03/03/2016

:00:00. > :00:00.and I feel sure she will use the I have suggested to try to secure

:00:00. > :00:09.satisfaction. If not, no doubt, we will hear from her again. If there

:00:10. > :00:16.are no further points of order, we come now to the backbench debate on

:00:17. > :00:27.gangs and serious youth violence. To move the motion,... Before I start,

:00:28. > :00:31.I would like to say how grateful I am to the Backbench Business

:00:32. > :00:38.Committee for granting this very important debate today. I am also

:00:39. > :00:39.grateful to the 19 other members of the house who supported this

:00:40. > :00:45.application, in particular, I have worked with the honourable members

:00:46. > :00:50.for louche and Deptford, Croydon North and others on several years of

:00:51. > :00:57.these issues. The issues we are discussing how difficult, they are

:00:58. > :01:03.not easy, there is no single cause further violence we have seen, nor

:01:04. > :01:08.one single solution, and what we are seeing on the streets of our country

:01:09. > :01:16.is leading to a senseless loss of lives. That perhaps explains why the

:01:17. > :01:23.digital debate, which the House of Commons digital team organised on

:01:24. > :01:27.Twitter ahead of this debate, was the House of Commons' most

:01:28. > :01:29.successful Twitter debate, in terms of the number of accounts, or for

:01:30. > :01:42.reached. It is important that we acknowledge

:01:43. > :01:49.that are young people are amongst the very best in the world. Their

:01:50. > :01:56.creativity knows no bounds. Their energy is infectious. They put the

:01:57. > :02:01.great in Great Britain. They give us confidence in our future being even

:02:02. > :02:04.better than our glorious past. It is also important to note when

:02:05. > :02:10.discussing these issues that the violence we are talking about is

:02:11. > :02:13.committed by a minority but a significant minority, but a minority

:02:14. > :02:18.nonetheless, after young people. So we should not draw the conclusion

:02:19. > :02:25.that all of Britain's youth are engaged in serious youth violence. I

:02:26. > :02:28.say this because too often the youth of our country are demonised. They

:02:29. > :02:36.are demonised to often in our national media and I do not want to

:02:37. > :02:41.add to that today so it is important during our debate to recognise how

:02:42. > :02:47.wonderful our young people are and to celebrate them. And it is because

:02:48. > :02:53.we care so much for them and we don't want to see their talent and

:02:54. > :02:57.futures wasted that we are holding this debate today. In 2007, the

:02:58. > :03:01.violence in different communities in urban city centres in particular

:03:02. > :03:09.across our country was put into sharp relief in broad daylight by

:03:10. > :03:18.the stabbing, sorry, the shooting, of a young man in my constituency at

:03:19. > :03:22.Streatham ice rink. To this day, no one has been charged with his murder

:03:23. > :03:26.but his mother continues to fight for justice and is now working to

:03:27. > :03:32.prevent other families going through what she and her family have gone

:03:33. > :03:36.through through a foundation. Tracey Ford has voiced her strong support

:03:37. > :03:41.for this debate today. She is joined by many other parents, families of

:03:42. > :03:48.victims like Richard Taylor, for example, the father of the young boy

:03:49. > :03:56.who was also lost to this violence. He set up a trust to celebrate our

:03:57. > :04:02.young people. We pay tribute to all of them. And all of those working to

:04:03. > :04:06.better the lives of young people. What followed from the deaf in my

:04:07. > :04:15.constituency in 2007 was a catalogue of tragedy with 2019 ages losing

:04:16. > :04:19.their lives to this in London alone in 2008. -- from the deaf in my

:04:20. > :04:25.constituency. The number has abated since that time but the problem has

:04:26. > :04:31.never gone away. Following falls between 2009 and 2012, we have seen

:04:32. > :04:36.the number of serious youth violence offences in London increased by

:04:37. > :04:41.13.4% and the number of offences the Met tags with its kind violence

:04:42. > :04:48.indicator measures increasing by 25% over 25%, since 2012. A lot of this

:04:49. > :04:56.goes unreported. You go to any eight and EMP kind -- in the kind -- you

:04:57. > :04:59.go to any eight and E in the kind of communities I am talking about and

:05:00. > :05:05.they talk about incidents which do not feature in the figures.

:05:06. > :05:09.According to a non-for-profit organisation which collect data on

:05:10. > :05:13.this issue in different areas, 17 teenagers lost their lives to this

:05:14. > :05:21.violence last year, up from 11 in 2014. Just two weeks ago, I was

:05:22. > :05:24.notified by police of gun shots being fired on a Friday in a

:05:25. > :05:29.location in the north of my constituency. On the Saturday after

:05:30. > :05:32.there was a multiple stabbing of a young man in the south of my

:05:33. > :05:36.constituency. And then just outside my constituency on the Sunday after

:05:37. > :05:43.that Saturday, there was a drive-by shooting. I will give way shortly.

:05:44. > :05:47.On Monday this week at 530 in the afternoon, a teenager was stabbed in

:05:48. > :05:55.the north of my borough after a fight at a chicken shop. And so it

:05:56. > :05:59.goes on. I give way. But I also congratulate him on securing this

:06:00. > :06:05.important debate? I am pleased we have been granted three hours to

:06:06. > :06:11.debate this crucial issue. Does he agree with me that there are far too

:06:12. > :06:15.many firearms in circulation in London where previously perhaps a

:06:16. > :06:20.fist or dare I say a knife will now be replaced by a very large gun? And

:06:21. > :06:25.increasingly sophisticated firearms are being used, which make the

:06:26. > :06:32.situation even more difficult to manage? I completely agree. I wrote

:06:33. > :06:38.an article when I was a trustee of a Brixton youth charity in 2007 about

:06:39. > :06:42.the availability of guns and knives, and I did a kind of focus group with

:06:43. > :06:47.some of the young people in our area. What shocked me was the level

:06:48. > :06:56.of detail that some of our young people were able to give me in terms

:06:57. > :06:59.of guns. They could tell me how many bullets different guns could spray

:07:00. > :07:04.in a minute or a second. My honourable friend is right to raise

:07:05. > :07:09.that as an issue. She also made mention that this is not just a

:07:10. > :07:14.London thing. This situation is serious and it is currently getting

:07:15. > :07:20.worse. And it is not confined to London. Last Sunday, a teenager was

:07:21. > :07:26.stabbed in Bristol. We hear of this happening all over the UK. I will

:07:27. > :07:32.give way to the honourable gentleman. I thank him for giving

:07:33. > :07:37.way. One of the things that I have seen in my constituency of Yeovil

:07:38. > :07:43.recently is the impact of large city drug crime moving into the regional

:07:44. > :07:47.towns. And I'm very concerned to make sure that a them and Somerset

:07:48. > :07:53.police actually devote enough resource away from the big cities

:07:54. > :07:58.like Bristol to being able to combat that because what I don't want to

:07:59. > :08:04.see happen is that to deteriorate into violent crime which thankfully

:08:05. > :08:08.we haven't yet really seen, but what the honourable gentleman is saying

:08:09. > :08:14.about the increase in London is a worry, and in Bristol. I am grateful

:08:15. > :08:17.to him for his intervention and I think his intervention highlights,

:08:18. > :08:22.and this will come through through the rest of our debate, the way in

:08:23. > :08:27.which... That our whole suite of issues which hangs heavy over this

:08:28. > :08:32.debate and of course the drug trade hangs heavy over this entire

:08:33. > :08:39.dialogue that we are having today. I want to say something about the

:08:40. > :08:43.title of this debate, and in some senses, I put in using the word

:08:44. > :08:49.ganged quite deliberately because we need to talk about the use of this

:08:50. > :08:53.term. We refer to youth violence and gang or gang-related violence very

:08:54. > :08:57.often but I do think it is pertinent to ask the question whether we

:08:58. > :09:04.should be using the word ganged at all, in spite of the title of the

:09:05. > :09:09.fate that we have. Ian Joseph, watching this from the gallery, at

:09:10. > :09:14.Middlesex University, has done some interesting work in this area and he

:09:15. > :09:18.argues that the official definition of a gang distorts the focus of

:09:19. > :09:21.interventions and promote an understanding of everyday behaviour

:09:22. > :09:26.that does little to permanently avert young people from the real

:09:27. > :09:32.causes of violence. He argues that to be effective, interventions must

:09:33. > :09:39.give greater account of how cultural norms and social processes impact

:09:40. > :09:41.young people'sfriendships and the local neighbourhood -based

:09:42. > :09:45.relationships that they have. This is backed up by others. The Centre

:09:46. > :09:51.for Cronulla Justice studies has also questioned whether we should be

:09:52. > :09:56.using this term. -- Criminal Justice Studies. I wonder if by using this

:09:57. > :10:01.term and labelling young people as gang members, we reinforce this

:10:02. > :10:09.notion that they are a gangster. I mean, what is a gangster? So

:10:10. > :10:16.should... I wonder how helpful it is for us to be using this term, and

:10:17. > :10:20.let's face it, using this term also enables officialdom to put all these

:10:21. > :10:24.young people in a bracket. Oh, they are part of a gang. If they lose

:10:25. > :10:28.their lives, that doesn't matter, they are part of the gang. I am not

:10:29. > :10:39.sure we should be allowing this to carry on. I will give way. I do not

:10:40. > :10:44.know if my honourable friend is familiar with the work of Harriet

:10:45. > :10:49.Sergeant, a journalist who has gone to great trouble to engage with gang

:10:50. > :10:54.members in this underclass, perhaps gang is the wrong word, but one

:10:55. > :11:00.comes out from reading books and articles on this matter with

:11:01. > :11:06.profound feeling of regret at the Gulf of misunderstanding between the

:11:07. > :11:10.bodies, the official bodies, and those who are in part of this

:11:11. > :11:17.underclass themselves. And great sympathy for the problems involved

:11:18. > :11:23.and the depth of suffering by these gangs who are, I am afraid, in my

:11:24. > :11:32.and her view, been very badly neglected. I am grateful for the

:11:33. > :11:36.intervention. I am grateful to him for referring to her work and

:11:37. > :11:41.hopefully those watching using the hashtag can post a link so those

:11:42. > :11:45.watching can read more of her work. I am not sure how helpful it is to

:11:46. > :11:52.use his word any more because just in my horror, things have changed a

:11:53. > :11:56.lot. When I was first elected in 2010, we had large groups of young

:11:57. > :12:01.people who had labels for their groupings. -- just in my borough.

:12:02. > :12:05.Now the situation is more parochial, often confined to a particular

:12:06. > :12:08.state, and you have much smaller groups of young people, so the

:12:09. > :12:16.situation is far more fluid, too. The CEO of Project 507, also

:12:17. > :12:19.watching here today, works to prevent young people from engaging

:12:20. > :12:23.in this kind of violence. She said to me and put it really well, we

:12:24. > :12:28.give them that label but we never give them a way to get rid of it. We

:12:29. > :12:33.give them that label but we never give our young people a way to get

:12:34. > :12:40.rid of this gang label. Senators consign it to the bin and not refer

:12:41. > :12:46.to it again. -- so letters consign it to the bin. The reasons for

:12:47. > :12:49.serious youth violence, it is not new. We know what so many of the

:12:50. > :12:52.reasons are and yes, some of the violence is carried out by young

:12:53. > :12:59.people from dysfunctional, often chaotic families with a history of

:13:00. > :13:04.domestic violence in the background. But very often, a lot of young

:13:05. > :13:07.people who get wrapped up in this come from quite stable families.

:13:08. > :13:10.Sometimes there is an issue there because you might have two parents

:13:11. > :13:15.who are just struggling to make ends meet, holding down two jobs to pay

:13:16. > :13:19.the bills, and then of course there is a link to that because often, I

:13:20. > :13:25.was hearing from some young people this morning there is a desire to

:13:26. > :13:29.help provide for your family, help provide for your man, and you end up

:13:30. > :13:34.getting wrapped up in this kind of activity as a way of making money.

:13:35. > :13:39.-- help provide for your mother. The usual suspects in the media start

:13:40. > :13:42.saying, you are excusing this. We are not providing excuses today but

:13:43. > :13:46.unless we actually look at why this is happening, we will not be able to

:13:47. > :13:52.stop it from happening. I can see the headlines, MP says children are

:13:53. > :13:56.trying to help pay bills so they go and live people. I'm saying let's go

:13:57. > :14:05.and understand the underlying reasons for this if we want to stop

:14:06. > :14:13.the violence from happening. I thank him for making a very good speech on

:14:14. > :14:22.this subject. Is not fear the real reason why people join groups? If

:14:23. > :14:27.you are a young person living on an estate in an area where these groups

:14:28. > :14:35.operate, and you are not a member of that group, you would be very

:14:36. > :14:40.fearful that this group would set upon you and do you great damage,

:14:41. > :14:45.and in my view, in my limited understanding of this problem, it

:14:46. > :14:53.seems to me that fear is the spur for young people to join such

:14:54. > :14:58.groups. I think the honourable gentleman has made a very important

:14:59. > :15:03.intervention. I agree with him. I think this is a major factor and I

:15:04. > :15:07.will come onto it very shortly. Fear definitely, definitely plays a role

:15:08. > :15:14.in this, as does trauma, and I will come onto that, too. One of the

:15:15. > :15:20.common things, and me and my honourable friend for Tottenham have

:15:21. > :15:24.talked about this, as has the honourable member for Westminster

:15:25. > :15:28.North. We always hear, time and time again, at every community meeting

:15:29. > :15:31.you go to on this issue, how there are simply not enough young things

:15:32. > :15:40.for -- things for our young people to do. I get fed up of saying this,

:15:41. > :15:46.but nothing ever seems to get done about it. We have got to ensure that

:15:47. > :15:50.outside of school hours, there are more meaningful things for our young

:15:51. > :15:54.people to do, and I am not talking about some windy church hall with a

:15:55. > :15:59.table tennis table. We need decent, proper things which will expand our

:16:00. > :16:04.young people'shorizons and give them things they will enjoy giving in

:16:05. > :16:08.their local areas. Because otherwise, you have this other

:16:09. > :16:16.problem where the collectives of your peers become your selected

:16:17. > :16:19.family, and that does take me to the issue that the honourable gentleman

:16:20. > :16:23.was talking about, but first I want to go through some of the other

:16:24. > :16:28.factors. Popular culture. I think it is too easy to blame rap music or

:16:29. > :16:31.whatever. I actually think it is a society thing. We live in our

:16:32. > :16:36.society that promotes and glamorises violence.

:16:37. > :16:43.It is too easy to say it is the fault of the creative industries. We

:16:44. > :16:49.let this go on and we have got to deal with it. We've creasing we have

:16:50. > :16:52.a society where young people are encouraged to engage in violent

:16:53. > :16:58.activities. It was promoted amongst us and we have to deal with that.

:16:59. > :17:03.There is another thing here, which is a consumerism thing, as well.

:17:04. > :17:08.Undoubtedly, helping your family to get on is definitely an issue, but

:17:09. > :17:14.I'll so think we live in the society, which promotes and

:17:15. > :17:19.glamorises violence, but also promotes this idea that we have our

:17:20. > :17:23.young people to define themselves by what they have as opposed to who

:17:24. > :17:30.they are. And I think that is a major problem as well. I will give

:17:31. > :17:36.way. Would he acknowledge the role, not just in providing for one's

:17:37. > :17:41.family, but as he rightly says, the desire to have things, and the role

:17:42. > :17:46.of criminal gangs in offering young people quick money to be able to buy

:17:47. > :17:53.those things that, because of their low income, they're not otherwise

:17:54. > :17:54.able to have? There are so many big elephants in this

:17:55. > :18:02.room of issues, but one is poverty and deprivation. You cannot ignore

:18:03. > :18:08.the part that this plays. And what you end up with, and he is right to

:18:09. > :18:12.raise this, is that you end up with this cycle of violence, where you

:18:13. > :18:16.have young people who don't have anything, often robbing from other

:18:17. > :18:21.young people who don't have anything. Then there is revenge and

:18:22. > :18:26.then you get this cycle of violence. That definitely is part of this

:18:27. > :18:30.thing that we see happening. Part of the reason that too many of our

:18:31. > :18:36.young people do not have enough money, is because of the rates of

:18:37. > :18:43.unemployment among our young people. We have an education system which is

:18:44. > :18:49.producing a generation who don't always have the skills that are

:18:50. > :18:53.employers need, particularly their technical and vocational skills that

:18:54. > :18:57.are employers need, so in the schools ecosystem and that is

:18:58. > :19:02.happened under governments of all persuasions, and I don't see this as

:19:03. > :19:06.a party political issue, and not interested in scoring points. But we

:19:07. > :19:09.do have to deal with the school system that is not getting our young

:19:10. > :19:16.people that they need, that employers need, that they need to

:19:17. > :19:22.get a job. Let's not forget, youth unemployment is double the main

:19:23. > :19:26.rates. The things I talked about are fairly obvious. But I think we

:19:27. > :19:35.needed to delve far deeper into the causes than we have. This goes to

:19:36. > :19:40.the point that he was making. Which is this belief among many young

:19:41. > :19:46.people that they are safer in a group than they are on their own.

:19:47. > :19:51.This perceived need for safety and protection, as academics have

:19:52. > :19:57.argued, tens to validate behaviour and levels of violence in ways that

:19:58. > :20:04.can obscure the boundary between right and wrong, bullying being

:20:05. > :20:10.bullied and how this into relates with carrying by using a weapon. We

:20:11. > :20:18.don't like to talk about this. We should. You have this semi - formal,

:20:19. > :20:22.often unsupervised daily routine outside of school, but sometimes

:20:23. > :20:26.inside of school, that can incubate the production of the kind of

:20:27. > :20:32.behaviours and values that lead to the kind of violence we are talking

:20:33. > :20:37.about, and juxtapose expected norms of school and wider mainstream

:20:38. > :20:43.society against the life that leads to this kind of violence. The second

:20:44. > :20:48.issue, in addition to the fear he was talking about, is the trauma,

:20:49. > :20:54.this year, that many of our young people experience in their daily

:20:55. > :21:03.lives, which requires much greater consideration than you see reported

:21:04. > :21:08.in our media. This issue, as I mentioned earlier, needs to be seen

:21:09. > :21:14.not just as the violence prevention issue, but as a health issue, in

:21:15. > :21:18.mental health issue. When you look at some of the experiences of our

:21:19. > :21:24.young people have, this is traumatising them. They have huge

:21:25. > :21:28.amounts of trauma that they are given no support, no support to deal

:21:29. > :21:35.with. And unless we start engaging, not only at the level of the

:21:36. > :21:38.obvious, but the level, this deeper level issues, then we are not going

:21:39. > :21:45.to be able to resolve the violence we see on our streets. So what

:21:46. > :21:49.should be done? Labour in government introduced the notion that every

:21:50. > :21:52.child matters, we had a strategic aim to provide wraparound care for

:21:53. > :21:58.young people from long before they went to school to long after they

:21:59. > :22:05.left school. That did bring in teenagers, but I think we need to

:22:06. > :22:14.adopt an approach that is every teenager matters. Although it has to

:22:15. > :22:21.be said, and this is something that was said earlier, we are seeing this

:22:22. > :22:25.impact in younger and younger children, not just teenagers.

:22:26. > :22:29.Secondly, I think we've got to elevate the standing of youth work

:22:30. > :22:34.in our country. It's about time we put it on the same pedestal of

:22:35. > :22:36.teaching. Yet often youth workers spend as much time with our young

:22:37. > :22:41.people as teachers, but we don't talk about that occupational

:22:42. > :22:47.profession in the same way. We have got to do so, we have to put it on a

:22:48. > :22:52.pedestal and we can't just look at it as an add on. Too often, youth

:22:53. > :22:57.workers left other people who have other jobs in their lives, providing

:22:58. > :23:01.youth work on top of the daily job. We need to properly fund this, so

:23:02. > :23:07.people can do youth work full time and we regard our youth workers in

:23:08. > :23:11.the same way with regard teachers. Thirdly, I do believe the government

:23:12. > :23:24.has done some good things on this and that's why want to see them

:23:25. > :23:28.disband at -- reversed the decision to disband the network that was

:23:29. > :23:32.helping. I think it was a good network, I have had very good

:23:33. > :23:37.feedback about it, from all over the country, including Lambeth and I

:23:38. > :23:41.would like to see it continue. Fourthly, I fit with got to make

:23:42. > :23:46.sure our young are properly taught in schools about the consequences of

:23:47. > :23:50.what they and provided with support for the experiences outside of

:23:51. > :23:53.school. I would like to see us get more role models, more people who

:23:54. > :23:57.have been through and been part of these groups and maybe been victims

:23:58. > :24:03.are perpetrated acts of violence and then suffered consequences. And like

:24:04. > :24:06.the one of them going into our schools and telling their story, so

:24:07. > :24:11.that the future generations don't take the wrong turn that they did.

:24:12. > :24:15.There's nothing like having somebody who has been through it, who has

:24:16. > :24:19.lived that life, telling you what will happen if you carry on down

:24:20. > :24:25.that avenue. We need to provide much more support to schools and being

:24:26. > :24:28.able to do that. This is quite controversial, but I'm going to see

:24:29. > :24:34.it anyway. A lot of the young people who get wrapped up in all of this,

:24:35. > :24:37.alternately have quite commercial and entrepreneurial instincts. But

:24:38. > :24:43.that energy they have is simply not channelled in the right way at all,

:24:44. > :24:49.with the result that they turn to criminality, they turn to highly

:24:50. > :24:53.illegitimate, terrible ways of doing things. Perhaps if we had more

:24:54. > :24:56.enterprise teaching in our schools, perhaps of setting up your own

:24:57. > :24:59.business and doing your own thing and working for yourself in a way

:25:00. > :25:05.that would deliver the goods and deliver you some money, if many of

:25:06. > :25:09.our young people were provided with inspiration, more access to these

:25:10. > :25:15.kinds of opportunities, then perhaps we'd be able to stop them taking a

:25:16. > :25:19.wrong turn. I can see the write-up, MPs says gangsters should start up

:25:20. > :25:22.businesses. Frankly, I don't care, because I want to make sure they

:25:23. > :25:31.don't end up taking the wrong turn and doing illegitimate business. If

:25:32. > :25:35.they have that instinct, I'd like to see them go and set up a business.

:25:36. > :25:40.I'd like to see them going on to be the next Richard Branson. I give

:25:41. > :25:46.way. That's a very important point, but would he agree with me that the

:25:47. > :25:49.Evening Standard campaign is to be congratulated, because of the work

:25:50. > :25:54.they've been doing in supporting people to turn away from gang crimes

:25:55. > :25:58.is precisely what he is recommending, which is turning their

:25:59. > :26:04.skills into business and making sure they are unable to make something

:26:05. > :26:09.better of the lives. I completely agree and I think the work the

:26:10. > :26:12.Evening Standard has done with its campaign has been excellent. They

:26:13. > :26:17.have plastered this on the front page frequently and I would like to

:26:18. > :26:22.see other publications and media outlets following their example. One

:26:23. > :26:26.thing I should say finally, obviously, none of us here today are

:26:27. > :26:30.going to excusable when we see it being done. None of us are excusing

:26:31. > :26:34.the violence we see and none of us would argue that if you commit these

:26:35. > :26:39.kinds of offences, but there should not be sanctions. Of course there

:26:40. > :26:43.should be sanctions, but I suppose the point of no one is going to make

:26:44. > :26:47.today is, if we can make sure we prevent people from doing things in

:26:48. > :26:53.the first place, then we would have to apply those sanctions as we do.

:26:54. > :26:58.Too often, the debate is on clamping down, zero tolerance, banging them

:26:59. > :27:02.up, when actually, it is harder to focus on how do we prevent them

:27:03. > :27:06.doing it in the first place. And that is ultimately why I would like

:27:07. > :27:14.to see the government set up an independent cross - party commission

:27:15. > :27:16.into these issues, involving a wide-ranging consultation,

:27:17. > :27:20.importantly including young people. Too often, we are talking about

:27:21. > :27:25.them, but they are not at the table as we do so. I would like to see

:27:26. > :27:29.that consultation identify the root causes, effects and solutions to

:27:30. > :27:37.this youth violence, so we don't see more death on our streets. Finally,

:27:38. > :27:40.I think we should be honest and upfront about this. If we were

:27:41. > :27:45.talking about predominantly middle-class children from

:27:46. > :27:49.comfortable, middle income families from wealthy neighbourhoods, this

:27:50. > :27:56.issue would be much higher up the national agenda. If you had the

:27:57. > :27:59.murder of young people by other young people, fitting that middle

:28:00. > :28:06.income demographic and talking about, it would, and many many more

:28:07. > :28:12.column inches. I think it is a disgrace, I think it is a damning

:28:13. > :28:15.indictment of our society, that increasingly, our society is

:28:16. > :28:19.becoming immune to what is happening on our doorsteps, and it is ignoring

:28:20. > :28:22.an issue and putting a whole generation of young people into a

:28:23. > :28:27.corner and saying, that's what happens with those kind of young

:28:28. > :28:32.people from those kind of videos. I want to be very clear in having this

:28:33. > :28:35.debate today that this House of Commons recognises that it doesn't

:28:36. > :28:39.matter what your background is, whether you're growing up in a

:28:40. > :28:44.comfortable neighbourhood or an estate, every single young life

:28:45. > :28:48.matters, and we will not stand by while we continue to see violence

:28:49. > :28:58.and fatalities hitting the next Generation, because they are our

:28:59. > :29:03.future. Firstly, may I congratulate him for securing this debate on this

:29:04. > :29:08.most important of issues. I think he gave a very powerful and articulate

:29:09. > :29:14.speech. 188 people were killed with a knife last year, 119 sexual

:29:15. > :29:22.assaults last year that the point of a knife. Attempted murders and

:29:23. > :29:27.threats to kill with a knife as well. Thousands of Britons have

:29:28. > :29:32.feared for their lives through stabbing. When I was elected in May

:29:33. > :29:37.of last year, I pledged to residents in my constituency I would do all I

:29:38. > :29:41.could just tackle the scourge of knife crime. Colchester has seen too

:29:42. > :29:53.many young lives involving weapons destroyed. Each one a personal

:29:54. > :30:00.tragedy. It is still the case that too many people, and in particular,

:30:01. > :30:04.are young people, still feel it is acceptable to carry blades and

:30:05. > :30:08.knives. They wrongly believe it will keep them safe. Let us be clear,

:30:09. > :30:18.carrying a knife does not keep you safe. It is illegal, it puts you and

:30:19. > :30:24.others in grave danger. I believe that some people carry weapons like

:30:25. > :30:32.that because they feel it gives them status. He makes a very valid point

:30:33. > :30:37.and I think he's absolutely right. There are many reasons why young

:30:38. > :30:42.people carry blades. Sometimes it's in relation to fear, sometimes it's

:30:43. > :30:46.status symbol. But the message we have to hammer home, not only is it

:30:47. > :30:50.illegal, statistically you are far more likely to be the victim of a

:30:51. > :30:54.knife crime if you're carrying a knife yourself, and we need to get

:30:55. > :30:59.that message out there loud and clear. I believe the answer to use

:31:00. > :31:02.by others to be threefold, deterrence, education and

:31:03. > :31:09.intervention. But I want to focus on two of those, deterrence and

:31:10. > :31:14.education. I welcome steps which the government has taken on this issue,

:31:15. > :31:19.such as minimum custodial sentences for repeat knife possession, as well

:31:20. > :31:23.as the commitment in relation to police budgets. But I also agree

:31:24. > :31:27.with the honourable member for Streatham regarding education, which

:31:28. > :31:32.has an important role to play. We need to do more in educating young

:31:33. > :31:40.people about the dangers of carrying knives.

:31:41. > :31:49.I have been working with a charity based in North Essex, set up in the

:31:50. > :31:54.Clacton area. It was set up in 2012 byte Caroline Shearer, whose

:31:55. > :31:58.17-year-old son was fatally stabbed in 2012. Since then, and this is why

:31:59. > :32:03.Caroline is so inspirational, she has been campaigning to show the

:32:04. > :32:08.devastating impact that knife crime has on young lives but also on the

:32:09. > :32:11.families. She has been providing weapons awareness education in

:32:12. > :32:14.schools. These are really hard hitting lessons, but shouldn't

:32:15. > :32:20.people be dangers of carrying knives. I have been to one of these

:32:21. > :32:25.lessons and they really do leave an impact. Usually cocky, confident

:32:26. > :32:30.students finish the lessons shocked and startled at the brutal impact

:32:31. > :32:35.that knives can have on lives. Having seen images of knife attacks,

:32:36. > :32:41.knife weans on young people, it does hit home very hard. The message that

:32:42. > :32:46.we need to send out is that all it takes is one moment of stupidity and

:32:47. > :32:53.lives and reputations can be brilliant and shattered. We teach

:32:54. > :33:02.our young people -- can be destroyed and shattered. We need to teach more

:33:03. > :33:08.in schools about the dangers of carrying knives. The demands on the

:33:09. > :33:17.curriculum are great but this represents 145 minute lesson in IDUs

:33:18. > :33:22.nine or ten. -- this represents a single 45 minute lesson in year nine

:33:23. > :33:31.or year ten. A 50,000 name petition was presented to Downing Street by

:33:32. > :33:36.Caroline for these lessons to be given in schools. It would be a big

:33:37. > :33:39.step forward in tackling knife crime across the country. I truly think

:33:40. > :33:44.the Government should take another hard look at encouraging more

:33:45. > :33:48.schools to introduce these weapons education lessons. Coming up to the

:33:49. > :33:55.point about violent crime. According to the crime survey for England and

:33:56. > :33:59.Wales, it is down since 2010 but according to violence recorded by

:34:00. > :34:04.police against the person, it has increased. The picture is far from

:34:05. > :34:08.clear. The reasons for violent crime, these spikes or false, are

:34:09. > :34:14.not well understood. It is important that the police supported by good

:34:15. > :34:18.academic work, do the research. There has been too much regulation,

:34:19. > :34:23.in my view, about the causes, and we really do need to focus on the

:34:24. > :34:28.facts. In Essex, more than half of the very notable increase in

:34:29. > :34:35.recorded beating -based crime in the last 12 months, 4463 of 8165, is in

:34:36. > :34:42.violence at against the person category. But where the

:34:43. > :34:46.subcategories of violence without injury, like shouting and

:34:47. > :34:51.harassment,... The Home Office has decided that this category should

:34:52. > :34:56.also include online bullying and harassment. In my view, this is

:34:57. > :35:00.nonsense and distorts this debate. I believe there is a very strong

:35:01. > :35:06.argument for a new stand-alone crime type category for recording online

:35:07. > :35:10.crimes. Continuing to record these crimes in the category of violent

:35:11. > :35:15.crime makes it difficult to debate violent crime and its causes. Online

:35:16. > :35:19.bullying and harassment, for example, are extremely serious

:35:20. > :35:24.crimes, but sadly it affects young people more than any other age group

:35:25. > :35:26.and we know that, but the steps we need to take to tackle physical

:35:27. > :35:30.violence and gang violence is different from what we need to

:35:31. > :35:35.tackle online abuse and harassment and that is why it is important that

:35:36. > :35:44.we look at week at a gradation. Focusing on my own constituency of

:35:45. > :35:51.Colchester. -- that we look at categorisation. A staggering 93% of

:35:52. > :35:55.the crimes in Colchester are violence with no injury. Much of it

:35:56. > :36:00.is made up of online bullying or harassment so it does put this right

:36:01. > :36:06.in a very different light. Delighted to give way. In relation to crimes

:36:07. > :36:09.that are reported, violent crime is particularly among young people,

:36:10. > :36:15.would he agree with me that so much of it goes unreported? The onboard

:36:16. > :36:21.member makes an important point. There are lots of crimes up and down

:36:22. > :36:28.this country which go reported for many reasons. I support forces like

:36:29. > :36:31.Essex Police that are making it easier to report crimes,

:36:32. > :36:35.particularly online. We have to make it easier and give people the

:36:36. > :36:38.confidence that it will be followed up by police. Coming back to the

:36:39. > :36:43.point I was making, and I apologise that it is a little details, I think

:36:44. > :36:47.it is important that if we have this debate we have it based on accurate

:36:48. > :36:51.statistics. It is almost impossible for us to happen really good, clear

:36:52. > :36:56.debate when the Home Office has provided such broad and unclear

:36:57. > :36:59.definitions of violent crime, so I think better categorisation is

:37:00. > :37:03.needed, including a separate category for online offences.

:37:04. > :37:08.Another serious concern is to do with geography and location. In

:37:09. > :37:11.Essex there is a very clear evidence of increased violence related to

:37:12. > :37:15.gangs involved in the supply and distribution of class A drugs and

:37:16. > :37:18.other drugs and the honourable member for Streatham made this point

:37:19. > :37:24.about the clear link between gang and youth violence and class A

:37:25. > :37:27.drugs. Communities in Essex are consistently evolving, as they

:37:28. > :37:32.always have, with the movement of people from London. The sad reality

:37:33. > :37:35.is that some of the gang problems traditionally associated with the

:37:36. > :37:41.area of London are spreading too many towns up and down this country,

:37:42. > :37:45.a point made by my honourable friend from Yeovil. There have been a

:37:46. > :37:52.number of murders, often stabbings, where neither the victim nor those

:37:53. > :37:58.arrested live in Essex. The London gangs are without doubt operating

:37:59. > :38:06.the county lines into Essex. Gang members have been using intimidation

:38:07. > :38:11.over people even as far north as Colchester to supply drugs to local

:38:12. > :38:15.dealers. So this is not about drugs -- just about drugs but also

:38:16. > :38:20.intimidation and threat. From London we are now seeing even outside

:38:21. > :38:26.London sometimes extreme sexual violence against women and girls who

:38:27. > :38:32.associate with these gangs. It is essential that our police forces,

:38:33. > :38:35.operate on this and Essex do already cooperate really well with the

:38:36. > :38:40.Metropolitan Police but it is extremely disappointing that in

:38:41. > :38:43.2016, most police forces do not automatically share crime data and

:38:44. > :38:49.operate on different crime systems. I commend Essex for leading the way

:38:50. > :38:52.and having the first fully collaborated policing IT system, and

:38:53. > :38:59.that will soon be used by nine forces across the country. I am also

:39:00. > :39:05.pleased that the very recent HMI see report on police effectiveness

:39:06. > :39:09.judged Essex to be good at dealing with the sort of crime we are

:39:10. > :39:12.talking about today. Other forces must follow their lead and take a

:39:13. > :39:19.comprehensive approach and work more closely together. To briefly

:39:20. > :39:23.conclude, it is refreshing to hear a sense of cross-party consensus in

:39:24. > :39:26.this chamber. If not entirely around the possible solutions but certainly

:39:27. > :39:33.around the willingness to address this most important issues. I very

:39:34. > :39:38.much applaud the honourable member for Streatham in his call on

:39:39. > :39:43.cross-party working. I think an exercise to establish the root

:39:44. > :39:46.causes would be sensible. As I mentioned, better categorisation is

:39:47. > :39:49.also an important part of this so we can get to the root cause and have a

:39:50. > :39:55.debate based on facts rather than conjecture. Education, deterrence

:39:56. > :40:01.and intervention are absolutely key to reducing violent crime and series

:40:02. > :40:10.youth violence. For many young people, delaying action is not an

:40:11. > :40:15.option. I am very grateful for the opportunity to participate in this

:40:16. > :40:19.important debate, and I congratulate my honourable friend the member for

:40:20. > :40:25.Streatham for having the debate and I know that the member shall

:40:26. > :40:29.Lewisham Deptford has been quite quietly campaigning in the tea rooms

:40:30. > :40:36.to have such a debate because of the concerns in her own constituency,

:40:37. > :40:38.and it is fantastic to be joined by the member for Westminster North,

:40:39. > :40:42.who has huge experience on these issues and has brought them to the

:40:43. > :40:45.attention of the House continuously, certainly over the years I have been

:40:46. > :40:53.in Parliament. But that is where I start. This issue is not new. And in

:40:54. > :40:59.a sense, it is very important that we don't have this debate like a

:41:00. > :41:04.year zero moment. We have now been having it for several years. I want

:41:05. > :41:11.to say that problems with young people getting caught up in crime,

:41:12. > :41:16.particularly in urban and deprived areas, is absolutely not new. Anyone

:41:17. > :41:23.who was at home over the Christmas period right have landed on the show

:41:24. > :41:28.Dickensian and would have seen an adaption of many of Dickens' books

:41:29. > :41:36.and will be very familiar with both great expectations and Oliver twist

:41:37. > :41:41.and will know that in London, we had gangs. In London, we had groups of

:41:42. > :41:50.young people getting up to criminality. At the centre of gang

:41:51. > :42:00.activity is usually adult activity above it, running those gangs. So

:42:01. > :42:03.these are not new issues. I was born in a period just coming out of huge

:42:04. > :42:11.public concern about mods and Rockers. Congregating in different

:42:12. > :42:16.parts, I see the front bench opposition spokesman, who is

:42:17. > :42:25.absolutely... Absolutely aware of that. Ever so slightly older than

:42:26. > :42:31.me. And again, there was real concern about gang activity,

:42:32. > :42:36.sometimes in seaside areas of the country, in urban areas of the

:42:37. > :42:44.country. So debate in this House about young people and crying and

:42:45. > :42:48.about gang activity is not new. -- young people and crime. So what is

:42:49. > :43:00.new? I think the level of violence is new. I think the age profile is

:43:01. > :43:10.worrying. And the geographic spread feels out of control. So just on

:43:11. > :43:20.that age profile, if we look at the Met police matrix that is really the

:43:21. > :43:31.Met's Central Way of recording who is caught up in what they describe

:43:32. > :43:35.as central gang activity, they say there are 3459 individuals on their

:43:36. > :43:45.matrix, this is at the last foot of publication in May 2014, over 500

:43:46. > :43:56.are under the age of 18. That includes two 13-year-olds, 21

:43:57. > :44:04.14-year-olds, 71 15-year-olds, 130 816-year-olds, 268 17-year-olds, 356

:44:05. > :44:09.18-year-olds. 55% are aged between 18 and 22. Something is going on.

:44:10. > :44:19.Something is going on and it is something we should be very worried

:44:20. > :44:23.about. Any member that has a significant or significant housing

:44:24. > :44:27.estates particularly will talk about this phenomenon, which we often

:44:28. > :44:33.associated with America, arriving in this country, of young people,

:44:34. > :44:41.teenage, running drug activity on behalf of older individuals. I thank

:44:42. > :44:51.him for giving way. Would he agree that serious violence against women

:44:52. > :44:55.and very young girls can be -- is not presently appropriately recorded

:44:56. > :44:58.or understood as part of gang activity and not enough action is

:44:59. > :45:04.being taken on this very important part of this specific problem? I am

:45:05. > :45:08.so pleased my honourable friend has also raised that issue, because that

:45:09. > :45:15.is the other issue that is new, but I was just going to come onto. That

:45:16. > :45:28.young profile has got something to do, I think, with the enforcement

:45:29. > :45:33.side of this national problem. The police are locking people up. We are

:45:34. > :45:37.serious about carrying a knife. We have been historically serious about

:45:38. > :45:42.carrying a gun. But because they have locked up some of the older

:45:43. > :45:47.individuals, and that particularly happened, I might say, after the

:45:48. > :45:54.2011 riots, all it has done is driven the crime down to these

:45:55. > :46:01.younger individuals, and then become to my honourable friend's point

:46:02. > :46:04.about the definition of gangs. Very, very dangerous to call any

:46:05. > :46:13.congregation of young people a gangs. I might say it always feels

:46:14. > :46:20.like to call any congregation of young black and brown people a

:46:21. > :46:24.gangs. Because actually, for those of us in the House that have

:46:25. > :46:33.children, and particularly getting to that teenage point, actually, 12,

:46:34. > :46:35.13-year-olds are quite attracted to joining gangs. So we need to be very

:46:36. > :46:46.careful about the gang description. Thank you to my friend Michael

:46:47. > :46:52.giving way. I want to touch on the point he raises, what happens when

:46:53. > :46:57.police target older gangs, I mean criminal gangs, not younger people,

:46:58. > :47:01.target them in operations and leave a vacuum which triggers a spike in

:47:02. > :47:05.violence amongst the younger lower orders of those gangs who have been

:47:06. > :47:11.drawn into the reasons that he cites? My honourable friend is

:47:12. > :47:18.completely right. What is being said, unfortunately, is that some of

:47:19. > :47:22.the moral compass of these young people is incredibly worrying. They

:47:23. > :47:27.are impressionable, young. And for some of the reasons that my

:47:28. > :47:32.honourable friend has also raised, one I say impressionable, I mean,

:47:33. > :47:37.because we live in a society that has preference choice above

:47:38. > :47:44.everything else, we live in a society where you have the choice

:47:45. > :47:49.not frankly to be exposed to quite serious violence, in social media,

:47:50. > :47:58.on television, in parts of the games industry, not all and it is quite

:47:59. > :48:03.hard for modern parents, however much money they have, to delineate

:48:04. > :48:09.between access to some of those images and that impression. So we

:48:10. > :48:15.have young people stopping almost as if they don't realise the

:48:16. > :48:20.consequence of that stabbing. It is quite quite bizarre that you might

:48:21. > :48:26.not realise that puncturing skin and causing blood loss might not lead to

:48:27. > :48:32.a loss of life but I've seen images, they are on YouTube, you can see

:48:33. > :48:39.them, of young people being stabbed almost as Boston. And my honourable

:48:40. > :48:46.friend is right, much of it goes unreported. It never turns up in our

:48:47. > :48:50.hospitals. It is solved most by self-medication, go to the pharmacy,

:48:51. > :48:55.get a Band-Aid and it is sorted out, in community. So there is a real

:48:56. > :49:01.prevalence in violence. A real indication that the spectrum is

:49:02. > :49:05.going down. And as my honourable friend has just raised, the other

:49:06. > :49:10.thing that is new and worrying and not something that is strictly we

:49:11. > :49:14.would associate with mods or rockers back in the time of Charles Dickens

:49:15. > :49:21.is beef and Umunna now viewing women, young women, being at the

:49:22. > :49:26.centre of the action. If you looked at some of the individuals running

:49:27. > :49:31.these gangs, and actually you can still run a gang from prison, let's

:49:32. > :49:35.be clear, you can bring in the younger folk, wide, because they are

:49:36. > :49:40.less likely to get a sentence and they are caught, and you bring in

:49:41. > :49:45.the women on the estates. You pray on the young women. Tremendous work

:49:46. > :49:51.historically by the children's Commissioner, raising issues of

:49:52. > :49:55.women and sexualisation of women all gang at 230 and the way that women

:49:56. > :50:00.become victims in this but you can hide the knife in your girlfriend 's

:50:01. > :50:07.bedroom. You can hide the staffed with her. -- the stash. She can walk

:50:08. > :50:13.quietly to the opposite state and perhaps not get picked up in the

:50:14. > :50:21.same way. -- the opposite state. The profile is changing. I'm grateful to

:50:22. > :50:26.my honourable friend for giving way in a powerful speech. The other

:50:27. > :50:32.issue of course is not just the role of girls and women being used to

:50:33. > :50:36.conceal weapons but straightforward exploitation of women in our

:50:37. > :50:42.communities, who are passed from one group of young lads to another. This

:50:43. > :50:49.just doesn't get talked about almost enough, in my view, as my fellow

:50:50. > :50:54.Lambeth MP said. David Lambie. Absolutely. So there is a deeply

:50:55. > :50:59.disturbing pattern of sexualisation of these women. These women who are

:51:00. > :51:05.victims, who have not been picked up, and this has been a matter of

:51:06. > :51:13.debate in other places, and all of it leads to a very disturbing

:51:14. > :51:18.combination of violence, of sexual activity, of real victims, both

:51:19. > :51:26.young, both female, and of criminality in our areas. And it is

:51:27. > :51:34.not just members saying that, the head of Scotland Yard's major

:51:35. > :51:41.command said that the presence of 13-year-old and 14-year-olds on gang

:51:42. > :51:47.territory is more concerning and it is very worrying that 17 men aged 18

:51:48. > :51:50.or under were fatally stabbed in London last year. So then we get to

:51:51. > :52:00.the strategy that my honourable friend published very shortly. Very,

:52:01. > :52:07.recently. This is the strategy. It was published in January 20 16. I

:52:08. > :52:14.say to the Minister as gently as I can, does this problem merit an

:52:15. > :52:23.eight page strategy or something more considerable? On the back of

:52:24. > :52:26.the strategy there is a description of the constituencies described as

:52:27. > :52:36.being within the end gang violence areas. My first point in relation to

:52:37. > :52:41.that is what do we mean by" end". We dedicated to ending this? I say this

:52:42. > :52:46.because I have now been in the House for 16 years, and this story began

:52:47. > :52:51.around about the time I came here. I would say, in 1995, 94, around about

:52:52. > :52:56.the time Tony Blair became leader of the Labour Party and John Major came

:52:57. > :53:00.to the end of his stage as Conservative leader, we wouldn't

:53:01. > :53:04.have been having a debate about youth violence and gangs. It just

:53:05. > :53:08.wasn't present in the British Mexican AbFab point in our history.

:53:09. > :53:17.Towards the end of the 1990s we started to see an upsurge of gun

:53:18. > :53:19.violence particularly. Operation Trident, there was another operation

:53:20. > :53:25.that was termed black on black violence. That morphed into some of

:53:26. > :53:29.the strategies we saw particularly and the leadership of Charles Clarke

:53:30. > :53:35.was secretary in the Blair government. And certainly after the

:53:36. > :53:41.riots under this government there was also an upsurge. I am talking

:53:42. > :53:45.about annex a because we have to decide if we want to end this

:53:46. > :53:48.because I'm afraid it's going in the wrong direction. I've talked about

:53:49. > :53:55.the young people, about the women, but the violence. Other honourable

:53:56. > :54:03.members have mentioned trauma. Look at the geography. In April 2012 the

:54:04. > :54:09.areas identified were like Hackney, Lewisham, Liverpool, Manchester,

:54:10. > :54:12.Nottingham, Sandwell. Not areas that I think that honourable members

:54:13. > :54:18.would have been surprised when included in the areas we wanted to

:54:19. > :54:21.deal with. By June- December 2012 and had moved on to include

:54:22. > :54:28.Hammersmith and Fulham, Merton, Leeds. The barn ats the Brom ats.

:54:29. > :54:40.That was starting to get worrying. Thanet. Last we had Basildon,

:54:41. > :54:47.Grimsby, Harrow. High Wycombe. Southampton, Swindon. What is going

:54:48. > :54:53.on here? Something that was bourbon, inner city, has now become

:54:54. > :54:57.incredibly suburban. Problems that were traditionally black have become

:54:58. > :55:01.white. It is the whole reflection of our young people that have been

:55:02. > :55:06.caught at in this violence. The picture is not unique to particular

:55:07. > :55:11.communities. It is spreading. There a geographic spread. By comeback

:55:12. > :55:16.too, is with just an eight page strategy? We will continue to

:55:17. > :55:19.prioritise the reduction of gang-related violence including

:55:20. > :55:31.tackling knife crime. How, what, when, by when? Local areas were

:55:32. > :55:35.encouraged to develop and effective response to gang violence. How will

:55:36. > :55:39.we know the best practice? We've already got evidence that some of

:55:40. > :55:44.these gangs straddle different local authorities. There is real spread.

:55:45. > :55:52.Gangs in London, adults are running young people into the suburbs to

:55:53. > :55:57.sell drugs. So the strategy in Lewisham, how does it relate to the

:55:58. > :56:03.strategy in Kent? What is that pattern? And isn't mentioned. -- it

:56:04. > :56:09.isn't mentioned. The Ministry of Justice has brought together and

:56:10. > :56:15.analysis, how is this shared, where do I get hold of this? How are we

:56:16. > :56:21.coming together, as the honourable member has suggested, to deal with

:56:22. > :56:27.it? It does not feel it is commanding the level of grip for a

:56:28. > :56:33.spreading epidemic that is taking the lives of young people, and

:56:34. > :56:39.inflicting real pain and hardship amongst very different communities,

:56:40. > :56:47.it does not feel quite like that is being gripped. I think that is why

:56:48. > :56:51.the honourable member has brought this debate today. So what is

:56:52. > :56:59.required? We need much better understanding of best practice.

:57:00. > :57:08.We've got to get into these issues of violence, and violence in

:57:09. > :57:14.society. Any social worker, will tell you that domestic violence is

:57:15. > :57:18.often going on in these homes. We have the troubled families

:57:19. > :57:24.initiative, how is it impacting in this area, given that it seems to be

:57:25. > :57:33.getting worse? The statistics are very, very worrying. We had an 18%

:57:34. > :57:39.increase in assault with injury, the figures add to January 20 16. The

:57:40. > :57:43.22% increase in violence against the person in and on. Data from the

:57:44. > :57:47.London Ambulance Service. And we know that our profound problems with

:57:48. > :57:52.data from the London Ambulance Service so this is not necessarily

:57:53. > :57:57.the best data and yet they show a 9% injury in the number of assaults

:57:58. > :58:05.involving knives. 14% up my scream in London as a whole -- app knife

:58:06. > :58:09.crime, over the last 12 months. Urgent, and yet not figuring in our

:58:10. > :58:15.national conversation and our response in the way I believe it

:58:16. > :58:21.ought to. After the 2011 riots there was a huge fanfare because of course

:58:22. > :58:27.the Mayor of London, now the MP for expert, he's obviously very good at

:58:28. > :58:32.fanfare! -- for Uxbridge. He brought in a Bill Bratton, the Commissioner

:58:33. > :58:37.from New York. The honourable members will remember that he had

:58:38. > :58:43.all these strategies and plans. What happened to that? There has been

:58:44. > :58:48.some discussion previously of the Glasgow model, because Glasgow had a

:58:49. > :58:52.significant problem, and they have done particular things with their

:58:53. > :58:56.violence reduction unit, how does that have a bearing on these plans?

:58:57. > :59:02.We've heard about what's happened in Jakarta goal and Boston. The ideas

:59:03. > :59:08.are out there to end. There are solutions but where is the sense of

:59:09. > :59:12.coherence in relation to strategy which is actually going to deal with

:59:13. > :59:17.this problem. I'm sorry to challenge but if you live in one of these

:59:18. > :59:22.areas represent one of them this strategy document feels like a civil

:59:23. > :59:27.service exercise. It does not feel like the kind of deliberate action

:59:28. > :59:32.we will require, particularly not around enforcement but around

:59:33. > :59:38.diversion activity, particularly for our very young souls indeed. The

:59:39. > :59:42.next speaker, we want to start the wind about half past one and we have

:59:43. > :59:48.three more speakers to go so if we can keep within ten or 15 minutes

:59:49. > :59:51.everybody will get in. Current Back. May I begin by congratulating my

:59:52. > :59:56.honourable friend for introducing this very important debate and for

:59:57. > :59:59.his very powerful speech which sets out the challenges we face. We've

:00:00. > :00:03.had some extremely strong speech is already that make the point that

:00:04. > :00:06.this is not year zero as my honourable friend the Member for

:00:07. > :00:12.Tottenham says, there is a long tradition of violence in this

:00:13. > :00:18.country and groups that go back of the in different manifestations. But

:00:19. > :00:22.it is changing, the nature of the problem is changing, growing anger

:00:23. > :00:26.and more female and spreading to other areas. Yet within that, it

:00:27. > :00:34.remains true that it is largely, though not exclusively a crisis

:00:35. > :00:38.affecting black and minority operations, not exclusively yet it

:00:39. > :00:42.is a problem and it is one largely of deprivation, largely, though not

:00:43. > :00:45.exclusively. A great shame that we don't have more members of

:00:46. > :00:50.Parliament president to discuss this today because my honourable friend

:00:51. > :00:55.is right, if it were not a problem that is so overlaid with issues of

:00:56. > :01:01.deprivation, I would hope we would have more people here to discuss it.

:01:02. > :01:05.It is absolutely critical that we exercise our duty as members of

:01:06. > :01:11.Parliament to all our constituents in the country, and we echo the

:01:12. > :01:15.cries of pain that we herewith an our communities to address this

:01:16. > :01:21.problem. We know because it is not year zero that after a sharp

:01:22. > :01:29.increase in deaths from serious youth violence in London in 2007 and

:01:30. > :01:35.2008, action was taken and we saw an improvement of the situation over

:01:36. > :01:41.the years of 2011 and 2012. I had my last debate in my name on youth and

:01:42. > :01:46.gang violence in 2007. After that period, I don't say those facts were

:01:47. > :01:49.connected but we saw genuine progress, a welcome reduction in the

:01:50. > :01:55.number of deaths, certainly in London.

:01:56. > :02:02.We are now seeing a reversal of that success and these facts are

:02:03. > :02:09.extremely worrying. It is absolutely right, as others have said, that not

:02:10. > :02:14.all incidents are reported to the, no know means is that the case. In

:02:15. > :02:18.Westminster North, which is not... It is not Haringey. It is not one of

:02:19. > :02:22.those areas which has been most usually associated with pressures

:02:23. > :02:26.and not south-central Los Angeles. Let me tell you about some of the

:02:27. > :02:32.incidents which have happened over the last couple of months. Last

:02:33. > :02:37.month, in fact, January, just after the removal of the security cameras

:02:38. > :02:41.in church Street in my constituency a young man was stabbed in the

:02:42. > :02:47.street in front of witnesses A constituent e-mailed me to say this

:02:48. > :02:51.brutal and bloody event was shocking to witnesses and occurred out of two

:02:52. > :02:56.shops belonging to the trading association. I understand the victim

:02:57. > :02:59.was in surgery and he was lucky a deep stab wound just missed his

:03:00. > :03:03.heart. Two days before Christmas. A young man I know well, who did work

:03:04. > :03:09.experience in my office, was surrounded by a group of 20 young

:03:10. > :03:14.people and stabbed in the chest. The knife entered the fatty tish slew of

:03:15. > :03:21.his heart. He was ex-- fatty tissue of his heart. He was lucky to

:03:22. > :03:24.survive. I was e-mailed by a constituent, who said, "I heard

:03:25. > :03:28.shouting and saw a young lad on the phone. He was saying to someone on

:03:29. > :03:35.the other end, I have been stabbed. I called 999. It took me a long time

:03:36. > :03:41.to persuade them it was a serious incident. I understand he had four

:03:42. > :03:47.stab wounds. He was 14 years old." In seventh, there were violent

:03:48. > :03:56.clashes in St Mary's recreation ground. They tweeted to me, we need

:03:57. > :04:00.control. There is a huge gang fight behind the Little Venice. A few

:04:01. > :04:05.incidents and that gives an indication of how real the problem S

:04:06. > :04:11.it is true, as my friends have said, that you can be completely, you can

:04:12. > :04:15.live in these communities and be completely oblivious to this. As a

:04:16. > :04:19.middle aged woman, I can walk those streets and live in a different

:04:20. > :04:24.world and the world that our young people live in, in this city, but

:04:25. > :04:31.increasingly in our towns too is different. Their experience of it is

:04:32. > :04:35.different. We need to wake up, as an adult community, to who those

:04:36. > :04:39.challenges are. This is a very important point - every single one

:04:40. > :04:45.of those incidents may be something that most adults are oblivious to,

:04:46. > :04:50.but they have ripples. Those ripples spread out. The 20 young people who

:04:51. > :04:55.stabbed the young man who did work e peens in my office. They know what

:04:56. > :05:00.happened. Their families know there are risks and dangers. That young

:05:01. > :05:03.man's family. One thing I discover is going into schools in my

:05:04. > :05:06.constituent, talking to nine year olds and eight year olds and asking

:05:07. > :05:11.them how they feel about their community. One of the things they

:05:12. > :05:17.raise is gang violence. They say, can the gang violence be stopped?

:05:18. > :05:21.They fear for their own relatives... Yes, I will give way. Thank you. I

:05:22. > :05:27.thank my honourable friend for giving way. That is, my honourable

:05:28. > :05:34.friend makes a powerful point n my constituency, Brent central. The

:05:35. > :05:39.youngest gang member is 13 and the oldest 61 years old. It is shows the

:05:40. > :05:42.breadth of the problem in Brent Central. Many people will be

:05:43. > :05:45.oblivious to what happens on the streets.

:05:46. > :05:52.My honourable friend is absolutely correct. We know the relatives, the

:05:53. > :05:55.parents of those children who are injured and tragically murdered.

:05:56. > :06:00.They are in the community. They are in their churches. They are in their

:06:01. > :06:06.neighbourhoods afrnd their agony is something -- and their Agassi gony

:06:07. > :06:12.is echoed through the communities. She is making a very powerful point.

:06:13. > :06:17.My constituents this week, a young lad of 11 years old was hit-and-run

:06:18. > :06:21.by a vehicle, by young people in a vehicle and was killed outside the

:06:22. > :06:25.mosque in front of his father. The whole community are in mourning. Yet

:06:26. > :06:29.sometimes a lot of the time our young people, as I said before,

:06:30. > :06:34.don't understand the consequences of the weapons they use and they feel

:06:35. > :06:38.it is part of being a gang or being part of youth culture. That has

:06:39. > :06:43.serious consequences for the rest of their lives and for the whole of the

:06:44. > :06:46.community. I absolutely agree with the honourable member about that

:06:47. > :06:50.point. I don't want to go into some of the issues around causes because

:06:51. > :06:55.they have been well set out and time is pressing. A lack of understanding

:06:56. > :07:00.about the consequences of violence behaviour is right. The causes we

:07:01. > :07:05.have explored. One of the community groups ran a campaign called oop

:07:06. > :07:10.fear and Fashion. That encap lates the story. People are frightened and

:07:11. > :07:14.by fashion they mean the tendency to be aware these things are going on

:07:15. > :07:19.in the community, to be part of something they consider to be

:07:20. > :07:25.normalised. But these every single one of these incidents, even though

:07:26. > :07:29.which are nonfatal are tragedies and they have ramifications and they

:07:30. > :07:35.impact on the communities. I will give way. I am most grateful. She

:07:36. > :07:38.will know is a former member of the Home Affairs Select Committee, that

:07:39. > :07:43.the committee conducted an inquiry into this. I think she was a member

:07:44. > :07:46.at the time. Given what the honourable member for Streatham has

:07:47. > :07:49.said today, isn't it important that we revisit some of these

:07:50. > :07:56.conclusions? Some of this is already there. It just needs to be revisited

:07:57. > :08:00.and acted upon. I think my Right Honourable friend

:08:01. > :08:03.is absolutely right. We know that there are changes, as we have heard

:08:04. > :08:08.in the debate so far this afternoon in the way that gang and serious

:08:09. > :08:13.youth violence is working itself out. Many constants from experience

:08:14. > :08:18.and we need to learn from them. There very positive things going on

:08:19. > :08:20.too, in terms of the work which has been done in community

:08:21. > :08:26.organisations. Westminster Councils, I don't often praise them, but I

:08:27. > :08:33.will when they have a gangs unit which include excellent members who

:08:34. > :08:39.work intensively with young people. Red This red which is working out

:08:40. > :08:43.for Accident Emergency units a and trying to catch young people at a

:08:44. > :08:47.teachable moment, the moment an injury has been inflicted and they

:08:48. > :08:52.can learn from this. There is much which is good. I will break with

:08:53. > :08:59.consensus now by saying how much we are in danger of losing, at the very

:09:00. > :09:02.point we need to be gaining. I am deeply worried, Madam Deputy

:09:03. > :09:07.Speaker, about the crisis in our youth offending incidents which are

:09:08. > :09:11.ridden with extreme gang violence and the cost pressures bite in the

:09:12. > :09:18.youth Justice Secretarior. The more there is overcrowding in our prisons

:09:19. > :09:26.the more dangerous this situation becomes. I was asking for figures at

:09:27. > :09:32.Medway. ?138,000 a year to keep a young person. In Feltham ?69,000 a

:09:33. > :09:38.year. That is the kind of money we will spend in locking up a young

:09:39. > :09:42.person who... Obviously by no means because of gang and serious youth

:09:43. > :09:46.violence, but we spend that money and yet we are doing something

:09:47. > :09:50.dreadful, which is we are removing the investment which is necessary to

:09:51. > :09:57.prevent this kind of behaviour. And I will say today, I am horrified

:09:58. > :10:00.by my own local council which is not alone from withdrawing all funding

:10:01. > :10:04.from its youth service. If we talk about intervention, we are talking

:10:05. > :10:08.about catching young people at a teachable moment. It is critical. My

:10:09. > :10:13.honourable friend made that point about youth workers. The continuity

:10:14. > :10:19.and expertise of our youth workers is critical and we are losing them.

:10:20. > :10:23.My honourable friend makes a very, very important point, so many of the

:10:24. > :10:29.activities which are provided for young people are not stat Tory, a

:10:30. > :10:36.lot of this youth provision is not statutory, so it is often first in

:10:37. > :10:41.the line for cuts. I am trying not to be political -- party political

:10:42. > :10:45.about this. But the grant, inevitably is going to have an

:10:46. > :10:48.impact on the support that local authorities can give to

:10:49. > :10:51.organisations working on. This My honourable friend is absolutely

:10:52. > :10:56.right. We are in a very dangerous situation here, as the pressure on

:10:57. > :10:59.youth services bites. It is that early intervention and early

:11:00. > :11:04.intervention we think about as being for under the fives. Early

:11:05. > :11:11.intervention is as important in the teenage and adolescent years as it

:11:12. > :11:15.is among the under fives. I thank my friend for giving way on this

:11:16. > :11:19.powerful point. As a former minister for youth engagement it was part of

:11:20. > :11:23.our hope that it would have been made statutory that youth services

:11:24. > :11:27.be ring-fenced in each council it is disappointing that position has been

:11:28. > :11:33.scrapped by the Government. It is disappoints we don't invest in all

:11:34. > :11:37.of the youth services that were going and doing excellent job in the

:11:38. > :11:41.communities for many, many years. I absolutely agree with this. It is

:11:42. > :11:47.not just youth services, it is also the pressure on child and adolescent

:11:48. > :11:51.mental health. For all of the talk about giving collarry to -- clarity

:11:52. > :11:57.to mental health services we have seen a squeeze on mental health

:11:58. > :12:01.services. My honourable friend for Streatham made a point about health.

:12:02. > :12:05.Westminster again, I praise them when they do good things, they

:12:06. > :12:14.commissioned a report into gang and mental ill health. This is a vastly

:12:15. > :12:20.unexemployered area of importance in -- unexplored area. It said" street

:12:21. > :12:24.gangs and growing violence has been a concern over the past decade and

:12:25. > :12:28.in Westminster concentrated in areas of high crime. The mental health

:12:29. > :12:32.needs of young people in gangs have been overlooked. This report

:12:33. > :12:37.demonstrated extremely high level of mental health need in young people

:12:38. > :12:43.involved in gangs. Compared to nonviolent men, gang mens has

:12:44. > :12:49.increased personal disorder, 57 times higher than the average.

:12:50. > :12:54.Suicide attempts 13 times higher. Psychosis 14 times higher." Gang

:12:55. > :12:58.members significantly more likely than nonviolent men to have utilised

:12:59. > :13:03.mental health services, with gang members eight times more likely to

:13:04. > :13:09.have consulted a psychiatrist and five times more likely to have used

:13:10. > :13:13.Medvedevation." We have a mental health crisis which impacts on the

:13:14. > :13:18.very people that we need to deal with. Yesterday at the same singed

:13:19. > :13:23.we are seeing a reduck -- same time we are seeing a deruction in the

:13:24. > :13:26.services and the school-based systems. I am particularly worried

:13:27. > :13:30.that the mental health intervention in my own local authority is half

:13:31. > :13:36.the level it was two years ago and is only funded to next year. Of

:13:37. > :13:39.course, the whole pack enter gang initiative is only funded until next

:13:40. > :13:44.year and there is this uncertainty. I am drawing to a close. , very,

:13:45. > :13:49.very briefly, she's making a powerful case. 35 gang-flagged

:13:50. > :13:54.incidents in Greenwich and Woolwich in the few months I was elected last

:13:55. > :14:00.May and many deaths around the Woolwich area. Given the

:14:01. > :14:07.circumstances and the epidemic, does she agree it makes no sense for the

:14:08. > :14:10.Government to pull them out of the gang and youth offending programme?

:14:11. > :14:14.I totally agree. I think we understand a great deal about what

:14:15. > :14:18.is going on, even when the changing dynamic. We are in danger of doing

:14:19. > :14:24.all the wrong things. We are scrapping youth intervention in some

:14:25. > :14:28.places. We are cutting child and adolescent mental health services

:14:29. > :14:32.and so many other areas of early intervention and we are also fate

:14:33. > :14:38.ally, in my view, ensuring that the ver viss which do work for children

:14:39. > :14:43.and young people at risk of gang involvement are short term and end

:14:44. > :14:48.very quickly. In the last line, I believe two things. I think it takes

:14:49. > :14:52.the village to raise a child. Those of us who live in the city, which is

:14:53. > :14:58.diverse, mobile and so disconnected know we have to build and rebuild

:14:59. > :15:04.that village every single day. And voluntary endeavour cannot do it

:15:05. > :15:09.alone. Our village has to include neighbourhood police. Child

:15:10. > :15:13.adolescent services, schools, churches, mosques and individual

:15:14. > :15:18.family. We should treat gangs and serious youth violence as a public

:15:19. > :15:21.health nergesy, as much as we should a criminal justice one. Mental

:15:22. > :15:25.health services are at the front line.

:15:26. > :15:33.Thank you very much. Can I begin by congratulating the honourable member

:15:34. > :15:37.from Streatham for securing this debate and for his very excellent

:15:38. > :15:42.speech which outlined the complexities and the difficulties in

:15:43. > :15:46.this area? It is a privilege to follow on from a powerful

:15:47. > :15:52.contribution from the member of Westminster North. Today, I want to

:15:53. > :15:58.focus on the phenomenon of county lines in which urban criminal gangs

:15:59. > :16:02.groom and coerce children and young people into selling Class A drugs,

:16:03. > :16:07.particularly heroin and crack cocaine. Young people travel many

:16:08. > :16:12.miles from their home, often to quiet market and seaside towns,

:16:13. > :16:16.where they are set up to deal drugs, sometimes from the home of a

:16:17. > :16:24.vulnerable person there. Last July I attended the launch of the first

:16:25. > :16:28.major report into county lines Running the Risks, it was published

:16:29. > :16:35.jointly by catch 22 and Missing People. A month later the National

:16:36. > :16:42.Crime Agency produced an assessment which said county lines affect most

:16:43. > :16:50.forces and almost always involves exploitation of vulnerable people.

:16:51. > :16:59.In January the Home Office published a report entitled Ending Gang

:17:00. > :17:04.Violence and Exploitation. This showed that gangs otherwise took to

:17:05. > :17:07.police tactics and were making it harder for police to disrupt

:17:08. > :17:12.activity and safeguard vulnerable people. The report also said young

:17:13. > :17:15.girls are groomed for both involvement in criminal behaviour

:17:16. > :17:21.and harmful sexual behaviour as part of gang culture. Indeed the recent

:17:22. > :17:26.Rotherham trial show the connection between organised crime and drugs

:17:27. > :17:30.and child sexual exploitation. We don't yet know the scale of the

:17:31. > :17:38.county lines problem and where it was discovered. Agencies are not

:17:39. > :17:42.clear how to deal with it. Children from Greater Manchester have been

:17:43. > :17:46.found selling drugs in flats and seaside and other provincial towns

:17:47. > :17:50.some as far as Devon. Children are used to reduce the risk to older

:17:51. > :17:55.gang members. This may go unnoticed by police particularly if they have

:17:56. > :17:59.no record of offending. The gang leaders are like modern-day versions

:18:00. > :18:04.of Fagin or Bill Sykes, hard men who groom youngsters and use them to do

:18:05. > :18:08.their dirty work. This is serious and recognition of the county lines

:18:09. > :18:25.phenomenon which I believe is the next big grooming scandal.

:18:26. > :18:28.Just as with children groomed for child sexual exploitation we need to

:18:29. > :18:30.recognise that young people drawn into criminality and drug dealing

:18:31. > :18:33.have in the first instance been groomed and many belated. The young

:18:34. > :18:35.people end up charged with criminal offences, putting them in the same

:18:36. > :18:37.relationship with the law as the adults are groomed them. And this

:18:38. > :18:39.leaves them vulnerable to further exploitation, continuing to be

:18:40. > :18:42.victims at the same time as offending. This needs to be seen in

:18:43. > :18:46.the context of organised crime and systematic grooming of young people.

:18:47. > :18:49.Often the people at the centre are long-term hardened criminals. The

:18:50. > :18:54.Catch-22 report stressed the link between gang involvement and young

:18:55. > :18:57.people going missing and said young people are too often criminalised

:18:58. > :19:03.rather than safeguarded. The report said that while missing incidents

:19:04. > :19:08.were children and younger people are usually underreported, this is

:19:09. > :19:12.especially true of young people recruited into gangs, also true of

:19:13. > :19:15.young people placed into care miles away from their home town with

:19:16. > :19:19.little support, leaving them vulnerable to getting drawn back

:19:20. > :19:23.again into gangs. An additional issue with county lines is that

:19:24. > :19:29.young people involved may often be aged between 16 and 18, and

:19:30. > :19:32.according to the Children Society there is massive and reporting of

:19:33. > :19:37.young people missing in this age group. Understanding of county lines

:19:38. > :19:41.is developing at a national level and the use of young, vulnerable

:19:42. > :19:46.people to traffic drugs across county lines is flagged up as a

:19:47. > :19:50.major issue by practitioners. Organisations who work to turn young

:19:51. > :19:55.people from gang crime, notably the St John's trust charity in London

:19:56. > :19:59.which works with young people to break the cycle of offending have

:20:00. > :20:04.also been working on this subject was on time and have some harrowing

:20:05. > :20:08.stories to share. And was told by Saint Gyles's Trunk that young

:20:09. > :20:14.children use plastic containers from chocolate toys to carry drugs in

:20:15. > :20:17.their own bodies, a serious risk to health and it is hard to imagine a

:20:18. > :20:21.more graphic metaphor for the provision of childhood. I was also

:20:22. > :20:25.told of young girls dressed in school uniforms used as drug mules

:20:26. > :20:29.because they are not likely to be searched, and the ages that young

:20:30. > :20:34.people get involved in a gang is very concerning. There have been

:20:35. > :20:40.reports of cases involving children as young as nine. The trust has been

:20:41. > :20:44.given one warning of a child aged 12 involved in county lines. There are

:20:45. > :20:49.increasing stories about gangs setting up their own members to be

:20:50. > :20:53.searched and then told they must work off their debt by engaging in

:20:54. > :20:58.drug trafficking for free or engaging in sex. This is nothing

:20:59. > :21:04.less than slavery. The threat of child sex exploitation of the girls

:21:05. > :21:08.in gangs is known but traffic being moved to remote locations compounds

:21:09. > :21:12.the vulnerability. Using people are at risk of physical violence, child

:21:13. > :21:17.exploitation and emotional and physical abuse. This involves

:21:18. > :21:21.arguably but trafficking and modern slavery. These children are seen as

:21:22. > :21:25.bad children who have chosen a criminal lifestyle. One national

:21:26. > :21:30.newspaper recently reported a court case about a 13-year-old Manchester

:21:31. > :21:34.boy sent to Cumbria by a gang and set up as a heroin and crack cocaine

:21:35. > :21:41.dealer. There was a court saying that the boy revelled in his role as

:21:42. > :21:44.a little gangster. He was a child. The recent Home Office report

:21:45. > :21:50.indicates that we have somewhere to go into acting county lines. Action

:21:51. > :21:56.is needed at a national level to set out where responsibility lies for

:21:57. > :22:02.law enforcement in disrupting county lines and how information should be

:22:03. > :22:05.shared so that when young people are found, they are supported in the

:22:06. > :22:09.appropriate manner. We need to know the skill of involvement of

:22:10. > :22:15.vulnerable young people in county lines. I asked and above questions

:22:16. > :22:18.to try to establish numbers. The Home Office responded that because

:22:19. > :22:21.the National Crime Agency does not conduct county lines operations they

:22:22. > :22:27.do not have this information. We also need to know how much use is

:22:28. > :22:30.being made of anti-trafficking and slavery laws to charge older members

:22:31. > :22:34.with grooming younger gang members and finally we need to know how best

:22:35. > :22:41.to support these young people and have been found. Information that

:22:42. > :22:46.needs to be cross-referenced with information about possible gang

:22:47. > :22:48.involvement to stage an early intervention and try to disrupt

:22:49. > :22:52.involvement after early missing incidents. I offer a practical

:22:53. > :22:58.suggestion to the Minister, that would help in disrupting the

:22:59. > :23:02.grooming of children and young people to sell drugs at a very early

:23:03. > :23:08.stage. Currently we have numerous civil orders available to the police

:23:09. > :23:12.to combat grooming for child sexual exploitation including sexual risk

:23:13. > :23:15.orders, sexual harm prevention orders and child abduction

:23:16. > :23:19.prevention orders. I want to see the creation of similar orders for use

:23:20. > :23:24.where children are being groomed by criminal gangs to act as drug

:23:25. > :23:29.runners. Perhaps they could be called Fagin Orders? The reality is

:23:30. > :23:33.that many children initially groomed into criminal activity then groomed

:23:34. > :23:37.for sexual exploitation, or alternatively I initially groomed

:23:38. > :23:42.for criminal purposes and then child exploitation. Both forms of

:23:43. > :23:44.exploitation are inextricably interlinked and young people are

:23:45. > :23:51.reluctant and frightened to disclose either. Returning to children who

:23:52. > :23:56.have gone missing, an important source of not only a stab at in the

:23:57. > :23:59.risk to the young person but also gathering information about their

:24:00. > :24:02.associates and intelligence about county lines. It's important that

:24:03. > :24:06.this information is used to safeguarding by both police and

:24:07. > :24:11.children's services, where young people are found after involvement

:24:12. > :24:16.in county lines the approach should be holistic. The Saint Gyles Trust

:24:17. > :24:20.have suggested a framework where young people who are former

:24:21. > :24:23.offenders accompany police and raids and immediately offer support to

:24:24. > :24:27.young people who are more likely to listen to people who've been in the

:24:28. > :24:31.same situation as they have. To return to the point made at the

:24:32. > :24:35.beginning, we must learn from the CSE scandals that have ruined so

:24:36. > :24:39.many lives. We can't afford to make the same mistakes again, blaming

:24:40. > :24:42.young people, saying they have made their own bed, failing to ask the

:24:43. > :24:45.right questions and failing to respond even when we know what's

:24:46. > :24:49.happened. Missing people have been working with a mother whose son

:24:50. > :24:53.began going missing aged 12 and was being groomed by a gang to sell

:24:54. > :25:04.drugs away from his home in county lines operations. The mother was

:25:05. > :25:06.desperate not to lose the sun to this and reported it every time he

:25:07. > :25:09.went missing and yet it took six months to receive and is a board

:25:10. > :25:11.from services. How can that be right? He repeatedly went missing

:25:12. > :25:15.for periods ranging from overnight to three months. He ended up taken

:25:16. > :25:20.into care and in numerous distant placements. We need a response to

:25:21. > :25:24.county lines which means that children are safeguarded from gangs

:25:25. > :25:26.are the adults who groomed them are published to egg banished to the

:25:27. > :25:32.full extent of the law. Until then it will continue to be the young

:25:33. > :25:35.victims who are punished as their abusers continue with the trade that

:25:36. > :25:45.brings them thousands of pounds a day. Vicki Foxcroft. Thank you,

:25:46. > :25:48.Madam Deputy is. As a new MP nothing prepare you for receiving a call

:25:49. > :25:52.from the police telling your teenager has been murdered in your

:25:53. > :25:56.constituency. Once was hard enough but within weeks of each other, this

:25:57. > :26:04.happened twice, on exactly the same estate. In fact, since becoming an

:26:05. > :26:08.MP last year, four young people from my constituency have now lost their

:26:09. > :26:17.lives, due to the needless violence on our streets. I sat down with many

:26:18. > :26:23.of the family and friends left behind and many of them are here

:26:24. > :26:28.today. Losing loved ones is hard enough but having them murdered, not

:26:29. > :26:32.being able to understand what has happened, is even harder. I have

:26:33. > :26:37.been calling for this debate since October last year, and I am grateful

:26:38. > :26:42.that the honourable member. Has brought this forward, and that the

:26:43. > :26:46.business committee has granted its time. So much that we could talk

:26:47. > :26:52.about, so much that needs to be said. But we also need to listen. We

:26:53. > :26:58.can all stand up here and give passionate speeches about gangs and

:26:59. > :27:03.youth violence but the truth is that nothing will change. There is no

:27:04. > :27:07.speech that anyone of us could give today that will stop our young

:27:08. > :27:14.people from killing each other. That is the harsh reality. So what do we

:27:15. > :27:20.do? Accept that it happens and simply move on? No. Each one of us

:27:21. > :27:26.has an obligation to find solutions. I believe that these will come from

:27:27. > :27:30.us building a stronger, more resilient community base for this

:27:31. > :27:34.country, one where we look out for each other. What do we do, right

:27:35. > :27:42.another report, but words together and call it a policy? No. The

:27:43. > :27:47.government must realise that writing down 2500 words, giving it the grand

:27:48. > :27:52.title of ending gang violence and exploitation and calling it a policy

:27:53. > :27:57.simply will not work. There can be no more top-down solutions. Things

:27:58. > :28:02.have changed and we must listen and respond. There are some huge

:28:03. > :28:08.department is looking at this. The Home Office, the Ministry of

:28:09. > :28:13.Justice, none of them can possibly understand the issues being faced by

:28:14. > :28:19.young people on a daily basis. They all engage with young people but

:28:20. > :28:24.they do so in a tokenistic way. They do so to tick the box that says,

:28:25. > :28:33.must engage with young people. Dick! They do not engage in a youth led

:28:34. > :28:39.away -- tick. They do so in a lead youth way. This approach needs to

:28:40. > :28:42.change. Young people have the solutions. Our communities have the

:28:43. > :28:49.solutions. Because they are the ones facing the problems. We need a far

:28:50. > :28:54.reaching youth led consultation to really gets to grips with the core

:28:55. > :28:58.issues that underpin the reasons and impact of the violence that is

:28:59. > :29:05.present in young people's lives. And it isn't just about gangs. If you

:29:06. > :29:08.asked ten people what a gang is you will get ten different answers. And

:29:09. > :29:13.it's not just about youth violence. We need to drop the negative

:29:14. > :29:15.language. Young people are fed up with constantly being portrayed

:29:16. > :29:25.negatively by politicians and the media. David Lambie. On that point

:29:26. > :29:29.about what is a gang, is she surprised that in the document the

:29:30. > :29:33.government has put out they haven't even sought to define what they

:29:34. > :29:38.interpret as a gang. That would help further conversation. I agree with

:29:39. > :29:42.everything that the honourable member said, and indeed the

:29:43. > :29:46.document, as you said earlier with your speech, is so brief that it

:29:47. > :29:52.barely defines what anything is what any of the solutions should be. So

:29:53. > :30:00.moving back to my speech, we need to fundamentally transformed the

:30:01. > :30:04.debate. Further to the point made by my friend, the Honourable member for

:30:05. > :30:09.Tottenham, as I understand it, these groups often call themselves gangs,

:30:10. > :30:11.so that is part of the problem. They call themselves gangs and it is

:30:12. > :30:22.difficult to define it. The Honourable member makes a good

:30:23. > :30:25.point but we tag people in certain ways and define people as gangs when

:30:26. > :30:30.they could just be groups hanging about together. This is why in my

:30:31. > :30:36.speech am talking about transforming the way we talk about this debate.

:30:37. > :30:41.Par my friend Maggie is making a powerful speech. On that issue of

:30:42. > :30:45.gangs I belonged to a gang when I was younger, we had a uniform and a

:30:46. > :30:52.code and it was called the Girls' Brigade. So we do have to be clear

:30:53. > :30:54.when defining gangs but and is our responsibility as MPs to work with,

:30:55. > :30:58.I met with my borough commander this week and I will meet my borough

:30:59. > :31:02.commander every month to make sure we are all working together. To make

:31:03. > :31:05.sure we are listening to young people and making sure they are not

:31:06. > :31:12.criminalised or labelled from a very young age. I thank the Honourable

:31:13. > :31:16.member for the intervention and she makes an extremely good, strong

:31:17. > :31:24.point. We need to talk about violence in our society. We need to

:31:25. > :31:28.forget age for a second. When someone, anyone, gets so angry that

:31:29. > :31:34.they end up killing someone, we have failed as a society. We've failed

:31:35. > :31:39.the victim, we have failed the victim's friends and failed the

:31:40. > :31:43.victim's family. But we have also failed the killer. What a life they

:31:44. > :31:46.must have led that leads up to that moment. The moment they pull out a

:31:47. > :31:55.knife and stick it into another human being. And what is our cancer?

:31:56. > :31:59.Police, court, prison. We lock them up -- our answer. The minimum of two

:32:00. > :32:07.defenders and then they are released. Then what? -- the minimum

:32:08. > :32:11.of 25 yours. What have we provided, picture the scene, father out of

:32:12. > :32:16.work, mother and alcoholic, missed by social services due to cuts.

:32:17. > :32:20.Missed by youth workers because they no longer exist. Missed by the local

:32:21. > :32:28.police because of cutbacks. We are creating a perfect storm. Youth work

:32:29. > :32:36.cut, police cut, social services, cut. What hope do we have wireless

:32:37. > :32:40.government are in power? -- wide dish while this government is in

:32:41. > :32:45.power? Shrinking the state? Of course not. It is the very fabric of

:32:46. > :32:49.society that needs to be fixed to stop this. It is not the minister I

:32:50. > :32:51.held solely responsible. There is little she can do alone that will

:32:52. > :33:05.fix things. It is bigger than that. They spend close to ?1 billion on a

:33:06. > :33:10.citizenship scream, give it clever building. What then? Once young

:33:11. > :33:15.people have completed the scheme thatry in the same situation as they

:33:16. > :33:19.were before. ?1 billion of window-dressing. ?1 billion to

:33:20. > :33:23.change nothing. We don't need window-dressing. We need to

:33:24. > :33:27.fundamentally change the way we approach society. We need to change

:33:28. > :33:32.the narrative. We need to talk about peace. We need to talk about

:33:33. > :33:41.community. We need to promote positive images of our young people.

:33:42. > :33:45.We need to give them a voice. Now, running programmes for teenagers,

:33:46. > :33:49.it's nice, but it will not change much, not fundamentally. We need to

:33:50. > :33:53.start much younger. Only when we change the lives of the youngest in

:33:54. > :34:00.society will we see real change take place. Ask any psychologist, any

:34:01. > :34:04.educationalist. The younger we start to effect change, the younger we can

:34:05. > :34:09.start to make change. Let's change things. Let's change the record,

:34:10. > :34:15.change the narrative, change the future.

:34:16. > :34:19.This debate calls for a wide-ranging consultation, focussing on serious

:34:20. > :34:24.youth violence. I am sure this is something we can all get behind.

:34:25. > :34:28.Let's do this together. It is by working together that we will stop

:34:29. > :34:34.young people disappearing from our streets too early.

:34:35. > :34:42.Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I thank the honourable member for

:34:43. > :34:46.bringing forward this debate on something which has been seldom

:34:47. > :34:49.debated in this House. The reality is that the topic is not about gangs

:34:50. > :34:55.specifically. Not about young people, it is aboutvy lents and how

:34:56. > :34:59.we deal and how we -- about violence and how we deal with that violence

:35:00. > :35:03.kismt have a devastating effect on the communities and the young people

:35:04. > :35:08.involved. Not exclusively the young people, but it is their futures and

:35:09. > :35:12.their lives which hang in the balance while we debate the subject

:35:13. > :35:15.and change nothing at this point. Despite the difficulty which comes

:35:16. > :35:20.with legislating to tackle the problem, it is through legislation

:35:21. > :35:24.but through a variety of other measures that we can in fact deal

:35:25. > :35:30.with this issue. Scotland recognises the noo ed to tackle this issue and

:35:31. > :35:34.take measures, particularly in areas of Glasgow where incidents of

:35:35. > :35:40.violence was reoccurring, it was serious and in many cases it was

:35:41. > :35:45.severe. However... Will she give way? Thank you very much for giving

:35:46. > :35:51.way. The East End of Glasgow was once a by word for violence.

:35:52. > :35:56.Significant work and education and a cohesive approach has reduced gang

:35:57. > :36:01.membership and weapons possession. I am sure the honourable member would

:36:02. > :36:07.join me in congratulating the Scottish Government and the violent

:36:08. > :36:10.reduction unit have done sterling work to reduce gang violence in

:36:11. > :36:14.Glasgow. Will my honourable friend agree that members across the House

:36:15. > :36:23.could learn value lessons from the work done in Glasgow over the past

:36:24. > :36:28.decade? Absolutely. I thank you for bringing foreword that point. The

:36:29. > :36:33.project in 2008 in Glasgow East, where the worst incident of gang

:36:34. > :36:38.violence occurred, entitling Scotland one of the worst places in

:36:39. > :36:44.Western Europe, particularly Glasgow for violence. 600 gang members were

:36:45. > :36:48.presented with a choice, they could train others or they would face

:36:49. > :36:52."zero tolerance" approach and possibly a prison sentence. Through

:36:53. > :36:56.this work and through the on-going commitment and the support they

:36:57. > :37:00.received, we witnessed remarkable results. I have lens was halved.

:37:01. > :37:05.Weapon possession was down by 85%. This group have now gone on now to

:37:06. > :37:10.establish a charity to create employment for other young people.

:37:11. > :37:14.Madam Deputy Speaker, there are examples of where positive work can

:37:15. > :37:17.be done to reframe and reapproach this which is not simply through

:37:18. > :37:23.legislation but working with young people to provide the support that

:37:24. > :37:28.they require. Can I ask the honourable lady, what

:37:29. > :37:34.do they actually do to reduce the violence? What did they actually do

:37:35. > :37:38.on the streets? There was a number of projects, but this particular

:37:39. > :37:43.project focussed on bringing the young people in, engaging them,

:37:44. > :37:46.giving them opportunities to go into further education, training and

:37:47. > :37:50.support them throughout that process so they could reach sustainable

:37:51. > :37:55.employment as other routes out with the confines of the environment they

:37:56. > :37:59.had grown up in and where they themselves experienced violence or

:38:00. > :38:03.being party to that violence. This Government must recognise that where

:38:04. > :38:06.legislation is proving ineffective it must consider changing the course

:38:07. > :38:11.and lessons must be learned from where we have been successful. I

:38:12. > :38:15.assure the sentiments of the honourable member that young people

:38:16. > :38:22.have been given a bad name in this discussion. More often than not we

:38:23. > :38:24.Tarnoffish them where they are the perpetrators but don't seek to

:38:25. > :38:30.address the root cause of this issue, which I know many members of

:38:31. > :38:35.this House have addressed in their speeches. I have spoken to members

:38:36. > :38:39.who have spoken of the impact on their lives of heart-breaking

:38:40. > :38:42.accounts of loved ones and lost years and lost lives. The honourable

:38:43. > :38:49.member spoke about the level of violence in London. Houfr this is

:38:50. > :38:53.not unique to one particular area. It is not unique to one particular

:38:54. > :38:59.city. We must do more to address the policy. The fablingors of poverty, I

:39:00. > :39:05.have lens, drugs and the incident -- the factors of poverty, I have lens

:39:06. > :39:08.and drugs - it must be looked at in a holistic way to address these

:39:09. > :39:15.problems. If I can acknowledge that it was only ten years that Glasgow

:39:16. > :39:19.was named "the murder capital of Western Europe" something the then

:39:20. > :39:24.Scottish Executive could not ignore. Despite the number of convictions

:39:25. > :39:28.obtained in relation to crime, they were, there was still this need to

:39:29. > :39:33.tackle the root of these serious problems. In Scotland we have been

:39:34. > :39:38.successful in reducing the number of incidents T campaign known as Better

:39:39. > :39:42.Lives, raises awareness and seeks to education young people on the

:39:43. > :39:48.consequences and it has been one way in which the measure has contributed

:39:49. > :39:56.to the success in reducing violence. In my own constituency in South

:39:57. > :40:00.Lanarkshire, a local community established a drama venue, the

:40:01. > :40:05.Streets, produced by young people and many of whom have been involved

:40:06. > :40:09.in this violence, tacking issues of violence, knife crime, drug and

:40:10. > :40:15.alcohol abugs as well as sexual violence. In this hard-hitting way,

:40:16. > :40:19.this message can be delivered by young people to young people,

:40:20. > :40:25.addressing the ramification and consequences of actions they take on

:40:26. > :40:30.a daily basis on the streets, in which they are faced with.

:40:31. > :40:35.Madam Deputy Speaker, under the stewardship of the Justice

:40:36. > :40:38.Secretary, he focussed on early intervention on improving life

:40:39. > :40:44.chances and integration of police within the community, working with

:40:45. > :40:49.young people. This has resulted in a clear reduction in crime andvy lenss

:40:50. > :40:54.and let me be clear the incidents of violence continue to exist on a

:40:55. > :41:00.daily basis. We must tackle these issues. I hope the Government will

:41:01. > :41:05.take this into consideration. THE SPEAKER: Lynn Brown. Thank you.

:41:06. > :41:09.Can I make it clear that I was not around with the mods and rockers. I

:41:10. > :41:13.heard about it from my mum and dad. Just to be clear. Thank you Madam

:41:14. > :41:19.Deputy Speaker. A couple of years ago, I was driving home and to my

:41:20. > :41:22.horror, I saw the body of a young man curled upon the pavement around

:41:23. > :41:26.the corner from my home. Several police officers were with him and I

:41:27. > :41:30.could hear the sirens of ambulances that were on their way.

:41:31. > :41:36.That young man was the victim of a stabbing. He was clutching a stomach

:41:37. > :41:40.wound, but thankfully that proved not to be fatal. That incident shock

:41:41. > :41:45.me to the very core, it was so, so clous to my house and it wasn't even

:41:46. > :41:50.really late on a Friday night. There are some in my community who live

:41:51. > :41:55.every day with the pain and the worry as a result of knife crime and

:41:56. > :41:59.gang violence. They worry about their children's safety and they

:42:00. > :42:03.have been robbed of a basic sense of security.

:42:04. > :42:07.They want, they need weapons off our streets for themselves and they want

:42:08. > :42:13.their children to be safe. I therefore am really disturbed by

:42:14. > :42:18.the recent rise in recorded crime, up 9% in England and Wales last

:42:19. > :42:24.year, after a long downwards trend. If we look at the numbers in more

:42:25. > :42:32.detail, s involving a knife are up by 26%. Threats to kill by 20%. And

:42:33. > :42:36.attempted murder by 24%. Gun crime is also up by 4%. I think

:42:37. > :42:41.these numbers are absolutely chilling.

:42:42. > :42:46.I know we need to treat recorded crime numbers with caution. The

:42:47. > :42:50.police should not be discouraged from improving the reporting and

:42:51. > :42:55.recording of crime which can explain such fluctuations. Sadly there is

:42:56. > :42:59.also evidence that the increase in recorded knife crime reflects an

:43:00. > :43:04.increase in criminal activity using knifes. I give as an example the

:43:05. > :43:09.data from the London Ambulance Service, which shows a 9% rise in

:43:10. > :43:15.the number of incidents relating to assaults involving a knife. Not only

:43:16. > :43:22.do we have the knife, the rise in knife crime, but there is some

:43:23. > :43:25.evidence too that it is related to the number of gangs. Recent Home

:43:26. > :43:31.Office research suggests there's been a sharp rise in the number of

:43:32. > :43:34.gangs in the capital and the number of offences that the Metropolitan

:43:35. > :43:42.Police associations with gang activity has increased by 25% in the

:43:43. > :43:50.last three years. There are 225 recognised gangs in London. 36000

:43:51. > :43:53.gang members. In a city that is a relatively small amount of people.

:43:54. > :43:58.They account for 17% of seriousvy lenss within the capital.

:43:59. > :44:03.Give -- serious violence within the capital. Given these numbers it is

:44:04. > :44:08.clear that the member of strat ham is right to draw this -- Streatham

:44:09. > :44:11.is right to bring this to the attention of the House and call for

:44:12. > :44:18.a debate. There have been staggeringly good speeches on this

:44:19. > :44:22.debate. I really do pay tribute to my colleagues who have contributed

:44:23. > :44:28.to this debate. The stuff has been good. I am aware that the number of

:44:29. > :44:32.police services have chosen to focus on significant resources and

:44:33. > :44:38.activity to deal with knife crime. Last week I went to visit

:44:39. > :44:45.Bedfordshire Police to see how they have cut knife crime by 21%. Offices

:44:46. > :44:50.from Bedfordshire's operation Boson, told me they have adopted best

:44:51. > :44:53.practise from across the country and relentlessly tried to attack knife

:44:54. > :45:02.crime from every angle. They believe they have reduced the number of

:45:03. > :45:04.knifes on their streets by inspectors, carefully deployed

:45:05. > :45:10.surrender bins and the use of stop and search powers. They have also

:45:11. > :45:15.supported diversion schemes, in partnership with the likes of Luton

:45:16. > :45:21.Town football club, which offer alternative ways in which young

:45:22. > :45:28.people can deploy their abundance skills and energy. Despite their

:45:29. > :45:32.magnificent performance it is done on a shoestring. I was told that

:45:33. > :45:37.balancing all the demands of the service with ever decreasing funding

:45:38. > :45:40.and resources was like trying to balance spinning plates - always

:45:41. > :45:45.worried something would become unstuck. It is a clear testimony to

:45:46. > :45:48.his skill and determination and the commitment and professionalism of

:45:49. > :45:52.serving police officers in Bedfordshire, particularly those in

:45:53. > :45:56.Operation Boson, that the Bedfordshire Police service is so

:45:57. > :46:01.successful with their assault on knife crime. But we know when it

:46:02. > :46:05.comes to much crime, prevention is always better than cure. I know that

:46:06. > :46:09.some first-class work already goes on up and down the country to try

:46:10. > :46:14.and stop these crimes from happening. If you will forgive, I

:46:15. > :46:22.want to do a plug, because in Newham, we have a carry a basket

:46:23. > :46:30.board, not a initiative run by the Newham sports academy. It was

:46:31. > :46:36.started in tragic circumstances by Anthony after two of his friends

:46:37. > :46:40.were lost by knife crime. He helps young people Bihar necessarying the

:46:41. > :46:45.power of sport to provide a counter narrative to the poisonous idea that

:46:46. > :46:51.gang life is in some way glamorous. It is a sort of to be prevention

:46:52. > :46:55.service which works so incredibly well and the Home Office Select

:46:56. > :46:59.Committee thinks that we should be - thinks that should by-election

:47:00. > :47:06.panneded and commissioned far more consistently across the country.

:47:07. > :47:14.I thank my honourable friend for giving way and for her powerful

:47:15. > :47:16.speech. With regard to prevention I thank Reverend Rose Hudson who is

:47:17. > :47:22.present today for all the work she has done in Hackney around

:47:23. > :47:30.prevention and all the families she has comforted, who have gone through

:47:31. > :47:35.violent crime. Absolutely. It's these types of people with this type

:47:36. > :47:39.of commitment and programmes that require our support. They require

:47:40. > :47:44.staff who have expertise and require people who have the trust of their

:47:45. > :47:48.communities. They also, let's be serious, require investment. We

:47:49. > :47:52.discovered last month that the Home Office are pulling the plug on

:47:53. > :47:57.funding the ending youth gang violence peer review network. That's

:47:58. > :48:00.a practical programme which brings together academics, local government

:48:01. > :48:07.officials and police to develop and share knowledge and best practice

:48:08. > :48:12.about her to reduce gang violence. Governments last and will report of

:48:13. > :48:18.the peer review network described it as successful, low-cost, high

:48:19. > :48:22.impact. So why then is it being cut? Two weeks after the fact that it was

:48:23. > :48:26.being cut was leaked to the Guardian newspaper were told by the Minister

:48:27. > :48:34.that the network would be replaced by a new forum. The network had the

:48:35. > :48:38.resources necessary to establish it as best practice. Will this new

:48:39. > :48:42.forum be equally well resourced all its funding be reduced? I would be

:48:43. > :48:47.grateful of the minister today would answer some of these questions

:48:48. > :48:53.because let me tell her, Deborah and George Kinsella, the parents of the

:48:54. > :48:56.murdered teenager Ben Kinsella, said "We are extremely disappointed to

:48:57. > :49:02.hear the government is making further cuts to funding to tackle

:49:03. > :49:07.serious youth violence, when there are so many of us trying to make

:49:08. > :49:13.better things for others after losing our only children." The

:49:14. > :49:17.grandmother of 17-year-old Marcel, murdered by a gang on the Hoxton

:49:18. > :49:21.housing estate, said, "The government seems to be cutting

:49:22. > :49:25.everything. Children have nowhere to go. They need clubs to go to rather

:49:26. > :49:32.than hanging out on the streets where they can get into trouble.

:49:33. > :49:36.They get left behind." Mr Deputy Speaker, we have a situation where

:49:37. > :49:41.knife crime is creeping up. The undeniable truth is that this has

:49:42. > :49:45.happened after five years of deep cuts in spending on youth clubs and

:49:46. > :49:49.crime prevention. There will be naysayers who say it is nothing to

:49:50. > :49:54.do with the cuts. And that is why I fully is a port my Honourable

:49:55. > :49:59.friend, the Member for stratum's call for an all-party commission. We

:50:00. > :50:04.need to get to the bottom of white youth violence is on the increase so

:50:05. > :50:12.that we can begin to turn the tide. I ask the Minister, who is not about

:50:13. > :50:16.woman, can -- not a bad woman, can we please have an all-party

:50:17. > :50:21.commission? Please? LAUGHTER

:50:22. > :50:25.Goodness me, I don't think the Shadow minister has ever been quite

:50:26. > :50:30.so nice to me across the dispatch box! I don't think it will ever be

:50:31. > :50:34.repeated! I am speechless! She will be glad to know that it won't be

:50:35. > :50:38.full long that I'm speechless. Can I start by congratulating the

:50:39. > :50:45.honourable member for stratum has a curing this important debate. --

:50:46. > :50:51.stratum! Stratford is another place. His perseverance in getting this

:50:52. > :50:54.debate after it was unable to take place due to time restrictions,

:50:55. > :51:01.finger number of urgent questions answered, it shows how determined he

:51:02. > :51:07.is to raise and highlight this issue. His long-standing interest in

:51:08. > :51:13.tackling gangs and youth violence is well-known and I congratulate him

:51:14. > :51:16.for debate and also all right honourable and Honourable members

:51:17. > :51:18.who have taken part in the debate. We've heard some powerful

:51:19. > :51:25.contributions with some in-depth local knowledge. That is so key to

:51:26. > :51:30.tackling this issue. I want to start by issuing the House that tackling

:51:31. > :51:34.gangs and youth violence is a priority for this government. I have

:51:35. > :51:38.met victims of youth violence, of gang violence, I've spent time with

:51:39. > :51:42.those victims and I know the devastating impact it can have on

:51:43. > :51:48.families, and diminishes and on young people, whose lives were ahead

:51:49. > :51:53.of them, and maybe are no longer, and we must remember that that is

:51:54. > :51:58.the case. We have heard many references to the government 's

:51:59. > :52:02.approach. I think if the House will allow me, we will spend a free

:52:03. > :52:05.minutes talking about what we've done on this matter and what the

:52:06. > :52:11.future holds. The House will know that the government published its

:52:12. > :52:16.refreshed approach to tackling gangs in a paper. Only a paper. I want to

:52:17. > :52:19.come back to that point later. Ending gang violence and

:52:20. > :52:23.exploitation. The paper sets out on how the government 's approach is

:52:24. > :52:27.focused on reducing and ending gang violence including knife crime and

:52:28. > :52:30.preventing the exploitation of vulnerable individuals by gang. It

:52:31. > :52:37.builds on the programme we established in 2012, ending gang

:52:38. > :52:41.violence. At the time we established the programme so many areas were

:52:42. > :52:46.only just starting to understand the issue of gangs in the area and the

:52:47. > :52:50.programme is about getting to understand the problems and build

:52:51. > :52:56.local resilience. It was due to end in March last year but because we

:52:57. > :53:00.are starting to see new ways that gangs operating, in particular the

:53:01. > :53:04.exploitation of vulnerable young people, we extended the programme

:53:05. > :53:07.for a further 12 months so that we could understand where gangs

:53:08. > :53:12.operating and could help local areas to build that resilience. Of course

:53:13. > :53:16.I will give way. I think the Minister for giving way on this

:53:17. > :53:21.point. I am not sure if it tallies with exactly what she is referring

:53:22. > :53:24.to up the moment Dexter the government announced in January that

:53:25. > :53:29.it was extending its youth violence and gangs programme to areas that

:53:30. > :53:34.included Great Grimsby and that is a surprise to me. Because I was not

:53:35. > :53:40.aware that we had gangs of the nature that have been described by

:53:41. > :53:42.the Honourable member for stratum. A subsequent conversation with my

:53:43. > :53:45.Police and Crime Commissioner indicated that perhaps it was along

:53:46. > :53:51.the lines that the honourable member for Yeovil mentioned earlier that it

:53:52. > :53:55.was about serious and organised crime. I wondered what criteria was

:53:56. > :54:02.used to decide the towns included in the programme. Thank you. Sorry! Can

:54:03. > :54:06.I come to those points shortly? I hope to address them in my speech.

:54:07. > :54:11.She makes an important point. The original programmes which included

:54:12. > :54:15.the peer review network, its workers now complete. Local resilience has

:54:16. > :54:19.been built, local areas have had the peer review. We are now past the

:54:20. > :54:24.stage of understanding and we now need to get into delivery. That is

:54:25. > :54:28.why we have the new programme. And the new areas coming in are areas

:54:29. > :54:33.where, as part of that peer review with that and identified where there

:54:34. > :54:37.might be problems and we spoke to local authorities, local police

:54:38. > :54:41.chiefs, to find out whether they wanted to be part of the new

:54:42. > :54:45.programme. This is about helping local areas to understand the

:54:46. > :54:50.problems, understand how best practice might work, and try to give

:54:51. > :54:55.them the support they need. I seek two interventions coming my way. I

:54:56. > :55:00.will take the first from the honourable member who is my member

:55:01. > :55:06.of Parliament when I'm in London, the honourable member for

:55:07. > :55:09.Westminster North and then Chelmsford and stratum. I wondered,

:55:10. > :55:14.under the terms of the partnerships that you describe is, whether she

:55:15. > :55:17.feels those local authorities that have withdrawn all their resources

:55:18. > :55:22.for the youth service will be able to enter the partnership? It's a

:55:23. > :55:27.local areas to determine what works best for them. We in the Home Office

:55:28. > :55:39.will help them with resources and best practice. Now, Streatham. I am

:55:40. > :55:41.grateful to the Honourable member for responding on behalf of the

:55:42. > :55:46.government. I don't accept that the work is done because the nature of

:55:47. > :55:50.what is going on is changing. The programme started in 2012. The

:55:51. > :55:53.extent to which social media is used by the groups of young people

:55:54. > :55:57.perpetrating these acts is different. The nature of the groups

:55:58. > :56:01.as I said in my opening remarks is different. So I don't think that you

:56:02. > :56:05.can consider that the work is done and the second point I was going to

:56:06. > :56:10.make is in terms of what it's been replaced with, the peer review

:56:11. > :56:14.network seems to have been replaced by a two civil servants manning a

:56:15. > :56:20.mailbox. I hope not but I am told by insiders that is the case. This is

:56:21. > :56:23.what unconcerned it is disbanding. I want to assure the honourable

:56:24. > :56:27.gentleman this is not the case. This week that it steps to get more

:56:28. > :56:31.involvement in the forum we are establishing. I'll come back to

:56:32. > :56:33.that. If I could take the opportunity to meet with the

:56:34. > :56:37.honourable gentleman, I think there are many things we need to discuss

:56:38. > :56:42.and we don't have time today. Might right honourable friend from

:56:43. > :56:47.Chelmsford and then the minister. Might I think the Minister about the

:56:48. > :56:51.point of liaison with local authorities for the work that she

:56:52. > :56:56.and her officials have done with regard to the horrific knife crime

:56:57. > :57:01.in Chelmsford over the last 18 months, and the way that her

:57:02. > :57:05.department, led by her, have been so willing to liaise with Essex Police

:57:06. > :57:10.to see what more can be done to help overcome this problem for our

:57:11. > :57:13.community. Can I thank my right honourable friend for that comment,

:57:14. > :57:18.I know he wanted to take part in this debate and has been involved in

:57:19. > :57:21.an important piece of work. I thank him for being here, for his

:57:22. > :57:26.contribution and the work he does in Johnson and come he's right, the

:57:27. > :57:30.work of Essex Police supported by the Home Office has been very

:57:31. > :57:34.important in tackling the issue of county lines which my honourable

:57:35. > :57:39.friend from Colchester raised. Says I have been so nice to the minister

:57:40. > :57:42.today may be she would extend the courtesy of inviting me to the

:57:43. > :57:47.meetings on these issues because I would be very grateful. I would be

:57:48. > :57:51.delighted to meet with the honourable lady. I will probably

:57:52. > :57:56.regret this and so will my officials but may I extend the offer to any

:57:57. > :58:00.member of the House who wants to dog about their local area and what is

:58:01. > :58:04.happening because I am more than happy to spend time with Honourable

:58:05. > :58:07.members to help them in terms of building local resilience. Because

:58:08. > :58:12.as the honourable lady from Lewisham and depth and said, this is about

:58:13. > :58:16.local solutions, not about top-down, it's not about the government

:58:17. > :58:22.imposing -- Lewisham and Deptford. This is about local... Thank you for

:58:23. > :58:27.agreeing with me, yet part of the problem is having the funding to

:58:28. > :58:33.deliver those local solutions. Outcome onto funding shortly. I'm

:58:34. > :58:37.trying to be nonparty political in terms of some of Michael Mansell. I

:58:38. > :58:42.may have to make some comments shortly if I am not allowed to

:58:43. > :58:47.continue -- in terms of some of the comments I am making. I do want to

:58:48. > :58:50.work with on the board members from across the House. I know it's a

:58:51. > :58:54.problem that they face in their communities and I want to make sure

:58:55. > :58:58.the Home Office extends what support we can to getting a local solution

:58:59. > :59:02.right for their areas. That will not be a top-down solution and will not

:59:03. > :59:08.be one size fits all. I give way again. If we have had the peer

:59:09. > :59:12.review stage and we know what works might the ministers say more about

:59:13. > :59:18.what works, where it is published and why she thinks the figures are

:59:19. > :59:21.getting worse across the country. I will briefly address that and then

:59:22. > :59:25.perhaps make progress because I am conscious that there is an extremely

:59:26. > :59:30.important debate on Welsh affairs that many members want to take part

:59:31. > :59:36.in. In terms of the figures and the honourable lady from West Ham, did

:59:37. > :59:42.on this, the recorded crime, we want to see his crimes recorded. We want

:59:43. > :59:48.to see the police know about these crimes, we want to does and what is

:59:49. > :59:50.happening. I went to the A E Department of the hospital in the

:59:51. > :59:57.constituency of the lady from Dulwich was booked earlier. It is

:59:58. > :00:02.tragic that we only find, the first of the Trinity to get that teachable

:00:03. > :00:07.moment with the young person is when they come to A E, not in an

:00:08. > :00:12.ambulance because gangs are not phoning ambulances, they turn up in

:00:13. > :00:16.private cars, dumped at A E and that's the first opportunity we have

:00:17. > :00:24.as any agency to get into contact with the young people. If I can pay

:00:25. > :00:27.tribute to Read Thread, who provide advocates are young people at A E

:00:28. > :00:31.departments across London, those young people's advocates are so

:00:32. > :00:35.important at getting to not just the young person who's been the victim

:00:36. > :00:39.of the attack but also their families when they come to visit,

:00:40. > :00:45.keeping them in hospital and getting someone they trust to speak to them

:00:46. > :00:49.might be the first opportunity they have had, but we need to get there

:00:50. > :00:54.sooner and it's about education, schools, working with Honourable

:00:55. > :00:58.people. I will speak briefly about the revised programme to talk about

:00:59. > :01:02.approaches we are using on that matter. But I want those hidden

:01:03. > :01:06.crimes that are not recorded at the moment to be reported and recorded.

:01:07. > :01:11.So that we can understand what this problem is. I sense that the

:01:12. > :01:15.honourable lady from Brent Central wants to intervene. Forgive me, this

:01:16. > :01:19.will be my final intervention because I am conscious that I need

:01:20. > :01:27.to make progress. Thank you forgiving way. IQ Madam Deputy

:01:28. > :01:31.Speaker. My hesitation was, I'm not sure if I understand the response in

:01:32. > :01:34.its entirety because there are plenty of opportunities to intervene

:01:35. > :01:40.and a lot of organisations and people in Brent and elsewhere who

:01:41. > :01:46.will intervene in very early stages. Education is key. Poverty is key.

:01:47. > :01:49.Early years is key. All of these are opportunities to intervene. So I am

:01:50. > :01:58.hoping that the Minister will get to that in her response. There are many

:01:59. > :02:02.opportunities for intervention, but those opportunities are not taken

:02:03. > :02:07.until the young person is found in A and that is my frustration. If I

:02:08. > :02:09.can pay tribute to her council in Branscombe I met the council leader

:02:10. > :02:16.there and learned about the work they are doing -- counsel in Brent

:02:17. > :02:21.and I met. It is about understanding what the problem was and it was a

:02:22. > :02:25.peer review which helped them, and now it is about delivery, local

:02:26. > :02:29.delivery. It is about poverty, they spoke about the housing estates and

:02:30. > :02:38.the work they are doing in Kilburn and the recreation ground, which am

:02:39. > :02:41.familiar with. The South Kilburn estate work they are doing to

:02:42. > :02:49.transform that state and to make it into a place to live where gangs

:02:50. > :02:53.cannot be allowed to foster, that is incredibly important, and I paid

:02:54. > :02:57.tribute to Brent and many other local authorities around the country

:02:58. > :03:01.who are working very hard in this area and I hope through the work the

:03:02. > :03:05.Home Office is providing and the support we provide many others will

:03:06. > :03:10.be able to take advantage of these points. If I can make progress and

:03:11. > :03:20.maybe we can get onto the important Welsh affairs debate. I will just

:03:21. > :03:23.mention, though, while I understand the honourable gentleman from

:03:24. > :03:26.Tottenham might be concerned at an eight page government document, it

:03:27. > :03:30.might be the first time anyone has ever told me they thought by

:03:31. > :03:40.government document was too short. Usually we are accused of having not

:03:41. > :03:42.enough substance underneath. The ending gang violence and

:03:43. > :03:46.exploitation document has been widely welcomed and we work with

:03:47. > :03:49.many organisations to develop this approach, it is the high-level

:03:50. > :03:55.approach that the paper sets out, but underneath is a lot of work and

:03:56. > :04:02.it has been welcomed by many, safer London, Met police, many others have

:04:03. > :04:10.welcomed this document. If I can mention the point that the woman

:04:11. > :04:15.from Grimsby made, this is something the local areas have said they want

:04:16. > :04:18.to be part of, they want to be part of the programme and they want to

:04:19. > :04:23.know what learning there is and they want to understand the partnership

:04:24. > :04:28.working will stop they want to understand the partnership working

:04:29. > :04:33.with A departments, so vital that we get the information as quickly as

:04:34. > :04:37.possible. I will take the point about definition, the definition of

:04:38. > :04:42.a gang is set out for gang injunction purposes in the serious

:04:43. > :04:45.crime act 2015 and that is why there is no separate definition, it is a

:04:46. > :04:52.known definition, set out in legislation. Our new programme has

:04:53. > :04:56.six priorities. This is based on the fact that we know that gangs

:04:57. > :05:03.operating in more covert ways and differently and that is why our

:05:04. > :05:14.first priority is county lines. The points that have been made from

:05:15. > :05:20.several people, the county lines point, the point about how we help

:05:21. > :05:23.the most vulnerable in society who are being exploited by urban street

:05:24. > :05:28.gangs to run drugs and for many other things. The work she does on

:05:29. > :05:32.missing people, which I'm a supporter of, missing people and be

:05:33. > :05:37.missing people charity, that is vital in helping to find Beijing

:05:38. > :05:42.people, getting the information, about what happens to these people

:05:43. > :05:48.when they are missing -- in helping to find these missing people. If I

:05:49. > :05:52.can say I point about trafficking and modern slavery, this is very

:05:53. > :05:58.much modern slavery, these are trafficking offences and I hope the

:05:59. > :06:04.prosecution services and others will use those modern slavery offences to

:06:05. > :06:06.get convictions because if I want a conviction, I want to stop this

:06:07. > :06:11.happening, and the most likely way to get a conviction is to modern

:06:12. > :06:17.slavery offences, and so I'm all for that. The second priority in the

:06:18. > :06:20.programme is about protecting vulnerable locations and this links

:06:21. > :06:26.to the point about missing and county lines, we need to get to

:06:27. > :06:33.those places where vulnerable people are being targeted. People referral

:06:34. > :06:36.units, care homes, places where young people who are very vulnerable

:06:37. > :06:42.to exploitation finds themselves and I will come now to the point that

:06:43. > :06:47.was made about young offenders institutes, this is a place, a

:06:48. > :06:54.vulnerable location. The Ministry of Justice has asked Charlie Taylor to

:06:55. > :06:58.lead a review on this matter and I want to see the results, but also

:06:59. > :07:02.make sure that we understand and that those young offenders

:07:03. > :07:05.institutes understand that the vulnerable young people are being

:07:06. > :07:12.exploited and we need to make sure that they understand that point and

:07:13. > :07:17.take action to stop that. The third priority, reducing violence

:07:18. > :07:20.including knife crime, and I have listened to many of the

:07:21. > :07:24.contributions about knife crime and I agree, we do not want to see

:07:25. > :07:28.knives on our streets, and there are many offences and measures which

:07:29. > :07:33.police trading standards authorities Kante, but we are looking very

:07:34. > :07:36.carefully at what else we can do to make sure the authorities have all

:07:37. > :07:41.the weapons they need to take knives of our streets stash the police

:07:42. > :07:46.trading standards authorities can do. We have got to make sure that

:07:47. > :07:49.retailers understand the role they have in a responsible society to

:07:50. > :07:55.make sure that knives do not hit our streets. The fourth priority, gang

:07:56. > :08:00.associated women and girls, we need to safeguard them, many members have

:08:01. > :08:07.mentioned this, it was mentioned by the vulnerable lady from West

:08:08. > :08:10.Norwood and the members from Streatham and Ottman, they mentioned

:08:11. > :08:16.about girls, the very idea that girls think it is acceptable to be

:08:17. > :08:19.exploited in a line-up by various gang members, that they think this

:08:20. > :08:26.is something they should do, this is absolutely wrong and I'm pleased

:08:27. > :08:28.that the government and I hope that members notice this announcement

:08:29. > :08:34.earlier in the week, the government has committed ?400,000 to young

:08:35. > :08:40.people's advocates to work with all young people but especially girls

:08:41. > :08:46.and young women, to try and get to the young women and to educate them

:08:47. > :08:50.and give them the experience and knowledge they need to say no. The

:08:51. > :08:55.fifth priority, promote early intervention, a point which was

:08:56. > :08:58.raised by many members. My friend from Colchester spoke about how we

:08:59. > :09:06.have got to get in early and educate people. Finally, meaningful

:09:07. > :09:11.alternatives, the member from Streatham made that point, we need

:09:12. > :09:16.to show young people, it is not just a windy Churchill, it has got to be

:09:17. > :09:19.a meaningful alternative to gangs so young people do not think that is

:09:20. > :09:26.the only place they can go -- windy church hall. I want to touch on some

:09:27. > :09:34.of the points which were raised specifically. If I can deal with the

:09:35. > :09:38.independent commission point, I'm looking forward to discussing this

:09:39. > :09:42.board with the honourable gentleman. I'm not convinced at this stage that

:09:43. > :09:48.a national independent all-party commission is the best way to

:09:49. > :09:51.approach this. We need to get into delivery and make sure that the

:09:52. > :09:57.programme is allowed to deliver, but I do know that local commissions

:09:58. > :10:00.have been set up, I met the PCC from the West Midlands yesterday, and he

:10:01. > :10:05.is setting up his own local commission and I would encourage

:10:06. > :10:09.members to do that work locally, because there will be, and the

:10:10. > :10:12.reason I hesitate regarding the National commission, we have said

:10:13. > :10:17.there are different reasons and different things going on. The

:10:18. > :10:22.member from Lewisham made that point, young people, local young

:10:23. > :10:25.people, local communities, they need to be part of this, so I think local

:10:26. > :10:30.work and local commissions where appropriate, I would encourage. I'm

:10:31. > :10:33.not convinced a national commission is the right time, but I'm looking

:10:34. > :10:40.forward to meeting the honourable member. Can I also asked the

:10:41. > :10:46.honourable lady from Stockport about her suggestion. Civil orders have

:10:47. > :10:48.been successful and we know they are used, they are used when we sit we

:10:49. > :10:51.do not have criminal levels of evidence and I would be very

:10:52. > :10:56.interested in talking to her about bat. I have many more things I could

:10:57. > :11:00.say and many more points I could make but I'm conscious of time and I

:11:01. > :11:03.will conclude by repeating my thanks and congratulations to the member

:11:04. > :11:08.from Streatham for securing the debate and for all members who have

:11:09. > :11:13.contributed to the debate and I want to finish by saying that the

:11:14. > :11:18.government and I regard this issue as one which is very important. It

:11:19. > :11:20.is a continuing priority and we will continue to work with national,

:11:21. > :11:30.local partners to address these issues. I'm very grateful for

:11:31. > :11:34.calling me for a couple of minutes, just to reflect on the debate. I

:11:35. > :11:38.want to thank all the members who have participated in what I think

:11:39. > :11:42.has been a fantastic debate and has done great credit to our House and

:11:43. > :11:47.sends out a message to those watching that this is a matter that

:11:48. > :11:52.the House of Commons take seriously. What has been so interesting, many

:11:53. > :11:57.different points which have not been made before, the point which was

:11:58. > :12:00.made by the member for Chester about data collection and I could go

:12:01. > :12:07.through the very good points which were made by my friends from

:12:08. > :12:11.Tottenham, Stockport, Lewisham, Greenwich and others. I heard the

:12:12. > :12:16.minister said she was not convinced at the moment for a national

:12:17. > :12:22.commission, but I'm pleased she has not ruled it out. I agree with her,

:12:23. > :12:26.it would be useful if localities did their own commissions, and we have

:12:27. > :12:31.already done that in Lambeth. Why would be useful to have a national

:12:32. > :12:37.commission, one of the things we try to do, we try to do this to the

:12:38. > :12:41.London gangs for, but I think it is useful to share best practice and

:12:42. > :12:45.see what is happening -- we tried to do this in the London gangs Forum.

:12:46. > :12:50.The National commission shows that we take it seriously, in the same

:12:51. > :12:53.way that we have commissions in respect of other subjects, but it

:12:54. > :12:56.would also be useful to share best practice around the country, but it

:12:57. > :13:02.has been a great debate and what we want to do after this debate is to

:13:03. > :13:06.reassure those watching that this is not the end of the matter, this is

:13:07. > :13:10.very much the start of this campaign, by this Parliament, and we

:13:11. > :13:15.will not rest until we see an end to the violence on our streets and we

:13:16. > :13:27.see the opportunities and horizons widened for our young people who are

:13:28. > :13:42.our future. The question is, say aye, on the contrary, say noe. The

:13:43. > :13:47.ayes have it. And now we have a new point of order. I'm amazed to see

:13:48. > :13:53.that the Secretary of State for Wales is not in his place of this

:13:54. > :13:59.debate, despite making a very important announcement to

:14:00. > :14:02.fundamental changes to the Wales Bill, with the Wales Office suite

:14:03. > :14:09.sing at the time that members could wait until today to debate these

:14:10. > :14:12.changes -- tweeting. Can I ask if you have been made aware that the

:14:13. > :14:17.sector real estate plans to attend the debate to answer the very

:14:18. > :14:26.important questions? -- that the secretary of state. The occupants of

:14:27. > :14:30.the chair has no authority to require ministers to be here for a

:14:31. > :14:36.debate such as this, as you know. Mr Speaker has said on many occasions

:14:37. > :14:42.and I agree with him, it is very important that this House of Commons

:14:43. > :14:47.is the body that holds ministers to account and that speeches and

:14:48. > :14:53.announcements should be made here. I'm not aware of what the Secretary

:14:54. > :14:56.of State said on Monday. Or indeed what he is doing today, but I'm

:14:57. > :15:03.aware that a very capable minister is here at the dispatch box and on

:15:04. > :15:10.behalf of the House I trust that he will answer the questions which the

:15:11. > :15:15.members will put to him, and draw to the attention of the Secretary of

:15:16. > :15:20.State anything which should be drawn to his attention, which will be the

:15:21. > :15:26.whole debate. Mr Speaker has made very clear and I reiterate this,

:15:27. > :15:35.ministers making announcements should make them in this house and

:15:36. > :15:38.not anywhere else. Not only am I concerned about the Secretary of

:15:39. > :15:43.State being absent for this debate, I'm also concerned that he was

:15:44. > :15:53.absent on the Saint Davids day reception held earlier. Maybe he has

:15:54. > :15:58.died or resigned, maybe you can shed some light. The chair has no

:15:59. > :16:07.responsibility for receptions held outside this House. Further to the

:16:08. > :16:11.point of order. I can advise the House that the Secretary of State as

:16:12. > :16:19.Parliamentary business elsewhere. I would also advise... He has also

:16:20. > :16:25.explained that that is the case, as I understand it. The Prime Minister

:16:26. > :16:29.and the Secretary of State hosted a very successful Saint Davids day

:16:30. > :16:37.reception on Saint Davids Day at number ten earlier this week, I

:16:38. > :16:43.should say. Order, order. We have no further discussion of this matter.

:16:44. > :16:46.It is not my responsibility to explain where the Secretary of State

:16:47. > :16:51.is, the minister has given an explanation and that is an end to

:16:52. > :16:57.the matter. Point of order, sir. Is this different?

:16:58. > :17:03.It concerns communication from the Wales Office on Monday of this week.

:17:04. > :17:07.I tweeted when the Secretary of State made a closed announcement to

:17:08. > :17:11.journalists that I was surprised that this matter was not being made

:17:12. > :17:18.in a statement to the House of Commons. And in response to that

:17:19. > :17:23.treat I received a response from the Welsh office that I would be able to

:17:24. > :17:29.raise these matters today with the Secretary of State. Now it seems to

:17:30. > :17:35.me Madam Deputy Speaker that it is inappropriate for the Wales Office

:17:36. > :17:39.to communicate in that way. This is the same point of order and if the

:17:40. > :17:43.Secretary of State chooses that the Minister should answer these

:17:44. > :17:46.questions today and respond to the points which I am sure that the

:17:47. > :17:51.honourable gentleman will make in due course, it is up to the

:17:52. > :17:58.Secretary of State and the Minister. We will continue with the debate. Mr

:17:59. > :18:03.Stephen Kinnock. Thank you madam Speaker. I can confirm that I met

:18:04. > :18:09.with the Secretary of State today discussing the crisis in the Welsh

:18:10. > :18:13.steel industry so he was available today for discussions. Madam Speaker

:18:14. > :18:16.I beg to move that there's House is considered Welsh affairs. It is a

:18:17. > :18:20.great honour to open the debate today and I am grateful to the

:18:21. > :18:26.backbench committee for allowing a Saint Davids Day debate. This debate

:18:27. > :18:30.offers us and chats to speak about the challenges and opportunities

:18:31. > :18:34.affecting Wales. I am sure that members will touch upon a range of

:18:35. > :18:40.matters. I want to open by concentrating on what I believe some

:18:41. > :18:43.of the most salient political, cultural and economic matters facing

:18:44. > :18:48.our culture and people today. 2016 will be and civil Wales. Firstly we

:18:49. > :18:55.are on course for a Championship deciding clash with England in the

:18:56. > :18:58.six Nations! I will remind the House that it is traditional for Wales to

:18:59. > :19:03.win the six Nations after World Cup! Perhaps the most momentous occasion

:19:04. > :19:06.will be when their round ball counterparts make their debut in the

:19:07. > :19:12.European Championships in France this summer. It has been 58 years

:19:13. > :19:16.since we've been in an international finals. Far too long for a country

:19:17. > :19:21.that has produced footballing greats like cultured, Ian Rush, Hughes, and

:19:22. > :19:28.Ryan Giggs to be absent from a major footballing tournament. Together

:19:29. > :19:31.stronger was the mantra of the supporters and the teams through

:19:32. > :19:37.qualification. A philosophy that can be applied across many of the issues

:19:38. > :19:41.I wish to speak of today. When Gareth Bale, Ashley Williams and

:19:42. > :19:44.Aaron Ramsey flying the flag for Wales in that contest campaign is

:19:45. > :19:49.for this House and across Wales will make the case for Wales and the

:19:50. > :19:54.whole of the UK to remain in the European Union. We'll do it with a

:19:55. > :19:59.special zeal. Wales is a net beneficiary of EU funding. Our

:20:00. > :20:05.membership of the European Union is vital to our economy, security, and

:20:06. > :20:09.place in the world. A bricks and of Campbell, for Wales, putting jobs,

:20:10. > :20:13.trade and therefore the safety of our communities at risk. The last

:20:14. > :20:17.thing we need now is the instability which the possibility of secession

:20:18. > :20:21.from the EU inflicts upon a country which already endures economic

:20:22. > :20:28.fragility and social disadvantage. I will give way. I'm very grateful to

:20:29. > :20:33.the honourable gentleman forgiving way on that point. Would he accept

:20:34. > :20:37.the general figure that the UK makes the net payment of around ?8.5

:20:38. > :20:44.billion each into the European Union? That's a net payment, so if

:20:45. > :20:48.that money were taken, and 5% of it handed to Wales, Wales would

:20:49. > :20:55.actually become a net beneficiary from exiting European Union! I thank

:20:56. > :20:58.the honourable gentleman for his intervention. I'm afraid he's

:20:59. > :21:03.confusing the budget of the European Union with the British economy. The

:21:04. > :21:07.British economy benefits to the tune of ?227 billion of exports secure in

:21:08. > :21:13.exports to the EU thanks to its membership of the single market. If

:21:14. > :21:20.you want value for money 9 billion compared to 227 billion looks like a

:21:21. > :21:26.good deal to me. More immediately, many share my concerns about the

:21:27. > :21:30.months between now and June 23. And asks whether it is realistic to

:21:31. > :21:35.expect rational decisions to be made around a Cabinet table that is beset

:21:36. > :21:41.by mutual loathing. And as of thousands of Welsh jobs are linked

:21:42. > :21:44.to EU membership. It is our largest source of investment, bringing

:21:45. > :21:48.growth, employment, and higher wages. Much of our global investment

:21:49. > :21:52.from outside the EU is made possible by the fact that inside the EU we

:21:53. > :21:56.provide a gateway to the single market. That is a major reason for

:21:57. > :22:01.International firms to locate in Wales including Tata Steel, in my

:22:02. > :22:05.constituency. As honourable and right Honourable members will know,

:22:06. > :22:10.Mr Speaker, the Welsh steel industry finds itself in a precarious

:22:11. > :22:14.position. And nowhere in Wales is this felt more acutely than in my

:22:15. > :22:18.constituency. The Port Talbot works are the core of our local economy

:22:19. > :22:22.and community. So the announcement at the start of the year of 750 job

:22:23. > :22:27.losses was a bitter blow, which will of course be compounded as the

:22:28. > :22:31.impact starts to be felt through the supply chain and the wider local

:22:32. > :22:36.economy. While the steel crisis may be in part the result of global

:22:37. > :22:39.trends and events, what cannot be ignored is that the government has

:22:40. > :22:44.been asleep at the wheel for the last five years. Far more could and

:22:45. > :22:49.should have been done to give the British steel industry fighting

:22:50. > :22:54.chance. From the blatantly unfair, distorted dumping of Chinese steel

:22:55. > :22:57.to the incompetent and complacent management of public procurement,

:22:58. > :23:04.this government has failed to give justified support or stimulus to

:23:05. > :23:08.steal. I will give way. He has been very generous. Can I just draw his

:23:09. > :23:12.mind back to the evidence we took from management and from the unions

:23:13. > :23:16.about those terrible job losses? And the fact that they both said that

:23:17. > :23:24.the European Union had delayed bringing in tariffs on Chinese steel

:23:25. > :23:27.and also they'd taken a long time to agree the compensation package which

:23:28. > :23:31.the governor and had to ask permission from the EU four, to give

:23:32. > :23:36.to companies like Tata Steel some of the money already taken in taxation

:23:37. > :23:40.as a result of energy taxes. I think the honourable gentleman for his

:23:41. > :23:45.intervention. What I would say is, membership of the European Union is

:23:46. > :23:49.defined by how you engage. And how you work with partners in Brussels,

:23:50. > :23:55.both in the European Commission and in the other mother states. What we

:23:56. > :23:59.have is a government that recognised in 2011 that they should be an

:24:00. > :24:02.energy intensive industries compensation package yet failed to

:24:03. > :24:07.knock on the door in Brussels and make it happen. How can it be that

:24:08. > :24:10.it took five years to deliver that steel? And when it comes to the

:24:11. > :24:16.dumping of steel British government is the ringleader of a set of other

:24:17. > :24:22.member states that is not wanting to reform the anti-dumping laws, so we

:24:23. > :24:26.have a lesser duty rule, and as a cheerleader for China, lobbying for

:24:27. > :24:31.China to have market economy status, I'm afraid we need to draw a line

:24:32. > :24:34.and under this constant scapegoating of Brussels, the blame should be

:24:35. > :24:42.laid squarely at the door of No ten at Downing St and the rest of the

:24:43. > :24:45.Cabinet. They have failed to engage with Brussels in a way to win

:24:46. > :24:51.British business as some on the other states do, Madam Speaker. This

:24:52. > :25:05.is because the government operates in a fog of less if there - laissez

:25:06. > :25:09.faire ideology. Yet the government can only bread if regulated. Just as

:25:10. > :25:13.the offside rule in football makes of their competition so the steel

:25:14. > :25:19.industry needs the right regulatory framework so it can contribute in

:25:20. > :25:22.conditions on a level playing field. Instead the government 's blind

:25:23. > :25:29.faith in a free market is lobbying for China to give them status and

:25:30. > :25:33.support the scrapping of the lesser duty rules. Madam Speaker, I wish to

:25:34. > :25:37.state with the utmost gravity that if speedy action isn't taken to

:25:38. > :25:43.prevent the dumping of Chinese steel, we will witness the beginning

:25:44. > :25:49.of the end of UK steel-making. The government no full well that this

:25:50. > :25:53.industry is hanging by a thread. By the free market dogma nor cosying up

:25:54. > :25:58.to Beijing should be allowed to impede their patriotically due to

:25:59. > :26:01.emanate other EU countries and stunned at the men and women who are

:26:02. > :26:06.the backbone of the British economy. The Minister for enterprise and the

:26:07. > :26:09.Minister for Business, Innovation and Skills recently visited my

:26:10. > :26:13.constituency. I hope they will return so that they can go to the

:26:14. > :26:18.homes of some of my constituents who have lost their jobs. I hope they

:26:19. > :26:22.will close men, women and families in the eye and explain themselves.

:26:23. > :26:27.The SmackDown they will look them in the eye. Claim that they are

:26:28. > :26:31.supporting the steel industry while fighting behind close doors against

:26:32. > :26:35.the lifting of the lesser duty rule and for market economy status for

:26:36. > :26:39.China. Explain how they can claim publicly that they are changing

:26:40. > :26:45.public procurement to maximise the use of British steel while allowing

:26:46. > :26:49.the deal to build the latest platoon of royal navy frigates with Swedish

:26:50. > :26:52.steel. I hope they will come to Aberavon and explain the

:26:53. > :26:55.breathtaking contrast between their words and their deeds. The people of

:26:56. > :27:01.my constituency deserve an explanation. Madam Speaker, I am

:27:02. > :27:05.certain that the British Steel industry has a promising future, if

:27:06. > :27:08.given the right support by government. The men and women of

:27:09. > :27:14.Port Talbot work to make the finest steal money can buy and they are

:27:15. > :27:18.breaking all production efficiency records, yet the industry requires a

:27:19. > :27:23.long-term strategy based on a comprehensive approach to skills,

:27:24. > :27:27.investment, regulation, industry and industrial input. This is why I'm

:27:28. > :27:33.proud to be chairing an all-party group on steel that will reap

:27:34. > :27:38.produce a report, steel 2020, on form relating a long-term industrial

:27:39. > :27:42.strategy of British and Welsh steel. But our strategy for the future of

:27:43. > :27:47.the Welsh economy must not be limited to steal. We need a new

:27:48. > :27:51.Industrial Revolution, grounded in the new economy of renewable and

:27:52. > :27:54.collective technology. A fourth Industrial Revolution like the one

:27:55. > :28:00.spoken of the World Economic Forum 's meeting recently in Davos. I see

:28:01. > :28:05.Wales at the forefront of this revolution. The Swansea Bay tidal

:28:06. > :28:10.lagoon could transform the energy industry yet frustratingly its

:28:11. > :28:12.future is under threat due to the government 's perpetual

:28:13. > :28:18.flip-flopping. A positive decision on the lagoon would not only put a

:28:19. > :28:22.much-needed tick in the government 's diminishing green credentials, it

:28:23. > :28:26.would also boost the local economy. And by committing to sourcing as

:28:27. > :28:31.much deal as possible from the UK it would significantly help the UK's

:28:32. > :28:33.steel industry. This project needs and deserves rapid advance. The

:28:34. > :28:39.government needs to get off the fence, and fast. Madam Speaker, the

:28:40. > :28:44.government's short-sightedness also undermines other forms of renewable

:28:45. > :28:48.energy such as wind and solar energy. Burgeoning industries in my

:28:49. > :28:54.constituency with hundreds of jobs at stake but under threat because of

:28:55. > :28:58.the government 's move to cut stabilising mechanisms such as the

:28:59. > :29:03.feed in tariff. The government has been on a policy dissent from Hug a

:29:04. > :29:09.husky to come in the words of the Prime Minister, let's cut the green

:29:10. > :29:12.rubbish. I will give way. I thank the honourable member. If I can

:29:13. > :29:18.touch on the hypocrisy I seeing what he's saying in the contradiction

:29:19. > :29:21.between supporting steel and salsa, using so much with reactors of

:29:22. > :29:31.electricity and the price but on that electricity for the renewable.

:29:32. > :29:35.I thank the honourable gentleman for his intervention. As we have

:29:36. > :29:39.discussed, it is clear that energy intensive industries need support

:29:40. > :29:44.from government. That was recognised by the Chancellor in 2011. The

:29:45. > :29:48.support that has come finally is very welcome. The big question for

:29:49. > :29:53.me is how it can possibly have taken five years to make that happen, to

:29:54. > :29:56.get the state aid clearance that was required from the European Union.

:29:57. > :30:01.Fundamentally the strategy for energy has to be around spreading

:30:02. > :30:04.the burden of the cost, more effectively so that our energy

:30:05. > :30:09.intensive industries are not being hanged out to dry by an energy

:30:10. > :30:15.policy that is simply not making sense. It is also about making a

:30:16. > :30:19.firm commitment so that those investing have a sense of the

:30:20. > :30:23.stability and sustainability of the market going forward. At the moment

:30:24. > :30:29.we don't have any of those things in place and that is why we are in the

:30:30. > :30:32.mess that we are. I will give way. I'm grateful to my honourable

:30:33. > :30:37.friend. He's making an important point about stability. Does he agree

:30:38. > :30:43.with me that the real problem in areas like solar and anaerobic

:30:44. > :30:48.digester which had a reception in the House earlier this week is the

:30:49. > :30:53.instability of the legislative and regulatory framework which is a

:30:54. > :30:58.deterrent to long-term investment and is costing a lot of jobs in

:30:59. > :31:02.communities right across Wales? I thank my honourable friend for his

:31:03. > :31:06.intervention. I agree absolutely. I think the select committee on energy

:31:07. > :31:11.and climate change has just produced a compelling report which

:31:12. > :31:14.demonstrates clearly that we are losing investment, losing jobs,

:31:15. > :31:21.precisely because of the mixed messages and signals that this

:31:22. > :31:26.government is sending to investors. Business Apple a vacuum, it needs

:31:27. > :31:30.stability. It needs to know whether it's investments, whether they will

:31:31. > :31:32.be a return on in the future and at the present they see no evidence of

:31:33. > :31:40.that in the UK. Wales and Southwest Wales can also

:31:41. > :31:47.be at the forefront of an internet revolution, Swansea has based its

:31:48. > :31:52.city Deal proposal on the concept of an internet coast to drive the

:31:53. > :31:59.digital health and economic exploration and all eyes are now on

:32:00. > :32:06.the Chancellor -- acceleration. He must give his backing to this

:32:07. > :32:10.exciting vision, the Swans university campus, based in my

:32:11. > :32:17.constituency, as a role to play in the development of the internet

:32:18. > :32:26.coast and I looked my friend for of that fact. This is one of the

:32:27. > :32:29.largest knowledge economy projects in Europe, producing cutting-edge

:32:30. > :32:35.research, focusing on science and innovation will stop whilst the

:32:36. > :32:38.internet coast is a plan for the future, it is a pity the same cannot

:32:39. > :32:42.be said of the government's downdraught Wales Bill. It does not

:32:43. > :32:47.provide anything like the lasting settlement it was intended to

:32:48. > :32:50.create. Instead it has thrown up more uncertainties around the

:32:51. > :32:55.legislative process and succeeds only in generating reams of

:32:56. > :32:57.constitutional red tape. Just this week, the Welsh affairs committee

:32:58. > :33:05.under the chairmanship of the Honourable member called on the

:33:06. > :33:10.proposed timetable for the bill so there is opportunity to reflect and

:33:11. > :33:13.that is the least that is needed. My concern is about ministerial consent

:33:14. > :33:16.and the risk that this process is seen as tantamount to an English

:33:17. > :33:22.veto but my more general concern is that this bill has been drafted

:33:23. > :33:25.isolated from the broader debate about the constitutional reform that

:33:26. > :33:29.our country desperately needs. The UK is more centralised than any

:33:30. > :33:33.other leading industrial economy, the Scottish referendum demonstrated

:33:34. > :33:38.that the constitutional foundations of the UK are cracking beneath our

:33:39. > :33:43.feet. The British people need and deserve better, the piecemeal make

:33:44. > :33:46.do and muddle through approach that is epitomised by this Wales Bill is

:33:47. > :33:51.simply not going to get the job done. We must have a constitutional

:33:52. > :33:57.convention that will formulate a bold, radical, rational root and

:33:58. > :34:02.branch reform of our Constitution. The convention would develop a

:34:03. > :34:05.written constitution, and elected Senate, a more proportional

:34:06. > :34:08.electoral system and a properly defined devolution of powers to the

:34:09. > :34:15.nations and regions of the United Kingdom. We have also seen the

:34:16. > :34:19.results of government by model, in Wales, with the trade union Bill,

:34:20. > :34:28.having taken a sledgehammer to crack a nut -- government by model. The

:34:29. > :34:35.government has realised the nut is not theirs to crack in the first

:34:36. > :34:39.place. It was the government that blinks first, the trade union Bill

:34:40. > :34:43.and the changes in voter registration, they are blatant and

:34:44. > :34:49.disgraceful attempts to turn the UK into a 1-party state. The thinly

:34:50. > :34:54.veiled agenda being to eradicate Parliamentary opposition altogether.

:34:55. > :35:02.Ladder made Putin would be proud of such fixing -- Vladimir Putin. Wales

:35:03. > :35:06.has lost around a quarter of our MPs, reducing Wales's voice in the

:35:07. > :35:10.House and marginalising the Welsh people. There is great potential in

:35:11. > :35:14.Wales but we will only realise this potential with bold leadership.

:35:15. > :35:17.There is vision and willingness in Cardiff Bay, but we find these

:35:18. > :35:22.qualities abysmally lacking on the benches opposite. As we go into

:35:23. > :35:28.elections in May we should remember that we have things to be proud of

:35:29. > :35:32.in Wales, a Labour government delivering for working people,

:35:33. > :35:36.creating 50,000 apprenticeships, getting 15,000 people back to work,

:35:37. > :35:40.ground-breaking legislation on violence against women, Labour

:35:41. > :35:43.government that has improved the cancer survival rate faster than

:35:44. > :35:48.anywhere in the UK and is training more nurses than ever before, and a

:35:49. > :36:01.Labour government that stood up to Westminster to protect farm workers

:36:02. > :36:05.wages. A Labour government, under Carwyn Jones, which has enabled the

:36:06. > :36:11.creation of 750 jobs at Aston Martin. Under Carwyn Jones Labour

:36:12. > :36:16.will make use of the Welsh government's new powers by cutting

:36:17. > :36:19.business rates for small businesses, supporting entrepreneurship, growth

:36:20. > :36:26.and jobs in Wales, that is the kind of leadership we need in Wales,

:36:27. > :36:29.creating jobs and opportunities. I thank you for giving way and for the

:36:30. > :36:36.wonderful speech. And for his important leadership in the debate,

:36:37. > :36:40.he has been critical in moving forward, would he also talk about

:36:41. > :36:44.the importance of clarification of what is going to happen with the

:36:45. > :36:48.franchising of rail in Wales and whether or not as suggested by the

:36:49. > :36:53.Department for Transport, no trains that start or ended in Wales would

:36:54. > :36:57.be franchised in Wales, we have got to know what is happening. Is this

:36:58. > :37:07.an important issue? I agree entirely. This comes back to one of

:37:08. > :37:11.the things I was talking about earlier, the need for a long-term

:37:12. > :37:18.industrial strategy, which connects supply with demand, and gives our

:37:19. > :37:21.steel producers some certainty so they know what infrastructure

:37:22. > :37:27.projects are coming down the track, and they can then configure their

:37:28. > :37:29.production processes to make sure they are making the right kind of

:37:30. > :37:34.steel at the right time, that is about a partnership between

:37:35. > :37:39.government and business, and without such partnerships industries such as

:37:40. > :37:43.the steel industry will continue to struggle. I hope that today we will

:37:44. > :37:48.hear more about the government's commitment to such a partnership.

:37:49. > :37:54.That is the kind of leadership we need in Wales. Creating jobs,

:37:55. > :37:57.opportunity, industry and enterprise, standing up for everyone

:37:58. > :38:01.in our nation, that is the kind of leadership we need, the kind of

:38:02. > :38:05.leadership we can be proud of. That is what it is vital that we see a

:38:06. > :38:12.Labour victory in Wales on May the 5th. Wales has the talent and

:38:13. > :38:14.creative ready to emanate our Celtic cousins, Scotland and Ireland, in

:38:15. > :38:22.gaining some recognition in the world. Our people achieve far beyond

:38:23. > :38:28.our size in rugby, football, athletics, and we can, with effort

:38:29. > :38:31.and fair chances, do the same politically, culturally and

:38:32. > :38:34.economically, I'm proud to be Welsh, British, European, and I'm certain

:38:35. > :38:41.we can make these advances because in all dimensions together we are

:38:42. > :38:47.stronger. The question is, that this house has considered, Welsh affairs?

:38:48. > :38:53.I hope that we can manage this debate without a formal time-limit.

:38:54. > :38:59.If everyone who has indicated that they would like to speak takes under

:39:00. > :39:03.ten minutes, that means around nine minutes, then everyone will have an

:39:04. > :39:16.equal chance to put their points. Davy Jones. Thank you. Can I wish

:39:17. > :39:18.you a belated happy St David's date. And can I congratulate the member on

:39:19. > :39:25.securing this debate which is an important debate, traditionally has

:39:26. > :39:32.always been held very close to St David's day itself and it reminds us

:39:33. > :39:37.and the entire House that even in an age of devolution many of the most

:39:38. > :39:44.important decisions that affect Wales are still taken in these

:39:45. > :39:50.Houses of Parliament. There have been busy times recently for the

:39:51. > :39:55.Wales Office and we recently had a very full debate on the draft Wales

:39:56. > :40:00.Bill and I don't propose to rehearse the remarks that I made them. Safe

:40:01. > :40:06.to say, I would like to say to the Minister, how pleased I am that he

:40:07. > :40:09.and his colleague have taken the opportunity of a pause in the

:40:10. > :40:16.process of developing what will be extremely important legislation. I

:40:17. > :40:20.think it was generally agreed by members and commentators outside

:40:21. > :40:26.this House that the draft bill was not ready and fit for purpose. I'm

:40:27. > :40:30.glad to see that he and his colleagues have given further

:40:31. > :40:34.consideration to this matter and I see that they aren't looking at the

:40:35. > :40:40.issue of the list reservations. -- they are. My concern is with the

:40:41. > :40:46.necessity test which I felt was rather sketchy and in defined. --

:40:47. > :40:54.ill-defined. I hope he can come back to this House with something which

:40:55. > :41:02.is fit for purpose. I wish to speak briefly about North Wales. That's

:41:03. > :41:08.the part of Wales I come from and that is the part of Wales I have

:41:09. > :41:13.lived all my life. Frequently, Welsh members do tend to think that North

:41:14. > :41:19.Wales is something of an afterthought, both here and in

:41:20. > :41:23.Cardiff Bay. That might possibly be in the case of the Welsh assembly

:41:24. > :41:28.government, that very few of its members actually come from North

:41:29. > :41:33.Wales and actually understand the peculiar circumstances that prevail

:41:34. > :41:41.in North Wales. I don't think it is fully understood by members of the

:41:42. > :41:45.Welsh government that North Wales or at least most of North Wales is very

:41:46. > :41:53.closely tied to the north-west of England. It is fair to say that

:41:54. > :41:58.North Wales is very much part of the North West economic region. That

:41:59. > :42:03.lack of understanding has emanated in certain problems for North Wales

:42:04. > :42:10.which I'm glad to say North Wales members of Parliament are now

:42:11. > :42:18.beginning to address with the formation of the new North Wales

:42:19. > :42:22.all-party group. North Wales needs to maintain its close links to the

:42:23. > :42:27.north-west of England, in fact, traditionally North Wales has always

:42:28. > :42:30.looked culturally and economically to the great cities of the

:42:31. > :42:36.north-west of England, Manchester and Liverpool. Devolution carries

:42:37. > :42:44.with it the danger that those historic and additional links can be

:42:45. > :42:47.loosened. It is very important now that government policy is firmly

:42:48. > :42:53.focused on developing the Northern powerhouse agenda, that North Wales

:42:54. > :43:00.should not be overlooked in that process. One of the aspects of the

:43:01. > :43:05.Northern powerhouse that North Wales needs to link into is the rail

:43:06. > :43:08.network. I was very glad when a few months ago the Chancellor announced

:43:09. > :43:16.that he was making the funds available for the upgrade of the

:43:17. > :43:19.Paulton curve which many members on both sides of the House had been

:43:20. > :43:27.pressing for for some time, but there is so much more that needs to

:43:28. > :43:30.be done. We North Wales MPs hear constantly of the wonderful upgrades

:43:31. > :43:36.in south Wales and electrification and we know that before long the

:43:37. > :43:38.great Western line will be upgraded to an electrified status or the way

:43:39. > :43:46.through to Swansea. I'm happy to give way. Thanks giving way. Does he

:43:47. > :43:49.share my concern that it would appear from announcements to the

:43:50. > :43:56.Department for Transport that the North Wales line to Manchester will

:43:57. > :44:00.be held by an English franchise and there won't be an opportunity for a

:44:01. > :44:05.Welsh franchise to hold that line because no franchise that starts or

:44:06. > :44:10.ends in England will be held in Wales? I have concerns about the

:44:11. > :44:14.franchise, but I'm bound to say, now that you have raised the subject, I

:44:15. > :44:21.think the citizens of North Wales would not express much satisfaction

:44:22. > :44:27.with the franchise which has been put forward. It's a poor service and

:44:28. > :44:32.it is actually quicker for me as a North Wales MP to travel to London

:44:33. > :44:37.by Virgin Trains that it is for me to travel to Cardiff. Issues of

:44:38. > :44:42.topography are partly responsible, of course. They don't explain the

:44:43. > :44:47.appallingly low standards of comfort that one experiences on a Riva and I

:44:48. > :44:51.would hope that all aspects of the franchise will be looked at, not

:44:52. > :44:58.least the adequacy of service that is provided at the moment. The North

:44:59. > :45:06.Wales coastal line needs to be upgraded. We must not miss out on

:45:07. > :45:13.the opportunity of tapping into the new service that will be provided as

:45:14. > :45:17.a consequence of the advent of HS2. It looks as though they will be a

:45:18. > :45:21.new hub at Crewe and it is essential for the travelling public of North

:45:22. > :45:29.Wales that proper services, electrified services, connect North

:45:30. > :45:33.Wales, from Holyhead to Crewe, and work, valuable work, has been done

:45:34. > :45:39.by the North Wales economic ambition board. This is a role which the new

:45:40. > :45:46.all-party group camp lay into, as well. Indeed it is hoped that

:45:47. > :45:52.shortly we will have a meeting where our friend from Stockton South, the

:45:53. > :45:56.Northern powerhouse Minister, will be attending, and I was pleased to

:45:57. > :46:02.see the Minister at a meeting organised by the ambition board in

:46:03. > :46:07.Wales a few months ago. It is essential that the government does

:46:08. > :46:10.not let its eye go off the ball in this regard, because electrification

:46:11. > :46:16.of the North Wales line is absolutely fundamental to the

:46:17. > :46:20.economy of North Wales and to its connectivity with the Northern

:46:21. > :46:26.powerhouse. Similarly, consideration should be given to the borderlands

:46:27. > :46:31.line which runs between Wrexham and Bristol, and it also connects the

:46:32. > :46:38.two Enterprises, at Wirral waters and Deeside. Electrification of that

:46:39. > :46:46.stretch of line between piston would be relatively inexpensive, but so

:46:47. > :46:49.highly desirable, and it would in fact put Deeside industrial estate

:46:50. > :46:55.within commuting distance of the centre of Liverpool, improving

:46:56. > :47:01.connectivity. I give way. Thank you for your kind words. The member

:47:02. > :47:07.knows that I share the agenda he is outlining, and it is the case that

:47:08. > :47:10.the Welsh government has invested ?43 million in the Wrexham Chester

:47:11. > :47:15.line which is very important and we need to do more. Would he join me in

:47:16. > :47:18.pressing the Welsh government and also the UK Government to put their

:47:19. > :47:26.money where their mouth is, because the Welsh government believes in the

:47:27. > :47:33.cross-border transport so much it is actually Jubilee line in the

:47:34. > :47:38.constituency in Chester rather than Wrexham, but we wanted to go right

:47:39. > :47:43.through to Wrexham. -- actually due the line.

:47:44. > :47:50.This is the burden of my speech. Because this part of North Wales is

:47:51. > :47:54.so dynamic and so important to the economy of Wales and to the country

:47:55. > :47:58.as a whole and because it straddles the border that was not in reality

:47:59. > :48:03.there until fairly recently we need to ensure that different policies on

:48:04. > :48:07.either side of the border have no unforeseen effects. So of course it

:48:08. > :48:10.is essential that both the Westminster government and the Welsh

:48:11. > :48:16.government should work extremely closely together in this regard.

:48:17. > :48:21.Before I sit down, Madam Deputy Speaker, being alert to your strict

:48:22. > :48:28.reserves to time, I would also mention the a 55 Coast Rd, the

:48:29. > :48:32.expressway which is really the most important route in the whole of

:48:33. > :48:40.North Wales, linking the areas around the border to Holyhead. The

:48:41. > :48:45.road is now quite old and in desperate need of upgrading. A few

:48:46. > :48:48.years ago, arrangements were made whereby borrowing powers were given

:48:49. > :48:55.to the Welsh government. In fact they were given the right to

:48:56. > :49:02.accessing the borrowing powers of the Welsh development agency to

:49:03. > :49:11.upgrade road infrastructure. That was stated specifically to be for

:49:12. > :49:15.the M4 and the A55. We know the Welsh government is taking steps to

:49:16. > :49:19.upgrade the M4 around the Newport area, again all well and good. The

:49:20. > :49:23.game from a North Wales point of view it is galling that they don't

:49:24. > :49:29.seem to be accessing those powers to upgrade the A55. One message I would

:49:30. > :49:37.ask him to give to his colleagues in the Welsh are simply government is

:49:38. > :49:42.to look at the letter a 55 -- the A55 and say that the road is as

:49:43. > :49:46.important to the people of the North as the M4 is the people of South

:49:47. > :49:51.Wales. There's a perception among the North Whaley is that we always

:49:52. > :49:55.get the short end the straw. -- among the people of North Wales. I

:49:56. > :50:00.very much up contributions will be made to this debate and they will

:50:01. > :50:08.understand that there is life north of Merthyr Tydfil, and that the

:50:09. > :50:11.people of North Wales need to have their own specific economic

:50:12. > :50:17.interests reflected and that means more economic activity and more

:50:18. > :50:25.integration with the economy. Wayne David. Thank you, Madam Deputy

:50:26. > :50:29.Speaker. I would like to briefly refer to three issues this

:50:30. > :50:33.afternoon. Firstly what has happened to the Aviva dropped Wales Bill,

:50:34. > :50:37.secondly the importance of the European Union to Wales and thirdly

:50:38. > :50:42.I would like to make reference to the need for a third runway at

:50:43. > :50:47.Heathrow Airport from a Welsh perspective. But I have to ask,

:50:48. > :50:53.where is the Secretary of State for Wales this afternoon? Surely this is

:50:54. > :50:57.an important debate, and his plays are really ought to have been in

:50:58. > :51:06.this chamber, listening to what members have to say, and responding

:51:07. > :51:10.to their remarks. It's not asking too much that the Secretary of State

:51:11. > :51:14.does show some courteous nurse and political common sense by coming

:51:15. > :51:18.here. I very much hope that he will learn the lesson from his

:51:19. > :51:22.embarrassment today and the under Secretary of State will clearly take

:51:23. > :51:29.that message back to him. Could I also say that I'm concerned about

:51:30. > :51:33.the fact that in Welch terms we have had a quite significant decision

:51:34. > :51:39.taken by the Secretary of State over the last week, and that is to

:51:40. > :51:45.withdraw the draft Wales Bill. I am concerned that there has been no

:51:46. > :51:51.statement to this house about it. No oral statement, not even a written

:51:52. > :51:56.statement, no communication at all with the House of Commons. We've

:51:57. > :52:03.learned about the decision taken by the Secretary of State from the

:52:04. > :52:05.press. And I think that is gross discourtesy and an undermining of a

:52:06. > :52:12.parliamentary system that we are all committed to. But that takes me to

:52:13. > :52:18.the main issue that I want to say a few words about to begin with. I ask

:52:19. > :52:21.this question of the house. What do the following individuals and

:52:22. > :52:27.organisations have in common? The Wales government centre, the leaders

:52:28. > :52:34.of three political parties in Wales, the learn and Society of Wales,

:52:35. > :52:41.supports think, Sir Emyr Jones Parry, the head of the Wales Office

:52:42. > :52:45.of the Law Society, the professor of governance and constitution and

:52:46. > :52:50.University College London, they all said that the draft Wales Bill was

:52:51. > :52:55.not fit for purpose. There was relative unanimity amongst those

:52:56. > :53:02.people in Wales who follow these issues very closely. The objective

:53:03. > :53:07.experts and academics, people at the sharp end of implementing

:53:08. > :53:13.legislation, this draft bill was not fit for purpose. I am sure the

:53:14. > :53:20.parliamentary undersecretary will say, yes, that is why we did it, we

:53:21. > :53:27.did listen. Would it not have been better if he had listened at the

:53:28. > :53:30.start? Because from the very beginning, when the draft bill was

:53:31. > :53:38.first published, there was concern expressed about it. I have a copy of

:53:39. > :53:45.the draft Bill, quite a heavy tome that it is, and the secretary of

:53:46. > :53:49.state said in the introduction, in the foreword to the bill, this draft

:53:50. > :53:54.Bill sets out in detail how the government plans to deliver the

:53:55. > :53:59.Saint Davids Day commitment to create a stronger, clearer, fed and

:54:00. > :54:06.evolution subtle and for Wales that will stand the test of time. How

:54:07. > :54:10.long did it stand for? Four months. Then he recognised what everyone

:54:11. > :54:17.else was saying that it was not fit for purpose and should go back to

:54:18. > :54:23.scratch and start all over again. I will give way. I've listened to the

:54:24. > :54:28.criticisms by the honourable gentleman, would he not agree that

:54:29. > :54:31.it is better to get the legislation right than come through with hasty

:54:32. > :54:37.legislation that does not stand the test of time, and did not read the

:54:38. > :54:40.recent airport by the Constitutional affairs committee which bemoaned the

:54:41. > :54:46.fact that the Tony Blair government of mine to 97 paste and to take

:54:47. > :54:53.through legislation which is now resulted in the West Lothian

:54:54. > :54:59.question not being addressed? I agree up to a point that

:55:00. > :55:04.prescription MX for better legislation but it would have been

:55:05. > :55:08.far better if there was recognition by view of the Wales Office that

:55:09. > :55:13.meaningful constitutional change can only be achieved in this country on

:55:14. > :55:23.the basis of political consensus. It can be achieved by a government, any

:55:24. > :55:26.government, trying to push through a piece of legislation that does not

:55:27. > :55:33.command broad support and is seen by some as partisan. That's one of the

:55:34. > :55:38.problems we had with this draft legislation, seen as partisan, not

:55:39. > :55:43.properly thought out, seen by many people as impractical and leading

:55:44. > :55:57.therefore to bad governance. I will give way. A fine example of

:55:58. > :56:04.inventing presidents to suit your case. The words inserted in the

:56:05. > :56:12.report were disputed because they are a quotation from a book

:56:13. > :56:18.published about this times, called Dragons Lead By Poodles. It started

:56:19. > :56:22.with a sentence, only the future is certain, the past is always

:56:23. > :56:31.changing! Which the committee has tried to do. And my honourable

:56:32. > :56:35.friend was the author of that book, too modest to say that although I

:56:36. > :56:38.think it is worth pointing out and there were indeed some things that

:56:39. > :56:42.the come and have disagreed with, yet many words of wisdom contained

:56:43. > :56:51.therein. The point I'm making is that those of us who believe in

:56:52. > :56:56.devolution recognise that there has to be a high degree of consensus and

:56:57. > :57:02.dialogue and debate amongst all politicians involved in the process

:57:03. > :57:04.here and in Cardiff Bay. I do hope that a cardinal lesson will be

:57:05. > :57:14.learned by the government, when they go back to scratch, that they will

:57:15. > :57:17.have to consult genuinely and openly, on a cross-party basis,

:57:18. > :57:22.think all our colleagues are prepared to make their contribution

:57:23. > :57:27.but also it's important that the government works with the Welsh

:57:28. > :57:32.assembly. I think it is very, very important that we have that dialogue

:57:33. > :57:37.in Cardiff Bay because, frankly, it is unthinkable that the Westminster

:57:38. > :57:40.government could decide on a package of devolution which is not

:57:41. > :57:45.acceptable to the body to which power is being devolved. And I think

:57:46. > :57:49.that if they proceeded with this draft bill we might be in that

:57:50. > :57:55.situation, ridiculous though it seems. So I say to the government,

:57:56. > :58:00.dialogue here and also dialogue with our colleagues and friends back in

:58:01. > :58:06.the Welsh assembly. The second point I would want to make is about the

:58:07. > :58:12.European Union. In my view, there is an overwhelmingly long case for the

:58:13. > :58:19.UK to remain a full member of the European Union. But for us in Wales

:58:20. > :58:25.that case is particularly strong. I say that because there can be no

:58:26. > :58:29.doubt whatsoever that the European Union is vital for jobs, for

:58:30. > :58:40.exports, and therefore, for prosperity in Wales. Last week, the

:58:41. > :58:47.Prime Minister visited the engine maintenance planned just outside my

:58:48. > :58:52.constituency. He made his case about why Britain should remain inside the

:58:53. > :58:57.European Union, Wyatt was beneficial to south Wales, why it was

:58:58. > :59:00.beneficial to General Electric. He had a strong case to put because

:59:01. > :59:04.General Electric is one of the most important employers for my

:59:05. > :59:16.constituency, many of the workers just travel down Nantgarw hill to

:59:17. > :59:19.work there and they recognise how important it is to have a good

:59:20. > :59:26.relationship with the European Union and have access to the market. There

:59:27. > :59:29.is no ideological axe to grind. It is simply empirically better that we

:59:30. > :59:35.recognise that the good of our economy we need to be firmly linked

:59:36. > :59:38.to our partners in the rest of Europe. It is as simple and

:59:39. > :59:44.straightforward as that. A bread and butter issue. I mentioned General

:59:45. > :59:50.Electric. Also on Monday night, I Matra presented tips from DS Smith

:59:51. > :00:01.recycling Limited. They are a British company with strong European

:00:02. > :00:04.precedents -- I met representatives. Expanding through the European

:00:05. > :00:06.Union, a major and important employer in my constituency of Kaya

:00:07. > :00:20.Philly. -- of Caerphilly. They just want to

:00:21. > :00:24.be a good employer and they recognise that it would be absolute

:00:25. > :00:28.lunacy for that company and the people it employs to extricate

:00:29. > :00:33.ourselves from the European Union. So the message that went out to the

:00:34. > :00:37.people they met on medieval ring is that in the interests of companies,

:00:38. > :00:42.jobs and prosperity, please make sure that a strong case is put from

:00:43. > :00:50.Britain to stay inside the European Union. And one of the things, I have

:00:51. > :00:52.mentioned two companies, they have innovated and well structured

:00:53. > :00:57.training programmes. And those training programmes are contributed

:00:58. > :01:04.to in large part by the European Union for their structural funds.

:01:05. > :01:11.Wales receives ?2.4 billion in the period to 2014-2020, from the

:01:12. > :01:15.European Union structural funds. Indeed Wales is a net beneficiary in

:01:16. > :01:22.terms of the money that comes to Wales as opposed to the money that

:01:23. > :01:29.leaves Wales. In fact, to the tune of ?838 million a year, Wales is a

:01:30. > :01:34.net beneficiary. So I say, there are strong practical reasons why the

:01:35. > :01:39.case should be put over the next few weeks for Britain, for Wales, to

:01:40. > :01:43.remain an integral part of the European Union. It makes sense for

:01:44. > :01:45.ordinary people, it makes sense for the prosperity of the country which

:01:46. > :01:55.we all are committed to. The final point, is again linked to

:01:56. > :02:00.the prosperity of Wales, and that is whether Heathrow should be expanded.

:02:01. > :02:05.To a third runway. As a Welsh MP, I believe that the strongest argument

:02:06. > :02:12.in favour of a third runway at Heathrow is a positive impact on the

:02:13. > :02:17.Welsh economy. Not just my view, the First Minister Wales Carwyn Jones

:02:18. > :02:23.put it very clearly when he said the other day that the Welsh government

:02:24. > :02:27.supports the expansion of Heathrow because it can provide the best

:02:28. > :02:35.possible support for investment and tourism and jobs in Wales. His

:02:36. > :02:42.comments are informed by hard facts and clear analysis. It has been

:02:43. > :02:53.estimated by 85% of the new manufacturing jobs which Heathrow

:02:54. > :02:56.would generate would be created outside London and 6000 of those

:02:57. > :03:00.manufacturing jobs would be in Wales, constituting a significant

:03:01. > :03:07.part of the 8000 Welsh jobs accompanying a total of ?6.2 billion

:03:08. > :03:14.of economic benefit. I think those facts speak for themselves. It is

:03:15. > :03:19.absolutely essential in my view, when the government stops

:03:20. > :03:22.shilly-shallying, and gives the go-ahead for this expansion of

:03:23. > :03:27.Heathrow, it makes sense for the country as a whole and for Wales in

:03:28. > :03:33.particular. But much depends on access to Heathrow and whether it

:03:34. > :03:40.will bring the best possible benefits to Wales and that is why it

:03:41. > :03:49.is essential that the expansion of Heathrow goes along with the

:03:50. > :03:52.electrified line between Paddington and Wales and other weather

:03:53. > :03:59.consultation has begun on this issue. -- and I'm aware. If we are

:04:00. > :04:05.going to have a third runway at Heathrow, wouldn't it make sense for

:04:06. > :04:12.the Welsh government to get on with the relief roads so they can get on

:04:13. > :04:16.with the airport? I'm in favour of this, but I recognise there is

:04:17. > :04:24.simply a decision which is up to the government in Cardiff and much

:04:25. > :04:27.depends on what happens in London with the financial facilities which

:04:28. > :04:37.are made or not made available to the worst government. That is

:04:38. > :04:42.important. As far as the Heathrow expansion is concerned it is vital a

:04:43. > :04:48.strong message goes out, it and the consultation with Network Rail is

:04:49. > :04:52.beginning, in fact. The governments in Cardiff and also here are in

:04:53. > :04:56.favour of that and I would like to see a strong comment from the

:04:57. > :05:00.undersecretary of state when he replies to this debate that they

:05:01. > :05:05.will be strong representation made by this government to Network Rail

:05:06. > :05:09.to make sure that we get this spur as part of our longer term project,

:05:10. > :05:16.we would hope, for the ex-pension of Heathrow Airport. -- expansion. I

:05:17. > :05:20.will conclude my remarks by saying these are three important issues. We

:05:21. > :05:25.want a coherent draft Wales Bill presented, and I would hope we can

:05:26. > :05:29.have this formulated on a basis of consensus, and I would hope that in

:05:30. > :05:34.the next few months we will see many members in this chamber to argue the

:05:35. > :05:40.case for Britain's continued membership of the EU, especially the

:05:41. > :05:46.importance to Wales, and I also hope that we can unite in support of an

:05:47. > :05:52.expanded Heathrow Airport, that would be of tremendous benefit to

:05:53. > :05:56.the Welsh economy. My experiment of having a voluntary time limit has

:05:57. > :06:02.not worked. We will therefore have a formal time limit of nine minutes.

:06:03. > :06:12.This is for backbench speeches. Mr Glyn Davies. Thank you very much.

:06:13. > :06:17.You just got the nine minutes bar in before I rose to speak which is

:06:18. > :06:22.probably a good thing! The debate is very close to my heart and I have

:06:23. > :06:27.always thought we should have a debate in this chamber as near as

:06:28. > :06:34.possible to the 1st of March and in my mind I wish think of this as

:06:35. > :06:41.being the sent David's day debate. -- St David. It leads me to take a

:06:42. > :06:52.non-adversarial approach to our discussions. I opened the debate

:06:53. > :06:55.last year. In preparation I remember looking back to see who had

:06:56. > :07:00.previously debated and I was hoping that my favourite British politician

:07:01. > :07:06.of all time David Lloyd George had been opening the debate. He rightly

:07:07. > :07:15.stands outside the door here, but he hadn't. He was a remarkable

:07:16. > :07:22.politician, a left-wing radical, Welsh speaker for North Wales. He

:07:23. > :07:26.effectively lead the Conservative Party for six years in this place,

:07:27. > :07:31.you have got to be a Welshman to pull off a trick like that. But he

:07:32. > :07:37.did it. It was actually his daughter, Megan Lloyd George, who

:07:38. > :07:45.opened the first St David's day debate in 1944 stop it does not have

:07:46. > :07:49.a long history. I read her speech, much of it was based on a couple of

:07:50. > :07:59.issues, one was the diet situation of the farming industry, the daring

:08:00. > :08:02.industry -- the dire situation of the farming industry, the dairy

:08:03. > :08:06.industry in particular. Not much has changed in that regard. Welsh dairy

:08:07. > :08:13.farming is in serious dire straits at present and I think mid Wales

:08:14. > :08:20.continues very much to be ignored. I will give way. Is it not the case

:08:21. > :08:26.that there was a short period of time when mid Wales was given some

:08:27. > :08:35.support when the rural Wales group was doing a great job for the

:08:36. > :08:37.locality? I thank the member for giving me the opportunity for

:08:38. > :08:42.self-congratulation, but I best not take it. I don't think. There was

:08:43. > :08:47.one comment from Megan Lloyd George's speech which I did enjoy

:08:48. > :08:58.and you might enjoy this, as well, she said that no in -- Englishman

:08:59. > :09:02.can understand the Welsh, and however much they might try and

:09:03. > :09:05.however sympathetic they might feel, they can't get inside the skin and

:09:06. > :09:13.bones of a Welshman. Unless they are born again. That probably explains

:09:14. > :09:18.quite a lot. I'm very supportive of St David's day being a national

:09:19. > :09:22.holiday. I support the efforts of the private members bill by the

:09:23. > :09:27.member for candid note who is taking this through the House at the

:09:28. > :09:30.moment. We should try to devolve this issue to the National Assembly

:09:31. > :09:34.for Wales so they can take the decision, and I'm very much in

:09:35. > :09:40.agreement with that. Can I finish one point Britain when I was a

:09:41. > :09:47.National Assembly member myself, I actually declared the 1st of March

:09:48. > :09:54.to be a bank holiday in my office and the staff were told they did not

:09:55. > :10:01.have to come in. I will give way. I'm very grateful. I'm glad of his

:10:02. > :10:05.support for that idea, would he support members on this side of the

:10:06. > :10:09.House would it comes to the Wales Bill if we put an amendment down for

:10:10. > :10:15.public holidays to be removed as the list of conditions to remain here? I

:10:16. > :10:19.don't think the member would expect me to go further than to say that

:10:20. > :10:27.that might be an idea which could well be supported and will be looked

:10:28. > :10:30.at. St David himself was a great Welshman, pure in thought and deed,

:10:31. > :10:37.a condition which every good Welshman aspires to. He performed

:10:38. > :10:42.awe-inspiring miracles, people refer to the most famous of which, to rise

:10:43. > :10:48.up the ground of which she was standing, in order he might be seen.

:10:49. > :10:53.-- he was. The First Minister of Wales made this point in a speech

:10:54. > :10:59.which I heard. The part of that I find most interesting was the

:11:00. > :11:02.reflection on it made by the late Professor John Davies, another great

:11:03. > :11:06.Welshman, he said he could not conceive of a miracle more

:11:07. > :11:12.superfluous than the creation of a new health. That is true, but it was

:11:13. > :11:20.still a very good trick to pull off. -- a new hell. I want to make

:11:21. > :11:26.comments in three areas which I feel should be made as often as possible

:11:27. > :11:29.in this place. Comments on culture and sport and the transfer of power

:11:30. > :11:35.which is taking place through the Wales Bill and to some extent

:11:36. > :11:49.through the constituencies boundary review. Wales is a great nation of

:11:50. > :11:55.culture, it is part of the... What is especially special is the Welsh

:11:56. > :11:58.language, it makes Wales different, but everyone can speak the Welsh

:11:59. > :12:02.language, but it makes Wales different, very different from any

:12:03. > :12:07.other part of Britain and you can go to certain places and here

:12:08. > :12:16.indigenous language of Welsh being spoken on the Street and that is

:12:17. > :12:22.especially for is the -- and that is very special. A key part of this is

:12:23. > :12:25.the Welsh language channel, and every year we seem to find it hard

:12:26. > :12:31.to maintain the support for that channel to continue, and I just hope

:12:32. > :12:44.that everybody on all parties in this place will acknowledge the

:12:45. > :12:52.importance of that channel. I want to say something briefly about

:12:53. > :12:57.sport, maybe not the obvious things. We have a magnificent captain in Sam

:12:58. > :13:01.Warburton of the rugby team, not just for the quality of his play,

:13:02. > :13:08.but you type of man he is. I will never forget, but I look back, he

:13:09. > :13:14.was so unjustly sent off in the semifinal of the Rugby World Cup, he

:13:15. > :13:18.looked at the referee, nodded his head and he walked off with no

:13:19. > :13:25.disagreement whatsoever. He accepted a very unfair decision, and he went

:13:26. > :13:30.off, that requires a level of self-control I find amazing, and

:13:31. > :13:34.that makes him a magnificent man. I must make reference to the Welsh

:13:35. > :13:40.football team who are in France for European Championship and wished

:13:41. > :13:46.them well. I would like to mention a couple of sportsmen, John Charles.

:13:47. > :13:51.I'm of an age, it was the best footballer that Britain has ever

:13:52. > :13:56.produced. -- he was. He does not come to people's mind, but he was an

:13:57. > :14:01.amazing player. He could leap like a salmon, and he had a certain

:14:02. > :14:08.quality, a bit like St David, you could rise himself, -- he could rise

:14:09. > :14:14.himself, he was appreciated across the world. Amazingly he had the same

:14:15. > :14:21.concept of fairness. He was never sent. Never cautioned in the whole

:14:22. > :14:24.of his career. How you can be at his standard, one of the best in the

:14:25. > :14:29.world, to never be cautioned and never do anything, like have an

:14:30. > :14:36.argument with anybody, that is amazing. And I want to mention Barry

:14:37. > :14:41.Williams. I played rugby in the Midlands and the North of England

:14:42. > :14:52.and eventually came back to Wales. We had one team. In terms of the

:14:53. > :14:57.team, the first-team, there were maybe ten teams of youngsters buying

:14:58. > :15:02.every week, under eights, under tens, and Barry Williams organises

:15:03. > :15:09.that. That is the kind of individual who is making a massive contribution

:15:10. > :15:14.to Welsh sport and in deed to the spirit of encouraging young people

:15:15. > :15:18.to be part of society. I think of that rugby club, not the greatest in

:15:19. > :15:22.the world, although when I played there I thought it was, but we have

:15:23. > :15:28.a man there who is an example, right across Wales to everyone, and

:15:29. > :15:33.finally I want to say, a few things about the Wales Bill. We have not

:15:34. > :15:38.seen it yet, and I'm disappointed there is a pause, I'm one of the

:15:39. > :15:42.few, but I knowledge there has to be a pause because of the amount of

:15:43. > :15:46.days in getting to where we are, but I would like to have seen it as a

:15:47. > :15:53.subject for debate during the National Assembly election. I think

:15:54. > :15:55.it would have been a real issue of contention and elections often

:15:56. > :15:59.finish being a debate about all sorts of things very much unrelated

:16:00. > :16:08.to what the election should be about, but that would be an issue,

:16:09. > :16:12.for the Welsh assembly, to debate the future of Wales, I think it

:16:13. > :16:17.would have been very appropriate. I do think from what I have seen so

:16:18. > :16:22.far, it would please me, clearly the draft Bill was not receiving the

:16:23. > :16:25.level of support that would unable to go forward, and we do still have

:16:26. > :16:30.the reserve powers model, it seems as if the powers that might be

:16:31. > :16:36.reserved will be greatly reduced and we should be welcoming that. There

:16:37. > :16:42.are other parts of the bill which also important. The inclusion of

:16:43. > :16:46.income tax responsibilities for the Welsh government, that is crucial,

:16:47. > :16:48.that will give us financial responsibility as well as the

:16:49. > :16:55.spending responsibility, that will enable Welsh government to grow up.

:16:56. > :17:02.There are a whole lot of other issues in their, a general agreement

:17:03. > :17:08.across all parties to come in the end, hopefully have a change and a

:17:09. > :17:13.new bill that members from all parties will be able to support. And

:17:14. > :17:24.that will deliver that stable, long-term devolution settlement that

:17:25. > :17:29.we would all like to see. Thank you. Thank you for calling me in this

:17:30. > :17:35.debate and it is a great pleasure to follow the honourable member for

:17:36. > :17:42.mod, Rick. And well done to the member for Aberavon who secured this

:17:43. > :17:47.valuable time in the chamber to talk all things Welsh and he talked quite

:17:48. > :17:52.rightly about the crisis in the steel industry at the moment and the

:17:53. > :17:58.issues he raised also have a huge impact on the steelworks in my

:17:59. > :18:03.constituency and I wholeheartedly support his points. We were on a

:18:04. > :18:10.lobby together with other honourable members this morning and off to see

:18:11. > :18:14.the Business Minister to keep saying those very things and I very much

:18:15. > :18:27.support his action and called for more help to protect the industry.

:18:28. > :18:30.We must never forget those workers in light of the job loss

:18:31. > :18:35.announcements. We are feeling the effects of those job losses as well.

:18:36. > :18:42.We went into this in some depth in the debate on Monday. I know the

:18:43. > :18:46.secretary of state and the Minister are extremely mindful of the issues

:18:47. > :18:49.but on behalf of the steelworkers I represent, I asked the Welsh office

:18:50. > :18:57.ministers to keep speaking up on behalf of the industry. I shan't

:18:58. > :19:08.repeat those five points, but please be mindful of them. I am also aware

:19:09. > :19:16.that in steel, it is a mixed picture from and positive news that want

:19:17. > :19:19.steelworks, who produced some of the best quality transformer steel in

:19:20. > :19:25.the world, they delivered a fit in the third quarter last year. Liberty

:19:26. > :19:32.steel, which the member for Newport West mentioned, they have restarted

:19:33. > :19:37.production at their steelworks and hope to increase production in the

:19:38. > :19:46.months and years to come. There are many members who want to get on so,

:19:47. > :19:53.given I have this opportunity, I wanted to bang on about the Severn

:19:54. > :19:57.Bridge tolls! I make no apology for banging on about them again. It is

:19:58. > :20:02.by no means a new issue to the house but, after many years of debate and

:20:03. > :20:08.questions and meetings, it is coming to a head. The bridges will soon

:20:09. > :20:13.come back into public ownership and we are in that crucial period where

:20:14. > :20:17.discussions are taking place about the level of tolling and we must not

:20:18. > :20:22.miss the opportunity to reduce them. It is one of the most frequently

:20:23. > :20:27.raised issues alongside the overcrowding on the commuter

:20:28. > :20:32.services to Bristol and beyond. Some 12,500 people travel from Newport

:20:33. > :20:37.and Monmouthshire to England every day and there is a complete

:20:38. > :20:42.transport trap. They either take the expensive, overcrowded train if they

:20:43. > :20:49.can get on it or pay the hour will -- eye watering tolls on the bridge.

:20:50. > :20:53.If the Minister could grant my St David's Day debate wish, and I

:20:54. > :20:58.suspect the wish of many of my constituents who are commuters or

:20:59. > :21:02.run local businesses, it would be to commit to lobby the Department for

:21:03. > :21:06.Transport to slash those tolls and get to a near maintenance levels

:21:07. > :21:11.when the bridges are publicly owned. The tolls have a huge impact on

:21:12. > :21:14.commuters and access to jobs for many of my constituents when you

:21:15. > :21:19.factor in that people have to pay them, they can't afford to take the

:21:20. > :21:24.jobs that are on offer in Bristol and the surrounding area. There is a

:21:25. > :21:30.huge local impact on business, not just the hauliers, but other

:21:31. > :21:35.businesses across South Wales who absorb the cost off the bottom line

:21:36. > :21:42.or, in some cases, have to relocate to England. The honourable member

:21:43. > :21:45.for Monmouth discovered in his role recently as chair of the Welsh

:21:46. > :21:51.affairs elect committee, that the debts were due to be paid back on

:21:52. > :21:56.the bridges as early as autumn 2017 because of tax changes and increased

:21:57. > :22:01.traffic volume. In a recent question I got the answer back to, I was told

:22:02. > :22:06.the concession was meant to end in 2018 so it is important we know the

:22:07. > :22:11.answers to the following questions. Will the debts be cleared by 2017?

:22:12. > :22:19.Is his understanding that there has been an increased revenue coming in

:22:20. > :22:24.for the congestion air -- concessionaire? Why will the

:22:25. > :22:31.concession therefore not end in the 17? If we do go to 2018, what are

:22:32. > :22:34.they recouping in the meantime? And what discussions are going on about

:22:35. > :22:42.the date the concession ends and what level of tolling will we have

:22:43. > :22:46.in the future? Finally, we know that VAT will have to come off the bridge

:22:47. > :23:01.tolls when they revert to public ownership thanks to kindly EU rules!

:23:02. > :23:05.It is important that the government recognises that would have happened

:23:06. > :23:10.anyway, it is not the great gift, they would have had to take that

:23:11. > :23:14.money anyway. Some clarity over the money recouped from the bridges, the

:23:15. > :23:21.current debt, the money the government is getting from VAT. And

:23:22. > :23:27.please include honourable members with constituency interest in your

:23:28. > :23:32.discussions. I appreciate the Minister will not have all of the

:23:33. > :23:35.answers today but would he at least commit to getting the transport

:23:36. > :23:39.minister to answer those questions and would he be able to broker a

:23:40. > :23:41.meeting between me and other honourable members in the Department

:23:42. > :23:46.for Transport so we can find out what is happening? Finally, can I

:23:47. > :23:52.just say, the member for Aberavon talked about bold leadership in the

:23:53. > :23:57.Welsh government and its partnerships and achievements were

:23:58. > :24:01.part of the theme in his debate. In Newport there is a real optimism

:24:02. > :24:07.around the Friars walk development which opened thanks to Mike

:24:08. > :24:13.honourable friend. And all credit is June to the brave political

:24:14. > :24:17.leadership of Bob bright in Newport council who drove this through at a

:24:18. > :24:21.time when hardly anybody else in the country was building this type of

:24:22. > :24:27.project. It is not the answer to every problem in Newport but we have

:24:28. > :24:34.seen over 120,000 new people coming through our city centre in November

:24:35. > :24:38.and along with the decision to relocate with the University of

:24:39. > :24:41.South Wales in the city centre and other developments and partnerships

:24:42. > :24:46.with the Welsh government are bringing a real optimism to the

:24:47. > :24:51.city. I want to finish by saying that we need the government to play

:24:52. > :24:55.its part, to save, protect and build our manufacturing industries because

:24:56. > :24:59.the government also has a role to play in making that city thrive and

:25:00. > :25:10.grow and protecting our steel industry is one way to do that. It

:25:11. > :25:15.is a pleasure, and in the interests of St David's Day, firstly huge

:25:16. > :25:18.congratulations to the honourable member for securing this important

:25:19. > :25:23.debate and thank you to my honourable friend for building some

:25:24. > :25:28.consensus just before my speech. In the spirit of consensus I would like

:25:29. > :25:31.to add my lobby to the honourable member for Newport East on the

:25:32. > :25:36.Severn Bridge tolls, an important cross-party issue that we all

:25:37. > :25:42.campaign on strongly. I would certainly like to come to that

:25:43. > :25:46.meeting. I want to touch on a couple of things and I'm mindful of the

:25:47. > :25:50.time limit but it would be the miss of meat for the member of Cardiff

:25:51. > :26:00.North not to start on the Cardiff City deal -- as the member for

:26:01. > :26:05.Cardiff North. I think it is an important time for Cardiff, a very

:26:06. > :26:10.exciting time to be involved in what I see as the engine room of the

:26:11. > :26:15.Welsh economy, Cardiff and the city region. This deal really does bring

:26:16. > :26:21.a lot of investment and scope and vision together, or could bring it

:26:22. > :26:25.together if it is successful, and the next couple of weeks will be

:26:26. > :26:31.incredibly important for the Welsh capital. A couple of please from

:26:32. > :26:35.this chamber about involvement from the private sector and I would

:26:36. > :26:41.implore the Minister and anything he can do. In the spirit of consensus

:26:42. > :26:45.and in the frame of the city deal, what a welcome and trillionth

:26:46. > :26:55.announcement the Aston Martin and announcements was. -- brilliant. It

:26:56. > :26:59.has a championing from the UK Government and the Welsh government,

:27:00. > :27:05.and a partnership which can show that we can secure a lot more

:27:06. > :27:14.investment. We are all tempted to take complete credit for anything

:27:15. > :27:19.that is positive in Wales but I think that if we approach these

:27:20. > :27:28.issues, and there are more companies in South Wales and I hope North

:27:29. > :27:33.Wales, so working together, and the electrification is a key one. If it

:27:34. > :27:39.goes to Cardiff and goes on to Swansea, it has that opportunity of

:27:40. > :27:43.tying into the South Wales Metro. I want to work with the Welsh

:27:44. > :27:48.government and Network Rail on getting into the right control

:27:49. > :27:52.period, and the work of the South Wales valleys. And whether it is

:27:53. > :27:58.heavy or light line, I want to do what I can and I want that spirit of

:27:59. > :28:02.consensus to really get into the city deal and hopefully the Metro

:28:03. > :28:07.will be at the centre of that. I realise it will be difficult and we

:28:08. > :28:13.might not agree on everything in the run-up to the assembly election but

:28:14. > :28:17.I look forward to working with the counsellor in the North who has 16

:28:18. > :28:21.years of experience on the council and I am sure can help deliver that

:28:22. > :28:31.Metro. The second thing in terms of the city deal is that great Welsh

:28:32. > :28:37.company IQE. You find their conduct is in most electronic devices. Their

:28:38. > :28:40.relationship with Cardiff University and the catapult the Chancellor came

:28:41. > :28:45.to Cardiff to launch is bringing high end, brilliant manufacturing to

:28:46. > :28:56.Wales, the exact kind of industry we need to attract together. Building

:28:57. > :28:59.on IQE and Cardiff University, which, without venturing too much

:29:00. > :29:05.into the European debate, really does hit far above its weight and

:29:06. > :29:08.tied into that funding and the critical mass we get in the single

:29:09. > :29:13.market intervals of research and development which I support

:29:14. > :29:17.wholeheartedly. Metro, electric occasion, IQE and working with the

:29:18. > :29:23.private and third sectors will deliver a Cardiff City deal that

:29:24. > :29:27.will rejuvenate the south of Wales and the valleys are very important

:29:28. > :29:31.in that deal. It might start with Cardiff but it is incredibly

:29:32. > :29:35.important to that critical population of about 1.5 million

:29:36. > :29:38.people. While I say that Cardiff is the engine room of the Welsh

:29:39. > :29:44.economy, it is that transformation that we need for South Wales. I

:29:45. > :29:48.thank him for giving way, he alluded to the importance of the EU for

:29:49. > :29:52.Cardiff University and research funding, he will be aware that the

:29:53. > :29:56.leader of the Conservative Party in the assembly will be voting for

:29:57. > :30:02.Brexit so what impact does he think that will have on the conservative

:30:03. > :30:06.and fester when it comes to higher education policy? You are trying to

:30:07. > :30:14.ruin the consensus in my own party as well this debate! But while I

:30:15. > :30:19.disagree with a good friend and colleague, we will work these things

:30:20. > :30:26.out when he is First Minister so I wouldn't worry about it! Moving on

:30:27. > :30:30.very quickly to more of the redevelopment and challenges, slight

:30:31. > :30:35.challenges that I see for the South Wales and Cardiff economy, I know

:30:36. > :30:41.the honourable number for Caerphilly is not in his place but I am sure he

:30:42. > :30:47.will read Hansard later, and the barefaced cheek about the M4 relief

:30:48. > :30:52.road, saying they are waiting for some sort of financial package is

:30:53. > :30:55.unbelievable. That borrowing power has been available to the Welsh

:30:56. > :31:01.government for some considerable time and they have done not much,

:31:02. > :31:06.not much in terms of progressing that forward. And a clear

:31:07. > :31:10.commitment... Would he accept that they may not have done much in South

:31:11. > :31:15.Wales but they have done nothing at all in North Wales? I wholeheartedly

:31:16. > :31:21.accept that and I feel for the 855 as much as I do for the M4. In terms

:31:22. > :31:29.of the M4 relief road it really is key for the ill bring to Heathrow

:31:30. > :31:34.and the spur on Network Rail. I was pleased to see my honourable friend

:31:35. > :31:38.on the European issue mentioning his clear commitment that in 12 months

:31:39. > :31:41.there will be eight state ready M4 relief road and I look forward to

:31:42. > :31:53.that coming to fruition. The eastern Bay Link Road, it is the

:31:54. > :31:58.absolute shame, a travesty, that the capital city for Wales has not had

:31:59. > :32:02.circular Road around it. The Eastern Bay Link Road, to any visitor, as

:32:03. > :32:07.you come out of the Bute town tunnels, and you national to stray

:32:08. > :32:12.-- disgrace, a road to nowhere, it needs finishing. I know phase one is

:32:13. > :32:17.on the cards now. It is ridiculous to do one phase of a circular Road,

:32:18. > :32:26.leaving a small section up to what would be an excellent gateway for

:32:27. > :32:31.the M4 relief road I touched on the -- I want to touch on the

:32:32. > :32:35.Commonwealth Games. We need to champion, as a nation. Cardiff is

:32:36. > :32:38.the -- at the core of it, but Cardiff has the opportunity to

:32:39. > :32:45.become a real national Commonwealth Games. When we look at what happened

:32:46. > :32:49.in Glasgow in Scotland, and the Olympics in London, the economic

:32:50. > :32:53.redevelopment that the Commonwealth Games prevent -- presents for Wales

:32:54. > :32:59.cannot be missed. I hope all parties in the assembly election will have

:33:00. > :33:04.in their manifesto commitment to the Commonwealth Games, because I know

:33:05. > :33:09.sports, civic societies and businesses are behind this bid. We

:33:10. > :33:12.need some political leadership from Cardiff Bay, and I hope it will be

:33:13. > :33:17.the only bid within the United Kingdom that we will have the full

:33:18. > :33:23.support from UK Government. On sporting success, I want come to an

:33:24. > :33:28.end by touching... I have asked for permission to mention one here. I am

:33:29. > :33:33.going to mention three heroes. Barry Williams. Many a Saturday morning,

:33:34. > :33:39.more than two decades ago, -- selling match against him, he is a

:33:40. > :33:43.true champion. We finally have something in common again. He is up

:33:44. > :33:51.for a vote in the election in terms of Derby are heroes, the pizza pie

:33:52. > :33:56.competition. Cardiff Welsh rugby club is the finest rugby club in

:33:57. > :34:03.Wales. A true champion, and I support his bid. Right want to

:34:04. > :34:09.mention to other people. That is Lewis Wilkins, who is a young

:34:10. > :34:20.chemist, a scientist from my constituency. He is supporting the

:34:21. > :34:23.bid in early research scientist. Great getting young people into

:34:24. > :34:31.science and research and development. If anyone wants to join

:34:32. > :34:40.me to see Lewis, a champion of science, a true advocate for

:34:41. > :34:45.Cardiff, University graduate. And second, Spelman. Beth's Sun

:34:46. > :34:52.tragically died of type one diabetes. It was undetected. He went

:34:53. > :35:02.to -- she went to present a petition on having a simple prick test as

:35:03. > :35:10.part of the investigation process to see if children are diabetic. She's

:35:11. > :35:14.incredibly brave, incredibly supportive and a great Cardiff

:35:15. > :35:19.family. They have turned the tragedy into a great campaign, and I think

:35:20. > :35:23.she is a true Welsh hero, and I am delighted she will be coming to

:35:24. > :35:36.number ten later this month to be dead tester -- to present another

:35:37. > :35:40.petition. I have hopefully captured the economic development and the

:35:41. > :35:45.potential in Cardiff and Wales. Should not put it down too much. We

:35:46. > :35:49.have absolutely great opportunities there, but on the back of that, a

:35:50. > :35:54.Commonwealth Games it will draw much of this readable and together, and I

:35:55. > :36:07.very much want to see that happening. I will sit down. It is a

:36:08. > :36:09.tad ungracious to complain for the Secretary of State for Wales without

:36:10. > :36:14.exposing sympathy for the dreadful week he's had. He had to withdraw

:36:15. > :36:20.his signature bill, but humiliation was heaped on humiliation on Tuesday

:36:21. > :36:25.where he lost a competition that he won last year, where he won first

:36:26. > :36:35.prize, and he is in extremely lowly position. It was by the Beard

:36:36. > :36:42.liberation front. There was one Welsh parliamentarian, and a beard

:36:43. > :36:46.of a different hue. One must understand that the minister wants

:36:47. > :36:52.to hide the pathetic start a beard that disfigures his features and not

:36:53. > :36:59.be seen in public today! We understand that. The main point I

:37:00. > :37:03.would like to make after expressing the sympathy with the Secretary of

:37:04. > :37:12.State is one of optimism again. And optimism for the Welsh nation. I

:37:13. > :37:22.recall, in 1957, the publication of a book which was the story about the

:37:23. > :37:26.future, suggesting that it was transported to 2033, and it was a

:37:27. > :37:32.dreadful Wales that he saw. It was a Wales that had changed its name to

:37:33. > :37:35.West England, and the language was dead, the Welsh personality had

:37:36. > :37:42.gone. But there was another depressing moment in 1962, when the

:37:43. > :37:49.genius Saunders Lewis made his speech where he foresaw a Wales with

:37:50. > :37:55.a language that would die out, and would not live beyond the 20th

:37:56. > :38:00.century. When you look at the Wales today, there are huge reasons for

:38:01. > :38:07.satisfaction and optimism. We had a lovely service this week where the

:38:08. > :38:10.of Wales -- the voices of Wales were at their beautiful best. The young

:38:11. > :38:13.children were representing, and the young children from the Welsh

:38:14. > :38:19.School, and the fact that we have succeeded in that dream where it was

:38:20. > :38:23.thought of throughout the 19th century where politicians came here

:38:24. > :38:29.in their droves, as Welsh patriots, and became seduced by this place.

:38:30. > :38:33.Wales was let down, generation after generation. We can rejoice that we

:38:34. > :38:38.have a parliament now, our own Parliament on the soil of our own

:38:39. > :38:45.country, speaking both the beautiful languages of Wales. I had the

:38:46. > :38:49.pleasure of talking to a delegation from the Icelandic parliament will

:38:50. > :38:53.stop we call ourselves the mother of polymers, and they call themselves

:38:54. > :39:00.the grandmother of Parliaments. They will be impressed. They will beat

:39:01. > :39:03.impressed by the grandchild of Parliament, a parliament that has

:39:04. > :39:10.started brilliantly and achieved much in spite of criticism from

:39:11. > :39:19.outside. We can all think of our pride in the Welsh nation. The man

:39:20. > :39:28.that ensured the Wales is right Welsh is heard wherever our children

:39:29. > :39:38.go, aspiration -- a courageous decision. That is when Roberts. He

:39:39. > :39:43.was a member of the God save the Bard. His subtlety was regarded as

:39:44. > :39:47.akin to a steam roller. That is unfair, but we must remember the

:39:48. > :39:52.vital of steam rollers in construction and constructive

:39:53. > :39:57.politics. I watched with admiration the way he took that policy on Welsh

:39:58. > :40:03.education and Welsh language education through a hostile party of

:40:04. > :40:09.his own. We do need technology that we do have a great debt. The issue I

:40:10. > :40:13.would like to raise is one from Aberavon, my honourable friend from

:40:14. > :40:19.there. It is about the future of energy in Wales. If we look at our

:40:20. > :40:27.potential, our North Sea oil, which is Scotland's great treasure, is the

:40:28. > :40:32.tide and hydroelectric power. We have allowed this immense source of

:40:33. > :40:37.energy to laid to waste untapped. There is an extraordinary dedication

:40:38. > :40:44.to Hinkley point, which I find inexplicable. It is entirely based

:40:45. > :40:48.on a stubborn view, which won't accept the truth and scientific

:40:49. > :41:00.reality. About except that Hinkley point is the final manifestation of

:41:01. > :41:08.a technical article blind alley. The one after is seven years late and 7

:41:09. > :41:14.billion euros over budget. The one in flannel bill has had a terrible

:41:15. > :41:23.technological problem. There is reacting Elliot -- reactive vessel

:41:24. > :41:28.which may not finish. If we look at tidal energy, the source of the

:41:29. > :41:36.energy is free. It is pretty each, and it is an immense sort of power.

:41:37. > :41:40.The energy at Hinckley Point is an imported fuel which is going to

:41:41. > :41:46.leave a legacy for all time. The source of the power on the tide is

:41:47. > :41:50.entirely predictable, unlike most other forms of renewable energy. You

:41:51. > :41:55.can predict excitement that exact the how the tide is going to come

:41:56. > :42:03.in, and you can make that energy entirely demand responsive by

:42:04. > :42:09.leaking whatever it is to electric storage schemes, to pump water to

:42:10. > :42:13.the heads of the valleys where electricity is not required and use

:42:14. > :42:19.the electricity when it is. It is a vital element in our electricity for

:42:20. > :42:24.many years. But it does seem to be now that we have had another year's

:42:25. > :42:31.delay at Hinckley Point that the government must come to its senses.

:42:32. > :42:36.They did an atrocious deal with the French to guarantee them a price for

:42:37. > :42:46.electricity that is twice the going rate, and is guaranteed for 35

:42:47. > :42:51.years. We cannot guarantee what the price of electricity will be for 35

:42:52. > :42:57.weeks. It is an extraordinary deal. All of the sensible money has

:42:58. > :43:04.retreated from Hinckley Point, that is gone, they have -- abandoned it.

:43:05. > :43:16.All that is less -- left is Chinese money, and they are investing at

:43:17. > :43:20.Bradwell and everywhere else in perpetuity. They are stealing our

:43:21. > :43:27.jobs by doing that and stealing our skills by that deal. The other

:43:28. > :43:32.element in this is EDF. EDF is virtually bankrupt. They have a debt

:43:33. > :43:40.of 37 billion euros. 37 billion euros! Their board has now

:43:41. > :43:46.cancelled, a further cancellation for another year. If we look at the

:43:47. > :43:50.evidence that the others which are going nowhere, we must understand

:43:51. > :43:57.that this investment is one of the worst investment decisions since the

:43:58. > :44:02.building of the pyramids, and object that something was bought at great

:44:03. > :44:07.cost where there is no practical value. It is becoming clear that

:44:08. > :44:13.there isn't establishment of the scientific community that have been

:44:14. > :44:16.locked in this stubborn view that we had to have Hinckley Point, now

:44:17. > :44:19.realising that we had by natural disaster on our hands, and that at

:44:20. > :44:26.some point they have to pull out. They need to invest the money in

:44:27. > :44:29.tidal power. What could be better? This great moving cliff of water

:44:30. > :44:37.that comes up and down the River seven, the second-highest tide the

:44:38. > :44:42.world. It is energy that is green, it is non-carbon, and that is

:44:43. > :44:51.predictable, and its duration is eternal. It has worked beautifully

:44:52. > :44:58.in Brittany. They build a barrage there, and it still has turbines in

:44:59. > :45:02.pristine condition, producing energy that is the cheapest in the world. I

:45:03. > :45:13.believe that is the way forward for Wales. It is a pleasure to follow

:45:14. > :45:17.the honourable member, and quite a surprise to hear a consensual speech

:45:18. > :45:23.from the honourable menu, -- member. I need to carry on and try not to be

:45:24. > :45:28.aggressive in the way I behave. Can I also think the member for Newport

:45:29. > :45:32.West about the -- for his comments about my predecessor. Those comments

:45:33. > :45:40.were appreciated by the whole house, and I know they will be appreciated

:45:41. > :45:49.by the constituents. His conclusion was significant. In addition to the

:45:50. > :45:54.Tom Ince about the A55, he was also the prime mover for the development

:45:55. > :45:57.of the A55 from Chester all the way to Holyhead. It is a remarkable

:45:58. > :46:01.think that he made the speech in 1970 and he did state that his

:46:02. > :46:07.ambition for his time as an MP was to ensure that the General Hospital

:46:08. > :46:13.was built in anger, and the road built from Chester to Holyhead. It

:46:14. > :46:18.is quite a position where both his promises in his maiden speech is was

:46:19. > :46:21.developed -- delivered. I do appreciate the comments. It is also

:46:22. > :46:25.important to state mentioned today that sometimes, you can speak into a

:46:26. > :46:29.debate like this and feel occasionally you can make a

:46:30. > :46:33.difference as a member of the select committee, because for the first

:46:34. > :46:37.time we heard about the Hampton curve, to ensure there is better

:46:38. > :46:42.connectivity between Wales and Liverpool, which is important for

:46:43. > :46:45.the economy in North Wales. I remember sitting in 2011 will be

:46:46. > :46:50.called for that investment, so it is good that the work that we do in

:46:51. > :46:52.select committees rivers -- results in changes.

:46:53. > :47:03.I want to paint and up the picture of the economic situation in Wales.

:47:04. > :47:09.I congratulate the member for securing this debate and concerns in

:47:10. > :47:14.religion to his constituency were highlighted, the situation facing

:47:15. > :47:18.the steel industry is a matter of grave concern. It is important to

:47:19. > :47:26.point out that this government should be proud of the fact that,

:47:27. > :47:31.since 2010, we have seen a significant improvement of the

:47:32. > :47:36.employment situation in Wales, a significant decrease in unemployment

:47:37. > :47:42.and we should be pleased about the way in which we are making strides.

:47:43. > :47:48.In the context of this debate, it is crucial to highlight that where we

:47:49. > :47:52.see the government in Westminster and Cardiff working together, we see

:47:53. > :47:56.better results. That willingness to work together is something that will

:47:57. > :48:02.often result in a better performance for the Welsh economy. I am in the

:48:03. > :48:06.staggering perdition of only really having had bad news for an economic

:48:07. > :48:11.perspective twice since being elected and one was the recent

:48:12. > :48:19.tragic fire in standard mode junction which saw 50 people use

:48:20. > :48:22.their positions. But in six years as an MP, that is one of the few

:48:23. > :48:34.examples I can remember of job losses. Unemployment has carved in

:48:35. > :48:39.Aberconwy since 2010 -- halved. We should acknowledge the successes we

:48:40. > :48:46.have had. Cooperation is what we are seeing from successive secretaries

:48:47. > :48:49.of State for Wales, working with the Welsh government, and I think the

:48:50. > :48:54.Secretary of State has made the right decision in pausing the

:48:55. > :48:57.situation in terms of the new Wales Bill at this point because it is

:48:58. > :49:00.unlikely we will have any willingness to agree on the way

:49:01. > :49:06.forward between now and the worst assembly elections. This is welcome,

:49:07. > :49:12.it is the mature thing to do, and the honourable member for Caerphilly

:49:13. > :49:16.should reflect on the fact that it is a brave politician who pauses to

:49:17. > :49:19.look at the evidence to come back with something better. What we want

:49:20. > :49:24.for Wales is a settlement that will be there for the long term. We are

:49:25. > :49:32.building on a devolution settlement which was not about Wales, it was

:49:33. > :49:36.all about the Labour Party. We are slowly trying to make it a more

:49:37. > :49:41.effective and constructive settlement and to take time to get

:49:42. > :49:47.the proper deal in place is necessary and correct. I also want

:49:48. > :49:53.to talk about the second big issue facing Wales which is the European

:49:54. > :49:57.referendum coming up in June. I have a long track record at a

:49:58. > :50:04.Eurosceptic, I found some difficulties in a former life as a

:50:05. > :50:07.result of my membership of business for sterling. It was a great

:50:08. > :50:12.political effort to ensure the did not join the single currency and

:50:13. > :50:22.nobody today says we should have. That campaign was correct. But it

:50:23. > :50:28.had a simple slogan, and Europe is not perfect but it gives us more

:50:29. > :50:32.than we have to give in. We do benefit from our membership. When

:50:33. > :50:37.you talk about the North Wales economy, it is sobering to think

:50:38. > :50:42.that just last week we had the largest company in North Wales,

:50:43. > :50:46.Airbus, stating clearly that they consider EU member ship to be

:50:47. > :50:50.important. Horizon nuclear in Anglesey, which possibly will be the

:50:51. > :50:55.first new generation nuclear power station, they stated quite clearly

:50:56. > :51:01.that they thought it was important to remain in. We should also reflect

:51:02. > :51:06.on the small companies and businesses that benefit from our

:51:07. > :51:15.membership. In my constituency I would like to highlight Sean Taylor

:51:16. > :51:33.from Sip World, a company which did not exist in 2010. That company now