04/05/2016

:00:00. > :00:15.. Urgent question. And maimed. Thank you, Mr Speaker.. I would like to

:00:16. > :00:20.ask the secretary of state to make a statement on the reforms to Dublin

:00:21. > :00:27.agreement on the effects of asylum. The Minister at the Home Office.

:00:28. > :00:31.Thank you, Mr Speaker. This morning the European Commission published

:00:32. > :00:37.its proposals for reform of the Dublin protocol and emergency

:00:38. > :00:40.relocation in response to the migration crisis in the

:00:41. > :00:45.Mediterranean. These proposals were first announced under the EU Turkey

:00:46. > :00:48.deal and agreement is critical to finding a solution to Europe's

:00:49. > :00:53.asylum systems ahead of the summer. The Government will now scrutinise

:00:54. > :01:00.these proposals carefully. As the House will be aware, the UK has an

:01:01. > :01:05.opt in to any EU proposals on justice and home affairs issues. It

:01:06. > :01:09.is not bound to sign the proposals the commission has published today

:01:10. > :01:14.and we will have three months to consider whether or not to do so.

:01:15. > :01:18.The proposals will be laid before Parliament and an explanatory

:01:19. > :01:21.memorandum will be provided. Scrutiny committees in both houses

:01:22. > :01:27.will look at this in detail and Parliament will be able to consider

:01:28. > :01:29.these proposals in the usual way. The Government strongly supports the

:01:30. > :01:34.principles behind the Dublin regulation. We believe that an

:01:35. > :01:38.asylum claim made in the EU should be dealt with by the member state

:01:39. > :01:43.most responsible for the applicant 's presence in the EU. This provides

:01:44. > :01:49.certainty for the applicant and protect other member states asylum

:01:50. > :01:55.systems from abuse. But our starting position is clear. We will not opt

:01:56. > :01:57.in any legislative proposal that replaces the existing Dublin

:01:58. > :02:03.principles with a redistribution mechanism. And we do not support

:02:04. > :02:06.relocation. Those in need of protection should claim asylum at

:02:07. > :02:09.the first save country they reach. We support the existing Dublin

:02:10. > :02:14.regulations and the principles underpinning them. In this context

:02:15. > :02:19.it is worth noting that the commission themselves have been very

:02:20. > :02:23.clear today that, should we not opt revised Dublin regulations, the

:02:24. > :02:30.existing regulations will continue to apply between the UK and other

:02:31. > :02:34.member states. This is at least part a direct result of a government's

:02:35. > :02:39.engagement with the commission and other member states. As such, there

:02:40. > :02:45.is no risk that we would lose our existing powers to return people to

:02:46. > :02:53.other EU member states. Powers that we have used nearly 12,000 times

:02:54. > :02:56.since 2005. Where an individual is responsibility of another member

:02:57. > :03:00.state under EU law, the Government will seek to return them under the

:03:01. > :03:06.Dublin regulations and we will continue to do so. We have been

:03:07. > :03:09.engaged in regular constructive conversations with our European

:03:10. > :03:13.counterparts and the European Commission and will participate

:03:14. > :03:17.fully in the negotiations of this draft proposal at European level as

:03:18. > :03:25.these proposals are negotiated. I commend this statement to the House.

:03:26. > :03:29.Thank you, Mr Speaker. I thank him for his statement, and am somewhat

:03:30. > :03:33.concerned it seem as if all we know what this beloved light in reality

:03:34. > :03:38.given that we have got a very big referendum coming up between that

:03:39. > :03:42.time. Will he say, he said debris, it should not be undermined, and

:03:43. > :03:48.it ensures a printable EU countries can deport refugees to their first

:03:49. > :03:52.port of entry as he's just reconfirmed, and the Secretary of

:03:53. > :03:55.State recently restated her views that amending the Dublin regulation

:03:56. > :04:01.is unnecessary and risks undermining a vital tool in managing asylum

:04:02. > :04:03.claims within the EU. Despite her views, the EU commission is pressing

:04:04. > :04:08.ahead with reforms and that's despite many countries expressing

:04:09. > :04:13.their extreme disquiet. Under the existing laws written ostensibly has

:04:14. > :04:18.the right to deport asylum seekers to their first port of entry however

:04:19. > :04:23.in practice, that means he did give a figure but it's only 1% of asylum

:04:24. > :04:27.seekers from the UK each year relocated to the first port of entry

:04:28. > :04:31.according to Eurostat. Does he accept this very low figure of only

:04:32. > :04:35.1% of relocation is being accurate and if so, can you explain why the

:04:36. > :04:39.UK is performing so badly and the current regulations? In practice,

:04:40. > :04:43.the Dublin agreement is far from perfect and the EU was desperate to

:04:44. > :04:48.find ways of evening out the numbers of asylum seekers but not rocking

:04:49. > :04:51.the British boats before the referendum and even the European

:04:52. > :04:55.Commission has acknowledged the current system doesn't work. Germany

:04:56. > :04:59.is all but abandoned it and Greece is not abiding by it apparently

:05:00. > :05:03.since 2011. The commission recently stated that even when member states

:05:04. > :05:09.accept transfer requests, only a quarter of such cases reported in

:05:10. > :05:13.effective transfers and after that there were frequent cases of

:05:14. > :05:18.secondary movements transfer Mink back member state. Does he accept

:05:19. > :05:25.even the low number of relocation is 1%, we are obliged to readmit those

:05:26. > :05:29.individuals under the process? Does he have any figures to inform the

:05:30. > :05:35.House how many are actually relocated back to the UK?

:05:36. > :05:40.Given the low numbers currently sent back under the system, does the

:05:41. > :05:44.minister then still believe that this is a good deal for Britain?

:05:45. > :05:49.Despite the haggling and horse trading going on behind closed doors

:05:50. > :05:53.as we speak, the Secretary of State, has the Secretary of State secured

:05:54. > :05:56.permanent and favourable opt out and any form of quota sharing that

:05:57. > :06:02.cannot be overruled at any point in the future by other member

:06:03. > :06:06.countries? It is important to know this. These proposals are part of a

:06:07. > :06:09.package to manage the surge in migrants and refugees flooding into

:06:10. > :06:15.Europe. The commission is currently in the process of revising measures

:06:16. > :06:19.in the Dublin regular gin, namely of imposing a financial penalty of

:06:20. > :06:24.250,000 euros on every refugee not taken by a country if another member

:06:25. > :06:28.state's experiences of sudden influx. How will this new quota

:06:29. > :06:34.penalty system proposals it with the current Dublin proposal the minister

:06:35. > :06:38.says he wishes to stay in? Finally, has the minister secured a permanent

:06:39. > :06:43.and favourable opt out from any form of penalty payment that might be

:06:44. > :06:46.negotiated in the future for nonacceptance of quotas? And would

:06:47. > :06:51.that not be overruled at any point in the future by other member

:06:52. > :06:56.countries? Order. Before the minister responds, two points should

:06:57. > :06:59.be made. First of all, I say in all courtesy and gently to the

:07:00. > :07:03.honourable lady that she modestly exceeded her time allocation. I am

:07:04. > :07:10.sure that was inadvertent and will not be repeated. Secondly, equally

:07:11. > :07:15.courteously, I say to the minister, with reference to his final

:07:16. > :07:17.statement commending his statement to the House, the honourable

:07:18. > :07:20.gentleman did not make a statement to the House. He could have

:07:21. > :07:24.volunteered one. The reason the honourable gentleman is in the

:07:25. > :07:30.chamber is that I've acquired a minister to attend the chamber to

:07:31. > :07:34.answer the urgent question from the honourable lady. It may seem a fine

:07:35. > :07:38.distinction to those attending our proceedings, but it is an important

:07:39. > :07:42.one. The honourable gentleman is here involuntarily and not

:07:43. > :07:48.involuntarily! I hope the position is now clear. He doesn't need to be

:07:49. > :07:54.deported, we want him to answer the question!

:07:55. > :08:00.Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am always the servant of the House in this

:08:01. > :08:05.regard. On the various points my honourable friend has raised, I can

:08:06. > :08:10.say that the UK does have a clear opt in arrangement in relation to

:08:11. > :08:17.justice and home affairs matters. Therefore, we do retain that ability

:08:18. > :08:24.to decide which measures that fall within the Justice and home affairs

:08:25. > :08:29.matters we decide to opt into, as I explained in my opening comments. In

:08:30. > :08:34.relation to the benefit, yes, we do see significant benefit from the

:08:35. > :08:38.existing Dublin regulations. We have sought to remove nearly 12,000

:08:39. > :08:44.people from the UK to other EU member states over the last ten

:08:45. > :08:53.years using that process. She highlights the issue of whether in

:08:54. > :08:55.some way, we may subsequently be required to be participants of the

:08:56. > :09:00.new arrangements. I would want her to a statement that was published

:09:01. > :09:05.within the European Commission's press release, which says that the

:09:06. > :09:07.UK and Ireland are not required, but instead determined themselves the

:09:08. > :09:10.extent to which they want to participate in these measures, in

:09:11. > :09:14.accordance with the relevant protocol is attached to the

:09:15. > :09:18.treaties. If they do not opt in, the current laws, as they operate today,

:09:19. > :09:24.will continue to apply to them in line with the treaties. That is

:09:25. > :09:31.important in terms of the clarification she was seeking.

:09:32. > :09:34.Clearly, because of the opt in, we have that protection in relation to

:09:35. > :09:37.matters as to whether we decide to opt in or not. That provides

:09:38. > :09:50.protection on the quota penalty she referred to. So Keir Starmer. Let us

:09:51. > :09:54.be clear from the start. Through our opt out, Britain would not be

:09:55. > :09:57.required to take part in any asylum relocation system, nor would we be

:09:58. > :10:04.required to pay any financial levy to avoid it. But it is also keen

:10:05. > :10:06.that -- clear that we have a keen national interest and moral

:10:07. > :10:10.responsibility to ensure effective systems are in place to tackle the

:10:11. > :10:15.worst humanitarian crisis in a decade in Europe, a crisis on a

:10:16. > :10:19.scale that clearly needs a concerted, EU wide response. It is

:10:20. > :10:25.clear that the Dublin arrangements are not working on the ground. They

:10:26. > :10:29.are not able to cope with the numbers and to process the claims

:10:30. > :10:32.that need to be processed. We in Labour have been calling for a

:10:33. > :10:36.reconsideration of how the Dublin arrangements work in practice for

:10:37. > :10:42.many months, precisely on these grounds. The government, as ever,

:10:43. > :10:47.has been slow and reluctant to act, characterised by the involuntary

:10:48. > :10:51.appearance here today. Labour is also clear that the key Dublin

:10:52. > :10:55.principles preventing first country states from refusing to process

:10:56. > :10:58.asylum seekers and allowing return to first country are important

:10:59. > :11:02.intervals. So we welcome the government's update on this, but

:11:03. > :11:08.what proposals have they made to the commission on reform? Mr Speaker,

:11:09. > :11:13.there is also the wider question of unaccompanied children in Europe

:11:14. > :11:16.today, the chair of the Kindertransport Association of

:11:17. > :11:19.Jewish refugees called on the Prime Minister to do more to help what he

:11:20. > :11:25.called the most vulnerable victims of the Syrian conflict. We cannot

:11:26. > :11:29.continue to sit on our hands. We can't continue with the repetition

:11:30. > :11:35.of the repugnant rhetoric that these children in Europe are safe. They

:11:36. > :11:40.are not. There is a groundswell of support. When will the Government

:11:41. > :11:47.finally listen? If there is to be a U-turn on this issue, the sooner it

:11:48. > :11:52.happens, the better. I gain from the honourable gentleman's comments that

:11:53. > :11:55.he did not hear what the Prime Minister said at prime ministers

:11:56. > :12:01.question time a few moments ago in respect of how we are in discussions

:12:02. > :12:06.with Save The Children and the UNHCR in terms of what assistance can be

:12:07. > :12:12.provided to those already registered in Europe before the EU Turkey deal

:12:13. > :12:19.came into force and the discussions we will have with local authorities.

:12:20. > :12:22.I reject the point he makes about the government's slowness to react

:12:23. > :12:27.in relation to the Dublin begin nations. That is why we have sent

:12:28. > :12:33.experts to France and other European countries to support that process,

:12:34. > :12:38.to see that there is that practical implementation on the ground. That

:12:39. > :12:44.is bearing fruit and seeing a speeding up of the process. The

:12:45. > :12:48.honourable gentleman equally highlights issues around the Dublin

:12:49. > :12:52.regulation itself. The government believes that the long-standing

:12:53. > :12:55.principle is at the heart of the Dublin system are the right ones,

:12:56. > :12:59.and it would be a major error to tear them up and replace them with

:13:00. > :13:03.something completely different. Dublin may not be operating as it

:13:04. > :13:06.should, but that does not mean it principles are fundamentally flawed.

:13:07. > :13:11.That is the approach this government will take in terms of further

:13:12. > :13:14.negotiation. No honourable members in this House will have seen the

:13:15. > :13:19.proposals in detail, because they have only just been published.

:13:20. > :13:22.Therefore, it is right to reflect on them in detail and continue

:13:23. > :13:26.discussions to see that we have a reformed Dublin that benefits the

:13:27. > :13:33.UK, whilst recognising the protections we have to maintain the

:13:34. > :13:36.existing Dublin arrangements. I congratulate my honourable friend,

:13:37. > :13:43.the member for St Albans, for not only putting forward a question, but

:13:44. > :13:46.also for the manner in which she conducted the analysis. She is

:13:47. > :13:51.right, of course. The European scrutiny committee looking at this

:13:52. > :13:55.matter and will be talking about it this afternoon. Would the minister

:13:56. > :13:59.be good enough to give us an assurance that if we so decide,

:14:00. > :14:02.which I feel we will, that there should be a debate on the floor of

:14:03. > :14:07.the House, that he would encourage that? And would he also make sure

:14:08. > :14:11.this matter is not left hanging around for as long as three month

:14:12. > :14:18.'s? We need an urgent and quick answer to these questions. The

:14:19. > :14:22.three-month time period is the period we have as the UK to consider

:14:23. > :14:25.whether to opt into measures at the outset, as he will know. That is one

:14:26. > :14:32.of the protections we have in terms of our relationship with the EU

:14:33. > :14:37.under Justice and home affairs matters. The commission has its

:14:38. > :14:45.papers this morning. I am sure that we'll see scrutiny in detail by the

:14:46. > :14:49.European scrutiny committee. And the government will provide information

:14:50. > :14:54.and support that process to see that this measure is properly scrutinised

:14:55. > :15:03.by this house. There is not any delay on the government's part in

:15:04. > :15:07.relation to the three months. The Dublin rules were not fit for

:15:08. > :15:11.purpose even before the current crisis in Europe developed. That

:15:12. > :15:14.crisis has pushed the system way beyond breaking point. Even a child

:15:15. > :15:18.could understand that front line countries such as Greece and Italy

:15:19. > :15:22.cannot be expected to deal alone with all the asylum seekers who

:15:23. > :15:26.arrived there. This proposed system of financial penalties would be an

:15:27. > :15:29.improvement, but it is a distant second best to the proper sharing of

:15:30. > :15:32.responsibility throughout the European Union. Can the minister

:15:33. > :15:37.tell us, if the UK are not prepared to sign up to the new EU asylum

:15:38. > :15:42.system, exactly what steps the government will take in order for

:15:43. > :15:45.the UK to do its bit for those already in Europe, particularly the

:15:46. > :15:51.child refugees? One I was in Calais with other SNP MPs at Easter, we met

:15:52. > :15:54.many refugees with family in the UK, and we met men who had acted as

:15:55. > :15:59.interpreters for the UK Armed Forces, including men who had been

:16:00. > :16:02.at Camp Bastion at the same time as Prince Harry and when the Prime

:16:03. > :16:08.Minister visited. The government keeps assuring us that they are

:16:09. > :16:12.taking action to speed up processes. But will the minister now provide us

:16:13. > :16:17.with the figures on processing times, which we have repeatedly

:16:18. > :16:21.asked for, so that we can have some evidence that these requests are

:16:22. > :16:27.being more speedily with? Secondly and more fundamentally, there is a

:16:28. > :16:31.problem on the French side of things being handled slowly. Many refugees

:16:32. > :16:35.in Calais and Dunkirk are afraid to claim asylum in France because of

:16:36. > :16:38.the very bad experiences they have had their already, including being

:16:39. > :16:42.tear-gassed by French authorities. Will the British government consider

:16:43. > :16:45.building a route to bypass the French system and allow direct

:16:46. > :16:56.claims to the UK, based on family ties? In terms of the time it is

:16:57. > :17:01.taking to process the relevant requests under the existing Dublin

:17:02. > :17:04.arrangements, they are being processed in a matter of weeks, as I

:17:05. > :17:12.have indicated to the honourable lady previously. And it is through

:17:13. > :17:18.having those direct contacts between the officials on both sides that are

:17:19. > :17:22.able to make speedy decisions to work to see that those who have

:17:23. > :17:26.those links to the UK can be reunited. That is a principle of

:17:27. > :17:30.this government believes in strongly. Equally, the work we are

:17:31. > :17:35.going through additional funding and investment in other parts of Europe

:17:36. > :17:40.is intended to support that. She highlights the issue over the

:17:41. > :17:46.actions of the French government. I would say that the French government

:17:47. > :17:50.have a specific NGO that they have engaged to work with those in the

:17:51. > :17:56.camps to be able to identify, to see that they are protected speedily. We

:17:57. > :17:59.support that work and will continue to support the French government and

:18:00. > :18:03.play our part in seeing that those who have that connection to the UK

:18:04. > :18:08.are established, identified and come to the UK quickly. Mr Kenneth

:18:09. > :18:14.Clarke. With the minister agree with me that the migrant crisis we face

:18:15. > :18:17.is our part of a crisis that affects every European Union member state

:18:18. > :18:25.and requires a European Union solution? It is a complete absurdity

:18:26. > :18:32.first promulgated by Ukip that somehow, if we left the EU, these

:18:33. > :18:36.people would no longer be a problem. As the government has played a full

:18:37. > :18:42.part in the limited progress so far in closing the of Europe and making

:18:43. > :18:45.arrangement with Turkey for the return of asylum seekers, does he

:18:46. > :18:51.accept that we are quite entitled legally to insist on the Dublin

:18:52. > :18:55.Convention, and of course, we must exercise our opt out when it is in

:18:56. > :18:57.our interests, but actually, we have to have regards to the problems of

:18:58. > :19:04.Greece, Italy and other countries who have not encouraged these vast

:19:05. > :19:08.numbers to come to them, and we will need the cooperation of those

:19:09. > :19:11.governments if eventually, we are to restore the situation to order in

:19:12. > :19:12.every member state including the United Kingdom?

:19:13. > :19:20.My right honourable friend is absolutely right in this being an EU

:19:21. > :19:25.wide problem and it is something we will need to continue to address at

:19:26. > :19:28.that level and somehow, by the UK leaving the EU on the referendum,

:19:29. > :19:31.that will suddenly make the migration crisis go away, that is

:19:32. > :19:38.clearly not the case. He talks about Turkey and Italy, sorry, Greece and

:19:39. > :19:42.Italy, and he will equally know the Turkey deal is absolutely intended

:19:43. > :19:47.to support those issues on the front line and how we are sending out

:19:48. > :19:56.experts from next week around 75, to support the front line activity in

:19:57. > :20:01.Greece. Thank you, Mr Speaker. In his heart, the Minister for Public

:20:02. > :20:06.accepts everything the Honourable lady for Saint Alden 's has said

:20:07. > :20:12.today. The Dublin agreement is in crisis, not because of the UK, but

:20:13. > :20:16.because other countries in the EU are flouting the way in which it

:20:17. > :20:21.operates, the Home Affairs Select Committee, we've seen for ourselves,

:20:22. > :20:26.when the visited Greece and Italy, and what other partners need to do

:20:27. > :20:30.is to fulfil their obligations under Dublin, deal with these matters in

:20:31. > :20:36.their country, so people do not end up coming to Calais seeking to come

:20:37. > :20:40.over to the UK. To do this, maybe just 10% of the money that is gone

:20:41. > :20:45.to Turkey, the EU Turkey deal with the most generous in history, we

:20:46. > :20:54.need to support Greece and Italy, these other countries need our

:20:55. > :20:58.support. He will know, as I just indicated, the practical support we

:20:59. > :21:01.are providing to the European Asylum support office, to those front line

:21:02. > :21:05.member states who have seen significant numbers arriving on

:21:06. > :21:11.their shores and, in terms of the funding that we have provided, ?70

:21:12. > :21:14.million of funding to the response, that obviously is a significant

:21:15. > :21:19.contribution to support the activities that are needed to

:21:20. > :21:22.support vulnerable migrants there. Here's right in saying we need to

:21:23. > :21:26.continue to work with Greece, Italy, precisely what this Government will

:21:27. > :21:34.continue to do, recognising the pressures those governments are

:21:35. > :21:37.under. The EU documents about the EU Turkey agreement and the creation of

:21:38. > :21:43.the Visa free area for most of the EU and Turkey made very clear that

:21:44. > :21:50.part of this policy has to be strengthening the Turkish frontier

:21:51. > :21:54.with Syria, Iraq and Iran and the document quite remarkably, strangely

:21:55. > :21:58.says it's going to help build walls and fences and ditches over what is

:21:59. > :22:03.an extremely long border. Can he tell us how many miles of these

:22:04. > :22:11.impediments to migration EU has in mind and what the cost might be? The

:22:12. > :22:15.clear focus is on seeing refugees do not make the journeys across the

:22:16. > :22:20.Mediterranean Sea to the shores of Europe, which is consistent with the

:22:21. > :22:24.approach this Government has taken and why we have clearly pledged the

:22:25. > :22:29.?2.3 billion we have two the humanitarian crisis and how that is

:22:30. > :22:35.giving that sense of hope and opportunity to those that are there

:22:36. > :22:37.through work, education. That is the right approach to ensure that we are

:22:38. > :22:42.giving that sense of why people should not be making those journeys,

:22:43. > :22:49.and how the EU Turkey deal supports that. I know the Minister is very

:22:50. > :22:53.proud of his pudding but he seems to agree that in principle, the refugee

:22:54. > :23:02.crisis is a European crisis which requires collective action. If we

:23:03. > :23:07.were having the broken instead of the Dublin regulations, what exactly

:23:08. > :23:10.would they be? I'm very grateful to the right honourable gentleman for

:23:11. > :23:16.his frame of the question in that way. It underlines the need for each

:23:17. > :23:22.EU member state to play a part, which is precisely what the UK is

:23:23. > :23:27.doing. We are providing expert support, funding, and very

:23:28. > :23:32.significant aspect in relation to the issue of resettlement, and the

:23:33. > :23:37.new children at risk resettlement scheme. We think the basic

:23:38. > :23:44.principles of Dublin are right, they need to be upheld, it is how we can

:23:45. > :23:47.improve the practical aspects of it. The Dublin Convention requires the

:23:48. > :23:52.collection of biometric data from migrants if it is to work optimally,

:23:53. > :23:57.a process which understandably the more savvy migrant declines to

:23:58. > :24:00.cooperate with, probably with the connivance of the Italian and Greek

:24:01. > :24:08.officials. What can be done to strengthen that part of the Dublin

:24:09. > :24:11.arrangement? This is about practical implementation. The 75 experts we

:24:12. > :24:17.are sending out to Greece, other European countries are doing the

:24:18. > :24:21.same, to see the practical measure, taking fingerprints, is upheld the

:24:22. > :24:26.front line and that practical support I think will make the

:24:27. > :24:32.difference. Does the Minister accept that the regulations should be a

:24:33. > :24:36.flaw in what we do and not a ceiling? With that in mind, will you

:24:37. > :24:42.look again at the treatment of those who claim asylum now who previously

:24:43. > :24:46.helped the Armed Forces in Afghanistan as interpreters,

:24:47. > :24:52.because, frankly, if they had treated us as we now treat them,

:24:53. > :24:56.then the lives of many, many of our service men would have been put at

:24:57. > :25:00.risk or lost. I will look very carefully at what my right

:25:01. > :25:03.honourable friend has said in relation to those who have supported

:25:04. > :25:08.our British Armed Forces in Afghanistan. The manner in which

:25:09. > :25:16.they are analysed and treated within our asylum system, I know this is an

:25:17. > :25:22.issue many members have raised and I can assure him it is something I'm

:25:23. > :25:25.giving close attention to. Would the Minister agree with me that EU

:25:26. > :25:30.reform in this area should take into account a member state it was effort

:25:31. > :25:35.to resettle refugees from third countries outside the EU and fund

:25:36. > :25:38.those countries? With the UK having delivered 1,000,000,008 to stop

:25:39. > :25:46.powerless journeys at sea, would be right for the EU to endorse our

:25:47. > :25:50.approach to reduce migration? My right honourable friend is right in

:25:51. > :25:53.the steps were taken in the scheme. Our focus remains on providing those

:25:54. > :25:59.safe Routes to the most vulnerable in the region, the UK has made an

:26:00. > :26:03.important contribution through its efforts and that, I think, plays a

:26:04. > :26:06.part in the overall work across the EU in providing that stability and

:26:07. > :26:13.preventing people from making those journeys. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The

:26:14. > :26:15.Minister will know that there's a huge amount of concern in this

:26:16. > :26:19.country, especially mothers unaccompanied children in the camps

:26:20. > :26:24.in Calais and it's welcome to hear them today agreeing that given what

:26:25. > :26:29.he's saying, the problems we've seen, through the current Dublin

:26:30. > :26:32.arrangements, to give us some numbers, how many young people is

:26:33. > :26:38.the actually think the UK will now be able to offer sanctuary as a

:26:39. > :26:41.result of the decision made today? The Prime Minister said earlier on

:26:42. > :26:47.that we will be discussing with local authorities, also discussions

:26:48. > :26:54.with the UN HCR save the children and others. It's right we look at it

:26:55. > :26:59.in that way to assess the issues carefully and therefore come to the

:27:00. > :27:01.right conclusion. Does my right honourable friend agree that with

:27:02. > :27:06.respect to this proposal, the UK has a double protection of being outside

:27:07. > :27:11.the automatic opt in but also being outside Schengen so when asylum

:27:12. > :27:15.seekers choose not to claim asylum at the first port of call, they

:27:16. > :27:21.can't travel the no border zone into the UK? I think we have the best of

:27:22. > :27:24.both worlds being outside the borders areas of Schengen, the

:27:25. > :27:29.protection against us, the ability for us to uphold our own border and

:27:30. > :27:32.do the necessary checks as one of having those legal rights through

:27:33. > :27:37.the optimums and the enhanced mechanisms that the Prime Minister

:27:38. > :27:44.achieved through his new negotiations that will add to those

:27:45. > :27:49.negotiations. I think it would be help fall if you said you would

:27:50. > :27:53.accept the amendments but many of these opt outs are designed to

:27:54. > :28:00.control Britain's borders so he will be aware of good journalism in the

:28:01. > :28:05.Telegraph which says the semaphore system went down for a few days last

:28:06. > :28:10.summer and yesterday his Permanent Secretary would not say, admitted

:28:11. > :28:19.this happened many times, would not say when and for how long. Don't we

:28:20. > :28:23.deserve to know this information and will you publish it? We provide

:28:24. > :28:29.clear protection to the UK border, multilayered approach we take and

:28:30. > :28:34.ink it includes the primary control points which we ensure have 100%

:28:35. > :28:39.checks, something the last Labour Government did not do. It is that

:28:40. > :28:47.focus on our board and security this Government will continue to

:28:48. > :28:50.maintain. -- border. My right honourable friend will know from the

:28:51. > :28:55.conference at which both he and I spoke last week on the migrant

:28:56. > :28:59.crisis of the anger and despair of the Hungarian Government at what is

:29:00. > :29:06.now being proposed by the European Union. Can explain to me what our

:29:07. > :29:08.Government is doing to criticise all enforced against Germany their

:29:09. > :29:19.unilateral rejection of the current regulations? As I have indicated to

:29:20. > :29:23.the House, the Government has the opposite out in relation to certain

:29:24. > :29:30.measures and so there are aspects in relation to Schengen we are not

:29:31. > :29:32.party to. We are not part of the Schengen area. It's a matter for

:29:33. > :29:37.those bound by those regulations to enforce the commission the

:29:38. > :29:42.compliance and therefore it's a matter for them and not the UK. I

:29:43. > :29:47.hope the Minister will find a way to provide more support to

:29:48. > :29:51.unaccompanied children. Compassion demands it. Cody outline how the UK

:29:52. > :29:56.front line support that is going to be provided to Greece and Italy will

:29:57. > :30:02.help ensure a unaccompanied children already in the European Union don't

:30:03. > :30:07.go missing? I think he makes an important point of the issue of

:30:08. > :30:10.things like trafficking, exploitation, it is why Kevin

:30:11. > :30:15.Highlands, the anti-slavery commissioner, will travel to Greece

:30:16. > :30:19.and Italy shortly. Therefore, the experts we are sending out will

:30:20. > :30:23.include those with knowledge and understanding of these issues in

:30:24. > :30:31.relation to children to seek to provide greater assurance over the

:30:32. > :30:35.very matters he has identified. The Government has recently demonstrated

:30:36. > :30:38.an axiom of our EU membership is our common European citizenship which

:30:39. > :30:42.implies the common treatment are people right across the EU. Will he

:30:43. > :30:47.not concede that sooner or later if the public vote to remain in the EU,

:30:48. > :30:51.he will not long be able to resist in the Council of ministers a

:30:52. > :30:54.pressure to concede our opt out and join whatever the arrangements are

:30:55. > :30:58.in a process of bargaining away in order to achieve whatever the

:30:59. > :31:06.Government's objectives happened to be? No, I don't, Mr Speaker. I think

:31:07. > :31:09.the UK has very clearly got protections, indeed the way we opted

:31:10. > :31:15.out of a number of pre-existing measures. It shows the clear

:31:16. > :31:18.approach of this Government in upholding what is in the best

:31:19. > :31:21.interests of the UK and I think I have been very explicit this

:31:22. > :31:28.afternoon in highlighting that being part of relocation mechanism, it's

:31:29. > :31:34.not in the interests of the UK. Thank you, Mr Speaker.. Given the

:31:35. > :31:39.Minister has said the asylum regime may well change after the EU

:31:40. > :31:42.referendum, will he concede that there is no status quo on the ballot

:31:43. > :31:47.paper in the EU referendum just as those who voted a stay in the common

:31:48. > :31:51.market in 1975 did not get the status quo? Given that the parties

:31:52. > :31:57.opposite seemed to be working on the basis that other EU countries are

:31:58. > :32:01.incapable of providing decent and humane refuge to asylum seekers,

:32:02. > :32:08.does he agree we should be in part of a political year who treats

:32:09. > :32:13.asylum seekers properly? I think in terms of the status quo, I would say

:32:14. > :32:17.to my right honourable friend the Commissioner has been very explicit

:32:18. > :32:21.about the Dublin regulations to say we can continue to uphold and

:32:22. > :32:27.operate the existing arrangements if we do not decide to opt into the new

:32:28. > :32:30.measures that have been published today and I think that is quite

:32:31. > :32:34.important in terms of at that assurance and clearly, we will work

:32:35. > :32:38.with other EU partners to support them to ensure that those who are

:32:39. > :32:42.claiming asylum in their shores are able to do so effectively, which is

:32:43. > :32:50.why our expert support is precisely in tune with that. Part of the time

:32:51. > :32:53.announced today means it proposal European countries who refuse to

:32:54. > :32:57.give shelter to refugees could be forced to pay into the cough is of

:32:58. > :33:02.countries that do take them. Whilst we have a temporary opt out on this

:33:03. > :33:06.at present point in time, could the Minister state that this is

:33:07. > :33:09.absolutely guaranteed opt out that we will not consider reneging on and

:33:10. > :33:15.equally, would you publish the legal advice given the legal basis for

:33:16. > :33:20.this proposal? I say to my honourable friend others is not some

:33:21. > :33:24.temporary opt out I'm referring to. It is the basic principles of the

:33:25. > :33:29.treaty in relation to our ability to opt into measures in respect of

:33:30. > :33:32.Justice and home affairs matters. That is the issue I know that he

:33:33. > :33:35.will understand and recognise and that is the basis upon which I have

:33:36. > :33:40.made the point before the House this afternoon.

:33:41. > :33:51.Mr Peter Bone. Mr Speaker knows the problem of human trafficking. One of

:33:52. > :33:57.the problems with continental Europe is the open borders. Whatever the

:33:58. > :34:01.other advantages are, it is a human trafficker's tartare. These new

:34:02. > :34:05.measures will add to that. What we actually want is more checking to

:34:06. > :34:08.stop this evil crime of trafficking. I pay tribute to the work of my

:34:09. > :34:13.honourable friend, who has done so much in relation to highlighting

:34:14. > :34:18.this issue and has assisted in the reforms that have taken place. We

:34:19. > :34:23.need to step up our response to organised crime. That is why we will

:34:24. > :34:26.continue to work with European partners to highlight these issues

:34:27. > :34:30.and see that children are protected and do not fall into the hands of

:34:31. > :34:34.the traffickers, which is why the work on the front line and the

:34:35. > :34:38.further inputs we have from Kevin Highlands will assist us not just as

:34:39. > :34:45.the UK, but also in supporting other EU states as well. Order. I have to

:34:46. > :34:51.notify the House in accordance with the royal assent act of 1967 that

:34:52. > :35:01.Her Majesty has signified her royal assent to the following acts.

:35:02. > :35:07.Enterprise act 2016. Northern Ireland Stormont agreement and

:35:08. > :35:16.implementation plan act 2016. Bank of England and financial services

:35:17. > :35:24.act 2016. Trade union act 2016. Transport for London act 2016.

:35:25. > :35:32.Order. We come now to the ten minute rule motion. I beg to move that

:35:33. > :35:36.leave be given to a bill to make provision about the disclosure,

:35:37. > :35:39.consideration and approval of proposals for onshore electricity

:35:40. > :35:44.power stations for 50 megawatts or less to require the application of

:35:45. > :35:48.engineering construction industry terms of conditions and certain

:35:49. > :35:51.circumstances and to require sector specific collective national

:35:52. > :35:55.workforce agreements in other circumstances and for connected

:35:56. > :35:59.purposes. Any solid biomass or combined heat and power plant

:36:00. > :36:03.producing 50 megawatts or below, indeed, any power project breaching

:36:04. > :36:07.50 megawatts or below, does not come below the terms of national planning

:36:08. > :36:11.and consent. Ostensibly, this sounds fine as it supposedly gives more

:36:12. > :36:13.control to local people about developments in their locality.

:36:14. > :36:18.Projects with a generating capacity of 50 megawatts or less are

:36:19. > :36:22.considered part of the town and country planning act of 1990 and can

:36:23. > :36:26.be dealt therefore with by local authorities. This is where your

:36:27. > :36:30.problems begin if you are part of the construction industry. Civil

:36:31. > :36:34.engineering demands loyalty and hard graft, where workers often work long

:36:35. > :36:38.hours under arduous and sometimes dangerous conditions to produce the

:36:39. > :36:42.end product. But all those great virtues can for nothing when the

:36:43. > :36:46.dice are loaded against you. From Teesside to South Yorkshire,

:36:47. > :36:49.Scotland to Wales, a recent epidemic of deliberate subterfuge has been

:36:50. > :36:53.used to evade industry standards for terms and conditions of construction

:36:54. > :37:01.workers in the power generation sector. Luckily, I am fellow

:37:02. > :37:05.Teesside MPs have been trying to unravel a complex knot of potential

:37:06. > :37:08.expectation and undercutting. We have been working alongside the GMB

:37:09. > :37:13.and Unite union of both regional and national level. The sleight of hand

:37:14. > :37:17.employed and the deliberate use of opaque contractual arrangements via

:37:18. > :37:19.umbrella companies which have seen workers pay their own national

:37:20. > :37:23.insurance twice is universally known. But this together with the

:37:24. > :37:27.potential undercutting and expectation of migrant workers and

:37:28. > :37:29.this only frustrates an area and its people which has seen massive

:37:30. > :37:38.provision in light of closures at exercise steel -- SSI steel to

:37:39. > :37:41.mention one of the sites undergoing closure. This frustration has

:37:42. > :37:49.culminated in a year-long escalation of unrest in the construction

:37:50. > :37:53.industry, with mass protests at one site over a waste product being

:37:54. > :38:03.built in to side with a predominantly non-UK labour force.

:38:04. > :38:08.Any one constructing a power blood must be aware that if it is under 50

:38:09. > :38:10.megawatts, it will have achieved any content from a local authority, and

:38:11. > :38:15.that consent will almost certainly not carry the necessary requirements

:38:16. > :38:21.for workers on the construction project, which would also instil a

:38:22. > :38:28.level playing field. An assumption up until now has been that those

:38:29. > :38:32.terms would carry over. Sadly, that has not been the case. Due to

:38:33. > :38:35.unscrupulous practices by certain construction campaigns, the lack of

:38:36. > :38:39.a voice in this growing market has led many who have been shut out of

:38:40. > :38:43.employment to take on board tactics which are borne out of pure

:38:44. > :38:46.frustration, which can then develop into demonstrator languor.

:38:47. > :38:50.Construction workers in large numbers on the warden noted protests

:38:51. > :38:52.outside the new biomass power station in Rotherham, South

:38:53. > :38:58.Yorkshire, Port Talbot and Dunbar on but the 1st of March and 7th of

:38:59. > :39:04.April in 2015 were in support of GMB, unite members who blockaded

:39:05. > :39:20.work on these sites on those days. The rate should be higher, but the

:39:21. > :39:24.migrant workforce has been paid just nine to 13 euros an hour,

:39:25. > :39:28.approximately ?7 to ?10. With above average levels of unemployment at

:39:29. > :39:31.the current time in the industry, it is no wonder those workers are angry

:39:32. > :39:34.with the expectation of migrant labour at the expense of local

:39:35. > :39:42.implement. How can the developers and employers get away with this?

:39:43. > :39:45.Take this example in Rotherham. The local council gave planning consent

:39:46. > :39:51.in 2011, but sites producing less than 50 megawatts have no need to

:39:52. > :39:54.adhere to regulations. The partnerships who bought the site

:39:55. > :40:08.then sold to son at a big profit to a Danish company. They then

:40:09. > :40:17.contacted Babcock and Wilcox, known as BWV. Subsequently, BWV

:40:18. > :40:25.subcontracted the construction of the boiler to a Croatian firm, who

:40:26. > :40:30.tendered the lowest bid on Croatian economic wage levels. The correction

:40:31. > :40:35.firm has very bad form. It is the same company that GMB Unite court

:40:36. > :40:40.underpaying its largely migrant workforce last year on a power

:40:41. > :40:47.station in Yorkshire. Because that job came under the independent audit

:40:48. > :40:53.facility. The unions were able to force the company to repay every

:40:54. > :40:57.euro it owed. However, they later found out that when they got back to

:40:58. > :41:00.Croatia, the workers and that their wages were retaken under duress.

:41:01. > :41:04.Because the Rotherham biomass project and similar waste energy

:41:05. > :41:07.project is not covered by collective agreements and because they are

:41:08. > :41:12.under 50 megawatts, the employer can then pay below the rate and legally

:41:13. > :41:14.get away with it. Well-meaning legislation from the European Union

:41:15. > :41:21.to combat this malpractice doesn't go far enough. Italy currently gives

:41:22. > :41:25.workers posted to work temporarily in another country the minimal

:41:26. > :41:32.protection of the country's standards, namely the minimum wage.

:41:33. > :41:37.This is not that you's fault, it is ours, by not protecting all workers'

:41:38. > :41:41.blanket collective bargaining for blanket collective

:41:42. > :41:48.all workers, firms will use caveats to exploit. A support of

:41:49. > :41:52.collective-bargaining is the only solution to prevent exploitation of

:41:53. > :41:56.immigrant labour and a real means by which we as a nation can prevent the

:41:57. > :42:01.deliberate social discord rated amongst our own communities by the

:42:02. > :42:03.means of effectively excluding workers from our own towns from

:42:04. > :42:08.seeking and achieving meaningful employment. The means by which we

:42:09. > :42:10.can achieve this and help local authorities under severe financial

:42:11. > :42:15.and logistical pressure is to ensure that at the start of the planning

:42:16. > :42:22.process, whether a power generation that is above or below 50 megawatts,

:42:23. > :42:26.a collective agreement and national terms are adhered to by any complete

:42:27. > :42:32.constructing on British soil. This must be clearly written within the

:42:33. > :42:36.contract. Order. The question is that the honourable member have

:42:37. > :42:40.leave to bring in the bill. As many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To

:42:41. > :42:48.the contrary, "no". The ayes have it, the ayes have it. Who will

:42:49. > :42:54.prepare and bring in the Bill? Kevin Barron, Sarah Champion, John Healey,

:42:55. > :43:08.Andy McDonald, Anna Turney, Ian Wright, and myself, sir.

:43:09. > :43:36.Town and country planning, electricity generating consent bill.

:43:37. > :43:44.Second reading, what day? Friday the 13th of May. Friday the 13th of May.

:43:45. > :43:46.Thank you. Order. We can now to... Oh, not before the point of order

:43:47. > :43:54.from the honourable gentleman. Point of order. On a point of order, I

:43:55. > :43:56.would like to ask you whether you have received immediate notification

:43:57. > :44:04.of a statement by the Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change

:44:05. > :44:12.in respect of the admission by the chairman of dossiers relating to

:44:13. > :44:15.parts of reactors meeting required standards had been falsified and the

:44:16. > :44:21.extent to which those falsifications were present in the generic design

:44:22. > :44:31.assessment process for the operation of reactors in the UK. No. I have

:44:32. > :44:36.received no indication on this extremely important matter that the

:44:37. > :44:40.Secretary of State for Energy and Climate Change has any plans to make

:44:41. > :44:46.a statement to the House. The honourable gentleman maybe

:44:47. > :44:51.dissatisfied by that news, and if he is, he has manifold ways in which to

:44:52. > :44:55.pursue the matter through the use of the order paper and the facility of

:44:56. > :44:59.this chamber. And knowing his experience and dexterity, I feel

:45:00. > :45:08.sure that he will use all the instrument is available to him. If

:45:09. > :45:14.there no further points of order, we come now to the opposition day

:45:15. > :45:19.motion in the name of the Leader of the Opposition. To move that motion,

:45:20. > :45:27.I call the shadow Secretary of State for Health, Heidi Alexander. Thank

:45:28. > :45:30.you, Mr Speaker. I beg to move view motion on the order paper in my name

:45:31. > :45:36.and the names of my honourable and right honourable friend. Before I

:45:37. > :45:39.begin, can I inform the House that I have been told that the

:45:40. > :45:42.Parliamentary Undersecretary of State, the member for Ipswich, will

:45:43. > :45:47.be opening this debate for the government? Given that the Health

:45:48. > :45:51.Secretary is sat next to him, can I ask why we will not be hearing from

:45:52. > :45:57.his boss today? If you would like to explain a genuine reason, I would be

:45:58. > :46:00.happy to take on intervention. If not, I take it that the Health

:46:01. > :46:08.Secretary simply doesn't want to come to this house to defend his

:46:09. > :46:10.policy. Order. There is a certain amount of chirruping from the

:46:11. > :46:14.Treasury bench and elsewhere on this matter. I simply make two points.

:46:15. > :46:20.First, it is for the government to decide which minister to field. But

:46:21. > :46:24.I do very gently say to the Secretary of State, and indeed to

:46:25. > :46:28.the deputy leader of the, that to sit on the bench while these matters

:46:29. > :46:34.are being debated is one thing, particularly in the case of the

:46:35. > :46:37.Secretary of State, but to sit there fiddling ostentatiously with an

:46:38. > :46:42.electronic device devised the established convention of the House

:46:43. > :46:50.that such devices should be used and I remind members, without impairing

:46:51. > :46:54.Parliamentary decorum. They are imperilling Parliamentary decorum,

:46:55. > :46:57.and in simple terms, are being discourteous to the shadow Secretary

:46:58. > :47:01.of State and to the House. It is a point so blindingly obvious that

:47:02. > :47:06.only an extraordinarily clever and sophisticated person could fail to

:47:07. > :47:09.grasp it. Heidi Alexander. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Of course, this is

:47:10. > :47:14.in the first time the Health Secretary has chosen not to respond

:47:15. > :47:18.to debates that I have brought or questions I have put. Order. I say

:47:19. > :47:22.to the deputy Leader of the House, put the device away, and if you

:47:23. > :47:29.don't want to put it away, get out of the House. It is rude. Order! I

:47:30. > :47:35.am not inviting a response from the honourable lady. I am simply telling

:47:36. > :47:40.her it is discourteous to behave like that, a point that most people

:47:41. > :47:47.would readily understand. The shadow Secretary of State, Heidi Alexander.

:47:48. > :47:53.In the last few months ministers and I have had a number of exchanges

:47:54. > :47:58.across this dispatch box about the unnecessary and dangerous fight this

:47:59. > :48:03.Government is picking the junior doctors. You might think that,

:48:04. > :48:07.having totally alienate it one section of the NHS workforce,

:48:08. > :48:13.ministers would think twice about doing it again. That he would be

:48:14. > :48:17.wrong. Not content with junior doctors, the Government are now

:48:18. > :48:23.targeting the next generation of nurses, midwives and other allied

:48:24. > :48:28.health professionals, podiatrist, physiotherapists, radiographers and

:48:29. > :48:33.many, many more. Instead of investing in these health care

:48:34. > :48:36.students, instead of valuing them, and protecting their bursaries,

:48:37. > :48:43.which help with living costs, and cover all of their tuition fees,

:48:44. > :48:50.this Government is asking them to pay for the privilege of training to

:48:51. > :48:53.work in the NHS. Scrap the bursary, ask tomorrow's NHS workforce to rack

:48:54. > :49:02.up a enormous debts, and claim this is the answer to current staff

:49:03. > :49:06.shortages. I will give way. She is making a spending commitments so why

:49:07. > :49:09.does she stand on a manifesto that oppose Government 10p in the pound

:49:10. > :49:16.investment in the NHS a few months ago? Thank you, Mr Speaker. . The

:49:17. > :49:23.Labour Party has always been clear it would have given the NHS every

:49:24. > :49:26.penny it needs. You would think the approach that I have outlined when

:49:27. > :49:31.it comes to health care students most people would think that the

:49:32. > :49:41.Government have taken leave of their senses. And they would be right. A

:49:42. > :49:44.few weeks ago... I'm very grateful. My constituents are baffled by the

:49:45. > :49:48.approach the Government are taking at a time when local hospitals are

:49:49. > :49:53.recruiting nurses from Spain and other European countries. To

:49:54. > :49:59.actually stop bursaries to get more people into training seems

:50:00. > :50:05.absolutely ridiculous. I absolutely agree with my honourable friend.

:50:06. > :50:08.Indeed, the bursary acts as an incentive to get those students into

:50:09. > :50:13.training and to get them into the NHS. A few weeks ago, the Government

:50:14. > :50:20.launched their consultation on the technical detail of these changes.

:50:21. > :50:22.Not the principal, just the detail. In his foreword, the Parliamentary

:50:23. > :50:27.Under-Secretary of State claimed that these proposals are good for

:50:28. > :50:35.students, good for patience and good for the NHS. The opposite is the

:50:36. > :50:40.case. But before I set out why these plans are so bad, it's important we

:50:41. > :50:45.remind ourselves why our country has a nursing shortage in the first

:50:46. > :50:49.place. Shortly after the 2010 election, the Coalition Government

:50:50. > :50:56.cut the number of nurse training commissions in an attempt to make

:50:57. > :51:01.some short-term savings. Those cuts soared nurse training places reduced

:51:02. > :51:08.from more than 20,000 a year to just 17,000, the lowest level since the

:51:09. > :51:13.1990s. As a result, we trained 8000 fewer nurses in the last Parliament

:51:14. > :51:19.and we would have done had we maintained commissions at 2010

:51:20. > :51:24.levels. At the time, experts such as the Royal College of Nursing, warned

:51:25. > :51:28.that the cuts would cause, and I quote, "Serious issues in

:51:29. > :51:32.undersupply for years to come." They were right. But they were ignored by

:51:33. > :51:40.ministers who were too focused on the short-term and too distracted by

:51:41. > :51:48.their plans to launch a massive reorganisation of the NHS. Our

:51:49. > :51:51.health service is now suffering the consequences of those decisions. New

:51:52. > :51:55.analysis by the House of Commons library which has been released

:51:56. > :52:09.today has shown the number of nurses per head of the population fell from

:52:10. > :52:14.6786 per million people in 2009 two 6645 in 2015. Unison survey

:52:15. > :52:17.published just last week found that two thirds of respondents felt

:52:18. > :52:23.staffing levels and got worse in the last year, with a further 63% saying

:52:24. > :52:27.they felt they were inadequate numbers of staff on the wards to

:52:28. > :52:33.ensure safe, dignified and compassionate care. Because of these

:52:34. > :52:41.shortages, hospitals are forced to recruit from overseas or spend vast

:52:42. > :52:49.amounts on expensive agency staff. I will gave way. In 2014-15, three 3p

:52:50. > :52:53.was spent on agency staff in the NHS. Does this short-sighted move

:52:54. > :53:04.mean Billy good trusts may be more reliant on agency staff as a result

:53:05. > :53:07.of moving the bursary? She's to point out the problems of staff

:53:08. > :53:12.shortages leading to more agency staff needing to be used are

:53:13. > :53:16.creating an enormous black hole in hospital finances and my fear is

:53:17. > :53:23.that these proposals would put off the next generation of nurses. It

:53:24. > :53:28.now appears that the Government is making the same mistakes all over

:53:29. > :53:32.again. A report sneaked out on the day this House rose for Easter

:53:33. > :53:38.recess revealing the Government has only commissioned one tenth of the

:53:39. > :53:42.extra nurse training places experts said we needed this year. The report

:53:43. > :53:48.from the migration advisory committee says this. " We were told

:53:49. > :53:52.that health education England has acknowledged that on the basis of

:53:53. > :54:00.workforce modelling alone, they would have liked to commission an

:54:01. > :54:05.additional 3000 places in 2016-17. Funding constraints meant they could

:54:06. > :54:10.only commission an additional 331 places, one tenth of what was

:54:11. > :54:17.actually needed." The report... I will gave way. Would she not agree

:54:18. > :54:21.with me that by changing the way we run the NHS especially on bursaries

:54:22. > :54:24.and opening it up to more of a competition, we would get more

:54:25. > :54:30.nurses coming into the NHS plugging the gap she's describing? I don't

:54:31. > :54:35.agree with the honourable gentleman. Further in my speech I will explain

:54:36. > :54:38.in some detail as to why. I would like to go back to the migration

:54:39. > :54:42.advisory committee report because it doesn't make happy reading for

:54:43. > :54:47.ministers, Madam Deputy Speaker. It goes on to say," it seemed

:54:48. > :54:53.self-evident to as the reduction in the number of commissioned training

:54:54. > :54:56.places between 2010-13 across England, Scotland, Wales and

:54:57. > :55:02.Northern Ireland was a significant contributing factor towards the

:55:03. > :55:07.current national shortage of nurses and, finally, the crucial sentence

:55:08. > :55:11.which sums up why we are experiencing across the board

:55:12. > :55:18.nursing shortages, almost all of these issues relate to and are

:55:19. > :55:25.caused by a desire to save money, but this is a choice, not a fixed

:55:26. > :55:31.fact. The Government could invest and resource if it wanted to. Those

:55:32. > :55:36.are not my words. They are the words of the migration advisory committee.

:55:37. > :55:42.Hospitals are short of nurses, mental health services are short of

:55:43. > :55:48.nurses, care homes, hospices, primary care is, too. We therefore

:55:49. > :55:53.have a big problem. No one in this House disputes that but no one

:55:54. > :55:58.should be under any illusion as to the cause. The question is, when

:55:59. > :56:03.faced with this problem, what is the right thing to do? How best can

:56:04. > :56:08.Government work with experts to ensure we are training enough staff

:56:09. > :56:15.and supporting those staff so they stay motivated and stayed working in

:56:16. > :56:19.the NHS? I will gave way. Of course we all agree there is a significant

:56:20. > :56:23.shortage of nurses and his absolutely right to ask the question

:56:24. > :56:26.what should be done. Issue therefore giving support to the government's

:56:27. > :56:30.concept of associate nursing which I believe will make a huge difference

:56:31. > :56:34.in places like my constituency, Gloucester, where we need new nurses

:56:35. > :56:42.to increase the numbers of home trained nursing staff? I'm grateful

:56:43. > :56:46.to the honourable gentleman for his question and think the key question

:56:47. > :56:50.that we need to have answered with regard to nursing associates is

:56:51. > :56:55.whether it's the intention of a Government that they replace

:56:56. > :57:01.registered nurses, because if that's the case, I fear these proposals

:57:02. > :57:05.would be bad for patient care. Madam Deputy Speaker, you might think a

:57:06. > :57:09.sensible approach to try to resolve this problem would be to sit down

:57:10. > :57:14.with the Royal College of Nursing and other trade unions,

:57:15. > :57:20.universities, health providers, to try and work out a way forward but

:57:21. > :57:24.no, this Government seems incapable of that. Instead, in just two lines

:57:25. > :57:28.in the Chancellor's Autumn Statement, they announced they would

:57:29. > :57:33.scrap NHS bursaries and asking student nurses to pay tuition fees.

:57:34. > :57:38.The Minister will argue that this will allow universities to train

:57:39. > :57:44.more students. But his problem is this. I will gave way. Doesn't you

:57:45. > :57:47.think the Government doesn't do the Royal College when it says these

:57:48. > :57:52.proposals they are putting forward our high risk, potentially deterring

:57:53. > :57:58.students from entering the nursing profession and risks worsening the

:57:59. > :58:03.current nursing shortage? I entirely agree with my honourable friend. I

:58:04. > :58:08.think the Government's problem is this. They have failed to back up

:58:09. > :58:12.their claims with any evidence. They are now faced with a breadth of

:58:13. > :58:17.opposition to this proposal, not just from members of this House, but

:58:18. > :58:22.from the Royal College of Nursing, the Royal College of midwives and

:58:23. > :58:26.Unison, organisations such as million-plus, the Association for

:58:27. > :58:30.modern universities, are also questioning the assumptions on which

:58:31. > :58:35.the Government is basing this policy. I will gave way. Does she

:58:36. > :58:41.agree with my constituent Zoe who was at trained nurse who was

:58:42. > :58:46.concerned for mature students because she feels many of them, 50%

:58:47. > :58:49.of the time is spent on unpaid clinical placements in hospital and

:58:50. > :58:52.the community and therefore they don't have the opportunity to do

:58:53. > :58:59.part-time work to support themselves as others do. Will not affect them

:59:00. > :59:02.disproportionately? I do agree with my right honourable friend and I

:59:03. > :59:08.will make some remarks on precisely that point later in my contribution.

:59:09. > :59:10.Madam Deputy Speaker, the purpose of the opposition in calling this

:59:11. > :59:15.debate today is that we hope that this House can rally round what many

:59:16. > :59:19.people would think is a straightforward and reasonable

:59:20. > :59:24.proposal about the Government drops these plans and instead consults on

:59:25. > :59:31.how to properly fund and support the future health care workforce. Let me

:59:32. > :59:35.set out why these plans are bad for students, bad for patients, and bad

:59:36. > :59:39.for the NHS. The Government claim these plans will leave health care

:59:40. > :59:45.students 25% better off but what they won't say is that, according to

:59:46. > :59:49.their own consultation, in order to be 25% better off, a student will

:59:50. > :59:54.have to take out a maximum maintenance and tuition fee loan for

:59:55. > :00:02.three years and will graduate with debts are between 48000 and ?59,000.

:00:03. > :00:09.I will gave way. Many people in the House today will know I had a son at

:00:10. > :00:14.23 weeks gestation which spent weeks in intensive care with a neonatal

:00:15. > :00:18.nurse called Nicola who sadly died not long after my son come out of

:00:19. > :00:26.hospital. I'm frightened many people like Nicola will not go into that

:00:27. > :00:30.profession because of his astronomical amounts of debt they

:00:31. > :00:35.will take on. Really, that's a progressive step in the Government

:00:36. > :00:39.should think again about that. I completely agree with my honourable

:00:40. > :00:43.friend. It seems the Government argument is students will be better

:00:44. > :00:47.off because they can borrow more. The simple truth is that loan

:00:48. > :00:52.repayments will head the take-home pay of nurses. There's no two ways

:00:53. > :01:00.about it. The current starting salary from nurse is ?21,692. Just

:01:01. > :01:04.above the student loan repayment threshold, which of course, has been

:01:05. > :01:09.frozen. This means nurses will start paying off loans as soon is they

:01:10. > :01:13.graduate and, according to Unison, based on current salary levels, and

:01:14. > :01:18.this will be faced with an average pay debt of over ?900 a year to meet

:01:19. > :01:24.their debt repayments. How can that possibly be justified? And worse, as

:01:25. > :01:28.the average age of the student nurses 28, the current 30 year

:01:29. > :01:34.payment period means many nurses will be paying off loans to within

:01:35. > :01:39.years of retirement. On this side of the House, we say it is wrong to

:01:40. > :01:45.burden the next generation of NHS staff with a lifetime of debt and

:01:46. > :01:52.wrong to expect tomorrow's nurses to pay the price for this government's

:01:53. > :01:54.mismanagement of the NHS. Does the Minister not understand that student

:01:55. > :02:01.nurses, midwives and other allied health professionals are different

:02:02. > :02:05.from other students? Can he not see it as dangerous to assume that just

:02:06. > :02:09.because application rates remained stable after the troubling of

:02:10. > :02:13.tuition fees in the last Parliament, the same will happen with his

:02:14. > :02:18.proposals? I say to him, assuming health care students will respond in

:02:19. > :02:25.the same way as other students to tuition fees hike, is one hell of an

:02:26. > :02:29.assumption and one hell of a risk. Courses for nursing, midwifery and

:02:30. > :02:37.other allied health professionals are substantially different to other

:02:38. > :02:41.degrees. Not only are there fewer holidays, longer days, longer term

:02:42. > :02:46.times, but students are also required to spend half their time in

:02:47. > :02:51.clinical practice, 2300 hours in the case of a student nurse including

:02:52. > :02:55.nights and weekend shifts as a normal part of their studies. I've

:02:56. > :03:00.already given away to the honourable gentleman and I want to make some

:03:01. > :03:04.progress. Madam Deputy Speaker, these changes will effectively

:03:05. > :03:10.charge students for working in the NHS. And of course, longer term

:03:11. > :03:14.placements also make it harder for these students together part-time

:03:15. > :03:18.job to supplement their income as many other students do. It's not

:03:19. > :03:23.just the course that makes health care students unique. They are much

:03:24. > :03:28.more likely to be women, much more likely to be mature students, much

:03:29. > :03:33.more likely to have children and more likely to be from the M E

:03:34. > :03:39.backgrounds. Many nursing students have already completed 1 degrees and

:03:40. > :03:46.turned to nursing in their late 20s or early 30s -- BME. The average age

:03:47. > :03:51.of a student nurses 28. When I think of my own friends, who are nurses

:03:52. > :03:55.and midwives, three out of four of them took the decision to retrain

:03:56. > :03:59.having done a different first degree. Now I know the Minister

:04:00. > :04:05.probably moves in different circles to me, but I can tell him that if he

:04:06. > :04:10.wants a dose of reality, I'm sure my friends would be more than happy to

:04:11. > :04:16.oblige. I understand that the Minister may not have experienced

:04:17. > :04:21.the same conversations as I did within my working-class family about

:04:22. > :04:29.the pluses and minuses of racking up debts to get a degree. But I can

:04:30. > :04:32.tell him that, for many nurses, and his proposals, that will be an all

:04:33. > :04:41.too real For the one in five health care

:04:42. > :04:46.students with children, does he not realise that the fear of debt is

:04:47. > :04:50.greater for them than for a carefree, privately educated history

:04:51. > :04:55.student bound for Cambridge? Madame Deputy Speaker, my concern about

:04:56. > :05:01.these proposals is that we ultimately end up with those who are

:05:02. > :05:10.best placed to pay becoming nurses and midwives, and not those best

:05:11. > :05:15.placed to care. That brings me to why these proposals are bad for

:05:16. > :05:18.patients. I thank the honourable member for giving way. We are all

:05:19. > :05:23.agreed on the need for more nurses, the question is how we fund them.

:05:24. > :05:28.Will she advise how much money she would take away from front line NHS

:05:29. > :05:36.care in order to fund the expansion of nurse places that we need in this

:05:37. > :05:41.country? At the last election, we set out clearly costed plans for how

:05:42. > :05:48.we would recruit additional nurses, doctors and care staff to the NHS.

:05:49. > :05:53.The NHS should have a workforce that reflects the population it serves,

:05:54. > :05:58.just as this place should. The mental health sector in particular

:05:59. > :06:04.relies on mature students, and the additional life experience they've

:06:05. > :06:08.bring -- and they bring to a demanding environment. A few months

:06:09. > :06:14.ago, I met Marina, a young woman who has not had an easy life, but is now

:06:15. > :06:19.on a mission to become a mental health nurse. When Marina says to me

:06:20. > :06:24.that she thinks some of the people best placed to care for others are

:06:25. > :06:29.those who have experienced hardships themselves, I think she has a point.

:06:30. > :06:34.And when she says she would not have been able to start her training

:06:35. > :06:40.without the bursary, I believe her. Why is the minister so convinced

:06:41. > :06:44.that the NHS can do without people like Marina in the future, and why

:06:45. > :06:53.does he think they should pay to train. Why will he not consider

:06:54. > :06:58.other options for increasing student numbers? The quality of training

:06:59. > :07:00.that student nurses, midwives and other allied health professionals

:07:01. > :07:06.receive will also be dependent on the quality of their clinical

:07:07. > :07:09.placements. Whilst government ministers claim these changes could

:07:10. > :07:15.deliver up to 10,000 extra places over the course of this Parliament,

:07:16. > :07:20.can they set out what capacity hospitals and other providers have

:07:21. > :07:25.to accommodate these extra students, and whether health education England

:07:26. > :07:31.has sufficient funds set aside to fund these placements? Can the

:07:32. > :07:36.minister also be clear as to how they have arrived at this 10,000

:07:37. > :07:39.figure? Is this an assessment of what the system needs? Is it what

:07:40. > :07:44.health education England can afford to fund, or is it simply a big

:07:45. > :07:50.sounding number plucked out of the air at random? An extra 10,000

:07:51. > :07:56.compared to when? What is the baseline year from when to judge his

:07:57. > :08:00.policy by? I have now asked the minister that question three times

:08:01. > :08:05.in Britain parliamentary questions, and each time, I have not got an

:08:06. > :08:11.answer. Does he not understand that if his department can't even ants

:08:12. > :08:15.are a simple question about -- if they can not even answer a simple

:08:16. > :08:19.question about the claims of their policy, it doesn't exactly inspire

:08:20. > :08:23.confidence. There are some any questions the minister needs to

:08:24. > :08:32.answer. It is impossible to do them all justice in one speech. As has

:08:33. > :08:36.been indicated, it is agreed that we need to expand places, but thanks to

:08:37. > :08:40.this government, 10 billion additional pounds has been put into

:08:41. > :08:45.GP services, cancer treatment and hospital care. Which of those

:08:46. > :08:52.services which she cut to fund the alternative bursary scheme she has

:08:53. > :08:56.in mind? I am afraid the honourable gentleman does not seem to realise

:08:57. > :09:02.that that money is plugging a very big black hole in NHS finances at

:09:03. > :09:07.the moment. When the minister stands up, I am sure he will note that many

:09:08. > :09:13.applicants to study nursing and other health care degrees are turned

:09:14. > :09:16.away. But what proportion of those unsuccessful applicants actually

:09:17. > :09:22.meet the entry criteria? How can he be sure that his new system will

:09:23. > :09:25.deliver the required numbers of different types of nurses and other

:09:26. > :09:34.health care professionals in the right geographical areas? Can he

:09:35. > :09:36.also say what guarantees he has given to higher education

:09:37. > :09:40.institutions that the new arrangements will cover the costs of

:09:41. > :09:46.delivering degrees? Can he also say what assessment he has made of the

:09:47. > :09:50.amount of an repaid student debt which will accumulate, given that

:09:51. > :09:54.over a lifetime, some nurses will not earn enough to repay the

:09:55. > :10:04.totality of their loans plus interest? The proposal to scrap NHS

:10:05. > :10:11.bursaries is a massive gamble, at a time when the NHS needs certainty.

:10:12. > :10:15.Put simply, it shifts the cost of training nurses, midwives and other

:10:16. > :10:21.allied health professionals from the state to the individual. If we are

:10:22. > :10:26.all happy to enjoy the benefits of the NHS, why should we not all

:10:27. > :10:34.contribute to the training of those who work in it? I was the first

:10:35. > :10:40.person in my family to go to university. I was someone who had my

:10:41. > :10:45.tuition fees paid in full, and received a full maintenance grant. I

:10:46. > :10:51.am really worried that people like me, people like my friends, will be

:10:52. > :10:55.put off from what could be a fulfilling and important career. We

:10:56. > :10:58.should be doing all we can to inspire today's's schoolchildren to

:10:59. > :11:03.become nurses and health care professionals of the future. Sadly,

:11:04. > :11:09.the government is doing a good job of doing the opposite. If ministers

:11:10. > :11:15.want to continue to import staff from overseas, they are going the

:11:16. > :11:23.right way about it. I say we owe a debt of attitude to those staff, but

:11:24. > :11:28.we want home-grown staff as well. In conclusion, I would like to return

:11:29. > :11:32.to the government's consultation. One of the sections is titled

:11:33. > :11:37."Nursing, midwifery and allied health professionals students

:11:38. > :11:41.deserve the same opportunities as other students". On this side of the

:11:42. > :11:48.House, we say no. They deserve better. They should be treated

:11:49. > :11:54.differently to other students, as they will look after us when we are

:11:55. > :11:58.older, who will care for our relatives when they are sick and who

:11:59. > :12:03.will staff the NHS when this shambolic government has long gone.

:12:04. > :12:10.The government should drop these proposals and think again. I commend

:12:11. > :12:20.this motion to the House. The question is as on the order paper.

:12:21. > :12:24.Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to be answering this

:12:25. > :12:30.motion put by the honourable lady, not least because I think this is

:12:31. > :12:37.potentially one of the most exciting things we will do in the NHS in the

:12:38. > :12:41.next five years to increase opportunity and quality and the

:12:42. > :12:46.presence of nursing staff on warts. And we will do that because of a

:12:47. > :12:50.reform that has helped so many other students across this country in the

:12:51. > :12:58.last five years. The honourable lady came to the House at the same time

:12:59. > :13:02.as I did. We were in that debate in November 2010, on opposite sides of

:13:03. > :13:08.the House, making contributions in a debate where many of us were anxious

:13:09. > :13:14.about the outcome, not least because of the enormous pressures that were

:13:15. > :13:18.on us from our constituents. Members who have been here for many years

:13:19. > :13:22.will know that it was the first time you could hear a riot outside the

:13:23. > :13:28.chamber whilst you were sitting in this place. And they were outside,

:13:29. > :13:32.complaining that we were going to destroy the ability of people to go

:13:33. > :13:38.to university. We were going to make it impossible for people to go who

:13:39. > :13:43.came from disadvantaged backgrounds, and we were going to set back years

:13:44. > :13:46.of progress in closing the inequality gap in this country.

:13:47. > :13:51.There were people who spoke on both sides of the House who feel very

:13:52. > :13:57.passionately about that. We believe it could be sold by different means.

:13:58. > :14:00.But we have had the ability of the last five years to see the effect of

:14:01. > :14:06.the changes and to see, as the honourable lady has posited in her

:14:07. > :14:14.speech, the evidence for the changes that were made. And the evidence is

:14:15. > :14:20.clear. This year, there were 394,380 people accepted onto places in this

:14:21. > :14:26.country. That is 35,000 more people accepted onto university places than

:14:27. > :14:31.in 2010, when we had that debate. If that were one university, it would

:14:32. > :14:43.be the fourth largest university in this country. That was a result of

:14:44. > :14:47.the reforms undertaken in this House in 2010. But the honourable lady

:14:48. > :14:53.says, how was it that that expanded opportunity to those who most need

:14:54. > :14:57.university? I regret the tone she took in this portion of her remarks.

:14:58. > :15:04.I am afraid it was beneath. It is indeed wrong that when I went to

:15:05. > :15:11.university, my fees were in part paid for by nurses on low wages

:15:12. > :15:15.paying tax. That is wrong. We accepted that that was wrong. We

:15:16. > :15:19.also accepted that the system was not helping people who most need

:15:20. > :15:23.university in order to escape their backgrounds to get into university.

:15:24. > :15:29.So the results we should really be looking for what has helped people

:15:30. > :15:38.from disadvantaged backgrounds get into university in the last five

:15:39. > :15:41.years. In the last five years, the numbers of people going to

:15:42. > :15:48.university from disadvantaged backgrounds has increased by 10,150,

:15:49. > :15:56.a massive increase over the last five years. Had someone said that

:15:57. > :16:04.would be possible in 2010, I doubt anyone would have given 5000-1 odds

:16:05. > :16:08.on that happening. But 10,150 people is the size of the university of

:16:09. > :16:11.Leicester. It is the number of people who we have brought into the

:16:12. > :16:17.university sector as a result of the changes we have made. One university

:16:18. > :16:23.more follow people from disadvantaged backgrounds that we

:16:24. > :16:26.have created -- full of people. I know that her motivations in 2010

:16:27. > :16:32.were entirely honest and commendable. I also know that many

:16:33. > :16:36.members of the side of the House felt likewise, but we have to accept

:16:37. > :16:41.when we get things wrong man that is where am afraid the honourable lady,

:16:42. > :16:49.not ourselves, is failing to learn from history. Back in that debate,

:16:50. > :16:53.she said "I fear", in an intervention on one of my honourable

:16:54. > :16:59.friend 's," that the changes proposed will mean huge debt forced

:17:00. > :17:05.onto students and they could now have a greater incentive to go to

:17:06. > :17:08.university than there is for students from more affluent

:17:09. > :17:12.backgrounds". She made exactly the same point she has made in this

:17:13. > :17:16.debate back in 2010. She was wrong then, and I humbly suggest that she

:17:17. > :17:23.is wrong on this occasion. She should listen to the evidence that

:17:24. > :17:26.has been put forward not by me but by so many institutions about the

:17:27. > :17:36.progress that has been made in reducing inequality. For that reason

:17:37. > :17:41.alone, I will come onto the reasons for reducing bursaries later.

:17:42. > :17:48.Does he not accept that health care students have very different

:17:49. > :17:52.characteristics compared to other students and their behaviour will

:17:53. > :17:59.not be the same, necessarily, as those students who were affected by

:18:00. > :18:04.the reforms in the last Parliament? I do accept the differences. Implied

:18:05. > :18:07.in her point she is accepting she was wrong in 2010 and therefore

:18:08. > :18:14.should be more measured about the proposals. It hasn't all been plain

:18:15. > :18:19.sailing since the reforms came in, not least the impact on applications

:18:20. > :18:23.from materials students. Given the proportion of material students who

:18:24. > :18:28.make up the nursing cohort does the Minister not accept there is nothing

:18:29. > :18:32.in the consultation that proposes how to mitigate against that risk to

:18:33. > :18:35.good recruits from mature student backgrounds who currently make up a

:18:36. > :18:42.significant proportion of the nursing workforce? He is wrong on

:18:43. > :18:46.both points. The number of material student applications is higher than

:18:47. > :18:53.in 2010 and there are specific recommendations to deal with mature

:18:54. > :19:01.students. Doesn't this demonstrate the point he is making that you have

:19:02. > :19:04.a choice? You either inspire people to aspire and give them the

:19:05. > :19:13.opportunity to come into the NHS by talking it up or you top it down by

:19:14. > :19:17.being negative and put people off. I believe that is why the opposition

:19:18. > :19:22.was wrong in 2010 and had we followed their advice we would have

:19:23. > :19:27.fewer people from disadvantaged backgrounds going to university. As

:19:28. > :19:33.a result of us taking forward brave proposals in the teeth of

:19:34. > :19:41.opposition, we have done more for the prospects of people from

:19:42. > :19:52.disadvantaged backgrounds since education -- higher education was

:19:53. > :19:56.reformed. The fact that the offer of an alternative is so anaemic makes

:19:57. > :20:11.it clear there is no alternative suggestion the honourable lady can

:20:12. > :20:16.put forward, which is an increase in numbers and people from diverse

:20:17. > :20:27.backgrounds. It implies she accepts that workforce planning over the

:20:28. > :20:30.last 40 years has failed. Perhaps she is not willing to say that is

:20:31. > :20:36.because everything we have to do now to correct workforce numbers, the

:20:37. > :20:38.5000 additional GPs my right honourable friend fought the last

:20:39. > :20:43.election campaign on and will deliver in the next few years, is a

:20:44. > :20:47.result of commissioning decisions being made poorly, not under the

:20:48. > :20:51.Coalition Government or even the latter years of the Labour

:20:52. > :20:57.government but 20 or 30 years ago. It is the failure to predict in

:20:58. > :21:05.advance of the numbers of GPs and professionals that is landing is in

:21:06. > :21:09.these perpetual situations where we are not accepting British students

:21:10. > :21:15.who want to do a training course into university places and so not

:21:16. > :21:23.creating the number of domestic trained nurses we need, and having

:21:24. > :21:27.the response to the inadequacies in care uncovered in the mid-Staffs

:21:28. > :21:31.scandal and the failure of the Labour government to have nurse

:21:32. > :21:36.numbers across the country, importing nurses from abroad and

:21:37. > :21:42.filling most places with agency posts, something we have to correct

:21:43. > :21:46.now. Can I just tell the Minister that one of the main areas of

:21:47. > :21:53.feedback I have had from the Salisbury Hospital foundation trust

:21:54. > :21:58.is that they are frustrated with the reliance on agency nurses so I

:21:59. > :22:03.welcome the Government 's moves in this area because it will open up

:22:04. > :22:08.the supply and reduce the reliance and significant additional cost over

:22:09. > :22:18.the last few years? It is precisely to help that hospital we are making

:22:19. > :22:23.these reforms. He said before there was no alternative to these

:22:24. > :22:30.proposals. Can he tell us which of the Royal colleges the consulted

:22:31. > :22:36.with before that decision? I have spoken at length with the Royal

:22:37. > :22:46.College of Nursing but we do differ on key parts of the plant but I

:22:47. > :22:51.would expect that. -- plan. You will see in their initial response to the

:22:52. > :22:55.consultation that they accept the premise under which we are

:22:56. > :23:01.proceeding. I want to find through the period of consultation those

:23:02. > :23:05.areas where we can agree and improve the proposals we have put before the

:23:06. > :23:09.public and that is why we have been very open about this consultation

:23:10. > :23:13.and offered the full length, 12 weeks. Many people said we would not

:23:14. > :23:21.but we did. Precisely so we can listen to the concerns and exciting

:23:22. > :23:27.challenges across the sectors and improve our proposals to the NHS.

:23:28. > :23:30.There is a suggestion of a whole series of things apart from one

:23:31. > :23:36.thing which is the opposition's proposals to do anything different.

:23:37. > :23:41.What they will not do is offer new money to the NHS. They were offering

:23:42. > :23:46.?4.5 billion less than we did at the last election. It would have to be

:23:47. > :23:51.cut elsewhere in the service, I can only presume. The honourable lady

:23:52. > :23:56.has no credibility in making her argument unless she comes to the

:23:57. > :24:02.House saying she will offer 10,000 additional training places and pay

:24:03. > :24:06.for them out of taxpayers' money rather than finding an alternative

:24:07. > :24:11.funding mechanism. I will say this. I am not going to lead the House by

:24:12. > :24:17.a series of suggestions about what might or might not be better and

:24:18. > :24:26.merely setting to criticised the proposals rather than offering

:24:27. > :24:28.constructive ideas. She is contributing now in her debate

:24:29. > :24:34.although sadly there were no actual solutions about what we could do

:24:35. > :24:38.alternatively. What I intend to do is set up not by suggestion but by

:24:39. > :24:43.very clear announcement the plans that we have, the reasons why we

:24:44. > :24:52.want to do them and how we will enact them over the years to come.

:24:53. > :24:56.This opposition has proffered many solutions to the Government over

:24:57. > :25:01.time. Last week, in the form of a cross-party solution to the doctors

:25:02. > :25:05.crisis, which was thrown back in the face of our front bench. There is a

:25:06. > :25:10.solution. The Government at the moment is taking an apprenticeship

:25:11. > :25:13.leading from large employers, including the NHS. Would he agree to

:25:14. > :25:20.speak his business colleagues to see whether the apprenticeship levy

:25:21. > :25:25.could be spent on subsidising nurses to tackle the challenge they have in

:25:26. > :25:29.funding? Has honourable friend, the member for Ilford North, discussed

:25:30. > :25:35.this with me a number of times and he has concerns about the proposals.

:25:36. > :25:38.He offered useful suggestions about the detail and I accepted what he

:25:39. > :25:44.wanted to say and incorporated them within our thinking. I am willing to

:25:45. > :25:49.listen to people across the House when they have helpful suggestions

:25:50. > :25:53.and I'm sure the Minister for Skills would like to listen to his

:25:54. > :25:57.contributions. The way not to do it is to come to the House with a

:25:58. > :26:03.series of criticisms and not one suggestion, least of all any money

:26:04. > :26:14.to provide an increase in training places this plan was provide. --

:26:15. > :26:17.will provide. Were it not even further number and reason of

:26:18. > :26:23.producing 10,000 additional training places in our university systems, or

:26:24. > :26:31.for the fact we have a broken planning system, because we will not

:26:32. > :26:37.be able to predict in 20 or 30 years' time the number of NHS

:26:38. > :26:41.workers we will require, even if it were not for that it would be

:26:42. > :26:44.important to make this change because of the changes it will make

:26:45. > :26:50.to the quality of training we can provide to nursing graduates. What

:26:51. > :26:53.has happened in the undergraduate sector across the rest of

:26:54. > :26:59.undergraduate training is that we have seen universities released to

:27:00. > :27:05.innovate, provide improvements in their courses, satisfaction levels

:27:06. > :27:09.have gone up, dropping out rates have gone down, and people are

:27:10. > :27:13.getting a better experience. But we have not been able to spread those

:27:14. > :27:17.advantages to nurses who, I'm afraid, still are trapped in a

:27:18. > :27:21.system which is prescriptive rather than listening to what they need and

:27:22. > :27:29.what their future employers will need in terms of skills. That is why

:27:30. > :27:34.by releasing universities from the straitjacket in which they have had

:27:35. > :27:36.to operate, we will be able to provide significant improvements to

:27:37. > :27:44.the quality of training they provide. It is an assertion which is

:27:45. > :27:51.backed up by the evidence of the past five years and has received the

:27:52. > :27:56.recommendation of Professor Jessica Corner, the chairman of the Council

:27:57. > :28:00.of deans of health. She said, we recognise this has been a difficult

:28:01. > :28:05.decision to the Government at we are pleased the Government has found a

:28:06. > :28:10.way forward. Fully implemented, this should allow universities in

:28:11. > :28:13.partnership with NHS to increase places and improve day-to-day

:28:14. > :28:17.financial support for students while they study. The plan means students

:28:18. > :28:24.will have access to more day-to-day maintenance support through the

:28:25. > :28:28.system and likewise universities UK support increasing professional

:28:29. > :28:32.student numbers to work with the Government and NHS to secure the

:28:33. > :28:38.sustainable funding system we have provided. They are pleased about the

:28:39. > :28:43.impact this will have on placement training. These are the people

:28:44. > :28:47.providing training in our NHS and they support the proposals we have

:28:48. > :28:49.had forward because they will release the same kind of innovation

:28:50. > :28:56.we have seen elsewhere in the university sector. I wanted to

:28:57. > :28:59.reinforce a point he is making witches, I think, and he will know

:29:00. > :29:04.the answer, that the shows actually far more people from deprived

:29:05. > :29:08.backgrounds have gone to university since the changes made five years

:29:09. > :29:12.ago. Could you confirm that? At a time when the benches opposite said

:29:13. > :29:19.it would have the opposite effect. The evidence is more conclusive then

:29:20. > :29:24.he said. Could you confirm the maintenance grants will go up to

:29:25. > :29:30.25%, which will help on that specific point he mentioned? It

:29:31. > :29:33.brings me onto the next point I wanted to make which is the great

:29:34. > :29:37.virtue of these reforms as far as June finance is concerned is that it

:29:38. > :29:43.means we can increase student finance support, maintenance support

:29:44. > :29:48.by 25 cent. She makes some clear and sensible points that working as a

:29:49. > :29:52.student nurse, training as a student nurse is different from being a

:29:53. > :29:58.history undergraduate. It means you have less time to take on jobs but

:29:59. > :30:03.even more reason therefore to provide better maintenance support.

:30:04. > :30:07.She has not come to the House saying she is gone to provide 25%

:30:08. > :30:10.additional maintenance support for students who do not have the time to

:30:11. > :30:17.be able to go and get second jobs as a result. She has not come with that

:30:18. > :30:20.commitment and yet she has criticised our efforts to increase

:30:21. > :30:25.maintenance support by 25% precisely to help those people who would not

:30:26. > :30:30.otherwise be able to take time out in order to take on university

:30:31. > :30:34.courses. She cannot have it both ways. She can't on one hand

:30:35. > :30:37.criticise us for the reforms we are undertaking while at the same time

:30:38. > :30:42.seeing students need greater support. It is through those reforms

:30:43. > :30:51.we are producing the support so many students require. He talks about

:30:52. > :30:55.maintenance support. Can you clarify that support will no longer be in

:30:56. > :31:00.the form of a grant but in the form of a loan and will land a student in

:31:01. > :31:06.even more debt when they finally qualify? By reforming the system so

:31:07. > :31:11.it becomes alone rather than a grant we are able to produce 25% extra

:31:12. > :31:17.support for students whilst the train, much as with the rest of the

:31:18. > :31:23.student population. The results on newly qualified nurses are not, as

:31:24. > :31:26.the honourable lady suggests. Here, she should be very clear in the way

:31:27. > :31:32.she addresses this question because all of us have a duty to inform the

:31:33. > :31:38.public properly. The one thing that would be remiss of us is even if we

:31:39. > :31:41.disagreed as to mislead potential students into thinking they will

:31:42. > :31:49.have to pay more than they otherwise would. In her speech she said that

:31:50. > :31:55.students would have to pay hundreds of pounds more in terms of

:31:56. > :31:59.repayments once they qualify. It just is not the case. We anticipate

:32:00. > :32:05.a newly qualified nurse will be paying roughly ?90 per year more,

:32:06. > :32:13.about the same as they are currently paying because of the way student

:32:14. > :32:18.payment finance is, and the impact on newly qualified nurses will not

:32:19. > :32:23.be anywhere near the impact she has suggested. She should be careful

:32:24. > :32:27.about how she addresses are points because otherwise people will

:32:28. > :32:35.receive an impression about these loans that is not fact. Can he tell

:32:36. > :32:47.us what cancellation he has made of how much will be unpaid back of the

:32:48. > :32:53.loan? The economic impact assessment as part of the consultation. It

:32:54. > :32:56.depends on the way the student work first developed over the next 20 or

:32:57. > :33:01.30 years but it is fully costed within the Treasury's assumptions.

:33:02. > :33:06.We anticipate people working beneath the current limits will not be

:33:07. > :33:12.paying back more than at the moment. That is the way the payments are

:33:13. > :33:14.cultivated. This will not land on newly qualified nurses with new

:33:15. > :33:20.payments that they had otherwise not expected.

:33:21. > :33:27.I am grateful to the Honourable Gentleman. The Minister urged me to

:33:28. > :33:33.be careful with my words, which I was, and I recognise he is being

:33:34. > :33:37.careful with his as well. He is talking about newly qualified

:33:38. > :33:44.nurses. Can he confirm what the average repayment would be for the

:33:45. > :33:50.average nurse? The average nurse, as she claims it, is not a figure we

:33:51. > :33:54.currently have, because how would I project 50 years into the future for

:33:55. > :34:00.precisely the reasons we have discussed, where their career path

:34:01. > :34:08.will go? But the actual repayments, I will turn to the Honourable Lady

:34:09. > :34:11.from Kingston-upon-Hull in a second, the actual payments are listed in

:34:12. > :34:19.the consultation document and are clear about the man to be paid back

:34:20. > :34:24.over and above what would -- what students would be expected to pay --

:34:25. > :34:30.the amount to be paid back. The only way we are going to square the

:34:31. > :34:34.circle is by reforming student finance, so rather than shouting,

:34:35. > :34:39.she may like to know that whereas she suggested many in her

:34:40. > :34:43.constituency would be none the wiser about this reform, when I talked

:34:44. > :34:48.about the reforms to nurses in her constituency a few moments ago and

:34:49. > :34:52.about the introduction of apprenticeships, nursing associate

:34:53. > :34:57.grades, all of which are at peace with the reforms I am outlining,

:34:58. > :35:01.they were excited about the changes we are making to the nursing

:35:02. > :35:05.profession. All of this is only possible within a budget carefully

:35:06. > :35:12.controlled where priorities are being made about where money is

:35:13. > :35:15.being spent. I will give way. From a sedentary position I shouldn't have

:35:16. > :35:19.been shouting at the Minister that I am surprised that he comes to this

:35:20. > :35:23.House and is unable to answer a basic question about what the amount

:35:24. > :35:29.of money lost would be through the scheme he wants to Jews. Surely he

:35:30. > :35:36.ought to those facts at his fingertips. I do have them. A newly

:35:37. > :35:43.qualified nurse will not pay more than one under the current system.

:35:44. > :35:48.For those on higher pay rates... If she does not have the details I will

:35:49. > :35:53.write to her with the details. What I will say to be Honourable ladies

:35:54. > :35:57.and gentleman opposite is that rather than picking precisely at

:35:58. > :36:02.points because they are refusing to face up to the fact that they have

:36:03. > :36:06.two fund their commitments out of additional money, they should listen

:36:07. > :36:11.carefully to the entirety of the reforms we are proposing. I will

:36:12. > :36:16.make some progress if the Honourable Lady will not mind. First we are

:36:17. > :36:20.introducing a new nursing associate grade which my Honourable Friend

:36:21. > :36:24.mentioned previously. This is an extraordinary opportunity to be able

:36:25. > :36:28.to eradicate one of the great unfairness is in the NHS at the

:36:29. > :36:31.moment, that there are brilliant people working as health care

:36:32. > :36:34.assistants who cannot become registered nurses because they were

:36:35. > :36:39.let down by the schools they went to. It is a consequence I am afraid

:36:40. > :36:42.of the failure of school reform under the previous Government and

:36:43. > :36:51.over previous governments, people were failed to the extent that they

:36:52. > :36:53.have not been given the opportunities they deserve. We will

:36:54. > :36:55.reverse them by providing an apprenticeship ladder, both to

:36:56. > :36:59.nursing associate role and from there to registered nursing

:37:00. > :37:04.position, degree apprenticeship available to both able and confident

:37:05. > :37:09.to reach that grade, a route of opportunity not available under the

:37:10. > :37:13.previously the Government, a route of opportunity brought in by this

:37:14. > :37:18.Conservative Government, one nation party for all. It is by making those

:37:19. > :37:23.reforms, by bringing in a nursing associate role, by creating 100,000

:37:24. > :37:27.apprentices in the NHS, many of whom will be health care assistants

:37:28. > :37:32.working their way to a nursing associate position and from there to

:37:33. > :37:37.registered nursing grade, will give multiple opportunities for people to

:37:38. > :37:42.become nurses. Both those who want to learn while they are learning who

:37:43. > :37:49.are already in the service, who will take four and a half, five, six

:37:50. > :37:53.years to get to a registered nursing role or those able to take time out

:37:54. > :37:57.to do a degree to become a registered nurse for whom we will

:37:58. > :38:03.provide additional support in terms of maintenance grants. Members are

:38:04. > :38:06.shaking their hands but I don't know what out, are they shaking their

:38:07. > :38:12.heads at the 100,000 apprenticeships we are creating or the nursing

:38:13. > :38:17.associate roles, or at the increased maintenance support? None of that

:38:18. > :38:24.has been addressed in the Honourable Lady's speech. That is why I hope in

:38:25. > :38:27.my last remaining minutes, I hope my Honourable Friend won't mind if I

:38:28. > :38:33.conclude my remarks. I know members across the House want to intervene

:38:34. > :38:37.on this debate. Why this reform is important, not just for individuals

:38:38. > :38:42.who want to become nurses, not just for matters of social equality and

:38:43. > :38:49.opportunity, but also important for the NHS. You see, the NHS is not

:38:50. > :38:53.able to innovate like other parts of our public sector and private sector

:38:54. > :38:59.because of the long lead times in terms of training people. We do not

:39:00. > :39:02.have the instruments within the NHS to be able to reflect the dramatic

:39:03. > :39:07.changes in demographics and technology which changed the NHS not

:39:08. > :39:11.year by year but month on month. The great benefit of bringing in

:39:12. > :39:16.apprenticeship routes, nursing associate roles, of diverse of the

:39:17. > :39:20.skill mix, creating quicker and more numerous routes into the nursing

:39:21. > :39:28.profession, is that we can create a more diverse, more flexible and more

:39:29. > :39:32.agile trained workforce. All will be possible because of the reforms of

:39:33. > :39:37.which this bursary reform is part. None would have been possible with

:39:38. > :39:40.the reduction in funding promised by the party opposite or the failure to

:39:41. > :39:48.wish reform upon the system. That is why, Madam Deputy Speaker, I hope

:39:49. > :39:54.this House will reject this motion, full of suggestions and indications

:39:55. > :39:59.rather than firm plans, from the party opposite. This motion says

:40:00. > :40:04.nothing for the future of the people that the NHS depend upon. It does

:40:05. > :40:08.nothing to suggest how we will increase numbers or provide

:40:09. > :40:11.additional maintenance support, almost importantly, provide

:40:12. > :40:16.opportunity for those who have not yet had any. We will do that by

:40:17. > :40:20.reforming the system just as we did in 2010. We will make sure we do not

:40:21. > :40:25.listen to the well-intentioned but erroneous voices from the party

:40:26. > :40:34.opposite, which had we listen to in 2010, would have denied opportunity

:40:35. > :40:37.to tens of thousands of people. We will be determined not to do that.

:40:38. > :40:39.We will be the party of opportunity, presenting it to those who want to

:40:40. > :40:43.be in nursing or any other position in the NHS because this will only be

:40:44. > :40:49.a truly national health this event provides opportunity to the many,

:40:50. > :40:52.not the few. Many thanks, Madam Deputy Speaker. I must initially

:40:53. > :40:56.declare an interest you to my work in the NHS and for having had the

:40:57. > :41:01.privilege of being trained as a doctor with the availability of a

:41:02. > :41:05.grant. The National Health Service is one of our most esteemed public

:41:06. > :41:10.services but at present in the UK there is a long-standing shortage of

:41:11. > :41:14.qualified health care professionals. While the current bursary system for

:41:15. > :41:18.nursing and allied health care students may not be without issue

:41:19. > :41:24.the UK Government's proposed changes to this as laid out are concerning.

:41:25. > :41:27.Additionally, is the manner these have been presented with detailed

:41:28. > :41:33.consideration of the impact somewhat lacking? As you have heard, the UK

:41:34. > :41:38.Government are proposing the current NHS bursary system be changed.

:41:39. > :41:42.Instead health care students will be required to pay tuition fees and be

:41:43. > :41:47.subject to the same standard loan system other students in a number

:41:48. > :41:52.subject to. The UK Government have indicated they expect these reforms

:41:53. > :41:55.to create up to 10,000 additional nurses and health professional

:41:56. > :42:00.training places over the current Parliament. But this appears to be

:42:01. > :42:08.narrow sighted. The proposed move to a system allowing students funding

:42:09. > :42:09.themselves by taking on debts as raid substantial concerns amongst

:42:10. > :42:17.unions, professional bodies and students. One of the key questions

:42:18. > :42:20.is such a move could be a barrier to tearing prospective students from

:42:21. > :42:25.entering the profession. I must say as I stand here, the first doctor in

:42:26. > :42:28.my family, I would not have considered applying had it meant

:42:29. > :42:33.racking up such debt. I am particularly concerned about access

:42:34. > :42:37.to doctorate causes and for postgraduate requirements. Will we

:42:38. > :42:44.create an elite workforce, one not based upon ability but instead upon

:42:45. > :42:48.means? Unison estimate that under the new scheme student undertaking a

:42:49. > :42:54.three-year 30 week course outside London will graduate with debtor lit

:42:55. > :43:04.-- of at least ?51,600 plus interest and any over draft plus any personal

:43:05. > :43:08.debt. Her own achievements are to be applauded by all of us, but does she

:43:09. > :43:12.recognise that there are people out there who don't think university is

:43:13. > :43:16.for them, but for whom a two-year apprenticeship course offered by the

:43:17. > :43:21.new nursing associate route will give a real opportunity to get into

:43:22. > :43:25.the NHS, and maybe later go on to be a full nurse. I thank the Honourable

:43:26. > :43:31.Member for his intervention. I would like to see a widening of access

:43:32. > :43:35.into schemes in the NHS in terms of training. I would hope that it is

:43:36. > :43:42.properly funded and we don't rely on NHS staff to take other jobs while

:43:43. > :43:45.training and to undertake the stress of the straining along is -- stress

:43:46. > :43:53.of the training alongside other jobs. We know the NHS staff we have

:43:54. > :44:01.are invaluable and we want to fund them in that capacity. For many,

:44:02. > :44:05.their loans may be higher due to the additional cost from longer courses

:44:06. > :44:09.and courses in London, and as already stated I am particular

:44:10. > :44:12.concerned about postgraduate courses for doctorate trainees who may not

:44:13. > :44:19.be able to afford continual loans which are to their debt. As such it

:44:20. > :44:22.is likely that the majority of health care students, the size of

:44:23. > :44:27.their debt could be considerably higher. I believe it is naive to

:44:28. > :44:32.think larger loans will not be a psychological deterrent, especially

:44:33. > :44:36.those from poorer or nonuniversity backgrounds or mature students, or

:44:37. > :44:39.those who have changed careers who may have additional financial

:44:40. > :44:44.responsibilities or debts from those degrees or in relation to family

:44:45. > :44:48.life. The demographic of students on nursing, midwifery and allied health

:44:49. > :44:52.professions tends to be different from other student populations as we

:44:53. > :44:56.have heard. It is more likely to be women from black and minority ethnic

:44:57. > :45:02.backgrounds, parents and mature students. It is likely therefore,

:45:03. > :45:06.and a real concern, that abolishing bursaries will reduce diversity,

:45:07. > :45:14.Foster inequality and encourage potentially high quality applicants.

:45:15. > :45:21.I thank the Member for giving way. She is making a very valid,

:45:22. > :45:26.important point. Can I get to something the Minister said, the

:45:27. > :45:29.frustration for me was that I was a Unison trade union wrap before I

:45:30. > :45:33.came to this place in home care, and we were able, with those women who

:45:34. > :45:42.weren't qualified before, give them access to health care assistant to a

:45:43. > :45:46.foundation degree, vacation all degree, into hospital, in much the

:45:47. > :45:54.way the Minister claims is not possible. It is important they are

:45:55. > :46:01.not disadvantaged by the thousands of pounds of debt they take on. I

:46:02. > :46:05.think you have made your own point! It is extremely important that

:46:06. > :46:10.people from all backgrounds are encouraged to enter our NHS. We have

:46:11. > :46:15.a diverse society in the UK and we have two insure our health staff

:46:16. > :46:20.respect this and support people from all backgrounds to enter it --

:46:21. > :46:25.health care staff. I also think it is not enough just to increase

:46:26. > :46:29.numbers by creating an open market for training. To ensure a quality

:46:30. > :46:33.service it is crucial that student places are well planned, well

:46:34. > :46:37.supervised and well distributed between the areas within the

:46:38. > :46:41.service. Therefore much consultation will be required. In response to the

:46:42. > :46:46.Government's proposals the chief executive of the Royal College of

:46:47. > :46:49.Nursing has commented, the last thing we need are disincentives to

:46:50. > :46:53.recruitment. We should do everything possible to attract applicants as

:46:54. > :46:59.the country needs more nurses now than any other time in history. The

:47:00. > :47:04.Honourable Member is making many valid points. For example, if you

:47:05. > :47:08.live in Wales and you want to study at an English university the

:47:09. > :47:12.proposals are to stop the bursary but if you live in England, Scotland

:47:13. > :47:16.or Northern Ireland and want to study in Wales, Welsh university,

:47:17. > :47:24.nursing, midwifery or an allied health profession, the label Welsh

:47:25. > :47:28.Government will pay that bursary. Taking that to conclusion, the

:47:29. > :47:33.numbers will decrease in England and increase in Wales and Scotland and

:47:34. > :47:39.Northern Ireland. But my most concerning point is that the UK

:47:40. > :47:42.Government does not commit to undertaking an impact assessment on

:47:43. > :47:45.cross-border applications before proceeding with these changes. Does

:47:46. > :47:52.the Honourable Member think they should have? Many thanks. Once again

:47:53. > :47:57.the Honourable Lady makes her point very well. My belief is that we are

:47:58. > :48:02.required to staff the NHS well across the UK. Impact assessments

:48:03. > :48:07.may be required to be considered down the line if there is a shortage

:48:08. > :48:12.as a result of this policy in England, and I hope that answers

:48:13. > :48:17.your point. In Scotland the SNP Government recognised the value of

:48:18. > :48:18.investing in our NHS and provided a support package which is hugely

:48:19. > :48:35.generous in comparison to England. Singh and midwifery student

:48:36. > :48:43.bursary... This can be topped up with a range of income assessed

:48:44. > :48:48.allowances. There are other examples of other ways to progress in terms

:48:49. > :48:52.of this policy. Under the SNP government, the NHS staff numbers

:48:53. > :48:55.have increased by over 10000 and the party is committed to supporting the

:48:56. > :49:00.development of a quality health service which will meet the needs of

:49:01. > :49:07.Scottish people not just now only but in the future as well. Workforce

:49:08. > :49:13.projections from this years show 1000 extra NHS staff expected to be

:49:14. > :49:19.recruited across Scotland this year. There is an 8.4% increase in NHS

:49:20. > :49:23.staffing to a record high, more qualified nurses and midwives per

:49:24. > :49:27.1000 population in Scotland than in England and Wales and in the last

:49:28. > :49:35.year Scotland has seen all nursing and midwifery staff increase with a

:49:36. > :49:44.projected increase of 600 full-time equivalents over the financial year.

:49:45. > :49:50.Doctors are up 26.7% or 2000 500 full-time equivalents, and

:49:51. > :49:53.consultants are at a record high. If a newly qualified nurse is

:49:54. > :49:57.guaranteed one year of employment once they complete studies, a

:49:58. > :50:04.commitment not offered anywhere else in the UK. The health Minister also

:50:05. > :50:08.confirmed the nursing and midwifery student bursary and allowance would

:50:09. > :50:20.be protected at existing levels in 2016/ 17. The NHS is a crucial

:50:21. > :50:26.public service and this government cannot continue to railroad their

:50:27. > :50:29.way through it. Although reform may be needed to address current issues

:50:30. > :50:35.within the service, such decisions should not be made hastily and

:50:36. > :50:38.without full consideration of the impact and potential workable

:50:39. > :50:43.alternatives. We have already heard workable alternatives today. I would

:50:44. > :50:47.urge the Minister to commit to a comprehensive consultation on the

:50:48. > :50:51.full proposals to determine the best way to support and invest in the

:50:52. > :50:56.service and to support its students. This is a vital workforce which we

:50:57. > :51:06.depend upon in our times of crisis. It is only right that the should be

:51:07. > :51:11.able to depend upon us during their training and the NHS in future. We

:51:12. > :51:18.will have a time of seven minutes to start with. There are quite large of

:51:19. > :51:26.people wanting to speak. Can I start by congratulating the shadow health

:51:27. > :51:30.secretary by calling this debate? It matters because of the impact on

:51:31. > :51:40.patients, the nursing workforce shortfall. We had evidence on the

:51:41. > :51:47.health committee about an estimated shortfall of 15,000 - 20,000 nurses.

:51:48. > :51:52.It is not the overall shortfall but variations geographically and in key

:51:53. > :51:58.areas, primary care, community, mental health, so we need to look at

:51:59. > :52:03.this as a big picture. That shortfall adds costs and we know the

:52:04. > :52:08.agency staffing bill was around ?3.3 billion in the last year. And three

:52:09. > :52:12.quarters of trusts are still breaching the agency price caps.

:52:13. > :52:17.Although we are making some progress with it being 303 million in October

:52:18. > :52:22.last year and 287 in February this year. These are resources which

:52:23. > :52:28.should be spent elsewhere on patient care. There is an over dependence on

:52:29. > :52:32.nurses trained overseas, very valued part of the workforce but these are

:52:33. > :52:37.often recruited from countries that can ill afford to lose them. We need

:52:38. > :52:43.to train more nurses. That is the prime consideration of this debate

:52:44. > :52:47.and how we achieve that. I congratulate the minister in the

:52:48. > :52:51.proposals to open up very many more places to nursing students but we

:52:52. > :52:56.should consider some unintended consequences and those are the areas

:52:57. > :53:01.I would like to touch on further. We must do so without disadvantaging or

:53:02. > :53:08.cutting off our current core nursing workforce and it is absolutely right

:53:09. > :53:13.we pay particular attention to the impact on mature students because we

:53:14. > :53:19.have heard the data on that. 23% of all nursing applicants are over 30.

:53:20. > :53:26.More than half are over 21. The average age is 28. This mature

:53:27. > :53:32.nursing workforce, are they going to be deterred from applications? We

:53:33. > :53:43.have already seen an innovative example. That is the University of

:53:44. > :53:46.Bolton partnering with the Lancashire teaching hospitals NHS

:53:47. > :53:53.Foundation Trust to start offering places where students apply through

:53:54. > :53:59.the UCAS route and they introduced 25 places in the first pilot,

:54:00. > :54:03.February last year, there were 650 applicants for those 25 places. Even

:54:04. > :54:10.though the applicant 's new they would have to access loans. A very

:54:11. > :54:14.successful second round, and it is now increased to 75 places this

:54:15. > :54:19.year. I think the assumption that people simply will not apply for

:54:20. > :54:23.these courses is not correct. Of course we need to bear in mind that

:54:24. > :54:29.does not necessarily mean we can extrapolate that to a wider increase

:54:30. > :54:33.in numbers but I think one of the things perhaps I would say to the

:54:34. > :54:38.Minister is, is there any room as we start to roll this out to retain in

:54:39. > :54:43.the first few years at least until we know the impact, some bursaries

:54:44. > :54:50.for our very valued core material nursing workforce? Is that something

:54:51. > :54:54.he would touch on in summing up, if there is any room for a period of

:54:55. > :54:59.transition? It is important that we bear in mind the potential for

:55:00. > :55:06.unintended consequences here. The fact is that two thirds of those

:55:07. > :55:09.applying for nursing places are unsuccessful. I think it is

:55:10. > :55:16.unreasonable not to increase the opportunity for those students. I

:55:17. > :55:21.very much welcome the Minister's plan to rule out other opportunities

:55:22. > :55:25.to enter the nursing workforce. We know from the Cavendish review that

:55:26. > :55:31.one of the reasons we lose so many of our core health care assistant

:55:32. > :55:34.workforce is because there are now continuing professional development

:55:35. > :55:41.opportunities for them and very many of those who we know are fantastic

:55:42. > :55:45.at their job are no longer able to progress in the way we should allow.

:55:46. > :55:52.The focus should be what is best for patients. That is for us to train up

:55:53. > :56:00.a more diverse workforce and to do so through many routes. I think

:56:01. > :56:05.there is a case for saying let's not completely abolish bursaries in the

:56:06. > :56:07.first round but perhaps phase that in slowly. Perhaps another

:56:08. > :56:12.opportunity we could look at to attract people into nursing is to

:56:13. > :56:19.recognise the clinical component is very high in the nursing Court,

:56:20. > :56:24.around 50%, and is there any way we could recognise that with a system

:56:25. > :56:30.for those who would otherwise be deterred from payment? Or perhaps at

:56:31. > :56:34.the end of a nursing course, recognising, particularly for mature

:56:35. > :56:39.students have taken on a second agree, could we allow an extra

:56:40. > :56:44.payments to go for those nurses, particularly those who will go on to

:56:45. > :56:49.train in specialties, linked with a period of NHS service? I know we are

:56:50. > :56:54.using that in general practice to attract people into specialties.

:56:55. > :56:59.Would the Minister also consider in responding to the legitimate

:57:00. > :57:04.concerns about the impact on the mature nursing workforce? In

:57:05. > :57:11.summary, I would say there are things we are doing and making

:57:12. > :57:16.progress on but I think we should recognise unintended consequences. I

:57:17. > :57:19.hope the Minister will also look at some of the other recommendations

:57:20. > :57:24.from the recent health committee inquiry into primary care to

:57:25. > :57:28.actually ask what we can do is we increase the number of the courses,

:57:29. > :57:35.to increase the exposure to shortage specialties within the period of

:57:36. > :57:40.their training. Too many of our health care workforce are staying

:57:41. > :57:49.within acute-care and we know if they have increased exposure during

:57:50. > :57:54.training they are unlikely go into specialties. Could the Minister

:57:55. > :58:00.please touch on the area of registration? We heard evidence that

:58:01. > :58:05.sometimes not being registered as a deterrent to people taking on

:58:06. > :58:12.physician associates and I think it is a recognition of their skills and

:58:13. > :58:16.expertise to allow them to be registered. These should be

:58:17. > :58:25.professional qualifications and I hope the Minister will refer to that

:58:26. > :58:30.in his summing up. Jeff Smith. It is a great pleasure to follow the

:58:31. > :58:33.honourable lady. I have a lot of respect for her and she commands

:58:34. > :58:38.respect across the House and it is important we listened to her views.

:58:39. > :58:45.It is important to listen to other people's views, like her colleague

:58:46. > :58:48.who said, speaking as a nurse I would struggle to undertake miners

:58:49. > :58:56.training given the proposals bursary scheme changes. I don't think it has

:58:57. > :58:59.been thought through. As a South Manchester MP I am proud to

:59:00. > :59:02.represent a large number of Manchester University students

:59:03. > :59:08.including many of our nurses and midwives of the future. The school

:59:09. > :59:11.of nursing midwifery and social work at Manchester University was the

:59:12. > :59:13.first institution in England to offer a nursing course and it

:59:14. > :59:21.remains one of the top ten universities in the world to study

:59:22. > :59:24.that same degree today. For the 2000 students currently studying there as

:59:25. > :59:28.well as those weighing up their future with health care education in

:59:29. > :59:31.mind, the Government proposals on student bursaries do nothing to

:59:32. > :59:33.instil any confidence that the Government understands the

:59:34. > :59:39.perspective of student nurses or potential student nurses. I want to

:59:40. > :59:45.use my brief remarks to raise two main points. First, the

:59:46. > :59:48.disappointing lack of consultation with organisations such as the Royal

:59:49. > :59:55.College of Nursing and the effectiveness will have on potential

:59:56. > :00:01.future students and patient care. Ensuring access to these professions

:00:02. > :00:07.remains fair and funding is sustainable and that the Government

:00:08. > :00:17.suspects with experts -- consults with experts is vital. One of the

:00:18. > :00:22.biggest concerns consistently raised is the Government's reluctance to

:00:23. > :00:25.engage with stakeholders. We have heard from charities,

:00:26. > :00:30.representatives of organisations and think tanks that the evidence base

:00:31. > :00:34.for these proposals is at best uncertain and at worst nonexistent.

:00:35. > :00:40.I think the very real fear is these proposals will reduce and not

:00:41. > :00:44.increase numbers entering nursing studies. Even the 12 week

:00:45. > :00:49.consultation the minister spoke of earlier takes the form of a

:00:50. > :00:52.technical questionnaire on their implementation of the proposals

:00:53. > :01:02.rather than a real consultation on the substantive policy proposals. In

:01:03. > :01:07.terms of stakeholders consultation and so on, would he agree with me

:01:08. > :01:10.that where you have a hospital like Gloucestershire Royal hospital which

:01:11. > :01:13.is very strongly supporting the concept of nursing associates and

:01:14. > :01:20.wants to run a pilot project, you must assume they see real value in

:01:21. > :01:24.terms of providing good nursing for its patients and my constituents and

:01:25. > :01:32.that surely is is telling us anything in a formal consultation?

:01:33. > :01:35.Parliamentary questions showed us the Department of Health failed to

:01:36. > :01:44.consult with either of the Royal College of midwives, nursing or

:01:45. > :01:49.Unison prying... Prior to last year. It is not just the Labour Party who

:01:50. > :01:55.are worried, there is Royal colleges, the NHS independent review

:01:56. > :02:05.body and other members across the House. It is little surprise that

:02:06. > :02:09.they fail to understand the unique characteristics of the sector and

:02:10. > :02:11.those who work in it. This has been driven by short-term financial

:02:12. > :02:16.savings at the cost of tackling the big questions about how we fund the

:02:17. > :02:20.NHS in decades to come. What about the effects of this policy on the

:02:21. > :02:25.nurses and midwives of the future? At the centre of any health care

:02:26. > :02:30.education policy must be the students themselves. In this case

:02:31. > :02:34.they are diverse, older than most, the average age is 28,

:02:35. > :02:42.overwhelmingly female, greater numbers from BME backgrounds and

:02:43. > :02:46.completing a degree that necessitates 2300 hours over three

:02:47. > :02:53.years in clinical practice. Any legislation we need to design to

:02:54. > :02:57.encourage students in future to guarantee high quality care for

:02:58. > :03:03.patients must recognise those people, people like Katie, a nurse

:03:04. > :03:06.in my constituency who wrote to me about our concerns about the

:03:07. > :03:11.prospect of debt. She said it is particularly worrying for mature

:03:12. > :03:13.students, many of whom have dependents and it could deter them

:03:14. > :03:18.from joining the profession altogether. I can relate to this is

:03:19. > :03:21.the real my close colleagues are mature students and stated on

:03:22. > :03:25.multiple occasions that without the bursary nursing school would not

:03:26. > :03:32.have been an option. Student nurses are not like other students. 50% of

:03:33. > :03:35.their time is spent on unpaid clinical placements in hospitals and

:03:36. > :03:39.therefore there are simply not the same opportunities for part-time

:03:40. > :03:43.work as other students. I could not have completed this course without

:03:44. > :03:47.the bursary. Studying nursing involves anticipation in

:03:48. > :03:53.extracurricular activities and this is in line with the recent national

:03:54. > :03:56.initiative revalidation therefore time for part-time work becomes very

:03:57. > :04:00.difficult and many of my friends have been turned away from part-time

:04:01. > :04:06.jobs because our weekly schedules, working shifts and completing unique

:04:07. > :04:09.work is often sporadic. -- university work. This bursary

:04:10. > :04:14.covered my rent and without it I would not have been able to support

:04:15. > :04:15.myself and Norwood my family. We must take these views on board when

:04:16. > :04:26.we look at this new policy. The House of Commons research has

:04:27. > :04:31.showed that the net savings made to the Treasury by measures taken by

:04:32. > :04:35.this Government since 2010, 80 6% will have come from women. Would he

:04:36. > :04:41.agree that these proposals are no different from those in the junior

:04:42. > :04:45.doctors dispute and bloodthirsty affect women rather than men. My

:04:46. > :04:50.Honourable Friend makes a very important point, it is important to

:04:51. > :04:55.remember that, and also important to remember how the prospect of paying

:04:56. > :05:05.off over ?100,000 of debt affects the calculation for a student

:05:06. > :05:08.studying a second time to become mental health nurse. It is important

:05:09. > :05:13.to consider how lone parent thinking of becoming midwife will consider

:05:14. > :05:18.?59,000 of repayments when considering the fact future for

:05:19. > :05:22.their family. That is the latest estimate of debt. It is important to

:05:23. > :05:27.consider how a nursing student taking part in a 48 week extended

:05:28. > :05:32.course is expected to find part-time work to make his or her studies by a

:05:33. > :05:37.bull. Not only is the Government's evidence based desperately weak but

:05:38. > :05:40.research by the Higher Education Funding Council for England says

:05:41. > :05:44.poorer students, lone parents and BME students, the demographic of

:05:45. > :05:49.many of those attracted to nursing, are disproportionately dissuaded

:05:50. > :05:54.from applying to university by the prospect of large amounts of debt.

:05:55. > :05:59.So this policy fails on two fronts. The refusal to engage with experts

:06:00. > :06:04.in the field have led to a misguided policy which privileges health care

:06:05. > :06:09.education for those who can afford it and four decades of debt. It

:06:10. > :06:12.fails to ensure fair and equal access to health care education.

:06:13. > :06:17.Secondly there is a real danger that this policy will fail to achieve its

:06:18. > :06:21.own name of attracting future students. Everyone in health who

:06:22. > :06:24.knows about these issues are shortage of nurses, midwives and

:06:25. > :06:30.other health professionals, but moving the of payment onto students

:06:31. > :06:39.widens the mistake. Deterring potential candidates by imposing

:06:40. > :06:44.debt on graduates is not the answer. I want to join the call from the

:06:45. > :06:48.Royal colleges of nursing and midwifery to ask the Government to

:06:49. > :06:52.rethink and scrap these proposals. We need a thorough and inclusive

:06:53. > :06:56.consultation process where those with experience of the system can

:06:57. > :07:01.contribute properly and I join their call for the Government to ensure

:07:02. > :07:04.that future students at Manchester University's School of nursing,

:07:05. > :07:09.midwifery and social work are not forced to bear the burden of a

:07:10. > :07:12.Government unwilling to listen. The Royal College of Nursing has said

:07:13. > :07:21.the Government has not thought had enough about the risks. It is time

:07:22. > :07:25.to do so. Madam Deputy Speaker, it has been a pleasure to follow on

:07:26. > :07:30.from the Honourable manner but for Manchester Withington. I would like

:07:31. > :07:33.to congratulate the spokesman for securing this debate because this

:07:34. > :07:39.debate does highlight what the pressures within the NHS and what we

:07:40. > :07:45.are currently facing. Currently, we start with 20,000 nurses. We lose

:07:46. > :07:49.3000 year. Maybe that is where the migration committee report gets its

:07:50. > :07:57.figures from, where we have to plug 3000. The Government say we need

:07:58. > :08:00.10,000 new nurses per year. Those figures are saying in stark terms

:08:01. > :08:05.that there is a loss percentage so maybe we can work out the costs of

:08:06. > :08:10.how many people drop out and how much it costs, and may we will can

:08:11. > :08:13.use that money within the NHS to put back into an apprenticeship scheme

:08:14. > :08:18.which is what the Government is proposing. The magic 3000 figure, it

:08:19. > :08:23.seems, actually does play into what the governments are thinking of in

:08:24. > :08:29.their respective creating of 10,000 -- in respect of creating 10,000 new

:08:30. > :08:34.nurses. The opposition say we have lost 2400 nurses in the last

:08:35. > :08:39.Government. The last Government said we had 3000 more nurses. Which one

:08:40. > :08:44.is correct? The truth is, both of them, it depends when you measure

:08:45. > :08:49.them. If you measure from election to election, meaning from May 2010

:08:50. > :08:55.to May 2014, the Prime Minister was correct saying we have created 3000

:08:56. > :08:58.new nurses. We also take into consideration health visitors,

:08:59. > :09:05.midwives and physiotherapists to an extent. The opposition say it is

:09:06. > :09:11.2400 from September to the following September, of 2014, there is a drop.

:09:12. > :09:14.Because believe it or not, recruitment and loss is seasonal. So

:09:15. > :09:23.we have to be grown up and address these concerns. How do we do this?

:09:24. > :09:29.Quite simply by reforming. We must open up from having fixed bursaries

:09:30. > :09:36.where we are attracting in the region of 20,000 nurses a year and

:09:37. > :09:40.losing 3000. You know, in the last Government, the opposition said, and

:09:41. > :09:43.I am saying this with respect to the opposition, at the time, bringing in

:09:44. > :09:49.reforms at that time in education would attract people from all

:09:50. > :09:53.backgrounds, I wouldn't say disadvantaged, all backgrounds, to

:09:54. > :09:56.go to university. I didn't go to university but my son is that

:09:57. > :10:01.University, the first Member of my family ever to go to university, and

:10:02. > :10:08.that isn't aspiration and an accolade. But here we are five years

:10:09. > :10:16.down the line, we have 10,150 new places since 2010 of students going

:10:17. > :10:20.to university, so we must actually open up that philosophy to the NHS.

:10:21. > :10:27.Because what is the difference between a student nurse starting on

:10:28. > :10:33.?21,000 or thereabouts a year and a junior doctors starting at ?26,000 a

:10:34. > :10:39.year? Nurses are as valued as doctors in the NHS. I certainly feel

:10:40. > :10:44.that. So why do some have bursaries yet we are not attracting the

:10:45. > :10:49.numbers, and some don't? My own trust, which is in difficulty at

:10:50. > :10:52.this time, but has overcome a lot of the difficulties and his

:10:53. > :10:58.Administration, and it is an accolade to them to do that, have

:10:59. > :11:04.been abroad recruiting nurses, where we could get nurses by opening up

:11:05. > :11:08.the bursary scheme... Taking away the bursary scheme and opening up to

:11:09. > :11:10.academia and trying to get more people within the system with

:11:11. > :11:15.apprenticeships. We could do that and plug the gap with home-grown

:11:16. > :11:23.skills and jobs here. So in the short time I have, Madam Deputy

:11:24. > :11:28.Speaker, to sum up, I think reforming will actually plug the gap

:11:29. > :11:33.in the skills shortage we need. I also think it will be fair to bring

:11:34. > :11:41.in nurses in line with doctors in the professional. -- in the

:11:42. > :11:44.profession. I also think people who want to get correctly accredited

:11:45. > :11:49.academia will see that as a good starting plate for the career that

:11:50. > :11:54.starts off at ?21,000. In all honesty the career doesn't start at

:11:55. > :11:59.21000 and then there, it goes up the pay scale like doctors do. So in

:12:00. > :12:03.conclusion, thank you very much Madam Deputy Speaker, and I thank

:12:04. > :12:07.all colleagues in the House for this debate, because I do think it is

:12:08. > :12:14.measured, and I do think it is something we have two address on all

:12:15. > :12:18.sides of the House. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I begin by

:12:19. > :12:21.thanking the Shadow Health Secretary and shadow health team for securing

:12:22. > :12:27.this important debate this afternoon to give us the opportunity to

:12:28. > :12:32.effectively debate early day motion 1081, set to become the most popular

:12:33. > :12:36.early day motion in this session of Parliament, signed by members from

:12:37. > :12:39.across this House including those on the Government benches, because of

:12:40. > :12:44.the grave concerns people have about the potential consequences of the

:12:45. > :12:49.decision the Government proposes to take around the NHS bursary. As I

:12:50. > :12:53.have argued previously in the adjournment debate we had on the

:12:54. > :12:56.floor of this House and also in Westminster Hall, we are debating

:12:57. > :13:03.this afternoon the biggest shake-up in the funding of nursing, midwifery

:13:04. > :13:06.and abide -- Allied health object since 1968, announced will without

:13:07. > :13:10.adequate evidence and planning as part of the Chancellor's budget

:13:11. > :13:13.rather than a carefully thought through policy proposal, which is

:13:14. > :13:22.why the Government is now in a position of only consulting people

:13:23. > :13:24.with a technical consultation rather than all stakeholders on the

:13:25. > :13:28.principle of this policy as they really ought to have done. Although

:13:29. > :13:31.myself and others will refer to student nurses and midwives, as

:13:32. > :13:34.shorthand it is important to acknowledge, as my Honourable Friend

:13:35. > :13:39.the Shadow Health Secretary did, this will affect students of all

:13:40. > :13:46.sorts of subjects that trained vital workers in a range of aspects of the

:13:47. > :13:48.NHS, for physiotherapists, occupational therapist, dieticians,

:13:49. > :13:54.radiographers, paramedics and others. That is why over 100 Right

:13:55. > :13:58.Honourable members signed the early day motion on thousands of members

:13:59. > :14:02.of the public have spoken out through the online petition. At

:14:03. > :14:06.present nursing, midwifery and allied health subjects are not

:14:07. > :14:11.subject to Jewish and fees, and students on those courses receive a

:14:12. > :14:19.non-means tested grant of up to ?1000 a year -- subjected tuition

:14:20. > :14:22.fees. As well as a bursary of up to 3900 pounds year, recognising they

:14:23. > :14:27.have to work considerably long hours in the courses, not just in

:14:28. > :14:33.libraries and lecture theatres but also on clinical practice as part of

:14:34. > :14:37.the full 24-hour care cycle. It is estimated student nurses work at

:14:38. > :14:41.least 2300 hours across the course of their degree. I am not sure many

:14:42. > :14:46.of this in this House with degrees could claim to have put in so many

:14:47. > :14:50.hours when we were at university and I think we should recognise the

:14:51. > :14:54.effort they need to make to secure their qualifications. Those who do

:14:55. > :14:59.work outside course hours to fund their degrees can end up working up

:15:00. > :15:09.to 60 hours as a result, and we should not expect them to do so,

:15:10. > :15:11.because of the deleterious impact it can have not just on their academic

:15:12. > :15:13.studies but their approach to clinical practice. Under the

:15:14. > :15:16.proposals brought forward by the Government the changes will mean

:15:17. > :15:20.students of the subjects will be charged tuition fees in excess of

:15:21. > :15:26.?9,000 a year, and as a result will be burdened with ?51,600 worth of

:15:27. > :15:30.debt. They will begin paying this back as soon as they graduate which

:15:31. > :15:36.means nurses will take on average pay cut of ?900 year. If that were

:15:37. > :15:42.not unacceptable in and of itself, I think the militias there should also

:15:43. > :15:46.explain when he winds up -- I think the Minister should explain, how it

:15:47. > :15:51.is fair that there is no recognition under the proposals in the student

:15:52. > :15:55.support system of the unique demands placed on these students. As a

:15:56. > :16:00.result of the NHS bursary as it exists at present alongside the

:16:01. > :16:03.tuition fee remission the students effectively received there is at

:16:04. > :16:07.least a recognition that for many of these students it is difficult if

:16:08. > :16:12.not impossible to take on the sorts of part-time work I did when I

:16:13. > :16:20.studied either for my A-levels or at university. For these students it is

:16:21. > :16:23.not possible to fund their degrees in this way, and there should be a

:16:24. > :16:29.recognition in the student support system that it is more expensive to

:16:30. > :16:33.study on these subjects, that the opportunities to earn extra income

:16:34. > :16:36.on top of your courses are not as readily available for these students

:16:37. > :16:40.as other students. It is a real mistake for the Government not to

:16:41. > :16:45.recognise that. I will give way to the chair of the select committee.

:16:46. > :17:01.Would he also accept that there is a serious problem with

:17:02. > :17:04.hardship on the existing bursaries particularly as the amount drops in

:17:05. > :17:07.the final year? I am grateful for that intervention. I will thank some

:17:08. > :17:09.of the people who have been in touch, but in particular I will

:17:10. > :17:12.never forget the first conversation I had with a student nurse in my

:17:13. > :17:15.constituency who sat with me a members area and cried because under

:17:16. > :17:17.the existing system she struggled to meet the costs of training to be a

:17:18. > :17:19.nurse, even with NHS bursary currently provided. Of course I want

:17:20. > :17:23.the student support system to be more generous for these students,

:17:24. > :17:28.because other students like her have dreams of being a student nurse, and

:17:29. > :17:33.it is not right that financial support, or lack thereof, should be

:17:34. > :17:39.a barrier to them taking on this valuable location that does so much

:17:40. > :17:44.for so many. The Government's policy is riddled with risk. Earlier, the

:17:45. > :17:48.Minister challenged my assertions on mature student numbers. It is a fact

:17:49. > :17:53.that in the wake of the introduction of the coalition's reforms to higher

:17:54. > :17:56.education, there was a fall in part-time mature numbers. The

:17:57. > :18:00.Minister claimed there were record numbers of missed your applicants to

:18:01. > :18:05.higher education. I can only assume he was referring to last year's

:18:06. > :18:09.figures. We should not identify a trend with one-year's figures not

:18:10. > :18:15.least because new figures for the 2016 application cycle published on

:18:16. > :18:21.the fourth of her brew 2016 shows an increasing 18-year-old applicants

:18:22. > :18:24.but a fall for most other older age-group categories. I am more than

:18:25. > :18:28.happy to look at the data and have an evidence -based debate, but let's

:18:29. > :18:31.have an evidence -based debate and not take one years worth of figures

:18:32. > :18:35.and claims there is some sort of trend.

:18:36. > :18:42.The Blues are the figures you display to house a very welcome

:18:43. > :18:49.indeed but they are different from the front bench of your opposition

:18:50. > :18:53.spokesman's figures. I don't think I disagree at all with the figures put

:18:54. > :18:59.forward by my honourable friend the Shadow Health Secretary. This is the

:19:00. > :19:06.problem with lies, damn lies and statistics. We must look at all the

:19:07. > :19:10.data before we identify trends. The minister singled out one year of

:19:11. > :19:17.application data. It is possible that numbers are around nursing,

:19:18. > :19:21.midwifery, allied health subjects account for a significant amount.

:19:22. > :19:25.The minister is talking about general applications for all

:19:26. > :19:29.subjects and I think we should probably ask the library to do some

:19:30. > :19:33.work so we can get to the bottom of the claims and counterclaims.

:19:34. > :19:36.Nonetheless I think most people around the higher education debate

:19:37. > :19:41.acknowledge there are still serious challenges in terms of access to

:19:42. > :19:44.higher education for part-time and mature applicants in light of the

:19:45. > :19:48.coalition reforms and that is one reason why the Government should

:19:49. > :19:56.tread carefully in this area. There is a shortage in the number of

:19:57. > :19:59.nurses we need. In 2011-12 the number of training places was cut to

:20:00. > :20:03.the lowest level since the 90s. Unison, which I am proud to be a

:20:04. > :20:06.member of, conducted a survey that found that two thirds of nurses

:20:07. > :20:13.believe staffing levels were worse than previously and 63% fuel the

:20:14. > :20:20.numbers are inadequate to provide a safe degree of support. But also

:20:21. > :20:25.reflects feedback from NHS staff in my own constituency and that is the

:20:26. > :20:33.thing -- something the Government should take seriously. I have met

:20:34. > :20:44.many nurses, midwives are professionals and students in health

:20:45. > :20:47.cert... -- health subjects. I am grateful for the research

:20:48. > :20:51.undertaken. A bit like to thank Unison, the Royal College of

:20:52. > :20:56.Nursing, Midwives, speech and language therapists. I would like to

:20:57. > :21:01.pay tribute to the outgoing president, Megan Duff, for the

:21:02. > :21:06.effective way she represented students during her term. These

:21:07. > :21:11.reforms to reflect a big risk to nursing numbers. I think at the very

:21:12. > :21:15.least this afternoon the minister should commit that before these

:21:16. > :21:19.reforms are implemented there will be a further full debate on the

:21:20. > :21:23.floor of this House and a vote of both this House and the other place

:21:24. > :21:30.before such a radical change to the funding of these crucial subjects is

:21:31. > :21:35.changed in the way the Government seeks to take forward. There is

:21:36. > :21:39.considerable concern and ministers shouldn't downplay this and I hope

:21:40. > :21:45.you will at least commits to a full vote in this House before it goes

:21:46. > :21:49.ahead. It is a pleasure to follow from the member for Ilford North who

:21:50. > :21:53.made a thoughtful speech and highlighted an important point about

:21:54. > :22:00.the different study load of those training to be nurses compared with

:22:01. > :22:04.some of us at university. I don't think that invalidates the

:22:05. > :22:09.Government's response but I think it is important to take it into

:22:10. > :22:13.account. Why can't I congratulated opposition spokesman for calling

:22:14. > :22:16.this debate, it has been very important, and I congratulate the

:22:17. > :22:20.Minister for a characteristically thoughtful, reasonable and lucid

:22:21. > :22:25.response to it. I can't help observing that actually this debate

:22:26. > :22:29.does demonstrate the value of having people in this House who come from

:22:30. > :22:34.genuine professions rather than having reached year purely as a

:22:35. > :22:38.result of being political professionals, and there have been

:22:39. > :22:44.considerable input from those who have been in the NHS. Although it is

:22:45. > :22:52.an opposition debate, there are points we can all agree on. We

:22:53. > :22:59.should agree we need to recruit, retain and train enough nurses to

:23:00. > :23:06.staff our health service to meet the needs of the British people.

:23:07. > :23:10.Secondly, we can agree it is wrong, morally wrong, to rely on recruiting

:23:11. > :23:14.nurses from poorer countries who have had to bear the cost of their

:23:15. > :23:22.training to meet our failure to train enough nurses ourselves and

:23:23. > :23:26.thirdly we should not to be turning away British people who want to

:23:27. > :23:35.train as nurses when we need more nurses ourselves. Surely we can all

:23:36. > :23:40.agree on those points. We can debate how best to refinance the

:23:41. > :23:42.recruitment, retention and motivation of sufficient nurses in

:23:43. > :23:52.this country but we should all agree that is the objective my initial --

:23:53. > :24:02.objective. My initial interest resulted in my first career and I

:24:03. > :24:10.discovered that we were denuding Africa of nurses. We had recruited

:24:11. > :24:13.more than one in eight of all the nurses in sub-Saharan Africa and

:24:14. > :24:19.brought them to this country. That could not be right. I lobbied

:24:20. > :24:25.against it and the then Prime Minister promised there would be no

:24:26. > :24:28.active recruitment from Africa although seven years later I

:24:29. > :24:34.discovered that we had recruited another 60,000 and four continuing

:24:35. > :24:42.to recruit several thousand per year, but we were promised it would

:24:43. > :24:47.cease. I blame myself that it took so long to realise the problem did

:24:48. > :24:53.not lie in recruiting in Africa and other places but our failure to

:24:54. > :24:58.train enough nurses of our own. I didn't ask why we were not doing so

:24:59. > :25:02.until I was talking to my local NHS who told me that they were

:25:03. > :25:09.recruiting abroad. Mainly in southern Europe but also in Asia.

:25:10. > :25:14.They were doing so despite the fact they preferred to recruit and

:25:15. > :25:17.employing nurses from the University of Hertfordshire, which they

:25:18. > :25:22.described as excellent, well trained and in every way desirable. I asked

:25:23. > :25:28.them why they did not recruit more and they said they could not recruit

:25:29. > :25:36.enough even if the recruited the next several years' worth. That's

:25:37. > :25:41.why they were recruiting abroad. I am thankful to the honourable member

:25:42. > :25:47.for giving way. Would he agree that it is ironic that through our

:25:48. > :25:50.international aid programmes we are actually assisting developing

:25:51. > :25:53.countries to pay for training placements in clinical studies was

:25:54. > :26:01.such as hospitals abroad and yet we do not afford the same rights to our

:26:02. > :26:08.NHS trainees here? It is certainly bizarre that we pay African

:26:09. > :26:16.countries to train nurses, and then probably recruit them to come here.

:26:17. > :26:22.It is bizarre. I don't mind the manner in which their training is

:26:23. > :26:25.financed. The problem was they couldn't get enough nurses from the

:26:26. > :26:30.University of Hertfordshire. I spoke to the university who said it wasn't

:26:31. > :26:33.because they had any lack of applicants for places, they turned

:26:34. > :26:37.away three quarters of applicants to their highly regarded nursing

:26:38. > :26:42.courses, but they were not allowed to expand. It had taken me decades

:26:43. > :26:51.to realise we had a system which limited the number of people we were

:26:52. > :26:54.recruiting. I lobbied the Government and it may be because of my lobbying

:26:55. > :27:00.we now have this proposal for bursaries although I suspect they

:27:01. > :27:07.reached the decision on the basis of their own evidence. The sad truth is

:27:08. > :27:13.that successive ministers of all parties, and we should recognise

:27:14. > :27:20.this, have bucked the question of how do we train enough people here.

:27:21. > :27:27.The tents to be the time horizon of the time it takes to train in as so

:27:28. > :27:31.why put up with perverting the resources into training wind output

:27:32. > :27:36.is going to come when you cease to be Minister of health. I'm glad that

:27:37. > :27:39.this Minister of health, sector of state and fellow ministers have

:27:40. > :27:43.addressed the question. We should recognise it is symptomatic of a

:27:44. > :27:48.wider problem across British business in both the private and

:27:49. > :27:54.public sector that we have a failure -- a culture which does not put

:27:55. > :27:57.enough emphasis on training. It is bizarre that in the universities we

:27:58. > :28:04.allow on limited numbers of people to study art history, media studies,

:28:05. > :28:06.but we restricted the number of people who can train to the nurses

:28:07. > :28:13.when we know we have a desperate need for more. I am agnostic about

:28:14. > :28:22.the best way to finance the training of more nursing recruits. If nurses

:28:23. > :28:27.brother extra costs it will have to be reflected in their remuneration.

:28:28. > :28:30.The minister told us they will be no worse off so I assume therefore the

:28:31. > :28:37.assumption as they will not have to repay much of their loans. This is

:28:38. > :28:42.somewhat of an artificial future of the public finance rules but it is a

:28:43. > :28:46.future and may be the only way of not borrowing the money from the

:28:47. > :28:51.public ourselves is that the nurses borrow and we write off their loans.

:28:52. > :29:00.In the long run we have to pay nurses enough to recruit, retain and

:29:01. > :29:03.motivate them whatever the financial system, and probably the end of

:29:04. > :29:09.bursaries and placement by loans is the only options. One other issue we

:29:10. > :29:13.should look at is that I think there are 200,000 trained nurses in this

:29:14. > :29:16.country who maintain themselves on the register at their own expense

:29:17. > :29:22.and are not currently working in the NHS or elsewhere but who have taken

:29:23. > :29:26.time off to raise a family and I thinking perhaps some of coming

:29:27. > :29:29.back. We must be much more flexible and creative in providing patterns

:29:30. > :29:35.of work which meet their family needs to bring back those trained

:29:36. > :29:38.and valuable and caring and experienced people into the health

:29:39. > :29:42.service and that will help meet the needs of the health service, as the

:29:43. > :29:47.Government is trying to do sensibly and wisely in the measures it has

:29:48. > :29:56.brought before us to replace bursaries with loans. I'm grateful

:29:57. > :30:02.for the opportunity to contribute to today's important debate. It is the

:30:03. > :30:07.second time I have raised concerns about the Government's plans to

:30:08. > :30:15.scrap NHS bursaries in favour of loans for nursing, midwifery and

:30:16. > :30:24.Allied health profession students. Following on from a debate in

:30:25. > :30:28.January I do not propose to reiterate my previous arguments,

:30:29. > :30:31.instead I just intend to make a feud brief observations about the

:30:32. > :30:37.Government's proposals. They have been roundly condemned, as it has

:30:38. > :30:41.been said by students, trade unions and professional bodies alike, and

:30:42. > :30:47.described by one of these, the Royal College of Nursing, as high risk. To

:30:48. > :30:52.my mind, these proposals are high risk because they take a significant

:30:53. > :30:55.gamble with the future sustainability of the NHS workforce.

:30:56. > :31:01.There are several reasons for this. First they have the potential to

:31:02. > :31:05.deter many committed and talented prospective students from pursuing

:31:06. > :31:10.nursing, midwifery and Allied health professions degrees altogether due

:31:11. > :31:15.primarily to concerns over the huge level of debt associated with the

:31:16. > :31:19.change to a loans based system. This is particularly true for more debt

:31:20. > :31:31.averse mid-tier students who may have young families -- mature

:31:32. > :31:34.students. There is also a considerable problem with

:31:35. > :31:37.recruitment and retention of staff in the NHS and the Government's

:31:38. > :31:45.plans are likely to exacerbate the problem further and impact adversely

:31:46. > :31:48.on the future security of NHS workforce, at a time when we have an

:31:49. > :31:52.ageing and increasing population which will necessitate more front

:31:53. > :31:58.line health care professionals going forward. Second, the proposal is to

:31:59. > :32:02.not take into consideration the fact that nursing, midwifery and Allied

:32:03. > :32:08.health profession courses are very different to most other arts and

:32:09. > :32:11.science degrees. These courses are much longer with shorter holidays

:32:12. > :32:16.and often fewer opportunities for students to supplement their income.

:32:17. > :32:19.As they are required to spend a significant amount of their time

:32:20. > :32:24.working with patients in clinical practice with a requirement to work

:32:25. > :32:29.regular and longer evening and weekend shifts as standard. The

:32:30. > :32:33.Government proposals will effectively mean these students, the

:32:34. > :32:35.individuals who keep our awards running and are involved in

:32:36. > :32:42.life-and-death decisions on a daily basis, are forced to pay for the

:32:43. > :32:46.privilege of undertaking often physically and emotionally demanding

:32:47. > :32:51.work in the NHS. Third, they seek to replace the bursary system that has

:32:52. > :32:55.for some considerable time fostered strong and enduring links between

:32:56. > :33:00.health care students and the NHS that begins right from the start of

:33:01. > :33:05.the course. I severing that link, as the Government propose to do, they

:33:06. > :33:11.risk reducing the student loyalty to and the attractiveness of the NHS as

:33:12. > :33:15.a potential future employer. These are a few of the reasons why the

:33:16. > :33:19.Government's plans are high risk. There are many more, some of which

:33:20. > :33:25.have been eloquently articulated by others in the House today. I

:33:26. > :33:28.conclude by urging ministers to drop their proposals and instead work

:33:29. > :33:32.with trade unions, professional bodies and, most importantly, those

:33:33. > :33:39.dedicated individuals who work within the NHS, nurses, midwives,

:33:40. > :33:45.physiotherapists, speech and language therapists, occupational

:33:46. > :33:48.therapists, dieticians, radiographers, chiropodists and

:33:49. > :33:55.podiatrists, to find a fairer and more sustainable and effective

:33:56. > :33:59.funding solution. Can I start by declaring my interest is a member of

:34:00. > :34:17.a health care profession allied to nursing?

:34:18. > :34:27.Tens of thousands of people every year. Despite the comments made by

:34:28. > :34:35.some Honourable members, these are good high-quality applicants. I

:34:36. > :34:39.looked up the entry requirements for the three universities accepting

:34:40. > :34:43.candidates onto general nursing degree courses for adults in the

:34:44. > :34:49.South West at Bournemouth, the University of the West of England

:34:50. > :34:55.and Plymouth. The typical offer for those schools is 300 UCAS points,

:34:56. > :35:01.that is three B grades at A-level. So it is not, as some on Honourable

:35:02. > :35:08.members suggested is the case, that there is a shortage of academically

:35:09. > :35:14.well-qualified, qualified in every way, applicants. There are many

:35:15. > :35:18.young women who wish to study nursing through our being turned

:35:19. > :35:24.away. It is a double tragedy, isn't it? We have a gross shortage of

:35:25. > :35:28.nurses in this country. Nothing I have heard from the benches opposite

:35:29. > :35:32.gives me any confidence that they have any sort of plan as to how we

:35:33. > :35:40.had to satisfy those two imperatives of allowing those who want to study

:35:41. > :35:47.nursing to do so and to plug up the shortage we have in the National

:35:48. > :35:51.Health Service. At the moment we are only able to accommodate because

:35:52. > :35:55.nurses from overseas are prepared to come here. Nurses very often from

:35:56. > :36:02.countries that can scarce do without them. Historically, of course,

:36:03. > :36:08.student nurses have been an intrinsic part of the NHS workforce.

:36:09. > :36:13.My Honourable Friend, the Member from top -- for Totnes, will

:36:14. > :36:17.remember, as do I, that they were essential to the working of all

:36:18. > :36:22.would. Some of the points by members opposite revolve around this point.

:36:23. > :36:26.The question is whether in this day and age we are still heavily reliant

:36:27. > :36:29.upon that workforce for proper functioning of hospital wards

:36:30. > :36:36.because if that is the case, there is a good case to be made for that

:36:37. > :36:40.in the bursary arrangements we make for student nurses because it is

:36:41. > :36:46.simply not right to expect them to do service work and for there not to

:36:47. > :36:50.be compensated in some way for doing that. I hope as part of that

:36:51. > :36:57.consultation that strand of thought will be taken up. The fact remains

:36:58. > :37:01.that as far as project 2000 in the 1990s, the nursing profession itself

:37:02. > :37:05.decided it would move away from a hospital based training structure to

:37:06. > :37:08.one based around universities. This was driven by the profession itself.

:37:09. > :37:14.I think the debate we are having today is part of the continuum of

:37:15. > :37:21.that process, the process by which nurses become graduates, in exactly

:37:22. > :37:27.the same way as any other graduate preparing, for example, to teach in

:37:28. > :37:32.schools. I think it is very potent that when we designed the finances

:37:33. > :37:38.around student nurses, we of course understand the difference between a

:37:39. > :37:42.nursing degree course and a normal, as it were, degree course, but also

:37:43. > :37:51.acts that this is a graduate profession and that it is not right,

:37:52. > :37:53.as the Honourable Lady "Trying to do, to distinguish between graduates

:37:54. > :38:07.and say one is more worthy than another. She may have a view of the

:38:08. > :38:18.graduates. I think we start on a difficult path if we try to hold up

:38:19. > :38:21.one graduate as superior to others. That is difficult to sustain. I

:38:22. > :38:26.support the notion of a nursing associate. I am old enough to

:38:27. > :38:32.remember is to enrolled nurses, who had not satisfied the entry criteria

:38:33. > :38:37.for a course leading to state registration but wanted to be

:38:38. > :38:42.members of a caring occupation. Nursing associates will not be as

:38:43. > :38:48.RNs revisited because we now live in a different age. But there is surely

:38:49. > :38:54.a place within our NHS for a group of people who may not want the

:38:55. > :38:59.academic rigour that goes with a nursing degree or at that stage in

:39:00. > :39:02.their lives be fitted for it, but nevertheless, want to nurse, to

:39:03. > :39:13.enter a plea hands-on caring occupation. This is an important

:39:14. > :39:20.difference, where sen suffered so badly. There must be sufficiently

:39:21. > :39:26.impervious system to allow people, if they have the skill set, to be

:39:27. > :39:34.able to enter a nursing stream. It was a tragedy that so many qualified

:39:35. > :39:40.as RNs were not able to develop their careers. I hope as we design

:39:41. > :39:50.the future for nursing we keep that in mind. A few Honourable members

:39:51. > :39:56.have made comments on planning. It has been abysmal. We need to do

:39:57. > :40:06.better in the future. For example we need to avoid unintentional

:40:07. > :40:13.consequences. We need to ensure the ?21,000 threshold does not mean

:40:14. > :40:16.people are inclined to avoid it by working part-time where they might

:40:17. > :40:24.otherwise work more full-time hours. That would be an overall this

:40:25. > :40:31.service to the workforce. We need to understand that the need to create

:40:32. > :40:34.10,000 places must not be denuded by offering these places to applicants

:40:35. > :40:43.from overseas because that would then not be in the interest of our

:40:44. > :40:48.NHS. We need to understand that nursing graduates may be tempted to

:40:49. > :40:53.migrate as a result of this introduction of fees. So I would ask

:40:54. > :40:58.the Minister in his consultation to think of all the unintended

:40:59. > :41:02.consequences which may develop this general historical tradition in this

:41:03. > :41:08.country that we have of doing health workforce planning so abysmally

:41:09. > :41:11.badly. It is a pleasure to follow the thoughtful contribution from the

:41:12. > :41:18.Member for South West Wiltshire who draws attention to workforce

:41:19. > :41:24.planning which is clearly very challenging for those doing it or

:41:25. > :41:27.not doing it. The recent inspection of North Lincolnshire hospital trust

:41:28. > :41:35.exposed issues of real concern around staffing levels. The

:41:36. > :41:40.challenges of securing a sufficient nurses and other medical staff has

:41:41. > :41:45.become a constant theme of my conversations with the trust since

:41:46. > :41:49.2010. Attracting, securing and retaining staff is a consistent

:41:50. > :41:54.challenge, and the Scunthorpe Hospital is no different to many

:41:55. > :41:59.other hospitals around the country. The more I have got involved in it,

:42:00. > :42:05.the more I have thought that locally designed solutions would have a role

:42:06. > :42:10.in this, and talking to health education in England, it is

:42:11. > :42:12.disappointing that they cannot do more to support health care

:42:13. > :42:18.assistants, for instance, growing into nurses within the local patch,

:42:19. > :42:24.because they are clearly a potential resource. So there are lots of

:42:25. > :42:30.issues about recruiting, training and retaining, as the Member for

:42:31. > :42:35.Hitchin Harpenden said, and making sure, as the Member for Morecambe

:42:36. > :42:39.and loons Dale said, if we lose 4000 nurses year, how do we keep them.

:42:40. > :42:49.That is a big issue as well as how we recruit and retain them. In

:42:50. > :42:53.Scunthorpe... I give way. Just to clarify, we are not losing 3000

:42:54. > :42:58.nurses a year, we are losing 3000 applicants to be nurses per year. I

:42:59. > :43:00.thank the Honourable Member for his intervention but there are many

:43:01. > :43:05.members being lost -- nurses being lost to the system as well which is

:43:06. > :43:09.a clear issue and one in which his comments highlighted. In essence in

:43:10. > :43:13.Scunthorpe we are having to recruit from other areas, Spain and Portugal

:43:14. > :43:17.and elsewhere in the world, and ours has been pointed out, though helping

:43:18. > :43:21.and supporting us, this has impacts on those areas of the globe where

:43:22. > :43:28.those nurses are being recruited from. I would like to quote from a

:43:29. > :43:31.young student nurse who is a constituent, her words, because in

:43:32. > :43:39.some way they capture the comments people are making to us from around

:43:40. > :43:43.the country. Katie May Taylor says, I am a first-year student nurse and

:43:44. > :43:47.when I start placement for three months I will just about be able to

:43:48. > :43:51.govern my travel on top of rent and food. When you see the hours we have

:43:52. > :43:54.to complete and have a fraction of the summer holidays you have to

:43:55. > :43:58.understand why the proposed cuts to the bursary and overall funding to

:43:59. > :44:01.the NHS isn't beneficial. I appreciate to other students getting

:44:02. > :44:06.a monthly bursary must seem a luxury but every penny I get goes towards

:44:07. > :44:10.my rent. It is not pocket money. We are seeing reports that parents are

:44:11. > :44:13.already telling students not to go into nursing and future nurses are

:44:14. > :44:17.being scared out of applying to university. This is deeply

:44:18. > :44:27.saddening. It is such a wonderful course to be a part of Hundal nurses

:44:28. > :44:29.are vital in the care of society's health and maintenance of our NHS.

:44:30. > :44:32.If the bursary is scrapped many student nurses will end up working

:44:33. > :44:36.70 plus hours a week in placements, study time and jobs. Will a student

:44:37. > :44:42.nurse working that many hours make for safe patient care?" Capture very

:44:43. > :44:47.effectively the concerns we have. The Government I think is taking a

:44:48. > :44:51.huge gamble with the NHS workforce and patient safety. There is already

:44:52. > :44:54.a nurse shortage in the NHS and scrapping Bursaries risks making

:44:55. > :44:59.staff recruitment and retention even harder. Student nurses are not like

:45:00. > :45:03.other students. They are required to work in clinical practice throughout

:45:04. > :45:07.their degrees and deserve to be treated differently. The Member

:45:08. > :45:10.force of that -- South West Wiltshire was right in saying it is

:45:11. > :45:14.worth looking at how much they are an intrinsic part of the NHS and if

:45:15. > :45:18.they are that needs to be recognised in this consultation so there are

:45:19. > :45:22.given credit for that and remunerated effectively. The Member

:45:23. > :45:29.for it all had North is right to emphasise that this is the unique

:45:30. > :45:33.position of student nurses. The longer placements make it harder for

:45:34. > :45:37.nurses to get part-time jobs. NHS students are more likely to be

:45:38. > :45:42.women, more likely to come from BME backgrounds are more likely to be

:45:43. > :45:45.mature students. Many nursing students have already completed 1

:45:46. > :45:51.degrees and turned to nursing in their late 20s or early 30s. The

:45:52. > :45:56.average age of the student nurses 28 and many have family or caring

:45:57. > :45:59.commitments. If we look at what has been pointed out in terms of the

:46:00. > :46:04.changes to the higher education funding system in 2012, it has been

:46:05. > :46:08.less favourably received by mature and part-time students. These groups

:46:09. > :46:12.make up a much greater proportion of the nursing, midwifery and allied

:46:13. > :46:17.health student body, so it is worth looking at that part of the evidence

:46:18. > :46:21.as well. Analysis by London Economics estimated that the switch

:46:22. > :46:32.will have a significant negative, -5%, impact on participation at

:46:33. > :46:34.least initially, especially of one person mind the competition of the

:46:35. > :46:36.student health cohort. The Government 's insistence that loans

:46:37. > :46:39.will be repaid at the same time will require repayment rate of 15% above

:46:40. > :46:43.earnings for those students accessing undergraduate and

:46:44. > :46:49.postgraduate loans. This will be in additional to any tax, national

:46:50. > :46:52.insurance and pension contributions due. It is questionable the level of

:46:53. > :46:58.savings to the taxpayer. The Minister wasn't clear on that when I

:46:59. > :47:01.pressed him in his opening remarks. The Department of Health estimates

:47:02. > :47:05.taxpayers will be better off as a result of this switch but it is a

:47:06. > :47:09.short-term calculation. It is less likely these students will repay

:47:10. > :47:13.their loans as graduates in the 30 year repayment period than the

:47:14. > :47:16.general higher education cohort. This is a switching responsibility

:47:17. > :47:21.for funding of the education of health workers from the state to the

:47:22. > :47:31.workforce itself primarily designed to reduce the budget in the

:47:32. > :47:33.Department of Health. We need to know more about what estimate the

:47:34. > :47:36.Government has made of the percentage of second-degree student

:47:37. > :47:38.loans written off after a 30 year period. We need have an estimate for

:47:39. > :47:44.how much the taxpayer will be better off. We need these figures. All the

:47:45. > :47:50.key stakeholders have the same concern, whether the Royal College

:47:51. > :47:54.of midwives, nursing, podiatry, speech and language therapists, even

:47:55. > :47:56.the NHS pay review body has said the removal of the incentive of

:47:57. > :48:00.bursaries could have an unsettling effect on the number and quality of

:48:01. > :48:06.applications for missing training in the early years. There are concerns

:48:07. > :48:14.by all the people closest to what is on. I hope the... The Minister is a

:48:15. > :48:17.good minister, and I hope you will listen and engage with all these

:48:18. > :48:21.bodies who know what they are talking about, they are not making

:48:22. > :48:25.it up, these concerns are real and genuine. The Royal College of

:48:26. > :48:28.Nursing is calling on the Government to work with all stakeholders to

:48:29. > :48:33.create a model of student funding that encourages people to join the

:48:34. > :48:39.profession and recognises the unique aspects of a nursing degree course.

:48:40. > :48:45.I hope the Government will take the opportunity of the strong initiative

:48:46. > :48:48.from the Shadow Health Secretary to work together to come up with a

:48:49. > :48:53.solution that will allow us not only to recruit and retain but also to

:48:54. > :49:05.retain all these professionals into the future.

:49:06. > :49:11.I am grateful for you calling me to speak. It is a pleasure to follow

:49:12. > :49:17.the honourable gentleman of Scunthorpe. He was speaks with

:49:18. > :49:20.credibility and experience. I am more than happy to acknowledge there

:49:21. > :49:34.are many colleagues in the House today with more experience than I

:49:35. > :49:36.have of working in the NHS. My experiences as a customer or a

:49:37. > :49:42.relative of someone who has been treated within the health service. I

:49:43. > :49:47.have to say that, to date, my experience has been nothing but

:49:48. > :49:52.positive. The treatment are NHS continues to deliver to our nation

:49:53. > :50:00.is the best in the world and I think something that we on this side of

:50:01. > :50:08.the House should be proud of. I think a good thing about -- the

:50:09. > :50:18.opposition seemed to think they have a monopoly on caring about the NHS.

:50:19. > :50:23.There are people on our side who care deeply about it. Every Labour

:50:24. > :50:29.Party leader since the Second World War has said we have 24 hours to

:50:30. > :50:33.save the NHS before the tap Tories come into government and they repeat

:50:34. > :50:40.that every single time. I think the truth is when you look at the facts,

:50:41. > :50:42.in 2010 at the general election the Prime Minister was only party leader

:50:43. > :50:50.who entered the election saying would protect the NHS budget when

:50:51. > :50:53.others didn't. In 2015, the Prime Minister was the only party leader

:50:54. > :50:58.that committed to the extra 8 billion think it was at the time

:50:59. > :51:03.support funding for the NHS when other opposition parties would not

:51:04. > :51:12.back that figure. Today, that figure is ?10 billion extra this party is

:51:13. > :51:16.backing the NHS with and delivering services, an aspiration to deliver

:51:17. > :51:23.seven days a week. So people like me who are using the NHS get that

:51:24. > :51:36.service to a very high quality seven days a week. The only way we could

:51:37. > :51:41.deliver the extra funding into the health services by having a credible

:51:42. > :51:46.economic plan which stacks up to scrutiny and I think the British

:51:47. > :51:48.public understand that and what it means to have a credible plan that

:51:49. > :51:55.you can actually deliver when you get into government. There is a lot

:51:56. > :51:57.we agree on. A number of colleagues have outlined where we agree and

:51:58. > :52:03.nobody could deny there is a recognition within government and

:52:04. > :52:07.the opposition that we need more nurses but I think the difference is

:52:08. > :52:13.how we then deliver those extra nurses we require. How do we come up

:52:14. > :52:20.with a credible plan that gives us the extra nurses we all recognise?

:52:21. > :52:25.We have had lots of speeches from all around the chamber, recognising

:52:26. > :52:28.the need to deliver extra nurses but I think it is only on this side

:52:29. > :52:34.whether as a credible plan to actually make that happen. You

:52:35. > :52:36.cannot hope it happens or just state it is going to happen without

:52:37. > :52:40.stating where the extra money is going to come from because the

:52:41. > :52:45.consequence of doing that is to actually withdraw cash from front

:52:46. > :52:53.line services, from those existing doctors and nurses, operation

:52:54. > :52:59.theatres and wards and put that into training if you are not doing that.

:53:00. > :53:02.What I would say is clearly the first thing you should not do if you

:53:03. > :53:08.are going to try to increase the number of nurses running into the

:53:09. > :53:13.NHS is restricted the number you can train. It seems fundamentally

:53:14. > :53:17.obvious to me that the way to lift the number of nurses within the NHS

:53:18. > :53:21.is to lift that artificial cap which we seem to have been left with in

:53:22. > :53:27.terms of the numbers that we are able to train and I would welcome

:53:28. > :53:29.what the Government is doing in considering its options and

:53:30. > :53:33.consulting on this and looking to make sure there is no artificial cap

:53:34. > :53:40.so we can train as many people who have that inspiration to go into the

:53:41. > :53:45.nursing profession. Once again, I want to reiterate my admiration for

:53:46. > :53:51.those people who, clearly, if you leave school and full-time education

:53:52. > :53:55.at school age, you do not enter nursing because you want to be rich,

:53:56. > :54:00.you do it because you care and because you see it as a vocation. I

:54:01. > :54:04.think we must support those people who have that calling, that

:54:05. > :54:08.aspiration to want to care for others and wants to look after those

:54:09. > :54:13.in society who find themselves ill and in need of support. We need to

:54:14. > :54:18.make sure we find a system that allows them to aspire, whatever

:54:19. > :54:21.their background, a system that gives them the ability to go through

:54:22. > :54:27.the training and reached the point where they can follow that vocation.

:54:28. > :54:32.The arguments deployed against what the Government is suggesting

:54:33. > :54:36.appeared to be very similar to what we heard around student loans where

:54:37. > :54:39.we were told that those from a deprived background would be put off

:54:40. > :54:44.and those who came from more challenging areas would not be able

:54:45. > :54:50.to find a way through the system to be able to follow that desire to

:54:51. > :54:56.follow their vocation and I think we must reflect on what happened during

:54:57. > :54:59.those changes to student loans and look at the evidence, and the

:55:00. > :55:04.evidence is that those from challenging background who we were

:55:05. > :55:10.told would not be able to do it, those numbers have gone up and the

:55:11. > :55:15.opposite is true. We must find ourselves at the end of this process

:55:16. > :55:19.with an NHS which can adapt and change goes there is enormous social

:55:20. > :55:26.pressure, particularly as society gets older, the challenge between

:55:27. > :55:31.adult social care and the NHS. We need an NHS able to adapt and change

:55:32. > :55:36.does not win cash is short, we must spend that on front line services

:55:37. > :55:40.on. To us and nurses and drugs that can improve the lives of those

:55:41. > :55:45.people who need the support of the NHS, and I look forward to the

:55:46. > :55:50.consultation. I'll note the team in the health department will -- I know

:55:51. > :55:54.the team in the health Department will look at it. I hope we get to

:55:55. > :56:02.the right place at the end of this with more nurses. I am pleased to

:56:03. > :56:05.hear the member values NHS so highly but he might like to reflect on the

:56:06. > :56:12.fact that the Coalition Government legislated to allow all NHS

:56:13. > :56:16.hospitals to make up to 49% of their money out of private patients and

:56:17. > :56:20.perhaps he will review his opinion of his own party's performance when

:56:21. > :56:23.he starts to see the number of private patients in his own hospital

:56:24. > :56:34.increase and the number of NHS patients decrease. The Royal College

:56:35. > :56:37.of Nursing, and Midwives said abolishing bursaries will break the

:56:38. > :56:41.link between NHS and trainee nurses and I share their concerns because

:56:42. > :56:45.the link is a historic one and I believe the Government proposal is

:56:46. > :56:48.part and parcel of wider changes this government is seeking to make

:56:49. > :56:52.in the culture of the NHS, turning the emphasis away from training

:56:53. > :56:55.people to be part of NHS family, a family in which they can work with

:56:56. > :56:59.dedication throughout their working lives, to the provision of training

:57:00. > :57:04.for individuals to work in a fragmented health marketplace. If

:57:05. > :57:08.these plans go ahead, future nurses may no longer feel the same

:57:09. > :57:11.obligation to work in the NHS and could be more inclined to work

:57:12. > :57:14.abroad or in private hospitals to pay off their debts, and who could

:57:15. > :57:19.blame them? They will have felt that the Government has left them and

:57:20. > :57:26.deserted them. The minister could not tell us what the average

:57:27. > :57:32.repayment would be. Let Unison give him the answer. They say debt

:57:33. > :57:38.repayment will mean, in effect, a pay cut of over ?900 a year. The

:57:39. > :57:43.question arises, will these changes that are people from training to be

:57:44. > :57:52.nurses in the first place? The Royal College of Nursing and other bodies

:57:53. > :57:57.thinks it will. The Government consultation document estimates a

:57:58. > :57:59.trainee nurse taking out the maximum tuition and maintenance loans for

:58:00. > :58:10.three years with graduate with debts of between ?47,712 and ?59,106. Who

:58:11. > :58:15.would want to embark on a lifetime of caring for others with the level

:58:16. > :58:18.of debt that size? This brings us to the concern that these measures will

:58:19. > :58:24.lead to further shortages will stop we are all aware of the shortages in

:58:25. > :58:27.our hospitals. The Coalition Government allowed the number of

:58:28. > :58:34.training places to fall from over 20,000 to just 17,000 in 2011-12.

:58:35. > :58:39.The lowest level since the 1990s. As a result, there were over 8000 fewer

:58:40. > :58:46.nurses trained in 2010 - 15 Parliament compared to 2010-11

:58:47. > :58:50.levels. Nurse numbers have failed to keep pace with demand. According to

:58:51. > :58:59.calculations, the rate of nurses per hundred thousand population has

:59:00. > :59:03.fallen from 679 in 2000 and 92 665. There are concerns the removal of

:59:04. > :59:11.NHS bursaries will only make matters worse, as has been mentioned by my

:59:12. > :59:13.friend the member from Scunthorpe, their NHS independent review body

:59:14. > :59:24.said their removal of the bursary would have on effect on the number

:59:25. > :59:37.of places. The reduction in net pay will make a package... The Secretary

:59:38. > :59:40.of State should focus on that. The Royal College of Nursing is

:59:41. > :59:42.concerned there is also a risk the changes could result in an uneven

:59:43. > :59:47.distribution of students across nursing specialities. Also

:59:48. > :59:53.geographically across the UK. Currently, health education in

:59:54. > :59:57.England commissions student places for four branches of nursing, adult,

:59:58. > :00:01.children, learning is about these and mental health. Without workplace

:00:02. > :00:04.planning centrally there could be insufficient numbers across these

:00:05. > :00:08.branches as some may be more popular than others. There is no indication

:00:09. > :00:16.whether there will be control over which sectors nurses trained for in

:00:17. > :00:20.future or whether it will be dictated by, of course, the market.

:00:21. > :00:26.It could lead to greater shortages than at present. Tuition is

:00:27. > :00:29.currently paid for by health education England. Now students

:00:30. > :00:33.under the current system have to pay tuition fees and they are not means

:00:34. > :00:39.tested. They also receive ?1000 non-means tested grant year, pro

:00:40. > :00:44.rata for part-time students. They also qualify for a maintenance grant

:00:45. > :00:49.or bursary, means tested, where a term lasts longer than 30 weeks and

:00:50. > :00:53.helps with placements. I feel this is the appropriate way to deliver

:00:54. > :00:56.NHS nurse training. If we are to continue to have a state-run public

:00:57. > :01:00.NHS free at the point of need we must continue to provide bursaries

:01:01. > :01:16.for our NHS nurses. It is the least we owe them. If you ask any patient

:01:17. > :01:21.about their experience in hospital, one thing they're sure to talk to

:01:22. > :01:23.you about is nurses who looked after them. They are normally talking

:01:24. > :01:30.about nurses and health care assistants, because patients don't

:01:31. > :01:34.tend to differentiate. We note nurses have far more interaction

:01:35. > :01:39.with patients and doctors so their quality and time is critical to

:01:40. > :01:43.patient experience. It is also critical to their outcomes for

:01:44. > :01:47.agents in hospitals. Good nursing can be the difference between life

:01:48. > :01:53.and death. We have known that since Florence Nightingale. We were

:01:54. > :01:56.reminded of that with the inquiry into Mid Staffordshire and the

:01:57. > :02:05.France's report and from recent search into strokes outcomes or

:02:06. > :02:11.anyone who has looked into Salford Royal and how it has such a good

:02:12. > :02:17.reputation, and much of that is high standards of nursing. So, an

:02:18. > :02:22.excellent NHS which I believe we wanted needs excellent nurses and

:02:23. > :02:28.enough of them. This afternoon, people have spoken about how we need

:02:29. > :02:33.more nurses in the order of maybe 10,000 - 20,000, the numbers range.

:02:34. > :02:41.We also note we need a shift in their skills. We need more mental

:02:42. > :02:46.health nurses. Right now there are not enough nurses in our system and

:02:47. > :02:51.hospitals across the country have vacancies. They are using large

:02:52. > :02:54.numbers of agency staff and international recruitment is very

:02:55. > :02:58.important to many hospitals including those serving my

:02:59. > :03:08.constituents in Kent. I am not confident that more of the same will

:03:09. > :03:10.solve these problems. Nor was the nursing Department of a London

:03:11. > :03:15.University I spoke to about this last year. They said they needed

:03:16. > :03:18.more funding per nurse place to stop the recognised in asking for more

:03:19. > :03:24.money for their nurses it could be taking money away from front-line

:03:25. > :03:29.care in the NHS and that was not a good answer so they were very open

:03:30. > :03:33.to a new funding model. Last summer, the Council of deans of health and

:03:34. > :03:36.universities said the current funding system is no longer working

:03:37. > :03:41.for either students or universities. Universities having to subsidise

:03:42. > :03:46.cost of nursing degrees from other courses and NHS funded students

:03:47. > :03:50.having less to live on than others even though they are often studying

:03:51. > :03:55.longer degrees, more intense degrees with more hours. They are even less

:03:56. > :03:59.able to do other work outside their qualification. We know we need more

:04:00. > :04:04.nurses and their current funding system isn't working.

:04:05. > :04:12.said on the question, then, at how we get more nurses, is the answer

:04:13. > :04:18.better workforce planning? I remember hearing that in 2008-9 when

:04:19. > :04:23.plans were being drawn up the Centre for workforce intelligence. That

:04:24. > :04:27.would be the answer, lots of skills exploits doing fantastic modelling

:04:28. > :04:31.into the future -- skills experts. I was sceptical than because look at

:04:32. > :04:35.the history of the NHS and systems around the world that have

:04:36. > :04:41.centralised planning for the health care workforce, it almost always is

:04:42. > :04:45.wrong, you get periods of oversupply and undersupplied, right now we are

:04:46. > :04:49.in a period of undersupplied with all the knock-on consequences. So

:04:50. > :04:52.doing it better and having more experts sounds great in theory but

:04:53. > :04:57.in practice I think we have seen it doesn't work. So much better answer

:04:58. > :05:05.is to set universities free to offer more places for all those students

:05:06. > :05:09.who want to study nursing, so all those students currently being

:05:10. > :05:16.turned away -- turned away can study nursing, and I would like to see

:05:17. > :05:18.more nursing applicants, particularly as universities do more

:05:19. > :05:22.to make their courses more attractive and work more closely

:05:23. > :05:27.with employers, as to what employers need, and to look at specialist

:05:28. > :05:32.skills and expertise required within nursing, as I mentioned, to meet the

:05:33. > :05:39.needs of the care system we have now and in future. But to do that we

:05:40. > :05:44.must uncouple the funding of nurse training from the NHS. We have to

:05:45. > :05:49.take away this constraint that every pound spent on training and NHS

:05:50. > :05:53.nurse is a pound potentially taken away from funding front line care,

:05:54. > :05:58.which puts such a premium on avoiding access of nurses. I think

:05:59. > :06:02.this is very much the right direction of travel. I also think it

:06:03. > :06:06.is very important to increase maintenance grants to nurses so they

:06:07. > :06:10.are not struggling with their living support as they are at the moment,

:06:11. > :06:15.but they should be more routes into nursing. The nurse associate role is

:06:16. > :06:20.very welcome. An apprenticeship route so nurses can work and train

:06:21. > :06:24.in parallel, which we know is very appealing to more mature students

:06:25. > :06:29.who need an income and also want to be more hands-on during their

:06:30. > :06:35.training and are less appealed to buy university environment. Having

:06:36. > :06:38.worked for some time on the background of health care assistants

:06:39. > :06:42.and wanting to see more recognition given to their role and

:06:43. > :06:46.qualifications, I really recognise the opportunity for them to be

:06:47. > :06:54.supported even more towards becoming qualified nurses. Another thing I

:06:55. > :06:57.think is important is to have a greater investment in continuing

:06:58. > :07:02.professional development for nurses. We know we need a more flexible

:07:03. > :07:06.workforce that can adapt to the demands of the future. Yet one of

:07:07. > :07:10.the things that is so often squeezed in times of financial pressure is

:07:11. > :07:14.the investment in ongoing training and the time given to ongoing

:07:15. > :07:19.training, so let's this is a -- use this as an opportunity to re-shift

:07:20. > :07:23.that balance and re-purpose the workforce as needed to meet the

:07:24. > :07:28.demands and needs of the system. I would also like more attention to be

:07:29. > :07:35.given to the appeal of the Singh career and the experience of all

:07:36. > :07:39.nurses in work -- of the nursing career. Nurses at the front line

:07:40. > :07:44.have told me so many times, this weekend I will beyond my own. The

:07:45. > :07:48.only permanent nurse in this ward. I will work alongside agency nurses

:07:49. > :07:55.who don't know this ward, and it will make it a difficult weekend. We

:07:56. > :08:00.need to put an end to that. The only way we can do that, alongside, of

:08:01. > :08:05.course, the work going on to reduce agency staff, is to increase the

:08:06. > :08:10.numbers of nurses trained to work in the NHS. I am out of time but just

:08:11. > :08:14.to sum up, I think the direction of travel is right, but also let's make

:08:15. > :08:23.sure we get the details right on how this is put into practice. I am

:08:24. > :08:28.pleased to contribute to today's debate. I only hope my scratchy

:08:29. > :08:35.throat will hold out. My apologies to colleagues. My contribution marks

:08:36. > :08:39.the third occasion I have spoken on this issue and called on the

:08:40. > :08:46.Government to keep the NHS bursary for students in England studying to

:08:47. > :08:49.become the next generation of Nudd -- nurses, midwives and allied

:08:50. > :08:54.health professionals. The bursary is essential to complete a nursing

:08:55. > :08:59.degree. The Royal colleges say so, but perhaps more importantly my

:09:00. > :09:04.sister says so. Luckily for student nurses in Scotland the SNP also says

:09:05. > :09:07.so. I am aware that this debate has been about the removal of the

:09:08. > :09:14.bursary to students in England but the SNP say they have a job in this

:09:15. > :09:18.place fighting Tory austerity. The Scottish Government will continue to

:09:19. > :09:23.supply it might provide bursaries and we want the same support for all

:09:24. > :09:27.nursing students regardless of where they study. As well as receiving

:09:28. > :09:31.representations from my sister and have also met nursing students based

:09:32. > :09:36.at my local university, the University of the West of Scotland.

:09:37. > :09:40.It helps train and educate 4000 nursing students, one of the largest

:09:41. > :09:44.cohorts in Scotland. It does a fantastic job equipped in tomorrow

:09:45. > :09:54.-- equipping tomorrow's workers with the skills they need. I want to

:09:55. > :09:58.propose the question on this issue to the Chancellor -- I proposed. His

:09:59. > :10:04.answer did not provide the commitment nursing students were

:10:05. > :10:09.demanding but after a few months of contemplation I urged the Chancellor

:10:10. > :10:16.to consider their plans to abandon the bursary. The Royal College of

:10:17. > :10:20.Nursing, which comprises 30,000 members, have made representation to

:10:21. > :10:24.the SNP outlining the opposition to the Government's plans. It is not

:10:25. > :10:29.only nurses and students in England urging the Government to abandon

:10:30. > :10:32.plans but the vast majority of medical professionals, and students

:10:33. > :10:37.and workers in Scotland are also demanding the bursary packages

:10:38. > :10:39.retained. It is important to understand why nursing students

:10:40. > :10:44.receive a different funding settlement compared to other

:10:45. > :10:49.students. I know only too well the long hours my sister studied at

:10:50. > :10:56.University. Not all students work such long hours and nurses spent

:10:57. > :11:02.time on the ward working with fully qualified nurses. I'd know how much

:11:03. > :11:06.time they spend working and they also put through their paces on the

:11:07. > :11:09.ward. Replacing the bursary with alone will effectively means

:11:10. > :11:15.students are paying the Government for the privilege of working while

:11:16. > :11:20.on placement. The majority of nursing students are older and

:11:21. > :11:24.typically women, the average age being 29 years old. Many of these

:11:25. > :11:30.will have caring responsibilities. In addition it is not uncommon for

:11:31. > :11:33.them, despite the demands of the course, to also work part-time

:11:34. > :11:38.alongside studies. It is only proper that they have a funding settlement

:11:39. > :11:47.which meets their circumstances. As we have heard, Unison, the NUS, the

:11:48. > :11:50.Royal College of midwives and others all state that this new system will

:11:51. > :12:01.lead to students Achaemenid Singh ?51,000 of debt -- accumulating.

:12:02. > :12:05.Let's be clear, the removal of the bursary will be detrimental to

:12:06. > :12:09.people wanting to study. We should instead encourage people from all

:12:10. > :12:13.backgrounds to consider a career in the NHS. This point was made by the

:12:14. > :12:17.Royal College of midwives when they said the cuts are likely to deter

:12:18. > :12:33.any potential student from entering the profession which is God not --

:12:34. > :12:37.not good news for the profession. The Chancellor and Health Secretary

:12:38. > :12:40.claimed the current system is unaffordable. I disagree and would

:12:41. > :12:44.encourage them to take guidance from the Scottish Government on how to

:12:45. > :12:49.support the health workers of tomorrow. In contrast to the UK

:12:50. > :12:54.Government desire to abolish bursaries, the Scottish Government

:12:55. > :12:58.will provide for ?6,500 to students. The UK Government previously

:12:59. > :13:03.operated a means tested system. The Scottish Government will continue to

:13:04. > :13:08.offer it without means testing. Whereas the UK Government sanctions

:13:09. > :13:11.charges of up to ?9,000 a year for university education, the Scottish

:13:12. > :13:15.Government preserve the right of a free education. The UK Government

:13:16. > :13:19.works against the health service and educational partners the Scottish

:13:20. > :13:23.Government works in partnership with them to improve education and health

:13:24. > :13:28.services that exist in Scotland. There are 41% more qualified nurses

:13:29. > :13:33.and midwives in Scotland than anywhere else in the UK but despite

:13:34. > :13:37.this we have increased numbers of students by 5.6% in the next

:13:38. > :13:42.academic year with a thousand extra nurses in training every year

:13:43. > :13:45.compared to the previous. The Government needs to stop attacking

:13:46. > :13:49.the health service and those who work in it. If the Prime Minister is

:13:50. > :13:53.serious about one nation Government he needs to engage with the concerns

:13:54. > :14:01.raised by nursing students and others across the and university

:14:02. > :14:06.sector. -- health and university sector. By also congratulate the

:14:07. > :14:12.Shadow health team on securing this debate. A few weeks ago I found

:14:13. > :14:16.myself in a packed lecture theatre in Cambridge, invited there by a

:14:17. > :14:19.student nurse, and the room was packed full of her colleagues. They

:14:20. > :14:23.were angry, not for themselves, but for those who in years ahead should

:14:24. > :14:29.follow in their footsteps, because they are convinced, absolutely sure,

:14:30. > :14:34.but if the Government's changes go ahead, people like them will not do

:14:35. > :14:39.as they have done, when the embarking on the training so

:14:40. > :14:42.essential to the future of our NHS. They are rightly furious. There

:14:43. > :14:45.seems to be a complete misunderstanding about how different

:14:46. > :14:51.they are as a cohort from other students and how different their

:14:52. > :14:55.courses are from other courses, a failure to understand how their

:14:56. > :14:59.courses about being at work, sometimes as they explain to me

:15:00. > :15:02.going way beyond the call of duty, being at work, not just on a course.

:15:03. > :15:07.Their testimonies and those of others across the country speak

:15:08. > :15:11.volumes, and I pay tribute to the Royal College of Nursing for putting

:15:12. > :15:15.together hundreds of these stories. I will say in directly to the

:15:16. > :15:19.Minister, what makes him so sure that he knows so much better than

:15:20. > :15:23.all these people who are actually doing it and actually know and

:15:24. > :15:30.understand the choices people in their situation are likely to make?

:15:31. > :15:34.Before being elected, I work for Unison and met many student nurses.

:15:35. > :15:38.The Government simply fails to understand the simple truth that

:15:39. > :15:42.nursing, midwifery and allied health care students are not like other

:15:43. > :15:45.students. One important fundamental difference lies in the requirement

:15:46. > :15:49.health care students spend a significant proportion of their

:15:50. > :15:53.studies on clinical placement. The RCN point out as others have done,

:15:54. > :15:57.they are not like other students. 50% of their time is spent in

:15:58. > :16:00.clinical practice working directly with patients and their families,

:16:01. > :16:06.and they have a longer academic year. They must spend a minimum 2300

:16:07. > :16:14.hours on clinical placement during their studies, working, providing

:16:15. > :16:16.care, making a vital conservation to the health service, also including

:16:17. > :16:18.early shifts, night and weekend shifts. In practice the funding

:16:19. > :16:22.changes will charge students to go to work and do a job desperately

:16:23. > :16:25.needed. Furthermore it is clear these changes are being rushed

:16:26. > :16:29.through without proper consideration of the consequences. The Government

:16:30. > :16:34.says it will create 10,000 new nursing, midwifery and allied health

:16:35. > :16:37.degree places which would be welcome if it happened, particularly when

:16:38. > :16:42.agency staff are plugging the gap and draining NHS finances. It has

:16:43. > :16:46.not been made clear that there are resources in place to support

:16:47. > :16:51.students in clinical settings. Put simply, do the placements exist? The

:16:52. > :16:54.concern is linked to a wider issue about the uncovering of education

:16:55. > :16:58.commissioning and workforce planning. The potential consequences

:16:59. > :17:01.of a disconnection between University recruitment and NHS

:17:02. > :17:05.workforce planning must be addressed and I would welcome the Minister's

:17:06. > :17:13.comments on the wrist this uncoupling poses on the NHS's

:17:14. > :17:17.ability to be the best for planning workforce requirements. One of the

:17:18. > :17:22.more interesting aspects of the Government's proposals is to

:17:23. > :17:26.increase routes from nondegree courses. Does he agree with me that

:17:27. > :17:30.the Government ought to tread carefully given the report in the

:17:31. > :17:35.Lancet in February 20 14th that suggested across nine European

:17:36. > :17:40.countries, every 10% increase and the number of bachelors degree

:17:41. > :17:44.educated nurses is associated with a 7% decline in patient mortality.

:17:45. > :17:48.Even on the more positive aspects of the Government proposals they ought

:17:49. > :17:52.read more carefully. I hope this point is one the Minister will

:17:53. > :17:55.address. There are other ways nursing and midwifery and allied

:17:56. > :18:08.health students are different. They are

:18:09. > :18:12.more likely to be older, to be women, to come from BME backgrounds,

:18:13. > :18:14.to have children and already have a first degree, and the average age is

:18:15. > :18:17.28. These characteristics matter because they increase the likelihood

:18:18. > :18:18.that funding changes will be a disincentive to people taking

:18:19. > :18:21.degrees. The Royal College of midwives point out that the removal

:18:22. > :18:23.of bursaries mean women with children and those who have a first

:18:24. > :18:28.degree will be hit particularly hard. Many already make up a large

:18:29. > :18:36.proportion of our current midwifery student base.

:18:37. > :18:45.It is hardly likely they will be enthusiastic about the prospect of

:18:46. > :18:53.taking on an additional debt. The starting salary for nurses is only

:18:54. > :18:58.?21,000 a year. Replacing NHS bursaries with loans will mean a pay

:18:59. > :19:03.cut of over ?900 a year for a nurses, midwife or health

:19:04. > :19:10.professional. We know that debt particularly deters poorer students,

:19:11. > :19:17.those who are more likely to find interim nursing and midwifery.

:19:18. > :19:25.People can best explain this and the Royal College of nurses has put this

:19:26. > :19:32.together in a huge blue book. I really commend it to the Minister.

:19:33. > :19:36.Let me conclude by returning to that room of students in Cambridge and

:19:37. > :19:41.give some of those of voice. Sarah from Cambridge says, I would not

:19:42. > :19:45.have survived without my bursary. A nurse's salary is poor and have debt

:19:46. > :19:50.on top is terrible. Amanda says, I'm adult learner with a husband and two

:19:51. > :19:54.children. I had my children young so was unable to fulfil a degree. If I

:19:55. > :19:59.was to have debt at the end, it would not have been worth my while.

:20:00. > :20:07.I fear it will put up adult learners entering into the degree programme

:20:08. > :20:09.which will mean the NHS is losing out on valuable decent people who

:20:10. > :20:13.would make fantastic nurses. And Maria says, we are in danger of

:20:14. > :20:18.preventing mature students from entering training. This will mean

:20:19. > :20:23.the NHS loses the chance of recruiting a great resource

:20:24. > :20:27.potential nurses. Another Sarah says, I am really disappointed by

:20:28. > :20:31.this change. Nursing is not like any other profession so should be

:20:32. > :20:36.treated uniquely. It is tough being a nursing student and the proposed

:20:37. > :20:40.bursary changes should be considered carefully to respect the work,

:20:41. > :20:45.commitment and enthusiasm of student nurses. She puts it very well.

:20:46. > :20:55.Perhaps if the government would listen to me, they will at least

:20:56. > :21:01.listen to her. -- will not. It's been a very high quality debate

:21:02. > :21:05.today and I do have sympathy for the Minister responding because we all

:21:06. > :21:10.know that this policy was not devised in his department was was

:21:11. > :21:15.put together somewhere in the Treasury borrowing the Chancellor's

:21:16. > :21:19.?2 billion raid. It seems that this is a case of cut first and ask

:21:20. > :21:24.questions later. I say that because in just two lines of the Autumn

:21:25. > :21:27.Statement with no consultation or evidence, this government has

:21:28. > :21:32.committed itself to a huge gamble in the future of the NHS workforce and

:21:33. > :21:37.patient safety. We have had a comprehensive debate among pay

:21:38. > :21:41.tribute to my honourable friend the leading this campaign and his record

:21:42. > :21:47.in this area is unparalleled. He highlighted expertly the many

:21:48. > :21:51.student nurses are innate different position to other students and the

:21:52. > :21:55.concerns he and other members have about the effect these proposals

:21:56. > :21:57.will have on future numbers. Other members contributed in a similar

:21:58. > :22:05.vein including my honourable friend 's. The honourable member for

:22:06. > :22:08.Scunthorpe pressed the Minister without reply about what estimate

:22:09. > :22:13.has been made about the number of loans that will be off. I trust and

:22:14. > :22:17.we hear the answer to that, the Minister will be able to fill us in

:22:18. > :22:25.with details. We also heard from my honourable friend the Wirral West

:22:26. > :22:29.who came to this place with a great reputation and spoke with great

:22:30. > :22:33.authority. My honourable friend the member for Cambridge has spoken and

:22:34. > :22:36.he asked a very pertinent question about the capacity of the health

:22:37. > :22:41.service to take on these extra students. We also had an important

:22:42. > :22:45.contribution from the chair of the health Select Committee and I hope

:22:46. > :22:51.the Minister responds to the real concerns that she raised. Mr Deputy

:22:52. > :22:54.Speaker, the government is presiding over the worst accident and

:22:55. > :23:03.emergency figures since records began. There is a crisis and morale

:23:04. > :23:06.against the workforce with a Secretary of State to belligerent to

:23:07. > :23:11.listen. They have alienated generation of junior doctors and now

:23:12. > :23:16.they risk doing the same that our future nurses and midwives. As well

:23:17. > :23:20.as many other health professionals, why is this government looking to

:23:21. > :23:23.and settled the huge section of our NHS workforce at a time when

:23:24. > :23:29.goodwill is more important than ever? We have a number of concerns

:23:30. > :23:33.with this policy, many of which have been by honourable members today,

:23:34. > :23:36.and the government has yet to give any credible answer. Let us look at

:23:37. > :23:40.the actual problem these proposals will address. But the black created

:23:41. > :23:47.by the Chancellor but the shortage of nurses in NHS. This government is

:23:48. > :23:52.entirely responsible for that shortage because it decided to

:23:53. > :23:56.reduce nurse training places. If it had maintained level set by the last

:23:57. > :24:01.Labour government, we would have had 8000 more nurses trained in the last

:24:02. > :24:09.Parliament alone so when we hear about is agency costs and staffing

:24:10. > :24:13.shortages, it's not the nurses, trusts, patients but this

:24:14. > :24:22.government's mishandling of the NHS. This proposal will deliver 10,000

:24:23. > :24:26.more nurses, midwives and other health professionals at best. When

:24:27. > :24:31.the government says this proposal could deliver that, they really are

:24:32. > :24:36.looking at the glass half full. That figure of 10,000 extra comes with so

:24:37. > :24:41.many caveats and warning that if it were a used car, I would not even

:24:42. > :24:46.taken a test drive. The government's own assessment acknowledges there

:24:47. > :24:50.could be adverse impacts on parents and carers and childcare costs could

:24:51. > :24:53.have a significant influence on participation. It's worth picking up

:24:54. > :24:58.a few quotes from the government's own document to get a flavour of

:24:59. > :25:03.just how flaky this old proposal is. It says that example, the precise

:25:04. > :25:08.impact is difficult to estimate with certainty. Behavioural change is

:25:09. > :25:13.uncertain. There may be uncertainty over applications in the short term.

:25:14. > :25:16.There is no robust set of information to make this assessment.

:25:17. > :25:20.In other words, the government says they have done an assessment they

:25:21. > :25:25.have no idea what the impact of the policy will be. If that doesn't

:25:26. > :25:29.amount to a huge gamble, I don't know what does. But if the

:25:30. > :25:32.government won't take heed of its own assessment, it might listen to

:25:33. > :25:44.the Royal College of Nursing which is said there is a

:25:45. > :25:48.risk of a concern than that. They are particularly concerned about the

:25:49. > :25:51.impact on which all students and as we have heard during the debate, the

:25:52. > :25:55.average age of a student nurses said it is 28. The changes will act as a

:25:56. > :26:00.disincentive for some students like mature students or those from lower

:26:01. > :26:03.income backgrounds. Research shows that nine out of ten student nurses

:26:04. > :26:07.said they would not have gone into training if the new proposals have

:26:08. > :26:12.been in place. That is a trivial number. Even if the numbers turn out

:26:13. > :26:15.only be half that amount, the implications for the NHS would be

:26:16. > :26:23.catastrophic, so where is the evidence to reassure us that won't

:26:24. > :26:27.happen? There isn't any. The Minister knows he is not comparing

:26:28. > :26:33.like with like and any evidence of the mature student experience does

:26:34. > :26:36.not support his case. Higher education statistics say which all

:26:37. > :26:41.students between 20112015, the number has fallen by 17%. There's

:26:42. > :26:47.big play about what this policy means for all nurses. Due to the

:26:48. > :26:51.decision of the government is freeze the student loan repayment

:26:52. > :26:55.threshold, or future nurses are facing a real terms pay cut.

:26:56. > :27:01.According to Unison, based upon current salaries, the average health

:27:02. > :27:07.professional will lose ?900 a year to meet their debt repayments. Start

:27:08. > :27:10.retention is a huge issue for all NHS staff. As the honourable member

:27:11. > :27:15.rightly pointed out, the government's record and this is Paul

:27:16. > :27:24.and sadly nurses with extra debt will only make the matter worse. I

:27:25. > :27:30.didn't say it was poor at all. I pointed out we needed reform, which

:27:31. > :27:37.is something we're here to today. I think we have had a very good

:27:38. > :27:41.constructive debate today. I think the honourable member, if he is

:27:42. > :27:49.stating facts, that says more about the fact the way they were presented

:27:50. > :27:56.the government. Let's be clear. This is a debt that these nurses are

:27:57. > :28:02.never likely to pay off. Nurses will graduate with debts of ?50 --

:28:03. > :28:07.60,000. The many mature students will find themselves with ?100,000

:28:08. > :28:11.worth of debt. Let's repeat that figure. Here we are as a country,

:28:12. > :28:16.looking down the barrel of the policy that will sadly nurses with a

:28:17. > :28:20.6-figure debt, not bankers, lawyers but people who will own a fraction

:28:21. > :28:23.of that keeping the NHS going. We already have the highest level of

:28:24. > :28:26.student debt in the English-speaking world which is not a record we

:28:27. > :28:30.should be proud of in these proposals will only make matters

:28:31. > :28:35.worse but it would be an error to put nurses in the same category as

:28:36. > :28:37.other students. Not only are their courses longer each year, meaning

:28:38. > :28:41.they have less opportunity than other students to work while they

:28:42. > :28:46.study, they're also required to spend 50% of their time working in

:28:47. > :28:54.clinical practice. This requires real commitment of 2300 hours at

:28:55. > :28:57.least doing difficult jobs at anti-social times and now this

:28:58. > :29:01.government is asking people to pay for the privilege of doing that.

:29:02. > :29:06.This policy team is like some kind of perverse extension of workfare.

:29:07. > :29:12.Last year, there were unfilled places in London. The government

:29:13. > :29:17.needs to raise its game to improve retention levels among nurses. It

:29:18. > :29:21.has been getting worse. We saw nearly 9% of nurses leave. Some may

:29:22. > :29:27.have gone to work elsewhere in the NHS but many have left altogether so

:29:28. > :29:31.surely sorting that out will be more effective to our problems than a

:29:32. > :29:35.punt on a trusted future plan? There appears to be no dialogue with

:29:36. > :29:40.providers who seem unaware of the oncoming rush. Each student nurses

:29:41. > :29:45.to be clinically assessed by a registered nurse but there appears

:29:46. > :29:49.to be no assessment made to take on these extra responsibilities. With

:29:50. > :29:53.all these flaws, it's clear to see this policy was announced with no

:29:54. > :29:58.consultation, no engagement with the sector and with no evidence basis.

:29:59. > :30:01.With such a high degree of uncertainty, surely the sensible

:30:02. > :30:06.thing would be to consult on the principle before embarking on the

:30:07. > :30:09.policy. Not this government, it knows best, and I say that despite

:30:10. > :30:13.the fact the government is not even seem to know what its own record is

:30:14. > :30:16.in this area. When I asked the minister a simple question on how

:30:17. > :30:20.many nurses are qualified in the last five years, I received the

:30:21. > :30:23.following response: the Department does not hold information on the

:30:24. > :30:28.number of nurses who qualified in the last five years. What an

:30:29. > :30:34.absolute shambles! You would think with such a gap, the government

:30:35. > :30:38.would have gone out of its way to undertake a full consultation and

:30:39. > :30:44.seek evidence before announcing the policy, but no. The Royal College of

:30:45. > :30:50.midwives, nursing, podiatry and speech and language therapists, all

:30:51. > :30:53.respected institutions, not one of them was asked to formally input

:30:54. > :30:56.into this policy before it was announced contrary to what the

:30:57. > :31:04.minister said today. When he was asked who he did consult, he said,

:31:05. > :31:07.there has been consultation with leading nursing professionals, not

:31:08. > :31:11.the Royal colleges. I have asked the Minister to sell us exactly who he

:31:12. > :31:16.did consult with and to publish a copy with the resource advice he

:31:17. > :31:21.received in the library. Let us not pretend that now this consultation

:31:22. > :31:25.has been published, it is meaningful on the principle or detail of the

:31:26. > :31:29.proposals. It simply asks a few technical questions on how to

:31:30. > :31:34.implement changes. You can have any colour you want as long as it is

:31:35. > :31:40.black. It is frankly in a sop to the public, patience and profession.

:31:41. > :31:43.This government's proposal should be withdrawn and they should commit to

:31:44. > :31:46.a full consultation on how to support available student nurses,

:31:47. > :31:52.how to increase the number of nurses in the NHS and how to improve

:31:53. > :31:57.retention levels. I urge all members who care about the future of our

:31:58. > :32:00.health service, who have concerns about what effect these proposals

:32:01. > :32:03.will have you are not prepared to gamble recklessly with our nurses to

:32:04. > :32:07.send a clear message to the government that it's time to think

:32:08. > :32:21.again. I commend this motion to the House. Thank you. And you have been

:32:22. > :32:29.where? Oh, sorry. It's not as good as real life and being on the floor

:32:30. > :32:33.of the Chamber. Mr Deputy Speaker, thank you very much for the

:32:34. > :32:37.opportunity to respond to the debate and I thank the honourable lady for

:32:38. > :32:38.raising this important question of the development of the expansion of

:32:39. > :32:48.nurse Can I thank all the award has been a

:32:49. > :32:52.very good debate and a good set of discussions? Informed on various

:32:53. > :32:55.occasions by those who have close connections to the NHS. Either

:32:56. > :33:00.personally or through family. I want to begin by paying tribute to all

:33:01. > :33:05.those who are the subject of our debate. Those who work, or training

:33:06. > :33:09.hospitals. Those with Philby posed that we have been talking about. Not

:33:10. > :33:12.just the nurses and midwives but a number of colleagues have made the

:33:13. > :33:19.civic reference to those in the Allied health profession. Diabetic

:33:20. > :33:28.occupational therapy, prosthetics, physiotherapy, chiropody, radios

:33:29. > :33:32.therapy -- regular therapy, dental therapy. These are all very

:33:33. > :33:38.important component of the National health Service. All of us recognise

:33:39. > :33:41.the importance of the work that is done in hospitals. We thank them for

:33:42. > :33:46.the work that they do. This is not an unusual debate. The current

:33:47. > :33:52.proposals to change something, the opposition react with horror. That

:33:53. > :33:55.is the way it. Whether or not, they are given to good or bad, this is

:33:56. > :34:01.the way in which it goes. There have been a bright young are doing, some

:34:02. > :34:04.good, some less good, though. Essentially, whenever changes

:34:05. > :34:10.proposed, there is a set of reaction. As far as the Brewers

:34:11. > :34:15.reaction, I do say to the honourable lady, with the great sincerity,

:34:16. > :34:22.please don't go down the class route. That was unnecessary. Picking

:34:23. > :34:26.out what people may have heard as they were growing up in certain

:34:27. > :34:29.places and graduating. I'm the son of a doctor and a teacher, public

:34:30. > :34:34.health workers in my household. I think the shape and sensitise got a

:34:35. > :34:40.public service and commitment was possibly shape there. I don't dig it

:34:41. > :34:46.was any different for the honourable lady. I see no evidence from the

:34:47. > :34:48.honourable lady of Liverpool that, in any way, though useful

:34:49. > :34:53.conversations were, in any way shape or form will be because of a

:34:54. > :34:56.commitment to mental health or anything else. To suggest that my

:34:57. > :34:59.honourable friend may not have picked up the same sort of

:35:00. > :35:03.information as you, and that may have impacted on his care and his

:35:04. > :35:06.work as a health minister, I thought that was pretty low. The honourable

:35:07. > :35:16.lady should not go down that road and not go down that road again. The

:35:17. > :35:24.two main arguments presented against what we are trying to do today have

:35:25. > :35:26.been deterrence. Or the fact that the odd occasions are somehow

:35:27. > :35:30.unpalatable and people will not go into them. Deterrence. I am old

:35:31. > :35:34.enough to be for the original debate about the introduction of student

:35:35. > :35:38.fees and everyone at that time who protested against said no one would

:35:39. > :35:41.ever go to university again, with pork backgrounds would never go to

:35:42. > :35:46.university again. -- poor backgrounds. The same argument have

:35:47. > :35:51.been proven false time and time again. What is not false the damage

:35:52. > :35:51.done at the time of those debates in trying to

:35:52. > :36:00.want to aspire to higher education want to dig themselves a different

:36:01. > :36:04.direction that are somehow, it will be made impossible for them and they

:36:05. > :36:10.will be unable to do so. They were wrong then. They are wrong now. But

:36:11. > :36:16.what is unique about this has been mentioned several times during this

:36:17. > :36:19.debate. Nurses using the bursary scheme enter as mature students

:36:20. > :36:26.disproportionately, including three of my nieces who would not have gone

:36:27. > :36:31.on to train as excellent nurses if they had not had the bursary

:36:32. > :36:37.available to them. At the same time, the honourable lady would have heard

:36:38. > :36:43.people speak about problems of hardship on bursary, from the

:36:44. > :36:47.honourable gentleman from Ilford North to people on the side. People

:36:48. > :36:50.want access to more funds. That may help the people the honourable lady

:36:51. > :36:55.has just mentioned. The assumptions made that, because Asian one has

:36:56. > :36:59.come in, because of the change, people just will not want to do so.

:37:00. > :37:04.There is no evidence to suggest that that is correct. Using it as a scare

:37:05. > :37:09.story is not helpful in terms of the recruitment they want to see. Yes. I

:37:10. > :37:13.thank the Minister for giving way. Does he accept there is genuine

:37:14. > :37:17.anxiety from the Royal colleges about the proposal? Will reconnect

:37:18. > :37:24.to engaging as fully as possible without's that is a good question.

:37:25. > :37:28.Yes. Of course. At a time of change, there is a degree of uncertainty. I

:37:29. > :37:33.think my main point is, the way in which it has blown up yet again

:37:34. > :37:40.unfamiliar ground, this sort of interaction about student loans will

:37:41. > :37:43.deter people from going, it will disadvantage people from poorer

:37:44. > :37:45.backgrounds, has been problem to be false. Of course, the concerns are

:37:46. > :37:52.very much the matter of consultation. I would say, knowledge

:37:53. > :37:59.into that, the consultation process is very wide and very genuine. He is

:38:00. > :38:02.listening to ideas about 's operations and proposals. The

:38:03. > :38:08.consultations are not complete. The scheme is not complete. He is

:38:09. > :38:13.keeping a very close here on these consultations. There is a

:38:14. > :38:16.recognition, of course, that there are different characteristics for

:38:17. > :38:20.those who go into nursing and midwifery and allied health

:38:21. > :38:26.professionals. That is why we want to make sure that there is an

:38:27. > :38:30.appropriate support available. Student support regulations give

:38:31. > :38:33.more support than the bursary. Secretary of State retains the power

:38:34. > :38:44.to give discretionary funding in capital cases and it is open to

:38:45. > :38:48.reform is reflecting that. I will in just a moment. Recognising our

:38:49. > :38:58.position to say, as my honourable friend, the member for Totnes...

:38:59. > :39:01.Sorry, for Faversham said, more of the same want to do the job. The

:39:02. > :39:05.need for changes there. We need more nurses. We need more nurses

:39:06. > :39:09.domestically trained and we are going to do something different.

:39:10. > :39:13.Recognising what they might be in relation to change, that is why the

:39:14. > :39:16.consultation is there. Unique characteristics are reflected. That

:39:17. > :39:20.is what the consultation is about. Keeping me sane system now does not

:39:21. > :39:26.work. It won't work any future. That is why we need change. -- the same

:39:27. > :39:34.system. I thank my honourable friend forgiving way. Would you agree that

:39:35. > :39:43.we are and it's a current crisis with half Ian Ward actually staff at

:39:44. > :39:49.lowly minimum staffing level for safety? Do you think this will

:39:50. > :39:52.hinder the issue? -- the board. I believe the honourable lady is

:39:53. > :39:55.knowledgeable about this. The proposals help. At the moment, the

:39:56. > :39:59.problem of nurse training in this country is that it is limited. The

:40:00. > :40:06.universities cannot take all the people who want to be nurses. They

:40:07. > :40:09.have to turn them away. 30 7000. What is scheme does is open up the

:40:10. > :40:25.opportunity for more people to train. -- 30 7000. -- 37,000. Will

:40:26. > :40:29.this open up more opportunities? Yes, it will. That is why the

:40:30. > :40:31.proposal is there. I want to set up the details, just to those who have

:40:32. > :40:36.not been able to send you hold debate also just to indicate the

:40:37. > :40:40.basis of the reforms and then answer one or two questions that a rate. To

:40:41. > :40:45.deliver more nurses, midwives and allied health professionals for the

:40:46. > :40:50.NHS, a better funding system in England and a sustainable model for

:40:51. > :40:54.universities. We need to movies from grants and bursaries on to the

:40:55. > :40:59.standard student loan system. -- move these. The bursary system is

:41:00. > :41:03.not a viable option for the Government. Any two increased

:41:04. > :41:11.student places, live within our budget and increase investment by an

:41:12. > :41:15.additional ?10,000. The subjects we are talking about our extended

:41:16. > :41:24.bottle for students. In 2014, nursing register as the fourth most

:41:25. > :41:30.popular subject on UCAS. 20,000 places were applied for. Surely it

:41:31. > :41:33.is better than denying many students a place at university, to ensure

:41:34. > :41:38.there are enough health professionals for the NHS while

:41:39. > :41:41.cutting the current reliance on overseas staff and giving more

:41:42. > :41:44.applicants the chance to become health professionals. Part of the

:41:45. > :41:52.reason why we need to modernise the funding system is for student

:41:53. > :41:55.nurses, midwives and allied health professionals to have access to more

:41:56. > :42:01.money via the student loan system. A move to the Launceston in the

:42:02. > :42:05.future, this would ensure a 25% increase in the financial resources

:42:06. > :42:08.available to them. Especially for living costs during Atlantic

:42:09. > :42:11.University. It is not possible to pick out all the speeches were made

:42:12. > :42:17.today, but I would like to make reference to some. The honourable

:42:18. > :42:24.lady, the member for East Kilbride, Stadt Haven and Lesnar Eggo made

:42:25. > :42:33.reference to graduates shouldn't switch were important. -- a

:42:34. > :42:36.Fulbright. We acknowledge, any consultation, there are some courses

:42:37. > :42:44.which currently fall outside the postgraduate loan package. Working

:42:45. > :42:47.with the Treasury means that we will be able to address these in the

:42:48. > :42:56.consultation responses. She is right to raise that. My honourable friend,

:42:57. > :42:58.the chair of the health select committee and the chair for Totnes

:42:59. > :43:02.said we have detained more nurses. That is the bottom line of what

:43:03. > :43:09.you're trying do. She said that it was important to listen to the needs

:43:10. > :43:13.on transition and also she spoke about getting more professionals

:43:14. > :43:17.into other parts, away from the acute sector and into primary care.

:43:18. > :43:21.She knows that is a major interest of the Government and these

:43:22. > :43:27.proposals will help that as well. My honourable friend from Morecambe

:43:28. > :43:32.said they would like to recruit more at home. They will be able to under

:43:33. > :43:36.these proposals. My honourable friend, the member for hedging and

:43:37. > :43:44.happened in a spoke about what he had discovered in relation to