08/06/2016

:00:11. > :00:22.Order! Urgent question,. Th`nk you, Mr Speaker. To ask the Chancellor of

:00:23. > :00:27.the Duchy of Lancaster if hd will make a statement on the reghstration

:00:28. > :00:33.website just before the deadline for voter registration for the DU

:00:34. > :00:37.referendum. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I am grateful for the opportunity to

:00:38. > :00:43.be able to set out the Government's position. Whatever your view on the

:00:44. > :00:50.question on the ballot paper on the 23rd of June, or anybody else's the

:00:51. > :00:53.EU referendum is a very important moment in our democracy. Ovdr the

:00:54. > :01:02.past three months before and a half million people have applied to

:01:03. > :01:05.register to vote. -- 4.5 million. They have been successfully handled

:01:06. > :01:12.by the system, and in the l`st week alone over 1 million people have

:01:13. > :01:18.applied. Yesterday, 525,000 people successfully completed their

:01:19. > :01:22.application. This is a record. And at its peak yesterday, the website

:01:23. > :01:27.was handling three times thd volume of applications compared to the

:01:28. > :01:33.previous record peak which was just before the General Election last

:01:34. > :01:37.year. My strong view, and the view of the Government, is that `nyone

:01:38. > :01:44.eligible should be able to register to vote in the EU referendul. But,

:01:45. > :01:47.unfortunately, due to this unprecedented demands, they were

:01:48. > :01:54.problems with the website from 10:15pm last night. To give the

:01:55. > :01:59.house a sense of the scale of the demands, the peak before thd 20 5

:02:00. > :02:07.General Election was 74,000 applications per hour, last night to

:02:08. > :02:14.the system protest 214,000 per hour at its peak before it crashdd. Many

:02:15. > :02:19.who apply to register after 10: 5pm were successful, but many wdre not.

:02:20. > :02:23.And be problems with the website were then resolved around the

:02:24. > :02:28.deadline at midnight. We ard urgently looking at all opthons and

:02:29. > :02:33.talking to the electoral colmission about how we can extend the deadline

:02:34. > :02:38.for applying to register to vote in the EU referendum. The webshte is

:02:39. > :02:42.now open and working, and wd strongly encourage people to

:02:43. > :02:48.register to vote online. Anxone who has already registered does not need

:02:49. > :02:52.to submit a fresh application. We are also offering extra resources to

:02:53. > :02:57.electoral registration officers to cover any additional administrative

:02:58. > :03:01.costs. Mr Speaker, a huge alount of work has gone into encouraghng

:03:02. > :03:06.people to register to vote hn a timely fashion. We began thd drive

:03:07. > :03:13.ahead of the May elections, from the middle of April we began in earnest

:03:14. > :03:16.you wrote registration, govdrnment departments, local authorithes have

:03:17. > :03:22.all helped boost voter registration. I want to pay tribute to thd work of

:03:23. > :03:27.all of them, everyone from Hdris Elba to Emma Watson and all others

:03:28. > :03:32.who have been involved. We `re targeting and are registered groups

:03:33. > :03:36.and we have seen high numbers registering throughout the last few

:03:37. > :03:39.weeks. It is in all our intdrests to ensure that as many people `s

:03:40. > :03:41.possible are able to vote in one of the most important moments hn our

:03:42. > :03:51.democracy in a generation. Last night, tens of thousands of

:03:52. > :03:56.people trying to exercise their democratic right to register to vote

:03:57. > :03:58.were told the computer says no. I welcome the announcement today that

:03:59. > :04:04.people should continue to rdgister to vote and that their applhcations

:04:05. > :04:08.will be valid. However, we `re no clearer as to how the government

:04:09. > :04:12.plans to make this happen and what the new deadline for registration

:04:13. > :04:16.is. I want to offer the govdrnment Labour's complete support across

:04:17. > :04:22.both houses to do whatever ht takes to get any necessary legisl`tion

:04:23. > :04:26.through. This should be dond today. What legislative options ard open to

:04:27. > :04:30.the government and is one of the options being considered a statutory

:04:31. > :04:35.instrument which could be officially scrutinised today? What is the new

:04:36. > :04:38.deadline to register to votd? People need complete clarity on how long

:04:39. > :04:45.they now have left and it ndeds to be well advertised. Last night's

:04:46. > :04:48.chaos was totally unacceptable. What stress testing was not done on the

:04:49. > :04:52.website in advance and what provisions were made for thd

:04:53. > :04:57.predictable rise in traffic? What will be done about postal votes

:04:58. > :05:03.given the deadline is 5pm today but is only available to those on the

:05:04. > :05:06.register? Can he confirmed this will also be extended? You would never

:05:07. > :05:13.expect to be turned away from a puzzling station despite behng in

:05:14. > :05:18.the queue. -- polling stations. We need clear answers on how they can

:05:19. > :05:24.still make their voices heard. Thank you very much. First of all, I am

:05:25. > :05:29.grateful for her clear and unambiguous support from thd Labour

:05:30. > :05:35.benches, for action if necessary legislative league, to put this

:05:36. > :05:39.right. And the support in both houses will be an important issue if

:05:40. > :05:45.we come to emergency legisl`tion that we need to get through. We are

:05:46. > :05:49.looking at legislative options, including secondary legislation and

:05:50. > :05:54.I look forward to taking those at. We need to make sure that wd get the

:05:55. > :06:00.details of any emergency legislation exactly right since we have got to

:06:01. > :06:03.pass it at pace. On the deadline that she mentioned, people should

:06:04. > :06:08.register to vote now. Those registrations will be captured by

:06:09. > :06:13.the system and then we have the legal question of whether c`ptured

:06:14. > :06:19.applications can be eligibld for the 23rd of June and that is thd issue

:06:20. > :06:27.that we will deal with potentially in legislation. People are saying

:06:28. > :06:33.opposite, what is a deadlind? I am absolutely clear, people should

:06:34. > :06:37.register now, today, and we will bring further information as and

:06:38. > :06:44.when we can. On the question she raised on stress tests, we did of

:06:45. > :06:51.course undertake stress tests, we tested to a higher level, a

:06:52. > :06:53.significantly higher level of interest and applications than at

:06:54. > :07:00.the general election last ydar, which is the best comparator but, as

:07:01. > :07:04.I said, the level of interest was significantly higher than the peak

:07:05. > :07:10.then and it is because of this exceptional demand that the website

:07:11. > :07:14.crashed and, ultimately, thhs is a problem that is born out of the flat

:07:15. > :07:20.that thousands and thousands and hundreds of thousands of people are

:07:21. > :07:23.wanting to vote. I think thd interest that shows in exprdssing

:07:24. > :07:34.their democratic wishes is to be commended. First, may I comlend the

:07:35. > :07:37.government and my right honourable friend for so successfully dngaging

:07:38. > :07:42.millions of people to register and vote in this referendum. But I am

:07:43. > :07:46.afraid the problems he has encountered are born out of the fact

:07:47. > :07:50.that the government has been ill-prepared and the Electoral

:07:51. > :07:54.Commission have been ill prdpared for this surge of registrathons The

:07:55. > :07:58.government spent millions of pounds on promoting this so they should

:07:59. > :08:03.have been prepared. We have a cut-off in our legislation because

:08:04. > :08:10.the register has to be finalised and published six days before the

:08:11. > :08:16.referendum. Five days beford, any name on the register can be

:08:17. > :08:21.challenged for the first five days it is on the register. That leaves

:08:22. > :08:25.very little time for anything like legislation. Can I advise hhm that

:08:26. > :08:30.it is probably illegal to kdep the site open for a short period, a few

:08:31. > :08:35.hours, to capture those who did not have the opportunity to reghster

:08:36. > :08:39.yesterday, but any idea of rewriting the rules in any substantial way

:08:40. > :08:43.would be complete madness and make this country look like an absolute

:08:44. > :08:47.shambles in the run-up to this referendum, which is such an

:08:48. > :08:52.important decision. Will we keep this in mind or risk judici`l

:08:53. > :08:56.review? There is no entitlelent for the chair of a Select Committee in

:08:57. > :09:03.these matters to deliver an operation. A short question is what

:09:04. > :09:09.is required. If people could be pithy from now on, that would help.

:09:10. > :09:14.We prepared extensively for a peak in registrations. The extent of the

:09:15. > :09:22.interest in registering was unprecedented. On the point he makes

:09:23. > :09:29.about the length of period for which registrations may be valid hn future

:09:30. > :09:34.in any legislative measure we bring forward, he suggests it shotld be a

:09:35. > :09:37.short period and I agree. This is to rectify the problem of people not

:09:38. > :09:44.being able to vote last night and so we will bring forward proposals most

:09:45. > :09:55.likely with that short period in mind. I don't think we can

:09:56. > :09:59.understate the seriousness of what is this very great catastrophe that

:10:00. > :10:04.has happened. If we go ahead to consult the people of this country

:10:05. > :10:09.on such important decision for the first time in 40 years and denied

:10:10. > :10:12.tens of thousands of our citizens the ability to participate, I think

:10:13. > :10:17.that will tarnish and call hnto question the entire process. It is

:10:18. > :10:22.not enough to come here and say the registration is open and it is OK

:10:23. > :10:25.for people to continue to rdgister, we need an assurance that pdople who

:10:26. > :10:31.register today and from now on are going to be able to vote on the 23rd

:10:32. > :10:34.of June. I would have hoped he would have come here today not just say

:10:35. > :10:39.there might be need for leghslation, we want to see it. Bring forward the

:10:40. > :10:44.emergency measures and you will have the support of these benches in

:10:45. > :10:48.making that happen. I welcole the support from the honourable member.

:10:49. > :10:51.In terms of bringing forward legislation, we are still in

:10:52. > :10:56.discussions with the Electoral Commission. They have put ott a

:10:57. > :11:00.letter saying they would support a legislative approach and I warmly

:11:01. > :11:05.welcome that. In terms of what has led us here, it is important to

:11:06. > :11:08.remember that it is because of the unprecedented success of our

:11:09. > :11:12.registration drive that led to the amount of people trying to register

:11:13. > :11:21.late last night that caused the technical problems in the fhrst

:11:22. > :11:25.place. It is because the Prhme Minister debated with the Ldave

:11:26. > :11:30.aside at 9pm last night that caused a surge in people wanting to vote at

:11:31. > :11:34.10pm. Just extending for a short time would be far better th`n trying

:11:35. > :11:38.to bring through Russian legislation. David a few hotrs

:11:39. > :11:47.today, gives people notice of it, and get on with it. Any extdnsion

:11:48. > :11:52.requires legislative action. That is our understanding of the law and it

:11:53. > :11:56.is the Electoral Commission's understanding of the law and so in

:11:57. > :12:03.order to do exactly what shd proposes, that would requird

:12:04. > :12:08.legislation. Mr Dennis Skinner. This is an emergency without any doubt at

:12:09. > :12:16.all. We are talking about a few hours' time available. If the

:12:17. > :12:23.opposition were prepared to allocate one half of their opposition day to

:12:24. > :12:29.day, would he give a guarantee that that opposition would be given back?

:12:30. > :12:40.I am sure the front bench opposite is grateful for his kind offer. In

:12:41. > :12:48.order for people's registrations to allow them to vote on the 23rd of

:12:49. > :12:52.June, we would need to legislate. If that legislation takes placd

:12:53. > :12:57.tomorrow, that can allow registrations made today to be valid

:12:58. > :13:01.for the vote on the 23rd of June, therefore the message from the Prime

:13:02. > :13:05.Minister and from me, which is incredibly clear, is if people

:13:06. > :13:09.haven't been able to registdr to vote, they should register to vote

:13:10. > :13:17.now and it is incumbent on `ll members in this House took continue

:13:18. > :13:21.to stay that if people want to vote in the referendum on the 23rd of

:13:22. > :13:31.June and they are not yet registered, they should reghster

:13:32. > :13:34.now. Damian Green. I congratulate the Minister on the flexibility he

:13:35. > :13:38.and the government are showhng and I am pleased so many people w`nt to

:13:39. > :13:42.register, particularly young people as they are very enthusiasthc, by

:13:43. > :13:48.and large, about remaining hn the EU. Can I ask him when he is

:13:49. > :13:54.considering the final deadlhne that what should not happen now hs a very

:13:55. > :13:58.short deadline be announced, just in case the same thing happens again.

:13:59. > :14:03.The system has to be able to cope with what might be another surge. A

:14:04. > :14:08.deadline of a few hours I stspect would be ill-advised. As he can

:14:09. > :14:11.imagine, we are putting in place measures to make sure that the

:14:12. > :14:19.system has yet more capacitx in case there is further high interdst

:14:20. > :14:22.because of the news around this potential extension, which we want

:14:23. > :14:28.to see and the Electoral Colmission want to see. On the point about the

:14:29. > :14:32.deadline, there is a very ilportant, practical consideration which the

:14:33. > :14:38.chair of the Select Committde set out very clearly, which is that from

:14:39. > :14:40.the closure of the registration for the referendum, electoral

:14:41. > :14:44.registration offices to then have to make sure that the electoral roll is

:14:45. > :14:49.correct, so it is important that there is enough time for th`t to

:14:50. > :14:50.happen. Any extension would be for a short time rather than for ` long

:14:51. > :15:02.time. The honourable gentleman is smiling

:15:03. > :15:09.benevolently at me but I wotld happily call him anyway. Mr Alex

:15:10. > :15:15.Salmond. In 2014 we achieved a 8 present registration in Scotland and

:15:16. > :15:20.an 85% turn out with no collapse in a website or registration and no

:15:21. > :15:23.difficulty at the polling stations. However, we were starting from a

:15:24. > :15:27.position where hundreds of thousands of our fellow citizens have been

:15:28. > :15:31.disenfranchised by the procdss of individual registration and the lack

:15:32. > :15:35.of electoral campus. The government were not worried about that because

:15:36. > :15:43.they were mostly young people and they were not going to vote for them

:15:44. > :15:47.anyway. Now he is. It is a shame to bring a note of discord to what was

:15:48. > :15:52.otherwise a reasonably consdnsual discussion. If it was not for our

:15:53. > :15:57.online voter registration sxstem, people would not be able to vote to

:15:58. > :16:02.a midnight deadline at all. It is because of the success of h`ving

:16:03. > :16:07.online registration and the huge demand for participation in this

:16:08. > :16:14.incredibly important that wd have got this and the website collapsed.

:16:15. > :16:19.What I would say is that thd United Kingdom is much larger than just

:16:20. > :16:24.Scotland, the scale of the challenge is much more significant and it is

:16:25. > :16:30.very important. That is why we are taking the action to mature that

:16:31. > :16:44.registration can make sure that people can vote on the 23rd of June.

:16:45. > :16:46.I am very proud to be the Mhnister that introduced online registration

:16:47. > :16:50.and I think it has been a great step forward in our democracy and I

:16:51. > :17:00.disagree with the right honourable gentleman for Gordon who also

:17:01. > :17:06.thinks... I stand here todax as the chair of the APPG. Can I urge the

:17:07. > :17:09.Minister and the House to t`ke a look at some of the recommendations

:17:10. > :17:13.we have recently brought forward to improve the state of the registered.

:17:14. > :17:21.It is important as many people as possible are registered to vote I

:17:22. > :17:33.am very grateful for the intervention. I will study with

:17:34. > :17:36.great interest her recommendations and I understand she is meeting the

:17:37. > :17:43.Minister for Constitutional affairs to discuss them shortly. Mr Ben

:17:44. > :17:46.Bradshaw. It would be an absolute scandal if people who try to vote

:17:47. > :17:51.before the deadline would ddprive a vote in what is the most important

:17:52. > :17:55.vote of any of our lifetimes. Will he pull out all the stops to make

:17:56. > :17:59.sure they can vote? Will he also address a concern that has been

:18:00. > :18:03.raised by constituents of mhne living and working abroad, that they

:18:04. > :18:07.have heard they have been problems with the processing of a huge number

:18:08. > :18:13.of postal and proxy votes at a local level and make sure that those votes

:18:14. > :18:20.are actually counted? Yes, there are very high numbers of postal votes

:18:21. > :18:24.and registrations to vote bx post as opposed to on the website. We are

:18:25. > :18:27.dealing with all these issuds and when he asked me to pull out all the

:18:28. > :18:36.stops, believe me, that is what we are doing. Doctor Julian Lewis. Even

:18:37. > :18:40.before the failure of the electronic system, we heard of cases of

:18:41. > :18:44.thousands of all cards being sent inappropriately to people who do not

:18:45. > :18:50.qualified to vote. Can the linister explain exactly how, with this great

:18:51. > :18:52.strain on the system caused by the search, that sort of mistakd will

:18:53. > :19:04.not be made again? That was an identified software

:19:05. > :19:08.fault which has now been fixed. The electoral commission brought it to

:19:09. > :19:13.the public attention and it has been addressed and lessons have been

:19:14. > :19:20.learned from the exercise. Find you, Mr Speaker. Can I welcome

:19:21. > :19:28.the Minister's statement, l`st week I had a meeting with the officer in

:19:29. > :19:32.my constituency who informed me that postal votes demand has been at an

:19:33. > :19:38.unprecedented level. She has never seen anything like it in her life.

:19:39. > :19:41.She told me that the process is as quick as possible, but post`l votes

:19:42. > :19:46.have been delayed, they havd been sent out and not returned. @ny

:19:47. > :19:50.delays in processing postal votes cannot be tolerated. What is being

:19:51. > :19:56.done to help those who applhed for postal roads that have not been

:19:57. > :20:02.processed? Deliverable post`l votes? Work is being done to make sure that

:20:03. > :20:07.the issue is being addressed. Resources are available to deal with

:20:08. > :20:11.these issues, to make sure that everybody has the democratic right

:20:12. > :20:15.to vote. Ultimately, this is about making sure that everybody who is

:20:16. > :20:19.eligible to, who wants to, has the opportunity to register to

:20:20. > :20:26.participate in this great fdstival of democracy.

:20:27. > :20:31.It's very important that people get the opportunity to register to vote

:20:32. > :20:35.in these circumstances, but it isn't just for this European referendum,

:20:36. > :20:39.it has consequences for othdr elections. I wonder if the Linister

:20:40. > :20:45.has thought about the consepuences of 4.5 million new people on the

:20:46. > :20:49.measure for the boundary colmission, drawing up constituencies on

:20:50. > :20:52.completely wrong numbers now. Well, the boundary commission is

:20:53. > :20:58.continuing its work based on the date, the date agreed by thhs house.

:20:59. > :21:05.The two issues are essentially separate.

:21:06. > :21:09.I am ambitious for my country, that is why earlier today I voted by post

:21:10. > :21:14.to remain. Everyone else who wants to do so should be able to. What

:21:15. > :21:19.estimate is made of the number of people who were able to reghster

:21:20. > :21:27.after 215 last night, and the number who weren't able to?

:21:28. > :21:33.I welcome his support and the support from the Liberal Delocrat

:21:34. > :21:37.benches. I hope in the Housd of Lords, should legislation come

:21:38. > :21:41.forward... He is nodding so I am delighted to see Lib Dem support a

:21:42. > :21:45.beer too. When it comes to the second question he asks, I think it

:21:46. > :21:52.is a very important matter `nd we will take that into consideration.

:21:53. > :21:56.The Minister is clearly putting a great deal of energy into ironing

:21:57. > :22:01.out this particular glitch, but he needs to be seen to be fair to both

:22:02. > :22:05.sides, given the closeness of the results on the 23rd of June. How

:22:06. > :22:11.much energy is he therefore applying to quantifying the number of

:22:12. > :22:16.non-eligible EU nationals who have been sent postal votes becatse,

:22:17. > :22:25.clearly, after the events there are those in the Leave Campo will be

:22:26. > :22:31.calling into question if we haven't quantified those corresponddnce that

:22:32. > :22:35.were sent out in error. We know that that number is under

:22:36. > :22:40.5000 according to the electoral commission and that that problem has

:22:41. > :22:45.been fixed. If we can, by contrast to the previous question, it will be

:22:46. > :22:50.impossible to know the total number of people between 10:15pm and

:22:51. > :22:55.midnight to tried, and didn't then succeed, because some peopld went on

:22:56. > :23:00.to try again and succeed. That's why we think that looking towards,

:23:01. > :23:03.seeing what we can do to extend the deadline, which seems to have broad

:23:04. > :23:11.smoke poured across the house is the right way forward. -- broad support

:23:12. > :23:14.across the house. I'm proud that my former employer

:23:15. > :23:19.has led to so many people registering to vote in the last two

:23:20. > :23:22.weeks, but can the Minister answer my honourable friend's question

:23:23. > :23:28.about what will happen to the postal vote deadline?

:23:29. > :23:36.There are no proposals to change the future... To change now, thd postal

:23:37. > :23:39.vote deadline. We want to m`ke sure we get the registration deadline

:23:40. > :23:43.dealt with appropriately whhch might mean legislation, and of cotrse if

:23:44. > :23:50.that is brought forward we will explain it in full to the house

:23:51. > :23:54.I welcome the news that thotsands who had been wanting to reghster for

:23:55. > :23:59.the referendum, and the extdnsion will encourage even more to register

:24:00. > :24:02.to vote, however, seeing first-hand the long-standing failures of IT

:24:03. > :24:06.infrastructure with things like any jazz connections for health, it was

:24:07. > :24:09.little surprise that the infrastructure couldn't keep up your

:24:10. > :24:13.given the volume of registr`tions. What lessons will be learned from

:24:14. > :24:17.this latest episode and how will the Cabinet Office provides solttions to

:24:18. > :24:24.this age-old problem in rel`tion to IT infrastructure as they ptrsue a

:24:25. > :24:28.new data in Parliament? Believe you me, Mr Speaker, lessons

:24:29. > :24:31.will be learned. What we ard concentrating on today is that

:24:32. > :24:36.everybody who wants to parthcipate in the EU referendum, and is

:24:37. > :24:41.valuable to do so, can vote. I am grateful, Mr Speaker. Clearly,

:24:42. > :24:46.we all want as many people to take up the franchise and throat as

:24:47. > :24:49.possible. The news that over 4 million people have registered in

:24:50. > :24:53.the spring for this referendum is not a shock, we did raise that

:24:54. > :24:57.possibility with the leader of the house and others in the aftdrmath of

:24:58. > :25:02.the boundary review. Surely though, the fact that 4.5 million pdople

:25:03. > :25:04.have registered does call into question the legitimacy of the

:25:05. > :25:10.foundation data upon which the boundary reviews were conducted

:25:11. > :25:15.No, I don't think that is the case. The house decided on the date for

:25:16. > :25:20.the boundary review to start its work, it is very important that that

:25:21. > :25:23.work begins. We need to makd sure that the independent boundary row

:25:24. > :25:30.can come to its conclusion think the time.

:25:31. > :25:34.Young people are disproporthonately likely to be unregistered to vote,

:25:35. > :25:39.can I urge the Minister not only to extend the deadline for as far as we

:25:40. > :25:43.possibly can, but to promotd it as clearly as possible in placds that

:25:44. > :25:46.young people are most likelx to be, such as Facebook and other social

:25:47. > :25:51.media. There has been a huge amount of

:25:52. > :25:57.support and communication both on social media and broadly, bx a wide

:25:58. > :26:01.array of people. I would encourage all those who spent the last few

:26:02. > :26:06.days explaining to people that they have to register in order to vote to

:26:07. > :26:10.now get out there and encourage people to register to vote now,

:26:11. > :26:13.today, knowing that we are doing everything we can to make stre those

:26:14. > :26:20.registrations will allow people to vote on the 23rd of June. Htge

:26:21. > :26:25.numbers of people have been out there doing that, I say to them now,

:26:26. > :26:29.get out there and spread thd word. Surely we must accept that the surge

:26:30. > :26:34.in applications to vote is ` reflection not an interest hn the

:26:35. > :26:37.referendum, but of a number of people disenfranchised, why is the

:26:38. > :26:40.Minister content of the boundary review should go ahead on f`lse

:26:41. > :26:43.figures? Why want to give a commitment to the house tod`y that

:26:44. > :26:47.the boundary commission will work on accurate figures rather than the

:26:48. > :26:51.dodgy statistics you previotsly I'm afraid he's got the wrong end of

:26:52. > :26:58.the stick. The boundary revhew has to do operate on an elector`l roll,

:26:59. > :27:03.an agreed date. That date w`s agreed by this house, and, in the past the

:27:04. > :27:09.boundary review operated on a 10-year cycle. Therefore, the

:27:10. > :27:13.electoral roll was ten years out of date by the time it was revdaled.

:27:14. > :27:19.Now we are moving to five ydars In fact, we've brought in more frequent

:27:20. > :27:22.use of data, electoral roll data by the band revealed. The idea that you

:27:23. > :27:26.can't have a drop-dead date would mean that you wouldn't be able to be

:27:27. > :27:32.bound to rule at all. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Simply having

:27:33. > :27:36.a national Insurance number does not, of itself, establish that

:27:37. > :27:40.someone is eligible to vote in the year referendum. Can my right

:27:41. > :27:44.honourable friend explain what checks are being made to verify that

:27:45. > :27:50.everyone who applied is gentinely able to vote in the referendum?

:27:51. > :27:53.That is an incredibly important question. The eligibility

:27:54. > :27:57.requirements were debated extensively and missiles. After

:27:58. > :28:04.somebody applies to Reg onlhne that application is then not takdn at

:28:05. > :28:08.face value. -- register onlhne. It is checked against government data

:28:09. > :28:14.to strike that prison fits within the rules set by this house. This is

:28:15. > :28:17.one of the things that requhres time between the deadline and polling day

:28:18. > :28:24.to make sure that exactly the concerns he raises are met.

:28:25. > :28:29.The Minister keeps saying that yesterday was unprecedented and they

:28:30. > :28:35.were significantly higher ntmbers, but there were 525,000 opticians

:28:36. > :28:40.yesterday and 485,020 15, why was the system is not paid to cope with

:28:41. > :28:44.it? Is it not time for autolatic registration?

:28:45. > :28:54.The reason these bike was so much bigger is that there was an intense

:28:55. > :28:57.bike in after 9pm. -- spike. The question is about how many people

:28:58. > :29:04.are trying to apply at once. That was three times higher than the peak

:29:05. > :29:08.before the 2015 General Election. The Minister is making a bad

:29:09. > :29:13.situation worse by refusing to give a clear answer on the subject of

:29:14. > :29:20.deadlines for registration. I want to ask about the agile technologies

:29:21. > :29:23.was on the basis for online registration they were chosdn for

:29:24. > :29:29.their scalability when propdrly implemented and resourced. These

:29:30. > :29:35.form the basis for the DVLA, which may also be subject to unprdcedented

:29:36. > :29:39.but predictable surges. Will he commits to laying before thd house a

:29:40. > :29:41.detailed report into why thd scalable technology was not able to

:29:42. > :29:47.deal with a predictable surge demand?

:29:48. > :29:51.She asks a very reasonable puestion. It is certainly one we will be

:29:52. > :29:56.looking at in the lessons ldarned exercise. I just pick her up on one

:29:57. > :30:00.point that I disagree with `bout clarity, about what people should do

:30:01. > :30:04.now. It is incumbent on all of us to get out there and say peopld should

:30:05. > :30:09.register now. We will come forward with, should we choose to, with

:30:10. > :30:13.legislation. I think you can gather that it's highly likely. With

:30:14. > :30:21.legislation that will set ott the deadline, but, what matters right

:30:22. > :30:25.now is that people should gdt on the website, which is currently working,

:30:26. > :30:33.and register to vote. Let b`d message quite loud and clear.

:30:34. > :30:36.I am very grateful but what guidance would be Minister to give to those

:30:37. > :30:41.who want to vote by post because I'm not clear what happens with the 5pm

:30:42. > :30:45.deadline this evening. If an individual register today and is

:30:46. > :30:49.informed tomorrow that they can vote, but can only vote by post is

:30:50. > :30:54.the Government opening itself to a judicial challenge was macro no

:30:55. > :31:01.The two issues are separate. If somebody wants to register, or

:31:02. > :31:06.applied to register yesterd`y but isn't available to vote on the 3rd,

:31:07. > :31:10.the postal vote can't be organised in time, they can still votd by

:31:11. > :31:21.proxy, about opportunities `vailable to make sure they can express the

:31:22. > :31:24.democratic West. -- democratic wish. There's a carry on registration

:31:25. > :31:28.message, should people in Northern Ireland listen to that given that

:31:29. > :31:31.online registration is not `vailable to people in Northern Ireland and

:31:32. > :31:35.they were separate difficulties because of strike action ovdr

:31:36. > :31:41.proposals to centralise services that affected those offices

:31:42. > :31:44.yesterday and last week? This is an important concern in

:31:45. > :31:49.Northern Ireland and any legislation will be absolutely clear about that.

:31:50. > :31:56.We'll sat back down to soon as we can.

:31:57. > :32:00.Thank you, Mr Speaker. On the point of verification canny Minister say

:32:01. > :32:04.what additional support and help is being given to local authorhties who

:32:05. > :32:07.find themselves undertaking a great deal of verification they h`ve

:32:08. > :32:12.thought they would have to do? We've made clear that we will make

:32:13. > :32:14.resources available to a re`sonable extent if needed to elector`l

:32:15. > :32:21.registration officers to make sure that everybody who wants to, and is

:32:22. > :32:25.eligible, will be able to vote. Like my right honourable frhend I

:32:26. > :32:29.remember the glorious sunny day in September 2014 where hundreds of

:32:30. > :32:33.people were queueing up outside the local authority officers to hand in

:32:34. > :32:36.voter registration, I wonder whether lessons were learned from the surge

:32:37. > :32:40.that happen before the Scottish referendum on the Scottish

:32:41. > :32:44.referendum and 2015 referendum, that is the capacity now exist for any

:32:45. > :32:49.further surge when the deadline is finally announced. Can you `lso

:32:50. > :32:52.confirm that we are talking about online registration and that the

:32:53. > :32:57.paper registration deadline has passed?

:32:58. > :33:03.We are working to ensure th`t should there be a further surge we have the

:33:04. > :33:07.capacity to deal with that. What I say, again, is that the levdl of

:33:08. > :33:11.demand in a short period of time was an precedent did last night. That is

:33:12. > :33:18.why we had the problems we did. -- unprecedented.

:33:19. > :33:22.It is absolutely right that anybody who wanted to register to vote but

:33:23. > :33:29.couldn't is given the opportunity to do so, but, given that therd may be

:33:30. > :33:37.a situation where the referdndum result is close, what legalhties

:33:38. > :33:42.surrounding that in extending the deadline was macro what advhce had

:33:43. > :33:44.the Minister taken in case ` result, a close yes or no result is then

:33:45. > :33:55.challenged legally? This is why we are very -- working

:33:56. > :34:00.very closely with the Electoral Commission and with lawyers to make

:34:01. > :34:04.sure that anything we bring forward is absolutely watertight, bdcause

:34:05. > :34:07.everybody wants to see that referendum take place and everybody

:34:08. > :34:19.who wants to and is eligibld to be able to vote. Clarity is kex. Is

:34:20. > :34:24.there any reason why it can't be done today? We want to make sure

:34:25. > :34:29.that the legislation is absolutely right to make sure that the

:34:30. > :34:36.referendum happens on an entirely legal basis, unchallengeabld, as I

:34:37. > :34:39.am sure she will agree, and that is why we are being very careftl to

:34:40. > :34:50.make sure we get the details exactly right. Tom Elliott. Following on,

:34:51. > :34:54.the industrial action in Northern Ireland, have any form of provisions

:34:55. > :34:59.been made to allow those people to register or register to votd by post

:35:00. > :35:03.or proxy? And the proposed closure of those rural offices in Northern

:35:04. > :35:11.Ireland will only heighten the problem in future years. As I said

:35:12. > :35:15.to his honourable friend, this is an incredibly important matter for

:35:16. > :35:21.Northern Ireland. We are considering the options right now and I would

:35:22. > :35:23.welcome his and all members input from Northern Ireland on how that

:35:24. > :35:34.should be taken forward. Gavin Robinson. It would appear there is a

:35:35. > :35:40.blank cheque from all partids today but until there is a date for

:35:41. > :35:44.certainty when registration will not entitle you to vote, that clarity is

:35:45. > :35:48.required. If a message goes out today that you keep on registering

:35:49. > :35:52.and you will be able to votd, that will lead to problems either

:35:53. > :35:56.tomorrow or towards the weekend It would be good if you could hndicate

:35:57. > :36:02.a day that should do not register by the end of today, your vote will not

:36:03. > :36:07.count. We will make that absolutely clear, when the legislation, should

:36:08. > :36:13.they be sent, is brought forward. We are encouraging people to vote,

:36:14. > :36:17.let's encourage them to reghster now because we are doing all th`t we can

:36:18. > :36:24.to make sure the people who do register now are then going to be

:36:25. > :36:28.able to vote on the 23rd of June. Echoing the comments of the

:36:29. > :36:34.honourable member for Norwich North, the missing millions highlighted

:36:35. > :36:38.many recommendations but whdn I did want to pick up on his autolatic

:36:39. > :36:46.registration. What commission - commitment can we have todax that

:36:47. > :36:52.following this example will be proposals be brought forward to the

:36:53. > :36:56.House? We are going to look into the use of alternative sources of data

:36:57. > :37:01.but we are not yet persuaded on the case for automatic registration But

:37:02. > :37:06.most importantly, what we are concentrating on right now, is

:37:07. > :37:14.making sure that people who want to vote, who are eligible to, will be

:37:15. > :37:21.able to. Point of order. Chris Bryant. I believe it arises the

:37:22. > :37:28.rectory out of the matters that house has just treated and therefore

:37:29. > :37:30.it is proper to take it now. The Minister has said he things in

:37:31. > :37:35.emergency legislation will be necessary if we are to deal with the

:37:36. > :37:40.problem and I think the whole House has said it wants to see it dealt

:37:41. > :37:44.with. We also want to be as helpful as possible. It would be difficult

:37:45. > :37:51.to bring forward legislation, have it all carried today. Howevdr, I

:37:52. > :37:54.presume if it is going to bd primary legislation, it would have to come

:37:55. > :37:58.to the floor of the House, `t the earliest tomorrow. Secondarx

:37:59. > :38:03.legislation would be diffictlt to have in committee because it would

:38:04. > :38:06.have to be set before Mondax. My mere suggestion is that if the

:38:07. > :38:10.Leader of the House were able to come to us later today with a

:38:11. > :38:14.business statement, just to make sure absolutely what is going to

:38:15. > :38:18.happen tomorrow, that would be in the best interests of this House and

:38:19. > :38:24.the other house, who will h`ve two deal with the legislation as well. I

:38:25. > :38:28.am in the happy position of agreeing with the honourable gentlem`n. I

:38:29. > :38:34.have a sense that that would be widely anticipated and

:38:35. > :38:40.enthusiastically supported hn The House. To have some advance

:38:41. > :38:44.indication from the governmdnt that that is the intention would be

:38:45. > :38:49.useful and a supplementary business statement would be the ordinary

:38:50. > :38:53.although not the only way of providing the information, but the

:38:54. > :38:59.Minister is all agog. He is in a state of great excitement and I wish

:39:00. > :39:10.to feel satisfied he pops. Crikey, Mr Speaker. As I made clear, it is

:39:11. > :39:16.likely that we will need legislation. I warmly welcole the

:39:17. > :39:20.Shadow leader's statement jtst now. We will work with him and through

:39:21. > :39:24.the usual channels to make sure this is them as effectively as possible

:39:25. > :39:27.and I will take away the pohnt about whether we should have a business

:39:28. > :39:39.statement today in order to facilitate that. I would expect

:39:40. > :39:42.given the normal courtesy of the Leader of the House, to be kept

:39:43. > :39:49.appraised of the situation has the afternoon and events unfold. I will

:39:50. > :39:54.take other points of order hf they are to do with this matter. If they

:39:55. > :39:58.are on unrelated matters, they should come after the standhng order

:39:59. > :40:03.application. I am saving thd honourable gentleman at. Thd

:40:04. > :40:08.honourable gentleman can't have a commitment that is more important

:40:09. > :40:12.than the chamber. He is the ultimate parliamentarian. We will he`r from

:40:13. > :40:17.him soon and I am becoming increasingly excited at the

:40:18. > :40:21.prospect. Me too, says the Linister. I am not sure he will feel the same

:40:22. > :40:25.way at the end of the point of order. In a moment, I will call the

:40:26. > :40:30.honourable lady to make an application for leave to propose a

:40:31. > :40:33.debate on a specific and important matter that should have urgdnt

:40:34. > :40:41.consideration under the terls of standing order number 24. I must

:40:42. > :40:46.inform the honourable lady that she has had to three minutes in which to

:40:47. > :40:50.submit your application. I seek leave to propose that the

:40:51. > :40:55.House should debate and important matter, namely to back unrelated

:40:56. > :41:02.products regulation ready 16. This is a time sensitive EU dikt`t that

:41:03. > :41:05.is allocated to the governmdnt as a negative statutory instrument.

:41:06. > :41:09.Unless the government gives any time to discuss it, it will just pass

:41:10. > :41:14.through. The backbench commhttee is not reconvene and has only let twice

:41:15. > :41:17.since this was brought in. Ht was tabled in April and has had

:41:18. > :41:22.cross-party support. The tobacco regulations will have a hugd impact

:41:23. > :41:26.on the industry. If these revelations passed beyond the date

:41:27. > :41:30.of June 15, this House will not have had an opportunity to debatd this

:41:31. > :41:35.important matter. Only two lonths ago the Royal College of Phxsicians

:41:36. > :41:38.warned wider use of nicotind products could substantiallx

:41:39. > :41:42.increase the number of smokdrs and is therefore likely to generate

:41:43. > :41:46.significant health... Last xear Public Health England found

:41:47. > :41:53.e-cigarettes were less harmful than smoking. Our view, based on all the

:41:54. > :41:55.evidence available, is that e-cigarettes can help smokers quit

:41:56. > :42:00.and they are considerably ldss harmful to health. Yet thesd

:42:01. > :42:04.regulations that we have yet discussed or debated in this House

:42:05. > :42:08.will seek to impose severe limits on advertising the products and bring

:42:09. > :42:16.e-cigarettes under the same regulations as cigarettes. The

:42:17. > :42:20.Minister said in May, we wish people to quit altogether but if there is a

:42:21. > :42:24.way they can quit smoking and pick up fake then, that is something we

:42:25. > :42:28.wish to encourage. I hope the House will be given an opportunitx to

:42:29. > :42:32.consider this as there is a significant impact on smoking,

:42:33. > :42:35.public health, which shows we should give some consideration before we

:42:36. > :42:44.have too absorbed this Brussels regulation. The honourable lady asks

:42:45. > :42:49.leave to propose a debate on a specific and important mattdr which

:42:50. > :42:52.should have urgent consider`tion, namely the tobacco and related

:42:53. > :42:59.products 2016. I have listened carefully to the option but I am not

:43:00. > :43:06.sure this is proper to be dhscussed under standing order 24. I would add

:43:07. > :43:11.that if there is significant interest in this matter, either in

:43:12. > :43:18.the House or beyond, it might be regarded as helpful if, through the

:43:19. > :43:25.usual channels, a debate on it were arranged. I express myself hn those

:43:26. > :43:30.relatively careful and understated terms for it is not within the

:43:31. > :43:37.remake of the chair. That jtdgment has to be made elsewhere. Btt the

:43:38. > :43:42.honourable lady, she has made her case with force and eloquence, and

:43:43. > :43:45.if I have learned anything `bout her over the last 11 years we h`ve

:43:46. > :43:47.served in the House together, I would say it is pretty unlikely that

:43:48. > :44:03.she will let go of the bone. Point of order. In reply to my

:44:04. > :44:07.honourable friend, the membdr for Dorset South, the Prime Minhster

:44:08. > :44:13.made an assertion regarding the question of the treaty change. He

:44:14. > :44:19.said we have secured treaty change. That is clearly not the casd and I

:44:20. > :44:24.do say to you, Mr Speaker, this may have been inadvertent. If so, I have

:44:25. > :44:28.no doubt the Prime Minister will take the opportunity to correct

:44:29. > :44:36.that, but I do say there was not a statement that could be sustained in

:44:37. > :44:40.the light of the facts. I al at a disadvantage right comparison with

:44:41. > :44:44.the honourable gentleman in that I myself do not enjoy a precise recall

:44:45. > :44:49.of everything that the Primd Minister said at Prime Minister s

:44:50. > :44:54.Questions earlier, though I rather imagine the honourable gentleman

:44:55. > :44:59.does have such a recall and may even be capable of reproducing the

:45:00. > :45:03.verbatim text of prime ministerial answers backwards. What I whll say

:45:04. > :45:06.to the honourable gentleman is that anyone who gives incorrect

:45:07. > :45:12.information to the House is responsible for correcting ht. If

:45:13. > :45:16.the Prime Minister judges hd made a mistake, which would naturally be

:45:17. > :45:19.inadvertent, the responsibility upon him is no less great or absolute

:45:20. > :45:25.than it would be up on any other member. Knowing the honourable

:45:26. > :45:34.gentleman as I do, I feel stre that he too will let go of the bone until

:45:35. > :45:39.he receives satisfaction. I will leave it there. The point of order

:45:40. > :45:43.will have been heard on the Treasury bench and I am sure its contents

:45:44. > :45:50.will win its way to the ten Downing St. Point of order. I am hoping you

:45:51. > :45:54.will be able to help me and advise me on how I can achieve somd

:45:55. > :45:58.consistency on the government's position on Saudi Arabia. On the

:45:59. > :46:02.24th of May, the Foreign Secretary said there was no evidence xet that

:46:03. > :46:07.Saudi Arabia has used clustdr munitions. However, in a wrhtten

:46:08. > :46:11.answer on the 22nd of May, the Secretary of State for the defence

:46:12. > :46:16.said the UK is a way that S`udi Arabia has used cluster munhtions in

:46:17. > :46:20.the current conflict in Yemdn and in a debate this morning, the Linister

:46:21. > :46:25.for Europe said we are seekhng clarification about allegathons I

:46:26. > :46:30.hope you would agree with md that this does highlight some conclusion

:46:31. > :46:35.-- confusion at the heart of government which must cast doubt on

:46:36. > :46:40.the government's assurances that the Saudis have not broken international

:46:41. > :46:44.humanitarian law. My response to the honourable gentleman is twofold

:46:45. > :46:53.First of all, I am not responsible for the consistency of government

:46:54. > :46:58.statements. It is probably `s well that the chair has never bedn

:46:59. > :47:05.responsible for the said consistency under any government of whichever

:47:06. > :47:12.complexion. Secondly, if thd honourable gentleman feels that the

:47:13. > :47:22.statements to which he has referred cause such confusion or uncdrtainty

:47:23. > :47:30.as to render an urgent clarhfication vital, he notes that there `re

:47:31. > :47:35.devices available to him. I say this not to flatter him but as a matter

:47:36. > :47:41.of fact. The honourable gentleman is a former Deputy Leader of this House

:47:42. > :47:48.so he is well versed in the mechanisms available to him. If

:47:49. > :47:53.there are no further points of order, I think the House' appetite

:47:54. > :47:57.has been satisfied for now, we come to the motion in the name of the

:47:58. > :48:06.Leader of the Opposition on the BBC White Paper. I should perhaps inform

:48:07. > :48:12.the House that I have selected the amendment in the name of thd Prime

:48:13. > :48:14.Minister. To move the motion, the Shadow Secretary of State for

:48:15. > :48:21.culture, media and sport, M`ria Eagle. I beg to move the motion

:48:22. > :48:24.standing in my name and that of my right honourable and honour`ble

:48:25. > :48:27.friends. The new BBC Charter will form one of the legacies of the

:48:28. > :48:32.Secretary of State for culttre, media and sport for good or ill I

:48:33. > :48:37.don't say this by way of making any predictions at all about thd right

:48:38. > :48:42.honourable gentleman from Wolverine's immediate polithcal

:48:43. > :48:46.future as a cabinet minister post EU referendum in the Prime Minhster's

:48:47. > :48:54.revenge reshuffle, but simply as a fact of life.

:48:55. > :49:01.The BBC, Mr Speaker, is a rdvered trusted national institution,

:49:02. > :49:04.something to which we all contribute, something of whhch we

:49:05. > :49:09.can all be proud. And upon which we all rely for much of our qu`lity

:49:10. > :49:15.programming. In addition, it is admired around the world, it enables

:49:16. > :49:20.us to project the UK's infltence and soft power across the globe. It is

:49:21. > :49:26.at the heart of our much adlired public broadcasting ecology. It

:49:27. > :49:30.helps to facilitate and nurture our creative industries and taldnts

:49:31. > :49:34.charter renewal provides an opportunity for a to be supported

:49:35. > :49:41.and nurtured rather than denigrated and diminished. Unfortunately, I do

:49:42. > :49:45.not believe that the White Paper produced by the Right honourable

:49:46. > :49:50.gentleman rises to this challenge. I fear, instead, it is intenddd to

:49:51. > :49:57.diminish the scope and effectiveness of the BBC. Even though the White

:49:58. > :50:02.Paper did not contain some of the wilder and more yielded proposals

:50:03. > :50:07.briefed by his department, to Conservative supporting newspapers

:50:08. > :50:12.ahead of its publication it contains measures which May undermind the

:50:13. > :50:16.BBC's editorial and financi`l independence. And which may be used

:50:17. > :50:19.to chip away during the charter period that the things which make

:50:20. > :50:25.the BBC the great Britain shnce Touche and additives. Furthdrmore,

:50:26. > :50:28.it is clear from the consultation responses that the public do not

:50:29. > :50:34.support the director in which they white paper now poses to take the

:50:35. > :50:40.BBC. -- the direction in whhch the White Paper now proposes to take the

:50:41. > :50:46.BBC. I intend to ask the Secretary of State, going forward, to think

:50:47. > :50:49.again about some of his proposals. Madam Deputy Speaker, the BBC's

:50:50. > :50:58.editorial independence is one of its most important, well, one of the

:50:59. > :51:03.most important requirements of success going forward for the BBC.

:51:04. > :51:07.It must be protected at all costs. And there must be no suspichon that

:51:08. > :51:15.the Government of the day c`n influence the BBC board in `nyway,

:51:16. > :51:18.so, the White Paper proposal for BBC governance is amongst the most

:51:19. > :51:24.important of all the propos`ls in the White Paper. Three quarters of

:51:25. > :51:29.the public want the BBC to remain independent according to thd

:51:30. > :51:33.Government's on consultation. 5 % of the public believe that the BBC is

:51:34. > :51:40.the broadcaster most likely to produce balanced and unbiasdd news

:51:41. > :51:46.reporting compared with 14% for ITN, 13% for sky and 13% for Channel 4.

:51:47. > :51:50.The public really do value the independence editorial independence

:51:51. > :51:55.of the BBC. I will give way to the honourable gentleman. I am very

:51:56. > :52:00.grateful and loath to stop her but I wonder if she has seen the survey

:52:01. > :52:04.from the Government which looked at responses across the UK. Shd will

:52:05. > :52:08.have found that the greatest numbers of dissatisfaction were frol

:52:09. > :52:13.Scotland, dodged this not stggest that we have to be creative in how

:52:14. > :52:18.we approach this? The time has come from a federal BBC and a Scottish

:52:19. > :52:25.News service produced and dhrected in Scotland. Understand the

:52:26. > :52:28.honourable gentleman's focus on matters Scottish, and I respect the

:52:29. > :52:36.fact that he has views about what the policies ought to be to address

:52:37. > :52:40.those matters. I don't, mysdlf, believe in the policy perspdctives

:52:41. > :52:44.that he has just suggested `s the only, or indeed, the right way

:52:45. > :52:53.forward. But they agree abott this, it is correct that the BBC ought

:52:54. > :52:57.better to be able to reflect the nations and regions of this country

:52:58. > :53:03.in the way it produces news and other programming. Some of the

:53:04. > :53:12.proposals will increasing dhversity and for devolving production and

:53:13. > :53:16.devolving power within the BBC is something that I think will gain

:53:17. > :53:19.support across the house. Btt precisely how that oughta bd done in

:53:20. > :53:26.Scotland isn't something th`t we would necessarily agree abott.

:53:27. > :53:30.Nobody in this house, I hopd, wants to see the BBC become estatd

:53:31. > :53:34.broadcaster or have arrangelents for governments that give the ilpression

:53:35. > :53:39.that it is. The Government lust ensure that there is no question of

:53:40. > :53:42.government influence on editorial decision-making. There are serious

:53:43. > :53:47.concerns that these plans provide too much power for the Government,

:53:48. > :53:52.and in the day-to-day infludnce of the BBC's editorial decision-making.

:53:53. > :53:57.The director-general has sahd.. I will in a moment, yes. I know the

:53:58. > :54:01.right honourable gentleman has had some important things to sax on

:54:02. > :54:04.this. The director-general has said there are honest disagreements

:54:05. > :54:10.between ministers at the BBC as to how best to protect and enh`nce BBC

:54:11. > :54:12.editorial independence. He hs a diplomat.

:54:13. > :54:18.I give way to the honourabld gentleman. I thank the right

:54:19. > :54:22.honourable lady for giving way. I share her passion for BBC

:54:23. > :54:25.independence of a former BBC journalist. I have been on both

:54:26. > :54:29.sides of these are commencing my time. She quoted, rightly, `ll the

:54:30. > :54:35.audience satisfaction of public support for the BBC which I share as

:54:36. > :54:39.well, as she knows. But her basic position seems to be that the

:54:40. > :54:43.Government's puzzles in somd way undermine fundamentals of the BBC. I

:54:44. > :54:48.would gently point out to hdr that among the people who welcomdd the

:54:49. > :54:52.Government's puzzles were the BBC. The BBC does not feel it is being

:54:53. > :54:58.undermined, why do she feel the BBC is being undermined?

:54:59. > :55:02.I think... I understand the point is the honourable gentleman makes, but

:55:03. > :55:07.I think when the BBC's Theatre for the next 11 years is to be decided

:55:08. > :55:11.by the Government of the dax, it's not surprising to me that they may

:55:12. > :55:20.well agree in public with almost anything that the Government of the

:55:21. > :55:25.day says. -- the BBC's future. What is going on behind-the-scends a

:55:26. > :55:29.different point. We all accept that the BBC welcomed

:55:30. > :55:32.these posers because it got off lightly. They are still funded

:55:33. > :55:37.publicly for the next 11 ye`rs. They are still going to be able to

:55:38. > :55:40.continue with their practicds, wasteful practices of spendhng money

:55:41. > :55:47.in a cavalier manner, and whth very little input and curtailment from

:55:48. > :55:52.the Government. I don't agree with that analysis

:55:53. > :55:59.from the honourable gentlem`n, Madam Deputy Speaker, the proposed new

:56:00. > :56:03.unitary board will run the BBC, in a statement on the White Paper in this

:56:04. > :56:07.house be secretary of state suggested that the new board would

:56:08. > :56:09.be like the BBC trust but whthout the regulatory functions thdy

:56:10. > :56:15.currently have which would go to Ofcom. In my view that stretches

:56:16. > :56:21.credulity. Page 51 of the White Paper says that the borders are

:56:22. > :56:23.whole will have responsibilhty for setting the overall editori`l

:56:24. > :56:28.direction and framework editorial standards. There is to be only one

:56:29. > :56:33.board, instead of two boards, that unitary board will run the BBC in

:56:34. > :56:37.all meaningful sensors. The secretary of State plans to enable

:56:38. > :56:42.ministers to appoint up to half of the new board members including the

:56:43. > :56:46.chair and step DJ. This cre`tes an unprecedented power for the

:56:47. > :56:49.Government directly to infltence those responsible for editorial

:56:50. > :56:54.matters that the BBC. I will give way.

:56:55. > :56:58.I found my right on the front for giving way, on page 50 of the report

:56:59. > :57:02.it states clearly that the chairperson would be subject to it

:57:03. > :57:05.hearing by the culture medi` and sport select committee. Members of

:57:06. > :57:08.the board would be subject of discussions with the Governlent in

:57:09. > :57:12.Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland. Is she not satisfidd with

:57:13. > :57:16.that? I thank the honourable gentleman for

:57:17. > :57:20.promoting me to the Privy Council and suggesting I might be a member

:57:21. > :57:29.of the Tory party. We got a little bit too far. It is true of course

:57:30. > :57:36.that there are some safeguards implied in the proposals as the good

:57:37. > :57:42.part. That is to be welcomed, but how this looks is also important to

:57:43. > :57:45.those outside. I think simply reiterating that the

:57:46. > :57:51.chief doesn't really relate to fears chief doesn't really relate to fears

:57:52. > :57:56.that his plans, in fact, crdate I also think that these are jtst a's

:57:57. > :58:02.recent record in respect of public appointments does not reasstre those

:58:03. > :58:06.of us who are worried... Established the National portrait Gallery failed

:58:07. > :58:11.to short list his five favotrite candidates. Three of whom would Tory

:58:12. > :58:16.donors and one was an ex-minister. He simply scrap the appointlent

:58:17. > :58:22.process and in an attempt to impugn the integrity of the chain of that

:58:23. > :58:25.panel. This prompted a slap down from the now retired commission of

:58:26. > :58:30.public appointments who acctsed him of exercising political intdrference

:58:31. > :58:34.in an objective public appohntment process. We only know about this to

:58:35. > :58:41.boggle because Sir David's letter was leaked. Members from all sides

:58:42. > :58:50.of the house have expressed concern about the occasions for the BBC and

:58:51. > :58:54.its editorial independence. The member may have had his concerns

:58:55. > :58:59.allayed, but he has describdd editorial independence of the red

:59:00. > :59:02.line for him. These select committee chairman said, as recently `s

:59:03. > :59:06.yesterday, that the plans h`d prompted a lot of concern. The voice

:59:07. > :59:10.of the view and listen have said that they remain a number of

:59:11. > :59:13.concerns relating to independence. It's still not too late for the

:59:14. > :59:18.secretary of state to make clear that these appointments to the new

:59:19. > :59:21.unitary board would be made through a demonstrably independent leans,

:59:22. > :59:26.and he will not seek to influence the outcome of the process. I think,

:59:27. > :59:32.it would benefit him if he were to do so. So why doesn't he undertake

:59:33. > :59:36.today to agree that the Comlissioner for Public appointments shotld run

:59:37. > :59:43.the process of appointing the board members and restrict his own power

:59:44. > :59:47.tool appointing those selected using an independent process. He really

:59:48. > :59:54.needs to provide proper reassurance. I think such only undertaking would

:59:55. > :59:59.be heartily welcomed across this house. Ofcom would have a ndw role,

:00:00. > :00:04.setting service licences and quotas for the BBC. It will be important

:00:05. > :00:09.but this regulatory regime hs not used to interfere with the dditorial

:00:10. > :00:13.and creative freedom of the BBC to use licence fee payers monex to

:00:14. > :00:18.produce the programming it decides to produce. There must be nowhere

:00:19. > :00:22.from the Government to purste the wilder proposals on schedulhng and

:00:23. > :00:31.so-called distinctiveness that did not, in the end, find their way into

:00:32. > :00:37.White Paper. We hope Ofcom's role will not impact the BBC's editorial

:00:38. > :00:41.independence or be a weapon used by governments or the BBC's colmercial

:00:42. > :00:48.rivals to interfere with thd BBC's creative freedom. The BBC mtst be

:00:49. > :00:52.seen to retain its financial independence as well as its

:00:53. > :00:55.editorial independence. In that respect, the explicit referdnce that

:00:56. > :01:02.the licensee is not solely for the use of the BBC, on page 97, is

:01:03. > :01:07.deplorable. It impinges, in my view, on the BBC's financial independence.

:01:08. > :01:12.I am glad there is to be no more top sizing of the licence fee. This

:01:13. > :01:15.would have constituted a brdach of last year's funding agreements of

:01:16. > :01:22.which I have been critical hn any event. The White Paper does oppose

:01:23. > :01:27.the creation of a contestable part of licence fee payer's monex with

:01:28. > :01:31.?20 million a year over thrde years. I think this site is an unwdlcome

:01:32. > :01:35.precedent. Governments of all stripes have been too keen, in my

:01:36. > :01:39.view, over recent years to see the licence fee payer's money as money

:01:40. > :01:44.that the Treasury should be able to allocate to its own priorithes. I

:01:45. > :01:49.think it's better to view the licence fee payer's money properly

:01:50. > :01:53.as belonging to the BBC, to enable it to fulfil its remit. It should be

:01:54. > :01:58.for the BBC to decide how would wish to do that, not for the sitd just

:01:59. > :02:00.laid over the Chancellor of the Exchequer. These are your state has

:02:01. > :02:08.said that his department will consult on this proposal, if the

:02:09. > :02:12.responses are against establishing a contestable part, will ease that

:02:13. > :02:16.your state undertake to drop the idea? And can you tell as today when

:02:17. > :02:23.his consultation will start, and when he intended to finish? Carney

:02:24. > :02:27.confirmed that the same levdls of transparency and accountability that

:02:28. > :02:33.apply to BBC funding would be applied to this contestable part if

:02:34. > :02:38.his pilot still goes ahead? And has he considered the fact that this may

:02:39. > :02:44.be categorised as state aid if it's given to other broadcasters to use

:02:45. > :02:49.as he no doubt intense? Mad`m Deputy Speaker, we agree that the BBC

:02:50. > :02:54.should be as transparent and accountable as possible, for the

:02:55. > :02:58.licence fee payer's money that its bands, so will we on this shde of

:02:59. > :03:01.the house support the idea of a National Audit Office being allowed

:03:02. > :03:07.to investigate the publicly funded areas of the BBC. However, `llowing

:03:08. > :03:13.the NAL toward the BBC's colmercial operations which are not in receipt

:03:14. > :03:16.of any licence fee payer's loney could place those operations at a

:03:17. > :03:22.significant market disadvantage What it is therefore doing so? The

:03:23. > :03:28.commercial operations for mtseums are not open to National Audit

:03:29. > :03:33.Office scrutiny. I know of no organisation in the private sector

:03:34. > :03:40.that receives public money that is subject to scrutiny. I belidve that

:03:41. > :03:44.failure to get this right could have the effect of reducing returns for

:03:45. > :03:47.BBC worldwide, thereby limiting the extent to which the BBC is `ble to

:03:48. > :04:16.subsidise the licence fee through its commercial operations.

:04:17. > :04:21.The Public Accounts Committde has a long-standing issue with thd BBC in

:04:22. > :04:29.terms of Parliamentary accountability. Ishii in favour of

:04:30. > :04:34.an increase in that? I am indeed. That is going back a bit now. But it

:04:35. > :04:40.is one of the reasons why I have a very high regard for the abhlities

:04:41. > :04:44.of the NA oh and I have no problem with the National Audit Offhce being

:04:45. > :04:47.the auditor of the BBC but H do think there is an issue abott its

:04:48. > :04:51.purely commercial operations and whether or not it is appropriate for

:04:52. > :04:57.the National Audit Office to pursue what is entirely private money and

:04:58. > :05:00.nothing to do with any publhc money. It is an interesting preceddnt if it

:05:01. > :05:04.goes ahead but I do want to hear from the Secretary of State about

:05:05. > :05:08.why he thinks that might be appropriate and what the arguments

:05:09. > :05:16.for doing this are. I think there are potential difficulties. Madam

:05:17. > :05:22.Deputy Speaker, I am also concerned about the imposition of the mid term

:05:23. > :05:28.health check into the new charter. It seems suspiciously like the break

:05:29. > :05:33.clause that the newspaper briefed the Secretary of State wantdd by

:05:34. > :05:36.another name. The charter is to be for 11 years and that is solething

:05:37. > :05:42.that really on this side of the House welcome. But it should not be

:05:43. > :05:46.compromised or the agreement underpinning it reopened by the back

:05:47. > :05:53.door that period. I am concdrned that this so-called health check, or

:05:54. > :05:56.break clause by another namd perhaps, is destabilising for the

:05:57. > :06:02.BBC and creates a kind of uncertainty that will not bd

:06:03. > :06:07.helpful. Page 58 of the White Paper says it will be for the govdrnment

:06:08. > :06:12.of the day to determine the precise scope of this health check,

:06:13. > :06:17.consulting the BBC's unitarx board and of common. So the government

:06:18. > :06:22.could decide to reopen questions of whether, for example, the lhcense B

:06:23. > :06:26.B belongs to the BBC or shotld be given to other broadcasters, whether

:06:27. > :06:32.or not the licence fee itself is the right funding method going forward.

:06:33. > :06:36.There are any number of othdr things that the government of the day may

:06:37. > :06:41.decide and which would in effect reopen the charter settlement. The

:06:42. > :06:45.Secretary of State took be culture media and sport committee ydsterday

:06:46. > :06:49.that this was not his intention I think he has an opportunity now to

:06:50. > :06:54.give a guarantee in the charter and in the agreement that he makes with

:06:55. > :06:58.the BBC that any such process will have the narrowest possible focus

:06:59. > :07:03.and cannot be used to reopen fundamental tenants which

:07:04. > :07:08.underpinned the charter half way through it. So it is not gohng to

:07:09. > :07:14.be, in other words, a five-xear charter in all but name. I know that

:07:15. > :07:21.there are members of This House who have raised this issue at the time

:07:22. > :07:25.the White Paper was publishdd. Ministers were pressed for lore

:07:26. > :07:31.detail on this immediately `fter the publication of the White Paper.

:07:32. > :07:36.Others have questioned the plan to have such a review, arguing that

:07:37. > :07:40.these functions should be ldft to a strong board of independent

:07:41. > :07:44.directors who should be allowed to run the BBC without interference. I

:07:45. > :07:51.find myself agreeing on that. Can the Secretary of State, in his reply

:07:52. > :07:55.today, confirm that this he`lth check, if indeed he decides to

:07:56. > :07:58.persevere with it, will onlx be able to recommend proposals to bd

:07:59. > :08:03.included in the subsequent charter rather than being used to compromise

:08:04. > :08:08.the BBC's independence midw`y through the charter term, which we

:08:09. > :08:12.are just about to embark upon. And can he reassure the House and those

:08:13. > :08:22.of us on this side of the House that it will be set in the narrowest

:08:23. > :08:25.possible terms? The BBC's for mission to inform, educate `nd

:08:26. > :08:30.entertain has worked well for over 90 years. That is the found`tion

:08:31. > :08:37.upon which the corporation's success has been built. There has always

:08:38. > :08:41.been a virtue in the dash and clarity provided by the simplest of

:08:42. > :08:46.the the mission statement that stood the BBC in good stead. So why is he

:08:47. > :08:51.determined to alter the substance of the mission statement to include an

:08:52. > :08:54.explicit requirement to be distinctive high-quality and

:08:55. > :08:59.impartial, and what exactly does the government mean by distincthveness?

:09:00. > :09:04.It is one of those words th`t can mean all things to all people. And

:09:05. > :09:07.it certainly means something different to him than it is to the

:09:08. > :09:17.BBC or the anecdotes to members of the public. Age 33 of the White

:09:18. > :09:19.Paper says the BBC should bd substantially different to other

:09:20. > :09:26.providers across each and every service. But that hardly re`lly pins

:09:27. > :09:30.it down. Ministers must all`y concerns that this could be

:09:31. > :09:33.interpreted as the BBC being forced to withdraw from anything its

:09:34. > :09:41.commercial rivals wish it w`s not doing. The Secretary of State has in

:09:42. > :09:45.the past questioned the distinctiveness of some of the BBC's

:09:46. > :09:50.most popular programmes, like strictly come dancing. The White

:09:51. > :09:56.Paper says the government is clear that it cannot and should not

:09:57. > :09:59.determine other content or scheduling programmes but it also

:10:00. > :10:04.sets out prescriptive content requirements for radio and TV to

:10:05. > :10:10.take one example for TV it demands on page 38 fewer high output

:10:11. > :10:20.long-term titles. He seems to be telling the easy to stop producing

:10:21. > :10:25.much loved shows. What reassurances can he give that he is not simply

:10:26. > :10:32.going to require .com to make the BBC back off doing things hd does

:10:33. > :10:41.not like on the basis of thdse extremely prescriptive requhrements?

:10:42. > :10:45.-- of common. Would you accdpt that companies like ITV do have ` valid

:10:46. > :10:50.point when they say that thd many which BBC has available to them

:10:51. > :10:55.every year through the licence fee enables them to have the advantage

:10:56. > :11:02.when it comes to the ratings war and buying in programmes which help in

:11:03. > :11:08.that ratings war? I think that competition between private and

:11:09. > :11:11.commercial and public broadcasters in this country on the basis of

:11:12. > :11:18.high-quality programming benefits all sectors and benefit the British

:11:19. > :11:23.public and benefit our creative industries. I don't accept that in

:11:24. > :11:28.some way the BBC being able to make good quality programmes over an

:11:29. > :11:36.extended number of years solehow compromises the capacity of the rest

:11:37. > :11:41.of our broadcasting industrx to do similar things. It gives us a

:11:42. > :11:48.better, bigger, richer broadcasting ecology and the Secretary of State,

:11:49. > :11:51.who is a free market by instinct, wishes to intervene by micromanaging

:11:52. > :11:56.the public sector elements of our broadcasting industry, he is making

:11:57. > :12:03.a very big mistake as well `s turning into a statist interfering

:12:04. > :12:07.Minister who should just le`ve our broadcasters to get on with doing

:12:08. > :12:20.the job they do so well. But Italy those who work in the BBC. ,-

:12:21. > :12:23.particularly those. In regards to the Minister micromanaging the BBC,

:12:24. > :12:29.are you as disappointed as H am in regards to this, not in reg`rds to

:12:30. > :12:37.diversity and making sure that we have more diversity through the BBC,

:12:38. > :12:41.through programmes and prodtces Well, I agree with my honourable

:12:42. > :12:45.friend that the BBC needs to do more when it comes to diversity `nd to be

:12:46. > :12:50.fair to the Right honourabld gentleman, and I want to be fair to

:12:51. > :12:56.him, of course, he is concerned about this too. I think it hs

:12:57. > :13:00.perfectly reasonable to expdct the BBC to achieve results. The

:13:01. > :13:04.difficulty is when ministers start telling them precisely how they

:13:05. > :13:11.should achieve those results. That is when we run into difficulties. It

:13:12. > :13:16.is perfectly reasonable to dxpect the BBC to do better. I think we all

:13:17. > :13:26.expect the BBC Two do better in that regard. -- the BBC to do better

:13:27. > :13:30.192,000 people participated in the public consultation on the charter.

:13:31. > :13:35.The second largest response to a government consultation heaven. Over

:13:36. > :13:41.four fifths of the responses indicated that the BBC is sdrving

:13:42. > :13:46.its audience well, two thirds indicated the BBC has a poshtive

:13:47. > :13:51.wider impact on the market `nd approximately two thirds of

:13:52. > :13:54.responses indicated that thdy thought their BBC expansion was

:13:55. > :13:58.justified rather than its diminishing. So while the ptblic's

:13:59. > :14:05.overwhelming support for thd BBC can't be in any doubt, the Secretary

:14:06. > :14:10.of State should recall that there is some concern also about somd of the

:14:11. > :14:13.government's proposals. 62 present of over 60s are suspicious of the

:14:14. > :14:19.government's intentions tow`rds the BBC. I hope that the Secret`ry of

:14:20. > :14:24.State will consider fully the widespread concerns amongst the

:14:25. > :14:28.public in -- industry professionals and parliamentarians about his

:14:29. > :14:32.proposals and take steps genuinely to change them to reassure those of

:14:33. > :14:36.us who care about the futurd of the BBC over the next Charter pdriod.

:14:37. > :14:42.And if he was to do so, he will be able to look back upon this time in

:14:43. > :14:47.office as Secretary of Statd for culture, media and sport, knowing

:14:48. > :14:52.that he boosted the BBC if he does not -- boosted the BBC. If we does

:14:53. > :14:57.not do so, I believe his legacy will be seen as rather more destructive.

:14:58. > :15:04.I called the Secretary of State to move the government amendment. I beg

:15:05. > :15:08.to move the amendment standhng in my name and those of my right

:15:09. > :15:14.honourable friend. I would first of all like to thank the honourable

:15:15. > :15:18.lady for giving the House the opportunity to debate the White

:15:19. > :15:23.Paper on the future of the BBC. Even if I was less happy with thd terms

:15:24. > :15:30.of emotion. In her emotion, she talks about the threat to the

:15:31. > :15:35.editorial and financial inddpendence of the BBC. Two principles which are

:15:36. > :15:40.explicitly strengthened rather than weakened under the proposals in the

:15:41. > :15:46.White Paper. However, it is typical of the entire process of ch`rter

:15:47. > :15:49.renewal and the debate around it, which has been characterised by the

:15:50. > :16:05.government's critics tilting at windmills. Perhaps as a tribute ..

:16:06. > :16:10.Madam Deputy Speaker, this was not a White Paper designed to wreck the

:16:11. > :16:13.BBC but rather to cement its status as the finest broadcaster in the

:16:14. > :16:21.world for many years to comd. The White Paper was informed by an

:16:22. > :16:24.extensive consultation, the largest of its kind ever undertaken by

:16:25. > :16:31.government. We talked frequdntly and at length to representatives of the

:16:32. > :16:35.BBC, both the management and the trust, in what the BBC J has

:16:36. > :16:44.described as constructive engagement. We received mord than

:16:45. > :16:49.190,000 responses from the public. 16 focus groups were held. There was

:16:50. > :16:55.nationally representative polling of more than 4000 adults across the UK,

:16:56. > :17:00.and more than 300 organisathons and experts engaged with this. H will

:17:01. > :17:06.not list all of those but jtst to give a flavour of how diverse they

:17:07. > :17:12.were, they included the Austrian broadcasting Corporation, the

:17:13. > :17:15.British film Institute, Equhty, Glasgow Council, Celerity Hdnry the

:17:16. > :17:21.National Union of Journalists, UK sport and the welcome trust. I am

:17:22. > :17:28.also grateful to the members of the advisory group who provided expert

:17:29. > :17:34.views, to two panels containing some of the best and brightest creative

:17:35. > :17:38.minds working in television today and to David Clementi and D`vid

:17:39. > :17:42.Perry, who conducted detaildd reviews of BBC governance and of the

:17:43. > :17:53.licence fee in force in respectively. Moreover, we have seen

:17:54. > :17:57.published reports. Each one was considered very carefully bx myself

:17:58. > :18:01.and the Department and I am pleased that we agreed with many of their

:18:02. > :18:13.recommendations. I am happy to give way. The dissatisfaction levels are

:18:14. > :18:17.higher in Scotland than in the rest of the UK. There is a sense the BBC

:18:18. > :18:23.does not adequately reflect this as a nation. What is he going to do to

:18:24. > :18:28.address these concerns? I do share the concern expressed by thd

:18:29. > :18:32.honourable gentleman. It is a matter that I discussed at some length with

:18:33. > :18:38.his colleague, who I think hs hoping to catch your eye shortly. But who

:18:39. > :18:42.is also a member of the Seldct Committee, which I gave evidence to

:18:43. > :18:49.yesterday on charter review. He is absolutely right that opinion

:18:50. > :18:50.research has shown that the level of satisfaction with the BBC, while

:18:51. > :19:08.still being high, is We have sought to put in pl`ce new

:19:09. > :19:13.measures which I hope will dnsure that the BBC takes action to address

:19:14. > :19:17.this. Firstly, in terms of the representation on the board of

:19:18. > :19:23.somebody who will act as a voice for Scotland and I will come on to the

:19:24. > :19:30.governance arrangements shortly but also with a new service licdnce for

:19:31. > :19:33.each of the nations of the TK, a specific service licence repuiring

:19:34. > :19:37.the BBC or setting out in broad terms how the BBC is expectdd to

:19:38. > :19:41.ensure that it meets the nedds of people in Scotland. At the dnd of

:19:42. > :19:46.the day, these are matters for the BBC. The service licence, lhke all

:19:47. > :19:53.the service licences, will be set in broad terms. How the BBC gods about

:19:54. > :19:57.raising the level of satisf`ction in its output in Scotland is ultimately

:19:58. > :20:02.a matter for them but I know that it's something they are anxhous to

:20:03. > :20:07.address and I am sure he will be happy - the director general will be

:20:08. > :20:13.happy to talk to him further about that. I am grateful to the Secretary

:20:14. > :20:18.of State because he knows there is great concern about this in Scotland

:20:19. > :20:23.and a few proposals have emdrged. Like the one about a more fdderal

:20:24. > :20:27.type of BBC and also the ongoing discussion about a new servhce

:20:28. > :20:30.produced in Scotland where we can see the eyes of the world through a

:20:31. > :20:34.Scottish production and Scottish values. Does he see merit in them

:20:35. > :20:39.and what is wrong with thesd suggestions, if not? This is the

:20:40. > :20:44.point at which I fear I shall disappoint the honourable gdntleman.

:20:45. > :20:48.Whilst I think it is import`nt that the BBC achieves high levels of

:20:49. > :20:50.satisfaction right across the United Kingdom, it is the British

:20:51. > :20:55.Broadcasting Corporation. It does represent the whole of the Tnited

:20:56. > :21:00.Kingdom and I do not support making it a federal structure. The question

:21:01. > :21:04.of how it provides its news coverage is for the BBC but I also bdlieve

:21:05. > :21:10.that as the UK broadcaster ht is important that there should be a

:21:11. > :21:14.UK-wide national news bulletin which draws the nation together. H am

:21:15. > :21:18.happy to give way. I thank the Secretary of State for giving way.

:21:19. > :21:21.He is being generous in that regard. In terms of Scotland and other

:21:22. > :21:26.regions within the United Khngdom, I wonder if he agrees that Scotland

:21:27. > :21:29.actually has in terms of thhs new arrangement far greater

:21:30. > :21:35.representation than many regions within England itself. For dxample,

:21:36. > :21:39.the West Midlands, an equiv`lent population to Scotland, whereas in

:21:40. > :21:45.that respect Scotland has a greater seat around the table. Of course

:21:46. > :21:50.there will be a non-executive member of the BBC board to represent

:21:51. > :21:55.England, but not specifically each region. But the requirement on the

:21:56. > :22:02.BBC as part of its purposes to serve the nations and regions is clear and

:22:03. > :22:08.the BBC, again I am sure is fully aware of the dissatisfaction felt in

:22:09. > :22:10.some parts of England and mx honourable friend obviously

:22:11. > :22:14.identifies the West Midlands where the matter has already been debated

:22:15. > :22:19.in the House in the past about the level of investment by the BBC in

:22:20. > :22:24.the West Midlands and I do believe that it is important that the BBC,

:22:25. > :22:28.both invests in production hn every part of the United Kingdom `nd also

:22:29. > :22:36.that its programming should reflect the requirements. I am happx to give

:22:37. > :22:39.way. Thank you very much. Mdntion is made in the White Paper of

:22:40. > :22:44.sub-committees for the four nations and I wondered if he could perhaps

:22:45. > :22:47.elaborate more on what might be the make-up of those sub-committees and

:22:48. > :22:54.how they will be chosen? I `m afraid I can't at this stage. I thhnk it's

:22:55. > :22:59.primarily a matter for the BBC. Whilst the charter will set out the

:23:00. > :23:05.overarching governance structure, in other words, the creation of a board

:23:06. > :23:07.and an external regulator, how the BBC is organised within the

:23:08. > :23:12.corporation itself is largely a matter for the BBC. But I would

:23:13. > :23:17.obviously encourage her to discuss that matter with the BBC and perhaps

:23:18. > :23:26.the new chairman of the board who obviously is currently the chairman

:23:27. > :23:30.of the BBC Trust. I was tempted by the honourable gentleman from the

:23:31. > :23:35.Scottish National Party to talk about some of the evidence H gave

:23:36. > :23:37.yesterday to the Select Comlittee. The House of Lords committed

:23:38. > :23:41.obviously has also taken a close interest and I have no doubt that

:23:42. > :23:46.the committees in both Housds will continue to take an interest in

:23:47. > :23:51.these matters as we move to produce a draft charter which I hopd to do

:23:52. > :23:55.before the summer. Members will then have plenty of time to studx it in

:23:56. > :24:00.detail before debates in both Houses as well as in the devolved

:24:01. > :24:04.administrations as we committed to in the memorandum of understanding

:24:05. > :24:08.with the devolved administr`tions. Then once approved by the Privy

:24:09. > :24:12.Council the new charter will formally come into effect on 1st

:24:13. > :24:17.January 2017 and the BBC will then transition to its new model of

:24:18. > :24:22.governance and regulation over the ensuing months. Now I am not going

:24:23. > :24:26.to go through all the details of the White Paper because we had ` lengthy

:24:27. > :24:31.discussion when it was publhshed, but let me address the two specific

:24:32. > :24:37.concerns which were raised by the honourable lady of editorial and

:24:38. > :24:42.financial independence. On the former, the new governance structure

:24:43. > :24:48.is exactly as recommended bx Sir David in a report which was very

:24:49. > :24:54.widely welcomed. Whereas prdviously all of the appointments of the

:24:55. > :24:59.governance of the BBC and then following changes the BBC Trust all

:25:00. > :25:06.of those appointments were previously made by the Government,

:25:07. > :25:12.at least half of the new BBC board will be appointed by the BBC. Ball

:25:13. > :25:17.in the back of the net! The six positions which are Governmdnt

:25:18. > :25:20.appointees will be made through the public appointments process which

:25:21. > :25:25.itself wasn't in place before and the new Commissioner for public

:25:26. > :25:31.appointments, Peter Riddle, has said, I welcome the broad principles

:25:32. > :25:36.outlined in today's BBC White Paper about how appointments will be made

:25:37. > :25:41.to the new unitary board. To put these into practice there whll need

:25:42. > :25:45.to be a robust independent process which attracts a range of c`ndidates

:25:46. > :25:50.for these posts. That is ex`ctly what the Government wants to see.

:25:51. > :25:55.The BBC, I would point out, actually accept that the Government should

:25:56. > :25:59.make the appointment of the chairman and the deputy chairman through the

:26:00. > :26:05.public appointments process. The BBC have questioned whether or not the

:26:06. > :26:09.Government should make the appointment of four NEDs. I would

:26:10. > :26:13.point out those four NEDs are there specifically to represent e`ch of

:26:14. > :26:18.the nations of the UK and their appointment is not just madd by the

:26:19. > :26:22.Government in Westminster t will be done in consultation with the

:26:23. > :26:26.devolved administrations and so if that was taken away we would lose

:26:27. > :26:30.the ability of devolved administrations to have a s`y in the

:26:31. > :26:39.appointment of a governor to represent each of the nations of the

:26:40. > :26:44.UK. However, as well as putting in place a more independent bo`rd we

:26:45. > :26:49.will also strengthen the independence of the director general

:26:50. > :26:56.as editor-in-chief. Editori`l decisions will be a matter for him

:26:57. > :27:01.and the BBC executives, not for non-executive board members. They

:27:02. > :27:08.will be able to hold the director general to account for his dditorial

:27:09. > :27:13.decisions but only after programmes are transmitted. It is clear that

:27:14. > :27:19.the board's involvement is to oversee and deal with possible

:27:20. > :27:23.complaints about editorial decisions but only after transmission of

:27:24. > :27:28.programmes. Now the honourable lady mentioned that we have decided to

:27:29. > :27:32.extend the term of the charter to 11 years specifically in order to meet

:27:33. > :27:36.the concern that it should not coincide with the electoral cycle

:27:37. > :27:42.and it is correct that we are intending to have a health check at

:27:43. > :27:47.mid-term. Now I have said rdpeatedly that it is precisely that, ht is a

:27:48. > :27:52.health check. It is not an opening up of the charter. However, it does

:27:53. > :27:58.seem to me only sensible th`t if you are setting a charter for 10 years

:27:59. > :28:02.you should not have no opportunity whatsoever to look at how it is

:28:03. > :28:06.working for the whole of th`t 11-year period. Particularlx at a

:28:07. > :28:11.time when changes are taking place so rapidly. But we have said

:28:12. > :28:16.explicitly in the White Papdr that it is a review to provide a health

:28:17. > :28:20.check focussing on the governance and regulatory reforms of the

:28:21. > :28:24.mid-term. We have also gone on to say that the review will not

:28:25. > :28:28.consider changes to the fundamental mission, purposes and licence fee

:28:29. > :28:33.model as these have been determined by the current charter revidw

:28:34. > :28:36.process. So I make it clear again, this is a health check in order to

:28:37. > :28:39.examine the way in which thd changes that we are putting in placd are

:28:40. > :28:44.working but we do not antichpate that there should be any nedd to

:28:45. > :28:50.reopen questions around the charter. I am happy to give way. Givdn the

:28:51. > :28:55.criticisms that there has bden about the inefficiency and the value for

:28:56. > :28:58.money provided by the BBC and the huge payouts, for example, for

:28:59. > :29:02.people who are made redundant and then come back in nearly a xear

:29:03. > :29:09.later, the National Union of Journalists has even critichsed them

:29:10. > :29:14.for that. The high levels of pay at management level, if after five

:29:15. > :29:18.years it is seen that there has been no reform and no changes in the

:29:19. > :29:22.squandering of money by the BBC what would happen at the review `t that

:29:23. > :29:27.stage? Would he reconsider the licence fee or would he put in

:29:28. > :29:31.greater financial controls? No, I would say to the honourable

:29:32. > :29:34.gentleman we are actually pttting in stronger financial controls now

:29:35. > :29:40.because what we are doing is opening up the whole of the BBC for the

:29:41. > :29:43.National Audit Office to ex`mine to look precisely at questions as

:29:44. > :29:47.whether or not maximum valud for money is being obtained for the

:29:48. > :29:51.licence fee pay -- licence fee payer. Not only will the National

:29:52. > :29:55.Audit Office be able to carry out value for money studies as they have

:29:56. > :30:01.been doing in some areas already, but the National Audit Office will

:30:02. > :30:04.become the auditor of the BBC and the National Audit Office h`ve a

:30:05. > :30:10.very good record of ensuring the public money is spent properly and

:30:11. > :30:16.is not wasted. Whilst perhaps I am on that subject, let me turn to the

:30:17. > :30:20.issue raised by the honourable lady about the extent - yes, I ghve way.

:30:21. > :30:25.I thank the Secretary of St`te. I am wondering on the point of the health

:30:26. > :30:28.check. Does the Secretary of State envisage this health check covering

:30:29. > :30:32.whether or not progress is being made,ed a kwat progress being made

:30:33. > :30:40.to allow access to independdnt producers as set out in the White

:30:41. > :30:45.Paper -- adequate? We have set out a path which we hope will lead to the

:30:46. > :30:51.whole of the BBC schedule bding opened up for commissioning and we

:30:52. > :30:55.would expect the BBC to meet the targets in doing that. That is

:30:56. > :30:59.something which we will continue to talk to the BBC about and wd

:31:00. > :31:02.probably - if it looked as hf they were failing to meet that, that s

:31:03. > :31:07.something we might raise about them before but that is already set out

:31:08. > :31:12.in the charter. It wouldn't require any changes because we have already

:31:13. > :31:17.made clear that we expect the BBC to open up on a gradual basis the whole

:31:18. > :31:21.of the schedule until it re`ches 100%. I haven't forgotten the

:31:22. > :31:26.honourable ladiy's point. I thank the Secretary of State for giving

:31:27. > :31:31.way. Just on the area of independent producers, at the last debate we had

:31:32. > :31:36.on the BBC I would like to thank the Minister of State for helping secure

:31:37. > :31:40.the recordings for the Real McCoy and I hope to have a special

:31:41. > :31:44.screening in parliament with some of the original cast in the not too

:31:45. > :31:48.distant future and I hope you will both come along. I am delighted to

:31:49. > :31:52.have given way to the honourable lady in order to allow her the

:31:53. > :31:59.opportunity to praise my excellent Minister sitting beside me! I wanted

:32:00. > :32:02.to come back to this point `bout the National Audit Office. And their

:32:03. > :32:09.ability to carry value for loney studies right across the BBC's

:32:10. > :32:13.activities. It is correct that the activities of BBC Worldwide are not

:32:14. > :32:19.funded with public money. They are commercially funded. However, the

:32:20. > :32:24.success of BBC Worldwide has a definite impact on the finances of

:32:25. > :32:29.the BBC since it generates hncome for the BBC and it is important that

:32:30. > :32:33.we extract maximum value in order to minimise the burden on the licence

:32:34. > :32:37.fee payer. I have to say, as I mentioned when we debated this issue

:32:38. > :32:44.yesterday in the Select Comlittee, BBC Worldwide have not alwaxs had a

:32:45. > :32:48.brilliant record in terms of looking after the money that they spend The

:32:49. > :32:54.Select Committee, when I was chairing it in the last parliament,

:32:55. > :33:01.was highly critical of the lonely planet saga which resulted hn a

:33:02. > :33:05.massive loss to the BBC Worldwide. However, I can reassure the

:33:06. > :33:09.honourable lady and indeed the BBC that this is a matter which the

:33:10. > :33:13.National Audit Office are vdry aware of the concerns that have bden

:33:14. > :33:17.expressed and they are confhdent that they can provide reasstrance,

:33:18. > :33:23.that it will have no impact, either on the creative decision-making of

:33:24. > :33:27.the BBC, but also in terms of their commercial negotiations with other

:33:28. > :33:32.companies. The National Audht Office already audit a number of ptblic

:33:33. > :33:37.bodies that do have commerchal relationships with other colpanies.

:33:38. > :33:38.They are well familiar with the need to maintain commercial

:33:39. > :33:44.confidentialality, where th`t is necessary.

:33:45. > :33:54.And I know that the controller and the auditor general will continue to

:33:55. > :34:02.work with the BBC. The honotrable lady also talked about the BBC's

:34:03. > :34:08.financial independence. As H said, I believe I have strengthened that

:34:09. > :34:11.rather than diminished it. H think the licence fee should be stbject to

:34:12. > :34:18.a review every five years and the first five-year period it should

:34:19. > :34:24.rise in line with inflation. We have agreed to close the iPlayer loophole

:34:25. > :34:32.and phase out the broadband top slice. The BBC can now plan the

:34:33. > :34:42.licence fee income along with its own commercial earnings and it will

:34:43. > :34:49.have total flexibility in tdrms of how it spends its money. I will

:34:50. > :34:52.happily give way. The Secretary of State is outlining the freedom the

:34:53. > :34:57.BBC will continue to have in terms of expenditure. One of the big

:34:58. > :35:03.concerns the public have is in terms of transparency. Can I ask the

:35:04. > :35:09.Secretary of State why was there the withdrawal from forcing the BBC to

:35:10. > :35:14.publish the pay packages of presenters and the BBC when it was

:35:15. > :35:21.originally going to be around 150,000, now it is up to a lassive

:35:22. > :35:25.450,000. Why was that decishon taken to increase that level when most

:35:26. > :35:28.embers of the public think ht was perfectly reasonable and was public

:35:29. > :35:32.money that should be out thdre and transparent? I hear what thd

:35:33. > :35:36.honourable gentleman says and I have some sympathy with him. This was a

:35:37. > :35:44.matter which we debated with the BBC as to what was the appropri`te level

:35:45. > :35:52.to set for publication. We set it at 450,000 after that debate whth the

:35:53. > :35:56.BBC. As a first step. It will mean that those individuals who `re the

:35:57. > :36:02.highest paid on the BBC payroll will now be identified, but I thhnk that

:36:03. > :36:06.is an important step forward in transparency. I hope it is not the

:36:07. > :36:10.end of the saga and I would in courage the BBC to go furthdr. The

:36:11. > :36:16.BBC did express concerns about the consequences if they were rdquired

:36:17. > :36:22.to publish the names of mord reveals of lower levels of pay. We will see

:36:23. > :36:28.how this first step goes and I share the honourable gentleman's hope that

:36:29. > :36:35.in due course we might see further publication. Might I suggest that

:36:36. > :36:43.tweaking this downwards is something to be reviewed? I'm sure thdy will

:36:44. > :36:48.have heard the pressure that is being put on the Government in order

:36:49. > :36:57.to seek greater transparencx. I hope they will consider that. Is he

:36:58. > :37:04.absolutely certain that nobody wishes to set this at a much lower

:37:05. > :37:09.level? The people who didn't initially want it to be set at a

:37:10. > :37:12.lower level was the BBC. Thd BBC did raise concerns about the potential

:37:13. > :37:19.consequences. They for inst`nce talked about whether or not it might

:37:20. > :37:24.result in poaching. Once people s salary levels are known and also it

:37:25. > :37:26.was a concern that it might have the effect of bidding up salarids. I

:37:27. > :37:32.don't think those concerns `re merited. We have taken a first step

:37:33. > :37:44.towards greater transparencx and I hope that perhaps in due cotrse we

:37:45. > :37:48.can go further. I would address the point made by the honourabld lady

:37:49. > :37:52.about the contestable pot. Ht is a small amount of money, ?60 lillion

:37:53. > :37:56.over three years which out of the total money available to thd BBC is

:37:57. > :37:59.a very small amount. It does not affect the July settlement. We made

:38:00. > :38:05.it absolutely clear that thd Government stands by the July

:38:06. > :38:10.settlement and the funding of the contestable pot does not in any way

:38:11. > :38:14.affect the July settlement. She raises the concerns of whether or

:38:15. > :38:17.not it will fall within the requirements on state aid. H rather

:38:18. > :38:23.hope that that will become `n academic issue in a few weeks' time.

:38:24. > :38:27.If extraordinarily it still applies then that is something we whll need

:38:28. > :38:31.to take into account. Madam Deputy Speaker, far from threatening the

:38:32. > :38:36.BBC, the proposals in the White Paper, as my honourable fridnd said

:38:37. > :38:42.earlier, have been welcomed. Lord Hall has said "This white p`per

:38:43. > :38:46.delivers a mandate for the strong, creative BBC that the public believe

:38:47. > :38:50.income eight BBC that will be good for the creative industries and most

:38:51. > :38:53.importantly of all for Brit`in. The BBC trust chairman has, as H said

:38:54. > :39:00.earlier, talked about the constructive engagement between the

:39:01. > :39:06.BBC and the public which has delivered a White Paper

:39:07. > :39:11.strengthening the BBC's govdrnance and regulation. The chair of the

:39:12. > :39:16.producers's Alliance, Laura Mansfield, has said this is a

:39:17. > :39:22.historic charter for the UK's entire production sector and recognises the

:39:23. > :39:25.world leading creativity th`t British producers bring across every

:39:26. > :39:29.level of production. This White Paper will give BBC commisshoners

:39:30. > :39:38.the freedom to choose the bdst ideas wherever they come from, whhle

:39:39. > :39:40.insuring either to deal supply and regionality is rightly protdcted.

:39:41. > :39:44.The Right Honourable member for Tottenham was one of the first

:39:45. > :39:49.people to celebrate the fact that diversity is for the first time

:39:50. > :39:54.enshrined in the BBC charter. I of course give way. I thank Thd Right

:39:55. > :39:58.Honourable gentleman for giving way. Just on diversity, does he `gree

:39:59. > :40:02.with me that come itself max need to better reflect the obligation of the

:40:03. > :40:07.United Kingdom, especially `s diversity becomes an ever-increasing

:40:08. > :40:16.component of its regulatory requirement? The make up off of

:40:17. > :40:20.come, the amount of people. At the moment their diversity figure that

:40:21. > :40:27.the near management level are at about 6%. My honourable fridnd

:40:28. > :40:32.raises a perfectly valid pohnt. Obviously offer comp is a ptblic

:40:33. > :40:36.body and we would want to sdt an example in achieving divershty and

:40:37. > :40:40.if its performance is below, that is something I know that my honourable

:40:41. > :40:43.friend on the front bench and I would be happy to point out to the

:40:44. > :40:50.chairman and the Chief Execttive. I'm happy to give way. Could he also

:40:51. > :40:54.confirm whether or not one of the benefits for the BBC will bd that

:40:55. > :41:02.they now have access to the database of Sky and other broadcasters so

:41:03. > :41:08.that they can identify the names of relevant people... That is

:41:09. > :41:13.something, we are looking at ways of enforcing the licence fee

:41:14. > :41:18.requirement and obviously anyone who watches live television is required

:41:19. > :41:21.to have a licence and those databases therefore do reprdsent

:41:22. > :41:25.people who are required to have a television licence and that is

:41:26. > :41:28.something we're looking at. I would add to my reply to my honourable

:41:29. > :41:32.friend that whilst I would not in anyway suggest that she is not right

:41:33. > :41:38.to be concerned, of course of Com did make a major step towards

:41:39. > :41:44.greater diversity with the appointment of a female chidf

:41:45. > :41:47.executive who is doing a fantastic job. -- Ofcom. I'm sure she would

:41:48. > :41:54.agree that there is more th`t needs to be done. Just on the matter of

:41:55. > :41:58.diversity and it's an important issue and we're making headway on

:41:59. > :42:02.it, does he believe that designated, ring fenced funding might bd very

:42:03. > :42:06.helpful in driving this divdrsity which is obviously close to many of

:42:07. > :42:19.our hearts, as set out and suggested by many? Well, I mean... We accept

:42:20. > :42:24.diversity is in the charter but how the BBC delivers that is a latter

:42:25. > :42:31.for the BBC. Given that reqtirement, the BBC will have to state how it

:42:32. > :42:38.does it and that will be subject to Ofcom scrutineers well. Mad`m

:42:39. > :42:46.Speaker, the BBC reaches 340 million people around the world every week.

:42:47. > :42:49.It is one of our strongest brands and an important source of

:42:50. > :42:53.information, entertainment. Because the BBC has such a special place in

:42:54. > :42:56.British life and is so valud by the British people and the rest of the

:42:57. > :43:01.world feels the same way, the Government wants to secure hts

:43:02. > :43:04.future and let it thrive in a media landscape that has changed beyond

:43:05. > :43:09.recognition in the last dec`de. That is what the proposals in thhs White

:43:10. > :43:14.Paper do. The original paper was since when an amendment has been

:43:15. > :43:23.proposed... Tom Nichols. Madam Deputy Speaker, I welcome this

:43:24. > :43:28.opportunity to speak about the BBC in the aftermath of the publication

:43:29. > :43:33.of the Government's White P`per on charter renewal and the Secretary of

:43:34. > :43:37.State appearance yesterday before the culture media and sport Select

:43:38. > :43:41.Committee of which I'm a melber We on these benches are passionate

:43:42. > :43:45.defenders of public service broadcasting and independent

:43:46. > :43:51.journalism. It is thought throughout the charter renewal process the BBC

:43:52. > :43:55.has engaged struck Tivoli -, constructively in the debatd about

:43:56. > :44:00.how the BBC can be improved. At its best, the BBC is unsurpassed. Since

:44:01. > :44:05.its foundation in 1922, the BBC s mission has been, as we all know, to

:44:06. > :44:11.inform, to educate and to entertain. It forms one of the cornerstones of

:44:12. > :44:15.all our national lives. In our homes daily it can be both an inthmate

:44:16. > :44:19.friend or sometimes an infuriating relative, but we are proud of it at

:44:20. > :44:25.its best, not least for its world-renowned reputation. @ny

:44:26. > :44:30.organisation which is successful for such a period of time must `dapt. It

:44:31. > :44:35.must be able to embrace changes in technology as well as changds in the

:44:36. > :44:39.site in which it operates. Charter renewal allows the BBC and

:44:40. > :44:45.Parliament to take stock and assess what the BBC is doing well `nd where

:44:46. > :44:50.it needs to improve. For sole on the benches opposite and in the press

:44:51. > :44:54.who dislike the BBC, the process holds out the opportunity to attack

:44:55. > :44:58.the corporation's core functions, and indeed during a charter renewal

:44:59. > :45:07.process we saw some wild notions floated. Am of course were newspaper

:45:08. > :45:11.fabrications. -- some work fabrications. Others work the result

:45:12. > :45:16.of kite flying. Ministers are able to float fanciful notions for

:45:17. > :45:21.radical reform and assess them before the Secretary of State has

:45:22. > :45:24.full horror and tells us th`t of course he had absolutely nothing

:45:25. > :45:28.whatsoever to do with the ltdicrous and impractical proposals splashed

:45:29. > :45:39.across the pages of the matter right wing tabloids all is up -- they

:45:40. > :45:46.madder tabloids. Does he have any constructive criticisms for the BBC?

:45:47. > :45:51.They are not unsurpassed in many ways. Maybe at their best, but their

:45:52. > :45:54.best is not 90% of the time. I would like to thank The Right Honourable

:45:55. > :45:59.gentleman for teeing up the rest of my speech. This is known as opening

:46:00. > :46:02.paragraphs, where I say somdthing nice before heading further south

:46:03. > :46:08.for a good kick where it is well-deserved!

:46:09. > :46:12.LAUGHTER Sorry, mad and beauty Speakdr. I

:46:13. > :46:19.believe the honourable membdr had just replied but I'm told hd did

:46:20. > :46:23.not. -- sorry, Madam Deputy Speaker. He references the Government

:46:24. > :46:27.creating some of the headlines in the right-wing press, as he put it,

:46:28. > :46:32.can I ask him what the logic would be for doing so and then not

:46:33. > :46:38.delivering to that end? It strikes me as very illogical. Madam Deputy

:46:39. > :46:42.Speaker, I'm touched by the honourable gentleman's naivdte. Let

:46:43. > :46:47.me explain the way it works. Politicians sometimes talk to

:46:48. > :46:51.journalists. They say things that they don't want to be quoted as

:46:52. > :46:57.saying. The journalists then report it. If it floats, the polithcian

:46:58. > :47:01.then goes on the record. If it doesn't float, the politici`n backs

:47:02. > :47:05.away from it. That's generally the way it works. I would be happy to

:47:06. > :47:08.introduce him to journalists he might find helpful in this regard in

:47:09. > :47:12.the coming months. In the end, and this is where I disagree to some

:47:13. > :47:16.extent with the Labour shadow secretary, the White Paper hs a

:47:17. > :47:21.relatively unambitious doculent I suspect this may well disappoint the

:47:22. > :47:25.Secretary of State who many think may have wanted a more radical

:47:26. > :47:29.legislative legacy. There are a number of welcome proposals in the

:47:30. > :47:33.White Paper and I'm far frol a cheerleader for the BBC. Thd BBC

:47:34. > :47:37.does many things which are good but the BBC also, and we discovdred this

:47:38. > :47:42.in Scotland during the referendum which I will touch on later, does

:47:43. > :47:47.many things which are less good We welcome the abolition of thd BBC's

:47:48. > :47:50.trust and its replacement bx a unitary board. However, likd many

:47:51. > :47:54.members of the house, I'm worried about the composition of thd new

:47:55. > :47:59.board and its independence. How will nonexecutive members be chosen? Can

:48:00. > :48:03.we be certain they will not be subject to party political pressure?

:48:04. > :48:06.We have had worrying indicators already. The national portr`it

:48:07. > :48:12.Gallery in London was recently looking for a new trustees. The

:48:13. > :48:15.selection panel, in a blind disc, rejected all five of the

:48:16. > :48:20.Government's preferred candhdates. The deck real estate then politely

:48:21. > :48:24.dismissed the selection pandl in its entirety and appointed a new one

:48:25. > :48:28.which pleased him rather more. I pressed him on this during his

:48:29. > :48:32.appearance at the Select Colmittee yesterday, and he told me that the

:48:33. > :48:37.panel had been dismissed because of a technicality. Although he had not

:48:38. > :48:43.necessarily wanted to infludnce the election board, he did want them to

:48:44. > :48:44.know who his preferred candhdates were. This is policy masquerading as

:48:45. > :48:52.process. What would happen at the BBC I

:48:53. > :48:58.asked? Would this happen at the BBC spes I havingly? It seemed obvious

:48:59. > :49:01.from his reaction that it would Well, I don't want independdnt

:49:02. > :49:08.selection panels for the BBC board to know who the Secretary of State's

:49:09. > :49:12.preferred candidates are. I want the BBC board to be entirely independent

:49:13. > :49:16.of Government. I am worried by the evidence that the Secretary of State

:49:17. > :49:21.gave at our committee yesterday as anyone should be across all parties

:49:22. > :49:27.in this House who cares abott the independence of the BBC. Yes. Would

:49:28. > :49:31.he not see the other side of the coin which he is describing is that

:49:32. > :49:36.the BBC, given the bias that exists within it and the fact that it will

:49:37. > :49:39.be able to choose half of the members and the other half chosen by

:49:40. > :49:45.the public appointments comlittee that the real Daning certifhcate

:49:46. > :49:51.that the BBC will simply continue on its merry way choosing the board,

:49:52. > :49:54.half the board from the people it most believes reflect the khnd of

:49:55. > :49:59.BBC values, many of which pdople reject at the moment, whilst there

:50:00. > :50:02.will be a diversity of people chosen by the public appointments board.

:50:03. > :50:07.That's simply called editorhal independence. There should be board

:50:08. > :50:12.members chosen by the BBC who are independent and not subject to

:50:13. > :50:16.politicians' pressure. However, the ones who are non-executive lembers

:50:17. > :50:19.should be entirely independdnt, as well and what worried me yesterday

:50:20. > :50:24.about the Secretary of Statd's evidence was that he showed

:50:25. > :50:27.willingness to apply political pressure on the non-executive board

:50:28. > :50:31.members and that is something that everybody across the House should be

:50:32. > :50:34.disturbed when they hear. I will take the Secretary of State. I am

:50:35. > :50:39.grateful to the honourable gentleman. I am puzzled. Is he

:50:40. > :50:44.suggesting that the Scottish Government should give up its right

:50:45. > :50:49.to have a say over the appohntment of a non-executive director on the

:50:50. > :50:54.BBC board? I am absolutely delighted for the Scottish Government to have

:50:55. > :51:00.a say. My objection, however, is something different. My objdction is

:51:01. > :51:04.for political pressure to bd put on the appointments, specifically and

:51:05. > :51:08.mainly in the main board because obviously as we all know thd main

:51:09. > :51:12.board with the number of melbers that it has will be enormously

:51:13. > :51:16.powerful. In fact, the Secrdtary of State yesterday argued how different

:51:17. > :51:20.this board would be from thd previous Trust. He said this board

:51:21. > :51:25.will have real teeth. Therefore it is vital that we should havd fully

:51:26. > :51:27.independent board members specifically the non-executhve ones

:51:28. > :51:32.that the Government wishes to appoint. Yes. I thank the honourable

:51:33. > :51:38.gentleman for giving way ag`in. I wonder what he thinks simplx whether

:51:39. > :51:44.or not the new BBC board is more or less accountable and more or less

:51:45. > :51:48.Democrat yak than the outgohng BBC -- democratic than the outgoing BBC

:51:49. > :51:53.Trust? We don't know yet. That's precisely why I am addressing these

:51:54. > :51:55.concerns in parliament todax because if the non-executive board lembers

:51:56. > :52:00.are truly independent then of course it's a great thing. But the evidence

:52:01. > :52:04.of the Secretary of State ydsterday was worrying for the reasons that I

:52:05. > :52:08.have given. Now trust in thd BBC is after all crucial and it's no

:52:09. > :52:13.secret, as my honourable frhends have mentioned, that many in

:52:14. > :52:17.Scotland have been suspiciots of BBC objectivity in recent years. The

:52:18. > :52:22.Secretary of State said a short while ago that a majority vdrdict in

:52:23. > :52:26.Scotland, although he acknowledged a lesser number, were pleased with the

:52:27. > :52:34.BBC. Let me give you the figure The figure from the BBC Trust itself.

:52:35. > :52:40.The BBC enjoys only a 48% satisfaction rating in Scotland

:52:41. > :52:42.Less than half for those who are numerically challenged. Somdtimes

:52:43. > :52:47.criticisms of the BBC in Scotland have been fair. Sometimes criticisms

:52:48. > :52:51.have not. But the BBC itself and the Secretary of State acknowledged this

:52:52. > :52:56.has a problem in Scotland. So we welcome other proposals in the White

:52:57. > :53:00.Paper. Licence services issted by the new regulator Ofcom will include

:53:01. > :53:04.specific regulatory provision for all the nations. Out of London

:53:05. > :53:07.quotas will be maintained which should enable a healthy inddpendent

:53:08. > :53:12.production sector in the nations and regions. The BBC's network

:53:13. > :53:16.television supply target will be 17% for content spending in the nations,

:53:17. > :53:20.with spending proportionate to the population of each nation. Now this

:53:21. > :53:27.suggests some progress in adapting the BBC to the changing needs of

:53:28. > :53:30.these Islands in 2016 and bdyond. Of course, many of the changes required

:53:31. > :53:37.must come from within the BBC itself. There are proposals for the

:53:38. > :53:40.creation of a BBC Scotland board overseeing dedicated nation,specific

:53:41. > :53:45.services. This would help ddvolve decision-making increasing the

:53:46. > :53:48.likelihood of relevant and reflective content suited for

:53:49. > :53:54.distinct audiences. We welcome the idea of a separate Scottish board as

:53:55. > :53:59.proposed. We want to see a BBC that is editorially independent `nd well

:54:00. > :54:03.resourced. A BBC that is bold and creative and, crucially, a BBC that

:54:04. > :54:08.is representative of and delivers for both Scottish and UK audiences

:54:09. > :54:12.as a whole. With a more responsive governance structure we belheve that

:54:13. > :54:18.the BBC would be more nimbld and better able to address the concerns

:54:19. > :54:24.of audiences. I thank my honourable friend for giving way. He whll be

:54:25. > :54:31.aware that the Chancellor rdcently cut ?1 million without warnhng from

:54:32. > :54:36.the budget of BBC Alba, the media service which flies in the face of

:54:37. > :54:40.support in the White Paper. Does he agree this throws the Government's

:54:41. > :54:48.motives more generally into question? I agree that this was most

:54:49. > :54:53.disappointing because that's a fine product and is universally `dmired

:54:54. > :54:56.across all parties in Scotl`nd. The Gaelic language is a struggling

:54:57. > :55:01.language, part of our national culture. And every opportunhty that

:55:02. > :55:05.we can have to enhance, embrace and support the Gaelic language,

:55:06. > :55:09.especially on television, should be taken. Thank you. Does he not agree

:55:10. > :55:13.that it's in all our interests that we have a board that reflects the

:55:14. > :55:20.entirety of the society that we are in and to have a board that will be

:55:21. > :55:25.filled and packed with leftx luvvies does his cause and my cause no good.

:55:26. > :55:29.It would be right for the Mhnister at times to ensure there might be

:55:30. > :55:33.someone centrist or maybe even slightly to the right on th`t board?

:55:34. > :55:36.One thing the gentleman does himself down, perhaps in Northern Ireland he

:55:37. > :55:44.is seen as a radical but here I have always seen him as a centrist

:55:45. > :55:53.luvvie... LAUGHTER. I think, of coursd, that

:55:54. > :55:59.the BBC should reflect the society in which we all live. We recently,

:56:00. > :56:03.sorry the honourable gentlelan has mentioned deselection, I didn't mean

:56:04. > :56:10.to be quite so wounding. I think, of course, as we all saw in our recent

:56:11. > :56:14.debate about lesbian and gax representation, something I know the

:56:15. > :56:19.honourable gentleman cares passionately about, I think that we

:56:20. > :56:22.are keen to see more equal representation at all levels in the

:56:23. > :56:26.BBC, from presenters to man`gement and of course on the new bo`rd. Now

:56:27. > :56:31.combined with greater financial commissioning and editorial control

:56:32. > :56:34.we believe that the BBC in Scotland can provide relevant, reflective

:56:35. > :56:39.programming and support our nations' creative industries. We belheve that

:56:40. > :56:44.bringing the BBC closer to viewers and listener in Scotland is the best

:56:45. > :56:49.way of ensuring that trust hn and satisfaction with the BBC and making

:56:50. > :56:55.sure that it is rebuilt and retained. Now let me turn to the

:56:56. > :57:00.issue of news provision in Scotland. I think this lies at the he`rt of

:57:01. > :57:04.the problem of trust for thd BBC in Scotland. Some members of the House

:57:05. > :57:08.may know I spent much of my previous career in television news and

:57:09. > :57:15.current affairs. I reported for Pan ram in a and Newsnight and presented

:57:16. > :57:21.BBC breakfast and ITV News ,- Pan ram in a. I am passionate about

:57:22. > :57:25.editorially independent news. I speak as a friend, albeit a critical

:57:26. > :57:31.one, when I say I do not thhnk the BBC covered itself in glory during

:57:32. > :57:36.our referendum on independence. The model for coverage was wrong. The

:57:37. > :57:40.BBC treated a binary choice as though it was a traditional

:57:41. > :57:46.election. And proponents of the status quo were subjected to much

:57:47. > :57:51.less scrutiny than those who wanted constitutional change. Isn't this

:57:52. > :57:58.really simply the fact that the BBC had the gross audacity to point out

:57:59. > :58:02.that an economic plan based on 100 a barrel was, frankly, nonsdnse

:58:03. > :58:09.That's a soundbite. That's not an answer to the arguments that I was

:58:10. > :58:15.putting forward. So, let me repeat it again. The problem was that the

:58:16. > :58:20.BBC treated the referendum coverage, not as a binary choice, but as a

:58:21. > :58:24.traditional election. The BBC recognises that it made a mhstake in

:58:25. > :58:30.that. Let me tell you how the BBC recognises that. The BBC on the one

:58:31. > :58:34.hand says we make no mistakds whatsoever in our coverage of the

:58:35. > :58:38.referendum. But then simult`neously the BBC says, we must learn the

:58:39. > :58:42.lessons from the Scottish rdferendum in the way that we covered the

:58:43. > :58:46.European referendum and thex tell me now that's what they've dond in the

:58:47. > :58:50.current coverage. You cannot say you made no mistakes in covering the

:58:51. > :58:54.Scottish referendum, and sax simultaneously that you will learn

:58:55. > :58:57.mistakes from it. It is intellectually incoherent. H thank

:58:58. > :59:01.the member for raising this point. I think he is absolutely right on this

:59:02. > :59:05.matter. It goes to the heart of where the BBC is actually critically

:59:06. > :59:10.wrong. Because that coveragd could have determined the outcome of the

:59:11. > :59:15.electoral process. It happened in our country in 1998 when Alhstair

:59:16. > :59:21.Campbell flew to Belfast and said he could rely on his friends in the BBC

:59:22. > :59:24.and the press to do the job of the Government for him. And why the

:59:25. > :59:27.Government has lost credibility Why today it stands in a shamblds in

:59:28. > :59:32.Northern Ireland. There is `greement the BBC didn't do well in Scotland

:59:33. > :59:35.during the referendum. The corporation looked stretched and

:59:36. > :59:40.dated and there were fresh calls for what became known as the Scottish

:59:41. > :59:49.six. Now at the moment in Scotland the evening news on TV cannot cover

:59:50. > :59:53.any news item with Scotland. Armageddon in Carlisle, well the BBC

:59:54. > :59:57.Scotland coverage will lead on an air show. Now that's not thd fault

:59:58. > :00:00.of the journalists and I soletimes get e-mails from people sayhng

:00:01. > :00:05.they're upset when I say thhs. Let me make that clear, that's not the

:00:06. > :00:10.fault of the journalists. It's the fault of the remit. It leads to

:00:11. > :00:15.entrenched provincealism. The BBC has been piloting a new grown-up

:00:16. > :00:20.programme which would cover news based on merit. It would have a

:00:21. > :00:25.normal remit. If the main story is a UK one, that will lead the news If

:00:26. > :00:30.American, that will lead thd news. If Scottish, that will lead the

:00:31. > :00:35.news. BBC Radio Scotland has done this for decades. BBC Alaba has done

:00:36. > :00:40.this for a number of years. I am interested in the argument that he

:00:41. > :00:46.is making. Most people don't think the BBC is biased. However, could he

:00:47. > :00:50.give an example of where he has a grievance on a particular story

:00:51. > :00:55.which was biased and we can perhaps look into it and judge it on its

:00:56. > :01:00.merits. Just an example. Ond example. Well, it's not a qtestion

:01:01. > :01:04.of one example. It was a qudstion of the ongoing nature of the coverage

:01:05. > :01:09.during the referendum. That was the problem as I have tried to dxplain.

:01:10. > :01:15.The problem was an ongoing problem. But at the end of the day you don't

:01:16. > :01:19.have to take my word for thhs. The fact that the BBC's approval ratings

:01:20. > :01:24.are so low in Scotland obviously shows that there is a probldm. There

:01:25. > :01:28.is no point looking at figures that show 52% of people believe that the

:01:29. > :01:34.BBC doesn't cover the country well and then say it is just the SNP

:01:35. > :01:38.making a big fuss about it. It's a deeply entrenched and a problem in

:01:39. > :01:41.Scotland and as somebody who loves independent journalism who H hope

:01:42. > :01:45.has made it clear in my earlier comments about the independdnce of

:01:46. > :01:54.the BBC, I hope that you will take me at face value when I say I want

:01:55. > :01:58.to see an editorially indepdndent BBC Scotland and indeed BBC network.

:01:59. > :02:03.Do you mind if I proceed for a moment? There have been rumours of

:02:04. > :02:06.political interference eman`ting recently on the subject of the

:02:07. > :02:11.Scottish six from worried BBC staffers. Let me remind the

:02:12. > :02:17.Secretary of State about our chats on the subject over the past few

:02:18. > :02:20.months. Now charmingly, if candidly, he said yesterday at the Select

:02:21. > :02:26.Committee that he was, quotd, not qualified to judge the BBC's output

:02:27. > :02:30.in Scotland for the or -- or the reasons for its unpopularitx. On

:02:31. > :02:35.that we are agreed. He is not qualified. In March, however, he

:02:36. > :02:38.told me in this chamber, th`t he agreed that increased investment and

:02:39. > :02:44.employment at BBC Scotland would be beneficial. Quote, I obviously

:02:45. > :02:48.welcome any investment at the BBC that will create additional jobs,

:02:49. > :02:52.especially in Scotland, he said On that occasion when I asked `bout the

:02:53. > :02:59.separate Scottish six, the Secretary of State assured me that it was a

:03:00. > :03:02.matter for the BBC and neither he nor his colleagues at 10 Downing

:03:03. > :03:08.Street would want to interfdre. I hope he recalls his comments and he

:03:09. > :03:11.nods to say that he does. However, yesterday when I pressed hil three

:03:12. > :03:18.times at the Select Committde on whether he had been talking to BBC

:03:19. > :03:22.bosses about the issue six or trying to -- influence them his body

:03:23. > :03:26.language looked uncomfortable and eventually he conceded something

:03:27. > :03:31.different. He told me that he might have concerns if he felt th`t the

:03:32. > :03:36.central place of the BBC in providing a nation-wide news

:03:37. > :03:41.bulletin was being changed. He added, the BBC has a responsibility

:03:42. > :04:04.to bring the nation together and and news is part of that.

:04:05. > :04:12.That is what has caused all the distrust in Scotland. The job of the

:04:13. > :04:15.BBC is to be editorially and journalistically independent. The

:04:16. > :04:20.Secretary of State should bd playing no role whatsoever in trying to

:04:21. > :04:26.influence or block a separate Scottish six. He himself st`ted

:04:27. > :04:29.several times that it should be a matter for the BBC and he w`s not

:04:30. > :04:35.qualified to judge because he was not thoroughly with the BBC's output

:04:36. > :04:40.in Scotland. Such interference would undermine the statements made in the

:04:41. > :04:44.White Paper regarding restoring confidence there. It would show a

:04:45. > :04:48.blatant this regard and lack of respect for the constituent nations

:04:49. > :04:53.of the UK including the devolved administrations, who partichpated

:04:54. > :04:58.fully in the charter renewal process and in good faith. Furthermore, it

:04:59. > :05:05.would undermine the plans which the BBC is intent on implementing. So

:05:06. > :05:09.there we have it, Madam Deptty Speaker. A White Paper with which we

:05:10. > :05:13.broadly agree but worrying signs that the Government wants to Tampa.

:05:14. > :05:19.To tamper with the editorial independence of the BBC in Scotland

:05:20. > :05:24.and to tamper with the political independence of the proposed new BBC

:05:25. > :05:30.board in London. We on thesd benches will resist both, just as wd will

:05:31. > :05:33.fight any upcoming moves to privatise Channel 4. With Mr

:05:34. > :05:39.Speaker's permission, I am now heading to the Select Committee to

:05:40. > :05:44.hear Channel 4's annual report and to offer them some moral support.

:05:45. > :05:50.Interference in the decision-making of the BBC by the Government would

:05:51. > :05:54.give the independence of thd BBC, a key feature of the organisation

:05:55. > :06:00.into jeopardy, tarnishing its reliability and its reputathon.

:06:01. > :06:04.Order. There are eight membdrs wishing to speak in this debate

:06:05. > :06:09.We're hoping to finish at about 4:30pm. If everyone sticks to about

:06:10. > :06:14.ten minutes, we should come in in perfect time. Thank you, Madam

:06:15. > :06:20.Deputy Speaker. I should also declare, as the honourable lember

:06:21. > :06:24.who preceded me just mentioned, I spent five of the happiest xears at

:06:25. > :06:27.the BBC and I have the same any of the people I worked with thdre were

:06:28. > :06:31.some of the finest professionals I've worked with anywhere in that

:06:32. > :06:35.regard. Many existed on verx low salaries very much in contr`st to

:06:36. > :06:41.the supposed talent that so often fills our pages. And that is not a

:06:42. > :06:47.moan about my own salary of course! One of the main duties of any

:06:48. > :06:50.Government is the maintenance of our country's most important

:06:51. > :06:52.institutions and the BBC is undoubtedly one of these. Mhllions

:06:53. > :06:58.of people enjoy its output dvery year. For me though, this doesn t

:06:59. > :07:02.mean keeping them flush with public money and shielding them from

:07:03. > :07:04.change, but fighting for reforms that ensure their long-term

:07:05. > :07:10.sustainability and relevancd to modern world. While this produces

:07:11. > :07:15.many excellent programmes as an important part of the UK's

:07:16. > :07:18.extraordinary global influence, it's becoming increasingly appardnt

:07:19. > :07:23.except perhaps to the corporation's most highly paid stars, that the BBC

:07:24. > :07:30.must change further. Its broadcasting model, based on the

:07:31. > :07:34.ideal of millions of familids watching live broadcasts, is

:07:35. > :07:40.increasingly becoming outdated. In some cases it smothers independent

:07:41. > :07:45.local journalism in the process It is levying what is one of the BBC's

:07:46. > :07:51.-- the country's most regressive taxes, the licence fee. The charter

:07:52. > :07:54.offers some very important things, to refocus the corporation on the

:07:55. > :08:01.core functions which justifx its present place as a state funded

:08:02. > :08:04.broadcaster, and, I trust, to wean it off the licence fee gradtally

:08:05. > :08:12.over the longer term and to open itself up to the calming winds of

:08:13. > :08:19.competition and outside production. When I was setting out on mx career,

:08:20. > :08:23.and many journalists that wdre around me, got their first jobs at

:08:24. > :08:28.thriving local newspapers which provided British journalism with a

:08:29. > :08:32.natural talent scouting system which benefited all of us, includhng the

:08:33. > :08:37.BBC. The BBC was never meant to compete with newspapers yet today

:08:38. > :08:45.the BBC News website underctts a lot of local and national journ`lism.

:08:46. > :08:51.Journalists provide an important public service. Can the BBC have

:08:52. > :08:56.journalists everywhere? Of course not. The BBC concentrate jobs

:08:57. > :09:01.seemingly now in London and Manchester. Even major citids suffer

:09:02. > :09:05.the consequences. In my expdrience for example in BBC Birmingh`m, we

:09:06. > :09:08.are all too often not even treated as the tender relic, we're not even

:09:09. > :09:14.allowed frankly to sweep thd floor when it comes to BBC largess and I

:09:15. > :09:20.really do applaud the campahgn that is in the Birmingham Post m`il

:09:21. > :09:26.trying to get a fairer deal for our region in that regard. When the move

:09:27. > :09:31.was made to Manchester, it was said that this would be increasing

:09:32. > :09:35.regional diversity. But I think that actually in some respects the

:09:36. > :09:41.corporation is seen as it w`s in the beginning and end of the process.

:09:42. > :09:46.Really in many respects the biggest thing they've actually done is

:09:47. > :09:49.increased house prices in ldafy Cheshire suburbs rather than actual

:09:50. > :09:55.genuine regional diversity. What we're seeing now created... I thank

:09:56. > :10:00.the honourable member for ghving way. As a Greater Manchester MPI do

:10:01. > :10:05.feel that the move of the BBC to Salford, not Manchester, had

:10:06. > :10:09.actually done a lot to improve the diversity of the BBC and it is nice

:10:10. > :10:12.to hear a lot of northern accidents on the radio these days, whhch

:10:13. > :10:16.didn't used to happen in thd past. Thank you. But what has acttally

:10:17. > :10:18.happened in that regard is that we've created a bipolar

:10:19. > :10:26.Organisation. There has been a move from other regions like Birlingham

:10:27. > :10:31.to these two centres. That was the natural consequence of the huge sums

:10:32. > :10:35.that were invested. I'm not going to be just in terms of Salford,

:10:36. > :10:38.obviously it is fantastic in terms of that community, however, there

:10:39. > :10:41.were reports in terms of thd actual number of local people that were

:10:42. > :10:45.employed when the BBC initi`lly set up there was not very satisfactory

:10:46. > :10:50.in that respect. However, I do think what has happened is that they think

:10:51. > :10:54.almost the case is done in that regard when they came up with this

:10:55. > :10:59.process. What I would reallx like to see is a genuine diversity `nd that

:11:00. > :11:03.can also include the role of nations, as discussed in thd White

:11:04. > :11:07.Paper, but for the Miss reghons in that respect, so we can really see

:11:08. > :11:11.the BBC drilling down into local communities to deliver news and

:11:12. > :11:16.content that actually makes a difference but supports, but

:11:17. > :11:21.supports, private-sector. Ctrrent proposals for the BBC to usd local

:11:22. > :11:25.newspaper content such as court circulars and court documents are

:11:26. > :11:30.better than nothing, court reporting. But it is a bit of a sad

:11:31. > :11:34.indictment that effectively some local newspapers are going to be

:11:35. > :11:39.frankly wire services for the BBC News website. Previous governments I

:11:40. > :11:43.think were rather flat-footdd in updating its charter to the online

:11:44. > :11:49.age and slow to recognise the dangers of the growth of jotrnalism

:11:50. > :11:54.and regional diversity. Another thing holding the BBC back over the

:11:55. > :11:58.long-term is, I believe, thd licence fee. This might seem strangd given

:11:59. > :12:05.the ferocity with which the BBC supporters have fought to ddfend it,

:12:06. > :12:10.but I believe is doing more to. . My wife and I grew up in an er` of mass

:12:11. > :12:14.broadcasts and TV specials watched by number of millions but the number

:12:15. > :12:17.of times we watch TV togethdr a month these days can be counted

:12:18. > :12:22.frankly on the fingers of one hand and that's not just due to the work

:12:23. > :12:26.done in this place, but it hs genuinely something accountdd by

:12:27. > :12:33.many people around the country. To younger people raised in thd days of

:12:34. > :12:38.On Demand, Netflix and you chewed, that it is not even a memorx. Yet

:12:39. > :12:42.the BBC remains committed to the regressive tax in terms of the

:12:43. > :12:48.licence fee. If you were to arrive at the licence fee today, how could

:12:49. > :12:52.you actually justify it? It's a flat levy, the same for rich and poor

:12:53. > :12:56.alike, charged to anybody w`tching programming whether or not they

:12:57. > :13:02.consume BBC services and backed by the threat of criminal prosdcution.

:13:03. > :13:05.It really doesn't have any place in the broadcasting model for the

:13:06. > :13:10.21st-century. We must not bd reckless with the BBC... With the

:13:11. > :13:14.honourable member not recognise that the BBC is the envy of countries the

:13:15. > :13:18.world over. In Australia whdre I'm from, the ABC for example, ht's

:13:19. > :13:25.public service broadcasting that is important here... In Australia the

:13:26. > :13:29.ABC is funded largely by Government. It has experienced cut after cut of

:13:30. > :13:34.the cut in its budgeting ovdr those years and it has suffered as a

:13:35. > :13:37.result. Apparently though it is not so universally regarded in Scotland,

:13:38. > :13:42.according to the honourable gentleman's previous beach hn that

:13:43. > :13:46.regard. We must not be reckless with the BBC, as I said earlier on. I

:13:47. > :13:49.think it would be an act of vandalism to simply turn off the tap

:13:50. > :13:53.without giving it time to transition to a new way of doing things. But

:13:54. > :14:00.the message from this chartdr must be loud and clear. They need to move

:14:01. > :14:05.on. I hope the licence fee's days are numbered. BBC managers now

:14:06. > :14:08.demand a higher fee extended to the website and criminal prosecttion,

:14:09. > :14:12.must acknowledge this. As for the mid-term review I think this is a

:14:13. > :14:17.sensible health check to sed it is moving in the right direction. I do

:14:18. > :14:21.hope as well this does encolpass independent reduction and the BBC's

:14:22. > :14:25.move towards independent production. That is ultimately the only way in

:14:26. > :14:30.which it's going to be able to move and wean itself off the licdnce fee.

:14:31. > :14:33.The white paper, Madam Deputy Speaker, contains some promhsing

:14:34. > :14:37.steps in the right direction. For example the opening up of more

:14:38. > :14:41.production contracts to inddpendent companies are allowing them to

:14:42. > :14:44.compete for funding. But thdre must be clear targets for such

:14:45. > :14:48.diversification, so that BBC managers can be held to account and

:14:49. > :14:53.ensure they are making adeqtate progress. They must also make sure

:14:54. > :14:59.that the BBC is proactive in finding fairer and more imaginative ways of

:15:00. > :15:03.funding its services. Many of its assets are not poor to its public

:15:04. > :15:07.service function and could dasily be made subscription services. I

:15:08. > :15:13.welcome, as do many members of this house, the initiative to brhng in

:15:14. > :15:18.the National Audit Office when it comes to the BBC's activitids. I

:15:19. > :15:22.credit the Right Honourable gentleman and pay respect for his

:15:23. > :15:26.experience in this area. If he's looking for a logic in the structure

:15:27. > :15:29.of the BBC, he's going to bd disappointed. The BBC is above that.

:15:30. > :15:34.It is an utterly unique institution, there is no similar corporate

:15:35. > :15:38.structure anywhere and we h`ve a system here which, on paper, seems

:15:39. > :15:44.bizarre, but I haven't done it works! Can we not just glorx in this

:15:45. > :15:48.special, unique, and I say British BBC? The honourable gentlem`n has

:15:49. > :15:56.now secured his place on BBC News 24 paper review for the next these of

:15:57. > :16:02.course! In view of the honotrable gentleman earlier, if there is a

:16:03. > :16:09.place for a lefty luvvie on the board, I am one of those thhngs You

:16:10. > :16:18.can expect the headhunters to call shortly! If the audience and quality

:16:19. > :16:22.programme are both there, they will survive and thrive. If not, why are

:16:23. > :16:33.we expecting the poorest to pay for them? A fair and flexible ftnding

:16:34. > :16:39.model... I the core functions of problem service broadcasting are

:16:40. > :16:44.good for the BBC as well. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I havd deep

:16:45. > :16:48.concerns about the White Paper. Last month the Secretary of Statd for

:16:49. > :16:55.culture media and sport published his long-awaited White Paper which

:16:56. > :17:03.we've all seen. On the BBC's charter renewal. In response to the

:17:04. > :17:06.overwhelming response from the public, the honourable membdr the

:17:07. > :17:09.Secretary of State has climbed down from some of his most radic`l

:17:10. > :17:15.proposals. Strictly Come Dancing will no longer be banned and the BBC

:17:16. > :17:21.will no longer be forced to sell off its highly profitable stake in UK

:17:22. > :17:28.TV. The powerful unitary bo`rd will no longer be pact with Government

:17:29. > :17:32.appointees. The way this has been handled suggests that these

:17:33. > :17:35.suggestions were either leaked to gauge public opinion on the

:17:36. > :17:40.Secretary of State's long hdld intentions against the BBC ought to

:17:41. > :17:46.make his proposals seem paltry by comparison. Whatever his intention,

:17:47. > :17:50.he has laid bare his fundamdntal bits like of the BBC and wh`t it

:17:51. > :17:55.stands for. I do welcome in the White Paper the publication of

:17:56. > :18:00.salaries above ?450,000. However, I do question why there is a threshold

:18:01. > :18:04.of ?150,000 where people ardn't going to be named, yet as MPs and in

:18:05. > :18:09.public life we talk about that figure and below as being a figure

:18:10. > :18:15.that should be put into the public realm. Why the figure of ?440,0 0?

:18:16. > :18:19.To my constituents, people hn the broadcasting industry on ?300,0 0,

:18:20. > :18:27.that is a considerable amount of money. I agree that closing the

:18:28. > :18:30.iPlayer loophole is important. We are seeing a transformation in the

:18:31. > :18:35.broadcasting delivery, the way that broadcasting TV is delivered. It is

:18:36. > :18:40.important that the Government in this country keeps up-to-date with

:18:41. > :18:43.those changes. I also welcole the increase in the funding for the

:18:44. > :18:47.World Service. I think this is long overdue all-star after the hssues we

:18:48. > :18:50.had around the World Servicd a view years ago where there were changes

:18:51. > :18:55.to the World Service and reductions, moving it from the office do the BBC

:18:56. > :19:01.which was effectively a redtction in the BBC budget and also had

:19:02. > :19:03.consequences for the delivery, which I believe some of those havd seen a

:19:04. > :19:11.U-turn. I welcome the 11 years for the

:19:12. > :19:15.renewal instead of ten. If the Government collapses or if we have a

:19:16. > :19:19.general election outside of the five years circle will that aspiration be

:19:20. > :19:23.lost and what mechanism can be put in to ensure that the fundalental

:19:24. > :19:27.principle of this being non-political as he says, that the

:19:28. > :19:33.cycle of the charter renewal falls after a general election, should

:19:34. > :19:41.general elections not fall hn five-year circles? I want to say

:19:42. > :19:47.further, it is my opinion that there are significant proposals - problems

:19:48. > :19:50.within the Government's proposals. These persist, despite the Secretary

:19:51. > :19:56.of State's apparent U-turns in the last few weeks. Problems whhch could

:19:57. > :20:02.have a significant impact on the BBC's independence, remit and

:20:03. > :20:07.purpose. Part of what makes the BBC such a fundamental cornerstone of

:20:08. > :20:10.our democracy is its independence from politics, unlike other media

:20:11. > :20:15.corporations it is a public service accountable to the public and

:20:16. > :20:22.because it is beholden to all of us it can hold to account thosd in

:20:23. > :20:27.power. The UK public and, more importantly, internationallx it is

:20:28. > :20:35.respected for its impartialhty. The Government's proposals for ` new BBC

:20:36. > :20:43.unitay board threaten to undermine this impartiality, although the

:20:44. > :20:46.Secretary of State was thwtd did efforts to appoint a majority of

:20:47. > :20:52.board members. Given that the new board will have far greater powers

:20:53. > :20:56.than the current BBC Trust, since appointees will make operathonal and

:20:57. > :21:01.strategic decisions which whll determine the BBC's future, his

:21:02. > :21:04.proposals constitute a worrxing attack on the organisation's

:21:05. > :21:09.impartiality. Given than thd Secretary of State has described the

:21:10. > :21:15.BBC's abolition as a tempting prospect, it is hardly surprising

:21:16. > :21:21.that 62% of over 60s admittdd to having no confidence in the

:21:22. > :21:27.Government to protect the BBC during its charter renewal. Indeed, their

:21:28. > :21:32.concerns are entirely jufed. Before he set sights on the BBC thd

:21:33. > :21:35.Secretary of State intervendd in the National Portrait Gallery's

:21:36. > :21:41.recruitment process and people have a right to be concerned abott his

:21:42. > :21:46.track record. He's got a tr`ck record and form on interferdnce

:21:47. > :21:54.after his preferred candidates were not shortlisted and he decided to

:21:55. > :21:59.rerun the selection process. Such a willingness to intervene is

:22:00. > :22:03.undoubtedly a frightening precedent for the appointments procedtre of

:22:04. > :22:08.the new BBC board. Equally worrying, is the Government's insistence on a

:22:09. > :22:12.five-year review of the charter and a health check he says, and the

:22:13. > :22:19.encouragement of commercial rivals to bid for licence fee monex. Whilst

:22:20. > :22:23.the former will prevent the BBC from carrying out long-term planning the

:22:24. > :22:29.encouragement of the commercial rivals to bid for licence fde money

:22:30. > :22:34.will accelerate the erosion of the organisation's financial

:22:35. > :22:40.independence, taking money `way from the BBC undermines its abilhty to

:22:41. > :22:46.deliver services. We have sden a worrying reduction or changds to BBC

:22:47. > :22:52.online, a reduction to BBC radio, a reduction. And a worrying threat, a

:22:53. > :22:56.sword of Damacles that seems to hang over BBC 24. Going to the fhve-year

:22:57. > :23:01.health check, the Secretary of State talks about this health check being

:23:02. > :23:06.mid-term and he not interfering No matter what promises he makds, he

:23:07. > :23:11.cannot escape that the five,year health check is an intr vention It

:23:12. > :23:17.is a dialogue between the Government and the BBC. What is the pohnt of

:23:18. > :23:23.this review, this health chdck, if the Government has no powers within

:23:24. > :23:31.it? An ability to change thd BBC should the health check show failing

:23:32. > :23:36.health, in my opinion, this is a political tool of the Government.

:23:37. > :23:43.Measures such as these are completely at odds with the wider

:23:44. > :23:47.public opinion and threatens to damage the UK's influence abroad

:23:48. > :23:55.through the BBC. 97% of the population use the BBC for `round 18

:23:56. > :24:00.hours a week. It is popular. 76 of people think the BBC delivers value

:24:01. > :24:06.for money. Yet despite this the Secretary of State wants to

:24:07. > :24:10.transform the BBC's entire lission under the banner of distinctiveness

:24:11. > :24:14.and here I worry. Although he himself could not provide any

:24:15. > :24:20.definition of distinctiveness to the Select Committee, I don't think the

:24:21. > :24:25.public will be fooled into believing that this represents anything other

:24:26. > :24:31.than an attempt to marginalhse the BBC in favour of its commercial

:24:32. > :24:36.competitors. The requirement of a so-called distinctive content

:24:37. > :24:42.overseen by the commercial regulator Ofcom will inevitably underline the

:24:43. > :24:46.BBC by restricting its popularity. It will push popular progralmes off

:24:47. > :24:52.peak time slots and the problem will be that less popular shows will then

:24:53. > :24:57.harm the BBC's excellent vidwing figures and reputation. This in turn

:24:58. > :25:03.will enable a future Governlent to push an agenda of further ctts and

:25:04. > :25:08.reforms with the Government having set the BBC up to fail. Looking at

:25:09. > :25:14.some of the other reforms. Cash grabs. Such as the Chancellor's

:25:15. > :25:20.transfer of over 75 licensing costs from the DWP to the BBC and efforts

:25:21. > :25:24.to ex-punning BBC services `s we saw in the Government's attempt to

:25:25. > :25:29.remove online recipes will become commonplace and further dam`ge the

:25:30. > :25:36.BBC's reputation -- expunge. The result will be a BBC lacking in

:25:37. > :25:42.impartiality, financial autonomy, independence and with its rdputation

:25:43. > :25:45.for quality broadcasting undermined. An immense amount of public pressure

:25:46. > :25:52.forced the Secretary of State to step away from some of the `ttacks

:25:53. > :25:56.on the BBC's online recipes, some of its better broadcasting, Strictly

:25:57. > :26:01.and The Great British Bake Off. This is on top of Government previous

:26:02. > :26:05.attacks on the excellent BBC online services, BBC's local and

:26:06. > :26:08.international radio content, amongst other attacks. There are other

:26:09. > :26:12.issues outside the White Paper that are not being addressed such as the

:26:13. > :26:17.charges that the BBC are having to face to pay for delivery vi`

:26:18. > :26:22.satellite. This incurse a cost on the BBC that ought to be addressed.

:26:23. > :26:26.-- incurs. I believe the prdssure on the Secretary of State maus be -

:26:27. > :26:31.mus be maintained to protect the BBC and the public interests to make him

:26:32. > :26:35.withdraw the attacks on the BBC s independence and to uphold the great

:26:36. > :26:41.virtues of the BBC that hold it in the highest esteem, not onlx in the

:26:42. > :26:45.UK but around the world. Th`nk you. Thank you, it's a pleasure to follow

:26:46. > :26:52.the honourable member. It's also a pleasure to be able to speak in this

:26:53. > :26:57.debate about the BBC's future and with that in mind and I -- can I

:26:58. > :27:01.thank the honourable member for giving us this opportunity to do so.

:27:02. > :27:05.She's right when she mentioned that the BBC is revered and a trtsted

:27:06. > :27:10.national institution which we should view with great pride. I certainly

:27:11. > :27:15.do so from these benches. Indeed we should also be minded that the BBC

:27:16. > :27:22.costs its licence fee payers just 40p a day. That is the same price I

:27:23. > :27:27.believe as The Sun and I will perhaps leave the analogy there I

:27:28. > :27:30.would also maintain the BBC is important, particularly following

:27:31. > :27:34.this Government's commitment to improved social mobility. The fact

:27:35. > :27:38.that for all, particularly children growing up, particularly chhldren

:27:39. > :27:41.growing up from the poorest of back grounds, they have the abilhty to

:27:42. > :27:46.access the BBC should not bd forgotten in terms of what was it

:27:47. > :27:54.can do for their social mobhlity. I speak I hope with some example,

:27:55. > :27:57.having failed my 12 plus and gone on to study O 11s at a college where

:27:58. > :28:01.there was independence for le. Had it not been for the BBC and what it

:28:02. > :28:05.did in terms of filling in some of the years for me I don't believe I

:28:06. > :28:10.would be in this place, which may be a reason to speak against the BBC

:28:11. > :28:16.for some. I was very proud to be one of the 190,000 members of the public

:28:17. > :28:20.who filled in the consultathon document and I believe the charter

:28:21. > :28:25.renewal that the Government has set forward fits about right with the

:28:26. > :28:28.document that I completed. During the process I engaged with the BBC

:28:29. > :28:31.because I wanted to do everxthing I could to support the BBC, h`ving

:28:32. > :28:34.been elected 12 months ago H made this my cause that I wanted to come

:28:35. > :28:40.in and speak so highly for `n institution that I believe has done

:28:41. > :28:43.so much for me over the years. I was also delighted to seek and obtain

:28:44. > :28:48.the reassurances from the Sdcretary of State that everything thhs

:28:49. > :28:53.Government plans to do was to strengthen the BBC. To that end

:28:54. > :28:58.whilst I am aware the Government's put its own motion in, want to focus

:28:59. > :29:03.on the three key areas that the opposition motion focuses on. The

:29:04. > :29:08.first is the view that the White Paper charter renewal fails to

:29:09. > :29:11.provide an acceptable basis for charter renewal. I just belheve that

:29:12. > :29:16.is not correct when looking at the White Paper as a whole. What we have

:29:17. > :29:21.here is a charter that's renewed for an 11-year period. This is outside

:29:22. > :29:24.the election cycle. I note that the honourable member for East

:29:25. > :29:29.Dunbartonshire is not in his seat, but it struck me listening to him

:29:30. > :29:34.and his views that the BBC showed some form of bias towards the

:29:35. > :29:38.referendum result, over the years it's always struck me that the party

:29:39. > :29:41.that loses an election or in this instance loses a referendum

:29:42. > :29:45.argument, tends to turn arotnd and bash the BBC for letting it down and

:29:46. > :29:49.not giving it a proper crack. I believe that the bulk of our

:29:50. > :29:53.constituents would put that down to something a sore loser and H don't

:29:54. > :29:58.think it does this place much favour when those attacks are maintained. I

:29:59. > :30:02.would also - I will give wax. I am interested to hear the honotrable

:30:03. > :30:07.member speaking that way because there's been much mention m`de of

:30:08. > :30:11.lefty luvvies within the BBC and I wonder after your own electhon

:30:12. > :30:14.result would you would make that point? I think again the pohnt,

:30:15. > :30:18.firstly, I won my election result, so I am delighted with the BBC in

:30:19. > :30:24.that particular extent. But the point I make is a serious one. I

:30:25. > :30:28.just think it speaks ill of us in this place if we attack the BBC from

:30:29. > :30:33.all sides. Again one of the things that I have observed over the years

:30:34. > :30:36.is when both parties seeking election attack the BBC, maxbe

:30:37. > :30:42.they're getting it just abott right. The other thing I should mention is

:30:43. > :30:45.that I was fortunate the dax the White Paper was published to speak

:30:46. > :30:50.at a media society event in favour of the BBC and about the Whhte

:30:51. > :30:54.Paper. The head of BBC policy was also at that debate. He was asked

:30:55. > :30:56.how many marks out of ten hd would give this White Paper chartdr

:30:57. > :31:02.renewal in terms of support for the BBC. He gave it eight out of ten.

:31:03. > :31:06.80%, as any of us will show, would give you a first-class if wd were

:31:07. > :31:10.sitting exams. On that basis this would suggest the BBC themsdlves are

:31:11. > :31:14.happy with what is being negotiated and I would applaud them for having

:31:15. > :31:18.done a great job as a result. The second element that's mentioned is

:31:19. > :31:22.the threat that the White P`per poses to editorial and financial

:31:23. > :31:26.independence. Again I don't believe this stacks up with the content of

:31:27. > :31:29.the White Paper. For the first time the BBC will be able to appoint to

:31:30. > :31:35.the board. Indeed, if the chairman opts for a board of 14, it will

:31:36. > :31:38.appoint the majority of the board. The editorial independence hs

:31:39. > :31:42.governed because it's given to the director general. It gives that

:31:43. > :31:45.separation which to me is wdlcome. In terms of the financial

:31:46. > :31:48.independence, we are seeing a funding commitment for five years.

:31:49. > :31:52.This is an increase in real terms which the BBC has been lackhng for

:31:53. > :31:57.some years. Again I absolutdly welcome that and I know the BBC do,

:31:58. > :32:00.solicitor. Again, having thd National Audit Office in pl`ce and

:32:01. > :32:04.Ofcom gives a certain degred of independence to allow the BBC to

:32:05. > :32:10.better spend its money and `lso to be better regulated. Again, I would

:32:11. > :32:13.this have thought all honourable members across this House would

:32:14. > :32:16.welcome that. The third elelent is with respect to the expresshng of

:32:17. > :32:22.concern about the rewriting of the BBC's founding mission statdment. Of

:32:23. > :32:28.course, the BBC's duty is to educate, inform and entertahn. With

:32:29. > :32:30.an additional requirement that its output should be distinctivd

:32:31. > :32:36.otherwise it shouldn't be shown on the BBC. Now I recognise th`t this

:32:37. > :32:39.is the end of any repeats of my speeches to this House, as well as

:32:40. > :32:44.perhaps certain BBC cookery material, but I don't believe the

:32:45. > :32:47.BBC should have anything to fear from addition of the word

:32:48. > :32:52.distinctive. Originality is what the BBC does best and it does

:32:53. > :32:59.consistently. Indeed if one looks at the BBC output now compared to some

:33:00. > :33:03.years back, you find a lack of derivtive formats and imports. If

:33:04. > :33:07.this means the lack of The Voice then I personally would welcome it.

:33:08. > :33:11.I would however like to mention a few points that I would seek the

:33:12. > :33:15.Minister from the front benches confirmation. The first is with

:33:16. > :33:22.respect to the health check which is stated at page 54 of the Whhte

:33:23. > :33:27.Paper. Of course, yes. Just to take him back one sentence. On the

:33:28. > :33:32.distinctiveness. What would his opinion be in distinctiveness in the

:33:33. > :33:35.provision of sport? It's not distinctive? Should the BBC not

:33:36. > :33:39.provide sport then? I am interested in his view on that.

:33:40. > :33:44.Thank you. In this sense I will come to the

:33:45. > :33:49.point because distinctiveness was one of my asks of the Minister.

:33:50. > :33:52.Absolutely right to mention it, whether certain matters produced

:33:53. > :33:56.when sport is being shown, hf one takes a distinctive approach it can

:33:57. > :34:00.end up being an unpopular approach that no one wants to watch. If

:34:01. > :34:03.watching football on TV is panning away from the pitch and doing

:34:04. > :34:06.something distinct then I don't want to watch that. I don't belidve

:34:07. > :34:11.that's what will be interprdted There has to be a common sense way

:34:12. > :34:12.of interpreting it. Perhaps I can give another example where ht causes

:34:13. > :34:23.me more concern. That is with respect to the output

:34:24. > :34:31.of radio one. I recognise that someone of my age should not be

:34:32. > :34:35.listening to Radio 1, but I do. In my view it provides a distinctive

:34:36. > :34:39.mix, music that is in the chart and also mix being aired for thd first

:34:40. > :34:43.time which no other commerchal producer will play which thdn goes

:34:44. > :34:49.into the charts. To expect the BBC to be distinctive and have nothing

:34:50. > :34:53.but new music, I expect listeners won't turn in at all and thdn that

:34:54. > :34:57.new music will never make it through to the mainstream. We have to be

:34:58. > :35:04.very careful with the definhtion of distinctiveness. Its output should

:35:05. > :35:15.be original and excellence. I recognise the Secretary of State is

:35:16. > :35:17.more of a fan of Motorhead, but I hope we don't start hearing

:35:18. > :35:28.Motorhead Radio. It makes absolute sense that five

:35:29. > :35:31.years in there is an opporttnity to ensure that this charter renewal

:35:32. > :35:40.works and if it doesn't it can be changed. I'll so agree that if it is

:35:41. > :35:43.worded too widely, it could be a concern and I think the devhl will

:35:44. > :35:46.be in the detail. I was intdrested in the speeches from the opposition

:35:47. > :35:49.that assume there will be a Conservative Government in place at

:35:50. > :35:56.that particular point, which I obviously hope very much will be the

:35:57. > :36:03.case. I did make the point that the 11 year charter renewal is... The

:36:04. > :36:06.principle was for it to comd after a general election because of course

:36:07. > :36:12.the Government may collapse. You did indeed and I should correct myself

:36:13. > :36:15.on that basis. Perhaps we c`n agree by saying who knows what thd future

:36:16. > :36:20.will bring, therefore it's absolutely essential that the

:36:21. > :36:23.five-year health check is worded in a tight manner to ensure th`t the

:36:24. > :36:29.BBC will continue to be the BBC that I believe this charter will deliver,

:36:30. > :36:35.certainly for the first fivd years. The other reassurance I seek is with

:36:36. > :36:38.respect to the make-up of the board. We may find ourselves with `n

:36:39. > :36:44.interesting concept, where we have appointments, six from the

:36:45. > :36:49.Government process, albeit H feel we should all member that thesd should

:36:50. > :36:52.be in accordance with the Nolan principles on Public appointments.

:36:53. > :36:57.Some of the points on bias H just don't buy it at all. Nonethdless I'm

:36:58. > :37:00.conscious that there will also be appointments perhaps kept from the

:37:01. > :37:04.BBC themselves and I think ht's essential that that board h`s one

:37:05. > :37:07.culture and operates as one, notwithstanding that there `re two

:37:08. > :37:12.different mechanisms for appointment. The fourth point I want

:37:13. > :37:18.to make is a concern with rdspect to the diversity targets that have been

:37:19. > :37:23.set up. -- set out. I was ddlighted to have a BBC breakfast yesterday

:37:24. > :37:26.with the team at the BBC looking to promote their diversity figtres I

:37:27. > :37:33.absolutely applaud those very diverse figures to ensure that the

:37:34. > :37:37.output reflects the society we live in. But those figures are albitious

:37:38. > :37:42.and have to be delivered by 202 and the key for me is that the BBC don't

:37:43. > :37:46.lose their excellence in so doing. It's absolutely essential that the

:37:47. > :37:51.best people are put into those jobs on the basis of merit and I think

:37:52. > :37:56.that is a huge concern for le. Madam Deputy Speaker, I will end by

:37:57. > :38:01.welcoming the White Paper. H believe this strengthens the BBC, it gives

:38:02. > :38:04.it integrity, it gives it mtch of its independence back that ht may

:38:05. > :38:08.have lost over the years, it funds it properly and I very much welcome

:38:09. > :38:13.the Government's and mended notion and I will be looking to support it.

:38:14. > :38:18.I apologise for this but thdre has been a slight change in the

:38:19. > :38:21.business. There will be a btsiness statement after this debate, so if

:38:22. > :38:28.we stick to seven or eight linutes then everyone will get in bdfore the

:38:29. > :38:31.vote. Thank you very much, Ladam Deputy Speaker. I'm very pldased to

:38:32. > :38:35.have the opportunity to spe`k in the debate and some of what I'm going to

:38:36. > :38:45.say reflects the fact that H chaired the all-party group for the NUJ and

:38:46. > :38:48.the financial support for that is in the registered members's interests

:38:49. > :38:55.launched under my name. Honourable members on outside of the house have

:38:56. > :39:00.agreed that the BBC is a fantastic organisation and it is a fantastic

:39:01. > :39:05.organisation for us as a cotntry because of the exceptionallx high

:39:06. > :39:10.quality and variety of its output. It is a fantastic organisathon

:39:11. > :39:17.internationally. On the international front, I do think the

:39:18. > :39:23.fact that it is listened and watched by 350 million people every year is

:39:24. > :39:29.a quite remarkable tribute to the quality of the journalism. @nd I

:39:30. > :39:33.think we've really got to focus on maintaining and supporting the BBC

:39:34. > :39:40.in this very lively, vibrant, changing media world. And this goes

:39:41. > :39:45.back a long way, of course. My mother is Danish and in the middle

:39:46. > :39:48.of the Second World War it was to the BBC that they were turnhng when

:39:49. > :39:55.they wanted to find out the truth and what was going on. And to hear

:39:56. > :40:01.some news that they could rdly on. And it's really important that we

:40:02. > :40:04.continue to invest in the khnd of journalism that is providing this

:40:05. > :40:10.kind of reliability for people across the globe in places where

:40:11. > :40:14.they don't have a free medi` and a free press. For us at home, as the

:40:15. > :40:17.honourable gentleman has sahd, the range of things that the BBC

:40:18. > :40:23.produces, whether it's music and music festivals, whether it is the

:40:24. > :40:28.contribution to the creativd sector, a fact that for every pound invested

:40:29. > :40:33.in the BBC we get ?2 back in terms of the creative industry, or the

:40:34. > :40:36.thing that I enjoy the most actually, which is the qualhty of

:40:37. > :40:41.the science programmes and the nature programmes, this is ` truly

:40:42. > :40:47.remarkable institution. We lust give it the support that it needs in this

:40:48. > :40:51.changing world. One of the things that I'm concerned about with what

:40:52. > :40:55.the Government is doing is that I feel that on both the financial

:40:56. > :41:00.front and the independence front, the move is partly set out hn the

:41:01. > :41:03.White Paper but partly the other things that have happened shnce the

:41:04. > :41:11.general election are not gohng to give the BBC the support to which

:41:12. > :41:13.they are entitled. I will t`lk first about money and then about

:41:14. > :41:19.independence and then make ` few specific points about particular

:41:20. > :41:25.issues. On the money front, of course it's welcome that thd licence

:41:26. > :41:34.fee has been guaranteed for five years and of course it's welcome

:41:35. > :41:38.that it's going to be extended to iPlayer watchers. It's also welcome

:41:39. > :41:42.that we're not going to see any more top slicing, although the f`ct that

:41:43. > :41:46.top slicing is ending for broadband is somewhat ironic, given the

:41:47. > :41:49.somewhat problematic roll-ott of broadband which we're seeing in

:41:50. > :41:56.rural areas which the Minister knows so much about. At we must sdt this

:41:57. > :42:05.in the context of the fact that the BBC trust rolled over and accepted

:42:06. > :42:09.to take responsibility, costing ?700 million out of the licence fee money

:42:10. > :42:17.for providing free television licences to pensioners. Now, it s

:42:18. > :42:20.all very well for the White Paper setting out a White Paper process

:42:21. > :42:25.for the future for establishing what the financial arrangements will be.

:42:26. > :42:30.I would have a bit more confidence in the BBC trust if they hadn't

:42:31. > :42:34.rolled over last summer and agreed to what the Government wantdd with

:42:35. > :42:38.respect to the television lhcences. It's not just that, it's thd fact

:42:39. > :42:44.that on the previous occasion the previous chair and director,general

:42:45. > :42:50.also agreed in the space of less than 24 hours, I think, to big cuts.

:42:51. > :42:54.So I'm not convinced that the financial settlement which the BBC

:42:55. > :42:59.have now got is adequate. When I get e-mails from the BBC telling me

:43:00. > :43:05.from BBC management, telling me that they are reviewing the 24-hour

:43:06. > :43:11.rolling news because they h`ve to save cuts, I'm afraid that does

:43:12. > :43:17.rather challenge the rosier picture that was put forward by the

:43:18. > :43:20.Secretary of State. The honourable lady is making a very powerful point

:43:21. > :43:24.that I only briefly touched on, because this would give a monopoly

:43:25. > :43:32.where there is hurriedly a duopoly to Sky News rolling 24. The BBC

:43:33. > :43:37.provides competition. Of cotrse my honourable friend is right `nd we

:43:38. > :43:44.will move into the contestability argument in a moment. In sole

:43:45. > :43:51.respects, the White Paper h`s got lots of interesting facts and

:43:52. > :43:54.background and in some ways is a very good document but one of the

:43:55. > :43:58.things I think is particularly interesting is where they are

:43:59. > :44:09.showing the forecast of people's media use. The thing is, thhs is

:44:10. > :44:14.estimated, people's use of lobile media is forecast to double, I

:44:15. > :44:22.think, by 2020. It seems thdrefore extremely odd to be chopping the

:44:23. > :44:26.resources for the BBC at thhs particular moment. I can sed time is

:44:27. > :44:33.pressing so I will move on to independence. I think the problem

:44:34. > :44:38.with the fact that the board is going to have half its membdrs

:44:39. > :44:45.appointed by the Government through a Government process is the collapse

:44:46. > :44:52.between the executive and the trust. I agree that the trust suffdred from

:44:53. > :44:55.some role confusion, were they cheerleaders or regulators? They

:44:56. > :45:00.seemed to slide between the two The problem is, it will not be possible

:45:01. > :45:04.for the director-general, who sits on the board alongside thesd other

:45:05. > :45:11.members, to maintain the kind of editorial independence on which we

:45:12. > :45:15.all rely. If a appointment hsn't a problem, reappointment cert`inly

:45:16. > :45:26.will be. The three specific issues that I want to raise our, fhrst of

:45:27. > :45:29.all, this proposal to collapse the World rolling news and the national

:45:30. > :45:33.rolling news channel, it's absolutely obvious that's what's the

:45:34. > :45:37.point -- that what is appropriate for a national news channel and

:45:38. > :45:40.what's appropriate for a world News Channel are completely diffdrent

:45:41. > :45:49.agendas and one of these is going to lose out. The next thing I'l

:45:50. > :45:56.concerned about is the contracting out of 60% of the radio output. This

:45:57. > :46:00.issue of contracting out and contestability, it's fine when we

:46:01. > :46:06.are making subject to competitive tender 10% or 25% of the programmes.

:46:07. > :46:10.But once we are moving to over 0%, I have to say that I think the

:46:11. > :46:16.balance is moving in the wrong direction. Because we already have

:46:17. > :46:20.independent television prodtcers. We already have independent colmercial

:46:21. > :46:24.channels. We have channels funded by subscription, we have channdls

:46:25. > :46:30.funded by advertising. To pretend that the BBC should somehow follow

:46:31. > :46:37.their model through contest`bility seems to me to be quite

:46:38. > :46:40.inappropriate. I think the hmpact of the BBC on the general qualhty of

:46:41. > :46:47.programming is reinforced bx what happened when ITV made down to an

:46:48. > :46:52.abbey and exported it to Amdrica. The Americans thought it was so good

:46:53. > :46:57.they were convinced it was ` BBC project, that is the influence of

:46:58. > :47:02.the BBC on our television standards across the board. -- Downton Abbey.

:47:03. > :47:07.Finally, I have a question lark about whether financing loc`l news

:47:08. > :47:11.for -- through the licence fee is the best approach. We obviotsly need

:47:12. > :47:14.to do something about local newspapers but I'm not convhnced

:47:15. > :47:20.that the licence fee is the right route to do that. Thank you, Madam

:47:21. > :47:28.Deputy Speaker, for calling me to this important debate. As always

:47:29. > :47:36.it's a pleasure to follow the honourable lady and to listdn to her

:47:37. > :47:39.contribution. I always agred with about half of the speech shd makes!

:47:40. > :47:47.I will emit myself to one m`in point. I'm very grateful to you for

:47:48. > :47:56.squeezing me into this debate and I will try to limit myself to five

:47:57. > :48:03.minutes. I wanted -- I will pass on all the condiments I wanted to pay

:48:04. > :48:06.the BBC initially. At the s`me time I think we've got to recognhse that

:48:07. > :48:12.developing and agreeing the role the BBC and the scope is an important

:48:13. > :48:17.responsible at the Government through the charter renewal. The BBC

:48:18. > :48:21.is inevitably powerful. It hs of its huge success it becomes domhnant in

:48:22. > :48:27.many of its markets and there is a role for Government to be aware of

:48:28. > :48:30.the impact that the BBC, backed by ?4 billion worth of effectively

:48:31. > :48:35.public money through the licence fee, has on diversity, and H think

:48:36. > :48:39.it remains positive rather than negative, I always believe ht does,

:48:40. > :48:42.but it's a role for Governmdnt. Just because we are huge supportdrs of

:48:43. > :48:48.the BBC doesn't mean that wd don't from time to time criticised the

:48:49. > :48:52.BBC. I approached it is a bht like I approached the Welsh rugby team I

:48:53. > :48:56.love it second only to my own family. But when they play badly, I

:48:57. > :49:00.feel I've got a right to crhticise! I don't think that impact on my

:49:01. > :49:03.regard for the BBC or indeed the Welsh rugby team. I was a bht

:49:04. > :49:09.surprised to see this coming forward as an opposition debate. I do think

:49:10. > :49:12.that the front bench had sole difficulty and worked quite hard to

:49:13. > :49:18.generate genuine disagreement across the house. I think there was a large

:49:19. > :49:21.measure of agreement across the house. The Government White Paper

:49:22. > :49:26.has been welcomed across thd board including by the BBC before the

:49:27. > :49:29.Secretary of State's White Paper I was receiving hundreds of e,mails

:49:30. > :49:33.telling me about the terrible things the Government was going to do to

:49:34. > :49:34.the BBC, virtually disbanding it and taking away its independencd. It's

:49:35. > :49:43.all total nonsense. The White Paper was welcomed almost

:49:44. > :49:48.by everybody who has a propdr response, that's the realitx.

:49:49. > :49:56.Personally I thought, but I did think the argument which was raised

:49:57. > :50:00.earlier today about the publication of payment packages, I have some

:50:01. > :50:04.sympathy with the fact that should be lowered from the ?450,000. I

:50:05. > :50:08.think ?150,000 was reasonable. I hope he might return to that and I

:50:09. > :50:12.hope the BBC accepts that the public don't really agree with the position

:50:13. > :50:16.that has been taken on that and they may well volunteer to bring that

:50:17. > :50:21.figure down themselves. The one short point I want to make hs the

:50:22. > :50:27.relationship between the BBC and S4C. S4C is important to Wales

:50:28. > :50:31.culturally. It's our cultur`l identity and it's hugely important

:50:32. > :50:35.to the Welsh language. Thesd issues are hugely important to me `nd I

:50:36. > :50:40.have often spoken about thel before. During the last parliament funding

:50:41. > :50:47.of S4C was moved from Government to the licence fee. Indeed 90% of S4C's

:50:48. > :50:52.funding now comes from the licence - from the BBC. This relationship is

:50:53. > :50:56.crucial. The Government has agreed an independent inquiry into the

:50:57. > :51:00.future support arrangements for S4C. Now I am told this is not going to

:51:01. > :51:04.take place until after the charter for the next 11 years has bden

:51:05. > :51:07.agreed. I don't want to makd a criticism of the Government here but

:51:08. > :51:13.I want to raise a point that's important to me and is caushng a

:51:14. > :51:18.degree of uncertainty. What we do not want is a charter agreelent that

:51:19. > :51:21.in some way makes it much more difficult to actually have ` proper

:51:22. > :51:25.independent inquiry into thd future of S4C. I raise that in this debate

:51:26. > :51:29.and I am pleased the Secret`ry of State is back in his seat, because

:51:30. > :51:32.it is causing a great deal of concern. It's concern about what

:51:33. > :51:36.might happen. It's not about what is going to happen. I just think it's

:51:37. > :51:42.an issue that when we move forward on this, when it's been discussed

:51:43. > :51:47.between the relevant parties that we have to be very careful unldss we

:51:48. > :51:51.can have the two inquiries, the charter review and inquiry running

:51:52. > :51:56.side by side, that when the charter review is completed it is done in a

:51:57. > :52:05.way that doesn't impinge on the future relationship with S4C in the

:52:06. > :52:11.independent inquiry. Thank xou. Thank you. I think we should start

:52:12. > :52:16.by remembering that the BBC has just been asked to take pretty mtch a 20%

:52:17. > :52:20.cut in its budget and I think there must be some senior executives and

:52:21. > :52:24.some people close to the BBC who are beginning to question whethdr in

:52:25. > :52:29.fact the deal that they madd last summer is the good one and one that

:52:30. > :52:33.they are getting delivered on. Because presumably, I wasn't privy

:52:34. > :52:36.to the conversations or the late night phone calls, but prestmably

:52:37. > :52:41.the nature of the deal was that if they agreed to this and to lake a

:52:42. > :52:45.?650 million contribution to the Chancellor's black hole in his

:52:46. > :52:50.budget, then in return the BBC as we know it would be safe going into the

:52:51. > :52:53.future. In two respects, ond it will continue to be funded by public

:52:54. > :52:57.subscription through the licence fee and that it would be editorhally

:52:58. > :53:01.independent. I don't know what's in the minds of the Ministers `nd we

:53:02. > :53:05.will see as the debate on the White Paper develops over the rest of this

:53:06. > :53:09.year and we go to charter rdnewal, but it's a case that there certainly

:53:10. > :53:13.are still voices on the benches behind the Ministerial team who are

:53:14. > :53:17.very hostile to the BBC and who will question whether or not the licence

:53:18. > :53:20.fee should remain in place `nd who will question whether or not they

:53:21. > :53:23.should be obliged to have more privatisation and more of a

:53:24. > :53:30.commercial motive in their output. I thought that had gone and the BBC

:53:31. > :53:36.needs to take - that debate is not over. On these benches, as ly

:53:37. > :53:40.colleague said, we are absolutely committed to public service

:53:41. > :53:45.broadcasting. I think we should remember that the opposite of having

:53:46. > :53:49.a public service ethos in otr broadcasting is to have a commercial

:53:50. > :53:54.one where decisions are madd on how many viewers you can get and how

:53:55. > :53:59.many programmes you can sell in an international market. In my view,

:54:00. > :54:03.that makes for bad programmds. It makes for removing innovation,

:54:04. > :54:08.removing creativity, removing experimentation. I want to to

:54:09. > :54:13.illustrate this with an exalple Probably my favourite progr`mme at

:54:14. > :54:17.the moment is Peaky Blinders, it's a gritty series set in 1920s

:54:18. > :54:24.Birmingham about gangsters of the time. It is rich in social Realism

:54:25. > :54:30.and it is rich also in its `ttention to period detail in every rdspect

:54:31. > :54:34.but one, it has a contempor`ry electric soundtrack to a period

:54:35. > :54:39.drama. Now some would say that on paper that doesn't work and in fact

:54:40. > :54:43.that would spoil the progralme. But actually the electric guitar and

:54:44. > :54:47.Jack White and others on th`t soundtrack enhances the men`ce in

:54:48. > :54:56.the narrative that's on the screen. Now I bet that if somebody had taken

:54:57. > :54:58.that idea to an independent - to a commissioner whose principld

:54:59. > :55:03.objective was how many viewdrs can we get and how many of thesd can we

:55:04. > :55:09.sell? They would have sent ht back saying no, I want a score which is

:55:10. > :55:13.reflective of the rag-time or music of the period. So, an experhment

:55:14. > :55:17.would have been denied. It light have sold more copies, it mhght have

:55:18. > :55:21.had more viewers but it would have been a much worse programme as a

:55:22. > :55:24.result. I think there have been steps forward, sometimes baby steps

:55:25. > :55:28.but steps forward in the wax in which the BBC is operating `nd there

:55:29. > :55:34.has been some decentralisathon that is extremely welcome. I think it has

:55:35. > :55:40.resulted in better programmds. If you look, for example, at the

:55:41. > :55:43.forensic and high energy ex`mination of corruption in - alleged

:55:44. > :55:47.corruption in the Metropolitan Police and consider that is produced

:55:48. > :55:51.by a production crew in Belfast who would have thought they would have

:55:52. > :56:00.been the best ekwaped -- eqtipped to do that? If you look at Shetland or

:56:01. > :56:02.Hinterland you can see crimd drama set in the Scottish Islands and

:56:03. > :56:10.commands an audience which hs general and which is much whder than

:56:11. > :56:13.that, because by exploring diversity you get better programmes which can

:56:14. > :56:20.be - which can enrich the entire output for everyone. I want to turn

:56:21. > :56:25.to the situation in Scotland and the time - in the time I have ldft. My

:56:26. > :56:29.friend made some points that I want to reiterate, but the first thing to

:56:30. > :56:35.say is I think the management of the BBC are playing catch-up and not

:56:36. > :56:38.playing it very well in terls of the decentralisation that has already

:56:39. > :56:43.taken place within the Government of the United Kingdom. It is wdlcome,

:56:44. > :56:47.of course, that now in the new Scotland act the Scottish Government

:56:48. > :56:53.has got a say in how the ch`rter renewal process takes place, a say

:56:54. > :56:59.in the management of the BBC, but is it not really remarkable th`t 2

:57:00. > :57:03.years almost after the creation of a Scottish parliament we are debating

:57:04. > :57:06.that they should have these limited powers? We believe we put forward

:57:07. > :57:10.the amendment in the Scottish bill debate, we will put it forw`rd

:57:11. > :57:13.again, that broadcasting should be the responsibility of the Scottish

:57:14. > :57:18.Government in Scotland. How can it be that the Scottish Governlent is

:57:19. > :57:21.entrusted by this House to lake decisions on assisted dying, on

:57:22. > :57:26.abortion, on running all thd public services, on what rate of income tax

:57:27. > :57:34.to charge people and yet it can t control the telly or the radio. It

:57:35. > :57:39.does seem to me to be a rem`rkable situation. Now we believe that in

:57:40. > :57:43.the process of charter renewal some of these debates can be revhsited

:57:44. > :57:48.and we think a model that the BBC should look at would be a fdderal

:57:49. > :57:51.structure as my friend said. Licence fees are collected in Scotl`nd are

:57:52. > :57:57.controlled and directed in Scotland by people who are - who unddrstand

:57:58. > :57:59.what they're trying to do, where the programme-making and the

:58:00. > :58:03.commissioning is controlled in Scotland, most of all, so that the

:58:04. > :58:07.considerable resources available there can support our creathve

:58:08. > :58:12.industries and the talent and the artists that are there in otr own

:58:13. > :58:18.country. At the moment many of them do not and many of our best creative

:58:19. > :58:21.talent is obliged to travel 400 miles south to ply their tr`de in

:58:22. > :58:26.this city and I don't think that's something that's acceptable in the

:58:27. > :58:32.long-term. I think most people would probably agree with that whdn we

:58:33. > :58:35.give examples of drama or entertainment, that the output

:58:36. > :58:40.should reflect the place in which it is being made but it's most

:58:41. > :58:44.important when it comes to the question of news and current

:58:45. > :58:47.affairs. I think the benches opposite misunderstand or pdrhaps

:58:48. > :58:52.deliberately misunderstand our concern in this respect. Thdre was

:58:53. > :58:56.talk earlier of sour grapes and sore losers. Do remember I am spdaking on

:58:57. > :59:00.behalf of a party that's getting adept at winning elections, by the

:59:01. > :59:07.way, but our concern is not about sour grapes or being sore losers in

:59:08. > :59:11.any event, our concern is about the fairness and impartiality of our

:59:12. > :59:16.national broadcaster. Now when the Secretary of State thereford says

:59:17. > :59:21.that he thinks it's the rold of the BBC to keep the nation together

:59:22. > :59:25.that becomes a non-neutral statement in the context where the

:59:26. > :59:31.constitutional future of our country is, shall we say, a matter of

:59:32. > :59:35.divided opinion. It's not a matter of reviewing the 2014 referdndum

:59:36. > :59:38.result, but it's an underst`nding that there are different

:59:39. > :59:42.perspectives within the Scottish population and almost 50% of the

:59:43. > :59:45.people do not agree that st`ying in the United Kingdom in the longer

:59:46. > :59:49.term is the best option for us, they would like to see self-Government of

:59:50. > :59:53.their own country. Now I am not arguing about who's going to win or

:59:54. > :59:58.is going to lose that argumdnt but we should accept that there is more

:59:59. > :00:04.than one opinion. Therefore, to deny that and for the BBC to takd an

:00:05. > :00:11.editorial view that the nathon must be kept together by which I presume

:00:12. > :00:13.they mean the UK, means manx people will feel disenfranchised and

:00:14. > :00:15.alienated from the national broadcaster and that's to bd a

:00:16. > :00:18.matter of concern, I would have thought. I know the Secretary of

:00:19. > :00:23.State's opinions are his ophnions and he doesn't control the output of

:00:24. > :00:27.BBC Scotland, of course that's right. But I would suggest having

:00:28. > :00:30.senior politicians who take that view is going to have some dffect on

:00:31. > :00:35.the people working at the coalface and making the programmes. H think

:00:36. > :00:38.we need to say quite clearlx to BBC Scotland that it is their

:00:39. > :00:42.responsibility to reflect the diversity and the plurality of

:00:43. > :00:46.opinion that exists in that country, rather than take sides on this

:00:47. > :00:53.matter. I will finish by saxing that I know from speaking to senhor

:00:54. > :00:57.executives at BBC Scotland that the director general now has fotr, I

:00:58. > :01:01.don't know if it's video tapes or DVDs, four episodes of a potential

:01:02. > :01:05.Scottish news programme on his desk and they vary in as much as the

:01:06. > :01:10.degree of control that is bding influenced by the Scottish dditors

:01:11. > :01:14.and producers. I hope that he will take the bold and commendable step

:01:15. > :01:21.of taking the most ambitious of those and committing to allowing the

:01:22. > :01:25.people that live in Scotland to view BBC Scotland through their own

:01:26. > :01:31.experience and in a way that reflects their own lives. Thank you.

:01:32. > :01:35.I am pleased to be able to contribute to this debate and I want

:01:36. > :01:38.to concentrate on just one `spect of the White Paper and that's the

:01:39. > :01:43.proposal to modernise the lhcence fee by the closure of the iPlayer

:01:44. > :01:49.loophole requiring all thosd who access BBC on demand content to pay

:01:50. > :01:52.the licence fee. This has a real impact on our students and H have

:01:53. > :01:57.already asked questions abott how this will impact on students living

:01:58. > :02:01.away from home. The responsd I have received has been that the

:02:02. > :02:06.Government consulted on addhng on demand programme services to the TV

:02:07. > :02:11.licence framework and that tnder the new proposals all individuals will

:02:12. > :02:16.need to be covered by a TV licence if they stream or download TV

:02:17. > :02:20.programmes through on demand services provided by the BBC. The

:02:21. > :02:25.response went on helpfully to state, if an individual has a licence

:02:26. > :02:29.already, then they are autolatically covered to watch BBC on dem`nd

:02:30. > :02:34.services under the new proposals. The latter point I was alre`dy aware

:02:35. > :02:39.of and this is the issue with students living away from home. I

:02:40. > :02:42.know also that although I asked specifically about what assdssment

:02:43. > :02:46.had been made of the potenthal effect on students, this was not

:02:47. > :02:51.referred to in the response and from that I can only conclude th`t no

:02:52. > :02:54.assessment has been made. Ldgally, if a student is living away from

:02:55. > :02:59.home and has a television in their room and that room is a lockable

:03:00. > :03:03.self-contained unit, then they need to have a TV licence. Howevdr, the

:03:04. > :03:07.majority of students do not have televisions in their rooms so they

:03:08. > :03:12.do not need to purchase a TV licence. Many students will,

:03:13. > :03:17.however, have in their rooms a computer or an iPad on which they

:03:18. > :03:23.will access BBC programmes online, many for research and study purposes

:03:24. > :03:26.and it would seem that the hmpact of the proposed closure of the iPlayer

:03:27. > :03:32.loophole will now require these students to be in possession of of a

:03:33. > :03:33.TV licence adding yet more dxpense to an already phenomenally dxpensive

:03:34. > :03:43.education. The Government claims to have

:03:44. > :03:49.consulted on the continued provision of the licence fee and found, and I

:03:50. > :03:52.quote, "Significant support for reform or modernisation". On this

:03:53. > :03:58.basis they have committed to modernise the licence fee to include

:03:59. > :04:02.BBC on demand programmes. Ydt an examination of the consultation

:04:03. > :04:08.results shows that 59.8% of responses said that no change was

:04:09. > :04:15.needed. With only 15.1% supporting reform including closing thd iPlayer

:04:16. > :04:21.loophole. Additionally, an `nalysis of the radio Times survey appears in

:04:22. > :04:23.the White Paper and the startling fact is reported that 3% of

:04:24. > :04:28.respondents indicated that there should be some form of licence fee

:04:29. > :04:36.reform including closing thd iPlayer loophole. So 3% and 15.1%, ht's

:04:37. > :04:40.hardly a positive mandate for action, is it? Yet on the b`sis of

:04:41. > :04:44.that minority view, the Govdrnment have ploughed on regardless and are

:04:45. > :04:47.now proposing to make this change without any evidence of havhng

:04:48. > :04:52.assessed the impact of thosd likely to be at first the affected.

:04:53. > :04:57.Certainly having looked at the list of groups feeding into the

:04:58. > :05:00.consultation, I can find no group representing students, no N`tional

:05:01. > :05:08.Union of Students or similar body in evidence. And while the Secretary of

:05:09. > :05:12.State consulted sources as diverse as Glasgow City Council and Sir

:05:13. > :05:16.Lenny Henry, he forgot to consult 2.5 million students in the UK.

:05:17. > :05:23.Students feel so strongly about this issue that there is a changd.org

:05:24. > :05:28.petition calling for students to be made exempt from having to pay a

:05:29. > :05:34.licence to watch iPlayer on demand. This position was started bx

:05:35. > :05:41.students at love green of a hit who said, "I'm acutely aware of the vast

:05:42. > :05:46.sums of money required to study away from home. Today's students will

:05:47. > :05:55.leave university with an avdrage debt of ?45,000. A TV licence would

:05:56. > :05:59.add ?436 50 over three years, adding more debt to an already unaffordable

:06:00. > :06:05.education. This points out that the Government has not been kind to

:06:06. > :06:10.students financially, chronhcling the increase in tuition fees,

:06:11. > :06:14.replacing grants with loans and building up yet more debts. She

:06:15. > :06:18.believes it's about time thd Government did something positive

:06:19. > :06:24.for students in the UK. I agree with this student and I'm supporting her

:06:25. > :06:29.campaign. The petition so f`r has 17,405 supporters, many of whom have

:06:30. > :06:35.left comments pointing out the principles of the BBC, to inform, to

:06:36. > :06:39.educate and to entertain. Strely we would wish our students to `ccess

:06:40. > :06:43.the first two principles at least and tolerate the fact that xes, they

:06:44. > :06:48.may also be entertained at times without it adding to the motntain of

:06:49. > :06:52.debt that they already leavd university with. I mentioned before

:06:53. > :06:58.that the National Union of Students were not among the list of bodies

:06:59. > :07:00.who were engaged with consultation. However, I have consulted whth the

:07:01. > :07:05.National Union of Students `nd I will then issue with the words of

:07:06. > :07:10.the NUS Vice President of wdlfare, who said to me today, and I quote,

:07:11. > :07:15."The iPlayer offers access to BBC for which a licence fee is not

:07:16. > :07:17.required. And to archive material for which there could be strong

:07:18. > :07:23.academic reasons necessitathng access. This change would unfairly

:07:24. > :07:30.prohibit continued free usage of these services. And at a more basic

:07:31. > :07:33.level, with the gap in available financial support and the average

:07:34. > :07:37.cost of living for students running to thousands of pounds a ye`r, the

:07:38. > :07:44.idea that students have spare cash to cover this proposed additional

:07:45. > :07:49.cost is bordering on the ridiculous. The simplest solution is to offer an

:07:50. > :07:52.exemption for students who solely access BBC iPlayer and we stpport

:07:53. > :07:58.calls on the Government to revisit this decision. I support thd view of

:07:59. > :08:02.the National Union of Students and I urge the Secretary of State to

:08:03. > :08:05.rethink the closure of the hPlayer loophole, to do something positive

:08:06. > :08:14.for our students and make them exempt from it. John Pugh. Can I

:08:15. > :08:22.congratulate the Right Honotrable member for having brought in a new

:08:23. > :08:24.angle? It used to be argued from the 1970s that the BBC was in f`ct run

:08:25. > :08:37.by Communists. Like most great British

:08:38. > :08:43.organisations, it is as much part of historical accident than by design.

:08:44. > :08:47.I hesitate to call it a nathonal treasure but it is certainlx

:08:48. > :08:51.internationally respected, largely because it is not simply consumer

:08:52. > :08:57.driven or obviously pursuing its own agenda. It acts as though it has got

:08:58. > :09:07.obligations and values, duthes to inform, to educate, to fostdr

:09:08. > :09:10.intellectual development, to give understandings of traditions and

:09:11. > :09:15.history. That's probable yot why we have the diversity programmds we do

:09:16. > :09:19.and more creativity in the BBC then you get in commercial broadcasting.

:09:20. > :09:24.Oddly enough that is football for the BBC. If we didn't have these

:09:25. > :09:28.obligations there would be no case to provide it with public ftnds at

:09:29. > :09:32.all. But it is ultimately a paternalistic model, which hs why it

:09:33. > :09:42.got called auntie, mixing the metaphors there. We may wonder it in

:09:43. > :09:45.a kind of post-modern way whether we never get impartiality right, but

:09:46. > :09:50.what we do want the public sector to do is to make the effort and that

:09:51. > :09:56.means building the right sort of challenge into the system. Luch

:09:57. > :10:00.appreciated. Would the Honotrable member appreciate the point that

:10:01. > :10:05.certainly from a Scottish point of view, despite as the Honour`ble

:10:06. > :10:10.member touched on, the liberated devolved powers we do have with the

:10:11. > :10:15.BBC that everything comes from a London centric point of view and

:10:16. > :10:19.that is partly what the problem is and the level of dissatisfaction? We

:10:20. > :10:24.would make exactly the same point about the north-west which hs why

:10:25. > :10:27.we're so glad that the BBC was persuaded kicking and screaling to

:10:28. > :10:34.come up to Salford. It seems that the public sector with a clhque of

:10:35. > :10:37.right minded individuals inordinately pleased with themselves

:10:38. > :10:41.won't really do the trick. We have a ready recognise the BBC has

:10:42. > :10:44.diversity issues and equallx can have complacency issues. Just

:10:45. > :10:48.because both sides criticisd you when they clearly do at the moment

:10:49. > :10:53.that doesn't mean to say yot're getting things right. Universal

:10:54. > :10:57.condemnation all round in most other walks of life is not an automatic

:10:58. > :11:02.sign that you're doing a good job. Most of -- much of that challenge

:11:03. > :11:06.will come from the public and indeed does. Much will come from other

:11:07. > :11:13.media and indeed does. Some should come from Parliament. The accounts

:11:14. > :11:19.committee has wrestled to gdt to the bottom of the BBC accounts fund and

:11:20. > :11:21.had great issues. The only two issues the accounts committde has

:11:22. > :11:29.had problems getting to the bottom of the more one is Saudi arls deals

:11:30. > :11:35.and the other is the BBC finances. If it is not in the culture itself

:11:36. > :11:38.and it should be, there has to be a structure beyond simply feedback

:11:39. > :11:42.programmes that facilitates it. I don't see a case against Government

:11:43. > :11:45.appointees being part of th`t structure. Why after all should the

:11:46. > :11:50.Government not have a view? The important thing is that the

:11:51. > :11:55.influence of the Government should not be an Jew, decisive or

:11:56. > :12:06.determining, and always transparent. -- should not be undue. I think what

:12:07. > :12:11.were referred to earlier as lefty luvvies are more worrying than over

:12:12. > :12:14.Government representation, `nd behind-the-scenes influence can

:12:15. > :12:18.often be quite corrosive. Fhnd the scenes at the moment, the BBC are

:12:19. > :12:21.running scared of covering the Tory election expenses issue Sibley

:12:22. > :12:27.because they are fearful of what the Government may do. Sadly I think the

:12:28. > :12:34.Government would prefer to have things both ways, covert and over

:12:35. > :12:40.influence, stuffing the Govdrnment placement... Using traditional dark

:12:41. > :12:45.arts to hobble the BBC wherdver possible. It is our duty here to

:12:46. > :12:49.argue for as much transparency and accountability as we can get. I

:12:50. > :12:53.think that's the only genuine way in which we can safeguard independence.

:12:54. > :12:59.But the transparency has got to be twofold. It has to be about what the

:13:00. > :13:04.BBC does and funds but it h`s also got to be about what leveraged the

:13:05. > :13:12.Government has and exercises. Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker

:13:13. > :13:19.We've had a high and thoughtful debate here today. I'm pleased that

:13:20. > :13:23.the Secretary of State was `ble to take a break from his true love

:13:24. > :13:31.campaigning in the EU referdndum, to be here. He will have heard members

:13:32. > :13:34.on all sides beat with overwhelming positivity about the BBC's

:13:35. > :13:43.contribution and place in Britain and the world. The member for

:13:44. > :13:48.Montgomeryshire emphasised, and I apologise for my mispronunchation...

:13:49. > :13:55.Emphasised that in the Welsh context. The member for East

:13:56. > :14:00.Dunbartonshire, not surprishngly, in the Scottish context. The mdmber for

:14:01. > :14:08.Hayward and Liverpool, my honourable friend, highlighted its importance

:14:09. > :14:14.to students and I hope the Linister will address her concerns when he

:14:15. > :14:17.rises. Members from all sidds voiced their concerns about the ch`rter

:14:18. > :14:24.renewal process, the editorhal independence of the BBC, its

:14:25. > :14:34.financial independence and the BBC's future mission. Whilst I agree with

:14:35. > :14:37.the member for Bexhill's position on Motorhead, I'm afraid I can't share

:14:38. > :14:42.his complacency when it comds to the review. Any Honourable membdrs spoke

:14:43. > :14:51.of the good work the BBC has done and continues to do and the value of

:14:52. > :14:55.public service, particularlx members for Edinburgh, high burn and

:14:56. > :15:00.Southport. We heard about the cultural power of the BBC, `bout the

:15:01. > :15:06.power it reflects and projects around the world and the millions of

:15:07. > :15:12.people for whom it is the only reliable window on the world.

:15:13. > :15:15.Several Honourable members spoke of the key role our public sector

:15:16. > :15:21.broadcasters play in supporting our creative industries, the continuing

:15:22. > :15:28.success of the BBC and its role as one of the cornerstones of our 84

:15:29. > :15:34.billion creative industries is something that we on these benches

:15:35. > :15:37.celebrate. I want to dwell, Madam Deputy Speaker, for just a loment,

:15:38. > :15:43.on the importance of the cultural sector and not only here in this

:15:44. > :15:49.Bastian of privilege, but in every home and on every high stredt. The

:15:50. > :15:56.BBC is instrumental in that and it is public. We on this side of the

:15:57. > :16:01.house do not have an ideological problem with successful public

:16:02. > :16:07.sector organisations. And jtst like the 73% of respondents to the

:16:08. > :16:10.charter renewal concentration who supported the BBC's continuhng

:16:11. > :16:16.independence or the two thirds who said that the BBC had a that if

:16:17. > :16:20.wider impact on the market, or the three faiths that agreed th`t the

:16:21. > :16:25.current system is functioning, the current system of financing is

:16:26. > :16:31.functioning well, we on this side of the house and am on the benches

:16:32. > :16:37.opposite see a flourishing BBC and think, how can we support it and

:16:38. > :16:40.make it even better? Instead, the Secretary of State seems to have set

:16:41. > :16:47.out to deliberately diminish it undermine its finances, inddpendence

:16:48. > :16:56.and by insisting that the BBC be distinct if, in some way thhs can

:16:57. > :16:58.sing itself from successful popular broadcasting -- distancing htself

:16:59. > :17:01.from successful popular broadcasting. This change h`s

:17:02. > :17:05.nothing to do with equipping the BBC for a new age of digital technology

:17:06. > :17:12.and changing methods of medha consumption which the members for

:17:13. > :17:15.Solihull and my friend the lember for Bishop Auckland quite rhghtly

:17:16. > :17:22.emphasised, this has everything to do with hobbling a great Brhtish

:17:23. > :17:26.institution. Madam Deputy Speaker, we are not arguing that the BBC is

:17:27. > :17:31.perfect. I have participated in several debates this year alone

:17:32. > :17:40.about the BBC's poor record on diversity, the it BME, soci`l

:17:41. > :17:50.economic agenda, allergy BT or regional. We have heard concerns...

:17:51. > :17:56.The BBC's licence fee funding means it should provide something for

:17:57. > :18:02.everyone. I'm pleased that there recently launched either city policy

:18:03. > :18:07.is an attempt to reflect thhs. We shall watch with interest. When the

:18:08. > :18:13.BBC gets it wrong, it is right that we are critical. But we must also

:18:14. > :18:17.celebrate when they get it right. And it gets so very much right.

:18:18. > :18:23.That's why it is the greatest broadcaster on earth. There has been

:18:24. > :18:30.a great deal of concern raised in this debate and outside this house

:18:31. > :18:33.on the effects of the Chartdr on the BBC's independence. The Honourable

:18:34. > :18:42.member for Bishop Auckland spoke passionately about the impact on the

:18:43. > :18:47.BBC's editorial independencd. The charter changes the BBC's governance

:18:48. > :18:49.and regulation and they havd been described as the biggest ch`nges to

:18:50. > :18:54.the organisation in its 94 xear history.

:18:55. > :19:00.We on this side of the Housd have made it clear it is simply not

:19:01. > :19:05.acceptable for unitary board who will have influence on editorial

:19:06. > :19:09.output to have up to half its members appointed by governlent

:19:10. > :19:14.Those on the benches are sh`king their heads, but that is thd case.

:19:15. > :19:21.Madam Deputy Speaker, once tpon a time... I will give way. Thd

:19:22. > :19:27.influence comes postproducthon, so there is a controversy. And that is

:19:28. > :19:31.perfectly right and proper. I thank the honourable member for that

:19:32. > :19:39.intervention. It is an established principle of regulation, thd

:19:40. > :19:47.chilling effect of post-rock, postproduction influence it would

:19:48. > :19:51.have in this case. -- post-hoc. The influence on editorial power,

:19:52. > :19:56.editorial influence. I do h`ve an interest, as I declared, in having

:19:57. > :20:03.worked for off,, which must be remembered. The current Prile

:20:04. > :20:07.Minister once vowed to abolhsh it, but rather than abolishing ht the

:20:08. > :20:10.Government has heaped new responsibilities and powers,

:20:11. > :20:15.creating in some respect a super-regulator, but will they be

:20:16. > :20:20.furnishing it with further resources or ensuring the internal botndaries

:20:21. > :20:27.that are needed to do such hmportant functions? Madam Deputy Spe`ker

:20:28. > :20:33.Spectrum may not be as sexy as Strictly but it requires focused

:20:34. > :20:39.resource and energy to get ht right. We want to make sure the resources

:20:40. > :20:42.are there in place so that happens. The Secretary of State said earlier

:20:43. > :20:45.previous administrations have appointed members to the bo`rd, and

:20:46. > :20:48.that was the subject of an intervention, but he failed to

:20:49. > :20:55.mention that in the past thd board has not had direct influencd on the

:20:56. > :21:00.BBC's editorial content. Thhs is a point that the Secretary of State

:21:01. > :21:06.and the Minister must addressed Other members today spoke of the

:21:07. > :21:08.threat to the financial inddpendence of the BBC. My honourable friends,

:21:09. > :21:21.the members for high pointed out how it threaten

:21:22. > :21:24.services. Birdie Kim the TV with free television licences for over

:21:25. > :21:29.75s has already threatened hts future independence and was a

:21:30. > :21:37.worrying precedent. An independent organisation being corrupted into

:21:38. > :21:42.delivering government policx. The proposals of allowing the N`tional

:21:43. > :21:48.Audit Office access to the BBC's commercial arm could arrangd its

:21:49. > :21:52.commercial operations, further undermining its finances and

:21:53. > :22:01.independence. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is our BBC. It belongs to the

:22:02. > :22:10.people. Every household pays for it. But the Government are messhng with

:22:11. > :22:17.the fundamentals of our Beeb, not to cricket for the digital age enable

:22:18. > :22:23.it to fight the new global bemoths or represent our diverse society,

:22:24. > :22:27.but because the BBC is a public sector success story, and that

:22:28. > :22:37.undermines the crooked ideology of this freewheeling government. I urge

:22:38. > :22:47.the House to support this motion and to protect our BBC.

:22:48. > :22:54.Madam Debbie Speaker, it is a great opportunity to respond to this

:22:55. > :22:59.important debate. May I think all members who made such effective

:23:00. > :23:04.conclusions. -- Deputy Speaker. The brilliant speeches from the member

:23:05. > :23:16.of East Dumbartonshire and them honourable member of Solihull who

:23:17. > :23:20.was employed by the BBC. All the people who have benefited from the

:23:21. > :23:23.BBC on this side of the House. The honourable member for Bishop

:23:24. > :23:30.Auckland and Montgomeryshird, who rightly talked about the importance

:23:31. > :23:34.of S4C, for who he has been a champion for throughout. Thd member

:23:35. > :23:37.of Hayward and Middleton spdaking for students and the honour`ble

:23:38. > :23:46.member for Southport, a bully book ended by the formidable spokesman

:23:47. > :23:49.for the opposition and the honourable member for Newcastle upon

:23:50. > :23:56.Tyne Central who I have shadowed now for six years. I bow to no one in my

:23:57. > :24:06.love and respect for the BBC. I am currently immersed, immersed in

:24:07. > :24:10.Versailles. If anyone wants to understand the dominance of the

:24:11. > :24:16.British media, it comes to something when the French have to makd a film,

:24:17. > :24:20.a ten episode series about one of the most important episode hn

:24:21. > :24:26.history, and it has to be done in English so it can be shown on the

:24:27. > :24:29.BBC. Quite right. Who wants Brexit when if we Remain the French have to

:24:30. > :24:34.make all their programmes in English? To echo my right honourable

:24:35. > :24:41.friend from Montgomeryshire, saying the BBC as important to him as his

:24:42. > :24:46.own family. I go to bed every night with BBC, I cannot go to sldep and

:24:47. > :24:49.rest radio five live is plaxing on my clock radio. This gives le an

:24:50. > :24:58.opportunity to congratulate the newly appointed president on radio

:24:59. > :25:04.five live and Emma Barnett `s well, two important announcements about

:25:05. > :25:09.new presenters on radio fivd live. A formidable station. I think in the

:25:10. > :25:14.short time I have available to me let me address some of the points

:25:15. > :25:17.that were raised. One is thd attempt to try and run an argument that

:25:18. > :25:23.somehow the BBC's independence is threatened by the new unitary board.

:25:24. > :25:29.As you are well aware, the governors of the BBC were appointed bx the

:25:30. > :25:32.Government, and we saw how the last baby-macro government behavdd when

:25:33. > :25:38.it appointed a crony to be the chairman of the BBC and appointed a

:25:39. > :25:42.Labour donor to be the director-general of the BBC. Then

:25:43. > :25:49.when the BBC displeased thel, it ran them both out of town. The BBC trust

:25:50. > :25:56.is appointed by the Governmdnt, but this new board, the majoritx members

:25:57. > :26:01.will be appointed by the BBC. The nations and regions members will be

:26:02. > :26:07.appointed by the Government, under an independent appointments process.

:26:08. > :26:10.If you read the excellent, which the deputy Secretary of State

:26:11. > :26:13.commission, you will see a thoughtful analysis of the best way

:26:14. > :26:18.of appointing members to thd board. I would urge honourable members to

:26:19. > :26:23.read that. There is no attelpt to threaten the BBC and the position of

:26:24. > :26:27.the director-general as editing chief is strengthened. Therd was

:26:28. > :26:31.talk from honourable members about the importance of nations and

:26:32. > :26:35.regions. That is strengthendd by the white paper. We see the BBC itself

:26:36. > :26:40.taking important steps to enhance its coverage in the nations and

:26:41. > :26:45.regions. In the great nation of Scotland, new drama and comddy

:26:46. > :26:48.editors for Scotland. Important partnerships with important

:26:49. > :26:52.stakeholders like creative Scotland, the creation of a centre of

:26:53. > :26:59.excellence for factual programming and the all-important news review.

:27:00. > :27:02.And of course, there has bedn talk about the clause, that sometimes

:27:03. > :27:05.this is a charter by the back door. We simply recognise the way things

:27:06. > :27:10.are changing in the media and we know if we put in place a structure,

:27:11. > :27:16.an 11 year charter which gives the BBC great deal of independence for

:27:17. > :27:20.the sustainable decade... Btt we know technology is changing. Look at

:27:21. > :27:25.the SNP front bench, they are on their blackberries and iPads,

:27:26. > :27:30.consuming media from all ovdr the world. This is the challengd the BBC

:27:31. > :27:34.faces. Maybe in five years they will be watching this through virtual

:27:35. > :27:38.reality goggles, and at that point we will want to sit down with the

:27:39. > :27:44.BBC and say... And say, do we need to change anything because dveryone

:27:45. > :27:48.is watching through virtual reality? It is a sensible attempt to have a

:27:49. > :27:53.review of how the charter is working. The BBC needs more help in

:27:54. > :27:58.this multimedia world. I thhnk you would agree with me, that is the

:27:59. > :28:05.right way forward. I'm very pleased that diversity has been mentioned by

:28:06. > :28:09.many honourable members. Thhs is an issue that is deeply import`nt to me

:28:10. > :28:14.and many honourable members, and indeed to the viewers of thd BBC. It

:28:15. > :28:18.is vital that we recognise the charter, thanks to the Secrdtary of

:28:19. > :28:23.State, has put diversity into the charter for the first time. That is

:28:24. > :28:27.an important milestone. I rdcognise the honourable lady from Haxward and

:28:28. > :28:31.Middleton raising concerns `bout the iPlayer loophole. We want to close

:28:32. > :28:36.the iPlayer loophole to help the BBC, as more and more peopld consume

:28:37. > :28:47.the BBC on tablets and mobile phones,

:28:48. > :28:51.it is the licence fee is also able to modernise. So what we sed from

:28:52. > :28:54.this white paper, which has been widely welcomed on all sides of the

:28:55. > :28:56.House, is a white paper that addresses the needs of the BBC, that

:28:57. > :28:59.strengthens its independencd, takes the charter out of the electoral

:29:00. > :29:03.cycle, recognises the importance of a distinctive BBC highlights the

:29:04. > :29:09.importance of diversity, and quite rightly has been welcomed bx the

:29:10. > :29:16.BBC. I beg to move the amendment. The question is that the orhginal

:29:17. > :29:23.words stand part of the question. As many of those of the opinion say

:29:24. > :30:25.aye. Of the country say no. Clear the lobby.

:30:26. > :30:39.Order. The question is, the original words stand part of the question. Of

:30:40. > :30:52.those to the opinion say ayd, those to the country say no. Tell as for

:30:53. > :41:09.the ayes Andy noes. -- for the ayes and noes.

:41:10. > :41:33.SPEAKER: Order. The ayes to the right, 216, the noes to the left,

:41:34. > :41:44.286. The ayes to the right, 216 the noes to the left, 286 so thd noes

:41:45. > :41:47.have it, unlock! Order. Supplementary business

:41:48. > :41:54.statement from the Leader of the House.

:41:55. > :41:58.Thank you, Mr Speaker. I must put the question on the

:41:59. > :42:03.overall position first. The original question on the order paper was

:42:04. > :42:10.since when an amendment has been proposed on the order paper.

:42:11. > :42:23.The question is that the proposed votes be added. All those in favour

:42:24. > :42:30.say aye. And all those against no. I think the ayes have it. We come to

:42:31. > :42:33.be supplementary is in a st`tement from the Leader of the Housd, Mr

:42:34. > :42:37.Chris Grayling. Thank you, with your permission I'd

:42:38. > :42:41.like to make a short supplelentary business statement. The bushness

:42:42. > :42:44.tomorrow will be a motion to approve a statutory instrument relating to

:42:45. > :42:49.the European Union referendtm on voter registration, followed by the

:42:50. > :42:53.previously envisaged general debate on carers as determined by the

:42:54. > :42:56.Backbench Business committed. I will of course make my usual bushness

:42:57. > :43:01.statement announcing future business tomorrow morning.

:43:02. > :43:05.The shadow leader Mr Chris Bryant. I'm grateful to the governmdnt for

:43:06. > :43:08.doing what we asked earlier and it's obviously important we try `nd make

:43:09. > :43:13.sure it's possible for everxbody trying to take part in the Duropean

:43:14. > :43:16.referendum to do so. I'm gr`teful for the consultation there has been

:43:17. > :43:21.between the two front bench is. I hope the leader will be abld to

:43:22. > :43:24.confirm there will not be any more extraneous statements tomorrow other

:43:25. > :43:28.than his business statement because the carers debate is very ilportant,

:43:29. > :43:33.it is National carers week `nd there are many people who care about that

:43:34. > :43:36.issue. Of course we will see tomorrow

:43:37. > :43:41.morning as normal whether there is other business. On acutely `ware

:43:42. > :43:44.that the carers debate is a matter of great importance to people in

:43:45. > :43:52.this house and thank the honourable gentleman.

:43:53. > :43:58.We will take Mr Wishart first. Order. Perfectly proper way in which

:43:59. > :44:03.to proceed to which nobody should object. I would just say to the

:44:04. > :44:09.House that this is a narrow, they very important matter, and therefore

:44:10. > :44:15.necessarily exchanges are, H wouldn't say circumscribed, but

:44:16. > :44:19.limited to the question of the scheduled business, a reschdduling

:44:20. > :44:26.of course, for tomorrow. Thhs is not an opportunity for a general airing

:44:27. > :44:31.of opinions about overall btsiness, still less is it an opportunity for

:44:32. > :44:39.an exchange of views about `spects of the EU referendum question. I do

:44:40. > :44:42.know why I thought the honotrable member might be so tempted, maybe

:44:43. > :44:46.it's just the cheeky expression on his face, but it's purely about the

:44:47. > :44:51.scheduled business for tomorrow to the narrow confines of which I know

:44:52. > :44:56.the honourable gentleman of the SNP will stick with rigid proprhety as

:44:57. > :45:00.always. I would also like to add our

:45:01. > :45:04.gratitude to the Leader of the House for changing the business for

:45:05. > :45:08.tomorrow. This demonstrates a deeply systemic failure in the electoral

:45:09. > :45:13.process. This is supposed to be the gold standard, the biggest decision

:45:14. > :45:17.this house and country has dver taken yet it has turned into a

:45:18. > :45:21.panicky response to a potentially disastrous situation in which loads

:45:22. > :45:24.of people could have been ldft out. When we have the opportunitx to

:45:25. > :45:27.debate this tomorrow I hope the issues are aired and we can get to

:45:28. > :45:32.the heart of what has happened to ensure this never happens again

:45:33. > :45:36.Mr Speaker, you granted the urgent question early and with the debate

:45:37. > :45:39.tomorrow morning I'm sure the honourable gentleman would like to

:45:40. > :45:45.make points about the process and he will have opportunity to do so.

:45:46. > :45:49.SPEAKER: Indeed. But Liam Fox. Mr Speaker, in order to asshst the

:45:50. > :45:54.House in its deliberations tomorrow, would my Right Honourable friend

:45:55. > :45:59.publish any precedents for `ny government of any colour ch`nging

:46:00. > :46:03.electoral law during an election period itself.

:46:04. > :46:06.Mr Speaker, the Mizdow who will take part in that debate is sitthng

:46:07. > :46:09.alongside of me and will take note of the request and do everything he

:46:10. > :46:16.can to keep the House as fully informed as possible. Jane O'Brien.

:46:17. > :46:20.Thank you, Mr Speaker, I entirely support the decision to extdnd the

:46:21. > :46:23.registration period but givdn the shambles that has occurred here

:46:24. > :46:27.Cambuur Leeuwarden of the House guarantee that everybody who wants

:46:28. > :46:32.to register to vote is now going to be able to and would he consider

:46:33. > :46:38.looking at automatic registration for the future, in order th`t we can

:46:39. > :46:43.avoid these problems? These are matters for the ddbate

:46:44. > :46:46.tomorrow, I can simply ensure the House -- sure the House that the

:46:47. > :46:52.government will allow those attempting to register the

:46:53. > :46:55.opportunity to do so. Mr Speaker, can my Right Honourable

:46:56. > :46:59.friend confirmed that peopld have had months and months in whhch to

:47:00. > :47:04.register, and if they left ht until the last minute and all tridd to

:47:05. > :47:12.register yesterday that's their fault and we should not change our

:47:13. > :47:15.regulations in the middle of a very important referendum campaign simply

:47:16. > :47:18.to suit those who had not organised their personal affairs well enough

:47:19. > :47:25.to secure their registration in good time.

:47:26. > :47:29.I know that my honourable friend feel strongly about these m`tters.

:47:30. > :47:34.The benefit of the debate and vote tomorrow is he will have thd

:47:35. > :47:37.opportunity to express his views and participate fully in those

:47:38. > :47:41.processes. This is purely a question of the

:47:42. > :47:46.scheduling of the business. If people wish to opine on the merits

:47:47. > :47:49.or demerits of the proposed legislation to be brought bdfore the

:47:50. > :47:58.House they will have that opportunity tomorrow. And I wonder

:47:59. > :48:07.whether that will burn off ` few colleagues. Obviously not you!

:48:08. > :48:11.Mr Speaker, Cambuur Leeuwarden the, in relation to tomorrow's btsiness,

:48:12. > :48:15.ensure that members of the government send out a very clear

:48:16. > :48:21.message after any decisions that might be taken tomorrow to dnsure

:48:22. > :48:25.that people actually use thdir vote once they have registered and know

:48:26. > :48:28.how to do so. Mr Speaker, I can assure thd House

:48:29. > :48:32.that that has already happened. Clearly those boats cannot count

:48:33. > :48:37.unless the measure is passed. The encouragement of people to

:48:38. > :48:43.participate in case this hotse decides that weight is conthnuing.

:48:44. > :48:48.Sur Nigel Evans. Will there be enough time to discuss

:48:49. > :48:53.one issue with registration tomorrow which is that a number of pdople who

:48:54. > :48:58.are clearly ineligible to vote, EU citizens, are being sent

:48:59. > :49:02.registration cards or ballot cards now? Will there be an opportunity

:49:03. > :49:05.for the Government to express what action they are taking to ensure

:49:06. > :49:10.that those people who are not eligible to vote will not bd able to

:49:11. > :49:13.register in the first place? Mr Speaker, as you will recall this was

:49:14. > :49:17.raised in the urgent question earlier and my honourable friend

:49:18. > :49:21.makes an important point. Mhnisters have provided reassurance to the

:49:22. > :49:26.House but I'm sure they can do so tomorrow if required.

:49:27. > :49:27.Cambuur Leeuwarden of the House confirm how long the debate will be

:49:28. > :49:40.tomorrow? A standard 90 minute debate, as is

:49:41. > :49:43.customary for secondary leghslation. The extension of registration will

:49:44. > :49:49.not apply to Northern Ireland, therefore will be measured be

:49:50. > :49:59.subject to be certified unddr EU provision? The drafting will include

:50:00. > :50:07.Northern Ireland. The ability to register onlhne,

:50:08. > :50:12.easily, meant a lot of applhcations last year were duplicates, which

:50:13. > :50:16.meant unnecessary work was required from election teams. How many

:50:17. > :50:25.applications were genuine and how many were duplicates?

:50:26. > :50:28.I can simply say on all these points my honourable friend will h`ve the

:50:29. > :50:32.opportunity to take part in the debate tomorrow and deal with very

:50:33. > :50:37.important issues before this house. Can I clarify the Northern Hreland

:50:38. > :50:39.situation? It is subject to discussion but because Northern

:50:40. > :50:44.Ireland has a different system of registration we want to makd sure it

:50:45. > :50:53.is handled in the appropriate way. Order. We now come... I am lost

:50:54. > :51:00.grateful to the Leader of the House for his supplementary busindss

:51:01. > :51:10.statement. In the name of the Leader of the Opposition this notion is on

:51:11. > :51:19.the December disability employment gap. Mr Owen Smith.

:51:20. > :51:28.Thank you very much Mr Speaker. I do so miss the Speaker because in my

:51:29. > :51:31.opinion, the opinion of Her Majesty's loyal opposition, this

:51:32. > :51:34.country is failing disabled people in this country, failing to support

:51:35. > :51:41.them into work and those un`ble to work. And they are doing so

:51:42. > :51:46.deliberately, with calculathon and care and premeditation, even. It was

:51:47. > :51:51.entirely premeditated to go into the last election boasting they were

:51:52. > :51:55.going to cut a further ?12 billion from Social Security, but forgetting

:51:56. > :52:00.to mention it was going to come from disabled people, from peopld on low

:52:01. > :52:05.wages needing tax credits and universal credit. I would lhke to

:52:06. > :52:10.say, Mr Speaker, we don't know why they are doing it but we do. The

:52:11. > :52:14.Secretary of State's predecdssor told us in his tearful goodbye. He

:52:15. > :52:20.said, we see benefits as a pot of money to cut because they don't vote

:52:21. > :52:26.for us. It's still shocks md, Mr Speaker, to repeat that demolition

:52:27. > :52:31.of this government's one nation credentials, indicted out of their

:52:32. > :52:35.own mouths. So though while I welcome his successor to thd

:52:36. > :52:39.dispatch box this afternoon, as all too often the last one faildd to

:52:40. > :52:44.turn up to this house to accept scrutiny or difficult questhons like

:52:45. > :52:48.this or the bedroom tax. I welcome again the decision he took hn his

:52:49. > :52:52.first day in the job to stop the plans to take personal independence

:52:53. > :52:58.payments away from people unable to dress themselves or use the toilet

:52:59. > :53:00.unaided. I also welcome the fact that in the same speech the

:53:01. > :53:06.Secretary of State said there would be" no more welfare cuts". But Mr

:53:07. > :53:10.Speaker, I will deplore the fact he must have known, even as he made

:53:11. > :53:18.that statement, that the dedpest cuts had Audie been made. The cuts

:53:19. > :53:23.from DLA to PIP, the cuts to the work programme, the cuts to

:53:24. > :53:28.universal credit, all those sharp incisions had already been lade but

:53:29. > :53:33.the effect had yet to be felt. Now, a few months down the line, the pain

:53:34. > :53:38.is evident and the harm is clear and can be measured in the widening gap

:53:39. > :53:45.in employment between disabled people and the wider population

:53:46. > :53:48.Will my honourable friend ghveaway? Can he take a step back frol the

:53:49. > :53:54.rhetoric and look at the factor moment. Have we not welcomed 36 ,000

:53:55. > :54:00.more people in work over thd last three years and 3.3 million in

:54:01. > :54:05.total, will he not welcome that I welcome every job that is provided

:54:06. > :54:08.for a disabled person in thhs country and I welcome every