, we both know how

:16:04. > :16:06.important the UN is to jobs in our region but there is another

:16:07. > :16:10.important European date that is almost upon us. The governmdnt has

:16:11. > :16:13.to make an application withhn three weeks for funds from the EU

:16:14. > :16:17.Solidarity fund to help flood victims across the country. Does my

:16:18. > :16:23.honourable friend agreed th`t the government should concentrate on

:16:24. > :16:30.that date first? Yes, I do. I think that in areas like his and line that

:16:31. > :16:37.have been dominated by flooding that is a big issue. I am grateful

:16:38. > :16:41.to the honourable lady for `llowing me to intervene. She will bd aware

:16:42. > :16:46.that the Northern Ireland L`bour Party intends to run candid`tes in

:16:47. > :16:50.the assembly election, whether her party agrees with that or not. But

:16:51. > :16:55.the point I wanted to get to, is the honourable lady aware of anx

:16:56. > :17:00.objections from her colleagtes in the Labour Party to the possibility

:17:01. > :17:08.of an early EU referendum in June? Has heard any complaints on the

:17:09. > :17:10.party? I think that those are internal matters and not re`lly

:17:11. > :17:22.something that relates to the motion today. I believe that the pdople of

:17:23. > :17:26.the UK are easily capable of resolving these issues after

:17:27. > :17:29.debating an issue for five lonths. In the general elections, wd have

:17:30. > :17:33.six weeks of the campaign and three weeks of a short campaign ydt we are

:17:34. > :17:39.still able to come to a dechsion. If the referendum is held in Jtne, we

:17:40. > :17:44.would have 16 weeks of camp`igning in which people could listen to both

:17:45. > :17:48.sides of the case, way up the risks and arguments and make a decision.

:17:49. > :17:54.The motion talks about the recommendations of the Electoral

:17:55. > :17:57.Commission on best practice, and the Electoral Commission has sahd that

:17:58. > :18:04.the referendum should be separate to other dates on which there `re polls

:18:05. > :18:09.taken place, and agreed to stop the holding of the referendum on the 5th

:18:10. > :18:13.of May, 2016. But the Electoral Commission also said that the final

:18:14. > :18:16.act following the amendment needed to provide a good basis of the

:18:17. > :18:20.delivery of a well-run referendum and the effective regulation of

:18:21. > :18:25.referendum campaigners. The bottom line is that if the referendum is

:18:26. > :18:29.held on the 23rd or the 30th of June, this would be over a lonth and

:18:30. > :18:32.a half after the 5th of May elections. I believe the people of

:18:33. > :18:37.the UK are perfectly capabld of making an important decision in late

:18:38. > :18:42.June, a month after open eldctions, to suggest otherwise in my view is

:18:43. > :18:49.patronising and disrespectftl. The legislation also specifies ` ten

:18:50. > :18:54.week campaign period. That leans if it was the 23rd of June, th`t the

:18:55. > :18:58.campaign period, with the attendant regulations, takes place in the

:18:59. > :19:01.middle of the Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish and London elections.

:19:02. > :19:08.How can that possibly be a good thing? I think that argument has

:19:09. > :19:11.been well rehearsed in the House and it has been very clearly agreed on

:19:12. > :19:18.all sides that people can do two things at the same time. I want to

:19:19. > :19:23.see an early referendum in order that this country's businesses,

:19:24. > :19:28.workers and people can get on with their lives in a safer, stronger and

:19:29. > :19:35.more prosperous union with our partners in the EU. Labour hs

:19:36. > :19:39.campaigning to stay in. The European Union brings jobs and investment,

:19:40. > :19:42.protecting the UK workers, environment and consumers and helps

:19:43. > :19:47.keep us safe in an increasingly unsafe world. Leaving would put that

:19:48. > :19:52.at risk. I want to finish bx reminding the House why the EU was

:19:53. > :19:56.established. Up until 1945 Western Europe committed genocide on one

:19:57. > :20:00.another every 30 years. Famhlies like mine and those of other

:20:01. > :20:05.honourable members in this House fought and died in those wars.

:20:06. > :20:12.Whilst I appreciate that thd EU is not the only reason why we now

:20:13. > :20:17.settle our differences around in negotiating table and not a

:20:18. > :20:23.battlefield, it remains one of those reasons. In a world facing terrorism

:20:24. > :20:26.and criminality, we in the TK higher safer and more prosperous as part of

:20:27. > :20:32.the UN that is why we are campaigning to remain.

:20:33. > :20:37.I am pleased to be called e`rly in this debate. There has been a lot of

:20:38. > :20:43.interventions. May I say to the leader of the DUP, I welcomd this

:20:44. > :20:46.debate because there are sole issues surrounding the proposed date of the

:20:47. > :20:53.23rd. As someone who professes to want to leave, I am happy that we

:20:54. > :20:57.are having a date sooner rather than later, but I can see some of the

:20:58. > :21:01.issues he has raised and his concerns. I think it is good to

:21:02. > :21:12.explore them. I think the designation of the Leave group, the

:21:13. > :21:17.No group, for those of us who see us stronger out rather in it, there are

:21:18. > :21:20.concerns that these groups will have less ability to get their act

:21:21. > :21:26.together. In the end, I would like to encourage him to believe that

:21:27. > :21:32.whoever has knocked on your door, in that campaign, whether it is Go or

:21:33. > :21:37.Leave, they will all be askhng the same question. There are only two

:21:38. > :21:40.questions on the ballot papdr. It is not like which political party do

:21:41. > :21:46.you want to support in the general election. The argument will be made

:21:47. > :21:49.by all other groups, so I al not discouraged by that. I can see the

:21:50. > :21:53.point that he is making. Can I say I would like to make some progress.

:21:54. > :21:56.The honourable gentleman makes a lot of interventions and some of us have

:21:57. > :22:04.waited to make our own remarks during own speeches. I am not too

:22:05. > :22:09.discouraged by that although I can see the point being made. If several

:22:10. > :22:14.people knock on your door and say why they would like to make the case

:22:15. > :22:19.for leaving the EU, that will reinforce those views in thd mind of

:22:20. > :22:24.voters and when they go in will help them with the decision-making

:22:25. > :22:28.process. But I can see that there is a concern being raised for those of

:22:29. > :22:34.us waiting eagerly to see what date is being chosen. I note the word in

:22:35. > :22:38.the motion which says something about contamination. I would not say

:22:39. > :22:43.contamination but I would s`y it does give those who wish to remain

:22:44. > :22:47.in the EU a bit of an advantage in respect to the information that I

:22:48. > :22:53.think we'll be coming out l`ter in the year. And I do not think it is

:22:54. > :22:58.the Council of Europe meeting that my honourable friend was referring

:22:59. > :23:03.to. But Donald Tusk said in his letter on subsidy row tape, that the

:23:04. > :23:09.commission would propose a programme of work by the end of 2016 `nd

:23:10. > :23:15.subsequently report on an annual basis to the European Parli`ment and

:23:16. > :23:20.Council. We do not have a vote at the end of June but we will not be

:23:21. > :23:30.aware of what the commission is proposing in terms of subsidiarity.

:23:31. > :23:34.I believe there are are those of us on the Leave campaign that believe

:23:35. > :23:39.we can make that case already and it will be thin gruel for us to

:23:40. > :23:43.consider. I also think one of the things we need to know and that we

:23:44. > :23:55.will not know by June, although I do not know by the end of the xear or

:23:56. > :23:58.any other date. The proposals the banister is currently exploring with

:23:59. > :24:03.other countries include the fact that we may or may not be able to

:24:04. > :24:08.limit benefits. 28 countries, some of which have very, very different

:24:09. > :24:13.rules on child benefits, and some countries have no child bendfits or

:24:14. > :24:17.very different regimes in tdrms of multiple children, so I can believe

:24:18. > :24:21.that that is going to be a linefield to explore. We have no detahl about

:24:22. > :24:25.that but more to the point, it will be an agreement is done behhnd

:24:26. > :24:29.closed doors, so before the 28th of June we will not know whethdr or not

:24:30. > :24:36.those deals that may or may not have been agreed will hold up. And so

:24:37. > :24:40.that is a concern but I am not sure we will be any the wiser thd longer

:24:41. > :24:44.we leave it. Either of the treaties we have in position guarantded EU

:24:45. > :24:53.nationals the rights to clahm welfare in other countries, either

:24:54. > :24:56.they do or they do not. If those treaties guarantee those rights I

:24:57. > :25:00.am not sure how legally binding some of those things that have bden

:25:01. > :25:05.agreed will translate in thd future. I believe that they could all fall

:25:06. > :25:08.apart two days after the referendum but pushing the date further down

:25:09. > :25:13.the road in terms of later hn the year or next year, I am not sure if

:25:14. > :25:18.we will still be any wiser. So looking at the motion about the

:25:19. > :25:21.rush, I think there is compression and for those of us on the

:25:22. > :25:31.Eurosceptic side of the argtment, it might seem that for those mhnisters

:25:32. > :25:34.and frontbenchers finding themselves constrained, they might find that

:25:35. > :25:38.the commission gives them ldss opportunity to cite their vhews in

:25:39. > :25:43.favour of removing ourselves from the EU. On that element I c`n see

:25:44. > :25:48.why having an early date might constrain some of our colle`gues on

:25:49. > :25:52.this site waiting for what the Prime Minister delivers. But that is

:25:53. > :25:57.probably the only conspiracx theory that I can see going around. For me,

:25:58. > :26:02.I believe the public would rather get on with this matter. It is our

:26:03. > :26:06.Conservative manifesto promhse that is actually delivering this and I

:26:07. > :26:11.pay tribute to the Ulster Unionists for their long-standing campaign on

:26:12. > :26:18.this matter. But I do not bdlieve... DUP, I am sorry. I pay tribtte to

:26:19. > :26:24.their long-standing campaign on the matter. But what I will say is that

:26:25. > :26:29.if we push it into the long grass even further, none of the concerns

:26:30. > :26:35.that I have about whether or not we need the treaty change or about what

:26:36. > :26:41.Donald Tusk and his colleagtes will allow us to bring back in tdrms of

:26:42. > :26:45.subsidiarity, we will not know the answer to those before 2017. One of

:26:46. > :26:49.the biggest concerns I have as a Eurosceptic is that we constantly

:26:50. > :26:53.have to keep asking 28 countries what they think. Trying to get three

:26:54. > :26:58.or four to agree to anything is pretty difficult but 28 countries is

:26:59. > :27:02.almost impossible. So that hs why I would like to leave. I do not

:27:03. > :27:08.believe we have the clarity that the members opposite are trying to seek

:27:09. > :27:10.today. The thing I have a concern about is the designation groups but

:27:11. > :27:19.I think they will sort themselves out on that matter. In terms of the

:27:20. > :27:24.May election, I would like to offer a bone of comfort to the gentleman

:27:25. > :27:28.opposite because he mentiondd he thought that maybe the Remahn

:27:29. > :27:35.campaign would have an advantage somehow by going early. I would like

:27:36. > :27:39.to suggest that the Remain campaign may be experiencing voter f`tigue. I

:27:40. > :27:44.would like to suggest that those of us who feel very passionately and

:27:45. > :27:48.strongly, and I might add that a lot of our Conservative associations

:27:49. > :27:52.feel the same way if some of the members do not, a lot of those

:27:53. > :27:57.talking to our constituents as I have and various meetings rdcently,

:27:58. > :28:01.including the Conservative ladies yesterday, a lot of us would say

:28:02. > :28:06.that we will be out there to vote. It will not matter that we have had

:28:07. > :28:10.six weeks prior, we will be out there to vote because we fedl

:28:11. > :28:15.strongly that for the first time I will be asking myself, do I wish to

:28:16. > :28:21.join this European Union as it is, with all its flaws and failhngs and

:28:22. > :28:25.I will be saying no. I will be leaving. I believe the camp`ign to

:28:26. > :28:31.go on leave, however it is framed, will be more agitated and more keen

:28:32. > :28:35.to get out the front door of what ever date it is chosen than those

:28:36. > :28:39.who may feel voter fatigue `s a result of those other collections. I

:28:40. > :28:43.am reasonably encouraged th`t people might feel they have had enough of

:28:44. > :28:47.voting in local elections and all the others and actually sit at home

:28:48. > :28:52.and watch the Romanian rugbx match or whatever else is on. And actually

:28:53. > :28:56.do not think that we will ever get the clarity. I will be sticking with

:28:57. > :29:02.what ever date is picked because I would like to get on and resolve

:29:03. > :29:07.this matter. I do believe that it is a shame that the ministers on the

:29:08. > :29:12.front bench, I do not mean shameful, it is just an issue for me, that

:29:13. > :29:16.they will have such a short time, those of us who would feel that the

:29:17. > :29:20.matter should be seen our w`y, they will only have a short amount of

:29:21. > :29:24.airtime to campaign and put their case across. On that point, before I

:29:25. > :29:33.conclude my remarks, I will give way.

:29:34. > :29:41.Does she remember a few years ago that being told we would have a

:29:42. > :29:44.referendum would lead to economic instability, threats to our

:29:45. > :29:50.prosperity, threats to job `nd growth in this country? Of course,

:29:51. > :29:57.it was unadulterated nonsense propagated by the party opposite and

:29:58. > :30:00.sadly some people in our own party. We have heard unadulterated nonsense

:30:01. > :30:09.already and I am amazed we `re invoking the dead. Lady Thatcher,

:30:10. > :30:15.she is apparently speaking from the grave. I was amazed anybody was

:30:16. > :30:20.invoking those comments now. I would say her speech in 1988 when she said

:30:21. > :30:26.we have not successfully rolled back the frontiers of the state hn

:30:27. > :30:29.Britain only to see them rehmposed with a European superstate with

:30:30. > :30:38.dominance from Brussels. I would say here here to that. I am surd we will

:30:39. > :30:45.have ridiculous comments. A lot of nonsense... I shall give wax. Isn't

:30:46. > :30:48.it the case, if the best thhs day in sight can do is scares and hnvoking

:30:49. > :31:04.the dirt on a cause, -- the dead. I do believe we need to makd sure we

:31:05. > :31:12.have an informed debate. Thd 19 2 Act gives EU presidents over British

:31:13. > :31:18.law. If the public wish to stay in on that basis, fine. If thex don't,

:31:19. > :31:22.they vote to leave. They want to bring back that authority L`dy

:31:23. > :31:29.Thatcher was talking about. The date cannot come quick enough. I would

:31:30. > :31:33.plea, could we please have the argument, not the scaremongdring,

:31:34. > :31:39.the fear factor, the fact wd will move the borders over to Kent and we

:31:40. > :31:44.will have camps we cannot control as migrants pushed their way across

:31:45. > :31:53.Europe to knock on a British tour. It is nonsense, fear, phobic. -

:31:54. > :31:57.British door. To me the argtment is all about control by this p`rliament

:31:58. > :32:06.rather than being controlled by 28 other parliaments via an undlected

:32:07. > :32:14.bureaucrats in Brussels. I point out to the House that 14 backbenchers

:32:15. > :32:19.are seeking to catch my eye and the debate has two conclude by 3:54pm.

:32:20. > :32:24.If we can get onto backbench speeches by 2:15pm that will be

:32:25. > :32:28.immensely helpful. I am in the hands of the right honourable gentleman.

:32:29. > :32:36.Mr Alex Salmond. You could not be in safe hands, Mr Speaker. I s`id to

:32:37. > :32:42.the honourable lady there w`s a time when the Conservative Party would

:32:43. > :32:48.have been more sure-footed on designations in Northern Irhsh

:32:49. > :32:51.politics. I am not making a point about her not knowing the dhfference

:32:52. > :32:55.but it gets the heart of thhs debate and gets to the heart of whx I will

:32:56. > :33:00.support the motion put forw`rd in the name of the right honourable

:33:01. > :33:06.gentleman and his Democratic Unionist colleagues. We are told,

:33:07. > :33:10.particularly during the Scottish referendum, there are four dqual

:33:11. > :33:15.parts of this United Kingdol. Now we have a situation where the leaders,

:33:16. > :33:21.democratically elected leaddrs, of three of the four parts, backed up

:33:22. > :33:24.by a range of agreement in the political parties, have written to

:33:25. > :33:29.the Prime Minister is saying they do not think it is a good idea to have

:33:30. > :33:33.a referendum in late June bdcause it would conflict with the electoral

:33:34. > :33:39.process taking place in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. The

:33:40. > :33:46.people opposite do not think it is a clinching argument, of course it is.

:33:47. > :33:50.If we have a respect agenda encompassing four parts of the

:33:51. > :33:55.United Kingdom. I say to thd minister on the conservativd from

:33:56. > :34:00.bench. He says we are trying to tempt him into naming the d`y and he

:34:01. > :34:04.will not do that because of career limiting implications. We are not

:34:05. > :34:12.trying to get him to name the day, but to get him to name the day when

:34:13. > :34:17.it is not going to be. If I could commend him to the poem, whdn you

:34:18. > :34:25.have mislaid a certain thing, keep your cool and don't get hot. The way

:34:26. > :34:31.to find a missing something is to find out what it is not. We are

:34:32. > :34:36.merely trying to get the government to exclude June the 23rd, bdcause it

:34:37. > :34:41.conflicts with the important election is taking part in three of

:34:42. > :34:52.the four nations of the United Kingdom. When I heard the speech, I

:34:53. > :34:57.was getting encouraged. It was an element of flexibility moving in, as

:34:58. > :35:02.opposed to last week's rathdr foolish declaration of June the 23rd

:35:03. > :35:08.from the Leader of the Opposition. Can I say, if it was a good idea for

:35:09. > :35:14.the opposition parties supported by many on the conservative benches to

:35:15. > :35:20.combine last year, to make sure the government did not hold a poll on

:35:21. > :35:26.the same day as the Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish London electhons why

:35:27. > :35:31.is it not a good idea to sililarly combined now to ensure the ten week

:35:32. > :35:35.campaign period does not ovdrlap with these elections? If thdre was a

:35:36. > :35:40.logic in not having it on the same day, why is there not a loghc to

:35:41. > :35:48.ensure the two campaign perhods are different. Is he really sayhng the

:35:49. > :35:54.people of Scotland, this wonderful country that has played a positive

:35:55. > :35:58.role in the history of the TK, and produced statesmen, engineers,

:35:59. > :36:05.educators, pioneers across the world, that those people ard unable

:36:06. > :36:10.to distinguish between an election for a devolved parliament and a once

:36:11. > :36:13.in a generation EU referendtm? Is he saying the people of Scotland are

:36:14. > :36:20.too stupid to understand thd difference? He dealt with that point

:36:21. > :36:25.well in his opening speech, I am sure the honourable member was

:36:26. > :36:33.playing -- paying the closest attention. There are reasons,

:36:34. > :36:38.including broadcasting, and my honourable friend pointed ott we had

:36:39. > :36:45.540 days of designating a d`y in the Scottish election campaign. Whatever

:36:46. > :36:56.side in the referendum camp`ign you are part of, people cannot `rgue

:36:57. > :37:04.with a 98% Roger -- registr`tion to vote. If the date as specifhed in a

:37:05. > :37:11.dash to the poll, I do not think public engagement will come near

:37:12. > :37:14.that's desirable figure. Thdre is a shabby and slight aspect of the

:37:15. > :37:21.government argument in this. I wrote to the Prime Minister last week I

:37:22. > :37:26.pointed out that I said junhor minister, which I apologise, your

:37:27. > :37:32.junior minister quoted me sdveral times today as pointing to `

:37:33. > :37:36.necessary six-week period bdtween elections and the referendul. While

:37:37. > :37:41.it is a necessary condition it is not a sufficient one and pohnted out

:37:42. > :37:45.the 10-week campaign period and pointed out it would mean the

:37:46. > :37:48.campaign period would start in the middle of the devolved elections. I

:37:49. > :37:54.pointed out the position thd Scottish Nationalists party holds,

:37:55. > :38:00.but despite that fact, the Prime Minister the next day quoted again

:38:01. > :38:03.and suggested that I had thtmbscrews applied in order to change ly

:38:04. > :38:08.position by the First Minister of Scotland. The Prime Minister is

:38:09. > :38:14.revealing how little he knows that lady. Thumbscrews are not ndcessary,

:38:15. > :38:18.one glance from the formidable Nicola Sturgeon would be more than

:38:19. > :38:23.enough to persuade any politician to see the wisdom of her ways. I have

:38:24. > :38:29.never made a case for a six,week period and I am concerned about the

:38:30. > :38:33.10-week campaign. I am gratdful I am sorry to interrupt him, does he

:38:34. > :38:39.recall shortly after he stood down as First Minister, the medi` and

:38:40. > :38:43.Tory press were full of stories that the new First Minister would not be

:38:44. > :38:50.her own woman because she would be bullied by the former First

:38:51. > :38:59.Minister. Another scare story set to rest as my honourable friend points

:39:00. > :39:04.out. I will give way. He talks about how outrageous it would be to have a

:39:05. > :39:10.six-week referendum period, but if the designation of the camp`igns is

:39:11. > :39:14.delayed, some weeks into thd 10 week referendum period, that is what we

:39:15. > :39:19.will finish up with. Does hd agree it would be outrageous for the

:39:20. > :39:23.government to corrupt the process of this referendum by delaying the

:39:24. > :39:26.designation of the in and ott campaigns in the way the minister

:39:27. > :39:38.has suggested might be the case I agree. We also agree on another

:39:39. > :39:46.aspect, purdah has not been previously observed. It has been

:39:47. > :39:51.observed by the Scottish, Wdlsh and Northern Ireland administrations.

:39:52. > :39:56.That period for their electhons and a further period on European issues,

:39:57. > :40:00.would mean the administrations would have a double purdah period. It

:40:01. > :40:03.cannot be a good thing for governments and that will not be

:40:04. > :40:08.lost on the right honourabld gentleman. Can I get to my real

:40:09. > :40:17.concern, apart from the patdnted lack of respect. That is thhs. We

:40:18. > :40:19.have seen the start of the Duropean election referendum campaign and a

:40:20. > :40:26.thoroughly depressing start it has been. Yesterday's ludicrous exchange

:40:27. > :40:32.on which side of the channel is going to be a giant refugee camp

:40:33. > :40:37.just about sums up this misdrable, irrelevant debate. The truth is it

:40:38. > :40:41.does not matter. It would t`ke five years to withdraw from the Duropean

:40:42. > :40:47.treaties and by then we could have ten times the number of reftgees or

:40:48. > :40:51.non-at all. No one knows how it will affect bilateral arrangements

:40:52. > :40:57.between Britain and France. It is a pointless, pathetic, puerild debate,

:40:58. > :41:03.typical of what looks like will be a depressing campaign, the political

:41:04. > :41:06.equivalent of a no score dr`w. The responsibility for the statd of

:41:07. > :41:12.affairs lies with the Prime Minister. This mess is of hhs

:41:13. > :41:16.creation. The time to propose a referendum is when you want to

:41:17. > :41:21.achieve something important like Scottish independence, not when you

:41:22. > :41:25.want to achieve nothing, like his sham your rogue negotiations on

:41:26. > :41:33.points of little substance. He set out the terms for the depressing

:41:34. > :41:40.campaign, to quit the Scotthsh play, signifying nothing. The chance of

:41:41. > :41:44.winning has always been if the campaign is reduced to a colpetition

:41:45. > :41:55.of scare stories, to find ott who can tell the biggest porkies. It is

:41:56. > :42:00.almost as if the Better Togdther campaign of the Scottish referendum

:42:01. > :42:05.have split in two and we have to versions of Project Fear. The only

:42:06. > :42:13.thing these two campaigners will scare is the voters, away from the

:42:14. > :42:18.polling stations. The Prime Minister is gambling this country's dntire

:42:19. > :42:24.European future on his sham negotiation and the shame of a

:42:25. > :42:29.campaign. Even general hackdr would have -- Jim Hacker would have fought

:42:30. > :42:32.a more visionary platform than this. We have to fight a different

:42:33. > :42:37.campaign in Scotland. What people want to hear is how we can build a

:42:38. > :42:40.European future that acts on the environment and faces down

:42:41. > :42:48.multinational power, that show solidarity when faced with ` refugee

:42:49. > :42:52.crisis, which acts against `usterity and respects the nations of Europe

:42:53. > :42:56.and cooperates on great projects, like a super grid across thd North

:42:57. > :43:01.Sea that fight lies is the concept of a social Europe for all citizens.

:43:02. > :43:11.That will be a Europe worth voting for. Not the Prime Minister's small

:43:12. > :43:14.vision of nothing much at all. I am afraid there will have to be a

:43:15. > :43:22.five-minute limit on backbench speeches. It is a pleasure to speak

:43:23. > :43:28.in this debate and so early. I was not expecting to be raised so far up

:43:29. > :43:33.the Bill. Let's take our ch`nces while we can. I have been struck by

:43:34. > :43:38.the fact there seems to be ` degree of consensus on this issue hn the

:43:39. > :43:42.chamber on what should be an issue that is dividing us. We are agreed

:43:43. > :43:48.on a number of things. Not only do we not know when the date is, we can

:43:49. > :43:52.all agree on that, even I could not have telepathic powers at Prime

:43:53. > :43:58.Minister's Questions. We also managed to agree that all electors,

:43:59. > :44:04.be they young or old, male or female, whoever they vote for, can

:44:05. > :44:08.perform the amazing feats, considering two important issues at

:44:09. > :44:13.roughly the same period of time It is a great step forward. We can

:44:14. > :44:27.broadly agree on that. Wherd we do not agree, looking at the DTP. The

:44:28. > :44:32.motion, it states that we are in somehow in a rush. I would dispute

:44:33. > :44:38.the word rush. I had the misfortune before Christmas to turn 40. A

:44:39. > :44:46.chance to look back at my lhfe. Have I want down the wrong path? Am I

:44:47. > :44:53.stuck in a rut? Is now the time to throw it in, to go away and run a

:44:54. > :44:57.cheese factory somewhere? Should I get out of politics now? I light

:44:58. > :45:03.just stick with what I am doing right at the moment. Nonethdless it

:45:04. > :45:07.was a chance to reflect, as I am 14. I was not born the last timd we had

:45:08. > :45:09.a referendum. Not that I did not have a chance to vote. I was not

:45:10. > :45:27.alive at that point. If the DUP had had their wax, this

:45:28. > :45:33.would have been over and done with many years ago, before I had been

:45:34. > :45:39.elected to this house. So I did not accept at all that we are in a rush.

:45:40. > :45:43.We do except that our collectors can cope with that. That goes b`ck to

:45:44. > :45:51.the real reason we are having a referendum, because we want to trust

:45:52. > :46:00.the people, that there are hssues greater than those that grep this

:46:01. > :46:03.place. We must trust the people Collectors are across-the-board

:46:04. > :46:09.capable of making important decisions during campaigns that are,

:46:10. > :46:21.by their nature, a breast. We'll need to think of the French

:46:22. > :46:26.electoral system. -- abreast. What happens in France is it over several

:46:27. > :46:36.rounds matters are faked thd successive round. Yet the voters

:46:37. > :46:40.managed to cope with that. @nd voters are quite discerning as well.

:46:41. > :46:50.We only need to remember thd Darlington by-election of 1883, a

:46:51. > :46:55.Labour Kurdi party candidatd won. A few weeks later, the good voters of

:46:56. > :47:00.Darlington repented of the decision and elected someone else entirely,

:47:01. > :47:06.the current Defence Secretary. Voters are very sophisticatdd, we

:47:07. > :47:13.can agree on that. They can do two things at once. I have confhdence in

:47:14. > :47:20.our voters. There was some discussion over what the media might

:47:21. > :47:24.play. Once again, I think mx voters in Blackpool are more than capable

:47:25. > :47:28.of seeing through what the ledia is up to and what they are doing. I

:47:29. > :47:32.will give way in just this once in the interest of time.

:47:33. > :47:41.How does he respond to the points made by my right honourable friend

:47:42. > :47:43.on the impact on the Prada period? Devolved governments are

:47:44. > :47:48.theoretically in power for ten out of 13 weeks?

:47:49. > :47:51.This is what central governlent will have to go through as well, every

:47:52. > :47:57.single department is going to hurt have to work out how to eng`ge with

:47:58. > :48:02.the European issue during a long campaign and also during thd short

:48:03. > :48:07.campaign. I am left with no doubt that it is one of those imported

:48:08. > :48:12.issues in the lives of my constituents, it passes the stop me

:48:13. > :48:17.in the street test. If I am shopping, I am being asked `bout

:48:18. > :48:20.this issue already. The ide` that we can say that the campaign does not

:48:21. > :48:27.start until we say it starts is rather naive. That campaign has

:48:28. > :48:31.started. My e-mail boxes include many requests already to know where

:48:32. > :48:38.I stand. I do with those qudries, as I'm sure every other member of this

:48:39. > :48:41.House does. At this starting point, when are we going to allow people to

:48:42. > :48:47.think about this, does not reflect reality. We have already begun now.

:48:48. > :48:49.The media will keep reporting it. But I believe individuals are

:48:50. > :48:55.perfectly capable of thinking about it for themselves. They are

:48:56. > :49:01.desperate to have this boat will stop. Many have genuinely w`ited 40

:49:02. > :49:07.years for this vote. They do not want to wait any longer than

:49:08. > :49:15.absolute necessary, they want to vote now, no matter what thdy

:49:16. > :49:21.reserved deal maybe. I recall the words of a right honourable friend,

:49:22. > :49:27.that surely the question now is not who or what to do, it is if not now,

:49:28. > :49:35.when? And now is the time and we must move as fast as we can.

:49:36. > :49:46.Mr Speaker, I will be as brhef as possible. The common market, as it

:49:47. > :49:52.was known, way back in 1957, the 25th of March, that is when it was

:49:53. > :49:59.founded. It did not come into play until it went into operation in

:50:00. > :50:06.1958, long before, believe ht or not, I was born. I know it hs hard

:50:07. > :50:11.to believe. Yes, I wish my own colleagues were supportive.

:50:12. > :50:19.The aims and objectives of that common market was to emulatd what

:50:20. > :50:27.the United States had, open markets, no borders. They were jealots of

:50:28. > :50:32.what the United States had. The United Kingdom joined the Etropean

:50:33. > :50:39.Union in 1973. Just over 40 years ago. So whenever we take thd

:50:40. > :50:46.timescale of almost 60 years of the common market, the United Khngdom

:50:47. > :50:54.has been part of this Europdan Union for just over 40 years. Why the

:50:55. > :51:02.rush? Why the rush? Suspicious minds would think that our hats the deal

:51:03. > :51:08.that the Government borrowed that the Prime Minister and his officials

:51:09. > :51:17.have almost negotiated is so thin that it just hangs by a thrdad, that

:51:18. > :51:23.it would somewhat unravel. Or is it the case that we are going to see it

:51:24. > :51:28.large influx of people from other countries over the summer pdriod?

:51:29. > :51:33.What is it? Because I have not heard an argument yet from the Government,

:51:34. > :51:40.a convincing argument, of why this should be held in June. I whll give

:51:41. > :51:47.way. I don't dispute the chronology the

:51:48. > :51:51.honourable member get in anxway but it could also be about the hnternal

:51:52. > :51:55.cohesion of the Conservativd Party. Could it be the case that the Prime

:51:56. > :52:01.Minister is so fearful of the lack of unity in his own party, he was as

:52:02. > :52:06.short a period as possible? Far be it from me to get into the

:52:07. > :52:13.internal friction is, if th`t is the right name, within the Tory party, I

:52:14. > :52:17.think all parties have their own issues to resolve, so I leave the

:52:18. > :52:21.Tory party to deal with that. But one area that has not been lentioned

:52:22. > :52:28.so much, I have to say, over the past numbers of weeks of months is

:52:29. > :52:31.that of the food sector. We know our farming community has gone through

:52:32. > :52:38.very difficult times over the past of years. I don't stand herd to

:52:39. > :52:43.speak on behalf of the farmdrs' union, because I do not havd the

:52:44. > :52:49.authority to do that. I cannot speak on the behalf of any of the farmers

:52:50. > :52:56.unions in Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland or the UK `s a

:52:57. > :52:59.whole. But I speak to farmers in my constituency, there are mourners of

:53:00. > :53:05.how things are going to pan out for them in the future. It's gohng to be

:53:06. > :53:15.a food industry at oh? Or h`s the Government in itself enough interest

:53:16. > :53:18.in the food industry to help it and encourage farmers into the hndustry?

:53:19. > :53:26.There are issues that need be addressed. The European union

:53:27. > :53:37.referendum act provides for a referendum to be held on thd Ukip us

:53:38. > :53:41.membership of the EU Road... Some within this Government find it

:53:42. > :53:48.appropriate to send the electorate back to the polls within seven

:53:49. > :53:54.weeks. It has been raised that there is a European Championship on, where

:53:55. > :53:59.some 200,000 people will be possibly out of the country. I know people

:54:00. > :54:03.from my own constituency will be across the water, supporting

:54:04. > :54:10.Northern Ireland. But I want to ensure that they are at homd when

:54:11. > :54:16.the biggest political decishon of their day will be taken. I think

:54:17. > :54:23.that is vitally important. During today's debates, there will be no

:54:24. > :54:29.doubt that the accusations have .. The idea that we do not trust the

:54:30. > :54:33.British people to make two decisions within a seven-week period. These

:54:34. > :54:36.accusations are untrue. But for the good of our nation, let alone each

:54:37. > :54:41.about the time and space to study the arguments and the effect this

:54:42. > :54:47.will have on them and their families. And EU wrote referendum is

:54:48. > :54:52.providing one of the biggest political decisions of a generation.

:54:53. > :54:59.Let's ensure the right decision is made, and what ever the fin`l

:55:00. > :55:03.decision, we embrace the new era. And ensured their livelihoods of our

:55:04. > :55:10.elderly, are young and unemployed are changed for the better.

:55:11. > :55:13.Thank you Mr Speaker, I'm grateful for the opportunity to contribute

:55:14. > :55:17.this debate. I congratulate the Right Honourable member for North

:55:18. > :55:21.Belfast and his colleagues for introducing this important topic and

:55:22. > :55:27.exporting some of the genuine issues of concern in a very moderate and

:55:28. > :55:34.civilised way. Let me start by making the observation that what

:55:35. > :55:39.ever date is eventually chosen for the referendum, there were `lways be

:55:40. > :55:51.perfectly good arguments to be made against it. By Democratic condition

:55:52. > :55:57.to the macro tradition in this country... In this is a perhod of

:55:58. > :56:01.emergency, we have elections in the spring, early summer or auttmn.

:56:02. > :56:06.There are good reasons for that It is not good to be out knockhng doors

:56:07. > :56:11.and a living leaflet in the wilds of winter. It is important to respect

:56:12. > :56:15.the past different parts of the United Kingdom have the sumler

:56:16. > :56:19.holidays will stop many people have suggested we hold the referdndum in

:56:20. > :56:25.July, but that would clash the Scottish holiday period full stop. I

:56:26. > :56:31.give way to the honourable gentleman.

:56:32. > :56:35.The Scottish Referendum was held successfully in September thme, when

:56:36. > :56:39.we had longer evenings, one days and people summer period to campaign.

:56:40. > :56:43.That would give is even mord of the time and opportunity he is talking

:56:44. > :56:51.about then a junior date. If the honourable gentleman

:56:52. > :56:57.suggesting that a road show visit from my colleague would entdrtain

:56:58. > :57:01.his electors over the summer, he is welcome to it. The point is there is

:57:02. > :57:08.a relatively small number of period where we can have an election

:57:09. > :57:15.sensibly. Just for a matter of interest, what

:57:16. > :57:21.are the arguments against an autumn date, as specified by the rhght

:57:22. > :57:25.honourable member? I will very happily answer that

:57:26. > :57:30.Firstly, I am not in charge of selecting the date. I'm not against

:57:31. > :57:33.having it in June or September. All I'm saying is that there ard a

:57:34. > :57:39.number of considerations we have to bear in mind. Another argumdnt is,

:57:40. > :57:42.more generally, there is a delicate balance to be struck between

:57:43. > :57:46.allowing a sufficient period of time for all the arguments made by both

:57:47. > :57:54.sides in the campaign properly to be explored and challenged, and not

:57:55. > :57:59.having so elongated a campahgn time that we either bore the electorate

:58:00. > :58:04.to death, or create such a period of uncertainty that it is unhelpful for

:58:05. > :58:09.our economy. I am not here to argue it should be June the 23rd or

:58:10. > :58:14.September the 18th, or whatdver it may be. That is not my job. What I

:58:15. > :58:20.am saying is that a balance of different considerations... Very

:58:21. > :58:28.briefly. In terms of your balance of

:58:29. > :58:32.considerations, where other views of the First Ministers of all the

:58:33. > :58:37.devolved governments in rel`tion to this matter?

:58:38. > :58:42.The issue of the purdah perhod has been mentioned for stop and the

:58:43. > :58:49.potential overlap between the Scottish Parliament campaign and the

:58:50. > :58:52.campaign for the referendum, it reportedly June the 23rd. Wd are

:58:53. > :58:58.talking about hypothetical dates here. I'm going to make two

:58:59. > :59:04.observations on that. The fhrst is, on the terms of purdah, purdah is

:59:05. > :59:10.going to be disrupted to thd usual governance of the UK nations

:59:11. > :59:19.whenever it is. It reportedly in September, it would cause dhsruption

:59:20. > :59:21.to the latticework programmd -- legislative programme of whoever

:59:22. > :59:34.runs the Scottish Government after me. If the national governmdnts

:59:35. > :59:41.could get on without that blockage in the autumn. To avoid futtre

:59:42. > :59:45.clashes, the length of the next Scottish Parliament should be

:59:46. > :59:46.accepted by a year, I would suggest. So the Scottish Government could

:59:47. > :00:01.have more time... I have a limited time left. Also on

:00:02. > :00:07.purdah, I would make the pohnt, I am not an expert, but I hope wd have a

:00:08. > :00:10.sensible debate that if there is a purely domestic Scottish matter that

:00:11. > :00:17.needs to be introduced during purdah, that could in no wax be

:00:18. > :00:22.deemed to impact on the refdrendum, away could be found work to

:00:23. > :00:29.continue. We do have a precddent on this matter. We have the alternative

:00:30. > :00:35.vote referendum on the same day as the Scottish, Welsh and Northern

:00:36. > :00:43.Ireland elections in 2011. H am not arguing we should have the date on

:00:44. > :00:48.the same time, we are except they should be separate and therd should

:00:49. > :00:52.be a minimum of six weeks bdtween them, but we have lessons wd can

:00:53. > :00:57.extrapolate from that campahgn. I have been reading the Electoral

:00:58. > :01:02.Commission report into that referendum in 2011. Looking at the

:01:03. > :01:07.point of media coverage, whhch are a number of members have raisdd, and

:01:08. > :01:13.they concluded there was not an issue. I will read from the report.

:01:14. > :01:17.It said, there was no inherdnt disinclination on the part of the

:01:18. > :01:21.media from Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland, to cover the referdndum,

:01:22. > :01:29.rather the elections there were considered a greater priority than

:01:30. > :01:35.the referendum. I would not worry, he should not be worried about the

:01:36. > :01:39.capacity of the Scottish media both to cover the Holyrood electhons and

:01:40. > :01:46.referendum over the same period of time. Forgive me, I am down to my

:01:47. > :01:51.last minute and want to conclude. As my honourable friend said, we are

:01:52. > :01:56.not starting from a zero base. The European arguments are not new,

:01:57. > :02:04.people are exploring them already and have done so for many ydars I

:02:05. > :02:13.think they are capable of completing the arguments, devolved elections,

:02:14. > :02:19.the referendum, at the same time. In the end it comes down to a judgment

:02:20. > :02:25.about whether we as a country have the bandwidth in government, the

:02:26. > :02:29.media, among voters, to makd up our minds on these and devolved

:02:30. > :02:36.elections at the same time. My judgment is we can. America combine

:02:37. > :02:38.many elections at the same time presidential, Congress, state,

:02:39. > :02:46.referendum, they can do it so can we. This is as many have sahd one of

:02:47. > :02:51.the most important constitutional questions that will perplex the

:02:52. > :02:58.nation and probably once-in-a-lifetime, a gener`tion

:02:59. > :03:03.opportunity to shape where the nation goes. It is essential we have

:03:04. > :03:09.a proper but considered deb`te about all of the issues that affect

:03:10. > :03:15.membership of the European Tnion. A rushed referendum, it will only

:03:16. > :03:21.threaten to present a debatd to the public shaped most basic of

:03:22. > :03:23.arguments, that of Johnny foreigner against what we can get out of the

:03:24. > :03:27.EU. That is not the way to have this EU. That is not the way to have this

:03:28. > :03:33.debate and unfortunately it appears it is in the Governor's intdrests to

:03:34. > :03:38.have a debate shaped on that base argument. To have a limited debate

:03:39. > :03:42.means limited time for a debate and will mean we will not be able to

:03:43. > :03:48.deal with issues that affect constituents, such as trade, the

:03:49. > :03:54.rural economy, social agend` and the important issue of immigrathon. I

:03:55. > :04:00.will give way. The worry of the stay inside that they do not havd enough

:04:01. > :04:04.nasty scares to last until September? I have no fear they will

:04:05. > :04:11.have all of those nasty isstes. We should be proud we can presdnt a

:04:12. > :04:16.convincing and cohesive argtment that will convince many people who

:04:17. > :04:20.at the minute wavering on these questions and that is why wd should

:04:21. > :04:30.take time to have proper debate Like most members, I am famhliar

:04:31. > :04:35.with never, never, never spdeches. We witnessed one on the 3rd of

:04:36. > :04:40.February in this House by the Prime Minister, with his self-fulfilling

:04:41. > :04:47.never prophesies, that none of which are even on the agenda, for examples

:04:48. > :04:51.is not going to be a Europe`n army and a single currency for the UK,

:04:52. > :04:54.that has been ruled out by the people. Nonetheless the Prile

:04:55. > :05:02.Minister has nailed the argtments in the debate to solid wins th`t were

:05:03. > :05:10.never up for grabs in the fhrst instance. We are expected to be fed

:05:11. > :05:14.a diet that is based upon sound bites, not upon substance. That is

:05:15. > :05:18.the point the right honourable member from North Belfast h`s made

:05:19. > :05:25.clearly, and supported by other members around this House, that we

:05:26. > :05:30.want this based on sound, substantive arguments, becatse the

:05:31. > :05:37.public, our public, our electorate, expect much more. When we accept the

:05:38. > :05:41.view that has been universally expressed, that the public can deal

:05:42. > :05:47.with multiple choice questions, that is not at stake, what is at stake is

:05:48. > :05:50.we have a cogent, clear and sophisticated debate that ddals with

:05:51. > :05:57.all issues and deals with them clearly and cogently. Some lembers

:05:58. > :06:01.argued that the reason why we can rush into this is because the issue

:06:02. > :06:08.of security is already dealt with and we need to get on with that but

:06:09. > :06:13.the European Community and DU, has failed on the issue of security

:06:14. > :06:18.decade in, decade out. It f`iled over the Falklands to give ` clear

:06:19. > :06:27.position, it failed the UK whenever we tried to purchase weapons for the

:06:28. > :06:35.RUC in the 80s. And failed to Europe in the lacklustre response to Kosovo

:06:36. > :06:41.and it failed in the Middle East. And in recent months when wd have

:06:42. > :06:45.tried to deal as nations with the important issue of immigrathon. The

:06:46. > :06:50.European Union, with those failings, we should have a proper deb`te so

:06:51. > :06:55.the public can be reminded `bout the catastrophic failures that have been

:06:56. > :06:59.brought about by the EU. Domestically, it is important to

:07:00. > :07:05.have the opportunity to spe`k about the opportunities that could come if

:07:06. > :07:09.Britain exits the union. At the moment my constituents are not

:07:10. > :07:15.allowed to consider the prospect of what farming would be like post

:07:16. > :07:21.Common Agricultural Policy. It is our money being spent on our farmers

:07:22. > :07:26.by European bureaucrats. I want a debate that allows us to focus on

:07:27. > :07:30.where the money comes from here and how we could better spend it if we

:07:31. > :07:36.were not tied to European policy, but we will not have the opportunity

:07:37. > :07:40.to get into that debate. My farmers will go to the polls on the basis of

:07:41. > :07:46.fear they could lose their subsidy, when that is not right. We should

:07:47. > :07:49.have the opportunity to deal with this issue. The Northern Irdland

:07:50. > :07:55.Affairs Committee is currently trying to address some of these

:07:56. > :08:00.matters. Every witness, six or seven, have come in front of the

:08:01. > :08:07.committee and everyone indicated as the member for Belfast North said,

:08:08. > :08:11.this will not be decided about whether you are for or against

:08:12. > :08:17.terrorism, it will be deciddd on trade and other issues. We have only

:08:18. > :08:21.brushed the subject of borddr security in that inquiry but that is

:08:22. > :08:25.a key issue given we are thd only part of the UK that will have a land

:08:26. > :08:28.border with another nation that could be in Europe and us ott of

:08:29. > :08:34.Europe, and therefore we nedd a proper debate about that, btt we are

:08:35. > :08:38.not being given the time. I implore the front bench to listen, `nd as

:08:39. > :08:42.they ruled out other dates, rule out a date in June and move to ` more

:08:43. > :08:50.acceptable date, probably in the autumn. I would like to congratulate

:08:51. > :08:55.the DUP on this debate. It hs a debate of interest to many, clearly

:08:56. > :09:02.not the Labour Party, given the benches are empty over therd. I

:09:03. > :09:11.covered this issue... I am sorry. Two of them. Some defections going

:09:12. > :09:15.on! I hear a rumour they ard in a Trident submarine somewhere, sailing

:09:16. > :09:22.around looking for things. Very wise intervention. I, this issue having

:09:23. > :09:26.supported a referendum, dard I say with a whip on the bench behng one

:09:27. > :09:33.of the rebels voted for back in the day. The reason I say that hs

:09:34. > :09:38.because I was four where thdre was an opportunity for people in this

:09:39. > :09:41.country to have a say on our relationship with Europe. That

:09:42. > :09:45.relationship has changed ovdr the last 40 odd years and many of my

:09:46. > :09:52.constituents want the opportunity to discuss this and have their say

:09:53. > :09:56.again. The evidence is backdd up because in 2008, an organis`tion

:09:57. > :10:01.called open Europe organised a postal ballot in my constittency,

:10:02. > :10:06.asking people if they wanted a referendum and whether they

:10:07. > :10:17.supported the Lisbon Treaty. Given that was voluntary, 13,000 people,

:10:18. > :10:23.over 13,000 in my constituency took part and 11,400 said they w`nted the

:10:24. > :10:28.opportunity for a referendul on Europe, 88% of the people who took

:10:29. > :10:36.part. There is an appetite for such a referendum. Many people h`ve

:10:37. > :10:43.expressed to me there restoration that the referendum could bd as late

:10:44. > :10:46.as 2017. They want to get on with it, regardless of which sidd of the

:10:47. > :10:52.argument they come from, and I suspect many would feel if there was

:10:53. > :10:54.further delayed because of hssues in this motion, that would be viewed

:10:55. > :11:00.with scepticism by many constituents. At the time of the

:11:01. > :11:06.referendum bill going through this house I had sympathy with the views

:11:07. > :11:11.about the referendum being held on the same day as the May elections

:11:12. > :11:17.and I am glad the government agreed to pressures put on. It is clear

:11:18. > :11:22.though two to be separate. To suggest a longer period of

:11:23. > :11:27.separation is needed is patronising. It is not as though the Europe

:11:28. > :11:32.debate has not been going on for years and years. All of those who

:11:33. > :11:37.are for or against the partnership in Europe have been making points

:11:38. > :11:43.eloquently over the past fotr decades. In addition, the government

:11:44. > :11:50.has committed that there will be at least a six-week period between ..

:11:51. > :12:01.referendum. That seems to md to be referendum. That seems to md to be

:12:02. > :12:02.weeks you cannot... Those c`mpaigns weeks you cannot... Those c`mpaigns

:12:03. > :12:07.cannot get their message across there may be it is those calpaigns

:12:08. > :12:14.that need to ask themselves serious questions, and not my consthtuents,

:12:15. > :12:18.who I think have more ability to understand the issues debatdd. There

:12:19. > :12:21.is history here. At the European referendum that was held, it was

:12:22. > :12:29.only one month after completion of the legislation. The AV refdrendum

:12:30. > :12:33.had plenty of time to discuss the issues, and being on the doorstep, I

:12:34. > :12:42.know many people understood what was being asked. The issue of sdparating

:12:43. > :12:46.these issues, I refer back to my patronising point, yes, the

:12:47. > :12:50.elections in May are import`nt. There are people in Wales electing

:12:51. > :12:56.people to the assembly, in Scotland to the parliament, there will be

:12:57. > :12:59.mayoral elections, Northern Ireland elections, and in my constituency

:13:00. > :13:01.people will have to vote for their local councillors and policd and

:13:02. > :13:08.crime commissioners. I know my crime commissioners. I know my

:13:09. > :13:12.constituents. They are more than capable of separating the issue and

:13:13. > :13:18.campaigns, particularly as they are six weeks apart. Last May they were

:13:19. > :13:21.able to differentiate betwedn electing a Member of Parlialent a

:13:22. > :13:26.local councillor and parish councillor, all on the same day

:13:27. > :13:31.knowing they were doing different offices. They understood thd

:13:32. > :13:36.difference. In addition, those people calling for a delay because

:13:37. > :13:40.people will be confused, I `m afraid assume all they are thinking about

:13:41. > :13:44.is the next election and referendum. I envy them because those pdople, my

:13:45. > :13:50.constituents, have lives to get on with. They have other things to

:13:51. > :13:56.think about, they are not obsessed with the referendum like we may be

:13:57. > :14:00.here. Six weeks plus is plenty of time in my view. They will be able

:14:01. > :14:05.to make a decision on what they want their future relationship whth

:14:06. > :14:09.Europe to be. If it were to be prolonged, I fear it would switch

:14:10. > :14:15.many people off. I come herd as someone born in Wales, whosd father

:14:16. > :14:19.is Scottish, whose mother is English, so I respect every part of

:14:20. > :14:22.this nation and I know everx part of this nation are like my

:14:23. > :14:31.constituents, they have the ability to understand the differencd. The

:14:32. > :14:33.88% who voted in 2008 in my constituency, wanting a refdrendum,

:14:34. > :14:37.should be given the opportunity to do so and who am I or anybody else

:14:38. > :14:42.in this chamber to deny thel that opportunity, and credit thel with

:14:43. > :14:48.the ability to separate two different voting responsibilities?

:14:49. > :14:55.First of all, thank you for calling me to speak, but also thank you to

:14:56. > :15:01.the honourable member for Bdlfast North forgiving us the opportunity

:15:02. > :15:06.to debate this today. This hs our opportunity, the Government's

:15:07. > :15:11.opportunity to put the respdct agenda into practice. On thd 3rd of

:15:12. > :15:15.February, as the honourable member for Gordon pointed out we h`d a

:15:16. > :15:20.letter, not just from the Fhrst Minister of Scotland, but also from

:15:21. > :15:26.the First Minister and Deputy First Minister of Northern Ireland, and

:15:27. > :15:30.also the First Minister of Wales as well, all of whom hold very

:15:31. > :15:36.different views about when the referendum should be, as well as a

:15:37. > :15:40.whole range of other issues. As we go down, we see backing frol members

:15:41. > :15:45.of every party in this Housd on the referendum. Madam Speaker,

:15:46. > :15:50.democratic representation does not begin and end in this place. It is

:15:51. > :15:54.not just this place which t`kes decisions which affect the

:15:55. > :16:00.day-to-day lives of our cithzens. Issues like health, education and

:16:01. > :16:03.transport will be debated on by something north of 20 million voters

:16:04. > :16:08.across the United Kingdom. Ht is also nothing to do with minor

:16:09. > :16:16.sporting events such as the European football Championships - or major

:16:17. > :16:21.sporting events such as Andx Murray defending his title at the Pueen's

:16:22. > :16:27.Club! What it should have more to do with than anything else, is that it

:16:28. > :16:31.is for the Government and those others who wish to vote in the

:16:32. > :16:35.European union to have the courage of our convictions to put this to a

:16:36. > :16:39.thorough democratic test. That is not just mean rushing at thhs

:16:40. > :16:43.referendum within six weeks, it means having a balanced and fair

:16:44. > :16:48.opportunity to debate this hmportant issue. That is why throughott the EU

:16:49. > :16:54.Referendum Bill we want a f`ir and level playing field. We would be

:16:55. > :16:58.more than happy to work with colleagues across this housd on the

:16:59. > :17:02.date of the referendum. The honourable member for Glasgow North

:17:03. > :17:06.pointed out, as I did last week that the independence referdndum

:17:07. > :17:11.called by my right number friend the member for Gordon had 545 d`ys

:17:12. > :17:21.before it was eventually held. I give way. Does the honour`ble

:17:22. > :17:27.member agree with me about the point made on the impact that the autumn

:17:28. > :17:30.date of the Scottish Referendum took place, allowing debates to take

:17:31. > :17:35.place jarring good weather on long days and there is a lot to be said

:17:36. > :17:40.for the sort of date? My colleague makes a good point and

:17:41. > :17:44.one that I hope the Governmdnt will take into account. In Scotl`nd,

:17:45. > :17:48.those who campaigned for Yes and there is a campaign for Notd should

:17:49. > :17:54.be commended for having one of the great democratic debate set anywhere

:17:55. > :17:59.in the UK has seen. Part of that was that we had a long-running, we have

:18:00. > :18:03.the summer time to debate that. I hope the members on these p`ges will

:18:04. > :18:07.listen to that and I hope they will listen to my right on friend the

:18:08. > :18:16.member for to lead the debate for that time. And also about the ten

:18:17. > :18:22.week period that the member frequent office raised, something th`t is not

:18:23. > :18:24.adequately raised by the government benches, I hope that somethhng the

:18:25. > :18:34.Minister will tackle when hd are summing up. On the point about being

:18:35. > :18:37.a positive campaign, I want to see a positive campaign. I'm disappointed

:18:38. > :18:41.in some of the words I have heard from the Government side and the

:18:42. > :18:46.Labour side. We want to movd forward in a positive debate about the

:18:47. > :18:53.impact that Europe can bring. Think about running phone chargers, think

:18:54. > :19:00.about worker' writes. We must always be mindful of this- this has not

:19:01. > :19:04.been clear throughout this debate- where the role of the Government

:19:05. > :19:11.begins and with the role of the European union begins. It w`s not

:19:12. > :19:15.the European Union who described Scotland's fishermen as being in the

:19:16. > :19:19.broader European union is bding expendable. It was not the Duropean

:19:20. > :19:24.Union who bring them to dam`ging policies when it comes to Scotland's

:19:25. > :19:27.renewable industry. It was not the European union has given Scotland's

:19:28. > :19:31.farmers at the lowest farmers payment in the whole of the European

:19:32. > :19:34.Union. These were the fault of the member states, and the way the

:19:35. > :19:37.member state chose to exerchse its membership of the European Tnion.

:19:38. > :19:42.These are all issues we will be bringing to the fore during this

:19:43. > :19:48.debate. Let's think about areas were hired European Corporation, where,

:19:49. > :19:52.actually, European cooperathon is much closer to Scotland's opinion

:19:53. > :19:58.than this Government ever could be. Look at the refugee crisis, the

:19:59. > :20:01.worst since the Second World War, and the UK Government is not

:20:02. > :20:06.stepping up as the Northern Irish government has. In climate change,

:20:07. > :20:10.where Scotland is leading the charge. In renewables, as I

:20:11. > :20:18.mentioned. And that is look at security issues. All these huge

:20:19. > :20:22.challenges as a European unhon block. No member state can challenge

:20:23. > :20:25.these alone. So might appeal to this house would be that we do not want

:20:26. > :20:31.to see any scaremongering. Xou want to see a rerun of Project Fdar,

:20:32. > :20:36.because that is the way thex can guess I'd will lose this referendum.

:20:37. > :20:40.What we want to see is a positive debate, but we also want to see a

:20:41. > :20:43.debate that runs beyond the summertime, possibly in September,

:20:44. > :20:49.and that is why I will be b`cking the DUP's motion this afternoon

:20:50. > :20:55.I'm grateful for this opportunity to speak in this debate, and grateful

:20:56. > :20:58.to the right Honourable member for Belfast North for securing this

:20:59. > :21:05.debate. It is a very import`nt subject. Clearly, the timing of the

:21:06. > :21:11.debate and issue is something of concern to my colleagues. I tend to

:21:12. > :21:17.find that my views are norm`lly once were I agree, most of the thme with

:21:18. > :21:22.my colleagues in the DUP. I think we do agree on one very import`nt

:21:23. > :21:26.thing, that it is important that we now take this referendum to the

:21:27. > :21:31.public so they can have thehr say. It is a once in a generation

:21:32. > :21:35.opportunity. But I do disagree with him today and will not be stpporting

:21:36. > :21:38.him on the issue of timing. I think there will be enough time, H think

:21:39. > :21:44.the Prime Minister has set out clearly legislation and there will

:21:45. > :21:47.be time for people to think. Anything that will be enough

:21:48. > :21:52.information for people to m`ke the mind up as well. That makes them I

:21:53. > :21:56.will not be supporting it. Other colleagues already mentioned the

:21:57. > :22:01.subject of the referendum, the aim of the Conservative Party, to hold a

:22:02. > :22:06.referendum is not exactly the best kept secret on the planet. Hndeed,

:22:07. > :22:08.during the last election, m`ny of us on this side of the house and

:22:09. > :22:14.probably on the other side `s well talked about the referendum during

:22:15. > :22:20.the election, it was an Arab manifesto. It was certainly in my

:22:21. > :22:25.manifesto materials. I think it is time for the subject be put to the

:22:26. > :22:29.British public. In fact, I remember very distinctly during the last

:22:30. > :22:32.Parliament, we were able to debate this issue extensively. Even though

:22:33. > :22:37.we were in a coalition government at the time, we on this side of the

:22:38. > :22:43.house, but acquit myself and my colleagues in this party, and the

:22:44. > :22:47.mechanism to have the debatd through private members bills. Basically

:22:48. > :22:54.those bits forward by our honourable colleague the member for Stockton

:22:55. > :22:57.South. Private members bills were put forward, seeking a debate on the

:22:58. > :23:11.subject, even though we werd constrained within the coalhtion.

:23:12. > :23:17.Many other ministers during 2014-15,... This was an isste for

:23:18. > :23:24.debate, agitating to our colleagues. They wanted to talk about Etrope and

:23:25. > :23:28.they did. It was also clear, through parliamentary discussion, there was

:23:29. > :23:32.a wider debate taking place as well. These reports, TV programmes going

:23:33. > :23:38.on about it. I did detect at least one or two tweets on the subject as

:23:39. > :23:42.well. This would not be a strprise Ahmed has been well trailed for stop

:23:43. > :23:49.and think it is important to address the concerns that forward in this

:23:50. > :23:55.motion head-on. We do need to have the debate more quickly than not. I

:23:56. > :24:01.listen carefully to what thd honourable member for Belfast North

:24:02. > :24:07.said. I believe this concerns for members on the other side of house

:24:08. > :24:16.are sincere, I think there `re overstated. Several years ago I was

:24:17. > :24:20.in a shopping centre, I was in a rush, I had to get to a meeting and

:24:21. > :24:23.had to move quickly. I had to make a quick decision about which dscalator

:24:24. > :24:29.I should go up to get to thhs meeting. I ran as fast as I could,

:24:30. > :24:34.and it became pretty obvious I had chosen the wrong escalator, and I

:24:35. > :24:39.was running up the down esc`lator. One lady who looked mesmerised the

:24:40. > :24:44.spectacle looked at me, she looked me in the eye and said, that is what

:24:45. > :24:50.comes from rushing. I have never forgotten that. Rushing is when you

:24:51. > :24:54.have to deal with decisions in split seconds. I assure the house, this is

:24:55. > :24:58.not about rushing, this is `bout having a conversation and ddbate

:24:59. > :25:07.over weeks and indeed months. In fact,... I will give way.

:25:08. > :25:12.I am grappling to the escal`tor analogy as to which side it

:25:13. > :25:19.supports. If six weeks is enough, why does the legislation express it

:25:20. > :25:25.ten week campaign for the -, period for the campaign.

:25:26. > :25:30.We know that if the Prime Mhnister is successful in securing the

:25:31. > :25:33.negotiation, and if he is mhnded to put forward it for the referendum,

:25:34. > :25:39.there will be challenges in terms of multiple debates going on. H do not

:25:40. > :25:46.think, like the Honourable lember for North Lanarkshire, we t`lked

:25:47. > :25:57.about more model for choice --. About multiple choice is gohng on.

:25:58. > :26:04.There are two separate decisions, well set out however, and I do not

:26:05. > :26:09.think... If the Prime Minister does choose to go with the timescales

:26:10. > :26:13.that has set out, it will bd seven weeks between the elections and

:26:14. > :26:18.referendums. Indeed, it will be 17 weeks between the decision being

:26:19. > :26:21.made to progress with the rdferendum and then the referendum itsdlf being

:26:22. > :26:29.held. 17 weeks to have that discussion. If you compare that to

:26:30. > :26:35.what happened in previous rdferenda, there was just one month in 19 1.

:26:36. > :26:38.Some are taught about the alternative vote referendum which

:26:39. > :26:44.are back in our town say. Three months to have the debate. @nd the

:26:45. > :26:48.Prime Minister has offered lore I do believe that there is tile and

:26:49. > :26:51.the electorate will be able to separate their thoughts between

:26:52. > :26:56.whatever the issues may be hn Northern Ireland and Scotland and

:26:57. > :26:59.the referendum. So I think that for these reasons, I support those from

:27:00. > :27:08.all sides of the debate, whdther they are in or out in this

:27:09. > :27:10.particular debate, that's the clearest opportunity and thd

:27:11. > :27:17.earliest opportunity to havd this referendum.

:27:18. > :27:22.They are highly congratulatd my colleagues and the member for North

:27:23. > :27:26.Belfast for raising the isste today. I do agree with's not having the

:27:27. > :27:29.referendum too soon, but not necessarily for the same re`sons.

:27:30. > :27:35.June seems far too early for stop autumn seems more sensible, or

:27:36. > :27:43.later. Because I do feel we have to give the public time to unddrstand

:27:44. > :27:51.all the pros and cons. The who are, just to be clear, very diffdrent

:27:52. > :28:00.from the DUP, have consistently said they want to see membership reforms.

:28:01. > :28:06.Defra we have to have the f`cts and details search we can decidd.

:28:07. > :28:09.Therefore it is good to see the referendum happening, but wd need to

:28:10. > :28:15.see it later. But what I wotld ask is that when everybody involved

:28:16. > :28:21.makes a decision, that they think of the whole union, and not just your

:28:22. > :28:25.small part of the United Kingdom. It has to be something that works for

:28:26. > :28:29.all of us. That is why I we`ve a clear message today, can we make

:28:30. > :28:38.sure that you think of how ht benefits...

:28:39. > :28:42.I just think that it is verx important that we keep the new unit

:28:43. > :28:48.in mind when we make our decisions in the future. What saddens me is

:28:49. > :28:54.that 42% of those polled last week work for leaving. 38 cents `t the

:28:55. > :28:59.rougher staying. They have `lready made their minds up. They h`ve not

:29:00. > :29:07.even had the facts. -- 38% `re for staying. On the escalator points, I

:29:08. > :29:16.am a science fiction fan. I'm a fan of Dr Who or even Star Trek. We want

:29:17. > :29:20.to make a decision, and everyone is charging towards the Tardis, which

:29:21. > :29:25.never knows when it is going forward or backwards where it will land We

:29:26. > :29:28.are going into the unknown. I want the electorate to know and

:29:29. > :29:34.understand what they are voting for. That is why today I am asking that

:29:35. > :29:41.we keep the Tardis in mind `ll the way through. And maybe if I can mix

:29:42. > :29:42.metaphors are even science fiction series, it is about going where no

:29:43. > :30:27.man has gone before. Already, I am been asked more

:30:28. > :30:31.questions about the European Union then with the assembly is going to

:30:32. > :30:39.be in the future. I want to see us looking at it so we have thd facts

:30:40. > :30:42.in front of us. It does not mean necessarily leading to us staying

:30:43. > :30:46.in, though that is where I would persevere at the moment. I want to

:30:47. > :30:50.know the risk factors, I want to know how good things could be for us

:30:51. > :30:54.if we leave. But at the momdnt, if I look at so many of the other things

:30:55. > :30:57.going on in the world, if you look at how the Chinese economy has

:30:58. > :31:03.changed Wallach back in the past at Lehman Brothers, Enron, the great

:31:04. > :31:09.USA Hope, look what I did to our country. I want to know what we are

:31:10. > :31:15.tying ourselves to in the ftture. We must have the facts. If you look at

:31:16. > :31:19.the leadership debates, does that give you confidence of wherd we are

:31:20. > :31:24.going in the future? We need to know. As others have said, hn

:31:25. > :31:29.Northern Ireland, agriculture is anomaly important. 230 millhon, it

:31:30. > :31:36.means to us. -- phenomenallx important. We need to know how this

:31:37. > :31:40.will work in future, how we can keep Northern Ireland's agriculttral

:31:41. > :31:47.economy. That is why today H agree with the motion does just ldtters

:31:48. > :31:52.make sure we have the facts, that takes time, time is what were asking

:31:53. > :31:56.for. Let's make sure we get the facts and those of us who w`nt to go

:31:57. > :32:01.and watch Northern Ireland play - and must admit I had tickets to get

:32:02. > :32:09.into last 16, so come on, Northern Ireland, let's get the facts.

:32:10. > :32:14.It is a pleasure to follow the Honourable member and his extreme

:32:15. > :32:19.optimism for Northern Ireland reaching the final 16. Ie too shall

:32:20. > :32:27.be cheering on Northern Ireland and wishing them all the best for stop

:32:28. > :32:33.it is always a pleasure to take part in a DUP motion. I know thex are

:32:34. > :32:40.going to challenge me quite a lot. I am of a mind to support DUP motion

:32:41. > :32:43.is, as they are very often sensible and this is no exception. I think it

:32:44. > :32:49.is a very important debate that we are having. At the same timd you

:32:50. > :32:54.have to recognise that this is a debate so Nolan has announcdd this

:32:55. > :32:59.date, we are purely expected waiting in this chamber about possible dates

:33:00. > :33:01.and outcomes, and implications that any of this possible dates lay have

:33:02. > :33:46.at some point in the future. I was three when the last ddcision

:33:47. > :33:54.was made, that suggests we `re rushing towards a referendul that

:33:55. > :33:56.would frankly be viewed as laughable in my constituency. My constituents

:33:57. > :34:00.are bouncing off the wall whth delight that they are going to have

:34:01. > :34:04.this referendum finally put in front of us so we can put to bed `

:34:05. > :34:08.relationship with the Europdan Union, once again, for a generation,

:34:09. > :34:51.whichever way they are minddd to vote.

:34:52. > :34:54.need to have that consideration I have confidence. I will just Nish

:34:55. > :34:57.this point. I have confidence in the ability of my constituents `nd the

:34:58. > :35:14.honourable gentleman's to sdparate those

:35:15. > :35:20.if the member will not access to the points raised by members from

:35:21. > :35:25.Scotland, Northern Ireland `nd Wales, will he access the opinions

:35:26. > :35:29.from those in England who do not want it in June because of the local

:35:30. > :35:32.authority elections? It shotld be clear, I give no more weight to

:35:33. > :35:40.English opinion than a Scottish opinion. I recognise the pohnts he

:35:41. > :35:45.is making. What I am saying to colleagues on the SNP benchds, I

:35:46. > :35:49.think our constituents have the ability to separate out those

:35:50. > :35:54.issues, they have an abilitx to understand the decisions thdy are

:35:55. > :35:59.making, who will govern in Scotland, who will govern in Wales, who will

:36:00. > :36:02.be the next Mayor of London, and whether our relationship with the EU

:36:03. > :36:14.should change, remain the s`me, or we should completely come ott. I

:36:15. > :36:18.will give way. Many people hn his constituency and mine would rather

:36:19. > :36:23.see the referendum separate from local elections, he knows that as

:36:24. > :36:27.much as I do. The good news is they will be separate from the local

:36:28. > :36:33.elections, that is the good news, they will be at least six wdeks

:36:34. > :36:40.apart. At the risk of bursthng his bubble, I have to say that whilst

:36:41. > :36:44.many people in this place are very focused on political issues, many of

:36:45. > :36:48.my constituents are going about their normal business, they are

:36:49. > :36:51.thinking about paying the mortgage, where they will go on holid`y,

:36:52. > :36:55.whether their children will get into the school of their choice. Europe

:36:56. > :37:03.is not as high on the polithcal agenda as it is for some in this

:37:04. > :37:08.place. We will at some point be told the date of the referendum. We can

:37:09. > :37:14.then have six weeks of camp`igning to establish which way we w`nt to

:37:15. > :37:19.vote in that referendum. By the end of those six weeks, I guarantee our

:37:20. > :37:28.constituents will be fed up to the back teeth of the debate. I will

:37:29. > :37:33.give way. He is very generots. We keep hearing the story that people

:37:34. > :37:38.get fed up after a three, four-month campaign. Some people are fdd up

:37:39. > :37:44.after a three-hour debate. Why do Conservative MPs never referred to

:37:45. > :37:50.the last referendum we had, after a campaign of 500 days, peopld were

:37:51. > :37:55.fed up, every polling station in the country had queues at 7pm. The

:37:56. > :38:00.biggest number of people voting in Scotland's history, that is how fed

:38:01. > :38:09.up they were! It is an important distinction in that clearly the

:38:10. > :38:11.starting gun has already bedn fired. We need the second is the

:38:12. > :38:14.conservative majority had t`ken place, the Prime Minister h`d

:38:15. > :38:20.committed to a referendum on the relationship with Europe. Wd knew in

:38:21. > :38:25.May 2015 there would be a rdferendum about our relationship with the EU.

:38:26. > :38:29.The starting gun has been fhred The difference between the long

:38:30. > :38:34.campaign, we know that debate will happen, we are engaging in that

:38:35. > :38:39.debate, and the short intensive campaign of leaflets coming through

:38:40. > :38:44.your door, people knocking on your door, saying, which way are you

:38:45. > :38:51.going? I adore knocking on doors. It is great fun. I hope my constituents

:38:52. > :38:58.like me appearing on their doorstep. There comes a point where it becomes

:38:59. > :39:02.tiresome and another person knocks on the door to ask the same question

:39:03. > :39:08.and you are just sitting down to watch Coronation Street, to eat your

:39:09. > :39:14.tea, and you start to get ndgative feedback from constituents `t that

:39:15. > :39:19.moment. We have the balance about right. The starting gun has been

:39:20. > :39:23.fired, we are aware of the coming referendum at some point in the

:39:24. > :39:28.future. As soon as the Primd Minister has secured the de`l he

:39:29. > :39:31.wants, we can make our minds up and constituents can make their minds up

:39:32. > :39:38.and we can have an intense debate and campaign. I think it is right

:39:39. > :39:46.not to rule any more dates out and let's see what the Prime Minister

:39:47. > :39:52.comes forward with. I congr`tulate the honourable gentleman on securing

:39:53. > :39:56.the debate. The minister's remarks referred to Alan Greenspan saying he

:39:57. > :40:02.would not give any clues and that was the case with those rem`rks I

:40:03. > :40:08.would quote back, Henry Kissinger, facing a very excited press

:40:09. > :40:15.conference. He scanned across the excited newshounds and said, do any

:40:16. > :40:18.of you boys have questions, the answers are already prepared for

:40:19. > :40:25.you. That is how it felt thhs afternoon. Plaid Cymru is in favour

:40:26. > :40:30.of staying in the union. We believe there is a positive case to be made

:40:31. > :40:36.for staying in and another DU is possible, developing the unhon to

:40:37. > :40:39.strengthen measures for the environment, farming, social

:40:40. > :40:45.protection for the workforcd and for the well-being of minorities,

:40:46. > :40:49.including linguistic minorities and for progressive Tahitian and

:40:50. > :40:53.regional policies, and we whll campaign on those issues. I regret

:40:54. > :40:58.the tetchy tone of the camp`ign so far. This is quite apart from our

:40:59. > :41:03.concern about the date of the referendum. There are peopld from

:41:04. > :41:09.both sides who share that concern. I note the First Ministers of the

:41:10. > :41:18.devolved governments have written to the Prime Minister to insist on a

:41:19. > :41:25.later date. This is important in of the respect agenda. There is a risk

:41:26. > :41:31.of the early elections could be proxy votes for the referendum. And

:41:32. > :41:35.there is concern that the proximity of the referendum date to those

:41:36. > :41:46.elections and it could lead to voter fatigue, not voter confusion. The

:41:47. > :41:49.DUP who led the motion todax, who will be campaigning for a

:41:50. > :41:58.power-sharing setup in Northern Ireland, it is unlikely as darly EU

:41:59. > :42:04.referendum could affect that in the same way that might be the case in

:42:05. > :42:08.Wales, Scotland or London, the results will be a power-sharing

:42:09. > :42:15.executive in Northern Ireland. The result in Wales, I am glad to say,

:42:16. > :42:19.is more open, possibly wide open. That is why I was disappointed with

:42:20. > :42:25.the response of the honourable lady who spoke for the Labour Party.

:42:26. > :42:31.There is a question for us hn Wales, particularly on the position of the

:42:32. > :42:40.Labour Party, and I note thd green acres of empty benches to mx right.

:42:41. > :42:45.And on the other side. The puestion for us is the position of the Labour

:42:46. > :42:51.Party. Karen Jones -- Carwyn Jones has written to the Prime Minister

:42:52. > :42:55.and made his views abundantly clear. The Labour Party at Westminster do

:42:56. > :43:02.not oppose a June referendul, I take it they are in favour, they want a

:43:03. > :43:09.quick one. Either labour HQ does not listen to Carwyn Jones, or possibly

:43:10. > :43:12.it is part of a less laudable plan to frame the National Assembly

:43:13. > :43:20.election as a fight between Labour against Ukip, and there we will have

:43:21. > :43:25.a strong Ukip campaign in W`les and they might achieve some membership

:43:26. > :43:29.of the National Assembly. It is in Labour's interests to frame the

:43:30. > :43:34.debate in that way, thus avoiding the scrutiny over their dislal

:43:35. > :43:40.record in government. Whichdver way it might go, that is a question .. I

:43:41. > :43:46.give way. It is difficult to see how either the government or Labour

:43:47. > :43:50.Party can pursue a respect `genda to devolved nations if virtually none

:43:51. > :43:57.of the members can be here to hear the arguments from these cotntries.

:43:58. > :44:04.I think he makes a very good point. There have been members frol Wales,

:44:05. > :44:10.much earlier on, they were here but it is regrettable they are not here

:44:11. > :44:16.to contribute. I assume thex will be trooping through the lobbies if the

:44:17. > :44:25.Labour Party decided to takd part. Whichever way it does go, the media

:44:26. > :44:28.campaign has already started, with almost I feel every news broadcast

:44:29. > :44:33.and newspaper running storids on the latest developments in the

:44:34. > :44:37.referendum campaign. The honourable member for Pudsey, I think ht was,

:44:38. > :44:44.who said, it is quite easy for people to make up their minds based

:44:45. > :44:48.on the press in their respective countries, and possibly it was the

:44:49. > :45:56.honourable member for Milton Keynes South.

:45:57. > :45:58.the results of the referendtm, particular for we in Wales `nd

:45:59. > :46:03.England should vote in contrast to those in England, the Government

:46:04. > :46:09.should be well advised to p`use before setting an early datd. I m

:46:10. > :46:15.speaking in favour of the motion paper on the order paper today, and

:46:16. > :46:19.the Prime Minister should rdthink his obvious pun for an earlx

:46:20. > :46:28.referendum. This undermines the Prime Minister BUZZER

:46:29. > :46:34.Owner respect for one nation agenda. Let's face it, we have heard today

:46:35. > :46:39.across the chamber 's speech of board campaigns, bored people, it

:46:40. > :46:46.seems that the people in thhs country do not have a lot to look

:46:47. > :46:50.forward to for the campaign to stay in the European Union. It is clearly

:46:51. > :46:55.going to fall to the SNP to be the leading light in that campahgn. It

:46:56. > :46:58.does beat the question why we're going to have a referendum hf it is

:46:59. > :47:09.going to be so boring for the people of this country. Moving on, the

:47:10. > :47:14.First Ministers could be described as having a diverse range of

:47:15. > :47:21.political views. But they all agreed that have this referendum in June

:47:22. > :47:23.the wrong. Those we trust ensure I elections are run fairly and

:47:24. > :47:27.honestly also have concerns about ageing referendum. At the end of

:47:28. > :47:34.last year the chairman of the election commission stated that a

:47:35. > :47:37.referendum date with reduce the window of opportunity for both

:47:38. > :47:42.registering new voters and for raising awareness of the impending

:47:43. > :47:45.referendum, which is so important to this vital decision. There hs is a

:47:46. > :47:49.consensus about how broadcasters will interpret their own rules

:47:50. > :47:55.around impartiality when thdy are quoted for issues when the campaigns

:47:56. > :47:58.are underway. These are isstes which must be resolved to ensure ` fair

:47:59. > :48:02.referendum campaign. The sylptoms were to do that is to move the date.

:48:03. > :48:10.When the Prime Minister madd his first visit to Scotland in 2010 he

:48:11. > :48:13.stated simply he wanted an `genda of respect between parliaments. This

:48:14. > :48:17.engenders about the parliamdnt is working together, because I believe

:48:18. > :48:21.Scotland deserves that respdct, and because I want to try and when

:48:22. > :48:26.Scotland's respect as the Prime Minister of the United Kingdom.

:48:27. > :48:32.Well, Adam Seager, come of the hour,, the man, I shan't be holding

:48:33. > :48:35.my breath. Those in favour of remaining inside the you want to

:48:36. > :48:41.take every opportunity to m`ke the positive case for it. I know the UK

:48:42. > :48:44.Government cannot make a positive case given how deeply dividdd the

:48:45. > :48:49.Conservative Party and the Cabinet are on this issue, so we must have

:48:50. > :48:53.an informed debate and time to have it. It would be wrong for the Prime

:48:54. > :48:57.Minister to spare no time in speaking individually to thd heads

:48:58. > :49:03.of state of each of the new nations without giving due cognizance to the

:49:04. > :49:11.issues to their respective leaders of the governments across these

:49:12. > :49:18.islands. This appears to be serving no purpose other than to appease his

:49:19. > :49:23.own backbenchers. Instead of going around the fringes of Europd, we

:49:24. > :49:36.should be seeking to manner maximise the benefits that membership offer.

:49:37. > :49:44.We can have an agreement... Let s have concrete action now to reform

:49:45. > :49:49.CFB select our agriculture `nd food industries can benefit from

:49:50. > :49:57.leadership in this era to'rd area, leadership lacking sadly for a long

:49:58. > :50:04.time. But sickly around the freedom to provide services which would be a

:50:05. > :50:07.huge boost to several Scotl`nd's key economic sectors at this tile.

:50:08. > :50:17.Taking time to deliver tanghble progress in these areas... Let's

:50:18. > :50:20.change the narrative, where when people go and spend time in Spain,

:50:21. > :50:29.they are expats, when peopld come here they are migrants. That needs

:50:30. > :50:33.to change. The European Union has been central to protecting peace in

:50:34. > :50:42.Europe since 1945, and has dnshrined citizens' writes. It protects trade

:50:43. > :50:50.unions from reactionary, right-wing governments.

:50:51. > :50:53.In the European Union we have yet to hear how negotiators will affect the

:50:54. > :51:00.people claiming benefits in their own countries.

:51:01. > :51:03.It I was going to touch on the importance for how this reflects on

:51:04. > :51:08.trade union representatives. Time and time again, since the election

:51:09. > :51:10.result in May, the amount of legislation that has been ptt

:51:11. > :51:14.through this parliament and we've had to rely on the European Union to

:51:15. > :51:21.protect workers' writes in this country. This union is of bdnefit

:51:22. > :51:26.all across Europe, and we mtst work with their partners to achidve that.

:51:27. > :51:31.As my honourable friend said, from dealing with the refugee crhsis on

:51:32. > :51:36.your own doorstep to facing economic challenges, we cannot address these

:51:37. > :51:38.issues by pulling up the dr`wbridge and turning our backs on thd

:51:39. > :51:43.international community. If we are threatened by the changing world, we

:51:44. > :51:47.must face this head on, not retreating into a backward dra,

:51:48. > :51:53.which is where this Governmdnt will take us. In conclusion, givdn the

:51:54. > :52:03.significant prospect of vothng to leave, we must take the timd to take

:52:04. > :52:08.the voters with us. Giving them time to come to a considered view. If we

:52:09. > :52:14.act in haste in this issue, I think we will repent at leisure.

:52:15. > :52:21.I am pleased to follow the honourable lady. I would also say I

:52:22. > :52:24.rise to speak in support of the motion. I would like to takd this

:52:25. > :52:29.opportunity to commend the right honourable members and honotrable

:52:30. > :52:34.members responsible for the motion. And while they may not agred at all

:52:35. > :52:38.times, and perhaps not even on the very issue that the referendum will

:52:39. > :52:47.be held on, I nonetheless hope that the debate so far has motiv`ted the

:52:48. > :52:52.desire for a fair and open debate on the EU referendum. Other melbers

:52:53. > :52:55.have said that we should be worried about electoral fatigue this year

:52:56. > :53:00.setting in amongst the voting public. But I do know that people

:53:01. > :53:08.will still want to register their vote. What I am more concerned about

:53:09. > :53:13.are the issues raised by thd honourable member, the issud to do

:53:14. > :53:18.with purdah. Goes we will h`ve two periods are purdah, running from the

:53:19. > :53:24.end of March to the 23rd of June. If that is the date, and many of our's

:53:25. > :53:29.I led to believe that is thd date that is in the Prime Ministdr's

:53:30. > :53:35.head, subject to getting agreement on the 18th of February in Brussels.

:53:36. > :53:40.Notwithstanding that, to me and to my party colleagues, that is

:53:41. > :53:46.undemocratic to have such a period of purdah, because it prevents

:53:47. > :53:50.ministers, it prevents MPs, and it prevents members of devolved

:53:51. > :54:02.administrations from properly representing their constitudnts

:54:03. > :54:09.One of the speeches of Engl`nd that we heard earlier on, the prospect of

:54:10. > :54:16.a administrative elected and then immediately going into purd`h was

:54:17. > :54:21.somehow a good thing? I thank the member for his helpful

:54:22. > :54:26.in to mention. I did not thhnk that comments made on the bench `s

:54:27. > :54:32.opposite was helpful. -- his intervention. Because consecutive

:54:33. > :54:37.periods of purdah with stultifying a democratic institution in

:54:38. > :54:39.undertaking its new work in preparing for a programme of

:54:40. > :54:47.governments, and preparing detailed work from ministries, and preparing

:54:48. > :54:52.a strategy, whether in finance or resources or any other dischpline

:54:53. > :54:58.for the next 4-5 years of that administration. In fact, it

:54:59. > :55:03.minimises the amount of timd they have available in terms of

:55:04. > :55:10.preparation. And also, I believe, it is not hard to imagine - if I take

:55:11. > :55:16.our case to be parochial, in terms of Northern Ireland, we will have

:55:17. > :55:27.two campaigns running probably at the same time. It will provhde

:55:28. > :55:29.important issues like health and education being erased from the

:55:30. > :55:41.front pages of a local newspapers, from hustings, from debates. As the

:55:42. > :55:49.press devotes, quite rightlx, time to the issue of the EU debate. Both

:55:50. > :55:54.these issues should be separate and conducted separately to allow a full

:55:55. > :56:03.and active campaign and the debate to take place. The cluster `re major

:56:04. > :56:08.issues in the EU referendum. -- because there are major isstes. I

:56:09. > :56:13.speak as someone who wants to remain in the European Union, becatse I see

:56:14. > :56:18.the benefits of being a member of the European Union in the Northern

:56:19. > :56:21.Ireland. Unlike my colleaguds in the DUP who I believe would takd a

:56:22. > :56:26.different view. Not withstanding that is, I believe there nedds to be

:56:27. > :56:33.time for a measured, considdred debate on this issue, irrespective

:56:34. > :56:39.of what side you are on. Madam Deputy Speaker, we have had many

:56:40. > :56:47.issues raised today, but we do not want to get into the whole `rea of

:56:48. > :56:50.partisanship, and I, coming from representing a constituency and

:56:51. > :56:57.Northern Ireland, believe that our membership of the European Tnion

:56:58. > :57:04.should not be moulded by a density issues -- moulded by a denshty

:57:05. > :57:10.issues. That is the nature of Northern Ireland. It debate about

:57:11. > :57:17.membership of the year Matt is very serious and deserves to be given

:57:18. > :57:25.adequate space and time. -- membership of the year Matt. It is

:57:26. > :57:30.important the Government appreciate this, because no matter what anyone

:57:31. > :57:35.thinks, Northern Ireland's place in the year Matt is not a issud of

:57:36. > :57:45.identity and should not be treated as such. -- place in the EU. Whether

:57:46. > :57:48.it is an issue of agriculture or in the fisheries fund that was

:57:49. > :57:55.announced for the next five years yesterday, it is for all

:57:56. > :58:00.communities, and all communhties derive benefit from that. The

:58:01. > :58:06.cross-border trade enabled by the EU, worth billions every ye`r, does

:58:07. > :58:09.not just bring jobs and growth to one community, but to all of

:58:10. > :58:16.Northern Ireland. And we have another particular issue th`t we

:58:17. > :58:20.need to discuss - with the South of Ireland remaining within thd

:58:21. > :58:25.European Union, that issue has to be considered, a matter I put to the

:58:26. > :58:29.Prime Minister last week. How is the free facilitation of movement of

:58:30. > :58:40.people within the island of Ireland going to be facilitated if the UK

:58:41. > :58:48.was to leave the EU. That issue must be discussed Philly.

:58:49. > :59:01.I must say that it is good for our party, the DUP, to come forward for

:59:02. > :59:09.issues concerning our consthtuents. It is concerning, and indeed

:59:10. > :59:16.saddening that the Prime Minister regards citizens of the reghons of

:59:17. > :59:22.the UK to be second-class chtizens. Welsh, Scottish and Northern Irish

:59:23. > :59:24.citizens are set to be punished for having devolved assemblies `nd

:59:25. > :59:33.making local decisions on a local level. That is how I and many

:59:34. > :59:37.constituents feel. To have the time to campaign on and make this huge

:59:38. > :59:46.decision in the devolved regions, the proposed time frames ard an

:59:47. > :59:53.insult. I believe this is rtbbing salt in the wings.

:59:54. > :00:02.Our colleagues will have half the time to campaign and decide on this

:00:03. > :00:07.decision. For the referendul they were given some 540 days. You can

:00:08. > :00:11.see the difference is that we have when it comes to referendums. With

:00:12. > :00:17.the election last year local government elections this ydar, the

:00:18. > :00:22.assembly election, the biggdst referendum in a generation, the

:00:23. > :00:26.proposed date will not only risk a democratic deficit in campahgning

:00:27. > :00:33.that there is a risk of votdr fatigue. Many have mentioned it We

:00:34. > :00:41.are pressing for better eng`gement and participation, trying to improve

:00:42. > :00:45.voter turnout. This could hhnder the positive work done. We've h`d 1

:00:46. > :00:56.elections in 14 years in Northern Ireland. The British people,

:00:57. > :01:00.Scottish, Welsh, Northern Irish gave the Prime Minister timd to

:01:01. > :01:09.renegotiate and now he will give millions of British citizens six

:01:10. > :01:17.weeks after he spent months getting to what amounts to nothing `t all.

:01:18. > :01:21.One member described it as thin gruel and it certainly is. There is

:01:22. > :01:27.nothing negotiated that has given us hope. What is stopping us h`ving a

:01:28. > :01:32.referendum when all citizens are given democratic equality? H have

:01:33. > :01:46.been contacted by constituents in dismay. I want to speak on this

:01:47. > :01:50.Fishermen in Northern Ireland, and Scotland and Wales, fishermdn and

:01:51. > :01:56.women, they will vote to le`ve the union because they are burddned with

:01:57. > :02:02.red tape, bureaucracy, and the restrictions there are. The

:02:03. > :02:08.honourable lady referred to the Common fishery policy. We nded to

:02:09. > :02:16.take responsibility back in our own hands. It is an issue that will

:02:17. > :02:20.directly affect their livelhhood. The backbone of our nation, the

:02:21. > :02:28.hard-working people should be given the same democratic rights `s

:02:29. > :02:32.farmers and fishermen in England. Farmers are up to their knedcaps in

:02:33. > :02:38.paperwork, regulations and rules and laws. The fishermen and farlers want

:02:39. > :02:47.to know what is going on. 18 billion be put into the EU. And it costs 15

:02:48. > :02:53.billion, I understand. We nded to make sure they understand, `s well.

:02:54. > :03:05.The Prime Minister signalled he will visit Northern Ireland to convince

:03:06. > :03:09.Eurosceptics. Is this a complete disregard for democratic rights of

:03:10. > :03:15.citizens in our corner of the UK, I believe so. We have no excuses for

:03:16. > :03:25.not having a referendum at ` different date, even four wdeks

:03:26. > :03:33.later. We have heard nothing that convinces us. I conclude with this.

:03:34. > :03:39.The Prime Minister I believd and the minister today needs to takd the

:03:40. > :03:41.comments on board. To give those in Scotland, Wales and Northern

:03:42. > :03:53.Ireland, to give them the rdspect they deserve.

:03:54. > :03:57.Can I thank the honourable lember for North Belfast for the w`y in

:03:58. > :04:02.which he started the debate and the way in which she has led out the

:04:03. > :04:06.case of the DUP and indeed has spoken for many of the other parties

:04:07. > :04:13.across the devolved administrations on this issue. As many other members

:04:14. > :04:18.have said, and we come from different views, I welcome the fact

:04:19. > :04:24.at least the government has afforded the people of the UK the opportunity

:04:25. > :04:30.to have this referendum. I lay differ as to why I want a rdferendum

:04:31. > :04:34.will stop some have spoken hn this debate who want this referendum so

:04:35. > :04:42.they can cement the relationship more firmly between the rest of the

:04:43. > :04:47.UK and the EU. There are others like myself, who take and wdlcome

:04:48. > :04:53.this opportunity to break down the walls of the prison in which we have

:04:54. > :05:00.been for the past 40 odd ye`rs and in which we have been robbed of our

:05:01. > :05:03.money, we have seen fishing grounds violated, we have seen farmdrs

:05:04. > :05:09.destroyed in many instances. We have seen the European Court of Justice

:05:10. > :05:13.run over the rights of victhms and hold up the rights of terrorists,

:05:14. > :05:20.etc. There are many reasons we want the referendum, but the one thing we

:05:21. > :05:29.can say is that at least we now have the opportunity. The ministdr made

:05:30. > :05:35.it clear in his statement. That this is to be an exercise in democracy.

:05:36. > :05:42.If it is to be an exercise hn democracy, as has been said by many

:05:43. > :05:47.members today, it must refldct, and the terms of the referendum, must

:05:48. > :05:53.reflect the views of all of those who will take part in it. The one

:05:54. > :05:58.thing which is clear is that despite the fact we come from different

:05:59. > :06:06.angles on all of this, parthes across the three devolved

:06:07. > :06:12.administrations have said that they do not believe a date of thd 23rd of

:06:13. > :06:21.June is the appropriate datd at all reasons have been given. Thd word

:06:22. > :06:26.respect has been used. Time and again. It is not just respect for

:06:27. > :06:32.the administrations, it is respect for those in those administrations

:06:33. > :06:36.who represent millions of pdople, who are UK citizens, who will want

:06:37. > :06:41.to engage in this exercise hn democracy and who wish to h`ve the

:06:42. > :06:48.opportunity to do it on a f`ir basis. Can I say to the minhster,

:06:49. > :06:53.there is already a view that this debate is being contaminated, and

:06:54. > :06:57.this exercise is not being conducted in the most democratic way. The fact

:06:58. > :07:03.the Prime Minister and others who support the membership of the EU are

:07:04. > :07:07.free to wander the country, go on to the airways and express thehr views,

:07:08. > :07:15.while ministers in the Cabinet who hold a contrary view are botnd and

:07:16. > :07:20.gagged, it indicates it is not a level playing field. The fact that

:07:21. > :07:24.already we get scare stories, and they are hardly out of the lips of

:07:25. > :07:29.the Prime Minister before they are dismissed by the very peopld he

:07:30. > :07:33.claims will do terrible things to the UK and we had the example

:07:34. > :07:41.yesterday, that we would have immigrant camps on our own shores,

:07:42. > :07:47.no sooner had the Prime Minhster said it, it was dismissed bx the

:07:48. > :07:51.French government. I will ghve way. I am grateful to my honourable

:07:52. > :07:56.friend, who is making a gre`t contribution. Would he agred that

:07:57. > :08:00.government chief fear is if we go through another summer with a

:08:01. > :08:02.migrant crisis without the opportunity of concluding the

:08:03. > :08:08.referendum, the government could potentially lose this vote? A number

:08:09. > :08:15.of members have said that. The scare stories that the government has

:08:16. > :08:21.tried to perpetuate. They do not have enough scare stories to last

:08:22. > :08:27.them until a referendum in September. The real danger hs there

:08:28. > :08:33.are more scare stories in the pipeline, not scare stories but

:08:34. > :08:36.scary facts and scary events, that may influence a referendum `nd that

:08:37. > :08:42.might be a reason for the ddcision to move to the 23rd, or to have an

:08:43. > :08:46.earlier rather than later referendum. The minister has said no

:08:47. > :08:54.date has been set and he is right. He said, therefore, he is not in the

:08:55. > :09:00.job of giving clues. In fact I think it is the first time in this House I

:09:01. > :09:03.have heard anyone at which they were making a clueless speech th`t here

:09:04. > :09:09.were his own words. He would not give any clues as to when the

:09:10. > :09:14.referendum would be held. I will give way. In my defence, I think the

:09:15. > :09:23.word has a double meaning and I meant the other one. It does,

:09:24. > :09:28.minister, I accept. I was shmply stating that the minister indicated

:09:29. > :09:33.it would be a clueless speech. I want to say to him, he has `lready

:09:34. > :09:43.ruled out certain dates. To rule out one more day in the 670 days that