13/04/2016

:00:12. > :00:20.Point of order. On the 2nd of December in this House, the Prime

:00:21. > :00:25.Minister, during the debate about Syria, promised that there would be

:00:26. > :00:31.regular quarterly progress reports to this House about the progress,

:00:32. > :00:36.military action against Daesh. Mr Speaker, I think the longest water

:00:37. > :00:42.could last 92 days, I think it is now 133 days since that pledge was

:00:43. > :00:46.made. Mr Speaker, have you had any indication from the Government that

:00:47. > :00:50.they intend making this quarterly progress report so that we can see

:00:51. > :00:54.what action is being taken and whether it has been effective? I am

:00:55. > :01:01.grateful to the honourable gentleman on both his point of order and his

:01:02. > :01:04.advance notice of it. The question of how the Government fulfils a

:01:05. > :01:10.commitment to the House is principally a matter for ministers.

:01:11. > :01:14.What I would say to that honourable gentleman is that having take some

:01:15. > :01:20.taking a keen interest in this matter, he will know that the report

:01:21. > :01:25.was presented to the House in December, and that a second report,

:01:26. > :01:30.which I think was billed or tagged as a quarterly report, was then

:01:31. > :01:34.provided by the Secretary of State for International Development on the

:01:35. > :01:37.8th of February. If memory serves me correctly, it was a written report.

:01:38. > :01:45.It may well be that the honourable gentleman and some other members

:01:46. > :01:49.were hoping for or even expecting an oral report. That is however not a

:01:50. > :01:53.matter for the chair. The only report I would gently make, and the

:01:54. > :01:57.Government, to be fair, have made a very large number of statements to

:01:58. > :02:02.the House over the last few years, that is not a matter of speculation

:02:03. > :02:07.but of fact. As the Foreign Secretary himself had unavoidably to

:02:08. > :02:12.be absent from the Foreign Office questions yesterday, prompting a

:02:13. > :02:16.modicum of comment from his own side, though he had done me the

:02:17. > :02:21.courtesy of notifying me beforehand, it might be thought a good idea for

:02:22. > :02:25.a subsequent report to be provided by the Foreign Secretary to the

:02:26. > :02:30.House, and if there is an appetite for that report to be oral, I know

:02:31. > :02:34.it will be delivered by the Foreign Secretary with great dexterity. It

:02:35. > :02:39.will also have the additional advantage, I say in inverted commas,

:02:40. > :02:45.as a matter for the House to decide, of pleasing and honourable gentleman

:02:46. > :02:50.from the Liberal Democrat benches. Point of order, Mr Paul Blomfield.

:02:51. > :02:54.'S, you will be aware of the decision by the business, innovation

:02:55. > :03:00.and skills department to close its Sheffield policy office. Despite

:03:01. > :03:04.repeated requests at the Select Committee for the department to

:03:05. > :03:07.share the figures on which the decision was based, the permanent

:03:08. > :03:14.Secretary told the committee, and I quote, I do not think I can point

:03:15. > :03:20.you want -- one specific document that covers this issue. In answer to

:03:21. > :03:24.the question about the costs at the Public Accounts Committee, he said

:03:25. > :03:31.the decision was, again I quote, not based on individual cost when a fit

:03:32. > :03:38.analysis of a static closure. Spurs, I have had access to a document

:03:39. > :03:42.entitled Finance and headcount outlying which does specifically

:03:43. > :03:47.cover the Sheffield position, and is in the permanent Secretary's words,

:03:48. > :03:51.an individual analysis of a static closure. Could you therefore clarify

:03:52. > :03:56.whether the permanent Secretary's words do constitute misleading the

:03:57. > :04:00.House, and can you advise me on how I can get the information in front

:04:01. > :04:03.of the two committees that have requested it? I am grateful to the

:04:04. > :04:08.honourable gentleman, but my instinct of reaction to him is that

:04:09. > :04:13.the exegesis of what is said by Government, including by permanent

:04:14. > :04:17.secretaries, and adjudication upon it, not proper matters for the

:04:18. > :04:21.chair. I think it is safer to keep out of that. It may will be that it

:04:22. > :04:25.is the subject of some dispute and the honourable gentleman is

:04:26. > :04:28.dissatisfied. It is really however for the committees concerned, I must

:04:29. > :04:30.underline this, to press the committee is concerned, I must

:04:31. > :04:34.underline this, depressingly formation they require. -- to press

:04:35. > :04:39.for the information. If they are dissatisfied with what they have had

:04:40. > :04:42.or not had, they should persist, and there are well-established

:04:43. > :04:45.procedures for doing so, although we have a feeling that by putting his

:04:46. > :04:50.concerns on the record he may well find that the Government is able and

:04:51. > :04:56.inclined to offer the information that the Doak requires. Point of

:04:57. > :05:00.order. Thank you, and apologies for not giving advance notice because I

:05:01. > :05:05.had hoped it would be raised in prime ministers questions. On the

:05:06. > :05:08.28th of October 2015, in a letter to my right, ball friend the Prime

:05:09. > :05:15.Minister, Sir John Chilcot said that the Iraqi report would be available,

:05:16. > :05:20.the text of the report will be available on the week commencing the

:05:21. > :05:22.18th of April 2016, at which point it would be passed over to the

:05:23. > :05:28.security services for tracking. Given that that is Monday, I wonder

:05:29. > :05:33.if you have received notice from the Government that they intend to make

:05:34. > :05:38.a statement to the House as to when this long-awaited report will be

:05:39. > :05:43.available. I have received no such indication of an imminent statement.

:05:44. > :05:49.I think that when this issue has been aired in the House, the sense

:05:50. > :05:57.of dissatisfaction across the chamber has been audible, frankly,

:05:58. > :06:04.not just to the chair, but to millions of people throughout the

:06:05. > :06:08.country. It has become exceptionally and excessively protracted. So I

:06:09. > :06:12.understand his frustration, to put it on the record again, and it will

:06:13. > :06:16.have been heard in the appropriate quarters. But have I received

:06:17. > :06:20.indication of a statement? I'm afraid I haven't. If there are no

:06:21. > :06:22.further points of order, perhaps we can come to the ten minute rule

:06:23. > :06:31.motion. Joan Ryan. I would like to eventually be given

:06:32. > :06:35.to bring any bill that require its schedule eight this option payments

:06:36. > :06:39.between Network Rail and train operators to be allocated to

:06:40. > :06:43.specified projects aimed at increasing the quality, value for

:06:44. > :06:47.money and the viability of passenger experience of railway travel and

:06:48. > :06:51.associated services for connected purposes. I am grateful for the

:06:52. > :06:57.opportunity to present this bill to the house today, the purposes of

:06:58. > :07:02.which are threefold. Firstly, it seeks to improve services on offer

:07:03. > :07:07.to rail commuters across the country. Secondly, it aims to ensure

:07:08. > :07:10.millions of pounds of taxpayer money is directed toward benefiting

:07:11. > :07:15.passengers rather than lining the pockets of train operating

:07:16. > :07:21.companies. Thirdly, the bill seeks to shine a light on a part of the

:07:22. > :07:25.rail industry which is a bewildering in its complexity and open it up to

:07:26. > :07:30.greater public scrutiny and accountability. This bill would

:07:31. > :07:36.create a responsibility for the regulator to guarantee any net

:07:37. > :07:39.income made by train operators from schedule eight payments and

:07:40. > :07:46.mortality is used to fund overall passenger benefits on the network.

:07:47. > :07:49.It is important to note this bill is not intended to stop or replace

:07:50. > :07:55.current compensation arrangements between train operators and

:07:56. > :07:59.passengers was reimburse passengers for delays. Mr Speaker, rail

:08:00. > :08:05.commuters in Enfield and throughout the country are getting a raw deal.

:08:06. > :08:10.They are paying sky-high ticket prices for a rock bottom surface.

:08:11. > :08:14.They are currently having to endure the worst performers in terms of

:08:15. > :08:21.train punctuality for almost a decade. In 2014-15, 47 million

:08:22. > :08:25.passenger journeys on the railways were either cancelled or delayed.

:08:26. > :08:31.Members of the public are shocked when they learn train operators can

:08:32. > :08:35.actually make a profit from Network Rail failures. If trains are delayed

:08:36. > :08:42.or cancelled and the responsibility lies with Network Rail, for instance

:08:43. > :08:51.when work or power fails, the Network Rail compensation payments

:08:52. > :08:53.to train operators. These are what is known as internet industry

:08:54. > :08:57.arrangements or schedule eight this option payments. Train operators are

:08:58. > :09:01.not obliged to reinvest this money in services for passengers and the

:09:02. > :09:05.payments received from Network Rail bear no relation to the passenger

:09:06. > :09:10.compensation schemes between the train operators and their customers.

:09:11. > :09:14.Only a fraction of what train operators receive an payments from

:09:15. > :09:19.Network Rail is ever passed on to commuters whose journeys have been

:09:20. > :09:23.disrupted. Passengers are certainly not helped to claim what they are

:09:24. > :09:29.owed for delays given a train operators make it so difficult for

:09:30. > :09:33.them to access compensation. It is really important that passengers are

:09:34. > :09:41.made more aware of the rights so I applaud the recent work of Which and

:09:42. > :09:46.their Make A Real Refunds Easier campaign for putting pressure on

:09:47. > :09:50.train operators to make the process simpler, fairer and more accessible

:09:51. > :09:54.to commuters. I call on the Government to bring rail travel

:09:55. > :09:57.within the EU consumer rights act. The unfairness of the current

:09:58. > :10:01.structure of the railway compensation payments is rarely

:10:02. > :10:05.brought to light when we consider how much money is involved and how

:10:06. > :10:11.poorly passengers are being compensated compared to train

:10:12. > :10:14.operators. I commend the work of my honourable friend for nothing come

:10:15. > :10:20.south and the shadow transport team who have recently exposed this

:10:21. > :10:28.issue. The analysis shows that between 2010 and 2015 Network Rail

:10:29. > :10:33.paid out ?575 million to train operators in schedule eight

:10:34. > :10:38.payments. Over the same period train operators only provided compensation

:10:39. > :10:43.to passengers to the tune of ?73 million. This is a compensation gap

:10:44. > :10:50.of more than half ?1 billion. A substantial boost to train operating

:10:51. > :10:53.companies profit margins. I accept train operators should be able to

:10:54. > :10:56.cover costs of loss of revenue the in car which arise from the

:10:57. > :11:03.unplanned delays caused by Network Rail. But what they should not be

:11:04. > :11:08.able to do is make a profit over and above these costs from train delays

:11:09. > :11:15.and cancellations. That is just plain wrong. From 2014-15 the

:11:16. > :11:21.Government provided a grant payment to Network Rail of ?3.8 billion.

:11:22. > :11:29.Therefore, to add insult to injury, a significant amount of taxpayer

:11:30. > :11:33.money flows from Network Rail back to private train operating

:11:34. > :11:37.companies, many of them ultimately owned by foreign governments under

:11:38. > :11:41.schedule eight payments. It is scandalous that a system can be

:11:42. > :11:46.designed in such a way that the very people using the rail network and

:11:47. > :11:50.who are most affected by poor standard of service on offer, Sachs

:11:51. > :11:55.being commuters, and entered contributing to train operators

:11:56. > :12:02.profits, out of the own misery. How can this be right? Where is the

:12:03. > :12:05.accountability for the fear being taxpaying public regarding how the

:12:06. > :12:13.system operates and where this money goes? The real expert, Kristian

:12:14. > :12:18.Walmart, has said, in an ideal world train operators would only get back

:12:19. > :12:23.the actual money that unexpected delays cost them, however the level

:12:24. > :12:29.is determined by an economic model but only vaguely reflects the impact

:12:30. > :12:34.of the least felt I passengers. So vaguely to be meaningless. He goes

:12:35. > :12:38.on to say that the current system, does the railways and no credit and

:12:39. > :12:44.create the perverse incentives that plague the industry. I could not

:12:45. > :12:48.agree more. This situation must change. We need a way of linking

:12:49. > :12:52.schedule eight payments to benefits which improve customer experience of

:12:53. > :12:58.railways and this bill will make that happen. I want the rail

:12:59. > :13:01.regulator to be given the power to ensure train operating companies

:13:02. > :13:06.have to provide a full disclosure or any net profit they might make from

:13:07. > :13:11.schedule eight payments. This information should be made available

:13:12. > :13:15.to the public and with rigorous monitoring by the regulator that

:13:16. > :13:20.money should then be put towards improving customer experience and

:13:21. > :13:25.giving them a high value service. These measures could include

:13:26. > :13:29.retaining ticket office staff, facilitating easier access into a

:13:30. > :13:33.station platform and trains, free Wi-Fi on trains or using the money

:13:34. > :13:38.towards paying for a guarantee that trend will not miss start out, a

:13:39. > :13:42.particular frustration for a number of my constituents. These are just a

:13:43. > :13:46.few suggestions and I think it would be a very good idea to consult

:13:47. > :13:51.passengers on the improvements they want to see to their services,

:13:52. > :13:55.should this bill become law. It is clear from recent evidence the rail

:13:56. > :13:59.regulator understands many of these issues I am looking to address what

:14:00. > :14:05.this bill. At the end of last year the regulator and Network Rail every

:14:06. > :14:10.a ?4 million real reparation fund to benefit commuters directly affected

:14:11. > :14:15.by poor performance on routes provided by pens like, Southern and

:14:16. > :14:19.Gatwick Express services. By increasing the staff at stations,

:14:20. > :14:23.employing more track workers to deal with disruptions and introducing

:14:24. > :14:28.incident management software, to resolve issues on routes more

:14:29. > :14:33.quickly, the regulators sought to enhance services for passengers

:14:34. > :14:35.affected by poor performance. I want a permanent rather than temporary

:14:36. > :14:40.scheme in place which can benefit all passengers across the country.

:14:41. > :14:45.However the real reparation fund example is an important first step

:14:46. > :14:50.by the regulator, and what it has set out to achieve and reinforces

:14:51. > :14:54.the fundamental principle which lies at the heart of this bill before you

:14:55. > :14:57.today. Improving rail passenger services should be a top priority

:14:58. > :15:04.for Network Rail and train operators. Commuters should not be

:15:05. > :15:10.left waiting on platforms whilst train operators pick up big profits

:15:11. > :15:13.from the rail industry's complex, or pick an unfair compensation

:15:14. > :15:17.arrangements. Mr Speaker, I would like to thank my colleagues across

:15:18. > :15:22.the house who have agreed to sponsor my motion today. This support shows

:15:23. > :15:29.the extent to which we all want to see the rail industry reformed for

:15:30. > :15:32.the benefit of passengers, our constituents, and it is for all

:15:33. > :15:39.these reasons I commend this bill to the house. The question is the

:15:40. > :15:42.honourable member have leave to bring in the bill. As many as are of

:15:43. > :15:49.the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no. I think the ayes have

:15:50. > :16:01.it. Who will prepare and bring in the bill? From break, Julie Elliott,

:16:02. > :16:07.Louise Almond, Frank Field, Calvert Hopkins, Peter Keil, Caroline Lucas,

:16:08. > :16:10.Siobhan McDonald, will cleanse, Henry Smith, Charles Walker and

:16:11. > :16:51.myself, served. Improvement of rail passenger

:16:52. > :16:59.services use of destruction payment bill. Second reading, what they?

:17:00. > :17:06.22nd of April 20 16. 22nd of April 20 16. Thank you. We now come to the

:17:07. > :17:14.first of our two opposition the debates. The motion is in the name

:17:15. > :17:18.of the Leader of the Opposition and to move the motion I caught the

:17:19. > :17:26.Shadow Chancellor of page at that, Mr John McDonnell. I wish to move

:17:27. > :17:33.the motion that spans and might name and that of my honourable friends. I

:17:34. > :17:37.see the Chancellor is again absent to date much as I look forward to

:17:38. > :17:42.seeing the baby as members of his team I just wonder is there a

:17:43. > :17:48.specific reason for him not being here. -- seeing the members of this

:17:49. > :17:59.team. Is it critical? Can I then say to him in terms of his attendance at

:18:00. > :18:03.the IMF, maybe he wrote the IMF report from yesterday which

:18:04. > :18:07.downgraded the growth expectations of our economy and maybe think again

:18:08. > :18:12.with regard to the policy he is pursuing which failed to in our

:18:13. > :18:16.economy, infrastructure, skills and new technology we need to compete in

:18:17. > :18:21.the world market. Maybe we can send them a letter as he was passing

:18:22. > :18:25.through he can say hello to the chamber. Thank you very much. On tax

:18:26. > :18:31.avoidance and evasion we must move the debate on to the issues of them

:18:32. > :18:36.and effectiveness of our tax system. I say to the house we need to do so

:18:37. > :18:41.as constructively as we can. The pick of documents from Panama amours

:18:42. > :18:46.Mossack Fonseca has provoked an extraordinary public discussion. An

:18:47. > :18:52.entire head and Walters limbo until light. What is rebuilding is

:18:53. > :18:56.profoundly unsettling we know that Mossack Fonseca sat at the centre of

:18:57. > :19:01.the vast web of tax evasion and avoidance. The world's super rich

:19:02. > :19:05.commission its services to hide their income and wealth from the

:19:06. > :19:15.public eyes. Some had plainly criminal intentions. Money from the

:19:16. > :19:18.robbery was laundered through a shell company set up by Mossack

:19:19. > :19:23.Fonseca and a Mexican drug baron held his money in a shell company

:19:24. > :19:28.also established by Mossack Fonseca. Thank you for giving way. You raise

:19:29. > :19:33.some very disturbing point about Vladimir Putin and the Russian

:19:34. > :19:37.regime. Can he conform with the shadow Treasury spokesman raised any

:19:38. > :19:42.of those issues with regards the Russian administration when he was

:19:43. > :19:47.originally on Roger Today? Even if not criminals many of Mossack

:19:48. > :19:51.Fonseca's clients, if not all, happy strong intention of avoiding or

:19:52. > :19:59.evading taxes otherwise due them. -- had the intention. Would he agree

:20:00. > :20:06.with me that this is a real issue for others in London, particularly

:20:07. > :20:10.at the impact these shady characters have on our London property market

:20:11. > :20:14.and the tragedy that people cannot get onto the housing ladder who are

:20:15. > :20:18.Londoners and wish to remain in London and must move outside because

:20:19. > :20:25.these criminal elements of messing up the international system? It

:20:26. > :20:30.confirms the need for open and public disclosure of beneficiary

:20:31. > :20:35.ownership and beneficial interest because as the honourable lady nose

:20:36. > :20:39.and every London MP knows, the speculation of property in the

:20:40. > :20:42.capital city is denying many of our constituents a decent roof over

:20:43. > :20:50.their heads. If I can press on and will give way shortly. Mossack

:20:51. > :20:53.Fonseca exploited the presence of loopholes and entire jurisdictions

:20:54. > :20:59.that favourite secrecy and minimal taxation. We can expect further use

:21:00. > :21:03.in the next few weeks as the work investigating this continues.

:21:04. > :21:09.Yesterday the Panama headquarters of Mossack Fonseca was raided but ten

:21:10. > :21:13.days since the initial week I believe the UK offices have not been

:21:14. > :21:17.raided. This is despite concerns being raised by the firm's founder

:21:18. > :21:24.of the lack of due diligence the UK Ops is performed and the clear legal

:21:25. > :21:29.precedent for UK authorities to intervene. There may be more

:21:30. > :21:33.revelations to come, set to publish individual reputations. I'll put it

:21:34. > :21:37.mildly, the bright minister has done himself no favours of the last ten

:21:38. > :21:41.days. A lesson for the future is when asked a straight question to

:21:42. > :21:46.answer straightforwardly and straightaway. The bright Minister

:21:47. > :21:47.could and should have come clean about his relationship to Blairmore

:21:48. > :22:00.Holdings far earlier. Does he regret the support that he

:22:01. > :22:05.gave to the IRA, who are still laundering money and avoiding taxes

:22:06. > :22:10.in Northern Ireland, and yet in the past he supported their activities?

:22:11. > :22:15.I have never given the IRA support for laundering money or any other

:22:16. > :22:22.activity. Wherever laundering is, it is illegal and it should be tackled,

:22:23. > :22:27.and I welcome his intervention. Having spent ten years as an aid

:22:28. > :22:31.worker, I am acutely aware of the millions of pounds that are lost to

:22:32. > :22:36.development in poor countries as a result of these tax havens. Does my

:22:37. > :22:40.honourable friend agree that ahead of May's anti-corruption Summit in

:22:41. > :22:44.London, the Prime Minister needs to do far more to reassure the House

:22:45. > :22:48.that he will accelerate his efforts to persuade British Overseas

:22:49. > :22:56.Territories to mirror the UK's welcome move and establish a

:22:57. > :23:00.register of ownership? The issue of a public register is critical to any

:23:01. > :23:04.measures of a future, because in that way people can be held to

:23:05. > :23:08.account in the developing world where they are denying resources to

:23:09. > :23:14.their country. I will come back to that one. It is absolutely crucial

:23:15. > :23:18.that we do have this transparency across the Crown Dependencies and

:23:19. > :23:23.Overseas Territories, because, without that, doesn't it just

:23:24. > :23:27.further reinforce the message to our constituents that their rose one tax

:23:28. > :23:34.rule for the rich and powerful, and another for everyone else? The key

:23:35. > :23:36.issues in this coming period, and I think across the whole of the House

:23:37. > :23:40.we have to re-establish credibility we have to re-establish credibility

:23:41. > :23:47.is about taxation system, which has been so badly damaged by the

:23:48. > :23:52.activities. He has called for greater transparency from the Crown

:23:53. > :23:57.Dependencies. Can he therefore explain why this is the first time

:23:58. > :24:02.he has made such a call and why he did not make such calls in the 13

:24:03. > :24:09.years of the last Labour government? Can I ask the honourable gentleman

:24:10. > :24:14.if he looks back... Yes, I am, calm down, calm down. If he looks back on

:24:15. > :24:19.my record over the last 18 years in Parliament, I was one of the first

:24:20. > :24:22.MPs to set up tax justice meetings in this House that brought the tax

:24:23. > :24:27.Justice network and did the research. I have commissioned a

:24:28. > :24:32.review of HMRC's activities, including tax avoidance and tax

:24:33. > :24:35.evasion. I understand his concerns, I worked on a cross-party basis on

:24:36. > :24:40.this issue for a number of issues and have been critical of successive

:24:41. > :24:43.governments not doing enough. On the issue of tax burners, does he agree

:24:44. > :24:46.with me that what the Panama Papers have revealed is that there is a

:24:47. > :24:50.channelling of money for the rope bridge, and the poor have to pay

:24:51. > :24:54.their taxes? This comes on top budget that we have just had where

:24:55. > :24:58.capital gains have been cut for the top 3% while taken from the

:24:59. > :25:06.disabled. This shows that we are not all in it together. I think what

:25:07. > :25:10.people found extremely disappointing in the Budget debate that we had was

:25:11. > :25:14.at the same time as the honourable gentleman said, at the same time as

:25:15. > :25:19.capital gains taxes being cut, that is being paid for by cuts in

:25:20. > :25:24.benefits for people disabilities. It demonstrated most starkly that we

:25:25. > :25:28.are not all in this together, maybe from this debate, maybe from these

:25:29. > :25:32.revelations, we may be able to start the process and steps towards a fair

:25:33. > :25:38.taxation system which runs our public services effectively. Thank

:25:39. > :25:41.you to the Shadow Chancellor for giving way committee has been

:25:42. > :25:45.generous with his time. Last night, the all-party group had an excellent

:25:46. > :25:50.meeting with a Guardian journalist on the campaign which exposed this

:25:51. > :25:54.gamble. In terms of the openness and transparency, that could be achieved

:25:55. > :25:58.quite simply by a council from the UK Government, it is a matter of

:25:59. > :26:03.will for this UK Government. My honourable friend the shadow leader

:26:04. > :26:08.of the is made that point last week, and demonstrated example after

:26:09. > :26:12.example of where that has taken place. The order has been used by

:26:13. > :26:15.successive governments very effectively. Again, I am bewildered

:26:16. > :26:20.why that has not been taken up by the Government at the moment. If I

:26:21. > :26:23.can press on, can I press on a little bit? I am at the third page

:26:24. > :26:27.and this is getting ridiculous. If I could just pass on a little bit I

:26:28. > :26:32.can get back to the honourable gentleman. I have given away a fair

:26:33. > :26:35.amount, as the Speaker knows I am generous but I do not want to be

:26:36. > :26:39.speaking for too long. Can I just say this, even today we have not

:26:40. > :26:44.seen the prime and as a's full tax return or that of the Chancellor. I

:26:45. > :26:47.think it is important that actually that is established. The Prime

:26:48. > :26:50.Minister established the principle that I advocated three months ago

:26:51. > :26:53.that the Prime Minister and the Chancellor, the Leader of the

:26:54. > :27:02.Opposition and the Shadow Chancellor should publish their tax returns,

:27:03. > :27:04.that hasn't happened. What we are confronted with today is a far

:27:05. > :27:07.bigger issue than any individual. At the centre of the allegations as a

:27:08. > :27:10.single issue, the fundamental problem is not tax avoidance by this

:27:11. > :27:15.individual or that country, these are the symptoms of the disease. The

:27:16. > :27:18.fundamental issue, the corruption of democracy itself. At the centre of

:27:19. > :27:22.our parliamentary system is the idea that those who levy taxes on people

:27:23. > :27:27.are accountable to the people. If those making decisions on our

:27:28. > :27:31.taxation system are believed to be avoiding paying their own taxes it

:27:32. > :27:35.undermines the whole credibility of our system. The common understanding

:27:36. > :27:38.is also that those who live here and benefit from public services will

:27:39. > :27:45.make a proportionate contribution towards them. Well, I'd better give

:27:46. > :27:52.way for this honourable friend verse otherwise he will be disappointed. I

:27:53. > :27:57.am grateful to him. To hark back to the point, the council that he just

:27:58. > :28:02.referred to, was he surprised to hear that his friend and leader, the

:28:03. > :28:06.member for Islington North, once described the use of orders in

:28:07. > :28:09.Council by the last Labour government is extremely undemocratic

:28:10. > :28:14.and in fact medieval. Does he think that the Leader of the Opposition is

:28:15. > :28:21.a Johnny come lately to this issue? It depends upon the issue that is

:28:22. > :28:25.being addressed. And sometimes, harking back to the medieval period

:28:26. > :28:29.may be the most effective way of dealing with these problems. If I

:28:30. > :28:36.can press on, I have given way to the honourable gentleman and I will

:28:37. > :28:39.come back to him. Let me just repeat that point, the common understanding

:28:40. > :28:43.is that those who live here and benefit from public services will

:28:44. > :28:48.make a proportionate contribution towards them. The level of taxation

:28:49. > :28:50.may vary, and sometimes it is higher and sometimes lower, but because we

:28:51. > :28:54.have a shared sense of fairness we expect those with the broadest

:28:55. > :28:58.shoulders to carry the greatest burden in taxes. What we have seen

:28:59. > :29:02.over the last 30 years is the growth of wealth inequality on such a scale

:29:03. > :29:06.that it has undermined the basic principle of democracy. Figures from

:29:07. > :29:10.Oxfam suggest that the richest 1% on more than the rest of the world

:29:11. > :29:14.combined. Let me press on a little bit and I will come back, I promise

:29:15. > :29:18.the honourable gentleman. Wards of assets and property and financial

:29:19. > :29:22.wealth have been built up. On the best available measures we have, the

:29:23. > :29:27.levels of income inequality in Britain today are climbing as high

:29:28. > :29:33.as they were before the First World War. The share of income going to

:29:34. > :29:37.the super risk has risen through the last decade is called the super

:29:38. > :29:41.rich. We are returning to the levels of inequality that we had before

:29:42. > :29:46.women had provoked and the development of universal education

:29:47. > :29:49.and health care, the world before democracy brought this under control

:29:50. > :29:55.and created a more Humane Society for the majority. The world of the

:29:56. > :30:01.Rockefellers and barons over what we are returning to. Immense, almost

:30:02. > :30:05.unimaginable wealth for a gilded elite but in security for growing

:30:06. > :30:11.numbers. Much of that wealth is now held offshore in secretive,

:30:12. > :30:14.unaccountable tax opens. The last estimate was $21 trillion,

:30:15. > :30:21.equivalent one third of the global GDP, is estimated to be hidden

:30:22. > :30:27.taxation systems. If taxed fairly, it would raise ?188 billion per year

:30:28. > :30:31.in extra taxation. This is not about a few families looking, and I quote,

:30:32. > :30:36.to minimise their tax bill, as the member for games but kind, it is

:30:37. > :30:42.systematic. It is an offshore world operating parallel to the rest --

:30:43. > :30:46.the world the rest of us living. It has been instructed piece by piece

:30:47. > :30:51.by multinational corporations and the super-rich. Are raided by shady

:30:52. > :30:58.offshore operations like Mossack Fonseca, and we have to be honest

:30:59. > :31:04.about this, also supposedly reputable accountancy firms here in

:31:05. > :31:09.London playing their part. PwC have apparently aided tax avoidance on an

:31:10. > :31:15.industrial scale to advise the businesses on avoiding tax in

:31:16. > :31:20.African countries, Ernst Young act as tax advisers to Facebook, Apple

:31:21. > :31:25.and Google. Last month, KPMG had one of its tax avoidance schemes

:31:26. > :31:28.declared illegal by the High Court. Altogether, the big four accountancy

:31:29. > :31:35.firms in this country hide at least ?2 billion annually from their tax

:31:36. > :31:39.operations, but it isn't just them. Bank headquarters operating in

:31:40. > :31:43.London have been proficient in directing their funds through

:31:44. > :31:46.Mossack Fonseca's shell companies. HSBC and its affiliates created more

:31:47. > :31:54.offshore companies through Mossack Fonseca than any other bank. Over

:31:55. > :31:59.2300 were created in total. A subsidiary of RBS created over 500

:32:00. > :32:04.offshore companies through its subsidiary in Jersey. Supposedly

:32:05. > :32:08.reputable companies are aiding and abetting the systematic abuse of our

:32:09. > :32:13.tax system. And we should be clear about this. The City of London is

:32:14. > :32:17.now being viewed by many as a tax haven. In the middle of a dense

:32:18. > :32:23.network of havens created for the super-rich to avoid the taxes and

:32:24. > :32:28.the rest of us much pay. I will. Does he accept that in 2010 the

:32:29. > :32:32.richest 1% contributed 25% of all tax, and does he welcomed the fact

:32:33. > :32:38.that the Chancellor revealed in the budget that that has now increased

:32:39. > :32:43.to 28%? It is not just a matter of tax. It is a matter not just of

:32:44. > :32:48.income tax either. Of course I do that, but let's be clear, in terms

:32:49. > :32:52.of distribution or analysis that has been undertaken independently of the

:32:53. > :32:56.Government, Conservative Party policy since 2010 has seen some of

:32:57. > :33:02.the biggest losses for the poorest, not the wealthiest. By 2020, can I

:33:03. > :33:10.does go to the budget group, they put together the tax gains and the

:33:11. > :33:14.benefits cuts, the poorest 10% will lose 21% of their income annually as

:33:15. > :33:21.a result of this Goverment's policy. That is five times more than the top

:33:22. > :33:25.10%. Let me quote this, the IFS analysis clearly shows that this

:33:26. > :33:30.year's Budget hit the poorest 80% harder than the richest. 80% of

:33:31. > :33:37.those cuts fall on whom? Women. I give way. I thank him for giving

:33:38. > :33:42.way, he is generous with his time. As well as appreciating the fact

:33:43. > :33:45.that 1% of the highest income earners pay 28%, would he also

:33:46. > :33:49.consider that this Government since 2010 has taken millions out of tax

:33:50. > :33:55.altogether by increasing the tax allowance up to what is now ?11,500?

:33:56. > :34:03.Let media with the tax threshold issue. The biggest, let me quote, --

:34:04. > :34:08.let media. The biggest gains come from highest earners, they benefit

:34:09. > :34:12.from the tax threshold moves. Let me quote the IFS again and get this

:34:13. > :34:19.clear. The IFS describes the shifting of the packs threshold as a

:34:20. > :34:24.giveaway for the better off. -- tax threshold. If I can press on, I have

:34:25. > :34:33.given way, I know that others want to speak. Let me be clear, this is a

:34:34. > :34:37.world that the super-rich inhabit, they lived by different rules, it is

:34:38. > :34:44.an alien world from the majority of the rest of us. Does he not agree

:34:45. > :34:48.with me that his party's opposition to removal of the family home for

:34:49. > :34:52.income tax threshold actually affects those on the lowest income

:34:53. > :34:56.in London and the south-east, because it will mean that only the

:34:57. > :35:01.wealthy can afford to stay in London when a family home is sold and they

:35:02. > :35:06.have to claim Inheritance Tax? The honourable lady makes an important

:35:07. > :35:10.point. We have supported the increase in tax thresholds to take

:35:11. > :35:14.people out of tax altogether, but the benefits overall have accrued to

:35:15. > :35:18.the highest earners, not the lowest, and we need a more sophisticated

:35:19. > :35:21.system than that. With regards to Inheritance Tax, the cut that was

:35:22. > :35:25.made this time round by the Government benefited the top 5% of

:35:26. > :35:28.the population. There has to be a better way of ensuring people can

:35:29. > :35:32.pass on the wealth to their children rather than benefiting the

:35:33. > :35:36.super-rich. We have to look at that again, I am happy to meet with the

:35:37. > :35:40.honourable lady and discuss this. I thank him for being generous. For

:35:41. > :35:43.those low income families in London and the south-east where their

:35:44. > :35:47.family home has increased beyond recognition who are now asset rich

:35:48. > :35:51.at income poor, how the party opposite going to help them if they

:35:52. > :35:56.don't take them out of Inheritance Tax? The importance for us now is

:35:57. > :36:02.exactly as my honourable friend said, we we build more homes to how

:36:03. > :36:09.those people. It gives access to homeownership to thousands more. Can

:36:10. > :36:15.we put the thresholds to bed once and for all? The people who paid 25%

:36:16. > :36:19.income tax will get a small rise. We, standing here, everyone of us,

:36:20. > :36:23.get a 10% pay rise next year but we will get a much bigger tax rise than

:36:24. > :36:28.ordinary men and women, and that is what we can't understand, because

:36:29. > :36:30.the rich keep getting richer and they keep getting poorer. That is

:36:31. > :36:40.what this debate is about, fairness. We must find a better way concerns

:36:41. > :36:45.over taxation system and benefiting those at the lower end of the scale.

:36:46. > :36:49.Although we are happy with the rise in tax threshold we need a way to

:36:50. > :36:56.compensate that in a more equitable way and again I just seen this dash

:36:57. > :37:02.it is not as seeing this, it is the IFS and many other independent

:37:03. > :37:07.organisations saying this. I don't want to try your patience. Let me

:37:08. > :37:11.say this, it is an alien world for the majority, a world of offshore

:37:12. > :37:15.trusts and legal trickery. It will in which it is perfectly normal to

:37:16. > :37:19.buy property in a London through a company registered in the British

:37:20. > :37:24.Virgin Islands managed by lawyers and Panama with offices in Bermuda.

:37:25. > :37:27.A world in which citizenship and attachment to a country is something

:37:28. > :37:40.to pick choose an dependent on price. The scandal of the non and

:37:41. > :37:43.continuous also -- the scandal of the non-doms continues. Any budget

:37:44. > :37:51.there was an extraordinary Klausner wrote off non-doms an entire capital

:37:52. > :37:57.gains bill, a giveaway to the wealthy. This is not the of's live

:37:58. > :38:07.in. Most of us the other other taxes and contrary to the member from

:38:08. > :38:12.Milton, people don't pay our taxes because we live an hour gone through

:38:13. > :38:17.low achievers, as he described them, we do so because a decent society

:38:18. > :38:25.depends on the contributions of all us. What I've taxes we cannot run

:38:26. > :38:30.the essential public services. We don't have access to the kind of

:38:31. > :38:33.specialist services Mossack Fonseca and other companies provide, we can

:38:34. > :38:39.negotiate with HMI see about when and how it pay our taxes, but for

:38:40. > :38:45.the global elites tax avoidance is as much a part of the world as the

:38:46. > :38:50.yachts and the mansions. This is the world, a corrosive influence on our

:38:51. > :38:54.democracy. The more the super-rich can escape the burden of taxation

:38:55. > :39:00.the more it falls on the rest of us in society. It is morally wrong a

:39:01. > :39:04.billionaire oligarch should be proportionally less in taxes than

:39:05. > :39:09.his migrant cleaner. It is a disgrace a corporation like Google

:39:10. > :39:12.should be no corporation tax for nearly a decade while small

:39:13. > :39:18.businesses are chased for tiny amounts. It is an affront to the

:39:19. > :39:22.basic principles of our democracy large corporations should be able to

:39:23. > :39:27.negotiate Switzer deals with HMRC. It is also corrosion of democracy

:39:28. > :39:37.when there is a revolving door between HMRC, charge of collecting

:39:38. > :39:41.taxes,... It is very unseemly when the Shadow Chancellor is addressing

:39:42. > :39:47.the house for there to be a kind of side exchange between a member of

:39:48. > :39:51.the opposition front bench and the honourable gentleman for South

:39:52. > :39:55.Suffolk. Very unseemly. You mustn't get into this sort of bad habit, his

:39:56. > :39:58.father in law is a distinguished member and he would tell them how to

:39:59. > :40:09.behave properly and I will do so as well. Always best to keep the

:40:10. > :40:13.in-laws on-site, Mr Speaker. It is a disgrace that an immense global

:40:14. > :40:17.corporation like Google pays no corporation tax for a decade while

:40:18. > :40:22.small businesses are chased but Sony and notes and it is an affront to

:40:23. > :40:29.the basic principles of democracy that large corporations to negotiate

:40:30. > :40:34.sweet deals. It is a corrosion of democracy when there is a revolving

:40:35. > :40:37.door existing between HMRC, charge of collecting taxes, and major

:40:38. > :40:43.accountancy firms, whose business depends on minimising taxes. I just

:40:44. > :40:53.say that HMRC's last director went to work for the light. We now find

:40:54. > :40:58.the director to the -- the wretched of executor of each MRC is someone

:40:59. > :41:04.who believes tax, I quote, is a form of legalised extortion. The

:41:05. > :41:08.structures of Government are being bent out of the bag tax avoidance.

:41:09. > :41:12.Decisions are what about the need to protect the interests of the super

:41:13. > :41:17.rich and large corporations. Democracy becomes corroded. Can I

:41:18. > :41:21.also say, in terms of party donations, the party opposite

:41:22. > :41:25.receives more than half of its election campaign funding from hedge

:41:26. > :41:31.funds. You and wondered if leadership made loud and repeated

:41:32. > :41:36.noises about tax of organs get MVP 's and Brussels voted ?6, on

:41:37. > :41:43.instruction from the Treasury, to block EU wide measures on tax

:41:44. > :41:49.avoidance. The EU Commission was lobbied in 2030 to remove offshore

:41:50. > :41:54.trusts from new site EU regulations on avoidance. Its record reveals

:41:55. > :42:00.that the people no longer trust them on this. Not only have the impeded

:42:01. > :42:04.efforts to clamp down on avoidance, the schemes directly implicate

:42:05. > :42:11.senior figures in the party. Several Conservative Party donors, three

:42:12. > :42:18.former Conservative MPs, six Lawrence -- sex members of the house

:42:19. > :42:25.of Lords with connections to Mossack Fonseca. -- 6-mac members.

:42:26. > :42:30.Independent assessments on tax assessments introduced since May

:42:31. > :42:36.show the poorest 10% of forecasters see the income fall by 20% by 2020.

:42:37. > :42:41.It is the poorest and least able to carry the burden who will suffer the

:42:42. > :42:45.most under this Government. An economic system that allows tax

:42:46. > :42:49.avoidance on this deal is one in which the inventor or entrepreneur

:42:50. > :42:54.is second to the owner of wealth, worker comes second to the

:42:55. > :43:02.plutocrats, taxpayer is second to the tax dodger. Inherited privilege

:43:03. > :43:08.and wealth is rewarded,... I was not enamoured with all the previous

:43:09. > :43:13.Labour Government's economic policies. Its measures on

:43:14. > :43:17.corporation tax avoidance I forecast by the Financial Times that is ten

:43:18. > :43:23.times as much revenue as the present Chancellor's schemes. The Panama

:43:24. > :43:27.league must act as something for the size of action. The Government has

:43:28. > :43:32.stepped up the rhetoric on tax evasion but much of it falls short

:43:33. > :43:39.of what is the duct or repeat existing announcement. I remind the

:43:40. > :43:44.ministers that in the OBR report that accompanied this year's budget

:43:45. > :43:48.included a scheme for those operating in the Isle of Mann and

:43:49. > :43:53.Joseph. It said that HMRC they're not have the resources to follow up

:43:54. > :43:59.on the links of the scheme. Can I say again, with press releases and

:44:00. > :44:05.more action. It is time to move on and closing down tax havens and

:44:06. > :44:13.clearing mist of avoidance. We need an immediate and full public enquiry

:44:14. > :44:19.into the Panama leaks. The Government's proposed task force

:44:20. > :44:24.will report to the Government from partly funded by donors are featured

:44:25. > :44:29.in the Panama Papers. To have any credibility any enquiry must be

:44:30. > :44:33.fully independent. We must shine a light on and prised apart the

:44:34. > :44:38.corrupt networks operate through tax havens. Part of that means creating

:44:39. > :44:43.a proper register of the was my interest. Members should not be able

:44:44. > :44:48.to hide behind spurious claims of privacy and we want HMRC proper that

:44:49. > :44:53.resource to chase down tax of orders with a new specialist unit dedicated

:44:54. > :44:56.to that task. Foreign firms bidding for Government contracts should be

:44:57. > :45:03.required to name their owners. There should be full public country by

:45:04. > :45:09.country reporting of earnings and order shipped by countries and

:45:10. > :45:15.trusts. The measures announced by the EU this week do not go nearly

:45:16. > :45:21.far enough, requiring only partial reporting by companies and the

:45:22. > :45:26.turnover threshold is far too high. Labour MVPs in Europe will be

:45:27. > :45:29.pushing to reduce their to a lower level so large corporations find it

:45:30. > :45:33.more difficult to dodge paying their fair share of tax. Back should be

:45:34. > :45:42.the beneficial ownership of trustee work with, which means creeping a

:45:43. > :45:47.public register of trusts, not only companies, as the Government is

:45:48. > :45:55.currently enforcing. The Prime Minister has a role to play as he

:45:56. > :45:59.lobbied for the exclusion of trusts. The projection of a public register

:46:00. > :46:03.of the trust, too often used to avoid paying tax and reduce

:46:04. > :46:07.transparency in our tax system. Let's come back to Crown

:46:08. > :46:11.Dependencies and Overseas Territories. We must ensure they

:46:12. > :46:15.enforce a far stricter minimum standards of transparency for

:46:16. > :46:20.company and trust ownership. The current programme for reform has

:46:21. > :46:23.been laughed at by the tax havens. The Leader of the Opposition quoted

:46:24. > :46:28.today that only this week after signing the new Deal and beneficial

:46:29. > :46:32.ownership, the Cayman Islands's premiere was celebrating a victory

:46:33. > :46:37.over the UK, saying this is what they wanted, this is what we have

:46:38. > :46:41.been pushing for for three years. The truth is the Government is

:46:42. > :46:49.playing into the hands of those who want to abuse the system. We need

:46:50. > :46:54.serious action on enforcement, we need not central registers but full

:46:55. > :47:00.public registers, accessible to all, including journalists and other

:47:01. > :47:06.businesses, if we're to court the activities expose any Panama Papers.

:47:07. > :47:08.This package of measures is the labour tax transparency and

:47:09. > :47:13.enforcement programme. We believe it was a sound basis to take the first

:47:14. > :47:16.necessary steps to invoice avoidance and opens up transparency. We want

:47:17. > :47:21.to see immediate effect of action unless this busy test of leadership.

:47:22. > :47:25.The leadership of the party opposite could take this opportunity to

:47:26. > :47:29.correct the series of errors it made and join us today and taking

:47:30. > :47:32.effective action and the four steps to series that dealing with

:47:33. > :47:36.avoidance. People want to see the party opposite that the steps

:47:37. > :47:41.otherwise they will rightfully stand accused of siding with the wrong

:47:42. > :47:48.people, rightfully stand accused of being the party of the tax

:47:49. > :47:52.avoidance. I recall not long ago the Chancellor of the Exchequer appeared

:47:53. > :47:56.on television and I quote, give advice on pretty clever financial

:47:57. > :48:03.products as he describes them. That would allow the wealthy to dodge

:48:04. > :48:12.inheritance tax. Don't tempt me, Mr Speaker. Some Conservative backbench

:48:13. > :48:16.MPs believe tax avoidance is a sign of success. The Prime Minister

:48:17. > :48:20.himself as a direct beneficiary of the scheme set up an offshore tax

:48:21. > :48:24.haven through his private ownership of playable holding shares. The

:48:25. > :48:32.Panama leaks present a stark political choice. To be continued to

:48:33. > :48:36.allow a system of corruption and avoidance or now take action

:48:37. > :48:40.necessarily do is restore our tax system and correct the abuses of

:48:41. > :48:44.democracy? That the choice ahead of us and urged the Government and all

:48:45. > :48:50.members to join ayes not a new series programme of work to tackle

:48:51. > :48:55.the abuse of our system. The Government can make is that by

:48:56. > :49:01.supporting this motion today and I commend the demotion to the hosts.

:49:02. > :49:08.The question is as on the order paper. I call the Financial

:49:09. > :49:11.Secretary to the Treasury. It is a great pleasure for the second time

:49:12. > :49:16.this week the Government can inform the host what we have done and how

:49:17. > :49:20.much more we have done than the previous Government to tackle

:49:21. > :49:24.evasion, avoidance and aggressive tax planning and to be a world

:49:25. > :49:32.leader in tax transparency. Mr Speaker, and 2010 we had a situation

:49:33. > :49:36.where you could not fully find out who owned a company in the UK, the

:49:37. > :49:42.details of London property, if it was owned by a foreign company, and

:49:43. > :49:46.not only were the rules governing multinational companies out of date,

:49:47. > :49:51.allowing the tax base to be eroded, there was no attempt to bring these

:49:52. > :49:58.rules up to date, nor was there any sign of these matters were going to

:49:59. > :50:02.change. Loopholes, secrecy, concealment, those are the issues we

:50:03. > :50:06.are sorting out and threw not only what we're doing in the UK but

:50:07. > :50:15.through our firm and action overseas. I want to clarify the

:50:16. > :50:19.sentence he used. Can he now confront we come of the proposals

:50:20. > :50:23.put forward by him, the public will not have access to the register

:50:24. > :50:29.beneficial owners of other companies trusts. We will not have access. Let

:50:30. > :50:35.me tell him precisely what I just said. In 2010 we could not find out

:50:36. > :50:40.who really owns a company in the United Kingdom. From June we will be

:50:41. > :50:48.publishing a public register of beneficial ownership. What's more,

:50:49. > :50:53.HMRC could not find out who owns a company based in an overseas

:50:54. > :50:57.territory. As a consequence of the agreements we have reached this

:50:58. > :51:01.week, HMRC will be able to do just that. That is evidence of the

:51:02. > :51:06.progress made under this Government and was not the case under the

:51:07. > :51:11.previous Government. I'll give way to the honourable gentleman.

:51:12. > :51:17.We have had lots of honeyed words from the Government about how they

:51:18. > :51:22.are going to deal with this. Isn't that belied by the fact that they

:51:23. > :51:25.appointed somebody as the executive chair of HMRC who thinks that

:51:26. > :51:33.taxation is legalised extortion? Doesn't that demonstrate the

:51:34. > :51:36.attitude that is demonstrated in the organisation. It is unfortunate that

:51:37. > :51:43.the honourable gentleman seeks to smear a public servant who has

:51:44. > :51:49.served governments of both colours, let me make this point, let me make

:51:50. > :51:55.this point. This is somebody who has served governments of all colours,

:51:56. > :51:59.who I have to say I have worked with extensively over six years and who

:52:00. > :52:04.is determined and has been determined to do everything he can

:52:05. > :52:09.to ensure that our tax laws are properly enforced, and that we have

:52:10. > :52:13.tax laws that deal with avoidance and evasion. And I would suggest to

:52:14. > :52:18.anybody throwing around one line from an article written in 1999 that

:52:19. > :52:25.they looked at the entire article, because the argument that he makes

:52:26. > :52:29.in that article is to ensure that we properly address tax avoidance by

:52:30. > :52:33.ensuring that we get the law right. And I do feel that it is unfortunate

:52:34. > :52:42.when accusations are thrown around in this way, dedicated in partial

:52:43. > :52:44.public servants. I will give way. I am extremely grateful to my

:52:45. > :52:48.honourable friend and I would like to pay tribute to his work over

:52:49. > :52:51.several years in dealing with some of these issues. Would he also like

:52:52. > :52:55.to comment on the fact that we now face a situation in this country

:52:56. > :52:59.where we have the smallest ever on record gap between the tax owed and

:53:00. > :53:03.the tax paid, isn't that the real story about the efficiency of this

:53:04. > :53:06.Government in dealing with a collection of tax and also dealing

:53:07. > :53:12.with some of the difficulties that we have in the system? My honourable

:53:13. > :53:18.friend is right. The reality is that the tax gap as a percentage of the

:53:19. > :53:25.tax revenues has fallen very considerably over the course of the

:53:26. > :53:31.last, over the last six years. And that is testament to the effort put

:53:32. > :53:33.it not only by this Government but also by HMRC, and there are

:53:34. > :53:39.considerable challenges with bringing the tax gap down. There are

:53:40. > :53:44.a number of aspects of it, including tax evasion, tax avoidance,

:53:45. > :53:48.inadvertent error on the part of tax payers, which does happen from time

:53:49. > :53:53.to time, I'm sure all members of the House will recognise that. And we

:53:54. > :53:57.are determined to do what we can to improve and strengthen our systems,

:53:58. > :54:02.all of that, and I'm grateful for the opportunity today to make

:54:03. > :54:05.progress on that. I will give way. With the Minister just emphasise the

:54:06. > :54:11.point about the tax gap, one of the most relevant measures is not the

:54:12. > :54:13.general tax gap, it is the tax gap specifically for corporations paying

:54:14. > :54:18.Corporation Tax, and on that measure of the tax gap the tax gap was

:54:19. > :54:21.rising when the Government, when the Coalition Government came to power

:54:22. > :54:27.in 2010, and has fallen by almost 50% over the last X years. That is a

:54:28. > :54:33.major achievement, specifically for corporations. My honourable friend

:54:34. > :54:42.is right, but tax gap in the context of large companies and tax avoidance

:54:43. > :54:46.as a whole has full lunch -- fallen strongly. Let me take this

:54:47. > :54:53.opportunity to set out some of the steps. I will give way, but I stand

:54:54. > :54:57.by the point that he has, not for the first time, sought to attack an

:54:58. > :55:02.impartial, dedicated public servant who cannot answer back, and by

:55:03. > :55:10.selectively quoting an article written in 1999, and I have set out

:55:11. > :55:13.to the House the context of which that article was written where he is

:55:14. > :55:19.very clear that this is somebody who believes that the law should

:55:20. > :55:25.properly be forced and has a record over many years of doing precisely

:55:26. > :55:29.that. He accused of this swearing this individual when I was quoting

:55:30. > :55:34.word for word. It is only the jet eyes to the extent of the law --

:55:35. > :55:39.smearing. If you set the bar to load and fewer people will pay tax and be

:55:40. > :55:44.able to avoid it. -- too low. My point is that this Government's

:55:45. > :55:47.attitude towards tax avoidance is blacks, and their words of war

:55:48. > :55:55.honeyed than their actions. -- is lax. This Government year income a

:55:56. > :56:00.year out closes loopholes, this Government has led to the OECD work

:56:01. > :56:05.on base erosion and profit shifting. This Government has given all powers

:56:06. > :56:09.to HMRC, this Government has seen a significant fall in the tax gap,

:56:10. > :56:14.particularly in the context of avoidance, this Government has a

:56:15. > :56:17.proud record on dealing with tax avoidance and tax evasion and

:56:18. > :56:22.dealing with all abuses of the tax system. I will give way. Would he

:56:23. > :56:28.also consider that this is the Government who, by HMRC, has raised

:56:29. > :56:31.?2 billion since 2010 from offshore tax evasion. Does this not

:56:32. > :56:38.demonstrate that this Government ensures that tax should be paid and

:56:39. > :56:42.is paid. Absolutely right. Madam Deputy Speaker, I should make some

:56:43. > :56:47.progress, because this speech sets out what we have done and what we

:56:48. > :56:51.are continuing to do. I realise that the point at which I say I should

:56:52. > :56:54.make some progress, I look round House and everybody is standing up!

:56:55. > :57:00.I will give way to the honourable gentleman. I thank the Secretary for

:57:01. > :57:06.giving way. He made a reference to the record of this Government. This

:57:07. > :57:11.also includes the changes to the foreign companies rules which cost

:57:12. > :57:14.the Exchequer and more importantly cost the Exchequer of developing

:57:15. > :57:18.countries. The honourable gentleman and I have debated this issue on a

:57:19. > :57:22.number of occasions. The state of it number of occasions. The state of it

:57:23. > :57:26.when we came to office in 2010, it was outdated and it was driving

:57:27. > :57:29.businesses out of this country. Since the reforms we have

:57:30. > :57:35.undertaken, we have seen more businesses located in the UK, we

:57:36. > :57:38.have seen businesses locating their headquarters, their European

:57:39. > :57:44.headquarters in the UK, it has added to the attractive as a place to do

:57:45. > :57:48.business. As a place for developing countries, I have made this point

:57:49. > :57:52.before, the UK has been at the forefront of building the capacity

:57:53. > :57:55.of developing countries will two tax authorities to ensure that they are

:57:56. > :57:58.capable of collecting the tax that is due under their rules. I will

:57:59. > :58:03.give way then I must make some progress. Of course I welcome what

:58:04. > :58:08.the Government has done in tackling tax wouldn't sound evasion. When he

:58:09. > :58:11.says more could be done on tax avoidance, does he accept that this

:58:12. > :58:15.Government is playing catch up with looking up the comments by the

:58:16. > :58:18.former Labour Foreign Secretary Lord Chancellor, who said there was

:58:19. > :58:21.action which the Labour government could have done and taken on tax

:58:22. > :58:28.avoidance, but yet it was not done and we are now catching up with that

:58:29. > :58:32.deficit by the previous government. I think my honourable friend was

:58:33. > :58:35.right to draw the attention of the House to those remarks. We have done

:58:36. > :58:38.a great deal in terms of tax avoidance but there is always of

:58:39. > :58:42.course more to be done, and I will set out a bit about how they are

:58:43. > :58:45.doing that and working through the OECD and implement Inglot. The

:58:46. > :58:59.honourable gentleman says he wants to help me, I will then I will some

:59:00. > :59:04.progress. In this debate, can the Minister detail any schemes that

:59:05. > :59:09.have been identified since 2012 which can be classed either as

:59:10. > :59:14.morally repugnant or morally wrong? Both terms used by the Prime

:59:15. > :59:19.Minister and Chancellor in 2012 to point out what these schemes could

:59:20. > :59:24.be. Has any work being done on who they are, and going forward...

:59:25. > :59:30.Actually I think the honourable gentleman is being helpful. Not that

:59:31. > :59:37.I ever doubted that he was! The point I would make him is that where

:59:38. > :59:40.there is artificial, contrived behaviour, where there are schemes

:59:41. > :59:46.that are clearly contrary to the intention of Parliament, we need to

:59:47. > :59:51.take strong action. And we also I think are entitled to be critical of

:59:52. > :59:54.those involved in promoting those schemes. And actually, one of the

:59:55. > :59:59.things that we have done is brought in a regime whereby we can name and

:00:00. > :00:07.shame promoters of tax avoidance schemes that are clearly contrary to

:00:08. > :00:13.the intention of Parliament. I'm on page three, we are ten minutes in,

:00:14. > :00:17.but I will give way. If the members opposite want to be helpful perhaps

:00:18. > :00:23.they can speak to the unions, because Unison in 2011 and 2012 paid

:00:24. > :00:27.no Corporation Tax despite ?51.6 million worth of stocks and shares

:00:28. > :00:34.and generating an income of over ?5 million. I try to make it a rule not

:00:35. > :00:39.comment on the individual tax affairs of taxpayers. But for those

:00:40. > :00:45.who are happy to wading on those debates, it is up to them to answer

:00:46. > :00:50.those questions. Madam Deputy Speaker, HMRC is committed to

:00:51. > :00:52.exposing and acting on financial wrongdoing, their specialist

:00:53. > :00:56.offshore unit is currently investigating more than 1100 cases

:00:57. > :01:01.of offshore invasion around the world, with more than 19 individuals

:01:02. > :01:05.subject current criminal investigation. The motion before us

:01:06. > :01:12.calls for greater resource in from HMRC. That is why in the budget 2015

:01:13. > :01:17.we confirmed an extra ?800 million to fund additional work to tackle

:01:18. > :01:21.evasion and noncompliance by 2020-21. We have heard quite a lot

:01:22. > :01:26.today about HMRC resources and headcount. And I do have to say,

:01:27. > :01:30.Madam Deputy Speaker, I do have to concede that in terms of compliance

:01:31. > :01:35.and enforcement, there was a period of time where the numbers working

:01:36. > :01:43.within compliance and enforcement fell. I have two except that that is

:01:44. > :01:48.the case. That period was up to 2010. -- I have to accept. If we

:01:49. > :01:51.look at the way the numbers were in 2010 compared to today, the

:01:52. > :01:56.important and compliance numbers are higher than when the Prime Minister

:01:57. > :02:01.and Chancellor and myself took our respective positions. So there has

:02:02. > :02:06.been an increase. I accept that a lot of the HMRC work in terms of

:02:07. > :02:10.processing and self-assessment forms for example, much more of that has

:02:11. > :02:14.been automated, and the staff working in that area have reduced.

:02:15. > :02:17.In terms of compliance and enforcement, those numbers have

:02:18. > :02:23.actually increased over the last six years. I just want to make a little

:02:24. > :02:28.bit more progress. Even before last week, HMRC had already received a

:02:29. > :02:33.great deal of information of sore companies, including in Panama and

:02:34. > :02:36.including Mossack Fonseca. This information comes from wide range of

:02:37. > :02:43.sources and is currently the subject of intensive investigation. HMRC has

:02:44. > :02:47.asked the international Consortium of investigative journalist, the BBC

:02:48. > :02:50.and Guardian, share the data that they have received, it is clearly

:02:51. > :02:54.important to examine the data closely, that is why we are

:02:55. > :03:01.providing new funding of up to ten Liam pounds for a cross agency task

:03:02. > :03:08.force -- ?10 million. The analyser Panama Papers and take action on any

:03:09. > :03:14.This will include analysts and This will include analysts and

:03:15. > :03:17.investigators from across HMRC, the National Crime Agency, the Serious

:03:18. > :03:20.Fraud Office and Financial Conduct Authority. Between them, these

:03:21. > :03:24.agencies will have sophisticated technology, experts and resources,

:03:25. > :03:28.to tackle money laundering and tax evasion anywhere in the world. This

:03:29. > :03:35.task force will report to Mike right honourable friend the Chancellor by

:03:36. > :03:40.taking action, and we will update Parliament later this year. I stress

:03:41. > :03:43.the point, the task force will have total operational independence, if

:03:44. > :03:47.they find people to prosecute, they will prosecute them, if they find

:03:48. > :03:51.information of illegality they will act on it. In addition, the

:03:52. > :03:55.independent Financial Conduct Authority has written to financial

:03:56. > :04:00.firms asking them to declare their links to Mossack Fonseca. If the FCA

:04:01. > :04:05.were to find any evidence that firms had been breaking rules, it also has

:04:06. > :04:13.strong powers to take punitive action. He mentioned a moment ago

:04:14. > :04:17.last year's Budget, the ?800 million figure being identified for

:04:18. > :04:23.noncompliance issues. But I understand from his answer to a

:04:24. > :04:26.written question, ?266 million has been allocated to specifically

:04:27. > :04:37.address tax fraud. How much of that will be spent on tax evasion? Well,

:04:38. > :04:41.the reality is the vast majority of the additional money that we have

:04:42. > :04:44.put into compliance, both the ?800 million that was announced last

:04:45. > :04:48.year, the ?1 billion that was announced in the last Parliament, is

:04:49. > :04:52.going to dealing with tax evasion. All of it is going into compliance,

:04:53. > :04:57.which is, you know, the areas of tax evasion, and tax avoidance, in its

:04:58. > :05:04.broadest points. I'm happy to let the honourable lady have details of

:05:05. > :05:08.the precise numbers, and I will happily write to her on that

:05:09. > :05:12.subject. This is money that is going into compliance, exactly to deal

:05:13. > :05:16.with these areas. It is an area that we have taken very seriously, an

:05:17. > :05:19.area that is going to raise substantial sums for us over the

:05:20. > :05:25.course of this Parliament, and we are proud of the record of what we

:05:26. > :05:29.have done here. Now, in terms of, HMRC resources, I will take that

:05:30. > :05:34.intervention. I thank him for giving way. Can he first of all confirmed

:05:35. > :05:38.that in terms of headcount, there are 14,000 less staff in HMRC now

:05:39. > :05:43.than there were in 2010. Secondly, can he informed the House of whether

:05:44. > :05:47.there are any HMRC staff at the moment you have a compulsory

:05:48. > :05:51.redundancy notice? I make no secret of the fact that HMRC is a smaller

:05:52. > :05:58.organisation than it was in 2010 in terms of headcount. The reason why

:05:59. > :06:01.is that there are capabilities of finding efficiency savings in an

:06:02. > :06:05.organisation that devotes a number of staff to processing pieces of

:06:06. > :06:09.paper where we are moving towards a more digital world, where we can

:06:10. > :06:12.make greater use of technology. In terms of the area which I think is

:06:13. > :06:18.relevant today, and is the concern of the House, the concern is

:06:19. > :06:23.insuring that HMRC have got the resources to deal with tax evasion

:06:24. > :06:27.and also tax avoidance. And in that area, I don't think headcount is the

:06:28. > :06:31.be all and end all of these matters, it is what you get out not what you

:06:32. > :06:36.put in. As it happens, the numbers have gone up. Under this government

:06:37. > :06:39.in terms of the number of people who are dealing with enforcement and

:06:40. > :06:40.compliance, that is a point that sometimes seems to be missed from

:06:41. > :06:51.this debate. In a globalised world international

:06:52. > :06:55.action is vital to stop cross-border tax avoidance and evasion. The UK

:06:56. > :07:01.Government can be proud of having done more than any other country to

:07:02. > :07:05.stop these practices. In terms of avoidance we have already

:07:06. > :07:08.implemented the recommendations for country by country reporting to

:07:09. > :07:13.improve transparency between businesses and tax authorities and

:07:14. > :07:18.advocated for public country by country reporting on a multilateral

:07:19. > :07:22.basis. The commission's proposals for country by country reporting are

:07:23. > :07:26.expecting the right direction towards a new international rules

:07:27. > :07:28.for greater public transparency however we must consider the details

:07:29. > :07:34.of the proposal including how the reporting is done and how the

:07:35. > :07:38.information is broken now. In terms of transparency in the context of a

:07:39. > :07:45.vision, which is a key point here, we will be the first major country

:07:46. > :07:48.to publish a register of company beneficial ownership, free for

:07:49. > :07:51.anyone to access allowing everyone to see who owns what company. My

:07:52. > :07:57.right honourable friend the Prime Minister made it the variety to use

:07:58. > :08:03.our G8 presidency to set a new global standard for tax

:08:04. > :08:06.transparency. As a result 129 jurisdictions have accepted to

:08:07. > :08:11.implementing the international standards for tax information on

:08:12. > :08:16.request and 95 jurisdictions have committed to accepting the global

:08:17. > :08:20.reporting standards on tax transparency. That is a huge

:08:21. > :08:23.breakthrough. Six years ago no one believed we would get to that

:08:24. > :08:31.position. I am delighted we have done so. This is a step towards

:08:32. > :08:36.transparency. With the Financial Secretary, on the fact that to

:08:37. > :08:41.emphasise that point, none of our major international economic

:08:42. > :08:46.competitors have agreed so far to have a public register of beneficial

:08:47. > :08:51.ownership, and in fact, the state of Delaware in which 90% of US public

:08:52. > :08:56.companies are listed, have said they have no intention of implementing

:08:57. > :09:04.this. We are leading the world and living our major competitors.

:09:05. > :09:08.She is all right. He is absolutely right to raise that point and I will

:09:09. > :09:15.turn to that subject in a moment in terms of the public register. It

:09:16. > :09:19.makes considerable process to get central registers and that is

:09:20. > :09:22.something we have pushed for and I am pleased overseas territories and

:09:23. > :09:30.Crown dependencies have agreed to sign up to that. The Prime Minister

:09:31. > :09:34.stated the registers that the overseas territories will provide

:09:35. > :09:38.will be available to tax authorities here, but as this debate has

:09:39. > :09:43.highlighted it is a global problem, so will will registers be shared

:09:44. > :09:47.with other tax enforcement agencies globally, so they can ensure tax is

:09:48. > :09:50.not being avoided from other countries? He raises an important

:09:51. > :09:55.point and I think there is scope of going further on that point. What we

:09:56. > :10:00.have agreed it is surely we have access to those central registers,

:10:01. > :10:06.that is clearly very helpful, but I think there is more progress that

:10:07. > :10:16.can be made in terms of that and that is something to turn to in the

:10:17. > :10:19.future. I must say, in terms of the International standards, it is the

:10:20. > :10:24.case Panama is one of the very few financial centres but has not yet

:10:25. > :10:30.fully committed to the standards. We are clear it should do so and

:10:31. > :10:33.continue to press for Panama to join the club of responsible nations.

:10:34. > :10:37.There is more international work to be done, in particular on

:10:38. > :10:41.money-laundering, which is why we are hosting an anti-corruption

:10:42. > :10:46.Summit in me to encourage concessions on publishing

:10:47. > :10:52.information and putting it into the public domain, as we are doing in

:10:53. > :10:54.the UK. Once again, Britain is leading the world on transparency,

:10:55. > :11:02.accountability and responsibility. I am conscious I have a few important

:11:03. > :11:07.points I want to say. Can I just addressed the subject of the UK's

:11:08. > :11:11.Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories? Reform of the regimes

:11:12. > :11:16.of the overseas territories and Crown dependencies has been a key

:11:17. > :11:19.objective and reforms have been considerable. All Crown Dependencies

:11:20. > :11:23.and Overseas Territories with financial centres are early adopters

:11:24. > :11:30.of the common reporting standards, reporting annually from 2017. The

:11:31. > :11:32.Crown Dependencies and Overseas Territories will also share

:11:33. > :11:38.information with the UK from this year, one year earlier than the rest

:11:39. > :11:39.of the world. All UK Crown Dependencies and Overseas

:11:40. > :11:44.Territories with financial centres are committed to a balancing company

:11:45. > :11:47.ownership. The Prime Minister announced last Monday our overseas

:11:48. > :11:53.territories and Crown dependencies and agreed to provide Lukey

:11:54. > :11:59.law-enforcement and tax agencies with full information on company

:12:00. > :12:02.ownership. For the first time UK police and law enforcement agencies

:12:03. > :12:05.will be able to see exactly who owns and controls every company

:12:06. > :12:10.incorporated in those territories. This is a major step forward in

:12:11. > :12:15.transparency, a result of the Government's sustained work in this

:12:16. > :12:19.area. It is rightly expect these overseas territories and Crown

:12:20. > :12:23.dependencies to meet international standards, and indeed they do. Yes,

:12:24. > :12:29.we want them to move towards a public register but that is not yet

:12:30. > :12:31.the international standard. If, as the Leader of the Opposition

:12:32. > :12:36.suggest, every former colony that does not have the public register

:12:37. > :12:45.should be recolonised, we would be begin? Is he proposing we invade

:12:46. > :12:54.Delaware? LAUGHTER

:12:55. > :12:59.The reality is, and this is the point right honourable friend was

:13:00. > :13:03.right to raise, the UK is in favour of a public register, we are

:13:04. > :13:08.implementing this in June, for the first time.

:13:09. > :13:12.We want other countries to do so as well but it is the case at the very

:13:13. > :13:18.few of our European union colleagues do it. It is not the case that the

:13:19. > :13:24.USA does it, we want to ensure it becomes the new international

:13:25. > :13:28.standard, but in terms of orders of Council, condemning overseas

:13:29. > :13:33.territories for failing to do what most of our EU colleagues do, I

:13:34. > :13:38.don't think would be particularly fair or, for that matter, effective.

:13:39. > :13:42.Our approach has brought the overseas territories and Crown

:13:43. > :13:48.dependencies a long way and I do to the approach advocated by the Labour

:13:49. > :13:56.Party would fail to work. Alex are more progress. -- I'll make some

:13:57. > :14:01.more progress. As well as leading international action we have ensured

:14:02. > :14:06.domestically our region is balls off and transparent. We have invested

:14:07. > :14:13.more than ?1.8 billion in HMRC since 2010 to tackle avoidance and

:14:14. > :14:19.noncompliance. The extra funding we announced in the summer budget 2015

:14:20. > :14:25.will allow HMI seek to recover a cumulative ?7.2 billion in tax of

:14:26. > :14:30.the next five years. -- allow HMRC. Also tripling the number of criminal

:14:31. > :14:35.investigations about complex tax train it can handle. We closed our

:14:36. > :14:41.existing loopholes and introducing major reforms in the UK tax system,

:14:42. > :14:44.raising ?12 million. Increased penalties, new offences, all the

:14:45. > :14:49.polls close, new measures, more money raised. It does not stop

:14:50. > :14:53.there. In this parliament we have already announced 25 measures from

:14:54. > :15:00.legislation to tackle avoidance, evasion and address of planning and

:15:01. > :15:04.these measures are forecast to raise ?16 billion by 2020-20 one. This

:15:05. > :15:07.week we also honoured with the bungalow and frustration before the

:15:08. > :15:13.house to make it a crime when corporations failed to present their

:15:14. > :15:16.representatives from criminally facilitating tax evasion. This goes

:15:17. > :15:20.further than any other country has gone and holding corporations to

:15:21. > :15:25.account for criminal wrongdoing and will apply to both UK and overseas

:15:26. > :15:28.corporations and set a new standard for corporate responsibility and

:15:29. > :15:32.accountability. I'm sure all sides of the house will be supportive of

:15:33. > :15:39.any measures as they go through. What a contrast to the 13 years of

:15:40. > :15:44.the last Labour Government. This week they wrap up the rhetoric but

:15:45. > :15:49.it was not on our watch the private equity managers have lower rates of

:15:50. > :15:55.tax band nor was that under our watch the food avoid stamp duty or

:15:56. > :16:02.disguise their remuneration as loans that were never repaid. Just some of

:16:03. > :16:07.the loopholes left open by Labour that we have been busy closing ever

:16:08. > :16:12.since. I would make this point about the approach of the Labour Party in

:16:13. > :16:15.the last week. Yes, taxes should be paid in accordance with the law and

:16:16. > :16:19.intentions of Parliament and we should take action against those who

:16:20. > :16:25.fail to do so. We on the site of the house hold that view. Too often in

:16:26. > :16:29.the past week, the party opposite had appeared to be motivated by

:16:30. > :16:38.something else. That's something else is hostility to the wealthy.

:16:39. > :16:44.Not for dodging taxes, Madam Deputy Speaker, but just for being wealthy.

:16:45. > :16:49.For being successful, for earning money and wanting to pass it their

:16:50. > :16:58.children. For doing things that millions of people aspire to do.

:16:59. > :17:05.Thanks to the actions of this Government, action we have taken

:17:06. > :17:08.domestically and overseas, we're changing tax transparency and

:17:09. > :17:12.putting an end to offshore tax evasion. This is strong and firm

:17:13. > :17:18.action from a Government committed to ensuring every penny of tax that

:17:19. > :17:26.is owed is paid. I urge the house to reject emotion" of us. Can I make a

:17:27. > :17:31.number of small observations on what we have heard so far. And gently say

:17:32. > :17:37.to the Minister, who I like, success is not merely measured in monetary

:17:38. > :17:45.terms, there are many successful people who will forego stashing cash

:17:46. > :17:49.in the attic or the bank, or indeed the offshore tax haven. The second

:17:50. > :17:55.think on, can I say in terms of HMRC, we have no problem with

:17:56. > :18:04.efficiency, organisations being fit for purpose, no qualms about real,

:18:05. > :18:08.genuine ways being eroded. But with 17 out of 18 tax rises being closed

:18:09. > :18:14.and only one being reopened and the argument that was somehow deliver

:18:15. > :18:18.more for what is substantially less. I also say in terms of the Shadow

:18:19. > :18:29.Chancellor, he spoke of wealth inequality rising to the level we

:18:30. > :18:33.haven't seen since the... I would not put the Prime Minister into the

:18:34. > :18:36.category of the super rich like the Rockefellers. One of the things we

:18:37. > :18:41.do know is the Prime Minister has the open up about is he bought

:18:42. > :18:46.shares, as he described it, any class fund as part of Blair Holdings

:18:47. > :18:53.and sold them at some years later. Episode that, because he did nothing

:18:54. > :18:59.at all illegal, it bright light onto a very murky corner of tax havens.

:19:00. > :19:09.One thing that gets straight meat he the stock in 1997 and sold it in

:19:10. > :19:15.2010. Those dates were familiar to me. It was the entire duration of

:19:16. > :19:18.Blair and Brown and new Labour, and in terms of the underlying issue

:19:19. > :19:27.which I note the Shadow Chancellor is genuinely concerned about, many

:19:28. > :19:30.of the pointy minister made at the end, the Labour Party did precisely

:19:31. > :19:38.nothing about this for 13 years and am glad this is now on the agenda

:19:39. > :19:41.and on it any proper and cogent way. My friend back for Kirkcaldy and

:19:42. > :19:47.Cowdenbeath made a number of points during his speech during the second

:19:48. > :19:52.reading of the Finance Bill on Monday in this area. He said, you

:19:53. > :19:57.cannot build economic success on the back of social injustice. He said,

:19:58. > :20:00.quoting Adam Smith, no society can be flourishing and happy of which

:20:01. > :20:04.the far greater part of the members are poor and miserable. He argued

:20:05. > :20:09.creating such division does not bring progress and went on to

:20:10. > :20:15.describe how much of this division is characterised today with people

:20:16. > :20:19.in certain quarters being able to park large sums of money and wealth

:20:20. > :20:27.offshore and the vast majority of the rest being unable to do that. He

:20:28. > :20:34.suggested, according to Jason from the London School of economics, tax

:20:35. > :20:40.havens or 16 of the world's total private wealth. Some estimates put

:20:41. > :20:46.that aside $32 trillion. CNN described at around 6% of global

:20:47. > :20:55.total GDP. I think we can probably all agree because somewhere in the

:20:56. > :21:05.sweaty trillion dollar mark. Just ?15 UK GDP offshore in tax havens.

:21:06. > :21:09.-- the $20 trillion mark. That criminals can hide from the relevant

:21:10. > :21:15.tax authorities and the revelations in the document any pat papers from

:21:16. > :21:23.Mossack Fonseca up at the set of the iceberg. It means there are three

:21:24. > :21:28.larger farms providing these services and panorama and hundreds

:21:29. > :21:32.of smaller forms and it is not simply in Panama will stop Panama

:21:33. > :21:39.does not even make it into the top ten tax havens. We are purpose and I

:21:40. > :21:43.don't think it has changed yet, notwithstanding the measures the

:21:44. > :21:49.Government announced, UK and overseas Territories collectively

:21:50. > :21:52.are number one, outstripping even Switzerland by some margin. Concerns

:21:53. > :21:58.of the overseas territories it is worth reminding ourselves that at

:21:59. > :22:04.this angle address in the Cayman Islands there are 19,000 registered

:22:05. > :22:09.businesses. I am certain some of those businesses will be legal, but

:22:10. > :22:12.many will not be. Many will be companies was a beneficial owners

:22:13. > :22:16.remain hidden from the tax authorities there, here or

:22:17. > :22:20.elsewhere. It means income that should be the income taxation will

:22:21. > :22:27.go untaxed to the detriment of public services here and elsewhere.

:22:28. > :22:35.We have in essence an international system of finance which enables tax

:22:36. > :22:41.avoidance on an industrial scale. A system which hides from scrutiny the

:22:42. > :22:45.owners of vast wealth from the ordinary -- when the ordinary man

:22:46. > :22:49.and woman in the street does not have that luxury. They pay their

:22:50. > :22:55.fair share. They simply want others to do the same. What makes it most

:22:56. > :23:00.unfair, and I think why people are so angry, is that when assets and

:23:01. > :23:07.income are hidden and go untaxed, we all suffer as the resources we need

:23:08. > :23:13.are reduced and squeezed. But it is also the case that much of the tax

:23:14. > :23:20.stashed in tax havens is looted from developing countries. This is not

:23:21. > :23:22.simply an issue for the West. It is a matter of fundamental importance

:23:23. > :23:29.for those economies and countries who frankly our even more in need of

:23:30. > :23:33.tax receipts, which are effectively stolen from them and parking tax

:23:34. > :23:38.havens around the world. That is why part of the solution must involve a

:23:39. > :23:44.global agreement to ensure tax authorities and others can follow

:23:45. > :23:48.the money. The question from my honourable friend is absolutely

:23:49. > :23:52.right. We are moving to have data shared between the Crown

:23:53. > :23:55.Dependencies in overseas territories to law enforcement and the tax

:23:56. > :24:02.authorities. We think they should be public. It should also be shared

:24:03. > :24:06.elsewhere. I hope miscreants are identified by the revenue and the

:24:07. > :24:11.police here. There will be a very swift phone call to the authorities

:24:12. > :24:23.elsewhere so their authorities can also follow the money.

:24:24. > :24:28.China has ?44 billion invested in tax havens in the Cayman Islands,

:24:29. > :24:35.and 49 billion in the British urgent territory. Isn't it significant that

:24:36. > :24:39.one of the reasons the government does not want to act against these

:24:40. > :24:43.tax havens, is because they have ingratiated themselves with the

:24:44. > :24:53.Chinese, who are busy destroying our steel industry Chumak --? I suspect

:24:54. > :24:59.the Chinese authorities will be as interested in that $93 billion as

:25:00. > :25:03.much as we are. I do suspect much of that is not there, how shall I put

:25:04. > :25:08.this gently, officially. They have as big a problem with money being

:25:09. > :25:13.fleeced from their system as we do and other countries do. One of the

:25:14. > :25:19.other issues raised by my honourable friends was the question of where

:25:20. > :25:24.the money actually is and how it is set to work for its beneficiaries.

:25:25. > :25:29.As we know, the cash funds do not actually sit in the Cayman Islands

:25:30. > :25:36.or the Bahamas. One of the biggest centres for the cash is London.

:25:37. > :25:40.Hundreds, indeed thousands of very expensive properties in London

:25:41. > :25:47.bought by people not known. We have called for a radical reform to

:25:48. > :25:50.address tax avoidance, and criminality, and to deliver fairness

:25:51. > :25:55.across the board so the very wealthy pay the tax they are due in

:25:56. > :26:02.precisely the same way as those on more modest earnings. The starting

:26:03. > :26:06.point for paying tax in this country is the revenue knowing who precisely

:26:07. > :26:12.owns what assets and what income is derived from them. That does mean a

:26:13. > :26:16.public register of beneficial ownership of companies. But not just

:26:17. > :26:22.a public register of UK companies. A public register of beneficial

:26:23. > :26:26.ownership from the Crown Dependencies and the overseas

:26:27. > :26:33.territories as well. Precisely so nobody can hide assets through a

:26:34. > :26:37.structure of a company registered in an overseas territory registered by

:26:38. > :26:41.a Panamanian lawyer, while the money comes swiftly to a bank account in

:26:42. > :26:44.London and is part in a multi-million pound mansion in

:26:45. > :26:53.Mayfair through an anonymous shell company. It also means taking

:26:54. > :26:58.serious action on trusts. Madine Deputy Speaker, the argument the

:26:59. > :27:02.Prime Minister were used was -- was that he would not have got the

:27:03. > :27:06.agreement he had if trusts had been included. He has argued, possibly

:27:07. > :27:12.correctly, that these trusts were set up to allow investors to invest

:27:13. > :27:19.in dollar denominated stock. But times have changed. A cursory look

:27:20. > :27:26.at the stock exchange website this morning brings a frequently asked

:27:27. > :27:33.questions page. Question is, can a company trade in currencies other

:27:34. > :27:36.than sterling? The answer, yes. Your shares can be denominated and traded

:27:37. > :27:48.in any freely available currency you use. The stock exchange... The old

:27:49. > :27:53.arguments that these structures are required for non-Sterling trades are

:27:54. > :27:59.investment are now simply wrong. As my honourable friend put it, when

:28:00. > :28:04.the Prime Minister row may have been right some years ago, he is wrong

:28:05. > :28:09.now. Public opinion has changed dramatically. That brings me to what

:28:10. > :28:14.else the Prime Minister row actually said on Monday. He said he has

:28:15. > :28:19.published all of the information on tax returns for the last six years,

:28:20. > :28:23.he has provided details of money from his family, other sources of

:28:24. > :28:27.income and his salary. He dealt specifically with the shares his

:28:28. > :28:33.wife and he held in Blairmore Holdings, set up by his late father.

:28:34. > :28:38.And that was precisely the right thing to do. But all of that in a

:28:39. > :28:44.sense is irrelevant because it did not actually address the fundamental

:28:45. > :28:47.issue of individuals holding assets to oversee shell companies and being

:28:48. > :28:54.able to hide those and their income from the taxman. Also, what he said

:28:55. > :28:56.about the Panama papers, and in describing the action is his

:28:57. > :29:03.government were taking in dealing with tax evasion, tax avoidance and

:29:04. > :29:08.international corruption, more broadly, was that they have put an

:29:09. > :29:12.end to rich homeowners getting away without paying stamp duty because

:29:13. > :29:19.their houses were antelope within companies. They have made 40 changes

:29:20. > :29:26.to close loopholes. And in June of this year, the UK will become the

:29:27. > :29:29.first country in the G20 to have a public register of beneficial

:29:30. > :29:39.ownership so everyone can see who really owns and controls each

:29:40. > :29:44.company. All of this is to be welcomed. What we are saying is, we

:29:45. > :29:49.actually need to go further. It will not simply be enough for the police

:29:50. > :29:56.and the tax authorities to see beneficial ownership of companies

:29:57. > :30:00.registered in Crown dependencies. The citizens of these countries and

:30:01. > :30:06.ours must be able to see who precisely owns and benefits from

:30:07. > :30:10.what. And also, why we welcome the publication of beneficial ownership

:30:11. > :30:14.of companies in the UK, I would ask the government to ensure sufficient

:30:15. > :30:18.resources are dedicated to HMRC to forensically scrutinise the sources

:30:19. > :30:26.of income many of them have, to ensure they are illegal and the tax

:30:27. > :30:31.is due, and to pass on as quickly as possible details of any miscreants

:30:32. > :30:37.to the authorities suspected of looting cash from other countries.

:30:38. > :30:41.Madame Deputy Speaker, I am delighted this subject is now under

:30:42. > :30:56.real scrutiny. I am also delighted that we have gone wide. Oxfam give

:30:57. > :31:01.encouragement. They say the UK is especially well placed to show

:31:02. > :31:05.leadership here because it controls or directly influence is by far the

:31:06. > :31:10.largest networks of tax havens in the world. It comes from the Crown

:31:11. > :31:15.Dependencies, overseas territories and centred on the city of London.

:31:16. > :31:18.It is estimated nearly a quarter of global financial services provided

:31:19. > :31:24.to nonresidents within a jurisdiction take place. Taken

:31:25. > :31:31.together, this entire UK entity would be at the top of the tax

:31:32. > :31:36.Justice network 's financial secrecy index. That is not something we

:31:37. > :31:39.should be proud of. They go on to talk about the opportunity this

:31:40. > :31:45.government has. They say success in the area of tackling corruption, tax

:31:46. > :31:50.evasion, could be transformative, not just in terms of our revenue,

:31:51. > :31:59.but in the fight against global poverty and inequality. For the SNP

:32:00. > :32:03.that is as important. I will say one thing to the Minister and the

:32:04. > :32:09.government. The cat is out of the bag on this one. It is not just

:32:10. > :32:12.Mossack Fonseca. This is the tip of the iceberg. The public will not

:32:13. > :32:20.allow this matter to be quietly swept under the carpet again.

:32:21. > :32:24.Kevin Foster. Thank you. It is a pleasure to follow the member for

:32:25. > :32:28.Dundee East. While there are probably some things we disagree on,

:32:29. > :32:33.there are a couple of things we agree on. It is very welcome we are

:32:34. > :32:40.having this debate today. The second is the fear that the next tax haven

:32:41. > :32:45.to be listed might be England, if the Scottish Labour Party got their

:32:46. > :32:48.way after the elections this May and raised tax rates in Scotland for

:32:49. > :32:54.those people compared to what they would be paying south of the border.

:32:55. > :32:56.I certainly welcome this debate. As a member of the Public Accounts

:32:57. > :33:07.Committee it is all was good to be of the Commons -- it is certainly

:33:08. > :33:18.good. The opposition referred to tax early partly as a donation. I can

:33:19. > :33:23.understand why they said that. A tax is actually a legal requirement to

:33:24. > :33:28.pay something. It is not a donation or an act of charity. But as a

:33:29. > :33:33.member of the Public Accounts Committee, who also sat on the

:33:34. > :33:40.enquiry into perhaps one of the case -- cases that has helped to prompt

:33:41. > :33:43.this debate, that of Google. We focused a lot of time mentioning

:33:44. > :33:47.some of the offshore locations. In that instance we were getting

:33:48. > :33:56.references to the double Irish and the Dutch sandwich, which had helped

:33:57. > :34:02.produce their tax liability. Both jurisdictions are members of the EU.

:34:03. > :34:07.When we are working across the world in terms of trying to deal with tax

:34:08. > :34:10.evasion and avoidance, we must also make sure that other nation states

:34:11. > :34:14.have the focus of attention they deserve.

:34:15. > :34:20.There is quite a lot of chattering going on. I am finding it quite

:34:21. > :34:26.difficult to hear Kevin Foster. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. We

:34:27. > :34:34.were very clear that we felt HMRC should be trying to lead a debate

:34:35. > :34:38.about openness. In that instance, it was about the revenues and the

:34:39. > :34:43.discussion, the information that was there with HMRC. It is easy to

:34:44. > :34:48.grandstand in a debate like this. But it is important we have they

:34:49. > :34:51.considered debate, not a knee jerk reaction, to what information is

:34:52. > :34:55.available public. There cannot be specific rules for individual

:34:56. > :35:02.companies. Do we have a change in our general principle of not

:35:03. > :35:06.discussing individual taxpayer data? That has some pitfalls as well as

:35:07. > :35:16.potential benefit -- benefits. The Google issue was one we felt HMRC

:35:17. > :35:22.could be leading a debate on. It was in our report whether that deal was

:35:23. > :35:27.the best deal that could be done. It is worth noting it was based on

:35:28. > :35:34.previous tax rules, not today's tax rules. Effectively we were having a

:35:35. > :35:40.debate on things as they existed several years ago, in some instances

:35:41. > :35:46.11 years back, and also on laws that have no in many cases moved on and

:35:47. > :35:51.changed. What came out of that discussion is looking more widely at

:35:52. > :35:54.HMRC's performance, which we regularly do as a committee. It is

:35:55. > :36:02.encouraging to see some of the figures published around the

:36:03. > :36:08.reduction in the tax gap. It has gone from 14% to 7%. That is

:36:09. > :36:12.welcome. There is more we can do to drive down that extra 7% but it is

:36:13. > :36:18.far better to be talking about 7% than 14%. As has been referred to in

:36:19. > :36:25.exchange is already in this debate, the tax haven where a hedge fund

:36:26. > :36:31.manager can pay a lower percentage rate than the person cleaning their

:36:32. > :36:36.office, was the UK six years ago. Tackling that was, I have always

:36:37. > :36:46.felt, was one of the best things ever done on the previous comment.

:36:47. > :36:49.Someone could be paying a small percentage rate on a very

:36:50. > :36:50.substantial income, a lower rate than the person earning the minimum

:36:51. > :37:04.wage. Moving on to the Crown dependencies,

:37:05. > :37:11.I think there is a number of things I welcome in terms of having the

:37:12. > :37:20.ability for HMRC to get and share information. I agree that we should

:37:21. > :37:28.be as diligent in handing over to tax authorities in developing

:37:29. > :37:34.countries as we are to looking to enforce our own tax. I suspect were

:37:35. > :37:42.always be a debate regarding oppressive regimes, but where the

:37:43. > :37:45.line is about avoiding taxation, we should be prepared to cooperate,

:37:46. > :37:52.providing there are assurances regarding standards of criminal

:37:53. > :37:58.justice systems. In terms of looking at how as a government we engage

:37:59. > :38:03.with those authorities, it is worth bearing in mind some of these

:38:04. > :38:07.regulations are very complex areas. Perhaps there is an issue to be

:38:08. > :38:11.debated that currently reappoint governors effectively acting as the

:38:12. > :38:16.head of state for three years with the term extended bolt to four.

:38:17. > :38:20.Perhaps that is a debate we had office Office colleagues about

:38:21. > :38:26.whether there should be a longer period of appointment to allow the

:38:27. > :38:32.government to hold a relationship with authorities in that alia. And

:38:33. > :38:36.to be able to more engage and give difficult messages on behalf of the

:38:37. > :38:43.UK overall than perhaps a three-year term allows. Governor does not go

:38:44. > :38:48.round in a feathered hat getting saluted, it should be about being

:38:49. > :38:56.part of a strong and lasting wand between the UK and those

:38:57. > :38:58.territories. Looking for support in terms of defence and overseas

:38:59. > :39:16.development, but also his relationship really can

:39:17. > :39:21.discuss issues on which the sovereign but affects us as a whole

:39:22. > :39:25.nation. This is a global problem. Panama is one of the few countries

:39:26. > :39:33.not to have signed up to some of the international agreements. That is

:39:34. > :39:40.one of the key issues here. It should be done as part of a proper

:39:41. > :39:45.debate globally, rather than picking off individual jurisdictions. If we

:39:46. > :39:50.do, people will find the next jurisdiction that is not honouring

:39:51. > :39:59.transparency. For me, this needs to be a wider debate. There needs to be

:40:00. > :40:09.clarity about which types of investments, many people use

:40:10. > :40:15.legitimate and lawful unit trusts and pay their taxes, but at the same

:40:16. > :40:22.time opening the envelope on those shell companies being used as a way

:40:23. > :40:29.of hiding who owns something, so we can have that information and ensure

:40:30. > :40:33.HMRC can get the tax due. In terms of contributing to this debate, I

:40:34. > :40:39.was slightly disappointed in the opening things seem to focus on

:40:40. > :40:43.party political attack than the dead on a measured debate around how we

:40:44. > :40:50.ensure taxes legislated for by this Parliament. In reading the motion, I

:40:51. > :40:56.thought it was strange that was not reference to the recent Public

:40:57. > :41:17.Accounts Committee report regarding the Google taxation Bill. Likewise,

:41:18. > :41:21.the tax transparency Bill. For me, it is welcome we have had a debate

:41:22. > :41:24.today. It is safe to say all of us recognise that there's more work to

:41:25. > :41:30.be done to try capture those revenues that escape all taxation

:41:31. > :41:36.end all good restrictions. And the role we can play in the UK in

:41:37. > :41:40.building up developing nations to crackdown on tax avoidance that

:41:41. > :41:46.costs them even more than it does cost us. I welcome this debate. This

:41:47. > :41:51.is ultimately about ensuring tax rate set here that we believe are

:41:52. > :41:59.there are tax rates that are paid. That is where the nub of this debate

:42:00. > :42:04.comes and future work should focus. Can I just say there are 11 members

:42:05. > :42:10.still wishing to speak. We want to start the wind-up at 3:30pm. If

:42:11. > :42:19.everybody takes eight minutes or less, you will all get in. As

:42:20. > :42:22.co-founder and chair of the all-party group on anti-corruption,

:42:23. > :42:30.I'm pleased to have the opportunity to contribute to this debate. These

:42:31. > :42:33.issues are rightly high on the public agenda. Constituents have

:42:34. > :42:38.contacted me to share concerns. They like many others have a strong sense

:42:39. > :42:43.of the real and the perceived injustice in our system that means

:42:44. > :42:46.the vast majority of people in this country play by the same rules and

:42:47. > :42:58.have very little choice about the contribution they make to the public

:42:59. > :43:09.purse. It is not about anger or envy. It is about those at the top

:43:10. > :43:14.of the income skill who appeared to play by a different set of rules.

:43:15. > :43:20.Government must take steps to re-level the playing field. One

:43:21. > :43:24.assertion that has been made to me is that the solutions are easy. Will

:43:25. > :43:28.I don't necessarily subscribe to that view, I think there are a few

:43:29. > :43:31.relatively simple steps the government could take that will make

:43:32. > :43:35.a significant difference. That would bring about much greater

:43:36. > :43:42.transparency on the ownership of individuals and companies assets at

:43:43. > :43:49.wealth, to enable a clear view about who the beneficiaries are and funds,

:43:50. > :44:02.whether they are held here in the UK or in offshore trusts and accounts.

:44:03. > :44:07.Tax evasion and other criminal activity such as fraud and

:44:08. > :44:11.corruption should be looked at. Too often they go hand in hand. The

:44:12. > :44:15.Prime Minister acknowledged in his statement on Monday on the Panama

:44:16. > :44:20.papers that under current legislation it is difficult to

:44:21. > :44:26.prosecute companies that assist with tax evasion. He is correct. The

:44:27. > :44:32.challenges understated. I will briefly explain why. At present,

:44:33. > :44:39.under UK law, in order to hold a company criminally liable,

:44:40. > :44:42.prosecutors must identify a senior official as the controlling mind of

:44:43. > :44:48.that company, with knowledge of the offence. In an increasingly

:44:49. > :44:54.globalised world where multinational organisations have very complicated

:44:55. > :45:00.structures and management arrangements, it sets an extremely

:45:01. > :45:05.high arc for prosecutors to cross. It contrasts with the situation in

:45:06. > :45:08.the US were a company can be held liable increment the law for the

:45:09. > :45:13.actions of its employees undertaken in the course of their employment.

:45:14. > :45:19.The government seem to acknowledge this inadequacy in the UK law and

:45:20. > :45:22.included puzzles and 2015 manifesto to introduce corporate criminal

:45:23. > :45:29.liability for economic offences. But by September 2015 these proposals

:45:30. > :45:33.were quietly dropped. Only coming to light in a written parliamentary

:45:34. > :45:41.answer. The grounds stated by the Mr were that there is little evidence

:45:42. > :45:45.that economic crime is going unpunished. It is frankly ridiculous

:45:46. > :46:02.assertion. I hope the Panama papers have finally put that notion to bed.

:46:03. > :46:04.It is coolly unacceptable that people are effectively operating

:46:05. > :46:16.with one hand tied behind their back. The inadequacy of our law has

:46:17. > :46:20.been clear for some time. The identification principle is

:46:21. > :46:25.difficult because inevitably the e-mail trail tends to dry up in

:46:26. > :46:30.middle management and this is evidentially hard to prove. I put

:46:31. > :46:34.this point to the premise on Monday. I was glad to hear him commit to

:46:35. > :46:44.going away and looking at the proposals.

:46:45. > :46:54.proposal is to extend the application of the section seven

:46:55. > :46:59.offence which I will explain not only to tax evasion but to all

:47:00. > :47:04.economic crime. This is the nub of the issue. As the Prime Minister

:47:05. > :47:07.announced on Monday, and indeed he had announced previously but there

:47:08. > :47:12.had been no action to follow it up as yet, the government does intend

:47:13. > :47:16.to legislate to hold corporate criminally liable for failing to

:47:17. > :47:22.prevent the facilitation of tax evasion, thereby accepting that the

:47:23. > :47:27.current liability framework for corporate, which does apply to all

:47:28. > :47:33.economic crimes, does not actually work. It proposes to do this by

:47:34. > :47:42.creating an offence under the bribery act. The Labour government

:47:43. > :47:46.introduced this in 2010. It puts the onus on companies to ensure proper

:47:47. > :47:51.compliance procedures and holds them criminally liable if they do not.

:47:52. > :47:56.The model already applies to the offence of bribery and it will now

:47:57. > :48:00.apply to tax evasion under the government's proposals. Why stop at

:48:01. > :48:05.activation? Why not extend it to failure to prevent other forms of

:48:06. > :48:10.economic crime, such as fraud or money-laundering, as promised in the

:48:11. > :48:14.2015 Conservative Party manifesto. It is something the director of the

:48:15. > :48:19.Serious Fraud Office has suggested as a workable solution. In 2013, he

:48:20. > :48:34.highlighted the benefits that such an approach would merely contribute

:48:35. > :48:48.to the corporate culture which created the crash. I will give way.

:48:49. > :49:00.Earlier, she mentioned a parallel with America. Here nobody was held

:49:01. > :49:04.to account. In America they were. The banks in America have paid

:49:05. > :49:09.significant finds as a result of their behaviour head of the crash.

:49:10. > :49:13.It has been more difficult to ensure justice is done Sir. This is the

:49:14. > :49:18.reason why this needs to be urgently addressed. It is a simple and

:49:19. > :49:21.workable solution. The government already intends to legislate for

:49:22. > :49:25.activation and it would be a simple case of extending the number of

:49:26. > :49:30.offences that that extension applies to. I would strongly urge the

:49:31. > :49:34.government to look closely at part two of schedule 17 of the crime and

:49:35. > :49:45.ports act because it sets out a useful list of offences, covering

:49:46. > :49:49.all manner of fraudulent trading. The government's proposed new

:49:50. > :49:54.offence could equally apply to. The work is all done and the ducks lined

:49:55. > :49:59.up, it just needs the government to implement this change. The

:50:00. > :50:04.revelations in the Panama papers represent a pivotal moment. And one

:50:05. > :50:10.which the government must not squander. The Panama papers have not

:50:11. > :50:20.just highlighted issues of tax evasion and avoidance, but issues of

:50:21. > :50:31.money-laundering and crying. And how these companies facilitate it. --

:50:32. > :50:38.crime. The UK Government could send out a serious message. I urge the

:50:39. > :50:42.government to take this important step to arm our law enforcement

:50:43. > :50:48.agencies and courts to properly hold companies to account.

:50:49. > :50:53.It is a great pleasure to speak in this debate and to follow the

:50:54. > :51:01.honourable lady, who made an excellent speech. There is an elite

:51:02. > :51:05.who seem to live by different rules. I agree with that. She summarised it

:51:06. > :51:15.extremely well. What I wanted to talk about, was about those

:51:16. > :51:19.underlying issues, why is there such public anger about this? Tax

:51:20. > :51:28.avoidance and evasion have been going on for hundreds of years.

:51:29. > :51:32.Smuggling was tax evasion. Why is there now a crescendo of public

:51:33. > :51:38.anger about this issue? It cannot just be because we had the Panama

:51:39. > :51:42.papers. I would argue it is due to underlying economics and those

:51:43. > :51:44.features that emerge in our society after the great credit crunch. --

:51:45. > :51:57.fissures. The government keeps saying we are

:51:58. > :52:03.all in this together. Quite clearly we are not. We have a

:52:04. > :52:07.record low in the number of workless households at the moment. That is

:52:08. > :52:11.the single biggest cause of poverty. This government has a strong record

:52:12. > :52:18.in dealing with poverty. I will be coming on to that.

:52:19. > :52:22.I'm happy to give way. I have to challenge on that point. There are

:52:23. > :52:31.more people in work who are in poverty than ever before. I simply

:52:32. > :52:35.do not agree with that. But I did want to start by focusing on the

:52:36. > :52:43.action that has been taken. I do not think the anger is due to a lack of

:52:44. > :52:48.action. It is lovely to have somebody popular a speech! So many

:52:49. > :52:52.interventions! In terms of the action taken, as my honourable

:52:53. > :52:59.friend said earlier, there has been a 50% fall in the corporation tax

:53:00. > :53:02.gap. The honourable gentleman has been

:53:03. > :53:06.very generous on interventions. Would he agree that one of the

:53:07. > :53:10.things that really used to anger people was the fact that a cleaner

:53:11. > :53:16.in an office could be paying less than a hedge fund manager working in

:53:17. > :53:21.it, and that is one of the things that was tackled here in the UK? An

:53:22. > :53:25.excellent point. It was a fundamental injustice and we did

:53:26. > :53:29.deal with it. In the latest budget we have announced a series of

:53:30. > :53:37.measures to tackle tax avoidance, measures about hybrid mismatch,

:53:38. > :53:44.about abuse of VAT evasion am a the General Anti-Abuse Rule. The

:53:45. > :53:48.government will be introducing a new penalty in relation to the General

:53:49. > :53:52.Anti-Abuse Rule. We have also mentioned offshore of oil cetera. We

:53:53. > :54:00.have a long list of measures. In terms of this border point about the

:54:01. > :54:04.wider economics, I founded a small business in 2004. A mortgage broker

:54:05. > :54:09.specialising in Shared Ownership. It was obvious to me in the build-up to

:54:10. > :54:13.2008 what was coming down the track. What I feel the government was doing

:54:14. > :54:19.was effectively trying to tackle inequality through debt. We had a

:54:20. > :54:23.situation where you could have two potential home-buyers, one of whom

:54:24. > :54:30.was wealthy, well-educated, and another with less good skills and a

:54:31. > :54:36.less salary. They could both obtain similar levels of mortgage in those

:54:37. > :54:41.days. Self certified mortgages, sub-prime etc. We know where this

:54:42. > :54:46.lead. In terms of public debt, we had tax credits. The main measure to

:54:47. > :54:56.deal with inequality was tax credits. A ?30 billion increase in

:54:57. > :55:02.in work benefits. I will carry on. We paid for that on the National

:55:03. > :55:05.overdraft. An increase of ?30 billion in benefits spending at a

:55:06. > :55:13.time when we were doing pretty well as a country and when the world

:55:14. > :55:17.economy was relatively strong. He seems to be saying that less

:55:18. > :55:22.intelligent people should not be allowed mortgages. Is that what he

:55:23. > :55:27.was saying? I think you should withdraw that. I find that genuinely

:55:28. > :55:32.offensive. What I said was the rules were very lax. You could have some

:55:33. > :55:38.self certification, which when somebody on a low salary could get a

:55:39. > :55:44.large mortgage, just like somebody on a large salary. This led to a

:55:45. > :55:48.huge crash in 2008. I believe we have one fundamental question. How

:55:49. > :55:53.we go about, in the current economic context, trying to deliver a fairer

:55:54. > :55:58.economy, which we all want, where more people share in the growth we

:55:59. > :56:02.have been able to deliver. Yes, we do need strong measures against tax

:56:03. > :56:09.avoidance. We do need the public to feel we are in this together, that

:56:10. > :56:14.we are paying our fair share. Does he welcomed the fact that it is

:56:15. > :56:19.under this government that the top 1% of earners is paying 28% of tax,

:56:20. > :56:24.a far higher percentage than was the case under Labour? There are shouts

:56:25. > :56:29.from opposite because this point was made earlier by me. It is worth

:56:30. > :56:39.repeating. I am delighted my honourable friend made it. It is

:56:40. > :56:43.such a strong point. This point about the richest 1% paying the

:56:44. > :56:48.largest amount of tax has been bandied about today as though it is

:56:49. > :56:51.a sign of virtue. It is a sign of the gross inequality in the country.

:56:52. > :56:59.That is something that needs to be addressed. The rich are paying more

:57:00. > :57:03.tax. How is that an unequal society? Let me talk about the measures we

:57:04. > :57:07.should be pursuing. Yes, we should be cracking down on aggressive tax

:57:08. > :57:11.avoidance, but the source of measures that we need if we are to

:57:12. > :57:15.help people across society, I things like the national Living Wage,

:57:16. > :57:21.introduced on the 1st of April by a Conservative government. There are

:57:22. > :57:25.those who say the the National Living Wage is not generous and.

:57:26. > :57:31.They have obviously not been reading the Guardian. The Guardian recently

:57:32. > :57:38.used the big Mac index, as used by the Economist, to prove that the

:57:39. > :57:42.minimum wage we will have with the National Minimum Wage is more

:57:43. > :57:45.generous than in any other European country except Luxembourg. It is

:57:46. > :57:50.only in Luxembourg where you can buy more burgers than you can with the

:57:51. > :57:54.minimum wage in this country. The honourable gentleman asked what this

:57:55. > :57:58.has to do with tax avoidance. The underlying issue is about fairness,

:57:59. > :58:02.is about how you achieve an economy in which there is a widespread sense

:58:03. > :58:07.that everyone has an opportunity and the chance to earn a decent wage. We

:58:08. > :58:14.are delivering that inform or adverse circumstances than the

:58:15. > :58:18.government before. -- in far more adverse circumstances. We had the

:58:19. > :58:25.biggest deficit since the Second World War. 11.5% of GDP, which we

:58:26. > :58:28.have cut by two thirds. It is difficult to go your way out of a

:58:29. > :58:35.problem like that and deliver fairness. The honourable gentleman

:58:36. > :58:44.keeps chuntering body is not adding a great deal to the debate.

:58:45. > :58:48.My honourable friend was talking about fairness. He is talking about

:58:49. > :58:52.some of the challenges we had with the deficit we inherited. In those

:58:53. > :58:56.circumstances, not only have we been shifting income tax from the lowest

:58:57. > :59:01.paid to the highest paid, but we have also been helping small

:59:02. > :59:05.businesses. We will take many small businesses out of business rates

:59:06. > :59:08.altogether whilst making multinationals pay more. My

:59:09. > :59:13.honourable friend is absolutely right to mention small businesses. I

:59:14. > :59:17.used to say to people I run a small business but if you measured is on

:59:18. > :59:23.the mag of corporation tax we paid, we were bigger than Google. If you

:59:24. > :59:30.run a small business, you have to comply. I agree with the honourable

:59:31. > :59:35.lady in that there is an elite that lives by different rules. We have to

:59:36. > :59:39.deal with that. We must not run away from the key point, which my

:59:40. > :59:44.honourable friend, the financial Secretary, also concluded with. When

:59:45. > :59:47.we talk about the transparency, the transparency that matters to the

:59:48. > :59:51.public is our ideals and our beliefs. What do we really believe?

:59:52. > :59:56.I fundamentally believe in a free-market, I believe in

:59:57. > :00:01.capitalism, I believe in individuals using their creativity to earn their

:00:02. > :00:06.way in the world. We cannot go back to paying our way through debt and

:00:07. > :00:10.unsustainable public finances. In those circumstances, yes, we need to

:00:11. > :00:15.maximise the tax we get. We also need to maximise the investment into

:00:16. > :00:20.this country from these countries we have heard chastised by the Labour

:00:21. > :00:26.front bench. They are massive employers in this country. We need

:00:27. > :00:29.to it be expanding the exports. We need a positive free enterprise

:00:30. > :00:33.agenda which adds a fair sense that companies are paying their fair

:00:34. > :00:37.share, that individuals are, but ultimately does not denigrate the

:00:38. > :00:40.free market but create sustainable growth to deliver prosperity for

:00:41. > :00:45.all. Order, order. I have now to announce

:00:46. > :00:51.the result of the deferred division on employment agencies etc. The ayes

:00:52. > :01:01.worth 307, the noes War 241. The ayes have it. Everybody speaking at

:01:02. > :01:05.just over ten minutes rather than eight minutes. It is about seven

:01:06. > :01:12.minutes or less now if we want to get everybody in.

:01:13. > :01:17.I want to start off by saying that what has been highlighted by the

:01:18. > :01:23.publication of the so-called panama papers is that we do not have a fair

:01:24. > :01:28.tax system. We are not all in it together, as my honourable friend,

:01:29. > :01:34.the member for Newcastle North, mentioned, said very eloquently.

:01:35. > :01:37.Those who have been exposed by this scandal have knowingly exploited tax

:01:38. > :01:42.avoidance measures for their own personal financial gain. While not

:01:43. > :01:47.technically illegal, aggressive tax avoidance has been against the

:01:48. > :01:53.spirit and the intention of the law and the will of this House. What is

:01:54. > :02:00.really shocking is that this has included heads of government,

:02:01. > :02:08.including our own Prime Minister. And it poses fundamental questions

:02:09. > :02:11.about politics and politicians. Once again it threatens the public

:02:12. > :02:19.confidence and trust in politics and politicians. These are people who

:02:20. > :02:25.are meant to be providing leadership to our very citizens. It calls into

:02:26. > :02:33.question the attitudes and values, as well as the motives for seeking

:02:34. > :02:38.public office. Does my honourable friend feel that

:02:39. > :02:42.comments made, for instance, by the member for Buckland and Milton, who

:02:43. > :02:47.said that if you are not wealthy you are a low achiever, as to the

:02:48. > :02:54.distrust of the public towards politicians? I think it adds to the

:02:55. > :03:04.dissatisfaction with politics and politicians as a whole. It was a

:03:05. > :03:09.very insulting statement. As has already been said on both sides of

:03:10. > :03:13.the House, it is more evidence of a powerful and indifferent elite for

:03:14. > :03:17.whom the accumulation of wealth is paramount at the expense of their

:03:18. > :03:24.fellow citizens. The evasion and avoidance of tax means there is less

:03:25. > :03:32.money collected by the Exchequer for pensioners, disabled people and

:03:33. > :03:36.public servants. Fundamentally, dodging paying a fair share of taxes

:03:37. > :03:41.contributing to growing inequality in this country and across the

:03:42. > :03:46.world. Tax havens are at the heart of this. Many of you will have seen

:03:47. > :03:52.the Oxfam report last month, which says the UK heads the world's

:03:53. > :03:58.biggest financial secrecy network, centred on the city of London.

:03:59. > :04:02.Collectively it is estimated to account for nearly a quarter of

:04:03. > :04:07.global financial services provided to nonresidents within a given

:04:08. > :04:11.jurisdiction. The UK takes prime position for all jurisdictions

:04:12. > :04:15.across the world in the tax Justice network's financial security index.

:04:16. > :04:24.Hardly something we should be proud of. The National audit of it has

:04:25. > :04:28.estimated the tax gap at 34 billion pounds per year. -- the national

:04:29. > :04:37.audit Office. ?1 billion more than in 2009. This is the equivalent of a

:04:38. > :04:45.third of the NHS budget. It accounts for tax fraud, which includes tax

:04:46. > :04:50.evasion, which amounts to about half of the tax gap. If we consider the

:04:51. > :04:54.cuts being proposed by the government in the budget last month

:04:55. > :05:00.to disabled people around the personal independence statement, the

:05:01. > :05:06.half after tax gap some would have paid for a all of the annual budget

:05:07. > :05:16.for people on disability benefit. The HMRC compliance units tackle all

:05:17. > :05:20.aspects of noncompliance. According to the NAO, they do not record how

:05:21. > :05:27.much of the revenue they recover has been successfully recovered in

:05:28. > :05:34.relation to tax evasion. But they do estimate that this is about 30%. The

:05:35. > :05:41.HMRC have to balance between what they can get in quickly, low hanging

:05:42. > :05:45.fruit, low risk, low visibility, lower vein -- game, and those that

:05:46. > :05:50.are higher visibility, the more context come in all cases. This is

:05:51. > :05:56.where political leadership comes in and has been seriously absent. I

:05:57. > :06:00.will refer to this in a moment. In spite of a G8 commitment in 2013

:06:01. > :06:05.other common reporting standard at global level, the government has

:06:06. > :06:10.been obfuscating around these measures. I welcome what has been

:06:11. > :06:18.proposed by the government this week, but again, why now, six years

:06:19. > :06:23.later? I would be grateful if the Minister could respond to me in

:06:24. > :06:30.terms of how much of the ?266 million that has been specifically

:06:31. > :06:36.allocated to address tax fraud. I also would be grateful as well as to

:06:37. > :06:42.while we have got additional staff now acting on tax evasion, but why

:06:43. > :06:48.was it that nearly 6000 HMRC staff were let go between 2013 and 2015.

:06:49. > :06:49.And has the 10% reduction in the HMRC since 2008 affected the

:06:50. > :07:01.collection of tax evaded monies? I welcome the additional measures

:07:02. > :07:06.taken, but it is clear that in terms of my mailbox and I'm sure other

:07:07. > :07:14.members of the same, of the absolute outrage. It is palpable in terms of

:07:15. > :07:24.public anger around this. The Member for Blaydon summed it up perfectly

:07:25. > :07:32.sane this abuse from a tiny minority is shocking. I quote from the

:07:33. > :07:36.Institute for Fiscal Studies. We have had aggressive budget over the

:07:37. > :07:42.last six years, which have shown that people on low and middle

:07:43. > :07:47.incomes are proportionally worse off regarding tax and social security

:07:48. > :07:59.measures. Projections of the next five years are of increasing

:08:00. > :08:05.poverty. It is in this context that this is so shocking. The top 1% in

:08:06. > :08:11.the last 15 years have increased wealth by 79%. ?3.7 million per

:08:12. > :08:28.person. Some in the bottom 10% saw a rise of just 45%. The Prime Minister

:08:29. > :08:35.admitted benefiting in an offshore trust. The Prime Minister opposed

:08:36. > :08:42.the beneficiaries of offshore trusts being named under EU money wondering

:08:43. > :08:47.rules. Vertical leadership has been absent and contrary to what can be

:08:48. > :08:55.deemed as being fair. I'm conscious of the time. The proposals we have

:08:56. > :09:04.made will make a real difference. I hope members look at these. Thank

:09:05. > :09:08.you. I wasn't sure at the start of the debate because I had no

:09:09. > :09:15.intention of speaking. I listen to the Shadow Chancellor's contribution

:09:16. > :09:21.and found myself understanding his frustrations and the points he was

:09:22. > :09:27.making. The problem is his solution appears to be some sort of socialist

:09:28. > :09:31.utopia. I personally don't see any example in history of that working.

:09:32. > :09:37.But it forces me to consider what could be a viable solution to these

:09:38. > :09:42.states of affairs. Understandably, as many colleagues have already ably

:09:43. > :09:49.illustrated in their speeches, the general public are angry. The

:09:50. > :09:55.frustrated. There is a palpable sense for breakdown in trust, not

:09:56. > :10:00.just for us in this chamber, but also in systems of government. The

:10:01. > :10:07.tax system, the social work system, the latest dreadful case in Burton.

:10:08. > :10:15.Across-the-board, public are deeply cynical. This is not the latest tax

:10:16. > :10:18.scandal. We have had Google and many others. I can understand why the

:10:19. > :10:24.average man and woman in the street is thinking, if it is good for me,

:10:25. > :10:32.why is it not good for them? The response should not be hypocrisy. It

:10:33. > :10:37.certainly shouldn't be envy. It should be, what can we practically

:10:38. > :10:42.do in this globalised economy we all inhabit? I will readily admit there

:10:43. > :10:59.are feelings in the current capitalist model we have. I will

:11:00. > :11:14.give way. He mentioned earlier on public anger. I think the public are

:11:15. > :11:20.weary of what is going on after six years. The recession and the

:11:21. > :11:23.measures to deal with the recession are too harsh and have gone on for

:11:24. > :11:31.too long. That is why the public feel they are bearing the biggest

:11:32. > :11:33.part of the Burton. That is a political and philosophical point.

:11:34. > :11:39.You don't believe that reducing the size of the state is in the

:11:40. > :11:45.interests of the majority. I do. That is where we were diverted. I

:11:46. > :11:48.think you are right. There is this sense that the middle are carrying

:11:49. > :11:58.the burden and the very rich are not. All of these things we have

:11:59. > :12:02.been talking about, I wish I had the money to invest in trust or

:12:03. > :12:14.elsewhere, but I believe it is legal. If it is legal I believe it

:12:15. > :12:19.is legitimate. The reality is the system is where we need to look

:12:20. > :12:29.first. The tax scandal I referred to earlier regarding corporation tax of

:12:30. > :12:34.Google and the like, my response is that corporation tax is out of date

:12:35. > :12:43.in a globalised economy. Let scrap it and get rid of it. Then we can

:12:44. > :12:50.move it to a form of taxation not so easily avoidable. Employee taxation,

:12:51. > :12:58.a property tax or a sales tax, whatever you choose, the idea that

:12:59. > :13:09.there should be a corporation tax in this world I think is nonsense. I

:13:10. > :13:13.think we should scrap stamp duty. Find another way of levying it.

:13:14. > :13:20.Maybe you should be taxed for the ownership of an ongoing basis or as

:13:21. > :13:24.council tax. Clearly these taxes are not fit for purpose. The art easily

:13:25. > :13:34.avoidable. Finally, the other challenge we have is regarding

:13:35. > :13:39.equity. A lot has been said about the inheritance tax arrangements of

:13:40. > :13:53.the Prime Minister. I totally expected. Anyone with any wealth

:13:54. > :13:59.would mitigate against that from happening. How do we facilitate the

:14:00. > :14:05.transfer of the wealth built up from those poor after the war? At the

:14:06. > :14:10.moment, we don't really have a system that is working. We need one

:14:11. > :14:15.that works. Regarding transparency and the need for simplification, I

:14:16. > :14:21.am quite attracted to the Scandinavian and Norwegian model of

:14:22. > :14:26.publishing tax and wealth online. I personally would support that. I

:14:27. > :14:30.have nothing to hide as far as I am aware. When I mention this to

:14:31. > :14:38.conservative colleagues, the always worry about privacy and the like. If

:14:39. > :14:41.that is the case, I don't think the Prime Minister should have published

:14:42. > :14:46.his tax returns and nor should anyone else. It is either all or

:14:47. > :14:53.nothing. Each and every one of us, we each have a sheer in our

:14:54. > :14:58.democracy. We each have a share in Arab government functioning. For

:14:59. > :15:01.that she to be valued, we must all trust that it is legitimate and it

:15:02. > :15:08.is they are. That everyone is playing by the rules. I personally

:15:09. > :15:12.am drawn to the Norwegian model with the necessary clarifications

:15:13. > :15:17.regarding legitimate application, but I don't see any reason why we

:15:18. > :15:31.shouldn't do that. I shall give way. Which Norwegian model? I am of

:15:32. > :15:34.course talking about the tax system. That have been some concerns

:15:35. > :15:42.regarding extortion and potential for kidnapping the very wealthy,

:15:43. > :15:48.however the legitimate application, I personally don't see a problem

:15:49. > :15:52.with it. Everyone will be interested for the first couple of years, but

:15:53. > :15:57.then I think it will settle down. In closing, the reason I have

:15:58. > :16:02.contributed today and the reason I feel strongly about this is if we

:16:03. > :16:07.don't have trust, not just in are, but trust in this establishment and

:16:08. > :16:11.trust in government, you cannot actually achieve very much. If you

:16:12. > :16:15.look at the challenges this country faces regarding long-term

:16:16. > :16:20.sustainability of health and wealth, particularly pensions, there will

:16:21. > :16:24.have to be difficult decisions. For those decisions to be in the medley,

:16:25. > :16:31.we have to be trusted. Everything we do here should be about that. That

:16:32. > :16:38.is why I think we should scrap taxes which are out of date and have long

:16:39. > :16:48.been so is a huge priority. I'm grateful for this interesting

:16:49. > :16:52.speech. I want to make an intervention. Regarding tax

:16:53. > :16:56.transparency, does he feel that tax transparency will automatically lead

:16:57. > :17:06.to a greater feel of trust amongst the electorate? I feel that

:17:07. > :17:12.transparency may not lead to greater trust. Initially, I would agree that

:17:13. > :17:20.it won't. If you look at Norway, the richest man in Norway, he was

:17:21. > :17:24.publishing his wealth and income. Here is very popular because it

:17:25. > :17:27.turns out he is an extensive philanthropist. People don't have a

:17:28. > :17:31.problem with people being successful. What there is a

:17:32. > :17:37.suspicion of is that there is something underhand. As the Prime

:17:38. > :17:46.Minister says, transparency is the best disinfectant. I'm conscious of

:17:47. > :17:51.the time. Trust matters. Without trust, you can't actually implement

:17:52. > :17:54.what is necessary. Anything the government can do to encourage the

:17:55. > :18:07.public to trust in the system and trust in this institution, it gets

:18:08. > :18:11.my support. This issue is all about trust. The public have reacted so

:18:12. > :18:18.fiercely against recent events because there is a collapse of trust

:18:19. > :18:24.in as. The expenses scandal, this screaming nightmare we went through.

:18:25. > :18:29.Trust from the public went to rock bottom. Now it is subterranean. It

:18:30. > :18:33.is worse since then. There is an examination going on of our

:18:34. > :18:39.standards in this House. I would urge everyone to contribute.

:18:40. > :18:45.Democracy itself, the political system, is under threat. Quite

:18:46. > :18:48.rightly the country is angry when they see the difference, the

:18:49. > :18:53.unfairness in the system. We had the most insulting speech the other day

:18:54. > :18:59.in this House that is going too deep in that sense of alienation between

:19:00. > :19:06.that side and the other. Because the person who made that speech, I

:19:07. > :19:12.recall an incident how he revealed to the newspapers how he was making

:19:13. > :19:15.some of his money. Teapot the Council house of an elderly

:19:16. > :19:20.gentleman in London who I think was a neighbour on the basis that can

:19:21. > :19:25.size was going to appreciate greatly in value. The neighbour was not

:19:26. > :19:31.going to live very long. The agreement the honourable member made

:19:32. > :19:37.was that he would give the man the money to buy the House, the tenant

:19:38. > :19:40.would buy it, give him the discount for being there for years, then the

:19:41. > :19:48.House would be inherited by the honourable member. This is Tory

:19:49. > :19:54.morale at a. This is morally repugnant. This is not the right to

:19:55. > :20:01.buy a. It is the right to greet. And that is the man who lectured as the

:20:02. > :20:04.other day. I'm trying to castigate those who he described

:20:05. > :20:08.contemptuously as low achievers. The difficulty we have is the gulf

:20:09. > :20:14.between what the government is saying and what the government is

:20:15. > :20:18.doing. In March 2010, the Prime Minister made an impassioned speech

:20:19. > :20:22.about how he was going to clean up lobbying. He was going to come in

:20:23. > :20:29.and sort it out. Where are we today? Six years later, the lobbying act

:20:30. > :20:32.has gone through, life for trade unions and charities is more

:20:33. > :20:39.troublesome than it was before, but the big corporate lobbyists don't

:20:40. > :20:44.have to declare whose clients are. Has been no reform that is

:20:45. > :20:50.worthwhile. He has worried the minnows in the shallows, but the

:20:51. > :20:56.great fat salmon are still swimming by unhindered. Have done the same

:20:57. > :21:03.with this question where there is no sincerity in their determination to

:21:04. > :21:09.tackle the tax savings. I give the example which has a fascinating

:21:10. > :21:14.story about a gentleman who sees himself as the spokesman for the

:21:15. > :21:20.Cayman Islands. He mocked the Prime Minister and said he had no

:21:21. > :21:25.intention of carrying out his threats to deal with the tax havens.

:21:26. > :21:29.It is a political gesture. That is has worked. On the political

:21:30. > :21:33.gesture. We have heard the First Minister for the Cayman Islands is

:21:34. > :21:41.putting two fingers up to the Prime Minister. They're not going to take

:21:42. > :21:43.any notice. Let's look at the remarkable history of Lord bring

:21:44. > :21:53.Castro. It is a remarkable story which shows the history of this

:21:54. > :21:58.House. In 2012I made a complaint about his behaviour. It was taken to

:21:59. > :22:05.a committee in the House to examine. What the complaint was about was I

:22:06. > :22:11.was suggesting he was in breach of the parliamentary code of conduct.

:22:12. > :22:16.Lobbying the Chancellor because of taxes affecting the Cayman Islands

:22:17. > :22:24.and he facilitated role-playing -- all paid expenses trip for members

:22:25. > :22:28.of this House to the Cayman Islands. The Lords Standards Committee held

:22:29. > :22:29.an investigation into this and it was a remarkable document that they

:22:30. > :22:41.produced. The Lord explained that he was

:22:42. > :22:46.taking thousands of pounds per month in payment from the Cayman Islands

:22:47. > :22:51.but he was not lobbying Parliament or government, he was lobbying

:22:52. > :22:57.members. Or the other way round. There was a spurious excuse he gave.

:22:58. > :23:02.Quite remarkably, the decision taken in 2012, that he had not been in

:23:03. > :23:10.breach of any rules of the House. Two years later the contract that he

:23:11. > :23:16.signed was leaked. It appeared in it that what he said was that he would

:23:17. > :23:20.promote the Cayman Islands in the UK and Europe by liaising with and

:23:21. > :23:24.making representations with UK ministers, foreign and Commonwealth

:23:25. > :23:29.officers and members of the House of Lords. He put up a spirited defence.

:23:30. > :23:35.He said he may have signed the contract but he had forgotten what

:23:36. > :23:39.he had agreed to. He had no intention of doing what it said in

:23:40. > :23:45.the contract. This is the most egregious breach of the code of

:23:46. > :23:50.conduct in this House. Order. The honourable member knows

:23:51. > :23:56.that he is not to criticise members of the other House directly or

:23:57. > :24:01.personally. He has been reporting -- Cording from reports until now but

:24:02. > :24:07.if he could desist from directly criticising other members of the

:24:08. > :24:13.House, I would be grateful. I have dealt with that matter now. What we

:24:14. > :24:17.must say to the the Government is that if we fail -- they fail to act

:24:18. > :24:22.against their own members, who are not trying to stop the abuses of tax

:24:23. > :24:29.havens, but are actually lubricating them, how can we take them

:24:30. > :24:33.seriously? I think we have two say -- to say that this has happened

:24:34. > :24:38.because it might expose the corruption that is so endemic, and

:24:39. > :24:44.huge sums that are available, that are going around and disappearing

:24:45. > :24:55.into tax havens. Light has been shone on this. I believe there is a

:24:56. > :25:00.political agenda. We do not what it is. It may be a sinister one. I do

:25:01. > :25:04.repeat the point I made earlier that one of the curious things here is

:25:05. > :25:13.what is happening with other nations. China has 44 billion in the

:25:14. > :25:18.Cayman Islands. And in the Virgin Islands they have got 49 billion.

:25:19. > :25:27.These are huge sums of money. This is only part of the programme that

:25:28. > :25:32.we have, with possible revelations still to come. This pivotal scandal,

:25:33. > :25:38.revelation, will spread for decades, I believe. I am curious with the

:25:39. > :25:46.government's reluctance to act against China in many other ways. We

:25:47. > :25:49.have done a dreadful deal, financially disastrous deal, that

:25:50. > :25:54.might give us the most expensive electricity in the world, but a deal

:25:55. > :25:59.which is now collapsing at Hinkley Point. The government seems to want

:26:00. > :26:02.'s to ingratiate themselves with the Chinese government and because of

:26:03. > :26:14.that they are going soft on them in many ways. They are not taking sharp

:26:15. > :26:18.action against them against the undercutting of the steel industry.

:26:19. > :26:22.We have a strange relation with the Cayman Islands and we do provide

:26:23. > :26:26.them with great advantages, providing their defence for them.

:26:27. > :26:29.But this permissiveness from the government must stop and we look for

:26:30. > :26:32.the anti-corruption conference for the government to take the tough

:26:33. > :26:38.line they have promised to take. They have not done it before.

:26:39. > :26:41.Let's see them do it. I am sorry to have to say that everybody has gone

:26:42. > :26:46.the way over my informal speech limit. I will have two in four --

:26:47. > :26:51.impose a formal speech limit of six minutes and I hope people will not

:26:52. > :26:57.take too many interventions. I welcome the opportunity to talk in

:26:58. > :27:02.this debate. While I welcome the intervention that has been taken to

:27:03. > :27:08.tackle tax avoidance, I do feel the events in the past few days and

:27:09. > :27:13.particularly this afternoon is more about the politics of envy. We now

:27:14. > :27:18.see that the top 1% of earners are actually paying 28% of income tax.

:27:19. > :27:23.Those figures are likely to grow. Just with the figures released in

:27:24. > :27:27.the past couple of days, from the Chancellor, from the Prime Minister,

:27:28. > :27:35.we see evidence that those who earn more, pay more, with the Prime

:27:36. > :27:41.Minister paneer lea ?76,000 vehicle tax, which is double the amount I

:27:42. > :27:45.learned as a nurse a few months ago. If you earn more, you do indeed pay

:27:46. > :27:49.more. I take the comments of the member for Newport West in saying

:27:50. > :27:54.there is a difference between what is said in this House and what is

:27:55. > :27:57.done. Members opposite talk about reducing inequality in taxation but

:27:58. > :28:02.then oppose measures which have seen 3 million people, the lowest paid

:28:03. > :28:06.people in this country, taken out of tax altogether in the last few

:28:07. > :28:10.weeks. Members opposite voted against measures not just in the

:28:11. > :28:15.budget just gone, but in the budget last year, which froze fuel duty,

:28:16. > :28:22.VAT, Insurance. Again, helping the lowest paid people in this country.

:28:23. > :28:27.And this from a party who introduced the 10p tax rate, which actually hit

:28:28. > :28:33.the lowest paid in this country. We on this side will take no lectures

:28:34. > :28:38.on tax equality. In the short time that I have, I would just want to

:28:39. > :28:45.touch on the subject of inheritance tax, which members opposite seemed

:28:46. > :28:51.to lead with politics of March. And I assume that inheritance tax is

:28:52. > :28:57.just there to tackle those who have a high income and a lot of assets.

:28:58. > :28:59.Actually, as a member of Parliament for a constituency in the

:29:00. > :29:04.south-east, I am seeing more and more low-income families who,

:29:05. > :29:08.through no fault of their own, have seen their family homes increase in

:29:09. > :29:16.price, and now falling to inheritance tax. They are having to

:29:17. > :29:20.move out of their family home when the inheritance tax is due. They are

:29:21. > :29:26.acid rich but income poor. People like myself as a nurse, teachers,

:29:27. > :29:30.trainers, who cannot afford to pay inheritance tax, they are having to

:29:31. > :29:38.leave their local areas. That a particular issue in London and the

:29:39. > :29:44.south-east. It is very misleading to suggest only people on high incomes

:29:45. > :29:47.pay inheritance tax. A couple of other points I want to bring up in

:29:48. > :29:52.the few minutes we have is that this feeling that success is just

:29:53. > :29:57.measured in wealth is absolutely wrong. I think the honourable member

:29:58. > :30:01.for South staffer said this. Actually, we do not just measure

:30:02. > :30:04.success in terms of wealth, but neither should we penalise those who

:30:05. > :30:09.have done well. It will be a sorry day of this country becomes a place

:30:10. > :30:13.where if you have done well, you are contributing to your local economy,

:30:14. > :30:17.you are employing people, that you should be penalised, and not just

:30:18. > :30:26.penalised but be frowned upon. It is the party opposite that is trying to

:30:27. > :30:30.help people. We are the party of low taxation whether you are a rich or

:30:31. > :30:35.poor. I see members laughing. I welcome the measures this government

:30:36. > :30:39.has taken. I welcome the crackdown this government has taken on illegal

:30:40. > :30:46.tax avoiders and I welcome the measures they have introduced to

:30:47. > :30:51.take... I hope members opposite will desist from this politics of envy.

:30:52. > :31:05.And deal with the problem of tax avoidance. I agree completely, it

:31:06. > :31:11.was utterly wrong that a cleaner was paying more tax than the hedge fund

:31:12. > :31:14.members. Thank God that cleaner was getting the national minimum Wage,

:31:15. > :31:26.which was registered by the party opposite. -- resisted. The Liberal

:31:27. > :31:29.Democrats. And also, I welcome the fact that low paid the blurb and

:31:30. > :31:36.taken off the threshold -- tax threshold. 2.5% of the workforce

:31:37. > :31:44.would not have been taxed no matter what the level because they are paid

:31:45. > :31:49.so abysmal. Public sector workers have seen the tax threshold rise and

:31:50. > :31:55.I've seen their pay frozen or cut for the last eight days. You have to

:31:56. > :32:01.look at the big picture. The Prime Minister was right when he came here

:32:02. > :32:04.on Monday. Nobody should tread juices that. It was wrong. The

:32:05. > :32:10.attack on his mother was not right either. It is normal and right that

:32:11. > :32:18.parents want to help their kids. And in principle, if you're dad or your

:32:19. > :32:22.mother has expertise in any field, you would expect them to use that

:32:23. > :32:27.knowledge. That applies to stop brokers, stockmen, bakers and

:32:28. > :32:32.bankers. But the real problem this has exposed is the range of

:32:33. > :32:35.opportunities that are only opened to the witch -- Ridge, wealthy and

:32:36. > :32:40.powerful in this nation, and this is what proves that we are simply not

:32:41. > :32:47.all in this together. Whichever way this is dressed up, what is clear is

:32:48. > :32:50.that those in the know have not just got the opportunity and good fortune

:32:51. > :32:54.to make money, it is also claimed when they have got that money there

:32:55. > :32:58.are many avenues open to them to keep their hands on that money. It

:32:59. > :33:01.is one of the reasons why eyebrows are raised in the country and in

:33:02. > :33:09.this House when members opposite push through cuts to income tax from

:33:10. > :33:14.50% to 45%. And have pushed through huge rises at the level in which

:33:15. > :33:18.inheritance tax cuts in because they personally were going to gain from

:33:19. > :33:26.that. If anybody else was doing it, you would be saying it was criminal.

:33:27. > :33:33.When the Prime Minister, who earns ?150,000 per year in a job which is

:33:34. > :33:38.really hard, he totted up with ?50,000 per year by renting out his

:33:39. > :33:48.house. He also get a -- gets another ?40,000 per year from his savings

:33:49. > :33:51.and his investments. Then he says to the poor people of this country, I

:33:52. > :34:01.am sorry, mate, you have to cough up the bedroom tax. People on benefits

:34:02. > :34:08.Irving told they do not need more money. Therefore, they have to give

:34:09. > :34:12.back 30 quid a week. Public servants in this country are told time and

:34:13. > :34:18.time again for the eighth year running, they must accept a real cut

:34:19. > :34:23.in their living standards. I thank my honourable friend

:34:24. > :34:28.forgiving way. I had a conversation with one of the members opposite and

:34:29. > :34:33.they suggested to me that members here should declare their own earned

:34:34. > :34:40.earnings. Does that no -- does my honourable friend know what that

:34:41. > :34:50.means? I have not got a clue. I'm sure the ministers may be able to

:34:51. > :34:56.answer. We also have the Chancellor, getting rental income from his house

:34:57. > :35:01.because he lives in Downing Street. And dividend payments of ?44,000 per

:35:02. > :35:06.year. What does he say to nurses, care workers, prison officers,

:35:07. > :35:14.police officers and tax collectors? You must work harder, you must work

:35:15. > :35:18.longer, you must accept the fact that your pension is going to change

:35:19. > :35:22.and you must except the fact you are going to have to work longer before

:35:23. > :35:28.you get it. How can we expect steelworkers in this country, facing

:35:29. > :35:31.the possibility of a life on the dole, how can we expect them... We

:35:32. > :35:42.understand what you are going through.

:35:43. > :35:49.Was... People are fed up, ordinary people in this country are fed up

:35:50. > :35:52.carrying the can for the mistakes of the bitch in this country. Mistakes

:35:53. > :35:59.which led us into the economic crisis. -- the rich. Men and women

:36:00. > :36:02.will never get the chance to save anything in the first place let

:36:03. > :36:07.alone discredit away in the Caribbean or the Virgin Islands or

:36:08. > :36:10.the Channel Islands, where there are no questions asked as long as you

:36:11. > :36:17.know the drill. In two weeks the trades union Bill will return to

:36:18. > :36:23.this House. They will face even more restrictions, the trade unions,

:36:24. > :36:26.under the sad reality. The honourable lady from Lewis mentioned

:36:27. > :36:35.earlier about trade unions not paying corporation tax. They are in

:36:36. > :36:41.fully audited accounts that have been signed off. Why don't we

:36:42. > :36:46.subject financial markets and regulators and dealers to the same

:36:47. > :36:51.kind of regulations this government intends to impose upon trade unions,

:36:52. > :36:55.whose only job is to look after the interests of ordinary men and women

:36:56. > :37:00.in this country? Why about the same effort into chasing tax dodgers as

:37:01. > :37:05.do into handing so-called benefit cheats? A process that sees innocent

:37:06. > :37:12.people traduced. Innocent people's families rubbished. And at the end

:37:13. > :37:16.of it, they made a mistake. What happened in the meantime? Why do you

:37:17. > :37:23.think people in this country are angry?

:37:24. > :37:30.This is about the politics of fairness. This week we have seen the

:37:31. > :37:40.farce of we are all in this together. This is I get out for the

:37:41. > :37:45.party opposite to say we have heard the anger and frustration, let's

:37:46. > :37:50.work together and use this. Instead the shutting the door and want to

:37:51. > :37:57.carry on the dodgy deals. This is yet again one law for the rich and

:37:58. > :38:09.one more for the power. The people of this country will not stand for

:38:10. > :38:13.it. The most important thing to come out of the Panama papers was the

:38:14. > :38:20.allegations of criminality here and abroad. I hope this will lead to

:38:21. > :38:27.prosecutions and further crackdowns on corruption including places like

:38:28. > :38:31.China are added not like to be one of those individuals named in the

:38:32. > :38:37.Panama papers. Like the Member for Bracknell, I believe this comes to a

:38:38. > :38:43.question of trust. But the antidote to trust or mistrust is not

:38:44. > :38:49.moralising, it is not for my outrage, it is credible action that

:38:50. > :38:55.makes a difference and which the public can believe in. That is what

:38:56. > :39:00.this government has been doing. Just because some members of this House

:39:01. > :39:05.or the media have not followed this issue, just because the Member for

:39:06. > :39:09.Islington North didn't say anything on this matter during 13 years of

:39:10. > :39:13.the last Labour government, just because he sat on the overseas

:39:14. > :39:17.territories will committee and didn't raise any issue of tax of age

:39:18. > :39:26.and on that bill committee, just because he referred to the Labour

:39:27. > :39:35.Government taking control in the Cayman Islands as medieval and

:39:36. > :39:40.undemocratic, does not mean the government has done the same. Let me

:39:41. > :39:44.say a few words about the key points the government has. Many of which

:39:45. > :39:48.have already been mentioned. Raising the question at the G8 Summit and

:39:49. > :39:54.creating the world's first in official register of ownership that

:39:55. > :40:00.is public is an major historic development. Many campaigned against

:40:01. > :40:11.it for illegitimate reasons. This is a massive step forward in the

:40:12. > :40:19.campaign against tax avoidance and evasion. We are the first to do it

:40:20. > :40:23.and it is under this government. Other major economies around the

:40:24. > :40:34.world like the United States have not done this. Next month, chief

:40:35. > :40:38.justice real shrine is coming to Parliament. Of members of this House

:40:39. > :40:44.care about this issue, come to that event and question him on why

:40:45. > :40:47.Delaware, the state in which 90% of the major corporations of the United

:40:48. > :40:54.States have yet to follow the lead of this Prime Minister, have not

:40:55. > :40:57.done that. The general anti-avoidance law was an major and

:40:58. > :41:02.controversial measure taken by the last Coalition Government and

:41:03. > :41:07.opposed by the Labour Party. The Labour Party spokesman of the time

:41:08. > :41:23.said it was inadvisable to take this action until after the conclusion of

:41:24. > :41:26.the bets process. Another initiative was the transparency initiative

:41:27. > :41:32.brought in by Labour but one that they did not sign the UK up to. This

:41:33. > :41:44.is important for raising tax revenue around the world. This is something

:41:45. > :41:54.that many of us campaigned for and the business select Committee said

:41:55. > :41:58.it was a mistake. The point he makes is that practical, credible policies

:41:59. > :42:04.either way to tackle this. We have seen results, contrary to some of

:42:05. > :42:13.the accusations we have heard today, the tax gap was higher in 2009 than

:42:14. > :42:19.it is today. The tax gap for corporations was higher. The tax gap

:42:20. > :42:24.for stamp duty was higher. That is all according to the latest HMRC

:42:25. > :42:28.figures. Loopholes are being closed and practical measures are being

:42:29. > :42:33.brought in. By no means is this the end of the story. Of course there is

:42:34. > :42:38.more to do. I am pleased to see the UK Government is leading the world

:42:39. > :42:51.on this issue and I want to see it do a lot more. Corporation tax

:42:52. > :42:57.reaching 17% versus 30% in the United States will be a major step

:42:58. > :43:07.forward. President Obama was forced to take action against Pfizer

:43:08. > :43:12.because of high corporation tax in the United States. There is more to

:43:13. > :43:16.do. I don't claim that this is mission accomplished. But a lot of

:43:17. > :43:23.good steps have been taken. It is bad for business to have tax havens

:43:24. > :43:30.operating as they do today. Let me give you a brief example from a

:43:31. > :43:36.former career I had as managing director of art business. Many

:43:37. > :43:47.valuable works of art are held in Panama and other countries. A

:43:48. > :43:58.dispute lasted four years. It was likely to be looted during the

:43:59. > :44:03.Nazis. They were revealed to be the owner and I suspect that painting

:44:04. > :44:14.will finally go back to its legitimate owner. I wanted to close

:44:15. > :44:22.with a comment on the tax with a sea issue which has been raised in the

:44:23. > :44:29.press by Polly Toynbee and others. I think this would be a seriously

:44:30. > :44:33.detrimental step. The last major occasion I can think of in a large

:44:34. > :44:37.developed economy where this occurred was during the Civil War in

:44:38. > :44:43.the United States. To try and encourage compliance when the

:44:44. > :44:46.produced income tax, tax returns were posted on the walls of

:44:47. > :44:50.courthouses across the United States. It was one of the most

:44:51. > :44:55.unpopular policies in the history of the United States and it did not

:44:56. > :45:01.increase compliance. The Treasury Secretary said it was utterly

:45:02. > :45:06.useless from a Treasury perspective. Was just the gratification of idle

:45:07. > :45:11.curiosity and the filling of newspaper space. Setting aside prime

:45:12. > :45:16.ministers and politicians, let's defend the right of individuals in

:45:17. > :45:19.this country to have privacy in their business and financial

:45:20. > :45:24.affairs. Legitimate law-abiding citizens of this country should not

:45:25. > :45:36.be the losers of some individuals taking part in criminal acts. It is

:45:37. > :45:40.some scandal where criminals, politicians and dictators have been

:45:41. > :45:43.hiding billions and billions of pounds in offshore accounts under

:45:44. > :45:52.the names of companies that don't actually exist. It is the scale and

:45:53. > :45:57.nature of the scandal that causes me to be so depressed about the nature

:45:58. > :46:04.of the debate we have had in this chamber this afternoon but also

:46:05. > :46:08.leading up to the satin and. It has taken us almost two weeks to

:46:09. > :46:12.actually start debating the issue. I didn't quite buy everything the

:46:13. > :46:18.honourable gentleman for new had to say, but I thought he at least gave

:46:19. > :46:24.one of the most incisive speeches of the contributions today. It is quite

:46:25. > :46:30.obvious this issue is such a major hot potato for the two main parties

:46:31. > :46:35.in this chamber. So hot that they seem to prefer to kick it back and

:46:36. > :46:42.forward. You're worse than ours, we are better than you. Meanwhile the

:46:43. > :46:44.public actually want us to debate the issues that have been leaked.

:46:45. > :46:48.Forget the Twitter hashed tax, forget what has been written in the

:46:49. > :46:54.newspapers, forget the sneering snobbery on one side and the braying

:46:55. > :46:59.mob is on the other side. Let's actually deal with the issue. The

:47:00. > :47:04.issue is not about class. We can have an academic discussion about

:47:05. > :47:07.class later on. This is about criminality. That is what the motion

:47:08. > :47:12.seeks to address and what I think all of us in this chamber really

:47:13. > :47:17.want to address as well. It strikes me the are dashed there are two key

:47:18. > :47:22.ways in which we can tackle this hobbled. One is through resources in

:47:23. > :47:28.terms of resources available to public agencies, the other is

:47:29. > :47:31.through changes in legislation. Lots of members have mentioned you can

:47:32. > :47:36.also look at beefing up international cooperation as well. I

:47:37. > :47:40.genuinely welcome the measures the Prime Minister announced in the

:47:41. > :47:45.statement to the House on Monday. The cross agency task force, the

:47:46. > :47:51.funding that will come with that, and the other measures surrounding

:47:52. > :47:57.legislation are extremely important. And to be welcomed. What I would

:47:58. > :48:02.like the Minister to sum up in her closing remarks if she could would

:48:03. > :48:07.beware the government sees Interpol having a role to play. That is not

:48:08. > :48:12.something I've heard at all. Interpol have not released any

:48:13. > :48:17.public statements on this. I would like to noise Interpol are going to

:48:18. > :48:21.be invited to the corruption summit the Prime Minister will be hosting.

:48:22. > :48:26.I am concerned about the pattern that is forming with these big

:48:27. > :48:31.scandals when they seem to break. Whether it is this one are the

:48:32. > :48:38.Volkswagen scandal or whatever. A very British pattern. A pattern of

:48:39. > :48:44.continuously responding to events. I had hoped to hear more about how the

:48:45. > :48:55.government intends to beef up its HMRC resources to deal with this. It

:48:56. > :48:59.is clearly not working now. It is clearly not working. Somebody really

:49:00. > :49:04.needs to step back and look at the problem within the context that it

:49:05. > :49:09.actually exists. I had also hoped to hear more about how we would be

:49:10. > :49:15.trying to re-cooked some of the tax that we were told. I got back to the

:49:16. > :49:21.point I made earlier about criminality. I can only hope that

:49:22. > :49:24.some of this will be getting talked about in the Paris talks today which

:49:25. > :49:29.I understand the UK Government is represented at. The government has

:49:30. > :49:33.made a lot about its ambition to secure economic security for

:49:34. > :49:40.Britain. They are absolutely right to mention that. The threats we face

:49:41. > :49:46.in terms of financial security are not to be taken lightly. Invite my

:49:47. > :49:48.view the should be up there with the threats we face from terrorist

:49:49. > :49:54.organisations. Just as the primers to announced that he has started to

:49:55. > :50:00.recruit additional staff for agencies such as MI5 in the

:50:01. > :50:06.aftermath of attacks on our doorstep in Europe, he should be seeking to

:50:07. > :50:13.do the exact same thing for the public agencies surrounding criminal

:50:14. > :50:20.finance. I wish the government would see more about what is happening in

:50:21. > :50:28.Australia regarding and explained wealth orders. I will not throw my

:50:29. > :50:37.fool support behind them because there are issues regarding presuming

:50:38. > :50:41.innocence. It has also been used in Italy against gangs such as the

:50:42. > :50:46.Mafia. The public requires us to act. It requires us to stop the

:50:47. > :50:54.politicking, some of which has risen its head today. We need the fine

:50:55. > :51:04.minds of this House, and there are some in this House, such as the

:51:05. > :51:11.right honourable lady who has come together on across party basis and

:51:12. > :51:16.tapped into devolved parliaments and start to take this issue seriously.

:51:17. > :51:21.Ignore those people who tell us you won't understand it and it is too

:51:22. > :51:25.difficult. That allows them to keep doing what has got us to this point.

:51:26. > :51:32.Failure to do so will keep on feeding precancerous way in which

:51:33. > :51:39.our politics is going on. That will be to the detriment of all of us.

:51:40. > :51:45.This is an important debate for all of the reasons given. The public

:51:46. > :51:50.frustration there is with those who seem to be able to earn money but

:51:51. > :51:55.not pay tax while the rest of the people do. A time of austerity.

:51:56. > :52:04.Public finances are stretched and we need to find ways of maintaining --

:52:05. > :52:08.ensuring that taxes are paid. And because of the ability to hide

:52:09. > :52:13.sources of income, there is all kinds of corruption, including as we

:52:14. > :52:20.have found in Northern Ireland, the ability to finance terrorism. I want

:52:21. > :52:22.it put on the record, the leader of the buzz in and the Shadow

:52:23. > :52:30.Chancellor can beat their chests about the way in which taxes are

:52:31. > :52:36.evaded, but they showed friendship and they stated the very people who

:52:37. > :52:40.used all kinds of fiscal fraud to finance murder in Northern Ireland

:52:41. > :52:46.for the stop and we have never heard an apology from them for that. When

:52:47. > :52:53.it comes to this particular issue, we do have two approach this with a

:52:54. > :52:57.sense of maturity. -- to approach this. I know people have denied it

:52:58. > :53:02.on this side of the House. Not from the politics of envy, as we have

:53:03. > :53:07.seen demonstrated in some of the speeches today. And equally, there

:53:08. > :53:10.must be, on the side of the government, a willingness to listen

:53:11. > :53:16.to the genuine concerns and to deal with the issues. I do not believe it

:53:17. > :53:20.is dealt with by simply demanding that everybody produces and

:53:21. > :53:25.publishes their tax returns. If you are going to evade taxes -- tax, you

:53:26. > :53:35.are hardly going to put it down on your tax returns and a way! Where do

:53:36. > :53:42.you stop? -- anyway. If it influenced the way you formulated

:53:43. > :53:45.policy, or top civil servants, the heads of many public sector

:53:46. > :53:52.organisations, the press, because they are involved in it. We cannot

:53:53. > :53:55.have the critics of what happens in this House then avoiding publishing

:53:56. > :54:01.their own tax returns as well. Where do you stop? If that is not the

:54:02. > :54:10.answer anyhow, I believe there are three things which may identify it.

:54:11. > :54:16.We must know who actually is responsible for the income of a

:54:17. > :54:21.certain business or company and be able to trace that. The question of

:54:22. > :54:26.accessibility and transparency is important. How do we achieve that?

:54:27. > :54:35.The the Government has gone some way along the road. There are those on

:54:36. > :54:39.the Labour side who believes we should use orders and councils. A

:54:40. > :54:44.form of colonialism, which I would have thought they would not be so

:54:45. > :54:48.supportive of. Members may say it is nonsense. But either we regard them

:54:49. > :54:52.as independent territories where they make their own laws and we seek

:54:53. > :54:58.to cooperate with them and persuade them to do the right thing, or we

:54:59. > :55:01.impose those laws on them. That is a form of colonialism and I do not

:55:02. > :55:06.think it would work. I think the government is right in seeking to

:55:07. > :55:13.persuade them to come along and see the implications of allowing people

:55:14. > :55:17.to hide their identities in some of the businesses which are in those

:55:18. > :55:22.territories. The second one, and I believe this is important, is that

:55:23. > :55:29.tax avoidance, and many people have talked about tax avoidance today,

:55:30. > :55:33.but yet millions of people in the United Kingdom engaged in tax

:55:34. > :55:40.avoidance and think nothing of it. It is within the law. And when you

:55:41. > :55:44.have a tax code which runs to 22,000 plus pages, with all of the

:55:45. > :55:50.allowances and everything else, then of course you are going to get

:55:51. > :55:55.people finding the loopholes. As the member from Blaydon has said, the

:55:56. > :56:00.people best able to do that our people who have huge resources at

:56:01. > :56:09.their disposal. Many taxpayers do not have that. People have coded

:56:10. > :56:16.Adam Smith today. He said there should be fairness, they should be

:56:17. > :56:21.simplicity, the ability to collect taxes economically. Those are some

:56:22. > :56:26.of the principles we have to look at. The third and final thing is

:56:27. > :56:30.enforceability. I do have reservations about the direction the

:56:31. > :56:34.government is going in. Of course we should find efficiencies in public

:56:35. > :56:39.services. But when I look at the number of tax offices, especially in

:56:40. > :56:44.Northern Ireland, that are being closed, where hundreds of years of

:56:45. > :56:47.experience of dealing with some of the most -- worst money-launderings

:56:48. > :56:53.in the United Kingdom is being lost, I ask myself, are we really serious

:56:54. > :57:01.about taking on the tax evaders? Even when we do spot them, HSBC have

:57:02. > :57:07.been identified as one bank which enabled 7000 people, I think it was,

:57:08. > :57:11.to evade taxes. Over 1100 of them in the United Kingdom. And yet only one

:57:12. > :57:15.prosecution so far. It is not just a case of having the resources to

:57:16. > :57:19.enforce, but making sure that when people are caught, examples are made

:57:20. > :57:24.and they are punished accordingly so the message goes out that this will

:57:25. > :57:28.not be tolerated. If we do not go down those roads better

:57:29. > :57:33.transparency, of having an efficient tax system which does not leave the

:57:34. > :57:39.loopholes, and thirdly, having a proper method of enforcement, I

:57:40. > :57:44.believe this will go on and on. I want to follow the honourable

:57:45. > :57:49.member from East Antrim on a point in relation to enforcement. He has

:57:50. > :57:53.touched on the tax offices in Northern Ireland. The office in my

:57:54. > :57:58.own constituency is due for closure in the coming years. It has lost

:57:59. > :58:03.work that it was doing, including recovery in relation to overseas

:58:04. > :58:09.taxation. But I do not want to join everybody else who has made this

:58:10. > :58:13.debate more about the general tax policy of the government, or the

:58:14. > :58:17.record of government in terms of taxation. But the public would

:58:18. > :58:21.expect us to be debating properly is the enormous imprecations from the

:58:22. > :58:29.Panama papers. I am not going to conflate the issues that arise

:58:30. > :58:33.around the syndicated global grand larceny represented in those papers

:58:34. > :58:38.with the questions in personal taxation for the Prime Minister or

:58:39. > :58:44.indeed anybody else. I would prefer if in this debate and in other

:58:45. > :58:47.debates, between now and the global anti-corruption Summit which the

:58:48. > :58:51.Prime Minister is hosting, that our concentration would be on the sorts

:58:52. > :58:54.of issues we would have been discussing anyway. We heard from

:58:55. > :58:59.people on the government benches much about the government record in

:59:00. > :59:03.terms of changing tax thresholds and what is happening to the taxes of

:59:04. > :59:08.the wealthy in this country. We have heard arguments on the other side.

:59:09. > :59:12.Let's address the global implications of the Panama papers.

:59:13. > :59:16.In terms of the larceny that is involved, that is represented here,

:59:17. > :59:22.these people have avoided or evaded these taxes. This is not a

:59:23. > :59:25.victimless duplicity or deceit. Other people are left to pay those

:59:26. > :59:33.taxes. Other firms are having to pay those taxes to make good exchequer

:59:34. > :59:37.is. Other people are losing out in services or salaries because the

:59:38. > :59:41.taxation is not there to support services to the levels needed to

:59:42. > :59:46.improve the development of infrastructure. People are losing

:59:47. > :59:51.out. That is not the politics of envy. That is the politics of

:59:52. > :59:54.reality, of social justice. That is the politics of, we should be in a

:59:55. > :59:58.world in the 21st century where we're role in this together. That is

:59:59. > :00:06.why fairness and taxation is so important. The honourable member is

:00:07. > :00:09.making his usually powerful speech. Christian aid recently said that an

:00:10. > :00:17.oil company in Uganda approached Mossack Fonseca trying to avoid

:00:18. > :00:21.paying ?400 million worth of taxes in Uganda itself. That is the

:00:22. > :00:27.equivalent of the Ugandan health care service. It is not a victimless

:00:28. > :00:32.crime when these taxes are avoided. Would he agree? I absolutely do and

:00:33. > :00:36.that example empathy -- illustrates the point well. I want to

:00:37. > :00:40.acknowledge the work of Oxfam, Christian aid and other

:00:41. > :00:43.organisations in making sure we have more awareness of these issues. I

:00:44. > :00:49.want to acknowledge not least the work of the all-party group against

:00:50. > :00:57.corruption and the contribution of the honourable member for Newcastle.

:00:58. > :01:01.But also the contribution of the honourable member from Amber Valley,

:01:02. > :01:05.who is not able to join this debate but has had a keen interest in a lot

:01:06. > :01:09.of the issues that have now surfaced in more dramatic form with the

:01:10. > :01:13.Panama papers. It would have been interesting if we had heard from the

:01:14. > :01:17.Minister whether or not government were actually shocked by the Panama

:01:18. > :01:24.papers. We know there was the issue about the Prime Minister. But in

:01:25. > :01:27.terms of the other issues, did the government regard this as part of

:01:28. > :01:33.the course? Did they know what was going on anyway? Was that informing

:01:34. > :01:38.their measures against corruption? Did it tell them something they were

:01:39. > :01:43.not aware of. --? What worries have that other that what else is going

:01:44. > :01:47.on. --? We heard from the Prime Minister today that the agencies

:01:48. > :01:52.dealing with this our independent. Somebody somewhere should be asking

:01:53. > :01:57.them, is this what you knew? Are you doing anything in response to this?

:01:58. > :02:00.Journalists are being asked to give the information. Is anybody else

:02:01. > :02:05.being pursued for the information? Is anybody having their doorknobs or

:02:06. > :02:09.their collar felt? It seems not. When the Prime Minister is meant to

:02:10. > :02:12.be hosting a global anti-corruption Summit, he could be showing himself

:02:13. > :02:17.more active now in response to those papers. Now that he has dealt with

:02:18. > :02:24.the issues around himself, he can address the wider issues. Maybe last

:02:25. > :02:27.week if he had addressed the wider issues, people might have thought

:02:28. > :02:32.that was issue avoidance on his part. He needs to be addressing

:02:33. > :02:36.those issues now. If that Summit is to be worthwhile. It is particularly

:02:37. > :02:41.disappointing to hear the Prime Minister being the spin doctor now

:02:42. > :02:46.for the Tory territories in relation to their role. I cannot believe it

:02:47. > :02:49.is not a tax haven. He is saying that because they have moved a bit

:02:50. > :02:57.on what he said in 2013, he was gone to ask them... That that was enough.

:02:58. > :03:00.There has been progress. Indications are possible progress. The Prime

:03:01. > :03:04.Minister should not be letting up the pressure on the Crown

:03:05. > :03:07.Dependencies. He should be ratcheting up the pressure on them

:03:08. > :03:12.and everybody else. And he should be doing that by showing a stronger

:03:13. > :03:15.response here in relation to our own agencies in relation to these

:03:16. > :03:20.issues. There has been much in the debate today about the difference

:03:21. > :03:26.between avoidance and evasion. Let's be clear. We know when we see the

:03:27. > :03:31.syndicated effort that has gone into the artifice that is involved in

:03:32. > :03:35.some of these shells and shams and scams, we know the architecture of

:03:36. > :03:42.avoidance is actually fitted with the engineering of evasion. There is

:03:43. > :03:48.not that much of a difference. We need stronger global action as well.

:03:49. > :03:52.That is where I would have two ask the government again to reconsider

:03:53. > :03:56.their attitude to some possible global measures because in the past

:03:57. > :04:01.when they said they wanted to lead against corruption and were putting

:04:02. > :04:06.taxation central stage, they also said they face against any notion of

:04:07. > :04:09.a financial transaction tax. If there was a financial transaction

:04:10. > :04:15.tax at a global level, it would make sure there was more monitoring of

:04:16. > :04:18.what goes on these different schemes and moves when companies appeared to

:04:19. > :04:22.trade with shadow versions of themselves, and when shells are

:04:23. > :04:28.registered in different places. The fact of there being a uniform

:04:29. > :04:32.position would bring some tracing to some of this and bring more of the

:04:33. > :04:42.transparency that people say is needed as the answer here. What is

:04:43. > :04:46.being done, what is being done in terms of recovery? The government

:04:47. > :04:50.have a pretty pedestrian attitude in relation to that. They seem to be

:04:51. > :04:53.more concerned about the media flap in relation to the Prime Minister

:04:54. > :04:58.being embroiled in some of this. Now they think that is over, they seem

:04:59. > :05:01.to be taking it very pedestrian cross -- approach to an issue

:05:02. > :05:08.scandalising many and burdening people in poor countries in the

:05:09. > :05:13.world. Thank you, Mr Deputy Speaker. May I

:05:14. > :05:18.start by thanking someone needs organisations that have been

:05:19. > :05:25.involved in supporting the enquiry as it has gone forward on the issue

:05:26. > :05:28.of the Panama papers. Oxfam, global witness, transparency International,

:05:29. > :05:33.Christian aid and others, who I think I've played an invaluable

:05:34. > :05:37.role. May I also thank all honourable members for their

:05:38. > :05:43.contributions to today's debate. The honourable members for Dundee East,

:05:44. > :05:49.Torbay, South Suffolk, Newark, East Antrim, Glasgow South, but also

:05:50. > :05:52.honourable members on this side, including my honourable friend the

:05:53. > :06:03.member is for Blaydon, Newcastle, Oldham East, all of whom have raised

:06:04. > :06:09.very important issues. We have heard about tax not being a donation,

:06:10. > :06:13.being a legal requirement, needing to take the nonpayment of taxing

:06:14. > :06:18.credibly seriously. The work of the public Accounts Committee also being

:06:19. > :06:23.incredibly vital in this area. We heard from the honourable member, my

:06:24. > :06:27.honourable friend, the member for Newcastle, talking about this being

:06:28. > :06:32.a pivotal moment. A moment the government must not squander. Also

:06:33. > :06:36.talking about the challenges in prosecutions due to the complexity

:06:37. > :06:41.of the structures of multinational companies and how we need to extend

:06:42. > :06:42.our thinking and the law further to tackling wider issues of economic

:06:43. > :06:55.crime. This is a moment that we must seize.

:06:56. > :07:02.We have had the public and the media who have not always been engaged on

:07:03. > :07:07.this issue at this scale. There are now seeing the scale of injustice

:07:08. > :07:11.and across the world. The Panama papers have lifted the lid and I

:07:12. > :07:15.believe there is now no going back. We have had revelations that provide

:07:16. > :07:24.concrete examples of what we have all suspected and that have exposed

:07:25. > :07:27.the details of the worst excesses of our international financial system.

:07:28. > :07:31.At the heart of this issue now is a matter of public trust and

:07:32. > :07:38.confidence in the fairness of our tax system. People rightly say I pay

:07:39. > :07:45.my fears she towards the cost of vital public services. I can't dodge

:07:46. > :07:48.or negotiate with tax authorities, so why should wealthy individuals

:07:49. > :07:57.and companies who can get away with not paying their fair share be able

:07:58. > :08:01.to do so? And the fact is that for all the claims we have had from the

:08:02. > :08:06.government, people don't think that they have done enough to tackle the

:08:07. > :08:13.problems here or in the overseas territories or Crown dependencies we

:08:14. > :08:18.have responsibility for. This is a global issue. Did need a global

:08:19. > :08:22.response. Today's debate reflects the widespread public view that we

:08:23. > :08:27.should be seeing individuals and companies paying their fair share.

:08:28. > :08:34.And calls upon the government to implement Labour's tax transparency

:08:35. > :08:38.in force in programme. Labour has a strong record on tax evasion and

:08:39. > :08:42.avoidance. The measures we introduced while we were in power

:08:43. > :08:47.will still raise ten times as much over the coming years as those

:08:48. > :08:50.introduced by the Tories in the last Parliament. And that is the

:08:51. > :08:54.conclusion of analysis by The Financial Times. We know as well

:08:55. > :08:59.that the government over the last week have had the chance to step up

:09:00. > :09:05.and take a stronger lead. And what is disappointing is that they have

:09:06. > :09:08.failed to do so. The government's Parcelforce and other measures are

:09:09. > :09:14.now a missed opportunity to end secrecy ahead of next month's

:09:15. > :09:19.anti-corruption Summit. The Prime Minister who in 2013 wrote to

:09:20. > :09:23.overseas territories and Crown dependencies Colin for greater

:09:24. > :09:30.transparency and fully resourced central registries, he wrote again.

:09:31. > :09:35.We have had written questions and oral questions. Now we receive it is

:09:36. > :09:39.not the government's intention to push the issue of public registers

:09:40. > :09:45.further. Instead the information that is now agreed on will only be

:09:46. > :09:49.available to UK law enforcement and tax authorities. The beneficial

:09:50. > :09:54.ownership agreement with the Cayman Islands only allows designated

:09:55. > :09:59.Cayman Islands officials to directly obtain and provide details of

:10:00. > :10:05.beneficial ownership of companies incorporate in the key bash in the

:10:06. > :10:09.Cayman Islands to the UK. The Swiss tax agreement has raised just a

:10:10. > :10:14.fraction of the 5.3 billion promised. The government are very

:10:15. > :10:20.good spin, but their record does not stand up to scrutiny. What is

:10:21. > :10:23.particularly stark about the Panama revelations is that more than half

:10:24. > :10:29.the companies named in the papers were registered in the UK Government

:10:30. > :10:36.tax havens. That is something we should be ashamed of. That is why we

:10:37. > :10:41.believe the UK should be leading the global campaign, fighting aggressive

:10:42. > :10:48.tax avoidance and evasion, and instead we are lagging behind. There

:10:49. > :10:54.are a number of other issues that are vital. We have talked about the

:10:55. > :10:59.need for an independent enquiry. Wilder has been moves across the

:11:00. > :11:05.world and there is an important meeting in Paris today organised by

:11:06. > :11:20.the joint international tax shelter and collaboration network. We know

:11:21. > :11:26.there is an issue effectively regarding theft. Every year, about

:11:27. > :11:30.$200 billion of untaxed income is taken out of our countries by

:11:31. > :11:36.international corporations operating in their territory who are avoiding

:11:37. > :11:46.paying tax. We also know that there is an urgent issue of speed. The

:11:47. > :11:49.issue highlighted also by the chair of the network highlighted today the

:11:50. > :11:55.need for immediate information exchange and these issues should now

:11:56. > :12:00.be tackled at speed. Far from seeing the government keep that call, we

:12:01. > :12:05.see a government that continues to slow down, rather than accelerate

:12:06. > :12:13.its action to tackle tax avoidance. We believe that we have a lot more

:12:14. > :12:19.to do. That we need to see good greater parliamentary scrutiny,

:12:20. > :12:22.specialise tax enforcement units, greater company transparency with

:12:23. > :12:30.companies that want to get for public sector contracts. Then need

:12:31. > :12:44.for a greater cooperation with European partners. This highlights

:12:45. > :12:47.the importance of our membership of the European Union in tackling these

:12:48. > :12:53.complex issues which do not stop at national borders. We have called on

:12:54. > :12:59.the government to take much greater action and do so faster. We have

:13:00. > :13:09.called for stricter minimum standards for Crown dependencies.

:13:10. > :13:14.The Financial Secretary raise this issue as a reason for not pushing

:13:15. > :13:24.for public registers of beneficial owners. While I conclude now, let me

:13:25. > :13:30.add one more point. On Monday, it was said that we on this side of the

:13:31. > :13:34.House should snap out of our synthetic indignation. The risk he

:13:35. > :13:41.said was a house stuffed full of low achievers who hate enterprise.

:13:42. > :13:46.Regrettably, the Financial Secretary appeared to back him up. This is not

:13:47. > :13:50.about begrudging those who succeed in business. It is a basic question

:13:51. > :13:56.of fairness in our society. I believe that this is an issue on

:13:57. > :14:01.which the rich and per who believe in fairness are united. When we

:14:02. > :14:06.shirk responsibility to crack down on tax havens, we are letting our

:14:07. > :14:13.country and constituents down. That is why I urge the House to join us

:14:14. > :14:24.in voting for Labour's opposed measures today. I am delighted to be

:14:25. > :14:29.given the opportunity to outline the action the government is proud to

:14:30. > :14:33.have taken to tackle tax evasion, tax avoidance and aggressive tax

:14:34. > :14:37.planning. Nor government of this country has done more to ensure that

:14:38. > :14:42.people and companies pay the taxes that they all and to crack down on

:14:43. > :14:48.those who don't play by the rules. That is why from day one we have

:14:49. > :14:52.introduced a measure after measure to close down the tax loopholes we

:14:53. > :14:58.inherited. To increase the punishment for those who break the

:14:59. > :15:02.law. To drive forward tax transparency and make sure the UK is

:15:03. > :15:07.at the forefront of the new global standards. To make sure the

:15:08. > :15:12.International tax rules are fit for the 21st-century. To reform regimes

:15:13. > :15:20.in overseas territories and Crown dependencies. And to increase the

:15:21. > :15:26.powers of HMRC to collect the money to pay for the public services on

:15:27. > :15:32.which we all depend. Individuals and companies should pay their fair

:15:33. > :15:37.share of tax. The activities that have been taking place in Panama are

:15:38. > :15:45.already the subject of intensive HMRC investigation. It is clearly

:15:46. > :15:55.imperative to examine the leak data very closely. That is why we are

:15:56. > :16:04.setting up in providing fun -- funding to sift through the millions

:16:05. > :16:09.of pages of data. We also attach great importance to giving HMRC the

:16:10. > :16:15.resources to protect our taxpayers. That is why at last year's summer

:16:16. > :16:21.budget, we announced an extra ?800 million to fund additional work to

:16:22. > :16:30.tackle evasion and noncompliance by 2020 and 2021. That will enable HMRC

:16:31. > :16:39.to recover tax over the next five years. Thanks to this government's

:16:40. > :16:45.action, our register of company beneficial ownership will go live in

:16:46. > :16:51.June. We are the first country to have such a list free to access to

:16:52. > :16:56.anyone. We are in courage and those who bid on public contracts in

:16:57. > :17:00.England to provide beneficial ownership information as well. We

:17:01. > :17:05.heard from a range of speakers today. The Member for Hayes and

:17:06. > :17:10.Harlington has a new-found interest in a topic he asked no questions on

:17:11. > :17:16.during the 13 years of Labour government, but he has managed over

:17:17. > :17:24.the last week to confirm his party as anti aspiration, anti-wealth

:17:25. > :17:30.creation and wanting to create an atmosphere of envy. We heard from

:17:31. > :17:34.the Member for Dundee East who has much more welcoming of the measures

:17:35. > :17:38.the government has brought in and also attacked Labour's lack of

:17:39. > :17:47.action over 13 years. We had an informed speech from the Member for

:17:48. > :17:52.Torbay. And a very interesting speech from the Member for Newcastle

:17:53. > :17:57.upon Tyne North who is chair and founder of the all-party group on

:17:58. > :18:04.anti-corruption. She will be aware of the new legislation we are

:18:05. > :18:08.bringing in. She will want to participate in that consultation

:18:09. > :18:11.regarding that offence. The Member for Suffolk South brought in his

:18:12. > :18:22.expertise in business and highlighted the steps the government

:18:23. > :18:33.have used to help low earners. I am pleased to confirm the amount of 1.8

:18:34. > :18:47.million has been made available. She raised questions about trust. There

:18:48. > :18:52.are many legitimate reasons for creating a trust. The vast majority

:18:53. > :18:57.of trusts across the UK are used for legitimate purposes. Setting up

:18:58. > :19:04.blanket requirement would distract action from areas of most concern,

:19:05. > :19:11.such as Shell companies. The Member for Bracknell suggested abolishing

:19:12. > :19:14.corporation tax completely, something the government is not

:19:15. > :19:23.ready to do at this moment in time. The Member for Newport West made an

:19:24. > :19:29.angry speech including personal attacks on current -- conservative

:19:30. > :19:35.politicians. Then we heard about the Labour Party's politics of envy and

:19:36. > :19:46.our attempts to make the income tax system more progressive. The Member

:19:47. > :19:52.for new work made a very good speech, credible action against

:19:53. > :19:59.corruption and criminality that this government has taken. He drew on his

:20:00. > :20:04.knowledge from the art world. We heard interesting speeches from the

:20:05. > :20:09.Member for Glasgow South. HMRC works closely with Interpol and is indeed

:20:10. > :20:12.finalising the list for the anti-corruption Summit as we speak.

:20:13. > :20:22.In terms of the members from Northern Ireland, we heard helpful

:20:23. > :20:27.contributions from them. In conclusion, this country is leading

:20:28. > :20:34.the way on tackling tax evasion and tax avoidance, bringing in billions

:20:35. > :20:39.from offshore tax evaders. We have made over 40 changes to tax law in

:20:40. > :20:44.the last Parliament alone. For this parliament so far, more than 25 have

:20:45. > :20:48.been announced for legislation. Although the party opposite has

:20:49. > :20:53.suddenly decided to give lectures on tax, I remind the House that when he

:20:54. > :20:57.came into office there were foreign nationals not paying capital gains

:20:58. > :21:02.tax when selling UK property, Private equity managers paying lower

:21:03. > :21:06.rates of tax them their cleaners and rich home-buyers getting away

:21:07. > :21:10.without paying stamp duty by owning homes through companies. We have

:21:11. > :21:20.taken action to fix that. We have increased the amount paid in income

:21:21. > :21:24.tax by the tops 1% from ?31 billion to ?47 billion. We have made our

:21:25. > :21:28.taxes more internationally competitive, we have cut income tax

:21:29. > :21:33.for tens of millions of hard-working people, rewarded aspiration, made

:21:34. > :21:40.the tax system better, fairer and more efficient. That is our record.

:21:41. > :21:41.We are proud of it and I urge the House to vote against today's

:21:42. > :21:57.opposition motion. The question is as on the order

:21:58. > :22:06.paper. Those who see ayes see ayes. And those who say no, see noes. --

:22:07. > :22:54.see ayes -- see noes. The question is as on the order

:22:55. > :23:16.paper. As many of that opinion see aye. To the contrary, see no.

:23:17. > :36:08.Order. Ie company? Order, order. -- are you comfortable. The ayes to the

:36:09. > :36:17.right 266. The noes to the left, 300.

:36:18. > :36:38.The ayes to the right, 266. Nose to the left, 300. The nose have it. Do

:36:39. > :36:47.not get too comfy. We know in opposition motion, related to the

:36:48. > :36:51.white paper. Like an involuntary, I have selected the amendment, and the

:36:52. > :37:01.name of the Prime Minister. It could help, if I explain, this is not an

:37:02. > :37:08.allotted opposition date, the usual procedure, governing the handling of

:37:09. > :37:13.amendments does not apply. After the opposition spokesman has spoken,

:37:14. > :37:20.moving the motion, the minister is going to be called, the debate will

:37:21. > :37:30.take place on the question that the amendment be made. Forward by the

:37:31. > :37:38.question, about the mean motion. I now call Lucy Powell. Thank you Mr

:37:39. > :37:47.Deputy Speaker. I am pleased that we have been able to secure this

:37:48. > :37:51.debate, following the school white paper, causing concern among others,

:37:52. > :37:56.the mean and most controversial proposal, is to force all of the

:37:57. > :38:02.schools to become academies, and many of them, to become multi

:38:03. > :38:06.academy trusts by 2022. It is this proposal that we have focused the

:38:07. > :38:11.debate on, because we believe these clowns are deeply flawed, not

:38:12. > :38:17.supported by evidence, have been causing disruption, and have very

:38:18. > :38:24.few supporters. We have a growing number of people concerned, local

:38:25. > :38:32.government leaders, headteaching unions. It is my intention that

:38:33. > :38:37.today's debate is the opportunity, to air concerns, I will be Secretary

:38:38. > :38:41.of State is going to be listening carefully, not carrying on

:38:42. > :38:49.regardless. Elements of the white paper, that we can support, such as

:38:50. > :38:53.the independent college teaching, but the wholesale academisation, we

:38:54. > :38:59.cannot. The Government plan has been met with such concern, because it is

:39:00. > :39:03.a bad policy, nor evidence base. It is yet another policy from this

:39:04. > :39:08.government that is obsessing, with school structures, instead of

:39:09. > :39:15.standards. And given the pressures being faced by schools today,

:39:16. > :39:20.teacher shortages, cuts to the budgets, first time in 20 years,

:39:21. > :39:28.overhauls, to the curriculum and exams, the idea that heads should be

:39:29. > :39:32.spending energy on this ?1.3 billion top-down reorganisation is at best a

:39:33. > :39:39.distraction, and at worst is going to have a damaging impact on the

:39:40. > :39:50.School standards. I will take... I am grateful to my honourable friend.

:39:51. > :39:56.The point is that the school that I am a governor at, chose to become an

:39:57. > :40:09.Academy, because parents and he just decided that was the best model for

:40:10. > :40:14.should we not respect those who want this. My honourable friend makes a

:40:15. > :40:27.good point, I will, to make that myself, in the speech. Does my

:40:28. > :40:31.honourable friend, not agree, that more importantly, you could have

:40:32. > :40:34.difficulties, with teachers, and it could have been better spent on

:40:35. > :40:42.public services, rather than the ideological. My honourable friend,

:40:43. > :40:48.echos those concerns, made by the union this morning. But the

:40:49. > :40:52.Conservative obsession with school structures, has completely missed

:40:53. > :40:55.the point. Just as we have some excellent academies, we have

:40:56. > :41:02.excellent community schools. Some poor academies, and some poor

:41:03. > :41:06.community schools. We need to build an education system, that provides

:41:07. > :41:10.an excellent education for all of the children, rather than putting

:41:11. > :41:14.one type of school against another. One month has passed since the

:41:15. > :41:20.Chancellor media, but we have yet to get answers to the question why.

:41:21. > :41:27.When schools that want to become academies, can already do so, and

:41:28. > :41:30.skills that the government deems coasting, can be put into Academy

:41:31. > :41:39.chains, why should you be forcing all the others, this is not about

:41:40. > :41:47.improvement, freedom, the multi academy trust model is in its

:41:48. > :41:55.infancy. So, I am going to make some progress. We can look at each of

:41:56. > :41:58.government arguments. They have said this is about school improvements.

:41:59. > :42:03.We can look at the evidence. The vast majority of schools are going

:42:04. > :42:12.to be affected by this policy, primary schools, over 17% already

:42:13. > :42:21.academies. Those that are not, 80%, already rated good or outstanding.

:42:22. > :42:28.At secondary schools, two thirds already academies, more failing than

:42:29. > :42:37.not. Places like Doncaster, for example, all the secondary schools

:42:38. > :42:41.already academies. I thank my honourable friend. Meeting a

:42:42. > :42:46.powerful case. Can she reflect on the performance, at Greenwich,

:42:47. > :42:52.moving from being one of the highest performing education authorities,

:42:53. > :42:57.without the academies as in of a single primary school, and only

:42:58. > :43:03.three secondary schools. That was out forced academies each. Parents

:43:04. > :43:09.are concerned about why they have been removed from the process, not

:43:10. > :43:15.consulted about changes. My honourable friend makes an excellent

:43:16. > :43:23.point. At Coventry, we have another sub situation, the Secretary of

:43:24. > :43:32.State refused to meet me about this, just a couple of years ago, we

:43:33. > :43:37.failed, instead of the intervention, closing one Academy, and starting

:43:38. > :43:42.another. What a waste of resources. My honourable friend makes a good

:43:43. > :43:45.point. And today, Ofsted have reported that the performance of

:43:46. > :43:50.secondary schools at Reading is not strong. Eight out of ten secondary

:43:51. > :44:00.schools at Reading, already academies. Why has she failed to

:44:01. > :44:04.improve these academies? What is the government structure? I'm going to

:44:05. > :44:08.make progress. The government has claimed that we have more children,

:44:09. > :44:22.at good and outstanding skills, than 2010. As proof, that academies Asian

:44:23. > :44:26.leads to improvement. -- can lead. But the truth, the vast majority of

:44:27. > :44:34.those good and outstanding places that children are at, creamery

:44:35. > :44:39.schools. Academies Asian is limited. According to Ofsted, the number of

:44:40. > :44:44.pupils, at inadequate secondary schools has risen by 60% over the

:44:45. > :44:55.last four years. Academies Asian has taken hold significantly. --

:44:56. > :45:04.academisation. This does not withstand any scrutiny. Perhaps that

:45:05. > :45:08.is why the conservative majority, the education select committee,

:45:09. > :45:15.recently concluded after extensive enquiries, that couldn't evidence

:45:16. > :45:18.does not allow us to draw conclusions, whether academies are

:45:19. > :45:26.force for good. No convincing evidence, about the impact of

:45:27. > :45:34.Academy status on attainment. I declare an interest, as a chairman

:45:35. > :45:41.of Goole Academy. We have seen results go from 48% at good and

:45:42. > :45:44.outstanding, to 92%. I agree with some of the funds that have been

:45:45. > :45:49.made, but can she can from the position of the Labour Party, to

:45:50. > :45:57.support Academy schools. The speech has seemed very anti Academy. As I

:45:58. > :46:07.have made clear in my opening remarks, some excellent academies,

:46:08. > :46:17.but the overall evidence is underwhelming at best. I am going to

:46:18. > :46:22.make progress. The Sutton Trust has found some excellent academies, but

:46:23. > :46:29.the majority under performing. Not only is this forced academisation

:46:30. > :46:34.programme zero about school improvement, but it could diminish

:46:35. > :46:42.the capacity for improvement, regional school Commissioners,

:46:43. > :46:44.officials, and local authorities will be shifting almost entirely

:46:45. > :46:51.away from skills that need improvement, to creating trusts,

:46:52. > :46:57.changing the legal status of many schemes, most already performing

:46:58. > :47:04.well. The schools Commissioner and Department for Education have not

:47:05. > :47:12.even a choir powers, -- acquired the powers. So was that legislation a

:47:13. > :47:20.complete with tough time? -- waste of time? She is talking about

:47:21. > :47:25.coasting skills, and the NHS, we had organisation that nobody had voted

:47:26. > :47:34.for, we have seen performance go down, people dealing with this

:47:35. > :47:38.organisation, does she worry we are going in the same direction?

:47:39. > :47:44.Something nobody has voted for, and the achievement of the children,

:47:45. > :47:48.falling away? Excellent point. The government seems to enjoy these

:47:49. > :47:52.reorganisations, nor are ideas. I will go back to some of the

:47:53. > :47:58.concerns, about the performance of Academy chains. But before that, I

:47:59. > :48:05.want to look at another one of the government's arguments about forced

:48:06. > :48:12.academisation, it is about autonomy, and freedoms. What choice, one size

:48:13. > :48:18.fits all? What is autonomous, about forcing highly performing schools,

:48:19. > :48:22.into an Academy gene? Can she promised, every outstanding school

:48:23. > :48:30.leader, who wants to remain, can do so? She cannot. What about the

:48:31. > :48:38.small, village schools? They cannot be stand-alone academies. I see some

:48:39. > :48:47.nods from the bench opposite. Even the Secretary of State, and one of

:48:48. > :49:02.four men -- her main allies, described this as Stalinist. Lastly,

:49:03. > :49:08.give way. I am extremely grateful to my honourable friend. She talks

:49:09. > :49:14.about autonomy, democratic control, we want cooperative schools,

:49:15. > :49:19.actually, parents, pupils, leaders working together. Why does she think

:49:20. > :49:26.they are going to be forced to academies? My honourable friend

:49:27. > :49:34.meets another excellent point. But in any case, curriculum freedom, she

:49:35. > :49:40.and I both know the autonomy does not exist. Over the past five years,

:49:41. > :49:45.we have seen parts of the correctable, personally drafted by

:49:46. > :49:53.the secretary, signed off by Cabinet ministers. This sort of dictating on

:49:54. > :49:58.the curriculum has been putting the screws, in straight jackets. We have

:49:59. > :50:02.seen the narrowing of curriculums, schools hoping to improve Ofsted

:50:03. > :50:11.judgments, on measurements. The origins of the Academy programme, it

:50:12. > :50:13.was about new partners and innovation, but the wholesale

:50:14. > :50:19.academisation programme, is going to treat a one-dimensional system. It

:50:20. > :50:27.is no wonder, the Chief Executive of England's largest Academy gene, has

:50:28. > :50:30.admitted, even less autonomy for schools, than local authority

:50:31. > :50:36.schools. If the right honourable gentleman wants to comment on that,

:50:37. > :50:46.more than welcome. Thank you very much. Being generous. She has asked

:50:47. > :50:54.us to support the motion, in her name, this came and Prime Minister's

:50:55. > :51:02.Questions, 3.3.1 of the paper makes it clear. Clearly, not the

:51:03. > :51:07.opportunity, to clarify, which he take the opportunity, to strike that

:51:08. > :51:11.from the motion? I am happy to clarify that the government proposes

:51:12. > :51:17.to move the requirement, if you want to have a semantic debate, it is an

:51:18. > :51:20.the white paper, on the same page. She can have the opportunity on

:51:21. > :51:27.that, in a minute. I'm going to carry on.

:51:28. > :51:34.It may come as a surprise to many members opposite that the

:51:35. > :51:38.government's free school and economy agenda has shifted in policy and

:51:39. > :51:43.practice away from stand-alone academies to Matt or chain models.

:51:44. > :51:52.This was clear in the government's White Paper. The guidance issued

:51:53. > :51:58.yesterday said, and I quote, "We expect that most schools will form

:51:59. > :52:02.or joint mats as we become academies". There is evidence that

:52:03. > :52:09.schools do better working collaboratively. The evidence of the

:52:10. > :52:13.performance of change so far is next. There are some notably good

:52:14. > :52:21.academy chains, but there are many more that are unaltered. Only 20

:52:22. > :52:24.have been assessed and just three have been more effective than

:52:25. > :52:30.non-academies. I am not going to give way again. Sir Michael Wilshaw

:52:31. > :52:34.only a week before the budget wrote to the secretary of state

:52:35. > :52:40.highlighting serious weaknesses in academy chains. He said... Academy

:52:41. > :52:44.chains are worse than the worst performing local authorities they

:52:45. > :52:49.seem to replace. To continue with forced academisation of all schools

:52:50. > :52:54.after such a damning letter is frankly irresponsible. There are

:52:55. > :52:59.many questions here. Academy chains are in their infancy and clearly

:53:00. > :53:09.require a law, but the government want them to take an thousands more

:53:10. > :53:14.schools. One of the main reasons that the track record of many chains

:53:15. > :53:23.is not good is because there is a dearth of any real oversight or

:53:24. > :53:28.accountability. I share the concern expressed, when one said we are in

:53:29. > :53:33.danger of creating distant, unaccountable bureaucracy is for

:53:34. > :53:42.schools. But the Department for Education, via its small group of

:53:43. > :53:46.school commissioners, can provide accountability, that is for the

:53:47. > :53:55.birds. It is impossible and undesirable. It seems hell-bent on

:53:56. > :54:01.cutting out parents from having any say over how their child's School is

:54:02. > :54:09.run. Let's talk about abolishing parent governors and removing any

:54:10. > :54:18.role for parents in choosing whether and what type of academy this child

:54:19. > :54:23.-- their child's school has become has been met with outcry. I

:54:24. > :54:31.understand he wants to clarify that parent's can still be governors. But

:54:32. > :54:35.she knows there will not be plans to help them on. I do not pick this is

:54:36. > :54:39.the clarification parents are looking for. Perhaps she wants to

:54:40. > :54:45.take this opportunity to go further. She and I both know that, in a world

:54:46. > :54:49.of academy chains, the role of individual school governing bodies

:54:50. > :54:52.is greatly diminished and key decisions are taken by the two new

:54:53. > :54:56.levels above school governing bodies, the board of Trustees and

:54:57. > :55:04.the member board above that. Bodies which are all too often appointed by

:55:05. > :55:12.the head or Chief Executive they are hoping to hold to account. If they

:55:13. > :55:17.want to avoid more scandals and if schools are to genuinely be held to

:55:18. > :55:27.account, we need a much more robust governance regime that remote trust

:55:28. > :55:32.-- trustee boards are appointed. There are also very real issues on

:55:33. > :55:37.the ground about accountability and responsibility for excluding

:55:38. > :55:43.children placing children with other policies, all of which have very

:55:44. > :55:50.real problems under this fragmented system. It also doesn't meet the

:55:51. > :56:01.needs of the local communities. We cannot have a situation like that.

:56:02. > :56:07.One place, where the last ale a level provision is about to be lost

:56:08. > :56:11.taken by one school. There has to be a better approach that involves

:56:12. > :56:17.school leaders, councils as well as parents. And, for a government

:56:18. > :56:22.claiming to lead the devolution revolution, their centralisation of

:56:23. > :56:26.schools is wrong-headed and contradictory. In places like my

:56:27. > :56:33.own, the Chancellor talks of releasing combined authority to

:56:34. > :56:38.create a Northern Powerhouse. That the skills of the next generation

:56:39. > :56:45.are being taken away at the same time shows what a sham. So this

:56:46. > :56:49.leads me to one last argument the government seems to make. That it

:56:50. > :56:54.would be simpler to have won funding system. This is nonsense and

:56:55. > :56:58.certainly does not support the ?1.3 billion reorganisation of the school

:56:59. > :57:03.system is being proposed. It is disingenuous of the government to

:57:04. > :57:07.link this proposal is to be fair funding consultation. There is a

:57:08. > :57:11.broad support for this model, as long as deprived areas and areas

:57:12. > :57:15.which require improvements to not lose out. Forcing all schools to

:57:16. > :57:23.become academies does not need to be linked to this. I will give way one

:57:24. > :57:31.last time. I think she is absolutely right to say we should not be

:57:32. > :57:37.debating certain things. But when you reach a certain point of

:57:38. > :57:43.becoming academies, it is sensible to have a discussion about what

:57:44. > :57:49.future role there should be four assistance as we understand them. It

:57:50. > :58:00.seems we have arrived at that tipping point and it's right to have

:58:01. > :58:06.an -- a debate. -- for LEAs. With primary schools, only 7% of schools

:58:07. > :58:10.are academies and a longer-term look would be welcome, but an arbitrary

:58:11. > :58:13.timetable, set by the Chancellor and Prime Minister as part of their

:58:14. > :58:19.legacy, I think is a total falsehood. Anyway, we have had for

:58:20. > :58:23.decades a multifaceted funding arrangement for our schools and

:58:24. > :58:29.there is no real reason this cannot continue. To summarise, the proposal

:58:30. > :58:34.to force all schools to become academies or part of chains is

:58:35. > :58:38.costly, which schools do not want or need. At a time when heads are

:58:39. > :58:45.dealing with some very big and real challenges, teacher shortages, cuts

:58:46. > :58:50.to budgets, flux and chaos in assessment and insufficient school

:58:51. > :58:54.places, to ask them to take time out to change their legal status and

:58:55. > :58:58.become an academy against their wish is wrong and will impact on

:58:59. > :59:01.standards. This agenda is not about school improvement, because most of

:59:02. > :59:07.the schools affected are already good or outstanding. It's not about

:59:08. > :59:11.more autonomy or choice, as a one size fits all approach is being

:59:12. > :59:16.forced. But what about parents, as they are being cut out of the

:59:17. > :59:20.picture and not devolution, but centralisation. And there are very

:59:21. > :59:25.real and serious concerns about capacity, oversight, accountability

:59:26. > :59:29.and her plans. There is a growing alliance of heads and governors and

:59:30. > :59:34.parents, teachers and politicians from all parties and many of the

:59:35. > :59:39.original advocates of the academy programme against forced wholesale

:59:40. > :59:43.academisation. This government, the government which used to say they

:59:44. > :59:48.were all for choice, who professes to be about standards, which claims

:59:49. > :59:52.to be on the side of parents and schools seems to be ploughing on

:59:53. > :59:57.regardless of about a single coherent argument to support them,

:59:58. > :00:02.nor a shred of credible evidence. They do still have time to listen,

:00:03. > :00:06.to pause and reflect and today's debate gives them a chance to do

:00:07. > :00:15.that and I commend this motion to the house. The question is as on the

:00:16. > :00:21.order paper. I call Nicky Morgan to move the amendment. I will be

:00:22. > :00:30.starting the five-minute limit. Thank you very much indeed.

:00:31. > :00:34.Education is at the heart of this government's mission, because we all

:00:35. > :00:40.know that a good education transforms a child's future. Our

:00:41. > :00:44.white paper sets out our ambition to deliver real social justice by

:00:45. > :00:48.ensuring every child gets an excellent organisation. The motion

:00:49. > :00:52.set up by the opposition is a deliberate misinterpretation of our

:00:53. > :00:59.proposals to transform schools. As we have heard, it contains at least

:01:00. > :01:04.two errors in it, including an parent governors. I am afraid that

:01:05. > :01:06.the interventions from the lady are starting to follow a familiar

:01:07. > :01:10.pattern of scaremongering and ignoring the achievements of the

:01:11. > :01:17.teaching profession and education systems. I know that since her

:01:18. > :01:23.appointment she has yet to propose a single positive idea. We didn't hear

:01:24. > :01:30.any more today as to how we raise standards across England's schools.

:01:31. > :01:35.I will take the intervention. I also much late my friend for bringing

:01:36. > :01:43.this debate today. I wonder if she would address what we in my

:01:44. > :01:46.constituency think are the three most pressing problems, recruitment

:01:47. > :01:53.and retention of good-quality teachers, particularly in some

:01:54. > :01:58.subjects. Also the need to build sufficient secondary school places

:01:59. > :02:04.in time for 2017, which the education funding agency are the

:02:05. > :02:08.cause of delay for. And the need to ensure our children have the skills

:02:09. > :02:17.for employment markets locally when they leave. And... Can I say to her

:02:18. > :02:22.I am delighted she's engaging in the issues, which have real concern to

:02:23. > :02:27.her constituency. And I do not know whether she has had a chance to beat

:02:28. > :02:31.all of the paper, but many of the answers, I will come onto

:02:32. > :02:39.recruitment in a moment, this government, this party has spent ?23

:02:40. > :02:46.billion so far on building new accommodation. 600,000 more school

:02:47. > :02:52.places... And I am going to finish answering. And I hope she is also

:02:53. > :02:56.engaged with the new enterprise advisor in her area, who is doing

:02:57. > :03:04.exactly what she said about engaging young people in careers. I am going

:03:05. > :03:08.to make some progress. I do need to ask, given the drafting of the

:03:09. > :03:12.motion, how much the Shadow Education Secretary has read,

:03:13. > :03:16.because only one of the eight chapters is concerned with every

:03:17. > :03:27.school becoming an academy. It is not a schools White Paper, it is

:03:28. > :03:30.not, as she stated. It is an education White Paper. I haven't

:03:31. > :03:40.heard anything on the other seven chapters. About our vision to see

:03:41. > :03:44.Educational Excellence Everywhere. And to set high expectations for

:03:45. > :03:53.every child with a world leading curriculum. I'm grateful. I am a

:03:54. > :03:57.supporter of the academies programme and the experienced in my

:03:58. > :04:01.constituency is largely positive. I am disappointed to see the

:04:02. > :04:05.opposition both cold one of their proudest innovations. As a

:04:06. > :04:12.conservative, I also believe in choice. Could she outlined to me the

:04:13. > :04:17.downside of allowing academies to migrate organically or schools to

:04:18. > :04:27.migrate organically if they choose to two academy status, rather than

:04:28. > :04:31.forcing a compulsive and arbitrary status. He is right to ask and we

:04:32. > :04:36.are allowing six years will be changed to be made. He will

:04:37. > :04:46.recognise the benefits of allowing front-line professionals, two run

:04:47. > :04:52.their schools. Let me take one more. Like most on the side, I am a great

:04:53. > :04:57.supporter of academies. They have been a great success in my

:04:58. > :05:00.constituency. Will she say something about the capacity of small primary

:05:01. > :05:07.schools, particularly in oral areas to be able to make this change? I

:05:08. > :05:12.absolutely well. And I recognise that there are challenges for

:05:13. > :05:27.smaller schools in terms of taking on the responsibilities. -- rural

:05:28. > :05:32.areas. On the issue of parents, what conclusion are they meant to come to

:05:33. > :05:42.when on page 65 the White Paper says the role of parents is crucial. Our

:05:43. > :05:44.approach puts parents and children first, not through symbolic

:05:45. > :05:48.representation, but through engagement with schools. What

:05:49. > :05:54.conclusion they meant to come to, when of governors, parent governors,

:05:55. > :06:02.over three decades is wrapped up in the word symbolic? The conclusion I

:06:03. > :06:07.will come onto is the fact that we want parents not just to be engaged

:06:08. > :06:11.by governing bodies, but by councils and the ability to make complaints

:06:12. > :06:19.and to be involved in the education and aware of how their child is

:06:20. > :06:25.taught. I am going to make some progress. The truth is, as the

:06:26. > :06:29.amendment makes clear, there is no silver bullet to making

:06:30. > :06:32.improvements. In effort and innovation is required on every

:06:33. > :06:38.front and that is what we have done over the past 60 years. Since 2010,

:06:39. > :06:42.we have seen 1.4 million balk pupils in good and outstanding schools,

:06:43. > :06:47.because of our reforms. Translated into reality by an outstanding

:06:48. > :06:50.teaching profession. To raise standards and free heads and

:06:51. > :06:57.teachers to run schools in a way that works for their students. For

:06:58. > :07:01.all we have unlocked, we have not got excellence everywhere and that

:07:02. > :07:10.everywhere is non-negotiable. I will take one more.

:07:11. > :07:16.Fiscal studies have estimated that schools are going to lose funding,

:07:17. > :07:26.over the next five years, so what is she going to say to parents, who

:07:27. > :07:33.think that the cost of academies is going to put more pressure on the

:07:34. > :07:40.schools. Those members need to refresh their maths. Make

:07:41. > :07:48.calculations, completely wrong. We want to make sure that everywhere,

:07:49. > :07:53.is filled. The white paper makes clear, that we have the most

:07:54. > :08:05.qualified workforce, in the country's history, but we want more

:08:06. > :08:10.support. I was simply going to see, Mr Speaker, does my rate honourable

:08:11. > :08:16.friend not think it is extraordinary, that this paper 's

:08:17. > :08:21.volume of noise, not one person has had the courage to stand up, and

:08:22. > :08:30.there was that something is totally inadequate, that we are trying to

:08:31. > :08:34.ban the role in parents. Every single secondary school in my

:08:35. > :08:45.constituency is an Academy, and they have parents on the board. Excellent

:08:46. > :08:53.point. My honourable friend is absolutely correct. Two errors in

:08:54. > :08:58.the motions. We are absolutely not abolishing the role of parents. And

:08:59. > :09:06.we're not going to be forcing all the skills, to join multi academy

:09:07. > :09:13.school trusts. This could be a semantic argument, but does it not

:09:14. > :09:29.say in the white paper that she is removing the requirement, for parent

:09:30. > :09:36.governors? Yes or no? I just want to remain... If you are going to ask a

:09:37. > :09:47.question, you need to listen to the answer. I am grateful to you. The

:09:48. > :09:58.Shadow Education Secretary motion has said this is not the white

:09:59. > :10:09.paper, proposing the removal, of parents from governing bodies. It

:10:10. > :10:14.does not. If the honourable lady cannot put them in, she needs to go

:10:15. > :10:21.back and do English lessons. I am going to make progress. It is

:10:22. > :10:34.important, honourable hear what is in the white paper. We want to

:10:35. > :10:38.establish a new framework for development, on a par with other

:10:39. > :10:43.professions. I am going to set out what is in the white paper, for the

:10:44. > :10:51.benefit of other members, some of whom on the opposite dangers have

:10:52. > :10:57.not read it. Honestly, I am not going to give way. They are deaf. Mr

:10:58. > :11:09.Deputy Speaker, the white paper outlines the commitment, to make

:11:10. > :11:21.sure it is committed. Yes. Might need a cup of tea. I want to hear

:11:22. > :11:25.both sides. If we can't hear it, what about people out there? It is

:11:26. > :11:33.an important debate, affecting all the constituents, whatever side. The

:11:34. > :11:44.white paper, it a plane teachers are going to be trained, funding, fairly

:11:45. > :11:50.distributed, so that the receive the same level, we want commitments, so

:11:51. > :11:53.that every single changed, receives that, supporting those for whatever

:11:54. > :11:59.reason have fallen out of mainstream education. And we have bold new

:12:00. > :12:08.strategy, that all members should welcome. To tackle areas of chronic

:12:09. > :12:11.underperformance, targeting improvement support, from National

:12:12. > :12:18.education, to teaching skills, the teaching service, areas that need

:12:19. > :12:30.them most. I am grateful to the Secretary of State.

:12:31. > :12:34.The last sixth form A level provision has been withdrawn,

:12:35. > :12:44.concern about this issue, could she explain, why she has refused to meet

:12:45. > :12:53.my honourable friend, and myself, to discuss concerns? Of course, we will

:12:54. > :12:59.meet them. The school minister agreed. The Labour Academy

:13:00. > :13:08.programme, transformed. That is kind. As an MP from Hampshire, Edie

:13:09. > :13:16.Falco Saint of schools, its standing. The concerns, expressed by

:13:17. > :13:27.teachers, locally, it is confusion. My concern, I am sure she can

:13:28. > :13:33.combat, we must not allow the bad to be the enemy. The numbers,

:13:34. > :13:40.converting to academies, relatively low, any reason why Hampshire should

:13:41. > :13:51.not create a new service, can already continue to be delivered?

:13:52. > :13:57.Absolutely right to say, new role for local authorities, to set-top

:13:58. > :14:04.trusts, provides services and build on the excellent. But I will set

:14:05. > :14:10.out, why rethink by schools run by the front-line professionals is the

:14:11. > :14:16.most sustainable model for all of the pupils. I am going to make

:14:17. > :14:19.progress, a lot of people want to speak, and because of the noise I

:14:20. > :14:26.have not been able to set out what is inside the white paper. Why not

:14:27. > :14:32.spread the transformation that we have seen from the academies, to

:14:33. > :14:46.enable excellent provision for all children's. We saw, autonomy, giving

:14:47. > :14:52.strong sponsors the freedom of flexibility, and no reason, why did

:14:53. > :14:58.an outstanding leaders should not have that as well. We want to Michu

:14:59. > :15:06.that schools are going to be run by those who know them best, enabling

:15:07. > :15:15.cooperation, giving parents more of say, moving over the next six years,

:15:16. > :15:21.to meet every school and Academy. No doubt, we all want the best for the

:15:22. > :15:29.children. And at Dorset, we have both. But can I suggest caution, one

:15:30. > :15:33.size fits all always makes me nervous. The natural progression,

:15:34. > :15:43.from one to the other, probably the best, rather than the imposition. I

:15:44. > :15:48.entirely understand, based on his experiences, and I have the benefit

:15:49. > :15:54.of visiting schools across the country, despite schools becoming

:15:55. > :15:56.academies, also lots of different models, different sizes, and

:15:57. > :16:04.different opportunities for headteachers. Big, small,

:16:05. > :16:08.collaboration, alternative provision. We have an amazing

:16:09. > :16:16.education system. It is something to be welcomed and celebrated. I want

:16:17. > :16:21.to thank the Secretary of State. The Labour MPs, opposite, talking

:16:22. > :16:28.positively about the transformative are fixed. I am particularly proud,

:16:29. > :16:35.but I am a conservative because I believe in choice. Does the

:16:36. > :16:41.Secretary of State agree that we should put our trust in parents in

:16:42. > :16:52.governing bodies, can she look at this phrase? I also trust parents

:16:53. > :16:56.and governing bodies, and we have the appetite across the country, for

:16:57. > :17:01.headteachers to take on more responsibilities, not be told what

:17:02. > :17:08.to do by local authorities. Making choices, based for the schools,

:17:09. > :17:15.pupils and communities. The last intervention. The Secretary of

:17:16. > :17:20.State, I think is going to confirm, this is the white paper, but she has

:17:21. > :17:27.also worked with Conservative controlled local authorities, good

:17:28. > :17:32.records of keeping open local poverty schools. Can we have a

:17:33. > :17:37.compromise, so that county councils will not be forced, to lose control,

:17:38. > :17:43.it is essential at these rural areas that we keep them open. I know that

:17:44. > :17:51.it is a compromise, not forcing anything on anybody. I was meeting

:17:52. > :17:57.some of the LGA members, this morning, to discuss those points.

:17:58. > :18:02.They have welcomed the moves, about how we want to clarify how the moves

:18:03. > :18:05.will be looking in the future. And of course, providing excellent

:18:06. > :18:10.services, so nothing to stop those excellent services continuing. But

:18:11. > :18:12.my rate honourable friend is correct, we will continue with

:18:13. > :18:20.discussions. I am going to make some progress. A lot of members want to

:18:21. > :18:27.speak in this debate. The Academy programme, takes the belief that the

:18:28. > :18:29.services should be run by front-line professionals. International

:18:30. > :18:35.evidence has shown that the autonomy, is linked to improved

:18:36. > :18:47.performance, and it must be in place. Test scores higher, when

:18:48. > :19:00.Skills manage budget, and managed just. Academies, better teachers,

:19:01. > :19:06.innovation, teachers rewarded and academies are better for pupils,

:19:07. > :19:14.taking advantage of new opportunities, for the government to

:19:15. > :19:19.intervene. Mr Deputy Speaker, we have already talked about the fact

:19:20. > :19:23.that we want parents to be more involved, not less, and as the Prime

:19:24. > :19:27.Minister has said, we have never suggested that the should not be

:19:28. > :19:35.sitting on government bodies. We support parents, always being