25/02/2016

:00:00. > :00:00.progress. I think as far as rural committees that do not have access

:00:00. > :00:09.to high-speed broadband and modern communications, we continue to have

:00:10. > :00:15.a job to do. Two weeks ago, the Leader of the House was unable to

:00:16. > :00:23.answer if legislation to ratify the convention citing the Queen's

:00:24. > :00:28.Speech. Would he be able to tell us if the Government would still be

:00:29. > :00:32.able to ratify this convention that aids the protection of women or are

:00:33. > :00:35.there plans to suspend that also? I have no doubt that of the people of

:00:36. > :00:38.this country vote to leave the European Union, we will continue to

:00:39. > :00:41.play a very active role in the international bodies of which we are

:00:42. > :00:45.part, very active role in the international community as a whole.

:00:46. > :00:48.Whatever happens in the future of this country, we will always be

:00:49. > :00:55.internationalist and always will do right thing by this country on the

:00:56. > :00:58.international stage. The incompetent Tory Labour administration the

:00:59. > :01:02.coalition of Stirling Council will present its budget this evening.

:01:03. > :01:06.That will include savage cuts to social care across the Stirling

:01:07. > :01:08.area. Government pressure has been put on local Government financed by

:01:09. > :01:12.the austerity agenda of his Government and welfare reforms.

:01:13. > :01:18.Could we have a debate on this urgent matter? Well, of course, the

:01:19. > :01:23.overall framework for economic success and for funding in Scotland

:01:24. > :01:26.rests with the SNP. The interesting thing about this week with the

:01:27. > :01:30.fiscal framework is they are now going to have to take decisions in

:01:31. > :01:34.the future about the right balance between lower taxes, public spending

:01:35. > :01:40.and they will find it a whole lot more difficult than they think.

:01:41. > :01:47.Farmers in my constituency tell me that the basic payment scheme, as

:01:48. > :01:51.delivered late, is somewhat chaotic. Can we have a statement from the

:01:52. > :01:58.relevant Secretary of State about the performance of the ruble

:01:59. > :02:02.payments agency? -- rural payments agency? I am happy to draw his

:02:03. > :02:05.concerns to the Secretary of State and if you would like to write with

:02:06. > :02:09.some more specific examples, it makes it easier for ministers to

:02:10. > :02:16.look at what is going wrong. Could we have a debate or a statement on

:02:17. > :02:21.EDM 1138 regarding the anti-lobbying or gagging Clause, which was

:02:22. > :02:26.announced that the Cabinet office just before recess with little or no

:02:27. > :02:28.scrutiny or consultation. It threatens the ability of

:02:29. > :02:32.organisations and charities in receipt of Government grants from

:02:33. > :02:37.speaking out campaigning either for or against Government policy and it

:02:38. > :02:40.be scrapped immediately. Mr Speaker, the honourable gentleman has do

:02:41. > :02:44.understand that in Government, we find on a number of occasions bodies

:02:45. > :02:47.that are being funded by us are using the money that we are

:02:48. > :02:51.providing from the taxpayer to lobby us. That makes no sense at all. The

:02:52. > :02:54.Cabinet Office is trying to deliver sensible regime and when it comes

:02:55. > :03:01.before this House, he will be able to debated the way he wishes. --

:03:02. > :03:07.debate it. Point of order, Joanna Cherry. On a point of order, I would

:03:08. > :03:10.like to seek your assistance in relation to a matter of some concern

:03:11. > :03:15.to me. It has been brought to my attention that on Monday the 22nd,

:03:16. > :03:18.out with my presence and without notifying me in advance, the

:03:19. > :03:20.honourable member for South Leicestershire raised what he

:03:21. > :03:25.described as a point of order during which he said I had misled the

:03:26. > :03:27.House. I should make it clear that notwithstanding his conduct, I have

:03:28. > :03:32.afforded him the courtesy of notifying him I would be raising

:03:33. > :03:35.this point of order today. On Monday afternoon, I asked the Prime

:03:36. > :03:38.Minister what provision he would make it a British sovereignty bill

:03:39. > :03:42.to recognise the principle of unlimited sovereignty of Parliament

:03:43. > :03:46.is a distinctive English principle that has no counterpart in Scottish

:03:47. > :03:50.constitutional law. In the last part of that question I was directly

:03:51. > :03:56.quoting the words of a distinguished and no discrete that late deceased

:03:57. > :04:02.Scottish judge in a very well known case from 1953 -- and now deceased.

:04:03. > :04:05.The judge was my comments were an expression of opinion, not essential

:04:06. > :04:09.to the decision and therefore not legally binding as a precedent, but

:04:10. > :04:16.they were an expression of his loan at opinion and had been given way to

:04:17. > :04:20.in the years that followed. Many other distinguished Scottish jurists

:04:21. > :04:23.hold this view and as recently in 2005 in Jackson against the Attorney

:04:24. > :04:28.General, Lord Hope of Craighead said in the Lords that Parliamentary is

:04:29. > :04:33.of intrigue is an English principle -- sovereignty is an English

:04:34. > :04:38.principle derived from Coke and Blackstone. Is perfectly okayed for

:04:39. > :04:41.the honourable member of South Leicestershire to disagree with me,

:04:42. > :04:44.particularly if he can about his position but what is not in order is

:04:45. > :04:48.for him to say I have misled the House when I had taken trouble to

:04:49. > :04:52.use my words carefully and am quoting a very well-known diktats

:04:53. > :04:56.from Scots law. Mr Speaker will be aware it is a matter of particular

:04:57. > :04:59.concern to the given my professional background that I should not be

:05:00. > :05:04.represented have having misled the House and I would be very keen if

:05:05. > :05:09.the Speaker could give me assistance in putting the record straight. I am

:05:10. > :05:12.extremely grateful for the honourable and learning lady for

:05:13. > :05:15.notice of her point of order for which she has informed the House,

:05:16. > :05:18.she has notified the honourable gentleman, the Member for South

:05:19. > :05:25.Leicestershire. By the way, for the avoidance of doubt, I have do decide

:05:26. > :05:29.what is and isn't in order, that is simply the constitutional position.

:05:30. > :05:38.I confirm that members should indeed in former colleague of an intention

:05:39. > :05:42.to refer to him or her. The point of order raised on Monday by the

:05:43. > :05:46.honourable gentleman the Member for South Leicestershire was, I think I

:05:47. > :05:54.can so describe it, moderately orderly in form. Although as I

:05:55. > :06:00.noted, it was not orderly in content, for one quite simple and

:06:01. > :06:09.straightforward reason. It was not a point of order. As a mere politics

:06:10. > :06:15.graduate, I do not myself intend to adjudicate between two learned

:06:16. > :06:24.members of the House. And I know that the honourable and learned Lady

:06:25. > :06:31.is a distinguished QC, on over to addict by senior judicial figures,

:06:32. > :06:36.and I will not give a view from the Chair. The honourable and learned

:06:37. > :06:40.lady has made her point with her characteristic force and eloquence.

:06:41. > :06:49.Might I suggest that we leave it there? Point of order, Mr Chris law.

:06:50. > :06:52.The point of order regarding rules of behaviour and courtesies in this

:06:53. > :06:56.House. During prime ministers questions yesterday, when junior

:06:57. > :06:59.doctors are looking at yet another strike in England and Scotland may

:07:00. > :07:04.be dragged out of unwillingly or unfairly based on the polls with

:07:05. > :07:08.regards to the Brexit, we had this spat between the Prime Minister and

:07:09. > :07:13.the Leader of the Opposition regarding mothers opinions and

:07:14. > :07:19.behaviour and dress code but we have been told off for clapping in this

:07:20. > :07:21.House. The reason is we have had not only a number of complaints from

:07:22. > :07:26.constituents is through e-mail and phone calls and I wanted to ask your

:07:27. > :07:29.advice on what the rules of behaviour should be and how they

:07:30. > :07:32.should be conducted and whether the Prime Minister should be giving a

:07:33. > :07:37.full and proper apology to this House for his conduct. I am grateful

:07:38. > :07:40.to the honourable gentleman for his point of order. There is an

:07:41. > :07:46.important distinction here between the content of what is said and the

:07:47. > :07:49.way in which, more widely, honourable and right Honourable

:07:50. > :07:54.members behave. In respect of the first, might I suggest to the

:07:55. > :08:01.honourable gentleman that it would not be right or in any way favoured

:08:02. > :08:06.by the House, if the Chair, as a matter of regular course, were to

:08:07. > :08:12.try and intervene to prevent members expressing their own views with such

:08:13. > :08:17.examples or references to people outside of the House or members of

:08:18. > :08:23.their families, as they think fit. I shouldn't get involved in that and

:08:24. > :08:27.the House wouldn't want me to do so. However, in respect of the second

:08:28. > :08:31.part of the honourable gentleman's point of order, that is to say the

:08:32. > :08:38.overall notion of good behaviour, perhaps I can just repeat what I

:08:39. > :08:45.have many times said - the public expect us all would want us at any

:08:46. > :08:50.rate to conduct our arguments robustly and doubtless with passion,

:08:51. > :09:00.but with respect for the fact that different opinions exist. Loud

:09:01. > :09:06.heckling and organised barracking are widely deprecated outside of

:09:07. > :09:12.this House. The notion that there is something clever about it and that

:09:13. > :09:16.it is all very good fun seems to me to be completely perverse and I

:09:17. > :09:21.would very politely say, with no reference to any particular

:09:22. > :09:27.honourable member, perhaps all honourable members, before indulging

:09:28. > :09:32.in noisy heckling, barracking or ad hominem abuse would ask themselves

:09:33. > :09:39.this - would I be content for my behaviour to be seen and heard by my

:09:40. > :09:45.constituents? It is our constituents that we are here to serve. The point

:09:46. > :09:54.is so blindingly obvious that only a very clever and sophisticated person

:09:55. > :09:57.could fail to see it. Perhaps we can leave a matter therefore today but

:09:58. > :10:00.I'm genuinely grateful to the honourable gentleman and I rather

:10:01. > :10:06.suspect the flurry of e-mails that he might have received about conduct

:10:07. > :10:11.will not be an isolated case. I get quite a lot in my own office.

:10:12. > :10:17.Perhaps we can now come to the general debate on European fears, I

:10:18. > :10:21.call the Foreign Secretary, Mr Philip Hammond -- European affairs.

:10:22. > :10:26.In just under four months' time, the British people will face a choice,

:10:27. > :10:30.one that has been denied to them for many years, that we pledges to give

:10:31. > :10:37.them in our election manifesto and we are now delivering -- pledged. A

:10:38. > :10:40.choice that will have profound consequences to this country for a

:10:41. > :10:43.generation or more, whether to remain in the European Union on the

:10:44. > :10:47.basis of the deal negotiated by the Prime Minister or to leave. The last

:10:48. > :10:52.time the British people were consulted on this question 40 years

:10:53. > :10:59.ago, the answer was a clear yes, but much has changed in the 40 years and

:11:00. > :11:02.the fact that we are holding this referendum there is recognition of a

:11:03. > :11:08.growing unease at the direction in which the EU has evolved, a growing

:11:09. > :11:14.sense that Europe was pursuing a goal that Britain did not share, and

:11:15. > :11:19.that we risked being dragged into a level of political integration for

:11:20. > :11:24.which few in Britain have any appetite. Mr Speaker, for 25 years,

:11:25. > :11:28.I have shared that sense of unease. I have always considered myself a

:11:29. > :11:33.sceptic and I consider myself a sceptic today. Like most people in

:11:34. > :11:38.Britain, I don't feel any warmth or affection for the EU or its

:11:39. > :11:43.institutions. I am irritated by the tone of much of what I hear coming

:11:44. > :11:48.from Brussels and instinctively suspicious of anything that sounds

:11:49. > :11:55.like a grand project. But we do not live in some ideal world, we live in

:11:56. > :11:59.the real world and the EU is part of that real world and the question

:12:00. > :12:03.that we have to answer is not do we like it, the question we have to

:12:04. > :12:09.answer is whether we are stronger, safer and better off in the EU

:12:10. > :12:12.rather than out of it. Stronger because our global influence is

:12:13. > :12:16.enhanced by being a leading member of the world's largest trading

:12:17. > :12:19.block. Safer because working together with EU partners

:12:20. > :12:24.strengthens our defences against organised crime and terrorism.

:12:25. > :12:29.Better off because Britain benefits from having a domestic market of 500

:12:30. > :12:32.million consumers and the clout that a quarter of the will's GDP gives

:12:33. > :12:43.the EU in negotiating trade deals. I am grateful. The Prime Minister

:12:44. > :12:49.said in recent days that his view of the European Union's impact on our

:12:50. > :12:55.collective security had changed over the years because of his experience

:12:56. > :12:59.as Prime Minister. The Foreign Secretary would probably be thought

:13:00. > :13:05.of by many people as having a Eurosceptic background. Has his

:13:06. > :13:11.experience as Foreign Secretary also changed the balance of his view on

:13:12. > :13:20.the European Union's impact on our collective security? Yes, it has. I

:13:21. > :13:26.have seen in practice how working together with EU partners is an

:13:27. > :13:32.important tool in our armoury. The EU will never replace the security

:13:33. > :13:38.benefit that we get from Nato. It does a different thing. We have seen

:13:39. > :13:44.in the conflict over Ukraine that economic sanctions, which is the

:13:45. > :13:51.only practical weapon available to us, in responding to a challenge

:13:52. > :13:58.from Russia, that weapon properly honed and properly used will prove

:13:59. > :14:05.to be a very important weapon in our armoury against Russian aggression.

:14:06. > :14:07.This government has quite rightly been critical of previous

:14:08. > :14:10.governments for not having an independent audit of the national

:14:11. > :14:24.finances. A very discordant noise, nothing

:14:25. > :14:37.like as mellifluous as the voice of the honourable member, to whom I

:14:38. > :14:40.know he will be apologising. We have set up the Office for Budget

:14:41. > :14:44.Responsibility, and the Foreign Secretary is doing a cost benefit

:14:45. > :14:48.analysis of this issue. Why doesn't the government institute an

:14:49. > :14:55.independent study with a genuinely independent body, and go into some

:14:56. > :15:01.detail about what would be the effect of a Brexit on GDP. I think

:15:02. > :15:10.the problem with the challenge that he presents is that we simply do not

:15:11. > :15:17.know what the counter fact Joe Willis. We do not know what --

:15:18. > :15:24.counterfactual is. We do not know whether a deal could be made, we do

:15:25. > :15:27.not know what free trade agreements could be negotiated with other

:15:28. > :15:31.parties and we do not know on what timescale bulls could be achieved.

:15:32. > :15:35.We do not know what damage would even to our economy in the meantime.

:15:36. > :15:39.I fear that the kind of objective analysis that my honourable friend

:15:40. > :15:47.is seeking might be difficult to achieve. I will give way. I am very

:15:48. > :15:52.grateful to the Foreign Secretary. He is advancing the case of the

:15:53. > :15:56.benefit of Britain's membership of the European Union. He may like to

:15:57. > :15:59.hear the verdict from Britain's manufacturing industry. From

:16:00. > :16:04.yesterday the employers Federation, I took part in a debate of the

:16:05. > :16:15.senior member of the call to Leave campaign, and at the end of which

:16:16. > :16:21.800 of the UK's companies voted 83% to stay in the European Union. I am

:16:22. > :16:27.not surprised by the figure that my honourable friend quoted because in

:16:28. > :16:32.the world of manufacturing, where manufacturing supply chains at

:16:33. > :16:36.increasingly complex and internationalised, the operation of

:16:37. > :16:42.the customers union will be increasingly important to the

:16:43. > :16:47.competitiveness of British businesses, and there are

:16:48. > :16:51.substantive reasons that business can see for remaining in the

:16:52. > :16:55.European Union. But there is another reason over and above. Business

:16:56. > :17:00.hates uncertainty, and the one thing which is becoming crystal clear is

:17:01. > :17:04.that whatever the end state, if there was a British X it, whatever

:17:05. > :17:08.the end state might be, for a period of years, maybe many years, there

:17:09. > :17:16.would be very significant uncertainty which would act as a

:17:17. > :17:19.chilling effect on investment, job creation and business confidence in

:17:20. > :17:27.the United Kingdom. I will take one more intervention then I must move

:17:28. > :17:32.on. I am very grateful. I appreciate your just a couple of minutes into

:17:33. > :17:35.the speech, but in the opening minute we heard a series of negative

:17:36. > :17:39.words used to describe our relationship with the European

:17:40. > :17:43.Union, suspicious, sceptical, and I do wonder what our friends in France

:17:44. > :17:50.and Germany might be thinking watching this debate, that someone

:17:51. > :17:59.who is apparently in favour is using such language. Is this the type of

:18:00. > :18:04.debate we can expect? I think it is important that our friends and

:18:05. > :18:08.partners in Europe understand, and I say this to my colleagues regularly,

:18:09. > :18:15.that for the great majority of people in this country, there is no

:18:16. > :18:20.passion about European vision. We find in some European countries

:18:21. > :18:24.genuine passion for the idea of Europe. That is not the British way.

:18:25. > :18:26.There are lots of people in this country that believes we should

:18:27. > :18:30.remain in the European Union because it is good for Britain and the

:18:31. > :18:34.economy, because we are stronger, safer and better. That is not the

:18:35. > :18:40.same as being passionately attached to some vision of a European future.

:18:41. > :18:46.I am going to make a little progress if my friends will allow me. The

:18:47. > :18:50.Prime Minister's pledge was to engage in a series of reforms with

:18:51. > :18:54.our partners in Europe to get the EU back contract and change the terms

:18:55. > :18:57.of membership to protect our interests, then to put the question

:18:58. > :19:03.to the British people. He has delivered on that. I will give way

:19:04. > :19:10.in a moment. So the question is whether to stick with what we know,

:19:11. > :19:14.bank the games that the Prime Minister brought back from Brussels,

:19:15. > :19:19.and fight from the inside for reform, or take a leap into the

:19:20. > :19:23.dark. For me the answer is clear. I am a sceptic who will vote with my

:19:24. > :19:29.head to remain, because I know in my heart it is what is right, best for

:19:30. > :19:34.Britain. I will give way. I am grateful. I share his view that what

:19:35. > :19:38.the Prime Minister has returned with is better than what we had before.

:19:39. > :19:42.But can he say something about the legal status of that agreement, and

:19:43. > :19:47.in particular the assertion by the Lord Chancellor that it is not

:19:48. > :19:50.legally binding? I respect the fact that the Lord Chancellor has a

:19:51. > :19:56.different view from the Prime Minister, but how can his vision be

:19:57. > :19:59.tenable as a senior legal Minister for the government, arguing that the

:20:00. > :20:05.deal is not legally binding when the Downing Street position is the

:20:06. > :20:08.precise opposite. That position is untenable, and Cabinet

:20:09. > :20:13.responsibility has been stretched too far. Big principle of collective

:20:14. > :20:17.responsibility has been suspended to allow ministers to express a

:20:18. > :20:22.different opinion from that of the government. At our position is

:20:23. > :20:28.clear. This is a legally binding agreement, deposited yesterday,

:20:29. > :20:32.registered yesterday at the United Nations as a treaty. The

:20:33. > :20:38.overwhelming majority of qualified legal opinion recognises that this

:20:39. > :20:42.is a legally binding international law decision. I will give way to my

:20:43. > :20:49.honourable friend then I must make progress. I am most grateful. Could

:20:50. > :20:55.he explain to us what effect actually registering the document

:20:56. > :20:59.the UN has, what effect does it have, and on what basis does he say

:21:00. > :21:03.that it is legally binding? I am not a lawyer, so it is not about what

:21:04. > :21:08.basis I say it is legally binding but there has been a plethora of

:21:09. > :21:13.qualified legal opinion supporting the view that this is a legally

:21:14. > :21:19.binding decision. Registering it at the United Nations records it as a

:21:20. > :21:25.treaty status international law obligation, and that document will

:21:26. > :21:30.be taken into account by the European Court of Justice. Its own

:21:31. > :21:37.decisions in a case have established it must have regard to interpreted

:21:38. > :21:39.as decisions by heads of state and government, and the government

:21:40. > :21:45.itself makes clear that it is legally binding. I am going to make

:21:46. > :21:49.a little progress. I want to recall just what we set out to achieve and

:21:50. > :21:55.what has been delivered. First, we set out to protect British jobs and

:21:56. > :22:00.ensure a level playing field in Europe for British business because

:22:01. > :22:04.the creation of the Eurozone and the greater level of coordination needed

:22:05. > :22:09.between Eurozone countries created a real risk that non-Eurozone

:22:10. > :22:13.countries would either be dragged into integration that we do not need

:22:14. > :22:17.or want, or that businesses with Discover discrimination because of

:22:18. > :22:20.our decision to retain our own currency. So alongside the crucial

:22:21. > :22:26.exemption of steps further integration, we needed to negotiate

:22:27. > :22:30.clear safeguards for the pound, exemption of British taxpayers from

:22:31. > :22:34.eurozone pay-outs, protection against discrimination from

:22:35. > :22:37.Britain's world leading financial services industry, a clear role from

:22:38. > :22:42.the Bank of England and a clear commitment that we will continue to

:22:43. > :22:50.have a fool said in the single market while not being part of the

:22:51. > :22:53.single currency. -- full. This delivers all these demands in a

:22:54. > :22:59.legal and binding agreement, underpinned by all EU member states

:23:00. > :23:02.to enshrine the safeguards in treaty change. I thought my honourable

:23:03. > :23:10.friend would take his cue from the use of the words legally binding

:23:11. > :23:14.again! I am grateful, but what he is not doing is using the other words

:23:15. > :23:23.which are also part of this package, legally binding and irreversible. As

:23:24. > :23:27.he knows, that is a highly contentious question on which it is

:23:28. > :23:32.clear from the evidence that has been received and indeed from the

:23:33. > :23:38.European scrutiny committee's own report, that this is not

:23:39. > :23:45.irreversible. I have to disagree with my honourable friend. The

:23:46. > :23:48.document, the decision is irreversible, unless Britain chooses

:23:49. > :23:54.it to be reversed, because it could only be reversed by all 28 member

:23:55. > :23:58.states agreeing. I can assure him, certainly as long as this government

:23:59. > :24:07.is in office, Britain will never readily to that happening. Does he

:24:08. > :24:13.agree with me that the interview this morning on the BBC, with the

:24:14. > :24:19.former prime minister was very useful indeed, because he believes

:24:20. > :24:23.that the number of opt outs with Denmark are based on the same type

:24:24. > :24:28.of legal basis and they have not been reversed in the years that they

:24:29. > :24:32.have been in place? She is right. The Danish agreement has been in

:24:33. > :24:40.place for 23 years, and continues to serve Denmark well. The second area,

:24:41. > :24:45.I am going to make progress, the second area we set out to address is

:24:46. > :24:48.Europe's impact on competitiveness. What we have achieved is a

:24:49. > :24:55.commitment to completing the European single market in services,

:24:56. > :24:59.a key area for Britain, given the importance of this sector, in

:25:00. > :25:03.digital, and energy to ensure greater competition and lower energy

:25:04. > :25:07.bills, and in capital, ensuring greater access to sources of finance

:25:08. > :25:11.for entrepreneurs. We have also delivered a clear commitment to

:25:12. > :25:14.prioritising international trade agreements with the largest and

:25:15. > :25:19.fastest-growing economies across the globe, with the potential to boost

:25:20. > :25:23.our economy by billions of pounds a year. Agreement to cut the burden of

:25:24. > :25:29.EU regulation on business, with specific targets to be set for key

:25:30. > :25:35.sectors. This builds on a programme of work which the current commission

:25:36. > :25:42.is already undertaking, which has already slashed by 80% regulatory

:25:43. > :25:48.proposals, and bakes the approach into the DNA of the European Union.

:25:49. > :25:52.The third area in which this deal delivers is in ending the abuse of

:25:53. > :25:58.the principal of free movement to work, in order to access the

:25:59. > :26:03.benefits of our welfare system, paid for by a hard-working British

:26:04. > :26:06.taxpayers. We have already ended access to unemployment benefits and

:26:07. > :26:19.social housing for new arrivals, and limited their time in -- to six

:26:20. > :26:22.months. It stops EU nationals from dodging British immigration rules to

:26:23. > :26:27.bring family members from outside the EU to live in Britain. Under

:26:28. > :26:33.this agreement we can apply our rules, including the minimum income

:26:34. > :26:38.rules and the English language competence rules. Attends the

:26:39. > :26:44.unfairness of child benefits at British rates being sent to children

:26:45. > :26:48.in other countries with lower living costs. And it gives us a seven-year

:26:49. > :26:52.emergency brake to ensure that EU migrants will not have full access

:26:53. > :26:57.to in work benefits until they have been in the UK for four years. And

:26:58. > :27:02.selling the perfectly reasonable question, why should people take out

:27:03. > :27:07.when they have not paid in? Under this arrangement, they cannot. No

:27:08. > :27:10.more something for nothing. Taken together this is a package that will

:27:11. > :27:16.address the concerns of the British people around the abuse of the

:27:17. > :27:20.benefit system and erosion of our immigration and controls. On child

:27:21. > :27:24.benefit, will he confirm that it does not meet the promise set out in

:27:25. > :27:30.the Conservative Party manifesto which says, if an EU migrant's child

:27:31. > :27:33.is living abroad, they should receive no child benefit or tax

:27:34. > :27:38.credit, the matter how long they have worked in the UK and no matter

:27:39. > :27:46.how much tax they have paid. That has not been achieved.

:27:47. > :27:52.Mr speak I think what any reasonable person would do is look at the

:27:53. > :27:55.package that has been delivered. From the outset we have been clear

:27:56. > :28:00.that tackling the abuse in the welfare system is about reducing the

:28:01. > :28:04.pull factor that makes Britain a target for inward migrants coming to

:28:05. > :28:08.the UK, because they can get their wages topped up with a variety of

:28:09. > :28:12.benefits. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating and although

:28:13. > :28:16.my honourable friend can pick on a specific part of the package, I

:28:17. > :28:22.think most reasonable people will want to look at the package in the

:28:23. > :28:26.round. I would just like to make edible progress, the fourth area in

:28:27. > :28:30.which this deal delivers concrete change is in protecting us from

:28:31. > :28:34.political integration under the mantra of ever closer union. The

:28:35. > :28:39.British people have never believed in political union and have never

:28:40. > :28:42.wanted it. Now there is a clear and binding legal commitment to a treaty

:28:43. > :28:47.change to ensure that the United Kingdom will never be part of it.

:28:48. > :28:54.That is a crucial change that alters fundamentally the UK's relationship

:28:55. > :28:57.with EU setting out clearly in black and white that the UK destination

:28:58. > :29:06.will be different from the rest the European Union. I'm extremely

:29:07. > :29:10.grateful but to the point on child benefit, it was actually a promise

:29:11. > :29:14.in our manifesto. So how are people going to look at the 2020

:29:15. > :29:19.Conservative manifesto when we promise things when we cannot

:29:20. > :29:23.deliver them? Mr Speaker, the Prime Minister gave a commitment to go to

:29:24. > :29:27.Brussels, to negotiate hard and bring back the very best deal that

:29:28. > :29:31.he could achieve. That is what he has done, I think people will look

:29:32. > :29:35.in the round at the commitments that were made and what has been

:29:36. > :29:45.delivered. And in the end it will be the British people that give their

:29:46. > :29:48.verdict on the package. I give way. He's talking about the opinions of

:29:49. > :29:53.the British people, does he not accept that there is a divergent is

:29:54. > :30:00.across United Kingdom with clear majorities in Scotland in favour of

:30:01. > :30:07.the United -- of being in Europe. I grew up in the Highlands and

:30:08. > :30:11.Islands, and there are roads and bridges that simply would not be

:30:12. > :30:15.built, if it was not for the European Union. There is a lot more

:30:16. > :30:21.sympathy especially among the people in Scotland. Mr Speaker this is a UK

:30:22. > :30:26.wide question and referendum, and I sincerely hope that when the dust is

:30:27. > :30:31.settled and the counting is done, he will discover that a significant

:30:32. > :30:38.majority of people across the United Kingdom believe that Britain is

:30:39. > :30:41.better off stronger and safer inside the United Kingdom. But I had to say

:30:42. > :30:43.to him that I hope that when the debate plays out he has got a

:30:44. > :30:49.stronger Hardiman than they bunged us if you quit to build a road.

:30:50. > :30:55.Because frankly, that is not a sustainable argument across the

:30:56. > :31:00.European Union as a whole. Madam Deputy Speaker I'm going to make

:31:01. > :31:03.some progress if I may, I'm going to make some interventions and if

:31:04. > :31:07.finding so I know I am conscious and heating into the time for the

:31:08. > :31:11.debate. Madam Deputy Speaker we have also set out to strengthen the

:31:12. > :31:16.powers of this Parliament, and of the British people. In the last

:31:17. > :31:20.Parliament, through the 2011 European Union act, we legislate to

:31:21. > :31:23.ensure that no more powers could be handed to Brussels without the

:31:24. > :31:28.explicit consent of the British people in the national referendum.

:31:29. > :31:35.That act introduced a vital check on the one-way ratchet of the trough of

:31:36. > :31:40.flowers, licensed to in Brussels. Shatov transfer of powers. Breaking

:31:41. > :31:47.the ratchet once and for all. To return powers from Brussels back to

:31:48. > :31:50.the national parliaments. The new parliament working together with

:31:51. > :31:54.other national parliaments will be able to block permanently proposed

:31:55. > :32:00.EU legislation that George of them do not want through a red card

:32:01. > :32:06.system. -- that the majority of them. What we signed at The European

:32:07. > :32:10.Council last Friday as I have said is legally holding his button and

:32:11. > :32:17.all and had already been registered as a treaty at the United Nations.

:32:18. > :32:22.Authoritative legal opinion is clear on this point, it cannot be undone

:32:23. > :32:25.without the consent of every single member state without Britain and the

:32:26. > :32:30.agreement commits all member states to changes in due course to the EU

:32:31. > :32:36.treaties to enshrine the protections for Britain has a nonmember of the

:32:37. > :32:41.Eurozone hand to confirm explicitly, that ever closer union does not

:32:42. > :32:45.apply to the UK. I will give way one more time. I thank you to my right

:32:46. > :32:51.honourable friend for giving way comedy phrases and self incredibly

:32:52. > :32:54.carefully. He says quite carefully that the agreement is binding

:32:55. > :33:01.international law, which is not justice your ball, it is not binding

:33:02. > :33:05.in European law where it only has two hard by the Appeal Court of

:33:06. > :33:09.Justice. And it is not irreversible otherwise it could not say in

:33:10. > :33:13.section eight, "The substance of this section will be incorporated

:33:14. > :33:17.into the treaties at the time of the next revision in accordance with the

:33:18. > :33:21.relevant provisions of the treaties and the respective constitutional

:33:22. > :33:25.requirements of the member states". If it requires the respective

:33:26. > :33:28.constitutional treaties of member states, that means that if they are

:33:29. > :33:35.not followed they are not implemented. Mr Speaker, in a

:33:36. > :33:42.decision, the ECJ itself made clear that it had to take account of a

:33:43. > :33:49.decision of this nature. I say to my honourable friend and to others who

:33:50. > :33:53.repeatedly make points about illegally binding nature of these

:33:54. > :33:56.agreements, that we are having a substantive debate about the future

:33:57. > :34:02.of Britain in or out of the European Union. What we have got is a package

:34:03. > :34:06.that has been agreed by all 28 countries, endorsed by the heads of

:34:07. > :34:10.states of governments of all 28 countries. It is not only legally

:34:11. > :34:15.binding, it is a very solemn political commitment and I would

:34:16. > :34:19.advise them to address themselves to the substantive issues that we are

:34:20. > :34:24.debating here today. The substantive issues about Britain's place in the

:34:25. > :34:28.European Union and what the world would look like, from the

:34:29. > :34:36.perspective of a Britain outside of the European Union. I'm very

:34:37. > :34:40.grateful indeed to the Foreign Secretary, for making way. I want to

:34:41. > :34:44.talk about a substantive point he made at the outset, the Prime

:34:45. > :34:48.Minister are claiming that somehow this deal in France is the security

:34:49. > :34:52.of Europe and the I suggest to my right honourable friend that by

:34:53. > :34:57.asserting that the EU has a role in the defence matters of Europe, they

:34:58. > :35:03.are going down and extremely dangerous line, by playing into the

:35:04. > :35:08.hands of those like Mr Junker, who want an EU army, supported also by

:35:09. > :35:12.Chancellor Merkel. And that we face a real risk that Nato is going to be

:35:13. > :35:15.undermined and that the fronds secretary and the Prime Minister

:35:16. > :35:19.should address this issue rather than having a junior spin doctor in

:35:20. > :35:26.number ten twist the arms of senior former military officers to sign a

:35:27. > :35:30.letter to the Daily Telegraph, written by a junior official in

:35:31. > :35:37.number ten to which two of the senior signatories have already

:35:38. > :35:41.resile. My honourable friend who served with me in the Ministry of

:35:42. > :35:50.Defence will know that no one is as alert as I am to the risks of

:35:51. > :35:54.undermining Nato's crucial role in underpinning the defence of Western

:35:55. > :35:57.Europe. We have always been very clear, that any role of the European

:35:58. > :36:05.Union in relation to our defence must be complimentary to hand in no

:36:06. > :36:16.way undermining Nato. But I would remind mile rubble friend, --

:36:17. > :36:23.undermine Nato. That when we took action, to protest British citizens

:36:24. > :36:28.from pirates off Somalia, it was a British Admiral in northwards but it

:36:29. > :36:35.was a European Union mission that carried out the task. We too look to

:36:36. > :36:39.roles where the European Union can augment our security and we have

:36:40. > :36:41.seen that across the piece in organised crime, terrorism,

:36:42. > :36:47.counterterrorism and we see it today. We have seen it over past

:36:48. > :36:55.years. I am going to make a little progressive might honourable friend

:36:56. > :37:00.will allow me. These changes with our existing opt out from the euro,

:37:01. > :37:05.Schengen and other measures give Britain a special status within the

:37:06. > :37:11.EU. Indeed a unique status, one that gives us the best of both worlds. A

:37:12. > :37:16.seat at the table to protect our interests, but a permanent opt out

:37:17. > :37:21.from those areas of the EU which we reject. Out of ever closer union and

:37:22. > :37:27.political integration, out of Schengen, out of the euro, and out

:37:28. > :37:30.of Eurozone bailouts. So this is a significant package, delivering the

:37:31. > :37:35.substantial legally binding and irreversible changes that we

:37:36. > :37:39.promised. But let me be clear, no one is suggesting that it solves all

:37:40. > :37:45.of the problems of the EU. This deal is not the end of the reform of the

:37:46. > :37:52.EU, but it is an important step. On the road. Madam Deputy Speaker in a

:37:53. > :37:55.matter which side of the week run, he will be able at least to agree

:37:56. > :38:02.across the as that this decision will be one of profound significance

:38:03. > :38:12.for the country, it will be eight choice that will determine how

:38:13. > :38:16.trajectory for one decade or more. The government will respect the

:38:17. > :38:20.outcome and there will be no second referendum. The propositions on the

:38:21. > :38:26.ballot paper are clear and I want to be equally clear today, leave means

:38:27. > :38:32.leave. And a vote to leave, will trigger a notice under Article 50,

:38:33. > :38:36.to do otherwise in the event of a vote to leave would represent taken

:38:37. > :38:46.the disregard of the will of the people because no individual, has

:38:47. > :38:52.the right or the power to redefine unilaterally the meaning of the

:38:53. > :38:56.question on the ballot paper. I will give way to the honourable member. I

:38:57. > :38:59.am very grateful to the Foreign Secretary and I think he is right to

:39:00. > :39:07.make it clear that this is a one-time referendum, and the

:39:08. > :39:11.decision is in or out. And if it is out, I think that the British people

:39:12. > :39:17.need to know what it is out to, and doesn't he agree with me that it is

:39:18. > :39:23.about time that the Vote Leave set out precisely what their vision has

:39:24. > :39:26.side of the European Union would be. And -- outside of the Peter Uihlein.

:39:27. > :39:33.I agree with the honourable gentleman. I hope that my remarks

:39:34. > :39:38.would provoke some of my colleagues to put some flesh on the bone to

:39:39. > :39:45.what leaving would mean. I do want to say what the consequences would

:39:46. > :39:50.be to leave the EU and remain. Less than my point first of all and then

:39:51. > :39:56.I will give way. A vote to leave is a vote for an uncertain future. That

:39:57. > :40:02.is a simple fact. That uncertainty would generate immediate negative

:40:03. > :40:06.reaction on financial markets, all market commentators would agree.

:40:07. > :40:09.Indeed the mere possibility of a leave vote will have a chilling

:40:10. > :40:16.effect on business confidence before the referendum and as the honourable

:40:17. > :40:23.gentleman has already suggested we have already had a foretaste of

:40:24. > :40:26.that. A vote to leave would have a fixed two-year time, to negotiate

:40:27. > :40:31.the exit from an future relationship with the EU. We would of course seek

:40:32. > :40:36.to reach agreement with the other 27 member states during that two year

:40:37. > :40:41.period. But in the meantime, we will be able to offer British businesses

:40:42. > :40:47.wanting to invest, no assurance at all about the future access to the

:40:48. > :40:51.EU, and indeed to other markets. We will have nothing to say to Japanese

:40:52. > :40:58.or American or Chinese companies, who come here looking for a bad from

:40:59. > :41:04.which to produce an EU markets. This will truly be a leap in the dark,

:41:05. > :41:07.and the effect would be to put the economy on hold, until the

:41:08. > :41:11.negotiations are complete. And at the end of that two years, there is

:41:12. > :41:17.no guarantee that agreement would have been reached, but our exit

:41:18. > :41:21.would be automatic unless every single one of our member states were

:41:22. > :41:26.to agree to an extension. Of the negotiating period. I give way to my

:41:27. > :41:31.honourable friend. I am grateful to my honourable friend for giving way,

:41:32. > :41:34.is he is rightly drawing attention to the potential impact on our

:41:35. > :41:40.economy, may I just taken back to the issue of security. It was

:41:41. > :41:42.earlier suggested that there would be no adverse consequences on

:41:43. > :41:46.security from us leaving the European Union because we would

:41:47. > :41:53.remain members of Nato. Did my right honourable friend here the remarks

:41:54. > :41:57.of the former Nato Secretary General, who said "If the UK were to

:41:58. > :42:05.leave the European Union, the voice of the UK would be weakened." "I

:42:06. > :42:07.strongly would regret if the UK was to leave the EU, it would have an

:42:08. > :42:21.impact on In the case of Mr Rasmussen, not

:42:22. > :42:25.just a former Secretary General of Nato but also a former prime

:42:26. > :42:30.ministers of Denmark, who can say something about the binding nature

:42:31. > :42:36.of protocols that are made in the Unigate and is. It is important that

:42:37. > :42:39.we acknowledge that security comes in different parts. There is

:42:40. > :42:45.military security and issues about defence but there are also security

:42:46. > :42:50.against organised crime. Security against terrorism. It is very much

:42:51. > :42:58.in the latter two that Nato makes its most important contribution to

:42:59. > :43:08.our overall security. The Foreign Secretary has just invoked Article

:43:09. > :43:11.50, before that happened, would there be a vote in Parliament? And

:43:12. > :43:19.would there be a vote in the Scottish parliament given the impact

:43:20. > :43:24.under the convention? The government's position is that the

:43:25. > :43:30.referendum is an advisory referendum but by making this statement, very

:43:31. > :43:33.clearly now, that the government would regard itself as bound by the

:43:34. > :43:39.decision of the referendum. The government will proceed with serving

:43:40. > :43:45.and Article 15 notice. I understand that is a matter for the government

:43:46. > :43:48.of the United Kingdom. If there are any consequential considerations,

:43:49. > :43:56.they will be considered with the proper constitutional methods. I

:43:57. > :44:00.rather concur with the Right honourable gentleman that before the

:44:01. > :44:04.government can move to any action as a consequence of the referendum, it

:44:05. > :44:10.would be essential for Parliament to debate the matter and for the

:44:11. > :44:15.government receive consent from Parliament on that matter. There is

:44:16. > :44:21.no obligation to go for article 50, second, we would be taking back

:44:22. > :44:24.control over our borders, laws, the ?10 billion EU net we give to the

:44:25. > :44:27.European Union and it would buy us plenty of options which the

:44:28. > :44:32.government presentation seems determined to present us discussing

:44:33. > :44:41.in the way he is presenting this. My honourable friend raises again the

:44:42. > :44:45.suggestion that there is no need to treat an exit vote as triggering a

:44:46. > :44:50.notice under article 15. He seems to suggest there is some other way of

:44:51. > :44:56.doing this. He raised this question on Monday and I have looked into it.

:44:57. > :45:01.He caught my imagination. But I have to tell him, that is not the view

:45:02. > :45:08.and opinion of the experts inside government and the legal experts I

:45:09. > :45:16.have talked to. That we are bound by the treaty until such time as we

:45:17. > :45:20.have left the European Union. And ministers, the treaty is a document

:45:21. > :45:25.of international law and ministers are obliged under the terms of the

:45:26. > :45:32.ministerial code to comply with international law at all times.

:45:33. > :45:38.Madam Deputy Speaker, the UK's current access to the single market

:45:39. > :45:43.would cease if we left. Our trading agreements with 53 countries around

:45:44. > :45:47.the world would lapse. It is impossible to predict with any

:45:48. > :45:52.certainty what the market response would be. It is inconceivable that

:45:53. > :45:56.the disruption would not have an immediate and negative effect on

:45:57. > :46:00.jobs, business investment, economic growth and on the pound. Those who

:46:01. > :46:07.advocate exit from the EU will need to address these issues in the weeks

:46:08. > :46:11.and months to come, the substantive consequences of the kind that

:46:12. > :46:16.British people will be most focused upon. I want to say something about

:46:17. > :46:22.the environment in which these negotiations would be conducted. It

:46:23. > :46:26.is crucially important to understand what a difficult discussion this

:46:27. > :46:32.would be. Over the last 18 months, I have got to know pretty well my EU

:46:33. > :46:36.counterparts and in many cases, their senior officials and

:46:37. > :46:39.opposition figures in most of their countries and key figures in the

:46:40. > :46:43.commission and the European Parliament. There is perhaps

:46:44. > :46:47.surprisingly, and over one in consensus among them about the

:46:48. > :46:55.importance of Britain remaining a member of the European Union. They

:46:56. > :46:59.also are politicians. They have constituents to whom they are having

:47:00. > :47:05.to explain even now why Britain adds so much value to the EU that it has

:47:06. > :47:09.to be allowed a unique and privileged set of arrangements not

:47:10. > :47:14.available to any other member state. They have collectively already

:47:15. > :47:20.invested a lot of political capital in delivering on Britain's agenda.

:47:21. > :47:24.If we reject the best of both worlds package that has been negotiated by

:47:25. > :47:28.the Prime Minister, we reject the unique and privileged position in

:47:29. > :47:32.the European Union on offer to Britain. The mood of goodwill

:47:33. > :47:42.towards Britain will evaporate in an instant. That Madam Deputy Speaker

:47:43. > :47:46.will be our negotiating backdrop. To those who say they will have to

:47:47. > :47:53.negotiate. This is important, people are talking about a negotiation that

:47:54. > :47:56.we might be having to have with 27 other member states. It is important

:47:57. > :48:02.to think about the mindset of those other states as they go into that

:48:03. > :48:09.negotiation. To those who say they will have to negotiate a sweetheart

:48:10. > :48:13.trade deal with Britain outside the EU, there will be no desire at all

:48:14. > :48:19.among the political elite of the remaining 27 member states to help

:48:20. > :48:25.and exiting Britain to show it can prosper outside the EU. They will

:48:26. > :48:29.interpret a leave decision as to fingers from the UK and we can

:48:30. > :48:34.expect Kasai slid the same in return. The idea that they will go

:48:35. > :48:39.the extra mile to ensure Britain can remain a destination for foreign

:48:40. > :48:44.direct investment to serve the EU market or that the financial

:48:45. > :48:50.services industry can compete in the European market on a level laying

:48:51. > :48:59.field is fantasy. I give way to my honourable friend. Is it not the

:49:00. > :49:06.case, I am showing respect, I think you have a weak argument. If I may,

:49:07. > :49:10.Madam Deputy Speaker, can I ask the Foreign Secretary, is it not the

:49:11. > :49:15.case that on foreign policy, the United Kingdom has a veto over

:49:16. > :49:21.foreign policy in Europe? If we were to leave the European Union, the

:49:22. > :49:23.United Kingdom would have less influence by definition an European

:49:24. > :49:28.Union foreign policy and it is more likely that European foreign policy

:49:29. > :49:36.would be dominated by France and Germany? My honourable friend is

:49:37. > :49:39.right, these are the complexities. If we were outside the European

:49:40. > :49:44.Union, we would not be bound by any foreign policy the European Union

:49:45. > :49:47.had that we would not have any influence, in this case a decisive

:49:48. > :49:54.influence, because of our veto over that. It is a judgment. People have

:49:55. > :50:01.two way up the pros and cons. I will give way to my honourable friend. I

:50:02. > :50:06.am grateful to him. He used the term political elite, he slipped into it

:50:07. > :50:14.naturally. It is the politically elite that are main problem. They

:50:15. > :50:21.ignore the voter. If it goes on, it will happen more and more. Rather to

:50:22. > :50:25.my surprise, I rather agree with my honourable friend. I will use the

:50:26. > :50:29.phrase political elite again in my speech because he is right. There is

:50:30. > :50:36.a gap between what the political elite in some countries and what

:50:37. > :50:41.their voters are thinking. The reality is, on this subject, the

:50:42. > :50:45.negotiation on Britain's future relationship with the European

:50:46. > :50:52.Union, it would be with the political elite that our negotiators

:50:53. > :50:55.would have to engage. I want to make a little more progress. Another

:50:56. > :51:02.point I want to make, any market access we agree with our former EU

:51:03. > :51:07.partners will come at a high price. We know that because we know what

:51:08. > :51:11.the basic models are for access to the single market for non-EU member

:51:12. > :51:15.states. We look at Norway, pay up as if you are a member state, accept

:51:16. > :51:21.all the rules as if you are a member state, allow full free movement

:51:22. > :51:26.across your borders but have no say, no influence and no seat at the

:51:27. > :51:32.table. Switzerland spent eight years negotiating... The honourable

:51:33. > :51:38.gentleman can say it is silly but it is a fact. That is a fact of where

:51:39. > :51:42.Norway is today. It is the fact it took Switzerland eight years to

:51:43. > :51:47.negotiate piecemeal access on a sector by sector basis to the single

:51:48. > :51:56.market. And that Switzerland has had to accept three times as many EU

:51:57. > :52:01.migrants per capita than the UK has. Surely that cannot be the future for

:52:02. > :52:07.Britain. That the leave campaign seeks, literally the worst of both

:52:08. > :52:12.worlds. I am interested in his judgment as to the character of our

:52:13. > :52:17.fellow EU countries. Is he really saying that Germany would be so

:52:18. > :52:22.vindictive and spiteful but they would cut their own noses off to

:52:23. > :52:30.spite their face? A White Paper says we export Williams in goods and

:52:31. > :52:36.services to them but they export ?70.6 billion worth of goods and

:52:37. > :52:40.services to us. A deficit of ?27.3 billion. Does he really think they

:52:41. > :52:45.are sobering to the -- vindictive and spiteful, they would close the

:52:46. > :52:52.door on that? I would make two points. He is right, Britain has a

:52:53. > :52:57.substantial devastate in trade in goods with the European Union. If

:52:58. > :53:07.all he was seeking was a free trade in goods, that would be relatively

:53:08. > :53:12.simple to negotiate. But Britain will need much more than that to get

:53:13. > :53:18.a fair deal for written's businesses and to protect the Tisch jobs. I

:53:19. > :53:25.want to make another point. He is right that there will be economic

:53:26. > :53:32.voices across Europe for a free-trade deal with the UK but

:53:33. > :53:38.there will also be political elites looking over their shoulder at the

:53:39. > :53:42.effect of a British exit. Looking over their shoulder at their

:53:43. > :53:44.political opponents in their own countries are fearful that the

:53:45. > :53:51.contagion, as they would see it, would spread. They would not wish to

:53:52. > :53:56.do anything that will help us to demonstrate that Britain can succeed

:53:57. > :54:01.outside the European Union. That is a simple political fact. Everyone in

:54:02. > :54:08.this chamber is a politician, we know how that situation works, when

:54:09. > :54:11.the chips are down, they will protect their political interests.

:54:12. > :54:17.Would he agree with me that those advocating that we leave express a

:54:18. > :54:22.big inconsistency. Saying that when we are in the European Union, we

:54:23. > :54:26.cannot get anything we want but if we come out of the European Union,

:54:27. > :54:32.we would get precisely what we want? Madam Deputy Speaker, I think the

:54:33. > :54:38.honourable lady has put her finger on it. This is where the debate will

:54:39. > :54:41.hinge. Those proposing we should remain are proposing that we stick

:54:42. > :54:46.with the proposition that we know and understand and layer over it the

:54:47. > :54:50.additional benefits the Prime Minister has gained for us in this

:54:51. > :54:55.negotiation. Those proposing that we should leave don't know what they

:54:56. > :55:00.are proposing to the British people because they can't know. They can

:55:01. > :55:04.tell us what they would like to achieve and what they could hope to

:55:05. > :55:09.negotiate but by definition they cannot know until afterwards. The

:55:10. > :55:14.British people cannot know until afterwards what the proposition is

:55:15. > :55:22.they would be voting for. I want to move on and set out how I see the

:55:23. > :55:28.consequences of Britain voting to remain in the EU. I want it to be

:55:29. > :55:32.with the mindset of a leader. Having renegotiated the terms of our

:55:33. > :55:38.membership and ensuring protections we needed, we need to be a louder

:55:39. > :55:45.voice in the EU. Exercising our influence as written -- Europe's

:55:46. > :55:50.second leading economy and leader of the reform movement. We need to stop

:55:51. > :55:55.seeing ourselves as passive victims of the EU and see Britain for what

:55:56. > :56:00.it is. One of the most powerful and influential member states to whom

:56:01. > :56:05.others look for leadership to keep the European Union as a free-market

:56:06. > :56:09.union, competitive and engaged with the challenges of the globalised

:56:10. > :56:15.economy. We can take that role because Europe is changing. There

:56:16. > :56:21.was a time where Britain really was in a minority approach but the

:56:22. > :56:26.political balance across the EU is shifting away from an unquestioned

:56:27. > :56:31.acceptance of the inevitability of more Europe to and engaged

:56:32. > :56:35.scepticism and a desire for the EU to focus on where it can add value

:56:36. > :56:39.and leave the member states to get on with their own business where it

:56:40. > :56:44.cannot. A recognition of the benefits of membership with an

:56:45. > :56:50.increasing focus on costs and a healthy pragmatism about the limits

:56:51. > :56:57.of what BT you can deliver. In Denmark, Finland, Poland, Hungary,

:56:58. > :57:01.other Baltic and Scandinavian states, we find ourselves in

:57:02. > :57:06.like-minded company with partners who share our vision of the future

:57:07. > :57:11.of Europe. Even in the Netherlands, one of the founder member states,

:57:12. > :57:16.the mood has shifted sharply. In that country they have a slogan

:57:17. > :57:21.which rather neatly sums up what most people in Britain think about

:57:22. > :57:27.the EU. "National Where possible, Europe where necessary." Across the

:57:28. > :57:32.continent as a whole, the population as opposed to the political elite

:57:33. > :57:35.has become more sceptical about the EU and focused on the need for

:57:36. > :57:47.reform and accountability. and I am deeply grateful, has in

:57:48. > :57:56.notice that an increasing number of EU states, are looking, attic

:57:57. > :58:04.enviously and seeing that this is a rich that they want to quality take

:58:05. > :58:10.advantage of because there is a Jew and serve in does the political

:58:11. > :58:16.elite? The honourable gentleman is right and that is the case, that

:58:17. > :58:19.Britain can lead that reformist tendency within the European Union

:58:20. > :58:24.that is subscribe to buy more and more member states and even more of

:58:25. > :58:32.the populations, where the political elites have not yet woken up to the

:58:33. > :58:35.new reality. Their task is clear Madam Deputy Speaker with our

:58:36. > :58:38.neighbours, the package agreed in Brussels last week is a big enough

:58:39. > :58:41.step forward to allow us to recommend to the British people

:58:42. > :58:48.staying in the EU on the special terms. But do not for a moment

:58:49. > :58:54.imagine that a UK recommitted to EU membership will rest on its laurels.

:58:55. > :58:57.Expect to deal with the UK fighting continuously at the head of a

:58:58. > :59:03.growing phalanx of like-minded member states, to keep the EU on the

:59:04. > :59:08.track of reform and competitiveness. Expect us to police vigorously the

:59:09. > :59:15.delivery of the promises that have been made on deregulation,

:59:16. > :59:19.repatriation of powers, Eurozone fairness, single market fairness and

:59:20. > :59:25.on trade agreements. The choice for Britain is simple, a leading role in

:59:26. > :59:30.a reformed EU or a leap in the dark to negotiate from a position of

:59:31. > :59:36.weakness with a 27 member states we would just have snubbed. Driving the

:59:37. > :59:40.expansion of the single market and you trade agreements within, or

:59:41. > :59:45.watching outside as the rules of the market are shaped by the interests

:59:46. > :59:50.of others. Madam Deputy Speaker the special status that Britain now has

:59:51. > :59:55.on offer, means that we can have the best of both worlds. Being given the

:59:56. > :00:01.parts of Europe that work for us, and permanently out of those that

:00:02. > :00:06.don't. Influencing the decisions that affect us, shaping the world's

:00:07. > :00:11.largest market, cooperating to keep Britain safe, strong and better off

:00:12. > :00:15.with the status of our pound and the Bank of England guaranteed, her

:00:16. > :00:19.exclusion from Eurozone bailouts confirmed, out of the passport free

:00:20. > :00:25.Schengen Area, permanently protected from further steps of integration

:00:26. > :00:28.towards the European superstate and with new commitments Meydan

:00:29. > :00:32.mechanisms established Djourou juice burdens on business and return

:00:33. > :00:36.powers to member states. Of course there is more to do but as we move

:00:37. > :00:42.towards the referendum, this government has no doubt that on

:00:43. > :00:53.these terms, the United Kingdom is safer, stronger and better off

:00:54. > :00:57.inside a reformed European Union. Order, the house has tested the

:00:58. > :01:00.Foreign Secretary with a great many interventions this afternoon and he

:01:01. > :01:04.has been most patient and courteous in fully answering those

:01:05. > :01:09.interventions but it has taken quite considerable time. I warn honourable

:01:10. > :01:15.members who have in their heads or in their hands long speeches which

:01:16. > :01:19.they intend to deliver, that I will have two impose a time limit on

:01:20. > :01:25.backbench speeches of some nine minutes later in the day. The

:01:26. > :01:33.question is that this house has considered European affairs. Mr

:01:34. > :01:37.Hilary Benn. Thank you very much indeed Madam Deputy Speaker, almost

:01:38. > :01:41.41 years ago this has to pay to the terms of a renegotiation about our

:01:42. > :01:47.place in Europe prior to a referendum of the British people. On

:01:48. > :01:52.the 7th of April 1975, this is what the opening speaker in that debate

:01:53. > :01:56.said. "For Many honourable members as for millions outside the house,

:01:57. > :02:00.the issue is not limited to an assessment of the outcome of the

:02:01. > :02:04.negotiations. Many have already made up their minds, there will be a

:02:05. > :02:07.statue body of opinion who already believe that Britain should be in

:02:08. > :02:13.the community to the great economic good Britain in a changing world.

:02:14. > :02:17.Equally, there is a substantial body of opinion which is fundamentally

:02:18. > :02:23.opposed to British membership, and which holds that no possible

:02:24. > :02:25.renegotiation could have changed the nature of the community

:02:26. > :02:32.significantly to enable it to support the British participation.

:02:33. > :02:36.Those were the words of the then Labour Prime Minister Howells Wilson

:02:37. > :02:40.who incidentally gave the British people a decision about their place

:02:41. > :02:46.in Europe -- Howard Wilson. What that reminds us is that some things

:02:47. > :02:50.never change. Although then it was the Labour Party, our party that

:02:51. > :02:55.will spit over our place in Europe and the Conservatives were united.

:02:56. > :03:01.Whereas now there has been a complete reversal of roles. History

:03:02. > :03:04.is repeating itself in mirror image. I almost felt sorry for the Prime

:03:05. > :03:10.Minister on Monday as members opposite listened, I will give way

:03:11. > :03:14.of course. As we are talking about history can we at least agree on

:03:15. > :03:18.this, that the right honourable gentleman's late lamented and great

:03:19. > :03:22.father, and Enoch Powell were at least writing this during dosage

:03:23. > :03:30.storage abates in the early 1970s, this was a unique endeavour what we

:03:31. > :03:34.were signing up to was quite unlike any other treaty because it

:03:35. > :03:38.establishes supremacy of the European Court of Justice over this

:03:39. > :03:49.house. Can we at least agree on this, there is no halfway house, we

:03:50. > :03:57.are either under EU law and it all we are not. This is why the Labour

:03:58. > :04:01.Party decided, that people should have their say, because a transfer

:04:02. > :04:05.of that kind of sovereignty is not a decision for the House of Commons

:04:06. > :04:09.but for the British people, and the British people made their choice and

:04:10. > :04:13.decided by a significant margin to remain in the European Community.

:04:14. > :04:19.The point I was making about the Prime Minister's reception on

:04:20. > :04:22.Monday, is that my right honourable friend, the member for Wolverhampton

:04:23. > :04:28.South East is fond of describing some honourable members as the

:04:29. > :04:32.desperate to be disappointed. I think it is fair to say that they

:04:33. > :04:37.were indeed disappointed because they would never be satisfied. I

:04:38. > :04:42.will give way. I am grateful to the right honourable gentleman for

:04:43. > :04:45.giving way but just before he continues, he seems to give the

:04:46. > :04:50.impression that the Labour Party is completely united on this position,

:04:51. > :04:53.where is that really excludes public statements made by some of his

:04:54. > :04:57.colleagues that they are in favour of leaving the European Union and

:04:58. > :05:03.there are many labour organisations around the country already

:05:04. > :05:10.campaigning to pull out. I'm not sure that I would bow to the

:05:11. > :05:18.honourable gentleman's alleged great knowledge of Labour organisations.

:05:19. > :05:21.But they have come overwhelmingly in support of remaining in the European

:05:22. > :05:26.Union. If you look at the trade union movement, strong support for

:05:27. > :05:31.Britain remaining for reasons that I shall come onto a little bit later

:05:32. > :05:35.on. The truth is that we have changed our view, and actually it

:05:36. > :05:39.strengthens the argument for us remaining in the European Union, the

:05:40. > :05:44.point I was also going to make about the Prime Minister is that he never

:05:45. > :05:47.was I think going to come back with a deal that he didn't feel able to

:05:48. > :05:52.recommend because we know that he didn't want the referendum in the

:05:53. > :05:55.to concede it by the turmoil and to concede it by the turmoil and

:05:56. > :06:00.disagreement on the benches opposite. I will say about the deal,

:06:01. > :06:08.that it does contain some useful and important changes. Some of which we

:06:09. > :06:12.called for. As the Leader of the Opposition, there was a commitment

:06:13. > :06:15.in the manifesto. Detection in the pound because we are not in the euro

:06:16. > :06:19.and it was the last Labour government that took the decision

:06:20. > :06:25.that we would not join the euro, how wise a decision was that? Reforming

:06:26. > :06:30.of the sending of child benefit back to children and the establishment of

:06:31. > :06:33.the principle of fair contributions. Namely that those coming to work in

:06:34. > :06:39.this country should pay in before they receive in work benefits. Madam

:06:40. > :06:44.Deputy Speaker, the choice that the British people now face, will not

:06:45. > :06:48.rest, on the terms of this renegotiation. I would argue that it

:06:49. > :06:54.will rest on something much bigger and more important than that, and it

:06:55. > :06:58.is this question. How would our economy and trading relationships

:06:59. > :07:02.and the prospect for investment be affected by taking a step into the

:07:03. > :07:06.unknown and how do we see ourselves, if the honourable gentleman will

:07:07. > :07:10.bear with me. How do we see ourselves as a country, our place in

:07:11. > :07:16.the world and in Europe, now and in the years ahead? What is the Labour

:07:17. > :07:21.Party position on whether or not it would be appropriate for Scotland to

:07:22. > :07:25.be taken out of the European Union? It is to respect the decision that

:07:26. > :07:29.the Scottish people took in the referendum when they rejected

:07:30. > :07:32.independence, we won the United Kingdom, and the decision will be

:07:33. > :07:38.taken by the people of the United Kingdom. And on this side of the

:07:39. > :07:44.house Madam Deputy Speaker, we are clear, we support Britain remaining

:07:45. > :07:47.a member of the European Union. We held that due before the

:07:48. > :07:53.renegotiation, we hold that view today, because it has brought us

:07:54. > :07:59.jobs and growth and investment and security, and I would argue it gives

:08:00. > :08:02.us influence in the world. The four exploit each of those benefits in

:08:03. > :08:05.turn I want to address briefly the two essential arguments of those

:08:06. > :08:10.opposite to think that we should leave. Namely sovereignty and taking

:08:11. > :08:15.back control, of course I will give way. The right honourable gentleman

:08:16. > :08:21.has just said that the EU has brought so much in a way prosperity

:08:22. > :08:26.and jobs, of course that doesn't apply to some countries like Spain,

:08:27. > :08:30.Portugal and Greece. They are also members of the EU, how is it that

:08:31. > :08:34.they are suffering so much unemployment and low growth, and the

:08:35. > :08:37.United Kingdom is prospering? Is not the difference that we as well as

:08:38. > :08:43.being members of the EU are led by a Conservative government? I am afraid

:08:44. > :08:46.that the right honourable gentleman is not going to tempt me to agree

:08:47. > :08:53.with him on that particular observation at all, but I will make

:08:54. > :08:58.the argument about the precise way in which those benefits that I have

:08:59. > :09:03.just described have been brought to pass. Because of the opportunities

:09:04. > :09:08.that membership of the European Union has given us. The original

:09:09. > :09:11.decision to join the European Union was taken by this sovereign House of

:09:12. > :09:19.Commons, it was a decision confirmed by the sovereign Jewish people, all

:09:20. > :09:24.of the British treaty changes followed, including those including

:09:25. > :09:28.qualified majority voting were included by Conservative and Labour

:09:29. > :09:33.government and were approved by this sovereign parliament. What that

:09:34. > :09:36.tells us is that we have chosen has a sovereign parliament, to work in

:09:37. > :09:40.Europe for a purpose, to achieve things that we think benefit us and

:09:41. > :09:47.our neighbours. The second argument is about taking back control, which

:09:48. > :09:50.I have to say I think is a belief or some that somehow Britain standing

:09:51. > :09:56.alone would have a voice that it possessed 50 is a go. Here I think

:09:57. > :10:00.Madam Deputy Speaker we have two be honest with each other, we live in a

:10:01. > :10:05.different world now, to the one that gave birth to the European coal and

:10:06. > :10:10.steel community after the end of the Second World War. We have witnessed

:10:11. > :10:14.the end of Empire, the creation of the United Nations, indeed of the

:10:15. > :10:19.European Union. The formation of Nato, the end of the Cold War, the

:10:20. > :10:23.collapse of the Berlin Wall. We have lived through an era that has seen

:10:24. > :10:28.the rise of new world powers, alliances, conflicts, threats, and

:10:29. > :10:30.the blistering pace of technological change that is revolutionising our

:10:31. > :10:37.economies and is shrinking the way in which we perceive our world. We

:10:38. > :10:44.cannot turn the clock back. And to argue that we can is to mislead

:10:45. > :10:49.ourselves and others. But what we can do is to use the qualities that

:10:50. > :10:55.we hand the nation are blessed with, to make the most of the

:10:56. > :10:58.opportunities that this new world presents to us. That is exactly what

:10:59. > :11:03.this membership of the European Union helps us to do. Look at the

:11:04. > :11:07.strength of London has a financial centre, look at the openness and

:11:08. > :11:11.diversity of our society. The talent for creativity. The UK computer

:11:12. > :11:20.games industry, he didn't even exist 40 years ago, it is now generates ?2

:11:21. > :11:24.billion a year in global sales. And supports nearly 30,000 jobs. The

:11:25. > :11:27.worldwide reach of being this language, all of these things help

:11:28. > :11:34.to make us the fifth biggest economy in the world. I will give way. When

:11:35. > :11:42.we think about the City of London, we think about bankers, bad bankers,

:11:43. > :11:44.and unfortunately, some of the disproportionately high banking

:11:45. > :11:48.bonuses but banking is a necessary part of the economy but also the

:11:49. > :11:52.pensions of this country are often found in the City of London which

:11:53. > :11:55.affect every single person up and down the land. Does the right

:11:56. > :12:00.honourable gentleman agree with me that an exit from the European Union

:12:01. > :12:02.would make it more likely that banks and institutions and pension funds

:12:03. > :12:10.would go to Frankfurt rather than London?

:12:11. > :12:15.There are real risks, and the Foreign Secretary made the point in

:12:16. > :12:22.his beach. It is legitimate to point out those risks. Which even the

:12:23. > :12:27.honourable member for Uxbridge acknowledged in the article he wrote

:12:28. > :12:30.in the Daily Telegraph. It is consideration we should take into

:12:31. > :12:33.account. Half our exports go to Europe because we are part of the

:12:34. > :12:39.single market. You have to think about the supply change and the

:12:40. > :12:43.services, we also export around the world because of the deals were

:12:44. > :12:51.European Union has negotiated with other countries. Incidentally, the

:12:52. > :12:58.EU either has or negotiated trade agreements with 90% of Commonwealth

:12:59. > :13:02.countries. I have argued with those who say that the EU has prevented us

:13:03. > :13:06.better having better trade arrangements with Commonwealth

:13:07. > :13:11.countries, that is not the case. Why on earth would we want to exchange

:13:12. > :13:18.the certainty of the deals we currently have for the uncertainty

:13:19. > :13:21.of the deals we might not secure? As we have heard and I thought the

:13:22. > :13:28.Foreign Secretary made the point very forcefully. We have good trade

:13:29. > :13:32.deals already. The only examples we have got of the alter and give and

:13:33. > :13:38.he made reference to Norway. If you look at the arrangement Norway has,

:13:39. > :13:46.Norwegians would say "I would not do that if I were you." It looks like a

:13:47. > :13:51.pretty bad deal to us. It is one of the reasons the British trade union

:13:52. > :13:54.movement changed its view in the late 1980s when Mrs Thatcher was

:13:55. > :13:57.busy taking away trade union rights in this country and saw an

:13:58. > :14:03.opportunity for workers rights across Europe. The EU has helped us

:14:04. > :14:09.deal with some of the consequences of global change by protecting

:14:10. > :14:16.workers in every European country. Paid holidays, the right to spend

:14:17. > :14:21.more time with your newborn child from improved maternity and

:14:22. > :14:26.paternity leave. Limits on working time, better protection for agency

:14:27. > :14:29.and temporary workers. That is a striking sample of how working

:14:30. > :14:41.together across Europe can protect workers. He has campaigned for many

:14:42. > :14:45.years on behalf of Africa and trade with Africa and supporting

:14:46. > :14:49.prosperity in Africa. What would he say to the protectionist policies of

:14:50. > :14:56.the European Union which prohibited and make trade with Africa more

:14:57. > :15:01.difficult? I argued precisely that Europe should be changing its

:15:02. > :15:05.policies in relation to the common agricultural policy. I would say

:15:06. > :15:09.something about development later in my speech because it seems that as

:15:10. > :15:15.well is a strong argument as to why we should remain part of the

:15:16. > :15:20.European Union. I will give way of course. I am grateful, before he

:15:21. > :15:25.moves on from the list of employment rights guaranteed at EU level that

:15:26. > :15:30.he has set out, does he agree with me that it is important to point out

:15:31. > :15:35.that when those people who would take us out of the European Union

:15:36. > :15:40.attack EU red tape and bureaucracy, it is precisely those rights they

:15:41. > :15:45.are usually talking about West Chamakh right to equal treatment as

:15:46. > :15:51.a part-time worker, these are examples of justice in the

:15:52. > :15:56.workplace, not needless bureaucracy. I agree with him completely. I heard

:15:57. > :16:01.one of those ministers advocating Britain's exit from the European

:16:02. > :16:07.Union, when asked on television this weekend, he made reference to health

:16:08. > :16:12.and safety. I would say health and safety is not red tape, not a

:16:13. > :16:15.burden, it is about protecting British workers, German workers,

:16:16. > :16:20.Spanish workers, when they go to work to make sure they can do their

:16:21. > :16:25.job safely and securely. I would say if we did vote to leave, we could

:16:26. > :16:28.end up with a double nightmare, there would still be a Conservative

:16:29. > :16:33.government in this country and given past records, I am not sure I would

:16:34. > :16:39.suffer that government to ensure we keep those rights that we currently

:16:40. > :16:46.have. Madam Deputy Speaker, a more important reason why we should

:16:47. > :16:48.remain members of the EU. It is the argument that Britain's influence in

:16:49. > :16:53.the world is strengthened by membership of that union. It

:16:54. > :16:59.promotes interdependence through trade. It advances our economic

:17:00. > :17:03.security because it tackles conflict and other global challenges and

:17:04. > :17:07.protects us from crime and terrorism. I would say there is

:17:08. > :17:10.nothing patriotically about diminishing the United Kingdom's

:17:11. > :17:14.ability to make its voice heard by other nations by stumbling out of

:17:15. > :17:19.Europe and pulling up the drawbridge. That would serve, I

:17:20. > :17:27.would argue, to harm our position in the world. Take the example of the

:17:28. > :17:35.global economic crash in 2007-8. It shook the government -- it shook the

:17:36. > :17:42.public confidence in government regulation, we needed more

:17:43. > :17:45.cooperation between countries, if we are going to deal with the problems

:17:46. > :17:51.of big companies that show an aversion to paying tax, Europe is a

:17:52. > :17:55.good place to start. We should also acknowledge that the growth in the

:17:56. > :18:01.number of member states in the European Union has been a very

:18:02. > :18:06.powerful force for change for the better on our continent. The

:18:07. > :18:10.prospect of membership offered to those former communist states of

:18:11. > :18:13.Eastern and Central Europe, a powerful incentive to meet the

:18:14. > :18:18.conditions for joining because they were creating an alliance ilk on the

:18:19. > :18:23.values of democracy, respect for human rights, free media, the rule

:18:24. > :18:30.of law and individual freedom. As the Foreign Secretary made clear, it

:18:31. > :18:34.has helped us stronger in the face of aggression and problems around

:18:35. > :18:37.the world. There are is no doubt that the sanctions agreed against

:18:38. > :18:43.Russia have had an impact and they are biting. Although the Minsk

:18:44. > :18:47.agreement has not been fully implement it, the conflict is

:18:48. > :18:56.frozen. It is precisely because Europe was united that there was an

:18:57. > :18:59.impact. Russia would see Britain leaving the European Union as a sign

:19:00. > :19:57.of We have seen democratic change in

:19:58. > :20:01.Burma. Saying that what the previous regime did was not acceptable with a

:20:02. > :20:07.powerful force for good in the world. What these collective

:20:08. > :20:12.displays of solidarity remind us of is that the power of working with

:20:13. > :20:17.our European allies of doing good but the ongoing problems in Syria

:20:18. > :20:23.remind us of our failure in that the titular continent. I am grateful to

:20:24. > :20:26.him for giving way. In the event of a leave vote, there are two

:20:27. > :20:31.possibilities, we remain part of the single market and are subject to the

:20:32. > :20:36.same rules we have now, so what is the point of the referendum? Or we

:20:37. > :20:41.seek to realign our trading approach but also British foreign policy,

:20:42. > :20:46.away from the democracies of western Europe and the north Atlantic to the

:20:47. > :20:51.dictatorships of the East. That would not be in our interest or in

:20:52. > :20:56.the interests of Western liberal democracy. I cannot understand why

:20:57. > :21:02.so many members opposite, who expect us to bat for Britain at European

:21:03. > :21:09.Council summit is expected the other European states to do anything

:21:10. > :21:14.otherwise? I would agree, I have just tried to demonstrate to the

:21:15. > :21:18.house the benefit of working with our European allies to try and be a

:21:19. > :21:24.force for good in the world. I was in the process of saying that Syria

:21:25. > :21:30.is a terrible example of our collective failure as a world. I

:21:31. > :21:34.would like the Foreign Secretary's commentary in his comments on

:21:35. > :21:39.Tuesday that the ceasefire will be implemented and upheld but that

:21:40. > :21:45.depends on Russia. Hence the point I was making earlier. Every single one

:21:46. > :21:48.of these examples teach us that we need stronger international

:21:49. > :21:53.cooperation, not weaker. I would say at this moment and in this century,

:21:54. > :21:58.it would be extraordinary folly of our country to turn its back on this

:21:59. > :22:02.vitally important international alliance if we are going to shape

:22:03. > :22:10.world events. That is why, the Secretary General of Nato said

:22:11. > :22:14."Britain is a global player and a strong EU will also make sure Nato

:22:15. > :22:19.has a strong partner in the European Union when we are facing the same

:22:20. > :22:24.security threat." I will give way one more time but then I am going to

:22:25. > :22:28.make progress because other members want to speak. On the foreign policy

:22:29. > :22:34.question regarding Russia and all that, would the Shadow Foreign

:22:35. > :22:40.Secretary like to comment on whether he thinks the Budapest agreement of

:22:41. > :22:44.the 1990s was a good idea? To be perfectly honest, if I could say to

:22:45. > :22:50.him, I am less interested in what happened in the 1990s, I am more

:22:51. > :22:54.worried about what will happen in 2016, the big decision the British

:22:55. > :22:59.people will have to take. I would argue that our national security is

:23:00. > :23:05.served both by our membership of the EU and Nato, that cooperation across

:23:06. > :23:09.Europe is essential to deal with terrorist threats. The European

:23:10. > :23:14.arrest warrant is a good example of that and the case of the 21 July

:23:15. > :23:20.2005, who was returned here from Rome where he had gone to escape

:23:21. > :23:27.British justice demonstrates us working with our allies. It is why

:23:28. > :23:33.the director of Europe poll, Rob Wainwright, said a British exit

:23:34. > :23:36.would "Make Britain's job harder to fight crime and terrorism because it

:23:37. > :23:45.would not have the same access to very well organised European

:23:46. > :23:50.mechanisms in place today." I am going to try and bring my remarks to

:23:51. > :23:54.a close, it is the greatest challenge that peoples and countries

:23:55. > :23:57.of the world face at the beginning of the 21st century which is how we

:23:58. > :24:06.deal with the interdependence of human beings. I will give way and

:24:07. > :24:12.then I will continue. Incredibly kind of him, I wonder if he would

:24:13. > :24:15.also agree about the importance of the EU when it comes to the

:24:16. > :24:22.environment? It has not been mentioned yet this morning, but it

:24:23. > :24:30.is my boredom than ever due to clean air, clean Seas and so on. I agree

:24:31. > :24:34.absolutely with the honourable lady. The blue flag beaches are a good

:24:35. > :24:38.example. We are not going to have clean beaches in brilliant -- in

:24:39. > :24:43.Britain if we are not going to deal with sewage from other countries and

:24:44. > :24:50.vice versa. I will later address climate change where Europe is

:24:51. > :24:57.vital. The house is only too aware that with 11 billion people at the

:24:58. > :25:02.end of this century, if we look at what is happening on our continent

:25:03. > :25:06.in the last few months, the flow of refugees testing European solidarity

:25:07. > :25:12.to the limit. What would the situation be like if the European

:25:13. > :25:17.Union did not exist? The truth is it doesn't matter if people are moving

:25:18. > :25:22.across the globe, fleeing persecution for a better life,

:25:23. > :25:26.fleeing climate change. We are going to have to deal with the

:25:27. > :25:31.consequences. We have not just a moral interest in tackling climate

:25:32. > :25:37.change in tackling poverty, dealing with conflict, we have a practical

:25:38. > :25:41.interest in doing so. I can say from my experience when I was a Cabinet

:25:42. > :25:44.minister, the fact that European countries came together in the

:25:45. > :25:50.run-up to Gleneagles saying this is what they were prepared to commit to

:25:51. > :25:54.help to unlock commitments on more aid and help for the developing

:25:55. > :25:58.world. The fact Europe went to climate change summit after climate

:25:59. > :26:03.change summit with a commitment it was prepared to put on the table

:26:04. > :26:06.helped to unlock the deal we saw in Paris. I would say the final

:26:07. > :26:12.argument and it was the founding argument of the European project was

:26:13. > :26:19.that it has brought peace to a continent that for hundreds of years

:26:20. > :26:27.was scarred by war. And anyone who has been to walk along the graves

:26:28. > :26:31.from the first and second world was, the flower of two generations of

:26:32. > :26:37.Europeans, some bearing names, and how young they were, some, no names

:26:38. > :26:46.at all, it really will -- merely reads "Soldier of the Great War,

:26:47. > :26:51.known unto God." Because nobody knows who lies beneath those graves.

:26:52. > :26:55.The one disagreement I have with the Foreign Secretary in that where he

:26:56. > :26:59.says he feels no passion for Europe am I feel we should be passionate

:27:00. > :27:06.about that greatest achievement of the European project. Which was, by

:27:07. > :27:10.bringing nations together, through coal and steel, to make in the words

:27:11. > :27:19.of the Schuman declaration "Future war not merely unthinkable but

:27:20. > :27:23.materially impossible." Madam Deputy Speaker, the British people have to

:27:24. > :27:27.make a choice between the fear that we have somehow lost our identity in

:27:28. > :27:31.the world because we are part of the European Union and our experience

:27:32. > :27:35.that in Europe we have amplified and extended and increased Britain's

:27:36. > :27:42.voice in the world and that the British people have benefited

:27:43. > :27:48.economically. I have changed my view since 1975, I am proud to be a party

:27:49. > :28:00.of -- member of this party and that has also been on a journey.

:28:01. > :28:05.The story of Britain is one that has been at the heart of global affairs,

:28:06. > :28:09.at its best when we have been outlawed looking and confident. In

:28:10. > :28:15.the 20th century we helped to build institutions that had given us the

:28:16. > :28:20.chance to make progress, the UN, Nato and the EU. In the 21st-century

:28:21. > :28:23.I don't think that we can reduce our influence, we cannot shut the

:28:24. > :28:27.curtains and close the door and hope that the others will go away. This

:28:28. > :28:31.choices about whether we face the future with optimism or not and I

:28:32. > :28:34.believe that Britain's national interest is best served by remaining

:28:35. > :28:38.part of the European Union, I hope that the British people will come to

:28:39. > :28:47.that decision to. It is now their choice. Saint Nicholas Soames. Thank

:28:48. > :28:54.you, may I first of all congratulate the honourable gentleman and the

:28:55. > :28:59.Foreign Secretary, and I start my speech by saying that I warmly

:29:00. > :29:04.congratulate the courage and tenacity of the Prime Minister and

:29:05. > :29:08.his negotiating team including especially my right honourable

:29:09. > :29:12.friend the member for Europe. Who has borne much of the heat of the

:29:13. > :29:17.day, in a remarkable achievement and to say that I wish it well and I

:29:18. > :29:23.wish has the right honourable gentleman would say, I wish that the

:29:24. > :29:27.British people would have their say. Madam Deputy Speaker, this is the

:29:28. > :29:32.70th anniversary year, of Churchill's speech on the cause of

:29:33. > :29:37.the United Europe in Zurich on the 19th of September 19 46. It has

:29:38. > :29:41.always struck me as being ironic that this speech has been claimed by

:29:42. > :29:46.both sides of the European argument as being some sort of holy Grail.

:29:47. > :29:56.But as I am daily on the receiving end of some vile e-mails from people

:29:57. > :30:03.telling me that I'm a traitor to my grandfather 's memory, I thought I

:30:04. > :30:06.would if I may. I'm most grateful to my honourable friend, though I

:30:07. > :30:10.profoundly disagree with him on this issue, I hold in with the utmost

:30:11. > :30:16.respect, and that these people disgrace themselves by their

:30:17. > :30:22.insults. I am very, very grateful to my honourable friend. Of course the

:30:23. > :30:28.speech was a speech of great precedents, and great vision. It was

:30:29. > :30:34.also a speech of the most profound analysis. I will if I may, unlike

:30:35. > :30:38.most of my honourable friend is, in this house, reflect into a little

:30:39. > :30:42.more distance from Britain's experience on the European Union.

:30:43. > :30:49.And in particular, my party's long-standing commitment to the

:30:50. > :30:54.European cause. Madam Deputy Speaker reflect for a moment on the site of

:30:55. > :31:01.what Europe must have looked like, the tragedy of what Europe must have

:31:02. > :31:07.looked at in 1945. -- looks like. It is worth a house reflecting on it,

:31:08. > :31:15.it is only in the winking of an high, it was only 71 years ago, that

:31:16. > :31:22.the Germans signed instrument of surrender. It was only 70 years ago,

:31:23. > :31:27.that the Russians drew down the Iron Curtain on a broken and software

:31:28. > :31:33.used in your. And behind that line, in the wicked grip of a ruthless

:31:34. > :31:39.regime, lay all the great capitals and states of Eastern Europe.

:31:40. > :31:47.Warsaw, Prague, Berlin, Bucharest, Sophia. Most of the rest of

:31:48. > :31:54.continental Europe lay shattered and broken. After six years of war. For

:31:55. > :32:00.the second time in 25 years. There remained a vast mass of bewildered

:32:01. > :32:05.human beings, who gazed at the wreckage of their homes, their

:32:06. > :32:10.nations, their lives, their families, their possessions.

:32:11. > :32:18.Everything. But from that awful scene of desolation, of sadness, of

:32:19. > :32:24.ruin and despair, little over 70 years ago, something truly

:32:25. > :32:28.remarkable has been achieved. Which has brought freedom, security and

:32:29. > :32:35.prosperity. Way beyond the dreams, that anyone of that time would ever

:32:36. > :32:39.have contemplated. For not only have the sovereign states of Europe

:32:40. > :32:46.risen, Phoenix like from the ashes of two world wars, but they have

:32:47. > :32:50.created of their own free will, a European Union of 28 members.

:32:51. > :32:58.Comprising the biggest and most powerful single market in the world

:32:59. > :33:05.of 500 million people. In which we travel with our fellow Europeans, in

:33:06. > :33:09.prosperity, in peace, and in a constantly expanding era of

:33:10. > :33:15.cooperation, prosperity, security, safety and freedom. And when the

:33:16. > :33:23.Cold War ended, and the Berlin Wall came down on that glorious cold 9th

:33:24. > :33:28.of November 1989, the Warsaw Pact collapsed into dust without ever a

:33:29. > :33:31.shot being fired. Most of the Eastern European countries joined

:33:32. > :33:36.the European Union. And most of them also joined it. Indeed there are

:33:37. > :33:42.only six countries who are members of the European Union who are not

:33:43. > :33:47.members of Nato. And why did they join? Because Madam Deputy Speaker,

:33:48. > :33:53.the Europe and the Nato that they joined, were and are prosperous,

:33:54. > :34:00.secure and free. And they wanted just as soon as they could, to find

:34:01. > :34:05.shelter in those institutions who had benefited from a period of peace

:34:06. > :34:10.stability, freedom and security, unprecedented in a thousand years in

:34:11. > :34:17.European history. And which would protect them from a still predatory

:34:18. > :34:22.Russia. There is no argument Madam Deputy Speaker that the European

:34:23. > :34:26.Union was absolutely central to these developments. It is a very

:34:27. > :34:31.great credit to our country, that we should have played such a leading

:34:32. > :34:35.role in seeing all of this through. The European Union has achieved a

:34:36. > :34:40.very great deal. But it cannot and it must not allow itself any

:34:41. > :34:46.self-congratulation in these very difficult times. For although we can

:34:47. > :34:51.see that the ice has melted on the landscape of the second half of the

:34:52. > :34:55.its forms has shifted hand is its forms has shifted hand is

:34:56. > :35:01.shifting rapidly and unpredictably, how inadequately most of the

:35:02. > :35:06.institutions of the European Union have coped. This must be remedied.

:35:07. > :35:10.As we look across Europe, with all of the achievements that it has two

:35:11. > :35:16.its name, the pervasive mood is one of insecurity, of lack of confidence

:35:17. > :35:21.and optimism. These are characteristics not only found in

:35:22. > :35:26.Europe. And the troubles of government everywhere speak to the

:35:27. > :35:30.anxieties of their electorates and sadly to the mistrust of their

:35:31. > :35:34.politicians, there is tuitions and their leaders. The public across

:35:35. > :35:39.Europe know only too well, that the world of easy answers instant

:35:40. > :35:48.solutions and declaratory statements, RA constructed -- RA

:35:49. > :35:52.constructed of politicians and media. And as power shifts so

:35:53. > :35:58.rapidly, you might almost believe that we are today at the start of a

:35:59. > :36:02.new history. Nowhere are these difficulties and insecurities and

:36:03. > :36:09.lack of understanding more obvious than in this country of ours. I am

:36:10. > :36:12.always wary of trying to work out what Churchill might have thought

:36:13. > :36:19.today because I think it is an impertinence to do so. But one thing

:36:20. > :36:24.I absolutely know, that has the world has grown bigger for Britain,

:36:25. > :36:28.the opportunity is greater, the chances mortgage ring for our

:36:29. > :36:32.commerce and our people, so the people who practice politics and

:36:33. > :36:37.government in this country and especially those who write about it,

:36:38. > :36:44.have a sadly cramped and limited view of Europe and the rest of the

:36:45. > :36:51.world. So in this campaign, one of our most important tasks, all of us,

:36:52. > :36:58.whatever side we are on. He is to remind our fellow citizens, that we

:36:59. > :37:04.share a region, a climate, Marshall via history, tomography, our

:37:05. > :37:08.economic space and our culture, with other countries of the European

:37:09. > :37:13.Union. Something that Churchill pointed out very strongly in the

:37:14. > :37:18.Zurich speech. Our intellectual and cultural life are all intertwined

:37:19. > :37:23.with Europe, we face shared problems in endless comparable ways, as the

:37:24. > :37:34.the environment questions in which the environment questions in which

:37:35. > :37:39.Europe has been extremely effective. But how shallow media engages with

:37:40. > :37:43.none of this, or the interests vital to us or our European partners,

:37:44. > :37:48.allies and friends as our friend suggests now. That was the position

:37:49. > :37:53.until very recently, now that the media has finally woken up like the

:37:54. > :38:00.great Slack monster that it is to the awesome prospect of combat,

:38:01. > :38:03.newspaper cells in competition as each side of the argument tries to

:38:04. > :38:09.persuade fellow citizens of the right way. Madam Speaker I rejoice

:38:10. > :38:10.at the Strawberry achievement of the Prime Minister had what he has

:38:11. > :38:15.achieved in Brussels and I commit achieved in Brussels and I commit

:38:16. > :38:19.myself to make the case to the best of my ability whenever I have the

:38:20. > :38:24.opportunity. And I'm struck by the scale of support for the European

:38:25. > :38:29.Union, from British commerce and business both large and small, and

:38:30. > :38:33.most especially, in the important letter in the Daily Telegraph

:38:34. > :38:37.yesterday, from four former chiefs of the defence staff and other

:38:38. > :38:43.service chiefs on the great importance of the European Union in

:38:44. > :38:47.the security sphere. I believe that the case to remain is overwhelming

:38:48. > :38:51.on all fronts, but there is no point in pretending that the European

:38:52. > :38:55.Union doesn't face many major challenges where it has to find a

:38:56. > :38:59.better and more effective way of resolving. The refugee crisis for

:39:00. > :39:04.example has made the European Union look deeply ineffective, surely

:39:05. > :39:07.reactive and it is clear that Schengen can survive without the

:39:08. > :39:14.most dramatic reform, and that the external borders of Europe. None of

:39:15. > :39:19.us can feel happy that the European Union which has brought such great

:39:20. > :39:24.stability to so much of the European continent, now appears to be weak

:39:25. > :39:29.and uncertain, its unpopularity matters and it is damaging. So my

:39:30. > :39:34.our government will seize the our government will seize the

:39:35. > :39:41.moment, and having discovered and rediscovered the great value of

:39:42. > :39:43.extremely energetic and skilled diplomacy, the Prime Minister, the

:39:44. > :39:48.Foreign Secretary and the Minister for Europe and others will really

:39:49. > :39:52.push ahead to the EU to drive with like-minded colleagues the big

:39:53. > :39:56.reforms that Europe must follow. They will find willing friends who

:39:57. > :40:00.also want to do the same. There is an enormous agenda that Britain can

:40:01. > :40:08.play to hand will play a leading role in, in economic reform, energy,

:40:09. > :40:14.defence, foreign policy. There are practical and radical steps that can

:40:15. > :40:18.be taken. Madam Deputy Speaker may I finally indulge myself by recalling

:40:19. > :40:25.the end of Churchill's great speech to the Congress of Europe in the

:40:26. > :40:32.Hague in 1948. And remember that the founding fathers of Europe, with a

:40:33. > :40:36.noble vision, built this astonishing edifice on firm and very lasting

:40:37. > :40:43.foundations. This is what Churchill said at the Hague conference. "A

:40:44. > :40:47.High have sole responsibility rests upon us here this afternoon in this

:40:48. > :40:54.Congress of Europe striving be reborn. If we allow ourselves to be

:40:55. > :41:01.rent and disordered, by pettiness and small disputes, if we fail in

:41:02. > :41:06.clarity of you will courage in action, a priceless occasion may be

:41:07. > :41:12.cast away forever. But if we all pull together, and we pull the luck

:41:13. > :41:18.and the comradeship, and we shall need all of the comradeship and all

:41:19. > :41:25.of the luck, and firmly grasp, the larger hopes of humanity, then it

:41:26. > :41:32.may be, that we shall move into a happier, sunlit age. When all the

:41:33. > :41:37.little children who are now growing up in his tormented world, may find

:41:38. > :41:46.themselves not the victors, nor the vanquished in the fleeting trials,

:41:47. > :41:50.in the bloody turmoil of war. But the cares of all the treasures of

:41:51. > :41:51.the past and the masters of all the science, the abundance and the

:41:52. > :42:03.glories of the future. Those of us who fight the good fight

:42:04. > :42:08.to remain do so with confidence and humility and profound respect for

:42:09. > :42:12.those who hold very different and long-standing views to us. But in

:42:13. > :42:18.the sure knowledge that this issue is about Britain's fundamental place

:42:19. > :42:28.in the world for a generation to come, for a confident and open

:42:29. > :42:33.engaged pro-European Great Britain. Could I call the honourable member

:42:34. > :42:38.for Gordon who is not on a time limit. Can I warn members that

:42:39. > :42:45.backbench contributions will be limited to nine minutes. Madam

:42:46. > :42:50.Speaker, I am delighted to follow the Right Honourable member for Mid

:42:51. > :42:54.Sussex. I have not always found myself in such agreement with the

:42:55. > :42:59.Right Honourable member over the years we have been members of this

:43:00. > :43:04.place. If I remember correctly, we were elected back on the same day in

:43:05. > :43:08.1987. I am delighted to follow him today, not just because we will be

:43:09. > :43:12.on the same side during this buffer Rendon campaign, which might be a

:43:13. > :43:17.first as well but the nature of the argument that he pursued in his

:43:18. > :43:23.speech. I am absolutely convinced that from the remaining point of

:43:24. > :43:27.view, the argument has to be presented at that kind of level.

:43:28. > :43:32.About the big issues, things that really matter if we want to get

:43:33. > :43:38.people to polling stations to vote to continue membership of the

:43:39. > :43:47.European Union. I should not tempt my luck but I hope the honourable

:43:48. > :43:51.members homage to his grandfather's achievements may spread to one of

:43:52. > :43:54.the other is to Jewish and is where he had substantial influence on the

:43:55. > :43:59.Council of Europe, the European Convention and the Strasbourg Court

:44:00. > :44:06.of Human Rights. 47 countries brought together in respect of human

:44:07. > :44:11.rights, an achievement for Winston Churchill and Scottish lawyer David

:44:12. > :44:17.Maxwell Fyfe. We will count on that support when that battle is to be

:44:18. > :44:21.waged in the not too distant future. Saying about the level of his

:44:22. > :44:25.contribution today, I would make this appeal to the Foreign Secretary

:44:26. > :44:29.and to the Prime Minister. I was trying to make the point earlier

:44:30. > :44:35.this week, if you look at the politics of this, by

:44:36. > :44:38.inevitabilities, numerically, arithmetically, if the case for

:44:39. > :44:43.Europe is going to be one, then the bulk of votes to win it will have to

:44:44. > :44:49.come from the Labour Party, SNP, Green party and Clyde Comrie. I

:44:50. > :44:54.would say the Liberals as well but as the most pro-European party, they

:44:55. > :45:00.seem to have deserted because, hopefully momentarily. The

:45:01. > :45:06.Conservative Party achieved 37% of the vote in the general election and

:45:07. > :45:11.even if the Prime Minister and the Foreign Secretary are successful in

:45:12. > :45:15.carrying a majority of that vote into the remain camped as I hope

:45:16. > :45:21.they do in the coming referendum, that would be roughly 20% of the

:45:22. > :45:30.electorate. To win a referendum, as I know too well, you cannot achieve

:45:31. > :45:34.37%, 45%, but more than 50%. Arithmetically, the bulk of that

:45:35. > :45:37.winning vote, as I hope it will be, will be from those who voted for

:45:38. > :45:44.Labour, SNP, the Green party and played Comrie and the progressive

:45:45. > :45:48.side of the ticks. That affects how arguments need to be presented. With

:45:49. > :45:54.great respect to the Foreign Secretary and I can understand why

:45:55. > :46:00.because the Tory ministers arguing a pro-European cores are like a wagon

:46:01. > :46:03.train surrounded by hostiles. They have to hitch themselves on a

:46:04. > :46:15.certain type of the argument. He started his speech by saying he was

:46:16. > :46:20.still a Eurosceptic despite his conversion to the end cause. It is

:46:21. > :46:25.an argument that may be useful in fending off be hostiles but is not

:46:26. > :46:29.necessarily an argument that will grip the attention of the bulk of

:46:30. > :46:33.voters who need to be convinced by the European argument. For the

:46:34. > :46:38.Labour Party and ourselves, the achievements of social Europe are

:46:39. > :46:46.important. Achievements that have come and things that could still be.

:46:47. > :46:50.For the Green party, environmental issues are a huge moment, these are

:46:51. > :46:56.things that have to be even more decided on that continental scale.

:46:57. > :47:00.The arguments on refugees, for those of us on the progressive side of

:47:01. > :47:04.politics, we want to see the country do more in terms of solidarity with

:47:05. > :47:09.the refugee crisis that has this set Europe. In addition to being

:47:10. > :47:15.positive and confident about Europe's achievements, which the

:47:16. > :47:19.Right Honourable gentleman spoke about. The prosperity of the single

:47:20. > :47:24.market and the achievement of workers rights that converted so

:47:25. > :47:28.many on the progressive side of politics in the 80s and 90s to the

:47:29. > :47:32.European cores. This argument cannot be presented as if it was just about

:47:33. > :47:37.the largest faction in the Conservative Party. It has to be to

:47:38. > :47:49.command majority support across the country. Secondly... Can I ask, he

:47:50. > :47:53.is making an eloquent point as ever, can I ask him a simple question,

:47:54. > :47:57.does he think the left of centre vote across the United Kingdom and

:47:58. > :48:03.Scotland will support a political construct that has inflicted pain

:48:04. > :48:08.Yury on many people in southern Europe in pursuit of the discredited

:48:09. > :48:14.money policy driven essentially by Germany, is he proud of that, is it

:48:15. > :48:20.socially progressive? It is exactly the sort of area we want to debate

:48:21. > :48:25.because we want to see a Europe that builds a covenant, not as he puts

:48:26. > :48:29.it, enforces that, that is exactly the argument why we want to change

:48:30. > :48:39.the focus of Europe in terms of how it does and achieves things. I will

:48:40. > :48:45.give way to him slightly later on, but I want to reflect on one point

:48:46. > :48:50.where I have particular experience. A bit of honesty is called for, as a

:48:51. > :48:55.First Minister who lost a referendum and then resigned the next day, I

:48:56. > :48:59.did that because I did think it is edible for a First Minister or a

:49:00. > :49:04.Prime Minister to continue in office in the circumstances. I do not

:49:05. > :49:08.believe the Prime Minister and I do think the majority of his party or

:49:09. > :49:17.the country believe it when he says he would sail off from this if he

:49:18. > :49:21.had to negotiate an out of the European Union after telling people

:49:22. > :49:26.it was essential to the security and prosperity to the country, as he put

:49:27. > :49:30.it last week, for us to be in it. There is evidence to suggest the

:49:31. > :49:36.Prime Minister has form on these matters. On the 17th of September

:49:37. > :49:40.2014, he said that the question on the Scottish referendum was not

:49:41. > :49:44.about his future but the future of Scotland. He would continue

:49:45. > :49:52.regardless of the result. By the 28th of September, 11 days later, he

:49:53. > :49:56.confided to a Scotland Sunday newspaper "If the vote had been for

:49:57. > :50:00.Scotland to leave the UK, I genuinely would have been

:50:01. > :50:03.heartbroken, I would have winded and wounded. Emotionally one would have

:50:04. > :50:08.thought I am so saddened by this that I find it difficult to go on."

:50:09. > :50:14.I saying that, I think he meant in office as opposed to anything more

:50:15. > :50:21.substantial. That attitude has been confirmed by a number of people

:50:22. > :50:24.since. I suspect that the idea Prime Minister could continue in office

:50:25. > :50:31.having lost such a vote is to calling a phrase "For the birds."

:50:32. > :50:37.Which is why the Honourable member for Uxbridge is right in one bit of

:50:38. > :50:42.his apparent calculations, I am hoping that would allow Opera

:50:43. > :50:48.Minister as he puts it, to negotiate our way back into some sort of

:50:49. > :50:51.European construct on better terms. The second half of that probably is

:50:52. > :50:57.for the birds but on the first half, a vacancy being available, I think

:50:58. > :51:02.that Honourable member has a point. I think the prime ministers should

:51:03. > :51:07.own up on that point because I think his current position lacks some

:51:08. > :51:10.degree of credibility. I think the nature of this debate is already

:51:11. > :51:17.having a big impact on politics. Earlier this week, while people were

:51:18. > :51:21.fixed on this place for the contest between the Honourable member for

:51:22. > :51:27.Uxbridge and the Prime Minister on the European debate, there was the

:51:28. > :51:31.settlement of the Scottish financial has ocean. Tribute should be paid to

:51:32. > :51:36.the First Minister of Scotland and the Deputy First Minister and all

:51:37. > :51:41.sides at the negotiating table in bringing about that settlement. When

:51:42. > :51:44.I wondered about the change in position, the rapid change in

:51:45. > :51:49.position that was taking place, only a couple of weeks ago more the

:51:50. > :51:55.Treasury position was to arrange a ?7 billion deduction from Scottish

:51:56. > :51:58.finances which last week became 3.5 billion, 2 billion last week and

:51:59. > :52:04.ended up at zero by Tuesday afternoon. I am perfectly prepared

:52:05. > :52:11.to suggest that one reason why that change of heart may well have come

:52:12. > :52:15.about is that if it hadn't come about, the Foreign Secretary says

:52:16. > :52:22.there was no change, believe me, the dogs in the street in Scotland no

:52:23. > :52:27.there was a substantial change over the last few weeks. One reason why

:52:28. > :52:30.that change may have come about, I suspect, is that if the Prime

:52:31. > :52:35.Minister were in a position of not being able to deliver his

:52:36. > :52:38.pre-referendum promises more powers to Scotland, he would find it

:52:39. > :52:45.difficult apse to sustain the argument that 27 other European

:52:46. > :52:52.leaders might be delivering the pre-referendum vows to him. I think

:52:53. > :52:59.we are already seeing the aspects of this the bait having a very

:53:00. > :53:05.substantial influence in politics. I ask the Foreign Secretary earlier on

:53:06. > :53:11.about the circumstances that would arise if the vote went for out and

:53:12. > :53:17.when article 50 would be invoked. I have come across, reading, the paper

:53:18. > :53:22.in preparation on exactly that issue. It suggests that the likely

:53:23. > :53:29.formulation would be that there would have to be a vote in this

:53:30. > :53:33.chamber before the government invoked the as ocean. The government

:53:34. > :53:37.could say it is an executive decision and go ahead anyway. It

:53:38. > :53:42.then goes on to argue the following, which is of great important so I am

:53:43. > :53:46.going to quote it. Just to clarify because I answered this point

:53:47. > :53:50.earlier, I have taken advice since that, it is the government position

:53:51. > :53:54.that if the electorate gives a clear decision in this referendum to

:53:55. > :53:59.leave, the government will proceed to serve and Article 50 notice,

:54:00. > :54:04.there would be no need for a further process in this case. His Cessna, no

:54:05. > :54:14.debate, no decision in the house. Fine. -- he says now. That can be

:54:15. > :54:19.defended by saying that it would be a brave person to take the decision

:54:20. > :54:23.that the electorate would vote in a referendum but then go on to debate

:54:24. > :54:28.it. But, the Foreign Secretary should pay some attention to what is

:54:29. > :54:33.in the paper that has the position of what might be happening in the

:54:34. > :54:38.devolved legislatures. "It Is not just about the Carpenters of the

:54:39. > :54:45.legislatures by EU law, -- the competencies. But the effect on the

:54:46. > :54:50.executive to implement that law. The removal of these features, there is

:54:51. > :54:58.another method it would prime face each deal with the devolution

:54:59. > :55:07.legislatures under the seal convention. " I would be interested

:55:08. > :55:11.to know, what is the case that his party is going to make in Scotland

:55:12. > :55:17.in favour of our membership of the EU, which does he think is the most

:55:18. > :55:22.powerful argument he will use in his campaign? If I may say, these are

:55:23. > :55:27.the ones I made earlier, it started with a speech suggesting that the

:55:28. > :55:31.debate should be focused on the importance of Europe in terms of

:55:32. > :55:35.social policy and the environment come solidarity in terms of refugees

:55:36. > :55:39.and the achievements of Europe and keeping peace in Europe and ensuring

:55:40. > :55:43.prosperity and workers rights. These are the arguments we are going to

:55:44. > :55:47.focus on. It is important to pursue the end of this point, the Right

:55:48. > :55:52.Honourable gentleman, the Foreign Secretary, has agreed that no vote

:55:53. > :55:55.in this parliament would be necessary for the government to

:55:56. > :56:02.invoke article 50. Because what Parliament would gain from saying a

:56:03. > :56:05.referendum across the UK. There is the possibility that Scotland has

:56:06. > :56:10.just voted in favour while the UK has voted against, what

:56:11. > :56:16.self-respecting Scottish Parliament, having a vote as is indicated in the

:56:17. > :56:23.sewer convention procedure would not vote in the way the Scottish people

:56:24. > :56:31.had voted in such a referendum by exactly the same argument. -- the

:56:32. > :56:36.I think the case the Right Honourable gentleman is making for

:56:37. > :56:42.proper consultation and constitutional process is just as

:56:43. > :56:46.powerful. Wouldn't he agree with me that actually, whatever the outcome

:56:47. > :56:51.of the referendum, the government remains answerable to Parliament.

:56:52. > :56:59.They should not proceed to any self harming action which a president is

:57:00. > :57:02.moved to article 50 might actually be unless they have consulted

:57:03. > :57:10.Parliament and gained Parliament's and for the next steps, which in my

:57:11. > :57:13.view might require some discussion with our European partners and

:57:14. > :57:19.consultation with other parts of the United Kingdom. I was pointing out

:57:20. > :57:22.that if the government's position would not be necessary because of

:57:23. > :57:27.the referendum vote, where does that leave the Scottish Parliament if

:57:28. > :57:31.under the conventions I have quoted from in the lively document, it is

:57:32. > :57:36.to have a vote, if there has been a positive, they remain vote for

:57:37. > :57:41.Europe in executive same argument as the Foreign Secretary has now had to

:57:42. > :57:43.consult people to announce the Democratic short-circuiting of

:57:44. > :57:55.parliamentary convention. I think the Foreign Secretary should

:57:56. > :58:00.think through the invitations of the argument, someone else has thought

:58:01. > :58:03.it through. This I think is another first having agreed with the right

:58:04. > :58:07.honourable gentleman for the first time in 30 years more or less. I

:58:08. > :58:12.find myself agreeing with the former Prime Minister Tony Blair, if for

:58:13. > :58:17.just about the first time certainly in the last ten to 15 years. Making

:58:18. > :58:22.a comment in a French radio interview, let us hope it is a good

:58:23. > :58:27.translation "In my opinion if United Kingdom votes to leave Europe,

:58:28. > :58:32.Scotland will vote to leave the United Kingdom". As I say, for once

:58:33. > :58:37.I think the former Prime Minister has put his finger on the heart of

:58:38. > :58:42.it. The First Minister of Scotland has eluded to these possibilities as

:58:43. > :58:46.well, she is well justified in doing so. She is well justified because

:58:47. > :58:51.during the referendum campaign of 2014, one of the arguments of the no

:58:52. > :58:56.side is that we would jeopardise our position in the European Union if

:58:57. > :59:00.Scotland voted yes. That sounds ironic now given the process we are

:59:01. > :59:09.going through but nonetheless, that was one of the key are gimmicks.

:59:10. > :59:12.She's justified secondly because during the general election she

:59:13. > :59:16.described exactly the circumstance is as being a change of material

:59:17. > :59:24.circumstance is that would justify another referendum, and then

:59:25. > :59:30.received a mandate of 56 out of the 59 seats in the House of Commons.

:59:31. > :59:36.And when the honourable member from the Labour pension says that we will

:59:37. > :59:41.vote as the United Kingdom, and dismiss it, that was exactly the

:59:42. > :59:50.attitude that resulted in the Labour Party not only not representing the

:59:51. > :59:53.United Kingdom, but only having one member of Parliament. I think that

:59:54. > :00:00.your documents and I have made about Scotland can also be applied into

:00:01. > :00:05.Wales. In Welsh opinion polls, though it is a much less clear-cut

:00:06. > :00:09.position as far as the European issue is concerned. This library

:00:10. > :00:16.also points out that the people of Wales in 2011 voted in a referendum

:00:17. > :00:18.massively, massively, for a referendum settlement that included

:00:19. > :00:23.the instruction that members of the Welsh executive were to be complied

:00:24. > :00:29.with EU law. They already have a pre-existing referendum mandate,

:00:30. > :00:33.which is part of the European cause. What I would say to the government

:00:34. > :00:40.in this campaign in summary is two things. Firstly, to recognise, that

:00:41. > :00:45.in order to build an Hindu majority, which is the objective, they will

:00:46. > :00:48.have two be a great deal more reflection and emphasis on the

:00:49. > :00:53.arguments which are likely to inspire support from a range of

:00:54. > :00:58.political opinion, has opposed to arguments, that will fend off the

:00:59. > :01:02.remaining Eurosceptics who have decided to vote no. Secondly, in

:01:03. > :01:06.particular, to have a great deal more sensitivity to that range of

:01:07. > :01:10.arguments than has been displayed thus far. In the space of the last

:01:11. > :01:14.week since the referendum was announced, the Prime Minister has

:01:15. > :01:18.disregarded the Leader of the Opposition, he has disregarded the

:01:19. > :01:23.views of the first ministers of Wales and Scotland in terms of the

:01:24. > :01:27.timing of the referendum. That is not an auspicious start in having

:01:28. > :01:36.the sort of broad campaign which can result in victory. I am grateful, I

:01:37. > :01:41.find it interesting, fascinating almost that he wants to have a veto

:01:42. > :01:45.for Scotland over Brexit, yet he is very happy for Scotland to be part

:01:46. > :01:49.of the European Union where we have qualified majority voting and we can

:01:50. > :01:55.be voted against our interests time and time again, which really does

:01:56. > :01:59.matter. How can he married the two? I can do it in a number of ways but

:02:00. > :02:04.perhaps one way is to put it forward like this. In terms of an

:02:05. > :02:10.independent country in Europe outside of the euro area, they

:02:11. > :02:15.control 99% of their taxation base, everything except the VAT

:02:16. > :02:18.contribution. In terms Scotland in the United Kingdom, even after the

:02:19. > :02:25.settlement of this week, that figure will be 25%. I regard 25% control of

:02:26. > :02:31.your taxation base is not independent in any meaningful sense,

:02:32. > :02:34.I regard 99% as meaningful independence, and therefore worth

:02:35. > :02:39.the sacrifice in sovereignty that is inevitably made in order to achieve

:02:40. > :02:42.the objective, like environmental protection, like having solidarity

:02:43. > :02:46.when you have a continental crisis. That in essence is the difference

:02:47. > :02:50.between a country being independent in the European Union and being a

:02:51. > :02:55.devolved entity within this United Kingdom. So I hope that the

:02:56. > :02:59.arguments that we have put forward in this campaign will reflect the

:03:00. > :03:04.complexities of the coalition, which is going to be required. Which has

:03:05. > :03:09.two extend far beyond the ranks of the Conservative Party if we are to

:03:10. > :03:16.have a resounding in majority, come June and the referendum. Sir Bill

:03:17. > :03:21.Cash. Thank you very much Madam Deputy Speaker, it is a great

:03:22. > :03:25.pleasure to follow the member for Gordon and the right honourable

:03:26. > :03:31.friend, member for Sussex. I say that because both of them have

:03:32. > :03:36.sought and I think achieved a level of debate which this subject

:03:37. > :03:40.certainly deserves. And it is also true if I may say so to my right

:03:41. > :03:45.honourable friend, and I'm sure he would agree with me, that his

:03:46. > :03:51.grandfather for whom he knows I have the most part admiration, as one who

:03:52. > :03:57.was actually born on the 10th of May 1940, when he assumed the Prime

:03:58. > :04:05.Minister ship of this country, and indeed, the same day on which Hitler

:04:06. > :04:12.invaded Holland and France. But I do think he will agree with me that

:04:13. > :04:15.actually many of the pronouncements of Swainston Churchill on the issue

:04:16. > :04:21.of Europe, did change as time progressed. I would say in

:04:22. > :04:28.particular, he said at one point much later than 1948" we should be

:04:29. > :04:32.associated but not absorbed". I think that the movements that were

:04:33. > :04:39.taking place, that were apparent to surround to need on hand to others,

:04:40. > :04:46.in the late 1940s and 1950s, did have quite a significant impact on

:04:47. > :04:53.the thinking of our great former Prime Minister, Sir Winston himself.

:04:54. > :04:56.I think that in saying we should be associated but not absorbed comedy

:04:57. > :05:04.understood that there were movements afoot that were not in the interests

:05:05. > :05:10.of the United Kingdom. He did also say, that we should tell the truth

:05:11. > :05:14.to the British people. He went on to make clear that what he meant by

:05:15. > :05:21.that was that the British people will follow you if you tell them

:05:22. > :05:24.that truth. Sadly, I believe, is that what has been happening over

:05:25. > :05:31.the recent months and the whole of this debate, is that as I indicated

:05:32. > :05:37.in my response to the Prime Minister's statement in the third of

:05:38. > :05:42.debris, when I mentioned that in my view, he was bypassing not only his

:05:43. > :05:52.promises but his principles, and I said as well, that I thought, that

:05:53. > :05:56.the problem of this expression "Legally binding and irreversible"

:05:57. > :06:00.and a stitch up as I put it with respect to the political decision

:06:01. > :06:05.that I anticipated would be taken in a few days' time which it was of

:06:06. > :06:07.course on the 10th of debris, about it being legally binding and

:06:08. > :06:19.irreversible, would lead on the 23rd clash at 23rd of June, a referendum,

:06:20. > :06:24.something that the voters would not be able to rely upon. It is strong

:06:25. > :06:27.words Madam Deputy Speaker to say that I believe that the voter is

:06:28. > :06:36.already being cheated in this respect. I say that for this reason,

:06:37. > :06:41.and with prudence and care. Because, right at the heart of this as I also

:06:42. > :06:47.said on the third of debris, it is all about voter trust. -- 3rd of

:06:48. > :06:50.February. The truth is that of all of the arguments that have developed

:06:51. > :06:56.over these words are legally binding and irreversible, I noticed that my

:06:57. > :07:04.right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary Eric Axley avoided the

:07:05. > :07:09.word he reversal. -- very carefully avoided the word irreversible.

:07:10. > :07:13.Indeed, they specifically referred to legally binding, and specifically

:07:14. > :07:18.did not refer to the word irreversible. There is a good reason

:07:19. > :07:24.for that, as we have said, in the European scrutiny committee on a

:07:25. > :07:26.number of occasions, in our reports recently, and in our cross

:07:27. > :07:33.examination of the Foreign Secretary the other day. This is about a vote

:07:34. > :07:40.of trust. The fact is that if we take but one example, which is the

:07:41. > :07:45.expression of the removal of the words ever closer union in respect

:07:46. > :07:48.to the United Kingdom, I had to point out to the Foreign Secretary

:07:49. > :07:53.that this is not in the preamble. It is article one of the Treaty of a

:07:54. > :07:58.functioning of the European Union and therefore it requires treaty

:07:59. > :08:02.change. We are not being given treaty change and we are having to

:08:03. > :08:06.rely on an international agreement. I am not going to say that it

:08:07. > :08:09.doesn't have a certain legal character but what I am saying is

:08:10. > :08:15.that it does not bind the European Court of Justice. Nor does it

:08:16. > :08:20.guarantee that other member states may veto any treaty change that may

:08:21. > :08:26.follow later. Nor does it guarantee in any way what the European Court

:08:27. > :08:31.of Justice may say about it. Nor does it preclude other states who

:08:32. > :08:37.are going to be holding referendums no doubt on this subject, and I

:08:38. > :08:39.mentioned Ireland was one in particular, which couldn't possibly,

:08:40. > :08:45.the outcome of which could not possibly be predicted as I heard

:08:46. > :08:53.from another member of Parliament on the today programme yesterday. Would

:08:54. > :08:58.he agree with me that like many Conservative members of Parliament,

:08:59. > :09:03.we wish the Prime Minister well and obviously we are very disappointed

:09:04. > :09:09.at The Fins substance of the agreement that he came back with one

:09:10. > :09:13.week or so ago -- the thin substance. Isn't the offence

:09:14. > :09:18.compounded by the fact that we were led to believe in the Bloomberg

:09:19. > :09:22.speech in 2013 that we were looking at a fundamental renegotiation of

:09:23. > :09:27.the relationship and that clearly sadly has not happened. I had to say

:09:28. > :09:32.that I totally agree with my honourable friend and in fact I made

:09:33. > :09:36.that very point on the 3rd of February in response to the Prime

:09:37. > :09:46.Minister 's statement. He also said that he thought that, our democracy

:09:47. > :09:49.in our Westminster Parliament, was the root of our freedom of choice.

:09:50. > :09:57.That was the essence of what he was saying. I have to say that I do also

:09:58. > :10:03.fear, within the framework of this agreement, and also the development

:10:04. > :10:07.by successive governments in successive treaties, that what was

:10:08. > :10:13.happened, what was originally understood, I voted yes in 1975. Why

:10:14. > :10:22.I pursue the government and harried them over the Maastricht rebellion,

:10:23. > :10:26.is that in fact, the situation changed dramatically, the situation

:10:27. > :10:34.changed dramatically, when the Maastricht Treaty was brought into

:10:35. > :10:39.being. I know that some of his friends are less surprised now. What

:10:40. > :10:42.measure of responsibility does the right honourable gentleman take for

:10:43. > :10:48.all that has happened since he voted yes in 1975? Very little because as

:10:49. > :10:55.I said, these were decisions that were taken in 1972, on the basis of

:10:56. > :11:00.a white paper that said that we would always retain the veto. That

:11:01. > :11:05.is the difference. And in fact that has been whittled away by successive

:11:06. > :11:09.governments, and I have opposed them from the moment that I saw the

:11:10. > :11:12.Maastricht Treaty, to the present day has the right honourable

:11:13. > :11:19.gentleman knows only too well and so do many others. But I do want to go

:11:20. > :11:27.back to this problem about voter trust. Because actually, the current

:11:28. > :11:33.Euro barometer poll suggests a -60 fact of trust throughout the whole

:11:34. > :11:38.of Europe. And only 43% turnout in a European Parliamentary election.

:11:39. > :11:45.There is no connection, between the citizen and the European Union. This

:11:46. > :11:52.is not about Europe. We on this side of the house, love Europe, or many

:11:53. > :11:54.people do, I would simply say this. With two Spanish grand sons and a

:11:55. > :12:07.Spanish granddaughter. Another of my sons married to an

:12:08. > :12:14.Italian. What I would simply say is that you don't have to be

:12:15. > :12:17.anti-European to be pro-democracy. That is a very powerful and

:12:18. > :12:25.important thing for us all to bear in mind. But I am deeply worried

:12:26. > :12:29.about this refusal to engage with the word irreversible for the reason

:12:30. > :12:37.I have given. It is because it cannot be guaranteed. It is like

:12:38. > :12:41.buying a shiny second-hand car saying that you have a guarantee,

:12:42. > :12:47.that is what we are being offered. On the 23rd of June, unless the

:12:48. > :12:51.voter knows they are going to get what the Foreign Secretary described

:12:52. > :12:56.as the whole package, and can be guaranteed that it can be given and

:12:57. > :13:02.that it will come into effect, they have no reason to have any

:13:03. > :13:07.confidence in answering the question to remain or to leave. I think that

:13:08. > :13:12.is a severe indictment and that is why I believe the government is

:13:13. > :13:18.effectively cheating the voter on that day and on that basis. There is

:13:19. > :13:29.also another factor, that is the issue about the democracy of this

:13:30. > :13:35.country. We agreed in our vote in 1972 and in subsequent accession

:13:36. > :13:40.treaties and other treaties that were added to the European

:13:41. > :13:47.communities act. We agreed that we would voluntarily accept this as a

:13:48. > :13:50.diminution of our sovereignty in the sense it was being put through the

:13:51. > :13:56.parliamentary system. My right honourable friend referred to an

:13:57. > :14:02.illusion of sovereignty the other day, I do not wish to elaborate on

:14:03. > :14:06.that but to say it is not an illusion. Sovereignty is about the

:14:07. > :14:11.right of the people to choose in general elections, the kind of laws

:14:12. > :14:19.they wish to be governed under. In this House of Commons, it is no

:14:20. > :14:25.illusion, it is a fact as well as being a question of jurisprudence,

:14:26. > :14:30.that is why it is so important, people fought and died, as my own

:14:31. > :14:34.father died in the last war, fighting for the right of the

:14:35. > :14:41.British people to resist to Rooney. I would simply say that it is a

:14:42. > :14:46.great mistake to talk about sovereignty in terms of an illusion.

:14:47. > :14:54.-- tyranny. There is also a question of how much influence we have in the

:14:55. > :14:58.European Union. I could give further descriptions of the voting system

:14:59. > :15:04.but much of it is decided in smoke-filled rooms and not why

:15:05. > :15:13.voting itself. And yet, we find ourselves increasingly losing...

:15:14. > :15:19.Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Let me begin by saying that while I have

:15:20. > :15:25.enjoyed all of the speeches so far in today's debate, I might pay

:15:26. > :15:32.particular tribute to the member for Mid Sussex for a most moving speech

:15:33. > :15:40.in which I think the whole house found a pleasure hearing. The first

:15:41. > :15:49.week of this referendum campaign has been dominated by the positioning of

:15:50. > :15:55.members of the Cabinet and more broadly members of the Conservative

:15:56. > :15:59.Party. It is of course of interest, we are in politics, we know it is of

:16:00. > :16:05.interest, when a political party is divided. But the first point I want

:16:06. > :16:12.to make today is however interesting that may be, this referendum and the

:16:13. > :16:20.decision facing the country is far more important than the position of

:16:21. > :16:25.any individual politician, the share price of any individual politician,

:16:26. > :16:37.the career ambitions of any politician or the deep divisions

:16:38. > :16:40.within any single political party. It is about the future of the

:16:41. > :16:47.country, the question is whether we remain in the European Union or

:16:48. > :16:54.leave the European Union. Beneath that question, layer upon layer of

:16:55. > :16:59.fundamental fissures, it is to a few of those I would like to address my

:17:00. > :17:04.remarks. The first is the tone in which this referendum campaign is

:17:05. > :17:09.being conducted. I am clearly in favour of the UK remaining in the

:17:10. > :17:17.European Union but I also want to understand the impulse some of those

:17:18. > :17:20.who want to take us out. I do not speak for the leading advocates of

:17:21. > :17:25.Euro scepticism but my constituents and many of those constituents of

:17:26. > :17:31.other members who have concerns about this. I think that it is

:17:32. > :17:38.important for those of us who want the UK to remain in, to acknowledge

:17:39. > :17:41.the sense of loss at the changes robbed by globalisation that have

:17:42. > :17:47.made many people feel that they do not have a stake in the country's

:17:48. > :17:57.story. It is important to acknowledge that sense of lost with

:17:58. > :18:01.respect. Another issue is of course, our economic and trading position. I

:18:02. > :18:10.will not go through the statistics but we are part of this single

:18:11. > :18:11.market of 500 million people. It is the main destination for our

:18:12. > :18:49.exports. A big the main destination for our

:18:50. > :18:56.European Union. One product which has both imports and exports inside

:18:57. > :19:01.the one product. This is how modern manufacturing works. It is a supply

:19:02. > :19:07.chain and a product brought together across different borders in the

:19:08. > :19:12.European Union with no tariffs according to a single set of rules.

:19:13. > :19:16.I am truly grateful to him for giving way. I am pleased he has

:19:17. > :19:22.brought up the issue of trade, does he not agree that given the fact the

:19:23. > :19:27.economic powerhouse of Iceland has managed to negotiate a free trade

:19:28. > :19:31.deal with the world's second-largest economy, does he not share my

:19:32. > :19:35.confidence in Great Britain's ability to be able to negotiate

:19:36. > :19:41.free-trade deals with growing economies around the world? I have

:19:42. > :19:45.looked at some of the trade agreements between individual

:19:46. > :19:51.countries and China and director meant he does as well. These trade

:19:52. > :19:56.agreements are often complete and free access for the Chinese end of

:19:57. > :20:05.the operation with severely limited access for the smaller country. The

:20:06. > :20:09.view I would disagree with is that we should have a choice with trading

:20:10. > :20:14.with the rest of the world and trading with the EU, we should do

:20:15. > :20:19.both. With the time limit, I will make some progress if you would not

:20:20. > :20:23.mind. The underlying issue, to which my right honourable friend the

:20:24. > :20:29.Shadow Foreign Secretary refers is the employment rights. This is not

:20:30. > :20:35.just a trading relationship, not just a market, it is a social Europe

:20:36. > :20:42.aspect to it. 6 million workers in the UK have gained new or enhanced

:20:43. > :20:46.rights to paid holidays. Around 400,000 part-time workers, most of

:20:47. > :20:51.them women, many of them low-paid, have gained improved pay and

:20:52. > :20:56.conditions when equal treatment rights were introduced. I repeat the

:20:57. > :21:03.point I made in my question to my right honourable friend, when people

:21:04. > :21:08.attack red tape and bureaucracy from the EU, it is very often these

:21:09. > :21:11.things that they mean. The right to decency at work. As my right

:21:12. > :21:18.honourable friend said, we write to enjoy time with your newborn baby,

:21:19. > :21:22.this is not needless bureaucracy. This is part of a decent and

:21:23. > :21:33.civilised economy. That too is on the ballot paper when this issue is

:21:34. > :21:39.debated. Then I come to the question raised eloquently by the member for

:21:40. > :21:41.Mid Sussex of security. I will not repeat in a less eloquent manner the

:21:42. > :24:10.argument he General staff, "Unlike the Cold War

:24:11. > :24:13.when things were more binary, in a modern, interconnected world, it is

:24:14. > :24:19.not just the defence capability that will be fundamental to our security,

:24:20. > :24:25.it is going to be a number of other issues as well." The truth is that

:24:26. > :24:29.in today's world, security is a combination of hard power and soft

:24:30. > :24:33.power. When we speak of security in the European Union, we are not

:24:34. > :24:38.talking about a European army but the values that it means to be a

:24:39. > :24:44.member. If you doubt they are important, just talk to the members

:24:45. > :24:48.who live close to Russia's borders. They will tell you that being part

:24:49. > :24:53.of the EU is important to their security. The honourable member

:24:54. > :24:58.asked me about the question of Scotland. The truth is, as we have

:24:59. > :25:03.heard already in the debate, the comments in recent days. The

:25:04. > :25:09.integrity of the United Kingdom is also on the ballot paper when we

:25:10. > :25:17.cast our vote. That is quite clear. It seems to me a great pity that

:25:18. > :25:22.those who would profess to be the most committed to the United Kingdom

:25:23. > :25:33.are cavalier about the future unity of the country which is at stake

:25:34. > :25:36.through this referendum. I believe that whatever the words on the

:25:37. > :25:42.ballot paper, there are fundamental issues for us underlying them.

:25:43. > :25:48.Perhaps the most important of all is what kind of country we are going to

:25:49. > :25:53.be. It would be the easiest thing in the world to look at some of the

:25:54. > :25:58.issues we see on our television screens, the flow of refugees, the

:25:59. > :26:03.economic problems that have afflicted Europe in recent years.

:26:04. > :26:09.And to conclude that the best thing we should do is to walk away. To

:26:10. > :26:18.pull up the drawbridge and say it is all too difficult. I do not believe

:26:19. > :26:23.that an answer, while that may be, it is not leadership. In the end,

:26:24. > :26:28.this is a question of leadership. That is why I believe the most

:26:29. > :26:33.important response to those issues is to resolve to play a full part

:26:34. > :26:40.with our partners and allies in facing up to them. That is why I

:26:41. > :26:47.want to see us remain and continue having the UK is an open, outward

:26:48. > :26:50.looking, confident player in the wider world. It is a pleasure to

:26:51. > :26:55.follow the honourable member from Wolverhampton South East and a very

:26:56. > :26:59.thoughtful contribution. I will just say that in response to Britain

:27:00. > :27:03.walking away, clearly the United Kingdom will never do that. It will

:27:04. > :27:09.never walk away from Europe, simply by geography but also reaching out

:27:10. > :27:12.to the rest of the world. When we talk about migration, we are not

:27:13. > :27:17.going to walk away from our responsibilities there. Again, as a

:27:18. > :27:22.member of the International Development Select Committee, I am

:27:23. > :27:26.delighted we are spending 1.7% of our GDP on international

:27:27. > :27:32.development, going into Syria and helping with the refugee crisis. I

:27:33. > :27:35.feel sorry for the British electorate in many ways, I am glad

:27:36. > :27:39.they are going to get a vote because I think it is important from a

:27:40. > :27:44.democratic point of view because it is something future. But they will

:27:45. > :27:47.have to pick out what is and what is not true in the next four mums

:27:48. > :27:58.because they will hear a lot of propaganda on both sides.

:27:59. > :28:04.And they have got to work out how much truth there is that and I

:28:05. > :28:09.genuinely believe it. Through to those on the other side who want the

:28:10. > :28:15.United Kingdom to remain in the European Union and are using all

:28:16. > :28:19.sorts of arguments, to promote that cause, including my goodness me, it

:28:20. > :28:25.is going to be Armageddon and next day. If not worse. That is not true

:28:26. > :28:31.either. As the Prime Minister said Monday, we are a great country, if

:28:32. > :28:35.we remain in the European Union or leave, we are still going to remain

:28:36. > :28:38.a great country. I am delighted that the Prime Minister has given the

:28:39. > :28:44.British people an opportunity to vote. I thought it would be a great

:28:45. > :28:48.denial of democracy, I have been an MP for 23 years and when I was

:28:49. > :28:52.sitting listening to Tony Blair at the dispatch box telling us that the

:28:53. > :28:56.Lisbon Treaty had now changed it was it'll magically different document,

:28:57. > :28:59.so the British people although they were promised a referendum on the

:29:00. > :29:09.treaty they were now not going to get it. Can I just say that the only

:29:10. > :29:15.party that has ever given Britain the choice of a referendum, is the

:29:16. > :29:24.Labour Party. Secondly, the promise was on the EU constitution, which

:29:25. > :29:27.was not the Lisbon Treaty, it is an entirely different issue. The funny

:29:28. > :29:33.thing is that I looked at both documents and it was about 90% the

:29:34. > :29:40.same, did they cut and pasted? I sat on the Council of Europe, we were

:29:41. > :29:45.getting officials from the European Commission coming to us and telling

:29:46. > :29:50.pass, don't worry, this is virtually the same document. They had one

:29:51. > :29:55.message for the people of the United Kingdom and a completely different

:29:56. > :30:01.message for the European Union. There was a think tank, I think open

:30:02. > :30:03.Europe that made available a consolidated version, side-by-side

:30:04. > :30:08.and there were no substantive differences. The only difference, is

:30:09. > :30:11.that they did not need to ask people, and I will say unashamedly

:30:12. > :30:17.that is the trigger that brought me here. If Tony Blair thought that he

:30:18. > :30:22.was doing this project any favours by denying the referendum, I think

:30:23. > :30:27.he is greatly mistaken because I think the prospect was, he withdrew

:30:28. > :30:33.the referendum promise, is that the British people don't know. And

:30:34. > :30:38.therefore, there may have been, just like Ireland has referenda regularly

:30:39. > :30:40.on treaties and then has a second one, but normally after another

:30:41. > :30:46.discussion with the European Union and they change parts of it to make

:30:47. > :30:51.it more favourable to Ireland. I suspect, that had we voted no to

:30:52. > :30:56.Lisbon, and then him Tony Blair's favourite phrase, the third way,

:30:57. > :30:59.there may have been a different project for the United Kingdom in a

:31:00. > :31:04.more associated relationship with the European Union, one more based

:31:05. > :31:09.on trade rather than on the political entity which of course we

:31:10. > :31:13.know, a number of European leaders want. I actually think that Tony

:31:14. > :31:19.Blair did this project absolutely no favours whatsoever. I would also

:31:20. > :31:24.like to say, that I am voting leave because I love my country, and I

:31:25. > :31:28.actually respect those who remain loving their country as well. Both

:31:29. > :31:33.sides are believe are doing it for the right reasons, for the

:31:34. > :31:42.betterment of their country. My grandfather fought in World War one

:31:43. > :31:47.and my father in World War II, to give people a better world.

:31:48. > :31:52.Devolution is a keystone, bringing power closer to the people. I

:31:53. > :31:56.believe that the leading elites of Europe, might as well be from

:31:57. > :31:59.another planet. Most normal people in this country and indeed

:32:00. > :32:05.throughout the rest of Europe, cannot even name a single member of

:32:06. > :32:09.the commission. We have got scores of these faceless governing elites,

:32:10. > :32:17.many of them on salary is way above the Prime Minister. -- salaries.

:32:18. > :32:22.That reminds me of this great red card, that says that we can block

:32:23. > :32:27.legislation as long as we join together with 14 other countries to

:32:28. > :32:31.block it. That was an idea that was ridiculed by William Hague in this

:32:32. > :32:36.chamber when it was first suggested. He said even if the legislation that

:32:37. > :32:39.we were trying to block was the murder of the first-born, we were

:32:40. > :32:44.unlikely to get 14 other countries in the timescale that was given us,

:32:45. > :32:52.an opportunity to block the legislation. Do you remember how to

:32:53. > :32:57.ensure we are in the rest of Europe, when we tried to stop junk from

:32:58. > :33:02.becoming president, we went on a great salesmanship deal, and how

:33:03. > :33:12.many countries did we get to support us? One. It was one out of 27,

:33:13. > :33:17.Hungary. I'm glad he has raised the issue of the governments failed

:33:18. > :33:21.attempt to stop Mr Junker, the answer is not because the European

:33:22. > :33:24.Union is an evil organisation but because the government was

:33:25. > :33:29.completely useless at finding allies for his efforts. In the labour time

:33:30. > :33:33.we made a similar effort and we were successful in stopping the candidate

:33:34. > :33:38.that we wanted to stop. The answer is to do the job better. I think the

:33:39. > :33:45.answer is for us to have a veto on things that we do not like, that is

:33:46. > :33:48.what sovereignty is all about. I fight a general election, and I want

:33:49. > :33:52.to be able to deliver what is in my manifesto. When I raised it earlier

:33:53. > :33:58.on about that issue with child benefit going to youngsters that

:33:59. > :34:03.have never set foot, I went because there is no injury time now. We

:34:04. > :34:06.still give child benefit to youngsters who have never set foot

:34:07. > :34:13.in the United Kingdom. One of our manifesto pledges was to stop that.

:34:14. > :34:18.Now we are told that we cannot do that. That is the very nub of the

:34:19. > :34:22.problem, we are cutting promises in a manifesto that we cannot deliver

:34:23. > :34:28.because the European Union will not let us. It is all about sovereignty,

:34:29. > :34:31.we talk about the illusion of sovereignty, well if anyone wants to

:34:32. > :34:35.see the illusion of sovereignty, come to the Palace of Westminster.

:34:36. > :34:40.Because if we can't deliver the promises, if we can't deliver the

:34:41. > :34:44.promises that we put in our own manifesto because the governing

:34:45. > :34:52.elites somewhere else will not let us, then this is the illusion of

:34:53. > :34:57.sovereignty here in Westminster. It is exactly the same with reducing

:34:58. > :35:01.VAT, or abolition of the VAT on sanitary towels. It should be

:35:02. > :35:03.something that we decide in Westminster, it should have

:35:04. > :35:10.absolutely nothing to do with the European Union whatsoever. I

:35:11. > :35:13.believe, that if my constituents vote for me and the government and

:35:14. > :35:17.the dead like what we do after five years they can get rid of us and

:35:18. > :35:22.they can change the rules. But that does not happen at the moment. That

:35:23. > :35:28.is one of the reasons why I wish to leave. We talk about this break, his

:35:29. > :35:32.seven-year break. Would anybody buy a car where you have to get

:35:33. > :35:36.permission from somebody else to use the break and after seven years the

:35:37. > :35:43.break goes? We would have two be bonkers to buy a car that was like

:35:44. > :35:48.that. And traders mentioned time and time again, the House of Commons

:35:49. > :35:53.paper that was mentioned, please read it and show that the deficit

:35:54. > :36:01.with goods and services, is huge. And with Germany it is over 27

:36:02. > :36:06.billion alone. I would imagine that Mercedes would be the first to knock

:36:07. > :36:11.on the door of Angela Merkel if it decides to leave and say don't you

:36:12. > :36:16.dare. With the trade agreements that the United Kingdom on to have with

:36:17. > :36:20.the European Union. And also we have the World Trade Organisation that we

:36:21. > :36:28.are signatories to, that will also give us protection as well. I do not

:36:29. > :36:32.believe, that the countries, the other countries are vindictive and

:36:33. > :36:36.spiteful and would want to cut their noses off to spite their faces and

:36:37. > :36:41.indeed if they were like that, is this the sort of people that we want

:36:42. > :36:44.to associate ourselves with? I simply don't believe it. Securities

:36:45. > :36:50.mentioned time and time again, this does worry me. Over 1 million people

:36:51. > :36:57.have come into the European Union, over the last 12 months. And in

:36:58. > :37:02.Germany alone, it is predicted that by 2020, three .6 million will come

:37:03. > :37:07.in, and the chief of Europol has estimated that even currently, there

:37:08. > :37:12.are 5000 jihadists that have managed to come in, with these migrants. At

:37:13. > :37:16.one stage is Germany going to give passports to the people who have

:37:17. > :37:21.arrived in Germany and where are they gain to go? Many of them are

:37:22. > :37:25.going to come to the United Kingdom, they will have German passports and

:37:26. > :37:29.there will be very little that we can do to stop them and that does

:37:30. > :37:33.worry me. I don't think the people of Paris last year sadly felt any

:37:34. > :37:38.safety because they were in the European Union. Whether it was

:37:39. > :37:44.Charlie Hebdo all the nightclub, I mean, that is not security. I want

:37:45. > :37:49.to see us securing our end borders that will allow us to have the power

:37:50. > :37:55.to control who comes into the United Kingdom or not. As the razor wire

:37:56. > :38:00.goes up all over Europe, let us take this one in a lifetime chance to

:38:01. > :38:04.take back control, put the security of our people first, put power back

:38:05. > :38:09.into the hands of the British people. It is the British people

:38:10. > :38:13.that I would like to end with. We have not had a referendum on this

:38:14. > :38:16.issue since 1975, we were told by the Foreign Secretary that they

:38:17. > :38:21.would be no second referendum and I believe him. This would be the own

:38:22. > :38:29.new opportunity that we will get in my lifetime to take control back, to

:38:30. > :38:32.trade with them, to be part of them. But to have our own sovereignty to

:38:33. > :38:38.return to this country, I hope the people of Britain will take that

:38:39. > :38:43.chance on Freedom day. Thank you very much indeed Madam Deputy

:38:44. > :38:47.Speaker, pleasure to follow the honourable gentleman. Though little

:38:48. > :38:51.that I agree with him but I appreciate the way he projected it.

:38:52. > :38:54.He will know and some people will know, we'll remember the late Eric

:38:55. > :39:06.Forth. When he was the MP for Bromley. Very little did I agree

:39:07. > :39:10.with him either politically but I do remember him saying in this chamber

:39:11. > :39:16.quite clearly wants, when the two front benches agree with each other,

:39:17. > :39:21.then start counting the spoons. I think that is a reasonable idea.

:39:22. > :39:24.When you get not just the two front benches but the leader of the

:39:25. > :39:28.third-largest party agreeing as well, then I think we need to be

:39:29. > :39:35.very careful in our assessment of what is going on. They might be

:39:36. > :39:40.right, but of course, they might not. And once there is a consensus

:39:41. > :39:48.across these things, it becomes almost, almost impossible to deviate

:39:49. > :39:52.from it. I don't normally take part in European affairs debates because

:39:53. > :39:58.they have a tendency, to become almost theological in their content.

:39:59. > :40:02.And in the way that they are conducted. But I did want to make a

:40:03. > :40:07.few observations Madam Deputy Speaker on this particular subject.

:40:08. > :40:16.I was one of a small minority on this side of the house, that was

:40:17. > :40:19.always in favour of a referendum. And, I joined indeed a group called

:40:20. > :40:26.labour for a referendum before the last election. I was a minority

:40:27. > :40:29.among the Labour members for a referendum, in so far I was not

:40:30. > :40:33.doing it from a fixated position of wanting to get out from the European

:40:34. > :40:38.Union. I came to the conclusion some years ago, that I think the

:40:39. > :40:40.honourable members from the other side mentioned. That things have

:40:41. > :40:44.changed so much in the intervening 40 years, that I think it is time

:40:45. > :40:50.that the British people were consulted again, on this issue and

:40:51. > :40:55.it is the only way to bring any kind of lasting settlement to it. Others

:40:56. > :41:02.in my party I think mistakenly resisted the idea. Even though, the

:41:03. > :41:11.Prime Minister in 2013 brought forward a bill, to authorise

:41:12. > :41:18.referendum. But then the similarity between that in 2013 and what Harold

:41:19. > :41:26.Wilson did in 1975 was almost identical. In 1975 it was a device

:41:27. > :41:33.to prevent the Labour party to split asunder and in 2013 it was exactly

:41:34. > :41:36.the same thing, but to stop the Conservative Party spitting. People

:41:37. > :41:41.on my side resisted it, they said quite rightly that a referendum in

:41:42. > :41:45.the intervening period would only create uncertainty. And uncertainty

:41:46. > :41:48.is bad for business and one only needs to look at performance of the

:41:49. > :41:56.pound on each national exchange markets this week, although I think

:41:57. > :41:59.foreign-exchange traders are somewhat because the referendum has

:42:00. > :42:04.been around for four years and if it was going to take place it was clear

:42:05. > :42:05.he going to take place, once the current government won the last

:42:06. > :42:21.election. I am sure the international finance

:42:22. > :42:26.committee will be heartened by his solicitude on the international

:42:27. > :42:31.markets but on a serious point, does he not agree with me that there is a

:42:32. > :42:38.gap in the market for those decent, patriotically thoughtful Labour

:42:39. > :42:44.voters who are Eurosceptic and leave advantage lies outside the European

:42:45. > :42:48.Union but are being let down by their own front bench who are

:42:49. > :42:53.effectively ignoring those views? If I have time, I will come to that in

:42:54. > :43:00.amount, I broadly agree with the point he is making. It has validity

:43:01. > :43:04.right across this argument. As the previous speaker said, there are

:43:05. > :43:09.those who say their love their country but want to opt out, then

:43:10. > :43:13.others who love their country and want to stay in. The other reason I

:43:14. > :43:21.think there was a failure of leadership is not so much on the

:43:22. > :43:25.business considerations but those who were saying that the British

:43:26. > :43:30.public may come to the wrong conclusion. Therefore the only way

:43:31. > :43:35.to vent that and protect against it was to not allow them the choice in

:43:36. > :43:40.the first place and I think that was a mistake. I am not saying it is the

:43:41. > :43:43.only reason the Labour Party did not win the general election last year

:43:44. > :43:52.but for those who were standing against the referendum, it would not

:43:53. > :43:56.have gone in our favour. The member for Wolverhampton South East, and

:43:57. > :44:07.the right honourable member for Aylesbury, on the original Whalton

:44:08. > :44:11.bill, everybody knows it was not the member for Stockton's will, but the

:44:12. > :44:19.true number one in the private members ballot. An entertaining and

:44:20. > :44:22.eliminating experience it was. The honourable member. To an South, I

:44:23. > :44:34.think it was, standing up in the heart of proceedings -- Stockton

:44:35. > :44:40.South. Sitting down, for the next five weeks and not saying a word

:44:41. > :44:44.until the bill continued its proceedings and he indulged in the

:44:45. > :44:52.normal civilities we do at the end of committee meetings. He was by far

:44:53. > :44:58.the most active person on the whole committee, although the honourable

:44:59. > :45:03.member for war lantern Southeast was more convincing. The whole thing was

:45:04. > :45:14.a pantomime -- Wolverhampton South East. When I drew the parallel

:45:15. > :45:19.before between Wilson, Harold Wilson's manoeuvres in 1975 and the

:45:20. > :45:24.current Prime Minister, they do work to some degree. But Harold Wilson

:45:25. > :45:31.unfortunately kept the Labour Party together for less than a decade and

:45:32. > :45:37.then it split over this very issue. It is an important aspect, in 1975,

:45:38. > :45:42.I did vote no. People over there say they voted yes, people over here

:45:43. > :45:51.voting no, and I think it was for the same reasons. I am less inclined

:45:52. > :45:58.to vote no this time but I have to say, I have many concerns with how

:45:59. > :46:02.the new operates. I agree strangely enough with the honourable member

:46:03. > :46:07.for Uxbridge and sell Bryce Lipp, I feel Britain can have a future

:46:08. > :46:12.outside the European Union but I just don't think it is the best

:46:13. > :46:17.future. I do not think it is optimal for the British people and I clearly

:46:18. > :46:20.disagree with the honourable member, I will conclude this point and then

:46:21. > :46:28.give way, where I disagree that a great disagree with the honourable

:46:29. > :46:33.member for Oxbridge, it is arisen bull and laughable idea so you can

:46:34. > :46:42.vote no today and bowl yes tomorrow, it is untenable. I add my the

:46:43. > :46:46.honourable member, his attempt to try and breathe life into this idea

:46:47. > :46:54.that there could be a second vote by saying the government not should not

:46:55. > :46:58.immediately react to a vote, there will not be a second vote and any

:46:59. > :47:03.circumstances and we should have the courage to face up to it. The

:47:04. > :47:08.honourable member for Oxbridge also wrote recently that the British

:47:09. > :47:13.people are always right and I agree with him on that. Does he agree with

:47:14. > :47:17.me and the Mayor of London that in or out, the British people will be

:47:18. > :47:25.right and what are the thoughts we might hold today, we need to respect

:47:26. > :47:29.that. I would not use such an absolutist view, the British people

:47:30. > :47:38.may or may not be right, that is for a higher judgment. But what I would

:47:39. > :47:42.say as a Democrat, whatever they vote for, it is incumbent on the

:47:43. > :47:47.government and this Parliament to abide by it, that is what I would

:47:48. > :47:57.say. If in later years we discover it was a great mistake, sailor V. --

:47:58. > :48:02.that's life. The honourable member for Uxbridge, I feel his cuddly

:48:03. > :48:06.should have more to do with the Tory leadership than the best interests

:48:07. > :48:15.of the country or the best interests for Europe. -- I feel his comments

:48:16. > :48:23.is more about the leadership rather than the country. It will be about

:48:24. > :48:30.the overall impression of what BT you use, what is Britain's place in

:48:31. > :48:36.the family of nations? And the merits of the advocates as well of

:48:37. > :48:41.the arguments. With claim and counterclaim attempting to be clear.

:48:42. > :48:45.We have the strange spectre at the moment of the Secretary of State for

:48:46. > :48:51.Justice in open dispute with the Attorney General over the legal

:48:52. > :48:56.status of the agreement that the prime in as the brought back at the

:48:57. > :49:01.weekend. We saw that rehearsed again this afternoon. I am sure that is an

:49:02. > :49:06.argument that will come put it the thing for the next four mums. I also

:49:07. > :49:11.think the British people will be sick of the whole discussion by the

:49:12. > :49:15.time we get to the 23rd of June. I disagree with the member for Ribble

:49:16. > :49:21.Valley, I do not disagree, but he says it is the first opportunity in

:49:22. > :49:29.his life to vote on this, it is a second chance I have had. I

:49:30. > :49:36.certainly hope I will vote on 23rd of June but it is of critical

:49:37. > :49:42.importance that we have to take it seriously. We do not need it to

:49:43. > :49:51.degenerate into an argument between two groups zealots, or those wanting

:49:52. > :49:55.the status quo in Europe but we should also, this is my final point,

:49:56. > :50:03.others have said this, not just about the impact that the vote will

:50:04. > :50:07.have an relations but the relations within these islands, I mean all of

:50:08. > :50:12.these islands. If there is a negative vote, there will be other

:50:13. > :50:17.parts of the UK and it will have a negative vote, it will have a direct

:50:18. > :50:24.and negative impact, I am certain, on relations with the Republic of

:50:25. > :50:28.Ireland. There will be various convoluted reasons why that would be

:50:29. > :50:32.the case and given the progress we have made in that particular

:50:33. > :50:39.direction in recent years, I feel that is not a risk worth taking.

:50:40. > :50:42.Members have been taking full advantage of interventions and we

:50:43. > :50:47.are running rather late, I will have to reduce it to eight minutes and if

:50:48. > :50:52.members are still generous on interventions, I will have to reduce

:50:53. > :50:58.it further. I am grateful for your advice Madam Deputy Speaker but I am

:50:59. > :51:02.pleased to follow the honourable member. Why would they are little

:51:03. > :51:07.indulgence on all sides of the house on this question. I think it is

:51:08. > :51:13.highly irresponsible to bring in the Northern Ireland peace process as

:51:14. > :51:17.yet another scare of voting leave in this referendum. There was an open

:51:18. > :51:20.border between the Republic of Ireland and Northern Ireland when

:51:21. > :51:25.Ireland was not a member of the European Union and we were. And

:51:26. > :51:28.there will be perfectly reasonable arrangements if the United Kingdom

:51:29. > :51:34.votes to leave the European Union with the Republic of Ireland. There

:51:35. > :51:38.are participants in the peace process on both sides of the debate,

:51:39. > :51:42.they are talking perfectly constructively together. They are

:51:43. > :51:46.not going to allow this to become an obstruction to peace in Northern

:51:47. > :51:49.Ireland and nor should we talk it up because I think that is

:51:50. > :51:54.irresponsible. If I may make a point, I am not advocating a second

:51:55. > :51:59.vote. If we vote leave in this referendum, as I expect we will,

:52:00. > :52:03.that will do for me. The point I am making is that article 50 is a

:52:04. > :52:08.provision of the treaties which we will have just rejected. The idea we

:52:09. > :52:12.are bound to follow article 50 provisions after rejecting the whole

:52:13. > :52:17.of the treaties seems rather odd. Given that these treaties were

:52:18. > :52:21.created by 28 member states negotiating together, 28 member

:52:22. > :52:24.states negotiating together to send our membership on the European Union

:52:25. > :52:31.may be a more sensible approach. But it should be decided by Parliament,

:52:32. > :52:36.not the government acting on Royal prerogative. I am actually grateful

:52:37. > :52:42.to him for giving way, you say that once we say no to the EU, we all up

:52:43. > :52:46.and do it all on our terms and then you expect a cordial relationship

:52:47. > :52:50.afterwards while we renegotiate on the terms that are favourable to us

:52:51. > :52:55.afterwards. Is that not just completely and utterly incompatible.

:52:56. > :53:00.Is he seriously suggesting that after the British people have

:53:01. > :53:03.rejected the treaty on the functioning of the European Union

:53:04. > :53:08.and the Treaty on the European Union, that our European partners

:53:09. > :53:13.will say you have rejected this but you are bound by it, that is absurd.

:53:14. > :53:17.It is far more likely that Parliament will want to discuss the

:53:18. > :53:21.matter and the government will produce a proper White paper and we

:53:22. > :53:26.will proceed in a sensible manner, not in a precipitous manner. The

:53:27. > :53:31.only reason they are raising this is as another scare story. We are not

:53:32. > :53:36.having it. The member for Lewisham also talks about uncertainty. Every

:53:37. > :53:39.time we have a general election there is a certain amount of

:53:40. > :53:45.uncertainty. At the next general election, if there is any

:53:46. > :53:50.opportunity for his party to be elected, there will be uncertainty

:53:51. > :53:54.in the markets. You get more uncertainty where there is no

:53:55. > :53:58.democracy. Look at Greece and Spain and the Eurozone, that is

:53:59. > :54:03.uncertainty. That is the uncertainty we want to get out. If we vote

:54:04. > :54:08.leave, we know what will happen, we will get our power is back, control

:54:09. > :54:11.over our borders. We will be able to spend the money we send to the

:54:12. > :54:20.European Union on how we want to spend it rather than subsidising our

:54:21. > :54:24.European nations. It is a lot of money, we will be able to pay for

:54:25. > :54:27.roads in Scotland and the universities and for the investment

:54:28. > :54:33.in science and research that we need and son. The real Western in this

:54:34. > :54:38.debate Madam Deputy Speaker is what happens if we vote remain. What will

:54:39. > :54:43.be the new laws that will be imposed on us after we vote to remain. What

:54:44. > :54:47.judgments is the European Court of Justice going to visit upon us over

:54:48. > :54:52.which we have no control? What about the next treaty? Because we know

:54:53. > :54:56.there will be another fiscal union treaty like the one the Prime

:54:57. > :55:01.Minister vetoed a few years ago. In this agreement, it states that

:55:02. > :55:04.member states whose currency is not the euro shall not impede the

:55:05. > :55:10.intimidation of legal axe greatly linked to the euro area and shall

:55:11. > :55:15.refrain from measures that would jeopardise the attainment of

:55:16. > :55:22.monetary union. It sounds like we are giving up that vetoed, we would

:55:23. > :55:26.not be able to veto a fiscal union treaty. Especially if this is

:55:27. > :55:30.legally binding and irreversible, we will be stuffed. However that Treaty

:55:31. > :55:35.affects our interests, we can even have a referendum on it, if we abide

:55:36. > :55:39.by this agreement, we will not be able to stop it. You talk about

:55:40. > :55:45.uncertainty but I think it is safer to leave. I declare an interest

:55:46. > :55:48.because I do wish us to leave, I would also praise my right

:55:49. > :55:55.honourable friend from Mid Sussex for raising the tone of this debate.

:55:56. > :55:59.Giving us an historical perspective. He underlines that we are at a

:56:00. > :56:04.turning point in the history of our country. And I am struck that the

:56:05. > :56:10.Shadow Foreign Secretary, when he spoke, reminds me that more than a

:56:11. > :56:14.generation has passed since the last referendum, when his father was

:56:15. > :56:19.opposed and my father was in favour and today, he is in favour and I am

:56:20. > :56:23.opposed. I shan't speak for my father in this debate but there has

:56:24. > :56:27.been a reversal of roles. The real question is should the debate be

:56:28. > :56:33.about the past or the future? We do not live in a world how it was after

:56:34. > :56:38.the Second World War which was pre-globalisation. Pre-global trade

:56:39. > :56:44.in the pre-computers and the Internet, pre-space age, many

:56:45. > :56:50.scientific discoveries that we have today. Can I just say that I am very

:56:51. > :56:53.grateful to him by what he has said and I have huge respect for his

:56:54. > :56:58.views but would he not agree that you cannot make a serious, real

:56:59. > :57:00.judgment about the future unless you are quite clear about what went

:57:01. > :57:13.before? The EU institutions are what we

:57:14. > :57:17.should be ready to recognise but while we must never forget the

:57:18. > :57:20.forces of history, the tragic errors of the past that have shaped the

:57:21. > :57:26.present on our continent, we must also have the courage to embrace the

:57:27. > :57:29.change in our society and in the world which will otherwise see a

:57:30. > :57:35.stranded and clinging to outdated ideas and constructs. Our main

:57:36. > :57:44.contention is the EU is exactly this outdated construct. Very briefly.

:57:45. > :57:48.Just ask him if he agrees that we would effectively be in the same

:57:49. > :57:54.tier of Europe dominated by other countries? That is a whole new

:57:55. > :57:58.argument. This referendum represented turning point in itself

:57:59. > :58:01.but also just one point on a trend which is increasingly paralysing our

:58:02. > :58:06.entire continent whose unity is being shattered by the very

:58:07. > :58:13.institution it was intended to unite. Look at the Eurozone, look at

:58:14. > :58:19.the Schengen free travel area. In 1975, my party was enthusiastic for

:58:20. > :58:23.membership of the European immunities, today, I believe Mike

:58:24. > :58:29.party knows the world is utterly different. The strongest arguments

:58:30. > :58:32.remain as they appear to be the ones that we are determined not to

:58:33. > :58:39.participate in the three main purposes of the EU. We will not join

:58:40. > :58:45.the Europa, the free travel area, we will not be in political union, so

:58:46. > :58:49.what is the point of being in this arrangement when we are so opposed

:58:50. > :58:53.its principal purposes? A certain amount of this debate, we have heard

:58:54. > :59:02.before as my honourable friend will agonise on the front bench. --

:59:03. > :59:07.recognise. We have opted out but the problem is these opt outs don't

:59:08. > :59:13.always work. We were told the social chapter was binding and

:59:14. > :59:17.irreversible. We were told then, Europe is changing, it is all going

:59:18. > :59:23.our way, that is what they said then and I cannot believe I have heard it

:59:24. > :59:27.again, the Foreign Secretary said, national where possible, Europe

:59:28. > :59:32.where necessary. John Major consider this as his principal triumph and it

:59:33. > :59:35.was going to reverse the centralising tendencies of the

:59:36. > :59:39.European court of justice and we were always going to be leading in

:59:40. > :59:44.Europe and the Foreign Secretary said, we will be fighting with

:59:45. > :59:49.like-minded states, I quote, and leading in a reformed EU. We have

:59:50. > :59:52.heard all this before. These are the same deceits. In order to persuade

:59:53. > :59:58.people to support something we do not really want. And we were told

:59:59. > :00:03.over Maastricht, if we veto it, it will be a leap in the dark and what

:00:04. > :00:07.is he saying today? It is a leap in the dark. Of course the giveaway

:00:08. > :00:11.this afternoon is when the Foreign Secretary said, of course there is

:00:12. > :00:16.more to do. If we stay in the European Union, there will be a lot

:00:17. > :00:19.more to do because of course, this agreement is so inconsequential,

:00:20. > :00:25.even if it were to be irreversible and legally binding. What happens if

:00:26. > :00:29.we do vote to remain? That is what the Government needs to answer. What

:00:30. > :00:35.will happen? Last time we were told before a referendum, there would be

:00:36. > :00:40.no loss of essential national sovereignty. Essentials. That is a

:00:41. > :00:45.useful word because of course it did knew did that no loss of sovereignty

:00:46. > :00:48.of its meaning. We have the same weasel words coming out of the

:00:49. > :00:53.offices of the Government today and if the British people are deceived

:00:54. > :00:59.again, and we vote to remain, it will have resolved nothing. We will

:01:00. > :01:02.be back here in five, seven years' time, either demanding another

:01:03. > :01:06.referendum or just deciding to get out, because that is the trend. We

:01:07. > :01:12.will be facing the same problems, we will have the same problems and we

:01:13. > :01:15.will be conflicted with the same problems and the problems by then

:01:16. > :01:19.will be worse. I believe the safer choice is to leave the European

:01:20. > :01:25.union and our security depends upon Nato and our alliances with our own

:01:26. > :01:31.people and working with allies. The idea we can only work with allies if

:01:32. > :01:36.we stay in is yet another deceit. Always a great pleasure to follow

:01:37. > :01:39.the honourable gentleman even though I don't agree with anything that he

:01:40. > :01:46.said apart from perhaps, what he said about the right honourable

:01:47. > :01:51.gentleman Speech at the beginning of the bait which is one of the best

:01:52. > :01:57.ones I have heard in the House. It was a pleasure to listen to. I feel

:01:58. > :02:03.he raised the level of this debate. I want to speak about Patrick

:02:04. > :02:12.Dawson. The British people are deeply patriotically. According --

:02:13. > :02:18.patriotism. According to a recent survey, the overwhelming majority of

:02:19. > :02:22.British people describe themselves as proud of our country. I think

:02:23. > :02:25.that means they want to see a strong country, a strong economy and more

:02:26. > :02:34.secure country and a country that stands tall in the world. It is my

:02:35. > :02:40.view that there is a very powerful, progressive, patriotically for

:02:41. > :02:44.remaining in the European Union. Because I believe and many others in

:02:45. > :02:49.this House do as well, that we are stronger, prosperous, safer and more

:02:50. > :02:56.influential, as a member of the European Union. The challenges that

:02:57. > :03:01.we face in the 21st-century will not be solved by pulling up the

:03:02. > :03:05.drawbridge and do not stop at the White Cliffs of Dover because we

:03:06. > :03:09.achieve more working together than we do alone. We have proud history

:03:10. > :03:14.as a trading nation and we have a proud history. A proud history in

:03:15. > :03:20.providing leadership in international and European

:03:21. > :03:25.corporation. We, the patriotically progressive pro-Europeans, are the

:03:26. > :03:29.optimists, I believe. We believe that by working with others, we

:03:30. > :03:35.don't lose power but we assert and augment our power in the world. It

:03:36. > :03:39.is my view that the anti-Europeans are the pessimists in this debate.

:03:40. > :03:44.Pessimist about what we as a country can achieve by working with others.

:03:45. > :03:51.Pessimistic in saying that we will always be the losers when we try to

:03:52. > :03:54.work with others. But the dish prime ministers of different political

:03:55. > :04:01.colours have disagreed with that assumption. They have driven

:04:02. > :04:03.international corporation and have driven the establishment of

:04:04. > :04:09.international organisations. The great post-war Labour Government

:04:10. > :04:19.work instrumental in setting up Nato. As the right honourable member

:04:20. > :04:21.for Sussex said in his powerful contribution, his grandfather,

:04:22. > :04:25.Winston Churchill, played an incredibly important role in

:04:26. > :04:33.preserving the peace in post-war period. Edward heath took us into

:04:34. > :04:39.the European economic community and Margaret Thatcher very successfully

:04:40. > :04:46.drove the creation of the European single market. Tony Blair, someone I

:04:47. > :04:48.am very proud of, he won three elections ask, successfully pushed

:04:49. > :04:54.for the enlargement of the European Union. I don't often agree with the

:04:55. > :04:58.current Prime Minister and the leader of the Conservative Party but

:04:59. > :05:02.I thought he made a very powerful case on Monday for our membership of

:05:03. > :05:07.the European Union and I believe that case goes beyond the deal he

:05:08. > :05:11.struck. In his closing remarks, he said, and I think this is right,

:05:12. > :05:20.this is no time to divide the West in the face, and I quote, of Putin's

:05:21. > :05:23.aggression in the East and Islamic extremism in the South. I also agree

:05:24. > :05:27.with him that there is strength in numbers and the choice of this

:05:28. > :05:34.referendum is between an even greater return inside a reformed EU

:05:35. > :05:39.and a great leap into the unknown. Many column inches and much time on

:05:40. > :05:46.the broadcast media in the last few days has been dedicated to the

:05:47. > :05:49.divisions in the Conservative Party over our membership of the European

:05:50. > :05:54.Union and indeed of the intricacies of the deal that was struck and

:05:55. > :06:00.probably the latest English lunch that we might have seen in living

:06:01. > :06:06.memory on Friday in Brussels. But actually, I hope and I think that

:06:07. > :06:09.the bigger argument about why it is in our interest to remain in the

:06:10. > :06:16.European Union will actually in the end determine how people vote at

:06:17. > :06:19.this referendum on the 23rd June. Briefly, I want to say something

:06:20. > :06:25.about three key arguments at the heart of what is patriotic and

:06:26. > :06:29.progressive for our membership. Let's take the economy focused. We

:06:30. > :06:34.trade more with the rest of the European Union than we do with any

:06:35. > :06:41.big economy around the world, more than with US, China or India. As a

:06:42. > :06:45.member of this, we are a gateway to the rest of that market and that is

:06:46. > :06:49.why we are able so successfully to attract inward investment from

:06:50. > :06:56.companies in the European Union and beyond. In my own... On the

:06:57. > :07:00.outskirts of my constituency, Jaguar Land Rover have invested in a huge

:07:01. > :07:05.and award-winning engine factory which capacity will employ 1500

:07:06. > :07:09.people. Their chief financial officer recently said, and I quote,

:07:10. > :07:14.any split from the European Union would damage trade for the European

:07:15. > :07:17.business and he also cautions against barriers that would arise in

:07:18. > :07:23.the event of the UK leaving the EU. I am extremely grateful for you

:07:24. > :07:28.giving way. She makes a powerful point about the role of trade and

:07:29. > :07:31.the importance of trade. The interconnectedness of trade also.

:07:32. > :07:35.Does she agree that the same interconnectedness applies to the

:07:36. > :07:39.role of higher education, university share funding across Europe. They

:07:40. > :07:45.come together and working together with research grants and research as

:07:46. > :07:51.one European Union, we are using our expertise with others and solving

:07:52. > :07:58.global problems together. I do agree and Wolverhampton and universities

:07:59. > :08:01.in the UK more widely have made this point clear, that they think there

:08:02. > :08:08.is great strength in universities across our country working together

:08:09. > :08:11.with other universities in Europe and research institutes across

:08:12. > :08:15.Europe and they do benefit from the investment and funding we receive by

:08:16. > :08:23.being a member of the European Union. As a Labour MP and alongside

:08:24. > :08:30.my colleagues, we will be making a case for staying in the EU as well.

:08:31. > :08:36.Thanks to the last Labour Government signing up to the social chapter,

:08:37. > :08:39.the Government I am proud of and a decision I was proud that we made

:08:40. > :08:45.when we were indictment, working people across the country have

:08:46. > :08:50.employment rights and protections we would not have otherwise. Such as

:08:51. > :08:54.paid annual leave, writes for agency workers and writes for part-time

:08:55. > :09:02.workers and any of these people affected are women. -- many of

:09:03. > :09:07.these. As the TUC general secretary recently said, these protections

:09:08. > :09:11.will be on the ballot paper come the 23rd June because frankly, I don't

:09:12. > :09:15.think we can trust this Tory Government to maintain those

:09:16. > :09:20.protections if we were to leave. There is also a powerful security

:09:21. > :09:26.case for us to stay in the EU. Prior to the European Arrest Warrant when

:09:27. > :09:30.there was a terrorist in our own country the French suspected bombing

:09:31. > :09:40.the Paris metro, it took us ten years to extradite that suspect.

:09:41. > :09:43.Whereas, in 2005, the terrorist who attempted to bomb the London

:09:44. > :09:47.Underground, he fled to Rome, EU was extradited back to the UK in under

:09:48. > :09:53.five weeks. I think that tells you something about the strength of

:09:54. > :09:58.pooling resources, expertise and sharing information about criminals

:09:59. > :10:02.who do not respect borders. I will just very briefly touch on what I

:10:03. > :10:06.think the weaknesses of the counter argument. It seems to me that those

:10:07. > :10:10.who want to leave have a responsibility to tell us what out

:10:11. > :10:17.looks like and it seems to me, there is a choice between whether on the

:10:18. > :10:21.one hand, we don't have access to the single market with British

:10:22. > :10:24.business being hit, with trade barriers and Harris, and on the

:10:25. > :10:29.other hand, access to the single market while still playing into the

:10:30. > :10:32.EU budget, still accepting free movement of people and still

:10:33. > :10:37.accepting all the rules without having a seat at the table. I think

:10:38. > :10:42.they are major inconsistencies in their argument as I pointed out

:10:43. > :10:45.earlier. This idea that somehow we are powerless within the European

:10:46. > :10:49.Union, but if we were to leave, we could get precisely what we want on

:10:50. > :10:54.our own terms. That is not believable for me. I hope the

:10:55. > :11:02.patriotically aggressive case will win out and I hope the British

:11:03. > :11:06.people vote to remain. I would like to start today by paying tribute to

:11:07. > :11:12.the Prime Minister David Cameron. It is not something I have a society

:11:13. > :11:16.always done from this place. He has delivered on our manifesto

:11:17. > :11:19.commitment for delivering a referendum. He is the first

:11:20. > :11:28.Conservative leader and Prime Minister to do so. In over 40 years.

:11:29. > :11:36.Something even Margaret Thatcher did not deliver and she did not

:11:37. > :11:39.negotiate any reforms pre-any referendum, bar getting the rebate

:11:40. > :11:44.back for the United Kingdom. Soak all credit where it is due. Whilst

:11:45. > :11:50.the Prime Minister may not have obtained the impossible, I think

:11:51. > :11:54.many of us think that he has obtained the improbable in that many

:11:55. > :11:56.of the demands of... Many people thought he would never get what he

:11:57. > :12:06.did in Brussels. On that point, does it not strike

:12:07. > :12:11.you, my colleague, as odd that the Prime Minister already gave in by

:12:12. > :12:15.saying he wanted to stay in the EU before the negotiations started.

:12:16. > :12:20.With all negotiating, negotiating any deal, it is always difficult to

:12:21. > :12:24.set out the defined and true position at the outset of any

:12:25. > :12:27.negotiation. Otherwise you wouldn't negotiate the position you want to

:12:28. > :12:38.find yourself in at the end. I don't agree with that. I think he achieved

:12:39. > :12:42.more than many thought he would. For some even if he had parted the

:12:43. > :12:49.English Channel it wouldn't be enough. I think it is a good reform

:12:50. > :12:53.package. I agree with the member for Wolverhampton about tone and I think

:12:54. > :12:56.the Parliamentary debate and the national debate needs to be done in

:12:57. > :13:01.the right tone, the right language and a measured way and a respectful

:13:02. > :13:06.way. I hope that will be the case. We have made, heard reference to

:13:07. > :13:12.scaremongering today and in the media. But it is Nigel Farage and

:13:13. > :13:22.the recent Oxford University debate that said I quote, the EU referendum

:13:23. > :13:27.will be settled by security. The member for haarage in his

:13:28. > :13:34.penultimate paragraph suggested that skugt was a key -- security was a

:13:35. > :13:43.key issue as well. It is unfortunate that the issue of scaremongering is

:13:44. > :13:54.coming into it. It is legitimate to talk about national security. The

:13:55. > :13:58.member for Barnsley Central I think rightly rose in the daily mirror and

:13:59. > :14:03.wrote, the threat posed to the United Kingdom from the security are

:14:04. > :14:09.like the threats posed to the rest of Europe. He is right. Common

:14:10. > :14:13.threats require a common response. Europe's threats are our threats

:14:14. > :14:18.too. The UK's threats are Europe's threats and in an unsafe world it is

:14:19. > :14:23.not the time to be walking away from our allies. This is a time to stand

:14:24. > :14:29.together. This is not the time for the United Kingdom to be quitting

:14:30. > :14:39.Europe. My view is that the UK is safer in a reformed European union

:14:40. > :14:43.and the Euan piano union is safer -- European Union is safer with

:14:44. > :14:49.ourselves by their side. I would like the mention the Paris attacks.

:14:50. > :14:53.Some say that it is less likely that the United Kingdom will be subject

:14:54. > :15:00.to Paris-style attacks if we leave. I disagree and I think it is a very

:15:01. > :15:04.bold statement to make. Some say that the Syrian refugee crisis has

:15:05. > :15:09.had an impact on terrorist incidents across Europe and therefore possibly

:15:10. > :15:17.later in the UK and that may well be the xas. -- case. But specifically

:15:18. > :15:21.on the nationality of those involved in the Paris attacks, the majority

:15:22. > :15:26.were EU nationals and in fact it was led by a Belgian national. Some have

:15:27. > :15:32.referenced open borders. We don't have open borders in the United

:15:33. > :15:37.Kingdom. That is inaccurate and unfortunately misleading. I will

:15:38. > :15:45.finish this point. Under Schengen we don't have open boarders. That is a

:15:46. > :15:49.fact. I'm grateful, we do have open borders for Belgians. They can come

:15:50. > :15:54.here without so much as a by your leaf. They come and we can't refuse

:15:55. > :15:59.them unless we have specific evidence. If we can make them apply

:16:00. > :16:03.in advance our borders would be clearly be safer. I am grateful, but

:16:04. > :16:12.there are two points. One the reference to the EU of Belgians it

:16:13. > :16:16.is the point that I think the honourable gentleman may not want to

:16:17. > :16:22.make, but I will make, that the majority of terrorist threats in

:16:23. > :16:26.this country as proven by the 7/7 attacks are by British nationals,

:16:27. > :16:30.not EU nationals, although the four in the 7/7 attacks were three of

:16:31. > :16:37.them were British nationals and one was a German national. So it doesn't

:16:38. > :16:42.apply necessarily that coming out of the EU will make us safer. There is

:16:43. > :16:51.a danger in some, not in this House and not the honourable gentleman, of

:16:52. > :17:10.a danger of a Trump Trumpification of the debachlt

:17:11. > :17:15.We would be deluding ourself by thinking by stopping people that

:17:16. > :17:21.terrorism would not be a threat. He is right, rather than increasing the

:17:22. > :17:27.threat, Europe is helping us decrease the threat, whether the

:17:28. > :17:32.border force staff in France and other places, helping with the most

:17:33. > :17:35.recent issues, on collaboration between European police forces and

:17:36. > :17:41.the national crime agency and other U. Constabularies. On the

:17:42. > :17:45.relationship between our intelligence agencies, Europe helps

:17:46. > :17:49.the UK security every day of every week. As I said, it is a bold

:17:50. > :17:56.statement to suggest that leaving the EU would keep the UK safe from

:17:57. > :18:00.terrorism. This morning in the Sun the former Foreign Secretary Lord

:18:01. > :18:05.Owen suggests, remaining in the EU is risking more than leaving. But

:18:06. > :18:12.where is the evidence? There is noefd. A sweeping statement, but no

:18:13. > :18:20.evidence provided. What is more, I think that the, an exit from the EU

:18:21. > :18:25.would embolden the UK's enemies. Who would benefit from the UK quitting?

:18:26. > :18:31.One word - one country, Russia. It is the UK that is ensuring that

:18:32. > :18:35.Europe acted to impose sanctions over the Russia's grab in Ukraine.

:18:36. > :18:42.It is Europe alongside NATO that sends a clear and tough message to

:18:43. > :18:48.ensure that the territorial integrity of the Baltic states are

:18:49. > :18:54.assured. And it is often the U. That is the bridge -- UK that is the

:18:55. > :19:00.bring between Europe and the United States, making sure that the right

:19:01. > :19:05.decisions are made. As I wrote, in the Sunday times, I would quote, to

:19:06. > :19:08.isolate Britain from Europe will have significant national security

:19:09. > :19:14.implications. First, a British exit would end Britain's political and

:19:15. > :19:19.diplomatic counter balance to France and German's strategic often

:19:20. > :19:25.clumsiness. And Britain's exit would leave to weakening of NATO with

:19:26. > :19:37.Germany and France extending defence structures and budgets. In itself

:19:38. > :19:42.not hostile, but over time that defence complementing NATO's defence

:19:43. > :19:46.fence would be in competition to NATO. That is something that some

:19:47. > :19:52.cleanings need to think about. Thirdly, a British exit would see

:19:53. > :19:59.the EU lose Britain's diplomatic advice and counsel. Over the horizon

:20:00. > :20:03.this would present unforeseen and new national security challenges.

:20:04. > :20:14.Britain has a unique place in the world and its voice and reaches have

:20:15. > :20:22.empowrd by fou pillar bgss, the UN, NATO, common wealth and the EU. I

:20:23. > :20:28.would like to reference a letter sent by the former cheech of the

:20:29. > :20:35.defence chaff. Britain's role in the EU strengthens the security we enJie

:20:36. > :20:41.as part of NATO. Adds to our capability and flexibility in

:20:42. > :20:45.defence and allows us to project greater power and internationally. I

:20:46. > :20:52.don't think we should dismiss the voice of former chiefs of the

:20:53. > :20:58.defence staff. And yes, of course, the UK could survive outside the EU

:20:59. > :21:04.and we would still be part of NATO and still have our own armed forces,

:21:05. > :21:11.but the key question is are we safer in the EU or outside? I would argue

:21:12. > :21:17.that we are safer in. That is also the view of our allies who share our

:21:18. > :21:22.intelligence, the five Is nations and also nations that we share

:21:23. > :21:32.intelligence with, Germany and Denmark and so on. But looking

:21:33. > :21:45.across to the United States, all of their institutions want to see a

:21:46. > :21:51.safer Britain in the EU. I will have to reduce the limit of

:21:52. > :21:59.interventions. Thank you, in the weeks and months to come, ahead of

:22:00. > :22:04.referendum, I look forward to hearing from all sides of the House

:22:05. > :22:10.the positive and inspiring is argument for remaining a member of

:22:11. > :22:18.the EU. I would like to pay tribute to the member for mid Sussex who set

:22:19. > :22:22.us off with I think what George Herbert Walker Bush would call the

:22:23. > :22:27.vision thing. It was refreshing to hear. I would like to say like his

:22:28. > :22:34.father, my grandfather died in the last war in the Clyde bank blitz.

:22:35. > :22:40.Neither side in the debate has a monopoly on loss or war legacy. It

:22:41. > :22:45.is refreshing to see a Conservative Prime Minister stand in the chamber

:22:46. > :22:51.and state his commitment to the European union. But if he intends to

:22:52. > :22:55.see a vote to remain delivered this summer, it is time to stop talking

:22:56. > :23:02.to his own party and start talking to the public in these islands. It

:23:03. > :23:08.is time to stop engaging only in the details and to offer a vision,

:23:09. > :23:17.because as the member for Peterborough said, the Prime

:23:18. > :23:25.Minister is secured only Goss Amer thin concessions. It is time to

:23:26. > :23:29.celebrate the European project. Does he agree on that point that the

:23:30. > :23:33.comments earlier from the Foreign Secretary that Objective One status

:23:34. > :23:36.which transformed the infrastructure of the Highlands and Islands could

:23:37. > :23:41.be considered as bunging money to people is the wrong tone to adopt

:23:42. > :23:47.for this debate and recognise the contribution that the EU has made to

:23:48. > :23:52.these islands. I don't think it was the Foreign Secretary at his most

:23:53. > :24:03.sfais Kated it is -- sophisticated it is true. It is time to celebrate

:24:04. > :24:07.the debate. Which shouldn't be about appeasing euro sceptics in the

:24:08. > :24:12.Conservative Party. It is a debate about how we see ourselves and our

:24:13. > :24:17.neighbours and how the rest of the world sees us. What has been

:24:18. > :24:23.achieved in Europe since the formation of the EU is an

:24:24. > :24:29.extraordinary thing, a continent intent on destroying itself for

:24:30. > :24:38.decades and centuries as nations fought with each other, has been

:24:39. > :24:48.transformed intone sin on mouse with co-operation. I often think of how

:24:49. > :24:55.much we miss elder statesman such as Heath as Healy. Parliamentarian was

:24:56. > :25:00.a memory of war who could remind us that this is about peace in Europe

:25:01. > :25:06.and establishing unprecedented stability between countries which

:25:07. > :25:10.had torn themselves apart through generations of conflict. While many

:25:11. > :25:16.of the benches will say the European Union was established on the basis

:25:17. > :25:26.of trade alone, I think many forget Nair history. The human declaration

:25:27. > :25:31.produced in May 1950 proposed the creation of a European community to

:25:32. > :25:34.lock the economies of Germany and France together into mutual

:25:35. > :25:38.dependency, making war impossible. It was the first step in the

:25:39. > :25:43.integration of Europe and one that many at the time thought should be

:25:44. > :25:48.treasured. It was a remarkable first step. Now while the institutions and

:25:49. > :25:55.treaties have changed, the principle that underpins them has remained the

:25:56. > :25:59.same. Whether it was delivery of freedoms to ex-fascist countries

:26:00. > :26:05.such as Spain, inspiring a new sense of hope and opportunity for the

:26:06. > :26:13.ex-Soviet states or promising the restoration of free movement across

:26:14. > :26:19.the former Yugoslavia, the dream of EU membership has facilitated peace,

:26:20. > :26:24.progress and prosperity. Now it will come as no surprise that one day I

:26:25. > :26:30.want to see Scotland have a seat at the top table of the European Union

:26:31. > :26:33.as an independent member state. I want Scotland to have control over

:26:34. > :26:38.its own foreign policy and defence policy, to control its own taxes and

:26:39. > :26:43.resources and to make its own welfare decisions. Like other small

:26:44. > :26:48.nations, Denmark, Finland, Ireland and Sweden, we know that this is

:26:49. > :26:54.achievable while enjoying the benefits of a union which promotes

:26:55. > :26:59.human brights, advances social Europe, guarantees workers' rights

:27:00. > :27:03.in so many fields, where we work together to combat terrorism and

:27:04. > :27:11.climate change and allow access to the world's largest trading area.

:27:12. > :27:15.Membership of the European Union continues to provide the people of

:27:16. > :27:20.Scotland with huge opportunities. The right as European citizens to

:27:21. > :27:27.live and work in any EU member state is not something that should be

:27:28. > :27:31.taken for granted. In 2012, 2013, over 1400 students from Scottish

:27:32. > :27:35.universities were supported by the roughness programme to study

:27:36. > :27:39.elsewhere in the EU. Scottish companies have taken full advantage

:27:40. > :27:47.of the export markets, Scottish exports to the EU were worth ?12.9

:27:48. > :27:55.billion, that's some 46% of all Scottish exports in 2013 alone. The

:27:56. > :27:59.vision I and my colleagues on these SNP benches have for Scotland is one

:28:00. > :28:08.in which we play a full and active role on the world stage. Independent

:28:09. > :28:13.but never insular. It was called subsidiarity by Sir John major, a

:28:14. > :28:16.concept I think we probably believe in rather more than third John major

:28:17. > :28:20.himself. Devolving as much as possible but quite pretty and and

:28:21. > :28:27.pulling resources whenever desirable. The alternative vision

:28:28. > :28:30.offered by the Eurosceptics is a depressing one. The pessimistic

:28:31. > :28:36.vision of the Foreign Secretary is a depressing one. The prospect of

:28:37. > :28:40.retreating into ourselves, closing our borders and withdrawing from

:28:41. > :28:43.union which has brought unprecedented peace and progress to

:28:44. > :28:50.this continent is a fate that never has and never will appeal to me. So

:28:51. > :28:55.let us to romp it, an optimistic vision of Europe with verve and

:28:56. > :29:05.enthusiasm and commend EU membership to the people of the United Kingdom

:29:06. > :29:12.with passion. I agree that we have to understand the lessons of history

:29:13. > :29:18.and if I for one moment, thought that leaving the European Union

:29:19. > :29:22.would make a civil war in Europe, the remote is it possible, I would

:29:23. > :29:29.not be standing here, advocating that we do leave. I come from a

:29:30. > :29:33.post-war generation where my parents constantly talked about the war. It

:29:34. > :29:42.was the essential fact of their life. My parents were 25 in 1945. My

:29:43. > :29:47.mother had to flee France, Paris, hours before the German tanks rolled

:29:48. > :29:52.in. Her best friend who was Jewish had to throw herself off a train and

:29:53. > :29:56.be killed as she was being taken to the death camps. My father also had

:29:57. > :29:59.to flee France. This was a defining moment in their life and it is not

:30:00. > :30:04.the pricing that generation wanted to create more of a sense of

:30:05. > :30:10.European solidarity and never to repeat the slaughter and horror of

:30:11. > :30:16.two world wars. There was also a lack of confidence-and in that

:30:17. > :30:22.post-war generation. In the lifetime of my parents and my early life, in

:30:23. > :30:27.20 years, the world's largest empire dissolved. There was a lack of

:30:28. > :30:30.confidence about our economy. My first job across the river, looking

:30:31. > :30:36.at the Palace of Westminster, dreaming of becoming an MP, I was

:30:37. > :30:42.having to work a three day week, by candlelight. There was a lack of

:30:43. > :30:48.confidence about our economy. When I arrived here, in it was felt we

:30:49. > :30:53.would find the life outside the European economic community, a cold

:30:54. > :30:59.and hard place. Now we are in a different world, a new one. It is a

:31:00. > :31:02.globalised world. A world where we have regained our confidence is the

:31:03. > :31:10.fifth largest economy in the world. Therefore, some of these arguments,

:31:11. > :31:13.based on the lessons of the past, realise there is now a different

:31:14. > :31:18.future, the European Union may have played its part but it is actually

:31:19. > :31:26.moved on from what we voted for in 1974. -- 19 75. It has become

:31:27. > :31:30.something much more unified in that sense, much more powerful. What is

:31:31. > :31:34.interesting is that so few people here who advocate our stay in the

:31:35. > :31:39.union, seem to have this vision. Where are the speeches today, or

:31:40. > :31:45.this week or in the country from those who favour remaining in the

:31:46. > :31:53.EU, where is the vision? Where other people arguing for single currency,

:31:54. > :31:57.where other people arguing for much greater cooperation and indeed an

:31:58. > :32:04.ever closer union? Where are those voices in Parliament? Where are the

:32:05. > :32:17.voices of all these great figures from our past, where are they? I

:32:18. > :32:23.personally arguing to remain on national security grounds. Does he

:32:24. > :32:26.take a view on this that if the United Kingdom were to leave the

:32:27. > :32:31.European Union, the European Union would be less safe and if the

:32:32. > :32:37.European Union is less safe, over the horizon, that is not in our

:32:38. > :32:42.national security interest? I think that is a weak argument, perhaps one

:32:43. > :32:49.of the weakest, that goes advocating us staying in the EU. I will not

:32:50. > :32:56.repeat all the arguments but I will say this, just one example, just to

:32:57. > :33:02.reply with recent history, does he think that the European Union,

:33:03. > :33:06.attempting in a rather cack-handed way, to create an associated

:33:07. > :33:12.agreement with the Ukraine was actually a good move to make? Has

:33:13. > :33:16.that made you are a safer place? Is it not led directly, I don't approve

:33:17. > :33:21.of this but have not led directly to the annexation of Crimea? An

:33:22. > :33:25.imperialist Europe is not necessarily a force for security. A

:33:26. > :33:29.force for security is the best national interest of the United

:33:30. > :33:33.Kingdom working with our partners in Nato and that has been the case

:33:34. > :33:37.since the Second World War. But what concerns me, first of all is this

:33:38. > :33:41.lack of vision on the pro-European side which is in quite new in this

:33:42. > :33:47.House and certainly was not the basis and foundation of debates in

:33:48. > :33:57.the united -- 1970s when there were cases being made on both sides. On

:33:58. > :34:01.one side,... On either side you had...

:34:02. > :34:07.If we are united, this House and we don't want to be part of an ever

:34:08. > :34:12.closer union, why are we then told that Armageddon will take place the

:34:13. > :34:20.moment the people, not us, the people vote to leave. Why do we get

:34:21. > :34:25.these apoplectic visions of what will go wrong? Why is the Government

:34:26. > :34:30.so intent on not actually having a call, calm, independent audit of the

:34:31. > :34:36.cost benefit analysis of what would happen if we decide to leave. I

:34:37. > :34:39.suspect and I have read things like the open Europe briefing, that

:34:40. > :34:47.actually, the difference is quite marginal. Open Europe suggests that

:34:48. > :34:56.on the best scenario, we might gain 1.1% in GMP, that is to become a new

:34:57. > :35:03.regulator, open society, and a worst-case scenario, we might lose

:35:04. > :35:10.2.2%. It is quite a narrow debate. So if it is so, can we not just

:35:11. > :35:14.raise the tone of it and can we not say, actually, whether we leave or

:35:15. > :35:20.we stay in, it will probably not have a dramatic effect on our

:35:21. > :35:25.economy. In that sense, I rather think it is exciting to think that

:35:26. > :35:34.we might actually be able to run our own agriculture, for instance. I

:35:35. > :35:42.represent a highly rural area, our agricultural industry employees 3.5

:35:43. > :35:46.million jobs, it provides 62% of the food we eat and contribute ?85

:35:47. > :35:52.billion a year for the UK economy. I think it would be rather exciting

:35:53. > :35:56.for this House, our own ministers, to run agriculture. What about

:35:57. > :36:03.fisheries? Do we will never wore the arguments of our friend Austin

:36:04. > :36:07.Mitchell who represented Grimsby? Do we remember when you could walk

:36:08. > :36:12.across all the decks of all the trawlers? It was given away in the

:36:13. > :36:17.last two days of negotiations by Edward Heath? It would be quite

:36:18. > :36:21.visionary and exciting for us to create a low tax, deregulated

:36:22. > :36:27.economy and there is a world out there. Vincent Peters, a former

:36:28. > :36:32.Deputy Prime Minister of New Zealand, is actually openly

:36:33. > :36:41.speculated about, as he says, forgetting the terrible betrayal of

:36:42. > :36:44.1973 and creating a new free trade agreement, not just with Australia,

:36:45. > :36:49.as New Zealand is now including, but with us as well. There is an

:36:50. > :37:03.exciting world out there with India, China. Do people not think... I will

:37:04. > :37:07.give way. I will not because... He has given me extra time just by

:37:08. > :37:16.standing up. I will finish my Speech now. I will not abuse the House.

:37:17. > :37:20.Just on a fine thing, there is a world out there, let's grasp it and

:37:21. > :37:28.trust the people and not be afraid and let's regain our freedom. First,

:37:29. > :37:33.we have got ten speakers... It works out at six minutes each, that is

:37:34. > :37:36.without intervention so those people who have spoken, think about the

:37:37. > :37:42.ones who have not, to make sure they also get to speak. If we can help

:37:43. > :37:47.each other, we will all get there. I'm delighted to be to contribute to

:37:48. > :37:53.this debate today and I want to take the time allocated to talk about how

:37:54. > :37:56.I personally have benefited as an EU citizen. It will be some of the big

:37:57. > :38:00.issues other people have talked about and I agree with the member of

:38:01. > :38:09.Lewisham West and pens when he said it can get a bit theological. I will

:38:10. > :38:12.try to keep it personal. It may be a bit too far away for you to see but

:38:13. > :38:16.I have a scar on my chin and I received this when I was 17 or 18

:38:17. > :38:22.when I was engaging in a cultural visit in a southern European country

:38:23. > :38:27.more commonly known as the lads's holiday. Halfway through this trip I

:38:28. > :38:31.unfortunately took in one too many libations and ended up in a fight

:38:32. > :38:37.with the pavement. I had to engage the local medical services. Being

:38:38. > :38:40.that I was younger than I am now, I didn't have any travel insurance.

:38:41. > :38:44.But the whole process at the hospital was made very easy by the

:38:45. > :38:48.fact I was carrying a European health insurance card in my wallet.

:38:49. > :38:51.This allowed me to be treated quickly and for free and I would say

:38:52. > :38:56.painlessly if they had waited for the local anaesthetic to kick in

:38:57. > :39:02.before stitching me up. I know this seems insignificant to what has been

:39:03. > :39:06.discussed today but as a practical way in which being an EU citizen has

:39:07. > :39:10.impacted positively on my life and I am sure it is an experience that has

:39:11. > :39:16.been shared by many other people my age. Further to this point, I have

:39:17. > :39:21.been contacted by a number of young people who are slightly worried,

:39:22. > :39:27.they are leaving school or university holidays, they are

:39:28. > :39:32.worried and EU exit might mean that they would have the opportunity to

:39:33. > :39:41.get off easily to Magaluf for the aforementioned holiday. Will they

:39:42. > :39:44.have to go through the hassle and again, these issues may seem

:39:45. > :39:48.insignificant but they are issues that matter to young people.

:39:49. > :39:56.Particularly those young people who have been denied a vote in this

:39:57. > :40:00.referendum. There are 170,000 EU nationals living and working in

:40:01. > :40:04.Scotland, improving our economy, enriching our culture and

:40:05. > :40:07.legislating in our Parliament, Scottish Parliament. I have

:40:08. > :40:11.experienced the valuable contribution of them towards our

:40:12. > :40:18.society. One even was my election agent. I recognise the very real

:40:19. > :40:22.concern being expressed me by constituents who are EU citizens

:40:23. > :40:26.about what will happen to them, their jobs, family and lives should

:40:27. > :40:32.the eco--- UK leave the EU. They have also worried that they will not

:40:33. > :40:36.be able to vote in this referendum. A large number of my constituents

:40:37. > :40:40.are farmers. The European common agricultural policy provides vital

:40:41. > :40:43.funding for them, helping them to maintain farming and forestry in

:40:44. > :40:49.vulnerable areas and providing competitors to support other so they

:40:50. > :40:54.have a wide range of food, rural and community activities across

:40:55. > :40:59.Scotland. In the current financial period, Scotland will receive around

:41:00. > :41:05.4.6 billion euros from Europe to implement caps across Scotland.

:41:06. > :41:10.Farmers depend on our mothership of the EU to survive and thrive. Not

:41:11. > :41:16.only are these people who produce our food and land, they are the

:41:17. > :41:23.lifeblood of our rural communities. There is a substantial investment

:41:24. > :41:26.Europe makes in our farmers. Many members have talked about where they

:41:27. > :41:30.would like to see the EU doing less. I would like to talk about issues

:41:31. > :41:36.where I would like to see it doing more. Again, it is on a practical

:41:37. > :41:39.basis. I would like to see a single, digital market where customers have

:41:40. > :41:46.the ability to buy and use digital content across borders. Why is this?

:41:47. > :41:50.I want to watch Netflix abroad. If my sunbathing or sightseeing is

:41:51. > :41:54.rained off, I want to be up to watch my favourite show without being told

:41:55. > :41:55.by my screen that the current programme is unavailable in my

:41:56. > :42:05.location. And so I have spoken about why the

:42:06. > :42:09.EU is important to me, not big issues or theology, but one based on

:42:10. > :42:20.self-interest, which I'm sure will have convinced some of the members

:42:21. > :42:27.opposite. Thank you. Thank you very much for calling me. I believe 23rd

:42:28. > :42:30.June will be the most momentous day in this country's history, certainly

:42:31. > :42:35.in my lifetime and the opportunity to get our country back are there,

:42:36. > :42:42.is there and I very much hope for all our sakes that we take it. I was

:42:43. > :42:48.inspired by colleague's speech before me, because it was such a

:42:49. > :42:53.positive one and that is what the out come pan it. -- campaign it. We

:42:54. > :43:04.have heard from the in campaign, let me quote a leap in the dark, risks,

:43:05. > :43:08.shut the curtains, close the door, not quite dad's army-style doomed,

:43:09. > :43:15.but not far from it. Let me tell those who do our country down and I

:43:16. > :43:21.believe they do, by speaking like this, that we have huge aspiration,

:43:22. > :43:31.hope and opportunity if we leave the EU. We have absolutely nothing to

:43:32. > :43:38.fear from leaving what in effect has become a welfare state. We are now

:43:39. > :43:45.so reliant on nanny, and let's call the EU nanny, and nanny's bred us,

:43:46. > :43:51.brought us up, give us things when we ask for them. Even when we don't

:43:52. > :43:59.deserve them. And then when we get to a certain age it is time to break

:44:00. > :44:03.free of nanny and get out there and start to grow up. Your told you

:44:04. > :44:10.can't. Or worse you have been bred to point that you simply don't want

:44:11. > :44:15.to. I believe that sadly where this great country and the speech from my

:44:16. > :44:20.honourable friend mentioned his grandfather, for whom I have the

:44:21. > :44:25.most huge RMT, as does o' O'-- respect as does the nation and I

:44:26. > :44:28.didn't know him, I wish I did. But I believe he would be on the side of

:44:29. > :44:36.those who want to get their country back. That is what I believe from

:44:37. > :44:40.the history books that I have read. Now, we all hear the newspapers,

:44:41. > :44:46.commentators and those who want to stay in that we are all as I think

:44:47. > :44:55.the honourable lady described us, if I recall, middle aged grey-haired

:44:56. > :45:00.gentlemen. I think it was her. Who basically are swivel-eyed lunatics

:45:01. > :45:04.who want to stick up the Union Jack, dig a hole in the garden and sing

:45:05. > :45:10.God save the Queen. Oh, if only it were that simple. That is not what

:45:11. > :45:16.we want. We don't want that at all. But we do want to be free, we do

:45:17. > :45:24.want to be free to control our destiny. We do want to be free to

:45:25. > :45:29.control our sovereignty and democracy. Every speech I have heard

:45:30. > :45:37.warning of the risks of leaving and how we won't trade with Europe and

:45:38. > :45:41.all communication and intelligence will just shut down, 5,000

:45:42. > :45:46.terrorists we are told heading into the United Kingdom or Europe and

:45:47. > :45:52.then on to us no doubt, they're not going to tell us? They're going to

:45:53. > :46:00.sit there mute while London's blown apart or Glasgow or Manchester, or

:46:01. > :46:07.Birmingham. These are so the euro files say our allies. They are

:46:08. > :46:15.friends. They are decent people. We don't dislike them. We love the

:46:16. > :46:22.Europeans. I am British and a European. And I'm very proud of it.

:46:23. > :46:31.I want to be in and trade with Europe. I want to enjoy Europe.

:46:32. > :46:35.Their culture and languages, their mountains, their seas. Their more

:46:36. > :46:41.efficient trains and wider and faster roads. Their beautiful

:46:42. > :46:49.countryside. Their wine. I want to enjoy it all as we all do, but I do

:46:50. > :46:59.not and millions in this country do not want to be ruled by unelected

:47:00. > :47:10.bureaucrats. Now I sit on the European scrutiny committee, which

:47:11. > :47:16.is a great privilege. You may want to know last night as I headed home

:47:17. > :47:22.in the taxi, I always talk to the drivers, Baz because they're always

:47:23. > :47:28.fascinating. I told him who I was I said I'm an MP. He said, I won't

:47:29. > :47:34.press the ejector seat. He said tell me, what do you think about the EU?

:47:35. > :47:39.I said it is simple. Do you want to control the future of this country

:47:40. > :47:42.or do you want to hand it across to unelected bureaucrats and a

:47:43. > :47:53.political elite that are completely out of touch with the electorate? He

:47:54. > :47:58.said, gov, do you know William Cash. I said I do. He said he sat here 25

:47:59. > :48:09.years ago and said the same thing. That is a true story. And was so

:48:10. > :48:14.wonderful and far-sighted of my friend is he was right then and he

:48:15. > :48:24.is right now. Let's get our freedom back on 23rd June. Thank you Mr

:48:25. > :48:29.Deputy Speaker. I realise I'm one of a sadly dwindling number of members

:48:30. > :48:34.of Parliament who actually don't just remember the 75 referendum, but

:48:35. > :48:38.actually campaigned in it and indeed I do feel a certain sympathy with

:48:39. > :48:49.the Government front bench, because even in the years running up to the

:48:50. > :48:53.75 referendum, I was a pro-European, a very beleaguered pro-European

:48:54. > :48:59.member of the Labour Party when the Parliamentary and the party

:49:00. > :49:04.membership were opposed to it. The reasons I supported our entry into

:49:05. > :49:17.the European community as it was then many of them were visionary and

:49:18. > :49:21.many of them I heard most e-Quently-- eloquently articulated

:49:22. > :49:26.by the members and in no way do I resile from the vision I had when I

:49:27. > :49:31.supported Europe in those years. In the meantime like many people, I

:49:32. > :49:36.have got very frustrated with the way in which Europe has conducted

:49:37. > :49:41.its business and the getting bogged down in the details of regulation,

:49:42. > :49:47.rather than some of the grand visions and aspirations that we saw

:49:48. > :49:51.at the time. But at no stage have I ever believed that coming out of

:49:52. > :49:59.Europe would do anything to resolve those issues and I have not changed

:50:00. > :50:06.my position now. I want to spend the brief time I have available in just

:50:07. > :50:12.stating with why I am still so firmly committed to our membership

:50:13. > :50:18.of the EU. I week this referendum as an opportunity to get away from the

:50:19. > :50:23.details of some of the debates we had to talk about the role that

:50:24. > :50:29.Britain has with Europe and its potential role out of Europe and

:50:30. > :50:35.exactly what considerations people will need to exercise when they cast

:50:36. > :50:40.their vote on June 23rd. While I still have grand visions of Europe,

:50:41. > :50:44.the fact is that I am and I think we all understand that people will make

:50:45. > :50:48.the decision based on what they perceive and will be the best

:50:49. > :50:54.interests for themselves and their country. And in the west Midlands, I

:50:55. > :51:00.think there is probably no greater area that can understand and

:51:01. > :51:06.appreciate the value that Europe has brought in that respect. The centre

:51:07. > :51:13.for economic and business research showed in 2011 there were 400,000

:51:14. > :51:17.jobs linked to trade with Europe in the west Midlands, 200,000 of them

:51:18. > :51:28.in manufacturing. That was before the huge investment that has come

:51:29. > :51:33.from the Tata family in Solihull and the I54 development. They have made

:51:34. > :51:37.it clear that one of the prime considerations in that investment

:51:38. > :51:42.was membership of the EU and its market. Similar sentiments have been

:51:43. > :51:51.uttered for investment in other parts of the country by Toyota and

:51:52. > :51:57.Nissan and we must remember it is not just the major car companies,

:51:58. > :51:59.icht is the network of small manufacturing businesses that

:52:00. > :52:07.support those businesses that are dependent on our trade with Europe.

:52:08. > :52:16.We must also remember that cars, 80% of our cars are exported. Half of

:52:17. > :52:21.those to the EU. If anything took place that prejudiced our ability to

:52:22. > :52:28.do that, the potential impact on areas like mine in the west Midlands

:52:29. > :52:34.would be devastating. Now, nobody pretends that the EU is a perfect

:52:35. > :52:40.institution. Or that exit from it would be an immediate catastrophe,

:52:41. > :52:43.but I would say that in these days of foot loose international

:52:44. > :52:47.development that a major manufacturer wanting to invest

:52:48. > :52:52.either in the car industry or other sort of manufacturing given the

:52:53. > :53:02.choice of investing in mainland EU Europe of a market of 400 million

:53:03. > :53:08.people and a U. K of 60 million would opt for the former. And that

:53:09. > :53:15.is a hard, real fact of political life that we have to live with. And

:53:16. > :53:22.we must make sure that will not happen. My other main point that I

:53:23. > :53:28.want to make is that if you look to the future, the global world

:53:29. > :53:34.economies are going to be China, India, United States, possibly south

:53:35. > :53:40.America or Africa, coming up. Our ability to negotiate with them and

:53:41. > :53:45.access their markets is crucially dependent on being part of EU. Those

:53:46. > :53:49.who say we are a great nation, yes we are, we are a great nation,

:53:50. > :53:56.because we are in the EU. There is no reason for believing that if we

:53:57. > :54:00.can't shape the EU we will be able to approach the by China, inds or

:54:01. > :54:07.the United States if we are outside of it. The fact is we gain strength

:54:08. > :54:18.in our international relations by being part of EU and working to

:54:19. > :54:24.realise an international framework based on the values we have in our

:54:25. > :54:32.democracies. When it was it ever said of the great figures of history

:54:33. > :54:38.they learned to suffer tolerable irritations because they found

:54:39. > :54:43.change difficult. This is not the history, it is the creed of slaves

:54:44. > :54:47.and of failure. But it characterises the Government's position and the

:54:48. > :54:51.campaign we are being offered by the Britain stronger in Europe campaign.

:54:52. > :54:54.We have chose on the place before the public a historic decision which

:54:55. > :54:58.that will last with us for generations and it is one that

:54:59. > :55:02.should be taken in the tone of the speech by my honourable friend for

:55:03. > :55:06.mid Sussex. While I made disagree with him, his speech had the merit

:55:07. > :55:11.of being a great speech by a great man which deserves to be remembered

:55:12. > :55:14.by history. Unlike the rest of the remarks we have heard, I have to say

:55:15. > :55:19.I listened to the Foreign Secretary's speech with dismay. A as

:55:20. > :55:24.he opened it again expressing all of this misgivings with the EU and all

:55:25. > :55:29.of the problems with it and the Secretary of State for business will

:55:30. > :55:33.expect me to refer to the article he put in the Mail on Sunday and said,

:55:34. > :55:39.the UK should never have joined the EU and in my ways it is a failing

:55:40. > :55:44.project in need of reform had we never taken the decision to sign up,

:55:45. > :55:54.the UK would still be a successful country. Of course, he says that is

:55:55. > :56:00.why I should be voting for the U. K to remain a member. This is not the

:56:01. > :56:04.tone that I wish my country to follow. It is not the picture I wish

:56:05. > :56:09.to be placed before the public. So what is at stake in this debate it

:56:10. > :56:12.not whether we co-operate with the nations of Europe, but the basis on

:56:13. > :56:20.which we co-operate with the nations of Europe and the world. Healthy

:56:21. > :56:24.co-operation is voluntary. I believe that human prosperity and dignity is

:56:25. > :56:28.all underscored by liberty and another name for liberty is

:56:29. > :56:33.self-Government and self-government is what I came here to deliver. The

:56:34. > :56:39.ability to have the dignity of determining our own destiny at the

:56:40. > :56:44.ballot box. That is the great gift we should hand on to our children.

:56:45. > :56:47.When people say we must think of what we hands on to the next

:56:48. > :56:53.generation I think that the great gift which history has shown we must

:56:54. > :56:58.hands on is the gift of Parliamentary deck si and

:56:59. > :57:02.self-government -- democracy and self-government that leads to

:57:03. > :57:19.liberty and prosperity. This leads to a real pro problem for

:57:20. > :57:23.the Government. This reluctance is not doing any good for our country

:57:24. > :57:28.and the nations of Europe. The Government's programme, suffice to

:57:29. > :57:33.say, when you find yourself listening as I was and many of you

:57:34. > :57:38.I'm sure, were last week, to the presenter John Humphries on the

:57:39. > :57:43.today programme, asking, are we still calling this a renegotiation?

:57:44. > :57:47.Then you know the jig is up for the Government's position, which is not

:57:48. > :57:55.a fundamental renegotiation, it is a trivial one. When you look at the

:57:56. > :57:59.front cover of money week, showing the Prime Minister pulling a tiny

:58:00. > :58:03.white rabbit out of the hat, you know the jig is up. The spectator is

:58:04. > :58:09.showing the Prime Minister with the food tray, lifting the lid with glee

:58:10. > :58:13.and a tiny morsel on the plate, that is when you know the jig is up. This

:58:14. > :58:19.is doing the Government no good to present this as anything other than

:58:20. > :58:23.a trivial set of changes. We have ended up talking about whether the

:58:24. > :58:27.deal is binding or not and I am indebted to my honourable friend for

:58:28. > :58:32.putting in front of us contrary evidence. Saying this deal is

:58:33. > :58:37.legally binding is to torture the English language in a way only