14/09/2016

:00:07. > :00:23.Order! I had hoped to be able to announce today the timetable for the

:00:24. > :00:29.election of vacant chairs of select committees. It is my understanding,

:00:30. > :00:34.I may of course be wrong, that discussions on these matters in the

:00:35. > :00:40.usual channels have concluded, but the government has still to table

:00:41. > :00:46.the various motions required. I very much hope that they will be tabled

:00:47. > :00:55.very soon. It may be helpful to members to know that, if the House

:00:56. > :01:00.agrees to those motions, it is my fervent hope and expectation that

:01:01. > :01:13.the elections for chairs may take place on Wednesday 19th of October.

:01:14. > :01:17.Order. We will come to the honourable gentleman. I know that it

:01:18. > :01:25.may be on that matter but there is something else I want to see first.

:01:26. > :01:30.It is always good to keep the honourable gentleman in reserve, it

:01:31. > :01:37.builds up a sense of eager anticipation in the House. Order.

:01:38. > :01:46.Michael Carpenter, speakers Council, retires from how service at the end

:01:47. > :01:50.of September. You were seconded from the Treasury solicitors department

:01:51. > :01:54.in October 2000 as counsel for European legislation and

:01:55. > :02:01.subsequently became an employee of the House. Michael became Speaker's

:02:02. > :02:08.Council in October 2008. He has served this House and, if I may say

:02:09. > :02:13.so, colleagues, he has served me magnificently. I shall always be

:02:14. > :02:21.grateful to him, and the House should be thankful for his sense of

:02:22. > :02:29.duty, for his immense ability and for his stoicism and fortitude under

:02:30. > :02:34.pressure. I am sure that the House would wish to send its best wishes

:02:35. > :02:43.to Michael and his family, following his retirement. Hear, hear. I am

:02:44. > :02:57.pleased to announce that, following fair and open competition, Sarah

:02:58. > :03:01.Solini will take on the role of Speaker's counsel in October. She's

:03:02. > :03:04.currently solicited the Deputy Church Commissioners, role that she

:03:05. > :03:08.has held for five years. Before that she was a member of the office of

:03:09. > :03:12.the Parliamentary Counsel for eight years, and she comes to us with a

:03:13. > :03:17.detailed knowledge of the legislative process. I am sure that

:03:18. > :03:29.the House will want to wish Sarah well in her new and important role.

:03:30. > :03:32.Yes, OK, I will take those points of order now before we come to the

:03:33. > :03:36.urgent questions. I saw the honourable member for Wellingborough

:03:37. > :03:44.first under am certain that he will burst if he doesn't have is

:03:45. > :03:52.opportunity ere long. Mr Peter bone. Thank you, Mr Speaker. On the issue

:03:53. > :03:56.he raised, obviously the two whips' departments will be working hard to

:03:57. > :03:58.ensure that this House has the opportunity to set up Select

:03:59. > :04:04.Committees to scrutinise the government. As they are having some

:04:05. > :04:08.sort of trouble, is there any possibility we could do something in

:04:09. > :04:12.this House to ensure that it happens before we go into recess, and so it

:04:13. > :04:15.would be really useful if we could have the election on the day that

:04:16. > :04:21.you say, because that's my birth date! It seems to me a very good

:04:22. > :04:29.reason to make expeditious progress on this matter in any case. I'm sure

:04:30. > :04:32.that there was absolutely no hint of underlying sarcasm in his

:04:33. > :04:36.observation when he expressed the confident expectation that the whips

:04:37. > :04:39.on both sides would want to make progress in the establishment of the

:04:40. > :04:45.new committee and in the election of the vacant chairs or all of the

:04:46. > :04:50.committees, because of course, they will want the government to be

:04:51. > :04:53.subject to proper and thorough scrutiny. There is very good reason

:04:54. > :04:58.to proceed expeditiously anyway, but the fact that October the 19th is

:04:59. > :05:04.also the honourable gentleman's birthday, provides an added

:05:05. > :05:10.incentive and the short answer is, I am doing what I can, not very

:05:11. > :05:14.subtly, to indicate that the usual channels really ought to progress

:05:15. > :05:19.this matter, sooner rather than later, and so for as I am concerned,

:05:20. > :05:25.that means by tomorrow. -- so far as I am concerned. My best wishes to

:05:26. > :05:29.Michael and Sarah, as well, as they take up their new roles. With the

:05:30. > :05:33.changes to the Select Committees we see a change from the old business

:05:34. > :05:37.committee to business energy and industrial strategy committee and

:05:38. > :05:40.old business committee was one of the constituent committees on arms

:05:41. > :05:44.export controls. I wonder whether it is your view that the new committee

:05:45. > :05:48.will take over the role of the old business committee as well of the

:05:49. > :05:52.constituent committees and that he would not be correct as has been

:05:53. > :05:56.suggested in some quarters that then new international trade committee

:05:57. > :06:02.should take over sole responsibility for scrutinising arms export

:06:03. > :06:04.matters. The honourable gentleman is an ingenious fellow and has

:06:05. > :06:09.regularly demonstrated that since his election to the House. I don't

:06:10. > :06:14.blame the honourable member for seeking to shoehorn in his own

:06:15. > :06:18.current preoccupation when we are discussing the timetable for the

:06:19. > :06:22.election of chairs all they can committees. However, the proper

:06:23. > :06:26.answer for me to give the honourable gentleman is that it is not a matter

:06:27. > :06:32.for the Chair. It will be a matter for the committee itself to decide.

:06:33. > :06:41.Now, if the honourable gentleman were afflicted by a sudden bout of

:06:42. > :06:46.self-doubt or reticence, causing him to be reluctant or unable to express

:06:47. > :06:57.his view on this matter, I would be concerned. But he won't be, and

:06:58. > :07:01.therefore I have got. -- I am not. I noticed the Leader of the House is

:07:02. > :07:06.in his place. Would it be in order for the benefit of a House if the

:07:07. > :07:09.leader rise at the dispatch box and put the House out of its misery in

:07:10. > :07:15.relation to the government's plans for the dates of the selection of

:07:16. > :07:18.committee chairs. The Leader of the House isn't under any such

:07:19. > :07:22.obligation. It has to be said, normally, and I speak with some

:07:23. > :07:26.authority on this matter, as I have known the Leader of the House for 30

:07:27. > :07:30.years, and we have been in constituency terms, next door

:07:31. > :07:36.neighbours for the best part of 20, the right honourable gentleman is

:07:37. > :07:39.the most accommodating of colleagues, and I've got a feeling

:07:40. > :07:48.that he's about to prove the point. The Leader of the House of Lords Mr

:07:49. > :07:52.Speaker, if it may help the House, as you might said, Mr Speaker,

:07:53. > :07:57.agreement was reached among the usual channels earlier this week as

:07:58. > :08:02.to the reconstitution of Select Committees following the changes to

:08:03. > :08:08.government departments. It was clearly right that we sought to get

:08:09. > :08:13.full cross-party endorsement for these changes. That has now been

:08:14. > :08:17.attained. I have therefore given instructions immediately for the

:08:18. > :08:23.necessary resolutions and changes to standing orders to be drafted and we

:08:24. > :08:28.shall certainly table those as rapidly as we can get those to the

:08:29. > :08:33.House authorities. I think that's very encouraging. I don't want to

:08:34. > :08:37.embarrass The right honourable gentleman, but he's in some danger,

:08:38. > :08:45.if not careful, being held aloft by members in all parts of the House.

:08:46. > :08:48.We will leave it there for now. And I thank the Leader of the House of

:08:49. > :08:56.Lords EZ, which I think is encouraging. Urgent question,

:08:57. > :09:00.Rebecca Long Bailey. I asked the Chancellor of the Exchequer if

:09:01. > :09:06.you'll make a statement on the abilities and activities in relation

:09:07. > :09:15.to tax credit investigations made on behalf of HMRC into Concentrix. I

:09:16. > :09:18.want to be very clear. The government recognises the importance

:09:19. > :09:23.of tax credits to individuals and families. We all recognise that it

:09:24. > :09:28.is important that this support reaches the people who really need

:09:29. > :09:31.it. That is why HMRC work hard to check they are making the trek

:09:32. > :09:38.payments and tackle any fraudulent claims. We must acknowledge that

:09:39. > :09:42.fraud exists in the system and should invest to ensure that

:09:43. > :09:49.taxpayers money is spent directly. As part of this, Concentrix Ltd was

:09:50. > :09:52.engaged to help check people's eligibility. ?300 million worth of

:09:53. > :09:57.incorrect payments have been identified. I want to reassure the

:09:58. > :10:01.House on two key points. First, Concentrix were only paid for making

:10:02. > :10:06.the right decisions. They would not receive payment for taking someone's

:10:07. > :10:11.money away wrongly. And secondly, that Concentrix were not allowed to

:10:12. > :10:14.engage in fishing expeditions or pick on vulnerable claimants at

:10:15. > :10:18.random. But, where there was evidence to suggest a claim might

:10:19. > :10:23.not be correct, Concentrix would like to claimants to confirm their

:10:24. > :10:27.edge eligibility. I realise, and I know this as a constituency member

:10:28. > :10:30.myself, that it can be stressful for someone to receive such a letter,

:10:31. > :10:34.that it is right that investigate the full picture with claimants

:10:35. > :10:39.themselves to make the right payments. That is why both

:10:40. > :10:43.Concentrix and HMRC, where does the same work, always sends a letter

:10:44. > :10:46.giving claimants 30 days to provide information before taking any

:10:47. > :10:49.further action and it is important that people do indeed respond and

:10:50. > :10:53.get in touch if they are struggling to respond to any other questions.

:10:54. > :10:56.Despite the best efforts of the staff manning the phones, with a

:10:57. > :10:59.high volume of calls in recent weeks, Concentrix have not been

:11:00. > :11:02.providing the high levels of customer service that the public

:11:03. > :11:07.expect, and which are required in contract. HMRC have given notice

:11:08. > :11:14.that this contract will not be renewed beyond its end date in May,

:11:15. > :11:17.2017. HMRC is no longer passing news cases to Concentrix but working with

:11:18. > :11:20.them as a matter of urgency to improve the service they provide to

:11:21. > :11:26.claimants and to resolve outstanding cases. I can confirm to the House

:11:27. > :11:29.that 150 HMRC staff have been redeployed with immediate effect to

:11:30. > :11:33.help them resolve any issues people are having with their claims, as

:11:34. > :11:36.quickly as possible, and, Mr Speaker, I realise that colleagues

:11:37. > :11:40.on all sides of the House are concerned to get difficult cases

:11:41. > :11:44.resolved and assist vulnerable constituents appropriately. In

:11:45. > :11:49.addition to the additional resources I have referred to, I have arranged

:11:50. > :11:53.a members dropping in at palmistry between 9:30am and 11am tomorrow at

:11:54. > :12:02.which we can offer guidance to colleagues, should that be helpful.

:12:03. > :12:06.-- at one Parliament St. I thank the Minister for her reply. Many members

:12:07. > :12:10.across the House have been contacted by distressed and anxious

:12:11. > :12:16.constituents, often hard-working individuals who have a tax credits

:12:17. > :12:22.cut unfairly, pushing them, in many cases, into extreme hardship. Whilst

:12:23. > :12:25.we on this side certainly welcome that HMRC is finally taking action

:12:26. > :12:29.in announcing that the Concentrix contract will not be renewed, it is

:12:30. > :12:33.most regrettable that the government has only done this when events have

:12:34. > :12:37.been dramatically exposed by the media and indeed My Honourable

:12:38. > :12:44.Friend the member for Sheffield Healy and Birkenhead. Whilst

:12:45. > :12:47.Concentrix will be carrying out the services far not another eight

:12:48. > :12:52.months, there's a risk that without radical amendment to the contract

:12:53. > :12:57.itself, service will continue. Most concerning is that the payment model

:12:58. > :13:01.creates a conflict of interest as noted by the Social Security

:13:02. > :13:05.advisory committee. Can the Minister confirm what arrangement she will

:13:06. > :13:10.make to urgently revise the contract to preserve justice for the

:13:11. > :13:14.claimants? Furthermore, as you stated, I understand HMRC will

:13:15. > :13:16.redeploy 150 staff so that they claimants can get through to

:13:17. > :13:23.advisers and resolve their claims. Can the Minister say that the

:13:24. > :13:27.government will monitor this going forward, and all the government

:13:28. > :13:31.commit to an official investigation into Concentrix's conduct since

:13:32. > :13:36.being awarded a contract in 2014, so that we can determine how this

:13:37. > :13:41.situation was allowed to arise, and one final point, Mr Speaker. As the

:13:42. > :13:52.minister given any consideration to the real prospect of bringing this

:13:53. > :13:57.service back in-house? Mr Speaker, it is worth making the comment, I

:13:58. > :14:00.think that this is a very complicated system that this

:14:01. > :14:06.government, the previous government, indeed inherited, and it is the case

:14:07. > :14:09.that long-term, the right answer is to replace tax credits, as is our

:14:10. > :14:14.intention, because it is an unnecessarily complex system that we

:14:15. > :14:18.will bequeath. But we must make it work whilst it is in operation and

:14:19. > :14:23.that is now the focus of our activities. With regard to the

:14:24. > :14:26.contract and a decision that HMRC have taken, I want to reassure the

:14:27. > :14:30.House that monitoring has been taking place on a regular basis

:14:31. > :14:36.throughout the contract, and HMRC have worked closely with Concentrix,

:14:37. > :14:39.but it is the case that it is documented in recent weeks that

:14:40. > :14:43.performance has not been right, and clearly, that has been something

:14:44. > :14:47.that we have noted and which we are now taking action on. With regard to

:14:48. > :14:55.the contract going forward, as I think I mentioned in my statement,

:14:56. > :14:58.Concentrix will be focusing on resolving expanding claims are not

:14:59. > :15:03.opening new ones. In other words the ones that they are already open,

:15:04. > :15:07.will be looking to deal with in an orderly and appropriate manner, and

:15:08. > :15:12.HMRC is putting in additional resources, focusing on those

:15:13. > :15:16.difficult cases where we have heard some high-profile examples in recent

:15:17. > :15:20.days, and to make sure that we get those resolved in the quickest

:15:21. > :15:25.possible time, to ensure that vulnerable constituents of all of us

:15:26. > :15:29.are helped and supported. So that is the key focus. I don't think there

:15:30. > :15:35.is any need to go into inquiries etc. We have a contract. It is

:15:36. > :15:39.monitored regularly, it is not going to be renewed when it ends in May

:15:40. > :15:43.next year, and the focus, I think, for all of us, and for me and for

:15:44. > :15:48.HMRC in the coming days and weeks, is in making sure that we get

:15:49. > :15:51.through outstanding cases and resolve them, particularly those

:15:52. > :15:53.involving the most vulnerable, and we make sure that people have the

:15:54. > :16:01.money to which they are correctly entitled.

:16:02. > :16:08.I have got cases of women who have had their tax credits stop because

:16:09. > :16:14.they have been told they are living with a man they have never heard of,

:16:15. > :16:20.they have had their benefits withdrawn. I am not sure that I need

:16:21. > :16:23.advice tomorrow morning in one Parliament St when the House is

:16:24. > :16:34.sitting. What we need to know is how quickly these cases can be reviewed.

:16:35. > :16:38.I quite understand. The drop-in is bearish as a facility as members

:16:39. > :16:45.should want to use it, but there is an alternative to the HMRC lines

:16:46. > :16:51.already in place. We would encourage anyone to call the HMRC number. We

:16:52. > :16:55.are putting significant resource with immediate effect to make sure

:16:56. > :17:02.we can resolve that. I am reassured and I will be talking to HMRC

:17:03. > :17:07.consistently on this fact, as soon as we can resolve a case and the

:17:08. > :17:16.facts of a case, weakening get money into people's accounts in a short

:17:17. > :17:18.number of days. -- can get. I am delighted that the macro one

:17:19. > :17:26.contract is not to be renewed, that will as some comfort by those

:17:27. > :17:31.affected by their activity. -- Concentrix. The minister tells us

:17:32. > :17:37.some 300 million has been saved. How much of the so-called savings were

:17:38. > :17:44.as a result of false accusations by Concentrix against tax credit

:17:45. > :17:50.recipients? If there were somewhere between 120 many thousands of people

:17:51. > :17:56.why was this contract not cancelled sooner? The cost of the contract is

:17:57. > :18:02.also meant to be ?75 million, how much will the government claw Pack

:18:03. > :18:07.to compensate those affected? The ministers tell us that civil

:18:08. > :18:10.servants have been drafted in to clean up the mess. How much will

:18:11. > :18:16.that cost the tax payer in additional pay and will the

:18:17. > :18:23.government be seeking payments from Concentrix to fund that remedial

:18:24. > :18:27.action? Will there are one of two of the points that the honourable

:18:28. > :18:32.gentleman raises their I am not able to respond to. My priority and that

:18:33. > :18:37.of HMRC officials at the moment is to make sure we resolve the

:18:38. > :18:42.outstanding cases, especially difficult cases for vulnerable

:18:43. > :18:45.constituents. We are not renewing the contract but we do intend to

:18:46. > :18:53.continue to bear down on fraud, there is a lot of fraud in the

:18:54. > :18:59.system. But we had a great deal of success in recent years and reducing

:19:00. > :19:02.that. It has have from 100 million to 400 million in terms of the

:19:03. > :19:08.amount of fraud in the system and we need to bear down on that because

:19:09. > :19:11.obviously money that is fraudulently obtained is not available to

:19:12. > :19:16.taxpayers and it remains a vital matter that we do address that. But

:19:17. > :19:25.for the moment, my primary consideration is to resolve the most

:19:26. > :19:30.difficult cases. I am a supporter of those trying to get on in life. And

:19:31. > :19:36.depend on tax credit. One of the concerns I have is that over the

:19:37. > :19:40.next eight months, they will have that fear of being falsely accused

:19:41. > :19:47.and prosecuted almost as they go forward. What reassurance can the

:19:48. > :19:52.then Minister give that those people will be looked after and will HMRC

:19:53. > :19:56.carry on with the contract going forward or will the look for a new

:19:57. > :20:04.tender? I have laid down the arrangements are in place. HMRC will

:20:05. > :20:10.be supporting Concentrix around the outstanding cases. In particular

:20:11. > :20:14.looking at complex cases, supporting back-office functions while

:20:15. > :20:19.Concentrix staff look at resolving already open cases. It is important

:20:20. > :20:23.to put a bit of perspective on this. There are a lot of claims that have

:20:24. > :20:27.been correctly identified as being erroneous or fraudulently which

:20:28. > :20:31.Concentrix have assisted the government, and indeed the taxpayer

:20:32. > :20:36.in identifying. And I think it is important to keep this in

:20:37. > :20:41.perspective. But HMRC have made it clear they will not continue the

:20:42. > :20:46.contract beyond the spring. Can I thank the Minister and HMRC reacting

:20:47. > :20:51.so quickly two issues I have raised in this House. Several questions

:20:52. > :20:57.remain. What estimation has been made of the backlog that has to be

:20:58. > :21:03.dealt with by Concentrix and HMRC? How should people contact

:21:04. > :21:06.Concentrix? Should the contact them through the current helpline or

:21:07. > :21:14.contact-macro to directly? Why were these not acted on is HMRC were

:21:15. > :21:21.monitoring the contract so closely? Will they be bringing the contact

:21:22. > :21:30.back in House next year? Will he -- she commit to a review to the

:21:31. > :21:39.systems that are inappropriate in our organisations? She has been very

:21:40. > :21:46.active in these issues. With regard to performance, it is important to

:21:47. > :21:53.note, and the figures of performance does support this, that actually it

:21:54. > :21:59.is only in recent weeks particular the performance has been not

:22:00. > :22:01.acceptable. It has, it is not a case that has been something that has

:22:02. > :22:10.been acute problem for a considerable length of time, but it

:22:11. > :22:12.is the proper -- fact that performance has not been acceptable

:22:13. > :22:14.in recent weeks. With regard to who people should contact. They should

:22:15. > :22:19.contact the number on the letters that they have received. I am aware

:22:20. > :22:23.of the problems of getting through on the phones in recent weeks. And

:22:24. > :22:28.indeed I have tested that for myself, so what we are doing is

:22:29. > :22:35.putting that additional to allow Concentrix to concentrate on

:22:36. > :22:45.focusing on existing cases so staff can resolve some of the back office

:22:46. > :22:49.problems. In terms of mandatory considerations, some or are coming

:22:50. > :22:52.in, but we think there are around 2500 in the system at the moment

:22:53. > :22:58.left to be dealt with. We do expect more to come in because it is that

:22:59. > :23:03.time of year after people who have not supplied additional information

:23:04. > :23:09.as requested, have seen their tax credits potentially stopped. We can

:23:10. > :23:13.with the additional resources, resolve that very quickly. And that

:23:14. > :23:17.is my focus. Can my honourable friend clarify for the House, the

:23:18. > :23:23.position now is that Concentrix will not deal with any new claims cases.

:23:24. > :23:29.Who from HMRC or whoever is going to deal with claims of errors, fraud

:23:30. > :23:32.and other systems, so we send a strong signal to people that this is

:23:33. > :23:41.not going to be acceptable but we want to see the genuine claimants

:23:42. > :23:44.compensated for the money they need? I can reassure my honourable friend

:23:45. > :23:51.that it has been the case that both Concentrix and HMRC were pursuing

:23:52. > :23:56.claims of error and fraud. HMRC will continue to pursue cases of error

:23:57. > :24:02.and fraud. The government has put in additional resource in recent years

:24:03. > :24:10.into supporting the general tax avoidance and evasion compliance

:24:11. > :24:13.aspects of HMRC's work. May I thank the Minister for her statement and

:24:14. > :24:17.drop to the House how different this responses from previous

:24:18. > :24:23.governments's response. I do not believe we have would have had to

:24:24. > :24:25.be's statement had we not had a leadership election, so I thank her

:24:26. > :24:30.for that. Might she thank on her thanks to the colleague for the

:24:31. > :24:39.immediate action she took on the report that I submitted on Hermes

:24:40. > :24:42.where the revenue had been asked to investigate their unlawful use of

:24:43. > :24:49.self-employment. The two questions that I would like to ask. Worries

:24:50. > :24:53.about this contract is that they appear to some people to be cutting

:24:54. > :25:00.benefit and asking questions afterwards. And there is no

:25:01. > :25:10.mechanism by which MPs have got a hotline to try and sort out those

:25:11. > :25:17.issues out. Well very much work King -- working to bring the work in

:25:18. > :25:25.House, might she acknowledge that this is a contract in place where a

:25:26. > :25:36.private company is able to make a decision on benefit money for

:25:37. > :25:48.people? It could be deemed as quite cheeky tasks many questions. Mr

:25:49. > :25:53.Speaker, I thank the right macro -- to honourable member around fact

:25:54. > :25:56.that it is priority to resolve issues of this nature. I do think it

:25:57. > :26:02.is again be it a rating that through this contract we have secured to

:26:03. > :26:10.?280 million of identified savings in terms of error and fraud and that

:26:11. > :26:15.it continues to be considerable fraud and regard to where people are

:26:16. > :26:22.living singularly in a household. I do not think it is important to

:26:23. > :26:29.recognise this contract has brought benefits to those area. This

:26:30. > :26:33.contract does have its place but it work appropriately and it must do

:26:34. > :26:38.what it is set out to do and it should work for taxpayers and should

:26:39. > :26:41.work for the vulnerable. I will reflect on as wide a point if I may.

:26:42. > :26:48.I want to give him reassurance on that Gerald Bull point. All members

:26:49. > :26:53.of the House will have received a deluge of harrowing cases of people

:26:54. > :26:57.who have had cause to have interaction with Concentrix. The

:26:58. > :27:01.first of all they were even unsure this company existed, they thought

:27:02. > :27:07.it was a scam letter, of all we see far too often. There has been for

:27:08. > :27:12.delay in post-opening and try to get through on the telephone has been

:27:13. > :27:19.next to impossible. This has been a service level that has an acceptable

:27:20. > :27:22.in the public sector. Can she assured us that her statement shows

:27:23. > :27:26.this government is committed to helping the vulnerable immediately

:27:27. > :27:29.and accurately? I thank my honourable friend for those

:27:30. > :27:37.comments, I hope it does show that. These contracts, right across

:27:38. > :27:41.government we have important contracts with people to provide a

:27:42. > :27:48.server, but they need to be provided to an acceptable standard. --

:27:49. > :27:52.service. HMRC have taken into account operational performance

:27:53. > :27:58.issues. I think the focus for all of us, for ministers, for HMRC and

:27:59. > :28:01.individual members working in their constituency capacities as to make

:28:02. > :28:04.sure our most vulnerable constituents are supported as soon

:28:05. > :28:07.as possible to make sure that money they are entitled to hits their bank

:28:08. > :28:14.accounts and they do not have the stress of wondering where that money

:28:15. > :28:18.is good to come from. All of us as constituency members of Parliament

:28:19. > :28:23.can relay stories of how the service contract has worked and has been

:28:24. > :28:30.deplorable. But on the issue of the jobs that will be lost, some of them

:28:31. > :28:32.in Belfast, can she tell us what contact she has had with the

:28:33. > :28:36.Northern Ireland executive or the HMRC has had with the relevant

:28:37. > :28:41.devolved administrations regions are about the effect on jobs and what

:28:42. > :28:47.will be done to give support to those who will lose jobs? I think it

:28:48. > :28:52.is important to note that the decision has been taken by HMRC not

:28:53. > :28:56.to renew the contract, so to that extent the decision for a private

:28:57. > :29:00.company like Concentrix as to what they do beyond that point is a

:29:01. > :29:05.matter for them. But I am sure that in the normal way, if the right

:29:06. > :29:15.honourable gentleman has concerns that nature, we would be happy to

:29:16. > :29:18.top term. This is not a decision to end the contract here and no, it is

:29:19. > :29:25.a decision not to renew it in the spring. What other steps being taken

:29:26. > :29:30.by the government to protect the vulnerable in this situation. Can my

:29:31. > :29:33.honourable friend assure them a House that the lessons learned in

:29:34. > :29:41.this case will not be applied to the hat contract in May, but across more

:29:42. > :29:45.contracts across government widely? I hope I can give that reassurance

:29:46. > :29:49.that not just in the future but obviously in the past and to date,

:29:50. > :29:54.it has always been the case that when the government contracts with

:29:55. > :29:56.the supplier to provide a service, that it should be provided to the

:29:57. > :30:01.right standard, that contract will be monitored and we make sure that

:30:02. > :30:09.service levels are except 22 members and to their constituents. Despite

:30:10. > :30:15.what the Minister has said earlier, I have constituents who have had

:30:16. > :30:27.their tax credits cut off without receiving any prior notification and

:30:28. > :30:30.has spent up to 70 minutes on the phone tried to get through. Which is

:30:31. > :30:32.a huge drain on the resources. Can she tell us whether the contract

:30:33. > :30:37.included penalties for concentric 's not providing an acceptable service

:30:38. > :30:42.level or answering call is within a set time, if not, who will take the

:30:43. > :30:47.responsibility or negotiating such a flood contract? -- Concentrix.

:30:48. > :30:54.Waiting 70 minutes to have a collards and is not acceptable. I

:30:55. > :31:01.would understand the distress caused. I am going to write to the

:31:02. > :31:06.honourable lady about that, I do not have the detail at hand. I need to

:31:07. > :31:11.assess what we can sleep in terms of commercial content or shouted -- the

:31:12. > :31:13.in terms of commercial confidentiality.

:31:14. > :31:20.The National Audit Office found that the Concentrix contract delivered

:31:21. > :31:25.savings of half ?1 million in 2014-15 compared with the original

:31:26. > :31:28.estimate of ?285 million and was expected to deliver at best half the

:31:29. > :31:32.original savings planned in the contract and as we have heard from

:31:33. > :31:36.constituency post Banks, a large number of errors in the process.

:31:37. > :31:41.What more can the government do to improve the tendering process in

:31:42. > :31:44.future, particularly at HMRC and to improve the managerial capability at

:31:45. > :31:49.HMRC, so that we don't have these mistakes in the future? This is a

:31:50. > :31:56.payment by results contract. As I said in my response to the

:31:57. > :32:01.honourable lady, at the outset, Concentrix will not be paid where

:32:02. > :32:05.they have not acted appropriately and not what the result. Clearly, it

:32:06. > :32:09.is important we get these things right. I take the point that My

:32:10. > :32:14.Honourable Friend has made and I do give him the reassurance that HMRC

:32:15. > :32:18.and government ministers will also raise seek to get the right

:32:19. > :32:23.contracts, but where there are lessons to be learned, we must

:32:24. > :32:29.reflect on them and make sure that they are then reflected in future

:32:30. > :32:34.arrangements. Last week in evidence to the Institute of government, the

:32:35. > :32:39.former Secretary of State, the member for Chingford and Woodford

:32:40. > :32:43.Green admitted that outsourcing to the private sector was not a

:32:44. > :32:48.panacea. Is it not surely with this fiasco around this contract, time

:32:49. > :32:53.for a full review of outsourcing to private companies in the welfare

:32:54. > :32:59.system, actually looking at whether it is appropriate at all or if it is

:33:00. > :33:03.going to continue to be done, what better provision is done by civil

:33:04. > :33:09.servants to oversee these contracts to ensure that these things do not

:33:10. > :33:12.happen again? Again, I would urge members to keep a degree of

:33:13. > :33:19.perspective. There are lots of contracts that deliver. It is worth

:33:20. > :33:23.noting that this contract delivered more than ?280 million of savings to

:33:24. > :33:29.the taxpayer, which represents a sensible return on that investment

:33:30. > :33:33.but service levels must be acceptable to the standard that we

:33:34. > :33:36.have contracted. And there are circumstances in which the use of a

:33:37. > :33:39.private company offers a cost-effective way for government

:33:40. > :33:43.departments to do something which it might not have either the flexible

:33:44. > :33:45.capacity to do or might be for an uncertain period where the

:33:46. > :33:52.flexibility of this nature of contract offers is easier than doing

:33:53. > :33:55.it in-house. I take the points he has made and I will reflect on them

:33:56. > :34:02.but I don't draw the same general conclusion that he has. I very much

:34:03. > :34:05.welcome the statement by the Minister and concur with the point

:34:06. > :34:11.made by the member for the new Forest. The Minister will know that

:34:12. > :34:16.sometimes genuine errors can be made by constituents or by HMRC, and

:34:17. > :34:21.going by my casework or constituency surgeries sometimes that full

:34:22. > :34:28.compassion is not shown by HMRC when a genuine error is made and cannot

:34:29. > :34:32.be done in those difficult circumstances for those most

:34:33. > :34:35.vulnerable and in need? I have the same experience as My Honourable

:34:36. > :34:41.Friend. Only last week in a constituency surgery I sat with the

:34:42. > :34:45.constituent who had a very complex case and was a difficult situation.

:34:46. > :34:50.It is the case that, obviously we can take it up on behalf of

:34:51. > :34:54.constituents, but when constituents deal with HMRC, it is important that

:34:55. > :34:57.they explain the circumstances and HMRC will make every effort to

:34:58. > :35:00.quickly resolve the situation and they are very aware of the need to

:35:01. > :35:05.get people sorted out and get money into their bank accounts as

:35:06. > :35:10.appropriate, and quickly, but it is something that I will reemphasise,

:35:11. > :35:13.it is something I have discussed in recent days and clearly, the

:35:14. > :35:16.interest in this urgent question and the points being made on all sides

:35:17. > :35:22.of the House will be heard where they need to be heard. A significant

:35:23. > :35:26.number of my constituents have been left financially disadvantaged as a

:35:27. > :35:30.result of the antics and the processes at Concentrix. Can the

:35:31. > :35:36.Minister reassure this House at last the priority is to resolve those

:35:37. > :35:42.case is urgently, she should look into finding this company and using

:35:43. > :35:47.those resources to compensate my constituents who have experienced

:35:48. > :35:51.financial distress. I will ask HMRC to advise me on what the nature of

:35:52. > :36:00.on that it is again something that on that it is again something that

:36:01. > :36:03.could be arranged. As a constituency MP who has dealt with the number of

:36:04. > :36:07.cases I am pleased that action will be taken. As a member of the Public

:36:08. > :36:11.Accounts Committee I have sat through reports on the quality of

:36:12. > :36:15.service HMRC provider which is hardly gold standard at times. What

:36:16. > :36:20.reassurance can the Minister provide that we will not see a drop-off in

:36:21. > :36:24.services elsewhere in terms of standards and future arrangements as

:36:25. > :36:31.well with HMRC? I don't believe that will be the case. HMRC has been

:36:32. > :36:36.dealing with cases at the same time as Concentrix throughout this period

:36:37. > :36:39.of the contract. I have been sure that the 150 additional staff

:36:40. > :36:43.deployed with immediate effect are going to be focused on this. I have

:36:44. > :36:49.no reason to believe that any other services. . But his point is well

:36:50. > :36:56.made and will be reemphasise to HMRC. I'm glad to hear that the

:36:57. > :37:02.Concentrix contract is ending. As the Minister mentioned, they will be

:37:03. > :37:06.dealing with ongoing casework. Can she personally intervened to help my

:37:07. > :37:11.constituent who has been plunged into ?1300 worth of debt through the

:37:12. > :37:15.incompetence of Concentrix and they failed to processes annual review

:37:16. > :37:22.review and refused to technology any of my correspondence. Will she take

:37:23. > :37:26.up this case, please? Of course. If any member wishes to write to me I

:37:27. > :37:31.will ask HMRC to look at it as a matter of priority. If she wanted to

:37:32. > :37:36.come, if any other member wants to bring a similar complex case

:37:37. > :37:39.tomorrow to the drop-in, HMRC officials will be available but if

:37:40. > :37:46.she would like to write me of course I will look at it. I first raised

:37:47. > :37:51.this issue last January. It has taken eight months to get to this

:37:52. > :37:58.and that was about a family over the Christmas period who did not have

:37:59. > :38:03.any income. Why does it take the BBC programme two days running to bring

:38:04. > :38:08.ministers to the dispatch box? On Monday a member of my staff was

:38:09. > :38:12.given the runaround between HMRC and Concentrix. On the basis that nobody

:38:13. > :38:21.would take responsibility. My constituents have spent hours on

:38:22. > :38:25.this. I think that involving the private sector in a sensitive issue

:38:26. > :38:27.like this does not work. I'm sorry to hear that the honourable

:38:28. > :38:34.gentleman had that difficult experience. I can't agree with his

:38:35. > :38:37.general point that there is no role for the private sector in this

:38:38. > :38:40.regard. I would refer again to the amount of money saved for the

:38:41. > :38:45.taxpayer. There was a lot of error and fraud in the system. It is

:38:46. > :38:49.important that we bear down on this. Clearly, we don't want money going

:38:50. > :38:55.to people for whom it is not appropriate, and this issue around

:38:56. > :39:00.the nature of people'shouseholds, most of the fraud, much of the fraud

:39:01. > :39:03.does rest in that area. As he highlighted, it is a particularly

:39:04. > :39:07.difficult and sensitive area to investigate. We need to continue to

:39:08. > :39:16.investigate it because of the amount of fraud involved in that area of

:39:17. > :39:21.tax credits is considerable. We can all share the stories of anguish to

:39:22. > :39:27.constituents and frustration for our officers in dealing with this

:39:28. > :39:30.debacle, but we should also remember that the HMRC itself is not an

:39:31. > :39:40.innocent agent in this. It designed this contract. It specified customer

:39:41. > :39:43.hostility and suspicion into the standards of performance and

:39:44. > :39:48.practice in the contract and it was HMRC that were providing the names

:39:49. > :39:51.that were targeted by Concentrix and this is against the backdrop were

:39:52. > :39:58.government has persisted in running down the capacity and character of

:39:59. > :40:03.HMRC. So, will some of those bigger misguided policies be looked at as

:40:04. > :40:08.well as the enjoyment were having today in scapegoating Concentrix

:40:09. > :40:14.themselves? I return to the answer I gave a moment ago. We need to

:40:15. > :40:18.continue to bear down on four unit -- fraud in the system. There is a

:40:19. > :40:25.considerable amount of error and fraud. It would be naive to think

:40:26. > :40:29.that all of this is error. There is fraud in the system. But there is a

:40:30. > :40:32.lot of error which the original design of tax credits makes easier.

:40:33. > :40:36.So it is the case that we need to continue to bear down on fraud, but

:40:37. > :40:44.we need to do it in a way that doesn't make it difficult to the --

:40:45. > :40:49.to assist the most vulnerable. The Minister has mentioned fraud a

:40:50. > :40:52.number of times. There is fraud in the system but I don't see it as an

:40:53. > :40:58.excuse for the errors and the failures that constituents like

:40:59. > :41:02.Sarah Hudson, with three Jobim, struggling to put food on the table.

:41:03. > :41:08.It is no excuse for incompetent contractors. The main point I'd like

:41:09. > :41:14.to make is that I'm glad about the redeployment of HMRC staff to

:41:15. > :41:17.support people. The HMRC office in my constituency and Workington which

:41:18. > :41:20.employs 200 people is due for closure. The nearest regional office

:41:21. > :41:23.is more than two hours Drive away. The phone system is not working and

:41:24. > :41:28.not helping people with their inquiries. We need to review the

:41:29. > :41:31.closure of local offices so that people can keep the support and

:41:32. > :41:37.face-to-face contact that base a much need in situations like this.

:41:38. > :41:41.I'm sorry to hear about the case that she mentions on behalf of her

:41:42. > :41:45.constituent. She raises wider issue about the modernisation project that

:41:46. > :41:51.HMRC is going through, and perhaps it would be appropriate if she wrote

:41:52. > :41:57.to me. It is important, in terms of the modernisation of HMRC as it goes

:41:58. > :42:00.forward, the process that she has described, although it does mean

:42:01. > :42:04.some regional offices are being close. It is an important one,

:42:05. > :42:08.fundamentally, because it is about delivering a better, more modernised

:42:09. > :42:16.service into the future for all of our constituents. I trust that there

:42:17. > :42:23.will be some compensation paid by the company, first of all on whether

:42:24. > :42:27.the contract should have been handled and the way that costs of

:42:28. > :42:33.Bianco, but were other people talking today about how wonderful it

:42:34. > :42:38.would be if this had been brought in House. It wasn't long ago that this

:42:39. > :42:42.House was condemning HMRC for not answering more than half of the

:42:43. > :42:47.telephone calls made by constituents about tax matters. What steps as the

:42:48. > :42:50.minister taken to ensure that new cases will be brought in-house, and

:42:51. > :42:59.that there will not be the same problems with HMRC, as there was

:43:00. > :43:04.with Concentrix? It is obviously documented that at times in the past

:43:05. > :43:08.HMRC have had problems with the phones, but some of the information

:43:09. > :43:12.that has been in the public domain of late has been rather out of date

:43:13. > :43:16.and indeed performance in answering the phones is considerably better

:43:17. > :43:19.and indeed has reached a very good standard in recent weeks. It is

:43:20. > :43:26.important that in all of these things we retain some balance and,

:43:27. > :43:32.with regard to the point around Concentrix, again, worth noting that

:43:33. > :43:35.they have amended around 103,000 claims following checks that they

:43:36. > :43:41.have made. This has been an important exercise but clearly, it

:43:42. > :43:45.needs to be done in the right way. I welcome pennies from the Minister

:43:46. > :43:53.that Concentrix will not get their contract renewed. -- I will the

:43:54. > :43:58.news. But in the meantime, there has been talk about what is

:43:59. > :44:03.unacceptable. Some of the focus on fraud, what we are talking about

:44:04. > :44:08.here today are errors that have been made at which have caused tremendous

:44:09. > :44:12.suffering. We're not talking about occasional exceptions. We are

:44:13. > :44:18.talking about widespread numbers of errors that have been made causing

:44:19. > :44:24.exceptional misery to some families. One of my constituents, a single

:44:25. > :44:32.mother of four, tax credits were in error, and as a result of that,

:44:33. > :44:35.children can no longer access school dinners, the baby, she can't get

:44:36. > :44:45.free milk tokens for, and she's being told, more importantly,

:44:46. > :44:49.that... Will the Minister assure me that she will look into this as a

:44:50. > :44:50.matter of urgency to make sure that this mother can continue to feed her

:44:51. > :45:02.children? I am sorry to hear her constituents

:45:03. > :45:07.has had such a difficult time. I would urge her to use the resource I

:45:08. > :45:14.have referred to take that up. I hope that can be resolved that we as

:45:15. > :45:21.soon as possible. I have emphasised and HMRC are aware of this, speed is

:45:22. > :45:24.of the essence where people have had their tax credits erroneously

:45:25. > :45:29.stopped. She is right, there is an error in the system. This is to

:45:30. > :45:35.complex system and that is why the government is looking to make a

:45:36. > :45:40.major long-term reform to the way we do this, because even the honest

:45:41. > :45:46.taxpayer can easily fall into error in a system that was so complex and

:45:47. > :45:49.its design from the start. As we sit here, families up and down the

:45:50. > :45:57.country have had to rely on charity and food bags to make ends meet due

:45:58. > :46:04.to ridiculous decisions made by Concentrix. Given that so many are

:46:05. > :46:09.living a day to day existence, can the Minister confirm just how

:46:10. > :46:19.quickly people can be elected to receive the money they are rightly

:46:20. > :46:24.entitled? The HMRC, the point to which the facts are resolved, it is

:46:25. > :46:29.important we do that quickly, at the point we have done that and that may

:46:30. > :46:35.be in the course of one phone call, I am assured and this is what I

:46:36. > :46:40.expect to see, in a matter of around four working days, no longer, we get

:46:41. > :46:46.money into people's accounts. This is a matter of days, not weeks. But

:46:47. > :46:49.we need to establish those facts. It is worsening, for the sake of the

:46:50. > :46:56.House having some sense of the perspective on this, -- worth

:46:57. > :47:04.saying. 6% of customers asked for a review of a decision following a

:47:05. > :47:06.cheque. That is a large number of people being checked, but

:47:07. > :47:10.nevertheless it would be wrong to think that this was a huge

:47:11. > :47:14.proportion of the cases. It is important we get those ones right

:47:15. > :47:19.and we look to pay people within days, as soon as we have established

:47:20. > :47:23.the facts of the case. The Minister says that HMRC is supporting

:47:24. > :47:29.Concentrix in performing their contract ending next year. What is

:47:30. > :47:33.the cost to the public purse of that support that is being provided and

:47:34. > :47:41.is that recoverable from Concentrix? It has always been the case that as

:47:42. > :47:45.you would expect managers within HMRC have been working with

:47:46. > :47:50.Concentrix throughout, so I don't anticipate that will be an enormous

:47:51. > :47:52.additional costs because there has always been a relationship between

:47:53. > :47:56.the two because there has been some overlap in the work to be done and I

:47:57. > :48:04.would expect that they continue as we work towards the end of the

:48:05. > :48:10.contract. The Minister is engaged in crisis management, crisis management

:48:11. > :48:17.itself is not good enough. In the opening statement she said that

:48:18. > :48:23.Concentrix are not allowed to fish. They have been fishing. One of my

:48:24. > :48:27.constituents got a letter wanting ?10,000 in back payments.

:48:28. > :48:31.Investigation is needed soon and it needs to look at the contract terms,

:48:32. > :48:41.order process and Concentrix behaviour and needs to look what is

:48:42. > :48:44.the true resource requirements. Unless she announces this, we will

:48:45. > :48:49.be back here in a couple of your's time. Macro to has operational

:48:50. > :48:56.experience to deliver the kind of savings we are looking for in terms

:48:57. > :49:03.of reducing error and fraud. -- two. Practical measures in going forward

:49:04. > :49:07.in simplifying the system, and improving detection of fraud are

:49:08. > :49:11.important parts of making sure we improve performance going for it. It

:49:12. > :49:14.is worth noting again that we have saved hundreds of millions of pounds

:49:15. > :49:18.to the taxpayer by reducing error and fraud but we want to make it

:49:19. > :49:26.harder in the future for people to make errors. As long as I have been

:49:27. > :49:30.one of their MPs, HMRC has treated people in the Wirral with this

:49:31. > :49:35.respect and indignity and this is just the worst in a long series of

:49:36. > :49:41.cases. Can I asked the minister one question, when did she first meet

:49:42. > :49:45.Concentrix to raise our concerns with them for? I have been a

:49:46. > :49:52.minister since mid-July, I have not met Concentrix, I have not been a

:49:53. > :49:57.minister for that long. Clearly colleagues, previous colleagues have

:49:58. > :50:01.done that. But I have been working with HMRC to look at the regular

:50:02. > :50:04.monitoring and given the interest from colleagues across the House in

:50:05. > :50:11.recent weeks, I have been getting daily updates for HMRC in terms of

:50:12. > :50:16.performance. But in the relatively short time, given that we have had

:50:17. > :50:20.summer recess, being in my post, I have not met them. I am sure HMRC

:50:21. > :50:25.will be disappointed to hear what she has dizzy but I think they would

:50:26. > :50:36.want to reflect on her words. To say. One of the issues reported by

:50:37. > :50:39.my constituents is the requirement to send all the documentation by

:50:40. > :50:44.registered post which costs over ?13. This is money that they can ill

:50:45. > :50:53.afford when they're living on the bread line. Will the Secretary of

:50:54. > :50:57.State will look -- look urgently at ways of sending documentation in the

:50:58. > :51:02.remaining ones that Concentrix have the contract? I will ask that

:51:03. > :51:07.question, but I cannot give any assurance if it is possible to alter

:51:08. > :51:12.that in the contract left to run. She highlights an important point

:51:13. > :51:16.about where we go in the future with these sorts of systems. The more

:51:17. > :51:20.that we can make these things Digital and make them really easy

:51:21. > :51:29.for people to get right, the more likely we are to avoid these unhappy

:51:30. > :51:36.situations. The financial Secretary must know I tabled five questions on

:51:37. > :51:44.this issue on Monday. With 1800 people in Belfast employed by

:51:45. > :51:47.Concentrix, with Concentrix redeveloping down to one location in

:51:48. > :51:52.the city of Belfast, could I ask to reflect how appalling that was that

:51:53. > :51:57.members of staff, many of my constituents, found out this news

:51:58. > :52:03.last night from a tweet by the BBC, as by any information from

:52:04. > :52:08.Concentrix and any information from this House. As I have said a number

:52:09. > :52:12.of times, the contract is not being renewed. It has not been terminated.

:52:13. > :52:15.The consideration of whether quite any contract is renewed is something

:52:16. > :52:20.that takes place in the normal course of events. The honourable

:52:21. > :52:25.gentleman does give me an opportunity to place on record my

:52:26. > :52:35.thanks to the many, many Concentrix staff who are doing a job. It is as

:52:36. > :52:40.the same time as we shine a light on where Adam -- form is as

:52:41. > :52:44.unacceptable, there are many people who are doing a good job and

:52:45. > :52:51.providing a good level of service. Many people are succeeding in that

:52:52. > :52:55.regard. I know the Minister says she sees no need for an enquiry but I

:52:56. > :52:57.and I know many colleagues in the chamber today and certainly

:52:58. > :53:05.constituents of us would disagree with that position. My question

:53:06. > :53:07.would be how can we learn lessons to ensure these practices employed by

:53:08. > :53:12.Concentrix don't ever come to light again if we don't look into the

:53:13. > :53:16.practices carried out by some form of investigation or enquiry? I think

:53:17. > :53:21.it is right that in the normal course of events we would always

:53:22. > :53:25.look to, at looking at how we arrange things in the future, to

:53:26. > :53:29.reflect on what we can learn from things that have already happened,

:53:30. > :53:33.and that would be something you would do through a normal process of

:53:34. > :53:38.review and consideration. We will just have to agree to differ with

:53:39. > :53:44.regard to the issue whether an enquiry is needed. I have been

:53:45. > :53:48.contacted by so many distressed moment in my constituency about or

:53:49. > :53:56.how awful Concentrix is. Some advisers have suggested that they

:53:57. > :53:59.were only trying to renew their tax credits to get payday loans to feed

:54:00. > :54:08.their children. Once the claim is processed. There is a grouping

:54:09. > :54:14.formed with over 5000 members. On this group, mothers share the horror

:54:15. > :54:22.stories. I will just give a couple. One will suffice. One it is. The

:54:23. > :54:31.lady may have got the Burnley condition. Does that involve

:54:32. > :54:35.shoehorning. No? OK. One mother hadn't eaten first three days so

:54:36. > :54:44.that she could feed her children. This is sickening and should be

:54:45. > :54:49.stopped. It should have been stopped a long time ago. I am aware of the

:54:50. > :54:54.face group group she mentions and the nature of the cases documented

:54:55. > :54:57.there. To end on when I began, Mr Speaker, that is why we are

:54:58. > :55:05.deploying additional reason so we can deal with the most difficult

:55:06. > :55:08.cases where people are vulnerable in the quickest time possible and that

:55:09. > :55:11.will be my focus and that of HMRC in the coming days. Order. I am most

:55:12. > :55:21.grateful for the financial Secretary and colleagues. Point of order, Mr

:55:22. > :55:26.Gareth Morris. She said she would make an announcement at some point

:55:27. > :55:32.next week. While the reply Lou Schmidt fund is next week and

:55:33. > :55:37.represents a hard deadline, given the scale of taxpayers funding at

:55:38. > :55:41.stake, will fully up to ?1.2 billion, should not this House of

:55:42. > :55:44.Commons representative as we are of the British taxpayers interest be

:55:45. > :55:54.informed first before any briefings to the media or to other countries?

:55:55. > :55:56.It is a matter for ministers. Announcements are made and

:55:57. > :56:01.frequently are during recess periods. But if the government knows

:56:02. > :56:07.what it is that it intends to announce, I would hope that it would

:56:08. > :56:14.be sensitive to the prior claim of members of this House, first to be

:56:15. > :56:16.informed, rather than for the information to be disseminated

:56:17. > :56:26.through the media. Or to some other less deserving source. I hope that

:56:27. > :56:32.deals with the matter for now. I am grateful to the honourable gentleman

:56:33. > :56:44.for raising this issue. These often need to be announced in the House

:56:45. > :56:49.anyway. When it made have been -- to have been made earlier to the House.

:56:50. > :56:55.When it was delivered to the House, I ensured that everybody questioned

:56:56. > :56:57.the relevant ministers sought a considerable allocation of time was

:56:58. > :57:01.required. It is better if the government anticipates these things

:57:02. > :57:07.in the first place rather than waiting on later than necessary. On

:57:08. > :57:18.the presentation of the bill, the Minister of the exchequer. Second

:57:19. > :57:26.reading, what day? Tomorrow. Presentation of Bill, Raymond Tisch

:57:27. > :57:38.day. Health services commissioning equality Bill. Second reading, what

:57:39. > :57:55.day? 2nd of December 20 16. Air quality, diesel emissions. 18th of

:57:56. > :58:05.November 2000 16. Sugar and food and drinks, targets labelling and label

:58:06. > :58:13.information Bill. Friday the 4th of November 20 16. The honourable

:58:14. > :58:22.gentleman will prove to be a busy bee. He is buzzing away now. Her

:58:23. > :58:33.helpfully as he points out. We come to the ten minute rule motion. Ten

:58:34. > :58:39.minute rule motion, Charlie Elphicke. I beg the leave be given

:58:40. > :58:41.to bring in a bill to plumb on the withdrawal of the United Kingdom

:58:42. > :58:48.from membership of the European Union and her connected furnaces.

:58:49. > :58:56.Brexit means Brexit and we will make a success of it. It also means

:58:57. > :59:01.Brexit means Brexit and it means we need to get on with it. The mantle

:59:02. > :59:07.of Article 50 is a matter for the Prime Minister alone. She has the

:59:08. > :59:12.mandate of the masses given to her on June the 23rd and it is right

:59:13. > :59:16.that she invoke it. I hope the sooner she invokes that the better

:59:17. > :59:22.so we have the security, the stability and the certainty we need

:59:23. > :59:27.as we seek to build a post Brexit Britain. I bring this House, I bring

:59:28. > :59:30.this bill to the House today. First to give the House an opportunity to

:59:31. > :59:38.endorse and accept the decision of the British people on June the 23rd.

:59:39. > :59:41.And second, to talk about the red lines that the British people

:59:42. > :59:45.clearly have in terms of what Brexit will look like. And third, a

:59:46. > :59:50.visionary can have for a post Brexit Britain that we will build. The

:59:51. > :00:00.first issue is this issue of where members of Parliament were when it

:00:01. > :00:07.came to the referendum. I'm a self was concerned about the border

:00:08. > :00:09.between border -- myself concerned about the border between Dover and

:00:10. > :00:15.Calais. I am here today to say that is their decision. We must endorse

:00:16. > :00:21.it. This is in particular for the Labour Party to reject we should

:00:22. > :00:23.have a second referendum to drive the British people back into the

:00:24. > :00:28.European Union again. It is not urgent if the party opposite to say

:00:29. > :00:33.we accept and will submit to the will of the British people and will

:00:34. > :00:43.help make Brexit as excess. I see to the SNP as well who don't seem like

:00:44. > :00:55.too -- to like the result of any referendum on these British Isles at

:00:56. > :01:03.all. Including accepting the decision of the Scottish people to

:01:04. > :01:08.remain part of the European union and the United Kingdom. I would say

:01:09. > :01:13.to them, they would be wrong to think that if at first you don't

:01:14. > :01:18.succeed, vote, vote again should be the motto. That would be the wrong

:01:19. > :01:22.approach to take. Turning to the red lines of the British people, it is

:01:23. > :01:27.very clear that the British people are deeply concerned about the level

:01:28. > :01:32.of uncontrolled EU immigration. And they have been told and pledged in

:01:33. > :01:35.manifestos that the number would be brought down of net migration to

:01:36. > :01:41.tens of thousands. Last year, it was 330,000. And they are very

:01:42. > :01:48.concerned, people on Dover tell me on a regular basis, about the

:01:49. > :01:53.pressure this makes on their wages and they have been underlined and

:01:54. > :02:00.proved right. By important research that showed it has wages to be ?450

:02:01. > :02:12.lower for hard-working classes of Britain.

:02:13. > :02:21.There is work by the OECD published in 2014 that underlines that mass

:02:22. > :02:26.migration does not, and has not, benefited the people of Britain or

:02:27. > :02:29.across the world in general. It does not have an economic good and work

:02:30. > :02:36.for the British people in their daily lives. So that red line is

:02:37. > :02:42.clear. We must end uncontrolled EU immigration. And the second point,

:02:43. > :02:47.underlined by Apple recently published by Lord Ashcroft, that

:02:48. > :02:53.people do not want to have billions for Brussels -- underlined by an

:02:54. > :02:56.opinion poll recently published. We cannot have a Brexit deal that

:02:57. > :03:00.involves handing over billions to Brussels. That money should be

:03:01. > :03:03.invested at home in Britain. We need to have a renaissance for the towns

:03:04. > :03:08.and regions of Britain and we should use that money wisely which brings

:03:09. > :03:13.me to the final point I want to make in this bill, and the most important

:03:14. > :03:16.point, what is the kind of post-Brexit Britain that we're going

:03:17. > :03:20.to build? What is this country going to look like? And by constituents

:03:21. > :03:28.say to me, it always seems to be about investing in HS2, or runways

:03:29. > :03:33.at Heathrow, or ?4.7 billion for Crossrail, it always seems to be

:03:34. > :03:45.about benefiting London or the jet elite. What about us in Dover? Why

:03:46. > :03:51.not dual the A2? Every region of this country will tell you about an

:03:52. > :03:54.infrastructure project, and that it always seems to work for the London

:03:55. > :03:58.metropolitan populist rather than regions. We need to have a

:03:59. > :04:02.rebalancing of this country for the 90% that live in their towns and

:04:03. > :04:05.regions of this nation rather than the capital. It is time for a

:04:06. > :04:10.Britain that works for everyone and to have capital expenditure working

:04:11. > :04:14.for everyone as well. London gets ?10,000 up public expenditure per

:04:15. > :04:22.head, the Southeast less than 8000. It is a difference of some 26%. My

:04:23. > :04:26.constituents say that the allegation resources isn't there, getting this

:04:27. > :04:30.money back from Brussels is an opportunity to make it fair. Then

:04:31. > :04:34.this issue of who does Britain work for, and who do the constituents of

:04:35. > :04:38.the towns and regions of this nation, who did it feel that it

:04:39. > :04:42.works for? That too often, it works for people like Philip Green, the

:04:43. > :04:48.privileged few, rather than the hard working class kids of Dover Deal,

:04:49. > :04:51.and Doncaster and Darlington and they think that that needs to

:04:52. > :04:58.change. Big business needs to have a change of culture. We know about how

:04:59. > :05:01.Apple have been gaming the tax system and how when it comes to the

:05:02. > :05:05.tax system in this country there are bad Apple and we know that Amazon

:05:06. > :05:09.have a Luxembourg structure, and we should look closely into their

:05:10. > :05:13.books, and I hope that HMRC will do that. We must make sure that when it

:05:14. > :05:16.comes to Google, the Public Accounts Committee is supported in making

:05:17. > :05:23.sure that Google pays a fair share of tax in this country and when it

:05:24. > :05:28.comes to car rental businesses like Avis, that gestured that we are

:05:29. > :05:32.being taken for a ride when they are imposing a Brexit tax on British

:05:33. > :05:35.people but not paying any corporation tax to Britain, because

:05:36. > :05:39.they have a Luxembourg structure. It is that kind of thing that drives

:05:40. > :05:44.the people of Dover Deal round the bend and we need to put a stop to

:05:45. > :05:49.it. We can do that when we leave the European Union. Very simply, we can

:05:50. > :05:52.do that, because we will not be stuck by anti-discrimination rules

:05:53. > :05:56.that make it hard for us to secure our tax base. We must make sure that

:05:57. > :06:00.Britain's works with people as a whole, rather than for the bloated

:06:01. > :06:04.boardroom bonuses that we have seen too much of recently, and too much

:06:05. > :06:09.in years. The ground-breaking research that the member for Croydon

:06:10. > :06:13.South showed is that pay in the boardroom is 150 times that for

:06:14. > :06:16.chief executives, than it is for employees of FTSE 100 companies.

:06:17. > :06:23.That is not right, and yet that has doubled in the last 12 years.

:06:24. > :06:27.Companies like BP say, we are not accountable to you, we will do what

:06:28. > :06:31.we like. That kind of culture needs to change. We must have a country

:06:32. > :06:35.that works for everyone, not just the privileged few. It is really

:06:36. > :06:43.important, then, that we make sure that when we have investment, we

:06:44. > :06:46.have more further regions, regions like Bristol, Birmingham and

:06:47. > :06:49.Manchester that we have railways that work for everyone in the

:06:50. > :06:53.regions as well with bigger investment and that we have roads

:06:54. > :06:57.further regions as well. So, in closing, I simply say this, Brexit

:06:58. > :07:01.means Brexit. We are going to make a success of it, but it is an

:07:02. > :07:04.opportunity to change how we run Britain and the change of a national

:07:05. > :07:08.way of life, to change with the country works for, and to make sure

:07:09. > :07:11.that it works for the truly everyone, rather than just the

:07:12. > :07:15.privileged few, as it has for too long. That is a kind of change we

:07:16. > :07:25.can make. It was the towns and regions of this country take this

:07:26. > :07:27.country out of the European Union, and it was the towns and regions of

:07:28. > :07:30.this country that should be supported in leading the charge to

:07:31. > :07:33.have a future that we can build as we head out into the single market

:07:34. > :07:38.of the world. The question is that the honourable member has lead to

:07:39. > :07:43.bring in the bill, Stewart Hosie. To decline the honourable member about

:07:44. > :07:47.to bring in his bill. He said that we in Scotland, the SNP in

:07:48. > :07:52.particular should "Respect the decision, the outcome of the

:07:53. > :07:56.referendum". Madam Deputy Speaker, I very much respect the outcome of

:07:57. > :08:00.those nations who voted to leave the EU. I would simply say to my friend

:08:01. > :08:05.from Dover that perhaps he and his colleagues should respect the wishes

:08:06. > :08:11.of those nations who voted to remain in the EU. It is always sweet, I

:08:12. > :08:17.think, to be chided by the honourable member for Dover. He

:08:18. > :08:21.railed against the Jetset elite. He talked about the imbalance in

:08:22. > :08:25.boardroom pay. We don't need to leave the EU and destroy

:08:26. > :08:32.opportunities to tackle imbalance in boardroom pay. He talked about the

:08:33. > :08:38.imbalance in public spending, and he was right to do so. Other parts of

:08:39. > :08:41.the country, the East Berlin, the north-west of England, get even less

:08:42. > :08:47.than the south-east gets, such is the imbalance. We don't need to

:08:48. > :08:51.leave the EU, and we can job opportunities and export

:08:52. > :08:55.opportunities, in order to rebalance public spending throughout the

:08:56. > :08:58.English regions. If only we had an English Parliament to deal with

:08:59. > :09:04.these things, things would be so much better. The honourable

:09:05. > :09:10.gentleman spoke about corporate tax, and how little is paid by some of

:09:11. > :09:17.the Goliath s of the global corporate world. We don't to leave

:09:18. > :09:22.the EU and we can opportunity further in order to deliver fairness

:09:23. > :09:27.and corporate taxation. In essence, the honourable gentleman made a

:09:28. > :09:32.pitch to leave now, because he said Brexit means Brexit and we will make

:09:33. > :09:38.a success of it. I think I am quoting accurately. The problem,

:09:39. > :09:47.Madam Deputy Speaker, and why no one can support this, is when the Prime

:09:48. > :09:51.Minister, the leader of government, the high heid yin of the Tory Party

:09:52. > :09:54.is asked, if Brexit means Brexit and it means will we stay in the single

:09:55. > :10:02.market, she doesn't know. When she was asked the most simple question,

:10:03. > :10:05.will the passport thing in place for financial services be maintained,

:10:06. > :10:09.she said, I refer you to the answer I gave last week, which is that I

:10:10. > :10:13.don't actually know. On the basis that Brexit means Brexit is more --

:10:14. > :10:21.is no more than a meaningless campaigning expression and none of

:10:22. > :10:26.the attributes or benefits described by the honourable gentleman in terms

:10:27. > :10:29.of Brexit, tackling corporate pay, tackling corporate taxation,

:10:30. > :10:33.tackling the imbalance in regional public expenditure in England, will

:10:34. > :10:38.in any way, shape or form be addressed, let alone improved, by

:10:39. > :10:44.Brexit, and I feel, Madam Deputy Speaker, that we're going to have

:10:45. > :10:50.two call against his valiant attempts to drag the whole of the UK

:10:51. > :10:54.including those parts that voted to stay in out of the EU, therefore

:10:55. > :11:04.there is even a plan. The question is that the honourable member have

:11:05. > :11:05.leave to bring in the bill. As many as another opinion say aye, contrary

:11:06. > :11:34.know. Division, division. -- As many as are of that opinion

:11:35. > :11:49.say aye, contrary no division, division.

:11:50. > :11:54.The question is that the honourable member have leave to bring in the

:11:55. > :12:00.bill. As many as are of that opinion say aye, contrary no. Tellers for

:12:01. > :12:07.the Ayes eyes Craig McKinlay, tellers for the Noes, Jeff Smith.

:12:08. > :22:31.The ayes, 50. Thenos, 17 The nos have it. IBEC to note that the draft

:22:32. > :22:38.wealthier and work order be approved. These will ensure that the

:22:39. > :22:45.welfare reforms ensured by the welfare and reform work or that a

:22:46. > :22:49.work order will be delivered in Northern Ireland. This is an

:22:50. > :22:52.important part of delivering the fresh start agreement and enables

:22:53. > :22:56.the Northern island executive to provide for supplementary welfare

:22:57. > :22:59.payments from within their own budget. Before the fresh start

:23:00. > :23:02.agreement, the impasse on agreeing the intimidation of welfare reform

:23:03. > :23:07.and that the Northern Ireland executive have been operating on and

:23:08. > :23:10.on workable budget. This credit significant political instability

:23:11. > :23:13.and risked a collapse in the devolution settlement. This order

:23:14. > :23:16.today brings changes that will help ensure the budget of the Northern

:23:17. > :23:20.Ireland executive is placed on a stable footing. Madam Deputy

:23:21. > :23:24.Speaker, we want to work with the Northern Ireland executive to

:23:25. > :23:27.support eight Northern Ireland where politics works and a Northern

:23:28. > :23:31.Ireland with a stronger economy and a stronger and secure society. It is

:23:32. > :23:34.in light of these goals, that the Government agreed to legislate on

:23:35. > :23:40.behalf of the executive to enable the welfare reform changes in both

:23:41. > :23:44.the 2012 and the welfare reform and work out of 2016. Changes such as

:23:45. > :23:48.the introduction of universal credit, personal independence

:23:49. > :23:52.payment, and the benefit. It has formed an integral part of the fresh

:23:53. > :23:55.start agreement in November last year. The welfare reform Northern

:23:56. > :24:00.Ireland order passed in December last year has enabled the making of

:24:01. > :24:05.over 30 sets of regulations, replicating in Northern Ireland the

:24:06. > :24:08.welfare reforms from the 2012 act. The welfare reform and work order

:24:09. > :24:12.before the house today is the next step in that process. It has been

:24:13. > :24:22.drafted with the full consent and collaboration of the Northern

:24:23. > :24:24.Ireland executive to bring Social Security in Northern Ireland back to

:24:25. > :24:26.a position of parity, thereby helping to rebalance and

:24:27. > :24:28.strengthened the finances of the executive. Madam Deputy Speaker,

:24:29. > :24:31.across the UK, are welfare reforms are focused on supporting people to

:24:32. > :24:34.find and keep work, a focus on employment, fairness and

:24:35. > :24:38.affordability, while supporting the vulnerable. Over the past six years,

:24:39. > :24:42.we have stuck to our economic plan, delivered welfare reform and seemed

:24:43. > :24:48.great progress with climate up at 2.7 million. Broadening life chances

:24:49. > :24:52.is a central part of this Government's plans. In Northern

:24:53. > :24:57.Ireland, raising of tax thresholds will take 110,000 of the lowest paid

:24:58. > :25:01.people out of income tax altogether and 700,000 people will benefit from

:25:02. > :25:04.reduced taxes. 100,000 people in Northern Ireland are predicted to

:25:05. > :25:13.benefit from the national living wage by 2020. The Government wants

:25:14. > :25:17.to support people hand-in-hand with the welfare programme to encourage

:25:18. > :25:20.people into work. We have also invested in Northern Ireland. The

:25:21. > :25:25.Stormont health and fresh start agreement included packages to

:25:26. > :25:28.support investment and reform. This includes ?350 million of additional

:25:29. > :25:32.capital borrowing explicitly for economic development projects. By

:25:33. > :25:37.working together, the Government and the executive have achieved

:25:38. > :25:41.significant successes, including bringing ?69 in additional finance

:25:42. > :25:45.to Northern Ireland businesses, providing additional borrowing for a

:25:46. > :25:50.shared education projects and increasing green investment by ?70

:25:51. > :25:55.million. In Northern Ireland, there are 55,000 more people in employment

:25:56. > :25:59.since 2010. But there is much more still to be done. The most recent

:26:00. > :26:05.Northern Ireland unemployment rate of 5.6% is above the overall UK

:26:06. > :26:09.average of 4.9%. The percentage of unemployed people who have been out

:26:10. > :26:15.of work for more than a year is 47.8%, markedly higher than the UK

:26:16. > :26:20.average of 27%. 22% of working age households in Northern Ireland are

:26:21. > :26:26.workless, can to 15% in the UK as a whole. The welfare reform and work

:26:27. > :26:29.act is built on the 2012 reforms, this order provides these

:26:30. > :26:32.legislative framework to repeat some of its most important aspects.

:26:33. > :26:36.Changes such as improving fairness in the welfare system by changing

:26:37. > :26:41.the level of the benefit. This order will bring the level of the benefit

:26:42. > :26:44.in Northern Ireland alongside that of Great Britain, ensuring parity.

:26:45. > :26:48.Changes such as providing new funding for additional support to

:26:49. > :26:53.help US eight and universal credit claimants with Alcan efficient and

:26:54. > :26:56.disabilities into work as well as removing the EAS a work-related

:26:57. > :27:00.activity components of the right support and the right incentives are

:27:01. > :27:04.in place for those who are able to take steps back into work. Changes

:27:05. > :27:09.such as correcting the unsustainable rise in benefit levels compared to

:27:10. > :27:12.earnings by freezing most working age benefits. Importantly, these

:27:13. > :27:15.changes will help ensure the budget of the Northern Ireland indicative

:27:16. > :27:18.is placed on a stable footing. It was agreed in the fresh start

:27:19. > :27:20.agreement that the executive to could supplement benefits from

:27:21. > :27:27.within their own budget. The agreement allocated up to 585

:27:28. > :27:30.million pounds of the executive's block grant over four years to

:27:31. > :27:33.provide for supplementary welfare payments in Northern Ireland, which

:27:34. > :27:40.would be reviewed in three years. Under the 2015 order, the assembly

:27:41. > :27:43.has already passed regulations for supplementary welfare payments

:27:44. > :27:46.related to the 2012 order. The provision of this order will give

:27:47. > :27:49.the assembly the ability to design and pass further such regulation

:27:50. > :27:53.including supplementary payments to those affected by the removal of the

:27:54. > :27:59.spare room subsidy. These time-limited payments follow the

:28:00. > :28:02.recommendations of the Everson report, which flowed from a

:28:03. > :28:05.commitment in the fresh start agreement. This order is about

:28:06. > :28:09.delivering the fresh start agreement and returning Northern Ireland to a

:28:10. > :28:16.position of legislative parity and financial stability and Madam Deputy

:28:17. > :28:22.Speaker, I commend it to the house. The question is and is on the order

:28:23. > :28:26.paper. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Can I thank the member for

:28:27. > :28:33.bringing this bill to the house? It is a shame it could not have been

:28:34. > :28:36.resolved in Northern Ireland. In an attempt to break a budgetary

:28:37. > :28:42.deadlock and avoid the potential collapse of the Stormont

:28:43. > :28:49.institutions, I and many members are glad to see this deal reached and

:28:50. > :28:52.credit to all of those involved. I have personally been involved in

:28:53. > :28:55.Northern Ireland affairs for almost 30 years, within the trade union

:28:56. > :29:01.movement, as a member of the Northern Ireland affairs committee

:29:02. > :29:04.and as a juror of the British Irish Parliamentary Association. In the

:29:05. > :29:07.union work I was involved in any 1990s, we worked hard to deal with

:29:08. > :29:12.the peace process. We coined a phrase that we were a nonpartisan

:29:13. > :29:18.agent for change. It is that phrase that has guided my work inside and

:29:19. > :29:22.outside of this house. With that attitude in mind, I want to address

:29:23. > :29:26.the house. My party takes great pride in the role we played in

:29:27. > :29:29.bringing about in Northern Ireland. We have worked with good people on

:29:30. > :29:32.the ground and from around the world, from the Good Friday

:29:33. > :29:35.agreement to the fresh start agreement and much in between. We

:29:36. > :29:39.have always tried to work in the best interests of the people of

:29:40. > :29:43.Northern Ireland. What is paramount here today is the ongoing peace and

:29:44. > :29:48.stability in Northern Ireland and we in the Labour Party will work with

:29:49. > :29:51.the Government and all interested parties in this house and in

:29:52. > :29:56.Northern Ireland in maintaining this, and I'm sure all members will

:29:57. > :29:59.agree with that. As part of the fresh start agreement, we included

:30:00. > :30:04.legislative consent for the Northern Ireland assembly and now Parliament

:30:05. > :30:07.to create legislation on its behalf and I respect the authority of these

:30:08. > :30:14.heavily to do that and I am sad that they have had to do it. Amongst all

:30:15. > :30:21.of the measures, the welfare reform act of 2012 and 2016, it is quite

:30:22. > :30:24.clear to me that the Government's welfare reform programme has

:30:25. > :30:27.devastated the lives of far too many vulnerable people across the whole

:30:28. > :30:31.of Great Britain, plunging them into financial distress. We heard for the

:30:32. > :30:36.last hour of the discussions around the tax credit fiasco. These are

:30:37. > :30:43.real people, suffering as a result of the work that this Government has

:30:44. > :30:44.brought in. I and many of my members across this house have seen these

:30:45. > :31:01.cuts day-to-day. We will never, in this party, stop

:31:02. > :31:03.showing our opposition to the Tory austerity agenda, something we have

:31:04. > :31:12.constantly railed against over recent years. We stood in opposition

:31:13. > :31:16.against cuts to tax credits, a benefit cut that doesn't rise with

:31:17. > :31:23.inflation, cuts to cancel tax credits, cuts to crisis loans and

:31:24. > :31:28.never say to as the that 42% deemed to be fit for work were actually

:31:29. > :31:36.cleared on site on appeal. What a damning indictment on the party

:31:37. > :31:39.opposite. Biden Deputy Speaker, welfare reform was intended by this

:31:40. > :31:43.Government to impact very, very hard on the most vulnerable people in the

:31:44. > :31:48.UK and forced them into work even when they are not well equipped to

:31:49. > :31:51.do so. The desire to inflict in the people of Northern Ireland the same

:31:52. > :31:56.disastrous policy that has lacked the lives of so many constituents

:31:57. > :31:59.right across Great Britain is a desperate tactic by a government

:32:00. > :32:08.more concerned with ideology than compassion. Using austerity as a

:32:09. > :32:16.weapon of policy was and still is a crude instrument. The role of

:32:17. > :32:22.posterity in the note one errant -- long-term economic plan, path, the

:32:23. > :32:27.language they used in seeing we will make work pay rental for those

:32:28. > :32:32.forced to work while struggling with illness, injury or disease. It

:32:33. > :32:34.should be shown as the truth, as government wants to make it

:32:35. > :32:39.impossible for anyone to survive on benefits. That is hugely unfair to

:32:40. > :32:43.those struggling day to day through no fault of their own. There may be

:32:44. > :32:46.some who say these changes should apply to Northern Ireland because

:32:47. > :32:54.they do across the rest of Great Britain. But two wrongs do not make

:32:55. > :32:57.a right. The party opposite clearly believes in the equalisation of

:32:58. > :33:03.misery. Madame Deputy Speaker, this party believes in the alleviation of

:33:04. > :33:07.misery. And we would get back to power, we will not be attacking the

:33:08. > :33:10.city, the young, the elderly and disabled, we will not be calling

:33:11. > :33:16.them scroungers or skivers. We will not declare on anyone whose curtains

:33:17. > :33:20.are not open by a specific time any day and we will not be making the

:33:21. > :33:24.poor pay for the failings of the rich and those who dabbled in the

:33:25. > :33:28.money markets. It is interesting, as the Minister said, that within the

:33:29. > :33:34.fresh start agreement, there are measures to mitigate against the

:33:35. > :33:38.ongoing austerity regime. But does that not sure that these measures

:33:39. > :33:42.should not be being brought in in the first place? It is an acceptance

:33:43. > :33:46.of the problems that they're going to pile on to people that do not

:33:47. > :33:50.deserve them. Another issue we have advised is that these cuts will take

:33:51. > :33:56.?750 million out of the Northern Ireland economy, and that lost their

:33:57. > :34:01.work age adults is 38% higher than what the UK average would be, at

:34:02. > :34:09.?650 per year. In Northern Ireland, the recent announcement of job

:34:10. > :34:13.losses, the job losses at Ballina upwards of 850, or the Caterpillar

:34:14. > :34:17.factory in Newtownabbey and others. Those men and women losing their

:34:18. > :34:22.jobs would find less support than ever and this will do nothing but

:34:23. > :34:26.compounded their difficulties as they try to find their way to the

:34:27. > :34:29.world of unemployment. Northern Ireland, as the Minister just

:34:30. > :34:33.mentioned, has some of the highest levels of long-term unemployment in

:34:34. > :34:37.the United Kingdom. Almost one in ten adults of working age are in

:34:38. > :34:42.receipt of disability living allowance. Almost twice the national

:34:43. > :34:49.average. They are hit much more than other parts of the major kingdom.

:34:50. > :34:52.Belfast in particular is the city that will be damaged most by these

:34:53. > :34:55.reforms. Poverty is an all too real everyday reality for many in

:34:56. > :34:59.Northern Ireland. These reforms will serve no other purpose than to

:35:00. > :35:03.compound his difficulties. These cuts had the vulnerable, the

:35:04. > :35:07.disabled, families and children. That is something that this party

:35:08. > :35:13.will not be complicit in. We have to accept, despite the huge opposition

:35:14. > :35:16.to these so-called reforms, they have been enforced on the people of

:35:17. > :35:19.Great Britain but that does not make it any more palatable or give any

:35:20. > :35:22.more reason to also forced the changes on the people of Northern

:35:23. > :35:27.Ireland and I would say we have to accept the very real circumstances

:35:28. > :35:31.in history, and the current difficulties people in Northern

:35:32. > :35:36.Ireland first. According to figures from Northern Ireland statistics and

:35:37. > :35:41.research agency, since 1998, more people have taken their own life in

:35:42. > :35:44.Northern Ireland than died throughout the Troubles. Research

:35:45. > :35:49.shows that during the recession those figures increased. The suicide

:35:50. > :35:54.rate is 70% higher in Northern Ireland than the UK average. Forcing

:35:55. > :35:59.the vulnerable in society further into despair will do nothing to

:36:00. > :36:02.defeat this problem. We support any work aimed at maintaining the

:36:03. > :36:08.long-term stability of the institutions of Northern Ireland.

:36:09. > :36:12.But we also remember the days of direct rule as a testament of how

:36:13. > :36:15.important it is to make sure that these institutions did not just

:36:16. > :36:20.carry on but flourished and improve. On that basis, we will not block

:36:21. > :36:24.this today, we will not oppose this today, but in no way should this be

:36:25. > :36:28.taken that we condone what is being done by this Government to the

:36:29. > :36:36.people of Northern Ireland. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Could I

:36:37. > :36:40.thank the honourable member, my honourable friend, for outlining the

:36:41. > :36:45.position in relation to welfare reform and about the fact that it

:36:46. > :36:51.can be so pernicious in bringing about bad impacts on people who are

:36:52. > :36:57.already in receipt of low income? I welcome the fact that the Minister

:36:58. > :37:01.is here, the Minister in the Treasury, the honourable member for

:37:02. > :37:05.East Hampshire, who has outlined the position in relation to this

:37:06. > :37:10.supplementary legislation. We have always been very clear about our

:37:11. > :37:14.position on this, and our position is on the record. Both in this

:37:15. > :37:16.chamber and in the Northern Ireland assembly. Legislation dealing with

:37:17. > :37:23.welfare reform should have been dealt with in the assembly, as

:37:24. > :37:25.originally envisaged. Westminster's interference into our devolved

:37:26. > :37:31.welfare arrangements was inappropriate. As were the

:37:32. > :37:35.subsequent fines. And I do recall, as a former minister for social

:37:36. > :37:39.development in Northern Ireland for some three years, bringing forward,

:37:40. > :37:47.shall we say, karaoke legislation in relation to welfare issues in terms

:37:48. > :37:52.of all of the regulations, why should this have been different this

:37:53. > :37:57.time? The DUP and Sinn Fein voted through the legislative consent

:37:58. > :38:02.motion in the assembly to hand our welfare powers over to Westminster.

:38:03. > :38:09.Indeed, far from their original promises that no claimant would be

:38:10. > :38:16.worse off, Sinn Fein handed our welfare powers over to here to carry

:38:17. > :38:21.out its dirty work when they do not even take their seats in this

:38:22. > :38:25.chamber. The whole essence of devolution as to improve the lives

:38:26. > :38:29.of people in Northern Ireland and devolution, we feel, is damaged if

:38:30. > :38:32.the two largest parties in the assembly, and the Northern Ireland

:38:33. > :38:37.Executive, pick and choose which powers they have and when they have

:38:38. > :38:41.them. People in Northern Ireland must be able to have that confidence

:38:42. > :38:50.that the political institutions upon which we agreed back in the

:38:51. > :38:56.referendum, in May 1998, that they have to believe that the people and

:38:57. > :38:59.the politicians are serious about the powers that they have and that

:39:00. > :39:05.they will fiercely defend any attempts to reduce those powers.

:39:06. > :39:08.This should have been a matter for the devolved assembly, which should

:39:09. > :39:13.have resisted the Treasury's interference is and taxes on our

:39:14. > :39:18.devolved budget, and instead the DUP and Sinn Fein were delighted to have

:39:19. > :39:25.the power is taken off their hands for some 30 months. We made numerous

:39:26. > :39:31.attempts to build consensus on welfare reform as far back as 2010.

:39:32. > :39:34.-- for some 13 months. In the assembly, and in this House, when

:39:35. > :39:38.the original Welfare Reform Bill was going through the House, through my

:39:39. > :39:44.honourable friend the member of foil, and even before it came to the

:39:45. > :39:47.assembly. We, as a party, were always realistic about the

:39:48. > :39:53.implications of welfare reform and made the case for mitigation, which

:39:54. > :40:00.was sustainable and which would be included in the devolved budget. And

:40:01. > :40:03.I can well recall a meeting that we had, with the Minister at that

:40:04. > :40:11.stage, in the Department for Work and Pensions, the Minister, who sits

:40:12. > :40:18.in the other Place, Lord Freud, and at that stage, we outline specific

:40:19. > :40:22.measures that would to mitigate the impact of welfare reform in Northern

:40:23. > :40:26.Ireland, and it is surprising, maybe not so surprising, that those very

:40:27. > :40:32.areas were eventually to come about as mitigation measures. We divided

:40:33. > :40:39.on the bill, last year, and the order when it came to the size in

:40:40. > :40:42.2015. And there is another matter that I would welcome clarification

:40:43. > :40:48.on from the Minister, regarding clause nine of the Finance Bill,

:40:49. > :40:51.which is directly related to this statutory instrument, and I hope the

:40:52. > :40:57.Minister will be able to clarify the situation for me. My honourable

:40:58. > :41:01.friend, the Member for Foyle, raised the matter of new clothes name in

:41:02. > :41:07.the Finance Bill last week, and it provides for the Treasury to ensure,

:41:08. > :41:12.and open quotations, that no liability to income tax allowance on

:41:13. > :41:19.welfare payments of a specified description". But it also makes

:41:20. > :41:28.provision for the Treasury to make regulations to impose a charge to

:41:29. > :41:32.income tax under part ten on payments of a specified description.

:41:33. > :41:35.We have been at the forefront of securing mitigating powers for the

:41:36. > :41:40.assembly to enable it to make supplementary payments, so could the

:41:41. > :41:47.Minister, the honourable member for East Hampshire, confirmed today that

:41:48. > :41:50.it does not give the Treasury the green light to interfere in

:41:51. > :41:55.decisions by the executive and the assembly around supplementary

:41:56. > :42:00.payments by dictating that these payments could be subject to a tax

:42:01. > :42:05.claw-back? These top welfare payments will be made, as the

:42:06. > :42:10.Minister knows, from the executive's on devolved budget and will not come

:42:11. > :42:18.under annually managed expenditure, which is the usual route for payment

:42:19. > :42:23.of benefits throughout Northern Ireland. Minister Ellison last week

:42:24. > :42:26.confirmed that it would not, in response to my honourable friend,

:42:27. > :42:31.the Member for foil, could the honourable member for East

:42:32. > :42:37.Hampshire, the Minister at the dispatch box today, confirm...

:42:38. > :42:52.Reconfirmed this position? As stated, we as a party have worked to

:42:53. > :42:54.secure mitigation and we need supplementary payments for

:42:55. > :42:58.mitigation measures and it is for this reason today that we will not

:42:59. > :43:04.push the House to evade decision on this matter, which I am sure some

:43:05. > :43:10.people will be pleased about! But notwithstanding that it is important

:43:11. > :43:17.to remember that welfare reform, and particularly welfare reform and work

:43:18. > :43:23.Bill, upon which this regulation is based, will introduce fairly

:43:24. > :43:28.pernicious measures into Northern Ireland, and will impact on those,

:43:29. > :43:33.in terms of low income, who are reliant on benefit. And I fear that

:43:34. > :43:41.it could push people further into poverty. So it is incumbent, we

:43:42. > :43:46.feel, on the government to ensure that people are protected, that

:43:47. > :43:50.there is some form of vision. And I respect the fact that the mitigation

:43:51. > :43:55.measures will ensure that, but that they look... That the government

:43:56. > :44:02.looks at other measures to ensure that people can live in a decent

:44:03. > :44:06.sort of life. And, in fact, early today, the honourable member for

:44:07. > :44:11.East Belfast initiated a debate on social funeral payments. And we

:44:12. > :44:14.participated in that debate because there is a feeling that those

:44:15. > :44:20.general payments have been capped for several years and there has been

:44:21. > :44:29.no corresponding increase when the cost of such measures have exceeded

:44:30. > :44:32.beyond, shall we say, the income bounds of many people. So, in that

:44:33. > :44:42.respect, we did not hear from the Minister responding this morning --

:44:43. > :44:47.we get -- about the government's measures, or Treasury measures,

:44:48. > :44:50.about increasing such measures. So it is important, when we discuss

:44:51. > :44:56.about welfare matters in relation to Northern Ireland, that the special

:44:57. > :45:00.circumstances of many people, particularly in urban areas, who

:45:01. > :45:05.find themselves unemployed, maybe through no cause of their own, who

:45:06. > :45:11.are in receipt of benefits, do have that financial cushion and

:45:12. > :45:13.protection in order to live a life without any detriment. Thank you,

:45:14. > :45:23.Madam Deputy Speaker. First of all, the fact that this

:45:24. > :45:28.legislation is before the house today is an indication of the very

:45:29. > :45:35.radical steps which had to be taken to rescue the Northern Ireland

:45:36. > :45:40.assembly from financial and political collapse. And let's make

:45:41. > :45:47.no doubt about it, that was the situation which faced the Northern

:45:48. > :45:56.Ireland assembly because of the attitude which had been adopted by

:45:57. > :45:59.those who decided that, despite all their protestations, that

:46:00. > :46:02.legislation for matters which were devolved in Northern Ireland should

:46:03. > :46:07.be dealt with by the Northern Ireland assembly, took a totally

:46:08. > :46:12.irresponsible view, and blocked the ability for decisions to be made,

:46:13. > :46:20.hence plunging the assembly into a financial crisis. It was less than a

:46:21. > :46:24.year ago, Madam Deputy Speaker, that the Northern Ireland assembly were

:46:25. > :46:33.faced with a situation where the welfare reform legislation which had

:46:34. > :46:37.gone through the House of Commons here and which was a matter which

:46:38. > :46:45.had been devolved to Northern Ireland, but it was always assumed

:46:46. > :46:49.that there would be a reflection of the legislation which was passed

:46:50. > :46:52.here and the legislation which was passed in Northern Ireland, because

:46:53. > :47:03.of course the bill was being paid for through the payments which came

:47:04. > :47:08.to the Northern Ireland assembly. In other words, it was money which was

:47:09. > :47:13.paid on demand, so if unemployment went up, then we did not have

:47:14. > :47:18.defined it from the block grant. It was found simply from the Exchequer.

:47:19. > :47:22.If there were a change in a number of claimants and the area and

:47:23. > :47:28.happened to be, then the money was automatically made available. And of

:47:29. > :47:31.course, and I understand that whilst there may have been opposition to

:47:32. > :47:36.some of the measures which were undertaken in the welfare reform and

:47:37. > :47:41.indeed my party voted against a number of them, but once it went to

:47:42. > :47:43.the House of Commons, the stark choice for the people and for the

:47:44. > :47:50.assembly in Northern Ireland was either you deviate and you pay for

:47:51. > :47:59.the deviation or else you comply and ensure the payments continue to the

:48:00. > :48:06.Northern Ireland expenditure block. And that was the stark reality.

:48:07. > :48:10.There were some who, because of their sonority position and the SDLP

:48:11. > :48:15.of course led the charge in this, because of their minority position

:48:16. > :48:20.in the Northern Ireland assembly, they wanted to assure that the

:48:21. > :48:27.budget was not put into jeopardy but at the same time they could wash

:48:28. > :48:31.their hands and say the consequences of welfare reform are nothing to do

:48:32. > :48:39.with us because we voted against them. It was all those other parties

:48:40. > :48:44.who voted it through. And of course, that was the position that

:48:45. > :48:49.unfortunately we had because of the kind of political structures which

:48:50. > :48:55.are faced in Northern Ireland. The result is... I will give way. Thank

:48:56. > :48:58.you. I am very grateful to my honourable friend. The honourable

:48:59. > :49:03.lady suggested there were attempts to reach consensus between the

:49:04. > :49:08.parties in Northern Ireland. Family member recall any proposal that was

:49:09. > :49:15.able build consensus and also overcome the significant hurdle of

:49:16. > :49:23.either deviating or following? This was the problem indeed. The member

:49:24. > :49:27.perhaps did not have an opportunity to explain it. We were not delighted

:49:28. > :49:35.that the powers were taken away from us, but because of the use of the

:49:36. > :49:39.provisional concern by the SDLP and others, the ability to bring the

:49:40. > :49:45.legislation forward was blocked and we then faced the situation where we

:49:46. > :49:50.could not bring forward our own bespoke Northern Ireland legislation

:49:51. > :49:54.because the situation had been blocked. I will give way in a

:49:55. > :50:00.moment. Let us, because it is important. Rather than being

:50:01. > :50:07.delighted that Westminster to response ability, our party, the

:50:08. > :50:14.DUP, worked frantically to try and find ways of ensuring that the worst

:50:15. > :50:18.aspect of welfare reform, the ones that we believe are most damaging

:50:19. > :50:22.and could not because of some structural reasons be introduced in

:50:23. > :50:28.Northern Ireland, that they were dealt with and were dealt with by

:50:29. > :50:30.taking money from other priorities and then using that money to

:50:31. > :50:39.alleviate some of the difficulties and that was blocked, stopped dead

:50:40. > :50:43.in its tracks by the use of the addition of concern by the SDLP, so

:50:44. > :50:47.rather than being delighted that Westminster had to take over the

:50:48. > :50:51.responsibility, we worked our socks off to try to get a bespoke

:50:52. > :50:54.arrangement for Northern Ireland which could be agreed by all of the

:50:55. > :51:00.parties in Northern Ireland and would therefore have some kind of

:51:01. > :51:06.democratic authority. And it was impossible to do that because of the

:51:07. > :51:11.action of the SDLP, who protest and that they wanted the legislation

:51:12. > :51:14.dealt with in Northern Ireland, but did their hardest to make sure it

:51:15. > :51:20.could not be dealt with there and had to be dealt with the year. I

:51:21. > :51:25.thank the MLA forgiving way, just to refresh his memory for fear he and

:51:26. > :51:30.his colleagues may have forgotten that, my colleagues in the Northern

:51:31. > :51:40.Ireland Assembly proposed and all party committee as far back as

:51:41. > :51:43.February, as far back as March and April 2011, to address this

:51:44. > :51:51.particular issue, to achieve all-party consensus, whereby we

:51:52. > :51:55.could go forward as a United team to end the Treasury year in London and

:51:56. > :52:01.to achieve the best possible deal for the people of Northern Ireland.

:52:02. > :52:04.Madam Deputy Speaker, I happen to be the finance minister in Northern

:52:05. > :52:07.Ireland at the time and I can remember those discussions and there

:52:08. > :52:13.was a whole list of demands, which was that you do not introduce any of

:52:14. > :52:20.the welfare reform proposals and that we just go ahead as usual. Now,

:52:21. > :52:28.the question of course was this. Who was going to pay for it? There was a

:52:29. > :52:34.naive belief that somehow or other, if all of the parties in Northern

:52:35. > :52:38.Ireland came to ministers here in London and brought along the great

:52:39. > :52:43.and the good from Northern Ireland on the coat-tails and pleaded eight

:52:44. > :52:48.special case that somehow or other we would be exempt from the

:52:49. > :52:53.arrangements and the welfare changes that were being made in all other

:52:54. > :53:03.parts of the United Kingdom. That was a cunning plan. And I am afraid

:53:04. > :53:13.that even those who were sympathetic to the SDLP's point of view new that

:53:14. > :53:18.there was nothing cunning about it. Indeed, Baldrick could not have

:53:19. > :53:25.devised a more stupid plan, should he have done so. We tried to find

:53:26. > :53:29.ways of changing this. The only suggestion was we are opposed to the

:53:30. > :53:34.changes and therefore we don't want them for Northern Ireland. The more

:53:35. > :53:40.realistic position and a position which is now reflected actually in

:53:41. > :53:46.the legislation that we have today was let's look at what resources are

:53:47. > :53:52.available. Let's look at where the most damaging aspects of the

:53:53. > :53:57.legislation are going to be. And could we find the ability within our

:53:58. > :54:04.own resources to try and mitigate against some of those? And that is

:54:05. > :54:08.what has been done. Over the term of this assembly, the Northern Ireland

:54:09. > :54:12.assembly will from its own resources and that means making some other

:54:13. > :54:18.things in lesser priority, will seek to protect the most vulnerable by

:54:19. > :54:23.mitigation measures, whether it is with the spare room subsidy, not

:54:24. > :54:27.being enacted in Northern Ireland or people being compensated for it or

:54:28. > :54:30.the cost of work allowance and people being compensated for that

:54:31. > :54:36.and a range of other things, will find half ?1 billion over the

:54:37. > :54:42.lifetime of the current assembly to alleviate some of the impacts of the

:54:43. > :54:48.welfare reform changes, and of course those are reflected in some

:54:49. > :54:54.of the legislation that is being put before the house today. In my view,

:54:55. > :55:04.it is a great pity that there was not the majority to actually have

:55:05. > :55:07.those changes made through legislation which was passed and

:55:08. > :55:14.debated in the Northern Ireland assembly and the fact that under the

:55:15. > :55:22.agreement, which was made around this time or just later, this time

:55:23. > :55:27.last year at the Fresh Start talks, it was agreed that rather than go

:55:28. > :55:30.through the process of trying to force is through the assembly when

:55:31. > :55:35.the blocking mechanism we knew would be employed again by the SDLP and

:55:36. > :55:40.some of their allies on this, that it would have to be done here in the

:55:41. > :55:43.House of Commons. And that's where we are today. But let me does

:55:44. > :55:50.emphasise a number of points. First of all, there are changes and there

:55:51. > :55:54.are welfare changes which we supported here, because we believe

:55:55. > :55:58.that welfare did need reform. Secondly, we do believe that any

:55:59. > :56:04.welfare system ought not to be designed in a way to dissuade people

:56:05. > :56:11.from wanting to look for work. That is important. And therefore they

:56:12. > :56:16.were some of the changes that we did support. Even when the debates were

:56:17. > :56:19.here in the House of Commons will stop thirdly, there were things that

:56:20. > :56:22.we did not support but once they got through the House of Commons and we

:56:23. > :56:26.knew we could not afford them in Northern Ireland, we accepted that

:56:27. > :56:30.they should be part of the legislation. Fourthly, there were

:56:31. > :56:34.things that we believed we could change and we could find money to

:56:35. > :56:39.change, and have this book legislation for Northern Ireland and

:56:40. > :56:44.those were reflected in the proposal that we have before us. And the last

:56:45. > :56:47.point is, of course, that this will all be devolved back to Northern

:56:48. > :56:52.Ireland at the end of this year and I trust that we will have learned

:56:53. > :56:58.from the debacle which brought the assembly into disrepute, brought

:56:59. > :57:02.politics into disrepute, and in future we will learn that sometimes

:57:03. > :57:06.there are hard choices to be made and at least what we should do is be

:57:07. > :57:13.prepared to face up to those hard choices and find ways of dealing

:57:14. > :57:18.with the consequences of legislation which come from here. I will give

:57:19. > :57:21.way. But remember not honestly except Eddie Howe is that really the

:57:22. > :57:24.holder Barkley was really about him and his party not wanting to trip

:57:25. > :57:30.through the lobbies with Sinn Fein in a love in with Sinn Fein to

:57:31. > :57:37.inflict poverty on the people of Northern Ireland? This is the

:57:38. > :57:42.amazing thing. I don't know... I know there are all these attempts to

:57:43. > :57:46.rewrite history. It was a DUP minister who brought the legislation

:57:47. > :57:52.to the assembly and was prepared to walk through the lobbies and vote

:57:53. > :57:58.for it, and because there was a petition of concern introduced by

:57:59. > :58:03.the SDLP, which even a majority of members in the assembly had voted

:58:04. > :58:07.for the legislation, it would still not have become law, and once that

:58:08. > :58:12.addition of concern was triggered and the legislation was turned down,

:58:13. > :58:16.we were in a position where we couldn't have any Welfare Reform

:58:17. > :58:21.Bill. That is the truth of the matter. Not that we ran away. We

:58:22. > :58:24.faced up to it. I can remember doing interview after interview. Even

:58:25. > :58:27.faced flak from people who said you're going to hurt individuals

:58:28. > :58:30.because a part of this legislation and we argued that at least we have

:58:31. > :58:39.done something to mitigate against it. We have got the possible deal

:58:40. > :58:44.and can I do say? -- can I just say? We did get changes and we did get

:58:45. > :58:50.allowance is made by the DWP. I want to give credit to ministers in the

:58:51. > :58:53.DWP. When we were negotiating with welfare reform, they accepted that

:58:54. > :58:58.Northern Ireland could make changes, albeit that we had to accept the

:58:59. > :59:02.financial consequences of those changes, but folks ability was

:59:03. > :59:05.demonstrated by the Department for Work and Pensions. It was rejected

:59:06. > :59:14.by those who wanted to simply be able to say we are purer than

:59:15. > :59:17.everyone else on this issue and we have stood on our principles

:59:18. > :59:24.regardless of the consequences of that. We have got the legislation we

:59:25. > :59:28.have here today. I believe that those who are most vulnerable in

:59:29. > :59:30.Northern Ireland have been safeguarded by the changes which

:59:31. > :59:35.have been made by the resources which have been devoted by the

:59:36. > :59:38.Northern Ireland assembly and that has been a painful choice, because

:59:39. > :59:43.of course it means that there is less money to spend on some other

:59:44. > :59:47.things, and I think that since the member had plenty of opportunity

:59:48. > :59:51.during the debate, I have given three or four interventions already,

:59:52. > :59:55.I know that she is struggling with the case that she has and with the

:59:56. > :00:05.embarrassment of the way in which the SDLP have handled this issue,

:00:06. > :00:10.but I say this. That we have now got the piece of legislation and today I

:00:11. > :00:14.recommended it to the house. I believe it is the best deal we could

:00:15. > :00:17.have got. Unfortunately, I believe it would have been far better had it

:00:18. > :00:20.gone through the assembly but because of the assembly structures

:00:21. > :00:24.and the ability for Menorah Narathiwat parties to obstruct

:00:25. > :00:29.legislation through a position of concern, this is the only way by

:00:30. > :00:32.which we can ensure that the assembly finances were protected and

:00:33. > :00:33.indeed the political process in Northern Ireland was able to

:00:34. > :00:48.continue. Do a few of the points that are

:00:49. > :00:53.raised later, a very short speech. Firstly, on the detail of the

:00:54. > :00:56.legislation, I wanted to make it clear that the Ulster Unionist

:00:57. > :01:04.Party, for example, support the benefit cap, because it is important

:01:05. > :01:06.that we keep people in work, they are better in work than totally

:01:07. > :01:11.relying on benefits. We do support a raft of these issues are rendered.

:01:12. > :01:19.We are still concerned that the split camp levels between London of

:01:20. > :01:21.?23,000 and the rest of the UK of ?20,000 represents the most

:01:22. > :01:25.significant nonconformity of the UK's Social Security system and will

:01:26. > :01:31.need to be watched entirely closely, and obviously but as with the

:01:32. > :01:34.reserved government here at the moment. So clearly that is ready

:01:35. > :01:38.watching brief must be, but I am sure the assembly and executive will

:01:39. > :01:45.also be making representation here as well. It had originally been

:01:46. > :01:48.planned we introduce universal credit from 2017 and Northern

:01:49. > :01:53.Ireland but this has now been moved because the development work on the

:01:54. > :01:59.changes to universal credit ICT system has been delayed. The

:02:00. > :02:02.deadline still remains June 2018. As such, the local department for, to

:02:03. > :02:06.use in Northern Ireland has now found itself with the unenviable

:02:07. > :02:13.task of trying to implement one of the biggest shake-ups in a

:02:14. > :02:18.generation over less than a 12 month period. But anyway, I am sure they

:02:19. > :02:21.will manage that with the help of others. We still do not support the

:02:22. > :02:28.abolition of the work-related activity component for a new

:02:29. > :02:31.claimants from April 20 17. However, that debate has been held and the

:02:32. > :02:37.government have not taken it on board. So we must progress but what

:02:38. > :02:40.we have. We must now move on to identify all the additional support

:02:41. > :02:46.and help that claimants do to help them return to work. On the more

:02:47. > :02:55.principal issue, Madam Deputy Speaker, there is a huge frustration

:02:56. > :02:59.that this is number one, that it had to come back here to be implemented,

:03:00. > :03:03.but secondly that it is taken so long, at a huge cost to other

:03:04. > :03:06.departments, departments like the health service and education

:03:07. > :03:10.service, where there have been delays after delays. And a lot of it

:03:11. > :03:15.has been just grandstanding. I fully accept the point that some people

:03:16. > :03:19.just did not want to vote for this in the Northern Ireland Assembly and

:03:20. > :03:25.executive. That has been talked about. Sinn Fein being the biggest

:03:26. > :03:30.proponent of it, assisted by some extent by the SDLP. But this could

:03:31. > :03:34.have been resolved many, many months, in fact years, ago. On the

:03:35. > :03:38.delays have been at a huge cost to the people of Northern Ireland. The

:03:39. > :03:45.ordinary people who needed that health care and education. I support

:03:46. > :03:49.the continuance of this. There are some changes that I would have liked

:03:50. > :03:52.to have seen that did not happen, that we are asked who I am

:03:53. > :03:58.supporting the progression of it. But clearly we cannot get into this

:03:59. > :04:01.mess that we have been in for the last couple of years. Otherwise, the

:04:02. > :04:05.Northern Ireland Executive and assembly will be back to a very,

:04:06. > :04:14.very difficult position and once again at stalemate. It is a pleasure

:04:15. > :04:21.to follow the honourable gentleman. I wanted to support what my

:04:22. > :04:26.honourable friend has said very personally just as to why we are

:04:27. > :04:31.here today debating this particular statutory instrument. It is

:04:32. > :04:41.important that it is emphasised that this is not a situation that we

:04:42. > :04:45.wanted to see. It should be noted, that in Scotland, of course, with

:04:46. > :04:51.the Scottish parliament, with the extensive powers that it has does

:04:52. > :04:54.not have responsibility for welfare. This is an area where Northern

:04:55. > :05:03.Ireland took responsibility, those who negotiated the agreement decided

:05:04. > :05:10.it would be a good idea to devolve welfare to Northern Ireland, with a

:05:11. > :05:14.massive cost that comes with that, but it comes to direct payments, not

:05:15. > :05:19.out of the Northern Ireland block. So the understanding, the agreement,

:05:20. > :05:24.was, and I am a former minister of social development, back when

:05:25. > :05:27.devolution began in 1999, the understanding was parity. Because if

:05:28. > :05:33.we deviate their Northern Ireland as to pay for that out of the block

:05:34. > :05:35.grant. So areas like hospital spending, education, environment,

:05:36. > :05:44.housing all is to suffer cuts in order to pay for any deviation. Now,

:05:45. > :05:46.this comes to the crux of the arguments that took place in the

:05:47. > :05:53.Northern Ireland Assembly in recent times. Were people in certain

:05:54. > :06:00.parties, notably the SDLP, Sinn Fein and others, who wanted to say let's

:06:01. > :06:04.deviate, let's do our own thing, we are not accepting these welfare

:06:05. > :06:08.cuts, and their proposal to try to then get something for Northern

:06:09. > :06:10.Ireland was let to set up a committee, go and knock on the door

:06:11. > :06:15.of the Treasury and demand that Northern Ireland receive hundreds of

:06:16. > :06:20.millions of pounds extra, which was never going to happen. The reality

:06:21. > :06:25.is that had this measure not taken place, the fresh start negotiations

:06:26. > :06:29.which took place primarily between the DUP and Sinn Fein, not had a

:06:30. > :06:34.successful outcome then we would have had still direct rule by now

:06:35. > :06:40.from this place. That is the reality of it. And what we would have added

:06:41. > :06:42.Northern Ireland would have been welfare changes which were exactly

:06:43. > :06:46.the same as have taken place in England and Wales. There would have

:06:47. > :06:49.been none the mitigations. There would have been none of the

:06:50. > :06:53.change... I will admit. There will be none of the changes which we

:06:54. > :06:58.implemented and wanted to see implemented. So, the consequences of

:06:59. > :07:05.the approach of the members of the SDLP and others who opposed a

:07:06. > :07:11.sensible compromise was to have Phil, untrammelled welfare changes

:07:12. > :07:15.of the sort that they thought, or say, that they oppose. I thank the

:07:16. > :07:18.Member for getting way. I am wondering if you can enlighten us,

:07:19. > :07:23.because I have not got to the bottom of it, why Sinn Fein has done such a

:07:24. > :07:28.somersault on all of this? They total are posted for years. All of a

:07:29. > :07:32.sudden, they seemed to come to their senses and accept the principle of

:07:33. > :07:35.it. I am just wondering if he can shed any light. It is for Sinn Fein

:07:36. > :07:40.to explain their own positions, not for me to speak for them. Especially

:07:41. > :07:47.when they do not come to this House. They are often seen about the

:07:48. > :07:50.corridors, certain members, here to collect their allowances, political

:07:51. > :07:53.representation money, constituency allowances, that is all they did.

:07:54. > :07:56.They do not take part in any other Parliamentary processes. So I will

:07:57. > :08:01.leave it to them. But what I would say is this, that reality had to

:08:02. > :08:06.dawn on people in Northern Ireland that we were facing into the

:08:07. > :08:09.collapse of the political institutions. It is a biblically

:08:10. > :08:12.local council in England or Wales or anywhere else. "Here's Your

:08:13. > :08:18.financial settlement, here is what you have got to work with them." And

:08:19. > :08:22.the leading party and unable to say, sorry, we are not going to be able

:08:23. > :08:25.to accept that, we are going to set budgets were beyond that. We are

:08:26. > :08:28.going to just ignore the financial realities. We're not going to make

:08:29. > :08:32.any compromises which will safeguard the most vulnerable. The honourable

:08:33. > :08:36.lady had plenty of time to put her arguments. The fact that she was not

:08:37. > :08:40.able to bridge any convincing arguments to the House is her

:08:41. > :08:45.responsibility. I will set out very clearly, the fact of the matter is

:08:46. > :08:49.that financial responsibility, serious parties of government,

:08:50. > :08:54.parties that are serious about running countries and being in

:08:55. > :08:58.government, have to take difficult decisions within the financial

:08:59. > :09:02.parameters that they are set. Especially a devolved government.

:09:03. > :09:07.And if you just simply say we are not going to do that, keep we demand

:09:08. > :09:11.you give us more, have actually it leads to collapse. Let's remember

:09:12. > :09:15.that the people of Northern Ireland... Giveaway! The lady has

:09:16. > :09:19.had a opportunity to speak and I am not giving way. The reality is that

:09:20. > :09:24.the people of Northern Ireland have had their say. There was an election

:09:25. > :09:29.in May in which they delivered their verdict. On the whole social

:09:30. > :09:34.security Tobacco, in which they delivered their verdict in terms of

:09:35. > :09:38.how the DUP and other parties outperformed, and the SDLP and

:09:39. > :09:45.certain other parties had their worst result ever. In assembly

:09:46. > :09:49.elections. And the DUP was returned with one of its best result ever,

:09:50. > :09:53.back at the head of government in Northern Ireland. The people of

:09:54. > :09:59.Northern Ireland so very clearly what was going on. They recognised

:10:00. > :10:01.the parties, the politicians have to face up to their responsibilities.

:10:02. > :10:08.If they are not serious about that, they will be rejected at the polls.

:10:09. > :10:11.I also welcome the legislation and I wish the Minister in the Department

:10:12. > :10:14.for Work and Pensions, I know he has moved from the Department of

:10:15. > :10:20.Treasury, I wish him well in his work and also hope that we can come

:10:21. > :10:23.to a part where we do not need this legislation coming to the floor of

:10:24. > :10:29.the House of commons and we can get back to dealing with that in the

:10:30. > :10:34.Northern Ireland Assembly. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy Speaker. Let

:10:35. > :10:38.me conclude briefly by emphasising that this order fulfil the vital

:10:39. > :10:43.commitment made as part of the fresh start agreement. Today, we have had

:10:44. > :10:47.a robust debate on some of the historical aspect of how we got to

:10:48. > :10:51.this point. In the interests of time, I think it best I do not

:10:52. > :10:54.reflect further on that. Suffice to say, the two largest parties in the

:10:55. > :10:58.assembly signed up to the fresh start agreement, of which this

:10:59. > :11:02.legislation was a crucial part. Moreover, the assembly passed a

:11:03. > :11:06.legislative consent motion supporting the legislation to be

:11:07. > :11:14.done here in Westminster. I've read honourable member for Belfast North

:11:15. > :11:19.said, Northern Ireland has long kept parity on social security as set out

:11:20. > :11:23.in section 87 of the Northern Ireland act 1998, and restoring that

:11:24. > :11:27.parity is a crucial part of keeping the executive's finance and stable.

:11:28. > :11:34.What is in the legislation on the welfare supplementary payment will

:11:35. > :11:40.be put forward in all its detail by the executive and the assembly. In

:11:41. > :11:44.response to the specific question that the honourable lady from side

:11:45. > :11:49.to most about taxation, supplementary payments to nontaxable

:11:50. > :11:53.benefit will be nontaxable and supplementary payments to taxable

:11:54. > :11:57.benefits will be taxable. So the tax treatment will be the same as any

:11:58. > :12:01.current system. So, Madam Deputy Speaker, this order is a crucial

:12:02. > :12:04.part of delivering the start agreement. It will help build a

:12:05. > :12:09.politically and financially stable Northern Ireland and I commented to

:12:10. > :12:10.the House. The question is as on the order

:12:11. > :12:11.paper. As many as are of that opinion

:12:12. > :12:27.say "aye". Motion on the pensions act. Minister

:12:28. > :12:33.to move. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I beg is that the draft

:12:34. > :12:37.pensions act 2014 consequential amendments order 2016, which was

:12:38. > :12:44.laid before the size on the 4th of July, be approved. This order

:12:45. > :12:47.implements a small number of further minor consequential amendments in

:12:48. > :12:53.connection with the introduction of the new State Pension. It does two

:12:54. > :12:58.things. Firstly, it ensures that existing administrative arrangements

:12:59. > :13:01.which are designed to facilitate the annual operating exercise will

:13:02. > :13:06.continue to operate as they do now. And secondly giving appeal rights to

:13:07. > :13:13.decisions about national insurance credits that count for new State

:13:14. > :13:18.Pension purposes. So, if I deal with the amendments to do with up-rating

:13:19. > :13:23.first, Madam Deputy Speaker. Article two amends the Social Security

:13:24. > :13:28.Administration act 1992. The deals with alterations in the payable

:13:29. > :13:30.amount of certain income related benefits due to up-rating. That

:13:31. > :13:37.would be income support, income -based jobseeker's allowance, income

:13:38. > :13:44.related deployment and support allowance, universal credit and

:13:45. > :13:47.pension credit. These provisions allow an existing award of these

:13:48. > :13:51.benefits to be altered automatically to take account of the upgrading of

:13:52. > :13:56.another benefit in payment to the claimant or their partner or the

:13:57. > :13:59.need for a further decision by a decision maker. They can also enable

:14:00. > :14:03.the decision maker to take account of the new rates from the up-rating

:14:04. > :14:07.date when he or she is determining a new award that begins before the

:14:08. > :14:12.up-rating order is come into force, rather than having to revisit the

:14:13. > :14:16.award to apply the new rates at a later date. Article two retains

:14:17. > :14:21.long-standing administrative easements which support the annual

:14:22. > :14:25.operating exercise. So it is simply a case, Madam Deputy Speaker,

:14:26. > :14:28.delivering business as usual in a case where a person or their

:14:29. > :14:35.partner's benefiting covers the new State Pension. These amendments will

:14:36. > :14:38.therefore apply for the first time in April 2017, which, of course, is

:14:39. > :14:44.the first operating exercise for the new State Pension. Then the

:14:45. > :14:51.amendments to do with appeal rights for national insurance credits.

:14:52. > :14:55.Turning to article three, this amends schedule three to the

:14:56. > :14:59.security act 1998, which lists decisions which carry the right to

:15:00. > :15:05.appeal. The schedule already includes decisions on credits

:15:06. > :15:07.awarded under the all 1975 credit regulations, and also needs to

:15:08. > :15:14.include those provided for under part eight of the new State Pension

:15:15. > :15:16.regulations 2015. The policy intention is that decisions made in

:15:17. > :15:22.relation to these credits should have the right to appeal. This

:15:23. > :15:27.should have been an active with effect from the 6th of April 2016.

:15:28. > :15:31.And I regret to say, Madam Deputy Speaker, that it was overlooked and,

:15:32. > :15:35.as the law stands, they do not. This amendment makes good the mission and

:15:36. > :15:39.will come into force on the day after the order is made. Of course,

:15:40. > :15:42.this does mean that there is a period when decisions will be made,

:15:43. > :15:48.which it was intended should carry the right of appeal but which cannot

:15:49. > :15:53.a lot be appealed. These decisions are made by HMRC officials on the

:15:54. > :15:58.half of State for work and work and pensions and therefore my officials

:15:59. > :16:01.have been working very closely with HMRC to find a solution. That

:16:02. > :16:06.solution, Madam Deputy Speaker, involves a workaround. Once the

:16:07. > :16:09.order has come into force, any decisions that are made under the

:16:10. > :16:10.provisions in part eight of the State Pension regulation 2015 will

:16:11. > :16:27.be appealable. Birdie will be revisited in any

:16:28. > :16:31.decisions made prior. There will be no change in outcome from the

:16:32. > :16:34.original decision, hadn't been a peelable, and a fresh decision that

:16:35. > :16:38.is successfully appealed. A successful appellant will have

:16:39. > :16:42.credits awarded to them. Importantly, I can reassure the

:16:43. > :16:47.house that today no one has in practice been affected. This may

:16:48. > :16:51.seem unlikely at first glance, but there are a number of reasons for

:16:52. > :16:55.this. First, the omission can only affect certain decisions made since

:16:56. > :17:00.the 6th of April this year. Secondly, it only affects credit

:17:01. > :17:03.which a person has to apply for. The practical impact of this gap in the

:17:04. > :17:09.law relates only to decisions about credit, where a person has applied

:17:10. > :17:13.for since the 6th of April 2000 16. These include new credits which

:17:14. > :17:18.cover past periods in which a person was accompanying their Armed Forces

:17:19. > :17:22.spouse or civil partner on an overseas posting. Ordinarily,

:17:23. > :17:25.credits awarded for the tax year 2016 and 2017 will be taken into

:17:26. > :17:30.account only in the assessment of new state pension awards, which will

:17:31. > :17:32.be made after the six of April 2000 and 17. However, these new credits

:17:33. > :17:39.could affect state pension awards made since the 6th of April 2000 16.

:17:40. > :17:45.A further mitigation is that before a person can lodge an appeal, they

:17:46. > :17:48.have to ask for the decision to be reconsidered by a decision maker.

:17:49. > :17:55.That is the mandatory reconsideration. This enables the

:17:56. > :18:00.decision to be reconsidered and the facts taken into account in making

:18:01. > :18:04.it. Upon reflection, it is considered that the decision should

:18:05. > :18:10.be change, it can be changed without the claimant having to go through an

:18:11. > :18:16.appeal process. HRMC data from the last tax year tells us that there

:18:17. > :18:19.are fewer than ten cases where a decision under those 1975

:18:20. > :18:25.regulations was disputed and ended progressing to an appeal. And

:18:26. > :18:27.finally, we know that out of 324 applications for the new Armed

:18:28. > :18:31.Forces partner credits which have been refused, that is up to the 5th

:18:32. > :18:36.of September, 201 of these refusals were because of the tax year being

:18:37. > :18:39.applied for was already a qualifying year for other reasons, so the

:18:40. > :18:44.applicant wouldn't need the credit in order to establish their new

:18:45. > :18:49.state pension entitlement. It is an unfortunate situation, but I do hope

:18:50. > :18:52.I have reassured the house that even indicate where it did materialise,

:18:53. > :18:57.we have measures in place to ensure that whilst justice will be delayed,

:18:58. > :19:00.it may be denied. We are confident that no individual be disadvantaged

:19:01. > :19:07.by the oversight. Madam Deputy Speaker, I am sure you will be

:19:08. > :19:12.delighted that I can confirm that this is compatible with the European

:19:13. > :19:20.Convention of Human Rights and I commend the order to the house. The

:19:21. > :19:24.question is as on the order paper. I thank the Minister very warmly for

:19:25. > :19:28.the introduction of the order and if I could also take the opportunity to

:19:29. > :19:32.welcome him to his place? I know it is different and new and it is nice

:19:33. > :19:37.to see him there. And while I do recognise that this is principally

:19:38. > :19:42.tidying up existing legislation, and as such I will not be opposed in the

:19:43. > :19:47.order, I would like to make some comments in relation to both article

:19:48. > :19:53.two and three. Alongside the decision not to conduct an impact

:19:54. > :19:58.assessment. So relation to article two of the order, this enables the

:19:59. > :20:02.income related benefits awarded to recipients to be adjusted to account

:20:03. > :20:06.for additional income being received through an upgrading of the new

:20:07. > :20:13.state pension without requiring the Secretary of State oversight, as the

:20:14. > :20:16.gentleman has explained. This arrangement means that the old state

:20:17. > :20:20.pension is now carried forward into the new one, which is relatively

:20:21. > :20:25.uncontroversial. However, I would like to push the Minister on the

:20:26. > :20:28.specific changes in relation to entitlements for couples. The

:20:29. > :20:32.explanatory memorandum states that currently where one member of a

:20:33. > :20:36.couple has reached a qualifying age for pension credit, while the other

:20:37. > :20:42.has not, the couple can choose to claim either pension credit or the

:20:43. > :20:45.relevant working age benefit. The explanatory memorandum points out

:20:46. > :20:50.that most Jews to go for pension credit as should they choose to

:20:51. > :20:55.access the working age benefit, they will be subject to conditions which

:20:56. > :21:00.do not apply to pension credit. From 2018, it is planned to remove the

:21:01. > :21:04.option to claim pension credit, replacing it with universal credit

:21:05. > :21:09.for the next stage cobbles and making new claims. So can I what the

:21:10. > :21:15.proposed transitional arrangements are to cover these changes? Would

:21:16. > :21:18.someone covered by transitional protections who loses their

:21:19. > :21:24.entitlement to pension credit for a short period then be expected to

:21:25. > :21:30.roll into universal credit? How does the Government planted Unigate these

:21:31. > :21:34.changes, given the importance of the differences in the amount awarded of

:21:35. > :21:39.pension credit when comparing with other working age entitlements as

:21:40. > :21:44.well as the strict conditions on universal credit I am sure that the

:21:45. > :21:50.Minister will agree with me on the importance of ensuring that all

:21:51. > :21:53.those affected are well informed. Turning to Article three, this

:21:54. > :21:58.provides for a right of appeal against a decision as to whether a

:21:59. > :22:01.person is to be credited with earnings or contributions for the

:22:02. > :22:04.purposes of entitlement to the state pension. In relation to the old

:22:05. > :22:10.state pension for people who reached state pension age before the 6th of

:22:11. > :22:13.April 2016, there was already a right to appeal decisions as to

:22:14. > :22:19.whether the individual was eligible for a credits and this order, as the

:22:20. > :22:23.Minister has explained, this would apply to the new state pension. The

:22:24. > :22:30.expanded to memorandum states that this should have been taking place

:22:31. > :22:34.since 2016 was unfortunately overlooked and yes this omission is

:22:35. > :22:39.disappointing, not least for those that have been affected and while

:22:40. > :22:44.the Minister has taken some pains to explain that this hasn't affected

:22:45. > :22:47.anybody and there are measures in place to ensure that no one will

:22:48. > :22:51.lose out in relation to that, I would be grateful if you could write

:22:52. > :22:59.to me and clarify how many people have been denied a claim since the

:23:00. > :23:06.6th of April and who this might have affected, so women are for example

:23:07. > :23:09.or people from low incomes. And again, if you could confirm in

:23:10. > :23:16.writing to me with all those that have made applications for credits

:23:17. > :23:21.and were declined how this will be being resolved, I would be very

:23:22. > :23:24.grateful. I would also like to briefly touch on the related issue

:23:25. > :23:30.of take-up of national insurance credits. These cover circumstances

:23:31. > :23:35.in which people are not working and in some cases require an application

:23:36. > :23:39.to be made. In 2013, the Government acknowledged there was a low level

:23:40. > :23:42.of awareness and understanding of some national insurance credits such

:23:43. > :23:46.as carer's credit. It is said that the low take-up rates suggest that

:23:47. > :23:49.these credits work on and I quote, not achieving their stated aim of

:23:50. > :23:53.protecting the state pension position that individuals who take

:23:54. > :23:58.time out of paid employment due to caring responsibilities, and of

:23:59. > :24:01.course in many cases these are women. As the Minister will know,

:24:02. > :24:07.the Government undertook to review this system and developed a customer

:24:08. > :24:11.focused medication strategy and worked with outside agencies to

:24:12. > :24:17.encourage take-up. It said state pension statements, which

:24:18. > :24:19.individuals have to request would be the vehicle providing individuals

:24:20. > :24:22.with personalised information about their entitlement. In the debate on

:24:23. > :24:27.this order in the other place last week, the Minister of State for work

:24:28. > :24:35.reform said there were around 400,000 eligible people for carer's

:24:36. > :24:42.credit and in August, there are only 10,900 recipients, so according to

:24:43. > :24:48.my maps, it is about one in 40. And this is the very low proportion.

:24:49. > :24:51.Does the Government have plans to review its approach and look again

:24:52. > :24:55.at some of the recommendations by the work and pensions Select

:24:56. > :25:00.Committee report on allegations of the new state pension? Finally, I

:25:01. > :25:05.would like to push the Minister on the decision not to undertake an

:25:06. > :25:09.impact assessment when preparing the order. The Government argued that

:25:10. > :25:13.this order has no impact upon several organisations or the private

:25:14. > :25:18.sector. Is this not a really narrow interpretation of when you apply in

:25:19. > :25:27.impact assessment? I would be very concerned if this was the start of a

:25:28. > :25:33.precedent. And again, I would ask the Minister to look into that. I

:25:34. > :25:38.would like the Minister to reassure this side of the house that this is

:25:39. > :25:42.not setting a dangerous precedent. Again, we do know that impact

:25:43. > :25:49.assessment from this Government have tended to be rather inadequate.

:25:50. > :25:52.Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. Thank you very much, Madam Deputy

:25:53. > :25:56.Speaker, and let me welcome the Minister to his place. It is a

:25:57. > :25:59.pleasure to see him here and let me say again that those of us on our

:26:00. > :26:03.bench as you look forward to working with him to the benefit of

:26:04. > :26:08.pensioners. We on these benches welcome these measures in so far as

:26:09. > :26:11.this enables the award of certain income related benefits to be

:26:12. > :26:16.adjusted automatically when the new state pension is operated. Can I ask

:26:17. > :26:20.the Minister in bringing forward this measure where the consideration

:26:21. > :26:24.was given to the results of the EU referendum and the uncertainty that

:26:25. > :26:30.arises for the 400,000 UK pensioners living in EU countries? The house

:26:31. > :26:33.will be aware that long-standing rules enable the coordination of

:26:34. > :26:38.Social Security entitlements for people living within the EU. One

:26:39. > :26:50.result is that the UK state pension has risen in line. Elsewhere, the UK

:26:51. > :26:53.state pension is only operated if there is a reciprocal Social

:26:54. > :26:55.Security agreement requiring this. The Government could have taken the

:26:56. > :27:02.opportunity to deal with these measures to address the concerns of

:27:03. > :27:08.the 400,000 UK pensioners living in the EU. Can I ask the Minister why

:27:09. > :27:13.has this not been done? Does the Minister agree with me that those UK

:27:14. > :27:16.citizens who are residing in EU countries, who are entitled to a UK

:27:17. > :27:20.pension and annual increments as would be the case if they were

:27:21. > :27:23.residing in the UK, should have those rights protected with the

:27:24. > :27:29.Brexit vote? Can the Minister give an assurance today that this will

:27:30. > :27:33.happen? The Minister, when doing a Parliamentary answer on the issue on

:27:34. > :27:36.the 8th of July said, it will be for the next Prime Minister to determine

:27:37. > :27:39.along with the cabinet exactly the right approach to take in

:27:40. > :27:43.negotiating these provisions going forward. By the Government's guiding

:27:44. > :27:48.principle will be in ensuring the best possible outcome for the

:27:49. > :27:51.British people. Madam Deputy Speaker, given that the Prime

:27:52. > :27:55.Minister has had time to settle in, there has been ample opportunity to

:27:56. > :28:01.address this question. Can we have an answer today and remove this

:28:02. > :28:05.uncertainty for UK pensioners? Madam Deputy Speaker, prior to our entry

:28:06. > :28:10.into the UK, the UK had bilateral arrangements with a number of

:28:11. > :28:13.European countries. What will be the situation, where this was previously

:28:14. > :28:19.the case? Do they remain in force and can he reassure pensioners in

:28:20. > :28:24.those countries? Of course, what the measures in front of us today also

:28:25. > :28:30.failed to address the issue of the half a million UK pensioners living

:28:31. > :28:34.in territories where there is no annual operating. Why is the

:28:35. > :28:39.Government not bringing forward today plans to restore annual

:28:40. > :28:46.operating to all British pensioners, based on entitlement, regardless of

:28:47. > :28:51.domicile? Madam Debaty Speaker, it is morally unjust and truly unfair

:28:52. > :28:56.for the Government to strip the pensioners of their rights to equal

:28:57. > :29:00.state pension payments. There are a host of reasons why a pensioner may

:29:01. > :29:05.choose to move abroad in later life. Such as wanting to because of the

:29:06. > :29:09.family or friends. Or to enjoy a different lifestyle. It is simply

:29:10. > :29:15.wrong to punish them for making this choice. Pensioners who have paid the

:29:16. > :29:19.required national insurance conditions during their working

:29:20. > :29:22.lives, in expectation of a decent basic pension in retirement, will

:29:23. > :29:28.find themselves living on incomes that fall in real terms year on

:29:29. > :29:33.year. Payments of national insurance contributions in order to qualify

:29:34. > :29:36.for a state pension is mandatory. All recipients of the British state

:29:37. > :29:42.pensions have made these contributions, and the historically

:29:43. > :29:46.level of the pension has varied according to the level of contrition

:29:47. > :29:50.is made, it is clearly unfair to differentiate payments levels by any

:29:51. > :29:55.other criteria. Pensioners will now face ending their days in poverty

:29:56. > :29:58.because they choose to live in the wrong country. In most cases,

:29:59. > :30:03.without any knowledge of the invocations of the choice for their

:30:04. > :30:07.pension. Others are forced back into the UK, away from the family they

:30:08. > :30:13.love, just to secure an income they can retire on. All should receive

:30:14. > :30:15.their full and operated pension according to this contribution,

:30:16. > :30:20.regardless of where they choose to reside. The form would bring the UK

:30:21. > :30:23.in line with international norms, as most other developed countries do

:30:24. > :30:28.now pay their state pension equivalent in this way. We are the

:30:29. > :30:33.only all EEC the member who does not do so. Most pensioners have no idea

:30:34. > :30:40.that their pension would be frozen when they chose to emigrate. The

:30:41. > :30:46.frozen pension policy also acts as a disincentive to immigration, as the

:30:47. > :30:49.integration of people currently living in the UK who would like to

:30:50. > :30:52.emigrate and who are aware of the frozen pension policy know that they

:30:53. > :30:56.would not be able to afford to live on a state pension at its current

:30:57. > :31:00.level in the older years, by which time inflation will have decreased

:31:01. > :31:08.its value and decide not to move accordingly.

:31:09. > :31:15.There is a treatment of British pensioners and no consensus over how

:31:16. > :31:19.they are treated overseas. If you live in the US Virgin Islands, you

:31:20. > :31:23.get a feel UK State Pension, if you live in the British Virgin Islands,

:31:24. > :31:27.you do not. Overseas pensioners are entitled to fairness. The State

:31:28. > :31:39.Pension is, after all, a right, not a privilege. It is not a benefit, it

:31:40. > :31:41.is an entitlement to a pension based on paying National Insurance

:31:42. > :31:44.contributions. Madam Deputy Speaker, given the measures before us today,

:31:45. > :31:50.our provisions which support the annual exercise to upgrade payments,

:31:51. > :31:53.then I asked the Minister to clarify the government's positions on the

:31:54. > :31:59.triple lock? There have been suggestions that it may not survive.

:32:00. > :32:03.We on these benches to the support the continuation of the triple lock.

:32:04. > :32:08.It is the right thing to do to protect the interests of pensioners.

:32:09. > :32:12.While the Minister join me in the championing the triple lock and

:32:13. > :32:16.commit the government to continuing with that? Whilst we talk about

:32:17. > :32:21.pensioners' rates, equity and fairness, perhaps the Minister would

:32:22. > :32:24.like to tell us why, when we are discussing the State Pension, there

:32:25. > :32:27.is no mention of the Waspy woman and no solution to the injustice of many

:32:28. > :32:33.faith in this secondary legislation package? It is not right that women

:32:34. > :32:38.born after 1953 are having to wait so much longer than those born in

:32:39. > :32:41.previous years to collect their state pension. The government is

:32:42. > :32:45.going to have to bring forward mitigation to deal with these

:32:46. > :32:49.injustices and needs to do so quickly. Wired and omissions in this

:32:50. > :32:58.package to deal with this issue? Thank you very much. -- why are

:32:59. > :33:01.there no measures in this package? I am very grateful for the two

:33:02. > :33:05.honourable members for their contributions to this debate on this

:33:06. > :33:09.instrument today, but also for their kind words, which they appreciate. I

:33:10. > :33:13.am sure this'll be the first of many occasions which we take part such

:33:14. > :33:16.debates. If I may, very briefly, deal with the points the honourable

:33:17. > :33:23.gentleman from Ross, Skye and Lochaber made. I could take a long

:33:24. > :33:27.time to do it but affected just the very briefly that he is very aware,

:33:28. > :33:31.he has spoken many times on the frozen pensions issue, which I am

:33:32. > :33:35.aware of. But the policy on this issue is unchanged. It has been in

:33:36. > :33:40.place for almost 70 years, with all sorts of governments, and there is

:33:41. > :33:42.no plans to change it. The government complies with that legal

:33:43. > :33:45.obligations where there is reciprocal agreements with different

:33:46. > :33:51.countries, but there is no plans whatsoever, and I would not like to

:33:52. > :33:54.mislead him by saying that there are, there are no plans to change

:33:55. > :33:57.that. As far as the triple lock is concerned, he knows that the

:33:58. > :34:01.government, I would very happily send them a copy of the Conservative

:34:02. > :34:07.party manifesto if he is interested, I am sure it is still available from

:34:08. > :34:11.all good book shops! In fact, probably some bad book shops as

:34:12. > :34:14.well. But the government is committed to retaining a triple lock

:34:15. > :34:21.throughout this parliament and has said it several times in the past. I

:34:22. > :34:25.am happy to repeat it for him. That is not to ignore the honourable

:34:26. > :34:29.lady, but I will now return to the statutory instrument which she very

:34:30. > :34:37.kindly commented on. The transitional arrangements which she

:34:38. > :34:43.mentioned, to do for example with ending his choice for mixed age

:34:44. > :35:18.couples, really, the choice is ending because it is not

:35:19. > :35:20.couples, really, the choice is have been denied the right of appeal

:35:21. > :35:25.to date as result of this mission. I will check and if necessary respond

:35:26. > :35:28.to her in writing, but, to my knowledge, we do not all that

:35:29. > :35:35.information because administrative data is not originally collected by

:35:36. > :35:38.HMRC on volumes of all clinically administered credit, but I am happy

:35:39. > :35:46.to get back to her on that particular point. Very briefly,

:35:47. > :35:48.Madam Deputy Speaker, because I have had many honourable and Right

:35:49. > :35:53.Honourable members have had a lot of patience honours, but she asked, I

:35:54. > :35:57.would just like to tell her that the credit affected include applications

:35:58. > :36:02.in this case predominantly for spices and civil partners of members

:36:03. > :36:06.of the Armed Forces, as she said, but I must also say in respect of

:36:07. > :36:11.partners and recipients of child benefit, where entitlement to the

:36:12. > :36:15.credit is transferred to the applicant, for people providing care

:36:16. > :36:19.for a child under the age of 12, grandparents' credit, for being a

:36:20. > :36:25.foster parent and four persons approaching pensionable age. Welcome

:36:26. > :36:30.Madam Deputy Speaker, very briefly, I have explained as the beginning

:36:31. > :36:33.was the order covers, these consequential amendments. We have

:36:34. > :36:40.been through them both in really quite some detail. And I would like

:36:41. > :36:44.to say we have acknowledged the one that it was a gap in the law. The

:36:45. > :36:48.first time I have ever dealt with a gap in the law but there was a clear

:36:49. > :36:51.gap in the law and at least we have good mechanisms in place to make

:36:52. > :36:54.sure that nobody is disadvantaged and, fortunately, we have not yet

:36:55. > :37:00.needed to employ these because nobody has sought to appeal. I hope

:37:01. > :37:03.have provided the qualification the honourable member is required. I am

:37:04. > :37:10.very happy to speak to them separately on the occasion, should

:37:11. > :37:15.you require further clarification. I commend those order to the House.

:37:16. > :37:16.The question is as on the order paper.

:37:17. > :37:18.As many as are of that opinion say "aye".

:37:19. > :37:34.Motion number four on local government. I remember those that

:37:35. > :37:39.the Speaker has certified that this relates specifically to England at

:37:40. > :37:43.were devolved confidence, it is subject to double majority. All

:37:44. > :37:46.members of the House are able to vote in the division. Understanding

:37:47. > :37:52.order 83 Q, the motion will be agreed only if, of those voting,

:37:53. > :37:54.both the majority of all members and members representing constituencies

:37:55. > :37:59.in England vote in support of the motion. At the end, the tellers will

:38:00. > :38:02.report the results first for all members and secondly for those

:38:03. > :38:06.representing constituencies in England. Minister to move formally.

:38:07. > :38:08.The question as on the order paper. As many as are of that opinion

:38:09. > :38:10.say "aye". As many as are of that opinion

:38:11. > :39:52.say "aye". Tellers for the ayes mac. Sorry

:39:53. > :52:06.about that. Thank you. 290, ayes. Three noes. 271

:52:07. > :52:14.representing England and three noes. It is a double majority sold 290

:52:15. > :52:46.four aye, no 43. 271 from England. We now come to the opposition day in

:52:47. > :52:56.the name of the Leader of the Opposition. Mr J Deputy Speaker, I

:52:57. > :52:59.am glad to open this debate on the NHS sustainability and

:53:00. > :53:05.transformation plans. As the whole house knows, the NHS has a special

:53:06. > :53:09.place in the affections of our constituents. No other public

:53:10. > :53:16.service engages with ours all when we are at our most vulnerable.

:53:17. > :53:23.Birth, death, and illness. And the public, and obviously staff, are

:53:24. > :53:27.increasingly aware that the NHS is under severe financial pressure. And

:53:28. > :53:37.that I will return to. So it is in this context, the context of

:53:38. > :53:39.financial pressure and concern about the availability of services, that

:53:40. > :53:46.the sustainability and transformation plans are arousing

:53:47. > :53:53.concern. They sound like something anodyne and managerial, and there is

:53:54. > :53:56.undoubtedly a case for bringing health and social care stakeholders

:53:57. > :54:02.together to improve planning and coordination. But the concern is

:54:03. > :54:07.that in the outing the sustainability and transformation

:54:08. > :54:12.plans will be used to force cuts," but is, and actually make it harder

:54:13. > :54:17.for patients to access face to face consultants and above all that they

:54:18. > :54:24.opened the door to more privatisation. And I have to say

:54:25. > :54:29.that it tells the public how little the Secretary of State cares about

:54:30. > :54:35.their concerns that he is not in the chamber to either listen or respond

:54:36. > :54:41.to this debate. We know that recently he has missed all seven

:54:42. > :54:46.meetings of the NHS board, so the public is entitled to say, how much

:54:47. > :54:53.does he care about their very real concerns? I thank forgiving way. She

:54:54. > :54:55.mentioned the word cuts just now, but actually this Government is

:54:56. > :55:02.putting more money into the National Health Service, an extra ?10 billion

:55:03. > :55:06.a year and if the party opposite had no intention of making that sort of

:55:07. > :55:11.financial commitment to the NHS, as we saw in its failure to do so

:55:12. > :55:18.before the last election. The NHS was never a better funded than under

:55:19. > :55:25.the last Labour Government. And the public notice. This is why they

:55:26. > :55:36.trust us the NHS. I need to make progress. Order, order. As the

:55:37. > :55:43.honourable lady has just given weight, we do not need the cheering

:55:44. > :55:49.to go with it. I just want to check with my honourable friend, the last

:55:50. > :55:54.time I read Simon Stephens said that the SDP was designed to make up the

:55:55. > :55:59.?22 billion shortfall that the Government isn't prepared to

:56:00. > :56:01.Britain. Is that not the case? It is indeed the case that the

:56:02. > :56:06.sustainability and transformation plans, rather than just being an

:56:07. > :56:18.anodyne managerial exercise are indeed designed to make up the

:56:19. > :56:23.dissing ?22 billion. Alarming aspects of the sustainability plan

:56:24. > :56:27.has been their secrecy. England has been divided into 44 regional

:56:28. > :56:32.footprints and it is worth noting, they are called footprints to

:56:33. > :56:35.distract from the fact they are ad hoc regional structures, the exact

:56:36. > :56:40.same regional structures that the Tory health bill was supposed to

:56:41. > :56:46.sweep away. But because they are ad hoc and because they are

:56:47. > :56:51.non-statutory, they are also wholly unaccountable and in the world of

:56:52. > :57:00.the S T P, the public has no right to know. I am grateful to my

:57:01. > :57:03.honourable friend forgiving way. We have a leak of the one firm as

:57:04. > :57:06.desired and gesture, which says that there is an appetite for hospital

:57:07. > :57:11.reconfiguration as the existing setup is currently unaffordable.

:57:12. > :57:16.Given that it also says that there is almost a ?1 billion to be

:57:17. > :57:20.expected by 2021 and that the public have not yet been consulted, does

:57:21. > :57:25.she agree with me that when the public are consulted, there is going

:57:26. > :57:32.to be an absolute outcry? I believe this is a reason for the secrecy

:57:33. > :57:36.does far. The Government knows if the public understood what SDP

:57:37. > :57:42.meant, there would be an outcry. So in fact, initially... I am very

:57:43. > :57:47.grateful to the honourable lady for giving way. Would she agree with me

:57:48. > :57:51.that unless the local community are fully engaged in the process of

:57:52. > :57:55.considering how the health and care system needs to change in their

:57:56. > :58:02.area, then it is destined to failure? The process simply will not

:58:03. > :58:06.work. I am grateful. For nearly the whole time I have been in

:58:07. > :58:15.Parliament, there have been attempts to reconfigure hospitals, close A,

:58:16. > :58:19.make these changes. In London, what we have found is that where the

:58:20. > :58:24.local community doesn't take ownership of these plans, it is

:58:25. > :58:33.impossible to take them forward, and the secrecy actually runs counter to

:58:34. > :58:46.making the real reorganisations that we may have to make. So initially,

:58:47. > :58:50.the STP where not publishing their plans. No minutes of the board

:58:51. > :58:55.meetings existed. We are bound to ask, if these plans are really in

:58:56. > :59:01.the interests of patients and the public, White has everyone been so

:59:02. > :59:10.anxious that patients and the public know as little as possible? In some

:59:11. > :59:17.cases, even local GPs have not been fully involved in decision-making.

:59:18. > :59:20.Honourable members may not take it seriously, but I assured them that

:59:21. > :59:28.their constituents will. GP leaders... Order, order. Can I just

:59:29. > :59:31.suggest, it is up to the Honourable Lady whether she wishes to give way

:59:32. > :59:35.or not. Shouting and screaming will not help but the debate because

:59:36. > :59:38.members also want a year on both sides, so please, I am a charming

:59:39. > :59:40.that when the Honourable Lady wants to give way, she will do. Screaming

:59:41. > :59:57.will not help. GP leaders have said that plans to

:59:58. > :00:00.transform general practice and transform what other secondary

:00:01. > :00:04.killer into general practice are already vast and lead a only at this

:00:05. > :00:10.late stage have they been shared with GB providing representatives.

:00:11. > :00:13.The Freedom of Information requests are also uncovered the substantial

:00:14. > :00:18.goal of the private sector in formulating these plans. GE

:00:19. > :00:21.Fenimore, for example, is advising across the South and I have no doubt

:00:22. > :00:26.the work is underway for them to get larger slices of the action of the

:00:27. > :00:30.future. In the name of transparency, does she agree that all these

:00:31. > :00:34.motions should be publishing -- boards should be publishing who is

:00:35. > :00:40.on them and declare their interests? I entirely agree. All of these FTPs

:00:41. > :00:44.should be publishing who is on them, what their financial interests are

:00:45. > :00:54.and also how far advanced they are in the planning. However, thanks to

:00:55. > :01:00.the work of organisations like Open Democracy, 38 Degrees and also,

:01:01. > :01:05.frankly, leaks, the picture of what these FTPs will mean is becoming

:01:06. > :01:10.clearer. We know from the information we have been able to

:01:11. > :01:16.glean that the reality of a sustainability and transformation

:01:17. > :01:20.plans is in fact quite concerning. For instance, in the Black Country

:01:21. > :01:24.there are plans for major changes to front line services in the Midlands

:01:25. > :01:29.Metropolitan Hospital, including the closure of the hospital's A The

:01:30. > :01:33.plans also propose to close one of the two Leicester General Hospital

:01:34. > :01:39.'s as part of a planned merger, and we know that by 2021 the Health and

:01:40. > :01:45.Social Care Act system in the Black Country is projected to be 476.6

:01:46. > :01:51.million short of the funds it needs to balance its books. And members

:01:52. > :01:57.opposite me shout now, but they are going to need an answer for their

:01:58. > :02:02.constituents when the reality of some of these proposed closures

:02:03. > :02:06.becomes apparent. In Leicester, Leicestershire and Rutland there are

:02:07. > :02:12.apparently plans to reduce the number of hospitals in the area from

:02:13. > :02:16.three to two and by 2021 the Health and Social Care Act system in the

:02:17. > :02:19.area will be 700 million short of the money it needs to balance its

:02:20. > :02:26.books. And in Southwark and North East Essex the uprating plan refers

:02:27. > :02:30.to the reconfiguration of acute services that are local hospital,

:02:31. > :02:36.Colchester Hospital University trust, and the whole house knows

:02:37. > :02:40.that historically reconfiguration in the NHS has meant cuts, and there

:02:41. > :02:49.are also plans to close GP practices. While the honourable lady

:02:50. > :02:55.give way?! And the context to these plans, of which I have given an

:02:56. > :02:59.idea, is the current NHS financial crisis. Most recently we have heard

:03:00. > :03:05.from NHS providers about this financial crisis and they represent

:03:06. > :03:09.the NHS acute, ambulance community and mental health services, and what

:03:10. > :03:16.NHS providers say is that despite the best efforts of hard-working

:03:17. > :03:20.staff, including, I might say, junior doctors, hospital Accident

:03:21. > :03:25.and Emergency performance is the worst it has ever been. Waiting

:03:26. > :03:30.lists for operations, 3.9 million, I've high as they have been since

:03:31. > :03:35.December 2007 and we ended the last financial year with trusts reported

:03:36. > :03:45.the largest deficit in the history of the NHS. 2.45 billion. I have to

:03:46. > :03:50.make a little progress. So, many STPs will be facing a large

:03:51. > :03:56.financial deficit. And I say to members opposite who do not seem to

:03:57. > :04:02.take this debate seriously, when... SHOUTING

:04:03. > :04:08.When their constituents come to them asking about these cuts and

:04:09. > :04:16.closures, they will have to take it seriously then. So, many STPs will

:04:17. > :04:21.be faced with a large financial deficit, which is subject to control

:04:22. > :04:24.total staters cuts. In the case of north-west London, which does not

:04:25. > :04:30.have the largest projected deficit by any means, spending on acute care

:04:31. > :04:34.is predicted to fall in nominal terms over a six-year period,

:04:35. > :04:38.despite a population which is both increasing and ageing and cost

:04:39. > :04:45.pressures such as the sharply rising cost of drugs. STPs have made an

:04:46. > :04:54.assessment of their own deficits by 2021, researchers have just caused

:04:55. > :04:57.that approximately 29 of those 44 STPs have projected substantial

:04:58. > :05:07.deficits. I have to make some progress. Point of order. It is a

:05:08. > :05:11.requirement of the member of the size to know the difference between

:05:12. > :05:14.a debate and a monologue. Then it is for me to make that decision. I am

:05:15. > :05:18.quite happy for the shadow of Secretary of State to decide whether

:05:19. > :05:25.she wishes to give way or not. It is the opposition debate and she is

:05:26. > :05:28.leading that debate. Let's not have any more points of order because I

:05:29. > :05:32.am very worried about the numbers of last and I want to try to get

:05:33. > :05:37.everybody in. Diane Abbott. So, when the STPs talk about efficiency, they

:05:38. > :05:44.actually meant cuts. And increasingly at the heart of these

:05:45. > :05:49.are asset sales of land, buildings to cover deficits. No wonder the

:05:50. > :05:57.leader of Hammersmith and Fulham Council has said that his local STP,

:05:58. > :06:01.this is about closing hospitals and getting capital receipts. He goes

:06:02. > :06:08.on, it is a cynical rehab of earlier plans. It is about the breaking up

:06:09. > :06:11.and the selling off of the NHS. And the King 's fund has said, I have to

:06:12. > :06:16.make progress. The King 's fund has said there are some concerns that

:06:17. > :06:22.NHS leaders have focused their efforts on plans for are considering

:06:23. > :06:24.hospital services, despite the evidence that major acute

:06:25. > :06:31.reconfigurations actually rarely save money and sometimes failed to

:06:32. > :06:38.improve the quality of care. The BMA has said the same thing. And the

:06:39. > :06:43.King's fund has said the cuts under the FTPs are eye-watering, and the

:06:44. > :06:46.Health Select Committee, I am anxious to complete my remarks so

:06:47. > :06:51.you can get a chance intervene to stop and the Health Select

:06:52. > :06:56.Committee's recent reports about the impact of the 2015 spending Review

:06:57. > :07:02.stated at present the sustainability transformation fund is being used

:07:03. > :07:05.widely to suspend, in the form of logging provider deficits, rather

:07:06. > :07:11.than transforming the system at scale and pace. As the financial...

:07:12. > :07:17.If the financial situation of trust is not resolved, or worse

:07:18. > :07:22.deteriorates further, it is likely that the overwhelming majority of

:07:23. > :07:26.the FTP -- the STP fund will be continued to be used to great

:07:27. > :07:36.short-term problems, rather than support long-term solutions. Will

:07:37. > :07:44.she give way? The other... The other aspect of the STPs, in order to cut

:07:45. > :07:49.expenditure, is a combination of factors, including the use of new

:07:50. > :07:52.technology, apps, scared, patients taking more responsibility for their

:07:53. > :07:57.own health, new pathways for elderly care, increased reliance on

:07:58. > :08:01.volunteers and the downgrading of treatment by skills, responsibility

:08:02. > :08:04.and pay bands. It seems to be that these proposals, whilst having fun

:08:05. > :08:10.at merit in themselves, is delusional to imagine that they will

:08:11. > :08:16.deal with the financial black hole and the NHS. There is no evidence

:08:17. > :08:20.that in the patient population as a whole increased use of apps, skate

:08:21. > :08:26.and telemedicine can produce the efficiency is required whilst

:08:27. > :08:32.expecting units, Department and hospitals are being closed. And I

:08:33. > :08:35.would remind the House, many of them on a weekly basis speak to their

:08:36. > :08:38.constituents by surgery, the truth is that when you are speaking to

:08:39. > :08:42.people face-to-face, it is often towards the end of a conversation

:08:43. > :08:48.that they come out with what really concerns them. And my concern about

:08:49. > :08:53.the increased use of video calls is that many patients will not get that

:08:54. > :08:57.familiarity and comfortable nice to actually say at the end of the

:08:58. > :09:05.session what it is they are concerned about. Will she give way?

:09:06. > :09:08.Clearly, the plans took a great deal into preventative medicine. This

:09:09. > :09:12.would indeed have the effect of lowering demand for acute NHS care,

:09:13. > :09:16.but would also require a very substantial investment in public

:09:17. > :09:20.health programmes and this Government is just not funded. The

:09:21. > :09:25.elderly, the poor, patients for whom English is not their first language,

:09:26. > :09:31.are the least likely to use these apps and this telemedicine and

:09:32. > :09:37.Skype. -- and video calls. It is inappropriate to expect elderly

:09:38. > :09:41.patients, the biggest users of acute care, to use online video calls for

:09:42. > :09:45.any sensitive matter. And new pathways for the elderly as an idea

:09:46. > :09:50.is sufficiently vague to raise alarm bells, given the projected rise in

:09:51. > :09:53.demand for geriatric services and the continuing cuts in social care

:09:54. > :10:00.funding. SHOUTING

:10:01. > :10:02.I am very grateful to my honourable friend.

:10:03. > :10:06.She is making a very important point, because she has already

:10:07. > :10:10.touched on the financial problems in the NHS, but aligned doubles at the

:10:11. > :10:17.financial problems in adult social care. We are not going to get that

:10:18. > :10:20.truly integrated Health and Social Care Act that we all desire with

:10:21. > :10:24.these STPs been swept under the doors without people knowing

:10:25. > :10:30.precisely what it means to public services in their areas. My

:10:31. > :10:36.honourable friend makes a very important point. The danger is that

:10:37. > :10:40.in a blizzard of apps and Skype, patients will find it harder to

:10:41. > :10:43.access one-to-one care, particularly the elderly, and those that can

:10:44. > :10:48.afford it will find themselves forced into the private sector. And

:10:49. > :10:56.now, a word about the increasing private sector involvement in the

:10:57. > :11:03.NHS. It is the NHS England director of STPs, Michael McDonald, who has

:11:04. > :11:08.said they the private sector and third sector organisations an

:11:09. > :11:11.enormous amount of opportunity. We know that Price Waterhouse Coopers

:11:12. > :11:19.has been very heavily involved in the formulation of a large number of

:11:20. > :11:23.these plans and, as was referenced earlier, other companies have been

:11:24. > :11:27.heavily involved in the formulation of plant on the South West and

:11:28. > :11:30.possibly wait. The strong suspicion is that the combination of cuts,

:11:31. > :11:35.reorganisation of service on a geographical basis and the growth of

:11:36. > :11:40.hospital chains will all facilitate the greater privatisation of the

:11:41. > :11:44.NHS. SHOUTING

:11:45. > :11:52.In drawing to a close... GROANING

:11:53. > :11:54.It is absolutely right that Health and Social Care Act stakeholders

:11:55. > :11:59.should come together to plan for the future. It is absolutely wrong that

:12:00. > :12:08.social transformation plans should be hatched in secret and

:12:09. > :12:11.increasingly clear that social transformation plans may be a

:12:12. > :12:16.stalking horse for more privatisation. Members opposite may

:12:17. > :12:24.not take this issue seriously... SHOUTING

:12:25. > :12:32.Members opposite may not take this issue seriously, but, and members

:12:33. > :12:37.opposite response may be too shot, but I stress to this has the

:12:38. > :12:45.consequences of these STPs will be very material for all our

:12:46. > :12:53.constituents. And very material also for those that work in the NHS. So,

:12:54. > :12:57.I take this issue seriously. This is why we have called this debate, and

:12:58. > :13:10.I await with interest what ministers have to say. The question is as of

:13:11. > :13:14.the order paper. Thank you very much indeed, Mr Deputy Speaker. It is a

:13:15. > :13:18.pleasure to be here today. I would like to start by welcoming the

:13:19. > :13:24.honourable lady to her post. I think this is the first time she has

:13:25. > :13:27.spoken from the dispatched box in opening a debate in her present

:13:28. > :13:31.position and I am pleased also to be doing so for the first time for our

:13:32. > :13:37.site. I think she was appointed to her post about three weeks before

:13:38. > :13:40.me, so we are both on a steep learning curve, I think it would be

:13:41. > :13:44.courteously. I am very pleased that she has chosen as a object for today

:13:45. > :13:47.was my debate to discuss the sustainability and transformation

:13:48. > :13:52.plans, because it gives me the opportunity to correct some of the

:13:53. > :13:56.misconceptions that she has just revealed, and, more importantly, to

:13:57. > :14:01.inform the whole house of the status of these plans within the NHS. And I

:14:02. > :14:07.would like to start by reminding the House of the origins of these plans.

:14:08. > :14:12.The NHS's on plans for the future, set out in the five-year forward

:14:13. > :14:16.view, and endorsed by this Government, but not, as it happens,

:14:17. > :14:20.endorsed by the party opposite, recognised three great challenges

:14:21. > :14:26.facing the NHS. Health and well-being, care and quality and

:14:27. > :14:30.finance and efficiency. Will he give way? I am most grateful to him for

:14:31. > :14:33.giving way. Can I add my congratulations in saying how

:14:34. > :14:38.delighted I am to see him at the dispatch box, doing such a crucial

:14:39. > :14:41.pre-. While he is on his steep learning curve, and the Hereford

:14:42. > :14:46.Hospital and understand the difficulties that rural patients

:14:47. > :14:50.face and they would he can do to help us? I am delighted to be able

:14:51. > :14:53.to accept that invitation on behalf of my neighbour and friend. Not

:14:54. > :14:57.least because many of my constituents looked to Hereford

:14:58. > :15:01.Hospital for their acute care, and it is one of the hospital trusts in

:15:02. > :15:04.special measures, which is my specific responsibility, for I would

:15:05. > :15:11.forward to seeing him there, perhaps even during the coming recess. I

:15:12. > :15:17.will. When I am very grateful and wish the Minister all the best for

:15:18. > :15:20.his new role. With the share my concern at the fact that around the

:15:21. > :15:25.country there is evidence that in many areas mental health is

:15:26. > :15:29.peripheral to this STP process? And will he ensure that every STP plan

:15:30. > :15:32.will not be accepted unless mental health is absolutely central to what

:15:33. > :15:36.they are doing? I am grateful for that intervention,

:15:37. > :15:39.not least for the honourable member who has taken such a personal

:15:40. > :15:42.interest in the subject and I can confirm that mental health is one of

:15:43. > :15:54.the issues which will be addressed by each of the plans that are going

:15:55. > :15:56.to be taken forward. I hope that reassurance will see its way

:15:57. > :16:01.through. I am going to make a little bit of progress. The issues facing

:16:02. > :16:06.Hackney are not the same as those based in Ludlow and a single

:16:07. > :16:12.national plan would not be effective or appropriate. Indeed, the Labour

:16:13. > :16:15.Party recognises in the general election manifesto, which most

:16:16. > :16:19.people on that side of the House stood on, it said to reshape

:16:20. > :16:23.services over the next ten years, the NHS will need the freedom to

:16:24. > :16:32.collaborate, integrate and merge across organisational divides.

:16:33. > :16:42.Could the minister let me know what percentage of acute trusts are in

:16:43. > :16:52.deficit and what proportion of CCGs are in special measures? Many trusts

:16:53. > :16:54.in the last financial year were in deficit and those deficits were

:16:55. > :16:59.funded by the Department of Health. Looking forward, we are using the

:17:00. > :17:06.financial discipline of control totals not to instigate cuts but to

:17:07. > :17:12.hold the accountable managers to account for delivering within the

:17:13. > :17:16.financial envelope. This is what responsible government and

:17:17. > :17:21.administration does. We give money to public services and expect them

:17:22. > :17:24.to live within their means. This year, the NHS has received one of

:17:25. > :17:26.the largest cash settlements it is ever had. Over three times more than

:17:27. > :17:45.the rate of inflation. Can I ask my honourable friend to

:17:46. > :17:51.look very closely at STP footprints? For those of us who represent ball

:17:52. > :17:56.errors, our experience is aligning our areas with more urban centres

:17:57. > :18:01.can very often mean a constituents get a raw deal. Since my footprint

:18:02. > :18:06.includes urban areas in Bath in Swindon, I am concerned that the

:18:07. > :18:11.same thing may happen again. If I manage to get there, I will come

:18:12. > :18:18.onto the Prince and how it was that 44 areas were identified. It is

:18:19. > :18:23.clearly the case that in rural areas in Wiltshire and Shropshire, we look

:18:24. > :18:30.to urban areas to provide acute care for all of our local residents. It

:18:31. > :18:33.is appropriate that the print areas are sufficient to encompass both the

:18:34. > :18:46.acute and full range of primary sectors. Can he tell the House what

:18:47. > :18:52.is happening in relation to bed blocking and what the government is

:18:53. > :18:57.doing to deal with the impact on the community? He races a critical

:18:58. > :19:02.point. One of the real challenges facing the NHS is how to make

:19:03. > :19:09.discharge out of the acute setting right the way through the patient

:19:10. > :19:13.flow more effective. That is precisely why we are looking at

:19:14. > :19:19.bringing the local authorities into the footprints for these STPs so the

:19:20. > :19:24.entire patient pathway can be taken into account. I will give way to the

:19:25. > :19:35.honourable member for Colchester, who has been the most persistent...

:19:36. > :19:41.Chelmsford in Essex, sorry. I am very grateful to my honourable

:19:42. > :19:45.friend. So that there can be no misunderstanding, because the Shadow

:19:46. > :19:50.Secretary of State does not seem to have fully grasped the brief, will

:19:51. > :19:56.my honourable friend, with his superior knowledge, explain

:19:57. > :20:04.categorically to the House about transparency in the health service,

:20:05. > :20:09.not only regarding STPs, but other reconfigurations that always

:20:10. > :20:19.automatically has to be a public consultation with local communities

:20:20. > :20:23.before any decisions are made? My honourable friend does have a great

:20:24. > :20:31.deal of experience in this area, having served in the Department for

:20:32. > :20:39.many years. He pre-empts the remarks I am proposing to make about

:20:40. > :20:43.precisely how these STPs are subject to full and appropriate public

:20:44. > :20:52.consultation. I will now proceed with my remarks, as I have been

:20:53. > :20:58.quite generous already. As part of NHS England's annual planning round

:20:59. > :21:03.in 2015, NHS England published planning guidance in December last

:21:04. > :21:07.year, nine months ago, which called for clinical commissioning groups to

:21:08. > :21:11.come together with their providers across entire health economies to

:21:12. > :21:17.develop a collective strategy for addressing the challenges in their

:21:18. > :21:20.area. These are the sustainability and transformation plans. There are

:21:21. > :21:26.44 of these areas and the areas were agreed in March, six months ago,

:21:27. > :21:29.covering the whole of England, bringing together multiple

:21:30. > :21:33.commissioners and providers in a unique exercise in collaboration.

:21:34. > :21:40.These geographies have been determined not by central diktats

:21:41. > :21:46.but by what commissioners have felt made the most sense locally. Each

:21:47. > :21:50.area has also identified a strong senior leader who has agreed to

:21:51. > :21:55.chair and lead the STP process but half of their peers. These are well

:21:56. > :21:59.respected credible figures in their local health economies and we in NHS

:22:00. > :22:04.England are committed to supporting them, to bring people together to

:22:05. > :22:10.agree a shed plan for how best to improve and sustain health services

:22:11. > :22:14.for their local populations. Local authorities are also fully engaged

:22:15. > :22:23.in the development of these plans. In some cases, local authorities

:22:24. > :22:26.that a senior council leader is leading the STP, and this is

:22:27. > :22:36.happening in Birmingham, for example. In Merseyside and Cheshire,

:22:37. > :22:43.it is clear from the leaked document that they are looking by 2021 to

:22:44. > :22:49.save ?1 billion. In that context, does he not believe that proposals

:22:50. > :22:55.to merge hospitals and cut services in Liverpool will lead to an

:22:56. > :23:01.absolute outcry when the secret proposals that have been leaked

:23:02. > :23:06.finally get consulted upon? I think the honourable lady is leaping far

:23:07. > :23:13.too far ahead. There are no proposals at this point. I will come

:23:14. > :23:20.on to explain the state of STPs shortly. There are a number of draft

:23:21. > :23:23.ideas to try to improve the services delivered to patients. Looking to

:23:24. > :23:30.the future and the efficiencies that need to be provided, as part of the

:23:31. > :23:35.five-year forward view, the NHS leadership asks the government to

:23:36. > :23:41.fund ?1 billion of additional cash into the NHS. We provided 10

:23:42. > :23:46.billion. The Labour Party refused to provide anything like it. And in

:23:47. > :23:51.return, the NHS agreed to look for ?22 billion of efficiencies up to

:23:52. > :23:58.2020. We have assisted them to the efforts of Lord Carter, who we are

:23:59. > :24:01.asked to undertake a review. He has identified ten work streams where

:24:02. > :24:08.there are clear of efficiencies that can be found, many of which have

:24:09. > :24:12.been identified by members opposite. The Shadow spokesman herself has

:24:13. > :24:19.referred in the past the areas where there is waste in the NHS and the

:24:20. > :24:22.recent comments in the newspapers this week from the former chair the

:24:23. > :24:27.Public Accounts Committee referred to some spending practice in the NHS

:24:28. > :24:31.is absurd. It is trying to put some of these things right there have

:24:32. > :24:35.been swept under the carpet for too long. I would like to turn to the

:24:36. > :24:39.timetable on progress so far. Each area was asked to work together for

:24:40. > :24:45.the first six months to draw up their initial thinking into a first

:24:46. > :24:50.draft plan. It was published internally up to the NHS England by

:24:51. > :24:56.the end of June. These were individually reviewed by senior

:24:57. > :25:01.leaders from NHS England during July and August. Each area is now in the

:25:02. > :25:06.process of developing their STP with a view to submitting a work Duplan

:25:07. > :25:12.the NHS England in October. The plans as one would expect will vary

:25:13. > :25:15.in-depth proposals but all I expected to demonstrate a shared

:25:16. > :25:18.understanding of where an error is in relation to the three challenges

:25:19. > :25:26.set out in the five-year forward view and where they need to be by

:25:27. > :25:33.2020 -- 21. The last time I had the opportunity to give way, he was very

:25:34. > :25:36.generous. Part of the concern in my constituency about the north-west

:25:37. > :25:42.London STP relates to the fact that Harrow receives less per patient

:25:43. > :25:47.than any other part of London. We have sought for some months a

:25:48. > :25:52.meeting with a minister and I want to discuss that very issue. But the

:25:53. > :25:54.minister himself be prepared to receive a delegation from our

:25:55. > :26:04.clinical commissioning group to discuss this issue? I am grateful to

:26:05. > :26:10.him for his kind words about my willingness to take interventions

:26:11. > :26:15.from both sides of the House. Funding allocations across the NHS

:26:16. > :26:19.are a legacy of the allocation formulas set in place by the

:26:20. > :26:23.government of which he was a member during the last Labour government.

:26:24. > :26:26.There are people all across the country, not least in rural areas

:26:27. > :26:31.like Shropshire, who cannot understand why it is that the

:26:32. > :26:36.funding per capita in some parts of the country are much less generous

:26:37. > :26:39.than others. This is something I am taking an interest in. I would be

:26:40. > :26:43.willing to sit down with him and colleagues to understand what the

:26:44. > :26:47.particular circumstances are in north-west London. We will have to

:26:48. > :26:53.do that after the coming recess. I will go back to the progress made

:26:54. > :26:57.with these plans. In addition to what I have just said, they are all

:26:58. > :27:01.expected to present a strategy for their area and identified the top

:27:02. > :27:07.3-5 priorities required to deliver it. The most advanced plans, we are

:27:08. > :27:12.also expecting areas to sit at how they will deliver national

:27:13. > :27:19.priorities. They will include mental health and diabetes. Some will build

:27:20. > :27:25.on the early work which has been developing better coordinated models

:27:26. > :27:28.over the past year or so. These plans for the NHS is a unique

:27:29. > :27:34.opportunity to think strategically. For the first time, the NHS is

:27:35. > :27:37.planning across multiple organisations. Commissioners and

:27:38. > :27:42.providers with local authorities to address the health needs of Mary and

:27:43. > :27:47.the people it serves. Also for the first time, the NHS is producing

:27:48. > :27:51.multi-year plans, showing clearly how local services will develop over

:27:52. > :27:56.the next five years to deliver real improvements in patient care and

:27:57. > :28:01.better efficiency to ensure continued sustainability of the NHS

:28:02. > :28:07.to cope with rising demand from our ageing population. This is leading

:28:08. > :28:12.some STPs to face up to tough choices. Choices that may have been

:28:13. > :28:17.postponed because they were always too hard or relied on individual

:28:18. > :28:21.organisations operating on their own to shoulder the responsibility

:28:22. > :28:28.rather than share it across the geography or whole health care

:28:29. > :28:32.economy. Does he recognise the concerns in constituencies like

:28:33. > :28:38.mine, a border constituency with Wales, which suffers from pressures

:28:39. > :28:42.due to numerous closures of hospitals in Wales by the Welsh

:28:43. > :28:52.Labour government and the pressures that places on the Cheshire and

:28:53. > :28:57.Merseyside? I share a border with Wales like she does so I am acutely

:28:58. > :29:02.aware that patients in Wales have to wait longer, get less good access to

:29:03. > :29:06.treatment in Wales and England, and many of them are looking to English

:29:07. > :29:11.hospitals to provide the service that is not available in Wales in

:29:12. > :29:14.part because of a conscious political decision for less funding

:29:15. > :29:24.to go to the health service in Wales by the worst government. I met a

:29:25. > :29:28.young surgeon last week. She was caring. She was so dedicated that it

:29:29. > :29:34.made me proud that she worked for the NHS but I was not proud to hear

:29:35. > :29:40.about the facility she has to work in following the cancellation of a

:29:41. > :29:43.hospital project in 2010. They can have as many plans as they like but

:29:44. > :29:49.if you do not have the infrastructure, he cannot deliver

:29:50. > :29:53.the care that some of our communities require. There is

:29:54. > :29:58.undoubted pressure on infrastructure is there is an technology, and as

:29:59. > :30:02.technology improves and becomes available to the NHS, it provides

:30:03. > :30:08.opportunity for much more care to be undertaken closer to the patient,

:30:09. > :30:15.increasingly in or near their home. That will have consequences for the

:30:16. > :30:21.infrastructure we have. Some of that will lead the reconfiguration of

:30:22. > :30:25.existing hospital services. There is a programme of relegation against

:30:26. > :30:28.our hospitals and cannot get everywhere at the same time. I

:30:29. > :30:33.apologise to the honourable gentleman for not leaving a shiny

:30:34. > :30:34.new hospital like you would like but there is a building programme which

:30:35. > :30:46.will continue in the future. As you are aware, we have particular

:30:47. > :30:51.issues in Cumbria which has led to as having the success regime, we are

:30:52. > :30:59.about to go to consultation on that in key areas like maternity, AMD. My

:31:00. > :31:05.constituencies are concerned about how this is going to fit in with the

:31:06. > :31:13.success regime. Would it not be a challenge and confusing? This will

:31:14. > :31:19.become subsumed within the STP but the attractions, the advantages for

:31:20. > :31:25.those areas in the success regime are that it means that the areas

:31:26. > :31:31.have been working together for longer than the pure STP areas and

:31:32. > :31:34.will have benefit with the maturity of their plan. I'm not going to take

:31:35. > :31:43.any more interventions because I have to wind up shortly. The

:31:44. > :31:48.honourable lady has raised in her remarks are some concerns I'd like

:31:49. > :31:55.to address before I wind up. She has said that the STPs will result in

:31:56. > :31:59.significant cuts and changes to front line services. For all her

:32:00. > :32:04.protestations, these plans are not about cuts. They are about local

:32:05. > :32:09.areas including provision is and providers coming together to improve

:32:10. > :32:13.services in the medium and long-term. Some areas are taking

:32:14. > :32:19.difficult decisions to tackle long-term problems but this will be

:32:20. > :32:25.subject to rigorous and national security. I can categorically assure

:32:26. > :32:33.the lady that no changes will occur without consultation and in the

:32:34. > :32:38.normal process of reconfiguration. She has accused the process of

:32:39. > :32:43.lacking transparency and time. Planning within the NHS is not new.

:32:44. > :32:53.There is an annual planning round which culminates in December each

:32:54. > :32:57.year. Since then, local STP leads have been engaging locally as they

:32:58. > :33:03.deemed appropriate. There has been no secret. For the first time in

:33:04. > :33:06.years, different NHS bodies with local authorities have been working

:33:07. > :33:12.collaboratively to develop these plans. The 44 local areas are

:33:13. > :33:16.submitting plans to NHS England for consideration in October. The NHS

:33:17. > :33:21.will scrutinise these plans and make recommendations over which to take

:33:22. > :33:26.forward and prioritise for formal consultation which will follow.

:33:27. > :33:30.Implementation will take place once the feedback has been assessed so

:33:31. > :33:38.that from early next year, this implementation will begin with the

:33:39. > :33:41.time is dependent on each individual area's specific proposal. The

:33:42. > :33:47.honourable lady has claimed that it does not allow for sufficient

:33:48. > :33:51.parliamentary engagement. The proposals remain at draft stage but

:33:52. > :33:54.the local authorities are responsible for in gauge went with

:33:55. > :33:59.local stakeholders when they are ready and proposed changes will be

:34:00. > :34:03.subject to local consultation. Many have engaged with the groups of

:34:04. > :34:09.clinicians and other stakeholders in their areas already in providing

:34:10. > :34:12.draft plans. Local areas will be launching public consultation

:34:13. > :34:17.shortly once updated plans have been scrutinised by NHS England and we

:34:18. > :34:20.would welcome public involvement and from members of Parliament and I

:34:21. > :34:24.have no doubt there will be opportunities in coming months to

:34:25. > :34:29.continue these discussants in this house and in the Department because

:34:30. > :34:34.I will be willing to talk to members of Parliament who are concerned

:34:35. > :34:38.about activities in their area. The honourable lady has called on the

:34:39. > :34:42.government to publish the plans. These plans are being planned by

:34:43. > :34:47.local areas within the NHS and they will be subject to further

:34:48. > :34:51.consultation in due course. She has raised concerns about the use of

:34:52. > :34:57.private sectors advisers in developing STPs. I'd like to point

:34:58. > :35:06.out very gently to her if I made, the irony that 38 degrees who she

:35:07. > :35:10.relied upon for much of her advice in this debate rely on a

:35:11. > :35:17.private-sector advisory group themselves, whose report I happen to

:35:18. > :35:23.have. A recognised private sector adviser within the NHS. It is a bit

:35:24. > :35:35.rich to come to the house arguing against the use of the private

:35:36. > :35:40.sector when she does so herself. I'm sorry that it is such an acrimonious

:35:41. > :35:47.debate today because I welcome the principle of the sustainability of

:35:48. > :35:51.the transformation plans. These are key opportunity to reverse the

:35:52. > :35:57.fragmentation and reintegrate the NHS but you actually have to get it

:35:58. > :36:01.right so to turn this into just a game of moving the deck chairs on

:36:02. > :36:07.the Titanic would be really an opportunity that we would regret in

:36:08. > :36:12.a few years' time. This is a place -based approach and that is similar

:36:13. > :36:16.to what we have in Scotland so I absolutely welcome it but the places

:36:17. > :36:20.have to be right. They need to cover the whole population and the

:36:21. > :36:25.geography as to make sense. That is in the relationships of the

:36:26. > :36:30.organisations that are there but you have to think of things like public

:36:31. > :36:34.transport. There is no point plonking a community in an STP that

:36:35. > :36:39.they are completely unconnected to. How these places are designed is

:36:40. > :36:45.really important. The partners that are in them. All of this should be

:36:46. > :36:50.about integration and reintegration from acute care, primary care and

:36:51. > :36:54.local authority. So that we have single pathways and wraparound

:36:55. > :37:01.patient centred care. I will give way. I have some sympathy with what

:37:02. > :37:07.she is saying but does she agree with me that integration is not

:37:08. > :37:12.going to happen in any one part of those partnerships are severely

:37:13. > :37:15.underfunded. She mentions local authorities. Many of the pressures

:37:16. > :37:21.in the NHS today are solely as the root cause of the severe

:37:22. > :37:28.underfunding of adult social care. Don't we make sure that these

:37:29. > :37:34.finances are in place for STP is to work. I totally agree. That is what

:37:35. > :37:44.I was coming on to. It is not just funding. It is the whole model. The

:37:45. > :37:48.tariff model rewards hospitals for doing minor things and punishes them

:37:49. > :37:55.for doing more complex things. Just working harder and doing more makes

:37:56. > :37:59.the deficit grow. The problem we have is that we have all sorts of

:38:00. > :38:04.perverse incentives in the system that mean organisations will still

:38:05. > :38:09.be looking out for their budget and their survival instead of working

:38:10. > :38:14.together. What has happened in Scotland, we got rid of hospital

:38:15. > :38:19.trusts, Primary Care Trusts, since 20 14th we've had integrated joint

:38:20. > :38:22.wards but they were handed joint funding that came from health and

:38:23. > :38:30.local authority which meant the whole business of your purse or my

:38:31. > :38:36.purse disappeared. Then you can look what is the best way to make the

:38:37. > :38:42.pathways smooth. Getting a shared vision of what it is you are trying

:38:43. > :38:47.to get is crucial. It means stakeholders, both those who work in

:38:48. > :38:54.the NHS and those who use it, need to believe in where you are trying

:38:55. > :38:57.to get to. Public conversations and involvement, not consulting on

:38:58. > :39:01.something that is already signed off but actually involving their ideas

:39:02. > :39:05.in what they would like it to be would make it much stronger. I think

:39:06. > :39:10.there are deep-seated changes that need to be made to the system as

:39:11. > :39:17.opposed to only talking about the money for the deficits. It's clear,

:39:18. > :39:23.already on the health committee we've been talking about it for

:39:24. > :39:31.ages, the phrase sustainability has been short hand for paying off the

:39:32. > :39:37.deficit. The 2.1 billion for transformation, 1.8 billion is in

:39:38. > :39:42.earmarked for deficit. At least 300 million to change an entire system.

:39:43. > :39:46.I know we talk about money a lot in the here and it is important but we

:39:47. > :39:54.have far vigour sustainability issues than the 2.5 billion deficit

:39:55. > :39:59.in the NHS. We have an ageing population. They are carrying more

:40:00. > :40:04.and more chronic illnesses. That means more demand, more complexity

:40:05. > :40:08.and more convocations. That is one of the things that is actually

:40:09. > :40:13.pushing the NHS to fall over. On the other side of that, we have a

:40:14. > :40:20.shortage in our workforce. We don't have enough nurses or doctors,

:40:21. > :40:27.including specialists, consultants, A and general practitioners.

:40:28. > :40:32.Although the advice has been very much that finances were third and

:40:33. > :40:37.prevention and quality of care was meant to come one and two in

:40:38. > :40:41.delivering the five-year forward, finances seems to be trumping

:40:42. > :40:47.everything else. It's absolutely correct that health is no longer

:40:48. > :40:51.buildings, there are lots of methods of health that are bringing care

:40:52. > :40:55.closer to patients and some things that are taking patients further

:40:56. > :41:01.away from their home. We have hyper acute stroke units, urgent cardiac

:41:02. > :41:06.units, where they get an angiogram and angioplasty that prevent heart

:41:07. > :41:11.failure in future, but you can't start there. You can't shut

:41:12. > :41:15.hospitals and units to free up money to do better things. You have to

:41:16. > :41:20.actually go for the transformation and do the better things first. To

:41:21. > :41:25.design the service around the pathways we need. That wraparound

:41:26. > :41:30.care for patients. Then work backwards. If more health and

:41:31. > :41:34.treatment is coming closer to the patient, then we will see, I don't

:41:35. > :41:37.go to the hospital very often and I want that hospital to have

:41:38. > :41:44.everything it needs when I need it. Then you can look at the estate and

:41:45. > :41:48.see, do we have the right units and in the right place? What concerns me

:41:49. > :41:52.is this seems to be the other way around. We are starting with

:41:53. > :42:00.hospitals which often is a very expensive thing to do and hoping it

:42:01. > :42:08.will deliver everything else. Thank you for giving way. I thank the

:42:09. > :42:16.honourable lady. Out of the original sum of money allocated for this

:42:17. > :42:21.transformation process the vast majority seems to be going to prop

:42:22. > :42:28.up acute trusts and very little is available for transformation. As I

:42:29. > :42:34.said, it only leaves 300 million. You cannot transform a system on the

:42:35. > :42:40.scale that is being considered on ?300 million. The guidance talks

:42:41. > :42:45.about prevention, tackling health inequalities, focusing on health and

:42:46. > :42:50.well-being and by that I mean physical and mental well-being. We

:42:51. > :42:55.need to be strengthening public health. Something else that has been

:42:56. > :42:59.cut. We need to look at the quality of health and care right across in

:43:00. > :43:02.social care. We must fund social care because it can make a

:43:03. > :43:08.difference to things like delayed discharges. We are not even three

:43:09. > :43:13.years down the integration in Scotland, only to a half years, and

:43:14. > :43:20.yet delayed discharges has dropped 9% and, yet, the last time the

:43:21. > :43:25.Secretary of State was in select committee, it has gone up 32%.

:43:26. > :43:29.Literally just moving things around and allowing one part of the system

:43:30. > :43:36.to fail will mean that the entire system will fail. I always listen

:43:37. > :43:39.with care to what the honourable lady has to say and agree with a

:43:40. > :43:45.great deal of it. Would she agree that part of the problem with

:43:46. > :43:50.delayed discharges is a retrenchment of community hospitals and their

:43:51. > :43:54.beds which have provided step up, step-down care into needed beds and

:43:55. > :43:57.they are unfortunately available which means inevitably hospital

:43:58. > :44:06.discharges are delayed with all that distress it causes? I totally agree.

:44:07. > :44:11.It is care in the home for those who can go to that. Convalescence for

:44:12. > :44:17.those who require it. In my health board, we have rebuilt the three

:44:18. > :44:22.cottage hospitals. They are now modern state-of-the-art small units

:44:23. > :44:26.that means our population have less to travel. Older people will not

:44:27. > :44:30.need to come to hospital. We are still in that transition. They are

:44:31. > :44:34.not doing everything they have potential for but certainly in

:44:35. > :44:38.Scotland, indeed, we are and were all population, but there is more

:44:39. > :44:41.recognition that you need intermediate care between people

:44:42. > :44:49.being at home and looked after by their GP and ending up in a very

:44:50. > :44:55.expensive acute unit. It is not just finance. People do not want to be in

:44:56. > :45:01.hospital. These levels of care are crucial. It's important that this

:45:02. > :45:09.grows out of the ST Petes. I see that this is a crucial opportunity

:45:10. > :45:11.that can't be missed. There is a startling fact about underfunding of

:45:12. > :45:19.social care that ministers can't get away from. We've heard today of a

:45:20. > :45:27.case of a care worker suing the contract they work for, only paid ?3

:45:28. > :45:31.27 per hour, how can somebody be discharged from hospital adequately

:45:32. > :45:35.when that is the domiciliary care waiting for them? It was interesting

:45:36. > :45:41.to hear the former care Minister say that we have not got the cost of

:45:42. > :45:45.adult social care sorted out. I totally agree. I'm not sure if the

:45:46. > :45:50.honourable lady took part in the carers debate that we had not long

:45:51. > :45:55.ago. I made the point that unless we develop social care as a profession,

:45:56. > :46:02.then all others face a fairly miserable time in old age. Nursing

:46:03. > :46:06.is a profession that is recognised and valued. Caring for our ill and

:46:07. > :46:11.elderly population should also be. To give them time to do their job

:46:12. > :46:14.and to pay them and give them a career development structure that

:46:15. > :46:19.means we bring the best people up and running teams.

:46:20. > :46:27.I was disappointed at the aggression on both sides. I know it is always a

:46:28. > :46:33.good tennis match for point-scoring but the development of the STPs is

:46:34. > :46:38.literally an opportunity where there would be things everyone in this

:46:39. > :46:42.House would agree with but if this is just a figleaf to pretend that

:46:43. > :46:46.something is being done, the NHS will suffer and we will be the

:46:47. > :46:54.generation of politicians who move the deck chairs on the Titanic.

:46:55. > :46:59.Pleasure to follow my colleague on the health committee. I absolutely

:47:00. > :47:04.agree that we should see this as an opportunity to move away from the

:47:05. > :47:09.fragmented system where people are moving the commission and provide

:47:10. > :47:14.care in isolated silence the one that looks across the whole of the

:47:15. > :47:19.system, across geographical areas, where we can move to a system where

:47:20. > :47:25.we have a truly integrated approach between health and social care. But

:47:26. > :47:29.to do that, we need to see local authorities involved in STPs as well

:47:30. > :47:35.as the health system. We need to also involve local people. The

:47:36. > :47:39.lesson we learned from every major reorganisation has been there if you

:47:40. > :47:47.take local people with you on the journey, they are much more likely

:47:48. > :47:49.to be successful. We should not see genuine local consultation and

:47:50. > :47:53.engagement as an inconvenience but something that actually improves the

:47:54. > :48:01.eventual plans. I think it is a real shame that this debate has devolved

:48:02. > :48:06.into secret NHS plans and now NHS England has the that and say, how

:48:07. > :48:10.could they have been better at engaging local communities and those

:48:11. > :48:14.who represent them? It is a great shame that members across this House

:48:15. > :48:19.were not able to see the draft plans until they were leaked to the press.

:48:20. > :48:27.That is not the right way forward for any genuine engagement. Would

:48:28. > :48:30.she not agree with me that if staff, nurses, doctors, physios,

:48:31. > :48:40.pharmacists, had been involved from the start of the process, that would

:48:41. > :48:47.have helped staff morale in the NHS? I absolutely agree with my

:48:48. > :48:49.honourable friend. It is about local communities and their

:48:50. > :48:54.representatives. Public meetings are important but so are involving

:48:55. > :48:58.public bodies like health watch, making sure underrepresented groups

:48:59. > :49:02.are involved. The honourable gentleman opposite talked about the

:49:03. > :49:06.need to involve mental health services in these plans. It is very

:49:07. > :49:09.important we make sure the underrepresented groups are

:49:10. > :49:16.involved, including those who use mental health services. The

:49:17. > :49:21.honourable lady, with the lifetime of experience in the NHS, is

:49:22. > :49:26.absolutely right about the importance of consultation. Dishy

:49:27. > :49:32.therefore understand the concern expressed by both the staff at the

:49:33. > :49:37.Dove sexual health centre in one of the poorest constituencies in

:49:38. > :49:41.England and the 2000 patients, that none of them have been consulted,

:49:42. > :49:47.neither have any of the stakeholders, over a proposal to

:49:48. > :49:52.close a vital facility? I thank the honourable gentleman for his

:49:53. > :49:56.intervention. The plans you produce at the end of the day will be better

:49:57. > :49:59.if you involve those who are both using services, those who are

:50:00. > :50:06.providing them as well as those commissioning them as you go along

:50:07. > :50:10.rather than presenting a freight company because then it becomes a

:50:11. > :50:18.more binary choice rather than one where people can make suggestions to

:50:19. > :50:24.improve plans in development. I know that Scotland is a lot easier to get

:50:25. > :50:29.round in population or the size and transport is not that easy, but one

:50:30. > :50:33.of the mechanisms the Scottish Government use is what they call a

:50:34. > :50:38.national conversation, and that is literally that the ministerial team

:50:39. > :50:43.go walkabout and have meetings to hear directly before anything goes

:50:44. > :50:51.on paper. I would like if I made to make progress. If we get too caught

:50:52. > :50:56.up in the process of consultation, we will miss some very serious

:50:57. > :51:03.underlying hurdles that are in the way of STPs achieving their aims.

:51:04. > :51:09.Chief among those is the issue of finance. The NHS is in its seventh

:51:10. > :51:15.year now of a historic level of austerity, the average increase of

:51:16. > :51:19.1.1% uplift in funding to the NHS over the last six years is an

:51:20. > :51:22.extraordinary challenge when we look at that and the context of

:51:23. > :51:27.increasing demand. It is a good thing that we are living longer but

:51:28. > :51:31.we are living longer with more complex conditions, more expensive

:51:32. > :51:35.treatments available, to tackle those. We need to be clear that

:51:36. > :51:41.because of that, divide is opening up, even though the settlement for

:51:42. > :51:47.health has been generous in relation to other government departments. It

:51:48. > :51:55.means that a significant gap is opening up in health but even worse

:51:56. > :51:59.in social care. We know from figures that 400,000 fewer people are in

:52:00. > :52:08.receipt of social care packages in 2015-16 than they were in 2009-10.

:52:09. > :52:12.Not only fewer people are receiving social care packages, but the

:52:13. > :52:18.packages they are receiving less. Very much of what we see around the

:52:19. > :52:23.STPs is about transferring care into the community. We need to be

:52:24. > :52:28.absolutely clear that we need to make sure that the funding is there

:52:29. > :52:36.to provide the social care packages but also that we have the workforce

:52:37. > :52:41.to deliver them. In the area I represent, the proposals are too

:52:42. > :52:47.close two community hospitals used by my constituents. I know as a

:52:48. > :52:51.former rollable GP just how important these facilities at a

:52:52. > :52:56.local people. These are the places that are not only special to people

:52:57. > :52:59.for the step down, step up care that the honourable lady opposite

:53:00. > :53:04.referred to. These are places that people like to be at the end of

:53:05. > :53:09.their lives, providing personal care to people and allowing people,

:53:10. > :53:14.particularly in rural areas who are doubly disadvantaged by not being

:53:15. > :53:27.able to travel to a larger centres, the opportunity to be treated closer

:53:28. > :53:31.to home. In my constituency, a hospital has been adopted by the

:53:32. > :53:36.local community and is continuing to provide that step up, step down care

:53:37. > :53:41.without being part of the NHS. I wonder whether she would be

:53:42. > :53:46.interested in meeting some of the trustees of the hospital? It may

:53:47. > :53:49.provide some hope for the future as a way that communities can come

:53:50. > :53:57.together and support their local assets. I have been to visit on many

:53:58. > :54:01.occasions community hospitals to hear from community hospitals around

:54:02. > :54:08.the country and I will continue to do so. I would like to commend the

:54:09. > :54:13.very valuable role they play. Would she agree with me the community

:54:14. > :54:18.hospitals can also keep the bean counters happy since, if you get the

:54:19. > :54:21.case measure right, it can treat people in Community Hospital beds

:54:22. > :54:27.much more affordably than in an acute unit which is extraordinary

:54:28. > :54:33.costly? You will also give patients what they would like, which is care

:54:34. > :54:37.close to their homes, as my constituents will attest, where we

:54:38. > :54:42.still have Community Hospital beds and I know my honourable friend

:54:43. > :54:47.would say the same. I thank my honourable friend. Across this

:54:48. > :54:50.House, we are all aware of the value of community hospitals to our

:54:51. > :54:55.constituents to take that back a step further, I would say that the

:54:56. > :54:59.best bet for any patient is their own bed, provided they can be given

:55:00. > :55:04.the right package of care close to home. We know that there are many

:55:05. > :55:09.people, even within Community Hospital beds, that do not need to

:55:10. > :55:15.be there. They are there because they want the right social care

:55:16. > :55:21.package to enable them to be a home. What we should do is be realistic.

:55:22. > :55:26.Of the financial challenge they also face and the cost of providing those

:55:27. > :55:34.services. This is a huge challenge for them. In my area alone, the STP

:55:35. > :55:40.is facing a ?572 million shortfall by 2021 if they do not take any

:55:41. > :55:46.action. I can understand why they will look at the relative cost of

:55:47. > :55:51.providing care to people both in acute hospitals, community hospitals

:55:52. > :55:56.and at home and make an argument that sounds very reasonable about

:55:57. > :56:00.how you could care much better for a larger number of people if that

:56:01. > :56:06.setting was at home. But go back to the point that my friend, the member

:56:07. > :56:12.for Central Ayrshire made. You need to have access to the transformation

:56:13. > :56:16.part of the fund to put those services in place. Very often, to

:56:17. > :56:21.build the infrastructure that we need, or example, when I look at

:56:22. > :56:27.Dartmouth, I look at the possibility of providing more care closer to

:56:28. > :56:36.home within a community hub. But that will take having upfront funds

:56:37. > :56:40.to build and develop a new centre back and actually allow people to

:56:41. > :56:46.develop the work force and provide more services closer to home. The

:56:47. > :56:50.trouble is what we often see is the closure of a much loved facility

:56:51. > :56:59.without the new service in place and that is what I would like to see as

:57:00. > :57:04.plans progress, a genuine focus on the opportunities we can have to

:57:05. > :57:09.provide more care closer to home. I do fear that we will miss that

:57:10. > :57:18.opportunity because, as we have already heard, ?1.8 billion of the

:57:19. > :57:28.?2.1 billion fund is going towards the sustainability bit and only ?300

:57:29. > :57:34.million is left nationally to put in place all these plans. We also know

:57:35. > :57:39.that part of the way the government has managed to fulfil its promise to

:57:40. > :57:44.NHS England in terms of the funding they asked for has been to take

:57:45. > :57:52.funding out of capital budgets because these are essentially flat

:57:53. > :57:56.cash, but also to take money out of health education England budgets and

:57:57. > :58:01.public budgets. It does concern me that many of the principles behind

:58:02. > :58:06.the sustainability and transformation plans are put at risk

:58:07. > :58:12.by other parts of the system. We have already heard the point about

:58:13. > :58:16.prevention. It is central to the achievements of the sustainability

:58:17. > :58:21.and transformation plans, the prevention peas, the public health

:58:22. > :58:25.peace. It is a great shame the Public health budgets have been

:58:26. > :58:28.squeezed in order for them to achieve those aims. I know there are

:58:29. > :58:36.many members wishing to speak so I will move on and make asks of the

:58:37. > :58:41.minister in moving forward. There is more that the government can do. We

:58:42. > :58:50.were very disappointed on the health committee that none of the witnesses

:58:51. > :58:59.that came for us from NHS England, NHS improvement or the Department of

:59:00. > :59:06.Health were able to set out the impact of cuts to social care on

:59:07. > :59:11.health care. We really do need to do much better quantifying the cost of

:59:12. > :59:17.the NHS because of cuts to the NHS budget. I think that the minister

:59:18. > :59:21.needs to take the long view of prevention and help the service by

:59:22. > :59:25.implementing policies that could help local authorities to make

:59:26. > :59:30.changes. For example, I would suggest making a hell of a material

:59:31. > :59:39.consideration in planning and licensing. We need a much greater

:59:40. > :59:42.focus on workforce because the sustainability and transformation

:59:43. > :59:47.plans cannot achieve their aims if there is not the workforce in place

:59:48. > :59:52.to achieve it. Finally, I would ask the Minister if you would kindly

:59:53. > :59:57.visit my area to look at the proposals within the sustainability

:59:58. > :00:05.and transformation plans in South Devon, to look at the opportunities

:00:06. > :00:18.and how we could achieve them. Some people will not get in.

:00:19. > :00:23.I am grateful for the opportunity to speak in this debate today.

:00:24. > :00:28.Sustainability and transformation plans, should the public be

:00:29. > :00:35.concerned, and are they good, bad or a mixture of both? As we have heard,

:00:36. > :00:39.STPs have been drawn up in 44 areas in England by a range of people

:00:40. > :00:44.involved in the running of the NHS and local government. As far as I

:00:45. > :00:49.can work out, they have come about because NHS England could see that

:00:50. > :00:53.in the chaos following the last government's health and social care

:00:54. > :00:55.packed, there was no obvious body responsible for thinking about how

:00:56. > :01:10.best to NHS staff at local and governmental

:01:11. > :01:18.levels were charged with discussing the best way to meet those needs and

:01:19. > :01:21.developing ideas as to how those needs might be better met within

:01:22. > :01:30.available resources. So far, so good. There are three big problems.

:01:31. > :01:34.First, the current financial pressures on the NHS means these

:01:35. > :01:41.plans are likely to be all about sustainability and not

:01:42. > :01:46.transformation. Second, this is a standardised process is to define

:01:47. > :01:55.and drive change running the risk of good proposals being lumped in with

:01:56. > :01:59.bad ones and some plans simply focusing on the achievable as

:02:00. > :02:07.opposed to the necessary and most desirable. Third, these plans are

:02:08. > :02:11.being developed when there is huge public cynicism about the motives of

:02:12. > :02:16.a Tory government when it comes to change in the NHS. If you want to

:02:17. > :02:21.deliver change, the debate with the public needs to start in the right

:02:22. > :02:26.place, not behind closed doors, not using jargon that no one

:02:27. > :02:32.understands. It needs to be focused on patients and their families and

:02:33. > :02:38.not accountants and spreadsheets. I think most people understand that

:02:39. > :02:43.the NHS can't be preserved in aspic. They understand that compared to the

:02:44. > :02:48.1950s we now use the NHS in a very different way. At the moment, they

:02:49. > :02:53.simply see an NHS under enormous pressure. They are waiting longer

:02:54. > :03:05.for an ambulance to see a GP, to be treated in a A, people are on the

:03:06. > :03:13.streets in protest. When MPs and their nature leaders talk about

:03:14. > :03:18.transformation they are dubious. For sustainability, they read cuts and

:03:19. > :03:22.in some cases they will be right. Cutting staff, closing services,

:03:23. > :03:27.restricting access to treatment. No matter how good the plan, no matter

:03:28. > :03:31.how thorough the analysis or innovative dissolution, you cannot

:03:32. > :03:39.escape the basic problem of inadequate funding for both the NHS

:03:40. > :03:46.and social care. I will give way. Certainly, in my constituency we are

:03:47. > :03:52.very concerned because Bristol is in surplus but we will be going in with

:03:53. > :03:58.North Somerset which has a cumulative deficits. To us, it means

:03:59. > :04:04.cuts. That's the story we hear from all over the country. This is not

:04:05. > :04:09.profligate overspending on the part of NHS bosses or local government

:04:10. > :04:25.leaders. It is chronic underfunding on the part of government. There was

:04:26. > :04:30.much fun -- fanfare alongside the last budget but it is a flat-lining

:04:31. > :04:36.budget to deal with soaring demand. The reality is that in the last ten

:04:37. > :04:41.years, the number of people living beyond 80 has increased by half a

:04:42. > :04:46.million. The NHS and social care is buckling under the strain. While we

:04:47. > :04:50.should never give up on trying to organise the NHS in the most

:04:51. > :04:55.efficient and effective way possible, we have a choice as a

:04:56. > :05:01.country. Do we want to cut services to match the funding available? Do

:05:02. > :05:04.we want to pay more to ensure our grandparents and mums and dads get

:05:05. > :05:10.the sort of care that we would want for them. If the NHS is to provide

:05:11. > :05:14.decent care for older people, not only do we have to fund social care

:05:15. > :05:18.adequately but we also need to find better ways of organising services

:05:19. > :05:25.to keep people out of hospital for as long as possible. That leads me

:05:26. > :05:30.to the second problem. STPs are being used as a catchall process to

:05:31. > :05:37.bring about change in the NHS but many run the risk of focusing on the

:05:38. > :05:41.wrong things. They are being used to do different things in different

:05:42. > :05:46.places and while some may lead to better outcomes, the danger is that

:05:47. > :05:53.there will be blanket opposition to everything. Some proposals will be

:05:54. > :05:59.controversial. The closure or downgrading of an A department

:06:00. > :06:03.will never be easy. But these plans may end up with a lot of focus on

:06:04. > :06:12.something that isn't the burning issue. In my local area, the

:06:13. > :06:18.Southeast London STP proposes to orthopaedic care centres. The sites

:06:19. > :06:29.I've never been agreed. On the face of it, there is nothing wrong with

:06:30. > :06:34.the proposal. Create centres of excellence so that all operations

:06:35. > :06:44.are done in one place. But when newspapers talk about secret plans

:06:45. > :06:51.to close A they will smell a rat when one might not exist. I'm aware

:06:52. > :06:57.that many people want to speak and I wish to conclude my remarks. They

:06:58. > :07:02.say, what happens if Lewisham is on the site of the new centre? If it is

:07:03. > :07:08.shifted elsewhere and Busby. Does just that the emergency department?

:07:09. > :07:13.Is orthopaedic care and the burning issue in south-east London? What

:07:14. > :07:18.about the queues of ambulances? What about the homeless man who pitches

:07:19. > :07:22.up in A because he has nowhere to sleep and there is nowhere for him

:07:23. > :07:27.in the community. Where does the money come from to redesign the NHS

:07:28. > :07:32.buildings that such a care centre would entail? With ?1 billion taken

:07:33. > :07:36.out of the capital budget and switched to revenue last year, it

:07:37. > :07:41.seems fanciful to think that there will be money lying around to do

:07:42. > :07:47.these sorts of projects. The NHS is on its knees. Everyone knows that

:07:48. > :07:53.hospitals ended up being ?2.5 billion in deficit last year. We

:07:54. > :08:01.have seen the reports of the A closing overnight because they don't

:08:02. > :08:05.have the staff. We know that GPs are run ragged, ambulance staff are

:08:06. > :08:10.stressed out and nurses are demoralised. Without even mentioning

:08:11. > :08:14.junior doctors. If you don't fund the NHS adequately, if you don't

:08:15. > :08:19.staff it properly, don't be surprised when the public don't

:08:20. > :08:23.trust your so-called improvement plans. There is a deep public

:08:24. > :08:30.cynicism when it comes to anything that this government wants to do the

:08:31. > :08:34.NHS. People believe government ministers are trying to privatise

:08:35. > :08:38.it, they believe services are contracted out to the private sector

:08:39. > :08:44.to save money and not improve quality and in many cases they will

:08:45. > :08:48.be right. The problem isn't STPs as such but the context in which they

:08:49. > :08:53.are being developed. Inadequate funding, an inability to make the

:08:54. > :08:58.case for change, a workforce crisis which is leading to overnight

:08:59. > :09:11.closure of services. As a result of all of these, a deep public mistrust

:09:12. > :09:15.of government's intentions. May I congratulate my old whip to his

:09:16. > :09:19.elevation to be Minister of State at health. I hope he brings with him

:09:20. > :09:25.all the skills he learned at the Department of defence where he met

:09:26. > :09:31.many tough challenges. There are many ahead. At a time when there is

:09:32. > :09:36.upheaval in every department in Westminster, I suggest this is a

:09:37. > :09:40.good time to look afresh at where this department is going and I'd

:09:41. > :09:45.like to suggest some initiatives. This debate divides neatly into

:09:46. > :09:53.sustainability and transformation. I'd like to suggest that to have a

:09:54. > :09:58.sustainable health service is about reducing demand, we have to look at

:09:59. > :10:02.reducing demand on the service, if we're going to have a transformation

:10:03. > :10:10.it has to include increasing supply and looking for new types of

:10:11. > :10:17.treatments that are available. Mr Deputy Speaker, I am proud to have

:10:18. > :10:22.represented the middle of England, Leicestershire, for many years and,

:10:23. > :10:26.in particular, the whole of Hinckley Borough Council and share the

:10:27. > :10:32.initiatives they have taken since the health and social care act came

:10:33. > :10:37.in to being and suggest what we need to do beyond the kind of initiatives

:10:38. > :10:42.that this very successful Conservative controlled council have

:10:43. > :10:47.taken. They have taken three major initiatives in my constituency.

:10:48. > :10:54.Getting people to be more active, of all ages. Including young people

:10:55. > :11:01.putting an activity days for soccer tops, aged 2-4. Bike ability courses

:11:02. > :11:07.for six-year olds. BMX, track works, skipping, making smoothies, all

:11:08. > :11:11.kinds of activities. They were also built a new leisure centre which has

:11:12. > :11:16.been a huge success in that the numbers attending swimming in the

:11:17. > :11:23.borough have gone up at an exponential rate. They have produced

:11:24. > :11:32.excellent facilities. It's sad to relate that in my constituency 7%

:11:33. > :11:39.have diabetes, 68% are recorded as having excess weight, 20% would be

:11:40. > :11:43.obese. Obesity in children is increasing. My point is that however

:11:44. > :11:51.good local people are, we have to take other steps. The chair of the

:11:52. > :11:57.select committee knows what I am going to say. We have to look at

:11:58. > :12:01.obesity. The sugar tax is very important but not enough. We are

:12:02. > :12:07.going to have two deal with diet, food consumption and its very

:12:08. > :12:12.welcome that we have a sugar tax now but the template for moving ahead is

:12:13. > :12:18.the 100 year campaign to stop people smoking. To stop cigarettes

:12:19. > :12:23.dominating our lives. It began in 1868 when the railway bill was

:12:24. > :12:27.passed that mandated smoke-free carriages to prevent injury to

:12:28. > :12:35.nonsmokers and culminated in England going smoke-free in 2007. Mr Deputy

:12:36. > :12:41.Speaker, an transformation of local services we need to have more

:12:42. > :12:45.services. Some of the services are not properly coordinated. I was on

:12:46. > :12:50.the Osteopaths bill and chiropractors bill in 93 and 94.

:12:51. > :12:55.Both regulated by an act of Parliament. But the Osteopaths,

:12:56. > :12:59.chiropractors and orthopaedic surgeons do not talk. It's

:13:00. > :13:07.ridiculous. Too many people having operations that could be dealt with

:13:08. > :13:15.by chiropractors and spare parts. -- Osteopaths. Harry Clayton says that

:13:16. > :13:20.of 63,000 practitioners covering 25 occupations, far too little are

:13:21. > :13:26.being used in the health service. I think that's very sad. Mr Speaker, I