09/05/2016

:00:00. > :00:00.legislated and passed by this Parliament. I would urge her to look

:00:00. > :00:00.at the earlier changes will benefit cab which have had positive outcomes

:00:00. > :00:13.in terms of encouraging and supporting people into work. Order,

:00:14. > :00:20.order. Will members wishing to take their seats please, to the table. --

:00:21. > :00:45.please come to the table. I swear by Almighty God that I will

:00:46. > :00:49.be faithful and bear true allegiance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her

:00:50. > :01:36.heirs, successors according to law, so help me God.

:01:37. > :01:57.The member for Sheffield Brightside and Hillsborough.

:01:58. > :02:22.Will the member wishing to take his seat now please come to the table?

:02:23. > :02:29.I swear by Almighty God that I will be faithful and bear true allegiance

:02:30. > :02:30.to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth, her heirs and successors according to

:02:31. > :03:37.law, so help me God. Will he make a statement on the

:03:38. > :03:45.safety and custody in violence -- on violence in prison. Mr Speaker,

:03:46. > :03:48.before I move onto the substance of this question, I would like to

:03:49. > :03:53.update the on events which occurred at Wormwood Scrubs over this

:03:54. > :03:58.weekend. On the morning of Friday the 6th of May cover prison officers

:03:59. > :04:03.refused to enter the prison, citing Health Safety grounds. Later, an

:04:04. > :04:05.agreement was reached between the National Offender Management Service

:04:06. > :04:10.and the prison officers Association. All officers have now returned to

:04:11. > :04:16.work and the prison is running a normal regime. The National Offender

:04:17. > :04:19.Management Service and the prison officers Association are jointly

:04:20. > :04:25.committed to resolving any outstanding Health Safety concerns

:04:26. > :04:29.at Wormwood Scrubs. On Sunday the 8th of May, to members of staff at

:04:30. > :04:35.Wormwood Scrubs were assaulted and taken to hospital for treatment. We

:04:36. > :04:40.do not tolerate any violence against our hard-working officers. The

:04:41. > :04:45.alleged perpetrator is now facing a police investigation which could

:04:46. > :04:49.lead to come in all charges. Moving on to the wider question, I take the

:04:50. > :04:54.issue of safety in prisoners are very seriously. Reducing the harm in

:04:55. > :04:57.that prisoners may cause to themselves or others is the

:04:58. > :05:04.Government's top priority in prisons. The most recent statistics

:05:05. > :05:09.on safety and custody show that levels of self inflicted deaths,

:05:10. > :05:14.self harm and violence in prison are too high. The figures demonstrate

:05:15. > :05:20.the very serious challenges facing the prison service. And there is no

:05:21. > :05:23.single, simple solution to the increases in death and violence in

:05:24. > :05:29.prisons. These trends have been seen across the prison estate, both in

:05:30. > :05:35.public and private prisons and in prisons and both praised and

:05:36. > :05:38.criticised by HM Inspector of prisons. We have already taken a

:05:39. > :05:47.number of steps to address these problems. We have recruited 2830

:05:48. > :05:52.prison officers since January 2015, a net increase of 530. We are

:05:53. > :05:56.trialling the use of body water cameras in prisons, we are

:05:57. > :06:00.strengthening the case management of individuals who risk harming others.

:06:01. > :06:06.And we've introduced tough new laws which will see those who smuggle

:06:07. > :06:10.packages over prison walls, including other substances, face of

:06:11. > :06:18.the two years in prison. We have recruited -- viewed prisoners at

:06:19. > :06:22.harm -- risk of being upon to themselves. It is clear we must do

:06:23. > :06:27.more. We need to reduce violence and prevent drugs entering prison. We

:06:28. > :06:31.have to do better at helping prisoners with mental health

:06:32. > :06:34.problems and we must ensure that prisoners can be rehabilitated so

:06:35. > :06:39.they are no longer a danger to others. And that is why this

:06:40. > :06:43.Government is committed to fundamental reform of our prisons.

:06:44. > :06:48.We have secured ?1.3 billion to modernise the prison state and will

:06:49. > :06:53.give a greater autonomy to governors so they are truly in charge. And I

:06:54. > :06:57.look forward to setting out our plans in greater detail shortly.

:06:58. > :07:00.These problems are deep seated and there are no easy answers. But I can

:07:01. > :07:06.assure the House that this Government will not waver in its

:07:07. > :07:17.determination to reform our prisons so that they become places of

:07:18. > :07:20.decency, hope and rehabilitation. I thank the Minister for that

:07:21. > :07:23.response, but fear it is exactly what we've heard time and time again

:07:24. > :07:32.at the dispatch box. I hope people can see the situation in our prisons

:07:33. > :07:35.is very serious today and the recent incidents show unacceptable

:07:36. > :07:38.behaviour and conditions, it cannot be right. The prison staff and

:07:39. > :07:43.public are at risk from the failure of this Government get a grip on the

:07:44. > :07:45.crisis in our prisons. That makes it all the more they prize in that the

:07:46. > :07:49.Secretary of State is not here today. We are all engaged in the

:07:50. > :07:53.referendum campaign, there is no reason for him to neglect his

:07:54. > :07:57.responsibility as Secretary of State. Yesterday, the minister said,

:07:58. > :08:00.to prison officers were hospitalised following an assault whilst on duty

:08:01. > :08:04.at Wormwood Scrubs in my constituency. Our thoughts are with

:08:05. > :08:07.them and their families. It is a reminder of the difficult and

:08:08. > :08:10.dangerous job that officers do every day, often hidden from public gaze

:08:11. > :08:16.and without the knowledge that they deserve. This attack was entirely

:08:17. > :08:19.predictable though. So much so, that to days before as the Minister said,

:08:20. > :08:23.70 members of staff at Wormwood Scrubs walked out because they did

:08:24. > :08:26.not feel safe. And while Tornado officers were sent into the prison

:08:27. > :08:32.on Saturday, they were withdrawn on Sunday when the attacks happened.

:08:33. > :08:34.Will the Minister says Pacific steps are being taken to ensure safety and

:08:35. > :08:50.Wormwood Scrubs? There are insufficient staffing

:08:51. > :08:54.numbers. With additional offices be provided to perform basic staff

:08:55. > :08:58.until a review of staffing at this and similar prisons is undertaking?

:08:59. > :09:02.Wormwood Scrubs is not an isolated incident, it is typical of the

:09:03. > :09:08.dangers and problems across the prison estate. Reports of Lewis and

:09:09. > :09:13.Leeds prisons have told the same story and it was said last week that

:09:14. > :09:16.his department will take over Medway secure training college after

:09:17. > :09:22.reports of the appalling conduct of due for a staff in running that

:09:23. > :09:25.institution including allegations of serious violence against children.

:09:26. > :09:36.14 prison staff are assaulted every day. There were 4963 attacks in 2015

:09:37. > :09:41.compared with 300 -- 3000 -- more than 3000 and 2014. Prisons are now

:09:42. > :09:45.violent and dangerous places with risk of serious harm and suicide at

:09:46. > :09:49.record levels. We have heard for a year that the Government wishes to

:09:50. > :09:54.transform our prisons. Now is the time for action before more prisons

:09:55. > :09:56.become ungovernable and we see more serious injuries or god forbid the

:09:57. > :10:04.death of an officer on duty. What I would say to the Honourable

:10:05. > :10:09.Gentleman is that this Government is not in denial about the situation.

:10:10. > :10:13.We have not been idle in seeking to dress it and we do not lack vision

:10:14. > :10:18.or political will in terms of the issues the Honourable Gentleman has

:10:19. > :10:20.rightly raised. I can also assure him that the Secretary of State

:10:21. > :10:26.takes this issue extremely seriously, and it is our top

:10:27. > :10:31.priority as far as prisons are concerned. He is absolutely right in

:10:32. > :10:36.that he says the work by prison officers do day in day out across

:10:37. > :10:40.our country is by its very nature hidden from public view. I can say

:10:41. > :10:46.they are outstanding public servants who do amazing good, which

:10:47. > :10:51.unfortunately is not seen or perhaps fully appreciated by most of us as

:10:52. > :10:56.much as it should be. I would also say to him that the nature of

:10:57. > :11:03.offenders currently in custody has changed. Today there are around 30%

:11:04. > :11:08.more people sentenced to prison for violent offences, and prisoners are

:11:09. > :11:13.today often acting more spontaneously and violently than

:11:14. > :11:16.they did in the past in order to achieve their objectives. In terms

:11:17. > :11:23.of recruitment, I repeat what I said to the Honourable Gentleman. We have

:11:24. > :11:30.been recruiting at. And for the last two years. We have recruited an

:11:31. > :11:35.extra 2830 officers since January 2015, and are continuing to recruit

:11:36. > :11:43.at that level to ensure our prisons are adequately staffed. The Minister

:11:44. > :11:49.knows that gradually we are understanding more and more about

:11:50. > :11:53.the violence that affects our prisons, and that violence can

:11:54. > :11:57.sometimes be due to inappropriate handling of prisoners with mental

:11:58. > :12:02.health problems, or indeed that are on the autism spectrum. Just some

:12:03. > :12:07.small changes can make a difference to the behaviour of those

:12:08. > :12:12.individuals, so would he welcomed the National Autistic Society's

:12:13. > :12:16.initiative would some prisons to have autism awareness accreditation,

:12:17. > :12:19.in particular Feltham, where it is making a difference, and could he

:12:20. > :12:23.give me an assurance that he will look at rolling this programme out

:12:24. > :12:30.fully across the prison and custody system? First of all I pay tribute

:12:31. > :12:36.to the Right Honourable Lady, my Right Honourable Friend's extensive

:12:37. > :12:41.knowledge of this issue and the legislation she initiated in this

:12:42. > :12:45.House. It was a pleasure to visit HMP Feltham with her, which I can

:12:46. > :12:48.tell the House is now the first autism accredited prison in the

:12:49. > :12:52.whole world, something I am extremely proud of. This good work

:12:53. > :12:56.must not stop at Feltham, we need to spread it across the prison estate,

:12:57. > :13:04.and she is right that this is one part of reducing violence across the

:13:05. > :13:08.estate. Inspectors have warned of the Dickensian squalor inside

:13:09. > :13:12.Wormwood Scrubs following a scathing report, reviewing that the jail is

:13:13. > :13:19.rat infested with inmates spending up to 22 hours a day locked in

:13:20. > :13:22.squalid cells. Overcrowding and poor conditions exacerbated this

:13:23. > :13:26.violence, not only to staff but other prisoners. On the issue of

:13:27. > :13:31.staffing, it is clear from a recent statement from the Prison Governors

:13:32. > :13:34.Association that oversaw understaffing is an issue. Can he

:13:35. > :13:40.assure us that the ideological drive to cut public services will not

:13:41. > :13:43.further jeopardise staff and present safety, and will he also looked at

:13:44. > :13:51.the example of the Scottish Government, whose approach to

:13:52. > :13:56.recommending a presumption against shorter sentences of three months

:13:57. > :14:00.has led to them plummeting and reconviction rate at a 16 year low.

:14:01. > :14:06.Will he take steps to follow the Scottish Government's lead in

:14:07. > :14:11.creating a presumption against short sentences and instead investigating

:14:12. > :14:17.in robust community censuses -- sentences to address the underlying

:14:18. > :14:22.causes of crime? I've visited HMP Wormwood Scrubs week or so ago. We

:14:23. > :14:27.have an excellent new governor in the prison who has a good record. I

:14:28. > :14:33.believe he has the best possible chance of making sure the prison

:14:34. > :14:37.improves those issues. We have 15 officers over and above the

:14:38. > :14:41.benchmark level within Wormwood Scrubs. The drive to greater

:14:42. > :14:47.governor autonomy will help deal with a number of these issues, and

:14:48. > :14:52.in respect of sentencing, the Government is currently consulting

:14:53. > :14:58.on sentencing issues. I thank my Honourable Friend for the interest

:14:59. > :15:01.and indeed action he has taken in the area of security, and interest

:15:02. > :15:09.the Justice committee shares. Today I met the prisons and privation

:15:10. > :15:15.ombudsman have told me 61% to inmates take psychoactive substances

:15:16. > :15:18.at present. I wondered what consideration he had given to

:15:19. > :15:23.enlarging the area of smoke-free zones in prisons and to what extent

:15:24. > :15:26.he feels that might help with the problems? My Honourable Friend, who

:15:27. > :15:32.is very knowledgeable on these issues as a Member of the select

:15:33. > :15:37.committee, is absolutely right in pointing the finger at the terrible

:15:38. > :15:43.damage caused by new psychoactive substances. I agree with her that as

:15:44. > :15:47.we roll out smoke-free prisons across England and Wales, that will

:15:48. > :15:51.help us reduce the damage, because often we know these psychoactive

:15:52. > :15:56.substances are sometimes openly smote with prisoners pretending it

:15:57. > :15:59.is tobacco when it is not. I am with her in wanting the roll-out

:16:00. > :16:09.progressed but we will only do so in a measured and Safeway. The

:16:10. > :16:12.Independent monitoring board for Leicester prison published a damning

:16:13. > :16:16.report about conditions in that prison this morning, and it pointed

:16:17. > :16:21.to all the matters he has raised, rising levels of violence, the use

:16:22. > :16:24.of drugs and mental health issues. The issue is about increasing

:16:25. > :16:27.staffing, although the Government has increased the number of

:16:28. > :16:32.officers, it is clearly not enough. What further steps can be taken to

:16:33. > :16:40.help the officers at Leicester Prison? My commitment to the House

:16:41. > :16:44.is to carry on recruiting at the increased level of activity we have

:16:45. > :16:48.been for the last few years. That is proving successful. It is a

:16:49. > :16:53.challenge, specifically some sites in London and the south-east more

:16:54. > :16:57.than others, but we are managing to make progress, there is the budget

:16:58. > :16:59.to carry on employing prison officers, and I am determined that

:17:00. > :17:12.we will carry on our recruitment objectives. The question was already

:17:13. > :17:17.ably asked... What an extraordinary novel development, and Honourable

:17:18. > :17:24.Member who doesn't indulge in superfluous repetition! You are in

:17:25. > :17:28.danger of winning a medal! Extraordinary development. The

:17:29. > :17:34.Minister mention the importance of dealing with mental health in

:17:35. > :17:39.prisons. On Friday I met JP in my constituency who was talking about

:17:40. > :17:42.the good work done by the liaison and diversion services. He was

:17:43. > :17:47.encouraging me to encourage the Minister and Secretary of State to

:17:48. > :17:51.extend those services and ensure the more community orders have with them

:17:52. > :17:58.at a condition that people get the help they need. Honourable Friend

:17:59. > :18:02.who is also knowledgeable on these issues is right and I can tell how

:18:03. > :18:06.the Government is committed to making sure there is universal

:18:07. > :18:11.access to a mental health assessment from the moment anyone encounters

:18:12. > :18:14.the criminal justice system, and I would also point her to the

:18:15. > :18:18.co-commissioning between governors and NHS England as far as mental

:18:19. > :18:26.health and drug abuse services, that will happen, which I think will also

:18:27. > :18:31.be very beneficial in this area. I am sure the Minister wants to sort

:18:32. > :18:39.this problem, I have no doubt about that, and I thought his account of a

:18:40. > :18:45.passion for reform, decency and hope was compelling, except, the fact is

:18:46. > :18:48.it hasn't worked. Since 2012, the number of assaults in prisons has

:18:49. > :18:52.doubled, the number of assaults on staff has doubled, and although he

:18:53. > :18:58.talks about grew to more staff recently, the number of staff

:18:59. > :19:01.altogether has fallen, and those staff are frightened. We are talking

:19:02. > :19:06.about brave prison officers who are scared to go to work. And what has

:19:07. > :19:15.he got to say today which will. And being frightened to go to work? The

:19:16. > :19:17.Right Honourable Friend is right that confidence is an extremely

:19:18. > :19:24.important commodity as far as the day to day work of prison officers

:19:25. > :19:29.is concerned. She will know as she has been bolted on these issues for

:19:30. > :19:33.many years, that the prison service has been involved by waves of drugs

:19:34. > :19:38.affecting prisons in a major ways, and that in the early 1990s and the

:19:39. > :19:43.fourth had serious invasions as far as prisons were concerned, leading

:19:44. > :19:47.to riots and serious assaults in very high numbers. We have a whole

:19:48. > :19:51.violence reduction Project, a two year project. It wouldn't be helpful

:19:52. > :20:03.to give a shopping list of measures now before the violence diagnostic

:20:04. > :20:09.tool and many other measures, to back up hard-working prison

:20:10. > :20:16.officers. We hope to have more to say on these initiatives shortly.

:20:17. > :20:23.Does the Minister agree with me that the prevalent use of legal highs, in

:20:24. > :20:29.particular Spice in my constituency, is one of the many clear courses of

:20:30. > :20:32.these increases in violence and unpredictable behaviour by our

:20:33. > :20:36.prison population, and I would be grateful for guidance on what we are

:20:37. > :20:42.doing to try to reduced rheumatic leave the numbers of those cases. It

:20:43. > :20:49.was a pleasure to go rounds HMP Northumberland with my Honourable

:20:50. > :20:56.Friend a few months ago. These drugs will shortly be completely illegal

:20:57. > :21:00.as from the 26th of May when the Psychoactive Substances Act is

:21:01. > :21:03.enforced, and that is very welcome. She is right in what she says and we

:21:04. > :21:12.will not waver and our determination to crack down on them. Can I first

:21:13. > :21:17.of all thank the Minister for the amicable meeting we had last week

:21:18. > :21:21.with regards to HMP Northumberland. The comment nominated throughout the

:21:22. > :21:27.whole prison estate nationwide is quite simply a lack of manpower --

:21:28. > :21:32.the comment nominator. That is causing violence, whether the mental

:21:33. > :21:37.health issue, whether alcohol or Spice or whatever. Can the Minister

:21:38. > :21:41.say, he has said it is challenging, what extra measures can he take to

:21:42. > :21:47.ensure we have plenty of staff employed in the prisons to maintain

:21:48. > :21:52.a safe environment for everybody concerned on the prison estate? As

:21:53. > :21:58.far as the Honourable Gentleman is as concerned my door is always open,

:21:59. > :22:02.if he has further concerns about HMP Northumberland he is welcome to come

:22:03. > :22:06.back to see me again. What I would say is that if we analyse what has

:22:07. > :22:09.happened across the prison state, the increase in violence has

:22:10. > :22:14.happened in prisons where there has been an increase in the number of

:22:15. > :22:19.officers, the number of officers has stayed the same as well as there

:22:20. > :22:23.have been reductions. He is right to say we need increased staff which is

:22:24. > :22:27.why I give him the commitment that we will carry on recruiting at the

:22:28. > :22:30.level that we are doing, and net increase of 530 officers last year,

:22:31. > :22:39.we will carry on recruiting at that level. I have asked the Minister to

:22:40. > :22:42.come down to visit the young offenders at Portland and I know

:22:43. > :22:47.hopefully he will shortly. They have an unpleasant riot the other day,

:22:48. > :22:53.prison officers were put in danger, and I must pay credit to all prison

:22:54. > :22:56.officers who worked like a forgotten army behind-the-scenes. There is

:22:57. > :23:00.particular concern at Portland because it is an old structure, on

:23:01. > :23:04.the number of flaws, four or five floors but not enough officers to

:23:05. > :23:07.man them all at the same time, thereby putting them at risk and

:23:08. > :23:12.allowing prisoners free weighing whether should perhaps have it --

:23:13. > :23:15.free rein. Can I ask my Honourable Friend to look at this and increase

:23:16. > :23:23.the number of prison officers hopefully as fast as we can? It

:23:24. > :23:27.would be a pleasure to visit HMP Portland with my friend in due

:23:28. > :23:33.course. I know what he says about the design of that prison, and of

:23:34. > :23:34.course with the ?1.3 billion commitment, this gives the

:23:35. > :23:40.Government the opportunity to get the best design knowledge from

:23:41. > :23:46.around the world to make sure the new prisons we build are as safe as

:23:47. > :23:52.possible, and that will also enabler to cease to operate some prisons

:23:53. > :23:57.were assaults and bullying can take place partly because of poor design.

:23:58. > :24:03.In the first five years of this Government and above the prison

:24:04. > :24:07.officers fell by 41%. In the sixth year of this Government, assaults on

:24:08. > :24:11.prison officers rose by the same percentage, 41%. He mentions that

:24:12. > :24:14.prison officer numbers are increasing, but he uses a figure

:24:15. > :24:18.based on the last couple of years. Could it may harm the prison

:24:19. > :24:25.officers there were in 2010? And how many there are today? I do not have

:24:26. > :24:30.a particular figure to hand. Although, my memory is that he has

:24:31. > :24:33.asked that before and I've already written to him with the answer, but

:24:34. > :24:40.I will dig out the letter I sent, because maybe it went astray. But

:24:41. > :24:44.speaking as the current prisoners at minister to the former prisons

:24:45. > :24:47.Minister, and I know the right honourable gentleman cares deeply

:24:48. > :24:50.about this as I do, you will know these issues are not easy and know

:24:51. > :24:55.his own Government faced considerable difficulties on exactly

:24:56. > :24:59.the same number of these issues, but what is not in doubt is this

:25:00. > :25:05.Government's to determination through the prison reform programme

:25:06. > :25:08.to get on top of them. He was chuntering from a sedentary position

:25:09. > :25:11.that he knew that and do his own question, which is probably very

:25:12. > :25:18.wise and will enable us all to sleep much more soundly from -- in our

:25:19. > :25:22.beds tonight. I commend my honourable friend the wiki does as

:25:23. > :25:25.prisons minister and takes his role extremely seriously. I fit Michael

:25:26. > :25:32.Stich wins would be surprised to hear quite how much stuff is being

:25:33. > :25:37.thrown over prison walls, mobile phones, drugs, legal highs and

:25:38. > :25:41.knives. Surely in 2060 we have the ability to stop this happening? Or

:25:42. > :25:44.at least to minimise it? What plans does the Minister have and what can

:25:45. > :25:50.it tell us about how we will tackle this issue? Mr Speaker, these issues

:25:51. > :25:54.are not easy, our prisons are not lie the Eden Project with a dome

:25:55. > :25:58.over the top and unfortunately, it is not us to easier to get these

:25:59. > :26:02.over a prison wall as I saw when I went around HMP Rochester last

:26:03. > :26:05.Thursday. But my honourable friend raises an important issue, because

:26:06. > :26:10.what I think is pointing at is that all of us, particularly as MPs, have

:26:11. > :26:14.a role as Thatcher or getting the message out in our communities that

:26:15. > :26:18.these new psychiatric substances or lethally dangerous, they do terrible

:26:19. > :26:22.harm to the loved ones of families who inadvertently bring them in to

:26:23. > :26:27.prisoners and we need a local community to work with us and the

:26:28. > :26:33.police in trying to stop this terrible flow of these evil drugs of

:26:34. > :26:37.the prison walls. Thank you, Mr Speaker. The Minister is right.

:26:38. > :26:42.Prison officers do an exceptionally difficult job and they deserve our

:26:43. > :26:45.fullest possible support. But that must be more than a platitude and

:26:46. > :26:49.for that to be the case, the staffing levels have got to be

:26:50. > :26:53.addressed. The other issue that needs addressing is prison

:26:54. > :26:59.overcrowding. We have got a prison population now in excess of 90,000

:27:00. > :27:04.in the rates. We have seen the length of sentences in the last 15

:27:05. > :27:08.years drop by 33%. Can the Minister assure me that as he tackles this,

:27:09. > :27:11.he will look at it in the round and not just look at prisons in

:27:12. > :27:17.isolation, but also how they interact with police, prosecution

:27:18. > :27:20.and court authorities? I thank the right honourable gentleman for his

:27:21. > :27:26.praise for the work of outstanding prison officers up and down the

:27:27. > :27:29.country. I would say to him that we are consulting on sentencing issues

:27:30. > :27:34.which have a bearing on the overcrowding which he mentioned and

:27:35. > :27:38.we are also determined to bring down reoffending as well. Our success in

:27:39. > :27:46.reducing reoffending will also reduce prison overcrowding. I would

:27:47. > :27:50.like to thank the Minister for his comments today, but also for his

:27:51. > :27:56.support around the concerns we had at HMP Rochester and the secure unit

:27:57. > :28:01.as a whole and I also thank him for his very, very speedy meeting with

:28:02. > :28:06.me and the governor at Rochester earlier in the year. Particularly

:28:07. > :28:10.though, as in the Minister will know, this year, our Medway secure

:28:11. > :28:12.training centre was at the centre of news allegations, I would like to

:28:13. > :28:16.ask the Minister if he could possibly confirm when the

:28:17. > :28:22.improvement reports will be published, because my constituents

:28:23. > :28:24.really would like some assurances that action and improvements have

:28:25. > :28:29.taken place so that young people are safe in Medway. I would commend my

:28:30. > :28:35.honourable friend for the serious interest and support that she gives

:28:36. > :28:40.to the three prisons within the constituency. I was in HMP Rochester

:28:41. > :28:43.on Thursday morning and I would like to commend the outstanding work of

:28:44. > :28:48.the governor and head of security, in particular, in what they are

:28:49. > :28:55.doing to combat the constant pressure of drugs coming into that

:28:56. > :28:59.prison. As far as Medway is concerned, I can tell that shortly,

:29:00. > :29:03.we will be seeing more -- saying more about this, I have met with

:29:04. > :29:07.Doctor Gary Holden and the members of the Medway improvements aboard,

:29:08. > :29:10.appointed by the Secretary of State, and I will be making further

:29:11. > :29:17.announcements on their findings in due course. One of Michael Stich

:29:18. > :29:22.wins came to see me just this weekend to express her fears for her

:29:23. > :29:26.son who is imprisoned. She said to me that every day she expects to get

:29:27. > :29:31.a phone call saying her son has been murdered in prison. What reassurance

:29:32. > :29:36.can the Minister give me that prisoners, while serving their time,

:29:37. > :29:41.do not live in fear of their lives? What I would say to her is that the

:29:42. > :29:45.whole prison reform agenda speaks directly to the issue of violence.

:29:46. > :29:52.Our vision of prisoners is one where prisoners will engage in a really

:29:53. > :29:56.meaningful, relevant education. In skill and training, linked to skills

:29:57. > :30:00.needed in the local community that will help get them a job. In a real

:30:01. > :30:03.commitment to keep family relationships strong. If we can do

:30:04. > :30:12.all those three things, we will reduce frustration and violence and

:30:13. > :30:16.assaults. Wormwood Scrubs has been described by the Prison Officers'

:30:17. > :30:21.Association as a flooded with drugs, mobile phones and weapons. And by

:30:22. > :30:26.the Chief inspector as having cells so bad, you would not keep a dog in

:30:27. > :30:34.them. Does the Minister is still think that this prison is fit for

:30:35. > :30:36.purpose? HMP Wormwood Scrubs is a Victorian prison which has various

:30:37. > :30:40.challenges. I went around its recently, and as I said, I have

:30:41. > :30:43.confidence in the very good and your governor that we have there. She

:30:44. > :30:49.mentioned mobile phones, which we have not talked about much so far

:30:50. > :30:51.today. But I can tell her, as the Prime Minister announced on the 8th

:30:52. > :30:57.of February, we are committed also to working with the mobile network

:30:58. > :30:59.operators who also lead -- need to rise to their responsibilities and

:31:00. > :31:07.help us fight the scourge of mobile phones within the prison. In the

:31:08. > :31:12.last four years, there's been a rise in violence on the prison officers.

:31:13. > :31:16.This is because of the understaffing and also the fact they are not

:31:17. > :31:20.enough programmes for proper rehabilitation of prisoners. It not

:31:21. > :31:25.time that we decided and re-evaluated how we decide who to

:31:26. > :31:28.send to prison and when we do send them to prison, there is proper

:31:29. > :31:36.provision available to rehabilitate them? Obviously, the decision as to

:31:37. > :31:40.who goes to prison is for our independent judiciary, but she's

:31:41. > :31:44.absolutely right on the need for better rehabilitation. We are

:31:45. > :31:47.determined that time in a prison will be wasted, it will be

:31:48. > :31:51.productive, it will be relevant and it will be benefited to the

:31:52. > :31:59.individual prisoner and the wider community at keeping us all safe

:32:00. > :32:02.when they come out of prison. My prison in Bridgend as excellent

:32:03. > :32:08.rehabilitation work. Including drug rehabilitation work. But it needs to

:32:09. > :32:11.support the local police force. It needs to tackle the smuggling in

:32:12. > :32:17.drugs and the throwing of drugs over the wall. He gets that help. What is

:32:18. > :32:22.the Minister doing to ensure police forces across the UK are working

:32:23. > :32:26.with a prisoner forces and officers, because attacks on prison officers

:32:27. > :32:29.and prisoner on prisoner violence is increasing and if we are not working

:32:30. > :32:33.together with our police force to arrest those guilty of making sure

:32:34. > :32:38.those drugs get into the prisons, we are wasting our time. I'd like to

:32:39. > :32:42.start by thanking her for praising the work of HMP Bridgend in a

:32:43. > :32:50.constituency and if I may, the outstanding family work done in a

:32:51. > :32:53.prison. I'm grateful that raised the issue of good cooperation with the

:32:54. > :32:57.local police, I'm pleased it's working well in her area. But she is

:32:58. > :33:03.right that they can be variable across the country and it's an issue

:33:04. > :33:09.article extremely seriously and have regular conversations with the

:33:10. > :33:17.policing minister about. Mr Speaker, it is no mystery why assaults have

:33:18. > :33:20.increased in prison on prison officers and between prisoners,

:33:21. > :33:26.there's been suicides, more suicides. In fact, the last report

:33:27. > :33:31.only last week said every single factor had gone up. It's no surprise

:33:32. > :33:34.when you cut staff by a third. I was worried please listen to the

:33:35. > :33:39.Secretary of State and applauded him. I am disappointed he is not

:33:40. > :33:42.today. But the vision is good. And I would support that vision. The

:33:43. > :33:48.vision is good for the future but we cannot wait for that jam tomorrow.

:33:49. > :33:53.We need action now. We are still 7000 down on staff numbers. And

:33:54. > :33:57.those officers and needs to be increased now. It is not safe for

:33:58. > :34:03.them to go into work and no one can say that it is not safe to go into

:34:04. > :34:07.work for them and not safe for prisoners themselves. We need more

:34:08. > :34:12.action today, can I ask you what you intend to do now as a matter of this

:34:13. > :34:16.urgent situation? I intend to do precisely nothing other than to ask

:34:17. > :34:22.the Minister to sell the House what he and the Government will do? --.

:34:23. > :34:29.One of the issues I've not mentioned today and I said to the honourable

:34:30. > :34:35.lady, we are significantly improving prison officer training. That has

:34:36. > :34:37.gone up from six weeks to ten weeks and we are giving officers the

:34:38. > :34:43.additional skills that they will need to cope in this situation. The

:34:44. > :34:49.training, on its own, is of course not enough, which is why I reiterate

:34:50. > :34:52.to hurt the commitments I've read already seven times to date:

:34:53. > :34:58.recruiting at the rate we are already recruiting to get up to the

:34:59. > :35:01.benchmark level. The number of vacancies, December 2014, it was 5%

:35:02. > :35:10.of prison officers, it is now 2%, I want to see that 0%. I've heard

:35:11. > :35:14.these remarks through the Minister so many times, too often to have any

:35:15. > :35:18.confidence at all that is going to do anything about this problem. And

:35:19. > :35:21.this is a problem of this Government's making, when they let

:35:22. > :35:25.far too many officers go in the first half of the last parliament.

:35:26. > :35:30.Now he's got a problem, it is not just about numbers, but about

:35:31. > :35:35.experience of staff. He's got a situation where you have experienced

:35:36. > :35:39.inmates and inexperienced staff and this is what happens as a result.

:35:40. > :35:43.What is it going to do, not just to get numbers in, but to make sure

:35:44. > :35:49.they are properly trained, supported, then toured, developed

:35:50. > :35:53.and assisted in their early years of learning jail aircraft? Because if

:35:54. > :35:59.it carries on like he is now, these problems will never, ever be

:36:00. > :36:04.resolved on his watch. She is right what she says about the importance

:36:05. > :36:09.of jail craft. But I would point to the recent Chief Inspector's report

:36:10. > :36:14.where the chief inspector noted that the new officers were treated as an

:36:15. > :36:19.asset and enthusiasm and skills they were bringing, rather than being

:36:20. > :36:23.seen as on the privation period and not able to add that much. So I

:36:24. > :36:26.think if establishments get the right attitude and use the

:36:27. > :36:36.enthusiasm of the new recruits, that is helpful. He's a very interesting

:36:37. > :36:40.debates, this, particularly when we talk about how people are affected

:36:41. > :36:43.on all sides of this debate, whether they work in prisons are all

:36:44. > :36:48.prisoners or their families outside world about the conditions within

:36:49. > :36:51.the prison. Like my honourable friend, I have constituents, to make

:36:52. > :36:57.comments about Strangeways prison in Manchester, they feel there is a

:36:58. > :37:00.culture in place to make sure mental health is seen as positive for the

:37:01. > :37:05.prison but not Sunderland is to be controlled. Not Sunderland easily

:37:06. > :37:11.controlled because of the targets of the Prime Minister. While I visit

:37:12. > :37:14.HMP Manchester in the honourable gentleman's constituency I would

:37:15. > :37:18.like to be give its the prison officers at their wits and very

:37:19. > :37:24.challenging prison officers. I can tell him that we are absolutely

:37:25. > :37:29.committed to improving mental health and HS England is taking on an extra

:37:30. > :37:31.20 case managers at this year for adult skua services, we have

:37:32. > :37:37.co-commissioning coming up and we take the mental health issues very

:37:38. > :37:43.seriously. The Minister is well aware of the inquiry into prison

:37:44. > :37:47.safety with adjusted Select Committee which addresses of

:37:48. > :37:51.islands. On Friday, members may have noticed that the new Dutch revenues

:37:52. > :37:55.slipped out that Medway STC which was amiss when by group for Security

:37:56. > :38:01.as now, into the Ministry of Justice hands. The next day, the report come

:38:02. > :38:05.out on trains be, showing endemic use of restraint. So should be the

:38:06. > :38:09.logical conclusion is that the Minister of Justice should now take

:38:10. > :38:12.over rains? I have a sense of the members will be approaching the

:38:13. > :38:15.chair of the Backbench Business Committee and seeking a debate on

:38:16. > :38:18.these matters. I said because quite a number of what we have just heard

:38:19. > :38:22.have been nearer to debates contributions than to questions.

:38:23. > :38:29.Perhaps I can just make that point gently. As far as Medway is

:38:30. > :38:35.concerned, all governments do not comment on leaks, wherever they may,

:38:36. > :38:39.from and we will have more to say on the Medway in due course and indeed

:38:40. > :38:44.on all three secure training centres, because the honourable lady

:38:45. > :38:51.is right that some of the issues apply to Medway clearly have

:38:52. > :38:58.relevance across all three STC 's. The honourable member already

:38:59. > :39:02.mentioned Spice. Officers in my constituency have ended up on sick

:39:03. > :39:06.leave because of the effects of smoke from this substance. Others

:39:07. > :39:09.have been injured, trying to deal with violent prisoners, some taken

:39:10. > :39:12.to hospital after taking the substance putting officers at risk.

:39:13. > :39:14.When will the Government get the right systems in place to stop the

:39:15. > :39:28.substance is getting What I would say to the noble

:39:29. > :39:35.gentleman is also investing in new technology and trying a full body

:39:36. > :39:40.scanner to detect types of psychoactive substances concealed in

:39:41. > :39:44.the body. I also believe in time the smoking ban, when rolled out to

:39:45. > :39:48.prisons in his area and across the country, will help, because he will

:39:49. > :39:58.know that unfortunately Spice is often openly smoked with prisoners

:39:59. > :40:02.pretending it is tobacco. Prison officers at HMP Lancaster Farms will

:40:03. > :40:07.have watched the events at Wormwood Scrubs with trepidation because the

:40:08. > :40:12.situation there is reflected across the country. The situation at

:40:13. > :40:15.Lancaster Farms was so bad that prison officers went to the local

:40:16. > :40:19.paper to expose the issue of drugs in prisons and a need for more

:40:20. > :40:23.prison officers. Will the Minister now commit to putting more money

:40:24. > :40:30.into prison staffing so the staff can go to work and feel safe? I

:40:31. > :40:33.would point out to the Honourable Lady that the Prison Officers'

:40:34. > :40:37.Association reached an agreement with the National Offender

:40:38. > :40:41.Management Service, and we will absolutely keep all the issues at

:40:42. > :40:46.Wormwood Scrubs under review. As I have said to her we are continuing

:40:47. > :40:49.to spend more money on prison officers to recruit up to the

:40:50. > :40:54.benchmark, we will carry on recruiting at the rate we have been

:40:55. > :40:58.for the last few years. I have shared the concern of many

:40:59. > :41:01.Honourable members about the situation involving prisoners with

:41:02. > :41:06.mental health issues and the risks they pose to themselves and others

:41:07. > :41:11.and are faced by them by prisons and the affect staffing cuts are having

:41:12. > :41:15.on that. I have been contact about a constituent of mine who has in due

:41:16. > :41:19.order lengthy bureaucratic process about transfer to a mental health

:41:20. > :41:24.unit. I am sorry to say his family had called this month telling them

:41:25. > :41:29.he had killed himself, only to be told half an hour later that he

:41:30. > :41:33.hadn't. That is an extraordinary situation and I would like to see

:41:34. > :41:38.the Minister Investec get in that fully and looking very closely at

:41:39. > :41:41.the cases being made for him to be transferred away from HMP Birmingham

:41:42. > :41:44.where he is currently being held. I would like to apologise to the

:41:45. > :41:48.family through the Honourable Gentleman for being given terrible

:41:49. > :41:55.news like that which clearly wasn't true, and if you would like to write

:41:56. > :41:58.to me again or come and see me about that issue I would be more than

:41:59. > :42:02.happy to further discuss it. I am grateful to the Minister and

:42:03. > :42:13.colleagues. Statement, the Secretary of State for Education. Secretary

:42:14. > :42:17.Nicky Morgan. Mr Speaker, with permission I would like to make a

:42:18. > :42:22.statement on all schools becoming academies. In our March White Paper,

:42:23. > :42:27.educational excellence everywhere, I set out this Government's vision to

:42:28. > :42:29.continue the rise of educational standards throughout this

:42:30. > :42:33.Parliament. We are committed to building on the reforms of the last

:42:34. > :42:36.six years which have led to one point for me in more children being

:42:37. > :42:39.taught in good and outstanding schools, but we are not content to

:42:40. > :42:47.stop there. One comment formally and is a start but not enough. -- 1.4

:42:48. > :42:51.million. We need to deliver a great education to every child, it is what

:42:52. > :42:55.we owe the next generation to give them the tools to realise every

:42:56. > :42:59.ounce of their potential. The White Paper was called educational

:43:00. > :43:03.excellence everywhere for a reason. For me the everywhere is

:43:04. > :43:07.non-negotiable. In the White Paper for example we set out plans for

:43:08. > :43:15.achieving excellence areas, where we will focus on in French to areas of

:43:16. > :43:20.underperformance. It outlines how we want the teaching profession or to

:43:21. > :43:22.take responsible for teacher accreditation and set high

:43:23. > :43:28.expectations for every child with a world leading knowledge-based

:43:29. > :43:32.curriculum. The truly school led self improving system learning from

:43:33. > :43:36.the best across the world and preparing the next-generation to

:43:37. > :43:39.compete on the global stage. The fully academisation has attracted

:43:40. > :43:47.most attention. Over the last few weeks I have spoken to many people

:43:48. > :43:51.on both sides of the House as well as school leaders, representatives

:43:52. > :43:56.and parents. It is clear though that the strength and importance of

:43:57. > :43:59.academies is widely recognised. There is recognition of greater

:44:00. > :44:05.responsibility for the school system in the hands of school leaders. But

:44:06. > :44:09.let me be clear, we firmly believe schools becoming more autonomous and

:44:10. > :44:14.directly accountable for their results raises standards. Academies

:44:15. > :44:19.are the vehicle which allow schools to innovate with the credit can, set

:44:20. > :44:22.pay and conditions of staff and bring about greater collaboration

:44:23. > :44:27.with other schools. We still want every school to become an academy by

:44:28. > :44:30.2022. But we always intended this to be a six-year process in which good

:44:31. > :44:34.schools could take their own decisions about their future as

:44:35. > :44:39.academies. But we understand the concerns raised about a hard

:44:40. > :44:43.deadline and legislating for a blanket power to continue academy

:44:44. > :44:47.orders. That is why I announced on Friday we decided it is not

:44:48. > :44:53.necessary to take blanket powers to convert good schools to academies

:44:54. > :44:59.that this time. In March, a record high of 227 schools chose to apply

:45:00. > :45:03.for academy status, showing clearly wet momentum lies as school leaders,

:45:04. > :45:07.parents, governors and teachers across the country embraced the

:45:08. > :45:12.benefits that being an academy brings. Since then we have issued

:45:13. > :45:24.more than 104 Academy Award is to underperforming schools, meaning the

:45:25. > :45:30.airwaves this weekend to crow about a victory will find themselves

:45:31. > :45:35.sorely disappointed. There will be no retreat from our mission to give

:45:36. > :45:39.every child the best start in life and build an education system led by

:45:40. > :45:43.school leaders and teachers on the front line, running their own

:45:44. > :45:48.schools as academies. The education adoption Act 2016 already enables us

:45:49. > :45:54.to rapidly converts failing schools and those coasting where they can

:45:55. > :45:58.benefit from a strong sponsor. Now it is easier to respond strictly and

:45:59. > :46:02.professionally to underperforming schools, and they will not be

:46:03. > :46:06.allowed to languish unchallenged for years. As I said in the White Paper

:46:07. > :46:10.and have subsequently argued. The most pressing need is to boost

:46:11. > :46:15.standards for those in the worst local authorities and to provide for

:46:16. > :46:18.schools in local authority is likely to become unviable. So instead of a

:46:19. > :46:23.blanket power to convert all schools we will seek powers in two specific

:46:24. > :46:26.circumstances where it is clear that the case for conversion is pressing.

:46:27. > :46:30.In the worst performing local authorities we need more decisive

:46:31. > :46:34.action so a new system led by outstanding schools can take their

:46:35. > :46:38.place. Similarly because of the pace of ademisation in some areas it will

:46:39. > :46:46.becoming creasing wee difficult for local authorities to have the

:46:47. > :46:49.ability to offer schools necessary support, and there will be a need to

:46:50. > :46:51.ensure the schools are not dependent on an unviable local authority. We

:46:52. > :46:55.will seek provisions to convert schools in the lowest performing

:46:56. > :46:57.local authorities to academy status. This may involve conversion of good

:46:58. > :47:02.and outstanding schools in some circumstances when they have not

:47:03. > :47:05.chosen it, but the need for action in these limited circumstances is

:47:06. > :47:08.clear because of the considerable risk to the standard of education

:47:09. > :47:13.young people in those schools receive as a local authority is

:47:14. > :47:17.unable to guarantee continued success or improvement. We will

:47:18. > :47:21.consult on these engraved -- arrangements including the

:47:22. > :47:25.threshold, and I make it clear that the definition of thresholds will be

:47:26. > :47:29.the subject of an affirmative resolution in this House. I would

:47:30. > :47:33.like to assure Honourable members on the concern about how we protect

:47:34. > :47:38.small schools especially in all areas. I have already made it clear

:47:39. > :47:43.that no small rural schools will close as a result of more schools

:47:44. > :47:46.becoming academies. There is already a statuary presumption against rural

:47:47. > :47:54.school closures but we will go further. Where small rural schools

:47:55. > :47:58.are converting to academy status we will ensure their protection. Both

:47:59. > :48:02.local and national Government will have to agree before a change can be

:48:03. > :48:07.made. There will also be support to help rural primary schools through

:48:08. > :48:11.conversion and a fund to ensure expert support and advice. Why will

:48:12. > :48:14.want every school to become an academy we will not compel

:48:15. > :48:19.successful schools to join multi-academy trusts. We expect most

:48:20. > :48:23.schools will form local clusters of trusts, but if the leadership of the

:48:24. > :48:28.successful school does not wish to enter a relationship with other

:48:29. > :48:33.schools we trust them to make the decision and will not force them to

:48:34. > :48:37.do so. Small schools will be able to convert to stand-alone academies. I

:48:38. > :48:41.began by saying our goal has not changed. This Government will

:48:42. > :48:44.continue to prioritise the interest of young people getting the best

:48:45. > :48:47.start in life with an excellent education over the vested interest

:48:48. > :48:53.of those who seek to oppose the lifting of standards and the rooting

:48:54. > :48:57.out of educational underperformance. Those same vested interests who

:48:58. > :49:03.allowed schools to languish for years unchallenged and unchanged

:49:04. > :49:07.until the academies programme by the last Labour Government. Our work to

:49:08. > :49:12.improve will continue apace. We will empower school leaders and raise

:49:13. > :49:16.standards and hold high expectations for every child. We will establish a

:49:17. > :49:20.fair national funding formula for schools so young people everywhere

:49:21. > :49:23.get the funding they deserve and continue to work towards a system

:49:24. > :49:27.where all schools are run and led by the people that know them best in

:49:28. > :49:31.the way that works for their pupils as academies. These reforms will

:49:32. > :49:37.transform the education system and ensure that we give every child and

:49:38. > :49:40.excellent education so they have the opportunity to fulfil their

:49:41. > :49:49.potential. I commend this statement to the House. Me I thank the

:49:50. > :49:53.Secretary of State for advance notice of the statement. It is good

:49:54. > :49:58.to see that despite her best efforts this U-turn is getting be airing it

:49:59. > :50:02.deserves today. What she announced on Friday was a significant and

:50:03. > :50:06.welcome climb-down. However she wants to dress it up, dropping her

:50:07. > :50:11.desire to force all schools to become academies by her arbitrary

:50:12. > :50:14.deadline of 2022 is a key concession. School leaders should

:50:15. > :50:25.take it as a very clear signal that the foot is off their throat, and

:50:26. > :50:27.they shouldn't feel they need to jump before being pushed. In

:50:28. > :50:29.achieving this welcome move can I thank the very broad Alliance who

:50:30. > :50:32.joined us in making the arguments? That headteachers who made their

:50:33. > :50:35.collective voice clear last weekend, parents, governors, teachers, local

:50:36. > :50:40.Government leaders and Honourable members from across the House who

:50:41. > :50:43.have made very thoughtful and important interventions in recent

:50:44. > :50:47.weeks. I would have thought given the scale and breadth of the

:50:48. > :50:51.opposition to her plans and the huge sense of panic and upheaval they

:50:52. > :50:55.have cause to school leaders, she might have shown a little more

:50:56. > :51:01.humility in her statement today. If I were her, I would at least

:51:02. > :51:07.apologise. But I have to say, Mr Speaker, after her statement today,

:51:08. > :51:11.we are left more confused about what her policy actually is. She says her

:51:12. > :51:15.aim remains the same but without the means. Although the Secretary of

:51:16. > :51:18.State has conceded on the politically daft idea of forcing

:51:19. > :51:22.good on outstanding schools to become academies against their

:51:23. > :51:26.wishes, she still holds the ambition that all schools will become

:51:27. > :51:31.academies, but yet again, today, she has failed to make a single decent

:51:32. > :51:35.argument as to why this ambition is desirable in the first place.

:51:36. > :51:39.Perhaps this is because despite her claims to be in listening mode, the

:51:40. > :51:45.Secretary of State has her fingers in her ears, out of touch with head,

:51:46. > :51:51.parents and teachers. And she has failed to address the serious

:51:52. > :51:57.concerns raised. Where his evidence that ademisation is the panacea for

:51:58. > :52:01.school improvement? Where is the choice or autonomy or innovation in

:52:02. > :52:05.a one size fits all approach? Is there sufficient capacity and

:52:06. > :52:11.accountability in the academy system to ensure best practice, not poor

:52:12. > :52:15.practice, is being spread? These questions remain as she seeks

:52:16. > :52:18.further powers to speed up the pace of ademisation. On school

:52:19. > :52:25.improvement, she must now take stock of the evidence. The education

:52:26. > :52:29.select committee recommended she did that. Sir Michael Wilshaw found

:52:30. > :52:34.serious concerns in many chains. Research by the Sutton trust found a

:52:35. > :52:39.mixed picture in performance by academy chains and there is no

:52:40. > :52:42.evidence that academisation in and of itself leads to school

:52:43. > :52:49.improvement. Indeed, an analysis published today by the PWC shows..

:52:50. > :52:54.Members might want to listen to this... Shows that only three of the

:52:55. > :52:58.biggest academy chains get a positive value added rating, and

:52:59. > :53:05.this I think is quite startling statistic, just one of the 26th

:53:06. > :53:11.biggest primary sponsors achieves above the national average. While

:53:12. > :53:15.there is much excellence, she must not continue making dubious

:53:16. > :53:23.arguments about cause and effect without the evidence. Concerns of a

:53:24. > :53:36.one size fits all policy as expressed by Councillor Paul Carter,

:53:37. > :53:42.still apply. As do those... As Lord Kenneth Baker raised, there are

:53:43. > :53:46.issues in the pressures to take on new academies. She failed to want

:53:47. > :53:51.the key questions of parents and their right to remain on governing

:53:52. > :53:56.bodies of academies. But perhaps the biggest concern we all have is about

:53:57. > :54:06.her direction and her fixation with structures, not standards. Whilst

:54:07. > :54:11.chaos reigns all around her, and while heads are dealing with what

:54:12. > :54:16.they described as very challenging times, she wants to put all the

:54:17. > :54:22.energies of her department into more structural change for which there is

:54:23. > :54:24.little evidence, insufficient capacity and inadequate

:54:25. > :54:29.accountability. Wouldn't she be better advised sorting out the utter

:54:30. > :54:33.chaos besetting primary assessment or ensuring the massively behind

:54:34. > :54:37.schedule new GCSEs are delivered well and on time, or how about

:54:38. > :54:44.dealing with the chronic shortage of teachers she has caused or getting a

:54:45. > :54:46.proper strategy for local place planning, or instead of simply doing

:54:47. > :54:50.the Chancellor's bidding, hats she could fight was on school budgets

:54:51. > :55:00.which are facing real terms cuts that the first time 20 years.

:55:01. > :55:14.change are a better destruction and at worst, will damage standards. --

:55:15. > :55:18.run to best a distraction. Thank you, Mr Speaker, and I see the

:55:19. > :55:23.Shadow Education Secretary was as constructive and positive as always.

:55:24. > :55:31.Let me deal with some of the issues that she raised. She asked about the

:55:32. > :55:35.support for academies and she will know if she's read the evidence I

:55:36. > :55:39.gave to the recent hearing of the education Select Committee that we

:55:40. > :55:43.went there in great detail, I'm sure also seen a long letter I sent to

:55:44. > :55:46.the end duty about the international evidence. But let me just 82-macro

:55:47. > :55:54.statistics. Primary sponsored academies are making substantial

:55:55. > :55:59.gains. Pupils are achieving well and those academies in one academia have

:56:00. > :56:05.seen results improved by five percentage points. She asked about

:56:06. > :56:15.the views of the chief inspector. Well, I'm sure if she had... Too

:56:16. > :56:22.much noise. Both sides and every member must be heard. Thank you, Mr

:56:23. > :56:26.Speaker. It's extraordinary how people don't want to hear any

:56:27. > :56:30.arguments against them... Will so Michael Wilshaw, she will have seen

:56:31. > :56:33.a letter from Ofsted in which he said I fully support the

:56:34. > :56:36.Government's ambition to great a more diverse and autonomous school

:56:37. > :56:40.system as I said my latest annual report, academisation can meet rapid

:56:41. > :56:44.improvement and I firmly believe there is the right him autonomously

:56:45. > :56:47.front-line. She mentions the education Select Committee reports

:56:48. > :56:50.from 2040, published last year, which said academy sponsorship has

:56:51. > :56:54.encouraged others on a day-to-day contributor of individuals not

:56:55. > :56:57.previously involved in education laid I challenged and maintained

:56:58. > :57:02.schools to improve or face replacement by the insurgent academy

:57:03. > :57:05.model. Mr Speaker, it is extraordinary it took until the

:57:06. > :57:13.final centres for her to talk about standards. As usual, there is no

:57:14. > :57:22.mention of pupils, standards, or aspiration. The honourable lady has

:57:23. > :57:27.a nine months... I've set hours out clearly in this white paper and she

:57:28. > :57:32.needs to now do the same if she has any hope of office. Mr Speaker, we

:57:33. > :57:35.know what they's Labour Party is all about, it is about taking sides.

:57:36. > :57:40.That's when they told us in the local elections and today, they have

:57:41. > :57:44.picked their side. They picked up the side of vested interest in the

:57:45. > :57:47.status quo, the side of no change, of those who want to push back the

:57:48. > :58:01.tide of progress and return to Labour's bad old days. Well, I say

:58:02. > :58:04.no. These side of higher standards and aspirations, of progress and

:58:05. > :58:15.reform. The side of educational excellence for all.

:58:16. > :58:21.The chief inspector has been cited already this afternoon. I draw the

:58:22. > :58:25.holes's attention to his report of 2013, the long tail of

:58:26. > :58:29.underachievement, where he cited the big problem of having too many

:58:30. > :58:31.primary schools coasting and not delivering adequate teaching in

:58:32. > :58:35.maths and English and other subjects. Many of those schools are

:58:36. > :58:39.a local authority areas which could improve generally. So it's

:58:40. > :58:42.absolutely right to focus on those local authorities and make sure we

:58:43. > :58:46.do deliver for all young children, most of who we do not go to

:58:47. > :58:48.academies and primary school, because there are not enough primary

:58:49. > :58:53.schools in that category. So therefore I welcome this data meant

:58:54. > :58:59.to focus on the school that really matter and above all, the local

:59:00. > :59:04.authorities. Can by the chairman of the education Select Committee and

:59:05. > :59:07.it was a pleasure to visit his school in Stroud, I know he is

:59:08. > :59:10.committed to the lifting of educational standards for young

:59:11. > :59:14.people. It it not telling, that rather than working with the

:59:15. > :59:25.committee, the honourable lady just tried to shout him down. Many school

:59:26. > :59:31.communities will also welcome today's announcement. Whilst I like

:59:32. > :59:35.many teachers across these isles would love to think that the

:59:36. > :59:38.Government doesn't listen to teachers, the reality seems to be

:59:39. > :59:42.that this embarrassing U-turn on a centrepiece of Budget announcement

:59:43. > :59:49.has been brought about by a handful of the Government's backbenchers.

:59:50. > :59:54.Those who have the greatest impact on the success of a school teachers

:59:55. > :59:58.and a first-rate headteacher can turn the school around regardless of

:59:59. > :00:05.whether or not it is an academy. But there's no doubt that this grand

:00:06. > :00:07.plan has caused great anxiety and teachers who are already struggling

:00:08. > :00:16.with severe workload issues have had an additional burden placed upon

:00:17. > :00:20.them by the academisation plan. The Secretary of State says academies

:00:21. > :00:28.allow schools the freedom to innovate with the curriculum. Order,

:00:29. > :00:33.order! Mr Austin, you are as noisy now as you were the debating chamber

:00:34. > :00:37.of the University Essex students union, when you noisily and

:00:38. > :00:48.belligerently and is courteously heckled a mere 30 years ago!

:00:49. > :00:58.Order! Let me just say, the honourable lady must be heard with

:00:59. > :01:02.courtesy and all members must be heard. But can I just gently say to

:01:03. > :01:08.the honourable lady, her chance of getting a courteous hearing will be

:01:09. > :01:22.increased if rather than making a statement she asks a question. The

:01:23. > :01:25.ability of schools to set their own scales and there is concern about

:01:26. > :01:32.the long-term impact of academies will mean a higher salaries and

:01:33. > :01:40.better terms and conditions and some -- in some better funded academies.

:01:41. > :01:47.What consideration has she given... I am glad I use the House. What

:01:48. > :01:53.consideration has she given to teacher recruitment in areas in

:01:54. > :02:01.terms of to attract the teachers they need to raise attainment? We in

:02:02. > :02:06.the SNP are firmly committed to a national bargaining in public

:02:07. > :02:13.sector. How will the Secretary of State ensure that by abandoning

:02:14. > :02:16.nationally agreed pays scales -- pay scales this will not affect

:02:17. > :02:24.recruitment and retention in more challenging schools? Can I thank the

:02:25. > :02:29.honourable lady for that long question. And let me just say that I

:02:30. > :02:32.agree with the most important thing we can do in our classrooms is to

:02:33. > :02:36.make sure the quality of teaching is at its absolute highest and that is

:02:37. > :02:41.why we have more teachers in our schools and we have ever had before.

:02:42. > :02:45.Let me also say in terms of recruitment, I suggest that she will

:02:46. > :02:48.see a lot of the answers to her questions are in the white paper.

:02:49. > :02:50.The introduction to achieving excellent areas covered in

:02:51. > :02:53.traditional national teaching service could be setting up of

:02:54. > :02:57.career provision for teachers got the supported for a college of

:02:58. > :02:59.teaching. Let me also say to her that it has to be working now that

:03:00. > :03:03.in Scotland there are now fewer features than there were when the

:03:04. > :03:06.SNP came to power and a bigger gap between the Advantest and the

:03:07. > :03:13.disadvantaged. And me also say that with the election of Ruth Davidson,

:03:14. > :03:21.her party needs to be held to account. I would point other members

:03:22. > :03:24.who came into the chamber after the urgent questions started and there

:03:25. > :03:28.were quite a number of them, should not expect to be called. Should not

:03:29. > :03:40.expect to be called in pursuit of a question with? At the end of it. I

:03:41. > :03:44.turned of course to Sir Alan Duncan. I have to say, it is a matter of

:03:45. > :03:47.regret at all in such an important issue, the shadow Secretary of State

:03:48. > :03:53.did rather let herself down this afternoon. Those of us concerned

:03:54. > :04:00.with this issue have expressed concerns about compulsion of course,

:04:01. > :04:04.but also about planning for school places, transport across changing

:04:05. > :04:09.catchment areas and what happens when there is a failing school with

:04:10. > :04:13.no suitable academy to take it over. Can I just say I think the House is

:04:14. > :04:16.grateful to the Secretary of State for having listened and we would now

:04:17. > :04:20.urge her to look at these which might be described as the final

:04:21. > :04:24.pieces in the academisation jigsaw we very much appreciate the tone and

:04:25. > :04:30.the construction of a statement this afternoon. Can I thank my neighbour

:04:31. > :04:34.am I right honourable friend very much indeed for his statement. He

:04:35. > :04:40.raises some very important issues which we have addressed in the white

:04:41. > :04:44.paper in the sense that they highlighted the difficult issues

:04:45. > :04:48.around pays planning but also transport and we need to with local

:04:49. > :04:52.authorities, the local Government Association and others to ensure we

:04:53. > :04:55.get it right. But I do think it has to be that if schools are autonomous

:04:56. > :05:05.we must give that just to the front line in dealing with difficult

:05:06. > :05:13.issues. What hope is there for local Government or community involvement

:05:14. > :05:17.in new multi-Academy trusts? I thank the right honourable gentleman and

:05:18. > :05:23.the answer is, a lot. We set out in the white paper plans for those from

:05:24. > :05:26.local authorities to many who are spinning out their services as well

:05:27. > :05:29.setting up multi-Academy trusts. There are limits on the ownership

:05:30. > :05:33.and a lot of local authorities are exploring options whereby they set

:05:34. > :05:37.up a trust, but they had the schools within that trust also be of the

:05:38. > :05:39.trust. That is a really stronger model and builds on the great

:05:40. > :05:47.collaboration we are already seeing in our education system. ... The

:05:48. > :05:52.constructive approach she has taken throughout this debate. And

:05:53. > :05:59.particularly welcome her recognition that stand-alone academies or small

:06:00. > :06:02.multi-Academy trusts can bring the benefits of autonomy whilst also

:06:03. > :06:07.keeping schools in touch with the communities they serve. Well, can I

:06:08. > :06:12.thank my right honourable friend for the conversations we have had, I

:06:13. > :06:16.know he absolutely committed to high educational standards and is it's

:06:17. > :06:20.truly fortunate to represent a very high performing local authority and

:06:21. > :06:29.he and I are both -- but for the same opportunities for all children

:06:30. > :06:34.in the country. The Secretary of State might know that in the early

:06:35. > :06:38.days of the ideas of academies I had some help from the Government in

:06:39. > :06:41.terms of refining the method. It was a good method, where schools were

:06:42. > :06:49.failing, we used academies to ensure that quickly we ended it. This

:06:50. > :06:55.present method she is extolling is a perversion of the academy model that

:06:56. > :06:58.we introduced. And I say this in anger, that the model of education

:06:59. > :07:06.she is giving this country is one doomed to fail. The model of

:07:07. > :07:09.education is given a 1.4 million children the opportunity to be in

:07:10. > :07:23.good and outstanding schools, we want to go further. Thank you, Mr

:07:24. > :07:26.Speaker. May I urge the Secretary of State to stick to her guns. There is

:07:27. > :07:31.evidence that other social mobility index which sadly shows that my

:07:32. > :07:34.constituency has some of the poorest opportunities for the poorest

:07:35. > :07:37.children. Can I urge you to stick to her guns and ensure her focus is on

:07:38. > :07:47.standards for those who need it most. She is absolutely right to say

:07:48. > :07:50.this is about standards for all. I standards for all, but particularly

:07:51. > :07:52.for those for whom education is a great life transformer. And if we

:07:53. > :07:57.don't get this right, we are losing out as a country other children are

:07:58. > :08:00.losing out. She and I have discussed the opportunity for her local area

:08:01. > :08:04.to set to be achieving excellent pilots and I look forward to

:08:05. > :08:07.discussing that again. Some colleagues have a quaint idea about

:08:08. > :08:11.timekeeping. There's one honourable member who was six minutes later

:08:12. > :08:13.still will not take my hint. I do not wish to embarrass him, but he

:08:14. > :08:24.should not be standing! Pretty straightforward!

:08:25. > :08:30.Thank you, Mr Speaker. I believe the Secretary of State is not sticking

:08:31. > :08:36.so guns. I welcome her change of heart, the U-turn she has announced.

:08:37. > :08:39.Will she also consider another ill-advised proposal in the white

:08:40. > :08:45.paper, the abolition of requirements for school star parents covered us?

:08:46. > :08:48.Will she reconsider that as well? We discussed this when I gave evidence

:08:49. > :08:52.to the education Select Committee. We've been clear that there is a

:08:53. > :08:55.role for parents governors, we expect trustable star parents

:08:56. > :09:00.governors and also think it is not the only way for parents to be

:09:01. > :09:00.involved. A much better, more meaningful engagement can be

:09:01. > :09:13.achieved. Following on from that, I thank my

:09:14. > :09:17.Right Honourable Friend for not listening about compelling academy

:09:18. > :09:22.eyes say Sinn but because parent governors are so vital to the

:09:23. > :09:27.excellence of schools, how will she ensure parental input is continued,

:09:28. > :09:31.because that is part of excellence. Can I thank my Honourable Friend. We

:09:32. > :09:35.are making it an expectation that parents will be heavily involved,

:09:36. > :09:42.not just through being governors but also through things like the

:09:43. > :09:46.Honourable Member said recently, parent councils. She is right saying

:09:47. > :09:54.parent governors make a huge contribution. I know because I am

:09:55. > :09:59.married to one. I feel rather embarrassed for the Minister as they

:10:00. > :10:04.tried to sneak through this U-turn during one of the most racist

:10:05. > :10:08.campaigns we have ever seen in the capital. Toby Young admitted he had

:10:09. > :10:13.been arrogant and regretted criticising teachers, state schools

:10:14. > :10:17.and local education authorities. Will the Minister Act knowledge that

:10:18. > :10:23.the teachers, the Labour Party, the students and the parents, were right

:10:24. > :10:28.and she was wrong? I think the Honourable Lady rather let herself

:10:29. > :10:32.down by that patronising question, if I might say. I would be very

:10:33. > :10:36.clear, all the way along since the first day of my appointment, but the

:10:37. > :10:40.most important people in our sister mother teachers, quality teachers

:10:41. > :10:44.are the single most important thing that helps young people make

:10:45. > :10:47.standards. The truth is that if any Government minister puts proposals

:10:48. > :10:50.forward we are likely to have comments but that doesn't mean we

:10:51. > :10:57.shouldn't put proposals forward. That is not the person I am. When I

:10:58. > :11:02.said last week I would not leave the job half done, I will not leave the

:11:03. > :11:05.job half done. Can I welcome the Secretary of State's comments on

:11:06. > :11:10.support for small rural schools but also welcome her comments and

:11:11. > :11:14.commitment to funding review. Does she agree with me that funding

:11:15. > :11:18.review gives us the opportunity to address the deep unfairness in the

:11:19. > :11:25.funding system that has left schools in places like or more underfunded

:11:26. > :11:29.too long? We absolutely remain committed to having had national

:11:30. > :11:34.funding formula review. It cannot be right to have 152 different formulas

:11:35. > :11:37.operating across the country and I talked about a strong consistent

:11:38. > :11:45.educational system across the country, which must mean a strong,

:11:46. > :11:53.consistent funding system. Can the Minister satisfy why she objects to

:11:54. > :11:55.the line put across in the Times today by PricewaterhouseCoopers,

:11:56. > :12:00.presumably a vested interest, to argue that it had my age and is

:12:01. > :12:10.neither a necessary nor sufficient condition? -- Cadamuro station.

:12:11. > :12:16.Plenty of evidence can be cited in favour. I have pointed to evidence I

:12:17. > :12:25.have already talked about which shows the benefits of autonomy our

:12:26. > :12:27.school system. I pay tribute to the Secretary of State for listening to

:12:28. > :12:32.backbenchers. I have been a vocal critic but found her willingness to

:12:33. > :12:36.engage on this issue refreshing. Can she confirmed that she will continue

:12:37. > :12:41.to engage with parents and teachers as she pursues our vision to improve

:12:42. > :12:47.education that every child of all backgrounds? He has raised some

:12:48. > :12:51.important points. It has been a pleasure to talk to him and all

:12:52. > :12:58.colleagues on all sides of the House. I look forward to continuing

:12:59. > :13:04.that conversation. I am proud to represent a town with some of the

:13:05. > :13:08.country, and my concern about the Secretary of State's announcement is

:13:09. > :13:13.it doesn't answer the question schools of all kinds, academies and

:13:14. > :13:18.local authority schools, and parents, ask me. What parents say

:13:19. > :13:24.is, how can we guarantee that there is a school place for my child

:13:25. > :13:28.nearby, and what schools say to me is, how can I guarantee there is a

:13:29. > :13:33.good quality teacher in front of every class. Both of those problems,

:13:34. > :13:37.we haven't heard a solution to. What does she offer? She needs to read

:13:38. > :13:43.the white paper, but let me point out that we have the highest number

:13:44. > :13:48.of teachers ever in the profession and have created 600,000 more places

:13:49. > :13:52.since 2010, when her party was in power, they took out of the system

:13:53. > :14:00.200,000 places at the time of the baby boom. Can I join colleagues in

:14:01. > :14:06.congratulating the Secretary of State. Congratulating her on her

:14:07. > :14:11.statement on the way she has engaged with colleagues from across the

:14:12. > :14:14.House. The select committee described a healthy tension between

:14:15. > :14:18.local authority schools and work hadn't -- academy schools which

:14:19. > :14:23.helped contribute to 1.4 million fewer children being at week

:14:24. > :14:26.schools. But she agree that if local authorities do manage to deliver

:14:27. > :14:33.outstanding schools and excellent intervention that they can continue?

:14:34. > :14:37.Can I thank my Honourable Friend for the conversations we have had. Yes

:14:38. > :14:42.of course, this is all about the lifting of standards, ensuring no

:14:43. > :14:46.child is in a school that is failing or underperforming, and of course,

:14:47. > :14:49.if a child is in a good school being supported by a strong local

:14:50. > :14:56.authority, frankly I want them to get on with doing that. The Chief

:14:57. > :15:01.inspector said he would look forward to a more diverse system, but under

:15:02. > :15:07.the vision the Secretary of State has put out, how will changing all

:15:08. > :15:11.schools to the same system be more diverse? And by killing off the

:15:12. > :15:15.alternatives in terms of our local education authorities being denied

:15:16. > :15:20.of funds to provide the sort of services which have improved schools

:15:21. > :15:26.in burrows like my own, how will that facilitate improvement? And the

:15:27. > :15:33.last thing, what will happen to schools which are languishing in

:15:34. > :15:36.poor, failing Academy trusts? I think there were three questions

:15:37. > :15:41.that one question but I will give the Member of the education select

:15:42. > :15:45.committee the benefit of the doubt. Firstly, his last question, we take

:15:46. > :15:49.swift action in the case of academies that are failing.

:15:50. > :15:54.Commissioners have already brokered over 100 schools and issued 94

:15:55. > :15:58.warning notices. His question shows a worrying lack of understanding

:15:59. > :16:02.about what it is that we are doing, because there has been a one size

:16:03. > :16:12.fits all system, which was local education authority control. We are

:16:13. > :16:14.now there will be freedom for schools to decide the right future

:16:15. > :16:17.for them. That could be continuing in a stronger growth 30 but it could

:16:18. > :16:20.turn into a stand alone Academy, a small cluster, a bigger trust, a

:16:21. > :16:27.diocesan trust, they are free to make the decision right for them and

:16:28. > :16:30.their pupils. Can I also welcome the secretary of state's readiness to

:16:31. > :16:35.listen to colleagues, but an Ofsted report earlier this year on standard

:16:36. > :16:38.of provision by the local authority in Portsmouth is damning with

:16:39. > :16:42.generations of children being let down. The Conservative led

:16:43. > :16:46.administration and City Council has made important changes and a new

:16:47. > :16:50.director is making a difference but that she agree that she must have

:16:51. > :16:57.the powers to intervene where local authorities are failing? Can I thank

:16:58. > :17:03.my Honourable Friend. She is right, we cannot stand back where local

:17:04. > :17:07.authorities are not providing sufficiently strong improvement. She

:17:08. > :17:10.is right to talk about generations who have been failed. It would be

:17:11. > :17:17.irresponsible for us as the Government for that to continue on

:17:18. > :17:21.our watch. Can I say to the Secretary of State that members on

:17:22. > :17:25.this site are absolutely committed to high standards, and she doesn't

:17:26. > :17:31.aid this debate by turning it into an unnecessarily partisan attack on

:17:32. > :17:36.this side of the House. The title of her white paper is educational

:17:37. > :17:42.excellence everywhere. Does she really believe that a one size fits

:17:43. > :17:46.all is best for education everywhere? Isn't it time to follow

:17:47. > :17:50.the example of other parts of the Government and look at devolution so

:17:51. > :17:59.more of these decisions are made at a city, regional, county level, and

:18:00. > :18:05.fewer in her department? . Can I say that the second half of the question

:18:06. > :18:11.was more constructive to the -- than the first. We have had a one size

:18:12. > :18:14.fits all system called local education authorities. We now have a

:18:15. > :18:22.system where schools and decide on their future, all working with have

:18:23. > :18:25.diocese. I am delighted he is on our side for raising standards and I

:18:26. > :18:33.hope you can speak to members on his side. I thank the Secretary of State

:18:34. > :18:37.on her statement, and listening to colleagues on the issue of

:18:38. > :18:42.academies. The purpose of the White Paper is to listen and debate. But I

:18:43. > :18:48.wonder if she shares my disquiet in the approach language a proto- --

:18:49. > :18:53.adopted by some teaching unions which rails against all academies

:18:54. > :19:02.despite the fact that in the evidence that in the main they work?

:19:03. > :19:07.I remember visiting the excellent Academy in his constituency which

:19:08. > :19:11.was full of innovation, bigger and creativity and underside of the

:19:12. > :19:15.pupils. Yes I am concerned that some people so want to talk about

:19:16. > :19:19.structures that they have missed the rest of the White Paper and abetting

:19:20. > :19:26.it says about teaching, leadership, standards, curriculum and funding.

:19:27. > :19:28.Just two weeks ago at Prime Minister's Questions, the Prime

:19:29. > :19:33.Minister confidently declared that forced academisation would be in the

:19:34. > :19:39.Queen's speech, yet today we have this U-turn. Why has it taken the

:19:40. > :19:43.Government so long to listen to education professionals, teachers,

:19:44. > :19:47.parents, the Labour Party and even their own backbenchers? What the

:19:48. > :19:50.Prime Minister talked about was academies for all and education for

:19:51. > :20:00.all which is what we are going to see. The Shadow Secretary of State

:20:01. > :20:05.said there is no evidence that academies nation in and of itself

:20:06. > :20:07.improves performance, but does the Secretary of State think the

:20:08. > :20:12.increased autonomy and accountability that is inherent in

:20:13. > :20:16.the structure of academies does improve performance as set out not

:20:17. > :20:24.only in the report she mentioned but also the McKinsey report of 2010? I

:20:25. > :20:27.entirely agree with her. We are very clear that just the name of Academy

:20:28. > :20:32.doesn't improve standards but academies are the vehicle by which

:20:33. > :20:36.those working in them have the ability to innovate with the

:20:37. > :20:39.curriculum, set flexibility for pay and conditions, to collaborate more

:20:40. > :20:43.freely with other schools, which is what we are seeing academies doing,

:20:44. > :20:54.which is why we are seeing standards rising stock blue. What the figures

:20:55. > :20:58.actually show is that we are going down the international league tables

:20:59. > :21:03.standards rise amongst our committed as more quickly than here in the UK

:21:04. > :21:10.# amongst our competitors. It is a tragedy that she spends so much time

:21:11. > :21:14.on this partisan bickering and a dogmatic accession with structures.

:21:15. > :21:19.The best and quickest way to improve standards in our schools is to focus

:21:20. > :21:23.on leadership, which is what she should be addressing all her

:21:24. > :21:26.attention to, so will she take the ?1 billion she was going to spend on

:21:27. > :21:37.forcing every school to become an Academy and use it to recruiting new

:21:38. > :21:41.generation of head teachers? Can I suggest that he reread chapter three

:21:42. > :21:45.of the White Paper in titled great leaders running our schools at the

:21:46. > :21:48.heart of our system. We have already set aside money for training head

:21:49. > :21:54.and supporting their great leadership. Our rankings in the

:21:55. > :22:00.international league tables, you might like to think that between

:22:01. > :22:07.2000-2009 England's 15-year-olds fell from 7-25th in Reading, fell in

:22:08. > :22:10.maths and science. If he thinks underperformance when his party was

:22:11. > :22:20.in power was good enough he has another think coming. There is

:22:21. > :22:25.nothing ignoble about a Secretary of State coming to the House to make

:22:26. > :22:29.changes based on legitimate concerns raised by colleagues including my

:22:30. > :22:32.local education authority, Conservative controlled Peterborough

:22:33. > :22:37.City Council. In the new dispensation will she bearing mind

:22:38. > :22:42.two issues, one is the statutory roles of the LE a in terms of school

:22:43. > :22:46.place planning and special education needs, and will issue also bear in

:22:47. > :22:51.mind that there are remaining capacity issues for Academy chains

:22:52. > :22:57.to deal with the serious problems of failing schools, some of which are

:22:58. > :23:01.in my own constituency? Can I thank my Honourable Friend for his point

:23:02. > :23:06.and may I congratulate him and his councillors on taking control of

:23:07. > :23:10.Peterborough Council, which was a fantastic result. He raises two

:23:11. > :23:13.important points, and of course we will continue to work with members

:23:14. > :23:16.and local authorities on issues around place planning but also

:23:17. > :23:21.building capacity. In the White Paper we talk about the money we

:23:22. > :23:25.have set aside and the ability to grow strongly much -- strong multi

:23:26. > :23:31.Academy trust sponsors including existing outstanding schools which

:23:32. > :23:36.can often be the most effective sponsors. If the Secretary of State

:23:37. > :23:41.is serious about the concept of excellence everywhere, she needs to

:23:42. > :23:47.deal with the real challenge that is caused by the pressure put on

:23:48. > :23:50.schools to take those students most likely to help with league tables at

:23:51. > :23:54.the expense of those students perceived to be less likely to help

:23:55. > :24:03.with league tables. In doing that she should listen to the principal

:24:04. > :24:07.of the Passmore Academy, which have made this point, that if something

:24:08. > :24:12.isn't done about this pressure, then we will see the introduction of very

:24:13. > :24:16.much a two tier education system to the detriment of many thousands of

:24:17. > :24:17.children who will never recover throughout their lives from the

:24:18. > :24:26.damage being done to them. I have met Vic Gothard and visited

:24:27. > :24:33.his school and seen how committed and dedicated and head teacher he

:24:34. > :24:36.is. The first and to his question is that the code is extremely clear

:24:37. > :24:40.that schools cannot screen out or not take on certain pupils. If there

:24:41. > :24:46.is evidence of that, it needs to be reported. Second point, as I'm sure

:24:47. > :24:49.you know as the former member of the general Select Committee is progress

:24:50. > :24:54.towards the selector measure. Where we move away from borderline

:24:55. > :24:57.children to the progress that all children make to the cause of their

:24:58. > :25:05.schooling and schools like that will be particularly good and make sure

:25:06. > :25:10.that happens as well. As a former teacher, I welcome my right

:25:11. > :25:18.fran-macro's for compulsory academisation. The she realises

:25:19. > :25:21.vital engage with the... As a former teacher, it can I encourage you to

:25:22. > :25:27.be redheaded by the low-level disruption she faces in front of

:25:28. > :25:33.her. Can I thank him very much indeed and he I'm sure is an expert

:25:34. > :25:37.are dealing with low-level disruption. Can I say in all

:25:38. > :25:40.seriousness that engaging teachers is something I take very seriously

:25:41. > :25:44.and enjoy doing. One of the best things I do is to get out of

:25:45. > :25:48.Westminster and visit schools and take part in the chicha direct

:25:49. > :25:55.sessions I arrange. -- teacher directs. This editor Israel state

:25:56. > :25:59.taught by many, Seychelles she had in recent weeks that cannot convince

:26:00. > :26:03.to that ranking powers of forced academisation are not necessarily

:26:04. > :26:07.any more. In order to avoid a period of uncertainty for school and

:26:08. > :26:12.communities wouldn't it be met at those conversations before

:26:13. > :26:15.announcing such a flawed policy? I have lots of conversations all of

:26:16. > :26:18.the time. But I was been asked before the publication of the white

:26:19. > :26:20.paper was for a statement about where we were going about whether we

:26:21. > :26:27.want to schools to become academies and that is what the white paper

:26:28. > :26:31.offers. I too would like to thank the Minister for her statement

:26:32. > :26:34.today. But also for listening to not just backbenchers and members across

:26:35. > :26:37.the chamber, but to teachers as well and I do sense they have concerns

:26:38. > :26:42.and there is a willingness to work with us as well. Would she assure me

:26:43. > :26:46.she will continue in all of this to keep her focus on raising standards

:26:47. > :26:53.and aspirations which are really at the heart of this? Well, it can I

:26:54. > :26:56.thank my honourable friend and she is right to say hi aspirations on

:26:57. > :26:59.raising standards must be at the heart of our education policy,

:27:00. > :27:02.because education as to be about the greatest investor that we can make

:27:03. > :27:05.in the future of our country and about making sure our young people

:27:06. > :27:10.fulfil their potential and are set up for the world of work and we will

:27:11. > :27:18.keep that the focus of all of our reforms. Although welcomed, many

:27:19. > :27:21.parents and teachers in Michael Stich were to feel the Secretary of

:27:22. > :27:24.State's announcement was merely a tactical retreat with the Government

:27:25. > :27:28.still committed to the same end as by other means. With those concerns

:27:29. > :27:32.in mind, with the minister be able to provide me with more details

:27:33. > :27:35.about what point the local authority will be judged on a viable or how

:27:36. > :27:42.the minimum performance threshold will be defined.? If he was

:27:43. > :27:45.listening to my statement, I said we'd be consulting on diners

:27:46. > :27:49.measures would be subject to an affirmative resolution in this

:27:50. > :27:52.House. At all stages since the publication of the white paper our

:27:53. > :28:00.goal has been about raising standards for children and that has

:28:01. > :28:03.not changed. I'd like to thank my right honourable friend for engaging

:28:04. > :28:07.so constructively in this issue and the statement will be most welcome

:28:08. > :28:10.in Somerset today. I've visited number of good and outstanding local

:28:11. > :28:13.authority controlled schools in my constituency who see the attraction

:28:14. > :28:18.of academisation but nervous about the transition. When this occurs set

:28:19. > :28:22.out our dirty bomber were well above the school and the local authority

:28:23. > :28:28.to facilitate the transition at a time of the school's choosing? Can I

:28:29. > :28:30.thank right honourable friend and I absolutely understand the worry

:28:31. > :28:36.about the unknown what they are coming Academy needs and how much

:28:37. > :28:38.time it will take. Why we set out to have a specific fund to support

:28:39. > :28:42.small schools make sure that each school when they want to convert

:28:43. > :28:46.gets its own advisable star but I was strongly urged -- I would

:28:47. > :28:48.strongly urge him to speak to his regional schools commissioner

:28:49. > :28:50.because he has a position in the local community in terms of working

:28:51. > :28:54.with schools that want to convert and if there are problems can make

:28:55. > :29:02.it directly with me with me with the school's Minister. The Secretary of

:29:03. > :29:07.State is sending out mixed messages. She just declared if I had correctly

:29:08. > :29:12.that we will still see academies for all. So will she I accept that this

:29:13. > :29:15.whole episode has caused trilanders stress and anxiety to headteachers

:29:16. > :29:23.and the staff up and down the country who are now considering

:29:24. > :29:28.converting to academies that is not to raise their standards but simply

:29:29. > :29:31.to avoid being pushed. Will she give reassurance to those headteachers

:29:32. > :29:35.that that is not what they should be focused on accommodation not be

:29:36. > :29:40.focused on their structures, but they can focus on the standards.

:29:41. > :29:44.Well, I couldn't have been more clear in my answers and in the

:29:45. > :29:48.original statement that we want all schools to be focused on the raising

:29:49. > :29:51.of standards. But I'm also clear about the benefits of schools

:29:52. > :29:55.becoming academies, about trusting the front line to run at their

:29:56. > :29:58.schools, to be accountable for the results that they achieved. That's

:29:59. > :30:02.why we are also clear that we want all schools to be, academies, but at

:30:03. > :30:07.the time of their choosing and way of choosing. Unless of course they

:30:08. > :30:10.are underperforming and the local authority is no longer viable,

:30:11. > :30:17.because of the numbers of schools that have converted. I've recently

:30:18. > :30:20.met with school leaders and leaders from Hampshire County Council and

:30:21. > :30:24.they were keen to hear the direction of travel permit a Qatari state and

:30:25. > :30:30.I do welcome the listening exercise that colleagues and I have had. We'd

:30:31. > :30:33.be going to the process of truly understanding our commitment and

:30:34. > :30:37.promised in our manifesto of the importance of lifting the standards

:30:38. > :30:41.for our schools and by this statement today, it shows the focus

:30:42. > :30:46.on our children and helping them all to achieve. Can I ask the Secretary

:30:47. > :30:50.of State to fill in the gaps in terms of the voices parents and

:30:51. > :30:55.links to the community during this white paper listening exercise?

:30:56. > :30:59.Well, can I thank my honourable friend and pay tribute to the work

:31:00. > :31:02.she has done locally in terms of bringing schools together, talking

:31:03. > :31:07.to parents and others in her constituency and I think it is

:31:08. > :31:09.incumbent on us all to continue to do that as constituency members of

:31:10. > :31:14.parliament, but also encourage people to go and visit other schools

:31:15. > :31:18.that have converted, because that is the best way of understanding the

:31:19. > :31:20.process, how it works and the best issue to take and it applies to

:31:21. > :31:29.parents, governors, teachers and headteachers. Thank you, Mr Speaker.

:31:30. > :31:33.It feels very confused, we have a Government that seems habits give

:31:34. > :31:36.greater Manchester council's for health devolution, ?8 billion a

:31:37. > :31:39.year, but does not have the same address to give up control of their

:31:40. > :31:45.schools. Can we explain the difference? Becoming an academies

:31:46. > :31:51.all about the ultimate devolution, devolution to the front line of

:31:52. > :31:56.their heads, and governors. Can I warmly welcome at my right

:31:57. > :32:00.honourable friend's flexibility on this matter. Secondary schools in

:32:01. > :32:05.Gloucestershire were one of the first to warmly embrace academies.

:32:06. > :32:08.But does leave small rural schools. There seems to be a communication

:32:09. > :32:11.gap with them. How can her department and all of us communicate

:32:12. > :32:14.with the parents, governors and teachers in the small secondary

:32:15. > :32:20.schools on the benefits of academies? In my statement I set out

:32:21. > :32:23.some of those specific policies and we will bring close together into a

:32:24. > :32:28.package that honourable members are able to circulate in terms of

:32:29. > :32:32.information to relevant schools. I'd also encourage him to do as others

:32:33. > :32:35.have, which is a co-ordinated meetings of heads or chairs of

:32:36. > :32:38.governors but also involving the regional schools commissioners who

:32:39. > :32:42.will hold events to talk about the coming and Academy and the

:32:43. > :32:49.sponsorship opportunities available if that is what the school -- small

:32:50. > :32:52.school wants. I'm sure that the many good and outstanding schools in my

:32:53. > :32:55.constituency that are not academies will welcome at this statement

:32:56. > :32:59.today. However, I'm concerned that this figure just a 's or dogmatic

:33:00. > :33:03.ambitions remain the same, that she so intends to force every school

:33:04. > :33:06.into academisation -- academisation, by hook or crook. She was quoted a

:33:07. > :33:11.few weeks ago are saying we are going to finish this job, but she's

:33:12. > :33:13.still stand by that will she finally recognise the right of good and

:33:14. > :33:16.outstanding local schools to determine their own destiny and if

:33:17. > :33:24.they decide not to become an academy, that rights will be

:33:25. > :33:26.respected? They still don't necessarily do so what I been

:33:27. > :33:30.saying, because I thought about finishing the job of lifting

:33:31. > :33:41.standards for young people in this country. Can I commend my right

:33:42. > :33:45.honourable friend for her measured and thoughtful statement today which

:33:46. > :33:48.I believe will address the legitimate concerns of many

:33:49. > :33:52.excellent but small rural schools in my constituency. And she agree that

:33:53. > :33:55.in education, indeed across all Government, we must never let the

:33:56. > :34:03.outstanding become the enemy of the good? My -- he and I both know we

:34:04. > :34:07.are fortunate to have many great schools. We also know that not all

:34:08. > :34:12.young people have that opportunity to attend a good or outstanding

:34:13. > :34:15.school. Whether it is in the Midlands or elsewhere. That is why

:34:16. > :34:21.we can not let up on the need to pursue reforms that left educational

:34:22. > :34:24.standards. In one of the most affluent constituencies in this

:34:25. > :34:31.country, I could only find six schools ranked as outstanding. This

:34:32. > :34:35.has been as a result of successive cosy relationships under different

:34:36. > :34:43.administrations with the LEA. What will she do it ensure that situation

:34:44. > :34:48.is improved? He raises a really important issue, that a number of

:34:49. > :34:52.people will tell me that they are good, good local authorities, good

:34:53. > :34:56.schools, but when you compare it with other local authorities,

:34:57. > :34:59.whether similar ones all schools in the most disadvantaged areas doing

:35:00. > :35:05.fantastic things for their pupils, and that is why we introduced the

:35:06. > :35:08.education act 2060 which tackles coasting schools. Those schools are

:35:09. > :35:17.OK, but they could be a lot better and that is what we intend to do,

:35:18. > :35:22.help them to achieve. I do also welcome the Secretary of State's

:35:23. > :35:27.strength in a statement today. And for Michael Stich and see in a

:35:28. > :35:32.Medway as a whole, secondary schools and a large proportion of primaries

:35:33. > :35:35.are already academies, some of which have become Compal to become

:35:36. > :35:40.academies and it is true that it is home-grown academies that have

:35:41. > :35:45.played a massive role in the driving of standards up within our authority

:35:46. > :35:53.which has, historically, been an underperforming authority. In my

:35:54. > :35:57.time, I saw adults being put before that at the outcomes of young people

:35:58. > :36:01.in the schools in which they were charged with looking after. I would

:36:02. > :36:04.like to offer the Secretary of State can she confirmed that she is

:36:05. > :36:11.committed to tackling underperformance wherever it is? I

:36:12. > :36:15.think by the sheer strength and passion of her question, she shows

:36:16. > :36:18.just how committed she is to this agenda. I remember discussing it

:36:19. > :36:23.with her on the campaign trail when she was seeking election to this

:36:24. > :36:26.House. I can assure her absolutely that there will be no letup reverse

:36:27. > :36:35.gear in terms of lifting standards for young people in the UK. Can I

:36:36. > :36:37.thank the Secretary of State for her unswerving determination to drive up

:36:38. > :36:40.standards in our schools and their willingness to listen to suggestions

:36:41. > :36:45.for how the white paper mine to be strengthened. The she agree that

:36:46. > :36:48.Robin Field at uni school -- junior school provides a powerful example

:36:49. > :36:53.of the great benefits for pupils and teachers that can come from a

:36:54. > :36:55.multi-Academy trust, but the good and outstanding schools in

:36:56. > :37:03.Cheltenham should be just to judge for themselves if that structure

:37:04. > :37:07.suits them? Like him, I enjoyed my visit to that school and those to

:37:08. > :37:14.fantastic co-headteachers, if I could clone of them are, they were

:37:15. > :37:17.utterly inspirational. He is right as anyone schools to be able to

:37:18. > :37:21.choose the right format for them, but we have to be realistic. If they

:37:22. > :37:27.are in an underperforming local authority and if it is not viable,

:37:28. > :37:35.that will help them get even better. -- not help them. That the Secretary

:37:36. > :37:38.of State for taking the time to listen and full strength in this

:37:39. > :37:47.already fantastic white paper and for providing a source of debate. To

:37:48. > :37:50.that end, could I ask the Secretary of State to consider the obstacles

:37:51. > :37:53.on the local clusters forming a multi-Academy trusts by the many

:37:54. > :38:00.school that I have in my constituency? He raises a really

:38:01. > :38:04.important question about small schools, usually primary schools,

:38:05. > :38:08.deciding whether or not to join the Academy trust if one is being set up

:38:09. > :38:13.thinking about the other options. On the 18th of April we publish the to

:38:14. > :38:16.new memorandums and understanding with the Church of England and the

:38:17. > :38:19.Catholic church which do provide more flexibility and I hope that

:38:20. > :38:26.will be of use to him in his discussions. I would like to Valley

:38:27. > :38:32.secretary of States for listening so constructively to members on the

:38:33. > :38:36.side of the House on this issue. As I told her face to face, I have good

:38:37. > :38:40.schools, good local authority schools angered academies and even a

:38:41. > :38:46.good co-operative trusted my home village. Would she continue to put

:38:47. > :38:47.parents and governing bodies at the forefront of determining the future

:38:48. > :38:59.of our wonderful local schools? We had a very good conversation, he

:39:00. > :39:03.is right, he is passionate as an MP championing high educational

:39:04. > :39:08.standards in his constituency. He is right to say the voices of parents,

:39:09. > :39:12.governors, teachers, head teachers and pupils themselves need to be

:39:13. > :39:16.listened to, which is why it is incumbent that we ensure the options

:39:17. > :39:24.are out there, then schools can make the right decisions at a and

:39:25. > :39:30.outstanding. -- if they are good and outstanding. The majority of schools

:39:31. > :39:34.in Torbay have converted to academies and some are making great

:39:35. > :39:38.progress. That brings up the issue of the viability of the Torbay local

:39:39. > :39:42.education authority. I was interested to hear her comments.

:39:43. > :39:46.Would she confirm whether the threshold would be based on pupil

:39:47. > :39:51.numbers or percentage of schools or will this be subject to later

:39:52. > :39:56.consultation? That is a good question and something we want to

:39:57. > :40:01.continue discussing in the course of taking measures through this House

:40:02. > :40:06.but also with local authorities. The important thing is the ability for

:40:07. > :40:10.local education authorities to have resources and experience and

:40:11. > :40:13.personnel to offer good school improvement. In my experience most

:40:14. > :40:18.local authorities will be able to judge when they are struggling with

:40:19. > :40:25.that. We know at least one has asked us to issue Academy orders for their

:40:26. > :40:29.remaining schools. Can I welcome the statement and her willingness to

:40:30. > :40:34.engage on what is, let's run number, White Paper of discussion. I was a

:40:35. > :40:37.meeting at Hampton county council with the leader of the schools

:40:38. > :40:41.league and the first half of the meeting didn't go as well as the

:40:42. > :40:46.second after they heard her announcement. I pass on their

:40:47. > :40:52.thanks. My hope is this compromise will allow us to get on in

:40:53. > :40:58.successful areas, 94% of schools in my area are good or outstanding, and

:40:59. > :41:01.allowed to focus on areas with the children don't enjoy the chances

:41:02. > :41:08.they have in my constituency, do I have that right? The timing of the

:41:09. > :41:12.announcement on Friday wasn't timed for his meeting with Hampshire but

:41:13. > :41:16.he made it clear when he was meeting members of the local authority, and

:41:17. > :41:19.he is right to say that in the White Paper and discussions it has become

:41:20. > :41:23.very clear that we know there are some parts of the country where

:41:24. > :41:26.children get a great education, but that is not everywhere, and I

:41:27. > :41:31.couldn't say more strongly how I feel that that educational

:41:32. > :41:42.excellence should be shared by all children in this country. Can I say

:41:43. > :41:44.how much I welcome the statement. I had concerns about compulsory

:41:45. > :41:49.Academy isolation but she has taken the time to listen to colleagues --

:41:50. > :41:54.compulsory academisation. On the point about the ?10 million fund

:41:55. > :41:58.which I welcome for small rural schools needing support in

:41:59. > :42:01.conversion, can she confirm when it will be available and the case of

:42:02. > :42:07.schools looking to form a group whether it will go to the lead

:42:08. > :42:10.school or all of them? We still need to work out the details but the fund

:42:11. > :42:15.will be available sooner rather than later because we know they're

:42:16. > :42:21.already small schools thinking about their future, and it will be for

:42:22. > :42:24.things like legal costs. I think it is important that it supports all

:42:25. > :42:31.schools because all of them would need that support, not just the lead

:42:32. > :42:35.school. I don't share the rose tinted view of some about local

:42:36. > :42:44.education authorities. Mine in Nottinghamshire has failed

:42:45. > :42:50.consistently. At times political parties and LEAs in my constituency

:42:51. > :42:53.have been complacent and ineffective. The most important

:42:54. > :42:57.thing to me is the willingness to intervene when schools are failing,

:42:58. > :43:03.and that has been neglected for too long. Would she in her advice and

:43:04. > :43:07.guidance to her regional schools commissioners redoubled their

:43:08. > :43:10.commitment to intervene so no child's education is written off

:43:11. > :43:18.like generations in my town of Newark? Can I pay tribute to his

:43:19. > :43:22.commitment as a local MP to driving up educational standards in his

:43:23. > :43:26.constituency. He is right to say we know there are local authorities, he

:43:27. > :43:30.has mentioned his own, across the country where there have never

:43:31. > :43:34.issued a warning notice all appointed an interim executive board

:43:35. > :43:38.to run the school. The commissioners know because they are an excellent

:43:39. > :43:45.team that they need to intervene swiftly when there is educational

:43:46. > :43:47.failure. With was seen that in the sending out of financial and

:43:48. > :43:52.educational warning notice this is, and that will continue -- we have

:43:53. > :43:58.seen that in the sending out of notices. As the governor of an

:43:59. > :44:02.excellent Academy which has done so much to maintain the thoughts of

:44:03. > :44:06.arts education in Tonbridge I am proud of the work this Government

:44:07. > :44:11.has done in supporting academies. Can I welcome the Secretary of

:44:12. > :44:15.State's comments and wonder if she timed this in order for me to thank

:44:16. > :44:23.the parish council for their intervention last week? Well, I am

:44:24. > :44:31.delighted to have assisted my Honourable Friend and the parish

:44:32. > :44:35.council if that is the case. Can I congratulate him on the governorship

:44:36. > :44:41.of the school and also the arts, I went to a fantastic school in

:44:42. > :44:45.Northampton, where Shakespeare was embedded in the curriculum from

:44:46. > :44:49.reception to year six, and it shows what an inspirational head with the

:44:50. > :44:56.support of Academy trust can do to transform education in their

:44:57. > :45:00.schools. Could I thank my Right Honourable Friend for listening on

:45:01. > :45:07.both academies and fair funding. Would she meet me and our Right

:45:08. > :45:10.Honourable Friend for South Staffordshire to discuss

:45:11. > :45:15.particularly the situation in Staffordshire where schools are

:45:16. > :45:17.working hard but suffering tremendously when compared to

:45:18. > :45:24.neighbouring authorities on the question of funding? Yes, of course,

:45:25. > :45:28.either I or the schools minister would be delighted to meet him. We

:45:29. > :45:33.have made a clear commitment which I have to say was not taken up under

:45:34. > :45:37.13 years of the last Labour Government, to look at fair funding

:45:38. > :45:40.and transform how that works across the country. It must be right that

:45:41. > :45:44.the same pupils with the same characteristics must attract the

:45:45. > :45:54.same funding and we are determined to see that. Order. Point of order,

:45:55. > :45:57.Mr Carlton. On the 28th of April, the Leader of the House of Lords in

:45:58. > :46:04.answer to the Member for Brigham Gall attempted to smear the

:46:05. > :46:09.prospective Labour Party police and crime commission a candidate for

:46:10. > :46:17.Humberside, Keith Hunter. He did so in reply to question from the Member

:46:18. > :46:23.where he about column 15 65 in Hansard. We were talking about the

:46:24. > :46:26.dodgy behaviour of code police and crime commission candidates. May I

:46:27. > :46:30.say to the leader of the House that a number of folks standing for

:46:31. > :46:35.election next week are ex-coppers trading on their record as police

:46:36. > :46:38.officers. Does he agree that the Government should bring forward

:46:39. > :46:43.proposals to end former police officers standing to be cc make

:46:44. > :46:48.their police service records available for public scrutiny --

:46:49. > :46:54.standing for police and crime commission. The leader applied, he

:46:55. > :46:57.makes an important point, I am of allegations about the candidate in

:46:58. > :47:02.Humberside. If the story is alleged about the candidate are true, he is

:47:03. > :47:06.unfit for public office, and it is a matter of public interest that the

:47:07. > :47:14.truth should be known before election day. I wrote to the leader

:47:15. > :47:21.of the House requiring him to either explain the deliberately damaging

:47:22. > :47:25.remarks and the precise basis for them or to formally withdraw them

:47:26. > :47:32.and apologise for the disgusting attempted smear. Would you please

:47:33. > :47:38.advise me on what I can do, given that the leader of the House is

:47:39. > :47:43.ignoring formal correspondence from elected members including formal

:47:44. > :47:48.correspondence from Her Majesty's opposition and deliberately misusing

:47:49. > :47:55.this place for divisive and nasty Tory party political campaigning? I

:47:56. > :47:58.am grateful for the point of order and courtesy in giving me advance

:47:59. > :48:07.notice of the thrust of it. The short answer is that what he has

:48:08. > :48:12.said in this place -- what is said in this place by any Member is the

:48:13. > :48:17.responsibility of that Member, not the chair. Clearly we should all

:48:18. > :48:20.think carefully before making accusations against individuals. The

:48:21. > :48:26.Honourable Gentleman has made his point and doubtless it will be

:48:27. > :48:30.relayed, this exchange will be related, to the leader and the

:48:31. > :48:35.Honourable Gentleman can seek to secure a written reply from the

:48:36. > :48:40.Leader of the House if he so wishes, but I cannot involve myself further.

:48:41. > :48:46.I will leave the Honourable Gentleman to his own devices. Point

:48:47. > :48:51.of order, Mr Michael fabricant. We all know there is a tradition in the

:48:52. > :48:58.House of Commons of service either to 1's constituents or others in

:48:59. > :49:01.charities, and within this House we serve on House committees. During

:49:02. > :49:06.the war some members of Parliament did fire watching service over

:49:07. > :49:15.Westminster Hall. The reason for this point of order is, we learn to

:49:16. > :49:21.day of the real danger of war if the United Kingdom were to leave the

:49:22. > :49:25.European Union. I just wondered whether you or your staff, officers

:49:26. > :49:31.at the House, have made any provision for Fire Service, I don't

:49:32. > :49:39.know, missiles of defence, should war imminently break out if we were

:49:40. > :49:44.to leave the European Union. I have confessed -- I confess I have made

:49:45. > :49:48.no such preparations. I wouldn't wish to be accused of tardiness or

:49:49. > :49:54.irresponsibility by the Honourable Gentleman or any other Member, but I

:49:55. > :50:00.have been preoccupied with other duties in the House today, including

:50:01. > :50:03.in the chair, including listening to the mellifluous tones of the

:50:04. > :50:07.Honourable Gentleman, and I have embarked thus far on no such

:50:08. > :50:11.preparations, but I have a hunch that the Honourable Gentleman was

:50:12. > :50:18.more interested in what he had to say to me than anything I might say

:50:19. > :50:22.to him. LAUGHTER. If there are no further points of order perhaps we

:50:23. > :50:32.can move on to backbench business and specifically the backbench

:50:33. > :50:36.motion, the BIS Sheffield proposal and governments outside London to

:50:37. > :50:44.move the motion, I call Mr Paul Blomfield. Thank you very much

:50:45. > :50:51.indeed. I beg to move the motion as on the order paper related to the

:50:52. > :50:54.BIS Sheffield proposal and Government departments outside

:50:55. > :50:58.London. Can I thank the Backbench Business Committee for granting of

:50:59. > :51:01.the time for this debate and thank Honourable members and Right

:51:02. > :51:08.Honourable members from both sides of the House for their support of

:51:09. > :51:15.this application. I think the breadth of that support encapsulates

:51:16. > :51:20.the concern that exists over the two issues central to this debate. The

:51:21. > :51:23.first is to underline the value of locating civil servants and

:51:24. > :51:27.particularly those involved in policy making right around the

:51:28. > :51:32.country, in the regions and nations that make up the UK. But I -- I

:51:33. > :51:38.think that is something on which we would agree, and I think it is

:51:39. > :51:42.reflected in the approach of successive governments including

:51:43. > :51:47.this one in many of the things it is seeking to do. The second and

:51:48. > :51:54.specific issue is the seemingly perverse decision of the business,

:51:55. > :51:58.innovation and skills department, to centralise policy work in Whitehall,

:51:59. > :52:06.closing their Sheffield office, in a decision that runs counter to the

:52:07. > :52:11.general thrust of Government policy. Madam Deputy Speaker, on the 28th of

:52:12. > :52:14.January this Permanent Secretary announced plans to close the thing

:52:15. > :52:19.Paul's Place office in Sheffield which is part of the national policy

:52:20. > :52:25.function and to relocate those jobs in London in order to centralise all

:52:26. > :52:36.departmental policy functions in Whitehall. In the words to justify

:52:37. > :52:42.this decision he explained the department needs to modernise the

:52:43. > :52:48.way it works, to reduce operating costs and deliver a simpler, smaller

:52:49. > :52:52.department that is more flexible and responsive to stakeholders and

:52:53. > :52:59.businesses. Both are fine goals, legitimate goals,, but a decision to

:53:00. > :53:06.move policy function from Sheffield to London doesn't take any of those

:53:07. > :53:10.boxes. So as members, we asked the department to see the figures so

:53:11. > :53:18.that we could try to understand how they answered the question of how

:53:19. > :53:25.could move from Sheffield to the most expensive city the country

:53:26. > :53:30.possibly reduce operating costs. I am grateful to my Honourable Friend

:53:31. > :53:34.for giving way. He is making the central point of our argument. Can I

:53:35. > :53:38.make the point that it is not just jobs in Sheffield but jobs in

:53:39. > :53:40.Darlington but are being moved to London as well, and this makes no

:53:41. > :53:52.sense. I thank her for her intervention and

:53:53. > :53:57.I hear her sentiment that there are so many benefits from locating jobs

:53:58. > :54:05.out of London, cost benefits, the enrichment of decision-making by

:54:06. > :54:08.having people like involved in administering government located

:54:09. > :54:14.around the country, so she makes an important point. When we asked the

:54:15. > :54:20.permanent Secretary for the cost benefit analysis, we got no answer.

:54:21. > :54:25.Madam Deputy Speaker, the cost benefit analysis of moving the

:54:26. > :54:31.Department will office is not commercially sensitive. It's not, as

:54:32. > :54:39.far as I can see, a matter of national security, so why, from day

:54:40. > :54:43.one, has the department refused to provide the evidential basis for

:54:44. > :54:49.this proposal? Members of the House have asked, in a Westminster debate,

:54:50. > :54:57.in oral questions, in an urgent question, over three separate

:54:58. > :55:01.evidence sessions of two select committees, this committee and

:55:02. > :55:06.public accounts, and in written correspondence, and still we have

:55:07. > :55:10.yet to see that information. We can only assume the reason is that the

:55:11. > :55:17.decision does not stand up to scrutiny. What information we have

:55:18. > :55:24.managed to wheedle out through written questions does seem to

:55:25. > :55:32.confirm that the answer to parliamentary question 33917 tells

:55:33. > :55:40.us that each ear it costs ?3190 to have an employee in Sheffield,

:55:41. > :55:46.compared with ?9,750 in London, and the Department offers a London

:55:47. > :55:54.salary waiting, so we're already up to over ?10,000 more for an employee

:55:55. > :55:58.in London than in Sheffield, before we consider recruitment issues in

:55:59. > :56:05.London, where a composite of jobs market drivers salaries of further,

:56:06. > :56:09.but when the permanent Secretary was questioned, he told the Public

:56:10. > :56:14.Accounts Committee, we have not sought to put a price on those and

:56:15. > :56:19.additional costs. That is extraordinary and it is not good

:56:20. > :56:24.enough. I'm grateful to my honourable friend forgiving way and

:56:25. > :56:28.he is making an excellent financial case for why this should not happen,

:56:29. > :56:34.but that BIS office in my constituency is not a headquarters

:56:35. > :56:40.but is closed to the constituency of the minister for the Northern

:56:41. > :56:45.powerhouse. What sort of message is being sent about the torment's

:56:46. > :56:49.commitment to win Northern powerhouse went it closes offices

:56:50. > :56:57.even in the constituency of the Northern powerhouse Minister and

:56:58. > :57:01.next-door? He makes an important point and one that he won't be

:57:02. > :57:06.surprised to know I might come onto a little later. The Government says

:57:07. > :57:12.it wants to save money, and understandably so, but we've done

:57:13. > :57:19.the maths from the limited information we have got. This

:57:20. > :57:25.decision will cost the Department and additional ?2.5 million a year,

:57:26. > :57:28.every year, in its operational costs, and I want to press the

:57:29. > :57:34.minister further on the figures but when we did in committee and tried

:57:35. > :57:39.to get a proper cost benefit analysis, the permanent Secretary

:57:40. > :57:45.said, I don't think I can point to one specific document that covers

:57:46. > :57:49.the Sheffield issue. When the minister of State for universities

:57:50. > :57:57.and science through the short straw of defending the seemingly

:57:58. > :58:01.indefensible at the Westminster Hall debate, he was clearly briefed by

:58:02. > :58:05.civil servants to respond to the repeated requests we made 48 cost

:58:06. > :58:10.benefit analysis by saying, I'm unable to provide aid this aggregate

:58:11. > :58:15.of the breakdown of that figure because we are talking about a

:58:16. > :58:23.system change. Not so, because I have it here, in an internal BIS

:58:24. > :58:27.Management document, on a page entitled potential savings from

:58:28. > :58:33.Sheffield office closure. I think there were serious issues here about

:58:34. > :58:40.the hand ministers have been dealt by senior civil servants in their

:58:41. > :58:45.department. The minister in her seat now, when answering the urgent

:58:46. > :58:51.question laid down by my honourable friend the member for Sheffield

:58:52. > :58:55.Keeley, just after the announcement, said, we are confident many workers

:58:56. > :59:05.will choose to take the new jobs in London. Not, according to the leaked

:59:06. > :59:08.internal document. Because it says, 90% of potential savings are

:59:09. > :59:13.dependent on how many jobs are retained and moved to London, which

:59:14. > :59:19.is to say the more people who reject this non-offer of upping sticks and

:59:20. > :59:24.trying to find out house in London, moving schools for their children,

:59:25. > :59:29.the fewer people who take that move, the more money will be saved, and to

:59:30. > :59:35.make sure of that, no relocation package was offered to the staff.

:59:36. > :59:39.This takes me back to the obfuscation we have encountered

:59:40. > :59:46.through this few months of debating this. In answer to my recent

:59:47. > :59:52.attempts at getting it is via written parliamentary questions, I

:59:53. > :59:57.was referred to a letter from them chair of the Business Committee,

:59:58. > :00:02.which sets out quite exaggerated costs for which there was some

:00:03. > :00:09.incredulity expressed at the Public Accounts Committee. Unless none of

:00:10. > :00:15.the functions being carried out in Sheffield, and those are functions

:00:16. > :00:21.on the higher education White Paper and policy in general on further

:00:22. > :00:25.education, unless none of those will be replaced in London, the letter

:00:26. > :00:34.provided by the Secretary only provided a very single side of the

:00:35. > :00:38.story, because that costs will be incurred in replacing those posts of

:00:39. > :00:43.people who do not move in London, so this is simply a case of cutting 247

:00:44. > :00:50.posts because they happen to be in Sheffield, which aren't by

:00:51. > :00:55.definition ?10,000 cheaper. A decision is taken without regard for

:00:56. > :01:00.costs for policy, without regard to the expertise which would be lost,

:01:01. > :01:06.and the highly regarded Conservative special adviser with in the

:01:07. > :01:10.apartment, Nick Hellman, has lamented the loss of in situ should

:01:11. > :01:15.not act to step this will involve and condemned the decision because

:01:16. > :01:21.of it. I'm grateful to my honourable friend forgiving way. Many in

:01:22. > :01:25.Cardiff Central work for the insolvency service and at the time

:01:26. > :01:31.we have the collapse of steel and BHS, you would think that government

:01:32. > :01:36.would want to retain staff with expertise in insolvency but there

:01:37. > :01:45.are many jobs at risk. This he agreed this does not seem to be a

:01:46. > :01:49.sensible policy? It doesn't did, and I think other departments are

:01:50. > :01:54.recognising that problem. DFA are trying to take some of the Sheffield

:01:55. > :02:00.-based BIS staff into their head count because they are really

:02:01. > :02:04.worried about the loss of in situ should not expertise on the shared

:02:05. > :02:11.programmes and chaired policy agenda between the DLP and BIS.

:02:12. > :02:15.Institutional experience and expertise it is a worrying issue and

:02:16. > :02:22.of concern in the Government's ability to deliver its agenda in

:02:23. > :02:29.these areas, this begins to look like a lazy decision. Easily taken

:02:30. > :02:37.by top managers in the Department, based on a prejudice that policy

:02:38. > :02:40.people should be in Whitehall. It's not a prejudice shared by other

:02:41. > :02:46.government departments. That DFA celebrates the fact that it has

:02:47. > :02:53.members of staff making a lossy in offices around the country, bringing

:02:54. > :02:56.the experience of their lives lived and working in the regions and

:02:57. > :03:00.nations to those decisions. I thank him for giving way and

:03:01. > :03:06.congratulations on securing this debate. He will be aware that not

:03:07. > :03:11.only have the Department for Education made it clear they do not

:03:12. > :03:17.feel it is for the good of education policy to move staff to London, they

:03:18. > :03:22.share a building with BIS staff and alongside that is a skills agency

:03:23. > :03:25.who also when questioned confirmed that they had no problem with having

:03:26. > :03:31.good, bright start based in Sheffield to do policy work. Isn't

:03:32. > :03:36.it worrying, this sense from BIS that we should move all that policy

:03:37. > :03:42.jobs, often highly qualified jobs, to London. What does that say to

:03:43. > :03:51.young people outside London? I thank her for her intervention and robust

:03:52. > :03:55.questioning of the Public Accounts Committee and she is right, it sends

:03:56. > :04:01.out the wrong message. When we raised this issue with that

:04:02. > :04:05.permanent Secretary, he pointed out there are many other BIS jobs around

:04:06. > :04:10.the country can but it is as if they are happy to have administrative

:04:11. > :04:17.functions around the country but policy has to be in London. It

:04:18. > :04:22.raises another point about the silo thinking within government, because,

:04:23. > :04:28.as my right honourable friend points out, there is a synergy of having

:04:29. > :04:35.civil servants involved with policy rules in BIS working together and

:04:36. > :04:41.moving them to London will diminish that. I'm interested in this idea of

:04:42. > :04:50.Wallasey and people having to be in the centre. The Department argues

:04:51. > :04:56.this will bring operations closer to ministers, but the Government's

:04:57. > :05:00.strategy says with modern IT, officials no longer necessarily need

:05:01. > :05:04.to be physically resident, for example to brief ministers. This is

:05:05. > :05:11.the Government's own strategy. Having offices on that periphery

:05:12. > :05:18.will encourage local regeneration. Does he detect some conflict? I do,

:05:19. > :05:25.and would reflect that this is the Department of innovation. Leaders in

:05:26. > :05:32.crit of thinking and outside of the box. I think colleagues worry that

:05:33. > :05:37.proper consideration has not given to better options. The Department

:05:38. > :05:44.set an ambitious cost saving strategy in BIS 2020, but what has

:05:45. > :05:49.its thinking been in terms of how it gets there? Normally faced with big

:05:50. > :05:54.decisions, organisations think about the resources they need, model how

:05:55. > :06:00.those resources should be most cost effectively located around the

:06:01. > :06:03.country, then makes the decisions. Decisions about office closures

:06:04. > :06:08.would naturally come at the end of that process, not at the beginning,

:06:09. > :06:13.as has been the case here, putting the cart before the horse. I thank

:06:14. > :06:18.him for giving way in his excellent speech. Wouldn't part of that

:06:19. > :06:25.process people prefer consultation with trade unions involved and could

:06:26. > :06:31.he say something on that? I think he makes an important point, we saw a

:06:32. > :06:37.process of consultation which concluded on the 2nd of May. Trade

:06:38. > :06:43.unions, working with the staff affected, but in some substantial

:06:44. > :06:46.submissions and proposals and I will seek reassurances from the minister

:06:47. > :06:54.that they will be properly considered on their merits given did

:06:55. > :07:04.you wake they deserve. As a number of members commented, it may well be

:07:05. > :07:11.that as a result of the review and BIS 2020, there might be relocation

:07:12. > :07:15.of staff, there might be concentration of policy staff in

:07:16. > :07:20.some areas, but Yediot that old policy functions need to be in

:07:21. > :07:25.London is absurd. It is even more ironic given that the wider

:07:26. > :07:31.government policy, as my friend mentioned earlier. The budget this

:07:32. > :07:39.year committed government to moving out of, and I quote, expensive

:07:40. > :07:43.Whitehall accommodation. The Cabinet Office recently launched a raft of

:07:44. > :07:50.measures in a bid to diversify the civil service after one of the

:07:51. > :07:53.Bridge Report's key findings was lower socio economic background

:07:54. > :07:59.students being less likely to move to London. One such measure that the

:08:00. > :08:06.Cabinet Office is recommending, and again I quote, is to take Roger with

:08:07. > :08:10.recruitment outside London by establishing regional assessment

:08:11. > :08:13.centres and the most recent government strategy expresses a

:08:14. > :08:18.commitment to turn around the prevailing tendency to locate head

:08:19. > :08:25.office staff in central London. This is government policy.

:08:26. > :08:33.Has a London MP does my right honourable friend not agree with me

:08:34. > :08:36.that there is actually a problem for London with this centralisation and

:08:37. > :08:42.relocating staff towards London, moreover, eating incredibly

:08:43. > :08:46.expensive accommodation, congestion and so on and most graduates cannot

:08:47. > :08:53.afford to rent in London. Let alone buy their own property. I think my

:08:54. > :08:56.honourable friend asked why I thank my honourable friend for her

:08:57. > :09:00.intervention. I don't think any of us would want this to be seen as a

:09:01. > :09:03.North versus South issue. This decision or this proposal flies in

:09:04. > :09:11.the face of logic for both North and south, it makes no sense in terms of

:09:12. > :09:15.the overheating in London. I think we can share a common agenda on

:09:16. > :09:20.that. Madam Deputy Speaker, earlier colleagues made comments about the

:09:21. > :09:25.Northern Powerhouse agenda at the Northern Powerhouse agenda is

:09:26. > :09:29.something which as a region, South Yorkshire Sheffield, it has been

:09:30. > :09:34.deeply involved in and embraces. It is about encouraging the private

:09:35. > :09:43.sector to invest in the north. To build there. To relocate there. To

:09:44. > :09:48.revive the economy. But if the very department responsible for building

:09:49. > :09:54.the Northern Powerhouse once out of the North, withdrawing 247 highly

:09:55. > :10:02.skilled jobs from the local economy, what message does that send? Madam

:10:03. > :10:04.Deputy Speaker, today's debate has come about because we have not had

:10:05. > :10:11.answers from the permanent secretary to the key -- to the key questions

:10:12. > :10:15.we asked so now is the ministers opportunity so I want to conclude by

:10:16. > :10:20.asking for key questions. To which members of this house and the

:10:21. > :10:23.hard-working staff in this office in Sheffield have been seeking answers

:10:24. > :10:31.since January, and I gave the minister advance sight of these

:10:32. > :10:35.questions at last Wednesday, or the department advance the site last

:10:36. > :10:40.Wednesday so there could be full consideration to copper heads of

:10:41. > :10:45.answers. Now the four questions were, what assessment has been made

:10:46. > :10:50.of the additional costs of replacing the posts in London? In reaching the

:10:51. > :10:53.decision to close the Sheffield office. A core question we happen

:10:54. > :10:59.asking all along. Secondly what assessment has been made of this

:11:00. > :11:04.decision against the government objectives of moving out of

:11:05. > :11:07.expensive Whitehall accommodation? Aggressive in the civil service and

:11:08. > :11:12.not locating head office functions in the capital. Thirdly, what

:11:13. > :11:17.assessment has been made of the impression created by this decision

:11:18. > :11:22.to move the functions of the Northern Powerhouse apartment offers

:11:23. > :11:28.to London? Fourthly, what consideration has been given to the

:11:29. > :11:31.other options for achieving the bidders 2020 objectives aside from

:11:32. > :11:37.the proposals to centralise policy functions in London? I understand

:11:38. > :11:42.the decision which was at one stage to have been taken by the ears

:11:43. > :11:47.bought the model is now being postponed and will be announced in

:11:48. > :11:52.the week commencing 23rd of May. And I hope that reflect a willingness to

:11:53. > :11:55.think seriously about the concerns that have been raised and I hope

:11:56. > :11:59.that the minister will recognise that if this proposal goes ahead

:12:00. > :12:05.then the scrutiny that we are proposing today in this motion

:12:06. > :12:08.through The National Audit Office will find the proposal as it stands

:12:09. > :12:13.to be flawed and she will accept therefore that it is in the

:12:14. > :12:16.interests of good policy-making, of effective use of public funds and

:12:17. > :12:20.confidence in the case for the North that this is the right time to

:12:21. > :12:25.accept ministerial authority and pull the plug on the closure of the

:12:26. > :12:32.Sheffield office. The question is as the order paper, David Mould. I

:12:33. > :12:36.thank you Madam Deputy Speaker it is a pleasure to follow the member for

:12:37. > :12:40.Sheffield. He made a very coherent speech. I also congratulate him on

:12:41. > :12:43.leading the charge of this whole area. Madam David is Speaker unlike

:12:44. > :12:46.him I don't have a direct constituency interest in this. My

:12:47. > :12:53.interest came about because I was one of those involved in the PAC

:12:54. > :12:57.questioning the permanent secretary, and it struck me that unlike the

:12:58. > :13:01.speech we have just heard, with the logic and reason is given for this

:13:02. > :13:04.decision were less than coherent and that they raised a number of

:13:05. > :13:09.potential issues about contradictory government policy. I will come to

:13:10. > :13:17.talk about page 2020, I am not against it at all. I think we need

:13:18. > :13:22.the benefits of the Sheffield close to bring about the benefits of biz

:13:23. > :13:26.9020 but there are issues in the way it is being rolled out and talk

:13:27. > :13:29.about tween that and indeed the devolution strategy and the northern

:13:30. > :13:35.Powerhouse strategy and indeed the government's state strategy which

:13:36. > :13:38.came out most recently in 2014, and add a further piece of analysis

:13:39. > :13:43.further to the strategy and all the rest of it and the general intention

:13:44. > :13:48.to try and get jobs out of London, civil service jobs out of London.

:13:49. > :13:51.Something that since 2010 unfortunately we have found that the

:13:52. > :13:54.civil service has become more concentrated in London that was

:13:55. > :14:01.previously. So there are contradictions. I am addressing my

:14:02. > :14:05.remarks to the biz board as we have just had to have yet to make this

:14:06. > :14:10.decision, I am also addressing my remarks to Mr Donnelly who I believe

:14:11. > :14:14.has got a chance to go back some aspect of this and to Mr Manzoni and

:14:15. > :14:20.he would, both of whom have responsibility for consistency and

:14:21. > :14:23.design principles -- of designers of a buzz around the civil service and

:14:24. > :14:31.some elements of what is happening in Biz 9020 do not take -- do not

:14:32. > :14:36.make sense, if this is not an issue for Mr Manzoni and Mr Hayward then I

:14:37. > :14:41.am not sure what the jobs are. In terms of Biz 2020 first of all I

:14:42. > :14:48.would say I support the needs, I support the need to rationalise.

:14:49. > :14:53.Ministers have been given the target to save money, if it can be saved

:14:54. > :14:56.then we should do it. If it does not affect efficiency and effectiveness

:14:57. > :14:59.then we should do it. There are currently 18 sites across the

:15:00. > :15:02.country in they will rationalise that to eight and I have no issue

:15:03. > :15:05.with the principle of that. We will rationalise that to eight and I have

:15:06. > :15:08.no issue with the principle of that. We'll will come on to understand

:15:09. > :15:10.whether that it should be 97 that decision being made but I have no

:15:11. > :15:18.difficulty with that at all. There are 35 partnership bodies in this,

:15:19. > :15:22.there is clearly a need to change. We had in the previous speech the

:15:23. > :15:25.permanent secretary often said that it is quite a disputed department

:15:26. > :15:29.and I accept that. I'm sure the Minister will have that this is to

:15:30. > :15:37.talk about how much Biz is outside London. This isn't a logical reason

:15:38. > :15:40.to bring more of that into London. The permanent secretary used a

:15:41. > :15:46.phrase when he was talking about this, he said that this is the hub

:15:47. > :15:49.and spoke strategy that we are implementing in Biz 2020. The

:15:50. > :15:53.principle of the hub and spoke strategy is that all policy has to

:15:54. > :15:56.be in one place, that is the hub. And all of the other bits at the

:15:57. > :15:59.spokes and we have one hub in London, where the ministers are,

:16:00. > :16:05.maybe that is that enough, and we have all these spokes, seven or

:16:06. > :16:11.eight. When I first heard that I thought OK, we're going to have all

:16:12. > :16:14.policy in one place. There could be some logic in having all of the

:16:15. > :16:19.policy in one place. My first inclination was does that mean ten

:16:20. > :16:23.people doing policy all have to be in London working together? Even 20,

:16:24. > :16:33.even 50. The number of people that need to be in one place to do policy

:16:34. > :16:37.altogether is apparently 1600. That is not rational, rather again it is

:16:38. > :16:41.it -- rather it raises the question of what is meant by policy and

:16:42. > :16:47.strategy. That is the advice that McKenzie have given them. Apparently

:16:48. > :16:51.based on a small amount of input, I know that you don't get an awful lot

:16:52. > :16:57.of days out of McKenzie for ?200,000 and I do accept that this is the Biz

:16:58. > :17:01.strategy and is not a McKenzie strategy, and the accountability for

:17:02. > :17:06.it is with this, and the phrase hub and spoke does come from that. We

:17:07. > :17:10.will come to that policy. The Northern Powerhouse, we have talked

:17:11. > :17:15.about that, the need for devolution and there is a need to bring GPA to

:17:16. > :17:19.head up to the same level, as best he can, as it is in London. If we

:17:20. > :17:25.were able to do that that would be great. The difficulty is that

:17:26. > :17:29.actually apart from, in fact including Scotland, there is no

:17:30. > :17:33.region of the UK which has more government spending per capita than

:17:34. > :17:37.London, except for Northern Ireland which has historic reasons. And we

:17:38. > :17:43.see it in this decision. That is why we end up with a great concentration

:17:44. > :17:49.of civil servants in London at all that goes with that. At other times

:17:50. > :17:52.and places we have the same issue as transport spent. And the

:17:53. > :17:57.concentration of transport spend in London, which is in my view at least

:17:58. > :18:01.partially due to a London centric is of thinking due to the fact that so

:18:02. > :18:05.many of the civil service and top policymakers are here. It is also

:18:06. > :18:09.true that there have been cut right across the civil service since 2010

:18:10. > :18:14.and I do not oppose that. 9% of those cuts occurred in London, and

:18:15. > :18:18.20% have occurred in the regions. That is from the Institute of

:18:19. > :18:25.government. The consequence of that is that now be civil service is 18%

:18:26. > :18:33.in London, it was 16% in London six years ago. That is the statistic

:18:34. > :18:38.from the Institute of government. And I don't think that is acceptable

:18:39. > :18:45.or the right answer. Thank you for giving way. I think he's making a

:18:46. > :18:47.very coherent case. And he understand my constituents? The cure

:18:48. > :18:53.the word Northern Powerhouse and they see what does it mean? And you

:18:54. > :18:56.see it means transferring powers and responsibilities for decision making

:18:57. > :19:00.outside London to the regions, and they say well why are you taking all

:19:01. > :19:03.of these jobs from Sheffield and transferring them back to London?

:19:04. > :19:08.Isn't that inconsistent with what the government claims its objectives

:19:09. > :19:14.are? It is not from you to add to that intervention but I would say

:19:15. > :19:17.that yes is the answer. But the Northern Powerhouse is about more,

:19:18. > :19:22.in all fairness, the public sector investments in private sector

:19:23. > :19:25.investment, judge and jury of the Northern Powerhouse when the time

:19:26. > :19:30.comes to see whether it has what cannot is whether or not TVA

:19:31. > :19:34.pierhead, the gap and that has close and we'll see. But it is about more,

:19:35. > :19:43.in all fairness than civil service jobs. I make this point, Mr Donnelly

:19:44. > :19:49.made will accept analysis we have just heard from the member about

:19:50. > :19:54.cost, his point would be "Efficacy by having one of these policymakers

:19:55. > :19:57.and one point four. That is not a view shared by other permits

:19:58. > :20:07.secretaries but that is what he would say. That argument runs away

:20:08. > :20:13.when he is talking about 1600 of them as opposed to 100 of them being

:20:14. > :20:16.in that one place, because it does not bear thinking about. We talk

:20:17. > :20:23.about this state strategy. Just to say this, really, that review was

:20:24. > :20:25.published in 2014 and with a lot of quite sexy examples of how the

:20:26. > :20:31.government is saving examples -- saving money about rationalising and

:20:32. > :20:34.moving things out of the capital and the talk about the Department of

:20:35. > :20:40.Justice as a case study. They talk about MOD. The startling statistic

:20:41. > :20:44.in the is that the accommodation cost for some of the Whitehall was

:20:45. > :20:51.?35,000 per annum, while if it was in Croydon that is still a

:20:52. > :20:55.relatively busy place it was ?3000. It is clear to me that what we're

:20:56. > :20:58.talking about today also contradictory to that space

:20:59. > :21:05.strategy, and another reason why I think that Mr is Manzoni and

:21:06. > :21:12.Donnelly needs to get the act together in terms of this. I want to

:21:13. > :21:16.talk about the things in more detail. This hub and spoke strategy

:21:17. > :21:21.they have talked about, this needs to have all 1600 people in one

:21:22. > :21:29.place. Mr Donnelly has said that is what Vodafone do. That is what

:21:30. > :21:32.Google do. I have surprised at that but I accept that. I can get other

:21:33. > :21:38.examples of organisations that don't do that. Many of them who would take

:21:39. > :21:42.the view of actually having people who are doing strategy in different

:21:43. > :21:45.geographic locations helps formulate that strategy, particularly if that

:21:46. > :21:51.strategy is being applied across those patients. So I don't fill that

:21:52. > :21:57.to be coherent, but if that is policy of the civil service, why

:21:58. > :22:03.doesn't only apply to Biz? Why is it that strategy in the education

:22:04. > :22:07.department doesn't always have to be in one place where those with Biz it

:22:08. > :22:12.does? Why does the strategy in the Justice Department not have to be in

:22:13. > :22:15.one place but with Biz it does? It would be recent or that the people

:22:16. > :22:18.who are charged with running the civil service could address that,

:22:19. > :22:24.but -- are running the civil service could address that question. There

:22:25. > :22:27.are lots and lots of rationalisations of the civil

:22:28. > :22:31.service coming up in the next decade. We should note that it is a

:22:32. > :22:34.considered position of the civil service that policy is in one place,

:22:35. > :22:38.let's make sure that everybody knows that when they're doing it because

:22:39. > :22:42.if they are, education is doing it wrong, justice is doing it wrong and

:22:43. > :22:52.HMRC may be doing it wrong as well. We have had a great deal in terms of

:22:53. > :22:58.the costing of it, but... 2020 has not been published, it is not the

:22:59. > :23:02.public domain, and I love murder charge ?100,000 for what I'm about

:23:03. > :23:06.to say. I'm going to say that the hub and spoke strategy may well be

:23:07. > :23:11.worth thinking about but there is a mallet variation. And that is this.

:23:12. > :23:17.It is the double hub and spoke strategy. It can be a model, just

:23:18. > :23:21.like they have, all these consultants have models but if you

:23:22. > :23:24.have a starting point with all of these people in another hub it does

:23:25. > :23:29.seem to me in the context of reducing the size of a missing

:23:30. > :23:33.anyway, rather odd that you must impose this single hub strategy on

:23:34. > :23:37.the whole thing. So if the Biz board to get the chance to go through

:23:38. > :23:40.Hansard, I would like them to figure about the double hub and spoke

:23:41. > :23:43.strategy and reflect on the fact that almost certainly given the

:23:44. > :23:47.analysis that we heard from the member from Sheffield, it will save

:23:48. > :23:54.money. As well as being equally effective.

:23:55. > :24:03.Finally, a policy point about the role of London in terms of the civil

:24:04. > :24:06.service and we talked about the fact it is the major location of civil

:24:07. > :24:12.servants, it tends to be the most senior ones and I do not leave it is

:24:13. > :24:16.a core incidents that as a consequence current public spending

:24:17. > :24:21.in London is higher per capita than anywhere else in the UK, and this

:24:22. > :24:27.sort of decision will exacerbate that. I used this phrase to the

:24:28. > :24:32.Public Accounts Committee, it doesn't smell right. Finally, I

:24:33. > :24:38.would say this to the BIS board. Make sure when you analyse this

:24:39. > :24:42.proposal that you have asked some of the same questions you have heard

:24:43. > :24:47.asked today and which I am sure will be asked later this afternoon.

:24:48. > :24:53.Similarly, Mr Manzoni and Mr Hayward, there are points of

:24:54. > :24:59.coherence of BIS, you need to satisfy yourselves you are happy

:25:00. > :25:05.decisions being made across the wider civil service by rational, and

:25:06. > :25:08.finally, to Mr Donnelly, the owner of this in terms of the civil

:25:09. > :25:13.servants, he needs to reflect on whether the hub and spoke system

:25:14. > :25:18.that he is attached to is worth dying into ditches for or whether a

:25:19. > :25:27.double hob and spoke strategy, which would save money, would be more

:25:28. > :25:36.sensible and have design purity, and if the way to achieve that is an

:25:37. > :25:40.audit of costs, then so be it. I hope that we will need a formal time

:25:41. > :25:46.limit but this is a short debate and F everyone who wishes to set it

:25:47. > :25:49.keeps their remarks to under ten minutes, everyone will have a chance

:25:50. > :25:58.to make their views known. Nick Clegg. Thank you, Madam Deputy

:25:59. > :26:03.Speaker. I am grateful to the honourable member for Sheffield

:26:04. > :26:09.Central for securing this debate and I support him, across party lines,

:26:10. > :26:15.in our shared endeavour to have the National Audit Office looked at a

:26:16. > :26:18.decision which remains in my view unjustified and opaque on the basis

:26:19. > :26:25.on which it has been arrived at. I am also grateful to the minister for

:26:26. > :26:30.being there. To be fair to her, she will not be in a position to do the

:26:31. > :26:36.origins of this eccentric and unjustified decision, and the more

:26:37. > :26:41.time has elapsed since it was announced, the more obvious it is

:26:42. > :26:47.that what happened was that the BIS Department in the Whitehall scrum

:26:48. > :26:54.that occurs when, as I discovered in five years in government, when the

:26:55. > :26:57.Treasury cracks the whip and a savings and obliging departments are

:26:58. > :27:03.told to jump ever higher and cut ever deeper, that BIS Department

:27:04. > :27:11.took a decision, they are free to take it, to offer of far greater

:27:12. > :27:15.cuts than I think is justified or necessary compared to other

:27:16. > :27:24.Whitehall departments, that not only affect the mini in I have who work

:27:25. > :27:28.in the BIS office but many other BIS projects which have been cancelled,

:27:29. > :27:34.and once that his vision was taken at BIS should offer greater

:27:35. > :27:41.sacrifices in that Whitehall raced to offer savings to the Treasury,

:27:42. > :27:47.the Department, as was pointed out, lurched to a rather panicky and lazy

:27:48. > :27:52.response to create the impression of a number of savings that duty have

:27:53. > :27:57.deep political affect of creating the noise and buying rush and

:27:58. > :28:03.controversy around savings but, as we are discovering, do not actually

:28:04. > :28:08.produce material savings. That is the genesis of all this and it is

:28:09. > :28:12.important to understand that as we seek to ask the National Audit

:28:13. > :28:20.Office to cast an expert light on the decision. What is the evidence

:28:21. > :28:28.for that description of what has gone on? It is worth comparing the

:28:29. > :28:32.savings that BIS have offered up to Treasury in this Parliament compared

:28:33. > :28:41.to the last. In the last Parliament, in those five years, that BIS

:28:42. > :28:47.savings amounted to 18%, and agonising 18% of total savings to

:28:48. > :28:51.the BIS Department budget, which meant it was middle of the table in

:28:52. > :28:58.terms of departments offering savings. What is striking is that it

:28:59. > :29:03.seemed percent has gone up to 26% in this Parliament, which means BIS now

:29:04. > :29:09.leaps from mid table in terms of savings offered to enduring the

:29:10. > :29:16.second largest cut, well over ?4 billion. That was the choice taken

:29:17. > :29:23.and accepted by the Treasury, I think it is very unwise even the

:29:24. > :29:28.importance BIS plays in trying to foster dynamism and investments in

:29:29. > :29:32.our private sector, to support our challenged manufacturing sector, to

:29:33. > :29:38.reform and support further education, which is so important to

:29:39. > :29:44.the long-term prosperity of our nation, but that was diseases and

:29:45. > :29:49.taken, which then led to this rather desperate attempt to gather to

:29:50. > :29:55.gather lots of savings in a hurry to meet that headline, in my view

:29:56. > :30:01.somewhat Draconian cuts of 26% to the budget, which then led to the

:30:02. > :30:06.announced closure of the Sheffield office. The honourable member for

:30:07. > :30:12.Sheffield Central referred to the parser take of the pronouncements on

:30:13. > :30:18.exactly how much this will save and he is right. In response to a

:30:19. > :30:26.parliamentary question in April, the Department estimates the current

:30:27. > :30:32.annual cost of the Sheffield office is 500,000 travel, 890,000 rent, and

:30:33. > :30:38.150,000 of hotel stays, and these savings with the independent on any

:30:39. > :30:44.decision on headcount reductions, so the only concrete figure I have got

:30:45. > :30:52.is a figure of ?1.54 million worth of savings. That is the risible,

:30:53. > :30:57.almost invisible amount when set against total government

:30:58. > :31:09.expenditure. When set against BIS's annual expenditure it is about

:31:10. > :31:15.0.005% of BIS expenditure. It is 0.002% of Mike I kill Asians of

:31:16. > :31:22.government spending, a tiny amount given the loss of expertise -- my

:31:23. > :31:27.calculations. Other relocation costs are not even factored into those. I

:31:28. > :31:33.was asking somebody how much is that the trees outside cost. I was told

:31:34. > :31:40.that renting 12 fig trees cost ?32,000. What BIS is saving is the

:31:41. > :31:49.equivalent of renting just over 550 figtree 's. I think that is such a

:31:50. > :31:58.piffling saving compared to the cost to BIS's expertise in that important

:31:59. > :32:04.area of policy. It also, as mentioned, flies directly in the

:32:05. > :32:11.face of stated government policy not only stated policy, very recently

:32:12. > :32:19.stated policies. The Bridge Report issued in February has confirmed the

:32:20. > :32:25.London-based nature of the civil fast stream, emphasised by much of

:32:26. > :32:28.the literature featuring London landmarks, as a deterrent for many

:32:29. > :32:34.students from lower socio economic backgrounds. The budget document in

:32:35. > :32:40.2016 stated that the Government is working on an ambitious strategy to

:32:41. > :32:44.move civil servants out of Whitehall accommodation and into the suburbs

:32:45. > :32:54.of London, so in the face of a decision which has at its origin and

:32:55. > :33:00.excessive zeal on the part of BIS to satisfy a Treasury demand in this

:33:01. > :33:06.self harming manner at the time of the comprehensive spending round

:33:07. > :33:11.last year, given that all the evidence so far suggests savings, if

:33:12. > :33:17.there are any, or of an almost invisible nature, and given that the

:33:18. > :33:22.decision is not only damaging to the kid adjoins I represent, to the

:33:23. > :33:28.know-how and expertise and collective memory of the BIS

:33:29. > :33:31.Department, it flies in the face of the Government's stated affection

:33:32. > :33:36.for the Northern powerhouse and other policies, I think the least

:33:37. > :33:42.this House could do, the least the minister who is speaking from a

:33:43. > :33:48.sedentary position could do, is reflect seriously on what is and

:33:49. > :33:57.uncontroversial request, the National Audit Office casts an

:33:58. > :34:05.objective by on this decision. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker, and it is

:34:06. > :34:09.a pleasure to follow the right or old member for Sheffield Hallam,

:34:10. > :34:14.although some might remark it makes a change for a Conservative to

:34:15. > :34:17.follow him. I would like to congratulate the member for

:34:18. > :34:27.Sheffield Central for securing this debate. My focus would more be about

:34:28. > :34:30.the principle of moving government departments out of London. Even

:34:31. > :34:35.though she has now disappeared from her place, it was good to see the

:34:36. > :34:39.member for Sheffield Brightside in the chamber and I know the former

:34:40. > :34:45.member would have been here had he been able to do so. In terms of

:34:46. > :34:49.looking at why it's right to move government departments out of London

:34:50. > :34:56.and the wider south-east because some of the issues with difficult

:34:57. > :35:02.days of locating in London, well outlined in the intervention, apply

:35:03. > :35:09.to locations close to London as well, and I looked at the success of

:35:10. > :35:12.the Met Office in Exeter and how they have managed to not only

:35:13. > :35:18.relocate their own Department and their own work well but help provide

:35:19. > :35:25.a douche to businesses all around by locating the very high skilled in

:35:26. > :35:30.intensive activity to Exeter and providing the jobs and opportunities

:35:31. > :35:34.that we often say are only available in large metropolitan areas and

:35:35. > :35:39.bringing them into the far south-west. I hope that as we look

:35:40. > :35:46.more increasingly at opportunities to take departments out of London,

:35:47. > :35:50.places like Torbay will be considered, and in particular the

:35:51. > :35:56.plan for a public service have in Torquay, that the Torbay development

:35:57. > :36:00.agency has been promoting, that would see a chance to both

:36:01. > :36:05.regenerate a site around the Riviera International Centre, a chance for

:36:06. > :36:10.staff at the centre to live in one of the best places in the country

:36:11. > :36:15.were some of the best schools, but also provide a huge cost saving to

:36:16. > :36:20.the Government compared to locating similar jobs in London, and it is

:36:21. > :36:24.worth remembering that when we free of office space in London it doesn't

:36:25. > :36:29.mean that jobs are lost there, in many cases the buildings in London

:36:30. > :36:34.soon have more people working in the day higher salary can given the huge

:36:35. > :36:41.pressure for development and office space in London. In terms of the

:36:42. > :36:46.specifics of this debate, I don't intend to get into details around

:36:47. > :36:49.the issue in Sheffield given the much more knowledgeable speakers on

:36:50. > :36:53.the subject, but is worth saying that one of the concerns I have

:36:54. > :36:59.always had around looking at Department in London is that too

:37:00. > :37:05.often we only review them when a lease is expiring, when a building

:37:06. > :37:07.needs to be sold or when the Treasury is putting pressure on, so

:37:08. > :37:14.it is in some ways welcome that BIS have been cracked in reviewing their

:37:15. > :37:19.office estate, it is also important to remember the risk a consultation

:37:20. > :37:24.on going on the specifics of these proposals in terms of the debate

:37:25. > :37:28.today and I am sure the minister will be taking on board of the

:37:29. > :37:32.comments that have been made, but it is important that we do not just

:37:33. > :37:38.have reviews when a lease expires, went to risk an absolute need to

:37:39. > :37:44.think about what should removing out but two would productively as well.

:37:45. > :37:49.It is vital that, speaking as an MP from the south-west, that locating

:37:50. > :37:54.people outside London is more of a field for the regional policies that

:37:55. > :37:58.are being delivered, be that in the north-west, north-east, the

:37:59. > :38:05.Midlands, Yorkshire and the Humber or in the far south-west. It is

:38:06. > :38:08.right that we continue the drive. There will always be some functions

:38:09. > :38:14.that remain in London, mostly those direct related to supporting

:38:15. > :38:18.government and when we have a debate about this place and its future,

:38:19. > :38:22.given the need for the refurbishment is, I don't think anyone is

:38:23. > :38:26.seriously suggesting that the core functions of government could be

:38:27. > :38:31.moved away from the capital, but the rock more chances that could be

:38:32. > :38:35.explored such as the one I highlighted in my constituency, and

:38:36. > :38:41.also using those skilled jobs to help stimulus the sort of training

:38:42. > :38:45.courses, aspiration and giving more people the opportunities that we

:38:46. > :38:47.wish to aspire to without having to incur the costs of moving to the

:38:48. > :39:07.capital. Growing up in a family that was rich

:39:08. > :39:11.in love but not in money, we found that the option to stay in the spare

:39:12. > :39:16.room had disappeared. And with it the likelihood of sensibly being

:39:17. > :39:19.able to take up opportunities in London. I actually, given the cost,

:39:20. > :39:26.ended up spending a year commuting from Coventry to London, because it

:39:27. > :39:29.worked it is cheaper with at that time a young person's real courage

:39:30. > :39:33.to commute daily over 100 miles out was to live somewhere within the

:39:34. > :39:38.vicinity of where I was studying. And it is a challenge that applies

:39:39. > :39:43.to many other honourable member sitting in the chamber, said of

:39:44. > :39:46.particular specialist training courses and experience that are only

:39:47. > :39:49.available in the capital that actually are very difficult unless

:39:50. > :39:54.you have literally a granny or anti-war and uncle are you can act

:39:55. > :39:59.the go and stay with because I think that the set of challenges and that

:40:00. > :40:02.in context for this debate. I welcome the fact that this debate

:40:03. > :40:05.has been brought to the fore, and I'm sure the Minister will look to

:40:06. > :40:08.respond to the specific points brought up by the Sheffield offers

:40:09. > :40:12.but I also hope in response to this we also have the chance to fight the

:40:13. > :40:16.weather opportunities that we were getting from a department out of the

:40:17. > :40:18.capital present in particular in the far south-west we have already seen

:40:19. > :40:25.the success of the Met office and then more can come to follow. Thank

:40:26. > :40:28.you madam David is bigger. Can I also along with the member for

:40:29. > :40:33.Torbay thank my honourable friend the member for Sheffield Central for

:40:34. > :40:38.getting this debate in the backbench business committee for declaring it

:40:39. > :40:42.as well. I would like to start with a quote that the minister gave to my

:40:43. > :40:46.honourable friend the member for Sheffield Ealing when she posed an

:40:47. > :40:53.urgent question in this whole issue earlier this year. The member for

:40:54. > :40:57.proximal set and I quote, we are having to ensure that we spend

:40:58. > :41:03.public money wisely. Unfortunately that means we must reduce the number

:41:04. > :41:06.of people working for us. I have to say there is a debate in itself

:41:07. > :41:12.there about whether or not looking at things on basis of cutting jobs

:41:13. > :41:16.is necessarily a wise thing to do. It might be a few years whether we

:41:17. > :41:19.know whether it is a wise thing to do or not. She then went on to say

:41:20. > :41:23.that we must make sure we use the money to best effect, which is why

:41:24. > :41:28.we consider the decisions are so very carefully, as I hope that she

:41:29. > :41:31.understands that we would. I have to say that I think most of us would

:41:32. > :41:35.like to know if they took the right decision or not. The sad fact is

:41:36. > :41:41.that there are many issues around this that we just don't know. And

:41:42. > :41:44.the report that the honourable member from Warrington South

:41:45. > :41:50.mentioned earlier the so-called consider port, the cost of some

:41:51. > :41:54.?200,000 has not yet been published and yet we are all this way down the

:41:55. > :42:01.road to having this decision which we think is going to take place. It

:42:02. > :42:06.really, why we can't have that report, so we see of this decision

:42:07. > :42:09.does stand up to proper scrutiny as a pro -- as opposed to whether or

:42:10. > :42:14.not we are to have a report. I have to say that I was looking at when

:42:15. > :42:16.the Premier Secretary gave evidence to the select committee, my

:42:17. > :42:21.honourable friend the member for Sheffield Central has said that

:42:22. > :42:25.question 72, if there was more than one paper we could probably look at

:42:26. > :42:30.them, also if you could share those with as it would be helpful. Can you

:42:31. > :42:34.also share the McKinsey report with us? The permanent secretary replied

:42:35. > :42:38.the McKinsey report was about a set of actions to validate internal

:42:39. > :42:43.tabulations, both quantitative and in terms of the strategic vision. He

:42:44. > :42:46.then contradicts himself to questions later. Question 74 my

:42:47. > :42:53.honourable friend the member for Sheffield Central says so will you

:42:54. > :42:56.share those papers with others? Permanent secretary then said there

:42:57. > :43:00.is not such a thing as a McKinsey report. But there is a McKinsey

:43:01. > :43:08.input into a set of different aspects of the work that we were

:43:09. > :43:11.doing. Because -- I will see what information we can then share

:43:12. > :43:15.because the process where we have to come to a very clear business

:43:16. > :43:20.conclusion in terms of a sustainable model for the departments delivered.

:43:21. > :43:24.I have to say that is as clear as mud, that's that lot they are, and

:43:25. > :43:27.the idea that we take the decision that is going to affect my

:43:28. > :43:32.constituents and many other people's constituent in here is beyond the

:43:33. > :43:36.pale. Madam Deputy Speaker we have to look at this really against the

:43:37. > :43:41.backdrop of what is reported in the Financial Times recently, it is said

:43:42. > :43:47.that 20% of civil service jobs have been lost in the regions since 2010.

:43:48. > :43:51.As opposed to only 9% in London. I believe that is an extraordinary

:43:52. > :43:55.figure, and it seems to lie against the main said that we have had, or

:43:56. > :43:59.should have had in government, not for the last five or six years but

:44:00. > :44:04.for decades. I remember very well when the Labour government built the

:44:05. > :44:09.manufacturing park near Sheffield, it was actually in Rotherham but it

:44:10. > :44:13.is often called Sheffield, which was a glowing example of what government

:44:14. > :44:18.can do if they have an intention to do it. It is a centre of excellence

:44:19. > :44:21.tale, ministers go in there every other week, smiling to the cameras

:44:22. > :44:24.at everything else and saying how wonderful it is. That is what

:44:25. > :44:30.government can do if they have the intention to do it. Over this issue

:44:31. > :44:37.I was contacted by a person who is now in the third decade in the civil

:44:38. > :44:40.service. They quoted and I have worked in the civil service ten

:44:41. > :44:44.years in London and the rest in Sheffield, for the majority of that

:44:45. > :44:47.time I have worked in teams that have been split between Sheffield

:44:48. > :44:52.and London. To my knowledge there has never been any issues regarding

:44:53. > :44:56.the quality of work or negative impact on the policy decisions,

:44:57. > :45:02.policy work due to operating split site teams. Aside from the obvious

:45:03. > :45:07.impact on me personally with respect of having to find another job, I'm

:45:08. > :45:11.confident that the effect this will have the city of Sheffield is

:45:12. > :45:14.earning areas and I'm still to decide that I try to understand why

:45:15. > :45:19.the Department for business take such a step. Not only will this

:45:20. > :45:23.close I have to say, Madame liberty Speaker, be devastating for South

:45:24. > :45:26.Yorkshire, it will lead to a huge source of expertise for the

:45:27. > :45:33.Department for example, the person I have just quoted who has been in the

:45:34. > :45:37.job for decades, the idea that they would come to work in London even if

:45:38. > :45:41.they could afford a property here is a very difficult thing to imagine.

:45:42. > :45:47.The absence of any relocation programme with this closure states

:45:48. > :45:51.volumes, my right honourable friend the member for Sheffield Central, it

:45:52. > :45:55.states volumes of what the intention is here. And this is to get rid of

:45:56. > :46:01.these people and not relocate them down to London. Surely the package

:46:02. > :46:06.would have been the if that was the government's intention. My right

:46:07. > :46:12.honourable friend the member for Sheffield Central spoke of a former

:46:13. > :46:17.special adviser to David Willetts during his time at university and

:46:18. > :46:20.science Minister. He described this closure as and I quote a genuine

:46:21. > :46:29.tragedy for good public policy making. He says that the Sheffield

:46:30. > :46:32.civil servants are -- have a hope is just a memory on higher education

:46:33. > :46:39.and often no more than the policymakers well are normally cause

:46:40. > :46:41.to the centre of power. The staff in Sheffield work closely to external

:46:42. > :46:47.organisations such as employers and educational providers, visiting them

:46:48. > :46:52.to explain policy, funding, deregulation, further and higher

:46:53. > :46:56.rate -- further and higher education as well as listening to the issues

:46:57. > :47:01.so as to be better informed on policy. Having truly London-based

:47:02. > :47:06.staff would be an additional cost, particularly as a result of pay

:47:07. > :47:10.differentials and a service for organisations based in the Midlands

:47:11. > :47:16.and the North. God would be knowledge and understanding of

:47:17. > :47:18.localities, sectors and things that can make the first effective

:47:19. > :47:24.policy-making and allocation of funding. Sheffield staff are also

:47:25. > :47:28.responsible Madam Deputy Speaker for applying strategy and policies of

:47:29. > :47:31.the ground. The sites such as Sheffield should be the vanguard of

:47:32. > :47:36.helping the government to rebalance the economy and to support such

:47:37. > :47:39.rebalancing in the sectors that are most prevalent in their respective

:47:40. > :47:45.regions. It seems particularly strange that Biz was it supposed

:47:46. > :47:56.ambition to create more geographic -- reopen -- geographically balanced

:47:57. > :47:59.departments. It is a complete nonsense and this concept of a

:48:00. > :48:03.Northern Power has is weakened, particularly by these types of

:48:04. > :48:06.decisions which turn on what this government and previous governments

:48:07. > :48:11.have said for years now, that we should be moving out of London and

:48:12. > :48:15.relocating and not the other way. At the last thing I want to say to the

:48:16. > :48:24.Minister is that the people who deserve to see that information that

:48:25. > :48:29.is absent from this debate are the 247 people who have this cloud

:48:30. > :48:32.hanging over the head. As I stated previously, the government must

:48:33. > :48:35.publish all of the facts and I support the motion in calling for

:48:36. > :48:41.The National Audit Office to conduct a cost benefit assessment of the

:48:42. > :48:44.Sheffield proposal so that we can properly review the decision and I

:48:45. > :48:46.hope the Minister will reply to those and to the four questions

:48:47. > :48:53.posed by my honourable friend the member from Sheffield Central, when

:48:54. > :48:56.she takes part in this debate. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I am

:48:57. > :48:59.conscious of the times I will try not to regurgitate too many of the

:49:00. > :49:03.points but can I open up and welcome very much the manner in which the

:49:04. > :49:08.honourable member for Sheffield Central conducted the opening of it.

:49:09. > :49:15.Securing this very important debate. As -- presenting Cardiff North I

:49:16. > :49:23.have HMRC and the Department for Work and Pensions to name but a few

:49:24. > :49:29.within my constituency. I support wholeheartedly the Public Accounts

:49:30. > :49:36.Committee, and I hope those reports are forthcoming. I will hopefully

:49:37. > :49:40.welcome what much of the Minister will see in responding to this

:49:41. > :49:48.debate in looking at this in terms of evidence led. I know from talking

:49:49. > :49:52.to some of the most energetic, determine public servants in Cardiff

:49:53. > :49:58.about this project, there are 20 jobs in companies house that will be

:49:59. > :50:04.moved to London. They feel insulted in terms of the consultation, and

:50:05. > :50:09.this cloud very much the honourable member touched on over the head, the

:50:10. > :50:13.lack of engagement with the staff at companies house is extremely

:50:14. > :50:17.worrying to me. I hope very much, given that this board are postponing

:50:18. > :50:22.but looking more broadly that we can come to some conclusion quite soon

:50:23. > :50:30.that they can of course be seen within the context of that. I would

:50:31. > :50:33.like to emphasise something I was told by companies house to my

:50:34. > :50:37.constituents, that the staff affected by this have never had any

:50:38. > :50:41.per performance measures, have never had indicated to them that their

:50:42. > :50:45.position in Cardiff deterred from the policy advice that they gave to

:50:46. > :50:51.both civil servants and ministers, and it has never been raised with

:50:52. > :50:57.them before, so this coming without the rationale explained to them,

:50:58. > :51:01.they have left very bemused and are seeking answers. I hope very much

:51:02. > :51:07.that this debate and my contribution can help get some clarity, that I

:51:08. > :51:12.can share with my constituents, but I have to say the states and the

:51:13. > :51:20.member from Warrington South that I have endless, loved -- I love this

:51:21. > :51:24.double hob and spinal, and spoke strategy you have come out with. I

:51:25. > :51:28.love that especially the second hub Cardiff. But the estate strategy of

:51:29. > :51:34.this government is extremely welcome in Cardiff because the new

:51:35. > :51:37.government up is extremely reinvigorated part of the city and

:51:38. > :51:41.went HMRC moves in with other departments we do not quite know

:51:42. > :51:46.where in Cardiff but we have a commitment to Cardiff and we see

:51:47. > :51:50.more civil servants jobs coming to our great city, and that government

:51:51. > :51:56.others welcome. But this is the cloud within that excitement in the

:51:57. > :52:01.sector in Cardiff at the moment of them seeing the estate strategy

:52:02. > :52:06.delivering for them. Seeing more jobs in Cardiff but at the same time

:52:07. > :52:12.this decision are they cannot fully understand the rationale, given the

:52:13. > :52:17.roles especially in advising on policy, they do feel insulted in

:52:18. > :52:20.terms of not being properly engaged with. So if there is one thing I

:52:21. > :52:29.want my contribution to do today it is to again... Of course I will give

:52:30. > :52:33.way. I thank the honourable member. Newport PCS members ask me to be at

:52:34. > :52:36.this debate is today to show their support for those who work in the

:52:37. > :52:41.BIS office and also the honourable member mentioned those in Cardiff.

:52:42. > :52:46.Not least because Newport has benefited hugely over the years from

:52:47. > :52:50.the relocation of civil service jobs and the ONS and intellectual

:52:51. > :52:54.property offers that will also fall under BIS 2020. Does the honourable

:52:55. > :52:59.member agree that although this debate is about Sheffield and he

:53:00. > :53:03.mentions Cardiff, it is well worth reiterating to the member just how

:53:04. > :53:06.valued these jobs are across our country, including those in Newport,

:53:07. > :53:14.and how important it is that we protect the "Mark I agree entirely

:53:15. > :53:21.and I hope that the honourable member will welcome alongside me

:53:22. > :53:26.that the ONS and the Cabinet officer cadet of the environment that

:53:27. > :53:29.announcement, and South Wales has a great cluster, a great cluster of UK

:53:30. > :53:35.drama departments. The contribution in terms of policy and all the other

:53:36. > :53:39.instruments that are conducted within these offices is incredible

:53:40. > :53:43.to the UK Government. So I want my contribution today to note that

:53:44. > :53:45.caution, I hope we get some clarity around these issues and again I

:53:46. > :54:02.commend the honourable member. Can I add my thanks to the Backbench

:54:03. > :54:07.Business Committee and to the honourable members who work hard to

:54:08. > :54:11.secure this debate and for all the cross-party support it has gained? I

:54:12. > :54:18.hope the minister understands we will not go away on this issue. It

:54:19. > :54:22.has been an extraordinary decision. BIS has delivered a thumbs down for

:54:23. > :54:27.the Northern powerhouse, for the taxpayer and ministerial colleagues

:54:28. > :54:32.who work lyrical about the benefits of having key staff outside

:54:33. > :54:36.Whitehall. Ahead of the crucial board meeting this month ahead of

:54:37. > :54:41.the consultation, I urge the minister to go into that with an

:54:42. > :54:46.open mind and relate the points made today, because for the people of our

:54:47. > :54:52.city, in addition to close the Sheffield office would be symbolic

:54:53. > :54:57.of a London contempt for the North which has prevailed for far too

:54:58. > :55:02.long. The BIS 2020 plan appears to enforce that content with the London

:55:03. > :55:07.HQ strengthened while regional hosts are threatened. He would have

:55:08. > :55:15.expected the Department for business to sub port such a decision to move

:55:16. > :55:20.all policy-making expertise to wait Northern HQ yet when I was granted

:55:21. > :55:24.an urgent question, the minister assured me it was part of a cost

:55:25. > :55:28.saving programme, yet as we have been told time and again, a cost

:55:29. > :55:34.benefit and not as for the decision does not exist and as my friend for

:55:35. > :55:40.Sheffield Central and others have said, though costs are far higher in

:55:41. > :55:47.London than in Sheffield, Bristol, Cardiff, Darlington for Salford.

:55:48. > :55:51.Taxpayers will continue to fit the bill for the office space in

:55:52. > :55:55.Sheffield anyway as the entire building is leased by the DFE. As

:55:56. > :56:02.BIS is one of the few departments in Whitehall without space to

:56:03. > :56:07.accommodate staff, any further move will mean a rent review is almost

:56:08. > :56:13.certain to hike up the rent again, and the only possible reason we have

:56:14. > :56:17.ascertained is because of the benefit of London water cooler

:56:18. > :56:23.conversations. Well, those must be very good indeed at BIS, yet there

:56:24. > :56:27.has been no palaces of white these conversations out white the

:56:28. > :56:33.institutional memory of staff in Sheffield. In its place we have seen

:56:34. > :56:36.more tired thinking from Whitehall officials who when asked what they

:56:37. > :56:42.wanted up Cartman to look like in 2020 came back with the same

:56:43. > :56:45.Whitehall answers, all employees within eyesight and earshot of the

:56:46. > :56:52.Permanent Secretary and minister. It is astonishing that we have a

:56:53. > :56:57.seemingly inconsequential decision costing taxpayer money and reversing

:56:58. > :57:00.government policy based on lazy assumptions and flimsy

:57:01. > :57:04.justification. In the months since this decision was announced, there

:57:05. > :57:08.has not been any sense from ministers or officials that they

:57:09. > :57:15.recognise the exceptionalism of the Sheffield BIS office. Research

:57:16. > :57:21.excellence in Sheffield is second to none with two fantastic

:57:22. > :57:25.universities, supported by BIS's multi-billion project their vector

:57:26. > :57:29.from Sheffield. Researchers from Sheffield University helped confirm

:57:30. > :57:35.Einstein 's weary of relativity, which would unlock the secrets of

:57:36. > :57:38.the universe. It is also the only office outside Whitehall carrying

:57:39. > :57:44.out high-level Holocene functions and a report from 2020 said power

:57:45. > :57:48.and career opportunities will only truly moved out of London when

:57:49. > :57:53.significant parts of the court Holocene departments are mood. That

:57:54. > :57:57.is what we have in Sheffield and what we put at risk with this

:57:58. > :58:01.decision. The Sheffield office could become the eyes and ears of the

:58:02. > :58:06.Northern restrictions but instead we will have a centralised BIS with

:58:07. > :58:11.their Northern powerhouse minister whose staff are based in London and

:58:12. > :58:14.the Treasury producing their template evolution deals from London

:58:15. > :58:20.with no understanding of the geographic challenges, and this gets

:58:21. > :58:23.to the recent of white it has been a decades-old mantra to move civil

:58:24. > :58:30.servants out of London, cost and perspective. This myth report wanted

:58:31. > :58:33.to move civil servants out of London to bring government closer to the

:58:34. > :58:39.people and stimulate economic vibrancy. This report was based on

:58:40. > :58:47.decades of movement away from Whitehall, which the ministers is

:58:48. > :58:51.Mike Alex encouraging. The MoJ announced a large-scale move away

:58:52. > :58:58.from London and the DFE are looking to expand their base further. Having

:58:59. > :59:02.civil servants in other parts of the country can only be a good thing.

:59:03. > :59:07.The minister will know doubt be adamant that this plan will continue

:59:08. > :59:11.the existing arrangements and more civil servants will be outside

:59:12. > :59:17.London than inside. The report ref to today revealed that even that

:59:18. > :59:22.does not hold water. All jobs under threat regional, including places

:59:23. > :59:27.like Lancaster, Cardiff and Bristol. The skills funding agency working to

:59:28. > :59:37.deliver the app predator target is set to be some slashed --

:59:38. > :59:42.government's apprenticeship target. Rather, a town where public sector

:59:43. > :59:48.jobs act as a ballast, will be left counting the cost. The entire BIS

:59:49. > :59:52.2020 plan looks like a perverse counter to the regional powerhouse

:59:53. > :59:55.agenda, slashed jobs, Nate no account of the importance of

:59:56. > :00:02.regional economies and centralise work in London. If you think the

:00:03. > :00:06.leaping to conclusions about the way Whitehall adopts a London centric

:00:07. > :00:10.approach at odds with the devolution of power, we can look at the details

:00:11. > :00:16.of eight seminar given by McKinsey to BIS employees last year, the same

:00:17. > :00:22.company which authored the report into this restructuring. An item on

:00:23. > :00:27.the agenda read, how can London ensure it outstrips rival cities?

:00:28. > :00:31.This is the same city with infrastructure spending more than

:00:32. > :00:35.any other UK city combine. BIS's mission statement says it will have

:00:36. > :00:40.the right people in the right place at the right time, and how on earth

:00:41. > :00:46.does this strategy achieved that? The minister may not appreciated but

:00:47. > :00:51.there is a reason by an idea few of their colleagues sign up to an cost

:00:52. > :00:56.the taxpayer money is not a good idea. I urge the minister to use

:00:57. > :01:02.this consultation to think again what message this sends, what damage

:01:03. > :01:06.it does and hold the decision which will reverse a decades long

:01:07. > :01:12.progressive trend of moving civil servants out of London. I would like

:01:13. > :01:15.to start congratulating the honourable member for Sheffield

:01:16. > :01:23.centre, not only by leading the charge but for his excellent oral

:01:24. > :01:31.sex Ben Evans -- ransacked analysis of why this is a bad decision. This

:01:32. > :01:37.has been reviewed as far back as the 1960s, and although it is not a new

:01:38. > :01:42.debate it would be wise to rehearse some of the grounds on which

:01:43. > :01:48.dispersal could be argued. I would like to rehearse three of those

:01:49. > :01:52.reasons. First, the cost of sale and relocating government departments,

:01:53. > :01:58.will be considerably more cost-effective than having them

:01:59. > :02:03.located in overheated London. I notice a number of the honourable

:02:04. > :02:09.members pointed to the fact they cannot yet release any TTL cost

:02:10. > :02:17.effect analysis that has been undertaken. Perhaps that would be

:02:18. > :02:23.unsurprising if there has not in a proper cost and effort analysis. The

:02:24. > :02:29.second is about them and the threats to the recipient regions of

:02:30. > :02:35.dispersal. If dispersal moves into areas with relatively weak local

:02:36. > :02:43.economies compared to London, the benefit of even a few well hundred

:02:44. > :02:48.well-paid jobs can be considerable. There are many towns in the north of

:02:49. > :02:52.England that would in effect greatly if there were more dispersal out of

:02:53. > :02:58.London, and my third point, although it is less talk about generally,

:02:59. > :03:02.although it had been raised today, is that the method in terms of

:03:03. > :03:08.government intelligence and the session making. It is very unhealthy

:03:09. > :03:13.for all key decision makers and advisers to be based in one

:03:14. > :03:19.location, particularly if it is out of character with the rest of the

:03:20. > :03:26.country. Dispersal provides an opportunity for that engagement. As

:03:27. > :03:31.I was hearing some of the debate when we presented the case at a

:03:32. > :03:36.Backbench Business Committee, I recall arguing that one of the

:03:37. > :03:42.problems was that this decision seems to reek of groupthink in terms

:03:43. > :03:47.of the Government. Or if I'd had it in a slightly more academic fashion,

:03:48. > :03:54.it reminded me of reading the work of Kenneth Hammond and his Tintin

:03:55. > :03:59.joined theory, when he argued that decision making can be on a

:04:00. > :04:04.continuum from one extreme, highly into would have, to the other

:04:05. > :04:09.extreme of highly analytical, and with a mix between. This decision

:04:10. > :04:14.strikes me as the reason a lot of evidence cannot be provided is

:04:15. > :04:22.because it reeks of intuition rather than detailed analysis of the true

:04:23. > :04:27.benefit. I also remember in the backbench is this committee being

:04:28. > :04:34.asked about why a Scottish MP would want to talk in this debate. Without

:04:35. > :04:37.wishing to be accused of arrogance, there might be one or two examples

:04:38. > :04:44.that could be brought from Scotland to show the benefit of dispersal.

:04:45. > :04:50.I'll give the honourable lady the following 15. I was going to make it

:04:51. > :04:56.three but because of your intervention I note you would like

:04:57. > :05:02.many more, so first of the many, in terms of the five major holdings

:05:03. > :05:05.that housed the policy civil servants in Scotland, two of them

:05:06. > :05:13.are based well beyond Edinburgh, and if I give an example close to the

:05:14. > :05:22.functions of BIS, housing lifelong learning well outside Edinburgh but

:05:23. > :05:26.in a lace located closer to the majority of higher education and

:05:27. > :05:33.further education institutions, has given great benefit, not least when

:05:34. > :05:38.I was talking to a principle of eight college in Scotland who had

:05:39. > :05:42.been a principal in England, who commented that it is so much easier

:05:43. > :05:48.in Scotland to get access to senior civil servants than he found when he

:05:49. > :05:54.was a principal south of the border, and since the minister kindly

:05:55. > :06:02.invited me to provide even more examples, let me talk of Scotland's

:06:03. > :06:07.34 executive non-departmental public bodies, just trips off the tongue,

:06:08. > :06:13.doesn't it? Some 19 of these are located out with the capital,

:06:14. > :06:18.Edinburgh, this includes headquarters in such centres as

:06:19. > :06:25.Inverness, Cranston and spake, Dundee, Stirling, Hamilton,

:06:26. > :06:32.Newbridge, Paisley, in addition to Edinburgh and Glasgow. Some of these

:06:33. > :06:36.play a significant role in supporting local economies, in

:06:37. > :06:41.addition to being cost-effective locations, but I can go even further

:06:42. > :06:48.to satisfy the minister and let me take it to those who might want to

:06:49. > :06:53.influence in terms of policy-making advice, the Cabinet, for example. In

:06:54. > :07:00.2008, my right honourable friend from Gordon in situ did they then

:07:01. > :07:05.fairly modest initiative to take Cabinet meetings during summer

:07:06. > :07:09.recess to one or two different locations away from Edinburgh. This

:07:10. > :07:17.has now developed over the years until, speaking in mid-2016, 42

:07:18. > :07:24.Cabinet meetings have been held out with Edinburgh. In the last year

:07:25. > :07:31.alone, Cabinet meetings have been held in Dumfries, Aberdeen,

:07:32. > :07:37.Inverness, who park, Coatbridge, Greenock and West Dunbartonshire,

:07:38. > :07:42.and when these take place it helps engagement because after the

:07:43. > :07:47.meetings, they hold a public meeting where the public can question

:07:48. > :07:52.Cabinet members. The benefit of this is that thousands of ordinary

:07:53. > :07:58.members of the public have been able to come and influence

:07:59. > :08:04.decision-making. Madam Deputy Speaker, I wear of the time, I would

:08:05. > :08:12.think what we should be debating there is not really so much why, for

:08:13. > :08:16.example, are that 247 jobs being moved from Sheffield to London, but

:08:17. > :08:23.rather why are there not tens of thousands more jobs being located

:08:24. > :08:35.out of London into the regions and nations of the UK?

:08:36. > :08:40.Did I begin by congratulating my right honourable friend the member

:08:41. > :08:43.from Sheffield for securing this debate and for his introductory

:08:44. > :08:47.comments, though I have to say I only had the second part of those,

:08:48. > :08:51.because I was chairing a select committee at the time. So apologies

:08:52. > :08:57.to your Madam Speaker and to my friend for my greatness of arriving

:08:58. > :09:03.at this debate. I just wanted to concentrate on the issue of

:09:04. > :09:08.devolution. The COD select committee produced a report on devolution on a

:09:09. > :09:12.cross-party basis, we welcome the government's commitment to it and

:09:13. > :09:17.general approach to it. We might have certain reservations on detail

:09:18. > :09:21.or the pace at which devolution is going, but nevertheless we recognise

:09:22. > :09:27.that it is a key aspect of government policy, and one which we

:09:28. > :09:31.welcome. We also said in the select committee that devolution is not

:09:32. > :09:34.just a matter for Kennedy and local government departments, it is a

:09:35. > :09:38.matter for all government departments and we want to see all

:09:39. > :09:43.government departments signed up to the policy and contributing to it.

:09:44. > :09:49.Indeed it is welcome that economic development and skills are an

:09:50. > :09:53.integral part of the devolution deals in cities like Manchester, and

:09:54. > :10:00.my own city of Sheffield, and that is to be welcomed as well. Key

:10:01. > :10:03.response abilities of this -- of the BIS department are part of the

:10:04. > :10:08.disposability of those deals. We then turned to the care of northern

:10:09. > :10:14.powerhouse to cover the totality of devolution proposals for our

:10:15. > :10:20.northern cities. That lead on of course to complete incredulity

:10:21. > :10:26.amongst my constituents and those of the wider Sheffield city region.

:10:27. > :10:31.When the government talks about the northern powerhouse over and over

:10:32. > :10:36.again and then takes a decision on moving civil servants jobs out of

:10:37. > :10:42.Sheffield, back to London, which seems completely contradictory to

:10:43. > :10:46.the own policy on devolution. People just do not get it. I raise this

:10:47. > :10:51.point in an intervention with the honourable member from Warrington

:10:52. > :10:55.South, and it was good to hear his contribution. It was an excellent

:10:56. > :11:00.one, well thought out, and one that she was dead visual cross-party

:11:01. > :11:03.concern across this house about the aspect of this government policy and

:11:04. > :11:06.where it is going to and how it does not really fit in with the overall

:11:07. > :11:12.government approach on devolution that we would want to see. He's

:11:13. > :11:16.absolutely right to say that were civil service jobs are blockaded is

:11:17. > :11:22.of course not the only reason for the northern powerhouse and the

:11:23. > :11:28.totality approach, indeed it is not the main reason. The main reason is

:11:29. > :11:31.to try and secure a growth in GDP per head in our northern cities to

:11:32. > :11:36.get their up towards the national average, so it is not -- because not

:11:37. > :11:40.one single northern city has a GDP per head equivalent to the national

:11:41. > :11:46.average, and that is a matter of concern. It is a matter of trying to

:11:47. > :11:50.ensure that decision-making is taken neither to those affected by it and

:11:51. > :11:54.that we recognise that different approaches and different policies

:11:55. > :11:57.will be formed in different areas as part of that process of trying to

:11:58. > :12:03.improve public service is in the delivery and get that increase in

:12:04. > :12:09.GDP that we want to see. It is an approach that is going to change the

:12:10. > :12:13.way that our country is governed if we carry through and onwards into

:12:14. > :12:21.the next two years. But what people see on the ground in terms of this

:12:22. > :12:24.policy we are discussing today, is the government is talking a grand

:12:25. > :12:30.design about northern powerhouse but talking one thing and doing another.

:12:31. > :12:33.And that, people said they do not understand, the general direction of

:12:34. > :12:36.government travel. They hear ministers talking about the northern

:12:37. > :12:41.powerhouse and then they see the reality of jobs being moved out of

:12:42. > :12:45.their home city and transferred them to London without what they could

:12:46. > :12:51.see as any good reason. And I would say to the Minister, if the minister

:12:52. > :12:57.is intent on pursuing a policy that seems at least at face value to be

:12:58. > :13:02.contradictory to the overall thrust of governments devolution policy

:13:03. > :13:07.then there has to be a very good explicit and clear reason why that

:13:08. > :13:13.policy is going to be carried through. The Minister has to be able

:13:14. > :13:18.to justify to this house as well as to my constituents, is that policy

:13:19. > :13:23.being followed through because of clear cost benefits which are

:13:24. > :13:28.demonstrable and provable and figures that can be laid before this

:13:29. > :13:34.house to show that, or is as the honourable member said a clear

:13:35. > :13:39.policy benefits that ministers can show and demonstrates that policy

:13:40. > :13:43.will be unequivocally taken better at ministers will be better advised

:13:44. > :13:49.because all of the civil servants are located in one place. And

:13:50. > :13:54.couldn't it just as well work with the two hubs as well as the one

:13:55. > :13:59.hope, if that is what ministers want to see, a concentration of

:14:00. > :14:02.policy-making. So ministers -- so if ministers can demonstrate either

:14:03. > :14:06.there is going to be at clear and explicit cost saving order must will

:14:07. > :14:10.benefit in terms of policy advice to ministers, why on earth are they

:14:11. > :14:12.pursuing a policy which seems completely contradictory to the

:14:13. > :14:21.overall thrust of government devolution policy? Why are they

:14:22. > :14:25.doing it? They have had a challenge. Produce the bacon is a report by the

:14:26. > :14:29.McKinsey papers or the McKinsey input into decision-making, whatever

:14:30. > :14:33.it is, or some cost benefit analysis that ministers must have at their

:14:34. > :14:37.disposal. They can't have taken this decision or be about to take this

:14:38. > :14:41.decision without any favours at all before them. Share them with this

:14:42. > :14:45.house or at least give a commitment that they will make all of the

:14:46. > :14:50.information available to the NA all to conduct an audit into this

:14:51. > :14:53.decision so the NA or at least then can advise memories of this house

:14:54. > :14:57.about whether the ministers have taken this decision will take this

:14:58. > :15:02.decision, hopefully is not yet made an clear and credible facts and

:15:03. > :15:10.figures about the financial benefits of proposals that they are putting

:15:11. > :15:14.forward. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. And I would like to thank

:15:15. > :15:17.the backbench business committee of course but also the MP for Sheffield

:15:18. > :15:22.Central, who has been doggedly pursuing this issue and to give us a

:15:23. > :15:27.very precise dissection of the numerous issues at the heart of this

:15:28. > :15:31.decision or proposal. Particularly the many unanswered questions still

:15:32. > :15:35.to be quest -- questions still to be answered. Any member from Warrington

:15:36. > :15:37.South, a colleague of mine on the Public Accounts Committee provided a

:15:38. > :15:42.very certain contribution challenging the hub and spoke

:15:43. > :15:47.concept that BIS is apparently set on as demonstrated by this peculiar

:15:48. > :15:50.decision. The member for Sheffield Hallam game is a very interesting

:15:51. > :15:54.insight as a former member of government into the inner workings

:15:55. > :15:59.of departments. The member for Torbay not in his place at the

:16:00. > :16:02.moment, another colleague made a thoughtful contribution in support

:16:03. > :16:07.for decentralisation using his own experience as an example. The member

:16:08. > :16:13.for Rother Valley raised the issue of the McKinsey report, or papers,

:16:14. > :16:16.whether it indeed exists or not, calling for the work that was the

:16:17. > :16:21.enemy to be released to allow for proper scrutiny, the member for

:16:22. > :16:25.Cardiff North made clear his support for the BIS and Public Accounts

:16:26. > :16:31.Committee is called for clarity and for this proposal to be looked at.

:16:32. > :16:36.And also raise the concerns of those who have benefited from the

:16:37. > :16:41.dispersal of jobs from London to his constituency. Certain Scottish

:16:42. > :16:46.members indeed await with interest clarification there is the Mr's

:16:47. > :16:51.comment regarding initial centres of excellence in Glasgow, for example.

:16:52. > :16:54.The member for Sheffield Healy gave a very thoughtful contribution

:16:55. > :17:01.highlighting the many benefits that were being placed at risk by this

:17:02. > :17:05.decision, cost and perspective being a potent elements are needed to be

:17:06. > :17:08.looked at. My honourable friend thought Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath

:17:09. > :17:12.made an excellent contribution with a particular focus on how unhealthy

:17:13. > :17:17.locating key decision-makers in a place so very different to all other

:17:18. > :17:23.areas of the UK is. And giving of course numerous examples of areas

:17:24. > :17:28.outside our capital city in Scotland that have benefited from government

:17:29. > :17:31.dispersal policies. The member for Sheffield South East of course

:17:32. > :17:37.called for all government departments to sign up to the

:17:38. > :17:41.concept of devolution. Officers and staff Madam Deputy Speaker should be

:17:42. > :17:46.moved out of this overheated, overvalued and frankly ridiculous

:17:47. > :17:49.overpriced city to take up residence in less expensive areas which

:17:50. > :17:56.frankly could do with the government investing in them for a change. As

:17:57. > :18:01.budgets are being slashed by a Chancellor, I've is Chancellor who

:18:02. > :18:03.seems to be channelling Sweeny Todd sometimes why is the cost of

:18:04. > :18:09.concentrating offices and staff not becoming the main issue? In fact as

:18:10. > :18:12.a number of members commented the Chancellor's most recent budget at

:18:13. > :18:16.least I think there was the most recent one, there seems to be a new

:18:17. > :18:20.one every few weeks, should the Chancellor himself admitting offices

:18:21. > :18:23.out of London would be a good idea. Unfortunately some of his colleagues

:18:24. > :18:27.and senior civil servants don't share his vision and the shrinkage

:18:28. > :18:30.of government continues. It is becoming smaller geographically with

:18:31. > :18:36.a smaller workforce, but it would save money. I was pleased to take

:18:37. > :18:40.part in the Westminster Hall debate on this issue recently and to be

:18:41. > :18:44.honest with you the upshot is that I and many others seem to get from

:18:45. > :18:49.that debate was that ministers wanted the civil servants close to

:18:50. > :18:56.them. Apparently a bit of distance by Lucy civil servants message. My

:18:57. > :19:00.staff are around 400 miles away from here, I have already and identifies

:19:01. > :19:05.the day, I am going to call the massive as I get out of you as well

:19:06. > :19:08.just because I can. We use telephones. I think ministers might

:19:09. > :19:13.have heard of them. It is really quite amazing how I can talk to

:19:14. > :19:19.someone who is not nearby. And with a bit of practice I think ministers

:19:20. > :19:22.could learn to use the telephone. If that doesn't sit there is another

:19:23. > :19:27.thing that my friend and I use called the Internet. That too would

:19:28. > :19:32.let ministers communicate with civil servants in distant lands like

:19:33. > :19:36.Sheffield. Far better that really than the ridiculous situation of

:19:37. > :19:42.moving the offices of the northern powerhouse into the southern

:19:43. > :19:46.hothouse. Quite how anyone expects civil servants to do their jobs when

:19:47. > :19:51.they are being held at city distance from subject they specialise in is

:19:52. > :19:55.anyone's guess. It smacks frankly of the days when the UK Government

:19:56. > :20:00.thought it could pontificate from a Whitehall office and tell large

:20:01. > :20:02.chunks of the world how to behave. The British Empire attitude saw

:20:03. > :20:05.nothing wrong with the white minister telling people on the other

:20:06. > :20:10.side of the world what to do, surely we have moved on from that. For the

:20:11. > :20:14.sake of us all for the sake of good government, let's get officers and

:20:15. > :20:17.staff moved out of London, let's spread them around the UK and if

:20:18. > :20:23.they have a geographical beam it, let's have them based in the areas

:20:24. > :20:30.they are supposed be helping. Surely that is nothing more or less than

:20:31. > :20:37.common sense. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. And can I join members in

:20:38. > :20:41.paying tribute to the honourable member, my honourable friend from

:20:42. > :20:45.Sheffield Central and the other members have secured this very

:20:46. > :20:49.important debate. We have had a good debate and I am pleased to see the

:20:50. > :20:56.Secretary of State and the Minister of State in the places to listen to

:20:57. > :21:01.the advice they have been given by members from all parties about what

:21:02. > :21:06.needs to be done. I sincerely hope they take on board the comments that

:21:07. > :21:11.have been made, listen to them closely and go away after this

:21:12. > :21:18.debate and act upon them because what was announced on the 28th of

:21:19. > :21:24.January was the closure of the BIS office in Sheffield, with the loss

:21:25. > :21:27.of 247 jobs and at the time the Secretary of State, I will remind

:21:28. > :21:32.him what he said, he said the closure was to save money. And the

:21:33. > :21:35.Minister of State told the house the following day in response to the

:21:36. > :21:40.urgent question, that we take the view that this is the best way to

:21:41. > :21:49.spend public money more efficiently and more effectively. And yet

:21:50. > :21:54.members on all sides have challenged what both ministers said at the time

:21:55. > :22:00.because of a lack of evidence and because of a lack of any kind of

:22:01. > :22:05.business case. We have heard today some of the evidence about the

:22:06. > :22:10.costs, including that staff in Sheffield are employed at the cost

:22:11. > :22:20.of ?3190 each, whilst that Victoria Street in London the figure is more

:22:21. > :22:28.than three times as high. 9750. Plus London weighting. Which takes it

:22:29. > :22:33.well over ?12,000. Hardly a case you would say of saving money. So what

:22:34. > :22:39.is the reason for closing the Sheffield BIS office? A number of

:22:40. > :22:43.suggestions have been made. Is it so ministers can have what a cooler

:22:44. > :22:49.conversations with staff in Whitehall? Or is it a part of a

:22:50. > :22:53.desperate scramble for cash to plug the Chancellor's black hole, just as

:22:54. > :23:00.the proposal for the privatisation of the land Registry appears to be.

:23:01. > :23:04.Or is it because the government knows that many staff will leave and

:23:05. > :23:10.costs will be reduced as a result. Whatever the reason, the Minister

:23:11. > :23:13.and the Secretary of State really should tell us. And they should tell

:23:14. > :23:18.us what the strategy is, how the plan will work, because so far it's

:23:19. > :23:26.just does not look like what BIS has come up with a top in any way, shape

:23:27. > :23:31.or form. We heard that in the budgets and also in the Bridge

:23:32. > :23:39.report and also in the estate strategy, there is a cross

:23:40. > :23:41.government move to recruit high-calibre staff outside London,

:23:42. > :23:48.to move departments out of London, to continue a trend that as we heard

:23:49. > :23:52.has been going on since the 1960s. Because other government departments

:23:53. > :23:56.recognise the benefits of diversifying civil service so why is

:23:57. > :24:02.BIS moving in the opposite direction?

:24:03. > :24:09.Staff have been told ministers need to have a advisers closer to them

:24:10. > :24:13.but why to other departments take the opposite view and wife when

:24:14. > :24:22.staff were later told that the move was due to computers and phones not

:24:23. > :24:28.working properly? And we have one of the poorest quality is abroad and of

:24:29. > :24:32.any major economy but even so, we might be forgiven for thinking IT

:24:33. > :24:37.systems could be fixed even by this Government. The Department for

:24:38. > :24:44.Education, to give an example from elsewhere, they say on the subject

:24:45. > :24:46.of the benefits of a regional approach, we benefit from

:24:47. > :24:52.maintaining sites around the country, we get alternative

:24:53. > :24:56.perspectives on policy issues, we can draw from a wider recruitment

:24:57. > :25:04.pool and employment people outside London helps to keep costs down. It

:25:05. > :25:07.says it all. And that many experienced staff who do not wish to

:25:08. > :25:16.relocate to London will leave a gap at a time when BIS faces serious

:25:17. > :25:19.challenges wherever we look. The steel crisis and the need for

:25:20. > :25:25.significant support for manufacturing. Just last week the

:25:26. > :25:37.delay announced by the minister on the introduction on the setting up

:25:38. > :25:42.of the office of the small-business commission, important and demanding

:25:43. > :25:48.policy rules which will need the expertise of civil servants and in

:25:49. > :25:52.Sheffield the need to support universities and plans for a mass

:25:53. > :25:56.expansion of apprenticeships, that need for experienced that giving

:25:57. > :26:02.quality advice to ministers could not be more important yet BIS is

:26:03. > :26:09.taking a big gamble with its ability to do its job as many of those

:26:10. > :26:16.experienced staff will leave. A point made in the House of Lords by

:26:17. > :26:22.the BIS Minister. I bet like to pay tribute to honourable members who

:26:23. > :26:26.spoke today. My honourable friend for Sheffield Central, who spoke

:26:27. > :26:30.with great expertise and experience from talking to staff about his own

:26:31. > :26:40.constituents and the benefits of regional offices. The honourable

:26:41. > :26:43.member for Cardiff Central, who made some excellent comments about the

:26:44. > :26:50.importance of the work that goes on in his killer constituency,

:26:51. > :26:55.including the insolvency service, and he supported the requests for

:26:56. > :27:01.proper evidence being viewed to support and understand the proposals

:27:02. > :27:07.by BIS. My honourable friend from rather Varley, who sits at the

:27:08. > :27:14.Westminster debate and made a point that that current location of BIS is

:27:15. > :27:21.crucial to his concert -- constituents and other members in

:27:22. > :27:28.this House, and the relocation expenses that he mentioned, he might

:27:29. > :27:32.also have added the lack of extended travel as a reason why these

:27:33. > :27:36.experienced staff were not the able to do anything other than take

:27:37. > :27:40.redundancy. My honourable friend from Sheffield Healy talked about

:27:41. > :27:45.the thumbs down to the excellent staff in BIS that has been apparent

:27:46. > :27:50.from the leadership of the Department, and that was in stark

:27:51. > :27:55.contrast to the excellence of the many staff who work in BIS. My

:27:56. > :28:01.honourable friend from Sheffield South East questioned the committee

:28:02. > :28:05.went off government to its own devolution agenda by moving the

:28:06. > :28:14.Centre for the Northern powerhouse to London. And away from the North

:28:15. > :28:18.itself. We have had some excellent contributions from across the House,

:28:19. > :28:25.we had comments from the honourable members for Kirkcaldy and

:28:26. > :28:29.Cowdenbeath, Edinburgh North and Leith, and from the honourable

:28:30. > :28:31.member for Warrington South, who made that point about the

:28:32. > :28:37.contradiction with the Northern powerhouse of this move as well as

:28:38. > :28:45.the contradictions with that BIS 2020 document that states that

:28:46. > :28:50.strategy. So much has been made by ministers of the so-called Northern

:28:51. > :28:55.powerhouse. Having a network of government offices and key staff in

:28:56. > :28:58.the regions is a vital part of understanding the needs of the whole

:28:59. > :29:04.country and avoiding the sense that all glossy is solely about the

:29:05. > :29:10.Westminster bubble. So it is falling that BIS, of all departments, might

:29:11. > :29:17.even consider withdrawing from the regions. Given the importance that

:29:18. > :29:22.the Government says it ascribes to the Northern powerhouse, BIS should

:29:23. > :29:28.be the eyes and ears of government out and about, building key local

:29:29. > :29:32.elation ships with business, universities and colleges, local

:29:33. > :29:38.government and with trade unions, and quite is a trade unions are

:29:39. > :29:44.saying they haven't been allowed to have discussions with management

:29:45. > :29:48.about these proposals? Of course there is the message received by the

:29:49. > :29:52.private sector and by local communities that government is not

:29:53. > :30:01.serious about support for the North. I am afraid that actions speak

:30:02. > :30:07.louder than words and that term the Northern powerhouse is becoming more

:30:08. > :30:13.and more just a set of words, and meaningless ones at that. It struck

:30:14. > :30:19.me that the way the Government was going about its reorganisation was

:30:20. > :30:22.not exactly businesslike. For a start, a forward-looking business

:30:23. > :30:28.would use technology to communicate, video conferencing is available at

:30:29. > :30:34.the touch of a button and is a cost-effective way of working. It

:30:35. > :30:38.saves travel costs and time. I don't know that the Secretary of State has

:30:39. > :30:42.ever used video conferencing. Maybe when he was in Australia he could

:30:43. > :30:50.have used it to speak to people in man by the time of the Tata steel to

:30:51. > :30:54.that he was involved in at the time of the AGM he should have been

:30:55. > :30:58.trying to attempt to look after our steel industry. If he is going to

:30:59. > :31:04.turn around while I'm talking to him, maybe he expects these

:31:05. > :31:11.comments. Uses of technology allows staff to work the back I appreciate

:31:12. > :31:18.the bin after correcting me, the board meeting in Mumbai. It allows

:31:19. > :31:24.staff to work closer to home and be more, it is common practice for

:31:25. > :31:28.international buses to have a strong regional presence and the use

:31:29. > :31:33.technology where possible, and shouldn't the Government be at the

:31:34. > :31:38.forefront of using technology? In any restructuring, wouldn't business

:31:39. > :31:42.produce a sound business plan? Such a plan would evaluate the costs of

:31:43. > :31:49.arrangements set against your curtains, and yet we have not been

:31:50. > :31:51.given a business case by the Secretary of State for by the

:31:52. > :31:56.Permanent Secretary. The two select committees did not get a business

:31:57. > :31:59.case either and even the recall of the Permanent Secretary only

:32:00. > :32:05.confirmed the initial suspicion there was no case for the defence as

:32:06. > :32:10.he admitted he had not sought to put a price on the changes, so those

:32:11. > :32:16.questions remain about five is is proposing to close in Sheffield. --

:32:17. > :32:24.white BIS is proposing. One clue is to be found in the Department of

:32:25. > :32:30.plan, which discloses that expenses are expected to be achieved from the

:32:31. > :32:36.sale of mini site BIS is planning to close around the country. These

:32:37. > :32:42.sales suggest savings for short-term deal and then the case of the

:32:43. > :32:45.Sheffield office, it means higher annual costs in Whitehall and

:32:46. > :32:53.reduced expertise in supporting business. The businesses who rely on

:32:54. > :32:56.BIS and the universities who rely on that in Sheffield do not operate

:32:57. > :33:03.without proper business plans and neither should the Government or

:33:04. > :33:06.departments. There will be concerned that the Government does not follow

:33:07. > :33:12.best practice in the way it operates. The sad reality is that

:33:13. > :33:18.BIS ministers and senior management are developing a reputation, but not

:33:19. > :33:22.the one they should, not a reputation of competence but rather

:33:23. > :33:28.for being a complete shambles and that can not be good news for

:33:29. > :33:35.Sheffield or for the country. We've been told the decision has been

:33:36. > :33:40.suspended for two weeks. So in those two weeks, when the minister

:33:41. > :33:45.responds, will she tell us that she was now go away, find the

:33:46. > :33:51.justification for these decisions, find the business case and make sure

:33:52. > :34:00.it is in the public domain so it can undergo proper scrutiny? In

:34:01. > :34:03.concluding -- including the select committees and consultation with

:34:04. > :34:09.trade unions, so decisions can be taken on the basis of full evidence.

:34:10. > :34:17.We need to know, is at a cost saving or is it an improvement in policy?

:34:18. > :34:22.48 combination? Because if it isn't, the evidence will show, and the

:34:23. > :34:26.minister needs to put in the public domain that evidence to show either

:34:27. > :34:31.way, so full decisions be taken and public scrutiny of those can show

:34:32. > :34:41.whether the Government is right or not. Minister. Can I begin by

:34:42. > :34:46.congratulating the honourable gentleman, the member for Sheffield

:34:47. > :34:51.Central, on securing this debate and I think it has been a good debate. A

:34:52. > :34:55.number of members from both sides have raised very good points and

:34:56. > :35:00.because I know the clock will be against me, the last time I said

:35:01. > :35:06.that the pulse do think that was be my choice, it isn't at all those

:35:07. > :35:10.honourable members were asked questions which I haven't given

:35:11. > :35:15.answers to, I will write to them and that may include the honorable

:35:16. > :35:20.member for Sheffield Central in this respect, his questions were quite

:35:21. > :35:23.long and I cannot answer all of those questions in this debate. I

:35:24. > :35:27.will deal with the points he makes but I cannot answer them all and the

:35:28. > :35:34.time allowed at the length you would like to. Can I then save this, I

:35:35. > :35:41.think it is important that we put at the focus of this debate the 247

:35:42. > :35:43.people who work in the Sheffield office and make the point that we

:35:44. > :35:51.put forward this proposal, a decision has not been made. It has

:35:52. > :35:54.been out for consultation, I hope a number of honourable members will

:35:55. > :35:59.have taken part in that and a final decision will not be made until May

:36:00. > :36:03.the 23rd, and everybody in this House will know but governments of

:36:04. > :36:07.whatever colour have to make difficult decisions but we have to

:36:08. > :36:14.be sure we make the right decisions for the right reasons. Can also make

:36:15. > :36:20.this important point? Whatever the decision in relation to Sheffield,

:36:21. > :36:26.83% of the people who work for BIS will continue to work outside

:36:27. > :36:32.London. I think that is very important. To some extent I take a

:36:33. > :36:38.bit of exception to the suggestion that we and BIS are not in touch

:36:39. > :36:43.with what is going on in the rest of the country outside London. We have,

:36:44. > :36:48.under Secretary of State and myself, to members of Parliament who do not

:36:49. > :36:56.represent London, who returned to our constituencies, but we still

:36:57. > :37:01.have an important -- and exceptional team of BIS civil servants who work

:37:02. > :37:07.in the whole of the country, who feed in doing monthly meetings and

:37:08. > :37:10.give me a round-up of everything that has happened across the

:37:11. > :37:16.country. We have the green investment into in Edinburgh, we

:37:17. > :37:21.have UK TI, which exists through the whole of the country and as today I

:37:22. > :37:26.have been on a visit to Leicestershire, opening a marvellous

:37:27. > :37:32.extension of a new business but I've met with the Leicester Asian and

:37:33. > :37:38.this association and the Local Enterprise Partnership, and when I

:37:39. > :37:41.come to Sheffield I will say to the honourable gentleman who represent

:37:42. > :37:46.Sheffield South East, it will be a pleasure to have him at my visit to

:37:47. > :37:50.steel mills and I will meet with the Local Enterprise Partnership because

:37:51. > :37:56.that feedback is essential, and now can I turn to the reasons behind the

:37:57. > :38:00.proposal? It is important that we set this in the right context

:38:01. > :38:04.against the right background. It is a mixture of the financial edition

:38:05. > :38:11.we are in and the decisions we have rightly made to make sure we have a

:38:12. > :38:16.budget we can cope with and we play our part in reducing the overall

:38:17. > :38:21.spend on BIS plays its part in that, but it is not just about cutting

:38:22. > :38:27.money but also about making sure this department works as efficiently

:38:28. > :38:32.and effectively as it can, and the situation which the Secretary of

:38:33. > :38:36.State and I inherited was a historic problem of an abundance of sites and

:38:37. > :38:42.so it is this one was taken against that financial backdrop, and let me

:38:43. > :38:47.answer the question for the honourable gentleman for Sheffield

:38:48. > :38:52.Hallam... Sorry? It is not as simple as that think costs, and the

:38:53. > :38:56.honourable gentleman with his great experience in and out of government

:38:57. > :39:01.should know this, it's a mixture of making sure we have an efficient and

:39:02. > :39:08.effective way of working within BIS, set against the financial restraints

:39:09. > :39:11.that we have put upon our department as part of that overall deficit

:39:12. > :39:28.requirement. Our current applications are spread

:39:29. > :39:32.all the cognitive map and we are committed to reducing our headcount

:39:33. > :39:37.by 2020. This will involve becoming more flexible and redeploying fewer

:39:38. > :39:40.staff quickly to new priorities. We need simpler structures that allow

:39:41. > :39:45.staff to interact through quicker, less cumbersome means and stay close

:39:46. > :39:48.to each other in flexible teams. We rightly put a strong emphasis on

:39:49. > :39:52.staff engagement, excellent management, visible leadership and

:39:53. > :39:59.developing and coaching staff. These are harder to achieve if teams are

:40:00. > :40:04.not collected together and are working under the same route. -- and

:40:05. > :40:08.are not working under the same. We believe that the site BIS

:40:09. > :40:12.headquarters is the best way to serve our effectiveness and given

:40:13. > :40:16.the way our team serves misters in Parliament we believe that this must

:40:17. > :40:18.be in London but as I say Madam Deputy Speaker I want to make this

:40:19. > :40:23.absolutely clear, we will continue to provide to those 247 members of

:40:24. > :40:30.staff who have had this hanging over them, I'm very cognisant of that

:40:31. > :40:34.fact, since January 28 that whatever the decision they have good handfuls

:40:35. > :40:37.of bought and if the decision is made to close the Sheffield office

:40:38. > :40:42.that will continue because the Department takes its duty of care to

:40:43. > :40:47.each and every one of our staff extremely seriously. As I hope you

:40:48. > :40:51.would imagine. I say that's tough decisions have to be made, but if I

:40:52. > :40:54.would say to the honourable gentleman who had presented

:40:55. > :40:58.Kirkcaldy and Cowdenbeath, he and his colleagues on those benches will

:40:59. > :41:02.understand, like government of all colours, that the times set against

:41:03. > :41:06.the difficult financial background when you must take tough decisions.

:41:07. > :41:15.I'm told and I make no criticism of the SNP's decision to close back in

:41:16. > :41:18.2013 pension of court apparently. Seven Justice of the Peace courts.

:41:19. > :41:23.With operations transferred to other locations. These are the tough

:41:24. > :41:27.difficult decisions that have to be made and the SNP closures were

:41:28. > :41:33.justified as cost saving measures as part of a wider... But to be fair,

:41:34. > :41:39.they were also part apparently of a wider reform of the justice system,

:41:40. > :41:42.so we can all take away from that that the SNP were not just cutting

:41:43. > :41:47.things for the sake of savings, you were doing it as part of a broader

:41:48. > :41:50.strategy. Unfortunately to the honourable gentleman the clock is

:41:51. > :41:55.against me and he is -- and he has only just walked into the debate so

:41:56. > :41:58.I and even less deposed to take his intervention, but these are the

:41:59. > :42:03.hardest, difficult decisions that government have to do if they are to

:42:04. > :42:08.fulfil their duties. Not only making sure that we live within our means,

:42:09. > :42:15.but also to ensure that we act efficiently and effectively. I want

:42:16. > :42:18.to deal if I may with the questions that the honourable gentleman who

:42:19. > :42:23.represents Sheffield Central has asked of me and I am grateful for

:42:24. > :42:28.the e-mail with the attachment that he sent into my department. Some of

:42:29. > :42:34.that has already been dealt with by the permanent secretary in his

:42:35. > :42:38.evidence to the various committees. I am just going to take the sharp

:42:39. > :42:41.end if I may of the honourable gentleman's questions. What

:42:42. > :42:45.assessment of costs have been made to replace jobs in London? If all

:42:46. > :42:48.assessment has not yet been made but that he will now have the evidence

:42:49. > :42:55.given by the permanent secretary, it was thought to be in the total

:42:56. > :43:03.overtime some ?40 million. As I say it is not simply just about cost. He

:43:04. > :43:07.also asks the assessment of costs to replace Sheffield jobs in London. A

:43:08. > :43:12.final decision as I say has not been taken, and until we have and we know

:43:13. > :43:16.of the ramifications of it at this stage it is not possible to get

:43:17. > :43:18.that. The honourable gentleman and other honourable members have asked

:43:19. > :43:24.about the northern powerhouse and I will say this, I don't need to be

:43:25. > :43:27.told what a great and wonderful city Sheffield is. Mad David is because

:43:28. > :43:33.you don't need to know about my connections with Sheffield, my

:43:34. > :43:38.family comes from the and because I am from Nottinghamshire spend a

:43:39. > :43:45.great deal of my youth there. It is now and it will not be an

:43:46. > :43:48.outstanding city. We have been Sheffield right at the heart of

:43:49. > :43:54.South Yorkshire in that devolution deal, and we have delivered millions

:43:55. > :44:00.of pounds to Sheffield, as part of the Sheffield city regional deal.

:44:01. > :44:04.What part of the Sheffield city deals are they not understand?

:44:05. > :44:08.Sheffield is at the heart of that deal and a new way forward. With all

:44:09. > :44:12.of the attended money and power that comes from it and it is to be

:44:13. > :44:15.welcomed and I am surprised at honourable members opposite not

:44:16. > :44:21.talking up this excellent steel and not talking up the outstanding city