29/02/2016

:00:07. > :00:12.Hello and welcome to BBC Parliament's live coverage from the

:00:13. > :00:15.House of Commons. In an hour cosmic time, there'll be two urgent

:00:16. > :00:19.questions. The first on child refugees in Calais and the second on

:00:20. > :00:25.guidance to civil service under the EU referendum. MPs will then be to

:00:26. > :00:29.record -- approve the referendum which takes place on the 23rd of

:00:30. > :00:33.June and the start of the official referendum period on the 15th of

:00:34. > :00:37.April. After that, the Labour Party will lead the debate and the UK

:00:38. > :00:40.steel industry, calling on the government to publish a full

:00:41. > :00:45.industrial strategy which includes the procurement policy which commits

:00:46. > :00:49.to using British steel wherever possible for publicly funded

:00:50. > :00:53.infrastructure projects. Join me for a round up of the day in both houses

:00:54. > :01:10.of parliament at 11pm this evening. Now over two House of Commons live.

:01:11. > :01:18.Order, order. We will not proceed to read the title of the bill. Set down

:01:19. > :01:19.for consideration this day. Transport for London billboards to

:01:20. > :01:33.be considered. Objection taken. Monday the 7th of March. Thank you.

:01:34. > :01:43.Order. Questions to the secretary of state defence,. With permission I

:01:44. > :01:47.will answer this question together with question seven and 11. On the

:01:48. > :01:52.20th of January I attended the defence minister Boss meeting where

:01:53. > :01:57.we reviewed options for intensifying the military operation against Daesh

:01:58. > :02:01.in both Iraq and Syria. On the 11th of February I attended a full

:02:02. > :02:06.counter Daesh military meeting where we agreed on accelerated plan

:02:07. > :02:11.including the liberation and importance of the liberation of both

:02:12. > :02:18.rack and another city and pressing on the Daesh on all sides. I think

:02:19. > :02:22.we have -- the community has previously asked the government to

:02:23. > :02:27.do more in the fight against Daesh. Having just returned from

:02:28. > :02:31.parliamentary delegation in Saudi Arabia, understood and that the

:02:32. > :02:35.Saudi authorities have sent ground troops into Syria to defeat Daesh

:02:36. > :02:41.but require air cover. Will the United Kingdom and other partners

:02:42. > :02:46.and look at that request. I welcome the cooperation, contribution of

:02:47. > :02:55.states including Saudi Arabia and they were president of the meeting

:02:56. > :02:58.in Brussels. I welcome the Saudi redeployment of those 15 aircraft to

:02:59. > :03:03.the Coalition air campaign. I have also seen the reports that my

:03:04. > :03:06.honourable friend has referred to and Saudi Arabia is prepared to send

:03:07. > :03:11.troops to the fight in Syria and we will wait to see the details of any

:03:12. > :03:18.plan before commenting on what support the UK will provide as part

:03:19. > :03:23.of the global Coalition. Russian air strikes have clearly targeted

:03:24. > :03:29.civilian populations in Syria. Killing and maiming many innocent

:03:30. > :03:33.men, women, and children and degrading the Syria moderate forces

:03:34. > :03:38.that we are relying on to defeat Daesh in the region. With these

:03:39. > :03:42.Secretary of State align what actions we are taking now to protect

:03:43. > :03:46.these populations and underpin our military strategy in the region? I

:03:47. > :03:52.know my honourable friend will welcome these disassociation of

:03:53. > :03:56.hostilities at the weekend which appears to be largely holding. Able

:03:57. > :04:00.only to succeed if there is a major change in behaviour by the Syrian

:04:01. > :04:03.regime and by its principal backer, Russia. It is Russia that has

:04:04. > :04:09.honoured this agreement by ending the attacks on Syrian civilians and

:04:10. > :04:13.opposition groups and using its influence to ensure the Syrian

:04:14. > :04:17.regime does the same. As part of the second part of the question, there

:04:18. > :04:23.has been some progress in the last few weeks and reaching the seeds

:04:24. > :04:28.areas. Over some 60,000 people have been reached with aid through the

:04:29. > :04:34.United Nations food programme. Continuing with the Russian bombing,

:04:35. > :04:37.can I ask what my honourable friend and the government is doing to

:04:38. > :04:42.highlight Russia's indiscriminate behaviour and what contact has he

:04:43. > :04:47.had with the Russian authorities to end this outrage? Both my right

:04:48. > :04:52.honourable friend the Foreign Secretary and I have been very clear

:04:53. > :04:56.and public that the Russian actions here have been undermining the

:04:57. > :05:01.prospects for ending the conflict in Syria. We welcome the Russian

:05:02. > :05:08.contribution to the most recent agreement that came into effect on

:05:09. > :05:12.Saturday. Russia can and should play a positive role in the fight against

:05:13. > :05:18.Daesh, ending the conflict in Syria. But I have to tell the House that

:05:19. > :05:22.over 70% of Russian air strikes have not been against Daesh at all, there

:05:23. > :05:28.have been against civilians and moderate opposition groups in Syria.

:05:29. > :05:33.And appalling contribution. This was to a conflict that must end. Can I

:05:34. > :05:38.ask the Secretary of State what the members of governments have had with

:05:39. > :05:43.discussions about extending military action including air strikes to

:05:44. > :05:46.Libya? There have not been discussions about extending air

:05:47. > :05:51.strikes to Libya because of the moment there is no government in

:05:52. > :05:55.Libya, we have been working to assist the formation of a new

:05:56. > :05:59.government in Libya and it is for that government to make clear what

:06:00. > :06:06.assistance it requires. We are party to the Libyan international mission

:06:07. > :06:10.and we will see what kind of support the new government wants, whether

:06:11. > :06:18.that is assistance with advice, or training, or any other kind of

:06:19. > :06:24.support. Last week in Iraq, members of the defence committee were

:06:25. > :06:31.informed of the full horror of Daesh as they forced out of territory.

:06:32. > :06:38.Specifically the minefields and IE D's that were left behind, including

:06:39. > :06:43.toilets that are being left with the resources to being removed are not

:06:44. > :06:46.available. What conversations are you having with partners to ensure

:06:47. > :06:51.this is taking care of? The honourable Lady is quite right.

:06:52. > :06:58.Daesh have been seeking these towns and villages, seeding them with

:06:59. > :07:03.improvised explosives and the British contribution to the Iraqi

:07:04. > :07:10.forces has focused indeed on counter IED training which we now supply at

:07:11. > :07:14.all four centres and if there is more we can do to assist the Iraqi

:07:15. > :07:20.and Kurdish forces in that training we will certainly do so. What

:07:21. > :07:25.support will the UK government be giving to the UN who are today

:07:26. > :07:32.giving fresh aid to Syria under the cease-fire? We have been making our

:07:33. > :07:36.contribution to the United Nations and we are ready to help do more.

:07:37. > :07:42.This is not easy for convoys to get through to some of the very hard to

:07:43. > :07:45.reach areas, and the a drop carried out last week was not entirely

:07:46. > :07:53.successful. It was dropped from a great height into a high wind, a

:07:54. > :07:59.number of the pallets do not reach the ground in the best way to get

:08:00. > :08:03.aid is by land convoys, but that is not easy in some of these

:08:04. > :08:09.particularly hard-to-reach areas. Parts of the defence committed he

:08:10. > :08:12.visited Jordan and Lebanon and we were concerned to see that Daesh

:08:13. > :08:19.were threatening borders of countries that are relatively

:08:20. > :08:22.stable. Where Britain has made a huge and impressive investment in

:08:23. > :08:27.trying to assist those countries, what more can my right honourable

:08:28. > :08:33.friend do and the government do to support these countries in dealing

:08:34. > :08:40.with a clear and present danger from this organisation? The Daesh

:08:41. > :08:44.represents a threat to the stability of the entire region, including the

:08:45. > :08:48.neighbours to Iraq and Syria. We have already made a huge

:08:49. > :08:55.contribution towards training in Jordan, with the Jordanian forces,

:08:56. > :08:58.we have more to do there as well. We have recently been playing a role in

:08:59. > :09:05.Lebanon as well with helping the border defenses of that country.

:09:06. > :09:11.Thank you Mr Speaker. Can the secretary of State tell us whether

:09:12. > :09:18.he believes that the use of the much... Missile against Daesh that

:09:19. > :09:24.the prime minister assured us it would cut off the head of the snake

:09:25. > :09:28.in Raqqa? Room Stone is one of the munitions available to our armed

:09:29. > :09:35.forces alongside bombs and the hellfire missile. We can tell the

:09:36. > :09:40.honourable Tubman, the United Kingdom forces have flown over 2100

:09:41. > :09:44.combat missions against Daesh and have carried out over 600 strikes,

:09:45. > :09:51.including the use of brimstone missiles. But one of the points for

:09:52. > :09:57.review in the Minister review is what more can we do to target the

:09:58. > :10:00.infrastructure that supports the Daesh, the logistics and its supply

:10:01. > :10:07.routes, as well as the effort we have been making in support of Iraqi

:10:08. > :10:10.forces. Could the Secretary of State then comment on recent reports in

:10:11. > :10:16.the New York Times that says that although Daesh numbers have fallen

:10:17. > :10:21.in both Iraq and Syria, the numbers and Libya have actually doubled in

:10:22. > :10:26.that same time period? And isn't it the case that the bombing campaign,

:10:27. > :10:31.rather than diminishing Daesh have actually simply displaced them? I do

:10:32. > :10:34.not think there is direct evidence of moving from one country to

:10:35. > :10:40.another. Daesh as in the back foot in Iraq, the Iraqi forces and

:10:41. > :10:48.Kurdish forces with support from the Coalition have liberated a number of

:10:49. > :10:55.cities and Daesh is being pushed back. That is not happening yet in

:10:56. > :10:58.Syria and I am can send about the proliferation of Daesh along the

:10:59. > :11:02.Libyan coastline which is why we have been urgently assisting the

:11:03. > :11:09.formation of a new Libyan government. -- concerned. Coalition

:11:10. > :11:16.efforts have a effect on stopping Daesh as well. In Iraq, but also

:11:17. > :11:21.domestically in Syria. With the Secretary of State agree with me

:11:22. > :11:25.that the full frontal assault on recto might have the opposite effect

:11:26. > :11:29.and possibly try to do something about the poisonous ideology and

:11:30. > :11:35.funding, it is more important than conventional attacks? I do agree. We

:11:36. > :11:40.have to look at all of these things and deal with Daesh across the

:11:41. > :11:46.border. From its ideology, we have to cut off its financing, we have to

:11:47. > :11:49.deal with the message that it is putting out to local populations and

:11:50. > :11:55.yes, preparations for the liberation of both cities are going to require

:11:56. > :12:01.very careful reparation to assure the Syria population that it will be

:12:02. > :12:08.able to enjoy better security once the Daesh are thrown out. As we

:12:09. > :12:12.considered these issues are thoughts are with the members of our Armed

:12:13. > :12:16.Forces currently serving in the Middle East. And all those living

:12:17. > :12:21.under the brutality of Daesh and the victims of terror attacks across the

:12:22. > :12:25.world. The secretary of state is right to simultaneously welcome the

:12:26. > :12:28.progress towards cease-fire in the contributions made while condemning

:12:29. > :12:31.the previous Russian attacks on moderate forces that the Coalition

:12:32. > :12:35.is working with. Can he tell us at this stage how reliable he feels

:12:36. > :12:41.with the 70,000 moderate Syrian forces at this moment in time? I am

:12:42. > :12:48.grateful to the honourable Tillman and indeed, the official support

:12:49. > :12:54.that has been given to the campaign against Daesh. The 70,000 figure was

:12:55. > :12:58.not the government's figure but a figure produced independently by the

:12:59. > :13:03.joint intelligence committee. We have no reason to believe that that

:13:04. > :13:09.figure is the wrong one, indeed the Civil War in Syria has been raging

:13:10. > :13:13.for six years now so there have been considerable forces engaged against

:13:14. > :13:20.the Syria and regime of which the 70,000 are a formidable part. Just

:13:21. > :13:26.two days ago, Isis launched a series of attacks the Kurdish forces to the

:13:27. > :13:31.north of rack up. Given that we were hoping that moderate forces were

:13:32. > :13:35.waiting to take the fact to -- that the macro fight to do Daesh is

:13:36. > :13:40.concerning. Can you tell us a little more about how effective you think

:13:41. > :13:43.the UK strikes have been in achieving our objectives with Daesh

:13:44. > :13:48.and supporting moderate forces to take back control and liberate rack

:13:49. > :13:54.a? UK is playing the second most important part and Coalition air

:13:55. > :14:00.activity and strikes. Surveillance and intelligence as well. Daesh are

:14:01. > :14:04.being pushed back in Iraq, no doubt about that. They have pushed up the

:14:05. > :14:09.Tigris and pushed back west along the Euphrates. It is much more

:14:10. > :14:14.complicated and we are concerned that some of the more recent reports

:14:15. > :14:21.that may suggest coordination between Syrian Democratic forces and

:14:22. > :14:26.the Assad regime, which is not helpful for the long-term state of

:14:27. > :14:34.defeating Daesh. Question number two. With permission I would like to

:14:35. > :14:39.answer questions two and 16 together. In the SDSR published last

:14:40. > :14:42.November, the Minister of defence agreed to new strategic objective to

:14:43. > :14:47.contributing to the nation pause my prosperity, we do this in many ways,

:14:48. > :14:51.not the least through procurement spending of 22 million a year with

:14:52. > :14:55.UK industry, half of which is in the manufacturing sector. The security

:14:56. > :14:59.defence industry is the largest in Europe and plays a vital role in

:15:00. > :15:03.providing battle winning capabilities for our Armed Forces.

:15:04. > :15:07.We are driving greater innovation for the defence procurement,

:15:08. > :15:12.maximizing opportunities for investing in skills, and contribute

:15:13. > :15:16.into a more prosperous economy. That sounded good Mr Speaker, and I am

:15:17. > :15:20.glad the department has such an objective but manufacturing industry

:15:21. > :15:23.in my constituency tell me that this government has seen far too little

:15:24. > :15:27.action in favour of manufacturing, not least in business rates. In

:15:28. > :15:30.pursuit of those objectives, what with the Minister tell me when he

:15:31. > :15:35.last spoke to the Department of business about refreshing and

:15:36. > :15:39.improving their industrial strategy? I can tell the honourable Lady that

:15:40. > :15:42.I have meetings with colleagues in the Department of business

:15:43. > :15:45.innovation skills on a monthly basis, I was in their offices

:15:46. > :15:53.earlier this month. We are constantly looking for better ways

:15:54. > :15:56.to encourage particular medium and businesses in engaging in the supply

:15:57. > :16:02.chain and I am pleased to tell the House that we have confirmed a

:16:03. > :16:09.target of 25% of minister he defence spending through direct and indirect

:16:10. > :16:12.spending. I am genuinely interested in the Minister's approach because I

:16:13. > :16:17.would like him to explain to the House why for example a new Royal

:16:18. > :16:21.navy offshore boats, 60 presented the steel for those boats has been

:16:22. > :16:24.procured from Sweden when in my part of the where old and Wales, we have

:16:25. > :16:29.a crisis on the behalf of the steel industry? I am happy to try and

:16:30. > :16:34.respond to the honourable gentleman in relation particularly to the

:16:35. > :16:38.specifics he raised. 20% of the steel used in the three offshore

:16:39. > :16:46.patrol vessels has been sourced from UK steel mills. The systems is the

:16:47. > :16:50.prime contractor and has 24 companies to tend to the steel

:16:51. > :16:54.contract, only for Mac or returned, one of which was from a British

:16:55. > :17:05.contractor which won the contract to provide steel which was been sourced

:17:06. > :17:09.from a wide range of suppliers. Not only did I see the skills that

:17:10. > :17:12.helped manufacture parts for Typhoon and joint strike fighter, but I saw

:17:13. > :17:17.the millions of pounds that they are investing in the training academy

:17:18. > :17:21.for the places opening later this year and also into 3-D printing what

:17:22. > :17:25.they will be able to make parts and prototypes vote in plastic and in

:17:26. > :17:29.metals. Does he agree with me that it is these investments that help to

:17:30. > :17:35.keep the systems at the forefront in their field in the world? I think

:17:36. > :17:42.the honourable gentleman speaks not only magnificent for his

:17:43. > :17:44.constituency but also for the defence contractor who's the main

:17:45. > :17:48.centre of innovation in his constituency. I would like to

:17:49. > :17:55.congratulate and applaud him for that. Given that the Ministry of

:17:56. > :17:59.defence procurement operates under European law, what assessment has

:18:00. > :18:03.the Minister made of the potential exit from the European Union on the

:18:04. > :18:12.UK businesses that rely on EU contracts? As the honourable

:18:13. > :18:16.gentleman knows, the UK defence and security industry is the largest in

:18:17. > :18:23.Europe, we continued to place as a default position, contracts on open

:18:24. > :18:27.competition basis. The EU procurement directives apply to our

:18:28. > :18:31.procurement, which means that EU contractors are eligible to compete

:18:32. > :18:35.for our contracts in the same way as UK and other international companies

:18:36. > :18:40.are other than those where we have declared the article 346 exemption

:18:41. > :18:49.from our stalls which accounts for about 35% of our procurement. On

:18:50. > :18:57.procurement, I hope that my honourable friend also applied to

:18:58. > :19:01.Arab territories and with the last recess, I had the chance of reaching

:19:02. > :19:08.out to men and women there. Will the government join me in playing,

:19:09. > :19:14.contribute... And will work closely with the fork Islands government to

:19:15. > :19:18.increase Erki Erm and their two British providers? I am grateful to

:19:19. > :19:22.my honourable friend for his question. I think he might prefer to

:19:23. > :19:27.ask that question to the Secretary of State, he just visited the

:19:28. > :19:31.foregoing islands, the first secretary of state to do so for over

:19:32. > :19:37.a decade. I can confirm to him that as part of the SDSR conclusions, we

:19:38. > :19:43.have committed to ?180 million from the Ministry of defence in the fork

:19:44. > :19:49.when islands, including... There are more than 14,000 high skilled value

:19:50. > :19:54.jobs in the sector in the Northwest alone. 40% higher than the national

:19:55. > :19:57.average. We heard before about the lack of a proper defence industrial

:19:58. > :20:02.strategy with respect to steal, so when is the government going to look

:20:03. > :20:07.at the other economic benefits when it comes to protecting those high

:20:08. > :20:11.skill, high value jobs but also creating new ones in the context of

:20:12. > :20:21.the defence procurement? I think the honourable gentleman should have a

:20:22. > :20:25.word with the leader of his party. We care about both security and

:20:26. > :20:28.prosperity on this side and the honourable gentleman might want to

:20:29. > :20:31.remind his leader that grandstanding on a Saturday places not only the

:20:32. > :20:36.ultimate security of the nation at risk but also the tens of thousands

:20:37. > :20:43.of jobs and hundreds of thousands of companies in the submarine industry

:20:44. > :20:51.in this country at risk. Thank you Mr Speaker, perhaps if the Minister

:20:52. > :20:54.listens to the questions and stops during allegations of grandstanding

:20:55. > :21:02.and takes serious the issue of the steel industry in this country, the

:21:03. > :21:07.chronic underinvestment in this country by this government is

:21:08. > :21:12.nothing less than national disgrace. As my honourable friend said

:21:13. > :21:16.earlier, 60% of steel required for the Royal Navy's offshore patrol

:21:17. > :21:27.vessels came from Sweden, to name just one. Doesn't the Minister agree

:21:28. > :21:32.that with the way employment, industrial and economic factors in

:21:33. > :21:41.this policy, which is obviously not working when he has such a low level

:21:42. > :21:45.of interest in these companies... UK supplies to make a significant

:21:46. > :21:49.contribution to supplied steel for our defence programmes, including

:21:50. > :21:53.some 94% of the steel in the aircraft carriers, 77,000 tonnes

:21:54. > :21:58.sourced from UK mills. But I do recognise and the government

:21:59. > :22:03.recognises that there is an issue affecting the UK steel industry and

:22:04. > :22:06.that is why we have established the UK steel procurement group which

:22:07. > :22:11.ministers are presenting and I instructed the department to our

:22:12. > :22:16.major defence contractors to ensure that the guidance on steel

:22:17. > :22:23.procurement is spread across the fence. Disengages the UK steel

:22:24. > :22:26.market through pipelines and will ensure cost copulations taken into

:22:27. > :22:32.account over the whole life and not the initial price. Exchanges today

:22:33. > :22:36.are a tad more windy. There are a lot of questions to get through.

:22:37. > :22:47.What is required is a pithy question and a pithy answer. It is not

:22:48. > :22:50.difficult. Question number three. With permission Mr Speaker I should

:22:51. > :22:55.like to answer questions three and ten together. Our civilian workers

:22:56. > :22:59.doing an excellent job and reductions in our workforce would

:23:00. > :23:03.require the MOD to continuously list the way we operate. The majority of

:23:04. > :23:07.plan reductions are already under way and there is now an opportunity

:23:08. > :23:12.to identify further efficiencies in defence. We want to deliver a small

:23:13. > :23:15.productive workforce that will ultimately generate savings for

:23:16. > :23:21.reinvestment into front-line capabilities. Does the Minister

:23:22. > :23:24.acknowledged that further cuts to the civilian workforce will

:23:25. > :23:29.inevitably shift the burden onto our armed forces personnel and how does

:23:30. > :23:32.he think that will affect the retention, recruitment, and morale

:23:33. > :23:35.of our troops which according to service men and women in my

:23:36. > :23:41.constituency, is already worryingly low was white know I do not because

:23:42. > :23:46.ultimately I think the savings which we will be able to make of ?300

:23:47. > :23:52.million will be able to be reinvested into front-line

:23:53. > :23:57.capability. How does he think the cut to civilian force will affect

:23:58. > :24:02.the expertise that he may lose as a result of those cuts? Under the

:24:03. > :24:09.whole force approach we try to find the balance between regular and

:24:10. > :24:13.reserve service personnel as well as MOD civilians and contractors. This

:24:14. > :24:16.is a mix that successive governments have followed and we try to use the

:24:17. > :24:26.right people in the right place at the right time. Civilians defence

:24:27. > :24:30.equipment and support for one of the MOD is most important responsible it

:24:31. > :24:37.is, making sure our troops have the right care. Along with other things

:24:38. > :24:42.they face cuts. DNS requires a high expertise such as making sure our

:24:43. > :24:48.aircraft are safe. Can the Minister explain how they propose a 30% cut

:24:49. > :24:55.without losing such vital skills? I am afraid I think the honourable

:24:56. > :25:00.Lady may be misinformed. The E and S to not... They do not have a 30%

:25:01. > :25:05.cut. There is not a blanket 30% cut across the fence. If anything she is

:25:06. > :25:10.slightly skimming and she should reflect on her comments. So the

:25:11. > :25:13.Minister is telling us that although there'll be 30% cut across the

:25:14. > :25:18.civilian staff there will be some areas where we will have higher than

:25:19. > :25:23.30% cuts to civilian staff and in some areas 20%. If it is in the

:25:24. > :25:26.strategic defence review, 30% cuts to civilian staff, they say they

:25:27. > :25:32.will not be in DES, so where would they be? The fact of the matter is,

:25:33. > :25:38.the last two years alone, DN as have lost 5000 staff, and at the same

:25:39. > :25:42.time at the cost of contractors have spiralled so that we are now in a

:25:43. > :25:46.ludicrous position where the public accounts committee says we're

:25:47. > :25:53.spending ?250 million on contractors who are advising us on how to

:25:54. > :25:56.reduced reliance on contractors. Perhaps the Minister should take

:25:57. > :26:01.these cuts in a strategic way as opposed to using arbitrary cuts. I

:26:02. > :26:06.am grateful for the pithy question. LAUGHTER There is a basic

:26:07. > :26:09.misunderstanding here where the honourable lady needs to understand

:26:10. > :26:13.that many of these programmes are already in place, for example the

:26:14. > :26:18.footprint strategy which will see our reduction of our footprint by

:26:19. > :26:23.some of 30% will actually mean that we will have less need for civilians

:26:24. > :26:26.in certain parts of the estate. Some of these measures are already under

:26:27. > :26:38.way so we do not simply have to impose a blanket 30% cut, in DENS.

:26:39. > :26:44.They tell is the cornerstone of the United Kingdom's defence. -- Nato

:26:45. > :26:54.is. The European Union plays an important role in supporting Nato's

:26:55. > :27:00.response to international crisis, applying economic humanitarian and

:27:01. > :27:03.diplomatic levers, that Nato does not have. The government therefore

:27:04. > :27:08.believes that the United Kingdom continued membership of a reformed

:27:09. > :27:15.European Union will make us safer and stronger. A cyber threats pose a

:27:16. > :27:20.significant risk to the B defence of the UK, and this has been identified

:27:21. > :27:25.as one of the four security challenges in the 2015 review. But

:27:26. > :27:30.the BU network and Director was created in 2014 to enhance the

:27:31. > :27:35.security of EU member states and is vital that cyber security continues

:27:36. > :27:39.to be a priority for the MOD. As the Minister agree that remaining as a

:27:40. > :27:46.member of the EU greatly enhances our ability to respond to future of

:27:47. > :27:54.cyber threats? Our recent statistic -- strategic review identifies cyber

:27:55. > :27:58.as one of the key threats facing this country. My department has

:27:59. > :28:04.taken over our responsibility for that for cyber security and we are

:28:05. > :28:07.spending over ?2 billion on it. So we can ensure that we keep the

:28:08. > :28:10.institutions of government properly protected, and we do our best to

:28:11. > :28:19.spread good practice amongst our industry as well. On a scale of

:28:20. > :28:25.1-10, and in terms of preserving our national security, I would be

:28:26. > :28:30.Secretary of State rate and compare our membership of Nato with our

:28:31. > :28:35.membership of the EU? I have already said that Nato is the cornerstone of

:28:36. > :28:39.our defence. The EU plays a complementary role. I have not come

:28:40. > :28:43.across any Nato Defense ministers who thinks we should leave the EU or

:28:44. > :28:52.that we would be safer and stronger outside of it the European Union.

:28:53. > :28:56.These two -- the memberships of these two organisations, taken

:28:57. > :29:01.together, does keep a stronger and safer and -- in an uncertain world.

:29:02. > :29:06.Does he think that President Houston, which edits here is the UK

:29:07. > :29:10.left the EU, isn't it clear that we are better off being part of that

:29:11. > :29:15.collaboration, sitting around a table with France, Germany, thinking

:29:16. > :29:19.about all of those security issues. I would not in her office and safer

:29:20. > :29:25.remain part of the EU? -- President Clinton. He was the EU that was able

:29:26. > :29:39.to oppose sanctions on President Clinton 40 dead in... -- Putin. I

:29:40. > :29:46.think Putin would welcome any fracture of either Nato or the EU.

:29:47. > :29:53.Was he not accept that by advancing this point idea that somehow our

:29:54. > :29:59.membership of the EU enhances our national security, is merely playing

:30:00. > :30:03.into the hands of those like Chancellor Merkel, who wants this

:30:04. > :30:09.boat is taken if Britain where the rural vote to remain in the EU, with

:30:10. > :30:13.advanced towards a European army, the result of which will be to

:30:14. > :30:19.undermine Nato, that the organisation he says it the

:30:20. > :30:23.cornerstone of national defence. Let me make it clear that we would not

:30:24. > :30:30.support any move towards a European union army of the kind that my

:30:31. > :30:34.Honorable friend suggests. These two organisations have different

:30:35. > :30:40.memberships at slightly different objectives. Nato is the key part of

:30:41. > :30:46.our defence. It is the cornerstone. But there aren't levers available to

:30:47. > :30:52.the EU, legal, economic, and diplomatic that Nato does not have.

:30:53. > :30:56.Different membership that the numbers above gives of the best of

:30:57. > :31:03.both worlds. That's big number the boat. He must the knowledge that

:31:04. > :31:06.some would prefer a European defence force to ultimately replace Nato.

:31:07. > :31:09.Can you tell the House with his dues are on that and will he also

:31:10. > :31:17.acknowledged that most of our European security successes are

:31:18. > :31:23.bilateral and not as part of the EU? I have not had a fellow European

:31:24. > :31:27.defence minister called on us to create any type of defence force. It

:31:28. > :31:37.was interesting that at the last minute meeting, --/NATO, Germany

:31:38. > :31:41.asked for Nato to help police the UG GMC to have the would-be migrant

:31:42. > :31:46.pressure. Though the role of some of these operations for Nato, a role in

:31:47. > :31:51.other areas for the EU. We are fortunate of being numbers above.

:31:52. > :31:55.Does the Secretary of State agree that it is essential that all

:31:56. > :31:59.members of our Armed Forces serving away from home lesbian being able to

:32:00. > :32:10.vote in the general referendum? -- June referendum. Yes. I will of

:32:11. > :32:17.course, following her reminder, I will ensure that we make every

:32:18. > :32:28.effort to ensure a higher turnout by the Armed Forces as possible. Ngosso

:32:29. > :32:35.the house on the 16th of December that doctors diagnosed after that

:32:36. > :32:39.date -- veterans diagnosed, would receive a payment of ?140,000. I

:32:40. > :32:44.also committed to look at whether this can be extended to veterans

:32:45. > :32:48.diagnosed before that date. We have kept our work and I'm delighted to

:32:49. > :32:52.confirm that this option of a lump sum payment will be extended to

:32:53. > :32:59.veterans who received the war pension, diagnosed before the 2nd of

:33:00. > :33:12.December 2015 as well. That is good news. Many of us in the house, this

:33:13. > :33:22.will be very welcome. I will people affected be able to claim this money

:33:23. > :33:25.going forward? I have instructed the veteran agency to contact all those

:33:26. > :33:29.who we know with immediate effect and I hope these payments will be

:33:30. > :33:36.made shortly after the 11th of April. Will the Minister Dummy

:33:37. > :33:41.impact every to those members who have campaigned and others on this

:33:42. > :33:48.issue and I welcome, where he also paid tribute but the Navy sailor who

:33:49. > :33:52.was recently diagnosed as has to benefit when he got the one issue

:33:53. > :33:58.that more research is to be done and to this devastating disease. I

:33:59. > :34:02.recognise the actions of of of both sides of the house who attend --

:34:03. > :34:05.campaign to ensure the changes. The last. I'm delighted to stay ahead

:34:06. > :34:09.today to make this announcement. It is directing to do. -- stand here

:34:10. > :34:17.today. -- it is the right thing to do. I have recently got me contacted

:34:18. > :34:19.that's been contacted, who is concerned that services are not

:34:20. > :34:30.being properly funded. Does the Minister find research... It is

:34:31. > :34:34.rightly a matter for the Department of Health, but a more than happy to

:34:35. > :34:42.pick that up with them to see what can be done. I'm delighted to

:34:43. > :34:49.welcome the information. They were cautioned. To make sure that when

:34:50. > :34:53.people are given the option, that there is no unintended consequences,

:34:54. > :35:02.specifically for what was -- what words. For many years, to make sure

:35:03. > :35:05.that if the option of a lump sum, and does not have an impact on her

:35:06. > :35:15.in terms of getting benefits over the years. I page every to him. He

:35:16. > :35:19.is absolutely right. I simply emphasise to the house, this is an

:35:20. > :35:23.option. I will ensure that when recipients are notified, but there

:35:24. > :35:32.are fully informed as to what the options actually mean.

:35:33. > :35:40.The OAD have been undertaking site monitoring rules and stood up alone.

:35:41. > :35:44.We are capable to the next days when the other third parties of agree to

:35:45. > :35:48.site access. Discussion around the taken place at it it is anticipated

:35:49. > :35:51.that an agreement will be signed shortly. We will continue to work

:35:52. > :35:57.closely with all parties to ensure that the matter is resolved as

:35:58. > :36:03.quickly as possible. After 26 years, this nonaction is just not good

:36:04. > :36:07.enough. In recent weeks, the officials have cancelled meetings

:36:08. > :36:11.with landowners to discuss access. They have failed to turn up to

:36:12. > :36:15.meetings with local elective officials, and oxidant at local

:36:16. > :36:18.community with content. When I'm at the Minister on Wednesday, I hope I

:36:19. > :36:27.can get a detailed timeline of when action is going to be taken. I don't

:36:28. > :36:30.accept as the he says. Per my understanding, we have been making

:36:31. > :36:36.positive progress. Action has been taken through monetary and removal

:36:37. > :36:38.is available. There will be him of the responsibilities are in this

:36:39. > :36:41.matter. I look forward to meeting with the honourable gentleman later

:36:42. > :36:44.this week but I look forward to meeting with the honourable

:36:45. > :36:45.gentleman later this week by how we can have constructive approach to

:36:46. > :37:00.moving this issue forward. The new purpose figure, will be

:37:01. > :37:06.crucial for the longer-term future of the UK's for shipbuilding

:37:07. > :37:08.industry. And form a central part of the national shipbuilding strategy,

:37:09. > :37:13.which is due to be published later this year. The decision is expected

:37:14. > :37:19.to be made on the build location into the programme is prepared.

:37:20. > :37:23.Given the expectations that the government raised following the

:37:24. > :37:30.SDSR, that answer is most unwelcome. Does he not agree with me that given

:37:31. > :37:34.the finest ships, anywhere in the world were built, will be the

:37:35. > :37:41.perfect location for this to take place. Three and a half billion has

:37:42. > :37:46.been spent to date on the aircraft carrier programme in Scotland. In

:37:47. > :37:50.2014, we placed the hundred 48 million contract for three of the

:37:51. > :37:57.fees, hoping to sustain a hundred Scottish jobs. And helping to zoo

:37:58. > :38:05.the skills for the eight type 20 type global sales to be constructed.

:38:06. > :38:11.They also may be built on the clock, but too early to commit now. That's

:38:12. > :38:15.on the Clyde. On making this isn't, what a given that the need to avoid

:38:16. > :38:22.the difficulties of the type 45 have had in the electrical and mechanical

:38:23. > :38:27.motion systems? Yes. They are friendships. There were mistakes

:38:28. > :38:37.made under the last government. -- find ships. The Lord heard today,

:38:38. > :38:41.how the patrol vessels, the Minister has admitted that the have been made

:38:42. > :38:45.in Korea with Bristol. They can commit where distillate is going to

:38:46. > :38:52.come home for the type essay. How will we know that but it still will

:38:53. > :38:57.be used for these? Desperate stuff. He is our genetic Opera answer on

:38:58. > :39:02.the use of steel. They will have the opportunity to bid as they always

:39:03. > :39:06.have. We clearly cannot commit in advance of that. We don't even know

:39:07. > :39:17.for certain that British companies will be dusted. We can not commit at

:39:18. > :39:20.this stage. As part of the defence programme, we are reviewing a series

:39:21. > :39:23.of options that are expected to change the way we please bug are

:39:24. > :39:28.some of our establishment. It is early to say what the impact will be

:39:29. > :39:32.on a number of them of the police. -- it of the police. Can you tell me

:39:33. > :39:39.what legal advice he has sought or seek in relation to potentially

:39:40. > :39:41.removing the arm and said Defense police from civilian establishments

:39:42. > :39:48.and replacing them with forces personnel? There are a number of

:39:49. > :39:55.options we are looking at of how we can make the best use of our

:39:56. > :39:59.ministry of Defense police. So the gap a more proactive role in the

:40:00. > :40:02.communities and our service communities. There have been a

:40:03. > :40:05.number of discussions, but the doctors had yet to be explored fully

:40:06. > :40:18.and I will, to the house in due course. Not wishing to the in any

:40:19. > :40:23.way from the wonderful work done by the Ministry of Defense, we've this

:40:24. > :40:30.opportunity to present the work of the world Marines, who police are

:40:31. > :40:33.nuclear facilities in Scotland? I am delighted to join him and the

:40:34. > :40:36.present the work that the Marines have done. I have seen first-hand in

:40:37. > :40:46.recent years. Where there are allegations of

:40:47. > :40:50.serious wrongdoing, they need to be investigated. We are aware of the

:40:51. > :40:53.stressed that the places on our service personnel. We must honour

:40:54. > :40:57.our duty of care to them. This will involve an independent legal advice

:40:58. > :41:01.and support, however where are also aware that a great many allegations

:41:02. > :41:05.are being made on grounds of malice, all by some law firm for profit.

:41:06. > :41:13.Will shortly bring forward measures to close down the shameless and

:41:14. > :41:20.shoddy record. Of allegations were found to be false by the Inquirer.

:41:21. > :41:25.Does my friend agreed that we should all began to reclaim Loughran who

:41:26. > :41:29.shamefully promoted this allegations that anybody who received financial

:41:30. > :41:34.backing from them will be well biased to either return or to make a

:41:35. > :41:40.donation to help the heroes? I thank him for writing this point. The

:41:41. > :41:45.Casey raises the cost of a taxpayer 31 million to defend. The law firm

:41:46. > :41:51.involved have been referred to the solicitors do so -- tribunal. We're

:41:52. > :41:55.looking at ways we can would improve cost, and in others. Those who have

:41:56. > :42:03.their own associations with that firms will need to make their own

:42:04. > :42:06.judgements. Contact him and said to have clarity of intent is picking

:42:07. > :42:11.over the heads of the present soldiers and brave soldiers and

:42:12. > :42:14.servicemen to those who I joined the Army, very worrying for getting

:42:15. > :42:21.people thinking that they might be serving their country and finish up

:42:22. > :42:30.to be accused of that full-time. -- accuse a dreadful crimes. This is a

:42:31. > :42:34.huge stress to service personnel. It corrupts their operations and it

:42:35. > :42:36.also undermines human rights by undermining international

:42:37. > :42:39.humanitarian law. I can totally see why some one who want to join the

:42:40. > :42:42.Armed Forces would be concerned about all three of those things.

:42:43. > :42:50.That is why we bring forward a number of measures that will address

:42:51. > :42:54.all three. The minister and the Secretary of State, have been very

:42:55. > :42:59.vocal about the importance of bringing forward a bill to protect

:43:00. > :43:05.service personnel from spirits, costly, and stressful legal action.

:43:06. > :43:10.There have been one of form reports that the bill is ready to proceed,

:43:11. > :43:18.but is being held of an Downing Street for fear that it might

:43:19. > :43:24.somehow impinge on an forthcoming EU referendum debate. Can she confirm

:43:25. > :43:28.that her department will do as much as possible to ensure that this

:43:29. > :43:34.legislation is brought forward at the earliest opportunity and not

:43:35. > :43:43.delayed for any external political reasons? I can give my friend those

:43:44. > :43:46.reassurances. In all respects, the information he is working on is not

:43:47. > :43:51.correct. There will be a number of measures that will be brought to. So

:43:52. > :43:57.maybe attached to pieces of legislation and we are hoping to be

:43:58. > :44:05.able to make announcements on this before local government kicks in. We

:44:06. > :44:09.do not envision the point ground forces to Libya in a combat role.

:44:10. > :44:15.The United Kingdom is considering with our partners have a and new

:44:16. > :44:19.Libyan government. Lang to focus on capacity building and security

:44:20. > :44:23.sector reform, but it's too early to say what form that support would

:44:24. > :44:27.take. Before taking any military action in Libya, we would seek an

:44:28. > :44:35.invitation on the new Libyan government. I thank him for that

:44:36. > :44:40.response. I've disappointed to read the comments in the media stating

:44:41. > :44:44.that he had authorised the use of UK bases for US air strikes. The matter

:44:45. > :44:48.has not brought to the server in advance. And yesterday of papers,

:44:49. > :44:52.the government is now also the point British advisers to Libya. Will he

:44:53. > :44:58.commit to stopping this mission, and making sure that no further such

:44:59. > :45:01.actions happen without comment to the house. And he explained whether

:45:02. > :45:08.the action than it was lawful under UK standards, the use of force, and

:45:09. > :45:12.human rights laws? The United States, follow standard procedures

:45:13. > :45:20.and medical request to use our basis was we had desk-bound about

:45:21. > :45:25.legality. I granted permission for them to use our basis to support.

:45:26. > :45:29.They are trying to prevent the Daesh from using with the a base from

:45:30. > :45:34.which to plan and carry out attacks that threaten the stability of Libya

:45:35. > :45:38.and the region and potentially the United Kingdom and our people, too.

:45:39. > :45:46.I was satisfied that the operation, which was a US operation, would be

:45:47. > :45:49.connected on that international law. Could he set out what level of

:45:50. > :45:54.military involvement in the government believes the British

:45:55. > :45:56.military has to engage in in Libya, is for the diamonds that would bring

:45:57. > :46:06.any decisions regarding military intervention to the house? Would

:46:07. > :46:14.deny intent deploy ground forces in any combat role. -- we do not plan

:46:15. > :46:20.to deploy. We would, of course, have to seek an invitation from the

:46:21. > :46:27.government and what also involved this problem. We have, as part of

:46:28. > :46:31.the international community, and we are ready to provide advice and

:46:32. > :46:37.training and support of the new Libyan government. I can also form

:46:38. > :46:41.the house that a shining team of some 20 troops on the fourth

:46:42. > :46:46.industry grade is now moving to Tunisia to help counter illegal

:46:47. > :46:52.cross-border movement from Libya and support of the Tunisian authorities.

:46:53. > :47:01.Go to bed. A very sad and miserable away. So the last question. Their

:47:02. > :47:06.words have been proactive in terms of submitting reports of civilian

:47:07. > :47:11.casualties. We are grateful for the efforts. -- air war. Each case has

:47:12. > :47:14.been reviewed, and has the demonstrated that visibly casualties

:47:15. > :47:20.were not caused by UK activities. Our process are robust in the

:47:21. > :47:27.respect than others. But I would welcome any other further ideas

:47:28. > :47:30.about how they can add value. The department is now suing people to

:47:31. > :47:35.discuss accurate civilian casualty numbers. I am most grateful to the

:47:36. > :47:41.department if that is accurate. But will there were four that has been

:47:42. > :47:45.in the department now, some about compensation for the families of

:47:46. > :47:56.innocent victims of our bombing, will that report now be serviced? I

:47:57. > :48:02.have committed to review any such reports of the visit that civilian

:48:03. > :48:06.casualties. I have oversight at the whole process, including

:48:07. > :48:15.compensation. If he has specific cases that he wishes to raise,

:48:16. > :48:20.please do so. It is our operation against Daesh, which I reviewed

:48:21. > :48:24.earlier this month. 40, international counterparts in

:48:25. > :48:27.delivering our review commitments. To increase the size and power of

:48:28. > :48:36.our Armed Forces, to keep this country safe. With the Russian

:48:37. > :48:39.aggression that doesn't Daesh and growing cyber attack, can my right

:48:40. > :48:44.honourable friend confirm that the government is committed to spending

:48:45. > :48:51.2% of GDP every year, for this Parliament understands? And doesn't

:48:52. > :48:55.the Honorable Lady data to match this commitment so that labor is a

:48:56. > :49:04.risk to our security? That staggered to match. Questions must be about, I

:49:05. > :49:07.appreciate the earnestness and commitment. Question must be about

:49:08. > :49:14.government policy for which ministers are responsible. Order! Be

:49:15. > :49:20.quiet. Ministers are responsible for government policy, not that of the

:49:21. > :49:26.opposition. On the government's policy, he will not.

:49:27. > :49:32.Can I confirm, that this government is committed to spending 2% of GDP

:49:33. > :49:38.on defence every year of this Parliament. The defence budget will

:49:39. > :49:41.rise by North .5% above inflation every year this decade. The

:49:42. > :49:44.additional funding will be made available to the Armed Forces and

:49:45. > :49:51.intelligence agencies through the joint security funding. We have the

:49:52. > :49:54.largest defence budget and the European Union, and the

:49:55. > :50:00.second-largest in Nato. This keeps us safe. We circulated without

:50:01. > :50:06.delay, as all members of the Cabinet. I

:50:07. > :50:13.continues to create serious health risk, including leading to the loss

:50:14. > :50:17.of life in the Armed Forces. The Times higher in an civilian

:50:18. > :50:21.population. It is now a year since the defence select committee

:50:22. > :50:24.highlighted that the government strategy with the Armed Forces has

:50:25. > :50:29.not made any noticeable difference. What steps is the Minister now

:50:30. > :50:34.taking to set targets to manage alcohol consumption patterns and

:50:35. > :50:37.address this serious issue? In the Army, under the new Army leadership

:50:38. > :50:42.code, is taking steps to address this particular problem. I will

:50:43. > :50:53.write to the lady with further details. Clinical Lab government

:50:54. > :50:57.look at all the alternatives to our continuous. -- the old government.

:50:58. > :51:02.None are the operative protection. Does he agree with a two former

:51:03. > :51:06.lover defence secretaries, it is self-evident that a British nuclear

:51:07. > :51:14.deterrent will be essential to our security for decades to come. --

:51:15. > :51:18.former labor costs. In 2013, the alternative review concluded. That

:51:19. > :51:25.no system is a stable, or cost-effective at the current

:51:26. > :51:26.database deterrent. There is no alternative, the part-time

:51:27. > :51:30.deterrents are half-baked measures currently being suggested by some

:51:31. > :51:34.members of the body opposite, could be exploited by our adversaries. And

:51:35. > :51:42.to present a real danger to the safety and security the UK. Russian

:51:43. > :51:50.bomber targets, civilians, Sarah, driver refugee crisis to the shores

:51:51. > :51:57.of Europe. New -- Russia's Vegas to haul and short on the civilian

:51:58. > :52:03.population to design was established in for the second quarter. --

:52:04. > :52:07.Russia's failure. That is why it is important that the cease-fire holds

:52:08. > :52:10.and Russia returns to a more constructive part, and working with

:52:11. > :52:16.us to get this terrible civil war ended. With the body of the

:52:17. > :52:23.sophistication of cyber attacks gone so rapidly, and number of which are

:52:24. > :52:26.sorted by the GHQ, what that survey taken to assure our rotting defence

:52:27. > :52:33.budget actually translates to enhance sovereign capability in

:52:34. > :52:37.cyber? I patiently to all of his constituents that worked there

:52:38. > :52:45.protecting against cyber attacks. We have increased spending in this area

:52:46. > :52:52.to 2.5 billion, and 80% of cyber attacks are able to be prevented by

:52:53. > :52:55.answering the simple, straightforward to practice. A lot

:52:56. > :53:02.of that investment will be going to protect British businesses and

:53:03. > :53:12.private individuals in that respect. The SDSR in 2012,... 16 billion

:53:13. > :53:17.allocated for nuclear submarines, some that has been massive cuts

:53:18. > :53:22.elsewhere to support that. The that's a clever plan, which asked on

:53:23. > :53:26.the subject is. Can the Minister then commit to providing for the

:53:27. > :53:36.clarity of the changes that will affect... That is a bit of a

:53:37. > :53:42.subject. We will be publishing the next annual alliteration and an

:53:43. > :53:46.excellent with them straight there will be an addition of public and

:53:47. > :53:53.bounds committed to spending on military equipment over the next ten

:53:54. > :54:01.years. Cohabitation before he sees how that is allocated. It was in

:54:02. > :54:08.December 2014, will the Secretary of State told this house that the legal

:54:09. > :54:11.aid to Cave, should be reimbursed. Add this to do that it will be

:54:12. > :54:18.reimbursed and given the timescales that I pass so far, when has he

:54:19. > :54:22.think the money will be received? We are waiting the little ad agency

:54:23. > :54:26.response to our request to revoke the legal aid award on the grounds

:54:27. > :54:31.that it would not have been made in the first place, have the agency

:54:32. > :54:35.been made aware of all relevant document dictation in the case. We

:54:36. > :54:43.are waiting on that judgement but we believe it is imminent. Not content,

:54:44. > :54:47.with comparing himself to our country's wartime leader, a Sevilla

:54:48. > :54:51.the free world. This weekend, the Mayor of London compared his

:54:52. > :54:57.opposition to the EU, to James Bond, taking on a sinister, supernational

:54:58. > :55:03.organisation. Can ask the Secretary of State weather in all his dealings

:55:04. > :55:09.with intelligence and security services, such as similarity has

:55:10. > :55:13.ever occurred to him? I don't think it would be wise, and would not be

:55:14. > :55:15.proper to discuss in the conversations I have had it with the

:55:16. > :55:22.intelligence and security communities.

:55:23. > :55:31.Can my friend confirm that would have to spend hundred million

:55:32. > :55:38.pounds, and that the money is spent on iTunes and give give them the

:55:39. > :55:43.best support in the equipment? I think he read of a good point. The

:55:44. > :55:46.money that we are having to spend on a malicious allegations against him

:55:47. > :55:50.forces will be better spent on equipment and training for them. I

:55:51. > :55:53.can give some assurance that commercial, legal spending end of

:55:54. > :56:02.the department is down at third on last year. In specific relation, the

:56:03. > :56:05.amount spent, we are doing our what we can to assure that it works more

:56:06. > :56:10.effectively and efficiently. I've had good conversations with the

:56:11. > :56:16.Attorney General's Office. He'll be busy to them shortly. Given the

:56:17. > :56:20.increasing double counting of this expenditure to the ODA and Nato

:56:21. > :56:23.target, mechanisms such as the conflict security and stability

:56:24. > :56:29.fund, with discussion has they had with the Chancellor about the

:56:30. > :56:37.redefinition of always be? It is for the OED, development aid spending

:56:38. > :56:38.and for Nato to classify what is acceptable as defence spending,

:56:39. > :56:51.which will do Given the importance of our new

:56:52. > :56:54.Google national security, can my honourable friend tell the House

:56:55. > :57:03.would support the government has in this policy in this important area?

:57:04. > :57:06.I have so far received conflicting representations on the future of our

:57:07. > :57:09.nuclear deterrent. There are mainstream members of the party

:57:10. > :57:16.opposite as there are right across this house who support us -- support

:57:17. > :57:19.every previous government the nuclear church deterrent that has

:57:20. > :57:23.kept discovering -- government say. Other parts of the party seemed to

:57:24. > :57:31.think we can turn our nuclear sub greens into water taxis. Germany and

:57:32. > :57:36.Sweden have stopped selling weapons to Saudi Arabia as a result of

:57:37. > :57:41.concerns over Saudi Arabia and -- Saudi actions in Yemen. What about

:57:42. > :57:46.the ban of arms sales to Saudi Arabia? All of our defence exports

:57:47. > :57:49.to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia or any country goes through the same

:57:50. > :57:54.rigorous export control system that we have in place which we are proud

:57:55. > :57:58.of. It is more rigorous we believe than any other country. That will be

:57:59. > :58:05.the case while this government is in power. I recently visited the

:58:06. > :58:13.Marines on Arctic warfare training in Norway, my honourable friend is

:58:14. > :58:17.and the honourable lady from their various constituencies. Will my

:58:18. > :58:23.honourable friend join me in applauding one group, one of the

:58:24. > :58:26.elite, forces in the world and explain how the strategic defence

:58:27. > :58:32.and security review will be supporting more Marines. My

:58:33. > :58:36.honourable friend is very brave to have joined the Royal Marines in the

:58:37. > :58:42.Arctic. I pay tribute to her and her colleagues for doing so. We are

:58:43. > :58:45.committed to maintaining fitness capability, we will be making

:58:46. > :58:48.modifications to one of the two Queen Elizabeth carriers to ensure

:58:49. > :58:57.that persists for the for suitable future and the life of that

:58:58. > :59:04.platform. Under this prime minister, police personnel has dropped 340

:59:05. > :59:09.from 1482 1140. Police numbers have dropped 80 from 1700 to 1620 and

:59:10. > :59:15.Royal Navy police numbers have dropped 40 from 342 300. Does the

:59:16. > :59:21.Secretary of State think these cuts under the Prime Minister are

:59:22. > :59:26.acceptable? The task that we allocate our personnel are there for

:59:27. > :59:31.operational reasons. That is how we allocate, not only the liability of

:59:32. > :59:38.each of our services but also the trades that sit within them. Along

:59:39. > :59:43.with many of my colleagues I also talked during recess and had the

:59:44. > :59:48.pleasure of visiting the fourth. They were concerned about the

:59:49. > :59:52.economic point of view. From a national security point of view will

:59:53. > :59:55.my right honourable friend confirm if government will always defend the

:59:56. > :00:03.right to the Islanders to defend them I could determine their own

:00:04. > :00:05.future? As I said earlier it was a pleasure to be the first defence

:00:06. > :00:09.secretary to visit the island for over a decade to meet over the 1200

:00:10. > :00:15.service personnel who are based there and to confirm our investment

:00:16. > :00:20.programme of 180 million over the next ten years. Unlike the Labour

:00:21. > :00:24.Party, there is nobody who can be in any doubt about our commitment to

:00:25. > :00:30.the right of the Islanders to determine their own future and not

:00:31. > :00:37.have it bargained away by a possible labour government reaching some

:00:38. > :00:41.accommodation with Argentina. My constituent Chris Hartley was

:00:42. > :00:46.wounded while serving our arm versus in Syria by a rocket to know --

:00:47. > :00:50.rocket propelled grenade. He lost his right leg above the knee. He is

:00:51. > :00:54.unable to get funding or in HS support for a life-changing

:00:55. > :00:57.operation that would allow him to work and restore some of the pride

:00:58. > :01:02.he had before his injury. Will you meet with the Department of health

:01:03. > :01:05.and myself to discuss what can be done to help my constituency who

:01:06. > :01:12.gave so much to this country? I would be delighted. Is it not the

:01:13. > :01:14.case of the United Kingdom left European Union and it is more

:01:15. > :01:19.rightly that France and Germany would dominate Europe's defence

:01:20. > :01:24.structures. Meaning the median term over the horizon that we are more

:01:25. > :01:29.likely to see European defence structures compete rather than

:01:30. > :01:34.complement Nato? My honourable friend has made his views in this

:01:35. > :01:40.great debate very clear. As I said to the House earlier, Nato is the

:01:41. > :01:45.cornerstone of our security, the European Union compliments that with

:01:46. > :01:49.a number of other levers and weapons at its disposal. Humanitarian,

:01:50. > :01:55.diplomatic, and economic and there is no doubt in my mind that the

:01:56. > :02:00.fracturing of either the alliance or the union would not aid the

:02:01. > :02:04.collective security of the West. Have any embedded British pilots

:02:05. > :02:18.flown in emissions at all into Libya? -- missions. No. Since the

:02:19. > :02:23.parliamentary vote on Syria at the beginning of December, there have

:02:24. > :02:29.been 319 RAF air strikes against Daesh in Iraq and 43 RAF air strikes

:02:30. > :02:33.against Daesh and Syria. Since we have been targeting the head of the

:02:34. > :02:39.snake, why have the bed and seven and a half times more air strikes in

:02:40. > :02:44.Iraq? There are more I struck -- air strikes in Iraq and then Syria in

:02:45. > :02:48.December and indeed January because we were engaged in assisting the

:02:49. > :02:53.Iraqi forces liberate Ramani which is where most of the military action

:02:54. > :03:00.was and assisting the Kurdish forces in the liberation of a city further

:03:01. > :03:05.north. But as I discussed with my fellow ministers in Brussels, it is

:03:06. > :03:10.also important to continue to attack the infrastructure that supports the

:03:11. > :03:15.Daesh, including the oil wellheads from which it derives its revenue

:03:16. > :03:22.and some of our strikes have been on those oil fields in eastern Syria.

:03:23. > :03:25.Urgent question, Eva Cooper. To ask the home Secretary to make a

:03:26. > :03:37.statement on child refugees in Calais. Thank you very much Mr

:03:38. > :03:42.Speaker, last Thursday a judge in France ruled that the authorities in

:03:43. > :03:45.Calais could proceed with clearing the tents and makeshift

:03:46. > :03:49.accommodation from the southern section of the migrant camp located

:03:50. > :03:54.there. Over recent weeks, the authorities working with NGOs have

:03:55. > :03:59.ensured that the migrants affected by the clearances which began today

:04:00. > :04:03.were aware of the alternative accommodation that the French state

:04:04. > :04:07.had made available. For women and children, this means that the

:04:08. > :04:14.specials accommodation for around 400 people in and around the centre,

:04:15. > :04:19.or the protected accommodation elsewhere in the region. For others,

:04:20. > :04:25.this means that the recently erected heating containers which can house

:04:26. > :04:27.1500 people. The government with the support of UK funding established

:04:28. > :04:33.over 100 welcome centres elsewhere in France, where migrants in Calais

:04:34. > :04:38.can find dead, meals, and information about their options. To

:04:39. > :04:43.be clear, no individual needs to remain in the camps and Calais and

:04:44. > :04:49.Dunkirk. The decision to clear parts of the campaign Calais is of course

:04:50. > :04:53.a part of the French government. The declaration decided in August last

:04:54. > :04:58.year committed the UK and France to a package of work to improve

:04:59. > :05:02.physical security, to co-ordinate law enforcement response, to tackle

:05:03. > :05:05.the criminal gangs involved in people smuggling, and to reduce the

:05:06. > :05:14.number of migrants in Calais. Both governments returned a strong

:05:15. > :05:16.protection of those vulnerable to trafficking -- trafficking and

:05:17. > :05:21.exhortation. We can identify and help potential victims in the camps

:05:22. > :05:28.around Calais. -- extortion. The UK is playing a leading role in

:05:29. > :05:31.tackling people smuggling, and we managed to target the games that

:05:32. > :05:37.exploit human beings for their own gain. The UK shares the French

:05:38. > :05:41.government is not objective of increasing the number of individuals

:05:42. > :05:45.who can offer safe and fully equipped accommodation further away

:05:46. > :05:50.from Calais so they can engage with the French immigration system,

:05:51. > :05:53.including launching an asylum claim. It is important to stress that

:05:54. > :05:58.anyone who does not want to live in the makeshift camps in Calais has

:05:59. > :06:04.the option of engaging with the French authorities who will provide

:06:05. > :06:08.accommodation and support. This is particularly important with regards

:06:09. > :06:13.to unaccompanied children. Where an asylum claim is watched by a child

:06:14. > :06:18.with close family connections in the UK, the government are ensuring the

:06:19. > :06:23.cases prioritise. It isn't -- it is vital that they engage with the

:06:24. > :06:26.government as quickly as possible. This is the best way to ensure these

:06:27. > :06:31.vulnerable children receive the protection and support they need and

:06:32. > :06:36.the quickest way to reunite them with any close family members in the

:06:37. > :06:41.UK. The UK is committed to safeguarding the welfare of Anna got

:06:42. > :06:44.-- unaccompanied children and we take our response ability seriously.

:06:45. > :06:49.No one should live in the conditions in Calais. The French government has

:06:50. > :06:53.made huge efforts to provide suitable alternative accommodation

:06:54. > :06:57.for all of those who need it. And has made clear that the migrants and

:06:58. > :07:06.Calais in need of protection should claim asylum in France. This morning

:07:07. > :07:11.the French authorities started to move people out of the southern part

:07:12. > :07:15.of the Calais refugee camp. In theory to contain shelters and

:07:16. > :07:21.reception centres elsewhere. They say it is not enough of alternative

:07:22. > :07:28.accommodation, around 2300 people have nowhere to go. That means many

:07:29. > :07:31.from Syria, Afghanistan, and includes over 400 children and

:07:32. > :07:36.teenagers with no one to look after them. Like a 12-year-old boy I met

:07:37. > :07:40.in Afghanistan with a huge scar across his face which had happened

:07:41. > :07:45.when his home was attacked. Unaccompanied children are not

:07:46. > :07:50.allowed into containment shelters and the very centre for women and

:07:51. > :07:57.children is now full. The tents and volunteer support network, there is

:07:58. > :08:01.no safeguarding plan in place. There is a massive reality gap between

:08:02. > :08:05.what he said and what is happening on the ground. Save the children

:08:06. > :08:09.warned that things are extremely chaotic and this is making an

:08:10. > :08:14.appalling situation for children even worse. This is dangerous. He

:08:15. > :08:18.knows well there is a serious risk that those children will now just

:08:19. > :08:22.disappear into the hands of traffickers or criminal gangs for

:08:23. > :08:30.prostitution. Another 400 children on top of the 10,000 that polls have

:08:31. > :08:34.said already disappeared in Europe. Some of those children have some of

:08:35. > :08:40.those closest family in the UK. Up to 150 children as an estimate. That

:08:41. > :08:44.is why they are there heading to Germany or Sweden and the government

:08:45. > :08:47.says it agrees that child refugees should be reunited with their

:08:48. > :08:52.family. It also agrees that if their closest family is in the UK, they

:08:53. > :08:56.should be able to apply here for asylum and has promised funding to

:08:57. > :08:59.help that happen, a court case conference relatives in Britain

:09:00. > :09:06.should be able to look after children while they apply. And the

:09:07. > :09:10.UNHCR has cases that sped things up. That is not happening for the kids

:09:11. > :09:13.and Calais. Even if they managed to apply their cases are taking nine

:09:14. > :09:18.months. They do not have nine months, they are remaining -- the

:09:19. > :09:22.remaining tents are being bulldozed now. With a minister make urgent

:09:23. > :09:27.representations to the French government to provide immediate and

:09:28. > :09:29.safe support for children and young people and not to remove their

:09:30. > :09:37.accommodation until there is somewhere safe that they can go.

:09:38. > :09:41.Will he accept the offer from the UNHCR to help process applications

:09:42. > :09:48.and set up a fast system to reunite children with family who are here

:09:49. > :09:51.and third, would he agree to make a commitment to help child refugees.

:09:52. > :09:56.The Minister has talked a good game on stopping trafficking and modern

:09:57. > :09:59.slavery and he is right to be appalled at the criminal gangs, but

:10:00. > :10:03.this is where it gets real. The Minister has the power now to stop

:10:04. > :10:12.the trafficking of hundreds of children on our doorstep. Will he do

:10:13. > :10:19.it was light I can say to the right honourable lady that we do take our

:10:20. > :10:23.responsibility seriously, as I have already indicated in the statement

:10:24. > :10:29.that I made to the House. In relation to the level of alternative

:10:30. > :10:32.accommodation, I equally reference the welcome centres that are

:10:33. > :10:39.available around other parts of France at over 100, and 2500 people

:10:40. > :10:42.have left those camps to go to the reception centres that are there.

:10:43. > :10:47.The important thing to stress is ensuring that we are getting asylum

:10:48. > :10:52.claims into the system in France. She rightly highlights the interest

:10:53. > :10:59.of children in and around the camps and we are obviously aware of the

:11:00. > :11:03.container situation which is adjacent to the camp, we understand

:11:04. > :11:09.that is been given to women and children and other asylum seekers,

:11:10. > :11:12.and this is in addition to other places available for women and

:11:13. > :11:19.children. I can say to her in response to the claim of making sure

:11:20. > :11:27.the arrangements under Dublin, that we do remain committed to our

:11:28. > :11:35.arrangements. The UK and France are running a UK camp which in... It

:11:36. > :11:39.gives them information on family reunification. Equally to assist

:11:40. > :11:43.with the handling of such cases, the UK and France have established a

:11:44. > :11:49.senior-level committee, on single points of contact and respected

:11:50. > :11:55.Dublin units and tears about asylum experts in the French ministration

:11:56. > :11:58.to facilitate the stages of the process in identifying, protecting,

:11:59. > :12:03.and transferring any cases to the UK. She references this period of

:12:04. > :12:08.nine months and it should not take anywhere near that. We remain behind

:12:09. > :12:11.our commitment and respect to see that there is an efficient and

:12:12. > :12:16.effective process. What we judge is a small number of cases that may

:12:17. > :12:20.have that direct connection to the UK. Equally sure will be aware of

:12:21. > :12:24.the broader family reunification procedures over and above Dublin

:12:25. > :12:29.which would allow children to be reunited with their parents, direct

:12:30. > :12:34.applications from France not only, but also anywhere around Europe or

:12:35. > :12:40.the region itself where there is that direct link to a parent that

:12:41. > :12:44.exists. To also reference the additional funds that the government

:12:45. > :12:49.has committed to the Department for international development, ?10

:12:50. > :12:52.million to support the better reunification, to assist children in

:12:53. > :12:57.Europe in transit. But we are very cautious on seeing that we do not

:12:58. > :13:01.make an already difficult situation even worse. Therefore it is with

:13:02. > :13:04.that emphasis that we give on practical support to the French

:13:05. > :13:10.government who art in the lead to relation to this, the expert support

:13:11. > :13:14.provided, but also the support we are given in Greece and other

:13:15. > :13:16.countries to see the better identification of children and to

:13:17. > :13:24.see they are held at the earliest opportunity. My honourable friend is

:13:25. > :13:27.right that the best way to protect the maximum number of vulnerable

:13:28. > :13:34.children is to minimise the number who are taken to live in squalor in

:13:35. > :13:37.camps outside of Calais in an attempt to make a dangerous and

:13:38. > :13:43.illegal crossing into this country. The way to do that is to maintain a

:13:44. > :13:46.very close cooperation with the French authorities and to do what we

:13:47. > :13:50.can to strengthen the Dublin convention, would he agree with me

:13:51. > :13:55.that the worst thing this country can do is to do anything that will

:13:56. > :13:59.disrupt our close relation to the French authorities on this matter? I

:14:00. > :14:03.would agree with my right honourable friend. We have established I think

:14:04. > :14:08.a good and close working relationship between the UK and

:14:09. > :14:10.French governments between the home secretary and others. There are

:14:11. > :14:15.regular meetings that take place at that level but also an operational

:14:16. > :14:17.level as well, highlighting the exchange of experts I have

:14:18. > :14:21.referenced. My right honourable friend is right, it is that support

:14:22. > :14:29.that we will continue and need to maintain in the months and years

:14:30. > :14:32.ahead. Can I think the right honourable member for raising this

:14:33. > :14:37.issue. We on this site have repeatedly been raising the plight

:14:38. > :14:40.of the 26,000 or so unaccompanied children in Europe who are in

:14:41. > :14:43.desperate need of protection. I have listened to what the Minister said

:14:44. > :14:48.this afternoon and what the Minister said before but there is, as

:14:49. > :14:56.mentioned before, a reality gap here. I have been to the camps and

:14:57. > :15:01.Calais and in Dunkirk and the squalor is hard to describe for

:15:02. > :15:05.members of this house. It is worse in Dunkirk minute is in Calais.

:15:06. > :15:10.There are 300 or so unaccompanied children in Calais, they are not

:15:11. > :15:15.there through choice. In Dunkirk, the conditions are such that the

:15:16. > :15:18.volunteers and eight of them are in Dunkirk, they are desperately trying

:15:19. > :15:22.to keep people safe with somewhere to sleep that they cannot count the

:15:23. > :15:30.number of unaccompanied children. There is no process on the ground

:15:31. > :15:34.for these children. There is no... The reunification rules are not

:15:35. > :15:39.working. That is the reality on the ground and we have to start from

:15:40. > :15:43.that position. That is all borne out by the judgement of the upper

:15:44. > :15:47.tribunal in January of this year. And the situation is now urgent

:15:48. > :15:51.because of the action being taken today. I do urge the Minister to

:15:52. > :15:56.look again at the issue and consider what practical support can be given

:15:57. > :16:03.in the next 24 hours to these desperate children who have not had

:16:04. > :16:09.the support they need until now. I can't say that the joint declaration

:16:10. > :16:17.that was signed -- can say. That actually does have a direct

:16:18. > :16:20.financial support in the way that the governments are providing

:16:21. > :16:25.centres outside of the immediacy of Calais. As I have already

:16:26. > :16:30.highlighted, the centre that exists, the work that we are doing on a

:16:31. > :16:34.regular basis to identify and highlight the appropriate support

:16:35. > :16:41.that is there, and I stress again, there is no need for people to be in

:16:42. > :16:45.those conditions. There are services, facilities and services

:16:46. > :16:50.away from the camps that are available to support them. I do make

:16:51. > :16:56.and stress that point yet again. We do take our responsibility seriously

:16:57. > :16:59.which is why, the honourable Lady keeps interjecting from the front

:17:00. > :17:02.bench. We are working closely with the French government to see that

:17:03. > :17:05.there are experts in place, I have already indicated additional persons

:17:06. > :17:14.going out next week to see that there are those procedures in place

:17:15. > :17:18.so we can see an efficient and effective process for a small number

:17:19. > :17:26.of cases. But there are support and accommodation available and I would

:17:27. > :17:31.urge people to take those choices. I am glad the government puts a high

:17:32. > :17:34.priority on reuniting children with their parents or close relatives,

:17:35. > :17:42.that is the best answer. But isn't it also the case that the European

:17:43. > :17:46.Council conclusions last meeting is to stop this from happening in

:17:47. > :17:51.future by DU reinforcing its border controls when they first enter the

:17:52. > :17:54.European Union a whole and safeguarding support for those who

:17:55. > :17:59.need it. When they first entered the EU, rather than putting them through

:18:00. > :18:03.the long journey across the whole of the territory. I would say to my

:18:04. > :18:06.right honourable friend, it is also in ensuring there is support in and

:18:07. > :18:11.around the region to prevent people from actually going out and is

:18:12. > :18:14.children's lives being put at risk which is why the risk, code the

:18:15. > :18:19.London conference provided additional education to ensure there

:18:20. > :18:24.is that sense of positive hope and that is absolutely the right thing

:18:25. > :18:28.to do. That is backed up by our ?2.3 billion commitment to assistance

:18:29. > :18:31.around the region and he is right about ensuring the hotspots

:18:32. > :18:34.initiative is in place to see that help and support is given at the

:18:35. > :18:41.first opportunity and that is what this government is committed to do.

:18:42. > :18:44.Does in the Minister understand that these Dublin procedures for

:18:45. > :18:49.unaccompanied children are not fit for her best and it takes up to a

:18:50. > :18:54.year for charger quest to be issued. In that light shouldn't we be

:18:55. > :19:00.walking the recent Tribunal decision to short cut the commission of three

:19:01. > :19:04.children from the Calais camps to join families here. And at the lady

:19:05. > :19:08.suggests, we should be looking to welcome the other hundred or so

:19:09. > :19:12.Calais children identified by people as having family in the UK so they

:19:13. > :19:19.can also be reunited with loved ones. Just how much money has been

:19:20. > :19:22.spent on this litigation, trying to stop refugee children and Calais

:19:23. > :19:29.reaching their families here. Wouldn't that money be far better

:19:30. > :19:34.spent ensuring the doubly Dante Dublin three... -- Dublin three

:19:35. > :19:37.programme is insured? The most appropriate thing to do is to see

:19:38. > :19:42.those young children receive the help and support at the earliest

:19:43. > :19:46.possible opportunity. Which is why I emphasise again the need to seek

:19:47. > :19:50.asylum claims are made quickly and speedily within the system. The

:19:51. > :19:55.Dublin three arrangements can operate effectively and senior

:19:56. > :19:58.representations say they see no reason why those programmes cannot

:19:59. > :20:02.be completed within a period of two months. There are clear processes

:20:03. > :20:05.and procedures that should be adopted and we urge everyone to

:20:06. > :20:12.support and get behind them and make them work effectively. As members

:20:13. > :20:16.have said, the conditions in those camps are awful and action needs to

:20:17. > :20:23.be taken so long as it is not done by the French government. When I

:20:24. > :20:27.talked to migrants there, they were wary of the French government and

:20:28. > :20:31.officials. I welcome the governments working with the French, but can the

:20:32. > :20:35.honourable friend talk about the outreach we are doing to encourage

:20:36. > :20:39.people to apply for asylum through the French system so they can't come

:20:40. > :20:43.here and have a right to do so? I would say to my honourable friend

:20:44. > :20:49.that the number of claims that have been made for asylum in the area

:20:50. > :20:52.around Calais is around 2800 over the recent year or so and there has

:20:53. > :20:55.been a significant increase which we support and encourage. I can equally

:20:56. > :20:58.say to her that we have people that go into the camps to deliver and

:20:59. > :21:05.make those very clear and need to make those claims quickly so

:21:06. > :21:10.assistance can be provided. On our visit last week, the home affairs

:21:11. > :21:16.select committee was told that 90% of migrants, 90% to enter the

:21:17. > :21:20.European Union had done so because they were unable to do so because of

:21:21. > :21:24.criminal gangs. Would he tell the House how many people have been

:21:25. > :21:31.prosecuted by individual countries as a result of that smuggling? The

:21:32. > :21:36.long-term solution of course is the proper operation of the hotspots

:21:37. > :21:42.that have been created in Italy and Greece and the tracking of children

:21:43. > :21:45.before they have to make, as the honourable member said, that long

:21:46. > :21:52.journey to Calais. But the short-term solution is for him to

:21:53. > :21:55.look at the opposite number in France and see if a more

:21:56. > :21:59.humanitarian approach can be arrived at. This is the fault of the French

:22:00. > :22:04.government, they have been warned about Calais and they have done

:22:05. > :22:10.nothing about it. Mac I think that is... I think that is a unfair

:22:11. > :22:15.assessment. Different government have taken steps to ensure there is

:22:16. > :22:19.information and people have been able to make asylum claims

:22:20. > :22:23.effectively. The gentleman makes a powerful important point though in

:22:24. > :22:27.relation to organised crime. The number he highlighted around 90% is

:22:28. > :22:31.one the European poll have made clear and therefore the work that we

:22:32. > :22:36.are doing with organised immigration crime task force is absolutely

:22:37. > :22:39.right, getting the intelligence into us and taking action against the

:22:40. > :22:47.gangs that could not care whether these young people live or die. I

:22:48. > :22:50.have a great deal of time from the United Nations committee for

:22:51. > :23:00.refugees, could I ask my honourable friend if he can outline what the

:23:01. > :23:04.UNHCR's role is in Calais? What I would say to my honourable friend is

:23:05. > :23:07.that we are working with the UNHCR in relation to the resettlement

:23:08. > :23:12.programme and in particular, the work in region to potentially see

:23:13. > :23:18.how unaccompanied children could come to this country. UNHCR is

:23:19. > :23:21.obviously monitoring the situation in and around France, but as far as

:23:22. > :23:28.I am aware they have no formal agreement. The Minister is aware

:23:29. > :23:31.that for 12 years we have had juxtaposed immigration controls in

:23:32. > :23:38.the north of France. How does he believe that one official will be

:23:39. > :23:43.able quickly to determine those 50 children identified by respectable

:23:44. > :23:49.charities as having family in the UK to determine their asylum claims to

:23:50. > :23:53.be refugees here in refuge, code written quickly. One person cannot

:23:54. > :23:57.do that job? The honourable John lady should be aware that it is not

:23:58. > :24:00.one person but a senior level connection between officials in both

:24:01. > :24:05.governments. So there are broader teams that are working on those

:24:06. > :24:06.exchanges and if there is information, there is that claim

:24:07. > :24:20.that is made that highlights that Is as well groomed the considerable

:24:21. > :24:24.efforts the government have made to keep families together." Places

:24:25. > :24:29.where many of the rapid is come from. If there were 300 minors

:24:30. > :24:34.living in a cab, Andover, they would be taken into care and given a place

:24:35. > :24:37.of safety. And there will be an investigation into the out of for

:24:38. > :24:45.getting them there. Why is that not happening in France? I cannot

:24:46. > :25:27.comment on the operations of the French government. What I can say,

:25:28. > :25:32.The minister is describing the process of colluding with the French

:25:33. > :25:37.government and a process that will push them into the hands of people

:25:38. > :25:40.traffickers. Is he really saying that he applies such a different

:25:41. > :25:48.standard to the children of refugees as we do to our own.

:25:49. > :25:54.The joint work that our enforcement agencies are engaged in, and

:25:55. > :25:58.confronting new people chapters done after the games, finger is that

:25:59. > :26:02.exploitation. It is precisely part of the joint agreements, which was

:26:03. > :26:05.signed last August. We are supporting the French government to

:26:06. > :26:11.identify the vulnerable and to see they are given support. And that is

:26:12. > :26:16.what continue to do. That we will continue. Will he give a categorical

:26:17. > :26:19.assurance that those children and young people, web legitimate claim

:26:20. > :26:23.to be in the UK because of family relatives, will not be disadvantaged

:26:24. > :26:31.by starting their asylum claims in France? And can he, make clear that

:26:32. > :26:34.currently any involvement formal process for the new UNHCR to be

:26:35. > :26:42.involved, will he considered that for the teacher? -- consider that

:26:43. > :26:46.for the future. I can say if there are children who qualify under the

:26:47. > :26:51.double regulations, and have close family here. We will stand by their

:26:52. > :26:56.obligation. -- Dublin regulation. We will see those are processed, and

:26:57. > :26:59.see that those are processed efficiently and effectively, which

:27:00. > :27:04.is why we are taking the action that we are with the French government.

:27:05. > :27:08.She highlights the issue. There is a clear process that we have. We are

:27:09. > :27:12.working to see that that does operate. As I've already indicated,

:27:13. > :27:16.we believe it can be made to operate efficiently and effectively and will

:27:17. > :27:22.work with the government and French government to achieve that. I'm a 7%

:27:23. > :27:24.debate, because the insistence of the applying that it is the

:27:25. > :27:30.responsible the of children to declare themselves to the relevant

:27:31. > :27:35.authorities. -- I must of missed her. That cannot be correct. It is

:27:36. > :27:42.our facility, here, to make sure that children are cared for. Can't

:27:43. > :27:46.we be specific? -- can we be. The UNHCR have offered to settle for a

:27:47. > :27:50.steadfast process. The Minister has applied, but I said he has said no

:27:51. > :27:58.to them. Will he say yes or no to them quiz back --? They operate in

:27:59. > :28:01.the ditch and student identify the company children helped him to

:28:02. > :28:05.register with the authorities. So that they can be properly looked

:28:06. > :28:11.after. That is the right approach and what the French government are

:28:12. > :28:15.seeking to do. There is a process between the French government, the

:28:16. > :28:18.asylum system, that is the way it assistance can be given. I would

:28:19. > :28:21.strongly urge everybody to get behind that process, deceived that

:28:22. > :28:28.children in need receive the care that they require. -- to see that

:28:29. > :28:32.children. Many of the company children wander across Europe

:28:33. > :28:36.without any means of support is the biggest stage on the way the

:28:37. > :28:39.European Union is operating as Porter and asylum policy. Can the

:28:40. > :28:44.Minister confirmed there will be many thousands more children in such

:28:45. > :28:49.apply, where not for the fact that this government is providing such a

:28:50. > :28:52.huge amount of aid into Syria, and neighbouring countries so that other

:28:53. > :29:00.children do not make this perilous journey? I support what he has said

:29:01. > :29:03.in relation to the impact that aid assistance is given to the regions

:29:04. > :29:08.and saying that there is that sense of support and hope and opportunity,

:29:09. > :29:11.but young people to get the education that they need are well

:29:12. > :29:17.looked after. Equally, we'll continue to work with other European

:29:18. > :29:21.partners, around the edge of points into the EU, so people who have made

:29:22. > :29:24.the journey is, the see that the process and where judges with claims

:29:25. > :29:32.of settlement to see that they are reunited with their parents. Cannot

:29:33. > :29:36.say to the Minister, that's cannot, that this response is just not good

:29:37. > :29:43.enough. The real danger for those children, is now a mud during the

:29:44. > :29:51.demolition and dispersal of the current camps in Calais. Where they

:29:52. > :29:54.are at real risk of being picked up by the gangs, responsible for child

:29:55. > :30:02.sexual exploitation and people trafficking. Can he get on with

:30:03. > :30:07.putting in place a proper, and coherent registration system so that

:30:08. > :30:14.those children can be picked up by the relevant authorities and looked

:30:15. > :30:17.after as they should be? In terms of a which the work of been taken

:30:18. > :30:23.place, my understanding is that the way the French government are part

:30:24. > :30:26.of this is on a phased basis, that places like schools will not be

:30:27. > :30:30.subject to the clearance of the consequence of the court wrote. That

:30:31. > :30:34.the different authorities are focused on the areas what I'm

:30:35. > :30:41.occupied. To move to the new accommodations. I think they're

:30:42. > :30:44.taking that approach. In respect to children in need of support, I

:30:45. > :30:48.underlined the need to assure the claims are made, and that that I'm

:30:49. > :31:02.going to help identify children in need of help. The Minister or member

:31:03. > :31:07.of the mayor of Calais -- will remember, that the majority of those

:31:08. > :31:10.in the camp haven't formed any to claim asylum in France, but they do

:31:11. > :31:16.not want to because they want to come to the UK. When he agreed that

:31:17. > :31:20.it is incumbent on French government and the Calais authority to ensure

:31:21. > :31:24.that children who cannot make asylum applications on their own, are

:31:25. > :31:32.assisted in doing so that adults are informed that they must claim asylum

:31:33. > :31:38.in France, which is a safe country? I will agree. I underlined that

:31:39. > :31:41.there have French injuries in the region, and the cab operating to

:31:42. > :31:49.identify the company children and said the claims can be made. --

:31:50. > :31:53.unaccompanied. The Minister has said that unaccompanied children with

:31:54. > :31:56.family connections, the process should take two months. How long

:31:57. > :32:01.that the UK Government say the asylum process should take, for

:32:02. > :32:03.those children with family connections in the UK, and what

:32:04. > :32:12.radical step if the Minister going to take to sure is achieved? And

:32:13. > :32:17.respect to the asylum process in this country, but with the claims

:32:18. > :32:20.are held, we have done a great deal to see that claims are properly

:32:21. > :32:24.assessed as straightforward claims are that within a period of six

:32:25. > :32:28.months. I think the government has done a deal of hard work to see that

:32:29. > :32:30.effectiveness is brought into the system and that has been recognised

:32:31. > :32:40.by recent independent inspectors report. The Minister agreed that our

:32:41. > :32:43.efforts should be convertible to seek assistance in France for the

:32:44. > :32:46.authorities, and not delude themselves living in squalor

:32:47. > :32:50.vulnerable to the gangs that the addition we need to make sure we

:32:51. > :32:53.have strong security at our borders so that people realise it is not

:32:54. > :33:02.worth their life in the hands of the people traffickers? He will know

:33:03. > :33:07.that the work government has done to secure it the port area around

:33:08. > :33:12.Calais in the Giro Tunnel terminal. We keep that security under review

:33:13. > :33:16.with a drug group difference government. He makes a powerful

:33:17. > :33:19.point, that some claims should be made at the earliest opportunity, so

:33:20. > :33:25.the help and assistance can be given at the earliest opportunity. And our

:33:26. > :33:33.poor that afternoon, that and water cannons are being used by riot

:33:34. > :33:41.police... -- in a report this afternoon. Given that there are

:33:42. > :33:45.plenty of money to provide fencing and bilateral cooperation, why can't

:33:46. > :33:48.he simply get it signed counterpart to identify the people who have a

:33:49. > :33:56.legal right to come to the UK and get them over here immediately? I

:33:57. > :34:01.say to him that it is a clear question of people can't claim

:34:02. > :34:03.asylum. Young people being supported with the work of the NGOs of the

:34:04. > :34:08.French government had been a place for that. The consistent adjoint

:34:09. > :34:12.approach that we have taken, built on the agreement from last August,

:34:13. > :34:18.to support the French government and their word. And insane help getting.

:34:19. > :34:24.That's insane those in need of help get it. Concern for vulnerable

:34:25. > :34:28.children in the camps. Have you identified, if they have relatives

:34:29. > :34:31.in the UK, could the Minister tell the House committee those relatives

:34:32. > :34:34.that the UK Government is prevented from travelling to travelling to

:34:35. > :34:37.France to be reunited with us children and why did I think

:34:38. > :34:45.refugees rather be in the UK that France? That's why does he think.

:34:46. > :34:49.Often these issues are complex. In terms of what is in the best

:34:50. > :34:53.interest of the child, that is always the factor at the forefront

:34:54. > :34:59.of our minds. When we are seeing those applications, we always have

:35:00. > :35:03.to assess what is in their best interests and whether the parents or

:35:04. > :35:08.other close family members are able to support that child. It is that

:35:09. > :35:14.focus that we get to every case. That would give to. A week ago

:35:15. > :35:18.today, I asked the Prime Minister for assurance that the United

:35:19. > :35:22.Kingdom government response to the crisis will be driven entirely by

:35:23. > :35:27.humanitarian aid and not insult in any way by considerations as to how

:35:28. > :35:31.they might impact on the referendum. That is not likely to happen in

:35:32. > :35:37.June. The premise there was unable or unwilling to give assurance last

:35:38. > :35:43.week. Minister give that assurance. Test the Prime Minister was unable.

:35:44. > :35:46.I think the gentleman can say by the actions of a government that would

:35:47. > :35:51.take our facilities very seriously, with the funding that we have

:35:52. > :35:59.committed, not just in it or Regents to read, but also in Europe as well

:36:00. > :36:01.with the addition to Megan found. -- additional ten Megan found. The city

:36:02. > :36:09.that children need help or support can get that. -- ?10 million.

:36:10. > :36:14.Have the Minister had any discussions with his French

:36:15. > :36:19.counterpart to find out the bridge is wide the migrants and Kelly did

:36:20. > :36:26.not claim asylum in the other state countries that have had travelled to

:36:27. > :36:31.before arriving in France? The originals are complex. The chairman

:36:32. > :36:34.of the select committee highlighted the roles of people traffickers and

:36:35. > :36:37.smugglers and those who self also do a host of different means and

:36:38. > :36:46.networks including through social media. You can be in relation to

:36:47. > :36:49.communities, and language. It is a clear message that we give to the

:36:50. > :36:52.activities that we are supporting the French government and that we

:36:53. > :37:01.are taking ourselves in those camps to say that people should claim

:37:02. > :37:06.asylum in France. I say to the Minister, with little evidence of UK

:37:07. > :37:10.expertise on the ground in any of these cams, he is wrong to say it

:37:11. > :37:14.that a Christian place of worship is wiped out by the French authorities

:37:15. > :37:18.just a few weeks ago. He is wrong about that. Can I also say, what

:37:19. > :37:27.advice does he get to the likes of the social action network, citizens

:37:28. > :37:31.UK, organised nations elected members and in about a charge of

:37:32. > :37:35.individuals with a right to remain in the UK have a close family

:37:36. > :37:39.connection, what advice has he given on the dispatch box about how they

:37:40. > :37:45.can carry on with help? -- given from the dispatch. I stated anybody

:37:46. > :37:50.to claim asylum in France so sure there is that direct connection. So

:37:51. > :37:56.that we can make the system work. I stressed that it has been given does

:37:57. > :38:02.not have that situation. In respect to the issue the first of the camps,

:38:03. > :38:04.I understand that the court rules specifically that they should go

:38:05. > :38:08.ahead in the camps would the excesses of place if were substance

:38:09. > :38:10.cool that it is that approach that difference government should be

:38:11. > :38:17.adopting and the action that they are taking. Prior to coming to this

:38:18. > :38:24.house, I worked on hundreds of asylum in trafficking cases. An

:38:25. > :38:26.appraisal of the double rape guessing, the first country of

:38:27. > :38:36.anticipate response for the claimant, importing fairness and

:38:37. > :38:41.equity to the system. -- -- -- --. Clement to describe the legal bases

:38:42. > :38:46.will be undemocratic and illegitimate? I agree on the

:38:47. > :38:50.benefits and the strength of the Dublin arrangements. It is something

:38:51. > :38:55.that we believe should be upheld and not undermined. It does have that

:38:56. > :38:58.core principles on those that have made a claim of doing so in the

:38:59. > :39:04.first safe country that they arrive. Equally, that principle under Dublin

:39:05. > :39:10.three, that is coming reunification, that they equally operates and that

:39:11. > :39:12.is what this government stands by. That family reunification. I

:39:13. > :39:16.recently met with constituents who have been to the cab of the

:39:17. > :39:23.situation that is described for children was appalling. The

:39:24. > :39:31.situation or, at the grandchildren missing out on food. I agree to a

:39:32. > :39:33.bed in the camp should be claim asylum, but this is not happening

:39:34. > :39:37.over a long period of time. What more can be do to reach out and get

:39:38. > :39:41.that information to them? And make sure that humanitarian assistance

:39:42. > :39:46.resist those camps and the most vulnerable. I know learn the

:39:47. > :39:49.specifics facilities that are there, the 400 places for women and

:39:50. > :39:56.children. That's underlined the specific. The support that we are

:39:57. > :40:01.giving with 100 to send it away from the area for people to be able to go

:40:02. > :40:05.to. That's wider than two. To ensure that there are able to make the case

:40:06. > :40:08.of there. There is a specific element around vulnerable guilty

:40:09. > :40:12.which we are supporting the French government. And equally far on the

:40:13. > :40:15.opposite, going into the cans to reiterate that message, the help and

:40:16. > :40:18.support can be given. The way to do that if the claim asylum in that way

:40:19. > :40:28.we can see that assistance is given as early as possible. Urgent

:40:29. > :40:34.question. I asked the Minister if he will make a statement about the

:40:35. > :40:37.instructions issued by the Cabinet Secretariat to permanent secretaries

:40:38. > :40:46.in respect of referendum guidance with the civil service as special

:40:47. > :40:51.about this. -- cabinet secretary. The referendum on the 23rd of June

:40:52. > :40:55.on the EU represents the biggest constitutional decision for the

:40:56. > :40:59.nation and a generation. And the government position is clear,

:41:00. > :41:03.Britain will be stronger, safer, and better off by remaining in a

:41:04. > :41:08.reformed European Union. Today's government document setting up the

:41:09. > :41:14.process of leading, underlines that case. Shown that able to lead could

:41:15. > :41:19.lead to up to a decade of war of damaging uncertainty, with real

:41:20. > :41:23.consequences for putting jobs, and investments at risk. I concur with

:41:24. > :41:28.that assessment. Because of the significant of the referendum, as

:41:29. > :41:33.the house knows, the Prime Minister took the decision to allow

:41:34. > :41:35.collective responsibility to be suspended on the referendum

:41:36. > :41:42.question. This approach was discussed and agreed by cabinet on

:41:43. > :41:47.the 20th of February. The process is clear. Ministers made apart from the

:41:48. > :41:50.government position in a personal capacity on the specific question on

:41:51. > :41:57.the referendum. -- ministers may depart. On other matters, government

:41:58. > :42:01.operates as normal, and often, civil servants support the government

:42:02. > :42:05.position. Guidance on how this will work in practice was set out and

:42:06. > :42:09.published by the Cabinet Secretariat last week. The guidance is clear.

:42:10. > :42:14.Other than on the specific question of the referendum, all ministers can

:42:15. > :42:18.commission and see all documents as normal. On the question of the

:42:19. > :42:22.referendum, and on this question alone, ministers who disagree with

:42:23. > :42:27.the government position naturally cannot commission policy work on the

:42:28. > :42:33.in and out question, or see documents setting out details of the

:42:34. > :42:39.case to remain. All ministers can ask for factual briefings, and for

:42:40. > :42:43.packs to be checked in any matter. All ministers can see documents on

:42:44. > :42:47.EU issues not related to the referendum question. So the guidance

:42:48. > :42:52.is clear, it is published, and the process was agreed at cabin at the

:42:53. > :42:56.best way to manage the unusual situation a ministers who disagree

:42:57. > :43:02.with the government, remaining impulse. I hope this clarity will

:43:03. > :43:07.allow members on all sides not to focus on the main debate, on whether

:43:08. > :43:10.Britain will be better served in leaving or staying in a reformed

:43:11. > :43:20.European Union and then let the people decide. Clarity on this issue

:43:21. > :43:25.is one thing that we do not have. The body adjust to the government

:43:26. > :43:28.making his case in this referendum. -- nobody is. Placebos but the civil

:43:29. > :43:33.service to be impartial and caring out in support for ministers. It is

:43:34. > :43:39.established in law, that ministers are terrible for the departments,

:43:40. > :43:42.and voters expect government expects figures to be impartial and

:43:43. > :43:48.accurate, whether they are used by ministers who support remain, or

:43:49. > :43:53.leave. By Dusty cabinet secretary's let her go far beyond the limits

:43:54. > :43:59.actually placed on the assessment ministers during the 1970 bribe

:44:00. > :44:03.referendum? Bid and industry secretary -- the van, was quoted as

:44:04. > :44:08.saying, it was difficult putting forward anti-, and briefs to Mr

:44:09. > :44:17.Shaw. But I hope we did what he asked. What a different atmosphere

:44:18. > :44:22.from today. Worsen this, there has been a Q and a briefing circulated,

:44:23. > :44:28.following the letter which states that ministers may not see any

:44:29. > :44:33.papers, and that has a bearing on the referendum question. Or are

:44:34. > :44:41.intended to be accused in support of their position of the referendum.

:44:42. > :44:47.This is being described as one minister as unconstitutional. How

:44:48. > :44:52.can such a wide be justified? How does my friend reconcile this with

:44:53. > :44:56.his comment on radio this morning, saying the government is functioning

:44:57. > :45:02.on all question other than the in and out question, in an entirely

:45:03. > :45:07.normal way. And he said there is no other rules other than those set out

:45:08. > :45:11.last Monday in the letter from Jeremy. What about the Q and a? Does

:45:12. > :45:18.the Minister denied that permanent secretaries have been instructed to

:45:19. > :45:24.conceal information requested by Downing Street from a dissenting

:45:25. > :45:28.minister? The secretary's letter states, and a call, departments may

:45:29. > :45:35.check facts. Civil servants have also been told they cannot provide

:45:36. > :45:41.arguments or new fax. How is this consistent with the civil civil

:45:42. > :45:48.service code duty of honesty, which required a civil servant to set out

:45:49. > :45:52.the facts and relevant issues to the league? That the Minister agree that

:45:53. > :45:59.any guidance or instruction complex, the code must prevail. How does the

:46:00. > :46:03.situation best serve the democratic process, and ministers on opposing

:46:04. > :46:07.sides of the debate finish up, disagreeing about information for

:46:08. > :46:11.the same government department which is meant to be impartial and

:46:12. > :46:18.accurate information, provided by professional civil servants.

:46:19. > :46:27.I'll will answer the points and turned. The first answer is on the

:46:28. > :46:30.function of government. Of course a government is functioning well. I

:46:31. > :46:33.come to the house from a meeting is functioning well. I come to the

:46:34. > :46:37.house, and meetings but the Honorable member for wisdom, about

:46:38. > :46:41.childcare policy, which was carried out entirely the normal way. And

:46:42. > :46:44.Friday, I was visiting a prison with the Justice Secretary and I think

:46:45. > :46:51.those two points demonstrate that things are functioning as normal. On

:46:52. > :46:57.the civil service code, the civil service code on and indeed in law

:46:58. > :47:01.and the constitutional ferret act of 2010, makes it clear that it is the

:47:02. > :47:06.duty of civil servants to support the position of the government of

:47:07. > :47:11.the day. It's only because the Prime Minister is allowing ministers to

:47:12. > :47:16.remain in government, while disagreeing with a single policy,

:47:17. > :47:23.which is the in out position, that this situation arises at all. In the

:47:24. > :47:30.letter from the Cabinet secretary made clear. Factual briefing is

:47:31. > :47:36.allowed. I like to come to the point about the 1975 guidance, because

:47:37. > :47:43.that 9075 guidance is to make clear that no briefing, or draft speeches,

:47:44. > :47:46.can't carry to the government consideration, were allowed to be

:47:47. > :47:50.drafted by civil servants. That's contrary to. It went further because

:47:51. > :47:54.it said if you wanted to oppose the government position, you had to

:47:55. > :47:59.inform number ten of any invitations to appear on radio or television and

:48:00. > :48:03.we have not put that in place. On all of these things, the clarity

:48:04. > :48:10.around publishing the guidance, that comes from the Cabinet Secretariat,

:48:11. > :48:16.which was published on Monday of last week, shows the rules they are

:48:17. > :48:22.consistent with the cold, and indeed the law. -- cabinet secretary. I

:48:23. > :48:30.fear the Minister is having a Jim hacker moment. And 140 days' time,

:48:31. > :48:34.the education and imported the system. The referendum will dictate

:48:35. > :48:40.how in the future of the UK handles export and import. The world of

:48:41. > :48:46.work, human rights, intelligence sharing, the fight against crime and

:48:47. > :48:49.how we adapt, change. Here we are, all today, discussing the guidelines

:48:50. > :48:58.to civil servants and special advisers. Sadly, I am not in the

:48:59. > :49:03.strongest oppositions to lecture the port minister on handling space in

:49:04. > :49:07.his own party. In the way the opposition front bridges are duty

:49:08. > :49:13.bound to do so, I would like to give him some advice. -- front benches.

:49:14. > :49:16.The Justice Secretary, had a history of letting the devices off the

:49:17. > :49:25.Leeds. Does the Minister have really think, that a is going to change

:49:26. > :49:29.that situation? When we have a Prime Minister alone his own spin doctors

:49:30. > :49:35.debrief that the Justice Secretary will be sacked, after the

:49:36. > :49:37.referendum, or that his friend the Mayor of London Asberry see

:49:38. > :49:40.old-school cold that the prominence or it's of the prominence there is

:49:41. > :49:44.hurt and upset, I can see how the Minister would have been overcome

:49:45. > :49:49.with the wave of injury at the prospect of answering an urgent

:49:50. > :49:56.question from the chair committee. About the conduct of special about

:49:57. > :50:01.this. Yet, answer for the conduct he must. A lot to ask him, how many

:50:02. > :50:08.special advisers have an unbiased Number ten other intentions to work

:50:09. > :50:12.on the no campaign? In the event of ministerial benches, where minister

:50:13. > :50:16.and the advisor go on a campaign for after the event, will the cost of

:50:17. > :50:20.travel be carried out by the Minister and how does be monitored

:50:21. > :50:23.and made public? The guidelines state that special advisers are not

:50:24. > :50:32.allowed to campaign for a no vote in office hours. For the avoidance of

:50:33. > :50:36.doubt, please defined office hours. When the inevitable happens, when

:50:37. > :50:39.the special advisor to the ministers who are defying their leaders

:50:40. > :50:45.completely ignored the memo random and the Cabinet secretary, on a

:50:46. > :50:50.scale of 1-10, how competent is he that the Prime Minister will and

:50:51. > :50:54.force to:? Does the Minister have confidence to admit that these

:50:55. > :50:58.attempts to dilute the freedom of rebellious ministers would only

:50:59. > :51:09.detract from the key issues that matter to voters and the referendum?

:51:10. > :51:15.It seems to me that the out campaign are attacking the referee, not the

:51:16. > :51:20.captain of the opposing side. Get the Prime Minister does have a

:51:21. > :51:25.simple choice. It he gets his ministers free reign to run the

:51:26. > :51:33.department, or he sacks them. It cannot be fudged for the next 140

:51:34. > :51:38.days. Unfortunately, I had to scrap most of my proposed reply to the

:51:39. > :51:43.members. Given his gracious acknowledgment that he was not best

:51:44. > :51:46.placed to throw rocks on this particular subject. I will agree

:51:47. > :51:52.with him on this, which is that questions over this are a

:51:53. > :51:54.distraction to the management. And the main substance, which is the

:51:55. > :52:01.question of whether Britain is better off inside or outside a

:52:02. > :52:05.reformed European Union. I strongly believe that thanks to the deal that

:52:06. > :52:09.the Prime Minister achieved, we are better off and more secure inside a

:52:10. > :52:15.reformed European Union. On some of the specific questions, first about

:52:16. > :52:18.the efficacy of the guidance, the guidance is for civil service to

:52:19. > :52:23.follow. And civil servants to follow guidance of that and have every

:52:24. > :52:28.confidence that they will. The question of what constitutes office

:52:29. > :52:35.hours, I will only say that office hours mean the working day. I hope

:52:36. > :52:47.that clears that up. On the broader question, of whether this is

:52:48. > :52:53.necessary, and his point that ministers need to run their

:52:54. > :52:58.departments and able to differ on this one question, that is why this

:52:59. > :53:05.guidance is specifically about the out question, not about EU business

:53:06. > :53:11.because we had apartments to run. -- we have the to run. My friend is

:53:12. > :53:16.hugely able and has shown his ability today to dance on the head

:53:17. > :53:21.of a pin. Will he take it from me, this is a huge blunder? I has earned

:53:22. > :53:29.the general public will think that this decision has been petty and has

:53:30. > :53:36.been vindictive. Moreover, they will say to our government and his party

:53:37. > :53:42.of which I am so proud to belong, if we are so much stronger in Europe,

:53:43. > :53:51.what is it that we are so careful to hide? I have a huge amount of

:53:52. > :53:56.respect for him. I would just say the reason this is required, is

:53:57. > :54:02.because of the decision of the Prime Minister to allow ministers to

:54:03. > :54:05.campaign to leave and to differ from the government position. If that

:54:06. > :54:11.were not the case, then this guidance would not be needed at all.

:54:12. > :54:14.On the point of whether the general public take away, I imagine that

:54:15. > :54:17.most people will take up way it's can't get onto the real discussion,

:54:18. > :54:26.which is about whether we should be in or out of a performed EU. -- of a

:54:27. > :54:31.performed EU. The government position is that we should vote to

:54:32. > :54:35.remain in the EU, and other regions it will be good for jobs and

:54:36. > :54:39.employment. The government's problem is that the Secretary of State and

:54:40. > :54:44.Minister responsible for jobs and employment take a contrary review.

:54:45. > :54:48.The government is not in a dilemma where it wants its own ministers,

:54:49. > :54:52.not to just avoid the government's petition, but to actively campaign

:54:53. > :54:57.against it by using their offices to do so. In response to this, the

:54:58. > :55:02.government is now putting the obligation on unelected civil

:55:03. > :55:09.servants to censor what ministers can or cannot see within the area of

:55:10. > :55:11.expertise. This situation is farcical, but also has a

:55:12. > :55:17.undercurrent of something sinister about it as well. I would say to any

:55:18. > :55:19.self respecting minister to him and they should not accept these

:55:20. > :55:25.constraints. My question to the Minister for the Cabinet Office is

:55:26. > :55:28.your party is already has tension on this question. Allenby you think it

:55:29. > :55:38.will be before you break into all-out civil war? -- how long do

:55:39. > :55:42.you think. The member makes a essential ever in the

:55:43. > :55:46.characterisation of the situation. No minister is censored, far from

:55:47. > :55:50.it. Ministers are allowed to campaign against the government

:55:51. > :55:57.position. It is for civil servants to follow the government position.

:55:58. > :56:01.After all, it is required by law that they follow and support the

:56:02. > :56:07.position of the government of the day. There is a serious

:56:08. > :56:11.constitutional issue here, which goes to the heart of House of

:56:12. > :56:14.Commons accountability. We ask managers questions, and expect

:56:15. > :56:19.answers, but that are fully informed. How can those who send us

:56:20. > :56:24.to the House of Commons have faith in the answers we did, if does we

:56:25. > :56:31.are questioning purposely have information withheld by their own

:56:32. > :56:39.civil servants? I have respect for him. That is why I have come to the

:56:40. > :56:45.specific point. That, the question that he asked, is exactly the reason

:56:46. > :56:49.for prescribing this guidance to only being about the in and out

:56:50. > :56:55.issue. Rather than the more probably. That is with the guidance

:56:56. > :57:00.says. This approach, was headed about it in a minister in J Guerra.

:57:01. > :57:06.It was then discussed and agreed at cabinet on the 20th of February. As

:57:07. > :57:08.the best way to pay for this position in which ministers could

:57:09. > :57:17.disagree with the government position. He said of the ministered

:57:18. > :57:23.to dole out. On the whole, that is enormously important honourable and

:57:24. > :57:29.right, but members, more interested in is answers that and his respect.

:57:30. > :57:35.Mr Speaker, I previously asked of the Prime Minister was going to

:57:36. > :57:39.throw his weight behind the in campaign. I'm very pleased is done

:57:40. > :57:45.so because I farce peace, prosperity, and security we need to

:57:46. > :57:48.be in. Just a relation to what we're discussing now, I ask clarity from

:57:49. > :57:53.the Minister is there a case that there is a list of ministers who are

:57:54. > :57:59.in and it was the ministers were out it is the ministers were undecided,

:58:00. > :58:08.and what happens if a minister switches from an end to out campaign

:58:09. > :58:10.or adds to in? Mr Speaker, I have respectfully honourable gentleman

:58:11. > :58:17.LAUGHTER I have respect for you. Maybe I will drop all that. On the

:58:18. > :58:26.point of the honourable gentleman raises, win cabinet met after the

:58:27. > :58:34.Prime Minister agreed the deal with the other members of the European

:58:35. > :58:38.Union, ministers at that point were asked to state that position.

:58:39. > :58:45.Whether to remain or leave. I doubt this positions changed. My cup runs

:58:46. > :58:51.over at the generosity and good grace of the Minister to where we

:58:52. > :58:56.are all indebted. The Minister called on the law, the question of

:58:57. > :59:00.voter trust in his referendum as I said to but the Prime Minister and

:59:01. > :59:08.the Foreign Secretary on the third at eight 25th of February is

:59:09. > :59:13.paramount. And Mr Speaker for the voters for this site is questioned.

:59:14. > :59:19.Knowledge is power. Does the Minister denied that under a section

:59:20. > :59:25.of the Labour and express provisions of the European Labour act which

:59:26. > :59:29.itself proposes a legal duty on the government provide referendum of

:59:30. > :59:32.information that the voter is written titled to accurate and

:59:33. > :59:38.impartial information as the Minister for Europe agreed in reply

:59:39. > :59:42.to me on the house on that bill through and from the government and

:59:43. > :59:48.all ministers of the Crown equally and that this therefore being a

:59:49. > :59:52.statutory obligation overrides any Prime ministerial prerogative such

:59:53. > :59:57.as the Cabinet secretary on this guidance of the 23rd of February.

:59:58. > :00:01.Does he therefore denied the civil service as Crown servants are

:00:02. > :00:03.legally obliged to provide information accurately and

:00:04. > :00:09.impartially to all ministers within their departments so that the voters

:00:10. > :00:16.are properly informed and are empowered to answer the question any

:00:17. > :00:24.referendum? On the legal details the act also requires for the government

:00:25. > :00:29.to express its view and the Constitutional affairs act of 2010

:00:30. > :00:35.requires civil servants to support the position of the government of

:00:36. > :00:41.the day. It is on that basis that it is right to follow the procedure

:00:42. > :00:49.that we have agreed by cabinets and such that the position of the

:00:50. > :00:55.government is set out. Ministers may disagree with it but civil servants

:00:56. > :01:05.support the government position. Here we are the day after the

:01:06. > :01:11.Oscars, LAUGHTER The family is opposite threats and counter

:01:12. > :01:17.threats. It reminds me of Godfather. This could be Godfather For will

:01:18. > :01:27.there be a horse's head in the bed or will it be another animal. Well

:01:28. > :01:32.they say that politics is show business, froggy people so I'll take

:01:33. > :01:41.that as an upgrade. -- for ugly people. I find it hard to believe

:01:42. > :01:45.the Cabinet knew the applications of what it was actually doing. The

:01:46. > :01:49.central purpose of the act is to achieve fairness in the elections

:01:50. > :01:54.and referendum. Government has parked itself on one side of the

:01:55. > :01:59.arguments. Dwarfing any influence of either of campaign groups. It also

:02:00. > :02:03.goes against the strategic objective of offering people a referendum to

:02:04. > :02:09.actually resolve this question of Britain's role in the world. One way

:02:10. > :02:15.of the other. That question will only hold if this is seen to be

:02:16. > :02:26.fair. All of this runs against that strategic objective. I will disagree

:02:27. > :02:29.with the Honorable friend. The government is required under the

:02:30. > :02:35.referendum act to take a position. It is also required, or the

:02:36. > :02:41.commitments were given during the passage of that act to set out

:02:42. > :02:48.certain things Francis the process of leaving the EU. Republished that

:02:49. > :02:52.this morning under article 50. The debate was had during the passage of

:02:53. > :02:57.that act as to how this is best done and this was the conclusion of it

:02:58. > :03:03.with her following through. The constitutional gibberish and utterly

:03:04. > :03:08.unworkable protestations that the government made would be much more

:03:09. > :03:15.impressive had they joined the select committee when we condemned

:03:16. > :03:18.the politicization of the civil service during the Scottish

:03:19. > :03:23.referendum. During discussed referendum on ministers agreed. Here

:03:24. > :03:29.we have a disagreement and we have a department where the innards can see

:03:30. > :03:34.the papers and the outers cannot. Isn't the only way to make this

:03:35. > :03:39.workable if for the ministers to resign, to leave offers, until after

:03:40. > :03:44.June the 23rd? Is precisely because we did not want that happen that we

:03:45. > :03:49.have proposed these arrangements. I would say to him on this, the point

:03:50. > :03:54.about civil servants, I think he is wholly wrong about misjudging the

:03:55. > :03:59.position if he thinks that civil servants supporting the government's

:04:00. > :04:05.position if anything other than the impartial and proper position for

:04:06. > :04:09.them to be. If the alternative view is to argue that civil servants

:04:10. > :04:16.should not support the government public position I think that would

:04:17. > :04:21.be ridiculous. On a daily basis, ministers have to make a difficult

:04:22. > :04:28.decision between European law and regulation and delivering a decision

:04:29. > :04:34.benefiting UK citizens. I have many things that I would like to discuss,

:04:35. > :04:40.I have a meeting with him this evening. Can I ask him a question on

:04:41. > :04:44.past cases where he can go back without any fear or favour and have

:04:45. > :04:47.full briefing of all the opinions, and history before and after that

:04:48. > :04:51.decision although the end result might be thoroughly disappointing to

:04:52. > :04:57.the case for remaining in the European Union. My Honorable friend

:04:58. > :05:04.makes a very important point, on EU issues that are not issues of the

:05:05. > :05:09.single question of in or out than full access of all papers as normal

:05:10. > :05:12.will happen. That is what it says in the letter from the Cabinet

:05:13. > :05:23.secretary and that is how government is a -- operating. During a

:05:24. > :05:28.referendum on Scottish independence there was significant controversy of

:05:29. > :05:33.single civil servants making politicized statements. It is vital

:05:34. > :05:39.that civil servants retained its private advisory role and they do

:05:40. > :05:42.not make blatantly political comments during the campaign for the

:05:43. > :05:50.EU referendum. Can Minister confirm this to be the case? That is the

:05:51. > :06:02.normal course of her events because the civil service often support the

:06:03. > :06:08.government position. LAUGHTER The right honourable gentleman is most

:06:09. > :06:11.dexterous, so I'm sure he can recover very quickly. I think the

:06:12. > :06:16.accurate characterisation would be that he had been standing. He did

:06:17. > :06:21.not do so because he was coming from a secondary position. He is not

:06:22. > :06:29.plenty of time to form that his question. I'm not sure it was the

:06:30. > :06:36.other David Davis you're calling or not. We are fortunate to live in a

:06:37. > :06:42.democracy, we are not guided by a cabinet secretary guidelines, as far

:06:43. > :06:46.as I'm aware there is no manifesto debases for this, there's no House

:06:47. > :06:50.of Commons vote for this, so what is the constitutional basis for the

:06:51. > :06:56.decision here. Is it all prerogative? In the EU referendum

:06:57. > :07:00.act the government is required to take a position, the government has

:07:01. > :07:07.a position as I have set out, and it is for civil servants to bizarre --

:07:08. > :07:10.support that position. How they then act with a minister who does not

:07:11. > :07:14.support the government position is necessary to set out is precisely

:07:15. > :07:23.limited to be in our question. The policy here is that every one knows

:07:24. > :07:26.that the policy is. The treasuries most senior civil servant was quoted

:07:27. > :07:33.in saying that he believed impartiality guidelines do not apply

:07:34. > :07:38.in extreme cases like that of the Scottish independent referendum, I

:07:39. > :07:43.wonder if the Minister would convert desk ossified EU referendum as

:07:44. > :07:51.extreme case and should be expect normal rules to be completely

:07:52. > :07:54.disregarded? Civil service and support the position of the day. I

:07:55. > :07:58.do not know how many times I will have to repeat that. That is the

:07:59. > :08:03.case, civil servants are impartial but they support the government of

:08:04. > :08:12.the day. That is the law and is the situation in this case as well. Does

:08:13. > :08:17.the general agree with me that it is supremely ironic that the if this

:08:18. > :08:19.referendum had an impact in our way our civil service operates in the

:08:20. > :08:22.future because it is absolutely right that it does support the

:08:23. > :08:26.government and the government has made a decision, in my view the

:08:27. > :08:31.right decision, that we're safer, stronger, and better in the European

:08:32. > :08:34.Union. It is disappointing that the league campaign was to focus on

:08:35. > :08:38.process issues rather than discussing whether or not would be

:08:39. > :08:44.better off inside a reformed European Union. The point that he

:08:45. > :08:55.raises is an important one. It is this. If you do not think that the

:08:56. > :08:58.should operate as was published last week that the only position that the

:08:59. > :09:02.civil service should support a position which is not the

:09:03. > :09:07.government's position and that goes against everything that they were

:09:08. > :09:11.set up to do. Isn't this the Prime Minister saying to his own ministers

:09:12. > :09:16.you can exercise your democratic rights as long as at the end of the

:09:17. > :09:23.date you agree with me? Is in that the latest sordid attempt to rig the

:09:24. > :09:27.referendum, to get the result of the Prime Minister wants? On the

:09:28. > :09:34.contrary it is to -- is the consequences of having ministers who

:09:35. > :09:37.are allowed to speak. To express their views freely, as many of them

:09:38. > :09:43.are doing whether they want to remain in or out. With the Minister

:09:44. > :09:47.agree with me that the misunderstanding of the government

:09:48. > :09:49.position is the last question whether the Prime Minister is

:09:50. > :09:55.requiring ministers to agree with him. He is not requiring them. Does

:09:56. > :10:00.the whole point. Will the public not see it in his way to the question of

:10:01. > :10:05.fairness is insured by the fact that ministers are to speak out. That is

:10:06. > :10:09.what the Prime Minister is allowing, that is in fact a generous position,

:10:10. > :10:13.there is no reason why they should be supported by a civil service or

:10:14. > :10:19.the taxpayer and expressing their view to which they are entitled in

:10:20. > :10:23.conscious, and they did feel is unfair that without the option of

:10:24. > :10:33.not remaining in the government. Yes. The Lord Chancellor has an

:10:34. > :10:35.important constitutional job, but he cannot do it under these

:10:36. > :10:42.restrictions. On the weekend we heard that certain things we

:10:43. > :10:46.postponed again for six months. At the Chancellor wants his loyal civil

:10:47. > :10:51.servants to put together a well-crafted documents on things

:10:52. > :10:59.shouldn't they be allowed to do that, otherwise they're getting a

:11:00. > :11:03.second class government. Of course the Lord is can continue to do the

:11:04. > :11:08.work he is doing I was with them visiting and prison on Friday. It

:11:09. > :11:13.shows the government is getting on with its work and having on top of

:11:14. > :11:16.that, a debate. There the debate in the country and ministers on both

:11:17. > :11:24.sides about the specific question of in and out referendum. When the

:11:25. > :11:30.people and I Kazin raised the issue of a referendum over the last week

:11:31. > :11:34.the thing they wanted was fax. They have lots of statistics but their

:11:35. > :11:39.fear that their warped from one side of the other. The one fax. Can my

:11:40. > :11:42.honourable friend advised me that his rejection of access to

:11:43. > :11:51.information that will enable them to have fax was Mac it will not have

:11:52. > :12:04.any indication. Fact checking is allowed to be proposed and done by

:12:05. > :12:14.civil servants. There were also two players in Scotland. Is that not

:12:15. > :12:17.naive... I don't understand the premise of the question because

:12:18. > :12:26.you're putting forward the positive case for Romania. Could the Mr set

:12:27. > :12:36.out will be the harm in allowing full transparency with people

:12:37. > :12:40.feeling of being unfair process? The challenge of taking a position other

:12:41. > :12:46.than the one of the government has taken is that it would require civil

:12:47. > :12:51.servants to do work that was not in support of the position of the

:12:52. > :12:57.government. The government has a position and it is part of the civil

:12:58. > :13:00.service code, it is put into law in the 2010 constitutional affairs act

:13:01. > :13:04.that civil servants should support the position of the government. It

:13:05. > :13:09.would put them in a very difficult position if we were to do anything

:13:10. > :13:13.other than that. I will be campaigning for the rich and to

:13:14. > :13:19.remain in the European Union, having said that I see really no issue with

:13:20. > :13:22.all ministers in government having access to the very arguments which I

:13:23. > :13:27.believe are strong arguments for Britain to remain in the European

:13:28. > :13:31.Union, I think it is a matter of democracy. Is the Minister really

:13:32. > :13:37.suggesting that we could have a situation where a Secretary of State

:13:38. > :13:40.is denied access to key government papers, but his or her junior

:13:41. > :13:52.ministers have access to that information? What was saying is that

:13:53. > :13:58.the government has a position any civil service will advise on that

:13:59. > :14:02.position. If people have taken, and ministers had taken a personal

:14:03. > :14:06.decision to campaign personally, any personal capacity against the

:14:07. > :14:10.position of the government, then it is inappropriate to her civil

:14:11. > :14:16.service to support that position which is not the position of the

:14:17. > :14:21.government. I very much appreciate the Minister has qualified and

:14:22. > :14:26.caveat it some of the things that have been issued. The secret that

:14:27. > :14:29.there is a danger without further verification we can have a ludicrous

:14:30. > :14:35.situation where Freedom of Information Act requests and request

:14:36. > :14:38.by members of Parliament through parliamentary questions could get

:14:39. > :14:45.information out of ministers that those ministers themselves would be

:14:46. > :14:52.denied by their own civil servants? LAUGHTER I don't know whether that

:14:53. > :15:03.was directed at the shadow bench, the situation is as I have set out.

:15:04. > :15:10.The key point is this, if we were to take any other position would have

:15:11. > :15:14.civil servants not able to support the position of the government. That

:15:15. > :15:18.is the way these things have been approached in referendums in the

:15:19. > :15:28.past which seems perfectly reasonable. Because this is such a

:15:29. > :15:32.divisive issue and because so many will feel so strongly about it, it

:15:33. > :15:38.has been decided that instead of government taking the decision the

:15:39. > :15:44.people should take the decision. What does it do for the sense of

:15:45. > :15:47.fairness among the people if the big battalions of the civil service

:15:48. > :15:54.seemed to be lined up on one side of the argument and spin doctors in

:15:55. > :15:57.Downing Street do botched letters to the press from generals who have not

:15:58. > :16:07.even signed to them saying no one side of the argument is wrong and

:16:08. > :16:11.one side is right? Is took place during the passage of the European

:16:12. > :16:14.referendum bill which buyer right over friend the European minister

:16:15. > :16:20.took through, in that passage of that bill does quite debate about

:16:21. > :16:24.how things should operate. Many concessions were made by the

:16:25. > :16:28.government in order to ensure the process is fair. The results of that

:16:29. > :16:32.with the referendum act which included the requirement for the

:16:33. > :16:38.government to take a few and then to be able to send out information on

:16:39. > :16:47.various aspects of the referendum. That is exactly what we are doing. I

:16:48. > :16:51.think I heard the Minister say that some ministers are not going to be

:16:52. > :16:54.allowed to see papers making the case for Britain to remain in the

:16:55. > :16:59.you take the case of the government has very little confidence in its

:17:00. > :17:08.own argument. Can I put it that it is a constitutional outrage to deny

:17:09. > :17:16.access to arguments to documents that may have a bearing on the

:17:17. > :17:20.argument. Two ministers who are intimately involved in the social

:17:21. > :17:23.issues of this referendum. The government really need to think

:17:24. > :17:27.again about this because otherwise the British people will think that

:17:28. > :17:33.the government is intending to rig the referendum. The constitutional

:17:34. > :17:37.difficulty would arise if civil servants were being asked to support

:17:38. > :17:40.the position that was not a position of the government. The civil service

:17:41. > :17:48.is so there to support the government. This is precisely in

:17:49. > :17:53.order to stick to the Constitution as set out by the Constitutional

:17:54. > :17:57.affairs act. As carried out in practice for decades and decades

:17:58. > :18:06.before that. The job of the civil service is to support the government

:18:07. > :18:08.and that is what they should do. A native British public can be

:18:09. > :18:12.forgiven for thinking that if someone like right Honorable member

:18:13. > :18:16.for check for the Woodford Green is not permitted to see all of the

:18:17. > :18:21.relevant doctorates that he cannot advise the government the government

:18:22. > :18:29.has a fixed opinion without having all the facts. Can dissenting

:18:30. > :18:33.ministers seek papers on matters that are not directly about

:18:34. > :18:42.referendum but may have a bearing? The answers are they can see any

:18:43. > :18:46.papers except those that have a bearing on the referendum or are

:18:47. > :18:50.intended to be used in support of that position. It is not a simple

:18:51. > :18:52.black and white matter. As a matter of interpretation whether the

:18:53. > :18:57.special advisers are being handcuffed and being told they must

:18:58. > :19:00.keep things from the Secretary of State. It is an appalling thing, are

:19:01. > :19:04.they afraid of the public and indeed the facts might change the minds of

:19:05. > :19:14.some of the Honorable members that are in cabinet? At the because the

:19:15. > :19:17.public thing is they will think can we please get onto debating this

:19:18. > :19:25.substance of the question the process of how you make sure the

:19:26. > :19:30.ministers are allowed unusually to depart from the government position

:19:31. > :19:38.and yet be cuts additional position of civil service remain in place. Is

:19:39. > :19:41.it true as reporting in this mornings times without the consent

:19:42. > :19:46.or knowledge of the Secretary of State officials of the Department

:19:47. > :19:48.for Work and Pensions carried out research on the instruction of

:19:49. > :19:54.number ten to help support the case for remaining in the EU. That is

:19:55. > :19:59.indeed the case any Minister please explain how to Secretary State

:20:00. > :20:04.Canning be responsible for the work of his own department? These

:20:05. > :20:13.guidelines are restricted to the issues of the question of in and

:20:14. > :20:18.out. It is perfectly normal that there is work of communications of

:20:19. > :20:29.departments between number ten. That is how government operates. A key

:20:30. > :20:38.part of the Prime Minister's reform package was very complex changes and

:20:39. > :20:44.ended expecting a benefit. -- indexing. What progress has been

:20:45. > :20:46.made to determining whether those are delivered are not? Can he give

:20:47. > :21:17.me an honest and full answer? clear which is that they will

:21:18. > :21:23.remain. If I'm the fisheries minister, young ambitious,

:21:24. > :21:28.good-looking asked to do the premises bidding, the Prime Minister

:21:29. > :21:34.says that have to envision what my life outside the EU means for

:21:35. > :21:38.fishing. Do EU determines everything our department. I have no national

:21:39. > :21:43.policy and fishing to happen to be in the favour of the ad campaign do

:21:44. > :21:49.I go home for four months? Do I get no advice or ministers? It is not so

:21:50. > :21:55.much, yes Minister but go home for one month and we will see you in

:21:56. > :22:08.June. The member may say incredibly important point. The rules state

:22:09. > :22:15.that in all issues government continues as normal. He cannot have

:22:16. > :22:24.four months off and I'm sure he would not want to miss the next four

:22:25. > :22:27.months for the world. Which is the government department responsible

:22:28. > :22:31.for the civil service. My right honourable friend has fallen when it

:22:32. > :22:36.comes to civil service advice. In June 2015 he signed a special

:22:37. > :22:40.declaration of her writing civil service advice that for the money

:22:41. > :22:44.should not be given to kids Company which subsequently disappeared. We

:22:45. > :22:48.be opening to ministers of the crown to use that saves special

:22:49. > :22:54.declaration to override this present civil service? The question of

:22:55. > :23:01.making what is called a direct direction which I made on kids

:23:02. > :23:05.company because I thought it was worth spending the money to look

:23:06. > :23:08.after the kids in the company, it is right that ministers should be able

:23:09. > :23:13.to democratically override advice and civil service and they choose

:23:14. > :23:18.to. A lot of that is published. That is about expenditure of money. Does

:23:19. > :23:24.you debate any issues and it, although of course there are debates

:23:25. > :23:27.about growth and jobs and the economy, are not specifically about

:23:28. > :23:38.the expenditure of money. The question would not rise. Several

:23:39. > :23:43.constituents of mine have contacted me and asked where they can get the

:23:44. > :23:52.fax in order to decide in their own mind how to vote. It is after all

:23:53. > :23:58.the people not to the government that are going to decide this

:23:59. > :24:03.matter. Therefore, under the circumstances it is not the duty of

:24:04. > :24:11.the civil service to provide facts to our people to enable them to

:24:12. > :24:15.decide what they should vote. Under the circumstances again, it is it

:24:16. > :24:24.not fair to ask the Cabinet secretary to prepare a document for

:24:25. > :24:31.the people who will make this decision in his capacity as a

:24:32. > :24:39.neutral observer? Absolutely is necessary to ensure information is

:24:40. > :24:43.available on questions around this referendum that is why we published

:24:44. > :24:54.a document this morning on the process of leaving the European

:24:55. > :24:57.Union on this decision to support the government position because he

:24:58. > :25:03.supports the civil service and the whole civil service support the

:25:04. > :25:07.government position. If he is responding to his constituents than

:25:08. > :25:12.if they really want the information I can always recommend him I

:25:13. > :25:21.couldn't -- website called in. It is a great about it and it is going to

:25:22. > :25:26.be a campaign on in and to leave as well. I have this debate continues

:25:27. > :25:31.that everybody but the 23rd of June feels very informed. Can you

:25:32. > :25:38.minister to the house had the guidance rules would effectively --

:25:39. > :25:42.affect the advice given to the Prime Minister when he said the

:25:43. > :25:46.negotiations were not good enough. Proper renegotiations carried out

:25:47. > :25:51.under the referendum delayed to 2017 because that situation because it

:25:52. > :26:02.does not support the government line at all. One of the things he is not

:26:03. > :26:07.in a civil servant. What a reasonable and fair-minded person

:26:08. > :26:13.not conclude that having been rebuffed in his attempt last

:26:14. > :26:20.September the rules relating to the referendum that this has come back

:26:21. > :26:23.under the mind of the sovereignty of this house using the civil service

:26:24. > :26:31.to achieve the very same addictive? On the contrary, this guidance is

:26:32. > :26:34.the precise consequence of the Prime Minister's decision to allow

:26:35. > :26:38.ministers to campaign to leave. If you Prime Minister had not decided

:26:39. > :26:46.to allow ministers to remain in the government, but to campaign to leave

:26:47. > :26:50.the government -- European Union, then rules like this would not be

:26:51. > :26:54.necessary we would not have had to publish them. This is a direct

:26:55. > :27:00.consequence of the decision to allow the debates to take place and allow

:27:01. > :27:07.ministers to take place on one or other side of the debate. Talking of

:27:08. > :27:10.guidance, my Association this morning was issued with guidance

:27:11. > :27:14.from our North England the director, stating the party is neutral in

:27:15. > :27:18.which means that as an organisation we are not getting involved in any

:27:19. > :27:23.way on an official basis. This means that associations was not used any

:27:24. > :27:29.resources available to promote a particular view. Given this is a

:27:30. > :27:33.conservative government made up of conservative ministers from the

:27:34. > :27:40.Prime Minister to the lowly backbenchers, why she given as civil

:27:41. > :27:44.servants work for ministers of the Conservative Party why should they

:27:45. > :27:49.be taking a view of this? Is leading to people out there to conclude that

:27:50. > :27:54.there is a .Mac I don't think that is right. This house passed the EU

:27:55. > :28:00.referendum bill which required the government to give you a civil

:28:01. > :28:06.service Kazaa the government view. The Conservative Party is neutral on

:28:07. > :28:13.this matter. The government is not. That is a matter for how the party

:28:14. > :28:20.machine acts rather than how the government ask because I have said

:28:21. > :28:26.many times the civil service is duty bound by tradition and by law to

:28:27. > :28:30.follow the position of the government of the day and that is

:28:31. > :28:35.why this guidance is constructed thus.

:28:36. > :28:44.There are point of order. Point of order, Mr Bennett taken. During the

:28:45. > :28:48.exchange that we just had, it was noted that the Minister did not

:28:49. > :28:54.refer to the question and answer brief that has been securely by the

:28:55. > :28:58.Cabinet office to civil servants, which carries some of the wider

:28:59. > :29:02.interpretation of the letter. I wonder how I can jot the houses

:29:03. > :29:07.attention to that fact that we will be publishing that to the public

:29:08. > :29:11.administration and Constitutional affairs committee website later

:29:12. > :29:15.today or tomorrow, Mr Speaker. As I think that the honourable gentleman

:29:16. > :29:20.knows, and I say in response to his point of order, he has achieved his

:29:21. > :29:25.objective. He should consider the matter so advertised. I am not sure

:29:26. > :29:31.that there is a further to that point of order, but I will hear it

:29:32. > :29:35.to it. Further point of order. I read out the same question and

:29:36. > :29:39.answer, and it says that it may have a bearing. At one point, Mr Speaker,

:29:40. > :29:44.can we have some sort of quantification of what may have a

:29:45. > :29:50.bearing on absolute -- actually means. That will be a matter for the

:29:51. > :29:54.government. Legendarily, the Minister and from whom we just heard

:29:55. > :30:04.is always keen to address the House. Indeed, he is in... For addressing

:30:05. > :30:09.the House. If the Minister wishes to respond to the honourable lady with

:30:10. > :30:12.that legendary sectors for which he is renowned, we are happy to hear

:30:13. > :30:27.from him. He is not an obligation to do so. I think I answered that

:30:28. > :30:32.point. The question is how do we make sure that the guidance means

:30:33. > :30:39.that civil servants follows the government position including on the

:30:40. > :30:46.in out question. That is the only question from which ministers can

:30:47. > :30:52.move from the government position, so it is a question as if something

:30:53. > :30:56.is in and out question, or is normal EU business. I think that I set that

:30:57. > :31:00.out earlier, I might have cited the same. Ismael are thought to the

:31:01. > :31:04.Minister. I am not sure from the head movements of the honourable

:31:05. > :31:09.member, that he is satisfied. I am not sure that he would have been

:31:10. > :31:16.able to do so. He has graciously come to the box. I will come back to

:31:17. > :31:19.members who are expected, but if you will forgive me... Expected at the

:31:20. > :31:23.opportunity to raise point of order I should say. Perhaps I can be

:31:24. > :31:29.permitted to take other points of order first move will come come to

:31:30. > :31:37.these illustrious members. I have made the awkward turn it -- office.

:31:38. > :31:39.This morning the secretary of state announced major changes in the

:31:40. > :31:42.timetable and content of the proposed Wales Bill. He has decided

:31:43. > :31:49.to. Instead of coming to this house to

:31:50. > :31:52.inform honourable and right honourable members and answer their

:31:53. > :31:55.questions about how he will be proceeding, the secretary of states

:31:56. > :31:59.chose to make the significant announcement in front of a gathering

:32:00. > :32:02.of generous -- journalist in Cardiff. Even suggesting on Twitter

:32:03. > :32:07.that honourable members can wait until Thursday to put their

:32:08. > :32:09.questions to him. Can I ask, Mr Speaker, if the Secretary of State

:32:10. > :32:13.for Wales gave you any indication that he will be announcing this

:32:14. > :32:16.major change of policy today. Whether he has been indicated if

:32:17. > :32:22.you'll be making an oral statement to the House as the paragraph I'm .1

:32:23. > :32:26.of the ministerial code. I'm grateful to the honourable lady for

:32:27. > :32:34.her answer. I have no advantage -- advance notice of this. It would be

:32:35. > :32:37.only fair, for me to say that whether this amounts to what she

:32:38. > :32:45.described as a major change of policy or is merely a temporary

:32:46. > :32:53.pause or a tactical judgement I don't know. Suffice it to say that

:32:54. > :32:57.if it is a change of policy or a significant change in government

:32:58. > :33:02.intentions for a notable period, I think that the House would expect

:33:03. > :33:09.properly to be informed us that. There are means by which ministers

:33:10. > :33:13.can inform the House either to the device of an answer to a written

:33:14. > :33:17.question, or by written ministerial statement. To my knowledge, neither

:33:18. > :33:21.thus far has been forthcoming. The point of

:33:22. > :33:30.will shortly be heard. By the Welsh office, and I hope that the proper

:33:31. > :33:35.account will be taken of it. If the honourable lady needs to return to

:33:36. > :33:39.the point she will do so. A point of order and then I will come to

:33:40. > :33:43.others. I seek your assistance in relation to open matter that is of

:33:44. > :33:49.some concern to me. In December, I asked by means of a written question

:33:50. > :33:52.what are the Chancellor -- when the chancellor last met to discuss

:33:53. > :33:56.certain matters. They response advise the Treasury ministers meet

:33:57. > :33:58.with a wide variety of organizations and referred me to be treasured

:33:59. > :34:01.transparency report online saying that this was for details of such

:34:02. > :34:05.meetings were published. The supports detailed no bilateral

:34:06. > :34:10.meetings between the Treasury and SCA over a two-year period. I

:34:11. > :34:13.therefore jealousy economic Secretary to the Treasury who is

:34:14. > :34:16.aware that I am raising this matter today on this point during the

:34:17. > :34:19.backbench debate on the 12th of January. She did not address this

:34:20. > :34:22.matter and have response, so I raised up with her dad and a back

:34:23. > :34:26.bench to does this debate on the 1st of February. To my great surprise,

:34:27. > :34:29.the honourable lady stated that contrary to what the honourable

:34:30. > :34:37.member seems to think, she had to need the acting chief executive and

:34:38. > :34:41.chief. Of course, my opinion was formed on the basis of a brand

:34:42. > :34:46.answer. The Treasurer's on transparency report, and agendas

:34:47. > :34:50.with the Minister and the chamber, which should rely upon. It is worth

:34:51. > :34:54.knowing that this has risen in relation to another question, but by

:34:55. > :34:57.being referred by the Minister for disabled people to a nonexistent or

:34:58. > :35:01.impossible to locate piece of information on the DWP website. Mr

:35:02. > :35:05.Speaker, the records suggest that I have misunderstood or mistaken,

:35:06. > :35:09.neither of these things is true, and I would be obliged for good advice

:35:10. > :35:13.on how to set the record straight on this matter. Mr Speaker, I would be

:35:14. > :35:18.most grateful if you could advise on how best to stop ministers referring

:35:19. > :35:21.to members to websites which do not engage -- contain relevant

:35:22. > :35:27.information. Am grateful to the honourable lady for her point of

:35:28. > :35:32.order. She was kind enough to give me an advanced notice. I think that

:35:33. > :35:36.I am brain saying with a simple nod or shake of the head, but she also

:35:37. > :35:40.gave notice of the point of order. I am grateful to her for confirmation

:35:41. > :35:43.of that to the Minister concerned. Well, the short answer to the

:35:44. > :35:49.honourable lady, and it is for the benefit of the House, is that

:35:50. > :35:59.answers to members of's questions should be direct substantive, and

:36:00. > :36:05.Canada. I am with the view that it is not helpful if government

:36:06. > :36:09.departments for honourable or right honourable members and written

:36:10. > :36:12.answers to websites in which the information requested may be

:36:13. > :36:19.located. That cannot easily be found. A much more straightforward

:36:20. > :36:24.process but I think that the public would expect is that you provide an

:36:25. > :36:29.answer to the question. It's not really all that complicated. That

:36:30. > :36:36.said, I have to emphasise of course but the contents of written answers

:36:37. > :36:40.and the content of ministerial statements and the House has to be a

:36:41. > :36:43.matter for the judgement of individual ministers. It is not for

:36:44. > :36:47.the trip to determine, but I am offering an overall sentiment which

:36:48. > :36:51.I think that will be shared across the House. As to how the honourable

:36:52. > :37:00.lady can put the matter straight, I would suggest that with this point

:37:01. > :37:09.of order she has begun to do so. Point of order Doctor Liam Fox. This

:37:10. > :37:13.relates to the conduct of the House of Commons. When ministers come to

:37:14. > :37:16.the House of Commons they are required to give full and informed

:37:17. > :37:20.answers to the questions that we ask is members of Parliament. I wonder,

:37:21. > :37:23.Mr Speaker, whether you were able to give us guidance having given the

:37:24. > :37:27.matter some thought. Probably know it ministers have been fully

:37:28. > :37:30.informed if we know that the process is purposely withholding information

:37:31. > :37:34.from those who may be required to get answers to the House of Commons.

:37:35. > :37:41.Huckabee then carry out our duty of scrutiny properly? I fear that it

:37:42. > :37:45.would be hazardous for me to tread on the terrain of point may be

:37:46. > :37:56.called the known unknowns. Or even the unknown unknowns. That will be

:37:57. > :38:04.difficult, and the question is I fear at this stage hypothetical. It

:38:05. > :38:08.is a problematic matter, and I think that the best that I can say to the

:38:09. > :38:14.right honourable gentleman is that the chair, of course, will keenly

:38:15. > :38:21.the kid -- attends to events and people have to look at this matter

:38:22. > :38:24.as and when it arises on a case-by-case basis. I want to be

:38:25. > :38:27.looking at it proactively, but it members raise the matter with the

:38:28. > :38:34.chair, the chair will do his best to respond. I expressed my admiration

:38:35. > :38:40.for my right honourable friend the Minister on the front bench, and I

:38:41. > :38:45.just whether whether there is any mechanism to war to someone who is

:38:46. > :38:54.thrown into the lion's Dan and has to defend the indefensible. LAUGHTER

:38:55. > :38:59.I think that I will treat that for what it is. Not a point of order,

:39:00. > :39:05.but an inventive rhetorical question. At any rate, but the

:39:06. > :39:11.honourable member for Litchfield seems justly satisfied. I think that

:39:12. > :39:16.we will find out we get there. We are deeply grateful for the Minister

:39:17. > :39:20.for coming into the chamber and responding to our inquiries. If

:39:21. > :39:24.there are no further point of order the appetite has been satisfied. At

:39:25. > :39:31.any rate for today. The now come to the motion on the draft European

:39:32. > :39:42.union referendum brackets date of referendum etc ) regulations 2016.

:39:43. > :39:48.To move the motion... Oh, just before I ask the Minister my

:39:49. > :39:52.illustrious member to move the motion I should inform the House

:39:53. > :39:57.that I have been considered the instruments. I have decided not to

:39:58. > :40:04.certify it understanding order number 83 people. To move the motion

:40:05. > :40:13.I called the Minister of State for Europe, Mr David Whittington. I beg

:40:14. > :40:19.to move that the draft European Union referendum date of referendum

:40:20. > :40:23.etc regulations 2016 be approved. The statutory insert before us does

:40:24. > :40:29.a simple but critical shop. It puts in place the necessary legislation

:40:30. > :40:33.to enable a referendum to be had on the 23rd of June of this year. This

:40:34. > :40:40.is the last piece of legislation that will be debated in this chamber

:40:41. > :40:43.to make that vote possible. As such, it represents Parliament taking the

:40:44. > :40:47.final steps towards a historic moment. Where for the first time in

:40:48. > :40:52.more than 40 years, the British evil will be given their say on the

:40:53. > :40:59.United Kingdom's membership in the European Union bash people. I

:41:00. > :41:03.honourable friend the Prime Minister announced his intention to hold a

:41:04. > :41:06.referendum on the 23rd of June. The government believes that the strikes

:41:07. > :41:10.an appropriate balance giving plenty of time for a vigorous and

:41:11. > :41:15.comprehensive debate. Ultimately, the date is a matter for Parliament

:41:16. > :41:18.to decide. To set out in a referendum not that this is a

:41:19. > :41:22.decision that must be approved but here and in the House of Lords. I

:41:23. > :41:25.get back to my honourable friend. I am fascinated by my right honourable

:41:26. > :41:31.friend's reference to vigorous and open debate. It is quite clear from

:41:32. > :41:35.the preceding urgent question and then many other matters which are

:41:36. > :41:39.come to light recently that the one thing on which everybody needs

:41:40. > :41:43.information is the one thing that people are going to find themselves

:41:44. > :41:46.deprived up, because if they don't have balanced information and

:41:47. > :41:55.impartial and accurate information, what are they supposed to do? My

:41:56. > :42:01.advice to any of Lecter would be to look at what certainly the

:42:02. > :42:05.government is saying, but also to look at what the various campaign

:42:06. > :42:11.groups and other organizations in this country are saying. I will

:42:12. > :42:14.come, later on, to the question of the designation of campaign

:42:15. > :42:27.organizations, but we need the statutory interest to be approved.

:42:28. > :42:30.-- instrument. And give them access to the privileges that come with

:42:31. > :42:36.outside is precisely so that they can go out and present their case

:42:37. > :42:41.and bank information and argument available to people who my

:42:42. > :42:47.honourable friend prefers. The instrument... I am grateful it for

:42:48. > :42:52.giving way. To the government decide on an early referendum and not to

:42:53. > :42:55.push back on the pathetic not offer that we were made because we do not

:42:56. > :42:59.think that we've are going to get anything for it having out of the

:43:00. > :43:06.EU? I think that on the contrary that my right honourable friend

:43:07. > :43:09.secured a deal that has brought us some significant reform to the

:43:10. > :43:15.European Union. I think that I would advise my right honourable friend to

:43:16. > :43:19.look at the reaction in many European capitals, in the media

:43:20. > :43:24.across Europe, and in the European Parliament. The reaction it has

:43:25. > :43:28.largely been one of considerable surprise at the degree to which the

:43:29. > :43:34.Prime Minister of the United Kingdom was able to secure reform that in

:43:35. > :43:38.some cases that commentary involved a fair measure of criticism of other

:43:39. > :43:47.government leaders for conceding what they believed was too much. I

:43:48. > :43:54.will give way to the honourable Lady, and then I must ask the House

:43:55. > :43:58.to allow me to make some progress. I wonder, I have been happy for a

:43:59. > :44:03.referendum, would he get the House the reason why the Prime Minister

:44:04. > :44:09.felt that the word and letters from the three leaders of the three

:44:10. > :44:16.separate assemblies, Parliament and the United Kingdom were just so

:44:17. > :44:21.ignored? Was that not really showing his use disrespect? First of all,

:44:22. > :44:28.the letter was not ignored. We certainly took account of the views

:44:29. > :44:32.of the devolved administrations even though we decided again to disagree

:44:33. > :44:36.with the recommendation that they made. I do want to come to that

:44:37. > :44:44.particular point at a later stage in my remarks. He date is just one

:44:45. > :44:50.element of this order, but it is clearly the most important because

:44:51. > :44:55.the remaining elements of being order largely flow from the date

:44:56. > :44:58.itself. I want to move on now to explain the government's thinking on

:44:59. > :45:06.the date, and then to the rest of the order. There must be enough time

:45:07. > :45:10.for a full, serious, and considered debate which allows all of the

:45:11. > :45:14.issues involved to have a full airing. The campaigners must have

:45:15. > :45:21.enough time to put their case to the British people. On the other hand,

:45:22. > :45:24.and although this may grieve some honourable members in the House, the

:45:25. > :45:31.campaign cannot continue indefinitely. The vote should be

:45:32. > :45:41.timely. Love the issues are live, and the dish -- details are fresh.

:45:42. > :45:48.While. They are already prominent campaign groups, and following the

:45:49. > :45:51.Prime Minister announcement on the renegotiation, that debate on the

:45:52. > :45:57.referendum question one not begin in earnest and is already setting to

:45:58. > :46:03.gather real momentum. The government selected and June the 23rd because

:46:04. > :46:07.the thought that we need in enough time for proper airing of issues,

:46:08. > :46:12.and any sooner would have risked curtailing that debate. To go any

:46:13. > :46:17.later was test the patience of the British people. School holidays,

:46:18. > :46:22.begin in Scotland on the 24th of June, and people will from then on

:46:23. > :46:26.be travelling and enjoying their summer. Later than June the 23rd,

:46:27. > :46:31.therefore, is essentially what mean waiting until after the summer and

:46:32. > :46:37.the summer holiday period had concluded in all parts of the United

:46:38. > :46:42.Kingdom and in Gibraltar. I think that frankly the British people

:46:43. > :46:47.would have found it very difficult to understand if we asked them to

:46:48. > :46:49.wait seven or eight months after the conclusion of the renegotiation

:46:50. > :46:54.before they were allowed to have their say. I give way to my

:46:55. > :46:57.honourable friend. Ivories with them before the fact that June the 23rd

:46:58. > :47:03.is also scheduled to be a European Council. What can we do to ensure

:47:04. > :47:08.that if the leaf campaign looks to be gaining momentum at a late stage,

:47:09. > :47:11.but that will not be used in order to try and pretend things are on the

:47:12. > :47:15.agenda to change in Drupal's appended. Or the beating of things

:47:16. > :47:26.in advance of that meeting to try and gifts... I think that my

:47:27. > :47:32.honourable friend needs to study more carefully both the words of the

:47:33. > :47:38.documents that were published at the end of the renegotiation, and the

:47:39. > :47:45.words of a number of European leaders. They could not have made it

:47:46. > :47:52.clear that they were not interested and if further negotiation, and that

:47:53. > :47:56.the important safeguards that my right honourable friend the Prime

:47:57. > :47:59.Minister secured during the renegotiation was lapse

:48:00. > :48:07.automatically in the event of a boat to leave. -- vote. That is written

:48:08. > :48:14.into the document itself. And in practical terms, holding a vote

:48:15. > :48:21.means 80 weeks between announcing a deal in the vote, and it needs a

:48:22. > :48:30.full ten weeks were up -- referendum period. Meaning the electoral

:48:31. > :48:35.commission recommendations. The designation process would be

:48:36. > :48:41.commenced on the 4th of March, and the electoral commission must have

:48:42. > :48:50.designated the two MLA campaigns activate is by the 14th of April. --

:48:51. > :48:54.umbrella. Last week, they published their assessment of readiness and

:48:55. > :48:59.said that they were contended that the date does not pose a significant

:49:00. > :49:05.risk to a well-run referendum. It is quite true as the honourable lady

:49:06. > :49:14.said, but there are still some concerns about the date. That has

:49:15. > :49:20.come in particular from members of the devolved administrations, and

:49:21. > :49:28.members in this place representing those parts of the United Kingdom.

:49:29. > :49:33.He expressed concern during questions about the possible

:49:34. > :49:38.interaction with the elections in Scotland, Wales, and Northern

:49:39. > :49:42.Ireland on the 5th of May, as well of course is that being the date of

:49:43. > :49:46.various local mayoral elections in different parts of the United

:49:47. > :49:52.Kingdom. I have to say that I think that those fears are misplaced, not

:49:53. > :49:58.least because there are are ready multiple elections being held on the

:49:59. > :50:09.5th of May itself. I really don't see why a referendum that is seven

:50:10. > :50:17.weeks after the date of the devolved parliamentary assembly elections

:50:18. > :50:22.should be regarded as disrespectful. By contrast, I would argue that we

:50:23. > :50:26.are treating voters with respect one we assume that they should be

:50:27. > :50:33.perfectly capable of distinguishing between two different campaigns that

:50:34. > :50:38.will be nearly two months apart. I will give weight to the honourable

:50:39. > :50:45.gentleman. They're grateful to the Minister. He has just affirmed that

:50:46. > :50:52.this will launch in the middle of the devolved administration

:50:53. > :50:58.campaign. Why is he not taking the concerns expressed by all of those

:50:59. > :51:10.parties seriously? For reasons that I have said I think that to have

:51:11. > :51:15.left the referendum date until autumn would have tested the

:51:16. > :51:23.patience of the British people for the duration of the campaign. The

:51:24. > :51:28.campaign has already got under way. What would be starting in the period

:51:29. > :51:36.that he describes is deregulated campaign doing special rules on

:51:37. > :51:40.campaign expenditure applied. When he takes a reassurance from me that

:51:41. > :51:46.in relation to the canvassing that I have been doing for the London

:51:47. > :51:52.mayoral candidate that voters have no difficulty whatsoever and

:51:53. > :51:56.understanding that there is election for mayor and London, and among the

:51:57. > :52:01.assembly, and indeed a European referendum taken place some months

:52:02. > :52:07.later. I think that the right honourable sense of empathy gives

:52:08. > :52:16.farewell. Others have said that June is too soon. Traditionally, it a

:52:17. > :52:21.general election has been held with only six weeks notice. It is only

:52:22. > :52:24.since the passage of the fixed term parliaments act under the Coalition

:52:25. > :52:28.government that we have moved away from that practice. This referendum

:52:29. > :52:33.has had a much longer gestation period, the intention to hold a

:52:34. > :52:43.referendum before the end of 2017 was announced in the Prime Minister

:52:44. > :52:48.'s speech. And again when the referendum act was passed in

:52:49. > :52:52.December 20 15. This intended date was announced for months in advance.

:52:53. > :52:57.I think that this referendum has been a long time coming. I give way

:52:58. > :53:02.to the honourable gentleman. The Scottish independence referendum was

:53:03. > :53:05.held in September. Campaign benefited from campaigning and the

:53:06. > :53:23.warm temperature. Of course, the rules vary depending

:53:24. > :53:34.on the nature of the election concerned. The rules for the

:53:35. > :53:40.devolved elections limit what state and government is agencies are able

:53:41. > :53:44.to to say. Rather, we are talking here of whether the question of the

:53:45. > :53:48.United Kingdom to be in or out of the European Union, and that is

:53:49. > :53:53.without any doubt whatsoever, a research competence in respect of

:53:54. > :53:56.all three devolution settlement. I will give way to the honourable

:53:57. > :54:12.gentleman, and that I will make some progress. She has --

:54:13. > :54:18.he does not have time to do that now, but will the Minister undertake

:54:19. > :54:26.to make sure that all of that information will be placed as soon

:54:27. > :54:30.as possible after this debate? Mr Speaker, we took account of that

:54:31. > :54:34.letter. He also took very careful account of the specific request from

:54:35. > :54:38.the official foreign affairs spokesman of the Scottish national

:54:39. > :54:44.party and foreign office questions on the 12th of January, when the

:54:45. > :54:49.right honourable member for Gordon asked for an assurance that the date

:54:50. > :54:54.of a referendum would be at least six weeks after the date of the

:54:55. > :54:57.Scottish, Welsh, and Northern Irish election. That request from the

:54:58. > :55:01.right honourable member, I presume on behalf of his party for whom he

:55:02. > :55:06.was speaking at those questions, has been met, and has been met and full.

:55:07. > :55:10.The electoral commission has confirmed that they are content with

:55:11. > :55:14.the government's proposals, and said that in their view of ranges for a

:55:15. > :55:21.well-run referendum are now well advanced. This statutory initiative

:55:22. > :55:25.has been considered now by both the joint committee on statutory

:55:26. > :55:34.instruments, and the secondary legislation scrutiny committee. --

:55:35. > :55:39.instruments. Mr Speaker, I now turn to the other part of the secondary

:55:40. > :55:43.legislation. This is very much in line with the framework set out by

:55:44. > :55:49.the EU referendum act, so I shall be brief. I thought is that the date,

:55:50. > :55:52.this order does three things. First, it said the circuit for the

:55:53. > :55:55.designation process. This is the process by which the electoral

:55:56. > :56:01.commission appoints lead campaign is on one or both sides. We have

:56:02. > :56:05.followed should be political party elections and referendums act, and

:56:06. > :56:11.allowed a full six weeks. This will give campaigners a full week window

:56:12. > :56:15.to finalise and submit applications, and the electoral commission will

:56:16. > :56:19.than half of two weeks to decide which if any applicants to designate

:56:20. > :56:26.at the beach for each site. Let me be absolutely clear, this instrument

:56:27. > :56:32.does not tell the electoral commission had to make its decision.

:56:33. > :56:36.That decision is entirely impartial in the test would speak of it for a

:56:37. > :56:43.commission must apply when making this decision is set out in the

:56:44. > :56:47.political referendum acts, as modified by the EU referendum asked

:56:48. > :56:52.pointedly 15. All this order does is that

:56:53. > :56:58.the rest of the timetable, finishing at the latest on the 14th of April

:56:59. > :57:04.was set out in the clinical party election referendum act 2000.

:57:05. > :57:10.Can the Minister give some indication as to whether the

:57:11. > :57:14.designation process by the commission is open to challenge and

:57:15. > :57:23.if so high that challenge that operate? Any executive decision by

:57:24. > :57:29.any public authority is potentially at risk of judicial review, but the

:57:30. > :57:35.electoral commission has a set of criteria as set out in prepare which

:57:36. > :57:41.will guide its in making its assessment am sure they will want to

:57:42. > :57:49.explain their verdict when they publish it and I would think they

:57:50. > :57:53.would have to be a pretty overwhelming case for a judicial

:57:54. > :57:58.review application to succeed. But that option is available. The

:57:59. > :58:03.electoral commissions initial guided tour campaigners was updated on the

:58:04. > :58:06.5th of February. Potential habitants have had plenty of notice. They have

:58:07. > :58:13.now published the application online. I remind the House of the

:58:14. > :58:18.lead campaigners once designated will receive a number of benefits,

:58:19. > :58:23.including a higher spending limit of up to ?7 million, or a free delivery

:58:24. > :58:28.of mailings of every household or a lector, and to assumption that a

:58:29. > :58:36.campaigner is designated on both sides access to a grant of up to

:58:37. > :58:43.?600,000 and access to a broadcast. The second additional element in the

:58:44. > :58:46.order is the referendum period. Namely the period when full

:58:47. > :58:49.financial campaigning control of life. In particular when the

:58:50. > :58:55.spending limits are proposed on Parliament campaigners. This

:58:56. > :59:00.referendum period is set out in the order as a full ten weeks and it

:59:01. > :59:05.will not overlap with the designation process. This is the

:59:06. > :59:10.approach recommended by the electoral commission and the

:59:11. > :59:21.referendum period will start on the 15th of April. Perhaps he is going

:59:22. > :59:27.onto it, but can he clarified very clearly how this affects government

:59:28. > :59:32.spending and by government I made the cabinets that are supporting the

:59:33. > :59:38.staying in and those that aren't. House is going to work for the

:59:39. > :59:45.government? The limits on what the government is able to do are set out

:59:46. > :59:51.in sections 125 of the political party referendums act of 2000 that

:59:52. > :59:54.the Honorable Lady will recall was subject of significant debate on the

:59:55. > :00:01.referendum act was going through its stages in this house and the

:00:02. > :00:09.restrictions will remain as set out in the 2000 act. In addition, the

:00:10. > :00:15.referendum act itself when requiring the government to publish particular

:00:16. > :00:22.items of information also says that the government must do that at least

:00:23. > :00:28.ten weeks before the date of the referendum. Those are the

:00:29. > :00:35.restrictions that she asked me to talk about. Finally, the order sets

:00:36. > :00:40.up the periods for reporting donations from loans received by

:00:41. > :00:43.registered campaigners and sets the deadline by which those reports must

:00:44. > :00:48.be submitted to the electoral commission. The purpose of those

:00:49. > :00:53.arrangements are to ensure the sources of campaign finance are

:00:54. > :00:59.visible and public before the poll itself. Ensuring a transparent

:01:00. > :01:05.campaign. That the decision before us today is a decision -- invisible

:01:06. > :01:13.one. Whether the British people should have their say. The 23rd of

:01:14. > :01:16.June to strike the right balance without testing publications. It is

:01:17. > :01:19.time for the campaign as political parties to make their cases and for

:01:20. > :01:27.the British people to decide. I commend the order to the house.

:01:28. > :01:35.Hear, hear! Is the motion on the draft European Union referendum

:01:36. > :01:45.referendum etc regulations 2016 on the order paper at last. So much of

:01:46. > :01:52.today seems to have been on a process but I hope this will be the

:01:53. > :01:57.last. Can I just check with the Minister some of the details of the

:01:58. > :02:01.store is you meant. The statutory instruments the date of the

:02:02. > :02:04.referendum whether the United Kingdom to remain a member of the

:02:05. > :02:11.European Union. It also describes the length of the referendum period,

:02:12. > :02:16.the start of the period of the applications and the periods for

:02:17. > :02:24.reporting it donates for rugged transactions. The main purpose of

:02:25. > :02:29.the tester is you meant is setting the date in June as the referendum

:02:30. > :02:38.would take place the whole of the UK and Gibraltar. It would begin with

:02:39. > :02:43.the 15th of April 2016 and prescribes at the 4th of March as

:02:44. > :02:47.the side of the period that applications can be designated for

:02:48. > :02:53.the referendum. I missed this poses no problem for organizations

:02:54. > :03:00.campaign to remain in the UK, but the hope of the ad campaign but has

:03:01. > :03:03.a greater problem with this. I think the time is now to get their acts

:03:04. > :03:09.together and they're going to hit the deadline. It also set up period

:03:10. > :03:15.for reporting by permitted participants were not registered

:03:16. > :03:20.parties or are minor parties of donations are regulated

:03:21. > :03:24.transactions, for example laws and the dates on or before was reported

:03:25. > :03:36.to the Honorable commission. -- loans. As soon as the government's

:03:37. > :03:42.European negotiations have ended, as you get on with it. Is that for,

:03:43. > :03:50.jobs and working people. She will be aware of the letter of the First

:03:51. > :03:56.Minister of Wales, and he is of course a Labour Party member. He

:03:57. > :04:04.said that holding a referendum means that a significant part of the

:04:05. > :04:11.referendum... Clarity is required. Will she be supporting his position

:04:12. > :04:22.initiate stains or if the their party votes with the government can

:04:23. > :04:25.we not take what he says seriously? They've agreed with the electoral

:04:26. > :04:28.commission when it said referendum date should be separate from the

:04:29. > :04:32.date when other goals are taking place. And succeeded in pressuring

:04:33. > :04:38.the government to abandon the European referendum bill to stop the

:04:39. > :04:42.holding of the referendum of the 5th of May 2016 so I did not clash with

:04:43. > :04:49.other elections on that day. We do not agree with the XMP and others

:04:50. > :04:53.who believe it is disrespectful to hold the Reverend among the 23rd of

:04:54. > :04:58.June. -- SNP. They believe the people of the UK are perfectly

:04:59. > :05:03.capable I'm making a important decision in early May and another

:05:04. > :05:07.important decision in early June seven weeks later. We think it is

:05:08. > :05:11.patronizing to suggest otherwise. This country is safer, stronger, and

:05:12. > :05:16.more prosperous in Europe and Labour public is campaigning to in. Our

:05:17. > :05:23.membership of the year brings us jobs, growth, and investment and

:05:24. > :05:34.British firsters and consumers -- workers. And he helps keep us safe.

:05:35. > :05:36.Can you confirm that the position of the Labour Party in Scotland votes

:05:37. > :05:40.to stay in the European Union and the rest the UK votes to leave she

:05:41. > :05:46.is quite happy for Scotland to be dragged out of the EU against its

:05:47. > :05:50.will. The position of the Labour Party as that is for the people of

:05:51. > :05:54.the UK to make a decision on this. The people on Scotland had a

:05:55. > :06:04.referendum and chose to stay as part of the UK. Is she grew with me that

:06:05. > :06:11.if we put the date of the referendum back the on the 23rd of June this is

:06:12. > :06:18.beyond the summer and says into the autumn, because many people are in

:06:19. > :06:23.holidays in August. It would just prolong the period of uncertainty

:06:24. > :06:26.and all the risk to business investment that goes along with it

:06:27. > :06:32.if we were to prolong this time period. I agree. Uncertainty is bad

:06:33. > :06:35.for British jobs and for the British economy and therefore we believe

:06:36. > :06:41.that the longer this goes on the more damage is done to our economy

:06:42. > :06:47.and jobs. Would she think that the EU state aid rules energy crisis,

:06:48. > :06:51.energy intervention, and procurement rules have done for still jobs, what

:06:52. > :06:57.is the fisheries policy done for fishing jobs? I think those of the

:06:58. > :07:04.issues that people are going to have to make it decision on. It is not

:07:05. > :07:08.related. We set this great country would build to make its way in the

:07:09. > :07:14.world outside the EU, but leaving would cost us dearly in all kinds of

:07:15. > :07:18.ways in terms of jobs, and says on our competitiveness in business, in

:07:19. > :07:23.terms of our safety of our citizens from terrorism, crime, climate

:07:24. > :07:32.change and more. From groups like Isis, Daesh it is not right to

:07:33. > :07:37.discuss our safety and security as a nation. We do not want to see the

:07:38. > :07:42.UK's leading Europe. Many of our partners want to work with us to

:07:43. > :07:48.further reform the EU and looking to the UK to lead on this. Leaving the

:07:49. > :07:53.EU risks future peace in Europe and Britain's inputs in the world. When

:07:54. > :08:01.the government Labour past the political parties and supported the

:08:02. > :08:07.passage of the referendum act. We support this today. Believe it to

:08:08. > :08:12.others to modify the data of the referendum, we're getting on and

:08:13. > :08:17.putting our energy and the referendum in keeping Britain's

:08:18. > :08:29.leading in Europe. I think she has completed her speech. The date is

:08:30. > :08:31.obviously a crucial moment in the development of this referendum but I

:08:32. > :08:36.have to say I do have reservations about the 23rd of June. I had not

:08:37. > :08:44.yet decided I wanted to hear what the Scottish national party had to

:08:45. > :08:49.say about this. It may have some impact on the way decide to vote in

:08:50. > :08:54.this matter. To block the Democratic side of this. I mentioned earlier,

:08:55. > :08:57.on the 3rd of February and my response to the Prime Minister's

:08:58. > :09:04.statement from the European Council, I started by saying this is all

:09:05. > :09:09.about voters trust. I went on to give examples of why I thought the

:09:10. > :09:20.promises of pimples desk principles have been broken. -- principles. Was

:09:21. > :09:23.the political stick up by the European Council because the

:09:24. > :09:30.agreement such as his is and any other subsequent legal arrangements

:09:31. > :09:37.must be both legally binding, and irreversible. So the question of

:09:38. > :09:41.whether or not the information which is contained in the white paper

:09:42. > :09:46.which was published a few days ago, on which I have had quite an

:09:47. > :09:55.interesting weekend, given the remarks that were made about it. I

:09:56. > :10:02.don't need to elaborate. The fact is, that also cause me no concern

:10:03. > :10:06.whatsoever. The bottom line is, the question of whether or not it is

:10:07. > :10:09.irreversible is a question of trust. I'm what about relation to the state

:10:10. > :10:13.is whether or not between now and then, given for example the issue in

:10:14. > :10:19.the imported urgent question that you have allowed us today on a

:10:20. > :10:23.question of information and the question up with the Minister and a

:10:24. > :10:31.question indeed my right honourable friend the Member for parish act six

:10:32. > :10:36.is going to be interviewing the Cabinet secretary tomorrow on this

:10:37. > :10:41.matter. The real question here is about voters trust. And is in the

:10:42. > :10:46.case that people on the 23rd of June are going to have enough proper

:10:47. > :10:52.information based on a fair arrangement between both sides of

:10:53. > :10:59.the debate with the government insisting first of all on the

:11:00. > :11:04.partner arrangements that he wanted use the whole civil service

:11:05. > :11:12.machinery. Then they brought in this legal duty through the House of

:11:13. > :11:16.Lords if I may say pretending that actually has come from other people

:11:17. > :11:19.in the House of Lords click really it was at least have sponsored by

:11:20. > :11:26.them. A legal duty to provide this information. When we got to the

:11:27. > :11:32.ping-pong, my right honourable friend was sitting there. I waited

:11:33. > :11:36.until the last minutes before the ping-pong and did. I got up and said

:11:37. > :11:42.to my right elbow friend, will he give me a straight answer, yes or

:11:43. > :11:50.no, really information that is due to the published be both accurate

:11:51. > :11:54.and impartial? He said of course. He added it will be perverse if we were

:11:55. > :12:01.to do otherwise. I have to say I'm intrigued that on the 23rd of June,

:12:02. > :12:05.they may not have impartial and accurate information. I believe that

:12:06. > :12:13.the government is probably, if not certainly, in Purdue duty on section

:12:14. > :12:18.six and seven on the European referendum act. Despite what the

:12:19. > :12:22.Minister had to say about this, the words the opinion of in this

:12:23. > :12:29.context, where not be it efficient safeguard from them from the

:12:30. > :12:35.potential concerns that they must already be in some peoples minds.

:12:36. > :12:43.This is not fair and it will not be either. This is a very important

:12:44. > :12:48.matter in the honourable gentleman wanted me to give way and would be

:12:49. > :12:52.happy to do so. I would like to take that opportunity, I am confused

:12:53. > :12:58.because of the Postmaster General answered the question I put to him,

:12:59. > :13:04.Mr Speaker, he said the Cabinet secretary is not neutral. That I

:13:05. > :13:09.except when the Cabinet secretary is ready for the government but in this

:13:10. > :13:14.matter, the Cabinet secretary may well be working for the people. The

:13:15. > :13:22.people are going to decide this matter and therefore in my view is

:13:23. > :13:31.proper to the Cabinet secretary or someone of his ilk should draft or

:13:32. > :13:37.had up a paper which puts the facts for both sides of the argument that

:13:38. > :13:43.the people who are going to make the decision for who he is responsible,

:13:44. > :13:47.because as the people decision, the people will get the facts that they

:13:48. > :13:53.can make a decision based on objective facts. I'm very grateful

:13:54. > :13:56.to my Honorable friend, because the sentiments he has expressed are very

:13:57. > :14:03.very relevant to this question of voters trust. I said in the debates

:14:04. > :14:07.on the 25th of February, and indeed of the Foreign Secretary gave

:14:08. > :14:10.evidence to the European scrutiny committee would look to all these

:14:11. > :14:18.matters in great depth. Effectively, I go further, it definitely the

:14:19. > :14:25.government are cheating. This cannot be said to be legally binding and

:14:26. > :14:34.irreversible. I also mentioned that with respect to the debate on the

:14:35. > :14:40.25th of February I pointed out that the Council conclusions, and I would

:14:41. > :14:46.request Honorable members to look because the conclusions -- and

:14:47. > :14:51.referred to the words of legally binding and then they talk about a

:14:52. > :14:57.common accord with respect to the international Law agreement. But

:14:58. > :15:01.they cannot do is to say what they said in is Council conclusions that

:15:02. > :15:09.it would be a reversible. Furthermore, although they have been

:15:10. > :15:15.saying it irreversible, they cannot prove that is the case. I will

:15:16. > :15:18.explain why in one second. On the 23rd of June there is going to be

:15:19. > :15:22.the most momentous and historic decision taken by all people in the

:15:23. > :15:26.United Kingdom for a vote. They're actually having right to know

:15:27. > :15:32.whether the question they're going to be asked to remain or to leave

:15:33. > :15:36.can be answered. It is the basis of my proposition that it is impossible

:15:37. > :15:39.for them to know whether is going to be irreversible for a simple reason.

:15:40. > :15:43.First of all, under this international agreement with the

:15:44. > :15:50.European Court may or may not take into account the question is by this

:15:51. > :15:54.white paper which we have been given. Certainly there is no

:15:55. > :16:03.guarantee of a treaty change. Certainly, there is no guarantee

:16:04. > :16:08.that the mechanics of the international law decision will

:16:09. > :16:12.produce a definite result that the European Court to decide on. No one

:16:13. > :16:17.can say whether or not the European Court would set a treaty change. As

:16:18. > :16:24.a of fact with respect to the question of referendums, there is no

:16:25. > :16:31.guarantee that we will not be referendums. We would have for

:16:32. > :16:36.governments at the moments in the European Union of this great 28

:16:37. > :16:42.states and the political decision-making process who actually

:16:43. > :16:49.barely have control of their government at all. Yet massive

:16:50. > :16:55.problems in Portugal, Spain, and in particular Ireland as well. There

:16:56. > :17:00.are massive problems. Honestly no reason why anybody should guarantee

:17:01. > :17:07.that there'll be a treaty change or it will be irreversible. I happen to

:17:08. > :17:13.take part in other countries, in France, in Denmark, and in other

:17:14. > :17:21.countries on the referendums which produce no votes. So to say, as a

:17:22. > :17:28.matter of absolute certainty in this disgraceful white paper that it is

:17:29. > :17:32.irreversible, what is your is -- impossible as a matter of fact to

:17:33. > :17:35.say that you know what the European Court will do or indeed there will

:17:36. > :17:44.not be a referendum and what the outcome of that will be is simply

:17:45. > :17:48.unacceptable. As it is also the case Mr Speaker that when you read the

:17:49. > :17:52.language of what was a political agreement after rather difficult

:17:53. > :17:57.negotiations and you take something crucially pretensions -- protection

:17:58. > :18:05.of our institutions insist that they can override or circumvent

:18:06. > :18:08.circumstances. I think the British people are waking up to this. I then

:18:09. > :18:13.set in the debate on Thursday last week, Churchill said tell the truth

:18:14. > :18:17.of the British people and they will follow you. They're not being told

:18:18. > :18:26.the truth. That is the real truth. And nothing but the truth. If you

:18:27. > :18:31.look at the pole that was taken on Friday in the evening standard, a

:18:32. > :18:39.very very copperhead the poll of duty voters trust the outcome of

:18:40. > :18:47.this negotiation, well I can tell you because it simply as this. 53%

:18:48. > :18:53.said they did not trust it at all. Only 22% said that they did. As for

:18:54. > :18:59.the balance the also said that half of those are undecided actually

:19:00. > :19:06.tended not to trust it. I know they poll is a poll, but I will say on

:19:07. > :19:10.the question of trust is added to be trusted or not to be trusted. This

:19:11. > :19:14.whole package with you look at it from a political point of view or

:19:15. > :19:21.from a legal point of view is not to be trusted. I didn't the House of

:19:22. > :19:25.Commons because this is where the issues have to be resolved but we

:19:26. > :19:30.have handed it over quite rightly to the voters and they do not trusted.

:19:31. > :19:36.I don't think anything they have heard today from the Minister in the

:19:37. > :19:40.Cabinet office or they will hear tomorrow from the secretaries of the

:19:41. > :19:43.cabinets or indeed any of the other matters which have been discussed in

:19:44. > :19:49.relation to the component parts of this package. Either an aggregate or

:19:50. > :20:01.individually. It gives any reason for anybody to trust this deal. I

:20:02. > :20:07.would say this, the question before the house today about the date of

:20:08. > :20:16.the 23rd of June must be weighed against the background of whether or

:20:17. > :20:19.not it is appropriate. I want to listen to what the Scottish national

:20:20. > :20:22.said because they had a great interest to what they say. They are

:20:23. > :20:27.elected, and they are elected to stand up for their own views and for

:20:28. > :20:31.their own part of the United Kingdom. I may disagree with what

:20:32. > :20:36.they say, but I saw what happens with respect to discuss referendum

:20:37. > :20:42.with regard to the date and length of time really hear about that from

:20:43. > :20:55.them. How they were stitched up by the BBC and etc. This entire

:20:56. > :21:02.question of the date is dependent on what is given to the voter. As to

:21:03. > :21:10.what reliance the voters can have the information that they had been

:21:11. > :21:15.given is transparent and honest. In addition to that is impartial and

:21:16. > :21:18.accurate which is what the Minister for Europe told me on the floor of

:21:19. > :21:26.this House of Commons that it would be. I am very grateful for my

:21:27. > :21:32.Honorable friend for giving way and I rise the expertise in this field

:21:33. > :21:37.with some degree of trepidation. My take is that for most people in this

:21:38. > :21:42.country as a vote of the principle of whether or not to remain in.

:21:43. > :21:45.Rather than the minutia of the detail of the detailed and

:21:46. > :21:50.negotiation. That'll always the case. The fact that my Honorable

:21:51. > :21:54.friend is our you so casually for so long in a referendum should be held

:21:55. > :21:57.on this issue I'm inclined to agree with the front bench that should be

:21:58. > :22:07.held as quickly as possible and that due time after discuss election

:22:08. > :22:09.should be time to do it. It is reasonable Mr Speaker, and my

:22:10. > :22:16.Honorable friend were good enough to read the speech and remarks may be

:22:17. > :22:21.Foreign Secretary, my honourable friend with respect to the question

:22:22. > :22:24.of the whole package he says we don't want to be looking at anything

:22:25. > :22:31.other than the whole package. That is what he says. Read it for

:22:32. > :22:37.yourself. It is very strange that they're going to such lengths the

:22:38. > :22:41.Prime Minister roaming around the country making the speeches, all as

:22:42. > :22:45.information that is been put out. Others this is about the civil

:22:46. > :22:48.service and the guidance and the rest of the matter that I have

:22:49. > :22:53.referred to. Why they're putting so emphasis on it. Why the dominating

:22:54. > :23:03.the airwaves in such a scale and with select paper as they once said

:23:04. > :23:07.to the Honorable Lady Baroness Thatcher when I was invited to

:23:08. > :23:13.London downing street, she asked me when I went to the room and she got

:23:14. > :23:19.back there was buzz of the Cabinet sitting around a table. She said you

:23:20. > :23:24.sit next to me, and she turned and said I brought billet to talk about

:23:25. > :23:33.Europe. Would you feel about Europe, Bill? I said, I think your task is

:23:34. > :23:41.more difficult than church ales's. You'll have to explain this month

:23:42. > :23:50.you? I think Prime Minister, Jorg task... During greater difficulty

:23:51. > :23:54.than church hill for this reason. It is because he was fitted with bombs

:23:55. > :23:58.and aircraft, you are fit the pieces of paper. It is those visa paper I

:23:59. > :24:10.am worried about. I think of ownership is as well. Thank you Mr

:24:11. > :24:17.Speaker. I will address that some of the point that the Honorable member

:24:18. > :24:23.raised. I want to make it clear that opposition on these pages have not

:24:24. > :24:29.changed. Opposites remains consistent and we are still against

:24:30. > :24:35.the 23rd of June referendum date and I will make that clear that our

:24:36. > :24:40.position has a maned unchanged to bite with the Conservatives have

:24:41. > :24:44.said on this issue. If I can pick up the first issue and that is the

:24:45. > :24:57.question of respect which is quite a an important one the member raised

:24:58. > :25:00.an important point when he mentioned of whales in the first ministers of

:25:01. > :25:05.Scotland and Northern Ireland as well. The member for Belfast North

:25:06. > :25:13.and his colleagues to raise this issue as well. The issue that the

:25:14. > :25:18.raised was that this campaign period will overrule lab with the

:25:19. > :25:26.reelection campaign. This is not just raised by the ministers but by

:25:27. > :25:30.chair the electric committee. It will overlap with these periods in

:25:31. > :25:36.the referendum is held on any date in June. The something that the

:25:37. > :25:42.bright honourable friend of my member from Gordon made very clear.

:25:43. > :25:50.If the Minister would like to speak to the whoever takes the Prime

:25:51. > :25:55.ministers mail. When he was misrepresented by the Minister and a

:25:56. > :26:01.number of his colleagues. While assigned up to my ETM 1042 Simon

:26:02. > :26:05.members of parties across his house and coming from his own benches.

:26:06. > :26:13.Giving respect to gender on this particular issue. There is a respect

:26:14. > :26:16.agenda. There is the idea that democracy does not begin and end in

:26:17. > :26:19.this place. We have incredibly important elections coming up in

:26:20. > :26:25.Scotland and Wales, and Northern Ireland's. That's the point that we

:26:26. > :26:29.have made and may consistently. And one of the reasons we will be voting

:26:30. > :26:36.against this today. I would also like to put on before, but would

:26:37. > :26:41.point as well on some practical questions. I am wondering and this

:26:42. > :26:48.relates to the point that was raised. I'm wondering if the

:26:49. > :26:55.Minister will tell us what significant changes have been made

:26:56. > :26:58.as a result of his consultations with the devolved administrations

:26:59. > :27:04.and will he make his correspondence available in the House of Commons

:27:05. > :27:11.library. It was put forward by me honourable friend. It says

:27:12. > :27:19.referendum period begins in the 15th of April 2016, a fortnight before

:27:20. > :27:26.referendum. We also see the first reporting period and on the 21st of

:27:27. > :27:30.April 20 16. The electrode commission on the 28th of April, one

:27:31. > :27:39.week before these crucial elections as well. When he is answering a

:27:40. > :27:43.question about practical differences PS I has as a result of his

:27:44. > :27:48.correspondence he also answered the question about what impact do the

:27:49. > :27:52.rules have on any part of my government that might need to be

:27:53. > :27:59.agreed under the Scotland Act and MIB 28 days before the new First

:28:00. > :28:09.Minister is agreed to. Similar terms for ministers in Wales and Ireland.

:28:10. > :28:16.He says never for him to section seven it is for the devolved

:28:17. > :28:22.administrations... Can you tell us given that he has written this what

:28:23. > :28:25.correspondence he has had with the administrations about that and about

:28:26. > :28:28.the formation of new government and what impact this could possibly have

:28:29. > :28:34.on the publication of the programme for government? In regard to

:28:35. > :28:37.question that was by my honourable friend and a member for Glasgow

:28:38. > :28:43.North as well there are issues of the European Union which will have a

:28:44. > :28:47.significant impact. On the programme for government. Given the issues

:28:48. > :28:54.around agriculture and fisheries as well. It was the UK Government that

:28:55. > :28:58.referred to our fishing industries as expendable and not the European

:28:59. > :28:59.Union. What will happen on other issues which are affected by the

:29:00. > :29:16.European Union the As a veteran of the Scotland Act at

:29:17. > :29:19.the beginning of 1979, does the honourable member recalled the

:29:20. > :29:27.reserve powers? What that might be an issue? -- would that. As usual,

:29:28. > :29:30.the honourable member makes a good point. There are significant powers

:29:31. > :29:35.that sit for the Scottish Parliament, and the same and

:29:36. > :29:40.Northern Ireland and Wales, for the legislation is it serious impact.

:29:41. > :29:44.Also areas like energy, and renewables which is one such power

:29:45. > :29:51.that we arm -- much of line with European partners. On that point,

:29:52. > :29:55.I'd like to address the issues that the Member for Stone raised earlier

:29:56. > :29:58.on, and as usual and informed contribution. I am glad that my

:29:59. > :30:04.right honourable friend has come into the chamber because this is a

:30:05. > :30:08.good time to remind the House but of course he called the independence

:30:09. > :30:14.referendum 545 days before the date of the referendum itself. I shall

:30:15. > :30:20.actually give the Minister some leeway and say that this was not

:30:21. > :30:24.looking for 545 days, but I think that what we need to do is to have

:30:25. > :30:30.the courage of our convictions and to have a proper debate. The

:30:31. > :30:36.honourable Member for Stone and I will not agree on this referendum,

:30:37. > :30:40.I'm not sure that we will do on any referendums. However, one thing that

:30:41. > :30:43.we will agree on is to have a proper debate takes a lot longer than the

:30:44. > :30:48.seven weeks that we are given. We want to have a proper debate that

:30:49. > :30:50.goes to the heart of this issue. As somebody who wants cutlet and the

:30:51. > :30:55.rest of the United Kingdom to remain a part of the European Union, I

:30:56. > :30:58.believe that our case stands up to scrutiny, therefore that side of the

:30:59. > :31:07.House should have the courage of their convictions and put it under

:31:08. > :31:14.appropriate scrutiny. -- Scotland. Actually as I said on the 3rd of

:31:15. > :31:17.February, this issue of immigration which is actually about numbers and

:31:18. > :31:22.the effect on social services, including those in Scotland has now

:31:23. > :31:26.been whittled down to a narrow argument about in the work benefits

:31:27. > :31:28.on which the government wants to go on harping so they can distract

:31:29. > :31:33.attention from the big question which is who governs this country

:31:34. > :31:38.and I were going to be in the second tier of a two-tiered German Europe?

:31:39. > :31:42.Mr Speaker the honourable member was clearly listening to the first

:31:43. > :31:49.Minister .org or Minister of Scotland this morning when she said.

:31:50. > :31:51.I said that people are going to live and work in your country and

:31:52. > :31:56.contribute than they have every right to the same benefits, just as

:31:57. > :32:00.2 million UK citizens including 1 million citizens in Spain benefit

:32:01. > :32:04.from being a part of the European Union. She made this point, and I

:32:05. > :32:08.thought it was a valid point, when we were whittling this debate down

:32:09. > :32:12.to an end work migrant benefits, at the European Council time was given

:32:13. > :32:18.up from discussing the refugee crisis where incidentally Ireland

:32:19. > :32:24.was given weight on its self to discuss this minor issue. On this

:32:25. > :32:28.issue result time being giving away during a European Council to take

:32:29. > :32:37.away from the refugee crisis to discuss, as a member put it, this

:32:38. > :32:41.whittling down. If I may, it had a lot more to do with the Minister

:32:42. > :32:50.trying to to put his -- keep his backbenchers happy. Let's have a

:32:51. > :32:59.proper debate. I will give it to the member on that point. Let's speak

:33:00. > :33:05.carefully. I am intrigued to know when the Scottish Nationalists and

:33:06. > :33:14.the other parties would like to see this referendum held? Not 543 days,

:33:15. > :33:18.I suppose. As a number of us has said, mid-September is often a good

:33:19. > :33:23.time for referendum. It gives you the summer days in which to campaign

:33:24. > :33:27.in to engage. You get to the longer night to knock on people stores as

:33:28. > :33:31.well. You also get people coming out from an organic point of view. I

:33:32. > :33:37.think that mid-September is a good point. The 23rd of June is most

:33:38. > :33:42.certainly not one. Let's give it a little bit of time. I urge all the

:33:43. > :33:47.speakers to listen to the social Democratic case that was put from

:33:48. > :33:51.the first minister's speech. Not that far away from here in John

:33:52. > :33:54.Smith Square. What's look at the issues, and what membership for the

:33:55. > :34:01.European Union does. One less thing I want to say is this, the UK can be

:34:02. > :34:07.successful on its own two feet outside of the European Union. The

:34:08. > :34:10.reject the project scare tactics that do leave for the case of

:34:11. > :34:14.staying in and do nothing for the case of staying out. I hope that we

:34:15. > :34:19.will all be reminded of a 20 point lead that they know can point

:34:20. > :34:23.squandered because of the case that we put it because of the few tactics

:34:24. > :34:27.that were used by the no campaign. I hope that that side of the House

:34:28. > :34:30.will be learning the lessons are not the tequila referendum. On that

:34:31. > :34:40.point I will get to it. Not a minister yet. I for that. I agree

:34:41. > :34:43.with this last point. I know that we are on different sides of this, but

:34:44. > :34:52.I can take them back to that issue of that letter which came. Signed by

:34:53. > :34:55.a first ministers of three home countries all of whom actually had

:34:56. > :34:59.different views on the European Union. Does it not really bring

:35:00. > :35:07.shame to the government that they showed show little respect, the they

:35:08. > :35:15.fear that letter away and imply that it meant absolutely nothing. The

:35:16. > :35:18.honourable Lady and I will find ourselves on the front sides by

:35:19. > :35:23.weight of a respectful debate. She raises a valid point that this was

:35:24. > :35:27.the case raised by three first ministers, and it was agreed by the

:35:28. > :35:31.first Minister in the deputy first minister of Northern Ireland, who as

:35:32. > :35:35.we know don't agree on everything, but managed to come together on this

:35:36. > :35:42.particular issue, and it was a very important point. I want us to have,

:35:43. > :35:53.I will give way. He's making an intelligent speech. Did -- does he

:35:54. > :36:01.catch Newsnight. He said it was all about ramping up the risk. But it's

:36:02. > :36:05.a campaign that we don't want. The honourable member makes a good

:36:06. > :36:11.point. I am hoping, given his track record, that he will not be on our

:36:12. > :36:15.side during the European referendum. The honourable member makes a good

:36:16. > :36:20.point on project here. Let's have a positive case about the economic

:36:21. > :36:27.case, and social benefits. Being an independent Member state. I wonder

:36:28. > :36:33.when the Minister will give us a few more points. Let's have a few

:36:34. > :36:37.pointers. Will there be a special recess or will there, if the

:36:38. > :36:53.Minister thinks he will does. We will advocate this. Before I

:36:54. > :36:58.finalise,... Which is very real, with the honourable gentleman agree

:36:59. > :37:01.that the government should listen to Mervyn King, the former governor of

:37:02. > :37:07.the Bank of England, who said that it is the euro in Europe which is

:37:08. > :37:12.calling this massive problem in Europe making it so dysfunctional

:37:13. > :37:17.with massive unemployment. In fact, the dangers to the UK into Scotland

:37:18. > :37:22.are also dangerous to Europe as a whole, and only to look at the way

:37:23. > :37:27.in which the Germans treated the Greeks and not for that matter

:37:28. > :37:30.opening the doors on immigration and causing dislocation and war barb

:37:31. > :37:36.wire and Europe today than there was during the Cold War? Mr Speaker,

:37:37. > :37:42.when you talk about project here I do think that there has to be on

:37:43. > :37:50.both sides of the debate. As I said, a positive debate about the benefits

:37:51. > :37:54.has come from the environment. From the UK and should be had to have a

:37:55. > :37:57.common set of rules. Think of the benefits and people go on their

:37:58. > :38:07.holidays and archon at the micro-economies. Economies. As a to

:38:08. > :38:15.honourable members, I want to have a positive debate. I ensure we will. I

:38:16. > :38:19.say this finally, which is let us not mistake the fault of the

:38:20. > :38:22.European Union for the faults of the member State. That is something that

:38:23. > :38:25.we know only too well in Scotland. Let's have a positive debate, but

:38:26. > :38:33.let's have an honest debate as well. Hear, hear! Mr Speaker, I welcome an

:38:34. > :38:38.early date for the referendum. I don't know about you, but there is

:38:39. > :38:43.only so much that I can take of all these stories of pestilence and

:38:44. > :38:48.famine that are going to be visited upon us by the very countries that

:38:49. > :38:51.the government says we love and work well with within the European Union

:38:52. > :39:01.that the government has a strained vision that they will sink the

:39:02. > :39:05.change. I personally think 16 weeks will be quite enough to do the job

:39:06. > :39:10.that I would love the government to do which would be to win for release

:39:11. > :39:13.by this very inappropriate tone and by this constantly slinking off

:39:14. > :39:18.about European partners by explaining to us how unpleasant they

:39:19. > :39:21.would be. I would have thought that a government wishing to encourage us

:39:22. > :39:26.to stay in the European Union would want to be more obliging about a

:39:27. > :39:29.European partners, and want to a picture of how things might be

:39:30. > :39:36.better for me to stay and rather than concentrating only on ascribing

:39:37. > :39:39.features to us as far as the lead campaign is concerned. My worry, and

:39:40. > :39:45.why it interjected in this debate, is that I embrace that 16 weeks by

:39:46. > :39:49.not being long enough for them to carry out all the tasks that they

:39:50. > :39:53.need to carry out to the requirements of the legislation. In

:39:54. > :40:00.particular, I have been moved to view by visiting to might honourable

:40:01. > :40:05.friend the Member for Stone. The government has an important duty to

:40:06. > :40:09.provide this impartial information to the public as a part of the task

:40:10. > :40:13.of preparing them for the reprimand them. Having seen their work so far,

:40:14. > :40:18.I am afraid that it fails by all standards. It is not impartial, and

:40:19. > :40:23.is not what was sure the micro-research. It is often

:40:24. > :40:28.exceedingly misleading. I might use richer language were I not inside

:40:29. > :40:31.this house. It does seem to me that the government is going to need more

:40:32. > :40:37.time to work with its officials to come up with balance and mature, and

:40:38. > :40:41.sensible information about what the future might look like on either

:40:42. > :40:49.scenario. One of the things that the government has not had time to

:40:50. > :40:53.prepare on so far, is particularly worrying and what does the future

:40:54. > :40:57.look like if we stay in? We had no response for the government over how

:40:58. > :41:03.deliberate responded to to President's report for the demand

:41:04. > :41:07.for capital markets union, and political unions will be handled by

:41:08. > :41:14.her Majesty's government were we to stay in. But it immediately require

:41:15. > :41:21.us to state -- if each of the next treaty. -- veto.

:41:22. > :41:29.That will affect the United Kingdom. In the spirit of the five presidents

:41:30. > :41:39.reports, bistro triggers after 2017, so after... If we stay in the

:41:40. > :41:41.European Union because they will need to be a referendum under the

:41:42. > :41:55.referendum acts on any treaty changes that are the consequence of

:41:56. > :42:06.the five presidents reports. Has had the opportunity to see the white

:42:07. > :42:10.paper, but not to see the latest of which is described as the process

:42:11. > :42:19.for withdrawing from the European Union which contains page after page

:42:20. > :42:23.of tendentious remarks. The assertions that can't be

:42:24. > :42:26.substantiated. I can see that the Minister for Europe are wriggling

:42:27. > :42:30.around on the front bench, but I had to say that he will not be able to

:42:31. > :42:37.answer these questions because they will be tested and he will be tested

:42:38. > :42:42.before the 23rd of June. Mr Speaker, that is what I was suggesting that

:42:43. > :42:46.the government would like to... I agree with my honourable friend. I

:42:47. > :42:50.was frankly ashamed to read that piece of work coming from the United

:42:51. > :42:54.Kingdom government. They bore no relationship to what the bleep sides

:42:55. > :42:56.are saying on how we would like the government to handle the decision of

:42:57. > :43:01.the British people that they'd effectively. It did not give any

:43:02. > :43:05.credence to the idea that we would be negotiating with friends and

:43:06. > :43:08.allies who have as much interest in successful British accent as we will

:43:09. > :43:15.have should that be the view of the British people. The ministers never

:43:16. > :43:20.seem to understand that the rest of Europe has far more export at risk

:43:21. > :43:25.than we have to the rest of the European Union, because we are in a

:43:26. > :43:27.massive deficit with him. I have personal assurances from the present

:43:28. > :43:33.status and the German government, for example, that they have no wish

:43:34. > :43:35.to see tariffs and barriers in the way of their profitable and

:43:36. > :43:39.successful tailor the United Kingdom. To issue a document

:43:40. > :43:43.implying that there would be all sorts of obstacles put any weight

:43:44. > :43:48.over a 10-year period for a sensible trade is just beggars belief. With

:43:49. > :43:59.my aunt will friends like to take for example -- right honourable

:44:00. > :44:03.friend. That would include objective analysis of national statistics for

:44:04. > :44:06.the House of Commons Library, no such thing is tendentious, and with

:44:07. > :44:15.regard to the specific point that he made when he remember that in fact

:44:16. > :44:19.in relation to current account transactions and ports, exports,

:44:20. > :44:24.goods, and services, we run a deficit with the other 27 Member

:44:25. > :44:28.States of around 58 billion a year in Germany runs a surplus with

:44:29. > :44:32.regard to those same goods and services and ports, and exports. If

:44:33. > :44:43.that is a single market, I am a Dutchman! I am sure my honourable

:44:44. > :44:45.friend... I think that he has just revealed an important fact which is

:44:46. > :44:50.the kind of fact that you would expect to see in a distant micro

:44:51. > :44:54.document stating out the position. I hope that the Minister will leave

:44:55. > :44:59.enough time in his urgent timetable to make sure that those kind of

:45:00. > :45:06.important facts, with references, can be put in front of the British

:45:07. > :45:10.people. Maybe I should not help them as much as I am apparently trying to

:45:11. > :45:13.help him. The government has been rumbled on this. The press, and a

:45:14. > :45:21.lot of the public are saying that we want factual information, we want

:45:22. > :45:25.since a cold information. -- some circle.

:45:26. > :45:35.We witnessed long-term decline of the pound against the dollar for

:45:36. > :45:39.many months now. In the last few days, when Brexit was all in the

:45:40. > :45:42.news, we were told at the pound was going down because of fears of

:45:43. > :45:46.Brexit, where as that was not the case on other days when the pound

:45:47. > :45:50.was going down. On the same days, when the pound had been going down,

:45:51. > :45:54.the government bond market went up. The prices of bonds have been

:45:55. > :46:04.rising, are credit worthiness was assessed as being better. Thoughts

:46:05. > :46:13.of Brexit Brexit, the fear of Brexit was leading to a fall in the pound.

:46:14. > :46:16.I hope that the Minister will consider, and if he wishes to keep

:46:17. > :46:23.up the normal high standards of government documentation and use of

:46:24. > :46:30.impartial civil service advice that we would like to see in this House

:46:31. > :46:32.of Commons, I see a few colleagues. I give these colleagues the benefit

:46:33. > :46:36.of the doubt. I certainly have seen many documents from the government

:46:37. > :46:41.that achieve high standards than the ones that we haven't talked about on

:46:42. > :46:49.this matter. I urge the Minister to make sure that he needs time in this

:46:50. > :46:52.action-packed timetable to produce high-quality information which

:46:53. > :46:59.produces a balanced version, the risks of staying in, and what he

:47:00. > :47:06.sees as the risks of leaving. On Sunday night, they should point out

:47:07. > :47:09.that if we stop paying the ten billion and contributions, money we

:47:10. > :47:12.don't get asked, that mutually improves the balance of payments and

:47:13. > :47:17.neck share by one fifth. Isn't that a marvellous advantage that we would

:47:18. > :47:24.have. I don't see that at the moment in a material coming out. I think he

:47:25. > :47:27.makes a huge and powerful argument, but he answer is quite simple. They

:47:28. > :47:31.don't want the facts in there. They don't want the British public tuna.

:47:32. > :47:37.That is the conclusion that the British public are going to come to.

:47:38. > :47:41.I hear that is right. I fear that I'm beginning to give the government

:47:42. > :47:43.too much up, and I'd like to see them lose on this particular

:47:44. > :47:48.occasion because I do think that we would be so much better off. I will

:47:49. > :47:54.vote with the government on this issue because I think that 16 weeks

:47:55. > :47:57.is quite enough for project fear. 16 weeks is enough of misrepresenting

:47:58. > :48:02.other things going on in saying that these are the results of fears of

:48:03. > :48:07.Brexit, and do the jobs that I will like them to do and help the kid

:48:08. > :48:12.that I am trying to make. To meet the legal requirements based on the

:48:13. > :48:16.government to provide impartial information they have a long way to

:48:17. > :48:26.go, and I just trusted the next few weeks they can lift their game.

:48:27. > :48:30.Thank you Mr Speaker. We will be supporting this SI was as the

:48:31. > :48:35.Minister says put in place a referendum for the 23rd of June. He

:48:36. > :48:50.will know that the Coalition to register legislated... To trigger a

:48:51. > :48:56.referendum. We are where we are now. I am happy to give way. I am

:48:57. > :49:00.wondering whether in fact he is thinking that the older gentleman is

:49:01. > :49:06.thinking that the referendum act of 2011 which many of us oppose for

:49:07. > :49:12.also serve region should in fact be civilian or appealed any

:49:13. > :49:15.circumstances. I think that we have a referendum that is ahead of us. I

:49:16. > :49:19.suggest that we get onto that before looking at whether to make any

:49:20. > :49:24.changes to that act. The support they referendum on the 23rd of June.

:49:25. > :49:28.I must say that I have been in his house for some time, longer than

:49:29. > :49:34.some, not as long as others. It does into me as though in this house and

:49:35. > :49:38.indeed this house, in recent general elections we have had a very full

:49:39. > :49:42.debate about the European Union and whether we should or should not be

:49:43. > :49:49.members of it. As I said in an earlier intervention, there are

:49:50. > :49:55.certainly no confusion in the mind of elections between the assembly

:49:56. > :50:01.alleges that are taking place in May and the EU referendum that is going

:50:02. > :50:06.to take place in presumably on the 23rd of June. What is clear is that

:50:07. > :50:09.it is clear that for the political parties in the campaign is, it does

:50:10. > :50:20.make it more difficult if one election follows on so quickly after

:50:21. > :50:25.another. I am happy to give away. I take the point that he is making. Is

:50:26. > :50:32.he a waiter that the leader of the Democrats in Wales that the vote

:50:33. > :50:36.should be moved from June the 23rd? I am aware. I suppose that that is

:50:37. > :50:41.one of the consequences of devolution. People in different

:50:42. > :50:49.bases adopt different efficiencies. In relation to the S, I and many

:50:50. > :50:54.others are rather suspicious of their motives. Is this about

:50:55. > :50:58.delaying the referendum for the reasons that have at all, or is this

:50:59. > :51:01.actually about increasing the chances of the UK might actually

:51:02. > :51:08.vote to come out of the European Union to facilitate their campaign

:51:09. > :51:14.for holding a second referendum. In relation to splits within parties, I

:51:15. > :51:30.must say that there does appear to be a split within the SNP. From the

:51:31. > :51:37.SNP members prop Dunn President is all about procedure and nothing at

:51:38. > :51:49.all about the positive nature of what we are. Who should I give way

:51:50. > :51:54.to first? Can the honourable gentlemen... Exhibit distinct in the

:51:55. > :52:00.European union that the Liberal Democrats. That is the Liberal

:52:01. > :52:10.Democrat position? The Liberal Democrat position is that... They

:52:11. > :52:15.should be reunited by the campaign and actually start campaigning from

:52:16. > :52:21.a positive perspective. But also the Labour Party who I think really

:52:22. > :52:26.needs to perhaps spend some time with the leader of the Labour

:52:27. > :52:30.campaign and really get some of the enthusiasm, draw some of the

:52:31. > :52:33.enthusiasm from him so that he can really put his back into this to

:52:34. > :52:40.ensure that we went on the 23rd of June. On the point of suspicious

:52:41. > :52:46.intentions, can I remind the honourable member that he campaigned

:52:47. > :52:49.with the conservative party in the Labour Party in Scotland telling the

:52:50. > :52:54.people of Scotland that if they voted no to the Scottish referendum

:52:55. > :52:59.that they would be guaranteed to remain in the European Union. To ask

:53:00. > :53:03.him what his opinion is on I am confident that if we have a united

:53:04. > :53:10.front from the SNP campaign positively on the matter from the

:53:11. > :53:14.Labour Party from the prime minister that has after I requested to come

:53:15. > :53:20.out forcefully behind the EU referendum campaign in support of

:53:21. > :53:26.staying in. We will collectively win the campaign. I look forward to

:53:27. > :53:32.doing that. As I said, I think that we do need to get on with the

:53:33. > :53:34.campaign. This campaign is actually about the peace, prosperity,

:53:35. > :53:40.opportunity, and security that we derive from being members of GE you.

:53:41. > :53:47.It is not in fact about projects fear at all. If the party opposite

:53:48. > :53:52.workbenches in front of me referred to project fear, I would say that in

:53:53. > :53:56.the opposite benches there are quite a degree of Project whitewash or

:53:57. > :54:02.project status quo. If you elected to be on that point... I am so glad

:54:03. > :54:07.that the honourable gentleman has deferred to project status quo. If

:54:08. > :54:09.you look at the position, I'm sure that the honourable gentleman will

:54:10. > :54:15.except that virtually nothing has changed and respect to the change

:54:16. > :54:19.under ever closer union or one word of any treaty, or one word of any

:54:20. > :54:24.ball in relation to the European Union. Would he be good enough,

:54:25. > :54:29.therefore, to say that he agrees with us that there should be proper

:54:30. > :54:32.published, impartial and the made for market information, and that the

:54:33. > :54:38.current documents don't cut the mustard? I will agree with him on

:54:39. > :54:42.the fact that there is a project status quo, but I think that he

:54:43. > :54:46.missed understood the point that I was making. There are people on his

:54:47. > :54:49.site he would like us to come out of the European Union to seem too

:54:50. > :54:53.claimed repeatedly that if we come out, the basis on which we will be

:54:54. > :54:57.able to trade with the European Union is unchanged. There is no

:54:58. > :55:00.change. It is exactly the same. We look at exactly the same terms

:55:01. > :55:05.whether we are in our whether we are out. That is what refers to project

:55:06. > :55:11.status quo. I am happy to way. On the point that has been made by

:55:12. > :55:17.other honourable members, we have budgeted get sick trade deficit.

:55:18. > :55:24.Germany is not going to play games with as entree. -- on trade. I am

:55:25. > :55:33.pleased that the honourable gentleman can read for it seven

:55:34. > :55:38.years ahead in terms of what the arrangement will be in the future

:55:39. > :55:46.between the UK and the EU -- if the UK were to be. I can't do that, but

:55:47. > :55:49.clearly he is clairvoyant. There is just one further serious point that

:55:50. > :55:55.I want to put to the Minister. That is the question of whether the

:55:56. > :55:59.Minister is confident that the electoral commission in the police

:56:00. > :56:03.will have the resources and tools to ensure that the rules around

:56:04. > :56:15.expenditure in relation to this campaign will be observed. She will

:56:16. > :56:23.be aware I'm sure that in a recent exchange. The member referred to the

:56:24. > :56:33.vote lead campaign, and this is what he said. It is open to the boat leaf

:56:34. > :56:39.family to create separate legal entities. Bass boat leave. They

:56:40. > :56:44.would be able to spend as much money as necessary. I hope that he will

:56:45. > :56:50.build to confirm that my memory of being a minister in being involved