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:00:00. > 3:59:59of the challenges that are related to the freedom of the press with

:00:00. > :00:35.her. The UK last provided cluster

:00:36. > :00:41.munitions to Saudi Arabia nearly 30 years ago. The final delivery was in

:00:42. > :00:48.1989. We ratified the Convention on cluster munitions on the 4th of May

:00:49. > :00:53.2010 and we no longer supply, maintain nor support this weapon. We

:00:54. > :01:00.have not done so since we signed the convention in 2008. Based on all of

:01:01. > :01:05.the information available to us including sensitive coalition

:01:06. > :01:10.operational reporting we assess that no UK supplied cluster weapons have

:01:11. > :01:14.been used or UK supplied aircraft have been involved in the use of UK

:01:15. > :01:21.cluster weapons in the conflict in Yemen. We are aware of reports of

:01:22. > :01:25.the alleged use of cluster munitions by the coalition in Yemen. We have

:01:26. > :01:29.raised the issue of their use during the current conflicts in Yemen

:01:30. > :01:33.several times with the Saudi Arabian authorities and in line with our

:01:34. > :01:37.obligations under the Convention on cluster munitions, continue to

:01:38. > :01:43.encourage Saudi Arabia is a nonparty to the convention to exceed to it.

:01:44. > :01:47.The Saudis have previously denied using UK cluster munitions during

:01:48. > :01:55.the conflict in Yemen but we are seeking fresh assurances in light of

:01:56. > :01:59.this serious allegation. Yesterday amnesty International sent a letter

:02:00. > :02:03.to the Prime Minister calling for an urgent investigation into the

:02:04. > :02:10.scandal of UK supplied cluster bombs being used in villages in northern

:02:11. > :02:17.Yemen. During recent research in villages, never Yemen/ Saudi border,

:02:18. > :02:25.they found UK manufactured cluster bombs. They have been used by the

:02:26. > :02:30.Saudi Arabian led coalition forces. Whilst I know the Minister's

:02:31. > :02:35.remarks, the discovery of the cluster bomb manifested in the UK in

:02:36. > :02:40.the 70s is clear evidence that as long suspected members of the Saudi

:02:41. > :02:45.Arabian led military commission accused British cluster munitions in

:02:46. > :02:50.their highly controversial attacks in the Yemen. In February the

:02:51. > :02:54.European Parliament voted for an EU wide ban on sales of arms to Saudi

:02:55. > :02:59.Arabia citing the disastrous humanitarian situation as a result

:03:00. > :03:05.of the Saudi led military intervention in Yemen. In the 2008

:03:06. > :03:11.code of conduct, they promised not to sell weapons to countries with --

:03:12. > :03:14.that might be using violations of international humanitarian law and

:03:15. > :03:21.undermine regional stability and peace. With this in mind for the UK

:03:22. > :03:26.Government now suspend arms sales to Saudi Arabia and properly

:03:27. > :03:28.investigate the issues raised by Amnesty International? Will the

:03:29. > :03:35.Secretary of State confirm that the Government will keep its commitment

:03:36. > :03:38.to the EU not to export in these tragic circumstances? Finally, what

:03:39. > :03:42.the Secretary of State apologised to the House that this Government's

:03:43. > :03:46.continued inaction in this vital matter which has resulted in the

:03:47. > :03:56.deaths of Yemeni men, women and children as a continued use of

:03:57. > :04:01.British bombs. --? The Government recognises that the seriousness of

:04:02. > :04:04.this allegation and has therefore requested reconfirmation from the

:04:05. > :04:09.Saudi authorities of any evidence that there is to suggest you came

:04:10. > :04:16.munitions have been involved in the way alleged. We don't have any

:04:17. > :04:19.evidence of this at present and we have not supplied any such munitions

:04:20. > :04:24.for a very long time. There have been several conflicts in the border

:04:25. > :04:31.area between Saudi Arabia and northern Yemen in the last decade so

:04:32. > :04:37.it is not clear to us that this munition has come from the current

:04:38. > :04:41.conflicts. In relation to other issues the honourable lady

:04:42. > :04:49.mentioned, we are clear that the role of the United Kingdom advises

:04:50. > :04:54.to the kingdom of Saudi Arabia's Armed Forces are not operational in

:04:55. > :04:57.this conflict. We welcome the ceasefire and the negotiations that

:04:58. > :05:03.are underway and have been in place for the last six weeks or so and we

:05:04. > :05:13.wish that to be successful so that hostilities continue to result in no

:05:14. > :05:18.further conflict in Yemen. As the Government's special envoy to Yemen,

:05:19. > :05:22.I have been there many times and more recently to Saudi Arabia where

:05:23. > :05:28.the Government of Yemen is based. I have been to the operational

:05:29. > :05:34.targeting headquarters of the Saudi led coalition and have seen for

:05:35. > :05:38.myself what I believe to be a very high professional standard being set

:05:39. > :05:44.by that operation. Notwithstanding the honourable lady's Passion on

:05:45. > :05:54.this driven much more by NGO briefing vanities by any experience

:05:55. > :05:59.in this, would it not be... It is not insulting at all to suggest that

:06:00. > :06:09.experience about the country does matter. Would it not be wise for the

:06:10. > :06:16.House to appreciate that the current cessation of hostilities and the

:06:17. > :06:20.peace talks in Kuwait are at an absolutely critical phase and the

:06:21. > :06:28.future of the country entirely depends on these talks. Therefore it

:06:29. > :06:32.would be wise also not to inflame any kind of opinion that could

:06:33. > :06:42.jeopardise these talks and empower those who would rather see them fail

:06:43. > :06:44.and succeed? I am very grateful to my right honourable friend who does

:06:45. > :06:51.speak with considerable experience on matters of Yemen as the Prime

:06:52. > :06:58.Minister's envoy to the country. He visits its neighbours more than any

:06:59. > :07:03.member of this house. I would remind those opposite who are rightly

:07:04. > :07:08.concerned about the impact of certain munitions in this conflict

:07:09. > :07:14.that it wasn't for the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia adopting the coalition

:07:15. > :07:19.following UN resolution 2216, it will be likely that the entire

:07:20. > :07:28.Yemeni country would be overrun and in a state of continuing chaos. We

:07:29. > :07:32.have all read the reports of Yemen in recent days of cluster bombs and

:07:33. > :07:36.such volumes in civilian areas that they are hanging off the trees of

:07:37. > :07:43.young children picking up the bombs thinking they are toys with familiar

:07:44. > :07:46.results. They will be rightly concerned about the lack of answers

:07:47. > :07:50.we have heard from the Minster. We need to know whether this Saudi

:07:51. > :07:54.military abused British planes to drop cluster bombs. What is the

:07:55. > :08:00.extent of British involvement in this conflict and what is it

:08:01. > :08:03.designed to achieve? A State Department official has said that

:08:04. > :08:07.the United States has reminded Saudi Arabia of its obligations regarding

:08:08. > :08:11.the use of cluster bombs has an -- and has encouraged them to avoid

:08:12. > :08:14.civilian casualties. Can the Minister confirm whether the

:08:15. > :08:20.Government has ways those concerns with his Saudi counterparts and what

:08:21. > :08:26.response has he received? Even as the evidence mounts we have heard

:08:27. > :08:30.the absurd spectacle of the Saudi spokesman in the face of all the

:08:31. > :08:35.evidence insisting that the coalition is not using cluster

:08:36. > :08:40.bombs. Finally, can the Minister and so this. Does he believe the bloody

:08:41. > :08:47.doors -- the Brigadier general and what is he going to do about it and

:08:48. > :08:51.when is he going to do it? As I have said we regard the reports as

:08:52. > :08:58.Sirius. We are seeking to investigate through our discussions

:08:59. > :09:02.with the Saudis any evidence to substantiate the evidence made. I

:09:03. > :09:06.can categorically reassure her in this house that no British planes

:09:07. > :09:11.had been involved in this coalition effort at all, let alone in dropping

:09:12. > :09:15.cluster munitions as the potential allegation. There is no British

:09:16. > :09:21.involvement in the coalition in terms of targeting or in weapon

:09:22. > :09:27.icing aircraft to undertake missions. In relation to the

:09:28. > :09:31.Government's response, my honourable friend, the Minister for the Middle

:09:32. > :09:37.East, was in Doha yesterday and met the United Nations envoy for Yemen

:09:38. > :09:43.and has pressed upon him the need to continue with these as he was

:09:44. > :09:44.indicating then the debt -- the delicate integration is going on in

:09:45. > :09:53.Yemen. As the secretary of a tandem

:09:54. > :10:01.ministers are aware, the committee on arms export control is holding an

:10:02. > :10:08.inquiry into the conflict in Yemen. Will he can lead to some knitting

:10:09. > :10:13.any further evidence, not least in terms of cluster bombs, not least in

:10:14. > :10:19.terms of from Saudi Arabia to the committee as soon as it becomes

:10:20. > :10:23.available? I joined other ministers in appearing before the honourable

:10:24. > :10:30.gentleman's committee recently, which was a novel experience, and I

:10:31. > :10:34.hope a satisfactory one. I would happily undertake that should we

:10:35. > :10:38.receive any further evidence as a result of our current enquiries into

:10:39. > :10:43.use of cluster munitions, that we provide that evidence to the

:10:44. > :10:49.committee. There is a government has truly got its head stuck in the

:10:50. > :10:52.sand. Yemen is facing one of the worst humanitarian crisis in the

:10:53. > :10:57.world, yet through its continuing sales of arms to Saudi Arabia, the

:10:58. > :11:04.UK Government is exacerbating the plight of the Yemeni people. The

:11:05. > :11:08.SNP's Queen's Speech called for a regulation of a trading bill, which

:11:09. > :11:13.would seek to regulate the arms treaty. That is the right and

:11:14. > :11:18.transparent approach to such deals the UK Government must follow.

:11:19. > :11:23.Doesn't he agree it is a disgrace that the UK Government has licensed

:11:24. > :11:27.?6.7 billion of arms to Saudi Arabia since this Prime Minister took

:11:28. > :11:36.office in 2010? Including 2.8 billion since the bombing of Yemen

:11:37. > :11:40.began in 2010. Is it worth so much more than the thousands of men and

:11:41. > :11:44.women who die in this conflict crush mark this government has questions

:11:45. > :11:54.to answer, with evidence mounting it has reached human law. Will the

:11:55. > :12:00.inquiry get underway? I will asked a lady do consider her last remarks,

:12:01. > :12:02.there is no suggestion the UK is involved in breaches of the

:12:03. > :12:14.humanitarian law in this conflict, non-whatsoever. The human --

:12:15. > :12:20.humanitarian aid is second ranking from countries around the world, we

:12:21. > :12:24.have a proud record of supporting the humanitarian cause of people

:12:25. > :12:30.disturbed by this crisis. As she will be aware, some one fifth of

:12:31. > :12:38.people in need around the world through conflict are in Yemen, and

:12:39. > :12:42.we are committed to supporting peaceful resolution of this

:12:43. > :12:45.conflict. In relation to arms exports to the kingdom of Saudi

:12:46. > :12:50.Arabia, the exports that have been undertaken in recent years are

:12:51. > :12:58.primarily in providing capability to cope with incursion by foreign

:12:59. > :13:05.powers. They are supporting the kingdom of savage Arabia's

:13:06. > :13:09.contributed the Daesh, where they are playing a vital role. The

:13:10. > :13:14.honourable lady has to look at the challenges in the round in that

:13:15. > :13:20.region and the role Saudi Arabia is playing in providing continued

:13:21. > :13:27.security to the region. I'm sure the Minister would agree that in the

:13:28. > :13:31.Arabian area, we have to be careful of what we wish for because some

:13:32. > :13:36.conservative approaches could replace them, and we could see a

:13:37. > :13:42.collapse in Yemen which could danger our security. Would he agree this

:13:43. > :13:47.latest incident shows the importance of all nations signing up to the

:13:48. > :13:56.cluster munitions legislation, in the same way the UK has? I'm

:13:57. > :14:00.grateful for him to pointing out it is a volatile country which has

:14:01. > :14:04.played host to terrorist organisations. I agree with them it

:14:05. > :14:09.is desirable for more countries to sign up to the Convention on cluster

:14:10. > :14:17.munitions, and we encourage our friends in Saudi Arabia to do so on

:14:18. > :14:23.several occasions. There's been some doubts cast on the validity of

:14:24. > :14:27.evidence produced by Amnesty, but I have seen the whole series of

:14:28. > :14:32.photographs that do suggest cluster munitions are being used in Yemen,

:14:33. > :14:36.and Amnesty have told us that more information was impossible to attain

:14:37. > :14:41.because three people were killed in an incident was carrying out their

:14:42. > :14:46.work, which suggest cluster munitions are being used. Can the

:14:47. > :14:50.Minister explained, has he seen all of the evidence, and will he commit

:14:51. > :14:57.to independently review its? Has he had any other answers to the series

:14:58. > :15:01.of allegations made against cut on attacks against civilians? Not just

:15:02. > :15:07.from Amnesty, but from Oxfam and other organisations, that the

:15:08. > :15:14.Minister admitted he had not had satisfactory answers from? I would

:15:15. > :15:19.say that I'm not casting doubt on the photographic evidence. The

:15:20. > :15:24.challenge is to determine where and when the munitions were laid and by

:15:25. > :15:32.whom, and there is little evidence of that at this point. We are happy,

:15:33. > :15:36.we are taking this up with the Saudi Arabian authorities and are

:15:37. > :15:41.concerned of the evidence of any UK ammunition that might have been use.

:15:42. > :15:46.We will come if we find any evidence, pass it on to the

:15:47. > :15:51.committee. In relation to the questions he posed to me and others

:15:52. > :15:55.who appear before the committee, as to the extent of investigations on

:15:56. > :16:02.other matters that we are reviewing or seeking information on, at this

:16:03. > :16:05.point I'm not aware of any further such information forthcoming since

:16:06. > :16:13.we last met the committee a couple of weeks ago. Can I find him for

:16:14. > :16:19.granting the urging questions to the member? This is a very serious

:16:20. > :16:24.matter, and I'm glad there will be an investigation of the very serious

:16:25. > :16:28.allegations that have been made by honesty International. We are

:16:29. > :16:32.involved in Yemen because we are peacemakers. We want to see peace

:16:33. > :16:37.restored to this country that is bleeding to death because of the

:16:38. > :16:41.involvement of so many countries. We needed the support of the Saudi

:16:42. > :16:47.Arabians in order to restore a legitimate and, because of the

:16:48. > :16:53.actions of the Iranians. It is important they now stop and support

:16:54. > :16:57.the ceasefire, and these kinds of allegations undermine the work that

:16:58. > :17:02.is being done by the Coalition. Could he ensure that the salad year

:17:03. > :17:08.Arabian ambassador is called to see the Foreign Office minister said

:17:09. > :17:12.that we can reinforce the message -- Saudi Arabian, but these undermined

:17:13. > :17:19.the peace process? And that is what you need to make sure is maintained.

:17:20. > :17:24.I'm grateful for the right honourable gentleman he was taking

:17:25. > :17:29.an interest in this country. I'm grateful for pointing out that the

:17:30. > :17:41.Coalition effort in Yemen was issued at the invitation of the president,

:17:42. > :17:46.and therefore it is a fully legitimised operation. He is right

:17:47. > :17:50.that the primary effort of the UK Government is to ensure peace is

:17:51. > :17:57.restored to the country, and to that end, my honourable friend meets the

:17:58. > :18:02.Saudi ambassador routinely, he saw him last week, and presses upon him

:18:03. > :18:07.the importance of the negotiations that have taken place in Kuwait and

:18:08. > :18:17.seeks to provide our assistance with those negotiations. In his earlier

:18:18. > :18:21.reply, the Minister mentioned that he hadn't supplied munitions for

:18:22. > :18:28.long time. Could you clarify the date of the last time munitions were

:18:29. > :18:32.supplied? In my response to the original question, I made it clear

:18:33. > :18:41.that in 1989 was the last time we supplied any of the Kayal 755

:18:42. > :18:45.munitions. The government are digging a deeper hole for

:18:46. > :18:48.themselves. I'd exchanged letters with ministers on this subject and

:18:49. > :18:52.have been informed the government have concluded the Saudi look lead

:18:53. > :18:56.Coalition are not targeting civilians in Yemen. How can the

:18:57. > :19:05.government draw this conclusion when they have stated that whole cities,

:19:06. > :19:12.whether UN Council identified hospitals and mosques have been

:19:13. > :19:19.identified, and Saudis are using UK made cluster munitions, 93% of

:19:20. > :19:26.casualties are civilians, according to the UN. Will the government

:19:27. > :19:30.require a backbone, except Saudi Arabia is in breach of humanitarian

:19:31. > :19:43.law and halt weapon sales until they clean up their act? What I would say

:19:44. > :19:48.is that this is a Civil War and in Civil War difficult things happen.

:19:49. > :19:52.This is a complex environment. Actors use whatever is available to

:19:53. > :19:58.them in terms of the two rain that is there, in order to adopt

:19:59. > :20:03.positions, and it is not a nice straightforward, clinical exercise

:20:04. > :20:08.like might happen in a training event. Therefore, accidents do

:20:09. > :20:12.happen, and as a result of our relationship with the Saudi Arabian

:20:13. > :20:19.Armed Forces, we are in a position to exert some influence on the

:20:20. > :20:22.Coalition and its leadership to investigate accidents when they

:20:23. > :20:26.occur and allegations of instances such as those that the honourable

:20:27. > :20:31.gentleman has mentioned. We are putting the pressure on them, they

:20:32. > :20:36.have said they are undertaken those investigations, and we are waiting

:20:37. > :20:42.on the outcome. Finds to Labour government, we have the Arms export

:20:43. > :20:48.control act of 2002, which provides as country with a robust mechanism

:20:49. > :20:52.for our exports, not just to Saudi Arabia, but to other countries. But

:20:53. > :21:01.the Minister provide what pressures have been put on the Iranians to

:21:02. > :21:05.stop them exporting weapons, and in terms of using them for a direct

:21:06. > :21:11.threat to Saudi Arabia? The honourable gentleman, who is an

:21:12. > :21:17.experienced man in these matters, will be aware of Coalition efforts

:21:18. > :21:25.to intercept material seeking to be supplied to rivals by foreign

:21:26. > :21:36.governments, in particular from Orion -- Iran. My right on friends

:21:37. > :21:41.raised this specific issue, and we will put diplomatic pressure on the

:21:42. > :21:48.Iranians to seek their support. -- right honourable friend. Can I thank

:21:49. > :21:56.the Minister for his response? The issue, along with the defence

:21:57. > :22:01.committee, I attended and the Arms committee and we had a robust

:22:02. > :22:05.exchange of views. Evidence was mentioned about the use of footage

:22:06. > :22:10.of cluster bombs. In your response to the committee and for the

:22:11. > :22:14.purposes of this House today, you stated that if evidence was found

:22:15. > :22:21.that showed British cluster bombs were used, that the sanctions would

:22:22. > :22:29.take place and they would stop arms exports to Saudi Arabia. We now have

:22:30. > :22:33.more evidence that they produced. Will we take action to ensure that

:22:34. > :22:39.exports to Saudi Arabia stopped, because the evidence shows British

:22:40. > :22:43.cluster bombs? The honourable gentleman has taken an interest in

:22:44. > :22:47.the subject and he plays an important role on the committee. I

:22:48. > :22:55.will need to repeat what I said to the committee previously, and that

:22:56. > :22:58.is we will take, we provide advice to the business department who are

:22:59. > :23:05.the entity within the UK Government that provides exports licensors, and

:23:06. > :23:12.the device we will give is shaped by the sake at the time. We have an

:23:13. > :23:19.allegation of the use of a UK munition. Until we have established

:23:20. > :23:26.whether that's munition has been used by a member of the Coalition,

:23:27. > :23:29.we're not in a position at this point to speculate on what might

:23:30. > :23:38.happen the future licence applications. It is important to

:23:39. > :23:43.have a detailed investigation of exactly what was dropped and went,

:23:44. > :23:48.because we all know that munitions can come to light many years after

:23:49. > :23:52.complex, for example we are still finding bombs from World War II in

:23:53. > :23:56.Britain. Does he agreed that that sort of investigation is important

:23:57. > :24:00.because it is a close ally, acting in self defence of a government

:24:01. > :24:04.which is entitled to run that country, and therefore it is not a

:24:05. > :24:09.straightforward matter of condemnation? I'm grateful for him

:24:10. > :24:17.pointing it out that munitions have quite a long shelf life, and it is

:24:18. > :24:21.quite possible that the munitions that have been subject to this

:24:22. > :24:25.allegation may have been a relic of a previous conflict in that area of

:24:26. > :24:32.which there had been seven over the past ten years.

:24:33. > :24:39.Britain was right to join other countries in the world to ban

:24:40. > :24:42.cluster bombs and it is clear in this matter Saudi Arabia have

:24:43. > :24:49.questions to answer. The Minister has mentioned the representations

:24:50. > :24:51.that our Government has made to the Saudi Arabians. Will he explain what

:24:52. > :25:14.work he is doing alongside other countries cluster bombs. Week

:25:15. > :25:20.encourage them to concede to the terms of the convention or join

:25:21. > :25:25.themselves. There are periodic dialogues with those countries that

:25:26. > :25:34.are not as yet signatures to the convention and we will continue to

:25:35. > :25:37.support those discussions. In one of his replies, my right honourable

:25:38. > :25:43.friend mentioned the investigations which the Saudi Government has

:25:44. > :25:47.agreed to undertake into strikes in civilian areas. Could he give us

:25:48. > :25:55.some timetable when he expects to hear results from these

:25:56. > :25:59.investigations by the Saudis. We are looking at the allegations that have

:26:00. > :26:02.been made through the various bodies that have been mentioned in the

:26:03. > :26:09.Chamber earlier in relation to this conflict where we have the

:26:10. > :26:13.opportunity to indicate to the Saudi military that these incidents are

:26:14. > :26:20.worthy of investigation. This is an ongoing process. We have had

:26:21. > :26:24.opportunities to encourage them to speed up their investigations but at

:26:25. > :26:37.this point I can put a timetable on it. It is clear that these munitions

:26:38. > :26:40.are old munitions but they are falling and affecting families and

:26:41. > :26:46.people living in Yemen. Would you not agree that this Government has a

:26:47. > :26:51.responsibility, moral responsibility to act to provide training,

:26:52. > :26:58.resources to the services on the ground in Yemen who are trying to do

:26:59. > :27:04.mine these areas so people don't have to live in safety? She referred

:27:05. > :27:12.to munitions falling. We don't know if the munitions referred to in the

:27:13. > :27:16.allegations today, when, where or how they were delivered. It is that

:27:17. > :27:20.information that will help to inform the investigation and what is done

:27:21. > :27:27.about it. In relation to the clearing up of the munitions that do

:27:28. > :27:31.exist in northern Yemen we are supporting a number of NGO's with

:27:32. > :27:38.resource and training to encourage them to undertake this important

:27:39. > :27:42.work. I am hoping the honourable member for Twickenham was here at

:27:43. > :27:48.the start of the statement. Good. That is good enough for me. With

:27:49. > :27:52.reference to a colleague from North East Hertfordshire, can the Minister

:27:53. > :27:59.tell me when the UK signed the Convention on cluster munitions,

:28:00. > :28:07.what happened to the existing UK manufactured cluster bombs at that

:28:08. > :28:15.time? I can help the honourable lady. The last munitions that were

:28:16. > :28:21.surprised -- surprised -- supply to Saudi Arabia, it did not come into

:28:22. > :28:31.effect until May 2010 and we seized supply and did not support any

:28:32. > :28:36.weapons further. May I congratulate the member for bringing the

:28:37. > :28:43.Government to answer this urgent question. These cluster bombs seemed

:28:44. > :28:46.to be modelled in the 1970s and it undermines the relationship between

:28:47. > :28:50.the UK and the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. Over that time possibly

:28:51. > :28:56.thousands of UK personnel have found themselves either advising Armed

:28:57. > :29:01.Forces or leaving the UK service to take up the role of the Saudi

:29:02. > :29:06.Arabian armed services. How confident is the Minister and the

:29:07. > :29:10.Government and that no UK citizen has been involved in targeting,

:29:11. > :29:15.firing or maintaining these illegal weapons while in the service of the

:29:16. > :29:29.Kingdom of Saudi Arabia? Completely confident. Once again we have

:29:30. > :29:35.ministers prepared to present the Saudi wolf in a sheepdog's clothing.

:29:36. > :29:39.We have given -- we have been given a pub crawl of an excuse. We were

:29:40. > :29:44.told either the weapons were old or there is no evidence of any cluster

:29:45. > :29:49.munitions haven't been used by Saudi led coalition at all. Then there was

:29:50. > :29:53.no evidence that they were British manufactured. Then we have been told

:29:54. > :29:57.that the Minister is concerned and will try to get evidence. Rather

:29:58. > :30:02.asking them about what they have done, were the Mint contact the

:30:03. > :30:08.centre that recovered this material and have it in a deep mining depot

:30:09. > :30:16.and look at the same evidence that Amnesty international have examined?

:30:17. > :30:22.I would say and remind him that we are not members of this coalition.

:30:23. > :30:27.We do not have locus within Yemen to undertake direct investigations

:30:28. > :30:30.ourselves. What we are talking about the alleged violations of

:30:31. > :30:35.international humanitarian law. The correct procedure is when an

:30:36. > :30:40.incident has been brought to the attention of members of the

:30:41. > :30:46.coalition, that the coalition to investigate themselves. We are able

:30:47. > :30:52.to encourage and stimulate them to undertake that investigation because

:30:53. > :30:55.we have a long-standing relationship between our respective Armed Forces

:30:56. > :31:05.and that is what we are doing. That is the right way to proceed. If

:31:06. > :31:09.these reports are not enough. Under what circumstances would the

:31:10. > :31:17.Government consider or suspend sales of arms to Saudi Arabia? This is an

:31:18. > :31:23.allegation. There are a number of allegations of potential breaches of

:31:24. > :31:29.violations of humanitarian law. If such investigations lead to clear

:31:30. > :31:36.evidence, that evidence will have to be taken into account whenever an

:31:37. > :31:46.armed licence is presented and information is relevant. The

:31:47. > :31:52.shocking statistics make it clear that the deaths of civilians in

:31:53. > :31:55.Saudi Arabia are not an accident. They have been indiscriminate and

:31:56. > :31:58.deliberately setting out to kill civilians. Does the Minister not

:31:59. > :32:03.agree that instead of hiding behind the assertion, that we can prove

:32:04. > :32:08.British weapons have been used, the only way to make sure they are not

:32:09. > :32:11.is to call an immediate halt to all arms sales to Saudi Arabia until

:32:12. > :32:18.allegations have been proven to be unfounded? Such a call will have no

:32:19. > :32:22.impact on the use of existing weapons that are already supplied.

:32:23. > :32:31.It wouldn't achieve what the honourable gentleman is looking to

:32:32. > :32:35.do. The answer is that we are using our influence on the Saudi Arabians

:32:36. > :32:39.to encourage them to undertake investigations in a circumstance

:32:40. > :32:43.where there is a conflict and has been conflict on the ground. This

:32:44. > :32:49.has been a war environment. Difficult things happens in wars and

:32:50. > :32:53.it is not possible to be certain about everything that takes place in

:32:54. > :32:56.such an environment. That is why it is important to investigate those

:32:57. > :33:05.allegations that appeared to be a breach. The Minister said no UK made

:33:06. > :33:16.planes have dropped UK made cluster bombs. Can he confirm whether any UK

:33:17. > :33:22.planes have dropped any cluster bombs at all? There are no UK Royal

:33:23. > :33:28.Air Force planes involved in the coalition and there are no cluster

:33:29. > :33:39.munitions within the arsenal of the British Armed Forces. Given the

:33:40. > :33:42.grave concerns raised, with the UK Government heed the recommendation

:33:43. > :33:47.of the International development committee and back the establishment

:33:48. > :33:53.of an independent investigation into alleged breaches of humanitarian law

:33:54. > :34:00.in Yemen? There is a clear process under which the Saudis-macro

:34:01. > :34:04.undertake the operation. They haven't done that before in previous

:34:05. > :34:06.conflicts in which the Saudis-macro been engaged and that is the

:34:07. > :34:18.approach. Statement, the Secretary of State

:34:19. > :34:26.for Defence. Secretary Michael Fallon. With permission I want to

:34:27. > :34:29.update the House on the counter Daesh campaign during the February

:34:30. > :34:36.statement is where my right honourable friend's the foreign and

:34:37. > :34:40.develop an secretary. The attacks in Brussels have reminded us of the

:34:41. > :34:44.port and self-defeating this terror and since the decisive vote to

:34:45. > :34:49.extend their strikes to Syria, we have stepped up our air campaign and

:34:50. > :34:54.today I want to set out the United Kingdom's contribution to military

:34:55. > :35:01.operations and our wider efforts to defeat Daesh. We now have 11 hundred

:35:02. > :35:05.military personnel in the region on this campaign. -- 1000 100. I know

:35:06. > :35:11.the House will want to join me in paying tribute to them and their

:35:12. > :35:16.families who are not with us. The RAF have conducted over 760 air

:35:17. > :35:21.strikes on Iraq and since December 43 strikes in Syria, more than any

:35:22. > :35:28.other nation except the US. As well as providing close air support, we

:35:29. > :35:31.have been targeting Daesh communications and infrastructure

:35:32. > :35:36.and providing intelligence and surveillance. In Iraq we have over

:35:37. > :35:44.250 troops who have trained more than 30,000 members of the Iraqi

:35:45. > :35:47.security forces, mainly in countering explosive devices. The

:35:48. > :35:53.extra troops have now started to deploy. 22 engineering Regiment is

:35:54. > :35:57.providing bridge building training was the MoD hospital unit from

:35:58. > :36:03.Northallerton is providing medical expertise. The military campaign is

:36:04. > :36:07.making progress. In Iraq, Daesh is on the back foot and has lost

:36:08. > :36:13.territory. Its finances have been targeted and its leadership has been

:36:14. > :36:22.struck. 40% of the territory Daesh once held has been retaken including

:36:23. > :36:27.re Mardi, last month and another area. Operations for the settlement

:36:28. > :36:30.of Mo is all are underway and at the weekend the Prime Minister admitted

:36:31. > :36:35.-- announce the beginning of the operation to take Fallujah. In Syria

:36:36. > :36:42.this Syrian war and the persistence of Russia's intervention provides a

:36:43. > :36:45.more complex situation despite the cessation of hostilities. The resume

:36:46. > :36:49.has continued to hammer them moderate opposition. In Aleppo,

:36:50. > :36:55.hospitals and schools have been repeatedly shelled. On the 4th of

:36:56. > :37:01.May, the UK called an urgent session of the new -- Security Council to

:37:02. > :37:07.highlight the atrocities. Russia, the Assad regime's protector, must

:37:08. > :37:15.apply pressure to end this finance. Nonetheless, even in Syria Daesh has

:37:16. > :37:19.lost ground and has been driven away from a major supply route. Coalition

:37:20. > :37:27.air strikes have destroyed an estimated $800 million worth of

:37:28. > :37:32.Daesh cash stockpiles whilst the at RAF has/ F feels in eastern Syria.

:37:33. > :37:37.We need to build on this progress and earlier this month I and other

:37:38. > :37:42.coalition defence ministers refute what cert -- what further support we

:37:43. > :37:47.can offer and we are looking at what more the UK can do. Daesh cannot be

:37:48. > :37:53.defeated by military means alone. That brings me to the wider

:37:54. > :37:59.strategy. First on counter ideology, the UK has led the creation of a

:38:00. > :38:03.coalition communications sell to undermine Daesh failing proposition

:38:04. > :38:07.that they are winning militarily, that they are building a viable

:38:08. > :38:14.state and they represent the only true form of Islam. Some in the

:38:15. > :38:20.media have criticised our proactive efforts to discredit Daesh perverted

:38:21. > :38:23.ideology. I say to the House that we make no apology is seeking to stop

:38:24. > :38:29.people being radicalised and stop them becoming Daesh suicide bombers

:38:30. > :38:34.or foot soldiers. We are supporting political reform and reconciliation

:38:35. > :38:40.in Iraq and the ending of the Civil War in Syria and the transition of

:38:41. > :38:44.Assad from power. We are helping to stabilise area is liberated from

:38:45. > :38:51.Daesh so people can return to a safe environments. We have contributed to

:38:52. > :38:58.UN led efforts to remove ie deep's and increased water availability, to

:38:59. > :39:06.rebuild schools, police stations and electricity generators across

:39:07. > :39:10.provinces. In Syria, long term success means a political settlement

:39:11. > :39:15.which delivers a Government that can represent all Syrians that we can

:39:16. > :39:17.work with to tackle Daesh. Last week the International Syria support

:39:18. > :39:23.group reaffirmed its determination to strengthen the cessation of

:39:24. > :39:25.hostilities and set a deadline 1st of June for four humanitarian access

:39:26. > :39:38.to besieged areas. Despite this agreement, attacks have

:39:39. > :39:44.continued, and armed groups or withdrawing from this. We support

:39:45. > :39:50.the envoy in their efforts to resume peace, the success of which depends

:39:51. > :39:54.on the respect for humanitarian access and the discussion of

:39:55. > :40:02.transactions. The UK is playing a full role in addressing the crisis

:40:03. > :40:10.in Syria. At the London conference we doubled our government to Syria

:40:11. > :40:17.to 2.3 billion, which has delivered over 20 million food rations for

:40:18. > :40:21.over 4.5 million people. There remain 13.5 million people in need

:40:22. > :40:29.inside Syria. The regime continues to remove vital medical supplies

:40:30. > :40:33.from eight convoys, in violation of international law. It is outrageous

:40:34. > :40:39.that aid itself has become a weapon that aid itself has become a weapon

:40:40. > :40:42.of war. We are stemming the flow of foreign fighters through better

:40:43. > :40:49.international coordination, at least 50 countries now pass fighter

:40:50. > :40:53.profiles to Interpol, 400% increase over two years. We estimate the

:40:54. > :41:02.number of fighters joining Daesh has fallen to around 200 a month from

:41:03. > :41:06.its peak of around 2000 a month. Finally, as Daesh has squeeze into

:41:07. > :41:13.Iraq and Syria, we've seen new branches appear, most concerning the

:41:14. > :41:18.in Libya. We visited Tripoli last month. I spoke to the new Libyan

:41:19. > :41:26.defence minister to repeat our offer of assistance to the new government.

:41:27. > :41:29.Last Monday the international unity reaffirmed its support for that

:41:30. > :41:35.government and it underlined the need for a coordination between

:41:36. > :41:40.legitimate Libyan security forces to fight Daesh and UN designated

:41:41. > :41:46.terrorist groups. Britain would only provide training or other support at

:41:47. > :41:50.the invitation of the Libyan governments or by other authority,

:41:51. > :41:57.and let me reiterate to the House, there are no plans to deploy troops

:41:58. > :42:01.in a combat role. Mr Speaker, since this House supported extending

:42:02. > :42:05.military operations, we have intensified our efforts to defeat

:42:06. > :42:11.Watt. There is a long way to go, and political processes, progress needs

:42:12. > :42:18.to match military progress on the ground. But we can be encouraged.

:42:19. > :42:23.This may be a long campaign, but it is one we have to win, and it is one

:42:24. > :42:32.we will win. I commend this station to the House. May I start by joining

:42:33. > :42:39.the secretary of stayed in recognising the bravery of our Armed

:42:40. > :42:44.Forces? -- secretary of. Daesh and those who fight alongside them must

:42:45. > :42:47.be stopped. I was surprised there wasn't recognition from the

:42:48. > :42:52.Secretary of State about the terrible news of the suicide

:42:53. > :42:55.bombings in Syria, that caused so many fatalities, which serves as a

:42:56. > :43:02.reminder that progress, be measured only in terms of the size of Daesh

:43:03. > :43:05.held society. On the heart of the House, may I express all of our

:43:06. > :43:11.condolences to the victims and their families? A particular development

:43:12. > :43:17.was seen at the weekend, which was the launch of the ground offensive

:43:18. > :43:22.against the Daesh stronghold. It is forgotten that around 350 British

:43:23. > :43:27.troops have also been deployed on the ground in Iraq providing vital

:43:28. > :43:35.training and advice to the Iraqi security forces, who have a sub port

:43:36. > :43:42.and -- who have an important stake here, and we will monitor their

:43:43. > :43:46.progress. Syria is a situation which is more complex. Last year, the

:43:47. > :43:52.Secretary of State said we would tighten the noose around the snake

:43:53. > :43:55.which is rattling. By taking the fight to the capital, this will

:43:56. > :44:00.present a challenge as compared to the previous stages of the campaign.

:44:01. > :44:03.In terms of ground forces, Coalition air strikes to date have been,

:44:04. > :44:07.mentored by a number of armed opposition groups on the ground,

:44:08. > :44:13.particularly in northern Syria. But the white PG is unlikely to have a

:44:14. > :44:18.role, given its resistance to the Kurdish regions. There are questions

:44:19. > :44:22.about the numbers and composition of other armed opposition groups. The

:44:23. > :44:27.House was told that the Free Syrian Army prized a majority of 70,000

:44:28. > :44:33.moderate fighters, which would fight in Syria. As the Secretary of State

:44:34. > :44:39.has said himself, air strikes have targeted the Free Syrian Army, among

:44:40. > :44:44.other rebel groups opposed to the Assad regime, but not thought to be

:44:45. > :44:48.affiliated to Daesh. There have been reports in the last 24 hours which

:44:49. > :44:54.indicate the Free Syrian Army may be excluded from the US-led plan to

:44:55. > :45:00.liberate the area. Is this right creche mop if it is, how is the

:45:01. > :45:07.government expected to contribute in to the next stage creche mob will

:45:08. > :45:10.they increase efforts to coordinate the allies? Can the Secretary of

:45:11. > :45:17.State is reassure the House further strikes will restrict casualties, it

:45:18. > :45:22.is an area is to be targeted? The statement we have had on the latter

:45:23. > :45:26.point so far have not provided assurances. We are told the review

:45:27. > :45:32.is carried out after each strike to assess the damage, but there are few

:45:33. > :45:36.details of the process. The MoD considers all reports of civilian

:45:37. > :45:41.casualties, but it is not clear how credibility is defined. Neither is

:45:42. > :45:45.it clear how many reports of casualties the government has

:45:46. > :45:52.received, but that found to be credible, nor even how the very

:45:53. > :45:56.difficult distinguish is made in the first place. I welcome the progress

:45:57. > :46:01.made in this fight against Daesh in recent weeks, and I hope to hear in

:46:02. > :46:02.more detail what strategy the government has taken this campaign

:46:03. > :46:12.forward. I'm grateful to the honourable lady

:46:13. > :46:18.for the tone in which she has approached this. She raised three

:46:19. > :46:21.for specific points. So far as suicide bombings are concerned,

:46:22. > :46:28.she's right to draw the attention to them for sub in Iraq the indicate a

:46:29. > :46:35.switch of tactics by Daesh, because they are being pushed west. We are

:46:36. > :46:43.seeing these suicide explosions in Baghdad, but also in Syria as well.

:46:44. > :46:51.She's also to draw attention to the operations that are likely to be

:46:52. > :46:55.needed to liberate both areas, which are of course the main centres

:46:56. > :47:06.occupied by Daesh at the moment, and are going to require quite sustained

:47:07. > :47:10.and formidable operations by the local forces on the ground. Nobody

:47:11. > :47:17.should underestimate the difficulty involved in that, or the timescales

:47:18. > :47:24.that are involved. Some progress is being made in north-east, northern

:47:25. > :47:29.Syria, and there are operations on going to try and sealed the

:47:30. > :47:36.remaining pockets on the border that are not sealed, and to slowly begin

:47:37. > :47:46.to tighten the noose around is the area. Operations have begun to begin

:47:47. > :47:51.to plan how the city may be recovered, and troops have been

:47:52. > :47:55.moved forward to be ready for that. So far as the numbers involved in

:47:56. > :48:02.Syria, she asked me about the estimate of 70,000. Our view is that

:48:03. > :48:07.the estimate has stood up, they are still numbers of that size involved

:48:08. > :48:12.in fighting the regime. The Syrian Democratic forces are part of that

:48:13. > :48:18.struggle. Finally she asked me about civilian casualties. I should make

:48:19. > :48:22.clear to the House we carry out a battle damage assessment after every

:48:23. > :48:28.RAF strike, we look back again at the evidence as to what the strike

:48:29. > :48:32.actually achieved. To satisfy ourselves that there were no

:48:33. > :48:36.civilian casualties involved, and we will of course look especially at

:48:37. > :48:40.any particular allegation that is made, any piece of evidence that

:48:41. > :48:45.comes to light that there may have been civilian casualties. However,

:48:46. > :48:49.at the moment, after one year and a half of operations in Iraq and

:48:50. > :48:54.Syria, our view remains that we have seen no evidence as yet of civilian

:48:55. > :48:59.casualties being caused by other strikes, and that, I would suggest,

:49:00. > :49:09.is treated to the professionalism of the RAF pilots and crews involved as

:49:10. > :49:19.well as the choice of munitions. Russian media are reporting forces

:49:20. > :49:23.are preparing for an assault on a leper, and there is scope for

:49:24. > :49:30.confusion and miss information on identifying opposition forces. Has

:49:31. > :49:34.there been any work done by creating a joint intelligence picture between

:49:35. > :49:38.the countries who are members of the International Syria support group,

:49:39. > :49:44.so that the capacity to miss information in this area can be

:49:45. > :49:47.addressed? My honourable friend, the Minister of state for the middle

:49:48. > :49:51.east, is already involved in that work as to how we can build of a

:49:52. > :49:58.better picture, and my right honourable friend is right, the

:49:59. > :50:02.picture around Aleppo is the most complex of all, with the different

:50:03. > :50:08.groups fighting it, but he makes an important point of sharing

:50:09. > :50:14.intelligence more wildly. May I thank the Secretary of State for the

:50:15. > :50:19.prior statement? In the debate we had in December in this House, we

:50:20. > :50:24.were told the UK's contribution to help defeat Daesh was a brimstone

:50:25. > :50:30.missile, and that partners were pressurising the UK to bring it to

:50:31. > :50:35.the conflict. This unique contribution argument continued,

:50:36. > :50:39.even after it was shown the Saudi Arabian air force had been using

:50:40. > :50:44.brimstone since February of 2015. Despite that, it remain the central

:50:45. > :50:51.plank of the case for extending UK military action into Syria. Indeed,

:50:52. > :51:06.as early, as late as publisher, a Freedom of Information Act ash macro

:51:07. > :51:11.as late The capacity to minimise civilian categories work best when

:51:12. > :51:14.there is human intelligence on the ground to supply precise

:51:15. > :51:18.information, this explains the other great plank of the government's

:51:19. > :51:24.case, the 70,000 moderate ground troops who were a steward to be

:51:25. > :51:31.ready to cut off the head of the Daesh's head. We were told the

:51:32. > :51:34.Coalition are dropping air leaflets, urging the civilian population to

:51:35. > :51:41.flee the city ahead of an imminent attack. The problem is that the

:51:42. > :51:45.civilian publishing of that city are being used as human shields by Daesh

:51:46. > :51:50.and they have threatened to murder on anyone attempting to leave the

:51:51. > :51:55.city. Could the Secretary of State tell me what discussions has he had

:51:56. > :52:00.with our Coalition partners to decide if the RAF will take part in

:52:01. > :52:07.this imminent bombing of the city, with its large civilian population?

:52:08. > :52:11.I'm grateful to the honourable member for his questions, these are

:52:12. > :52:18.largely operational matters, but I'll do my best to respond. The RAF

:52:19. > :52:23.use a number of precision weapons, the brimstone missiles, for example,

:52:24. > :52:27.the different tasks. The brimstone is suited to striking moving

:52:28. > :52:31.vehicles, for example. The others deal with more static targets like

:52:32. > :52:41.command posts. It so happens I can tell the House that yesterday the

:52:42. > :52:47.RAF attacks use all types of munitions, and there will be more

:52:48. > :52:54.details of that in due course. So far as the city is concerned, we

:52:55. > :52:59.never said the RAF would start bombing indiscriminately. The

:53:00. > :53:03.Coalition will be careful in its use of close air support, as the

:53:04. > :53:08.operations begin to first end circle and then eventually to liberate the

:53:09. > :53:12.suburbs and the city centre involved. Obviously we want to

:53:13. > :53:18.ensure that as many civilian lives are saved as possible, and as in the

:53:19. > :53:25.liberation of other cities, of course the Coalition has been

:53:26. > :53:30.encouraging citizens to leave, to make sure that those lies spread.

:53:31. > :53:39.These are things we discussed regularly inside the Coalition. I'm

:53:40. > :53:42.keen to accommodate all of them on this important statements. The

:53:43. > :53:46.timing of which was flagged up last week by the government, but there

:53:47. > :53:49.are also about 30 people seeking to contribute to the subsequent

:53:50. > :54:01.debates. Dizziness personified as what we require.

:54:02. > :54:12.Pithiness. Those who say we need to work with a sad missing the point.

:54:13. > :54:17.They need look no further than when a convoy was prevented of getting to

:54:18. > :54:21.the town to help starving children. And the brutality of this regime

:54:22. > :54:25.means we have no chance of working with him successfully in the future.

:54:26. > :54:42.I agree and do and the brutality of the Assad regime can play no part.

:54:43. > :54:47.They have been using barrel bombs, chlorine, dropping munitions

:54:48. > :54:52.indiscriminately and they have been robbing humanitarian aid convoys of

:54:53. > :54:57.exactly the medicines that the local community needs. What progress has

:54:58. > :55:06.been made in the cutting off of finances to Daesh apart from the

:55:07. > :55:17.sale of oil like lucrative antiquities and the terrible sale of

:55:18. > :55:22.slaves? We have looked at the illegally traded whaler crosses

:55:23. > :55:27.borders and internally in Syria. We have made progress in cutting down

:55:28. > :55:35.the sale of antiques and artefacts in the international markets and we

:55:36. > :55:41.have had been looking into the cash stockpiles that they have been used

:55:42. > :55:47.-- using to finance themselves. One illustration of the progress has

:55:48. > :55:56.been the reports now that Daesh has begun to cut the pay to its own

:55:57. > :56:00.troops. Daesh remains the best funded terrorist group in history

:56:01. > :56:05.despite the fall in the oil price. How confident is the Secretary of

:56:06. > :56:08.State that Daesh can no longer access the financial infrastructure

:56:09. > :56:12.and resources of the Iraqi state given that the Foreign Affairs

:56:13. > :56:16.Committee still waiting for answers from the Iraqi banking authorities

:56:17. > :56:25.as to Daesh ability to make a turn on the state's currency market.

:56:26. > :56:32.Daesh when it originally established its caliphate so rapidly, was able

:56:33. > :56:38.to access finance in the Central Bank in areas in Iraq. It does levy

:56:39. > :56:41.taxes on the towns and cities it controls. I want to assure my

:56:42. > :56:44.honourable friend that this work is in hand and we are making progress

:56:45. > :56:55.in restricting its financial support. Isn't it now clear that the

:56:56. > :57:01.success of the coalition against Isis will be limited so civilians in

:57:02. > :57:05.Syria continue to be subject to starvation tactics, beseech mint and

:57:06. > :57:10.attacks within unity. Isn't it time for a rethink in the UK strategy to

:57:11. > :57:14.focus much more on civilian production and to that end has

:57:15. > :57:23.operational planning begun by the MoD on supporting them in their

:57:24. > :57:28.deadline of the 1st of June on air drops to besieged communities? The

:57:29. > :57:33.difficulty with airdrops is they are difficult to target on the precise

:57:34. > :57:37.population. It is difficult to drop water in large quantities and the

:57:38. > :57:47.United Nations wants to get food in through humanitarian convoys. We

:57:48. > :57:53.will keep that under review. Last year when I was in Iraq, I was

:57:54. > :58:00.honoured to meet some displaced people in a number of camps and the

:58:01. > :58:05.Secretary of State is right to say that in addition to military action,

:58:06. > :58:09.we need to win the peace. When we levitate -- liberates it is like

:58:10. > :58:15.Fallujah, can I have assurances that a key part of this tragedy is making

:58:16. > :58:18.sure that utilities and water and other things to support Civic

:58:19. > :58:29.Society is something that will be very much part of our plan? Per my

:58:30. > :58:33.-- the Chancellor announced at the G7 last year that we are

:58:34. > :58:40.contributing 300 million in loan guarantees to the World Bank 's to

:58:41. > :58:45.help rebuild an strengthen the economy of Iraq. We are contributing

:58:46. > :58:52.to the Iraqi humanitarian fund that will help tackle poverty and help

:58:53. > :58:56.ensure stability. Getting back the essential services on which people

:58:57. > :59:07.did depend to determine rapidly to the areas that have been liberated.

:59:08. > :59:11.The Secretary of State has talked about the... I wonder if he could

:59:12. > :59:20.explain those not familiar with the promotes S the issue where some

:59:21. > :59:27.targets of void at the last minute because of the awareness of a

:59:28. > :59:36.civilian casualty? When selecting and approving targets for deliberate

:59:37. > :59:41.strikes, we take great care to make sure they respect the rules of

:59:42. > :59:45.engagement that I have set on the beginning of the campaign. It may be

:59:46. > :59:48.studied for several days or even weeks to make sure that we

:59:49. > :00:00.understand the pattern of life that it is building and civilians that

:00:01. > :00:04.are seeing this. Right up until the last moment if civilians are

:00:05. > :00:09.discovered to be in the area, this strike can be aborted right at the

:00:10. > :00:18.end. We take care to minimise civilian casualties. It is not

:00:19. > :00:23.impossible that there may be civilian casualties at some point.

:00:24. > :00:31.All I can tell you is the evidence so far, we think we have avoided

:00:32. > :00:37.them. Can I thank the Secretary of State for this update and can I ask

:00:38. > :00:41.what progress has been made in supplying the arms and ammunition to

:00:42. > :00:45.the brave Kurdish Peshmerga forces that they have been requesting so

:00:46. > :00:52.they can continue to take the fight to Daesh on the ground? Yes, we are

:00:53. > :00:55.planning to provide the Kurdish regional Government with over ?1

:00:56. > :01:03.million worth of further ammunition to equip the Peshmerga. We have

:01:04. > :01:07.supplied ammunition and arms to start with and we have done a lot of

:01:08. > :01:12.training. We have trained 3000 of the Peshmerga to fight but we have

:01:13. > :01:17.this further shipment in hand at the moment and subject to the approval

:01:18. > :01:21.of parliament and there is a special procedure by which Parliament has

:01:22. > :01:26.two signifies approval subject to the prudent apartment. I hope that

:01:27. > :01:33.ammunition will be with the Kurdish Peshmerga in the next few weeks.

:01:34. > :01:37.What assessment has the Secretary of State made in relation to the number

:01:38. > :01:43.of Daesh operating in Europe as opposed to Syria and how effective

:01:44. > :01:50.has worked been preventing conscription to Daesh both here and

:01:51. > :01:56.abroad? It is a very good question because we may well see as the Daesh

:01:57. > :02:04.is squeezed in Syria and Iraq, we may see some backlash from Daesh in

:02:05. > :02:08.its external attack planning against Western European or British targets.

:02:09. > :02:12.We are vigilant and working with our partners cross Europe to make sure

:02:13. > :02:17.that we understand how that attack planning has been carried out and

:02:18. > :02:28.that we can track down those who are likely to be responsible for the

:02:29. > :02:30.future attacks. I think the Secretary of State for the update. I

:02:31. > :02:34.understand there are reports that the Russians have asked the

:02:35. > :02:40.Americans to join them in joint strikes. Have they made such a

:02:41. > :02:44.request for the United Kingdom and if so does the Secretary of State

:02:45. > :02:47.share many concerns that such a move would undermine the political

:02:48. > :02:57.process because many see the Russians as the aggressors? The gift

:02:58. > :03:01.to push the political process on and to use its influence with the Assad

:03:02. > :03:10.regime much more constructively than it has done so far we are covered

:03:11. > :03:13.and our own strike airport -- aircraft are covered by the

:03:14. > :03:20.memorandum between the US and Russia and so far is the conflict in the

:03:21. > :03:29.aerospace. We are not otherwise core operating. First of all I welcome

:03:30. > :03:35.this quarterly report and we need to be in a cycle of delivering these

:03:36. > :03:38.reports with a focus on Daesh. I would like to thank the Secretary of

:03:39. > :03:43.State and the MoD for the helpful briefing that was given yesterday in

:03:44. > :03:47.relation to Daesh. I asked two questioned yesterday. One was about

:03:48. > :03:50.no-fly zones and the secretary is clear that there is no scope for fly

:03:51. > :03:55.zones at the moment. I hope you will keep that under review so if Assad

:03:56. > :03:58.on the Russians agreed to it, that we can implement it rapidly. The

:03:59. > :04:05.second question which wasn't answered was in relation to Raqqa

:04:06. > :04:11.and Mozilla. If they are turned into Stalingrad, wasp or can we give to

:04:12. > :04:17.civilians within those cities? We are added into the quarterly rhythm.

:04:18. > :04:24.First statement was December and the next one is February. It is useful

:04:25. > :04:29.to be updated on that kind of timescale. No-fly zones, it is the

:04:30. > :04:33.practical application of the no-fly zone that I need persuading about

:04:34. > :04:38.and not clear at the moment how a no-fly zone could be properly

:04:39. > :04:45.policed. The worst thing would be to offer a no-fly zone that is not

:04:46. > :04:54.actually safe. On his final point on Raqqa, these are large cities but at

:04:55. > :04:57.the moment large civilian populations need operations that

:04:58. > :05:03.will take a long time. They will take a long time to persuade those

:05:04. > :05:07.billions that Daesh is not their future and they would be best placed

:05:08. > :05:16.to leave while the fighting is going on. I pay tribute to the men and

:05:17. > :05:21.women of our armed services who are working day in, day out to liberate

:05:22. > :05:28.people from Daesh. When he confirmed to me what preparations are being

:05:29. > :05:31.made for post-conflict reconstruction one areas are

:05:32. > :05:39.liberated from Daesh and what part the UK's playing in that? I am

:05:40. > :05:44.grateful for what he said and I will ensure that is passed back to all

:05:45. > :05:50.those involved in this huge effort, our biggest single military

:05:51. > :05:58.undertaking the moment. Civilisation is the key to this. After liberating

:05:59. > :06:02.a town or city it is essential to offer the local population security

:06:03. > :06:06.and stability they need be able to return. We are cooperating with our

:06:07. > :06:11.partners and there is a huge amount of work going on, on a stabilisation

:06:12. > :06:20.effort. It will be offered to each city and town in turn as it is

:06:21. > :06:25.liberated. Thank you for taking me so early so I can get out of the

:06:26. > :06:28.Chamber and is there everybody my germs. Thank you for his statement.

:06:29. > :06:35.Given the large areas of north-eastern Syria that cannot be

:06:36. > :06:39.secured, can the Minister outline what practical supply -- but were

:06:40. > :06:44.given to the Syrian Kurds what effort is being made to include in

:06:45. > :06:51.diplomatic negotiations? It is problematic for a key actor to be

:06:52. > :06:59.included for peace talks given their strategic importance in any future

:07:00. > :07:04.peace settlement. The Kurds are represented in the Syrian talks and

:07:05. > :07:10.is not the object of these talks and we shouldn't do skewed every Kurdish

:07:11. > :07:16.group. The Syrian Kurds have to be part of the solution. Many of them

:07:17. > :07:20.have come forward in the fight against Daesh as well as the fight

:07:21. > :07:27.against the regime and they have to be part of the future. I would also

:07:28. > :07:31.like to thank my right honourable friend for his update today and to

:07:32. > :07:34.add my thanks to the British military personnel who was serving

:07:35. > :07:40.in the region on our behalf. I would like to ask what assurance he can

:07:41. > :07:44.give us here in the House today that as the military campaign progresses,

:07:45. > :07:50.that we are doing all we can to ensure the political track also

:07:51. > :07:57.moves forward? We have these talks underway for the future of Syria and

:07:58. > :08:01.they need to make more progress. She is right. In Iraq we have not seen

:08:02. > :08:06.the political progress we need to match the military progress which is

:08:07. > :08:11.getting ahead of the reforms and securitisation and stabilisation

:08:12. > :08:14.that we need to see following on, particularly in Anbar Province. We

:08:15. > :08:18.owed the Government to crack on with the reforms that are needed to

:08:19. > :08:23.create a national Guard in which people can have confidence, to give

:08:24. > :08:28.the governors the powers they need to get essential services up and

:08:29. > :08:36.running and to ensure that the areas that are liberated them properly

:08:37. > :08:43.policed. The Secretary of State's statement doesn't refer at all to

:08:44. > :08:50.either the Syrian Kurds or to the Iraqi Kurds. In answer to a question

:08:51. > :08:56.earlier he said that there would be at some point in the future the long

:08:57. > :09:03.delayed supply of relation to the Peshmerga. Can he tell us why it is

:09:04. > :09:07.taking so long? The Peshmerga are able to access ammunition for a

:09:08. > :09:12.number of serve -- sources. They have the funding to purchase it and

:09:13. > :09:19.some more funding has gone in from the US recently. We are not able to

:09:20. > :09:24.supply the Kurdish Peshmerga direct. It is part of the unitary state of

:09:25. > :09:29.Iraq and therefore supplies have to be rooted through Iraq and we also

:09:30. > :09:36.have to consider the needs of the Iraqi forces, the Iraqi army itself.

:09:37. > :09:38.I have agreed this new shipment of ammunition and I hope it will be

:09:39. > :09:51.going out there surely. I thank the Secretary of State for

:09:52. > :09:56.the update. What is clear is that when areas are liberated, venues be

:09:57. > :10:00.a system of law and order to be put in place. Would he agree that whilst

:10:01. > :10:04.there may be some need for transitional arrangements, in the

:10:05. > :10:14.long-term sad cannot be the solution in Syria? -- Assad. There is no

:10:15. > :10:20.future for a sad in Syria. He needs to depart. We want to see what we

:10:21. > :10:25.have in Iraq, the government that is representative of all groups in

:10:26. > :10:32.Syria, who are prepared to work towards a democratic and

:10:33. > :10:38.representative administration. The Secretary of State said it is

:10:39. > :10:46.outrageous that aid has become a weapon of war, and those outrages

:10:47. > :10:49.have consequences for civilians and four children that are grievous, and

:10:50. > :10:56.with that in mind, can I ask what preparation is going on woman the UK

:10:57. > :10:59.Government to make sure such crimes are investigated, and at some point

:11:00. > :11:05.in the future, someone is held accountable? I can give heard that

:11:06. > :11:11.reassurance, that'll be an important part of the work that will be needed

:11:12. > :11:17.when the conflict finally ends. We are already now working with people

:11:18. > :11:20.to collect, to see what they need, the funding and resources they need,

:11:21. > :11:31.to collect the evidence that will be required to nail those responsible.

:11:32. > :11:34.It is often said that any lasting peaceful solution in Syria will only

:11:35. > :11:39.take place in partnership with Russia, that's been a view that is

:11:40. > :11:46.being expressed here. Two questions. When did they last meet with the

:11:47. > :11:50.Foreign Secretary and respective Russian government, and will the

:11:51. > :11:58.Secretary of State make a commitment that the peaceful solution delivered

:11:59. > :12:04.in a three-year target date for having? On the first, Russia has

:12:05. > :12:10.legitimate interests and inference in Syria, and we want to bring that

:12:11. > :12:18.to bear constructively. So far as the Foreign Secretary is concerned,

:12:19. > :12:24.he needs his counterpart, he met him last week. On the third and final

:12:25. > :12:29.question, I said an original timescale, it wasn't mine, it was

:12:30. > :12:37.secretary Ceri's timescale, when we asked the House to motionless. He

:12:38. > :12:49.said it would take three years. We're not into the second year, it

:12:50. > :12:52.is going to be a long campaign. Turkey is a key Nato ally and a

:12:53. > :12:57.partner with others in the fight against Daesh. It has taken in and

:12:58. > :13:04.provided a safe haven to millions of people fleeing from the terror in

:13:05. > :13:10.Syria and Iraq. Can I ask the Secretary of State, what support is

:13:11. > :13:16.the UK Government offering Turkey in its internal fight against Daesh and

:13:17. > :13:22.the terrorist attacks it has experience, and also the other

:13:23. > :13:26.groups that have been identified that are operating there? I visited

:13:27. > :13:33.Ankara for discussions just after one of the first attacks the in

:13:34. > :13:36.Turkey. We have offered Turkey systems on the counter terrorism,

:13:37. > :13:42.and we should applaud the role Turkey is playing in looking after

:13:43. > :13:46.so many refugees, over 2 million refugees, the efforts they are

:13:47. > :13:52.making to close the border and to stem the flow of foreign fighters,

:13:53. > :13:56.and to restrict Daesh's ability to trade in arm. Turkey deserves

:13:57. > :14:00.enormous credit for that. So far as the latter part of her question, I

:14:01. > :14:08.hope she will allow me to answer that. In the Secretary of State's

:14:09. > :14:13.statement, he refers to the number of fighters reducing down to 200. I

:14:14. > :14:17.wondered if he could say, has he made any assessment of the numbers

:14:18. > :14:21.of UK citizens who have been travelling out to support Daesh,

:14:22. > :14:26.both male and female, and how many have been returning to the UK? I

:14:27. > :14:31.will try get that more specific information to her, which I don't

:14:32. > :14:35.have at hand. The estimate of 200 is 200 foreign fighters joining a

:14:36. > :14:42.month, the figure of 2000 joining a month when they were at its peak a

:14:43. > :14:47.couple of years ago. They have more than 200, but the flow of new

:14:48. > :14:52.foreign fighters has reduced considerably.

:14:53. > :15:01.At the time of the Syria debate in October, there was goddess gestures

:15:02. > :15:05.that Russia would work toward a stable transition in Syria within a

:15:06. > :15:09.six-month period. Clearly it hasn't happened. Can the Secretary of State

:15:10. > :15:15.say if there's any hope of Russia playing a constructive role or not?

:15:16. > :15:19.We hope for that, and it is a pressing it hasn't happened. Russia

:15:20. > :15:23.has huge inference, it could have been playing a more constructive

:15:24. > :15:28.role, but we've seen what happened after the so-called hostilities

:15:29. > :15:33.agreed in February. We still see Russia playing a malevolent role,

:15:34. > :15:44.claiming to withdraw some of its forces but supplying new helicopters

:15:45. > :15:49.and not directing its fire against the Daesh. He asked what hope, we

:15:50. > :15:54.should always be hopeful, we will continue to engage forever assured

:15:55. > :16:06.and urge them to bring it inference that there -- it's

:16:07. > :16:16.influence to bear. It is extremely difficult to establish any kind of

:16:17. > :16:22.safe corridor in Syria, vertically northern Syria, where such groups

:16:23. > :16:31.are under most threats. If I may, I will look at that specifically

:16:32. > :16:34.later. This point about civilian deaths is really important because

:16:35. > :16:42.the assurance we were given last year when asked to stand the is

:16:43. > :16:47.estimated time for air strikes with a central point in persuading me to

:16:48. > :16:52.support the government proposal, so whilst I welcome what he said today,

:16:53. > :16:57.what additional reassurance can he provide about the steps the REF is

:16:58. > :17:07.taken to protect civilians in Syria and ensure they are not the victims

:17:08. > :17:13.of the REF work? -- REF. We have rules of engagement, as well as in

:17:14. > :17:22.Iraq, those are different the rules and each country. Any deliberate

:17:23. > :17:26.targets have to the approved, and that will include the choice of

:17:27. > :17:31.munition involved and an absolute assurance that on civilians using or

:17:32. > :17:38.near likely to use that particular building or area that is likely to

:17:39. > :17:45.be bombed. That is checked. Over a period of days, perhaps weeks, while

:17:46. > :17:51.the target is watched. And our commanders in the operations centre

:17:52. > :17:55.in the Gulf, as well as the pilots themselves, can up until the last

:17:56. > :17:58.moment pull-back from the strike itself if they have any concern at

:17:59. > :18:07.all there may be civilians in the area. Now, obviously in some of the

:18:08. > :18:11.areas where there is very intense fighting, whether it's close air

:18:12. > :18:16.support, it is going to be more and more difficult to ensure that we

:18:17. > :18:20.avoid civilian casualties, but all I can say is that our policy is to

:18:21. > :18:24.absolutely avoid the risk of civilian casualties, and so far we

:18:25. > :18:33.believe the art AF had been successful in doing that -- REF. If

:18:34. > :18:39.the government predictions have proven correct, Syria would have a

:18:40. > :18:44.transitional government next week. What is the Minister's most up to

:18:45. > :18:51.date predictions on these two milestones? To be honest, I would

:18:52. > :18:55.not have predicted the progress that has been made in Iraq over the last

:18:56. > :19:00.few weeks and months, which has been more rapid than I would have

:19:01. > :19:04.believed, had the honourable member asked me that during the debate in

:19:05. > :19:09.September. In Syria, it has been faster than we would have wanted,

:19:10. > :19:15.far slower than I thought would be the case when it was agreed in

:19:16. > :19:20.Munich in February. But this is war, there are a lot of people involved,

:19:21. > :19:25.who have an interest in sustaining this war, especially the Assad

:19:26. > :19:38.regime, and we have to keep working at it. You will be aware of Daesh's

:19:39. > :19:44.attacks on Aleppo, very brutal and violent. Many thousands of people

:19:45. > :19:52.died and were injured, so there were 225,000 Christians who live there,

:19:53. > :19:56.they used to be 80,000 Armenian Christians, now only 10,000. What

:19:57. > :20:01.stats for the government take to ensure any support or opposition

:20:02. > :20:07.groups does not indirectly benefit extremist targeting minorities such

:20:08. > :20:11.as to questions in Aleppo? What is happening in Aleppo is nothing short

:20:12. > :20:18.of a tragedy. It is a beautiful city, a tolerance city which

:20:19. > :20:22.contains... I visited myself, it contains all kinds of groups, from

:20:23. > :20:27.different faves living and working happily alongside each other. But it

:20:28. > :20:31.is important that those groups too, all of them, are represented in the

:20:32. > :20:42.drive for a political settlement, and that is our aim. I join the

:20:43. > :20:50.condemnation of the attacks and raids on aid convoys. What support

:20:51. > :20:56.can the UK pervades to such convoys? -- provides. That is very difficult

:20:57. > :21:00.in Syria with multiple strikes being carried out by the regime against

:21:01. > :21:05.its opponents. As well as our need to continue to keep the pressure up

:21:06. > :21:11.on the infrastructure that supports the Daesh. These attacks could stop,

:21:12. > :21:16.it's within the gift of the regime to stop them, and it within the gift

:21:17. > :21:23.of the Russians to bring their influence to bear, and I hope they

:21:24. > :21:27.will do. The Defence Secretary topped about people returning to a

:21:28. > :21:31.safe environments, something we would all support. What more is

:21:32. > :21:36.being done by the International committee to secure the freedom of

:21:37. > :21:45.the Yazidi women who were captured and put into slavery? We have had

:21:46. > :21:51.some success in pop relations were telling, particularly in to Crete

:21:52. > :22:01.where the bus majority of the population has returned. -- basta

:22:02. > :22:05.majority -- vast majority. There are different circumstances in each of

:22:06. > :22:10.these areas. So far as the Yazidi women are concerned, we're working

:22:11. > :22:17.with the engineers to see what we can do to identify where they are

:22:18. > :22:26.being held and what more could be done to help them too to return.

:22:27. > :22:32.Just returning to the statement where the Secretary of State says a

:22:33. > :22:38.foreign fighters reduced to 200 a month. That is welcome. We can build

:22:39. > :22:47.upon that to drive back down to zero and isolated. Yes, I hope so and we

:22:48. > :22:53.are working closely with our partners, there are over 40

:22:54. > :22:56.countries reporting in on foreign fighters through Interpol and the

:22:57. > :22:59.other international organisations, said that we share information about

:23:00. > :23:05.these fighters as they travelled towards Iraq or Syria, and of course

:23:06. > :23:09.we have to play our part in ensuring more people aren't being radicalised

:23:10. > :23:19.here and keep tabs on those who are likely to go out there. Would the

:23:20. > :23:24.Secretary of State to give insurance cut assurance to the House that the

:23:25. > :23:29.Daesh will not take part in air strikes against Temple macro in

:23:30. > :23:37.Libya without a further vote in this House -- Daesh. We're not planning

:23:38. > :23:42.any combat role for our troops or the RAF in Libya, that is not part

:23:43. > :23:48.of our planning. If we considered further military action against the

:23:49. > :23:54.Daesh, where ever it was, we would of course come to this House to

:23:55. > :24:01.discuss it first. The recent report by young Syrians argues that many

:24:02. > :24:09.acts as a key recruiter for Daesh, claiming that while the Syrian army

:24:10. > :24:12.pays for example $100 a month, Daesh could pay three times that. What

:24:13. > :24:22.alternative economic options for young Syrians are there to undermine

:24:23. > :24:26.Daesh's recruitment? The first thing is to undermine Daesh's own access

:24:27. > :24:30.to revenue and finance, and there is some evidence we are beginning to do

:24:31. > :24:36.that, to reduce it to the earnings it gets from oil and other trades,

:24:37. > :24:41.and some evidence, anecdotal perhaps, a body of evidence that it

:24:42. > :24:46.pay rates to fighters are actually being reduced. Beyond that, we got

:24:47. > :24:50.to get the Syrian economy going, and the sooner we get a critical

:24:51. > :24:55.settlement, we can get the money in, which a lot of other countries

:24:56. > :24:59.pledged jeering the London conference, money ready and waiting

:25:00. > :25:03.to go in to build the Syrian economy and to do the most important thing

:25:04. > :25:07.of all, which is to give the young people of Syria a reason to stay in

:25:08. > :25:08.Syria and to build a new society there that are safe and secure for

:25:09. > :25:22.their future. The clerk will read the orders of

:25:23. > :25:26.the day. The Queen's Speech, adjourned debate for question. The

:25:27. > :25:35.question is that a humble address be presented to Her Majesty as on the

:25:36. > :25:39.order paper. Mr Hammond. I am delighted to open this debate and

:25:40. > :25:44.want to congratulate the opposition on selecting it. The security of

:25:45. > :25:49.Britain and the British people, our relations with Europe and the

:25:50. > :25:53.promotion of Britain's values including human rights around the

:25:54. > :25:58.world at the heart of our foreign policy. When you're into this

:25:59. > :26:02.parliament, the challenges we face to our security, prosperity and

:26:03. > :26:06.values have not diminished. If anything, they are growing. The

:26:07. > :26:11.threat posed by Daesh and its affiliates continues and is now

:26:12. > :26:16.manifested itself in attacks in European cities. The wider in the

:26:17. > :26:23.Middle East persists. The Israel Palestine question is no nearer a

:26:24. > :26:25.solution. North Korea has demonstrated his determination to

:26:26. > :26:28.flout international law by developing nuclear weapons and

:26:29. > :26:34.ballistic missile is to deliver them. And Russia the same by its

:26:35. > :26:40.kind to nude destabilisation of Ukraine and its illegal occupation

:26:41. > :26:46.of Crimea. -- the same by its destabilisation. The eastern

:26:47. > :26:51.Mediterranean is presenting new challenges to our new neighbours in

:26:52. > :26:55.Europe. And as we approach the referendum in just over four weeks'

:26:56. > :26:58.time, even the theoretical possibility that Britain might vote

:26:59. > :27:04.to leave the European Union is having a chilling effect on economic

:27:05. > :27:09.growth and business, and consumer confidence. Whatever we look, our

:27:10. > :27:15.world is becoming more dangerous and more uncertain. Madam Deputy

:27:16. > :27:19.Speaker, against this hazardous global backdrop, some have argued

:27:20. > :27:25.for retrenchment and withdrawal from a global role as the safest option.

:27:26. > :27:34.We cannot turn our backs. As a trading nation, with one of the

:27:35. > :27:40.largest and most that Mac... Our security depends on global stability

:27:41. > :27:45.and order. With 5 million British National is living overseas and

:27:46. > :27:50.million more travelling every year, and with our trade dependent on the

:27:51. > :27:53.sea lanes and airways that our arteries of commerce, international

:27:54. > :28:01.engagement and influence are fundamental to maintaining Britain's

:28:02. > :28:04.security and prosperity. I give way. My rate of honourable friend paints

:28:05. > :28:09.a picture of us wanting to retrench for those who wish to leave the

:28:10. > :28:14.European Union. This could not be further for the truth and I suggest

:28:15. > :28:19.that Project Fear is going down a negative path. In leaving, we would

:28:20. > :28:22.have greater freedoms to trade and foreign deals with the rest of the

:28:23. > :28:27.world. We are barred from doing that at the moment, as a member of the

:28:28. > :28:34.EU, we cannot form individual trading agreements. Project

:28:35. > :28:41.Paranoia, I was not referring to the exit campaign. I was just observing

:28:42. > :28:44.there have been that those who have suggested pretensions. Since my

:28:45. > :28:49.honourable friend has taken me in that direction, let me answer his

:28:50. > :28:55.question. We enjoy free trade with 53 nations high virtue of free trade

:28:56. > :29:01.agreements negotiated by the European Union. Those campaigning

:29:02. > :29:07.for an exit, if we were to leave the European Union, they tell me, we

:29:08. > :29:11.would rapidly to go seek new trade agreements with the European Union

:29:12. > :29:15.itself and the 53 countries that that union has free-trade agreements

:29:16. > :29:21.with. Our experience in the free world is that these agreements take

:29:22. > :29:25.lots of time. The EU Canada agreement has been seven years in

:29:26. > :29:29.the negotiating and it is still not ratified. Another small problem that

:29:30. > :29:34.my honourable friend should think about, we do not actually have any

:29:35. > :29:41.trade negotiators. The BBC team to negotiate these 53 plus one

:29:42. > :29:45.agreements from scratch. -- the BBC can do. The European Union has

:29:46. > :29:50.negotiated Oliver trade agreement on our behalf and we do not have civil

:29:51. > :29:58.servants -- experienced in this field. Has he made any assessment of

:29:59. > :30:02.how many additional members of staff either his department or the

:30:03. > :30:07.business department would have to have in order to deal with this

:30:08. > :30:10.problem and how many years it would take to train them? The latter point

:30:11. > :30:16.is more important than the first if I may say so. It is not just a

:30:17. > :30:22.question of people that out, call up the job centre and say, could you

:30:23. > :30:25.send us some experienced trade negotiators? We would literally be

:30:26. > :30:30.starting from scratch. When I look across the Atlantic at the world's

:30:31. > :30:35.largest economy and the trade negotiation team they have under

:30:36. > :30:39.Peter Froman, an extremely good team, it is a very small team. They

:30:40. > :30:47.have struggled to carry out two trade negotiations in parallel. The

:30:48. > :30:52.idea that any matter of months or years we would've negotiated a

:30:53. > :30:55.massive deal with the European union and 53 separate trade agreements

:30:56. > :31:00.with other countries around the world, before starting on the

:31:01. > :31:08.expansion programme that my honourable friend refers to, is, to

:31:09. > :31:12.quote the Prime Minister, the birds. Isn't it actually worse than he is

:31:13. > :31:16.setting out because many of those countries have signed trade deals

:31:17. > :31:21.with the European Union in order to get access to the single market and

:31:22. > :31:28.was he as dismayed as I was to hear major opponents of Boat Leads call

:31:29. > :31:36.for us not to be joining single market if we leave? I was astonished

:31:37. > :31:42.to hear leading exit campaign suggesting that we do not want to be

:31:43. > :31:44.part of the single market. Until relatively recently, the position

:31:45. > :31:50.was that we could have it all. We could be outside but somehow we can

:31:51. > :31:53.get free and privileged access to the single market, something that

:31:54. > :31:58.was never likely to be possible but was at least an omission. Now we are

:31:59. > :32:04.told we do not want to be part of the single market. -- and ambition.

:32:05. > :32:07.That is a manifesto for the impoverishment of the British

:32:08. > :32:13.people. From the Treasury model, we would be looking at ?3500 per annum

:32:14. > :32:18.per household by the end of the next decade, production and our standard

:32:19. > :32:22.of living. As the Prime Minister said yesterday, sometimes we have to

:32:23. > :32:28.deal with recessions and economic pressure that comes from us from

:32:29. > :32:31.outside. -- a reduction. We do not have to deal with a DIY recession

:32:32. > :32:37.that is entirely self-inflicted and we should avoid it at all costs. I

:32:38. > :32:43.would like to make some progress of the Honourable Member would allow

:32:44. > :32:46.me. In the security and defence review and the spending review

:32:47. > :32:51.published at the end of last year, we took decisions to invest in our

:32:52. > :32:53.security and safeguard our prosperity, to maintain our

:32:54. > :32:58.world-class Armed forces, to grow our unique security and intelligence

:32:59. > :33:02.agencies and through the investigatory Powers Bill to give

:33:03. > :33:05.them the powers they need to track down terrorists and others who seek

:33:06. > :33:10.to do us harm and to protect our global Hippocratic network by

:33:11. > :33:20.maintaining the FCO's budget in real terms. This is underpinned to make

:33:21. > :33:27.the need to target of 2% of GDP as defence spending and 0.7% a target

:33:28. > :33:32.of GNI on overseas aid, making Britain the only major country in

:33:33. > :33:38.the world that meets both of these commitments. I give way to my

:33:39. > :33:43.honourable friend. He mentioned diplomatic... Would you remind the

:33:44. > :33:46.House how many new diplomatic posts have been opened under this

:33:47. > :33:51.Government and its coalition predecessor when we previously did

:33:52. > :33:55.not have diplomatic representation? My honourable friend is testimony on

:33:56. > :33:59.the exact number. I think it is one dozen new posts or more that had

:34:00. > :34:03.been opened but I will write to him with the exact figure. The important

:34:04. > :34:07.point is that we have opened new posts in secondary cities in China.

:34:08. > :34:12.When we talk about a secondary city in China, it is one of the

:34:13. > :34:18.population between 5-10,000,000. And in India as well as reopening posts

:34:19. > :34:29.in Latin America that we had withdrawn from. He mentioned a

:34:30. > :34:36.commitment to the 2% of GDP on defence spending, can he not

:34:37. > :34:42.confirmed that had we not transparent ?820 million from the

:34:43. > :34:46.pensions budget and other funds from other departments, Britain would

:34:47. > :34:54.have fallen below the 2% and by this sleight of hand, yes, we have

:34:55. > :34:58.committed to need 2% but have not added a single penny to the defence

:34:59. > :35:04.budget when we face a very dangerous world indeed. My right honourable

:35:05. > :35:11.friend where both defence ministers in a past life and there is no

:35:12. > :35:15.sleight of hand. The 2% target which is a Nato target is based on Nato

:35:16. > :35:23.definitions and Britain will stem the 2% of its GDP on defence

:35:24. > :35:29.spending -- will spend. That is according to Nato definitions.

:35:30. > :35:32.Talking to people in the defence community, the important thing for

:35:33. > :35:35.them is not the amount of money that is being spent today, it is the

:35:36. > :35:41.long-term commitment to maintaining defence spending of 2% of our GDP so

:35:42. > :35:45.that our spending on our defence will rise in line with our

:35:46. > :35:53.prosperity as a nation and that is the right thing for us to do. I will

:35:54. > :35:57.be tempted by my honourable friend and will take one more intervention.

:35:58. > :36:01.My right honourable friend is right, no Nato rules have been broken and

:36:02. > :36:05.we can argue about whether there was any new money or whether it was

:36:06. > :36:11.money we could have counted in the past but didn't. The important point

:36:12. > :36:15.is that 2% is not a target for us, it is a minimum. The last time we

:36:16. > :36:22.faced threats of the sort that we are facing now was in the 1980s. In

:36:23. > :36:26.those days we spent between 4-5% of the GDP on defence. We're not

:36:27. > :36:32.talking here about bringing the church bells over 2%, we need to

:36:33. > :36:40.raise our sights to a higher figure altogether. My friend is right. This

:36:41. > :36:44.is a minimum commitment. They reassured and it gives to our armed

:36:45. > :36:49.forces and our military about that level of spend and the fact it is

:36:50. > :36:53.linked to our rising GDP is very important. There is another point

:36:54. > :36:57.that is equally as important. It is not just the amount of money that is

:36:58. > :37:03.spent, although that is important, it is how we spend it in order to

:37:04. > :37:08.ensure the maximum defence effect. Madam Deputy Speaker, I will come to

:37:09. > :37:13.the honourable lady in a moment. The first duty of any British Government

:37:14. > :37:17.is to keep our homeland and people safe and secure. Today, threats to

:37:18. > :37:23.that security take to my principal forms. The immediate risk of

:37:24. > :37:27.terrorism associated with violent extremist Islamist and Daesh in

:37:28. > :37:30.particular. And the longer term threat from the breakdown of rules

:37:31. > :37:34.in the international system which has underpinned our safety and

:37:35. > :37:44.prosperity since the end of the Cold War. We are engaged in what the

:37:45. > :37:45.Prime Minister has described as a generational struggle against

:37:46. > :37:50.Islamist extremism. It is a struggle against not a particular country or

:37:51. > :37:54.a particular organisation, but against a poisonous ideology that

:37:55. > :38:00.looks to conduct one of the world's great religions. The terrorist

:38:01. > :38:06.attacks in the last year in Paris, Brussels, in the skies over Egypt

:38:07. > :38:10.and the beaches of Tunisia, in Baghdad, Lebanon and Pakistan. Many

:38:11. > :38:16.other places, it has demonstrated the threat of Islamist extremism is

:38:17. > :38:21.global. It is a threat that seeks to undermine our values, our democracy

:38:22. > :38:28.and freedom. It is targeting British citizens and those of our allies. In

:38:29. > :38:32.spite of the tragic loss of life, we should not overlook the progress we

:38:33. > :38:37.have made in pushing Daesh back in Iraq and Syria and undermining the

:38:38. > :38:40.Accord narrative of the caliphate. The Defence Secretary has set out in

:38:41. > :38:45.his statement to the House the leading role that the UK has played

:38:46. > :38:51.and the military success that we are achieving in Iraq and Syria. And

:38:52. > :38:54.now, as the tide turns against Daesh. We are turning their own

:38:55. > :38:59.weapons against them. Harnessing the power of the Internet to expose

:39:00. > :39:05.their lives, challenge the ideology and undermine the claim to be a

:39:06. > :39:09.viable state. On the humanitarian front, Britain continues to be at

:39:10. > :39:15.the forefront of the international response. We have committed over

:39:16. > :39:19.?2.3 billion of sales and at the London conference in February, we

:39:20. > :39:23.raised more than $12 billion, the largest amount ever raised in a

:39:24. > :39:28.single day for a humanitarian crisis. At the International said in

:39:29. > :39:33.a support group meeting in June Ivan Basso Judy, a British proposal to

:39:34. > :39:38.begin US you got to be seen to communities in Syria at President

:39:39. > :39:44.Assad blocks access was agreed by all parties. -- in February.

:39:45. > :39:48.Including the Russians and Iranians. Through the leading role, Britain is

:39:49. > :39:51.at the forefront of the international effort to end the

:39:52. > :39:55.setting in the Civil War. A precondition to defeating Daesh and

:39:56. > :40:00.to dealing with the migration crisis in Europe. We are clear that we need

:40:01. > :40:06.and inclusive political solution to this conflict and to get that, we

:40:07. > :40:09.need to see all members using their influence to deliver the -- the

:40:10. > :40:15.transitional Government they have all signed up for. The Government

:40:16. > :40:18.that can provide stability, can represent all Syrians and that we in

:40:19. > :40:24.the international Committee can work to defeating Daesh.

:40:25. > :40:30.Does hae gree that for the threat of June 1 deadline to be credible,

:40:31. > :40:36.World Food Programme planes need to be protected by member states or we

:40:37. > :40:41.need to do the drops ourselves? Has operational planning begun from dive

:40:42. > :40:44.ID and the Ministry of Defence to enable the drops to proceed? The

:40:45. > :40:49.plan is that the drops will be made by the World Food Programme using

:40:50. > :40:56.contracted civilian aircraft. The World Food Programme is already

:40:57. > :41:01.making food air drops into the isolated city in the east of Syria,

:41:02. > :41:05.and it has done so successfully without loss to those aircraft.

:41:06. > :41:09.Clearly there are operational aspects to this, which the members

:41:10. > :41:15.of the ISSG, particularly the Americans and the Russians are now

:41:16. > :41:22.working through. We will seek undertakings from the regime. It is

:41:23. > :41:27.also the case that we know that the Russians have let us say significant

:41:28. > :41:32.influence of the operation over the regime's air defence system. We

:41:33. > :41:36.expect all members of the ISSG to do everything in their power to ensure

:41:37. > :41:40.those drops are successful and carried out without undue risk to

:41:41. > :41:48.the aircrew undertaking them. I will in a moment, I will give way to the

:41:49. > :41:52.honourable gentleman. He'll be aware that the Idomeni camp has been

:41:53. > :41:57.closed. Is he aware of where those refugees are going to be placed as

:41:58. > :42:02.an alternative? And are there UK officials on the ground to assist

:42:03. > :42:07.with the refugees? I can't answer the honourable gentleman's question

:42:08. > :42:12.but I can tell him that the UNHCR is heavily engaged in this action and

:42:13. > :42:16.trying to ensure that the people involved, the people affected are

:42:17. > :42:23.properly cared for throughout and relocated in accommodation, which is

:42:24. > :42:27.at least as secure and as adequate as the accommodation that they're in

:42:28. > :42:34.at present. I give way to my honourable friend. What assessment

:42:35. > :42:37.has my right honourable friend make, he's said many times, that President

:42:38. > :42:41.Putin is one of the few people in the world who can do a lot in this

:42:42. > :42:46.situation - with the attacks yesterday on some of the Assad

:42:47. > :42:49.strong hold areas, not touched before, what about Russia's

:42:50. > :42:55.involvement moving forward and looking at a new dimension, it is

:42:56. > :42:59.quite close to some Russian bases? My honourable friend is absolutely

:43:00. > :43:03.right. The Russians will be making constant calculation about how to

:43:04. > :43:07.extract maximum leverage from their involvement in Syria while

:43:08. > :43:12.minimising their exposure. I suspect that some in the Russian high

:43:13. > :43:15.command and in the Kremlin will have been deeply uncomfortable about the

:43:16. > :43:19.fact that yesterday these Daesh attacks were launched in areas

:43:20. > :43:28.previously thought to be under rock solid regime control and very close

:43:29. > :43:34.to Russian military facilities. It does change theical Clarence House.

:43:35. > :43:39.-- the calculus. It adds to the weight that we need to work together

:43:40. > :43:43.to get a successful transition in Syria to a government that is

:43:44. > :43:50.supported by all Syrians and then work together with that government

:43:51. > :43:53.to defeat the evil that is Daesh. Madam Deputy Speaker, progress to

:43:54. > :43:59.our objective of defeating Daesh will only be possible if the barrel

:44:00. > :44:02.bombings end, if the cessation of hostilities is respected, if

:44:03. > :44:06.humanitarian access to besieged communities is granted and if all

:44:07. > :44:12.sides are prepared to negotiate seriously to achieve political

:44:13. > :44:17.transition. So much for Syria. In Iraq, we will continue to continue

:44:18. > :44:23.to support the efforts of the prime minister there to sear his country,

:44:24. > :44:28.and to deliver the political and economic reform they need. National

:44:29. > :44:31.reconciliation, security, stabilisation of liberated areas

:44:32. > :44:38.from Daesh and the provision of jobs and basic services. We've always

:44:39. > :44:44.said that winning the fight against Daesh would take time. But we have

:44:45. > :44:49.no doubt of our ultimate success in Iraq, in Syria and indeed in Libya.

:44:50. > :44:56.However, winning the hearts and minds of tens of millions of young,

:44:57. > :45:02.potentially vulnerable Muslims who see extremism as a credible response

:45:03. > :45:07.to the lack of opportunity many of them face will be a longer-term

:45:08. > :45:10.challenge for us. I'm grateful to the Foreign Secretary in giving way.

:45:11. > :45:16.Of course, I think everyone agrees here one has to defeat violent and

:45:17. > :45:20.nonviolent extremism. In relation to the extremism Bill in the Queen's

:45:21. > :45:24.speech, can the Foreign Secretary clarify how the Bill will define

:45:25. > :45:27.when an individual has crossed the threshold in relation to what is

:45:28. > :45:30.acceptable and what is not acceptable, so that communities and

:45:31. > :45:33.enforcement agencies know when to take action? And will there be full

:45:34. > :45:37.consultation with all faith communities on this matter in My

:45:38. > :45:42.honourable friend, of course, has hit on a crucial point, that the

:45:43. > :45:46.boundary line between acceptable and non-acceptable behaviour is a fine

:45:47. > :45:52.one and it's one fraught with dangers. It's a minefield area. My

:45:53. > :45:56.right honourable friend, the Home Secretary intends to put forward

:45:57. > :46:00.some of the Government's thoughts on this and consult extensively before

:46:01. > :46:05.legislation is introduced. I hope that re-assures my honourable

:46:06. > :46:09.friend. I give way. I agree with much of what he's said on the

:46:10. > :46:13.complexity of the situation in Syria, Iraq and Libya. When we have

:46:14. > :46:16.a complex set of humanitarian, terrorist circumstances, lots of

:46:17. > :46:20.different things, we have to act in concert across all areas of

:46:21. > :46:24.international operation. Let me turn briefly to the issue of Yemen. We

:46:25. > :46:29.discussed it in the House today, extremely complex situation with

:46:30. > :46:35.huge humanitarian needs, where we were involved, whether we like it or

:46:36. > :46:38.not, in whatever capacity, either directly or through our relationship

:46:39. > :46:44.with Saudi Arabia, it is crucial that we act in concert across those

:46:45. > :46:53.areas of international policy? Will' grow to an independent assessment

:46:54. > :46:57.about the use of cluster munitions that might undermine our place in

:46:58. > :47:02.that conflict? In relation to the specific point at the end, there's a

:47:03. > :47:05.specific allegation that's been made that British-made cluster munitions

:47:06. > :47:11.that will have been made and delivered probably 30 years ago, may

:47:12. > :47:17.have been used. We don't believe that is the case. The MoD and he

:47:18. > :47:22.will have heard the Defence Minister say this today, the MoD is carrying

:47:23. > :47:27.out an urgent investigation into these allegations. We'll look at the

:47:28. > :47:32.evidence. We'll then decide how to move forward. We have a high level

:47:33. > :47:37.of confidence that British-made cluster munitions have not been used

:47:38. > :47:42.in this conflict. Of course, we must look at these allegation that has

:47:43. > :47:49.been made, at any evidence that is presented in support of it and

:47:50. > :47:54.respond appropriately. He's just mentioned Libya, where with

:47:55. > :47:58.hindsight it's clear after the fall of Gaddafi we didn't give enough

:47:59. > :48:02.support to the government we then recognised and the place has

:48:03. > :48:07.collapsed into anarchy and is a possible base for Isis. Secretary of

:48:08. > :48:11.State for defence said that we were offering security assistance to the

:48:12. > :48:15.government we now recognise, if and when they request it. Can he tell me

:48:16. > :48:19.whether his department and other departments of Government are giving

:48:20. > :48:23.every other possible diplomatic and political support to this

:48:24. > :48:29.government, because until they can establish themselves as a real

:48:30. > :48:33.administration, capable of actually delivering services to the public

:48:34. > :48:38.and winning some public support, we run the danger again of having a

:48:39. > :48:42.slightly fictional government in Tripoli and the rest of the country

:48:43. > :48:48.falling prey to anarchy or even to Isis? I'm sure my right honourable

:48:49. > :48:52.friend would readily agree, hindsight is indeed a wonderful

:48:53. > :48:58.thing. My honourable friend has reminded me on the bench that there

:48:59. > :49:05.were elections held in Libya after the fall of Gaddafi. It's since then

:49:06. > :49:08.that things have gone wrong. On the question of support to the prime

:49:09. > :49:13.minister and the government of national accord, yes, we are

:49:14. > :49:18.providing technical, diplomatic, political assistance. He will recall

:49:19. > :49:24.that I visited Tripoli a few weeks ago. We're working very closely with

:49:25. > :49:31.the prime minister there, both bilaterally and through the European

:49:32. > :49:37.Union. The prime minister was at the meeting in Vienna last Monday, in

:49:38. > :49:39.which 20 odd countries got together to discuss how to best support what

:49:40. > :49:44.that government is doing. I'd say this to my right honourable friend,

:49:45. > :49:48.it is a complex situation in Libya, but I think the prime minister there

:49:49. > :49:52.is approaching this in the right way, a bottom-up approach. He's not

:49:53. > :49:56.trying to create a government that can rule Libya in some monolithic

:49:57. > :50:01.fashion, because that's not practical. He's trying to create an

:50:02. > :50:05.umbrella government in which municipalities are empowered to

:50:06. > :50:11.deliver the services and run the structures that people need. We have

:50:12. > :50:19.considerable experience of that approach, including indeed in Syria,

:50:20. > :50:24.working with devolved levels of government in small areas to

:50:25. > :50:27.establish good governance. I suspect that's a more realistic approach

:50:28. > :50:31.than a top-down. I'm happy to give way. I do thank the Secretary of

:50:32. > :50:35.State for giving way. On the issue of Libya, can he confirm whether or

:50:36. > :50:38.not he's had any consultations with the neighbouring country of Algeria?

:50:39. > :50:43.They have great experience of dealing with terrorism. They have

:50:44. > :50:47.had huge problems as a result of the instability in Libya. They could be

:50:48. > :50:49.a huge asset and support to stabilising that neighbouring

:50:50. > :50:56.country. Are those consultations taking place? Yes. I can confirm

:50:57. > :50:59.that to her. I've visited Algeria. My honourable friend has visited

:51:00. > :51:06.aljeerament the Algerians are -- Algeria. The Algerians are playing a

:51:07. > :51:09.significant role. For many years Algeria has taken an isolationist,

:51:10. > :51:12.noninterventionist approach. They are at risk from what is going on in

:51:13. > :51:16.Libya as a neighbouring country. They recognise that. They are

:51:17. > :51:23.engaging with the challenge. We're extremely grateful for the support

:51:24. > :51:27.that Algeria, with its considerable experience of dealing with a major

:51:28. > :51:32.scale insurgency, that they are able to deliver. I'm going to make a

:51:33. > :51:35.little progress, if my honourable friend will allow as he's had one

:51:36. > :51:40.bite of the cherry already. Mr Speaker, while we step up the fight

:51:41. > :51:43.against Daesh and Islamist extremism, the old challenge of

:51:44. > :51:49.state-base add depression has not gone away. To our east, Russia's

:51:50. > :51:53.disregard for international norms, its illegal an ex--ation of Crimea

:51:54. > :51:58.and destabilisation of eastern Ukraine are echoes of an era that

:51:59. > :52:02.frankly, most of us thought had passed with the fall of the Berlin

:52:03. > :52:06.Wall. They represent a clear threat to the stability of the post-Cold

:52:07. > :52:11.War European security order, and more widely, to the rules-based

:52:12. > :52:16.international system on which an open, free trading, liberal

:52:17. > :52:21.democracy like ours depends. As well as violating the sovereign territory

:52:22. > :52:24.of another country and undermining the rules-based system, Russia's

:52:25. > :52:27.actions in Ukraine has led to the loss of more than 9,000 lives and

:52:28. > :52:33.the displacement of up to a million people from their homes.

:52:34. > :52:38.Responsibility for this human misery lies squarely at the door of the

:52:39. > :52:44.Kremlin, a direct result of a deliberate policy that seeks to deny

:52:45. > :52:49.the right of independent, former Soviet Republics to determine their

:52:50. > :52:53.own economic and political destiny. This Government remains clear that

:52:54. > :52:58.Russia must be held to account for its actions. We will work through

:52:59. > :53:03.the EU to keep up the economic pressure with hard-hitting and

:53:04. > :53:07.carefully-calibrated sanctions. Those sanctions must remain in place

:53:08. > :53:16.until such time as Russia delivers on the pledges it made at Minsk. We

:53:17. > :53:19.will continue to provide nonlethal support and training to the

:53:20. > :53:24.Ukrainian armed forces and building on British military units rotating

:53:25. > :53:29.through Poland and the Baltic states, at the Nato summit in June

:53:30. > :53:34.we will announce further measures to re-assure eastern allies in the face

:53:35. > :53:38.of this continuing aggression. At the same time, Madam Deputy Speaker,

:53:39. > :53:43.we will engage with Russia, where it is clearly in our national interest

:53:44. > :53:48.to do so. Russia, along with Iran, is one of the two countries which

:53:49. > :53:53.have real influence on the Syrian regime and as members of the ISSG

:53:54. > :53:57.they have the principal responsibility for telling Assad it

:53:58. > :54:02.is time to go. We will continue to work with Russia on Syria and at the

:54:03. > :54:05.UN. We will continue to collaborate with them on counter-terrorism where

:54:06. > :54:12.British lives are potentially at risk. But it will not be business as

:54:13. > :54:17.usual. All nations must know that we cannot and will not look the other

:54:18. > :54:22.way while the rules-based system is repeatedly violated. We look

:54:23. > :54:28.forward, Madam Deputy Speaker, to the time when Russia will rejoin the

:54:29. > :54:33.community of nations as a partner in upholding the international rules.

:54:34. > :54:40.But our eyes are wide-open and we know that may be a long time coming.

:54:41. > :54:50.As we said in the 2010 STS Star and again in 2015, Britain's National

:54:51. > :54:55.security is indivisible from our economic security. We cannot keep

:54:56. > :54:59.people safe we do not have a strong economy and vice versa. As we

:55:00. > :55:03.continue to deal with the economic legacy we have inherited, bringing

:55:04. > :55:06.down the deficit and restoring sustainable growth to the economy,

:55:07. > :55:11.we have been strengthening our diplomatic muscle in emerging

:55:12. > :55:17.economies to grow trade and to support jobs here at home. Those

:55:18. > :55:22.efforts are paying off. The state visit of China's president last year

:55:23. > :55:27.generated some ?40 billion of commercial deals, creating more than

:55:28. > :55:36.5000 permanent jobs in this country. ?40 million. The UK and Indian

:55:37. > :55:43.businesses agreed deals worth ?9 billion. In what investment from

:55:44. > :55:48.India in 2014-15 created more than 7000 new jobs and safeguarded more

:55:49. > :55:53.than 1500 other jobs. And since they deal with the Republic of Korea in

:55:54. > :55:59.2011, the value of UK exports to Korea has more than doubled. While

:56:00. > :56:05.we seek to grow our links with the world's emerging economies, our

:56:06. > :56:09.trade and investment relationship with the European Union will always

:56:10. > :56:16.be central to our economic success story. As the House knows, the

:56:17. > :56:20.Government's clear view of Britain's continued prosperity is best served

:56:21. > :56:26.by remaining a leading member of the reform European Union. It is a

:56:27. > :56:31.membership that puts us as the number two economic power inside the

:56:32. > :56:36.world's single -- largest single market with the seat at the

:56:37. > :56:42.decision-making table. A market of 500 million consumers with one

:56:43. > :56:47.quarter of the world's GDP. A market which purchases 44% of Britain's

:56:48. > :56:54.exports. There is a world of difference between being inside such

:56:55. > :56:59.a market with tariff free access as of right, and being outside of it,

:57:00. > :57:04.scrabbling for a deal. Between making the rules of the market to

:57:05. > :57:10.protect our interests and being governed by rules designed for the

:57:11. > :57:13.benefit and advantage of others. It is a membership that safeguards the

:57:14. > :57:18.pound and the Bank of England and with the deal that the Prime

:57:19. > :57:22.Minister negotiated in it is a membership that keeps us out of the

:57:23. > :57:28.Schengen agreement, outside closer union and limits the access of

:57:29. > :57:36.migrants to our welfare system. The best of both worlds. I am happy to

:57:37. > :57:41.give way. Thank you. He and I are good friends but we disagree on this

:57:42. > :57:46.matter. Will the Foreign Secretary confirmed that under this much

:57:47. > :57:50.wanted reform deal which adds up to a hill of beans that the premise has

:57:51. > :57:54.negotiated, if the United Kingdom where to introduce measures,

:57:55. > :58:00.financial measures that we believe to be in the city -- interest of the

:58:01. > :58:07.City of London and those measures were deemed by the EU zone that we

:58:08. > :58:10.would be obliged to change our measures we would have to go to the

:58:11. > :58:13.European Court of Justice who would arbitrate and we know that the

:58:14. > :58:23.European Court of Justice always finds in the favour of the Aquila

:58:24. > :58:28.commune attack. We do not know that they always find in favour of the

:58:29. > :58:33.community. We have done well when we have been challenged in the European

:58:34. > :58:38.Court of Justice. For example, when the European Central Bank

:58:39. > :58:42.disgracefully tried to prevent Euro denominated financial instruments

:58:43. > :58:46.being cleared in the City of London. We went to the European Court of

:58:47. > :58:51.Justice and we won the case with a clear declaration that what the ECB

:58:52. > :58:54.was proposing to do was illegal. I do not access to the premise of my

:58:55. > :59:05.honourable friend's question. I give way. Is it not the case that the

:59:06. > :59:11.very essence of the Prime Minister's deal in Brussels, to which two

:59:12. > :59:14.little attention has been paid, it provides a very firm guarantee that

:59:15. > :59:19.the United Kingdom's position outside of the Eurozone would not be

:59:20. > :59:23.used to jeopardise its position within the single market and that is

:59:24. > :59:27.a very important safeguard and one in the context of the European Court

:59:28. > :59:34.of Justice, and any arbitration it has to carried out, it has to be

:59:35. > :59:37.carried -- taken into account and it has binding force? My honourable

:59:38. > :59:41.friend is correct. Those on the other side of the argument have

:59:42. > :59:45.tried to argue that this agreement did not have binding force in

:59:46. > :59:51.international law, only eventually to have to concede that it did. My

:59:52. > :59:56.honourable friend is right, the deal that the Prime Minister negotiated

:59:57. > :00:01.is substantive and if there is a vote to being in the European Union

:00:02. > :00:04.on June the 23rd, we will move ahead with the implementation of those

:00:05. > :00:09.measures that will give Britain not only the advantages we already have,

:00:10. > :00:14.the membership of the 500 million consumer strong marketplace but the

:00:15. > :00:18.additional benefits that that deal brings. I can tell the House from my

:00:19. > :00:23.own experience, meeting with my colleagues from across the European

:00:24. > :00:27.Union, whatever people in this House or country think, our colleagues in

:00:28. > :00:31.Europe can not believe the deal that we have negotiated. Cannot believe

:00:32. > :00:37.how we have been able to negotiate the best of both worlds being in the

:00:38. > :00:42.European Union and also being able to opt out of all of the measures we

:00:43. > :00:49.do not find suit our particular needs. Thank you for giving way.

:00:50. > :00:53.Talking about the benefits for exporters, that also includes the

:00:54. > :00:57.steel industry. I have the steel industry in my constituency and

:00:58. > :01:00.across South Wales. Thousands of steelworkers will march through

:01:01. > :01:04.Parliament to raise their concerns tomorrow about what the Government

:01:05. > :01:09.will do for the industry. The very worst thing we can do for the steel

:01:10. > :01:13.industry is to pull out and was the possibility of exporting tariff free

:01:14. > :01:19.to the rest of Europe. It goes further than that. In the steel

:01:20. > :01:25.industry, worldwide, we are facing a crisis. We cannot wish it away. We

:01:26. > :01:29.cannot create more demand or make it disappear the excess capacity. We

:01:30. > :01:33.are always better and more effective in addressing these problems if we

:01:34. > :01:38.do so collectively and working across the European Union is the

:01:39. > :01:44.best week in which to tackle what is a very, very difficult problem. It

:01:45. > :01:49.is also the case, Madam Deputy Speaker, that Britain in particular

:01:50. > :01:56.will be further disproportionate, some of my colleagues would see

:01:57. > :02:03.under benefits as the EU develops the single market in services in

:02:04. > :02:06.digital, energy and capital. All of these single market which are

:02:07. > :02:11.relatively immature in the European Union, all of these are areas in

:02:12. > :02:16.which the UK is the leading economy in Europe. The commitments that we

:02:17. > :02:21.have obtained to moving forward rapidly with the further development

:02:22. > :02:23.of the single markets will disproportionately benefit this

:02:24. > :02:28.country and disproportionately create jobs and growth in the UK

:02:29. > :02:35.after we have made our decision on June the 23rd. We can only reap

:02:36. > :02:39.these benefits, Madam Deputy Speaker, with the renewed democratic

:02:40. > :02:46.mandate from the British people. For four decades they have been denied

:02:47. > :02:50.that. Frankly, for the election of a Conservative Government, they would

:02:51. > :02:54.not be getting the same now. I welcome the debate. I welcome the

:02:55. > :02:58.focus it has brought, forcing all of us to think hard about the issues

:02:59. > :03:04.and the consequences now there is a real decision to be made. I hope

:03:05. > :03:09.that in this House we can all agree two things, that on June the 24th

:03:10. > :03:13.the British people must have your say and that the politicians must

:03:14. > :03:22.respect the decision, whatever it is. We cannot separate our security

:03:23. > :03:26.and prosperity from the value system on which they are grounded.

:03:27. > :03:30.Countless examples around the world have demonstrated through history

:03:31. > :03:34.where political competition, rule of law, respect for human rights,

:03:35. > :03:41.freedom of speech and tolerance of difference are lacking. Social,

:03:42. > :03:48.economic and political stability will be absent at worst. We are

:03:49. > :03:53.societies respond for the greater rule of law, respect individual

:03:54. > :04:01.rights and freedoms, innovation and entrepreneurial -- being an

:04:02. > :04:05.entrepreneur flourishes. In the 21st century, we cannot expect be able to

:04:06. > :04:12.simply impose a one size fits all system across the world. Those days

:04:13. > :04:16.are well and truly over. As our own example has shown, ideas of freedom,

:04:17. > :04:22.democracy and the rule of law need time to take a brick. And in the

:04:23. > :04:25.form they take will depend on where a nation is on its development

:04:26. > :04:33.pathway and in its culture and traditions. -- need time to take

:04:34. > :04:38.root. We can support countries as they move towards respect for these

:04:39. > :04:44.essential values. It is the direction of travel that matters. My

:04:45. > :04:48.view is clear, we're a nation's political, social, economic and

:04:49. > :04:52.judicial development is taking it in the right direction, towards better

:04:53. > :04:56.Government, stronger rule of law and respect for human rights, we should

:04:57. > :05:02.work with it and supporters. With it is taking it away from those goals,

:05:03. > :05:05.we will call it out as we have done recently in South Sudan and in

:05:06. > :05:10.Burundi. Most importantly, we are countries fall short, we are

:05:11. > :05:15.committed to a pragmatic response that seeks to make a difference

:05:16. > :05:20.rather than disengagement, posturing and empty rhetoric. We have

:05:21. > :05:26.doubled... We have doubled the FCO funding for human rights projects to

:05:27. > :05:32.?10 million, putting our money where our mouth is. More importantly, by

:05:33. > :05:36.mainstreaming our human rights work, we have hard-wired into everything

:05:37. > :05:41.we do. We have made it an integral part of the two-day diplomacy. Not a

:05:42. > :05:47.boat on optional extra. I firmly believe that our approach is

:05:48. > :05:52.yielding practical dividends. Thank you for giving way. Would he take

:05:53. > :05:58.this opportunity to disavow the comment made by his Secretary at the

:05:59. > :06:05.Foreign Office, Sir Simon Madonna, who said that human rights are not a

:06:06. > :06:09.priority for the UK Government? He has explained what he was trying to

:06:10. > :06:14.convey was that we are mainstreaming. They do not have a

:06:15. > :06:18.separate category any more. We have mainstreamed human rights into our

:06:19. > :06:22.consular, political and our mainstream diplomatic work. By doing

:06:23. > :06:32.so, we embedded in a way that is delivering results through all of

:06:33. > :06:36.our agenda. Does he agree with me that it is a bit rich for British

:06:37. > :06:40.diplomats and politicians to travel the globe lecturing others that

:06:41. > :06:43.human rights when we are about to repeal our own Human Rights Act and

:06:44. > :06:49.some members of the Government wish to withdraw from the European

:06:50. > :06:55.Convention on human rights question mark I wouldn't. Throughout the

:06:56. > :06:59.world. Britain is recognised as an important champion of human rights

:07:00. > :07:04.and a country in which many of the rights that we across the world take

:07:05. > :07:09.for granted today originated. I hope we can have a constructive debate

:07:10. > :07:16.about these issues. Before I conclude, I want to take head-on the

:07:17. > :07:21.notion that the Government is putting economic and trade interests

:07:22. > :07:27.before human rights. Yes, we are serious about increasing our

:07:28. > :07:32.global... To secure more jobs for the British people but that does

:07:33. > :07:41.not, the expense of our values. The deeper and broader relationships

:07:42. > :07:44.with other countries, the deeper they become, the greater our

:07:45. > :07:49.influence and easier it is to have Frank conversations we have on

:07:50. > :07:55.issues that we disagree. Building relationships gives influence and

:07:56. > :08:00.leveraged. It is not always visible and progress takes place behind the

:08:01. > :08:05.scenes. We should be ruthlessly focused on what works and on the

:08:06. > :08:09.occasions where Private influence feels, we can and do speak out

:08:10. > :08:14.publicly. Ultimately, I feel the best way we can achieve the positive

:08:15. > :08:16.changes we want to see on human rights is to engage constructively

:08:17. > :08:22.as part of a comprehensive relationship. Is the Foreign

:08:23. > :08:28.Secretary seriously telling us how is that right now, her relationship

:08:29. > :08:34.with Saudi Arabia is the case of not putting human rights secondary to

:08:35. > :08:37.economic interest? Mr Speaker, I hope that the right honourable

:08:38. > :08:43.gentleman is around in five years' time, ten years' time, 15 years'

:08:44. > :08:48.time so we can look back from that vantage point on what is happening

:08:49. > :08:55.now. Something very significant is happening in Saudi Arabia. The

:08:56. > :09:00.project that the plan, vision 2030, that has been published by the

:09:01. > :09:03.Deputy Crown Prince sets out the trajectory of Fort Saudi Arabia's

:09:04. > :09:11.development which is inevitably going to change that country. It is

:09:12. > :09:16.far more than an economic plan. If you want to influence the direction

:09:17. > :09:20.of Saudi Arabia's development, I would strongly advise that we engage

:09:21. > :09:25.with that project and that we help to shape it rather than turning our

:09:26. > :09:30.backs on that country as many have suggested.

:09:31. > :09:36.We now have decades and decades of experience that early intervention

:09:37. > :09:40.to prevent human rights abuses and mass atrocities works. Does he feel

:09:41. > :09:44.that his department and indeed the whole of Government would benefit

:09:45. > :09:48.from a mass atrocity prevention lens being focussed on all policy, so

:09:49. > :09:55.that we intervene early and fast to prevent escalation? What the

:09:56. > :10:00.honourable lady says is persuasive, but I'm just trying to think how we

:10:01. > :10:04.would operationalise that in a way that's different from what we're

:10:05. > :10:08.already doing. That's what we thought we were doing in Syria.

:10:09. > :10:13.Unfortunately, we haven't succeeded in preventing the atrocities that

:10:14. > :10:17.are going on in Syria. But let me consider what the honourable lady

:10:18. > :10:22.has said and perhaps I can write to her on that issue. Madam Deputy

:10:23. > :10:26.Speaker, under this Government the UK is making a decisive contribution

:10:27. > :10:30.to the global agenda. We are leading reform in the European Union and if

:10:31. > :10:34.the British people give their consent, we will continue to drive

:10:35. > :10:38.that reform in the future. We're standing up to Russian aggression,

:10:39. > :10:42.defending the rules based international system that Russia

:10:43. > :10:46.seeks to undermine and providing military re-assurance to our eastern

:10:47. > :10:50.allies who feel so threatened by Russia's actions. We're supporting

:10:51. > :10:55.human rights around the world, making it a core part of every

:10:56. > :10:59.diplomat's work, strengthening the values based rule of law system upon

:11:00. > :11:05.which our prosperity, our security and our freedoms depend. In an ever

:11:06. > :11:11.more complex and dangerous world, our diplomats, our military, our

:11:12. > :11:16.intelligence and Security Services, our police, our border force and

:11:17. > :11:21.many others work tirelessly day in, day out to keep us safe. Their

:11:22. > :11:26.achievements often go unsung. The risks they take often go unnoticed.

:11:27. > :11:31.So I want to end by thanking them on behalf of the whole House and the

:11:32. > :11:34.British people for the work they do and the remarkable results they

:11:35. > :11:40.deliver. THE SPEAKER: Hilary Benn. Thank you

:11:41. > :11:44.very much indeed Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I begin where the

:11:45. > :11:49.Foreign Secretary ended and join him in expressing the thanks of this

:11:50. > :11:52.side of the House to our diplomats for the extraordinary service they

:11:53. > :12:00.give our country and for the work that they do around the globe. We

:12:01. > :12:07.are all very proud of them indeed. I think probably it's true to say

:12:08. > :12:10.every single member in this chamber today, this gracious speech debate,

:12:11. > :12:14.in one respect, has a significance unmatched by any of its

:12:15. > :12:18.predecessors, that is because it takes place on the eve of the

:12:19. > :12:23.referendum decision that our nation will take on the 23 June, a decision

:12:24. > :12:29.yes, about our membership of the European Union, but a decision about

:12:30. > :12:35.something much, much more fundamental even than that. We will

:12:36. > :12:39.be deciding what kind of country we are and wish to be in a world that

:12:40. > :12:44.is changing. The Foreign Secretary has set that out clearly in his

:12:45. > :12:51.speech. And will continue to change as this generation gives way to the

:12:52. > :12:55.next. Ours is a remarkable country. We are less than 1% of the world's

:12:56. > :13:01.population and yet its fifth strongest economy. Our long wadge is

:13:02. > :13:06.spoken by one in five people across the globe, granted with varying

:13:07. > :13:09.degrees of fluency. We are among the world's leaders in science, the

:13:10. > :13:16.arts, literature and Nobel Prizes and for a small island nation, off

:13:17. > :13:20.the coast of Europe, we have great influence around the globe. Every

:13:21. > :13:26.one of these is a reason why the decision we make will be watched

:13:27. > :13:31.closely by friends and others alike, not least because our future as a

:13:32. > :13:38.nation is now more intertwined with the lives and fats of others than it

:13:39. > :13:48.has -- fates of others than ever before. An event can be seen almost

:13:49. > :13:54.instantaneously on a mobile phone. Global flows of goods and services,

:13:55. > :14:00.information, finance, ideas, people are expanding and this world offers

:14:01. > :14:06.us great opportunity but it presents us with challenges too. It demands

:14:07. > :14:10.that we look beyond these shores if we are to ensure that Britain

:14:11. > :14:16.continues to be safe and successful. Because the national interest in

:14:17. > :14:20.this era is best served by an international approach playing a

:14:21. > :14:24.full part in global institutions, not walking away from them,

:14:25. > :14:28.defending human rights and our values, both at home and abroad. And

:14:29. > :14:36.I think it is fair to say that there is a struggle going on in Europe

:14:37. > :14:45.now, as some politics moves to the extremes, for the soul of the

:14:46. > :14:49.continent. In that context, can I congratulate the election victory

:14:50. > :14:56.for the new president of Austria. But we see how close that result

:14:57. > :15:00.was. Madam Deputy Speaker, in this referendum there has been much

:15:01. > :15:06.debate about the facts. Give us the facts, the people ask. I will give

:15:07. > :15:09.way, of course. I'm very grateful. Isn't one of the facts that might

:15:10. > :15:13.emerge from the referendum is that if the European Union is to achieve

:15:14. > :15:19.more than 55% support in Scotland, it will show that the European Union

:15:20. > :15:22.is more popular amongst Scott than the British -- Scots than the

:15:23. > :15:25.British in the United Kingdom? I look forward to the contribution of

:15:26. > :15:32.voters in Scotland to ensure that we remain in the European Union. I

:15:33. > :15:37.think it would be nice to see a more vigorous campaign from the SNP in

:15:38. > :15:43.support of a Remain vote. But that is in the hands of the members who

:15:44. > :15:48.are sitting over there. The first facts, Madam Deputy Speaker, in this

:15:49. > :15:54.referendum is the fact of our membership and what it has brought -

:15:55. > :16:02.jobs, growth and investment, rights for workers and consume tears are

:16:03. > :16:05.guaranteed from -- consumers that are guaranteed, paid holiday,

:16:06. > :16:09.improved maternity and paternity leave, fairer deal for agency and

:16:10. > :16:15.temporary workers all protected by the EU. Environmental protection and

:16:16. > :16:22.progress from cleaner air to cleeber -- cleaner beaches, to safeguarding

:16:23. > :16:26.of precious habitats to tackling climate change Europe has worked

:16:27. > :16:30.together to make a difference. We have reacted to the largest single

:16:31. > :16:36.market in the world to which we sell 44% of our exports and through our

:16:37. > :16:42.membership to 53 other trade deals with other countries' markets. That

:16:43. > :16:44.shows how Europe's collective negotiating strength achiefs

:16:45. > :16:48.stronger trade -- achiefs stronger trade with the rest of the world

:16:49. > :16:52.that we could achieve alone. Domestic security, whether the

:16:53. > :16:59.threat from terrorism or organised crime, we are made safer by working

:17:00. > :17:04.with our allies, sharing information and bringing criminals to justice

:17:05. > :17:08.through the European arrest warrant. National security - dealing with

:17:09. > :17:12.climate change, where Europe has shown Great Leadership. The Iran

:17:13. > :17:14.nuclear deal, led by the European Union, standing up to Russian

:17:15. > :17:18.aggression in the Ukraine. Now the sanctions that the Foreign Secretary

:17:19. > :17:21.referred to are clearly biting on the Russian economy. I'm sure the

:17:22. > :17:28.whole House will support him in what he said earlier about the renewal of

:17:29. > :17:32.those sanctions in July, until such time as the Minsk agreement is fully

:17:33. > :17:39.observed by Russia. We should in this debate, as well as thanking our

:17:40. > :17:41.diplomats, thank the police, the Security Services and our armed

:17:42. > :17:46.forces for their commitment and sacrifice in order to keep us safe.

:17:47. > :17:52.It is important that in the legislation promised in the speech,

:17:53. > :17:57.we update the law on investigatory powers tone able them to go on doing

:17:58. > :18:01.so effectively. On this side we will hold the Government to account to

:18:02. > :18:07.ensure that will strong safeguards, the right balance is struck between

:18:08. > :18:13.security and privacy. Now all this shows that the EU gives us influence

:18:14. > :18:21.in the world and a louder voice. It is the very opposite of the picture

:18:22. > :18:27.painted by the Leave campaign of poor old Britain, put upon, unable

:18:28. > :18:32.to cope, for those who remember the ads, the serve-stone weakling who is

:18:33. > :18:39.having sand kicked in its face by the other member states. What

:18:40. > :18:45.nonsense. What lack of faith in our abilities as a nation. The truth is,

:18:46. > :18:50.we are a strong and influential member state - certainly I will -

:18:51. > :18:54.that is how other EU member states see us. It is time the Leave

:18:55. > :19:03.campaign stop trying to sell us short. I will give way. I thought

:19:04. > :19:06.the first part of the right honourable gentleman's speech is an

:19:07. > :19:11.excellent case. Now he's putting into territory where he's putting up

:19:12. > :19:14.aunt Sallies. Two internationalisms competing here, one with a global

:19:15. > :19:19.view of the world and one with internationalism within the European

:19:20. > :19:22.Union. Both perfectly respectable and both have internationalism

:19:23. > :19:26.sitting under them. I hope he can stay on making a positive case for

:19:27. > :19:30.his side of the argument rather than putting up aunt Sallies to attack,

:19:31. > :19:33.which aren't true. I hope the honourable gentleman will

:19:34. > :19:37.acknowledge that I am making a positive case, but I can see that

:19:38. > :19:41.the charge I just levelled at the Leave campaign has wounded precisely

:19:42. > :19:45.because that is what they argue. That somehow Britain cannot cope

:19:46. > :19:49.with being in the European Union, that we can't manage the place we

:19:50. > :19:55.have in that institution. I also say to the honourable gentleman, it is a

:19:56. > :19:58.fallacy to suggest that somehow in this referendum we are faced with a

:19:59. > :20:01.choice between the one and the other. We hear it in the debate

:20:02. > :20:08.about trade. People say we should trade with other parts of the world.

:20:09. > :20:11.Our trade with China has doubled since 2010. Have we been stopped

:20:12. > :20:15.trading with China because we're part of the European Union? Of

:20:16. > :20:19.course we haven't. We can do both. Britain's traditions suggest that

:20:20. > :20:23.not only are we capable of doing it, but we will benefit from doing both.

:20:24. > :20:29.I will give way to the honourable gentleman. I can't help but observe

:20:30. > :20:34.that actually aunt allies are being -- Sallies are being created here.

:20:35. > :20:38.The leave camp aren't being suggested that we're being kicked

:20:39. > :20:43.about, that's the view that the right honourable gentleman puts to

:20:44. > :20:47.the Leave camp. We suggest that there's a brighter future outside

:20:48. > :20:50.the EU. There's a fundamental difference in that. We're the fifth

:20:51. > :20:55.largest economy in the world, of course we stand up for ourselves. We

:20:56. > :20:59.have the world's most prominent language and so forth. It's the fact

:21:00. > :21:04.that there's a brighter future outside, illustrated bit fact that

:21:05. > :21:07.at the moment we are forbidden to negotiating trade deals with

:21:08. > :21:11.countries unless they're routed through the EU. If we came out, we

:21:12. > :21:15.could do that and that would lead to greater prosperity. I say to the

:21:16. > :21:20.honourable gentleman, first of all, that damaging our economy and

:21:21. > :21:25.people's job prospects is not my idea of a brighter future and

:21:26. > :21:29.secondly, I say to him, that he will forgive me if I don't follow him

:21:30. > :21:33.down the Canadian road, when we know it has taken Canada seven years thus

:21:34. > :21:37.far to negotiate its own trade deal with the European Union. I give way

:21:38. > :21:41.to the honourable gentleman. I am most grateful to the Shadow Foreign

:21:42. > :21:45.Secretary for giving way. As a fellow Leeds MP and honourable

:21:46. > :21:50.friend on the frontbench, we will all recognise how important a role

:21:51. > :21:53.the university of Leeds plays in our city in terms of employment and

:21:54. > :21:57.investment. The vote leave campaign are going round saying all the money

:21:58. > :22:03.we contribute to the EU will go into the NHS. That's their policy. Is the

:22:04. > :22:07.right honourable gentleman not concerned that means that there

:22:08. > :22:10.simply won't be the investment in our higher education research which

:22:11. > :22:13.comes from Europe and therefore, either they don't care or either

:22:14. > :22:16.it's a lie? The honourable gentleman points to one of many

:22:17. > :22:22.inconsistencies in the arguments that the Leave campaign is

:22:23. > :22:26.advancing. It's noticeable, Madam Deputy Speaker, every single

:22:27. > :22:31.university in the country has spoken out about the importance for them,

:22:32. > :22:35.their research, the flow of ideas across Europe, never mind the world,

:22:36. > :22:39.and the benefits and the money they gain because we have world-class

:22:40. > :22:45.universities. We should listen to what they and every single survey of

:22:46. > :22:49.industry opinion that has been done and all of the other warnings and

:22:50. > :22:52.assessments undertaken and it's not good enough for the Leave campaign

:22:53. > :22:56.every time a view is expressed counter to their argument, they wave

:22:57. > :23:00.their hands and say, "Well, they would say that, wouldn't they? I

:23:01. > :23:07.will give way. Then I will make more progress I thank him for giving way.

:23:08. > :23:11.Does he agree with me that when the Brexiters campaign on the issue of

:23:12. > :23:19.trade, they should be aware of the fact that India invests more in the

:23:20. > :23:23.UK than all other EU kin triput together currently and the UK

:23:24. > :23:26.invests more in India than any other G20 country? The honourable

:23:27. > :23:30.gentleman is indeed right. He gives me the opportunity to add to that

:23:31. > :23:36.point. We are the most successful country in the European Union. More

:23:37. > :23:38.successful than Germany, more than France in attracting foreign direct

:23:39. > :23:41.investment. There's a number of reasons for that, some of which I

:23:42. > :23:43.referred to at the beginning of my speech that the chair of the Select

:23:44. > :23:51.Committee welcomed, but there's no doubt that one of those reasons is

:23:52. > :23:57.because we are part of a single market of 500 million people. I will

:23:58. > :24:04.give way to my honourable friend. He mentioned the Free Trade Agreement.

:24:05. > :24:08.Isn't it a fact that since the European Union signed the Free Trade

:24:09. > :24:12.Agreement with South Korea, the UK trade with Korea has massively

:24:13. > :24:16.increased and of course, we also have massive Korean investment in

:24:17. > :24:21.this country? That is indeed the case. It shows that we can have the

:24:22. > :24:24.best of both worlds because we gaining from the trade deals that

:24:25. > :24:29.the European Union has negotiated, at the same time as increasing our

:24:30. > :24:30.trade with other countries with whom Europe does not currently have a

:24:31. > :24:38.trade deal. Very grate grateful to my honourable

:24:39. > :24:41.friend for giving way. Is he significant of the significant

:24:42. > :24:49.investment in the north-east of England in the auto trade, at Elring

:24:50. > :24:54.Clinger, Middlesbrough, all part of the supply chain. If we have to wait

:24:55. > :24:58.seven years for a deal to be reached, what does he think are the

:24:59. > :25:04.prospects for the automotive industry to invest in my region. He

:25:05. > :25:07.makes a powerful point and the north-east along with Wales

:25:08. > :25:11.understands almost better than any part of the country how important

:25:12. > :25:14.membership of the European Union is to the economic prospects of the

:25:15. > :25:18.communities and the families that depend on the jobs that come from

:25:19. > :25:22.that investment, not the least because the north-east exports are

:25:23. > :25:26.higher proportion of what it produces to Europe than to other

:25:27. > :25:29.parts of the world. Oh, heavens. I'm going to give way to the two other

:25:30. > :25:33.honourable members who caught my eye, then I am, if the House will

:25:34. > :25:37.forgive me, make a bit more progress. Trade in the economy is

:25:38. > :25:40.very important. He's right to say that but actually, isn't there

:25:41. > :25:45.something more important? Didn't his late great father say that when he

:25:46. > :25:51.looked at the European Union, what he saw was clearly not democratic.

:25:52. > :25:56.Isn't our democracy more fundamental than all of the points he's making

:25:57. > :26:00.today? And shouldn't the sovereign right to govern this country rest in

:26:01. > :26:09.this House and by the British people? Well, I would say to the

:26:10. > :26:15.honourable gentleman that it does. Now, my father and I were in

:26:16. > :26:18.agreement 41 years ago because we both campaigned to leave the common

:26:19. > :26:24.market, but the British people in their wisdom voted to stay. Now, I

:26:25. > :26:30.changed my mind, and my late and dear father didn't. But he taught me

:26:31. > :26:33.many things. One was to stand up for what you believe in and to say what

:26:34. > :26:39.you think, and that's what I'm doing from this dispatch box today, and

:26:40. > :26:43.secondly, and secondly, every single change subsequently relating to our

:26:44. > :26:47.membership of the European Union has been agreed by this House, our

:26:48. > :26:50.democracy, our democracy, and the referendum will give the British

:26:51. > :26:53.people the chance to take this really important decision. I am

:26:54. > :26:57.making my argument as to why on this side of the House we are

:26:58. > :27:01.passionately in support of remaining in the European Union. I give way to

:27:02. > :27:05.the honourable member. He's very generous, and he is absolutely right

:27:06. > :27:08.to make two points today, Madam Deputy Speaker that no-one in my

:27:09. > :27:13.view should be in any doubt about - firstly, trade. It is absolutely

:27:14. > :27:19.critical, and all the countries with which I as a trade envoy deal and

:27:20. > :27:23.all other trade envoys deal are in no doubt we'll do much better with

:27:24. > :27:26.them and as a country by being within the European Union than

:27:27. > :27:29.without. I am also in no doubt that the 53 agreement was the European

:27:30. > :27:34.Union has would take a very, very long time if it could be done at all

:27:35. > :27:37.to replicate, and lastly, Madam Deputy Speaker, on inward

:27:38. > :27:41.investment, I am also in no doubt that there is a wave of foreign

:27:42. > :27:45.investment - direct investment coming here which has been Held up

:27:46. > :27:48.at the moment as a result of uncertainty. I agree with all the

:27:49. > :27:51.points the honourable gentleman has made, particularly the last one

:27:52. > :27:55.because we all know what business hates in some senses more than

:27:56. > :27:58.anything else is uncertainty. At the moment there is great uncertainty

:27:59. > :28:02.about our future in the European Union. We need to end that as

:28:03. > :28:05.quickly as possible, and we need to end it in the right way. Madam

:28:06. > :28:11.Deputy Speaker, greater than all of the benefits which I have tried to

:28:12. > :28:14.describe thus far is for me the most significant contribution that the

:28:15. > :28:20.European idea has made to our lives and that is quite simply 70 years of

:28:21. > :28:25.peace on a continent that had been at war for a century. Anyone - and

:28:26. > :28:29.many members have - who visited those graveyards in France and

:28:30. > :28:35.Belgium understands the significance of that achievement. You only have

:28:36. > :28:41.to walk along the rows of the graves in which the flower of two

:28:42. > :28:45.generations of young Europeans rest, having given their youth and their

:28:46. > :28:49.lives to understand the force of that achievement, and it did not

:28:50. > :28:54.come about by accident. It was the sheer determination and vision of

:28:55. > :28:58.Europe's founders to end this history of slaughter and build

:28:59. > :29:03.something better out of the ashes of a still smouldering Europe that made

:29:04. > :29:06.it happen, and the Shuman Declaration said it all, if the

:29:07. > :29:10.honourable gentleman will bear with me - it resolve toad make a future

:29:11. > :29:17.war not merely unthinkable, but materially impossible, and what they

:29:18. > :29:22.achieved - which was most eloquently described, he's not here today by

:29:23. > :29:26.the honourable member from Sussex in that remarkable speech back in

:29:27. > :29:30.February is peace. It was even peace that has the seal of approval for

:29:31. > :29:36.the honourable member from Uxbridge and South ruse lip who wrote in his

:29:37. > :29:40.book that Europe's securing of the peace had been a spectacular

:29:41. > :29:49.success. What a pity he has learned nothing from his own former wisdom.

:29:50. > :29:52.Now, I will give way. Does the right honourable gentleman really believe

:29:53. > :29:59.that the people who lie in those graves fought and died for a united

:30:00. > :30:04.Europe or for the rights of their own countries and the occupied

:30:05. > :30:09.countries to govern themselves, and does he really believe that there

:30:10. > :30:13.was any risk of war between the democracies that were created at the

:30:14. > :30:17.end of the Second World War in the decade before the European Union or

:30:18. > :30:23.the European economic community came into existence? Like many members of

:30:24. > :30:27.this House, I lost an uncle in the Second World War. He was an RAF

:30:28. > :30:33.pilot, and he was killed three weeks after D day. He fault along with

:30:34. > :30:37.everybody else against the ideology of Naziism and what it did, which is

:30:38. > :30:41.why the rise of the far right in Europe should give us all cause for

:30:42. > :30:46.concern, and indeed remind us that the dangers of the past that in the

:30:47. > :30:49.post-war period with all its growth and stability people would have

:30:50. > :30:54.thought, that's done and dusted - it's not done and dusted. It is

:30:55. > :30:59.still with us, and the values that we are fighting to uphold are the

:31:00. > :31:03.values of cooperation between free democracies that have come together

:31:04. > :31:07.of their own volition to cooperate in the interests of maintaining that

:31:08. > :31:11.peace and building something better for the future, and that is the

:31:12. > :31:16.difference between those who argue for Remain and those who think that

:31:17. > :31:22.we should Leave. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker - all right. Of course I

:31:23. > :31:26.will give way. My honourable friend. Thank you to my honourable friend

:31:27. > :31:31.for giving way. He's making a powerful point and like him, my

:31:32. > :31:36.father and grandfather fought this those wars. We haven't had to endure

:31:37. > :31:40.those. Would he also agree we have moved on from that situation where

:31:41. > :31:45.we had dictatorships in Spain, for chew gal, Greece. We had fascism,

:31:46. > :31:49.the horrors of the Balkans, the situation in Cypress and Europe has

:31:50. > :31:54.actually taken us forward from many of those conflicts and instabilities

:31:55. > :31:58.we have seen on our coninent? My honourable friend is absolutely

:31:59. > :32:02.right, and we should learn from history, and we should recall that

:32:03. > :32:07.one of the things that Europe has done has been to act as a magnet to

:32:08. > :32:12.countries by offering stability, the rule of law, the values, for all of

:32:13. > :32:16.the irritations and the occasional problems and the difficulties that

:32:17. > :32:20.28 member states trying to reach agreement on can bring from time to

:32:21. > :32:26.time, that has been such a powerful force for good in our continent, and

:32:27. > :32:30.we cast it aside at our peril, and I believe we would do so to our

:32:31. > :32:34.regret. Now, Madam Deputy Speaker, those are the facts of our

:32:35. > :32:39.membership. We know what membership gives us. We know what it involves.

:32:40. > :32:43.Now, what is the other fact? Very simply this - the answer to the

:32:44. > :32:48.honest question, what would happen if we left the European Union? Is -

:32:49. > :32:52.now, we have heard a number of answers from the Leave campaign

:32:53. > :32:58.during the debate so far. It will all be fine. "We'll get a better

:32:59. > :33:02.deal outside." We hear a lot of that recently I did a debate and I heard

:33:03. > :33:07.a lot of, "Nothing has to change. There is no need for that to

:33:08. > :33:10.change." That is a really odd one as an argument because it begs the

:33:11. > :33:14.question if nothing need to change, why are you campaigning so hard for

:33:15. > :33:18.to us leave in the first place? The honest answer to the question of

:33:19. > :33:24.what'll happen if we leave is simply this: We don't know. And there we

:33:25. > :33:28.have it two, facts. What we know - remaining in the European Union and

:33:29. > :33:34.what we don't know - leaving the European Union. Now, Madam Deputy

:33:35. > :33:37.Speaker, I don't believe it is a coincidence that the Foreign

:33:38. > :33:41.Secretary and his predecessor, both whom I think it would be fair to

:33:42. > :33:46.describe previously as having been regarded as Euro sceptics, having

:33:47. > :33:49.both now served in the FCO are campaigning for Britain to remain in

:33:50. > :33:53.the European Union because they have seen first hand precisely How being

:33:54. > :33:58.a member gives us influence in the world and we should therefore on

:33:59. > :34:02.this occasion give thanks for the fact that this particular Government

:34:03. > :34:05.has not one but two departments of education in Whitehall. The first is

:34:06. > :34:10.called the department for education, and the second is called the Foreign

:34:11. > :34:14.and Commonwealth Office and it is a shame that the Prime Minister has

:34:15. > :34:18.not been able to allow more Conservative Euro-sceptics to serve

:34:19. > :34:25.in the Fon and Commonwealth Office and go through their excellent

:34:26. > :34:31.retraining and conversion programme. Now, turning to Syria, the House -

:34:32. > :34:35.well, I - there we are. It's proof of my argument, proof of my

:34:36. > :34:39.argument. Turning to Syria, the House will welcome the renewed

:34:40. > :34:42.commitment in the gracious speech to support international efforts to

:34:43. > :34:46.bring fees this brutalised and war-weary country and its

:34:47. > :34:51.lock-suffering people. The civil war has raged for five years. Half the

:34:52. > :34:56.population have fled their homes. According to the Observer for Human

:34:57. > :35:02.Right overs 360,000 people have lost their lives, mostly at the hands of

:35:03. > :35:05.President Assad, and Russian air strikes have killed 1700 civilians

:35:06. > :35:09.in the past six months alone, and the determination of some of those

:35:10. > :35:14.fleeing this destruction to try and make to it Europe despite the per

:35:15. > :35:17.Loys and dangerous journey shows their utter desperation, and I say

:35:18. > :35:22.that while the Government's offering of humanitarian aid has been

:35:23. > :35:28.exemplary, and it has, its offering of a home to those fleeing has not.

:35:29. > :35:34.Time and again, it has fallen short and has had to be shamed and forced

:35:35. > :35:38.into action. And the immediate priority, as the Foreign Secretary

:35:39. > :35:42.said, is to enable the next round of peace talks to take place and for

:35:43. > :35:47.that to happen, the ceasefire has to be observed. It is unacceptable for

:35:48. > :35:54.the Assad regime to be continuing to attack the opposition forces when

:35:55. > :35:57.they are expected to sit opposite his representatives at the table to

:35:58. > :36:04.try to negotiate a peaceful solution. We also need humanitarian

:36:05. > :36:09.access. I was struck when Stefan Denastura said five days ago how

:36:10. > :36:13.unacceptable it is that well-fed, grown-up soldiers have blocked the

:36:14. > :36:18.delivery of baby food to the town of Duresur. If access is not

:36:19. > :36:25.significantly and speedily improved, then we should use air drops to

:36:26. > :36:29.reach civilians and I welcome what the Foreign Secretary said on that

:36:30. > :36:34.matter a little earlier. Daesh have taken brutal, cruel advantage of the

:36:35. > :36:38.civil war, and their ideology is spreading across North Africa and

:36:39. > :36:43.other parts of the world. And the whole House has agreed we have to

:36:44. > :36:47.stand up to their barbarity, and it is good to see reported that in

:36:48. > :36:52.recent months their grip, particularly in Iraq, has been

:36:53. > :36:56.weakened as a result of the Iraqi efforts, the efforts of the

:36:57. > :37:00.Peshmerga and the international military coalition, but we must also

:37:01. > :37:05.hold them to account for what they have done. Now, the UK - one of the

:37:06. > :37:08.things we can be very proud of has been our consistent support for the

:37:09. > :37:11.International Criminal Court as a means of dealing with crimes against

:37:12. > :37:15.humanity and war crimes, and there is no doubt at all that Daesh are

:37:16. > :37:19.killing people in Syria and Iraq because of their ethnicity, because

:37:20. > :37:23.of their race and because of their religion, and what they are doing

:37:24. > :37:29.has all the hallmarks of genocide as well as crimes against humanity and

:37:30. > :37:33.war crimes. Look what they have done to the Isidis when members - and I

:37:34. > :37:37.am one - have sat and listened to a young woman there describe how Daesh

:37:38. > :37:43.came to her village, killed all the men, murdered her mother, took her

:37:44. > :37:48.into sexual slavery is to be forced to look into the darkness of human

:37:49. > :37:52.depravity. And therefore, when the House voted on the 20th of April for

:37:53. > :37:56.the Government immediately to refer these crimes to the International

:37:57. > :38:00.Criminal Court through the UN Security Council, and Ministers

:38:01. > :38:04.abstained in this vote, I hope that they will now demonstrate to the

:38:05. > :38:08.House that they are prepared to take this forward because it is very

:38:09. > :38:12.important that the evidence is preserved, so that in the end those

:38:13. > :38:18.who have been responsible are held to account. Now, as we've heard

:38:19. > :38:23.earlier today, many across the House have expressed deep concern about

:38:24. > :38:27.the alleged war crimes committed in Yemen and the hidden humanitarian

:38:28. > :38:32.disaster there. According to Oxfam, 80% of the population in Yemen are

:38:33. > :38:37.urgently in need of humanitarian assistance, and it is an unreported

:38:38. > :38:41.humanitarian disaster because of the risks and the dangers of journalists

:38:42. > :38:46.going in there. Now, we on this side of the House have repeatedly called

:38:47. > :38:49.for an independent inquiry into alleged violations of international

:38:50. > :38:55.humanitarian law and for the Government immediately to suspend

:38:56. > :39:01.all arms sales to Saudi Arabia until an inquiry has taken place. There is

:39:02. > :39:05.mounting evidence of serious breaches of international

:39:06. > :39:09.humanitarian law, and a clear risk that British-made weapons are being

:39:10. > :39:12.used, but I have to say the Government is burying its head in

:39:13. > :39:17.the sand. The Foreign Secretary will be well aware of the number of UN

:39:18. > :39:21.officials who have spoken out on this matter include degree

:39:22. > :39:24.Secretary-General, the under Secretary-General for humanitarian

:39:25. > :39:31.affairs, the humanitarian koord Nator for Yemen, the UN special

:39:32. > :39:35.advisor, the UN Commissioner on human rights, the UN special rapper

:39:36. > :39:40.to on the right to food and the UN special advisor on the

:39:41. > :39:45.responsibility to protect. I do not need to protect for the words of the

:39:46. > :39:49.United Nations' panel of experts on the Yemen final report because we

:39:50. > :39:54.heard that quoted a little earlier in this debate about what they have

:39:55. > :39:57.found. UK and EU law couldn't be clearer, the Government shouldn't

:39:58. > :40:02.grant arms licenses to a country if there is a clear risk that the items

:40:03. > :40:07.might be used in the commission of serious violations of international

:40:08. > :40:10.humanitarian law, and I don't think the Government is takingness

:40:11. > :40:13.responsibilities seriously enough because frankly the answers we had

:40:14. > :40:17.today in response to the urgent question do not really bear

:40:18. > :40:20.scrutiny. I do welcome the Government's commitment in the

:40:21. > :40:23.legislative programme to ratify - I will give way.

:40:24. > :40:29.He talked about the urgents question, that related to equipment

:40:30. > :40:32.that hasn't been in manufacture for two-and-a-half decades. There could

:40:33. > :40:35.be no question of any supply of that type of equipment. So I don't

:40:36. > :40:44.understand why he makes the point he did. Madam Deputy Speaker, I think

:40:45. > :40:48.the Government's response - I welcome that further inquiries are

:40:49. > :40:53.going to be made about what amnesty international has found but I'm

:40:54. > :40:56.making a broader point about repeated allegations of the breach

:40:57. > :40:59.of international humanitarian law and the Government's response seems

:41:00. > :41:05.to be well, we're asking the Saudis to look at this and we'll see what

:41:06. > :41:09.they say. There is now time and need for an independent investigation of

:41:10. > :41:15.what has been going on. I will give way. If it were to be found that

:41:16. > :41:19.Saudi Arabia had use aid cluster bomb, even one made some time ago,

:41:20. > :41:23.manufactured in the UK, wouldn't that in itself, the use of the

:41:24. > :41:29.cluster bomb be a reason for suspending arms sales to Saudi

:41:30. > :41:34.Arabia? Well, it would, maybe it would depend on what aircraft or

:41:35. > :41:38.means was used to deliver it, because of course we have sold a

:41:39. > :41:42.very large amount of military equipment to Saudi Arabia, but given

:41:43. > :41:46.the mounting evidence about the use of cluster munitions, despite the

:41:47. > :41:49.denials that were reported once again to the House and the Foreign

:41:50. > :41:53.Secretary I think at one point said, "I believe we've got to the point

:41:54. > :41:58.where we're going to have a commitment that they're not being

:41:59. > :42:01.used." I would like not only to have that commitment from the Saudi

:42:02. > :42:03.authorities but I would like to see an absence of evidence on the

:42:04. > :42:08.ground, because that is what is being discovered by those who are

:42:09. > :42:12.looking at what is occurring in the middle of this terrible conflict.

:42:13. > :42:16.But I was going on to say that I do welcome the Government's commitment

:42:17. > :42:19.in the legislative programme to ratify The Hague convention on the

:42:20. > :42:22.protection of cultural property in the event of armed conflict. This is

:42:23. > :42:27.something that we have been calling for. It's an important step forward.

:42:28. > :42:32.I hope it will serve to strengthen the commitment of the UK to the

:42:33. > :42:37.protection of cultural air Taj in conflict -- heritage in conflict

:42:38. > :42:41.zones, including in Yemen and Iraq, given the concerns that UNESCO have

:42:42. > :42:45.expressed. As a member of the UN Security Council we have a special

:42:46. > :42:49.responsibility to stand up for international law and fundamental

:42:50. > :42:54.rights. And indeed, our security is best protected when we do so. That

:42:55. > :42:58.is why any proposal to repeal the Human Rights Act would, I believe,

:42:59. > :43:04.damage our reputation in the world and give comfort to those who seek

:43:05. > :43:08.to undermine human rights in their country. It is therefore troubling,

:43:09. > :43:14.I heard the Foreign Secretary's reply a moment ago about what the

:43:15. > :43:17.Permanent Secretary said, but it is troubling when the Permanent

:43:18. > :43:21.Secretary goes to the Foreign Affairs Select Committee and says,

:43:22. > :43:27.and I quote, that human rights are "not one of the top priorities in

:43:28. > :43:30.the department". I would say to the Foreign Secretary, well, what he was

:43:31. > :43:34.seeking to express was we are mainstreaming it. It seems to me the

:43:35. > :43:37.message is not being terribly well communicated if that's what the

:43:38. > :43:41.Permanent Secretary said. I want to ask the right honourable gentleman,

:43:42. > :43:44.does he not think that Britain had a reputation in the world for

:43:45. > :43:50.protection of human rights before we had the Human Rights Act? Of course,

:43:51. > :43:56.we had a reputation for that. I'm not saying that we didn't. But

:43:57. > :44:00.having taken the step, one, of helping to found the European

:44:01. > :44:04.convention at the end of the Second World War, two, to have put the

:44:05. > :44:10.Human Rights Act on the statute book so people in this country can access

:44:11. > :44:14.those rights before making the long journey to the European Court of

:44:15. > :44:20.Human Rights, to argue that we should weaken our position is, I

:44:21. > :44:27.think, a profound mistake. Indeed there are those who express concerns

:44:28. > :44:31.about our membership of the European convention itself. I think it is

:44:32. > :44:34.depressing there are those who are arguing that we should resign from

:44:35. > :44:38.the commitments that we freely entered into as a way of offering

:44:39. > :44:44.leadership to the world in the way that some on those benches opposite

:44:45. > :44:50.are seeking to do and I pay tribute, seeing the former Attorney-General

:44:51. > :44:55.is nodding approvingly, for those standing up against them. The right

:44:56. > :44:59.honourable member makes an excellent point. Britain's history of human

:45:00. > :45:05.rights goes hundreds of years into the past, indeed way bag to Magna

:45:06. > :45:09.Carta. What we're really arguing with Human Rights Act, is not human

:45:10. > :45:12.rights in England but the stretch of the judiciary into areas that are

:45:13. > :45:16.correctly the role of Parliament. What he's arguing on that side is

:45:17. > :45:21.that human rights should be used to circumvent Parliament by using law

:45:22. > :45:25.to intervene in other areas. If one takes the most famous case of all,

:45:26. > :45:27.which is voting rights for prisoners, a subject dear to the

:45:28. > :45:32.Home Secretary's heart, how many years ago was that judgment handed

:45:33. > :45:35.down? Well not that they should have voting rights, just for the

:45:36. > :45:39.avoidance of doubt, how many years ago was that hand down? Do prisoners

:45:40. > :45:44.in Britain have voting rights? No, they don't. The way in which we

:45:45. > :45:49.constructed the Human Rights Act allows Parliament, in the end, to

:45:50. > :45:54.take that decision. Me thinks those who argue that we should take these

:45:55. > :45:59.steps protest too much. Because we should be proud of our past

:46:00. > :46:03.reputation, our history and the foundations on which we have built

:46:04. > :46:06.our continuing commitment to human rights, which include the European

:46:07. > :46:09.convention and the Human Rights Act that the last Labour Government put

:46:10. > :46:14.on the statute book. Madam Deputy Speaker, as the United Kingdom, we

:46:15. > :46:17.have always been at our best when we are an outward-looking and confident

:46:18. > :46:20.nation. We helped to build the institution that's have given the

:46:21. > :46:24.world the best chance to make progress, the United Nationses, Nato

:46:25. > :46:28.and the European Union as late comers. Say to the House, when we

:46:29. > :46:32.look at the challenges that our children and grandchildren are going

:46:33. > :46:36.to face in their lives, fighting climate change, reducing poverty,

:46:37. > :46:40.dealing with conflict, people fighting over religion, we see that

:46:41. > :46:44.currently, water, land, energy, the rise of the politics of the right,

:46:45. > :46:49.or dealing with the consequences of large numbers of people moving

:46:50. > :46:55.around the globe, mark my words, that will be the story of this

:46:56. > :47:00.Severnery - -- century - the question is this: What will give us

:47:01. > :47:03.the best chance of managing those challenges and dealing with the

:47:04. > :47:09.changes that they will see in their lives, just as we have seen in ours?

:47:10. > :47:13.Madam Deputy Speaker, when I was born, the world's population was 2.

:47:14. > :47:17.7 billion. By the time my grandchildren reach my age, it will

:47:18. > :47:21.be around 10 billion. The British Empire has gone and it's been

:47:22. > :47:25.replaced by the Commonwealth, the Berlin Wall has given way to the

:47:26. > :47:28.democracies of Europe. We've seen the rise of terrorism. New global

:47:29. > :47:34.powers, astonishing economic development of China what old divide

:47:35. > :47:37.between domestic and the foreign is increasingly eroding and becoming

:47:38. > :47:42.blurred, because globalisation is transforming our world. As a nation

:47:43. > :47:46.in 30 days' time, we will be confronted with a choice about how

:47:47. > :47:51.we are going to deal with that transformation. For me it is a

:47:52. > :47:56.choice between optimism and pessimism, a choice between outward

:47:57. > :48:00.facing patriotism and an inward-looking nationalism. The

:48:01. > :48:03.former built on playing a proud and leading role through cooperation in

:48:04. > :48:07.the very institution that's we have helped to fashion and the latter

:48:08. > :48:11.that seeks to lure us to turn our back on them. Now these are the two

:48:12. > :48:18.competing visions of Britain's future. I hope that on the 23 June,

:48:19. > :48:21.the British people will vote for cooperation, because it represents

:48:22. > :48:24.the best hope we have for that future and for the lives of those

:48:25. > :48:31.who will come after us. THE SPEAKER: Kenneth Clarke. I

:48:32. > :48:37.propose to resist the temptation to give the House my arguments in

:48:38. > :48:41.favour of Britain remaining in the European Union. Those members of

:48:42. > :48:45.Parliament who find it irresistible to hear me on the subject made their

:48:46. > :48:50.way to the debate in the Speaker's House last night, where I debated

:48:51. > :48:55.amongst others against my old colleague Lord Tebbitt and actually

:48:56. > :48:57.on this occasion, I agree so completely by what's been said by

:48:58. > :49:01.both the Foreign Secretary and the Shadow Foreign Secretary, I thought

:49:02. > :49:06.I might desist, particularly as over the next 30 days I shall be making

:49:07. > :49:12.many more speeches on this subject. But this afternoon, I look forward

:49:13. > :49:15.with a certain amount of relief after this interminable campaign to

:49:16. > :49:20.the fact that this House and the Government is going to return to the

:49:21. > :49:24.government of the country on domestic issues as well, and have an

:49:25. > :49:30.agenda to which we can return which will spare us from the fear of

:49:31. > :49:34.millions of criminal Turks coming to this country and our sovereignty

:49:35. > :49:37.being sacrificed to faceless men in Brussels and all the rest of it,

:49:38. > :49:43.there are a lot of very serious issues facing this country at home.

:49:44. > :49:46.They're described today as how to keep people safe at home and abroad

:49:47. > :49:52.and how to protect our mum an rights. I turn to that. -- human

:49:53. > :50:01.rights. I turn to that. With great respect, I'm trying to be short. As

:50:02. > :50:05.I become more long serving, I find I get ever more garrulous. I know

:50:06. > :50:10.there are huge number of members who want to speak in this debate. If I

:50:11. > :50:13.may be allowed, I'll resist the temptation to give way much though I

:50:14. > :50:17.normally enjoy it. It seemed to me, when I looked at the Queen's Speech

:50:18. > :50:20.and listened to the Queen's Speech and heard the analysis afterwards,

:50:21. > :50:24.that the Prime Minister was actually rather looking to his legacy. He's

:50:25. > :50:27.already become one of the longest serving Prime Ministers since the

:50:28. > :50:30.war much he's announced that he's not going to be Prime Minister into

:50:31. > :50:37.the next Parliament. So this Queen's Speech has more of a theme than most

:50:38. > :50:42.Queen's speeches have. He described it, the slogan that we're all to use

:50:43. > :50:46.now is that it was a progressive, one-nation theme. I don't like

:50:47. > :50:51.slogans, but I can hardly object to that. I've been trying to describe

:50:52. > :50:55.my own political views for years like that. It also was about the

:50:56. > :51:00.disadvantage of society and improving the life chances of those

:51:01. > :51:07.who have disadvantages and actually in trying to address the still weak

:51:08. > :51:14.state of merit onningracy -- meritocracy today. I benefitted from

:51:15. > :51:18.the brief window of meritocracy which this kurn trienjoyed --

:51:19. > :51:23.country enjoyed quite a long time ago because of the butler act of

:51:24. > :51:28.1944, which I hasten to add I wouldn't go back to that old system.

:51:29. > :51:32.But we all know that one of the worrying things in our society is a

:51:33. > :51:36.growing awareness of widening inequality, both of incomes, thanks

:51:37. > :51:41.to the absurd levels to which some corporate salaries have been allowed

:51:42. > :51:45.it rise over the last ten years, and also, of opportunity from those who

:51:46. > :51:49.are born in the less advantaged parts of the country. The main thing

:51:50. > :51:54.that I was mainly impressed by in looking at the contents of the

:51:55. > :52:00.Queen's Speech is how we're seized of that. This growing inequality is

:52:01. > :52:06.sensed by more and more people. It is very real for many of our younger

:52:07. > :52:09.generation. It's a subject, ien equality of opportunity --

:52:10. > :52:12.inequality of opportunity and of income which has always concerned

:52:13. > :52:16.those of the left. But in my opinion, those of us who believe in

:52:17. > :52:23.free market economics should be just as concerned by this threat to the

:52:24. > :52:30.stability of our society as our socialist opposite numbers. I think

:52:31. > :52:35.it behooves us to do something about it. I therefore hope that things

:52:36. > :52:39.like the children and social work bill, and the proposals being made

:52:40. > :52:44.to tackle the inadequacies what have we now do for children in care and

:52:45. > :52:48.to improve the operation of the adoption system is just one, I'm not

:52:49. > :52:55.going into the whole Queen's Speech, one of those mesures which I hope

:52:56. > :53:00.will give positive effect to this agenda of actually recreating a

:53:01. > :53:03.fairer society in which opportunities are available on a

:53:04. > :53:09.much wider range than they are at the moment, to all sections of

:53:10. > :53:14.society. Now also, the biggest, prominent Bill in the Queen's Speech

:53:15. > :53:20.is prison reform. Obviously, I very much welcome that. I say obviously

:53:21. > :53:24.because the Secretary of State for justice and the Prime Minister

:53:25. > :53:29.himself, in a very noticeable speech, have reinforced an agenda

:53:30. > :53:33.which my party first set out when we were in Opposition, before 2010,

:53:34. > :53:38.which is an agenda which I propounded when I was Justice

:53:39. > :53:40.Secretary for the first two-and-a-half years of the

:53:41. > :53:46.Government and tried to give effect to. I do congratulation the

:53:47. > :53:50.Secretary of State for justice, who I regret to say is not in his place

:53:51. > :53:55.at the moment, because he appears to have achieved more success in

:53:56. > :54:02.overcoming the hesitations in practice of some of the more serious

:54:03. > :54:05.members of the Government than I actually did, so he has been able to

:54:06. > :54:15.promise things that I wish I'd achieved. He has a more agenda that

:54:16. > :54:19.I was able to deliver. We did a great deal to improve training for

:54:20. > :54:22.work by outside employers in prisons and other things, but there are

:54:23. > :54:26.other things that look as though, at last, they're going to be tackled.

:54:27. > :54:32.The problem always is that we have a fear in this House of the reaction

:54:33. > :54:44.to anything entitled "prison reform".

:54:45. > :54:49.Both parties have been very much subject to fear of the right-wing

:54:50. > :54:54.tabloids every time they have looked at this subject. It's not wet. It's

:54:55. > :54:57.part of protecting people from harm in this society that everything

:54:58. > :55:03.contributes to the reduction of crime. When people are sent to

:55:04. > :55:10.prison, quite rightly, for criminal offences, it is an achievement if

:55:11. > :55:14.most of them don't return to crime and become honest citizens when they

:55:15. > :55:21.are released, and I think you can get public support for these changes

:55:22. > :55:26.as long as you emphasise at the moment, 48% of our prisoners are

:55:27. > :55:33.convicted again. They return to crime within 12 months of being

:55:34. > :55:38.released. And that shows how little progress so far we've actually made

:55:39. > :55:43.in dealing not with a hard-core of criminals, who just are going to be

:55:44. > :55:46.in prison for long periods of their life if the police south-east

:55:47. > :55:50.succeed in catching them, but those who suffer from drug abuse, mental

:55:51. > :55:56.health problems, those who have never had a basic education, are not

:55:57. > :56:01.numerate, not literate and those who could benefit from training, for

:56:02. > :56:07.preparation for work and preparation to rehabilitate them and return them

:56:08. > :56:13.as honest citizens. And I hope, therefore that reimplement this as

:56:14. > :56:18.well as legislate it. I welcome the report on education which is

:56:19. > :56:21.addressing the fact we have always tried to educate prisoners but once

:56:22. > :56:26.delivered is very patchy and limited and I hope we'll implement all of

:56:27. > :56:30.it. I welcome to interesting idea of the six reforms prisons, but I hope

:56:31. > :56:35.that doesn't mean that the most adventurous reforms are going to be

:56:36. > :56:41.confined to these six prisons, and I think we should just keep an eye on

:56:42. > :56:46.that figure of 48% and judge our progress in a few years' time by

:56:47. > :56:53.whether at last we're able to reduce it, but I will - no, I won't. What I

:56:54. > :56:59.would say is I don't think we're going to deliver a lot on this

:57:00. > :57:07.unless we tackle one other problem, which is the enormous number of

:57:08. > :57:11.people we now incarcerate, largely in response to populist demands that

:57:12. > :57:21.led to us increasing and toughening up sentencing for about the last two

:57:22. > :57:25.decades. We now have - I think it's 88,000 prisoners - 86,000 prisoners,

:57:26. > :57:34.which is about double where it was 20 years ago when I was Home

:57:35. > :57:36.Secretary, and I signed up to quite substantial reductions in the

:57:37. > :57:39.national interests in public spending in my department when I was

:57:40. > :57:44.Justice Secretary. It was on the basis we were going to reduce that

:57:45. > :57:50.number of prisons to something like the level that we actually ought to

:57:51. > :57:55.have in our jails. I wasn't actually able to deliver that. After I left,

:57:56. > :58:00.the numbers started drifting up again, and it has the effect, for

:58:01. > :58:04.example that in education, which I've already mentioned, you don't

:58:05. > :58:11.have the money, actually, to deliver these programmes, and - no, I'm not

:58:12. > :58:18.going to give way, sorry. Between 2012-13, 2014-15, there has been an

:58:19. > :58:22.85% fall in the number of prisoners taking A level standard

:58:23. > :58:26.qualifications and a 42% drop in those going for open universities.

:58:27. > :58:30.So when you get rid of the numbers, then you're able actually to finance

:58:31. > :58:36.what you wish to do and, in my opinion, you cannot deliver proper

:58:37. > :58:41.rehabilitation programmes in overcrowded slums. Now, I've - I go

:58:42. > :58:46.on to all the other topics that I would like to support in the bill, I

:58:47. > :58:49.will actually start excluding other members from the debate which I have

:58:50. > :58:54.said, which I am anxious not to do, Madam Deputy Speaker, and I promise

:58:55. > :58:57.you I will not. Can I briefly welcome the Criminal Finances Bill?

:58:58. > :59:01.I think in the fight against crime in this country, and my right

:59:02. > :59:06.honourable friend the Home Secretary is replying to that debate, I think,

:59:07. > :59:10.we are very bad at dealing with white collar crime. There is growing

:59:11. > :59:15.awareness of that if you wish to rob a bank you go to the LIBOR market.

:59:16. > :59:19.You don't put a Balaklava on and pick up a shotgun. That's much less

:59:20. > :59:24.profitable. At last we're starting to do something about it. I welcome

:59:25. > :59:28.this bill and I hope I can be reassured it will tackle not just

:59:29. > :59:33.tax evasion which is quite rightly high on the public agenda, but money

:59:34. > :59:39.laundering. London is still the money-laundering capital of the

:59:40. > :59:44.world. If you're an African despot or a serious international corrupt

:59:45. > :59:48.criminal, London is the best place to put your money because you can

:59:49. > :59:55.trust the bankers to look after it and not steal it from you. And I

:59:56. > :59:59.welcome the fact that we're going to improve the reporting of suspicious

:00:00. > :00:06.activities. I also hope we'll impose a duty on those at the head of these

:00:07. > :00:10.institution actually to ensure that they take positive steps to stop

:00:11. > :00:16.those working for them, encouraging it. I'll continue to follow progress

:00:17. > :00:20.on the Investigative Powers Bill where we have to get the balance

:00:21. > :00:24.right between firstly the powers that our agencies must have to deal

:00:25. > :00:28.with the threat of terrorism and crime,on on the one hand, and the

:00:29. > :00:33.privacy that we can retain in our society to defend the freedoms we

:00:34. > :00:38.want. I particularly welcomed in the Queen's Speech there was no mention

:00:39. > :00:42.whatever of repealing the Human Rights Act or any legislation on

:00:43. > :00:48.human rights. I hope that means we are proceeding on this front with

:00:49. > :00:52.very considerable caution. I looked at my right honourable friend's

:00:53. > :00:57.speech when she was reported as having said things on the subject of

:00:58. > :01:00.the convention. It actually - what she said was rather ambiguous. It

:01:01. > :01:05.was not a change of Government policy. I hope I'm correctly

:01:06. > :01:10.reassured that there isn't the slightest question of her giving up

:01:11. > :01:15.the Convention on Human Rights or trying to weaken the jurisdiction in

:01:16. > :01:23.Strasbourg. I wait to hear a good reason for getting rid of the Human

:01:24. > :01:29.Rights Act. And stopping British judges being allowed to apply the

:01:30. > :01:33.principles of the Convention. When we're taken to Strasbourg, which is

:01:34. > :01:38.where they'll all go again if we get rid of the Human Rights Act, we'll

:01:39. > :01:42.only lose 2% of the cases. I don't get frightfully worried about air

:01:43. > :01:45.hostesses being allowed to wear crucifixes with their uniforms which

:01:46. > :01:50.is the kind of thing that we actually lose. Someone has quite

:01:51. > :01:55.rightly pointed out that the Council of Europe has systems so we've not

:01:56. > :01:59.been forced to give prisoners voting rights, in fact, and otherwise, our

:02:00. > :02:03.reputation for human rights will be damaged if we're seen to be

:02:04. > :02:07.retreating from where we are. The court in Strasbourg and the

:02:08. > :02:14.Convention are the best levers we have to make sure that Liberal

:02:15. > :02:19.values are defended in Russia, Azerbaijan, Ukraine, Georgia, the

:02:20. > :02:24.other countries who do abide by the judgments in Strasbourg, and they

:02:25. > :02:30.get defeated many more times there than we do, so I trust a very

:02:31. > :02:35.considerable thought is being given to this subject. I am not aware of

:02:36. > :02:41.any harm being done at the moment. Of course, I believe in the

:02:42. > :02:45.supremacy of Parliament. Even Parliament must actually pass

:02:46. > :02:50.legislation consistent with the high standards of human rights we've

:02:51. > :02:54.always had, and I see no harm whatever in British judges or judges

:02:55. > :03:01.in Strasbourg being allowed occasionally to challenge the way in

:03:02. > :03:05.which our legislation is interpreted by officials in the Home Office or

:03:06. > :03:10.elsewhere, even occasionally by Ministers in a way that really ought

:03:11. > :03:15.to be reconsidered, but subject to that and assuming we are all putting

:03:16. > :03:19.human rights in our foreign policy, as the Foreign Secretary very

:03:20. > :03:24.eloquently said and had my full approval when he said it, I do think

:03:25. > :03:28.once the slight madness of this referendum is over - and I'm of the

:03:29. > :03:32.generation who does not think that referendums are the best way of

:03:33. > :03:37.determining the whole future of this country's foreign policy and the

:03:38. > :03:42.basis of its trade and economic prosperity in tomorrow's world, but

:03:43. > :03:47.when the debate is over, this isn't a programme of a Government that's

:03:48. > :03:50.been driven off its agenda. It's actually a very solid, reforming

:03:51. > :03:55.programme of a Government that has the best interests of the country in

:03:56. > :04:00.the mind, should be able to achieve some very real social advances the

:04:01. > :04:03.we implement it. Madam Deputy Speaker, of course, it's a great

:04:04. > :04:06.pleasure to follow the right honourable member for Rushcliff.

:04:07. > :04:12.However, I have to start by disagreeing with him. He claimed a

:04:13. > :04:15.few moments ago that the Leave campaign were saying millions of

:04:16. > :04:20.Turkish criminals were about to flood the country. That's not true.

:04:21. > :04:24.The actual claim of the Leave campaign is only malare coming over

:04:25. > :04:30.the next eight years, and not all of them are criminals. Indeed, I have

:04:31. > :04:34.the quote here from Vote Leave - "Since the birthrate in Turkey is so

:04:35. > :04:37.high, we can expect to see an additional million people added to

:04:38. > :04:42.the UK population from Turkey alone within the next eight years." That

:04:43. > :04:46.accompanying a statement from a Government Minister who had never

:04:47. > :04:50.heard of the word "veto" when it comes to the accession of states but

:04:51. > :04:57.I am grateful to the Times newspaper this morning for adding just a

:04:58. > :05:03.little insight into this, under the caption saying, "Turkish delight -

:05:04. > :05:07.one of the Leave's key warns is the threat to service posed by Turkey

:05:08. > :05:13.joining the European Union, but that's what? Big name outers are all

:05:14. > :05:17.listed as founder members of Conservative Friends of Turkey set

:05:18. > :05:23.up to lobby in favour of Turkish membership of the European Union."

:05:24. > :05:28.Now, it's now clear, Madam Deputy Speaker - such is the Machiavellian

:05:29. > :05:32.tactics of the Leave campaign that that triumvirate clearly have been

:05:33. > :05:37.campaigning for Turkish membership of the Union so they can use that as

:05:38. > :05:42.a reason for the removal of Britain from the European Union. What an

:05:43. > :05:45.extraordinary array of political talent and consistency we face.

:05:46. > :05:49.Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to make three points because we have been

:05:50. > :05:52.well around the houses today between the Foreign Office questions,

:05:53. > :05:58.between the emergency statement and now this debate. I want to restrict

:05:59. > :06:02.myself an argument about brings and Scottish values with regards to

:06:03. > :06:05.immigration. I want to talk a little about Libya because I'm not sure

:06:06. > :06:10.that we're hearing the full story from the Government as to where we

:06:11. > :06:17.are with military action on Libya. Lastly, want to talk about the

:06:18. > :06:20.European Union Referendum and project fear, a matter of which I

:06:21. > :06:24.have some experience and knowledge of from the past, but firstly, to

:06:25. > :06:29.look at the question of immigration - and the nonsense from the Leave

:06:30. > :06:33.campaign on immigration can be juxtaposed with the reality of where

:06:34. > :06:39.we are in Scotland with many immigration cases, and what I want

:06:40. > :06:44.to talk about is the plight of the Brain family. That's Greg Brain,

:06:45. > :06:49.Katherine Brain and their son Lachlan, who is seven years old.

:06:50. > :06:53.This is a family who came from Australia to Dingwall in the

:06:54. > :06:58.Scottish Highlands as part of the Homecoming Programme. This was a

:06:59. > :07:01.programme initiated by my predecessor, first Minister Lord

:07:02. > :07:05.McConnell and carried forward by my administration. They came, and that

:07:06. > :07:09.was heavily advertised in Australia to encourage those of Scottish

:07:10. > :07:13.descent to return to Scotland to help repopulate and reinvigorate the

:07:14. > :07:18.highlands and other areas of Scotland. Greg and Kathleen both

:07:19. > :07:22.have Scottish roots. They first visited Scotland on their honeymoon

:07:23. > :07:25.of 20035, returned again in 2011 to do further research on whether a

:07:26. > :07:29.move to Scotland would be the right thing for them to up sticks from

:07:30. > :07:35.Australia and inless? Accumulated capital in Scotland to make a new

:07:36. > :07:40.life. Between 2005 and 2011 they applied for visas and Catt Lynn

:07:41. > :07:43.secured a student visa after enrolling in a degree. Her husband

:07:44. > :07:49.and son were listed as her dependents. She finished her degree

:07:50. > :07:52.last year and the family's visa expired in December 2015. The Home

:07:53. > :07:58.Office have rejected their case to stay. It's believed a further visa

:07:59. > :08:01.application was rejected as they'd not succeeded in finding jobs that

:08:02. > :08:05.completely fulfilled the visa requirements. This is despite the

:08:06. > :08:11.fact that Greg Brain had been working and was working but had then

:08:12. > :08:18.to give up his job as a result of the Home Office decision. They -

:08:19. > :08:25.this family and can I just stress that their son Lachlan has known no

:08:26. > :08:28.other home but Dingwall that scotch Gaelic is his first language?

:08:29. > :08:30.They're fully integrated into the community. They have massive

:08:31. > :08:36.community support. They have the support of just about every Scottish

:08:37. > :08:39.MP in this House. They have overwhelming support from the newly

:08:40. > :08:43.elected members of the Scottish Parliament as well as their own two

:08:44. > :08:49.excellent constituency members in both Parliaments. I do think this

:08:50. > :08:55.story affecting an area where the dominant issue over the last two

:08:56. > :09:00.centuries has not been one of fear of immigration, but fear of

:09:01. > :09:05.emigration that this family with so much to contribute and have

:09:06. > :09:10.contributed so much already, having been attracted to it by a Government

:09:11. > :09:13.sponsor - a Scottish Government-sponsored initiative to

:09:14. > :09:17.invite them to come, having qualified and worked and sustained

:09:18. > :09:21.themselves, are now to be kicked out of the country next Tuesday unless

:09:22. > :09:27.the Home Secretary and her Ministers will have the courtesy to look at

:09:28. > :09:30.this matter again and exercise the Ministerial discretion which Maos

:09:31. > :09:33.certainly should be exercised in this case.

:09:34. > :09:41.If the Home Office minister would like to say a word, I'd gladly give

:09:42. > :09:48.way at this stage. Well the silence from the frontbench should be a

:09:49. > :09:51.matter of shame, because there is a substantial injustice being

:09:52. > :09:56.inflicted on this family and a substantial discredit on our

:09:57. > :10:02.country. And it's not just becoming an immigration issue, it's not just

:10:03. > :10:06.an community issue. And a human rights issue, as the honourable lady

:10:07. > :10:09.rightly says, this is a matter where the Home Office are turning their

:10:10. > :10:14.face against the massive support of just about every Parliamentarian

:10:15. > :10:18.from Scotland and refusing to accept and acknowledge that this family

:10:19. > :10:21.came to tower country on a -- came to our country on a

:10:22. > :10:25.Government-sponsored scheme, I hope they will find within their hearts

:10:26. > :10:33.to look at this matter over the ne. Xt seven days.

:10:34. > :10:36.I secondly want to turn to the question of Libya and the Foreign

:10:37. > :10:42.Secretary referred a few moments ago to his visit to Tripoli, where he

:10:43. > :10:45.said the UK were ready to provide training to the new administration's

:10:46. > :10:50.armed forces, "It will be possible for us and our partners to support

:10:51. > :10:54.the mill tear training programme -- military training programme, such a

:10:55. > :10:58.mission would not require a Commons vote because quote, that does not

:10:59. > :11:01.extend to noncombat missions, he said. The chairman of the Select

:11:02. > :11:05.Committee is in his place, it rejected the idea of idea of a

:11:06. > :11:08.training mission stating that quote, "Even if you say it's just a

:11:09. > :11:13.training mission rather than a combat one, any foreign troop

:11:14. > :11:17.presence in Tripoli will be seen as a Western intervention". The

:11:18. > :11:22.commander of Libya's Air Force warned, if any foreign soldier

:11:23. > :11:26.touches our soil with his foot, all Libyan people will be united against

:11:27. > :11:33.him, our problems will be aggravated by foreign troops. An interview in

:11:34. > :11:37.RT, the former UK ambassador to Libya warned against loose talk of

:11:38. > :11:41.military intervention in the collapsing state, he said, "There's

:11:42. > :11:44.been talk of possible military intervention. I don't think it's

:11:45. > :11:49.helpful at the moment, because intervention is not what they need."

:11:50. > :11:56.Following the Foreign Affairs Select Committee visit to north Africa,

:11:57. > :12:00.middle of April, the committee chairman wrote to the Foreign

:12:01. > :12:05.Secretary accusing him of being less than candid and deliberately

:12:06. > :12:10.misleading to the uninformed reader over plans to send British troops to

:12:11. > :12:16.join an Italian-led training mission. Madam Deputy Speaker, we

:12:17. > :12:22.are a few weeks away on July 6 from the publication of the Chilcot

:12:23. > :12:27.report. One of the key issues which many of us hope will be identified

:12:28. > :12:32.and brought out in that report is the issue of pre-commitment, of what

:12:33. > :12:37.commitments were made by the then Prime Minister in 2002, which then

:12:38. > :12:42.dictated all his subsequent actions. I would like to ask the Foreign

:12:43. > :12:46.Secretary to get a straight answer and not just the question of combat

:12:47. > :12:52.roles which the Defence Secretary referred to earlier on, a straight

:12:53. > :12:57.answer as what if any commitments have been made in terms of

:12:58. > :13:02.intervention in Libya at this stage? Or is it genuinely a question, if I

:13:03. > :13:06.can ask the Foreign Secretary, that before any such commitments are

:13:07. > :13:13.undertaken, there will be a debate and vote in this House to ascertain

:13:14. > :13:18.the wisdom or otherwise of such an intervention? Madam Deputy Speaker,

:13:19. > :13:23.I want to move on lastly to the question of the European campaign

:13:24. > :13:29.and to project fear, as it was called. Project fear was a term

:13:30. > :13:33.which was deviced from an internal memo in the better together campaign

:13:34. > :13:37.in the Scottish referendum, where they self-described their campaign

:13:38. > :13:43.as project fear. I want to argue for a few seconds as to why I think this

:13:44. > :13:48.is entirely the wrong campaign to adopt. The Chancellor of the

:13:49. > :13:54.Exchequer has subtall shall form on this matter. In the 13th November

:13:55. > :13:57.2011 he gave an interview on BBC Scotland television where he

:13:58. > :14:02.predicted a collapse in inward investment in Scotland because of

:14:03. > :14:09.the referendum of 2014. This was followed by record years of inward

:14:10. > :14:13.investment in Scotland, in 2011, 2012, 2013 and 2014. The current

:14:14. > :14:19.Secretary of State for Scotland had the brass neck in a statement on the

:14:20. > :14:25.17th June last year to claim the credit for the record inward

:14:26. > :14:32.investment figures of 2014. Nor should anyone in the Leave campaign

:14:33. > :14:39.be surprised by the necessity fair ack -- necessity fairious activities

:14:40. > :14:41.of Her Majesty's Treasury given the more necessity fairious activities

:14:42. > :14:46.in the Scottish referendum campaign. My question today, Madam Deputy

:14:47. > :14:50.Speaker, is does this sort of material actually win the hearts and

:14:51. > :14:55.minds in a referendum campaign? And I don't think it does. I hear from

:14:56. > :14:59.the Labour benches that we lost the referendum of Scotland, and that is

:15:00. > :15:04.a matter of fact and record. That is absolutely true. That referendum

:15:05. > :15:09.campaign was launched with the 'Yes' campaign at 28% of the vote. The

:15:10. > :15:15.finishing vote for the 'Yes' campaign was 45%. This campaign in

:15:16. > :15:20.Europe has been launched with a much tighter margin between the two

:15:21. > :15:25.sides. If the remain campaign loses 1% a month during the campaign, then

:15:26. > :15:30.the result will not be as I or the honourable gentleman would wish.

:15:31. > :15:33.I'll give way. Isn't the reality that actually the right honourable

:15:34. > :15:37.member wants remain to lose because he then can get his agenda of having

:15:38. > :15:42.another referendum for independence within two years? And the fact is

:15:43. > :15:48.that his party are hardly doing anything at this moment to campaign

:15:49. > :15:50.to remain in the United Kingdom - for the United Kingdom to remain in

:15:51. > :15:56.the European Union. THE SPEAKER: Order. Can I just say,

:15:57. > :16:00.no, no, no, don't tell me. I need to let you know. Senior member you are,

:16:01. > :16:05.and a lot to offer, but you want to speak. I don't want to be the man

:16:06. > :16:09.that puts you to the bottom of the list. Between us, we can all get

:16:10. > :16:14.there, short interventions if you must will be better if you didn't.

:16:15. > :16:19.Alex. Thank you Mr Chairman. Can I say to the honourable member, he

:16:20. > :16:24.should really read today's familiar threat, the EU and you, released by

:16:25. > :16:28.the Scottish Government explaining in a considered and proper way why

:16:29. > :16:34.European Union membership is of benefit to Scotland. Not even the

:16:35. > :16:40.most rabid of the Leave campaign could describe that familiar threat

:16:41. > :16:45.today as -- pamphlet today as resellbling project fear, but it

:16:46. > :16:51.makes a considered case as to why EU membership is of benefit to

:16:52. > :16:57.Scotland. If he looks at the most recent polls, the ICM poll, on that

:16:58. > :17:04.poll for the UK today, the two sides are level on an online poll. On the

:17:05. > :17:07.ICM poll in Scotland, margin is two to one for remain. Does that not

:17:08. > :17:13.indicate, given that even the honourable gentleman will have

:17:14. > :17:16.noticed the diminishing fortunes of his party in Scotland and the rising

:17:17. > :17:21.fortunes of the SNP, does that not suggest in a way that the campaign

:17:22. > :17:25.we are conducting in Scotland is rather more successful in winning

:17:26. > :17:31.hearts and minds to the European cause than the campaign that's being

:17:32. > :17:36.conducted across the country. And a case in point would be the release

:17:37. > :17:42.of the Treasury statistics on the economy yesterday. The analysis, the

:17:43. > :17:46.expectations analysis, which expectations model is the ultimate

:17:47. > :17:52.model, garbage in, garbage out. You manufacture your result from your

:17:53. > :18:00.input to the model, suggesting a 3. 6% or 6% wipeout of GDP from a euro

:18:01. > :18:07.exit. No other credible forecaster is suggesting anything like that

:18:08. > :18:12.effect. Other suggestions 1. 3%, hang Kong and Shanghai bank, 1. 5,

:18:13. > :18:19.the National Institute for economic and social research, who use the

:18:20. > :18:27.Treasury model are suggesting 2. 3%. All of these are - by all means. The

:18:28. > :18:30.point he's making about project fear, I think it's terribly

:18:31. > :18:33.counterproductive. We should remember that those pedalling

:18:34. > :18:38.project fear are broadly the same group of people who predicted doom

:18:39. > :18:42.and gloom if we did not join the euro. So they have form. What I

:18:43. > :18:47.would say is there is one ray of hope. The leader of the Remain

:18:48. > :18:50.campaign has said if we were to leave the EU, better control of

:18:51. > :18:53.immigration for the sake of public services -

:18:54. > :18:55.THE SPEAKER: Order. No. I think now we're going to be serious with the

:18:56. > :19:00.House because members want to get in. I just mentioned on one side

:19:01. > :19:03.short interventions. Do not abuse the chair, because what you're doing

:19:04. > :19:06.is abusing colleagues on both sides. I don't think that's good for

:19:07. > :19:11.anybody. It's a debate. I want to get as many people in as possible.

:19:12. > :19:15.Ideally everybody. Alex Salmond. There's a bit of irony isn't it that

:19:16. > :19:20.those on the opposite side of the House who have been complaining

:19:21. > :19:24.loudly about project fear hardly raised a peep when the same campaign

:19:25. > :19:30.was conducted against the Scottish people some two years ago. So I

:19:31. > :19:35.would claim for the honourable gentleman, at least the ride of

:19:36. > :19:38.consistency on these matters. The point I'm making, for these

:19:39. > :19:43.established and credible forecasters are indicating enough of the

:19:44. > :19:48.economic damage that I believe would be done to this country through an

:19:49. > :19:53.exit, without having to manufacture and inflate statistics which

:19:54. > :19:59.actually bring the whole argument into disrepute. It is enough for

:20:00. > :20:03.people to know there'll be an economic impact, without trying to

:20:04. > :20:08.inflate that impact beyond what is reasonable. I would commend the

:20:09. > :20:11.Governor of the Bank of England who said, in terms of scenarios, they

:20:12. > :20:15.could possible include a technical recession. I believe the Bank of

:20:16. > :20:17.England has actually demonstrated through bodge the Scottish

:20:18. > :20:21.referendum and -- both the Scottish referendum and this current

:20:22. > :20:26.referendum campaign how public servants should behave in terms of

:20:27. > :20:32.offering information and considered analysis. So I think the major

:20:33. > :20:37.danger to the Remain campaign is not the arguments of the Leave campaign.

:20:38. > :20:41.The Leave campaign is fundamentally split between those who see the UK's

:20:42. > :20:50.future after an exit as a Switzerland or Norway, or those who

:20:51. > :20:54.think it can be some sort of transatlantic, it's a fundamental

:20:55. > :20:57.divide that cannot be resolved. The way to minimise damage from exit

:20:58. > :21:02.would be to adopt the Norwegian model. The majority of the Leave

:21:03. > :21:06.campaign will not subscribe to that. It brings with it accepting of the

:21:07. > :21:11.single market, of the various regulations and of course, free

:21:12. > :21:15.movement of Labour. -- labour. That is the fundamental problem with the

:21:16. > :21:20.Leave campaign. The Remain campaign across the UK, should at the present

:21:21. > :21:26.moment, be as far ahead as we are in Scotland. The fact that we are not

:21:27. > :21:29.is an indication that this campaign should be recalibrated to be one

:21:30. > :21:33.which starts to win the hearts and minds, which talks about some of the

:21:34. > :21:40.issues that the Foreign Secretary alluded to. That after 66 years,

:21:41. > :21:44.since the Shuman declaration, we can that European Union has contributed

:21:45. > :21:48.to peace, stability and prosperity across Europe. Over that time,

:21:49. > :21:53.building a single market of 500 people is no mean achievement. And

:21:54. > :21:56.for this side of the chamber in particular, the social gains to

:21:57. > :22:00.every family and to every trade Unionist in this country, the things

:22:01. > :22:05.the Government don't like to talk about are a very, very substantial

:22:06. > :22:10.reason for not leaving the EU behind. But I would also add to the

:22:11. > :22:14.credibility of our arguments, if we were able to accept, as indeed the

:22:15. > :22:19.leader of the Opposition did in his speech, that the problems and

:22:20. > :22:25.difficulties that people have with the European Union. I suggested on

:22:26. > :22:30.the 11th of May to the Prime Minister in a letter that it might

:22:31. > :22:33.enhance the support for the Remain campaign with one group in Scotland,

:22:34. > :22:38.who have huge scepticism, the fishing community. Because of all

:22:39. > :22:41.European Union policies, which could be considered disastrous, the Common

:22:42. > :22:47.Fisheries Policy is the greatest disaster of all European policies. I

:22:48. > :22:52.suggested that the Prime Minister consider suggesting over next year's

:22:53. > :22:57.presidency of the European Council by the UK that the Scottish

:22:58. > :23:03.fisheries minister has 60% of the landing should cochair the Council

:23:04. > :23:07.with the UK fisheries minister. A matter, incidentally, which the

:23:08. > :23:11.Prime Minister was very open to when he came to office in 20 #10, as

:23:12. > :23:16.indeed was the Foreign Secretary's predecessor, William Hague. I asked

:23:17. > :23:24.him, suggested that a response to that invitation would be helpful to

:23:25. > :23:30.my former constituents before purdah in three days' time. I was delighted

:23:31. > :23:33.to receive a letter last week from the correspondence officer of the

:23:34. > :23:37.direct communication unit unnamed at Downing Street saying that my

:23:38. > :23:41.request was being considered. But I would hope that the Foreign

:23:42. > :23:46.Secretary today, if he's genuinely interested in strengthening the

:23:47. > :23:54.position of the Remain campaign, might indicate to fishing

:23:55. > :23:57.communities in Scotland that their needs will take advantage of the

:23:58. > :24:01.European Council president in order to iron out many of the difficulties

:24:02. > :24:05.in the current regulations. Many of us on this side of the House would

:24:06. > :24:11.have wished the Government to address the fears that many of our

:24:12. > :24:15.constituents have about T-tip without being forced by an

:24:16. > :24:20.Opposition amendment. These are genuine fears that a court process

:24:21. > :24:26.may allow an aggressive intervention in the national Health Service.

:24:27. > :24:33.I had a meeting with the Baltic states and Scandinavian ambassadors

:24:34. > :24:38.last week. They were indicating to me that when this Government took

:24:39. > :24:42.office, then they invested great hopes in the Prime Minister's

:24:43. > :24:48.Northerner agenda in the reform agenda at that time he was putting

:24:49. > :24:55.forward for the EU. But the view and belief is that has been deflected

:24:56. > :25:00.into this referendum, which is about British exceptionalism as opposed to

:25:01. > :25:07.a genuine reform of the European institutions. My submission is that

:25:08. > :25:12.a campaign which will endorse and have an enthusiastic response which

:25:13. > :25:19.won't allow the danger of different tool voting between an integer attic

:25:20. > :25:24.Brexit tea and those who are cowed into submission by the Government's

:25:25. > :25:27.project fear. It campaign that will mobilise people to the polling

:25:28. > :25:31.stations will be one that means the Government will have to rise above

:25:32. > :25:36.the campaign they are fighting so far and actually make a positive

:25:37. > :25:45.case for the EU that will get people out of their houses and into the

:25:46. > :25:49.polling stations. It is a great pleasure to be able to participate

:25:50. > :25:52.in this debate on the gracious speech. If I may say to my

:25:53. > :25:57.honourable friend the Foreign Secretary it was an immense breadth

:25:58. > :26:02.-- pleasure to hear him present and articulated in such clear terms

:26:03. > :26:07.Conservative principles of international engagement, in

:26:08. > :26:12.particular are at hearings to a rules -based international system.

:26:13. > :26:16.We have a long tradition in this and it is perhaps one of our greatest

:26:17. > :26:21.offerings to the world and I want to return to that in a few moments. The

:26:22. > :26:26.hero Dixon added in the way that he did seemed to me to put it

:26:27. > :26:33.absolutely with crystal clarity that the UK sees it self as being part of

:26:34. > :26:38.the creation of a rules -based system that helps maintain values

:26:39. > :26:45.and further freedom, democracy and the rule of law. I have no doubt

:26:46. > :26:51.that as we meet we are facing in terms of promoting those values are

:26:52. > :26:56.really serious challenges. Whether it is from Russia, which appears to

:26:57. > :27:00.be in some respects descending into being a gangster state when it comes

:27:01. > :27:05.to it grows violations of international law, or the Middle

:27:06. > :27:10.East in its anarchy, it is quite clear that on our doorstep and very

:27:11. > :27:15.close to us and capable of affecting us, there are a whole series of

:27:16. > :27:21.processes taking place that quite frankly on any analysis would appear

:27:22. > :27:26.to be retrograde. That, I think, must inform the entire way in which

:27:27. > :27:32.we look at how we pursue our own policies. I am delighted that the

:27:33. > :27:37.Government has made progress on the investigatory Powers Bill in

:27:38. > :27:42.committee. I recognise that it is absolutely essential that we should

:27:43. > :27:48.have the tools to protect ourselves properly against those who see to do

:27:49. > :27:52.us harm. The bill is assuredly, I understand, to return to this has

:27:53. > :27:59.four report stage and I very much hope will be able make further

:28:00. > :28:03.progress there so as to ensure that the Government's completely

:28:04. > :28:07.legitimate aims of protecting us all in this country can be reconciled

:28:08. > :28:11.with some of the concerns people have about personal liberty. I am

:28:12. > :28:15.convinced they can be, and I look forward to playing a part in that

:28:16. > :28:18.process when the bill comes to this house, I have no doubt with other

:28:19. > :28:25.members of the intelligence occurred deep committee that I have the

:28:26. > :28:29.privilege to chair. I also take an interest in the extremism bill.

:28:30. > :28:37.Here, I have to say to my honourable friend Home Secretary that I do have

:28:38. > :28:41.a -- considerable concerns of how this will be framed in practice, so

:28:42. > :28:45.as to reconcile the rights of freedom of expression even when

:28:46. > :28:50.those matters being expressed are ones with which we heartily

:28:51. > :28:54.disagree. I think we have to be very careful, there is a tendency within

:28:55. > :28:57.democracy, perhaps for understandable reasons of electoral

:28:58. > :29:03.advantage at times, that we stay silent in the face of comments which

:29:04. > :29:06.are made which with we may disagree but nevertheless would like to at

:29:07. > :29:10.least encourage people to consider giving us their support. The

:29:11. > :29:18.problems with legislation of this kind is that they mice both and

:29:19. > :29:21.habitat -- antagonise and suddenly free us as parliamentarian from the

:29:22. > :29:26.judges of challenging people to express points of view which in

:29:27. > :29:29.practice are incompatible with the furtherance and survival of

:29:30. > :29:32.democracy. We need to look to ourselves and what we do as

:29:33. > :29:41.parliamentarians just as much as we need to look to any legislation

:29:42. > :29:45.which we seek to enact. That brings me to the two he points out like to

:29:46. > :29:53.make about this issue of rules -based international systems. It is

:29:54. > :29:58.the UK's principal gift to the world. I once asked an office how

:29:59. > :30:03.many treaties we had signed up to and although they were reluctant to

:30:04. > :30:09.go back beyond 1834, they accepted that since then we had signed up

:30:10. > :30:14.over 13,000, which were still extant. Over 700 have arbitral

:30:15. > :30:19.mechanisms within them for resolving disputes with the UK undertakes to

:30:20. > :30:27.accept the binding judgment of the tribunal or arbitrator in respect of

:30:28. > :30:30.them. The EU treaties, of course, and the European Convention on human

:30:31. > :30:35.rights, are no different from any of the others when it comes to the

:30:36. > :30:44.intentions behind the UK in having signed up to it. What are we to make

:30:45. > :30:48.of some of my colleagues in parliament who, for example, say

:30:49. > :30:53.that not only do they want the UK to withdraw from the European Union,

:30:54. > :30:57.but that when we have had a vote, which they hope will support it, we

:30:58. > :31:04.should not take the unlawful root of invoking Article 50 of the European

:31:05. > :31:09.Union treaty but should merely legislate in Parliament to delete

:31:10. > :31:15.those aspects of the treaty that appear to be owners or incompatible

:31:16. > :31:19.with our own views. Actually, advocating something that is no

:31:20. > :31:24.different from the President Putin saying it is legitimate to our next

:31:25. > :31:31.the Crimea because the Russian Duma has said it is an acceptable thing

:31:32. > :31:35.to do. That is the reality of some, I emphasise Essam, of the very

:31:36. > :31:38.strained utterances that we are hearing on the course of this debate

:31:39. > :31:43.on the referendum on the European Union. -- I emphasised some. Not

:31:44. > :31:50.only policies on the future but I will enlist -- at willingness to

:31:51. > :31:53.date of its suggestions that the UK should adopt an archaic approach to

:31:54. > :31:59.our international obligations. That brings me to my principal point,

:32:00. > :32:08.that in the gracious beach there is a further reference to enacting a

:32:09. > :32:13.bill of rights. I would like to make clear that there may be arguments

:32:14. > :32:19.why the UK might profitably seek to have a Bill of Rights. As time goes

:32:20. > :32:22.by I begin to think that the changes, particularly the widespread

:32:23. > :32:27.constitutional changes as a result of devolution, are such a character

:32:28. > :32:34.that providing a constitutional framework in which that can operate

:32:35. > :32:36.might be of merit, but I recognise that as an enormous task to take on

:32:37. > :32:46.an adult criticise my honourable friends in Government to remark upon

:32:47. > :32:50.it. I do see that a bill of rights might play a key role and it was

:32:51. > :32:53.discussed with might have a Bill of Rights back in the early 1990s

:32:54. > :33:00.before we decided to enact the Human Rights Act. But I confess it is

:33:01. > :33:03.quite clear that that is not, I think, what my colleagues in

:33:04. > :33:09.Government have in mind. Indeed, part of the problem it is very

:33:10. > :33:13.unclear what they do have in mind, but it's certainly not that. It

:33:14. > :33:21.appears to range from some minor cosmetic changes to the Human Rights

:33:22. > :33:23.Act to which I would simply echo the expression of view of might

:33:24. > :33:26.honourable friend the member for Rushcliffe that if that is really

:33:27. > :33:35.what is intended, what on earth is the point? To suggestions that

:33:36. > :33:40.radical change can be affected to the Human Rights Act and to the text

:33:41. > :33:44.of the convention which, as far as I can see, would then almost

:33:45. > :33:50.automatically place us in breach of our obligations under the European

:33:51. > :33:53.Convention. The European Convention is certainly not a perfect document

:33:54. > :33:57.that I have no doubt its interpretation by the European board

:33:58. > :34:02.of human rights has at times been imperfect as well. But, bluntly,

:34:03. > :34:08.which constitutes without the slightest doubt in my view the

:34:09. > :34:13.single most important lever that has ever been devised on this planet for

:34:14. > :34:23.improving human rights, not only in Europe, but also worldwide. The UK's

:34:24. > :34:27.ambivalent position to the convention is doing us immense

:34:28. > :34:32.reputational damage and I have to say is also damaging the

:34:33. > :34:37.effectiveness of the convention. The UK's position being invoked by Mr

:34:38. > :34:41.Putin to justify Russian intransigence and implementing

:34:42. > :34:46.European Court of Human Rights judgments or, indeed, in the past

:34:47. > :34:49.the president of Kenya in justifying failure to cooperate with the

:34:50. > :34:57.International criminal Court, which is at the centre of my honourable

:34:58. > :35:00.friend's the Foreign Secretary's efforts in promoting human rights

:35:01. > :35:05.worldwide. There are other examples as well, including by other

:35:06. > :35:10.signatory states like the Ukraine. So we have to keep in mind as we

:35:11. > :35:15.debate this matter and as the Government proceeds to consider what

:35:16. > :35:18.to do about a bill of rights that this is not an internal

:35:19. > :35:21.conversation, it is one that goes to the very heart of the principles

:35:22. > :35:27.that my honourable friend the Foreign Secretary so clearly set

:35:28. > :35:32.out. And I do have concerns that this debate should be conducted in a

:35:33. > :35:38.way that reflects that, that reflects the immense changes that

:35:39. > :35:42.have been taking place, you're being modest about it, thanks to the

:35:43. > :35:47.efforts of my honourable friend the member for Rushcliffe. He actually

:35:48. > :35:51.looks at how the convention is operating today and is being applied

:35:52. > :35:56.today in this country through the Human Rights Act, not just at how it

:35:57. > :36:02.was being applied ten years ago. If we keep that in mind we may come up

:36:03. > :36:05.with some sensible conclusions. Although I would urge upon my

:36:06. > :36:10.colleagues on the front bench that any consultation period on this

:36:11. > :36:17.should be long enough to enable us all to consider and participate in

:36:18. > :36:20.it fully. With that in mind, I am pleased, really pleased, to hear the

:36:21. > :36:23.way in which, as I say, the Government article it at its

:36:24. > :36:29.adherence to a national rules -based systems afternoon. It brought me

:36:30. > :36:34.into the Conservative Party, although our adherence and belief is

:36:35. > :36:38.not exclusive to us. It is probably shared widely across the house. In

:36:39. > :36:43.those circumstances we need to uphold it and if we do that we will

:36:44. > :36:45.come up with the right conclusions English is to legislation that is

:36:46. > :36:52.being proposed by the Government for this session. -- in relation to

:36:53. > :36:56.legislation. I would like to set a few words about the counter

:36:57. > :37:01.extremism bill and the question of human rights. First, I want to pay

:37:02. > :37:06.tribute to the speech of his Shadow Foreign Secretary, which I strongly

:37:07. > :37:09.agreed with. It was a speech that was profound, principled and

:37:10. > :37:12.progressive and I want to say that in thinking that I'm wanting some

:37:13. > :37:17.sort of promotion because I'm so beyond that at this point, I thought

:37:18. > :37:22.it was a really exceptionally good speech and I think he does a great

:37:23. > :37:26.deal of credit to our party and also to this house and to politics. I

:37:27. > :37:29.thank him for what he said and I'm glad to have the option to Giorgi

:37:30. > :37:34.speech of the Right Honourable member for Rushcliffe. He is a

:37:35. > :37:43.weighty member of this house, speaking as he does as a former Home

:37:44. > :37:45.Secretary, former Justice Secretary, former Health Secretary, former

:37:46. > :37:53.Chancellor of the Exchequer. He is well and truly a four-man. And I

:37:54. > :37:57.agreed with off a lot of what he said, in fact, everything he said

:37:58. > :38:00.about prison reform and Europe, which I find quite traumatic since

:38:01. > :38:03.when I was first in the house he was sitting in Margaret Thatcher's

:38:04. > :38:09.cabinet and therefore was not to be agreed with an anything, but I did

:38:10. > :38:15.agree with what he said. I too find myself to be elevated to these

:38:16. > :38:20.staters of a former, although not as weighty as he is. I do sense that in

:38:21. > :38:24.this house that one of the things about formers is we must crack on

:38:25. > :38:30.with our speeches and not make them too long. I will make just two

:38:31. > :38:35.points. That is a reference to the member for Gordon, not the member

:38:36. > :38:39.for Beaconsfield or Rushcliffe. Two measures are weekly bus makes speech

:38:40. > :38:43.that I want to mention. First the category streamers and Bill and I

:38:44. > :38:46.have the privilege of being the chair of the joint committee on

:38:47. > :38:49.human rights and I'm glad to see the honourable member forgot the North

:38:50. > :38:52.was on the committee with a particular interest in mental health

:38:53. > :38:57.and human rights is here in the chamber. The Government has a duty

:38:58. > :39:02.to protect us, responsibility that any and every Government takes with

:39:03. > :39:06.the utmost seriousness. That is undoubtedly contested ground. When

:39:07. > :39:11.it comes to how to tackle terrorism and specifically the task of

:39:12. > :39:16.countering Daesh inspired terrorism there is no consensus. The

:39:17. > :39:19.Government's approach appears as it set out in the counter extremism

:39:20. > :39:22.strategy to be based on the assumption that there is no

:39:23. > :39:26.disclosure that starts with religious conservatism and ends up

:39:27. > :39:31.with support for Jihad is. And therefore its religious conservatism

:39:32. > :39:34.that is the starting point for the quest to tackle violence. It is by

:39:35. > :39:39.no means proved or agreed that extreme religious views and

:39:40. > :39:43.religious conservatism in particular are in and of themselves an

:39:44. > :39:48.indicator of or correlated with support for jihad is.

:39:49. > :39:55.If there are to be banning orders, disruption orders and closure

:39:56. > :40:00.orders, it has to be clear they are banning disruption, closing

:40:01. > :40:03.something which is going to lead to violence, not just something of

:40:04. > :40:07.which the Government disapproves. The second issue is if the

:40:08. > :40:12.Government is going to clamp down on Islamic religious conservatism in

:40:13. > :40:18.terms of tackling violence, is that discrimination that can be justified

:40:19. > :40:22.or will it serve merely to give rise to justified grievance? Everyone

:40:23. > :40:26.seems to agree that the most precious asset in the fight against

:40:27. > :40:30.terrorism is ablation ship between the authorities, the police,

:40:31. > :40:35.schools, councils, and the Muslim communities of this country. We must

:40:36. > :40:38.guard against any undermining of the relationship between the authorities

:40:39. > :40:42.on the Muslim community which would thereby make the fight against

:40:43. > :40:47.terrorism even harder. The last thing we must do with anything which

:40:48. > :40:51.fosters the alienation which can lead to radicalisation. The third

:40:52. > :40:56.issue is the problem of taking religious conservative views in the

:40:57. > :41:03.Muslim community as a feature of terrorism, if the same beliefs in

:41:04. > :41:07.evangelical, Christian or Orthodox Judaism would not be seen as

:41:08. > :41:11.prompting the need for any action. Is the Government going to

:41:12. > :41:17.discriminate and seek to justify that, or will it be indiscriminate

:41:18. > :41:23.and annoy and concern everybody? The fourth issue is the question of

:41:24. > :41:29.definition, and this was hinted at by the member for Gillingham in his

:41:30. > :41:37.intervention. Even where, even word there reliable evidence of extreme

:41:38. > :41:43.views into violence, if the law is to be invoked, there needs to be

:41:44. > :41:48.clarity and consensus around the definition. It is far from clear

:41:49. > :41:52.that there is an accepted affirmation of what constitutes

:41:53. > :41:58.nonviolent extremism, or indeed, it is extremism. In the counter

:41:59. > :42:02.extremism strategy the Government described extremism as the vocal or

:42:03. > :42:08.active opposition to our fundamental values, including democracy, the

:42:09. > :42:13.rule of law, individual liberty and the mutual respect of tolerance of

:42:14. > :42:19.different faiths and beliefs. Now, I am not tolerant of the beliefs of

:42:20. > :42:26.those who are homophobic. I do not respect those who regard women as

:42:27. > :42:30.inferior. Which is the extremism, their beliefs or my intolerance of

:42:31. > :42:37.their beliefs? If you'd announce our judiciary as biased Islamophobics,

:42:38. > :42:42.is that undermining the rule of law or the exercise of your free speech?

:42:43. > :42:46.In the past I have done a fair amount of denouncing the judiciary

:42:47. > :42:50.for all sorts of things in the past, but I wouldn't have regarded myself

:42:51. > :42:56.as extremist, just pointing out that they were sexist and needed to be

:42:57. > :43:00.replaced by many more women judges. Anyway, the fifth issue is whether

:43:01. > :43:06.it is better to suppress views or express them to challenge. Many in

:43:07. > :43:09.the higher education sector say they believe it is better to challenge

:43:10. > :43:14.abhorrent views than suppress them, but do you allow the same approach

:43:15. > :43:18.for school-aged children? Some have argued it simply should be seen as a

:43:19. > :43:23.question of child safeguarding when it comes to children. But whilst

:43:24. > :43:27.there is a consensus around the nature of child neglect or physical

:43:28. > :43:32.abuse, or sexual abuse from which children have to be safeguarded,

:43:33. > :43:35.there is no such consensus around the definition of extremism, from

:43:36. > :43:39.which children should be safeguarded. We can all understand

:43:40. > :43:43.the definition of safeguarding, it's just a question of what you are

:43:44. > :43:48.safeguarding children from and in relation to extremism, there is no

:43:49. > :43:52.such shared consensus definition. The difficulty around these issues

:43:53. > :43:56.should lead to the to trade with great great care. They should

:43:57. > :43:59.publish the Bill in draft and allow extensive debate and discussion for

:44:00. > :44:03.some we should listen with particular attention to those who

:44:04. > :44:08.would be expected to apply for these orders and enforce these orders, the

:44:09. > :44:13.police, X education establishments and councils. We should listen with

:44:14. > :44:16.particular attention to those in the Muslim community. Next I would like

:44:17. > :44:21.to turn very briefly to the issue of the question of the repeal of the

:44:22. > :44:26.Human Rights Act, replacing it with the British Bill of Rights, which I

:44:27. > :44:29.completely agree with the right honourable member for Beaconsfield

:44:30. > :44:34.with everything he said on this. We haven't yet seen the consultation,

:44:35. > :44:37.but when we do, it will be important for the Government to tread very

:44:38. > :44:45.carefully on this as well. The Government should ensure human

:44:46. > :44:49.rights remain universal, not just those who are popular and carving

:44:50. > :44:53.out against those who are unpopular. Legal protection of human rights is

:44:54. > :44:56.important for everyone, even those who are justifiably the subject of

:44:57. > :45:00.public hostility. The Government shouldn't do anything that makes it

:45:01. > :45:04.more difficult for people here to enforce their rights in the UK

:45:05. > :45:07.courts, which is something the right honourable member for Rushcliffe

:45:08. > :45:17.said. I myself had to trek all the way to Strasberg to get my human

:45:18. > :45:22.rights. The Government must do nothing which would disrupt the

:45:23. > :45:26.devolution settlement in Scotland or the peace agreement in Northern

:45:27. > :45:31.Ireland, in which the Human Rights Act is part. This was made clear to

:45:32. > :45:34.us on our visit to Scotland and evidence submitted to us by Northern

:45:35. > :45:38.Ireland. As the Foreign Secretary acknowledged, this country is seen

:45:39. > :45:45.as a champion of human rights around the world. The Government should be

:45:46. > :45:49.mindful of how what we in the UK do affects those in other countries who

:45:50. > :45:53.are fighting for their rights and don't have the democracy and the

:45:54. > :46:00.rights that we have in this country. Our adherence to international

:46:01. > :46:04.standard of human rights, for example the European Convention, our

:46:05. > :46:07.adherence to that international framework is a beacon which those

:46:08. > :46:10.campaigning for rights in other countries look to demand in their

:46:11. > :46:14.own countries. This was made absolutely clear to us when we went

:46:15. > :46:18.to visit the Parliamentary assembly of the Council of Europe in

:46:19. > :46:23.Strasbourg. People said, whether it was from Poland or Russia, if you

:46:24. > :46:27.leave the European Convention we are done for, basically. If our