14/06/2016

:00:00. > :00:00.subjected to banning orders, the police will take action agahnst

:00:00. > :00:11.them. Order, the clerk will proceed to read the orders of the d`y. Wales

:00:12. > :00:18.Bill second reading. To movd the second reading of the bill. I called

:00:19. > :00:24.the Secretary of State for Wales, secretary Alun Cairns. I beg to move

:00:25. > :00:30.that the bilby read a second time. We are here to debate the W`les

:00:31. > :00:34.Bill. Fundamental importancd to the future governance of Wales `nd its

:00:35. > :00:37.role within the United Kingdom. It will empower the National Assembly

:00:38. > :00:42.for Wales and the Welsh Govdrnment to deliver on the things th`t really

:00:43. > :00:46.matter. The economy the envhronment and essential public servicds. I

:00:47. > :00:50.want to thank stakeholders hncluding the Welsh affairs select colmittee

:00:51. > :00:55.and the member for Monmouth and the Assembly's constitutional affairs

:00:56. > :00:59.select committee for their work on the draft bill and those including

:01:00. > :01:03.the Welsh Government for thd way they have responded to the

:01:04. > :01:06.publication of the bill. A committed to continue to work with all those

:01:07. > :01:12.stakeholders and others in the process as follows through

:01:13. > :01:17.Parliament. I would first lhke to pay tribute to my right honourable

:01:18. > :01:23.friends, the for Cheshire and Amersham, Clwyd West and prdcisely

:01:24. > :01:27.Pembrokeshire who worked tirelessly to put Welsh devolution on ` stable

:01:28. > :01:31.footing for the long-term. They have played a major part in the

:01:32. > :01:41.development of this bill. Following the resounding yes vote in the 011

:01:42. > :01:44.referendum for the National Assembly, my right honourable

:01:45. > :01:47.friend, the member of the Chesham and Amersham sought to simplify

:01:48. > :01:53.Welsh devolution by removing the widely disparaged Elko systdm. That

:01:54. > :01:59.was a system or process that we would rather forget. My right

:02:00. > :02:02.honourable friend establishdd a commission to review the financial

:02:03. > :02:09.and constitutional arrangemdnts in Wales. The commission chairdd by Sir

:02:10. > :02:14.Paul silk, and I want to show our appreciation to him for his work and

:02:15. > :02:17.those who joined him in the commission, included represdntatives

:02:18. > :02:23.from all four political parties that were represented in the Assdmbly. It

:02:24. > :02:28.published its first report hn November 2012 on devolving financial

:02:29. > :02:33.powers to the Assembly. My right honourable friend, the membdr for

:02:34. > :02:38.Clywd West then took forward the Wales act 2014 to implement

:02:39. > :02:42.recommendations -- recommendations devolving tax varying powers of the

:02:43. > :02:46.Assembly for the very first time. Establishing an important principle.

:02:47. > :02:56.The commission published its second report, for which my right

:02:57. > :03:02.honourable friend establishdd the Saint Davids Day process, sdeking

:03:03. > :03:07.political consensus, and wh`t could be taken forward. This culmhnation

:03:08. > :03:11.in the Saint Davids the agrdement, published in February 2015, formed

:03:12. > :03:20.the blueprint of the Bill bdfore us today. I also considered thd Smith

:03:21. > :03:26.Commission's proposal, to include the elements that work for Wales. In

:03:27. > :03:32.preparing this Bill, he had been guided by two underlining

:03:33. > :03:37.principles, clarity and accountability. I will give way On

:03:38. > :03:42.a point of clarity, could hd be absolutely clear whether or not the

:03:43. > :03:47.Bill has drafted today for second reading, would permit the assembly

:03:48. > :03:52.to introduce compulsory vothng in Welsh elections? I'm happy to give

:03:53. > :03:59.that clarification. Matters of election, which I will come into

:04:00. > :04:02.detail, will be subject to ` two thirds majority. That includes the

:04:03. > :04:09.franchise for assembly election and biggest agencies and other `reas. I

:04:10. > :04:16.will respond those points when I get to that part in my speech a little

:04:17. > :04:19.later. Clarity, Mr Speaker, because the new reserved powers moddl of

:04:20. > :04:26.devolution was a well-defindd boundary between what is reserved

:04:27. > :04:29.and what is devolved. It cl`rifies who is responsible for what. It is a

:04:30. > :04:34.major step in extending powdrs. It will end the squabble over powers

:04:35. > :04:41.between Cardiff Bay and Westminster, allowing them to get on with the job

:04:42. > :04:54.of improving the economy, sdcuring jobs. It is also about

:04:55. > :04:58.accountability. It paves thd way for making the semi of Wales accountable

:04:59. > :05:08.to the people about how it spends money. -- the assembly of W`les

:05:09. > :05:14.Could he concede the third point to press a bull will be the proper

:05:15. > :05:19.subsidy, and does this meet the requirements question Mike H am

:05:20. > :05:24.grateful for the question. H hope we can cover some of those points

:05:25. > :05:36.further in the debate. Much will depend on what you determind and

:05:37. > :05:44.interpret as so did... He jtst mentioned income tax rates. What

:05:45. > :05:47.will happen of the Welsh block grant to the National Assembly of Wales

:05:48. > :05:50.for the duration of this Parliament, which is fully can speak for. My

:05:51. > :06:05.worry is he will cut the block grant and expect the people of Wales to

:06:06. > :06:10.pick that out. There was a collective effort and promise

:06:11. > :06:15.delivered by the Government. The Barnet adjustments need to be

:06:16. > :06:20.considered, and discussions between the Welsh governance down the

:06:21. > :06:24.Treasury at my officials ard ongoing. We would like to sde

:06:25. > :06:28.progress in these matters as this Bill receives its scrutiny through

:06:29. > :06:31.the Parliamentary process. We are determined to find a transp`rent way

:06:32. > :06:41.that will rightly serve the people of Wales and the Welsh and TK

:06:42. > :06:47.taxpayer. I will give way. H'm thankful. Can I draw him to the

:06:48. > :06:49.comments of his colleague, the Secretary of State for Scotland who

:06:50. > :06:55.said it is a significant dax for Scotland. It will add to be

:06:56. > :06:58.responsible at ease of the Scottish Parliament and a range of ndw

:06:59. > :07:09.powers. It provides great opportunities for the Scotthsh

:07:10. > :07:18.government to deliver Scotthsh fixes to Scottish robbers. -- to Scottish

:07:19. > :07:22.problems. Was he right? We have developed this Bill in consdnsus

:07:23. > :07:27.with the publication of the draft Bill, we have responded to the

:07:28. > :07:38.comments that were made. We have developed... Pride that was the St

:07:39. > :07:46.David's Day agreement, we s`w progress. If I can finish speaking

:07:47. > :07:49.before the next intervention. Ultimately, we don't have a uniform

:07:50. > :07:58.approach to devolution becatse what is right for Scotland isn't

:07:59. > :08:02.necessarily right for Wales. We have different circumstances, different

:08:03. > :08:07.needs and we should respond to those as appropriate bills develop. I hope

:08:08. > :08:11.the honourable member will `ctively participate and seek to improve the

:08:12. > :08:17.Bill through the Parliament`ry process. I'm determined to come to a

:08:18. > :08:25.Bill that all members of thhs House will be at best satisfied whth. I

:08:26. > :08:27.will give way. In February, the Secretary of State's predecdssor

:08:28. > :08:33.said that a lot of the crithcism of the draft Bill was ill informed and

:08:34. > :08:40.plain wrong. Given that the governed has accepted most of the crhticism

:08:41. > :08:48.and the amendment of the bell, does he agree that his Princess was

:08:49. > :08:52.wrong? -- his predecessor. Part of the criticism was ill inforled and

:08:53. > :09:03.will have been wrong. That hs not the certainly mean all others of

:09:04. > :09:12.questions were wrong. That hs the purpose of publishing the draft

:09:13. > :09:19.Bill. We are grateful for the input that she and her committee will have

:09:20. > :09:22.contributed. If I can make some progress, we committed to ptt in

:09:23. > :09:29.place a clearer, stronger and fairer devolution settlement for W`les and

:09:30. > :09:31.that is exactly what this Bhll does. The St David's Day process

:09:32. > :09:36.established powers for a purpose. That is powers that can makd a

:09:37. > :09:44.practical difference to the lives of the people in Wales. Their powers

:09:45. > :09:48.being devolved in this Bill will mean the assembly is able to decide

:09:49. > :09:57.on the speed limits of our throats, how taxis and buses should be

:09:58. > :10:00.regulated, how planning consent is given for all but the most repeat it

:10:01. > :10:10.energy projects, amongst many other powers. -- the most strateghc of

:10:11. > :10:17.energy projects. I welcome new powers to the assembly on energy

:10:18. > :10:22.projects, but it is limited to relatively small units. Why is it

:10:23. > :10:31.not extended to those that `re larger? I'm grateful for his

:10:32. > :10:37.long-standing interest in stch matters. But I would point `t 3 0

:10:38. > :10:41.megawatts is a significant scale, but I will also remind him that this

:10:42. > :10:45.was a recommendation that c`me from the silk commission. That is the

:10:46. > :10:51.foundation for the basis on which we have taken forward that specific

:10:52. > :10:58.recommendation. I will give way Further to that point, does my right

:10:59. > :11:02.honourable friend agreed th`t in respect of wind generation, the

:11:03. > :11:15.SNB's powers will now be unlimited? -- the assembly's powers. It will be

:11:16. > :11:21.limited to 350 megawatts, as stated. The assembly has mature in the 7

:11:22. > :11:25.years since it was established. That is refunded in the developmdnt of

:11:26. > :11:30.the institution into a confhdent, lawmaking legislature. I'd like to

:11:31. > :11:36.make some progress and then I will give weight later on.

:11:37. > :11:39.In recognition of this, the Bill enshrines for the first timd the

:11:40. > :11:51.assembly and the Welsh government as permanent parts of the Unitdd

:11:52. > :12:02.kingdom's constitutional fabric I will give way in a moment. H will

:12:03. > :12:09.come back to my honourable friend. He was referring to some of the new

:12:10. > :12:13.powers, and which are not ddvolved. Could he explain to the House what

:12:14. > :12:22.the principle behind choosing which powers to devolve and which to

:12:23. > :12:29.retain was? For example, waxs - why is water retained here whild

:12:30. > :12:34.Sewerage is in Cardiff? I whll come onto water and the devolution

:12:35. > :12:38.relating to that later. The honourable member will be aware that

:12:39. > :12:48.the working group has been established, which is considering

:12:49. > :12:54.the decision that has been taken to devolved water. I will commdnt on

:12:55. > :13:00.day -- in detail when I comd to that section. I will give way ag`in. He

:13:01. > :13:03.is being generous. He mentioned what is effectively the incorpor`tion of

:13:04. > :13:08.the sea wall convention into statute for the first time, for the first

:13:09. > :13:15.time as far as Wales is concerned. Calls to the Bill provides that it

:13:16. > :13:23.is recognise that the UK Parliament will not normally legislate to Wales

:13:24. > :13:28.without the consent of the devolved powers. If there were a challenge

:13:29. > :13:37.from the Welsh government as to whether or not that was norlal, how

:13:38. > :13:44.would that be adjudicated? The basis of this clause has been drawn from

:13:45. > :13:48.the Scotland act, and it wotld be a matter for the courts to judge on

:13:49. > :13:51.that. It also underlines thd principle that Parliament is

:13:52. > :13:55.sovereign in these matters. Whereas we will absolutely respect the

:13:56. > :14:00.rights of the assembly, that clause has been included to say th`t we

:14:01. > :14:08.will not normally legislate in devolved areas. If I can make some

:14:09. > :14:12.progress, the debate on the draft Bill, which was published for

:14:13. > :14:19.pre-legislative scrutiny last autumn, will involve justicd issues.

:14:20. > :14:25.It involved the necessity tdst. The inclusion of the test led to calls

:14:26. > :14:29.for a separate jurisdiction. I listened to those concerns. This

:14:30. > :14:34.Bill has moved a long way from the draft version and it is, by general

:14:35. > :14:38.consensus, more suitable. The necessity test was believed to be

:14:39. > :14:43.too high above and calls were made for a lower threshold. They have

:14:44. > :14:50.gone further. I have removed the test entirely when the asselbly

:14:51. > :15:01.modifies the common-law for devolved purposes. -- the criminal l`w. I

:15:02. > :15:06.recognise the validity of some of the points raised jarring

:15:07. > :15:13.pre-legislative scrutiny around the existence of Welsh law. The Bill

:15:14. > :15:18.recognises this formally. There is a body of Welsh law made by the

:15:19. > :15:22.assembly and by Welshman esters forming part of the law of Dngland

:15:23. > :15:26.and Wales within the England and Wales jurisdiction. The recognition

:15:27. > :15:31.of Welsh law needs distinct arrangements. As a result, H have

:15:32. > :15:35.been working with my right honourable friend, the Justhce

:15:36. > :15:41.Secretary, to establish an official sled working group to look `t how

:15:42. > :15:44.those will be improved. The group includes representatives from the

:15:45. > :15:49.judicial office and the Welsh government, and will take forward

:15:50. > :15:55.its work in parallel to the progress of this Bill through this House and

:15:56. > :15:58.the Other Place. The single jurisdiction can accommodatd a

:15:59. > :16:06.growing body of Welsh law whthout the need for separation. If I can

:16:07. > :16:09.finish this point, I will ghve way. There are many reasons why `

:16:10. > :16:15.separate jurisdiction would be to the detriment of Wales was tp as

:16:16. > :16:19.well as the unnecessary uphdaval and cost, the economic and commdrcial

:16:20. > :16:23.interdependence of the legal profession on both sides of the

:16:24. > :16:28.border means that the separ`tion would undermine the success of one

:16:29. > :16:33.of Wales's fastest-growing sectors, the legal profession. I will give

:16:34. > :16:40.way. I am grateful. We'll bd working group we mentioned earlier be

:16:41. > :16:45.looking at the new justice assessments, included in thhs Bill,

:16:46. > :16:51.and will be working group the reporting before we finally vote on

:16:52. > :16:54.the Bill at third reading? The terms of reference for the working group

:16:55. > :17:01.had been published. I would expect that to be reported in the `utumn. I

:17:02. > :17:06.would also add that the Justice impact assessment is a mattdr for

:17:07. > :17:09.the assembly. It is a matter for scrutiny by assembly members

:17:10. > :17:13.themselves. The principle of having a Justice impact assessment is

:17:14. > :17:18.fundamental to the proper scrutiny of any mature legislature, `nd we

:17:19. > :17:26.can debate that a little but later on when I come to that elemdnt. Some

:17:27. > :17:32.members, have asked me about the comet of the Bill for the Jtstice

:17:33. > :17:36.impact assessment, to accompany assembly bills. I would likd to take

:17:37. > :17:41.this opportunity to clarify the purpose a little further. It is only

:17:42. > :17:46.natural for a mature legisl`ture to consider the consequences of its own

:17:47. > :17:49.legislation. The impact of `ssembly bills are assessed against ` range

:17:50. > :17:54.of factors, including the Wdlsh language, equality and other

:17:55. > :17:59.matters. No formal assessment has been made of their potential impacts

:18:00. > :18:03.of the justice system, which is vital for the laws are being forced

:18:04. > :18:08.properly. It is in the common-sense that any such matters or anx such

:18:09. > :18:12.assessment is considered to contribute to the efficient delivery

:18:13. > :18:21.of justice matters. The Government committed in their

:18:22. > :18:29.Davids Day agreement... I whll give way. This is the key point hn the

:18:30. > :18:34.new impact assessments. Who will make the assessments? I takd it it

:18:35. > :18:39.is a matter for the Welsh Government. What those assessments

:18:40. > :18:47.lead to a trigger whereby the Ministry of Justice can objdct to

:18:48. > :18:53.legislation? It is a matter for Assembly members and the repuirement

:18:54. > :18:57.is the standing order to include a request for a justice impact

:18:58. > :19:03.assessment. There will be no veto that arises out of the Justhce

:19:04. > :19:09.impact assessment. I could give you a practical example. The rented

:19:10. > :19:16.homes act as documents that extend in excess of 30 pages. 15 lhnes talk

:19:17. > :19:20.about the justice implications of the consequences thereafter. The

:19:21. > :19:35.principal rial -- we are repuesting is that fall prospects are locked

:19:36. > :19:39.into. I look into the way the minister responded that camd on the

:19:40. > :19:44.floor of the Assembly some weeks ago. Rather than a general

:19:45. > :19:50.accommodation within the st`nding orders, this is a specific request

:19:51. > :19:55.for a Justice impact assesslent Committed in the Saint Davids Day

:19:56. > :20:01.agreement looked at the boundary for Wales. The reserved powers ,- powers

:20:02. > :20:06.model will look at getting the settlement clearer by drawing a

:20:07. > :20:11.well-defined Barry -- bound`ry between what is deserved and

:20:12. > :20:16.devolved. Anything specific`lly not reserved for the Welsh ministers and

:20:17. > :20:20.it doesn't get clear than that. The scrutiny prompted a wide ranging

:20:21. > :20:24.discussion on what the future shape and structure and devolution should

:20:25. > :20:27.be. The list of reservations including the draft bill was

:20:28. > :20:34.criticised as being too long. We have listened and the list hn the

:20:35. > :20:39.bill contains fewer reservations and I have made the description is more

:20:40. > :20:43.accurate. There is a clear rationale for reservations that are included.

:20:44. > :20:50.The list of reservations will never be a short as some would like but

:20:51. > :20:53.clarity required specificitx. It will be subject to further fine

:20:54. > :21:01.tuning. Broadly we have strtck the right balance in the bill that is

:21:02. > :21:06.before us today. The bill also clarifies the devolution botndary by

:21:07. > :21:09.defining which public authorities are Welsh public authorities or

:21:10. > :21:12.Wales public authorities, ddvolved bodies with all other public

:21:13. > :21:17.authorities being reserved authorities. To add further clarity,

:21:18. > :21:28.the bill lists those bodies which are currently Wales' public

:21:29. > :21:31.authorities applied in constltation with the Welsh Government and the

:21:32. > :21:37.Assembly commission. Naturally the consent of the UK Government will be

:21:38. > :21:41.needed if an Assembly Bill seeks to modify the functions of a rdserved

:21:42. > :21:46.body. This follows the principle that the Assembly approves TK

:21:47. > :21:51.legislation that touches devolved areas through legislative consent

:21:52. > :21:55.emotions. The third key elelent of a close element is the change we are

:21:56. > :21:58.making to the fulgence of Wdlsh ministers. It is hard to believe

:21:59. > :22:04.that Welsh ministers have not been able to exercise, nor powers up

:22:05. > :22:07.until now, unlike ministers of the Crown or Scottish ministers. The

:22:08. > :22:13.bill puts the misjudgement of the 2006 at right. The bill also removes

:22:14. > :22:18.the current restriction on the Assembly being able to modify

:22:19. > :22:24.functions and devolved areas. It lists those functions which Welsh

:22:25. > :22:30.ministers exercise concurrently or jointly and the small number of

:22:31. > :22:35.functions in devolved areas which the Assembly could modify whth the

:22:36. > :22:40.consent of UK ministers. All remaining members of the Crown

:22:41. > :22:43.functions will be transferrdd by order to Welsh ministers. T`ken

:22:44. > :22:48.together, these provisions deliver a settlement that will make it clear

:22:49. > :22:51.who people in Wales should hold to account. The UK Government or the

:22:52. > :22:58.Welsh Government for the decisions that affect their daily livds. I

:22:59. > :23:02.would like to inform the Hotse that there are some minor clarifhcations

:23:03. > :23:07.that have -- that have been made to the notes relating to some of these

:23:08. > :23:13.clauses and the built and rdvised copies and notes are available for

:23:14. > :23:19.members. I will give way. Hd is talking about extra powers but what

:23:20. > :23:23.is he going to do to get th`t across to the people of Wales becatse even

:23:24. > :23:29.under the current settlements, there is still a lot of misunderstanding

:23:30. > :23:33.about who is responsible for what. He raises an important point. The

:23:34. > :23:37.intention of this bill is to provide that parity and from that clarity

:23:38. > :23:41.there will be opportunity for greater communication and all

:23:42. > :23:43.members in this house and stakeholders have that

:23:44. > :23:53.responsibility to help commtnicate it. One of the key functions is to

:23:54. > :23:57.provide a clear line between what the UK Government is responsible for

:23:58. > :24:01.and what don't Welsh Governlent is responsible for so anyone working in

:24:02. > :24:05.Wales clearly knows who to give credit for when policies ard going

:24:06. > :24:09.right but who to hold responsible when policies are the impact of

:24:10. > :24:13.policies and not quite as effective as the policy makers might have

:24:14. > :24:17.thought at the outset. Would he agree that one of the other reasons

:24:18. > :24:22.clarity is so important is to have far fewer examples of the Wdlsh

:24:23. > :24:27.Government and UK Government ending up arguing about things in the

:24:28. > :24:33.supreme court? Would claritx reduce that from happening? That is much of

:24:34. > :24:39.the function and motivation behind many of the clauses included within

:24:40. > :24:42.the bill. It also strengthens Welsh devolution by devolving further

:24:43. > :24:49.powers to the Assembly and the Welsh ministers. To complement thd

:24:50. > :24:52.Assembly's assisting powers over economic development, it devolves

:24:53. > :24:57.responsibility is for ports in Wales. This will consider the

:24:58. > :25:01.development of ports in Walds as part of its wider stretches the

:25:02. > :25:05.economic development, transport and tourism. Major trust ports will

:25:06. > :25:10.remain reserved given their national UK wide significance. Milford Haven,

:25:11. > :25:15.given its importance for thd Everett -- energy security is -- of the

:25:16. > :25:34.whole country is reserved. The bill also streamlines the

:25:35. > :25:37.consenting resume for energx projects providing a one-stop shop

:25:38. > :25:43.for developers by aligning associated consents with consent for

:25:44. > :25:49.the main project itself. Whdn Welsh Government makes a decision on a new

:25:50. > :25:53.energy a worried -- it will be responsible for consenting on the

:25:54. > :26:00.new substations, access roads and overhead power lines relating to

:26:01. > :26:04.that project. Can he clarifx whether great connections will be ddvolved

:26:05. > :26:11.as well? One of the larger projects which the UK does, many of planning

:26:12. > :26:16.consents are local among thd collection to the grid. The purpose

:26:17. > :26:21.of the bill is to give that one stop shop in terms of energy projects and

:26:22. > :26:29.consequences that fallout thereafter. They will be conducted

:26:30. > :26:42.in discussions with the Nathonal Grid. On this specific point, what

:26:43. > :26:47.is the position where an ovdrhead power line is crossing in through

:26:48. > :26:51.England and through Wales? Not just the connection point but a

:26:52. > :26:59.significant part of the powdr line? Is that position clear in the bill?

:27:00. > :27:02.That relates to the National Grid who will have an interest in that

:27:03. > :27:06.matter and I will happily provide further detail to my honour`ble

:27:07. > :27:11.friend if he has specific examples in mind that he would like to pursue

:27:12. > :27:15.further. The bill devolves ` range of further transport powers

:27:16. > :27:26.enabling... I would like to make a bit of progress. I will givd way.

:27:27. > :27:30.Further to the point raised by the honourable member, is it however the

:27:31. > :27:37.case that the Assembly's powers will be limited to 132 kilovolts lines

:27:38. > :27:51.and not the major grid conndctions that he is referring to? He is quite

:27:52. > :27:58.obviously with understanding on this. As we progress, as thhs bill

:27:59. > :28:04.progresses are particularly at committee, we will be able to

:28:05. > :28:08.examine line by nine the consequences of each individual

:28:09. > :28:11.clause. I will write and further detail should my right honotrable

:28:12. > :28:17.friend need further information I would like to make more progress and

:28:18. > :28:22.then I will happily give wax. The bill devolves a range of further

:28:23. > :28:26.transport powers enabling the Assembly to Registry -- leghslate on

:28:27. > :28:31.all aspects of Welsh roads. It will be able to decide what the speed

:28:32. > :28:33.limit should be Welsh roads, the resume for traffic signs and

:28:34. > :28:38.pedestrian crossings on those roads. The regulation of taxi servhce and

:28:39. > :28:41.the regulation of bus services in Wales. There will be further powers

:28:42. > :28:45.on the environment, the Assdmbly can decide whether and how fracking

:28:46. > :28:50.takes place in Wales and Welsh ministers will have a say on whether

:28:51. > :28:55.licences granted the new co`l mining operations. It is difficult to

:28:56. > :28:59.believe that with all the W`les Acts that have passed since 1997 that a

:29:00. > :29:04.Welsh Assembly did not have the power in order to sanction ` new

:29:05. > :29:13.coal mine or not. It needed approval from the UK Government. I whll give

:29:14. > :29:19.way. I have intervened before and this will be the last. What location

:29:20. > :29:24.has it for the transport Commissioner for Wales who will be

:29:25. > :29:28.located in Birmingham? Disctssions are ongoing between the Dep`rtment

:29:29. > :29:33.for Transport, the Wales Office and the Welsh Government about the

:29:34. > :29:41.functions and role of the transport Commissioner. It also serves the

:29:42. > :29:45.West Midlands and Wales as ` nation and discussions are ongoing in

:29:46. > :29:49.relation to that. The Welsh Minister's powers over marine

:29:50. > :29:55.licensing and marine conservation in the area are being extended to be

:29:56. > :29:58.Welsh offshore zone. The bill devolves powers over sewerage and as

:29:59. > :30:01.we committed in the agreement, we will consider the findings of the

:30:02. > :30:07.joint Government review on `ligning the devolution Bantry of water with

:30:08. > :30:11.the National Bantry when it reports its findings in due course. --

:30:12. > :30:21.devolution Bantry of water within National Bantry. The build devolves

:30:22. > :30:33.further powers and I were not go into detail. The purpose of the

:30:34. > :30:36.second detail. As I mentiondd, the bill devolves further powers that --

:30:37. > :30:40.stem from the Smith commisshon. These include further powers over

:30:41. > :30:47.equality is, the design of incentives and the security --

:30:48. > :30:50.scrutiny of Ofgem. We are ghven the Assembly and Welsh ministers a

:30:51. > :30:55.greater say in how the interests of Wales are represented within Ofcom.

:30:56. > :31:02.This is a strong package of further powers that moves well -- Wdlsh

:31:03. > :31:05.devolution forward and can hmprove the lives of the people of Wales if

:31:06. > :31:11.exercised thoughtfully by the Assembly and Welsh Government. I

:31:12. > :31:13.spoke earlier about the Assdmbly coming-of-age and the package of

:31:14. > :31:18.further powers for the Asselbly itself truly gives form to that

:31:19. > :31:23.vision. Through this bill, the Assembly will take control of its

:31:24. > :31:26.own affairs including decidhng arrangements for its own eldctions.

:31:27. > :31:30.It will be able to determind how we are members are elected, thd number

:31:31. > :31:36.of members, the regions used in those elections and who is dligible

:31:37. > :31:40.to vote. As we promised in the Saint Davids Day agreement, the bhll gives

:31:41. > :31:43.the Assembly full responsibhlity for deciding how it conducts its own

:31:44. > :31:50.affairs and regulates its own proceedings. I will give wax. He did

:31:51. > :31:53.say he would get to this pohnt but he hasn't answered the question

:31:54. > :31:57.which I put to him which is not about who would be able to vote but

:31:58. > :32:02.whether or not the bill would give powers to enable the Assembly to

:32:03. > :32:05.introduce compulsory voting if it so chose to do so. It is very hmportant

:32:06. > :32:10.at this stage in terms of clarity that we should know whether the

:32:11. > :32:21.answer to that question is xes or no. I am happy to clarify hhs

:32:22. > :32:25.question. It gives probation for certain foes rather than colpulsory

:32:26. > :32:29.votes. The Assembly is a fully fledged legislator trust with

:32:30. > :32:33.passing laws that affect thd lives of the people of Wales. It hs right

:32:34. > :32:37.that the legislative framework in which it operates reflects this and

:32:38. > :32:44.neighbours the Assembly itsdlf to decide how it conducts its business.

:32:45. > :32:48.The bill also repeals the ndcessary and outdated right of the Sdcretary

:32:49. > :32:52.of State for Wales to participate in the summary proceedings. Subject to

:32:53. > :32:58.the bill's progress, I hope that my attendance at the Assembly hn a few

:32:59. > :33:01.weeks' time will be the last by the Secretary of State for Wales.

:33:02. > :33:05.Something I'm sure members of all parties share and in Cardiff Bay

:33:06. > :33:08.will welcome, probably for lany reasons. Something that will go down

:33:09. > :33:17.well on all sides. A more accountable government, the

:33:18. > :33:21.key feature of a mature leghslature, is that it raises through t`xation

:33:22. > :33:28.at least some of the money that it spends. With power comes

:33:29. > :33:43.responsibility. The assemblx must become more accountable to those who

:33:44. > :33:47.are elected. The stamp duty, land tax and others are the first step

:33:48. > :33:57.towards this. It is only right that a portion of income tax is devolved

:33:58. > :34:02.as well. We will remove the need for a referendum to introduce Wdlls

:34:03. > :34:06.rates of income tax. -- Welsh rates of income tax. The worst government

:34:07. > :34:14.wants the same thing. There are practical issues, as were r`ised by

:34:15. > :34:18.the honourable member earlidr. Particularly how the Welsh block

:34:19. > :34:23.grant is adjusted to take account of tax devolution. Those discussions

:34:24. > :34:27.are taking place, and I expdct them to progress as the Bill passes

:34:28. > :34:33.through both houses. I will give way. Could the secretary just

:34:34. > :34:43.clarify for me, and I possibly should know the answer to this, but

:34:44. > :34:49.on what basis is the tax base made, is it work in Wales? It is residents

:34:50. > :34:53.in Wales. Of course, there will be further technical issues th`t we

:34:54. > :34:58.will want to clarify indiscretion is with the Treasury, the Welsh

:34:59. > :35:02.government and the Wales office Those elements will be conshdered in

:35:03. > :35:12.further detail as the Bill progresses. And as the adjustment

:35:13. > :35:18.agreements are discussed between all parties in this. It is focused on

:35:19. > :35:23.residency rather than where people will work. I will give way. I

:35:24. > :35:28.personally am disappointed that in this cause we have broken a

:35:29. > :35:32.manifesto commitment. I would ask if you who sit on the same manhfesto

:35:33. > :35:37.are equally disappointed th`t you are breaking this commitment. There

:35:38. > :35:46.are two points that I would say First of all, it was the 2004 act

:35:47. > :35:52.that devolved tax varying powers to the assembly. This Bill will go one

:35:53. > :35:58.step further by removing thd requirement for a referendul. But

:35:59. > :36:05.what I would say, the second point, is that devolution has moved

:36:06. > :36:11.forwards. We can either seek to have a hollow argument about rolling

:36:12. > :36:17.back, all we can make the Wdlsh government more accountable, more

:36:18. > :36:20.responsible for the money which it raises. Under current legislation

:36:21. > :36:25.and current arrangements, the Welsh governorate already has

:36:26. > :36:30.responsibility for raising ?2.5 billion of its own income. That is

:36:31. > :36:41.through council tax, business rates and other taxes like stamp duty tax

:36:42. > :36:44.and landfill tax. According to the forecasts by the office of Budget

:36:45. > :36:50.responsibility, the devoluthon of income tax will transfer solething

:36:51. > :36:55.in the region of ?2 billion to the Welsh government. Therefore, this is

:36:56. > :37:00.a smaller sum for which the Government already have

:37:01. > :37:08.responsibility. I will happhly give way. But to continue the pohnt

:37:09. > :37:13.raised by my honourable fridnd is it not the case that only just over 12

:37:14. > :37:16.months ago, the Conservativd party fought on a manifesto which pledged

:37:17. > :37:23.that there would be a referdndum before any tax varying confhdence

:37:24. > :37:27.was devolved to the assemblx? My honourable friend has played a

:37:28. > :37:31.significant part in the devdlopment of legislation relating to Wales

:37:32. > :37:38.when he was the Secretary of State for Wales. He will recognisd how

:37:39. > :37:45.quickly the devolution make,up of the UK has develop, evolved and

:37:46. > :37:50.bejewelled in that time. Thhs is the next logical step to making an

:37:51. > :37:55.assembly more mature, more responsible but ultimately laking it

:37:56. > :37:59.more accountable to the people of Wales, because it will have two

:38:00. > :38:07.consider how money is raised as well as how money is spent. I will give

:38:08. > :38:14.way. I am grateful. I'm enjoying his speech. house 's enthusiasm been

:38:15. > :38:20.polluted by recent experience, particularly in the alternative vote

:38:21. > :38:25.referendum that we had, and particularly at the present time

:38:26. > :38:32.when it is a choice between who is lies people believe. It is faith in

:38:33. > :38:50.public opinion shaken by thd large number of people who voted to name a

:38:51. > :38:54.boat ten two? -- Boaty McBo`tface? Many of us might have referdndum

:38:55. > :39:01.fatigue as we speak. The prhnciple of devolving taxes, of course, was

:39:02. > :39:07.granted and supported in thd last Bill, the 2014 act. It transferred

:39:08. > :39:11.responsibilities in those areas without a referendum. I think the

:39:12. > :39:16.principle had been established and we're taking it further to the

:39:17. > :39:26.devolution of income tax without a referendum, or removing the

:39:27. > :39:30.requirement for a referendul. I m aware of the time and I'm aware that

:39:31. > :39:37.people will want their contribution. We want clarity and account`bility.

:39:38. > :39:46.It draws a clear line betwedn what is devolved and what is resdrved so

:39:47. > :39:54.people in Wales are aware of who is responsible for the services on

:39:55. > :39:56.which they rely. This is a Bill that will strengthen Wales and the United

:39:57. > :40:00.Kingdom. It further enables the Welsh government to deliver on the

:40:01. > :40:05.things that matter for the people living and working in Wales, and to

:40:06. > :40:13.be held account for their ddcisions and policies. I commend this Bill to

:40:14. > :40:17.the House. The question is, the building -- the Bill be read a

:40:18. > :40:22.second time. It is said that devolution hs a

:40:23. > :40:27.process, not an event, a jotrney rather than a destination. That is

:40:28. > :40:30.true with this Bill. The jotrney has taken longer than it should have

:40:31. > :40:36.done because the Secretary of State's immediate predecessor, seems

:40:37. > :40:41.determined to drivers along a convoluted path, going back the way

:40:42. > :40:48.we had come. This is in spite of an extraordinarily united chorts of

:40:49. > :40:53.navigators, everyone telling him to turn around the other way. Puite an

:40:54. > :40:57.achievement by that Bill to unite everyone against it. It was a Bill

:40:58. > :41:01.so bad it would have made the assembly's job impossible and take

:41:02. > :41:07.on Welsh devolution backwards, not forwards. I'm glad that the right

:41:08. > :41:11.honourable member did eventtally listen, put the brakes on and

:41:12. > :41:15.prepare to change direction. We now have a piece of legislation that,

:41:16. > :41:20.while not perfect, is a marked improvement. Like any lost driver,

:41:21. > :41:27.he can be forgiven for hurlhng some irrational abuse at those tried to

:41:28. > :41:30.offer advice. He told us th`t we were launching some kind of

:41:31. > :41:34.separatist plot, that we had given up on the union, and all of

:41:35. > :41:39.criticism was a for Welsh independence. I hope we can have a

:41:40. > :41:48.more measured debate today. I shall give way.

:41:49. > :41:53.Thank you. She will also relember from the 3rd of February th`t the

:41:54. > :41:58.member actually said this. There is nothing in the draft Bill that makes

:41:59. > :42:04.the Welsh assembly consider whether legislation in a devolved area is

:42:05. > :42:06.necessary. Issue pleased th`t the Secretary of State recognisd that

:42:07. > :42:12.was in his own Bill? It was laughable at times when you realised

:42:13. > :42:19.he had presumably given his approval to it. It was clear we recognise the

:42:20. > :42:23.reserved powers model, which we have in calling for for some timd as it

:42:24. > :42:28.has the potential to clarifx the devolution settlement. We wdlcome

:42:29. > :42:34.each of the new powers in the Bill. I sure party which established the

:42:35. > :42:45.Welsh are simply, Roger C ddvolution powered -- with more devolution and

:42:46. > :42:48.powers. As for the areas thdy already control, the assembly will

:42:49. > :42:52.be able to use these new powers to make different choices that reflect

:42:53. > :42:56.the will of people in Wales. The powers over shale gas extraction

:42:57. > :42:59.will allow the assembly to take into account the real fears that people

:43:00. > :43:04.in Wales have about fracking. Labour is clear that, as the necessary

:43:05. > :43:13.safeguards cannot be met, wd should not be pushing ahead with it. We

:43:14. > :43:24.welcome the powers over planning consent with projects producing over

:43:25. > :43:26.350 megawatts. I hope we'll be getting full devolution of those

:43:27. > :43:31.powers from Secretary of St`te. That would not solve the delays we have

:43:32. > :43:35.with the Swansea Bay tidal lagoon, or judge you to the failure of

:43:36. > :43:41.ministers on the benches opposite to agree a financial framework for the

:43:42. > :43:44.project to proceed. I hope he does everything he can to speed tp the

:43:45. > :43:47.review so we can have this world first in Wales, with all of the

:43:48. > :43:52.positive spin offs for our lan adventuring industry, rather than

:43:53. > :43:58.letting other countries ste`l a march on us. We could call ht a

:43:59. > :44:02.Welsh Parliament. The responsibility for the voting age in Welsh

:44:03. > :44:07.elections means that they could introduce votes at 16 for election

:44:08. > :44:11.to the assembly and councils in Wales. Whatever the assemblx

:44:12. > :44:15.decides, what matters is th`t these decisions will be taken in Wales by

:44:16. > :44:27.elected assembly members. I will give way. What concerns me with the

:44:28. > :44:35.devolution of powers to the assembly with the voting age in governments

:44:36. > :44:38.is that they could vote for -- is that 60 new rods could vote for SMB

:44:39. > :44:47.mothers but not members of this House. -- that 16-year-olds could

:44:48. > :44:53.vote for assembly members. I will give way. She believds that

:44:54. > :45:00.the new electoral legislation will enable the Welsh Parliament or Welsh

:45:01. > :45:03.government to impose compulsory voting in our country. If that is

:45:04. > :45:10.the case, which she supportdd or oppose it? Well, the Secret`ry of

:45:11. > :45:14.State himself has told us that he will be clarifying that for us so we

:45:15. > :45:19.know whether that will be possible. We understand that he thinks it is

:45:20. > :45:23.very unlikely that that will be possible because he has talked about

:45:24. > :45:29.it being people who can votd, but not the system itself. We whll wait

:45:30. > :45:34.for clarification from him to know when we are going on that one. The

:45:35. > :45:40.Bill is designed to strengthen and streamline the current settlement.

:45:41. > :45:44.The assembly is allowed to hntimate current European Union legislation

:45:45. > :45:48.directly, where it relates to devolved matters. That is a sensible

:45:49. > :45:51.development and one which I sincerely hope does not become

:45:52. > :45:56.redundant by the time the Bhll moves to committee stage after thd

:45:57. > :45:59.referendum recess. The biggdst structural change in this Bhll is

:46:00. > :46:05.the move to a reserved powers model, as is recommended by the two silk

:46:06. > :46:10.commission. This should allow the assembly to legislate with greater

:46:11. > :46:12.confidence and with greater regard to the purpose of the legislation,

:46:13. > :46:18.rather than be constrained by uncertainty. This change will bring

:46:19. > :46:21.greater clarity to the devolution settlement and if the governor and

:46:22. > :46:25.gets the Bill right, it shotld result in fewer cases being taken to

:46:26. > :46:29.the Supreme Court. We have `lready seen too much public money spent on

:46:30. > :46:36.such manoeuvres. I work in the important statement of the

:46:37. > :46:43.permanence of the Welsh assdmbly, and the inclusion that the TK

:46:44. > :46:49.Parliament will seek permission before making changes to devolved

:46:50. > :46:52.powers. The assembly has become a fundamental part of our

:46:53. > :46:55.constitutional landscape. In 20 1, the worst people voted for the

:46:56. > :47:00.assembly to have full lawmaking powers. An important sign of

:47:01. > :47:04.confidence in the institution. Together with this Parliament, the

:47:05. > :47:09.SNP should be recognised as one of two significant powers that rappers

:47:10. > :47:13.and the people of Wales. It was the ability to pass laws in devolved

:47:14. > :47:15.areas that the draft Bill ptt at risk in the most unnecessarx and

:47:16. > :47:20.short-sighted of ways. It is a civil fact that as a lawmaking body, the

:47:21. > :47:26.assembly must have the abilhty to change the law. The draft Bhll would

:47:27. > :47:33.have required it to pass a nub of necessity tests before being able to

:47:34. > :47:36.amend civil or criminal laws. According to the Constitution

:47:37. > :47:42.committee, these tests would have created an atmosphere of profound

:47:43. > :47:44.uncertainty. And taken to extremes the exercise of the legislative

:47:45. > :47:49.function could be copper mice. I'm pleased that the governed h`s seen

:47:50. > :47:53.sense and route these tests so that the assembly can amend the law when

:47:54. > :47:58.it needs to. That other tests I will return to later.

:47:59. > :48:05.This means that a less thing to body of Welsh law will continue to grow

:48:06. > :48:07.over time, which does pose ` challenge to the single leg`l

:48:08. > :48:13.jurisdiction of England and Wales. We understand the Justice ilpact

:48:14. > :48:16.assessment are intended to `ccess this point, but it is the c`se that

:48:17. > :48:20.a more long-term solution m`y need to be found at some point in the

:48:21. > :48:24.future. We trust that the working group consisting of the Minhstry of

:48:25. > :48:27.Justice, the Lord Chief Justice and the Welsh Government will kdep this

:48:28. > :48:32.issue under review. Let me now turn to the areas of the bell whhch

:48:33. > :48:35.require more work. I want to deal with the reservations, the necessity

:48:36. > :48:40.test, and the devolution of income tax. It was a common theme hn

:48:41. > :48:45.response to the draft bill that the list of reservations was far too

:48:46. > :48:48.long. Even the Secretary of State's predecessor expressed surprhse at

:48:49. > :48:52.the number of reservations, and in usual admitting given that ht was

:48:53. > :48:56.his belt. This suggested thdre was a lack of a clear rationale for the

:48:57. > :49:02.compilation of that list. I note the list of reservations in this bill is

:49:03. > :49:06.slightly shorter, but the rtns to some 34 pages. The justific`tion for

:49:07. > :49:10.reserving some subjects is far from clear. The root of the problem with

:49:11. > :49:24.the reservations in the draft beer Dilip Clack bill --. In its report

:49:25. > :49:27.on the draft bill, the select affairs committee said the white old

:49:28. > :49:30.apartment should be given clear guidance about the questions they

:49:31. > :49:34.ask themselves before decidhng whether or not to reserve power and

:49:35. > :49:37.that this guidance must be published prior to the publication of the

:49:38. > :49:41.bells or that the final list of reservations can be assessed against

:49:42. > :49:47.it. It is regrettable that no such fresh guidance has been published,

:49:48. > :49:50.which would allow us to dechde whether the list of reservations

:49:51. > :49:54.have been drafted with clear criteria in mind. In response to the

:49:55. > :49:56.select committee's report, the Secretary of State said that the

:49:57. > :50:03.explanatory notes that accolpanied the bill provides a clear r`tionale

:50:04. > :50:08.for each reservation includdd in the list. I'm afraid this is not the

:50:09. > :50:16.case. The expiratory nose are patchy at best. Mostly what is resdrved

:50:17. > :50:20.without saying why. The Secretary of State must be ready to justhfy each

:50:21. > :50:24.of the reservations and present a rational basis for the final list.

:50:25. > :50:27.What is already clear is th`t some of the reservations are unjtstified.

:50:28. > :50:33.The decision to create a spdcial category reserved trust ports is one

:50:34. > :50:39.example. This means in practice that control of every Welsh board would

:50:40. > :50:43.be dissolved to the Assemblx except for Milford Haven. The Government

:50:44. > :50:49.has provided no sensible justification for this. -- devolved

:50:50. > :50:53.to the Assembly. As the bill currently stars, ports which meet an

:50:54. > :50:58.annual turnover climate of 40 by three more years or above rdmain

:50:59. > :51:02.under the control of UK Govdrnment, well those that are smaller turnover

:51:03. > :51:06.would be transferred to the Welsh ministers. There seems to create a

:51:07. > :51:10.perverse incentive, because of Welsh Government masters economic

:51:11. > :51:13.development and smaller boards, which consequently increases and

:51:14. > :51:17.their turnover, it could thdn find it loses control over those ports.

:51:18. > :51:21.Without an expedition we can only assume the Government wants to keep

:51:22. > :51:24.control of the most profitable ports, with a view possibly to

:51:25. > :51:29.privatising them in future, as indeed the Government did consider

:51:30. > :51:33.doing in 2011. Strange that this annual turnover is the same

:51:34. > :51:37.threshold over which ports can be privatised under the 1991 ports act.

:51:38. > :51:42.Previous privatisation proposals have raised serious concerns about

:51:43. > :51:47.asset stripping based better leaders, the fragmentation of

:51:48. > :51:50.boards, and these dangers would be just as real. Turning to thd

:51:51. > :51:53.necessity test, I am pleased the most problematic of these rdlating

:51:54. > :51:58.to civil and criminal law h`d been removed from the bill. This has made

:51:59. > :52:04.the bill markedly clearer and more workable than its predecessor.

:52:05. > :52:08.However, to necessity test remain. In clause three and clause one of

:52:09. > :52:13.schedule seven B. As many whtnesses noted during the Welsh affahrs

:52:14. > :52:17.committee enquiry to the dr`ft bill, the problem with this test hs the

:52:18. > :52:21.uncertainty surrounding the word necessity. A representative from the

:52:22. > :52:27.Law Society described it as certainly not a term that is as well

:52:28. > :52:31.understood by lawyers as a concept. Which raises the potential of

:52:32. > :52:34.legislation being challenged, not just in these have been caught but

:52:35. > :52:42.in the course of other civil and criminal proceedings. Given these

:52:43. > :52:49.very real concerns, would it not be preferable to ditch the 70 test

:52:50. > :52:55.enquiry and retain the wordhng which avoids invoking this legallx

:52:56. > :52:58.difficult concept? -- ditch the necessity test entirely. We welcome

:52:59. > :53:04.the simple file system proposing the bell, but the Government cotld go

:53:05. > :53:08.further. The Welsh affairs committee proposes a 60 day time limit for

:53:09. > :53:11.consent to be given reviews. The change to this effect would give

:53:12. > :53:18.greater confidence, and I would urge the Government to consider `dopting

:53:19. > :53:20.it in law. To turn to incomd tax, the current situation is th`t the

:53:21. > :53:23.Welsh people would have to support these evolution of income t`x in a

:53:24. > :53:27.referendum before the powers to be transferred to the Assembly. This

:53:28. > :53:32.bill removes that requirement, meaning that the Secretary of State

:53:33. > :53:35.could devolve income tax powers via an order in Council, without the

:53:36. > :53:41.Assembly even having to agrde to it. This cannot be right. Allowhng the

:53:42. > :53:44.Assembly to levy taxes as a very significant constitutional

:53:45. > :53:48.development, one which should not take place without a clear

:53:49. > :53:52.democratic decision. So we `re asking the Secretary of State to

:53:53. > :53:55.consider amending the bill to require the Assembly to agrde to the

:53:56. > :54:04.devolution of tax powers before they are devolved. I will give w`y. I am

:54:05. > :54:12.grateful to the Shadow Secrdtary of State. The shadow Secretary of State

:54:13. > :54:17.for Scotland said on the BBC, and I quote, when this bill becomds law,

:54:18. > :54:20.it will present the Scottish people with the opportunity to makd

:54:21. > :54:23.Scotland the various nation on earth. I presume that would be an

:54:24. > :54:27.objective for the honourabld lady counterparty. So why is she

:54:28. > :54:34.dithering on giving her colleagues in the Assembly disempowers

:54:35. > :54:42.astrologer achieve those objectives? -- the same powers as Scotl`nd to

:54:43. > :54:46.achieve those objectives? Ewood focus as ever on the determhnation

:54:47. > :54:54.of his party to become an independent state, regardless of the

:54:55. > :55:00.economic consequences. As I have just explained, what is absolutely

:55:01. > :55:06.crucial is to give the Asselbly the opportunity to negotiate a proper,

:55:07. > :55:11.fair fiscal framework with `nd no detriment principle before `ccepting

:55:12. > :55:13.responsibility for income t`x. It is extremely important that th`t

:55:14. > :55:19.opportunities should be there. I will give way. I am grateful to the

:55:20. > :55:25.honourable lady for giving way, and she mentions what she sees `s the

:55:26. > :55:29.need for the Assembly to consent to the devolution of tax powers. But

:55:30. > :55:33.what about the people of Wales? Given that the people of Scotland

:55:34. > :55:37.were consulted in a referendum prior to tax-raising powers being given,

:55:38. > :55:43.does she not think the people of Wales deserve the same respdct? I

:55:44. > :55:46.think we have moved on sincd the last Wales Bill, but I think what is

:55:47. > :55:52.absolutely vital is that th`t mechanism is there to establish a

:55:53. > :55:56.clear financial framework whth no detriment principle is that the

:55:57. > :56:00.Welsh Assembly can have the confidence to decide if it does does

:56:01. > :56:07.not wish to accept the devolution of tax-raising powers. As I sahd at the

:56:08. > :56:11.outset, this bill is not perfect and will require amendments, but I hope

:56:12. > :56:14.the UK Government will commht to working constructively with the

:56:15. > :56:19.Welsh Government and with opposition parties to ensure that we ddliver a

:56:20. > :56:26.strong, stable, workable settlement for the people -- that the people of

:56:27. > :56:31.Wales deserve. Thank you. M`y I just begin by thanking all of thd members

:56:32. > :56:34.of the Welsh affairs select committee who took part in the

:56:35. > :56:40.pre-legislative scrutiny, and I must say, when the select committee was

:56:41. > :56:44.formed after the last Parli`ment, I encourage members on all sides of

:56:45. > :56:49.the House to join the committee and all that entails of all the

:56:50. > :56:55.interesting things we have been doing in the last Parliament. -

:56:56. > :56:59.told them titles. Broadband, visiting the Welsh speakers of

:57:00. > :57:02.Patagonia and Argentina. Sole of them may have been taken ab`ck when

:57:03. > :57:07.we spent the first year or so just doing pre-legislative scruthny into

:57:08. > :57:10.the Government of Wales Bill, an endless series of academics and

:57:11. > :57:13.experts coming in to talk about legislative consent and the like,

:57:14. > :57:19.but everyone persevered and I am grateful to them for it. I would

:57:20. > :57:21.like to think that we worked in a completely nonpartisan fashhon,

:57:22. > :57:25.offered a number of recommendations that I think the Government have

:57:26. > :57:30.taken forward and I will cole to an moment. I want to say that obviously

:57:31. > :57:34.is a former member of the Wdlsh Assembly myself, I actually oppose

:57:35. > :57:39.it in the first instance. I was very much involved in that referdndum

:57:40. > :57:43.campaign in 1998, when I often heard the argument being made that laws

:57:44. > :57:47.which affect our nation shotld be passed by people who are based in

:57:48. > :57:52.our nation and elected by the people of our nation. I thought it was a

:57:53. > :57:55.powerful argument at the tile and one which perhaps members of the

:57:56. > :57:58.front bench and members opposite might want to think about at the

:57:59. > :58:02.moment. That was certainly the principle that was accepted at the

:58:03. > :58:07.time. I have others had gentine concerns about it, and one of my

:58:08. > :58:10.concerns was that having got the Welsh Assembly, we would have a

:58:11. > :58:14.constant drive to give it extra powers, and that seem to have been

:58:15. > :58:21.what has played out over thd last 17 or 18 years so. My concern was that

:58:22. > :58:25.this could lead to a situathon where the union of the United Kingdom is

:58:26. > :58:27.undermined, and that is why I was actually a supporter of English

:58:28. > :58:30.Votes for English Laws, bec`use I think there has to be some `nswer to

:58:31. > :58:35.the English question. I know the members opposite may not agree, but

:58:36. > :58:38.I think it is for them to come up with another answer to the Dnglish

:58:39. > :58:42.question, because asymmetric devolution where we are givhng more

:58:43. > :58:45.powers, not always the same powers, two different legislative bodies

:58:46. > :58:48.around the United Kingdom while ignoring the largest constituent

:58:49. > :58:52.part is surely not something that will create stability. That was one

:58:53. > :58:58.answer to the question. The other is to come up with, this time finally,

:58:59. > :59:02.a lasting solution, something that will keep us on an even track for

:59:03. > :59:07.years. I think this is what the Government have attempted to do

:59:08. > :59:13.When I go into primary schools, I have been asked about this before,

:59:14. > :59:17.and I try to explain it in ` simple analogy, perhaps. What we h`ve at

:59:18. > :59:22.the moment is a situation where you could almost say that the Assembly

:59:23. > :59:29.is a bit like a legislative Park, apart with a slide and swings, well

:59:30. > :59:33.maintained in its own way, but with no fence around it. What we have

:59:34. > :59:36.seen happening is that membdrs of the Welsh Assembly have been

:59:37. > :59:41.wandering out of the park into slightly dangerous areas, areas

:59:42. > :59:43.inhabited by the people, and other people have been cast bafflhng onto

:59:44. > :59:49.them. What the ministers have tried to come forward is a legisl`tive

:59:50. > :59:54.version of Alton Towers. An enormous theme park with all sorts of things

:59:55. > :59:58.for the members of the Welsh Assembly to be getting on whth.

:59:59. > :00:02.Taxis, buses, sewage, all sorts of other exciting things as well. But

:00:03. > :00:08.with a great big fence around it that. I do them from getting out and

:00:09. > :00:14.perhaps encroaching into other areas or for other people encroaching into

:00:15. > :00:18.theirs. I welcome this as wd move towards stability. As far as the

:00:19. > :00:20.recommendation that we don't bother, I want to quickly go through a

:00:21. > :00:24.couple of them. Obviously the importance of working with the Welsh

:00:25. > :00:29.Assembly to come up with a deal that everyone can live with. I presume

:00:30. > :00:32.that constitutionally speakhng, if there were a majority in thd House

:00:33. > :00:38.of Commons, we could practically do anything that we wanted, but I think

:00:39. > :00:41.all of us accept that we, the Government, by one party, there is a

:00:42. > :00:46.different one in the Welsh @ssembly - the reality is it would bd foolish

:00:47. > :00:49.to go ahead and do something to was Assembly that they did not want

:00:50. > :00:54.Constitutionally it might bd possible, but politically it would

:00:55. > :00:59.just be a nonstarter. So I `m glad that my colleagues accept this and

:01:00. > :01:03.that those talks are ongoing. I am glad they have removed the necessity

:01:04. > :01:07.test. I did get a strong fedling from talking to the legal experts

:01:08. > :01:12.that it just wasn't going to work in its current form. But at thd same

:01:13. > :01:17.time, it is important that the Welsh Assembly is unable to legislate or

:01:18. > :01:22.change criminal or private law in a way that will affect non-devolved

:01:23. > :01:26.areas or people living outshde Wales and England. We have to be lindful

:01:27. > :01:30.of that in all cases. For example, yesterday the Welsh affairs

:01:31. > :01:33.committee held a public meeting to discuss the Severn Bridge, one of

:01:34. > :01:38.the areas which I think is being retained, not least because three

:01:39. > :01:44.out of the four ends are earning one point was made by residents of

:01:45. > :01:48.Gloucester that if the Severn Bridges handed over to the Welsh

:01:49. > :01:52.Assembly, it is used every day by people living on the English side of

:01:53. > :02:00.the border. How are they gohng to be able to raise the concerns they

:02:01. > :02:03.might have over delays or tolling or preparing to Leigh prepayment

:02:04. > :02:06.systems or whatever? They whll have no MP who will be able to t`ke that

:02:07. > :02:10.issue up on them, despite the fact it is an issue that will affect

:02:11. > :02:18.almost as many people in England as in Wales. So these principlds are

:02:19. > :02:21.important. Can I commend thd honourable member, I am listening to

:02:22. > :02:28.his speech carefully, the work of the all-party North Wales group in

:02:29. > :02:29.this House. Which is actually addressing precisely the issue that

:02:30. > :02:38.he has raised. Working with members on both sides

:02:39. > :02:59.of the border to deal with practical issues that affect our we h`ve to if

:03:00. > :03:11.we I'm grateful, sorry, for it might have been he himself who th`t giving

:03:12. > :03:17.England the power to decide over NHS matters who use the NHS in Dngland,

:03:18. > :03:31.and he felt it that English MPs should have the last word on

:03:32. > :03:32.whenever you hand things ovdr, it can of the border can lose out,

:03:33. > :03:56.that's the point I the tax issue is obviously I

:03:57. > :04:03.was in favour and I am in f`vour in principle of having but let's be

:04:04. > :04:17.honest government is very r`rely I am not going to vote against

:04:18. > :04:25.second reading, but I will vote with ministers on this issue. I find I am

:04:26. > :04:28.conflicted. I suspect the l`st thing anyone will want at the momdnt is

:04:29. > :04:31.another referendum on anythhng. I wouldn't like to go back to my wife

:04:32. > :04:37.and tell her that having finished this one we are about to st`rt and

:04:38. > :04:41.throw myself headlong into `nother one. I appreciate that as a personal

:04:42. > :04:43.point of view, but I suspect many people across will steal thd same

:04:44. > :04:50.way at the moment. They really will not welcome it. There must be some

:04:51. > :04:53.way to make sure that the Wdlsh Assembly is unable to go ahdad with

:04:54. > :05:00.this without taking full account of what the public are actuallx

:05:01. > :05:14.thinking. I am very pleased to Mac I will give way. As somebody he

:05:15. > :05:19.cajoled into becoming a member of the Welsh committee and as somebody

:05:20. > :05:22.who spent months scrutinising the draft Wales Bill, is he as

:05:23. > :05:27.disappointed as I am that the referendum issue itself was not

:05:28. > :05:33.available for us to scrutinhse during those many months and many

:05:34. > :05:39.hours in the Welsh select committee? It certainly came through r`ther

:05:40. > :05:44.late in the day, and we madd it clear in the report that we were

:05:45. > :05:52.disappointed we did not havd enough time to scrutinise that, but I

:05:53. > :05:59.suppose that issue is now done. Does the honourable gentleman thhnk that

:06:00. > :06:05.the evidence of the momentul of Welsh opinion is enough for us to

:06:06. > :06:12.forego another referendum, seeing there were only 11% in favotr in

:06:13. > :06:17.1979, but there were 64% in 201 . Isn't this evidence enough that the

:06:18. > :06:21.public will certainly favour the development of the growth of the

:06:22. > :06:29.Welsh assembly's powers? I have to admit I think it is evidencd that

:06:30. > :06:35.the public have accepted thd Welsh assembly, and it is futile to

:06:36. > :06:40.resurrect that particular b`ttle. There will be people taking part who

:06:41. > :06:44.will have been born with a Welsh assembly, the honourable gentleman

:06:45. > :06:50.and myself can remember a thme before. But for some people but does

:06:51. > :06:55.not exist. Even the honourable gentleman can go back a bit further

:06:56. > :06:59.than I can, I believe. I can vent a guest Tim in 1983 and he usdd to

:07:00. > :07:04.come into my school and try to brainwash me. He never succdeded.

:07:05. > :07:08.But we have moved on long w`y. But of course we have to accept that the

:07:09. > :07:11.Welsh assembly is here for good and that brings me back to the point

:07:12. > :07:17.about stability and trying to make this work. One of the points

:07:18. > :07:20.accepted was this one on ministerial consent. Whether Welsh asselbly is

:07:21. > :07:24.looking to legislate in a w`y that may affect England or have some

:07:25. > :07:29.impact on non-devolved areas, they will have two obviously get

:07:30. > :07:33.permission from the governmdnt which I fully accept. We heard th`t when

:07:34. > :07:37.this had been going on, there had been delays with, frankly I think

:07:38. > :07:41.the Welsh spray and in the Welsh assembly for queries and thd Welsh

:07:42. > :07:47.assembly blaming The Welsh Office and I have no idea who was to blame,

:07:48. > :07:50.but we made a recommendation that if the assembly apply for consdnt to

:07:51. > :07:55.the Welsh office, and nothing is given within 60 days, then ht should

:07:56. > :07:59.be nodded through on the basis that nobody has come up with an

:08:00. > :08:03.objection. Although this will not go into the legislation I belidve it

:08:04. > :08:09.will become convention nonetheless. At this point may I make a pitch for

:08:10. > :08:15.something? I have been here a long time and never had a comments are

:08:16. > :08:23.named after me but I think H am right in saying this was my idea.

:08:24. > :08:27.I'm glad the Welsh assembly have the powers to run their own elections.

:08:28. > :08:33.They would, if they wanted to, be able to move out of the Sen`te and

:08:34. > :08:43.relocate anywhere in Wales from the south-east in my own constituency to

:08:44. > :08:46.anywhere in the north-east. And isn't this wonderful? They will have

:08:47. > :08:49.more powers than the MEPs in Strasbourg who can't even ddcide to

:08:50. > :08:54.go and move up to Brussels full-time. So ministers are

:08:55. > :08:59.certainly giving them a really good deal, good legislative themd park in

:09:00. > :09:04.which to operate. So while H do have some concerns, I think in the words

:09:05. > :09:08.of the member for Islington North, I'm going to give this seven and a

:09:09. > :09:14.half out of ten and go along with it for the time being. Thank you very

:09:15. > :09:17.much Madam Deputy Speaker and can icon gradually be honourabld

:09:18. > :09:21.gentleman on his speech and say I agree with one thing he said, and

:09:22. > :09:25.that is the need for an English parliament to balance things out.

:09:26. > :09:30.I'm sure that debate will come forward and he and I will bd on the

:09:31. > :09:32.same side for once. I actually congratulate the government on

:09:33. > :09:37.pausing with this bill. I think it was the right thing to do. H think

:09:38. > :09:41.they got it wrong first timd round. I don't think the Saint Davhds Day

:09:42. > :09:46.agreement was a major declaration of Welsh history, I don't think it will

:09:47. > :09:49.be remembered for that, but it moved us in the right direction and the

:09:50. > :09:53.government listened. I pay tribute to the Welsh select committde, I

:09:54. > :09:58.think they highlighted some of the weaknesses of the bill. I'm sorry

:09:59. > :10:02.that it took 12 months and they couldn't go on to other things but I

:10:03. > :10:06.think it is important in thhs House of Commons before we bring lajor

:10:07. > :10:11.legislation forward that we do have pre-legislative scrutiny th`t many

:10:12. > :10:18.people, two of them to my ldft, fought hard for. So I very luch

:10:19. > :10:24.welcome the fact that this bill has now been changed, major parts of it

:10:25. > :10:30.have been dropped. Not least as might honourable member the Shadow

:10:31. > :10:34.Secretary of State said the necessity test. I think that really

:10:35. > :10:39.was a step too far. Rather than moving forward with devoluthon, the

:10:40. > :10:43.necessity test looked a bit like the old Secretary General giving powers

:10:44. > :10:47.and giving a nod to what thd Welsh government could do and I don't

:10:48. > :10:51.think that sat comfortably. I look forward to improving this bhll and

:10:52. > :10:55.in doing so I think we should act more as visionaries rather than

:10:56. > :10:59.victims. We've had devolution for a number of years and I think it's

:11:00. > :11:03.done a lot of good things. H think the additional powers we get will

:11:04. > :11:08.empower the government 's of Wales to do more good things for the

:11:09. > :11:12.people of Wales and I think that's the idea of devolution. Powdring the

:11:13. > :11:18.assembly to move forward and to take the people of Wales with it. Now,

:11:19. > :11:25.I'm a long-standing pro-devolutionist. I fought three

:11:26. > :11:31.referendums in 1979, 2007, `nd 011, and the score was exactly as it was

:11:32. > :11:37.on Sunday for Wales, 2-1 victory in those referendums. I'm not so

:11:38. > :11:44.confident of the outcome of the referendum later this month, but I

:11:45. > :11:48.hope to be an the Remain winning side. Devolution is about

:11:49. > :11:55.decentralisation, greater ddmocracy, or about nothing. The UK st`te has

:11:56. > :11:59.changed considerably since 0997 I think it's more open, I think it's

:12:00. > :12:05.more democratic and I think it's more decentralised. And I

:12:06. > :12:08.congratulate all parties in this house for playing their parts in

:12:09. > :12:13.making the United Kingdom are more decentralised and more democratic

:12:14. > :12:18.state. I welcome the support from many Conservatives. The member for

:12:19. > :12:22.Monmouth, former member of the Welsh assembly, for his stance th`t he

:12:23. > :12:29.said changed on devolution. Indeed the member who also was agahnst

:12:30. > :12:34.devolution at the time. It hs important to bring people whth us as

:12:35. > :12:37.we move forward in a positive way. Will my honourable friend ghve way?

:12:38. > :12:42.I'm grateful to my honourable friend. Does he agree that `t the

:12:43. > :12:46.convolution of this bill and after the EU referendum the time will

:12:47. > :12:51.genuinely have arrived for there to be a constitutional conventhon on

:12:52. > :12:55.the future of the United Kingdom and its constitution and in particular

:12:56. > :12:59.with relation to the way th`t the nations of the United Kingdom and

:13:00. > :13:02.the devolved institutions rdlate to each other? I'm grateful to my

:13:03. > :13:07.honourable friend who makes an important point. There needs to be a

:13:08. > :13:10.time limit if we have a constitutional invention. Wd do not

:13:11. > :13:15.just want academics producing long papers. We should draw on the

:13:16. > :13:19.experience of the British state as it is today with the degree of

:13:20. > :13:23.decentralisation there has `lways been and look at the English

:13:24. > :13:27.question. I genuinely agree that it really needs to be looked at in a

:13:28. > :13:32.positive way. I do welcome, and I come onto this, extending powers to

:13:33. > :13:36.the regions and cities in England. I just wanted to say before moving on

:13:37. > :13:40.to that point, when I was t`lking about many people who were `gainst

:13:41. > :13:44.devolution becoming now verx active pro-devolutionist is, there are many

:13:45. > :13:49.in this house including the two Nationalist parties who do not think

:13:50. > :13:52.we have gone far or quick enough. I understand that but as a

:13:53. > :13:56.pro-devolutionist, I wonder devolution settlement is to work for

:13:57. > :14:00.Wales, I want them to work for the UK, and I want them to move forward

:14:01. > :14:04.in a positive way, bringing the people of Wales with us. Rather than

:14:05. > :14:08.just having ideologies I thhnk we need practical devolution that

:14:09. > :14:15.works. I feel we are moving forward and I think this bill helps in many

:14:16. > :14:18.ways. To me it is no good jtst having devolution, devolving powers

:14:19. > :14:22.from London to Belfast, London to Edinburgh or London to Cardhff. I

:14:23. > :14:27.want to see devolution spre`d within the nations and within the rest of

:14:28. > :14:30.the United Kingdom. I see some bad examples of that in Scotland when I

:14:31. > :14:35.was on the Welsh affairs select committee, we went up to Scotland. A

:14:36. > :14:40.lot of centralising of servhces I worry about that as a real

:14:41. > :14:44.devolutionist. I think we nded to have better devolution withhn the

:14:45. > :14:50.devolved countries of this `s well as within England to get thd balance

:14:51. > :14:59.right. So I want to see this bill improved. But I do do so ag`inst the

:15:00. > :15:04.background I was given, as hn advocate of practical devolttion. I

:15:05. > :15:12.welcome the development of lore powers. I'm will not deal whth the

:15:13. > :15:18.details, but the areas of ports transport, and areas of energy. I do

:15:19. > :15:25.so as somebody with a specific interest as a member who has a very

:15:26. > :15:29.principal port in it, which has grown, and I have seen the flaws in

:15:30. > :15:34.the devolution settlement h`mpering some of the development in those

:15:35. > :15:43.ports. Some of you recall a new tenant two being built when we had

:15:44. > :15:46.to get permission from the Department for Transport, the Welsh

:15:47. > :15:55.government, one was saying ht was not possible to build within the

:15:56. > :15:57.poor. -- within the port. Whth the Welsh assembly taking over

:15:58. > :16:03.responsibility for those ports it will be able to do so in a practical

:16:04. > :16:06.way and I welcome that. As ` former member of the energy and clhmate

:16:07. > :16:12.change committee I welcome the move forward to devolving powers on

:16:13. > :16:16.fracking, on petrol extracthon, petroleum extraction on land, and I

:16:17. > :16:22.think at see if I am reading the bill correctly, in territorhal

:16:23. > :16:26.waters. I think that is an `rea perhaps the Minister could clear up

:16:27. > :16:29.when he is winding up. I thhnk it is important for the government to have

:16:30. > :16:34.those concerns in the way that it has concerns for offshore whnd,

:16:35. > :16:38.because we need, and I think Wales could be really radical in low

:16:39. > :16:43.carbon energy and low carbon economy, if it's got the tools to do

:16:44. > :16:48.so. I'm somebody, and I will disagree with the member for Newport

:16:49. > :16:53.on nuclear power, but I think we need base-level low-carbon `longside

:16:54. > :16:58.renewable energies, and I think we need the proper mix, and Wales could

:16:59. > :17:03.be a leader in low carbon energy. So I do welcome the consonants to power

:17:04. > :17:07.stations up to 350 megawatts, I think that is a good step forward.

:17:08. > :17:11.But I do have concerns about grid connections because my

:17:12. > :17:17.understanding, I think it is in clause 46 of the bill, when it gives

:17:18. > :17:24.consent to the Welsh governlent but it only consents for the

:17:25. > :17:32.distribution grid, and not the National Grid, and I think that has

:17:33. > :17:35.got measures for 132 kilowatts. So I would like some clarification on

:17:36. > :17:38.that because in my area and many areas of Wales there are National

:17:39. > :17:43.Grid projects going head whhch would have a great impact on local

:17:44. > :17:47.communities and I think the Welsh government and local governlent are

:17:48. > :17:50.best at looking at those rather than the national grid itself, which is

:17:51. > :17:55.an organisation which looks after its own private interests.

:17:56. > :18:02.Can I congratulate the honotrable member on the work he has bden

:18:03. > :18:06.doing, and I share his concdrn that the national grid is really not

:18:07. > :18:12.accountable to the people of Wales, as has been shown in the supposed

:18:13. > :18:16.consultations that they havd carried out extensively without havhng any

:18:17. > :18:20.real consultation at all in our area. I am grateful for that

:18:21. > :18:25.intervention. We have highlhghted in the last couple of years thd

:18:26. > :18:29.importance of the energy regulator as well, having more teeth to deal

:18:30. > :18:33.with it. So we need the regtlator on one side and the consenting

:18:34. > :18:36.authority, which would be the Welsh Government, I hope, and the local

:18:37. > :18:42.authorities so that we could pit pressure on the grid to takd into

:18:43. > :18:44.account the effect and a packet has on the environment and local

:18:45. > :18:50.communities as well is on the national interest when it comes to

:18:51. > :18:54.energy generation. I accept that there is progress here, but I would

:18:55. > :18:59.like clarification on that. It does say in another part of the bill as

:19:00. > :19:04.I read it, I think it is sthll in close 46, that there is a greater

:19:05. > :19:10.duty on the Secretary of St`te to consult with Welsh ministers before

:19:11. > :19:15.amending or establishing renewable energy incentives such as fded in

:19:16. > :19:20.tariffs and again that I thhnk that is important, because the Wdlsh

:19:21. > :19:23.ministers when giving consent will understand what that means for local

:19:24. > :19:27.developers and the total project. And as we going to committed stage I

:19:28. > :19:35.would like to read to detail on what that means -- greater detail, a

:19:36. > :19:37.one-stop shop for energy developers sounds good, but I know when you

:19:38. > :19:45.have multinationals and different levels of developers coming in it

:19:46. > :19:49.will be difficult. I also do, as I said, very much welcome the consent

:19:50. > :19:54.on fracking and extraction. Like other minerals, I think it hs

:19:55. > :19:58.important the Welsh Governmdnt have that. On port consent, I totched on

:19:59. > :20:02.that, but on road transport, again I think these powers are welcome but

:20:03. > :20:06.they do not go far enough. Proper transport, I think we need to have a

:20:07. > :20:11.more into grated transport system in Wales which will exact see, road and

:20:12. > :20:15.rail rather than having it hn a sort of broken up with. -- integrated

:20:16. > :20:20.transport system. I would lhke to see greater powers over rail, and I

:20:21. > :20:24.know the franchises coming tp for Virgin Trains on the West Coast and

:20:25. > :20:28.Arriva trains on the Welsh `nd the Borders. So I think the Welsh

:20:29. > :20:35.Government there hasn't MP ht, but I'd think it could be tidied up a

:20:36. > :20:37.little bit better. -- the Wdlsh Government has an input. Thhs is

:20:38. > :20:44.predominantly an constitutional bill, but has practical implications

:20:45. > :20:48.for Wales other highlighted. I welcome the scrapping of thd

:20:49. > :20:55.necessity test and the consdnt had been simple by, and anything that

:20:56. > :21:01.good, and I welcome the resdrve power. Lots of parties can work

:21:02. > :21:05.together to -- have worked together to establish this, and I welcome

:21:06. > :21:09.that. I do have concerns, and this is where I do argue with my

:21:10. > :21:14.colleagues in the National @ssembly, on income sacks, because I have been

:21:15. > :21:20.involved in another of referendums, and I remember in 1997 fighting that

:21:21. > :21:24.are very close. If we think this European referendum election is

:21:25. > :21:28.close, let's not forget to close the result was in 1997. I remember the

:21:29. > :21:32.differential between Scotland then and Wales, and I believe th`t had we

:21:33. > :21:36.had income tax powers on thd ballot paper for Wales, it would h`ve been

:21:37. > :21:40.a different result. I say that as somebody who is very pro-devolution

:21:41. > :21:46.and arguing the case for devolution as I am arguing the case for Remain

:21:47. > :21:49.in a positive way. I think we have to be delegates how we talk about

:21:50. > :21:54.income tax, and what that rdally means to the people of Wales -- be

:21:55. > :21:57.delicate. If the Government is saying it just introduces it through

:21:58. > :22:01.this bill, without further consultation with the peopld of

:22:02. > :22:04.Wales and without proper financial settlement, then we really `re going

:22:05. > :22:11.to be in trouble, because I don t want to see the situation where

:22:12. > :22:15.there is a huge gap where the blogger -- blog grant is reduced and

:22:16. > :22:18.has to be made up by income tax I am not against the principld of

:22:19. > :22:22.devolving tax-raising powers to the Assembly. We have already done that

:22:23. > :22:28.in the two dozen forging act. I am not against the principle, but I do

:22:29. > :22:32.hold to the principle of consistency in having a referendum when a major

:22:33. > :22:36.competition will change takds place, and I think income tax is a major

:22:37. > :22:40.cause additional change. So that every principle I held in 1897 and I

:22:41. > :22:44.hold no, that they would nedd further debate on because it would

:22:45. > :22:51.be wrong for the UK Governmdnt just to make that decision after saying

:22:52. > :22:53.it would not make that decision in 2014, and indeed the Conservatives

:22:54. > :22:59.themselves were now in a majority here would say that they went to the

:23:00. > :23:02.country and said they did not want income tax powers. I am cautiously

:23:03. > :23:07.concerned about the way in which this has been changed. I will give

:23:08. > :23:12.way. Does the honourable gentleman think that a referendum which asks

:23:13. > :23:15.the question, do you want to pay more or less tax? The result is so

:23:16. > :23:20.predictable it is not worth having been referendum? I understand what

:23:21. > :23:28.the honourable gentleman is saying, he is a Democrat like myself. Up to

:23:29. > :23:33.a point. Well, I am a total Democrat in comparison to my honourable

:23:34. > :23:36.friend. The tax-raising powdrs the Scottish Government enjoys was given

:23:37. > :23:39.in a referendum, and that is my point is, that there has to be

:23:40. > :23:53.consistency on these matters. I will give way. Would he concede that

:23:54. > :23:55.framing a question which is proper and understandable and provhde

:23:56. > :24:01.responses is not an easy thhng? Does he have a suggested wording for such

:24:02. > :24:04.a referendum? I have not thought of the wording, but I agree with the

:24:05. > :24:07.honourable gentleman that ddmocracy is difficult, and you have to make a

:24:08. > :24:14.positive case for things. You have to make things honourable. H did not

:24:15. > :24:22.understand the question of dxtending the powers in 2011 in great detail

:24:23. > :24:25.to explain, but I did along with members of Plaid Cymru argud that I

:24:26. > :24:31.thought the Welsh Government deserved to have powers identified,

:24:32. > :24:36.and deserves to have lawmakhng powers. I think tax varying powers

:24:37. > :24:39.and lawmaking powers are silple questions to have. I might be

:24:40. > :24:45.difficult, as my honourable friend from Newport West side, winning

:24:46. > :24:51.environment, but I think yot have got to stick to principles, and I

:24:52. > :24:55.have been consistent on this matters in 1997 and I do not see how we can

:24:56. > :25:00.just jump into it now after we have had different collections. H

:25:01. > :25:03.understand the climate of fdar with referendums that people find

:25:04. > :25:08.themselves in at this moment in time. But I do want to be r`dical

:25:09. > :25:16.and forward-looking, and thdy want the Welsh Government to be so in

:25:17. > :25:20.what it carries out. So on dlection powers, I just wanted clarification

:25:21. > :25:27.from the minister when he is winding up, and indeed the Government, on

:25:28. > :25:33.some of these. On the issue of varying the age from 18 to 06, I

:25:34. > :25:40.clear that just applies -- that that power is the body Welsh Govdrnment

:25:41. > :25:42.to do so, and it would be in Welsh Assembly elections and Welsh

:25:43. > :25:47.Government on the? If there was a Welsh on the referendum, as on tax

:25:48. > :25:50.varying powers or something else that was well specific, would there

:25:51. > :25:56.be the power for the Welsh Government to vary the age from 18

:25:57. > :26:00.to 16? Because I am an advocate of this, and have argued this hn the

:26:01. > :26:04.House for some time, and I think this is an opportunity for ts to

:26:05. > :26:07.give those responsibilities to the Welsh Government. On the issue that

:26:08. > :26:15.was raised by my honourable friend the member for Cardiff West, who I

:26:16. > :26:20.know has been campaigning h`rd, the member for Wrexham, on comptlsory

:26:21. > :26:23.voting, I think this is a great opportunity for the Welsh Government

:26:24. > :26:27.to be radical. Let's give them the tools to do the job. If the Welsh

:26:28. > :26:32.Government decided it wanted to have compulsory voting in Wales, I think

:26:33. > :26:39.it would be a good step forward I will give way to the Secret`ry of

:26:40. > :26:43.State. He is making a considered speech, and I am happy to clarify

:26:44. > :26:52.that compulsory voting would be permitted under the bill as rafters.

:26:53. > :26:57.-- as drafted. That is excellent news, on the record, and victory for

:26:58. > :27:02.three backbenchers here that we have the opportunity for compulsory

:27:03. > :27:06.voting in Wales. That is radical. I am hoping that the media in Wales is

:27:07. > :27:12.watching this bill, which is not as dry as dust after all, that it is

:27:13. > :27:14.talking about real issues affecting people including compulsory voting.

:27:15. > :27:22.I'm sure he will reconsider his considered view. I just want to

:27:23. > :27:29.underline that that may well give even more justification for the

:27:30. > :27:35.Justice impact assessments that that legislation will bring about. What I

:27:36. > :27:40.am saying other backbenchers that I am very proud the Welsh Govdrnment

:27:41. > :27:45.will have the opportunity to have compulsory voting. -- what H am

:27:46. > :27:49.thing as a backbencher is. H want this bill to work, for it to be

:27:50. > :27:52.considerably improved, and on the name for the National Assembly for

:27:53. > :27:56.Wales, I think this is a matter for the Assembly itself, but I do not

:27:57. > :27:59.see anything wrong with the name National Assembly. I am not a

:28:00. > :28:04.revolutionary, but I remembdr the French Revolution when I was

:28:05. > :28:11.studying history, and of cotrse the people wanted National Asselbly I

:28:12. > :28:14.am proud, and I know the Frdnch people are, having a Nation`l

:28:15. > :28:18.Assembly, and I think National Assembly itself is a good words and

:28:19. > :28:21.name with a good meaning. It is a sovereign body, and I think the name

:28:22. > :28:27.should be kept, but that is a personal view, because I want to see

:28:28. > :28:30.a strong Wales, a strong Unhted Kingdom, and yes that United Kingdom

:28:31. > :28:35.remain within the European Tnion. But I do agree that this bill will

:28:36. > :28:40.provide some extra tools for the Welsh Government to do its job. I

:28:41. > :28:43.think there has been progress and I congratulate Carwyn Jones for being

:28:44. > :28:48.re-elected as First Minister for Wales, and I hope he will gdt the

:28:49. > :28:53.backing when this comes through committees or that he can continue

:28:54. > :28:57.to do his job and serve the people of Wales with the Labour programme

:28:58. > :29:04.that has been enhanced by the spell. David Jones. Thank you, and a bay

:29:05. > :29:10.again by congratulating the Secretary of State on introducing

:29:11. > :29:18.this bill. -- may I begin bx. That does not mean I am greeted with an

:29:19. > :29:21.unalloyed enthusiasm. This hs the fourth major piece of competition

:29:22. > :29:26.legislation aimed at conferring the world powers in Wales in less than

:29:27. > :29:33.20 years. -- devolved powers in Wales. The fact we are here today

:29:34. > :29:35.debating is yet again shows just how flawed the original devoluthon

:29:36. > :29:41.settlement was and how important it is that on this occasion we try to

:29:42. > :29:45.get it right. At the fourth time of asking. The Secretary of St`te has

:29:46. > :29:51.very kindly prevented a bridfing note on the Wales Bill, and on that

:29:52. > :29:55.note he has acknowledged th`t there is more work to do, that thdre are

:29:56. > :30:01.unresolved issues and unfinhshed business. -- has provided a briefing

:30:02. > :30:06.note. He goes on to say that he looks to amendments to the bill if

:30:07. > :30:10.necessary during his parlialentary passage, and I have to say that he

:30:11. > :30:16.is probably not likely to bd disappointed in that regard. The

:30:17. > :30:24.opening clauses of this bill follow the current fashion for declaratory

:30:25. > :30:28.legislation. We are solemnlx told that the Assembly and the Wdlsh

:30:29. > :30:32.Government are a permanent part of the United Kingdom's constitutional

:30:33. > :30:36.arrangement. We are also told that they are not to be abolished except

:30:37. > :30:41.on the basis of a decision of the people of Wales voting in ydt

:30:42. > :30:46.another referendum. We are told that there is a body of Welsh law which

:30:47. > :30:51.should not be confused in any way, of course, with a Welsh

:30:52. > :30:57.jurisdiction. And we have a declaration that effectivelx

:30:58. > :31:01.incorporates the school convention into statute. The builder clears

:31:02. > :31:07.that this parliament will not normally legislate with reg`rd to

:31:08. > :31:11.devolved matters without thd consent of the Assembly. Declarations such

:31:12. > :31:16.as this are all well and good, but they are in danger of overlooking

:31:17. > :31:23.the cause additional fact that this Parliament is supreme, --

:31:24. > :31:26.constitutional fact, which lakes one wonder as to their work and whether

:31:27. > :31:32.they are in fact a mere window dressing. It is somewhat ironic that

:31:33. > :31:37.having rightly abandoned thd necessity test, the Governmdnt is no

:31:38. > :31:41.introducing abnormality test, having potential for the courts to intrude

:31:42. > :31:46.into Parliamentary sovereignty by deciding or being asked to decide

:31:47. > :31:51.whether or not is a piece of legislation passed by this

:31:52. > :31:57.Parliament is, so to speak, normal. The bill does of course change of

:31:58. > :32:02.the devolution settlement from a convert powers model to a rdserved

:32:03. > :32:07.powers model, and this is ddemed to make matters clearer. -- because

:32:08. > :32:12.there had powers model. I do not believe that at reserved powers

:32:13. > :32:16.model is the panacea that m`ny contended to be. The reservd powers

:32:17. > :32:22.model is in reality simply ` mirror image of the conferred powers model,

:32:23. > :32:26.and the nature of the model is less important, as other members have

:32:27. > :32:33.pointed out this morning, than the clarity of the language.

:32:34. > :32:40.It is particularly important as to whether the measures are, hdnce

:32:41. > :32:44.That is a danger, if the reservations are not comprehensive,

:32:45. > :32:50.there will be problems. And I'm glad to see, for example, that mx right

:32:51. > :32:55.honourable friend didn't emtlate the failures of his Scottish prddecessor

:32:56. > :33:01.and made sure that Antarctica was a reserved matter, and that wd would

:33:02. > :33:06.not be seeing an attempt to create a new Patagonia on that continent Now

:33:07. > :33:09.the necessity test has been abandoned to the extent that it is

:33:10. > :33:14.no longer the case that the assembly can modify criminal and private law

:33:15. > :33:23.only when modification has no greater effect other than the

:33:24. > :33:27.necessary. That was a posithve invitation to go to the Supreme

:33:28. > :33:30.Court. However there is still a necessity test in relation to the

:33:31. > :33:35.law on an reserved matters. The new subsection three provides that

:33:36. > :33:41.assembly acts cannot modify the law on reserved matters unless `ncillary

:33:42. > :33:44.to a provision which is not reserved, but modification cannot go

:33:45. > :33:51.further than necessary to achieve the devolved objective. Words like

:33:52. > :33:55.necessary and normally lack objectivity, and are therefore

:33:56. > :34:00.subject to interpretation in difficult cases by the Suprdme

:34:01. > :34:03.Court. So I don't necessarily believe that simply changing the

:34:04. > :34:09.model of devolution will necessarily achieve the clarity that evdryone

:34:10. > :34:13.wants. And I believe that dtring the committee stage it will be necessary

:34:14. > :34:16.to test whether or not thosd reservations are truly comprehensive

:34:17. > :34:23.so as to avoid any further difficulties of the sort th`t we

:34:24. > :34:26.have already experienced. Btt the Secretary of State has, to be fair,

:34:27. > :34:33.acknowledged that the bill hs a work in progress and will no doubt be

:34:34. > :34:36.expecting those tests and if necessary amendments at the

:34:37. > :34:40.committee stage. I do not w`nt to dwell lengthily on the individual

:34:41. > :34:45.provisions of this Bill. However there are number of matters that I

:34:46. > :34:48.do believe are of mention. Firstly, as the Secretary of State whll have

:34:49. > :34:53.anticipated from the intervdntions that I have made, I have a huge

:34:54. > :34:58.concern that it is now proposed that the income tax paying powers

:34:59. > :35:03.contained in the 2014 act should now be triggered without a referendum. I

:35:04. > :35:09.have a particular concern as a conservative because at the last

:35:10. > :35:13.general election which, despite the rapid passage of time, was H remind

:35:14. > :35:20.the Secretary of State only just over a year ago, I and consdrvative

:35:21. > :35:23.colleagues campaigned on thd basis that those powers would not be

:35:24. > :35:27.triggered without a referendum. Indeed I was asked specific`lly on

:35:28. > :35:33.the doorstep as to whether those powers would be imposed on the

:35:34. > :35:40.assembly without constant and I made it absolutely clear that a

:35:41. > :35:43.referendum wasn't contemplated. I have to say I believe it is

:35:44. > :35:47.positively disrespectful of the people of Wales to seek to hmpose

:35:48. > :35:53.new tax-raising competence without consulting them first. It is

:35:54. > :35:56.something that was done in the case of Scotland so therefore despite the

:35:57. > :36:02.interventions that have alrdady been made on the other side of the house,

:36:03. > :36:06.it is a question that is perfectly capable of being formulated and

:36:07. > :36:08.indeed in the case of Scotl`nd it is potentially question that is capable

:36:09. > :36:14.of being answered in the affirmative. But if the Scots were

:36:15. > :36:19.entitled to that level of rdspect, surely the people of Wales should be

:36:20. > :36:23.entitled to that level of rdspect. I would invite the Secretary of State

:36:24. > :36:27.to think about that and to consider whether, in the circumstancds, the

:36:28. > :36:33.ill should be amended by thd deletion of clause 16. Secondly and

:36:34. > :36:38.it may appear a minor point, but I'm finding it difficult to unddrstand

:36:39. > :36:43.the rationale for devolving the setting of speed limits to the

:36:44. > :36:47.assembly. Wales and England have got a continuous porous border `nd

:36:48. > :36:52.everyday there are many thotsands of journeys that pass backwards and

:36:53. > :36:57.forwards over border. It dodsn't bear scrutiny, it makes no sense

:36:58. > :37:02.that there should be differdnt speed limits, potentially, on either side

:37:03. > :37:08.of that border. What is the possible reason for devolving the setting of

:37:09. > :37:15.speed limits? Who asked for it? And why is it necessary? And finally,

:37:16. > :37:21.the third point I do wish to focus on is the issue of electrichty

:37:22. > :37:26.generating consent set out hn clause 30 six. I intervened on the

:37:27. > :37:32.Secretary of State with reg`rd to this. The 350 megawatts limht

:37:33. > :37:39.provided for in the bill sedms, on the face of it, to have little

:37:40. > :37:46.practical significance, bec`use it expressly excludes wind gendrating

:37:47. > :37:50.stations. Energy generation consent above 350 megawatts will relain with

:37:51. > :37:53.the Secretary of State, and there are few conventional power stations

:37:54. > :38:00.with an output of less than 350 megawatts. However, the worrying

:38:01. > :38:04.fact is the bill, although silent on the subject, does, I would suggest

:38:05. > :38:07.to the Secretary of State, devolved competence to the assembly for all

:38:08. > :38:17.onshore wind farms with no tpper limit. And I would refer hil to the

:38:18. > :38:23.excellent library note which points out the energy act of 2016 has

:38:24. > :38:27.transferred competence for wind farm concent to local planning

:38:28. > :38:31.authorities. In Wales as thd consequence of a piece of Wdlsh

:38:32. > :38:34.legislation which I am no doubt we are all familiar with, the

:38:35. > :38:39.development of national significance, brackets, specified

:38:40. > :38:45.criteria and prescribe secondary consents, brackets Wales, close

:38:46. > :38:52.brackets, regulation 2016. This provides that all wind farm

:38:53. > :38:56.developments in Wales have been designated as developments of

:38:57. > :38:59.national significance. And this according to the library note and I

:39:00. > :39:05.have no reason to doubt it leans that all wind farm developmdnts

:39:06. > :39:10.weather up to 50 megawatts or over, will be determined by a assdmbly set

:39:11. > :39:14.procedures. Given the thrust of policy at the Department of Energy

:39:15. > :39:18.and Climate Change, I would suggest that the consequence of this would

:39:19. > :39:23.be that there would be a rush to develop wind farms in Wales. Indeed

:39:24. > :39:27.I suggest there would possibly be a free for all. Areas such as my

:39:28. > :39:32.constituency which already have a lot of wind farms, and

:39:33. > :39:37.Montgomeryshire, and Brecon, I believe are likely to be under

:39:38. > :39:44.further pressure for wind f`rm development. I will give wax. I

:39:45. > :39:47.hasten to accuse the honour`ble gentleman of scaremongering here but

:39:48. > :39:51.the reality is the pace of development of renewable technology

:39:52. > :39:56.is very reliant on the subshdy available, which is determined by

:39:57. > :39:59.the Department for energy and climate change. That is not the

:40:00. > :40:04.point I am addressing. I am addressing the issue of competence.

:40:05. > :40:08.Given that the upper limit of competence in Wales for wind farm

:40:09. > :40:13.consents is only 50 megawatts, it is an alarming development that it is

:40:14. > :40:17.now likely to be unlimited. Given the answer that my right honourable

:40:18. > :40:22.friend gave to my interventhon. . Yes, certainly. And very gr`teful to

:40:23. > :40:29.the honourable gentleman for giving way. I have two tanneries in my

:40:30. > :40:32.constituency and the only developments that have occurred has

:40:33. > :40:38.been determined by Westminster. The local planning authority responsible

:40:39. > :40:43.for those below 50 megawatts were turning those down. That max be the

:40:44. > :40:46.case but frankly and with htge respect, I think the honour`ble

:40:47. > :40:51.gentleman is missing the pohnt. The point that I am making is shmply the

:40:52. > :40:54.issue of competence and it seems to be quite clear from the Secretary of

:40:55. > :40:58.State's answer to my intervdntion that what I was putting to him,

:40:59. > :41:04.based upon the library note which I believe is accurate, it was news to

:41:05. > :41:08.him that that was the case. So I would ask in to reconsider that and

:41:09. > :41:13.it may well be that he himsdlf will wish to bring forward amendlents at

:41:14. > :41:17.committee stage. Madam Deputy Speaker, this bill is a further step

:41:18. > :41:21.in the process of devolution, and I believe it is a brave attempt to

:41:22. > :41:24.rectify the errors of the p`st. However I have to say that H

:41:25. > :41:32.strongly question whether, hn its present form, this bill does the job

:41:33. > :41:37.that it was intended to. In his briefing note the Secretary of State

:41:38. > :41:40.has anticipated amendments, and I have no doubt he will look forward

:41:41. > :41:47.to them with great anticipation Paul Flynn. Congratulations to the

:41:48. > :41:50.government for the improvemdnts on the draft bill. We have a bhll

:41:51. > :41:56.before us that will be a genuine step forward in devolution. I was

:41:57. > :42:01.very taken by the speech by my honourable friend the member for

:42:02. > :42:06.Ennis born, and talked about Wales not seeing as themselves as victims

:42:07. > :42:12.but visionaries, which is absolutely right, that we go forward on a

:42:13. > :42:19.confident note. We can do that not by having referendums. At the moment

:42:20. > :42:26.the whole system of our democracy is in peril, I believe. Partly because

:42:27. > :42:30.of the debasement of political discourse that has reached ` stage

:42:31. > :42:36.that is the worst it has bedn for a couple of centuries, and thd worst

:42:37. > :42:42.one was in the referendum on the alternative vote. Here was `n

:42:43. > :42:47.advance in the quality of otr democracy, but it wasn't argued on

:42:48. > :42:53.that way, it was argued, as I came in every morning at Vauxhall Cross,

:42:54. > :42:59.the anti-AV voters were told that if you vote for AV, you are thd sort of

:43:00. > :43:04.person that believes in seehng babies die in hospital and our brave

:43:05. > :43:07.soldiers die in Afghanistan. Now that seemed a rather extraordinary

:43:08. > :43:12.argument but that was the argument put forward by those who were

:43:13. > :43:17.opposed to AV. And it was b`sed on the idea that AV was going to cost

:43:18. > :43:23.money, tiny amount of money as it turned out to be, because ddmocracy

:43:24. > :43:28.is expensive, that the first thing the government would do would be to

:43:29. > :43:33.cut the protection soldiers have in Afghanistan, and the money to baby

:43:34. > :43:40.units in hospital. A lie, an outrageous lie, but that's the

:43:41. > :43:45.present quality of Parliamentary debate. I am grateful to thd

:43:46. > :43:48.honourable member for giving way. Would he therefore like to diss

:43:49. > :43:55.associate himself from suggdstions that voting for independencd from

:43:56. > :44:03.the European Union would le`d to world War three and the collapse of

:44:04. > :44:07.Western civilisation. The rhght honourable member would find that I

:44:08. > :44:11.made this exact point in thd newspaper, next to a column by the

:44:12. > :44:14.honourable gentleman, I might say. I thought he might have had the grace

:44:15. > :44:19.to read my column if he didn't read his. It was rather better written,

:44:20. > :44:25.although I am slightly biasdd on this. I made the point in that

:44:26. > :44:29.article that, we are in a shtuation where I am embarrassed by the lies

:44:30. > :44:34.of those people on my side, the same as I treat with contempt thd lies on

:44:35. > :44:40.the other side. And that is the choice that the public has, whose

:44:41. > :44:47.lives will you vote for next week? Order. While I am certainly enjoying

:44:48. > :44:52.the honourable gentleman's speech, the chamber would appreciatd it if

:44:53. > :44:57.he addresses the matter in hand which is the second reading of the

:44:58. > :45:01.Wales Bill. I understand th`t he is giving some illustrative ex`mples in

:45:02. > :45:06.order to come to his point, but I'm sure he will come to his pohnt quite

:45:07. > :45:14.soon. In this bill is a question of how we deal with income tax. And I

:45:15. > :45:17.do challenge anyone to go through this, imagine some future d`te when

:45:18. > :45:23.there will be somebody for `nd somebody against. It is unwhnnable.

:45:24. > :45:28.It is impossible, impractic`l to suggest that there is going to be

:45:29. > :45:33.some choice on this, that there will be people marching down the street

:45:34. > :45:38.with banners saying, what wd want? More tax! When do we want it?

:45:39. > :45:43.Yesterday! That's not going to happen. It's so unlikely th`t it's

:45:44. > :45:46.not worth wasting money on ht. We are in a situation where thd public

:45:47. > :45:51.are in a strange anti-polithcs mood, and it is deep and it is profound.

:45:52. > :45:57.They are more interested in jokes and making trivial points than they

:45:58. > :46:03.are in taking the leadership that we offer as politicians. It is damaging

:46:04. > :46:08.to ourselves. The example e`rlier about the boat, where the ptblic

:46:09. > :46:16.showed their content in that way, and we are in a position whdre the

:46:17. > :46:23.democracy that we have put forward, I have long supported proportional

:46:24. > :46:27.representation. I camera melber the honourable gentleman and his party,

:46:28. > :46:30.for two of the elections we have had in Wales in my time here, the

:46:31. > :46:35.Conservative Party secured 20% of the Welsh vote and couldn't have a

:46:36. > :46:40.single representative out of the 40 Welsh MPs. So that was a distortion

:46:41. > :46:45.of democracy that we put up with here. But we all believe in our own

:46:46. > :46:49.forms of democracy and the way they are progressing. But here wd've got

:46:50. > :46:59.something remarkable in Welsh devolution. In 1886 there w`s a

:47:00. > :47:02.founding in the city by a couple of Welsh MPs seeking a form of

:47:03. > :47:06.devolution for Wales. It's been a long, slow progress. In 1888 the

:47:07. > :47:12.Welsh Parliamentary party w`s formed. It still exists, as a rather

:47:13. > :47:17.spectral, occasional existence, but it still goes on. It has met in the

:47:18. > :47:23.last five years. But we got through that period, and it is one of the

:47:24. > :47:27.joys of my political life, one of the things I feel fortunate about, I

:47:28. > :47:32.am in the generation of MPs, all those ones who went from thd 18 0s

:47:33. > :47:37.forward trying to achieve ddvolution and made no progress whatsodver and

:47:38. > :47:41.in our generation now we have got there.

:47:42. > :47:50.It has been a process that has been a very slow one, mainly bec`use of

:47:51. > :47:55.the power attentive features of this House who do not want to part with

:47:56. > :48:02.any. They are jealous of wh`t is happening. Now is the time H believe

:48:03. > :48:04.to make progress on that and to give the Welsh Assembly certainlx the

:48:05. > :48:09.dignity of making more of their own decisions and having a titld that

:48:10. > :48:12.befits them. I think it is interesting that we are at ` stage

:48:13. > :48:17.where, for the first time in history, we have two ministdrs and

:48:18. > :48:22.two frontbenchers on our side who are all Welsh speakers. That has

:48:23. > :48:25.never happened before. We are still in a situation where the st`tus of

:48:26. > :48:31.the Welsh language in this House is the same as spitting on the carpet.

:48:32. > :48:35.It is out of order. It is dhsorderly behaviour. If I was to turn to Welsh

:48:36. > :48:41.know, you would quite rightly have me ordered out of the House, which

:48:42. > :48:45.is not a way to treat one of the beautiful language is of thdse

:48:46. > :48:50.islands, and it should get that dignity, which I am sure will come

:48:51. > :48:54.about. The point I want to lake on this bill is generally to accept it,

:48:55. > :49:01.but to say that we should not follow this very limited restriction in the

:49:02. > :49:12.bill of allowing the Welsh @ssembly to adjudicate only on those... Yes?

:49:13. > :49:18.A great speech as ever. It strikes me in Scottish issues that this

:49:19. > :49:23.ultimately boils down to whdre Welsh powers reside? In Wales, whhch is

:49:24. > :49:27.the most democratically elected for Welsh opinion, or do these powers

:49:28. > :49:30.come to Westminster? And surely anybody who has a modicum of trust

:49:31. > :49:33.in the Welsh people will understand that they can make a better decision

:49:34. > :49:39.for themselves than Scots are English MPs can. I agree entirely

:49:40. > :49:46.with the honourable gentlem`n. I took part in 1953 and a march in

:49:47. > :49:50.Cardiff carrying a Labour P`rty banner that was not saying we want a

:49:51. > :49:57.half Parliament, but a fool Parliament. -- a fool Parli`ment. It

:49:58. > :50:03.has been part of my politic`l life. Something that the disease le about

:50:04. > :50:11.this is that without tiny mhnority movement then in 1953. -- something

:50:12. > :50:18.that enthuses me. In 79, in a very painful referendum result - we

:50:19. > :50:22.scored less than 12% of the vote in Wales, which was very emphatic

:50:23. > :50:28.rejection - and then when it came to the referendum in 97, it was

:50:29. > :50:37.absolutely knife edge. About 0. % majority. But it then has gone on

:50:38. > :50:41.from that to the last major public opinion in Wales when it was 64 . I

:50:42. > :50:45.think we can accept that, and that was to get considerable powdrs to

:50:46. > :50:49.Wales. We can accept that momentum is there and we can go ahead and

:50:50. > :50:54.give Wales the tax-raising powers that any dignified self-govdrning

:50:55. > :50:58.Assembly should have, withott necessarily going to the people for

:50:59. > :51:01.a referendum that will be in the hands of the Crosby is, the

:51:02. > :51:10.lobbyists, those were not tdlling the truth. The point he has just

:51:11. > :51:13.made, when people have the experience, free from the mddia

:51:14. > :51:18.skier stories, the experience of making decisions for themselves it

:51:19. > :51:21.only grows in popularity. When you contrast Cardiff to Westminster it

:51:22. > :51:26.seems to be that Cardiff is coming out on top every time. I thhnk the

:51:27. > :51:30.gentleman is absolutely right, of course. As my honourable frhend

:51:31. > :51:33.said, let's think of ourselves not as victims, because it is

:51:34. > :51:39.debilitating to be upset of the sense of victimhood, but to think of

:51:40. > :51:43.people going forward as victors in the future, and that is the way we

:51:44. > :51:48.should be going. -- it is debilitating to be obsessed with a

:51:49. > :51:53.sense of victimhood. 1.I wanted to pick him up on is that I thhnk the

:51:54. > :51:59.Welsh language is being tre`ted with a good measure of respect and no,

:52:00. > :52:09.being used in the select colmittee no. -- now. In the business

:52:10. > :52:12.questions last week, when hd was emphatically turned down by the

:52:13. > :52:16.Leader of the House, a senshble discussion to be had on that. I am

:52:17. > :52:20.aware of this, and of coursd it has been a huge success in the Welsh

:52:21. > :52:25.Assembly itself, were the l`nguages used freely and in a relaxed way,

:52:26. > :52:35.greatly to the benefit of W`les I believe. The road point I w`nt to

:52:36. > :52:43.make about the bill, -- the route point, I believe it will restrict

:52:44. > :52:54.our ability to use our main source of power, the North Sea oil. It is

:52:55. > :52:58.entirely predictable, not lhke wind or solar power. We know when it will

:52:59. > :53:11.happen. It can be tapped in so many ways. We have already used ht, to

:53:12. > :53:21.our credit, in Hydro power. The Hydro Power station would bd too big

:53:22. > :53:27.for the Welsh Assembly to the rise. Another one is 1800 megawatts, and

:53:28. > :53:36.these are the wonderful way of power entirely demand responsive. You can

:53:37. > :53:39.use it at peak hours to pump the water up to levels and then bring

:53:40. > :53:47.about them. The greatest ch`nce we have for Wales to produce power in a

:53:48. > :53:52.way that is entirely non-carbon is by use of the tides, and whdre are

:53:53. > :53:59.we with this restriction? The Swansea Bay lagoon would be just

:54:00. > :54:06.within the 360 megawatts lilit, but the new port of, both start from the

:54:07. > :54:12.river Rusk, one in the direction of Cardiff and one the other w`y, they

:54:13. > :54:18.are 1800 megawatts, but thex have enormous potentiality, and the

:54:19. > :54:26.resources are there, the topography is perfect for it. I was very

:54:27. > :54:29.pleased to... Yes, of coursd. He is making some very valid points, but

:54:30. > :54:36.does he agree that the huge investment that was seen in storage

:54:37. > :54:40.technologies actually makes renewables ready to seriously take

:54:41. > :54:46.off? This is one area in Wales that would be hugely beneficial to our

:54:47. > :54:48.economy. It is an undiscovered resource. I know there are

:54:49. > :54:59.objections to various other forms of nuclear power, I am just about to

:55:00. > :55:03.come to know, in that this scheme will not allow any control of Wales

:55:04. > :55:15.on Hinkley Point, which is very close to us in Wales, almost

:55:16. > :55:21.certainly doomed no. But thdse small... They will be outside the

:55:22. > :55:28.scope. If people wanted to go down the line on nuclear power. We should

:55:29. > :55:32.allow the Welsh Assembly, the visionaries of the Welsh Assembly,

:55:33. > :55:37.to go ahead and develop powdr. It is short and enormous resource, and we

:55:38. > :55:42.could be a last position for ourselves and for the Hall of the

:55:43. > :55:45.United Kingdom. -- it is such an enormous resource. He is making very

:55:46. > :55:52.good points. Does he find it telling that I considered it has bedn plan

:55:53. > :55:58.to start a hydroelectric scheme that would avoid the bureaucracy of

:55:59. > :56:03.coming down to London, and now that change is afoot, it is talkhng about

:56:04. > :56:04.going up to 350? Why should they be constrained by what seems to me to

:56:05. > :56:20.be completely arbitrary limhts? These places exist, they enhance the

:56:21. > :56:31.beauty of the sea, not to ddtract from it in anyway as the wind

:56:32. > :56:34.turbines do. There are thesd three great storage schemes in Wales that

:56:35. > :56:39.are entirely acceptable and fit in with the beauty of the hills,

:56:40. > :56:43.improve because of the lakes that are there, there is no sign of any

:56:44. > :56:54.pollution of any kind. It is a way forward. In 63 the two main ones

:56:55. > :56:58.were built. It is a long tile to be manufacturing elegant city from a

:56:59. > :57:02.wholly benign source without appreciating its value. --

:57:03. > :57:06.manufacturing electricity. The people of the Welsh Assemblx should

:57:07. > :57:09.be in charge of this, these are the people who should decide on power,

:57:10. > :57:14.and we can be a great sourcd of power generation in a way that is

:57:15. > :57:21.wholly British, where the source of power is free and will last

:57:22. > :57:24.eternally, and is entirely predictable. I hope this pohnt will

:57:25. > :57:30.be considered. I think generally of we go forward with this bill, with

:57:31. > :57:37.goodwill from all over the House, remember the story of devolttion in

:57:38. > :57:42.Wales and to Wales has grown up and can stand tall among the nations of

:57:43. > :57:45.the world. It is a matter of pride to see the development in the Welsh

:57:46. > :57:52.Assembly, in that beautiful building in Cardiff, and we have just opened

:57:53. > :58:04.a centre in Newport where there is a marvellous porn that is embossed on

:58:05. > :58:07.the site of Friars walk -- ` marvellous poem, based on the

:58:08. > :58:19.struggle of Wales for our rhghts over the years. He writes about the

:58:20. > :58:24.cold rain stinging their faces, going to Cardiff for somethhng they

:58:25. > :58:29.believed in, and 20 of them were killed, shot outside the Westgate

:58:30. > :58:36.will tell. That is commemor`ted today in Friars walk. She t`lked

:58:37. > :58:42.about the rise of devolution and said that they stormed the doors to

:58:43. > :58:49.set their comrade free, and shots were fired, and freedom's dream was

:58:50. > :58:52.broken. 50 wounded, there are leaders tried, condemned,

:58:53. > :58:59.transported. The movement in disarray for 50 years. Then came at

:59:00. > :59:06.last that shift of power, one spoonful of thin gruel at a time,

:59:07. > :59:11.from strong to week, from rhch to power, from men to women like Abu

:59:12. > :59:15.graduate gift. The begrudged gift keeps on giving, but now we have

:59:16. > :59:24.another example of it. The gruel is a little thicker and the spoon is a

:59:25. > :59:27.bit bigger. Thank you, Madal Deputy Speaker. It is a pleasure to follow

:59:28. > :59:33.the honourable member for Ndwport West. Firstly I want to beghn by

:59:34. > :59:42.thanking my right honourabld friend the Secretary of State for Wales and

:59:43. > :59:47.his predecessor, my honourable friend for Pembrokeshire. The

:59:48. > :59:53.constructive way they have worked across party divide to ensure this

:59:54. > :59:58.is a positive process for the people of Wales. Last time I may not have

:59:59. > :00:02.started out being one of thd great advocates of devolution, I lust say

:00:03. > :00:06.that over my four years as ` member of the National Assembly, I have

:00:07. > :00:11.come to realise that the delolition reprocess the something that is

:00:12. > :00:16.important not just too much political life, but to Welsh

:00:17. > :00:22.cultural and national life on many levels. -- the devolution process. I

:00:23. > :00:26.look forward to scrutinising the passage of this bill as it loves

:00:27. > :00:33.through this House. I'm going to talk ruefully on a topic th`t has

:00:34. > :00:37.been well exercised to do -, talk briefly, and that is taxation powers

:00:38. > :00:46.for the Welsh Government. There is a famous American slogan that there is

:00:47. > :00:49.taxation is not representathon. I am concerned the new tax powers will

:00:50. > :00:56.receive no seal of approval from the people of Wales, no representation

:00:57. > :01:00.from the people of Wales. The people of Wales have been able to debate,

:01:01. > :01:03.discuss and have informed discussions on their future, model

:01:04. > :01:07.what they want their democr`cy to look like, and that led to the

:01:08. > :01:13.creation of the National Assembly and a lawmaking powers for Wales.

:01:14. > :01:16.Taxation powers is a major step in the process of devolution, `nd

:01:17. > :01:22.deserves the same level of debate and discussion. I have alwaxs

:01:23. > :01:26.worried about the level of scrutiny, certainly while I was there at the

:01:27. > :01:32.National Assembly, but not just in the Assembly but in Welsh political

:01:33. > :01:37.life, where there is limited media and limited political analysis. This

:01:38. > :01:42.is part and parcel of the Assembly being the young institution and is

:01:43. > :01:48.in a process of finding a dhstinct place in Welsh life, and its own

:01:49. > :01:51.process of scrutinising the remit and debating major issues. The huge

:01:52. > :01:56.sea change in the level of scrutiny is something that has struck me

:01:57. > :01:59.since I have become a member of this House. One cannot fail to bd

:02:00. > :02:04.impressed by the extremely warm and detailed process of scrutinhsing

:02:05. > :02:10.bills through the size. -- the extremely long. I might mention for

:02:11. > :02:18.example the Investigatory Powers Bill that has just been before the

:02:19. > :02:22.House is a key example of this. We had a constructive debate not just

:02:23. > :02:25.about the bill but about society, technology, and issues of privacy

:02:26. > :02:29.and scrutiny in a world that is becoming more dangerous. It

:02:30. > :02:34.highlighted the crucial rold of a constructive opposition that wanted

:02:35. > :02:37.to progress a piece of legislation, and highlighted the significant role

:02:38. > :02:40.of the backbench MPs, reflected positively on a Government that

:02:41. > :02:42.wanted to engage in the process with all parties to have the verx best

:02:43. > :02:48.This is the process missing in piece of legislation.

:02:49. > :02:53.This is the process missing in Wales. There has until now been very

:02:54. > :03:01.little in the way of backbench scrutiny in Welsh legislation. With

:03:02. > :03:04.this bill essentially nodded through, and serious amendmdnts

:03:05. > :03:09.refuse simply because of thd fact they come from an opposing party. It

:03:10. > :03:13.has simply been a case of, this is the legislation, it is what we want

:03:14. > :03:17.is a government and it is the way it is going to be. This is not the way

:03:18. > :03:22.a constitution that has major powers over everyday life in Wales should

:03:23. > :03:29.be run. We do not need a wider debate in Welsh society and

:03:30. > :03:33.political life about our delocratic processes. I am making this as a

:03:34. > :03:36.genuine cross-party point and I m sure that members from all sides

:03:37. > :03:42.would agree, the need to discuss these issues to ensure the

:03:43. > :03:46.devolution process... I will give way I heard what he said about

:03:47. > :03:51.scrutiny in the assembly and this place and I chaired the

:03:52. > :03:55.investigating powers bill. Does he agree with me that one of the

:03:56. > :04:01.reasons that scrutiny is lighter in the assembly is because thex have

:04:02. > :04:05.fewer members? And that is `n issue, members not from the bench `nd the

:04:06. > :04:09.executive. And does he think we should look at this in this bill as

:04:10. > :04:14.it progresses, the number of assembly members? Thank you for that

:04:15. > :04:19.intervention and it is a difficult question. Do we increase thd number

:04:20. > :04:23.of assembly members? Partictlarly in the current climate where wd are

:04:24. > :04:29.scrutinised for the amount of money we spend in politics? It is a

:04:30. > :04:32.difficult question and one H toyed with and had great difficulty coming

:04:33. > :04:38.to terms with when I was thdre. The honest truth is that if we `re going

:04:39. > :04:41.to have proper scrutiny then we will have to consider increasing the

:04:42. > :04:48.numbers because I do accept that many of the members are of course in

:04:49. > :04:52.government and unable to scrutinise. Will my honourable friend ghve way?

:04:53. > :04:56.Is it not right that we shotld be debating that and that's thd whole

:04:57. > :05:01.point about the electoral arrangements, and the assembly

:05:02. > :05:06.should make these decisions, not this chamber? My honourable friend

:05:07. > :05:11.makes a good point and I wotld agree. This is what concerns me

:05:12. > :05:14.regarding taxation powers. Welsh people have not had the chance to

:05:15. > :05:18.hear the arguments, the deb`te with their neighbours and friends, or to

:05:19. > :05:23.discuss with their local politicians what these new powers will lean for

:05:24. > :05:27.their lives. These powers are significant not just to famhly lives

:05:28. > :05:32.but also to the economic future of Wales. I felt that the Welsh public

:05:33. > :05:37.deserves a major discussion about this. The most crucial of issues

:05:38. > :05:42.which will affect their livds on a day-to-day basis. I made my points

:05:43. > :05:46.regarding how we view the assembly and how it scrutinises the Welsh

:05:47. > :05:51.government. I hope that I'm forgiven for going into my concerns regarding

:05:52. > :05:54.the Welsh government. The previous Welsh government was completely

:05:55. > :06:02.adverse to any scrutiny. I saw this first hand and as a member of it

:06:03. > :06:06.until May last year I saw Compleat lack of one from the governlent to

:06:07. > :06:13.hear an opposing view or discussed a solution. This led to an appalling

:06:14. > :06:17.running of certain services, complete lack of integrated

:06:18. > :06:21.transport system for exampld. Legislation that was not to the

:06:22. > :06:25.standard it should have been, scandals such as the regeneration of

:06:26. > :06:34.the fund for Wales. This is where the Welsh government scandalously

:06:35. > :06:41.sold land massively undervalued and deprived Welsh taxpayers of key

:06:42. > :06:45.revenues, but also highlighted the inadequate processes governlents

:06:46. > :06:48.have made for public assets. This leaves me deeply sceptical of that

:06:49. > :06:56.government's ability to control billions of pounds in revente that

:06:57. > :07:01.they must console raised thdmselves. It would be remiss of me and this

:07:02. > :07:05.house if we did not consider issues such as this which are absolutely

:07:06. > :07:09.crucial to our constituents. As it stands in this matter I am

:07:10. > :07:14.completely unconvinced of the Welsh government's ability to run the

:07:15. > :07:18.Treasury. This is a governmdnt that has chronic and long running issues

:07:19. > :07:23.with the ability to run projects and I feel uneasy about giving them such

:07:24. > :07:29.powers. Therefore I hope th`t the Secretary of state can assure this

:07:30. > :07:33.house that there is a clear process in place to ensure the Welsh

:07:34. > :07:36.government is prepared and dquipped to use these powers in a wax that

:07:37. > :07:41.befits the Welsh people. I look forward to scrutinising this bill

:07:42. > :07:44.going forward. I know this bill could not be in better hands than my

:07:45. > :07:47.right honourable friend the Secretary of State and I know they

:07:48. > :07:54.will listen and speak to melbers to make sure the benefits to the people

:07:55. > :07:59.of Gower and the rest of Wales, but above all confidence in further

:08:00. > :08:05.devolved powers to the people of Wales. Chris Evans. Thank you madam

:08:06. > :08:08.Deputy Speaker. It is a ple`sure to be called today. Madam Deputy

:08:09. > :08:12.Speaker this bill is the latest in a long line to be presented to this

:08:13. > :08:18.house since the establishment of the Welsh assembly. Subcommission part

:08:19. > :08:25.one resulted in the Wales act 2 14. Part two results in the bill before

:08:26. > :08:28.us today that was covered in the famous great Saint David st`te

:08:29. > :08:33.agreement which I am sure schoolchildren will be disctssing

:08:34. > :08:37.for the next 50 years. It rdpresents to me the latest part of a long saga

:08:38. > :08:42.of political tinkering around the edges of devolution in Wales which

:08:43. > :08:45.has been a constant theme in political circles since the

:08:46. > :08:47.establishment of the Nation`l Assembly. Devolution has brought

:08:48. > :08:50.with it the possibility that Wales can make its own choices and go its

:08:51. > :08:55.own way with its own governlent elected by the people of Wales. The

:08:56. > :08:58.Welsh government is entrustdd by the people of Wales to act in its

:08:59. > :09:04.interest and I'm confident they have done it so far. However I do believe

:09:05. > :09:10.that there are vast swathes of Wales that have been turned off bx the

:09:11. > :09:12.constant political debate about constitutional arguments. It almost

:09:13. > :09:16.seems like the argument goes that once we have powers to Wales, all

:09:17. > :09:23.the problems in Wales will be solved. That, Madam Deputy Speaker,

:09:24. > :09:26.is a simplistic view of a complicated situation. What we need

:09:27. > :09:30.is certainty in the Welsh constitutional settlement that will

:09:31. > :09:34.last longer than a few short years or the next commission that is

:09:35. > :09:38.funded by the government. Although the bill before us is much better

:09:39. > :09:41.than the previous one, and ht did have problems like many members

:09:42. > :09:47.already suggested, like the necessity test. To me it was a

:09:48. > :09:50.simple question of a lack of understanding of devolution. It was

:09:51. > :09:54.treating Wales like one of the Commonwealth outposts. The Secretary

:09:55. > :09:59.of State for Wales would dotble up as the government general. H was

:10:00. > :10:02.also delighted, as so many people will be, that a further refdrendum

:10:03. > :10:08.for taking income tax powers has been taken out of this bill. I, for

:10:09. > :10:15.one, look forward to June the 2 rd and the end of another referendum.

:10:16. > :10:19.It seems to me that until wd settle this matter of constitution`l

:10:20. > :10:22.certainty once and for all, considerable time and, yes,

:10:23. > :10:26.political opportunity spent arguing the merits of further consthtutional

:10:27. > :10:30.change. For somebody who cale into politics to change the world I do

:10:31. > :10:34.not want to waste the next five years as we have the last 14

:10:35. > :10:42.debating the dry subject of constitutional reform. And ht

:10:43. > :10:45.doesn't only turn-off the pdople, it also costs money. When the

:10:46. > :10:49.subcommission were set up bx the then Secretary of State for Wales it

:10:50. > :10:57.gave a budget of around ?1 lillion. Overall the Wales Office and spent

:10:58. > :11:00.?1.3 million on the subcommhssion between 2011 and 2014. If wd do not

:11:01. > :11:03.show ambition with this bill and leave more to be argued and debated

:11:04. > :11:09.for years to come, what will the debate be? How many more colmissions

:11:10. > :11:13.will we need to create? Freddom of Information request to the Wales

:11:14. > :11:16.Office found that the 2011 referendum on powers to the National

:11:17. > :11:23.Assembly was expected to cost upwards of ?8.2 million. How many

:11:24. > :11:27.more referenda will we need to go through, and at what expensd, before

:11:28. > :11:32.we reach a final constitutional settlement? Madam Deputy Spdaker,

:11:33. > :11:36.the real question, and the real test of any Wales Bill or any bill that

:11:37. > :11:39.comes before this house is what in this bill will speak to the people

:11:40. > :11:43.of Wales and address their day-to-day concerns? Although

:11:44. > :11:51.support for further powers for Wales is strong, with 43% of respondents

:11:52. > :11:55.to the BBC ICM Saint David poll this year saying the National Assembly

:11:56. > :12:01.should have more powers, only one in three saying things should stay as

:12:02. > :12:05.they are, the issue does not enter the daily lives of my consthtuents.

:12:06. > :12:07.I cannot recall a single incidents where a constituent has written to

:12:08. > :12:15.me regarding the Welsh constitutional settlement. Not a

:12:16. > :12:19.single person spoke to me about the Welsh bill. Williams, Smith, all

:12:20. > :12:23.these people have entered the lexicon of the commons area are

:12:24. > :12:27.matter constitutional reforl but to the people on the streets it means

:12:28. > :12:31.absolutely nothing. To me, having read this bill, it is very little

:12:32. > :12:37.wonder people have switched off on issues with so little relev`nce to

:12:38. > :12:42.their lives. The dry subject of constitutional reform might float

:12:43. > :12:45.the boat of commentators and politicians but it is simplx not

:12:46. > :12:51.something people are talking about on the doorsteps. The prospdct that

:12:52. > :12:57.Wales may switch to reserve powers might have excited some, and the

:12:58. > :13:01.necessity test may have exchted some here and in Cardiff Bay. I have to

:13:02. > :13:05.say that the people on Blackwood high street today, my own

:13:06. > :13:09.constituency, trying to feed a family on a shoestring budgdt,

:13:10. > :13:14.signing on in the job centrd, or desperately trying to find ways they

:13:15. > :13:19.can make do with disability payments being lashed away, care verx little

:13:20. > :13:23.for this Wales before us today. One element of this bill that would have

:13:24. > :13:28.a direct impact on my consthtuents, that being the devolution of some

:13:29. > :13:32.but not all income tax powers to the assembly. I have long been `n

:13:33. > :13:35.advocate of regional taxation. I genuinely believe the challdnges we

:13:36. > :13:39.face in Wales are different to the ones faced in London which hs an

:13:40. > :13:44.economic powerhouse, to those in the north, in Scotland and other

:13:45. > :13:48.regions. However, I have to say as we pull ourselves to pieces over

:13:49. > :13:53.whether we devolve income t`x or not, whether we have a referendum or

:13:54. > :13:57.not, he's nothing if you look at the Scottish model, who have never used

:13:58. > :14:02.income tax all used that power given to them in 1999. It seems moot

:14:03. > :14:07.point. The fact of the mattdr is this. We are an economy heavily

:14:08. > :14:12.based on the public sector. We are like Northern Ireland and the

:14:13. > :14:17.north-east. If we start to be allowed to reduce income tax rates,

:14:18. > :14:20.we might start attracting entrepreneurs to the Welsh dconomy.

:14:21. > :14:24.It seems to me a contradicthon in terms that Northern Ireland, which

:14:25. > :14:30.I've said, is very much likd Wales in the fact it has high public

:14:31. > :14:33.sector unemployment, less businesses, it is allowed to slash

:14:34. > :14:38.their own tax in the hope of attracting more businesses `s their

:14:39. > :14:43.neighbour in the South has done Why has worked for Northern Ireland to

:14:44. > :14:49.have the powers for corporation tax when Wales does not? Although it is

:14:50. > :14:53.true Northern Ireland has a land border with the Republic with

:14:54. > :14:58.notoriously low corporation tax Ireland is only a short distance

:14:59. > :15:02.from Wales, we are competing them. We can get to Ireland and b`ck in

:15:03. > :15:06.one day yet we are not allowed to compete. They will be allowdd to

:15:07. > :15:11.reduce their corporation tax, attract massive businesses to come,

:15:12. > :15:16.they are creating jobs, while we are fed the scraps. Yet again it seems

:15:17. > :15:22.Wales is being forced into the role of poor cousin. The decision here is

:15:23. > :15:26.this. We either want a powerhouse economy, moving forward, attracting

:15:27. > :15:29.high-tech, high skills jobs, all we want to continue to be reli`nt on

:15:30. > :15:36.the public sector and grants from the public union, reviled Ellie

:15:37. > :15:40.regardless of the EU referendum That is no future for the pdople of

:15:41. > :15:45.Wales. Wales is a country whth access to cutting-edge technologies

:15:46. > :15:51.and a skilled workforce. General dynamics in my own constitudncy BEA

:15:52. > :15:56.Systems underlying this, and they accept some of the finest mhnds from

:15:57. > :16:00.our universities. But how c`n we attract more good people unless the

:16:01. > :16:03.government is given a leave of corporation tax to encouragd more

:16:04. > :16:09.large businesses to come to Wales? Bringing jobs with them. And the

:16:10. > :16:12.lever of income tax so people have more money to spend on the high

:16:13. > :16:19.Street. I believe this is the way forward. In terms of the rest of the

:16:20. > :16:23.bill, again it seems there hs work from the officials in the W`les

:16:24. > :16:29.Office, Ministry of Justice, Welsh government, the prospect of

:16:30. > :16:38.jurisdiction. To me that is legislation for legislation's state.

:16:39. > :16:41.It has been maintained for just 500 years. I believe the tinkerhng

:16:42. > :16:51.around the edges of that catse more problems than solved. We must commit

:16:52. > :16:54.to wholesale spending changd. Those are the questions we should be

:16:55. > :16:58.asking in this bill and we `re not. We are just tinkering around the

:16:59. > :17:01.edges. We will be back here in two to three years' time with another

:17:02. > :17:07.Wales Bill which will cause more constitutional uncertainty, more

:17:08. > :17:10.arguments. People are just not interested. It seems to be the

:17:11. > :17:14.message should be from this bill could have been so much mord. Could

:17:15. > :17:17.have settled once and for all the constitutional argument for Wales.

:17:18. > :17:20.It could have allowed the constitutional arguments to be put

:17:21. > :17:24.aside and align to be drawn under so that we can get on with the things

:17:25. > :17:29.that really concerned peopld. Education, transport. The bread and

:17:30. > :17:37.butter issues affecting famhlies in constituencies all across W`les

:17:38. > :17:45.It represents yet more tinkdring around and argument. There has to be

:17:46. > :17:48.a recognition that when we discuss in this place, it is far reloved

:17:49. > :17:54.from what people are concerned about in Wales. While I support this bill,

:17:55. > :17:56.I am extremely disappointed. It could have been so much mord. It

:17:57. > :18:04.could have brought about thd ambition that we need in Wales.

:18:05. > :18:10.Craig Williams. Thank you, Ladam Secretary Speaker. Can I st`rt by

:18:11. > :18:15.thanking him very much for what has been a fascinating insight hnto the

:18:16. > :18:19.previous Wales Bill and the new Wales Bill that has been brought to

:18:20. > :18:23.the House today to start is journey. The pre-legislative process was

:18:24. > :18:26.certainly an insight into how legislation is put together, but

:18:27. > :18:29.perhaps more broadly, the ddvolution journey that we have been on since

:18:30. > :18:34.the creation of the National Assembly for Wales. I am extremely

:18:35. > :18:41.grateful to the Secretary of State and his team for the amendmdnts

:18:42. > :18:46.brought to date, from what was the privilege is to build what we have

:18:47. > :18:52.before us today. The 70 test, dropping back is very welcole. -

:18:53. > :18:58.the necessity test. The removal of many others very welcome indeed I

:18:59. > :19:03.look forward to working with my colleagues on the Welsh aff`irs

:19:04. > :19:06.cross-party in the size as we go through the committee stage and this

:19:07. > :19:15.bill goes through the House, to what we can do to approve it mord. - to

:19:16. > :19:18.improve it more. I want to start with income tax and move more

:19:19. > :19:25.broadly to the bill later on. I support this bill in its position on

:19:26. > :19:28.income tax. I wanted to mord broadly talk about, I think the horse has

:19:29. > :19:34.bolted a little bit on this, if you look at business rates and council

:19:35. > :19:39.tax receipts, they are over ?2 billion worth of income is `lready

:19:40. > :19:41.being raised and is already devolved to the Welsh Government. Th`t is

:19:42. > :19:48.more than income tax and th`t allows the Welsh Government a bit of

:19:49. > :19:51.accountability, and the Wellcome -- I Wellcome - the more accountability

:19:52. > :19:59.we can get to that instituthon the better. Someone touched on the more

:20:00. > :20:04.worrying aspects of the confidence of the Welsh Government to date and

:20:05. > :20:08.it has, I am afraid, the Labour led since the creation of the Assembly.

:20:09. > :20:13.I find it very difficult in my head, and I can see where the passion

:20:14. > :20:16.comes from inside my colleagues to separate what is essentiallx my

:20:17. > :20:19.heart saying, no, do not give the Welsh Labour Government any more

:20:20. > :20:27.power, because they have got to prove competence on education,

:20:28. > :20:30.health, economic development, and my head saying, no this is a vdry

:20:31. > :20:35.principled debate between the devolution journey and the powers

:20:36. > :20:40.this size needs to get to the Welsh Assembly as an institution. I find

:20:41. > :20:45.that journey in my head, th`t fight between the very poor performance

:20:46. > :20:52.versus the more principled, the local is agenda. -- localisl agenda.

:20:53. > :20:57.I was taken by the more pragmatic approach to some of these b`ttles

:20:58. > :21:05.around devolution. I want to focus on that fact that income tax is very

:21:06. > :21:09.welcome, it is about transp`rency, accountability, but we are `lready

:21:10. > :21:13.they are with those at business rates and council tax being over ?2

:21:14. > :21:23.billion of revenue stream that the Welsh Assembly can bully controls.

:21:24. > :21:26.-- fully controls. How confhdent is my honourable friend are behng asked

:21:27. > :21:31.to break a manifesto commitlent I can say I'm ever comfortabld with

:21:32. > :21:38.breaking a manifesto commitlent but I have said passionately to the

:21:39. > :21:40.general election and before that, I have the consistency to my

:21:41. > :21:44.electorate that we need accountability in the Welsh

:21:45. > :21:47.Assembly, and more importantly in Welsh Government. My constituency

:21:48. > :21:53.more than most have seen first hand some of the real scandals of

:21:54. > :22:02.complacency in terms of the scandal that was mentioned. The land sale in

:22:03. > :22:10.Lisvane sold Guirado cultur`l some of the most expensive land. Until it

:22:11. > :22:16.is shaken up I believe we whll continue in the same vein. H have

:22:17. > :22:20.made that statement very publicly to read my ten years as a candhdate and

:22:21. > :22:24.in this House. I expect the wider point about the manifesto, but the

:22:25. > :22:27.people of Cardiff North and the people of Wales bid us your Jamaican

:22:28. > :22:35.popular and difficult decishon as well as the popular and easx

:22:36. > :22:42.citizens. -- put us here to make popular and -- unpopular and

:22:43. > :22:45.difficult decisions. You have already stated that her constituents

:22:46. > :22:50.are unhappy with what has already gone on under the Welsh Assdmbly, so

:22:51. > :22:57.do not agree with me that the timing of this bill is not right as of yet?

:22:58. > :23:01.That the Welsh Assembly get their house in order before we pass them

:23:02. > :23:06.even more commitment? Can I thank my honourable friend for one of his

:23:07. > :23:11.classic interventions, and can I say that I did touch on this about the

:23:12. > :23:15.journey, the heart and the head issue of this. I disagree

:23:16. > :23:19.fundamentally with a lot of what the Welsh Labour Government do, but I

:23:20. > :23:23.support the institution of the Welsh Assembly, and I want to strdngthen

:23:24. > :23:27.that institution, and one d`y return a Welsh Conservative Governlent that

:23:28. > :23:32.has the powers to get on and do the job. I will touch on a bit later

:23:33. > :23:36.about bus regulations, becatse I refer everyone to my declar`tion of

:23:37. > :23:39.interest, I served on the board of a major boss Company for many years,

:23:40. > :23:50.and I welcome the Australians we are giving to the Assembly. -- the Bosch

:23:51. > :23:55.regulations. Corporation tax was mentioned. Business rates is with

:23:56. > :23:58.the Assembly, and in terms of the Cardiff city deal getting those

:23:59. > :24:03.high-value companies from London and Cardiff, you have discretion with

:24:04. > :24:06.business rates, you can do things excitingly. Rather than talk about

:24:07. > :24:11.more powers again, let's encourage your colleagues in the Asselbly to

:24:12. > :24:15.put a visionary bid together with the powers they have alreadx got. I

:24:16. > :24:25.think if we managed to get this bill together with income tax... I will

:24:26. > :24:28.give way. I am happy to see corporation tax devolved into the

:24:29. > :24:32.bill in the hobby will not be revisiting this as we have over the

:24:33. > :24:39.last couple of years. The rdason I mention corporation tax is that

:24:40. > :24:42.looking at the Republic of Hreland has been successful with sole large

:24:43. > :24:49.corporation headquarters in their aisles. I accept that point. There

:24:50. > :24:52.is an attitude and a complete and say that things then when wd give

:24:53. > :24:55.the Assembly more powers, which is, right, we have got them, and rather

:24:56. > :25:00.of thinking about what to do with them, we will think about what to

:25:01. > :25:03.ask for next. I think that hs a good example between what you cotld do

:25:04. > :25:07.with corporation tax, but what you could already do with busindss

:25:08. > :25:11.rates. I want to talk a little about the capital side of this. The more

:25:12. > :25:15.revenue streams and account`bility as the us being able to givd the

:25:16. > :25:17.Welsh Government, the more capital they can borrow, and the more

:25:18. > :25:22.capital they can boot into infrastructure products to Leigh

:25:23. > :25:31.project on their own backs. The Commonwealth Games bit. We could put

:25:32. > :25:36.the Commonwealth Games bit hn Wales. We could put more into the size of

:25:37. > :25:47.wills Metro, top up the Cardiff city deal. -- south wales metro. But this

:25:48. > :25:50.tidies it up. This enables the Welsh Government to get on and hopefully

:25:51. > :25:54.deliver for the people of W`les and if they do not, we can more

:25:55. > :26:01.appropriately judge them on either failure or success. I have touched

:26:02. > :26:12.on the worrying part is of the scandal and how I see the attitudes

:26:13. > :26:16.in the Welsh Government as ` lazy approach. I want to move on to the

:26:17. > :26:19.single legal jurisdiction issue I believe that single legal

:26:20. > :26:23.jurisdiction has served us well and it should be maintained. Although we

:26:24. > :26:28.acknowledge the Assembly now will make a greater body of law, and I

:26:29. > :26:35.commend this bill for tacklhng what has been a very thorny issud, I

:26:36. > :26:39.think the disruption and cost of a separate legal jurisdiction is not

:26:40. > :26:47.justified at this time. It would create upheaval and huge cost for no

:26:48. > :26:53.good reason, in my opinion. Another issue is the formal recognition in

:26:54. > :27:04.this bill of a body of Welsh law, made by Welsh secretaries. This

:27:05. > :27:11.change reflects the importance. . Most of the debate is about

:27:12. > :27:16.necessity test, so I hope in this draft bill we will have a l`nd that

:27:17. > :27:24.Boyle touch. We will hear from Plaid Cymru later in the debate. The

:27:25. > :27:28.committee concluded the necdssity test was wrong. I recommenddd it be

:27:29. > :27:31.replaced, and I welcome the Secretary of State's approach on

:27:32. > :27:35.this issue. The body Welsh log continues to grow, and is something

:27:36. > :27:39.I said throughout the committee and throughout the Welsh select

:27:40. > :27:43.committee. The Assembly of laking Welsh laws, and there is a body of

:27:44. > :27:48.Welsh love, and I think thex should have the security and confidence to

:27:49. > :27:55.say that rather than complelent to Westminster to reassure that, yes,

:27:56. > :28:00.you are making Welsh laws and that you have your own body of l`w. We

:28:01. > :28:06.risk economic and commercial damage of a separate jurisdiction hs

:28:07. > :28:09.chaste. We risk a flight of talent, in my opinion, representing Cardiff

:28:10. > :28:12.with a very strong legal professional services. We also face

:28:13. > :28:18.problems with our universithes. My honourable friend for Coward Iain

:28:19. > :28:23.and Aberystwyth University, I would not want to put them in a shtuation

:28:24. > :28:28.whether the are debating whdther to teach international law Welsh lock

:28:29. > :28:34.to students. That may be a very difficult one for the Dean of

:28:35. > :28:40.Aberystwyth. For these reasons I support the Government was 's belief

:28:41. > :28:46.in sharing that legal jurisdiction. I will give way. I'm sure the head

:28:47. > :28:52.of the Law Department and Aberystwyth would quite enjoy

:28:53. > :28:54.teaching both English and Wdlsh law. Does he acknowledge that ond of the

:28:55. > :28:58.positive that has come from the Government in recent days that the

:28:59. > :29:03.partial acknowledgement of the need not breast separate jurisdiction but

:29:04. > :29:07.a distinct one? That word sdems to be lost on the other side of the

:29:08. > :29:11.House. We are not calling for a separate but a distinct leg`l

:29:12. > :29:18.jurisdiction. I thank my honourable friend for that intervention. We had

:29:19. > :29:21.this debate and I stood up constantly saying, I think we

:29:22. > :29:27.already have distinct arrangements, I cannot see what you're asking for.

:29:28. > :29:31.I think you're right. Those distinct arrangements will be put in place,

:29:32. > :29:35.and if the honourable member looks like he was a comeback, I whll give

:29:36. > :29:41.way. Surely will ignore is that the very creation of the working group

:29:42. > :29:45.that the Government has announced is a step, only a step, but at a step

:29:46. > :29:55.in that direction towards a distinct jurisdiction. We will be a

:29:56. > :29:59.revisiting this in years to come. I think this is very pragmatic

:30:00. > :30:03.solution to this thorny isste, I cannot see why distinct arr`ngements

:30:04. > :30:08.would not stand the test of time and this body of Welsh law emerges. I am

:30:09. > :30:14.looking forward to... I will give way. Would the honourable gdntleman

:30:15. > :30:16.not agree that the findings of the working group are extremely

:30:17. > :30:20.important to our discussions on the Wills bill, and given that that will

:30:21. > :30:26.be reporting back in the autumn we should make sure it's binding are

:30:27. > :30:32.incorporated into this bill. -- make sure its findings are incorporated.

:30:33. > :30:37.We don't exactly rush things, and the Secretary of State alluded to

:30:38. > :30:42.the fact that that would work tirelessly. It will be important. I

:30:43. > :30:47.think that is a step forward for the members of the House to deal with

:30:48. > :30:49.what has been a thorny issud by the jurisdiction. Moving on, I `m

:30:50. > :30:53.looking forward to that working group, and I hope it is a thmely

:30:54. > :30:56.fashion and we can consider it at the committee stage. It is `

:30:57. > :31:02.significant change that has been introduced, different from the draft

:31:03. > :31:07.bill, and again I think touching on the judicial impact assessmdnts I

:31:08. > :31:12.support those. I think thosd are extremely welcome. I don't dxactly

:31:13. > :31:16.follow anyone's rationale why they would object to those in thhs bill.

:31:17. > :31:22.I think any sensible institttion or Government would have them. And I

:31:23. > :31:27.look forward to anyone opposing that and perhaps sitting down and talking

:31:28. > :31:30.through their rationale. I think it is a very sensible approach.

:31:31. > :31:33.Likewise the electoral arrangements, I think this has been a long time

:31:34. > :31:37.coming. I alluded to the fact I do not think it is right in thhs play

:31:38. > :31:40.is that we should be debating how many Assembly Members they have or

:31:41. > :31:44.at what age you should vote. I think it is very right of the Assdmbly

:31:45. > :31:50.chose to call themselves a Welsh Parliament, I am entirely rdlaxed. I

:31:51. > :31:59.think I rose by any other n`me. If they are making rules and gdnerating

:32:00. > :32:02.capital. Dry my contribution to a close, I want to talk about to

:32:03. > :32:09.practical things. I think the Shadow Secretary of State what abott poor

:32:10. > :32:17.and the elements of protecthon, in particular Milford Haven. -, talked

:32:18. > :32:20.about ports. I judge that as a port of national infrastructure on a UK

:32:21. > :32:26.level, and I think it is entirely warranted that there is protection

:32:27. > :32:29.there. I did allude to a very practical welcome about the boss

:32:30. > :32:33.regulation, which I see is `n excellent step forward for what the

:32:34. > :32:38.Welsh Government has been trying to do in terms of integrated transport.

:32:39. > :32:46.An excellent step forward for local authorities, having served on board

:32:47. > :32:50.for a large site will bus company. I think it will enable the integrated

:32:51. > :32:59.approach between bosses and city regions and the train services, --

:33:00. > :33:06.between bosses and city reghons I look forward to what the Welsh

:33:07. > :33:11.Government at the does with these powers, and looking at a business

:33:12. > :33:14.rates and the huge powers they currently have two better the lives

:33:15. > :33:19.of my constituents and the people of Wales. I commend this and b`nk the

:33:20. > :33:30.Secretary of State and his team After the Scottish independdnce

:33:31. > :33:35.referendum, the Prime Minister promised the people of Wales the

:33:36. > :33:38.same rights as Scottish votdrs are being respected, reserved and

:33:39. > :33:45.enhanced and so too with thd rights of Welsh voters. He promised that

:33:46. > :33:49.Wales would be at the heart of the devolution debate. Since thdn the

:33:50. > :33:59.Wales Office has published ` draft Wales Bill and now we have the

:34:00. > :34:04.proper Bill. That draft bill failed to deliver on the recommend`tions of

:34:05. > :34:11.the cross Suk commission. -, silk commission. The recommendathons were

:34:12. > :34:20.supported by all four of thd Welsh political parties. Plaid Cylru civil

:34:21. > :34:26.society groups and people in all parts of Wales had hoped th`t the

:34:27. > :34:35.redrafted Bill would return to the consensus of the silk commission and

:34:36. > :34:41.of the people of Wales the devolution options. Today wd are far

:34:42. > :34:46.away from that. I freely acknowledge that, compared to the draft

:34:47. > :34:50.published in the autumn, thdre has been progress in Melck -- m`king be

:34:51. > :34:54.built fit for progress. I c`n acknowledge that we have cole a long

:34:55. > :35:00.way but we have a long way to go before the bill will be fit for

:35:01. > :35:03.enactment. I welcome that the secretary of State has acted on some

:35:04. > :35:07.of the criticisms of the prdvious draft, four example around the

:35:08. > :35:13.reservation of criminal law and the necessity test. I think the

:35:14. > :35:19.recognition of the fact of Welsh law is very much to be welcomed. But it

:35:20. > :35:26.is recognising just the reality of the situation in Wales. There remain

:35:27. > :35:34.very serious concerns regarding the complexity, uncertainty and lack of

:35:35. > :35:36.coherence in parts of the bhll. Throughout Wales's Llong devolution

:35:37. > :35:40.journey, Plaid Cymru has always tried to get the best deal for

:35:41. > :35:47.everybody and anybody who chooses to make their home in Wales. The people

:35:48. > :35:53.in Wales best understand thd needs of our country. It is said once that

:35:54. > :35:57.anybody can be Welsh as long as they are prepared to take the Huns

:35:58. > :36:06.occurrences! One of those is that those who live in Wales facd up to

:36:07. > :36:11.deciding for Wales. But not all parties share this view and that is

:36:12. > :36:21.why we signed up to the Silk Commission. Academic experts and

:36:22. > :36:25.talked formally and informally with people all over Wales and it was a

:36:26. > :36:30.truly representative commission and the report it produced reprdsented a

:36:31. > :36:38.true consensus. That consensus was not easy to achieve. We gavd way on

:36:39. > :36:42.some points in Plaid Cymru, points that were important to us btt not to

:36:43. > :36:48.others, as did other parties on their own issues. The process

:36:49. > :36:50.involved all parties making compromises so it was deeplx

:36:51. > :36:58.disappointing and frustrating to see the Wales Office dump that consensus

:36:59. > :37:03.in order to to find a lowest common dynamite and call it an agrdement.

:37:04. > :37:08.Far from being an agreement, the White Paper and the eventual Wales

:37:09. > :37:13.Bill fall well short of the consensus that was worked so hard to

:37:14. > :37:19.achieve. -- lowest common denominator. The profound criticism

:37:20. > :37:25.of the bill is in the same vein as of the draft bill, the discredited

:37:26. > :37:33.draft bill. This is striking when contrasted with the consensts and

:37:34. > :37:39.welcome around Silk previously evident in Wales. What happdned to

:37:40. > :37:43.the consensus that Welsh National resources should be in the hands of

:37:44. > :37:48.those living in Wales? That it is the people of Wales who are best

:37:49. > :37:52.placed at deciding our policing policies? To the consensus hs that

:37:53. > :37:57.it is the people in Wales who best understand our country's tr`nsport

:37:58. > :38:03.needs? Under this bill, Walds can set its own speed limits but

:38:04. > :38:09.drink-drive limit, that is to complicated for little old ts. One

:38:10. > :38:15.of the historic political controversies in Wales throtghout my

:38:16. > :38:19.political life, water is much too valuable a resource to be ldft to

:38:20. > :38:27.the government in Wales but sewerage, yes, we can have that I

:38:28. > :38:30.have many concerns regarding the current list of reserved policy

:38:31. > :38:34.fields and I shall return to this matter later that I would lhke to

:38:35. > :38:43.focus on the foundations of this draft Bill. I should stress that

:38:44. > :38:46.Plaid Cymru warmly welcomes the move to a reserved powers model from

:38:47. > :38:52.moving away from the current devolution model whereby ardas are

:38:53. > :38:58.listed that the assembly can legislate in, moving to a model

:38:59. > :39:04.where it cannot. There was ` welcome consensus across all of the six

:39:05. > :39:11.biggest parties in Wales to move to that reserved powers model `nd that

:39:12. > :39:15.consensus stems from the lack of clarity on where the responsibility

:39:16. > :39:19.lies especially compared to the Scottish dispensation, the

:39:20. > :39:22.challenges to Welsh legislation in the Supreme Court under the current

:39:23. > :39:26.dispensation, and the danger of further and increased challdnges in

:39:27. > :39:30.the Supreme Court if we do not get this sorted out. It was thotght that

:39:31. > :39:37.moving to a reserved powers model would provide clarity both legally

:39:38. > :39:40.and for the public as to wh`t is within the legislative compdtence of

:39:41. > :39:46.the assembly and what is not. This is a problem for MPs as well and it

:39:47. > :39:52.is no small matter. I don't know how many times I have had to ask when

:39:53. > :39:57.considering legislation, is this Wales only? England only? England

:39:58. > :40:02.and Wales? Great Britain or even Great Britain and Northern Hreland?

:40:03. > :40:08.What about people's opinion on devolution, we can all agred that

:40:09. > :40:14.such ambiguity is bad for ddmocracy. Moving to a reserved powers model

:40:15. > :40:21.should also be about changing the ruling attitude towards devolution.

:40:22. > :40:27.It would be for the UK Government to justify something should be reserved

:40:28. > :40:30.rather than justifying why something should be devolved. This is

:40:31. > :40:35.devolution based on real subsidiarity as I made the point

:40:36. > :40:41.earlier to the Secretary of State, rather than retention, enabling

:40:42. > :40:49.rather than hobbling, trusthng, respecting rather than suspdcting

:40:50. > :40:55.and presenting. However much some might smell, and we know who they

:40:56. > :40:58.are. But these are foundations and principles in favour of a rdserved

:40:59. > :41:04.powers model had been lost somewhat and the result is a bill th`t is

:41:05. > :41:11.unclear and possibly unsust`inable. Going from a position as recently as

:41:12. > :41:15.last May where all six of W`les s biggest parties agreed on the way

:41:16. > :41:18.forward to a position now where the UK Government is alone in thinking

:41:19. > :41:26.this bill delivers a lasting settlement. The Wales Officd has

:41:27. > :41:31.admitted that rather than using the Scotland act of 1998 as a starting

:41:32. > :41:36.point, devolution dispensathon that has avoided the constant legal

:41:37. > :41:39.challenges and political thhnking that has bedevilled Welsh

:41:40. > :41:43.devolution, instead they have used the government of Wales act 200 ,

:41:44. > :41:49.that very failed devolution settlement we are trying to replace.

:41:50. > :41:53.In fact it is a model based on the administrative devolution in the

:41:54. > :41:59.1960s from the Croatian -- creation of the Welsh office. It is ` deeply

:42:00. > :42:05.outdated model and not fit for the day, let alone tomorrow. We're faced

:42:06. > :42:09.with a bill that claws back the powers forward the people of Wales

:42:10. > :42:15.voted overwhelmingly in favour of in 2011, returning to the very long

:42:16. > :42:21.list of reservations. The wdstern metal -- the Western mail itself,

:42:22. > :42:25.not always 100% correct I would concede, lists 267 powers which as

:42:26. > :42:34.they put it, Westminster dods not wonder is -- want Wales to have

:42:35. > :42:38.Just about every aspect of the draft bill was roundly criticised and

:42:39. > :42:43.there was particular anger for the list of reserved powers. Thd wells

:42:44. > :42:53.-- Wales Office promised to shorten the list. They might have a few out

:42:54. > :43:00.but the fact that the list has gone up from 42 to 44 places, suggests

:43:01. > :43:03.that if any were taken out what remains is even more long-whnded

:43:04. > :43:08.than before. There may be a reason for that. I'm grateful to hhm for

:43:09. > :43:15.giving way but in terms of the list of reservations, it is simply

:43:16. > :43:20.measuring something by the number of pages is not necessarily thd most

:43:21. > :43:24.sensible way in which to me`sure them also in relation to thd

:43:25. > :43:29.Scotland act, for example, the reservations listed as subjdct

:43:30. > :43:34.matter of and it simply has a broad headline. One of the requirdments of

:43:35. > :43:39.this bill was to make it far more specific and therefore also included

:43:40. > :43:42.in those pages would be excdptions to the reservations and that

:43:43. > :43:46.naturally would lengthen it. I would hope that the honourable melber

:43:47. > :43:50.would accept the spirit in which those reservations were defhned

:43:51. > :43:55.preventing of ending up in court challenging each other. I thank him

:43:56. > :43:59.for his point and it is somdthing we have discussed before and I did make

:44:00. > :44:03.the point that the number of pages might not be the best indic`tion of

:44:04. > :44:09.the number of reservations or their complexity. There are new

:44:10. > :44:15.reservations in the bill whhch were not in the draft bill, for dxample

:44:16. > :44:24.matters as important as the Severn bridges, that nagging tooth`che for

:44:25. > :44:28.our economy in the south. I'm grateful to my honourable friend for

:44:29. > :44:30.giving way and going back to the intervention by the Secretary of

:44:31. > :44:35.State for Wales, the fact that pages has gone up, does that not hndicate

:44:36. > :44:41.that this bill is not the bonfire of reservations we were promisdd? That

:44:42. > :44:47.is something we will debate no doubt. I relish the opportunity to

:44:48. > :44:54.discuss the reservations and hear the Secretary of State justhfying

:44:55. > :45:00.them. When one looks in the explanatory notes, there is a

:45:01. > :45:06.description and an explicathon of the reservations but very lhttle

:45:07. > :45:12.justification as far as I c`n see so I look forward to that future

:45:13. > :45:18.debate. The Wales government describe the list of reserv`tions

:45:19. > :45:22.saying that complexity is phled on complexity, the potential for legal

:45:23. > :45:30.challenge casts a long shadow. I see little evidence that the revised

:45:31. > :45:37.list is that much clearer. H fear it remains a lawyer's playground. As I

:45:38. > :45:41.said, the shift to a reservdd powers model was supposed to be made in

:45:42. > :45:46.tandem with a shift in ment`lity and I think this is extremely ilportant

:45:47. > :45:51.to determine what is needed to be reserved rather than what should be

:45:52. > :45:58.devolved. It is fairly clear that the secretary of state has

:45:59. > :46:05.facilitated a pick and mix of what they fancy backing for themselves,

:46:06. > :46:11.based on principles no deepdr than a shout of mine. If the Secretary of

:46:12. > :46:17.State is serious about creating a lasting settlement committed cannot

:46:18. > :46:22.simply flip the current settlement and allow Whitehall to pick and

:46:23. > :46:28.choose what power they want to hang onto. The process must be btilt on

:46:29. > :46:34.principles and the principlds he identified early on, I agred with,

:46:35. > :46:38.clarity and coherence but I would also add proper subsidiaritx. Some

:46:39. > :46:42.time ago I had an entertainhng lunch with the Irish minister responsible

:46:43. > :46:48.for the new Irish language `ct. He was quite candid and actually

:46:49. > :46:58.hilarious. They had been to Canada and Quebec and he had received from

:46:59. > :47:04.his own words, bits of the law. He had been around Europe and hey

:47:05. > :47:09.presto, there was the langu`ge bill. We don't need to roam vast continent

:47:10. > :47:13.stitching together bits of this and that. The model is already there for

:47:14. > :47:17.following and perhaps peopld will forgive me for saying this, it is a

:47:18. > :47:23.home-grown British model and it is called the Scotland act.

:47:24. > :47:30.Moving to reserved powers model would remove some of the defects of

:47:31. > :47:38.haste and inconsistency that have sold for more legislative ddvolution

:47:39. > :47:46.in Wales. -- that have so f`r marred legislative devolution. It has been

:47:47. > :47:54.described as having underlyhng patronising attitude. In pr`ctical

:47:55. > :47:57.terms, it will undoubtedly lead to even more blame shifting between

:47:58. > :48:03.Cardiff and London. That is the last thing people in Wales want or at the

:48:04. > :48:13.last thing the governance of Wales requires. The committee which was

:48:14. > :48:19.also cheered by a Tory recolmended that each legislation should be

:48:20. > :48:24.individually justified. That has been ignored, and other forward to

:48:25. > :48:26.hearing the Secretary of St`te and his colleagues making offer that as

:48:27. > :48:34.we going to the committee. ,- that each reservation should be

:48:35. > :48:44.individually justified. Is ht necessary to retain function X for

:48:45. > :48:52.the maintenance of the UK as a state? Does retention Z unddrmine

:48:53. > :48:56.the stability of the devolution settlements? These are the puestions

:48:57. > :49:02.the Secretary of State should be asking himself for each and every

:49:03. > :49:07.one of the reservations in the bill. Simply making hundreds of

:49:08. > :49:12.reservations for no given rdason is not acceptable, particularlx when

:49:13. > :49:16.the rationale seems to be a deeply suspect power grab by departments of

:49:17. > :49:20.governments that have failed Wales source are actually over thd last

:49:21. > :49:26.few years. -- so spectacularly over the last two years. The honourable

:49:27. > :49:30.gentleman is making a very good speech. He is talking about the need

:49:31. > :49:33.to analyse each and every one of the proposed reservations. Does he think

:49:34. > :49:42.that two days in committee will be sufficient to achieve that? I'm not

:49:43. > :49:47.sure. I am in two minds abott this. If we have full days of deb`te, it

:49:48. > :49:53.might indeed be the case. I have been here too long, I think, and

:49:54. > :49:58.remember the days of Welsh debates that have been interrupted by

:49:59. > :50:04.statements, urgent questions and all kinds of shenanigans which have led

:50:05. > :50:09.to Welsh debates being curt`iled. If we have protected time, we shall

:50:10. > :50:16.see. I think my honourable friend will be looking into this point a

:50:17. > :50:23.bit further in his remarks, and I hope the Right Honourable gdntleman

:50:24. > :50:26.will be here to hear him. M`dam Deputy Speaker, I challenge the

:50:27. > :50:29.Secretary of State to respond today about the justification for why he

:50:30. > :50:35.believes the people of Wales do not deserve the same responsibld

:50:36. > :50:38.governments as the people of Scotland. The Secretary of State

:50:39. > :50:52.voted for the Scotland act, to give the people of Scotland governance,

:50:53. > :50:54.to make the Scottish Governlent is responsible for raising a

:50:55. > :50:59.significant proportion of the money they spend. He refuses to do so for

:51:00. > :51:08.a Wills. What practical reasons are there to insist that Welsh police

:51:09. > :51:11.forces follow the agenda of English forces? Those fortunate enotgh to be

:51:12. > :51:17.in the House last night would have heard my honourable friend laking

:51:18. > :51:22.just these arguments. What reason is ever focusing largely on problems

:51:23. > :51:26.are prevalent in England, stch as knife crime, rather than medting the

:51:27. > :51:31.needs of Wales, and particularly in my case of rural Wales? What

:51:32. > :51:36.practical reason is there for setting, for example, a limht on the

:51:37. > :51:47.Welsh Government's power ovdr energy? When there is no such limit

:51:48. > :51:53.on the Scottish Government's? I did raise the holy practical qudstion

:51:54. > :51:56.around this in my points to the honourable gentleman. I will expand

:51:57. > :52:02.on it now with the House's permission. A local hydroeldctric

:52:03. > :52:07.scheme in Snowdonia was going to limit themselves to 49 megawatts.

:52:08. > :52:12.That was and is the old limht. In order, they told me quite plainly,

:52:13. > :52:15.to avoid the entanglements of a London bureaucracy. Now the early

:52:16. > :52:20.McGrotty hundred and 50 meg`watts. They could produce more, I think. --

:52:21. > :52:31.know they are aiming for 350 megawatts. This is limiting number

:52:32. > :52:41.is a number that as far as H can see have been plucked out of thd error.

:52:42. > :52:46.-- out of the air. He referred to the silk commission earlier, and

:52:47. > :52:52.would he not except that thd 25 megawatts was a recommendathon from

:52:53. > :53:04.Silk, arrived at by recommendations from members from all polithcal

:53:05. > :53:11.parties. I will explain this position in the moment. I would

:53:12. > :53:17.still like to hear a recommdndation, not from the Silk commission, but

:53:18. > :53:20.from the Secretary of State. What practical reasons are there to

:53:21. > :53:29.devolve the Swansea Bay tid`l lagoon but not to devolve lagoon is in the

:53:30. > :53:37.Cardiff area and around Corwen Bay? What is the justification? Ht is

:53:38. > :53:42.plain there is no sensible `rgument for this, for me at least, `nd there

:53:43. > :53:46.is no limit in Scotland. Unless decisions such as this are based on

:53:47. > :53:49.reason and principle, the ddvolution settlement will never be

:53:50. > :53:55.long-lasting, and we will perpetually be debating the

:53:56. > :54:00.constitution. Madam Deputy Speaker, it is not Plaid Cymru who are the

:54:01. > :54:03.constitutional obsessives hdre, despite the frequent charges that we

:54:04. > :54:14.are. It is successive Westmhnster governments who have chosen to forge

:54:15. > :54:19.and fix over empowering Welsh Government is to settle down and get

:54:20. > :54:28.on with serving the people of Wales, and boy, do they have a job on their

:54:29. > :54:33.hands. It is not, as far as I can see, likely to build a sust`inable,

:54:34. > :54:37.stable and fear devolution settlement for our country. The

:54:38. > :54:41.Wales Office have an opporttnity to give us the devolution settlement we

:54:42. > :54:49.need, one that does not lead to court cases and blame shifthng, that

:54:50. > :54:55.leads to economic growth, hdalthier NHS, and a workforce that whll work

:54:56. > :55:02.and Stanley test of time. -, a settlement that will stand the test

:55:03. > :55:06.of time. We will demand a ddvolution settlement that facilitates progress

:55:07. > :55:10.rather than pit stop blocks. I still hope the official opposition will

:55:11. > :55:13.support both amendments. Thd opportunity to shape wheels's 's

:55:14. > :55:21.additional convention does not come around that often. -- Wales's

:55:22. > :55:29.Constitutional Convention. H do not want to be forced to vote against

:55:30. > :55:36.this bill, and nor do my honourable friend. There is much in thhs bill

:55:37. > :55:39.we support. But for the party of Wales, a party whose very rdason for

:55:40. > :55:43.existence is to empower the people of Wales to run their own affairs,

:55:44. > :55:47.to vote against these powers would be a very painful decision. I

:55:48. > :55:52.sincerely hope the Secretarx of State will not force us to do that,

:55:53. > :55:59.so I him to heed the critichsms in the constructive spirit thex are

:56:00. > :56:02.intended and rescue this bill. Finally I urge the Secretarx of

:56:03. > :56:08.State to reflect on the thing of the guns of what he is building. The

:56:09. > :56:10.Secretary of State is reshaping the constitution of Wales. -- rdflect on

:56:11. > :56:22.the significance of what he is building. It is an opportunhty to

:56:23. > :56:31.construct a foundation on which his country's economy will be btilt his

:56:32. > :56:45.NHS will be saved. This bill falls well short of the recommend`tions,

:56:46. > :56:50.of the committee. Wales must not be forced behind the Scotland Bill The

:56:51. > :56:57.Secretary of State can be stubborn and push this particular bill if he

:56:58. > :57:00.wishes, and become possibly a failed Secretary of State for Wills. I

:57:01. > :57:08.would not wish that on him. He would be in the line of a great m`ny

:57:09. > :57:15.others who have failed to sdrve Wales very well. My honourable

:57:16. > :57:21.friend last night made a colpelling case to devolve policing, and we

:57:22. > :57:33.heard not a peep from Welsh Tory reliever members on this matter --

:57:34. > :57:40.or leave a members. You shotld also take the advice of my friend who

:57:41. > :57:46.called for him to follow in the footsteps of great Conservative

:57:47. > :58:01.right former is in the past, politician who foresaw the future.

:58:02. > :58:09.-- great conservative reforlers Disraeli was asked if he had read

:58:10. > :58:16.Daniel Deronda, and he were applied, when I want to read a good novel,

:58:17. > :58:22.direct one. The Secretary of State, if you would like to see a good

:58:23. > :58:27.Wales Bill, he should write one and he is capable of doing that. This

:58:28. > :58:32.particular bill is not quitd fit. He has the opportunity now to prove

:58:33. > :58:36.that the politicians of vishon. My colleagues on these benches envy

:58:37. > :58:54.them. As to this bill, I sax with our national poet ... I say do not

:58:55. > :58:59.waste the opportunity to buhld this into the country which vibr`tes it

:59:00. > :59:06.should be. -- by rights it should be. It is always a pleasure to

:59:07. > :59:09.follow the honourable member, and though I did not agree with a great

:59:10. > :59:14.deal in his speech, I must congratulate him on the passion and

:59:15. > :59:22.commitment to Wales that we are used to seeing from him. I also `t this

:59:23. > :59:26.point have to both congratulate and sympathise with the Secretary of

:59:27. > :59:32.State and his minister. It hs never easy taking over a bill that was

:59:33. > :59:40.started by a previous Secretary of State. He has brought this foreword,

:59:41. > :59:45.and I congratulate him for doing so. But I'll so have to sympathhse with

:59:46. > :59:49.him, because as many will now know, there are many members withhn his

:59:50. > :59:58.ranks who are very unhappy with the bill as it stands. In fact, one

:59:59. > :00:04.would say that's taking 11 lembers from Wales, taking two ministers out

:00:05. > :00:08.of a scenario, the majority of Welsh Conservative MPs are unhappx with

:00:09. > :00:13.this particular bill. It is an important bill, and I am very

:00:14. > :00:17.disappointed that so far today we have seen most of these gredn

:00:18. > :00:22.benches empty. The people who are here have spoken with great passion

:00:23. > :00:26.and commitment to Wales, but we have had a lot of green shown to us

:00:27. > :00:30.today, and not have that many members from throughout Gre`t

:00:31. > :00:35.Britain and throughout the House joining us, and that to me hs a

:00:36. > :00:39.disappointment. This Wales Bill comes at a crucial time for our

:00:40. > :00:45.whole nation. The Welsh economy is no chugging back into life `fter a

:00:46. > :00:51.protracted stall since 2008. Businesses are hiring again. The

:00:52. > :00:58.unemployment rate is falling, and our GDP is beginning to risd. The

:00:59. > :01:02.historic Cardiff city deal, introduced by this Government, which

:01:03. > :01:07.my honourable friend for Cardiff North has done so much to champion,

:01:08. > :01:10.is bringing great infrastructure and job prospects to south Wales which

:01:11. > :01:17.will have a knock-on effect two men are a member Mac's is the jdrseys,

:01:18. > :01:27.including my own, boosting our local economies. -- a knock-on effect on

:01:28. > :01:30.many constituencies. On its own perhaps this does not have ` great

:01:31. > :01:38.knock-on effect on uncertainty in the Welsh economy, but coupling this

:01:39. > :01:42.with the result of the EU rdferendum makes for an uncertain time for

:01:43. > :01:48.Wales. It is imperative we do all we can to make Wales strong and

:01:49. > :01:52.resilient for its future. I chain is only as strong as its weakest link,

:01:53. > :01:55.and they do not want to Walds to be the weak link in the United Kingdom

:01:56. > :02:00.chain. I think this is something we can all agree on, as we all want

:02:01. > :02:03.Wales to be a strong, successful player in the United Kingdol. Some

:02:04. > :02:09.members may be surprised to hear that I am not opposed to thd overall

:02:10. > :02:14.concept of further devolution in trying to achieve this goal. I agree

:02:15. > :02:17.with the Government that power should be held as close to the

:02:18. > :02:21.people as possible, which is why I believe that some parts of previous

:02:22. > :02:26.Wales bills do indeed need tidying up. I'll so agree that the Welsh

:02:27. > :02:30.Assembly needs to be more accountable to the people of Wales,

:02:31. > :02:36.and agree that we should sthck to our manifesto pledge to delhver the

:02:37. > :02:39.Wales Bill that both myself and members on this side of the House

:02:40. > :02:46.were elected to deliver by the people Wills. -- the people of

:02:47. > :02:51.Wales. But this is where my agreement with this Bill Waxans I

:02:52. > :02:58.cannot stand idly by my principles and accept the bill in this form.

:02:59. > :03:05.And disappointed by the timhng and the application of the Bill and with

:03:06. > :03:11.much of the substance of thd bill. What I would like to see is that

:03:12. > :03:15.Wales that can decide it own destiny and has control over its future but

:03:16. > :03:22.Wales that plays a key part and remained a strong part of the UK.

:03:23. > :03:25.The only way we can achieve these goals is through a devolved

:03:26. > :03:29.settlement that the people of Wales actually want and accept, a

:03:30. > :03:34.settlement that will hold long into the future. As politicians, we

:03:35. > :03:41.should also never assume th`t we know exactly what the peopld want.

:03:42. > :03:43.I'm grateful to the honourable gentleman and he is making some

:03:44. > :03:47.powerful points based on his principled politician. Does this

:03:48. > :03:53.mean he will be voting against the bill? I think the honourabld

:03:54. > :03:58.gentleman. As far as I am aware there is no vote this evening but I

:03:59. > :04:04.shall be scrutinising it closely over the two or three days `nd

:04:05. > :04:10.putting amendments forward. We should never assume that we know

:04:11. > :04:16.what the people of Wales want. On matters as important as this

:04:17. > :04:20.settlement, that will affect me and my children and my children's

:04:21. > :04:24.children long into the future, we cannot afford to get this wrong

:04:25. > :04:30.Above all, that is why this devolution settlement should be one

:04:31. > :04:36.that at its heart has accountability and democracy as its foundations.

:04:37. > :04:40.Without such strong pillars to build the settlement, we cannot expect the

:04:41. > :04:44.structure to hold and as we have seen in Scotland recently, we can

:04:45. > :04:49.come dangerously close to a total collapse if it is not right. So does

:04:50. > :04:54.it uphold what I would suggdst to be the settlement Wales wants `nd

:04:55. > :04:59.needs? I would first like to look at the timing of the bill. At the front

:05:00. > :05:02.bench will no doubt be award, the Welsh affairs select committee

:05:03. > :05:07.looked long and hard into the draft Wales Bill. Many hours over many

:05:08. > :05:11.months were dedicated to its detail and I was very pleased to bd part of

:05:12. > :05:15.that committee and was gratdful for the time we were allocated. While it

:05:16. > :05:20.appears we were given plentx of time to look into the particulars of the

:05:21. > :05:25.draft bill, the bill in is today manages to include some important

:05:26. > :05:29.clauses that we were not asked to consider as a committee. For the

:05:30. > :05:34.hours we spent a scrutinising the draft bill, we spend them on issues

:05:35. > :05:40.contained in that bill not hn this bill. And grateful to the sdcretary

:05:41. > :05:45.of state for the conventions when he was in the Wales Office, thd current

:05:46. > :05:49.secretary of state for the dvidence and assistance that they gave to our

:05:50. > :05:53.committee and report. Howevdr, with the about turn on the need for a

:05:54. > :05:55.referendum on the devolution of tax-raising powers and the new

:05:56. > :06:01.commitment to allow the abolition of the Welsh Assembly for a referendum

:06:02. > :06:03.squeezing their way into thhs bill, it is disappointing that thd

:06:04. > :06:07.committee has not been given a chance to look at these isstes in

:06:08. > :06:10.depth the issues which underlined the whole bill and have enormous

:06:11. > :06:18.consequences for the people of Wales. More time would have been

:06:19. > :06:20.welcomed by many members of the committee to look into thesd

:06:21. > :06:25.important changes to the Constitution of Welsh devolttion but

:06:26. > :06:29.we are to be denied this ch`nce by the apparent rushing of the bill.

:06:30. > :06:34.Moving to the substance of the devolution settlement, it w`s in

:06:35. > :06:37.looking over the Wales Bill that I felt the most sympathy for one of

:06:38. > :06:46.the Welsh affairs committee bowled witnesses. Professor Richard Wyn

:06:47. > :06:50.Jones, who said that one of our sessions, to read this bill you have

:06:51. > :06:54.to have a copy of the 2006 `ct and a towel doused in cold water wrapped

:06:55. > :06:59.around your head and you have to compare the legislation as `

:07:00. > :07:04.constitution for Wales, it hs not user friendly. Nevertheless, like

:07:05. > :07:11.many in this chamber, I persevered and found many surprises. Close to a

:07:12. > :07:16.part three struck me from the first page and I will not go throtgh each

:07:17. > :07:20.clause. It said that the Welsh government are not to be abolished

:07:21. > :07:25.except on the basis of a decision by the people of Wales voting hn a

:07:26. > :07:31.referendum. I was heartened for I believe this was going to bd true

:07:32. > :07:35.democracy in this bill, the people being given the chance to abolish

:07:36. > :07:39.the assembly if they so wished. I was so encouraged, only to find that

:07:40. > :07:43.when I turned the page, no instruction on how this refdrendum

:07:44. > :07:48.was to be triggered, only the next clause. I would hope that the

:07:49. > :07:52.foundations of accountability and democracy were to be upheld but it

:07:53. > :07:57.seems that part was missing. Why not hold in the bill the referendum

:07:58. > :08:05.could be triggered by a pethtion of the people? Looking at the recent

:08:06. > :08:09.assembly elections, the abolish the assembly party achieved a ddcent

:08:10. > :08:12.share from a standing start and I have been approached by othdrs to

:08:13. > :08:21.say they would have lent thd party Debord if they believed if ht made

:08:22. > :08:29.us in when spinster listen ,- there vote if they believed it made us in

:08:30. > :08:34.Westminster listen. I was sorry not to see this in the Bill and believed

:08:35. > :08:36.that this provision falls upon thing short of providing that key

:08:37. > :08:41.Democratic pillar on which this settlement should be built. I would

:08:42. > :08:48.like to touch on the applic`tion of this devolved settlement. L`st night

:08:49. > :08:55.I was sat up in bed, Wales Bill by my side and a copy of our m`nifesto

:08:56. > :08:59.open at pages 70 and 71 and I am sure you will all know what is in

:09:00. > :09:04.that but I will remind you that it was the section on Wales's

:09:05. > :09:08.devolution settlement. I had a highlighter ready to mark e`ch

:09:09. > :09:11.commitment that myself and honourable friends stood on the game

:09:12. > :09:20.election to this house. I wdnt through each point. Introducing the

:09:21. > :09:26.Wales Bill. Check. Implementing arch of the Silk report. Check. Devolving

:09:27. > :09:31.the assembly name. Check. Preserving police and justice matters. Check.

:09:32. > :09:38.Introducing a funding floor for the Welsh government once it has called

:09:39. > :09:44.a referendum tax raising powers My highlighter was ready and w`iting,

:09:45. > :09:47.my eyes scanned swiftly across the document, my hands turning the

:09:48. > :09:54.Pages, eagerly awaiting the commitment I had mentioned so many

:09:55. > :10:00.times on the doorstep. Clause 1 went by, 14, 15 and then it hit me,

:10:01. > :10:03.clause 16. I checked our manifesto again, I checked the bill and there

:10:04. > :10:06.it was in black and white, ` commitment to give the Welsh

:10:07. > :10:14.Assembly tax-raising powers without a referendum. This was further

:10:15. > :10:16.disappointment that the pillar of democracy which I believe otr

:10:17. > :10:23.settlement should be built on is missing from this bill. The

:10:24. > :10:28.Secretary of State himself said in his op-ed for this bill in the first

:10:29. > :10:31.reading that Welsh men and women want sensible legislation that

:10:32. > :10:36.reflects their priorities and allows them to live under laws of their own

:10:37. > :10:41.choosing. Why is it that Welsh people do not get to choose a

:10:42. > :10:46.legislation they want to live under? Why is it that their voice hs being

:10:47. > :10:51.silenced on this issue? Why is it that the Welsh people are ddnied a

:10:52. > :10:55.say? Could it be that referdndum is really are going out of fashion

:10:56. > :11:00.Surely the whole idea of devolution was to move power out of Whhtehall

:11:01. > :11:05.and closer to the people, when they wanted it, and I agreed with that.

:11:06. > :11:08.It has been said by many political pundits that Cardiff Bay is the most

:11:09. > :11:15.centralising government in Durope and quite often constituents in my

:11:16. > :11:20.constituency feel that Cardhff Bay is far more remote than Westminster.

:11:21. > :11:25.So why have powers moved from one government to another when our

:11:26. > :11:30.constituents are either missing out altogether or being doubly burdened?

:11:31. > :11:36.Finally, and I am sure you `re glad I'm coming to a close, I must stress

:11:37. > :11:40.that, in principle, I'm not against the devolution of further powers to

:11:41. > :11:49.any assembly, any Maher, local authority or government. -- Mayor. I

:11:50. > :11:56.have no problem with devolution of powers, in fact I often think of it

:11:57. > :12:00.is a good thing, where it works My concern lies with the ability of the

:12:01. > :12:05.Welsh Assembly to take on the extra powers outlined in this bill and

:12:06. > :12:10.utilise them in a competent and constructive way. Particularly at

:12:11. > :12:16.this time of no overall majority. We have already heard so eloqudntly, my

:12:17. > :12:24.icon or friend from Clwyd Wdst about evolving energy wind provishon - my

:12:25. > :12:29.right honourable friend. And it was said that he was scaremongering but

:12:30. > :12:35.I can assure you that the prospect of having more pylons in Brdcon

:12:36. > :12:41.really is scaring my constituents and it is a serious worry that I

:12:42. > :12:47.think will be taken lightly by the Welsh Assembly. Taking further

:12:48. > :12:49.examples, health. The Labour and was assembly government have so far

:12:50. > :12:54.presented over a fall in re`l terms spending on the NHS in Wales.

:12:55. > :12:58.Waiting times are through the roof with some people reregisterhng in

:12:59. > :13:03.England just to be seen by ` doctor in a reasonable time. And L`st

:13:04. > :13:10.targets are constantly missdd, A target missed and no implemdntation

:13:11. > :13:20.of a Cancer Drugs Fund to s`ve lives. -- ambulance targets. School

:13:21. > :13:23.in my local area are closing because of cuts in government settldment

:13:24. > :13:27.from the bus assembly and their outright rejection of the excellent

:13:28. > :13:34.academies programme that is being rolled out across England and this

:13:35. > :13:38.makes no sense to me. In terms of the points he has raised just now,

:13:39. > :13:43.that is to do with government decisions are supposed to bd

:13:44. > :13:46.deficient of devolution will stop when he accused me of accushng his

:13:47. > :13:49.right honourable friend of scaremongering, I did not s`y that

:13:50. > :13:55.and perhaps he could inform us how many of those products in powers

:13:56. > :14:01.were above the 50 megawatts level? The question I would answer is how

:14:02. > :14:07.many will be if we have Welsh devolution on this matter. The third

:14:08. > :14:12.and final point, agriculturd. The was assembly is not hearing the

:14:13. > :14:17.voices of those of us in rural areas. They have substantially cut

:14:18. > :14:21.the agricultural budget, taken the maximum support payment frol our

:14:22. > :14:24.farmers and until a month ago did not even allowed agriculturd,

:14:25. > :14:29.environment and rural affairs of full place around the Cabindt table.

:14:30. > :14:33.This is the same assembly that spent nearly ?50,000 on a wind turbine

:14:34. > :14:38.that generated ?5 of energy before being switched off. The samd

:14:39. > :14:44.assembly who, when given thd Independent living fund frol the

:14:45. > :14:48.DWP... I'm afraid I must insist that he says government rather than

:14:49. > :14:53.assembly, it is the Labour government taking these dechsions,

:14:54. > :14:58.not the assembly itself. It is not the fault of the assembly as such.

:14:59. > :15:02.My honourable friend is quite right and I stated that early in ly speech

:15:03. > :15:05.but I would say it is collective responsibility down there and the

:15:06. > :15:12.assembly government making those decisions. To finish on my point,

:15:13. > :15:15.the same assembly, who went given the independent living fund from the

:15:16. > :15:21.DW play, passed it on the local councils but not before takhng a

:15:22. > :15:25.so-called administration be -- DWP. This cost the adult social care

:15:26. > :15:31.budget copybook in Mike constituency ?49,000. Devolving further powers

:15:32. > :15:37.before the was assembly can prove they can utilise the powers they

:15:38. > :15:40.already have is just like hhring the same cowboy builder who build you a

:15:41. > :15:46.structurally unsafe house to come back and build the extension. It is

:15:47. > :15:51.unsound to make the assumpthon that piling more pricks on top of a

:15:52. > :15:58.wobbly tower will make it sturdier. It does not make sense and surely it

:15:59. > :16:03.is not the pillar of accountability. Can I congratulate him on rdading

:16:04. > :16:08.his party's manifesto? That is a very brave step to make. Seriously,

:16:09. > :16:13.we have had an assembly election and his party went from second to third.

:16:14. > :16:18.Is he arguing, because he dhd say he wants to bring power closer to the

:16:19. > :16:26.people, for more powers for local authorities? That would in some way

:16:27. > :16:31.devolve power within Wales. As much as it saddens me, I actuallx quite

:16:32. > :16:35.agree with the honourable gdntleman. From record so far, it would be

:16:36. > :16:37.better to have devolution to local authorities rather than the eight

:16:38. > :16:45.centralised government in C`rdiff Bay. I'm grateful for the

:16:46. > :16:51.intervention and I would like to follow on from the point th`t the

:16:52. > :16:55.honourable member for Ynys Lon has made. Devolving to look govdrnment

:16:56. > :16:59.is fine and the British govdrnment has developed planning to local

:17:00. > :17:03.authorities and the first thing the was government did was take that

:17:04. > :17:06.away from local authorities and centralise it to itself so what we

:17:07. > :17:11.have is planning with local authorities in England and

:17:12. > :17:18.centralised in Cardiff in W`les I think he makes a valid point. As I

:17:19. > :17:21.have said all the way through, centralisation of this government in

:17:22. > :17:26.Cardiff Bay come it is not devolution to the people of Wales

:17:27. > :17:30.and I'm afraid that sadly bx devolving further powers at this

:17:31. > :17:32.time when they are not capable of handling the powers they have got,

:17:33. > :17:46.it is a bad way forward. Just in relation to the last

:17:47. > :17:50.intervention, the last time I went to the planning committee they

:17:51. > :17:56.seemed to have some planning powers. Why don't they show some respect to

:17:57. > :18:04.the people of Wales have of five occasions elected Labour to the

:18:05. > :18:10.Assembly? On the important latter is that they have elected the largest

:18:11. > :18:15.party, not the majority party. They have reached Government just by - is

:18:16. > :18:26.it a coalition with it is that a merger? So is now the time to pass

:18:27. > :18:31.them more powers? So Madam Deputy Speaker, there you have it. I ask

:18:32. > :18:36.only for a devolution settldment that allows a Wales to decide is own

:18:37. > :18:39.destiny, future and players part in the United Kingdom, all built on the

:18:40. > :18:47.firmest of foundations, foundations of accountability and democracy

:18:48. > :18:51.Let's give Wales desired devolution, not disappointment. A settldment,

:18:52. > :18:58.not a setback. But most of `ll, let's give real democracy to Wales.

:18:59. > :19:05.Mark Williams. Thank you for the opportunity to say a few words, not

:19:06. > :19:09.least after that tour de force, and I assured him no merger. A liberal

:19:10. > :19:15.voice may be somewhat more luted these days, but it is still there.

:19:16. > :19:18.If there was ever a case to have a clear and understandable devolution

:19:19. > :19:21.settlement, it was on the b`sis of what some of the honourable

:19:22. > :19:24.gentleman said. That need to differentiate between Government and

:19:25. > :19:29.Government decisions, and the decisions made by the Assembly,

:19:30. > :19:34.which is what this debate is all about. So many of the issues the

:19:35. > :19:39.honourable gentleman talked about where, yes, the domain of the

:19:40. > :19:50.political debate that was no doubt had in need of -- in the villages

:19:51. > :19:58.and holes, and Daisy with great respect that the people of Brecon

:19:59. > :20:05.and Radnor sure made clear what the wanted. A party that has always

:20:06. > :20:12.remained committed to extending home rule within Britain. I want to

:20:13. > :20:18.endorse what the honourable member said in his remarks at the start,

:20:19. > :20:22.that the history of devoluthon has been attributed many people and many

:20:23. > :20:26.political parties. It will not, the surprise for the House to hdar that

:20:27. > :20:30.I think Liberal Democrat fingerprints, perhaps the dded and

:20:31. > :20:36.jaded now, where on the earlier stages of this process, with the

:20:37. > :20:42.creation of the Silk commission its reports of the sole responshbility,

:20:43. > :20:48.and then the second report dndorsing the reserved powers model. H very

:20:49. > :20:51.much welcome that work, and the work by the previous Labour Government as

:20:52. > :20:57.well, which is now in this bill the gun again to bear some fruit. -

:20:58. > :21:05.begun again to bear fruit. Laybe things went out of kilter

:21:06. > :21:09.thereafter, and the wave of nostalgia about the coalition should

:21:10. > :21:14.end no. But the Saint Davids Day agreement followed that. We saw the

:21:15. > :21:18.introduction of the draft W`les bills objected to that great

:21:19. > :21:23.scrutiny under the great stdwardship of the member from Monmouth on our

:21:24. > :21:27.Welsh affairs select committee, the extensive scrutiny we undertook I

:21:28. > :21:30.do not want to dwell on the inadequacies of the draft bhll other

:21:31. > :21:38.than to say that our scrutiny was very thorough and detailed, and the

:21:39. > :21:41.overwhelming response from civil society, from people most political

:21:42. > :21:47.parties from the Welsh Government was that that draft bill was best

:21:48. > :21:53.and at worst had a stifling effect on the quest that many of us have

:21:54. > :21:57.for meaningful, clear, transparent devolution. And I repeat, mx party

:21:58. > :22:07.has always believed in the hdealism that I think the honourable member

:22:08. > :22:09.was alluding to. Home rule for Wales within an aspirin federal Britain.

:22:10. > :22:18.We have argued for some... H will give way. It always amazes le that

:22:19. > :22:24.liberal Democrats, and I have the greatest respect for the honourable

:22:25. > :22:33.gentleman, use the phrase home rule in this context, because a home rule

:22:34. > :22:37.failed and led to the break,up, Ireland leaving the United Kingdom.

:22:38. > :22:41.Doesn't he think it would bd better to use a word that would conjure up

:22:42. > :22:46.an image of success within the United Kingdom rather than failure?

:22:47. > :22:49.The honourable gentleman max make his historical interpretations. I

:22:50. > :22:53.use the term home rule in the context of historical battlds,

:22:54. > :22:56.historic crusade towards self-government in Wales, evoking

:22:57. > :23:03.the memories that the honourable member for Newport West had of

:23:04. > :23:07.marching with his banners. H think it is the time that resonatds with

:23:08. > :23:11.people, if not, perhaps, thd honourable member for Wrexh`m. I

:23:12. > :23:15.don't think we are arguing for a different thing. We aspire to the

:23:16. > :23:20.same objective. We are danchng on the head of the proverbial pen.

:23:21. > :23:26.Possibly not. My big concern over the last few months is that the

:23:27. > :23:31.previous legislation may have been kicked into the proverbial long

:23:32. > :23:35.grass, or some kind of cul-de-sac. I stand corrected by that, and commend

:23:36. > :23:39.the Secretary of State and has officials for the alacrity `nd

:23:40. > :23:46.speed. Two goes all by surprise last week or the week beford, that

:23:47. > :23:50.we would be here today. I thank him for the opportunity informally to

:23:51. > :23:58.raise some concerns and ask questions often directly in the last

:23:59. > :24:04.few days. Notwithstanding that, there are aspects of this bhll that

:24:05. > :24:09.should not be rushed, and h`s been concern raised about that speed It

:24:10. > :24:12.is fundamentally important that this bill is given the sufficient

:24:13. > :24:16.opportunity to be properly scrutinise. I hope officials will be

:24:17. > :24:19.there in consultation and discussions with civil and political

:24:20. > :24:23.parties and Welsh Government to ensure we have a workable bhll and

:24:24. > :24:33.that builders retain and buhld widespread support. -- that bill

:24:34. > :24:38.retains and build support. H think I was the only other person in the

:24:39. > :24:45.room with the representativds, the former Plaid Cymru leader, the

:24:46. > :24:51.former Secretary of State, having those discussions on St Davhd's Day.

:24:52. > :24:54.I remember the first meeting, I reminded the Secretary of State I

:24:55. > :25:00.would be talking and discussing our meetings with my colleagues in

:25:01. > :25:05.Cardiff Bay. That our discussions, for of setting and isolation around

:25:06. > :25:10.that big table in a big offhce Inglewood house, should not be seen

:25:11. > :25:16.in isolation. I do not belidve those discussions were as inclusive as

:25:17. > :25:19.they should have been. Cross-party, cross parliamentary collaboration

:25:20. > :25:25.will be the key to this bill succeeding as discussions proceed if

:25:26. > :25:32.a durable, permanent settlelent that we wish to see is secured. Where are

:25:33. > :25:37.the St David's Day talks an attempt to move the agenda on? Yes, they

:25:38. > :25:42.wear, and indeed they have loved the agenda on. But inevitably, hf you

:25:43. > :25:48.allow for a veto from any one of the four bridges the -- participants,

:25:49. > :25:57.you risk stopping discussion in its tracks, and that is how it was as

:25:58. > :26:00.item by item we went through every one of the Silk Commission's

:26:01. > :26:05.recommendations. Hands up if you agree, hands down if you don't.

:26:06. > :26:09.1-person projects, the issud was not pursued. When people talk about the

:26:10. > :26:13.advancement of the debate bx the lowest common to nominate, they are

:26:14. > :26:18.correct. It was very, very dasy to stop aspects of Silk's

:26:19. > :26:23.recommendations. I see that as someone whose party was one of the

:26:24. > :26:27.first parties, my friends in Plaid Cymru may have been there jtst

:26:28. > :26:31.before us, who endorsed all of what Silk said in his second report. I am

:26:32. > :26:38.grateful to the honourable gentleman for a given way. I am going to spill

:26:39. > :26:45.the beans today and say who was the biggest culprit in raising hands. --

:26:46. > :26:49.will he spilled the beans? H'm sure he will not expect me to answer that

:26:50. > :26:52.question. I'm sure his sources implies Cymru will have givdn him

:26:53. > :27:00.the answer already. Despite best intentions, I think the way in which

:27:01. > :27:07.the structure was was going to feel from the outset. Now, the bhll. To

:27:08. > :27:10.start at the beginning, it hs welcome but not surprising that

:27:11. > :27:15.clause one recognises the pdrmanence of the National Assembly, and though

:27:16. > :27:18.the honourable member has told us the detail of a referendum to

:27:19. > :27:25.abolish the Assembly is not there, and I am pleased about that, it does

:27:26. > :27:27.establish the principle that the only way we could ever abolhsh the

:27:28. > :27:31.National Assembly is through the consent of the Welsh people through

:27:32. > :27:41.a referendum. The recent National Assembly elections were not, it will

:27:42. > :27:47.come as no surprise, a stunning success for my party. But they were

:27:48. > :27:54.less stunning for the abolish the Welsh Assembly party. Whatever our

:27:55. > :27:58.concerns, there is, with ond or two exceptions perhaps, and accdpted

:27:59. > :28:02.recognition that our Assembly is here to stay. Importantly in clause

:28:03. > :28:06.one, there is that new and specific recognition of Welsh law, and I

:28:07. > :28:09.quote, there is a body of Wdlsh law made by the Assembly and Welsh

:28:10. > :28:14.ministers. The first time that recognition has existed. It is, of

:28:15. > :28:20.course, welcome, but it must not end there. If the honourable melber for

:28:21. > :28:25.Brecon and Radnor sure was tempted to vote against the Governmdnt, the

:28:26. > :28:31.front bench can take some assurance that I would be likely to go through

:28:32. > :28:36.the lobby with them. But with significant caveats, with

:28:37. > :28:42.significant provisos, I do not know how much power is solitary Liberal

:28:43. > :28:46.Democrats have these days. H would be supporting the bill at this

:28:47. > :28:55.point, but on the proviso that certain things would change. I will

:28:56. > :28:57.give way. I'm sure the minister and the Secretary of State is absolutely

:28:58. > :29:01.overjoyed at the fact the Lhberal Democrats will be joining the

:29:02. > :29:05.Conservatives, once again, hn fact, just like the last five years. It

:29:06. > :29:11.was remiss of me not to congratulate my neighbour as the new leader of

:29:12. > :29:17.the Welsh Liberals, and the last person standing in the Welsh Liberal

:29:18. > :29:23.party. Was I hearing partictlar Liberals speak when you

:29:24. > :29:27.congratulated, you regard to have a possibility and a clause in the bill

:29:28. > :29:33.for devolving the Welsh Assdmbly, but you are not happy to have the

:29:34. > :29:36.mechanism in there. Surely Liberals nowadays like to give Wales and to

:29:37. > :29:44.give people the democratic right that they should have? I thhnk the

:29:45. > :29:52.acknowledgement there is reference in the bill should satisfy the

:29:53. > :29:55.honourable member, and we look forward, village mac to the detail

:29:56. > :30:01.and that when the schedule that the honourable member will put forward

:30:02. > :30:08.in the bill. He may be helphng the 4.5% of people that voted for the

:30:09. > :30:17.Abolish The Welsh Assembly party in their cause. But we will sed. I want

:30:18. > :30:25.to talk about the issue of distinct jurisdiction, and there is, I think,

:30:26. > :30:28.concern, and the Secretary of State has gone in part along the ridge to

:30:29. > :30:33.addressing it, there is a concern that the reference to a distinct

:30:34. > :30:37.Welsh legal jurisdiction in the bill does seem, I think, pointless in

:30:38. > :30:43.referring to a body of law without addressing the jurisdiction issue.

:30:44. > :30:49.With the growing body of Welsh specific law that will emerge, this

:30:50. > :30:55.seems to be necessary if thd bill is to provide a proper and long-term

:30:56. > :31:00.settlement. Like others, I don't want to be back here if I al lucky

:31:01. > :31:06.enough to be here in five ydars or ten years, or wherever many years,

:31:07. > :31:12.having would it be the fifth Wales Bill. But I make the petition this

:31:13. > :31:16.issue will not go away. -- the prediction. The Secretary of State

:31:17. > :31:20.should be mindful of that. He is parked my father by the cre`tion of

:31:21. > :31:24.the working group, and I am grateful for that, but I believe even if

:31:25. > :31:29.backbenchers from the Secretary of State's own party will be grinding

:31:30. > :31:33.verity at the thought of anx changes to the judicial system, I think

:31:34. > :31:37.there needs to be great or acknowledgement that this issue will

:31:38. > :31:42.not go away. -- grinding thdir teeth. I want to move on to clause

:31:43. > :31:46.ten, and the issue of necessity test. That was a great issud of

:31:47. > :31:49.concern as everybody on this site has alluded to. There were

:31:50. > :31:54.legitimate concerns that thhs would be used to curb the National

:31:55. > :31:59.Assembly. True or false, th`t was the perception. I am glad to see

:32:00. > :32:03.movement on this, and while it does remain in part, because the 70 test

:32:04. > :32:07.will be justified for cross,border and reserved matters, I'm glad to

:32:08. > :32:12.see the extent to which had has gone. It does seem to be replaced,

:32:13. > :32:14.and I cautiously use that word, by the introduction of the Justice

:32:15. > :32:20.impact assessment undertaken by the Welsh Government. In the sphrit of

:32:21. > :32:37.devolution, the bill says, hn the way they see fit, though I'l...

:32:38. > :32:45.Quite where that assessment goes, I am unsure.

:32:46. > :32:52.What would take the invent ,- intervention powers of the secretary

:32:53. > :32:59.of state to be enacted, I'm still not sure. What would set thd Trail

:33:00. > :33:04.of mechanism to go to the Stpreme Court, something we want to avoid,

:33:05. > :33:08.I'm not sure. I wrote this before I heard the Secretary of Statd's

:33:09. > :33:13.speech at the start and he reassured us it will not go anywhere so it

:33:14. > :33:17.begs the question why we ard having it if the National Assembly can

:33:18. > :33:22.pursue this device through their own standing orders. I seek the

:33:23. > :33:24.reassurance again from the Parliamentary undersecretarx in the

:33:25. > :33:29.summing up from the front bdnch that there is nothing sinister for

:33:30. > :33:36.devolutionists like me and others on both sides should be concerned

:33:37. > :33:42.about. Is there any need for this provision given that the assembly,

:33:43. > :33:46.according to the First Minister has the capacity to introduce ilpact

:33:47. > :33:49.assessment of their own? I welcome that there will be a joint justice

:33:50. > :33:54.in Wales working group to look into this and other judicial matters and

:33:55. > :34:00.establish the protocol on jtdicial arrangements. The to quote the

:34:01. > :34:03.objective of the group, to provide clear and efficient administrative

:34:04. > :34:08.arrangements for justice in Wales reflect the distinctiveness, I'm

:34:09. > :34:15.surprised the Wales Office `llowed that word because we ought `gainst

:34:16. > :34:20.distinct and separation, thdy used it in the remit the distinctiveness

:34:21. > :34:23.of Wales and the distinct body of Welsh law within the England and

:34:24. > :34:30.Wales justice system. I look forward to the report, if there will be

:34:31. > :34:34.opportunities to come to thd house or report to the Secretary of State

:34:35. > :34:39.who will answer our questions on that, I do think it is concdrning

:34:40. > :34:43.that this chamber will not see the outcome of that work before the bill

:34:44. > :34:49.goes to the other house. Yot may think that I can't have it both

:34:50. > :34:53.ways, the working group and a speedy bill, but I reflect on the puality

:34:54. > :34:57.of the debate we could have on these matters is the body of expertise,

:34:58. > :35:00.all the officials reaching conclusions together and we don t

:35:01. > :35:10.have an opportunity to respond to that. But I'm glad because Paul silk

:35:11. > :35:17.in recommendation 28th in hhs report said that he believed we should be

:35:18. > :35:21.having a review within ten xears if the case of devolving ledges to the

:35:22. > :35:27.responsibility for the court service and the judiciary to the National

:35:28. > :35:31.Assembly. A broad remit of this working group, maybe I can be

:35:32. > :35:36.assured again that these thhngs could be looked at by the working

:35:37. > :35:41.group and if that is the case, the Secretary of State would have

:35:42. > :35:49.trumped Paul Silk in terms of time scales which is to be welcoled. I

:35:50. > :35:58.will conclude in a moment, the bulk of this relates to schedule two and

:35:59. > :36:05.the detail of the reserved latters. David Melvin tells us we're down to

:36:06. > :36:12.200 reservations which is of course a move in the right direction but

:36:13. > :36:16.not quite the bonfires of reservations that some of us would

:36:17. > :36:21.have hoped for. A reserved powers model will inevitably involve a list

:36:22. > :36:25.and we are told that 15 to 20 reservations might have been taken

:36:26. > :36:33.out of the bill. Three more have been added. My maths tells le that

:36:34. > :36:40.is up to 17th in our directhon. But the three added reservations are the

:36:41. > :36:43.Severn Crossing, prostitution and heating and cooling systems and

:36:44. > :36:46.perhaps he could enlighten ts on the rationale of those three in

:36:47. > :36:52.particular. I would also be interested to hear more of the

:36:53. > :36:55.process, how the process was undertaken by the Wales Offhce and

:36:56. > :37:00.the extent of that consultation on deciding those reservations will

:37:01. > :37:04.stop the select committee w`s clear in the recommendations, sayhng that

:37:05. > :37:09.the Wales Office should go back and start again. Did that happen? I

:37:10. > :37:17.rather doubt it given the thme frame of our reports and the inception of

:37:18. > :37:24.this bill. But we are where we are. And this bill does represent a

:37:25. > :37:30.significant move forward. I would not be as churlish to suggest that

:37:31. > :37:35.the last year has wasted thd opportunity is of the work of Paul

:37:36. > :37:39.Silk, the limits of the St David's Day agreement because much has been

:37:40. > :37:43.learned on the back of the unfortunate draft legislation that

:37:44. > :37:47.followed. At least it has told the government and many in this house

:37:48. > :37:55.that this issue is important and devolution will not go away. If we

:37:56. > :38:00.are to achieve a lasting settlement, the government does need to do

:38:01. > :38:04.better, consult widely and respond and, to a degree, they have done

:38:05. > :38:08.that so I will give this bill cautious support but on the

:38:09. > :38:13.understanding that the work of that working group is not a peripheral

:38:14. > :38:19.thing, it is important. Thehr work will enhance our deep -- delocratic

:38:20. > :38:24.process is not inhibit them. I noticed last week that the Wales

:38:25. > :38:32.Office, in a press release, stated, " the Wales Bill is in the finest

:38:33. > :38:42.traditions of Welsh radical reformers like Lloyd George..."

:38:43. > :38:46.Neither I nor anybody in thd Wales Office I suspect have had the

:38:47. > :38:54.benefit of Lloyd George's whsdom, literally or spiritually. The

:38:55. > :38:59.nearest I got to Lloyd George was having tea with one of his

:39:00. > :39:03.daughters. Notwithstanding what the minister has said about the need for

:39:04. > :39:07.cross-party consensus and I wish him well on that, I suspect my party's

:39:08. > :39:14.agenda for these things rather more than the government's is in June

:39:15. > :39:19.with the thinking of David Lloyd George.

:39:20. > :39:25.Can I begin by saying what ` pleasure it is to follow my

:39:26. > :39:31.honourable friend and neighbour from Ceredigion, and he is not even

:39:32. > :39:38.listening to me when I'm congratulating him on the qtality of

:39:39. > :39:42.his speech! It is a pleasurd also to have been in the chamber for most of

:39:43. > :39:49.the debate and to have heard sometimes quite strong opinhons but

:39:50. > :39:52.delivered in a very reasonable way and it has been a constructhve

:39:53. > :40:00.debate and pretty enjoyable. I was pleased to see a Wales Bill in the

:40:01. > :40:03.gracious speech. Every Queens speech since I have been a member of this

:40:04. > :40:11.house has contained a Wales Bill and when I heard the Right Honotrable

:40:12. > :40:15.member earlier saying we did not have many opportunities to look at

:40:16. > :40:19.the Constitution of Wales and change it, I think we have won pretty well

:40:20. > :40:25.every year. I don't know if we will have one next year, it is a matter

:40:26. > :40:31.for the Secretary of State. There's been a fair degree of agreelent

:40:32. > :40:36.across the house in that I sent everybody wants to support the bill.

:40:37. > :40:40.Clearly many members will w`nt some changes but generally everybody is

:40:41. > :40:45.supportive and want to see ht carried through into legisl`tion. I

:40:46. > :40:48.was surprised by the speed `t which the second reading came and it is

:40:49. > :40:52.obvious to me that the Secrdtary of State is a man of action and a man

:40:53. > :40:57.in a hurry because it is only a matter of a few days that wd first

:40:58. > :41:03.knew there would be a Wales Bill. There are two objectives. The

:41:04. > :41:08.secretary of State told us there were two objectives he had hn

:41:09. > :41:15.bringing the bill forward. One was clarity and the other

:41:16. > :41:18.accountability. If they are the two objectives that form the most

:41:19. > :41:27.significant parts of the spdech today. He also said he would hope

:41:28. > :41:31.that we could end permanently the squabbling between the Welsh

:41:32. > :41:35.government and the UK Government and that we have a permanent settlement.

:41:36. > :41:41.I wish him the best of luck with that because I would be surprised if

:41:42. > :41:48.we Welsh manage to stop squ`bbling. Clarity is a key part of thhs bill.

:41:49. > :41:56.The chairman of the select committee who spoke earlier, I was opposed to

:41:57. > :42:03.devolution in 1997 and indedd I campaigned against it and voted

:42:04. > :42:07.against it but I was on the losing side and a National Assemblx for

:42:08. > :42:11.Wales was set up and I becale a member of it and was for eight

:42:12. > :42:19.years. One of the reasons I was opposed at that time was th`t there

:42:20. > :42:24.was an obvious lack of cert`inty and clarity about how the devolttion

:42:25. > :42:34.process would develop. It dhd not seem to be stable or somethhng that

:42:35. > :42:38.could last. The lead of the Conservative Party in Wales at that

:42:39. > :42:42.time, although opposed to devolution, one of the reasons he

:42:43. > :42:46.had was that he did not see it having any form of certaintx and

:42:47. > :42:49.there was a leading Labour Party member at the time who described it

:42:50. > :42:57.as a magical mystery tour whth no obvious end. I think it was

:42:58. > :43:02.suggested that the end might have been Alton Towers earlier on. But

:43:03. > :43:06.the truth is we don't know `nd I'm still not convinced, even whth this

:43:07. > :43:13.bill, that we can ever actu`lly reached the end in terms of

:43:14. > :43:15.constitutional settlements. There will always be debate and changes

:43:16. > :43:19.and maybe one day in the future there might be a Wales Bill that

:43:20. > :43:26.reduces the amount of power to the assembly, who knows. I becale chair

:43:27. > :43:32.of the legislation committed in the national assembly quite early on and

:43:33. > :43:36.it was partly through my experience that I became convinced that we

:43:37. > :43:40.needed to have a reserved model rather than a conferred powdrs model

:43:41. > :43:45.and that all power should bd devolved unless there was a very

:43:46. > :43:50.good reason not to pull the that has informed my attitude towards

:43:51. > :43:54.devolution ever since. If something can reasonably and sensibly be

:43:55. > :43:59.devolved, I think it should be and move to a reserved model delivers

:44:00. > :44:04.that and that is a more perlanent settlement, much less likelx to lead

:44:05. > :44:16.two visits to the Supreme Court or arguments. That is one of the two

:44:17. > :44:21.fundamental drivers behind this bill and one of the issues that lake me

:44:22. > :44:26.so keen to see it go through. The second is more controversial,

:44:27. > :44:29.accountability. And particularly financial accountability. I know

:44:30. > :44:33.there is some disagreement, certainly on our side of thd house,

:44:34. > :44:41.on this issue but I became convinced many years ago that responshbility

:44:42. > :44:45.for significant levels of income tax was absolutely crucial if the Welsh

:44:46. > :44:51.Assembly was to become an accountable body and a body that

:44:52. > :44:57.engaged with the people of Wales at election time. People could look at

:44:58. > :45:03.both sides of the ledger, how you spent and raised your money, and

:45:04. > :45:07.when I first took that view and espoused it publicly, there were not

:45:08. > :45:13.many in my own party who agreed with me. It has been consistentlx and

:45:14. > :45:16.solidly my opinion ever since and it is as strong today as ever. At the

:45:17. > :45:24.last election, there were qtestions raised about my position at the last

:45:25. > :45:29.election. I said clearly th`t my view was that we should devote a

:45:30. > :45:34.significant proportion of income tax, probably 50%, the abilhty to

:45:35. > :45:38.levy up to 50% should be devolved and until it was, I could not see

:45:39. > :45:43.how the Welsh Assembly could be seen or the Welsh government could be

:45:44. > :45:50.seen as a parliament. Part of this bill is giving the Welsh government

:45:51. > :45:53.or the Welsh Assembly the n`me of Parliament. How can you havd a

:45:54. > :46:01.Parliament that doesn't havd the ability to raise tax? To levy tax?

:46:02. > :46:05.But most important -- the most important fact that people

:46:06. > :46:10.understand. Without that I think it cannot properly be described as a

:46:11. > :46:14.Parliament. And it has to bd income tax. We know already, we have heard

:46:15. > :46:23.other members referred to the ? .5 billion that is ready devolved to

:46:24. > :46:26.the National Assembly. It is income tax that engages people. Yot come to

:46:27. > :46:31.an assembly election and thd voters are looking at the parties, it is

:46:32. > :46:36.income tax and the weight in which it is levied that engages whth

:46:37. > :46:40.people and has them look not just at what people spend but the promises

:46:41. > :46:42.they make and how they will raise the money. It is crucial th`t we go

:46:43. > :46:51.down that road. 1.I want to touch on and it happened

:46:52. > :47:00.a number of times today and I always think it has been a weakness, how we

:47:01. > :47:04.assume the Welsh government is all was going to be a Labour government.

:47:05. > :47:11.It is not always good to be a Labour government. The Labour government in

:47:12. > :47:15.Cardiff, it is not the Welsh assembly that passes laws, ht is the

:47:16. > :47:19.Labour government that passds laws, and if we can properly engage with

:47:20. > :47:23.people at election time, and I think financial accountability is a key

:47:24. > :47:26.part in this, I think we can perhaps not have a Labour government and

:47:27. > :47:33.that we could have a genuind view amongst Welsh people that wd can

:47:34. > :47:38.have either one government, in particular the possibility of a

:47:39. > :47:42.Conservative government in Wales. There will be a lot of other debates

:47:43. > :47:47.about various other parts of this bill as well. One is alreadx

:47:48. > :47:55.referred to as a separate jurisdiction for Wales. A body of

:47:56. > :48:01.Welsh law is developing, a small body currently, but it is growing.

:48:02. > :48:07.It will be a long time until it is a significant body. I don't think it

:48:08. > :48:11.is justifiable to have a separate jurisdiction to deal with the

:48:12. > :48:17.limited amount of Welsh law we have. I can't find myself able to justify

:48:18. > :48:21.having a separate jurisdicthon from the current England and Walds

:48:22. > :48:26.jurisdiction. There has been a lot of debate about justice imp`ct

:48:27. > :48:29.assessments. We removed the necessity test, which I think what's

:48:30. > :48:34.important. Almost everybody thought that was the right thing to do. It

:48:35. > :48:37.seems unreasonable that there shouldn't be a mechanism within any

:48:38. > :48:46.institution to simply assess the impact that a lot of -- that was

:48:47. > :48:51.passed have on other institttions. The Welsh government when it passed

:48:52. > :48:57.legislation would have to assess itself on other legislation. I think

:48:58. > :49:01.that is entirely reasonable and I suspect every legislative body in

:49:02. > :49:07.the world does it so I can't really see why that should be an issue

:49:08. > :49:14.Policing is also an issue. @gain, it is maybe a view that I hold but I

:49:15. > :49:21.have never been in principld opposed to the devolution of policing but

:49:22. > :49:29.you cannot support the devolution of policing to Wales until there is a

:49:30. > :49:41.strong case for how it will be improved. I am grateful to the

:49:42. > :49:46.amateur -- honourable gentldman The reason I used was the helicopter

:49:47. > :49:50.service which we lost because policing was reserved. Helicopter

:49:51. > :49:58.services were not lost in Ireland and Scotland -- Northern Irdland. It

:49:59. > :50:07.was last in Wales, letting communities down. Can I takd an

:50:08. > :50:13.intervention somewhere else? I thought it might be helpful before

:50:14. > :50:20.my honourable friend replies to Plaid Cymru that to take note that

:50:21. > :50:22.the helicopter has not been lost and it would be a gross

:50:23. > :50:29.misrepresentation of the trtth to say that it has. That is ex`ctly

:50:30. > :50:35.what I was going to say. Thd one other issue I wanted to touch on is

:50:36. > :50:43.energy, the devolution of energy. We all pay a price. Whenever wd support

:50:44. > :50:49.a bill as calm presence of `s this, there are very often parts of the

:50:50. > :50:55.bill you are uncomfortable with Devolving the power of wind farms up

:50:56. > :51:01.to 350 megawatts to the Welsh government really sticks in my crop.

:51:02. > :51:08.It is a price I have to pay to support this bill. Perhaps `n

:51:09. > :51:12.intervention. I didn't make it clear what I meant. We know that the Welsh

:51:13. > :51:16.Labour government perhaps stpported by some of the other parties are

:51:17. > :51:25.hugely enthusiastic about covering mid Wales in wind turbines, wind

:51:26. > :51:28.farms and pylons. There has been a huge battle to try to stop ht but

:51:29. > :51:33.the Welsh government are kedn to do it. What happened on St Davhd's Day

:51:34. > :51:37.this year is that the UK Government passed powers over onshore wind to

:51:38. > :51:44.local government across England and Wales. In England they have the