09/03/2016

:00:00. > :00:11.We will come to the points of order. Honourable members raising points of

:00:12. > :00:16.order should have an attentive audience. Which seems more likely

:00:17. > :00:23.once those leaving have done so quickly and quietly. And what is

:00:24. > :00:28.more, sorry to disappoint the honourable gentleman, whose

:00:29. > :00:35.eagerness is evident for all to see, that the points of order come out of

:00:36. > :00:38.the question and this statement. I'm sure these are genuine points of

:00:39. > :00:43.order, honourable members will come scurrying back to the chamber to air

:00:44. > :00:53.their concerns at the appropriate moment. Meanwhile, we have quite

:00:54. > :01:01.considerably important and rich Parliamentary offering. Grateful to

:01:02. > :01:05.the honourable gentleman from North Dorset, with an urgent question. He

:01:06. > :01:11.is a very senior denizen of the House. Urgent question, Mr John

:01:12. > :01:14.Redwood. I would like to ask the Prime Minister if he will make a

:01:15. > :01:20.statement on what new financial and other obligations apply to the

:01:21. > :01:31.United Kingdom in the EU Turkey agreement. Minister of State. The

:01:32. > :01:35.agreements reached in principle at the EU Turkey summit on Monday

:01:36. > :01:42.represent a basis which could mean in future all migrants arriving

:01:43. > :01:45.increase will be returned to Turkey. If implemented that would break the

:01:46. > :01:51.business model of the people smugglers. Ending the link between

:01:52. > :01:55.getting in a boat and settling in Europe. Something the Prime Minister

:01:56. > :02:03.and the government have been arguing for for over a year. It would not

:02:04. > :02:08.impose obligations on the United Kingdom, in terms of resettlement

:02:09. > :02:14.and relocation. We are able to maintain our own border controls and

:02:15. > :02:20.make our own decisions on asylum. Nor were the United Kingdom beards

:02:21. > :02:24.obliged to settle any more refugees. We are resettling 20,000 of the most

:02:25. > :02:28.vulnerable Syrians to the United Kingdom from our own scheme. We will

:02:29. > :02:33.not be part of the process of liberalising visas, that is a

:02:34. > :02:37.process for the Schengen countries. We still require visas for Turkish

:02:38. > :02:43.citizens visiting Britain. The European union agreed on Monday in

:02:44. > :02:48.due course to extend the financial support to help Turkey. Currently no

:02:49. > :02:53.further proposals on funding returns, and we wait to see any

:02:54. > :02:57.proposals before commenting. We have already agreed to pay our ?250

:02:58. > :03:04.million share of the existing 3 billion euros Turkey refugee

:03:05. > :03:09.facility. I'd tabled a written ministerial statement about this

:03:10. > :03:15.earlier this week. This builds on our existing ?1.1 billion bilateral

:03:16. > :03:19.support for the Syrian crisis, and the additional bilateral commitment

:03:20. > :03:24.we made at the recent London conference on Syria. The Turkey

:03:25. > :03:28.refugee facility is designed to provide immediate humanitarian

:03:29. > :03:32.support, and also to fund of the schools, hospitals and housing

:03:33. > :03:37.required over the longer term to support refugees and the communities

:03:38. > :03:42.which host them. The agreement at the EU Turkey summit on Monday we

:03:43. > :03:47.ensure that the 3 billion euros commitment agreed at last November's

:03:48. > :03:57.EU Turkey summit is properly dispersed. Over the coming weeks we

:03:58. > :04:01.will aim to reach final agreement at the European Council on the 17th and

:04:02. > :04:04.18th of March. After which my right honourable friend, the Prime

:04:05. > :04:09.Minister will make a statement of the House as usual. Mr Speaker, one

:04:10. > :04:14.of the reasons I asked for this urgent question, the statement from

:04:15. > :04:18.the EU heads of state or government issued yesterday makes it very clear

:04:19. > :04:23.that the Visa liberalisation applies to all member states of the European

:04:24. > :04:28.Union, not just the Schengen area. I quote from the official document.

:04:29. > :04:31.They agreed to accelerate the intimidation of the Visa

:04:32. > :04:35.liberalisation road map with all member states, with a view to

:04:36. > :04:41.lifting the Visa requirements for Turkish citizens at the latest by

:04:42. > :04:45.the end of June 20 16. Will the Minister be seeking clarification

:04:46. > :04:48.and an amendment to this statement, he has told us these Visa

:04:49. > :04:53.requirement waivers will not apply to all states. Is he going to

:04:54. > :04:59.negotiate an opt out to make it very clear they will not do so. This'll

:05:00. > :05:05.be a matter of concern to people, if the text issued from the heads of

:05:06. > :05:08.government and state meeting is not the same as the clear statements we

:05:09. > :05:12.have in getting from ministers there, and through the media in the

:05:13. > :05:17.last few hours. The second thing, which I'm surprised he has not

:05:18. > :05:21.mentioned, there was not an agreement to an accelerated process

:05:22. > :05:26.to get Turkey to join the European Union as a full member. I would like

:05:27. > :05:31.to get him to comment on the United Kingdom's position on the face of

:05:32. > :05:36.the proceedings to get Turkey into the EU, and what arrangements, if

:05:37. > :05:40.any, need to be maimed when Turkey joins, over freedom of movement, and

:05:41. > :05:44.whether they would need to be transitional arrangements, which

:05:45. > :05:48.Britain would not wish to be part of the freedom of movement area without

:05:49. > :05:54.proper transitional arrangements and protections. I find it curious that

:05:55. > :05:59.we still don't know what we may be paying, if our share of 3 billion is

:06:00. > :06:05.250 million, plus the contribution we have made through the EU budget,

:06:06. > :06:12.presumably we're looking at more than 250 million on top of that, if

:06:13. > :06:15.a double it up from three - six. That will be a levy on the member

:06:16. > :06:19.states, and I think it should be properly reported to the House of

:06:20. > :06:27.Commons, because it is an additional contribution on top of the normal

:06:28. > :06:34.budget. If I could respond to my right honourable friend's three

:06:35. > :06:42.questions, we have not sat from Schengen, written into the treaties.

:06:43. > :06:48.Similar arrangements applied to Ireland and Denmark in different

:06:49. > :06:51.respects. The legal measure used for any liberalisation of these

:06:52. > :06:59.arrangements to Turkey would be a Schengen measure, brought forward

:07:00. > :07:06.under the appropriate treaty -based, therefore not applying to the United

:07:07. > :07:09.Kingdom, Denmark or Ireland. I have made clear my response to the right

:07:10. > :07:16.honourable friend, the government does not intend to liberalise Visa

:07:17. > :07:21.arrangements to Turkey. On the second point, it has been the policy

:07:22. > :07:25.of successive British governments are including the one in which my

:07:26. > :07:31.right honourable friend served with such distinction to support the

:07:32. > :07:38.eventual addition to the youth of Turkey. -- the EU. That will not be

:07:39. > :07:44.happening in the near future. The head states of government said on

:07:45. > :07:50.Monday they would prepare for the decision on the opening of new chat

:07:51. > :07:55.is for the negotiations as soon as possible. To open a chapter like

:07:56. > :08:00.chapter 23, dealing with matters of the rule of law may well be very

:08:01. > :08:05.helpful in strengthening the dialogue we should be having with

:08:06. > :08:10.Turkey on the rule of law, human rights, and the standards except

:08:11. > :08:21.expected of candidate members of the European Union. Again, no agreement

:08:22. > :08:23.yet been reached, of any aspect of opening new chapters, and many

:08:24. > :08:27.different member states will have their views on that. My right

:08:28. > :08:40.honourable friend's particular point about Turkish accession, and freedom

:08:41. > :08:43.of movement, the governance has said repeatedly, we will not agree to any

:08:44. > :08:51.enlargement of the year, unless we have first put in place new

:08:52. > :08:57.arrangements for the controls and freedom of movement. -- EU. So do we

:08:58. > :09:02.do not take on the risk we have had in 2004 a very large movements of

:09:03. > :09:07.people. In the aftermath of EU accession. Every decision to do with

:09:08. > :09:15.EU membership requires unanimous decisions, every country has a veto.

:09:16. > :09:19.Third might right honourable friend asked about finance, as I said in my

:09:20. > :09:27.initial comment, no formal proposals on the table, ongoing negotiation at

:09:28. > :09:30.EU level, where there are many moving parts. My right honourable

:09:31. > :09:34.friend, the Prime Minister, will make a statement after the European

:09:35. > :09:39.Council next week. The refugee facility agreed last year is

:09:40. > :09:48.something that is budgeted for, that is having to, causing

:09:49. > :09:50.reprioritisation by the commission amongst the various spending

:09:51. > :09:56.programmes, and that seems to be a sensible thing for them to be doing.

:09:57. > :10:01.The countries of the Middle East and the European Union are now

:10:02. > :10:06.confronted by the biggest refugee crisis since the end of the Second

:10:07. > :10:11.World War. The last 12 months, over 1 million people have the European

:10:12. > :10:15.Union by C. Does the Minister agree that the only way to deal with this

:10:16. > :10:18.crisis is to work with our European neighbours and other countries

:10:19. > :10:24.affected by this in the region, including Turkey? We welcome the

:10:25. > :10:30.fact that people are working together to try to find a solution,

:10:31. > :10:33.rather than individual solutions to what is clearly a collective

:10:34. > :10:38.challenge. We also need to recognise that the language we use reflects

:10:39. > :10:42.that we are talking about fellow human beings in the most difficult

:10:43. > :10:48.of circumstances. Does the Minister then agree with me that it was

:10:49. > :10:53.deeply irresponsible of the Prime Minister to refer to people who are

:10:54. > :10:57.frightened, in difficult situations, women, children, as a bunch of

:10:58. > :11:08.migrants was to mark does the Minister agree that the only way to

:11:09. > :11:13.prevent this flow of refugees is to stop because of it, the slaughter of

:11:14. > :11:19.people in their own country? The EU have said they agree the broadband

:11:20. > :11:23.support of a plan to ease the migration crisis, so can the migrant

:11:24. > :11:32.-- canny Minister tell us how many of the promised 12 thousand --

:11:33. > :11:44.20,000 refugees we have settled? Can he set out how the money offered

:11:45. > :11:51.will be spent, how will he ensure it will be spent on what is intended

:11:52. > :11:57.and how? Does the Minister agree that this is why we need to work

:11:58. > :12:04.together internationally, rather than walking away from our shared

:12:05. > :12:09.interests and responsibilities? Can I start by agreeing with the

:12:10. > :12:13.honourable lady that it is in this country's interests and in every

:12:14. > :12:19.European country's interests that we put together a determined and

:12:20. > :12:26.coherent response to this crisis. I would agree with her, too, that no

:12:27. > :12:34.single European country can solve this human tragedy and the wicked

:12:35. > :12:41.work of the people traffickers exploiting tragedy on our own. She

:12:42. > :12:46.asked me about the ceasefire in season -- in Syria. The latest

:12:47. > :12:51.information we have is that it is holding but it is not holding

:12:52. > :12:54.perfectly. I don't think that should come as a surprise to any member of

:12:55. > :13:00.the House. The Prime Minister took part with other European leaders in

:13:01. > :13:08.a conference call with President Putin a feud a 's ago to take stock

:13:09. > :13:13.of how things looked and to urge President Putin to urge -- to work

:13:14. > :13:18.towards a political settlement and a transition in Syria which we

:13:19. > :13:24.continue to believe represents, long-term, the best answer to try to

:13:25. > :13:30.rebuild that country to give people a safe and secure life there. She

:13:31. > :13:40.asked me about how the business model of the people traffickers was

:13:41. > :13:45.going to be harmed by the decisions last week. One of the key elements

:13:46. > :13:50.of the deal, and I emphasise again that this has yet to be finalised,

:13:51. > :13:58.one of the key elements would be that somebody who went in a boat and

:13:59. > :14:02.was then intercepted or was processed, having reached one of the

:14:03. > :14:09.Greek islands, would face being sent back to Turkey and then being put to

:14:10. > :14:16.the back of the queue as far as a legal resettlement wheat was

:14:17. > :14:19.concerned, so the incentive for people to entrust their safety to

:14:20. > :14:29.the people carriers would be removed. She asked me about the

:14:30. > :14:32.number of arrival -- arrivals in this country under the Syrian

:14:33. > :14:41.refugee resettlement scheme. It is now running at over 1000. It is

:14:42. > :14:46.going on track, much as we had planned, and I ought to recognise

:14:47. > :14:48.the role that both the devolved administrations and local

:14:49. > :14:55.authorities of all political colours have played in trying to make this

:14:56. > :14:59.successful. They are trying to make it as easy a process as it is

:15:00. > :15:06.possible to be for the people we are trying to help. My honourable friend

:15:07. > :15:10.correctly said there is no obligation on the United Kingdom to

:15:11. > :15:14.take in extra migrants in this deal. Will he confirm that any of the 1

:15:15. > :15:18.million migrants who have come to Europe in the last year and be

:15:19. > :15:26.million who are expected this year, once they are given citizenship,

:15:27. > :15:33.will all have the right to come to these the UK so long as we arrive --

:15:34. > :15:39.we remain in Europe? Because we are outside Schengen, we impose border

:15:40. > :15:46.checks on everyone, including EU citizens, and we have the right to

:15:47. > :15:55.tighten them back when we think their presence in the United Kingdom

:15:56. > :16:02.might impact on our safety. Those who have been granted refugee status

:16:03. > :16:08.in Europe, have been granted it in Germany, for those trying to get

:16:09. > :16:14.there, the proportion of refugees who actually get German citizenship

:16:15. > :16:19.is only 2.2% of all refugees. That is because the German citizenship

:16:20. > :16:26.procedure is so rigorous. It takes eight to ten years before somebody

:16:27. > :16:30.can get German citizenship. To do that, you have to do have a

:16:31. > :16:35.completely clean criminal record, show you have an independent source

:16:36. > :16:38.of income and you have to pass an integration test including

:16:39. > :16:43.demonstrating a knowledge of German. So I think some of the fears which

:16:44. > :16:51.have been expressed are rather exaggerated given the reality of the

:16:52. > :16:52.German situation. We share the deep concerns expressed by the United

:16:53. > :17:09.Nations that these oppose laws would alternate the Syrians right to

:17:10. > :17:21.protection under international law. With this in mind, what advice has

:17:22. > :17:26.the Minister received on this issue? Can he set up transparency around

:17:27. > :17:33.the 3 billion euros set to be given to Turkey around the end of March'

:17:34. > :17:37.and lastly, what can he do to encourage human rights in Turkey and

:17:38. > :17:45.hold the Prime Minister to account against his actions against his own

:17:46. > :17:49.citizens is to mark on the final point, we speak all the time to

:17:50. > :17:55.Turkish colleagues about human rights and rule of law matters and,

:17:56. > :18:00.as I said earlier, we believe that the EU accession process,

:18:01. > :18:06.particularly chapters 23 and 24, can be opened to provide the best means

:18:07. > :18:12.for seeking those reforms in Turkey, which I think has support on all

:18:13. > :18:15.sides of this House. The statement of the heads of state and Government

:18:16. > :18:19.says in terms that all these arrangements must be done in a way

:18:20. > :18:24.that complies with international law, so that is something which

:18:25. > :18:30.every Government has taken on board. I don't think we should forget

:18:31. > :18:36.either that Turkey has provided refuge to about 2.6 million people

:18:37. > :18:40.who have fled from Syria. A large number of those people have been

:18:41. > :18:49.living in safety in UN administered camps inside Turkey for many months

:18:50. > :18:56.contact -- many months, sometimes years, so let us not forget to

:18:57. > :19:03.acknowledge the hospitality that the Turkish Government and ordinary

:19:04. > :19:16.people of Turkey have shown. This simply serves to demonstrate that

:19:17. > :19:24.this is proof that you has agreed to encourage the accession of Turkey

:19:25. > :19:29.into the EU. Does the Minister agree this is not right with the human

:19:30. > :19:38.rights situation as it is, not least for their Kurdish population? We

:19:39. > :19:46.would hope that as soon as possible the peace process with the Turkish

:19:47. > :19:53.Kurds would begin again, which appeared to be making progress up to

:19:54. > :19:57.six months again. On my honourable friend's other point, as I have said

:19:58. > :20:02.before, there has been no agreement yet as to whether or not particular

:20:03. > :20:09.chapters or any number of chapters of the accession negotiation should

:20:10. > :20:13.be opened. This is something which the heads of Government are going to

:20:14. > :20:20.return to next week at the European Council and they would have to be --

:20:21. > :20:26.there would have to be unanimous agreement to each and every decision

:20:27. > :20:32.to open a new chapter or two agree that progress had been made on any

:20:33. > :20:41.element of Turkey's accession negotiation. This is not a swift

:20:42. > :20:46.process. Under this deal, Turkey has received 3 billion euros. It has

:20:47. > :20:52.asked for a further 3 billion euros by the end of 2018. When will those

:20:53. > :20:58.negotiations start and, given that 90% of those entering beat you

:20:59. > :21:05.illegally do so with the assistance of criminal gangs, why has the Prime

:21:06. > :21:11.Minister and the EU not ensured that Turkey would be paid on the

:21:12. > :21:17.performance basis for the number of people traffickers that they bring

:21:18. > :21:20.to justice? People traffickers need to be brought to justice in

:21:21. > :21:27.whichever jurisdiction they opposite -- they operate. It is often the

:21:28. > :21:33.case that the people committing the crimes, involved in trafficking at

:21:34. > :21:36.the sharp end, are not the people at the top of these organisations. As

:21:37. > :21:41.the right honourable gentleman knows, we are talking about their

:21:42. > :21:46.re-professional, very well organised and well funded international

:21:47. > :21:50.criminal networks who often indulge in drug smuggling as well as in

:21:51. > :21:55.people smuggling. These are transnational companies engaged in

:21:56. > :22:02.criminal enterprise. There has been no agreement yet on anything going

:22:03. > :22:08.beyond the 3 billion euros refugee facility that was agreed in November

:22:09. > :22:15.last year. Since that agreement, Turkey has taken a number of steps

:22:16. > :22:20.to help refugees from Syria, for example by making it possible for

:22:21. > :22:26.them to get legitimate work with in Turkey and opening up permit

:22:27. > :22:32.arrangements for them. Everyone in this House will have heard some

:22:33. > :22:37.disturbing reports recently of a newspaper office in Turkey being

:22:38. > :22:40.closed down for publishing critical commentary about the Turkish

:22:41. > :22:45.Government. Could the Secretary of State please inform the House, do

:22:46. > :22:49.member states of the European Union value ever closer union and freedom

:22:50. > :22:56.of movement over and above the rights to freedom of speech of the

:22:57. > :23:00.individual? The EU and the United Kingdom Government made very clear

:23:01. > :23:06.last week that we continue to see freedom of the press, freedom of

:23:07. > :23:12.expression in the media, as a cornerstone of the values that we

:23:13. > :23:17.champion at international level. Adherence to those principles is

:23:18. > :23:23.written into the European treaties and no country that fails to

:23:24. > :23:32.subscribe to those can expect to receive EU membership. The principle

:23:33. > :23:36.of stopping the dangerous smuggler routes and providing instead safe,

:23:37. > :23:44.legal routes to Sanctuary is clearly a sensible one. He will know there

:23:45. > :23:47.are a series of legal, practical and physical problems with regards to

:23:48. > :23:52.that and whilst he makes clear that there will be no changes to Turkish

:23:53. > :23:57.these arrangements for Britain, I suspect in many other areas they

:23:58. > :24:02.will be changes in the week ahead. Can he tell me whether the British

:24:03. > :24:08.Government has raised the plight of Afghan and Iraqi refugees, it in

:24:09. > :24:18.particular we know that around half of solo children who claimed asylum

:24:19. > :24:23.in January were from Afghanistan. What will the situation be for them?

:24:24. > :24:28.The honourable lady makes a reasonable point on the position of

:24:29. > :24:36.people who have come from other war-torn countries, as that needs to

:24:37. > :24:43.be considered very seriously. We do need, at all times, to bear in mind

:24:44. > :24:46.the basic principles of the 1951 UN Convention on refugees, which are

:24:47. > :24:52.first that to get refugee status you have do show that you have a well

:24:53. > :24:57.founded fear of persecution and, second, there is an expectation that

:24:58. > :25:00.when somebody please, they should seek and apply for refugee status in

:25:01. > :25:07.the first safe country that they reach and not try to pick and

:25:08. > :25:07.choose, perhaps at the behest of people traffickers, various

:25:08. > :25:16.countries. May I press my right honourable

:25:17. > :25:23.friend further on human rights and rule of law abuses in Turkey, in

:25:24. > :25:31.relation to the EU Turkey agreement? Even though last year because I

:25:32. > :25:44.provided him with a copy, Lord Woolf, and Sarah Pailin wrote a

:25:45. > :25:52.report, and the right honourable gentleman and I wrote about the

:25:53. > :26:01.human rights abuses carried out by the Turkish government. May I ask

:26:02. > :26:05.the Minister to firm up attitudes towards Turkish admission? While

:26:06. > :26:11.these abuses continue, there should be no question about them joining.

:26:12. > :26:17.Even though we need Turkey as a member of Nato, and the agreement

:26:18. > :26:23.with the migration problem? We certainly continue to regard their

:26:24. > :26:28.adherence to principles of human rights, freedom of expression, and

:26:29. > :26:35.belief, and so on, as aims that should be at the heart of the reform

:26:36. > :26:41.work of any country seeking to join the European Union fools of what I

:26:42. > :26:49.put in my right honourable friend, the evidence of other accession

:26:50. > :26:56.negotiations, is that it is possible to secure much swifter and more

:26:57. > :27:02.significant progress towards those reforms that we all want to see when

:27:03. > :27:09.you sit down and start working on the details benchmarks, and progress

:27:10. > :27:17.measurements in those chapters of an EU accession, dealing specifically

:27:18. > :27:21.with the rule of law matters. The amount of money given by the EU to

:27:22. > :27:26.Turkey is fully justified, and hopefully more will come, for the

:27:27. > :27:32.reasons the Minister has explained. Would he accept, arising from

:27:33. > :27:38.previous questions, over a period of time the president of Turkey has

:27:39. > :27:43.done his best to undermine democratic rights in that country?

:27:44. > :27:49.Outright intimidation of critics? A newspaper taking over last week by

:27:50. > :27:57.his henchmen, becoming a mouthpiece for the regime? More recently than

:27:58. > :28:01.that, a news agency. Does the Minister realise, there can be no

:28:02. > :28:05.question of Turkey becoming in any way associated with the EU while

:28:06. > :28:10.this intimidation of critics continues? Indeed the president of

:28:11. > :28:19.Turkey gives a very good example of trying to follow Putin. As I've said

:28:20. > :28:25.before, Mr Speaker, we continue to talk frequently with Turkish

:28:26. > :28:29.officials and Turkish ministers at all levels about the importance we

:28:30. > :28:34.ascribe the human rights, the rule of law, and freedom of expression.

:28:35. > :28:42.That will continue to be a core element of our dialogue with Turkey.

:28:43. > :28:51.Further to the question put to my honourable friend, by the honourable

:28:52. > :28:58.member, I'm not clear what the government's position on the

:28:59. > :29:02.legality of this mass transfer of intercepted migrants back to Turkey

:29:03. > :29:10.is. What instructions are being given to the tax -- captain of the

:29:11. > :29:16.Royal Fleet boats, when they intercept the baiter migrants. As

:29:17. > :29:21.the captain be authorised to take those people back to Turkey? Will

:29:22. > :29:27.they be accepted? How does that fit made by the comments -- fit with the

:29:28. > :29:36.comments made by the UNHCR last night? I'm not sure if my honourable

:29:37. > :29:37.friend was in the House for the statement my right honourable

:29:38. > :29:43.friend, the Secretary of State for Defence made on Monday about the

:29:44. > :29:49.Naval operation. De Nadai operation is in gauge is in initial

:29:50. > :29:58.reconnaissance and surveillance of illegal crossings. They pass that

:29:59. > :30:02.information the Turkish authorities at the Turkey censor the Coast Guard

:30:03. > :30:09.can carry at intersections. Not work done by Navy vessels. Anyone

:30:10. > :30:14.watching the refugees and the scenes across Europe over the past year

:30:15. > :30:21.will know we simply could not carry on as we were. This requires us to

:30:22. > :30:24.act in concert with others, in terms of the consequences of what is

:30:25. > :30:31.happening, and the causes rooted in war and conflict. Can I therefore

:30:32. > :30:35.agree with the Minister, no individual country can deal with

:30:36. > :30:41.these consequences alone. Can I urge him to reject any approach that says

:30:42. > :30:47.Britain's answer should be to pay nothing, do nothing and fill up the

:30:48. > :30:54.drawbridge? I think this country has a long and proud tradition, both of

:30:55. > :31:01.seeking to help people who are in dire need, wherever in the world

:31:02. > :31:10.they are, but also seeking to build political stability in areas that

:31:11. > :31:15.are in what I may describe as our own neighbourhood. I think there

:31:16. > :31:22.have been plenty of examples in our history, and European history, where

:31:23. > :31:28.the failure to grip problems decisively has led to worse

:31:29. > :31:31.conflict, and worse human suffering. And worse political problems for

:31:32. > :31:38.European governments that have been taken earlier. Can I press my

:31:39. > :31:43.honourable friend further on the legality of this deal? As I

:31:44. > :31:51.understand it the UN's top official on refugees has thrown for expressed

:31:52. > :31:56.real concern about an arrangement that involves a blanket return of

:31:57. > :32:01.anyone from one country to another. What I'm particularly concerned

:32:02. > :32:05.about is that this looks as if the EE is trading one set of refugees in

:32:06. > :32:10.Greece for another set of refugees in Turkey. I cannot see where the

:32:11. > :32:15.guarantee is in this arrangement that they will be any drop-off in

:32:16. > :32:21.numbers. I am beginning to find this arrangement very, very worrying. As

:32:22. > :32:29.I said earlier, Mr Speaker, one of the elements of this agreement, if

:32:30. > :32:34.it can be finalised next week, will be, for the first time, we will be

:32:35. > :32:41.breaking the link between people getting into a boat, or people being

:32:42. > :32:46.rescued from a boat in the Aegean Sea, and gaining rights to go into a

:32:47. > :32:52.resettlement process and relocation process inside the European Union.

:32:53. > :33:00.Instead they will be an agreed legal route for people to go from the

:33:01. > :33:05.camps into European countries. That will provide a very serious

:33:06. > :33:08.disincentive for people to place themselves in the roofless and

:33:09. > :33:14.exploitative hands of the people traffickers. On the matter of

:33:15. > :33:20.legality, the statement of the heads of state governments there is in

:33:21. > :33:25.terms, whatever arrangement they may reach next week should be in

:33:26. > :33:32.accordance with both European and international law. I wish to

:33:33. > :33:37.associate the Liberal Democrats with the comments on free speech. Also

:33:38. > :33:43.the comments made in regards to be very troubling 141 refugee

:33:44. > :33:49.agreement, raising both practical and moral concerns. The Minister is

:33:50. > :33:53.a very honourable man, surely cannot be comfortable with an agreement

:33:54. > :34:00.that requires refugees to risk their lives travelling to the EE you, in

:34:01. > :34:09.return for another refugee only from Syria to get safe passage. That is

:34:10. > :34:13.entirely unacceptable. The purpose we have is to put in place a set of

:34:14. > :34:18.arrangements which remove the incentives for people to trust their

:34:19. > :34:24.safety to the people traffickers. Unless we are able to do that, the

:34:25. > :34:28.risk is exactly that the flow of people, and the appalling casualties

:34:29. > :34:38.resulting from that flow of people will continue. As always, the

:34:39. > :34:42.Minister is putting in a very skilful performance. The matters as

:34:43. > :34:50.to whether Turkey joining the EU is very important. Once again the

:34:51. > :34:56.Foreign Secretary has not answered one urgent question recently. We

:34:57. > :35:03.would like to see him more. The question of Turkey joining the EE

:35:04. > :35:06.you, it is Her Majesty's considered opinion that Turkey should not be a

:35:07. > :35:10.member of the EE. We have been blackmailed into progressing this.

:35:11. > :35:15.Given the closure of the main opposition paper, can the Minister

:35:16. > :35:20.confirm as a matter of fact, once Turkey joining the EU, because the

:35:21. > :35:27.EE believes saved passionately in the free movement of people. All 77

:35:28. > :35:31.million Turkish people will be to come and live there and work there

:35:32. > :35:36.without any check at all, and there's nothing we can do about it.

:35:37. > :35:42.As I said in some of my earlier remarks, we are not yet at the point

:35:43. > :35:47.where anything has been finally agreed. My right honourable friend

:35:48. > :35:53.the Prime Minister will make a statement after next week's European

:35:54. > :35:57.Council. The support for Turkey eventually to join the European

:35:58. > :36:01.Union is an objective that has been shared by Conservative and Labour

:36:02. > :36:11.governments since before I was in the House of Commons. My honourable

:36:12. > :36:16.friend is not correct to say this will be rushed, certainly not the

:36:17. > :36:21.history of previous accession negotiations, they take many years,

:36:22. > :36:25.and there is a right of veto for every member state over every single

:36:26. > :36:31.decision associated with an accession process. One thing that

:36:32. > :36:37.has to be sorted out, during accession negotiations, what the

:36:38. > :36:43.arrangements of movement will be. As the Prime Minister has said on many

:36:44. > :36:47.occasions, the United Kingdom will not agree to any further members of

:36:48. > :36:51.the European Union and so we have new and different arrangements in

:36:52. > :36:59.place that ensure that a new member joining the EE cannot again leads to

:37:00. > :37:09.the very large migratory flows we saw after 2004. Turkey has indicated

:37:10. > :37:13.it needs ?6 billion to address the problems of your Fugees. It is much

:37:14. > :37:18.better to address the crisis where it begins. Can the Minister say what

:37:19. > :37:22.discussions he has had with the Turkish catchment to ensure the

:37:23. > :37:28.money is sent to the places it is needed most. And those with

:37:29. > :37:36.Christian and other beliefs perceive it as well? The money that has been

:37:37. > :37:42.assigned, both in our bilateral spending, and at EU level is going

:37:43. > :37:48.to people in need in Turkey, and in the surroundings and eight. There is

:37:49. > :37:54.a separate facility to give humanitarian support to refugees and

:37:55. > :37:57.asylum seekers in Greece, that the large sums of money I have been

:37:58. > :38:01.talking about are being spent in Turkey. The answer to the honourable

:38:02. > :38:08.gentleman, both the United Kingdom and the European Union disperses the

:38:09. > :38:13.money very largely through the United Nations relief agents these,

:38:14. > :38:19.such as Unicef, and through the major reputable non-governmental

:38:20. > :38:28.humanitarian relief organisations, so it can help those in need, and we

:38:29. > :38:34.know it is going there. Those of us in favour of leaving the European

:38:35. > :38:41.Union gives certainty as what that 12 lookalike. The Minister's speech

:38:42. > :38:46.is full of caveats as to what may or may not happen. Does he accept that

:38:47. > :38:51.is what in looks like for those of us concerned of human rights issues?

:38:52. > :38:57.And the things that will come with the Turkish accession? There can be

:38:58. > :39:00.no certainty that the fear factor staying in, it is not safe for to

:39:01. > :39:14.stay in rather than leave? The reason that I am caveat in some

:39:15. > :39:17.of what I am saying is the very reason that there was negotiation at

:39:18. > :39:23.the summit on Sunday but there has not been a final agreement. There

:39:24. > :39:26.will be an effort to reach final agreement next week and then my

:39:27. > :39:30.honourable friend will be able to question the pie minister about the

:39:31. > :39:36.detail of that. I would simply say to her, she and I differ on the

:39:37. > :39:42.issue of EU membership, but habit of working together with in

:39:43. > :39:47.Europe to solve foreign policy problems which cannot be met by any

:39:48. > :39:53.one individual country on its own, not even the biggest or most

:39:54. > :40:00.influential, is a sign of health and a good reason for us to remain

:40:01. > :40:04.members of that organisation. Turkey has a pivotal position in all of

:40:05. > :40:10.this. It could make the move is to make sure we have safe havens in

:40:11. > :40:14.Syria but it equally has an important role in stopping the

:40:15. > :40:17.people traffickers. Can I ask the Minister whether the British

:40:18. > :40:20.Government has seen plans from the Turkish Government on how they

:40:21. > :40:30.intend to stop the people traffickers? There are talks going

:40:31. > :40:36.on between our enforcement agencies, between Europol and their Turkish

:40:37. > :40:40.counterparts, I think you will understand why I do not want to go

:40:41. > :40:49.into detail about those. His point about safe havens, those are a

:40:50. > :40:56.possibility. That possibility was discussed at the new Turkey summit

:40:57. > :41:00.but there are many political, legal and military complications to that

:41:01. > :41:10.particular step. We haven't ruled it out but there is no agreement on

:41:11. > :41:14.that as yet. Surely the most important thing in all of this is to

:41:15. > :41:18.deal with the problem at source, namely Syria? So what discussions

:41:19. > :41:23.were had with the Turks and the EU as to how to put more pressure on

:41:24. > :41:28.the parties in the Geneva process to make sure we have a lasting peace

:41:29. > :41:35.agreement in Syria? Those discussions did take place within

:41:36. > :41:39.the summit, although the purpose of the summit was to try to hammer out

:41:40. > :41:46.a way forward in dealing with the refugee crisis that is causing such

:41:47. > :41:50.difficulties, both to Turkey and to the European Union. I can assure my

:41:51. > :41:55.honourable friend that the British Government and other European

:41:56. > :41:59.governments are in constant contact with our Turkish counterparts about

:42:00. > :42:08.how best to bring an end to the appalling conflict inside Syria. The

:42:09. > :42:15.Minister must recognise that an act of humanitarian response must

:42:16. > :42:25.involve more than simply asking Turkey to facilitate the mass

:42:26. > :42:31.expulsion under a barter scheme of different classes of refugees. Will

:42:32. > :42:37.they properly address next week the concerns about whether or not this

:42:38. > :42:44.scheme violates international law on human rights? Yes and that is why

:42:45. > :42:48.the statement issued after Monday's summit said explicitly that the

:42:49. > :43:00.agreement we were seeking had to comply with international law. This

:43:01. > :43:05.agreement is related to a wider issue of underfunding of refugee

:43:06. > :43:09.camps across the Middle East by the international community. What will

:43:10. > :43:15.be governed do to reinforce the message from the United Nations that

:43:16. > :43:19.many of our international partners, not the UK, we have done our fair

:43:20. > :43:27.share, many of our international parties -- partners are not stepping

:43:28. > :43:33.up to do their fair share? My honourable friend makes a very fair

:43:34. > :43:39.point. I think we can trace the surge in movement from Turkey into

:43:40. > :43:47.Europe last summer in large part due to the decision the UN had to take

:43:48. > :43:51.to cut food rations and restrict educational possibilities inside the

:43:52. > :43:54.camps, leaving more people to feel they had no option but to place

:43:55. > :44:00.themselves in the hands of people traffickers. My honourable friend

:44:01. > :44:07.will, I think, know that the United Kingdom co-hosted a Syria donors

:44:08. > :44:11.conference in London just a few weeks ago and that produced pledges

:44:12. > :44:16.from the international community of more than ?10 billion. That is a

:44:17. > :44:19.welcome step forward but I will be the first to say we now have do

:44:20. > :44:29.ensure that those pledges are turned into real money going to help the

:44:30. > :44:33.people who are in desperate need. I absolutely agree that Turkey's

:44:34. > :44:39.crucial partner in the efforts to resolve the situation in Syria and

:44:40. > :44:44.that shall we should be doing more ourselves in supporting Turkey in

:44:45. > :44:48.helping with the migrant crisis but can I tell the Minister that the

:44:49. > :44:55.largest number of UK citizens of Turkish origin live in North London

:44:56. > :45:00.and Enfield in particular. The vast majority of Kurdish and they are

:45:01. > :45:04.concerned about what is happening in Turkey in terms of the president

:45:05. > :45:10.refusing to acknowledge the decision of the Constitution, the

:45:11. > :45:13.imprisonment of over 30 journalists, curfews and the restriction on

:45:14. > :45:17.freedom of speech and the death of many innocent people who are their

:45:18. > :45:23.friends and relatives. Although the EU may be the context of the

:45:24. > :45:31.accession process in which these issues can be resolved, can the

:45:32. > :45:37.Minister insurance these issues will be raised with the president and

:45:38. > :45:43.will not be brushed aside? Certainly as far as the UK is concerned, we

:45:44. > :45:45.raised the sort of concerns the honourable lady has expressed in our

:45:46. > :45:53.dialogue with the Turkish Government at every level. Recognising at the

:45:54. > :45:58.same time that Turkey is in a better place today than it was under

:45:59. > :46:09.military rule, but we want to see our Turkish ally move with greater

:46:10. > :46:16.energy towards that full recognition of the rule of law and human rights

:46:17. > :46:26.that the Turkish Government says that they remain committed to. It is

:46:27. > :46:34.very good for me to be able to call the honourable gentleman today. Mr

:46:35. > :46:39.Bernard Jenkin. Thank you for that. May I put it to my honourable friend

:46:40. > :46:45.that actually this deal is a rather grubby one? We all know that the

:46:46. > :46:49.Government and the whole of the European Union is desperate to be

:46:50. > :46:54.seen to be resolving this migration crisis, but this is a self

:46:55. > :47:03.restricted -- a self-inflicted crisis in some way because the

:47:04. > :47:08.Schengen arrangement is an invitation to those to get into

:47:09. > :47:17.Europe to try to travel anywhere, so they are doing a very grubby deal

:47:18. > :47:22.with a country with a difficult human rights record in order to send

:47:23. > :47:27.these refugees back to their country of origin. Can I draw his attention

:47:28. > :47:37.to what we have given up in this agreement? It says that we are going

:47:38. > :47:41.to accelerate the these are situation with all member states. I

:47:42. > :47:47.don't doubt his sincerity that he intends that only two applied to the

:47:48. > :47:51.Schengen area. Will he take care that it does only apply to the

:47:52. > :48:03.Schengen area in any text drafting of this agreement next week? The

:48:04. > :48:07.first thing is to reiterate again that as yet there has been no deal.

:48:08. > :48:13.That is a matter for discussions between now and next week European

:48:14. > :48:17.-- next week's European Council. I'm sure my honourable friend has

:48:18. > :48:21.studied the treaty is intensely, in which case he will know that a

:48:22. > :48:27.measure affecting users or migration has to be brought forward on a

:48:28. > :48:34.treaty -based, where the United Kingdom is not bound, where the

:48:35. > :48:38.United Kingdom can choose whether or not to opt in. The Prime Minister

:48:39. > :48:43.has made it very clear that we are not going to participate in Beazer

:48:44. > :48:49.liberalisation with Turkey. That is a sovereign decision for us to take

:48:50. > :48:56.-- Visa liberalisation. That is recognised in European treaties. I

:48:57. > :49:00.think most reasonable people would support a mechanism put in place to

:49:01. > :49:03.stop the people trafficking routes and the dangerous routes across the

:49:04. > :49:09.Mediterranean. But can I ask the Minister, what assessment will be

:49:10. > :49:14.Government make when this mechanism is in place to ensure it is

:49:15. > :49:18.operating in the way he envisages it operating but also that the money

:49:19. > :49:24.reaches the people precisely it once -- we wanted to reach, the refugees?

:49:25. > :49:33.The honourable gentleman makes a very fair point and monitoring the

:49:34. > :49:36.review mechanisms must be part of any eventual agreement and that is

:49:37. > :49:47.the sort of thing officials will be working on in the week to come. I

:49:48. > :49:55.share the concern for the thorough Terry and approach of the president.

:49:56. > :50:04.-- the authoritarian approach of the president. We know there is a great

:50:05. > :50:10.burden on the refugees and the standard of their camps is better

:50:11. > :50:25.than anywhere in Europe, not least of all France. Can he confirm that

:50:26. > :50:32.these negotiations will not renege on the issue of the Cyprus problem?

:50:33. > :50:40.My honourable friend hints at one of the issues that has caused the

:50:41. > :50:47.stalling of the process of accession negotiation in recent years. That is

:50:48. > :50:53.something that, again, is going to need to be thought about and talked

:50:54. > :50:58.about in the days before next week's European Council meeting. There has

:50:59. > :51:07.been no agreement as yet on opening any accession chapter. Isn't the

:51:08. > :51:12.logic of the proposal that if Turkey successfully stops the crossings,

:51:13. > :51:17.then no refugees are resettled from Turkey? Isn't that a greater

:51:18. > :51:21.incentive than ever for Turkey to waive people onto the boats and

:51:22. > :51:27.isn't it clearer than ever the better solution is to offer safer

:51:28. > :51:33.routes? That is not the nature of the discussion that we are having

:51:34. > :51:36.with Turkey. I think it is slightly simplistic. I don't want to be

:51:37. > :51:42.unkind, but it is slightly simplistic to think that Turkey can

:51:43. > :51:45.simply switch the and off as regards flows of people and the activities

:51:46. > :51:53.of people traffickers, particularly when you look at the sea crossing to

:51:54. > :51:59.the island of Samos. Only 1600 metres separate the Turkish and the

:52:00. > :52:03.Greek coast. Once a dinghy has gone 800 metres, they are in Greek

:52:04. > :52:08.territorial waters. There was a clear commitment on Monday by both

:52:09. > :52:12.the pro Minister of Turkey and EU leaders to find a way forward and a

:52:13. > :52:17.recognition that it was in the interest of both EU countries and

:52:18. > :52:26.Turkey itself that this issue should be settled I a coherent,

:52:27. > :52:34.well-planned strategy outlined in the paper issued. Is it not the case

:52:35. > :52:39.that one of the biggest problems facing Turkey is the situation in

:52:40. > :52:45.Syria? Is it not the case that the Russian action in Syria has produced

:52:46. > :52:51.a large new wage of refugees -- wave of refugees leaving that area? I

:52:52. > :52:57.could emphasise what my right honourable friend said on the 7th of

:52:58. > :53:08.March, emphasising that a lot of the money that we are putting in, and

:53:09. > :53:13.the comments are right about Turkey's human rights issue, but do

:53:14. > :53:19.we not have more power being in the EU than being on the outside carping

:53:20. > :53:23.about it? I agree that if we are not at the table, we will not be able to

:53:24. > :53:32.shape or influence those decisions in anyway. We really do have an

:53:33. > :53:40.excellent Minister for direct, with a great record over the years and I

:53:41. > :53:46.hope he is there after the 23rd of June and will negotiate our exit

:53:47. > :53:51.from the EU. Can I ask him to day that in the question of certainty,

:53:52. > :53:54.the British people can only be certain that 77 million Turkish

:53:55. > :54:00.citizens won't have the right to come to this country for certainty?

:54:01. > :54:02.The only way we will get certainty is if we come out of the European

:54:03. > :54:13.Union. Must urge my honourable friend to

:54:14. > :54:17.study the European treaties and particularly the European

:54:18. > :54:24.directives. The treaties are quite clear. Each and every aspect of

:54:25. > :54:31.accession negotiations, including negotiations for controls on

:54:32. > :54:36.migration must be agreed in unanimity. Every state including the

:54:37. > :54:43.UK has a veto on every aspect of an accession negotiation. I think he's

:54:44. > :54:50.making the mistake in imagining that things will happen in the way he

:54:51. > :54:58.describes. Can the Minister confirm the majority of those coming into

:54:59. > :55:02.Europe from Turkey are men. The majority come from countries other

:55:03. > :55:07.than Syria which have a very poor human rights record in regards to

:55:08. > :55:11.women. How can we be sure the mass migration taking place at the moment

:55:12. > :55:21.will not impact on women's right, very hard-fought four on this

:55:22. > :55:32.continent? We have a genuine humanitarian crisis in Syria. It is

:55:33. > :55:35.now being exploited by people traffickers, who on this point my

:55:36. > :55:45.honourable friend is correct, trying to encourage people of other

:55:46. > :55:49.nationalities to come in and try and claim refugee status on the back of

:55:50. > :55:57.genuine refugee claims and genuine refugee needs. That reinforces the

:55:58. > :56:04.importance of having a robust system for processing individual claims, so

:56:05. > :56:08.we can distinguish between people who have a well founded fear of

:56:09. > :56:16.persecution, and people trying to move for economic reasons. The

:56:17. > :56:20.reason why the United Kingdom is giving help is to strengthen the

:56:21. > :56:28.capacity of the Greek system in particular to carry out those

:56:29. > :56:33.processing and distinguishing between genuine refugees and those

:56:34. > :56:38.trying to move for other reasons. During the negotiations on the EE

:56:39. > :56:43.Turkey agreement, can my right honourable friend tell the House if

:56:44. > :56:54.there have been discussions raised by Nato generals about Russia and

:56:55. > :57:01.Syrian weaponisation of migration? A truly disgusting tactic. I think

:57:02. > :57:09.what has been in everybody's mind is the fact that the bombing of

:57:10. > :57:16.civilians by the Assad regime, with Russian support, in areas like

:57:17. > :57:21.Aleppo, it is leading to the movement to even greater numbers of

:57:22. > :57:28.people, initially into Turkey and 11 on, then across the GMC, to Europe.

:57:29. > :57:31.That reinforces the need for us to turn this fragile cessation of

:57:32. > :57:36.violence into a genuine peace process inside Syria, and political

:57:37. > :57:43.transition offering the hype of rebuilding the country. I am reading

:57:44. > :57:47.the statement clearly, the Turkish have some very good negotiators.

:57:48. > :57:53.With the Minister, who has already outlined that our financial

:57:54. > :58:02.contribution is 250 euros to the first 3 billion. There will be an

:58:03. > :58:08.additional funding, we still be making a contribution to its? There

:58:09. > :58:16.is no formal proposal tabled as of yet. The United Kingdom contributes

:58:17. > :58:23.to EU measures agreed collectively by the EU. We have also paid

:58:24. > :58:30.significantly more out in terms of our bilateral contributions to the

:58:31. > :58:33.needs of refugees in Syria, and other countries in the

:58:34. > :58:39.neighbourhood. I don't think we should be in the least ashamed of

:58:40. > :58:43.this country's role in helping those people, who have been in desperate

:58:44. > :58:49.need. One of the reasons I have been so proud to support this

:58:50. > :58:53.government's commitment to the 0.7 target, it gives us the resources

:58:54. > :59:00.and flexibility to respond to humanitarian crises speedily,

:59:01. > :59:03.wherever they happen to be. Am I right in assuming that the captain

:59:04. > :59:19.of the Royal Fleet auxiliary Mountsbay is able to

:59:20. > :59:24.report the activities of people smugglers between Turkey and Greece.

:59:25. > :59:27.To pick up people in distress, but not to stop people smugglers going

:59:28. > :59:34.and not wishing to be picked up? Could I asked the Minister why that

:59:35. > :59:40.is the case? More to the point, if those rules pertaining, what is

:59:41. > :59:50.happening on the eastern seaboard of Turkey, which we are subsidising, by

:59:51. > :59:58.the Turkish security forces stopping people smuggler vessels setting out

:59:59. > :00:04.to Greece? Turkey does very large proportion of its coastguard

:00:05. > :00:09.resource to the Aegean Sea already. For reasons I gave and answered to

:00:10. > :00:13.an earlier question, intercepting every single one of the small boats

:00:14. > :00:18.making a relatively short crossing to where the Greek islands is not as

:00:19. > :00:23.straightforward as is sometimes suggested. I would refer my

:00:24. > :00:29.honourable friend for greater detail to the statement my right honourable

:00:30. > :00:34.friend the Secretary of State for Defence gate of the House on Monday.

:00:35. > :00:40.The native activity is to provide monitoring, and reconnaissance to

:00:41. > :00:50.both Turkish and Greek coastguard, and the EU expedition, to disrupt

:00:51. > :00:54.the migrant boat. Interested to hear the Minister confirm that Britain

:00:55. > :00:59.would not be required to be part of the Visa waiver arrangements, given

:01:00. > :01:02.we are not part of Schengen. We are part of another common travel area

:01:03. > :01:08.with the Republic of Ireland. What discussions will become it be having

:01:09. > :01:13.with the Republic of Island in relation to these issues? My

:01:14. > :01:19.honourable friend makes a reasonable point. Ireland is not in Schengen

:01:20. > :01:25.like the United Kingdom, they are not obliged to participate in any

:01:26. > :01:29.Visa liberalisation. We clearly keeping very close contact with the

:01:30. > :01:33.authorities in Dublin, because of the existence of the common travel

:01:34. > :01:39.area, we need to make sure we take account of each other's decisions. I

:01:40. > :01:44.don't anticipate any difficulties. We are normally pretty much alike.

:01:45. > :01:49.He's right to register this is an issue we need to have in mind. The

:01:50. > :01:56.prize for perseverance and patience goes to Mr Marcus Fish. Thank you,

:01:57. > :02:05.Mrs Debaty speaker, does my honourable friend appreciate access

:02:06. > :02:09.to Visas for Turkish citizens may lead

:02:10. > :02:14.immigration into Europe causing misery across the continent? I don't

:02:15. > :02:23.think there is a necessary connection between illegal migration

:02:24. > :02:31.and movement of people legally under some kind of Visa waiver system. The

:02:32. > :02:36.reassurance I can give my honourable friend, the United Kingdom is

:02:37. > :02:44.outside Schengen, we can, we do, and we shall continue to impose whatever

:02:45. > :02:51.Visa requirements, and whatever checks on migration at our ports we

:02:52. > :02:54.consider to be right for the safety, security and well-being of the

:02:55. > :03:06.people of the United Kingdom. Border. Secretary of State for

:03:07. > :03:09.Health, Mr Jeremy Hunt. -- order. Thank you madam Debaty speaker, with

:03:10. > :03:14.permission I would like to inform permission I would like to inform

:03:15. > :03:20.the House on steps the garment is making to secure safer seven-day

:03:21. > :03:23.NHS. We're proud of the NHS, what it stands for the record numbers of

:03:24. > :03:29.doctors and nurses working under this government. We pride comes a

:03:30. > :03:35.simple ambition, that the NHS should offer the safest, higher scare

:03:36. > :03:39.anywhere in the world. Today we are taking important steps to make that

:03:40. > :03:45.possible. In December, following the problems that Southern health, I

:03:46. > :03:51.updated the House improvements that were needed in learning from

:03:52. > :03:54.mistakes. NHS professionals deliver excellent care to 650,000 patients

:03:55. > :03:58.every day. We are determined to support them to improve still

:03:59. > :04:02.further the quality of the care we offer. This government has

:04:03. > :04:07.introduced a tough and transparent inspection regime, new GT of candour

:04:08. > :04:14.to patients and parents who suffer harm. And to save lives lost by

:04:15. > :04:17.sepsis. According to the health foundation, people suffering from

:04:18. > :04:32.preventable diseases has dropped in preventable diseases has dropped in

:04:33. > :04:39.a number of years. Twice we operate on the wrong part of a person's by

:04:40. > :04:44.the week. Pioneering work has estimated that 3.6 of hospital

:04:45. > :04:51.deaths have a 50% or more chance of being avoidable. 150 deaths every

:04:52. > :04:54.week. We should remember that, despite their standards of safety

:04:55. > :04:58.compare well to many other countries. I want England to lead

:04:59. > :05:04.the world in offering the highest possible standards of safety in

:05:05. > :05:08.health care. Today I'm welcoming to London health ministers and safety

:05:09. > :05:14.experts from around the world for the first-ever ministerial level

:05:15. > :05:17.summit on patient safety. I'm co-hosting the summit with the

:05:18. > :05:21.German Health Minister, who will host a follow-up summit in Berlin

:05:22. > :05:26.next year. Other guests included director general of the world health

:05:27. > :05:34.organisation, the Chief Executive of the renowned Virginia Mason Hospital

:05:35. > :05:37.in hospital. Anthony Francis QC. We will discuss many things, but in the

:05:38. > :05:43.end, all the experts agree, no changes permanent without culture

:05:44. > :05:49.change. That culture change needs to be about two things, openness and

:05:50. > :05:52.transparency about where problems exist, and a proper learning culture

:05:53. > :05:58.to put them right. With the new inspection regime for hospitals,

:05:59. > :06:02.GP's surgeries and care homes, a raft of information published

:06:03. > :06:09.online, we have made progress in transparency. As Sir Robert Francis'

:06:10. > :06:13.report told us, it is still hard for doctors, nurses and other front line

:06:14. > :06:18.staff to raise concerns in a supportive environment. Other

:06:19. > :06:23.industries, particularly the airline and nuclear industries have learned

:06:24. > :06:27.the importance of developing a learning culture, and not a blame

:06:28. > :06:31.culture if safety is to be improved. Too often the fear of litigation for

:06:32. > :06:38.professional consequences inhibits the openness and transparency we

:06:39. > :06:42.need to learn from mistakes. Following the commitment I made to

:06:43. > :06:47.Parliament at the time of the Morecambe Bay investigation, from

:06:48. > :06:52.the 1st of April we will set up our first-ever independent health care

:06:53. > :06:56.safety investigation Branch. Modelled on the air accident

:06:57. > :07:01.investigation Branch which has been so successful in limiting fatalities

:07:02. > :07:05.in the airline industry. It will undertake timely no blame

:07:06. > :07:08.investigations. As with the air accident investigation Branch, we

:07:09. > :07:14.will bring forward measures to bring legal protection to those who speak

:07:15. > :07:17.honestly to investigators. The results of such investigations will

:07:18. > :07:20.be shared with patients and families, he will therefore get to

:07:21. > :07:27.the truth of what happened much more quickly. Unlike at present, those

:07:28. > :07:31.investigations were not normally be used in mitigation and discipline

:07:32. > :07:40.every proceedings, which the normal rules and processes will apply. The

:07:41. > :07:50.safe space created will reduce blame culture, patients and families to

:07:51. > :07:55.five, seven can learn from and stop repeating mistakes. I want to use

:07:56. > :07:59.this reform to encourage much more openness to have the NHS response to

:08:00. > :08:04.tragic mistakes. Families will get the truth faster, doctors will get

:08:05. > :08:07.support and protection to speak out. The NHS as a whole will become

:08:08. > :08:13.better at learning when things go wrong. When patients and families

:08:14. > :08:18.who suffer, and what they want more than anything else is a guarantee no

:08:19. > :08:21.one else will have two relive their agony. This new legal protection

:08:22. > :08:27.will help us to promise them never again. Fundamental to the change is

:08:28. > :08:32.developing a strong reporting culture in hospitals, where mistakes

:08:33. > :08:37.are acknowledged, and not swept under the carpet. Today NHS

:08:38. > :08:43.Improvement has published a learning from mistakes ranking of NHS Trusts,

:08:44. > :08:47.drawing on data from the staff survey, and save the incident

:08:48. > :08:51.reporting to show which trusts have the best reporting culture, and

:08:52. > :08:55.which ones need to be so better at supporting staff who want to raise

:08:56. > :09:01.concerns. This will be updated every year in a new state of hospital

:09:02. > :09:07.quality report. Also containing trusts' estimates at their avoidable

:09:08. > :09:11.mortality rates and will have a strong focus on learning and

:09:12. > :09:15.improvement. The General medical Council and the nursing and

:09:16. > :09:19.midwifery Council guidance is clear. Where doctors, nurses and midwives

:09:20. > :09:22.admit what has gone wrong and apologise, the professional tribunal

:09:23. > :09:27.should give them credit, just as failing to do so is likely to incur

:09:28. > :09:30.serious sanction. The government remains committed to further reform

:09:31. > :09:33.that would allow professional regulators more flexibility to

:09:34. > :09:40.resolve cases without stressful tribunal 's. This change in culture

:09:41. > :09:46.must extend to trust this and every procedures. NHS Improvement will ask

:09:47. > :09:51.for a commitment to openness and learning reflected in all

:09:52. > :09:56.disciplinary procedures, and ask for a charter to improve transparency so

:09:57. > :09:57.staff can have clear expectations of how they will be treated if they

:09:58. > :10:09.report clinical errors. Finally, from April 2018 we will

:10:10. > :10:13.introduce medical examiners recommended in the Francis Report.

:10:14. > :10:22.This will ring in a profound change in our ability to learn from deaths,

:10:23. > :10:25.with each investigated by a coroner, giving grieving relatives the

:10:26. > :10:33.opportunity to be at the heart of the process, flagging up concerns

:10:34. > :10:38.about care two independent physicians, meaning we get to the

:10:39. > :10:43.bottom of systemic failings of care more quickly. An NHS that learns

:10:44. > :10:48.from mistakes, one of the world's largest organisations becoming the

:10:49. > :10:54.world's largest learning organisation, that is how we will

:10:55. > :11:02.offer the safest care and I command this statement to the House. --

:11:03. > :11:06.commend this statement to the House. Can I thank the Secretary of State

:11:07. > :11:10.for his statement and let me say at the outset that the operation

:11:11. > :11:15.supports any measures that will improve safety in the NHS and make

:11:16. > :11:19.it more open to learning from mistakes. However, we will also

:11:20. > :11:24.provide robust opposition and scrutiny when we think the Secretary

:11:25. > :11:28.of State's actions are having the reverse effect. So let me start by

:11:29. > :11:34.setting out where we support the Government. On independent medical

:11:35. > :11:38.examination, the Secretary of State will know that this is a reform that

:11:39. > :11:41.these benches have long been pushing for. The previous Labour Government

:11:42. > :11:49.legislated for the introduction of medical examiners in 2009, following

:11:50. > :11:54."re-into the crimes of Harold Shipman. The call to introduce

:11:55. > :12:01.medical examiners was then repeated in the Francis Report and the

:12:02. > :12:09.Morecambe Bay investigation. The report last year said this: we

:12:10. > :12:17.cannot and -- understand why this has not yet been implemented in

:12:18. > :12:21.full. Whilst we welcome the implementation of medical examiners,

:12:22. > :12:25.it is concerning that it now appears to have been delayed until April 20

:12:26. > :12:31.18. Can the Secretary of State Sehwag process in this -- progress

:12:32. > :12:38.in this area is so slow and will he be consider that, given that April

:12:39. > :12:43.2018 is more than two years ago? Can he also say how this will be funded

:12:44. > :12:48.as Jamaat local Government is facing further cuts over the coming years

:12:49. > :12:52.and whilst it is my understanding that local authorities will be

:12:53. > :12:57.reimbursed for setup cost, I believe they will have to collect fees to

:12:58. > :13:02.fund the service. How will this work in practice? Is the Secretary of

:13:03. > :13:05.State confident that local Government, at a time when it is

:13:06. > :13:12.already having to do more for less, will be able to take on the role of

:13:13. > :13:17.administering this process? We also support the changes to the General

:13:18. > :13:20.medical Council and Nursing and Midwifery Council guidance that the

:13:21. > :13:24.Health Secretary says he is announcing today which will

:13:25. > :13:28.recognise the importance of an apology. But it is unclear how this

:13:29. > :13:36.is different on the new guidance which came into effect last August.

:13:37. > :13:40.Indeed, the GMC first announced plans to change their guidance in

:13:41. > :13:43.this way over a year ago. Can the Health Secretary say how his

:13:44. > :13:51.announcement today differs from plants which were already in place?

:13:52. > :13:56.On the learning from mistakes leak, can be Secretary of State say how

:13:57. > :14:00.those 32 trusts who have a poor reporting culture will be supported

:14:01. > :14:11.to improve? We know from listening to the testimonies of the mother of

:14:12. > :14:15.one patient that the learning culture in some trusts is just not

:14:16. > :14:20.good enough. I know from listening to my own constituents that the

:14:21. > :14:25.fight to get mistakes recognise is only part of the battle. They also

:14:26. > :14:30.want to know that the failures they have experienced will never happen

:14:31. > :14:35.to anyone else and yet, all too often, they are faced with a system

:14:36. > :14:39.which seems as if it simply struggles to learn. Does the

:14:40. > :14:44.Secretary of State except he needs to do much more to develop a

:14:45. > :14:50.positive learning culture in the NHS and how, in practical terms, will he

:14:51. > :14:55.support clinicians and managers to improve services? Go to any health

:14:56. > :15:03.trust and you will find a director of finance, nonexecutive directors

:15:04. > :15:07.with financial expertise, but he will rarely find the same attention

:15:08. > :15:15.paid to quality. Does he agree that the board needs someone whose focus

:15:16. > :15:20.is not short-term firefighting but someone who will coordinate and

:15:21. > :15:25.drive forward quality? I will always support sensible steps to improve

:15:26. > :15:30.safety and transparency in the delivery of health services but what

:15:31. > :15:35.I can't do is stand here today and pretend that other actions taken by

:15:36. > :15:40.this Government won't have a detrimental effect on patient care.

:15:41. > :15:46.The Health Secretary's kamikaze approach to the junior doctor

:15:47. > :15:51.contract means that no matter how this dispute ends, he will have lost

:15:52. > :15:58.the goodwill of staff on which the NHS survives. How can he stand here

:15:59. > :16:03.and talk about patient safety when it is him and him alone who is to

:16:04. > :16:08.blame for the current industrial action for the destruction of staff

:16:09. > :16:17.morale and for the potential exodus of junior doctors to the southern

:16:18. > :16:28.hemisphere? And how, Madam Deputy Speaker... Order. Thank you. And I

:16:29. > :16:31.ask him, how can he stand here and say he wants the NHS to deliver the

:16:32. > :16:37.highest standard of care anywhere in the world when the people he depends

:16:38. > :16:41.upon to deliver that care to patients have said, enough is

:16:42. > :16:46.enough? And how can he talk about patient safety when he knows that

:16:47. > :16:52.his ?22 billion worth of so-called efficiency savings in the next four

:16:53. > :16:58.years will be to job cuts and heap more pressure upon a service which

:16:59. > :17:03.is about to break? Madam Deputy Speaker, I know the Health Secretary

:17:04. > :17:10.has been shy about visiting the NHS front line in the last few months

:17:11. > :17:15.but speak to anyone who has had any contact with the NHS and the message

:17:16. > :17:22.you will hear is clear. The financial crisis facing the NHS is

:17:23. > :17:25.putting patient care at risk. The independent -- the independent King

:17:26. > :17:31.'s fund recently said this: three years on from Robert Francis's

:17:32. > :17:36.report into mid Staffs, which emphasises that safe staffing was

:17:37. > :17:42.the key to maintaining quality of care, the financial meltdown in the

:17:43. > :17:49.NHS now means that the policy is being abandoned. That is simply not

:17:50. > :17:55.good enough. For those people who have experienced failures of care,

:17:56. > :17:57.for those staff who are working in environments so pressurised that

:17:58. > :18:02.they fear for the quality of care that they are able to deliver, the

:18:03. > :18:09.Health Secretary needs to get his head out of the sand. I say this to

:18:10. > :18:13.him: measures to investigate and identify harm are all well and good,

:18:14. > :18:19.but there needs to be action to prevent harm from happening in the

:18:20. > :18:22.first place. Fund the NHS adequately, staff it properly and

:18:23. > :18:31.you might just give it a fighting chance. The honourable lady had the

:18:32. > :18:38.chance to be constructive. I do welcome her commitments to a safer

:18:39. > :18:45.NHS but we need actions, not just words from the Labour Party, if they

:18:46. > :18:50.are to be believed that they want to improve care. Patients and their

:18:51. > :18:56.families will have noticed that when it came to the big test for Labour

:18:57. > :19:03.as to -- as to whether to back honourable patients who need a seven

:19:04. > :19:10.day NHS or the BMA who oppose it, they have chosen the union. Let me

:19:11. > :19:16.remind the House what the founder of the NHS said about the BMA. A small

:19:17. > :19:23.body of politically poisoned people have decided to stir up a much -- as

:19:24. > :19:32.much emotion as they possibly can. They have misrepresented the nation

:19:33. > :19:37.of the call and they will call. He would have wanted a high standard of

:19:38. > :19:42.care for everyone across the week and so should she. She also

:19:43. > :19:48.challenged the Government on safety, so let's look at the facts. Under

:19:49. > :19:53.this Government, MRSA under this deed to present. Record numbers of

:19:54. > :20:05.the public say there care is safe, the proportion suffering from the

:20:06. > :20:11.major causes of problems under -- down by 50%, 11 trusts put into

:20:12. > :20:16.special care. Compare that, before she gets on her high horse, with

:20:17. > :20:24.Labour's record. Avoidable deaths at mid Staffs, Basildon and many other

:20:25. > :20:30.trusts. Care is bad we had to put 27 hospitals into special measures.

:20:31. > :20:37.Contracts that reduced weekend cover in our hospitals passed by the last

:20:38. > :20:44.Government. They made the seven-day NHS harder. We are trying to put

:20:45. > :20:52.that right. She stood on a platform to put ?5.5 billion less into the

:20:53. > :21:00.NHS each year than this Government. We are putting more resources into

:21:01. > :21:03.the NHS. A strong NHS needs a strong economy and Labour had better

:21:04. > :21:09.remember that. Let's look at some of her other points. What I said about

:21:10. > :21:14.the GMC and NMC guidance, having said that it would change, was that

:21:15. > :21:17.that guidance has now changed and it was clear that people would be given

:21:18. > :21:22.credit in tribunals for being open and honest when things have gone

:21:23. > :21:26.wrong. She challenged me about the timings for the introduction of

:21:27. > :21:33.medical examiners. The shipment enquiry's third report recommended

:21:34. > :21:38.medical examiners in 2003. Labour failed to implement that over seven

:21:39. > :21:41.years. In six years, we are implementing it, which is what I

:21:42. > :21:49.announced to date. I am confident that there will not be additional

:21:50. > :21:55.burdens on local Gutman. -- Government. She talked about

:21:56. > :22:00.supporting the trusts which do not have the right reporting culture.

:22:01. > :22:06.That is what we are doing to day. We have not just published the names of

:22:07. > :22:08.the trust that do not have a good reporting culture but we have

:22:09. > :22:17.published the names of those that do. Those trusts that are struggling

:22:18. > :22:22.with this can learn from them. She says I need to do more. With

:22:23. > :22:25.respect, the measures we have taken on openness and transparency and

:22:26. > :22:30.putting quality at the heart of what the NHS does and needs to stand for

:22:31. > :22:35.go a lot further than any thing we saw under the last Labour

:22:36. > :22:39.Government. I would just say this to her, it does say rather a lot that

:22:40. > :22:44.on the day this Government has organised a summit with experts from

:22:45. > :22:50.all over the world on how to make hospitals safer, the Labour Party is

:22:51. > :22:55.lining up with unions against safer seven-day services. I urge her to

:22:56. > :23:00.choose the more difficult path of reform that will help make our NHS

:23:01. > :23:07.the safest health care provider in the world. What a shame the lady on

:23:08. > :23:16.the front bench couldn't have taken the opportunity to condemn the

:23:17. > :23:21.strikes and supporting unions and not the patients will not impress

:23:22. > :23:27.anyone. I welcome the setting up of the health care safety investigation

:23:28. > :23:32.Branch and the medical examiners. This will contribute better results

:23:33. > :23:38.and better outcomes to the health service. The Secretary of State has

:23:39. > :23:43.taken a personal interest in sepsis, Madam Deputy Speaker, in particular

:23:44. > :23:48.responding to the UK sepsis trust. In particular, the Mead family who

:23:49. > :23:52.lost their son and other relatives of patients who have died from

:23:53. > :23:56.sepsis. He knows that the ombudsman report was back in September 2013

:23:57. > :24:00.and it contained many recommendations, including

:24:01. > :24:05.particularly the request for a public awareness campaign which

:24:06. > :24:10.would potentially save lives. With the Secretary of State perhaps tell

:24:11. > :24:13.the House what progress he has made with this because these relatives

:24:14. > :24:16.who are campaigning seem to have been waiting a long time for this

:24:17. > :24:21.public awareness campaign that they believe will help them?

:24:22. > :24:28.I would like to thank my right honourable friend for her

:24:29. > :24:32.campaigning on sepsis. She does a fantastic job with the all-party

:24:33. > :24:34.Parliamentary group. We announced a plan in January of last year, a

:24:35. > :24:46.major area where we need to and increase knowledge inside and

:24:47. > :24:50.outside the NHS. As I told the all-party group a couple of weeks

:24:51. > :24:54.ago, we are now looking into the possibility of a public information

:24:55. > :24:58.campaign. What we want to establish is whether that should be just about

:24:59. > :25:03.that says, or it should be a more general public information campaign

:25:04. > :25:08.to parents, so they can understand when they need to worry about a

:25:09. > :25:14.fever, something very common amongst small children, for which there may

:25:15. > :25:18.be other reasons apart from sepsis, meningitis being in this one. We are

:25:19. > :25:23.doing the detailed work, we want to get it absolutely right, but I

:25:24. > :25:29.commend her persistence for making sure we deliver in this area. I

:25:30. > :25:35.would like to welcome the statement from the Secretary of State, I

:25:36. > :25:39.welcomed the establishment of medical examiners, which we have had

:25:40. > :25:44.in Scotland since last year. I would also ask why the delay of another

:25:45. > :25:53.two years before it comes on stream? As it was a doctor, it was always

:25:54. > :25:58.obvious to me. Someone actually reviewing deaths may have made the

:25:59. > :26:02.difference. I would not underestimate the importance of

:26:03. > :26:07.auditing, and learning from routine auditing, rather than

:26:08. > :26:10.whistle-blowing. In Scotland we have the Scottish audit of surgical

:26:11. > :26:14.mortality in the 1990s, it showed people dying you have not had a

:26:15. > :26:20.sufficiently senior surgeon in their case. That was discussed with the

:26:21. > :26:25.profession and practice change. Future years showed a consultant

:26:26. > :26:30.surgeon on the and a junior anaesthetist. It identified the lack

:26:31. > :26:37.of high dependency nursing units for the sickest patients. Working with

:26:38. > :26:42.audit like that, working with professionals, as we have done,

:26:43. > :26:48.coming up for 20 years would have allowed an evolution of a stronger,

:26:49. > :26:52.safer seven-day emergency service. I will again: the Secretary of State

:26:53. > :26:57.to commit to looking at, if you like, a surgical approach. The

:26:58. > :27:02.things that are missing, access to scans, radiology. Perhaps more

:27:03. > :27:08.senior review and senior involvement. This is not junior

:27:09. > :27:15.doctors, it is not blanket. Also we do need to look at the ratio of

:27:16. > :27:20.staff, Frances and other researchers showing the importance of nursing

:27:21. > :27:24.staff. Staff who do not have a minute to stop and think will make

:27:25. > :27:29.mistakes, and will not have time to report them. We need to make it

:27:30. > :27:35.easy, people need time to minimise mistakes, and there needs to be that

:27:36. > :27:38.culture. I would make a final claim, the Secretary of State is offering

:27:39. > :27:42.more support to whistle-blowers. Perhaps review and reconciliation of

:27:43. > :27:47.those badly treated in the past may give people more confidence that if

:27:48. > :27:51.they step up and report something significant, they will not be hung

:27:52. > :27:59.out to dry as is been the case in the past. I would contrast the tone

:28:00. > :28:06.of her response, and I by no means agree with everything she says, but

:28:07. > :28:10.the tone of the response from that from the Shadow Health Secretary,

:28:11. > :28:17.because she makes important points. On medical examiners, it is not the

:28:18. > :28:20.case we have delayed it. In the last parliament we have pilots, so we

:28:21. > :28:24.could understand exactly how they would work. It is relevant to the

:28:25. > :28:31.other point about auditing, which I agree. Medical examiners will be

:28:32. > :28:36.able to look for are expected for unexplained patterns in death. The

:28:37. > :28:41.vast majority of deaths are routine, predictable and expected. They will

:28:42. > :28:46.be able to identify looking at auditing tools, where there are

:28:47. > :28:50.things to worry about. That is White will be important next step. With

:28:51. > :28:55.respect to whistle-blowers, I reflect on what she says. What we're

:28:56. > :28:59.trying to do today is to eliminate the need for it ever to get to the

:29:00. > :29:05.point where someone had to become a whistle-blower. We want to make sure

:29:06. > :29:09.people are supported to speak out about mistakes they have seen, made,

:29:10. > :29:16.concerns they have. And be confident they will be listened to. The table

:29:17. > :29:21.we are publishing today about the quality of reporting culture. A lot

:29:22. > :29:28.of the raw data which allows us to rank the trusts comes from the NHS

:29:29. > :29:32.staff survey, asking staff how valued they think they are, how safe

:29:33. > :29:38.and easy it is to raise concerns. That is why it is a big step

:29:39. > :29:41.forward. I thank my right honourable friend for his statement and taking

:29:42. > :29:45.forward so many of the recommendations made in the public

:29:46. > :29:49.and ministrations select committee report on investigating chemical

:29:50. > :29:54.incidents in the NHS one year ago. Can I thank him particularly for

:29:55. > :29:58.implementing the idea of creating a safe space, which has been a

:29:59. > :30:03.controversial and difficult subject to discuss, some people think this

:30:04. > :30:07.is about hiding things. In fact it is about getting people to speak

:30:08. > :30:12.much more openly and freely than before. Could he say something about

:30:13. > :30:19.how this will be implemented without primary legislation? I would like to

:30:20. > :30:24.thank my right honourable friend, he and I talked to many times, and

:30:25. > :30:29.fought very hard about how we can learn lessons from the air industry.

:30:30. > :30:33.He is one of the people who came to me first, and said if we want to set

:30:34. > :30:38.up an equivalent of the air accident investigation Branch, we need to

:30:39. > :30:41.give the same legal protections people have when they are speaking

:30:42. > :30:46.to that branch in the health care world. That is at the heart of the

:30:47. > :30:53.statement we are making today. The point he makes about safe space is

:30:54. > :30:59.very, very important. This is not about people getting off Scott free

:31:00. > :31:04.if they make a terrible mistake. There is no extra protection for

:31:05. > :31:06.anyone who breaks the law, commit gross negligence, does something

:31:07. > :31:13.utterly irresponsible. Patients still have that protection. What

:31:14. > :31:17.they gain from this is the comfort we will get to the truth much more

:31:18. > :31:21.quickly, learning from mistakes more quickly as a result. The one thing

:31:22. > :31:27.every single patient and very family always says is the most important

:31:28. > :31:32.thing. Not about money, making sure the system learns from what went

:31:33. > :31:37.wrong. We will make sure we construct the safe space concept

:31:38. > :31:40.around this. I don't rule out extending it beyond the

:31:41. > :31:47.investigation is done by the health and safety investigation Branch. In

:31:48. > :31:53.welcoming the statement the minister has said, in Mike Syrians on the

:31:54. > :31:58.General medical Council and the Health Select Committee, the biggest

:31:59. > :32:02.cloud hanging over the culture of non-reporting in the National Health

:32:03. > :32:09.Service is litigation. Last year cost the British taxpayer ?1.1

:32:10. > :32:15.billion, ?395 million of that in costs for legal fees. Should we be

:32:16. > :32:18.looking at a no-fault liability scheme inside the National Health

:32:19. > :32:28.Service, encouraging cultural change? He's absolutely right to say

:32:29. > :32:33.the effect of the fear of litigation has a very pernicious effect. We can

:32:34. > :32:41.see this across the NHS, a huge drag on costs. We are reforming the way

:32:42. > :32:46.litigation works. We have looked at what happens in other countries, in

:32:47. > :32:51.particular Sweden has had a very gymnastic impact on the way they

:32:52. > :32:55.have reduced maternity and neonatal injury, by creating a no blame

:32:56. > :32:59.culture. I hope today's statement will make a step toward that, but we

:33:00. > :33:06.will consider other changes to the patient process. Our honourable

:33:07. > :33:09.friend for Ipswich and I had a very useful debate today in Westminster

:33:10. > :33:14.Hall about criminal negligence cases. Clearly what the Secretary of

:33:15. > :33:20.State has said this afternoon touches upon it. You may think I'm

:33:21. > :33:30.being obtuse, the statement seems to relate to the internal investigation

:33:31. > :33:33.of poor and mistaken conduct. Not in relation to the resistance or the

:33:34. > :33:38.conduct of clinical negligence cases. I hope I'm wrong about that,

:33:39. > :33:42.it seems to me what we don't want to do, despite the best intentions of

:33:43. > :33:50.the Secretary of State comic identified in the statement, is to

:33:51. > :33:58.make the settlement of just clinical negligence cases more difficult and

:33:59. > :34:03.more expensive, and more scholastic. I read there was a need for the

:34:04. > :34:07.court to give consent for the six lane use of information. Maybe this

:34:08. > :34:16.morning's trails were not accurate and will not reflect what he's

:34:17. > :34:20.intending. I wonder he could extend the internal and external reactions

:34:21. > :34:25.to poor conduct? I shall do my best to my eminent and learned friend.

:34:26. > :34:32.What we want to do is not affect the legal rights of anyone wishing to

:34:33. > :34:38.litigate against the NHS. Because they feel they have been treated

:34:39. > :34:43.badly. Those rights must remain. We will protect those rights. But we

:34:44. > :34:49.want to make it easier to get to the truth of what happened, to learn

:34:50. > :34:59.from the mistakes. The information uncovered by a health care safety

:35:00. > :35:03.investigation branch will not be able to be used without a court

:35:04. > :35:09.order. My belief is having the investigation is done by the branch

:35:10. > :35:12.will speed up, or is quite likely to speed up court processes, because it

:35:13. > :35:18.will establish on all sides in greater likelihood, agreement about

:35:19. > :35:25.what happened. I hate it will be beneficial. If anyone wants to use

:35:26. > :35:30.that evidence in litigation, they would have to regather it. The

:35:31. > :35:33.reason for that, if doctors are worried about anything they say

:35:34. > :35:38.could be used in litigation, they will be hesitant for we are

:35:39. > :35:42.concerned they will be hesitant about speaking openly. That is the

:35:43. > :35:51.defensive culture we're trying to change. I welcome the measures set

:35:52. > :35:54.out in this statement. The Secretary of State will not be surprised to

:35:55. > :36:01.hear I want to focus on safety mental health. The statement feels

:36:02. > :36:05.quite focused on acute hospitals. At the summit, taking place today, will

:36:06. > :36:10.there be a specialist focus on safety mental health? The Secretary

:36:11. > :36:15.of State will remember last February we announced an ambition to achieve

:36:16. > :36:19.zero suicides. He will be aware there has been a significant

:36:20. > :36:23.increase in serious incidents and the reporting of unexpected deaths

:36:24. > :36:31.and suicides. I don't know whether that whole project has stopped, will

:36:32. > :36:38.he meet with me to talk about how we can achieve zero suicides, which has

:36:39. > :36:42.been achieved in the city of the trick in the United States. The same

:36:43. > :36:46.can happen if we have the same focus and ambition. Before the Secretary

:36:47. > :36:50.of State answers that important question. I remind the House we have

:36:51. > :36:55.a lot of business to get through today. Shorter questions and answers

:36:56. > :37:01.would be welcomed by those waiting to speak in other debates. As ever I

:37:02. > :37:08.commend my right friends interest in mental health. Can I reassure him

:37:09. > :37:12.this is very much about what happens in mental health, and the area of

:37:13. > :37:20.learning disabilities. Some of the thoughts here were prompted by what

:37:21. > :37:26.happened at seven health. -- Southern Health, and it is vital we

:37:27. > :37:29.investigate at unexpected deaths in mental health, and the measures we

:37:30. > :37:38.take will go across those areas, and happy to meet and discuss the

:37:39. > :37:42.laudable aim of zero suicides. May I sick do do state for this culture of

:37:43. > :37:48.safety and learning. Can I ask that he looks into increasing the use of

:37:49. > :37:53.exit interviews in the NHS? I have worked in the NHS and other aid

:37:54. > :37:56.organisations, the NHS is the only one where I did not have an exit

:37:57. > :38:05.interview. While we are decreasing in hope to decrease the use of

:38:06. > :38:10.agency staff, it is also an option to do learn from those staff, and

:38:11. > :38:16.learn good and bad practice. I applaud the world Summit on patient

:38:17. > :38:19.safety, I hope you have invited St John eye Hospital from East

:38:20. > :38:24.Jerusalem. If somehow that was forgotten, can you ensure they are

:38:25. > :38:34.invited to the Berlin summit next year. I shall feel very prompted by

:38:35. > :38:38.her question to investigate practice eight St John eye Hospital injuries

:38:39. > :38:43.and. She makes a good point about eye hospitals, I would like to --

:38:44. > :38:49.about exit interviews, I will take that away. The use of agency staff

:38:50. > :38:55.does inhibit a learning culture, a large percentage of staff only in an

:38:56. > :38:59.organisation on a temporary basis, not part of regular teams, not able

:39:00. > :39:03.to transmit lessons learned, is why we have to deal with the

:39:04. > :39:08.overreliance on agency staff in some parts of the NHS.

:39:09. > :39:14.Can I ask the Secretary of State if he is going to list Morecambe Bay in

:39:15. > :39:18.a litany of things to bash the last Government over the head he does so

:39:19. > :39:23.while acknowledging that the situation continued actually for

:39:24. > :39:29.sometime under his Government and is still taking sometime to turn

:39:30. > :39:33.around. Now I want to wholeheartedly welcome his focus on patient safety

:39:34. > :39:38.and his overall approach and pay tribute again to the Morecambe Bay

:39:39. > :39:45.campaigners who have done so much to trigger this improvement. Does he

:39:46. > :39:48.share my concerns over Trusts like Morecambe Bay which are being for a

:39:49. > :39:54.number of reasons, including this issue of safety, being forced to use

:39:55. > :39:58.a large number of agency staff and the difficulty in changing culture

:39:59. > :40:04.when that staffing situation persists? Well, let me commend the

:40:05. > :40:07.staff at Morecambe Bay who have been through a very difficult patch

:40:08. > :40:12.thachlt Trust has exited special measures now. It's an exciting step

:40:13. > :40:18.for the Trust. I think there has been a huge amount of work to make

:40:19. > :40:21.that possible. But I think it feels to me like they've really turned a

:40:22. > :40:25.corner and we should support the staff who have done a great job in

:40:26. > :40:30.that. I think the issue he raises about

:40:31. > :40:36.agency staff is very important. In particular, it is very challenging

:40:37. > :40:40.to get permanent recruitment to more isolated places, not just Morecambe

:40:41. > :40:45.Bay, but across the country, we find this is a problem. But I think

:40:46. > :40:51.sometimes it can be false comfort to get in large numbers of agency

:40:52. > :40:55.staff, not only are they extremely expensive, but they can't offer the

:40:56. > :40:59.continuity of care that is at the heart of a safer culture and so we

:41:00. > :41:05.have to find better ways to support places like Morecambe Bay to further

:41:06. > :41:10.improve their safety. I congratulate my right honourable friend on a

:41:11. > :41:12.range of initiatives, including the independent healthcare safety

:41:13. > :41:17.investigation body but remind him that some of the problems we face

:41:18. > :41:20.are staring him in the face, not less the difficulties in

:41:21. > :41:30.Leicestershire with the am Buckingham Palace service and I

:41:31. > :41:34.would like to thank member for Ipswich to discuss the problems that

:41:35. > :41:38.occur when you have ambulances queuing to discharge patients and

:41:39. > :41:40.his honourable friend talked about bringing in trouble-shooters to

:41:41. > :41:45.resolve problems. Can he enlighten the House as to what he proposes to

:41:46. > :41:50.do with these very evident problems that require little investigation,

:41:51. > :41:55.they require action? I think we do have a system-wide

:41:56. > :41:58.problem in Leicestershire and we are looking into that absolutely

:41:59. > :42:03.urgently and I would like to thank him for raising that issue. He is

:42:04. > :42:06.absolutely right, when we talk about safety and we talk about being open

:42:07. > :42:12.about mistakes that has to apply to the ambulance service as much as any

:42:13. > :42:15.other part of the NHS. Can I also welcome your statement as

:42:16. > :42:20.well to the House today and I welcome in particular your

:42:21. > :42:25.commitment to building a safer 7-day NHS in Northern Ireland we have

:42:26. > :42:29.announced a 1200 new nurses, 300 new professionals, extra money for

:42:30. > :42:33.mental healthcare and extra money to address waiting lists in Northern

:42:34. > :42:38.Ireland to build a safer NHS seven days. In your statement you referred

:42:39. > :42:41.to learning from mistakes and the need for extension of disciplinary

:42:42. > :42:45.procedures, openness to learning and transparency. Can I ask what

:42:46. > :42:48.discussions the Minister has had with my Northern Ireland Assembly

:42:49. > :42:52.Minister Simon Hamilton in relation to ensuring this system can be

:42:53. > :42:56.replicated in Northern Ireland and other regional Assemblies and

:42:57. > :43:02.administrations across the whole of the UK of Great Britain and Northern

:43:03. > :43:06.Ireland? Well, my colleague, the hospitals Minister is going to have

:43:07. > :43:09.those discussions with the northern I shall health Minister. But he is

:43:10. > :43:14.right, if we are going to have a learning culture -- Northern Irish.

:43:15. > :43:16.It needs to be across the UK, not just within England and that's why I

:43:17. > :43:19.welcome the discussions with the Scottish NHS and the Welsh NHS.

:43:20. > :43:26.There are things we can learn from each other and we should be

:43:27. > :43:32.open-minded in doing so. We must all strive to improve safety and quality

:43:33. > :43:36.in the NHS. But the health foundation report that the Secretary

:43:37. > :43:40.of State referred to quoted 40% of patients saying there were too few

:43:41. > :43:45.nurses to care for them. This is three years after the Francis

:43:46. > :43:51.Report. If the Government says that the NHS must learn more, what is the

:43:52. > :43:55.Government doing to learn from the inquiries that have been held? Well,

:43:56. > :43:59.quite a lot, for example, increasing the number of nurses by more than

:44:00. > :44:04.10,000 since then. So that we can make sure that we don't have a

:44:05. > :44:09.problem with safety on our wards by more than 10,000 since the Francis

:44:10. > :44:12.Report was published. Because we recognise that it's incredibly

:44:13. > :44:15.important not to have short-staffed wards and we are making more reforms

:44:16. > :44:18.this parliament to make sure that we can recruit even more nurses and

:44:19. > :44:26.that will be something that I think will be good to have some support

:44:27. > :44:29.from Labour for. Can I congratulate my right honourable friend for his

:44:30. > :44:33.statement although I hope that it draws from experience from other

:44:34. > :44:39.healthcare economies as well as from the aerospace sector. When things go

:44:40. > :44:43.wrong it's right that the NHS is frank about it and where necessary

:44:44. > :44:47.compensates people for what may be long-term management issues.

:44:48. > :44:52.However, currently, negligence settlements are based upon provision

:44:53. > :44:55.in the private sector and do not anticipate necessarily that people

:44:56. > :44:59.will be treated and managed in the NHS which means that the service

:45:00. > :45:03.effectively pays twice for mistakes. As he seeks to close the Simon

:45:04. > :45:07.Stevens spending gap that's something perhaps he might wish to

:45:08. > :45:12.reflect on. I would be grateful if he could say to what extent he

:45:13. > :45:19.thinks excessive negligence claims are influenced by the pervase way in

:45:20. > :45:24.which they're currently calculated? I think there are things that

:45:25. > :45:27.someone independently looking at our current system might say are

:45:28. > :45:35.difficult to understand. One of them is the point that he makes. Another

:45:36. > :45:38.is the point that we tend to give bigger awards to wealthier families

:45:39. > :45:44.because we take into account the family income when we make these

:45:45. > :45:49.awards, some of the time. So I think this is an area that we are looking

:45:50. > :45:55.at. The only thing I would say is that we are cautious about reducing

:45:56. > :45:57.the legal rights of patients to secure a fair settlement when

:45:58. > :46:01.something has gone wrong because I think in the end this is about doing

:46:02. > :46:05.the right thing for patients and I think the most effective way, which

:46:06. > :46:08.I know he would agree with, if we want to reduce these large

:46:09. > :46:13.litigation bills is to stop the harm happening in the first place and

:46:14. > :46:17.that's what today is all about. If anybody should be learning from

:46:18. > :46:21.the mistakes in the health service, it should be the Secretary of State

:46:22. > :46:26.for health. I have been down to the picket line today as I have on every

:46:27. > :46:30.single occasion. I can tell him that it's hardening. There are more

:46:31. > :46:34.people on that picket line today at St Thomas than I have seen in all

:46:35. > :46:42.the months in this strike began. I am a bit of an expert on picket

:46:43. > :46:47.lines. I know what it's like. Quite frankly, the biggest mistake he's

:46:48. > :46:51.made is to think he can get away with imposing a seven-day week on

:46:52. > :46:57.the hospital doctors and everybody else that works in the health

:46:58. > :47:02.service because he wants to avoid proper premium payments, when I

:47:03. > :47:08.worked in the coal mines, miners got double pay on Sundays. They got

:47:09. > :47:13.time-and-a-half all day Saturday. It's time he recognised, not just

:47:14. > :47:18.hospital doctors, but nurses, radiologists and all the others that

:47:19. > :47:23.would have to work a seven-day week, should all be paid the proper money,

:47:24. > :47:29.otherwise pack the job in and then he will be doing a service to the

:47:30. > :47:36.whole of the National Health Service. So, the proposals that we

:47:37. > :47:40.are making for doctors will see them receiving higher premium rates than

:47:41. > :47:45.lower paid nurses, higher premium rates than lower paid paramedics,

:47:46. > :47:48.higher premium rates than lower paid healthcare assistants. I thought he

:47:49. > :47:52.was someone who campaigned for the lower paid. Let me say to him, the

:47:53. > :47:57.day that I stop this job will be the day I stop doing the right thing for

:47:58. > :48:00.patients and he has constituents who need a seven-day NHS. I have

:48:01. > :48:04.constituents who need a seven-day NHS. This Government will be there

:48:05. > :48:15.for those constituents and will do the right thing.

:48:16. > :48:20.Order! Thank you. Can I congratulate the Secretary of State on his

:48:21. > :48:23.statement this afternoon and welcome the culture change he is putting

:48:24. > :48:29.through in the NHS. Because my experience of working in the NHS on

:48:30. > :48:32.a number of - under under a number of governments is that where

:48:33. > :48:36.mistakes happen it was always a scapegoat was identified and it was

:48:37. > :48:40.thought the problem was dealt with. That's why people were reluctant to

:48:41. > :48:44.report problems. Often it's not one individual. It's a system of

:48:45. > :48:48.failure. We need to learn from that. I very much welcome the Secretary of

:48:49. > :48:52.State's comments on that. What relatives and patients have said to

:48:53. > :48:55.me, they don't just want the problem identified, they want to make sure

:48:56. > :49:00.it never happens again which is exactly what the Secretary of State

:49:01. > :49:05.has said. Can I also comment on what the Shadow Secretary of State, I

:49:06. > :49:10.chaired a public health - primary care seminar this morning with GPs,

:49:11. > :49:13.nurses, doctors and pharmacists... I am sure the honourable ladiy will

:49:14. > :49:18.quickly come to her question, we are going to run out of time. I will be

:49:19. > :49:21.very quick. They are fed up of the NHS being talked down by members of

:49:22. > :49:27.the - there was a plea to showcase the good work that's happening in

:49:28. > :49:31.our NHS today. Thank you. It's so good to have someone with nursing

:49:32. > :49:34.experience in this House. She makes an important contribution which I

:49:35. > :49:37.hope she will make for many years to come because of her experience. She

:49:38. > :49:41.knows what it's like on the frontline and why it's important to

:49:42. > :49:46.get this culture change. She also knows how important it is not to run

:49:47. > :49:52.down the NHS which is doing extremely well. Last week I received

:49:53. > :49:57.an e-mail which was frankly heart-breaking. My constituent's

:49:58. > :50:03.84-year-old father, a proud and dignified man was admitted to

:50:04. > :50:06.hospital and had to wait with stroke symptoms to are 14 hours with a bed.

:50:07. > :50:12.She found him in bed wearing only clothes on his top half, he needed

:50:13. > :50:16.the toilet... Order. The honourable lady will always quickly come to her

:50:17. > :50:20.question I am sure. This was no dignified way to treat this man.

:50:21. > :50:25.Will the Secretary of State agree to have an urgent investigation into

:50:26. > :50:27.safe staffing levels because the nursing staff told her they didn't

:50:28. > :50:32.have time to fulfil his basic nursing needs?

:50:33. > :50:36.I am more than happy to look into that case and that is exactly the

:50:37. > :50:46.kind of case that we are trying to stop with the measures that we are

:50:47. > :50:49.putting forward today. Can I congratulate my right honourable

:50:50. > :50:51.friend for again making sure it's patient healthcare andout comes that

:50:52. > :50:56.are at the forefront of his thinking and that of the professional health

:50:57. > :50:59.service who do such a brave job and can sometimes be caught in the

:51:00. > :51:06.crossfire. Does he agree that comments from people on the

:51:07. > :51:10.frontline protecting the doctors strike, like this, who started a

:51:11. > :51:14.Facebook saying I hate the Conservatives... I will leave it

:51:15. > :51:17.there, I don't want to offend you. They don't care about healthcare,

:51:18. > :51:21.they're interested in more political gain. This I am afraid is the

:51:22. > :51:24.problem with some elements in the BMA, they're putting politics ahead

:51:25. > :51:29.of patients. We have heard today it's the problem in the Labour

:51:30. > :51:37.Party, as well. Thank you. Action on the Review is

:51:38. > :51:42.very much welcome. There is so many cases I could cite, when a junior

:51:43. > :51:46.doctor reported bullying, black-listing and now can only work

:51:47. > :51:51.as a locum, when he wrote to the Secretary of State, the Secretary of

:51:52. > :51:56.State refused to engage, listen and learn from his experience. Learning

:51:57. > :52:00.cultures have to start at the top with you, Secretary of State. Will

:52:01. > :52:04.the Secretary of State now set out how he is going to address

:52:05. > :52:08.retrospective cases of whistle-blowing where people have

:52:09. > :52:13.been subject to discrimination? I hope that she's not quoting

:52:14. > :52:19.selectively from my reply to the person concerned. When people do

:52:20. > :52:23.raise issues of patient safety with me I usually refer them to the CQC

:52:24. > :52:27.who are able to do a proper reply and I would be surprised if I didn't

:52:28. > :52:34.do that in this particular case. What I would say about retrospective

:52:35. > :52:38.cases is that they are particularly difficult, much as we want to help,

:52:39. > :52:42.because it is very difficult constitutionally to unpick the

:52:43. > :52:46.decisions made by courts. What we are trying to do is to separate

:52:47. > :52:53.employment grievances from safety grievances and make that the way we

:52:54. > :52:56.solve these difficult situations. I think like many MPs I have come

:52:57. > :52:58.across cases where this approach would help enormously and I thank

:52:59. > :53:03.the Secretary of State for his statement today. The same CQC report

:53:04. > :53:08.that praised staff and clinicians at the Worcestershire acute Trust for

:53:09. > :53:11.their good and outstanding care raised concerns about the management

:53:12. > :53:15.and about safety at the hospital's partly as a result of too many

:53:16. > :53:17.interim managers and a lack of ability to address and learn from

:53:18. > :53:20.mistakes that have been made. Can I urge the Secretary of State to do

:53:21. > :53:24.everything in his power and work with all the relevant organisations

:53:25. > :53:29.to put the long-term permanent management in place at that Trust so

:53:30. > :53:34.we can take things forward and make patients safer? He speaks wisely.

:53:35. > :53:38.One thing That's Britain been a mistake of -- one thing that's been

:53:39. > :53:43.a mistake of successive governments han been a short-termist approach to

:53:44. > :53:47.NHS managers where we ourselves have looked for a scapegoat when

:53:48. > :53:50.something has gone wrong and a target missed or whatever, and not

:53:51. > :53:51.backed people making long-term transformations and that's something

:53:52. > :54:02.that we need to think about hard. But I thank the Secretary of State

:54:03. > :54:06.for his statement and the work he's done and also paid tribute to those

:54:07. > :54:13.who have campaigned to bring patient safety to the forefront, many from

:54:14. > :54:16.tragic experiences they've had. What work is being done to make sure that

:54:17. > :54:24.medical schools and nursing schools have patient safety on the

:54:25. > :54:28.curriculum? We have looked at the curriculum very carefully and the

:54:29. > :54:34.thing we want to do is personally make sure people understand their

:54:35. > :54:38.responsibilities to speak out if they see mistakes and things going

:54:39. > :54:41.wrong, but also to help people understand that this might not be

:54:42. > :54:44.the prevailing culture in the hospital they go to and that we are

:54:45. > :54:52.looking to a new generation of doctors and nurses to help change

:54:53. > :54:56.this culture for the better. I'd also like to welcome my right

:54:57. > :55:01.honourable friend's statement today. He will be aware of the tragic death

:55:02. > :55:04.of three-year-old Johnny at Stafford Hospital, having met his parents,

:55:05. > :55:09.they have been looking for answers to their questions for some time.

:55:10. > :55:12.Can he confirmed that this do health care safety investigation Branch has

:55:13. > :55:17.announced today it will put families like Johnny's, give them the

:55:18. > :55:23.opportunity to get the answers they have been looking for? I would like

:55:24. > :55:28.to thank her for her support for Johnny's parents, this is a very sad

:55:29. > :55:33.case, but the independent investigator in that case spoke

:55:34. > :55:38.about the closed culture he encountered at two different trusts

:55:39. > :55:44.and that is a very good example of the change in culture we need. I

:55:45. > :55:47.have worked with them and I hope we can secure a second inquest on his

:55:48. > :55:52.death so we can get to the truth eventually. It will be too late, but

:55:53. > :55:59.we want to get there eventually. Jason McCartney. As the Secretary of

:56:00. > :56:08.State is aware, my local sea GC starts a consultation next Wednesday

:56:09. > :56:12.on proposals to downgrade A, does he agree that patient safety must be

:56:13. > :56:18.the priority in the sessions and not the ruinous PFI deal signed at

:56:19. > :56:23.Halifax hospital in 1998 which is the backdrop to these appalling

:56:24. > :56:28.plans? No one fights harder for his constituents on health care matters

:56:29. > :56:35.than he does and I commend him for that. The process will be led by

:56:36. > :56:42.clinicians but he is right, patient safety must be of paramount

:56:43. > :56:49.importance. We have one of the worst still birth rates in the developed

:56:50. > :56:54.world, and everyone is a tragedy, and we must do all we can to avoid

:56:55. > :57:00.those, especially when half are preventable. As the co-chair of the

:57:01. > :57:05.new group on baby loss, would he agree with me that it is only by

:57:06. > :57:08.learning the lessons on everything that we can get the number down by

:57:09. > :57:14.20% at the end of the Parliament and by half the year after? He is

:57:15. > :57:24.absolutely right and other like to thank him for his work in this area.

:57:25. > :57:27.Maternity in general, stillbirths, natal deaths, natal injuries, this

:57:28. > :57:31.is the area where I hope we make the most rapid early progress in

:57:32. > :57:37.developing this new learning culture because it seems there is so much to

:57:38. > :57:39.be gained. We can be the best in the world, but the truth is we are a

:57:40. > :57:44.long way down the international league tables in this area and none

:57:45. > :57:49.of us want that for the NHS and there is real commitment to turn

:57:50. > :57:57.that around. The prize for perseverance and patience goes to Mr

:57:58. > :58:03.Mark Spencer. I'm grateful, even if my knees are not. Can I say to the

:58:04. > :58:07.Secretary of State, congratulate him on protecting a space for doctors to

:58:08. > :58:12.be honest and upfront when things go wrong and also to strike the balance

:58:13. > :58:17.so relatives and people who suffer wrong swim the NHS get to the bottom

:58:18. > :58:23.of what went wrong and why it won't happen again in future -- wrong is

:58:24. > :58:28.in the air chess. I would like to thank him. That is the heart of what

:58:29. > :58:34.we want to do and he has been very closely involved in the improvements

:58:35. > :58:38.we want to make in his local trust. If his knees are in pain, I can

:58:39. > :58:42.recommend a very good GP surgery in his constituency that he showed me

:58:43. > :58:52.in the last election campaign. Order. Point of order. Dot. Fox. I

:58:53. > :58:58.wonder if you can help clarify what outstanding issue from today's

:58:59. > :59:01.urgent question. In the head of government statement which was

:59:02. > :59:06.issued in the name of our Prime Minister, it says very clearly it is

:59:07. > :59:09.to accelerate the implementation of the Visa liberalisation road map

:59:10. > :59:16.with all member states with a view to lifting the Visa requirements for

:59:17. > :59:24.Turkish citizens by at the latest the end of 2016, but this does not

:59:25. > :59:27.apply to the United Kingdom. However, it cannot apply to all

:59:28. > :59:31.states and not the United Kingdom, so one of the versions must be

:59:32. > :59:34.incorrect. I wonder if we might get a written verification for the

:59:35. > :59:43.government as to which of these events in question is the truth. The

:59:44. > :59:50.House knows that I'm not responsible for the content of the statement

:59:51. > :59:55.made earlier today by the Minister. The chair is responsible for making

:59:56. > :00:02.sure that members on the backbenches have satisfactory answers and full

:00:03. > :00:06.answers from ministers and I'm quite certain that those on the Treasury

:00:07. > :00:14.bench will have taken note of what the right honourable gentleman has

:00:15. > :00:22.said and will act accordingly. Presentation of Bill, now.

:00:23. > :00:37.Regulation of sale and ownership bill. 22nd of April, 2016. Order. We

:00:38. > :00:46.now come to the ten minute rule motion. Les Savill Roberts. I beg to

:00:47. > :00:52.move that leave the given to bring in a bill to consolidate offences

:00:53. > :00:55.regarding the misuse of technical devices, for the purposes of

:00:56. > :01:03.committing and preparing to commit or aiding and abetting a crime and

:01:04. > :01:06.the disposal of proceeds of crime, to make provision, reflecting

:01:07. > :01:10.technological advancements including the training of criminal justice

:01:11. > :01:16.personnel, to establish advice and guidance to the digital services

:01:17. > :01:18.industries, aimed at reducing the misuse of digital technologies are

:01:19. > :01:25.criminal purposes and for connected purposes. There has been

:01:26. > :01:29.unprecedented rise in crime assisted by digital technology in the last

:01:30. > :01:34.decade. Just as so many of us spend so many of our waking hours in

:01:35. > :01:37.cyberspace, so has organised crime found new territory in which to

:01:38. > :01:43.operate, abusers have found new ways to torment their victims, often

:01:44. > :01:47.under the veil of anonymity. Charities, agencies and police

:01:48. > :01:51.involved with tackling, stalking and harassment, hate crimes and abuse,

:01:52. > :01:56.are only too aware that criminals and abusers are using technology to

:01:57. > :01:59.target victims. The challenge is to identify what is criminal behaviour

:02:00. > :02:04.and to respond appropriately. Victims of cyber abuse often do not

:02:05. > :02:09.turn to the police, either because they are not aware that the fence is

:02:10. > :02:13.being committed or because they do not believe the police will act. --

:02:14. > :02:19.that the fence. Half of all crimes reported to front line officers have

:02:20. > :02:23.a cyber element. Police experts state as many as 7 million online

:02:24. > :02:29.fraud is a year and 3 million other online crimes. Very many of these go

:02:30. > :02:34.unreported. The police lead on the fight against digital crime, and the

:02:35. > :02:37.Chief Constable of Essex warns the level of abuse taking place on the

:02:38. > :02:42.internet are now at previously unexpected levels and that the

:02:43. > :02:48.police are at risk of being swamped. That is his word. Sometimes police

:02:49. > :02:59.response to victims complaints is ambiguous, yet if these are crimes,

:03:00. > :03:08.and they are, and a -- an on ambiguous response is not

:03:09. > :03:13.sufficient. What would flag up aggressive words leading to violent

:03:14. > :03:16.action in the physical world? What, as a society, do we believe should

:03:17. > :03:22.be treated as criminal behaviour and what is Meli the unfortunate

:03:23. > :03:27.reflection of individual's private thoughts laid out for the world to

:03:28. > :03:32.retweet at leisure? And how did the police deal with all this? The

:03:33. > :03:39.police, many of home, especially senior police officers, were trained

:03:40. > :03:43.to deal with 20th century crimes and they now find themselves in the 21st

:03:44. > :03:45.century admits to a maelstrom of Mass information and breakneck

:03:46. > :03:50.technological change -- many of whom. The bobby on his bicycle, out

:03:51. > :03:57.on the internet highway, policing the dark net with a flashlight and

:03:58. > :04:04.an Alsatian. The purpose of this bill is to call on a review of

:04:05. > :04:11.legislation and to consolidate power is into a single bill. At present

:04:12. > :04:17.prosecution can be initiated with a confusing array of legislation and I

:04:18. > :04:22.thank Harry Fletcher of the digital trust for his work on this bill.

:04:23. > :04:29.This has that that 30 relevant acts, including one from the 19th century.

:04:30. > :04:32.The existing provision is inadequate, and this acts as a

:04:33. > :04:38.hindrance, allowing abuse to continue unchecked. It is important

:04:39. > :04:41.to understand, the threshold set for the prosecution of hate crimes is

:04:42. > :04:47.extremely high, this is understandable, and yet the way in

:04:48. > :04:50.which this threshold is interpreted varies from police force to police

:04:51. > :04:54.force and many incidents are not prosecuted. Consolidating this and

:04:55. > :04:58.other statutes will bring much-needed clarity. The requirement

:04:59. > :05:05.for additional police training will address the situation when only 7500

:05:06. > :05:07.police officers out of a total of 100,000 in England and Wales are

:05:08. > :05:15.trained to investigate digital crime. The bill updates laws and it

:05:16. > :05:19.becomes a clear offence to locate and listen to and watch individuals

:05:20. > :05:25.by means of digital technology without reason and it will be

:05:26. > :05:28.illegal to install spy cams that reason and becomes an offence to

:05:29. > :05:32.make multiple images of a person unless that is in the public

:05:33. > :05:35.interest. It becomes an offence to order goods and services for a

:05:36. > :05:39.person if it causes distress and anxiety. Posting images without the

:05:40. > :05:43.subject's permission and the posting of messages which are

:05:44. > :05:58.discriminatory, threatening, cause distress or anxiety, Wilbur, fences.

:05:59. > :06:02.It -- will become offences. We will conduct impact assessments for

:06:03. > :06:04.customers come at a block offensive social media postings, inciting

:06:05. > :06:09.violence and to cooperate and informed the police in the event of

:06:10. > :06:12.wrongdoing. I'm aware that this is something of a cliche, it is

:06:13. > :06:17.difficult to avoid stating the obvious fact, this is a piece of

:06:18. > :06:22.legislation which time has come. It is evidence from the cross-party

:06:23. > :06:27.support that parliamentarians across the House feel that legislation

:06:28. > :06:33.relating to cybercrime and cyber abuse must be fit for purpose. And

:06:34. > :06:38.that the course is available at the moment is not facilitate the work of

:06:39. > :06:44.police and prosecutors. This ready response is clear from my own

:06:45. > :06:52.experience. MPs have had online threats and we have people reporting

:06:53. > :06:57.abuse and bullying at our -- in our constituencies. Teaching unions are

:06:58. > :07:03.concerned that the beast their members face. The campaigning

:07:04. > :07:12.organisation kick it out works with football fans and they deal with

:07:13. > :07:18.abuse relating to race and sexuality, 42% of incidents they

:07:19. > :07:31.dealt with them on social media. I had a description of how one person

:07:32. > :07:37.was targeted through gaming. She had assumed that gaming was going to be

:07:38. > :07:41.where they would meet other children. We should not

:07:42. > :07:45.underestimate what is at stake, digital crime can ruin lives, and on

:07:46. > :07:49.the 26th of a Womens Aid hosted a conference under the title he is

:07:50. > :07:53.watching you, and the conference focused on revenge pornography and

:07:54. > :07:55.the many ways in which perpetrators of domestic violence can further

:07:56. > :08:03.their abuse by tormenting their victims over the internet. As the

:08:04. > :08:08.CEO of Womens Aid said, there is not a real world and a digital world, we

:08:09. > :08:12.exist online in a real way. It is often said that social media makes

:08:13. > :08:16.the world seems smaller, but for victims of online abuse and

:08:17. > :08:19.harassment it can make a film like the world is closing in on them,

:08:20. > :08:25.like there is no escape. -- can make it feel. For victims of domestic

:08:26. > :08:28.violence, online abuse can be overwhelming, the Womens Aid survey

:08:29. > :08:33.of over 700 survivors of online abuse found that in 85% of cases the

:08:34. > :08:38.online abuse was part of a wider pattern of abuse which occurred on

:08:39. > :08:41.the internet and also in real life. Perpetrators will use any means

:08:42. > :08:48.necessary to control and intimidate their victims. The danger is very

:08:49. > :08:53.real. One third of online threats of violence are then carried out. Abuse

:08:54. > :08:56.tends to escalate after a relationship ends which means

:08:57. > :09:04.victims are at an even greater danger once the perpetrator in --

:09:05. > :09:08.inbox on online abuse. The threats have got to be taken seriously, do

:09:09. > :09:10.we don't, more people will have their lives destroyed. -- if we

:09:11. > :09:20.don't. Some changes already afoot. Last week the CPS announced new

:09:21. > :09:24.guidelines for prosecutors of certain elements of social media

:09:25. > :09:28.abuse. A consultation has been launched about these guidelines

:09:29. > :09:32.which advised lawyers to prosecute criminals who use fake online

:09:33. > :09:36.aliases to harass victims. The guidelines acknowledge that such

:09:37. > :09:40.abusers can pose as victims online in order to damage reputations. They

:09:41. > :09:45.offer guidance on how to interpret existing laws, particularly in light

:09:46. > :09:52.of newer offences such as coercive control and revenge pornography.

:09:53. > :09:57.is, of course, welcome to see change starting to take root. But these

:09:58. > :10:00.guidelines are not a panacea. They underline the sheer number of

:10:01. > :10:04.statues that can be used by prosecutors. I believe that my bill

:10:05. > :10:09.would go a long way towards tackling this problem and that it will send a

:10:10. > :10:13.clear signal to perpetrators and victims alike that as a society we

:10:14. > :10:20.take these crimes seriously. I commend the bill to this House.

:10:21. > :10:23.The question is that the honourable member have leave to bring in the

:10:24. > :10:31.bill. As many of that opinion say aye. Of the contrary no. I think the

:10:32. > :10:42.ayes have it. Who will prepare and bring in the bill? Mr Graham Allen,

:10:43. > :10:47.Sir David Amos, Sir Edward Garnier, MrsSheryl Gillan, MrDavid Lammey,

:10:48. > :10:54.Dame Lawton, miss Margaret Ritchie, Mr Barry Sheerman, Hall Williams,

:10:55. > :11:08.coresy Wilson, Dr Sarah wools ston and myself, MrSpeaker.

:11:09. > :11:35.Criminal offences, misuse of digital technologies and services

:11:36. > :11:47.consultation bill. Second reading what day? 11th March, MrSpeaker. The

:11:48. > :11:52.11th March. Thank you. Order. Point of order, MrSpeaker. Point of

:11:53. > :11:56.order, Sir Edward league. It's obvious that this next item of

:11:57. > :11:59.business is going to be enormously popular with people trying to speak.

:12:00. > :12:02.Indeed there is great public interest. I thought you would be

:12:03. > :12:06.interested to know on the procedure committee we are doing an inquiry

:12:07. > :12:10.now about whether to give you more power to extend debates. It seems

:12:11. > :12:14.ridiculous that this is entirely in the control of the Government and

:12:15. > :12:17.for instance on Monday we left early on a second reading while today many

:12:18. > :12:21.honourable members will either not be able to speak or give short

:12:22. > :12:26.speeches. I thought you would like to know that, Mr Speaker. Well, it's

:12:27. > :12:32.always useful to have a bit of information. I greatly look forward

:12:33. > :12:40.to the result of the deliberations of the procedure committee of which

:12:41. > :12:46.I think the honourable gentleman is himself a distinguished ornament. If

:12:47. > :12:53.there are no further points of order, we shall now proceed. As I

:12:54. > :12:57.inform the House yesterday, my provisional certificate based on

:12:58. > :12:59.changes made in committee and expected Government amendments

:13:00. > :13:04.tabled for report stage is available in the vote office and on the bills

:13:05. > :13:10.before parliament website. At the end of the report stage on a bill I

:13:11. > :13:16.am required to consider the bill as amended on report for certification.

:13:17. > :13:19.At that point later today I will issue my final certificate. Order.

:13:20. > :13:26.The clerk will now proceed to read the orders of the day. Enterprise

:13:27. > :13:31.bill Lords, as amended in the committee to be further considered.

:13:32. > :13:39.Thank you. Order. We begin with amendment one with which it will be

:13:40. > :13:46.convenient to consider amendment 19 and Government amendments two, 13

:13:47. > :13:52.and 14, to move amendment one I call MrDavid Burrows. I beg to move

:13:53. > :13:54.amendment one in my name and that of 24 of my honourable and right

:13:55. > :13:59.honourable friends as well as honourable members from across the

:14:00. > :14:03.House, I think I counted seven different parties who have signed up

:14:04. > :14:08.to my amendment. I couldn't quite convince one party, the Ukip party,

:14:09. > :14:11.to unite behind my amendment, I may consider to persuade him if he

:14:12. > :14:15.attends the debate. Nevertheless, there is a significant cross-party

:14:16. > :14:19.support for this amendment which in many ways I wouldn't wish to be

:14:20. > :14:25.here, it's sorry that we are here having to deal with this issue. I

:14:26. > :14:30.want to explain shortly why it is within some sorrow. Not least around

:14:31. > :14:34.procedure that I don't think has been followed through but the issue

:14:35. > :14:38.around Sunday trading. Members will remember previous debates, some

:14:39. > :14:42.years ago, the 90s or the 80s, that took considerable time and attention

:14:43. > :14:45.of this House. Indeed, the last time it came before this House I think

:14:46. > :14:51.some two years of debate in relation to get to the particular compromise

:14:52. > :14:56.that we reached. We have three hours today to be able to either unpick

:14:57. > :14:58.that settlement or as my amendment seeks to do to delete the

:14:59. > :15:04.Government's attempt in which to do so. But let's get back to what this

:15:05. > :15:08.bill is about. Let's see how it fits in to Sunday trading into the

:15:09. > :15:11.intention of the bill. Because when I came to this House the clear aims

:15:12. > :15:15.of the bill were follows, to make sure that Britain is the best place

:15:16. > :15:19.in Europe to start and grow a business, and that people who work

:15:20. > :15:23.hard have the opportunity to succeed. Secondly, to cut red tape

:15:24. > :15:28.for businesses, encourage investments and skills and make it

:15:29. > :15:33.easier for small firms to resolve payment disputes by setting up a

:15:34. > :15:36.small business commissioner. And so say all of us, certainly so say all

:15:37. > :15:42.on the Government benches, all of us in relation to what is an important

:15:43. > :15:48.bill and one in which I support. Up to the point of its inclusion of

:15:49. > :15:52.this Sunday trading bill. Yes. I am most grateful to him for giving way.

:15:53. > :15:58.Could he tell us, though, why he is opposed to what the Government are

:15:59. > :16:06.seeking to do which as I understand it is permissive and not mandateory?

:16:07. > :16:09.Perhaps if my friend is patient, this is the purpose of my speech, is

:16:10. > :16:14.to explain the reasons why I do oppose the Government. But we need

:16:15. > :16:18.to look at where the Government is taking us, they're taking us through

:16:19. > :16:21.that per - that approach but we need to recognise it's based upon a

:16:22. > :16:26.premise and that's a premise we need to look at, the premise is that it

:16:27. > :16:31.is good for small businesses, it is good for families, it is good for

:16:32. > :16:38.workers, to deregulate Sunday trading because it's a one-way...

:16:39. > :16:42.Local authorities... The one-way valve is deregulation. There are on

:16:43. > :16:46.these benches very much localists around us who are pure localists who

:16:47. > :16:49.would perhaps want to see that freedom of being a local one where

:16:50. > :16:52.you can restrict or deregulate. The Government have sought to make the

:16:53. > :16:56.case, I want to look at that case how it's been approached, the

:16:57. > :17:00.consultation, the process, and make the case this is good and good in

:17:01. > :17:06.this bill for small businesses of which I do take objection. I thank

:17:07. > :17:10.my honourable friend for his speech and for his strong leadership on

:17:11. > :17:14.this issue. Does he agree with me that the Government would be more

:17:15. > :17:17.compelling in making their case had they abided by the undertakingingses

:17:18. > :17:23.twice by the Minister to publish what we are led to believe is sa

:17:24. > :17:29.positive and favourable impact assessment on these proposals which

:17:30. > :17:34.they have so far not done? Yes, the position is and I will come to this,

:17:35. > :17:37.we have the impact assessment has been published, it's been published

:17:38. > :17:43.today. That impact has been published. It's important because we

:17:44. > :17:45.have already had some scrutiny of this bill within committee stage.

:17:46. > :17:49.This was introduced at committee stage. It wasn't in the bill at

:17:50. > :17:54.second reading because it didn't start in this place t started in the

:17:55. > :17:58.House of Lords. It's been through all the stages in the House of Lords

:17:59. > :18:05.without any scrutiny of this Sunday trading measure. Then following the

:18:06. > :18:09.consultation we then had the promise of publication of the impact

:18:10. > :18:11.assessment as you would expect from any mesh dwrur, not least

:18:12. > :18:16.particularly important measure such as this one that has controversy. We

:18:17. > :18:20.have today published the impact assessments which include today

:18:21. > :18:24.several paragraphs about the family test which I amongst others have

:18:25. > :18:27.been asking for for sometime, back in October I asked that question

:18:28. > :18:32.when will that family impact test be published? It was said it's going to

:18:33. > :18:36.be personed before the committee stage. I then asked, in February I

:18:37. > :18:41.asked again, when will that be published? It will be published

:18:42. > :18:44.alongside, in fact, alongside before the Government's consultation, it

:18:45. > :18:47.didn't happen. Then it was going to be published shortly. Now we have

:18:48. > :18:51.had it published today. I don't think that's acceptable. I am very

:18:52. > :18:54.grateful to the honourable gentleman for giving way and pay tribute to

:18:55. > :18:58.him for his consistency on this subject. He stood for election in

:18:59. > :19:01.May and he will have known well there were people on his side of the

:19:02. > :19:05.House that would have liked to bring forward a measure like that and he

:19:06. > :19:09.must have been reassured that it wasn't in the Conservative Party

:19:10. > :19:14.party. So, can he say how he feels as a Democrat he would be able to

:19:15. > :19:18.face his constituents if he had chosen to vote for this Government

:19:19. > :19:24.measure, given that his views are well-known and the Government hadn't

:19:25. > :19:28.put this in their manifesto? My professional trade is a lawyer and I

:19:29. > :19:33.think that's a leading question coming from the honourable member!

:19:34. > :19:40.It wasn't in the manifesto. But it wasn't just not in our manifesto, it

:19:41. > :19:45.also was confirmed by the Prime Minister on 20th April, 2015, right

:19:46. > :19:49.in the middle of the campaign, he wrote indeed to the Keep Sunday

:19:50. > :19:53.Special campaign. We have no current plans to relax Sunday trading laws,

:19:54. > :19:55.we believe that the current system provides a reasonable balance

:19:56. > :20:00.between those who wish to see more opportunity to shop in large stores

:20:01. > :20:03.on a Sunday, and those who would like to see further restrictions.

:20:04. > :20:07.That pretty much sums up my position. That's my position which I

:20:08. > :20:11.have maintained and been consistent on like the Prime Minister was back

:20:12. > :20:16.in April. Thank you for giving way. I hope the honourable friend knows I

:20:17. > :20:23.respect him enormously and on campaigns on which I work with him.

:20:24. > :20:29.However, doesn't he agree with me that actually we should trust our

:20:30. > :20:35.constituents to make up their own minds? In life we all have to find

:20:36. > :20:42.our own balance. We are all capable of deciding whether we work or shop

:20:43. > :20:45.on a Sunday. It isn't actually the most complicated decision that our

:20:46. > :20:50.constituents will make in their lives. Wouldn't my honourable friend

:20:51. > :20:58.just trust his constituents to make wise decisions for them and their

:20:59. > :21:03.families? I am grateful to my honourable friend and I saw that but

:21:04. > :21:05.coming... LAUGHTER

:21:06. > :21:10.Look, we have a job to do in parliament. We don't just devolve

:21:11. > :21:14.every decision out to our constituents. In we listen to our

:21:15. > :21:18.constituents, not sure if he has looked at his mail bag, I have many

:21:19. > :21:22.shop workers telling me and faith groups and others saying why are we

:21:23. > :21:25.doing this? Why are we trying to unpick something which is fairly

:21:26. > :21:30.settled? It's not perfect, but why are we doing that? That's me

:21:31. > :21:33.listening to my constituents. Also, we have important principles as

:21:34. > :21:38.well. There is a complex arrangement on Sunday trading. It's a duty on us

:21:39. > :21:42.to look at it carefully, to consult widely, and also to scrutinise it

:21:43. > :21:46.fairly. None of those things have happened to the regard that did

:21:47. > :21:49.happen in the 90s and 80s. It shouldn't surprise us that we are in

:21:50. > :21:54.the situation now where there is a lot of concern, a lot of cross-party

:21:55. > :21:57.concern. I would be with my honourable friend to the extent that

:21:58. > :22:00.if it was a wholly devolving measure, but it's not. It's based on

:22:01. > :22:04.a principle that we would have to sign up to. Everyone who goes

:22:05. > :22:08.against my amendment today would have to sign up to - would have to

:22:09. > :22:11.agree with the premise and we are making this decision here in

:22:12. > :22:15.parliament, that we think it is good for businesses, it is good for

:22:16. > :22:20.families, it is good for workers to deIRAing late. You have to make that

:22:21. > :22:24.decision. -- to to deregulate. You have to make that decision. That's

:22:25. > :22:29.the premise of the case today. I will give way, yes, I will give way

:22:30. > :22:34.to my neighbour. Can I thank my neighbour, the

:22:35. > :22:37.honourable member and I am pleased to be a signatory to his amendment

:22:38. > :22:44.and support him here and I am sure he knows, 49% of retail workers

:22:45. > :22:48.surveyed are parents or carers and their Sunday is special to them. In

:22:49. > :22:53.relation to what is said about trusting constituents and they can

:22:54. > :22:58.make their own decision to work, I am sure my neighbour knows that even

:22:59. > :23:04.in workplaces with trade union reps to support members, many staff are

:23:05. > :23:10.pressured into not using the Sunday opt-out and, in fact, something like

:23:11. > :23:14.a third of workers, shop workers, are pressured into working Sundayses

:23:15. > :23:22.are having working hours cut. I am grateful. I have mentioned therefore

:23:23. > :23:26.there is an alliance gathered in relation to the amendment, she has

:23:27. > :23:32.made a good point. We may well have a choice, we may be able to make a

:23:33. > :23:35.choice to g to Church or shop or spend time with families and it's

:23:36. > :23:38.those people we need to be a voice for, those who don't have the

:23:39. > :23:43.choice, whether it's caring for responsibilities, or working

:23:44. > :23:45.responsibilities, we need to be very careful before we impose further

:23:46. > :23:53.requirements and obligations on them and it's important. That's why it's

:23:54. > :23:59.important not least when we have a family impact test. We take

:24:00. > :24:05.seriously the impact on families as the amendment said. I give way.

:24:06. > :24:11.There is another facet to this, on the one hand the government says it

:24:12. > :24:15.is trying to save the high streets, but this bill would threaten the

:24:16. > :24:20.supermarkets and therefore have an effect on the high streets, and

:24:21. > :24:25.there are ways for employees to force workers to work on a Sunday

:24:26. > :24:29.for extra hours, we know the tricks. Yes, I will come onto that, the case

:24:30. > :24:31.has been made by the government, that it will support the high Street

:24:32. > :24:39.and the challenges of online shopping. Going back to the

:24:40. > :24:42.campaigns, friends and others, when they were campaigning, my

:24:43. > :24:47.constituency is full of high streets, and I don't remember one,

:24:48. > :24:53.in fact there was anyone large outlet, Asda, which was mentioning

:24:54. > :25:00.this, and the rest, did not mention... It was about looking

:25:01. > :25:06.after the high street, they wanted to sort out business rates and car

:25:07. > :25:09.park in, things like that. I could look at the government review, the

:25:10. > :25:13.proper review they had, that took place to look at how we can

:25:14. > :25:17.regenerate the high Street, how can it be increased, this was a

:25:18. > :25:25.government review. If you go through the review, you are not seeing a

:25:26. > :25:28.case being made by that substantial review, one way of regenerating the

:25:29. > :25:36.high street is by directive 80 the hours for the little shops --

:25:37. > :25:39.deregulating the hours. Isn't it also misleading of the government to

:25:40. > :25:45.describe this as a devolutionary measure? The moment that one

:25:46. > :25:48.particular Council adopts these powers, every other neighbouring

:25:49. > :26:00.council will be forced to follow suit, is that not the case? Was that

:26:01. > :26:04.your point as well? Carry on. Thank you for allowing that intervention.

:26:05. > :26:09.It follows on from that point, before Christmas I was a member of

:26:10. > :26:11.the greater Manchester combined authority where government were

:26:12. > :26:18.consulting on the devolution of Sunday trading powers with that body

:26:19. > :26:24.and categorically it was not asked for and requested, it was forced on

:26:25. > :26:29.them. It could be a race to the bottom in terms of these powers, but

:26:30. > :26:31.which is not just simply see this as something we can leave to local

:26:32. > :26:36.authorities, there's a case the government is making that is good

:26:37. > :26:47.for high streets come and go to businesses and shop workers. The

:26:48. > :26:53.reality is, the government has be held to account for making the case

:26:54. > :26:58.for the devolving of the hours, and the reality is, looking at the

:26:59. > :27:01.substance of the case, it is not meet what I think is a high

:27:02. > :27:10.threshold that we should and pick the complex Sunday trading laws. It

:27:11. > :27:18.is very rare for him to be in any sort of unholy alliance, as we know.

:27:19. > :27:22.I'm very much of the view, the compromise made 30 years has worked

:27:23. > :27:27.fairly well, but does he not recognise that there is no sense of

:27:28. > :27:32.imposition? As my friend wheelchair East pointed out, this is a

:27:33. > :27:39.-- as my friend from Yorkshire East pointed out, this is a permissive

:27:40. > :27:44.approach, and there would be a demand, at high tourist times, that

:27:45. > :27:47.the local authorities should give permission, but it would be up to

:27:48. > :27:50.the local authority to manage that and I think this is a good

:27:51. > :27:53.compromise given the changes that have taken place in the last 30

:27:54. > :28:01.years not least with the internet, in shopping patterns. I hear your

:28:02. > :28:09.point. I have been open to the debate, and the case is made from

:28:10. > :28:16.shops around the West End, and Knightsbridge, places like Harrods,

:28:17. > :28:21.I can see them making that case, but the government aren't just resting

:28:22. > :28:26.on that. I do not think the economic case is strong enough. There's other

:28:27. > :28:31.research Oxford economics will say that you have got to look more

:28:32. > :28:35.widely at the economic impact, and not just see the benefits for the

:28:36. > :28:39.larger businesses. We don't just listen to big business, we are

:28:40. > :28:42.concerned about the shop workers and the small businesses and the impact

:28:43. > :28:51.on them should not be underestimated. That is important.

:28:52. > :28:58.Yes, new voice. Well, not that new. Can we knock on the head the idea

:28:59. > :29:03.about permission, the issue is not that there is permission, the issue

:29:04. > :29:06.is who is exercising that permission? The permission is being

:29:07. > :29:16.exercised by local authorities and the individual shop workers are

:29:17. > :29:22.people that want to run their business seven days a week, do they

:29:23. > :29:25.have that permission, as well? We need to look at the impact beyond

:29:26. > :29:34.the council 's Abbey and whether they want to or not -- and whether

:29:35. > :29:37.they want. We should look at what businesses and shop workers want,

:29:38. > :29:42.and in terms of the imposition, I have looked at a recent survey,

:29:43. > :29:46.10,000 shop workers, 90% do not want to work more on Sunday and the

:29:47. > :29:48.current six-hour restriction is important to them because they say

:29:49. > :29:55.that Sunday evenings are there only guaranteed family time, especially

:29:56. > :30:01.if they have children or partners who work weekdays. Most staff are

:30:02. > :30:05.able to work on a Sunday rotor. It's the imposition on the shop workers

:30:06. > :30:13.and businesses that we have also got to look at. He is making a very good

:30:14. > :30:16.introduction with his items, but I understand talking about larger

:30:17. > :30:21.stores that some chief executives are now expressing their concerns to

:30:22. > :30:25.the Prime Minister about this, Sainsbury's, Jon Lewis, and

:30:26. > :30:30.Sainsbury's have said, in line with the survey you have spoken about,

:30:31. > :30:36.they have questioned whether there's an for Sunday working, and quite

:30:37. > :30:40.rightly. Members opposite should not assume that the opt out means

:30:41. > :30:43.anything because most retail staff say it's impossible to use the opt

:30:44. > :30:50.out, because they find ways to make you suffer if you try to opt out of

:30:51. > :30:53.Sunday working. It is true. You should not cast all the same

:30:54. > :30:58.retailers with the same brush, Tesco's have also expressed concern,

:30:59. > :31:02.and some no doubt have a commercial interest. What they share is a

:31:03. > :31:06.concern that the devolutionary approach by the government is not so

:31:07. > :31:14.practical for these larger as Mrs and distribution centres -- for

:31:15. > :31:17.these larger businesses. Going back to the bill, it was about cutting

:31:18. > :31:21.down on red tape and regulation, and for them it would be in the opposite

:31:22. > :31:25.direction. When I get into my speech I will go into the issue of the

:31:26. > :31:32.protections fought shop workers, and before I do, I will hear from my

:31:33. > :31:41.near neighbour. I'm very grateful. As my neighbour, you will remember

:31:42. > :31:47.in 2011 walking down high streets like mine after the riots and indeed

:31:48. > :31:53.parts of Enfield town and there was not one local shopkeeper who had

:31:54. > :31:59.been ransacked who said that if you do this, if you devolve power in

:32:00. > :32:04.this way, and allow big retailers to open up even longer, it will help my

:32:05. > :32:10.business. Those businesses were struggling anyway, and this sort of

:32:11. > :32:16.act could only make it worse. Is he also concerned with the definition

:32:17. > :32:25.of tourist? What is a tourist? I tourist will I go to Enfield town to

:32:26. > :32:31.shop? -- am I tourist. I leave my friend to make the case in relation

:32:32. > :32:35.to her amendment, but I want to get into some more of the substance, but

:32:36. > :32:40.it is around process first of all. This is a controversial moment. No

:32:41. > :32:43.one who has been around for a while and has listen to people's concerns

:32:44. > :32:54.would deny this is a controversial matter. It divides opinions in this

:32:55. > :32:58.House. I will make progress. What I understand in government

:32:59. > :33:01.consultation guidance, when there is a controversial matter, the

:33:02. > :33:06.consultation period would be allocated a 12 week period, but this

:33:07. > :33:10.consultation that has led to where we are now was just six weeks, and

:33:11. > :33:15.not just that, it happened in the summer holidays, the first week of

:33:16. > :33:22.August, and for two weeks, this important measure ran, why did that

:33:23. > :33:31.happen? Was there an immediate rush to get this onto the statute book?

:33:32. > :33:36.It did manage to generate 7000 responses which is quite

:33:37. > :33:41.extraordinary, given the time limit. We have this controversial measure,

:33:42. > :33:47.and with that amount of response, we have got to raise the questions, why

:33:48. > :33:53.were we not able to give it the scrutiny it deserved in both houses?

:33:54. > :33:56.Why have we tacked it onto the citizens devolution bill, and now

:33:57. > :34:02.tacked onto the enterprise Bill, having already been through the

:34:03. > :34:05.Lords? Someone might say that limits the scrutiny of an important

:34:06. > :34:09.measure, but this is not just my concerns. The government made the

:34:10. > :34:15.point very clearly, when we last have the opportunity to give the

:34:16. > :34:22.scrutiny, in the London Olympics and Paralympics Bill, that got scrutiny

:34:23. > :34:27.from both sides in 2012 and the Minister underlined the temporary

:34:28. > :34:30.nature of those changes and there were assurances from the government

:34:31. > :34:38.that this was not a precursor to a further deregulation move. There was

:34:39. > :34:41.an assurance from him, there would be Parliamentary debate if there was

:34:42. > :34:47.ever another Sunday trading legislative proposal. But we haven't

:34:48. > :34:52.got that. That is a promise which has not been capped. That is to the

:34:53. > :34:57.detriment of everyone, to be able to come to consideration of whether

:34:58. > :35:03.tourist zones or pilot areas, all these things need proper scrutiny

:35:04. > :35:14.and proper time. Did you want to make your point? I wanted to invite

:35:15. > :35:18.my friend to agree with me in saying this is about assisting town centre

:35:19. > :35:23.retail, 53% of local authority Chief executives said they would use the

:35:24. > :35:27.new dispensation of liberalisation to boost out shopping centres, and

:35:28. > :35:33.that can't be what many members would wish to happen. That is light,

:35:34. > :35:36.and there are not on facts which are careful attention. -- that is right,

:35:37. > :35:52.and there are no contracts. They fail to tell us what proportion

:35:53. > :35:58.of responses to the consultation were actually in favour, they say

:35:59. > :36:02.the organisations and local authorities are in favour, but what

:36:03. > :36:10.about individual responses? We can all do this individually, we all

:36:11. > :36:14.have a voice, it does not need to just be the big culprits. --

:36:15. > :36:27.culprits. This consultation was published, the

:36:28. > :36:30.question was, were you in favour or not question not surely that should

:36:31. > :36:35.be published how many were in favour? The question was this,

:36:36. > :36:41.should local areas have the power to extend trading hours on Sunday? It

:36:42. > :36:43.would be useful to note how many people in the consultation were

:36:44. > :36:50.actually individually in favour of that or not. This is the answer we

:36:51. > :36:55.had from the Minister, which is one of the most extraordinary answers

:36:56. > :36:59.I've ever seen in my ten years. The Department does not hold data from

:37:00. > :37:04.this consultation, broken down by specific question, as a large

:37:05. > :37:09.proportion of respondents chose to respond in their own words.

:37:10. > :37:19.I presume they were English and there was not a problem with

:37:20. > :37:24.translation. Rather than address the consultation question, it did not

:37:25. > :37:27.indicate the type of organisation they represented, and that is

:37:28. > :37:32.unacceptable. There should be a proper accountable process that

:37:33. > :37:38.enables us to judge the response to this measure.

:37:39. > :37:45.Thank you very much. I'm very grateful to my friend for giving

:37:46. > :37:53.way, can I say that I very much respect my friend and his viewpoint,

:37:54. > :38:01.notwithstanding that, can I ask him to explain why he thinks high

:38:02. > :38:06.streets should be held back under restrictions, when most internet

:38:07. > :38:10.shopping takes place on a Sunday? The consultation he refers to, and

:38:11. > :38:14.people, when they have shocked by the internet, voting with their

:38:15. > :38:20.fingers, don't they want to be able to shop freedom of restrictions and

:38:21. > :38:24.doesn't he want to support the high Street in his constituency and

:38:25. > :38:32.elsewhere in functioning without these restrictions? And he will

:38:33. > :38:36.know, the review the government took place in the high streets, did not

:38:37. > :38:41.act to make the case for deregulation, but it made the case

:38:42. > :38:43.for dealing with issues of parking and business rates which the

:38:44. > :38:48.government is working on and making great progress. When we are dealing

:38:49. > :38:54.with the issue of internet shopping, can you make the case on the basis

:38:55. > :38:57.that the hours when large shops are not open, say, after six o'clock,

:38:58. > :39:02.there is a impact, everyone is on their bottom, clicking away after

:39:03. > :39:08.six o'clock, because I can't get to a large shop question not that

:39:09. > :39:11.doesn't make sense. -- a large shop? There is a broader way we can look

:39:12. > :39:18.at revitalising the high Street and this is not the way to do it.

:39:19. > :39:22.Surveys of internet shoppers show there is no relationship between

:39:23. > :39:26.them internet shopping on a Sunday because they can't or want to go to

:39:27. > :39:30.extended hours in local stores. In fact, if you follow that argument,

:39:31. > :39:34.those on the internet between midnight and 3.00am in the morning,

:39:35. > :39:36.is that an argument for shops being open during that time? Does the

:39:37. > :39:44.honourable gentleman agree with me that is not the case? I agree. I

:39:45. > :39:51.just give way one more time. Thank you. Doesn't this really boil down

:39:52. > :40:03.to an issue of local democracy? How can it any longer... How can it any

:40:04. > :40:10.longer be... Order. Just as Escortious to the House, the House

:40:11. > :40:14.must be curtious. How can it longer be right for politicians in

:40:15. > :40:20.Westminster to block local people in Cheltenham, for example, to amend

:40:21. > :40:26.trading hours if that is what they choose to do? I will try to explain,

:40:27. > :40:30.but he will also, I need to make progress. You have been... One last

:40:31. > :40:35.time, yes. I thank the honourable gentleman for giving way. The point

:40:36. > :40:38.about consultation, we do have some data, there are over 7,000 responses

:40:39. > :40:42.to the consultation, and that they believe the vast majority were

:40:43. > :40:46.opposed as do I, does he share that belief? Absolutely. That is the case

:40:47. > :40:51.and it would be good for that to be more transparent. What concerned me

:40:52. > :40:54.and I was very much welcome the fact that we as Government, the Prime

:40:55. > :40:58.Minister has led the way properly, saying we need to publish family

:40:59. > :41:03.impact test statements when new policy is proposed and needs to look

:41:04. > :41:07.carefully at that family impact statement. That is important and the

:41:08. > :41:13.family impact of this really does matter. It's important that is dealt

:41:14. > :41:19.with seriously and considered. So as I said, I made the questions to the

:41:20. > :41:23.Business Secretary on a number of owe cases, September, 15th October,

:41:24. > :41:26.and 10th February, asking for the publication of that, it was a shame

:41:27. > :41:30.whilst the understanding was in written answers that we would have

:41:31. > :41:34.had publication alongside the consultation response, we did not

:41:35. > :41:39.have that and we only just had it right now, right at the 11th hour

:41:40. > :41:44.before we debate this. It needs scrutiny because the family impact

:41:45. > :41:48.statement is important. It does make some important points. It does

:41:49. > :41:52.accept that there is a potential negative impact on the family and it

:41:53. > :41:57.recognises a large number of individual responses to the

:41:58. > :42:02.consultation, felt that families would be negatively impacted. Thank

:42:03. > :42:05.you. I also respect the comments of my colleague today but I am

:42:06. > :42:10.wondering can he please explain to me why we are concerned about the

:42:11. > :42:14.family impact of those working in retail, yet we don't regulate for

:42:15. > :42:19.those in other shift work in sectors such as the NHS, transport,

:42:20. > :42:29.catering, hospitality, the list goes on? A good point, but it's often low

:42:30. > :42:37.paid workers, it's often actually women who are impacted by Sunday

:42:38. > :42:41.trading. This is also, there is a knock-on impact on other services,

:42:42. > :42:45.that are reliant being involved in the supply chain into large stores.

:42:46. > :42:51.There will be an impact that needs careful consideration. Dealing just

:42:52. > :42:54.with the objections, beyond the process, which is significant and is

:42:55. > :42:59.important when deciding how people vote later today. Dealing with the

:43:00. > :43:02.substance, the case made on an economic basis, but it's also

:43:03. > :43:06.important to look, not just at the evidence provided by the new West

:43:07. > :43:11.End companies, but also economics that I mentioned Earlier. They said

:43:12. > :43:15.they projected under the Government's proposal 8800 jobs lost

:43:16. > :43:21.in the convenience sector, with a net loss of 3270 jobs for the wider

:43:22. > :43:24.grocery sector because of displaced trade from small to large

:43:25. > :43:31.businesses. I need to carry on. Sorry. I am going to make progress.

:43:32. > :43:35.So other members have a Hans to get on in this important debate. Bsh --

:43:36. > :43:39.have a chance. I am not a great expert on businesses, I am taking

:43:40. > :43:44.the evidence I am seeing. I do lips been to different representatives of

:43:45. > :43:48.those -- I do listen to different representatives of those businesses.

:43:49. > :43:55.The association of convenience stores, the national confederation

:43:56. > :43:59.of subpost Masters, the federation wholesale distributors and

:44:00. > :44:02.newsagents, many of us have been to receptions they regularly have here

:44:03. > :44:05.would have expressed solidarity in challenges they face in their trade.

:44:06. > :44:10.When they're all united to say this change is bad news for our economy,

:44:11. > :44:13.then I take that very seriously and I think honourable members should do

:44:14. > :44:16.as well. You know, my concern about this

:44:17. > :44:19.particular proposal is that it hasn't been properly thought

:44:20. > :44:23.through. We are in danger of being seen which I am sure we are not, in

:44:24. > :44:26.danger of being seen to respond to the voice of bigger business rather

:44:27. > :44:32.than small business on our high streets. When the near unanimous

:44:33. > :44:36.opposition of small businesses is seen in tandem with the fact it's

:44:37. > :44:44.nearly as a quarter of large businesses, it has to be said large

:44:45. > :44:48.businesses also oppose, then I really think we need to very much

:44:49. > :44:53.reflect carefully before going at this late stage through the lack of

:44:54. > :44:58.scrutiny to have this measure tacked on to the bill. Now as I come

:44:59. > :45:01.towards the conclusion, as a member of parliament said before as many

:45:02. > :45:04.others, we have high streets, people have spoken up for the high streets.

:45:05. > :45:09.I want to speak up for the high street. I do very much want to speak

:45:10. > :45:13.up for the high street but I do not think my high streets, when I go

:45:14. > :45:16.back there are going to say well done, thank you very much for

:45:17. > :45:19.deregulating hours, for giving more hours to the large shops, thank you

:45:20. > :45:24.very much. Why aren't you spending more time and attention as we are

:45:25. > :45:28.seeking to do as a Government on lowering business rates, on getting

:45:29. > :45:32.better parking and less red tape which is where the Government is

:45:33. > :45:36.focussed on but why are we getting distracked by saying this is a high

:45:37. > :45:41.street supporting measure? I mentioned about shop workers but I

:45:42. > :45:45.want to pick up on various issues. For example, there is those - the

:45:46. > :45:50.issue around separated parents, one parent would have access rights on a

:45:51. > :45:54.weekend, we can't ignore that. One shop worker in that situation has,

:45:55. > :45:59.these are her words, I work every Saturday and one in four Sundays, I

:46:00. > :46:02.often struggle to arrange child care and fear it has an effect on my

:46:03. > :46:06.relationship with my children. Those voices we need to listen to and also

:46:07. > :46:11.recognise that in relation to the opt-outs and I welcome the fact the

:46:12. > :46:15.government is seeking to provide additional protections, but there is

:46:16. > :46:18.also legal advice to say that this may not allay their concerns and

:46:19. > :46:22.there is already protections as we stand, indeed, even with the

:46:23. > :46:26.additional protections, there is an issue about those applying for those

:46:27. > :46:30.jobs, whether they're going to be out of, not considered because they

:46:31. > :46:33.wouldn't be considered to work on a Sunday or implied pressures we

:46:34. > :46:42.already heard in interventions to work longer. That is important, I do

:46:43. > :46:46.give way. I think he has assembled a wholly alliance and I congratulate

:46:47. > :46:50.him. Hasz he seen the member quoted as saying I would be under pressure

:46:51. > :46:56.to do more hours on Sunday making it imfob go to Church, isn't that an

:46:57. > :47:01.undesirable aspect of this move? The Government have sought to try to

:47:02. > :47:08.deal with those religious preks in the measures within - I don't seek

:47:09. > :47:13.my amendment to delete. Whether it's ex-prison it or implied pressures --

:47:14. > :47:17.whether it's explicit or implied. The Government did have a pilot in

:47:18. > :47:22.one sense, it was road tested this measure with the Olympics, this

:47:23. > :47:26.issue of opt-outs is relevant there. During the 2012 Olympics, a specific

:47:27. > :47:30.opt-out was created to enable staff to avoid working longer Olympic

:47:31. > :47:34.Sundays if they did not wish to. It's claimed they would cover those

:47:35. > :47:38.hours with staff who volunteered to work. I understand 564

:47:39. > :47:43.representatives in stores had opened longer, found in spite of the right

:47:44. > :47:46.to opt-out of Olympic Sundays in over half the stores, staff had come

:47:47. > :47:51.under pressure to work the extra hours, those who asked not to work

:47:52. > :47:57.extra hours were threatened or punished by being refused overtime.

:47:58. > :48:00.I will give way for the last time. Would he accept that as a result of

:48:01. > :48:05.that pressure that over half of those who work in shops in Northern

:48:06. > :48:08.Ireland were already the opt-outs are meant to be there, have felt

:48:09. > :48:12.they've come under pressure, that's why 76% of those who work in the

:48:13. > :48:17.retail trade said that they did not want to have the hours extended

:48:18. > :48:22.purely because they know that there will be even greater pressure on

:48:23. > :48:27.them if there was to be wider hours accepted by local authorities? A

:48:28. > :48:30.good point and also it's impacted by the domino effect of the

:48:31. > :48:35.Government's proposals. One other shop worker told me as the idea that

:48:36. > :48:40.Sunday working is optional and this is enshrined in law is laughable,

:48:41. > :48:43.they make you pay one way or the other for objecting to working on

:48:44. > :48:48.Sundays. When a policy is opposed by the small business opportunity and

:48:49. > :48:53.opposed by a good number of large businesses, when a policy is opposed

:48:54. > :48:57.by the majority of shop workers, when a policy is opposed by

:48:58. > :49:01.churches, other faith communities, not least the chief Rabbi who spoke

:49:02. > :49:06.about his concern that we should properly respect the character of

:49:07. > :49:09.Sundays, it may have been deregulated in ways but there is

:49:10. > :49:13.still a characteristic we can retain and preserve and Sunday is still

:49:14. > :49:17.special for many and the Government should not chip away unfairly,

:49:18. > :49:20.unreasonably without proper due process in what does ensure that

:49:21. > :49:26.there is a proper place for Sundays, for families, for businesses, and

:49:27. > :49:31.for workers. We should ensure we look at this carefully. Finally, I

:49:32. > :49:36.recall this kind of issue has come before the House on other occasions,

:49:37. > :49:40.it came before the Government, MrsThatcher's Government on an

:49:41. > :49:45.entire bill in the Commons. And MrsThatcher was defeated with a

:49:46. > :49:54.large majority. I remember indeed in 1986 I attended my first ever public

:49:55. > :49:58.meeting, my first foray into the political world, I attended,

:49:59. > :50:01.attended by my local member of parliament, Michael Portillo. He

:50:02. > :50:09.came before this packed out meeting and completely misjudged the public

:50:10. > :50:12.mood. He completely... He completely misjudged the view of the public,

:50:13. > :50:19.the view of people who had never been to any political public meeting

:50:20. > :50:23.before. He saw for himself the huge concern out there in the community

:50:24. > :50:26.to this public and he misjudged what people are saying, misjudged the

:50:27. > :50:31.strength of feeling about amening Sunday trading. Whilst time has

:50:32. > :50:34.moved on, there is still a strength of feeling out there from shop

:50:35. > :50:40.workers, from families and from shawl businesses and others. It was

:50:41. > :50:44.my formative experience of politics then and indeed we have had a

:50:45. > :50:48.statement from the Health Secretary about learning from mistakes. I urge

:50:49. > :50:53.the Government not to make the same mistake again today. I beg to move.

:50:54. > :50:59.The question is that the amendment be made. Just before we proceed with

:51:00. > :51:04.the debate, I have now to announce the result of the deferred Giggs on

:51:05. > :51:11.the question relating to EU measures to combat terrorism -- division. The

:51:12. > :51:18.ayes 302. The nos 217. So the ayes have it.

:51:19. > :51:22.Before I call the honourable gentleman, as the next speaker in

:51:23. > :51:27.the debate, I would point out that we have two hours and 20 minutes

:51:28. > :51:33.left of this debate. If she wishes to do so, I will shortly call the

:51:34. > :51:38.Minister to speak from the front bench, a simple nod of the head, or

:51:39. > :51:42.he wishes to speak, a nod of the head will suffice. I would appeal to

:51:43. > :51:48.colleagues to have regard to each other's interests. We don't keep a

:51:49. > :51:51.formal list at report stage but I suspect there will be intense

:51:52. > :51:55.interest in these exchanges so colleagues should look after the

:51:56. > :51:59.interests of each other. MrJonathan Reynolds. Thank you. I will

:52:00. > :52:03.certainly indefiniter to do so. I rise in support of the amendment in

:52:04. > :52:06.the name of the honourable member for Enfield Southgate to which I

:52:07. > :52:10.have added my name along with the names of many other members on both

:52:11. > :52:14.sides of the House. I am completely opposed to any changes in the Sunday

:52:15. > :52:18.trading regulations whether it's their extension or their devolution

:52:19. > :52:21.to local councils. I am sceptical of what benefits, if any, this would

:52:22. > :52:26.bring to our economy, but more importantly, my concern lies with

:52:27. > :52:30.retail workers and with my desire to keep Sunday special. As a Greater

:52:31. > :52:34.Manchester MP, I am a huge supporter of devolution, particularly to a

:52:35. > :52:38.city as great as ours. However, to me this does not feel like

:52:39. > :52:41.beneficial devolution. But rather a dishonest manoeuvre from a

:52:42. > :52:45.Government that seems obsessed with bringing in this policy even though

:52:46. > :52:48.there appears to be no public demand for it. I also have very real

:52:49. > :52:52.concerns about the way the Government have gone about this

:52:53. > :52:57.process and in particular their flawed consultation which I will

:52:58. > :53:03.address. I should say I am happy to declare an interest in this in that,

:53:04. > :53:06.they have led the way from the front of this campaign representing

:53:07. > :53:10.concerns of ordinary retail workers and ensuring their voice is heard.

:53:11. > :53:14.Now there have been lots of very good, very strength arguments put

:53:15. > :53:18.forward in the excellent speech, and I intend to focus my open spoo

:53:19. > :53:21.speech on the family and faith aspects of Sunday too. Firstly, I

:53:22. > :53:25.want to express my serious concerns about the way the Government has

:53:26. > :53:30.gone about attempting to introduce this change. I believe it is at best

:53:31. > :53:33.mischievous and at worst a borderline fantasy when the

:53:34. > :53:36.Government say this bill in itself will not enact any changes to

:53:37. > :53:40.trading regulations but leave that open to local councils to decide.

:53:41. > :53:44.They know as well as we all do that this will result in extended opening

:53:45. > :53:48.hours on Sundays because as soon as one council does it, neighbouring

:53:49. > :53:51.councils will soon fall, one after another, until this is the uniform.

:53:52. > :53:54.I won't give way because of time constraints. The Government should

:53:55. > :53:59.stop consulting the intelligence of the House and treat this part of the

:54:00. > :54:10.bill for what it is, an attempt to extend Sunday trading

:54:11. > :54:17.... When they figure the changes they are intended to make would be

:54:18. > :54:20.unpopular and controversial. If the government would like to extend

:54:21. > :54:24.Sunday trading revelation injured have the courage to introduce

:54:25. > :54:32.explicit legislation so members can scrutinise the proposals -- extend

:54:33. > :54:34.Sunday trading laws they should have the garage.

:54:35. > :54:44.I'm grateful for the member for giving way, to but

:54:45. > :54:49.I would advocate this policy as a measure to get more people into

:54:50. > :54:53.have the option to decide, new might have the option to decide, new might

:54:54. > :55:00.laugh, but it will occur. -- you might. I admired the attempt to get

:55:01. > :55:05.more people involved, but my point is that this is not real power, this

:55:06. > :55:10.is an attempt to introduce a national liberalisation through the

:55:11. > :55:12.back door veneer of devolution. Another disappointment is the

:55:13. > :55:18.government's consultation which we have mentioned, I have described to

:55:19. > :55:21.me as a whitewash. The consultation concludes the majority responses

:55:22. > :55:25.were in favour of the proposal to devolve this power but in answer

:55:26. > :55:30.during an in question the Minister could not tell me how many of the

:55:31. > :55:33.7000 responses were against this proposal, so how can make include

:55:34. > :55:37.the majority of respondents were in favour when they can't even give the

:55:38. > :55:40.House the numbers? I was very disappointed with the answer and I

:55:41. > :55:46.believe it should not be beyond the capabilities of the Department for

:55:47. > :55:53.business to Bakambu people are in favour or against and I hope that we

:55:54. > :55:54.can rectify this -- to work at Hamley people are in favour or

:55:55. > :56:02.against. When the Sunday trading rules were

:56:03. > :56:08.relaxed in the Olympics, we were promised this would be a temporary

:56:09. > :56:16.measure, but here we are, this ignores the retail star, most of

:56:17. > :56:20.them to. Want an extension of trading hours on a Sunday -- retail

:56:21. > :56:25.star. To them it is a special day, as it is to most people in my

:56:26. > :56:28.household. I have four young children and a couple of dogs, my

:56:29. > :56:32.Sundays are not restful and peaceful, but they are special, but

:56:33. > :56:41.I'm for the families to spend together and this should be the same

:56:42. > :56:44.for retail workers. I share your desire to keep Sunday special, but

:56:45. > :56:49.isn't that a matter of personal choice for him and for me

:56:50. > :56:55.individually and not for Parliament imposed by legislation? I would

:56:56. > :56:58.simply advise the member, if he approaches this with good

:56:59. > :57:01.intentions, to talk to some of the retail workers and see how they feel

:57:02. > :57:05.about the autonomy they have to decide whether they would get to

:57:06. > :57:18.work longer Sundays or not. None of us to -- none of us here today after

:57:19. > :57:23.work Sunday we don't want. Sunday remains a special day, different to

:57:24. > :57:27.any other day the Wicker man retail workers can spend some time with

:57:28. > :57:31.their families. -- to any other day of the week and retail workers can

:57:32. > :57:38.spend. Retailers do very well on Sundays with lots of footfall in the

:57:39. > :57:41.shop window, which makes for effective trading, and there's also

:57:42. > :57:45.the effect this will have on smaller businesses who will see their

:57:46. > :57:48.businesses suffer, and the most recent example of relaxation of

:57:49. > :57:55.Sunday trading actually saw retail sales decline. I declare my

:57:56. > :57:59.interest, and also comfortable declaring my interest as a practice

:58:00. > :58:02.in Christian, this forms part of my opposition to any changes to Sunday

:58:03. > :58:08.trading, which I share with all members of the House. We live in a

:58:09. > :58:15.diverse country and I'm glad, but we should recognise that Christianity

:58:16. > :58:19.is the largest religion in this country and this is a special day,

:58:20. > :58:26.we go to church and the opportunity should not be denied to people who

:58:27. > :58:30.have to work. I'm grateful to my friend and I am part of the unholy

:58:31. > :58:36.alliance to try and keep the special nature of a Sunday, but I would say

:58:37. > :58:40.to him, for those of a Christian ethos, it is not necessarily about

:58:41. > :58:44.the ability on the promotion of church, it is about a deep-rooted

:58:45. > :58:50.sense of who we believe people to be, that we are created with the

:58:51. > :58:54.ability to rest as well as work and also, frankly, that our choices have

:58:55. > :58:57.an impact on other people's choices, the freedom we seek to exercise for

:58:58. > :59:06.ourselves is paid for by other people. I endorse those points, is

:59:07. > :59:12.worth noting that church attendance in many cities is actually steadily

:59:13. > :59:17.riding, and I will try to conclude. The government has a responsibility

:59:18. > :59:21.to listen to faith groups, and the fact is they have failed to do so,

:59:22. > :59:24.these changes will place additional stress on workers and families on

:59:25. > :59:29.what is a traditional day of rest. I will not give way. A day to spend

:59:30. > :59:35.quality time to family members and close friends. For Faith and for

:59:36. > :59:39.family and for the rights of a great many retail workers, I will be

:59:40. > :59:43.voting for this moment and I will be urging the House to show the courage

:59:44. > :59:52.required to defeat the government on this issue. I call the Minister of

:59:53. > :59:58.State, Brandon Davis. -- Brandon Lewis. I appreciate being called

:59:59. > :00:02.early in the debate and I hope this will be able to help the debate by

:00:03. > :00:05.outlining our thinking and the journey of travel that the

:00:06. > :00:12.government would like to take on this issue. Opening, it is important

:00:13. > :00:19.that we recall why this measure is before the House, why we are looking

:00:20. > :00:22.at Sunday trading laws. It is important bearing mind that the laws

:00:23. > :00:28.on trading in England and Wales were last in 1994, back when the only

:00:29. > :00:31.time we have heard of Amazon is when we were talking of a river, and the

:00:32. > :00:37.high streets faced no external pressure. The internet is

:00:38. > :00:40.liberating, changing the way we live and work, but the pressures on our

:00:41. > :00:47.high street are rising and the internet plays a part. Our measures

:00:48. > :00:54.will help by giving local councils the right to expand Sunday trading.

:00:55. > :01:00.All of these conditions were apparent just ten months ago when

:01:01. > :01:03.this party stood on a manifesto which are presented, there was no

:01:04. > :01:09.mention of any change to the Sunday trading laws which represents a

:01:10. > :01:15.fundamental change to the social practice of our country. Why has the

:01:16. > :01:20.government now found these reasons to introduce a measure in this

:01:21. > :01:28.absurd fashion? I will come to some of that, but I would say, to my

:01:29. > :01:31.friend, who I have huge respect for, we have said clearly in our

:01:32. > :01:34.manifesto that we were determined to drive economic growth we believe

:01:35. > :01:39.this is an important part of economic growth and that is why we

:01:40. > :01:43.refer to this last summer. In moving this power to local authorities, it

:01:44. > :01:48.is clear local authorities believe they are the right body to hold this

:01:49. > :01:54.power. They are the body that represent local people and who know

:01:55. > :02:01.their area 's best and they want this power and almost 200 local

:02:02. > :02:06.authorities have asked for this power to be devolved, including

:02:07. > :02:13.councils like Carlisle and Chorley, and also greater magister combined

:02:14. > :02:16.authority. -- greater Manchester. My friend has a wonderful job, but he

:02:17. > :02:21.wants to spend time on a Sunday with his family and I have heard so many

:02:22. > :02:27.members of family say that, they want to keep Sunday special for

:02:28. > :02:34.their families, so why should shop workers be any different? Not only

:02:35. > :02:37.do people work in shops on Sundays already, and indeed in many areas

:02:38. > :02:47.for longer than the opening hours because of the work -- the way shops

:02:48. > :02:52.work, and in fact some of them would like more time themselves to go to

:02:53. > :03:02.the retail outlets, and the clear indication from the way the internet

:03:03. > :03:06.is growing, Amazon have a -- again announced they are opening a new

:03:07. > :03:11.place in Manchester. I will give way in a moment. Councils want this

:03:12. > :03:16.power, they want the ability to zone and decide in their area whether

:03:17. > :03:22.they should have Sunday trading if they want, that is to promote their

:03:23. > :03:28.high streets at the expense of our out-of-town commercial sites. No one

:03:29. > :03:33.knows more about their local area than locally elected leaders. It is

:03:34. > :03:38.an opportunity for benefit for independent businesses, one of the

:03:39. > :03:42.big voices calling for this is the horticultural traders Association

:03:43. > :03:48.who are mainly independent businesses and would like this

:03:49. > :03:53.growth. I think he has hit the nail on the head on two occasions.

:03:54. > :03:59.Listing to this debate, you would think that we were proposing to

:04:00. > :04:04.introduce Sunday trading. -- listening. He is right, and I say

:04:05. > :04:07.this as a former district councillor, it is not for this House

:04:08. > :04:15.to decide what is best for local areas. Local areas have their

:04:16. > :04:22.representatives. I agree, I think it is right, and one of the things I

:04:23. > :04:25.have been most passionate about, as have the Prime Minister and the

:04:26. > :04:30.Chancellor, we believe in devolving power and we we just wish our

:04:31. > :04:37.friends in Scotland also believed in devolving power. Voices representing

:04:38. > :04:43.independent businesses are very keen to benefit from this growth, as

:04:44. > :04:47.well. I will go back to the very important point made by his friend

:04:48. > :04:51.for Enfield Southgate in his very measured speech, when he reminded

:04:52. > :04:56.the House of the Prime Minister's clear commitment just weeks before

:04:57. > :05:00.the general election when he said I can assure you we have no plans to

:05:01. > :05:07.relax Sunday trading laws and we believe the current system provides

:05:08. > :05:12.a reasonable balance, he said. Doesn't he think it matters that if

:05:13. > :05:21.the Prime Minister says one thing a few weeks before the general

:05:22. > :05:26.election and then says something else afterwards? The Prime Minister

:05:27. > :05:28.was very clear, when he thought it was time to review Sunday trading

:05:29. > :05:34.laws come in light of how things have moved on. I'm very aware of the

:05:35. > :05:40.correct point about the times afternoon. It is clear, if you look

:05:41. > :05:44.at the track record of this government, no party cares more

:05:45. > :05:47.about worker protection than this Conservative government, we are the

:05:48. > :05:51.party that is the party of the national living wage and our

:05:52. > :05:56.Chancellor has delivered that, and it is our measure that will protect

:05:57. > :06:02.shop workers, no one will be forced to work on Sunday or indeed everyone

:06:03. > :06:05.will have the right to no. We will reduce the dark period for large

:06:06. > :06:13.shops so shop workers need give employees only one month's notice to

:06:14. > :06:19.not work -- we will which is the period. Members will be voting

:06:20. > :06:23.against improving workers rights, because that will go, as well.

:06:24. > :06:29.Anybody who works on a Sunday already will have a new right to

:06:30. > :06:34.turn down ex-towers to which they don't wish to commit, and Labour and

:06:35. > :06:45.the SNP proposal that -- to turn down hours. They would deny everyone

:06:46. > :06:52.the right to spend Sunday as they choose. I thank the Minister for

:06:53. > :07:00.giving way. I've a number of convenience stores which are below

:07:01. > :07:05.the 3000 threshold, and many small businesses, could he elaborates

:07:06. > :07:09.further on what conversations he has had with those businesses about the

:07:10. > :07:16.proposed changes? You will appreciate, as I was the high

:07:17. > :07:25.streets Minister, we work with the high streets for and I speak to

:07:26. > :07:32.small businesses all the time. Can I say to the Minister, many of the

:07:33. > :07:36.independent traders have very little extra resources and they will be

:07:37. > :07:41.forced to open to compete with these very large stores? What about the

:07:42. > :07:44.lifestyle of those people who will end up working seven days a week in

:07:45. > :07:51.order to try and keep their businesses running? I'm surprised by

:07:52. > :07:56.comments, it was his local authority which has said they want this power,

:07:57. > :08:01.which he is trying to stop them having. Though small shops have the

:08:02. > :08:13.ability to open now and they are in competition with a 24-hour internet

:08:14. > :08:17.shopping -- most small shops. Amazon open on a Sunday and they deliver on

:08:18. > :08:22.Sunday and we want other shops to be to compete with that. I wonder if he

:08:23. > :08:30.has at any conversation with the leaders of the SNP as to why the

:08:31. > :08:35.liberalised trading laws happened in Scotland and why are they prepared

:08:36. > :08:39.to close them on any of the other issues apart from those which they

:08:40. > :08:46.want to address? She makes a good point. Convenience stores actually

:08:47. > :08:49.have more independent shops in Scotland the head of population in

:08:50. > :08:55.England, and so the liberalisation in Scotland has worked. Unless they

:08:56. > :09:00.are going to go backwards and change the law in Scotland.

:09:01. > :09:05.If we are being asked to vote for something that wasn't in our

:09:06. > :09:08.manifesto it should be because of urgent situation or because there is

:09:09. > :09:14.a compelling argument or because the circumstances have changed. It

:09:15. > :09:17.doesn't seem to me to be anything urgent, he may make a compelling

:09:18. > :09:21.argument, the issue he seems to be resting on is circumstances have

:09:22. > :09:25.changed and in that context he has emphasised internet shopping, would

:09:26. > :09:28.he have been aware the business select committee just yesterday the

:09:29. > :09:32.head of the British Retail Consortium talked about the

:09:33. > :09:35.evolution of business models, that high street retail works with online

:09:36. > :09:40.retail and they don't feel necessarily the same compulsion that

:09:41. > :09:44.you need to draw a distinction between the two to achieve growth?

:09:45. > :09:48.He outlines why it's important to local authorities that ability to

:09:49. > :09:51.look locally at what is right for them, to also acknowledge in high

:09:52. > :09:55.streets often it can be the largest stores that are the draw for

:09:56. > :09:59.footfall, free car parking plays a part, as well. I would like to see

:10:00. > :10:03.more of that. I will say we have to be very clear. Politics, we all know

:10:04. > :10:08.in this House, is not an exact science. All but the most saintly of

:10:09. > :10:13.humans can sometimes contradict themselves. Or be open to the charge

:10:14. > :10:16.of inconsistency. But the contradictions inherent in the

:10:17. > :10:20.Labour-SNP opposition to our liberalisation proposals are so

:10:21. > :10:24.immense that I must draw the House's attention to them. They there are no

:10:25. > :10:27.restrictions on Sunday trading in Scotland as honourable friends have

:10:28. > :10:30.outlined, the SNP as you would expect said they would support our

:10:31. > :10:36.proposals and now they say they won't. Will the SNP administration

:10:37. > :10:39.in Edinburgh be introducing the restrictions that currently apply in

:10:40. > :10:45.England in order to be consistent? That will be an interesting question

:10:46. > :10:50.to answer. Secondly, do Labour plan to send letters to constituents

:10:51. > :10:54.urging them to give up using the internet on Sundays, unless somebody

:10:55. > :10:59.be exploited in Amazon or another company's warehouse? I am tempted to

:11:00. > :11:01.ask the opposition why they have not themselves, actually why at

:11:02. > :11:05.committee they didn't vote against this or even speak in some cases

:11:06. > :11:08.against this in the committee and the SNP or Labour voted against it

:11:09. > :11:12.and why they've not laid an amendment themselves? Maybe they

:11:13. > :11:16.could have said something in an amendment like it has come to Labour

:11:17. > :11:20.and the SNP's attention that some people shop on the internet on

:11:21. > :11:23.Sundays, after all, it is now the biggest internet shopping day of the

:11:24. > :11:28.week, but Labour and the SNP demand the law to switch off the internet

:11:29. > :11:31.on Sundays to stamp out this disgraceful behaviour. But perhaps I

:11:32. > :11:36.shouldn't give honourable members opposite any ideas. How can you be

:11:37. > :11:40.opposed to walking into a shop on Sunday to buy something, a book, for

:11:41. > :11:43.example, whether it's a little red one or something else, but not

:11:44. > :11:49.opposed to buying that very same book so long as you do it on the

:11:50. > :11:53.internet? Labour and the SNP, parties in effective coalition here

:11:54. > :11:57.today, that support Amazon's profits at the expense of shops on our high

:11:58. > :12:01.street, I am afraid I struggle to see the logic of. I give way. I

:12:02. > :12:05.thank the honourable gentleman for giving way. I would like to ask him

:12:06. > :12:09.a question about something he said earlier about protection for shop

:12:10. > :12:12.workers. I would welcome strength and protections for shop workers,

:12:13. > :12:16.but could I ask the Minister if he loses the vote tonight in relation

:12:17. > :12:20.of process to extend Sunday opening will he retan the protection for

:12:21. > :12:24.shop workers within this bill? We will be clear from the beginning,

:12:25. > :12:28.this is a package so if members vote against amendment one, they're

:12:29. > :12:35.voting against the improvement to workers' rights. I give way. I have

:12:36. > :12:38.had deep concerns about this and put my name to amendment one. I have

:12:39. > :12:44.listened to the Minister this morning, we spoke at some length on

:12:45. > :12:47.the subject of proposed pilot. I will be willing to support that, if

:12:48. > :12:50.the Minister gives a very, very clear assurance that we are not only

:12:51. > :12:54.going to be looking at economic drivers, but that we will absolutely

:12:55. > :12:57.ensure that we look at the whole impact on family tests because the

:12:58. > :13:01.reality is that so many workers who work shifts are put to the bottom of

:13:02. > :13:04.the list and end up doing Sunday working because they can't get to

:13:05. > :13:07.the top of the list with the employment and you must make sure

:13:08. > :13:13.that's not the case so I would look for that assurance from the

:13:14. > :13:18.Minister. Order. First of all, could I appeal for as orderly an

:13:19. > :13:23.atmosphere as possible, the chair seeks to facilitate as many

:13:24. > :13:29.contributors. Members are free to say what they like, I would gently

:13:30. > :13:36.point out... Order, there is no amendment on new clause, on the

:13:37. > :13:42.subject of pilots to be taken today. There is material before the House

:13:43. > :13:49.but that is not amongst the material before the House. Minister. Point of

:13:50. > :13:56.order. Thank you very much, MrSpeaker. Could you just confirm

:13:57. > :14:01.again that the manuscript amendment which the Government attempted to

:14:02. > :14:04.sneak on to the order parn at the last minute today which would have

:14:05. > :14:09.involved that compromise the honourable lady seems to have done a

:14:10. > :14:15.deal on is in fact not on the order paper and not before the House? It

:14:16. > :14:19.wasn't selected. For the benefit of people attending to our proceedings

:14:20. > :14:27.let me be explicit, it's for the Speaker to select or not to select,

:14:28. > :14:31.I did not select that late submitted manuscript proposal. I need add

:14:32. > :14:36.nothing. Minister. Thank you, MrSpeaker. My honourable friend

:14:37. > :14:39.makes a strong point, she has been consistent on this point and made

:14:40. > :14:43.this point clear and I absolutely think she makes a very clear and

:14:44. > :14:48.passionate and strong point around the importance of family values and

:14:49. > :14:53.the importance of social fabric and I will touch on that in just a

:14:54. > :14:56.moment. I would say to honourable colleagues, on the opposite benches

:14:57. > :15:01.and colleagues thinking about where we are with Sunday trading, let's be

:15:02. > :15:05.very clear, none of us would want a situation where we have to put up

:15:06. > :15:08.with a Government banning cinemas opening on Wednesday evenings, so

:15:09. > :15:11.why would we put up a Government telling us when we can and can in

:15:12. > :15:20.the open our businesses, run our shops, or how we spend our time if

:15:21. > :15:26.we wish to be shopping on a Sunday? Can I put on record the fact that I

:15:27. > :15:29.think the Minister's fielding a difficult case very well and he is

:15:30. > :15:35.an excellent Minister who I had the great honour to serve with on a

:15:36. > :15:39.housing and planning committee. However, on the specific issue of

:15:40. > :15:44.employment rights, he will know that as a result of work commissioned by

:15:45. > :15:50.the Christian institute on 25th February John Bowers QC considered

:15:51. > :15:53.the proposals for employment rights, quote, complex, and that they would

:15:54. > :15:56.deliver no protection for people who object to working on Sundays during

:15:57. > :16:01.the opt-out notice period. That is the issue and that is what the best

:16:02. > :16:07.legal brains have told us about the proposal that the Government's

:16:08. > :16:10.putting forward. Well, I am afraid I share my honourable admiration for

:16:11. > :16:15.him as he outlined for me, he was a fantastic colleague to work with at

:16:16. > :16:20.all times, but on this we disagree. Say and I think as Government

:16:21. > :16:23.lawyers outlined and we laid out in those, it goes beyond anything the

:16:24. > :16:26.party opposite did while they were in Government to give increased

:16:27. > :16:29.workers protection and it is important, they're an important part

:16:30. > :16:33.of a package and I have to say inconsistency from the parties

:16:34. > :16:38.opposite is one thing, but killing off jobs is entirely another. Again

:16:39. > :16:41.given unemployment record of the party opposite, it is effectively a

:16:42. > :16:46.Maoist take on economics, so perhaps I shouldn't be surprised. The SNP on

:16:47. > :16:51.the party opposite didn't raise an amendment or vote in committee on

:16:52. > :16:54.this issue. The estimates of growth which liberalisation will deliver

:16:55. > :16:58.show the evidence, the growth which means new jobs and more taxes to pay

:16:59. > :17:03.for public services as well, will come as a result of these changes.

:17:04. > :17:08.Estimates suggest, I will give way in a moment, estimates suggest that

:17:09. > :17:11.an extra ?300 million in London alone, those letters from Labour and

:17:12. > :17:16.the SNP, the ones urging people to avoid the internet on Sundays that

:17:17. > :17:20.they might be drafting as I outlined earlier should include a PS for

:17:21. > :17:25.anybody looking for a job right now, maybe it

:17:26. > :17:32.helped you find a job. The SNP, the party that exists to promote local

:17:33. > :17:36.control over their own affairs, should maybe add PPS, explaining why

:17:37. > :17:40.they're voting to prevent devolution to England and Welsh councils when

:17:41. > :17:45.control of shopping hours is fully devolved already to the Scottish

:17:46. > :17:49.Government. Happy to give way. Why when the Minister has known the, The

:17:50. > :17:55.Government has known since November the SNP's position on this matter

:17:56. > :17:58.have they not come back with proposals, for instance, protection

:17:59. > :18:04.premium pay and devolving employment law so we could sort this out for

:18:05. > :18:07.ourselves? Well, MrSpeaker, I am struggling to treat that comment

:18:08. > :18:11.with any seriousness. I would point the honourable gentleman back to

:18:12. > :18:17.press and comments from the SNP just last week where they were talking

:18:18. > :18:21.about this issue. Now, MrSpeaker, your comments... Happy to give way.

:18:22. > :18:24.I am extremely grateful to the Minister who is obviously to defend

:18:25. > :18:28.a difficult position. But what I would say is the Government is

:18:29. > :18:33.supporting this measure, the opposition is opposing. Yet there

:18:34. > :18:37.are a number of colleagues who are in his own party who share deep

:18:38. > :18:39.concern about this, tapping into a deep Conservative tradition actually

:18:40. > :18:45.of trying to preserve our institutions. I would suggest to him

:18:46. > :18:48.gently he might make better progress by making positive arguments for his

:18:49. > :18:55.proposals amongst those colleagues than attacking this side and by

:18:56. > :18:59.default attacking members on his own side as Maoists. I appreciate, I

:19:00. > :19:03.think my colleagues and good friends around me are capable of defending

:19:04. > :19:06.themselves and making their case clearly as my honourable friend

:19:07. > :19:09.absolutely did this afternoon. I respect that. The reality is,

:19:10. > :19:12.though, we are being very clear that we want to do something that can

:19:13. > :19:16.give an opportunity of economic dproet to give our high streets a

:19:17. > :19:19.chance to regenerate and I would suggest the honourable friend might

:19:20. > :19:22.want to look at reports of the committee stages to see more detail

:19:23. > :19:29.of that argument that we had there and then. Happy to give way. Would

:19:30. > :19:35.the Minister agree with me that in my constituency the largest employer

:19:36. > :19:40.is know how, it's the biggest distributor of online sales of

:19:41. > :19:44.electrical equipment. Those workers, hundreds of my constituents, work on

:19:45. > :19:49.Sundays, how do honourable members think they get their deliveries on

:19:50. > :19:53.Monday morning? This bill will enhance the rights of those workers.

:19:54. > :19:59.When honourable members go online and order and Amazon or whatever on

:20:00. > :20:04.Saturday or Sunday, workers in my constituency and across the country

:20:05. > :20:09.will be working and will enjoy the benefits this bill will give them. I

:20:10. > :20:14.think my honourable friend outlines a very strong position very clearly.

:20:15. > :20:16.I will say he also highlights an important point where if we look

:20:17. > :20:22.around the world at other places actually one of the most observant

:20:23. > :20:25.places in the world arguably for religious observance in the United

:20:26. > :20:29.States has more freedom than we do. Actually I am sure members in

:20:30. > :20:33.Scotland would argue that family values have not been decreased and

:20:34. > :20:35.religious observance not decreased through that in Scotland. There is

:20:36. > :20:39.still the ability for people to make a choice of what they do and

:20:40. > :20:42.arguably to have more flexibility on a Sunday particularly as well we

:20:43. > :20:45.have to remember those workers who do work six days a week and want

:20:46. > :20:48.more opportunity to be able to choose how to spend their time.

:20:49. > :20:52.Before I take any more interventions I am going to make a little bit more

:20:53. > :20:55.progress, I am aware of your comments rightly, MrSpeaker, over

:20:56. > :21:00.the time this afternoon. I just want to say that I do know that there are

:21:01. > :21:04.members on both sides, I appreciate on my side of the House, whose

:21:05. > :21:09.consciences make this a very difficult subject for them. I know

:21:10. > :21:14.that they act from positions where they have strong and I respect their

:21:15. > :21:18.moral views, rather than them playing with political opportunism

:21:19. > :21:22.that I think is going on in some members of the House opposite me.

:21:23. > :21:24.Having listened to colleagues, and worked with colleagues on this

:21:25. > :21:28.issue, I am pleased to be able to announce and I want to outline to

:21:29. > :21:31.the House, MrSpeaker, what our journey of travel is, so that

:21:32. > :21:35.colleagues have a feeling for what they want to do and what we are

:21:36. > :21:39.planning. I want to announce that our proposal will go further and be

:21:40. > :21:43.difficult to what we initially proposed in terms of the protections

:21:44. > :21:47.that it offers. Having listened to colleagues and discussed their

:21:48. > :21:51.principle objections with them, I will be proposing to do the

:21:52. > :21:54.following. It's also in outlining this I should be clear, actually

:21:55. > :21:58.deals with the issues raised by members of the SNP and the press

:21:59. > :22:02.over the last couple of days of what their concerns are so we will find

:22:03. > :22:06.out if they really believe what they have been saying in the last 24

:22:07. > :22:10.hours. MrSpeaker, what we will be looking to do is rather than

:22:11. > :22:13.applying the liberalisation nationwide from day one, the

:22:14. > :22:18.Government will invite local authorities which wish to liberalise

:22:19. > :22:23.hours to apply for participation in an explore tarry phase. 12 places

:22:24. > :22:30.will be selected who will be locally recommended from local areas to us

:22:31. > :22:33.so it will be locally decided, both geographically, economically and

:22:34. > :22:38.demographically diverse and taking your point, MrSpeaker, absolutely

:22:39. > :22:42.correctly about the manuscript, and I take your words absolutely to

:22:43. > :22:48.heart, I will say that what we will be doing, if honourable members will

:22:49. > :22:51.join with the Government and join me in voting against amendment one

:22:52. > :22:56.today, we will be laying an amendment in the other place. I have

:22:57. > :23:02.circulated to colleagues that amendment this afternoon. Through

:23:03. > :23:05.this, we will gather evidence about the liberalisations impact,

:23:06. > :23:10.including the use of zoning and its effect on those economies. Of

:23:11. > :23:13.course, the impact on workers will be measured too. My honourable

:23:14. > :23:17.friend and other colleagues have made this case very clearly, very

:23:18. > :23:22.strongly, very passionately and we are listening and we have heard what

:23:23. > :23:25.they say. We want to make sure that we are able to properly assess and I

:23:26. > :23:28.will liaise with colleagues to make sure that the perform apes

:23:29. > :23:35.indicators recognise this, assess this and look at this as part of the

:23:36. > :23:41.criteria, over the next 12 months. And evaluation... I apologise having

:23:42. > :23:49.to interrupt the Minister. Point of order. For the Minister to proceed

:23:50. > :23:52.with a promise of legislation which isn't on the order paper to be

:23:53. > :23:55.considered and member here will vote upon something they don't have in

:23:56. > :23:59.front of them. It's not promises that we are voting on. It has to be

:24:00. > :24:10.in front of us to discuss in this chamber. Is that an order. ?

:24:11. > :24:16.I will explain the position for the benefit of the house. There is

:24:17. > :24:21.nothing disorderly in the minister giving an indication on how the

:24:22. > :24:27.government would propose to proceed. If a minister wishes to say to the

:24:28. > :24:34.house, our intention is to proceed with pilots, it's perfectly in order

:24:35. > :24:36.for the minister to do that. But one thing, procedurally and

:24:37. > :24:44.constitutionally, the house needs to be made aware again. Members are

:24:45. > :24:52.voting on that which is on the paper, and which, Mr Speaker, that

:24:53. > :24:59.is to say, I, have selected, and they are not voting on a government

:25:00. > :25:04.proposal. Or words about pilots. They are voting on that which is on

:25:05. > :25:08.the paper. The matter under discussion is the amendment in the

:25:09. > :25:13.name of the honourable gentleman, the member for Enfield Southgate. We

:25:14. > :25:19.are voting for that, not on a government proposal. I hope that's

:25:20. > :25:23.clear. Minister. I will take interventions in a second, thank you

:25:24. > :25:29.Mr Speaker. You are absolutely right, has always, I wouldn't dream

:25:30. > :25:34.of taking any other view. What I would like to outline to honourable

:25:35. > :25:38.colleagues, honourable friends, and members across the house, what Mr

:25:39. > :25:43.Speaker says is correct, if the house votes against a amendment one,

:25:44. > :25:49.I'm outlining what the government will do. I have been writing to

:25:50. > :25:52.constituents over the last six months saying I agree with the Prime

:25:53. > :25:57.Minister on this issue, and particularly what he said in his

:25:58. > :26:01.letter of April 28. I wonder if the honourable friend could help me in

:26:02. > :26:07.drafting a new letter if I was to go to the wrong lobby. Can I ask him

:26:08. > :26:10.whether the government would bring forward fresh legislation in the

:26:11. > :26:16.Queens speech? Why not bring forward the fresh Bill, have a proper

:26:17. > :26:21.discussion about it? I appreciate my honourable friend's faith in my

:26:22. > :26:25.ability to draft a letter and I'm happy to do that. Over the last six

:26:26. > :26:30.months I would point to residents to the fact that the Prime Minister and

:26:31. > :26:36.Chancellor last summer outline three wanted to review Sunday trade laws

:26:37. > :26:41.in the context of things moving on economic lead and culturally with

:26:42. > :26:47.the Internet. Is the minister telling us that the conscience of

:26:48. > :26:56.this house, the conscience of individual members of this house,

:26:57. > :27:00.can be salved in some why buy the promise of a stay of execution, but

:27:01. > :27:05.there will be a nice funeral later on? Is that essentially what the

:27:06. > :27:09.minister is telling us? If not, wouldn't he be better with drawing

:27:10. > :27:15.this now and bringing up new legislation at a later stage? I

:27:16. > :27:19.would say that I will just continue outlining exactly what the journey

:27:20. > :27:24.would be. What he said isn't quite what we are looking at. What we

:27:25. > :27:30.would have is pilots and local areas would come in, bearing in mind 200

:27:31. > :27:34.local authorities want this power, and we would choose 12 areas with a

:27:35. > :27:41.good demographic spread to look at over the next 12 months. We would

:27:42. > :27:46.have an opportunity to looked at the assessment of that over the next 12

:27:47. > :27:48.months, report backs upon it with the findings, based on key

:27:49. > :27:54.performance indicators agreed, and we would come back to Parliament and

:27:55. > :27:59.to the floor of this house. An evaluation of this exploratory phase

:28:00. > :28:03.would be published. Saint honourable colleagues and friends, we are

:28:04. > :28:06.circulating, and I want to be clear, we are circulating a draft for

:28:07. > :28:11.colleagues to consider, and I would ask them to support us by therefore

:28:12. > :28:15.opposing amendments one and 19, and support the government and support

:28:16. > :28:20.the government amendments to, 13 and 14, to do this in the House of

:28:21. > :28:25.Lords. There would be an evaluation of this exploratory phase that would

:28:26. > :28:29.be published. The house will then debate and vote again after that

:28:30. > :28:32.pilot period on extending the right to every council in England and

:28:33. > :28:41.Wales. It would come back to the house for a full debate with the

:28:42. > :28:48.evidence. I thank the Minister for giving way. First of all we had the

:28:49. > :28:52.Minister, perhaps a member of the union of barrel scrapers, presenting

:28:53. > :28:56.itself as an advocate for workers rights and interests. Now he's

:28:57. > :29:00.saying he's selling on some deferred click and collect basis, an option

:29:01. > :29:04.not available today, an option not in front of us. Is the Minister not

:29:05. > :29:08.actually pushing something that would be a version of predictive

:29:09. > :29:11.text of public policy, that would end up becoming the default position

:29:12. > :29:17.for local authorities, firms and workers, who do not want it? You are

:29:18. > :29:22.not quite correct in what you outline. There are a huge number of

:29:23. > :29:26.local authorities, consumers, and people who work six days a week,

:29:27. > :29:30.families, and workers who want the chance to have more hours on a

:29:31. > :29:35.Sunday, and have that opportunity, and businesses who want the chance

:29:36. > :29:41.to compete with the Internet. That's why the horticultural Association is

:29:42. > :29:46.clear it's worth a potential ?75 million in just that industry alone.

:29:47. > :29:49.That's independent businesses in the main, who we are looking to give

:29:50. > :29:55.that opportunity to, and potentially thousands of jobs. What we are

:29:56. > :30:01.outlining here today, if honourable members will vote, as I am asking

:30:02. > :30:04.them to do in the lobby, against amendments number one. I'm outlining

:30:05. > :30:09.what the government will do to make sure we have a pilot scheme to run

:30:10. > :30:12.over 12 months, to give further evidence to come back to this house

:30:13. > :30:21.for a full-screen to me, abate and vote in this house. I thank the

:30:22. > :30:25.Minister for giving way. Is it a point of reassurance for honourable

:30:26. > :30:27.members across the house, contained within the bill are zoning

:30:28. > :30:36.provisions to allow local authorities to choose which areas

:30:37. > :30:41.can enhance their local laws. He's absolutely right, there is already

:30:42. > :30:45.in the Bill be ability to zone. Looking at the pilots, those local

:30:46. > :30:49.areas who want to do the pilot, will specify exactly how they will do it

:30:50. > :30:53.in their area and what that zone will look like. It's trusting local

:30:54. > :31:01.people to do what they know is right for their area. By doing it this

:31:02. > :31:05.way, there is no need for an amendment one. Our intention is to

:31:06. > :31:09.increase freedom, and protect shop workers' rights, to grow our economy

:31:10. > :31:15.and protect our high streets, whilst evolving power from Whitehall to

:31:16. > :31:19.town halls. We want to see a devolution of power to local areas

:31:20. > :31:22.who know their economy Best, who know their high street the best, and

:31:23. > :31:30.who want the power to see their economy grow. Precisely on this

:31:31. > :31:37.pilot point, say Lincoln applies for this and goes ahead. Would there be

:31:38. > :31:44.intolerable pressure on on constituencies next door. And Tesco

:31:45. > :31:48.might hold people to ransom. My honourable friend is an able

:31:49. > :31:54.minister, working hard, but his arguments do not stack up. Even God

:31:55. > :31:59.took a rest on the seventh day. Sit down, rest your case, and withdraw

:32:00. > :32:03.this. I thank my honourable friend for his kind invitation of a rest,

:32:04. > :32:08.but I will carry on to try to do the right thing for our economy for a

:32:09. > :32:13.bit longer. In terms of practically how this would work, because they

:32:14. > :32:17.are pilots, and because there would only be 12, no other areas would be

:32:18. > :32:21.allowed to do this. If you have a look at what we are circulating this

:32:22. > :32:25.afternoon, he would have that confidence in the outlying that it

:32:26. > :32:28.would only be those areas, and I would come back to this house for a

:32:29. > :32:37.full assessment and debate and scrutiny. Before entering this place

:32:38. > :32:42.I was in business for 25 years. It's absolutely right to consider the

:32:43. > :32:46.needs of large business and the cost to small business and the family

:32:47. > :32:51.lives of workers. As all business people know, shouldn't the Kuster,

:32:52. > :32:56.first? If the customer was to shop at other times in the weekend,

:32:57. > :33:03.shouldn't they be allowed to do that? -- shouldn't the customer

:33:04. > :33:07.comes first. If the pilot says customers do not want this,

:33:08. > :33:10.shouldn't we ask them through the pilot to see if they do want this

:33:11. > :33:15.and the effect it has on small businesses in particular. My

:33:16. > :33:22.honourable friend gets to the heart of her eat key issue here, what's

:33:23. > :33:26.right for the wider community and consumers and residents. -- heart of

:33:27. > :33:30.a key issue. I spoke to some blue last week who made the salient point

:33:31. > :33:35.to me, as somebody who works in the health service six days per week,

:33:36. > :33:39.they want this wider opportunity on a Sunday to shop on the way that

:33:40. > :33:43.other people do on a Saturday, Friday and Thursday, and to spend

:33:44. > :33:47.time with their families in shopping areas, supporting the high Street,

:33:48. > :33:50.as many of us do on a Saturday. Many of us who work hard on Saturday also

:33:51. > :33:58.take advantage of this Sunday freedom. Last Sunday, I live in

:33:59. > :34:02.Carlisle, and I went shopping in Gretna Green on Sunday. Isn't it

:34:03. > :34:06.right the people in Carlisle get the same opportunity as Scottish people

:34:07. > :34:15.to decide whether or not we are open on a Sunday. Businesses in Carlisle

:34:16. > :34:18.want this plan, and indeed, the Labour local authority want this

:34:19. > :34:22.power, and they might want to be one of the pilots. To be clear, if the

:34:23. > :34:28.mend and one is not accepted today, we would only go forward in the

:34:29. > :34:40.other house with a new amendment meaning only 12 pilots, no more than

:34:41. > :34:45.that. Thank you for letting us know about the zoning proposals. Perhaps

:34:46. > :34:50.you could clarify about whether London would be a zone in itself be

:34:51. > :34:54.delegated to local authorities. Because London is such a diverse

:34:55. > :34:57.area and many in London would appreciate working on Sundays, but

:34:58. > :35:02.would not like to work on another day. So the flexibility of the new

:35:03. > :35:08.employment, also making reference to your point about America, where is

:35:09. > :35:15.there is a higher church attendance, but much more freedom. That is what

:35:16. > :35:18.we would like, to trade on Sunday. I can appreciate there will be parts

:35:19. > :35:23.of London that would want to be carried forward. Some of the

:35:24. > :35:32.evidence shows that the west end alone, this could be worth up to

:35:33. > :35:37.almost ?400 million per year for the economy and thousands of jobs in

:35:38. > :35:41.that area alone. When we think about London, it's a really good example

:35:42. > :35:46.of how the market drives these things. Even on days where shops can

:35:47. > :35:51.open as long as they like, members could find that if they wander into

:35:52. > :35:59.the west end in midweek, shops don't open that long. We want to give

:36:00. > :36:07.businesses the choice, so it is locally driven. Can the Minister,

:36:08. > :36:12.for the purposes of clarity, tell us in these proposals that we have not

:36:13. > :36:17.yet seen, how they will assess the impact on premium pay, not just in

:36:18. > :36:24.Scotland, but the rest of the United Kingdom. As we put these forward, I

:36:25. > :36:28.think it's important that we make sure that the key performance

:36:29. > :36:31.indicators will come back to this house a year after these pilots have

:36:32. > :36:36.run for 12 months, and they will cover a whole range of issues. She

:36:37. > :36:40.makes a very fair point. If she wants to contribute that, and it's

:36:41. > :36:43.one of the points looked at in these pilots, I'm happy to make sure that

:36:44. > :36:49.happens. The honourable gentleman opposite asked me if I would use up

:36:50. > :36:53.all the time, know I will not, I'm about to conclude, but I would point

:36:54. > :36:58.out to him that I have spent much of my time taking interventions from

:36:59. > :37:00.his honourable friends, so I find his comments slightly surprising,

:37:01. > :37:07.bearing in mind this was not an issue he deemed fit to vote on that

:37:08. > :37:11.committee. I think we do need to allow members to have their say as

:37:12. > :37:16.well. We have listened to the principled opposition to our plans.

:37:17. > :37:21.I have listened to colleagues who have made strong, passionate and

:37:22. > :37:27.clear proposals to us. And we are amending them accordingly, without

:37:28. > :37:30.proposal, for exploratory evaluative phase, for the colleagues in the

:37:31. > :37:34.other place, and a draft is available to look at now. I would

:37:35. > :37:39.call on colleagues across this house, to support the government

:37:40. > :37:48.amendment and to vote against amendment one. Thank you Madam

:37:49. > :37:54.Deputy Speaker, and welcome to our deliberations. I should refer the

:37:55. > :37:58.house to my enter in the register of interest. Honestly, that really was

:37:59. > :38:07.the, trust me I'm honest Brandon, speech. We have the promise to do

:38:08. > :38:11.better next time, so I'm begging you to support me despite making such a

:38:12. > :38:20.mess of things so far. Honestly, did you ever hear anything quite so

:38:21. > :38:24.absurd. He asked why we didn't vote against it in committee. I will read

:38:25. > :38:28.out to him what my honourable friend from Cardiff West said in committee.

:38:29. > :38:32.He said, I will cut short my comments and simply say that we are

:38:33. > :38:37.against these proposals. But we will not vote against them at this stage

:38:38. > :38:42.because we want the opportunity to test the opinion of the whole house.

:38:43. > :38:51.Today, that's exactly what we are doing.

:38:52. > :38:57.Turning very briefly to his last-minute offer to invite Local

:38:58. > :39:02.Authorities to participate, why on earth didn't he do that in the first

:39:03. > :39:09.place? There's no offer today to vote for pilots for members on the

:39:10. > :39:15.Government benches. There's no way of guaranteeing those pilots. It

:39:16. > :39:21.says clearly in the Bill, nothing about pilots in there. So do we take

:39:22. > :39:27.his word or not, given what's gone before today and previously on this

:39:28. > :39:33.subject? On this point, is my honourable friend aware of any

:39:34. > :39:38.provision that allows the Government benches to pre-empt a decision in

:39:39. > :39:43.the other place, or to offer this strange variant on a deferred

:39:44. > :39:47.division on an issue that nobody anywhere, other than the Government

:39:48. > :39:54.front bench and possibly not all of them, actually once? Is very good

:39:55. > :40:03.point. He's had ample opportunity in the Lords, very ample

:40:04. > :40:08.committee. It was not mentioned in the Lords, it was not in the Bill.

:40:09. > :40:12.It was not mentioned until the second reading when the Secretary of

:40:13. > :40:16.State mention the Bill would cover Sunday training. He could have

:40:17. > :40:21.tabled amendments then, he could have tabled them today in plenty of

:40:22. > :40:28.time. He chose not to. Why should we believe a word he says? I would like

:40:29. > :40:34.to underline the point from the member of Enfield. If we do want to

:40:35. > :40:41.get enhanced provisions, the logical thing to do would be to vote on the

:40:42. > :40:45.member for Enfield's amendment in the affirmative. There's nothing to

:40:46. > :40:50.prevent the Minister from bringing this provision forward in the House

:40:51. > :40:55.of lords, other than the fact we haven't amended this Bill and it

:40:56. > :41:00.stands in the way he has put it today. My honourable friend reminds

:41:01. > :41:06.me that he could... Let me answer the intervention. Perhaps he will

:41:07. > :41:10.answer the point of the member from Christchurch. Why doesn't he just go

:41:11. > :41:17.back to the drawing board, start again with a new bill, and bring it

:41:18. > :41:22.back to us, that is properly considered and gives both houses

:41:23. > :41:26.ample opportunity to consider this properly, debate it fully, and get

:41:27. > :41:36.the right conclusions and the right piece of legislation? The reason I

:41:37. > :41:42.outlined what I did is if amendment one is passed, the Sunday trading

:41:43. > :41:47.clauses do not apply. We need to support the Government amendments in

:41:48. > :41:51.the House of Lords. From a tech core point of view, that's why we do it

:41:52. > :41:58.that way. -- a technical point of view. This is a complete nonsense. I

:41:59. > :42:03.think he had long enough when he was standing up to demonstrate the

:42:04. > :42:08.nonsense of what he was saying. The only to do this is to start again

:42:09. > :42:12.from scratch. He should really listen, particularly to his own

:42:13. > :42:19.members, who made that point extremely well. Are we not moving

:42:20. > :42:22.into the space where we are talking about a hypothetical amendment with

:42:23. > :42:29.hypothetical evidence, where in fact it could create huge risk for those

:42:30. > :42:35.neighbouring areas that will not be part of the pilot, and in 12 months'

:42:36. > :42:43.time those businesses may not exist? That's an excellent point. I will

:42:44. > :42:50.give way. Do we not have a choice between a clear article of amendment

:42:51. > :42:56.which we can understand, feel and touch, or in stead we have a

:42:57. > :43:00.flatpack pilot scheme, or an artist's impression of one? It would

:43:01. > :43:08.be ridiculous for the House to buy that. He has made the point as well

:43:09. > :43:13.as anybody here today, and I completely agree. I should make some

:43:14. > :43:21.progress. I must congratulate the honourable member from Enfield

:43:22. > :43:24.Southgate, and all who have signed his amendment, and the excellent

:43:25. > :43:32.speech he gave in a very measured and appropriate tone. I would like

:43:33. > :43:37.to commend the work of the keep Sunday special campaign for their

:43:38. > :43:41.hard work in making sure all of the arguments were marshals, given the

:43:42. > :43:45.Government's failure to provide evidence in a timely fashion. Sunday

:43:46. > :43:51.is the one day of the week when workers in largest stores do not

:43:52. > :43:54.have the prospect of working longer hours. It is the one day a week

:43:55. > :43:59.where they have the prospect of spending part of the day with their

:44:00. > :44:05.families. For many people of faith it is the most important day of the

:44:06. > :44:10.week, and for many others, Sunday is the day of rest. It is the one day

:44:11. > :44:16.of the week where smaller retailers can stay open longer and have a

:44:17. > :44:21.competitive advantage, if they wish. One in ten work in the retail

:44:22. > :44:26.sector. This matters a great heel. There will be profound changes both

:44:27. > :44:33.to people at work and outside if this goes through. I would like to

:44:34. > :44:40.ask this question - what discussions has he had with the pilot operating

:44:41. > :44:45.in Scotland that we can look to to see whether or not it has been

:44:46. > :44:49.beneficial, leaving aside the cost of what has been paid, how

:44:50. > :44:54.beneficial it has been to the Scottish economy to have that

:44:55. > :45:01.liberation? Has he looked at that? I'm sure the members of the SNP will

:45:02. > :45:05.answer her. We have a great British compromise that allows different

:45:06. > :45:10.situations in different parts of the UK. Before the election, the Prime

:45:11. > :45:16.Minister's office confirmed he had no plans to change Sunday training.

:45:17. > :45:21.The Conservative Party manifesto did not say it would change Sunday

:45:22. > :45:25.trading. Many Conservative candidates roped in good faith to

:45:26. > :45:33.constituents to confirm the Government would not be implementing

:45:34. > :45:36.such changes. At committee change -- stage, the minister justified the

:45:37. > :45:42.changes by saying that the current rules dated from a time before the

:45:43. > :45:48.Internet, 1994. Yet the populist survey from January this year stated

:45:49. > :45:52.that not a single respondent said that restrictions for Sunday trading

:45:53. > :45:57.were a reason for them shopping online. Not a single person out of

:45:58. > :46:03.2008 people in a representative sample. Yet online trading is given

:46:04. > :46:08.as a key reason for needing to extend Sunday trading. Not a single

:46:09. > :46:13.analyst has suggested that the recent poor Christmas trading

:46:14. > :46:16.results were caused by a lack of opportunity for shoppers on Sunday.

:46:17. > :46:21.Unbelievable. The Minister told us at committee that the reason for the

:46:22. > :46:27.change of mind is that when the Prime Minister's office wrote the

:46:28. > :46:32.letter it was as Prime Minister of a coalition Government. But now he is

:46:33. > :46:36.Prime Minister of a Conservative majority Government, everything has

:46:37. > :46:44.changed. But presumably he intended to become so when his office wrote

:46:45. > :46:47.that letter. I doubt it cuts ice with Conservative backbenchers who

:46:48. > :46:52.support the keep Sunday special campaign. The Minister also said

:46:53. > :46:58.that the changes were about devolution and changes made by local

:46:59. > :47:04.people. But the changes would be applied to out-of-town centres, in

:47:05. > :47:09.most areas, to the detriment of high streets. If one council introduces

:47:10. > :47:13.changes to Sunday trading, neighbours will have little choice

:47:14. > :47:18.other than to follow suit, or run the risk that trade will go to

:47:19. > :47:25.businesses in neighbouring authorities. This is passing on the

:47:26. > :47:31.blame for an unpopular measure which only one in eight people support,

:47:32. > :47:34.according to a populist poll last September. We were told that the

:47:35. > :47:40.changes would help the high street also. Does the honourable member

:47:41. > :47:46.think it is right that the people of Carlisle should decide whether or

:47:47. > :47:50.not shops are open on Sunday so that they can compete on an equal footing

:47:51. > :47:56.with Scotland, which is only nine miles away? If he wants to organise

:47:57. > :48:00.an adjournment debate about the people of Carlisle, I'm sure the

:48:01. > :48:08.biggest will answer him. The reality is... I will answer the question if

:48:09. > :48:11.you let me! If one council changes its rules, neighbouring authorities

:48:12. > :48:17.will feel under pressure to do exactly the same. They will have no

:48:18. > :48:25.choice. If Tesco in the borough next door opens on Sunday until 10pm, if

:48:26. > :48:29.the Tesco or the ASDA or the Morrisons opens, then the one in the

:48:30. > :48:38.borough next door will have two as well. I will make some progress. I

:48:39. > :48:42.will give way. Would he agree that the member who has just intervened

:48:43. > :48:48.has made his point for him? The people of call I'll -- Carlisle

:48:49. > :48:53.should be able to decide what happens in their area in order to

:48:54. > :48:57.compete with the area next door. If that happened in Carlisle, the

:48:58. > :49:01.council next Carlisle would decide what happened there. The argument he

:49:02. > :49:08.is putting forward is right. This would have the effect of ensuring

:49:09. > :49:14.that this was not localism, that this was an actual decision. When

:49:15. > :49:19.the minister was talking about zoning and was asked whether London

:49:20. > :49:24.could be a single zone, why not stop at London? Why not have England as a

:49:25. > :49:31.single zone? Because that is the effect of what he is proposing,

:49:32. > :49:33.because of a domino effect. I wonder if my honourable friend would

:49:34. > :49:42.reflect on the fact that there are some large shopping centres, such as

:49:43. > :49:47.the Trafford Centre, next to my constituency. My constituents would

:49:48. > :49:50.never get a moment 's peace if the Trafford Centre's hours were

:49:51. > :49:54.extended. The Government is trying to have a motorway project, and the

:49:55. > :50:01.building has to happen when the Trafford Centre isn't easy. It would

:50:02. > :50:08.be impossible for the logistics of the situation if the Trafford Centre

:50:09. > :50:13.could open 24/7. I think we can give examples of that up and down the

:50:14. > :50:17.country. She's absolutely right. Turning to some of the evidence we

:50:18. > :50:24.can given before this debate, during the Olympics we saw a fall in trade

:50:25. > :50:29.on Sundays among convenience stores of up to 7%. There was also a

:50:30. > :50:34.displacement of trade to different times of the week. There was a fall

:50:35. > :50:37.in trade rather than an increase. The Government assumption that

:50:38. > :50:43.people will have more money to spend just because the shops are open

:50:44. > :50:47.longer does not bear scrutiny. The extra hours on Sunday will increase

:50:48. > :50:52.costs in the large stores that stay open longer. There will be some

:50:53. > :50:57.displacement from convenience stores to larger retailers, but little or

:50:58. > :51:04.more increase in overall trade to pay for the increased cost in most

:51:05. > :51:09.shops. I will make some more progress. The larger retailers who

:51:10. > :51:15.open longer will have to find a way to reduce costs. This means removing

:51:16. > :51:21.the premium for shop workers. As the major retailers operate UK wide,

:51:22. > :51:29.changes in England and Wales will mean changes in Scotland and

:51:30. > :51:33.Northern Ireland as well. Premium paid on Sundays is possible because

:51:34. > :51:43.most of the retailers in the UK are restricted to six hours of opening.

:51:44. > :51:50.This is a UK wide matter, and it is entirely appropriate that members