11/07/2016

:00:00. > :00:11.centres is integrating the local services. Urgent question, Helen

:00:12. > :00:13.Goodman. I would like to ask the Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster

:00:14. > :00:16.if he would make a statement on whether or not the government will

:00:17. > :00:25.seek Parliamentary approval before triggering Article 50? The question

:00:26. > :00:29.of how to invoke Parliamentary discussion around triggering Article

:00:30. > :00:34.50 has two distinct assets, one legal and the other Democratic. To

:00:35. > :00:38.take the legal consideration first, everyone will be aware how about the

:00:39. > :00:41.debate about whether Article 50 can be done through the royal

:00:42. > :00:47.prerogative which is not legally parliamentary improvement approval,

:00:48. > :00:53.or if it would need a Parliamentary approval. I believe the lawyers to

:00:54. > :00:57.that highly paid dispute. The court case is already underway on this

:00:58. > :01:00.issue, so the judges may reach a different view, but I would remark

:01:01. > :01:06.that the government lawyers believe it is a royal prerogative issue. I

:01:07. > :01:09.hope everyone here will agree that democratic principles should I drank

:01:10. > :01:13.legal formalities. The Prime Minister has already said that

:01:14. > :01:17.Parliament will have a role and it is right that a decision as momento

:01:18. > :01:21.says this should be fully discussed in parliament. The precise format

:01:22. > :01:25.and timing of those debates and discussions will need to be agreed

:01:26. > :01:29.through the usual channels. I can't offer any more details today because

:01:30. > :01:33.the discussion simply haven't happened yet. I will venture a

:01:34. > :01:38.modest prediction that I strongly doubt they will be confined to a

:01:39. > :01:42.single debate or a single occasion. There will be many important issues

:01:43. > :01:45.about the timing and substance of different facets of the negotiations

:01:46. > :01:49.that the government, the opposition and the back fence business

:01:50. > :01:53.committee and maybe even you, Mr Speaker, will feel it is important

:01:54. > :01:57.to discuss. The details of which topics on what dates and the

:01:58. > :02:05.specific wording of the motions, we will have to wait and see. I thank

:02:06. > :02:10.the Minister for that reply. If the Royal prerogative is used to trigger

:02:11. > :02:14.Article 50, would this not be a clear breach of the promises made to

:02:15. > :02:21.the public during the referendum campaign by the Brexiters that they

:02:22. > :02:30.would take back control and restore Parliamentary sovereignty? Hike

:02:31. > :02:35.could it be right to mitigate negotiations with important and

:02:36. > :02:38.far-reaching significance for citizenship rights, immigration

:02:39. > :02:45.rules, employment and social rights, agriculture, trading relations with

:02:46. > :02:50.the EU, Scotland and Northern Ireland without seeking Parliament's

:02:51. > :02:55.approach to the aims, objectives and red lines? The issues at stake are

:02:56. > :03:02.the culmination of 40 years of legislation. Isn't epic strawberries

:03:03. > :03:08.to suggest that changes to these do not come back to the house?

:03:09. > :03:12.Trade-offs are extremely important to everyone living in the UK. Surely

:03:13. > :03:16.he is not suggesting they should be decided in Whitehall behind closed

:03:17. > :03:24.doors while Parliament is presented with a done deal? Isn't the

:03:25. > :03:28.Minister's inability to say hi Brexit will be negotiated a clear

:03:29. > :03:34.indication of the government's failure to do any contingency

:03:35. > :03:37.planning? Why is the Chancellor of the Duchy wasting taxpayer money on

:03:38. > :03:43.fighting a court case to keep the government's approached the Brexit

:03:44. > :03:47.secret? We know he can say today what the red lines will be, but why

:03:48. > :03:53.can't he at least be clear that Parliament's approval will be sought

:03:54. > :03:59.before the negotiations begin? When will he be able to say what the

:04:00. > :04:03.process will be? He says these are matters for a new government. Has

:04:04. > :04:06.the right honourable member for Maidenhead been consulted anchored

:04:07. > :04:17.the Minister tell the house when will we have a new government?

:04:18. > :04:25.A considerable burden has been placed by the honourable lady on

:04:26. > :04:34.Minister Penrose's shoulders. It would be good if we could hear his

:04:35. > :04:39.response. Firstly, I would gently say to the honourable lady that it

:04:40. > :04:44.is his difficult to argue that the government's approach to be said to

:04:45. > :04:48.be secret if it is in court, as it will be out in public. These issues

:04:49. > :04:52.will be revealed as we go forward with the new Prime Minister. The

:04:53. > :04:57.point on which I hope I can reassure her about is that my right

:04:58. > :05:03.honourable friend for Maidenhead has been very clear in saying that

:05:04. > :05:07.Brexit means Brexit. What that means is that the destination to which we

:05:08. > :05:12.are travelling is not in doubt. The means and how we get the will have

:05:13. > :05:18.to be explained, but I think it is only fair to wait until she is Prime

:05:19. > :05:22.Minister and has a chance to layout programme and the process, and

:05:23. > :05:26.therefore when Parliament will have a chance to discuss and debate these

:05:27. > :05:31.issues. At that point I am sure all will be revealed. Isn't the way to

:05:32. > :05:37.take back control and seek Parliamentary approval to proceed

:05:38. > :05:41.quickly to repeal the 1972 European Communities Act whilst transferrin

:05:42. > :05:46.all European law relevant to the single market into British law, but

:05:47. > :05:49.at the same time protecting our borders and keeping our

:05:50. > :05:55.contributions? That is what we voted for. Will the new government deliver

:05:56. > :06:02.that promptly? As I just said, the important thing to reassure my right

:06:03. > :06:07.honourable friend about is the representative for Maidenhead means

:06:08. > :06:12.that -- has said the Brexit means Brexit. The destination is not in

:06:13. > :06:16.doubt. The question of how we get there and hope to run the

:06:17. > :06:26.negotiations and the timings of what gets addressed when, I hope we can

:06:27. > :06:37.allow our new Prime Minister time to sort that out. The outcome of the EU

:06:38. > :06:40.referendum represented the most momentous constitutional change our

:06:41. > :06:45.country has faced in the post-war era. Night is the time to take the

:06:46. > :06:48.considered view on the future of the negotiations for the new government

:06:49. > :06:53.to layout the timetable, including when they anticipate Article 50 will

:06:54. > :06:57.be triggered. Article 50 should not be triggered until there is a clear

:06:58. > :07:01.plan in place about what the UK will be negotiating for and how that is

:07:02. > :07:05.going to be achieved. The government has already indicated it will

:07:06. > :07:09.consult the devolved administration and the Mayor of London and it must

:07:10. > :07:13.do the same with Her Majesty's official opposition. This is the

:07:14. > :07:16.only way they can develop a consensus on what the negotiating

:07:17. > :07:20.plan should be and that should be put to a vote on the size. The

:07:21. > :07:24.priority must be team undertaking the most substantial set of

:07:25. > :07:28.negotiations and are perhaps in modern history are fully equipped,

:07:29. > :07:33.resourced and fully prepared to extract the best deal possible for

:07:34. > :07:38.Britain. A trade agreements and I need to be really negotiated but it

:07:39. > :07:42.is suggested that only 20 people across the whole of Whitehall have

:07:43. > :07:45.the requisite experience to negotiate. We have deep concerns

:07:46. > :07:51.that the Autumn Statement which outlined drastic cuts for Whitehall

:07:52. > :07:55.long before Brexit materialised as a realistic possibility is no longer

:07:56. > :07:59.fit for purpose. That is why labour are saying to this government while

:08:00. > :08:05.discussions about article 50 are vital clearly what comes next

:08:06. > :08:07.matters even more. It'd be an abdication of responsibility for

:08:08. > :08:12.negotiating team do not have the resources they need and are forced

:08:13. > :08:15.to spend vital time implementing brutal budget cuts at home when they

:08:16. > :08:21.should be battling for Britain abroad. Let's properly resourced and

:08:22. > :08:28.Civil Service and come up with a consensus for the way ahead for

:08:29. > :08:38.Britain. I am pleased to hear her say that there is an opportunity

:08:39. > :08:44.here for cross-party consensus. It is important that those we are

:08:45. > :08:52.negotiating with no that Britain is speaking with one voice. I welcome

:08:53. > :08:56.her comments on that. I would agree with that it is important that we

:08:57. > :09:01.have a clear timetable as soon as our new Prime Minister is in place

:09:02. > :09:05.only because that the details of the timetable have to be geared to

:09:06. > :09:10.maximise our negotiation leveraged. That the new world we are gone but

:09:11. > :09:14.the question is how do we get there and the order in which issues are

:09:15. > :09:17.addressed and the timing of those has to be planned at incredibly

:09:18. > :09:24.carefully to make sure we get the best deal possible. I would also

:09:25. > :09:27.agree with her on this point of devolved government. We need to make

:09:28. > :09:32.sure that they are involved as well so it is not merely a question of

:09:33. > :09:44.consensus, cross-party consensus in Westminster, but consensus right the

:09:45. > :09:47.way across the UK. The Prime Minister urged originally said that

:09:48. > :09:50.he would trigger Article 50 immediately so I presume he felt he

:09:51. > :09:55.had the full legal authority to do so. Those who want to have a vote

:09:56. > :09:59.before Article 50 is triggered are not concerned with Parliamentary

:10:00. > :10:05.sophistry, it is a clear temp two thwart the Democratic will of the

:10:06. > :10:10.British people. They must be completely resisted by any real

:10:11. > :10:14.Democrats. The referendum was not a consultation with the British people

:10:15. > :10:21.it was an instruction from the British people that we have a duty

:10:22. > :10:24.to obey. I would strongly agree with my right honourable friend and

:10:25. > :10:31.Parliamentary neighbour that the question here is not the legal

:10:32. > :10:34.power, which has the Prime Minister has previously said is available,

:10:35. > :10:38.the question is what is politically and democratically right to reflect

:10:39. > :10:42.the decision that was made in the referendum. While the Prime Minister

:10:43. > :10:49.is sensibly saying that the timing and the method of triggering article

:10:50. > :10:54.50 needs to be a decision taken by his successor, I think also that his

:10:55. > :10:57.successor is very clear and also write to say that the British people

:10:58. > :11:05.have spoken and that Brexit means Brexit. We are grateful to the

:11:06. > :11:10.Minister for confirming that this will be done through royal

:11:11. > :11:19.prerogative. Perhaps that is the way that we can determine the leadership

:11:20. > :11:22.of the Labour Party. The exiting Prime Minister said that the

:11:23. > :11:27.Scottish parliament will be fully consulted on any Brexit proposal.

:11:28. > :11:30.Can you confirm that before any process has started an article 50

:11:31. > :11:34.that the Scottish Government will give their consent before you move

:11:35. > :11:40.forward? Scotland did not vote for this Tory inspired Brexit and it is

:11:41. > :11:45.the Scottish people before us are sovereign. We are yet to hear any

:11:46. > :11:51.minister say that they respect the Scottish result. This government

:11:52. > :11:55.might we charged with taking the UK out of the EU but these ventures are

:11:56. > :12:04.charged with ensuring that Scottish people always get what they voted

:12:05. > :12:08.for, too. I am delighted to confirm that the Scottish Government will be

:12:09. > :12:11.involved. I believe there are ready some early discussions under way. I

:12:12. > :12:17.hope and expect that those will continue as they will with the other

:12:18. > :12:20.devolved governments around the UK. I would gently remind the honourable

:12:21. > :12:26.gentleman that this is a commitment to consult, but it is not the same

:12:27. > :12:31.thing as an outright consent because as his own party has accepted

:12:32. > :12:36.recently, this is an issue which is not a devolved issue, it is

:12:37. > :12:39.something that is to be dealt with by this parliament and the UK as a

:12:40. > :12:51.whole and is something which is therefore a decision that we have

:12:52. > :12:58.taken as a country collectively. We are not seeking consensus as a term

:12:59. > :13:04.but would be seeking consensus... It will almost certainly not be

:13:05. > :13:09.forthcoming from the Scottish National benches. But he confirmed

:13:10. > :13:12.that there is no escape by doing this via Article 50? Whatever other

:13:13. > :13:18.Parliamentary processes that come behind that, it is a treaty

:13:19. > :13:21.obligations that we have to meet three invoking article 50 which is

:13:22. > :13:26.the instruction of the British people. Will he insure that is put

:13:27. > :13:33.in place as soon as we have negotiating hand in place? I would

:13:34. > :13:37.agree with my honourable friend and both of those points, that consensus

:13:38. > :13:43.is always desirable and should be sought wherever possible and that

:13:44. > :13:47.also article 50 and that route is to way of achieving Brexit. He is right

:13:48. > :13:50.to point out that it is only the tip of a much larger iceberg. There are

:13:51. > :13:57.a series of other things that have to wrap around that. I suspect we

:13:58. > :14:05.will hear more of them in due course. Is it not the case that

:14:06. > :14:09.referendums are advisory and that this Parliament is sovereign! Isn't

:14:10. > :14:14.it a constitutional outrage and the supreme irony that those people over

:14:15. > :14:18.there who base their argument for Brexit on Parliamentary sovereignty

:14:19. > :14:23.now want to deny this House vote and have suggested an unelected Prime

:14:24. > :14:27.Minister, unelected with no mandate, agrees to such a fundamental

:14:28. > :14:28.decision for this country. It is a disgrace and they must not be

:14:29. > :14:38.allowed to get away with that. Mr Speaker, with the greatest

:14:39. > :14:43.possible respect to the honourable gentleman, who has the experience,

:14:44. > :14:45.he might be right on legalities but democratically he is fundamentally

:14:46. > :14:50.wrong. We have had a referendum, the people have spoken and it would be

:14:51. > :14:54.unconscionable, impossible for us collect EUly for us to thumb our

:14:55. > :15:00.noses at the British people and ignore the result of that democratic

:15:01. > :15:06.verdict. Thank you Mr Speaker, can I point out that it would be extremely

:15:07. > :15:20.odd for the first time in this Parliament's history to instructions

:15:21. > :15:28.from the administrative court. Can I point out that were legislative

:15:29. > :15:31.consent realised, we passed the EU referendums Act which established

:15:32. > :15:38.the referendum and put the question before the British people? Well, Mr

:15:39. > :15:43.Speaker, I will endeavour to tread carefully, as there are cases either

:15:44. > :15:47.in train or planned. But I think that the fundamental political and

:15:48. > :15:51.democratic point must be this, which is that the people have spoken.

:15:52. > :15:55.Whichever side of the argument either members of this House or out

:15:56. > :16:01.in the rest of the country were on, it is up to all of us to unite as a

:16:02. > :16:05.country and make sure we respect the democratic decision and the

:16:06. > :16:09.democratic will clearly expressed. The Minister is an honest man and

:16:10. > :16:13.therefore when he says Brexit means Brexit he knows there are as many

:16:14. > :16:18.versions of Brexit as there are members on his benches here today.

:16:19. > :16:22.He needs to reaffirm parliamentary sovereignty and ensure that

:16:23. > :16:26.Parliament can vote on the Government's negotiating stance. For

:16:27. > :16:32.instance on the vexed and dangerous question of what happens at the

:16:33. > :16:36.Irish border. Mr Speaker, as I said in my opening response to the

:16:37. > :16:41.question, I'm sure that there will be many opportunities and many

:16:42. > :16:45.different occasions when this chamber will want to discuss and

:16:46. > :16:51.debate all sorts of different issues, including the one he just

:16:52. > :16:55.mentioned. This negotiation will be an ongoing process, and therefore he

:16:56. > :16:58.is right that there'll be many opportunities where specific issues

:16:59. > :17:04.will become salient, where people in this chamber will have strong views,

:17:05. > :17:09.people in devolved Governments will have strong views. These views will

:17:10. > :17:12.be aired in that process. Would my right honourable friend agree there

:17:13. > :17:18.is just the slightest chance that over the next few weeks we may be

:17:19. > :17:25.capable of generating more heat than light on this subject? It isn't the

:17:26. > :17:28.House of Commons, it isn't Parliament that will will be

:17:29. > :17:36.negotiated with the European Union, but the Government would he ask our

:17:37. > :17:42.recover the Chancellor of the Duchy to ensure that whilst Parliament

:17:43. > :17:47.should be kept informed and while it may express its view, it will be for

:17:48. > :17:52.the Prime Minister to carry out these negotiations once article 50

:17:53. > :17:58.is triggered. Parliament should Nottingham per the negotiating

:17:59. > :18:07.stance... Nottingham person. I think somebody wanted their lunch!

:18:08. > :18:11.LAUGHTER Should not constrain the negotiating tactics of any

:18:12. > :18:14.Government Minister. I think my right honourable friend gets the

:18:15. > :18:20.parliamentary award for optimism, saying there is only the slightest

:18:21. > :18:25.chance we might generate more heat than light over the next few weeks.

:18:26. > :18:27.This is something Ministers need to take forward. I'm certain that the

:18:28. > :18:30.Government and the opposition and the Backbench Business Committee and

:18:31. > :18:33.others will take many different opportunities to make sure that

:18:34. > :18:41.Parliament's views are forcefully expressed and the issues are debated

:18:42. > :18:45.as we go. Thank you Mr Speaker, the Minister will know that the

:18:46. > :18:49.triggering of article 50 will have profound consequences for the 3

:18:50. > :18:53.million EU citizens who are currently living within the United

:18:54. > :18:58.Kingdom. Has the Minister for Europe, who is sitting next to him

:18:59. > :19:01.on the Treasury bench, had any representations from other EU

:19:02. > :19:05.countries about the position of their nationalings here? And, if

:19:06. > :19:10.not, will we be able to have clarity as to whether or not they have the

:19:11. > :19:14.right to remain? At the moment Ministers are saying different

:19:15. > :19:20.things, with regard to these rights. We need the certainty before any

:19:21. > :19:25.triggering of article 50. Mr Speaker, the point of course is that

:19:26. > :19:31.there will be ongoing discussions about this and many other issues.

:19:32. > :19:36.The question about when those discussions might bear fruit, and

:19:37. > :19:38.there were concerns about informal negotiation being appropriate,

:19:39. > :19:43.that's something that will have to be resolved. As this stage I have to

:19:44. > :19:48.give the reply that we need to make sure we have a programme to be laid

:19:49. > :19:52.out by the Prime Minister as soon as she is in place. At that point I

:19:53. > :19:58.hope she will give more detail and clarity on that point, along with

:19:59. > :20:01.many others. Thank you flock. In terms of the doctrine of the

:20:02. > :20:05.sovereignty of Parliament, isn't it true that it is a sovereignty

:20:06. > :20:13.delegated by the British people, not given to us by twine right. It is

:20:14. > :20:19.absurd to think of the sovereignty being of divine right and of Kings.

:20:20. > :20:22.But the details of that mandate will no doubt be implemented by

:20:23. > :20:25.legislation. Mr Speaker, I will defer to my honourable friend and

:20:26. > :20:29.parliamentary neighbour on the details of the legalities of whether

:20:30. > :20:34.the some of renty begins and ends and where it is delegated from and

:20:35. > :20:38.to. The fundamental point is clear from his remarks and I hope mine

:20:39. > :20:43.earlier, that people have spoken. There's a democratic decision which

:20:44. > :20:48.we are now honour bound to deliver, and we should not try and resile

:20:49. > :20:52.from that or step back from it. Speaker spikes, expect that the

:20:53. > :20:57.Minister defers to his however friend on the matter of Hodge of

:20:58. > :21:02.Kings. Caroline Lucas. Thank you, will the consider be considering the

:21:03. > :21:05.proposal put forward by a thousand lawyers today which calls for an

:21:06. > :21:11.independent body to receive evidence from a wide range of groups and

:21:12. > :21:14.about the risks and benefits of triggering article 50 at different

:21:15. > :21:20.times. And will he ensure that that will be able to report before

:21:21. > :21:26.Parliament votes? Mr Speaker, I don't think I'm being overly cynical

:21:27. > :21:30.to wonder whether a proposal by 1,000 lawyers for a commission to

:21:31. > :21:35.deliberate at length might be a delaying tactic. The children be

:21:36. > :21:39.that yes need not to tie the hands of the incoming new Prime Minister.

:21:40. > :21:44.Or indeed of her negotiating team in the way that we approach this. As

:21:45. > :21:47.the lady from the opposition frontbench pointed out earlier, we

:21:48. > :21:53.need to make sure however we handle this it is aimed at getting the best

:21:54. > :21:57.deal possible for this country. Not just with our European member states

:21:58. > :22:05.but with other countries in the world as well. We've already got

:22:06. > :22:09.controversy break out, but the Minister's been doing a great job

:22:10. > :22:15.with his outpouring of common sense today on a heap of these questions.

:22:16. > :22:21.Will he just confirm that all common sense points not to triggering

:22:22. > :22:25.article 50 until it is in the UK's national interest to do so, as the

:22:26. > :22:29.Treasury committee has pointed out and reported on, and as the Governor

:22:30. > :22:35.of the Bank of England and the large number of other people who've been

:22:36. > :22:40.closely involved in these issues, having so concluded? Mr Speaker I'm

:22:41. > :22:45.happy to confirm that this is not a question offive we leave the EU. It

:22:46. > :22:49.is a question of how. And therefore the calculation which we all need to

:22:50. > :22:53.take and which the new Prime Minister and her team need to take

:22:54. > :22:57.is the best way to structure the negotiations and time those

:22:58. > :23:01.negotiations to maximise our negotiating leverage. I'm sure

:23:02. > :23:04.therefore she will, as we will all have read the Select Committee

:23:05. > :23:08.report with great care and will take those fact into consideration. The

:23:09. > :23:11.Minister said at the beginning of his first answer this wasn't just a

:23:12. > :23:15.legal matter, it was a political matter. So I cannot see for the life

:23:16. > :23:19.of me why the Government is challenging the legal case. Surely

:23:20. > :23:24.it is just a complete waste of money to send lawyers, whether it is ten

:23:25. > :23:27.or 1,000, it doesn't matter, why on earth is the Government wasting

:23:28. > :23:31.money on trying to assert this is just a matter of royal prerogative

:23:32. > :23:35.rather than accepting the political fact that yes bricks is it bricks

:23:36. > :23:40.that. Mail the case, but the truth of the matter is he is far more

:23:41. > :23:44.likely to get a good deal out of other European countries if he has

:23:45. > :23:49.managed to bind all sides of this House and both houses into a strong

:23:50. > :23:55.negotiating position? Mr Speaker, I had thought I had hoped that perhaps

:23:56. > :23:58.when the honourable lady who spoke for the opposition frontbench she

:23:59. > :24:03.was speaking for more people on her side and we were going to achieve

:24:04. > :24:09.some degree of cross-party consensus on this, because I think it is

:24:10. > :24:17.helpful if we can achieve some degree of country wide unanimity on

:24:18. > :24:22.it. I'm sad it doesn't like like there is that degree of unanimity on

:24:23. > :24:25.the opposition benches. The Attorney General is convinced that the

:24:26. > :24:37.Government's case is strongly arguable. That's why we are taking

:24:38. > :24:41.this case to court. We are many a strange situation where last week

:24:42. > :24:45.the result of the referendum were so catastrophic for the Labour Party

:24:46. > :24:49.where they passed a vote of no confidence that ir their leader

:24:50. > :24:53.whereas today it is neither here nor there, and we can keep ourselves in

:24:54. > :24:57.the EU because of parliamentary democracy. Perhaps they will make

:24:58. > :25:00.their mind up soon. Doesn't what we've heard make the point that

:25:01. > :25:05.these... THE SPEAKER: Order! I want to hear

:25:06. > :25:10.the honourable gentleman. I don't care whether other people want to

:25:11. > :25:13.hear him or not, but we are going hear the honourable gentleman the

:25:14. > :25:20.Member for Shipley. It is as simple that. I don't care how long it

:25:21. > :25:23.takes. Thank you Mr Speaker. These devices are not here to try and help

:25:24. > :25:27.the Government implement the will of the public. What they are asking for

:25:28. > :25:31.is the right to try and stop the will of the public being

:25:32. > :25:34.implemented. If the Government doesn't implement this because

:25:35. > :25:38.Labour frustrates the process, they'll be wiped out in the north of

:25:39. > :25:42.England in a future general election. They might be help bent on

:25:43. > :25:48.self destruction, but can I ask the Minister to save the Labour Party

:25:49. > :25:52.and implements Brexit in full? Mr Speaker, there are many reasons for

:25:53. > :25:56.implementing Brexit in full. That's the first time anyone has urged me

:25:57. > :25:59.to do it to save the Labour Party. I'm delighted to hear it from my

:26:00. > :26:04.honourable friend the Member for Shipley. I would also agree with him

:26:05. > :26:09.that there will be a nagging concern in the minds of some people,

:26:10. > :26:15.unworthy though it may be, that some of these proposals to delay or

:26:16. > :26:20.subject to intricate parliamentary procedures might be to try and

:26:21. > :26:26.frustrate the democratic expressed will of the people. And that would

:26:27. > :26:30.be democratically entirely wrong. I supported Remain. I have no regrets

:26:31. > :26:36.or apologies about that in the slightest. But is it not absolutely

:26:37. > :26:43.essential that the majority decision taken rightly or wrongly should be

:26:44. > :26:49.respected? Otherwise it makes a complete mockery of democracy. Mr

:26:50. > :26:54.Speaker, beautifully and eloquently expressed. We are all, I hope,

:26:55. > :26:58.Democrats first and foremost. Whichever side of the referendum

:26:59. > :27:03.debate we were on, in this House or more broadly across the country as a

:27:04. > :27:08.whole we have to respect the democratically expressed will of the

:27:09. > :27:13.British people. I'm glad to see the Attorney General in his place on the

:27:14. > :27:17.Treasury bench. Does the Minister dissent from the proposition put

:27:18. > :27:21.forward by the formered head of the Government legal service and many

:27:22. > :27:26.others, namely that article 50 is the only lawful route for exiting

:27:27. > :27:31.the EU? That's a matter for the royal prerogative. The 2015

:27:32. > :27:38.referendum Act is not of itself ad-Kuwait in law to constitute

:27:39. > :27:41.notice under article 50, and finally that to unilaterally repeal the

:27:42. > :27:45.European Communities Act other than through the article 50 process will

:27:46. > :27:50.be a breach of a threaty obligation, something no Government has done in

:27:51. > :27:55.300 years and would be wholly unconscionable. Mr Speaker, he asked

:27:56. > :28:02.four questions. The answer to the first three is a straightforward

:28:03. > :28:08.yes. The only gloss about how we might amend or repeal the European

:28:09. > :28:12.Communities Act but others is they would require primary legislation to

:28:13. > :28:16.do so. That will be brought forward when the time is right. Thank you Mr

:28:17. > :28:21.Speaker. Reference has been made by the Minister to discussions with

:28:22. > :28:25.devolved regions. Could the Minister outline what discussions have taken

:28:26. > :28:29.place with the Northern Ireland Executive, the Northern Ireland

:28:30. > :28:33.Assembly and the Irish Government? Because there are particular issues

:28:34. > :28:37.there to do with the need for free movement of goods, services and

:28:38. > :28:43.people, otherwise lit be very detrimental to the whole economy of

:28:44. > :28:48.the island of Ireland. Mr Speaker, the honourable lady is absolutely

:28:49. > :28:53.right, these are extremely ticklish and difficult cushion I can confirm

:28:54. > :28:57.that the discussions have begun and I can't aim afraid go into huge

:28:58. > :29:02.detail here as to however they've got or what the future plans are. If

:29:03. > :29:05.she has any concerns or doubts about how they might be progresses in

:29:06. > :29:09.future, I encourage her to come to me or the Northern Ireland Office

:29:10. > :29:15.and I'm sure we can set her mind at rest. Does my right honourable

:29:16. > :29:18.friend not agree it would be positively contemptuous of the will

:29:19. > :29:22.of the British people so clearly expressed if this Government were to

:29:23. > :29:25.refuse to trigger article 50? What does he feel would be the response

:29:26. > :29:29.of the British people at the next general election who encouraged that

:29:30. > :29:35.such contempt should be shown that their views?

:29:36. > :29:42.It is essential for the health of our democracy as much as for the

:29:43. > :29:46.future direction of this country for voters to understand and believe

:29:47. > :29:54.that we hear hold their opinions in high regard and are beyond morally

:29:55. > :30:01.bound to deliver on those views. If we ignore the Democratic consent, we

:30:02. > :30:08.will be in a much bigger problem than we are currently. It be

:30:09. > :30:14.something that undermine democratic consent which undermines this place.

:30:15. > :30:20.Isn't this situation a little bit more than ticklish? This is the

:30:21. > :30:29.biggest constitutional change for our country for half a century. Last

:30:30. > :30:34.week John Chilcot criticised the legal process that led to the Iraq

:30:35. > :30:39.war, the way that prerogative power work in the run-up to the Iraq war

:30:40. > :30:43.and, most importantly, he criticised the fact that there was not a

:30:44. > :30:49.sufficient plan once we had completed the inflation. On that

:30:50. > :30:54.basis, is the Minister really saying that you should not come back to

:30:55. > :31:04.Parliament so that individual members can come to a few of whether

:31:05. > :31:09.we should trigger Article 50? I withdraw a distinction in my reply

:31:10. > :31:16.between the question about whether or how. We have been clear and the

:31:17. > :31:20.right honourable lady who represents Maidenhead has been very clear that

:31:21. > :31:25.the destination is not in doubt, Brexit means Brexit. But how we get

:31:26. > :31:29.there is a matter for discussion, for her to lay out when she is

:31:30. > :31:34.behind the door at number ten. I'm sure she will do so and I think at

:31:35. > :31:40.that stage the honourable gentleman will have more information on how

:31:41. > :31:48.those announcements might be made. Switzerland had a referendum were

:31:49. > :31:50.they determined to immigration, but because of the protracted

:31:51. > :31:55.negotiations that they had with the EU the EU decided to start

:31:56. > :31:59.retaliatory measures including removal from Rasmus schemes and so

:32:00. > :32:05.forth. How long does the Minister we have before we can act is a good

:32:06. > :32:11.Article 50 four of the EU start retaliatory measures must? My

:32:12. > :32:17.honourable friend asked an extremely pertinent question. That will be one

:32:18. > :32:21.of the questions that the incoming Prime Minister and her negotiating

:32:22. > :32:24.team will be factoring into the decisions about how we do the timing

:32:25. > :32:30.and order of play on the negotiations. It must clearly be an

:32:31. > :32:33.issue and a case study which will be front and centre in the

:32:34. > :32:40.considerations as they make their decisions. A majority of my

:32:41. > :32:44.constituents still feel very angry. They feel that they were

:32:45. > :32:50.misinformed. In view of that they feel that they need to know the

:32:51. > :32:54.fact. One of the facts made to us in the foreign affairs Select Committee

:32:55. > :32:59.was that the size of the Foreign Office will need to be doubled.

:33:00. > :33:07.Given that in the Autumn Statement it was said that there would be

:33:08. > :33:11.drastic cuts in Whitehall, shouldn't we have a new Autumn Statement to

:33:12. > :33:19.spell out the implications of Brexit to the British people? It is clear

:33:20. > :33:26.that many things will change in the New World that we are facing. The

:33:27. > :33:30.country's trade orientation, its foreign policies will all have to be

:33:31. > :33:33.re-addressed and potentially amended in the same way that many of our

:33:34. > :33:38.businesses will have to reassess how they do business. There may have to

:33:39. > :33:43.be some changes but I would just say to her that I don't want to

:33:44. > :33:48.prefigure anything that the incoming Prime Minister might be able to

:33:49. > :33:52.announce. She, like me, will have to wait until those announcements are

:33:53. > :34:01.made. I would take that she said as the submission to the new Primus did

:34:02. > :34:06.-- prime ministerial team. The shadow spokesman talked about a free

:34:07. > :34:11.trade agreements that the to be re-negotiated. My understanding is

:34:12. > :34:15.that there are about 167 independently recognise countries

:34:16. > :34:20.outside the EU. The honourable lady for Bishop Auckland talked about,

:34:21. > :34:23.suggested that the government may be something other than inclusive about

:34:24. > :34:27.its process of discussing Brexit when we have had 34 million

:34:28. > :34:31.participants to did he have given us a clear message. Does my honourable

:34:32. > :34:35.friend agree with me that rather than spending time focusing on

:34:36. > :34:40.whether we should invoke article 50 and whether we should adhere to the

:34:41. > :34:44.mounted of the people, whether we should focus our efforts on a new

:34:45. > :34:47.collaborative relationship with our European neighbours and grabbing the

:34:48. > :34:53.opportunities from the rest of the world? By honourable friend is

:34:54. > :34:56.right. The focus now must be on how we get this done and how we get it

:34:57. > :35:01.done in the best and most constructive way possible. There

:35:02. > :35:05.will be opportunities. There will be great new horizons which can be

:35:06. > :35:09.addressed as a result of this decision and we need to make sure we

:35:10. > :35:10.are clear about them and set up in the right way to grab those

:35:11. > :35:20.opportunities as they present themselves. Britain will have two

:35:21. > :35:24.years to withdraw from the European Union wants it invokes article 50.

:35:25. > :35:28.But most analysts say it will take much longer than two years for

:35:29. > :35:34.Britain to successfully extricate itself and have a new relationship.

:35:35. > :35:39.Has the government thought about approaching member states for a

:35:40. > :35:43.possible extension to that period? Any alteration to the process around

:35:44. > :35:49.article 50 requires unanimity from the other EU member states, so that

:35:50. > :35:52.there is inherently a pretty high bar that any government would need

:35:53. > :35:57.to pass. While I'm sure it will be a fact you're considered by the new

:35:58. > :36:00.incoming Prime Minister entertained there will be many other options

:36:01. > :36:05.that they will want to consider as well in order to maximise our

:36:06. > :36:09.negotiating beverage. As I said before, both of us will have to wait

:36:10. > :36:12.until the new Prime Minister is ready to make announcements about

:36:13. > :36:18.how she and team are going to approach those issues. The

:36:19. > :36:24.referendum has been a deeply divisive and says, dividing city

:36:25. > :36:26.against time, community against community and nation against nation.

:36:27. > :36:31.With the Minister agree with me that we now need a cross-party approach

:36:32. > :36:36.to dealing with the issue of when to invoke Article 50 and the basic

:36:37. > :36:43.negotiating position around that, and then to hold the negotiating

:36:44. > :36:48.team to account. Would he consider finding a special Parliamentary

:36:49. > :36:52.committee to do both of those jobs? The current Prime Minister has said

:36:53. > :36:58.that he believes it is very important that not just the current

:36:59. > :37:01.government but also the devolved governments and indeed wherever

:37:02. > :37:07.possible on a cross-party basis of the parties as well, are able to

:37:08. > :37:10.contribute to this so we can speak as a nation with one voice. He is

:37:11. > :37:15.also right to say that the referendum was a divisive of the and

:37:16. > :37:18.that is something which is not just political parties need to knit

:37:19. > :37:24.together again but also society needs to knit together again. I

:37:25. > :37:27.don't share his enthusiasm for a Parliamentary committee as the

:37:28. > :37:32.solution to achieve all of that, but I do share his conviction that a

:37:33. > :37:37.degree of healing is required and all of us on all sides of the house

:37:38. > :37:39.have a duty to make sure our respect of parties and the communities we

:37:40. > :37:46.represent are able to come together for the good of the country in the

:37:47. > :37:52.future. More than 60% of my electorate voted to leave the

:37:53. > :37:57.European Union so I am very much honouring their views and opinions.

:37:58. > :38:04.The triggering of Article 50 is uncharted waters for this government

:38:05. > :38:09.and for the European Union. Wouldn't it make sense for the government to

:38:10. > :38:14.be an open negotiation with their European counterparts to set out the

:38:15. > :38:18.parameters, the process, areas of commonality and then to come back to

:38:19. > :38:24.this House to set out what is the likely procedure so that we can make

:38:25. > :38:28.sure that we get the very best deal for the people of Denton and

:38:29. > :38:34.Redditch and people of the United Kingdom as we take forward the

:38:35. > :38:40.referendum into reality? The honourable gentleman is right to say

:38:41. > :38:46.that article 50 is uncharted waters. We are of necessity having to

:38:47. > :38:51.address by new problems. I will take the rest of his remarks as admission

:38:52. > :38:55.-- as a submission to the new Primus to and her negotiating team.

:38:56. > :39:00.Whatever process they layout has to be founded on one central principle,

:39:01. > :39:04.which is that it needs to maximise the negotiating strength of this

:39:05. > :39:14.country as a whole to get the best deal possible. The Minister cannot

:39:15. > :39:19.say what Brexit means Brexit really means, is it not therefore vital

:39:20. > :39:23.that given that we have no idea what the terms of the spreads it will be

:39:24. > :39:30.that it is properly scrutinised and voted on by the democratically

:39:31. > :39:35.elected members of this House? I think I addressed that in my initial

:39:36. > :39:38.remarks. There will be lots of opportunities over a long period on

:39:39. > :39:42.many different facets of the negotiations for Parliament to

:39:43. > :39:45.debate and discuss these issues. I am sure that she and many others

:39:46. > :39:50.will have a chance to make their views known. When it comes to any

:39:51. > :39:53.decisions that will be made I will have to wait for the new Prime

:39:54. > :39:59.Minister to layout programme and timetable for that. I'm sure all

:40:00. > :40:05.will be made clear and at that point we will be able to address any

:40:06. > :40:10.decision points that may be offered. A majority of my constituents voted

:40:11. > :40:14.to remain and whilst they are concerned about the result there

:40:15. > :40:23.will be more concerned to think that Parliament would have anything less

:40:24. > :40:28.than a full say in this process. I would like the Minister to explain

:40:29. > :40:31.what role specifically does he see the Welsh Government ministers and

:40:32. > :40:45.the Assembly itself having in making a decision on this final proposal?

:40:46. > :40:50.As I mentioned in my response earlier, there are a series of

:40:51. > :40:52.discussions already underway. We are endeavouring to seek consensus

:40:53. > :40:57.wherever possible. It is also true that ultimately foreign policy is

:40:58. > :41:01.something that is reserved to the United Kingdom Parliament. Welton

:41:02. > :41:06.wants to make sure that everybody has the chance to contribute will

:41:07. > :41:08.want a collective view so we understand what the best

:41:09. > :41:11.opportunities after the different constituent parts of the United

:41:12. > :41:17.Kingdom. At the end of the day it has to come back to the United

:41:18. > :41:29.Kingdom government and Parliament. Brexit means Brexit, but there is no

:41:30. > :41:34.agreed definition of what it means. Is the ministers seriously proposing

:41:35. > :41:38.that we should undergo such a momentous, seismic change has Brexit

:41:39. > :41:41.provided having been defined to the British people before the referendum

:41:42. > :41:49.or decided upon by Parliament after it? The honourable lady is

:41:50. > :41:54.absolutely right that the details will become a great deal clearer as

:41:55. > :41:58.a negotiation goes through. Therefore, all of us will discover

:41:59. > :42:04.more about how rates it will impact on different parts of our lives as

:42:05. > :42:07.those negotiations near completion in various different facets. I must

:42:08. > :42:12.come back to the point I have made which is that we will not be able to

:42:13. > :42:16.say how Parliament will engage with that until the new Prime Minister

:42:17. > :42:20.has had the chance to lay timetable whereupon it will be possible to

:42:21. > :42:26.assess when the opportunities for debate and discussion will occur.

:42:27. > :42:31.This was not the question I was going to ask but given the response

:42:32. > :42:36.by the Minister I want to press him on the extent to which devolved

:42:37. > :42:39.institutions will be consulted. There are clearly some government

:42:40. > :42:46.departments are much of the workers devolved, like and farming, yet in

:42:47. > :42:48.terms of the EU it is Age UK Government negotiating position.

:42:49. > :42:54.That really does need to be resolved. The honourable lady gives

:42:55. > :42:57.a very good illustration of the sort of area where it is very important

:42:58. > :43:01.to make sure that the constituent parts of the UK are closely involved

:43:02. > :43:09.so that their views can be fact reading, if it is at devolved or

:43:10. > :43:11.non-default issue, there will be plenty of occasions when Tuesday to

:43:12. > :43:24.be fed back very carefully to inform the negotiation discussions. Urgent

:43:25. > :43:26.question, Andy Slaughter. If the Secretary of State would make a

:43:27. > :43:38.statement on the safety of staff and prisons. A central duty of the

:43:39. > :43:42.Ministry of Justice is security in prison estate is imperative that the

:43:43. > :43:47.dedicated professionals working in prisons are say. We need to

:43:48. > :43:50.safeguard the welfare of those in custody. It is a profound concern to

:43:51. > :43:56.me that serious assaults against that in prison have been on the

:43:57. > :44:02.rise. In the 12 months to December 2015 there have been 625 incidents,

:44:03. > :44:06.an increase of 31%. Those who work in our prisons are idealistic public

:44:07. > :44:10.servants who run the risk of assault and abuse everyday but they continue

:44:11. > :44:14.in their jobs because they are driven by a noble cause. They want

:44:15. > :44:20.to reform and rehabilitate offenders, that is why we must stand

:44:21. > :44:22.behind them. I know that members of the Prison Officers Association? And

:44:23. > :44:29.other trade unions want rapid action taken to make the work safer. I

:44:30. > :44:33.understand the frustration and I'm determined to help. Violence and

:44:34. > :44:36.prisons has increased for a number of reasons. The nature of the

:44:37. > :44:41.offenders in custody as one factor. Younger offenders involving

:44:42. > :44:44.gang-related attack cities pose a particular concern. Another factor

:44:45. > :44:49.is the widespread availability of new psychoactive substances.

:44:50. > :44:51.Synthetically manufactured drugs more difficult to detect than

:44:52. > :45:08.traditional cannabis and opiates. The former chief and prisons said

:45:09. > :45:12.NPS is the greatest threat. It is also a consequence of prisoners'

:45:13. > :45:15.boredom and lack of faith in the future. We are taking steps to

:45:16. > :45:20.reform our prisons, to take account of our change prison population more

:45:21. > :45:28.than 2,800 new prisoner officers have been recruited since January

:45:29. > :45:36.2015, a net increase of 530. To keep them safer we are deploying body

:45:37. > :45:40.worn cameras. And from May we outlawed psychoactive substances. In

:45:41. > :45:44.June I allocated an extra ?10 million in new funding for prisoner

:45:45. > :45:49.safety and the money has gone direct to governors. All these steps will I

:45:50. > :45:53.believe help to improve safety. But first I want to stress that my

:45:54. > :45:57.department's door will be open to staff and their representatives to

:45:58. > :46:02.ensure that we work collaboratively together to improve conditions for

:46:03. > :46:06.all in our Prince. Second, it is because I've seen for myself how

:46:07. > :46:10.urgently we need to change our prisons for the better this

:46:11. > :46:15.Government initiated a major reform programme. We'll be change ageing

:46:16. > :46:21.and ineffective prisons with no establishments designed to foster

:46:22. > :46:25.rehabilitation. We'll give governors greater scope to have greater

:46:26. > :46:29.activity. And as we press ahead with this reform programme I'm confident

:46:30. > :46:33.that we can ensure that our prisons can become what we can ensure that

:46:34. > :46:35.our prisons can become what they should always be - safe and secure

:46:36. > :46:43.places of redemption and rehabilitation. Thank you Mr

:46:44. > :46:48.Speaker. The situation on our prison estate continues to deteriorate. As

:46:49. > :46:52.the Secretary of State concedes. I'm sorry we've heard nothing new from

:46:53. > :46:57.him today. Over the weekend prison staff had crisis meetings across the

:46:58. > :47:03.country amid concerns about the security and safety in the

:47:04. > :47:13.workplace. Indents of violence are reported on a daily basis. The

:47:14. > :47:16.Ministry of Justice spokesman caused the action unlawful. I wonder if the

:47:17. > :47:19.Secretary of State thinks that's an appropriate staff to members of

:47:20. > :47:23.staff concerned about their welfare and indeed that of the inmates.

:47:24. > :47:27.According to local staff that the prison in Liverpool, over the past

:47:28. > :47:32.12 months there've been more assaults than in the previous 12

:47:33. > :47:39.years. One member of staff was stabbed, others have been spat at,

:47:40. > :47:48.punched, kicked and urine and faeces thrown over them. Riot officers were

:47:49. > :47:54.certainty to a prison in Birmingham. And then a prisoner was found dead

:47:55. > :47:58.in his cell. 5,000 and 6,000 prison officers had taken part in the

:47:59. > :48:03.pre-shift meetings. The Secretary of State will also be that were a

:48:04. > :48:09.freedom of information request last week revealed there had been many

:48:10. > :48:14.accounts in the last five month, including that from Wormwood Scrubs.

:48:15. > :48:18.Following that walkout in May and a serious assault on two officers, he

:48:19. > :48:24.did announce ?10 million. But frankly the Secretary of State has

:48:25. > :48:28.been absent in the last few weeks. We have had an inadequate and

:48:29. > :48:33.reactive response to each crisis. We do need a full response to what is a

:48:34. > :48:38.growing and increasing crisis. As he correctly says the growing number of

:48:39. > :48:42.serious assaults. I hope we will hear that full strategy soon, for

:48:43. > :48:46.the safety of our prison officers and prisoners. If we don't have

:48:47. > :48:52.that, he is going the lose cell fully of the prison estate. Ky thank

:48:53. > :48:56.the honourable gentleman for the detail and the tone of his remarks.

:48:57. > :49:02.Now on the backbenches he continues the great work he did on the

:49:03. > :49:11.frontbenches in making sure that the condition of our prisons is kept in

:49:12. > :49:14.the forefront of our minds. Thank to his dell gent work and the justice

:49:15. > :49:18.Select Committee a number of areas of concern have been brought to our

:49:19. > :49:24.attention or highlighted or underlined. We've appointed a highly

:49:25. > :49:28.experienced prisoner Governor in order to lead work to ensure that

:49:29. > :49:34.our prisons are more secure. She set up a specific task force to visit

:49:35. > :49:38.the prison which is face the greatest challenge. Prison Governors

:49:39. > :49:42.are feeling reassured and strengthened they are having the

:49:43. > :49:48.best advice to help them deal with the problems. We have rolled out a

:49:49. > :49:56.specific interstrengths help prison officers de-escalate violent

:49:57. > :50:01.incidents. It is pioneered by a first rate professional, Ross Kemp,

:50:02. > :50:07.who is due to be Governor in front of a prison in Wales. We've been

:50:08. > :50:12.given ?1.3 billion. I shall not run away from the fact we have a

:50:13. > :50:19.difficult situation in our prisons. That'sy visited the BBC to visit our

:50:20. > :50:25.prisons in recent weeks, in order to ensure we tackle this problem

:50:26. > :50:29.fairly. I know the honourable gentleman is sincere and look

:50:30. > :50:34.forward to working with him in that end. The Secretary of State's full

:50:35. > :50:37.and prompt response to our Select Committee report on prison safety

:50:38. > :50:41.published in May does great credit for his own personal commitment to

:50:42. > :50:45.tackling this issue. His frankness about the level of the challenge

:50:46. > :50:49.that we face. In going forward, will he perhaps give further updates as

:50:50. > :50:54.to whether he is now able to take on board some of the recommendations in

:50:55. > :51:00.the report. For example the Ministry of Justice and offender management

:51:01. > :51:04.service producing an action plan to tackle the underlying cause of the

:51:05. > :51:10.violence, staff retention issues and quarterly reports to this House, so

:51:11. > :51:15.we can measure progress against specified and clear targets? I'm

:51:16. > :51:18.grateful to the chairman of the Select Committee for his reports. E

:51:19. > :51:22.chairman of the Select Committee for his reports. The - I agree we'll

:51:23. > :51:26.bring forward an action plan, provide this House with regular

:51:27. > :51:30.updates on the steps we are taking. Recruitment and retention of staff

:51:31. > :51:33.is critical. Critical. I want to underline one of the points in

:51:34. > :51:36.response to both the Member for Hammersmith and the chairman of the

:51:37. > :51:40.Select Committee, I want to work with the prison Officers Association

:51:41. > :51:45.and trade unions to ensure that all concerns are addressed. I also want

:51:46. > :51:50.to ensure we can continue to attract high quality people into the prison

:51:51. > :51:53.service it is a vital job. Mr Speaker, the situation in our

:51:54. > :51:58.underfunded prisons is deteriorating. There have been

:51:59. > :52:02.consequences to the Government's decision to cut ?900 million from

:52:03. > :52:05.the min visit to justice Budget. Ecision to cut ?900 million from the

:52:06. > :52:09.min visit to justice Budget. -- Ministry of Justice Budget. Assaults

:52:10. > :52:16.are up. There are 13,000 less prison staff than in 200 but there are more

:52:17. > :52:19.prisoners than we were in 200. This Government has made prisons less

:52:20. > :52:24.safe for staff and for prisoners. There's a service crisis. On Friday

:52:25. > :52:29.members of the prison Officers Association held meetings across the

:52:30. > :52:32.country to discuss what they call the perpetual crisis in the prison

:52:33. > :52:36.service. The Secretary of State has accepted there are significant

:52:37. > :52:40.problems. The Chief Inspector has said prisons are a lot more

:52:41. > :52:44.dangerous and has said staff shortages have had an impact. The

:52:45. > :52:51.justice Select Committee has demanded an action plan. Given all

:52:52. > :52:55.this, will the Secretary of State explain, has the Secretary of State

:52:56. > :52:59.or the National Offender Management Service spoken to the prison

:53:00. > :53:03.Officers Association since Friday's meetings outside prisons? What is

:53:04. > :53:07.the Secretary of State's plan to reduce staff assaults, which have

:53:08. > :53:14.increased by 36% in the past year? And on the ?10 million allocated to

:53:15. > :53:19.safety, if he finds, as I suspect he will, significantly higher spending

:53:20. > :53:23.he has experimentally allocated to Bristol and Rochester does indeed

:53:24. > :53:28.have much greater impact, will the Secretary of State increase safety,

:53:29. > :53:33.spending elsewhere. And in relation to the prisons identified for

:53:34. > :53:37.greater operational freedom in the upcoming Bill, a process the

:53:38. > :53:41.Secretary of State has liked to school academisation, will he

:53:42. > :53:45.confirm that we will not see a watering down of staff terms and

:53:46. > :53:49.conditions or creeping privatisation? Mr Speaker, isn't it

:53:50. > :53:53.time this Government stopped failing prison staff, stopped failing

:53:54. > :54:01.prisons and stopped failing our society in this regard? Can I first

:54:02. > :54:07.of all welcome the honourable gentleman to the frontbench in his

:54:08. > :54:10.new role. He has a distinguished legal career behind him, and some of

:54:11. > :54:15.the questions he asked today go directly to the heart of the matter.

:54:16. > :54:18.We have spoken to the prison Officers Association. Senior figures

:54:19. > :54:28.in the National Offender Management Service have been in touch with the

:54:29. > :54:32.... Service have been in touch with the

:54:33. > :54:36.I found their approach to be constructive and cordial and I want

:54:37. > :54:43.to maintain good relations with them in future. He makes the point that

:54:44. > :54:46.?10 million may need to be expanded in staff safety. This money has been

:54:47. > :54:49.spent to individual Governors to pend as they think fit. But of

:54:50. > :54:55.course we'll do everything possible to ensure that the resources are

:54:56. > :54:58.there to safeguard not just those who work in our prisons but the

:54:59. > :55:05.appropriate welfare of those in custody. He asked about the prison

:55:06. > :55:10.reform Bill and the six reformed prisons should have a greater degree

:55:11. > :55:16.of autonomy. He asked if academisation is a prelude to

:55:17. > :55:22.privatisation. It is the case that in these six prisons the governors

:55:23. > :55:27.exercise a greater degree of autonomy, but not at the expense of

:55:28. > :55:32.terms and conditions. Or safety of staff. We want staff to feel that

:55:33. > :55:35.the work they do is valued and rewarded and the outstanding

:55:36. > :55:43.governors taking forward change this these prisons live and breathe

:55:44. > :55:49.respect for their staff every day. The prisons and brokenation

:55:50. > :55:52.ombudsman told the Select Committee about the per ravesness n told the

:55:53. > :55:58.Select Committee about the per ravesness of mental health -- the

:55:59. > :56:01.per ravesness of ntal health -- the per ravesness of mental health

:56:02. > :56:04.issues - pervasiveness of mental health issues. My honourable friend

:56:05. > :56:07.makes a good point. One of the difficulties that we face is that

:56:08. > :56:10.very many of the people who've in custody are people with mental

:56:11. > :56:19.health problems. In some cases undiagnosed. It is often the case

:56:20. > :56:23.that a prison regime by its nature with the restrictions imposed on

:56:24. > :56:26.individuals, a prison regime may not be the most effective way of

:56:27. > :56:31.tackling the mental health problems of those individuals and ensuring

:56:32. > :56:34.which could not offend again. We are considering how we can better review

:56:35. > :56:37.mental health provision within the prison estate. More announcements

:56:38. > :56:42.will be forthcoming. One thing that was clear from the commitment in the

:56:43. > :56:46.Gracious Speech is that Her Majesty laid out the fact that improving

:56:47. > :56:52.outcomes for individuals with mental health problems in a criminal

:56:53. > :56:58.justice system is a core wish of this Government. I wonder whether

:56:59. > :57:02.the Secretary of State is prepared to acknowledge that the combination

:57:03. > :57:07.of rising prisoner numbers and shrinking Budget is a major factor

:57:08. > :57:14.impacting on the welfare and safety of prison officers and prisoners.

:57:15. > :57:20.The Scottish Government is committed to reform of penal policy, by moving

:57:21. > :57:24.from ineffective short term prison sentences in favour of community

:57:25. > :57:28.sentences, which have been shown the be more effective at preventing

:57:29. > :57:32.reoffending. In June the Scottish Government announced ?4 million of

:57:33. > :57:36.extra funding to allow for an increase in community sentences. I

:57:37. > :57:44.wonder whether the Secretary of State will acknowledge that the UK's

:57:45. > :57:50.policies on prisons are not work. And making more effective use of

:57:51. > :57:58.short-term, community alternatives rather than relying on prison

:57:59. > :58:01.sentences. I have an enormous amount of respect for the honourable and

:58:02. > :58:06.learned lady. She is right there is much we can learn in England and

:58:07. > :58:10.Wales from other jurisdictions. I wouldn't say Scotland has everything

:58:11. > :58:13.right in terms of criminal justice and penal policy. There are welcome

:58:14. > :58:18.changes in Scotland not least with respect to the care and treatment of

:58:19. > :58:22.female offenders. I hope in the near future to have the chance to talk to

:58:23. > :58:28.leaders within the Scottish Prison Service and to visit some Scottish

:58:29. > :58:34.Franz learn from the initiatives they've been piloting. Can the

:58:35. > :58:41.Justice Secretary tell us how the number of attacks on staff nub

:58:42. > :58:45.prisons compares to staff in other countries around the world and what

:58:46. > :58:52.lessons might be learned from those countries? Can I invite him to look

:58:53. > :58:58.at the punishments handed down by other countries to prisoners who

:58:59. > :59:02.attack prison staff? They extend the sentences much more harshly. I

:59:03. > :59:10.suspect that might lead to a decrease in attacks on prison staff.

:59:11. > :59:16.I know he wants to operate in a constructive fashion. I am always

:59:17. > :59:24.interested in learning from other jurisdictions. We don't collect

:59:25. > :59:28.assault in a way that makes for an easy comparison. He poses a

:59:29. > :59:32.particular challenge to us. I always want to be led by evident in shaping

:59:33. > :59:38.policy and the evidence suggests to me that it is often the case of a

:59:39. > :59:47.lack of hope or an inability to see high actions can lead to eventual

:59:48. > :59:53.redemption that leads to violence. I will get back to him with evidence

:59:54. > :59:57.and comparisons in order for us to conduct this debate better. One of

:59:58. > :00:01.the most distressing things that can happen to you as a prison officer is

:00:02. > :00:06.when you go to unlock an inmate and find that they have taken their own

:00:07. > :00:09.lives. Lord Harris's review into deaths in custody made it clear

:00:10. > :00:15.recommendation that ministers should temp two contact and speak with the

:00:16. > :00:19.families especially of young people who have taken their own lives in

:00:20. > :00:24.prison. It has yet, ministers have not adopted that recommendation.

:00:25. > :00:30.Would you please reconsider? She makes a good point. I honourable

:00:31. > :00:35.friend will be meeting relatives of someone who did take the life

:00:36. > :00:40.custody recently. The one thing I would say is that there are

:00:41. > :00:45.sometimes sensitivities about specific cases but as a general rule

:00:46. > :00:50.it is something we would wish to do. My right honourable friend will from

:00:51. > :00:53.his experience as Secretary of State have worked out that there is a

:00:54. > :01:02.catalogue of reasons why the safety of prison staff is placed at risk.

:01:03. > :01:07.Overcrowding in prisons is certainly one, mental health issues, the lack

:01:08. > :01:12.of purposeful activities for prisoners. But he also accept that

:01:13. > :01:17.the continuing uncertainty for prisoners on IAPP, making them the

:01:18. > :01:20.most difficult of cohorts of prisoners to manage is something

:01:21. > :01:27.that we should deal with quickly. Can we not arrange for them to be

:01:28. > :01:32.resentenced quickly, or put before the parole board should the other

:01:33. > :01:37.cases can be reviewed? This is a matter of urgent priority. I would

:01:38. > :01:44.urge him to look at the IPP question that is causing such a lot of

:01:45. > :01:48.disturbance in prison system. He probably would not have had an

:01:49. > :01:54.opportunity to read the speech I gave to the governor is six weeks

:01:55. > :02:02.ago. I outlined in that speech the urgent need for reform for IAPP.

:02:03. > :02:04.Lord Duncan had acknowledged that the original intention when he

:02:05. > :02:10.introduced the sentences have not manifested itself in the way those

:02:11. > :02:15.sentences were applied. I will meet Nick Hardwick later this week to

:02:16. > :02:16.expedite some changes which I hope that he and others in the house

:02:17. > :02:31.might welcome. Will the Secretary of State place

:02:32. > :02:44.copies of that speech in the library of the house? We all look forward to

:02:45. > :02:54.reading this speech. The root cause of the problem is overcrowding and

:02:55. > :02:58.that creates stress on the members of staff and prisoners. There are

:02:59. > :03:02.currently 13,000 foreign national prisoners in our prisons and the

:03:03. > :03:08.prisoner transfer arrangement with the EU has been so far point

:03:09. > :03:11.painfully slow. We have decided to come out of the EU, what further

:03:12. > :03:22.steps can be taken in order to get countries to take back their own

:03:23. > :03:27.citizens? I will place a copy in the library. Copies for those people who

:03:28. > :03:31.are even more eager to read it are available on the website of the

:03:32. > :03:36.Ministry of Justice Butler will do everything to facilitate the

:03:37. > :03:40.widespread dissemination and reading of that speech. He makes a good

:03:41. > :03:44.point. There are four too many foreign national offenders in our

:03:45. > :03:54.prisons. Sometimes countries outside the European Union, Albania outside

:03:55. > :03:57.the European Union at the moment, have concluded good bilateral

:03:58. > :04:02.arrangements with this country in order to facilitate the return of

:04:03. > :04:05.criminals. It is not necessary to be within the European Union to have

:04:06. > :04:08.good bilateral arrangements but it is vital as we move to a new

:04:09. > :04:11.relationship with our European neighbours that we returned those

:04:12. > :04:21.offenders who are not British citizens. The safety of prison staff

:04:22. > :04:25.is a huge issue for me because there are three present in my

:04:26. > :04:29.constituency. Does the Secretary of State agree with me that we will not

:04:30. > :04:32.get the rehabilitation of prisoners that we all want to see unless

:04:33. > :04:36.prison staff have the time and resources to enable it to happen.

:04:37. > :04:40.When both they and prisoners feel safe enough to achieve it. This

:04:41. > :04:45.process will not be helped with ongoing reductions in prison staff

:04:46. > :04:51.numbers. She makes a fair point. I am delighted that we have been able

:04:52. > :04:57.to give Durham prison and additional ?220,000 in order to help deal with

:04:58. > :05:00.the current problems. She is right, that is why the even staff were

:05:01. > :05:04.reduced in the last Parliament in order to meet benchmarking

:05:05. > :05:08.requirements there has been a net increase in the number of prison

:05:09. > :05:13.staff since January 2,000 15. We will be making more announcements in

:05:14. > :05:20.due course to show how we are trying to recruit more people into this

:05:21. > :05:23.job. Today has the Secretary of State how many times the national

:05:24. > :05:27.tactical response unit has been called but this year. Last year it

:05:28. > :05:38.was one for every day of the year. Has this figure gone up? I will turn

:05:39. > :05:43.to make notes. The last year for which we have figures was 2,000 Ford

:05:44. > :05:51.team and 15. It was called but 400 times in that year, so just over a

:05:52. > :05:57.once every day. In my constituency there is not extra money for the

:05:58. > :06:03.prison because it is closing. It has only been open ten years. In the

:06:04. > :06:08.answers to letters I have written to his colleagues I have been told that

:06:09. > :06:13.the staff would be expected to relocate to the new super prison in

:06:14. > :06:17.Wrexham. The problem is it is over 70 miles away and there is no

:06:18. > :06:21.prospect of many of the staff being able to relocate. Isn't this an

:06:22. > :06:25.example of one of the problems of the planning he is carrying out. He

:06:26. > :06:29.is closing a prison and the new one is opening but the staff will be

:06:30. > :06:35.able to get there. How will this help with problems of overcrowding

:06:36. > :06:39.and prison staff safety? I would be delighted to meet the honourable

:06:40. > :06:44.gentleman in order to explain the reasons for closing the prison. We

:06:45. > :06:48.need to make sure that we have modern and appropriate prisons for

:06:49. > :06:52.our prisoners. There will be opportunities not just in the new

:06:53. > :06:57.prison but elsewhere for staff who currently work in your constituency

:06:58. > :07:03.to do the work for which I thank them. I am grateful to the Secretary

:07:04. > :07:09.of State because I have spent a lot of time in prisons over the last few

:07:10. > :07:14.months. Two things that staff raised with me. The first is that they are

:07:15. > :07:17.optimistic about the reform context that the Secretary of State has

:07:18. > :07:24.created a new should be congratulated for that. The second

:07:25. > :07:27.thing they have raised repeatedly is staff numbers, which are fallen

:07:28. > :07:32.substantially. In the new government that we expect to begin shortly,

:07:33. > :07:36.does he hope to see that reform agenda continue, but is it also

:07:37. > :07:41.possible my the -- now that we are moving away from austerity that

:07:42. > :07:45.staff members could rise again? I am grateful to him for what he says and

:07:46. > :07:49.for the work he is carrying out at the moment to ensure that black and

:07:50. > :07:53.minority Ethnic individuals are treated fairly in the criminal

:07:54. > :07:58.justice system. About the reform programme, I have been delighted by

:07:59. > :08:02.the fact that across this House and throughout the government there has

:08:03. > :08:06.been strong support for the reform programme that we are undertaking.

:08:07. > :08:10.It will be central to the work of this government over the next few

:08:11. > :08:14.years and I look forward to working with him and other colleagues to

:08:15. > :08:18.make sure we make progress. It is of paramount importance that the

:08:19. > :08:24.government does all it can do to ensure that prison staff are safe in

:08:25. > :08:29.the place of work. He will know that the recent safety in custody figures

:08:30. > :08:35.were quite shocking. Will he guarantee that when these figures

:08:36. > :08:41.are published in future there will be full scrutiny of the statistics

:08:42. > :08:44.in Parliament and will he commit to a frequent statement on what the

:08:45. > :08:50.government is doing to improve the situation? Yes, I will do everything

:08:51. > :08:54.possible to make sure that Parliament is fully informed. That

:08:55. > :08:59.is in line with the recommendations that are welcomed from the Select

:09:00. > :09:08.Committee. Statement, the Secretary of State for Defence. Secretary

:09:09. > :09:12.Michael Fallon. With permission, I would like to make a statement on

:09:13. > :09:19.the Nato summit held in Warsaw last Friday and Saturday. The 2015

:09:20. > :09:29.strategic defence and Security review reaffirmed Peter's position

:09:30. > :09:37.-- Nato's position. We are leaders in the Alliance. The range of

:09:38. > :09:40.challenges the alliance faces including Daesh, migration and

:09:41. > :09:47.Russian belligerence and that the summit was of major importance for

:09:48. > :09:51.European and Atlantic security. The overwhelming message from Warsaw was

:09:52. > :09:54.one of strength and unity. We believe that the summit has

:09:55. > :10:00.delivered an alliance that is now more capable and project stability

:10:01. > :10:03.beyond our borders based on stronger partnerships which collectively

:10:04. > :10:13.protect our citizens and defend Europe. At the welsh summit in 2015

:10:14. > :10:16.Nato put out of action plan to make sure that Nato can respond quickly

:10:17. > :10:24.to new challenges. The United Kingdom is at the forefront. Our

:10:25. > :10:28.typhoons are conducting Baltic missions from Estonia. Warships are

:10:29. > :10:39.a significant contribution. We will lead Natohow Fred readiness joint

:10:40. > :10:43.task force for next year. To demonstrate the solidarity of the

:10:44. > :10:48.Allies and the ability to act in response to any aggression, Warsaw

:10:49. > :10:54.builds on the Wales commitments by delivering enhanced forward presence

:10:55. > :10:58.in Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Poland. I am proud that the United

:10:59. > :11:04.Kingdom is one of four nations to lead a framework Battalion alongside

:11:05. > :11:09.Canada, Germany and the United States. These battalions will be

:11:10. > :11:13.defensive in nature but fully combat capable. The United Kingdom force

:11:14. > :11:21.will be located in Estonia, with two UK companies, headquarters element

:11:22. > :11:25.and equipment such as armoured vehicles, guided missiles. Denmark

:11:26. > :11:29.and France have said they will provide trips to the UK Battalion.

:11:30. > :11:36.In addition, we will be deploying a company group to Poland. This is our

:11:37. > :11:43.response to Russian aggression. Nato's approaches based on balancing

:11:44. > :11:48.strong defence and dialogue. Dialogue remains right where it is

:11:49. > :11:52.in our interest to deliver hard messages to promote transparency and

:11:53. > :11:59.to build understanding to reduce risks of miscalculation. Credible

:12:00. > :12:03.alliance defence and deterrence depends on Nato's ability to adapt a

:12:04. > :12:08.21st-century threats through both nuclear and conventional forces. The

:12:09. > :12:14.summit recognise the important contribution to the United -- and

:12:15. > :12:17.that the United Kingdom's Independent nuclear deterrent makes

:12:18. > :12:21.to the overall security of the alliance, so I confirm that we

:12:22. > :12:24.expect the house to have the opportunity to vote to endorse the

:12:25. > :12:31.renewal of that deterrent next Monday. Initiatives on cyber and

:12:32. > :12:35.hybrid warfare amongst others will give the alliance the capabilities

:12:36. > :12:39.it needs to respond quickly and affect Ulster player ever, modelling

:12:40. > :12:43.capabilities require appropriate funding and here good progress has

:12:44. > :12:48.been made against the investment pledge, a key commitment from Wales.

:12:49. > :12:53.Following this government's decision to spend 2% of GDP on defence and to

:12:54. > :12:57.increase the defence budget in each year of this Parliament, cuts to

:12:58. > :13:05.defence spending across the Alliance have now halted, with 20 Allies by

:13:06. > :13:11.defence spending and eight Allies committing international plans to

:13:12. > :13:17.reaching the 2% target. Delivering the best for our country also means

:13:18. > :13:20.maximising the talent in our Armed Forces and the Prime Minister has

:13:21. > :13:25.accepted the recommendation of the chief of the General staff to open

:13:26. > :13:30.up ground close combat roles to women. Nato's rules preventing

:13:31. > :13:33.conflict than tackling problems at source has become ever more

:13:34. > :13:39.important as threats to Alliance Security droids of instability and

:13:40. > :13:45.fragile or a weak states. Nato's defence capability building

:13:46. > :13:48.initiative is a powerful tool in projecting stability and we in the

:13:49. > :13:54.United Kingdom continue to provide significant support to Georgia, Iraq

:13:55. > :14:00.and to Jordan. Building on this, the Allies agreed that Nato will conduct

:14:01. > :14:05.training and capacity building inside Iraq. In Afghanistan, local

:14:06. > :14:08.forces are taking responsibility for providing security across the

:14:09. > :14:13.country. Our long-term commitment as part of Nato's resolute support

:14:14. > :14:18.mission is crucial. Next year we will increase our current troop

:14:19. > :14:23.const -- contribution of 450 by around 10% to help build the

:14:24. > :14:26.capacity of the Afghan security institutions. The summit also

:14:27. > :14:31.reiterated its support for a European partners including Ukraine

:14:32. > :14:35.and Georgia and I was delighted that Montenegrin attended the summit as

:14:36. > :14:40.an observer has a clear sign that Nato's door remains open.

:14:41. > :14:45.The scale of Europe's security challenges means that NATO must work

:14:46. > :14:52.with a range of partners to counter them. This summit sends a strong

:14:53. > :14:54.message of NATO's willingness to build relationships with

:14:55. > :14:58.international institutions. I welcome the joint declaration from

:14:59. > :15:02.the NATO Secretary-General and the presidents of the European Union and

:15:03. > :15:07.the European Commission on NATO-EU co-operation. We continue to support

:15:08. > :15:14.a closer relationship between NATO and the EU to avoid unnecessary

:15:15. > :15:18.duplication. Our strong message to our allies and partners was that the

:15:19. > :15:23.result of the referendum will have no impact on any of our NATO

:15:24. > :15:28.commitments and that NATO remains the cornerstone of our defence

:15:29. > :15:32.policy. The United Kingdom will be leaving the European Union, but we

:15:33. > :15:37.are not reducing our commitment to European security. We are not

:15:38. > :15:44.turning our back on Europe or on the rest of the world. HMS Mersey will

:15:45. > :15:49.deploy to the Aegean to continue our support for NATO's efforts to

:15:50. > :15:54.counter illegal migration. We'll provide a second ship, RFA mounts

:15:55. > :16:00.bay, in the central Mediterranean, and NATO has agreed in principle to

:16:01. > :16:02.provide surveillance and reconnaissance support to that

:16:03. > :16:09.operation too. It is a United Kingdom priority for NATO to do more

:16:10. > :16:15.dense Daesh. NATO AWACS will more the counter David Cameron coalition.

:16:16. > :16:21.Coalition. In addition to our efforts we'll continue what we can

:16:22. > :16:26.do with capacity building of the Italian Coastguard. It is our firm

:16:27. > :16:29.view that the alliance has the capacity and the will and the intent

:16:30. > :16:35.to respond to the range of threats and challenges that it may face. The

:16:36. > :16:41.summit also showed that Britain is stepping up its leading role in the

:16:42. > :16:48.alliance by deploying more forces to NATO's eastern borders, to NATO's

:16:49. > :16:53.support to Afghanistan, and in countering illegal migration. That

:16:54. > :16:57.strong UK leadership Warsaw will be remembered for the concrete steps

:16:58. > :17:01.taken to deliver a strong and unified alliance that remains the

:17:02. > :17:05.cornerstone of European defence and security, and I commend this

:17:06. > :17:12.statement to the House. THE SPEAKER: Clive Lewis. Lewis..

:17:13. > :17:17.Thank you Mr Speaker. Can I thank the Secretary of State and his team

:17:18. > :17:20.for the work they have done on the Warsaw summit this weekend. I would

:17:21. > :17:28.like to remind the Secretary of State that rumours of me going AWOL

:17:29. > :17:33.in the muddy fields of Glastonbury were greatly example rates. We on

:17:34. > :17:36.this side of the House welcome the message from the Warsaw summit, that

:17:37. > :17:42.NATO is determined to strengthen our commitment to its friends and allies

:17:43. > :17:46.in Eastern Europe. Whatever the consequences of Brexit, and some

:17:47. > :17:51.will be unforeseeable, one must not be that the UK is seen as retreating

:17:52. > :17:55.into isolationism. We welcome the Government's readiness to make the

:17:56. > :18:00.United Kingdom one of the four contributor nations of the new

:18:01. > :18:06.rotational force. It will have an important symbolic value in

:18:07. > :18:13.providing a visible reminder of article 5 commitment to defence. I

:18:14. > :18:19.emphasised the word collective. That's because the basic values that

:18:20. > :18:25.underpin NATO: Collective endeavour, human rights and democracy, are the

:18:26. > :18:28.same values that underpin two cracy, are the same values that underpin

:18:29. > :18:32.two of NATO's two founders - Clement Attlee's Labour Party and the new

:18:33. > :18:39.Democrats. We are entitled to share some of the credit for helping build

:18:40. > :18:42.these values into the alliance. Values we can get behind and

:18:43. > :18:48.reaffirm. But Mr Speaker, back to the detail, if I may. Many questions

:18:49. > :18:52.remain about how the deployment will work in practice. Particularly in

:18:53. > :18:55.terms of equipment, training and rules of engage: I would be grateful

:18:56. > :18:59.if the Secretary of State will commit to providing regular updates

:19:00. > :19:02.to the House as these plans move forward. In light of ongoing

:19:03. > :19:07.tensions between NATO and Russia, I'm pleased to hear the Secretary of

:19:08. > :19:12.State mention the need for dialogue. It is a commitment echoed in the

:19:13. > :19:17.summit communique, which recognised the risks of misunderstanding and

:19:18. > :19:20.calls for a new commitment for dialogue, particularly through the

:19:21. > :19:24.NATO Russia council. Can the Secretary of State tell the House

:19:25. > :19:32.what steps the Government is taking to reduce the risk of misnappeding

:19:33. > :19:37.between the UK and Russia or a possible miscalculation on defence

:19:38. > :19:43.matters. It is over a decade since NATO took command of multinational

:19:44. > :19:48.operations in Afghanistan, where 150 servicemen and women have been

:19:49. > :19:53.killed since 2002. I spent some time in the neater of Afghanistan on

:19:54. > :19:57.operation there is, so I have personal experience, having served a

:19:58. > :20:01.try month tour in 2009 as part of the NATO deployment. As such it is

:20:02. > :20:08.something I will draw upon in our future debates. Although the UK's

:20:09. > :20:14.last remaining combat troops were withdrawn in 2014, hundreds have

:20:15. > :20:18.stayed behind to help train Afghan security forces. The announcement

:20:19. > :20:22.that a further 50 British troops be deployed to Afghanistan last year

:20:23. > :20:26.and the planned withdrawal date pushed back from a second time will

:20:27. > :20:32.be of concern to many. I note that UK troops will continue to be

:20:33. > :20:42.deployed in noncombat Rogers I would be grateful if the Secretary of

:20:43. > :20:47.State could safeguard against the mission creep, for a number of years

:20:48. > :20:54.the UK has been the only major NATO power to continue excluding women

:20:55. > :20:58.from ground close combat roles. We welcome Friday's announcement to

:20:59. > :21:05.approve the integration of women across all front line combat roles.

:21:06. > :21:08.The decision is a huge step forward not only for equality but the

:21:09. > :21:13.effectiveness of the Armed Forces. In Iraq and Afghanistan and all over

:21:14. > :21:18.the world women have served our armed forces with professionalism

:21:19. > :21:22.and distinction. I would be grateful for any information the Secretary of

:21:23. > :21:26.State can provide as to what specific steps he will help monitor

:21:27. > :21:28.the smooth transimmigration of this process. Lp monitor the smooth

:21:29. > :21:34.transimmigration of this process. -- transition of this process. We must

:21:35. > :21:38.not lose sight of the foundation of NATO. Justice in the form of

:21:39. > :21:43.freedom. Justice in the form of democracy. And justice in the form

:21:44. > :21:48.of economic fairness. The Secretary of State was right to affirm the

:21:49. > :21:52.UK's commitment to NATO. I hope that NATO he affirmed is one that stays

:21:53. > :21:57.root to the vision of its founders. Because it is a vision we share on

:21:58. > :22:02.this side of the House. I look forward to holding him to account in

:22:03. > :22:06.the coming months ahead. I am grateful to the honourable

:22:07. > :22:11.gentleman, and let me welcome him on his first appearance at the dispatch

:22:12. > :22:17.box. I think the fourth Shadow Defence Secretary in the last couple

:22:18. > :22:26.of years. Let me also welcome the broad welcome he has given to this

:22:27. > :22:30.particular statement, and let me wholeheartedly welcome, his reminder

:22:31. > :22:36.of the original establishment of NATO under a Labour Government,

:22:37. > :22:42.which of course supported fully the nuclear deterrent at the time, and I

:22:43. > :22:45.believe was ready under every Labour Government to commit that nuclear

:22:46. > :22:51.deterrent to the overall defence of the alliance as well as the defence

:22:52. > :22:57.of this country. I'm sure he'll be explaining all that in a little more

:22:58. > :23:02.detail when we come to the debate on Wednesday.

:23:03. > :23:07.We asked me four specific questions. So far as the bat alonto be deployed

:23:08. > :23:12.in Estonia is concerned, yesly update the House on the precise

:23:13. > :23:18.arrangements for that deployment, which will begin we hope in the

:23:19. > :23:21.spring of next year. There is much detail to be finalised so far as the

:23:22. > :23:28.command and control relationships are concerned. And the precise

:23:29. > :23:34.activities that that bat alonwill be involved. In we will seep him and

:23:35. > :23:39.the House up to date on that. That. He asked me about the dialogue with

:23:40. > :23:47.Russia. I it wouldn't be clear. This cannot now because of the

:23:48. > :23:50.aggression, the annexation of Ukraine, this cannot be business as

:23:51. > :23:56.usual with Russia. There are issues we have in common, as we saw in the

:23:57. > :24:00.refinement of the nuclear deal with Iran and on going discussions about

:24:01. > :24:05.a political settlement in Syria. It is right that we continue to talk to

:24:06. > :24:10.Russia in those areas where we have shared interests. I can confirm to

:24:11. > :24:17.him that the next meeting of the NATO Russia council will be on 13th

:24:18. > :24:23.July. We do continue the links that he referred to at ambassadorial

:24:24. > :24:25.level to ensure that he referred to at ambassadorial level to ensure

:24:26. > :24:30.that any misunderstand "be avoided. Thirdly, he asked me about

:24:31. > :24:40.Afghanistan. Let me put on record my own tribute to his service. We are

:24:41. > :24:49.increasing the number of troops that we are deploying in Afghanistan by

:24:50. > :24:52.around 50. There is no danger here of mission creep, because these

:24:53. > :24:54.additional 50 troops will be doing what the existingitional 50 troops

:24:55. > :24:55.will be doing what the existing 450 are doing - supporting the security

:24:56. > :25:00.institutions, providing advice and support to the fledgling Afghan Air

:25:01. > :25:05.Force and continuing the important work of mentoring at the officer

:25:06. > :25:09.Academy. A number of other allies have been able to increase the

:25:10. > :25:16.support they are making available to Afghanistan. He will know of course

:25:17. > :25:19.that the alliance also welcomed the change of heart in the American

:25:20. > :25:25.position, that they were not going to reduce down to the level that was

:25:26. > :25:31.originally forecast. Finally, he asked me about the decision to open

:25:32. > :25:36.combat roles in the Army to women. I'm glad he has welcomed and-a-half

:25:37. > :25:41.of course it is something we'll do on a phased basis, continuing the

:25:42. > :25:46.research that is essential in order to set the right physical standards

:25:47. > :25:54.as each role is opened up. But I am happy to keep him up to date on

:25:55. > :25:59.that. I'm very much congratulate my right honourable friend on his

:26:00. > :26:03.statement and thank him for emphasising the role of NATO in our

:26:04. > :26:07.defence. He'll have had discussions with members who are part of the

:26:08. > :26:10.European Union. I wonder what discussions he has had in relation

:26:11. > :26:15.to those parts of the common security and defence policy that may

:26:16. > :26:18.continue to be of mutual benefit. I'm thinking of elements of the

:26:19. > :26:24.European defence agency and exercising with the EU battle

:26:25. > :26:28.groups. Well, let me make clear that until we leave the European Union we

:26:29. > :26:33.remain full members of the European union and we will remain committed

:26:34. > :26:39.to the security that the European Union adds to the security that is

:26:40. > :26:44.provided through NATO. That includes our participation in the EU battle

:26:45. > :26:47.group. Group. Includes our participation in missions like

:26:48. > :26:52.Operation Sophia in the central Mediterranean, to which we are

:26:53. > :26:57.committing an additional ship. It also continues on, it also is seen

:26:58. > :27:02.in our continuing work to get those two organisations to work more

:27:03. > :27:04.closely together, to avoid unnecessary dupe implication andly

:27:05. > :27:06.together, to avoid unnecessary dupe implication and to cop --

:27:07. > :27:14.duplication and to co-operate more closely. Mr Speaker, paragraph 40 of

:27:15. > :27:18.the Warsaw summit communique focuses on NATO's maritime security. With no

:27:19. > :27:22.surface vessels or aircraft based in Scotland it is an area in which the

:27:23. > :27:28.UK Government is failing in its duty. Did the Secretary of State

:27:29. > :27:33.have discussions with his Norwegian counterpart or informed co-operation

:27:34. > :27:39.in the maritime domain? In paragraph 10 of the communique, a number of

:27:40. > :27:47.Russia's destabilising actions and policies are listed, including the

:27:48. > :27:50.annexation of Crimea, large snail exercised, provocative military

:27:51. > :27:53.activities near NATO borders, aggressive nuclear rhetoric and

:27:54. > :27:57.violations of NATO airspace. Can the Secretary of State tell me which of

:27:58. > :28:02.these actions have been deterred by Trident? Finally paragraph 64 of the

:28:03. > :28:06.communique focuses on nuclear non-proliferation. What specific

:28:07. > :28:11.discussion it's the Secretary of State have with NATO counterparts to

:28:12. > :28:16.further nuclear disarm In the coming weeks myself and the colleagues will

:28:17. > :28:21.vote not to renew Trident. Can I right him and those on the Labour

:28:22. > :28:26.benches to join me in voting against it so we can achieve the alliance's

:28:27. > :28:29.aim of a world without nuclear weapons? In teens the honourable

:28:30. > :28:34.gentleman's first point, the defence of the United Kingdom is organised

:28:35. > :28:37.on a United Kingdom basis. He should be in absolutely no doubt about

:28:38. > :28:41.that. So far as our relationship with Norway is concerned, yes I had

:28:42. > :28:46.a bilateral meeting with the Norwegian Minister. We work

:28:47. > :28:50.extremely closely on defending our respective countries. And looking

:28:51. > :28:56.for further areas of co-operation, particularly in the light of our

:28:57. > :29:00.Strategic Defence Review and Norway's long-term plan, published

:29:01. > :29:03.more recently. So far as maritime patrol aircraft is concerned, I hope

:29:04. > :29:09.he will have caught one the announcement this morning that we

:29:10. > :29:13.are to purchase nine Boeing P 8 aircraft, as announced by my right

:29:14. > :29:17.honourable friend the Prime Minister with me in Farnborough at the

:29:18. > :29:23.airshow this morning. I hope it will not be too long before those patrol

:29:24. > :29:28.aircraft are able to help better protect our deterrent, as well as

:29:29. > :29:33.protect our aircraft carriers and conduct our tasks.

:29:34. > :29:42.Nonproliferation was not her subject for the Warsaw summit. We are

:29:43. > :29:46.committed to a world without the killer weapons but I have to say to

:29:47. > :29:51.him and his party there are 17,000 nuclear weapons out there. There are

:29:52. > :29:57.states trying to develop nuclear weapons, there remains the dangers

:29:58. > :30:01.that other people, terrorist groups, might try to get hold of nuclear

:30:02. > :30:05.weapons and that is why I will be inviting the heights to vote next

:30:06. > :30:08.Monday to continue the principle of the nuclear deterrent that has

:30:09. > :30:20.served this country well and well protected in the years to come. Can

:30:21. > :30:27.I say to my right honourable friend how delighted I am that we have

:30:28. > :30:34.reaffirms our commitment to the Nato alliance by putting a strong signal

:30:35. > :30:41.using our troops on the ground in Estonia and Poland. Can I further

:30:42. > :30:47.thank my right honourable friend for making arrangements for French and

:30:48. > :30:52.Danish troops to join our battle group in Estonia? I speak as perhaps

:30:53. > :30:57.the only British officer to have commanded the first parachute

:30:58. > :31:02.Battalion of the French Foreign Legion. Let me say to my honourable

:31:03. > :31:08.friend, the purpose of this deployment is to reassure our allies

:31:09. > :31:17.on the eastern border of Nato as much as to make Russia think twice

:31:18. > :31:22.about any further aggression. Our deployment in Estonia, I can tell

:31:23. > :31:27.him, was warmly welcomed, not simply by Estonia but by the other Baltic

:31:28. > :31:31.states. We see night in near to a coming together of the Nato

:31:32. > :31:36.countries committing to each other's formation, whether it is the high

:31:37. > :31:40.readiness task force or the enhanced forward presence. We look forward to

:31:41. > :31:50.working with French and Danish troops alongside our Battalion in

:31:51. > :31:54.Estonia next year. The summit reiterated support for Georgia and

:31:55. > :31:59.Ukraine, but in practical terms what steps are being taken to support

:32:00. > :32:05.those countries in their bid for Nato membership and to ensure the

:32:06. > :32:11.defence of the Borders? In terms of assisting both Georgia and Ukraine,

:32:12. > :32:14.Georgia is and enhanced opportunity partner of Nato and there is a

:32:15. > :32:23.package of measures in place to strengthen defence cooperation

:32:24. > :32:33.between Nato and Georgia. We are seeing an increase in the capacity

:32:34. > :32:40.of the Ukrainian forces. We are playing a large part on that. So far

:32:41. > :32:43.as future access in the Nato is concerned, we have made it clear

:32:44. > :32:49.that there can be no short cuts to Nato membership. There are criteria

:32:50. > :32:55.to meet in any future applications require the unanimous consent of all

:32:56. > :33:00.the existing members, but equally the accession of Montenegro sends a

:33:01. > :33:05.clear message that nobody, certainly not Russia, has any kind of veto on

:33:06. > :33:12.future membership. Has my right honourable friend seen the remarks

:33:13. > :33:15.of Mikhail Gorbachev who has expressed his concern that we are

:33:16. > :33:21.moving from a new Cold War to and you hot one? Speaking as somebody

:33:22. > :33:24.who was a soldier in the Cold War, may I express my grave concern that

:33:25. > :33:28.all we are really doing is irritating Russia outfitting a

:33:29. > :33:34.number of troops on its border and that we have to recognise that

:33:35. > :33:41.Russia does have a zone of influence which includes Ukraine and Belarus?

:33:42. > :33:46.If we do not find a way of negotiating with Russia we are only

:33:47. > :33:52.going to make the danger of the new possibly hot war more likely and we

:33:53. > :33:57.have to look at these realities? B paid tribute to my honourable

:33:58. > :34:02.friend's former service in the military, but I do have to say to

:34:03. > :34:08.him that Nato and to Russia and anybody else, that Nato remains a

:34:09. > :34:12.defensive alliance. Nato isn't threatening anybody. But the

:34:13. > :34:17.commitments that we have made to each other under Article 5 it is

:34:18. > :34:20.important that we reassure, particularly those members of the

:34:21. > :34:28.eastern flank of Nato, that we're ready to by those commitments and to

:34:29. > :34:34.come to the aid and they have seen Russia trying to change

:34:35. > :34:37.international borders by force, and mixing the Crimea, and interfering

:34:38. > :34:44.in the Eastern Ukraine. It is very important we remind members of Nato

:34:45. > :34:48.that Nato is committed to defend the territorial integrity and we do send

:34:49. > :34:54.the message right across Europe to Moscow that we are not prepared to

:34:55. > :35:01.see the sovereign integrity of these countries further impudence. The

:35:02. > :35:06.Warsaw conference underline near to does my to consent. With the

:35:07. > :35:12.secretary agree with me that for it to be effective, deterrence have to

:35:13. > :35:19.be credible. Any suggestion that somehow our nuclear deterrent could

:35:20. > :35:22.be... It could lead to its credibility being questioned and

:35:23. > :35:29.threatened the nuclear posture of deterrence by Nato? I absolutely

:35:30. > :35:34.agree with that. We did look under the previous government exhaustively

:35:35. > :35:38.at the alternatives, the alternative systems of delivering that

:35:39. > :35:45.deterrent, whether it could be done from the air, from land or with

:35:46. > :35:54.fewer boats. The overwhelming conclusion was that the most of and

:35:55. > :35:59.simplest form of deterrent is to contain our existing four boats

:36:00. > :36:08.nuclear submarine fleet and that will be the motion that we will put

:36:09. > :36:13.towards the house on Monday. I am grateful indeed for my right

:36:14. > :36:22.honourable friend's robust statement on the Nato summit. Can he is surely

:36:23. > :36:27.with the good news of more European nations pledging to spend 2% of

:36:28. > :36:31.their GDP on defence spending and commitments to Trident that Nato

:36:32. > :36:39.will remain an alliance of cooperation between European states

:36:40. > :36:42.and Atlantic States? Yes, I am grateful to my honourable friend for

:36:43. > :36:47.what he is said not least because I think we were on opposite sides of

:36:48. > :36:53.the argument during the referendum. The most encouraging thing since the

:36:54. > :36:57.Wales summit fully confirmed that Warsaw was the number of European

:36:58. > :37:01.countries that have neither incentives to increase their

:37:02. > :37:06.spending. The general decline in European defence spending has been

:37:07. > :37:12.halted and has now been reversed. We see allies such as the Czech

:37:13. > :37:16.Republic, France, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland, Romania, the Slovak Republic

:37:17. > :37:22.and Turkey putting in place plans to get to the 2% as we have done. With

:37:23. > :37:27.your permission, it might be helpful just to pass on the news to the

:37:28. > :37:34.house that the Unite trade union has just reaffirmed that strong

:37:35. > :37:39.commitment to the building programme for the building in Barrow and

:37:40. > :37:43.across the nation. That will be held to all of us on the size as we help

:37:44. > :37:49.to fulfil our manifesto pledge to carry on a complete programme that

:37:50. > :37:54.we began in government. On the vote, can I ask what is the view of the

:37:55. > :38:01.government on what it would do to the UK's position in the new killer

:38:02. > :38:05.alliance which Nato is, if the UK were suddenly to commit to

:38:06. > :38:14.unilateral disarmament by scrapping the programme to create a new fleet

:38:15. > :38:18.of boats. So far as his first point is confirmed, let me welcomed the

:38:19. > :38:23.decision of Unite to support the renewal of the nuclear deterrent

:38:24. > :38:28.which is important for security and the economy. There are over 200

:38:29. > :38:34.companies already involved in the supplied change starting to deliver

:38:35. > :38:38.some of the long lead items that the house has already authorised. There

:38:39. > :38:43.are several thousand jobs already beginning to be committed to the

:38:44. > :38:47.renewal of the deterrent. It is important that those are borne in

:38:48. > :38:54.mind when we come to the debate on Monday. So far as his bigger point

:38:55. > :38:59.is concerned, any decision by the size to withdraw from the position

:39:00. > :39:04.of successive governments, Labour and Conservative, that we are

:39:05. > :39:09.committed to the nuclear deterrence and to place that you could

:39:10. > :39:14.deterrent in this supports of the Nato alliance as a whole would

:39:15. > :39:23.fundamentally undermine that alliance. It would cause some very,

:39:24. > :39:31.very serious repercussions for our relationship with our key allies,

:39:32. > :39:35.especially the United States. Can I return the Secretary of State to the

:39:36. > :39:40.Ukraine were the belligerence of Russia is a great interest in the

:39:41. > :39:48.Council of Europe and that the last meeting we had the Ukrainian pilot

:39:49. > :39:55.was arrested by the Russians. I want as Q what will the Nato involvement

:39:56. > :40:03.in Ukraine be to achieve? I had the privilege of meeting the pilots in

:40:04. > :40:08.Warsaw on Saturday. She attended with the president of the Ukraine

:40:09. > :40:13.and the defence minister. Although Ukraine is not a member of Nato

:40:14. > :40:17.there are a number of Nato allies working extremely hard to try to

:40:18. > :40:24.reinforce the ability of Ukraine to defend itself. We are coordinating

:40:25. > :40:29.our training effort between us and doing what we can to stand behind

:40:30. > :40:32.the territorial integrity of Ukraine, not least through the

:40:33. > :40:42.sanctions that the European Union continues to apply. May I also put

:40:43. > :40:52.on record my welcome of the decision by Unite today to reconfirm the

:40:53. > :41:08.position held by, dating back to Ernest Bevin. On the issue of

:41:09. > :41:17.post-Brexit... Is there going to be rescheduling of assessment of the

:41:18. > :41:25.programmes around the STS are? In terms of the nuclear deterrent I

:41:26. > :41:28.hope we will as large a majority as possible to recommitting the nuclear

:41:29. > :41:32.deterrent that has served us so well and send a further signal to the

:41:33. > :41:37.rest of the world that Britain is prepared to continue to play its

:41:38. > :41:42.part in the defence of Nato as well as the defence of her own country.

:41:43. > :41:48.So far as the specific question about the cost of F 35, it is too

:41:49. > :41:52.early to be sure of exactly where the sterling dollar exchange rate

:41:53. > :41:57.will end up. Let me say to him that like any large commercial

:41:58. > :42:04.organisation, we take precautions against fluctuations in the currency

:42:05. > :42:08.but it is too early to say whether the currency is likely to be

:42:09. > :42:17.sustained or not. Order. Point of order, Niall Griffiths. I have

:42:18. > :42:22.notified the right honourable member of my intention to raise this issue.

:42:23. > :42:29.On Friday and member of my staff had his past the activated. This e-mail

:42:30. > :42:33.advised the pass offers to turn the passes of a number of staff working

:42:34. > :42:37.for former members of the Shadow Cabinet. Can I seek your advice on

:42:38. > :42:43.the propriety of members seeking to dear Sophia at the passes of other

:42:44. > :42:47.members's staff? Would you be able to clarify the rules on this issue

:42:48. > :42:50.as I was under the impression that the question of authorising passes

:42:51. > :42:55.was the sole responsibility of the sponsoring member. I can say to the

:42:56. > :43:03.honourable lady in response to her point of order that she is correct.

:43:04. > :43:09.That is the basis on which these matters are handled. I understand, I

:43:10. > :43:13.was conscious of this, but the passes of several members of staff

:43:14. > :43:24.were incorrectly suspended temporarily on Friday. As soon as

:43:25. > :43:31.the mistake came to light... Order! As soon as the matter came to light

:43:32. > :43:34.the passes were reinstated. We do not discuss security matters on the

:43:35. > :43:39.floor of the house so I do not propose to say any more on this

:43:40. > :43:44.matter. Moreover, I don't need to do so. Because I have given the

:43:45. > :43:47.information that the honourable lady salt and I have very specifically

:43:48. > :43:57.answered the point that she raised in her point of order our -- her

:43:58. > :44:04.point about where that lies. If there are no further points of order

:44:05. > :44:11.we can move on. Presentation of ill. Mr Mark Williams. Sculptures -- the

:44:12. > :44:23.Parthenon sculptures returned to Greece bill. Friday January 20 2017.

:44:24. > :44:25.Thank you. Order. The court will not proceed to read the orders of the

:44:26. > :44:58.day. We'll spill, committee. Order. Order. Wales Bill. We begin with

:44:59. > :45:04.amendment 118 to clause 3 with which it would be convenient to include

:45:05. > :45:10.others on the order paper. Paul Flynn to move amendment 8. Thank

:45:11. > :45:15.you. Since we met last week there's been the wonderful celebration of

:45:16. > :45:20.Wales's team's great achievements in the European Cup. This is a matter

:45:21. > :45:24.of enormous pride to us as a nation and I was delighted to see the

:45:25. > :45:30.celebrations last week in Saturday, the biggest things which have

:45:31. > :45:37.happened in Cardiff since the VE Day and VJ Day which I'm sure we both

:45:38. > :45:43.remember. The time when Cardiff won the cup in 1926. These are matters

:45:44. > :45:48.on which there will be many benefits for the people of Wales. Not just

:45:49. > :45:53.pride in the skills of our team, but in the behaviour of our fans that

:45:54. > :45:59.were there. I did notice yesterday on the television that the Secretary

:46:00. > :46:05.of State was, gave a performance dancing with a ball on his head and

:46:06. > :46:10.on his foot. It seemed to be a wordless message. I didn't quite get

:46:11. > :46:16.the point. It couldn't possibly be that he was auditioning for a future

:46:17. > :46:22.job in the uncertain times that we are in politically as a circus

:46:23. > :46:27.performer. It could have been a subliminal message saying that had

:46:28. > :46:30.the Secretary of State substituted for Aaron Ramsay last week the

:46:31. > :46:34.result of the Portugal game might have been different. But there we

:46:35. > :46:41.are. A matter of great happiness for the country. It was a joy to see

:46:42. > :46:45.that our beautiful national language and anthem was probably heard by

:46:46. > :46:52.more people than at any time in its 3,000 year history. That has

:46:53. > :46:58.intrigued many people but it has given Wales a sharper identity. This

:46:59. > :47:07.Bill is proceeding in a consensual form. There's a great political

:47:08. > :47:13.tumult going on in various years but here is an oasis of calm and good

:47:14. > :47:18.sense as all parties support this beneficial bill, which will give

:47:19. > :47:26.Wales another certain amount of devolution. The progress is slow and

:47:27. > :47:34.endless but it is a step forward. I would like to speak first to

:47:35. > :47:38.amendments 118 to 119. This amendment together with the

:47:39. > :47:44.consequential amendments to reservation 6 in schedule 1,

:47:45. > :47:50.paragraph of schedule 2 take us back to the issues from the Government

:47:51. > :47:57.insisting on retaining the single legal jurisdiction of England and

:47:58. > :48:01.Wales. Accepting that position following last Tuesday's division we

:48:02. > :48:07.now need to ensure that the Assembly does have within the single

:48:08. > :48:10.jurisdiction powers that enail its ave within the single jurisdiction

:48:11. > :48:18.powers that enail its legislation to be -- enable its legislation to be

:48:19. > :48:23.forcible and effective. The Bill is drafted to restrict the Assembly's

:48:24. > :48:29.elective competence inappropriately in our view. It will reverse the

:48:30. > :48:35.competence given to the Assembly under the Government of Wales Act

:48:36. > :48:39.2006. Under the Act there's a provision in section 108-5 that

:48:40. > :48:45.allows the Assembly to make what might be determined ancillary

:48:46. > :48:48.provision. At present the Assembly has competence to legislate on

:48:49. > :48:56.matters that relate to one or more of the listed subjects in Part 1 of

:48:57. > :49:01.schedule 7 of the 2006 Act. The Act also provides that the Assembly has

:49:02. > :49:06.powers to make provision about non-devolved matters if it is to do,

:49:07. > :49:13.to make a devolved provision effective or to enforce it if the

:49:14. > :49:17.provision is otherwise consequential or incidental to the devolved

:49:18. > :49:25.provision. My understanding is that this is not the UK Government's

:49:26. > :49:29.intention. Our old friend unintending consequences might well

:49:30. > :49:33.result. I'm sure it is not their intention to making the Assembly to

:49:34. > :49:36.enforce or to make effective devolved legislation, because that's

:49:37. > :49:41.a wish that's common to all parties in the House. However, the Bill

:49:42. > :49:45.before Parliament now either seeks to prevent that or makes unclear as

:49:46. > :49:52.to whether the Assembly will have the same ability as it currently

:49:53. > :49:55.does under the reserved power model and provision of an Assembly Act

:49:56. > :50:03.will be outside competence if it relates to a reserved matter in

:50:04. > :50:12.schedule 7 A. There is no express equivalent in section 108-5 of the

:50:13. > :50:16.2006 Act in this Bill. A provision that relation to reserved matter

:50:17. > :50:21.will be outside competence and not law, even if the provision in

:50:22. > :50:24.question is confined to make legislation effective, or to enforce

:50:25. > :50:29.it. There are other provisions in the Bill that seek to address this

:50:30. > :50:33.issue. But Welsh Government officials have provided the Welsh

:50:34. > :50:40.Office with several examples of instances where the Bill as drafted

:50:41. > :50:45.would have prevented various uncontentious provisions in Assembly

:50:46. > :50:51.greats being included in those acts. So these are not hypothetical

:50:52. > :50:55.problems. We've had a strange history of legislation having

:50:56. > :51:01.consequences of giving us legislation that was cumbersome and

:51:02. > :51:06.slow, and also judge-driven legislation, where Acts went through

:51:07. > :51:14.and were subject to adjudication by people outside of Wales. Unless the

:51:15. > :51:18.Bill is amended the Assembly's ability to make its legislation

:51:19. > :51:23.forcible and effective will be inappropriately constrained. I

:51:24. > :51:28.believe this is not the Secretary of State's intention. We'll not be

:51:29. > :51:33.pressing these amendments the a vote but I urge the Secretary of State to

:51:34. > :51:38.take them away, give the issues which they raise very careful

:51:39. > :51:43.consideration and instruct his officials to discuss them further

:51:44. > :51:48.with Welsh Government officials and bring forward amendments at report

:51:49. > :51:53.stage to reflect an agreed position on this important issue. I mentioned

:51:54. > :51:59.some general principles which should apply to consideration of the

:52:00. > :52:04.reservation schedule. In reserved power model it is for the UK

:52:05. > :52:09.Government to explain why the relevant subject matter must be

:52:10. > :52:13.reserved to the centre, to the UK Parliament and Government for

:52:14. > :52:19.decision. Much of the content of the schedule is uncontroversial. On

:52:20. > :52:23.matters such as foreign affairs, the Armed Forces, the UK's curt system,

:52:24. > :52:27.it is common ground that these matters should be determined at UK

:52:28. > :52:32.level. On others, the situation is more contested. Where reservations

:52:33. > :52:38.impact on the current competence of the assembly, it is vital that the

:52:39. > :52:44.case for them is made explicitly and that the drafting is precise and

:52:45. > :52:51.specific. This is essential in order to protect the Assembly's ability to

:52:52. > :52:56.legislate coherently and within its competence.

:52:57. > :53:02.If it is convenient for the House I would like to comment briefly on the

:53:03. > :53:11.amendment 83, which refers to policing. This is a very interesting

:53:12. > :53:15.area where change is desirable. The UK Government's own Silk Commission

:53:16. > :53:19.recommended that policing be devolved on the basis that it is a

:53:20. > :53:25.public service, of particular concern to people this their daily

:53:26. > :53:30.lives. And is similar to health, education and the Fire Service. They

:53:31. > :53:35.reached this conclusion after taking in extensive evidence, including

:53:36. > :53:39.from professional police bodies, Chief Constables and Police and

:53:40. > :53:42.Crime Commissioners. I and that s and Police and Crime Commissioners.

:53:43. > :53:46.I and that the four present -- I understand the four present Police

:53:47. > :53:52.and Crime Commissioners in Wales are in favour of this change. They've

:53:53. > :53:56.based this proposal on opinion polling showing clear public

:53:57. > :54:00.support. Silk noted that devolution would improve counting by aligning

:54:01. > :54:06.police responsibility with police funding. Much of which already comes

:54:07. > :54:13.from devolved sources. In short, devolution would allow crime and the

:54:14. > :54:15.causes of crime to be tackled holistically under the overall

:54:16. > :54:23.policy framework of the Welsh Government. As Silk noted presents

:54:24. > :54:28.arrangements are complex, incoherent and lack transparency. Policing is

:54:29. > :54:32.the only major front line public service not currently the

:54:33. > :54:38.responsibility of the devolved institutions in Wales. This

:54:39. > :54:42.anomalous position means that the advantages of collaboration with

:54:43. > :54:45.other blue light services, which have been strongly advocated in

:54:46. > :54:51.current Government policy for England, as well as with other

:54:52. > :54:56.relevant public services, is made significantly more difficult.

:54:57. > :55:04.Deleting these reservations would address this anomaly. But

:55:05. > :55:09.responsibility for counter-terrorism activity should not be devolved, and

:55:10. > :55:15.I would continue to argue that it should be reserved by nature of

:55:16. > :55:20.reservation 31. The Assembly will only be able to legislate in respect

:55:21. > :55:24.of bodies such as the National Crime Agency as the British Transport

:55:25. > :55:30.Police with UK Ministers' consent, because they are public authorities

:55:31. > :55:34.within the meaning of paragraph 8 of schedule 2. Which will place

:55:35. > :55:42.restrictions on the Assembly's powers in respect of such bodies. So

:55:43. > :55:49.after reflecting, the Silk committee's recommendation is

:55:50. > :55:53.envisaged to take devolution of spotlights redominantly for local

:55:54. > :55:58.policemen. The key point is that devolution could enable Police

:55:59. > :56:02.Services in Wales to work even more closely alongside the other devolved

:56:03. > :56:06.public bodies with greater opportunities to secure improved

:56:07. > :56:16.community safety and crime prevention. Where this applies in

:56:17. > :56:21.England, and we have a fine example of this on which we can base our

:56:22. > :56:26.recommendations, the UK Government is pushing forward devolution of

:56:27. > :56:31.policing and justis powers with the greatest enthusiasm. Only last week

:56:32. > :56:37.it was reported that the prison Minister declared himself as a firm

:56:38. > :56:42.fan of devolution, having signed over new powers to the Mayor of

:56:43. > :56:47.Greater Manchester. He hail as new dawn for the justice system, run by

:56:48. > :56:54.locals for locals and effective justice system that meets the needs

:56:55. > :56:58.of local people. Yet in a reserved power model of devolution for Wales

:56:59. > :57:02.there is no overriding imperative to keep the control of these matters in

:57:03. > :57:06.Whitehall. Where is the inconsistency and fair treatment for

:57:07. > :57:13.Wales? If it is good enough for Manchester, surely it is good enough

:57:14. > :57:17.for Wales? Amendment 122 deals with antisocial behaviour. Whatever the

:57:18. > :57:22.outcome on policing, it is imperative not to reduce the

:57:23. > :57:27.Assembly's existing competence for dealing with antisocial behaviour in

:57:28. > :57:32.devolved context. This is why there needs to be an amendment to

:57:33. > :57:36.reservation 41 relating to antisocial behaviour. As drafted,

:57:37. > :57:42.the Bill would reserve matters currently within the simply's

:57:43. > :57:46.legislative cover tense, such as antisocial behavioural matters

:57:47. > :57:50.relating to housing or nuisance. This would represent a significant

:57:51. > :57:55.reduction in the Assembly's existing competence. The Welsh Government's

:57:56. > :58:01.amendment would narrow the reservation to be more closely

:58:02. > :58:07.reflect the currently situation. Amendment 123 is on the very good

:58:08. > :58:12.subject of alcohol. As drafted, the Bill would reserve the sale and

:58:13. > :58:19.supply of alcohol and the licensing of the provision of entertainment

:58:20. > :58:22.and late-night refreshment. These amendments propose the deletion of

:58:23. > :58:29.those rel investigations and allow the Assembly to be able to legislate

:58:30. > :58:34.on these matters. Alcohol misuse is a major public health issue and a

:58:35. > :58:40.principal cause of preventle death and illness in Wales. It can lead to

:58:41. > :58:45.a great many health and social harm problems, particularly for a

:58:46. > :58:49.significant minority of addicts and people who drink to excess and for

:58:50. > :58:55.other reasons. Given these impacts and the direct link with devolved

:58:56. > :58:59.spotlight for public health and the NHS, there's a pressing need to

:59:00. > :59:04.tackle alcohol misuse and the Assembly and Welsh Government must

:59:05. > :59:09.have the full range of tools at their disposal. Policies that

:59:10. > :59:14.control the way in which alcohol is sold and supplied are widely

:59:15. > :59:18.acknowledged to be among the most effective mechanisms for tackling

:59:19. > :59:22.alcohol-related harms. Regarding the availability of alcohol, it is an

:59:23. > :59:28.important way to reduce the harmful use of alcohol, particularly in

:59:29. > :59:33.tackling easy access to alcohol by vulnerable and high-risk groups.

:59:34. > :59:38.Licensing controls are an essential tool which must form part of the

:59:39. > :59:44.Welsh Government's strategy to tackle alcohol-related abuse. These

:59:45. > :59:47.reservations face unnecessary and inappropriate constraints on action

:59:48. > :59:53.to tackle alcohol availability in Wales. These pours are devolved in

:59:54. > :59:57.Scotland and in Northern Ireland, where similar public health

:59:58. > :59:59.challenges were faced and they should be equally devolved for

:00:00. > :00:11.Wales. Reserved trust posts. The bill

:00:12. > :00:14.enacted would enable legislation on ports and harbours and also transfer

:00:15. > :00:21.additional executive functions in respect of these from the Secretary

:00:22. > :00:26.of State to the Welsh ministers. This is welcome, it is in line with

:00:27. > :00:30.the recommendations. But the bill increases and creates a specific

:00:31. > :00:36.category of reserved transport about which the assembly could not

:00:37. > :00:41.register. And in respect of which the Welsh ministers cannot exercise

:00:42. > :00:44.any powers. The bill defines reserved trust posts in a way that

:00:45. > :00:52.means only Milford Haven would be such a port. Why is this reservation

:00:53. > :00:58.necessary? Silk made no such recommendations to reserve any trust

:00:59. > :01:01.port, unlike it did the same David spake endpaper. The then Secretary

:01:02. > :01:04.of State said when giving evidence on the draft bill to the Welsh

:01:05. > :01:09.affairs committee that the purpose the clause was to reserve Milford

:01:10. > :01:17.Haven specifically due to its status as a strategic energy poured. But

:01:18. > :01:22.the UK Government in consistently declined to site energy, security as

:01:23. > :01:29.a policy driver for investment in Milford Haven to support the sale of

:01:30. > :01:33.the more co-refinery in 2014. Aberdeen trust board could equally

:01:34. > :01:37.be seen as a strategic energy port given the importance of North Sea

:01:38. > :01:41.oil to the UK, yet it was devolved to the Scottish Government, why on

:01:42. > :01:48.earth not do the same thing with Milford Haven? Devolve its control

:01:49. > :01:51.to the Welsh assembly. So the concept of a reserved trust port is

:01:52. > :01:55.unnecessary and inappropriate and should be removed from the bill

:01:56. > :02:01.enabling the assembly to have legislative competence in respect of

:02:02. > :02:05.all trust ports in Wales including Milford Haven. As recommended by

:02:06. > :02:08.silk and the Welsh ministers powers should by virtue of these amendments

:02:09. > :02:14.extend to Milford Haven as they will to other harbours in the country.

:02:15. > :02:23.Employment and industrial relations in devolved public services are

:02:24. > :02:27.covered by the amendment one 24. The devolved public service workforce

:02:28. > :02:32.comprising those working in Wales public authorities as defined in the

:02:33. > :02:38.bill or engaged in public services are connected out of otherwise

:02:39. > :02:40.procured why such authority is intrinsically inseparable from the

:02:41. > :02:47.services and functions of those authorities. All of which work

:02:48. > :02:51.within the devolved sphere. The workforce is the main means by which

:02:52. > :02:54.authorities carry out their functions and provide services to

:02:55. > :02:59.the public. There is a well-recognised link between good

:03:00. > :03:04.employment practices and industrial relations with the authorities. And

:03:05. > :03:08.the quality of the public services they provide to the public. As the

:03:09. > :03:12.bill is drafted the assembly would not be able to legislate on

:03:13. > :03:20.workforce matters in devolved services. So this amendment proposes

:03:21. > :03:24.an exception so that the general reservation preventing the assembly

:03:25. > :03:28.from legislating on employment and industrial relations matters does

:03:29. > :03:33.not undermine the assembly's ability to legislate in respect of devolved

:03:34. > :03:37.public services and the devolved public services workforce. The

:03:38. > :03:44.amendment would not undermine the shared framework and protections in

:03:45. > :03:48.respect of employment and industrial relations spanning the private and

:03:49. > :03:54.public sectors across the UK. It would afford the assembly the chance

:03:55. > :04:00.to augment these where appropriate to support the effective delivery of

:04:01. > :04:09.devolved public services by Wales public authorities. The question on

:04:10. > :04:16.amendment 195 affect teachers pay and conditions. We agree that this

:04:17. > :04:19.reservation should be omitted. Education has been a devolved matter

:04:20. > :04:26.since the establishment of the assembly, and to retain this

:04:27. > :04:29.reservation would be anomalous in comparison to the other devolution

:04:30. > :04:33.settlements as confirmed by the silk commission. Teachers pay and

:04:34. > :04:39.conditions are also an integral part of the school system and closely

:04:40. > :04:45.interrelated to the devolved education function. Maintaining this

:04:46. > :04:53.reservation and the associated Secretary of State functions, where

:04:54. > :04:55.the two education systems in England and Wales are diverging

:04:56. > :04:59.year-on-year, makes it more difficult for the Welsh government

:05:00. > :05:04.to deliver Welsh priorities with the national pay systems and structures

:05:05. > :05:10.set up to support a different English employment model. This is

:05:11. > :05:17.the whole principle of devolution about which we all agree. The UK

:05:18. > :05:24.Government's Academy nation programme, for example, does not

:05:25. > :05:27.require the same statutory compliance with the school teachers

:05:28. > :05:32.pay and conditions document that's required for all maintained schools

:05:33. > :05:38.in Wales. Additionally the freedom in England for academies not to

:05:39. > :05:43.comply with the same professional registrations standards does not

:05:44. > :05:46.operate in Welsh maintained schools. This means that the school teachers

:05:47. > :05:53.review body report every year tends to reflect the different educational

:05:54. > :05:57.context. The relevance of the current process driven by the fact

:05:58. > :06:01.that the Secretary of State's remit, the review body, does not reflect

:06:02. > :06:05.Welsh issues, is diminishing in relation to Wales. The assembly

:06:06. > :06:10.should have legislative competence in this matter, and executive

:06:11. > :06:13.responsibility should transfer to Welsh ministers to allow for the

:06:14. > :06:22.development of an effective workforce strategy that reflects the

:06:23. > :06:34.needs of Welsh schools. Water and sewage are covered in the amendments

:06:35. > :06:37.127, 128, 129, we seek the deletion of reservation 291. There are

:06:38. > :06:42.several different aspects of policy on water. The Secretary of State is

:06:43. > :06:52.well aware of how sensitive a matter this has been for generations. Even

:06:53. > :06:57.the Secretary of State agrees, and I think this has been a matter of

:06:58. > :07:01.great contention, I recall many years ago going in to inspect public

:07:02. > :07:13.toilets in mid Wales and seeing a notice on them saying "Please flush

:07:14. > :07:15.twice, England needs our water". And continuing there has been a

:07:16. > :07:20.recognition that water is a great national resorts of Wales which is

:07:21. > :07:28.not available in the abundance in Wales as it is... We have a great

:07:29. > :07:36.richness in the water resources we have. And sadly with the great

:07:37. > :07:39.history of the other matters that concern us over many years where

:07:40. > :07:47.Wales was plundered for its natural resources, without compensation...

:07:48. > :07:53.Yes? I'm very grateful to him for giving way. As he has mentioned of

:07:54. > :08:01.course 50 years since Evans won that famous by-election in 1966, that

:08:02. > :08:04.great victory changed Welsh and arguably UK politics from that

:08:05. > :08:10.result, the drowning of true airing. Does he think it would be a fitting

:08:11. > :08:17.memorial to that great victory that this bill contains the devolution of

:08:18. > :08:20.water to Wales? I think that would be entirely appropriate. He reminds

:08:21. > :08:30.us of matters subject to great passion at the time. And I believe

:08:31. > :08:35.it did have as many points in history have, consecrating the

:08:36. > :08:38.feelings of Wales about their national identity. What was seen to

:08:39. > :08:52.be an injustice against the people of Wales. But I do remember the

:08:53. > :08:56.events vividly. I'm grateful. On the subject, I could not let the point

:08:57. > :09:02.of discussion pass, I wonder if my honourable friend would be so kind

:09:03. > :09:08.as to put on record his admiration for Lord Thomas Williams Jones who

:09:09. > :09:20.was the member of Parliament who chaired the action committee. Happy

:09:21. > :09:24.to record that, and I think it is worth mentioning that it was opposed

:09:25. > :09:36.by every single Welsh member of this house, it was not subject to one

:09:37. > :09:43.party at the time. I look back with pride on the Labour MPs and peers

:09:44. > :09:45.who took part in the early days of establishing the Welsh identity,

:09:46. > :09:54.particularly the North Wales area, when we had a large number of Welsh

:09:55. > :10:00.speaking MPs here who would have dreams of the day like today,

:10:01. > :10:09.passing legislation. They were full of high hopes at the time. But we

:10:10. > :10:13.are taking these steps forward now, and the dreams of the past

:10:14. > :10:19.generations are now being fulfilled and honoured. There's the scope of

:10:20. > :10:22.the assembly's legislative competence in this field, an

:10:23. > :10:26.interesting one. The Welsh government is seeking full

:10:27. > :10:31.devolution of water and sewage to be aligned with the geographical

:10:32. > :10:36.boundary with England as set out in the silk report and the UK

:10:37. > :10:44.Government's command paper. The joint government water and sewage

:10:45. > :10:47.evolution programme board was set up to consider the alignment of

:10:48. > :10:52.legislative competence within the National border. The programme

:10:53. > :10:58.focused on any impact on consumers and engaged with the regulator,

:10:59. > :11:04.consumer and representatives. The water companies and both governments

:11:05. > :11:07.took part. The work of the programme has now concluded. I understand the

:11:08. > :11:14.evidence confirmed that these changes can be achieved with minimal

:11:15. > :11:20.impact on the consumers of water and sewage services. So, legislative

:11:21. > :11:24.competence for water should be aligned with the National border.

:11:25. > :11:26.I'll take this opportunity to mention the related aspects of

:11:27. > :11:33.policy on Wales including the amendment to close 44 and a new

:11:34. > :11:39.clause with your permission, new clause ten. Clause 44 of the bill

:11:40. > :11:42.will amend section 114 of the 2006 act by adding to the grounds on

:11:43. > :11:47.which the Secretary of State can intervene to prevent the presiding

:11:48. > :11:56.officer from submitting an assembly Bill for Royal assent. Section 144

:11:57. > :12:01.currently allows such interventions inter alia. If the Secretary of

:12:02. > :12:04.State has reasonable grounds to believe the bill contains provisions

:12:05. > :12:11.which might have serious adverse impact on watery sauce is, supply or

:12:12. > :12:16.quality in England -- water resources. The Wales Bill will add

:12:17. > :12:20.to this by allowing intervention to the bill if it might have serious

:12:21. > :12:27.adverse impact on sewage services and systems in England. In the Welsh

:12:28. > :12:34.government's review, with which I totally agree, the intervention

:12:35. > :12:36.aspect in respect of water should be replaced by a memorandum of

:12:37. > :12:41.understanding between the Welsh and the UK Government 's on how

:12:42. > :12:46.cross-border water issues should be managed. This was also the view of

:12:47. > :12:51.the silk commission which recommended that a formal

:12:52. > :12:56.intergovernmental protocol should be established in relation to

:12:57. > :13:01.cross-border water issues. And the Secretary of State's existing,

:13:02. > :13:06.legitimate and executive powers of intervention in relation to water

:13:07. > :13:14.should be removed in favour of mechanisms under the intergovernment

:13:15. > :13:18.protocol. It follows that the Welsh government proposal to the proposed

:13:19. > :13:28.extension 44 of these intervention powers to sewage and also would wish

:13:29. > :13:38.to see as section 114, and 152 amended to remove this intervention.

:13:39. > :13:46.I'm very grateful to the honourable gentleman for giving way. In respect

:13:47. > :13:48.of clause 114 and 152, can I draw his attention to amendments that

:13:49. > :13:54.will be debated later this evening which I will hope to remove those

:13:55. > :13:59.clauses. I don't want to pre-empt the debate but to give the gentleman

:14:00. > :14:04.fair warning that if the stance we will be taking, and it would achieve

:14:05. > :14:08.precisely the end he has just described. I am grateful for the

:14:09. > :14:11.honourable gentleman for pointing that out. We are in a position of

:14:12. > :14:15.agreeing with many of the amendments that have been put forward by the

:14:16. > :14:20.honourable gentleman and his party. On some of them, although we will

:14:21. > :14:25.support them, and I support them now in the speech I am making, but there

:14:26. > :14:30.are some on which we wish to take consultation is because of the speed

:14:31. > :14:33.at which this bill is going through. We are very agreeable. But it means

:14:34. > :14:38.there are certain groups and individuals that we have not yet

:14:39. > :14:40.consulted, so we might not yet be supporting the honourable

:14:41. > :14:46.gentleman's amendments in the lobbies. Although we have a great

:14:47. > :14:55.deal of agreement with them. Can I say that what we are hoping to

:14:56. > :15:03.divide the house on is our clause 83. If I could say finally with new

:15:04. > :15:08.clause ten in this section, this is the issue of off water

:15:09. > :15:13.accountability which is the subject of new clause ten. Off-board should

:15:14. > :15:16.be fully accountable to the National Assembly for Wales in respect of the

:15:17. > :15:23.functions it exercises in relation to Wales, especially as legislative

:15:24. > :15:28.competence in respect of water and sewage would be fully devolved.

:15:29. > :15:35.The new clause will make it a requirement for Ofwat to produce a

:15:36. > :15:43.report to Welsh ministers and that will be related before the National

:15:44. > :15:47.Assembly. The proposed amendment to require the Secretary of State to

:15:48. > :15:50.seek the consent of the Welsh ministers before giving directions

:15:51. > :15:57.to Ofwat in respect of these matters. I would like to conclude my

:15:58. > :16:02.remarks. I'm grateful for your patience in listening to these

:16:03. > :16:08.larger number of amendments that we have. What we are suggesting in the

:16:09. > :16:12.Ofwat ones is that the changes are necessary so that Ofwat is fully

:16:13. > :16:14.accountable to the National Assembly for Wales and the Welsh ministers

:16:15. > :16:20.for these functions to be at exercise ball in relation to Wales.

:16:21. > :16:25.This is another step forward in devolution and I would be grateful

:16:26. > :16:31.if the government of the House had been serious considerations to the

:16:32. > :16:39.proposals made. The question is that amendment 118 be made. David Jones?

:16:40. > :16:43.Thank you Mr Hoyle. I wish to speak briefly to amendment 160 one. Which

:16:44. > :16:54.is in my name and that of the honourable members. This seeks to

:16:55. > :16:58.amend schedule one by reserving the setting of speed limits in Wales and

:16:59. > :17:06.the design of road and traffic signs. It seems to me that the whole

:17:07. > :17:12.purpose of devolution should be not to make life more difficult but to

:17:13. > :17:16.make life easier. We will be debating a great deal of practical

:17:17. > :17:22.amendments to the Bill this evening. It seems to me this is one where the

:17:23. > :17:28.practical purpose of devolution would be better served by reserving

:17:29. > :17:34.these competences. Dealing first with the issue of speed limits, I

:17:35. > :17:39.would strongly suggest it would be highly counter-productive for there

:17:40. > :17:45.to be different differential speed limits between England and Wales.

:17:46. > :17:53.And the fact is that the road systems of England and Wales are

:17:54. > :17:55.closely integrated. Every day, many thousands of commuters travel

:17:56. > :18:01.backwards and forwards across the border and at certain times of year

:18:02. > :18:06.of course particularly holiday periods, there are considerable

:18:07. > :18:13.numbers of visitors from other parts of the United Kingdom. And also the

:18:14. > :18:19.continent of Europe. These are not confined to the principal arterial

:18:20. > :18:23.routes of the M4 and the a 55. In fact there are a number of other

:18:24. > :18:28.important routes that cross the border, not all of them east to

:18:29. > :18:34.west, many of them north to south. I'm thinking most particularly of

:18:35. > :18:38.the A483 which is the principal route between Manchester and

:18:39. > :18:46.Swansea, which crosses and three crosses the border at several

:18:47. > :18:50.points. And again, the A490 which is another well-known border route. It

:18:51. > :18:53.does seem to me that have differential speed limits, national

:18:54. > :19:00.speed limits at distances of every or three miles is going to be at the

:19:01. > :19:05.very least confusing and at the very worst positively dangerous. I would

:19:06. > :19:10.suggest that the context of England and Wales is different from the

:19:11. > :19:14.context of England and Scotland. The integration of the road network

:19:15. > :19:18.between England and Wales is far closer. I think in terms of

:19:19. > :19:26.practicality is it makes no sense whatsoever to devolve the setting of

:19:27. > :19:29.speed limits to Cardiff. I'm following these arguments with

:19:30. > :19:32.considerable interest. Is he saying that motorists are unable to cope

:19:33. > :19:41.with changes in speed limits which are signalled by appropriate signs

:19:42. > :19:50.in my own constituency. I know of a road where it is 40, then 30 then

:19:51. > :19:55.20, then 30 and then 40. He will remember the former Chief Constable

:19:56. > :20:00.of North Wales who generated quite substantial funds out of the

:20:01. > :20:05.inattention to speed limits on the part of motorists. My point is not

:20:06. > :20:09.so much local speed remits, its national speed limit. It seems to me

:20:10. > :20:13.that it is far more sensible if the national speed limit is something

:20:14. > :20:17.set by the Department for Transport in London. If necessary, in

:20:18. > :20:23.consultation with the Welsh Assembly government. I do think that when

:20:24. > :20:27.there is such a closely integrated main transport road network between

:20:28. > :20:32.the two nations it makes no sense to have differential speed limits. The

:20:33. > :20:37.second point I wish to make is in connection with road signs. And

:20:38. > :20:41.again, principally on the same grounds, where we have such a

:20:42. > :20:48.closely integrated road network. It is I think, it does have the

:20:49. > :20:51.potential to cause considerable difficulty if the Welsh government

:20:52. > :20:59.were to decide for whatever reason, completely to redesign road signs. I

:21:00. > :21:04.think that that would be, again, not only confusing but positively

:21:05. > :21:10.dangerous. So I believe again, and I would suggest in consultation with

:21:11. > :21:13.the Welsh government, the competence for the design of road signs should

:21:14. > :21:23.remain with the Department for Transport in London. I hope that

:21:24. > :21:29.this... Certainly. Is his contention based on any research, as I seem to

:21:30. > :21:33.remember when I was at extensive debate in Wales, he will remember

:21:34. > :21:41.about having Welsh language road signs and bilingual signs. Various

:21:42. > :21:45.aspects were researched by the Road research laboratory, the AA, who

:21:46. > :21:52.predicted all kinds of doom should we have bilingual signs. Does he

:21:53. > :21:56.have any similar research into differential speed limits? I have no

:21:57. > :22:01.objection to bilingual road signs. I think they should be in courage to.

:22:02. > :22:08.It is not so much a question of the language is the design of the same

:22:09. > :22:12.-- the design of the signage. Most of our road signs follow European

:22:13. > :22:18.norms, it may be that they don't in the future. If we are to have

:22:19. > :22:23.consistency and avoid danger we should have consistency in the

:22:24. > :22:28.design of road signage. Yes, I give way. I think you're forgiving way.

:22:29. > :22:35.My constituency is one of those but has road traversing both England and

:22:36. > :22:39.Wales. What a great pity it would be to see the gorgeous countryside

:22:40. > :22:44.littered with even more road signs up and down Wales. What a great

:22:45. > :22:52.shame it would be to those visitors who come to Wales for that wonderful

:22:53. > :22:57.experience. I'm sure we could have fewer, we might have more. My

:22:58. > :23:00.concern as they shouldn't be so different as to cause accidents on

:23:01. > :23:05.the part of motorists wondering what the heck that sign meant as they

:23:06. > :23:10.passed it. In terms of practicality there is and a persuasive case. I

:23:11. > :23:14.never really understood the case the devolution of road signs. I give

:23:15. > :23:20.way. It's far more distracting and dangerous than all these Tory

:23:21. > :23:24.posters we get at election time which cause far greater danger of

:23:25. > :23:29.destruction than any road signs. I have to say that I've never received

:23:30. > :23:34.anything but praise the conservative signage and I received even more

:23:35. > :23:40.praise for the fight leave signs noticeable by their presence

:23:41. > :23:46.throughout Wales -- Vote Leave signs. This is a probing amendment.

:23:47. > :23:50.I would be grateful to hear from my right honourable friend as to the

:23:51. > :23:57.rationale for these two proposals. It does seem to me that at the very

:23:58. > :24:07.least they are confusing, at the worst they have the potential to be

:24:08. > :24:15.positively dangerous. I must take this opportunity to congratulate the

:24:16. > :24:22.Welsh team for the brightest, most joyful memories of the last few

:24:23. > :24:27.weeks. I rise to speak to the amendments in this group which

:24:28. > :24:31.tabled in my name and in the names of my Plaid Cymru colleagues. These

:24:32. > :24:38.amendments seek to amend schedule seven A of the government words act

:24:39. > :24:41.2006 and related clause three of the bill which deals with the

:24:42. > :24:45.legislative competence of the national Assembly of Wales. The

:24:46. > :24:50.majority of our amendments seek to aim at certain reservations from the

:24:51. > :24:53.Ford mentioned schedules. The amendments are intended in some

:24:54. > :24:58.cases to restore competence in areas which are already devolved and in

:24:59. > :25:01.others, to devolve competence to the Assembly in areas which are devolved

:25:02. > :25:05.to Scotland. If the government is not prepared to give the Welsh

:25:06. > :25:11.Assembly parity with the Scottish Parliament in these areas we would

:25:12. > :25:17.ask for specific reasons to be given in these instances. I would note by

:25:18. > :25:21.the Welsh affairs select committee and the national Assembly's

:25:22. > :25:25.constitutional affairs committee have written reports on the draft

:25:26. > :25:29.Wales Bill legislation and both committees called on the UK

:25:30. > :25:33.Government to provide individual justification is that each of the

:25:34. > :25:36.reservations now contained in schedule seven A. As such it is a

:25:37. > :25:40.great disappointment to my colleagues and me that the

:25:41. > :25:44.government has not seen fit to provide us with these

:25:45. > :25:46.justifications. I would like the Secretary of State to explain why

:25:47. > :25:50.the government hasn't been forthcoming. If further

:25:51. > :25:55.justifications cannot be provided we would argue that the government

:25:56. > :25:59.should amend the schedule so as to omit those areas outlined in our

:26:00. > :26:02.amendments. Plaid Cymru hasn't been alone in saying this over many

:26:03. > :26:08.years, that the national Assembly should move to a reserve powers

:26:09. > :26:11.model. The independent cross-party commission made such a

:26:12. > :26:16.recommendation. Legal experts and much of civil society in Wales

:26:17. > :26:20.recognised that adopting a reserved powers model should in theory

:26:21. > :26:24.provide greater legal clarity and work ability. The idea of moving

:26:25. > :26:30.towards a reserve powers model has also been taken in Wales to

:26:31. > :26:34.symbolise a shift in Westminster's attitude towards the Assembly. This

:26:35. > :26:38.is because it was assumed to be synonymous with the maturing of

:26:39. > :26:42.relations between them. Rather than having to justify devolving an area

:26:43. > :26:46.of competence, Westminster will be compelled to justify reserving an

:26:47. > :26:51.area of law which should again have represented a significant

:26:52. > :26:57.attitudinal shift and a recognition of greater parity. But, the sheer

:26:58. > :27:01.length of the list of reserved areas contained in the schedule has made a

:27:02. > :27:04.mockery of this notion. It should have come as no surprise to the

:27:05. > :27:10.Wales Office that the original draft Wales Bill was met with such dismay

:27:11. > :27:16.by the Welsh Assembly and civil society. The long, dismayingly long

:27:17. > :27:20.list of reservations and the way in which the bill went so far in some

:27:21. > :27:23.cases as to curtail power was already devolved, would

:27:24. > :27:28.fundamentally undermine the Assembly's confidence. It would do

:27:29. > :27:32.the opposite of what was presumably intended. While we are grateful the

:27:33. > :27:37.previous Secretary of State announced a pause in introducing the

:27:38. > :27:40.legislation, we still believe that schedule 7a shows the paucity of

:27:41. > :27:48.ambition for Wales. That is why we have drafted the amendments in this

:27:49. > :27:51.grouping. Amendments 83, 86, 110 and 111 seek to devolve aspects of the

:27:52. > :27:56.justice system to the Assembly. These cover the legal professional

:27:57. > :28:02.and legal services, crime, public order and policing, the

:28:03. > :28:07.rehabilitation of offenders and prisons and offender management. As

:28:08. > :28:13.has been pointed out in this House on many occasions and was championed

:28:14. > :28:17.by my predecessor, Wales is the only legislature which has no separate or

:28:18. > :28:22.distinct legal jurisdiction of its own. The matter of a separate legal

:28:23. > :28:26.jurisdiction was debated last week so I won't repeat my arguments.

:28:27. > :28:30.While I accept the Tories disagree with the need for a separate

:28:31. > :28:35.jurisdiction, I remain somewhat confused by the position of official

:28:36. > :28:39.opposition who said they supported it but abstained because the

:28:40. > :28:42.government doesn't support it. If the official opposition can only

:28:43. > :28:47.vote in favour of measures supported by the government, then I suggest

:28:48. > :28:50.they are not well fitted to being the official opposition. Given that

:28:51. > :28:55.our amendment was defeated last week we will use the report stage of this

:28:56. > :28:59.bill to bring forward proposals on a distinct rather than separate

:29:00. > :29:04.jurisdiction, and I hope that the House will be more open to working

:29:05. > :29:09.with us when the time comes. It is well-known that the silk commission

:29:10. > :29:11.recommended that evolution of policing in related areas of

:29:12. > :29:17.community policing and crime prevention. We are resolute that

:29:18. > :29:25.Wales should have responsibility for its police forces. We are presenting

:29:26. > :29:28.this amendment at a time when it is being proposed that policing is

:29:29. > :29:33.devolved to Manchester and Liverpool for examples. If the policing can be

:29:34. > :29:38.held to account in a devolved landscape, why not be policing of

:29:39. > :29:42.Wales? The First Minister supports the devolution of policing, all the

:29:43. > :29:46.crime commissioners support devolution of policing. I welcome

:29:47. > :29:49.what was said by the Secretary of State for Wales about the devolution

:29:50. > :29:54.of policing and I would feel therefore that the time is right for

:29:55. > :29:58.this to move ahead. And in able police of Wales to work directly to

:29:59. > :30:00.improve the lives and safety of the people of Wales, according to their

:30:01. > :30:10.unique needs and priorities. I intend to push this amendment to a

:30:11. > :30:14.division. We are also of the belief that prisons and offender management

:30:15. > :30:17.should be devolved to say that sentences, magistrates and privation

:30:18. > :30:21.can reflect the distinct priorities of this separately got your

:30:22. > :30:25.stitching. Wales should have a prison system that meets the needs

:30:26. > :30:29.of our society so that provisions can be best made to support the

:30:30. > :30:34.needs of Welsh inmates and their families and which allow for far

:30:35. > :30:39.better rehabilitation into our communities. I will give waste point

:30:40. > :30:42.I am grateful my honourable friend. Does she think it is scandalous that

:30:43. > :30:47.there is no provision for women prisoners in Wales? There are many

:30:48. > :30:54.female prisoners but they are held in England outside Gloucester. And

:30:55. > :30:58.that provides particular problems for the families of prisoners,

:30:59. > :31:02.particularly from the west of Wales. We are aware in the north that there

:31:03. > :31:07.is no prison for women and neither for young people or offenders. There

:31:08. > :31:09.are many steps afoot to improve her women who entered the criminal

:31:10. > :31:18.justice system are treated in Wales, which are to be welcomed. Certainly

:31:19. > :31:23.the union HMP style is a long way away from people's homes and there

:31:24. > :31:27.must be a better way to deal. I will give way. I am very grateful to the

:31:28. > :31:31.honourable lady for giving way. She alluded to the position of

:31:32. > :31:36.rehabilitation of young offenders and this essential relationship

:31:37. > :31:41.which devolve in these matters would support would be the

:31:42. > :31:44.interrelationship between health and education to render rehabilitation

:31:45. > :31:52.successful. This is a gross admission from this pill recognition

:31:53. > :31:56.of that fact. I can only agree. I will give way. I am very grateful to

:31:57. > :32:00.my colleague for giving way. As always she is making a very

:32:01. > :32:04.compelling case full of very strong arguments. Does she agree with me

:32:05. > :32:10.that we have a slightly ironic situation whereby the referendum has

:32:11. > :32:14.just been won to leave the European Union partly on the basis of

:32:15. > :32:17.democracy and sovereignty yet here we are debating a Wales Bill when

:32:18. > :32:22.compared to Scotland and Northern Ireland it seems to be denying

:32:23. > :32:31.sovereignty and democracy to Wales? I feel that we are, with this bill,

:32:32. > :32:40.moving ahead in some small steps. Inching, painfully. I await the time

:32:41. > :32:44.when we will be moving ahead in a better way. I move on from those

:32:45. > :32:49.amendments which of course, many of which were recommended by the silk

:32:50. > :32:55.commission. Following on from these I would like to turn to a number of

:32:56. > :33:00.amendments including amendment 85, the reservation of prostitution from

:33:01. > :33:07.the list of reserve powers. The amendment which removes the

:33:08. > :33:10.reservation of knives. And the movement of the reservation of a

:33:11. > :33:15.porch, which brings Wales into line with Scotland and Northern Ireland.

:33:16. > :33:18.I can only challenge the Secretary of State to stand up and say why he

:33:19. > :33:22.voted for Scotland to have these powers but is now telling us in

:33:23. > :33:28.Wales that we cannot have these powers. Amendment 155 is distinctive

:33:29. > :33:31.because it seeks to clarify the resolution and not omitted entirely.

:33:32. > :33:36.The amendment clarifies the reservation is being Crown

:33:37. > :33:39.Prosecution Service rather than the broader prosecutors currently

:33:40. > :33:44.drafted. This amendment is crucial since the wording units current form

:33:45. > :33:47.would prohibit assembly legislation enabling devolved authorities such

:33:48. > :33:50.as local authorities from prosecuting. I hope the government

:33:51. > :33:55.will take note of this distinction and amend this accordingly.

:33:56. > :34:01.Amendment 156 removes the necessity test in relation to the law of

:34:02. > :34:05.reserved matters. The test of necessity is on grounds of clarity

:34:06. > :34:08.and work ability as it is capable of a number of different

:34:09. > :34:10.interpretations. One possible interpretation is extremely

:34:11. > :34:13.restrictive and would represent a reduction in the assembly 's current

:34:14. > :34:21.competence. The difference between a reserved matter and the law on

:34:22. > :34:25.reserved matters is explained in paragraphs 494 211, 413 to 414 in

:34:26. > :34:33.the Esplanade free notes to the bill. The assembly Bill written

:34:34. > :34:36.related entirely to planning and modified provision to the UK

:34:37. > :34:40.Parliamentary act concerning telecommunications. A modification

:34:41. > :34:44.might be within the assembly 's competence as its purpose might

:34:45. > :34:47.relate entirely to planning, and so it would meet the test set out in

:34:48. > :34:50.new section one await a bracket six close

:34:51. > :34:59.. But by modifying the provision of the UK out of Parliament which

:35:00. > :35:03.concerned reserved matter, it would modify the lawn reserved matters.

:35:04. > :35:09.The assembly should be able to do so in a purely ancillary way without

:35:10. > :35:13.showing the modification date has no greater effect than is necessary. An

:35:14. > :35:18.equivalent to the bill provisions contained in the Scotland act, 1998.

:35:19. > :35:22.However, in the context of Scottish devolution settlement it is much

:35:23. > :35:26.less restrictive as the Scottish Parliament has competence over

:35:27. > :35:31.considerably greater fields, including of course justice matters

:35:32. > :35:34.I'm the self Scottish Masters of criminal law. Therefore what might

:35:35. > :35:38.appear to be wider latitude for the assembly would in practice still

:35:39. > :35:44.amount to narrow competence. Narrower competence than that of the

:35:45. > :35:48.Scottish Parliament. Amendment 157 removes the criminal law restriction

:35:49. > :35:51.in paragraph four of schedule 47 B. And replaces it with a restriction

:35:52. > :35:56.which provides the assembly cannot modify criminal law unless it is for

:35:57. > :36:02.a purpose other than a reserve purpose. It reflects the assembly 's

:36:03. > :36:06.current competence, ie the criminal law as a silent subject, and they

:36:07. > :36:11.simply can't modify the law if it relates to a devolved subject or an

:36:12. > :36:14.ancillary. The assembly therefore could not modify the criminal law if

:36:15. > :36:19.it was for a reserve purpose, thus protecting the criminal law around

:36:20. > :36:23.the 200 or so reservations in the Wales Bill. The amendment also makes

:36:24. > :36:27.it clear that the assembly could not modify the criminal law for its own

:36:28. > :36:31.sake. There must be a devolved purpose behind the modification of

:36:32. > :36:35.the criminal law. It aligns the criminal law restriction with the

:36:36. > :36:41.private law restriction in paragraph three U seven B, and this would

:36:42. > :36:45.provide consistency and clarity. I have spoken of my party is dismayed

:36:46. > :36:49.that the bill under consideration threatens in places to dilate rather

:36:50. > :36:52.than augment legislative competency of the assembly. In this vein and

:36:53. > :36:56.number of the amendments in this ruling seem to clarify the assembly

:36:57. > :37:02.'s powers in relation to its internal functions as well as its

:37:03. > :37:07.overall competence to legislate. Amendments 148, 149 seat to restore

:37:08. > :37:10.the assembly 's competence close to its current level. Currently the

:37:11. > :37:13.assembly is able to affect in a minor weight matters that are listed

:37:14. > :37:18.as exemptions from competence schedule seven to the government of

:37:19. > :37:21.Wales act 2006. Most of these exceptions have been converted into

:37:22. > :37:25.reservations in the proposed new settlement, for example consumer

:37:26. > :37:28.protection. However, under the new settlement the assembly would have

:37:29. > :37:33.no confidence to legislate in a way which touches on reserved matters at

:37:34. > :37:36.all. The assembly can also currently legislate in relation to silence

:37:37. > :37:39.objects, that is topics which are not listed as either subject of

:37:40. > :37:44.competence nor acceptance from competence, in schedule seven of the

:37:45. > :37:47.government of Wales act. This we can do so only where it is also

:37:48. > :37:52.legislating on a subject which is specifically devolved. Many of these

:37:53. > :37:55.silence objects, for example employment rights and duties, have

:37:56. > :37:59.been converted into reservations in the bill. The amendment would

:38:00. > :38:04.restore the assembly 's competence to affect those topics in a purely

:38:05. > :38:09.ancillary way. However the ancillary competence would still be narrower

:38:10. > :38:11.than the assembly 's current ability to legislate on silence objects when

:38:12. > :38:16.it relates to expressly devolved subjects. It is an attempt to allow

:38:17. > :38:20.the aforementioned institution to have control and oversight over its

:38:21. > :38:24.lawmaking. Amendment six would give the assembly the power to

:38:25. > :38:26.consolidate in both English and Welsh, the statutes bill containing

:38:27. > :38:31.the current constitutional settlement affecting Wales. Now, no

:38:32. > :38:34.matter what your position on empowering the simply, I am sure we

:38:35. > :38:37.can all agree that it's important that whatever settlement we have,

:38:38. > :38:42.that settlement is easily understood. It is disappointing that

:38:43. > :38:46.this bill does not consolidate all existing legislation, that this

:38:47. > :38:51.amendment would allow the National Assembly to do that in the interest

:38:52. > :38:55.of clarity. It does not allow the National Assembly to go beyond

:38:56. > :39:01.current legislation beyond its competence. Amendment 34 to 37,

:39:02. > :39:04.scheduled to paragraph 37 which sets out the sections of the government

:39:05. > :39:12.of Wales act which the assembly will have competence to modify. Paragraph

:39:13. > :39:16.72 D specifically refers to part five of the 2006 act, and the ball

:39:17. > :39:22.without restriction. As it stands, this does not include the ability to

:39:23. > :39:26.amend sections on 102 brackets one or 104 brackets three of the

:39:27. > :39:29.government of Wales act which provided for relevant persons,

:39:30. > :39:33.otherwise known as direct funded bodies, which receives funding

:39:34. > :39:37.directly from the Welsh Consolidated funds, for example that means the

:39:38. > :39:40.Welsh government, assembly commission, public service ombudsman

:39:41. > :39:45.for Wales. Amendments 35 and 36 would allow the assembly competence

:39:46. > :39:50.to add to but not removed from the list of relevant persons. This would

:39:51. > :39:53.allow the assembly to enable a body which is independent of Welsh

:39:54. > :39:57.government to also be financially independent where this is deemed

:39:58. > :40:01.appropriate. Any use of such competence to add to the relevant

:40:02. > :40:04.persons would require an act of the assembly. Skrtel to paragraph seven

:40:05. > :40:09.provides the remaining provisions of part five of the 2006 act. End of

:40:10. > :40:12.the where the amendment is incidental to or consequential on

:40:13. > :40:15.the provision of the act of the assembly relating to budgetary

:40:16. > :40:19.procedures and the Secretary of State consents to that amendment. I

:40:20. > :40:22.see no reason why the consent of the Secretary of State should be

:40:23. > :40:26.required to an amendment which will have no impact beyond the assembly

:40:27. > :40:30.'s financial procedures. So amendment 37 removes that

:40:31. > :40:36.requirement. I turned to the remaining amendments in this group.

:40:37. > :40:41.As I have already indicated, the majority I like carriers of

:40:42. > :40:45.competence which are devolved to the Scottish parliament. Yet for some

:40:46. > :40:48.unstated reason are being reserved to Westminster in the state of

:40:49. > :40:51.Wales. No justification has been given for reserving these matters

:40:52. > :41:00.and I reiterate this. Consequently and for this reason a list of

:41:01. > :41:12.amendments now, amendment 84 and 87 and 88, 90, 91, 92, 93, 94, 97, 98,

:41:13. > :41:19.106, 103, without listing them all I just gave the numbers. The Secretary

:41:20. > :41:22.of State is allowing Whitehall to pick and choose which powers they

:41:23. > :41:26.want to hold onto. We would argue strongly he must draw his list of

:41:27. > :41:31.reservations based on principles. These reservations make the

:41:32. > :41:34.practical sense in the absence of principle is obvious. They range

:41:35. > :41:38.from the reservation of dangerous dogs to hovercraft to sports grounds

:41:39. > :41:47.and health and safety. We need a reason as to why these areas should

:41:48. > :41:55.be reserved. In addition there are 105, 107, 104, 112, 113, amendment

:41:56. > :42:00.89, relation to Sunday trading, looking to safeguard the

:42:01. > :42:03.long-standing tradition in Wales of protecting shop workers terms and

:42:04. > :42:10.conditions. Amendment 114 and amendment 115. Over and above this

:42:11. > :42:13.Plaid Cymru have long argued that the Department for Work and Pensions

:42:14. > :42:18.should be devolved to the assembly. All working age benefits to be

:42:19. > :42:23.replaced by universal credit and any benefits introduced to replace

:42:24. > :42:27.universal credit, 102, 108 and 99, they are all in those areas of the

:42:28. > :42:33.Department for Work and Pensions functions which we have long argued

:42:34. > :42:37.to be devolved. Amendments 91, 96, 63, 69, deal with the newly created

:42:38. > :42:42.Welsh harbours and reserve trust ports. This creation once again has

:42:43. > :42:46.no justification. A port will now be devolved unless it has a turnover

:42:47. > :42:50.over a certain threshold. Again not in the case of Scotland and Northern

:42:51. > :42:54.Ireland, only Wales. Yet another set of examples of Westminster holding

:42:55. > :42:58.onto as much power as possible while appearing to be offering significant

:42:59. > :43:02.devolution. I challenge the Secretary of State once again to

:43:03. > :43:06.tell us why this is necessary in Wales when he himself voted to

:43:07. > :43:12.devolved full control to Scotland. Amendment to is consequential on new

:43:13. > :43:16.pool is one which seeks to devolved legislative competence of the Crown

:43:17. > :43:19.estate in Wales to the Welsh government and National Assembly for

:43:20. > :43:23.Wales as has been done in Scotland. New clause seven would devolved

:43:24. > :43:27.general legislative competence in respect of agricultural and

:43:28. > :43:30.fisheries levies. These are areas which Plaid Cymru have long argued

:43:31. > :43:34.to be devolved to the National Assembly. Prior to bringing my

:43:35. > :43:38.contribution to a close I wish to note concerns expressed to me by the

:43:39. > :43:41.Welsh language commissioner regarding the bill 's potential

:43:42. > :43:44.effects on the National Assembly 's powers to legislate matters

:43:45. > :43:48.concerning the Welsh language. The possible effects scheduled to be

:43:49. > :43:50.clause eight is that the National Assembly, should it wish to

:43:51. > :43:55.legislate for the Welshman which, would require consent of the

:43:56. > :43:58.relevant minister to convert, impose, modify or remove within

:43:59. > :44:02.legislation the Welsh language functions of ministers of the Crown,

:44:03. > :44:06.government departments or other reserved authorities. Under the

:44:07. > :44:09.current settlement ministerial consent is only required when

:44:10. > :44:13.legislating to impose Welsh language functions on ministers of the Crown.

:44:14. > :44:16.The ministerial consent provisions of the Wales Bill in relation to the

:44:17. > :44:19.Welsh language would appear to be applicable to a wider range of

:44:20. > :44:23.persons and is presently the case, and would thus be more restrictive.

:44:24. > :44:30.I hope this can be considered in later stages. To close, the

:44:31. > :44:34.amendments in this grouping should not be considered as a mere

:44:35. > :44:38.separate, distinct tweaks to the Wales before. Rather we present them

:44:39. > :44:43.as a collection of amendments which, by their sheer number, make evidence

:44:44. > :44:48.the many ways in which the current proposals is deficient. No

:44:49. > :44:52.justification has been given by the government as to why these many

:44:53. > :44:56.policy areas have been reserved. And no justification has been given as

:44:57. > :45:00.to why Wales's assembly should not be granted the same competence as

:45:01. > :45:03.the Scottish Parliament in these areas. In the absence of these

:45:04. > :45:06.justifications I would respectfully urge the government to amend their

:45:07. > :45:07.bill and to present a bolder version, a bolder vision of

:45:08. > :45:15.legislation. The government should not miss the

:45:16. > :45:19.opportunity to enable the Welsh Assembly to grow in competence and

:45:20. > :45:23.confidence. With responsibility comes capability. We should be given

:45:24. > :45:33.the power to legislate in these areas. While I have misgivings about

:45:34. > :45:39.a number of elements of this bill, I wish to speak very briefly with

:45:40. > :45:43.reference to amendment 160 one. This addresses the proposed transfer of

:45:44. > :45:46.powers over national speed limits from Westminster to Cardiff Bay.

:45:47. > :45:54.I've already spoken about this issue during pre-legislative scrutiny and

:45:55. > :46:02.also at Welsh grand committee. To be clear, the power to set specific

:46:03. > :46:08.speed limits such as 29 -- 20 mph zones outside schools, that power

:46:09. > :46:14.already lies with local authorities and with the Welsh Assembly

:46:15. > :46:19.government, and quite rightly. But the Welsh bill proposes transferring

:46:20. > :46:26.powers over national speed limits. To me, those include 30 miles an

:46:27. > :46:30.hour in built-up areas, 60 mph limit in non-built-up areas and 70 mph

:46:31. > :46:35.limit on jewel carriageways and motorways. These in my mind that

:46:36. > :46:39.etched on the brains of all of us via the Highway code and are usually

:46:40. > :46:44.clear in the absence of any signage based on the type of road. We all

:46:45. > :46:49.live on a small island and over 200 raids straddled the England and

:46:50. > :46:54.Wales border. In the case of many smaller roads the border is not as

:46:55. > :47:00.the mark by any signage at all. In some cases it cuts across housing

:47:01. > :47:05.estate roads or even runs along roads and splits them in half. Raids

:47:06. > :47:09.across the UK are subject to the same safety criteria, as our

:47:10. > :47:15.vehicles. Taking this into account its clear to me that the prospect of

:47:16. > :47:23.a different national speed limits in England and Wales simply wouldn't be

:47:24. > :47:26.either desirable nor realistic. He does describe the complexity of the

:47:27. > :47:32.border in some areas but does he have no confidence in the Welsh

:47:33. > :47:37.Assembly or the government in Wales in administering different speed

:47:38. > :47:41.limits sensibly? It's perfectly possible that can be done but I

:47:42. > :47:45.didn't see the point. It would create extra confusion and would be

:47:46. > :47:48.a plethora of signs at the border. There would have to be a huge

:47:49. > :47:57.information exercise which I think would fail to get to the users of

:47:58. > :48:00.those roads in many cases. To close in fact, Welsh devolution was meant

:48:01. > :48:04.to improve the lives of people but it's difficult to see how the

:48:05. > :48:08.devolution of a national speed limit amongst other items in the bill

:48:09. > :48:12.would bring this about. It surely needs to be accepted that this is a

:48:13. > :48:18.matter most sensibly overseen at the UK level and I would respectfully

:48:19. > :48:26.urge the government to reconsider. Thank you Mr chair. I wanted to

:48:27. > :48:30.speak specifically to amendment 124 in the name of my honourable and

:48:31. > :48:33.right honourable friend 's. I want to make it clear my support for

:48:34. > :48:38.that. I know there are a number of honourable members who wish to have

:48:39. > :48:45.their names added to the amendment. It goes in with my full support.

:48:46. > :48:50.This relates to the experience that I had on the trade union bill during

:48:51. > :48:57.its passage in this place and in committee. Where we had an extensive

:48:58. > :49:01.discussion about the relative competence of a devolved

:49:02. > :49:04.administration and the UK Government, over trade union

:49:05. > :49:08.industrial relations and employment matters which related to devolved

:49:09. > :49:13.public services. I think this is a clear distinction I want to draw.

:49:14. > :49:18.I'm not in favour of having an approach unemployment and industrial

:49:19. > :49:22.regimes across these islands. I think it is important there are

:49:23. > :49:27.common provisions. But I also believe in the Welsh government and

:49:28. > :49:31.the Welsh Assembly having full power over the relationships and the

:49:32. > :49:34.partnerships that they choose to develop the types of industrial

:49:35. > :49:39.nations practices they choose to pursue in areas where there is clear

:49:40. > :49:43.devolved competence such in the public services. Particularly how

:49:44. > :49:46.and education but also other areas. It was regularly used as an excuse

:49:47. > :49:51.by the governments during the passage of trade union Bill that

:49:52. > :49:57.they weren't interested in what the Welsh government or Scottish

:49:58. > :50:03.Government positions were on issues like check off, facility time in the

:50:04. > :50:06.public services, because these were exclusively reserved. The Welsh

:50:07. > :50:11.government and Scottish and have made clear that they did not believe

:50:12. > :50:13.that this parliament and the UK Government have the full legislative

:50:14. > :50:18.competence in those areas in particular in relation to

:50:19. > :50:21.administration of those public services. In Wales I believe the

:50:22. > :50:27.Welsh Labour government has pursued a different approach to industrial

:50:28. > :50:31.relations, which has led to an absence of some of the strikes and

:50:32. > :50:36.disputes we seen in other parts of the UK. A clear example of that in

:50:37. > :50:42.relation to the health service. It's a partnership approach that they

:50:43. > :50:46.have taken with trade unions, a very sensible one and a sensible approach

:50:47. > :50:51.to issues such as facility time and check off and other matters. I think

:50:52. > :50:55.the Welsh Labour government has properly recognised the importance

:50:56. > :51:01.of those things and the importance of partnership relationship. Not

:51:02. > :51:08.this confrontational approach taken by the government in Westminster at

:51:09. > :51:13.various points. I would not want to see that undermined. Amendment 124

:51:14. > :51:16.makes it clear that the Assembly would retain its legislative

:51:17. > :51:20.competence over terms and conditions of service that employees in the

:51:21. > :51:24.devolved public services and the industrial nations within those

:51:25. > :51:28.services. I think this is entirely reasonable, it is not about complete

:51:29. > :51:32.devolution of this area, it is important we retain those common

:51:33. > :51:37.standards. It's about allowing the Assembly to direct how it chooses to

:51:38. > :51:42.handle relationships in the Welsh NHS, schools, further education, in

:51:43. > :51:47.that more positive and constructive way that they have shown. I think it

:51:48. > :51:51.would also enable the Welsh government to take the action that

:51:52. > :51:56.it wants to very clearly, without the resort we have seen on other

:51:57. > :52:01.matters, to the courts. The government famously took the worst

:52:02. > :52:07.government to court over the issue of the agricultural workers boards

:52:08. > :52:13.and wages board and the decisions that, a wholly foolish decision. The

:52:14. > :52:16.Welsh government was trying to take the right approach and yet the UK

:52:17. > :52:20.Government wanted to waste taxpayers money attempting to sue the

:52:21. > :52:24.government. I think that's why in areas like this we have to have that

:52:25. > :52:30.clear distinction in legislation. Not attempting to hamstring

:52:31. > :52:35.administrations where they have competence. And we don't spend the

:52:36. > :52:41.public money that otherwise occurs. This I know has the support of many

:52:42. > :52:46.of the trade unions in Wales. I declare my interest as a proud

:52:47. > :52:51.member of the GMB who I know is very supportive of this amendment. I

:52:52. > :52:56.really do wish the government accept this clear distinction for

:52:57. > :53:00.responsibilities in the public services where Wales are able to

:53:01. > :53:06.take a different route. I would urge them to accept the amendment. It's

:53:07. > :53:13.good to have this opportunity to say a few words about this mammoth

:53:14. > :53:20.grouping of amendments before us. I want to speak in support of a range

:53:21. > :53:24.of amendments in schedule one removing certain reservations. I

:53:25. > :53:42.want to endorse the amendments on 83, 112, 84, 85, 86, 117, 123, 116,

:53:43. > :53:50.87, the amendments on water and sewerage 89, 90, 91, heating and

:53:51. > :53:59.cooling and 93 energy conservation, 90 Four Rd transport, speed limits,

:54:00. > :54:05.rail services, these amendments on ports, coastguards, hovercraft,

:54:06. > :54:13.children's Commissioner, teachers paid, time, equal opportunities.

:54:14. > :54:16.When I last read out the list in the Welsh grand committee when we had

:54:17. > :54:21.the ill fated draft bill before the list was somewhat longer. The

:54:22. > :54:26.government should be praised, should be congratulated to a small degree

:54:27. > :54:30.for reducing the list of reservations. I was only saved from

:54:31. > :54:36.hyperventilation by the right honourable gentleman the member for

:54:37. > :54:41.clued West. The list of reservations is shorter. I won't go too much into

:54:42. > :54:48.the specifics of many of those amendments other than to say, and

:54:49. > :54:54.the select committee said it should be reduced. I do still question the

:54:55. > :54:58.process of whether it was a right round or whatever the right round

:54:59. > :55:04.amounted to in various government departments. Who was calling the

:55:05. > :55:08.shots on those different subjects. Was it the Secretary of State, the

:55:09. > :55:10.former Secretary of State and his team, was it our friends in the

:55:11. > :55:15.Assembly government, was it officials and ministers in other

:55:16. > :55:20.government departments. Like my neighbours from Plaid Cymru I would

:55:21. > :55:24.like to see the justification for the reservation list as it is

:55:25. > :55:32.presented. I was fully aware of the Saint Davids process. We looked

:55:33. > :55:35.through silk systematically and the recommendations. Was there a

:55:36. > :55:41.consensus between us then we would proceed. If there wasn't we

:55:42. > :55:45.wouldn't. In either eventuality officials would go away and talk to

:55:46. > :55:55.other departments. My suspicion still is that certain government

:55:56. > :56:01.department, not least the Department of Justice, there is great news to

:56:02. > :56:08.hear that we will be discussing this in a way we didn't on the first day

:56:09. > :56:14.of committee. The need for distinct jurisdiction act report stage. What

:56:15. > :56:20.are these reservations? Should these powers be controlled in Wales Meaney

:56:21. > :56:23.unravelling of our constitutional arrangement? Would it mean the end

:56:24. > :56:29.of the union to devolve the power over hovercraft is, or the

:56:30. > :56:33.children's Commissioner? Would it mean the end of the union? Should

:56:34. > :56:38.there not be a principal and I'd suggest there should be, that if

:56:39. > :56:41.it's good enough to be devolved to Northern Ireland and Scotland, then

:56:42. > :56:46.it should be devolved to Wales as well. Better still, perhaps we

:56:47. > :56:51.should have started from the principal that all power was on

:56:52. > :56:55.devolved and it was the duty of the Wales Office and Westminster to

:56:56. > :56:59.argue the case for preserving them to Westminster. Whitehall would not

:57:00. > :57:07.have had a difficult time from some of us. I part company from my

:57:08. > :57:10.friends in Plaid Cymru that the defence should not be reserved. I

:57:11. > :57:15.would love to hear the argument why most of the other powers are still

:57:16. > :57:24.being reserved to this place. Many of these items were of course

:57:25. > :57:31.referred to in Silk. No mention of reserved ports and Milford Haven.

:57:32. > :57:36.Silk talked about speed limits and drink-driving. I respect the

:57:37. > :57:41.honourable members moving amendment six and one but they should have

:57:42. > :57:45.more faith in the front bench. They should have more faith in the

:57:46. > :57:52.Department for Transport and our friends. I remember sitting in the

:57:53. > :57:57.St David's Day discussions and the Conservatives, I was the liberal,

:57:58. > :58:01.the Labour Party and Plaid Cymru were all united on what the

:58:02. > :58:09.government have suggested. They must have more faith in members of their

:58:10. > :58:15.own party. Silk talked about water and sewerage. He asserted they

:58:16. > :58:21.should be devolved and the boundary should be aligned with the national

:58:22. > :58:24.boundary. A tall order indeed. But he called for further consideration

:58:25. > :58:30.of the practical considerations of alignment with particular interests,

:58:31. > :58:33.with the interests of consumers, and involving discussions with the

:58:34. > :58:38.regulated consumer rats, the water companies and both governments. When

:58:39. > :58:44.we discussed these matters it was agreed, in order to get consensus

:58:45. > :58:48.between the parties that a joint evolution board would be established

:58:49. > :58:53.to consider aligning legislative competence with the National order.

:58:54. > :58:57.That work has now concluded and I would be grateful to hear the

:58:58. > :59:03.government's interpretation of those conclusions. Isn't it true that the

:59:04. > :59:07.conclusions they've reached could be an active with minimal impact on the

:59:08. > :59:11.consumers of water and sewerage services and therefore why the

:59:12. > :59:16.reservation. I want to talk specifically about the issue of

:59:17. > :59:20.teachers pay and conditions. I was a teacher before coming to this place,

:59:21. > :59:31.I taught in England, I talked in the great county of Powys. It was a

:59:32. > :59:43.seamless move across the border from England into Wales. I was able to

:59:44. > :59:48.benefit from a move along the same teaching pay spine. I had a bit of a

:59:49. > :59:50.promotion. I could move across the same pay spine with the same

:59:51. > :00:02.conditions. That may well be to some Not to infuriate my friends there

:00:03. > :00:07.but I remain a proud member of the NASUWT and I pay my subs regularly.

:00:08. > :00:12.A case one might suggest for retaining the status quo but as silk

:00:13. > :00:22.acknowledged, it is now getting a bit dated but it was relevant then

:00:23. > :00:25.and now, should as Silk acknowledged that teachers pay and conditions are

:00:26. > :00:30.an integral part of the system and should be closely related to the

:00:31. > :00:35.devolved function. Time has moved on. England and Welsh education

:00:36. > :00:39.systems as the honourable member for Newport West said, I think we might

:00:40. > :00:43.have had the same brief from the same source but it is valid so I

:00:44. > :00:49.will repeat, priorities in Wales are different. The national pay systems

:00:50. > :00:55.and structures were established to support the different employment

:00:56. > :00:59.model. In England we take England as an entity, there is not consistency

:01:00. > :01:03.even in England with the Academy eyes nation of schools not requiring

:01:04. > :01:09.the same compliance with the School teachers pay and conditions

:01:10. > :01:13.documents. We operate different confessional registration standards.

:01:14. > :01:17.There is still teaching Council for Wales, I still send off my ?35 per

:01:18. > :01:24.year to be a member of the teaching for Wales. The teaching Council for

:01:25. > :01:27.England no longer exists. Additionally the freedom not to

:01:28. > :01:31.comply with the same professional registration standards to work in

:01:32. > :01:34.academies in England does not operate in Welsh maintained schools,

:01:35. > :01:38.and that means that when the school teachers review body reports every

:01:39. > :01:44.year, it reports on different things. It reflects a different

:01:45. > :01:50.context, one not relevant to Wales. We need to recognise this. Changing

:01:51. > :01:54.policy in England means that the school teachers review body is

:01:55. > :02:00.diminishing in relation to Wales. Welsh ministers need to have the

:02:01. > :02:03.capacity and very occasionally to have brief opportunities to talk

:02:04. > :02:08.about the delivery of policy. As a former teacher I suppose I shouldn't

:02:09. > :02:13.be aligned now with the great Kirsty Williams, my colleagues, to deliver

:02:14. > :02:18.these matters. I would just say practical problems like the

:02:19. > :02:26.difficulty to recruit headteachers in rural Wales is a really valid

:02:27. > :02:33.problem. It keeps staff in rural schools is a challenge. With the

:02:34. > :02:39.powers they can address some of these concerns should sufficient

:02:40. > :02:44.resources go to Wales. Silk was clear, teachers pay and conditions

:02:45. > :02:53.must be devolved. Pensions of course stay here. So that's why removing

:02:54. > :02:59.reservation and nine from amendment 115 is so important. Two other

:03:00. > :03:06.things, tucked away, for those who have read the bill from cover to

:03:07. > :03:11.cover, in section and four, is the reservation of time. Time will be

:03:12. > :03:15.reserved to this place. The capacity of the assembly government not to

:03:16. > :03:21.change timescales come a time zones, the calendar, the date of Easter,

:03:22. > :03:29.subject matter of the summertime act of 1972, as if there was ever a call

:03:30. > :03:36.to change those things. Tucked in M4 also refers to bank holiday. The

:03:37. > :03:40.house may recall or not recall, the attendance was not that great on

:03:41. > :03:44.Saint Davids Day this year, I did secure a ten minute rule Bill on the

:03:45. > :03:52.issue of devolving responsibility for bank holidays to the National

:03:53. > :03:56.Assembly. I've exchanged views with most members of the house on that

:03:57. > :04:02.issue, not least the under Secretary of State. We had a Westminster Hall

:04:03. > :04:05.debate on the subject sometime. And the views are different. There will

:04:06. > :04:10.be a spirited debate. But the essential principle is that the

:04:11. > :04:14.designation of Saint David stay as a bank holiday should not be the

:04:15. > :04:21.matter of us here, it should be the matter of our colleagues in the

:04:22. > :04:23.assembly and at varying times we now have five parties unfortunately in

:04:24. > :04:30.the National Assembly come in there used to be four. The four parties,

:04:31. > :04:32.Liberal Democrat, Conservative, Labour, Plaid Cymru have all

:04:33. > :04:40.endorsed the call for the assembly to have that power. I will give way.

:04:41. > :04:43.As a matter of pure interest could he say which of the current bank

:04:44. > :04:48.holidays he would propose to dispense with in order to create one

:04:49. > :04:53.on Saint Davids Day? I remember him making the point in a previous

:04:54. > :04:56.Westminster Hall debate. I'm not going to make that judgment. That is

:04:57. > :05:02.a judgment for the National Assembly. My regret is that when the

:05:03. > :05:04.Minister of State organised when he answered the debate I had, he

:05:05. > :05:10.organised into review into these matters. The results of that review

:05:11. > :05:16.were parked in the long grass, the proverbial long grass, and this is a

:05:17. > :05:20.matter for the National Assembly, not a matter for he or I sitting on

:05:21. > :05:27.the screen ventures, it is a matter for our colleagues and friends. On

:05:28. > :05:30.the last occasion this was considered, any change to bank

:05:31. > :05:35.holidays proved deeply unpopular to the tourist industry in Wales. We

:05:36. > :05:40.are now digging into the depths of the argument. I have made my

:05:41. > :05:46.position clear. Let the tourist authority make represented regions

:05:47. > :05:50.in Cardiff. Let's not sit here, Viceroy light, dictating things to

:05:51. > :05:53.the National Assembly. Let the National Assembly make that

:05:54. > :05:57.decision, have that discussion with the tourist operatives, have the

:05:58. > :06:02.Minister for tourism engaged in the discussion, not the right gentleman

:06:03. > :06:10.and I making the decision. That's what devolution meals. I want to

:06:11. > :06:16.talk about Silk. Silk said matters of crime prevention should be

:06:17. > :06:20.devolved. I have to say I don't know whether the Chatham House rules

:06:21. > :06:28.applied in the discussions we had, but I will just described the shock,

:06:29. > :06:32.genuine shock and English when we reported back to our colleagues in

:06:33. > :06:35.the national assembly. Sitting there in an office they have never been

:06:36. > :06:42.to, where big board meetings happen somewhere in this house, shock and

:06:43. > :06:46.dismay that matters of youth justice, as recommended by the Silk

:06:47. > :06:49.commission, were not followed through in the Saint David stay

:06:50. > :06:53.document. I understand the government have got to this

:06:54. > :06:58.position, I understand how, when they talk to their colleagues in the

:06:59. > :07:04.Ministry of Justice, but this still does not negate the case of all

:07:05. > :07:10.issues, youth justice, and between education and skills, health, as

:07:11. > :07:16.part of rehabilitation, that they were not followed forward in a

:07:17. > :07:19.devolutionary way. On that note I will conclude my remarks. Such was

:07:20. > :07:24.the list of reservations, we could have gone on for hours and hours and

:07:25. > :07:28.hours. I hope the minister when he responds will briefly answer some of

:07:29. > :07:33.the concerns which many of us still have about this particular list of

:07:34. > :07:43.reservations, slightly shortened though it is. There are a lot of

:07:44. > :07:48.things one could talk about, about this bill. I think we know that

:07:49. > :07:53.because at some time or another most of us have spoken about them. So I'm

:07:54. > :08:02.going to just concentrate on one particular area, and one particular

:08:03. > :08:06.amendment, namely amendment 123, which is in the name of my

:08:07. > :08:12.honourable friend the shadow Secretary of State and my party

:08:13. > :08:14.concerning the devolving of licensing of the provision of

:08:15. > :08:23.entertainment and late-night refreshments. And the sale and

:08:24. > :08:30.supply of alcohol. And indeed my honourable friend mentioned this

:08:31. > :08:34.point in his earlier remarks. He is also of course a great scholar of

:08:35. > :08:37.Welsh history, so there is one thing I'm rather surprised he didn't

:08:38. > :08:46.mention which is that the first Wales only legislation came with the

:08:47. > :08:52.Sunday closing Wales act 1881. So there is a real sense of history, I

:08:53. > :08:57.suppose, to this amendment as well. I think most of us would agree that

:08:58. > :09:04.it makes perfect sense to devolved these provisions to the assembly 's

:09:05. > :09:13.legislative competence. And I for one strongly support this amendment.

:09:14. > :09:18.I think that there needs to be a greater debate on this whole

:09:19. > :09:23.subject. Because I think we have to recognise that there are issues now

:09:24. > :09:29.connected with alcohol abuse in its very contemporary fashion that links

:09:30. > :09:37.this whole area with health services as well as with local government

:09:38. > :09:42.services. Because we are not indeed in the days of the 1881 act, nor are

:09:43. > :09:48.we in the days following that very long period where different areas of

:09:49. > :09:54.Wales voted if they were to be wet or if they were to be dry, and in

:09:55. > :09:58.many cases of the dry areas that meant people just driving a little

:09:59. > :10:04.further along the lines to get to a wet area. But what we are dealing

:10:05. > :10:12.with of course is a real problem of alcohol abuse. We are dealing with

:10:13. > :10:17.the very real problem of preloading in many of our communities. Where

:10:18. > :10:25.years ago, of course, the Welsh temperance movement, people would

:10:26. > :10:29.often decry other cultures. They'd say, fancy the French, they gave

:10:30. > :10:36.wine to their children. Well in reality of course what we see in

:10:37. > :10:40.many of those continental cultures is a sense where alcohol and food go

:10:41. > :10:46.together, have always come together, in a very natural way. That is not

:10:47. > :10:52.the case in the whole debate around preloading. And I think it's one we

:10:53. > :10:59.need to think about very, very seriously indeed. We also need to

:11:00. > :11:07.look at this in terms of our rural areas. I'm sure all of us would take

:11:08. > :11:14.very serious issues related to drink or drug driving. As those of others

:11:15. > :11:20.who relate rural and semirural areas with no through conversations with

:11:21. > :11:25.our constituents and others, there is still a sense by which some

:11:26. > :11:32.people take chances on those country roads, drive above the legal limit.

:11:33. > :11:36.I appreciate the culture has improved in many ways to the better

:11:37. > :11:40.for that and there are fewer people who do this but this is still a

:11:41. > :11:46.problem in many of our rural communities, and quite frankly if

:11:47. > :11:49.want is in a car the other side of the road to a drink-driver on those

:11:50. > :11:56.narrow single lens I think the chances of survival are fairly low.

:11:57. > :12:02.So I welcome the fact that by devolving these particular powers,

:12:03. > :12:09.they will come close in terms of how we look at health, in terms of how

:12:10. > :12:13.we look at social care and in terms of how we look at local government

:12:14. > :12:21.provision. Because there are problems today connected without the

:12:22. > :12:25.whole and drug abuse. And I don't wish to sound like someone from the

:12:26. > :12:33.1881 Bill committee, because I think many of us welcome wine, we welcome

:12:34. > :12:38.real ale, we welcome the conviviality that food and drink

:12:39. > :12:44.provide. But what we don't welcome is alcohol or drug abuse. And what

:12:45. > :12:52.we do welcome is sensible devolved provisions that will make tackling

:12:53. > :12:59.those problems easier. Thank you, it is a pleasure to welcome you to the

:13:00. > :13:03.chair. And to respond to many of the comments that have been made in

:13:04. > :13:07.relation to the amendments that have been debated thus far in this

:13:08. > :13:10.grouping. I want to underline the comments and points that have been

:13:11. > :13:14.made about the Welsh football team and congratulate those as the Prime

:13:15. > :13:18.Minister will have done before now but it is a pleasure for me to do so

:13:19. > :13:21.as the Secretary of State for where is. The first group in this

:13:22. > :13:26.afternoon goes to the heart of the new devolution settlement for Wales.

:13:27. > :13:32.This bill will put in place was very and schedule one and two in new

:13:33. > :13:37.sections 108 a and new schedules seven A and seven B respectively

:13:38. > :13:42.into the government of Wales act 2006 to provide for a preserved

:13:43. > :13:45.powers model of Welsh devolution. It devolves significant new powers and

:13:46. > :13:50.will enable the Welsh government and assembly members to legislate on the

:13:51. > :13:55.things that really matter to Wales. I will start with clause three which

:13:56. > :13:57.sets out the parameters on the legislative competence of the

:13:58. > :14:03.assembly and the reserve powers model. An act of the assembly will

:14:04. > :14:07.be outside competence and therefore not law if it falls foul of any one

:14:08. > :14:15.of the five tests set out in subsection 28 E of the new section

:14:16. > :14:20.108 a. I would first say something about how each of these tests is

:14:21. > :14:25.intended to work before I turn to the proposed amendments to the

:14:26. > :14:29.clause. The five tests are separate and independent assessments, each of

:14:30. > :14:36.which must be satisfied for the provision to be with incompetence.

:14:37. > :14:39.The first test is, if an assembly act provision cannot form part of

:14:40. > :14:42.the legal jurisdiction other than that of England and Wales. We

:14:43. > :14:48.debated many of those issues on the first day of committee. Test to is

:14:49. > :14:51.that an assembly act provision cannot apply otherwise than in

:14:52. > :14:58.relation to Wales. There is an exception to this prohibition in

:14:59. > :15:03.section 108 a three, an assembly act provision can only apply beyond

:15:04. > :15:06.Wales where it is ancillary to a provision that is within the

:15:07. > :15:09.competence and there is no greater effect beyond Wales than is

:15:10. > :15:15.necessary to give effect to that provision. It is worth noting that

:15:16. > :15:18.we have used ancillary as shorthand for the assembly putts existing

:15:19. > :15:22.enforcement and consequential powers under section 105 eight for the

:15:23. > :15:32.government of Wales act. In the context of the draft Wales

:15:33. > :15:36.Bill, there was much debate around the words the necessity test.

:15:37. > :15:42.However let me be clear that necessary does not mean that there

:15:43. > :15:46.would only ever be one option that would satisfy this test. There could

:15:47. > :15:51.be a number of different options, all of which achieve the same policy

:15:52. > :15:54.objective and all of which could satisfy the requirement not to have

:15:55. > :16:03.effects beyond Wales that are more than necessary. Test three is an

:16:04. > :16:10.Assembly act provision, must not relate to a reserved matter. The

:16:11. > :16:15.question of whether an Assembly act provision relates to a reserved

:16:16. > :16:23.matter, if it is a reserved matter, is to be interpreted by reference

:16:24. > :16:34.for the... Having regards to the circumstances set out in section 108

:16:35. > :16:38.a" six". It has become known as the purpose test. Let me explain for all

:16:39. > :16:42.of those technical issues I have tried to highlight. Although the

:16:43. > :16:46.policy documents that give rise to an Assembly Bill may be relevant in

:16:47. > :16:50.determining its purpose, the essential question is what the bill

:16:51. > :16:55.provision is seeking to which Eve and what effect the provision has in

:16:56. > :17:00.legal, practical and policy terms. In other words, it will not be

:17:01. > :17:04.enough for the Welsh government simply to assert the purpose of a

:17:05. > :17:08.provision. Why it has been enacted and what it does is what's really

:17:09. > :17:15.relevant in determining the purpose and ultimately whether an Assembly

:17:16. > :17:19.act provision is within the Assembly's register of competence.

:17:20. > :17:30.Test for is that an Assembly act provision must not breach any of the

:17:31. > :17:35.restrictions in schedule. Finally test five is the requirement that

:17:36. > :17:38.the Assembly act provision must comply within the European

:17:39. > :17:44.Convention of human rights and is within EU law. These five tests

:17:45. > :17:48.represent clear, proportionate and reasonable parameters on the

:17:49. > :17:52.Assembly's legislative competence. It was important I made such points

:17:53. > :18:00.on the record. Moving to the Assembly competence. I appreciate

:18:01. > :18:06.the honourable gentleman has listed a number of tests but would he not

:18:07. > :18:09.agree that fit each of these reservations that we should see how

:18:10. > :18:17.these reservations applied to which area. I'll cover many of those

:18:18. > :18:21.points as we propose but I've sought to underline the importance of those

:18:22. > :18:25.tests because they are so fundamental to the reserve powers

:18:26. > :18:29.model. Equally fundamental will be the reservations which I know the

:18:30. > :18:33.honourable lady raised a significant number of and as I make further

:18:34. > :18:38.progress I will cover many of those points that she made and will invite

:18:39. > :18:53.her to intervene at that time. Through amendments 188, 189 and 148,

:18:54. > :18:58.and Plaid Cymru through amendments 149-148. They are seeking to broaden

:18:59. > :19:01.the Assembly's competence by enabling the Assembly to legislate

:19:02. > :19:07.in relation to reserved matters so long as the provision is about a

:19:08. > :19:10.devolved matter. These amendments would drive a coach and horses

:19:11. > :19:16.through the key principle underpinning the new model. A clear

:19:17. > :19:21.boundary between what is devolved and what is reserved. It would give

:19:22. > :19:25.the Assembly the power to change reserved matters such as the justice

:19:26. > :19:32.system, provided only that it had some connection to devolved

:19:33. > :19:36.provision was established. They are simply not needed. We want to ensure

:19:37. > :19:44.the Assembly can enforce its legislation. We provide for this in

:19:45. > :19:50.schedule 7b by enabling the Assembly on certain matters. This insures the

:19:51. > :19:59.Assembly's devolved provision can be enforced without compromising the

:20:00. > :20:06.reserved matters. Returning to schedule 7a. These matters must be

:20:07. > :20:12.seen through the prism of the purpose test. A reservation is a six

:20:13. > :20:15.linked description of the subject area covered. It includes reserved

:20:16. > :20:19.authorities carrying out functions related to that subject and crewman

:20:20. > :20:24.or offences relating to that subject. The general reservations in

:20:25. > :20:30.part one of the new schedule reserve the fundamental tenets of the

:20:31. > :20:33.Constitution. The Crown, civil service, defence, Armed Forces,

:20:34. > :20:38.regulation of political parties and foreign affairs. As a single legal

:20:39. > :20:42.jurisdiction operates in England and Wales, were reserved matters such as

:20:43. > :20:48.courts and the non-devolved tribunal 's, judges in civil and criminal

:20:49. > :20:52.proceedings and also those are included. However we have made

:20:53. > :20:56.appropriate exceptions to these reservations to enable the Assembly

:20:57. > :21:03.to exercised devolved functions. For example the Assembly can provide

:21:04. > :21:09.appeals from devolved tribunal is to the reserved tribunal 's. Amendments

:21:10. > :21:13.six tabled by Plaid Cymru six to modify these core reservations by

:21:14. > :21:18.allowing the Assembly to consolidate the constitutional arrangement for

:21:19. > :21:22.Wales. It must be a fundamental and support that the UK constitutional

:21:23. > :21:27.arrangements including parliaments ability to devolve its own power was

:21:28. > :21:35.surely must be reserved. We have a constitutional settlement for Wales,

:21:36. > :21:39.and amendments six is not necessary. Part two lists specific

:21:40. > :21:44.reservations. We want there to be no doubt where the boundary of the

:21:45. > :21:49.Assembly's legislative competence lies. The reason the list is lengthy

:21:50. > :21:56.is because it is quite specific in its reservations and also provides

:21:57. > :21:58.exception to those reservations. Previously there were some broad

:21:59. > :22:04.headlines in the draft but the current bill is far more specific

:22:05. > :22:13.which necessitates further detail in terms of the pages and clauses

:22:14. > :22:16.included. In the interests of transparency, he has been challenged

:22:17. > :22:23.on many of these reservations this afternoon. Before we get to the

:22:24. > :22:28.remaining stages, will he commit to publishing a document by his office

:22:29. > :22:38.outlining why each reservation has been made? The honourable member is

:22:39. > :22:42.aware that I have open style where I'm happy to maintain a dialogue and

:22:43. > :22:46.work both with all opposition parties here as well as with the

:22:47. > :22:52.Welsh government in seeking to come to an accommodation. But there are

:22:53. > :22:55.some areas, for example hovercraft is have been highlighted. That

:22:56. > :23:03.reservation is in relation to technical standards and is a

:23:04. > :23:07.distinct class of transport. Whereas it might be seen as something for

:23:08. > :23:11.which on the face of it might be seen that what is the purpose of a

:23:12. > :23:16.reservation, often there are technical issues well beyond that. I

:23:17. > :23:23.would happily continue a dialogue in that respect as we continue to do

:23:24. > :23:28.with the Welsh government. Will you consider breaking the pattern we've

:23:29. > :23:33.had that we pass Wales Bill and they come back five years later and tried

:23:34. > :23:36.to undo the damage we've done with the previous bills. And except in

:23:37. > :23:46.the spirit the unanimity on this side of the House pointing out many

:23:47. > :23:50.of these reservations. Just to take one, the one on dangerous dogs. If

:23:51. > :23:55.there's any issue on which this Parliament has proved its

:23:56. > :24:01.legislative incompetence over the years it was the Dangerous Dogs Act,

:24:02. > :24:05.which is an example of how not to legislate. Wales could do better,

:24:06. > :24:09.perhaps. The honourable member is well aware that 90% of the Welsh

:24:10. > :24:16.population lives within 50 miles of the boundary of England and Wales.

:24:17. > :24:20.And clearly there are some reservations that sensible in order

:24:21. > :24:24.to walk the dog across the boundaries and could lead to some

:24:25. > :24:32.significant complications. I'm happy to maintain the dialogue in these

:24:33. > :24:36.areas. The honourable member raised that example but I'm happy to

:24:37. > :24:42.continue the dialogue and in response to the one he highlighted.

:24:43. > :24:45.You wouldn't believe it but the vast majority of reservations are not

:24:46. > :24:49.contentious and they simply reflect those areas of policy which are best

:24:50. > :24:55.legislated on a Wales basis or at a UK level and they reflect the

:24:56. > :25:00.further powers being devolved within this bill. Constructive discussions

:25:01. > :25:03.on the reservations will continue and happily with opposition members.

:25:04. > :25:07.I recognise some reservations reflect the difference in policy

:25:08. > :25:13.between us. Some others are subject to further detailed discussions

:25:14. > :25:17.which I'm happy to continue. In the context of the purpose test, the

:25:18. > :25:20.list of reservations before us today will ensure greater clarity and

:25:21. > :25:25.certainty in determining what is with incompetence of the Assembly

:25:26. > :25:36.and what is not. Turning now to the amendments in schedule one, give way

:25:37. > :25:39.quickly. The Secretary of State with a flourish and extreme confidence

:25:40. > :25:43.says the list of reservations are sensible. If so why is he so

:25:44. > :25:49.reticent about publishing his reasoning? He asserts but he doesn't

:25:50. > :25:56.explain. Mr Speaker the honourable member would know that I'm happy to

:25:57. > :26:01.continue an open dialogue. That is the style I have sought to take and

:26:02. > :26:04.build on that set by my predecessor. And I hope he will want to continue

:26:05. > :26:11.working in such an open and constructive way. I'd like to make

:26:12. > :26:16.further progress now if I can. There is a whole host of amendments in

:26:17. > :26:20.relation to justice and policing. The St David's Day process found no

:26:21. > :26:24.consensus to devolve the criminal justice system to Wales. The

:26:25. > :26:27.government gave the clear manifesto commitment that policing and

:26:28. > :26:31.criminal justice will remain reserved. In our first day of

:26:32. > :26:34.committee last week I made clear that the government's commitment to

:26:35. > :26:42.maintain the single legal jurisdiction of England and Wales.

:26:43. > :26:46.Crime, public order and policing our inextricably linked to the criminal

:26:47. > :26:53.justice system. They are linked to the criminal Justice board of Wales

:26:54. > :27:04.which includes provision extending to policing provision and the Noms

:27:05. > :27:10.functions are also in dialogue with the worst government. They seek to

:27:11. > :27:13.remove the reservations the late-night entertainment and alcohol

:27:14. > :27:17.licensing respectively. There was much debate within the grouping

:27:18. > :27:21.surrounding this. The government considers both subjects to be

:27:22. > :27:26.closely connected to policing and maintaining public order. Given that

:27:27. > :27:29.policing and criminal justice remain reserved, late-night entertainment

:27:30. > :27:37.and alcohol licensing should also be reserved along the same principle

:27:38. > :27:40.that has been established. Amendment 155 seeks to reserve the Crown

:27:41. > :27:45.Prosecution Service rather than prosecutors in the general

:27:46. > :27:51.reservation of a single legal jurisdiction. There is no intention

:27:52. > :27:55.to prevent the Assembly specifying devolved prosecutors the devolved

:27:56. > :27:58.offences in the legislation. The reservation of prosecutors would not

:27:59. > :28:01.prevent the Assembly from legislating to make for example

:28:02. > :28:07.local authorities as is already highlighted. From being the

:28:08. > :28:10.prosecuting authority for particular devolved offences. I agree however

:28:11. > :28:15.with the underlying policy intention of the amendment and will consider

:28:16. > :28:21.further ahead of this report stage whether the reservation of

:28:22. > :28:25.prosecutors should be modified. I'm happy to return at that stage.

:28:26. > :28:29.Government amendments 53 and 58 tabled in my name seek to put Wales

:28:30. > :28:37.in the same position as Scotland in respect of reservations C five. The

:28:38. > :28:41.reservation reserves prohibition and regulation of imports and exports

:28:42. > :28:44.into and out of the United Kingdom. It does however allow the Assembly

:28:45. > :28:50.to control movement of certain things such as plants, animals,

:28:51. > :28:53.feeds and fertilisers has specified purposes. The amendment seeks to put

:28:54. > :28:57.the Assembly in the same position as the Scottish Parliament by extending

:28:58. > :29:04.its competence to regulate movement of these things both within Wales

:29:05. > :29:07.and into and out of Wales. There has been a significant attention given

:29:08. > :29:10.to transport reservations, the number of which amendments had been

:29:11. > :29:15.tabled by both Plaid Cymru and the Labour Party. The transport

:29:16. > :29:21.reservations have been subject to close scrutiny in the draft bill

:29:22. > :29:24.stage and there is a basis for which the devolved railway services,

:29:25. > :29:31.coastguard services, all aspects of road transport, as the honourable

:29:32. > :29:36.member proposes. It's not what the Silk Commission recommended and my

:29:37. > :29:38.focus has been on delivering powers for a purpose. The amendments will

:29:39. > :29:44.so seek to remove the reservation of reserved trust ports for which there

:29:45. > :29:48.was further debate. The bill devolves responsibility for all

:29:49. > :29:57.ports in Wales other than that of the largest significant ports. It

:29:58. > :29:59.applies a threshold in order and I'm consequence Milford Haven is

:30:00. > :30:03.expected to be the sole reserve trust port in Wales.

:30:04. > :30:12.Milford Haven is one of the UK's largest leading energy ports. It

:30:13. > :30:14.imports around 62% of the nations liquefied natural gas passing

:30:15. > :30:19.through it. It plays a crucial national role in securing the nation

:30:20. > :30:24.'s energy supplies. It is right that there should be a reserved trust

:30:25. > :30:29.port. It is in the interests of the United Kingdom and in the interest

:30:30. > :30:36.of Wales. Amendment 161 table by my right honourable friend seeks to the

:30:37. > :30:41.other direction by reserving speed limits and road traffic signs.

:30:42. > :30:45.Devolving speed limits was a Silk recommendation on which there is

:30:46. > :30:50.consensus under the same David Stade process to implement and proceed.

:30:51. > :30:54.Traffic signs are default in Scotland following the Smith

:30:55. > :30:58.agreement and given the assembly and Welsh ministers wider competence in

:30:59. > :31:02.relation to highways and transport matters it is sensible to devolve

:31:03. > :31:09.responsibility for them and Wales. I would also underline and I will give

:31:10. > :31:12.way. He mentioned the Silk recommendations but he will recall I

:31:13. > :31:17.asked for the rationale, I wonder if he could explain it, please. I am

:31:18. > :31:24.happy to explain that given that local authorities are ready have the

:31:25. > :31:26.power to vary speed limits, it is illogical, sensible extension in

:31:27. > :31:33.order to give further powers to the Welsh government in this area. Mr

:31:34. > :31:38.Hoyle, time does not permit me to address in detail all the remaining

:31:39. > :31:41.amendments but that is in part because honourable members from

:31:42. > :31:44.Plaid Cymru seem to be seeking the devolution of just about everything

:31:45. > :31:51.and reversing the principles on which this bill is based. I'm

:31:52. > :31:57.seeking to pursue a promote that take practical approach as we seek

:31:58. > :32:05.to amend this bill further. So I reject the honourable members

:32:06. > :32:07.amendments to devolve Sunday trading, the generation,

:32:08. > :32:11.transmission, distribution and supply of electricity, of coal, of

:32:12. > :32:17.heat and cooling networks, energy conservation, working age benefits,

:32:18. > :32:21.child benefits, Guardian 's allowance, employment relations,

:32:22. > :32:24.employment support programmes, abortion, health and safety,

:32:25. > :32:30.broadcasting, equal opportunities, bank holidays and the children's

:32:31. > :32:35.Commissioner. Amendment 124 tabled by the Labour Party, tabled in the

:32:36. > :32:39.name of the honourable member for Newport West seeks to carve out from

:32:40. > :32:43.the employment reservation terms and conditions of employment in relation

:32:44. > :32:50.to Wales public authorities. The government believes strongly the

:32:51. > :32:54.underlying legislation in the workplace must be reserved in order

:32:55. > :32:59.for the labour market to work most effectively across Great Britain. I

:33:00. > :33:02.will give way. Does the Secretary of State not accept, though, that is

:33:03. > :33:05.one of the ministers told me join the passage of the trade union Bill,

:33:06. > :33:10.that the reserve powers granted under the act allow any minister in

:33:11. > :33:14.the UK Government to effectively undermine a partnership or

:33:15. > :33:19.industrial relations decision that is made by a Welsh Minister in their

:33:20. > :33:23.running of the Welsh NHS or the education service for example? The

:33:24. > :33:29.honourable member will be familiar with the background to the

:33:30. > :33:33.legislation of the 2006 act that this bill seeks to extend further on

:33:34. > :33:40.the 2006 act in relation to employment rights, because there was

:33:41. > :33:43.no intention in that act in order to devolve those purposes and we are

:33:44. > :33:47.continuing the principle that was well established by his party when

:33:48. > :33:52.they were in government. Turning to amendments in a further three areas.

:33:53. > :34:00.First in relation to Amendment 88 tabled by the Plaid Cymru.

:34:01. > :34:03.Amendments 127 and 129 and new clause ten. The government is

:34:04. > :34:06.considering the inclusion of the joint governments programme board in

:34:07. > :34:10.relation to the temporary macro recommendations on water and sewage.

:34:11. > :34:15.It was only a couple of weeks ago in which the joint committee reported,

:34:16. > :34:17.and it's only appropriate that the government give proper full

:34:18. > :34:21.consideration to that report, but I hope that we can find a consensus

:34:22. > :34:26.between the Welsh government and between the parties opposite on a

:34:27. > :34:29.way forward, but there are a whole range of technical issues that need

:34:30. > :34:36.further consideration. In response to Amendment 107, I can assure the

:34:37. > :34:41.honourable member that the assembly will have the competence to Burgess

:34:42. > :34:44.late in relation to how party electoral broadcasts at assembly and

:34:45. > :34:47.local elections in Wales are concerned. Party political

:34:48. > :34:53.broadcasts are considered to be part of the conduct of elections and

:34:54. > :34:58.there is no reason, no need to modify the broadcasting reservation

:34:59. > :35:02.to achieve this. And third on Amendment 115 relating to teachers

:35:03. > :35:05.pay, in principle I am in favour of devolving teachers pay and

:35:06. > :35:08.conditions but there is a case for further discussions between the UK

:35:09. > :35:14.Government and the Welsh government on how this can best be achieved.

:35:15. > :35:16.Finally new clause one, consequential amendments to seeks to

:35:17. > :35:20.devolve management functions of the Crown estate and commissioners in

:35:21. > :35:29.relation to Wales and to the Welsh ministers. Or a person nominated by

:35:30. > :35:32.them. Further to the provision of the Scotland act 2016. The

:35:33. > :35:35.devolution of the Crown estate in Scotland was recommended by

:35:36. > :35:40.cross-party consensus of the Smith agreement. However as honourable

:35:41. > :35:45.members opposite note the Saint Davids Day process found no similar

:35:46. > :35:49.consensus in respect Wales. So turning now to new schedule seven B,

:35:50. > :35:52.paragraph one preventing assembly act from modifying the law on

:35:53. > :35:58.reserved matters. Paragraph to provide flexibility for the assembly

:35:59. > :36:01.act provision to be able to modify the law on reserved matters where

:36:02. > :36:04.doing so is an ciliary to a provision that does not relate to a

:36:05. > :36:08.reserved matter and there is no greater effect on reserved matters

:36:09. > :36:14.than is necessary to give effect than the purpose of the provision.

:36:15. > :36:16.The restriction relating to the private law in paragraph three

:36:17. > :36:21.together with the restriction concerning the criminal law in

:36:22. > :36:23.paragraph four are intended to provide a general level of

:36:24. > :36:28.protection for the unified legal system of England and Wales whilst

:36:29. > :36:32.enabling the assembly to enforce its legislation. The protected areas of

:36:33. > :36:37.private law include core subjects like the law of contract and

:36:38. > :36:40.property, however the assembly is given powers to modify the private

:36:41. > :36:46.law with the purpose of doing so does not relate to a reserved

:36:47. > :36:50.matter. Importantly the assembly is not permitted to modify the private

:36:51. > :36:55.law for its own sake, and could not make wholesale changes to the

:36:56. > :36:59.private law for example wholesale rewriting of contract law. Any

:37:00. > :37:04.modification of the private law, must be through a range of devolved

:37:05. > :37:10.purposes. Now on the criminal law side in paragraph four, the serious

:37:11. > :37:14.offences protected from modification include treason, homicide offences,

:37:15. > :37:17.sexual offences and serious offences against the Person. It's right that

:37:18. > :37:22.the serious offences remain consistent across the UK. In

:37:23. > :37:26.addition the assembly will not be able to alter the law that governs

:37:27. > :37:32.the existing framework of criminal law since the capacity to commit

:37:33. > :37:35.crimes and sentencing. I am conscious that there have been a

:37:36. > :37:42.whole host of issues that have been raised so I will move to conclude

:37:43. > :37:46.and highlight that this has been a full and wide-ranging debate. I hope

:37:47. > :37:49.I've been able to assure the house that these reserved powers model

:37:50. > :37:55.will provide a clear, robust and lasting devolution settlement for

:37:56. > :37:59.Wales. I therefore beg to move clauses three and 28 to 35 and

:38:00. > :38:02.schedules one and two standard part of the bill. I also beg to move the

:38:03. > :38:06.government amendments 53 to 58 standard part of the bill and urge

:38:07. > :38:17.honourable members opposite to withdraw their amendments. Withdraw

:38:18. > :38:31.Amendment 118 and move Amendment 123. 118 be withdrawn. Question is

:38:32. > :38:44.clause three stand part of the bill, as many of that opinion say aye. The

:38:45. > :38:49.ayes have it. The question is the Amendment 83 be made, as many of

:38:50. > :38:51.that opinion say aye. To the contrary know. Division. Clear the

:38:52. > :39:50.lobby. The question is Amendment 83 be

:39:51. > :46:55.made, as many of that opinion say aye. The contrary no.

:46:56. > :50:40.Order, order. The ayes to the right 47. The noes to the left 270. The

:50:41. > :50:46.ayes to the right 47. The noes to the left 270. The noes have it,

:50:47. > :50:59.unlock. We now come to amendment 120 three. -- 123. As many as are of the

:51:00. > :52:22.opinion, say aye. To the contrary, no. Clear the lobbies.

:52:23. > :52:45.Amendment 123 be made... Tell us for the ayes. Jeff Smith and Vicky

:52:46. > :52:52.foxtrot... George Holland B and Julian Smith. The question is that

:52:53. > :52:53.the votes... As many as are of the opinion, say aye. To the contrary,

:52:54. > :02:01.no. Order, order. The ayes to the right,

:02:02. > :02:35.210. The noes to the left 270. The ayes to the right 200 -- 210,

:02:36. > :02:45.the noes to the left have it. Amendments 58 formally. The question

:02:46. > :02:51.is that amendments 53 to 58, as many in the opinion say aye. The ayes

:02:52. > :02:57.have it. Scheduled one amendment being the first scheduled to the

:02:58. > :03:04.bill, as many in favour say aye. To the contrary no. The ayes have it.

:03:05. > :03:14.Scheduled to be the second Amendment to the Bill, as many say aye. The

:03:15. > :03:20.ayes have it. We now come to group two and clause 22 which would be

:03:21. > :03:24.convenient to consider the amendments of clauses listed on the

:03:25. > :03:35.selection paper. Clause 22 stand part of the bill. The Minister.

:03:36. > :03:40.Thank you, it is a pleasure to serve under your chairmanship. I beg to

:03:41. > :03:46.move clauses 22 to 27 stand part of the bill. Close 22 alongside

:03:47. > :03:50.detailed technical provisions devolves all petroleum licensing in

:03:51. > :03:54.Wales to the Welsh ministers fulfilling the Saint Davids Day 's

:03:55. > :03:59.commitments. Clause 23 is necessary to facilitate the smooth transfer of

:04:00. > :04:03.existing onshore licenses. Clause 24 transfers to Welsh ministers

:04:04. > :04:10.regulatory powers in the infrastructure act 2015 deep level

:04:11. > :04:14.below 300 metres for the purpose of exploiting onshore petroleum. The

:04:15. > :04:17.Saint Davids day agreement stated responsibility for speed limit in

:04:18. > :04:21.Wales should be devolved. It also committed the government to consider

:04:22. > :04:25.the Smith agreement to determine which recommendations for Scotland

:04:26. > :04:27.should also apply to Wales. As a result of this work powers over

:04:28. > :04:32.traffic signs including pedestrian crossings will also be devolved.

:04:33. > :04:36.Clause 25 and section B one of schedule one devolve these powers

:04:37. > :04:42.when reserving only powers relating to the exception of vehicles from

:04:43. > :04:46.speed limit and certain traffic signs, for example emergency

:04:47. > :04:50.vehicles attending incidents. Together the courses under schedule

:04:51. > :04:51.have the effect of devolving to the assembly and Welsh ministers

:04:52. > :04:59.legislative and executive competence in respect of substantially all of

:05:00. > :05:05.the provisions which concerned speed limits and traffic signs. This means

:05:06. > :05:08.the assembly will be able to legislate in respect of

:05:09. > :05:13.substantially all aspects of speed limit and traffic signs on all roads

:05:14. > :05:19.in Wales. Close 26 fulfils the Saint Davids Day commitment and implement

:05:20. > :05:24.a recommendation to devolve the registration of bus services or the

:05:25. > :05:28.traffic Commissioner. Devolution of bus registration is achieved by the

:05:29. > :05:33.matter not being listed as a reserved matter within schedule

:05:34. > :05:36.seven A. Clause 26 also gives effect to the devolution of the relevant

:05:37. > :05:41.traffic functions to Welsh ministers. Clause 27 also fulfils

:05:42. > :05:45.the Saint Davids Day commitment and the silk commission recommendation

:05:46. > :05:50.by devolving the regulation of taxi and private hire service vehicles in

:05:51. > :05:53.Wales to Welsh ministers. This condiments the devolution of

:05:54. > :05:57.legislative competence to the assembly for taxes and private hire

:05:58. > :06:04.vehicle licensing in schedule seven A. Taxi and PHP services are

:06:05. > :06:07.currently licensed by local authorities under legislation that

:06:08. > :06:12.covers England and Wales outside of London. Local licensing set their

:06:13. > :06:22.own policies and standards. I therefore beg to move that these

:06:23. > :06:28.clauses stand part of the bill. There is considerable and weighty

:06:29. > :06:32.clauses here that will bring significant benefits to the people

:06:33. > :06:36.of Wales and we are grateful for the improvements that have taken place

:06:37. > :06:42.in the bill as the result of the government accepting the criticisms

:06:43. > :06:46.that were made of the draft Bill. So there is progress and real progress

:06:47. > :06:53.being made. The areas I would like to raise our those involving energy

:06:54. > :06:58.because there is a great opportunity for Wales to become a powerhouse for

:06:59. > :07:06.energy for the whole of the United Kingdom. For so long we have neglect

:07:07. > :07:13.to the vast energy type that sweeps around the Welsh coast at different

:07:14. > :07:23.times of the day providing pulses of energy that could be coupled with

:07:24. > :07:25.demand responsive schemes in order to give completely demand

:07:26. > :07:30.responsibility city. To do it not only cleanly but with renewable

:07:31. > :07:36.powers in an entirely predictable way. The tide will always come in.

:07:37. > :07:46.We have also made huge strides in Wales on hydro schemes in various

:07:47. > :07:51.places. So it is there, the possibility of using the topography

:07:52. > :07:54.of Wales to produce energy has been long neglected but we look at the

:07:55. > :08:00.problems of the Port Talbot steelworks and realise that washing

:08:01. > :08:07.along the shore of the steelworks is the highest rise and fall of tide in

:08:08. > :08:11.the world, and they are in trouble because their energy is so expensive

:08:12. > :08:20.when a source of energy is available at their doorstep, free, British,

:08:21. > :08:27.eternal and absolutely predictable. Clauses 132, and 131 referred to

:08:28. > :08:32.renewable energy schemes. The Welsh government amendments would create a

:08:33. > :08:37.duty on the Secretary of State to consult with ministers before

:08:38. > :08:43.establishing law amending renewable energy incentive scheme in Wales. As

:08:44. > :08:46.drafted the clause excludes the requirement for the Secretary of

:08:47. > :08:52.State to consult in relation to the creation of a levy to fund and

:08:53. > :08:59.incentives scheme. The obligation merely to consult is insufficient in

:09:00. > :09:04.respect of this important matter. The energy act 2013 provides that