24/03/2016

:00:00. > :00:00.the view that he wants to ensure that Department implements the

:00:00. > :00:07.welfare reforms we legislate for properly and I am sure he will have

:00:08. > :00:13.heard what we said today. Point of order. I think all of the House,

:00:14. > :00:19.every member, is grateful for the particular messages about security

:00:20. > :00:26.that we have received this week in light of the tragedy, and tragedies,

:00:27. > :00:30.across Europe. But would she inform the House what we backbenchers and

:00:31. > :00:36.other members of this size can feedback any concerns they have in

:00:37. > :00:42.response to that? Is there a formal process or could we invent one?

:00:43. > :00:44.Well, I am grateful for the honourable gentleman for raising

:00:45. > :00:49.such an important matter on the floor of the House and I am sure he

:00:50. > :00:54.is right in saying that all members of the sites will be member for --

:00:55. > :00:57.will be grateful for the new advice and procedures that we have not only

:00:58. > :01:02.got a projection of members but for the many, many people who work for

:01:03. > :01:07.members both in their size and in a constituency offices. There are

:01:08. > :01:11.various ways in which the honourable gentleman and they other honourable

:01:12. > :01:19.members can feedback or discuss further measures are further advised

:01:20. > :01:23.that may be necessary. One is through the Sergeant at Arms. I am

:01:24. > :01:29.also aware that the Chairman of Ways and Means has spoken in person to

:01:30. > :01:33.many members of the House about this in his capacity as chairman of

:01:34. > :01:38.various committees which deal with the matter. And the honourable

:01:39. > :01:42.gentleman has very cleverly now raised the matter on the floor of

:01:43. > :01:53.the House. It is therefore a matter of record and I am glad that he has

:01:54. > :01:58.done so. Madam Deputy Speaker, following the application this

:01:59. > :02:01.morning from the opposition Chief Whip for elections in Baltimore and

:02:02. > :02:09.Sheffield Brightside, a member of the government benches shouted out

:02:10. > :02:12.any more. It was hugely disrespectful to our late friend and

:02:13. > :02:17.colleague and I seek guidance as to how situation may be addressed. I am

:02:18. > :02:23.quite taken aback by what the honourable lady has said. I was not

:02:24. > :02:28.in the chamber at that point and a soul I have no personal knowledge of

:02:29. > :02:33.it but if indeed any member of this House made a remark like that at a

:02:34. > :02:37.time when the writ was being moved after the death of a member of this

:02:38. > :02:41.House, they simply should not have done so. And if nobody else has told

:02:42. > :02:46.them that they should not have done so, I am telling them now. And I

:02:47. > :02:51.hope that will be taken note of. I am grateful to the honourable lady

:02:52. > :02:56.for reasons such a sensitive matter. Sorry, I will go this way! Madam

:02:57. > :03:02.Deputy Speaker, could you advise me on how I can put on the record my

:03:03. > :03:08.concern that there has been absolute silence from separatist activists

:03:09. > :03:11.about the fact that today was meant to be independent state for them.

:03:12. > :03:16.There has been no reference to this whatsoever in terms of respecting

:03:17. > :03:22.the Scottish electorate. Could you advise me on how to put that on

:03:23. > :03:27.record? Well, I understand the point that the honourable gentleman is

:03:28. > :03:32.making... I understand the point the honourable member is making and I am

:03:33. > :03:36.aware, although I was not in the chair over the last are, that while

:03:37. > :03:43.Mr Speaker was in the chair there honourable members made some very

:03:44. > :03:50.interesting suggestions about how today could be celebrated in future,

:03:51. > :03:54.and I had a feeling that the honourable gentleman's pointers

:03:55. > :03:59.about to be answered by a further point of order from the honourable

:04:00. > :04:03.lady. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am not quite sure where

:04:04. > :04:08.the honourable member was when we were just having business questions,

:04:09. > :04:10.when I specifically made reference. Perhaps that speaks to the fact that

:04:11. > :04:16.members of affairs, particularly those on that side and of the mail

:04:17. > :04:25.fraud, do not listen when women are speaking. How about the start today!

:04:26. > :04:29.-- of the mail fraud. I wish I could correct the honourable lady but the

:04:30. > :04:32.observation that it is often the case that the men did not listen

:04:33. > :04:39.when a female is speaking is indeed the case. But with persistence, we

:04:40. > :04:43.will overcome that. And I am certain I can assure the honourable lady

:04:44. > :04:49.that the chair has heard what she has said and I can assure the

:04:50. > :04:54.honourable gentleman that the matter that he has raised has been properly

:04:55. > :05:02.listened to cure in this House. Further to that point of order,

:05:03. > :05:05.Doctor Julian Lewis. Further to that, can I within the rules of

:05:06. > :05:07.order expressed the hope that during the 23rd will go down as

:05:08. > :05:15.Independence Day for the United Kingdom? -- the 23rd of June. The

:05:16. > :05:22.honourable gentleman knows that is not a matter for the chair and that

:05:23. > :05:25.I would not dream of either encouraging, more forbidding him

:05:26. > :05:33.from expressing that hope over and over again! Madam Deputy Speaker, I

:05:34. > :05:36.raised the point of order on the 9th of February in relation to the

:05:37. > :05:42.government's attitude towards the trade union Bill and Lords'

:05:43. > :05:44.amendments. It got much publicity as discussed the Speaker's reading

:05:45. > :05:49.habits in terms of the Socialist worker. The speaker on the 9th of

:05:50. > :05:54.February advised me to submit a written question to try to get

:05:55. > :05:58.clarity on the worker. Written question to six men in vivo is a

:05:59. > :06:04.named a question submitted by myself on the 11th of debris. I have not

:06:05. > :06:08.had a response. -- in vivo. I was wondering if you could advise me how

:06:09. > :06:12.to get an an answer on behalf of 6 million workers who are trade union

:06:13. > :06:18.members as to what the government's attitude is about the trade union

:06:19. > :06:21.Bill and Amendment? As the honourable gentleman is well aware,

:06:22. > :06:25.and the Speaker will have made clear, that Mr Speaker will have, I

:06:26. > :06:28.am sure, given that advice to the honourable gentleman about putting

:06:29. > :06:35.down a written question because, of course, the answers to questions is

:06:36. > :06:38.not a matter for the chair. But the fact that a question has been

:06:39. > :06:45.submitted and several weeks later has not been answered is a matter

:06:46. > :06:49.which Mr Speaker would... Would most certainly deprecate and I am quite

:06:50. > :06:54.sure that those on the Treasury bench will have heard what the

:06:55. > :06:59.honourable gentleman has said. And that a message will go to the

:07:00. > :07:02.appropriate department that the honourable gentleman should have

:07:03. > :07:06.received an answer. Whether it is the answer that he would like to

:07:07. > :07:11.receive or not is another matter and not one that I can address, but he

:07:12. > :07:16.ought to receive an answer. And I am quite sure that if he does not

:07:17. > :07:19.receive such an answer, in the near future, he will be perfectly

:07:20. > :07:27.justified in raising this matter again on the floor of the House. If

:07:28. > :07:31.there are no more points of order, I thank the deadly to Leader of the

:07:32. > :07:44.House for taking questions this morning and we now, to backbench

:07:45. > :07:46.business, the motion on court closures.

:07:47. > :07:50.Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg to move the motion as on the

:07:51. > :07:54.order paper relating to court closures. I am grateful to the

:07:55. > :07:58.backbench business committee for allocating time for this debate. I

:07:59. > :08:07.requested this debate whether the honourable member for Wales and

:08:08. > :08:10.other for -- wet and other members because of the scale of the Court

:08:11. > :08:15.closure programme, which will the 86 chords and tribunal is closed,

:08:16. > :08:20.compounded by the closures during the last parliament, which saw 146

:08:21. > :08:22.chords cause. Second because of the level of concern expressed by

:08:23. > :08:27.colleagues across the House about the implications of the closure

:08:28. > :08:31.programme for access to justice and the number of flaws within the

:08:32. > :08:38.consultation process which provided the basis for the closure programme.

:08:39. > :08:41.Third, the closures and ends on the last sitting day before February

:08:42. > :08:45.said in a written statement. Adam Deputy Speaker, I feel strongly that

:08:46. > :08:49.both the skill of this closure programme and its implications and

:08:50. > :08:51.simple Asians mean that the resolution have been made in the

:08:52. > :08:54.House and that colleagues should have had the opportunity to raise

:08:55. > :08:58.issues about behalf of their constituents and raise questions

:08:59. > :09:02.about the planned closures and in fact about the time the announcement

:09:03. > :09:08.was made. I am pleased that we will have the opportunity to do this

:09:09. > :09:11.today. Courts have a very wide range of uses. If we consider the

:09:12. > :09:15.hierarchy of Crown Courts, County Courts can't Magistrates' Court,

:09:16. > :09:20.you'd chords, family courts and tribunal, the people who need to be

:09:21. > :09:24.able to access them include jurors, magistrates, victims and witnesses,

:09:25. > :09:29.families in the process of breaking up, a range of public sector staff

:09:30. > :09:34.working directly at the courts, but also bringing cases and acting as

:09:35. > :09:40.witnesses, members of the judiciary and individuals facing trial. It is

:09:41. > :09:44.easy to think of those accessing our courts primarily a suspected

:09:45. > :09:47.criminals but in reality, they are vital public service reaching a very

:09:48. > :09:51.wide range of people in their scope. And it is important that we remember

:09:52. > :09:56.this as we debate this closure programme. I am so grateful for her

:09:57. > :10:02.giving way so early in her speech. Would she agree ascetic areas are to

:10:03. > :10:05.lose their courts as a result of this decision that proper provision

:10:06. > :10:10.needs to be made not least for video conferencing, people living

:10:11. > :10:17.evidence, but also for local newspapers to be able to send a

:10:18. > :10:28.journalist for a particular day? -- if civic courts. Justice has to be

:10:29. > :10:33.seen to be done, as well is actually being done. I will come on to talk

:10:34. > :10:38.in a moment about the role of new technology and other forms of

:10:39. > :10:43.provision in addressing some of the issues presented by the closure

:10:44. > :10:48.programme. I give way. I thank her for giving way, and congratulate her

:10:49. > :10:52.for securing this debate today. All told the court in my constituency

:10:53. > :10:57.will not be causing, it will be taken on the burden from other court

:10:58. > :11:04.closures and buy one of the government's on assessments, people

:11:05. > :11:06.will have to travel over an hour to reach Willesden Magistrates' Court,

:11:07. > :11:11.which I think is a barrier to justice.

:11:12. > :11:14.I thank her for her intervention. That is a very valid set of points

:11:15. > :11:19.about both of the additional burden on courts which will have to absorb

:11:20. > :11:23.the workload of chords that locals but also on travel time, which is a

:11:24. > :11:26.very important issue, particularly for many vulnerable constituents. I

:11:27. > :11:32.will come on to talk about this. I do not have a court or tribunal in

:11:33. > :11:36.my constituency, but my constituents will be very much affected by the

:11:37. > :11:40.planned closure of Lambeth County Court. Almost half of the postcode

:11:41. > :11:45.areas covered fall within my constituency. I am grateful to the

:11:46. > :11:49.Minister for taking the time to meet with me during the competition

:11:50. > :11:54.process and subsequently for taking part in a debate specifically about

:11:55. > :11:58.Lambeth County Court. But Madam Deputy Speaker, despite this

:11:59. > :12:01.engagement, my concerns remain. In justifying the closures, the

:12:02. > :12:06.Minister refers a great deal to the modernisation of the justice system

:12:07. > :12:10.and the use of new technology, but there is great concern that these

:12:11. > :12:14.plans, the closure plans, appear to be putting the cart before the

:12:15. > :12:18.horse. Closing courts and tribunals without a clear plan for replacing

:12:19. > :12:21.the capacity that will be lost with new

:12:22. > :12:26.Speaker, the government should have brought to the House a comprehensive

:12:27. > :12:30.strategy for modernising our courts and tribunals to beat that for the

:12:31. > :12:35.21st century. The plan which sets out clearly what new technology can

:12:36. > :12:40.deliver for our justice system, the investment which needs to be made in

:12:41. > :12:43.order to deliver it and the savings which can be made in physical

:12:44. > :12:48.infrastructure as a consequence of the introduction of new technology.

:12:49. > :12:52.But there is no such plan. What the government has announced is a very

:12:53. > :12:55.significant closure programme, with the promise that after chords and

:12:56. > :12:59.tribunal sub-clause, pilots will take place and investment will be

:13:00. > :13:04.made to introduce new technology. This is a very risky way to treat

:13:05. > :13:09.our justice system. Access to justice is a vital principle in the

:13:10. > :13:15.UK's on written constitution. It was argued chairing the time that Lord

:13:16. > :13:19.Bingham was senior judge of appeal that access to justice is one of the

:13:20. > :13:25.eight sub role that make up the rule of law. He said the best is that

:13:26. > :13:31.means must be provided for resolving that without I have to cost and

:13:32. > :13:35.delay one of ideas several disputes which the parties are unable to

:13:36. > :13:38.resolve themselves. It recognises the right of wannabe did access to a

:13:39. > :13:41.court in the basic right protected by our own domestic law and, in my

:13:42. > :13:54.view, comprised within the principle of the rule of law.

:13:55. > :14:00.Lord Justice laws has said access to the courts is a constitutional

:14:01. > :14:02.right. In relation to the planned courts and tribunal closure

:14:03. > :14:09.programme, the government argued that it effective access to justice

:14:10. > :14:13.does not necessarily mean providing physical access to a building or

:14:14. > :14:18.require us to have a purpose-built court or tribunal in every local

:14:19. > :14:22.area. I contention is that this statement can only possibly be valid

:14:23. > :14:25.if the government can demonstrate that access is provided in a

:14:26. > :14:30.fail-safe way by other means. They simply cannot do this without

:14:31. > :14:35.setting out a clear strategy for how it will be delivered. The Minister

:14:36. > :14:39.has spoken about various things that they be possible, some of which are

:14:40. > :14:47.already happening in some locations. Video links for witnesses to provide

:14:48. > :14:50.evidence, facilities for filing papers online. There is no national

:14:51. > :14:55.standard and no plan for delivery. No assessment has been made of what

:14:56. > :14:58.court and tribunal services and facilities should be available to

:14:59. > :15:04.everyone in every area, which of these can reasonably be provided

:15:05. > :15:07.digitally and which could be provided and dedicated facilities.

:15:08. > :15:11.Let don't think there is much disabilities of the kind of things

:15:12. > :15:14.which might be done and it is impossible to make an assessment of

:15:15. > :15:18.the extent to which access to justice will be a proud -- provided

:15:19. > :15:24.at an appropriate level with digital technology until the government

:15:25. > :15:29.laser the comprehensive plan. In addition to the plan she is we all

:15:30. > :15:33.to me the plan to extend mobile coverage to many areas because in

:15:34. > :15:40.some of the rural areas where we have closures planned we don't have

:15:41. > :15:44.the system in place. He makes are very valuable point which reinforces

:15:45. > :15:48.the argument I am making. A and a plan that is proven and has been

:15:49. > :15:51.tested the government cannot rely on advances in technology to substitute

:15:52. > :15:59.for the closure of physical facilities. I congratulate her on

:16:00. > :16:04.securing this debate. The whole point of a Magistrates' Court system

:16:05. > :16:09.has been to have local people deciding on local crimes and without

:16:10. > :16:13.a proper plan we could see magistrates fundamentally

:16:14. > :16:18.withdrawing from areas with many communities having none whatsoever.

:16:19. > :16:21.He makes an excellent point which is about the long tradition we have in

:16:22. > :16:27.this country about the link between the justice system and the locality

:16:28. > :16:30.that it serves. I would like to turn to some of the specific concerns

:16:31. > :16:35.that have been raised about the consequences of the closures. The

:16:36. > :16:38.first concern is the straightforward issue of physical access to a court

:16:39. > :16:42.building for those who need to attend court either for the court

:16:43. > :16:44.hearings would instigate an administrative procedure such as

:16:45. > :16:49.applying in person for a stay of eviction. The response from the

:16:50. > :16:53.government to the consultation says that 97% of citizens will still be

:16:54. > :16:58.able to reach the required court within 60 minutes by car. This

:16:59. > :17:02.statement is simply not true. The date on which the government's

:17:03. > :17:08.responses based his travel time between court opens, not the travel

:17:09. > :17:12.time from homes to the courts which will the closest. On the basis of

:17:13. > :17:15.this data it is possible that the residents who currently lives within

:17:16. > :17:20.60 minutes of one court that he may not have to travel a further 60

:17:21. > :17:23.minutes beyond the course to to the nearest court. It is time for the

:17:24. > :17:26.government to undertake and published an analysis of the

:17:27. > :17:30.physical accessibility of courts based on the journey times faced by

:17:31. > :17:35.residents of postcode racers not from quarter court so that the

:17:36. > :17:39.impact of the closures plan can be properly understood and scrutinised.

:17:40. > :17:43.The second problem with the travel time data is that it relies too much

:17:44. > :17:48.on the private car as a mode of transport. Only half of households

:17:49. > :17:51.on low incomes own a car. Many of my constituents who have the attend

:17:52. > :17:56.court in relations to issues such as housing a bit run low incomes and I

:17:57. > :18:02.think the true -- same is true across the country. The response to

:18:03. > :18:06.the consultation does not consider the accessibility to courts by

:18:07. > :18:09.public transport or by bus, which is often the only mode of transport

:18:10. > :18:15.that residents on lower incomes can afford. I have looked at the travel

:18:16. > :18:22.times from part of my constituency from which residents will not have

:18:23. > :18:28.to travel from Lambeth to Wandsworth were some of the services will be

:18:29. > :18:33.provided. Many of my residents will face a journey of at least 60 minute

:18:34. > :18:36.she'd swayed by bus and in the worst-case scenario have four hour

:18:37. > :18:50.round trip. That is in London which has the public transport system in

:18:51. > :18:54.the UK. Journey times mean that some people people will not be able to

:18:55. > :19:00.two travel backwards and forwards to accord in a single day. She makes a

:19:01. > :19:07.very powerful point that will be resident with a lot of the members

:19:08. > :19:11.of villages in my constituency. It says in the library document that

:19:12. > :19:15.the percentage that would be able to reach court by public transport in

:19:16. > :19:20.60 minutes will be 15% in my constituency. This is of great

:19:21. > :19:31.concern to those who have the trauma of having to give evidence in it

:19:32. > :19:33.case of a crime against them. The Law Society has raised serious

:19:34. > :19:39.concerns that longer more expensive journey times will have on the

:19:40. > :19:43.justice system for jurors who are more likely to find justifiable

:19:44. > :19:46.reasons to postpone the service and for the additional cost that Her

:19:47. > :19:52.Majesty is courts and tribunal service will have to pay to

:19:53. > :19:56.compensate jurors. For witnesses, many of whom already take a good

:19:57. > :19:59.deal of persuasion and support in order to attend court and for

:20:00. > :20:01.vulnerable residents who are being taken to court in circumstances

:20:02. > :20:06.where life is already stressful he may find it -- they may find it

:20:07. > :20:10.extremely difficult to make to court and therefore have a fair hearing

:20:11. > :20:23.because they are the person to explain the circumstances. As a

:20:24. > :20:27.magistrate, I can attest to witnesses or sufferers of domestic

:20:28. > :20:31.violence or just people with chaotic lifestyles being completely put off

:20:32. > :20:42.by the extra travel that they will need to access justice. Resolution,

:20:43. > :20:46.which represents 6500 family lawyers and other professionals who are

:20:47. > :20:48.committed to a non-adversarial approach to family law and the

:20:49. > :20:53.resolution of family disputes say that the court closures will have a

:20:54. > :21:00.huge impact on our ability of a family to access justice. They say

:21:01. > :21:06.that the most affected will be the vulnerable. Requiring a victim of

:21:07. > :21:12.domestic abuse to travel further on public transport to apply for an

:21:13. > :21:20.injunction will act as a further disincentive. I would like to

:21:21. > :21:22.highlight three examples from my constituency caseload which

:21:23. > :21:26.illustrate the level of vulnerability of many people who

:21:27. > :21:30.have to access the court system. The first is a man who came to this

:21:31. > :21:35.country as an asylum seeker having been a child soldier in Nigeria. He

:21:36. > :21:38.is doing his utmost to find work and currently has a zero hours

:21:39. > :21:43.contracts. Sometimes his employer has worked for him, sometimes not.

:21:44. > :21:46.This is not within his control. The consequences that he is a

:21:47. > :21:52.fluctuating income which means that intermittently he has apply for J SA

:21:53. > :21:56.and housing benefit. The delays in processing his J SA Lymington

:21:57. > :22:03.sometimes his Housing Benefit is frozen. This causes rent arrears and

:22:04. > :22:07.has been served on occasion. None of this is his fault. He is a man doing

:22:08. > :22:11.everything he can to make the best life in a country he never imagined

:22:12. > :22:18.himself finding himself in. The additional expense and stress to

:22:19. > :22:22.travel a long distance to access court is not something that we

:22:23. > :22:26.should be asking him to bear. Another constituent is recently

:22:27. > :22:29.widowed. Husband was a social housing tenant and in order for her

:22:30. > :22:34.to succeed to the tenancy she needed to provide proof of his death. But

:22:35. > :22:37.there was an administrative mistake with the death certificate which

:22:38. > :22:42.caused a delay which meant that her landlord commenced eviction

:22:43. > :22:49.proceedings. She lives in the furthest flung part of my consistent

:22:50. > :22:55.-- consistency -- constituency in regard to access to court. The third

:22:56. > :23:00.case highlights some of the wider problems with the justice system.

:23:01. > :23:03.The constituent is in his earpiece. He had suffered anti-social

:23:04. > :23:06.behaviour from is upstairs neighbour for many years causing him and his

:23:07. > :23:12.wife great distress and sometimes leading to him is sleeping in his

:23:13. > :23:16.car. His council land or did everything possible to gather

:23:17. > :23:19.evidence and commence eviction proceedings against neighbour. It

:23:20. > :23:22.took months for the case to come to court and when it did the police

:23:23. > :23:27.failed to turn up to give evidence and the case had to be adjourned.

:23:28. > :23:30.This situation would have been compounded even further by a longer

:23:31. > :23:35.journey time or by moving the proceedings to a court which did not

:23:36. > :23:38.have the capacity to absorb additional work. Very often the

:23:39. > :23:42.circumstances which lead to somebody having to attend court involved

:23:43. > :23:46.personal sadness and many people who have to attend court a very

:23:47. > :23:50.vulnerable. Fulfilling the obligation to make a justice system

:23:51. > :23:53.accessible bus involved thinking about the considerable challenges

:23:54. > :23:57.that are most vulnerable residents face and designing a system around

:23:58. > :24:01.these challenges, not around residents who have the most

:24:02. > :24:04.capacity. The closure programme has the potential to have significant

:24:05. > :24:10.hidden costs for the wider public sector and these have not considered

:24:11. > :24:13.or scrutinised at all during the course of the consultation process

:24:14. > :24:17.with the government's response to it. The Law Society is highlighted

:24:18. > :24:21.the additional costs associated with prison and probation staff having to

:24:22. > :24:29.transport offenders longer distances. There may be additional

:24:30. > :24:34.transportation costs for the police. There will be increased costs for

:24:35. > :24:37.councils as social workers and housing officers are forced to

:24:38. > :24:41.travel longer distances and spend more time away from the day-to-day

:24:42. > :24:45.duties in order to provide evidence in court. There are already

:24:46. > :24:50.frustration within the justice system. Many lawyers I have spoken

:24:51. > :24:52.to who work in London pride the experience of using the Central

:24:53. > :24:56.London County Court since it moved to shed premises with the Royal

:24:57. > :24:59.Courts of Justice. They describe accord which is completely

:25:00. > :25:06.overwhelmed with the volume of work, such that is beginning to resemble

:25:07. > :25:10.the Chancery Court in bleak house. The loss of piety and others have

:25:11. > :25:15.raised concerns about the impact of the closure programme on court staff

:25:16. > :25:18.in a context where they are -- where there are already frustrations about

:25:19. > :25:23.administrative problems and delays. These problems would be made worse

:25:24. > :25:28.if the scorcher plumed and workloads transferred to other courts that are

:25:29. > :25:32.already operating at high capacity. Many magistrates forgot the work is

:25:33. > :25:36.a very local form of public service. There is a strong connection between

:25:37. > :25:40.the community they know and their role in ensuring justice for the

:25:41. > :25:44.community. There are serious concerns that having farty records

:25:45. > :25:48.requiring some magistrate should travel long distances and ordered to

:25:49. > :25:52.serve breaks the strong tradition we have in this country of justice

:25:53. > :25:57.system which is rooted in the individual spatial it serves. There

:25:58. > :26:04.is potentially a significant impact on many solicitor schemes. Concerns

:26:05. > :26:06.have been raised to be about the sustainability of many duty

:26:07. > :26:11.solicitor schemes that have already been stretch to the limit by cuts in

:26:12. > :26:16.legal aid. Certainly, the solicitors who work in my local area have said

:26:17. > :26:19.that many of them would be forced to give up duty solicitor work if they

:26:20. > :26:23.have to travel further to attend court, such as the marginal

:26:24. > :26:27.viability of the scheme already. Finally, I want to turn to the

:26:28. > :26:30.detail of the closure proposals and to highlight just a few of the ways

:26:31. > :26:34.in which I believe the closure programme to be flawed. The proposal

:26:35. > :26:39.to close Birmingham youth court would have a very significant impact

:26:40. > :26:44.on young defendants who would then have two appear in an adult court in

:26:45. > :26:49.breach of the government's statutory and international obligations. I

:26:50. > :26:52.wonder how this proposal was ever brought forward and why these issues

:26:53. > :26:59.were not anticipated underdressed. The proposal to close our brand-new

:27:00. > :27:08.fit for purpose court in Rotherham, which contains three different

:27:09. > :27:12.courts at a time and in a time when child protection issues are at the

:27:13. > :27:16.forefront of everybody's mind is quite simply very difficult to

:27:17. > :27:20.comprehend. In this tour, the proposed closure of the court in

:27:21. > :27:24.auroral area with very bad public transport services at a time in

:27:25. > :27:27.which the local population is about to expand significantly due to the

:27:28. > :27:32.designation of it as a garden time by the government is simply

:27:33. > :27:39.short-term missed. In my local area, the closure of Lambeth County Court

:27:40. > :27:41.is problematic. It is leased to the courts and tribunals service with

:27:42. > :27:45.nine years left to run on the lease. As such, there was no large capital

:27:46. > :27:49.sum to be derived from the sale of the site. The lawyer that I have

:27:50. > :27:53.spoken to who use it said that it functions extremely well as a

:27:54. > :27:57.specialist housing court. I appreciate that as a consequence of

:27:58. > :28:00.the representations that I am others made during the consultation

:28:01. > :28:05.process, housing possessions hearings will not my move six miles

:28:06. > :28:09.away but to Camberwell, which is much closer and this is welcome

:28:10. > :28:12.news. There remain concerned about the victims of domestic violence who

:28:13. > :28:16.will still have to travel to Wandsworth, and about the way the

:28:17. > :28:21.move to Camberwell will actually work in practice. There is time

:28:22. > :28:25.within the current lease to make a proper plan for Lambeth, to work out

:28:26. > :28:28.the role that new technology can play in making our justice system

:28:29. > :28:32.more accessible, to work at the physical space that is necessary to

:28:33. > :28:36.accommodate an efficient court and to plan property for the transition.

:28:37. > :28:40.There is no evidence in the closure programme that any detailed

:28:41. > :28:42.feasibility work has been undertaken to explore lower-cost ways of

:28:43. > :28:48.accommodating court services locally.

:28:49. > :28:54.Although search options are mentioned, they should have been

:28:55. > :28:58.explained in detail before the closure programme was finalised. The

:28:59. > :29:03.accessibility of our justice system and the way in which your dreams are

:29:04. > :29:06.most vulnerable residents is a mark of our civilisation. Too many people

:29:07. > :29:12.across the country have raised concerns that the Government's

:29:13. > :29:16.proposed closures will have an unacceptable impact on vulnerable TD

:29:17. > :29:19.-- people, will present additional costs to the other parts of the

:29:20. > :29:24.public sector which have not been accounted for and will make our

:29:25. > :29:27.justice system less accessible. I accept new technology may have a

:29:28. > :29:30.role to play in creating a justice system which has picked the purpose

:29:31. > :29:35.for the 21st-century as well as saving costs but we have no plan for

:29:36. > :29:38.the Government as to how this will be achieved. I am urging the

:29:39. > :29:42.Government to rethink their approach and to come back to the House with a

:29:43. > :29:47.plan which addresses the concerns which have been raised and balances

:29:48. > :29:52.savings is to be made from the fiscal quarter state with investment

:29:53. > :30:01.in technology to mitigate the impact. The question is as on the

:30:02. > :30:08.order paper. The proposals to closed courthouses across the country, they

:30:09. > :30:14.identified the court in Buxton for closure. Is that became apparent,

:30:15. > :30:22.this is the fourth time I have spoken to this -- to address this. I

:30:23. > :30:28.had been comments made about the timings but I have to say from my

:30:29. > :30:35.experience, the Minister is exemplary in his transparency and

:30:36. > :30:39.consideration of individual members. He has met with me on several

:30:40. > :30:44.occasions and we have had a Westminster Hall debate on Buxton

:30:45. > :30:51.and my honourable friend from Burton had a similar one. We have had a

:30:52. > :30:56.fair run at this. I was opposed to the closures in Buxton, particularly

:30:57. > :30:59.as the fact that the alternative was to send everybody to Chesterfield

:31:00. > :31:04.because it was in Derbyshire. For those in the Chamber you want the

:31:05. > :31:10.geography of Derbyshire and the High Peak, clue is in the name. Getting

:31:11. > :31:15.from Buxton to Chesterfield is not easy and I was in the constituency a

:31:16. > :31:20.couple of weeks ago and Buxton had about six or seven inches of snow in

:31:21. > :31:25.a day. Our people would have got to Chesterfield in that situation would

:31:26. > :31:30.have been impossible. I got stuck in Bamford bit isn't as Forest

:31:31. > :31:34.Chesterfield. I was concerned about this and I thought it was wrong and

:31:35. > :31:43.said so at the time. The consultation document itself, I had

:31:44. > :31:47.much of this recounting what has happened. It is important for some

:31:48. > :31:52.context on it. The consultation document on research -- relates to

:31:53. > :31:56.Buxton. It was the worst consultation document I had seen in

:31:57. > :32:01.many a year both as a member of this house and a member of my local

:32:02. > :32:05.council. It was riddled with errors, falsehood and mistakes. There was

:32:06. > :32:08.discussion and I used some phraseology that you shouldn't use

:32:09. > :32:15.as a member of Parliament because I just thought it was so woeful. After

:32:16. > :32:24.discussion, they admitted there were some mistakes in this document but

:32:25. > :32:28.they pursued the same endgame. The decision has been made to close

:32:29. > :32:31.Buxton. I do regret that decision but the decision has been made and I

:32:32. > :32:36.don't think we can revisit that decision here today. However, at the

:32:37. > :32:43.time, with discussions I had come the issue of Chesterfield, I was

:32:44. > :32:48.looking at the compromise and heretics is the art of compromise. I

:32:49. > :32:54.was pleased or reluctant to accept... I cannot the decision but

:32:55. > :32:57.I will accept the decision because following discussions with the

:32:58. > :33:04.minister, the minister did listen to what I said and the points I made

:33:05. > :33:19.regarding communication, sorry, commuting to each -- Chesterfield.

:33:20. > :33:24.The decision was taken to keep Stockport and Stockport is a

:33:25. > :33:31.separate county but it is a lot easier to get to from the High Peak

:33:32. > :33:38.and Macclesfield where they faced with a similar challenge. I am

:33:39. > :33:42.concerned... I give way. Interesting hearing the tale that they on the

:33:43. > :33:47.mall member is saying. I accept what he says but the proposals are put to

:33:48. > :33:51.him, they are dismissing what logical proposals for Durham which

:33:52. > :33:55.would make it easier for my constituents to travel and it has

:33:56. > :34:02.been ignored completely. Whether he has more power over the Minister, I

:34:03. > :34:11.am not sure. I will respond to that without sounding pig-headed. I can't

:34:12. > :34:15.comment why. I don't know the ins and outs of Durham but I have felt

:34:16. > :34:22.that I put forward a coherent argument. To be fair... I am

:34:23. > :34:27.grateful. He is making a passionate speech but I want to put on the

:34:28. > :34:30.record that if people look at the closures and those courts that have

:34:31. > :34:36.been left open or whether a change is made, it has been across the

:34:37. > :34:39.benches and it is not exclusive that they are giving preferential

:34:40. > :34:50.treatment to those on their the debate, she is not from my

:34:51. > :34:56.benches. I listened to her proposals. Proposals were changed

:34:57. > :35:02.and my honourable friend will know Stockport is held by a Labour

:35:03. > :35:11.member. The point I made was not to close Buxton and it has been closed.

:35:12. > :35:15.I didn't get a partial, sorry, complete success. In the response to

:35:16. > :35:21.the consultation, the decision says and I will quote, move the work load

:35:22. > :35:25.to Chesterfield justice Centre and Stockport magistrates and County

:35:26. > :35:30.Courts. I have a concern and that is how much is going to wear. That is

:35:31. > :35:33.something I want to flag up today. I don't want the odd case going to

:35:34. > :35:39.Stockport to placate one awkward member of Parliament. I want to

:35:40. > :35:42.raise the response to the proposals and the consultation. I have a

:35:43. > :35:47.judgment over this because of my views of the way the consultation is

:35:48. > :35:51.done and I now look at the response to the consultation and yet again I

:35:52. > :35:55.just think there is a hidden agenda that the officials are letting the

:35:56. > :36:01.Minister down. This serious flaws in the response, the response document

:36:02. > :36:06.I have here, I will give you an example. It nowhere in this response

:36:07. > :36:10.carries the comments made by High Peak Borough Council. They have 43

:36:11. > :36:18.members from across the political spectrum, all electrodes and they

:36:19. > :36:22.discussed this at council will stop -- all elected. That representation

:36:23. > :36:27.is not referred to anywhere in the official response to the

:36:28. > :36:29.consultation. To me it seems as though the officials didn't like

:36:30. > :36:34.what the council said so they didn't put it in. They have either ignored

:36:35. > :36:40.it or treated it with disdain. In a time when across political parties

:36:41. > :36:43.we are seeking people to stand for public office at councils and

:36:44. > :36:50.councillors go to meetings, they make their opinions well known and

:36:51. > :36:55.then they are ignored. It does increase the lingo, what is the

:36:56. > :36:59.point? I may be cynical but were they not mention is because they

:37:00. > :37:06.didn't fit with what home they wanted. The decision has been made

:37:07. > :37:11.and it will be implemented. The closure of Buxton Court and the

:37:12. > :37:14.official documents is in marked and scheduled to take place as we are

:37:15. > :37:22.speaking today between February and June this year. I am told that

:37:23. > :37:28.because the argument was given that we can't move it out to Stockport

:37:29. > :37:35.because stop 40s in Cheshire, it goes across counties, these

:37:36. > :37:42.discussions we have had. -- because Stockport is in Cheshire. If they

:37:43. > :37:47.were to send out of county, there is some administrative actions that had

:37:48. > :37:52.to take place. I am urging that they take place. I am not standing to be

:37:53. > :38:01.part of the Minister's fan club but he has been fair with me. I am

:38:02. > :38:05.talking about public money. This is why I have said they should keep

:38:06. > :38:09.Buxton open. I am concerned the Minister has been let down by his

:38:10. > :38:15.officials here. They were let down because the consultation was flawed

:38:16. > :38:19.and wrong. He has been let down because what I felt was arrogance

:38:20. > :38:23.and a willingness to accept the mistakes, now we look at the

:38:24. > :38:27.response document and that is highly selective. I feel they are letting

:38:28. > :38:31.him down again. I have doubts of their motivation. The Courts service

:38:32. > :38:38.have been given a decision they don't want and from where I am

:38:39. > :38:42.sitting, I may be cynical, they seem to be implementing the decisions

:38:43. > :38:46.that the Minister has made. While this delay is there, given the

:38:47. > :38:51.courts are due to close imminently, the work has to go to Chesterfield

:38:52. > :38:54.which is what the service wanted. That was their intention and the

:38:55. > :38:59.longer that goes on, the harder it will become in my view to implement

:39:00. > :39:07.the Minister's decision to stand it to Stockport. That is what I am

:39:08. > :39:12.concerned about. It is through his determination, contrary to what has

:39:13. > :39:16.been said, his willingness to listen to honourable members and to listen

:39:17. > :39:23.to me on this occasion to move work to Stockport. I applaud him for it.

:39:24. > :39:26.Not sending everything to Chesterfield but to Stockport, that

:39:27. > :39:33.is what we want. From the outside looking in, it appears to be the

:39:34. > :39:40.officials wanted it their own way. I thank the Minister for being willing

:39:41. > :39:45.to assess alternative potential options. Including talking to my

:39:46. > :39:50.council but in criticising the officials for failure to include,

:39:51. > :39:54.are you not questioning the Minister's ability to oversee the

:39:55. > :39:58.department? Not at all because he has done that making the decisions

:39:59. > :40:01.he has made. The officials want of Buxton close and everything shipped

:40:02. > :40:08.over to Chesterfield. I want to Buxton opened but the compromise

:40:09. > :40:19.from the Chamber and Westminster Hall. It strikes me and I may be

:40:20. > :40:27.wrong, but the officials wanted it a certain way and they didn't get it

:40:28. > :40:32.and buy tardiness, they showing -- they are showing another way of

:40:33. > :40:38.getting it. All I would ask today is that the decision has been made and

:40:39. > :40:43.we have had debates today -- before. It is still a good debate to have

:40:44. > :40:49.and we are the Thursday before the Easter recess and there is a good

:40:50. > :40:53.attendance. I would ask for him to do three things. He will look at

:40:54. > :40:57.this issue with a matter of urgency to see if there is any more

:40:58. > :41:04.administrative work that needs to be done that can ensure that the

:41:05. > :41:12.decision he made to move the work and the vast majority of work, not

:41:13. > :41:16.just an odd case to make me happy, he can make sure if there is any

:41:17. > :41:21.administrative work that it will be done quickly for the peace of mind

:41:22. > :41:24.of my constituents and the magistrates and in the whole of this

:41:25. > :41:30.we need to remember the magistrates who do valuable public service for

:41:31. > :41:33.very little recompense. I know if it did go to Chesterfield we may lose

:41:34. > :41:44.magistrates from the bench. If that has to be going -- done, can we do

:41:45. > :41:49.it? By sending work to Stockport, we have to pay of tension to the work

:41:50. > :41:53.of the officials. I hate to be critical but they seem to be

:41:54. > :42:01.following a different agenda from the one that the Minister wanted and

:42:02. > :42:06.one that other people wanted. If you could give reassurances in his

:42:07. > :42:14.closing remarks, I will be very grateful. Like the member for High

:42:15. > :42:16.Peak, I commend the member for Dulwich and West Norwood that

:42:17. > :42:21.calling this debate. I also have to say I agree with the member for High

:42:22. > :42:25.Peak that this was a flawed consultation and a flawed decision,

:42:26. > :42:30.particularly in relation to the Bridgend Magistrates' Court and law

:42:31. > :42:34.courts which housed a state-of-the-art court and facility

:42:35. > :42:39.and which the public purse had invested hundreds of thousands of

:42:40. > :42:45.pounds in modernisation and renovation will stop all to be just

:42:46. > :42:49.thrown away. Following the closure, the court civil family and tribunal

:42:50. > :42:53.work will go to told Chester and the magistrates work will go to Cardiff

:42:54. > :42:57.and the Vale Court. This local example will destroy the appalling

:42:58. > :43:01.consequences of the Government's irresponsible decision to close 86

:43:02. > :43:04.courts and tribunal 's across England and Wales as well as a total

:43:05. > :43:10.failure to understand the geography of Wales. There was no surprise

:43:11. > :43:16.there as my honourable friend has said in front of me, but

:43:17. > :43:21.realistically in South Wales you have the opportunity of moving north

:43:22. > :43:27.or south to get onto the M4and then you can travel east or west. Until

:43:28. > :43:32.you reach the M4, you have very few chances of moving east or west. The

:43:33. > :43:35.movement of these courts is going to have huge problems in relation to

:43:36. > :43:43.people's capacity to reach these new venues.

:43:44. > :43:50.Would my honourable friend also agree that in measures which have

:43:51. > :44:02.been taken, is that everyone has access to a private car,, they take

:44:03. > :44:07.no account of the time it would take to get to court using public

:44:08. > :44:11.transport. I thank my honourable friend for that intervention, he

:44:12. > :44:16.makes the most valuable point. Yet again this is a government which

:44:17. > :44:20.fails to recognise the needs of the poor and disadvantaged, particularly

:44:21. > :44:23.those who are victims of crime and witnesses to crime and their

:44:24. > :44:28.capacity to access the justice system. By car the journey from

:44:29. > :44:34.Bridgend to Cardiff can take an hour. Parking is a nightmare at many

:44:35. > :44:40.times of the day and is very expensive. Port Talbot Justice

:44:41. > :44:45.Centre is just under 15 miles away, depending where you are in my

:44:46. > :44:50.constituency it takes a minimum of 30 minutes by car. For those people

:44:51. > :44:53.on low income, who disproportionately depend on court

:44:54. > :45:00.and Tribunal services access to the sites are going to be more timely

:45:01. > :45:04.and more expensive. Car ownership in poor communities in Wales is

:45:05. > :45:10.particularly low. Two thirds and I hope the minister is listening to

:45:11. > :45:15.this, two thirds of those of working age benefits do not have access to a

:45:16. > :45:20.car. The majority of people travelling from the agenda to

:45:21. > :45:24.Cardiff or Port Talbot to access services will depend on expensive

:45:25. > :45:31.public transport links. The timetables of which are a nightmare.

:45:32. > :45:35.If you have to be in court by 9am, 10am, you have childcare

:45:36. > :45:40.commitments, caring commitments, you have a disability, or god forbid you

:45:41. > :45:46.miss the bus. Or indeed the bus does not turn up. The best journey from

:45:47. > :45:50.rural areas in my constituency to Cardiff is indirect and can take

:45:51. > :45:54.over two hours if you're trying to travel to a court and that is before

:45:55. > :45:59.you get to the bus station in Cardiff which is some considerable

:46:00. > :46:02.distance from the court. They need to travel such long distances on a

:46:03. > :46:08.regular basis will disrupt the work of my local police service, my

:46:09. > :46:10.probationary rehabilitation and child protection officers and

:46:11. > :46:14.inconvenience many local groups who offer services to those needing help

:46:15. > :46:26.in the court system, including witnesses. I think we ought to be

:46:27. > :46:29.looking for more at protecting witnesses and helping witnesses. It

:46:30. > :46:34.is one thing to say you don't mind inconveniencing someone who has

:46:35. > :46:39.still not been found guilty, or who is attending court because of their

:46:40. > :46:44.need to support the criminal justice service. We have to make sure that

:46:45. > :46:48.it is easy for people to come forward to be witnesses and it does

:46:49. > :46:55.not build an additional burden into their daily lives. It's going to be

:46:56. > :47:05.expensive, burdensome to secure transport for defendants from

:47:06. > :47:09.custody and the brand-new state-of-the-art INAUDIBLE

:47:10. > :47:12.Built in Bridgend. The police will spend hours transporting people up

:47:13. > :47:17.and down the M4 when they could have accesses the local court in

:47:18. > :47:20.Bridgend. Park prison in Bridgend will have to transport prisoners up

:47:21. > :47:28.and down the M4 instead of straight down the ten minute journey into the

:47:29. > :47:31.centre Bridgend. The transport costs are going to be absolutely

:47:32. > :47:37.ridiculous and it's going to transport, the Ministry of Justice

:47:38. > :47:43.is transporting the cost from its own budget to another budget. The

:47:44. > :47:49.integrity of the British justice system is at stake here. It evolved

:47:50. > :47:51.over the centuries and has remained remarkably sensitive to instinctive

:47:52. > :47:57.formulations and priorities of local communities. The close proximity of

:47:58. > :48:04.the magistrate system to people's daily lives is at the root of the

:48:05. > :48:09.lip authority of the system. No attempt seems to have been made to

:48:10. > :48:14.ascertain if magistrates in Bridgend will continue to serve in their

:48:15. > :48:17.posts. When closures go ahead. I have to tell the Minister, local

:48:18. > :48:23.magistrates have contacted me and said they don't think they will be

:48:24. > :48:27.able to carry on. Because of health, because of work commitments and

:48:28. > :48:31.because of family issues. The additional travelling time and the

:48:32. > :48:35.additional commitment in hours of work is going to make it impossible

:48:36. > :48:42.for many of them to continue. I think that is a huge loss and a huge

:48:43. > :48:46.loss to the local communities sense of engagement in the criminal

:48:47. > :48:52.justice system and the civil justice system. The quality of justice as it

:48:53. > :48:55.is administered and implement it in local communities is also threatened

:48:56. > :48:59.by the decision because the additional caseloads of both

:49:00. > :49:02.Bridgend and Caerphilly will push Cardiff court 's capacity to the

:49:03. > :49:08.limit. The closure could lead to a heavy reliance on electronic

:49:09. > :49:12.medication. I know some people see elegant medication as the way

:49:13. > :49:17.forward. Again I have to say they don't live in Wales -- some people

:49:18. > :49:26.see electronic communication as the way forward. Broadband communication

:49:27. > :49:29.is an nightmare. I live on the coast and I have to tell you my escape

:49:30. > :49:37.communication is not good, often throughout the day with 180 degrees

:49:38. > :49:44.of the sea in front of us, broadband communication is not at its best.

:49:45. > :49:47.This technology is untested, unreliable and their use in court

:49:48. > :49:52.challenges the important usable of our justice system, the right to

:49:53. > :50:04.fair trial and the right to face your accusers. Clear integrity

:50:05. > :50:09.shouldn't is integral and there is no substitute for face-to-face

:50:10. > :50:17.dialogue. -- clear communications are integral. The Law Society for

:50:18. > :50:22.England and Wales has registered serious concerns about the use of

:50:23. > :50:25.video link technology in magistrate court trials. Magistrates have also

:50:26. > :50:29.voiced concerns that it would be difficult for a judge to maintain

:50:30. > :50:33.order in the court if defendants and witnesses are not present in person.

:50:34. > :50:38.There are also doubts about whether the broadband connection in Bridgend

:50:39. > :50:45.is of sufficient quality to sustain a video link. I fear that some of my

:50:46. > :50:52.constituents of the cheapest and simplest option will be to plead

:50:53. > :50:55.guilty rather than face the difficulties of navigating the

:50:56. > :51:00.complexities, the local transport and electronic communication systems

:51:01. > :51:03.and to face the disruption in their daily lives and the disruption of

:51:04. > :51:08.their family lives and commitments to actually travel. I feel many

:51:09. > :51:12.people will, when witnessing a crime, say I don't know if I want to

:51:13. > :51:19.come forward as a witness if it means I have the additional time and

:51:20. > :51:25.cost burden as a witness. But courts alone deliver justice. Orbiting

:51:26. > :51:31.courts are networks of organisations which provide integrated probation,

:51:32. > :51:35.rehabilitation and victim support services. Before the trial opens

:51:36. > :51:40.they do the hard work of preparing people who are unfamiliar with the

:51:41. > :51:45.courts system to stand as witnesses or as defendants. After the case is

:51:46. > :51:53.closed they help to translate and implement rulings and to monitor the

:51:54. > :51:57.impact. The key to their success is the local knowledge and the close

:51:58. > :52:01.working relationship they have with other service providers. Removing

:52:02. > :52:05.courts from communities will fragment and weaken these complex

:52:06. > :52:09.and closely knit networks with serious implications for the quality

:52:10. > :52:15.of local justice and the cohesion and safety of local communities. I

:52:16. > :52:19.also have to say I have great concerns about the serious impact on

:52:20. > :52:26.my local solicitors firms. Bridgend law courts and the whole network of

:52:27. > :52:32.chords in Bridgend is often the reason the based in my constituency

:52:33. > :52:37.and I fear many will close, reducing access to legal advice for many

:52:38. > :52:42.people living across my constituency. The town will also

:52:43. > :52:48.lose many high-paid, skilled and well-paid jobs and the courts bring

:52:49. > :52:51.people from the surrounding area into the town. The closure will

:52:52. > :53:02.affect the retail service sector of the local community and contribute

:53:03. > :53:06.to the degree and immigration -- degradation of the town centre. It

:53:07. > :53:10.will destabilise the community and undermine local confidence in the

:53:11. > :53:15.justice system for a generation. The decision reflects the priorities of

:53:16. > :53:19.the Department which is isolated in Westminster, fails to take into

:53:20. > :53:25.account the geographic and social mix of Wales. There is little

:53:26. > :53:30.understanding of local communities and how they work and it will erode

:53:31. > :53:34.public trust in our legal and political institutions. I urge the

:53:35. > :53:38.Minister to reverse this decision in relation to Bridgend. I am sure it

:53:39. > :53:47.is not too late and I hope he has been listening. Thank you. I

:53:48. > :53:51.congratulate the honourable member for securing this debate and we have

:53:52. > :53:56.had powerful speech is already on the matter. I can say I don't rise

:53:57. > :54:00.to raise any constituency point, I am glad to say that the excellent

:54:01. > :54:06.Magistrates' Court we have in Bromley continues in operation and

:54:07. > :54:09.is busy. But I am concerned as chair of the justice select committee

:54:10. > :54:13.about the issue because it's a matter that has been raised in our

:54:14. > :54:22.discussions both in this Parliament and the previous one on number of

:54:23. > :54:27.occasions. It raises its head when we look at other important issues

:54:28. > :54:30.which I will come to. To give burners to the minister who I must

:54:31. > :54:35.say I have always found to be the model of courtesy and openness in

:54:36. > :54:39.his dealings with me and the select committee, there is a balance which

:54:40. > :54:46.has to be struck. There have been court closures throughout most of my

:54:47. > :54:50.life as a practising lawyer and then as a member of Parliament. As a

:54:51. > :54:57.young barrister I cut my teeth going to courts in villages in Essex where

:54:58. > :55:03.you had caught sitting perhaps once a month -- had courts sitting. I

:55:04. > :55:07.cannot say at the end of the day the quality of justice was permanently

:55:08. > :55:12.and wholly undermined by their closures. Let me make this point and

:55:13. > :55:16.then I will come on. The point I will make is you do have to get a

:55:17. > :55:21.sense of balance and I think that is the point the honourable member is

:55:22. > :55:25.about to make and later on will say something I agree with them. I am

:55:26. > :55:29.certain that will be the case but he's quite right, in the last

:55:30. > :55:32.parliament there was a big review of courts and some court closures and

:55:33. > :55:37.the ones in my constituency we were told by the government at that time

:55:38. > :55:41.that they were needed in the community. Nothing has changed. It

:55:42. > :55:44.is just the government attitude which has changed, when it comes to

:55:45. > :55:50.local justice nothing has changed at all. I understand the point being

:55:51. > :55:54.made about particularly rule areas but I must say in fairness that

:55:55. > :55:58.there have been programmes of court closures under Labour governments

:55:59. > :56:02.just as much as under Conservative governments so this is not an issue

:56:03. > :56:06.where any one party can claim advantage or suggest they are more

:56:07. > :56:11.or less committed to the very fair point he makes about access to

:56:12. > :56:14.justice. There is the issue about balancing up what is largely a

:56:15. > :56:18.centrally funded service with local needs and I think that is what we

:56:19. > :56:21.need to deal with and that is the issue which is particularly been

:56:22. > :56:27.raised with us in the Justice select committee. Also there to say that he

:56:28. > :56:32.is quite right when he refers to the comments of Lord Bingham of Cornhill

:56:33. > :56:36.and his book is something that ought to be compulsory reading for pretty

:56:37. > :56:43.much every member of either house here. It is remarkably concise even

:56:44. > :56:47.though it is written by a distinguished lawyer. But it is

:56:48. > :56:52.worth bearing in mind that the common law doctrine of accessibility

:56:53. > :56:55.was drawn up at a time when actually there were far fewer courts and

:56:56. > :57:00.distances between them were in fact much greater and public transport

:57:01. > :57:04.virtually nonexistent and journeys much longer. Everything has to be

:57:05. > :57:06.put into context and is not an absolute, it is getting the balance

:57:07. > :57:12.right number of honourable members are

:57:13. > :57:17.raising. There were caught closure programmes under Labour governments

:57:18. > :57:32.and the most recent set were those part of the argument has been the

:57:33. > :57:36.needs and the pressure on public finances to get maximum value for

:57:37. > :57:41.money which is understandable. It is also understandable there has been a

:57:42. > :57:49.decline in the utilisation of courts because there has been a reduction

:57:50. > :57:56.in crime, something in the order of 43% I am told of utilisation across

:57:57. > :58:03.the Magistrate Court estate. Some of the Magistrate Courts I can remember

:58:04. > :58:07.where in poor condition, old, ill-equipped, did not have the

:58:08. > :58:12.facilities to deal with the separation of witnesses, victims,

:58:13. > :58:20.legal advertisers that we would wish to see. Not all closures are bad and

:58:21. > :58:21.there has to be a process of renewal and sometimes of consolidation. What

:58:22. > :58:33.did concern... I will once. I am sorry to intervene but the

:58:34. > :58:43.point I was making once we have spent hundreds of thousands of

:58:44. > :58:54.pounds in Bridgend on making it making it viable for the future. I

:58:55. > :59:02.will not go into individual cases. What is important is this. In

:59:03. > :59:14.October of 2015 on the back of that 2010/14 closure problem, we had

:59:15. > :59:19.evidence from that. There were the reform programmes undertaken in the

:59:20. > :59:38.first Parliament. We're asked what progress had been made... We asked

:59:39. > :59:49.about what fro Gress -- what progress. It is worse when it

:59:50. > :59:57.happens here but we will allow the gentleman to continue. It is worse

:59:58. > :00:00.anyway and that is the honest truth. There is some important information

:00:01. > :00:04.that we got. We wanted to find out what progress had been made in

:00:05. > :00:10.selling off the courts that had been closed as part of the programme and

:00:11. > :00:17.we were told that at that time of October last year, ten court

:00:18. > :00:20.buildings remains -- remain unsolved. It would be helpful if the

:00:21. > :00:25.Minister can update the House as to what the current position is in

:00:26. > :00:28.relation to those. If courts are to be closed, it is important since one

:00:29. > :00:35.of the prime arguments is the need to make value for money and they

:00:36. > :00:42.should be disposed of in a timely manner. There is no virtue in

:00:43. > :00:45.continuing to expend money on moth malt -- on mothballing unused

:00:46. > :00:54.buildings. I have the Minister will be able to help. There is the point

:00:55. > :00:57.and I agree about this. The issue of physical proximity and journey times

:00:58. > :01:03.is not something that is purely unique to rural areas where we had

:01:04. > :01:09.previous court closures and amalgamation programmes in London

:01:10. > :01:12.under the previous Government. I was making a point to make a journey in

:01:13. > :01:19.peak time from south-east London to Wells Street where family work was

:01:20. > :01:25.centralised was probably going to take an hour and a half on any view.

:01:26. > :01:28.If you are dealing with care cases and family cases, people in a

:01:29. > :01:41.vulnerable state, that was an unfair burden. The issue of longer travel

:01:42. > :01:43.times has been raised with us. In particular in relation to our

:01:44. > :01:51.inquiry which we are undertaking into the role of the magistracy. The

:01:52. > :01:55.point there is this. There is a balance to be struck between

:01:56. > :02:01.efficiency of the system and localness of justice. We recently

:02:02. > :02:07.had evidence from the National bench chairman's Forum. It is the

:02:08. > :02:12.representative body of the chairs of benches. They did express concern

:02:13. > :02:17.about this. There was a representative in North Wales who

:02:18. > :02:25.made the same point that the honourable men but has made about

:02:26. > :02:34.the difficulty of getting mobile coverage in very rural areas. -- --

:02:35. > :02:38.honourable member has made. If you are going to amalgamate courts in

:02:39. > :02:43.that area it is important to get the technology right and in place first

:02:44. > :02:49.so it can be done. The other point that is a matter of concern was

:02:50. > :02:55.raised by magistrates in written evidence. It was that the worry that

:02:56. > :02:59.there would be a concentration of courts in more urban areas in the

:03:00. > :03:08.towns and there will be a temptation for magistrates to be drawn from

:03:09. > :03:11.those urban areas. It could lead to under representation of rural areas

:03:12. > :03:17.on the benches. That is a legitimate point that has been raised with us

:03:18. > :03:25.by magistrates themselves. There is also a point made that we need to

:03:26. > :03:30.bear in mind that larger benches and some benches are going up to 1000

:03:31. > :03:34.magistrates also commonplace much greater burdens upon the chair of

:03:35. > :03:38.the bench and we have to think about what support can be given to those

:03:39. > :03:41.chairing large fences with considerable workloads in the

:03:42. > :03:50.Ministry matters that were not previously envisaged. Important

:03:51. > :03:56.areas it is relevant. From the evidence we heard, the senior

:03:57. > :04:00.judiciary are much more positive about the opportunities that arise

:04:01. > :04:05.from using digital and modern technology. That can be a means of

:04:06. > :04:10.alleviating some of the pressures that arise from court processes. The

:04:11. > :04:14.Lord Chief Justice gave evidence to us about digitisation in the core

:04:15. > :04:18.service on the 23rd of February and he praised the approach that Her

:04:19. > :04:25.Majesty's courts and tribunal's service were building their digital

:04:26. > :04:28.cases to unit by unit rather than non-monolithic single contract. It

:04:29. > :04:33.is right to give praise where that is due but he was alert to the issue

:04:34. > :04:37.of digital exclusion needing to be dealt with as we take this forward.

:04:38. > :04:44.We have heard evidence from some of the senior judiciary on this point.

:04:45. > :04:49.The master, Lord Dyson, was recognising there is value to be had

:04:50. > :04:55.in my tea being used to overcome the access to court issues also made the

:04:56. > :05:02.point that the Government track record is not exactly shiny. The

:05:03. > :05:04.President of the family division was pointing out that the real

:05:05. > :05:11.opportunities for reducing the burden is on a difficult time of

:05:12. > :05:14.their life dealing with the digitised divorce service was also

:05:15. > :05:19.concerned that there should be proper grow -- proper progress. He

:05:20. > :05:27.was disappointed with the progress so far. There were also reservations

:05:28. > :05:29.about the capacity of the department to deliver the modernisation

:05:30. > :05:36.programme. That is the point I wanted to make because I have been

:05:37. > :05:40.concerned that a lot of senior practitioners in the field say we

:05:41. > :05:48.don't have a problem with the modernisation programme, we

:05:49. > :05:52.recognise their rationale for stage rationalisation and a great move to

:05:53. > :05:55.digitalisation and video conferencing and so on but there is

:05:56. > :06:01.a concern as to whether the Ministry of Justice itself or Her Majesty 's

:06:02. > :06:05.Courts and tribunal service actually have the capacity, the technical

:06:06. > :06:13.capacity and professional capacity to deliver on those issues. That

:06:14. > :06:17.concerns me as much as in relation to the digitisation programme. There

:06:18. > :06:22.is in east London a very good family Law centre, part of the family Court

:06:23. > :06:28.we have at Canary Wharf. It is working well and opened in December

:06:29. > :06:34.of 2014. But it was delayed and one of the concerns has become apparent

:06:35. > :06:38.and that is part of that delay was that the estates manager is dealing

:06:39. > :06:44.with this in hats spend the better part of a year pursuing a particular

:06:45. > :06:51.site in the Canary Wharf area which was never realistically available at

:06:52. > :06:55.our acceptable rent or upon acceptable terms. The commercial

:06:56. > :06:59.property operators that they were dealing with were perfectly

:07:00. > :07:03.understandably running rings around them and very often Government

:07:04. > :07:07.departments and agencies do not have the level of direct commercial

:07:08. > :07:13.expertise in tough hard money negotiations that they are going to

:07:14. > :07:16.need to do to deliver this court's rationalisation disposal and renewal

:07:17. > :07:21.programme. I have the Minister will say what can be done about what has

:07:22. > :07:26.been done to strengthen it -- the expertise and many fear it that

:07:27. > :07:31.managerial expertise available to Government. This needn't be an house

:07:32. > :07:36.and there can be circumstances where it is proper to buy enough ice from

:07:37. > :07:39.their legal and property sector to make sure that Government gets the

:07:40. > :07:46.best possible deal and that these changes are made in a timely manner.

:07:47. > :07:52.A final point I was going to raise was there is opportunity recognised

:07:53. > :07:58.by the magistrates and judiciary when they had given evidence to us,

:07:59. > :08:04.to overcome some of the loss of local connection which are

:08:05. > :08:08.legitimate and genuine concerns by making use of satellite courts from

:08:09. > :08:13.the main court to hear cases which can be tried with perhaps less

:08:14. > :08:17.requirement for Security than those that remain at Magistrates' Court.

:08:18. > :08:21.They can be done in a temporary building for a civic centre or other

:08:22. > :08:25.public building closer to where the offence itself has been committed. I

:08:26. > :08:31.can think of circumstances where it would be difficult to make use of

:08:32. > :08:36.the town Hall, Civic Centre, some other building. Intelligent

:08:37. > :08:39.listening which can be done can make sure you don't have those cases

:08:40. > :08:45.which are likely to have custody requirements or where large numbers

:08:46. > :08:49.of witnesses are there. If you have something that is a summary only

:08:50. > :08:54.offence, the witnesses are likely to be local and you then have support

:08:55. > :09:02.to the bench itself and can get magistrates format locality setting

:09:03. > :09:05.as well. We have also suggested to the magistrates that perhaps we

:09:06. > :09:11.should look at some of the learning that they -- there is in the local

:09:12. > :09:18.Government world. Some magistrates are servicing rollable divisions and

:09:19. > :09:23.are not dissimilar to those of district councillors in rural areas.

:09:24. > :09:28.Some local authorities have done more online decision-making and

:09:29. > :09:34.trying to find means of having delegated local area committees and

:09:35. > :09:38.so on. There is experience in other areas that the judicial world can

:09:39. > :09:42.learn from and I would urge the Minister to encourage both his

:09:43. > :09:46.department but also those in the judiciary and magistrates themselves

:09:47. > :09:49.to take that on board. The same can be done for the legal profession

:09:50. > :09:54.also. We have had the same representations as other members

:09:55. > :09:59.have referred to. There is scope for sensible co-working between lawyers

:10:00. > :10:08.to achieve some of those issues. I am grateful for your indulgence and

:10:09. > :10:11.forgiveness. I hope those thoughts that seems to have struck a chord

:10:12. > :10:14.across the board amongst members of the select Committee something the

:10:15. > :10:22.Minister will be able to respond to when he applies to what is a very

:10:23. > :10:25.important debate. Can I begin by saying what a pleasure it is to

:10:26. > :10:34.follow on from such thoughtful speeches from everybody. I would

:10:35. > :10:40.like to congratulate the honourable members the Dulwich and West Norwood

:10:41. > :10:44.for securing this debate. Wakefield Magistrates' Court is one of the 86

:10:45. > :10:51.courts and tribunal hearing centres affected by this latest round of

:10:52. > :10:57.closures. That is nearly one fifth of the total Court estate and it is

:10:58. > :11:00.a cut of 20% in our access to local justice. Wakefield's court is a

:11:01. > :11:04.vital resource that provides access to justice for people in Wakefield

:11:05. > :11:10.and its closure will undermine that access. It is also part of the

:11:11. > :11:16.series of changes to the justice system since 2010 which have perhaps

:11:17. > :11:23.been stop, start and stop they have seen a series of changes in the last

:11:24. > :11:30.month. We have seen from the Justice Secretary bistro there scrapping

:11:31. > :11:35.of... The scrapping of court charges and up to ?1200 on defendants

:11:36. > :11:39.pleading guilty. I welcome the Justice Secretary's latest U-turn to

:11:40. > :11:44.reverse the imposition of the legal aid contracts which would have

:11:45. > :11:48.harmed access to legal aid in my constituency and across the country

:11:49. > :11:54.in January. Only after 99 legal challenges and a judicial review. I

:11:55. > :11:59.want to say a bit more about legal aid later in my remarks. In

:12:00. > :12:02.September this year, I launched a public petition opposing the closure

:12:03. > :12:05.of wakeful court and it has been signed by hundreds of people. The

:12:06. > :12:09.court closure is the latest threat to Wakefield city centre because it

:12:10. > :12:15.is coming alongside the announcement by the Post Office that they are

:12:16. > :12:18.proposing that Wakefield. You should be run as a franchise. That will

:12:19. > :12:27.affect the whole city centre of Wakefield because of that closes and

:12:28. > :12:30.goes into WH Smith or other shopping centres, the shoppers will not be

:12:31. > :12:34.drawn to the high street and it has a huge knock-on effect on the city

:12:35. > :12:41.centre economy as does the fact that we won't have police officers,

:12:42. > :12:45.council offices and lawyers going out in the city centre at lunchtime

:12:46. > :12:52.and buying a delicious damage from one of the many shops which we are

:12:53. > :12:56.proud to have in our city centre. There is cross-party concern about

:12:57. > :13:02.these closures. I think it is important that justice is not just

:13:03. > :13:08.done but seem to be done and is seen to be done locally. I think it will

:13:09. > :13:12.also result in more failed cases as victims and witnesses will have to

:13:13. > :13:19.travel long distance to get to court. It will waste police time

:13:20. > :13:26.because we will have to get to court. The point made about this is

:13:27. > :13:31.passing on cuts. The cuts are outsourced to the police service

:13:32. > :13:35.because it is that I mail that will be spent spending travelling to

:13:36. > :13:41.Wakefield and Leeds accompanying defendants or giving evidence. With

:13:42. > :13:45.the family courts, it will be council officer's time. This is not

:13:46. > :13:53.a cost neutral solution and the whole cost look at the core closure

:13:54. > :13:56.programme might be useful inquiry for the justice committee to look at

:13:57. > :14:03.in terms of what are the cost and cases of this. It is not acceptable

:14:04. > :14:04.that we have a cut in one place that is them absorbed by other parts of

:14:05. > :14:18.the system. Local justice will not be seen to be

:14:19. > :14:28.done as a local media will not cover cases which take place at some

:14:29. > :14:32.distance. A local solicitor told me that the consequences could be

:14:33. > :14:37.catastrophic for some of Wakefield law firms, solicitors will go where

:14:38. > :14:41.the work is, so firms which don't have offices in Leeds have talked

:14:42. > :14:45.about the possibility of moving out of Wakefield, another big cost to

:14:46. > :14:49.our city centre. They cannot afford to be in a city where there is not a

:14:50. > :14:53.court because they cannot afford to pay the expenses for lawyers to

:14:54. > :14:56.travel regularly to Leeds. The government has cut funding for the

:14:57. > :15:04.justice system by ?2.1 billion in the last parliament further ?900

:15:05. > :15:07.million of cuts to come by the end of this Parliament. Despite these

:15:08. > :15:12.cuts Wakefield Magistrates' Court has been performing to a high

:15:13. > :15:15.standard. The government said in its own consultation document that the

:15:16. > :15:20.building was well used and according to the Law Society Wakefield is a

:15:21. > :15:23.busy court operating at a higher capacity than the England and Wales

:15:24. > :15:33.average. For the year to date our conviction rate for cases is 87%

:15:34. > :15:37.against a national target of 85%. It has a very low overall attrition

:15:38. > :15:43.rate of just 10% against the national attrition rate target of

:15:44. > :15:49.15%. This is very important particularly when it comes to

:15:50. > :15:52.protecting one rubble. -- protecting the vulnerable. I met the new

:15:53. > :15:58.district commander of Wakefield police and he was rightly proud of

:15:59. > :16:02.the work they are doing in terms of having a very high conviction rate

:16:03. > :16:06.for domestic violence and that is something which has changed for the

:16:07. > :16:10.better since I was elected as the MP for Wakefield ten years ago. I can

:16:11. > :16:14.remember asking for a specialist domestic violence Court for

:16:15. > :16:19.Wakefield and being told almost with a pat on my hand by one of the court

:16:20. > :16:22.officials that I did not fully understand domestic violence and the

:16:23. > :16:26.trouble was that there was these allegations and then you would find

:16:27. > :16:38.them sitting holding hands outside the court. It was nice to be told

:16:39. > :16:40.what I did not understand by court officials. I left him in no doubt

:16:41. > :16:43.about my understanding and that perhaps he needed to understand a

:16:44. > :16:48.little bit more about domestic violence cases. We have worked hard

:16:49. > :16:52.on the safe at home prospect for victims of the mystic violence, we

:16:53. > :16:58.have a conviction rate of 81% against a national target of 75%.

:16:59. > :17:04.The commander is rightly concerned about what that will mean, we also

:17:05. > :17:11.have a very low average of days from first hearing to trial, 65 days

:17:12. > :17:18.compared to 103 days nationally. This is the second round of court

:17:19. > :17:23.closures in Wakefield since 2010. We had the closure of Pontefract magic

:17:24. > :17:27.its court in 2013 and that work has already transferred, and the staff,

:17:28. > :17:35.have transferred to Wakefield. This closure means all parties will all

:17:36. > :17:39.need to travel into Leeds, significantly increasing travel

:17:40. > :17:42.time. The Minister has said 95% of citizens would still be able to

:17:43. > :17:48.reach the court by car but we have already heard in this debate that

:17:49. > :17:52.the courts deal with the most vulnerable people in our society and

:17:53. > :17:56.the poorest people in our society and according to the Law Society

:17:57. > :18:03.just 47% of Wakefield Magistrate Courts users, 47% of Wakefield court

:18:04. > :18:09.users will have to travel for over an hour in each direction to reach

:18:10. > :18:13.court by public transport. This will reduce access to justice. I am

:18:14. > :18:18.concerned about the impact of those longer, more expensive journey times

:18:19. > :18:24.on victims, witnesses and defendants. And magistrates. Those

:18:25. > :18:29.living in the whole body and set will have difficulty getting to lead

:18:30. > :18:34.by public transport with very sporadic bus services, let alone

:18:35. > :18:39.people who live in the old pit villages where they then have two,

:18:40. > :18:44.they either get directly into Leeds are they have to come into Wakefield

:18:45. > :18:49.by bus, irregular sporadic services which don't often turn up and then

:18:50. > :18:56.change onto a train service and then travel by foot. Travelling by foot

:18:57. > :19:01.puts them at greater risk of bumping into the people they may be in court

:19:02. > :19:06.to appear against and I can tell you, as a victim, that is something

:19:07. > :19:11.which is not a comfortable place to be and something I have personally

:19:12. > :19:18.experienced. Those on low incomes are not eligible to claim back

:19:19. > :19:22.travel expenses and some who are required to attend court may have

:19:23. > :19:27.never been to Leeds before. These are not people who have access to

:19:28. > :19:31.Google maps on their smartphones. These people can get easily lost, we

:19:32. > :19:33.heard the case of the 80-year-old man turning up to appear against his

:19:34. > :19:42.neighbour. I witnessed anti-social behaviour when I was at school gates

:19:43. > :19:47.in Wakefield. I said to the lady that it happens to that I had seen

:19:48. > :19:54.and she reported it to the police and this case against this very

:19:55. > :19:59.aggressive individual came up during the general election campaign. It

:20:00. > :20:04.was scheduled to be heard at 10am so I gave up my morning 's canvassing

:20:05. > :20:10.in the interest of local justice and justice being done. I sat with the

:20:11. > :20:14.complainant and her husband and her neighbour who had turned up to

:20:15. > :20:19.support her, because often people need one or two other people to

:20:20. > :20:24.support them as well. We sat in the victims room the defendant turned up

:20:25. > :20:29.with his solicitor and was then advised to plead guilty. Until you

:20:30. > :20:33.are a victim you don't realise how important it is for the witnesses

:20:34. > :20:39.and victims to turn up because if the victims witnesses do not turn up

:20:40. > :20:43.it does not proceed and the getaway. This was brought home to meet 20

:20:44. > :20:49.years ago when I was a victim of assault but I basically stopped a

:20:50. > :20:53.large rampaging group of girls who had assaulted, were kicking a young

:20:54. > :20:56.woman on a zebra crossing in north London and then assaulted a cheap

:20:57. > :21:00.worker and then assaulted me. It was only when I turned up I realised how

:21:01. > :21:04.important it was that the people who had been victims of assault were in

:21:05. > :21:09.that room that day so that those girls pleaded guilty in that case to

:21:10. > :21:12.the charge of affray. Nobody knows this and how bad things happen to

:21:13. > :21:18.them but these are important things, so if people have to drop their

:21:19. > :21:24.children at school, wait for the bus, get off the bus, get the train

:21:25. > :21:30.into Leeds, arrived into Leeds, walk to the court, they have already not

:21:31. > :21:35.appeared in the case has already failed if it was listed for 10am.

:21:36. > :21:40.This is important for people in Wakefield and I think if this has to

:21:41. > :21:45.go ahead Wakefield cases should be listed as afternoon cases to enable

:21:46. > :21:48.people to attend but the childcare issue particularly around victims of

:21:49. > :21:56.domestic violence cannot be overstated. Young people, victims of

:21:57. > :21:59.domestic abuse, all those who rely on public transport will be affected

:22:00. > :22:03.by this so the government is erecting hurdles for witnesses to

:22:04. > :22:08.overcome and that is not what the role of the justice system should

:22:09. > :22:13.be. Legal professionals in Wakefield have told me how good our local

:22:14. > :22:16.court was at delivering local justice and again we have heard

:22:17. > :22:22.concerns from the Right Honourable member from Bromley about

:22:23. > :22:26.magistrates from the area and from Bridgend who have no local knowledge

:22:27. > :22:31.and understanding, people who don't know life and circumstances in

:22:32. > :22:36.Wakefield and the surrounding villages will lose local decisions

:22:37. > :22:40.on local justice matters. The government likes to talk a good talk

:22:41. > :22:46.on devolving power to communities but every action they take takes

:22:47. > :22:49.power away from local communities. We have already heard some creative

:22:50. > :22:54.examples of court hearings could be heard. I am insistent on the fact

:22:55. > :22:59.that the victim should feel comfortable and protected when they

:23:00. > :23:03.walk into the court but we do have a court chamber in Wakefield Council

:23:04. > :23:11.and we have County Court building as well in Wakefield. We had Bill Nighy

:23:12. > :23:16.filming there, that was an exciting day for the city and certainly for

:23:17. > :23:20.myself, that was a couple of months ago. These are court buildings which

:23:21. > :23:25.could be used for some very specific cases. The Lord Chief Justice

:23:26. > :23:30.reported two weeks ago that the system of justice has become an to

:23:31. > :23:34.most and the Law Society has described access to justice as being

:23:35. > :23:39.on the verge of a crisis. Funding for civil cases has fallen by 62%

:23:40. > :23:43.since civil legal aid was cut and these closures I think can worsen

:23:44. > :23:48.the trend around access to justice. I want to say a word about the legal

:23:49. > :23:51.aid changes, the honourable gentleman, the Right Honourable

:23:52. > :23:56.gentleman, Honourable gentleman, is well aware of the case of hobby and

:23:57. > :24:00.Christie Shepherd from my constituency who died of carbon

:24:01. > :24:11.monoxide poisoning while on holiday in Corfu, the appearance were denied

:24:12. > :24:17.legal aid at first -- the appearance were denied. I am eternally grateful

:24:18. > :24:21.to the Minister who was able to work with us to get that decision

:24:22. > :24:29.overturned after we petition the Prime Minister and secured a

:24:30. > :24:36.meeting. We have similar case of a man who died at his home in February

:24:37. > :24:41.2014 during the flood and his father was left paralysed from the waist

:24:42. > :24:45.down after a cardiac arrest. His parents believe he may have been

:24:46. > :24:48.killed by cyanide gas which had leached out from a former landfill

:24:49. > :24:54.site and come up with the floodwater. They have been told by

:24:55. > :24:57.the legal aid agency that their request for legal aid has been

:24:58. > :25:02.rejected on the ground that the inquest did not concern the public

:25:03. > :25:08.interest. I have discussed this with the honourable member and I do hope

:25:09. > :25:15.that the legal aid agency will review this trial is funding as a

:25:16. > :25:17.matter of utmost urgency and I hope the Minister will once again

:25:18. > :25:22.personally intervene so that justice can be done for that family and they

:25:23. > :25:28.are not left in the position of having to present their own case and

:25:29. > :25:32.examine witnesses, the father from his wheelchair, at that inquest. The

:25:33. > :25:39.Minister has suggested that those two far-away from court could appear

:25:40. > :25:43.via video link but we already have up-to-date technological facilities

:25:44. > :25:48.at Wakefield court, including our own present a court service which is

:25:49. > :25:52.important because we have two prisons, Wakefield prison which

:25:53. > :25:58.houses high risk offenders and Newhall women's prison as well. We

:25:59. > :26:04.had the Chief Executive of the courts and tribunals service at the

:26:05. > :26:11.Public Accounts Committee saying she has negotiated so any buildings

:26:12. > :26:17.which are sold can be reinvested in modernisation but they are yet to

:26:18. > :26:27.dispose of 15 closed courts from its 2010 closure of courts. One of those

:26:28. > :26:35.sites is Pontefract magistrate court which has fallen into rack and ruin

:26:36. > :26:39.in the town centre. I do not want to see Wakefield Magistrates' Court

:26:40. > :26:47.falling into rack and ruin. We have already had one derelict building in

:26:48. > :26:50.Wakefield which the council have passed to compulsory purchase and

:26:51. > :26:55.spend money on so it doesn't fall down. Again this is where the cost

:26:56. > :26:59.of a closure falls on local people although the savings are made

:27:00. > :27:02.nationally. It is local people who picked up the cost in terms of

:27:03. > :27:06.anti-social behaviour, in terms of derelict buildings and making sure

:27:07. > :27:15.they are secure and properly maintained. I think, we have heard

:27:16. > :27:19.from the Secretary of State for Justice, we have had changes on

:27:20. > :27:25.legal aid, prison reform which is welcome, and he has you turned on a

:27:26. > :27:31.range of issues. But we have also had mistakes which cost money. The

:27:32. > :27:36.legal aid contract is an example of how to throw an entire system up in

:27:37. > :27:40.the air, try to intervene in the market, cause huge upset and concern

:27:41. > :27:45.for people and their livelihoods only then to withdraw at the last

:27:46. > :27:49.minute. What have the costs being to local solicitors and law firms

:27:50. > :27:54.across the country in bidding for those contracts, winning them, not

:27:55. > :27:59.winning them, etc. I think the Minister would do well to listen

:28:00. > :28:03.before making another costly and damaging area. Wakefield is a city

:28:04. > :28:09.with great people, great transport connections from north to south but

:28:10. > :28:16.not least a West. I hesitate to interrupt, but I hope the honourable

:28:17. > :28:19.lady will soon be drawing her remarks to a close because there are

:28:20. > :28:27.a significant number of other people who are waiting to speak. Thank you,

:28:28. > :28:31.I will just conclude my remarks by saying that justice is supposed to

:28:32. > :28:34.conflict the guilty and protect the innocent and there is a grave risk

:28:35. > :28:39.with these proposals that they will do the reverse.

:28:40. > :28:47.As there are so many people waiting to speak, I have to impose a time

:28:48. > :28:51.limit of eight minutes. It is a pleasure to follow the honourable

:28:52. > :28:55.member for Wakefield and I congratulate the honourable member

:28:56. > :28:58.for Dulwich and West Norwood Ford securing this debate. I wish to

:28:59. > :29:05.speak up for the principle of local justice and the Bible importance of

:29:06. > :29:08.the courthouse in Stockford and our constituency and Hazel Grove. I

:29:09. > :29:14.welcome this decision made last month to keep Stockport courthouse

:29:15. > :29:17.open. Particularly in wake of my complaint with the ministry and

:29:18. > :29:23.having conversations with the Minister for courts and legal aid. A

:29:24. > :29:27.key principle of our justice system as many honourable members have said

:29:28. > :29:31.today is one that underpins most magistrates and Crown Court and

:29:32. > :29:35.justice should be delivered by peers and give rise to the requirement for

:29:36. > :29:38.local justice to be administered by local people within the local area.

:29:39. > :29:45.It is these principles which have given rise to jurisdictions in local

:29:46. > :29:48.courts which make up the current structure of the service. These

:29:49. > :29:54.principles under the current core system gives rise to the important

:29:55. > :29:56.practical benefits which helped deliver justice effectively. It

:29:57. > :30:05.provides shorter distance to travel from relevant parties in cases

:30:06. > :30:11.including defendants, witnesses. As well as the courts themselves. It

:30:12. > :30:16.gives rise to the smaller badgers having a local identity and social

:30:17. > :30:23.aspect. Finally the distribution of courts contributes to local

:30:24. > :30:31.communities but servers -- serves as catalysts to the local economies.

:30:32. > :30:35.They are the legal profession is that the honourable member mentioned

:30:36. > :30:40.as well. It is out of respect for these principles and the practical

:30:41. > :30:44.benefits I oppose the merger of the local justice area and Greater

:30:45. > :30:48.Manchester -- Manchester which was considered at a similar time to the

:30:49. > :30:52.courthouse. I made the separate case at the ministry that in the event of

:30:53. > :30:59.any changes to the local justice area of Greater Manchester that not

:31:00. > :31:09.all the business of any new merge is conducted. Turning to my local Court

:31:10. > :31:12.I made big casements go to the ministry to urge that Stockport

:31:13. > :31:16.should remain open and attain a significant proportion of its

:31:17. > :31:22.current magistrate and County Court functions. Stockport courthouse 47

:31:23. > :31:29.staff and was running at only 54% capacity in 2014 with the annual

:31:30. > :31:35.running costs of ?870,000. Please allow me to explain why I felt this

:31:36. > :31:39.way. Those impacted by the proposed closure would be the court uses

:31:40. > :31:43.including witnesses in the Magistrates' Court on those involved

:31:44. > :31:47.in smaller claims, bankruptcy and evictions in the County Court. All

:31:48. > :31:51.of these groups or vulnerable people who need the security and

:31:52. > :31:55.convenience of local services at what is already a stressful time for

:31:56. > :31:59.them. The potential closure of the Stockport courthouse could have

:32:00. > :32:03.restricted access to justice and may have ended up with a false economy

:32:04. > :32:11.shifting the operating costs to other areas. I'm glad you mentioned

:32:12. > :32:15.Stockport court is not be closed. I was welcomed by members of our

:32:16. > :32:19.committee because it also houses a very successful problem-solving

:32:20. > :32:22.court which has been recognised by the lord Chief Justice and Lord

:32:23. > :32:27.Chancellor has been an area where we could do more to combine

:32:28. > :32:31.jurisdictions and get a much more effective use of judicial capacity

:32:32. > :32:37.and better outcomes. He raises an important point of the innovative

:32:38. > :32:40.work being carried out in Stockport and I'm grateful to him bringing

:32:41. > :32:47.that to the attention of the House this afternoon. This would leave the

:32:48. > :32:49.town without a court and would mean my constituents would travel to

:32:50. > :32:53.Manchester in their quest for justice. This would not only see

:32:54. > :32:59.them incurring additional expense but negative impacts on vulnerable

:33:00. > :33:03.people and the disabled. It could increase the amount of defendants

:33:04. > :33:06.not turning up the hearings, wasting resources of court and meaning more

:33:07. > :33:14.restaurants would be -- arrest warrants would be issued. More on a

:33:15. > :33:18.economic perspective, if the closure went ahead on its proposed form all

:33:19. > :33:21.cases would be heard in Manchester and there would no longer be a

:33:22. > :33:27.Magistrates' Court between Chesterfield and Manchester. This

:33:28. > :33:32.Chesterfield Stockport case was mentioned earlier. In addition the

:33:33. > :33:37.closing of the Stockport court would utterly impact on the employees but

:33:38. > :33:41.the local businesses in the legal profession. I understand that in a

:33:42. > :33:45.context of wider pressures and public finances that some savings

:33:46. > :33:49.have to be made and I acknowledge the Minister has an on an enviable

:33:50. > :33:52.task with the difficult decisions he is facing. I have something for

:33:53. > :33:59.other local courts in surrounding areas. Many of whom could equally

:34:00. > :34:02.have applied these arguments and with local communities with strong

:34:03. > :34:07.allegiance to the courts. I am sorry to note that the courts in Derry,

:34:08. > :34:13.old and Trafford are earmarked for closure. There is a stronger case.

:34:14. > :34:20.Fred, it is one of the heavily utilised courts in the area. The

:34:21. > :34:24.stated AMs of Her Majesty's courts states it is to reduce surplus

:34:25. > :34:27.capacity by closing those courts that are unused or underused or are

:34:28. > :34:32.simply unsuitable for the services we need to provide in them. During

:34:33. > :34:38.the 2014/15 financial year, Stockport court was utilised by 54%

:34:39. > :34:46.of its capacity and that was the highest occupancy of ever of that in

:34:47. > :34:55.Greater Manchester. Stockport Council was -- Stockport coursed war

:34:56. > :34:58.-- Stockport court was refurbished in 2010. The Government announcement

:34:59. > :35:03.that Stockport court will not be closed is very good news indeed the

:35:04. > :35:07.people of Stockport and surrounding areas. I made the submission to the

:35:08. > :35:10.Department of Justice as part of the consultation process and also

:35:11. > :35:15.attended meetings with my honourable friend along with my neighbouring MP

:35:16. > :35:19.on the honourable member for Stockport who I will pay tribute

:35:20. > :35:25.for, for the amount of work she did as well as the member for Cheadle. I

:35:26. > :35:28.will take this in a cross-party approach and work cooperatively. I

:35:29. > :35:36.am pleased our arguments were listened to by Government was

:35:37. > :35:41.genuine consultation exercise, particularly given the Minister's

:35:42. > :35:45.intervention in that process. In summary, I feel is to port

:35:46. > :35:52.courthouse should remain open and I am pleased we have indicated that.

:35:53. > :35:57.It is important to preserve the long-standing principle is the local

:35:58. > :36:03.justice to give ministers to -- to provide services in the local area.

:36:04. > :36:07.It can continue to contribute to the local community and economy and as

:36:08. > :36:12.it currently provides a relatively high level of occupancy, compared to

:36:13. > :36:17.other courts in Greater Manchester and surrounding districts. The

:36:18. > :36:20.continued operation of the Stockport courthouse can be incorporated into

:36:21. > :36:26.whichever future model of local justice area structure from Greater

:36:27. > :36:31.Manchester that the Ministry of Justice would like to pursue. I ask

:36:32. > :36:35.the Minister to shed further light on that matter. I welcome the fact

:36:36. > :36:39.that as part of the reform package the Government is investing over

:36:40. > :36:44.?700 million of the next four years to update the Court and Tribunal

:36:45. > :36:46.state, installing modern IT systems and making the justice system more

:36:47. > :36:53.efficient and effective for modern users. I have sympathy for other

:36:54. > :36:57.local courts and surrounding areas across the country. I am glad many

:36:58. > :37:05.colleagues have been here today to stand up for the local courts.

:37:06. > :37:07.Perhaps in a week that has been characterised by open attitudes of

:37:08. > :37:13.the Government to show it's listening mode, I wonder if and I

:37:14. > :37:17.would hope that the Minister will be able to hear some of the important

:37:18. > :37:23.pleas of Right Honourable members here this afternoon. I agree with

:37:24. > :37:29.the last remark of the honourable member and I hope the Minister is in

:37:30. > :37:33.listening mode as we pursue it. I wanted to start by congratulating my

:37:34. > :37:36.honourable friend for the way that she has opened this debate and also

:37:37. > :37:46.to congratulate her on securing this. I hope it is an important

:37:47. > :37:50.debate this on February and this is debate this on February and this is

:37:51. > :37:55.the first opportunity we have had to do that. I want to join the tributes

:37:56. > :37:59.to the Minister who is not only civil and decent but he has been a

:38:00. > :38:05.tentative with me and delegations that I have brought down from North

:38:06. > :38:08.Wales. Solicitors and they see a BMW agencies because we are speaking

:38:09. > :38:13.with one voice on this. It is an important issue that goes across the

:38:14. > :38:17.whole local community. I am saying that not just because he's a black

:38:18. > :38:23.belt in martial arts because he genuinely the time to sit down with

:38:24. > :38:28.us and go through the detail. The policy is wrong. The one sized fits

:38:29. > :38:35.all court closure programme is both crude and wrong. It is against the

:38:36. > :38:43.principle of local justice which is the cornerstone of the British

:38:44. > :38:48.justice system. It is also against what the Government is talking about

:38:49. > :38:52.localism. It talks localism but is centralising not just with courts.

:38:53. > :38:55.We have seen in North Wales, we have seen the tax offices move from one

:38:56. > :39:01.place to another to be centralised in Cardiff. You can't talk

:39:02. > :39:04.devolution and deliver centralisation. It is completely

:39:05. > :39:07.wrong and we need to hold the Government to account on that. I

:39:08. > :39:12.want to concentrate on the decision to close both Holyhead and another

:39:13. > :39:20.court and move the business to Caernarfon which is a great distance

:39:21. > :39:27.away. Simply to say it costs. As I indicated to the chair of the

:39:28. > :39:31.justice select Committee, it is a comprehensive review in the last

:39:32. > :39:33.Parliament and I made representations, exactly the same

:39:34. > :39:40.representations I made this time which were upheld them because they

:39:41. > :39:44.were seen by the departments to be right at this times. Nothing has

:39:45. > :39:50.changed. We were in a recession at the time and the areas were deemed

:39:51. > :39:53.to be valuable to serving local justice. I make that point again

:39:54. > :39:59.because I think this is simply about saving costs. Those losing out the

:40:00. > :40:05.local people and the poorest in society in many ways again the

:40:06. > :40:12.Minister wrote to me and as he did to many members and has asked for

:40:13. > :40:17.senior officials from Her Majesty's court and Tribunal is to discuss

:40:18. > :40:20.technical arrangements with me for local alternative provisions. I can

:40:21. > :40:25.tell the Minister that the meeting will take place just after Easter. I

:40:26. > :40:30.will quote a constructive argument to them. I will put in the same

:40:31. > :40:35.argument, the same argument as I put this time because it has brought

:40:36. > :40:41.support and it is right for my area which is a periphery area of Wales.

:40:42. > :40:46.It has seen lots of closures over the principal Government's services

:40:47. > :40:50.and we needed it. It deserves to have these courts functional in

:40:51. > :40:54.those areas. I will argue that because Holyhead is the biggest town

:40:55. > :41:00.in my constituency. It is a periphery town, Major port town, one

:41:01. > :41:07.of the busiest ports in the UK and it is in the response that the

:41:08. > :41:12.Department made to the closure's proposal. It was confirmed that it

:41:13. > :41:15.was too difficult to travel great distances for those caught users who

:41:16. > :41:18.would otherwise have to make those long journeys to attend. On Anglesey

:41:19. > :41:33.they are looking at alternative part-time. I do think the time is

:41:34. > :41:39.good enough. Other civic buildings can be used and public buildings for

:41:40. > :41:47.these hearings. There will be a cost to adapt those. There has been some

:41:48. > :41:54.maintenance over the years that will be wasted. I am looking at certain

:41:55. > :41:58.things in the document about utilisation rates which the chairman

:41:59. > :42:09.of the Select Committee mentioned. There is talk about 20 and 31% which

:42:10. > :42:17.is a low figure but I am unaware of cases -- aware of cases being taken

:42:18. > :42:22.to Caernarfon. There is this stealth moving businesses away from certain

:42:23. > :42:27.courts with a view to closing them down in the future. It has happened

:42:28. > :42:30.to other services in my area in the last three to four years and I

:42:31. > :42:35.accept the husband closures over many years. Again, we had a recent

:42:36. > :42:40.review which was very fundamental and the select committee has looked

:42:41. > :42:45.at it and here we are again. What is next? It will only be a matter of

:42:46. > :42:51.time before they close. I want to come to the issue of the digital

:42:52. > :42:56.connections and the virtual courts which have been talked about. I want

:42:57. > :42:59.to repeat the fact that I am not a Luddite and Winnie to modernise. If

:43:00. > :43:04.things can be done in a proper manner, it should be. To suggest

:43:05. > :43:10.that we will have these virtual courts, that they will replace the

:43:11. > :43:15.court, when the infrastructure is not in place, it is simply silly to

:43:16. > :43:19.be frank and Winnie to get a coherent plan. I have been working

:43:20. > :43:22.with the Department of culture, media and sport to get improved

:43:23. > :43:27.mobile communications. I do believe there are many that don't want masts

:43:28. > :43:31.in their area but we can work with that. There are many Government

:43:32. > :43:38.buildings in those areas that could be cited the communications. We need

:43:39. > :43:41.to work together. They need to look before they make announcements and

:43:42. > :43:49.look to each other to have a coherent plan.

:43:50. > :43:59.I will be meeting with officials to bid for the case for retention of

:44:00. > :44:03.courts in my area. There are issues with border control and the

:44:04. > :44:11.detention cells have moved from Holyhead port took an ardent, a

:44:12. > :44:16.great distance of travel. Please travel is often private provision

:44:17. > :44:20.which is very costly as well. -- police travel. It makes sense, the

:44:21. > :44:23.courts were put there in the first place because they were

:44:24. > :44:27.strategically important and that remains the case today. I hope the

:44:28. > :44:34.Minister is listening, that he will have the go-ahead and flexibility to

:44:35. > :44:38.those officials I am meeting that if no provision, alternative provision

:44:39. > :44:42.is practical for technical or other reasons, that retention of those, as

:44:43. > :44:46.it says in the paper, will remain the case. That we will still have

:44:47. > :44:52.local justice on the periphery areas of north-west Wales because the

:44:53. > :44:55.people of my area deserve that. It is the cornerstone of British

:44:56. > :44:59.justice as I said and we need to retain it and the people of North

:45:00. > :45:07.Wales are speaking with one voice on this. It is a pleasure to follow the

:45:08. > :45:10.honourable member and congratulate the honourable member for Dulwich

:45:11. > :45:19.and West Norwood for securing this debate which was a pleasure to vote

:45:20. > :45:23.to make it happen. It will come as no surprise that I was disappointed

:45:24. > :45:29.with the decision to close Torquay Magistrates' Court for a number of

:45:30. > :45:34.reasons. It is something that has provided local justice for many

:45:35. > :45:38.years and there were concerns raised by the police and many others about

:45:39. > :45:42.the idea, it is not just the idea that was touched upon in the opening

:45:43. > :45:47.speech of people answering charges who now need to go elsewhere but

:45:48. > :45:51.witnesses, victims and all others associated with the cases heard

:45:52. > :45:55.before the local badger trips court. It is also very important that the

:45:56. > :45:59.Magistrates' Court has always been about local people sitting in

:46:00. > :46:03.judgment on local crimes and the matters that might irritate

:46:04. > :46:07.communities rather than let's see at the Crown Court where items can be

:46:08. > :46:11.more decided by the law overall given the offences that rightly we

:46:12. > :46:15.want to have more deterrent to sentences and where a judge would be

:46:16. > :46:18.more looking at the law and making sure precedents were correctly

:46:19. > :46:23.followed in terms of sensing people for the crimes they have committed.

:46:24. > :46:27.I think me what has been slightly concerning, certainly as a member of

:46:28. > :46:31.the Public Accounts Committee when last week we were examining some of

:46:32. > :46:34.the value for money in the criminal justice system was about what

:46:35. > :46:41.long-term plan there actually is for the courts estate. What brings out

:46:42. > :46:46.into focus in my own situation is the money spent over the last few

:46:47. > :46:52.years on Torquay Magistrates' Court. Not least the ?111,000 spent last

:46:53. > :46:55.year installing new windows. I accept the argument people did not

:46:56. > :47:00.wish to prejudge a closure decision but it's quite clear we should have

:47:01. > :47:04.a long-term plan and where a court might be one selected for a closure

:47:05. > :47:12.it is obvious there needs to be some restrictions on the amount of money

:47:13. > :47:16.spent. It's a welcome facility but to see the money spent in the years

:47:17. > :47:21.before something is due to close it is almost a criminal waste of cash.

:47:22. > :47:24.So whilst I welcome that it is a good court good facility I would say

:47:25. > :47:29.there does need to be a long-term asset plan for the courts estate to

:47:30. > :47:34.ensure the investment which will go into the wider network is targeted

:47:35. > :47:38.at those buildings in the best way possible and we don't find ourselves

:47:39. > :47:42.in a year or two debating buildings which had investment as part of this

:47:43. > :47:47.programme being proposed for closure as part of another programme. I

:47:48. > :47:51.think there is a wider discussion around bricks and mortar and

:47:52. > :47:57.buildings, but about what types of cases are heard and where in

:47:58. > :48:05.particular without the Magistrates' Court, what type is of cases can be

:48:06. > :48:07.dealt with in alternative locations. There are many offences we know that

:48:08. > :48:15.are tried at Magistrates' Court were the prospect of card study -- of

:48:16. > :48:21.custody is next to nil so I would wish to see a more long-term plan

:48:22. > :48:24.about working with local authorities who have buildings which are

:48:25. > :48:28.suitable and could be used for hearings were there is no prospect

:48:29. > :48:32.of custody, for example those not paying their TV licence. That would

:48:33. > :48:38.be far more sensible for them not to be making a long journey. Also where

:48:39. > :48:42.there might be an argument about cases which have been irritating to

:48:43. > :48:45.a local community and would be beneficial to be heard in them

:48:46. > :48:50.rather than being shipped away from them. I think there is an ally

:48:51. > :48:56.discussion to be had around the court about what items we do centre

:48:57. > :48:59.court. I remember during my time in charge of finance at a local

:49:00. > :49:03.authority was council tax being one of the few debts which is still

:49:04. > :49:09.enforced through a threat of imprisonment. I accept it is almost

:49:10. > :49:13.an heard of for someone to be sent to prison purely for not paying

:49:14. > :49:20.council tax but as it stands today you still have the whole process of

:49:21. > :49:23.collection of that tax going through a magistrate court with as any other

:49:24. > :49:27.debt somebody might all a local authority apart from business rates

:49:28. > :49:34.will be collected through the County Court system. Add remember us having

:49:35. > :49:37.two teams 1% of person for one debt to the old, and another person

:49:38. > :49:48.pursuing business rates to the Magistrates' Court. It is difficult

:49:49. > :49:53.when people to understand when people defraud the system, it will

:49:54. > :49:57.perhaps encourage the government to perhaps look at reforming the court

:49:58. > :50:02.process and look at what types of cases are ending up, particularly

:50:03. > :50:06.the enforcement of council tax which could be better done in a County

:50:07. > :50:11.Court setting, certainly in Turkey. It would mean people go to Torquay

:50:12. > :50:14.County Court that potentially setting off to a Magistrates' Court

:50:15. > :50:28.to have an argument about a debt they have been unable to pay.

:50:29. > :50:37.I think for me there is a real need to looked at how we have a plan for

:50:38. > :50:41.the long-term future of our court, how we have studied it to ensure

:50:42. > :50:45.that some cases can still be decided locally and a real commitment to

:50:46. > :50:53.doing that, not just an allusion to it but our plan in the areas where

:50:54. > :50:59.courts will not be in place. I also say it is it important about how we

:51:00. > :51:02.have that for the magistrate as well, the news that Torquay

:51:03. > :51:05.Magistrates' Court will disappear has prompted an number of people who

:51:06. > :51:10.have sat on the bench for a long period of time to consider if they

:51:11. > :51:16.would travel to Plymouth to hear a large number of cases. I would also

:51:17. > :51:19.be concerned that the magistrates were being drawn from areas close

:51:20. > :51:25.around where courts survived rather than having, as people spread across

:51:26. > :51:29.the areas, able to reflect the impact of the community is

:51:30. > :51:33.concerned. On a slightly related point about how we call people are

:51:34. > :51:39.per jury service as well. Crown Court cases are not held in Torbay,

:51:40. > :51:43.but reducing the number of potential Crown Court locations we could also

:51:44. > :51:54.be similarly restricting the areas we can sensibly draw jewellers from

:51:55. > :51:58.-- juror 's from. People should have an equal chance of being called up

:51:59. > :52:02.for jury service rather than finding that because they happen to live

:52:03. > :52:07.close to the sole Crown Court that the chances are higher of being

:52:08. > :52:11.called up for jury service. Those living some distance away, because

:52:12. > :52:16.of the practicalities, are not likely to be called at all. Again,

:52:17. > :52:22.that is one of the things I think would be interesting to look at.

:52:23. > :52:25.Fast Mr Deputy Speaker it is disappointing to be standing here

:52:26. > :52:32.reflecting on the closure of Torquay Magistrates' Court, I do hope some

:52:33. > :52:36.of the points will be taken up around more long-term planning to

:52:37. > :52:40.ensure we don't have things like big of money being spent on courts

:52:41. > :52:46.months before the proposed closure and a long-term think over what is

:52:47. > :52:52.going through courts, not just where are those cases are heard. I

:52:53. > :52:59.congratulate the honourable member for Dulwich and West Norwood for

:53:00. > :53:04.securing this debate and I would like to echo the comments made by

:53:05. > :53:10.many of my colleagues. This is a particularly significant issue for

:53:11. > :53:15.Wales and my constituents in what is a largely rural constituency and I

:53:16. > :53:20.am the court cheer for the justice union and family courts

:53:21. > :53:25.parliamentary group. Wales is witnessing a decline in access to

:53:26. > :53:30.justice, 15 courts were closed between 2010 and 2015 and since the

:53:31. > :53:37.2015 collection of further 14 have closed or are we are discussing them

:53:38. > :53:41.today. The closure in my constituency means cases will need

:53:42. > :53:44.to be transferred to Aberystwyth. The issue of inadequate public

:53:45. > :53:52.transport is well-documented but members will understand that the

:53:53. > :53:56.journey is not simply a matter of waiting for the next boss to turn

:53:57. > :54:00.up. Who would not be concerned about the prospect of defendants and

:54:01. > :54:05.witnesses travelling to court together on the same bus possibly

:54:06. > :54:11.for a matter of hours. For many people across Wales it would become

:54:12. > :54:17.impossible to reach any Magistrates' Court for a 9:30am start. Closures

:54:18. > :54:20.will also have severe impact on staff who faced either redundancy

:54:21. > :54:25.are significantly longer journeys to work. Consideration must be given to

:54:26. > :54:31.staff in the circumstances who have caring responsibilities or those who

:54:32. > :54:34.are disabled for who continued on planet could become untenable. The

:54:35. > :54:37.government defends itself by claiming courts are underused but I

:54:38. > :54:47.have been told court cases are being moved in order to skew the figure is

:54:48. > :54:50.unjustified closing some courts. It will effectively result in the cost

:54:51. > :54:53.of providing justice being passed from the state onto the individual

:54:54. > :54:58.engaging with the justice system whether as an offender or a witness

:54:59. > :55:01.or a victim. Such a transfer of burden is a long-running strategy

:55:02. > :55:10.for the UK Government. Most notably and most controversially are at the

:55:11. > :55:21.restrictions only delayed. -- on legal aid.

:55:22. > :55:28.Legal aid was meant to put an end to legal rights being luxuries beyond

:55:29. > :55:32.the reach of ordinary citizens. The UK Government 's restrictions

:55:33. > :55:35.rollback on these important steps towards social justice. The

:55:36. > :55:38.restrictions pass on the cost of Justice to the state to the

:55:39. > :55:45.individual and unfortunately this means many people cannot afford to

:55:46. > :55:49.access justice whether the court is within a geographical reach or not.

:55:50. > :55:54.The closures of courts in rule Wales will also have a profound impact on

:55:55. > :55:58.a persons ability to conduct their business through the medium of

:55:59. > :56:01.Welsh. The consequence of court closures and villages to

:56:02. > :56:05.availability of legal aid including the reduction in awarding legal aid

:56:06. > :56:09.contracts to local solicitors will continue the trend of seeing small

:56:10. > :56:14.independent legal firms becoming unviable and subsequently being

:56:15. > :56:18.forced to relocate close down. In strong Welsh beating parts of Wales

:56:19. > :56:23.it will make it impossible for residents to access legal services,

:56:24. > :56:26.obtain advice or legal counsel or conduct their business to the

:56:27. > :56:30.language of their choice which I would remind the house is the right.

:56:31. > :56:34.The Welsh language should be a consideration when deciding whether

:56:35. > :56:37.or not to close courts and I am pleased the government belatedly

:56:38. > :56:42.agreed to carry out its duty in carrying out an impact assessment

:56:43. > :56:46.but Welsh speakers should not be forced to mount campaigns to make

:56:47. > :56:49.sure of these assessments which the government are legally required to

:56:50. > :56:53.carry out are completed. I read it took so long for the government to

:56:54. > :56:58.do it in this case even if I am glad it has been done. Returning to the

:56:59. > :57:01.issue of court access in rule areas I have a background in teaching

:57:02. > :57:06.through video conferencing, I was the director in charge of teaching

:57:07. > :57:09.through video and we spoke to a number of secondary schools

:57:10. > :57:13.throughout Wales. I therefore have an interest in efforts to increased

:57:14. > :57:19.access to justice through the use of technology. Given the court closures

:57:20. > :57:26.and the problems they will cause in rule parts of Wales allowing

:57:27. > :57:30.healings to take place the Motley may -- take place Motley may be

:57:31. > :57:35.welcome. But I do note the eight conditions set out by the review of

:57:36. > :57:38.efficiency in criminal proceedings in January last year. These

:57:39. > :57:43.conditions were considered prerequisites. The first is obvious

:57:44. > :57:48.but crucial, the equipment used and the audio and visual quality should

:57:49. > :57:54.be of high standard. Given that connectivity infrastructure in my

:57:55. > :57:58.constituency along with vast swathes of rural Wales is even poor than the

:57:59. > :58:02.transport infrastructure I wonder if the Minister would outline what

:58:03. > :58:04.consideration will be given to the quality and liability of that

:58:05. > :58:14.infrastructure in those areas where courts will be closed? I also hope

:58:15. > :58:23.that the recommendation that best practice is identified for hearings

:58:24. > :58:26.conducted via video link. This is to ensure that justice outcomes through

:58:27. > :58:31.communications technology are consistent with justice outcomes in

:58:32. > :58:35.a conventional face-to-face environment. I think this is very

:58:36. > :58:38.important and would be very concerned if there was an

:58:39. > :59:15.inconsistency in results due to the means of fumigation.

:59:16. > :59:26.In the case of the Council, there would be little adaptation and offer

:59:27. > :59:31.facilities such as parking and translation equipment. It is also

:59:32. > :59:35.located nearer to the police station whose sales are used for cult

:59:36. > :59:38.purposes than the present grade two listed court building. I would

:59:39. > :59:42.strongly urge the Minister to consider this alternative as a

:59:43. > :59:48.physical court location rather than leave my constituency which covers

:59:49. > :59:52.843 square miles and includes eight sizeable towns rather than leave

:59:53. > :59:57.that constituency with node court facilities whatsoever. In closing, I

:59:58. > :00:01.will remind the Minister that since 2010 the UK Government has already

:00:02. > :00:08.closed 15 courts across Wales and a further 14 courts are now to close

:00:09. > :00:12.their doors. I urge the Minister to listen to what is being said today

:00:13. > :00:15.and to reconsider the proposal to close these further courts

:00:16. > :00:23.particularly if we can find alternative sites in those areas

:00:24. > :00:27.where public transport goes against victims and witnesses being able to

:00:28. > :00:34.arrive in the alternative without any means whatsoever. I would urge

:00:35. > :00:39.alternative arrangements are made. There was a quote that said the

:00:40. > :00:49.statesman who contributes to put justice out of reach is an accessory

:00:50. > :00:53.after the fact. May I thank the backbench business committee for

:00:54. > :00:57.agreeing to have this debate which is very important. We had a similar

:00:58. > :01:02.debate in September in the ACA to buy the honourable gentleman for

:01:03. > :01:07.Bath and myself. Hartlepool County Court is scheduled for close which

:01:08. > :01:15.is why I wanted to raise the issue and that debate a while ago fell on

:01:16. > :01:20.deaf ears as Hartlepool remains closed -- scheduled for closure. I

:01:21. > :01:23.mentioned in September that I had serious reservations about the

:01:24. > :01:29.proposals. These reservations still remain. These concerns are shared by

:01:30. > :01:33.the Law Society who recommend that Hartlepool magistrates and County

:01:34. > :01:36.Courts remain open. My first concern is there is nothing lacking with

:01:37. > :01:40.regards to the facilities in Hartlepool. Other parts of the

:01:41. > :01:45.country, the Magistrates' Court are in March closure because they fail

:01:46. > :01:50.to comply with the Equality Act 2010 or they are lacking in security

:01:51. > :01:54.issues. Hartlepool has none of this. There are separate waiting

:01:55. > :01:59.facilities for defence witnesses and interview rooms. If the proposed

:02:00. > :02:03.closure does go ahead, the consultation can see that

:02:04. > :02:08.reconfiguration of the hearing space at Teesside Magistrates' Court would

:02:09. > :02:11.be required. I don't know how much of that would cost. That brings me

:02:12. > :02:16.onto an additional point that of the course that will be saved by the

:02:17. > :02:19.proposal to close Hartlepool. I understand this consultation has

:02:20. > :02:24.been driven by a desire to reduce costs and the Minister has said on a

:02:25. > :02:31.number of occasions that the courts cost half year and he wants to write

:02:32. > :02:34.that down. I question whether the closure of Hartlepool Magistrates'

:02:35. > :02:38.Court will save any costs at all. There is a lack of transparency

:02:39. > :02:42.available in respect of this matter. The costs in terms of Hartlepool

:02:43. > :02:47.Magistrates' Court and County Court have costs of around ?345,000 a

:02:48. > :02:51.year. The Minister has never been able to explain how the savings will

:02:52. > :02:55.be made. I would imagine a large proportion of these costs will be

:02:56. > :02:58.about staff expenditure. There are eight members of staff that work at

:02:59. > :03:03.the Ministry 's court and seven full-time members working at

:03:04. > :03:08.Hartlepool County Court. If there is going to be redundancy which is the

:03:09. > :03:12.only way forward, it is difficult -- still difficult to find out why.

:03:13. > :03:19.These are job losses that they can ill afford. Unemployment in

:03:20. > :03:24.Hartlepool increased in February with 2747 claimants. At a time when

:03:25. > :03:28.unemployment in the UK fell in the past year by 11%, the jobless rate

:03:29. > :03:35.in my constituency actually rose in the last 12 months by 11.8%.

:03:36. > :03:39.Hartlepool is the 11th worth -- worst affected constituency for high

:03:40. > :03:44.unemployment. It is over two and a half times the national rate. We

:03:45. > :03:49.cannot afford any more job losses, especially those initiated by the

:03:50. > :03:58.Government. One of the other reservations in terms of the

:03:59. > :04:01.building is how they operate. The Government will be able to realise

:04:02. > :04:06.any value by selling off the building. They have set the

:04:07. > :04:10.Government must capitalise the receipts for reinvestment since

:04:11. > :04:16.courts and tribunal services. That will not be met by closing

:04:17. > :04:21.Hartlepool down. It is a leasehold. The building is owned by Hartlepool

:04:22. > :04:27.Borough Council. I asked the minister before. I will ask him

:04:28. > :04:31.again. How much is it going to cost to break the lease? Is the

:04:32. > :04:35.considering whole of Government efficiencies rather than that silo

:04:36. > :04:37.-based approach on what he had to achieve for his individual ministry?

:04:38. > :04:43.Is he transferring financial pressures away from his own

:04:44. > :04:47.department on to hard-pressed local Government? I mentioned the criteria

:04:48. > :04:50.by which the court will be closed to seem very opaque. I asked a

:04:51. > :04:56.Parliamentary question of the time about what the cost is in England

:04:57. > :05:01.and Wales including Hartlepool and Teesside. That seemed to be a

:05:02. > :05:07.reasonable metric to look at efficiencies across different

:05:08. > :05:12.operating units. The answer I received back was the information is

:05:13. > :05:17.not available centrally and can only be providing a disproportionate

:05:18. > :05:22.cost. If that metric isn't being used, what is? How can relative

:05:23. > :05:27.performance and effectiveness across the estate be evaluated in a

:05:28. > :05:30.consistent manner? I do contends strongly that I don't think the

:05:31. > :05:39.courage of Hartlepool Magistrates' Court will save any money at all. My

:05:40. > :05:43.main concern is that my constituents will be inconvenienced in their

:05:44. > :05:47.access to local justice. The consultation when it came to talking

:05:48. > :05:53.about Hartlepool said and I quote, there are excellent road rail and

:05:54. > :05:58.bus links. The person that wrote that has never been to my part of

:05:59. > :06:02.the world. It is ludicrous to suggest that. Public transport

:06:03. > :06:07.countryside is appalling. Somebody from Hartlepool require to be

:06:08. > :06:10.Teesside Magistrates' Court for an early-morning hearing and without

:06:11. > :06:14.access to a car would struggle to make it. The proportion of

:06:15. > :06:24.Hartlepool residents who have access to a car is 41%. That is more than

:06:25. > :06:28.half of what the UK averages at 81%. Victims will need calm before having

:06:29. > :06:33.the stress of giving evidence and they will be inconvenienced. I asked

:06:34. > :06:38.the minister in September, is this what the Government wants to make

:06:39. > :06:41.justice and access to justice more stressful and inconvenient for

:06:42. > :06:45.innocent victims? Justice is not served by making victims travel

:06:46. > :06:50.longer distances. The consultation concedes that as the present time,

:06:51. > :06:55.99% of those accessing Hartlepool Magistrates' Court can be there by

:06:56. > :07:00.public transport within 60 minutes. After the closure scheduled to take

:07:01. > :07:05.place in January 20 91% will take between one and two hours. This

:07:06. > :07:08.fails the Government's intention of ensuring people will not have to

:07:09. > :07:14.face longer journeys. It is one of the key reasons why the Law Society

:07:15. > :07:17.is opposed to the closures of the courts in Hartlepool. Finally I want

:07:18. > :07:23.to raise one other point in terms of the holistic view of law, order and

:07:24. > :07:31.security with regards to Government policy. Police, staff and offices

:07:32. > :07:42.fell from 628 in March 2010 to 1000 -- fell to... A drop of 30%. Total

:07:43. > :07:49.crime has gone up by 22%. In Hartlepool, the areas of offences

:07:50. > :07:56.have risen sharply. Year-on-year violence without injury has gone up

:07:57. > :08:01.46.7% and nondomestic threat -- theft has gone up and shoplifting by

:08:02. > :08:08.19.5%. Personal robbery in Hartlepool has gone up in the last

:08:09. > :08:12.year by 63.6%. This is going to put enormous strain on the whole

:08:13. > :08:15.judicial system. I would as the minister again to reconsider the

:08:16. > :08:19.proposed closure for Hartlepool Magistrates' Court in keeping with

:08:20. > :08:25.the holistic view of how we have good, local law and order. Police

:08:26. > :08:29.think about the considerations made by me, my constituents and by the

:08:30. > :08:36.Law Society and ensure Hartlepool Magistrates' Court and County Court

:08:37. > :08:42.can remain open. Can I start by thanking my honourable friend for

:08:43. > :08:46.her hard work in securing this important debate today. Halifax is

:08:47. > :08:54.unusual in that we are having to courts closed in my constituency is

:08:55. > :08:57.part of these changes. They are currently in two different buildings

:08:58. > :09:03.and will be closed on the majority of the workload transfer to

:09:04. > :09:15.Bradford. And one who has seen the recent BBC series Happy Valley will

:09:16. > :09:20.see there are many criminals taking up our time. I am pleased and

:09:21. > :09:29.relieved to inform honourable members that of thoroughly gripping

:09:30. > :09:32.television, is not an accurate portrayal of Calderdale. We were

:09:33. > :09:37.prepared to work with the Government to see one of our courts closed. We

:09:38. > :09:40.recognise that efficiency savings could be made and in a move

:09:41. > :09:44.predominantly led by the local magistrates bench and I would like

:09:45. > :09:48.to thank them for their detailed work and analysis on the proposals,

:09:49. > :09:51.we campaign for merging of the courts and in a way that will

:09:52. > :09:56.deliver a cost saving to the Government but access to local

:09:57. > :09:58.justice would have been maintained. However the announcement last month

:09:59. > :10:02.delivered in a written statement as identified by an above my colleagues

:10:03. > :10:07.on the last day of the recess, both courts were closed and the

:10:08. > :10:11.Government's ambition of the savings would not accommodate this proposal.

:10:12. > :10:14.Fighting injustice is largely what motivates me to do this job and I

:10:15. > :10:18.would argue that British values are standing in the world and are

:10:19. > :10:21.entwined with our fair and accessible justice system which has

:10:22. > :10:24.paved the way for so many others around the world. We never know when

:10:25. > :10:28.we might be a victim of crime or witness a crime and live in the hope

:10:29. > :10:33.that we never have a family broke down so serious that we require

:10:34. > :10:36.guidance from the family courts. The two cords eye patch play an

:10:37. > :10:40.essential role not only in writing ones but resolvable manners of

:10:41. > :10:43.sensitive disputes. The arguments about access to justice and the

:10:44. > :10:46.merits of this have been well rehearsed over the course of this

:10:47. > :10:50.consultation and throughout this debate and will focus on my

:10:51. > :10:55.challenges to the Government which I had the Minister will recognise in

:10:56. > :10:58.his winding up. The closure of 86 courts and tribunals have been

:10:59. > :11:03.packaged not as closures but as a means of facilitating a justice

:11:04. > :11:07.revolution driven by technology that will make justice more accessible

:11:08. > :11:11.than ever before. The Government has committed to spend 700 million over

:11:12. > :11:15.five years to modernise and digitise the court. However a written

:11:16. > :11:20.question to the Minster tailored on the 7th of December and answered on

:11:21. > :11:25.the 29th of February revealed that 1.35 million was spent on delivering

:11:26. > :11:29.the digitalisation programme in court which has subsequently been

:11:30. > :11:31.announced the closure. Whilst the responsibility of the Minister

:11:32. > :11:36.outlined that the vast majority of this expenditure was in renewable

:11:37. > :11:40.hardware assets that could be relocated, representatives from the

:11:41. > :11:43.courts and Halifax tell me that thousands has been wasted and costs

:11:44. > :11:48.associated with the installation and custom in buildings due to be

:11:49. > :11:52.closed. I will be grateful to know if the 700 million figure quoted is

:11:53. > :11:55.a new fund that will mitigate the access gap created by the court

:11:56. > :11:59.closures orders this figure include monies already spent as part of the

:12:00. > :12:03.digitalisation programme in court that we now know will be closed? But

:12:04. > :12:07.that this will mind that the Minister and to echo the sentiments

:12:08. > :12:11.expressed, I'm grateful for the opportunity to meet with him in

:12:12. > :12:16.person to present the case on merging the courts. He's a bully met

:12:17. > :12:19.with representatives from the magistrate's bench Calderdale. It

:12:20. > :12:25.was clear to me what services the Government will provide in the

:12:26. > :12:30.roll-out of this revolution and what the response and says are to local

:12:31. > :12:34.authorities and law form is bridging the access gap. Local authorities

:12:35. > :12:37.are cash-strapped and especially in Calderdale were the Boxing Day

:12:38. > :12:42.floods combined with other pressures have placed an unprecedented burden

:12:43. > :12:45.on the budget and so it will be concerned if they are expecting the

:12:46. > :12:48.local governments to part finance these changes that might be

:12:49. > :12:51.required. I will be even more concerned if the Government was

:12:52. > :12:55.expecting the private sector to step in and into dos technology required

:12:56. > :12:58.to look at the closure of the courts in a way that will introduce a

:12:59. > :13:04.postcode lottery to access injustice. We have heard from other

:13:05. > :13:07.colleagues around mobile coverage and broadband cover which will

:13:08. > :13:11.contribute to this postcode lottery. I'm grateful of the Minister could

:13:12. > :13:15.clarify what role he anticipates local authorities private sector to

:13:16. > :13:18.play in the digitalisation process. I also want to outline the impact

:13:19. > :13:24.that the closures will have on the local economy as identified by other

:13:25. > :13:28.members. The two cords and Halifax are located at the top end of the

:13:29. > :13:34.town centre and surrounded by law firms in what could be described as

:13:35. > :13:37.legal quota of Halifax. Like in Wakefield we have a Post Office of

:13:38. > :13:41.the closure in that same part of town and stop back in October I sent

:13:42. > :13:45.a letter to the Secretary of State signed by 13 representatives of law

:13:46. > :13:51.firms who are situated with their close proximity to the court. Those

:13:52. > :13:55.law firms employ highly educated professionals and pay good wages in

:13:56. > :14:00.my constituency and are considering their futures in Halifax. Several

:14:01. > :14:03.are considering following the workload. One the would-be clients

:14:04. > :14:10.and Halifax will not be enough to keep all of those jobs here? There's

:14:11. > :14:15.not as much work for lawyers in Halifax as Happy Valley will

:14:16. > :14:18.suggest. There is the potential for surrounding offices to be empty and

:14:19. > :14:21.it will not be healthy for that area of the town centre and place a

:14:22. > :14:27.burden on the local authority in terms of regeneration.

:14:28. > :14:33.Ultimately I am worried about those who regularly attend court, far from

:14:34. > :14:40.exclusively being repeat offenders, staff from social housing provisos,

:14:41. > :14:43.represent those from local authorities, police officers and

:14:44. > :14:46.youth offending services are just some of the predominantly public

:14:47. > :14:51.services and charity organisations who stand to be inconvenienced by

:14:52. > :14:57.these closures. Let's be clear when I see inconvenienced I mean

:14:58. > :15:02.extended, more costly journeys, extended periods out of office,

:15:03. > :15:06.inconvenience is a cost and when we are dealing with public services it

:15:07. > :15:11.is a cost of ultimately picked up by the taxpayer. In conclusion, I am

:15:12. > :15:14.looking for assurances from the Minister that the Justice revolution

:15:15. > :15:17.is real and deliverable in the appropriate time frame, that the

:15:18. > :15:21.funding is they are and her clarity of what wastage there has already

:15:22. > :15:26.been in delivering the digitalisation programme. I want to

:15:27. > :15:33.know considerations will be made to assist local authorities, manage the

:15:34. > :15:35.closure of chords and any impact this would have on town centres and

:15:36. > :15:38.the businesses which rely on their proximity to the courts. I know that

:15:39. > :15:40.the Department for justice is genuinely deliver a cost saving to

:15:41. > :15:44.the taxpayer with these closures and not just a saving to the department.

:15:45. > :15:47.That they haven't just passed on some of the cost to local

:15:48. > :15:52.authorities, some to the Home Office, some to the social housing

:15:53. > :15:57.providers, some to charities and that their ambition for savings has

:15:58. > :16:06.not compromised what is sensible and practical in our world-renowned

:16:07. > :16:11.justice system. Can I thank the honourable member for securing this

:16:12. > :16:15.debate and opening it so skilfully and eloquently. We share concern

:16:16. > :16:20.about specific court, Lambeth County Court which covers many of our

:16:21. > :16:23.constituents. The member for Bromley and Chislehurst was talking about

:16:24. > :16:26.how busy the court was in Bromley and George are busy he was by

:16:27. > :16:31.receiving a call in here but the same is true of Lambeth court. When

:16:32. > :16:37.I appeared at the court as a witness to speak for leaseholders against

:16:38. > :16:42.Southwark Council, that morning alone there was something like 22

:16:43. > :16:46.individual cases involving residences and the council alone.

:16:47. > :16:50.It's an incredibly busy court which is why local legal professionals

:16:51. > :16:55.approached me and other members concerning the governance assessment

:16:56. > :16:59.of how the court was being used. The concerns covered the time the

:17:00. > :17:04.assessment took place and the consideration of preparation for

:17:05. > :17:07.cases. When this was discussed in the Westminster hall debate these

:17:08. > :17:11.issues were not answered fully and it would be useful if the Minister

:17:12. > :17:14.can confirm whether alternative facilities have the capacity to

:17:15. > :17:20.provide the preparation time and space needed for cases and it's

:17:21. > :17:25.deeply unfortunate I think that in a debate about justice and the

:17:26. > :17:29.government has not provided the evidence, sufficient evidence base

:17:30. > :17:35.to justify its course of action. One issue I don't think has yet been

:17:36. > :17:37.aired today is around law students, London South bank University

:17:38. > :17:42.approached me to ask if the government is even considering the

:17:43. > :17:46.impact on law students and there needs to incur additional costs and

:17:47. > :17:51.travel further to attend cases. I am sorry, I thought someone was asking

:17:52. > :17:54.me to give way. It'd be interesting if the Minister could provide an

:17:55. > :17:59.indication if that assessment will be undertaken. The issue of travel

:18:00. > :18:05.has been raised many times and the government figure about of people

:18:06. > :18:12.being able to get to a different court within an hour has been

:18:13. > :18:16.significantly challenged. That figure is not from home and it would

:18:17. > :18:19.be much more useful if the government could provide assessment

:18:20. > :18:24.for average journey times from home to court and I hope the Minister

:18:25. > :18:29.will commit to that today. That 97% figure is also undermined in

:18:30. > :18:34.communities like my own where only 50% of households own a car and

:18:35. > :18:38.there is a specific policy of controlled parking zones which

:18:39. > :18:43.affects many residents in my constituency who are either unable

:18:44. > :18:47.or have very limited access to car ownership. In looking at this issue

:18:48. > :18:53.on the half of individual consistence, Ireland that journey

:18:54. > :19:01.times, it would take four hours for some constituents to get to really

:19:02. > :19:08.need to be, including six different bus journeys. I hope we have new in

:19:09. > :19:12.May who will freeze travel fears and introduce different tickets but

:19:13. > :19:19.there are still higher costs for my constituents. This will affect court

:19:20. > :19:23.attendance and could affect the number of council cases and could

:19:24. > :19:27.affect the number of appeals and we have not seen a full assessment of

:19:28. > :19:31.those issues. Nor have we seen as has been mentioned today a full

:19:32. > :19:37.assessment of the potential knock-on cost to the police who are

:19:38. > :19:40.transporting witnesses further. I believe it was the Law Society who

:19:41. > :19:49.raised the case about juror is claiming higher cost for road car

:19:50. > :19:54.use and public transport. There are additional costs to councils we have

:19:55. > :19:59.heard about today, both for housing officers, social services officers

:20:00. > :20:02.and also, instead of having the assessments undertaken by the

:20:03. > :20:07.Department we have had huge assumptions being made about council

:20:08. > :20:09.'s willingness and PlayStation willingness to make space available

:20:10. > :20:18.to provide video link facilities the ministers has mentioned. Where is

:20:19. > :20:22.the evidence to show that will be made and to show that the equipment

:20:23. > :20:27.will be available and usable. We have had honourable friends making

:20:28. > :20:31.the point about rural access to broadband services but that is

:20:32. > :20:33.equally relevant to rather hide where BT have not provided the

:20:34. > :20:47.capacity to meet local demand. Without the capacity to deliver the

:20:48. > :20:51.justice we know that is needed it seems the Ministry of Justice is

:20:52. > :20:57.rushing into these proposals and is passing the buck to other parts of

:20:58. > :21:00.the public sector and to individuals. Individuals who have

:21:01. > :21:05.experienced crime or misfortune and are now being served another layer

:21:06. > :21:11.of injustice. In conclusion I am not opposed to modernisation but without

:21:12. > :21:16.those commitments it is a risky agenda and I hope, I believe it is

:21:17. > :21:25.vital the government provides those assessments before it pushes ahead.

:21:26. > :21:30.Can I begin by congratulating my right honourable friend for securing

:21:31. > :21:34.this debate. And can I say I think the general tone of this debate has

:21:35. > :21:39.been one that nobody is opposed to change and can I start by saying

:21:40. > :21:45.that is where I start from. The justice system needs to change like

:21:46. > :21:49.any other public service. But as my honourable friend for Wakefield said

:21:50. > :21:57.it is the root cause of this, whether we like it or not, is to

:21:58. > :22:01.save money. The agenda being portrayed by the Chancellor of the

:22:02. > :22:08.Exchequer of small state conservatism that he longs for. That

:22:09. > :22:16.has made the system not only threw up some very peculiar examples of

:22:17. > :22:20.injustice but also the fact of the matter is the ludicrous situations

:22:21. > :22:23.where for example the member for Torbay raised where you had a

:22:24. > :22:31.Magistrates' Court were substantial investment was made a year or so ago

:22:32. > :22:39.on the know to be written off. It was said that the consultation had

:22:40. > :22:43.been flawed and I have two agree on that. Because clearly the assumption

:22:44. > :22:50.made in this was that these courts were going to close and that people

:22:51. > :22:57.could travel to the courts which would remain open. What didn't, what

:22:58. > :23:02.wasn't taken into consideration was those people who don't have access

:23:03. > :23:10.to cars. In the consultation in the north-east for example in my

:23:11. > :23:13.constituency, people use, they Euston Magistrates' Court in

:23:14. > :23:16.concert. We are told that in the consultation that if they wear to

:23:17. > :23:22.have to travel where they are going to have two now they could go by

:23:23. > :23:28.train. This would be a security as root seeing as there is no train

:23:29. > :23:32.station in Peterlee for example. If you did it by public transport to

:23:33. > :23:37.get the four 9:30am you would have two set off at something like 7am

:23:38. > :23:42.and that is dependent on public transport being available.

:23:43. > :23:47.Completely forgetting and not recognising the rural nature of my

:23:48. > :23:54.and my colleague's will constituency. I think that's been

:23:55. > :24:00.the main floor. -- rural constituency -- main floor. I think

:24:01. > :24:05.the Minister is committed to change although he does have this sword

:24:06. > :24:10.hanging over his head in terms of trying to find the costs. But unlike

:24:11. > :24:16.the honourable member I made representations about proposals for

:24:17. > :24:20.North Durham, my constituents will have to travel to Peterlee

:24:21. > :24:24.Magistrates' Court, again something which will take over two hours on

:24:25. > :24:31.public transport if it is possible to get there on time. If my

:24:32. > :24:37.honourable member for West Durham will find it even more difficult. I

:24:38. > :24:44.suggested to him a proposal for them to travel to Newcastle or at

:24:45. > :24:50.Gateshead would be more, would make more sense, it is a lot quicker to

:24:51. > :24:55.get from my constituency to Gateshead or Newcastle Magistrates'

:24:56. > :25:00.Court. I also told by the local head of the CPS that there is spare

:25:01. > :25:04.capacity in those two courts. So I wrote on the 20th of February and I

:25:05. > :25:09.was disappointed to get a letter this morning which said that

:25:10. > :25:14.proposal was not possible and that my constituents are going to have to

:25:15. > :25:18.travel to Peterlee. It makes no sense whatsoever when you can get

:25:19. > :25:26.from my constituency to Newcastle in ten minutes on the train as opposed

:25:27. > :25:31.to two hours to Peterlee. I would asked to again look at those

:25:32. > :25:35.proposals. I accepted this problem that people have, that we are going

:25:36. > :25:40.to have to cross county boundaries, but it will make it a lot easier for

:25:41. > :25:44.many of my constituents to do that. There is a fundamental problem with

:25:45. > :25:48.the proposals being put forward and the cost driven nature of them. It

:25:49. > :25:53.has been raised by a number of members today and it is a serious

:25:54. > :26:00.one for the magistrates service and those dedicated individuals who give

:26:01. > :26:02.their time to serve as magistrates. That is access to local justice,

:26:03. > :26:10.justice is supposed to be dispensed locally and these proposals make

:26:11. > :26:15.that not the case in future. I am not opposed to new technology, I

:26:16. > :26:20.have actually spent a lot of time in court recently. The reason being I

:26:21. > :26:23.have been doing a fellowship with the parliamentary trust and I have

:26:24. > :26:27.to say that speaking to the professionals that I have over my

:26:28. > :26:32.visits is that they are not opposed to change but what they keep telling

:26:33. > :26:36.me is that there is a shortage of cash in the system. So if we are

:26:37. > :26:42.going to get to the situation which I think generally the minister wants

:26:43. > :26:45.to achieve in terms of local video conferencing, there will have to be

:26:46. > :26:48.some upfront money put into the system to do it. Otherwise what we

:26:49. > :26:55.will cuts have been made, we keep the

:26:56. > :27:07.courts we have got and that'll be it. I think that'll be a mistake

:27:08. > :27:11.because the dispensing of local justice, there are things I think

:27:12. > :27:15.which need to be looked at, what goes to Magistrates' Court if it is

:27:16. > :27:20.quite simply non-violent things which people will not be sentenced

:27:21. > :27:24.to prison for, I think they can be done in other settings but the cash

:27:25. > :27:28.has to be there. My experience in the last few weeks in visiting the

:27:29. > :27:35.Court service throughout this country as part of the trust is that

:27:36. > :27:40.there is not the actual cash upfront to do what I think would make sense,

:27:41. > :27:45.not only to support the professionals but more importantly

:27:46. > :27:48.at the end of the day support our constituents who not only want

:27:49. > :27:55.access to justice if they are bound before a court but I think again as

:27:56. > :28:00.others have said, and it is sometimes forgotten, the role of the

:28:01. > :28:03.victim. That they are seeing that justice is being done and if

:28:04. > :28:08.obstacles are put in their place such as access to travel to

:28:09. > :28:14.Magistrates' Court that will be a problem for them. I would ask the

:28:15. > :28:19.Minister to take a step back. Certainly in terms of giving some

:28:20. > :28:22.commitments because I would like to see a timetable, if he's going to

:28:23. > :28:26.implement these other proposals which I think he generally wants to

:28:27. > :28:31.do, he has to set out how it will happen. And can I ask him to look

:28:32. > :28:35.again at proposals for North Durham because it makes no sense

:28:36. > :28:39.whatsoever, people being able to drive ten minutes to Newcastle to

:28:40. > :28:44.access justice or two hours to Peterlee and again it comes from

:28:45. > :28:48.that point. The people who drew up this consultation and never looked

:28:49. > :28:53.at local geography and again assumed everyone had access to a car. In my

:28:54. > :29:01.rule constituency people don't have access to a car, public transport is

:29:02. > :29:04.intermittent and if that put an obstacle in the way of them getting

:29:05. > :29:11.justice I have to see any modern society like ours that is a scandal.

:29:12. > :29:25.Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. May I thank the right honourable member

:29:26. > :29:32.for bringing this important matter before the House? My honourable

:29:33. > :29:35.friend spoke passionately about the closure of the Magistrates' Courts

:29:36. > :29:41.and the civil courts after thousands of pounds had been spent. My

:29:42. > :29:47.honourable friend, the member for Wakefield, told the house about the

:29:48. > :29:50.U-turns on many policies including the scrapping of two tier contracts

:29:51. > :29:56.costing the Ministry of Justice hundreds of thousands. The

:29:57. > :30:01.honourable member told the house the minister has a black belt in martial

:30:02. > :30:10.arts. I am a fourth dan black belt in judo but that is another story

:30:11. > :30:14.for another day! My honourable friend, the member for Hartlepool,

:30:15. > :30:17.told about the very good facilities in the Magistrates' Courts and the

:30:18. > :30:21.closure would not save money. My honourable friend, the member for

:30:22. > :30:26.Halifax, told about the massive impact on her constituents. My

:30:27. > :30:30.honourable friend, the member for Durham, mentioned that the

:30:31. > :30:37.consultation said travel by train. There is no train station in

:30:38. > :30:40.Peterlee or consulate. The honourable member for Bermondsey and

:30:41. > :30:45.Southwark raised an issue that had not been raised before, the impact

:30:46. > :30:49.of closures on law students. From the other side of the honourable

:30:50. > :30:54.member from High Peak who spoke about the closures in his areas. The

:30:55. > :30:57.chair of the Justice select committee, the honourable mother for

:30:58. > :31:02.Bromley and Chislehurst brought his vast experience to the debate and

:31:03. > :31:08.his mobile phone made an intervention at a crucial time, I

:31:09. > :31:15.thought. And the honourable member for Torbay was disappointed that the

:31:16. > :31:19.closure of his local Magistrates' Courts had taken place and we need a

:31:20. > :31:26.long-term plan. The honourable member for Hazel Grove and his

:31:27. > :31:32.campaign to keep Stockport open and the many interventions. They have

:31:33. > :31:37.all set out eloquently the issues at State of vital importance to access

:31:38. > :31:41.to local justice. We do recognise that savings have been made in these

:31:42. > :31:45.difficult and economic times. We have only just heard from the

:31:46. > :31:48.transfer how he has failed to meet his own economic targets and

:31:49. > :31:52.therefore further savings need to be found. We disagree profoundly

:31:53. > :31:57.however as to how these savings should and could be made. We'd be

:31:58. > :32:02.mentally argued that across-the-board, cuts to vital and

:32:03. > :32:10.local services are unjust. -- we vehemently argued. If not

:32:11. > :32:14.implemented fairly, this would increasingly create a two-tiered

:32:15. > :32:19.justice system and hamper access to justice. Particularly for the most

:32:20. > :32:24.vulnerable in our society. In the first instance, the basis for the

:32:25. > :32:29.current proposals were based on a flawed consultation process. That

:32:30. > :32:32.gets flawed results. Indeed, the minister apologised for these many

:32:33. > :32:39.areas. It does call into question the basis for the listed 86 courts

:32:40. > :32:43.that are being considered for closure. The announcement on these

:32:44. > :32:49.potential closures was made on the last day before the February recess,

:32:50. > :32:55.making this debate all the more important in order to ensure proper

:32:56. > :32:59.Parliamentary scrutiny. One of the criteria for the consultation was

:33:00. > :33:04.utilisation. On the face of it hit seems a reasonable criteria. We must

:33:05. > :33:10.also bear in mind that fewer hearings are taking place because of

:33:11. > :33:14.broader cuts in the sector. Cuts to legal aid means fewer people have

:33:15. > :33:19.records to justice. That is not the right result. Due to a shortage of

:33:20. > :33:25.staff and judges, since 2010, the courts and tribunals service has

:33:26. > :33:32.been cut by 5000 staff and is set to lose a further 5000 to 6000 by 20

:33:33. > :33:36.20. PCS, union which includes the union working in Her Majesty 's

:33:37. > :33:41.Courts and Tribunal services, the Crown Prosecution Service 's and the

:33:42. > :33:46.private sector prison guard service has stated that high utilisation

:33:47. > :33:49.rates can only be achieved by listing several MP contested matters

:33:50. > :33:55.in the same court on the basis they will not all be effective. Before

:33:56. > :34:00.the hearings are effective and one or more cases has to be delayed, it

:34:01. > :34:04.adds inconvenience. Lack of available court time for listing

:34:05. > :34:09.cases, often due to a shortage of staff, causes cases to be adjourned

:34:10. > :34:13.for long periods. Many courts already struggled to lift family

:34:14. > :34:23.multi-day cases due to the lack of courtrooms and lack of staff. This

:34:24. > :34:28.often means cancelling courts and cause further delays. A report on

:34:29. > :34:35.the closures consultation means figures over estimate the time these

:34:36. > :34:41.courts can be used. For example, they cite that North Haven

:34:42. > :34:45.Magistrates' Court has a maximum utilisation of 1240 days, according

:34:46. > :34:51.to government assessments. Staff working there put it at 992 days. In

:34:52. > :34:59.many instances, we have heard from honourable members that travel times

:35:00. > :35:03.of these court closures will cause unacceptable inconvenience to

:35:04. > :35:07.constituents. According to the Government, they say that most

:35:08. > :35:12.people will still be able to reach a court within a one-hour car journey.

:35:13. > :35:17.It has been said on a number of occasions, and most recently by the

:35:18. > :35:22.Law Society, that the methodology used to calculate travel times was

:35:23. > :35:27.not transfer -- transparent or independently verified. Travel time

:35:28. > :35:30.is given in the consultation paper represent the best case scenario. I

:35:31. > :35:36.know from my own experience that since Neath Magistrates' Court

:35:37. > :35:41.closed in May 2014, my constituents have had to travel to Swansea,

:35:42. > :35:46.denying them access to local justice in that own community. Constituents

:35:47. > :35:52.and magistrates and local solicitors working in the area suggest that

:35:53. > :35:57.closure of a local court has had a meditative impact locally. Several

:35:58. > :36:05.areas of my constituency are far removed from the courts. They are

:36:06. > :36:09.now experiencing use in Swansea. Public transport is limited. It

:36:10. > :36:13.operates infrequently. The travelling times far exceed the

:36:14. > :36:19.so-called one-hour travel time limit. With opposing sides victims,

:36:20. > :36:24.witnesses and perpetrators potentially sat on the same bus or

:36:25. > :36:28.train. Now the Neath civil and family Court is on the list of

:36:29. > :36:33.closures. This will mean that constituents will have to travel to

:36:34. > :36:43.port Tolbert. They will have to join the people who have also been moved

:36:44. > :36:47.from another civil and family Court at Bridgend. I visited the court at

:36:48. > :36:51.Port Talbot and questioned whether it could there be increased workflow

:36:52. > :36:56.and whether it would be sufficient for the purposes. The journey from

:36:57. > :37:05.Glyn Neath to Port Talbot takes one hour and 35 minutes. There is added

:37:06. > :37:11.walking time and not allowing for heavy traffic problems. Those on low

:37:12. > :37:16.incomes often have to choose between buying necessities or the cost of

:37:17. > :37:20.travel to court, causing hardship at what is already a stressful time.

:37:21. > :37:24.The closures have caused great inconvenience to many people in

:37:25. > :37:29.Neath, who may find themselves victims of spurious allegations or

:37:30. > :37:33.being charged unnecessarily. Victims of domestic abuse, for example, have

:37:34. > :37:37.to travel further to seek emergency protection at a critical time when

:37:38. > :37:41.any delays could lead to wreck too further and serious harm. In

:37:42. > :37:44.addition to affecting our constituents, who are forced to

:37:45. > :37:48.travel further afield, the closures will mean redundancies and lost

:37:49. > :37:56.jobs. They note that in many constituencies across the UK, every

:37:57. > :38:01.job is much needed. -- I know. Even if jobs are retained, the higher

:38:02. > :38:07.travelling times, it will particularly impact those staff with

:38:08. > :38:10.caring responsibilities and no staff with disabilities. The consultation

:38:11. > :38:15.did not address this aspect of the closures. The court closures will

:38:16. > :38:20.also have broader implications. In Neath, now the Magistrates' Court is

:38:21. > :38:24.closed, the police are forced to travel all the way to Swansea to get

:38:25. > :38:29.warrants, taking away valuable time on the beat. I am sure this is the

:38:30. > :38:34.case in many other areas and these issues should also be addressed in

:38:35. > :38:38.light of future closures. I have spoken to many working women and

:38:39. > :38:41.alongside our justice system and I hear time and again of a perfect

:38:42. > :38:50.storm of pressure on the court's system. There will be more time and

:38:51. > :38:54.more follow-up work by the courts. At the centre may have been cuts to

:38:55. > :38:59.the numbers of administrators and clerks in the court service. We're

:39:00. > :39:03.looking at a raft of court closures. The consequences are frustrating for

:39:04. > :39:07.users and those working there. Increased waiting time outside

:39:08. > :39:11.courts would mean uncertainty around when cases would be heard,

:39:12. > :39:16.particularly problematic for those reliant on public transport or when

:39:17. > :39:21.parties are distressed. They include valuable people, all who have young

:39:22. > :39:27.children waiting with them at court. Lack of availability of court time

:39:28. > :39:32.means delays in procedures. For example, a transferred tenancy

:39:33. > :39:36.application in a domestic abuse and financial remedies case, which would

:39:37. > :39:39.normally last half a day at Edmonton County Court was waiting seven and a

:39:40. > :39:45.half months for listing for the final hearing. The higher volumes of

:39:46. > :39:49.cases at fewer call centres, the buildings themselves will come under

:39:50. > :39:54.pressure. It is not unusual for advocates to have to discuss highly

:39:55. > :39:58.confidential and sometimes highly distressing matters sat on the floor

:39:59. > :40:04.of a corridor or in a stairwell because conference rooms are full.

:40:05. > :40:11.Let us not forget the impact on jurors, not included on the list of

:40:12. > :40:16.affected groups. On many occasions in this House, we have heard how the

:40:17. > :40:18.wonders of technology work in transforming the judicial service,

:40:19. > :40:24.making proximity to court building is a thing of the past. I am not one

:40:25. > :40:28.to stand in the way of progress. We simply have not had to date a

:40:29. > :40:32.sufficient, or indeed any, explanation of how the judicial

:40:33. > :40:36.system fit for the 21st century and beyond will function. We have been

:40:37. > :40:43.told by the minister about the use of video conferencing. For the most

:40:44. > :40:48.honourable in society, who are most in need of support, those who do not

:40:49. > :40:52.own a car and are relied on public transport for travel to court, it is

:40:53. > :40:56.possible they do not have reliable, secure and private intranet access

:40:57. > :40:59.will do many of my constituents in Neath, like so many of the

:41:00. > :41:04.honourable members we have heard today, do not own a computer or

:41:05. > :41:07.smartphone. They have no internet access at home and all local

:41:08. > :41:12.libraries seem to be closing due to local authority cuts. We need a real

:41:13. > :41:17.exhalation as to how this practice will work, how will have honourable

:41:18. > :41:22.victims be kept safe and secure doing any online or remote receiving

:41:23. > :41:27.is? -- file honourable victims. Proper support needs to be

:41:28. > :41:31.considered. We are also due up proper explanation of costs

:41:32. > :41:37.involved. I recently met with the personal support unit, which

:41:38. > :41:40.provides guidance for court users. Hoping to translate the very

:41:41. > :41:46.specific language and procedures in the court service in delayed terms,

:41:47. > :41:50.they indicated it is far more about in person support. Also about

:41:51. > :41:59.compassion and sympathy, reassurance and guidance, in a difficult and

:42:00. > :42:04.vulnerable time. This cannot be provided by a teleconference.

:42:05. > :42:10.Moreover, the Government case for the closures is underpinned by and

:42:11. > :42:13.tested digital processes. According to the PCS union, the national

:42:14. > :42:21.roll-out of a number of digital products have been delayed as they

:42:22. > :42:23.were not fit for purpose. I thank my honourable friend were gaining

:42:24. > :42:28.weight of the doctors she grew is made the system is in failure, so

:42:29. > :42:37.how could the minister possibly assert this is a good replacement

:42:38. > :42:44.for the estate? -- my honourable friend for giving way will stop I

:42:45. > :42:53.would like to refer to the uniform which is used to calculate assets in

:42:54. > :42:59.divorce cases. -- referred to the form. There was a fault in the form.

:43:00. > :43:06.It was corrected by the minister. Over 36,000 cases obtained forms in

:43:07. > :43:11.the period affected. The minister regretted the error and said this

:43:12. > :43:16.set aside would not attract the fees. He needed advice over complex

:43:17. > :43:21.issues and that would not be there for them through legal aid. I would

:43:22. > :43:31.also referred to the client and cost management system. Due to compulsory

:43:32. > :43:36.use -- due to come into compulsory use in April 20 16. Over the past

:43:37. > :43:40.few weeks, it was said many legal aid firms are unable to access the

:43:41. > :43:45.situation they get thrown out when they are submitting the form. The

:43:46. > :43:51.system is not fit for purpose. This should be delayed. Lastly, the

:43:52. > :43:57.online court proposals for online court is up to ?25,000. Individuals

:43:58. > :44:01.would have no legal ad vice for that and maybe up against big

:44:02. > :44:05.organisations with only good teams, which be a major disadvantage and

:44:06. > :44:10.therefore I think this needs rigorous testing, and evaluation.

:44:11. > :44:16.What happens in the event of technological failures? What happens

:44:17. > :44:22.in the instance of unreliable technology? These will undoubtedly

:44:23. > :44:25.cause further delays in proceedings rather than expediting them and

:44:26. > :44:31.adding to the stress for victims and witnesses. The Law Society

:44:32. > :44:34.acknowledges the aim of increasing the use of technology but during the

:44:35. > :44:39.consultation process recommended that it would be prudent to

:44:40. > :44:41.modernise courts with new technology, assess how it is working

:44:42. > :44:47.and then consider savings, rather than the other way around and I

:44:48. > :44:51.agree. I welcome the government 's desire to harness technology

:44:52. > :44:55.positively and efficiently but we need to hear more about these plans

:44:56. > :45:03.and surely these systems should be tested and piloted before many of

:45:04. > :45:05.these closures go ahead. Perhaps the Minister will take the opportunity

:45:06. > :45:10.now to explain in detail what his thinking is. And how it will work

:45:11. > :45:23.for those who want access to justice. It should not lead to the

:45:24. > :45:29.haves and have-nots. Finally, I wish to highlight that the last round of

:45:30. > :45:35.closures and use of these buildings following these closures. Many of

:45:36. > :45:37.the courts that are slated to close or have recently closed have better

:45:38. > :45:43.facilities than the alternatives people would be forced to travel to.

:45:44. > :45:53.I raised questions over the proceeds of sales of these buildings and the

:45:54. > :45:57.ongoing cost. These buildings tend to be prominently and conveniently

:45:58. > :46:01.located in town centres and if they are left to rack and ruin then they

:46:02. > :46:07.can have a negative effect on the town centre. The Ministry of Justice

:46:08. > :46:12.is still paying to maintain 15 of the courts closed in 2010. These are

:46:13. > :46:18.costing the taxpayer over ?40,000 per month secure and maintain. The

:46:19. > :46:22.most expensive upkeep is the former Magistrates' Court in Oulton,

:46:23. > :46:26.costing ?10,000 a month. The facilities that existed there for

:46:27. > :46:32.its users have not been replicated at the court that received the work.

:46:33. > :46:41.In some instances, the buildings are not suitable for any other use other

:46:42. > :46:47.than a court. In conclusion, it is unavoidable fact that savings needs

:46:48. > :46:52.to be identified in the court system as our colleagues have already said.

:46:53. > :46:56.One of the central talents of our common law system is the local

:46:57. > :47:00.delivery of local justice with access to justice for all. Any court

:47:01. > :47:12.closures must minimise the negative impact on access to justice for all

:47:13. > :47:24.our citizens. Thank you. May I start off by congratulating the honourable

:47:25. > :47:26.members who are on the order paper, and allowing the opportunity for

:47:27. > :47:32.colleagues to debate is very important issue one more time. May I

:47:33. > :47:37.also thank all the other people who have contributed. We will try to

:47:38. > :47:41.refer to them as best we can in the next few minutes. May I also take

:47:42. > :47:45.the opportunity to welcome the honourable member for Neath on have

:47:46. > :47:52.first outing at the dispatch box and I look forward to debating with her

:47:53. > :47:56.in the weeks and months ahead. I am keenly aware that members hold

:47:57. > :48:02.strong views about the importance of courts in their constituencies and

:48:03. > :48:06.the impact of the closure that they have on the delivery of justice.

:48:07. > :48:14.This has been abundantly clear today in the numerous other parliamentary

:48:15. > :48:18.debates I have had, as well as questions and meetings I have had

:48:19. > :48:21.with honourable members, and letters I have written in response to the

:48:22. > :48:26.correspondence that they have engaged in. I very much, Mr Deputy

:48:27. > :48:31.Speaker, understand the sincerity of those concerns. I hope however that

:48:32. > :48:37.honourable members will appreciate that the decision to close a court

:48:38. > :48:41.is not one that I take lightly. It is a decision that I'm prepared to

:48:42. > :48:47.make when it is necessary to do so to support the social reform of our

:48:48. > :48:53.court and Tribunal system, and to bring the court system up to the

:48:54. > :48:58.modern 21st century. We need to create a modern and flexible court

:48:59. > :49:04.and tribunal service fit for the modern 21st-century as I say. Court

:49:05. > :49:09.staff and the judiciary work very hard but they face challenges to

:49:10. > :49:11.deliver a sufficient service when infrastructure that supports the

:49:12. > :49:18.administration 's is inefficient and disjointed.

:49:19. > :49:23.Some of the technology that supports services is decades old. -- courts.

:49:24. > :49:28.Few services we offer can be accessed online. We continue to use

:49:29. > :49:35.paper forms and when court users need to make a payment, we often

:49:36. > :49:40.only accept cash or cheque. We need to modernise the way courts and

:49:41. > :49:44.tribunal 's operates to reduce efficiencies. We need to open up new

:49:45. > :49:47.ways for the public to access justice. The government is

:49:48. > :49:55.supporting this reform with a very significant investment. ?700 million

:49:56. > :49:59.over the next four years will transform the experience of everyone

:50:00. > :50:05.who comes into contact with courts and the tribunal. We will provide

:50:06. > :50:09.new services and deliver better more joined up ways of working across the

:50:10. > :50:14.justice system. These reforms will increase access to justice by making

:50:15. > :50:18.it swifter and easier to use, and more efficient. I appreciate that

:50:19. > :50:25.some people have concerns about the consultation exercise that we

:50:26. > :50:28.conducted, and I have apologised at the dispatch box for errors that

:50:29. > :50:34.have occurred in some of the individual court areas concerned.

:50:35. > :50:39.But I want to assure... I will in a moment. I want to assure the House

:50:40. > :50:44.that whilst there were some inaccuracies, the decisions that

:50:45. > :50:49.were finally taken were taken on the correct information and the

:50:50. > :50:58.decisions were taken after careful incineration of all the submissions

:50:59. > :51:01.that were made well over 2100. Thank you for giving way and I should

:51:02. > :51:06.apologise for not being here for much of the debate due to other

:51:07. > :51:14.parliamentary business. I don't like having to intervene on so kindly

:51:15. > :51:21.Minister but frankly these closures for justice are not a policy, they

:51:22. > :51:25.are a negation of a policy. -- for Chichester. Everybody understands

:51:26. > :51:29.the need for financial stringency, but no economic rationales have been

:51:30. > :51:34.provided, despite repeated requests, for these closures, and until it is

:51:35. > :51:38.rightly, I think people will be deeply concerned about it. The court

:51:39. > :51:43.using Chichester is above the national average, the travel times

:51:44. > :51:49.are seriously flawed, will the Minister now at least be prepared to

:51:50. > :51:56.reconsider where no economic case has been provided? I hope that I

:51:57. > :52:06.will get some time in June of that intervention. -- due. My right

:52:07. > :52:11.honourable friend speaks with passion and he and I have

:52:12. > :52:16.corresponded much and have met many occasions. In fact, it is probably

:52:17. > :52:19.fair to say that I have dreaded entering the tearoom when I knew he

:52:20. > :52:24.was there because he would come along and speak to me. I think he

:52:25. > :52:29.would agree that I have tried to give him the best information that I

:52:30. > :52:34.can but we will have to agree to disagree in terms of the final

:52:35. > :52:41.conclusion that he once. We have listened carefully and that is why,

:52:42. > :52:46.in addition to the five court buildings we have maintained, we

:52:47. > :52:52.have modified additional plans for a further 22 sites, and the honourable

:52:53. > :52:59.lady who opens the debates, she will be mindful of that week is of course

:53:00. > :53:01.the court work was going to be transferred initially to another

:53:02. > :53:06.court, Wandsworth, six miles away from Lambert, but will now be just

:53:07. > :53:10.two miles away at Camberwell Green, and that was a consequence of the

:53:11. > :53:17.meeting we had, and engagement with the local community. -- Lambeth. In

:53:18. > :53:21.eight of the 22 sites where changes have been made, we will not close

:53:22. > :53:27.the court in suitable alternatives... I will shortly.

:53:28. > :53:31.Until suitable local alternative provision is in place. Work is

:53:32. > :53:36.underway to determine the specific provision that will be provided at

:53:37. > :53:39.each of the locations. Work is underway to evaluate a number of

:53:40. > :53:44.options for holding hearings away from traditional court buildings and

:53:45. > :53:50.I expect further testing to take place over the coming months. Can we

:53:51. > :53:55.quickly clarify whether what he had said is accurate? He's indicating

:53:56. > :54:03.that all of the cases that were to be held in Putney will be helping

:54:04. > :54:06.Camberwell. -- held in. How much of the 7 million budget is going to go

:54:07. > :54:15.to police facilities or council facilities to make sure video link

:54:16. > :54:19.is possible for people? This is a four-year reform programme, worth

:54:20. > :54:22.over ?700 million, and clearly the intention is to make sure we have

:54:23. > :54:26.one of the best justice systems in the world. I am not going to give

:54:27. > :54:33.him the details right now in terms of the precise minutiae of breakdown

:54:34. > :54:41.of a four-year programme with so much money. The honourable gentleman

:54:42. > :54:44.says, I don't know but I would say to him that if he had experience

:54:45. > :54:48.with business, he would know that in a four-year programme with such a

:54:49. > :54:56.huge sum of money, the figures aren't as precise as he would like

:54:57. > :54:59.them at the initial stage. An important aspect of this testing and

:55:00. > :55:05.evaluation will be making sure any hearings that I held outside of a

:55:06. > :55:09.traditional court of appropriate levels of security for the public,

:55:10. > :55:13.judiciary and court staff. The issue of travel time was mentioned by a

:55:14. > :55:20.number of people. What I would say is that there needs to be a

:55:21. > :55:28.fundamental recognition that far fewer people would have to travel to

:55:29. > :55:33.court in the first place. We intend to use modern technology, there are

:55:34. > :55:37.already video conferencing facilities available, and the charge

:55:38. > :55:44.made by the honourable member for need, the shadow opposition member,

:55:45. > :55:47.has this been tested in any way, well, what I would say to her is

:55:48. > :55:52.that we already have video conferencing facilities. -- Neath.

:55:53. > :55:57.For example, there is a community centre in Wales used to give

:55:58. > :56:03.evidence. What I am keen to emphasise is that we also already

:56:04. > :56:08.have alternative places that are used as courts. We have had tribunal

:56:09. > :56:16.'s conducted on oil rigs in the North Sea. Only yesterday, a

:56:17. > :56:22.colleague of ours, a lawyer, told me of probation cases that she was

:56:23. > :56:31.involved in in public houses. I will give way. I don't disagree with them

:56:32. > :56:35.about new technology but try asking to look at my constituency in North

:56:36. > :56:39.Durham. It is nonsense that people can travel to Newcastle in 10-15

:56:40. > :56:43.minutes, instead of travelling to Peterlee. I have raised it before

:56:44. > :56:48.but please look at it again because it makes no sense. There comes a

:56:49. > :56:53.point when you have got to start taking decisions and you have to

:56:54. > :56:59.agree to disagree. This whole programme started before last year's

:57:00. > :57:03.summer recess. We had a very lengthy consultation period, I have had

:57:04. > :57:07.numerous debates, I have met more people in this House than I can

:57:08. > :57:13.remember, and there has been huge dialogue. I am afraid there needs to

:57:14. > :57:17.be recognition that we have listened and made changes in a huge number of

:57:18. > :57:22.cases. It may not be the case in your case but I'm afraid we will

:57:23. > :57:27.have to agree to disagree. Mr Deputy Speaker, my honourable friend, the

:57:28. > :57:31.Member for High Peak, raised concerns about the effectiveness of

:57:32. > :57:35.the administration process that will see the programme through and I want

:57:36. > :57:39.to emphasise to him that I will be keeping a very sharp eye on

:57:40. > :57:43.proceedings and if he has any concerns with his local area, I am

:57:44. > :57:47.more than happy to maintain a meeting with senior people at a

:57:48. > :57:54.local level so he has the comfort he once. The honourable member for

:57:55. > :57:58.Bridgend spoke of the wonderful work magistrates do in our courts and I

:57:59. > :58:04.can only echo those comments and say that many of them recognised the

:58:05. > :58:09.need for reform. My honourable friend, the Member for Chislehurst,

:58:10. > :58:14.spoke about the very useful work of the Justice Select Committee, and he

:58:15. > :58:21.also brought his own expertise to the House. He also questioned the

:58:22. > :58:24.reliability of the IT projects that we will undertake and I want to

:58:25. > :58:30.emphasise to him that we are taking a staged approach, and not one where

:58:31. > :58:40.we are putting all our eggs into one vast, and we are bringing in expert

:58:41. > :58:45.advice from outside to assist us. I will briefly give way but I must

:58:46. > :58:48.make progress. Can you deal with the question about what has happened to

:58:49. > :58:54.the ten courts close under the previous programme, if he doesn't

:58:55. > :59:02.have the information to hand, can he look in the library? That ten is now

:59:03. > :59:07.reduced to nine and there are put in place to sell some of the courts and

:59:08. > :59:12.some of the courts have had genuine difficulties, and there has been

:59:13. > :59:14.joint occupation with other parties and for the remaining courts, we

:59:15. > :59:56.hope to transfer them to the HCA. go through a terrifying experience

:59:57. > :00:08.whereas with a video conferencing facility are not

:00:09. > :00:14.going out my honourable friend, I am grateful for his comments and those

:00:15. > :00:23.that he made confirming that this is a genuine consultation. The

:00:24. > :00:28.honourable member for Ynys Mon raised the point of digital

:00:29. > :00:34.infrastructure, we will take this on board and certainly make sure that

:00:35. > :00:37.it is on board to support the court reform programme. My honourable

:00:38. > :00:43.friend the Member for Torbay spoke about low-level offences, like TV

:00:44. > :00:48.licence offences, and he was seeking assurance that perhaps they could go

:00:49. > :00:52.to a close court. Mr Deputy Speaker, the way we are thinking is that this

:00:53. > :00:56.is the sort of stuff out a low-level that could probably be dealt with

:00:57. > :01:07.online, for the majority of cases where people plead guilty. The

:01:08. > :01:11.honourable member for Merionydd give a powerful speech and raised

:01:12. > :01:15.concerns about access to justice. We are very mindful of rural areas and

:01:16. > :01:19.mindful that we get it right and I am very keen that England will

:01:20. > :01:26.earlier is, having a constituency with auroral element, and wishes

:01:27. > :01:30.coming from. I will give way. The Minister has already mentioned

:01:31. > :01:35.alternative arrangements for eight courts, could he provide more

:01:36. > :01:38.details on that? The honourable lady will forgive me if I don't give

:01:39. > :01:44.detailed provisions on eight courts at the dispatch box. Time is best.

:01:45. > :01:49.I'm happy to write to her in detail and I certainly will do that. Mr

:01:50. > :01:55.Deputy Speaker, the honourable gentleman from Hartlepool, a good

:01:56. > :02:00.friend of mine, again a passionate speech, and he said he would like

:02:01. > :02:03.some assurance that justice was not going to become more stressful. As I

:02:04. > :02:17.have said in the comments to the honourable member Wakefield, we hope

:02:18. > :02:24.that one day people will not have to travel as far, and that they will be

:02:25. > :02:28.able to give evidence in a closer more convenient location. The Member

:02:29. > :02:32.for Halifax, again a heartfelt speech. She spoke about technology.

:02:33. > :02:40.I can assure her that we will be dealing with the ?700 million in a

:02:41. > :02:46.careful way and making sure we get it right. To sum up, the honourable

:02:47. > :02:51.member for Bermondsey, he raised concerns particularly for his local

:02:52. > :02:55.court, I would say that while he's been passionate in defending his

:02:56. > :02:59.court the consultation got only to the sponsors from this community as

:03:00. > :03:04.regards his court, which perhaps, was to give him credit for wanting

:03:05. > :03:08.to keep the court open, the three responses speaks for itself. The

:03:09. > :03:11.honourable member for North Durham, I was pleased he welcomed the need

:03:12. > :03:18.for reform, and take on board what he says, but we will have to agree

:03:19. > :03:22.to disagree. And Mr Deputy Speaker in conclusion I want to conclude by

:03:23. > :03:27.thanking all honourable members and the two members who have managed to

:03:28. > :03:32.secure this debate today, and simply say that this is a major undertaking

:03:33. > :03:36.by the Ministry of Justice and we will be doing as best we can to make

:03:37. > :03:41.sure that we have a justice system fit for the world. Can I conclude by

:03:42. > :03:46.wishing you, Mr Deputy Speaker, and all honourable members and all the

:03:47. > :03:50.clocks are very happy Easter and for most importantly for all these

:03:51. > :03:55.people that continue to ensure that this place operates, especially the

:03:56. > :03:58.security services. Credit, Mr Deputy Speaker. I want to thank every

:03:59. > :04:03.member who has contributed to this debate. The level of concern about

:04:04. > :04:08.the decision to close it is export tribunal is clear. Referred from

:04:09. > :04:10.across the chamber the concerns about physical accessibility is a

:04:11. > :04:15.reason for the closures, serious problems about the use of digital

:04:16. > :04:21.technology especially in areas with poor broadband. From a number of

:04:22. > :04:24.members about sensitive alternative proposals which are more responsive

:04:25. > :04:33.to local geography and democratics yet have been -- graphics yet have

:04:34. > :04:38.been rejected, which underpins the decision about the interrelationship

:04:39. > :04:41.with other public sector cuts. How can police stations provide video

:04:42. > :04:47.links when in my area so many have closed that those that remain are

:04:48. > :04:50.bursting at the seams. We've heard about other decisions including

:04:51. > :04:55.micro and cities enters. I've brought this debate because I am

:04:56. > :05:00.concerned that the decision to close 86 courts and tribunals that joined

:05:01. > :05:03.up plan to continue access the justice will have the greatest

:05:04. > :05:08.impact on vulnerable victims witnesses and defendants. It will

:05:09. > :05:12.cause additional costs to other public sector areas and have a

:05:13. > :05:16.serious impact on the effectiveness of our justice system. I'm grateful

:05:17. > :05:21.to the Minister for his response, I urge him to rethink his proposals

:05:22. > :05:24.and come back to the House with a comprehensive plan that addresses

:05:25. > :05:37.the many concerns that have been raised. The question is, on the

:05:38. > :05:45.order paper, as many of that opinion survey aye. The ayes have it,

:05:46. > :05:52.almost! We don't come to the debate on matters to be raised before the

:05:53. > :05:56.forthcoming adjournment. On behalf of the backbench business committee

:05:57. > :05:59.may I move that this House has considered matters to be raised

:06:00. > :06:02.before the forthcoming adjournment. On behalf of of the chairman of the

:06:03. > :06:06.backbench business committee, who gives his apologies because he has

:06:07. > :06:13.been called Web urgent constituency business. Mr Deputy Speaker, can I

:06:14. > :06:24.first put on record a very sad event. Today has seen the sad death

:06:25. > :06:28.of Johan Cruyff, one of the most brilliant footballers I have ever

:06:29. > :06:34.watched and one who will be remembered for his famous turn. This

:06:35. > :06:38.is also the festival of Beaulieu, as Jewish members will know, this

:06:39. > :06:43.commemorates the delivery of the Jewish people from the Persian king.

:06:44. > :06:50.He attempted the first genocide against the Jewish people and he

:06:51. > :06:53.failed. And we have seen the anniversary of the soup of the rise

:06:54. > :07:00.to power of Hitler in Germany where he inflicted of the rise to power of

:07:01. > :07:03.Hitler, we will forever remember those evil atrocities that he

:07:04. > :07:08.inflicted on the Jewish people and other people. Yet we will also

:07:09. > :07:14.remember on a brighter note the festival wholly. This is the

:07:15. > :07:15.festival of colours where we commemorate Lord Krishna, dancing

:07:16. > :07:30.and playing and throwing colours around. But it also demonstrates the

:07:31. > :07:35.delivery from the fire which is commemorated and today is the second

:07:36. > :07:39.day of this festival and I wish the Hindu and Sikh people everywhere are

:07:40. > :07:44.very happy festival. If I may, Mr Deputy Speaker, to recite the

:07:45. > :07:49.keywords searched doing this festival. And now if I can go on, Mr

:07:50. > :07:53.Deputy Speaker, to talk about some of the issues that I want to raise

:07:54. > :07:59.during this debate before we break the recess. The government has done

:08:00. > :08:05.an awful lot of work, yet there is much more to do. And locally. I come

:08:06. > :08:12.back to the absolute requirement for the left to be installed at Stanmore

:08:13. > :08:16.station. I hope the member from Leicester East, a resident of

:08:17. > :08:20.Stanmore, will no doubt concur with me for this desperate need. This has

:08:21. > :08:25.been going on for more than ten years, the plans for this. The north

:08:26. > :08:33.face of the I go, when residents arrive home at Stanmore station,

:08:34. > :08:39.having to climb 39 steep steps, it really is the 39 steps, and TEFL

:08:40. > :08:44.call this step free access! This has been going on ever since the former

:08:45. > :08:49.Mayor of London deleted it from the budget. And I trust that whoever is

:08:50. > :08:52.elected Mayor of London on May the 5th will deliver for us a lift at

:08:53. > :08:58.Stanmore which is desperately needed. Equally ruthless and other

:08:59. > :09:05.challenge and Stanmore in that Hertfordshire County Council wish to

:09:06. > :09:09.cancel their subsidy on the 142 and the 207 bus routes, a key

:09:10. > :09:13.requirement for people travelling between Watford and Brent Cross and

:09:14. > :09:21.as where. I trust that Hertfordshire County Council will see the justice

:09:22. > :09:25.in that allowing a subsidy to enable their residents to travel to these

:09:26. > :09:30.areas is vital because without that, key bus services to Watford will

:09:31. > :09:34.clearly be dramatically reduced. We have also heard during the Budget

:09:35. > :09:40.the welcome measure that Crossrail to is getting the go-ahead. And I

:09:41. > :09:46.trust that Crossrail and the two will listen to this key business

:09:47. > :09:50.case that we put to Harrow and Wealdstone as part of the massive

:09:51. > :09:56.redevelopment of Crossrail to which is welcomed across London. I've just

:09:57. > :10:01.spoken and will continue to agitate on the redevelopment of the Royal

:10:02. > :10:05.National Orthopaedic Hospital in Stanmore. A brilliant hospital that

:10:06. > :10:11.does brilliant work in completely ridiculous outrageous conditions for

:10:12. > :10:16.the medical professionals who perform such brilliant work. I will

:10:17. > :10:25.give way briefly. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. Will the honourable

:10:26. > :10:28.gentleman know that the radio hospital at Stanmore was Hospital

:10:29. > :10:32.radio of the year, a fantastic place where I started some of my

:10:33. > :10:39.journalism career and indeed which needs support. Great news but could

:10:40. > :10:45.you not save that for your speech because I'm bothered about time for

:10:46. > :10:50.the moment. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker, I will take your

:10:51. > :10:55.admonishment! May I just say that we are on the cusp of this

:10:56. > :10:59.redevelopment. We require the trust development authority to sign of the

:11:00. > :11:04.business case and then work. On the Orthopaedic Hospital immediately

:11:05. > :11:07.with the demolition of existing buildings, the building of a

:11:08. > :11:11.brand-new hospital, a private hospital it and the creation of 300

:11:12. > :11:17.new homes which are desperately needed in Harrow for people to live

:11:18. > :11:23.in. So clearly something that is being held up by NHS bureaucracy.

:11:24. > :11:32.The Chancellor granted the money in 2010 and we still await the prospect

:11:33. > :11:39.of that working. On housing, we have seen some 400 new starts in my

:11:40. > :11:41.constituency. With 560 new home completions in the last year alone

:11:42. > :11:48.bringing new homes for people in my constituency. And I am delighted

:11:49. > :11:53.that in the autumn spending review, the amount of money in spent on

:11:54. > :12:00.housing has been more than doubled. Something we should applaud.

:12:01. > :12:04.Locally, we have had a range of schools announced today, that part

:12:05. > :12:08.high school, Saint Bernadette 's, Canon 's high school, the Krishna

:12:09. > :12:14.Avanti school will all receive additional funding for massive

:12:15. > :12:19.improvements, must complete rebuilding as well as the Aylward

:12:20. > :12:24.school, which is in desperate need of new facilities. The reality is

:12:25. > :12:28.that we have also had the go-ahead, under the enlightened view of this

:12:29. > :12:33.government, of one primary school which will be the first Muslim state

:12:34. > :12:37.aided school, certainly in my constituency, which is one that I

:12:38. > :12:42.strongly support, and Avanti has school which will be the first state

:12:43. > :12:46.aided Hindu school for secondary aged children in this country. This

:12:47. > :12:49.is clearly something we can be proud of, and is being delivered in this

:12:50. > :12:57.multicultural society, we are providing parents with the choice of

:12:58. > :13:05.education that they want children. At ash Mac but there is bad news.

:13:06. > :13:10.The garden tax has been introduced, a collection for garden waste were

:13:11. > :13:15.?75 is charged to the service of collecting the garden waste, and

:13:16. > :13:20.it's only corrected once every three weeks the ?75. A princely sum. At

:13:21. > :13:24.the highest charge in London. A scandal because it is a monopoly

:13:25. > :13:28.service and virtually no one yet has registered to use the service and

:13:29. > :13:34.yet it is due to begin on April one. What an appropriate date to launch

:13:35. > :13:43.such a foolish scheme! At the same time, fly-tipping and Harrow is a

:13:44. > :13:48.disaster, we are seeing it all over the place, it's indeed shocking. And

:13:49. > :13:51.quite clearly the council should get their act together and clean up

:13:52. > :13:57.Harrow for the benefit of all people, and quite clearly if their

:13:58. > :13:59.failure to do so will make it even easier for the incoming Conservative

:14:00. > :15:15.administration of 2018 to deliver. raised in this house on numerous

:15:16. > :15:18.occasions the plight of the disabled in securing

:15:19. > :15:22.Everyday get individuals who are disabled and unable to walk any

:15:23. > :15:25.reasonable distance being prevented from getting a disabled parking

:15:26. > :15:39.permit. I want to mention one or two things before I sit down. I am used

:15:40. > :15:46.to barrack in from the other side... Can I raise the plight, as I have

:15:47. > :15:53.done during the budget debate, of the policyholders? The reality is

:15:54. > :15:57.that it is to the eternal praise of the Chancellor and his team that we

:15:58. > :16:00.honoured our election promise in 2010 and delivered a scheme to

:16:01. > :16:05.compensate the victims of this scandal. However, the reality is

:16:06. > :16:11.that we are still in the position whereby we have very vulnerable

:16:12. > :16:15.people who have only received a small fraction of the amount of

:16:16. > :16:20.money they would be to compared to the loss that they suffered. I

:16:21. > :16:23.believe we have a debt of honour to those people and we should honour

:16:24. > :16:31.that debt by delivering them 100% compensation. We also have a gap of

:16:32. > :16:36.certain other categories, nearly a million people who have not received

:16:37. > :16:39.for compensation. I believe those are also part of that debt of

:16:40. > :16:43.honour. We need to make sure more money is provided so that those

:16:44. > :16:46.people can this a proper life in retirement, because they did the

:16:47. > :16:51.right thing, they saved for their retirement. Through no fault of

:16:52. > :16:56.their own, because of a scandal, they were deprived of a reasonable

:16:57. > :17:00.income in retirement. And I can say that we have exceeded more than 200

:17:01. > :17:02.people of the eight Pichichi in this Parliament.

:17:03. > :17:09.We will continue the battle until such time as the Chancellor sees fit

:17:10. > :17:16.to let us have some money for those people who are due compensation. We

:17:17. > :17:22.have also recently released a report from the primary care and public

:17:23. > :17:28.health group. This is a key report about signposting people within the

:17:29. > :17:33.NHS. I would say very briefly, the reality is that in the primary care

:17:34. > :17:36.sector, far too often, individuals who are ill, arrived at accident and

:17:37. > :17:41.emergency when actually they should be seen by a doctor or a nurse in

:17:42. > :17:46.the primary care Centre, in the GP centre, and we must do more to

:17:47. > :17:51.ensure that they do that. On another health-related matter, namely

:17:52. > :17:58.stopping smoking. I warmly welcome the decision of the Chancellor to

:17:59. > :18:01.continue increasing the tobacco tax by 2% above inflation with an

:18:02. > :18:06.increase of 3% on hand-rolling tobacco. That's a good move and

:18:07. > :18:11.something that we should continue. However I think it's quite right

:18:12. > :18:15.that we should go further. Given the Chancellor has talked about the

:18:16. > :18:18.sugar tax to drive behaviour, let's have a tobacco tax that drives

:18:19. > :18:23.behaviour and delivers just by increasing the tax on tobacco by a

:18:24. > :18:27.penny a cigarette, we would deliver ?500 million a year that could be

:18:28. > :18:34.invested in smoking cessation services. Mr Deputy Speaker, just

:18:35. > :18:38.before I sit down, I will just say that I had the honour this year of

:18:39. > :18:50.taking part in my first visit to India. And my visit to cashmere

:18:51. > :18:54.cemented my view that this country and these people should be reunited

:18:55. > :19:01.as part of India and they should have the right to be integrated and

:19:02. > :19:07.that Pakistani forces should leave Pakistani occupied Kashmir. I also

:19:08. > :19:11.had the opportunity of visiting the world cultural festival and saw at

:19:12. > :19:17.first hand the festival, when we talk about the brilliant work done

:19:18. > :19:22.in the Olympics, this had 165,000 participants who were either dancing

:19:23. > :19:27.or performing and nearly 2,500,000 people attended. When we talk about

:19:28. > :19:37.the grand schemes we put on, just imagine what it is like to pull back

:19:38. > :19:42.together. Mr Deputy Speaker, can I wish you and the staff of the house

:19:43. > :19:47.are very happy Easter. I trust that you have had chance for a break. One

:19:48. > :19:52.thing I would say I am concerned about is that on Easter eggs now, we

:19:53. > :20:00.never see the word Easter. They are just chocolate eggs. It is time we

:20:01. > :20:05.restored the Easter to Easter eggs. Can I first of all save the question

:20:06. > :20:09.is that this house has considered matters to be raised before the

:20:10. > :20:14.forthcoming German, and can I now introduce a ten minute

:20:15. > :20:19.It is a huge pleasure following the honourable member for Harrow East

:20:20. > :20:23.who is a great champion of the ethnic minority communities. He has

:20:24. > :20:29.managed to mention every festival that has occurred in every community

:20:30. > :20:33.and even spoken Hindi in the house. It is a surprise it has taken him so

:20:34. > :20:39.long to get to India knowing his huge friendship with the Hindu and

:20:40. > :20:43.the Indian communities. I agree with what he says about Stanmore station.

:20:44. > :20:49.With type two diabetes it is quite good for me to climb those 39 steps

:20:50. > :20:52.at the end of every day. Can I ask him, since he is here, to take up

:20:53. > :20:57.the issue of the traffic on Brockley Hill. We will not wait for his

:20:58. > :21:02.response. The traffic is getting very fast. We miss having the

:21:03. > :21:05.honourable member for Finchley and Golders Green as the leader of

:21:06. > :21:09.Barnet Council because I know if he was there this would have been

:21:10. > :21:12.sorted out. I hope he will have a word with the honourable member for

:21:13. > :21:18.Hendon to see what can be done to reduce the traffic flow on the road.

:21:19. > :21:22.Mr Deputy Speaker, the honourable member mentioned anniversaries and

:21:23. > :21:27.festivals. I have a very sad anniversary to report to the house.

:21:28. > :21:32.Saturday 26th of March marks the first anniversary of the conflict in

:21:33. > :21:37.Yemen. Of course Yemen has been the subject of conflict for many, many

:21:38. > :21:42.years, but it's only recently that the conflict has turned to something

:21:43. > :21:47.of a civil war. The member for Glenrothes secured a debate on me

:21:48. > :21:50.yesterday in Westminster Hall about this matter and I commend him and

:21:51. > :21:57.others who have raised this matter in the house. In this time since the

:21:58. > :22:02.start of the conflict a year ago, 8800 civilians have been killed or

:22:03. > :22:10.injured, and at this moment 3 million children are out of school.

:22:11. > :22:15.Access to medication in besieged areas has become virtually

:22:16. > :22:20.impossible. Although I'm pleased to note the UN sponsored peace talks

:22:21. > :22:26.have been rescheduled for the 18th of April in Kuwait, these talks

:22:27. > :22:31.resumed some time ago before the adjournment and they can only

:22:32. > :22:36.succeed with a strong support of the United Kingdom government. And I

:22:37. > :22:43.urge that Deputy leader of the scum when she comes to respond, to pass

:22:44. > :22:48.on the hopes of all of us that the government will give its full

:22:49. > :22:56.support behind what is happening, their -- de deputy leader of the

:22:57. > :23:01.house. The all-party group yesterday heard from Amnesty International and

:23:02. > :23:05.the number of freelance journalist 's about the problems that still

:23:06. > :23:11.occur in Yemen. The situation is a catastrophe. And it is important

:23:12. > :23:16.that we work hard to resolve that conflict. I would particularly like

:23:17. > :23:21.to commend other members of the group who attended that meeting. Two

:23:22. > :23:26.of them born Mike myself in Yemen. The honourable member for Portsmouth

:23:27. > :23:33.South, the honourable member for Walsall South and the members for

:23:34. > :23:37.Glenrothes, Glasgow Central, Liverpool West, Derby, Worthing

:23:38. > :23:42.insurer, and the noble Baroness Uden, all of whom took time out of

:23:43. > :23:49.their very busy day to be there at the meeting when we heard this

:23:50. > :23:53.terrible update from those groups. Can I say this about the budget? I

:23:54. > :23:57.know it has been a subject of controversy in the house. But I

:23:58. > :24:02.liked one particular aspect, and that is the introduction of the

:24:03. > :24:06.sugar tax. I know Easter is not a good time to talk about not having

:24:07. > :24:11.too much sugar and not eating too many chocolates but actually I want

:24:12. > :24:14.to congratulate the Chancellor for taking the brave decision of

:24:15. > :24:19.introducing the sugar tax, and the public health minister, the member

:24:20. > :24:25.for Agassi and the diabetes are thought he has done. We should not

:24:26. > :24:30.wait the two years for the tax to be imposed. Government departments can

:24:31. > :24:35.act swiftly now. Simon Stephens, the chief executive of NHS England, has

:24:36. > :24:41.decided to impose his own 20% sugar tax across the NHS throughout

:24:42. > :24:44.England from February this year. The honourable member for Uxbridge and

:24:45. > :24:49.South Ruislip, before he gets to fund that left that the honourable

:24:50. > :24:54.member for Harrow wants so much, has imposed his own sugar tax in City

:24:55. > :24:59.Hall. I think we need to do this pretty rapidly, and we can do it

:25:00. > :25:04.even in this house. When we get to that even, to the counter to pay for

:25:05. > :25:08.our bananas and apples that I'm sure we buy when we get there, do we have

:25:09. > :25:13.to be confronted by club biscuits and Coca-Cola in the fridge? Let us

:25:14. > :25:19.make an effort in this house to make sure that members, when they get to

:25:20. > :25:24.that counter, are not suggest by those who would rather allow us to

:25:25. > :25:28.have products that are full of sugar. This week the government

:25:29. > :25:33.announced its national diabetes prevention programme. 100,000 people

:25:34. > :25:37.will be offered places to stop them developing type two diabetes. I am

:25:38. > :25:42.extremely pleased that the East Midlands has been selected, and that

:25:43. > :25:46.one of the areas will be in my constituency in Leicester East. I am

:25:47. > :25:52.concerned that the recent decision by the local health authority to

:25:53. > :25:59.take away the deathly services from the Leicester diabetes centre, and

:26:00. > :26:01.to give them to a private pharmaceutical company in order to

:26:02. > :26:07.make sure that type two diabetics get that support, I think these are

:26:08. > :26:13.the kinds of services that would be provided by those who have invented

:26:14. > :26:19.the scheme. Desmond was invented in Leicester. And Desmond has been

:26:20. > :26:27.rolled out throughout the country. Daphne, which is a scheme

:26:28. > :26:31.specifically for type one diabetes is itself under pressure. So when we

:26:32. > :26:37.get back after the recess I will certainly be raising the issue of

:26:38. > :26:41.Desmond and Daphne again. This is essential to ensuring that we get a

:26:42. > :26:45.proper service for those of us who are diabetics and those of us who

:26:46. > :26:51.want to ensure that diabetes is kept under control. I want to thank the

:26:52. > :26:53.deputy leader of the house for mentioning the Tiffin cup when she

:26:54. > :27:00.spoke earlier today. The honourable member for Southend is one of the

:27:01. > :27:04.great champions of the Tiffin cup, I think he's nominated every single

:27:05. > :27:10.time since it has been in existence. Dealing with products in food that

:27:11. > :27:14.are low-fat, I'm sure. I hope members when they go out for their

:27:15. > :27:20.Easter holidays will make sure they get their nominations in. I want to

:27:21. > :27:23.end first of all in echoing what the honourable member for Harrow East

:27:24. > :27:29.said about Johan Cruyff. He was a great footballer. I want to end by

:27:30. > :27:32.mentioning my own football team, the momentous season of Leicester City

:27:33. > :27:38.football club, leading the Premier League since before Christmas.

:27:39. > :27:45.Leicester City is also a Bastian of multiculturalism. Owned by a Thai,

:27:46. > :27:54.we have an Irish chief executive, an Italian manager and players from all

:27:55. > :28:00.over the world. Mahrez from Algeria, Kasper Schmeichel the great Dane,

:28:01. > :28:10.Robert Huth from Germany. Ozek you from Japan. And Jeffrey Schlupp from

:28:11. > :28:16.Ghana. And our own Vardy and Morgan. We have lots of home-grown players

:28:17. > :28:19.as well. It is marvellous to see a team like Leicester City, which I

:28:20. > :28:24.have supported for all the 29 years I have been a member of Parliament,

:28:25. > :28:35.not far from your constituency indeed. Breaking the monopoly of the

:28:36. > :28:37.big four. It was a sports agent who argued for a closed European

:28:38. > :28:42.champions system and that only the big four should be able to get to

:28:43. > :28:46.the Champions League every single year. I think Leicester City has

:28:47. > :28:50.shown, whatever the results at the end of the day, and obviously I hope

:28:51. > :28:54.that we will go through and lift the Premier League trophy, it is

:28:55. > :28:59.important to have teams like Leicester being able to compete at

:29:00. > :29:04.the highest level and indeed be at that head of the English Premier

:29:05. > :29:09.League, the greatest football league in the world. So, with seven games

:29:10. > :29:15.left, five points ahead, I do look forward to a very interesting two

:29:16. > :29:20.weeks but I hope that even if your team is Spurs or Arsenal and you

:29:21. > :29:24.want them to win the league, or West Ham, that you choose Leicester as

:29:25. > :29:29.your second choice. It sounds almost like an election. But I think that

:29:30. > :29:32.if we win that trophy it will be a huge boost for all those who feel

:29:33. > :29:44.that dream can really be lived. Sir David Amis. Before the house

:29:45. > :29:50.holed adjourns for the Easter recess and above points are to be raised

:29:51. > :29:57.and if take that were here they would sing it is good to be back!

:29:58. > :30:02.The happy line has now returned to the misery line. Although I am

:30:03. > :30:05.delighted to hear from one of our ministers this week that the

:30:06. > :30:10.Department for Transport will waive the clause in the franchise

:30:11. > :30:14.agreement that states that 95% of the trains must stop at Barking,

:30:15. > :30:19.West Ham and Limehouse. This will be a first move towards restoring the

:30:20. > :30:23.timetable changes that have upset so many people. I have to say, Madsm

:30:24. > :30:28.Deputy Speaker, shame on marginal express, writing to the chairman of

:30:29. > :30:32.the Tory party complaining that I was representing my constituents.

:30:33. > :30:37.They haven't heard the last of that from me and they haven't got a

:30:38. > :30:41.chance now of getting the franchise for the Greater Anglia railway! I

:30:42. > :30:44.happen to be the chairman of the all-party car safety group and we

:30:45. > :30:48.had an excellent meeting this week and would very much like a review of

:30:49. > :30:53.the guidance to building regulations which had its origin in the last

:30:54. > :31:02.century to be changed. We want the Minister to look very carefully at

:31:03. > :31:10.these regulations, also, we've had a meeting with the Minister of State

:31:11. > :31:13.for schools about new things to be installed in schools, it is crazy

:31:14. > :31:16.that this arrangement has stopped yet I am to mystic that my

:31:17. > :31:23.honourable friend will change that. Thirdly, the members will be aware

:31:24. > :31:25.of arrangement for PCCs and the policing and crime Bill, the

:31:26. > :31:30.all-party parliament regrouped remain concerned about the impact

:31:31. > :31:34.this might have on fire safety while building regulations remain in the

:31:35. > :31:39.DCLG. The Chilcot Report like many other members, I am, as the kinks

:31:40. > :31:44.might have said, tired of waiting for this report! It has just gone on

:31:45. > :31:49.and on. The latest information is that it will be delayed until after

:31:50. > :31:55.the EU referendum. I don't think that is good enough. I think the

:31:56. > :31:57.families deserve better than that. I had the privilege, Madam Deputy

:31:58. > :32:01.Speaker, of introducing a ten minute rule Bill on January 27 this year

:32:02. > :32:05.called the driving instructors registration bill. I am delighted

:32:06. > :32:10.and swiftly went through all its stages in the House of Commons, the

:32:11. > :32:14.amendments that at the Bill Nick it easier for instructors to leave the

:32:15. > :32:19.register without penalty and register again without compromising

:32:20. > :32:22.the standard necessary to ensure safe and cupboard and instruction.

:32:23. > :32:26.I'm delighted to tell the House that and is now going through the

:32:27. > :32:30.relevant stages in the House of Lords and hopefully we will get

:32:31. > :32:36.percent in May. So I say, it is worth pioneering a ten minute rule

:32:37. > :32:42.Bill. As most of us know, south and is the alternative city of culture

:32:43. > :32:46.2017. We are very excited by this. Hull has decided to have four

:32:47. > :32:51.seasonal events, self and will have one every month. And the Secretary

:32:52. > :32:55.of State for sport media and culture visited there recently and saw the

:32:56. > :32:59.wonderful work of metal, with the first digital exhibition in a local

:33:00. > :33:02.park, we've seen the opening of a wonderful new library, with at the

:33:03. > :33:08.opening of the branch of the National Jazz archive, a project

:33:09. > :33:15.headed by the wonderful local jazz musician Digby Fairweather. And also

:33:16. > :33:19.attended recently wonderful consonants by the 70th Orchestra

:33:20. > :33:22.among others so I urge all colleagues in the House, head south

:33:23. > :33:29.to Southend next year and everyone will receive a royal welcome. Madam

:33:30. > :33:33.Deputy Speaker, the Chairman of Ways and Means was the winner of the

:33:34. > :33:38.first responsible pet ownership competition last year. In fact I

:33:39. > :33:44.think he had about a dozen pets, including a you taught us. The

:33:45. > :33:49.second event will take place in July -- including huge tortoise. I hope

:33:50. > :33:55.that as many colleagues as possible will attend this event. Because,

:33:56. > :34:00.Madam Deputy Speaker, pets should never be acquired as a fashion

:34:01. > :34:01.accessory. And readers should do more to make buyers aware of the

:34:02. > :34:16.duty of care due to their pets, neutering. I had the honour of

:34:17. > :34:20.sponsoring Salt awareness week, suppose it ties in with sugar and I

:34:21. > :34:26.was shocked to find out that much of our staple products like bread,

:34:27. > :34:33.conflicts, tinned tomato soup and cheddar cheese all have apparently

:34:34. > :34:37.high levels of salt in them. I think the excellent work done under the

:34:38. > :34:41.Food Standards Agency when the UK lead the world in salt reduction and

:34:42. > :34:47.prevented unnecessary deaths now needs to be reinvigorated by the

:34:48. > :34:51.Department of Health survey can look again at setting up an independent

:34:52. > :34:55.agency to regulate the amount of salt that manufacturers can add to

:34:56. > :35:00.their foods. I recently met with representatives from Safer

:35:01. > :35:03.Medicines. An independent group whose aim is to change the way that

:35:04. > :35:09.medicines are tested so that they are safer for parents. It is an

:35:10. > :35:13.absolutely excellent idea. They wish to end the testing of medicine is an

:35:14. > :35:18.animal is not because of animal cruelty issues necessarily, although

:35:19. > :35:21.this is a serious concern but because animal testing cannot

:35:22. > :35:25.predict safe medicines that humans. Meningitis decently in the

:35:26. > :35:33.constituency are present we have had the tragic death of the head girl of

:35:34. > :35:38.a local school. At just 17. How the family can cope with that tragedy I

:35:39. > :35:43.do not know. Vital work is being carried out by the meningitis

:35:44. > :35:47.research foundation, meningitis Now. I understand 800,000 people signed a

:35:48. > :35:51.petition calling for the meningitis B vaccine to be given to all

:35:52. > :35:57.children at the age of 11 and there will be a debate in this place on

:35:58. > :36:01.April 25. Recently, Madam Deputy Speaker, I held two health summits

:36:02. > :36:06.in Southend bringing all the health providers together. My sense is that

:36:07. > :36:10.they are not necessarily working that well together, and certainly

:36:11. > :36:14.senior management in one two areas needs to do far better than they are

:36:15. > :36:18.doing at the moment so I hope that the health summits will see the

:36:19. > :36:24.quality of patient care and the delivery of health services in

:36:25. > :36:27.Southend improve, just as the local authorities should be working

:36:28. > :36:35.closely with all the health providers, shown by the mid and

:36:36. > :36:39.South Essex success regime. Fuel poverty, I raised this this morning

:36:40. > :36:45.and did a 32nd appearance on Panorama this week because I piloted

:36:46. > :36:49.the warmer homes and energy conservation Bill 15 years ago and

:36:50. > :36:53.it's a disappointment that fuel poverty hasn't been eliminated. I do

:36:54. > :36:57.urge ministers to do all they possibly can to change this

:36:58. > :37:03.situation. Like all members I have some wonderful local companies, an

:37:04. > :37:08.independent company has been trading for almost ten years and now employs

:37:09. > :37:12.25 staff across four branches. By recently visited their newly

:37:13. > :37:16.finished offices which indicates the confidence that they have, and their

:37:17. > :37:21.company has been awarded employer of the year and apprentice of the and I

:37:22. > :37:25.also attended the opening of the new removals business and celebrated

:37:26. > :37:28.with another company that had been in business, for 40 years. So I am

:37:29. > :37:34.delighted that the government included in the budget one measure

:37:35. > :37:38.that was popular and have decided to change the business rate on small

:37:39. > :37:47.outlets. That will make a huge difference. Recently I went with an

:37:48. > :37:53.all-party delegation to see it first hand, not what celebrities saying to

:37:54. > :37:57.it like saying is happening and the Maldives but what is happening. We

:37:58. > :38:01.went everywhere. We saw the present where the former ex-president is

:38:02. > :38:05.being held at the moment. The all-party parliamentary group had a

:38:06. > :38:08.meeting yesterday. A report was published. I do hope the government

:38:09. > :38:15.will look carefully at its findings. This week, and also the all-party

:38:16. > :38:20.alimentary group on the Philippines and I met a wonderful woman who is

:38:21. > :38:26.the founder of the National women's coalition, and she was into mental

:38:27. > :38:29.in helping to respond -- instrumental in helping to respond

:38:30. > :38:33.to the terrible disaster in the Philippines. The government have

:38:34. > :38:36.done an excellent job there and I urge full support for the

:38:37. > :38:43.humanitarian summit coming up in Istanbul. Am delighted that Chase

:38:44. > :38:47.high school, Westcliff high school for girls, they are getting more

:38:48. > :38:54.money. I end with presumably joining with everyone at celebrating the

:38:55. > :38:59.Queen's 90th birthday next year. We had a president from 1997 to 2010,

:39:00. > :39:06.for ten years anyway, and it wasn't a great success. I think the Queen

:39:07. > :39:13.is fantastic, and I congratulate one colleague, whose idea it was to have

:39:14. > :39:19.the project Clean For The Queen, I think she is an example to each and

:39:20. > :39:22.every one of us when she made the broadcast and said, however long her

:39:23. > :39:26.life is, she would do everything she could for her nation. I wish you

:39:27. > :39:37.Madam Deputy Speaker and everyone else very happiest. Mark Williams.

:39:38. > :39:42.Madam Deputy Speaker, firstly, thank you for initiating this debate, the

:39:43. > :39:50.honourable member for Harrow East. This is a general debate if only

:39:51. > :39:57.because we did not hear at Christmas time about the south-west, and from

:39:58. > :40:02.the member from South West, I'm reminded every week as a possible

:40:03. > :40:07.post-office run by his excellent cousin, Miss Janice Pocock. He has

:40:08. > :40:21.spoken on many issues. I will speak on one. An issue of concern to me

:40:22. > :40:25.and one particular constituent of mine, Mr Michael Afonso, and his

:40:26. > :40:28.dealings with the Home Office. It is a personal story and I will use my

:40:29. > :40:36.time to tell his story and the nature of it. He was born in

:40:37. > :40:42.Tanzania, has lived here for 30 years and is married to British

:40:43. > :40:45.natural and his concerns over his British citizenship are not yet

:40:46. > :40:48.resolved. I believe that there are many other cases of British National

:40:49. > :40:52.is with spices from overseas who have sought British citizenship for

:40:53. > :40:59.years and perhaps do not fit the conventional mould of immigration

:41:00. > :41:02.cases. Mr Afonso was born in Tanzania, in 1969, and not long

:41:03. > :41:06.after his birth he was taken in by a lady who raised him as her own and

:41:07. > :41:14.he lived happily with her family the first 15 years of his life in the

:41:15. > :41:18.foothills of Mount Kilimanjaro. In 1984 his biological mother visited

:41:19. > :41:23.their relationship was rekindled and they came to Britain, she was

:41:24. > :41:28.married to a British citizen. Michael remembers arriving in the UK

:41:29. > :41:33.and being questioned by border agency officials at the airport and

:41:34. > :41:37.then moved to Kettering and was established with the family of his

:41:38. > :41:40.biological mother and their new husband although the adoption by the

:41:41. > :41:45.new stepfather seems never to have taken place. Despite the challenges

:41:46. > :41:52.of moving to a new country, he did settle in, but in 1986 problems

:41:53. > :42:01.emerged in the family and through no fault of his own he was taken into

:42:02. > :42:05.care and an offhand denture social services, he said at the time he

:42:06. > :42:09.wanted to return to Tanzania as the lady he saw as his mother, although

:42:10. > :42:13.the court said that because he had never been legally adopted he had to

:42:14. > :42:17.stay in this country, the country of his biological mother. That is, this

:42:18. > :42:22.country, even though he had been removed from her care. He spent some

:42:23. > :42:27.time at a children's home in Kettering and was subsequently sent

:42:28. > :42:32.to foster care. Aged 18 he moved out and spent years living

:42:33. > :42:35.independently, went to college, got an NVQ in painting and decorating

:42:36. > :42:39.and lived in the area for many years. Some years later the lady who

:42:40. > :42:44.had brought him up in Tanzania moved to the UK and settled in Wales,

:42:45. > :42:50.where he moved to, settling in my constituency. By 2008, he had met

:42:51. > :42:55.his future wife Sian, and they set up home together in the Ceredigion

:42:56. > :43:00.constituency. Although troubles arose when they decided to get

:43:01. > :43:07.married. As he had entered the UK as a miner from Tanzania he held no

:43:08. > :43:10.official paperwork himself. He recalled a birth certificate and a

:43:11. > :43:16.Tanzania passport yet while living in Kettering years before moving to

:43:17. > :43:20.Wales, a fire at his flat had destroyed his paperwork including

:43:21. > :43:25.his passport. At the time Sian and Michael Wasley king marriage they

:43:26. > :43:28.were not able to get married without proof of his nationality -- that is

:43:29. > :43:34.when they were seeking marriage. That is when I first got involved in

:43:35. > :43:37.his case. We struggled to find any information from anywhere, any

:43:38. > :43:41.official documentation, about his life. We made inquiries of

:43:42. > :43:46.Nottinghamshire social services to find out if anything had been done

:43:47. > :43:51.about citizenship under his care and to the Tanzania embassy to ask about

:43:52. > :43:53.his passport, we used various Freedom of information requests and

:43:54. > :44:01.yet we hit brick wall after brick wall.

:44:02. > :44:06.There was no information as to the date or where he was sent and that

:44:07. > :44:13.lack of information has subsequently been acknowledged by the Home

:44:14. > :44:18.Office. It seemed as though the aspirations for marriage would not

:44:19. > :44:22.be realised. But the rules did change so in October 2011 the couple

:44:23. > :44:28.were married. All seemed well, life settled down, the couple bought a

:44:29. > :44:31.home, Michael was heavily involved in our community and very much a

:44:32. > :44:37.valued member of the community, now elected community councillor. I

:44:38. > :44:41.would suggest the identikit community activist. He became

:44:42. > :44:51.manager of the local British Red Cross shop. At that point problems

:44:52. > :44:54.emerged as, not unreasonably, he started to get requests from the

:44:55. > :44:58.human resources department to prove his eligibility to work within the

:44:59. > :45:04.United Kingdom. Something he had come across in all the years

:45:05. > :45:07.previously. As a non-British citizen he requires biometric residence

:45:08. > :45:11.card. He contacted the Home Office and was told he would need proof he

:45:12. > :45:17.resided in the UK with no lengthy times away. Of course he hadn't been

:45:18. > :45:20.away because he hadn't a passport. For someone unaware of that

:45:21. > :45:23.stipulation it was very difficult to prove but we had some successes in

:45:24. > :45:29.finding some information from the health board in Northamptonshire and

:45:30. > :45:37.my own health board. And Michael was assiduous in keeping records, P 45

:45:38. > :45:41.and P 60s. He set about applying for a no limit application. They paid

:45:42. > :45:48.the cost to go to the previous service centre in Cardiff, spending

:45:49. > :45:51.?104 on the form and ?400 for the privilege of priority centre

:45:52. > :45:56.meeting. The couple really thought they were on the cusp of securing

:45:57. > :46:00.which is citizenship. Despite the gathering of the documentation they

:46:01. > :46:03.had, including they had at long last notice of care proceedings that he

:46:04. > :46:08.had been removed from his biological mother's care. They were told that

:46:09. > :46:11.because he had no information on self, no proof of entering the