24/02/2016

:00:11. > :00:20.Order, statement the Secretary of State for Scotland, Secretary David

:00:21. > :00:24.Mundell. Mr Speaker, with permission I would like to make a statement

:00:25. > :00:27.about the new fiscal framework for Scotland which was agreed yesterday

:00:28. > :00:31.by the United Kingdom and Scottish governments. And I begin by paying

:00:32. > :00:37.tribute to everyone who has worked so hard to arrive at this point, my

:00:38. > :00:40.right honourable friend the Chief Secretary and Deputy First Minister

:00:41. > :00:45.of Scotland, John Swinney, who have led these negotiations with skill.

:00:46. > :00:50.Lord Dunlop, whose contribution has been invaluable and the dedicated

:00:51. > :00:54.teams of officials from Her Majesty's Treasury and the Scottish

:00:55. > :00:58.Government who have worked tirelessly on behalf of their

:00:59. > :01:02.respective governments. They can be proud of what has been achieved and

:01:03. > :01:08.the servers they have given. This is an hugely systolic deal and will

:01:09. > :01:11.pave the way for the Scottish parliament to become one of the most

:01:12. > :01:17.accountable the bolt parliaments in the world. We have respected all the

:01:18. > :01:22.principles set out in the cross-party Smith agreement and

:01:23. > :01:26.delivered a deal that is fair for Scotland and therefore the whole

:01:27. > :01:31.United Kingdom. As Lord Smith himself said yesterday evening, when

:01:32. > :01:36.the Smith agreement was passed to the Prime Minister and First

:01:37. > :01:44.Minister, both gave their word they would love it into law. They have

:01:45. > :01:48.met that promise in full. -- deliver it into law. You will be more

:01:49. > :01:53.details in coming days but I would like to set out a future GL and

:01:54. > :01:57.solve the deal. The Scottish Government will retain all of the

:01:58. > :02:02.revenue from the taxes being devolved or assigned including

:02:03. > :02:08.around 12 billion of income tax and 5 billion of VAT. The block grant of

:02:09. > :02:12.the Scottish Government will be adjusted to reflect the devolution

:02:13. > :02:17.and assignment of further taxes and the devolution of further spending

:02:18. > :02:23.responsibilities. We have kept our commitment to retain the Barnett

:02:24. > :02:26.formula extending this to cover the areas of devolved welfare. We will

:02:27. > :02:33.use the governments preferred funding model. Under this model the

:02:34. > :02:36.government holds all specific breasts in relation to devolved

:02:37. > :02:44.taxes just as it does under the Barnett formula. That is fair to

:02:45. > :02:46.Scotland and fair to the rest of the United Kingdom. However, for a

:02:47. > :02:51.transitional period covering the next Scottish Parliament there is an

:02:52. > :02:55.agreement to share the Scottish Pacific risks as these are

:02:56. > :02:59.implemented. The Scottish Government will hold the economic risk while

:03:00. > :03:04.the UK Government will hold the population risks. A Scottish

:03:05. > :03:07.Government will not receive a any less than Barnett funding over the

:03:08. > :03:13.course of the spending review simply due to different collation growth

:03:14. > :03:20.and by the end of 2021 a review of the framework will be formed by an

:03:21. > :03:25.independent report so that we can end Stewart we are continuing to

:03:26. > :03:30.deliver Smith in full with the Scottish Government responsible for

:03:31. > :03:34.the full range of opportunities and risks associated with its new

:03:35. > :03:36.responsibilities. We have also agreed the Scottish Government will

:03:37. > :03:40.have additional new borrowing powers which will ensure the Scottish

:03:41. > :03:46.Government can manage its budget effectively and invest up to 3

:03:47. > :03:49.billion in infrastructure. In line with the recommendation of the Smith

:03:50. > :03:54.agreement we will provide the Scottish Government with ?200

:03:55. > :04:00.million chair to setup the new powers will control. The government

:04:01. > :04:05.has set up more powers to the Scottish people ensuring they have

:04:06. > :04:08.one of the most our full devolved parliaments in the world, and

:04:09. > :04:14.economic and national security that comes with being part of our United

:04:15. > :04:19.Kingdom. That is what we have agreed and that is what we have delivered

:04:20. > :04:22.in full. Now that we have agreed this story demolition deal the

:04:23. > :04:27.conversation must move on to how these new hours are to be used. The

:04:28. > :04:33.Scottish Government will have extensive powers on tax, welfare and

:04:34. > :04:38.spending. It will have control over income tax and be able to change the

:04:39. > :04:41.rates and thresholds. It will be able to create new benefits and of

:04:42. > :04:48.course the permanence of the Scottish Parliament is put the on

:04:49. > :04:51.any doubt. Mr Speaker, the people of Scotland voted for these new powers

:04:52. > :04:57.in the deserve to hear from the parties in Scotland how they will

:04:58. > :05:04.use them. New powers which, if used well, it can grow Scotland's economy

:05:05. > :05:08.and indeed population and bring opportunity and prosperity. Now that

:05:09. > :05:11.we've agreed this fiscal framework I hope and trust that this House and

:05:12. > :05:17.the other place will welcome it while, of course, subjecting it to

:05:18. > :05:24.full scrutiny. I commend this statement to the House. Ian Murray.

:05:25. > :05:28.Thank you Mr Speaker and I would like to thank the Secretary Of State

:05:29. > :05:31.for his statement and coming to the House yesterday to indicate he would

:05:32. > :05:37.be making this statement today. I'd also like to begin by welcoming

:05:38. > :05:42.unequivocally the news that this agreement has been made. I would

:05:43. > :05:47.like to thank both governments, the assistant to the First Minister and

:05:48. > :05:52.the Secretary Of State himself for working so hard to secure this

:05:53. > :05:56.historic deal. The people from both governments who we now do the deal

:05:57. > :06:02.work, my heartfelt thanks go out to them.

:06:03. > :06:09.As Lord Smith said, the agreement sees the recommendations of the

:06:10. > :06:16.Smith Commission delivered in full. Importantly, they have now

:06:17. > :06:23.stipulated that the balmy bar met Dutch macro Barnett formula should

:06:24. > :06:26.remain. I know the secretary of state has said details will be

:06:27. > :06:32.published by the end of the week. Can he indicate whether this house

:06:33. > :06:39.will have time to scrutinise it in detail? -- Barnett formula. What

:06:40. > :06:42.this process has highlighted is that future intergovernmental

:06:43. > :06:47.relationships must be improved to make these powers work for Scotland.

:06:48. > :06:51.Lord Smith recommendations that both governments need to work together to

:06:52. > :06:55.get a more productive, robust, that the bowl and transparent

:06:56. > :06:59.relationship and that the joint ministerial committee must be

:07:00. > :07:05.reformed as a matter of urgency, echo in this process. And can he

:07:06. > :07:11.confirmed this will be done. We all know there was a stumbling block.

:07:12. > :07:15.Under a compromise, there will be a five-year transitional period, which

:07:16. > :07:19.will cover a full term of the next Scottish parliament. Towards the

:07:20. > :07:23.end, an independent review recommendation will be published.

:07:24. > :07:27.That will form the basis of a more permanent solution. When he gave

:07:28. > :07:31.evidence, the Secretary of State suggested the period between the

:07:32. > :07:36.review being publish and the transitional period ending could be

:07:37. > :07:42.as little as just 12 weeks. If no agreement is reached, what happens

:07:43. > :07:46.then? In terms of the period itself, it is my understanding that the

:07:47. > :07:51.Scottish fiscal commission will carry out forecasts for the Scottish

:07:52. > :07:58.economy. Can he confirmed that? Under the terms, but they will be

:07:59. > :08:01.fully independent of the Scottish Government, because last week the

:08:02. > :08:05.Scottish finance committee voted against allowing for this very

:08:06. > :08:10.independence. There seems to be some confusion over the block grant

:08:11. > :08:16.adjustments during this period to 2022. The First Minister said it

:08:17. > :08:20.would be done according to the Treasury's favoured method, but to

:08:21. > :08:27.the Scottish Government's favoured outcome. Can he confirmed what it

:08:28. > :08:31.will be? Will it be the tax capacity adjusted levels deduction? I

:08:32. > :08:36.understand that was his latest offer. Further clarity is also

:08:37. > :08:43.needed on the demolition of powers. New powers will be available by

:08:44. > :08:48.2017, he said. The First Minister does not think this is realistic. Is

:08:49. > :08:54.he able to confirm that the new tax powers will be transferred by April

:08:55. > :08:59.2017? Today, the Scottish Government in surpassing the Scottish budget.

:09:00. > :09:07.Ten months from now, we want them to have full control of passenger duty,

:09:08. > :09:11.and tax. We also want to have powers over welfare, which will allow us to

:09:12. > :09:16.design a new social security system for Scotland. Onto the review, I

:09:17. > :09:22.welcome it and that it will be fully independent. I have stated that

:09:23. > :09:27.partial oversights and arbitration should be an established part of

:09:28. > :09:31.relations. Can you tell us how the review body will be chosen and

:09:32. > :09:35.confirm it will be done in the spirit of consensus with the full

:09:36. > :09:40.agreement of both governments? Kenny also tell us what extent the review

:09:41. > :09:49.will implement the decision taken on the long-term decision for Rock

:09:50. > :09:55.grant adjustment. -- can he also tell. Today marks and historic day.

:09:56. > :10:02.The creation of one of the most powerful devolved parliaments in the

:10:03. > :10:06.world. The demands have been met. Barnett protected, power was

:10:07. > :10:10.transferred, the Val delivered. Scottish politics will never be the

:10:11. > :10:21.same again, thanks to these new powers. We have entered a new and

:10:22. > :10:26.exciting era of devolution. -- the promise was delivered. My party will

:10:27. > :10:35.grab it with both hands. Thank you. I agree with most of what he said.

:10:36. > :10:40.In relation to the opportunity it presents and I think the people of

:10:41. > :10:43.Scotland, what they want, is to see us move on from discussing the

:10:44. > :10:50.process to discussing policies and the difference we can make for them

:10:51. > :10:55.with these extensive new powers. I would indicate that it is my full

:10:56. > :10:58.expectation that the agreement and associated details should be

:10:59. > :11:03.available tomorrow and I very much hope that that will afford them the

:11:04. > :11:13.maximum amount of scrutiny. It will be open to committees of this house

:11:14. > :11:19.to scrutinise the arrangements as they see fit. He makes, and for

:11:20. > :11:24.understandable reasons, reference to intergovernmental relations. I think

:11:25. > :11:30.it's important to look at what Lord Smith said, in relation to how this

:11:31. > :11:34.agreement was arrived at. He said, "It is difficult to imagine a bigger

:11:35. > :11:42.test. Whilst it was obvious they are very tough negotiations, what

:11:43. > :11:51.matters is an agreement has been reached". I accept that the leave. I

:11:52. > :11:59.believe that when the transition period is over, when the independent

:12:00. > :12:06.report has come forward, it will be possible to reach an agreement. And

:12:07. > :12:10.he has asked many times why it has taken so long. Many important

:12:11. > :12:17.agreements are reached at the 11th hour just by the very nature of

:12:18. > :12:22.doing a deal. I am sure that we will be able, on the basis that were set

:12:23. > :12:29.out to ensure that this is the case at the end of the transitional

:12:30. > :12:34.period. The independent review, which he refers to, will indeed be a

:12:35. > :12:40.matter of agreement between the two governments. As he is aware, there

:12:41. > :12:44.are many people in Scotland who perhaps ruled themselves out being

:12:45. > :12:48.independence, who aren't as independent as they seem. I think it

:12:49. > :12:52.is important that there is agreement between the two governments as to

:12:53. > :13:01.how that independent review should go forward. And then ultimately, in

:13:02. > :13:04.relation to the fiscal commission, yes, the agreement with the Scottish

:13:05. > :13:09.Government is that its forecast will be fully independent. And finally,

:13:10. > :13:14.this government will place no impediment in relation to the

:13:15. > :13:21.transfer of powers. So obviously we cannot impose the tax powers on the

:13:22. > :13:26.Scottish Government, we wouldn't seek to do so. But I would have

:13:27. > :13:33.hoped that they want to take them on as soon as possible and that is the

:13:34. > :13:38.end to which we will be working. May I congratulate the Right Honourable

:13:39. > :13:45.friend on his apparent success in achieving a settlement. Can he

:13:46. > :13:50.assure the house that this settlement, when it is implemented,

:13:51. > :13:54.not only gives a strong Scottish Government the power that needs to

:13:55. > :14:00.conduct its devolved affairs properly, but also it does nothing

:14:01. > :14:03.whatever to impair the ability of the United Kingdom governments to

:14:04. > :14:09.maintain financial discipline and healthy public finances for the

:14:10. > :14:13.British economy in future, because surely it's an essential condition

:14:14. > :14:22.for the future of growth and prosperity of the English, British,

:14:23. > :14:26.Welsh, Irish, United Kingdom economy? I am very happy to give my

:14:27. > :14:31.right honourable friend the assurance he seeks. The Scottish

:14:32. > :14:42.fiscal framework will be consistent with the UK fiscal framework. I will

:14:43. > :14:47.thank the Secretary of State for his statement and the conversations he

:14:48. > :14:55.had yesterday given the constraints of Parliamentary time and only being

:14:56. > :14:59.able to make a statement. I speak in behalf of all SNP members on

:15:00. > :15:04.welcoming the news fiscal framework. We all look forward to the draft

:15:05. > :15:09.heads of agreement being published for Parliamentary scrutiny. My

:15:10. > :15:14.colleagues and the Scottish Government were clear throughout

:15:15. > :15:17.these negotiations. They said they would not sign a deal which would

:15:18. > :15:27.include a threat to the Scottish budget. They promise of no detriment

:15:28. > :15:36.was made and it is a promised that the SNP has made sure was delivered.

:15:37. > :15:41.When they first began, negotiations, Scotland's budget faced a cut of ?7

:15:42. > :15:47.million. This week, it was 3 million. Yesterday, it was ?2.5

:15:48. > :15:52.million. Last night, they got a deal that ensures we will not be a pound

:15:53. > :16:01.or even a penny worse off. New powers were promised and will be

:16:02. > :16:05.delivered. I pay tribute to Nicola Sturgeon and John Swinney for

:16:06. > :16:08.standing up for Scotland and being stronger for Scotland. I welcome

:16:09. > :16:15.that the UK Government will guarantee that the outcome of the

:16:16. > :16:19.funding model is delivered in each of the next six years. I understand

:16:20. > :16:23.that a transitional funding arrangement will be reviewed

:16:24. > :16:29.following the UK and Scottish Parliamentary elections in 2020 and

:16:30. > :16:33.2021 respectively. The review will be informed by an independent

:16:34. > :16:38.report, the recommendations presented to both governments by the

:16:39. > :16:42.end of 2021. Let me say this. The Smith report was crystal clear that

:16:43. > :16:47.the fiscal framework had to be agreed by both the UK and the

:16:48. > :16:50.Scottish governments. The Treasury tried to engineer an agreement that

:16:51. > :16:54.would have allowed them to impose a model of indexation in five years'

:16:55. > :16:59.time. Those are the facts of the matter. That would have seen

:17:00. > :17:03.billions cut to the Scotland budget. May I ask the following questions.

:17:04. > :17:10.Will he confirm that the Treasury no longer has the power to impose a

:17:11. > :17:14.method of indexation? Will he confirm that the review will go

:17:15. > :17:20.ahead without prejudice to the outcome? Will he confirm there is no

:17:21. > :17:23.default indexation option? And that the Scottish Government's agreement

:17:24. > :17:35.is required before any new indexation model can be adopted? I

:17:36. > :17:42.thank the honourable gentleman for the parts he welcomed in relation to

:17:43. > :17:46.the agreement. This has been a negotiation and it is a point that

:17:47. > :17:50.has been arrived at. It's not possible for the Treasury or UK

:17:51. > :17:54.Government to have engineered an agreement. What was needed was the

:17:55. > :18:00.agreement of the Scottish Government. That has that has what

:18:01. > :18:07.has been achieved. They have been able to agree on framework that is

:18:08. > :18:15.fair to Scotland and fair to the people of Scotland. I can reassure

:18:16. > :18:20.him that the review will go ahead on an independent basis. Without

:18:21. > :18:29.prejudice or predetermined outcome and it will be concluded by the end

:18:30. > :18:38.of 2020. There will be no imposition of any formula at the end of that

:18:39. > :18:43.period and what happens there will be by way of agreement. As I said,

:18:44. > :18:50.greeting Lord Smith, I believe this process, in some of the most

:18:51. > :18:52.difficult types of negotiation, gives us constants that UK

:18:53. > :18:59.Government and Scottish Government will be able to reach an agreement.

:19:00. > :19:03.Extrapolating recent population trends, what is the additional cost

:19:04. > :19:09.to England and Wales and Northern Ireland of the transitional

:19:10. > :19:17.arrangements on population? There will be no additional cost to

:19:18. > :19:21.England and Wales and Northern Ireland in relation to the powers

:19:22. > :19:29.being transferred. If we were not proceeding with this devolution

:19:30. > :19:33.settlement. Because some is being delivered to the Scottish Government

:19:34. > :19:40.is the same as would be delivered under the Barnett formula -- the

:19:41. > :19:50.amount. The Scottish Government has pledged to halve passenger duty. It

:19:51. > :19:54.leaves Newcastle Airport at risk. Following the statement, when can we

:19:55. > :20:01.expect a decision from the government on support for regional

:20:02. > :20:09.airports, as promised by the Prime Minister, as ongoing uncertainty is

:20:10. > :20:13.very damaging. I note for the honourable lady says. People in

:20:14. > :20:19.Scotland will note that the SNP position used to be to abolish

:20:20. > :20:24.passenger duty completely. So they're somewhat of a change there.

:20:25. > :20:29.But she makes an important point. There is a review and I'm sure these

:20:30. > :20:38.issues will be issues that are considered as the budget process

:20:39. > :20:44.goes ahead. It's not the measure of giving to others what you demand

:20:45. > :20:49.yourself. Why should the Scottish people feel any different? Doesn't

:20:50. > :20:53.the Secretary of State realised there must be some merit in the

:20:54. > :20:59.argument that as long as we maintain the outmoded, outdated and unfair

:21:00. > :21:05.Barnett formula, which is disadvantage for the English, we

:21:06. > :21:15.will stoke unhappiness on both sides of the border.

:21:16. > :21:22.My honourable friend as we well know is staunch in this chamber. When he

:21:23. > :21:28.moved his amendment for complete fiscal freedom my response to that

:21:29. > :21:33.is that I think the people of Scotland would not respond well to

:21:34. > :21:43.having a ?10 billion annual Black hole in their finances and that fool

:21:44. > :21:47.fiscal freedom is not the answer. Further freedom assets set out

:21:48. > :21:50.within the Scottish bill to create a power Parliament is what the people

:21:51. > :22:00.want and what this government is delivering. Washer. Can I

:22:01. > :22:04.congratulate all involved for the principle of no detriment. Can I

:22:05. > :22:10.also thank the chief Secretary for attending and the Deputy First

:22:11. > :22:15.Minister and hope they come again to explain more about the details of

:22:16. > :22:18.this fiscal framework. Can I just ask the Secretary Of State, at the

:22:19. > :22:23.beginning of the process we have heard this figure 7000000000 pounds,

:22:24. > :22:27.Devon billion the Treasury intended to cut from the Scottish budget, why

:22:28. > :22:32.was it the Treasury 's intention to cut billions of pounds from the

:22:33. > :22:39.Scottish budget and what did he, as the Scottish Secretary for Scotland,

:22:40. > :22:41.a ten to do about it? Mr Speaker Rhino the honourable gentleman does

:22:42. > :22:50.not understand the concept of negotiation where to sides work

:22:51. > :22:53.together to get an agreement. Assertions and sound bites sound

:22:54. > :22:57.good but they do not deliver for the people of Scotland. What delivers is

:22:58. > :23:04.the two governments working together to produce a sustainable agreement.

:23:05. > :23:06.That is what we've done, we got an agreement that underpins the

:23:07. > :23:13.Scotland Bill which means Scotland can get these powers over tax and

:23:14. > :23:18.welfare. People want to move on from the process debate, they want to

:23:19. > :23:28.view the holiday ideas. Maggie Throup. The enquiry into the fiscal

:23:29. > :23:33.framework shows into the new welfare powers devolved to Scotland, has my

:23:34. > :23:36.right honourable friend find any details from the Scottish Government

:23:37. > :23:42.on how the plan to use the new powers? I very much welcome the fact

:23:43. > :23:48.the First Minister and Deputy First Minister have indicated they do land

:23:49. > :23:52.to set out how they intend to use the powers. I think it was very

:23:53. > :23:57.interesting some of the media reports in Scotland in particular

:23:58. > :24:03.that indicate the SMP land to significantly increase the tax

:24:04. > :24:07.burden on those middle-income earners in Scotland but obviously we

:24:08. > :24:16.will have two weight. The detail in the manifesto what will be the cases

:24:17. > :24:18.there will be no excuses now, Mr Speaker, the honourable members

:24:19. > :24:21.opposite can come here to this Parliament and complain about

:24:22. > :24:24.certain welfare changes that they will have the ability within

:24:25. > :24:30.Scotland to set their own welfare arrangements. The Scottish

:24:31. > :24:36.Government have been able to achieve their chosen deduction method

:24:37. > :24:39.through to a skilled strategy what advice will he get to the Welsh

:24:40. > :24:49.government when it comes to negotiating the fiscal framework for

:24:50. > :24:54.Wales? What I am Cleon is that the position in Wales will be as in

:24:55. > :24:59.Scotland, the people of Wales will benefit most when the Welsh

:25:00. > :25:08.government and the United Kingdom government work constructively

:25:09. > :25:11.together for their benefit. Isn't it time, Mr Speaker, that we heard from

:25:12. > :25:16.the Scottish Government detailed plans to devolved our down to the

:25:17. > :25:26.Scottish communities? Revolution should not stop at Holyrood. I

:25:27. > :25:32.absolutely agree with my honourable friend and I am sure he will have

:25:33. > :25:36.read my speech of the 21st of November delivered in Glasgow city

:25:37. > :25:43.Chambers, making exactly the case for devolution within Scotland.

:25:44. > :25:48.Unfortunately, in recent times, Scotland has become one of the most

:25:49. > :25:53.centralised countries in terms of government. I believe the news that

:25:54. > :25:58.if government elected in May should be devolving further powers and the

:25:59. > :26:05.best way to achieve that is to elect more Scottish Conservative MPs under

:26:06. > :26:09.the leadership of Ruth Davidson. Thank you, how great to follow that

:26:10. > :26:16.remark from the Secretary Of State. How does the cost can be a to the

:26:17. > :26:22.government current calculations for implementing a deal agreed at last

:26:23. > :26:31.weeks EU summit for foreign workers in the UK? I welcome the question,

:26:32. > :26:36.it she and I were both Scottish candidates bodies cottage Parliament

:26:37. > :26:52.in the dim and distant past. I am sure the details I am sure the

:26:53. > :26:55.details will stand up to scrutiny. It is an unedifying spectacle when

:26:56. > :27:01.large numbers are quite so visit this. He's even graces that all of

:27:02. > :27:08.them do have a very notable smile on their faces so at least there is

:27:09. > :27:15.humour in the chamber. Mr Alan mac you wish to give us the benefit of

:27:16. > :27:23.your views? This new agreement does show that Scotland's government can

:27:24. > :27:28.work together and the details of how the world use these new powers? I

:27:29. > :27:34.certainly do and I do since yearly hand have on a number of occasions

:27:35. > :27:39.in this chamber, paid particular tribute to the Deputy First Minister

:27:40. > :27:42.of Scotland, John Swinney. He and I have had numerous conversations like

:27:43. > :27:48.this process and twilight times we have been in disagreement, they have

:27:49. > :27:51.always been cordial and civil and that is the basis of the

:27:52. > :27:56.relationship I want to see with the Scottish Government. I think the

:27:57. > :27:58.honourable gentleman is right and what this agreement means is that

:27:59. > :28:03.the Scottish bill can pass through the House and hopefully received

:28:04. > :28:08.consent motion at Holyrood and what that will mean is the will be no

:28:09. > :28:11.hiding place on these issues bodies cottage government. If they want to

:28:12. > :28:15.spend more they will have the tax powers to do so and if they want to

:28:16. > :28:24.have higher welfare they will have the ability to do so. My

:28:25. > :28:27.constituents will welcome this agreement and the fact the Scottish

:28:28. > :28:31.Government was able to persuade the Treasury to abandon its initial

:28:32. > :28:36.position which would have meant seven pounds -- ?7 billion of cuts

:28:37. > :28:40.in the Scottish finance and come to the Smith position that there should

:28:41. > :28:46.be no detriment. At this been the original possession of the secretary

:28:47. > :28:50.we could have got this done before Christmas rather than spend so much

:28:51. > :28:56.time with that. Is now the case beyond doubt that principle of no

:28:57. > :29:06.detriment to the Scottish budget is enshrined both now and in the

:29:07. > :29:13.future? Yes, as is the other point in the Smith commission, it is not

:29:14. > :29:17.just in Scotland but across the UK. I was very clear that Barnett would

:29:18. > :29:21.be retained, that has been done and it is right it has been done. The

:29:22. > :29:27.starting point for public spending in Scotland now is 115% of the UK

:29:28. > :29:30.average. Can the Secretary Of State tell the House in terms of his

:29:31. > :29:36.modelling what that percentage per capita will be at the end of this

:29:37. > :29:41.Parliament? Certainly, since the honourable gentleman asked for

:29:42. > :29:47.complex calculation, I will be happy to write to him in that regard. What

:29:48. > :29:52.I would say and I do respect his strongly held views an allusion to

:29:53. > :29:56.the Barnett formula, the government division is clear, the Barnett

:29:57. > :30:02.formula is being retained. Following yesterday's devastating votes on the

:30:03. > :30:08.Lord amendments for the Welfare Reform Bill, and the Secretary Of

:30:09. > :30:12.State say more on cams of when powers will be transferred to

:30:13. > :30:16.Scotland so that at least in Scotland we can do something to

:30:17. > :30:24.prevent the appalling effects of poverty on children and disabled

:30:25. > :30:29.people? Obviously I do not agree with her perspective in relation to

:30:30. > :30:32.specific policies but she is right the Scottish parliament will have

:30:33. > :30:35.specific and detailed policies in relation to welfare. We have a joint

:30:36. > :30:41.ministerial group on welfare which includes myself and Scottish

:30:42. > :30:44.ministers Alex Neil and Roseanna Cunningham and what we need to do is

:30:45. > :30:49.work through that group in terms of the transfer of specific powers.

:30:50. > :30:52.What we do not want to do is order to be a transfer of power without

:30:53. > :31:00.new arrangements being in place cause obviously goes able in receipt

:31:01. > :31:04.of the benefits have to be our prime concern. We are going to work

:31:05. > :31:09.closely together. An enormous amount of work has been done by officials

:31:10. > :31:13.to date and I am confident once we know the cause we do not fully now,

:31:14. > :31:17.of course, what the Scottish Government proposal la, once we know

:31:18. > :31:26.what the RB will be able to make an effective transition. The Secretary

:31:27. > :31:30.Of State in his reply to my honourable friend the member for

:31:31. > :31:36.Perth and North they are sure seemed to confirm that the Treasury is

:31:37. > :31:42.opening bed in these negotiations, a so-called level deductions approach

:31:43. > :31:48.which would have led to a ?7 billion debt in Scottish spending, the

:31:49. > :31:53.opening bed was merely a negotiating ploy. If that is the case will be

:31:54. > :31:56.Secretary Of State confirm that it was disrespectful for negotiations

:31:57. > :32:02.to start with the position so far from the doubt and will he confirm

:32:03. > :32:09.that will ever happen again? Mr Speaker, what complete and utter

:32:10. > :32:14.nonsense! A deal is done that is good for Scotland, good for the UK

:32:15. > :32:17.and honourable members opposite had to trawl through newspaper reports

:32:18. > :32:25.to find something that they can complain about! This is a good deal

:32:26. > :32:28.for Scotland, it gets Scotland new powers, like stock about how we use

:32:29. > :32:37.those powers or the benefit of Scotland and let the grievance

:32:38. > :32:42.agenda to bed once and for all! I have no desire to sour the tone of

:32:43. > :32:46.consensus on what is and the story date for Scotland. It is a fact and

:32:47. > :32:52.many of my constituents leave that funding for Scotland and parts of

:32:53. > :32:55.the Barnett formula art and fear to the north of England. That is the

:32:56. > :33:00.acknowledged that grievance and how does this new fiscal framework James

:33:01. > :33:05.that? I acknowledge that people have those feelings and a number of

:33:06. > :33:11.people on both sides of this House have raised issues about the Barnett

:33:12. > :33:15.formula. In my view that is their job as representatives of different

:33:16. > :33:18.parts of the United Kingdom. My position is quite clear, the Barnett

:33:19. > :33:26.formula is good for Scotland and this over at is keeping the Barnett

:33:27. > :33:28.formula. And the Secretary Of State name some of the devolved assemblies

:33:29. > :33:34.around the world that will now be less powerful than the Scottish

:33:35. > :33:39.Parliament? I can produce them a list and I will send him that lest

:33:40. > :33:44.because I am not focused on other assemblies around the world. I am

:33:45. > :33:47.focused on the Scottish parliament and making it a powerhouse

:33:48. > :33:54.parliament with the powers that make a difference in Scotland. That is

:33:55. > :34:00.what the state of the debate is. I think his constituents want want to

:34:01. > :34:05.hear about parliaments in South America and other parts of the

:34:06. > :34:10.world, they'll want to hear about what his party intends to do on

:34:11. > :34:22.income tax and wealthier. -- welfare. We have had a particularly

:34:23. > :34:26.mild November, December and January, two G, going forward, let us know

:34:27. > :34:31.when he expects this will to finish its passage in the House of Lords,

:34:32. > :34:38.when he expects it go back to the House of Commons and when he expects

:34:39. > :34:42.it to get consent? In relation to the first two questions I expect

:34:43. > :34:48.that to be Marge and I hope Royal assent will be achievable within

:34:49. > :34:51.March but it may be April but I am also respectful of the Scottish

:34:52. > :35:00.Parliament process and the need for a legislative consent motion. I

:35:01. > :35:05.thank the Secretary Of State for advanced sight of his statement. I

:35:06. > :35:07.note the Secretary makes mention of the UK Government holding population

:35:08. > :35:13.risks. Will he concedes that the limited powers available to the

:35:14. > :35:17.Scottish Government do not allow for population growth and will he now

:35:18. > :35:26.listen to calls for a cottage posts by the work scheme? In relation to

:35:27. > :35:29.the latter I have had the pleasure to appear before the Scottish

:35:30. > :35:34.appears select committee and be grilled on the issue of student work

:35:35. > :35:40.visas. I made very clear that I would look closely at the work the

:35:41. > :35:46.committee has produced and I repeat that undertaking. What I do not do

:35:47. > :35:50.is I do not accept the premise of her question. I believe that

:35:51. > :35:54.properly used the tax and other powers that the Scottish Government

:35:55. > :35:57.have will allow it to grow the Scottish economy, create jobs and

:35:58. > :36:09.grow the population of Scotland. He talks a lot negotiations, but

:36:10. > :36:17.this is a point. When they first considered making cuts, could be

:36:18. > :36:22.Secretary of State, the man in the Cabinet, see what measures he made

:36:23. > :36:25.to protect Scotland? I have been closely involved in these

:36:26. > :36:34.discussions throughout. But they are negotiations. They are not about the

:36:35. > :36:38.Treasury imposing. As Smith himself recognises, they are about the two

:36:39. > :36:42.governments coming together in a difficult circumstance to negotiate

:36:43. > :36:48.about money, which is often the most contentious thing that is the

:36:49. > :36:51.subject of negotiations. What we have demonstrated is that both

:36:52. > :37:03.reach a deal which is good for both. reach a deal which is good for both.

:37:04. > :37:07.Thank you. He has just confirmed that the initial proposal put

:37:08. > :37:12.forward by the Treasury of a ?7 billion cut to Scotland's budget was

:37:13. > :37:17.not an opening negotiation position, but a serious proposal. In the light

:37:18. > :37:27.of that, I would like to ask, does he consider himself Scotland's man

:37:28. > :37:35.in the Cabinet or the Cabinet's man in Scotland? What complete and utter

:37:36. > :37:41.nonsense. This is an investigation. It was conducted by John Swinney. He

:37:42. > :37:44.adopted a completely different tone. Civil and cordial throughout. I

:37:45. > :37:50.respect his objective of getting the best deal for Scotland. That is my

:37:51. > :37:55.objective, too, but we have to get an agreement. And we got one. It is

:37:56. > :38:00.a good one. It is an opportunity to move away from the grievance agenda.

:38:01. > :38:03.I am afraid this afternoon's proceedings leave me in doubt that

:38:04. > :38:13.even with these extensive new powers, the S NP will be able to

:38:14. > :38:17.leave that grievance agenda behind. He has repeatedly criticised the

:38:18. > :38:23.party for failing to set out how they will use the new powers. But

:38:24. > :38:26.barely an hour ago, the Prime Minister floundered badly when asked

:38:27. > :38:32.whether the Scottish Conservatives would reduce the tax rate on high

:38:33. > :38:37.earners. I'm sure he would like to avoid suggestions of hypocrisy and

:38:38. > :38:42.extend his criticism to his boss. I have nothing but admiration for Ruth

:38:43. > :38:46.Davidson. She's the one person in the Scottish Parliament that can

:38:47. > :38:51.stand up to the SNP and hold them at her account. And if people don't

:38:52. > :38:58.want a 1-party state in Scotland, the way to achieve that is by voting

:38:59. > :39:03.Scottish Conservative. The Prime Minister didn't flounder. He told

:39:04. > :39:07.what the tax proposals are and they what the tax proposals are and they

:39:08. > :39:10.certainly won't be the same as the SNP's proposals revealed in the

:39:11. > :39:23.Scottish press today, to hit middle Scottish press today, to hit middle

:39:24. > :39:27.earners hard. Order. Thank you. I would like to raise a matter that

:39:28. > :39:31.was addressed at the adjournment debate on Monday evening. During it,

:39:32. > :39:35.I asked the minister about negotiations that may have taken

:39:36. > :39:42.place ahead of the ship to ship transfer proposition to take place.

:39:43. > :39:46.And I asked specifically if Marine Scotland, representing the Scottish

:39:47. > :39:53.Government, had been consulted. I got a reply, which is not in my

:39:54. > :40:01.hands, which is as follows... Marine Scotland will directly -- were

:40:02. > :40:05.directly consulted. It has not responded. When it was asked whether

:40:06. > :40:12.it tended to respond, the answer was no. I hope that our fries that

:40:13. > :40:20.point. That is a very clear statement. -- that clarifies our

:40:21. > :40:25.point. I therefore checked that situation with the Scottish

:40:26. > :40:29.Government. And I have received the following response... "The Scottish

:40:30. > :40:32.Government is not aware of being directly approached by the UK

:40:33. > :40:43.Government during the consultation on the Cromarty for transfers. We

:40:44. > :40:51.were aware via informal contract. It is safe to say we were not contacted

:40:52. > :40:55.by the MCA or the Scottish Government." It is worrying, because

:40:56. > :41:00.it leaves open the suggestion that the government has been economical

:41:01. > :41:04.with the truth. That is a very serious matter, not least because of

:41:05. > :41:09.the potential threat that there are two those in my community of the

:41:10. > :41:16.ship to ship transfer taking place. The Scottish Government has not been

:41:17. > :41:18.adequately consulted on its responsibilities towards

:41:19. > :41:23.environmental protections. I'll ask your advice on whether it would be

:41:24. > :41:29.appropriate for the minister to correct the record. It is open to

:41:30. > :41:34.any member to voluntarily correct the record. It is not the

:41:35. > :41:39.responsibility of the chair to arbitrate between competing claims

:41:40. > :41:45.as to a sequence of events. Nor is it my responsibility to interpret

:41:46. > :41:48.what the minister might have meant in responding to the honourable

:41:49. > :41:52.gentleman at the time. The honourable gentleman has made his

:41:53. > :41:58.point with fourth and alacrity and we would expect no less of him. If

:41:59. > :42:04.the secretary wishes to respond, he is at liberty to do so. But he is

:42:05. > :42:11.under no obligation. I will have it investigated. He has said he will

:42:12. > :42:15.have the matter investigated. I ought to emphasise that the

:42:16. > :42:19.Secretary of State wasn't the responsible minister answering the

:42:20. > :42:22.debate. I hope that the honourable gentleman is satisfied with his

:42:23. > :42:32.prodigious efforts of the day. We might move on now. Specifically, I

:42:33. > :42:38.know the honourable gentleman will be absolutely delighted that we can

:42:39. > :42:44.now move on to the ten minute rule motion. To be put forward by his

:42:45. > :42:49.honourable friend. And I am sure he is sitting expectantly. With that in

:42:50. > :42:56.mind. Ten minute rule motion. Thank you. I asked leave to be given to

:42:57. > :43:00.bring a bill to require distance sellers to provide purchasers with

:43:01. > :43:07.the lowest cut available for delivery cost option. To establish

:43:08. > :43:12.administrative penalties were benders advertise statements such as

:43:13. > :43:17.free delivery, but subsequently impose charges. I am grateful for

:43:18. > :43:22.the opportunity to bring in the consumer protection distance selling

:43:23. > :43:28.delivery charges bill. But it is an issue that my constituents deal with

:43:29. > :43:34.on a daily basis. And they tell me about it regularly. I know the

:43:35. > :43:38.secretary is aware of our concerns. There is a consumer appetite for

:43:39. > :43:43.improved online shopping throughout our communities. But there are areas

:43:44. > :43:48.that have been badly served by retailers and carriers. The online

:43:49. > :43:52.shopping market is a growing market and is particularly important to

:43:53. > :43:56.rural communities. And paying more in the Highlands and Islands is

:43:57. > :44:05.unfair. We know the cost of delivery will always be big, but this is not

:44:06. > :44:09.what it is about. This is about people feeling excluded, because of

:44:10. > :44:15.a costly range of delivery options. Even people living in cities like

:44:16. > :44:21.Inverness are being charged for delivery of goods. My constituent

:44:22. > :44:26.was asked to pay ?90 for the delivery of a mobile phone. Current

:44:27. > :44:30.legislation is not working. I am very grateful for the sport of

:44:31. > :44:34.honourable members from all of the nations of the UK who have

:44:35. > :44:40.experienced similar issues. In Northern Ireland, 43% of consumers

:44:41. > :44:46.have accounted a delivery surcharge. And it is estimated that some

:44:47. > :44:52.shoppers pay on top of standard UK delivery costs. For the Highlands

:44:53. > :45:01.and Islands, 53% of retailers apply a delivery surcharge. Unfairness is

:45:02. > :45:05.not only wrong, it is bad for business. Resentful customers are

:45:06. > :45:09.created when seven in ten consumers reluctantly play a surcharge for

:45:10. > :45:14.delivery for that item. And that they will look elsewhere next time.

:45:15. > :45:19.There is those who tell us that these are just market forces at

:45:20. > :45:23.work. But in this connected world, it has already been accepted there

:45:24. > :45:30.is a need for universal services in broadband plan provision --

:45:31. > :45:34.provision to allow everyone to participate. If all this seems

:45:35. > :45:38.small, it should be remembered that it is this type of industrious that

:45:39. > :45:45.lives longest in the memory and the higher the price and loss of trust

:45:46. > :45:48.to disconnect. Because of their postcode, people are considered to

:45:49. > :45:53.be in the minority and not important. Why should we allow that

:45:54. > :45:57.prejudice? Many are already asked to pay more for fuel and heating and

:45:58. > :46:01.amongst them are often the most vulnerable consumers. And that is

:46:02. > :46:06.why it needs to be our collective responsibility, when talking about

:46:07. > :46:11.the delivery of goods, two first of all deliver the principle of

:46:12. > :46:19.fairness. So let's now shine a light on good retailers and carriers. This

:46:20. > :46:23.bill also calls for the introduction of a mark. Many companies work hard

:46:24. > :46:28.to ensure they provide a good service across our nations. They

:46:29. > :46:31.should be celebrated and recognised. Highlighting their good practices

:46:32. > :46:36.will allow them to access and help those currently being discriminated

:46:37. > :46:40.against. They in turn would benefit from increased business. Really good

:46:41. > :46:44.news for these companies is that those consumers are proven to be

:46:45. > :46:50.exceptionally loyal and will buy again. There is a reason that

:46:51. > :46:56.operators like eBay have introduced a premium seller badge. It makes

:46:57. > :47:00.good business sense. The principles that eBay are seeking to apply are

:47:01. > :47:05.very similar to those I am discussing today. A key part of the

:47:06. > :47:10.rating is based on delivery and shipping costs. Their sellers lose

:47:11. > :47:15.the rating based on -- when they have poor feedback. In this example,

:47:16. > :47:22.there is a consequence for poor behaviour. But the wider distance

:47:23. > :47:26.selling market has no such thing. There are no consequences for bad

:47:27. > :47:32.practice on mis-selling. A kite practice on mis-selling. A kite

:47:33. > :47:36.quality mark will allow consumers to easily identify those traders and

:47:37. > :47:41.carrier who can be trusted. This can be industry led. It will need

:47:42. > :47:46.careful fort. But there are no barriers that cannot be overcome.

:47:47. > :47:53.The consumer rights act of 2015 allowed to make law clearer. But a

:47:54. > :47:59.number of retailers are still unsure of their responsibilities. Greater

:48:00. > :48:04.awareness is needed. This is not an isolated problem. In preparation for

:48:05. > :48:10.this bill, I spoke to consumer boots, trading standards and

:48:11. > :48:17.retailers and others. -- consumer groups. Some research says that they

:48:18. > :48:22.should have an upfront disclosure at an early stage in the transaction

:48:23. > :48:27.process. It is not happening. Seven out of ten consumers do try to seek

:48:28. > :48:35.out this information try to checkout. Recent has showed that

:48:36. > :48:42.some retailers are still not complying fully with new consumer

:48:43. > :48:46.legislation. Benders of delivery companies are very discriminate

:48:47. > :48:50.based on location. There needs to be a clear understanding of the rights

:48:51. > :48:55.of consumers and the regions they would have the such an fairness or

:48:56. > :49:00.false advertising. Existing laws are often unenforced and too cumbersome.

:49:01. > :49:04.So opportunities around administrative penalties need to be

:49:05. > :49:09.considered. Online retailers do have the right to choose where they

:49:10. > :49:15.surprised they're good or services. But consumers should also have the

:49:16. > :49:21.right before they get the last page of the transaction. -- their goods.

:49:22. > :49:25.It should include prominent and transparent the contract terms.

:49:26. > :49:30.Including the total price and services and all delivery charges.

:49:31. > :49:37.Not misleading terms. Those people who are told they can take advantage

:49:38. > :49:42.of free delivery within the UK, when that is untrue is an example. In my

:49:43. > :49:46.constituency, there are many mysteries. Like the location of the

:49:47. > :49:51.Loch Ness Monster. The biggest mystery has to be why Inverness, one

:49:52. > :49:55.of the fastest-growing cities in Europe, are apparently not in the

:49:56. > :50:01.mainland. At least according to some careers. People are not buying boxes

:50:02. > :50:05.to Brigadoon, they are asking for things to be sent to a modern city.

:50:06. > :50:11.The discrimination test has been failed. But couriers can make the

:50:12. > :50:15.situation worse for retailers by using out of date postcode software.

:50:16. > :50:24.There is and is consistent and variable approach -- and

:50:25. > :50:30.inconsistent. It can lead to confusion and lost revenue for the

:50:31. > :50:34.retailers themselves. There has to be a greater understanding amongst

:50:35. > :50:37.consumers, retailers and careers about their rights and the

:50:38. > :50:42.consequences for bad practice. It's not just me saying this.

:50:43. > :50:46.Organisations like citizens advice Scotland are calling for greater

:50:47. > :50:51.intervention and education. This bill also sets out the need for

:50:52. > :50:56.greater consumer choice. People often do not have those choices. Why

:50:57. > :51:01.are people in the Highlands and Islands paying more than ?15 more

:51:02. > :51:02.for delivery when we have a universal Royal Mail servers? They

:51:03. > :51:18.should have a clear option. On the ability to arrange their own

:51:19. > :51:23.pick-up from the vendor. They should have the right to choose. I know

:51:24. > :51:27.this will mean a change in working practices but barriers can always

:51:28. > :51:31.been overcome which will mean better business. I am sure there are

:51:32. > :51:34.exciting new business opportunities that could be explored in this area

:51:35. > :51:38.including the possible use of delivery Roker 's or working with

:51:39. > :51:43.other companies to maximise potential. In conclusion, in

:51:44. > :51:47.introducing this bill we aim to work with government, business and people

:51:48. > :51:57.to establish and provide not yet another set of promises but another

:51:58. > :52:00.set of solutions. Make sure there is clarity around the expectations set

:52:01. > :52:04.out in current legislation and consider the option of

:52:05. > :52:10.administrative penalties for continued abuse. The choice of

:52:11. > :52:14.delivery, let them decide if they want universal services, they are

:52:15. > :52:18.challenges but let's decide to support those people who find

:52:19. > :52:21.themselves in the election. They are not asking for the unattainable,

:52:22. > :52:25.they do not expect to be treated with and you favour but should not

:52:26. > :52:31.continue to be ignored. They deserve to be delivered to. The opportunity

:52:32. > :52:38.is here with this ilk to take action. The question is that the

:52:39. > :52:51.honourable member have leave to bring in the bill. Politics macro.

:52:52. > :53:05.As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". Who

:53:06. > :53:28.will bring in the Bill? Others and myself, sir. Mr Drew Hendry.

:53:29. > :53:38.Consumer protection distance selling delivery charges Bill. Second

:53:39. > :53:44.reading what day? Friday the 11th of March 2016. Thank you. We now come

:53:45. > :53:49.to the motion in the name of the Leader of the Opposition relating to

:53:50. > :53:57.transitional state pension arrangements for women. To move the

:53:58. > :54:02.motion I called the saddle Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, Mr

:54:03. > :54:09.Owen Smith. Thank you I am extremely grateful. I wanted to start today's

:54:10. > :54:12.important debate I saying how lucky I have been to always come from a

:54:13. > :54:19.family of strong and hard-working women. Mother and grandmother 's and

:54:20. > :54:23.now my wife and daughter and if the ears one thing I learned from all of

:54:24. > :54:29.them it is never to try to rule the world over their eyes. Never to try

:54:30. > :54:34.and take them from fools because I will guarantee you will always be

:54:35. > :54:40.found out. It is a lesson that the Tories really ought to have learned

:54:41. > :54:46.back in 1991 when they first started whining to equalise the pension age

:54:47. > :54:52.for women with men because that is precisely what has happened. We have

:54:53. > :54:58.been found out. Fine to have field in their duty to inform women

:54:59. > :55:02.properly about the changes planned. Hundreds of thousands of women were

:55:03. > :55:09.left unprepared for a decision that would see the unprepared lose up to

:55:10. > :55:14.?36,000 in tension payments. It compounded the error in 2011 when

:55:15. > :55:23.further delay of ancient age to 66 was rammed through with barely two

:55:24. > :55:26.years notice. Found in the words of their on pensions minister, the

:55:27. > :55:35.current pensions Minister, to have pulled the rug from under 206

:55:36. > :55:41.million British women. Labour today is going to speak for those 2.6

:55:42. > :55:51.million women and ask the government what they now plan to do to make

:55:52. > :55:55.amends. Before we get to party political about this it can be said

:55:56. > :55:58.that back in 1995 and individual orders should be given but shortly

:55:59. > :56:03.after Labour came in, where nearly one dozen Labour pension ministers

:56:04. > :56:08.over that time there were still 20 years away, and you not accept that

:56:09. > :56:12.we all have lessons to learn, and individual motors should have been

:56:13. > :56:17.sent out by all governments or at least buy one and he had the

:56:18. > :56:20.opportunity of those years? With respect I did not have an

:56:21. > :56:23.opportunity because I was not he that the time however I think he is

:56:24. > :56:28.right all successive month have a lesson to be learned from this sorry

:56:29. > :56:34.affair however the truth is I intend to spell out in my speeches this was

:56:35. > :56:41.first mooted in 1991 and no substantive efforts were made by the

:56:42. > :56:46.then Tory government between 1995 or indeed 1991 and 1997 when the left

:56:47. > :56:50.office, to offer a proper notice to people. The Labour government

:56:51. > :56:54.thereafter did attempt to do that and I will renew many in my speech

:56:55. > :57:00.exactly how we try to make amends but it was compounded by the current

:57:01. > :57:02.government is my actions in 2011. If anybody has lessons to learn out of

:57:03. > :57:06.visited the Conservative Party have visited the Conservative Party have

:57:07. > :57:12.the greatest responsibility to bear for these changes and have now the

:57:13. > :57:20.duty to make amends for them. I will make progress and then give way.

:57:21. > :57:22.This started back in 1991, that was when the Tory government first

:57:23. > :57:29.consulted on their intention to ship the state pension age for women from

:57:30. > :57:36.60 two 65 Queen it had been since the 1940s. The Chancellor then in

:57:37. > :57:42.the 1993 budget formally stated his intention to make this move and

:57:43. > :57:51.legislated for Ed through 1994 and 1995. The 1995 at stipulated the

:57:52. > :57:58.pension age would rise during 2010 and 2020 which means women born

:57:59. > :58:02.between April 1950 and December 1959 would have two week at a mean one

:58:03. > :58:07.month and five extra years before they could draw their pensions. You

:58:08. > :58:11.would have thought that such a massive change, the biggest change

:58:12. > :58:13.to women's pensions and happy century, would have been

:58:14. > :58:20.communicated with great care and with fanfare but it wasn't. Some of

:58:21. > :58:23.the women concerned were as young as 39 at the time and so it was

:58:24. > :58:29.unlikely they were looking at the ages of the financial papers or,

:58:30. > :58:33.indeed, being much it attention to the scant effort is made by the

:58:34. > :58:40.government to tell them about the changes. I am grateful but will he

:58:41. > :58:44.not accept that in 2004 DWP select committee found that the quarters of

:58:45. > :58:49.women of that age at the time whether we'd the changes of the 1995

:58:50. > :58:55.act so while I accept you were some changes and mistakes on both sides

:58:56. > :58:59.of the House three quarters of women did know about the changes. I am

:59:00. > :59:03.wheezed to swap stories about what government knew at the time, the

:59:04. > :59:08.question asked in the 2004 survey by the then Labour government concerned

:59:09. > :59:13.that the previous Tory government had not made proper provisions for

:59:14. > :59:18.women was indeed not unfortunately as straightforward as it should have

:59:19. > :59:24.been. Other surveys, 56, found that around 70 two 80% of women involved

:59:25. > :59:27.did not know these changes were taking place. It is no surprise they

:59:28. > :59:32.did not know because the government of the time, the Conservative

:59:33. > :59:37.government, spent little money advertising this. Here where few

:59:38. > :59:41.adverts in newspapers and letters when available to individuals if

:59:42. > :59:47.they requested them and many did not. I will quote one of those

:59:48. > :59:51.letters after I have given way. Thank you for giving way. Can I

:59:52. > :59:54.formed the House I have had constituents right to me to say they

:59:55. > :59:59.have stayed at this same address for the last 30 or 40 years and have

:00:00. > :00:05.received nothing to tell them about the changes? An extremely common

:00:06. > :00:11.experience for MPs in this House because the truth is the letters

:00:12. > :00:15.went out in 1995 by the then Tory government where neither use nor

:00:16. > :00:21.ornament. I have one here sent on the 13th of June 1995. The archive

:00:22. > :00:27.pages here and on not one of them does it mention the pension age is

:00:28. > :00:30.going to rise to 65. On every single page refers to the fact the state

:00:31. > :00:36.pension age for women is actually 60s and on the final page offers

:00:37. > :00:40.this extraordinary position that a formal be sent out inviting you to

:00:41. > :00:45.claim your state retirement pension a few months before you reach 60 but

:00:46. > :00:48.that was in the very month T-bill was going through this House and

:00:49. > :00:57.that government and it is a measure of what desperately were a job they

:00:58. > :01:01.did to inform people. I give way. I thank him for getting me. I have

:01:02. > :01:06.lost number of the people who have contacted me to say they had no idea

:01:07. > :01:08.of the pension changes, they heard about it on the radio or TV

:01:09. > :01:14.unfortunately we are raising this raw file on the government 's behalf

:01:15. > :01:18.but is it not insulting of the government benches to suggest these

:01:19. > :01:21.women are wrong or lying on that date is something wrong with them

:01:22. > :01:29.when ultimately it is the government is my responsibility to communicate

:01:30. > :01:31.these changes? It is wrong and insulting and compounds the

:01:32. > :01:39.fundamental insult that women who, by and large, have smaller pensions

:01:40. > :01:43.because they dealt with lower wages throughout their entire lives while

:01:44. > :01:47.bleeding a burden for the rest of us cannot access their pensions. She is

:01:48. > :01:51.entirely right it is completely insulting to suggest that there was

:01:52. > :01:56.robber notice given because the truth is, it was a botched job. The

:01:57. > :02:00.botched job from start to finish. The reason we now it is the botched

:02:01. > :02:05.job is because the current mentions Minister, the Conservative tensions

:02:06. > :02:09.minister in the House of lords, it says it was. She says clearly many

:02:10. > :02:14.of these women were expecting to receive a pension at age 60 since

:02:15. > :02:24.they were unaware of the changes made in 1995. Dan out of their own

:02:25. > :02:29.minds. I give way. I'm usually helpful to the spokesman. I am one

:02:30. > :02:33.of those women and I have never received a letter, I have never been

:02:34. > :02:39.notified and I think the department might know where I live. I cannot

:02:40. > :02:44.believe for a minute that the Honourable lady is old enough to be

:02:45. > :02:50.one of the women concerned. It tests the credibility of the highs that

:02:51. > :02:55.back you'd be so but I am grateful to her for her intervention. The

:02:56. > :03:02.last Labour government, I will give way to a gentleman. Thank you for

:03:03. > :03:06.giving way. Does he also recognise that the lot of women like Jane

:03:07. > :03:11.manners in my constituency who assumed she would be retiring at 60

:03:12. > :03:16.and is now disabled as no way to make up for the six years she has

:03:17. > :03:19.lost because of these changes? That is the case for thousands of women

:03:20. > :03:25.across this country which is why this is more than a small campaign.

:03:26. > :03:30.It is a fundamental injustice that must be changed. I give way. Can I

:03:31. > :03:34.thank my honourable friend who is making a very good speech? I find

:03:35. > :03:40.the number of women who are competing in the constituency and I

:03:41. > :03:43.am absolutely convinced of the conservatory that they do not know

:03:44. > :03:48.anything about this due to a lack of notification. We saw at the Prime

:03:49. > :03:54.Minister's Question Time a complete misunderstanding. My honourable

:03:55. > :04:01.friend is entirely right and he will know he was part of the last Labour

:04:02. > :04:04.government, we did try to improve this set of circumstances, we did

:04:05. > :04:09.conduct the survey talked about and there was a worrying low level of

:04:10. > :04:15.understanding. Between 2004 and 2009 several million pounds advertising

:04:16. > :04:19.campaigns and 800,000 personalised letters were sent out by the then

:04:20. > :04:23.Labour government to the affected women such as this one which in

:04:24. > :04:29.stark contrast to the Tory letter I cited earlier on does say on the

:04:30. > :04:35.first page that this person, the addressee, will be affected by the

:04:36. > :04:38.allergy is testified to by so many allergy is testified to by so many

:04:39. > :04:45.of my honourable friends and by the brilliant women of the war speak

:04:46. > :04:49.campaign whose tenacity and truth telling I think we should pay

:04:50. > :04:53.tribute to right across this House today cause they speak for hundreds

:04:54. > :05:02.of thousands of women. They did not know that they were in the firing

:05:03. > :05:05.line. Thank you for giving way. Ford thousand 465 women in my

:05:06. > :05:10.constituency will be affected by this. You are also not agree with me

:05:11. > :05:16.it is an historic inequality in the system which has caused this? Of

:05:17. > :05:21.course it is. There were historic inequalities that existed then and

:05:22. > :05:25.persist now. The gender a gap affects women, they don't have the

:05:26. > :05:29.full stand-by of them because of caring duties and that is why it is

:05:30. > :05:36.be asked to pay a price in their be asked to pay a price in their

:05:37. > :05:41.retirement. I give way. That he also agree with me that we are talking

:05:42. > :05:44.about a generation of women who are doubly disadvantaged, many of whom

:05:45. > :05:50.wear at work before the OP act came into force who had to take low-paid

:05:51. > :05:56.part-time jobs because of lack of childcare and the government is now

:05:57. > :06:09.keeping insult upon injury in disadvantage in once again? More

:06:10. > :06:15.from the constituency of my right honourable friend then anywhere else

:06:16. > :06:23.in this country. A magnificent job by the women. I will quote the

:06:24. > :06:28.current pensions Minister, because she said... "Across the country, I

:06:29. > :06:32.am hearing from women who are enduring that sudden, sickening

:06:33. > :06:37.realisation that their destiny in retirement is not in their own

:06:38. > :06:44.hands. And this is not about fairy tale luxury retirement millers. This

:06:45. > :06:51.is about affording the basics." The government cannot run from it. --

:06:52. > :06:55.retirement villas. I would like to challenge the figure that was voted

:06:56. > :07:02.from the opposite side. And the member from the front bench may have

:07:03. > :07:12.the figure. The one I saw from the di WP investigation in 2004 was just

:07:13. > :07:15.above 40%. It was not 75%. For such a cataclysmic change, every single

:07:16. > :07:25.one of these women should have had a simple letter on their doormat in

:07:26. > :07:31.1995. -- DWP investigation. She is right. Even if it was 40%, that is

:07:32. > :07:39.40% too many. There were five or six other surveys done in this country

:07:40. > :07:44.which suggests it was 80% of women who were unaware. The reality is

:07:45. > :07:49.that it was far greater. I think the scale of this problem only truly

:07:50. > :07:53.started to dawn on people and the governments when they decided to

:07:54. > :08:03.double down on their calamity with the 2011 pensions act. I will give

:08:04. > :08:09.way. I am very grateful. Of course, he is about to come onto the

:08:10. > :08:17.injustice of the 2011 act. Isn't the real issue here is not just the

:08:18. > :08:22.ladies have been hit twice by an increase in their state pension age,

:08:23. > :08:27.but there was no transitional arrangement put in place? Isn't that

:08:28. > :08:32.why it is absolutely right that we support the Labour motion today to

:08:33. > :08:37.get the government off the fence and provide these ladies with the

:08:38. > :08:40.transition they deserve? This house and the government benches would do

:08:41. > :08:47.well to heed the words of my honourable friend, because he has

:08:48. > :08:53.been the biggest campaigner in this house on their behalf. He speaks the

:08:54. > :08:56.truth, when he says members should back our motion and provides

:08:57. > :09:06.transitional protections for these women. The 2011 act broke not only

:09:07. > :09:10.the promise that the pension age won't rise until 2020. It also broke

:09:11. > :09:15.the promise that no rises would occur without at least ten years

:09:16. > :09:22.notice. It gave those women who suffered the double blow just two

:09:23. > :09:29.years notice. It was a decision that has already been described by the

:09:30. > :09:34.former pensions minister as" an ill informed mistake" he tried to make

:09:35. > :09:40.up for it in office and secured some mitigation for the 300,000 women.

:09:41. > :09:47.The current minister will no doubt mention this in a minute. Telling us

:09:48. > :09:51.it cost 1.1 billion. But I bet he won't remind us his predecessor was

:09:52. > :09:55.looking for 3 billion in order to offer those transitional

:09:56. > :09:58.protections. I suspect he may only say that half of that 1 billion went

:09:59. > :10:07.to men. I support the motion, because I

:10:08. > :10:11.support the women and the transitional arrangements. But I

:10:12. > :10:15.have to say he is making it more difficult for me and colleagues to

:10:16. > :10:20.vote for it by trying to make it such a partisan thing. 13 years of

:10:21. > :10:24.his government did not help the situation. Could I suggest that in

:10:25. > :10:28.the spirit of the motion he could get some more details of what those

:10:29. > :10:32.transitional arrangements should be, so we can start a dialogue, which

:10:33. > :10:38.the government should have started some time ago to see if there is a

:10:39. > :10:44.compromise to help those women who need it? I am sorry if I am bruising

:10:45. > :10:48.his feelings with the nature of my remarks. I am very pleased that he

:10:49. > :10:54.has supported the campaign. I know he has been brave enough to speak in

:10:55. > :11:05.favour of it. And I am positive that a man of his resolve

:11:06. > :11:10.will not be put off by a few words across the dispatch box. And will

:11:11. > :11:12.vote irrespective of what I said. I will come onto precisely the sort of

:11:13. > :11:16.transitional arrangements that the government should undertake. I am

:11:17. > :11:27.grateful. This is the third opportunity we have had to debate

:11:28. > :11:32.this. First of all, back and forth. The government has an opportunity to

:11:33. > :11:36.do the right thing by the women of this country. Why don't we just

:11:37. > :11:44.grasp it with both hands and deliver it for them? Why don't they? Why

:11:45. > :11:48.doesn't the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, who occasionally

:11:49. > :11:52.comes to this chamber to answer questions... He's ducked out on the

:11:53. > :11:57.last five and once again he is not here. We ought to sanction him for

:11:58. > :12:02.failing to turn up to work. I think it is a good idea. The truth is the

:12:03. > :12:08.government is offering any further suggestions themselves. As to how

:12:09. > :12:12.they might do what the Secretary of State promised in 2011. He said that

:12:13. > :12:17.they would be transitional arrangements put in place for these

:12:18. > :12:24.women. And he hasn't offered it. The government has offered nothing. In

:12:25. > :12:30.truth, it offers defensive positions only. I hate to be partisan. It

:12:31. > :12:34.really isn't in my nature to be partisan. But I draw attention to

:12:35. > :12:43.the guidance on the women's against state pension and equality with's

:12:44. > :12:47.note. It says quite clearly that the campaign are demanding that all

:12:48. > :12:52.women born before 1951 be given their pension age of 60. It says no

:12:53. > :12:57.one will see any reaction in their income. It claims the rise in state

:12:58. > :13:04.pension age has been widely communicated. And it says that

:13:05. > :13:10.absolutely nothing more can be done. -- any reduction in their income.

:13:11. > :13:14.Again, it is wrong. They have lost income. The income they would have

:13:15. > :13:21.been paid out in the previous arrangements. They were not widely

:13:22. > :13:27.communicated, the changes. And they are not opposed to the equalisation

:13:28. > :13:32.of the state pension. They are petitioning over 155,000 signatures

:13:33. > :13:36.saying so explicitly. They do support it. What they want is what

:13:37. > :13:45.the government promised. Transitional arrangements. Of the

:13:46. > :13:50.4100 women in my constituency, affected by these changes, one of

:13:51. > :13:58.them recently told me "Throughout my life, a number of changes have

:13:59. > :14:02.impacted on me and my friends, such as an equal pay, dismissal for

:14:03. > :14:06.pregnancy and a lack of childcare. Does he agree with me there is still

:14:07. > :14:10.time for the government to correct this injustice and in the interests

:14:11. > :14:14.of being nonpartisan, please do the right thing and put in place

:14:15. > :14:19.transitional measures? She is entirely right. There are other

:14:20. > :14:24.injustices in the workplace and on payday that women have suffered in

:14:25. > :14:29.this country over generations. This is another one that has been heaped

:14:30. > :14:36.upon them. There are different arrangements that could be put in

:14:37. > :14:41.place. I will give way. Thank you. I am grateful. With the honourable

:14:42. > :14:45.gentleman take the opportunity to acknowledge a very serious injustice

:14:46. > :14:49.that has been suffered by the women born in the 50s who had been offered

:14:50. > :14:54.and have accepted retirement packages from their employers which

:14:55. > :15:01.have included a figure assuming they were going to retire at 60? With no

:15:02. > :15:06.surprise, the honourable lady who speaks with great erudition in this

:15:07. > :15:10.house highlights yet another injustice. I say again that the

:15:11. > :15:17.government must recognise this. They must bring forward some suggestions,

:15:18. > :15:20.because there are many ways they could mitigate this problem. There

:15:21. > :15:28.are lots of arrangements that could be put in place. I will list six.

:15:29. > :15:34.Before I do, I will give way. I am grateful. The case he is making now

:15:35. > :15:40.is absolutely right. The point is the government has made a mistake.

:15:41. > :15:47.It isn't too late for them to stand up and put things right and imagery

:15:48. > :15:53.of thousands of women and their husbands by this impact. -- the

:15:54. > :15:57.misery. They could put it right. Bickered and the Minister has five

:15:58. > :16:04.minutes to come up with what he wants to see. -- they could. I'm

:16:05. > :16:08.going to give him six suggestions. First of all, they could decide to

:16:09. > :16:16.delay the pension age increase till 2020. That is the option that the

:16:17. > :16:20.current pensions minister in the house of lords favours. They could

:16:21. > :16:27.cap the maximum state pension increase from the 2011 at at 12

:16:28. > :16:32.months, as her predecessor advocated. They could keep the

:16:33. > :16:37.qualifying age for pension credit on the previous timetable, helping out

:16:38. > :16:42.some of the poorest women in the category. As Labour suggested in

:16:43. > :16:47.2011. They could allow early access for those affected to take a reduced

:16:48. > :16:52.pension at an earlier age during the transition. They could extend the

:16:53. > :17:01.timetable for increasing the overall state pension by 18 months to reach

:17:02. > :17:06.66 by April 20 22. Finally, they could pay a lower state pension for

:17:07. > :17:10.a longer period throughout the pensionable age of the women

:17:11. > :17:15.affected. All of those things would of course have costs, but all of

:17:16. > :17:19.those things are ways in which the government could act. Or the need

:17:20. > :17:27.from the government is not more carping, but the world to get on and

:17:28. > :17:34.do something about it. -- the will. It would be helpful to put 3450

:17:35. > :17:40.women in my constituency... All six points. And someone has written to

:17:41. > :17:45.me who said that she never received the letter. She only found out from

:17:46. > :17:50.her workplace. She is now unemployed and has been for 20 months. She is

:17:51. > :17:57.looking hard for jobs. But she's worried now whether she will have to

:17:58. > :18:02.work more in order to make up for the lost contribution she has made.

:18:03. > :18:08.She is in a difficult position, no guidance. Why doesn't the government

:18:09. > :18:12.help her? He speaks with passion and knowledge about the 4000 odd women

:18:13. > :18:19.in his constituency. There are thousands of women in his

:18:20. > :18:27.constituency -- our constituencies. One of those must be put in place.

:18:28. > :18:31.Constituents like Mrs Cox in my constituency do not object to the

:18:32. > :18:38.principle of equalisation. But they do object to the point that he is

:18:39. > :18:41.quite rightly making about speed and scale of change. That is why his

:18:42. > :18:49.point about transitional arrangements are so important. Can

:18:50. > :18:54.he also deal with the insidious invasion of responsibility among

:18:55. > :18:58.some members opposite who are trying to blame the European Union rather

:18:59. > :19:02.than their own government's decision for the measures they have taken.

:19:03. > :19:07.This is not happening in other countries in this way. It is their

:19:08. > :19:12.decision and though one else's. That is where he is right now, blaming

:19:13. > :19:18.them for his sins about in action. Mrs Cox speaks entirely for all of

:19:19. > :19:28.the women in the campaign who are not opposed to the equalisation at

:19:29. > :19:39.65 or 66. But they are opposed to the injustices being visited upon

:19:40. > :19:45.them. The truth is we have had quite enough talk about this. The sins are

:19:46. > :19:53.very well-known and the government should act. They were their bills in

:19:54. > :19:58.95 and 2011 and their mistakes and it is for them to put it right.

:19:59. > :20:02.Women in Britain have suffered inequality in the workplace and on

:20:03. > :20:07.payday for far too long. No government should compound that fact

:20:08. > :20:12.when the carers and the grafters in our society, whom we rely on so

:20:13. > :20:17.much, come to their retirement date. There is a budget in three weeks.

:20:18. > :20:27.And the Chancellor had a golden opportunity to rise to the challenge

:20:28. > :20:29.and put in place one the six variants of transitional

:20:30. > :20:30.arrangements that I have talked about today. And he would be well

:20:31. > :20:39.advised to do so. As my friend mentions the budget,

:20:40. > :20:44.would he agree with me that given cooperation tax cuts and cuts to

:20:45. > :20:49.inheritance tax we saw in the chance' most recent budget, he

:20:50. > :20:58.clearly has the will to spend, and he must pay attention now to the

:20:59. > :21:03.Waspi campaign. At the last budget he found ?27 billion extra in tax

:21:04. > :21:07.revenues, a handy windfall down the back of the sofa. But the Waspi

:21:08. > :21:13.women will have heard he didn't spend a red cent of it on them, and

:21:14. > :21:18.he could have done. If he continues to play the Waspi women for fools,

:21:19. > :21:25.and continues to take our pensioners for granted, he will live to regret

:21:26. > :21:29.it. And that is a sentiment that I think we can share right across this

:21:30. > :21:36.house. It's why not a single Conservative member chose to vote

:21:37. > :21:39.against either of the previous calls for a transitional arrangements in

:21:40. > :21:44.any of the debates we have helped. It's why so many of the Conservative

:21:45. > :21:49.backbenchers have pledged the support to the Waspi campaign. And

:21:50. > :21:55.it's why this issue will not go away without action from the government.

:21:56. > :22:01.In conclusion, I give way to the campaign for Eccles. I'm grateful to

:22:02. > :22:04.my honourable friend for giving way, I want to make sure we don't have

:22:05. > :22:08.the same excuses from the Minister when he comes to speak in a moment

:22:09. > :22:13.that he has made before, that equalisation was necessary to meet

:22:14. > :22:16.the UK obligations under EU law, is what we heard, and what members

:22:17. > :22:23.opposite have been writing out, but that is not true. The interesting

:22:24. > :22:27.thing about changing previous legislation is that Poland is now

:22:28. > :22:30.moving legislation to reverse the reforms they have previously made

:22:31. > :22:35.because they clearly realise that they got it wrong, like this

:22:36. > :22:39.government has got it wrong. Poland has realised they moved too fast,

:22:40. > :22:43.France and Germany have done the same. Countries and governments

:22:44. > :22:48.across Europe, right-wing governments in parts of Europe, have

:22:49. > :22:52.acknowledged they made a mistake and backtracking. Only this government

:22:53. > :22:56.refuses to acknowledge any mistake and refuses to acknowledge that they

:22:57. > :23:01.have any culpability or responsibility. This issue will not

:23:02. > :23:07.go away. The ministers should come to the dispatch box in a moment and

:23:08. > :23:11.offer us some glint of sunlight, some hope for the Waspi women, that

:23:12. > :23:16.they have heard their campaign and they will do something about it. And

:23:17. > :23:17.if they do not, I urge all members across the back benches to do so on

:23:18. > :23:33.their behalf. Madam Deputy Speaker, colleagues,

:23:34. > :23:36.ladies and gentlemen, can I just say that the honourable gentleman has

:23:37. > :23:43.just done a speech which is more politics than substance. And given

:23:44. > :23:48.that he has declared himself to be a leadership contender in the event of

:23:49. > :23:56.a leadership contest for Labour, it is clear that his audience today was

:23:57. > :24:05.more towards getting nominated as the leader, rather than dealing with

:24:06. > :24:09.the substance at hand. There is chuntering from the front bench,

:24:10. > :24:12.what about the women? Besides the, what about the women and the debate

:24:13. > :24:23.focused on the women, what about some substance. I wish to make a

:24:24. > :24:29.little bit of progress. I will give way but I wish to make a little bit

:24:30. > :24:34.of progress. Honourable members will be aware that the women state

:24:35. > :24:39.pension age was changed in 1995 to equalise with the state pension age

:24:40. > :24:45.for men. Equalisation was then accelerated in the pensions act of

:24:46. > :24:50.2011 following extensive debates in both houses of parliament. Those

:24:51. > :24:55.changes are about bringing gender equality to pensions for the first

:24:56. > :25:00.time. They are about reflecting rises in life expectancy, life

:25:01. > :25:06.expectancy is that continue to rise for both men and women, and which

:25:07. > :25:13.will bring spending on pensions to most more sustainable levels. I will

:25:14. > :25:18.give way. I want to point out to him that I think the audience for today

:25:19. > :25:21.are the huge numbers of women across the country who are personally

:25:22. > :25:26.affected by this. One of them has written to me to say, when

:25:27. > :25:30.equalisation for pensions was first introduced in 1995, I was informed I

:25:31. > :25:36.could collect state pension at 64. But in 2011 that moved to 66. This

:25:37. > :25:42.is very unfair to me and many other women. It affects bearing the brunt

:25:43. > :25:48.of the changes twice. Labour has recognised that, that is why we have

:25:49. > :25:54.a motion today for transitional arrangements and why doesn't the

:25:55. > :26:00.minister back us on this? As far as the context of the honourable Lady's

:26:01. > :26:04.question is concerned, I will address those issues in my speech

:26:05. > :26:08.later on. But she's absolutely right to say that the audience for today's

:26:09. > :26:13.debate are the women concerned. And I in my speech intends to address

:26:14. > :26:20.the substance of the subject rather than be politics. I wonder if he was

:26:21. > :26:24.struck as I was in the 30 minutes the Shadow Minister took to set up

:26:25. > :26:28.the challenges we faced, he didn't actually tell us at all what the

:26:29. > :26:31.Labour Party would do, or which of the six changes he would commit to,

:26:32. > :26:37.or whether he would commit to all six of those changes. My honourable

:26:38. > :26:46.friend is absolutely right. It was a speech full of bluster, which made

:26:47. > :26:53.no options. What he failed to do was to recognise the cost, to speak

:26:54. > :26:59.about the cost, or explain why it was that this issue was not in the

:27:00. > :27:06.Labour Party manifesto. The luxury of opposition is to be able to spend

:27:07. > :27:09.money after which they have no account or responsibility. The

:27:10. > :27:13.difficulty of government is to actually deal with taxpayers money

:27:14. > :27:21.and take the difficult decisions that are necessary. I will give way.

:27:22. > :27:26.The minister speaks as if in the last Parliament we did nothing to

:27:27. > :27:31.bring this to the government's attention. That is straightforwardly

:27:32. > :27:34.not true. I participated in debate after debate with the then member

:27:35. > :27:38.for Leeds West, who brought it to the government's attention time and

:27:39. > :27:44.again. We have had so many debates about it, can't get on and talk

:27:45. > :27:48.about what we will do about it. I will come later in my speech to the

:27:49. > :27:53.debate we had in 2011, but if she talks about previous governments,

:27:54. > :27:57.can I gently remind her of the 13 years of Labour government, the ten

:27:58. > :28:02.pensions ministers who were there, one of whom was in place twice in

:28:03. > :28:06.his job, and the nine secretaries of state for work and pensions, and she

:28:07. > :28:12.might just, in the interest of fairness, she might wish to

:28:13. > :28:17.acknowledge the absolute limited work, if any, that was done during

:28:18. > :28:23.13 years of Labour government to put on as they put it, matters right. I

:28:24. > :28:28.will give way. He says it was limited, but can I point out that a

:28:29. > :28:32.couple of weeks ago it was conceded by his government that Labour spent

:28:33. > :28:38.over ?500 million advertising these changes and sent out over 800,000

:28:39. > :28:44.letters, in stark contrast to the previous Conservative cupboard who

:28:45. > :28:50.did, frankly, down all. -- Conservative government. If he is so

:28:51. > :28:55.proud of what the Labour government did before, why he is he

:28:56. > :29:02.complaining? It had very little impact, otherwise he would not have

:29:03. > :29:05.the these comments. When it comes to equalisation, how much leeway would

:29:06. > :29:15.does the government have under EU law? EU law does require us to have

:29:16. > :29:22.equalisation of pension ages. In my speech later I will come to

:29:23. > :29:28.countries who have already achieved what we are still end def ring to

:29:29. > :29:32.achieve. Incidentally, when the Shadow Secretary of State spoke of

:29:33. > :29:38.Jimmy, he's wrong, they have already achieved equalisation. -- spoke of

:29:39. > :29:43.Germany. The honourable gentleman ought to recognise that while EU law

:29:44. > :29:47.requires equalisation of pension ages, it also allows for

:29:48. > :29:55.transitional arrangements in reaching that stage. Frankly, it's

:29:56. > :30:01.disingenuous to suggest otherwise. I will come to transitional

:30:02. > :30:06.arrangements a little later on. Thank you. There are women affected

:30:07. > :30:10.by this issue in Northumberland who are likely to be in serious

:30:11. > :30:14.financial difficulty, not most, but a view as a result of these changes.

:30:15. > :30:18.My concern is for the small number of women and I would be grateful if

:30:19. > :30:21.the minister and colleagues on these benches would like to look at these

:30:22. > :30:26.small group who are under financial pressures. The minister is always

:30:27. > :30:29.pleased to have meetings with colleagues and I more than happy to

:30:30. > :30:34.meet with her along with other people. I want to make some

:30:35. > :30:40.progress, I'm still my first page. I will give way and then I want to

:30:41. > :30:43.some progress. My honourable friend is saying something things about the

:30:44. > :30:47.opposition and they don't like it. What about a fair thing about the

:30:48. > :30:51.women directly elected. How people born within 12 months have a

:30:52. > :30:55.retirement age of nearly three years apart. That's the issue, and that is

:30:56. > :30:58.where better transitional arrangement is needed. We know this

:30:59. > :31:06.covenant has had to put right previous things previous governance

:31:07. > :31:10.have got wrong. If I'm allowed the opportunity to make some progress

:31:11. > :31:14.then I will talk about transitional arrangements and what we are doing.

:31:15. > :31:20.I will give way but I wish to make some progress. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:31:21. > :31:25.there has been much by way of debate in terms of this whole issue. In

:31:26. > :31:32.recent weeks we have had several debates. It comes down to two

:31:33. > :31:39.fundamental issues. First, the cause to undo the 2011 pension changes.

:31:40. > :31:48.The cost of undoing that would be over ?30 billion. The second issue

:31:49. > :31:56.is that there calls by some to even further. And to unravel the 1995

:31:57. > :32:03.pension reforms. Yes, there are many people, including people in Waspi,

:32:04. > :32:10.who want to unravel 1995. It's out there on the Internet for people to

:32:11. > :32:13.see. So let's not try to deny the two options being debated out there.

:32:14. > :32:17.I said at the outset I would talk about the substance. I will talk

:32:18. > :32:25.about both options. I will give way in a moment but I wish to continue.

:32:26. > :32:31.If we unravel the 1995 pension reforms, as many people outside want

:32:32. > :32:38.us to do, that would cost ?77 billion up to 2020 and 2021. And

:32:39. > :32:50.costs would continue to accrue after that period. I will give way. He

:32:51. > :32:53.repeats this calumny that the Waspi women are saying, do not equalise

:32:54. > :32:59.pensions and get rid of the 1995 act. That is exactly what the whip's

:33:00. > :33:04.crib sheet says, but he knows that's not true. It's one comment made by

:33:05. > :33:08.one woman among hundreds of thousands on Facebook. It's not what

:33:09. > :33:15.they said to the committee. It's not what they said on their petition,

:33:16. > :33:19.and will he withdraw it? I am simply speaking from personal experience of

:33:20. > :33:24.women I have spoken to. Women have spoken to me and say they want a

:33:25. > :33:28.restoration to 1995. There are colleagues in this house who have

:33:29. > :33:32.had people in their surgeries speaking of 1995. He may not have

:33:33. > :33:45.had it, and he might be out of touch, but the rest of us are not.

:33:46. > :33:49.When we talk of ?77 billion, or even ?30 billion, we are not talking here

:33:50. > :33:57.of a few million pounds, we are not talking of a few billion pounds. In

:33:58. > :34:05.both contexts we are talking of tens of billions of pounds. And that

:34:06. > :34:13.situation is simply not sustainable. When he says that 30 billion power

:34:14. > :34:18.is being taken as a result of the 2011 changes, what he is saying is

:34:19. > :34:22.that there is a transfer from one of the poorest groups in our society,

:34:23. > :34:29.which is women in their 50s, a single group of women who were the

:34:30. > :34:32.largest growth in unemployment in the last Coalition Government, who

:34:33. > :34:40.are more likely to have to work after retirement than men, and let

:34:41. > :34:44.me say, women work after retirement, two thirds of them working on the

:34:45. > :34:47.lowest wage level, unlike men who work after retirement where two

:34:48. > :34:52.thirds of them are working on the highest wage levels. What's he

:34:53. > :34:58.saying on picking the pockets on the poorest women of our society? I will

:34:59. > :35:03.address some of the points the honourable lady refers to, because

:35:04. > :35:15.there is a broader context to this rather than simply the issue of the

:35:16. > :35:17.pension age. If given the opportunity I would like to make

:35:18. > :35:23.some progress. The reality is that people are living longer and living

:35:24. > :35:25.healthier lives and this is to be welcomed but it increases the

:35:26. > :35:30.pressure on the state pension scheme. As government we have

:35:31. > :35:34.responsibility to keep it affordable and sustainable for future

:35:35. > :35:39.generations. The changes that have been made are important to making

:35:40. > :35:45.that happen. They also reflect the way both men and women live their

:35:46. > :35:51.lives now rather than in the 1940s, a point I will come back to later. I

:35:52. > :35:55.want to tackle head on one particular issue. Many honourable

:35:56. > :36:01.members have talked about the need for transitional arrangements.

:36:02. > :36:13.I would point out to honourable members the extensive debates and

:36:14. > :36:15.discussions that took place at that time that the legislation was

:36:16. > :36:22.passing through Parliament. Let me quote Hansard from the time the

:36:23. > :36:32.pensions Bill received its second reading in June 20 11. Volume 5:30,

:36:33. > :36:36.column 52. It was made clear by the Secretary of State that equalisation

:36:37. > :36:43.of the state pension age would take place in 2018, and he said, we have

:36:44. > :36:50.no plans to change equalisation in 2018 or the age of 66 for men and

:36:51. > :36:58.women in 2020. He then went on, we will consider transitional

:36:59. > :37:04.arrangements. Yes, he said, we will consider transitional arrangements.

:37:05. > :37:10.Four months later, after the Secretary of State said those words,

:37:11. > :37:17.and after considering the matter further, a concession was indeed

:37:18. > :37:21.considered by this House and a concession, transitional

:37:22. > :37:28.arrangements, was made at third reading. That transitional

:37:29. > :37:33.arrangement was worth over ?1 billion to reduce the delay that

:37:34. > :37:39.anyone with experience in claiming their pension and a time element was

:37:40. > :37:45.reduced from two years to 18 months, so when people say that transitional

:37:46. > :37:51.arrangements should have been made, I ask them to look back at the

:37:52. > :37:59.record, to consider what was actually said, to consider what was

:38:00. > :38:04.subsequently done for months later, that was transitional arrangements.

:38:05. > :38:10.They passed to the House, there was extensive debate and engagement with

:38:11. > :38:16.relative stakeholders and that was done. I will give way. I thank him

:38:17. > :38:21.for giving way, I think this is the fourth time I have been involved in

:38:22. > :38:27.a debate where he is answering these issues and he is still would fully

:38:28. > :38:32.inadequate at answering this in justice, so will he answer might

:38:33. > :38:38.constituent, who is four months outside this measure and was only

:38:39. > :38:43.notified in 2012 that she would have to wait a further four years, less

:38:44. > :38:48.than a year before her 60th birthday. How is that fair after she

:38:49. > :38:56.has paid into the system all her working life? I will address the

:38:57. > :39:00.issue of little vacation later. He has been extensive in his

:39:01. > :39:07.description of the discussions that took place in this House but the

:39:08. > :39:10.ladies concerned did not know. It is unreasonable of them to read Hansard

:39:11. > :39:17.to understand what their pension age should be. Women tell me about the

:39:18. > :39:20.changes they and their families have experienced because of this. It is

:39:21. > :39:28.not good enough and the minister must listen and act. She is right,

:39:29. > :39:34.the public are uninterested in Hansard, but people in this House

:39:35. > :39:37.should read Hansard rather than asking Werther transitional

:39:38. > :39:44.arrangements, they should acknowledge they were made. Isn't

:39:45. > :39:50.this the fact that people were not aware of the 1995 pensions at, the

:39:51. > :39:55.Labour government spent ?5 million of communication and is this not a

:39:56. > :40:03.failure of that government that they have failed the woman involved? He

:40:04. > :40:08.is right, 13 years of Labour government, ten pensions ministers,

:40:09. > :40:13.nine secretaries of state for Work and Pensions, they failed these

:40:14. > :40:19.women and now refuse to accept responsibility, they refused to

:40:20. > :40:25.acknowledge the arithmetics of the pensions budget and seek to blame

:40:26. > :40:31.this dispatch box without coming forward with any concrete repose.

:40:32. > :40:37.Any sort. They refused to commit themselves, as I said, the look

:40:38. > :40:42.Surrey of opposition is to speak about spending huge sums of money

:40:43. > :40:49.without the responsibility of taking the difficult decisions we have to

:40:50. > :40:53.take. Madam Deputy Speaker, I have given way many times and we are now

:40:54. > :41:00.getting to the stage where I am afraid MPs are repeating issues

:41:01. > :41:05.already raised. I am mindful a lot of people have put in to speak,

:41:06. > :41:11.nobody can accuse me of not being generous, I wish to make progress.

:41:12. > :41:20.Madam Deputy Speaker, the changes that were made, the transitional

:41:21. > :41:25.arrangements in 2011 benefited 250,000 women who would otherwise

:41:26. > :41:30.have had a delay of up to two years and over 80% of those affected, the

:41:31. > :41:35.increase in the time period will be no more than 12 months. The House

:41:36. > :41:40.voted for this amendment, a concession was called for, it was

:41:41. > :41:46.considered by the Government, it was put forward by the Government and it

:41:47. > :41:53.was accepted and voted for by this House. The Government promised to

:41:54. > :41:56.consider transitional arrangements in 2011 when the legislation was

:41:57. > :42:03.going through and that is what the Government delivered. The reduction

:42:04. > :42:10.in the time period from two years to 18 months at a cost of ?1.1 billion.

:42:11. > :42:18.That shows the Government was listening to the concerns of members

:42:19. > :42:27.and responded at the time. Exactly how much of that money went to the

:42:28. > :42:33.woman concerned? Madam Deputy Speaker, the honourable lady needs

:42:34. > :42:40.to appreciate that the concept of dealing with pensions and many is

:42:41. > :42:49.that a concession was made, that concession was made by the taxpayer,

:42:50. > :42:56.and the total cost was ?1.1 billion. As I said, and I am sorry she hasn't

:42:57. > :43:03.got that message yet and I am sorry she doesn't appreciate there was a

:43:04. > :43:07.time shortage of six months. Order. There is a lot are shouting out. If

:43:08. > :43:11.the minister wants to take an intervention he will but if we can

:43:12. > :43:22.stop shouting that would help us proceed with the debate. The issue

:43:23. > :43:27.of the difficulty is -- of little vacation, another reason some have

:43:28. > :43:32.called for is for the legislation to be revisited because it needs to be

:43:33. > :43:37.looked at again but I do not accept the Government has failed to make

:43:38. > :43:43.every effort to notify the women affected. I wish to make progress.

:43:44. > :43:48.Following the 2011 act we wrote to all those directly affected to

:43:49. > :43:54.inform them of the change to their state pension age. 5 million letters

:43:55. > :43:59.were sent by DWP and the sending of the letters to those affected was

:44:00. > :44:06.between January 2012 and November 20 13. Letters to those whose state

:44:07. > :44:13.pension age was set either 1995 back only were sent between April 2009,

:44:14. > :44:20.when Labour were still in government, and finished in March 20

:44:21. > :44:27.11. As a result of those efforts, in 2012 a survey I DWP found that only

:44:28. > :44:31.6% of women who work with in ten years of receiving their pension

:44:32. > :44:38.thought their state pension age was still six-day. The Shadow Work and

:44:39. > :44:43.Pensions Secretary mentioned several surveys have been done and was

:44:44. > :44:49.somewhat selective in the ones he referred to. The one by DWP, who

:44:50. > :44:56.were running and in charge of the pension scheme, has, I would say, a

:44:57. > :45:01.fair amount of validity, and only six amount of women who were within

:45:02. > :45:09.six years of receiving their pension thought it was still six-day. For

:45:10. > :45:14.the original 1995 changes, in 2004, nearly three quarters of those

:45:15. > :45:18.between 45 and 54 were aware of changes to the state pension. Our

:45:19. > :45:22.campaign has focused on raising awareness of the changes and

:45:23. > :45:29.encouraging those closest to the pension age to get a personalised

:45:30. > :45:33.state pension statement. Them grateful to him for giving way and

:45:34. > :45:41.despite the chuntering from the front bench I can assure him and

:45:42. > :45:46.everyone else that this is my question, we heard earlier from the

:45:47. > :45:50.shadow pensions Secretary that he believed the communication on this

:45:51. > :45:56.had been appalling. He overlooked that his own government had

:45:57. > :46:00.estimated that 70% of women had been informed. He overdubbed that the

:46:01. > :46:07.evidence to the select committee, 600 mentions of the 1995 changes

:46:08. > :46:11.were in the media at that time, anti-overlooked that in terms of the

:46:12. > :46:17.briefing on the state pension at, there were 17 million forecasts

:46:18. > :46:23.issued IE the Labour government between 2004 and 2006. Would he

:46:24. > :46:30.agree with me that although some women were not informed there were

:46:31. > :46:35.also many who were. A grateful to my honourable friend for putting those

:46:36. > :46:39.facts on the record. But I am very sorry that in the interest of

:46:40. > :46:45.substance, which might friend was speaking about, all we got was the

:46:46. > :46:52.Yanbu politics we have come to expect from the other side. When it

:46:53. > :46:56.comes to substance and fax, and anyone watching this debate at home

:46:57. > :47:00.can see for themselves that they do not want to know the substance or

:47:01. > :47:05.the fax. All they are interested in is politics and this is too

:47:06. > :47:10.important an issue to be treated with political naivete that some

:47:11. > :47:15.people on the other side are treating it. This is an important

:47:16. > :47:22.subject and we aren't dealing with it and giving it the seriousness it

:47:23. > :47:28.deserves. I will give way. I thank them for giving way. He is clearly

:47:29. > :47:32.in a difficult corner but I wondered if he could clarify for the hosts

:47:33. > :47:40.whether the Government now accepts that in women or anybody needs at

:47:41. > :47:46.least ten years medication of a pension change to plan and prepare,

:47:47. > :47:49.and if the Government accept that, could he explain why it does not

:47:50. > :47:55.apply to these women -- notification? She will be aware that

:47:56. > :48:01.the Romans have to take difficult his visions. Considering the state

:48:02. > :48:08.of the big, May, the financial position this ever meant came into,

:48:09. > :48:15.and one of her own colleagues said there was no money left, given those

:48:16. > :48:20.were the circumstances, given the longevity of life spans for men and

:48:21. > :48:25.women, the Government had to take difficult decisions as all

:48:26. > :48:30.governments have to do when they are in government. This Government had

:48:31. > :48:38.to take difficult decisions because they were necessary. We cannot

:48:39. > :48:46.look... I will give way. I thank him for giving way. I think the women of

:48:47. > :48:49.this country will be watching this debate and his comments with a

:48:50. > :48:53.mixture of concern and disappointment. He is giving us

:48:54. > :48:59.history lessons and trying to apportion blame. We have immaterial

:49:00. > :49:03.problem now that the Government needs to address, so stop looking

:49:04. > :49:07.backwards and start looking forwards, start caring for the women

:49:08. > :49:13.of this country. This House has already said I am over whelming

:49:14. > :49:16.majority had wanted the Government to look again at the transitional

:49:17. > :49:22.arrangements, so have you looked again at it, has your position

:49:23. > :49:29.unchanged since the last time we debated it and will you tell us what

:49:30. > :49:33.your change in position is? If there weren't many speeches in the middle

:49:34. > :49:39.of my speech, I will answer these questions in due course. We cannot

:49:40. > :49:44.look at the changes to women's state pension age in isolation without

:49:45. > :49:51.acknowledging the changes in life expectancy. Huge progress made in

:49:52. > :49:56.opening employment opportunities for women and a wider package of

:49:57. > :50:00.reforms, first, life expectancy. The reason for these reforms is that

:50:01. > :50:08.people are not just living longer but staying healthy for longer. In

:50:09. > :50:11.just a decade, the length of time 65-year-olds will live in good

:50:12. > :50:18.health has surged by over a year. This is welcome news that the

:50:19. > :50:24.reality is that this puts increasing pressure on the state pension

:50:25. > :50:28.scheme. Any government has a duty to ensure the sustainability of the

:50:29. > :50:32.state pension system and it would have been responsible for this

:50:33. > :50:38.Government or the Coalition Government at the time to ignore

:50:39. > :50:44.those developments. I will give way. Does he agree every government has

:50:45. > :50:48.the responsibility to be fair to the people of this country, and women

:50:49. > :50:54.are not only affected either goalposts moving but also those

:50:55. > :50:58.benefits they would get at retirement age have gone as well, so

:50:59. > :51:03.this is a double whammy on this group of women who have worked hard

:51:04. > :51:09.all their lives. The Government has a duty to all its citizens and it

:51:10. > :51:14.has to take difficult decisions and play a balancing act, and it is

:51:15. > :51:20.important to bear that in mind when people talk about spending ?30

:51:21. > :51:24.billion were ?77 billion. That is serious money and difficult

:51:25. > :51:30.decisions have to be taken to make sure there is a balancing act. The

:51:31. > :51:36.landscape for women and employment has completely changed since the

:51:37. > :51:42.1940s. Female employment is now at record levels with over 14 million

:51:43. > :51:51.women in work, a record rate of nearly 70%. The number of older

:51:52. > :51:58.women aged 60 to 64 in work is also at a high record, and that is at a

:51:59. > :52:03.record high. There are more older women in work than this time last

:52:04. > :52:09.year. In the past decade women have on average stop working later than

:52:10. > :52:15.60. In 2016, the average was 63, and we know more women then work would

:52:16. > :52:21.prefer to work flexibly or part time before retiring. My honourable

:52:22. > :52:26.friend for Newcastle North just said to the minister that it would be at

:52:27. > :52:31.least ten years for these little vocations to be brought in. It

:52:32. > :52:38.seemed out confirming that women are now paying for the planned deficit

:52:39. > :52:43.reduction? Can I ask what he says to my and is a joint who is now

:52:44. > :52:47.disabled, cannot make up the six years she has lost in the scheme,

:52:48. > :52:55.what transitional help can he give to her? The honourable gentleman

:52:56. > :53:01.repeated the question asked before and I refer him to my previous

:53:02. > :53:08.answer. I will turn to other issues later given the opportunity to make

:53:09. > :53:12.progress. We need a pension system that acknowledges the changes made

:53:13. > :53:16.in the same way that we responded to supporting older workers in the

:53:17. > :53:20.Labour market. We have abolished the default retirement age and extended

:53:21. > :53:26.the right to request flexible working to all employees, and we're

:53:27. > :53:30.working with businesses to encourage the employment and retention of

:53:31. > :53:36.workers. Third, to our wider reforms. I will give way. On the

:53:37. > :53:43.issue of transitional funding, isn't it about time the Government started

:53:44. > :53:49.tackling rich corporate tax dodgers and stop dodging poor women

:53:50. > :53:54.pensioners? AM sure he was delighted he was able to score his cheap

:53:55. > :54:00.political point. Thirdly, to our wider reforms. We inherited one of

:54:01. > :54:06.the most complex state pension systems in the world. Too many

:54:07. > :54:11.people did not understand what they could expect upon retiring, so from

:54:12. > :54:15.April this year we are introducing a simpler state pension that will give

:54:16. > :54:20.people a clear picture of what the state will provide so they can build

:54:21. > :54:24.their own savings. We have the triple lock, so pensioners will see

:54:25. > :54:31.their basic state pension go up by at least 2.5% every year, as it has

:54:32. > :54:38.since 2011. That means from this April, pensioners will receive a B6

:54:39. > :54:42.state pension over ?1100 a year higher than at the last Parliament.

:54:43. > :54:48.It is important for people to acknowledge matters in a broader

:54:49. > :54:51.context rather than simply a single issue context in which many

:54:52. > :55:01.colleagues here seem to treat the problem. I am grateful indeed for

:55:02. > :55:05.allowing me to intervene. In response to early intervention by a

:55:06. > :55:11.lady who has now left the chamber, the minister replied that ministers

:55:12. > :55:20.were always happy to meet with party colleagues to discuss difficult

:55:21. > :55:25.cases. Unlike the pensions minister, who has refused to come to Northern

:55:26. > :55:29.Ireland and made women board in the 1950s who were adversely affected by

:55:30. > :55:34.this, would he have the grace to come to Northern Ireland, meet Mike

:55:35. > :55:38.constituents and other woman affected through Northern Ireland

:55:39. > :55:44.and explain why this Government would not introduce transitional

:55:45. > :55:49.measures? Before the minister gets back on his feet, we have 25

:55:50. > :55:56.speakers wanting to catch my eye, we hope to have the division at 4:50pm,

:55:57. > :56:01.we still have another front bench speech to come, interventions are

:56:02. > :56:07.long and if the minister could start concluding his remarks, we might be

:56:08. > :56:13.able to get everyone in, but just a reminder we are tight on time. I'd

:56:14. > :56:17.take on board what you say and I am coming to a conclusion. I would be

:56:18. > :56:22.happy to meet with colleagues, though the venue would have to be

:56:23. > :56:27.negotiated. It is not every day I go to Northern Ireland but if she wants

:56:28. > :56:34.to meet me, I am happy to have one in London. We have ensured more

:56:35. > :56:40.people are saving for their retirement by requiring employers to

:56:41. > :56:46.in role their staff into a pension with an auto enrolment scheme. In

:56:47. > :56:52.addition to these reforms, we have continued to cold on a range of

:56:53. > :56:57.other pension benefits, including a permanent increase to cold weather

:56:58. > :57:05.payments, protection of winter fuel payments and free bus passes. I will

:57:06. > :57:08.not give way. We are providing greater security and choice for

:57:09. > :57:15.people in retirement while also ensuring the system is sustainable

:57:16. > :57:21.for the future. That is a record on pensions and pensioners on which

:57:22. > :57:25.this side of the House can be proud. Parliament has debated the issue of

:57:26. > :57:32.accelerating changes to the state pension. We listen to all arguments

:57:33. > :57:38.for and against at the time of the 2011 pensions act. When we did make

:57:39. > :57:43.transitional arrangements. We are far behind other countries in Europe

:57:44. > :57:48.on the issue of equalisation. Germany, Denmark, the Czech Republic

:57:49. > :57:55.and Greece have already equalised the pension age for men and women.

:57:56. > :57:59.We have to look to the future, not persistent in looking backwards.

:58:00. > :58:05.These changes are about putting our pension system on a secure financial

:58:06. > :58:10.footing rather than continuous confusion for those affected and

:58:11. > :58:16.further debate. We should build on the high levels of awareness we

:58:17. > :58:21.already have and continue to promote flexibility, choice and security for

:58:22. > :58:24.older people. Madam Deputy Speaker, there are no plans on the part of

:58:25. > :58:30.the Government to make policy changes. Before I call the SNP

:58:31. > :58:36.spokesperson, I just want to say I will start with the time limit of

:58:37. > :58:39.four minutes on back and speeches but if we have too many

:58:40. > :58:47.interventions I will have to bring that down. Thank you, Madam Deputy

:58:48. > :58:55.Speaker. I listen to the minister for 35 million and not think of a

:58:56. > :58:59.time I have been so utterly impressed, 35 minutes to say

:59:00. > :59:06.absolutely nothing and to give no hope whatsoever to the woman faced

:59:07. > :59:11.with pension inequality. Talk about a that is out of touch and the game

:59:12. > :59:16.was given away by one of his friends sitting on the backbenches, the lady

:59:17. > :59:22.for Mid Bedfordshire, who said to the Government cheap is one of these

:59:23. > :59:26.ladies caught up in this. The Government know who she is, where

:59:27. > :59:32.she lives, but she hasn't heard anything. Has the minister got

:59:33. > :59:38.anything to say to her? Nothing, just sheer contempt from this

:59:39. > :59:43.Government for the Waspi women and the Waspi campaign. He and the

:59:44. > :59:50.Government should be ashamed of themselves. A Conservative MP said

:59:51. > :59:56.to me last night, where we having another debate on this issue? I say

:59:57. > :00:00.to the House, I have some sympathy with this view. We should not be

:00:01. > :00:04.having this debate but for one simple and straightforward recent

:00:05. > :00:10.that government should have acted by now to end this injustice. Let's

:00:11. > :00:17.remind ourselves of the fundamentals. The SNP, I am sure

:00:18. > :00:22.along with everyone else, I agree with pension equalisation but we do

:00:23. > :00:29.not support the unfair manner in which the changes were made. The

:00:30. > :00:35.Government must explore up options for transitional arrangements to

:00:36. > :00:39.protect retirement plans for females affected, and to hear that key

:00:40. > :00:47.billion tossed out by the minister, he did not say that is the years up

:00:48. > :00:54.to 2026. Let me give him one suggestion. One of the things we are

:00:55. > :01:00.consulting on his pension tax relief, which cost 35 million. Why

:01:01. > :01:11.don't we agree on that and give some hope to the problems pensioners are

:01:12. > :01:16.facing? Parliament voted unanimously on the 7th of January on a motion

:01:17. > :01:23.the Government should put mitigation into place to protect those women

:01:24. > :01:26.affected by this. The Prime Minister speaks about the sovereignty of this

:01:27. > :01:33.House, why have this Government ignored that vote, why have they

:01:34. > :01:36.ignored the will of the House, you cannot ignore the will of the House

:01:37. > :01:42.at random with that legitimate demands of the Waspy people, you are

:01:43. > :01:54.taking this House and the people of this country with contempt. Where is

:01:55. > :01:59.parliamentary democracy? Does he share my concern that the minister

:02:00. > :02:02.has basically confirmed from the dispatch box that this

:02:03. > :02:10.discrimination is a price worth paying for deficit reduction? She

:02:11. > :02:14.makes a very good point. The woman in the Waspi campaign are paying for

:02:15. > :02:20.the failures of the economic Lossie of this Government. Let me remind

:02:21. > :02:27.the House we have a Conservative government... The honourable

:02:28. > :02:32.gentleman did not give way earlier because I needed to correct him on a

:02:33. > :02:38.point of fact. The evidence given... That is not a point of burger. He

:02:39. > :02:44.can't give way if he wants to but he does not have to. I will give way

:02:45. > :02:48.because I will treat this House with the respect that was not shown to

:02:49. > :02:54.the Waspi women by this Government, but she is correct, I will answer

:02:55. > :03:00.the point and give way, because austerity is a political choice. We

:03:01. > :03:07.argued at the election campaign that if the Government increase spending

:03:08. > :03:11.by 0.5% per annum for each year in Parliament, he would increase

:03:12. > :03:16.spending in this country by 140 billion but still reduced the

:03:17. > :03:21.deficit to 2% of national income by the end of Parliament. It would mean

:03:22. > :03:25.the German or not punishing the woman at back then by this. Show

:03:26. > :03:32.some leadership, take some action and addressed this properly. He said

:03:33. > :03:38.earlier that the cost would be some 29 billion by 2026. He is wrong. The

:03:39. > :03:45.evidence to the select committee is that the bill and total cost 77

:03:46. > :03:53.billion, in Westminster Hall he said his party would commit to changing

:03:54. > :03:56.that they were ever in the unlikely position of having responsibility

:03:57. > :04:02.for these things. Would he confirm his party leader will say that if

:04:03. > :04:10.ever the SNP had responsibility for this, they would commit ?77 billion.

:04:11. > :04:14.Good grief! Have you ever heard such nonsense as I have just heard from

:04:15. > :04:20.the honourable member? I never committed the SNP for anything. I

:04:21. > :04:26.did make suggestions what the Government may do and to toss around

:04:27. > :04:33.the 77 million, which referred to the 95 at, I have never done. House

:04:34. > :04:40.of Commons library figures show the cost of austerity to 2011, so let's

:04:41. > :04:43.get the facts right rather than the nonsense from benches opposite. We

:04:44. > :04:50.will tell the truth, you can spin the nonsense. The Government keep

:04:51. > :04:56.telling us this matter was decided in 2011 and we should meekly

:04:57. > :05:01.accepted. What arrogance. I and every member elected in May 2013

:05:02. > :05:05.were elected to this place to represent the views of our

:05:06. > :05:09.constituents in this Parliament. If we want to change the 2011 at we can

:05:10. > :05:14.do with the minister should stop hiding behind that. We cannot be

:05:15. > :05:20.bound by the mistakes of parliaments of the past. We're here to speak up

:05:21. > :05:26.for our constituents, to hold the Government to account and to make

:05:27. > :05:31.sure it right this wrong. My heavens, the ways of this place is

:05:32. > :05:35.archaic. It is little wonder that people of Scotland see Westminster

:05:36. > :05:41.as a relevant. Although the Government and the minister have yet

:05:42. > :05:47.to debate, the pensions minister in the last government omitted recently

:05:48. > :05:53.the Government made a bad decision on state pension age rises. It is

:05:54. > :05:58.time, Madam Speaker, not just for Steve Webb for the Government to

:05:59. > :06:04.repent. When the minister responsible for powering the bill to

:06:05. > :06:07.parliament can see the air of his ways, surely the Treasury can see

:06:08. > :06:12.that it has to act in the best interests of the woman attacked.

:06:13. > :06:15.When I think of the intransigence of the Treasury is not taking

:06:16. > :06:20.responsibility to do the right thing, the am reminded of a line

:06:21. > :06:25.that could be used in the school report card, we thought George had

:06:26. > :06:32.reached rock bottom but he has kept eating. This is one hole the

:06:33. > :06:37.Government has to dig itself out of. MIDI Conservatives hope this issue

:06:38. > :06:41.under Waspi women will go away but that will not happen, we will keep

:06:42. > :06:49.fighting for them because it is the right thing to do. The Chancellor

:06:50. > :06:55.has refused to act, in his bunker. When you start to pay National

:06:56. > :07:01.Insurance you enter a contract with the state. The Government has an

:07:02. > :07:05.obligation to make that commitment. There has to be fairness and that is

:07:06. > :07:11.lacking in this case. In acting for this Government to put in mitigation

:07:12. > :07:19.to acknowledge the impact of the pension age increase is too steep.

:07:20. > :07:23.It is a pity in the week that the welcome in fiscal framework that

:07:24. > :07:27.would allow changes in the Scotland Bill, we are not seeing changes

:07:28. > :07:31.coming to Scotland, but if we had powers for pensions in Scotland, we

:07:32. > :07:37.would do the right then for our pensioners. Critique tell the House,

:07:38. > :07:52.is We're asking the government to make

:07:53. > :07:57.it clear what it will do and offer mitigation for pensioners this

:07:58. > :08:03.country. An example, a review of pension tax relief when you can find

:08:04. > :08:08.the money for ?176 billion of weapons of mass destruction. You can

:08:09. > :08:13.find the money to do the right thing for pensioners in this country. I'm

:08:14. > :08:17.extremely grateful to the honourable gentleman and recognise the passion

:08:18. > :08:26.he brings to this debate. But I'm very concerned that the Waspi

:08:27. > :08:31.campaigners will be misled in not being able to understand clearly

:08:32. > :08:36.what the SNP are going to commit to to bring forward the amelioration is

:08:37. > :08:40.so necessary. It's incumbent upon him, if he and his party want to be

:08:41. > :08:47.taken seriously, that he has a clear and costed proposal to bring to the

:08:48. > :08:50.house today. This is remarkable. The difference between our government in

:08:51. > :08:54.Scotland and the Tory government in Scotland, is that we have a ferment

:08:55. > :09:01.that is responsible and popular. There's a very easy answer to this.

:09:02. > :09:06.Give us our independence and we will do the right thing for our people.

:09:07. > :09:17.Undo the damage done by this Conservative government. Money is

:09:18. > :09:24.important but there is another issue here, and that's fairness. Maybe you

:09:25. > :09:29.don't know, but a third of the women between the age of 55 and 59, do not

:09:30. > :09:34.work. They don't work because they are in ill health, or they are

:09:35. > :09:45.disabled. The other half are carers looking after people. Point of

:09:46. > :09:49.order. Graham Evans. Will you remind the house of the rules of the house

:09:50. > :09:54.about making contributions that were not at the beginning of the debate.

:09:55. > :09:59.The honourable gentleman has been in and out of the chamber and was here

:10:00. > :10:02.at the beginning of the debate. Can I use this opportunity to calm

:10:03. > :10:08.things down a little bit so we can move on. We have a large number of

:10:09. > :10:14.members wanting to speak. If members want to make interventions, please

:10:15. > :10:18.keep them short, and I can remained members that they are talking

:10:19. > :10:24.through the chair. Not addressing honourable members. I agree with my

:10:25. > :10:32.honourable friend, who makes a good point, it's about unfairness, women

:10:33. > :10:41.who asked rigging, women in ill health, women who are struggling.

:10:42. > :10:47.Let me talk about the real case of women born in the early 1950s. It

:10:48. > :10:51.needs repetition, a woman born on the date of the 10th of February.

:10:52. > :10:57.Let's look at the different experiences through the years for

:10:58. > :11:02.the 1950s. Somebody born on February ten, 1950 would have retired age 60

:11:03. > :11:07.in 2010. A woman born a year later would have had to wait almost two

:11:08. > :11:13.years longer to have retired on the 6th of January 20 12. A woman born

:11:14. > :11:20.on the 10th of February 1952, would have reached state pension age on

:11:21. > :11:26.the 6th of January 20 14th aged 64 years, ten months. Such a woman has

:11:27. > :11:32.waited an additional two years over a woman born in 1950. If that wasn't

:11:33. > :11:39.bad enough, the increase for women born in 1953 and 54 gets even worse.

:11:40. > :11:44.Somebody born in 1953 would have retired in January this year aged

:11:45. > :11:52.nearly 63. A woman born in 1954 will not reach pensionable age until the

:11:53. > :11:59.6th of July 2019, when she will be 65 years, four months and 26 days. A

:12:00. > :12:03.woman born in 1954 is having to wait two and a half years longer for

:12:04. > :12:10.their pension than somebody born a year earlier. Just dwell on this.

:12:11. > :12:14.Would my honourable friend agree that in playing out to the public,

:12:15. > :12:19.many of the women in the Waspi campaign watching today, no doubt in

:12:20. > :12:24.disappointment, will be more disappointed to see that the Tory

:12:25. > :12:27.benches are populated almost exclusively by men, explaining why

:12:28. > :12:36.women in cannot access their pensions. They are watching these

:12:37. > :12:43.detached, remote, middle-aged men explain why they can't access their

:12:44. > :12:48.pensions. I thank my honourable friend for the point, but all of us,

:12:49. > :12:51.men and women, should reflect on the unfairness, because it's an issue we

:12:52. > :12:55.should see simply as wrong, whether male or female, we should deal with

:12:56. > :13:01.it. Let's dwell on this point, somebody born in 1953 has now

:13:02. > :13:08.retired. Somebody born in 1954 is having to wait until 2019. Where is

:13:09. > :13:13.the fairness in that? Let me ask members opposite, who will defend

:13:14. > :13:19.this? A minister, a backbencher, who will rise and defend what the

:13:20. > :13:22.government is doing? Do you seriously believe that my

:13:23. > :13:27.constituents in Blackpool North and Cleveleys, who want me to be here,

:13:28. > :13:32.think I should leave the chair because I'm a man and not

:13:33. > :13:36.participate in this debate? I'm sorry that's the approach the

:13:37. > :13:44.honourable gentleman has taken. I was looking for somebody to defend.

:13:45. > :13:47.You have failed. Everybody in this chamber has the right to defend the

:13:48. > :13:52.interests of their constituents. I want to make some progress. We have

:13:53. > :13:57.to see if the house divides on this issue. Perhaps Tory backbenchers

:13:58. > :14:02.will meekly trot through and again do nothing but support the

:14:03. > :14:07.government and do something which in our view is completely untenable.

:14:08. > :14:10.Now is your chance, will you defend this government? This is a debate

:14:11. > :14:16.and I will happily give way to somebody on the Tory side who will

:14:17. > :14:21.stand up for the Waspi campaign and the women in this country who are

:14:22. > :14:26.prepared to say... I just want to point out that we would like to

:14:27. > :14:32.speak when the open speeches are open. To defend what the government

:14:33. > :14:36.are doing is to defend the indefensible. It is wrong,

:14:37. > :14:40.mean-spirited. Don't just trip through the lobby without reflecting

:14:41. > :14:44.on women, in some cases women who are losing tens of thousands of

:14:45. > :14:50.pounds of entitlement. I have talked about women born up until 1954. A

:14:51. > :14:57.woman born in 1955 will not retire until the 10th of February 2021,

:14:58. > :15:01.aged 66. This can't be right and is far too steep and increase over two

:15:02. > :15:06.short a period. The government must put in place mitigation. I say to

:15:07. > :15:09.the government members, examine your consciences. You will have women

:15:10. > :15:15.coming to see you from the Waspi campaign. Order, the honourable

:15:16. > :15:19.gentleman is speaking through the chair, speaking to me, and I am not

:15:20. > :15:24.participating in this debate. Please address in the third person. I most

:15:25. > :15:30.sincerely apologise, Madam Deputy Speaker for my oversight and I will

:15:31. > :15:35.insure it will not happen again. Conservative members will have women

:15:36. > :15:39.from the Waspi campaign coming to their surgeries. Let's see what some

:15:40. > :15:44.women have said about their real wife experiences will stop what they

:15:45. > :15:47.will say to you. First, my husband and I got married in 1972 and he's

:15:48. > :15:52.12 years older than me. I think we plan to life in the right way. The

:15:53. > :15:56.pension law as put our plans out of the window. I have planned available

:15:57. > :16:07.options when my husband retires, and in 2011 Irish requested my state

:16:08. > :16:10.pension forecast. I thought the lump sum might allow me the option to

:16:11. > :16:16.work two days and still enjoy my family thanks to the changes I will

:16:17. > :16:20.no longer receive this. Also, I hadn't anticipated that at my age I

:16:21. > :16:25.might be a prime candidate for redundancy. Losing my job in 2014

:16:26. > :16:30.was a massive blow. The government might have changed the law, but it

:16:31. > :16:35.turns out many industries don't want women over 60. They are effectively

:16:36. > :16:39.retiring us and forcing us to use lifetime savings on baby living

:16:40. > :16:43.costs as nobody wants to hire us. There are so many points to dwell on

:16:44. > :16:48.here, but importantly, it's about the crushing of so many hopes and

:16:49. > :16:51.dreams. It's also the case that so many women have been forced to work

:16:52. > :16:56.beyond their expected retirement date and this brings its own

:16:57. > :16:59.challenges in terms of availability, suitability of employment, and many

:17:00. > :17:04.are sadly experiencing ill-health. What has been the response of the

:17:05. > :17:09.government? Other benefits are available? You have worked hard,

:17:10. > :17:13.paid your dues to society, met your side of the bargain by paying

:17:14. > :17:17.national insurance and expect to receive a pension, but this callous

:17:18. > :17:22.and heartless government rips up the contract and tells people to claim

:17:23. > :17:27.benefits. Is that the answer must means tested benefits will cost the

:17:28. > :17:32.Exchequer, and you are denied what is rightly yours. Welcome to George

:17:33. > :17:41.Osborne's Britain, callous, cold and undignified. Is this the crux of the

:17:42. > :17:45.issue, that here we have a clear breach of contract? If this was a

:17:46. > :17:49.private pension company that unilaterally changed the pension

:17:50. > :17:52.conditions of 2.6 million women in this country, this house quite

:17:53. > :17:57.rightly would be up in arms. They don't want the contract enforced,

:17:58. > :18:00.they want it mitigated fairly, and surely the government should listen

:18:01. > :18:06.to the 2.6 million women in this country and act now. My honourable

:18:07. > :18:10.friend makes a good point. We had a debate in this house about the FCA

:18:11. > :18:14.and consumer protection, and here are consumers being ripped off by

:18:15. > :18:17.their own government, their entitlement to a state pension. We

:18:18. > :18:20.should have Conservative members of Parliament up in arms over this,

:18:21. > :18:27.defending the rights of their constituents. One other example, my

:18:28. > :18:31.husband will be 78 by the time I retire. I had been looking forward

:18:32. > :18:39.to slowing down at 60 and putting family, husband and children at the

:18:40. > :18:43.centre of my life. In Cameron's speech on why families matter in

:18:44. > :18:46.2014, he stated he wanted to do everything possible to help support

:18:47. > :18:52.and strengthen family life in Britain. Having been available for

:18:53. > :18:59.my grandchildren, daughter and husband, we would not have to pay

:19:00. > :19:05.?1700 per month for the children going into nursery. The changes to

:19:06. > :19:09.the state pension have not supported or strengthened our family. The

:19:10. > :19:13.changes have left us in a state of disarray, all thanks to this

:19:14. > :19:21.Conservative government. Madam Deputy Speaker, that is the reality.

:19:22. > :19:27.As I sum up... CHEERING I could quite happily go on if you

:19:28. > :19:31.want! What are Conservative MPs going to say to some women who are

:19:32. > :19:37.going to have to wait six years longer than anticipated for their

:19:38. > :19:39.pension? Madam Deputy Speaker, it's a breach of trust between the

:19:40. > :19:43.government and the women who have earned the right to their pension.

:19:44. > :19:47.We should return the advice from the report that shook measures should be

:19:48. > :19:53.brought in over a 15 year period to mitigate the impact of those

:19:54. > :19:57.measures. It can be argued that the start of the 15 year process should

:19:58. > :20:02.be the beginning of the changes in 2010. That would mean we are

:20:03. > :20:06.effectively at a retirement age of 63 for winning in April this year,

:20:07. > :20:12.and the government could look to smooth the increase of pensionable

:20:13. > :20:15.age for women until 2025. The government should do the right thing

:20:16. > :20:18.to introduce mitigation immediately. Now is the time to act, and if not

:20:19. > :20:20.we will come back to this place and fight for the women who deserve our

:20:21. > :20:37.protection. I rise to speak in this debate in

:20:38. > :20:41.huge disappointment. I imagine many of the Waspi women, it's not been a

:20:42. > :20:45.good debate so far, and I imagine many of the Waspi women watching

:20:46. > :20:50.might have switched off long ago. The party political point scoring on

:20:51. > :20:53.all sides and in all parties has been quite embarrassing. There are

:20:54. > :21:00.real women affected by this who have real issues. Yes, it is the fact

:21:01. > :21:04.that in 1995, following the first legislative change, that the party

:21:05. > :21:11.opposite did have 13 years in which it did not act. It did not inform

:21:12. > :21:17.women. It is also a fact that my own government has failed as well in

:21:18. > :21:25.communication. And the party opposite wasn't even here. That is

:21:26. > :21:31.the SNP. Yes, there have been failures on both sides of the house.

:21:32. > :21:33.I stand as a Waspi woman and I have received no communication

:21:34. > :21:38.whatsoever. It's not true to say that women have been informed. It is

:21:39. > :21:46.also not true to say that there has been a wide campaign of

:21:47. > :21:49.advertisements and information. That campaign of advertisements and

:21:50. > :21:52.information was about general pension changes, it did not

:21:53. > :21:57.specifically target this group of women who have been so badly

:21:58. > :22:01.affected. What I would like to spend a few minutes I have left after all

:22:02. > :22:04.the party political point scoring that has gone on, I would like to

:22:05. > :22:10.talk about the issues that are really affecting those women. It's a

:22:11. > :22:14.fact, and I will say some words in this house that will probably make

:22:15. > :22:18.the men cringe. A lot of people think I shouldn't talk about it in

:22:19. > :22:21.this house, but a lot of these women, women when they reach a

:22:22. > :22:25.certain age have health issues that men do not have to deal with, but

:22:26. > :22:30.none of that is taken into consideration. If I was here when

:22:31. > :22:36.the equalisation of pension age was about to come about, I would not

:22:37. > :22:41.support it, because women have to deal with issues later in life that

:22:42. > :22:47.men simply do not. Women are carers. Women in their 50s and 60s are more

:22:48. > :22:56.likely to be carers than women at any other age. It's a fact. 47.7 of

:22:57. > :23:03.breast cancer diagnoses is of women in their 50s and 60s. These are real

:23:04. > :23:07.issues that those women out there, affected by this legislation are

:23:08. > :23:11.facing. What do we say to a woman who has had breast cancer and ten

:23:12. > :23:14.courses of chemotherapy and radiotherapy, who is now being told

:23:15. > :23:19.that she can't retire when she thought she was going to, and has to

:23:20. > :23:24.go back to work, when she is half the weight she was at any other time

:23:25. > :23:28.in her life, and is sick and facing worst diagnoses in the future? What

:23:29. > :23:31.do we say to those women who have been affected and lost their

:23:32. > :23:36.injuries and have been blitzed with one issue after another because of

:23:37. > :23:39.their illness. I have those women in my constituency. A woman in my

:23:40. > :23:43.constituency was told she should have been sent a letter, and that

:23:44. > :23:50.she had been sent a letter and was telling lies, by the BW P. She lives

:23:51. > :23:54.now in the house she was born in. These women are facing dreadful

:23:55. > :23:58.problems. I was on the telephone to the DWP finding out how she would be

:23:59. > :24:01.affected. These are the complaints women have. It's not about who

:24:02. > :24:06.should have done what and when, it's not about which party to blame, it's

:24:07. > :24:12.not about who's at fault, it's about the problem these women are facing.

:24:13. > :24:18.It's about what they want and if the minister had the grace to listen to

:24:19. > :24:22.my speech, rather than talking like they did on the front bench, what I

:24:23. > :24:25.would like to do on behalf of those women is stand at the dispatch box

:24:26. > :24:32.today and make a commitment that at the very least... Order, we move

:24:33. > :24:37.onto the next speaker. Women who work for fair transitional pension

:24:38. > :24:42.arrangements have been accused by some of being in motion. There is

:24:43. > :24:48.one emotion that unites most of them, and that is anger. -- of being

:24:49. > :24:50.emotional. Banggaard the incompetence and stubbornness that

:24:51. > :24:57.has failed to address these issues over many years. -- anger at the

:24:58. > :25:03.incompetence. They faced either wrong information or no information

:25:04. > :25:07.at all from government and the arrangements have now been

:25:08. > :25:11.overturned. And who are the women most affected? Many of them are

:25:12. > :25:16.carers. One lady who wrote to me is caring for her mother, who is in her

:25:17. > :25:22.90s. Others are women who have had to retire early through ill health.

:25:23. > :25:27.Yet more women who have been made redundant in their late 50s and

:25:28. > :25:31.early 60s. There were a lot of those under the Coalition Government. All

:25:32. > :25:37.of them thought that they could just about manage until their state

:25:38. > :25:40.pension kicked in. Only to find that the goalposts had been moved by

:25:41. > :25:48.government and they were totally unaware of that fact. These are also

:25:49. > :25:53.women who had been disadvantaged throughout their working lives. They

:25:54. > :25:57.are women who started work, often before the equal pay act, certainly

:25:58. > :26:02.before the cases of equal pay for equal value. There were women who

:26:03. > :26:06.brought up children when there was little child care and often had to

:26:07. > :26:11.take low paid and part-time jobs to fit in with their children's school

:26:12. > :26:15.hours. If they are women who gave up work to look after their children,

:26:16. > :26:21.they were at that time given no pension credits for their caring

:26:22. > :26:24.responsibilities, and when they went back to work they found not enough

:26:25. > :26:31.time to build up a decent private pension. They are often women too,

:26:32. > :26:36.who have now found themselves redundant, but are kept in the

:26:37. > :26:39.workforce and being put through the work programme as if they were

:26:40. > :26:44.work-shy layabouts, when I have worked all their lives. Frankly,

:26:45. > :26:50.ministers ought to hang their heads in shame for the way they have

:26:51. > :26:54.treated these women. It is not enough, apparently, for this

:26:55. > :26:57.government to damage women's prospects in every budget they have

:26:58. > :27:02.introduced and make them they're the biggest burden of cuts, they also

:27:03. > :27:06.have to damage their retirement prospects as well. And yet this is a

:27:07. > :27:14.government that tells us it's on the side of strivers. Not if those

:27:15. > :27:19.strivers are women, it isn't. It has put many women, two and a half

:27:20. > :27:23.million in this country, in an impossible position. And so

:27:24. > :27:28.contemptuous of those women is it, that the Secretary of State doesn't

:27:29. > :27:32.even come here to answer debates. No doubt he's out fabricating some new

:27:33. > :27:36.fantasy about how our security is threatened by countries like Belgium

:27:37. > :27:41.and Luxembourg, those well-known bellicose nations. But the real

:27:42. > :27:49.culprit we have never seen at all, is the Chancellor. Whenever there is

:27:50. > :27:54.trouble, he's never here. He decided who women should bear an unfair

:27:55. > :28:00.burden of the cuts. He has made sure that they are paying the price for

:28:01. > :28:04.this government's policies. And in future, ministers should now listen,

:28:05. > :28:08.should come to the dispatch box with more than the platitudes we heard

:28:09. > :28:14.before from the minister. I haven't time to give way. And they should

:28:15. > :28:18.make sure they are bringing transitional arrangements for these

:28:19. > :28:23.women who have been the backbone of this country for many years. Many of

:28:24. > :28:27.whom are saving us millions by caring for others, and have been

:28:28. > :28:34.treated grossly unfairly and with contempt by this government. If we

:28:35. > :28:38.try not to intervene, because they want to speak, it will give us an

:28:39. > :28:44.impossible position. If people can shave a little bit off we will try

:28:45. > :28:48.to ensure everybody gets in. I'm embarrassed to be a member of this

:28:49. > :28:52.chamber today. This debate has shamed us all and I am deeply

:28:53. > :28:57.disappointed by what I have heard said today. I want to come here

:28:58. > :29:04.today to talk on behalf of the constituents I have met, who are

:29:05. > :29:09.affected by this issue, about their financial security, and why it

:29:10. > :29:14.matters to them. Why they want to be resilient and protected from

:29:15. > :29:18.unexpected shocks. All those I have met have been both reasonable, very

:29:19. > :29:24.frustrated, some have been intensely angry, and understandably so. I have

:29:25. > :29:29.no doubt that more could have been done by parties of all sides to

:29:30. > :29:33.improve communication. I'm sorry the lady is laughing at me, I wish she

:29:34. > :29:36.wouldn't because this is not a laughing matter. I'm desperate

:29:37. > :29:41.trying to explain here that I think more needs to be done on their

:29:42. > :29:45.behalf, the cars we can review what is being done in terms of

:29:46. > :29:51.communication, but that will not help these individuals. I want to

:29:52. > :29:55.look carefully at what Waspi are looking for because the strength of

:29:56. > :30:00.their campaign. Their petition is clear on what it calls for. I quote,

:30:01. > :30:05.to put all women in their 50s are affected by the changes of the state

:30:06. > :30:08.pension age at exactly the same financial position they would have

:30:09. > :30:12.been had they been born on or before the 5th of April 19 50. My

:30:13. > :30:18.understanding, and I want to be corrected if I am wrong, that would

:30:19. > :30:21.effectively mean restore the state pension age to 60 for that

:30:22. > :30:24.particular cohort of women. If that's the case, I think it's a

:30:25. > :30:29.perfectly valid argument to make, but one I can't agree with. I think

:30:30. > :30:34.the cost of doing so would be too great for the Exchequer to bear.

:30:35. > :30:39.That doesn't mean that the answer is we do nothing. I think there are

:30:40. > :30:45.many ways we can try to look at what these transitional arrangements

:30:46. > :30:52.could be. I listened carefully to the SNP 's speech. I wasn't clear

:30:53. > :30:55.what those plans amounted to. From the shadow secretary of state, I

:30:56. > :31:00.found him to be a reasonable man when I have debated with him in the

:31:01. > :31:04.chamber, from the first time we met to discuss epilepsy, I've had a high

:31:05. > :31:10.regard for him. He came up with six options. Some are mutually

:31:11. > :31:14.exclusive. None of which had a price tag attacked, nor did he select a

:31:15. > :31:19.particular preference. But I thought it was a useful starting point. What

:31:20. > :31:23.I would urge everybody on all sides is, the more information we have,

:31:24. > :31:26.the more we can start to select which are the most appropriate

:31:27. > :31:31.methods going forward. What problem are we trying to solve here? Which

:31:32. > :31:37.is the most proportionate means to solve those problems. Which one of

:31:38. > :31:41.those six could address the concerns? Some will be too costly,

:31:42. > :31:46.some might not be, but we must be open to the information. The more

:31:47. > :31:50.they can be costed, the better. The other point I make to Waspi, in

:31:51. > :31:53.their evidence to the work and pensions select committee, I think

:31:54. > :31:57.they made an error of judgment perhaps, in that they appeared to

:31:58. > :32:01.rely on the prospect of any use of either means tested benefits, or

:32:02. > :32:05.other pensionable benefits, to adjust some of the problem is that

:32:06. > :32:10.these people might be facing. I think that was also a mistake to

:32:11. > :32:15.make, because there is the potential to discuss, how once people are into

:32:16. > :32:18.their pension, they could find somewhere to either mitigate the

:32:19. > :32:24.impact or adjust the impact. Might bring forward the age at which they

:32:25. > :32:29.can claim, but reduce the amount that they do claim, for example. I

:32:30. > :32:31.would hope we can look also at whether changes need to be

:32:32. > :32:39.universal, or specifically means tested. Many of my most vulnerable

:32:40. > :32:42.pensioners, as the honourable member from Bedfordshire make clear, are

:32:43. > :32:49.the least well off, so I hope you can at least have a wider debate.

:32:50. > :32:53.Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker, and I start by offering you and the house

:32:54. > :33:01.my apologies. Unfortunately I will not be able to be in the wind ups

:33:02. > :33:05.because I'm in front bench duty at Westminster Hall from 4pm, and no

:33:06. > :33:10.discourtesy is intended to the shadow minister or minister closing.

:33:11. > :33:14.It's a pleasure, as always, to take part in these debates. But I am a

:33:15. > :33:22.little saddened by the Minister's response to what I think is a fairly

:33:23. > :33:27.clear motion that has been put out by the Labour front bench. Because

:33:28. > :33:33.what we are asking for, we are calling on the government to set out

:33:34. > :33:37.a process of transitional arrangements to be put in place for

:33:38. > :33:44.this group of women who have been served a very real injustice. I'm

:33:45. > :33:52.not concerned about the who, where, how, what, when my kids are

:33:53. > :33:56.squabbling, they get put on the naughty step. I'm not bothered about

:33:57. > :34:03.the questions, we are where we are. The Waspi women appreciate that we

:34:04. > :34:09.are where we are. The real injustice is that they have been denied fair

:34:10. > :34:15.transitional arrangements. When we were discussing changes to members

:34:16. > :34:24.of Parliament is pension schemes, we put in place, through an independent

:34:25. > :34:27.system that I accept, a 10-year transitional arrangement so that

:34:28. > :34:31.those honourable and Right Honourable members who are within

:34:32. > :34:34.ten years from their normal retirement age were able to remain

:34:35. > :34:39.on the old House of Commons system, and the rest of us were moved to the

:34:40. > :34:46.new system. I say this to the Minister, if it's good enough for

:34:47. > :34:54.us, it's good enough for them. And they deserve that freedom to be able

:34:55. > :34:56.to have enough time to make alternative arrangements, because

:34:57. > :35:03.those were the arguments that were put when our pension changes came.

:35:04. > :35:09.It's not one rule for us and one rule for the people outside of this

:35:10. > :35:15.chamber. I argue, quite reasonably, that they should expect the same

:35:16. > :35:21.treatment that we expect when we had changes to our pension systems. I

:35:22. > :35:25.realise the Minister is not the pensions minister. The pensions

:35:26. > :35:29.minister resides in the other place, and I have to say that being kind to

:35:30. > :35:33.the Minister, who seemed very tetchy in his response, it probably showed

:35:34. > :35:38.that he wasn't the pensions minister. I just want to say this to

:35:39. > :35:44.him, this is what the Waspi women are calling for. This is their

:35:45. > :35:47.petition. It is that the government must make a fair transitional

:35:48. > :35:53.arrangements for all women born on or after the 6th of April 1951, who

:35:54. > :35:59.have unfairly born the burden of increases in the state pension age.

:36:00. > :36:05.They are not asking for changes in legislation. They are asking for

:36:06. > :36:10.fairness. That brings me back to the Labour motion today, which will be

:36:11. > :36:14.voted on. And we all have the chance, to not just give platitudes

:36:15. > :36:20.to those women, but to actually show that we mean it in the division

:36:21. > :36:25.lobbies later today. And that is that we call on the government to

:36:26. > :36:29.bring forward proposals for transitional arrangements for these

:36:30. > :36:35.same women. Because they deserve fairness. And that is what this

:36:36. > :36:39.debate has called for, and I commend my honourable friend, the shadow

:36:40. > :36:44.secretary of state, for calling it. Because it does allow us to have a

:36:45. > :36:50.vote and to show these women we mean what we say.

:36:51. > :36:58.I rise to speak to represent the views of Linda Anderson and others

:36:59. > :37:04.who came to see me from the Waspi campaign group in Salisbury last

:37:05. > :37:09.week. What was clear from their representations is that they had a

:37:10. > :37:16.real and brave sense of injustice. There was clearly a different set of

:37:17. > :37:20.experiences in terms of what they received over the years and their

:37:21. > :37:26.understanding of the different entitlements they should have had.

:37:27. > :37:31.But in this debate today, I have been disappointed either lack of

:37:32. > :37:36.clarity of the alternatives that have been presented. We had a

:37:37. > :37:44.powerful speech from the front bench spokesman for the SNP but did not

:37:45. > :37:50.have clarity or costings on what amelioration his party proposes.

:37:51. > :37:58.From the opposition front bench, as my honourable friend said, we had a

:37:59. > :38:05.menu of options but no price tags and no choices. What I wanted to any

:38:06. > :38:09.few moments is set out what I would do and say how much it would cost

:38:10. > :38:15.because I think it is important we have some integrity in terms of

:38:16. > :38:19.addressing the campaigners who have come to see us because there has

:38:20. > :38:24.been far too much and motive trying to get alongside the Waspi

:38:25. > :38:30.campaigners and say it is my party who will do something about this and

:38:31. > :38:34.make accusations about a government that has put in significant changes

:38:35. > :38:39.to raise the standard of living of pensioners and setting in place

:38:40. > :38:44.mechanisms to ensure that changes in life expectancy reflected in the

:38:45. > :38:51.provision this Government makes for senior citizens. It is clear the

:38:52. > :38:56.pathway to equalisation was set a long time ago and it is clear that

:38:57. > :39:01.there was some communication after the legislation was passed in 1995

:39:02. > :39:08.but I want to go back to this report of the select committee in 2004.

:39:09. > :39:13.There is no ambiguity over what that report referred to in terms of the

:39:14. > :39:20.on the bus surveyed which referred to woman in 2004, aged 45 to 54,

:39:21. > :39:27.nearly three quarters were aware of the changes and that was 12 years

:39:28. > :39:32.ago. I say this not to deflect from the sense of injustice of the iMac

:39:33. > :39:39.campaign but to suggest that there have been a range of experiences and

:39:40. > :39:46.awareness of these changes, so it is difficult to come down with clarity

:39:47. > :39:49.on who knew what, when. But there does seem to be a real injustice for

:39:50. > :39:56.this group of people who are now very near their pensionable age for

:39:57. > :40:01.what they thought was their pensionable age and have now had

:40:02. > :40:08.extended. Their lifestyle will give compromised, often there partners

:40:09. > :40:13.are already retired and it has grave implications for quality of life, so

:40:14. > :40:18.I propose that this group of pensioners in that cohort in the

:40:19. > :40:23.early 50s are given the option to take their pension earlier. They are

:40:24. > :40:28.given that option and their pension will be reduced by a relatively

:40:29. > :40:35.small amount for two or three years and it should be cost neutral to the

:40:36. > :40:37.Government and you can even take in effect the cost of the

:40:38. > :40:43.administrative changes that would mean. That seems to me a reasonable

:40:44. > :40:48.approach because it says there is a good chance that three quarters of

:40:49. > :40:53.you would have heard about it but if you didn't, this option exists, and

:40:54. > :40:58.I urge the front bench to consider that and come back with their

:40:59. > :41:03.response. I I am pleased to speak in this debate because so many cases

:41:04. > :41:08.have shown how the changes wrought by the 2011 Pensions Act affect the

:41:09. > :41:14.lives of millions of women who work unfairly bury the personal cost of

:41:15. > :41:19.increases to the state pension age because many find themselves without

:41:20. > :41:26.a job or benefits to live on and that has to focus our minds, and

:41:27. > :41:30.many women born in the 1950s are living in financial hardship. In our

:41:31. > :41:35.last debate I asked the minister where was the support for Minister

:41:36. > :41:38.affected either state pension age increases that his government

:41:39. > :41:45.brought in. There were 2.6 million women born in the 1950s affected by

:41:46. > :41:51.this but finding suitable employment went in your 60s is not the same as

:41:52. > :41:54.in your teens and 20s, and experience with Mike on the Jones

:41:55. > :42:01.suggests that suitable programmes do not exist. These facts were known in

:42:02. > :42:07.2011. The minister was pilloried, even by his own party, when he read

:42:08. > :42:12.out a list of benefits available to women affected by these changes. I

:42:13. > :42:17.want to say to him he does not realise what it means to go to a job

:42:18. > :42:22.centre or be pushed onto a work programme, woman in my constituency

:42:23. > :42:28.told me how they felt going to job centres, they felt there was no pity

:42:29. > :42:33.doing that as a woman in your 60s, after a lifetime of working and

:42:34. > :42:40.paying National Insurance. One constituent said she was pleased

:42:41. > :42:46.this was being taken off because it was making her ill having to deal

:42:47. > :42:52.with them. One woman is on a work programme that fails to take into

:42:53. > :42:55.account her previous experience and she is worried about being part of a

:42:56. > :43:03.programme where she has to work for free. Others talk about her

:43:04. > :43:10.experience with programme providers. 160 rolled woman with a full work

:43:11. > :43:15.history was reporting being escorted by staff around a shopping centre

:43:16. > :43:20.with the CV to make speculative applications to managers in shops

:43:21. > :43:26.but her CV had been changed by the programme provider to disguise her

:43:27. > :43:31.age, and there are legal issues but adding those aside because

:43:32. > :43:37.misrepresentation of that sort can make void a contract, putting that

:43:38. > :43:44.aside, we can see the acceleration of state pension ages is pushing

:43:45. > :43:48.some women into that situation. Women have described the process as

:43:49. > :43:52.degrading, being frogmarched with a falsified CV around eight shopping

:43:53. > :44:00.centre is humiliating because the same provider offered inappropriate

:44:01. > :44:05.sentiments like sweets or chocolates to encourage them to apply for jobs.

:44:06. > :44:10.Women fear sanctions if they refused to participate. We should be ashamed

:44:11. > :44:15.of a system that treats women that way when they have worked all their

:44:16. > :44:20.lives. Why does the Government not considered different schemes? Why

:44:21. > :44:25.had they not looked at a bridge pension scheme, offering

:44:26. > :44:30.concessionary travel, offering winter fuel payments? Through their

:44:31. > :44:35.lives these women have been disadvantaged in terms of pay and

:44:36. > :44:40.pensions. They deserve better after a lifetime of work them being

:44:41. > :44:45.frogmarched around shopping centres offered sweets to fill in job

:44:46. > :44:48.applications. They deserve consideration of a lifetime of work

:44:49. > :44:58.and contribution and fairer conditional arrangements. --

:44:59. > :45:03.transitional. I support this motion, opportunistic though it is, I will

:45:04. > :45:09.have to vote against the Government which I do not make a habit of Butt

:45:10. > :45:13.out of loyalty to Waspi and support of arrangement they agree with, and

:45:14. > :45:20.because legislation is to be fair and proportionate and this is on for

:45:21. > :45:28.and has fallen disproportionately on a small number of women. It has been

:45:29. > :45:31.unprecedented, I have never known a debate on the same subject five

:45:32. > :45:35.times in two months, Westminster Hall with standing room only in the

:45:36. > :45:41.last debate. I welcome the options put forward by the shadow front

:45:42. > :45:45.bench, they have problems but they are a starting point and the

:45:46. > :45:50.Government has not come up with options and offered to help to model

:45:51. > :45:55.them and I would ask me can have dialogue and detail and definition.

:45:56. > :46:02.There is cross-party support on getting this problem sorted, it will

:46:03. > :46:05.not go away and I would ask the minister if you will agree for the

:46:06. > :46:11.Secretary of State to beat a cross-party delegation of honourable

:46:12. > :46:16.members with key members of the Waspi campaign with the help of

:46:17. > :46:20.civil servants to look at models, to cost those and give the implications

:46:21. > :46:25.so we can have faxed to see how practical or temperature call some

:46:26. > :46:29.things might be. Given the time, I want to read from two letters from

:46:30. > :46:34.constituents who speak more eloquently than I could. One lady

:46:35. > :46:41.said two years before she was due to retire she had to wait until she was

:46:42. > :46:45.66, when she began work at 15 she was always going to work until she

:46:46. > :46:51.was 60 so everything was planned for that time. My family to leave in

:46:52. > :46:56.working to save for the future. Despite being widowed at 202I never

:46:57. > :47:02.accepted hand-outs. As a single mother I supported my son for six

:47:03. > :47:08.years, I was lucky enough to remarry but still continued to work. After

:47:09. > :47:14.two bouts of cancer I finally had to stop working in my mid-50s and had

:47:15. > :47:19.to claim incapacity enough at but was reassured that after five years

:47:20. > :47:23.I would receive my pension, so it was a complete shock that two years

:47:24. > :47:29.because before I was due to receive it, I find I will not get it until I

:47:30. > :47:33.I am 66. Another says she has worked as a nurse for 40 years, she

:47:34. > :47:38.believed the Government would look after her and that he had a contract

:47:39. > :47:42.which they have now broken as she will be 66 when she receives her

:47:43. > :47:48.pension. This will cause hardship when I grow older and I feel let

:47:49. > :47:52.down, my pension age has been changed twice and I cannot believe a

:47:53. > :47:58.woman born two years before me already receives her pension.

:47:59. > :48:03.Another lady says, it seems we older women are considered an important

:48:04. > :48:09.and not worth the financial support we have earned. I agree, and we need

:48:10. > :48:15.to send out a strong message that we do care about those women, there has

:48:16. > :48:19.been a disproportionate affect from well-intentioned changes to the

:48:20. > :48:25.pension age, and nobody is saying we need to go back to a pre-1995 level

:48:26. > :48:29.but there is a compromise to be reached, common-sense that needs to

:48:30. > :48:34.break out and the Government needs to listen to all sides of this House

:48:35. > :48:37.and listen to woman who we value who have been affected

:48:38. > :48:43.disproportionately by these changes and I hope the minister but take

:48:44. > :48:47.away that message and that we can open a dialogue because we are

:48:48. > :48:51.talking about real woman facing real hardship after hard working lives,

:48:52. > :48:58.giving the sort of thing we encourage people to do everyday.

:48:59. > :49:01.Today we find ourselves debating the transitional arrangements and the

:49:02. > :49:08.need for them following equalisation of the state pension age. Contrary

:49:09. > :49:12.to what was said earlier, everyone, including the woman affected, accept

:49:13. > :49:17.the equalisation of the state pension age but in practice these

:49:18. > :49:24.changes have had such a detrimental affect to the lives of a group of

:49:25. > :49:30.women board in the 1950s and many thousands in the country, so we

:49:31. > :49:36.can't ignore this no longer. Like many of us here, I have had many

:49:37. > :49:43.women from Waspi contact me in my surgeries or via e-mail to raise

:49:44. > :49:45.concerns about the impact the lack of transitional arrangements will

:49:46. > :49:50.have on their lives. We have had many debates yet time and again the

:49:51. > :49:56.Government have healed to move one inch from their position and

:49:57. > :50:00.continue to ignore these concerns. From the many letters I have

:50:01. > :50:07.received, the common theme was that the escalation in equalisation of

:50:08. > :50:11.the state pension age has ruined these women's plans, savings and in

:50:12. > :50:19.some cases lives. One case stands out in particular, a woman born in

:50:20. > :50:22.1957 who explained that she saw these changes mentioned a queue

:50:23. > :50:27.times on the news but as she never received a letter she assumed it

:50:28. > :50:33.would not affect her or she would have been told. She eventually

:50:34. > :50:37.received a letter in 2014, a routine pension calculation she thought

:50:38. > :50:42.which showed her state pension age is 2023. She thought it was a

:50:43. > :50:48.mistake and was horrified to discover later that it was not a

:50:49. > :50:55.that instead of a pension next year she has to work a further six years.

:50:56. > :51:05.She is in bad health and couldn't visit coping, but upon realisation

:51:06. > :51:10.of the enormity of what this meant to her and her life, health

:51:11. > :51:12.deteriorated, she became depressed and required meditation --

:51:13. > :51:21.medication, and I would hazard will never be the same again. None of us

:51:22. > :51:24.can turn back time but just for a second, can the Minister put

:51:25. > :51:28.yourself in that position, imagine you are that lady finding out that

:51:29. > :51:34.new Zimbabwe and how that would feel. Imagine the shock. We did

:51:35. > :51:40.that, we, this institution, this Parliament. Many of us were not MPs

:51:41. > :51:45.in 1995, but some of us were in 2011, and the laws of this land we

:51:46. > :51:51.make here affect people out there. Was it not our duty to insure these

:51:52. > :51:54.women who were about to be delivered of this great life altering shock at

:51:55. > :51:58.least knew about it, that they knew when they heard on the news that it

:51:59. > :52:03.did affect them, not because they researched the small print

:52:04. > :52:06.themselves, but because the Department for Work and Pensions

:52:07. > :52:21.wrote to them personally and told them in good time, not as

:52:22. > :52:24.late as 2014. Surely that was the least the department could have

:52:25. > :52:27.done, and we, Parliament, should have insisted upon it. We cannot

:52:28. > :52:30.turn back time and wave that magic wand that a lot of people think we

:52:31. > :52:32.have because we don't have one. But we can insist that the Government

:52:33. > :52:35.does, and what this minister must drop with haste, are transitional

:52:36. > :52:40.arrangements for this group of women who have been failed by the system,

:52:41. > :52:44.failed by these changes. We cannot fail than today. Parliament is at

:52:45. > :52:49.its best when using its power for the good of its people. Parliament

:52:50. > :52:54.is speaking clearly today to the Government. Go away, sort this out

:52:55. > :52:57.and bring forward transitional arrangements so these women are not

:52:58. > :53:05.left destitute in what should have been there well earned retirement.

:53:06. > :53:09.No one in this House can doubt the sincerity of the campaign or the

:53:10. > :53:13.numbers of women who have signed the petition, but as this is the fifth

:53:14. > :53:18.debate we should start with what has changed since the last one. Today's

:53:19. > :53:22.motion is about bringing forward transitional arrangements, and that

:53:23. > :53:26.is the wording on the petition of the campaign, and that sounds

:53:27. > :53:32.harmless, but what are these transitional arrangements? The

:53:33. > :53:39.Shadow pensions Minister in the last debate included a specific proposal,

:53:40. > :53:44.a perfectly reasonable one, about extending pension credit. But that

:53:45. > :53:48.had been specifically ruled out by the spokeswoman of the campaign in

:53:49. > :53:53.evidence to the select committee. The Shadow Work and Pensions

:53:54. > :53:55.Secretary today, like the SNP spokesman, but talked passionately

:53:56. > :53:59.about doing the right thing, but they didn't say what that was or

:54:00. > :54:04.what their commitment is, or what their parties would do in the

:54:05. > :54:07.position, in some cases unlikely, of being responsible for the finances

:54:08. > :54:14.and pension arrangements for the United Kingdom. I believe, Mr Deputy

:54:15. > :54:17.Speaker, that there is a serious danger of opposition members here,

:54:18. > :54:25.in their sympathy for the cause of the campaign, of leading these women

:54:26. > :54:31.up the garden path, encouraging them with sympathy but giving no

:54:32. > :54:37.commitment whatsoever. And it is important that the House understands

:54:38. > :54:43.that their main ask is exactly as I spelt out, from their Facebook page,

:54:44. > :54:47.in the last debate, which is to ask for everybody born, all women born

:54:48. > :54:54.in the 1950s to be in the same financial position as those born

:54:55. > :55:00.before April 19 50. That is their "Main ask". It reverses the 1995 Act

:55:01. > :55:04.in important ways. What would the cost be? Since the last debate we

:55:05. > :55:09.have the data from the DWP to the select committee, and it is much

:55:10. > :55:15.greater than any of us imagined. There would be an immediate cost of

:55:16. > :55:21.?29 million in 2016-17, bigger than the entire budget for Scotland. The

:55:22. > :55:29.total cost up to 2020 alone would be ?77 million. Mr Deputy Speaker, when

:55:30. > :55:33.I discuss this issue with my wife and my sisters and others born in

:55:34. > :55:38.the 1950s, and I explain to them that pensions are paid every year

:55:39. > :55:44.not out of some magic protected pot called national insurance, but out

:55:45. > :55:48.of general taxpayers revenue paid by the Next Generation, our children

:55:49. > :55:54.and grandchildren, none of them, none of the women I have spoken to,

:55:55. > :56:02.believe that cost of ?77 billion is remotely practical. So there is...

:56:03. > :56:05.That is why the opposition will never propose that or agree to it

:56:06. > :56:11.under any circumstances. So the question is, are there other

:56:12. > :56:14.arrangements, and the other potential arrangements are being

:56:15. > :56:20.considered by the select committee in a report on the new state pension

:56:21. > :56:23.Act, which will include a section specifically on this campaign. I

:56:24. > :56:28.believe that members should wait until that report has come out and

:56:29. > :56:32.the conclusions of the select committee are there to be seen by

:56:33. > :56:37.everyone, and it will only be about three weeks from now, and then they

:56:38. > :56:41.will be able to see the real impact and the real cost of some of the

:56:42. > :56:46.suggestions that have been put forward today. But Mr Deputy

:56:47. > :56:50.Speaker, we should be clear, the campaign is a genuine one, it is a

:56:51. > :56:55.principled one, they cared passionately and feel they have been

:56:56. > :56:58.badly treated, but this House has an obligation not to mislead them and

:56:59. > :57:07.pretend things will be done which will never be done. That is why the

:57:08. > :57:12.main ask is not possible. Sometimes, a campaign captures the mood of this

:57:13. > :57:16.nation. This campaign has done just that. Like so much of this

:57:17. > :57:21.Government's agenda the speed of the transition arrangements for women's

:57:22. > :57:26.state pensions betrays a rush to pinch pennies at too great a human

:57:27. > :57:29.expense. Even more so than other groups hit by austerity, these women

:57:30. > :57:34.have stung back and the wave of public support for their cause I

:57:35. > :57:38.believe speaks volumes. We have a strong tradition of equality

:57:39. > :57:43.campaigning in this country. I think of the suffragettes and their

:57:44. > :57:46.determination to give women a voice whatever the cost, their chartists

:57:47. > :57:51.and their drive for universal suffrage, the Ford Dagenham workers

:57:52. > :57:53.and the demand for equal pay, Stonewall and their tireless

:57:54. > :58:01.challenging homophobia in law, and the force forces society -- Fawcett

:58:02. > :58:06.Society in their provocative challenge of this is what a feminist

:58:07. > :58:12.looks like. Firstly I would say, this is what a feminist looks like.

:58:13. > :58:15.Secondly each of these campaigns was driven by anger at injustice,

:58:16. > :58:21.unfairness and the unreasonableness of those in power to listen to a

:58:22. > :58:28.reasonable case. As we have heard, moving the goalposts on state

:58:29. > :58:32.pension age equalisation so quickly is betraying the lives of women

:58:33. > :58:37.whose lives have been already too challenging. They have already had

:58:38. > :58:42.access to paternalistic -- maternity leave, fair pay and shared parental

:58:43. > :58:45.leave and suffered bullying in the workplace and regularly settled for

:58:46. > :58:49.low paid, low skilled jobs below their potential because flexible

:58:50. > :58:54.working was not an option for them. They are a generation of women who

:58:55. > :58:58.can put you -- too few seats in the boardroom. Women who finished their

:58:59. > :59:02.working lives earning significantly less than their male counterparts.

:59:03. > :59:06.These women have paid their dues and they deserve a decent retirement.

:59:07. > :59:09.They deserve at a minimum to be able to plan their retirement with the

:59:10. > :59:27.certainty and expectation others have. It is right

:59:28. > :59:31.that the qualification retirement age for the state pension should be

:59:32. > :59:33.the same for men and women. The campaign does not dispute this. But

:59:34. > :59:36.the pace of this change has robbed people of time to repair and make

:59:37. > :59:38.informed decisions, to honour other commitments about putting oneself in

:59:39. > :59:39.financial jeopardy. These have been robbed from the campaigners.

:59:40. > :59:42.Reasonable decisions about their family futures have been lost to a

:59:43. > :59:45.forced hand. 3800 of my constituents are believed to be affected. That is

:59:46. > :59:48.over 5% of my electorate. Of these 2000 will experience a year

:59:49. > :59:53.increased to state pension age and 450 will experience the full 18

:59:54. > :59:59.month delay. Several have contacted me to express concerns, including

:00:00. > :00:03.Gail Jones and Barbara Evans, women who have contributed to the

:00:04. > :00:05.extractor and their communities throughout their lives, women now

:00:06. > :00:10.being short-changed -- to the exchequer. This Government has at

:00:11. > :00:15.times proven they can acknowledge it has misjudged a policy by retreating

:00:16. > :00:19.on its attempts to cut tax credits and police numbers. Cynics among us

:00:20. > :00:23.will say yes -- that this happens when the Chancellor feels it will

:00:24. > :00:27.affect his career but it is the case they have occasionally done the

:00:28. > :00:29.U-turn. I trust on this occasion the Minister will finally listen to the

:00:30. > :00:34.strength of feeling from these benches and both sides of the House,

:00:35. > :00:40.but especially to the passionate appeals by the campaigners, and

:00:41. > :00:43.agree to revisit these arrangements. Let the Minister respect these women

:00:44. > :00:46.who have contributed so much to the National purse and the national

:00:47. > :00:51.fabric, and I hope when the Minister thumbs up, he will show from the

:00:52. > :00:58.dispatch box today that he is what a feminist looks like and pledged to

:00:59. > :01:03.think again. I have to say this has been a quite interesting debate,

:01:04. > :01:08.sometimes quite poor, but clearly of great interest to many of our

:01:09. > :01:13.constituents. Many of us came into politics to do the right thing, to

:01:14. > :01:16.look after the right sorts of people, and clearly I joined the

:01:17. > :01:21.Conservative Party because I wanted to make sure those who did the right

:01:22. > :01:27.thing, who go out to work and save for their future are protected in

:01:28. > :01:30.their old age. I think that runs very deep through the Conservative

:01:31. > :01:34.Party and we should make sure we look after those who have been out

:01:35. > :01:38.there, worked hard, or those that stayed at home and looked after

:01:39. > :01:44.their children and made sure their children set off on the right path.

:01:45. > :01:49.And I think today's debate, really, has been a sad reflection on those

:01:50. > :01:53.women who find themselves in this very difficult circumstance. We had

:01:54. > :01:58.to listen to 30 minutes from the Labour front bench of blatant party

:01:59. > :02:03.politicking around the issues and challenges we face without a single

:02:04. > :02:09.commitment to what they would do if they were left in this position. I

:02:10. > :02:12.think that is really sad, that they talked about six particular options

:02:13. > :02:17.available, they committed to none of them. They didn't say whether to do

:02:18. > :02:22.one of them, two of them or six of them. And I think that was a real

:02:23. > :02:26.shame that they didn't nail their flag to the poll and say, if we were

:02:27. > :02:34.in the hot seat, and they left us in the hot seat, what they would do. To

:02:35. > :02:40.be fair to the Blair Government, in 95, with the pensions Act, they did

:02:41. > :02:44.try to engage with those people who found themselves in that difficult

:02:45. > :02:48.position as we move through the Labour Government, but they didn't

:02:49. > :02:52.go far enough, they didn't recognise the enormous time bomb coming in

:02:53. > :02:58.terms of demographic change. And they left us in 2010 with this

:02:59. > :03:03.enormous mountain to climb, to be able to solve the challenges for

:03:04. > :03:09.these people, as we all live longer and healthier lives. In 2011, the

:03:10. > :03:14.Conservative Coalition Government tried to solve this challenge by

:03:15. > :03:19.bringing forward the 2011 Pensions Act to meet that gap. Now, it is

:03:20. > :03:24.very challenging when you find yourself at the wrong side of that

:03:25. > :03:29.line, and clearly a line had to be drawn somewhere so we could move the

:03:30. > :03:35.pension age up over a period of time. And I do recognise that some

:03:36. > :03:39.people now find themselves in really difficult circumstances, and I will

:03:40. > :03:42.be listening to the Minister to identify if there are any ways we

:03:43. > :03:46.can mitigate some of the challenge they face, but at the same time, I

:03:47. > :03:52.think we have to recognise already some of the changes that have taken

:03:53. > :03:57.place, over ?1 billion of mitigation which has gone in since our time in

:03:58. > :04:00.office to try to smooth the way these people. I am enormously

:04:01. > :04:04.sympathetic to the challenge I face and I will meet some soon in my

:04:05. > :04:11.constituency. I think this debate will continue for a long time. I

:04:12. > :04:15.have to be honest, when I heard we were debating this issue again I

:04:16. > :04:19.thought, what am I going to talk about? Everything is already on the

:04:20. > :04:23.record, we have already discussed how the new single tier state

:04:24. > :04:28.pension is irrelevant of these women and will not solve the problem, we

:04:29. > :04:31.also went to great lengths to explain how nobody is disagreeing

:04:32. > :04:37.with equalisation, nobody is calling acts to be repealed, then I came

:04:38. > :04:41.across this document sent by a Conservative MP to a woman affected.

:04:42. > :04:45.On the front page it says the Government cannot do anything

:04:46. > :04:50.because they are campaigning for all women born after April 1951 to be

:04:51. > :04:55.given their state pension from age 60. No, they are not, that is not

:04:56. > :05:00.what they are asking. The Member for Gloucester earlier was talking about

:05:01. > :05:05.misleading. That is misleading, nobody is against equalisation. On

:05:06. > :05:06.Monday I attended a media training course, teaching you how to look at

:05:07. > :05:24.the camera, where to put your hands. One of the guys

:05:25. > :05:26.taking it said to me that as a politician, if you find yourself in

:05:27. > :05:29.a difficult situation where you think you are in the wrong and you

:05:30. > :05:32.need to get through the interview, do not address the issue, start

:05:33. > :05:35.talking about what you want to talk about. It hit me, that is what this

:05:36. > :05:37.statement is doing. Every time we talk about this you talk about

:05:38. > :05:41.irrelevant things. The campaign states that national insurance

:05:42. > :05:43.credits are available... National insurance payments also affect

:05:44. > :05:56.entitlement to other benefits. One of my achievements described

:05:57. > :06:04.pensions as a contract, so let's make this simple, everyone in here

:06:05. > :06:09.has a phone, we have a contract. If O2 or virgin or anyone else were to

:06:10. > :06:14.change the terms or conditions, we would have something to say and if

:06:15. > :06:18.they waited 14 years to tell us that terms have changed a sure everybody

:06:19. > :06:24.would have something to say about it. If they also said we would be

:06:25. > :06:29.forced to live off savings because of the changes, we would be up in

:06:30. > :06:35.arms, so why are pensions any different? We hear about where this

:06:36. > :06:42.money will come from but this comes back to austerity. This is austerity

:06:43. > :06:47.of choice and the front bench can't say all they like, I have yet to

:06:48. > :06:51.hear of a general or Defence Minister to save we cannot bomb that

:06:52. > :06:57.country because we have exceeded our budget, when we want to bomb Syria,

:06:58. > :07:01.or refurbish Westminster, we can find it but we cannot give

:07:02. > :07:09.pensioners their pension. I cannot accept that. This debate reminds me

:07:10. > :07:13.of that tax credit debate, we were given arguments as to how it was

:07:14. > :07:18.unfair and the Government responded that they do not have the money and

:07:19. > :07:24.then went political pressure was put on them, one hand down the back of

:07:25. > :07:30.the coach and taken up audit and do a U-turn, which brings me to my last

:07:31. > :07:41.point. How can we ignore the will of this House. We have voted 158-0, how

:07:42. > :07:45.can we ignore that. We debated in a packed Westminster Hall with almost

:07:46. > :07:52.everybody speaking against the Government, the Government cannot

:07:53. > :07:57.continue to ignore this House. I am no fan of Westminster, I think it is

:07:58. > :08:02.more about ego than issue that even the most savvy minds must see this

:08:03. > :08:07.is not party political. We have a chance to come together and do

:08:08. > :08:14.something that will earn respect, so the Government should take this type

:08:15. > :08:18.of like this chance and act. In the last few months I have met a number

:08:19. > :08:25.of constituents who have been impacted IDs changes. The detail how

:08:26. > :08:32.the changes had an impact on them and I have every sympathy with them

:08:33. > :08:36.and understand their frustration. I spoke during the backbench debate on

:08:37. > :08:44.this matter in January and congratulated the Waspi campaign.

:08:45. > :08:47.Although any criteria changes will always have an impact on some

:08:48. > :08:53.people, I am conscious these individuals have in many cases

:08:54. > :08:59.worked for decades on the basis they would receive their pensions at a

:09:00. > :09:02.prescribed time. But I am also conscious that with retired list and

:09:03. > :09:07.life expectancy and a number of years it will pay out, they did not

:09:08. > :09:12.expected to reach the level many currently enjoy. These factors have

:09:13. > :09:17.driven successive governments and most nations to increase the pension

:09:18. > :09:24.age. Where I have issues with the motion is that it deals with

:09:25. > :09:28.legislation settled in previous parliaments and employers

:09:29. > :09:32.transitional arrangements. I understand that when the last set of

:09:33. > :09:38.changes were made, a transitional programme was implemented to the

:09:39. > :09:43.tune of over ?1 billion. To manage expectations it would be better to

:09:44. > :09:47.acknowledge that changing these rules would cost ?39 billion and

:09:48. > :09:53.then outline where this money will be saved to pay for the motion to be

:09:54. > :09:57.delivered. I spoke earlier about the need for government to support

:09:58. > :10:03.spending on mental health, especially for young people. Would

:10:04. > :10:09.that be had, or the police budget, the subject of the next opposition

:10:10. > :10:15.motion? I stood on make commitment to pledge budget delivery for 2020,

:10:16. > :10:21.which means this would have to be paid for by someone else. Opposition

:10:22. > :10:26.parties also attempted to cost commitments but I do not recall a

:10:27. > :10:32.commitment to reverse this policy and beer are not managing expect

:10:33. > :10:39.Haitians as it is settled and no party has said where the ?39 million

:10:40. > :10:43.hit will be taken. I am grateful to him for it being way because it

:10:44. > :10:49.enables me to make the point I would have made. To put this sum in

:10:50. > :10:58.context, two ?9 billion, compare that to the annual spend on the NHS

:10:59. > :11:04.of ?120 billion, we then begin to see how difficult it is to make the

:11:05. > :11:08.sums add up. I agree with that and I believe when it comes to fitting the

:11:09. > :11:14.bill, I would have concerns about another group in my contingency,

:11:15. > :11:17.those in their 20s and 30s, sometimes referred to as the

:11:18. > :11:22.high-cost generation because they are saddled with debts University

:11:23. > :11:28.which I and my age group did not have to endure. They are paying high

:11:29. > :11:34.rents and struggling to afford their own home, they are likely to be the

:11:35. > :11:40.subject of future pension changes so I believe in the point just made.

:11:41. > :11:44.Half measured mitigation, if introduced, with revealed the next

:11:45. > :11:49.pension age group to be impacted and we could never move on. The issue of

:11:50. > :11:55.pensions is vexed, it is the case that post retirement life inspect

:11:56. > :12:00.and safe is greater than envisaged when pensions calculations were put

:12:01. > :12:05.in place. With advances to allow those in their 60s to remain fit and

:12:06. > :12:10.active, many in their 60s and beyond are working in a manner which was

:12:11. > :12:14.not envisaged. This is a change in life and working age expectancy and

:12:15. > :12:19.we celebrated because it shows people are living longer and leading

:12:20. > :12:25.figure lies but it means a funding gap, and to avoid placing an

:12:26. > :12:30.obligation on those in their 20s and 30s who were struggling to get on,

:12:31. > :12:36.that gap requires the country to re-evaluate the pension age. This is

:12:37. > :12:41.a settled matter, and until it can be explained which of the current

:12:42. > :12:44.spending commitments will be axed to cover the cost of this ?39 billion

:12:45. > :12:52.change, I cannot support this motion. It has been interesting to

:12:53. > :12:59.hear the passionate arguments on this issue today. I think the first

:13:00. > :13:04.thing we have to point out, this is a political decision. You guys in

:13:05. > :13:10.government decided when that were going to come, we are not asking you

:13:11. > :13:16.to put ?39 billion in, we are saying you not take it out. In the last few

:13:17. > :13:24.months I have had people queueing up at my surgery, 3800 people affected

:13:25. > :13:27.by this change. They feel as if the Government has moved the goalposts.

:13:28. > :13:32.They thought they had a contract with the Government and it seems

:13:33. > :13:37.not, but these are the women who in their early working lives had to

:13:38. > :13:42.give up their job, no such thing as maternity pay, you develop your job

:13:43. > :13:48.and applied for it if you were ready to go back and if there was a job

:13:49. > :13:53.available. These women were not protected by equal pay, earned less

:13:54. > :13:58.than male counterparts and were less able to join a private pension

:13:59. > :14:02.scheme. Nevertheless they acknowledge this and tried to fill

:14:03. > :14:08.the gap. They did not want to be a burden of society but made

:14:09. > :14:13.arrangements and I think they are entitled to a pension they were

:14:14. > :14:23.promised. It seems the Government is not. The people who-spoken to feel

:14:24. > :14:28.as though they have been misled, misinformed and any number of cases

:14:29. > :14:34.not informed at all. They feel the Government is forcing changes on

:14:35. > :14:39.them and nobody is objecting to equality but what we are objecting

:14:40. > :14:44.to is being imposed, difficult financial circumstances, on

:14:45. > :14:49.thousands of people. One woman called cast came to see me upset,

:14:50. > :14:54.she felt frustrated and the minister did not understand the impact these

:14:55. > :15:00.changes have on her life, so in her own words, she said, had you been

:15:01. > :15:06.born 12 months earlier, my retirement age would have been for

:15:07. > :15:10.years sooner. Would that be right? Why has the burden of increase

:15:11. > :15:17.followed in such a short period of time? This is unfair and any

:15:18. > :15:24.intelligent person can see this. Her additional problem is that DWP

:15:25. > :15:29.cannot predict her pension the tours of the number of years she was in an

:15:30. > :15:35.update situation. Is that fair? She is a window and has worked all her

:15:36. > :15:40.life in a range of jobs from NHS, biting sector, self-employed, and

:15:41. > :15:46.now finds everything she has worked for is put on hold. She will have to

:15:47. > :15:50.struggle for a few more years. She feels this is a sad state of affairs

:15:51. > :15:56.and wants to know why this Government is utilising her for

:15:57. > :16:04.working hard all her life. Some transitional arrangements must be in

:16:05. > :16:07.place because women all over the country are put in the same

:16:08. > :16:14.difficult circumstances as people in Blackburn. It is not too late for

:16:15. > :16:24.these women, it is not too late to right the wrongs, transitional

:16:25. > :16:29.arrangements should be made now. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The need for

:16:30. > :16:36.the equalisation of the state pension age is evident. We have an

:16:37. > :16:41.ageing population, people are living healthier and longer lives with a

:16:42. > :16:44.greater proportion drawing a pension while a smaller proportion are

:16:45. > :16:49.contributing through National Insurance. This system risks

:16:50. > :16:56.becoming increasingly difficult to afford without equalisation. At my

:16:57. > :17:04.surgery, a woman called Barbara, who is 59, came to speak to me. She

:17:05. > :17:09.expected to retire at 62 but only recently realised she would have to

:17:10. > :17:13.wait until she was 66 to retire and this is where most of the anger

:17:14. > :17:21.lies, in the notification. Following the changes of 1995, DWP issued a

:17:22. > :17:29.leaflet including direct mail and the advice to public of the changes.

:17:30. > :17:33.In 2004 they ran an information campaign contributing over at 2

:17:34. > :17:42.million pension information guides and adverts to complement an online

:17:43. > :17:45.state pension age calculator. All state pension statement issued from

:17:46. > :17:53.2001 would have included the new state pension age as determined by

:17:54. > :17:59.the 1995 changes and since then over 11 million statements have been

:18:00. > :18:04.issued. Those affected either 2011 changes were informed by letter is

:18:05. > :18:11.sent out and for those of us retiring at 65, in the last few

:18:12. > :18:17.years it has gone to 66 and is now 67 for men and women born in the

:18:18. > :18:23.1960s onwards. Had these efforts been fully successful, we would not

:18:24. > :18:26.be here now debating this issue. This is the fourth debate we have

:18:27. > :18:35.had on this subject in as many nights. -- months. The Waspi has

:18:36. > :18:40.called on the Government to put all women affected by these changes in

:18:41. > :18:44.the same position they would have been born in April 19 50. They want

:18:45. > :18:51.to live the retirement they plan for, following the 2011 changes the

:18:52. > :18:56.Government passed an amendment providing transitional funding to

:18:57. > :19:01.delay the equalisation of the state pension age, on top of bringing the

:19:02. > :19:08.new state pension fraud by four years. To undo the 2011 changes

:19:09. > :19:15.would cost ?30 billion in addition to the loss of ?8 billion in tax

:19:16. > :19:20.revenue. To undo the 1995 changes would cost several times that. The

:19:21. > :19:25.new state pension will come into effect this year and see many women

:19:26. > :19:33.better off than they would have been under the old system. ?460 a year

:19:34. > :19:37.more than they would have got. The triple lock which ensures the same

:19:38. > :19:44.state tension goes up by whichever is higher out of inflation, wages

:19:45. > :19:48.were 2.5%, means the basic state pension will be higher than it was

:19:49. > :19:52.at the start of the last Parliament. The lesson to be learned by all

:19:53. > :19:58.governments is effective communication. Pensions are complex

:19:59. > :20:03.at the best of times and I have a huge amount of sympathy but it is

:20:04. > :20:08.the Government's fault, not just this Conservative government. Waspi

:20:09. > :20:13.women will receive an improved pension for men and women now

:20:14. > :20:19.retiring at the age of 67, they will live longer on average than men,

:20:20. > :20:23.these reforms are fairer for those who receive them and for the younger

:20:24. > :20:31.generation who will have to pay for them. Usually when somebody says to

:20:32. > :20:35.me that so-and-so is being was the it is a signal to tread with care,

:20:36. > :20:45.so when I heard the work women coming to see me at my surgery I

:20:46. > :20:51.trod with care -- Waspy. I did speak in the 2011 second reading debate to

:20:52. > :20:56.point out the women who left Foxhill comprehensive in 1970 word the same

:20:57. > :21:03.women who were affected eye this and it was not fair and there had to be

:21:04. > :21:08.a better deal then two months transitional on this issue. I am

:21:09. > :21:15.aware we are short of time so I will just give voice to those women.

:21:16. > :21:21.Marie says, my story began when I was 15, leaving school at Easter

:21:22. > :21:26.with no qualifications. From the start of my working life at 15 years

:21:27. > :21:31.I paid a full national insurance stamp believing I was entering into

:21:32. > :21:35.a contract. That is a common belief. I understand the need for equality,

:21:36. > :21:43.the 2011 act has given me know time to prepare for working until I am

:21:44. > :21:48.66. Not only that, but things are heating allowance and bus passes

:21:49. > :21:51.etc... That is a key point, those other allowances that people are

:21:52. > :21:56.debarred from. I am a single parent through no fault of my own, day to

:21:57. > :22:00.day life is a struggle because I have a dependent child and a

:22:01. > :22:03.disabled dependent adult child. I am tired, and the thought of working

:22:04. > :22:06.for another five years is daunting to say the least.

:22:07. > :22:11.Christine said, I feel trapped. Her Christine said, I feel trapped. Her

:22:12. > :22:14.choices are being taken away from her.

:22:15. > :22:19.Annette said to me, I was born in May 1954 and my state pension date

:22:20. > :22:23.has moved twice. The first time I fought in writing but it was

:22:24. > :22:27.changing from my 60th birthday to my 64th year. Since then I heard

:22:28. > :22:29.nothing until somebody told me to check the website. I entered my date

:22:30. > :22:37.of birth. The state then came up as of birth. The state then came up as

:22:38. > :22:43.January 2021, another 18 months. -- the data then came up as. I am sure

:22:44. > :22:46.you will agree this is unfair and poor communication.

:22:47. > :22:50.Another woman pointed out to me that her older sister was born in April

:22:51. > :22:54.1952 and has already received her state pension, she is 22 years

:22:55. > :23:02.younger and has to wait an extra five years five months. Not a fairer

:23:03. > :23:08.and not reasonable. I could go on with many other examples. Examples

:23:09. > :23:14.of similar issues. I give way to my honourable friend.

:23:15. > :23:19.I am grateful. There are 3540 women affected in my constituency by the

:23:20. > :23:24.changes. Would-be honourable member agree that the 1995 changes were

:23:25. > :23:30.reasonably well communicated, it is the 2011 changes that were badly

:23:31. > :23:34.communicated and some women affected by the 1995 changes were affected by

:23:35. > :23:41.the 2011 changes, which compound of the issue? She has it spot-on, the

:23:42. > :23:47.communication is one of the issues at the heart of this. Frankly, what

:23:48. > :23:52.happened in 2011 compound did what happened previously and is, strictly

:23:53. > :23:57.speaking, totally unfair. The nature of this debate, which I think has

:23:58. > :24:00.been good once we got to the backbenches, although my honourable

:24:01. > :24:03.friend did very well kicking yourself, I would welcome the

:24:04. > :24:09.comments from the member for black wool North who drew attention to my

:24:10. > :24:17.honourable friend's point about six suggestions and said that was a good

:24:18. > :24:22.starting point. -- Blackpool North. Another person said there was a deal

:24:23. > :24:26.to be done, and I think he is right. For Salisbury and Mid Bedfordshire,

:24:27. > :24:33.those members also encourage the front bench on the Government site

:24:34. > :24:37.to see a way through this, to see a way to put try these injustices.

:24:38. > :24:41.These women are not asking for the world, they are not asking the

:24:42. > :24:45.things that, frankly, some people have suggested, they are asking for

:24:46. > :24:53.a reasonable settlement, a reasonable deal, which is what they

:24:54. > :24:57.deserve. Women of a certain age, of which I am one, across the United

:24:58. > :25:03.Kingdom, are angry at the position they find themselves in. If they

:25:04. > :25:08.were born in March 1953, as the jail in the Jack and Jill twin scenario,

:25:09. > :25:13.they will be absolutely livid. Jack will be getting ?155 a week under

:25:14. > :25:18.the single tier state pension, Jill will be getting ?131, because she

:25:19. > :25:24.was born a woman. Where is the justice in Jack netting ?20,000 more

:25:25. > :25:30.over 20 years than his sister Jill? That is ridiculous. We all know

:25:31. > :25:33.women who do not have access to a private pension who find themselves

:25:34. > :25:38.in a position where they are forced to look for work or, if they take

:25:39. > :25:43.the advice of the Minister opposite, they can sign on for JS saved. It is

:25:44. > :25:47.a slap in the face for every woman who has dedicated themselves to

:25:48. > :25:53.being the back bone of this country. -- sign on for JSA. The absence of

:25:54. > :25:56.the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions, though I am told he is

:25:57. > :26:01.loitering outside but unwilling to come in and defend his Government's

:26:02. > :26:06.policies, is an absolute insult to these women. I am aware of a

:26:07. > :26:10.60-year-old woman who had to find employment as a bus as called for a

:26:11. > :26:16.special needs school. This involves physically manoeuvring youngsters

:26:17. > :26:20.from the vehicle into the building. It is hard, heavy and demanding. How

:26:21. > :26:27.do I know this? Because I did that job in my 30s and I couldn't do it

:26:28. > :26:31.now. The changes to women's pensions are categorically unfair and unjust.

:26:32. > :26:36.Everyone in this chamber and, indeed, across the country, will

:26:37. > :26:39.have heard about the WASPI campaign. We have heard the analogies about

:26:40. > :26:45.the sting in the tail, the buzz in the ad, did anybody really think

:26:46. > :26:50.that in three short months of 2016 we would have debated this issue so

:26:51. > :26:55.many times? That is the power of this lobby. They have proved time

:26:56. > :27:00.and time again that they are fighting on the platform that

:27:01. > :27:04.resonates right across this country. Everyone will know at least one

:27:05. > :27:09.woman affected by this injustice. The women are only asking for

:27:10. > :27:13.fairness. They have been betrayed, been discriminated against, they

:27:14. > :27:16.have been seen as a soft option by this Government. They were seen as

:27:17. > :27:21.the one group that could be pushed to one side to rush through the

:27:22. > :27:27.transitional equal retirement age. The Government bench thought they

:27:28. > :27:31.would save money, in reality they have lost credibility, lost respect

:27:32. > :27:34.and been exposed by this wonderful group of strong women as being

:27:35. > :27:41.petty, arrogant and, quite frankly, ridiculous.

:27:42. > :27:45.Thank you. I am very grateful for the opportunity to speak on this

:27:46. > :27:48.important issue and I would like to thank the women of the WASPI

:27:49. > :27:52.campaign for their tireless efforts in persisting to bring this to

:27:53. > :27:56.Government attention. I want to speak for the women in my

:27:57. > :28:01.constituency, Burnley, for the thousands of women affected by this.

:28:02. > :28:05.There has been much talk about the impact that this will have on the

:28:06. > :28:10.financial impact and what the cost would be. Let's not forget that

:28:11. > :28:15.these women are taxpayers that have worked hard and paid in. This is not

:28:16. > :28:20.a benefit they ask for, this is a right that they are entitled to.

:28:21. > :28:24.Talking about impact, I have talked to women in my constituency who are

:28:25. > :28:29.physically struggling every day to cope with their physical job. I

:28:30. > :28:33.spoke to one lady at the weekend in tears as she told me about her many

:28:34. > :28:39.years of working in an engineering foundry, she is staggering onto

:28:40. > :28:42.retirement age, in bed at 7:30pm, barely able to make to the bus

:28:43. > :28:48.station to get the bus home, working on the minimum age, -- wage, long

:28:49. > :28:52.years, the only light at the ends of the tunnel was retirement age at 60,

:28:53. > :28:58.she thought she might stagger onto that. Not only were the goalposts

:28:59. > :29:06.moved, but the communication was not there. Let's not get into the blame

:29:07. > :29:12.game, whose fault it was, she did not. There has been talk about 2011,

:29:13. > :29:16.19 95. I was not a member of Parliament then. I would say we are

:29:17. > :29:19.where we are. Let's tackle the problem in front of us now.

:29:20. > :29:26.Honourable members on both sides have made sensible suggestions about

:29:27. > :29:30.sitting down together around the table, cross-party, not scoring

:29:31. > :29:33.political points, sitting down with the WASPI women and working out a

:29:34. > :29:40.solution to this terrible mess. Thank you. I congratulate WASPI on

:29:41. > :29:45.the highly effective campaign, particularly those women from Mike

:29:46. > :29:49.constituency who have come to my surgeries. Women across the UK have

:29:50. > :29:57.been hit hard by this, many to their surprise and dismay as their plans

:29:58. > :30:03.have been disrupted, not least for caring for their parents all four

:30:04. > :30:08.children and grandchildren. So often they face unemployment with little

:30:09. > :30:10.hope of getting a job, a bleak life on benefits at a time when they

:30:11. > :30:20.should be enjoying the fruits of their long of work. Plaid Cymru

:30:21. > :30:23.supports equalisation. It is a step towards recognising how

:30:24. > :30:27.circumstances have changed radically since the pension brought in by my

:30:28. > :30:33.predecessor before, as member for can often, Lloyd George, when men

:30:34. > :30:39.did work for the money and generally supported women, and women worked

:30:40. > :30:43.for free. It is not equalisation that is so unfair, but rather the

:30:44. > :30:47.way the Government is bringing it in. As far as my country is

:30:48. > :30:53.concerned, I would say the Government is making the changes in

:30:54. > :30:57.response to the life expectancy, as one of the women who contacted me

:30:58. > :31:05.said, it is our fault for living longer. Both life expectancy and

:31:06. > :31:08.life experience varies significantly depending on class and, crucially,

:31:09. > :31:12.where you live. Women in Wales will be hit particularly hard by these

:31:13. > :31:17.changes. Life expectancy is generally lower in Wales than

:31:18. > :31:20.England, up to 11 years difference. Welsh women and men have less

:31:21. > :31:26.opportunity to enjoy their retirement, incomes in Wales are

:31:27. > :31:31.low, so they have already suffered the disproportionate disadvantage.

:31:32. > :31:35.Job opportunities after you and more insecure, reticulin DM Simcock

:31:36. > :31:45.constituency is -- job opportunities are fewer. Particularly in some

:31:46. > :31:48.constituencies. I as a question, it was smiled sympathetically and the

:31:49. > :31:54.minister talks about Romania and Bulgaria. Disgracefully, that is

:31:55. > :31:59.where we are in income in Wales, on a par with Romania and Bulgaria.

:32:00. > :32:04.Wales has the lowest income per head of the UK nations and regions. Equal

:32:05. > :32:07.treatment of men and women as to the state pension is good, but the way

:32:08. > :32:17.the Government has handled this matter is not good. It is a

:32:18. > :32:23.disgrace, in fact. 1950s born women are not usually seen as a militant

:32:24. > :32:27.group, they were born and raised in that era of, hello, honey, I'm home,

:32:28. > :32:32.spotless perfection, domestic bliss and Formica. At the situation they

:32:33. > :32:38.find themselves in is far from perfect. I have only been an MP

:32:39. > :32:42.since May, and like several members have mentioned, it feels a bit like

:32:43. > :32:47.groundhog Day, this is the third time I have existed. At other times

:32:48. > :32:51.they could not even get into the room, it was standing room only at

:32:52. > :32:56.Westminster Hall. The television show Desperate Housewives comes to

:32:57. > :33:02.mind, but the valiant WASPI women are far from desperate, they are

:33:03. > :33:06.valiant. This Government does now have to act, I believe. The public

:33:07. > :33:09.are making their voices heard, the Government is on the wrong side of

:33:10. > :33:14.public opinion. It feels like Groundhog Day. It is not only

:33:15. > :33:22.falling on deaf ears but there is a broken record routine coming in when

:33:23. > :33:25.we are told there is no money left. At the same time, we constantly hear

:33:26. > :33:31.we are in a period where economic growth is returning, things are

:33:32. > :33:35.looking grow -- Rosie, the things do not reconcile. We are talking about

:33:36. > :33:40.people who have been hit, everybody says, twice. Double whammy is the

:33:41. > :33:46.phrase that keeps coming up in the e-mails I have received. 1895 and

:33:47. > :33:52.2011. I have heard the rejoinder from opposite that the 1997 Labour

:33:53. > :33:56.Government did not do anything about the 1995 issue, surely the

:33:57. > :33:59.Government at that time, the Conservative Government, the civil

:34:00. > :34:03.servant should have had a work plan in place. If people were not all

:34:04. > :34:07.notified there should have been provision for that to keep

:34:08. > :34:09.happening. But because that Government was presumably saving

:34:10. > :34:16.money on communications or something, it didn't happen. As many

:34:17. > :34:21.have said, we are where we are. I, like many people here, have received

:34:22. > :34:27.many, many representations from different people. Michelle Carlyle,

:34:28. > :34:31.born in 1954, Linda Gregory, born in 1953. People have pointed out that

:34:32. > :34:37.they started work at 15, as one of them said to me, which is probably a

:34:38. > :34:41.good ten years before you did. Their circumstances are different to what

:34:42. > :34:45.happens today. Remember, the Equal Pay Act did not come in until a

:34:46. > :34:51.Labour Government put that in a 1976. These are people who were

:34:52. > :34:56.often ringing up children before free childcare, free nurseries, all

:34:57. > :35:02.those things that Labour governments put in. We need to be sympathetic to

:35:03. > :35:06.their plight. In this debate, people have confused the WASPI petition and

:35:07. > :35:14.the wording of this motion. Nobody is arguing against equality, nobody

:35:15. > :35:19.is saying that there should be company 's compensation back to the

:35:20. > :35:24.levels these people would have had, it is merely asking for transitional

:35:25. > :35:29.agreements to soften the blow. Some others in this campaign have been

:35:30. > :35:34.many macro people like Paul Lewis of BBC's money box, a former

:35:35. > :35:40.constituent of mine, Martin Lewis of money-saving expert. I urge members

:35:41. > :35:43.on the other side to vote with us for transitional arrangements,

:35:44. > :35:44.seeing as so much money has been found down the back of the sofa for

:35:45. > :35:55.so many things. The previous pensions minister in

:35:56. > :36:02.the coalition Steve Webb has admitted people will be hard done

:36:03. > :36:09.by. In the 17 seconds left I will say this great pensions swindle has

:36:10. > :36:13.to end now. Mr Deputy Speaker, I very much welcome the opportunity to

:36:14. > :36:20.make another contribution on this issue. I would like to take this

:36:21. > :36:22.opportunity to pay tribute to the WASPI campaign for continuing to

:36:23. > :36:29.fight for a transitional arrangement that will protect it from the most

:36:30. > :36:34.damaging consequences of the rush. All these women are asking for is

:36:35. > :36:39.fairness and I commend them. This is the fourth time this issue has been

:36:40. > :36:43.debated in this house, it shows the strength of feeling that exists on

:36:44. > :36:48.this issue, exposes the injustice, and highlights the struggles many

:36:49. > :36:52.women face on a daily basis. A lot of the damage was done with the 95

:36:53. > :36:58.act, however the Coalition Government exacerbated the

:36:59. > :37:02.situation. And this government's refusal to correct the situation is

:37:03. > :37:05.political folly. These women have paid into a system or the lives, it

:37:06. > :37:09.is only right that the government steps in to right this wrong for

:37:10. > :37:15.these women. Responding to the motion the minister shamefully chose

:37:16. > :37:20.to repeat the accusation that WASPI are against equalisation. No they

:37:21. > :37:25.are not. The Minister knows this. To use this line in argument again does

:37:26. > :37:28.disservice to this debate, and to the women sitting in the gallery now

:37:29. > :37:31.and watching at home, and a disservice to the struggles these

:37:32. > :37:36.women now face as a result of the rug being pulled from under their

:37:37. > :37:42.feet just when they need it most. I was hoping the Minister would give

:37:43. > :37:52.the WASPI women are better response than the pitiful one given before.

:37:53. > :37:55.Sadly I was wrong. Mr Deputy Speaker, I run 13 surgeries a month

:37:56. > :37:58.and over the last two to three months the majority of constituents

:37:59. > :38:05.attending have raised this very issue. I would like to highlight

:38:06. > :38:10.some of the heartbreaking stories I have heard at the surgeries. Many of

:38:11. > :38:13.these women have been looking forward to having more time for

:38:14. > :38:17.themselves, only to find out with a couple of months notice they would

:38:18. > :38:22.not retire at 60 as they thought. One lady who did not want her name

:38:23. > :38:25.mentioned recently came to see me. She has worked all her life from the

:38:26. > :38:31.age of 17 and built a career for herself which she had to give up in

:38:32. > :38:36.order to care for her husband. She worked part-time and has never been

:38:37. > :38:39.on benefits. She stopped working at 58 because of her health, thinking

:38:40. > :38:44.she would get both her state pension and a small civil service pension at

:38:45. > :38:48.60. She has never received any letters from the DWP and only found

:38:49. > :38:55.out about the changes to the pension through word-of-mouth. Miss Miller

:38:56. > :38:59.also receive no letter. The changes have made an impact on her finances,

:39:00. > :39:05.forcing her to sell her car and her house in order to cut down on her

:39:06. > :39:08.work in the future. She has suffered from a bee which makes it difficult

:39:09. > :39:15.for her to continue working as a teacher. If the minister listening

:39:16. > :39:20.to this? I think you owe Miss Miller courtesy of listening this speech.

:39:21. > :39:24.She will have to work a lot longer than anticipated, she also has

:39:25. > :39:29.caring responsibilities, caring for her mum three days a week. The fact

:39:30. > :39:35.she has to work six years longer means she has six is less to spend

:39:36. > :39:39.with her mum. I challenge the Minister to respond to them and

:39:40. > :39:40.advise what they should do to ease their financial worries given their

:39:41. > :39:46.poor health and financial circumstances. My constituents are

:39:47. > :39:49.watching this debate, WASPI campaigners are watching this

:39:50. > :39:52.debate, the women in the public galleries are watching this debate,

:39:53. > :39:55.we are all waiting for the government to finally wake up to the

:39:56. > :40:03.situation, show some humility and respond appropriately. Thank you Mr

:40:04. > :40:07.Speaker. It has already been said by previous speakers in this debate

:40:08. > :40:12.that pensions are not a benefit, they are a contract, and the

:40:13. > :40:16.government has broken that contract. And if this were done by a private

:40:17. > :40:21.company they would be sued for mis-selling. When the terms of a

:40:22. > :40:24.contract changed there must be notification, actual notification,

:40:25. > :40:29.not Westminster politicians talking to each other, and there must be

:40:30. > :40:33.mitigation when someone is disadvantaged. And in this case the

:40:34. > :40:38.government must take responsibility and correct this. What future for

:40:39. > :40:44.our pensions system if citizens cannot trust government promises

:40:45. > :40:47.that when they pay in they will receive their due out at an agreed

:40:48. > :40:55.time? Do you know what this reminds me of? This reminds me and my

:40:56. > :40:59.constituents of, when you buy a car from a used car salesman, and the

:41:00. > :41:05.car turns out to be dodgy, and you bring it back and the looks at the

:41:06. > :41:10.car, scratches his head and says, you know, I'd really like to help

:41:11. > :41:14.you out but I just can't. We are told that the government will not

:41:15. > :41:18.move on this issue to put an appropriate transitional measure in.

:41:19. > :41:22.But the greater cost of not asking Ellie acting is the cost of

:41:23. > :41:26.betraying all the women, many of whom spent a lifetime in low pay

:41:27. > :41:32.literally kicking their pockets and further alienating people from the

:41:33. > :41:37.cosy Westminster establishment. We are told that money for transitional

:41:38. > :41:41.arrangements cannot be found. Well, Mr chair, I suspect that if

:41:42. > :41:48.companies like Google paid their taxes, the government would find it

:41:49. > :41:53.had more money in their pot. Choices, choices, politics is

:41:54. > :41:57.nothing if it is not about choices. If the government does not act on

:41:58. > :42:02.this issue then it has no alternative but to hang its head in

:42:03. > :42:06.shame. The WASPI campaigners are calling for a review into the way

:42:07. > :42:11.changes to the state pension age were implemented under the 1995 and

:42:12. > :42:16.2011 pensions act. What's wrong with that? Other European governments

:42:17. > :42:22.have brought in pension equalisation arrangements without the distress,

:42:23. > :42:26.chaos caused by Discover meant as it tries to pick women's pockets, and

:42:27. > :42:32.why is this? -- caused by this government. Other European

:42:33. > :42:40.governments have not made a Horlicks of it, this is clock up and in

:42:41. > :42:46.concert and is written large. I am sick of them boosting of a flat rate

:42:47. > :42:51.pension of ?165 per week, apart from the fact that is utterly irrelevant

:42:52. > :42:54.to this debate, the fact is, so many people, when they do reach pension

:42:55. > :42:59.age, will receive much, much less than this, because they will not

:43:00. > :43:03.have paid enough National Insurance. And it is those in the private

:43:04. > :43:08.sector, the low paid, those earning less than around ?15,000 per year

:43:09. > :43:14.who will be hit hardest. And these people are much more likely to be

:43:15. > :43:17.female than male. What is required is an independent commission to

:43:18. > :43:22.prevent further gender inequalities and ensure we can get a fair

:43:23. > :43:25.universal pension system that looks at injustice is coming down the

:43:26. > :43:28.track in the form of the flat rate pension which will leave many of

:43:29. > :43:33.those in low pay on lower pensions than they otherwise would have

:43:34. > :43:36.benefited from. So far the government has not been listening to

:43:37. > :43:39.the WASPI campaigners, they've not been listening to the vote is taken

:43:40. > :43:47.in this house, and I urged them to do so. What is required here is

:43:48. > :43:53.fairness and natural justice, and it really is time the government held

:43:54. > :44:00.its head up and faced these head on. Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker. This is

:44:01. > :44:04.the fourth WASPI transition debate as spoken in, I must admit it's hard

:44:05. > :44:09.to find something new to say, but I noticed the Minister has had the

:44:10. > :44:13.same problem. That performance at the dispatch box was a disgrace. He

:44:14. > :44:17.said he would talk about discretion arrangements and he didn't come here

:44:18. > :44:21.avoided the issue the whole time, took interventions and fudged the

:44:22. > :44:28.whole issue. Can I also remind the Minister of a suggestion he made

:44:29. > :44:31.previously, he said women could make use of pension freedoms to help

:44:32. > :44:36.themselves bridge the gap to transition to state pension age. For

:44:37. > :44:39.me that shows that the minister does not understand that women are less

:44:40. > :44:43.likely to have pensions and the pensions they do have are more

:44:44. > :44:50.likely to be low in value. To suggest they should blow the savings

:44:51. > :44:54.as a medial measure instead of the government helping out is crazy and

:44:55. > :44:57.irresponsible. Can I also make the minister aware of another issue

:44:58. > :45:01.which is ongoing at the moment? Which could camp ground matters and

:45:02. > :45:13.affect peoples choice. -- compound matters. That is the exit cap. This

:45:14. > :45:16.will further limit choice of people. The ?95,000 cap will not affect the

:45:17. > :45:24.so-called fat cats but in many cases long serving lower paid workers. The

:45:25. > :45:27.cap in its current format covers pension funds which an employer

:45:28. > :45:33.requires to pay for early and in health retirement. This means people

:45:34. > :45:36.who take ill health retirement might have the money due to them capped

:45:37. > :45:45.because of this government, which compounds matters. At exit cap also

:45:46. > :45:50.prevents operating schemes such as teacher first, which allows higher

:45:51. > :45:54.paid experienced teachers retirement, which allows younger

:45:55. > :45:56.teachers to be employed, saving the taxpayer money overall and creating

:45:57. > :46:04.jobs follow younger teachers. Combine this cap, it will be a bad

:46:05. > :46:10.deal for individuals, local authorities, and the taxpayer

:46:11. > :46:15.overall. Another potential impact of increasing the state pension age is

:46:16. > :46:20.making more women financially dependent on male partners. That's

:46:21. > :46:25.bad for their personal esteem, bad relationships, potentially damaging

:46:26. > :46:31.if there are domestic abuse cases and women find themselves in

:46:32. > :46:35.financial trouble because of this. Women are having to undergo stress,

:46:36. > :46:39.internal concern because of the bombshell dropped on them, that's

:46:40. > :46:43.another possible consequence. That's why this government, instead of

:46:44. > :46:48.ignoring what is going on, should be thinking about the consequences and

:46:49. > :46:54.doing something about it. They hide behind this ?30 billion estimate.

:46:55. > :46:58.People today are asking for protection arrangements. I can tell

:46:59. > :47:04.you the ?30 million can be found to do a full reversal. This government

:47:05. > :47:13.found an extra ?60 million to spend in the defence review to add to

:47:14. > :47:18.Trident. They have allocated ?12 million for the right to buy for

:47:19. > :47:22.social housing. They can introduce a mansion tax, reverse inheritance

:47:23. > :47:27.tax, stop adding more people into that other place, these are all

:47:28. > :47:39.choices. Choices to spend more money or subsidise other cases. The

:47:40. > :47:43.government has already lost court cases regarding the bedroom tax.

:47:44. > :47:47.There is a great chance they will lose another court case because of

:47:48. > :47:52.the unfairness of this measure. It has a ready been said it is a

:47:53. > :47:57.complete breach-of-contract. So please, I asked the Minister to take

:47:58. > :48:06.account of this and put into place transitional arrangements. Thank you

:48:07. > :48:11.Mr Deputy Speaker. I'm pleased to finally be able to take part in this

:48:12. > :48:16.debate on transitional state pension arrangements. As has been pointed

:48:17. > :48:21.out, we've had many debates recently on the subject of women's state

:48:22. > :48:26.pension age and equality. But now we are actually talking about practical

:48:27. > :48:29.solutions, and we are seriously considering transitional

:48:30. > :48:36.arrangements. And remember, this is transition, it's not forever, and it

:48:37. > :48:38.won't cost ?30 billion or ?39 billion or whatever all the figures

:48:39. > :48:45.have been floating around this chamber. Transitional payments will

:48:46. > :48:50.help all those women born in the 1950s who have suffered a double

:48:51. > :48:57.whammy from both the 1995 and the 2011 pension acts. Those women who

:48:58. > :49:03.have e-mailed, written, phoned, Facebook, tweeted me and fellow MPs

:49:04. > :49:08.upon seeing their plans for retirement disintegrate. The basic

:49:09. > :49:13.issue here is fairness. And all we're asking for is for the women

:49:14. > :49:16.affected to fairly treated. This particular group of women has not

:49:17. > :49:21.been communicated with properly. Many of them tell me that they

:49:22. > :49:25.either did not receive letters or that the letters they did receive

:49:26. > :49:29.were unclear. And contrary to the view held by some in this chamber,

:49:30. > :49:35.the women against state pension in equality campaign is not asking to

:49:36. > :49:40.go back to receiving state pensions at 60. What they are asking for is

:49:41. > :49:43.simply fair treatment. These are women who work part-time, who were

:49:44. > :49:47.not even eligible for their occupational pension schemes when

:49:48. > :49:52.they started work. These are women who gave up work to bring up

:49:53. > :49:56.children, effecting their personal occupational pension if they were

:49:57. > :50:00.lucky to have one. These are women who have worked in difficult

:50:01. > :50:06.conditions, many of whom have had to retire early because of ill health.

:50:07. > :50:10.These are women who, as well as bringing up children, are now

:50:11. > :50:15.shouldering the burden of caring for elderly relatives in their later

:50:16. > :50:19.lives. These women have all been through the doors of my surgeries in

:50:20. > :50:25.my constituency, and I'm sure the story is familiar to all honourable

:50:26. > :50:28.and Right Honourable members. My constituents frequently urge me to

:50:29. > :50:33.take this argument to the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. I

:50:34. > :50:37.have extreme difficulty doing this, as in the many debates we've had on

:50:38. > :50:42.this subject, he has not attended a single one.

:50:43. > :50:51.Jackie, one of my constituents, introduced herself to me as June 54

:50:52. > :50:57.and furious. She made a very valid point that denying her access to her

:50:58. > :51:00.state pension until she is 66 also denies her entitlement to

:51:01. > :51:06.concessionary travel and to the Winter fuel allowance. Jackie

:51:07. > :51:10.started work in 1971, but had to take early retirement from the

:51:11. > :51:15.police service in order to care for an elderly relative. My honourable

:51:16. > :51:21.friend the shadows that has made six helpful suggestions as to how fair

:51:22. > :51:25.transition may be put in place to help women like Jackie -- my

:51:26. > :51:29.honourable friend, the Shadow Secretary of State. Let's stop

:51:30. > :51:34.prevaricating, I await the Minister's response to these

:51:35. > :51:39.suggestions which has been supported by many on his side of the house.

:51:40. > :51:48.Let's help turn Jackie from June 54 and furious to June 54 and finally

:51:49. > :51:53.fairly transitioned. Mark Durkan. Thank you, Mr Deputy

:51:54. > :51:59.Speaker. Like others, I regret that much of the debate at the dispatch

:52:00. > :52:03.botched... Box was about fixing the blame rather than fixing the

:52:04. > :52:06.problem, that is the honourable member for Pontypridd put forward a

:52:07. > :52:12.six-pack of options which he rightly asked the Government to put forward.

:52:13. > :52:16.Let's remember the salient point of this motion is called on the

:52:17. > :52:19.Government to bring forward proposals for transitional

:52:20. > :52:23.arrangements for women and firstly affected by the acceleration of the

:52:24. > :52:28.increase in state pension age. -- add firstly affected. It is logical

:52:29. > :52:32.and reasonable, that is why the member for Worthing East is prepared

:52:33. > :52:37.to supported. I would ask them of his colleagues to join them, not

:52:38. > :52:41.least ones who fought violently and valiantly to restore things for the

:52:42. > :52:46.Equitable Life members and called on the taxpayer to make sure they were

:52:47. > :52:50.supported and restored to some position of equivalence and use

:52:51. > :52:55.taxpayers' money. If people were prepared to fight for Equitable

:52:56. > :52:59.Life, they should not be indifferent to the WASPI women aren't what they

:53:00. > :53:04.face. We should be responding to them with justice. It is not just

:53:05. > :53:08.the issue of a breach of trust and breach-of-contract, we have the

:53:09. > :53:11.question of moral hazard. If Parliament will say, we can be quite

:53:12. > :53:17.capricious with state pension, we send out a pension... Signal to

:53:18. > :53:21.private pension providers that they can do what they want and we will

:53:22. > :53:26.not be able to reprimand or interfere, we send out a dangerous

:53:27. > :53:29.single to the people we are encouraging to have confidence in

:53:30. > :53:32.show responsibility in terms of pension planning, that's what

:53:33. > :53:36.happens to their mother shows that even when you make provision for

:53:37. > :53:40.pensions you do not even get what you thought, they change the rules

:53:41. > :53:45.on you, so don't bother about pensions, just see what you get.

:53:46. > :53:49.We need to remember that we should not be offering the mixture of

:53:50. > :53:53.conceit and deceit that we were hearing from some of the honourable

:53:54. > :53:57.members opposite. We were told by the honourable member for Bexhill

:53:58. > :54:02.and Battle that this matter is settled and can't be touched,

:54:03. > :54:07.because it was settled when? By Parliament in 2011, so it is settled

:54:08. > :54:12.and we cannot touch it. They are telling us about Parliamentary

:54:13. > :54:16.sovereignty! They are saying we want is standard to the EU but are hiding

:54:17. > :54:21.behind a completely false explanation of EU rules and

:54:22. > :54:24.requirements in defence of this intentional injustice visited upon

:54:25. > :54:29.these women. It is not just a case of what the honourable member says a

:54:30. > :54:34.line has to be drawn somewhere. These are not just some haphazard

:54:35. > :54:38.victims of a drive-by cut in the name of austerity, they have been

:54:39. > :54:42.carefully selected and calculated as the victims. Why? Because they have

:54:43. > :54:46.been used to inequality and injustice all of their life, they

:54:47. > :54:50.have received inequality in terms of gender pay gap is, being denied

:54:51. > :54:56.access to second pensions at a time when male colleagues given access.

:54:57. > :55:00.The name now seems to be, oh, give them one more twist of injustice in