07/03/2016

:00:00. > :00:00.are very important part of education and we have encouraged more schools

:00:00. > :00:09.to organise the strip for young people as much as possible. I'm

:00:10. > :00:14.sorry, but we must move on. Urgent question, Mr Alistair Carmichael.

:00:15. > :00:16.Does the secretary of state from the event make a defendant on

:00:17. > :00:22.announcement that the Royal Navy will join Nato forces in the

:00:23. > :00:26.interception of migrants and refugees in the Mediterranean?

:00:27. > :00:33.Secretary of State for defence, Michael Fallon. The scale of the

:00:34. > :00:36.migration challenge, Mr Speaker, requires Nato, the European Union

:00:37. > :00:40.and other European countries across Europe to work together to address

:00:41. > :00:45.both its symptoms, the constant flow of migrants and the conditions we

:00:46. > :00:48.see them faith and the causes in Syria and beyond. We must also work

:00:49. > :00:53.with locals ability and authority of to tackle the gains that profit from

:00:54. > :00:57.smuggling migrants. The United Kingdom has already been engaged for

:00:58. > :01:02.several months with the home office ship deployed in the region since

:01:03. > :01:05.November, with a detachment of border force officers. On the 11th

:01:06. > :01:13.at B be wary, Nato defence ministers to the decision -- February two AA

:01:14. > :01:16.Nato ships to intercept the migrant boats and described the smugglers

:01:17. > :01:22.business market. Nato s standing business market. Nato s standing

:01:23. > :01:25.maritime group to arrive in the region within 48 hours of the

:01:26. > :01:28.decision and has been conducting initial reconnaissance and the

:01:29. > :01:34.valence of illegal crossings since then. The Nato secretary-general

:01:35. > :01:38.outlined in a statement yesterday evening the discussions between Nato

:01:39. > :01:42.Turkey and Greece have now agreed that Nato bustle can now operate in

:01:43. > :01:47.Greek and Turkish territory and waters. We have therefore decided

:01:48. > :01:56.that the UK contribution is to send our at a man's grey and a maritime

:01:57. > :01:59.helicopter to the Aegean Sea. They will be there to support the Nato

:02:00. > :02:10.monitoring and surveillance task, they will work alongside three

:02:11. > :02:14.border force boats. One of which is on its way to the region and that

:02:15. > :02:16.further one expected to start operations later this month.

:02:17. > :02:21.Together they will support the Turkish and Greek Coast Guard and

:02:22. > :02:28.the U front next mission. The Prime Minister Mr Speaker is attending

:02:29. > :02:30.today s EU Turkey summit on migration, contributing to the EU

:02:31. > :02:36.and Nato missions to counter smuggling is only part of the

:02:37. > :02:40.government s wider approach to tackle the root causes of irregular

:02:41. > :02:43.migration. The United Kingdom is leading the way in tackling these

:02:44. > :02:49.issues at their stores, providing significant amounts of aid to assist

:02:50. > :02:54.in stabilising troubled regions and lessening the need for people to

:02:55. > :02:58.leave. Meantime, this Royal Navy deployment is an important part of

:02:59. > :03:04.the international effort to assist the Turkish and Greek authorities in

:03:05. > :03:13.reducing this criminal and dangerous people trafficking. Can I thank the

:03:14. > :03:17.secretary of date for that answer and thank him for coming here to

:03:18. > :03:21.make this statement today. What he describes is a series of tactics,

:03:22. > :03:27.many of which I think will find Rob support in this house, but it does

:03:28. > :03:32.seem to me that they do not add up to a strategy. It is referred to

:03:33. > :03:36.today in the press of being a war against the Bulldogs occurs. If we

:03:37. > :03:40.are to win that war, Mr Speaker, I yield that what we need to do is cut

:03:41. > :03:44.off the supply to the people jive records of those who are desperate

:03:45. > :03:50.enough to pay to use them and of course that means in the longer term

:03:51. > :03:54.these in their countries of origin, but in the short to medium term

:03:55. > :04:00.surely that means a series of safe and legal route into Europe,

:04:01. > :04:03.expansion of the refugee family scheme and introduction of

:04:04. > :04:08.humanitarian visas. Can the Secretary of State tell me today

:04:09. > :04:14.what will happen to those seeking refuge who are intercepted in the

:04:15. > :04:18.Aegean Sea? Will they be taken back to Turkey and does that not been run

:04:19. > :04:24.contrary to the principle of non-defilement which is at the

:04:25. > :04:29.centre of international refugee law? Will be done to keep under review

:04:30. > :04:34.the widely questioned status of Turkey as a safe country to which

:04:35. > :04:37.people can be returned? Is he aware of the reports from human rights

:04:38. > :04:43.watch describing people being sent from Turkey back to Syria? And what

:04:44. > :04:49.impact does the government think that this action will have on the

:04:50. > :04:54.flow of refugees elsewhere? The secretary of state I am sure will be

:04:55. > :04:58.aware that last year 35,000 people came to Europe through Russia, and

:04:59. > :05:03.what will be the impact but not land route, if the sea route is to be

:05:04. > :05:11.closed down? And what will this mean for the deployment of resources

:05:12. > :05:16.elsewhere? In the Mediterranean in particular, assisting those

:05:17. > :05:18.travelling from Libya to a delete? The Secretary of State will be aware

:05:19. > :05:22.that because guard cutters were devoid on that route last year, will

:05:23. > :05:26.they be available to help those who get into difficulty on that route

:05:27. > :05:35.which will see many more deaths by drowning than that in the AG Mr

:05:36. > :05:38.Speaker, if this is to be a war against people jive thinking then I

:05:39. > :05:44.fear that as with all wars there'll be in a civic terms and the

:05:45. > :05:49.epistemic ends it seems to me will be those who are desperate enough to

:05:50. > :05:52.undertake the journey across the Aegean Sea, across the land route

:05:53. > :05:56.and across other parts of the Mediterranean. Will the secretary of

:05:57. > :05:59.state in Germany and assure the House that these people will be

:06:00. > :06:06.uppermost in the government s consideration? I am grateful to the

:06:07. > :06:09.right honourable gentleman. There are of cores already and is that

:06:10. > :06:14.victims of the stick will try clicking. Several hundred have

:06:15. > :06:18.drowned this winter, several thousand drowned this year. Last

:06:19. > :06:24.year and it is in all our interest to reduce the number of people who

:06:25. > :06:28.attempt this dangerous crossing. He is right, we have to work at cutting

:06:29. > :06:32.off the supply, much further back and we have done that I think

:06:33. > :06:38.through our contribution to the reconstruction of Syria and our aid

:06:39. > :06:46.programmes both in Pakistan and Afghanistan and much further south

:06:47. > :06:49.and east and west Africa. So far as the creation of safe Routes is

:06:50. > :06:53.concerned, I'm not convinced that establishing some roots as safer

:06:54. > :06:59.than others will do anything to reduce the flow am on the contrary.

:07:00. > :07:02.I think we need to increase the capacity, particularly of the

:07:03. > :07:07.Turkish authorities and the Turkish Coast Guard to be able to intercept

:07:08. > :07:11.these boats before they set off on what is a very very dangerous

:07:12. > :07:17.crossing. He asked me specifically about interception. The position is

:07:18. > :07:23.that if a boat in distress can be intercepted in Turkish waters,

:07:24. > :07:26.Turkish authorities, or have alerted by the helicopters that are now

:07:27. > :07:29.deploying from the international forest, then of cores buried a

:07:30. > :07:37.greater chance the Turkish Coast Guard will be able to return that

:07:38. > :07:39.particular boat to the Turkish side. If they are intercepted and

:07:40. > :07:47.international Greek waters they are more likely to be taken to the Greek

:07:48. > :07:52.reception points. So far as the effect on the alternative route that

:07:53. > :08:00.opened up last summer from Libya to Italy is concerned, HMS Enterprise

:08:01. > :08:05.is still on station any Iranians see and gasp Iranians see and just

:08:06. > :08:09.yesterday rescued around 100 people. What is important in this I think is

:08:10. > :08:15.to begin to establish a policy of return, so there is less incentive

:08:16. > :08:18.for migrants to attempt these extremely dangerous crossings and

:08:19. > :08:27.less incentives for the criminal gangs to make money out of them

:08:28. > :08:30.doing so. If it is now established European Union policy and UK policy

:08:31. > :08:35.that it illegal migrants should be returned, why aren't the

:08:36. > :08:38.instructions to personnel on our place to take people back where they

:08:39. > :08:44.came from if they do not have legal papers or are genuine asylum

:08:45. > :08:47.seekers? My right honourable friend, the prime is in Brussels today

:08:48. > :08:54.discussing the entire issue of returns. With European Union and

:08:55. > :09:00.other countries who are attending that particular meeting. It is

:09:01. > :09:05.unlikely that are at a man's brain itself is going to be involved in

:09:06. > :09:10.rescuing from boat in distress, of course there is the floor of the sea

:09:11. > :09:13.that places that have obligation on her but she is going to be further

:09:14. > :09:17.off because and it is more likely that a helicopter will be able to

:09:18. > :09:24.identify both matter closer to shore and in immediate distress that can

:09:25. > :09:32.then be picked up by the Turkish or Greek authorities and returned under

:09:33. > :09:36.their law. . And gratitude of the whole house are with the men and

:09:37. > :09:41.women aboard the ship as babes join the Nato deployment in the AGN see.

:09:42. > :09:48.Once again this crisis demonstrate how the British armed forces played

:09:49. > :09:52.a crucial role on our domestic and peace and security across the world.

:09:53. > :09:55.People chugging generates billions from misery and suffering of some of

:09:56. > :09:59.the planet s most desperate people. There is a real urgency not just to

:10:00. > :10:02.deter and bring to justice the people responsible but also

:10:03. > :10:05.deterring those victims from undertaking the perilous journey.

:10:06. > :10:09.While we welcome the role disabled play is made and all conjugates into

:10:10. > :10:15.a gigantic process and have made a reminder of how the Royal Navy rest

:10:16. > :10:19.surveys lead has been reduced by one 2010. Does he feel unable resources

:10:20. > :10:25.are too stretched to play a larger role and can us the belief the two

:10:26. > :10:30.border vessels aren't there not protecting UK sees because of the 20

:10:31. > :10:35.point -- 2010 at the SR. What more can you tell is about when the

:10:36. > :10:43.national said strategy building report and... Nato joining what is

:10:44. > :10:47.previously been an EU role further demonstrated the extent to which our

:10:48. > :10:49.role in the EU enhances our global security. Does he agree with the

:10:50. > :10:53.bright minister that leaving the EU may bring refugee camps to be

:10:54. > :10:56.streets of brain and moral -- what more can he tells about how he

:10:57. > :11:01.believes EU hopes to keep her in faith? Once again with the loop read

:11:02. > :11:05.his servicemen and women making the world safer and fairer. The

:11:06. > :11:09.government must make sure we have a strategy in place to ensure an error

:11:10. > :11:11.sea and land Britain can always answer the call. I am grateful to

:11:12. > :11:21.honourable gentleman and let me reciprocate. Good wishes to Captain

:11:22. > :11:29.Taylor and the crew, and the helicopter squadron that is

:11:30. > :11:34.accompanying the ship. So far as its efficiency is concerned, there are

:11:35. > :11:38.five Nato ships on station at the moment -- sufficiency. A German ship

:11:39. > :11:43.which is the flagship of the group, eight weeks ship, eight and 80 and

:11:44. > :11:49.said, an Italian ship and a Turkish ship. We will be making its sixth

:11:50. > :11:52.straight out across the AGN feed. Of course there are 22 other members of

:11:53. > :11:59.Nato and I hope they also will be considering what contribution they

:12:00. > :12:02.can make. But our ship is a substantial ship and have the

:12:03. > :12:08.helicopter performed to contribute significantly to the surveillance,

:12:09. > :12:11.particularly of the middle part of the AGN see, we envision the ship

:12:12. > :12:19.will be operating mainly in waters just last of kills. So far is the

:12:20. > :12:22.relevance of the ship building strategy is concerned we are

:12:23. > :12:27.developing that Chatterjee at the nose and in light of the strategic

:12:28. > :12:33.defence review and we hope to complete it later this year. So far

:12:34. > :12:42.as it attempt to bring Nato and European Union membership into this

:12:43. > :12:45.today, let me be clear with him, the mission in BC between Libya and

:12:46. > :12:54.Italy is a European Union mission because it employees it may need the

:12:55. > :13:04.legal authorities that the European Union can add in dealing with the

:13:05. > :13:07.new Libyan government. The group deployed is a Nato mission because

:13:08. > :13:13.it involves a ship with a Turkish Navy and is dealing largely with

:13:14. > :13:18.migrants from Turkey, which is a member of Nato. Every playlist

:13:19. > :13:21.rating that we need to be -- perfectly illustrating we need to be

:13:22. > :13:25.members of both Nato and the European Union and that being

:13:26. > :13:33.members of both gives us the best of both worlds.

:13:34. > :13:39.Thank you, Mr Speaker. I think my -- thank my right honourable friend for

:13:40. > :13:43.his payment and indeed the Royal Navy for their amendment to this

:13:44. > :13:46.mission demonstrating that we have an important role to play in

:13:47. > :13:51.European defence and security. But my right honourable friend, by

:13:52. > :13:54.making this clear that this is a Nato mission, underlines the point

:13:55. > :13:59.that it is Nato that provides easy purity of our continent and not the

:14:00. > :14:07.European Union as the government seeks to present. This is a Nato

:14:08. > :14:12.mission and the proposal of Germany because Germany was leading this

:14:13. > :14:19.particular maritime standing group, that the equally important mission

:14:20. > :14:24.in the Iranian see between Sicily and Libya is a European Union

:14:25. > :14:30.mission and there are other examples of European union missions in Bosnia

:14:31. > :14:40.or off Africa that have been equally effective in saving lives. We

:14:41. > :14:43.welcome the decision by the UK government to join with Nato in

:14:44. > :14:48.trying to tackle this truly awful level of humanitarian -- human

:14:49. > :14:53.trafficking in the Mediterranean, but this has to be we believe a

:14:54. > :15:00.2-pronged approach, one that involves stoppingly trafficking but

:15:01. > :15:04.also rescuing and resettling of the refugees. May I put on record my

:15:05. > :15:07.thanks to the people of Butte in my constituency who have shown such

:15:08. > :15:13.support and compassion to those refugees who have arrived in their

:15:14. > :15:16.community? And pager beeped to be Scottish Government to have given

:15:17. > :15:21.the refugees the best possible chance to integrate as fully as

:15:22. > :15:27.possible. As this crisis worsens, the need for the UK government to

:15:28. > :15:32.connect to take -- commit to take 3000 unaccompanied vulnerable and

:15:33. > :15:36.displaced children becomes ever more of an object priority. And further

:15:37. > :15:40.to that and looking at the bigger picture, when will the Secretary of

:15:41. > :15:43.State update this house as he promised he would do on the

:15:44. > :15:51.government s military strategy in Syria? On the first point, let me

:15:52. > :15:57.welcome the contribution that comment is making. I am sure he will

:15:58. > :16:03.want to know that some of the Royal Marines are from the East Coast of

:16:04. > :16:09.Scotland and I am glad that he welcomes this particular mission. So

:16:10. > :16:15.far as his question on refugees is concerned, he will know that we have

:16:16. > :16:19.already committed to taking refugees from the camps in Syria and indeed

:16:20. > :16:27.taking unaccompanied children that the UN CA -- UNC HR can identify

:16:28. > :16:32.further west in Europe and we have played a leading part in that as

:16:33. > :16:40.indeed we have in the reconstruction conference that is taking place for

:16:41. > :16:44.the future of Syria. So far as military operations in Syria are

:16:45. > :16:50.concerned, we regularly add date -- update the information available on

:16:51. > :16:58.the ministry of defence website and I am happy to answer any additional

:16:59. > :17:02.questions that he has. Think you, Mr Speaker. I welcome the Secretary of

:17:03. > :17:06.State Bath Bahebeck and the role of the Navy, many hands to make light

:17:07. > :17:12.work. Forgive me for being overly complicit but I like to understand,

:17:13. > :17:16.is best latest offering purely about moving bodies back to coastlines or

:17:17. > :17:18.how does it integrate with the resettlement of refugees in the

:17:19. > :17:23.chaos that our European neighbours on themselves and? The primary

:17:24. > :17:27.purpose of this mission is to provide monitoring, surveillance and

:17:28. > :17:33.reconnaissance of the migration route across the AGN see which will

:17:34. > :17:41.better enable the Turkish and Greek coast guards to intercept the bows

:17:42. > :17:44.and to disrupt the business model of the criminal traffickers. And where

:17:45. > :17:51.they can intercept these both in either characters or group waters

:17:52. > :17:59.they are able to better rescue there those on board before they get too

:18:00. > :18:02.far out to see any dangerous areas. Obviously, preventing people risking

:18:03. > :18:07.their lives by making such a dangerous journey is the right thing

:18:08. > :18:11.for the EU and Nato to try to do, but for those who have already

:18:12. > :18:16.arrived in Greece, there are 13,000 of them now at the Macedonian border

:18:17. > :18:21.in terrible wet and damp and cold conditions. Children with Ron Titus,

:18:22. > :18:25.he has said that the British government will not do anything to

:18:26. > :18:26.take any of them, where does he think those 13,000 people should go

:18:27. > :18:35.Woods -- Ron Titus. The British government is taking

:18:36. > :18:38.refugees from Syria as we have already made beer and some of those

:18:39. > :18:41.have arrived here in the United Kingdom. My right honourable friend

:18:42. > :18:47.Prime Minister is urging his European counterparts to get to

:18:48. > :18:52.grips with the problem of those who have arrived with inside the

:18:53. > :18:55.Schengen area and to take steps to make sure that they are not being

:18:56. > :19:05.shuttled from one sense to the next and that Europe has to adopt a more

:19:06. > :19:08.sensible policy. Thank you, Mr Speaker. May I ask my right

:19:09. > :19:15.honourable friend about the rules for interception. For instance, what

:19:16. > :19:20.would happen if the people on these makeshift craft refused to get on

:19:21. > :19:27.board the Royal Naval vessel or indeed some of the people

:19:28. > :19:34.traffickers opened fire on our sailors or Marines? On the first

:19:35. > :19:38.point, certainly it has been our experience so far in the last year

:19:39. > :19:44.that migrants and those that are thinking or in distress are very

:19:45. > :19:48.much welcoming the presence of the Royal Navy and are very eager indeed

:19:49. > :19:54.to get on board the ships that we have deployed because they know then

:19:55. > :19:58.that they are going to be safe. These traffickers themselves appear

:19:59. > :20:05.to take very great care not to be on these vessels, they have launched by

:20:06. > :20:09.those who are being smuggled. But where they can be identified, and

:20:10. > :20:13.this is where the monitoring and surveillance can really assist, or

:20:14. > :20:18.they can be identified then they can be and charged and prosecuted as

:20:19. > :20:25.indeed they now are being in some parts of Turkey. Can I welcome this

:20:26. > :20:29.deployment as he knows 1 million migrants have entered the EU last

:20:30. > :20:34.year, 885,000 burglaries and Europol told us last week that 90% of those

:20:35. > :20:39.who have entered have come as a result of a assistance from criminal

:20:40. > :20:43.gangs will stop we are in this place because of the failure of the U and

:20:44. > :20:47.in particular contexts to deal with these gangs properly will stop or

:20:48. > :20:50.has been no alternative to the business model that he has described

:20:51. > :20:55.that the job lawyers are adopting. Does he agree with me that the

:20:56. > :20:59.critical country year is Turkey, and the issue is to stop the boats

:21:00. > :21:05.leaving in the first place, and what is key to that is giving Turkey the

:21:06. > :21:10.resources and the EU promised of the 3 million to get them to assist with

:21:11. > :21:13.this difficult problem? I do agree with almost all of that. It's

:21:14. > :21:19.important that the European Union follows through on its commitment of

:21:20. > :21:22.financial help to Turkey. It is important that we build up the

:21:23. > :21:27.capacity of the Turkish Coast Guard, and I hope this appointment will

:21:28. > :21:32.build up a picture of the gas deployment will build up a picture

:21:33. > :21:35.of the intelligence that the Turkish Coast Guard needs of every concert

:21:36. > :21:39.to intercept these vessels before they have left Turkish water, then

:21:40. > :21:42.they can be returned to Turkey and that will be the clearest possible

:21:43. > :21:47.signal to those who are paying large sums of money that this journey will

:21:48. > :21:54.be futile and they can be discouraged from making it. Is my

:21:55. > :21:57.right honourable friend satisfied that Turkey is doing enough at the

:21:58. > :22:00.moment to help itself Woods there are tens of thousands of plastic

:22:01. > :22:07.beanies being imported by Turkey from China to allow this trade to

:22:08. > :22:10.continue, and similarly there are funny life jackets being sold in

:22:11. > :22:14.Izmir. Why isn't the Turkish government doing something about

:22:15. > :22:20.this? Of course the biggest government can do more -- of course

:22:21. > :22:23.the Turkish government can do more, but so can other government in

:22:24. > :22:29.Greece, so can the Greek government. There is a lack of capacity in both

:22:30. > :22:34.Greece and Turkey to deal with what is now migration on a really

:22:35. > :22:36.substantial scale. We all need to help here. The European Union needs

:22:37. > :22:43.to get a grip of its migration policy, Turkey will need help, but

:22:44. > :22:49.it still needs to be more robust in dealing with these migration issues

:22:50. > :22:53.and we have decided as a government with the largest navy in Europe,

:22:54. > :23:02.that we also should be helping where we can. I welcome this employment

:23:03. > :23:09.and wish the ships and crew all the best, but that I ask the Secretary

:23:10. > :23:13.of State with the legal status is of immigrants if they are picked up by

:23:14. > :23:16.the ship particularly if they claim asylum because this was an issue

:23:17. > :23:23.which we face when we were in office in terms of operation off the coast

:23:24. > :23:33.of Somalia? The legal position is they cannot claim asylum on board if

:23:34. > :23:36.it is not an UK territorial waters. It is not as easy as the honourable

:23:37. > :23:42.gentleman might ink. But we are working with other governments to

:23:43. > :23:46.develop a policy that will ensure those who are picked up in

:23:47. > :23:51.international waters can be returned to Turkey, and present the position

:23:52. > :23:54.is if they are picked up in Turkish waters by the Turkish Coast Guard

:23:55. > :23:58.then obviously they can be taken back to Turkey. As I have said will

:23:59. > :24:01.stop currently if they are picked up an international waters and the

:24:02. > :24:08.boundary the air of Coors is, legs and indeed -- of course complex and

:24:09. > :24:13.disputed in the islands of the Eastern Aegean Sea, if there picked

:24:14. > :24:18.up in Greek or international waters at the moment they will be taken to

:24:19. > :24:24.a place of safety increased. -- increases.

:24:25. > :24:31.There is the capacity for Turkey to do this on their own, how can we be

:24:32. > :24:34.sure this is not a revolving door of migrants who are actually being

:24:35. > :24:38.taken back to Turkey, allowed to stay there a while and then back

:24:39. > :24:43.again onto both and trying their luck several times? What assurance

:24:44. > :24:46.can we get that won't be recurring? I think the best assurance I can get

:24:47. > :24:51.my honourable friend is that we are determined to try to help Turkey

:24:52. > :24:56.break this business model by ensuring those who smuggle, those

:24:57. > :25:02.who think women or unaccompanied children out on insecure boats onto

:25:03. > :25:07.what is maybe a short but very dangerous sea crossing, that they

:25:08. > :25:13.can be identified, will be charged and price you did through the

:25:14. > :25:17.Turkish gas prosecuted through the Turkish courts and we can even

:25:18. > :25:26.surely therefore discourage the flow from the beginning. In 2014 we

:25:27. > :25:31.failed to finance properly to the Frontex operations, there is it some

:25:32. > :25:35.other lack of strategy and urgency. The deployment was announced two

:25:36. > :25:37.months ago and I'm not clear what they're doing which we have not

:25:38. > :25:43.announced before but on the very specific point can I invite the

:25:44. > :25:47.Secretary of State to put in writing his understanding about the leading

:25:48. > :25:50.position of anybody picked up by our ship because quite frankly my

:25:51. > :25:52.understanding is closer to a member of North there am then the system he

:25:53. > :26:01.has just enunciated. As far as the deployment is

:26:02. > :26:04.concerned, it was announced last night following the agreement with

:26:05. > :26:11.the Secretary-General reached between Nato, Greece and Turkey. She

:26:12. > :26:16.is not right on that. It is not the aim of the beta pick-up large

:26:17. > :26:22.numbers of migrants. She will be further offshore than that. As I

:26:23. > :26:29.say, the object is that she will be able to deploy her helicopter and

:26:30. > :26:35.help with the rest of the Nato standing group, help the Turkish and

:26:36. > :26:39.Greek coast guards and the Frontex operation. Help them build up a

:26:40. > :26:46.proper picture of where they are setting off from and help them be

:26:47. > :26:51.intersected before they get out into international waters. I'm happy to

:26:52. > :26:57.write to her about the precise legal point that she raises. I visited the

:26:58. > :27:03.point of embarkation and arrival and spoke to migrants and refugees, I

:27:04. > :27:06.found them extremely well informed into respond to clear signals that

:27:07. > :27:11.government give them, the migrants I spoke to under the strong impression

:27:12. > :27:16.that there are truly unlikely to be turned around in the Mediterranean

:27:17. > :27:20.and returned it to Turkey. The spirit of the migrants I spoke to,

:27:21. > :27:27.surely my honourable friend will agree with me it is essential that

:27:28. > :27:31.Europe intercepts as much as possible and return them to Turkey.

:27:32. > :27:34.It will be heard by migrants, refugees and people smugglers, they

:27:35. > :27:42.will take note. It is the only sure way to deter the trend. I agree with

:27:43. > :27:47.my honourable friend. The signals that are picked up very quickly and

:27:48. > :27:52.very clearly by large numbers of young men who are further down the

:27:53. > :27:59.chain in Pakistan, Afghanistan or indeed in Iraq. As we have seen over

:28:00. > :28:06.the Libyan coast line, further south in Africa itself. What has not

:28:07. > :28:11.happened so far is that there has not been any policy of returns. No

:28:12. > :28:14.one has actually been sent back. And we need to start with those who are

:28:15. > :28:22.intercepted in Turkish waters and get them sent back to Turkey. We

:28:23. > :28:28.start to stem the flow that way. On Friday at the pleasure of meeting

:28:29. > :28:34.with oasis in Cardiff in my own constituency, in a group supporting

:28:35. > :28:40.the people making those hazardous journeys. I also met with the

:28:41. > :28:49.coordinator who raise concerns with me about... Also the driving factors

:28:50. > :28:50.who are causing people to make these attorneys. Is he satisfied that

:28:51. > :28:57.there is enough global attention being played to those issues as well

:28:58. > :29:04.as Syria and Iraq was light the honourable member is right. When I

:29:05. > :29:07.visited there last summer, just a few weeks after she had begun

:29:08. > :29:13.operations in the Mediterranean Girardi picked up some 20 - 25

:29:14. > :29:16.different migrants from East Africa and West Africa. It is late is

:29:17. > :29:23.important to help tackle this problem much further back outsourced

:29:24. > :29:26.and do what we can to stabilize these regions to grow their

:29:27. > :29:32.economies and to give young man every incentive to stay behind them

:29:33. > :29:37.build a life that, rather than to set out on these very hazardous

:29:38. > :29:42.journeys. We are contributing substantially to development in

:29:43. > :29:49.Africa, both on the east and West. We have latterly announced he's

:29:50. > :29:56.keeping announcements to serve Saddam and...

:29:57. > :30:03.Can ask the Secretary of State whether the capability exists on the

:30:04. > :30:06.Royal Naval ship to gather evidence particularly about the seaworthiness

:30:07. > :30:09.of the boats and statements from many people were picked up, so that

:30:10. > :30:15.those can be used in future prosecutions to tackle these

:30:16. > :30:25.criminal grounds of trafficking? Yes, the other units deployed are

:30:26. > :30:32.well able to gather the information that my horrible friend refers to --

:30:33. > :30:34.honourable. The key is that it needs to be brought together brought to

:30:35. > :30:40.the attention of the Turkish authorities so they can start to

:30:41. > :30:45.bear down more on these particular operations and to know the

:30:46. > :30:56.masterminds behind these criminal things. And to get, to start to

:30:57. > :31:02.reduce the flow. I appreciate it is going to be on an observation

:31:03. > :31:07.mission, and deterrent mission. Can I ask the Secretary of State what

:31:08. > :31:11.personnel will be there from Home Office and what training will be

:31:12. > :31:15.given to the staff in relation to training to work with vulnerable

:31:16. > :31:23.children, isolated children and vulnerable adults who may well be

:31:24. > :31:29.picked up and we don't want them to return to the hands of traffickers.

:31:30. > :31:37.Those deployed on the post, do have the training. This ship is a 16,000

:31:38. > :31:44.tonne ship and is going to operate in deeper waters, to the west of

:31:45. > :31:51.there, it is less likely that man's Bay will be picking up large numbers

:31:52. > :31:57.of migrants. It is the helicopter that will be identifying those boats

:31:58. > :32:04.in distress much closer to the shore and working closely with the two

:32:05. > :32:11.respective Coast Guard. BEV enable force concentration too concentrates

:32:12. > :32:18.on Somalia policy, but it says that provide support to other missions,

:32:19. > :32:22.why have they not been able to reach this without Nato support and when

:32:23. > :32:25.does he expect that the EU will expand to the point that it is

:32:26. > :32:34.capable of deploying British naval power without Nato? The maritime

:32:35. > :32:41.standing group which operates in the Eastern Mediterranean, it was a

:32:42. > :32:47.logical group to dope boys to be edgy and and happens to comprise as

:32:48. > :32:52.well a Greek and a turkey ship. -- at GMC. That is important when

:32:53. > :32:57.working in Aegean waters. As well as the Canadian, German and a tying

:32:58. > :33:03.vessel. It is the Nato group in this instance that was ideally placed. As

:33:04. > :33:11.he says, the EU Naval force commanded from North word is bearing

:33:12. > :33:16.down on piracy in Africa. It has been a successful mission. It is an

:33:17. > :33:22.EU mission, to enable the pirates themselves to be prosecuted in third

:33:23. > :33:27.countries, you need the legal power available to the European Union,

:33:28. > :33:30.that would not be available to Nato. Another illustration of how it is

:33:31. > :33:37.useful to be members of both the European Union and of the alliance.

:33:38. > :33:44.I welcome this announcement by the Defense Secretary. Can I ask him

:33:45. > :33:50.whether he foresees the need to have additional deployments of Royal Navy

:33:51. > :33:57.ships in the Mediterranean to assist those that are are ready there,

:33:58. > :34:03.including the border force cutters. In respect of those two cutters,

:34:04. > :34:06.what assessment has been made on the impact of policemen at our own

:34:07. > :34:12.waters as well, which is obviously up equal importance of people living

:34:13. > :34:18.in the United Kingdom? We will keep our deployment under review, we have

:34:19. > :34:22.Mounts Bay now and the three border force cutters in the Aegean Sea, we

:34:23. > :34:30.have HMS enterprise and the Iranians see helping to police the route

:34:31. > :34:36.between Libya and Sicily. We are able to do that and still fulfill

:34:37. > :34:40.our understanding commitments that he may be referring to, both in the

:34:41. > :34:45.balls and in home waters. The border force cutters have the assistance of

:34:46. > :34:52.military personnel on board, supplementing the border force. And

:34:53. > :35:01.indeed they have at force protection as well. Chancellor Merkel's

:35:02. > :35:09.announcement that the borders are open and everyone was welcome,

:35:10. > :35:17.usually compounded the migration factor by creating a compounding...

:35:18. > :35:24.What EU laws have allowed him to make the decision in the first place

:35:25. > :35:27.which ultimately cost people their lives. The German canceler is in

:35:28. > :35:34.Brussels today engaging with my right honourable friend the Prime

:35:35. > :35:38.Minister in a search for better control of migration policy. So far

:35:39. > :35:43.as the legal basis for what is happening inside Europe at the

:35:44. > :35:50.moment, that is the Schengen area, which we are not a part of. We still

:35:51. > :35:53.retained until Beuran borders. That does not absolve us of the

:35:54. > :35:59.responsibility, the humanitarian responsibility to help where we can.

:36:00. > :36:03.That is not... We are one of the largest countries in Europe and we

:36:04. > :36:12.continued on the European countries to get some grub of the migration

:36:13. > :36:17.crisis. -- grip. With more refugees being sent back to Turkey, I must

:36:18. > :36:21.ask the Secretary of State again, questions prose by my right

:36:22. > :36:26.honourable friend, which is what protection is in place for the

:36:27. > :36:30.refugees going back to Turkey? They won't be sent back to Syria, is the

:36:31. > :36:37.center you stay confident that Turkey is a country where refugees

:36:38. > :36:41.can safely be returned to? We certainly abide by our international

:36:42. > :36:47.obligations under the refugee convention, which means that we

:36:48. > :36:53.could not return any individual to a country where they might be in

:36:54. > :36:59.danger of persecution or inhuman treatment. That is why I said, those

:37:00. > :37:05.picked up in international waters or in Greek waters will not be returned

:37:06. > :37:08.to Turkey. In the first instance, there are discussions going on with

:37:09. > :37:11.the Turkish government to be sure that anybody who is returned to

:37:12. > :37:20.Turkey, from outside Turkish waters, can be dealt with safely. In

:37:21. > :37:26.associating myself with the tribute being paid to Royal Navy, Royal

:37:27. > :37:30.Marines and border force personnel, with the Secretary of State agree

:37:31. > :37:35.that it is not just those people to be thinking, but also their loved

:37:36. > :37:37.and families making sure that the separation is as short as possible.

:37:38. > :37:52.What other support to read about on the policing and intelligence front?

:37:53. > :37:55.-- can we. My honourable friend is right, he is right to draw our

:37:56. > :37:58.attention to the hidden heroes, the families who stand behind our

:37:59. > :38:05.service men and women. And of course who cannot know because it is the

:38:06. > :38:07.nature of service life, they cannot know how these unexpected

:38:08. > :38:14.deployments are likely to arise and quite often it will not know just

:38:15. > :38:20.how long they are expected to last. As far as one intelligence, there is

:38:21. > :38:25.increasing cooperation with counterterrorism and intelligence

:38:26. > :38:32.sharing with the authorities in Turkey. Turkey itself has been

:38:33. > :38:37.subject to terrorist attacks from Daesh and has every interest in

:38:38. > :38:41.cooperating with us. My right honourable friend has put many

:38:42. > :38:46.questions on the table on the situation off the coast of Turkey,

:38:47. > :38:49.it is also been pointed out that there is a migration challenge from

:38:50. > :38:54.north Africa cross the Mediterranean. Can you say what

:38:55. > :39:03.steps the Italian naval forces and Coast Guard are taking to enhance

:39:04. > :39:08.their ability to intercept refugees. He is right to draw our attention to

:39:09. > :39:13.the other route which opened up significantly last summer and is

:39:14. > :39:17.beginning to open up again as the sees moderate. It is a longer route

:39:18. > :39:24.and a much more dangerous route. In answer to the specific point, yes,

:39:25. > :39:29.the Italians are bearing the front of the naval effort on that side of

:39:30. > :39:36.Sicily, they are there with the ships and committed to develop the

:39:37. > :39:46.reception centers and the processing of those migrants who were rescued

:39:47. > :39:49.and taken to Sicily. With my routable friend agree with me that

:39:50. > :39:54.this Royal Naval deployment shows the importance of the type 26 global

:39:55. > :39:59.combat ship programme, not least because these forgetful have the

:40:00. > :40:02.flexibility to embark and play a really important role in future

:40:03. > :40:07.humanitarian efforts, not least of course because David Brown gear

:40:08. > :40:16.systems in my constituency, which he has visited are in the supply chain?

:40:17. > :40:22.I recall my visit to David Brown and seeing the gearing systems already

:40:23. > :40:33.being designed and produced. He is right about the usefulness of the

:40:34. > :40:37.forthcoming type 26 forgets. What is a important above all is the ability

:40:38. > :40:43.of the ship to carry a helicopter. That is what the Mounts Bay will

:40:44. > :40:48.bring to this particular operation, I note his point in my respect to

:40:49. > :40:59.the future development with the type 26 design. I recently spent a day...

:41:00. > :41:04.To learn more about the crucial work of the Royal Navy and the excellent

:41:05. > :41:07.work of our Armed Forces. In my right honourable friend outlined the

:41:08. > :41:14.work and the role of the Royal Navy, today, to help tackle the migration

:41:15. > :41:20.crisis? The Royal Navy has been engaged on the Bolivian route last

:41:21. > :41:25.summer, they were first on the scene and rest it several thousand

:41:26. > :41:31.migrants and help them be resettled in Italy. HMS Enterprises station

:41:32. > :41:38.there now. They are continuing that particular task, she rescued around

:41:39. > :41:45.100 migrants yesterday. In the Aegean Sea, Mounts Bay is on

:41:46. > :41:51.station, west of kiosk. I imagine it will not be too long before the

:41:52. > :41:56.helicopter is involved in physically saving lives as the Royal Navy has

:41:57. > :42:02.done already and has done for centuries. The Royal Navy deployment

:42:03. > :42:06.will turn up the heat on the traffickers and help keep migrants

:42:07. > :42:12.and asylum seekers say. Does my right honourable friend agree with

:42:13. > :42:15.me that our ability to take the steps underscores why it is right to

:42:16. > :42:21.increase defense spending each year of this Parliament? Yes, it does.

:42:22. > :42:27.The Royal Navy itself has been the biggest beneficiary of the increase

:42:28. > :42:31.in defense spending that my routable friend announced in his July budget

:42:32. > :42:37.in which we more details up in the strategic Defense review. It is

:42:38. > :42:42.worth the House noting that defense expenditure of will start to rise

:42:43. > :42:46.again in three weeks' time, the first time for six years and then

:42:47. > :42:50.we'll go on rising every year of this Parliament because we are

:42:51. > :42:59.putting the public finances in order from what we inherited and as we are

:43:00. > :43:10.running a strong economy. A small village on the Greek border has

:43:11. > :43:14.thousands of stranded refugees, it has been reported that a young boy

:43:15. > :43:19.has been killed after he accidentally electrocuted himself at

:43:20. > :43:23.the camp. The saving human cost of this kind is too high and that it

:43:24. > :43:31.clearly shows that more needs to be done to tackle this problem, simply

:43:32. > :43:34.by deploying ships. Rarely, lives have been lost already, thousands

:43:35. > :43:41.have drowned in the Mediterranean last year. Several hundred have

:43:42. > :43:44.drowned already this winter. I hope the honourable Lady would not

:43:45. > :43:49.decline the contribution that we would make, the Royal Navy saved

:43:50. > :44:01.lives last year and will be saving lives throughout this operation this

:44:02. > :44:10.year. Thank you Mr Speaker, I take my honourable friend for and coming

:44:11. > :44:15.to talk to us in person. It is an interesting case between the

:44:16. > :44:19.European Union and Nato, that Nato manages to go on and save lives in a

:44:20. > :44:25.problem for which of the EU at least has to take a large share of the

:44:26. > :44:29.blame because it exacerbated by the consequences of Chancellor Merkel's

:44:30. > :44:41.decision. It was Nato, actually they're doing things. Meeting with

:44:42. > :44:47.all the ministers does nothing... My honourable friend's views on this

:44:48. > :44:56.fairly well known -- views are fairly well known. To me, it does

:44:57. > :44:58.not really, in the end matter under who offers this mission is

:44:59. > :45:06.organized. The European Union mission is there between Libya

:45:07. > :45:09.and... This happens to be a Nato mission. What is more important that

:45:10. > :45:21.the mission takes place, that we do get involved and save lives, under

:45:22. > :45:29.whoever it is. Gale does my right honourable friend... The fact that

:45:30. > :45:37.Nato has been called upon to detect the Greek border is evidence that it

:45:38. > :45:41.is incapable of securing its own borders. People will be well advised

:45:42. > :45:48.to bear this in mind when they both and the referendum on the 23rd of

:45:49. > :45:52.June. My honourable friend may not agree on everything that people have

:45:53. > :45:56.to bear in mind when it comes to the referendum. Both Greece and Turkey

:45:57. > :46:02.are members of Nato. And that is why I think this mission has a greater

:46:03. > :46:09.chance of success under Nato auspices. I hope other countries

:46:10. > :46:13.will join it. I hope despite what my honourable friend said earlier that

:46:14. > :46:17.there will be a successful outcome to the discussions in Brussels

:46:18. > :46:21.today. And that the union will rise to the challenge of coping with what

:46:22. > :46:28.is the quite extraordinary migration crisis. Over the last few months I

:46:29. > :46:33.have been meeting with Marines and serviceman on ships, men and women

:46:34. > :46:39.who have been involved in the rescue was, some of the tales they tell me

:46:40. > :46:41.are heartbreaking. They bring their professionalism to this deployment.

:46:42. > :46:46.Would the Minister agree with me that it is vital to break this link

:46:47. > :46:53.between being smuggled into dangerous sea and being resettled

:46:54. > :46:58.and it is vital in smashing the business that these criminal gangs

:46:59. > :47:04.profit from? I agree with him. There are clearly people smugglers and

:47:05. > :47:09.Turkey you are making huge amounts of money from his operation and have

:47:10. > :47:13.no care at all as to whether they push these people off into these

:47:14. > :47:16.unstable boats and do not care if they will make it safely to the

:47:17. > :47:22.Greek islands that they are selling to. The sooner we can start to

:47:23. > :47:37.disrupt this particular evil trade, the better. Order! Point of order.

:47:38. > :47:40.Last week the new health accounts programme was announced, what is

:47:41. > :47:49.interesting is that seven of the tenor in the South, none in the

:47:50. > :47:53.Midlands, I wanted to find out whether the organizations in West

:47:54. > :47:57.Midlands have done it and if not why not. I has images in them for the

:47:58. > :48:00.information they refuse to give me a list of who bid for the programme

:48:01. > :48:05.and refuse to tell me the bases and which the bits have been allocated.

:48:06. > :48:10.The city could -- they told me it contained sensitive information. I

:48:11. > :48:19.did not want the names, just the areas. I got the same ridiculous

:48:20. > :48:25.reply to each of my request. Saying that the department does not hold

:48:26. > :48:28.the information. Frankly, I think that is just unbelievable. I do not

:48:29. > :48:35.think any sensible person could believe that answer for a minute.

:48:36. > :48:40.First, Mr Speaker, is the order for the department to provide frankly

:48:41. > :48:44.incredible answers like that? Second, why do the Department of

:48:45. > :48:50.Health and I refuse to answer, routinely, about lots of different

:48:51. > :48:55.NHS issues saying that it has nothing to do with them. It is it in

:48:56. > :48:57.order for ministers to invite responses to members questions and

:48:58. > :49:03.it is it in order for government departments and public areas to

:49:04. > :49:08.provide this basic information? I am very grateful for the honourable

:49:09. > :49:10.gentleman for his point of order. As you know the chair is not

:49:11. > :49:15.responsible for the content of ministerial answers. Though there is

:49:16. > :49:24.a general understanding in this place that ministers answers should

:49:25. > :49:29.be both timely and substantive. If the honourable judgment is

:49:30. > :49:34.dissatisfied with the core city of the replies he receives are a few

:49:35. > :49:39.judges that he has received no answer at all, the best recourse

:49:40. > :49:46.available to the honourable gentleman is to approach the

:49:47. > :49:56.Procedure Committee of which the chairman, who happily by serendipity

:49:57. > :50:03.or... Ism up -- is present to hear him or not, I hope the conversation

:50:04. > :50:07.between them will be fruitful. Any observation I make them is that he

:50:08. > :50:10.and I were at university together over 30 years ago, he was a very

:50:11. > :50:13.persistent woodpecker then and nothing has happened in the

:50:14. > :50:18.intervening three decades that has caused me to revise my opinion. I

:50:19. > :50:20.think if people for making the one ignoring the honourable gentleman,

:50:21. > :50:25.they are probably in for something of a rude shock because he does not

:50:26. > :50:30.give up, he tends to go on and on... LAUGHTER

:50:31. > :50:35.And if necessary, on. We will leave it there for today if there are no

:50:36. > :50:41.further points I hope the honourable gentleman's Pallett has been

:50:42. > :50:48.satisfied for today. Crime bill, second reading. To move the

:50:49. > :50:59.secondary bill I call the secretary of state for home department. Teresa

:51:00. > :51:03.made. -- Theresa May. I back to be... Is honourable members of this

:51:04. > :51:06.House are aware, since 2010, the government has implemented the most

:51:07. > :51:11.radical programme of police reform in decades. That programme is

:51:12. > :51:14.bringing about real and substantial change and has made policing more

:51:15. > :51:20.accountable, more efficient and more effective. At the same time, we have

:51:21. > :51:25.ensured that policing plays its part in helping to get this country's

:51:26. > :51:33.finances back on track. We reduce police budget, saving ?1.5 billion

:51:34. > :51:37.in cash terms, from 20 ten to 2016 and crime has fallen. To date I met

:51:38. > :51:42.down more than a quarter since 2010 according to the survey for England

:51:43. > :51:47.and walls. The task of police reform is not yet been missed. Last autumn,

:51:48. > :51:51.to the spending review we protected police pending intro terms over the

:51:52. > :51:57.course of this Parliament, what the police sector is taken into account.

:51:58. > :52:03.No one should be under the idea that this settlement allows police force

:52:04. > :52:06.is to ease off. Over the course of this Parliament, we must continue to

:52:07. > :52:09.apply the lessons of the past five and a half years and ensure that

:52:10. > :52:12.policing cannot does respond to the challenges of today, but the

:52:13. > :52:16.challenges of tomorrow. -- challenges. Crime has fallen, but it

:52:17. > :52:21.is still too high. The public rightly expects the highest of

:52:22. > :52:23.standards and integrity, and professionalism on the police. The

:52:24. > :52:27.challenges ahead are complex and difficult. The growing threats from

:52:28. > :52:34.terrorism, the changing minutes of serious organized crime, fraud and

:52:35. > :52:37.cyber crime are being increasing -- and the increasing role of

:52:38. > :52:41.technology. We have seen a number of people increasing to have the

:52:42. > :52:49.confidence to report child sexual abuse and other crimes such as

:52:50. > :52:55.domestic abuse and sexual violence. She was talking him him and about

:52:56. > :52:57.the cyber crime, she has made claims about crime numbers falling, does

:52:58. > :53:03.she not accept the crime is changing, I have answer to that sake

:53:04. > :53:08.even with the thousand cases a week of... 70% is from Daesh, huge

:53:09. > :53:15.amounts of change in the online demo activity, was she except that it may

:53:16. > :53:17.be changing and not falling. The figures from independent crime

:53:18. > :53:22.survey show that crime has fallen by more than a quarter since 2010.

:53:23. > :53:29.Crime is indeed changing, which is precisely why we have set up the

:53:30. > :53:32.national cyber crime unit inside the new National Crime Agency, which was

:53:33. > :53:35.formed over the last five and a half years. He quotes the figures of the

:53:36. > :53:41.1000 pieces of Internet material, that is slightly different of an

:53:42. > :53:43.issue, that is in reference to the number of pieces that on the

:53:44. > :53:46.Internet that are not being taken on average every week by the

:53:47. > :53:51.counterterrorism referral unit. People number of the public and

:53:52. > :53:56.others are able to refer pieces of material to that police and we have

:53:57. > :53:59.a very good relationship there, please work with the companies to

:54:00. > :54:07.take the material down, he is right, the quantity of that material being

:54:08. > :54:10.taken down, a lot of it will relate to Daesh, it is significant. And

:54:11. > :54:15.that is one of the reasons why we have not only worked to have them

:54:16. > :54:21.here in the UK, but we have worked with our European partners to ensure

:54:22. > :54:25.that there is a European comparable body which is being set up which is

:54:26. > :54:32.also working to take down terrorist and extremist material from the

:54:33. > :54:38.Internet. I will give way. I think is suggested for giving away, she

:54:39. > :54:43.mixed... I am sure she is aware of that Children's Society campaign to

:54:44. > :54:46.the several constituents of mine have written about this and ask

:54:47. > :54:55.whether I could raise the issue of whether this goal of this bill can

:54:56. > :55:00.address this issue. In the use of drug and alcohol among teenagers and

:55:01. > :55:02.the asked for more powers from police to intervene and stop sexual

:55:03. > :55:10.exploitation of vulnerable 16 and 17-year-olds, three drugs, drinks

:55:11. > :55:14.and also for a newer offense to those who use drugs and alcohol to

:55:15. > :55:19.be brought forward. As the right honourable Lady think that is a

:55:20. > :55:24.possibility? The honourable gentleman has raised a serious issue

:55:25. > :55:27.which is about the exploitation of those who are perhaps above the age

:55:28. > :55:32.of consent and therefore it raises different issues for the police and

:55:33. > :55:36.the policing of those crimes. However, I think the police have the

:55:37. > :55:39.powers available today, I am sure this is an issue that will be raised

:55:40. > :55:45.during the course of debate about this bill. What I would say, he is

:55:46. > :55:49.right to point out that of course when we talk about sexual

:55:50. > :55:53.exploitation, it is not just potentially younger children who are

:55:54. > :56:00.subject to it. But teenagers of the agency referred to as well. If

:56:01. > :56:05.policing is to successfully meet the challenges it faces over the next

:56:06. > :56:09.five years the most 22 reform police in, new capabilities and higher

:56:10. > :56:16.levels of rationalism and intelligence. Let me turn now to the

:56:17. > :56:19.provisions given in the bill. Many in this house with both excellent

:56:20. > :56:23.examples of collaboration between the emergency services in different

:56:24. > :56:25.parts of the country. Each of the emergency services has their own

:56:26. > :56:31.primary set of responsibilities, there is clearly scope to unlock the

:56:32. > :56:35.benefits it can be derived from closer working, including reducing

:56:36. > :56:38.costs. For example, police and fire rescue services have integrated most

:56:39. > :56:45.of their back-office functions and establish a single shared

:56:46. > :56:48.headquarters by 2018, delivering savings of nearly ?1.5 million a

:56:49. > :56:51.year and improving quality of service to the public. Other

:56:52. > :57:04.examples... I will give way. Very grateful to the Honorable lady,

:57:05. > :57:08.but with the joined up thinking there are some huge opportunities as

:57:09. > :57:11.they resort to the devolution agenda in course of places like greater

:57:12. > :57:21.Manchester where the police and crime Commissioner and the mayor,

:57:22. > :57:24.and the fire authority are all coterminous on these boundaries

:57:25. > :57:32.there is an opportunity to join up the services as a single unit. But

:57:33. > :57:35.in other devolved areas, it then deprives the areas for having those

:57:36. > :57:44.shared services the way Manchester will develop. First of all, the he

:57:45. > :57:53.is right about greater Manchester they have taken a number of steps

:57:54. > :57:57.and greater minutes Chester -- Manchester. They can respond to

:57:58. > :58:04.cardiac arrest cases in the region there was also... Police and fire

:58:05. > :58:10.rescue services are coming together so they are showing a real success

:58:11. > :58:18.on the ground that the collaboration to bring it very effective change

:58:19. > :58:24.for people. He is right that factor is an issue in the evolution deals.

:58:25. > :58:28.These crime commissioners should be involved in the devolution deals of

:58:29. > :58:32.the go-ahead but of course we are doing in the bill, is enabling these

:58:33. > :58:37.crime commissioners to have that collaboration with the fire

:58:38. > :58:40.services. It is something that local areas will see what suits them. Of

:58:41. > :58:48.the benefits we've seen biking reader Minister can be seen there

:58:49. > :58:53.are other examples for example in many other places putting this

:58:54. > :59:00.collaboration into practice under the leadership of call police of

:59:01. > :59:03.crime commissioners. I thank her for giving way and I'm quite grateful

:59:04. > :59:10.for her mentioning Hampshire before I did. Hoping for the continuing

:59:11. > :59:16.collaboration. I'm sure she is aware of the H three project which is

:59:17. > :59:25.really a genuine trailblazer in this area. The partners in that report

:59:26. > :59:33.already better progress. She embarks on this legislation. I should

:59:34. > :59:38.respond that the honourable gentleman is the apple of my eye

:59:39. > :59:48.when he says things like that. LAUGHTER I have to say to my

:59:49. > :59:53.honourable friend of course he hasn't put into practice what he

:59:54. > :59:58.says he wishes to do, but going back to the issue of Hampshire Hampshire

:59:59. > :00:03.is a very good example of the collaboration of working well my

:00:04. > :00:09.right honourable friend says he has visited Hampshire he is visited

:00:10. > :00:12.Winchester, these are all innovative ideas which provide the services to

:00:13. > :00:22.people. I commend Hampshire and other parts of the country... .

:00:23. > :00:28.Would you agree with me that collaboration in the operations play

:00:29. > :00:34.takes place, many my constituencies during the Somerset slides, have

:00:35. > :00:38.written to me and talk to me about the importance of the emergency

:00:39. > :00:41.services working in tandem. I think that is the best way to ensure that

:00:42. > :00:50.the honourable committee get the help they need. Yes my friend has

:00:51. > :00:53.made a very important point. When a merchant excuse it is important that

:00:54. > :00:57.these three services be called and working together. That is when the

:00:58. > :01:12.government did a great deal of work under the heading of ... To make

:01:13. > :01:19.sure during that emergency response all three were able to work

:01:20. > :01:23.together. But in relation to these issues the national picture remains

:01:24. > :01:26.patchy. It should not be the exception, and that is why I

:01:27. > :01:34.mentioned earlier in response to the Honorable Benjamin's intervention,

:01:35. > :01:37.the response of this bill it would help collaborate and drive closer

:01:38. > :01:44.working together across the country where it would include efficiency

:01:45. > :01:47.and effectiveness. In terms of the fire rescue services it would be a

:01:48. > :01:53.compelling case to take cooperation a step further. With collaboration,

:01:54. > :01:59.it was strengthened democratic oversight. Part of the bill defines

:02:00. > :02:07.the fire rescue take responsibility... . Thank you my

:02:08. > :02:11.honourable friend I knew you would except the most challenging and

:02:12. > :02:16.terms of pleasers as Northern Ireland. I know she is aware of the

:02:17. > :02:22.fantastic steps being taken in northern Ireland with the police and

:02:23. > :02:24.the fire authority. Could we not learn in this house from the

:02:25. > :02:35.consternation of northern Ireland has made and trained his? There are

:02:36. > :02:38.of course policing challenges in Northern Ireland, but it is right

:02:39. > :02:45.that they and fire rescue services were together that is a very good

:02:46. > :02:50.example. Going back to the last intervention from my right

:02:51. > :03:00.honourable friend referred to the flooding in Somerset. In in fact

:03:01. > :03:11.that is how collaboration should work. Over the past three years, PC

:03:12. > :03:18.sees they have proper look to shoot... Alongside driving reform

:03:19. > :03:27.and innovation, and finding fight me money for the taxpayer a long time

:03:28. > :03:34.to judge new candidates on their proposals. Through the ballot box. I

:03:35. > :03:43.believe it is now time... I give right way to the it is time to

:03:44. > :03:48.extend the benefits of the fire service word help the economy and

:03:49. > :03:52.effectiveness of public safety to do so I give way to my right honourable

:03:53. > :03:59.gentleman. Most grateful to the home Secretary for giving way. She is

:04:00. > :04:05.altered forever the police demanded our country. This is one of the

:04:06. > :04:11.examples. But that she share my concern for the number of candidates

:04:12. > :04:17.who are applying for jobs as chief constables? Have supposed of two

:04:18. > :04:20.fossils advertised in the last couple of years only one candidate

:04:21. > :04:29.has come forward for each of those jobs. The deputy has got the top job

:04:30. > :04:32.they all excellent candidates, but it is a worry isn't it that certain

:04:33. > :04:47.people are replying at that very high level. It is right to raise

:04:48. > :04:54.this issue, and with the national police chief counsel is an issue, it

:04:55. > :04:56.is not a few number of people it is one of those things in policing the

:04:57. > :05:00.tender work out who they think is going to get the job. Very often

:05:01. > :05:04.they don't apply if they think someone is going to get it. That has

:05:05. > :05:18.been a practice over the years, but we have seen a number of cases where

:05:19. > :05:31.single applicants it is not mandatory -- mandatory Bible give up

:05:32. > :05:36.way one more time. I think they will do a remarkable job, but can she

:05:37. > :05:41.explain to me why the colleagues had to do with cuts of the police force

:05:42. > :05:48.over 25% of budget compared to some where like Suri which is lost to

:05:49. > :05:58.tenant or 4%? Can I also commend the chief honourable Constable in that

:05:59. > :06:02.area and my honourable friend of the work in particular with the did with

:06:03. > :06:05.gangs with the whole office for a number of years will suck and I say

:06:06. > :06:15.to the honourable gentleman that once again faced seemed to be

:06:16. > :06:22.incapable of rep agonising recognising the settlement we've

:06:23. > :06:25.given them. There's a there is a settlement returning to the issue of

:06:26. > :06:31.collaboration with emergency services, where local cases may

:06:32. > :06:36.detect us one step further by integrating the senior management

:06:37. > :06:49.team of the police force and the fire services. The single-employer

:06:50. > :06:52.model would help the bottle up. I should stress under this reform the

:06:53. > :06:58.police and firefighters will continue to remain distinct and

:06:59. > :07:02.separate as set out in the law or be supported by increasing me with HR,

:07:03. > :07:11.ICT finance Fleet management, and other support services. In London it

:07:12. > :07:14.we tend to abolish the fire abolished fire authority in bringing

:07:15. > :07:19.in the fire brigade by the Commissioner under the direct

:07:20. > :07:23.response of the mayor. These reforms to the arrangements in London, are

:07:24. > :07:26.supported by all the key bodies including the authority itself. Mr

:07:27. > :07:32.Speaker, the vast majority of police officers and the staff discharge

:07:33. > :07:35.their duties with integrity and professionalism upholding the best

:07:36. > :07:39.traditions of policing in this country. Where the actions of the

:07:40. > :07:42.minority fall short of the high standards the public is entitled to

:07:43. > :07:49.expect, the need to be arranged in conduct in question to be properly

:07:50. > :07:53.looked into any matter resolved in a timely importunate manner. In the

:07:54. > :08:02.last Parliament, we took steps to police integrity and. That

:08:03. > :08:07.discipline committees are held in public police officers who are

:08:08. > :08:11.dismissed are now struck off on a register so they cannot rejoin

:08:12. > :08:25.another force. Where corruption is Sunni bald, officers can be charged

:08:26. > :08:30.for a previous offence. If the Honorable or judgement will still

:08:31. > :08:37.forgive me he may seek to catch my eye again there are shortcomings in

:08:38. > :08:39.the current system there is complaining to complete his police

:08:40. > :08:42.they are saying they're not satisfied with how complaints are

:08:43. > :08:47.handled. The current arrangement with the Public and police alike has

:08:48. > :08:51.been too complex, too adversarial, too dried out, and lacking

:08:52. > :08:58.sufficient independence on the police. So the amendments to the

:08:59. > :09:02.bill the discipline and the complaints to the pleas it'll make

:09:03. > :09:10.it more transparent or robust. I give way to him. If she is

:09:11. > :09:20.concerned, as I am about the length of delay to the discipline he read

:09:21. > :09:26.process around the failings of that case, what will the bill do to speed

:09:27. > :09:36.up and increase the transparency of cases like that? The honourable

:09:37. > :09:43.gentleman is right to raise issues when that case happened in the way

:09:44. > :09:47.it was handled. I understand the reasons you ask that tonight and the

:09:48. > :09:51.interaction between ICT these are challenges that I do think we need

:09:52. > :10:02.to consider very carefully to make sure that the proper. It appears to

:10:03. > :10:08.be dragged out for a significant amount of time that I genuinely

:10:09. > :10:11.issues sometimes in request and I used the investigation would have to

:10:12. > :10:17.be properly dealt with by now everyone was concerned on that case

:10:18. > :10:24.that he is referred to. He is right to raise that concern in this house.

:10:25. > :10:30.In part two of the bill, we are building on reforms in relation to

:10:31. > :10:36.police complaints and the systems, much we can strip away much of the

:10:37. > :10:40.system's theocracy, remove the system for handling complaints, by

:10:41. > :10:45.replacing five avenues of appeal with a single review of the

:10:46. > :10:51.complaint the police will be given a new duty to work with a

:10:52. > :10:55.proportionate manner while also having greater flexibility having a

:10:56. > :10:59.duty but also injecting greater independence into the system by

:11:00. > :11:07.strengthening Pete cc in the appellate body helping with chief

:11:08. > :11:11.constables. It will also be open to Pete cc the other complaints process

:11:12. > :11:17.including the recording of complaints and keeping complaints

:11:18. > :11:21.informed of progress. The bill also creates a system for super

:11:22. > :11:29.complaints. These are complaints which we brought by organizations or

:11:30. > :11:38.charity or a busybody -- advocacy body. This will help cause issues to

:11:39. > :11:43.be inspected by the College of policing as appropriate. Part two

:11:44. > :11:48.will also strengthen the protection of police whistle-blowers. While

:11:49. > :11:54.protecting their identity they will help the confidence to come forward

:11:55. > :12:01.without jeopardising their own careers. It will also enhance public

:12:02. > :12:06.confidence including that the distal interaction of officers will be

:12:07. > :12:21.continued after they've been retired. Taken together, these forms

:12:22. > :12:26.work... In part to the bill also provides provisions to increase the

:12:27. > :12:32.powers of independent IT seat seat. The body charge we did perform is

:12:33. > :12:36.organised in such a way as to quickly and professionally and

:12:37. > :12:44.effectively discharge its enhanced role. Following an independent role,

:12:45. > :12:47.on recent changes to become an IP cc, I've concluded that the existing

:12:48. > :13:02.model with having commissioners having an operational job, it is not

:13:03. > :13:13.at the time in the IP cc... Any more streamlined from a to the public,...

:13:14. > :13:16.The reformed organisation, will be headed by Director General and

:13:17. > :13:24.appointed by her Majesty the Queen the director will also have

:13:25. > :13:27.influence on other cases and the most serious and sensitive

:13:28. > :13:35.allegations including involving police. Bill be appointed by the

:13:36. > :13:45.home Secretary which will have the overall running of the organisation.

:13:46. > :13:53.We cannot continue with the police commission. I should add to the IP

:13:54. > :13:54.cc is supportive up for need of reform and I'm grateful for the

:13:55. > :14:08.input and cooperation I broadly welcome what the secretary

:14:09. > :14:12.has presented in terms of the police complaints. One of the complaints I

:14:13. > :14:16.have from constituents of the length of time in which could take in

:14:17. > :14:22.dealing with a very simple cases. In terms of constituents than rather

:14:23. > :14:28.than interact I propose the speed of over half of a different track for

:14:29. > :14:33.more complex cases than simple cases? I think it is important that

:14:34. > :14:37.all cases are dealt with in a timely a fashion as possible. What we are

:14:38. > :14:41.proposing though, is that by beating of the ability of that local

:14:42. > :14:46.complaint procedure, to deal with what you might see is simple local

:14:47. > :14:49.complaint, it may very well be that people are able to get a better

:14:50. > :14:54.response from that local complaint process rather than feeling things

:14:55. > :15:00.have to be put through to the IP PC. This will have a focus with

:15:01. > :15:03.sensitive cases honestly. Also I think the restructuring will help in

:15:04. > :15:09.terms of the smoothing the process by which cases are actually looked

:15:10. > :15:19.at, within will be the OPC in the future. The second reading is not

:15:20. > :15:23.the time to go into detail. Could you ask her advisers to talk to the

:15:24. > :15:25.IP PC about why they are saying this complaint should be referred back to

:15:26. > :15:34.the Department of special standards. This is a complaint about

:15:35. > :15:38.their behaviour in the first place. My Honorable friend raises a case

:15:39. > :15:42.which I know from the discussions we have had in the correspondence we

:15:43. > :15:46.have had, he has taken very seriously and acted on for sometime

:15:47. > :15:50.now. I recognise the issue that he has raised. Obviously there are

:15:51. > :15:54.questions around this case which relate not just to the IP cc and the

:15:55. > :15:59.police but that also relate to the CPS. I know he is taking this up

:16:00. > :16:04.with him. I will reflect on the comments and point which has made.

:16:05. > :16:08.Mr Speaker I will go to part three of the bill. For the first time will

:16:09. > :16:13.create a list of core police powers, which will only be exercised by

:16:14. > :16:18.warranted exercises. Such as Powers of arrest and search. These powers

:16:19. > :16:22.will be owners reserve conferred on police officers by member of the

:16:23. > :16:25.staff or volunteer, provided they stupid little more incapable of

:16:26. > :16:28.carrying it out and receive the appropriate training. This will

:16:29. > :16:33.ensure that police officers have applicability in freedom make use of

:16:34. > :16:38.their skills and training, whether they're warranted officers for

:16:39. > :16:42.police staff volunteers. Volunteers have much to offer policing. Over

:16:43. > :16:49.16,000 special constables regularly get up their time to help keep our

:16:50. > :16:53.communities safe. But to use those with special skills in either IT or

:16:54. > :16:57.forensic counselling who are prepared to volunteer their time but

:16:58. > :17:03.don't want to become a special constable, and it simply makes no

:17:04. > :17:06.sense that the police can lack the ability to confer on a volunteer and

:17:07. > :17:10.now to set of powers rather than to a particular role. The existing law

:17:11. > :17:13.also puts unnecessary constraints on the chief officer with the chief

:17:14. > :17:16.officer which is to maximise the operation and effectiveness of

:17:17. > :17:20.police staff. This will remove these barriers and strengthen the role of

:17:21. > :17:24.the officers. This confers on chief officers the ability to designate

:17:25. > :17:27.police staff and volunteers with those policing powers appropriate to

:17:28. > :17:30.their role. I am committed to free assuring that the police have need

:17:31. > :17:35.to protect the public and to prevent to protect an event investigate

:17:36. > :17:39.chemical defenses. But we should continue to keep the coercive powers

:17:40. > :17:42.of the state under regular review, to ensure the rights of the

:17:43. > :17:46.individual are properly balanced against the need to keep our

:17:47. > :17:52.communities safe. Into instances, what may I will make a little more

:17:53. > :17:54.progress on this issue. Into instances precharge bail and

:17:55. > :17:58.undergoing health act. We need to take action to make sure we get that

:17:59. > :18:01.balance right. Part four of the bill therefore contains a number of

:18:02. > :18:05.important reforms to police powers. In the case of precharge bill, it is

:18:06. > :18:11.apparent the significant number of individuals that sent -- spent an

:18:12. > :18:15.alarm was up time on bail only to end up not being charged or charged

:18:16. > :18:19.found not guilty. Of course police and prosecution need time to

:18:20. > :18:23.assemble and test the evidence particularly in complex cases before

:18:24. > :18:26.coming to a decision. We need to recognise the stress cause of people

:18:27. > :18:30.are under investigation for long periods and the disruption to their

:18:31. > :18:38.lives when they are subject to onerous bail conditions. I will give

:18:39. > :18:43.what element Clause 53 for 17-year-olds in the recognition of

:18:44. > :18:47.children in detention. There's also a strong argument for hazard

:18:48. > :18:53.assessments for adults who have been content convicted of sexual assaults

:18:54. > :18:56.against 16 and 17-year-olds. They are actually children in law. Would

:18:57. > :19:04.you give some consideration to this proposal? The Honorable Lady raises

:19:05. > :19:07.an interesting point. It is possible the age of the individual can be

:19:08. > :19:11.used as an aggravating factor in relation to dealing with the

:19:12. > :19:15.offence. Therefore it can be taken into account or talking about

:19:16. > :19:23.someone 16 or 17. I'll make a few more comments. Before I get to the

:19:24. > :19:27.issue of mental health... On relation to the bill proposals, to

:19:28. > :19:33.address the legitimate concerns about the current arrangement, the

:19:34. > :19:37.bill uses or introduces a number of safeguards. First the sunset we

:19:38. > :19:40.released without bail conditions attached. Second when it is

:19:41. > :19:45.necessary to release on bail this will commence on 28 days. Third this

:19:46. > :19:50.initial period needs to be extended, it can only be extended up to three

:19:51. > :19:54.months with the authority of the supreme tendon. For a maximum of

:19:55. > :19:57.three months and must be authorised by magistrate Court. The bill

:19:58. > :20:02.provides special procedures for complex cases, such as those

:20:03. > :20:06.investigated by the Serious Fraud Office. The requirements for long

:20:07. > :20:11.periods of precharge Bale and any conditions attached to that they'll

:20:12. > :20:15.are subject to judicial approval. This is clearly establishing primary

:20:16. > :20:17.legislation. Mr Speaker the government is committed to ensuring

:20:18. > :20:22.better outcomes for people with mental health problems. Those who

:20:23. > :20:26.present a danger to themselves or others need rapid support and care

:20:27. > :20:31.for mental health professionals. They don't need locking up in a cell

:20:32. > :20:34.for up to 70 to ours. Over the last couple of years, significant strides

:20:35. > :20:41.have been made in reducing the instances where police cells are use

:20:42. > :20:45.for safety. But we must do more. The mental health that will ensure that

:20:46. > :20:50.police cells will never be used as a place of safety for children and

:20:51. > :20:57.those under 18. There will only be used in extreme circumstances in the

:20:58. > :21:05.case of adults. I will give way. I command my friend for all the right

:21:06. > :21:11.work she has done over the years. Can we as to rethink mental illness

:21:12. > :21:16.and discuss some of the continuing concerns around section 135 and 136?

:21:17. > :21:21.The Home Secretary has made some fantastic strides in bringing forth

:21:22. > :21:28.this proposed legislation today. Model friend who has a fine record

:21:29. > :21:32.of campaigning on these issues is right to have raised this and refer

:21:33. > :21:36.to this. The groups that he is mentioned, the organizations he

:21:37. > :21:42.mentioned to meet with ministers on a regular basis on crisis care. I'm

:21:43. > :21:46.also happy to look at the issue of the concerns that they are raising.

:21:47. > :21:51.I hope that what we have here in the bill will give some way to dealing

:21:52. > :21:56.with some of the continuing concerns that have been made. Notwithstanding

:21:57. > :22:00.the work that we have done over the last few years in improving the

:22:01. > :22:04.response to people with mental health, at a point of mental health

:22:05. > :22:11.crisis and improving that response by the police. I give way. And I

:22:12. > :22:18.welcome some of the changes she's outlining. But one area I think it's

:22:19. > :22:22.an issue if the ID of advocacy under section 135 and 136. For the Mental

:22:23. > :22:27.Health Act. Those individuals detained are not allowed to have

:22:28. > :22:32.advocates. I think this would strengthen some of the reform she's

:22:33. > :22:34.putting in this bill. The honourable gentleman has made an interesting

:22:35. > :22:39.point. Obviously we were trying to do in the bill and in the work we

:22:40. > :22:42.have done with the triage pilots for example, and the provision of extra

:22:43. > :22:48.mental health provisions, and various parts of the country, is to

:22:49. > :22:52.reduce the need for advocacy by reducing the amount of time that

:22:53. > :22:56.people can spend in a police cell. Indeed the bill also reduces the

:22:57. > :23:05.maximum period of detention, for the purposes of mental health from 70 to

:23:06. > :23:09.hours to 24 hours and a possibility of extension to 36 hours if the

:23:10. > :23:15.medical front just there decides it is clinically necessary. In parallel

:23:16. > :23:19.we are making up to ?15 million available in the coming year to

:23:20. > :23:28.improve the conditions of health safety. Element thank you for giving

:23:29. > :23:33.way. Would you join me in commending the police who have made great

:23:34. > :23:39.strides in the use of self 136 over the past year? Element would she

:23:40. > :23:44.join me with also saying the police forces me to collect data on how

:23:45. > :23:48.long people aren't being detained with in police vans is what we don't

:23:49. > :23:55.want to see substitution of police cells for police vans. She has

:23:56. > :23:59.raised an important point. When you are legislating and areas you have

:24:00. > :24:03.to consider -- consider what the intended consequences might be. Of

:24:04. > :24:08.course the whole point of the street triage pilots taking place is the

:24:09. > :24:12.availability of advice from mental health care professionals to the

:24:13. > :24:16.police in the circumstances, is to ensure that somebody could be taken

:24:17. > :24:20.to his place of safety, not a place of safety that is a police cell, and

:24:21. > :24:24.not deciding that a ban is an appropriate place to hold people.

:24:25. > :24:27.She's certainly right to do something that we should look at to

:24:28. > :24:35.make sure that we are not inadvertently creating another

:24:36. > :24:39.problem. Despite what I said earlier I think I do need to make some more

:24:40. > :24:54.progress. LAUGHTER If I may come onto another subject

:24:55. > :24:59.which is the question of firearms. Mr Speaker this coming Sunday will

:25:00. > :25:04.mark 20 years since the appalling murder of 16 children and teach

:25:05. > :25:08.Adele Nehring primary school. I'm sure the whole house was to join me

:25:09. > :25:12.in sending our deepest sympathy to those who lost loved ones and to the

:25:13. > :25:15.survivors of that terrible day. We also reminded the importance of

:25:16. > :25:19.firearms legislation to prevent such events from happening again. In this

:25:20. > :25:22.country we have some of the toughest controls on firearms in the world.

:25:23. > :25:27.It is no coincidence of the number of homicides and other crimes

:25:28. > :25:33.involving firearms are relatively low. We must remain vigilant. There

:25:34. > :25:37.are loopholes that can be exploited and we must act to plug the gaps.

:25:38. > :25:41.The revisions in part six of the bill are directed toward that end.

:25:42. > :25:47.After extensive consultation, the law has made recommendations to

:25:48. > :25:52.tighten the Firearms Act. It is simply no longer sustainable. There

:25:53. > :26:00.is uncertainty as to what constitutes an antique firearm. We

:26:01. > :26:06.need to clarify what is clear that a firearm is subject to the Firearms

:26:07. > :26:10.Act. The exercise of the licensing functions under the Firearms Act

:26:11. > :26:15.also needs to be looked at. We must have this consistently applied at

:26:16. > :26:19.all appropriate checks taken when considering someone's ability to

:26:20. > :26:26.hold a firearm. Finally Mr Speaker, part eight of the bill, stringency

:26:27. > :26:29.of Portsmouth financial. The effective implementation and

:26:30. > :26:32.enforcement of financial sections is important and vital to their

:26:33. > :26:36.success. This increases the maximum sentence of up to to seven years

:26:37. > :26:40.imprisonment, which can be improved following a criminal conviction or

:26:41. > :26:44.breach of faith. This extends the availability of deferred prosecution

:26:45. > :26:57.agreements and serious crime prevention orders.

:26:58. > :27:02.Was to finish. This part also introduces a mechanism to ensure

:27:03. > :27:09.that UN mandated sections to be limited without delay. Before new

:27:10. > :27:11.stations regimes come into force and help the UK complied with its

:27:12. > :27:13.international obligations. Mr Speaker taken together this bill

:27:14. > :27:18.will continue to government Public recommended to perform public

:27:19. > :27:21.services. I have to say to the right honourable gentleman that I just had

:27:22. > :27:28.to get it to his honourable friend that would not give way because as

:27:29. > :27:33.he is the Shadow Home Secretary. She began her speech by saying that

:27:34. > :27:36.crime has fallen as they get is important that we have clarity on

:27:37. > :27:42.this point. The driver attention in the exchange last week was yes

:27:43. > :27:46.please let the crime was added to the statistics that crime was like.

:27:47. > :27:51.The NAS suggested that would be the case we have to as except that. Was

:27:52. > :27:57.he right to say that and will crime go up with these figures are added?

:27:58. > :28:00.The statement I made about crime following is based on the

:28:01. > :28:05.independent crime survey of England and Wales. That shows clearly that

:28:06. > :28:10.crime has fallen since 2010 more than a quarter. What we are doing is

:28:11. > :28:15.recognising that there are certain types of crime that have not been

:28:16. > :28:20.fully recorded in the past. It is not that suddenly started -- cyber

:28:21. > :28:25.crime started in May 2000 and 15. Cyber crime was undertaken, fraud

:28:26. > :28:28.was undertaken under the last Labour government and under subsequent

:28:29. > :28:31.governments. What are now doing is recording this figures in ensuring

:28:32. > :28:36.the figures are available to the public. I welcome the fact that we

:28:37. > :28:42.are being open with people about different sorts of crime that had

:28:43. > :28:51.been committed but were hidden under the last Labour government. Mr

:28:52. > :28:58.Speaker, LAUGHTER I'm literally on my last sentence. This bill would

:28:59. > :29:02.continue the government public commitment to reform public service

:29:03. > :29:08.is not for its own sake but to deliver more cell phone, or police

:29:09. > :29:14.forces that continue to cut crime and keep our communities safe. Hear,

:29:15. > :29:21.hear!. Should the bill now be read a second time? Thank you Mr Speaker.

:29:22. > :29:26.We on the side of the house what do most of the measures. We have led

:29:27. > :29:35.calls for some of them over many years. In the last parliament I am

:29:36. > :29:41.proud to say that the shadow health team raise public awareness for the

:29:42. > :29:44.practice of people in mental health crisis being held in police cells.

:29:45. > :29:50.We congratulate the Home Secretary for acting out its and she will have

:29:51. > :29:53.our full support in doing so. She will also have our support on

:29:54. > :29:59.measures of the bill on firearms as she has just explained, alcohol

:30:00. > :30:02.licensing, and on child sexual application. I would urge them to

:30:03. > :30:05.remove my Honorable friend said last week about the action published a

:30:06. > :30:12.year ago where she published that there has not been progress. I would

:30:13. > :30:17.encourage the government to take action quickly. In other areas such

:30:18. > :30:22.as reform of police complaints, and accountability and police bail we

:30:23. > :30:27.have one call to change and encouragingly there's now consensus

:30:28. > :30:31.for it. We do not think the government has gone far enough and

:30:32. > :30:36.as I will come on to explain the be pressing for changes in the is areas

:30:37. > :30:43.to strengthen the bill. Let me be clear I will give way. I think the

:30:44. > :30:49.honourable gentleman and on the theme of changes given that Labour's

:30:50. > :30:53.First Minister alliance with them calling for pleasing to be divulged

:30:54. > :31:01.with the honourable gentleman said his party will be tabling pleasing

:31:02. > :31:07.to Wales. As interesting proposal but it is the view of the Labour

:31:08. > :31:10.Party in Wales but is not the party at the UK level. We will be giving

:31:11. > :31:17.it serious consideration. Mr Speaker let me be clear, well, as many of

:31:18. > :31:23.the measures of this bill are and fall short of providing what our

:31:24. > :31:29.emergency services need. It does not add up to a convincing vision from

:31:30. > :31:33.the reform of the services or the threat we face in the country. Right

:31:34. > :31:38.now our police and Fire Services are halfway through a decade of real

:31:39. > :31:44.terms cuts. The Home Secretary began claiming her record as a record of

:31:45. > :31:48.reform. The reform we are seeing is in fact the demised of a successful

:31:49. > :31:54.neighbourhood policing model that she inherited from the previous

:31:55. > :32:05.government. She has presided over worryingly low morale across police,

:32:06. > :32:13.fire, and for the health's part that low morale needs to be addressed. No

:32:14. > :32:19.one is going to be impressed by the complacent and answers the Home

:32:20. > :32:26.Secretary gave on these points. Is she aware that the West Midlands has

:32:27. > :32:33.lost 18% of the total compared to Thames Valley which is lost just 2%.

:32:34. > :32:39.Is she aware of the West Midlands is going to lose more. My honourable

:32:40. > :32:46.friend has made the point that I was going to make. Whatever they claim

:32:47. > :32:50.on the benches opposite 36 out of the 43 police forces are facing cash

:32:51. > :32:58.cuts in this year. All of them are facing real terms cuts. The West

:32:59. > :33:06.Midlands has faced ?10 million in real terms. My own police force ?8

:33:07. > :33:10.million. He needs to consider cuts to Fire Services as well. West

:33:11. > :33:20.Midlands over the decade will see a cut of 45% in its budget. And will

:33:21. > :33:27.effectively have. They do not know that it is the case that Fire

:33:28. > :33:31.Services are being cut in half. It begs the question, can they be sure

:33:32. > :33:36.that their police and fire cuts are not exposing our big cities to

:33:37. > :33:41.unacceptable levels of risk? What assessment has been made of their

:33:42. > :33:45.capability to deal with a major incident or a Paris style attack?

:33:46. > :33:51.Experts in the Fire and Rescue Service would argue that their cuts

:33:52. > :33:55.have already gone too far. The question that really begs is why

:33:56. > :34:03.does crime continue to come down, why does he believe that is the

:34:04. > :34:07.case? We have just had an exchange with the Home Secretary acknowledged

:34:08. > :34:13.that on my crime is about to be added to the crime figures. What he

:34:14. > :34:17.may know from his own constituency is a crime has been changing in

:34:18. > :34:21.recent years. We've seen reductions in traditional volume crime,

:34:22. > :34:27.burglary and car crime and crime has moved online. Does the Minister

:34:28. > :34:31.understand and understand the crime has fallen. That is not representing

:34:32. > :34:34.the real pitcher. The real picture will look very very different when

:34:35. > :34:39.new figures are published in a couple of months' time. Could the

:34:40. > :34:43.right honourable gentleman tell us what he was a minister in the Home

:34:44. > :34:46.Office what did he not advocate and ensure that figures for fraud and

:34:47. > :34:55.cyber crime were added to the crime figures? It was recommended by the

:34:56. > :34:59.independent office of statistics so she might want to take credit for

:35:00. > :35:06.everything but am afraid she cannot. And was independently recommended as

:35:07. > :35:10.the last Labour government accepted independent recommendations of

:35:11. > :35:13.statisticians so she has to. The picture will look very very

:35:14. > :35:17.different and I would caution her against her complacent a statement

:35:18. > :35:20.again today that crime has fallen. Crime has changed in the fact that

:35:21. > :35:29.figures will soon show a crime has in fact doubled. I'm grateful to the

:35:30. > :35:32.right honourable gentleman. We all accept that crime is changing. Does

:35:33. > :35:38.he also accept the crime-fighting should also change. That one decent

:35:39. > :35:42.talented computer programmer could achieve more against Trevor -- cyber

:35:43. > :35:53.crime that 8000 uniformed police officers? Cyber crime, on my crime

:35:54. > :35:58.represents the biggest challenges that we face. They will probably be

:35:59. > :36:04.a grub but across the floor and amongst the 43 police forces they do

:36:05. > :36:10.not yet have the capability to investigate cyber crime. That is an

:36:11. > :36:15.issue for everybody. How they going to develop that capability as their

:36:16. > :36:20.facing year on year of real terms cuts? I do not think that is

:36:21. > :36:26.sustainable. He has got think as well about public safety and cuts.

:36:27. > :36:30.We are seeing cuts to Fire Services in London, we are seeing thousands

:36:31. > :36:37.of firefighters pumps and stations cut all over the country. Thousands

:36:38. > :36:43.more are set to go following local government settlement that is

:36:44. > :36:54.afflicted the biggest cuts on urban areas. The embarrassing truth for

:36:55. > :36:57.ministers is this, if their northern powerhouse catches fire there will

:36:58. > :37:09.be no one there to put it out. I give way. As the former chairman of

:37:10. > :37:14.the London fire authority with the conceit that simultaneously to the

:37:15. > :37:16.reductions that he spoke of the London fire brigade had the best

:37:17. > :37:26.performance year in its recent history? Again I would urge members

:37:27. > :37:30.opposite not to be so complacent. He may have seen that there was a fire

:37:31. > :37:34.in north London around Houston in the last couple of weeks with the

:37:35. > :37:40.London fire brigade missed their response target and there was a

:37:41. > :37:46.vitality. -- fatality. If you look across the country we will see that

:37:47. > :37:50.Fire Services are missing their recommended response times up and

:37:51. > :37:56.down the country. If he believes that the cuts to blended's fire

:37:57. > :38:00.brigade and rescue services around the country could carry on in the

:38:01. > :38:06.way his party proposes that I think he is putting public safety at

:38:07. > :38:09.serious risk. The government public answer the funding challenges is

:38:10. > :38:17.greater collaboration in greater clues of volunteers. Neither are

:38:18. > :38:20.wrong in principle but is how they are used. There are risks inherent

:38:21. > :38:24.in both policies is done in the wrong way. They do not add up to a

:38:25. > :38:32.convincing solution for the future of emergency services. As the prime

:38:33. > :38:38.policing crime commissioner for Northumbria said today this bill

:38:39. > :38:49.looks like a plan for policing on the cheap. He talked about a leaking

:38:50. > :38:53.bucket, we've also had the tremendous floods of the last few

:38:54. > :38:56.months in this country where Fire Services and police services have

:38:57. > :39:00.been stretched to the limit. What happens if we get to a situation

:39:01. > :39:08.where we have a much more widespread flooding problem in the future we

:39:09. > :39:11.will not have the resources will be? From my own Fire Services in the

:39:12. > :39:19.north, they said they did not have enough resources. Be drawn up to

:39:20. > :39:25.Cumbria when the weather hit but they did not have enough resources

:39:26. > :39:32.later. Read a Christmas about a hastily concocted plan to cut the

:39:33. > :39:36.incident response unit. It was there to deal the dirty bomb. These cuts

:39:37. > :39:42.are going too far. The question they got to answer was quite a simple

:39:43. > :39:46.one. Can you give us a guarantee that there are enough resources in

:39:47. > :39:50.place for fire and police that of a major incident or a Paris style

:39:51. > :39:53.attack would happen in our major cities that public safety would not

:39:54. > :40:00.be compromised? I don't think they have answered that question. Until

:40:01. > :40:03.they do I will keep asking it. This bill looks like a plan for policing

:40:04. > :40:09.on the cheap. I will come back to part one of the bill later. And me

:40:10. > :40:13.go the measures we support. Part two deals with police accountability,

:40:14. > :40:16.the hazard progress in this area but I think you'll be accepted on all

:40:17. > :40:24.sides that there is much further to go. Historical cases stand as

:40:25. > :40:32.testimony to the uphill struggle that ordinary people straight in

:40:33. > :40:35.holding the police to account. Even when there is evidence of

:40:36. > :40:42.wrongdoing. There is no sign that public confidence has improved even

:40:43. > :40:49.when there are people that choose not to pursue the complaint. It is

:40:50. > :40:53.not fair to police officers either. Professional status questions are

:40:54. > :40:57.encouraged to adopt the heavy-handed approach. We agree with the

:40:58. > :41:01.government of the system for having complaints is in need of serious

:41:02. > :41:05.reform. We welcome clarification that all complaints should be

:41:06. > :41:10.recorded and ending the confusion that comes up leaving that decision

:41:11. > :41:13.up to police officers. I gave a cautious welcome to the new role for

:41:14. > :41:17.policing crime commissioners and the new area. I have to say that it is

:41:18. > :41:30.still early days for PC sees. I think many are yet to show that they

:41:31. > :41:35.can hold Apple is forced to account. I think that is an open question and

:41:36. > :41:45.the government should not put too much trust that I will materialise.

:41:46. > :41:51.I'm sure he will share the welcome that is going to be able to carry on

:41:52. > :41:55.misconduct charges for officers to have retired. Dusty agree with me

:41:56. > :41:58.that it seems strange that the only penalty that seemed to be proposed

:41:59. > :42:03.if they're found guilty of misconduct is to say to this retired

:42:04. > :42:06.officers, you cannot come back and work in the police force. That is no

:42:07. > :42:14.kind of penalty at all there already retired. I agree. I would

:42:15. > :42:19.demonstrate any moment why I think the point he has just made entirely

:42:20. > :42:25.valid. We support measures in this bill to refocus the IP cc, to rename

:42:26. > :42:30.its event. To strengthen its independence to allow it to initiate

:42:31. > :42:33.its own investigations to carry them out and likely than relying on

:42:34. > :42:39.police forces. We also protect whistle-blowers. And the most

:42:40. > :42:44.powerful proposal in the bill is the power to propose super complaints.

:42:45. > :42:55.Bringing together groups are campaigning still for justice. There

:42:56. > :43:00.are common threads between them all. It is this, currently the way the

:43:01. > :43:03.system works forces them all to plough their own for oh individually

:43:04. > :43:08.and does not allow them to join forces. The super complaint proposal

:43:09. > :43:12.could rebalance the system in their favour. That is what I will commit

:43:13. > :43:16.so strongly. I know the Home Secretary is still to publish the

:43:17. > :43:19.details of how it will work but I will off-load to work with her on

:43:20. > :43:24.this and would encourage her to allow an number of small campaign

:43:25. > :43:28.groups to bring a complaint to gather. For instance, if the Stephen

:43:29. > :43:36.Lawrence campaign had been able to join forces with the Daniel Morgan

:43:37. > :43:38.campaign or at the other campaigns would be able to join forces that

:43:39. > :43:47.history could have been very different. Our seminar we heard

:43:48. > :43:51.things that they all have in common and it is the unacceptable levels of

:43:52. > :43:59.collusion that the police have with the press. If this government fails

:44:00. > :44:05.to honour the complaints that I would hope the roots of the super

:44:06. > :44:13.complaint would at least open up another avenue to campaigners. Can I

:44:14. > :44:18.just taken back to something that he said a few seconds ago, it is still

:44:19. > :44:22.early days for policing crime commissioners. Yet less than a year

:44:23. > :44:27.ago his party was arguing that they would face abolition of the Labour

:44:28. > :44:35.government. We would go to the polls to elect a new PCC under the

:44:36. > :44:44.country. To the exist or abolished under a label government? With the

:44:45. > :44:48.election things have changed, we do not oppose police and crime

:44:49. > :44:51.commissioners. I prepared to give them a chance. I'm someone who

:44:52. > :44:59.believes in stronger accountability for the police. I think it is hard

:45:00. > :45:03.for one individual, and elected individual, to hold the weights and

:45:04. > :45:07.he might have an entire police force to account. Particularly when the

:45:08. > :45:11.individual is also dealing with operational matters. I do get is the

:45:12. > :45:17.stretch and I do not think the opposite PCC has shown itself able

:45:18. > :45:22.to do that. Personally I would like to build a new model of the PCC and

:45:23. > :45:25.broaden it out perhaps more to a London style model. Where there is a

:45:26. > :45:42.broader range of people holding to place holds to a accountability.

:45:43. > :45:47.Firstly? Never adding a layer of things it wasn't a serious complaint

:45:48. > :45:57.the IP cc is there to deal with things independently. Of course the

:45:58. > :46:01.PCC is working and of course that has an impact of the priorities of

:46:02. > :46:06.the police. But I'm not setting my face against that I do say to the

:46:07. > :46:10.government the just out throwing fire and with police and crime

:46:11. > :46:15.commissioners has not been adequately thought through. One of

:46:16. > :46:20.the most welcome proposals to the bill is the closing of the loophole

:46:21. > :46:24.were officers can escape disciplinary proceedings by residing

:46:25. > :46:27.or retiring. Clause 22 simulates the disciplinary proceedings may be

:46:28. > :46:33.initiated up to 12 months after somebody has left the force. Can

:46:34. > :46:36.city Home Secretary that while I was the intention this 12 month period

:46:37. > :46:43.could be unduly restricted as my Honorable friend has said. It may

:46:44. > :46:47.take many more years for campaigners to uncover wrongdoing. I know that

:46:48. > :46:50.many of the Hillsboro families feel very strongly indeed about this and

:46:51. > :46:57.get this measure would not have helped them. Why is there any time

:46:58. > :47:07.limit at all? Wrongdoing whatever it occurred needs to be corrected. Will

:47:08. > :47:10.they be applied including reductions to pension and entitlement in the

:47:11. > :47:16.most serious of cases. As the campaigners want to see. Also the

:47:17. > :47:21.reform of police bail. The current system has been criticised from both

:47:22. > :47:26.sides. That is unfairly leaving people languishing for long periods

:47:27. > :47:31.but also bad for people who pose more of a risk for the public it is

:47:32. > :47:38.toothless. What is needed is a more targeted approach that is not face

:47:39. > :47:43.research is on the liberty of people for low risk or for whose guilt is

:47:44. > :47:48.far from proven. In cases of serious crime or terrorism. I have to say on

:47:49. > :47:53.this the bill only does have a job. It relaxes police bail requirements

:47:54. > :47:56.for a majority of people but it fails to bring in those tougher

:47:57. > :48:05.conditions for those opposed a greater risk. It has been suggested

:48:06. > :48:10.that because the threshold for extension is so low as of the

:48:11. > :48:14.requires an officer to act diligently that the proposals may

:48:15. > :48:17.make little difference to practice at hope that is not the case. The

:48:18. > :48:25.big problem is the government is failed to act on suffering up the

:48:26. > :48:31.police. The case of a man who started while on police bail and

:48:32. > :48:36.went to Syria is a prime example of an unacceptable loophole in the

:48:37. > :48:42.current system. We will find it truly shocking that terrorist

:48:43. > :48:45.subsets -- suspects can walk out of the country without difficulty. I

:48:46. > :48:51.found it astounding that the government has not moved to close

:48:52. > :49:00.this loophole in this bill. He is right to raise this very important

:49:01. > :49:05.point in this case one of the issues also is the ability of different

:49:06. > :49:10.agencies to communicate immediately when passwords are to be

:49:11. > :49:16.surrendered. Does he not agree that as well as changing the law when you

:49:17. > :49:21.change the practice that the police inform others and this is all done

:49:22. > :49:29.it be only when there is a terror suspect. That is what you would

:49:30. > :49:34.expect. People are immediately placed on watch list when they are

:49:35. > :49:38.placed on police bail. That did not happen in this case. The Prime

:49:39. > :49:41.Minister told the Liaison Committee in the January that he would look

:49:42. > :49:45.carefully at police bail powers. This bill does not deliver them or

:49:46. > :49:49.close the loophole. Please no commissions are not enforce and this

:49:50. > :49:55.bill is a major missed opportunity and we will rise the government hard

:49:56. > :50:01.in committee to correct it. Would he do targeted police bill regime that

:50:02. > :50:05.was for sanctions in relation to more serious offensive. The

:50:06. > :50:11.confiscation of passports and travel documents and terrorism related

:50:12. > :50:15.cases. Proposals on mental health are timely and much needed. Given

:50:16. > :50:19.the levels of stress and security in 21st century living, mental health

:50:20. > :50:22.be one of if not the greatest house challenge of the century. It is

:50:23. > :50:26.essential that the police and criminal justice system develop

:50:27. > :50:32.basic standards for dealing with it. We will ban the risk for police

:50:33. > :50:39.cells of children in crisis and adults. Our concern is that with the

:50:40. > :50:43.measures themselves but whether they could be delivered in practice. As

:50:44. > :50:47.Shadow Health Secretary I'd revealed in the last Parliament how the

:50:48. > :50:52.government had not honoured its commitment to parity between

:50:53. > :50:56.physical and mental health and cut mental health parts of the NHS.

:50:57. > :51:04.Middle health services are in crisis. Only last week, a counsellor

:51:05. > :51:08.in my constituency contacted me to say that he'd work with

:51:09. > :51:12.professionals for two days to help find a cure for bad for a highly

:51:13. > :51:17.affordable young man who is close to suicide. That was last week, no beds

:51:18. > :51:23.available anywhere in the country for head. The Royal College of

:51:24. > :51:29.psychiatrists as pointed out that banning the use of cells does not

:51:30. > :51:34.solve the problem of why those cells are used in the first place.

:51:35. > :51:36.Reducing the time and for assessment does not itself guarantee that there

:51:37. > :51:42.will be enough trained professionals to deliver the new standard in the

:51:43. > :51:49.cognition of these changes can put professionals in a difficult

:51:50. > :51:55.position. It cannot be combined into a bed had been identified for

:51:56. > :52:01.someone. They could put them in a bad position of having to break the

:52:02. > :52:05.law or not breaking the law and releasing someone who should in fact

:52:06. > :52:09.be detained. It is therefore essential that alongside the as

:52:10. > :52:13.built the Home Secretary and Health Secretary issued new instructions to

:52:14. > :52:17.health service commissioners to open sufficient beds and train

:52:18. > :52:24.professionals to deliver these welcome new commitments. Does he

:52:25. > :52:31.agree with me to one of the emissions is that this information

:52:32. > :52:37.is not kept nationally. We need that information at the moment. Without

:52:38. > :52:47.that whether or not is going to meet these targets is never going to be

:52:48. > :52:49.determined. That is the problem. Professionals find a desperate

:52:50. > :52:56.position with their searching for a bad because of a lack of

:52:57. > :53:02.information. The risk is that these new requirements come into law

:53:03. > :53:07.without a plan behind them in the professionals that are needed it

:53:08. > :53:11.could have perverse consequences in terms of putting professionals in a

:53:12. > :53:14.very difficult position. Habit is not the case made with stately Home

:53:15. > :53:19.Secretary much more than than ?15 million is needed if we are to

:53:20. > :53:26.create adequate bed capacity to deal with this issue. Let me go finally

:53:27. > :53:30.to the proposal that gives us the greatest concern. First the proposal

:53:31. > :53:36.for a expansion a major volunteers. They were right to praise the role

:53:37. > :53:43.of specials that we would have -- argue... As we have revealed police

:53:44. > :53:47.forces in England are facing a decade of real terms cuts. We have

:53:48. > :53:50.lost 18,000 offices the last Parliament and many more are set to

:53:51. > :53:54.go in this. That is the context in which the house must consider the

:53:55. > :53:58.proposal in this bill to extend the use of volunteers. I do not think

:53:59. > :54:04.this house should endorse the principle that volunteers could

:54:05. > :54:12.safely back fill the cuts, the gaps left by cuts to policing. He gives

:54:13. > :54:15.police volunteers the ability to you CS gas and powder spray. The

:54:16. > :54:21.fortunes should only be restricted to full-time officers. We are not

:54:22. > :54:26.opposed to the greater use of volunteers, and should be on top of

:54:27. > :54:36.a protected court of police officers data value rather than replace. I

:54:37. > :54:40.give way. I just wanted to understand what you applied the same

:54:41. > :54:46.rules to volunteer were obviously operate with the same equipment

:54:47. > :54:52.within the Fire Services as to volunteer police officers. All

:54:53. > :54:58.members opposite is increasing reliance on volunteers is no answer

:54:59. > :55:03.to backfill cuts to corporate vision. Volunteers can add value.

:55:04. > :55:07.They can extend the reach of emergency services, there no

:55:08. > :55:14.substitute for cuts to front-line services. That potentially leave the

:55:15. > :55:18.public at risk. He might be happy with a part-time police force or a

:55:19. > :55:22.part-time Fire Service but I can tell him that most of my

:55:23. > :55:26.constituents would argue that is not acceptable and we need enough

:55:27. > :55:33.resources. For resources on the front right.

:55:34. > :55:38.-- mental will you take this opportunity to correct with that I

:55:39. > :55:44.can only assume is an inadvertent slur on the many thousands of people

:55:45. > :55:46.in the part-time police force. The part-time Fire Service, the

:55:47. > :55:53.part-time Armed Forces, who put their lives at risk and do so

:55:54. > :55:57.because they are driven by sense of public duty. Will you take this

:55:58. > :56:02.opportunity to remove the slur on the professionalism of all

:56:03. > :56:07.individuals? He clearly was not listening Mr Speaker. I praised the

:56:08. > :56:10.role of police specials and I did say there was a role for

:56:11. > :56:15.volunteerism. I happen to believe that it is not fair to those

:56:16. > :56:18.volunteers to put them into a position or dangerous position

:56:19. > :56:22.without the power, without the training, without the resources to

:56:23. > :56:28.do the job. But if he thinks that emergency services run increasingly

:56:29. > :56:32.by volunteers is the way he wants to go, I would say I have in serious

:56:33. > :56:38.disagreement with that on the side of the House. The most boring part

:56:39. > :56:42.of this bill, Mr Deputy Speaker is the implications it holds to the

:56:43. > :56:47.future of Fire And Rescue Services. Buy services have already faced

:56:48. > :56:52.severe cuts over the last five years. They face another five years

:56:53. > :56:56.of deep cuts at the front line services. Our worry is that this

:56:57. > :57:03.still could make them even more vulnerable. And could even see the

:57:04. > :57:07.Fire and Rescue Service disappearing altogether as a separate service.

:57:08. > :57:10.There is a real concern that the proposals to put fire under the

:57:11. > :57:15.control of the police and crime commissioners has simply not been

:57:16. > :57:19.thought through. It is a, I will give way. I'll make this point. This

:57:20. > :57:24.is a major change as I'm sure the Home Secretary would agree. I would

:57:25. > :57:28.ask her to answer the point. Where is the Green paper? Or the white

:57:29. > :57:32.paper examining the pros and cons to such a major change to the

:57:33. > :57:40.government of our emergency services? While setting aside the

:57:41. > :57:44.fact that we have to we have consulted with the fire and police.

:57:45. > :57:47.He says that he does not think the fire police services should come

:57:48. > :57:52.together. Perhaps he could then explain why his honourable friend,

:57:53. > :57:56.the member earnings and said last October I think the police and Fire

:57:57. > :58:02.Services logically fit within the context of a combined authority.

:58:03. > :58:06.Hear, hear! Does a lot of things there that the Home Secretary, I'm

:58:07. > :58:11.afraid needs to be correct at all. The first is that yes she did

:58:12. > :58:14.consult. She consulted purely on the process by which the PCC would take

:58:15. > :58:20.ever fire. She did not install on the principle of whether they

:58:21. > :58:25.should. I stand entirely by the comments of my right honourable

:58:26. > :58:27.friend. A combined authority is not a Police and Crime Commissioner. It

:58:28. > :58:32.is a very different thing altogether. It keeps fire within

:58:33. > :58:39.local government, which is where it has been for some time. And there is

:58:40. > :58:45.another reason why independence is important. She's proposing a single

:58:46. > :58:48.employer model. Which I could see the end of a separate Fire Service.

:58:49. > :58:54.There are good reasons why they have traditionally be separated. In Sun

:58:55. > :58:57.City areas where there has been a history to do with the police, in

:58:58. > :59:01.defence of the Fire Service is important. It means they can

:59:02. > :59:07.continue to operate even if there are difficulties or a standoff with

:59:08. > :59:10.the police. Now the review consider the potential benefits of

:59:11. > :59:14.collaboration. We support collaboration. It also says it could

:59:15. > :59:17.be an expanded role for PCC. But the government must pilot this

:59:18. > :59:25.carefully, given the complexity from the government point of view. It

:59:26. > :59:30.also goes much further. The biggest worry of all is that it takes away

:59:31. > :59:35.any safer local people. It effectively allows the PCC to make a

:59:36. > :59:39.case to the Home Secretary, and band gives full power to the Home

:59:40. > :59:43.Secretary to decide. Cutting out completely the role of local elected

:59:44. > :59:47.representatives. Not to say the public. What on earth happened to

:59:48. > :59:54.the governments commitment to devolution. ? . Despite Metro

:59:55. > :59:56.mayors, it looks like these expanded police and crime commissioners will

:59:57. > :00:00.be mandated from the centre. The government has not made the case for

:00:01. > :00:04.changing the Fire Service in this way. Nor has he shown how the

:00:05. > :00:08.independence and funding of the Fire Service will be protected in this

:00:09. > :00:12.new system. The Fire Service will be more vulnerable to cuts as the

:00:13. > :00:18.junior partner in this arrangement. I know the designs I just outlined

:00:19. > :00:22.are night is held by Labour counsellors. They are held by

:00:23. > :00:27.conservative councils as well as the knobs on the benches opposite would

:00:28. > :00:31.appear to indicate. I give notice tonight that unless the government

:00:32. > :00:40.can show how Fire Services will be protected and local people given the

:00:41. > :00:43.final say, label will bring a vote to oppose this ill thought through

:00:44. > :00:48.proposal. Our Fire Services have been shot. It is time to take a

:00:49. > :00:52.stand for the Fire Service and for the thousands of dedicated

:00:53. > :00:57.firefighters to be recognise as an important and separate role.

:00:58. > :01:04.as the government seems to want, label would propose and a current

:01:05. > :01:07.and future for the fire rescue services, responding to future

:01:08. > :01:11.challenges. For instance require stats to responsibility to deal with

:01:12. > :01:16.flooding. Now I'm sure I've heard the policeman mentioned before more

:01:17. > :01:20.the ones, that he was a fireman. But it looks like this former fireman

:01:21. > :01:23.has been given a mention perhaps to bore people into a sense of false

:01:24. > :01:26.security, to oversee the demise of the Fire Service as a separate

:01:27. > :01:30.entity. I can tell him tonight that we are not going to let it go. We

:01:31. > :01:36.won't let it go without a fight. I will give way one last time before I

:01:37. > :01:42.conclude. Thank you for giving way. He knows we have worked together on

:01:43. > :01:48.many things. Notwithstanding the as the you, he has to understand and he

:01:49. > :01:51.said this. He said that crime is changing. It is the fact that the

:01:52. > :01:54.demand on the Fire and Rescue Service has been on a downward trend

:01:55. > :01:59.for the last ten years in this country. This is followed by about

:02:00. > :02:04.40 to percent in England in the last ten years. Does he not accept that?

:02:05. > :02:08.That is part of the change here. My Mac that is absolutely correct Mr

:02:09. > :02:15.Speaker but I would put back to him that the risk of a major incident

:02:16. > :02:20.has written in recent times. And we have seen with the recent floods,

:02:21. > :02:24.the pressures on emergency services can at times be considerable. What I

:02:25. > :02:28.would say to him is that it is not for me to say what the right level

:02:29. > :02:32.of provision is. As for his government to say how far can these

:02:33. > :02:37.fire cuts go before we are exposing the public to an acceptable level of

:02:38. > :02:42.risk? Does he think it is acceptable for my Fire Service or the Fire

:02:43. > :02:46.Service elsewhere to be effectively cut in half? I would say to him that

:02:47. > :02:51.many experts think that it is not. The cuts have already gone to far.

:02:52. > :02:57.The government must guarantee public serve tea and prove that they have

:02:58. > :03:04.not. In conclusion these back of the envelope plans for police volunteers

:03:05. > :03:07.for what is otherwise a good bill. The Home Secretary and I have worked

:03:08. > :03:11.constructively together in the past. I hope she might be prepared to work

:03:12. > :03:14.with me to address some concerns that I have outlined today. In that

:03:15. > :03:22.spirit, we will not vote against this bill tonight. But unless we see

:03:23. > :03:26.real moves toward a tougher police bail for jeans, more accountability

:03:27. > :03:31.for retired police officers, and better protection for the Fire

:03:32. > :03:35.Services, that we will ask the House to divide at the state. We will

:03:36. > :03:40.continue to argue that our emergency services can not keep us safe in a

:03:41. > :03:44.changing world, with year on year cuts like these. What they need is a

:03:45. > :03:48.convincing, funded, plan for the future that they can get behind that

:03:49. > :03:55.can keep the public safe. If the government will not provide that,

:03:56. > :03:59.then Labour well. Hear, hear! Element thank you Mr Deputy Speaker.

:04:00. > :04:03.Before I start and I congratulate the Home Secretary in bringing forth

:04:04. > :04:08.this bill. I'm aware that some bills are driven by the civil service and

:04:09. > :04:12.some bills are driven by number ten. This bill is driven by the Home

:04:13. > :04:14.Secretary. Again she's to be congratulated for that. I have

:04:15. > :04:20.worked closely with the wholesaler Terry of the past few years on many

:04:21. > :04:25.of the areas covered by the store. I know she had held meetings at the

:04:26. > :04:28.Home Office, with about a variety of interested parties. Parties within

:04:29. > :04:35.the past may not have access to the Home Office. I know also that she

:04:36. > :04:40.has hosted conferences, one in 2014 with but mental health UK, to

:04:41. > :04:45.discuss policing particularly around African Caribbean people with mental

:04:46. > :04:47.health problems. Once again I'm not ashamed to say that I congratulate

:04:48. > :04:54.the Home Secretary for bringing this bill for today. I would also like to

:04:55. > :05:00.congratulate my Honorable friend Regis. He is the unsung hero when it

:05:01. > :05:04.comes to the debate around mental health, both in this bill but also

:05:05. > :05:08.when the Secretary of State for Health is addressing this chamber

:05:09. > :05:13.from the dispatch box. The Honorable member Regis is chairman of the

:05:14. > :05:17.party mental health group. He has done the job for more than ten years

:05:18. > :05:22.and he has been dogged and determined in pursuit of many other

:05:23. > :05:28.reforms, contained in this bill today. Eastern edge opportunity met

:05:29. > :05:35.years. We're very lucky to have here today. We need to be clear though. I

:05:36. > :05:38.know the Home Secretary understands this. We need to be clear that we

:05:39. > :05:43.cannot will place the safety into being. We can to shut our eyes and

:05:44. > :05:48.think really hard and hope that it is all going to be all right.

:05:49. > :05:52.Because actually there does need to be the physical drive and political

:05:53. > :05:57.determination to provide these places of safety, so people can be

:05:58. > :06:02.looked after and treated with respect during that time of crisis.

:06:03. > :06:10.The Home Secretary is absolutely right when she says a police cell is

:06:11. > :06:15.no place for an ill person. Being ill is not a criminal offence. Being

:06:16. > :06:24.ill and black is not a criminal offence. We know that if you are of

:06:25. > :06:27.African- Caribbean descent, suffering and mental health crisis,

:06:28. > :06:31.you are more likely to be subjected to force. You are more likely to be

:06:32. > :06:37.detained or you are more likely to be subjected to a community

:06:38. > :06:41.treatment order. This is not right. We need to address these unfairness

:06:42. > :06:47.is in the system. It is ensuring that a large number of people, who

:06:48. > :06:52.need our help, are frightened to engage with those able to offer help

:06:53. > :06:55.because their experience up to this point has been unsatisfactory. So

:06:56. > :07:02.that is my plea today. One of my place today. We can not make demands

:07:03. > :07:08.on the police to change the way they do things around providing places of

:07:09. > :07:16.safety, unless we actually do provide those places of safety. My

:07:17. > :07:21.experience of the police force, in most cases, is that they want to do

:07:22. > :07:28.the right thing. They wanted to do the proper thing by the people

:07:29. > :07:33.they're protecting. Most police officers are left destroyed at the

:07:34. > :07:37.idea of having to take an ill person, or a young person to a

:07:38. > :07:43.police cell, as opposed to putting them in the care of health care

:07:44. > :07:48.professionals. Taking them to a hospital or a safe place with a bit

:07:49. > :07:53.to offer them. The truth is, and this is not in the home secretaries

:07:54. > :08:01.lists, there are not enough beds for a very ill people, in this country.

:08:02. > :08:05.Mentally ill people suffering a real crisis. There is nothing more boring

:08:06. > :08:08.than members of Parliament standing up in this place and think well I

:08:09. > :08:14.have been warning about this for years. I want to be boring. I note

:08:15. > :08:21.there have been warnings about this for years. For the past ten years

:08:22. > :08:27.myself and the Honorable member for the new forest, before being joined

:08:28. > :08:32.by my Honorable friend Regis, said we need more beds. I hope the Home

:08:33. > :08:34.Secretary will be uncompromising in her discussions with colleagues in

:08:35. > :08:39.the Department of Health, to make sure they are in a position to

:08:40. > :08:48.support our police officers in doing the right thing and the best thing.

:08:49. > :08:54.I give way. Is my Honorable friend. He gave a great speech. To advocate

:08:55. > :09:03.some police stations as an interim place of safety, where people can be

:09:04. > :09:08.put not NFL went on their way to the hospital? My Honorable friend is

:09:09. > :09:10.trying to be constructive. I generally say he's been constructive

:09:11. > :09:15.but I just don't think police stations on the right place to take

:09:16. > :09:20.ill people. I just know that that's the case. In some circumstances, it

:09:21. > :09:24.may be unavoidable. But we need to minimise those circumstances. That

:09:25. > :09:27.is what we need to do. We need to minimise those circumstances. Also

:09:28. > :09:33.often that is the case that a police cell is used as a place of safety.

:09:34. > :09:39.That is not right. I really do except the spirit in which the

:09:40. > :09:47.intervention was made. As well as... I give way. Do you agree with me

:09:48. > :09:51.that someone having a heart attack is in crisis with Matt this is a

:09:52. > :09:57.life threatening situation. Someone who is in severe mental torture and

:09:58. > :10:02.is in a crisis and potentially a life threatening situation. Why

:10:03. > :10:10.should the to be treated differently? Model friend. He knows

:10:11. > :10:13.I don't think the to should be treated differently. That is why he

:10:14. > :10:16.and I have joined forces on so many pages in the past and will do in the

:10:17. > :10:20.future. To make sure that the reality changes. It is slow progress

:10:21. > :10:23.but we are making progress. Honorable friend Regis is helping us

:10:24. > :10:27.to make progress. I find no disagreement with the honourable

:10:28. > :10:31.gentleman opposite in the point that he makes. As well as of the lack of

:10:32. > :10:37.acute beds to transfer people to, in many places the choice of health

:10:38. > :10:39.based places of safety that can be used for assessment are incredibly

:10:40. > :10:46.limited. At this point in my speech I am going to draw to an excellent

:10:47. > :10:52.and concise briefing provided by the Royal College of psychology. For

:10:53. > :10:57.example, there are no health plays bass of safety that can be used for

:10:58. > :11:03.under 16-year-old in molten -- many local authority areas. Including

:11:04. > :11:07.Devon North Fork big insurer or bad. That is not good. That is not

:11:08. > :11:12.sustainable. Of course it is not all doom and gloom. There's clear

:11:13. > :11:16.evidence that where local areas if the size of long-term preventative

:11:17. > :11:21.measures and put in place crisis outrage and triage teams, they have

:11:22. > :11:25.already improve services and would easily be able to provide care set

:11:26. > :11:29.out in the bill before us today. We heard it from the Home Secretary and

:11:30. > :11:34.it is worth repeating that the prices care has been a great driver

:11:35. > :11:40.in this. The Home Secretary would also know that most Department of

:11:41. > :11:43.Health funded schemes have managed to significantly reduce the number

:11:44. > :11:47.of people being detained under section 136 of the Mental Health

:11:48. > :11:56.Act. For example in the areas where street triage is our operating. The

:11:57. > :12:03.pilots have it delivered massive reductions in the use of 1%. I

:12:04. > :12:13.understand having an adjournment debate on this very subject about a

:12:14. > :12:18.year ago. I will certainly give way. I listen to his speech carefully.

:12:19. > :12:26.Would he agree with the point that I make that ?15 million is not enough.

:12:27. > :12:29.There is a huge shortage of crisis across the country. Does he agree

:12:30. > :12:35.with me that there may be risk in enacting these proposals until major

:12:36. > :12:37.investment is put into place for mental health crisis services? I

:12:38. > :12:44.would agree with the right honourable gentleman that we do need

:12:45. > :12:48.more beds. It cannot be right that children and adults at a point of

:12:49. > :12:56.crisis, sometimes I driven hundreds of miles from their home to receive

:12:57. > :12:59.treatment. The honourable gentleman may recall that one of his

:13:00. > :13:02.predecessors had an adjournment debate a few months ago,

:13:03. > :13:08.particularly relating to how children are treated, when and

:13:09. > :13:13.mental health crisis occurs. Again he pointed out that some of the

:13:14. > :13:17.people he is aware of, one of his own constituents indeed was being

:13:18. > :13:22.treated to 100 miles from his family home. That is not acceptable. My

:13:23. > :13:27.right honourable friend did say that outside the nature of this place, he

:13:28. > :13:31.had a good working relationship with the Home Secretary. I think on this

:13:32. > :13:36.matter it would be fantastic if the front bench could work together

:13:37. > :13:41.along with the Secretary of State to help them make sure we get it right.

:13:42. > :13:49.If I could just briefly, Mr Deputy Speaker, and I will wind down. I

:13:50. > :13:58.look at the successes of triage. Derbyshire 20% reduction tends

:13:59. > :14:03.Valley 39%, Sussex was booted a 27% Yorkshire and 26% and the reductions

:14:04. > :14:07.were greater still for a number of people being put under police

:14:08. > :14:12.custody under section 136 in these areas. For example 50% reduction in

:14:13. > :14:19.Derbyshire and 85% reduction in death Valley. 44% in West Yorkshire.

:14:20. > :14:27.These are real numbers with real meaning that are making a real

:14:28. > :14:31.difference. The Royal College of psychiatrists and other interested

:14:32. > :14:35.parties, are calling for the bill to be amended, so the Secretary of

:14:36. > :14:40.State for Health is obliged to report back to parliament on the

:14:41. > :14:45.range of crisis responses in each area. This includes the triage team,

:14:46. > :14:52.availability of acute psychiatric care beds, and health faith places

:14:53. > :14:57.of safety. These sorts of details and this sort of information would

:14:58. > :15:03.help the Home Secretary and her team to deliver on their pledge. This

:15:04. > :15:08.places a worthwhile pledge and it needs the support of the Department

:15:09. > :15:15.for help. So Mr Deputy Speaker, I have spoken for longer than I wanted

:15:16. > :15:19.to. I do want to say this in conclusion. Mental health is not a

:15:20. > :15:26.criminal event. It is a health crisis. We need to look after people

:15:27. > :15:31.with care and compassion and commitment. It is no good talking

:15:32. > :15:37.about things. It is no good looking good, as someone once said to me. It

:15:38. > :15:43.is important what we spend more time on being good. We need to be good

:15:44. > :15:53.not look good. LAUGHTER. Thank you very much. I welcome the opportunity

:15:54. > :15:56.to speak today and I share the sentiments as the Secretary of State

:15:57. > :16:01.in recognising the 10-year anniversary of the events in Paris

:16:02. > :16:07.in Scotland we have seen a record reduction in the number of crimes

:16:08. > :16:18.committed in the last four years. Violent crime is down by almost 50%.

:16:19. > :16:24.Crime is down in Scotland and the police budget. This has allowed

:16:25. > :16:27.additional support for waiving of services, including community

:16:28. > :16:33.policing. Support for forensic services and organise plan and drug

:16:34. > :16:38.enforcement and counterterrorism. Mr Deputy Speaker. A lot of what is

:16:39. > :16:43.contained in today's bill, I won't be able to go on and we'll have some

:16:44. > :16:48.impact on my constituents. In those parts that do affect Scotland, the

:16:49. > :16:54.government must do all that it can to create insurance and clarity.

:16:55. > :16:58.Specific concerns have been raised around immigration. Article 33 of

:16:59. > :17:03.the deputy convention states that no state shall expel or return a

:17:04. > :17:07.refugee in any manner whatsoever to the frontiers of territories where

:17:08. > :17:13.his life or freedom would be threatened. This fundamental idea,

:17:14. > :17:18.and one of the central pillars if not the central pillar of the

:17:19. > :17:22.refugee convention. The government is bound by a refugee is a matter of

:17:23. > :17:30.domestic and international monitors their war concerning the cost of 60

:17:31. > :17:38.to 60 to six of this bill intersected in the UK to be detained

:17:39. > :17:42.outside the UK. The liberty that this purports to give the Secretary

:17:43. > :17:47.of State to defile refugees on that any such pores by returning them to

:17:48. > :17:52.a foreign port. There is nothing in the proposal to require the

:17:53. > :17:58.Secretary of State to refer in force officer to carry out these towers.

:17:59. > :18:04.We must lawfully processed and assess the claims and determine

:18:05. > :18:08.whether they can be lawfully removed with in the Dublin regime. Nor can

:18:09. > :18:13.the government use its enforcement powers to identify alleged breaches

:18:14. > :18:17.of the immigration law, to enforce penalties or bar refugees from

:18:18. > :18:23.making asylum claims on this basis. I would therefore ask the Minister

:18:24. > :18:26.today and in response to say unambiguously that he intends to

:18:27. > :18:32.comply with the deputy convention and the European Court. Mr Deputy

:18:33. > :18:37.Speaker of the SMP are supportive of the provisions of the bill in

:18:38. > :18:40.relation to firearms. However the number of elements that make sense

:18:41. > :18:44.of the competencies of the Scottish Parliament, and I would ask that the

:18:45. > :18:47.Minister, I would ask the Minister to ensure the House that he look

:18:48. > :18:53.closely at the Scottish Government to ensure that problems do not arise

:18:54. > :18:56.on the consent motions are required. In particular I would seek

:18:57. > :19:06.assurances from the government that provisions in relation to lethal,

:19:07. > :19:11.viral weapons do not compact... On that another provision in this bill

:19:12. > :19:17.regarding could potentially expand of the Scottish ministers and

:19:18. > :19:21.therefore require legislative consent motion. All so giving police

:19:22. > :19:28.power to require arrested persons to state their nationality for all

:19:29. > :19:32.offences, seems to go beyond the practice. This will affect the

:19:33. > :19:36.devolved powers and therefore the UK Government must continue to engage

:19:37. > :19:44.with the Scottish Government on these powers. In Scotland police

:19:45. > :19:47.forces are already able to ask any person who is detained to provide

:19:48. > :19:52.details of their nationality. These powers will be that way in the

:19:53. > :20:00.criminal justice Scotland Act. Mr Deputy Speaker if the past bill --

:20:01. > :20:04.bill is passed on police questioning, rest her fitting, it is

:20:05. > :20:11.currently the case that those arrested or detained must give their

:20:12. > :20:17.nationality. Failure to do so constitutes an offence. The maximum

:20:18. > :20:20.penalty is a fine. The new bill however would increase in Scotland

:20:21. > :20:26.the maximum sentence for you to state your nationality, to a 12

:20:27. > :20:33.month term of imprisonment and a fine. Scotland of power to require

:20:34. > :20:38.such a person to produce a nationality document was failure to

:20:39. > :20:42.do so, with the same maximum sentence. These changes represent a

:20:43. > :20:46.very important increase in the significance of these powers, to any

:20:47. > :20:50.individual whose nationality is called in question onerous. This

:20:51. > :20:57.could also typically the dilution of the convention since the consent of

:20:58. > :21:00.all matters. I therefore urge the UK Government to engage with the

:21:01. > :21:04.Scottish Government on these provisions and to ensure that these

:21:05. > :21:08.powers will not undermine these wider police powers to ask questions

:21:09. > :21:12.on nationality. Vital it is imperative that any implications for

:21:13. > :21:18.Scotland as a result of this legislation, I scrutinize closely.

:21:19. > :21:19.Again I urge the Minister to work closely with the Scottish

:21:20. > :21:43.Government. Agreement. Thank you madam. Mr Deputy Speaker.

:21:44. > :21:50.LAUGHTER. I do apologise. LAUGHTER. We have very close relationship. As

:21:51. > :21:55.the Honorable member pointed out, and in my role as the chair of the

:21:56. > :21:58.polymer into groups for mental health, their management welcomed

:21:59. > :22:03.the particular part of this bill that relates to sections 1350136 of

:22:04. > :22:07.the Mental Health Act. It is something that I have taken a long

:22:08. > :22:14.interest in this house. I had an adjournment in Westminster in 2014

:22:15. > :22:17.and I just wanted to. As the number of people who influenced my thinking

:22:18. > :22:21.about the importance of these changes in this bill. Particularly

:22:22. > :22:28.the work that is being done by the West Midlands Police. Particularly

:22:29. > :22:31.Inspector Michael Brown. He has a very interesting blog which other

:22:32. > :22:37.Honorable members may wish to look at. He is the mental health blogger.

:22:38. > :22:43.He came to see me in my constituency office about four or five years ago.

:22:44. > :22:51.We talked about the way in which the nature of policing was changing in

:22:52. > :22:58.society. The importance of dealing with mental health on the ground and

:22:59. > :23:00.how the nature of policing for police officers were putting

:23:01. > :23:05.themselves into situations where they were essentially having to make

:23:06. > :23:11.decisions about whether or not to use the powers under the act. They

:23:12. > :23:14.needed to day decisions on whether or not they have the ability in

:23:15. > :23:17.terms of knowledge and training to make the sorts of decisions. Not

:23:18. > :23:25.given but the history of the Mental Health Act. The Mental Health Act

:23:26. > :23:28.was initially formed in order to cope with people who were absconded

:23:29. > :23:36.from a silence. It was updated in 1983. With these provisions in it. I

:23:37. > :23:42.think these changes are very important changes it has the Mental

:23:43. > :23:48.Health Act needs to reflect a more modern experience. The modern

:23:49. > :23:55.experience of policing working with health professionals. Sometimes, I

:23:56. > :23:59.think also we need to ask questions on whether or not we need to go even

:24:00. > :24:06.further in terms of changes to the Mental Health Act. One of the

:24:07. > :24:09.downsides of having something which specifically gives police officers

:24:10. > :24:15.powers to detain people, is that it does raise issues around liberty. It

:24:16. > :24:20.raises issues around whether or not someone is capable of making their

:24:21. > :24:25.own decisions, even when they are in a mental health crisis. The

:24:26. > :24:32.fundamental point which the member made earlier was that there should

:24:33. > :24:38.not be any circumstances where any civilized person, or in which a

:24:39. > :24:44.child that has been suffering from a mental health crisis, should end up.

:24:45. > :24:50.I welcome the changes to section 136 being introduced in this bill. I

:24:51. > :24:53.think this bill also confers regulation making powers on the

:24:54. > :25:00.Secretary of State to define when an adult should also be legitimately

:25:01. > :25:11.placed in a lease Dell. Now I don't think

:25:12. > :25:22.Is where we are trying to go with this bill. What we are trying to do

:25:23. > :25:27.and say to other agencies is that a police cell and the police vehicle

:25:28. > :25:31.is not the place for someone in the mental health crisis. We have to say

:25:32. > :26:00.as police ministers responsible that is why had been a very advocate

:26:01. > :26:07.for these triage units. I was taken out by the team in Birmingham and

:26:08. > :26:15.sped by a bluelight were a man was threatening to throw himself off the

:26:16. > :26:19.new Birmingham library and as you know street triage is an effective

:26:20. > :26:25.combination of a police officer and a trained psychiatric nurse, both of

:26:26. > :26:30.whom present themselves at the point of crisis. That is the direction of

:26:31. > :26:35.travel we need to go, somewhere we could do more to get police working

:26:36. > :26:42.with health professionals and that is where we need to go. Also where

:26:43. > :26:47.we have mental health professionals within custody suites where it is

:26:48. > :26:53.not impossible to give street triage there for whatever reason. It gets

:26:54. > :27:02.around the data protection because people often know them and we could

:27:03. > :27:08.do many more way. He makes an excellent point. We need to have

:27:09. > :27:14.greater integration between policing and health. It is not, it should not

:27:15. > :27:18.be in the nature of policing for police officers to make crucial

:27:19. > :27:26.decisions about the psychiatric state of a particular individual. I

:27:27. > :27:31.thank my Honorable friend for getting way and on this point of

:27:32. > :27:39.street triage which sounds absolutely ideal and superb to I

:27:40. > :27:45.take it that's the psychiatry nurse and the policeman both have

:27:46. > :27:50.negotiation training as well. You're talking about and it says were some

:27:51. > :27:53.is threatening to throw them selves off a roof. Negotiation is also part

:27:54. > :28:01.of the training that I presume they get? Is a very very difficult and

:28:02. > :28:04.often very dangerous situation in which individuals find themselves.

:28:05. > :28:09.Having to play both negotiation skills and also an assessment of the

:28:10. > :28:14.particular condition of an individual. This is vital work being

:28:15. > :28:21.done at a street level. I very much welcome the changes and the

:28:22. > :28:25.reduction in the time in which somebody can be detained under the

:28:26. > :28:33.Mental Health Act. As the owner bubble said -- Honorable member said

:28:34. > :28:43.we have to bring it down even further than 24 hours. We should be

:28:44. > :28:48.seeking to have an even more appropriate level of time for

:28:49. > :28:52.somebody to be properly assessed psychiatrically for the nature of

:28:53. > :28:57.their condition. That does speak to the points would say these reforms

:28:58. > :29:03.this bill need to be seen in the context of a cross government

:29:04. > :29:07.approach to dealing with people with mental health problems. This cannot

:29:08. > :29:13.be seen in isolation. And needs to be seen in the context of the

:29:14. > :29:22.availability in the context of safety. The money that 12 ?14

:29:23. > :29:29.million which is been identified by the Home Office but many much more

:29:30. > :29:32.emphasis on further money and funding to be given in order to

:29:33. > :29:40.provide the appropriate level of acute psychiatric places including

:29:41. > :29:47.the roll-outs of liaison psychiatry and accident emergency departments.

:29:48. > :29:49.The crisis care concordat which was introduced by the previous

:29:50. > :29:58.government has also been effective mechanism of picking all kinds of

:29:59. > :30:04.partners together. Me too much more work across government to make that

:30:05. > :30:10.more effective. It is also wanted to raise some of the issues even though

:30:11. > :30:16.the actual order of magnitude of the numbers is not high whether been

:30:17. > :30:20.deaths in custody some of those have related to people who've been

:30:21. > :30:26.detained under section 136 of the Mental Health Act. We need to be

:30:27. > :30:30.mindful of the issues that have been raised by the use of restraint about

:30:31. > :30:37.police officers for people who have been detained under the act. I just

:30:38. > :30:41.raised that student ministers as an issue that needs to be considered.

:30:42. > :30:48.There is some evidence that in certain circumstances in certain

:30:49. > :30:50.individual circumstances, please have used excessive restraining

:30:51. > :30:57.powers when they have been dealing with some people under section 135

:30:58. > :31:03.and 136. I also welcome the broadening of the definition of

:31:04. > :31:07.patient safety under section 135 which can meet somebody being kept

:31:08. > :31:12.in their own home or somewhere in close proximity to where the crisis

:31:13. > :31:19.has taken place in order for them to be assessed appropriately. I think

:31:20. > :31:24.these are changes which many people have called for over many years and

:31:25. > :31:26.I'm very pleased at the Home Secretary in the front bench have

:31:27. > :31:30.listened to the representations that have been made by police officers on

:31:31. > :31:36.the ground, by health care professionals. I think the way that

:31:37. > :31:42.we treat people in mental health crisis says a lot about the sort of

:31:43. > :31:48.society that we want to build. These are the very significant steps

:31:49. > :31:52.forward in improving our approach to dealing with people in mental health

:31:53. > :32:00.crisis. There only one part of the story. We need to do more work to

:32:01. > :32:03.get parity of esteem between mental and physical health. We are

:32:04. > :32:06.somewhere on the route. The government has made a series of very

:32:07. > :32:11.welcome announcements on mental health the last few weeks.

:32:12. > :32:19.Particularly, focusing on crisis care and community care. We need to

:32:20. > :32:24.go further. In order to achieve that goal of saying that an individual is

:32:25. > :32:28.the mental health crisis they're going to get compassionate care,

:32:29. > :32:33.they're going to be taken to an appropriate place, and they are

:32:34. > :32:38.going to be dealt with dignity and a sense of humanity which is very very

:32:39. > :32:43.important to the way we treat mental health in Britain today. This is

:32:44. > :32:48.been a very interesting and encouraging debate with this seems

:32:49. > :32:58.to be camaraderie across the chamber. We have had flirting by the

:32:59. > :33:06.Honorable member, Braintree with the Home Secretary. Three of them have

:33:07. > :33:11.now disappeared. Where had the other member being lavished with praise.

:33:12. > :33:19.I'm going to lavish the member from proximal point with praise. It is

:33:20. > :33:29.only seven minutes past six Mr Speaker. -- 6:07pm. I'm going to

:33:30. > :33:34.gradually to the Member for an excellent speech. His own

:33:35. > :33:37.contribution with the government has done today because he has been a

:33:38. > :33:43.great campaigner on mental health issues and we are extremely grateful

:33:44. > :33:47.to him for all that he has done. As we are with the other Honorable

:33:48. > :33:53.member in his capacity as chairman of the all party group. The

:33:54. > :33:59.government is right to have introduced the clause as it has in

:34:00. > :34:03.this new bill. It will give effect to the number of the issues and

:34:04. > :34:08.concerns that have been raised over a number of years by members.

:34:09. > :34:14.Finally we have something in the legislation. I want to start with

:34:15. > :34:21.thinking the Minister for policing and crime and Fire Service. For

:34:22. > :34:27.writing to me on the 11th of February and telling me and asking

:34:28. > :34:33.me to pass this onto members of the home affairs select committee. But

:34:34. > :34:38.the legislation gives effect to five separate recommendations made by the

:34:39. > :34:42.home affairs select committee and reports that are published in the

:34:43. > :34:47.last Parliament. I do not know whether it is because one of our

:34:48. > :34:51.former members is now the Parliamentary Private Secretary to

:34:52. > :34:57.the Home Secretary and while he was there in Marshall Street he slept in

:34:58. > :35:00.a number of these recommendations into this legislation. Whatever the

:35:01. > :35:06.reason we are most grateful and it is a courtesy that I cannot remember

:35:07. > :35:11.having been extended to me and the committee by any previous minister.

:35:12. > :35:16.Under successive governments. We're very grateful. We like to know that

:35:17. > :35:20.ministers in the Home Office our reports and even better than

:35:21. > :35:25.minister is right back and say that we're actually going to implement

:35:26. > :35:32.some of the recommendations. When I took over policing responsibility is

:35:33. > :35:36.18 months ago I did ask for the previous reports by the home affairs

:35:37. > :35:44.select committee. At a gathering dust. There were quite a few. When

:35:45. > :35:48.this happens is that we have cherry picked what is feasible and what we

:35:49. > :35:58.can deliver and we have placed it in the bill. With the help of the

:35:59. > :36:02.speakers. Carry on cherry picking. If that results in a number of

:36:03. > :36:08.changes that will find favour with also do the house that he should

:36:09. > :36:15.carry on doing that. I mental health, and bans the use of police

:36:16. > :36:29.cells as places of safety for under 18. We never believed that the right

:36:30. > :36:34.place is police cells. ... He was one of those who has always said

:36:35. > :36:41.only exceptional cases should people with illness of this kind should be

:36:42. > :36:48.in police cells. That applies to children and adults as well. We like

:36:49. > :36:52.the idea police officers being consulted or consulting members of

:36:53. > :36:56.the medical profession before removing people to a place of

:36:57. > :37:01.safety. In his right that there should be a maximum period of

:37:02. > :37:09.detention. He is right that the intention is to not have under

:37:10. > :37:16.18-year-olds in police cells, but going back to the point made by the

:37:17. > :37:21.other number is that unless the beds are available were going to get at

:37:22. > :37:24.whether we like it or not. My Honorable friend is absolutely right

:37:25. > :37:29.and that is why it must be a partnership between the local

:37:30. > :37:33.authority. Police officers are left in a position where they have to be

:37:34. > :37:37.making decisions about people who have these mental illnesses and we

:37:38. > :37:41.do not want them to be in deposition. They are not qualified

:37:42. > :37:47.to so. The police letters -- Federation also needs to be thanked

:37:48. > :37:53.for the work they have done. There are so many people in custody suites

:37:54. > :37:59.to should not be there. They would prefer them to be in any other

:38:00. > :38:04.place. It is all part of providing even better support for them. We

:38:05. > :38:08.welcome what is been said on police bail. This is one of our

:38:09. > :38:12.recommendations. The published a report on the 20th of March 2015 and

:38:13. > :38:18.we will move to publish this report because the evidence given to us by

:38:19. > :38:25.number of individuals in particular who came to the committee and made a

:38:26. > :38:32.very powerful plea that to the continued extension of bail caused

:38:33. > :38:40.the huge distress to individuals and he also said that when you have

:38:41. > :38:43.finished an investigation and you have found that there is no

:38:44. > :38:47.evidence, do not say that people are not being prosecuted because there

:38:48. > :38:51.is insufficient evidence and we cannot take it forward. Just say we

:38:52. > :38:58.could not proceed because there was no evidence what is actually what we

:38:59. > :39:06.found was the situation. I think it is important that we do that. That

:39:07. > :39:12.does not need to be a statute, surely that is simply common sense

:39:13. > :39:19.for the investing to do a thing, but it was not just one it was many. We

:39:20. > :39:23.end to put that into the bill because I see no need for to be on

:39:24. > :39:29.the statute book but actually just in the common decency way to treat

:39:30. > :39:35.people. It is extremely powerful. And very important will give great

:39:36. > :39:39.comfort to people that this is the common sense approach for those that

:39:40. > :39:44.have been on bail continuously and no evidence is found whatsoever. The

:39:45. > :39:50.listening conduct these investigations in a timely fashion.

:39:51. > :40:02.As is something that we can use an exotic example of good practice.

:40:03. > :40:14.They mentioned the case of another, or whose sister came to evidence. We

:40:15. > :40:18.were concerned in that case that his passport was not handed over at the

:40:19. > :40:26.time that he was a suspect. What we had with a letter from the police to

:40:27. > :40:32.the man asking to come along and surrender his passport. By then he

:40:33. > :40:43.had left the country. He managed to book his departure, crossed the

:40:44. > :40:49.border and he is gone. We do not know this, but he is probably still

:40:50. > :40:52.in Syria. The fact is that what is important and ministers may think

:40:53. > :40:59.this is also common sense rather than statute, we should insist that

:41:00. > :41:05.where you have terrorist suspects their password should be handed over

:41:06. > :41:09.at the time they are custody suite. We should not wait to write to them

:41:10. > :41:12.and say please head over your passport. They will have just used

:41:13. > :41:20.the opportunity to leave the country as he did. This may be common sense

:41:21. > :41:26.rather than statute but this is not a criticism of individuals as the

:41:27. > :41:30.best looking any system. Many years ago was suggested to the Justice

:41:31. > :41:34.Department that isn't it a good idea that when you have a foreign

:41:35. > :41:40.national prisoner at the time of sentence you should ask them to give

:41:41. > :41:43.their password to the court. The Prime Minister has now said this is

:41:44. > :41:52.a good idea and we should make sure that happens. These are common-sense

:41:53. > :41:59.suggestions. I know it requires an inquiry to come up with these

:42:00. > :42:05.suggestions, but why has not been implemented before? I welcome what

:42:06. > :42:10.is been done on police bail but I do think that the handover of passport

:42:11. > :42:16.is very important. We've been trying for some time to get him in the

:42:17. > :42:23.general passport service and he has eluded the committee. We'll remind

:42:24. > :42:28.him again that he does need to come in otherwise he will be writing a

:42:29. > :42:33.very stern letter. He has an important contribution to make to

:42:34. > :42:37.this debate. The Prime Minister appearing before the Liaison

:42:38. > :42:41.Committee also said he would look at these issues. I will come with that

:42:42. > :42:50.suggested with regards to the Police Federation. I think a new management

:42:51. > :42:53.had made substantial changes. I think their core purpose should be

:42:54. > :42:59.amended to include a commitment to acting in the public interest. I

:43:00. > :43:04.found her in a recent letter from the chief executive and from the

:43:05. > :43:08.chairman that some of the promises that were made with regards to

:43:09. > :43:13.returning subscriptions to police officers because they had amassed a

:43:14. > :43:17.huge amount of reserves. I know the policing minister loves talking

:43:18. > :43:21.about reserves, one the Police Federation had amassed quite a lot

:43:22. > :43:27.of reserves and we suggested that these reserves to be handed back to

:43:28. > :43:44.PC weather than collecting more of the Psalms. -- Psalms. Quite a lot

:43:45. > :43:50.is being... This bill helps us along the way and this will also be looked

:43:51. > :43:54.at as well. The set area which implements recommendations of the

:43:55. > :44:02.such committee concerns please integrity. We are very pleased to

:44:03. > :44:08.have seen that there's going to be a new statutory police bargain for

:44:09. > :44:13.officers and staff who have been dismissed any police advisory list

:44:14. > :44:20.of those under investigation. They should also be included. It also

:44:21. > :44:28.places a duty on senior officers in policing to check job applicants of

:44:29. > :44:35.the guests. Very surely the committee will be opening up an

:44:36. > :44:41.investigation of the work of the College because we think the College

:44:42. > :44:45.of policing, the home are talked about the message agency had made

:44:46. > :44:51.and no Home Secretary has made such a dramatic change to the landscape

:44:52. > :44:55.of policing, I think we have had it neglected the college of policing. I

:44:56. > :45:03.would rated very highly. I think Alex Marshall is a executive --

:45:04. > :45:07.excellent chief executive. It should stand on par with with the other

:45:08. > :45:17.Royal colleges. Like nursing and to be in a and other organizations.

:45:18. > :45:24.Because the college was absolutely brand-new. We should have the sort

:45:25. > :45:35.of confidence that these committee has looked at and agreed to. It will

:45:36. > :45:43.involve, but it was brand-new and it had to have the confidence across

:45:44. > :45:55.the country of the police. Applicant these issues we come to review the

:45:56. > :46:00.work of the commission. The session. Sometimes and I said this as I

:46:01. > :46:07.passed them to my Honorable friend, if please a local level adopted the

:46:08. > :46:10.approach that if there was a complaint try and sort out the

:46:11. > :46:18.complaint. All the members of the public may complain about us as I'm

:46:19. > :46:23.sure they do very rarely. The fact is we take more seriously a

:46:24. > :46:27.complaint then we do our letters of praise. Set the because we want to

:46:28. > :46:30.get the system right. Was it banned a disproportionate amount of time if

:46:31. > :46:34.somebody complains that we did not spend enough time with them at a

:46:35. > :46:40.surgery or a letter that we sent that we do with other members of the

:46:41. > :46:48.public. Sometimes saying sorry we got it wrong at a local level is

:46:49. > :46:53.actually better than anything else. Not all can have the privilege of

:46:54. > :46:58.coming before the House as the Minister did in saying sorry is has

:46:59. > :47:04.a public way. He has grown stronger and survived as a result. That is

:47:05. > :47:09.what they should do a local level. I have an open mind about it

:47:10. > :47:16.suggestions and I think we should do things locally, but I think a time

:47:17. > :47:19.is absolutely vital. Cannot have these go on forever and ever. On

:47:20. > :47:26.firearms please support with the government is doing, Ki reiterates

:47:27. > :47:33.that there aren't too many legislations relating to firearms

:47:34. > :47:37.and should be concerned or one act of Parliament rather than parts. You

:47:38. > :47:43.will find different based on the site very open to this. It is quite

:47:44. > :47:51.difficult to find every piece of information. Two final things. On

:47:52. > :47:58.the Fire Service, a collaboration. We have a different view. I get an

:47:59. > :48:02.open mind on this. I think if there was better collaboration between the

:48:03. > :48:10.emergency services this might help local people and I am driven by the

:48:11. > :48:14.fact that on the 14th of January there were ten amulets is parked

:48:15. > :48:19.outside the Royal Infirmary delivering patients to the Royal

:48:20. > :48:26.Infirmary that did not collect them or did not receive them. We have

:48:27. > :48:31.only got 25 ambulances and to find that ten were outside made me worry

:48:32. > :48:35.about the system we have with our emergency services. I'm open to

:48:36. > :48:39.persuasion and I am happy to look at this very carefully and I'm sure the

:48:40. > :48:48.committee will also want to look at this. The Honorable member from

:48:49. > :48:53.Braintree is here. To see whether or not this will work because of who

:48:54. > :48:56.want a system that will work with you not want to Amalgamated and

:48:57. > :49:01.collaborate and had then the whole thing collapses. Would want it to be

:49:02. > :49:07.better rather than worse. As far as volunteers are concerned I've also

:49:08. > :49:14.got up open mind on this. We do need professional police service, but I'm

:49:15. > :49:20.very concerned LAUGHTER That's we need to go carefully on this point

:49:21. > :49:28.because there are issues of vetting and there are issues of who should

:49:29. > :49:31.be accepted as volunteers, but of course the idea that the public

:49:32. > :49:37.should be part of policing is very real. Neighborhood watch, that is

:49:38. > :49:50.what it is all about. I do not see as many science in Leicester these

:49:51. > :49:55.days that's -- signs. Not as many science about neighbourhood

:49:56. > :50:01.policing. I think the fact is that we need to tread carefully as far as

:50:02. > :50:08.volunteers are concerned and if we do that I think there will be a

:50:09. > :50:11.better place service. Can I say about the police funding formula, I

:50:12. > :50:16.don't want to open up a new debate on this visible will only encourage

:50:17. > :50:23.my Honorable friend on the front page. Can I just say we do need a

:50:24. > :50:29.timetable on police funding. I know the Minister said he was waiting for

:50:30. > :50:35.the review of the national chief police counsel. I have written to

:50:36. > :50:44.Sarah Thornton to ask whether she thinks I review will store with the

:50:45. > :50:50.Minister is proposing to do. I think this all has to be paid for. Even

:50:51. > :50:55.though we have new legislation and we have had police bills before any

:50:56. > :51:00.and in all costs. We have to sort out the issue of funding. We have to

:51:01. > :51:11.be bitten in the end and having good lesson -- legislation supported and

:51:12. > :51:20.having to pay for it. As a pleasure to have the opportunity speak again.

:51:21. > :51:26.I think it shows how important we take policing in this house. The

:51:27. > :51:29.survey collects from across the House and across party basis of

:51:30. > :51:36.welcoming this wide-ranging bill which I think is evolutionary and

:51:37. > :51:45.revolutionary and moves things along here in our country. Is important to

:51:46. > :51:51.stand this place to talk about police and had direct experience.

:51:52. > :51:55.Most of us are direct experience apart from family connections. I

:51:56. > :52:03.would like to take the opportunity to put on record my thanks for those

:52:04. > :52:06.who do a fantastic job. They have tough funding settlements of the

:52:07. > :52:12.last five years but despite this they have continued to fight crime

:52:13. > :52:17.and we have seen crime continued to come down on the streets of

:52:18. > :52:27.Lancashire which is something I welcome. We had a lively debate on

:52:28. > :52:33.whether or not crime is coming down. The face of crime is changing.

:52:34. > :52:38.Online crime is a larger part of the crime committed today. We can only

:52:39. > :52:42.use the measure that we use now. We will all watch with interest what

:52:43. > :52:48.happens to crime numbers went on my crime is included. I then mentioned

:52:49. > :52:53.earlier it will be childish to stand up and say that police funding has

:52:54. > :52:59.not been under pressure. We felt the pressure across the country. I do

:53:00. > :53:03.welcome my honourable friend to protect police funding in real terms

:53:04. > :53:12.across this spending review period. That is a course on the advisor that

:53:13. > :53:18.police funding will increase the concept. He has actually increased

:53:19. > :53:23.it every single year that he has had the opportunity to do so and I don't

:53:24. > :53:28.doubt that he will do so again attitudes the important that we do

:53:29. > :53:34.protect police funding in real terms. There is a big challenge that

:53:35. > :53:39.police forces are facing in terms of keeping us safe. Turning

:53:40. > :53:49.specifically to the bill I support the changes relating to police

:53:50. > :53:57.volunteers in police support officers. It is such an important

:53:58. > :54:03.part of policing. They were not hugely popular one they were

:54:04. > :54:06.introduced. People in the police force said it was undermining

:54:07. > :54:15.policing itself. Earlier this week I was driving and there was a major

:54:16. > :54:19.road traffic accident on the Green road in the first person on the

:54:20. > :54:31.scene was a community support officer. He was doing a fantastic

:54:32. > :54:36.job of directing traffic. Clause 28 of this bill which extends the

:54:37. > :54:43.powers of chief officers to more effectively use them and volunteers

:54:44. > :54:47.giving them additional duties and extended powers is something I can

:54:48. > :54:54.support. We should knowledge the policing has changed and give them

:54:55. > :55:05.opportunities to fully utilise the resources they have available. We

:55:06. > :55:08.should have an open mind about them. It was mentioned earlier in this

:55:09. > :55:12.debate that one person who may be volunteers at day camp Peter

:55:13. > :55:18.programmer to do as much as 8000 police officers when tackling cyber

:55:19. > :55:31.crime. I think he changes his clause 28 of this bill just shows how the

:55:32. > :55:43.nature of policing has changed. ... To having PCS says in having fellow

:55:44. > :55:50.officers and chief officers in the police force. The PCS so's

:55:51. > :55:56.themselves with her people across the house who have lost them saying

:55:57. > :56:01.the first thing to go when police force comes under pressure, I don't

:56:02. > :56:10.recognise in myself, can be put in the policing

:56:11. > :56:16.Cost 29 gives role for the college of pleasing to designate the

:56:17. > :56:22.training of police volunteers ensuring that even though someone is

:56:23. > :56:26.a volunteer, they are trained to a similar rigorous high standard as

:56:27. > :56:30.their colleagues. As we see more volunteers on the street for the

:56:31. > :56:34.living worlds which may traditionally have been fulfilled by

:56:35. > :56:40.wanted officer, it is important and I think as members of the public we

:56:41. > :56:43.can expect them to have a high quality training. When we as members

:56:44. > :56:48.of the public interact with those police volunteers, it is a good

:56:49. > :56:54.experience. I usually support the provisions in cross 29. Also,

:56:55. > :57:00.prosperity just the short fiction rating to PCF those extends the

:57:01. > :57:07.complaint system to police volunteers. This ensures that there

:57:08. > :57:14.are both consistency when people are complaining about the police. We as

:57:15. > :57:19.the public demand high standards of discipline are maintained whether we

:57:20. > :57:24.are dealing with the PCSO's, please volunteers, or a wanted officer.

:57:25. > :57:30.Comment on two warrant officers I wanted to talk briefly about the

:57:31. > :57:33.role of the show constables. The Home Secretary mentioned from the

:57:34. > :57:37.dispatch box that there are currently 16,000 special constables

:57:38. > :57:42.serving in our country today, shoulder to shoulder with police

:57:43. > :57:46.officers. Of course, if any member of this house were to have

:57:47. > :57:49.interaction with the special constable he probably would not know

:57:50. > :57:54.because they look like every other type police officer, wanted officer

:57:55. > :57:58.who works shoulder to shoulder with the police officers as a volunteer.

:57:59. > :58:03.One of the great benefits is that they are drawn from all walks of

:58:04. > :58:09.life, they are policing by the people for the people. I know here

:58:10. > :58:12.in London that the Mets has done some fantastic work in terms of

:58:13. > :58:15.supporting specials, they get a reduction on the council tax, there

:58:16. > :58:20.are concessions available for travel. I know other forces around

:58:21. > :58:26.the country also provide perks I suppose like this. I hope they will

:58:27. > :58:31.continue to do so. It does bring me to the case of Andrew, as much as

:58:32. > :58:34.any of us can stand here and say special constable did fantastic

:58:35. > :58:40.work. It is a cautionary tale of one of my constituents who volunteered

:58:41. > :58:47.for the 25,000 hours, over six years as a special constable. At the end

:58:48. > :58:49.of that, he lost his job, he may potentially lose his home, he is

:58:50. > :58:55.going to lose his future career. In the course of his work as a special

:58:56. > :59:00.constable, he did what I think was a tremendously great thing. You move

:59:01. > :59:05.an unmarked police car which he had authority to drive, across the

:59:06. > :59:11.street to block the path of a scramble motorcycle am a uninsured

:59:12. > :59:15.with no MOT, non-road legal, to stop the crime of the motorcycle

:59:16. > :59:19.terrorising the community and protect a fellow officer. His thanks

:59:20. > :59:26.for this was a prosecution for dangerous driving, the policeman who

:59:27. > :59:29.get help at the time, we put him in touch with the legal advice service

:59:30. > :59:33.which is made available for special constables, that Frank Reid I don't

:59:34. > :59:37.think that was adequate in terms of the advice that was given to him. He

:59:38. > :59:41.made the choice to plead guilty, as I say now would be dangerous driving

:59:42. > :59:45.conviction, he is unable to carry on his business as a driving

:59:46. > :59:51.instructor. I think things could have been different if there is a

:59:52. > :59:54.special constable, had the protection of the Police Federation.

:59:55. > :59:58.There are many provisions, to provisions in this bill dealing with

:59:59. > :00:04.the Police Federation of cost 37 and 38. I support the provisions as they

:00:05. > :00:11.are within extended things of the freedom information act making the

:00:12. > :00:16.police marked its parent and open to its members. I do feel in this bill

:00:17. > :00:21.we have missed an opportunity to use a legislative bill coming to this

:00:22. > :00:25.house to extend the Police Federation protection to special

:00:26. > :00:31.constables and look for it to today's debate and representatives

:00:32. > :00:35.of the Police Federation. Their advanced talks with the Home Office

:00:36. > :00:41.to see where we can be found in the legislative row Graham to pass the

:00:42. > :00:44.primary legislation to enable police to protect the show constables. I do

:00:45. > :00:54.feel there is a missed opportunity in this bill and I hope that

:00:55. > :00:57.committee or reports, they may be an opportunity to make the primary law

:00:58. > :01:02.legislation changes that are required to protect specials

:01:03. > :01:06.constables. I think it is important because the Police Federation has

:01:07. > :01:11.for many years regarded specials constables with suspicion. In fact

:01:12. > :01:17.years ago they took the view that the role of a special constable

:01:18. > :01:22.undermined the wanted officers they stood with policing our streets,

:01:23. > :01:28.they undermine the will of a police. Back in 2014 there was an unanimous

:01:29. > :01:32.resolution at the police conference that actually members of the Fed

:01:33. > :01:36.wanted it to be expanded to protect specialists because we should not be

:01:37. > :01:41.surprised by that. They have today they stand shoulder to shoulder with

:01:42. > :01:45.paid wanted officers working the same bits, working the same hours,

:01:46. > :01:50.working the same shifts. To protect the public and keep it safe. I do

:01:51. > :01:53.think there is a missed opportunity, I hope the Minister will look at

:01:54. > :01:56.this opportunity and work would be fed to take it forward. I think when

:01:57. > :02:02.we do that, when the legislative opportunity comes along, the

:02:03. > :02:05.government should also look at what we'll do at the Federation subs for

:02:06. > :02:09.specials constables. I talked earlier about the work at the Mets,

:02:10. > :02:13.providing a reduction in council tax. The Fed subs are not

:02:14. > :02:17.significant, if you aren't working as a special constable volunteer,

:02:18. > :02:22.where they should be paying around ?30 a month for the privilege of

:02:23. > :02:27.doing so, I hope when we make that legislative change that we can find

:02:28. > :02:29.money to pay the subs of specials constables on their behalf. I hope

:02:30. > :02:33.this will come out of central government bonds rather than

:02:34. > :02:40.individually individual forces bonds. Finally, Mr Speaker I just

:02:41. > :02:44.thought I would talk briefly about one point raised by the Shadow Home

:02:45. > :02:50.Secretary. Again I think he had a good point when talking about the

:02:51. > :02:53.retirement of officers. It is clearly a loophole that those under

:02:54. > :03:01.investigation could be for this bill came forward avoid that

:03:02. > :03:06.investigation by retiring or resigning from that post. As someone

:03:07. > :03:12.who was brought up in Liverpool, like the Shadow Home Secretary I was

:03:13. > :03:16.well aware of the allegations around Hillsboro and the ongoing

:03:17. > :03:22.investigation into it. I think that a 12 month arbitrary cap on the

:03:23. > :03:27.urethra which officers can be issued probably is not correct. I do hope

:03:28. > :03:32.we will look at this again. It can be treated in a similar way as the

:03:33. > :03:36.statutes of limitation that we have in our New Orleans late into the law

:03:37. > :03:42.of talk, whereby that limitation on the starts to run from the date that

:03:43. > :03:44.the talks are the one in this case is known about. I will be a

:03:45. > :03:51.reasonable adjustment for the government to make because in his

:03:52. > :03:56.birth there was clearly the parties cover up, it could not have been

:03:57. > :04:00.known within 12 months of that incident the extent of which serving

:04:01. > :04:04.police officers may be implicated. I do think there is an opportunity if

:04:05. > :04:08.we could look again at that one point and I hope as we discussed the

:04:09. > :04:15.bill is equal to this house he might have the opportunity to explore that

:04:16. > :04:17.further. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, what an opportunity it is

:04:18. > :04:24.to follow on from the very considered speech from the Honorable

:04:25. > :04:30.member for Darwin who was brave and absolutely right in adding to the

:04:31. > :04:38.calls for the extension of this period beyond the 12 months. I

:04:39. > :04:40.sincerely hope that is something the government will here today and

:04:41. > :04:50.agreed to look at and move on during the report stage. I will not put a

:04:51. > :04:55.huge amount on the integrity and professionalism of the police, and

:04:56. > :04:58.rightly so but nobody is infallible. When the police mess up, the public

:04:59. > :05:05.want to know they are held probably two accounts. Public confidence is

:05:06. > :05:09.vital for effective policing. Accountability in the police have

:05:10. > :05:16.come a long way in a relatively short space of time. It was only in

:05:17. > :05:21.2002, it is easy to forget that at the last Labour government. The RPC

:05:22. > :05:25.see in response to the even though his case. It was a huge step

:05:26. > :05:32.forward. But still, compared to other public services, the police

:05:33. > :05:38.remains under scrutinised. There are too many investigations that are

:05:39. > :05:42.occurring behind closed doors, there are too many suppressed reports, too

:05:43. > :05:48.many offices take retirement rather than taking a wrap for their

:05:49. > :05:50.mistakes. The reception of this bill would make real progress on a lot of

:05:51. > :05:56.these issues and that is very welcome. The widening of the

:05:57. > :05:59.definition in Clause 11 is sensible and which will hopefully allow a

:06:00. > :06:05.greater level of scrutiny. It is good to see that officers will no

:06:06. > :06:13.longer be able to dismiss complaints as fanciful without courting them.

:06:14. > :06:20.Most welcome, Matt and the Speaker is the role of the IP cc in

:06:21. > :06:23.investigating which was always a verse of the body had to wait for a

:06:24. > :06:29.referred before acting. I'm glad they are now able to act with

:06:30. > :06:37.greater freedom when the body thinks that wrongdoing has occurred. The

:06:38. > :06:43.move from managed to direct investigations with more IP cc

:06:44. > :06:46.oversight is also a step in the right direction for transparency and

:06:47. > :06:51.accountability. It is right that the body will now be required to

:06:52. > :06:59.investigate all cases involving chief officers the House would be

:07:00. > :07:01.aware of the tragic case of Poppy Worthington in my constituency. I

:07:02. > :07:07.have read this case already a number of times on the floor of the House.

:07:08. > :07:13.And I know that the ministers on the bench opposite or aware of it. The

:07:14. > :07:17.failings of the police in Cumbria and the aftermath of copy's best are

:07:18. > :07:23.deeply troubling. Not only is this case raised questions about the

:07:24. > :07:29.conduct of my local force, it is also prompts wider questions about

:07:30. > :07:33.the overall system and structure by which police are held to account

:07:34. > :07:41.beyond the changes which are currently set out in the bill as it

:07:42. > :07:46.received its second reading. I am concerned that these proposals are

:07:47. > :07:49.for all the positive steps within them that they are currently missing

:07:50. > :07:56.the opportunity to deal with those issues. Three specific issues I want

:07:57. > :08:02.to raise the Deputy Speaker. One, the information available to police

:08:03. > :08:08.to allow them to perform their roles effectively. Two, the disciplinary

:08:09. > :08:13.focuses on the role of the IPCC. And three, new rules for officers who

:08:14. > :08:19.did the force. In Cumbria, we have just welcome back Graham as our

:08:20. > :08:26.Chief Constable following a period of a leave of absence or ill health.

:08:27. > :08:30.In his absence, the Deputy Chief Constable, Michelle, acted in this

:08:31. > :08:36.position. This is normal procedure Madam Deputy Speaker, and it meant

:08:37. > :08:42.that she was at the helm in recent months during the revelations about

:08:43. > :08:47.Poppy's best. The problem is that she was also one of the officers

:08:48. > :08:53.criticised by the IPCC in their report into police failures in the

:08:54. > :08:59.poppy case. A report which is still not been published and which I

:09:00. > :09:03.maintained should be made public immediately. Not only was she

:09:04. > :09:08.criticised by the Police and Crime Commissioner was not made aware of

:09:09. > :09:14.the findings when he confirmed her appointment as the acting Chief

:09:15. > :09:19.Constable. I understand it is often a formality that he deputy ask up

:09:20. > :09:24.when the Chief Constable is lay low. The vast majority of cases that will

:09:25. > :09:30.make sense, it rightly requires oversight and confirmation by the

:09:31. > :09:34.police and crime commission. Otherwise, what are they therefore?

:09:35. > :09:38.In this case, it's surely the Government must agree, it was

:09:39. > :09:43.inappropriate that this happened without the Commissioner being

:09:44. > :09:48.apprised of the findings of the case against her. This must be something

:09:49. > :09:53.that can be addressed in this report. It has not been in this

:09:54. > :09:59.bill, done so yet, there is a clear opportunity to do so it if the

:10:00. > :10:04.government has the willingness to act. To have an officer having a

:10:05. > :10:12.force, and having oversight of all this open area matters to Mahut is

:10:13. > :10:17.heavily criticised by the IPCC is highly problematic. It looks onto

:10:18. > :10:22.the public, and damages trust. This situation should never be allowed to

:10:23. > :10:27.occur again. Yet, I see nothing in this bill as it stands that were

:10:28. > :10:40.correct this flaw in the original legislation as it was set out. It is

:10:41. > :10:45.not the case as a matter of routine that police and crime commissioners

:10:46. > :10:52.ought to be provided with draft IPCC reports. Even when they are unable

:10:53. > :10:57.to be published for legal reasons? When the decision is made to appoint

:10:58. > :11:04.a Chief Constable, a deputy, or to allow people to act up in those

:11:05. > :11:09.roles, the commissioner ought to be provided by the IPCC with all

:11:10. > :11:12.relevant information about unpublished investigations into that

:11:13. > :11:20.individual, even if that information is only available in draft form. If

:11:21. > :11:26.commissioners are to be more than simply window dressing sustained

:11:27. > :11:29.with considerable expense from the taxpayer, they need to access the

:11:30. > :11:35.information that allows them to do their jobs properly. Undisciplined,

:11:36. > :11:40.my the Deputy Speaker, this building is surely an opportunity to improve

:11:41. > :11:45.the current processes the on that which is already set out. One of the

:11:46. > :11:53.reasons that I have been given when inquiring about the current

:11:54. > :11:55.suppression of the IPCC reports. Yes of course... Madam Deputy Speaker, I

:11:56. > :12:00.thought it might be useful at this stage that both the Minister and

:12:01. > :12:05.myself that are listening to the speech and have listened to the

:12:06. > :12:08.contributions, we would look very carefully as to whether or not we

:12:09. > :12:13.can address the specific concerns around this issue that the Honorable

:12:14. > :12:17.gentleman is right and he rates presented to be whether we can bring

:12:18. > :12:20.it to the committee stage for the report states. We tried the best he

:12:21. > :12:26.possibly can to address this within this bill. I think the Minister very

:12:27. > :12:30.much for intervening on that, it is really well come to hear that, and I

:12:31. > :12:38.thank them for intervening now and not waiting until the summation. So,

:12:39. > :12:53.moving on to the issue about discipline, if I can find my place,

:12:54. > :12:57.which I failed to do. One of the reasons that have been given for the

:12:58. > :13:02.continued suppression of the report in the poppy case is that

:13:03. > :13:06.disciplinary action is still ongoing against two officers, yet the draft

:13:07. > :13:14.accord was available to the constabulary nearly or exactly a

:13:15. > :13:23.year ago now. The IPCC has said that they are extremely surprised in

:13:24. > :13:29.their words at the delay, yet it appears that they have no ability to

:13:30. > :13:34.compel the force to get on with this process. We are left with the

:13:35. > :13:40.situation where a force is in control of the disciplinary process

:13:41. > :13:44.but by delaying that process, it can also hold of the publication of a

:13:45. > :13:52.report which is critical of that force. I am not saying necessarily

:13:53. > :13:55.that that is deliberately what's Cumbria in February is doing, but

:13:56. > :14:02.that is clearly the effect of what is happening. That cannot be right,

:14:03. > :14:08.surely the IPCC could be given for pretty more power to compel a force

:14:09. > :14:12.to complete disciplinary action in good time rather than ending up in a

:14:13. > :14:17.situation we currently have in Cumbria. Finally, and a Deputy

:14:18. > :14:22.Speaker, I want to address what happens when officers retire or

:14:23. > :14:25.design from the force when they are facing disciplinary action as has

:14:26. > :14:34.been mentioned on a number of occasions already. Now, there has

:14:35. > :14:40.been focused on the length of time or whether 12 months is sufficient,

:14:41. > :14:45.the Shadow Home Secretary has set up quite really is not. That has been

:14:46. > :14:54.joined by already one member of the House opposite. But, can I also

:14:55. > :15:01.focus on the sanctions that are being suggested here. Now, correct

:15:02. > :15:08.me if I am wrong in this, I have raised this with the Shadow Home

:15:09. > :15:17.Secretary, my reading of the legislation as it is set out is that

:15:18. > :15:23.where an officer retires before his very hearings can be triggered

:15:24. > :15:28.against him, and it is within the 12 months, or whatever period it is, it

:15:29. > :15:32.is set out they are for the first time able to be found guilty of

:15:33. > :15:36.misconduct which is a real step forward and should be welcomed. But,

:15:37. > :15:44.the only sanction which is currently being proposed is to put them on a

:15:45. > :15:49.list which stops them working in the police force again. But, they have

:15:50. > :15:55.just retired, that is how they are seeking to escape justice for any

:15:56. > :16:00.misconduct. Telling them that they cannot come out of retirement is no

:16:01. > :16:07.kind, surely that is no kind of deterrent effect whatsoever. I very

:16:08. > :16:12.much hope that the committee stage yes short... The Honorable member

:16:13. > :16:19.would have consult with the police and will know that the intention of

:16:20. > :16:25.sanctions in the disciplinary regime is not to punish but to maintain the

:16:26. > :16:27.confidence in the profession. Even a serving police officer, the worst

:16:28. > :16:32.that could happen to them would be to dismiss without notice. It'd be

:16:33. > :16:41.rather perverse if there were a more extreme sanction for someone had

:16:42. > :16:47.retired. If not more extreme, is it? There is no chance of any sort of

:16:48. > :16:55.workplace sanction being helped on that. He can tell me if he wants in

:16:56. > :16:59.his own speech, he can tell me what he thinks the effect on police

:17:00. > :17:09.confidence, on public confidence in the police would be if a member of,

:17:10. > :17:14.someone who had been guilty of misconduct to Hillsboro, for one of

:17:15. > :17:19.the many other cases, if when it came to them, they were merely put

:17:20. > :17:25.on a list which said that the could not serve again with than any other

:17:26. > :17:28.sanction being posted. My Honorable friend be Shadow Home Secretary have

:17:29. > :17:38.mentioned the prospect of being able to reduce the pension entitlements.

:17:39. > :17:44.In certain circumstances, I hope the Minister, that is something he will

:17:45. > :17:48.carefully consider. Of course... Madam Deputy Speaker, one of the

:17:49. > :17:53.very important duties I have is to remove it pension, an officer

:17:54. > :18:00.because they have committed certain offences. Sadly, I do that legally

:18:01. > :18:03.so that is already here, and there are other sanctions, criminal

:18:04. > :18:13.sanctions that can be taken out as well. But, the pension removal is in

:18:14. > :18:16.statute now. In getting into slightly unusual situation where I'm

:18:17. > :18:22.wanting to ask questions of the Minister who is intervening on me.

:18:23. > :18:27.If my understanding of this is wrong, please point it out now or

:18:28. > :18:34.any summation. But, my understanding was that actually it was the only

:18:35. > :18:42.sanction which was available to an already retired officer, not to

:18:43. > :18:48.further reduce their pension, I will give way in just a moment, but to

:18:49. > :18:51.further reduce their pension when they had retired but to put them on

:18:52. > :18:54.this list to prevent them coming back from a job which they have

:18:55. > :19:00.already retired from the try to escape accountability. I think the

:19:01. > :19:06.Honorable member for giving way. I rise to help I hope clarify a

:19:07. > :19:10.situation, having served in a professional standards subcommittee

:19:11. > :19:12.at the Metropolitan Police Authority, the difference that we

:19:13. > :19:16.are discussing here is the difference between conduct sanction,

:19:17. > :19:20.the maximum penalty for which a dismissal from the force, and a

:19:21. > :19:25.criminal offence, and in the case of a criminal offence, pension

:19:26. > :19:29.forfeiture is one of the options. We must not confuse the two elements.

:19:30. > :19:32.OK, that is helpful, I have to say it was not me that was confusing

:19:33. > :19:39.them. I am grateful to the Minister for attempting to clarify. I think

:19:40. > :19:44.we are clear now, I appreciate it. I think we are clear that actually

:19:45. > :19:49.there is no such attention at the moment for a misconduct finding into

:19:50. > :19:57.a future retired officer. That is surely still a gap, because it seems

:19:58. > :20:04.absurd to suggest that some sort of black race could be bashed black

:20:05. > :20:09.race could seem to be a deterrent or if that is not what it is for, to

:20:10. > :20:12.get a sense of confidence in justice. I hope the government would

:20:13. > :20:25.think again in this particular issue. Also, add to that the

:20:26. > :20:30.potential for community work to be mandated in certain appropriate

:20:31. > :20:32.circumstances, in certain fields for officers are subsequently found

:20:33. > :20:37.guilty of misconduct because what is being suggested, what is being

:20:38. > :20:47.proposed I would suggest we not enough to meet the real need for

:20:48. > :20:51.greater confidence to be able to sanction retired officers. Of course

:20:52. > :20:57.I will give way. Why not listen very carefully to my Honorable friend, I

:20:58. > :21:00.understand his frustration, it would be very difficult to take someone's

:21:01. > :21:07.pension, that they have retired ten years. They have been paid a

:21:08. > :21:11.pension, it would be difficult, how would he envisioned that you would

:21:12. > :21:14.recoup the money from the last ten years does not understand his

:21:15. > :21:23.frustration, in practice it may be very difficult to do. I understand

:21:24. > :21:25.that, the difficulties with this, of course you are not going to have a

:21:26. > :21:30.tenuous situation at the moment because the government is only

:21:31. > :21:34.suggested within one year. We have to balance any logistical

:21:35. > :21:39.difficulties with the consideration that surely this would be the

:21:40. > :21:47.exception rather than the normal. If one takes the example of Hillsboro

:21:48. > :21:52.and the appalling conduct of certain officers, senior officers during

:21:53. > :21:58.that, then the idea that they have been able to escape with no sanction

:21:59. > :22:04.whatsoever is calling. We have a chance to change the system now, and

:22:05. > :22:07.to tighten it beyond the welcome steps of the government has already

:22:08. > :22:21.sent out. I really hope that we will do that. In all of pushing for this,

:22:22. > :22:26.we should give credit I think on this side that this is in this

:22:27. > :22:32.respect at least, a government that wants to make genuine progress. We

:22:33. > :22:38.have seen a Home Secretary who for all the batted criticism that this

:22:39. > :22:45.side of the House makes in many aspects of her role, I think is

:22:46. > :22:50.genuine in wanting to increase the level of accountability and

:22:51. > :22:55.transparency in an area of public service which for too many years,

:22:56. > :23:01.through generations has avoided the kind of scrutiny which other areas

:23:02. > :23:05.of the public sector has. But, I think we can do significantly better

:23:06. > :23:08.than the proposals that are currently on the table. I hope it is

:23:09. > :23:15.something the government will consider from here. Thank you Madam

:23:16. > :23:19.Deputy Speaker, it is a real pleasure to be taking part in

:23:20. > :23:23.today's debate, I am incredibly grateful for the opportunity to

:23:24. > :23:27.speak. I welcome this bill, I would like to focus my contribution this

:23:28. > :23:30.afternoon on part one. Which outlined the measures being taken to

:23:31. > :23:35.encourage greater collaboration to the emergency services. A topic

:23:36. > :23:40.which I have spoken about several times in this place. Encouraging

:23:41. > :23:45.greater collaboration between blue light services makes perfect sense.

:23:46. > :23:50.Across the services, there are common and joint purpose, and

:23:51. > :23:56.significant synergies. They serve and protect our community, ensuring

:23:57. > :24:01.that they are safe and secure, often in the most difficult of

:24:02. > :24:04.circumstances. For this, we must be incredibly grateful, as often by

:24:05. > :24:10.putting their own lives at risk to protect us. Each service also faces

:24:11. > :24:17.change, many people have discussed this today. In terms of both demand

:24:18. > :24:22.and new challenges, crime is falling, but the nature of crimes

:24:23. > :24:26.are changing. The number of incidents Fire And Rescue Services

:24:27. > :24:31.at the end is falling, thanks in part to the fire prevention work

:24:32. > :24:36.that they undertake. Yet, there is an increased demand of the Ambulance

:24:37. > :24:43.Service, it is right there for that we review the way in which the

:24:44. > :24:46.services operate. There is some excellent examples of collaboration

:24:47. > :24:51.between polite services across the country, whether this be called

:24:52. > :24:57.location of officers, shared training, joint communication

:24:58. > :25:00.centres, or joint operations, the common benefit of these

:25:01. > :25:04.collaborative models is that they deliver savings and more

:25:05. > :25:09.importantly, better outcomes for the public. The issue is, I am afraid

:25:10. > :25:16.that a deputy speaker that there is a lack of consistency across the

:25:17. > :25:22.country in terms of collaboration. With the overall picture being best

:25:23. > :25:26.described as patchy. What I am pleased to report that in December

:25:27. > :25:30.that the church fire and rescue Authority agreed to undertake a

:25:31. > :25:34.review as to ways in which they could work more closely and

:25:35. > :25:40.collaboratively with staff at your police. I was just disappointed that

:25:41. > :25:45.it took so long, around six months to get to this position. In the

:25:46. > :25:51.meantime, fire engines have been removed from both of my local fire

:25:52. > :25:59.stations, as well as other stations across the county. I therefore

:26:00. > :26:01.welcome the duty for blue light services to keep collaboration

:26:02. > :26:09.opportunities under review. I set out in clauses one through five. The

:26:10. > :26:12.bill goes a step further in terms of collaboration between police and

:26:13. > :26:19.Fire Services which I welcome, with clauses six and seven setting out

:26:20. > :26:21.measures to extend the remit of police and crime commission is to

:26:22. > :26:27.include the responsibility for Fire And Rescue Services. I have been

:26:28. > :26:31.specifically calling for this, securing a Westminster hold on this

:26:32. > :26:37.topic last November. It will therefore come as no surprise when a

:26:38. > :26:38.deputy speaker, but I am particularly pleased to see this

:26:39. > :26:49.included within the bill. Greater transparency and democratic

:26:50. > :26:54.accountability in policing, replacing what were unelected and

:26:55. > :26:57.unaccountable police authorities. The public can exercise their

:26:58. > :27:02.approval or equally, disapproval of the PCC's guardianship and

:27:03. > :27:08.elections. Judging them both in terms of the police precept and the

:27:09. > :27:14.local police and crime informants. PCC have the opportunity to review

:27:15. > :27:20.and set strategic priorities to respond and adapt to local needs.

:27:21. > :27:30.Lost at the same time, managing this was in a challenging financial

:27:31. > :27:34.landscape. A patent reform, they needed to look at ways to innovate

:27:35. > :27:39.and create efficiencies all in order to protect and, in fact, enhance

:27:40. > :27:45.front-line policing. The police and crime Commissioner in Staffordshire

:27:46. > :27:49.is not increased the police precept while in office, but created savings

:27:50. > :27:54.and better outcomes for the public by introducing technologies so that

:27:55. > :28:02.police officers could spend more time out on the streets rather than

:28:03. > :28:10.behind a desk. The performance of PC sees -- PCCs... Data such as crime

:28:11. > :28:14.trends about their performance is open to public scrutiny. There is

:28:15. > :28:20.now on the one exception in terms of local, direct accountability. Fire

:28:21. > :28:23.and rescue authorities. Whilst they are made up of elected counsellors,

:28:24. > :28:29.they are not directly appointed to these positions by the public.

:28:30. > :28:33.Simply appointed, sorry, elected to bees positions by the public, they

:28:34. > :28:38.are simply appointed to these positions. It's important that this

:28:39. > :28:43.is not, it should not be confused with Emma Craddick accountability.

:28:44. > :28:48.Hear, hear! I go back to taking Staffordshire as

:28:49. > :28:51.an example. The fire and rescue Authority had been increasingly

:28:52. > :28:56.precept, lost as I understand it they have fairly significant

:28:57. > :28:58.results. It is time for change and that's why I welcome police and

:28:59. > :29:03.crime commissioners having their remit extended to include the

:29:04. > :29:08.responsibility fire and rescue authorities. Extended the

:29:09. > :29:12.transparency and accountability, the fire and rescue services, and

:29:13. > :29:17.applying the same principles that have been applied to the police will

:29:18. > :29:23.rightly enable the public to scrutinize their performance too.

:29:24. > :29:26.The government and single-employer models will actually take

:29:27. > :29:31.collaboration to another level. In essence, seeing the integration of

:29:32. > :29:36.the two services in terms of the management and the back-office

:29:37. > :29:41.functions. It's important to note that they will remain operationally

:29:42. > :29:44.distinct, no one is suggesting that police officers should be fighting

:29:45. > :29:51.fires or fire officers arresting criminals. The integration that will

:29:52. > :29:54.come about from PCCs taking responsibility for fire and rescue

:29:55. > :29:59.will improve efficiency and effectiveness of the services,

:30:00. > :30:05.cutting out duplication, I will have to give way. Thank you, Madam Deputy

:30:06. > :30:08.Speaker. I think the honourable Lady for giving way. Forgive me, I had to

:30:09. > :30:12.leave chamber for 30 minutes earlier. Would the honourable Lady

:30:13. > :30:16.agree, it's quite possible they won't, they are distinct services

:30:17. > :30:23.and they will operate distinctly. Policemen don't do fires or firemen

:30:24. > :30:26.don't policing come a buddy will be quite helpful and sometimes they

:30:27. > :30:31.were on the same radio nets, particularly when an incident is

:30:32. > :30:35.called. Hear, hear! I am very grateful for the

:30:36. > :30:38.honourable gentleman, and for my honourable friends intervention, he

:30:39. > :30:45.is absolutely right. Corresponding would mean better responses to

:30:46. > :30:50.particular incidents, particularly emergencies. The efficiency and

:30:51. > :30:55.effectiveness of the service will also see the duplication of the back

:30:56. > :31:01.of office functions, procurement, management and offices reduced.

:31:02. > :31:08.Significant savings can be made from this integration. In Staffordshire

:31:09. > :31:12.alone, our PCC spends around ?4 million worth of savings that can be

:31:13. > :31:19.created I integrating management of Akos is functions. -- back-office

:31:20. > :31:23.functions. Thus the honourable Lady not recognise that those savings

:31:24. > :31:26.have often been taken already by collaborations inside councils for

:31:27. > :31:31.instance, collaborations with the NHS, but we're already seeing that.

:31:32. > :31:37.Where does he think the extra money is coming from? It's going to have

:31:38. > :31:41.to come from the local council. I thank the honourable Lady for her

:31:42. > :31:45.intervention, however I do believe there's a lot further we can go,

:31:46. > :31:53.whilst I do recognise that there is some collaboration within services,

:31:54. > :31:58.we could go an awful lot further. Also, Madam Deputy Speaker not just

:31:59. > :32:03.about saving money. Defective integration is about grading better

:32:04. > :32:10.outcomes for the public -- the fact of integration. Grading more viable

:32:11. > :32:16.and visible services. As creating. Also, her more holistic view can be

:32:17. > :32:21.taken in a way responded to by both services. Again, Chretien better

:32:22. > :32:26.outcomes for the doublet and more efficient use for resources -- for

:32:27. > :32:30.the public. The matters set out in these ill will on see PCCs taking

:32:31. > :32:36.these responsibilities where a local case is made. Whilst I have raced my

:32:37. > :32:41.concern about these taint be involuntary, I understand why in an

:32:42. > :32:47.era of devolution and localism, that this is the case. I am, to some

:32:48. > :32:51.extent, reassured by the statute for duty for fire and rescue authorities

:32:52. > :32:57.to co-operate with PCCs as they develop a business case, and the

:32:58. > :33:00.ability to escalate decision-making to be Secretary of State if there is

:33:01. > :33:08.disagreement. Within an independent review panel, assessing the business

:33:09. > :33:11.case. When the Minister winds up, I would be interested to hear more

:33:12. > :33:17.detail about how these two processes will work in practice. Whilst I

:33:18. > :33:23.accept the need to co-operate, the processes need to be generally

:33:24. > :33:26.robust to address this underlying resistance to change. I'd also be

:33:27. > :33:31.interested to know how frequently these reviews could be undertaken.

:33:32. > :33:37.Should there need to revisit the business case be required. I talked

:33:38. > :33:41.about public accountability. If we are to genuinely ensure that PCCs

:33:42. > :33:47.are clearly and directly accountable to the public, for both police and

:33:48. > :33:52.fire, I feel that title just need to change. So I'd like to ask the

:33:53. > :33:56.Minister, therefore, what plans they are to change the title of PCCs to

:33:57. > :34:01.afflict their new responsibilities. Suggestions have included public

:34:02. > :34:05.safety commissioners, community safety commissioners. I title with a

:34:06. > :34:09.broader scope could open up the opportunity for their role to expand

:34:10. > :34:16.further to include other blue light services over time. With scopes that

:34:17. > :34:19.extend to be amulets service for instance. After all, there are many

:34:20. > :34:24.instances when all three services are involved and responded. Madam

:34:25. > :34:28.Deputy Speaker, as I see it, these bills should be the beginning rather

:34:29. > :34:33.than the and of the blue light services elaboration journey. That's

:34:34. > :34:38.collaboration. I would urge a strategic road map would looks to

:34:39. > :34:42.further integrate these services to create consistent, connected and

:34:43. > :34:47.coordinated front line services that are more resilient and more

:34:48. > :34:50.responsive to the public's and community's changing needs. Hear,

:34:51. > :34:59.hear! Kevin Jones. Can I first of all, by

:35:00. > :35:03.broadly welcoming this bill, I want to, first of all, touch on the

:35:04. > :35:08.proposals around mental health service. And touch on some broader

:35:09. > :35:13.issues. And I think that on some issues that have just been raised by

:35:14. > :35:19.the member... Credit needs to go to government in terms of addressing

:35:20. > :35:24.the issues around the lease and their interaction with those from

:35:25. > :35:27.mental health conditions. Is it their fault? No, it's not. They're

:35:28. > :35:34.picking up, in many cases, the failure of the rest of society. But

:35:35. > :35:39.there are specific powers which they have, which has been referred to,

:35:40. > :35:48.and proposals in this bill to change in terms of the mental health 9083

:35:49. > :35:53.sections 135 and 136. These are members, quite unique pieces of

:35:54. > :35:58.legislation because they give powers to take away some of these liberties

:35:59. > :36:03.of someone who is not committing an offence or not necessarily being

:36:04. > :36:10.suspected of committing an offence. The main reason why section 135 is

:36:11. > :36:17.because somebody's suspected of a mental disorder, which will lead to

:36:18. > :36:23.themselves being done to themselves, being kept under control, or being

:36:24. > :36:28.able to care for themselves -- unable. Under 135, and magistrate

:36:29. > :36:36.cannot authorise a warrant with another mental health care

:36:37. > :36:46.professional to carry out assessment and the valuate them up to 72 hours

:36:47. > :36:54.-- 72 hours. 136 refers to people being in a public place. It says

:36:55. > :36:57.that persons from a mental disorder, or in immediate need of care or

:36:58. > :37:07.control, he or she will be taken into a place of safety, and if it is

:37:08. > :37:10.felt the safety of others need to be protected. Quite clearly there are

:37:11. > :37:16.reasons why these is needed. But I think they are being made worse by

:37:17. > :37:22.the un-joint approach we have in this country to dealing with people

:37:23. > :37:26.who have mental health issues. Is that the fault of the police? No, it

:37:27. > :37:30.is not. And I think the steps being taken in this bill will help him up

:37:31. > :37:36.but will they stop the problems? No they will not because until we

:37:37. > :37:40.actually hard-wired into public policy, mental well-being and mental

:37:41. > :37:49.health, then I seem to think that the problems will continue to exist.

:37:50. > :37:53.Under the mental health act of 1983, definition of a place of safety is a

:37:54. > :37:57.hospital, a police patient, an independent hospital or care home,

:37:58. > :38:04.or any other suitable place. Now, quite clearly, Clause 59 - 60 are

:38:05. > :38:10.trying to move away from the practice of taking people to police

:38:11. > :38:19.stations. Clause 59, for example, will allow eight soon to be -- them

:38:20. > :38:22.to be kept at home. Although I understand this already happens in

:38:23. > :38:29.some cases, but can I welcome that, and I think in terms of not going to

:38:30. > :38:33.the default position of taking someone to a police cell, that has

:38:34. > :38:40.got to be something that has got to be welcomed. Closet 60, announced --

:38:41. > :38:51.closet 60 announced that a suitable place could be deemed as someone's

:38:52. > :38:54.house or a flat, or anyplace where it is deemed that is a suitable

:38:55. > :39:00.place. I do have some problems with this because it am I think, gives a

:39:01. > :39:04.lot of ordinance on the police to decide what is the definition of a

:39:05. > :39:13.safe place. I don't think that is fair on the police officers. I thank

:39:14. > :39:18.the honourable gentleman, who is a friend. Not only does the police

:39:19. > :39:23.officer has to think what is a safe place, he probably has to make a

:39:24. > :39:26.decision as to how ill the person he has come into contact with is. That

:39:27. > :39:32.must be very, very difficult sometimes. Well, I agree. I think

:39:33. > :39:37.it's been mentioned, there's some very good best practice going on at

:39:38. > :39:40.the moment in terms of cold locating police officers and emergency

:39:41. > :39:43.services with mental health professionals. I think that would

:39:44. > :39:47.help his reference to that later on in one of the clauses, but the other

:39:48. > :39:52.problem I have, I think, is with who takes that decision. Clearly,

:39:53. > :39:56.someone is in crisis and they are faced with a choice of being taken

:39:57. > :40:01.to a police cell or being allowed to be at home, I think most will stay

:40:02. > :40:06.at home even if that is not the safest place for them. Likewise, I

:40:07. > :40:13.think the relatives of people may feel they have no choice but to go

:40:14. > :40:18.to the default position. I do think we need, possibly when it goes into

:40:19. > :40:24.committee, some examination of exactly how this would work in

:40:25. > :40:34.practice. He it would also, I think, lead to a problem which would mask

:40:35. > :40:39.the problem because, clearly my position, is that we do need a place

:40:40. > :40:45.of safety, not necessarily beds I will go on to that in a minute, but

:40:46. > :40:51.places where people can be taken to and assessed properly. If, somehow,

:40:52. > :40:55.the statistics suddenly disappeared that we aren't helping people being

:40:56. > :40:57.faced in this position, it may be a position where local health

:40:58. > :41:06.commissioners suddenly say we don't need a place of safety. I think that

:41:07. > :41:12.isn't the case. I think in terms of, that does need clarifying, in terms

:41:13. > :41:21.of what is actually deemed as a place of safety. The other one,

:41:22. > :41:27.which is Clause 59 five, is the police consult with a health

:41:28. > :41:32.professional before using section one 36. It requires, it says,

:41:33. > :41:35.requires a lease officer where practical, before using their

:41:36. > :41:41.section powers, consult the doctor or nurse or approved medical

:41:42. > :41:44.professional or another person as specified in the regulation. We

:41:45. > :41:49.haven't seen regulations yet, but again, I have some problem with this

:41:50. > :41:52.because, if we got the situations that are being outlined I think in

:41:53. > :42:00.all more debate where we have some very good triaging working, you can

:42:01. > :42:07.see that working in practice. But I think there's a big call on the

:42:08. > :42:11.police officer, and they find themselves in a very difficult

:42:12. > :42:13.situation when someone is in crisis, especially if they are threatening

:42:14. > :42:20.to take their own life, that a practical steps have to be taken to

:42:21. > :42:25.consult a mental health professional. So, I think the first

:42:26. > :42:30.is right, Madam Deputy Speaker, but I just think in practice I'm not

:42:31. > :42:36.sure how it will work without some clear indication that local police

:42:37. > :42:40.forces have ready access to the mental health professionals come and

:42:41. > :42:44.I accept that in some places there are some great work being done in

:42:45. > :42:51.terms of joint working. Clause 60 refers to the issue around the waist

:42:52. > :42:55.safety and police cells. Should a police cell be a place of safety for

:42:56. > :43:07.somebody with a mental health problems? No, it certainly should

:43:08. > :43:10.not. Section 60 has Hibbitts sells for those under 18. I agree with

:43:11. > :43:16.that, the only problem I have with it is that if there are alternatives

:43:17. > :43:22.to the police cell, what will be the default position? There is an issue

:43:23. > :43:29.around beds and that its beds that are needed. In some areas, that is a

:43:30. > :43:35.problem. But, in others is actually a place of safety to take people.

:43:36. > :43:38.The problem is we cannot separate the crisis that faces, for example,

:43:39. > :43:46.in London with housing, away from mental health. Because, if you

:43:47. > :43:49.actually have the proper support of housing and projects for people to

:43:50. > :43:54.go to them that is the alternative. A bed is not always the answer to

:43:55. > :44:02.these solutions, but clearly, and it's been demonstrated by the crisp

:44:03. > :44:07.report, that some people will actually travel some 50 km to access

:44:08. > :44:13.a mental health had. The other point is that the cost is, and I raise

:44:14. > :44:15.this early on, because these statistics are not kept nationally,

:44:16. > :44:19.how will we know whether these targets are actually being met or

:44:20. > :44:22.not? At the moment, it's sporadic whether they are being kept, so what

:44:23. > :44:27.we need I think in committee is to insert some provision for these

:44:28. > :44:34.statistics to be kept nationally so that we know. The other one,

:44:35. > :44:46.clearly, and the aim I think in terms of those who are over 18 is to

:44:47. > :44:49.try, and it says in Clause 60, that provision... Concerning use of

:44:50. > :44:54.police cells is a place of safety for persons aged 18 or over, should

:44:55. > :44:58.set out the circumstances in which a police cell may be appropriate for

:44:59. > :45:06.someone waiting for an assessment. Again, I think, and another thrust

:45:07. > :45:09.of it I don't question one minute the direction of travel of the

:45:10. > :45:12.government not wanting to place people with mental health issues in

:45:13. > :45:19.police cells, but I think some examination of what those

:45:20. > :45:24.regulations will be will be important. Clearly, if there are the

:45:25. > :45:28.beds available, place of safety available locally than people

:45:29. > :45:34.waiting long time. I've spoken to police officers and do they actually

:45:35. > :45:39.want people and their police and sales? No, they do not. The other

:45:40. > :45:45.one, which I think is welcome, is reducing the period from 72 to 24

:45:46. > :45:52.hours in terms of the maximum time for detention. Although I do

:45:53. > :45:59.question why 24 hours. 24 hours, I think, it is linked to the new

:46:00. > :46:03.police criminal evidence act, 1984. Pace for keeping people. I'm sorry,

:46:04. > :46:07.these people are not criminals so why do we have to use the same time

:46:08. > :46:13.level? If you look at the Royal College of psychiatrists guidance

:46:14. > :46:17.for commissioners on section 136, it says that it should be done within

:46:18. > :46:21.three hours. So I think we should add that as a maximum and try, if we

:46:22. > :46:32.can in committee, to get that reduced. The inference, and I'm not

:46:33. > :46:36.criticising, thinking that it will fit with the pace regulations does

:46:37. > :46:40.give the stigma of somehow these people are criminals when they quite

:46:41. > :46:43.clearly are not. The other point I think was raised earlier on by the

:46:44. > :46:49.chair of the health select committee was when the period of 24 hours

:46:50. > :46:58.starts, because doesn't start from when the person is detained -- does

:46:59. > :47:04.it start then? Or does it start when they arrive at the place of safety

:47:05. > :47:09.was not that could make a big difference, especially if you are

:47:10. > :47:12.transferring people long distances to a place of safety. I think these

:47:13. > :47:20.are things that do need to be looked at. In terms of that. The other

:47:21. > :47:25.which I think is completely missing from the proposals, do think it does

:47:26. > :47:34.need to be addressed, and that is the health service advocacy. Under

:47:35. > :47:39.the mental health act 1983, independent advocates for people

:47:40. > :47:41.with mental health... But there are some exceptions and one of those

:47:42. > :47:49.exceptions happens to be the place of safety upon deception 135 and

:47:50. > :47:54.136, the mental health act. I think that people do need advocacy, and I

:47:55. > :48:00.would like to see some provision put in this, if we are going to do it

:48:01. > :48:03.further, some access that people can have too advocacy. People who are in

:48:04. > :48:09.crisis are not going to be in the position to argue for their rights

:48:10. > :48:12.or insure that they are going to make the right decisions. I think

:48:13. > :48:17.the idea that it's an exception under the act rather than should be

:48:18. > :48:24.mandatory, I think, is something which will put pressure on the

:48:25. > :48:31.services to try and take this seriously. So, I think they are

:48:32. > :48:33.important. I do recognise the government are trying to move

:48:34. > :48:39.forward on these, and I welcome what's being done. The thinking

:48:40. > :48:46.committee perhaps needs to be looked at. Alongside that, I think what we

:48:47. > :48:52.also need is that big debate about what is a place of safety because it

:48:53. > :48:57.is beds in some cases, but I know the honourable member has got a few

:48:58. > :49:01.examples of a place of safety run by charities and others that provide

:49:02. > :49:05.great places that people can access too. I think unless we do what we do

:49:06. > :49:13.in this bill, alongside some changes both in the health service and

:49:14. > :49:20.possibly the voluntary sector, then again what will happen is this is

:49:21. > :49:27.pressed back onto the police with an unfairness. I think we need to

:49:28. > :49:30.ensure that the two are linked up because I hear what the government

:49:31. > :49:35.says, about ?15 million are being made available, well that is a drop

:49:36. > :49:40.in the ocean in terms of the problems which we are facing. What

:49:41. > :49:43.we need to do is to make sure that commissioners, locally, our

:49:44. > :49:46.commissioning services and commissioning working with the

:49:47. > :49:53.emergency services that are given these issues to provide services

:49:54. > :49:58.locally. Whether that is beds, actually I think, in many cases what

:49:59. > :50:03.I'm going around to actually I'm thinking is much more appropriate is

:50:04. > :50:06.what the honourable member said... My honourable friend is talking

:50:07. > :50:10.about short-term crisis houses, where these tend to be run by the

:50:11. > :50:15.third sector. Their community-based and people can go to them for,

:50:16. > :50:21.between three and five days come at that moment of crisis to be sorted

:50:22. > :50:24.out before they go back home or back into the communities to stay with

:50:25. > :50:29.friends or relatives. I do, and I think it is now time we need to look

:50:30. > :50:33.at that proposal, whether it is done by the voluntary sector or it is

:50:34. > :50:36.provided through the secretary sector am a because that I think,

:50:37. > :50:40.would get to a situation where the network of those across the country

:50:41. > :50:45.would get away from the use of police cells. I think that is

:50:46. > :50:50.something which could be commissioned at a local level and I

:50:51. > :50:53.think, as he well knows, provides very good value for money in terms

:50:54. > :50:58.of third sector, developing some of the services which are in many

:50:59. > :51:03.cases, are under help. I welcome the changes that are being brought

:51:04. > :51:06.forward. But I do think some slight changes are needed. Can our

:51:07. > :51:12.forgotten some of the other parts of the bill? I welcome, broadly, this

:51:13. > :51:16.bill, but I think the honourable Lady is right. You cannot take this

:51:17. > :51:23.bill and complete isolation from the funding of our police forces or our

:51:24. > :51:29.fire and rescue services. The honourable member seems to give the

:51:30. > :51:32.impression that this is all that drive and efficiency, out locally,

:51:33. > :51:36.and completely forgetting the other ?2 billion that has been taken out

:51:37. > :51:40.of the policing by our own government and the last six years.

:51:41. > :51:46.And added to that, the money that's been taken out of the local fire and

:51:47. > :51:50.rescue services. Before she comes and argues for inefficiency, I stand

:51:51. > :51:56.before her, probably, as a constituent member for durum, the

:51:57. > :52:01.most efficient police force in the UK. That is because what has

:52:02. > :52:07.happened is that efficiency has been driven, but at a cost in terms of

:52:08. > :52:13.cuts and 350 offices about to go. She talked about present and making

:52:14. > :52:16.the will -- local government accountable, that's fine but the

:52:17. > :52:22.system does need changing. An increase in the precept in durum,

:52:23. > :52:28.both on fire and police, will not increase, or fill the gap which is

:52:29. > :52:33.being taken away by central permit cuts in this skewed way in which

:52:34. > :52:38.this government seems to move money away from more deprived areas to the

:52:39. > :52:48.more affluent areas of the South. In terms of the ratio between fire and

:52:49. > :52:52.police, I am not opposed to the efficiencies in terms of back-office

:52:53. > :52:58.issues of or any other type of efficiency. But she did say that she

:52:59. > :53:02.wanted police fighting fires and fire fighters catching criminals, I

:53:03. > :53:06.agree -- she did not want. I think that's what we have been clear of in

:53:07. > :53:11.this bill. That we are not going to get some type of merging of the.

:53:12. > :53:15.Anything that we are doing to drive efficiency and make the service

:53:16. > :53:18.better for people, I was so poor. I've got to say, the firefighters I

:53:19. > :53:25.know and police officers would also want that as well -- I've got to

:53:26. > :53:28.support. I have understand the sentiment, thank you, that the

:53:29. > :53:32.honourable gentleman is expressing. But would he agree with me that

:53:33. > :53:35.there are circumstances where police officers and firefighters may want

:53:36. > :53:38.to stray over the line into each other's areas of response abilities

:53:39. > :53:42.will stop there was a famous case not very long ago when Lee's

:53:43. > :53:47.officers stood back and watched somebody, floundering in a pond,

:53:48. > :53:50.almost drowning because it wasn't their job. They did infiltrate

:53:51. > :53:54.enough to go in and get this person. They had to wait for the fire

:53:55. > :53:56.service to arrive. In our circumstances were having company

:53:57. > :54:06.three skills and be beneficial to be safety of the public gas company

:54:07. > :54:14.three skills. Yes, but I think the honourable member does them a

:54:15. > :54:17.complete disservice while giving and anecdote -- anecdotal examples.

:54:18. > :54:23.There are many cases where people were rescued from fires by police

:54:24. > :54:26.officers. Yes, but that is not about blurring their roles, and I don't

:54:27. > :54:30.think that's what the public want. The public want their police

:54:31. > :54:33.officers to attack them in terms of their streets, and they want their

:54:34. > :54:43.firefighters to be able to respond, not only to house fires, but also

:54:44. > :54:46.increasing of urgencies which they address, road traffic accidents or

:54:47. > :54:49.others. But what those special skills which of there. Any blurring

:54:50. > :54:55.of those lines I will be totally opposed to. I think, in terms of

:54:56. > :54:59.what else in this bill, it's a positive thing stepping forward. I

:55:00. > :55:04.would caution my right honourable friend from league, that I think we

:55:05. > :55:10.do need to place many amendments in committee on this. The idea of

:55:11. > :55:13.voting against this totally at report stage, I think which has not

:55:14. > :55:16.been understood by the public, and I think would give the impression that

:55:17. > :55:19.other things that have been put in other things that have been put in

:55:20. > :55:25.this bill, which I think should be welcome. Also, highlighting the

:55:26. > :55:31.things that, quite clearly, are being driven for ideological... Just

:55:32. > :55:35.to clarify, I wasn't doing my voting against the bill, per se. It is a

:55:36. > :55:40.good bill. But many of the measures in that report, we were going to

:55:41. > :55:43.specifically vote against the proposals on fire, the proposals on

:55:44. > :55:47.police bail if they are not strong enough we want to strengthen them.

:55:48. > :55:52.And lastly, on police accountability. We believe retiring

:55:53. > :55:59.I thought he had told the House to facing up to wrongdoing in the past.

:56:00. > :56:03.I thought he had told the House to oppose or board stage which I would

:56:04. > :56:07.not, but I would look forward to the not, but I would look forward to the

:56:08. > :56:10.amendment because there are some very clear amendments that can be

:56:11. > :56:15.put forward in this bill to improve it and as he said to actually make

:56:16. > :56:23.it stronger. In those closure remarks come amid speaker, Ken and

:56:24. > :56:26.Barbie welcome the Bill, are on some issues of mental health are just too

:56:27. > :56:30.do what the government really wanted you which is make the situation

:56:31. > :56:36.better and can I suggest that they do work with the secretary and

:56:37. > :56:42.others who have of the concerns tonight that hopefully we can get to

:56:43. > :56:46.where the government wants we get to a situation where we don't have

:56:47. > :56:50.these things heading up in police cells and take the burden away from

:56:51. > :56:55.police officers in dealing with something in many cases although we

:56:56. > :57:07.try very hard, and not qualified to deal with. Thank you Madam Deputy

:57:08. > :57:16.Speaker, I am going to limit my speech to just part one of the bill

:57:17. > :57:22.which is about collaborative working specifically fire authorities coming

:57:23. > :57:28.under the umbrella of IPCC and changes to the emergency planning

:57:29. > :57:31.Authority. I have served for many years on the Metropolitan Police

:57:32. > :57:37.Authority and I was until just prior to my election to this place the

:57:38. > :57:45.chairman of the London fire and emergency planning Authority. I have

:57:46. > :57:50.seen first-hand both structures, the police authority structures, and

:57:51. > :57:55.also now the workings of the mayors office for policing and crime in