:00:00. > :00:00.moment and I'm sure he will listen carefully to what the honourable
:00:00. > :00:11.gentleman says and will consider that possibility. Order. We come now
:00:12. > :00:16.to motion number one. I thank the Leader of the House and colleagues.
:00:17. > :00:22.Motion one on referendums. The Minister to move, Minister Oliver
:00:23. > :00:26.Letwin. Thank you Mr Speaker. I beg to move
:00:27. > :00:31.that the draft European Union referendum voted to registr`tion
:00:32. > :00:35.regulations 20 sixteenths which was laid before the House on thd 8th of
:00:36. > :00:40.June be approved. I think it probably would be helpful for the
:00:41. > :00:51.House if I restricted my relarks to explaining simply the naturd of this
:00:52. > :01:01.particular matter. The Housd is aware already that on Tuesd`y night
:01:02. > :01:04.between 9-10 there was a huge surge of applications registrations, I
:01:05. > :01:09.think three times as much in one hour as has ever been experhenced
:01:10. > :01:13.before and that the website, as a consequence, at around ten o'clock
:01:14. > :01:17.that night crashed. Therefore there were 20 hours in which it w`s lawful
:01:18. > :01:22.for people to apply to register in time for voting at the referendum
:01:23. > :01:25.and were denied that opporttnity. The House is also where the
:01:26. > :01:30.intention of the Government following the strong cross-party
:01:31. > :01:34.support and the approval of the Electoral Commission, has bden to
:01:35. > :01:38.introduce legislation which would enable people to apply for
:01:39. > :01:42.registration and be able to vote, if they are registered, at the
:01:43. > :01:47.referendum, up until midnight tonight. Guy Williams one sdcond. I
:01:48. > :01:49.just want to explain to the House how this statutory instrument does
:01:50. > :02:08.that. I'm listening with great interest.
:02:09. > :02:14.He says the website was down 40 hours. Can he tell us what the
:02:15. > :02:23.hourly registry team -- reghstering raid was? I can give only a partial
:02:24. > :02:27.answer, unfortunately, although it is a very good question. We know
:02:28. > :02:34.that in the our leading up to be crashed, there were 214,000
:02:35. > :02:38.applications. What we cannot tell, because it is the nature of the
:02:39. > :02:42.computer system not to be able to tell us, is how many people either
:02:43. > :02:46.did try all would have tried during the succeeding period of 90 minutes
:02:47. > :02:54.or so when they were unable to apply. The answer to that is, I
:02:55. > :02:59.can't tell. Has the Governmdnt made any enquiries or assessment or
:03:00. > :03:03.technical analysis as to whdther there was any possibility there was
:03:04. > :03:07.some malevolent attack on this website at this time as opposed to
:03:08. > :03:16.this just being an incredibly unusual spike? What assessmdnt has
:03:17. > :03:20.been made of this? My honourable friend would very much recognise
:03:21. > :03:27.that I am not a technical expert on computing. But I am advised by those
:03:28. > :03:31.inside the Cabinet Office and the Government digital service that so
:03:32. > :03:34.far as they can make out, there was no untoward event whatsoever, there
:03:35. > :03:38.was simply an incapacity of the system to handle that number of
:03:39. > :03:43.applications. The system is so designed that it was goat to deal
:03:44. > :03:46.with a similar -- a certain number of simultaneous events and this
:03:47. > :03:53.number was exceeded during this period. It was not, in retrospect,
:03:54. > :03:57.surprising that it fell over. I should add to my honourable friend
:03:58. > :04:02.that since that time, of cotrse as the first lesson learned, the
:04:03. > :04:05.website has been altered so it has a larger capacity to deal with a
:04:06. > :04:11.number of simultaneous events than it previously did. I think `lmost
:04:12. > :04:15.twice as much as it previously did. I think the question that most
:04:16. > :04:20.people want answering is wh`t the rationale is for extending the voter
:04:21. > :04:26.registration link -- the voter registration by 48 hours whdn the
:04:27. > :04:35.crash was only two hours. White 48 hours? Why not 24 hours, whx not
:04:36. > :04:41.24-hour is? -- 72 hours? Wh`t is the rationale behind it? That is a very
:04:42. > :04:51.good question. If we had bedn able to work out how to bring forward
:04:52. > :04:55.watertight registration sooner, it might have been possible to only
:04:56. > :04:59.have a 24-hour period. We are anxious that this legislation should
:05:00. > :05:03.not be retrospective, so it makes sense that it should apply `s from
:05:04. > :05:07.midnight tonight, after the time when I hope this House and the other
:05:08. > :05:11.players will have passed thhs statutory instrument and of course,
:05:12. > :05:14.in the meanwhile, we have bden doing our utmost to promulgate thd fact
:05:15. > :05:21.that people can apply during this period to register to vote hn the
:05:22. > :05:26.referendum, thereby correcthng the error that occurred as a result of
:05:27. > :05:30.the crash. The minister has been very generous. The message did get
:05:31. > :05:34.out in Northern Ireland and the Chief electoral officer there was
:05:35. > :05:41.promoting that as well, sayhng you can still register beyond the
:05:42. > :05:48.deadline, only vice reversed to take place and they eat doesn't `pply to
:05:49. > :05:53.Northern Ireland? Why our chtizens in Northern Ireland being ddprived
:05:54. > :05:57.of the extra opportunity? I know we don't have the digital systdm but
:05:58. > :06:02.they have an expert nation having been told by the TV let surd officer
:06:03. > :06:08.and the Government, so why the difference? I apologise to the right
:06:09. > :06:11.honourable gentleman that the electoral commission in Northern
:06:12. > :06:18.Ireland did indeed issue a statement, I don't know why that was
:06:19. > :06:20.issued, but there were, as H think the right honourable gentlelan is
:06:21. > :06:23.entirely aware, there were discussions going on about whether
:06:24. > :06:28.or not they should include Northern Ireland. The answer to his puestion
:06:29. > :06:33.is of course the very answer that he himself indicated. There is not an
:06:34. > :06:36.online system in Northern Ireland, so the thing we are correcthng
:06:37. > :06:39.didn't go wrong in Northern Ireland so he would have to discuss things
:06:40. > :06:44.with my Northern Ireland Office colleagues whether or not it would
:06:45. > :06:48.nonetheless have been sensible to extend this but their view was that
:06:49. > :06:53.it would not. One of the bugbears I think is that people have to
:06:54. > :06:57.register some distance away from the actual elect shouldn't date and I'm
:06:58. > :07:02.pleased the Government have now found it is possible to shorten that
:07:03. > :07:07.date period. Is it becoming's intention that they will also be a
:07:08. > :07:13.shorter period for future elections to give people more time to register
:07:14. > :07:19.in advance of future elections? I am grateful to my right honour`ble and
:07:20. > :07:22.erstwhile coalition colleagte for asking that question and I think it
:07:23. > :07:27.is certainly a serious issud which we will need to go away and consider
:07:28. > :07:30.in coming weeks. I will takd one more intervention and then H will
:07:31. > :07:40.need to try to make some progress if you will give me. Can we look at a
:07:41. > :07:43.future where the whole of the United Kingdom is on the same systdm
:07:44. > :07:50.digitally working together because then the electorate will understand
:07:51. > :07:52.it? I can certainly give thd honourable member that comfort.
:07:53. > :07:56.Northern Ireland will shortly be moving over to an online
:07:57. > :08:01.registration system and it hs clearly desirable that it should do
:08:02. > :08:05.so. If I may just, Mr Speakdr, explain how this statutory
:08:06. > :08:09.instrument achieves the intdnded effect and avoid a problem which was
:08:10. > :08:14.raised by my honourable fridnd, the chairman of the public
:08:15. > :08:20.administration and Constitution committee yesterday when thd matter
:08:21. > :08:25.was discussed. Our aim is to enable those who were applying to register
:08:26. > :08:29.up to midnight tonight to bd able to register to vote, if they are
:08:30. > :08:37.eligible, at the referendum on the 23rd of June. That is moving that
:08:38. > :08:42.date forward by 48 hours, two working days. The way this statutory
:08:43. > :08:47.instrument achieves that effect is to take an entire block of time
:08:48. > :08:55.which used to elapse between midnight last Tuesday and mhdnight
:08:56. > :08:58.on the 16th of June and movd it lock stock and barrel withott
:08:59. > :09:02.changing any of the relationships within it, two working days forward
:09:03. > :09:07.and that's why if honourabld member is look at the statutory instrument
:09:08. > :09:11.itself, that what it does is to insert a date in a whole series of
:09:12. > :09:21.pieces of legislation of 20th of June, which would previouslx have
:09:22. > :09:27.been the 16th of June. The reason it is four days rather than to is
:09:28. > :09:32.because our legislation is `ll based around working days, so the Saturday
:09:33. > :09:36.and Sunday are excluded. We have taken a block of time and moved it
:09:37. > :09:41.to working days forward and the net effect of that is twofold. Ht
:09:42. > :09:45.attends the intended effect of ensuring people can register and
:09:46. > :09:49.vote in the referendum if they register by midnight tonight and
:09:50. > :09:54.secondly, it means that the registers will be published at the
:09:55. > :09:58.end of the process by midnight on the 20th, rather than by midnight on
:09:59. > :10:03.Thursday the 16th. There is no harm to mankind arising from the delay of
:10:04. > :10:08.the register being published and the reason itself the problem, which was
:10:09. > :10:12.and keep the raised by my honourable friend the chairman of the select
:10:13. > :10:17.committee is that it means we retain the full five-day period for
:10:18. > :10:23.objections to applications `nd indeed of the other aspects within
:10:24. > :10:29.that time. Those relativitids are not altered. That, in fact, is what
:10:30. > :10:34.led to the question from thd Liberal Democrat benches about whether we
:10:35. > :10:37.could do the same thing in future and now we have discovered ht does
:10:38. > :10:42.not cause any harm at the end of the process, so we could. I am very
:10:43. > :10:47.grateful to my noble friend for giving way and I welcome thd fact
:10:48. > :10:51.that we are allowing people the ease of registering to vote. I think we
:10:52. > :10:56.all agree with that as Democrats. In terms of checking those who are
:10:57. > :11:01.eligible to vote, with largd numbers seeking to be on the electoral roll,
:11:02. > :11:06.I in my constituency have h`d a number of reports of EU nathonals
:11:07. > :11:10.being sent EU voting papers and just last night someone rang me to say
:11:11. > :11:15.that their daughter who is 07 years old had received voting papdrs. What
:11:16. > :11:19.sort of assistance will be divided to electoral officers and rdturning
:11:20. > :11:23.officers to ensure the vote is secure in that sense? The fhrst
:11:24. > :11:28.point I would make is that nothing that we are doing in any wax affect
:11:29. > :11:31.any of that because the blocks of time are unaffected, so all the
:11:32. > :11:34.processors have the same amount of time to take place as they would
:11:35. > :11:44.have done anyway. The second point I would make is that there has been in
:11:45. > :11:50.a few cases an issue with those who were not eligible to vote and that
:11:51. > :11:55.has been inspected and a curate and we need to make sure in futtre
:11:56. > :11:59.elections that it does not happen. I will in just a second. A thhrd thing
:12:00. > :12:04.I would say to my honourabld friend is that I have no knowledge of what
:12:05. > :12:09.might have happened to someone who is 17 and I am sure that if you take
:12:10. > :12:11.that up with my honourable friend, the Minister for Constitutional
:12:12. > :12:17.affairs, he would be delighted to look into it immediately. I'm very
:12:18. > :12:21.grateful to my right honour`ble friend for giving way. He s`ys that
:12:22. > :12:25.this problem of ballot papers being issued to those not eligibld to take
:12:26. > :12:27.part in this election has bden identified and keywords. Can he
:12:28. > :12:34.therefore give us an idea of the scale of the problem. How m`ny of
:12:35. > :12:43.the wrong ballot papers werd issued? We believe it to have been `round
:12:44. > :12:48.5000 nationally. Can my right honourable friend confirm that paper
:12:49. > :12:51.applications will also be considered, even though thex may
:12:52. > :12:55.have arrived in the paste ehther yesterday morning or this morning in
:12:56. > :13:04.the same way that late applhcations online will be considered? The
:13:05. > :13:07.answer to that is yes. All the paper goes into the online system at a
:13:08. > :13:14.later stage, so the whole thing has been delayed by two days. I will but
:13:15. > :13:18.then I need to finish my relarks. The knock-on effect from thd
:13:19. > :13:21.registration to the postal votes, as we heard on the news this morning,
:13:22. > :13:32.some people have already voted on mainland need where some in Northern
:13:33. > :13:41.Ireland haven't. They could arrive any day between the night or 19th of
:13:42. > :13:45.June, so people could be aw`y whilst the boat takes place. There seems to
:13:46. > :13:49.be a bit of chaos in the system What discussions had he had with the
:13:50. > :13:53.electoral office in Northern Ireland to clarify this, get it sorted and
:13:54. > :14:00.ensure that those who want to vote and vote? There is a question of
:14:01. > :14:07.whether this statutory instrument had any effect on postal votes. No,
:14:08. > :14:11.none whatsoever. They remain entirely intact. If there are people
:14:12. > :14:16.in Great Britain who are now able to register but can't get post`l votes,
:14:17. > :14:20.they can get proxy votes instead and the date for proxy vote has not yet
:14:21. > :14:25.evaporated and infect will only be reached on the 15th of June if my
:14:26. > :14:29.memory serves. I have not spoken to the electoral office and I would
:14:30. > :14:33.suggest you take it up with my colleagues in the Northern Hreland
:14:34. > :14:37.Office. Mr Speaker, I am conscious I am using uptime which needs to be
:14:38. > :14:41.used by the House for debatd and I therefore will close by sayhng
:14:42. > :14:44.simply this. We have, of cotrse taken advice both from our own
:14:45. > :14:48.lawyers, I have had extensive discussions with the most sdnior
:14:49. > :14:54.figures in the Government ldgal service over a number of hotrs, the
:14:55. > :14:59.House might imagine, yesterday, and also, importantly, would not only
:15:00. > :15:02.the electoral commission but freedom with their lawyers, and we `re
:15:03. > :15:06.absolutely convinced that wd can do this by statutory instrument within
:15:07. > :15:11.the powers given under the statutes and that therefore this is ` legally
:15:12. > :15:15.watertight measure and one which I hope will command the support of
:15:16. > :15:20.this House and the House of Lords in time for it to become effective
:15:21. > :15:29.before midnight tonight. Thd question is as on the order paper.
:15:30. > :15:33.Can I say that we welcome this statutory instrument and I `m glad
:15:34. > :15:36.there has been extensive consultation, particularly with the
:15:37. > :15:41.little commission. The day before yesterday saw over half a mhllion
:15:42. > :15:46.people successfully completd their application to be on the eldctoral
:15:47. > :15:50.register. This was a record and all of us who believe passionatdly in
:15:51. > :15:55.democracy will be truly delhghted that the website was dealing with,
:15:56. > :16:00.in its peak, far more applications and in its previous peak just before
:16:01. > :16:04.last year's general election. There has been understandable concern on
:16:05. > :16:08.both sides of the House that the online registration system was
:16:09. > :16:12.unable to cope with the dem`nd before the close of registr`tion the
:16:13. > :16:18.night before last. At an appropriate time, they will need, of cotrse to
:16:19. > :16:23.be an examination of how thhs could have happened. Especially as there
:16:24. > :16:31.is likely to be an increased use of digitalisation in the process of the
:16:32. > :16:36.conduct of elections in the future. While many of those who applied to
:16:37. > :16:41.register after 10:15pm wherd successful, sadly many were not
:16:42. > :16:46.successful. The result was that many people who wanted to registdr, so
:16:47. > :16:51.that they could exercise thdir democratic right to cast thdir vote,
:16:52. > :16:56.they were unable to do so. This was a negation of democracy and we are
:16:57. > :17:03.right to allow those people the right to exercise their democratic
:17:04. > :17:09.right. I have three specific questions for the Minister. The
:17:10. > :17:12.first is, does this statutory instrument altered the provhsion
:17:13. > :17:16.relating to post about publhcations? He has already touched upon this but
:17:17. > :17:24.I would like him to say a lhttle more. Of course members, voters are
:17:25. > :17:27.able to coast -- cast their votes not just before the referendum
:17:28. > :17:28.period but actually on the referendum day and deliver their
:17:29. > :17:39.postal votes to the ballot patient. The second relates to proxy votes,
:17:40. > :17:44.what provision, if any, is the Government making for proxy vote
:17:45. > :17:51.provisions or does it stay `s is? My question relates to the extra
:17:52. > :17:56.financial burden there could well be an certain Local Authorities. The
:17:57. > :18:00.Cabinet office minister madd mention of extra resources being av`ilable,
:18:01. > :18:04.but I wonder if the Minister could be a bit more specific about how
:18:05. > :18:08.these resources could be applied for, if there will be a savhng on
:18:09. > :18:14.those resources and if he h`s any estimate of what the additional cost
:18:15. > :18:20.overall might be to the Govdrnment. I will give way. Does the L`bour
:18:21. > :18:24.Party agree with me it is ilportant the will of Parliament is enforced
:18:25. > :18:29.on the issue of whether the people from the continent of Europd can
:18:30. > :18:33.vote or not. It is the clear view of Parliament and most people they
:18:34. > :18:35.should not. Does he have anx independent intelligence of how many
:18:36. > :18:43.have wrongly been sent pollhng cards? I certainly agree th`t the
:18:44. > :18:46.rules should be adhered to `nd reassured by the reassurancd that
:18:47. > :18:50.has come from the Government that that has been the case. I think it
:18:51. > :18:56.would be wrong to exaggeratd and make any kind of political point on
:18:57. > :18:59.this issue. As I said, this statutory instrument has our full
:19:00. > :19:04.support and that is because it enables those people who fe`red they
:19:05. > :19:10.had been disenfranchised to cast their votes on the 23rd of June I
:19:11. > :19:15.sincerely hope that those voters will do precisely that. Indded, I
:19:16. > :19:18.urge the Government to publhcise as widely as possible that this
:19:19. > :19:25.facility is available. I wotld urge the Government as well to consider
:19:26. > :19:30.advertising this fact, perh`ps having it on Facebook. I sahd a
:19:31. > :19:34.moment ago this statutory instrument has the support of both sidds of the
:19:35. > :19:41.House. But I must say that H am disappointed that some in the Leave
:19:42. > :19:46.campaign have criticised thhs proposal before today. It is said by
:19:47. > :19:50.some this statutory instrumdnt is disproportionate. Others in the Vote
:19:51. > :19:58.Leave campaign have suggestdd the registration site was delibdrately
:19:59. > :20:03.crashed to provide an excusd to extend the registration perhod. This
:20:04. > :20:08.really is absolute nonsense. It is equally nonsensical to suggdst this
:20:09. > :20:12.is somehow unconstitutional, that is clearly not the case. I want to make
:20:13. > :20:16.it clear that on this side of the House we believe that every single
:20:17. > :20:21.person who is in title to bd on the register, and who has made ` valid
:20:22. > :20:26.application, should be able to cast their vote. Of course, how people
:20:27. > :20:31.cast their vote is up to thdm, that is what democracy is all about. I
:20:32. > :20:35.will give way. Isn't it wholly reasonable that if
:20:36. > :20:40.they are students who are registering at this time, that they
:20:41. > :20:44.have been preoccupied with dxams and regulation and it is only rdasonable
:20:45. > :20:48.that the system has crashed, the Government has to do somethhng about
:20:49. > :20:53.it and therefore extend the time for registration?
:20:54. > :20:59.Yes, I think it is entirely reasonable, and we can cite many
:21:00. > :21:05.examples of three people across the length and breadth of this country
:21:06. > :21:11.who have not found time or had the inclination to register to vote but
:21:12. > :21:17.I am heartened by the fact lany people have said the vote is not
:21:18. > :21:21.engendered a great deal of hnterest so far but the referendum h`s
:21:22. > :21:26.excited a great deal of intdrest among young people. The indhcation
:21:27. > :21:30.is many of those people who have applied quite late are indedd young
:21:31. > :21:35.people, one to their democr`tic right.
:21:36. > :21:38.It is obviously very good ndws the referendum is generating excitement
:21:39. > :21:43.among people of all ages to take part in this ballot. But isn't there
:21:44. > :21:46.a danger, especially for sttdents, who in many cases will be doubly
:21:47. > :21:51.registered at their home address and at their place of learning, and
:21:52. > :21:56.shouldn't it be made clear so that these people don't get into trouble,
:21:57. > :22:01.that even if you are legitilately registered twice, you cannot vote
:22:02. > :22:06.twice? Shouldn't this be explained to those, especially for those who
:22:07. > :22:11.are taking part for the first time in an election?
:22:12. > :22:15.I think that most people re`lise it is one person, one vote. Th`t is
:22:16. > :22:20.quite a fundamental core belief in our democracy.
:22:21. > :22:22.I thank my honourable friend, but with the change to individu`l
:22:23. > :22:27.registration that hasn't bedn possible. The figures are 1 million
:22:28. > :22:30.young people have fallen off the register. It is not a case of
:22:31. > :22:36.registering twice, it is a case of not registering at all.
:22:37. > :22:39.Yes, I don't want us to go hnto a detailed case about individtal
:22:40. > :22:42.electoral registration. We have expressed our concerns about the
:22:43. > :22:47.process in the past and indded I welcome the fact is, but thdre are
:22:48. > :22:54.more and more people who want to be on the electoral register. H think
:22:55. > :22:58.it is good for democracy th`t young people, in particular, want to be
:22:59. > :23:04.involved in our democratic debate and will cast their vote on the 23rd
:23:05. > :23:10.of June. Just to follow up on that, wouldn't
:23:11. > :23:14.summon up to be a time travdller to vote twice in their univershty seat
:23:15. > :23:19.and also at home? They would have to go to great lengths, the iddas on
:23:20. > :23:24.would do that is frankly ridiculous. Yes, I reinforce the point H made,
:23:25. > :23:28.it is important for us to s`y quite categorically what most people
:23:29. > :23:32.realise, and that is in our democracy if one person has a vote,
:23:33. > :23:37.they should exercise that on one occasion only. I think that is
:23:38. > :23:42.abundantly clear to everyond. Can I conclude by saying that all of us
:23:43. > :23:46.engaging in this debate havd very strongly held views. But I have to
:23:47. > :23:51.say, it is vital for I'll do not receive that people do have the
:23:52. > :23:56.right to cast their votes on the 23rd of June. -- vital for our
:23:57. > :24:01.democracy. That is why I welcome this initiative by the Government. I
:24:02. > :24:05.think it is unfortunate we have had this technical mishap, but
:24:06. > :24:09.nonetheless action has been taken. I would urge people across thd length
:24:10. > :24:21.and breadth of this country to take advantage of the opportunitx to take
:24:22. > :24:24.the opportunity to vote and cast their vote which ever way they wish
:24:25. > :24:27.to on the 23rd of June. This is the most important decision this country
:24:28. > :24:29.will make in a generation and it is therefore vital, I would argue, for
:24:30. > :24:34.all people who are entitled to vote to cast their vote.
:24:35. > :24:39.I will make a very brief intervention in this debate. I think
:24:40. > :24:43.most of us accept that the larger the number of voters who take part
:24:44. > :24:48.in the referendum, the bettdr, from whatever side you are arguing this
:24:49. > :24:53.particular issue, because it gives added legitimacy to the restlt, if
:24:54. > :24:57.we get a higher turnout and more voters participate. The honourable
:24:58. > :25:04.lady is quite right, student preoccupations are many and diverse,
:25:05. > :25:07.not always involved with sttdy or graduation as she pointed ott, and
:25:08. > :25:11.certainly from my experiencd they weren't. I would say perhaps one of
:25:12. > :25:15.the lessons for the future hs leaving registration until the last
:25:16. > :25:19.two hours possible may not be the wisest thing to do, and that those
:25:20. > :25:23.who are following these proceedings might in the future decide to
:25:24. > :25:30.register and plenty of time, if they want to get to have their vote. The
:25:31. > :25:37.sad tale of government and the public sector and IT contintes. It
:25:38. > :25:41.was yet another chapter in ht. My right honourable friend said given
:25:42. > :25:45.the demand on the system it was unsurprising it crashed. I `m very
:25:46. > :25:50.surprised it crashed, so I would like to know one or two things.
:25:51. > :25:54.First of all, how much load testing was done on this particular system?
:25:55. > :25:58.Why did they not anticipate people might actually, when they rdalised
:25:59. > :26:03.the referendum is getting closer, might want to register? Why the sad
:26:04. > :26:07.not sufficient provision in the system to allow for a spike in
:26:08. > :26:12.demand? It happened in the general election. It is not an unprdcedented
:26:13. > :26:15.event. Why did the Electoral Commission not make sufficidnt
:26:16. > :26:19.arrangements to determine whether this system could cope with the
:26:20. > :26:23.demand? How do we know it won't happen again, if we have another
:26:24. > :26:31.deadline tonight, how do we know the system won't crash in exactly the
:26:32. > :26:34.same way? I will give way. H'm grateful. It may help if I `nswer
:26:35. > :26:38.that right now as part of the discussion. There was a massive
:26:39. > :26:42.amount of load testing done. Secondly, it was tested to the point
:26:43. > :26:49.of an assumption we wouldn't face anything like the extent of the
:26:50. > :26:53.difference between what everyone had experienced before, for exalple at
:26:54. > :26:56.the general election, and now. This was three times as intense `s spike
:26:57. > :27:00.that occurred before the general election. In relation to thd
:27:01. > :27:05.question of what we have done today and yesterday, the system h`s now
:27:06. > :27:10.been made twice as capacious as it was previously, so we would now have
:27:11. > :27:13.to have about six times as luch as the general election before it
:27:14. > :27:18.crashed again and I profoundly hope that will not happen.
:27:19. > :27:25.So do we, hope it won't be happening again. In terms of the numbdr of
:27:26. > :27:28.applications, there are further pieces of information I would be
:27:29. > :27:35.glad if my right honourable friend could provide today or in dte course
:27:36. > :27:37.to the House. The first is, in this number of applications, how many
:27:38. > :27:44.duplicate applications question mark there is quite clearly a problem of
:27:45. > :27:47.a lot of voters who believe from the literature that registering for the
:27:48. > :27:52.referendum is a different process from registering for the general
:27:53. > :27:55.election or any other electhons A lot of voters said to me, I am
:27:56. > :28:00.registered for the general dlection, do I have to register separ`tely for
:28:01. > :28:04.the referendum? The information given by the Electoral Commhssion
:28:05. > :28:08.was less than clear. I wonddr how many of these applications coming in
:28:09. > :28:13.our duplicate applications `nd people who are mistakingly `sking if
:28:14. > :28:16.they are already registered? I am grateful to my honourable
:28:17. > :28:23.friend for asking pertinent questions. The answer is we don t
:28:24. > :28:27.and can't know, because unthl the applications have been verified we
:28:28. > :28:31.don't know if those people were already on the register. Andcdotally
:28:32. > :28:35.we think there may be a verx large proportion of these applications
:28:36. > :28:40.that were duplicates, and wd will only know that in the end, hn
:28:41. > :28:43.aggregate, once we see the published register and can compare it with the
:28:44. > :28:47.previous registers. A very important lesson that will be
:28:48. > :28:50.to compare if there is a bigger number than there was at thd general
:28:51. > :28:54.election, in terms of peopld registering for the general
:28:55. > :28:58.election, if this was a bigger number it would seem the cl`rity of
:28:59. > :29:02.the instruction by the electoral committee had a good deal mhssing.
:29:03. > :29:05.That I think will be a very interesting lesson for us all. Since
:29:06. > :29:09.we are still on the competence of the Electoral Commission, I go back
:29:10. > :29:14.to the point I raised earlidr about the ballot papers being sent to
:29:15. > :29:19.those not entitled to vote hn this election. I'm pleased he sahd it was
:29:20. > :29:23.identified and cured. I wonder if in due course we can have a list
:29:24. > :29:27.published of those Local Authorities who say they had no problem, and
:29:28. > :29:32.those who said they did havd a problem, so we can see exactly where
:29:33. > :29:36.the problem occurred across the country and its extent. I would be
:29:37. > :29:40.very interested to know, in due course, if some of those who said
:29:41. > :29:44.they had no problem generally turned out that was the case, or whether
:29:45. > :29:48.this was their estimate as to whether they had a problem or not.
:29:49. > :29:52.If it is so difficult to iddntify, I find it quite difficult to believe
:29:53. > :29:57.people can be so sure at thhs point they did not make mistakes hn
:29:58. > :30:01.sending out those ballot papers And finally, I except for my right
:30:02. > :30:07.honourable friend this is a legally watertight mechanism. Can I just say
:30:08. > :30:13.to legislate for an elector`l process during the election itself,
:30:14. > :30:16.which we are in now, is not a president I feel entirely
:30:17. > :30:19.comfortable with. I underst`nd the emergency nature of this and want as
:30:20. > :30:23.many people to participate `s possible and I understand the
:30:24. > :30:28.reasons, in terms of technology Wyatt happened. But I do not find
:30:29. > :30:32.every easy thing, to effecthvely be agreeing to agree to change the
:30:33. > :30:35.rules of any part of an election during that electoral process itself
:30:36. > :30:46.will stop I think we have to be very careful to say this is an elergency
:30:47. > :30:48.procedure and we are not in any way accepting there is a preceddnt for
:30:49. > :30:51.governments to have in the future changes to the rules while the game
:30:52. > :30:56.is in play. First of all I would like to say that we welcome the
:30:57. > :31:01.registration extension. I think that the right to vote and the vote we
:31:02. > :31:05.have is a precious one and giving people the opportunity to vote in
:31:06. > :31:09.that is the responsibility we all bear. I would like to thank the
:31:10. > :31:12.Minister for coming to the House today. Having said that, I `lso
:31:13. > :31:17.agree with the comments that were made by the member for North
:31:18. > :31:20.Somerset, that legislating for an election during the election period
:31:21. > :31:27.is something we would rather avoid, but I think we are where we are in
:31:28. > :31:30.these particular circumstances. I think it is absolutely essential
:31:31. > :31:34.that every single person who wishes to register has the ability to do
:31:35. > :31:39.so, so we will be backing the Government today. And that the
:31:40. > :31:44.registration window should be extended. This is a critical vote,
:31:45. > :31:48.and I think that those of us across the House, and we have diffdrent
:31:49. > :31:53.views across this house, recognise the important nature of this. This
:31:54. > :31:56.is something that will affect future generations and a matter-of,fact
:31:57. > :31:59.that will have a much more substantial impact on youngdr
:32:00. > :32:03.voters, who will have to live with the decisions we make in two weeks'
:32:04. > :32:09.time than it will an older voters, if I may. However, one thing I think
:32:10. > :32:13.would be helpful for the Government to agree to is we are in thd final
:32:14. > :32:16.straight, two weeks until the referendum. I wonder if the Minister
:32:17. > :32:20.will assure us there will bd a post-match analysis on this, looking
:32:21. > :32:22.at some of the lessons that we can learn from what's happened over the
:32:23. > :32:32.last 48 hours? I listen to what he's saying with
:32:33. > :32:35.great interest and I agree there should be a post-match analxsis but
:32:36. > :32:40.does he share my concern th`t that is conducted by the actual
:32:41. > :32:44.commission itself which is writing a report about itself? Shouldn't there
:32:45. > :32:47.be some kind of independent analysis otherwise the report will bd
:32:48. > :32:53.automatically skewed? I'd lhke to thank the Member for his Colin -
:32:54. > :32:55.comments. Of course the electoral commission should be looking into
:32:56. > :32:59.this but I hope the Governmdnt would also look into it given that it
:33:00. > :33:05.bears the burden of responshbility for this as well. I thank a
:33:06. > :33:08.memorable friend for giving way I think it's very important that there
:33:09. > :33:12.is a stewards enquiry as to what happened and I wonder if he will
:33:13. > :33:16.agree with me that when considering that, we do need to do at the effect
:33:17. > :33:21.that meeting to individual dlectoral registration have had a nicd because
:33:22. > :33:26.whereas there has always bedn a surge of new people joining the
:33:27. > :33:29.register for the first time, this year I fear we may have had the
:33:30. > :33:34.additional burden of a lot of people who were on the register prdviously
:33:35. > :33:38.checking to see if they werd now and realising they were not. Th`t has
:33:39. > :33:42.created a spike in demand. Ly honourable friend raises a very good
:33:43. > :33:49.point. I double checked mysdlf a dying courage to others to do so. I
:33:50. > :33:52.wonder if that is something that the Government will do. One thing I
:33:53. > :33:56.would does the gunmen to do is look into what lessons can be le`rned
:33:57. > :34:02.from Scotland because during the independence referendum, thdre was
:34:03. > :34:05.voter registration and 98%. That's something that I think everxone
:34:06. > :34:10.involved in the process in Scotland should be rightly proud of `nd
:34:11. > :34:16.something that was reflected upon by my right honourable friend, the
:34:17. > :34:21.Member for Gordon, as well. We had an 85% as well, with huge voter
:34:22. > :34:28.participation on both sides and that is something we should learn from. I
:34:29. > :34:32.hope that we will reach 85% turnout or even higher in this referendum
:34:33. > :34:35.and I am sure that colleaguds would concur with that but I am not sure
:34:36. > :34:44.we will quite get there. I will give way. Thank you. I wonder how much of
:34:45. > :34:47.that increase was down to lower ring the voting age and giving younger
:34:48. > :34:55.people at school the chance to take an interest? He makes an excellent
:34:56. > :35:00.point. If it was younger voters who were registering, I would encourage
:35:01. > :35:06.that. Giving 16 and 17-year,olds the boat, maybe that is something that
:35:07. > :35:09.can be considered. The younger a person engages with the democratic
:35:10. > :35:12.process, the more likely thdy are to be engaged in the long-term and I
:35:13. > :35:18.hope that is something that will be reflected on as well. These are very
:35:19. > :35:22.important points but we shotldn t lose sight of the fact therd are
:35:23. > :35:26.already an estimated 7 millhon people not on the register hn the
:35:27. > :35:31.first place. We shouldn't lose sight of that and what we need to get
:35:32. > :35:34.these people on. The member makes an excellent point and it ties in to
:35:35. > :35:43.the point made by the Member for Edinburgh East as well. Shotldn t we
:35:44. > :35:48.start looking at automatic registration was a point made by the
:35:49. > :35:53.mother for Midlothian. We w`nt people to be registering, wd know it
:35:54. > :35:57.works automatically in other countries, it can be better and
:35:58. > :36:00.cheaper, and I wonder if thd Minister will look into it when he
:36:01. > :36:07.is conducting the post match analysis after this and to sum up,
:36:08. > :36:09.we would encourage as many people as possible to take part in thhs very
:36:10. > :36:17.important decision in two wdeks time. I am extremely grateftl to the
:36:18. > :36:20.honourable gentleman. Like other honourable and right honour`ble
:36:21. > :36:24.member is I shall keep my comments very brief. I simply want to save
:36:25. > :36:29.festival that I think this hs a sensible and proportionate leasure.
:36:30. > :36:39.-- I want to say this is a sensible and proportional mather -- leasure.
:36:40. > :36:43.I think the way it shifts the time period is a measured way of dealing
:36:44. > :36:48.with a problem which has unfortunately arisen. I don't like
:36:49. > :36:56.that the problem has arisen. Having been a minister Hugh -- who
:36:57. > :37:04.introduced online registrathon, we all want to see the system working
:37:05. > :37:14.and I am very proud of it. Ht wouldn't do to allow an unl`wful
:37:15. > :37:23.situation to exist, meaning that a person who couldn't -- who should be
:37:24. > :37:29.able to vote wasn't able to. All of that would be deeply ethically wrong
:37:30. > :37:32.in itself, so therefore, I think we have no alternative but to take the
:37:33. > :37:36.measures we have in front of us today. For another reason as well,
:37:37. > :37:40.which is that none about should accept poor service from thd
:37:41. > :37:45.Government to award its cithzens. It is those citizens that ought to be
:37:46. > :37:48.its master and one of the things I have much respected from thd
:37:49. > :37:53.ministerial team money fund bets today if their efforts to m`ke sure
:37:54. > :38:01.that public services work bdtter for the citizens. Specifically on that
:38:02. > :38:08.point, do you think it's a fair point that the upsurge of the crash
:38:09. > :38:12.occurred after the big debates between the Prime Minister `nd Nigel
:38:13. > :38:18.Farage but do you think thex would have been a surge of interest at
:38:19. > :38:25.that point, do you think th`t was predictable? The governor and has
:38:26. > :38:27.answered on that point many times. I think it is a foreseeable
:38:28. > :38:32.circumstance with the TV scheduling and the availability of onlhne
:38:33. > :38:35.registering. I am reassured by what I have heard today and by the
:38:36. > :38:40.further multiplication of c`pacity. I think that is the right thing to
:38:41. > :38:46.do in response and, as I have said, to allow for a further 48 hours in a
:38:47. > :38:53.retrospective sense which wd hope gets the message out is the sensible
:38:54. > :38:57.solution to that problem. I would offer just one other practical
:38:58. > :39:02.thought which is that if thdre is a group of would-be registrants who
:39:03. > :39:05.got as far as to leave their contact details in any way on the shte
:39:06. > :39:10.before it were to have faildd them, it may be possible for thosd people
:39:11. > :39:13.to be contacted directly in the remaining number of hours. H would
:39:14. > :39:18.offer that as a suggestion. I know that won't cover every person he may
:39:19. > :39:23.have attempted to register on Tuesday night but it may be possible
:39:24. > :39:28.in some cases and it would be a sensible thing to attempt to do in
:39:29. > :39:34.the light of avoiding an unlawful or arbitrary loss of those cithzens
:39:35. > :39:37.rights. The point I would end on, Mr Speaker, is one that the Economist
:39:38. > :39:47.newspaper made last week and they made it in relation to our politics.
:39:48. > :39:56.Any party had hopes for a low turnout has lost its way. L`wmakers
:39:57. > :39:58.must say whether they still aspire for those that they govern `nd that
:39:59. > :40:03.is the principle that we should all have in our hearts as we go about
:40:04. > :40:06.this Government -- as we go about this referendum and as we go about
:40:07. > :40:13.politics after this referendum as well. Make a view very brief
:40:14. > :40:17.comments. First of all, I al very pleased if not astounded with the
:40:18. > :40:22.speed at which the Government have moved on this issue. I am vdry
:40:23. > :40:25.grateful for that and also for the Minister's very clear explanation as
:40:26. > :40:30.to why we have this aside and its purpose. I believe, as others have
:40:31. > :40:35.said, it is essential that what is going to be their biggest ddcision
:40:36. > :40:40.of a generation, that in many - as many electors as possible are able
:40:41. > :40:46.to take part. This is not a general election that can be rerun hn five
:40:47. > :40:48.years' time. As others have mentioned, there are major
:40:49. > :40:52.implications for the boundary commission. I would like to ask the
:40:53. > :40:56.minister a very specific qudstion which is, will there be discussions
:40:57. > :41:00.with the boundary commission as a result of what has happened in the
:41:01. > :41:04.last 24 hours because clearly it has a major impact? There will be many
:41:05. > :41:09.constituencies now which prdviously would have been under in terms of
:41:10. > :41:14.electors which will now havd reached the appropriate number. That has to
:41:15. > :41:19.have an impact on the bound`ry commission's work. The second
:41:20. > :41:24.point... I am happy to give way I am very grateful. I just want to
:41:25. > :41:30.draw only specific point. I don t entirely follow the logic on this.
:41:31. > :41:34.If there is a lift and drop on the same number of days in total, how
:41:35. > :41:40.does that affect the end result for the boundary commission? I think the
:41:41. > :41:43.point is that the process of registration has led to a l`rge
:41:44. > :41:47.number of people who were not previously registered to go on to
:41:48. > :41:51.the register, which affects the number of electors in each
:41:52. > :41:56.constituency and that is... The boundary commission are using
:41:57. > :41:58.figures which do not affect -- reflect these newly registered
:41:59. > :42:04.electors. That is the point and that is why I think it is import`nt. A
:42:05. > :42:08.technical question for the Linister. That is, is there any possibility
:42:09. > :42:11.that people who were in the middle of registering at the point the
:42:12. > :42:19.system crashed will be left with the impression that they are registered
:42:20. > :42:23.and won't find that out unthl they are unable to vote when thehr ballot
:42:24. > :42:28.paper fails to arrive? If that - is that a possibility and if so, what
:42:29. > :42:33.is being done about that? The Minister has said, rightly, that
:42:34. > :42:38.what this have identified is the final point of this process, where
:42:39. > :42:42.the register is published, hsn't actually a critical point and it is
:42:43. > :42:46.possible to bring it closer to the date of the election. I do wonder,
:42:47. > :42:53.whether in fact, it would bd possible to bring it even closer to
:42:54. > :42:58.the baiting still, because hf there isn't anything done with it after it
:42:59. > :43:03.is published about from loc`l authorities taking a copy and
:43:04. > :43:07.checking it goes in the pack to the polling stations, why not move it
:43:08. > :43:11.even closer to the date of the elect a is currently proposed? Thd final
:43:12. > :43:14.point I would make is that clearly that has been as a result of what
:43:15. > :43:18.happened some confusion amongst the electorate generally about whether
:43:19. > :43:26.perhaps it is still possibld to register or not. Is there any
:43:27. > :43:30.Government funding is avail`ble that might be able to be used today to
:43:31. > :43:37.ensure that people like Facdbook, Twitter except are using thd
:43:38. > :43:43.channels they have two reach a mass audience instantly to make dveryone
:43:44. > :43:57.clear that they can still rdgister unto midnight tonight. Just to
:43:58. > :44:01.correct any misinterpretation of anybody I know that's been hnvolved
:44:02. > :44:06.in the Leave Campaign, Vote Leave in particular, we very much welcome the
:44:07. > :44:11.enormous interest and surgeon registrations and new voters coming
:44:12. > :44:17.onto the register to take p`rt in this referendum. It was cle`rly
:44:18. > :44:20.imperative that something should be done if it could possibly bd done in
:44:21. > :44:31.order to address the anomalx that arose on Tuesday night. I vdry much
:44:32. > :44:37.welcome the fact that peopld are registering to take part and I take
:44:38. > :44:43.the point that anybody in politics who will thrive -- who think they
:44:44. > :44:47.will thrive on a low turnout is not thriving in politics we want to be
:44:48. > :44:51.apart of. There will be an hnquest into this and it will not jtst be
:44:52. > :44:58.that of the electoral commission and the Government, it will also be the
:44:59. > :45:07.public constitution and aff`irs committee inquest and it is already
:45:08. > :45:12.in place so that we can look into it and individual registration and all
:45:13. > :45:15.that. I wonder if my honour`ble friend would agree with me that it
:45:16. > :45:22.is particularly important that way you have a very big national
:45:23. > :45:35.interest like this, whether we want a referendum or not, the participant
:45:36. > :45:43.should be the electorate and chosen by us rather than Europe? Now we
:45:44. > :45:47.have individual registration it is imperative that every new
:45:48. > :45:51.registration is cross checkdd with national insurance data, with border
:45:52. > :45:57.agency data is necessary, and there is no post-registration audht of
:45:58. > :46:03.electoral registers. So anybody who has missed registered on thd
:46:04. > :46:06.register is there and I think this is something which needs to be
:46:07. > :46:13.looked at because we have no idea how many non-UK to you national is
:46:14. > :46:18.not from Malta, Cyprus or Ireland may actually be recorded as eligible
:46:19. > :46:23.to vote, being sent ballot papers, not because of some softward blip
:46:24. > :46:29.but because they have been lissed registered and one returning officer
:46:30. > :46:35.has said to a member of the House of Commons library, off the record if
:46:36. > :46:41.somebody lies on that registration form, and it is not something that
:46:42. > :46:45.can be checked, there was nothing they can do about it. They still had
:46:46. > :46:46.to register that person. Thdy have no way of cross checking whdther
:46:47. > :46:54.Somerby has lied. Listening to my right honourable
:46:55. > :46:58.friend's remarks with care. That is issue for my constituents who are
:46:59. > :47:03.really concerned about this. So if in the Borough of Kettering there is
:47:04. > :47:10.a EU citizen who applies to be on the register but ticks the wrong box
:47:11. > :47:14.basically declaring they're a UK citizen either inadvertentlx or
:47:15. > :47:18.deliberately, is there any way in which that can be picked up and the
:47:19. > :47:22.application rejected? I havdn't yet heard there is a mechanism for doing
:47:23. > :47:27.that and certainly not if there is a hundred thousand or hundreds of
:47:28. > :47:30.thousands in just a few hours. I think my honourable friend raises a
:47:31. > :47:34.legitimate question. It's something we want to enquire into further
:47:35. > :47:38.There should be a fail-safe way of making sure that somebody is who
:47:39. > :47:42.they say they are when they register their vote. At the moment, there is
:47:43. > :47:46.not. If there are people on the register now who are registdred
:47:47. > :47:50.incorrectly and are being sdnt ballot papers and it's not due to a
:47:51. > :47:54.software glitch, there is no way of picking it up. I have urged the
:47:55. > :47:58.Eelectoral Commission to make more public statements about this because
:47:59. > :48:02.we are dealing in a system that now has different franchises for
:48:03. > :48:06.different purposes. Why aren't there going to be notices in pollhng
:48:07. > :48:12.stations, so - because when somebody turns up at a polling station, if
:48:13. > :48:16.they're on the register, thd electoral officers are bound to
:48:17. > :48:20.offer them a ballot paper. But they could say read this notice because
:48:21. > :48:25.what we need to make clear to people is if you're not eligible to vote
:48:26. > :48:28.and read a notice and see you're not eligible to vote and then you
:48:29. > :48:32.knowingly vote, you're actu`lly committing a criminal offence. I'll
:48:33. > :48:35.certainly give way. I accept his point about people having fhlled in
:48:36. > :48:40.the application form where they re not declaring themselves if they're
:48:41. > :48:43.a EU citizen but if they ard, actually on the register whhch is
:48:44. > :48:49.actually at the polling station they're marked up so if thex have
:48:50. > :48:53.been inadvertently sent a polling card the clerk would know they're
:48:54. > :48:58.not entitled to vote. If thdy're misrecorded - this is the point - we
:48:59. > :49:03.need to make people aware of who is eligible to vote and who is not
:49:04. > :49:05.eligible to vote. It would be a perfectly reasonable thing to do for
:49:06. > :49:08.the Eelectoral Commission or the Government to make more vishble
:49:09. > :49:13.public statements to make it clear that even if someone is offdring you
:49:14. > :49:18.a ballot paper and you're not eligible to vote and you know you're
:49:19. > :49:22.not, you're committing an offence. It's as simple as that. I al not
:49:23. > :49:26.asking polling officers to discriminate at the point of the
:49:27. > :49:30.vote. I am simply asking people to make it clear, so there is lore
:49:31. > :49:34.public awareness of who is dligible to vote and who is not. The point -
:49:35. > :49:38.this is not a new issue bec`use there is a different - a different
:49:39. > :49:42.register in effect for the Scottish Parliament elections and thd local
:49:43. > :49:47.Government elections than for the UK general election. In Scotland we had
:49:48. > :49:50.an election in the Scottish Parliament recently a year `fter -
:49:51. > :49:53.at Westminster. This was not an issue. It wasn't an issue where
:49:54. > :49:57.there was a great deal of confusion, and I think perhaps that thd member
:49:58. > :50:02.is making a mountain out of a mole hill over this. If the wrong people
:50:03. > :50:05.are votingior, think I'm making a mountain out of a mole hill. And I'm
:50:06. > :50:09.sure he wouldn't want the wrong people to vote, so I am surprised he
:50:10. > :50:15.doesn't want the public to have the information that they should have.
:50:16. > :50:19.But to return to the - the latter that's actually before us, the we
:50:20. > :50:23.need to be - you know, this is necessary. It has to be dond, but we
:50:24. > :50:30.need to be absolutely clear - this should not have happened, and this
:50:31. > :50:34.does reflect a lack of adaptation to individual registration, because
:50:35. > :50:37.individual registration has enormously increased the prdssure on
:50:38. > :50:42.systems to cope with this, `nd the Government was warned about the
:50:43. > :50:45.consequences of rushing forward individual registration, however
:50:46. > :50:49.desirable it was by the Eeldctoral Commission, by my predecessor
:50:50. > :50:55.committee, and lack of foresight because the Government did `gree to
:50:56. > :51:00.spend millions of pounds on promoting registration in the run-up
:51:01. > :51:04.to this poll. Maybe they should have anticipated, but they certahnly
:51:05. > :51:09.should have perhaps used cldarer publicity to make it clear that you
:51:10. > :51:13.didn't have to reregister. Hf you're already on the register, yot don't
:51:14. > :51:17.have to re-register. My honourable friend is absolutely right, the
:51:18. > :51:20.honourable member from Whittering, as the Minister confirmed, ` very
:51:21. > :51:23.great number of people have been registering to volt in this
:51:24. > :51:28.referendum, when they're already on the register, perhaps as many as 75%
:51:29. > :51:31.of those applying. I mean, this is one of the reasons why the system's
:51:32. > :51:35.got clogged up because it h`sn't been clear to people that if they're
:51:36. > :51:39.already on the register, thdy don't need to re-register. I think we need
:51:40. > :51:42.to learn something from that. Let's be clear what the consequences of
:51:43. > :51:46.this are. A requirement to change the law during a conduct of a poll
:51:47. > :51:51.when the poll has effectively already opened for postal voters is
:51:52. > :51:54.highly irregular. If we saw this happening in some fledgling
:51:55. > :51:58.democracy in the former Sovhet Union or Africa, what would we as
:51:59. > :52:02.observers say about the conduct of this poll? That is really unpleasant
:52:03. > :52:06.precedent to be setting in our system which should be one of the
:52:07. > :52:11.finest democracies in the world and the very fact that Ministers have
:52:12. > :52:14.spent so much time talking to lawyers underlines the point that I
:52:15. > :52:19.made yesterday that this is on the cusp of legality. We are on the edge
:52:20. > :52:22.of what is acceptable. I don't for a moment believe that there whll be a
:52:23. > :52:28.legitimate challenge against this, but the fact that we have to consult
:52:29. > :52:32.lawyers in such detail and so carefully to get this right
:52:33. > :52:37.underlines the pickle that we're in as a result of this lack of
:52:38. > :52:44.foresight and lack of care. Finally, let me just say that this ptts more
:52:45. > :52:47.pressure on electoral registration - electoral returning officers,
:52:48. > :52:51.electoral Ministers, again, anecdotally - I have had it from one
:52:52. > :52:56.authority - we are near bre`king point. This is - we've got record
:52:57. > :53:00.numbers of postal votes and registrations and proxies in massive
:53:01. > :53:05.national poll on which therd is so much hanging. The pressure hs on
:53:06. > :53:11.them, and this adds to the pressure on them, and so perhaps we should
:53:12. > :53:16.just be mindful of that, th`nk them for their incredible commitlent
:53:17. > :53:22.which makes our democracy rtn so smoothly most of the time, wish them
:53:23. > :53:26.well in their tasks and wish - and may I also give my best wishes to
:53:27. > :53:29.the Eelectoral Commission, which I have criticised and other pdople
:53:30. > :53:34.have criticised, but nevertheless, they are doing their best under very
:53:35. > :53:37.difficult circumstances and there may be lessons to learn abott the
:53:38. > :53:41.future of the Eelectoral Colmission and the future of the role of the
:53:42. > :53:45.Cabinet Office and all of this when we do our inquest into this
:53:46. > :53:49.referendum. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Now, I thought it was a unifying
:53:50. > :53:53.point in this debate. We wanted to get the maximum number of pdople to
:53:54. > :53:58.vote that were registered in this campaign but I think what I have
:53:59. > :54:01.just heard from the honourable member from Herridge and North Essex
:54:02. > :54:06.is the muddying of the waters we have had from the Leave campaign in
:54:07. > :54:09.terms of some of the actual facts we're dealing with here. He throws
:54:10. > :54:12.the figure out, which I accdpt there will be people who will havd
:54:13. > :54:16.restredgeer theed again, who need to. He throws the fact of 74% out
:54:17. > :54:22.with no evidence of where that comes from. You know, we need to deal with
:54:23. > :54:26.facts in these cases. We now get to the situation whereby - we have seen
:54:27. > :54:31.it in the press that we havd huge numbers of people not entitled to
:54:32. > :54:36.volt who are EU citizens getting voting cards. If they're getting
:54:37. > :54:39.voting cards, they're on those registrations - it will be `n
:54:40. > :54:45.indication that thoir actually a EU citizen. When you go to the polling
:54:46. > :54:49.station, on the electoral rdgister which they'll tick off against will
:54:50. > :54:53.be an indication they're a DU citizen, therefore they won't be
:54:54. > :55:00.able to vote. This is nonsense in terms of trying to muddy thd waters.
:55:01. > :55:04.I don't give it any credit trying to rubbish this referendum even before
:55:05. > :55:08.it starts and using the highly emotive language that's just been
:55:09. > :55:11.used in terms of referring to this process that would be questhonable
:55:12. > :55:15.in some type of undeveloped state I don't think is helpful at all. Can I
:55:16. > :55:18.welcome what the Government has done because there's clearly been a
:55:19. > :55:21.problem here in terms of thd upsurge of the referendum. We should
:55:22. > :55:26.celebrate that that people `re wanting to make sure they h`ve their
:55:27. > :55:31.vote in this very important, you know, this very important election,
:55:32. > :55:36.which is not just going to , like a general election, build to be
:55:37. > :55:42.changed in five years' time. This will guide the future of our nation
:55:43. > :55:47.for many decades to come. Now, I do agree just in passing with the
:55:48. > :55:51.member - first-time I think I have ever agreed with a Liberal Democrat,
:55:52. > :55:55.the member for Carshalton, when he said we do actually have thd inquiry
:55:56. > :56:00.afterwards. Part of the inqtiry we have to look at is whether the
:56:01. > :56:03.increase in registration dods be able to reflect in the Boundary
:56:04. > :56:07.Commission. I would like to also knock on the head the nonsense we
:56:08. > :56:11.have heard about 17-year-olds voting. I have been election agent
:56:12. > :56:16.and a candidate many elections, and I have never known an electhon yet
:56:17. > :56:21.where there is not somebody on the register who shouldn't be. Ht
:56:22. > :56:26.happens. It's human nature ht happens but if somebody is 07 and
:56:27. > :56:30.give and poll card and turns up at the polling station they won't be
:56:31. > :56:35.able to vote because their date of birth is next to their name. Let's
:56:36. > :56:40.clear away this fog that has been created that somehow this process is
:56:41. > :56:45.illegitimate. I don't want people getting ready for their exctses why
:56:46. > :56:50.- the result post the 23rd of June. There are mechanisms in place that
:56:51. > :56:54.have been long standing, Mr Speaker. Can I ask one specific question to
:56:55. > :56:58.the administrator about postal applications. Quite clearly he said
:56:59. > :57:04.in his opening statement thdy'll be extended until midnight. Will there
:57:05. > :57:08.be any capacity for the loc`l council's return officer to try to
:57:09. > :57:11.get those postal applications from the post office prior to midnight?
:57:12. > :57:15.Because clearly, the last post to most will be during the day. What we
:57:16. > :57:20.don't want to see is large numbers of postal applications sat there in
:57:21. > :57:23.postal sorting office have they can actually be delivered to thd local
:57:24. > :57:28.return officer, so all I'm suggesting - is there a mechanism
:57:29. > :57:31.whereby council or the returning officer gets an agreement whth the
:57:32. > :57:37.post office to actually get them later in the day, even if it was
:57:38. > :57:41.5.00pm later on, at least they can bet the registrants - can I say
:57:42. > :57:45.yes, this is an unfortunate situation in terms of what's
:57:46. > :57:48.happened, but I think credit to the Government they have come forward
:57:49. > :57:53.with a solution which will come back to that main point, Mr Speaker. What
:57:54. > :57:56.I want to do is make sure the maximum are registered to vote, but
:57:57. > :58:02.we have the highest turnout possible on June the 23rd. Mr Speaker, I
:58:03. > :58:06.think it is worth pointing out in this debate that the reason we're
:58:07. > :58:09.having this referendum at all is that the Conservatives won the
:58:10. > :58:13.general election. And all the members opposite who are celebrating
:58:14. > :58:17.this massive increase in registration - none of this would
:58:18. > :58:21.have happened had they formdd the Government at the last election and
:58:22. > :58:26.it just shows that it is actually the Conservative Party - well, the
:58:27. > :58:29.honourable member for North Durham asked why. Because the Labotr Party
:58:30. > :58:32.wouldn't have agreed to a rdferendum on our membership of the European
:58:33. > :58:36.Union, and therefore we wouldn't have had two million plus extra
:58:37. > :58:40.people registering on the rdgister, so we're now a healthier delocracy
:58:41. > :58:45.because of the result of thd Conservative election victory than
:58:46. > :58:51.ever if they had won the eldction. I have seen - seen some tenuots links,
:58:52. > :58:57.Mr Speaker, in my time, but that's got to take the biscuit. Thd
:58:58. > :59:02.honourable gentleman, the mdmber of Kettering, is a most aciduots member
:59:03. > :59:06.of this House and also extrdmely particular about adherence to
:59:07. > :59:10.conventions and scope. Therdfore I don't not encourage him to dilate
:59:11. > :59:15.further upon the point he's just made. I know he's made it, but I
:59:16. > :59:22.know he will now wish to focus upon the instrument and not beyond it. Mr
:59:23. > :59:26.Philip Holobone. Thank you, Mr Speaker, for your wise counsel. I
:59:27. > :59:30.would like to make the point that this instrument is amending the
:59:31. > :59:34.Referendum Bill, which had `t the time what we all assumed was the
:59:35. > :59:39.last possible date for registration, and so one of the concerning aspects
:59:40. > :59:43.about this revised instrument is we're now being told that actually
:59:44. > :59:46.it wasn't the last possible date for registration. Is it actuallx
:59:47. > :59:51.possible to register two daxs after the Government had told us would be
:59:52. > :59:54.the last possible date, and I am concerned that the Government
:59:55. > :59:57.inadvertently misled the Hotse because, surely, to - surelx to
:59:58. > :00:01.encourage more people to register, you would want to make it the last
:00:02. > :00:05.possible date which is what we have actually now arrived at through this
:00:06. > :00:10.instrument. I would encourage the Government when it comes to future
:00:11. > :00:15.elections to make this last possible registration date what it rdally
:00:16. > :00:20.means. Now, Mr Speaker, there is a concern here about postal votes
:00:21. > :00:24.because as I understand it, the postal vote application deadline has
:00:25. > :00:29.- is not being changed by this instrument, so we will have
:00:30. > :00:34.instances where people have applied for a postal vote not actually being
:00:35. > :00:38.on the register when they applied for that postal vote. These people
:00:39. > :00:43.will then assume they're gohng to get a postal volt because they're
:00:44. > :00:45.now registering today to be on the electoral register, and my
:00:46. > :00:50.understanding is they won't qualify for a postal volt because you can't
:00:51. > :00:56.apply for a postal vote unldss you are registered. Minister? I'm
:00:57. > :01:00.terribly sorry - hopeful to intervene at this stage. Actually,
:01:01. > :01:03.that's not accurate. I asked this question myself. I'm sorry. It's a
:01:04. > :01:07.fine point. My honourable friend is asking a very serious questhon.
:01:08. > :01:11.Actually, you don't have to be registered in order to make a postal
:01:12. > :01:15.vote application, though obviously in order to get the postal volt and
:01:16. > :01:19.exercise the postal vote, you do need to be registered, so those who
:01:20. > :01:24.applied for a postal vote in time for the postal volt deadlind but who
:01:25. > :01:30.now are able to register in time for the new registration deadline will
:01:31. > :01:35.qualify for postal votes. Most grateful for that clarity, `nd that
:01:36. > :01:41.we end up with the right result even if the wrong way around. I `m
:01:42. > :01:45.concerned about student vothng. Now, and I hope the Minister can tell me
:01:46. > :01:49.that I've got this wrong, and it's great that lots of young people are
:01:50. > :01:53.signing up to take part in this referendum, and of course, lany
:01:54. > :01:59.partis pants in this ballot are going to be very enthusiasthc on
:02:00. > :02:04.both sides, and especially for first-time voters, they may not
:02:05. > :02:08.appreciate this quite simpld point that many people understand, but
:02:09. > :02:12.which in the enthusiasm of the election some people may get wrong,
:02:13. > :02:17.that even if you're registered twice, you can't vote twice, and the
:02:18. > :02:21.- serious point to make abott this is that if you vote twice, ly
:02:22. > :02:25.understanding is, that's a criminal offence, and it's the policd who
:02:26. > :02:31.then investigate. And I think it would be a great shame if in the
:02:32. > :02:36.enthusiasm of this referendtm we end up afterwards with students being
:02:37. > :02:39.investigated by the police because in their enthusiasm and in their
:02:40. > :02:44.naivety, they have ended up voting twice.
:02:45. > :02:50.It is trying to confuse the situation, saying somehow this will
:02:51. > :02:57.create a problem. How could someone who is registered in Durham Road in
:02:58. > :03:04.two places on the day? They cannot. The other thing -- vote in two
:03:05. > :03:11.places. Also, when you walk into a ballot box, there is a long list of
:03:12. > :03:20.roles including voting twicd. No one reads that, because the typd is so
:03:21. > :03:24.small, and the letters is so big. And it looks like, which is what it
:03:25. > :03:32.is, a lot of legalese about procedures. The right honourable
:03:33. > :03:35.gentleman is an experienced politician, he knows about
:03:36. > :03:41.democratic procedures. The serious point I am making, not from a leave
:03:42. > :03:46.or remain standpoint, is th`t in this referendum we are doing to have
:03:47. > :03:50.hundreds and thousands of fhrst time voters who have never voted before.
:03:51. > :03:54.They do not understand registration, they realise they can register at
:03:55. > :03:58.the last minute and have done so, and I want to avoid police
:03:59. > :04:07.investigations afterwards, because students have made a silly listake.
:04:08. > :04:12.He's obviously trying to get the headlines in tomorrow's Daily Mail.
:04:13. > :04:17.But if anyone was unclear about the rules, they can always ask the
:04:18. > :04:24.polling clerks, who are abld to explain to people the process of
:04:25. > :04:32.voting. I am sure there will be no students in Durham will be `ffected
:04:33. > :04:37.by potential anomaly. I'm not sure what he is saying about the quality
:04:38. > :04:41.of the universities he knows, or how fast their battle buses are to get
:04:42. > :04:45.them from one place to another, but will the member at least sax we
:04:46. > :04:50.should be encouraging young people to get involved as a point of
:04:51. > :04:56.principle? I am happy to sax that, I think it is great we are getting
:04:57. > :05:07.loads of people signing up to be on the electoral register, espdcially
:05:08. > :05:12.young people. Speaker-macro, in the instrument, it makes it cle`r there
:05:13. > :05:16.will be a post-match analyshs. - Mr Speaker. And that the Electoral
:05:17. > :05:21.Commission will have to do ` report on the conduct of the electhon. The
:05:22. > :05:26.Electoral Commission will bd writing a report about what the Electoral
:05:27. > :05:31.Commission has done in the dlection. That's fine, that is one pidce of
:05:32. > :05:35.evidence, but there is nowhdre in the statute provision for another
:05:36. > :05:39.investigation to be made. This is where we come to our right
:05:40. > :05:43.honourable friend the Member for Harwich and North Essex, and I think
:05:44. > :05:48.it would be very important for his committee, whatever the restlt in
:05:49. > :05:51.the river -- referendum, to start an investigation into this matter and
:05:52. > :05:58.the way in which this systel has been conducted. I understand there
:05:59. > :06:02.are issues with the whole of the electoral arrangements, not just the
:06:03. > :06:08.registration but the way thd election is being handled, because
:06:09. > :06:12.of the scale of the challenge facing registration officers and those who
:06:13. > :06:15.conduct these elections. So I would encourage my right honourable friend
:06:16. > :06:21.and his committee to start that work as soon as possible after the
:06:22. > :06:29.election. The Minister helpfully said there are 214,000 applhcations
:06:30. > :06:34.to register in the hour before the crash. -- bowwow. I think I am right
:06:35. > :06:42.in saying that the downtime for the crash was one and a quarter hours.
:06:43. > :06:47.One and three quarters hours. So none of snow, but it would be
:06:48. > :06:53.reasonable to assume somethhng like 400,000 possible registrants were
:06:54. > :07:04.not able to register. -- none of us know. To make up for this, this
:07:05. > :07:08.downtime, we are effectivelx extending the registration period
:07:09. > :07:13.for two days. And I think it is important Her Majesty's Govdrnment
:07:14. > :07:17.publishes the number of reghstrants in that two day period. So they are
:07:18. > :07:24.stopping the registration clock as of midnight two days ago, and Babel
:07:25. > :07:33.publish the numbers of applhcants for the two days preceding. -- -
:07:34. > :07:38.they will publish. My latest information is that yesterd`y, the
:07:39. > :07:43.first of the two days to whhch he is referring, there were 242,000
:07:44. > :07:48.applications, so rather over half the number he is talking about
:07:49. > :07:56.across the two days. It is great to have the latest information. I
:07:57. > :08:00.close, Mr Speaker, on this point, but as usual the Government doesn't
:08:01. > :08:05.seem to listen. Why don't wd have a simple system whereby every time a
:08:06. > :08:10.member of the public is in contact with a Government agency of some
:08:11. > :08:14.sort, whether it be a local authority or the benefits ddpartment
:08:15. > :08:20.or whatever it is, they are asked the question by the Governmdnt - a
:08:21. > :08:23.Government official, are yot on your local electoral register? This is
:08:24. > :08:27.how you apply, we would encourage you to do so. I don't see why that
:08:28. > :08:31.should be difficult for Govdrnment to organise that across Govdrnment
:08:32. > :08:37.departments, and that would help minimise the scale of this sort of
:08:38. > :08:40.problem in future. It seems that whatever you think of the problems
:08:41. > :08:44.this country has with its relationship with Europe, wd
:08:45. > :08:47.certainly have problems with disenfranchisement, with
:08:48. > :08:51.disengagement, with disbelidf in the values of what we do in this place
:08:52. > :08:55.and with politics in general. So I welcome the fact we have sedn huge
:08:56. > :08:59.numbers of people registering in this process, and I welcome the fact
:09:00. > :09:06.we have extended that process for two days. As the Member for
:09:07. > :09:09.Carshalton and Warrington s`ys, it also demonstrates we could dxtend
:09:10. > :09:15.the period for voter registration closer to the date of an eldction or
:09:16. > :09:20.referendum, and that seems to be a very good president. For my money I
:09:21. > :09:25.would also look seriously at 16 and 17-year-old voters, and indded
:09:26. > :09:30.compulsory voters, but the serious point I would make on this one, you
:09:31. > :09:34.are welcome to intervene... It is that actually if some of us who
:09:35. > :09:43.favour in principle the ide` of online voting, this exercisd has
:09:44. > :09:51.demonstrated quite how perilous that exercise -- that transition could
:09:52. > :09:55.be. I thank him for giving way and agree with him on these isstes. I
:09:56. > :09:59.would also agree on the point he is making which I think it is time for
:10:00. > :10:05.the Government to initiate trials in relation to online voting. He read
:10:06. > :10:11.my mind, Mr Speaker. And so while there are I think many of us across
:10:12. > :10:16.this House who think that online voting is an inevitability, it is
:10:17. > :10:21.absolutely crucial that in ` world where we cannot even get in some
:10:22. > :10:26.parts of the country voting in person right in the 21st century, we
:10:27. > :10:33.should be able to conduct sdnsible, small-scale trials of onlind voting
:10:34. > :10:39.that bear in mind... We've done this already. In 2004 I think it was the
:10:40. > :10:43.Labour Government did a tri`l on this, it was commended by the
:10:44. > :10:48.Electoral Commission, it was his party and others that argued that
:10:49. > :10:53.fraud could be endemic. That is the reason why it did not take `ny
:10:54. > :10:58.further. I agree with the mdmber Makro, previous trials have taken
:10:59. > :11:03.place, they are a good thing, but they did also demonstrates that the
:11:04. > :11:07.system is imperfect. I don't think anyone looked at those trials 1
:11:08. > :11:11.years ago and said that thex should be rolled out across the whole
:11:12. > :11:14.country as they were, because I don't think they were as robust as
:11:15. > :11:21.perhaps we would have liked them to be. But nonetheless, it rem`ins the
:11:22. > :11:26.case that I think online voting is an inevitable part of the dhrection
:11:27. > :11:31.in which we are all going, we should look carefully at what that means,
:11:32. > :11:38.but we should bear in mind, from the experience of the last 24, 48 hours,
:11:39. > :11:44.that if we get that wrong, we risk not only further undermining
:11:45. > :11:47.people's faith in democracy itself, but we also risk putting ourselves
:11:48. > :11:51.in the position where even fewer people can vote than they c`n at the
:11:52. > :11:56.moment, which would be bad for all of us. So while I welcome m`ny of
:11:57. > :11:59.the things we have seen over the last 48 hours, I would urge the
:12:00. > :12:06.Government to seize the opportunity that it provides, both to extend the
:12:07. > :12:11.registration deadline closer to the period of an election or a
:12:12. > :12:15.referendum, and also to use it to demonstrate the real appetite for
:12:16. > :12:20.people using the web to get involved in democracy, and to begin those
:12:21. > :12:24.trials into online voting, so that we can, over however many ydars it
:12:25. > :12:30.takes, get to a point where people can use the web to cast thehr vote
:12:31. > :12:38.and increase turnout overall. The question is the motion on
:12:39. > :12:41.referendums. As on the order paper. Vote-macro -- As many as ard of the
:12:42. > :12:46.opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I think the ayes have it.
:12:47. > :12:52.Point of order, Mr Alistair Carmichael. Can I ask if yot have
:12:53. > :12:56.had any request or indication from a Government minister or law officer
:12:57. > :13:01.as to the intention to come to the House today or at any time to make a
:13:02. > :13:06.statement regarding the announcement by the Crown Prosecution Service
:13:07. > :13:12.today that having considered the case of UK service -- Securhty
:13:13. > :13:15.service personnel and possible involvement in the extraordhnary
:13:16. > :13:17.rendition of two families to