:00:00. > :00:00.he gave such inaccurate information? I would not have made that comment
:00:00. > :00:00.without having been told by the Ministry of Defence that that was
:00:00. > :00:11.the case, so I will have to ask them to respond to him. Order. Statement,
:00:12. > :00:18.the Secretary of State for Wales. Secretary Stephen Crabb. I will make
:00:19. > :00:24.a statement on the publication of the report of the mercury view. On
:00:25. > :00:26.the 5th of November 2012, the Prime Minister announced the stubs of an
:00:27. > :00:30.independent review into the scope and conduct of Sir Ronald Waterhouse
:00:31. > :00:40.inquiry into allegations of child abuse in care homes include between
:00:41. > :00:44.1974 and 1990. We are talking about dark and shameful events that are
:00:45. > :00:47.stain on our nation. These were children in the care of the state
:00:48. > :00:54.because they were vulnerable and the state let them down.
:00:55. > :01:00.Our first thought will always be the victims, supporting them in bringing
:01:01. > :01:06.the perpetrators to justice. A review of Waterhouse forward
:01:07. > :01:08.significant public concern that the terms of reference had been too
:01:09. > :01:15.narrow, and allegations of child abuse had not been properly
:01:16. > :01:24.investigated. Particularly when they concerned prominent individuals. The
:01:25. > :01:28.Waterhouse implied it was established following allegations of
:01:29. > :01:36.an Demichelis abuse in care homes in Wales. The final report, published
:01:37. > :01:46.in 2000, concluded that widespread sexual abuse of boys occurred in
:01:47. > :01:51.children's residential establishments in Clwyd in 1990. And
:01:52. > :01:54.that there was a paedophile ring operating, but no reference was made
:01:55. > :02:02.to being carried out by prominent individuals. In November 2012, the
:02:03. > :02:13.then Secretary of State for Justice and my predecessor announced this
:02:14. > :02:18.review would be headed by a justice of the High Court divisions. Her
:02:19. > :02:27.terms of reference were to review the scope of Waterhouse, and to make
:02:28. > :02:32.recommendations to the secretaries of State for Justice and Wales. The
:02:33. > :02:43.lady Justice admitted her report to the Secretary of State in December
:02:44. > :02:45.2015, and I would like to pay tribute to Lady Justice Macur, and
:02:46. > :02:57.the diligence and carrying out the work, particularly in the light of
:02:58. > :03:01.the amount of information. She has conducted interviews with
:03:02. > :03:04.individuals closely involved with the work of Waterhouse, with those
:03:05. > :03:08.who provided written submissions to Waterhouse, with those involved in
:03:09. > :03:12.police investigations and with those who worked on the prosecution files
:03:13. > :03:18.of those accused of the abuse of children in care in North Wales. She
:03:19. > :03:23.published a paper in English and in Welsh, with suggestions of broad
:03:24. > :03:28.areas of interest to prompt written submissions from those affected. She
:03:29. > :03:34.also arranged a public meeting in Wrexham to engage with those in the
:03:35. > :03:39.local area. Having completed the work, Lady Justice Macur's main
:03:40. > :03:42.finding is, I quote, I have found no reason to undermine the conclusions
:03:43. > :03:48.of Waterhouse in respect of the nature and scale of abuse. Lady
:03:49. > :03:53.Justice Macur looked at this serious issue of nationally prominent
:03:54. > :03:56.figures and concluded beer was, I quote, no evidence of the
:03:57. > :04:02.involvement of nationally prominent individuals in the abuse of children
:04:03. > :04:07.in care in North Wales between 1974 and 1996. While the government
:04:08. > :04:10.welcomes this finding, the context in which it was made must never be
:04:11. > :04:18.forgotten. In addressing concerns about the time taken by the former
:04:19. > :04:25.Welsh office to set up the enquiry in the mid-19 90s, Lady Justice
:04:26. > :04:28.Macur recognises there was reluctance to undertake a public
:04:29. > :04:31.enquiry, but she concludes that any reluctance to undertake a public
:04:32. > :04:37.enquiry was not with a view to protect politicians or other
:04:38. > :04:39.establishment figures, and the government was right to consider the
:04:40. > :04:47.different options since a public enquiry was understood to be a major
:04:48. > :04:49.undertaking. She is also clear that waiting until CPS investigations
:04:50. > :04:57.were completed was the correct decision, as the government would be
:04:58. > :05:00.subject to criticism in any situation that compromised ongoing
:05:01. > :05:06.investigation or trials of accused abusers. Lady Justice Macur makes
:05:07. > :05:10.clear she is satisfied that Waterhouse's terms of reference were
:05:11. > :05:13.not framed to conceal the identities of any establishment figure, nor
:05:14. > :05:20.have they been interpreted by the tribunal with the design to do so.
:05:21. > :05:26.She has also found that despite the Welsh office being both a
:05:27. > :05:34.commissioning department, there was ample... Freemasonry has been a
:05:35. > :05:39.persistent area of concern in North Wales and is referenced extensively
:05:40. > :05:44.in Waterhouse, and I am grateful to Lady Justice Macur for her
:05:45. > :05:49.explorations of this issue. But she is satisfied that the impact of
:05:50. > :05:53.Freemasonry on the impact on this tribunal was soundly researched and
:05:54. > :05:56.presented and pursued. And that there is nothing to call into
:05:57. > :06:04.question the adequacy of the tribunal's investigations into the
:06:05. > :06:10.allegations of Freemasonry in the process. She states that I make
:06:11. > :06:14.clear that I have seen no evidence of child abuse by politicians or
:06:15. > :06:17.national establishment figures in the documents which were available
:06:18. > :06:24.to the Waterhouse tribunal. Save that that could be classed as
:06:25. > :06:27.unreliable speculation. On the direct evidence before them she also
:06:28. > :06:32.found it was not unreasonable for the tribunal to conclude that there
:06:33. > :06:36.was no evidence of a further paedophile ring in existence outside
:06:37. > :06:42.that described by Waterhouse. In addition to her main finding, that
:06:43. > :06:46.she has no reason to undermine Waterhouse's conclusions, Lady
:06:47. > :06:50.Justice Macur makes six recommendations. Her first relates
:06:51. > :06:53.to ensuring that any public enquiry or the investigation or review can
:06:54. > :06:59.be objectively viewed as beyond repair. The government agrees. We
:07:00. > :07:03.have already been clear that during the establishment of the Independent
:07:04. > :07:10.enquiry into child sexual abuse in 2014, we did not get it right in
:07:11. > :07:16.appointing to jurors who failed to win the trust of survivors. This
:07:17. > :07:18.principle should be observed in the subsequent enquiries, investigations
:07:19. > :07:22.are reviews. The second recommendation is that the correct
:07:23. > :07:26.archiving of material of an important public enquiry or review
:07:27. > :07:30.is essential. This links to the third recommendation, that all
:07:31. > :07:33.government departments should possess an accurate database of the
:07:34. > :07:39.documents and materials held by them. We agree with both
:07:40. > :07:41.recommendations. When the Welsh office, which established
:07:42. > :07:47.Waterhouse, was disbanded in 1999, the files it held on newly devolved
:07:48. > :07:51.issues such as social care and children services were transferred
:07:52. > :07:56.to the National Assembly for Wales, and this included the Waterhouse
:07:57. > :08:01.computer database. When Lady Justice Macur requested this it was found
:08:02. > :08:07.that in 2008, Welsh government IT contractors had cleared its contents
:08:08. > :08:11.were, corrupted and unreadable, and it had therefore been destroyed.
:08:12. > :08:14.Lady Justice Macur finds that this was an innocent mistake rather than
:08:15. > :08:18.calculated. Files related to Waterhouse will not be returned to
:08:19. > :08:23.the Wales Office, given the historical importance, and have been
:08:24. > :08:26.transferred to the Welsh government for transmission into the National
:08:27. > :08:31.Archives. The government accepts the criticism made for the way that
:08:32. > :08:36.documents were stored. Similar criticisms were made about the Home
:08:37. > :08:41.Office in an enquiry into thousand and 14. Following the
:08:42. > :08:44.recommendations on management of files containing records of child
:08:45. > :08:51.sexual abuse, the Cabinet Secretary asked all permanent secretaries to
:08:52. > :08:56.see what lessons could be learned and put in place safeguards.
:08:57. > :09:00.Likewise, following the God at enquiry, a moratorium was announced
:09:01. > :09:05.on the destruction of information and put in place processes for the
:09:06. > :09:08.storage of such material. The failure of the new Wales Office in
:09:09. > :09:13.1999 under the previous government to adequately archive the material
:09:14. > :09:19.is inexcusable, but a much more rigorous approach to records
:09:20. > :09:23.management is now in place, abiding by the policy on records Management.
:09:24. > :09:28.Her fourth recommendation is that due criminal process is better
:09:29. > :09:34.suited to the disposal of any unresolved complaints and
:09:35. > :09:39.allegations that were not allocated during the enquiry. The government
:09:40. > :09:44.agrees and welcomes the work of the operation on this area. The fifth
:09:45. > :09:51.recommendation relates to consideration of criminal charges
:09:52. > :09:56.relating to events referenced in paragraph 6.45 two paragraph 6.75.
:09:57. > :10:00.This does not relate to the actions of the Welsh office or any other
:10:01. > :10:04.government department, and the Police and Crime Panel is due and
:10:05. > :10:07.are aware of the specifics of this matter and it is for them to
:10:08. > :10:11.consider further. Her final recommendation relates to the
:10:12. > :10:17.process of establishing a review into previous tribunal is our boards
:10:18. > :10:27.of enquiry. She notes notes that the conclusion of anybody will not meet
:10:28. > :10:30.with approval, and any... The government understands that it is
:10:31. > :10:36.inevitable that some people will remain dissatisfied despite the
:10:37. > :10:41.comprehensive work undertaken by the Waterhouse enquiry and mobile Lady
:10:42. > :10:45.Justice Mercure. -- Lady Justice Macur. Campaigners have said that
:10:46. > :10:52.the report should have been published about LA, and I share that
:10:53. > :10:59.need for openness and transparency, but Lady Justice Macur says her
:11:00. > :11:02.final report contains information, including the names of some
:11:03. > :11:05.individuals, that it would not be possible to publish. She notes that
:11:06. > :11:10.certain parts of her report should be redacted pending the outcome is
:11:11. > :11:14.of legal proceedings and investigations. We have a work
:11:15. > :11:20.closely with the director of public Rosicrucians, representatives of
:11:21. > :11:24.previous operations, to ensure that no investigations or trials will be
:11:25. > :11:39.prejudiced by the release of this report. -- Director of Public
:11:40. > :11:45.Prosecutions. Lady Justice Macur cautioned that under the sexual
:11:46. > :12:04.offences act of 1992, victims of alleged sexual offences entitled to
:12:05. > :12:08.lifelong anonymity. We have accepted advice regarding this, and a small
:12:09. > :12:16.number of reductions have been made. The full details of the process have
:12:17. > :12:22.been set out, and today I am publishing them alongside this
:12:23. > :12:28.report. Finally, Lady Justice Macur urged caution relating to releasing
:12:29. > :12:33.names of individuals accused of abuse are speculated to this, who
:12:34. > :12:44.have not been subject to an investigation, have not been
:12:45. > :12:53.arrested for an offence, and she argued that to do so would be unfair
:12:54. > :12:57.in two respects. First, the nature of the information against them
:12:58. > :13:02.sometimes derives from hearsay. Second, the individuals will have no
:13:03. > :13:05.opportunity to address the attributed and sometimes unspecified
:13:06. > :13:10.allegations of disreputable conduct made against them, and third, police
:13:11. > :13:16.investigations may be compromised. We have followed that advice and
:13:17. > :13:21.remove the names today. It is a fundamental tenet of the law in this
:13:22. > :13:30.country that those accused of crime are able to face accusers in court,
:13:31. > :13:34.with a jury of peers. It would be irresponsible for the government to
:13:35. > :13:39.behave differently regarding hearsay. To provide total clarity on
:13:40. > :13:47.the process by which this group of names was redacted, I am publishing
:13:48. > :13:56.today a letter from the Treasury solicitor setting this out. I am
:13:57. > :14:03.also saying that a report has been provided to the wider enquiry in
:14:04. > :14:06.jail sexual abuse to aid its investigations. It has also been
:14:07. > :14:12.seen by the Crown Prosecution Service and representatives of the
:14:13. > :14:16.three operations. As a government we are determined to see that those
:14:17. > :14:21.guilty of crimes against children in North Wales are brought to justice,
:14:22. > :14:27.and this is happening through the work of one of the operations. In
:14:28. > :14:36.December 2012, the chief constables of North Wales Police asked for the
:14:37. > :14:40.operation to look into recent allegations of historic abuse in the
:14:41. > :14:48.care system in Wales. Seven men have been convicted of one or more
:14:49. > :15:02.offences and a further eight acquitted after a trial. One man was
:15:03. > :15:08.found guilty in December 2014 of 33 cases of child abuse. Another group
:15:09. > :15:14.received 44 years in jail, having been found guilty of 34 offences of
:15:15. > :15:20.abuse. The operation has now been contacted by 334 people who have had
:15:21. > :15:25.the trust and confidence to come forward to report abuse. A total of
:15:26. > :15:30.102 complaints are actively being investigated at this moment. A total
:15:31. > :15:36.of 51 men and women have been arrested or interviewed under
:15:37. > :15:39.caution, work to locate further suspects is continuing. 16 people
:15:40. > :15:45.have been charged or brought to court as a result of this. Charging
:15:46. > :15:50.advices awaited in relation to a further 26 suspects. Total of 32
:15:51. > :15:55.suspects are believed to be dead, and work is ongoing to confirm this.
:15:56. > :16:00.An independent review against 25 deceased suspects has indicated that
:16:01. > :16:02.there would have been sufficient evidence to make a case to the CPS
:16:03. > :16:12.for them to be charged. Pallial those who made complaints
:16:13. > :16:16.have been updated by the team. A further two trials have been set for
:16:17. > :16:22.2016, with further trials expected. In closing, I would like to thank
:16:23. > :16:26.Lady Justice Macur and her team for their diligent and exhaustive work
:16:27. > :16:30.in providing this report. I would like to pay tribute to the courage
:16:31. > :16:34.of those victims for coming forward and reliving the horrible detail of
:16:35. > :16:38.their experiences to ensure that the truth can be established. And I
:16:39. > :16:41.would like to pay tribute to the police, the Crown Prosecution
:16:42. > :16:44.Service and the Director of Public Prosecutions for their collective
:16:45. > :16:48.work to ensure that those involved in the abuse of children in north
:16:49. > :16:52.Wales, who perhaps thought that the mists of time had hidden the evil
:16:53. > :17:00.crimes forever, are now being made to pay for what they did. I commend
:17:01. > :17:02.this statement to the House. I thank the Secretary of State for his
:17:03. > :17:07.statement and for advance sight of it. The horrific abuse that was
:17:08. > :17:11.carried out at care homes in north Wales has shocked us all, and our
:17:12. > :17:16.thoughts today must be with the survivors. Not only did they endure
:17:17. > :17:21.violence from those who were meant to protect them, but they have had
:17:22. > :17:27.to wait years, decades to be heard. I would like to picture beauty my
:17:28. > :17:32.right honourable friend -- pay tribute to my honourable friend who
:17:33. > :17:37.has campaigned since these allegations came to light. Some of
:17:38. > :17:42.those who were abused have since taken their own lives. It is
:17:43. > :17:47.therefore right that we think of their families today, and of
:17:48. > :17:51.everyone affected by this scandal. The extent of the abuse revealed by
:17:52. > :17:57.the Waterhouse inquiry was staggering. It found evidence of
:17:58. > :18:01.widespread and persistent physical and sexual abuse, including multiple
:18:02. > :18:06.rapes carried out against young boys and girls. This abuse was allowed to
:18:07. > :18:10.take place over many years, sometimes decades, in the very homes
:18:11. > :18:17.were vulnerable children should have felt safe. The scale of the abuse is
:18:18. > :18:22.shocking, but it is also shocking that many of the inquiries into this
:18:23. > :18:25.abuse have encountered a reluctance to cooperate with them and a refusal
:18:26. > :18:33.to publish their conclusions. In short, cover up some missed
:18:34. > :18:36.opportunities. As the Secretary of State has indicated, the Macur
:18:37. > :18:40.Review was set up to examine whether any specific allegations of child
:18:41. > :18:45.abuse falling within the terms of reference of the Waterhouse inquiry
:18:46. > :18:51.were not investigated. On behalf of the opposition, I extend our thanks
:18:52. > :18:56.to Lady Justice Macur and her review team for the work they have
:18:57. > :19:00.undertaken. In light of what has happened to previous reports and the
:19:01. > :19:04.overwhelming need for transparency, I welcome the fact that the Macur
:19:05. > :19:09.Review has now been published. There may be cases where redactions are
:19:10. > :19:12.needed, not least to ensure that no ongoing police investigation is
:19:13. > :19:18.compromised. But these redactions must be as few as possible, and they
:19:19. > :19:25.must be justified to survivors. Can the Secretary of State confirm that
:19:26. > :19:30.this review, along with the other reports and inquiries into abuse in
:19:31. > :19:34.north Wales, will be made available in full to the independent inquiry
:19:35. > :19:39.into child sexual abuse? And that this inquiry will be able to see
:19:40. > :19:45.full, unredacted copies of these reports? The Waterhouse inquiry
:19:46. > :19:50.found that most children did not feel able to come forward to report
:19:51. > :19:56.what had happened to them. Those who did were discouraged from taking
:19:57. > :19:59.matters further. Were it not for the bravery of whistle-blower Alison
:20:00. > :20:05.Taylor, many cases of abuse would not have been uncovered. Whilst we
:20:06. > :20:07.recognise that processes for safeguarding children have changed
:20:08. > :20:13.radically since many of these cases took place, we must be ready to
:20:14. > :20:18.learn lessons to ensure that we can protect children better in the
:20:19. > :20:23.future. Having studied this report, can the Secretary of State tell the
:20:24. > :20:27.House what changes in policy the government feels are necessary? And
:20:28. > :20:34.what steps will the government take to ensure a coordinated response to
:20:35. > :20:39.any future cases, wherever they occur, whether in the public,
:20:40. > :20:41.private or third sector? And does he believe there is sufficient
:20:42. > :20:48.protection for whistle-blowers like Alison Taylor? Finally, we know that
:20:49. > :20:53.physical and sexual abuse leaves a lasting impact on the lives of those
:20:54. > :20:56.affected. In recent years, many survivors have felt able to come
:20:57. > :21:02.forward to report the abuse that they experienced. Following the
:21:03. > :21:05.announcement of this review, we know a number of people made contact with
:21:06. > :21:08.the children's Commissioner for Wales, and it is possible that
:21:09. > :21:13.others will come forward as a result of this review been published. No
:21:14. > :21:17.matter how long ago the abuse took place, survivors need support to
:21:18. > :21:19.rebuild their lives, so can the Secretary of State set out what
:21:20. > :21:24.support is being given to those survivors of abuse who have come
:21:25. > :21:27.forward, and what conversations he has had with agencies including the
:21:28. > :21:35.children's Commissioner for Wales to ensure that survivors of abuse
:21:36. > :21:40.nowhere to turn? The scale of the abuse has shocked the whole of
:21:41. > :21:43.society. It is now clear that thousands of children were targeted
:21:44. > :21:48.by predatory abusers in places where they should have felt safe. Too many
:21:49. > :21:52.of these children were let down for a second time when they reached out
:21:53. > :21:56.for help, but nothing was done. Our duty is to make sure the survivors
:21:57. > :22:01.of abuse are listened to, that those who report abuse have sufficient
:22:02. > :22:06.protection and that anyone responsible for violence against
:22:07. > :22:10.children is brought to justice. Most of all, we must ensure that this
:22:11. > :22:20.appalling abuse can never be allowed to happen again. I am grateful to
:22:21. > :22:27.the honourable lady for her response to the statement and the spirit in
:22:28. > :22:31.which she gives it. I agree with her in paying tribute to the honourable
:22:32. > :22:36.member for conning value and the long-standing work she has put in to
:22:37. > :22:43.try to achieve justice for her constituents who suffered abuse and
:22:44. > :22:49.for the wider number of residents in those care homes at the time. When
:22:50. > :22:54.we discussed the recent Wales Office questions and the honourable member
:22:55. > :22:57.ask me about the redactions issue, the commitment I gave to her was
:22:58. > :23:01.that everything would be done to ensure that redactions were kept to
:23:02. > :23:10.a minimum and that we would be able to explain the reasons why
:23:11. > :23:17.redactions were being made. I believe we have set out the reasons
:23:18. > :23:21.why redactions are being made, and I would encourage members to look at
:23:22. > :23:25.the specific remarks that Lady Justice Macur makes in her report,
:23:26. > :23:30.urging caution when it comes to printing the names of individuals in
:23:31. > :23:35.the categories she describes. I hope those explanations quite ample
:23:36. > :23:40.justification for why the redactions are being made. On the question of
:23:41. > :23:43.whether we are making a full, unredacted version of the report
:23:44. > :23:50.available to the independent inquiry, yes we are. We have also
:23:51. > :24:00.made available a full, unredacted copy to the crap education service
:24:01. > :24:06.-- to the Crown Prosecution Service and other agencies. The honourable
:24:07. > :24:15.lady Astra changes in policy practice -- she asked about changes
:24:16. > :24:20.in policy and practice. The report recommends changes in the way
:24:21. > :24:27.material is stored. That was one of the weaknesses Lady Justice Macur
:24:28. > :24:31.found after 2012. She used the word disarray, that many of the files
:24:32. > :24:35.were in. There are lessons to be learned for the whole of government,
:24:36. > :24:39.whether that is devolved administrations or UK Government,
:24:40. > :24:48.about sensitive material and the way it is archived. In terms of the
:24:49. > :24:55.wider issue of how we support survivors of abuse, there has been
:24:56. > :24:59.an enormous cultural change in the last 30 years in Wales and
:25:00. > :25:08.throughout the UK, which is one of the reasons why more survivors feel
:25:09. > :25:11.empowered to come forward as part of Operation Pallial and to relive
:25:12. > :25:17.those events and make allegations which are being pursued vigorously
:25:18. > :25:20.by the National Crime Agency. If you look at developments since the
:25:21. > :25:24.1990s, with the establishment of things like the children's
:25:25. > :25:27.Commissioner for Wales, these are positive developments which show
:25:28. > :25:31.that as a society, we don't get everything right and there was much
:25:32. > :25:37.more to do, but we have made a lot of progress in the way we support
:25:38. > :25:43.victims of sexual abuse and the way we addressed this issue. That is not
:25:44. > :25:47.to be complacent. There is no sense of complacency in Lady Justice
:25:48. > :25:52.Macur's report that we are publishing today. I hope that
:25:53. > :25:56.addresses the specific questions that the honourable lady asked. She
:25:57. > :26:00.also asked what support the independent Goddard inquiry has been
:26:01. > :26:04.provided with. That inquiry will shortly be opening an office in
:26:05. > :26:13.Cardiff to reach out to survivors in Wales. It will work in both English
:26:14. > :26:18.and Welsh. I thank the Secretary of State for his statement. And I pay
:26:19. > :26:26.tribute to the work done by Lady Justice Macur, which has been a
:26:27. > :26:30.monumental undertaking for her. The events she was investigating have
:26:31. > :26:36.cast a dark cloud for many years over north Wales and the Chester
:26:37. > :26:42.area. I hope the report that has been published today will ease those
:26:43. > :26:46.concerns, but I have to say to my right honourable friend that I have
:26:47. > :26:53.my own concerns that there are two respects in which that concern will
:26:54. > :26:58.remain. In the first place, there is the issue of the absence of the
:26:59. > :27:04.documentation. I accept what my right honourable friend says about
:27:05. > :27:11.the storage, which was frankly a catalogue of disasters. But can he
:27:12. > :27:14.assured the House that not only his department and her Majesty's
:27:15. > :27:18.government have learned the lessons in terms of storage, but also the
:27:19. > :27:25.Welsh assembly government, which had custody of those documents and which
:27:26. > :27:32.has lost them bys secondly, there is the issue of redactions. This will
:27:33. > :27:37.be a matter that will cause the most concern in north Wales. I understand
:27:38. > :27:49.the reasons my right honourable friend has given and which were made
:27:50. > :27:56.by Lady Justice Macur. But can he confirm that justice Goddard will
:27:57. > :28:00.have the right to pursue in her own inquiry the identities of those
:28:01. > :28:09.whose names have been redacted in the report he has given? I am
:28:10. > :28:12.grateful to my honourable friend for his questions. He was one of the
:28:13. > :28:19.joint commissioning secretaries of State for the foundation of the
:28:20. > :28:23.Mercure review. He asked two questions. One is about the absence
:28:24. > :28:33.of documentation. The inclusion that Lady Justice Macur comes to is that
:28:34. > :28:36.she has seen enough documentation, but she has seen enough
:28:37. > :28:42.documentation from the Waterhouse tribunal to make strong conclusions
:28:43. > :28:46.about the overall findings that Waterhouse reached, and she supports
:28:47. > :28:50.those findings based on her exhaustive trawl through a million
:28:51. > :28:55.plus pages of documentation. Where there are gaps, the conclusions she
:28:56. > :28:59.reaches other those are not sufficient to cast into doubt the
:29:00. > :29:03.overall findings she makes. His second point in relation to
:29:04. > :29:09.redactions, again, I make the point that a full, unredacted copy has
:29:10. > :29:20.gone to the Goddard inquiry. She asks -- he asks whether a full copy
:29:21. > :29:29.will go to other agencies. The police are best placed to go after
:29:30. > :29:40.the names of those where there are specific allegations. Public inquiry
:29:41. > :29:46.is not the best form for doing that. Page 300 of the Waterhouse report
:29:47. > :29:50.lists the names of 13 young men who couldn't give evidence to the new
:29:51. > :29:56.report because they have lost their lives. Most of them took their lives
:29:57. > :30:01.following the case where they went before those who were accused, who
:30:02. > :30:06.were all used to giving evidence in court, some of them because of their
:30:07. > :30:13.police backgrounds. The victims were torn to shreds in a merciless way,
:30:14. > :30:17.and several of them took their lives as a direct consequence of the abuse
:30:18. > :30:24.being continued by our court system, and it is still continuing today.
:30:25. > :30:32.This report would not have been revealed if not for the work of the
:30:33. > :30:40.member for Cynon Valley and the journalists. It is difficult to
:30:41. > :30:46.judge this report before giving this full consideration, but this is a
:30:47. > :30:49.heartbreaking story of abuse and of those responsible for the abuse
:30:50. > :30:55.laughing as they went away from the courts, and the innocent seeing
:30:56. > :30:59.their lives end prematurely. We need to look further into this and we
:31:00. > :31:06.will look carefully at why the names of some of them are still being
:31:07. > :31:12.redacted. Is the long abuse of those people still continuing?
:31:13. > :31:29.I thank him for his question. Here is exactly right, we're talking
:31:30. > :31:35.about Venus, -- heinous acts of abuse, and people in the care of the
:31:36. > :31:38.state. I do not think that today's report will bring full closure to
:31:39. > :31:48.absolutely everybody who lived through those experiences. In the
:31:49. > :31:52.diligence and the way that Lady Justice Macur has gone through her
:31:53. > :31:55.task, owing through all of the paper House of the Waterhouse tribunal to
:31:56. > :32:01.try to make sense of whether victims were getting a fair shout, and
:32:02. > :32:08.whether all of those questions about nationally prominent individuals and
:32:09. > :32:10.further paedophile rings were being investigated, and the role of
:32:11. > :32:16.Freemasonry, I believe she has done a thorough job. I urge everyone to
:32:17. > :32:21.read this report fully today and to reflect on its conclusions. In terms
:32:22. > :32:26.of continuing the investigation of those who are guilty, there are
:32:27. > :32:30.people walking around in North Wales, else within the United
:32:31. > :32:34.Kingdom, right now, who were there at the time, who participated in
:32:35. > :32:41.these acts, who witnessed these acts, who went four years thinking
:32:42. > :32:46.they were untouchable. I hope the summary of achievements with
:32:47. > :32:49.operation Pallial will demonstrate people should be walking around and
:32:50. > :32:54.looking over their shoulder. These are extremely sensitive matters. So
:32:55. > :32:59.I say this with care. But it would be appreciated if colleagues could
:33:00. > :33:07.be economic all in the questions and answers, simply because the budget
:33:08. > :33:12.debate is heavily subscribed, but we will have an exemplary lesson from
:33:13. > :33:17.Mr Mark Pritchard. What happened in North Wales is nothing short of a
:33:18. > :33:30.national scandal Wales, but I would like to put on record that thanks to
:33:31. > :33:37.those who do these jobs with care. Can I ask him, what discussions has
:33:38. > :33:42.he had with the National Crime Agency about operation Pallial, to
:33:43. > :33:48.ensure we get more people into court and prosecuted for these heinous
:33:49. > :33:54.crimes? We put on record today our thanks and appreciation for those
:33:55. > :33:56.who work hard in the care sector and supporting vulnerable children
:33:57. > :34:02.whenever they are in the United Kingdom. The National Crime Agency
:34:03. > :34:07.have kept me up dated with the progress of operation Pallial.
:34:08. > :34:10.Yesterday I spoke to the director of the National Crime Agency for a
:34:11. > :34:15.further discussion, and I am confident that the NCA is pursuing
:34:16. > :34:23.all lines of investigation vigorously at this point in time.
:34:24. > :34:26.Abuse survivors will be dismayed at this morning's litany of name
:34:27. > :34:34.concealing and destruction of evidence. They may rightly feel that
:34:35. > :34:41.their evidence is transient, disposable and not worth
:34:42. > :34:46.safeguarding. How will they work with Welsh government to ensure this
:34:47. > :34:52.never happens again? She is right that people will feel like that, and
:34:53. > :34:57.I would say to take time and go through the report to see the way
:34:58. > :35:10.Lady Justice Macur has gone through the information and answered to the
:35:11. > :35:19.best of her ability the questions raised. There is always more we can
:35:20. > :35:23.learn as a society. At in terms of where we are in Wales right now,
:35:24. > :35:28.with the children's Commissioners office, the work Welsh government is
:35:29. > :35:36.doing, there is good collaboration between UK departments and the Welsh
:35:37. > :35:43.government. The work is positive and will carry on. The people of
:35:44. > :35:48.Wrexham, when many of these horrible events took place, will be
:35:49. > :35:53.astonished by the contents of the statement today. As a solicitor who
:35:54. > :35:56.practised in the courts around Wrexham in the 80s and 90s, I am
:35:57. > :36:01.astonished by the contents of the statement. I know he referred only
:36:02. > :36:05.fleetingly to some reluctance in the old Welsh office to undertake a
:36:06. > :36:09.public enquiry in the 1990s, and I will be leading the report very
:36:10. > :36:14.closely in this respect, but can the Secretary of State tell me, why is
:36:15. > :36:19.it that following the Waterhouse enquiry, prosecutions that are now
:36:20. > :36:26.taking place in Pallial did not take place in 2000? He did not address
:36:27. > :36:33.that in his statement. I thank him for his question. He expresses
:36:34. > :36:35.astonishment, and in response that I would say that if he has specific
:36:36. > :36:42.information about individuals, he knows where to go with it, the
:36:43. > :36:48.police. In response to his question, about why the arrests were not made
:36:49. > :36:55.30 years ago, I have put back to the National Crime Agency, and my
:36:56. > :36:58.responses that the publicity in recent years, because of the culture
:36:59. > :37:01.change, a lot more people feel compelled to come forward, which is
:37:02. > :37:13.one of the reasons we are securing greater convictions from people who
:37:14. > :37:26.are willing to come forward. As the Macur review had unfettered access,
:37:27. > :37:30.can he let us know by the Waterhouse enquiry did not mean people in its
:37:31. > :37:34.first report? Some of the individuals worked on the Waterhouse
:37:35. > :37:39.tribunal are no longer living, but she has pursued to the best of her
:37:40. > :37:43.ability direct conversations with people who worked on the Waterhouse
:37:44. > :37:52.tribunal at the time, and she has also reached out to survivors, she
:37:53. > :37:56.held a public event in Wrexham, this was not just her going through boxes
:37:57. > :38:03.of documents, to explore all of these questions. She explains why
:38:04. > :38:08.names should not just be bandied about. She explains clearly why Arab
:38:09. > :38:14.action processes necessary, and I would encourage him to look through
:38:15. > :38:19.that -- by production process is necessary. He was right to
:38:20. > :38:27.acknowledge the anguish and suffering these events have caused.
:38:28. > :38:38.Would he agree that it is absolutely vital that victims get support with
:38:39. > :38:42.mental health and therapy, and will some of the money being invested
:38:43. > :38:49.goes to help -- go to help victims of this? He makes an important
:38:50. > :38:54.point, no matter how far back the events occurred. I can give
:38:55. > :38:57.assurance to the honourable member that those people who have come
:38:58. > :39:02.forward, it is not just a question of listening and receiving evidence,
:39:03. > :39:10.there is consideration of what further support can be given. Some
:39:11. > :39:15.victims do not believe they can come forward, they have families of the
:39:16. > :39:19.Rome, and the episodes in the past that they are keeping deeply buried.
:39:20. > :39:24.It is a choice for the individual survivors. Many of my constituents
:39:25. > :39:31.who have been abused have felt let down because of the delays coming
:39:32. > :39:36.out, because they are abusers have died and they will not get the
:39:37. > :39:43.justice they deserve. On the issue of records, does the report covers
:39:44. > :39:47.records held by local authorities in North Wales, because I have heard
:39:48. > :40:01.from constituents who have had difficulty obtaining records. This
:40:02. > :40:06.relates to records being kept by national government. Hearts of the
:40:07. > :40:18.report goes into some detail the way that local authorities, the former
:40:19. > :40:20.local authorities of Clwyd and Gwynnd, and I would encourage the
:40:21. > :40:31.honourable gentleman to read through it, and there will be an opportunity
:40:32. > :40:37.to explore this further. Klerk will now proceed to lead the orders of
:40:38. > :40:41.the day. Ways and Means adjourned debate on question. The question is
:40:42. > :40:45.as on the order paper.