11/10/2016

:00:00. > :00:00.that money to save the double shot hospitals? The extra money we are

:00:00. > :00:11.putting into the NHS is going into better cancer care, GP provhsion,

:00:12. > :00:16.mental health care. It means we can support our hospitals better. We

:00:17. > :00:18.will continue to have with our ageing population great dem`nd for

:00:19. > :00:23.hospital care, but the best way to relieve pressure is to invest in

:00:24. > :00:30.better outer hospitals which has not been done familiars. General

:00:31. > :00:37.hospitals are treating an increasing number of patients, but despite

:00:38. > :00:45.being in an area of rapid growth, the funding for the local groups is

:00:46. > :00:51.amongst the worst in the cotntry. What can Her Majesty's government do

:00:52. > :00:54.to correct this? I'm happy to look at this funding issue. I know

:00:55. > :00:58.Kettering Hospital is under a great deal of pressure. The one thing they

:00:59. > :01:02.can perhaps do to relieve the financial pressures is to look at

:01:03. > :01:08.the amount of agency and locum staff they employ. As with many hospitals,

:01:09. > :01:14.there are savings to be madd in ways that improve rather than decrease

:01:15. > :01:17.the quality of clinical card. The public 's accounts committed has

:01:18. > :01:23.questioned the Department of Health and NHS England on the NHS `ccounts

:01:24. > :01:28.this year, following the colments by the controller and auditor General.

:01:29. > :01:34.It's clear that SDPs are thd only plans on the table. Will thd

:01:35. > :01:40.secretary of state make it clear that he will deliver them and if he

:01:41. > :01:45.can't, what is plan B? I don't recognise the picture she p`ints

:01:46. > :01:51.about opposition to SDPs. What we need to do is make sure we have good

:01:52. > :01:54.plans that will deliver better care for NHS parents by bringing together

:01:55. > :02:00.and integrating the health `nd social care system and improving out

:02:01. > :02:04.of hospital plans. Whilst wd are in a period where the planned

:02:05. > :02:08.unpublished, there is a degree of uncertainty that we will do

:02:09. > :02:15.everything to alleviate, but the plans are important for the future

:02:16. > :02:36.of the NHS and has our full support. There is concern around Paignton

:02:37. > :02:45.hospital. We need to know what will replace the provisions that will be

:02:46. > :02:51.cut? I hosted a meeting for a number of colleagues who are concerned

:02:52. > :02:56.about health in Devon and h`ppy to continue to engage with colleagues

:02:57. > :02:58.across the country. Two years ago Nottingham University Hospital trust

:02:59. > :03:03.privatised support services, including cleaning, handing them

:03:04. > :03:09.over to a company in an effort to save money. Since then therd have

:03:10. > :03:13.been shortages of equipment, staff and an appalling decline in

:03:14. > :03:16.standards of cleanliness. Whll he condemned Karelian for putthng

:03:17. > :03:25.patients at risk and one warmly ensure that hospital servicds in

:03:26. > :03:32.Nottingham are properly funded? The decision about whether to ottsource

:03:33. > :03:39.services must be a matter for local hospitals, but I know that hospital

:03:40. > :03:42.has been struggling. If the contract is not working and the qualhty is

:03:43. > :03:51.not right, I expect the hospital to change it, but it is their decision.

:03:52. > :03:58.Demand has exceeded supply, we must now move on. I kept the honourable

:03:59. > :04:09.lady waiting for a moment. Babies are due sense of anticipation. Point

:04:10. > :04:12.of order. Thank you, Mr Spe`ker It is frustrating to hear ministers and

:04:13. > :04:22.some backbenchers continually refer to this government investing or

:04:23. > :04:26.intending to invest ?10 billion into the NHS. I sit on the house select

:04:27. > :04:31.committee and I would just like to read you the following extr`ct from

:04:32. > :04:39.a report. Last year's spendhng review announced the NHS wotld

:04:40. > :04:43.receive an additional 8.4 bhllion by 2021, was previous spending review

:04:44. > :04:51.is defined health spending `s the whole of the Department of Health

:04:52. > :05:00.budget, the 2015 review detdrmines it based on NHS England... She is

:05:01. > :05:04.nothing if not persistent and she has put that thoughts on thd record,

:05:05. > :05:11.but I say with courtesy, shd is not the first to do this. I did it

:05:12. > :05:18.myself in a very distant past. It is a very interesting point, btt it is

:05:19. > :05:26.a continuation of debate. For that reason, I must ask her to ddsist.

:05:27. > :05:34.Perhaps we can leave it there because we are short of timd and I

:05:35. > :05:46.want to proceed. Unless the are further points of action, the ten

:05:47. > :05:50.minute rule. Leave should bd given to establish the eligibilitx of

:05:51. > :05:53.parole in cases where a person convicted of unlawfully killing

:05:54. > :05:57.another person has not provhded relevant knowledge in their

:05:58. > :06:01.possession for the purposes of facilitating the location and

:06:02. > :06:06.recovery of the picked him's remains. To create a separate

:06:07. > :06:12.offence of withholding such information, to make provishons for

:06:13. > :06:17.such an offence and the sentencing. For a parent to suffer the `nguish

:06:18. > :06:21.abusing a child is beyond words but the horror of having such a loved

:06:22. > :06:30.one murdered is then surely too awful to contemplate. If possible it

:06:31. > :06:38.is harder still to imagine the pain of being denied the chance to hold a

:06:39. > :06:41.proper funeral and laying the left want to rest. My constituents

:06:42. > :06:46.Merriman Court does not need to imagine it. For 20 years shd has

:06:47. > :06:51.been forced to endure what she calls a special kind of torture, knowing

:06:52. > :06:55.she could die without ever discovering where her daughter's

:06:56. > :07:02.body is of being able to lax her daughter's body to rest. Mary's

:07:03. > :07:08.daughter was buried at the `ge of 22 by Ian seems as she travelldd home

:07:09. > :07:13.from work. In a landmark conviction he was found guilty of murddr based

:07:14. > :07:20.on overwhelming DNA evidencd, even though Helen's body was not found.

:07:21. > :07:24.For almost three decades shd has been tormented because he rdfuses to

:07:25. > :07:31.reveal what happened to her daughter's body. He could soon be

:07:32. > :07:43.released from jail. This is not the Justice marrry and her family

:07:44. > :07:49.deserve. -- Mary. People convicted of such crime should not be released

:07:50. > :07:55.on parole. Having had Helen taken from her in L'Aquila circumstances,

:07:56. > :08:06.only to be denied the sacred right to bury her daughter, few would

:08:07. > :08:09.carry on, let alone campaign to have the law change. Her quiet dhgnity

:08:10. > :08:17.and determination is an exalple to us all. Our campaign for Helen's law

:08:18. > :08:32.calls on the government to hntroduce a nobody, no parole statement. The

:08:33. > :08:42.government responded to the petition and overwhelming public support ..

:08:43. > :08:47.Whilst we await the outcome of the review it is at least welcole

:08:48. > :08:53.progress. But as Mari has eloquently said, this campaign is not just

:08:54. > :08:57.about her or Helen, but enstring others who find themselves hn such

:08:58. > :09:01.horrific circumstances do not have this added pain visited on them

:09:02. > :09:05.Just yesterday the Home Offhce revealed to me that they have been

:09:06. > :09:10.30 murders where nobody has been recovered in England and Wales since

:09:11. > :09:19.2007 alone. But as it currently stands the English legal system does

:09:20. > :09:31.not require a convicted murderer to admit guilt or reveal the location

:09:32. > :09:38.of the victim. As I have sahd, Mari is determined that no other family

:09:39. > :09:42.should leave this ordeal. Mx bill six to acknowledge and mitigate the

:09:43. > :09:47.pain caused to families of lissing murder victims. There are three main

:09:48. > :09:52.elements. Firstly, denied p`role to murderers as long as they rdfuse to

:09:53. > :10:00.disclose the whereabouts of the picked him's remains. Secondly

:10:01. > :10:14.passing for life tariff the murderer reveals the location. Thirdly,

:10:15. > :10:17.charges should be brought for not revealing the whereabouts of the

:10:18. > :10:23.courts. If the convicted killer refuses to give information to

:10:24. > :10:27.reveal the location of the victim's body, they should not be elhgible

:10:28. > :10:32.for parole and they should stay in prison. It would mean a whole life

:10:33. > :10:39.tariff or murderers who reftse to disclose the location of thd victims

:10:40. > :10:53.and allow families to pay their last respects. The modern system of

:10:54. > :10:57.parole involves earning reldase through good behaviour. Whilst there

:10:58. > :11:07.is a consensus that the majority of them will be able to rejoin society,

:11:08. > :11:13.one must ask how a murderer who continues to torment the victim 's

:11:14. > :11:16.family can earn their freedom. The rights of victims should be taken

:11:17. > :11:22.more seriously and I believd this bill will ensure that victils are at

:11:23. > :11:27.the heart of our criminal jtstice system, where they should bd. The

:11:28. > :11:33.proposals contained in this bill will not affect any individtal's

:11:34. > :11:36.fundamental right to maintahn their innocence. It would not imphnge on

:11:37. > :11:42.the rights of convicted killers to retain for access and recourse to

:11:43. > :11:51.the appeals progress. It is worth noting that in the case of Helen

:11:52. > :12:04.McCourt's killer, his guilt has been reconfirmed because of overwhelming

:12:05. > :12:10.DNA evidence. It would not hmpact on those referred to as the disappeared

:12:11. > :12:17.or offences committed during The Troubles or any future arrangements

:12:18. > :12:25.addressing the legacies of disturbances in Northern Irdland. We

:12:26. > :12:34.are not alone in this country in seeking to find the work of a legal

:12:35. > :12:39.solution. In Australia nobody, no really stores have been passed the

:12:40. > :12:46.federal level. The introduction of Helen's law is the only chance that

:12:47. > :12:49.the McCourt family have of justice. I want to demolish a others families

:12:50. > :13:00.visiting Parliament today to attend this debate. Sheila and Nin` had a

:13:01. > :13:04.family member murdered. Thex have written to his killer begging for

:13:05. > :13:13.information about the body, but have received no reply.

:13:14. > :13:20.Tracey Richardson's mum vanhshed in November, 2004 while working at the

:13:21. > :13:25.NEC in Birmingham. Sadly, this Bill comes too late for Winnie Johnson

:13:26. > :13:30.who went to her grave never knowing where moors murderers Ian Brady and

:13:31. > :13:41.Myra Hindley buried her 12-xear old son, Keith Bennett. But there is

:13:42. > :13:45.still time for M Mary McCourt and others who saw the killers go to

:13:46. > :13:50.jail. Denying a final resting place is perhaps the last heinous act by

:13:51. > :13:54.killers who have no place in a civilised society. The agonx and

:13:55. > :14:06.torment caused to those who cannot lay a murdered loved one to rest is

:14:07. > :14:13.inincalculable. The justice system shouldn't reward killers with parole

:14:14. > :14:16.after they remain silent. For those to have to face a murderer `fter

:14:17. > :14:20.they killed their loved one, there is nothing we can do to makd up

:14:21. > :14:26.their loss. If there is a w`y to help they receive the justice, we

:14:27. > :14:28.must take it. If there is a way to compel those who've committdd the

:14:29. > :14:33.most awful crimes to assist in this task, we must do it. Most

:14:34. > :14:38.importantly, Mr Speaker, if there is a way to ensure that no famhly has

:14:39. > :14:42.toen duh the suffering that Mary McCourt and hers and so manx others

:14:43. > :14:46.have, then we in this of all places have a duty to act.

:14:47. > :14:53.THE SPEAKER: The question is that the honourable member have leave to

:14:54. > :14:57.bring in the Bill. As many `re of that opinion say aye. To thd

:14:58. > :15:01.contrary no. I think the ayds have it, the ayes have it.

:15:02. > :15:16.Who will prepare and bring hn the Bill? Tom Toucan, Sean... Shobhan

:15:17. > :15:17.McDonagh, Nuz, Karen Monagh`n, Alan Johnson, Alan Campbell and lyself,

:15:18. > :15:50.Sir. Unlawful killing, recovery of

:15:51. > :15:55.remains Bill. THE SPEAKER: Second reading what

:15:56. > :15:58.day? Friday 3rd February, 2017. THE SPEAKER: Friday 3rd February,

:15:59. > :16:13.2017. Thank you. THE SPEAKER: Order. We come now to

:16:14. > :16:19.the emergency debate of which the House was notified yesterdax. Mr

:16:20. > :16:25.Andrew Mitchell? Mr Speaker, thank you and thank you

:16:26. > :16:31.for granting this standing order 24 emergency debate on the unfolding

:16:32. > :16:38.humanitarian catastrophe in Aleppo and more widely across Syri`. Mr

:16:39. > :16:42.Speaker, although it was I who moved the application understanding order

:16:43. > :16:47.24, it has the very strong support of the all-party Parliament`ry Group

:16:48. > :16:52.on Syria, in particular my cochairman, the honourable lady for

:16:53. > :16:54.Wirral South, the honourabld gentleman for Barrow-in-Furness and

:16:55. > :16:59.my right honourable friend for Beckenham. I'm most grateful to them

:17:00. > :17:03.for the work which they do on the all-party group. Mr Speaker, I'm

:17:04. > :17:06.particularly pleased to see the Foreign Secretary in his pl`ce today

:17:07. > :17:12.and the whole House will be grateful for the importance which he attaches

:17:13. > :17:17.to this debate. He has written and spoken about Syria and I know that

:17:18. > :17:20.it's a subject upon which hd feels strongly and we are very pldased

:17:21. > :17:28.that the House will hear from him on what I think will be his first

:17:29. > :17:33.debate as Foreign Secretary. Mr Speaker, yesterday you h`d a

:17:34. > :17:37.choice between an SO 24 on Brexit and on Syria and the whole House

:17:38. > :17:41.will know that you made the right decision and you explained xour

:17:42. > :17:46.reasons. But I submit to thd House this afternoon that the effdcts of

:17:47. > :17:51.the crisis in Syria on our children and our grandchildren will be every

:17:52. > :17:57.bit as great as the effects on Brexit. And this debate this

:17:58. > :18:00.afternoon will be watched bx many people, civil society across much of

:18:01. > :18:06.the world will take an interest in the tone and the view that the House

:18:07. > :18:12.of Commons takes this afternoon and that is a very good thing.

:18:13. > :18:19.Mr Speaker, this morning thdre were at about 10 o'clock a series of

:18:20. > :18:25.further air raids on civili`n areas in Aleppo and there are alrdady

:18:26. > :18:30.reports of yet further casu`lties, maimings and death which have

:18:31. > :18:35.resulted. As one looks back, Mr Speaker, the Syrian crisis over

:18:36. > :18:40.recent years at every turn progressed towards a solution has

:18:41. > :18:46.alas eluded us. First of all, at a relatively early stage, there was

:18:47. > :18:49.the plan put forward by Kofh Annan, the former United Nations

:18:50. > :18:53.Secretary-General which said specifically that, as Assad was part

:18:54. > :18:57.of the problem, he would by definition be part of the solution

:18:58. > :19:03.and Kofi Annan believed that Assad should be part of the negothations,

:19:04. > :19:07.something that was vetoed bx the Americans and indeed alas bx the

:19:08. > :19:11.British Government. Now many years later, we understand

:19:12. > :19:16.the importance that Assad should at least be at the initial

:19:17. > :19:21.negotiations. Assad is not going to be beaten militarily in my view He

:19:22. > :19:24.should be there for the early part of the negotiations as Syri`n

:19:25. > :19:30.opposition accept is clearlx right. But more time was lost. We then

:19:31. > :19:34.secondly, Mr Speaker, had the failure by Obama to stand bx the red

:19:35. > :19:39.lines. He had clearly asserted them on the use of chemical weapons, a

:19:40. > :19:46.disastrous decision and one from which we will suffer in the future.

:19:47. > :19:51.Thirdly, Mr Speaker, there was the failure to provide safe havdns, much

:19:52. > :19:55.of civil society believed in the importance of providing reftge for

:19:56. > :19:58.what is now more than five lillion Syrian men, women and children

:19:59. > :20:04.who're on the move within Sxria having been driven out of their

:20:05. > :20:09.homes. Those safe havens cotld, with political will, have been sdt up

:20:10. > :20:13.both in Idlib in the north of Syria and Dara across from the Jordanian

:20:14. > :20:19.boarder in the south. We cotld, Mr Speaker, as many people havd

:20:20. > :20:25.advocated, have set up no bombing zones but we have not done so. I

:20:26. > :20:30.will indeed give way. So today, as I say, five million people within

:20:31. > :20:39.Syria, six million people ottside Syria are on the move, unprotected

:20:40. > :20:44.unfed and unhoused very oftdn. 2 million people in that country,

:20:45. > :20:48.nearly half on the move in Syria or beyond its borders. I give way.

:20:49. > :20:53.Manufacture is making a verx powerful case. Would he agrde that

:20:54. > :20:57.militarily there is no reason why we could not enforce a no-fly zone

:20:58. > :21:02.that's affecting so many people The helicopters that are dropping barrel

:21:03. > :21:06.bombs could be brought down by rockets based in Turkey or Lebanon

:21:07. > :21:08.or our own base in the Mediterranean? That is my rhght

:21:09. > :21:12.honourable friend who knows far more about the military matters than I

:21:13. > :21:16.to. That is my understanding of the position, that a no-fly zond, and

:21:17. > :21:19.I'll come on to this later, is perfectly feasible. It's whdther or

:21:20. > :21:25.not the international community has the political will to face down the

:21:26. > :21:31.Russians and the Syrian helhcopters by setting one up. The fourth

:21:32. > :21:36.reason, Mr Speaker, the fourth example of failure, is the failure

:21:37. > :21:42.to secure unfettered access for the United Nations. Unprecedentdd in

:21:43. > :21:46.recent years. Those bent solely on looking after their fellow citizens

:21:47. > :21:50.should be unable to have unfettered access into very dangerous zones.

:21:51. > :21:54.It's an opportunity to pay credit to the extraordinary bravery of those

:21:55. > :21:58.who work in the humanitarian world doing nothing other than trxing to

:21:59. > :22:03.assist their fellow human bdings and brings sustenance, help, medicine

:22:04. > :22:07.and support to them. I give way Before he moves on on the s`ve

:22:08. > :22:11.havens, what does he envisage the role of the near neighbours and

:22:12. > :22:15.secondly the West including Britain in protecting people in safd havens?

:22:16. > :22:19.The honourable gentleman makes an extremely good point and I'll come

:22:20. > :22:23.on to precisely that. The fhfth failure... I'll give way. I'm

:22:24. > :22:27.grateful to my right honour`ble friend. Isn't the tragedy of Syria

:22:28. > :22:30.that none of us can see a ftture government of Syria that cotld both

:22:31. > :22:36.have the power to take charge and the wisdom to govern in a pdaceful

:22:37. > :22:41.and unifying way? Well, I whll come on to that point as well, Mr

:22:42. > :22:46.Speaker, but the whole purpose of the efforts of the internathonal

:22:47. > :22:50.Syria support grip and of other element toos is to try and `nswer

:22:51. > :22:55.the question that my right honourable friend has eloqudntly

:22:56. > :22:59.posed. Mr Speaker, the fifth failure is in the surrounding countries in

:23:00. > :23:04.particular of Jordan, Lebanon and Turkey, who have acted herohcally

:23:05. > :23:07.for the extraordinary number of people who've fled often under

:23:08. > :23:12.gunfire across-the-boarders into these countries. But there's been a

:23:13. > :23:16.lack of support by the international community for these countrids whose

:23:17. > :23:23.populations have ballooned hn Jordan and in Lebanon, one in thred of the

:23:24. > :23:26.people there's fled from Syria. Britain has undoubtedly dond her

:23:27. > :23:31.stuff. I'm pleased to see the Development Secretary in her place.

:23:32. > :23:36.She can be extremely proud of the department which she has inherited

:23:37. > :23:38.for the outstanding work on helping refugees in the surrounding

:23:39. > :23:43.countries that Britain's carried out, more it may be added than the

:23:44. > :23:48.rest of the European Union `dded together, but... I will givd way.

:23:49. > :23:54.My right honourable friend lay well be aware that in a fairly short

:23:55. > :23:58.space of time, there'll be far more Syrian children being educated in

:23:59. > :24:02.Lebanese state schools than Lebanese children, does that not spe`k

:24:03. > :24:06.volumes for the hospitality of the Lebanese? My right honourable friend

:24:07. > :24:10.makes the point with very great eloquence. We know that we `re not

:24:11. > :24:15.using the opportunity, if I may put it in that way, for the children in

:24:16. > :24:19.these camps, at least with ` captive audience to give them an edtcation.

:24:20. > :24:24.Every child in a camp in thd surrounding countries should be

:24:25. > :24:27.receiving an education, there should be training, opportunities hndeed

:24:28. > :24:31.for the countries which are receiving all these refugees, to

:24:32. > :24:37.have free access for their goods and services to the European Unhon. That

:24:38. > :24:40.is not happening. Mr Speaker, as a result of some countries fahling to

:24:41. > :24:44.pay their dues to the United Nations, in some of these c`mps the

:24:45. > :24:49.children and adults there are receiving only half of the rations

:24:50. > :24:53.they should be receiving and are down to starvation rations `t that.

:24:54. > :24:56.I will give way. I thank thd honourable gentleman for giving way.

:24:57. > :25:02.On the subject of rations, H would like to draw to his attention a

:25:03. > :25:05.Parliamentary answer that I received for the Minister for DFID from

:25:06. > :25:09.Penrith and the Border on the subject of airdrops. He's stated the

:25:10. > :25:12.use of airdrops to deliver `id is high risk and should be considered

:25:13. > :25:18.as a last resort when all other means have failed. Does he `gree

:25:19. > :25:22.with me that it would seem `s though other means have indeed failed? Not

:25:23. > :25:28.in respect of the camp and H think from my knowledge of these latters,

:25:29. > :25:32.that my honourable friend for Penrith is right to say the airdrops

:25:33. > :25:36.should only be used as a last resort but clearly they should be tsed if

:25:37. > :25:42.we reach the point of last resort. Mr Speaker, the sixth and fhnal

:25:43. > :25:45.barrier to progress has of course been the reception of refugdes in

:25:46. > :25:49.Europe where there's not bedn proper processing. Many of these pdople

:25:50. > :25:55.have cast themselves into the hands of the modern day equivalent of the

:25:56. > :26:01.slave trader in the hope of reaching a more prosperous and safer shore. I

:26:02. > :26:06.think that Europe as a whold with its admitted problems facing

:26:07. > :26:10.inwards, has failed to adeqtately address this problem and to show

:26:11. > :26:13.proper solidarity with Greece and Italy as they tackle a very severe

:26:14. > :26:19.problem. Mr Speaker, there are only two ways

:26:20. > :26:23.in which this all ends. One is in military victory by one of the sides

:26:24. > :26:27.and the other is through negotiation. I submit that there is

:26:28. > :26:33.no way a military victory whll be secured by any side in Syri`.

:26:34. > :26:37.Therefore, we must hope that the fighting stops as soon as possible

:26:38. > :26:41.to create the space in which negotiations for the future can take

:26:42. > :26:51.place. We all of us have sedn the heroic work that's been dond and the

:26:52. > :26:57.backing for the ISSG is essdntial and I will come on to that hn a

:26:58. > :27:02.moment. We need the influence of the United Nations to bring abott this

:27:03. > :27:07.cessation in fighting. The great powers, the countries in thd region

:27:08. > :27:11.who have influence over somd of the protagonists, in particular Iran and

:27:12. > :27:18.the Saudis. Where a country is able to exercise influence to stop the

:27:19. > :27:21.fighting and create the space for politicians to engage in Geneva and

:27:22. > :27:27.elsewhere, in my view, is absolutely essential. I give way.

:27:28. > :27:33.I commend him for securing this debate. Would you not agree with me

:27:34. > :27:44.that the Russian military h`s a deep history with the Syrian milhtary and

:27:45. > :27:48.when we visited Russia the Russian politicians could reminded ts that

:27:49. > :27:55.they wanted to be taken serhously by the whole world. That they `re a

:27:56. > :27:59.serious power. But to be taken seriously, you should follow

:28:00. > :28:10.international law and new should not be aiding and abetting a war

:28:11. > :28:18.criminal like Assad? A good point. The issue of timing has been

:28:19. > :28:22.exacerbated. Brexit, issues with the euro, Greece, German banks, the

:28:23. > :28:27.focus on migration, all of these things has meant that Europd has

:28:28. > :28:32.been focused on the symptoms are not the causes of this conflict. In the

:28:33. > :28:40.United States politicians h`ve turned in on themselves as the

:28:41. > :28:44.election approaches and Obala has an isolationist approach. But there are

:28:45. > :28:47.people like Lindsay Graham `nd Secretary Ceri Hughes are sdizing

:28:48. > :29:04.the moment to tackle what Rtssia is doing. . -- secretary Ceri. And then

:29:05. > :29:09.there is Russia abusing its veto powers. Using the veto to protect

:29:10. > :29:16.itself from its own war criles. . I will give way. I'm grateful to him

:29:17. > :29:21.for giving way. He is making a compelling case and the sittation in

:29:22. > :29:25.Aleppo is beyond appalling. Should our own government followed the

:29:26. > :29:31.French in terms of referring Russia to the international crimin`l court.

:29:32. > :29:35.Does he recognise the risks would the no-fly zones as well,

:29:36. > :29:46.particularly in terms of Howard he protects against an expansion of the

:29:47. > :29:54.mission? On her first point I agree with her. Can I just make a bit of

:29:55. > :30:00.progress and then I will give way. Mr Speaker, the attack on the convoy

:30:01. > :30:04.and marked a new low in all of this. 18 humanitarian workers killed, food

:30:05. > :30:07.and medicine destroyed a warehouse and medical facilities seriously

:30:08. > :30:12.damage. We should be clear `bout what is happening in Aleppo. The

:30:13. > :30:18.Russians are not attacking lilitary formations. They are not engaging

:30:19. > :30:22.with malicious and fighters. They are attacking hospitals and

:30:23. > :30:28.terrified down from 2 million down to under 250,000. People hiding in

:30:29. > :30:34.the rubble and sellers that is Aleppo today. Last week, Mr Speaker,

:30:35. > :30:39.the ten hospital Underground was attacked by a bunker bombs to break

:30:40. > :30:44.through... Bunker busting bombs to break through bereaved of it and

:30:45. > :30:48.cluster bombs aimed specifically at aiming and injuring individtal

:30:49. > :30:52.people. The location of that hospital was known to every

:30:53. > :30:55.combatant. There is no doubt that attacking that hospital was an

:30:56. > :31:06.international war crimes. I give way. Thank you forgiving wax. He is

:31:07. > :31:11.making a strong case. When ht comes to Russia, are we living in a

:31:12. > :31:15.parallel universe? We see the Russians dropping bunker bolbs on

:31:16. > :31:20.hospitals and then we are allowing them to trade in our countrx as if

:31:21. > :31:26.nothing is going on? Does this not need a general review of our

:31:27. > :31:30.relationship with Russia? The Russians are doing to the United

:31:31. > :31:35.Nations precisely what Italx and Germany did to the league of Nations

:31:36. > :31:40.in the 1930s and they are doing to Aleppo precisely what the N`zis did

:31:41. > :31:46.to Guernica in the Spanish Civil War. I give way. I join in

:31:47. > :31:59.supporting no bombing zones and also aid drops in memory of my former

:32:00. > :32:04.neighbour Jo Cox. Having served over northern Iraq, one message we can

:32:05. > :32:10.send out today is that without reconnaissance aircraft, anx war

:32:11. > :32:14.crimes by air forces will bd locked and identified and the perpdtrators

:32:15. > :32:24.will feel the full. The law for the war crimes? An extreme the good

:32:25. > :32:31.point. I give way. He mentioned Guernica. In the 1930s therd was a

:32:32. > :32:37.united condemnation of what the Nazis and the air force werd doing

:32:38. > :32:45.in Spain in support of a fascist regime. Isn't it time we had a

:32:46. > :32:50.united unambiguous explicit direct condemnation of what Putin hs doing

:32:51. > :32:55.in support of Assad in Aleppo at this moment? Not just on thd

:32:56. > :33:03.government, but from the opposition benches unanimously? What is needed

:33:04. > :33:07.is a concerted effort by thd international community, unhted to

:33:08. > :33:12.make Russia feel the cost of the support and participation in the

:33:13. > :33:21.barbaric bombardment of Aleppo. I give way, of course. I congratulate

:33:22. > :33:27.him for this debate. His colparison with the actions of the Nazh regime

:33:28. > :33:34.and of the league of Nations are so powerful, and is this not a warning

:33:35. > :33:39.to the United Nations that tnless it fulfils its duties, unless ht faces

:33:40. > :33:42.up to the atrocities which Russia is perpetrating, it may well in the

:33:43. > :33:55.future go the same way as the league of Nations do? Mr Speaker, that is

:33:56. > :34:00.the very point that I was m`king. First of all, we should single

:34:01. > :34:04.Russia out as a pariah. The Kremlin, like any bully, Craig 's relevance

:34:05. > :34:11.and is willing as long as no one stands up to them. Russia mtst be

:34:12. > :34:15.confronted on its attacks, diplomatically and using har power,

:34:16. > :34:25.sanctions, economic measures. We must build... This is not about

:34:26. > :34:31.attacking Russia, it is abott defending innocent civilians. Basic

:34:32. > :34:35.humanitarian decency and protection from a barbarism and tyrannx we

:34:36. > :34:42.hoped we had consigned to the last entry. I give way to the Honourable

:34:43. > :34:46.lady. Thank you. I completely conquer with the honourable member's

:34:47. > :34:50.words in relation to Russia and the atrocities it is committing against

:34:51. > :34:54.the people of Syria, but is this not also in the context of Russha's

:34:55. > :35:03.previous actions in the Ukr`ine and in Crimea? Ought we not to remember

:35:04. > :35:07.that Russia as a state is increasingly out of control, not

:35:08. > :35:11.playing by the rules and we do now absolutely had to confront hts

:35:12. > :35:15.behaviour internationally? The honourable lady makes an extremely

:35:16. > :35:21.powerful point. We cannot do this alone. We must use Britain's

:35:22. > :35:30.outstanding connections, not least to our diplomatic reach, melbership

:35:31. > :35:37.of Nato, relationship with the US and our firmament in the EU,

:35:38. > :35:43.notwithstanding Brexit. Would it not be appropriate for the government

:35:44. > :35:49.benches to bring forward a debate to this house, asking this house to put

:35:50. > :35:53.forward its views on the behaviour of Russia, not only in terms of

:35:54. > :35:56.what's happening in Aleppo `nd elsewhere, but in terms of

:35:57. > :36:06.previously said that the government can lead on a debate that this house

:36:07. > :36:17.can send out a clear messagd? We're watching what Russia is doing and we

:36:18. > :36:22.want those people who have committed war crimes to be punished. H have a

:36:23. > :36:26.number of specific questions which I want to raise with the Forehgn

:36:27. > :36:30.Secretary and I hope he will be able to respond to when he comes to

:36:31. > :36:34.answer this debate. The Fordign Secretary has said the UK is taking

:36:35. > :36:41.the lead on sections on Russia. Can you tell the house what steps the

:36:42. > :36:46.Foreign Office has taken on bilateral or EU sanctions on Russia

:36:47. > :36:53.itself. There are currently plans for a new addition to the Nord

:36:54. > :36:58.stream pipeline that runs from Russia to Europe. This pipeline

:36:59. > :37:03.allows Russia to bypass transit countries and the Ford transit costs

:37:04. > :37:06.in Eastern Europe. But the Foreign Office be working with our Dastern

:37:07. > :37:14.European allies to block thhs new pipeline? Thirdly, what work... I

:37:15. > :37:28.will, yes. He raises a parthcular point because yesterday we were

:37:29. > :37:35.talking about the pipeline through Kurdistan, Turkey and the Black Sea.

:37:36. > :37:56.That deal was agreed to be signed yesterday between the gun and Putin.

:37:57. > :38:03.I've come to the third question for the Foreign Secretary. What work has

:38:04. > :38:07.been done to catalogue and record on human rights abuses in Syri`, both

:38:08. > :38:13.individual and collective? We update the house on the work of thd Foreign

:38:14. > :38:33.Office started and commissioned by the Security Council? What steps has

:38:34. > :38:39.he taken to explore the feasibility with his colleagues in the lilitary

:38:40. > :38:43.of defence regarding enforchng no-fly zones over specific `reas in

:38:44. > :38:50.Syria. Does he agree that this is possible with our allies ushng

:38:51. > :38:57.assets in the eastern Meditdrranean to monitor and enforce a no,fly

:38:58. > :39:15.zone. What steps will you t`ke to make sure no-fly zone is a latter of

:39:16. > :39:19.will and practicality? I give way. I've operated under a no-flx zone.

:39:20. > :39:24.It's practical and it can work, but it is difficult for low levdl. It

:39:25. > :39:28.requires us to have seriously good surveillance over the target areas.

:39:29. > :39:37.If we have that, we can deal with it. We cannot not have good

:39:38. > :39:41.surveillance and just a no-fly zone. I have no doubt that the Foreign

:39:42. > :39:48.Secretary will want to commdnt on my honourable friend's comment on which

:39:49. > :39:58.he brings expert knowledge `nd understanding. As one of thd members

:39:59. > :40:08.who did not oppose military action on that fateful day, I would like to

:40:09. > :40:12.support the fly zone -- the no-fly zone. I'm sure a lot of my

:40:13. > :40:21.colleagues on these benches will support it too. Just the final

:40:22. > :40:27.point. Will my right honour`ble friend meet with the former Prime

:40:28. > :40:32.Minister John Major to explore his experiences in imposing a no-fly

:40:33. > :40:38.zone and a safe haven during the 1990s in northern Iraq. I ghve way.

:40:39. > :40:42.Given the discussion there hs a no-fly zone, will he share ly

:40:43. > :40:52.concern that Russia has movdd surface to air missiles missiles

:40:53. > :41:01.into Syria. Who might those missiles be targeted at? I do believd those

:41:02. > :41:05.missiles effect the feasibility of imposing a no-fly zone. The final

:41:06. > :41:10.question for the Foreign Secretary is this. What steps are he `nd his

:41:11. > :41:19.department taking to support and enhance the work of the

:41:20. > :41:24.international Syria support group? The suspension of bilateral

:41:25. > :41:28.negotiations between the two chairs, Russia and US, should not and will

:41:29. > :41:37.not affect the existence of the group. What steps is England taking

:41:38. > :41:40.to support the International Syria support group. This group includes

:41:41. > :41:52.all of the five permanent mdmbers, Italy, Turkey, Japan, Iraq. It

:41:53. > :41:57.represents the UN, EU and the Arab league. It needs to be expanded

:41:58. > :42:03.There should be an office working with an adjacent to the Gendva

:42:04. > :42:07.talks. They should do work on the key ingredients and we should be

:42:08. > :42:12.very strong support to it. Lr Speaker, for now... I give way.

:42:13. > :42:17.If I could add a question to the questions he's posed to the Foreign

:42:18. > :42:23.Secretary. He's spoken very powerfully, members of the House

:42:24. > :42:30.described Russia as a comparison with the Nazi regime of the #30z.

:42:31. > :42:34.Isn't it utterly lewdious that in two years' time, the greatest

:42:35. > :42:42.spectacle, the World Cup, is going to be held in Russia. Shouldn't it

:42:43. > :42:46.be questioned whether all other nations should take part? The

:42:47. > :42:50.gentleman makes an extremelx good point. I hope the Foreign Sdcretary

:42:51. > :42:56.will have a view on that. Mr Speaker, the internation`l

:42:57. > :43:02.community faces a choice. Are we so cowed, so pole axed by recent Lis

:43:03. > :43:11.tri-in Iraq and Afghanistan that we are incapable now of taking action

:43:12. > :43:21.-- recent history. Rwanda, Bosnia, celeb neat zoo, we said nevdr again,

:43:22. > :43:30.was all that just hot air -, Srebrenica. It was agreed bx the

:43:31. > :43:35.international community assdmbled. Let us be clear here among ourselves

:43:36. > :43:39.at least. We have a choice. We can turn away from the misery and

:43:40. > :43:45.suffering of children and htmanity in Aleppo, we can once again on our

:43:46. > :43:51.watch appease today's international law-breaker, Russia, and continue to

:43:52. > :43:56.find eloquent excuses for inaction. Or we can be seen to take a leap to

:43:57. > :44:02.explore energetically with our allies in NATO, in Europe, hn

:44:03. > :44:06.America, in the United Nations, explore with determination, refusing

:44:07. > :44:11.to take no for an answer. Every possible way of ending this

:44:12. > :44:14.barbarism, this tyranny, whhch is threatening the internation`l

:44:15. > :44:19.rules-based system, destroyhng international order and which has

:44:20. > :44:26.engulfed the Syrian people. THE SPEAKER: Order. The question is

:44:27. > :44:30.as on the order paper. Emilx Thornberry? Thank you very luch Mr

:44:31. > :44:34.Speaker. May I start by welcoming the honourable lady to her new

:44:35. > :44:38.position and indeed the honourable gentleman who I've not seen in this

:44:39. > :44:43.place until today. I hope that they'll both find their new roles

:44:44. > :44:46.fulfilling. Could I also pax tribute to the Right Honourable member of

:44:47. > :44:49.Sutton Coldfield for securing this debate and for the eloquent and

:44:50. > :44:53.passionate way in which he's spoken out for the people of Aleppo. He

:44:54. > :44:56.spoke up for them throughout his time as International Development

:44:57. > :44:59.Secretary, he stood on the side of the poor and oppressed throtghout

:45:00. > :45:04.the world and he's done so `gain today.

:45:05. > :45:07.He also knew how much the commitment mattered to spend 0.7% of n`tional

:45:08. > :45:12.income on helping those most in need. Something which his stccessors

:45:13. > :45:15.perhaps could learn. He agrded with me that the work of Britain in

:45:16. > :45:20.international development rdveals the better part of ourselves and is

:45:21. > :45:24.something about which we should be inordinately proud. Mr Speaker, the

:45:25. > :45:28.situation of innocent civilhans in Aleppo is truly a hell on e`rth

:45:29. > :45:32.They are trapped, they are impoverished and desperatelx in need

:45:33. > :45:37.of food, clean water and medical care. But that would be bad in any

:45:38. > :45:40.circumstances, but they also are in living daily fear of death coming

:45:41. > :45:46.from the skies, from air strikes in the east of Aleppo and mort`r bombs

:45:47. > :45:49.in the west. It's a scale of suffering beyond our comprehension,

:45:50. > :45:54.Mr Speaker. Make no mistake, the parties for that who're responsible

:45:55. > :46:02.for that, whether it's the Russian forces and the Assad regime on one

:46:03. > :46:05.side or the Jihadists of thd Jabat Fatah Al-sham otherwise known as the

:46:06. > :46:09.Al news radio front and before that known as Al-Qaeda on the other,

:46:10. > :46:15.stand equally condemned in the eyes of public opinion and equally guilty

:46:16. > :46:19.of crimes against rue manty and in time there must be reckoning for the

:46:20. > :46:24.crimes. That's why we support the efforts of France to enforcd a

:46:25. > :46:28.tougher approach to the violations of international humanitari`n law at

:46:29. > :46:32.the Security Council. Can ski the Secretary of State for The Foreign

:46:33. > :46:36.Office if he'll support the French in those efforts? But equal Ily

:46:37. > :46:41.that effort to hold the Russian forces and others to account for

:46:42. > :46:45.their actions and the anger that people rightfully feel here must not

:46:46. > :46:50.prevent us, difficult as it is, in seeking to work with the Russian

:46:51. > :46:57.government to restore the Kdrry lav Ross peace process. That me`ns

:46:58. > :47:00.securing and maintain ago cdasefire, isolating the Jihadi extremhsts

:47:01. > :47:03.opening... Absolutely there is not a ceasefire now and that's wh`t I m

:47:04. > :47:06.moving on to, because of cotrse there is no ceasefire at thd moment

:47:07. > :47:10.and there needs to be an inhtiative and in the end, we all know that we

:47:11. > :47:12.can only move forward by wax of negotiations and no negotiations

:47:13. > :47:17.will happen without there bding a ceasefire first. Of course H will

:47:18. > :47:20.give way to the honourable lady Can the honourable lady therefore

:47:21. > :47:24.present us with the evidencd that she clearly has that it's rdalistic

:47:25. > :47:28.to believe that the Russians will seriously engage in further

:47:29. > :47:32.ceasefire negotiations? And do you think for a minute they'll stop

:47:33. > :47:35.bombing Aleppo while they are doing that? I'm very grateful to the

:47:36. > :47:41.honourable lady and I've thought about this a great deal and spoken

:47:42. > :47:45.to a number of experts on it and I have some suggestions that H would

:47:46. > :47:48.waish the make to the House and to put before the Secretary of State

:47:49. > :47:51.because we do want to be helpful. If the honourable lady would ghve me a

:47:52. > :47:58.moment, I will explain during my speech. Of course. If the pdace that

:47:59. > :48:06.we all want is not achievable, would she support the application of

:48:07. > :48:10.military force if needed? The question would be, I'm not `

:48:11. > :48:14.pacifist personally. I belidve in using military force where lilitary

:48:15. > :48:17.force can be effective and where we can achieve the ends we've

:48:18. > :48:22.identified and we know what it is that we wish to achieve. Personally,

:48:23. > :48:27.I believe that in a multilaxered multifaceted Civil War such as

:48:28. > :48:31.Syria, the last thing we nedd is more parties bombing. What we need

:48:32. > :48:37.is a ceasefire and in fact for people to draw back. I'm gr`teful to

:48:38. > :48:42.the Shadow Minister for Givhng way and while of course we all look for

:48:43. > :48:48.peace, would she not agree that sometimes backing down lookhng weak

:48:49. > :48:51.and hiding one's head does puite the reverse, it encouraging violence,

:48:52. > :48:56.treachery and the brutality that we are seeing today? Yes, I agree. But

:48:57. > :48:58.let's be strong about this `nd let's put forward a plan that might work.

:48:59. > :49:02.And if the honourable gentldman would give me a moment, I whll

:49:03. > :49:10.explain what it is that I'm suggesting. So Mr Speaker, H was

:49:11. > :49:14.recommending that despite the difficulties and anger that many

:49:15. > :49:19.parties feel, it is important that we have to work with the Russian

:49:20. > :49:23.government to restore the Kdrry Lavrov peace process, meaning

:49:24. > :49:27.securing and maintaining a ceasefire, isolating the Jihadis and

:49:28. > :49:31.opening safe channels for humanitarian aid and making that the

:49:32. > :49:36.basis to negotiate a lasting peace. Looking at the situation today, we

:49:37. > :49:39.accept that it couldn't look further away and it couldn't look more

:49:40. > :49:44.difficult but we have to have that goal in mind. It is the onlx

:49:45. > :49:47.conceivable solution, the only possible conceivable solution of

:49:48. > :49:54.bringing relief to the people of Aleppo. So how do we do it? We had a

:49:55. > :50:01.ceasefire, it was brutally blown apart by Russian and Syrian air

:50:02. > :50:09.power. I still haven't heard from my learned friend a clear, unepuivocal

:50:10. > :50:12.condemnation of rush and Assad actions and calling it as it is a

:50:13. > :50:17.war crime. I apologise to mx right honourable friend, I thought that

:50:18. > :50:21.was exactly what I had said. But in case there is any doubt, and

:50:22. > :50:25.obviously it's now in Hansard, of course the actions of the Rtssians

:50:26. > :50:31.can well be seen as war criles. There are a numb - of war crimes

:50:32. > :50:34.that have been committed during this terrible war -- number of w`r

:50:35. > :50:39.crimes. As I said at the outset there are the war crimes of Assad

:50:40. > :50:43.and Russia and there are thd war crimes of the Jihadis as well and in

:50:44. > :50:47.time we'll expect those war crimes to come before the internathonal

:50:48. > :50:50.courts and those people shotld and must be held to account and it was

:50:51. > :50:53.for that reason, I don't know if perhaps the honourable gentleman

:50:54. > :51:04.didn't hear me, I was urging the Government to support the French

:51:05. > :51:07.efforts to ensure that therd were taking these parties to

:51:08. > :51:11.international justice. Many people are getting impatient that H haven't

:51:12. > :51:16.yet put forward my plan so perhaps I won't take any more interventions at

:51:17. > :51:20.the moment so I can actuallx do it. The question is, what is thd only

:51:21. > :51:24.conSealable way of bringing relief to the people of Aleppo? I believe

:51:25. > :51:29.that it will require strong statesmanship on all sides `nd not

:51:30. > :51:34.more brinkmanship. We need to talk to experts in the field and their

:51:35. > :51:39.concern is not just how we stop the conflict as it stands, but `lso how

:51:40. > :51:44.to avoid it escalating further. Yesterday, one expert said to me, on

:51:45. > :51:50.the grounds, we are just ond bad decision away from Russia and

:51:51. > :51:52.American forces ending up in armed conflict, facing that chillhng

:51:53. > :51:57.prospect we must all work for the alternative.

:51:58. > :52:01.For that, we need to start with the proposal and the honourable member

:52:02. > :52:05.for Sutton Coldfield's alre`dy referred to it, and I respectfully

:52:06. > :52:12.agree with him, which is th`t we must look very carefully at the plan

:52:13. > :52:16.put forward by the UN, Syri` envoy. The Syrian envoy's personally and

:52:17. > :52:20.bravely promised that if thd Jihadi forces agree to leave the chty of

:52:21. > :52:26.Aleppo, he will personally dscort them from the siege to Idlib or

:52:27. > :52:30.wherever they wish to go. Stch a move would isolate the Jihadi

:52:31. > :52:35.fighters from the mod Ralls rebels inside Aleppo and would remove from

:52:36. > :52:41.the Russians and Syrian forces the pretext that they currently have for

:52:42. > :52:46.the Bam boardment -- bombardment of east Aleppo. It could provide the

:52:47. > :52:50.basis to restore talks on a ceasefire and on opening up

:52:51. > :52:56.humanitarian channels that we all wish to happen. There is a precedent

:52:57. > :52:59.for such a step in the way that the fighters were escorted out of the

:53:00. > :53:04.Homs and other towns in Syrha and while we must treat their assurances

:53:05. > :53:09.with caution, it's an appro`ch that Sergey Lavrov has said the Russians

:53:10. > :53:13.are ready to support and can persuade the Assad regime to agree

:53:14. > :53:16.to. So my question to the Foreign Secretary is, will the Government

:53:17. > :53:19.lend its support to the proposal put forward by the United Nations? The

:53:20. > :53:23.Government's yet to respond to this initiative at all and I belheve it's

:53:24. > :53:26.a serious one and does have some prospect of hope in it and should

:53:27. > :53:30.not be ignored. Will they persuade their frhend And

:53:31. > :53:35.US counterparts to do lick wise and will they seek to use this pragmatic

:53:36. > :53:41.proseling as a basis to restart talks? Finally, Mr Speaker, while we

:53:42. > :53:46.are rightly focussed on Syrha today, we know that in many other countries

:53:47. > :53:49.in the world, we'll look at what we say on Syria, we'll look at the

:53:50. > :53:54.values that we claim to uphold and ask whether we are true to the

:53:55. > :53:58.values when it comes to othdr countries and conflicts. Today we'll

:53:59. > :54:01.hear members on all sides of the House rightly condemning Russia and

:54:02. > :54:06.the Assad regime for the air strikes against civilian targets. Wd'll hear

:54:07. > :54:09.calls for independent UN investigations into breaches of

:54:10. > :54:13.international humanitarian law, we'll hear calls to take further

:54:14. > :54:17.action against Russia to oblige them to cease the bombardment. Mr

:54:18. > :54:23.Speaker, whilst that is all correct, if we say those things about Russia

:54:24. > :54:26.and Aleppo, we must be prep`red for what they say about Saudi Arabia and

:54:27. > :54:31.Yemen. We cannot condemn one and continue

:54:32. > :54:35.selling arms to the other. We cannot call for investigations into one and

:54:36. > :54:40.say that the other that we `re happy for them to investigate thelselves.

:54:41. > :54:44.We cannot pour scorn on the assurances of one that they have not

:54:45. > :54:48.hit civilian targets while `ccepting the assurances of the other. Most of

:54:49. > :54:51.all, Mr Speaker, we cannot cry for the people of Aleppo and thd

:54:52. > :54:55.suffering that they face whhle turning a blind eye to the lillion

:54:56. > :55:00.children in Yemen facing st`rvation today.

:55:01. > :55:04.I would ask the Foreign Secretary to tell the House how the actions they

:55:05. > :55:09.are proposing in Syria comp`re with the actions that they are t`king in

:55:10. > :55:14.Yemen. Mr Speaker, the suffdring of Aleppo has gone on too long. Every

:55:15. > :55:18.day it continues, we must rddouble our efforts to end it and wd suggest

:55:19. > :55:23.a four-point plan for the Government. We suggest that we begin

:55:24. > :55:31.with more statesmanship, less brinkmanship. Secondly, we lust

:55:32. > :55:36.adopt the UN plan to escort the Jihadis from Aleppo, thirdlx the

:55:37. > :55:42.Lavrov plan needs to be revhved and we must work together towards a

:55:43. > :55:46.lasting working peace and wd must deescalate overseas involvelent from

:55:47. > :55:49.the all 14 other nations involved, including ourselves. That is how we

:55:50. > :55:54.will create safe corridors for aid and that is how we will stop the

:55:55. > :56:02.destruction of Aleppo by Christmas and end the suffering of its people.

:56:03. > :56:05.THE SPEAKER: Order. Just before we proceed further, I've seen how many

:56:06. > :56:09.people wish to contribute and can I just say to the House that H don't

:56:10. > :56:13.want to impose a time limit on backbench speeches at this stage,

:56:14. > :56:19.but if by voluntary cooperation we can achieve the objective, that

:56:20. > :56:23.would be better. In each backbencher -- if each backbencher spokd for no

:56:24. > :56:28.more than seven minutes, evdrybody will get in and there should be

:56:29. > :56:31.general contentment. There's never universal contentment, but H'll

:56:32. > :56:38.settle for general contentmdnt. We'll be led in this mission by no

:56:39. > :56:44.less a figure than Mr Alast`ir Bert. I thank you Mr Speaker. I would like

:56:45. > :56:47.to start by congratulating ly right honourable friend for bringhng

:56:48. > :56:52.forward the debate and for opening it in such an extraordinary fashion.

:56:53. > :56:57.His deep personal commitment which is exhibited over a number of years

:56:58. > :57:00.to those in the Syrian national coalition and higher negoti`ting

:57:01. > :57:05.council and others has been evident in what he's said. He's long

:57:06. > :57:21.championed their needs and that was evident today.

:57:22. > :57:29.There are no easy answers, but a little bit of background will help.

:57:30. > :57:33.Can I also pay tribute to those in the Syria National coalition and

:57:34. > :57:43.those who have worked for pdace in Syria over a lengthy period of time.

:57:44. > :57:50.I met members of the Syrian National coalition. I met them in Paris and

:57:51. > :57:54.in London. Part of the background to this is to recognise that what

:57:55. > :57:58.happened in Syria today didn't just bring out of events in 2011. The

:57:59. > :58:02.Syrian regime has long been a repressive regime and the roots of

:58:03. > :58:07.this go back a long time and are very deep, but not to recognise the

:58:08. > :58:11.extraordinary courage of people in Syria to take a political c`se for

:58:12. > :58:18.change, which has been the cause of so many deaths in Syria over many

:58:19. > :58:23.decades to miss something. They have put forward consistently a plan for

:58:24. > :58:26.Syria, a Democratic Syria whth the engagement of all elements of the

:58:27. > :58:32.community and they have dond that for several years. Any future for

:58:33. > :58:38.Syria has got to recognise that the SNC and the negotiating Council have

:58:39. > :58:43.had a plan for a long time `nd I wish it had been listened to even

:58:44. > :58:48.earlier. I met members of the White helmets. At that time the Foreign

:58:49. > :58:56.Office was supporting them with training and they have done an

:58:57. > :58:59.extraordinary job in the ch`os and disaster of Syria. The work of the

:59:00. > :59:07.White helmets has been extr`ordinary and we need to pay tribute to them,

:59:08. > :59:11.and to people like the surgdons working in the hospitals in Syria

:59:12. > :59:17.and he writes eloquently on the subject. There are many parts of

:59:18. > :59:22.this to look at in terms of what has been achieved. We have playdd a part

:59:23. > :59:27.in trying to alleviate some of the suffering. There is little need I'm

:59:28. > :59:32.sure Mr Speaker to elaboratd further on the degree of suffering. We have

:59:33. > :59:38.seen it on the television. We have seen the brave films producdd by BBC

:59:39. > :59:44.panorama, giving cameras to people. It is what our excellent ambassador

:59:45. > :59:49.to the UN described last wedk as an onslaught of cruelty. An onslaught

:59:50. > :59:52.of cruelty in Aleppo. And an onslaught of cruelty which could not

:59:53. > :59:59.possibly be the work of Syrhan forces on their own. The tr`gedy of

:00:00. > :00:05.Aleppo in Syria is that it hs an entirely human construct, ddvoid of

:00:06. > :00:09.any natural disaster compondnt. It happened in front of our eyds. I is

:00:10. > :00:17.that witnessed whilst we were members of this house Rwand` and

:00:18. > :00:26.other situations in my time. It has happened because as much of an

:00:27. > :00:33.despite of international mechanisms that have been hidden behind as we

:00:34. > :00:39.watch them being stripped of their authority week by week, acthon by

:00:40. > :00:44.action in Syria and actuallx reduced to critical. If internation`l

:00:45. > :00:52.mechanisms cannot prevent an Aleppo, what can they now prevent? The other

:00:53. > :00:55.board gentleman was one of the best ministers in the Foreign Office over

:00:56. > :01:02.a long period of time and brings great knowledge to this house. I

:01:03. > :01:05.wonder if we could ask him because Syrians in my constituency said they

:01:06. > :01:09.want people to give them sole help. Does he think that because he has

:01:10. > :01:15.mentioned some of those international organisations that the

:01:16. > :01:27.UN is doing enough? If they're not, what's the alternative so wd can

:01:28. > :01:31.help? What Syria demonstratds is the failure of these international

:01:32. > :01:34.mechanisms now and if you h`ve a situation on the UN Securitx Council

:01:35. > :01:40.where Evita is continually played, what can you do? The argument that

:01:41. > :01:44.was rightly made a recognisdd on all sides of the house about thd damage

:01:45. > :01:48.done to the league of Nations when it struggled with authority, that is

:01:49. > :01:57.the point we have reached. Hf we cannot rely on these mechanhsms

:01:58. > :02:08.what are we now going to do. I'm trying to be fair to Mr Spe`ker by

:02:09. > :02:12.keeping it short. The veto will kill any planned stone dead. Maybe this

:02:13. > :02:17.is a chance of the General @ssembly to get some power and do solething

:02:18. > :02:20.about it? There may be international mechanisms that involve tall, but

:02:21. > :02:25.maybe actually there are other things we can do and that actually

:02:26. > :02:29.will be the mood of the house. A little bit of history, but ht

:02:30. > :02:33.provides a point of forward, we don't want to review it all. Assad

:02:34. > :02:39.knew exactly what he was dohng when the revolt started in 2011. Syria

:02:40. > :02:45.Islam, but he released prisoners Islam, but he released prisoners

:02:46. > :02:51.from his prisons to join radical Islamic groups so that he could

:02:52. > :02:57.create a vision of instilled a bid to -- provision of instabilhty. It

:02:58. > :03:10.allowed him to attack his own people. Be stepping back at that

:03:11. > :03:14.moment, the moment not to ddstroy a sad, but to get him back to the

:03:15. > :03:26.negotiating table by convincing him that something would stand hn his

:03:27. > :03:35.way was lost. Inaction has consequences and the inaction in

:03:36. > :03:39.2011 is Aleppo today? It is. In order to demonstrate that

:03:40. > :03:44.interventions have consequences but so do non-interventions. We talk

:03:45. > :03:47.about non-intervention, Syrha hasn't had non-intervention, its h`d

:03:48. > :03:57.integration from Russia, thd Iranians, Hezbollah. I ever talking

:03:58. > :04:08.to colleagues and saying is the ultimate victory 14 Assad and Putin?

:04:09. > :04:12.If it is, we need to think `bout it. The involvement of Russia is a

:04:13. > :04:24.crucial part of this. Russi` needs to understand that savagery stokes

:04:25. > :04:29.terrorism, it doesn't end it. Its efforts to deal with it of failing.

:04:30. > :04:35.Part of this discussion has got to be very clear that what is happening

:04:36. > :04:41.and what Russia is doing will fuel the terrorism of the future and will

:04:42. > :04:44.do nothing to prevent it. What we can do... Indeed. Thank you

:04:45. > :04:50.forgiving way. Does he agred that one of the reasons some of ts are

:04:51. > :04:54.concerned about the governmdnt approach to Russia is that hn Syria

:04:55. > :04:59.they are not targeting Isis the number of air strikes against Isis

:05:00. > :05:04.has gone down by 10% in the last year. It's clear they have `nother

:05:05. > :05:15.agenda and they should be c`lled out on it as soon as possible. Russia's

:05:16. > :05:21.agenda is mixed. Once it is to provide a bullwhip of radic`l Islam

:05:22. > :05:26.in its own country. Also, to demonstrate it is a power. Thirdly,

:05:27. > :05:32.it wants to consolidate its own interests that go deep, but it is

:05:33. > :05:38.that vacuum that is being sdas. What do we do? I turn to what my right

:05:39. > :05:43.honourable friend said at the end of his remarks. It's about an dffort of

:05:44. > :05:46.will. The fundamental failure in Syria in the last few years is to

:05:47. > :05:52.give an impression that no one would stand up against the attacks on

:05:53. > :05:58.people in Syria because we have lost the will. Not to advance an

:05:59. > :06:05.ideological agenda, but we have lost the will to protect people. Whether

:06:06. > :06:10.to enforce and no flies on. Trying to protect people on the ground But

:06:11. > :06:13.that be challenged by the powers of Syria and Russia, or would that be

:06:14. > :06:18.the point at which they would recognise no more killing and

:06:19. > :06:26.proceed on the way of negothation and please? That is actuallx the

:06:27. > :06:31.point we have now reached. Does he agree with me that the reason why we

:06:32. > :06:35.haven't managed to secure no-fly zone so far is people are

:06:36. > :06:39.understandably concerned th`t this would escalate tensions and if

:06:40. > :06:44.conflict with Russia? But what is actually being proposed is that the

:06:45. > :06:51.answer to any air attacks against civilians in there no-fly zones

:06:52. > :06:58.would be carefully strikes `gainst Assad military assets only `nd that

:06:59. > :07:04.that is what is being proposed and could provide a real answer to

:07:05. > :07:12.protecting Syrian civilians. That is exactly right. Those who ard killing

:07:13. > :07:17.civilians in Aleppo are relxing on the fact that we fair escal`tion and

:07:18. > :07:23.we worry and therefore people do nothing. We did not know wh`t the

:07:24. > :07:28.consequences of 2013 would `nd we were worried about intervention We

:07:29. > :07:32.know now, and accordingly wd know what will happen in Aleppo over the

:07:33. > :07:38.next few months if nothing hs done. That is the part we have re`ched.

:07:39. > :07:43.Ultimately it is an act of will If determined. You do the unspdakable

:07:44. > :07:47.is met with moral argument but little else, then the deterlined

:07:48. > :07:51.falls will win. We have reached a point where we have to decl`re, and

:07:52. > :07:55.I look forward to the Foreign Secretary making this clear, that

:07:56. > :08:09.that is a point beyond which we are no longer prepared to go. In terms

:08:10. > :08:12.of Lent, the switch that was made, I know the spokesperson will seek to

:08:13. > :08:17.imitate that. I am aware of what my colleagues want to get in. H

:08:18. > :08:24.congratulate the right Honotrable member from Sutton Coldfield for

:08:25. > :08:28.securing the debate. It is `n emergency debate in every sdnse of

:08:29. > :08:32.the word. It is urgent and necessary for us to have the debate bdcause

:08:33. > :08:38.the situation in Aleppo and Syria has dramatically worsen frol the

:08:39. > :08:50.already catastrophic state the conflict has brought about. The

:08:51. > :09:02.bombing of the UN, the -- of the UN convoy last month is a war crime and

:09:03. > :09:10.should be justice. We are in a situation today where 275,000 people

:09:11. > :09:14.in is that Aleppo faced daily bombings. The UN Secretary General

:09:15. > :09:23.described the situation is worse than a slaughterhouse. Over 1

:09:24. > :09:27.million people have been killed since the conflict began in 201 , so

:09:28. > :09:33.we shouldn't be surprised at the comparisons with Rwanda. It's right

:09:34. > :09:40.that time has been made for today's debate and I want to considdr

:09:41. > :09:46.responses so far in the UK `nd from around the world and the options

:09:47. > :09:50.that are available. The SNP has been consistently opposed military action

:09:51. > :09:53.and we have consistently called for a negotiated settlement and

:09:54. > :09:57.significant humanitarian intervention. When this havd debated

:09:58. > :09:59.whether or not to join the bombing campaign we warned that becoming

:10:00. > :10:05.party to the conflict would reduce the UK's ability to become `n

:10:06. > :10:11.arbiter in any resolution and so it has proven to be. We welcomd the

:10:12. > :10:17.response in terms of humanitarian support, but there is furthdr to go.

:10:18. > :10:22.What people in Syria need is bread, not bombs. If we have the tdchnology

:10:23. > :10:40.to drop bombs, surely we have the technology to deliver bread and aid.

:10:41. > :10:46.In March 2013... The First Linister accepted an invitation to host an

:10:47. > :10:59.International Women's Day stmmit that took place in Edinburgh to

:11:00. > :11:06.support Syrian women. Will xou give way? Yes. All of us want to see a

:11:07. > :11:12.negotiated end to the probldms in Syria, but would he not accdpt that

:11:13. > :11:18.the timid approach by both @merica and other allied forces has led to

:11:19. > :11:23.the encouragement of the Russians to escalate the military involvement

:11:24. > :11:30.and the brutality of the military involvement as well? I will come

:11:31. > :11:32.onto some of this in terms of the geopolitics and the relationship

:11:33. > :11:37.between Russia and the Unitdd States. The answer has not been for

:11:38. > :11:41.the UK to dive in and continue to add to the chaos of the bombing

:11:42. > :11:45.taking place. The Scottish Government has continued to try to

:11:46. > :11:57.play a role. It announced it will contribute 3000 hundred -- ?300 000

:11:58. > :12:05.to a project that serves to resolve conflict. We in Scotland and the

:12:06. > :12:11.Scottish Government have bedn keen to make a contribution wherdver

:12:12. > :12:15.possible and many people across the country have joined in the dfforts

:12:16. > :12:26.to welcome refugees, especi`lly from Syria, who have come here is

:12:27. > :12:31.Russia and the US have diffdrent aims.

:12:32. > :12:35.There is a concerning risk that the situation becomes a proxy for

:12:36. > :12:40.broader tensions between thd two countries and indeed further black

:12:41. > :12:44.sliding and international rdlations more generally. That's why the

:12:45. > :12:48.member is right to we the ilpact of the stalemate for the role of the UN

:12:49. > :12:53.as a whole. It's never been more necessary for the United Nations to

:12:54. > :12:57.play a role and yet in this area at least it seems the impasse has never

:12:58. > :13:01.been more difficult to breach. There have been calls quite rightly for

:13:02. > :13:03.the General Assembly to be lore outspoken where the Securitx Council

:13:04. > :13:07.cannot reach agreement and that would be a start, but the G8 still

:13:08. > :13:12.lacks the teeth of the Security Council. The UK seat on the Security

:13:13. > :13:16.Council is supposed to be one of the great defining assets of thd union

:13:17. > :13:21.that puts the great into Grdat Britain. Whilst I welcome the strong

:13:22. > :13:23.words of the UK's represent`tive in recent meetings, strong words

:13:24. > :13:28.increasingly are not enough. It must be for the UN and the international

:13:29. > :13:31.Syria support group to facilitate a peace settlement and the UK

:13:32. > :13:36.Government should be making sure the UN has the mandate and support that

:13:37. > :13:40.it needs. In many meantime, there must be more the Government can do

:13:41. > :13:43.independently or with allies. We have the technology to drop bombs,

:13:44. > :13:47.surely we have the technology to deliver aid.

:13:48. > :13:51.What we also need is the abhlity, stability and permission to provide

:13:52. > :13:54.aid, especially into areas controlled by the Assad reghme.

:13:55. > :13:58.Negotiating safe space for that ought to be part of the UK's

:13:59. > :14:02.diplomatic efforts and if that means a no-fly zone could help, that

:14:03. > :14:07.should be explored but it ndeds to be properly enforced.

:14:08. > :14:12.Getting aid, medical food, nonfood relief into the country, into Aleppo

:14:13. > :14:16.in particular, should be thd number one priority for humanitari`n

:14:17. > :14:21.agencies in the country. If the big and multilateral agencies are having

:14:22. > :14:25.difficulty with this, more control should be given to the commtnity

:14:26. > :14:31.based organisations so I wotld join in the trick yews that have been

:14:32. > :14:34.paid to the white helmets, thoroughly deserved of their Nobel

:14:35. > :14:37.Prize nomination. If that work can be supported on the ground, it

:14:38. > :14:42.should be acted on. Support has to be provided in the refugee camps in

:14:43. > :14:46.the country and surrounding areas. I was victh visited on Friday by a

:14:47. > :14:49.constituent of mine, Tony Collins, a former constituent I should say

:14:50. > :14:54.because he now lives in Leb`non assisting with the aid effort on the

:14:55. > :14:57.ground in the camps and he describes the situation no longer as `n

:14:58. > :15:01.emergency but endemic having a major impact as we have heard frol members

:15:02. > :15:05.on the future of the countrx of Lebanon. So UK human tear whthdrawn

:15:06. > :15:08.support has to provide emergency relief but it has to be looking at

:15:09. > :15:12.the long-term economic development and the impact that the profound

:15:13. > :15:23.movements of people are havhng. That's why I would see the Linister

:15:24. > :15:28.for Difficult. I said many times that where conflatings a pecks of

:15:29. > :15:35.security and aid spending mhght be permitted under OECD rules, it's not

:15:36. > :15:39.what is expected. -- DFID. The targets should be met and

:15:40. > :15:42.accounted for separately and the situation in Syria in particular

:15:43. > :15:49.shows why this is necessary. DFID also needs to think about some

:15:50. > :15:57.of the long-term impacts on its policies and consequentials. There

:15:58. > :16:01.is a long-term impact that light not be seen when the need is vastly

:16:02. > :16:07.increase egg of withdrawal of aid. Support for refugees here ndeds to

:16:08. > :16:11.increase as well. The UK's committed to 20,000 over five years, nowhere

:16:12. > :16:15.near the fair share that we should be taking. I'm grateful to the

:16:16. > :16:20.honourable gentleman. Just on that point, whilst the UK Governlent is

:16:21. > :16:26.right to focus efforts on providing aid in the region, the refugees we

:16:27. > :16:30.have agreed to take here contain only 2% of Christian refugeds,

:16:31. > :16:34.despite the fact the religious minorities constituted up to 12 of

:16:35. > :16:40.the Syrian population. Would he agree with me that we do nedd to

:16:41. > :16:44.make more of an effort to rdach out the frightened religious in Syria?

:16:45. > :16:47.Yes, the persecuted minorithes need to be given special attention and

:16:48. > :16:53.the House has already given the Government a mandate to act on

:16:54. > :16:56.genocide of the Yazdi community The support provided for refugeds needs

:16:57. > :16:59.to go beyond meeting the phxsical requirements. I have constituents

:17:00. > :17:02.who're traumatised by the experiences they've had in Syria and

:17:03. > :17:07.elsewhere and mental health support I think is going to be incrdasingly

:17:08. > :17:12.important. So I am conscious of time, Mr Speaker, the Government

:17:13. > :17:15.says it's leading in terms of humanitarian response but that

:17:16. > :17:18.doesn't mean it can't go further. It must rethink its military

:17:19. > :17:22.objectives. We were told in December last year that UK air strikds would

:17:23. > :17:29.cut off the head of the snake, that the chaos has only increased is the

:17:30. > :17:34.case. The military strategy needs to be rethought. It needs to commit to

:17:35. > :17:38.working across borders to fhnd lasting, sustainable peace. While

:17:39. > :17:41.that goes on, the aid effort must be stepped up for the sake of the

:17:42. > :17:48.people in Aleppo, Syria, thd region and around the world.

:17:49. > :17:59.THE Thank you, Mr Speaker. Ht's a pleasure to follow on for the member

:18:00. > :18:04.from Glasgow North. I'll kedp my remarks brief. I want to st`rt by

:18:05. > :18:07.congratulating my right honourable friend the member for Sutton

:18:08. > :18:11.Coldfield for securing this debate and commend him for the way in which

:18:12. > :18:16.he made the case yesterday `nd the way in which he's brought the matter

:18:17. > :18:18.to the House's attention. It was a powerful, passionate but pr`ctical

:18:19. > :18:21.speech that my right honour`ble friend made and I trust that the

:18:22. > :18:25.frontbench will have listendd to every word and will be conshdering

:18:26. > :18:27.the specific recommendations and suggestions that you have brought

:18:28. > :18:32.before us. My right honourable friend was exactly right to describe

:18:33. > :18:38.the situation yesterday when he spoke of the situation in Aleppo as

:18:39. > :18:41.an unfolding humanitarian catastrophe which merits thd urgent

:18:42. > :18:44.consideration by this House. I share the deep, deep concern exprdssed by

:18:45. > :18:48.my right honourable friend `nd I believe this House should bd sending

:18:49. > :18:53.the strongest possible sign`l at this time both to our own Government

:18:54. > :18:56.and to other Governments th`t the present suffering of innocent

:18:57. > :19:01.civilians in Aleppo is unacceptable, that the criminal acts of the Syrian

:19:02. > :19:06.and Russian forces are unacceptable, not least in the bombing of

:19:07. > :19:09.hospitals, schools and humanitarian supplies, and that the seemhng

:19:10. > :19:13.impotence of the international community in the face of such acts

:19:14. > :19:18.must not and cannot be allowed to continue. As the debate on the

:19:19. > :19:21.statement made yesterday by my right honourable friend the member for

:19:22. > :19:25.Halton Price demonstrated, the attention of this House in the

:19:26. > :19:29.months ahead will be consumdd overwhelmingly and necessarhly by

:19:30. > :19:33.the issues relating to our withdrawal from the European Union.

:19:34. > :19:37.We'll debate an argue about how best we protect our national intdrests in

:19:38. > :19:41.that Brexit process and how we give our nation the best chance of future

:19:42. > :19:46.prosperity in order to protdct the quality of our own lives and those

:19:47. > :19:49.of our children. We'll even have debates about the debates that we'll

:19:50. > :19:53.have. But this debate today, Mr Speaker, I believe demonstr`tes this

:19:54. > :19:58.House will also remember its duty to look outwards and to have rdgard for

:19:59. > :20:01.that part of humanity that does not live within our own borders. With

:20:02. > :20:06.you in the chair, Mr Speaker, I m confident this House will always

:20:07. > :20:08.make time available for us to speak with clarity and unity when

:20:09. > :20:13.confronted with suffering on the scale of what we have witnessed in

:20:14. > :20:16.Syria recently. We shouldn't underestimate the interest that the

:20:17. > :20:22.outside world takes in what is said in this place. A number of ts would

:20:23. > :20:27.have received e-mails today from groups from within Syria itself

:20:28. > :20:31.who're watching this debate and what that clarity -- want that clarity

:20:32. > :20:35.and unity expressed by membdrs here. Mr Speaker, I want to pay tribute to

:20:36. > :20:37.the clarity of voice that otr own Foreign Secretary's already brought

:20:38. > :20:41.to bear on the international stage on the subject of the Syrian

:20:42. > :20:45.conflict. He was one of the first, the very first to describe the

:20:46. > :20:51.attacks on Red Crescent aid convoy three weeks ago as a war crhme, for

:20:52. > :20:53.that was exactly what they were and to directly implicate Russi`n

:20:54. > :20:58.forces. In commending the Foreign Secretary, can I ask if he'd update

:20:59. > :21:03.the House during his closing remarks on the most recent discussions he's

:21:04. > :21:06.had with foreign minister L`vrov on Aleppo, what further represdntations

:21:07. > :21:10.he plans to make and would the Foreign Secretary leave us hn no

:21:11. > :21:13.doubt whatsoever in this Hotse of his determination to ensure the

:21:14. > :21:19.Russians know we'll keep up the pressure in the wake of the illegal

:21:20. > :21:24.acts in Syria and that, as the days slip by, our anger and disgtst at

:21:25. > :21:28.the attacks that they're responsible for will not subside. As already has

:21:29. > :21:31.been mentioned, President Hollande of France has said in the l`st 4

:21:32. > :21:34.hours that there should be ` role for the International Criminal Court

:21:35. > :21:38.in holding Moscow to account for its actions. So what considerathon is my

:21:39. > :21:43.right honourable friend, thd Foreign Secretary, giving to this stggestion

:21:44. > :21:47.and any other processes, including at the UN for upholding

:21:48. > :21:51.international law. Thank yot, Mr Speaker. On the matter of the

:21:52. > :21:56.International Criminal Court, I m very worried by the thought that any

:21:57. > :22:00.action will be hamstrung by Russia in the Security Council which in

:22:01. > :22:05.some way controls the International Criminal Court. I speak havhng given

:22:06. > :22:10.evidence in five trials there. My right honourable friend hs right

:22:11. > :22:17.to raise these concerns. Thd International Criminal Court has not

:22:18. > :22:20.proved itself in many respects as effective for upholding

:22:21. > :22:23.international. We have a new opportunity, as my right honourable

:22:24. > :22:27.friend the member for North East Bedford said, this boils down to

:22:28. > :22:33.effort of will on the part of the international community and I'll

:22:34. > :22:39.address that point a bit later on. So... Would the honourable gentleman

:22:40. > :22:43.also recognise that one of the problems with the International

:22:44. > :22:46.Criminal Court is that therd is simply not enough countries and some

:22:47. > :22:50.very unfluent usual countrids that are not members of it, perh`ps

:22:51. > :22:55.international leave from sole of our larger friends would be of great

:22:56. > :22:58.assistance. The opposition spokeswoman makes a very important

:22:59. > :23:03.point there, Mr Speaker. Thdre are far too many countries not signed up

:23:04. > :23:10.to the International Crimin`l Court, one of the jobs of our diplomacy in

:23:11. > :23:17.the months and years ahead hs to encouragegreer buying into the

:23:18. > :23:21.criminal court. Would my right honourable friend update us on the

:23:22. > :23:28.discussions he's having with Francois Hollande. I welcomd the

:23:29. > :23:32.constructive and business lhke tone struck by the Prime Minister when

:23:33. > :23:35.she met with President Putin at the beginning of September at the G 0.

:23:36. > :23:40.It's right that our initial posture should be one of reaching ott and

:23:41. > :23:45.seeking improvement relations with Moscow. But one can be forghven Mr

:23:46. > :23:49.Speaker, for thinking that Putin is currently taking the West for fools,

:23:50. > :23:51.ourselves included, believing that the distractions of a US

:23:52. > :23:54.presidential election and Brexit mean that there is not the

:23:55. > :24:00.international interest or rdsolve to try to prevent him from the brutal

:24:01. > :24:04.and so far effective power play he's undertaking in Syria. Aleppo is a

:24:05. > :24:07.litmus test of whether Russha wants to play a constructive role in the

:24:08. > :24:11.region and whether it's willing to work in collaboration with the

:24:12. > :24:15.international coalition to bring peace to Syria, acknowledging that

:24:16. > :24:19.its own interests may be different in key respects. The events of

:24:20. > :24:24.recent weeks demonstrate it fails that test and that Russian's

:24:25. > :24:30.behaviour is not consistent with that of a responsible actor, it

:24:31. > :24:32.behaves instead like a thuggish gangster regime flirting

:24:33. > :24:36.international law at will. So we can be business like in our rel`tions

:24:37. > :24:40.with Russia yes but that cannot mean business as usual when Russha

:24:41. > :24:44.behaves so shamelessly in both the attacks on innocent civilians in

:24:45. > :24:49.Aleppo and then in defeating attempts at the UN to securd some

:24:50. > :24:56.respite and hostilities. Mr Speaker, the bombing campaign amounts to a

:24:57. > :25:00.war against children, almost half since the current attacks bdgan have

:25:01. > :25:08.been children as mortars have landed on hospitals and broken through you

:25:09. > :25:13.willing bunkers which somethmes also service schools -- undergrotnd

:25:14. > :25:17.bunkers. Images of innocence amidst the

:25:18. > :25:20.conflict. The images though that we should hold before us I belheve are

:25:21. > :25:25.the ones we have seen in thd last fortnight of the lifeless dtsty

:25:26. > :25:28.broken limbed bodies of children being removed, exhumed from bombed

:25:29. > :25:32.out buildings and piles of rubble. This is indeed a war against

:25:33. > :25:35.children. And to conclude, Lr Speaker, the point has been made

:25:36. > :25:39.several times this afternoon that there are no easy solutionlds in

:25:40. > :25:43.front of us and indeed my rhght honourable friend the member for

:25:44. > :25:52.Sutton Coldfield's described it in some detail the complexity of the

:25:53. > :25:54.children in front of us. Thd honourable member for Bedfordshire

:25:55. > :25:58.made a powerful point when he talked about effort of will and thd need

:25:59. > :26:00.for the international community with leadership from ourselves, Lr

:26:01. > :26:05.Speaker, to show that there is the will, that there is the resolve to

:26:06. > :26:10.make progress on this and there is the will and resolve to hold Russia

:26:11. > :26:13.in particular to account for its actions and its responsibilhties as

:26:14. > :26:19.the key player at the moment, at this moment in time in achidving

:26:20. > :26:23.some respite from the bombings to secure an enforced ceasefird,

:26:24. > :26:26.including safe passage for humanitarian supplies with `llowing

:26:27. > :26:31.some room for diplomatic processes which could stand a chance possibly

:26:32. > :26:33.of achieving some lasting pdace We have had practical suggestions put

:26:34. > :26:37.before us, Mr Speaker, this afternoon, of a no-fly zone, we have

:26:38. > :26:42.also had discussion about economic sanctions as a way of bringhng more

:26:43. > :26:46.pressure to bear on Russia, I'm particularly interested in hearing

:26:47. > :26:51.from the Foreign Secretary, his response to the two suggesthons of

:26:52. > :26:52.what more we can do as a Government to show increased international

:26:53. > :27:01.resolve and will. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Much has been

:27:02. > :27:07.written about Syria and Aleppo over the last few months. Some of us have

:27:08. > :27:14.been left because there was no Parliament here, to Twitter our

:27:15. > :27:21.concern, are continuing concern day after day after day. About the

:27:22. > :27:27.events unfolding in that cotntry. And one of the best pieces H have

:27:28. > :27:32.seen recently was in the Gu`rdian on Saturday. It is headed, we `re

:27:33. > :27:43.watching as Aleppo is destroyed Where is the rage? It is a very

:27:44. > :27:51.very poignant article and I suggest people have a look at it. And that

:27:52. > :27:57.is the question, where is the rage? Where are the demonstrations? The

:27:58. > :28:04.ones we have seen on so manx occasions in the past. I had taken

:28:05. > :28:10.part in them myself. Where were those demonstrations? I want to see,

:28:11. > :28:16.and I challenge people listdning to this now, let's have 2 millhon, 3

:28:17. > :28:23.million, 4 million, outside the Russian Embassy. Day after day after

:28:24. > :28:28.day. Let's show what we think of their actions in Syria and their

:28:29. > :28:38.refusal to bring peace to the country. Russia use these -, used to

:28:39. > :28:42.carpet bombing tactics in Grozny, and we all know what happendd there.

:28:43. > :28:49.The West cannot stay styling to We know how this could end. -- stay

:28:50. > :28:58.silent. The current Special Envoy for the UN do Syria is an old friend

:28:59. > :29:04.of mine. We worked together on Iraq in the past. He has warned that

:29:05. > :29:11.rebel held eastern Aleppo could face total destruction by Christlas, and

:29:12. > :29:14.thousands of civilians, Syrhan civilians, not terrorists, Syrian

:29:15. > :29:20.civilians could die if the current assault by Russia and Syrian forces

:29:21. > :29:26.on the city is not stopped. He called for the shelling of the city

:29:27. > :29:30.to stop immediately and for the UN to be allowed to take aid stpplies

:29:31. > :29:35.into rebel held areas. Eastdrn Aleppo has not received any

:29:36. > :29:40.humanitarian assistance in the last three months. Food and medical

:29:41. > :29:47.supplies are running low to a dangerous level. He also offered to

:29:48. > :29:53.go to the besieged area of the city and personally escort Al-Qadda

:29:54. > :30:00.fighters out himself in an `ppeal to stop the current bombing calpaign.

:30:01. > :30:07.At least 250,000 people are thought to be trapped in eastern Aldppo

:30:08. > :30:14.where rebel supply lines ard cut off by President Assad's troops in July.

:30:15. > :30:17.According to the UN, the renewed aerial and ground campaign to retake

:30:18. > :30:22.opposition held areas has ldft hundreds of civilians dead `nd

:30:23. > :30:30.damaged hospitals, water pl`nts and bakeries. Medecins Sans Frontieres

:30:31. > :30:36.reported 23 attacks on medical facilities in eastern Aleppo since

:30:37. > :30:42.July. All of us have seen on the news and other programmes the

:30:43. > :30:49.bravery of the doctors and nurses in those hospitals, probably only in

:30:50. > :30:56.the one remaining hospital, saving lives by video link. And we are very

:30:57. > :31:02.grateful to the British doctor in particular who has been doing that.

:31:03. > :31:10.A psychologist on the ground has said 75% of children in Aleppo have

:31:11. > :31:16.post-traumatic stress disorder. 50% of those between the ages of nine

:31:17. > :31:22.and 13 are incontinent as a result. More than 100 children were killed

:31:23. > :31:28.only last week. The UN Secrdtary of State, John Kerry, has said the

:31:29. > :31:32.bombing campaign was a targdted strategy to terrorise civilhans and

:31:33. > :31:36.to kill anybody and everybody who was in the way of Syrian and Russian

:31:37. > :31:44.military objectives. The UN Secretary-General has called eastern

:31:45. > :31:49.Aleppo worse than a slaughtdrhouse. Syria, backed by Russia, saxs it is

:31:50. > :31:55.targeting militants in the city who used civilians as human shidlds The

:31:56. > :32:07.Special Envoy has pointed ott that the presence of about 900 former

:32:08. > :32:10.current militants cannot justify the destruction brought on the city in

:32:11. > :32:17.the last two weeks following the collapse of the US Russian brokered

:32:18. > :32:23.ceasefire. It was also said there is only one thing we are not rdady to

:32:24. > :32:30.do, be passive, resign oursdlves to another Srebrenica, another Rwanda,

:32:31. > :32:35.which we are ready to recognise will happen in front of us that tnless

:32:36. > :32:39.something takes place. He w`rned that history would judge decision

:32:40. > :32:43.makers in Damascus and Moscow for the military imposed on eastern

:32:44. > :32:48.Aleppo's citizens through fhghting. Our own Foreign Secretary, sitting

:32:49. > :32:56.there, as well as the US Secretary of State, has a -- has accused

:32:57. > :32:59.Russia of committing war crhmes and said the country should be

:33:00. > :33:02.accountable for allegedly bombing aid convoys in Syria. We do not have

:33:03. > :33:08.to wait for the Internation`l Criminal Court, the organis`tion I

:33:09. > :33:14.chair collected evidence on the Iraqi war crimes years before they

:33:15. > :33:21.were heard, and that can be done again, it can be done from the

:33:22. > :33:26.Foreign Office, for example. And the testimony we collected from hundreds

:33:27. > :33:30.of people about Saddam Hussdin's regime was subsequently used in the

:33:31. > :33:36.trials in Baghdad. I sat thdre myself to hear some of the people

:33:37. > :33:43.accused of those dreadful w`r crimes being judged. So, it can be done. US

:33:44. > :33:48.attempts to establish a long lasting ceasefire in further talks have been

:33:49. > :33:54.thwarted. The US having fin`lly broken off talks with Russi`, citing

:33:55. > :34:01.Moscow's unacceptable backing for Assad's Aleppo campaign. Thd attempt

:34:02. > :34:03.only this weekend to pass a Spanish sponsored UN Security Counchl

:34:04. > :34:07.resolution which called for an end to the bombing of the city by Syrian

:34:08. > :34:14.and Russian jets was vetoed by Russia. Russia argued the dhstorted

:34:15. > :34:19.resolution would provide cover to terrorists. During the heatdd

:34:20. > :34:29.exchanges at the Security Council meeting, the UK ambassador to the

:34:30. > :34:34.UN, who I also worked with for a period of time, said, this castle

:34:35. > :34:40.cannot stand by while such lisery is meted out on the people of @leppo.

:34:41. > :34:45.Yet, thanks to you, Mr Preshdent, that is the Russian President, that

:34:46. > :34:47.is exactly what we are doing. Angst your actions today, Syrians will

:34:48. > :34:57.continue to lose their lives in Aleppo and beyond to Russian and

:34:58. > :34:59.Syrian bombing. Please stop now So, what is the international community

:35:00. > :35:06.going to do? We have heard several suggestions. How are we going to

:35:07. > :35:10.prevent another Rwanda? If Russia will not end its military aggression

:35:11. > :35:16.in Syria in support of Preshdent Assad and there is no sign that it

:35:17. > :35:20.will any time soon, with thd Russian Parliament having voted recdntly to

:35:21. > :35:26.give Putin authority to keep warplanes in Syria indefinitely and

:35:27. > :35:31.the Russian military warning it would use anti-aircraft missiles to

:35:32. > :35:38.attack any US jet that tried to strike the Syrian regime, are we

:35:39. > :35:45.doomed to watch this unfoldhng tragedy, a genocide in the laking?

:35:46. > :35:48.Will be continue to feel utterly impotent? I would like to stggest

:35:49. > :35:54.very quickly, Mr Speaker, a few things. These have been adv`nced

:35:55. > :36:02.from a number of quarters hdre today. To better protect civilians

:36:03. > :36:09.now and in the future. Civilian protection has to be prioritised.

:36:10. > :36:15.First, we need to give assistance to Syrian civilians in eastern Aleppo

:36:16. > :36:20.and other besieged areas, f`st. It is now all of four months shnce the

:36:21. > :36:24.international Syria support group set a deadline of June the 0st for

:36:25. > :36:31.air drops and airlifts to bdsieged communities under siege. A proposal

:36:32. > :36:38.the UK took credit for. In those four months there has not bden one

:36:39. > :36:43.single airdrop or airlift to territory under siege by thd Assad

:36:44. > :36:53.regime. As of October the 5th, there have been 131 UN air drops to a

:36:54. > :36:59.place under siege by Isis and 1 0 for a list to the regiment held

:37:00. > :37:06.airport. There have also bedn air drops or regime aircraft to the

:37:07. > :37:11.besieged regime towns. However, despite the UN's large numbdr of air

:37:12. > :37:15.drops and airlifts, to regile held territories, the Assad regile will

:37:16. > :37:20.not grant the UN permission to drop aid to the areas where the regime is

:37:21. > :37:24.besieging. As well as allevhating human suffering in the short term,

:37:25. > :37:33.air drops to these areas cotld play an important part in allevi`ting

:37:34. > :37:36.human suffering in the longdr term and breaking the Assad regile's

:37:37. > :37:41.channels of aid. The UK Govdrnment should therefore now ensure that its

:37:42. > :37:46.own proposal should be fullx implemented. It has the expdrience

:37:47. > :37:52.and the capacity to airdrop food and medical aid to besieged comlunities

:37:53. > :37:58.from its bases in Cyprus. The UK has the military might to deter attacks

:37:59. > :38:07.on its aircraft. Suitable p`rtners on the ground are available. There

:38:08. > :38:12.are organisations who can coordinate drop zones and enable a solttion.

:38:13. > :38:18.Putin is already carrying ott air drops every day to help those he

:38:19. > :38:22.protects. The option of delhvering air drops and airlifts by the UK

:38:23. > :38:27.military and its allies shotld be understood not just as a logistical

:38:28. > :38:33.second-best opinion for delhvering aid, but as a means of pressing for

:38:34. > :38:35.a proper ground access for humanitarian organisations. Second,

:38:36. > :38:42.the international community should and could institute a no-flx zone

:38:43. > :38:49.for Syrian helicopters. It hs the Syrian helicopters who drop the

:38:50. > :38:53.illegal barrel bombs full of napalm, chemical weapons and high

:38:54. > :38:59.explosives. It is estimated that such a no-fly zone could reduce

:39:00. > :39:07.civilian deaths by roughly 80%. I shall always be grateful to John

:39:08. > :39:13.Major, at the time I was sh`dow international De an secretary, I

:39:14. > :39:18.went to Kurdistan -- Intern`tional development, and was asked hf I

:39:19. > :39:22.could ask the then Prime Minister to institute no-fly zones. I w`nt to

:39:23. > :39:27.see him and within a week, there were no-fly zones in place. It can

:39:28. > :39:33.be done, it has been done and it could be done again. Third, to

:39:34. > :39:38.ensure that civilians in Syria, Russians and Syrians responsible for

:39:39. > :39:44.this cruel and constant bombing are ultimately held to account. The UK

:39:45. > :39:51.should track Russian and Assad regime aircraft and publish regular

:39:52. > :39:56.reports on which aircraft from which base are responsible for each

:39:57. > :40:01.potential war crime. The UK has the military assets in the region today

:40:02. > :40:05.which could make a difference. An aircraft tracking system whhch named

:40:06. > :40:10.and shamed Russian and Syri`n aircraft bombing hospitals light

:40:11. > :40:19.encourage Putin to stop the slaughter. There are alreadx UK

:40:20. > :40:27.aircraft based in Syria who could monitor and police such a sxstem.

:40:28. > :40:34.All those responsible in thd chain of command risk being implicated.

:40:35. > :40:40.Russia will be able to use the Security Council veto to block any

:40:41. > :40:45.attempt to refer it or Preshdent Assad's regime to the International

:40:46. > :40:48.Criminal Court. Other means of obtaining justice should be export.

:40:49. > :40:53.The UN commission on human rights earlier this week called thd

:40:54. > :40:57.countries to be strict on their veto powers, if they blocked war crimes

:40:58. > :41:02.investigations and stop a proposal to deny a possibility of veto in

:41:03. > :41:06.situations of mass atrocitids is also an idea supported by a vast

:41:07. > :41:14.majority of countries round the world. Finally, in the light of the

:41:15. > :41:17.UN Secretary-General -- the circuitry and the UN Security

:41:18. > :41:22.Council's intransigence, thd UN General summary should hold an

:41:23. > :41:29.emergency meeting to demand an end to unlawful attacks on civilians in

:41:30. > :41:34.Aleppo and explore other vidws for accountability. We have to lake it

:41:35. > :41:38.crystal clear to the Syrian and Russian governments that we think

:41:39. > :41:44.their actions are deplorabld. We need to speak up for hand on the

:41:45. > :41:49.half of our common humanity. So I would therefore call once again on

:41:50. > :41:55.everyone who cares about thd plight of Syrian civilians to pickdt the

:41:56. > :42:01.Russian Embassy in London, `nd in other capitals around the world

:42:02. > :42:06.from today. 2 million, 3 million, 4 million people, it can be done, it

:42:07. > :42:12.has been done in the past. That should carry on. Until the bombing

:42:13. > :42:14.campaign stops and all the relevant players are forced to get around the

:42:15. > :42:22.table to end this horrible war. Thank you, it's a pleasure to follow

:42:23. > :42:25.my honourable friend who has been such a powerful consistent `nd

:42:26. > :42:31.long-standing voice on thesd issues in the House. Can I pay tribute to

:42:32. > :42:35.the right honourable gentlelan and my honourable friend for securing

:42:36. > :42:41.this important debate. The situation in Syria is a truly horrendous one

:42:42. > :42:46.and I want to focus on the humanitarian catastrophe. In Aleppo

:42:47. > :42:50.there are two million peopld living without water or electricitx. There

:42:51. > :42:55.are attacks on health facilhties. Across Syria as a whole there are

:42:56. > :42:58.470,000 people who have lost their lives. Eight million people

:42:59. > :43:04.internally displaced and more than four million refugees. I believe we

:43:05. > :43:07.can rightly be proud of our role in providing aid in the region and I

:43:08. > :43:15.welcome the Minister to his place. ?1. 35 billion in UK aid since 012.

:43:16. > :43:20.Money well spent in that region But concern has been raised by ` range

:43:21. > :43:23.of humanitarian civil society and human rights organisations that the

:43:24. > :43:28.Assad regime is controlling deliveries of aid to the detriment

:43:29. > :43:31.of rebel-held areas. This r`ises serious questions for United

:43:32. > :43:35.Nations, questions I would like the Government to raise with thd United

:43:36. > :43:39.Nations. Can I echo what thd right honourable gentleman said about the

:43:40. > :43:43.heroic efforts of Jordan, Ldbanon and Turkey in coping with m`ssive

:43:44. > :43:47.numbers of refugees coming to the country and we recognise th`t in our

:43:48. > :43:50.report in January this year of the international development committee

:43:51. > :43:56.on the Syrian refugee crisis. We also said in that report th`t we

:43:57. > :43:59.would welcome a decision by the Government to resettle 3,000

:44:00. > :44:02.unaccompanied children. I would like to hear an update from the

:44:03. > :44:06.Government what progress thdy are making on the former Prime

:44:07. > :44:10.Minister's pledge to take 20,00 vulnerable people through a

:44:11. > :44:14.resettlement scheme, the plddge to take 3,000 vulnerable children from

:44:15. > :44:17.the region and also the pledge to take children from Greece, Htaly and

:44:18. > :44:20.France. I raised that yesterday with the Home Secretary. She said that

:44:21. > :44:25.around 50 children have been accepted so far. I would like to see

:44:26. > :44:29.that accelerated because we have a duty to act here in the samd way

:44:30. > :44:32.that we have a duty to act there. I am pleased to give way on that

:44:33. > :44:35.point. The honourable member is making an extraordinary powdrful

:44:36. > :44:39.point in his speech, but thd resettlement programme is absolutely

:44:40. > :44:42.stuck in the mud because in Greater Manchester at the moment agreement

:44:43. > :44:45.cannot be reached between the city authorities and the Governmdnt

:44:46. > :44:49.because they refuse to pay the money that is required to get those

:44:50. > :44:52.children, get those Syrian refugees to Manchester where we are willing

:44:53. > :44:57.to accept them. Does he agrde with me? I do agree and the people of

:44:58. > :45:00.Liverpool have made a simil`r pledge and the mayor of Liverpool have done

:45:01. > :45:04.so. The National Audit Office published a report last month on

:45:05. > :45:08.this very issue in which thdy praised the progress by loc`l

:45:09. > :45:12.Government in the last year, but pointed to some of the issuds my

:45:13. > :45:16.honourable friend has highlhghted, not least it isn't clear wh`t levels

:45:17. > :45:21.of funding will be availabld to support local authorities bdyond the

:45:22. > :45:26.first year costs. Can I also ask the Foreign Secretary to address another

:45:27. > :45:33.aspect of the current crisis. That is the 70,000 Syrian refugeds that

:45:34. > :45:38.are currently in what is known as a demilitary identificationed zone

:45:39. > :45:42.between Syria and Jordan, 70,00 being effectively prevented from

:45:43. > :45:47.going to the safe space of Jordan. Our former colleague, the hdad of

:45:48. > :45:51.the UN office for humanitarhan affairs, Steven O'Brien, has

:45:52. > :45:55.described the conditions thdre as being truly dire. My understanding

:45:56. > :45:58.is that there is a plan to deal with this crisis, it has been agreed by

:45:59. > :46:03.the United Nations but not xet by Jordan. Can I ask the Foreign

:46:04. > :46:08.Secretary to use his good offices to pursue this as a matter of trge

:46:09. > :46:14.generalsy with the Jordanian Government? An issue brought by the

:46:15. > :46:17.right honourable the member for Sutton coal field and anothdr former

:46:18. > :46:22.International Development Sdcretary Clare Short this year was the

:46:23. > :46:26.question about some unintended consequences of counterterrorism

:46:27. > :46:30.legislation for the deliverx of aid. A number of NGOs have been hn touch

:46:31. > :46:33.with the committee in recent weeks to raise this, and in particular two

:46:34. > :46:37.areas that require action from the Government. First of all, to ease

:46:38. > :46:43.the concerns of banks. My understanding is that even when NGOs

:46:44. > :46:46.are fully compliant with counterterror legislation sometimes

:46:47. > :46:50.banks are nervous about lending which leads to delays in thd

:46:51. > :46:55.processing of payment and therefore the aid doesn't get deliverdd.

:46:56. > :46:59.Secondly, to use our good offices with Turkey because my understanding

:47:00. > :47:03.is it isn't always easy for NGOs to function in the border region with

:47:04. > :47:08.Syria and Turkey on the Turkish side. For example, Syria Relieve UK

:47:09. > :47:12.has told us they've been wahting for their application to establhsh an

:47:13. > :47:16.office in southern Turkey to be processed and that Turkish

:47:17. > :47:21.authorities can be overly restrictive about the means via

:47:22. > :47:25.which they allow frundz to be transferred into Syria. I rdalise

:47:26. > :47:28.they are technical points btt they are about how aid can effectively

:47:29. > :47:31.can be delivered. I would bd grateful if ministers can address

:47:32. > :47:35.them today. The scale of thd challenge here is truly enormous.

:47:36. > :47:40.The heart-breaking scenes that colleagues on all sides of the House

:47:41. > :47:43.have referred to from Aleppo, in particular, touch us all and touch

:47:44. > :47:46.our constituents and people in all parts of this country. I am really

:47:47. > :47:51.pleased that a number of contributors to the debate have

:47:52. > :47:54.reaffirmed the important prhnciple of the responsibility to protect

:47:55. > :48:00.that really came out of what happened in the 1990s in Rw`nda and

:48:01. > :48:03.in the BalkansN the meantimd we need urgent action to secure safd

:48:04. > :48:09.delivery of aid to all parts of Syria. I am pleased to give way

:48:10. > :48:15.There have been suggestions that the Secretary of State will be

:48:16. > :48:21.disinclined to allow offici`ls to shovel money out of the door towards

:48:22. > :48:25.the year end to meet a 0. 7$ target, if those projects are not up to

:48:26. > :48:30.scratch. She's quite right to say so. But will she observe th`t given

:48:31. > :48:38.the state of need, there is no shortage of very effective ways of

:48:39. > :48:41.spending that money? I echo entirely what the former Minister, the right

:48:42. > :48:44.honourable gentleman says, H agree entirely. The scale of need in

:48:45. > :48:50.Syria, but frankly in other parts of the world including parts of Africa,

:48:51. > :48:53.should mean that we can both deliver and do it with true efficiency and

:48:54. > :48:57.value for money. The safe ddlivery of aid is clearly urgent. Then we

:48:58. > :49:02.need to move forward as othdrs have said to get some kind of political

:49:03. > :49:08.process, a return to a ceasdfire and I would say we need to explore every

:49:09. > :49:11.option, we need to explore no-fly and no bombing zones, we nedd to

:49:12. > :49:17.look at the question of air drops and do need to look at the role that

:49:18. > :49:20.Russia is playing. I give w`y. He is making a very powerful case about

:49:21. > :49:25.how we must help the people in the region but ultimately what will help

:49:26. > :49:29.is to end the civil war in Syria. We know some are saying we shotld wait

:49:30. > :49:33.until the presidential elections are over, the people in Aleppo do in the

:49:34. > :49:36.have that luxury of waiting. Does he agree that therefore there hs a role

:49:37. > :49:40.for sanctions to get Russia back to the table and get that procdss

:49:41. > :49:44.started again? I absolutely concur with what she said about sanctions

:49:45. > :49:47.against Russia. And I support the description of Russia's rold by the

:49:48. > :49:51.right honourable gentleman hn his speech opening the debate today The

:49:52. > :49:57.Russians should hang their heads in shame for the role they are playing

:49:58. > :50:02.in Syria and we should use dvery available means that we havd,

:50:03. > :50:06.including further sanctions to put pressure on President puten. This is

:50:07. > :50:11.a huge failure of the international system. It's a stain on our

:50:12. > :50:18.humanity. All of us must do all that we can to redouble our efforts to

:50:19. > :50:24.bring peace for the people of Syria. Thank you, MrSpeaker. Thank you for

:50:25. > :50:29.granting time for this debate. Until today we had not debated thd

:50:30. > :50:33.atrocities in Syria in a substantive way since June. So, it was really

:50:34. > :50:37.thanks to the work of brave journalists at Channel 4 News and

:50:38. > :50:41.elsewhere and fearless humanitarians in Syria that the killing and

:50:42. > :50:46.maiming of Syrian people did not pass by unseen in this country,

:50:47. > :50:52.despite our recess. But in this House we can make sure that the call

:50:53. > :50:57.for help from Syrian people does not go unanswered. Let me thank also the

:50:58. > :51:01.member for Sutton Coalfield who I am privileged to work with as co-chair

:51:02. > :51:06.of the all-party parliament`ry group on Syria and I also thank the member

:51:07. > :51:10.for Barrow and other members of the group for their work. But on the

:51:11. > :51:13.member for Sutton Coalfield, I was a member of the international

:51:14. > :51:16.development Select Committed when he was Secretary of State and H am not

:51:17. > :51:23.ashamed to say I took great pleasure in trying to find questions he could

:51:24. > :51:27.not answer. But today I stand with him united. He is a relentldss

:51:28. > :51:32.champion for human rights. @nd for the international law and I pay

:51:33. > :51:35.tribute to him. And I thank also the Foreign Secretary for attending

:51:36. > :51:40.today alongside the developlent Secretary who was here earlher.

:51:41. > :51:44.MrSpeaker, just a few weeks ago the fragile ceasefire in Syria was

:51:45. > :51:48.shattered in a disgraceful `ttack on a UN aid convoy carrying desperately

:51:49. > :51:53.needed humanitarian aid to the people of Aleppo. The brave drivers

:51:54. > :51:58.and volunteers in that convoy risked everything to help those people who

:51:59. > :52:03.needed it most. And they represent the best of humanity. It is an

:52:04. > :52:09.outrage that they paid for their decency with their lives, the peace

:52:10. > :52:14.in Syria had lasted barely ` week. At the time the ceasefire w`s so

:52:15. > :52:18.welcome, arising shortly after the publication of a transition plan

:52:19. > :52:24.from the opposition Syrian high negotiation committee a few weeks

:52:25. > :52:26.before here in London. But hn the callous targeting of civili`n aid

:52:27. > :52:31.and let us be clear that is a war crime if it is shown to be

:52:32. > :52:36.deliberate, the Syrian regile has shown that it is not interested in

:52:37. > :52:41.peace, only suffering. And this is not the only war crime commhtted by

:52:42. > :52:46.Assad and his allies. MrSpe`ker these are the facts. More than

:52:47. > :52:50.400,000 people are dead. Millions have fled for their lives.

:52:51. > :52:56.Hospitals, supposedly protected by international law, are now `ttacked

:52:57. > :53:00.as a matter of routine. 600,000 people are still besieged in eastern

:53:01. > :53:06.Aleppo under constant bombardment from the regime and the Russians.

:53:07. > :53:11.Aleppo as we have heard unddr bombardment today but it is only one

:53:12. > :53:16.of about 17 cities besieged, many neighbourhoods and entire towns have

:53:17. > :53:20.been razed to the ground. One report suggests that three-quarters of

:53:21. > :53:23.children in Aleppo now suffdr with post traumatic stress disorder and a

:53:24. > :53:28.little boy there spelt out what it is like to grow up in Syria today.

:53:29. > :53:33.All the days, he said, are similar to each other. The only new thing is

:53:34. > :53:37.what time the shelling comes. The shelling is the thing which scares

:53:38. > :53:44.us a lot, it's not possible to get used to it. Mr Speaker, no child

:53:45. > :53:49.should live like that. And ht is a fact that a recent report from Human

:53:50. > :53:55.Rights Watch revealed that incendiary weapons similar to naplam

:53:56. > :53:59.were being dropped in civilhans in opposition-held areas of Aldppo A

:54:00. > :54:02.weapon all of us might once have thought was consigned to thd worst

:54:03. > :54:09.chapters of history, now behng dropped on civilians in the 21st

:54:10. > :54:12.century. And it further is ` fact established by the UN joint

:54:13. > :54:17.investigative mechanism in @ugust, that the regime is using chlorine

:54:18. > :54:22.gas as a weapon dropping barrels of it on densely populated civhlian

:54:23. > :54:25.areas. These are barrels of gas dropped from helicopters th`t

:54:26. > :54:31.disperse quickly and fill the lungs of people who inhale it with fluid

:54:32. > :54:36.until they choke. Gas attacks, MrSpeaker, taking us back to the

:54:37. > :54:42.worst of the First World War. As a result, experts are warning of

:54:43. > :54:46.the risk of normalising chelical weapons after decades of sustained

:54:47. > :54:50.international effort to keep them beyond the pail. Meanwhile Syrians

:54:51. > :54:53.on the ground talk of hearing the sound of helicopters and pr`ying

:54:54. > :54:58.they're just carrying explosives and nothing worse. But it's important to

:54:59. > :55:03.be clear, not just about wh`t is happening in Syria but also who is

:55:04. > :55:06.to blame. Clarity is necess`ry because confusion results in

:55:07. > :55:10.equiffation, indecision and inaction. When the Serbs were

:55:11. > :55:13.slaughtering thousands in Bosnia, international action was delayed

:55:14. > :55:18.because false claims that the Bosnian Government forces wdre

:55:19. > :55:23.staging attacks against civhlians to try and provoke an internathonal

:55:24. > :55:26.response against Karadic. The result was the major Government to its

:55:27. > :55:33.shame I am afraid opposed arms sales to the Serbian and at first resisted

:55:34. > :55:38.a no-fly zone. The same campaign is being waged today, the deni`ls, lies

:55:39. > :55:45.about who what is happening, who to blame, we have seen it before and it

:55:46. > :55:48.can not stand. British air strikes are targeteted at Daesh are and

:55:49. > :55:52.hundreds of miles from Aleppo where the worse suffering is occurring.

:55:53. > :55:55.The truth is that the vast `nd overwhelming majority of civilian

:55:56. > :55:59.casualties in Syria are the victims of Assad's aggression against his

:56:00. > :56:04.own people, sparked by the democratic uprising of the @rab

:56:05. > :56:09.Spring. So I recognise the concerns of many that we must think through

:56:10. > :56:13.the consequences of our acthons But as others have said, let us be

:56:14. > :56:17.clear, it is not just win wd choose to act that the consequences of our

:56:18. > :56:22.action must be accounted for, but also when we have the capachty to

:56:23. > :56:26.act and choose not to, when we choose to look away, that h`s

:56:27. > :56:29.consequences too. Of course, it's natural to feel

:56:30. > :56:33.powerless in the face of such horror. But our knowledge of horror

:56:34. > :56:38.must drive us to action, not transfix us with despair. So what

:56:39. > :56:42.can be done? First, with bolbs raining down on the people of

:56:43. > :56:46.eastern Aleppo as we speak ht's urgent that the safe be salvaged if

:56:47. > :56:47.possible. And if this is not possible there are still actions

:56:48. > :56:56.that the UK can take. We should be volunteering to take

:56:57. > :57:00.the lead on tracking epochal first Syria using our assets based in the

:57:01. > :57:03.region. There must be absoltte clarity about who was responsible

:57:04. > :57:07.for these crimes, not just hn the hope that the aggressors max change

:57:08. > :57:10.tactics but to keep alive the potential for prosecution in the

:57:11. > :57:15.future. We have type 45s restorers and monitoring aircraft that could

:57:16. > :57:19.do this job and make a diffdrence. Speaking of accountability, as I

:57:20. > :57:24.hope is now the consensus in this House, we can support the French

:57:25. > :57:27.initiative to send Syria and Russia to the International Crimin`l Court

:57:28. > :57:31.and we can support the strongest possible sanctions against Russia to

:57:32. > :57:33.show there are consequences for what they are doing. The Foreign

:57:34. > :57:39.Secretary said it before and I agree, we have to be at the

:57:40. > :57:42.forefront of applying sancthons In the longer term, protection of

:57:43. > :57:45.civilians from aerial bombardment along with the destruction of

:57:46. > :57:48.chemical weapons must be thd aim but there is also legal precedent in

:57:49. > :57:53.Kosovo for the establishment of a no-fly zone without Securitx Council

:57:54. > :57:58.backing, my view is that thhs must not be off the table if it can be

:57:59. > :58:05.shown to be the most effecthve way of protecting civilians. We must be

:58:06. > :58:09.absolutely clear as a House, precisely what we mean in this

:58:10. > :58:15.demand for a no-fly zone. The honourable member has pointdd out

:58:16. > :58:22.how it worked in Iraq. We h`d to take down Iraqi planes. This would

:58:23. > :58:26.require the will to take down Russian planes will stop perhaps

:58:27. > :58:32.that is the right answer, btt we must be aware of what we ard

:58:33. > :58:38.contemplating. 90, Mr Speakdr. I thank the honourable gentlelan for

:58:39. > :58:43.his intervention. He anticipates the very point I am about to make. Given

:58:44. > :58:47.that barrel bombs and chemical weapons are mainly delivered by

:58:48. > :58:51.helicopter, experts have calculated a no-fly zone just by helicopters

:58:52. > :58:55.could reduce civilian casualties by up to 90%, what even failing that,

:58:56. > :59:00.there are still things we could do. We can push for bigger windows to

:59:01. > :59:05.get humanitarian aid into the worst hit areas and look at using other

:59:06. > :59:10.assets to drop aid into besheged areas. We can also get more support

:59:11. > :59:13.to the heroic white helmets, the Syrian volunteers who risk their

:59:14. > :59:19.lives to save as many peopld as they can from the death raining down on

:59:20. > :59:23.them. Many people will have seen the white helmets on the news bdcause of

:59:24. > :59:29.their nomination for the Nobel Peace Prize. These heroes risk it all

:59:30. > :59:33.every day to save lives, often running towards the sound of the

:59:34. > :59:38.shelling and risking being caught in second strikes. They need otr

:59:39. > :59:42.support, and even if all of those people just watching this ddbate

:59:43. > :59:50.made a donation as a result, just having this debate would have been

:59:51. > :59:53.worth it for that alone. Wotld my honourable friend be clear `bout

:59:54. > :59:59.what support in particular she is looking for for the white hdlmets?

:00:00. > :00:06.Are we talking about greater access to technical help and from doctors

:00:07. > :00:11.doing advised during surgerx on the internet, are we talking about

:00:12. > :00:21.increased donations? I am unclear. All of the above is the answer. I am

:00:22. > :00:28.grateful to her for giving way. I want to make sure the record is

:00:29. > :00:32.accurate. The difficulty wotld be taking Syria and Russia to the ICC

:00:33. > :00:36.as things stand is that thex are not members and the French inithative is

:00:37. > :00:42.to try to get ICC prosecutors to set up a way of prosecuting, and that we

:00:43. > :00:47.certainly support. Thank yot, Mr Speaker. I thank my colleagte on the

:00:48. > :00:54.front bench for her intervention. Finally, let me say we can certainly

:00:55. > :00:57.offer support to the credible inclusive plans the Syrian

:00:58. > :01:03.opposition put forward and H cannot help but note that in serving as

:01:04. > :01:13.culture of the Friends of Sxria group... I am taking up the role of

:01:14. > :01:16.my friend, Jo Cox. She would have been here and she would havd known

:01:17. > :01:21.what was needed. Most of all, I think she would have said that we

:01:22. > :01:30.should help refugees fleeing Syria not just 20,000 by 2020 but many

:01:31. > :01:34.more, much more quickly. Lastly on London's Southbank there is a

:01:35. > :01:36.memorial dedicated to the International Brigades, those who

:01:37. > :01:42.fought for democracy in the Spanish Civil War. On one side of this

:01:43. > :01:46.culture there is an inscription that weeds, they went because thdy're

:01:47. > :01:50.open eyes could see no other way. Mr Speaker, in Syria today the world is

:01:51. > :01:56.conducted by the unspeakabld evil and unimaginable suffering. Some of

:01:57. > :02:01.us might have hoped the advdnt of social media and new means of

:02:02. > :02:06.technology might have opened eyes more, even so than in the 1830s But

:02:07. > :02:10.the pictures we see makers want to close our eyes, to turn awax. But we

:02:11. > :02:14.cannot see what we have seen and we must not turn our backs on the

:02:15. > :02:18.greatest crime of our century. The people of Syria are suffering, let

:02:19. > :02:23.us do everything we can to help them. I thank the honourabld the for

:02:24. > :02:27.her speech. Edge-mac there have been some exceptionally powerful speeches

:02:28. > :02:32.in the debate already. As I am keen to accommodate everyone, and

:02:33. > :02:36.everyone having the chance to make a decent length of speech and in

:02:37. > :02:40.anticipation of us all one thing did hear the Foreign Secretary respond,

:02:41. > :02:47.handsomely Dutchman wanting, can appeal to colleagues to try to stick

:02:48. > :02:51.to seven minutes? Mr Gavin Robinson. You caught me slightly unaw`re

:02:52. > :02:56.there, but I appreciate the call at this juncture. Listening to the

:02:57. > :03:01.right honourable member for Sutton Coldfield, I think it was rhght his

:03:02. > :03:04.comments moved towards geopolitics, towards the constraints we have in

:03:05. > :03:08.finding a positive resolution, but also the willingness to do so.

:03:09. > :03:13.Whilst his contribution as `mong the others have not had as much time as

:03:14. > :03:17.may have liked to focus on the compassionate reasons why hd is

:03:18. > :03:23.motivated by this case, thex are well grounded. In paying trhbute to

:03:24. > :03:28.him and all those colleagues who do serve on the Sarah APPG, I think

:03:29. > :03:32.it's important we always relember the rationale for engaging hn this

:03:33. > :03:37.discussion, but also those people who are suffering continually in

:03:38. > :03:42.Aleppo and beyond. I am encouraged by a great number of contributions

:03:43. > :03:48.that have been made this afternoon, save one. When I listened to the

:03:49. > :03:52.Shadow puppet -- shadow for enteric -- Shadow Foreign Secretary, I

:03:53. > :03:59.despair for the people of Sxria and I despair for the paucity of

:04:00. > :04:02.positive policy proposals that she has to make, and I'm glad they are

:04:03. > :04:06.not reflected by the backbench members in this chamber, because

:04:07. > :04:11.they can be summed up like this more statesmanship and less

:04:12. > :04:16.penmanship, less platitudes. Withdrawal, withdrawal was lentioned

:04:17. > :04:19.from every other country th`t we associate ourselves with and are

:04:20. > :04:23.allied with to do a good job, and to leave the Syrian people by

:04:24. > :04:28.themselves. Appeasement. Allow them to have safe passage from Aleppo in

:04:29. > :04:33.the hope that we will get l`sting peace by December four Aleppo. Let

:04:34. > :04:40.us live to fight another dax and to be parasitical. I think it hs

:04:41. > :04:47.appalling. I give way. Does the honourable gentleman know about what

:04:48. > :04:51.happened in relation to homds when it was being besieged and the

:04:52. > :04:56.proposed action I'm putting before the house today in relation to

:04:57. > :05:02.Aleppo worked when it came to Homs, lives were saved as a result. Does

:05:03. > :05:08.he not think we should look at that? Where did they go, and what did they

:05:09. > :05:12.do? I won't note matches about appeasement of terrorists, whether

:05:13. > :05:18.it is in Northern Ireland or Aleppo. And I am glad that what has been

:05:19. > :05:22.shared from the not reflectdd by the honest and decent and caring

:05:23. > :05:28.individuals who sit behind. Because we recognise how serious thhs matter

:05:29. > :05:33.is, and the Foreign Secretary has a big job to do, and our Defence

:05:34. > :05:37.Secretary has a big job to do, when considering how we as a country

:05:38. > :05:47.appropriately and responsibly deal with the issue of Russia. There is

:05:48. > :05:53.an ancient, age old saying that my enemy of my enemy is my fridnd and

:05:54. > :05:58.here we have turned on its head My enemy's enemy is my enemy, `nd

:05:59. > :06:01.Russia. And I think it is a stark -- as stark as that. We have Rtssia

:06:02. > :06:07.moving nuclear weapons to Kaliningrad, we have Russia having

:06:08. > :06:13.sorties a day after day aftdr day, whether it is in the Baltic Sea or

:06:14. > :06:16.the Black Sea or the North Sea, in contravention of Nato. We h`ve a

:06:17. > :06:20.Nato ally in Turkey having shot down a Russian jet fighter a number of

:06:21. > :06:26.months ago, now signing deals just yesterday. What is the conshderation

:06:27. > :06:31.of that within Nato? Have is that current impact on Turkey's future

:06:32. > :06:36.engagement, when our ally is signing trade deals for gas and milhtary

:06:37. > :06:43.intelligence are signing de`ls with Russia? These are huge questions,

:06:44. > :06:50.huge questions, get the immddiate impact is the consideration for the

:06:51. > :06:54.people of Aleppo. I would bd very keen, having heard the ICC lentioned

:06:55. > :06:58.and the concern about whethdr there is membership or not, my

:06:59. > :07:03.understanding is that Russi` has signed but not ratified membership

:07:04. > :07:06.of the ICC. I would be keen to hear from the Foreign Secretary, is that

:07:07. > :07:14.an impediment to progress? The BBC was suggesting last night that given

:07:15. > :07:18.the nature of prosecutions previously that have been focused

:07:19. > :07:23.from African states, there hs the ability but there is no will. To

:07:24. > :07:28.pursue the French option and to pursue the Russian state. I will

:07:29. > :07:35.give way. Will he accept th`t if, as has been suggested today, Rtssia

:07:36. > :07:40.being a key part of this conflict and the problems which are being

:07:41. > :07:43.faced by the people of Aleppo, if we were to impose trade sanctions, if

:07:44. > :07:48.we are to take people to crhminal court, if we are to impose no-fly

:07:49. > :07:52.zones, that means huge political will to take action against a

:07:53. > :07:58.country that thinks it can do what it wants. It doesn't tally `nd

:07:59. > :08:03.reports recently suggested Russia is succeeding in the later magnetic

:08:04. > :08:06.war, damaging signals, removing covering support for several rebel

:08:07. > :08:15.fighters. They are succeeding in drone strikes in a way we do not.

:08:16. > :08:20.They are succeeding comprehdnsively. Is a no-fly zone the easy option? It

:08:21. > :08:22.is not. But it is -- if it hs the right option for the people of

:08:23. > :08:28.Syria, this party has never been found wanting to support for

:08:29. > :08:32.security of this province, so I do hope you can give us some

:08:33. > :08:35.reassurance. I do not think the task ahead is an easy one, but I do hope

:08:36. > :08:39.you are getting the tone of the debate on this chamber from all

:08:40. > :08:42.those positive contributions that the resolve is there. That the will

:08:43. > :08:48.is there to do the right thhng and that is a country and as

:08:49. > :08:52.individuals, we need to be counted. Thank you, Mr Speaker. It h`s been a

:08:53. > :08:58.privilege to be in the Housd today for what I think has been some of

:08:59. > :09:04.the best and some of the worst traditions of where our democracy is

:09:05. > :09:14.at the moment. I just want briefly to say, about my honourable friend

:09:15. > :09:18.the member, there is no one better to step into the friends of our dear

:09:19. > :09:24.Mr Cranch Jo Cox and we will do our best. I just want to dwell for a

:09:25. > :09:33.little bit longer on what h`ppened on September the 19th. It is no mean

:09:34. > :09:38.feat to put together a cross line combine, 31 lorries had been

:09:39. > :09:47.assembled by various nations under the clear banner of the UN HCR. Let

:09:48. > :09:54.me just read from a couple of eyewitnesses, who said the

:09:55. > :09:59.bombardment was continuous, continuous. Someone else sahd, I saw

:10:00. > :10:06.the bodies of men on the ground I was told they work truck drhvers and

:10:07. > :10:09.volunteers, who had been unloading the medicine, food and other

:10:10. > :10:19.desperately needed items by the people of Aleppo. That bombhng went

:10:20. > :10:23.on for more than two hours, and it started, it came from helicopter and

:10:24. > :10:27.it came from land forces and it started directly after a Russian

:10:28. > :10:34.drone which have been directly overhead disappear. -- which had.

:10:35. > :10:37.There is no doubt as to who were the perpetrators of this grotespue war

:10:38. > :10:44.crimes. It was President Putin of Russia and he was sticking two

:10:45. > :10:48.fingers up to the United Nations, to the international community, which

:10:49. > :10:56.he still has the audacity to claim he is a working part of. And I have

:10:57. > :10:59.to say, shame on anyone frol the UN official report downwards to members

:11:00. > :11:05.of this House to members of my party, who failed to acknowledge

:11:06. > :11:09.that grotesque war crime. I hear these platitudes about bread, not

:11:10. > :11:14.bombs. But when the bombs are destroying the bread and whdn the

:11:15. > :11:20.people who are making these platitudes are actually obstructing

:11:21. > :11:24.the possibility of any peacd in the region, I say they are directly

:11:25. > :11:29.complicit in what is happenhng. This is a time for us to choose, as

:11:30. > :11:35.individuals in this Parliamdnt, but also as a country, as to whhch side

:11:36. > :11:39.we are on, whether we want to act or whether we want to stand by.

:11:40. > :11:47.I was in Istanbul last week and met the leader of the opposition

:11:48. > :11:50.coalition in their headquarters there, exiled from the country where

:11:51. > :11:55.they still have families, mdmbers of their community who live in fear of

:11:56. > :12:06.their lives and whose lives are taken every day. I met the President

:12:07. > :12:14.and I met the Secretary Gendral a man who does not speak Englhsh but

:12:15. > :12:20.he spoke through an interprdter He looked at me with cold and cynical

:12:21. > :12:25.fury in his eyes and he said, we are grateful for the sugar which is sent

:12:26. > :12:30.to us from the international community which is bombed bx the

:12:31. > :12:36.Russians and we hope you send more sugar which will be bombed but

:12:37. > :12:41.actually, this is not primarily a problem of lack of aid being sent.

:12:42. > :12:50.The aid is being bombed by the regime and by Russia. Until you help

:12:51. > :12:56.us with tackling that at sotrce no amount of goodwill and humanitarian

:12:57. > :13:03.hand-wringing is going to hdlp to solve this situation. So thdre are

:13:04. > :13:07.different interpretations of what a no-fly zone and no-bombing zone

:13:08. > :13:12.would mean and I recognise the danger, grave danger of esc`lation

:13:13. > :13:16.of saying that we would be prepared to shoot down a Russian plane, but I

:13:17. > :13:21.will say probably two things. My sense is and I would like to hear

:13:22. > :13:28.the Foreign Secretary's views on this, is that actually a no,bombing

:13:29. > :13:33.zone could work to say that every time the Assad regime and Rtssia

:13:34. > :13:38.commit one of these atrocithes in the full view of the intern`tional

:13:39. > :13:44.community, the coalition whhch is currently fighting Daesh will

:13:45. > :13:48.respond primarily with Naval assets in targeting part of the regime s

:13:49. > :13:53.infrastructure, no one is bombing Russia, no one is taking down

:13:54. > :14:02.Russian planes but we will target that infrastructure every thme they

:14:03. > :14:07.commit an atrocity. So, it's time, they kill civilians, we respond

:14:08. > :14:13.targeting military only. Thd Foreign Secretary knows his history. You

:14:14. > :14:19.could say that he knows a thing or two about bullies. Russia, President

:14:20. > :14:27.Putin is a classic bully and what you have seen over these last few

:14:28. > :14:29.years actually beyond that hs that the international community has you

:14:30. > :14:33.couldered every time he has advanced and when you do that with btllies

:14:34. > :14:39.they go further and they go further and they go further. So I s`y to the

:14:40. > :14:45.people who every time say wd must not do this because we will enrage

:14:46. > :14:50.Russia, we don't want anothdr world war, well it is actually thdir

:14:51. > :14:53.cowardice which is making conflict, the continuation of conflict in

:14:54. > :14:58.Syria and further conflict hn Europe more likely. The only thing to do,

:14:59. > :15:07.MrSpeaker, with bullies is to stand up to them. We are going to have to

:15:08. > :15:11.do that sooner or later and I absolutely reckon with what my

:15:12. > :15:16.honourable friend said when he said the people of Syria do not have

:15:17. > :15:20.three months to see how the presidential handover will go and

:15:21. > :15:29.then see how the new Presiddnt, they are being killed in scores, in

:15:30. > :15:30.hundreds every single day. OK, really quickly.

:15:31. > :15:34.LAUGHTER I am getting frowned at by the

:15:35. > :15:40.Speaker, but very quickly. H will be quick. Does he also agree that the

:15:41. > :15:48.honourable lady on the front bench's suggestion that we go through a

:15:49. > :15:52.different process which involves engaging with the Syrians at various

:15:53. > :15:56.levels will also not work bdcause we have no time whatsoever, Aldppo will

:15:57. > :16:00.have disappeared by Christm`s? Who are we kidding, there is no process.

:16:01. > :16:05.There is no process because no one is standing up to the Russi`n regime

:16:06. > :16:09.bombs. These people underst`nd that. But they don't want to get hnvolved.

:16:10. > :16:12.So, the question is for the Foreign Secretary and the Government

:16:13. > :16:16.ultimately, because my partx I am afraid is making itself mord and

:16:17. > :16:19.more of an irrelevance with every pronouncement from the front bench.

:16:20. > :16:24.Are we prepared, like the rhght honourable gentleman said in the

:16:25. > :16:28.beginning, are we prepared to oversee another collapse of the UN

:16:29. > :16:33.like the United Nations before it? Are we going to be a new latter day

:16:34. > :16:38.generation of Neville Chambdrlain? Or are we going to take courage and

:16:39. > :16:42.act in the man they're the Foreign Secretary knows very well from his

:16:43. > :16:49.time as the by grapher of the great Winston Churchill? Thank yot,

:16:50. > :16:54.MrSpeaker. MrPeter Grant. Thank you, and can I also commend the lember

:16:55. > :16:59.for securing this debate and could I appeal to members to bear in mind

:17:00. > :17:04.the subject under discussion here and the subject for which you have

:17:05. > :17:08.agreed to this debate being held. It's about a humanitarian

:17:09. > :17:11.catastrophe. It has been catsed by a breakdown of political procdsses,

:17:12. > :17:15.it's been caused by crimes `gainst humanity. It's been caused by acts

:17:16. > :17:21.of terrorism, it's been caused by a lot of things but first and foremost

:17:22. > :17:24.we are talking about an immhnent mortal threat to Hawn,000 children.

:17:25. > :17:28.Every one of those children lives every second of their lives not

:17:29. > :17:35.knowing if they will see thd next second. Surely that has got to be

:17:36. > :17:39.the priority. Establishing ` peaceful democratic legitim`te

:17:40. > :17:42.Government in Syria is important, stopping the Russian war machine

:17:43. > :17:47.from going further is important Neutralising forever the threat from

:17:48. > :17:51.Daesh is important, all these things are important but right now 100 000

:17:52. > :17:57.children, our brothers and sisters, are in immediate danger of death.

:17:58. > :18:01.That has got to be the top priority. Sometimes I think what we are seeing

:18:02. > :18:05.is different fire engines ttrning up to a fire and they spend tile

:18:06. > :18:09.arguing about whose fault it is the fire was caused, while in the

:18:10. > :18:14.building the children are screaming for somebody, anybody, for God's

:18:15. > :18:20.sake put the fire out. Emergency services turn out to a susphcion

:18:21. > :18:23.fire, the priority is always get the people out, extinguish the fire and

:18:24. > :18:26.then investigate whether it was caused by a criminal act and if

:18:27. > :18:30.necessary and appropriate t`ke action against those responsible. A

:18:31. > :18:34.lot of other matters raised here are vitally important, we can ndver lose

:18:35. > :18:38.sight of the fact that if wd spend another three weeks looking for a

:18:39. > :18:43.negotiated settlement, that will be another three weeks of children

:18:44. > :18:47.being either killed or starving to death or dying from basic shmple

:18:48. > :18:53.illnesses because they can't get the treatment they desperately need and

:18:54. > :18:59.they absolutely deserve. There are probably 35 doctors left

:19:00. > :19:03.in Aleppo. They can't possibly cope with the demands being put tpon

:19:04. > :19:06.them. Everyone of them risks their life every day because we know

:19:07. > :19:09.they're being targeted. I c`n't imagine a situation where bding a

:19:10. > :19:13.doctor or a nurse meant you had to risk your life every day to go to

:19:14. > :19:17.work. That's what these people are doing, heros everyone of thdm. We

:19:18. > :19:21.know that the largest hospital in the city was hit seven times in a

:19:22. > :19:25.single morning. That wasn't an accident. That wasn't a navhgational

:19:26. > :19:30.error, that was a deliberatd war crime and when the time comds it

:19:31. > :19:35.should be treated as that and then just to make the point bombdd the

:19:36. > :19:39.next day, a deliberate tacthc by the Syrians and Russians to att`ck

:19:40. > :19:43.civilian targets on one day, wait for the emergency services to

:19:44. > :19:48.respond and then go in and target them again. I think we also need to

:19:49. > :19:52.reevaluate the part of the Tnited Kingdom is playing and we nded to go

:19:53. > :19:55.back to the reasons why the United Kingdom got involved in milhtary

:19:56. > :20:00.action and to assess is that still appropriate. The former Prile

:20:01. > :20:05.Minister arguing in favour of military action last year ddscribed

:20:06. > :20:11.the Brimstone missiles as a unique sip set no other coalition `lly can

:20:12. > :20:15.contribute. That unique assdt has been deployed by the United Kingdom

:20:16. > :20:19.nine times in seven months since between February and August. That

:20:20. > :20:24.doesn't sound like a major , used more than that in January, `nd

:20:25. > :20:28.December last year. It's not - doesn't seem as if that is `

:20:29. > :20:32.compelling argument for continued military action. We were also told

:20:33. > :20:36.there were likely to be 70,000 moderate troops ready to john in the

:20:37. > :20:40.struggle against Daesh becatse one of the climb mats for a just war is

:20:41. > :20:44.a reasonable chance of succdss. I hope the Foreign Secretary can tell

:20:45. > :20:47.us where are those 707,000 troops now, do they still exist and if they

:20:48. > :20:50.don't how many are there? The former Prime Minister expected and hoped

:20:51. > :20:55.that if we supported military action we were to have a transitional

:20:56. > :20:59.Government in Syria in about six months. Those six months passed in

:21:00. > :21:04.June of this year. Can the Foreign Secretary tell us how far away now

:21:05. > :21:07.are we within six months, or as was said earlier, further from `

:21:08. > :21:10.peaceful solution than we h`ve ever been? We have got to face up to

:21:11. > :21:14.these difficult questions and on this occasion I am in the asking him

:21:15. > :21:20.to trip up those on the Govdrnment benches, I am asking from the heart,

:21:21. > :21:22.please can we look to make sure that part we are playing now through

:21:23. > :21:27.military action or anything else, that we are contributing to the

:21:28. > :21:33.solution, rather than making the problem so much more worse. Can any

:21:34. > :21:37.of us really imagine what 12 million refugees look like? A great many of

:21:38. > :21:41.them refugees in their own country. Millions of them refugees scattered

:21:42. > :21:44.across the globe. I for one would welcome many, many more if only we

:21:45. > :21:48.were allowed to. Nine million of those refugees are women and

:21:49. > :21:53.children who have played no part in any war or in any crime. Utterly

:21:54. > :21:58.innocent. 13,000 children h`ve lost their lives. Are we going to allow

:21:59. > :22:03.that to get to 14,000 and 14,00 and 16,000? Are or we going to `ccept

:22:04. > :22:09.that the first priority now has got to be to save the lives of those

:22:10. > :22:15.left, to prevent those appalling statistics from getting any worse? I

:22:16. > :22:20.am a great fan of the Scots Australian songwriter and shng error

:22:21. > :22:25.Rick Bogle. I haven't got hhs permission to quote this but I hope

:22:26. > :22:29.he won't mind a breach of copyright. Many years ago in response to

:22:30. > :22:39.another conflict he said, c`n you see the mad men who struck the world

:22:40. > :22:43.stage, threatening our destruction. Rattling nuclear sabres while the

:22:44. > :22:47.world hoets its breath, thex feed on fear and ignorance while chhldren

:22:48. > :22:52.starve to death. MrSpeaker, the children are starving to de`th

:22:53. > :22:55.today. Our first priority mtst be to feed the children by whatevdr means

:22:56. > :23:00.needed and then we can deal with the rest of the mess that the Rtssians

:23:01. > :23:06.and Syrians and Daesh have created. Thank you, MrSpeaker. Maybe I am one

:23:07. > :23:09.of those men who prance and preen in the way the honourable gentleman

:23:10. > :23:13.just said, but I do regret strongly three years ago when this House had

:23:14. > :23:17.the opportunity to leave opdn the option of military action that the

:23:18. > :23:20.House did not choose to do that I felt that was the appropriate thing

:23:21. > :23:25.to have done at the time. I am afraid a majority in this House felt

:23:26. > :23:30.that it was not. I am very please that had we have got this ddbate

:23:31. > :23:32.today and I congratulate thd honourable member for Sutton

:23:33. > :23:37.Coalfield for securing it bdcause I think what it enables the Government

:23:38. > :23:41.to do is perhaps to give us the quarterly update at the samd time in

:23:42. > :23:43.relation to what is happening with Syria because clearly

:23:44. > :23:47.notwithstanding what is happening just across the other side of the

:23:48. > :23:50.channel in terms of Brexit, this House wants to have regular updates

:23:51. > :23:56.from the Government on the progress that is being made in Syria. I look

:23:57. > :23:59.forward therefore to the Foreign Secretary giving some greatdr

:24:00. > :24:03.clarity about what discussions the UK Government have been havhng with

:24:04. > :24:09.the other players in this pdace process and what role we have been

:24:10. > :24:15.playing to try to promote pdace in Syria. I welcome certainly the role

:24:16. > :24:20.that the UK Government has played in relation to sanctions on Russia And

:24:21. > :24:25.I hope that is something th`t will continue at the point when the UK

:24:26. > :24:28.leaves the EU because of thd Prom nept role the UK Government have

:24:29. > :24:34.played there in relation to Ukraine and in passing I hope the Government

:24:35. > :24:40.will look carefully at the hssue of sanctions in relation to thd Russian

:24:41. > :24:44.responsibility for magski. The Foreign Secretary has drawn

:24:45. > :24:49.attention to his view that the Russians may have committed war

:24:50. > :24:53.crimes. And he has talked specifically about the issud of the

:24:54. > :24:57.double tap manoeuvre which H understand to mean that a strike is

:24:58. > :25:02.made, there is then a gap to allow the emergency services to ttrn up

:25:03. > :25:05.before then hitting that site again. I would like - I hope the Foreign

:25:06. > :25:10.Secretary will be able to sdt out precisely what evidence he has got

:25:11. > :25:16.of that because clearly that is a very serious allegation. But also if

:25:17. > :25:23.I could draw to his attention the fact that in Yemen the Saudhs are

:25:24. > :25:28.also alleged to have used the same double tap measure and therdfore, or

:25:29. > :25:32.manoeuvre, and therefore if rightly he is expressing concern about war

:25:33. > :25:35.crimes committed by Russia hn relation to Syria, I hope hd would

:25:36. > :25:41.also consider whether in fact the use of that manoeuvre in Yelen by

:25:42. > :25:47.the Saudis also amounts to ` war crime. I hope that we have heard a

:25:48. > :25:53.lot of members contribute I think very positively on the issud of

:25:54. > :25:56.recording the information about where Russian planes and Assad's

:25:57. > :26:01.helicopters have been activd, I hope that will be the case that that

:26:02. > :26:04.information is being recorddd because we want that evidence to use

:26:05. > :26:08.if war crimes prosecutions `re going to happen at some point in the

:26:09. > :26:13.future. I hope also that whdn the Foreign Secretary responds he may be

:26:14. > :26:17.able to say something about whether the UK is looking at using our

:26:18. > :26:22.universal jurisdiction to bring the Russians to account if therd is no

:26:23. > :26:26.other means for doing it. Ghven that the Russians are engaging in a

:26:27. > :26:31.propaganda war and we have seen the activities of some of their news

:26:32. > :26:37.outlets here in the UK, I wonder if there is no military reason why it

:26:38. > :26:41.could not be done, whether we should not be putting online 24/7 the

:26:42. > :26:46.flight paths of every Russi`n plane with an identifier on it so people

:26:47. > :26:50.go online and can make a cldar connection between that flight and

:26:51. > :26:53.that bomb and I would like to put that suggestion to him and H hope

:26:54. > :26:58.that's something the Governlent will want to consider.

:26:59. > :27:04.We are in favour of transparency, I think also the Foreign Secrdtary

:27:05. > :27:09.will be aware there was a joint policy for the coalition, the

:27:10. > :27:13.military commission to investigate civilian casualties. I do not think

:27:14. > :27:19.that has yet reported. So I hope that will be coming forward so we

:27:20. > :27:23.can see that we are also dohng with any casualties caused by thd

:27:24. > :27:30.coalition, effectively, as well On the subject of air drops, I quoted

:27:31. > :27:35.the Parliamentary answer for the Minister for Penrith and I will put

:27:36. > :27:39.it again, the use of airdrops is high risk and should only bd

:27:40. > :27:45.considered as a last resort for or other means have felt. It sdems that

:27:46. > :27:51.or other means have failed, and that certainly the first half of that has

:27:52. > :27:56.been satisfied, the second half is airdrops have to pass conditions to

:27:57. > :28:02.be met. Maybe it is on that basis that it is being rejected. H think

:28:03. > :28:08.if airdrops must be activelx pursued as a possibility by the Govdrnment.

:28:09. > :28:15.In terms again of reporting on what is happening in Syria, I wotld like

:28:16. > :28:23.to draw attention to the case of an award-winning journalist from Syria

:28:24. > :28:27.who had her passport removed by the British Government when she arrived

:28:28. > :28:31.in the UK because apparentlx, the Syrians had reported her passport

:28:32. > :28:37.was stolen. It does seem to me as though given that we think Syria is

:28:38. > :28:42.a pariah state committing crimes against humanity, the fact we would

:28:43. > :28:47.act on a request from them to seize the passport from someone is bizarre

:28:48. > :28:53.and I do hope the Foreign Sdcretary can explain why that was, why that

:28:54. > :29:01.action was taken. I would jtst like to conclude, the international

:29:02. > :29:05.community and UK Parliament have failed Syria three years ago. Today

:29:06. > :29:12.we must give the government the strongest way possible that they

:29:13. > :29:16.must stop to -- they must act to stop the murderous activitids of

:29:17. > :29:21.Russia as because if we are back here in three years, debating Syria

:29:22. > :29:24.again, it will be to pick over the skeleton a country destroyed,

:29:25. > :29:36.flattened, obliterated, with its people scattered all the fotr

:29:37. > :29:43.corners the world. -- to all. I congratulate the member for Sutton

:29:44. > :29:53.Coldfield for securing this debate. My party has heard of -- also shares

:29:54. > :29:55.the view that these people should be brought before the Internathonal

:29:56. > :30:00.Criminal Court. I will be brief and limit my remarks to this ond is --

:30:01. > :30:04.is one point. I would ask the Foreign Secretary to inform the

:30:05. > :30:09.House of the Government's stance on this particular matter. Othdrs have

:30:10. > :30:16.been quite clear. On Sunday, the Socialist French President said

:30:17. > :30:19.these are the victims of war crimes. Those who have committed thdse acts

:30:20. > :30:25.will have to face up to thehr responsibility, including in the

:30:26. > :30:29.ICC. On Monday, the French Foreign Minister goal zone Internathonal

:30:30. > :30:33.Criminal Court to investigate Russia for possible war crimes in Syria. He

:30:34. > :30:39.told French radio, France intends to get in touch with the ICC prosecutor

:30:40. > :30:42.to find out how the pro can be launched, as has been referred to

:30:43. > :30:48.earlier in this debate. This follows calls on Friday by the US Sdcretary

:30:49. > :30:50.of State, John Kerry, for Rtssia and Syria to face war crimes

:30:51. > :30:56.investigation for the attacks on civilians. The case against them is

:30:57. > :31:01.clear and is backed up by fhrm evidence. I do not need to dlaborate

:31:02. > :31:08.on that here today. My partx opposed the bombing of Syria by the UK. We

:31:09. > :31:10.hope that such bombing would be carefully think -- controlldd to

:31:11. > :31:17.exclude danger to Syria. -- to civilians. But Russia and Sxria have

:31:18. > :31:23.taken no such precautions. Hndeed, the evidence is that they t`rget

:31:24. > :31:26.civilians and should answer to that before the ICC. I do realisd there

:31:27. > :31:34.are substantial difficulties in this. Are on statute has bedn

:31:35. > :31:39.ratified by 122 countries. The United States, Russia and Sxria have

:31:40. > :31:45.not done so. I understand that a case could be made through the ICC

:31:46. > :31:50.for a referral. I think that is what the French Government have hn mind.

:31:51. > :31:57.The Security Council has bedn deadlocked over Syria. Russha vetoed

:31:58. > :32:02.the French resolution in Max 20 4 to refer the Syrian situation to the

:32:03. > :32:05.ICC. Again, on Saturday, Russia vetoed a UN resolution drafted by

:32:06. > :32:11.France demanding an immediate end to the bombing campaign. A mothon put

:32:12. > :32:15.forward by Russia would call for a ceasefire has been made, made no

:32:16. > :32:21.mention of the hall to air strikes. This was also rejected, blocked by

:32:22. > :32:26.the UK and the United States. However, the UN special and the

:32:27. > :32:32.Syria had said prior to the meeting of the UN Security Council that if

:32:33. > :32:36.urgent action is not taken, thousands of Syrians would be killed

:32:37. > :32:40.and towns such as eastern G`lloppa could be totally destroyed by the

:32:41. > :32:44.end of the year. The need for action is therefore pressing. -- E`stern

:32:45. > :32:48.Galloppa. The UK has the power and influence to act. We believd that

:32:49. > :32:51.governments shares the view that power and influence ever more

:32:52. > :32:55.effectively as others do putting even more pressure on Russi` in

:32:56. > :33:01.particular and that is to some effect was of it has been confirmed

:33:02. > :33:07.this morning for example, that President Putin will not visit Paris

:33:08. > :33:12.next week, after declining to meet Francois Hollande for talks on

:33:13. > :33:18.Syria. I do not need to savd the situation is desperate. But both the

:33:19. > :33:24.Assad regime and Russia are accused of perpetrating war crimes. We have

:33:25. > :33:29.international law mechanisms for bringing such perpetrators before

:33:30. > :33:35.the ICC, on what possible b`sis might we not do this? We should do

:33:36. > :33:38.as our European partners do and in that, fulfil our duties as well as a

:33:39. > :33:44.prominent member of the Sectrity Council. We believe that brhnging

:33:45. > :33:50.such a case before the ICC would only increase its credibility. The

:33:51. > :33:55.ICC has been seen as weak and strong countries are not signed up. It has

:33:56. > :34:00.been criticised, particularly by the African Union, for its focus on

:34:01. > :34:03.Africa. It has only brought charges against Africans. We believd that

:34:04. > :34:11.its credibility can only be enhanced by such a case. Thank you. Thank you

:34:12. > :34:17.very much for calling me. Apologies to the House for my lateness to this

:34:18. > :34:21.debate. I would also like to begin by congratulation member for Sutton

:34:22. > :34:24.Coldfield for obtaining this debate. My honourable friend the melber for

:34:25. > :34:29.Wirral South on her passion`te and heartfelt speech. I echo yotr

:34:30. > :34:35.sentiments about how much wd miss the good sense and the good will of

:34:36. > :34:40.our lost friend, the member for Batley and Spen. I visited Lebanon

:34:41. > :34:43.last September as Labour's Shadow International Development Sdcretary

:34:44. > :34:47.and I saw the scale of the `ppalling humanitarian crisis spilling out

:34:48. > :34:55.from Syria and across the mhddle is. I stood in a sandstorm on the road

:34:56. > :34:58.to Damascus, just 12 miles from Assad's Presidential Palace so I

:34:59. > :35:02.certainly felt very close to everything that was happening. A

:35:03. > :35:08.charity worker said to me, just six miles away, there are jihadh

:35:09. > :35:12.fighters. I had been live tweeting quite a lot of the photos from the

:35:13. > :35:17.camps and at that point I thought, let's take of the geolocation of the

:35:18. > :35:22.Twitter account and let's not do any tweeting until we get back to

:35:23. > :35:27.Beirut, are safe haven. I mtst admit, I felt a bit of a coward

:35:28. > :35:33.doing that. But what we know about Syria is that 400,000 peopld have

:35:34. > :35:37.been killed in this humanit`rian catastrophe. 5 million refugees have

:35:38. > :35:41.fled their home country. 8 lillion more displaced within its l`wn

:35:42. > :35:47.bowlers. Fleeing the terror of both Assad, Isil and now Russia. I met a

:35:48. > :35:50.woman who told me how her htsband was killed in Homs while working as

:35:51. > :35:54.a Red Cross volunteer. The TN offered to take her and her children

:35:55. > :35:58.to Germany but she declined because her mother could not accomp`ny them.

:35:59. > :36:03.Four of her adult children were still trapped in Homs in cases like

:36:04. > :36:06.as demonstrate the terrible choices refugees face. You lose her husband,

:36:07. > :36:09.bring your mother with you `nd you're forced to leave your mother

:36:10. > :36:14.behind in order to seek safdty for your children. I also met a man who

:36:15. > :36:19.had a pacemaker fitted in D`mascus and who upon his return to Lebanon

:36:20. > :36:23.was deregistered as a refugde because he had left freely `nd come

:36:24. > :36:30.back in. So that left him and his wife destitute. He was 65, tnable to

:36:31. > :36:36.work, he was lying on his b`ck in a camp will stop the vulnerabhlity of

:36:37. > :36:43.those refugees is growing, `nd in Lebanon, as we heard, their food

:36:44. > :36:48.allocation has been cut, thdy are on pretty much starvation rations,

:36:49. > :36:53.capped at five family members. I met ten-year-old girls labouring in the

:36:54. > :36:57.fields is earning $4 a day `nd working one hour a day just to pay

:36:58. > :37:02.the rent. The rent for their family to pitch a little ragged tent on a

:37:03. > :37:06.disused onion factory. Thosd children's childhoods have been

:37:07. > :37:11.stolen. 8 million people ard displaced internally within Syria,

:37:12. > :37:14.having suffered attacks frol cluster munitions, chemical weapons and the

:37:15. > :37:20.collective punishment of sidge warfare. The last Syria APPG which I

:37:21. > :37:25.attended with the honourabld member for Batley and Spen, Jo Cox, we

:37:26. > :37:28.heard about 60,000 people disappearing, their families paying

:37:29. > :37:31.extortionate sums for news of their loved ones or just to receive their

:37:32. > :37:38.bodies for burial. The extermination carried out by Assad of his people.

:37:39. > :37:41.He has destroyed his countrx, he has destroyed one of the oldest

:37:42. > :37:48.civilisations in the world, he has destroyed the economy and ddstroyed

:37:49. > :37:53.all goodwill in that countrx. It is now a wartime economy, based on

:37:54. > :37:56.looting, corruption, arms and people smuggling. People living under

:37:57. > :38:02.siege, access to basic servhces denied. 11% of Syria's population, 2

:38:03. > :38:05.million people, have been wounded or injured and we have seen thd

:38:06. > :38:10.terrible suffering of Syrian children. In August of 2013, this

:38:11. > :38:16.House voted against militarx action in Syria and I share the regret of

:38:17. > :38:21.many on this side about are powerless on that. We are now living

:38:22. > :38:27.with the consequences of th`t inaction. That boat responddd by a

:38:28. > :38:36.sarin gas attack on civilians in eastern Damascus which killdd 1 00

:38:37. > :38:38.people, 426 of whom were chhldren. The UN allies military intervention

:38:39. > :38:43.to protect siblings from genocide and war crimes by the state and

:38:44. > :38:46.provides a valid legal basis for intervention, and that

:38:47. > :38:53.responsibility to protect w`ys upon us as heavily today as it dhd on

:38:54. > :38:57.that August day in 2013 when after that vote, we went home and turned

:38:58. > :39:01.on our televisions and saw that Assad had done a napalm att`ck on a

:39:02. > :39:08.school. So, using chemical weapons on sleeping children is a w`r crime.

:39:09. > :39:15.And we know, all the reasons for that vote, but we now know we have

:39:16. > :39:21.to protect civilians from Assad And now from Russian intervention as

:39:22. > :39:26.well. I will give way. Would she agree that in fact, what thd

:39:27. > :39:31.Russians are doing now to Aleppo is exactly what they did to Grozny And

:39:32. > :39:35.we need to learn the lessons from that. Absolutely, and the Rtssian

:39:36. > :39:43.war crimes in Bosnia have bden bravely documented by a journalist

:39:44. > :39:46.who was assassinated and another who was assassinated, both by the

:39:47. > :39:51.Russian regime, and truth is the first casualty of war, but we do not

:39:52. > :39:57.have the fog of war to hide behind here, people in Aleppo are tweeting

:39:58. > :40:02.their situation, tweeting their circumstances. I want to sax a brief

:40:03. > :40:05.word about Daesh. We heard from the Secretary of State for Defence

:40:06. > :40:09.yesterday about how Daesh h`s used the conflict in Syria to recruit

:40:10. > :40:14.jihadi fighters from all ovdr the world and to spread their tdrror

:40:15. > :40:19.across to Iraq. We know that the air strikes we are carrying out in Iraq

:40:20. > :40:24.and Syria, backed by a coalhtion of 67 countries, is slowly pushing them

:40:25. > :40:29.back in Iraq and they will be never defeated and Syria until thhs

:40:30. > :40:32.conflict inserted -- is Sodhi. I would only ask, has she also

:40:33. > :40:37.considered that not only is this a fight for the people and chhldren of

:40:38. > :40:43.Aleppo, but a fight very much for ourselves? The international, the

:40:44. > :40:47.mike in crisis we all see and the expansion of Russia we all feel

:40:48. > :40:55.Nato and the West and the UK demand action. I agree totally. Russia s

:40:56. > :40:58.positioning of nuclear capable warheads in Kaliningrad is `nother

:40:59. > :41:04.example of their aggression towards Nato countries. A war we wished was

:41:05. > :41:07.none of our business is our business. Syrian children h`ve

:41:08. > :41:11.drowned in our seas and millions of Syrians who turned up on our

:41:12. > :41:16.continent seeking shelter. H'm pleased Wakefield has offerdd to

:41:17. > :41:21.take 150 Syrian refugees. Wd look forward to welcoming them. These are

:41:22. > :41:26.people like us, they have c`rs and apartments, solar panels, s`tellite

:41:27. > :41:31.TV, forced to flee bombs, n`palm, sarin gas and cluster munithons A

:41:32. > :41:34.government who target schools and hospitals, aided and abetted by

:41:35. > :41:39.Russia whose sole aim is to preserve access to the Mediterranean. Russia

:41:40. > :41:43.attacked the first humanitarian aid convoy to enter Aleppo for weeks,

:41:44. > :42:21.destroying lorries filled whth baby milk and antichrist medicathon.

:42:22. > :42:26.The seven-year-old girl frol East Aleppo treated last week th`t she

:42:27. > :42:35.wanted to live like the children of London, no bombing.

:42:36. > :42:45.We need a no-fly zone over the city of aLen and over the skies of Syria.

:42:46. > :42:49.Omar and Bana are watching, we must not let them down again.

:42:50. > :42:52.May I thank you Mr Speaker for granting the time for this debate

:42:53. > :42:56.this afternoon. May I join with colleagues from across the House in

:42:57. > :43:00.congratulating the right honourable member for Sutton Coldfield for

:43:01. > :43:04.securing this debate today. There is a as we have heard an unimaginable

:43:05. > :43:08.humanitarian disaster happening right now across Syria. Nowhere more

:43:09. > :43:12.than in the largest city of Aleppo. Already as we have heard 400,00

:43:13. > :43:17.people have been killed, 15,000 of them children.

:43:18. > :43:23.In excess of one million people wounded since the onset of this war

:43:24. > :43:28.in 2011. Of course, the restlt as a result of this war, five lillion

:43:29. > :43:33.Syrians are displaced and h`ve had to flee the country. Five mhllion

:43:34. > :43:37.people, MrSpeaker, is the epuivalent to the entire population of

:43:38. > :43:41.Scotland, displaced, homeless and impoferrished. If I may, MrSpeaker,

:43:42. > :43:46.at this point I would like to pay tribute to the people of my own

:43:47. > :43:50.constituency who, with the full support of the council, the Scottish

:43:51. > :43:54.Government, and the Argyll community housing association, have rdsponded

:43:55. > :43:58.magnificently and have warmly welcomed 15 Syrian families to the

:43:59. > :44:02.gorgeous island of Bute with more scheduled to arrive in the future. I

:44:03. > :44:05.have met with the Syrian falilies and have enjoyed their kind

:44:06. > :44:08.hospitality and I am delighted to report they're settling in well and

:44:09. > :44:12.have been supported by a thoughtful and generous local communitx. I am

:44:13. > :44:16.sure this House would like to put on record its appreciation for the

:44:17. > :44:21.welcome shown by the people of Bute to the innocent men, women `nd

:44:22. > :44:28.children of Syria in their hour of greatest need. Like the honourable

:44:29. > :44:32.member, Bute has shown what we can do and I sincerely hope that we in

:44:33. > :44:38.the United Kingdom accommod`te far more Syrian families, not jtst in

:44:39. > :44:44.Argyll and Bute or Scotland but across the UK. Those few falilies on

:44:45. > :44:50.Bute are the lucky ones, because they've managed to escape the hell

:44:51. > :44:53.on earth their country has become. Although men of the people H met are

:44:54. > :44:58.born in Aleppo, I doubt thex would recognise it today. The UN dnvoy to

:44:59. > :45:02.Syria said he feared the eastern part of the city could be totally

:45:03. > :45:06.destroyed within two months. This follows on from the bombing of

:45:07. > :45:12.Syria's largest hospital, which was hit by seven air strikes on the

:45:13. > :45:17.morning of October 1st, then as repairs started, it was hit again

:45:18. > :45:23.the following day. As we have heard, a shocking attack undoubtedly a war

:45:24. > :45:27.crime, a UN aid convoy was deliberately targeted, an attack

:45:28. > :45:34.that killed 20 people. The World Health Organisation said in the week

:45:35. > :45:39.to September 30th at least 338 Aleppo residents, including 106

:45:40. > :45:45.children were killed. MrSpe`ker there is overwhelming evidence that

:45:46. > :45:48.the Assad regime and Russian allies are deliberately targeting

:45:49. > :45:54.civilians, hospitals, emergdncy medical teams and first responders.

:45:55. > :45:59.As the honourable member sahd, this regime stands accused with `llies of

:46:00. > :46:04.using a method known as two,tap strike in which they bomb an area,

:46:05. > :46:09.circle, giving time for medhcal responders to attend and thdn return

:46:10. > :46:16.to bomb the rescuers. If thhs is true, it is a des pickably cynical

:46:17. > :46:21.tactic that even amid the horror of this conflict leaves one spdechless

:46:22. > :46:27.at its depravity. Today, in eastern Aleppo, a city officially under

:46:28. > :46:32.siege, there are only 35 doctors to care for a quarter of a million

:46:33. > :46:37.residents. It is the biggest besieged area by far, but pdople

:46:38. > :46:40.still ask what can we do? What can we do when there is such ch`os on

:46:41. > :46:46.the ground and in the skies above Syria? Well, what I would s`y to the

:46:47. > :46:49.Government is that as a protagonist in this conflict it is absolutely

:46:50. > :46:55.incumbent on the United Kingdom to be part of the solution. Thd

:46:56. > :46:58.Government has to produce a coherent plan and a sensible strategx that

:46:59. > :47:03.immediately halts the air strikes campaign that the UK is involved in

:47:04. > :47:07.because as the Foreign Secrdtary himself said on August 19th, I

:47:08. > :47:13.quote, it is only when the fighting and bombing stops that we c`n hope

:47:14. > :47:19.to deliver the political solution. That means everyone's bombs, Foreign

:47:20. > :47:23.Secretary, including our own. As Andy Barker of Oxfam said, ht's not

:47:24. > :47:27.only Russia, it's other nathons too, Britain among them, have fudlled the

:47:28. > :47:33.fire of this conflict, conthnuing to support one side or another and

:47:34. > :47:38.failing to deliver a peace. The Foreign Secretary and Oxfam are

:47:39. > :47:43.right. And adding UK jets and bombs to this prolonged and agonising war

:47:44. > :47:53.has not and will not bring `bout a lasting peace. I will give way. I am

:47:54. > :47:58.aware of time. Is he suggesting that the UKunilaterrally stop its actions

:47:59. > :48:08.in Syria and if so how does he think Russia and Assad would react to such

:48:09. > :48:10.a withdrawal? The United Kingdom unilaterally joined this fight

:48:11. > :48:15.promising this would be a phvotal and turning point in the calpaign.

:48:16. > :48:18.It has sing u lashly failed to do so and we have to take a different

:48:19. > :48:22.tack, we have to have bravery and courage to stand up and say that we

:48:23. > :48:30.were wrong to do what we did last year and we have to take a different

:48:31. > :48:34.tack. MrSpeaker, almost exactly a year ago we were told of - we asked

:48:35. > :48:38.a series of questions off the Government. None of which wdre

:48:39. > :48:44.answered in the head-long rtsh to join this conflict. So I ask again,

:48:45. > :48:48.how when there are already lore than a dozen different countries engaged

:48:49. > :48:53.in military action has UK ahr strikes brought peace and stability

:48:54. > :48:58.closer to Syria? Where is the UK Government's detailed plan for

:48:59. > :49:03.winning and securing the pe`ce? I am aware of time constraints. @nd where

:49:04. > :49:08.is the money for the reconstruction of Syria to come from when the

:49:09. > :49:14.bombing ends? We need to act decisively and we need to act with

:49:15. > :49:18.our allies and friends. Bec`use as the French Foreign Minister said

:49:19. > :49:22.just last week, if we do not do something, Aleppo will soon just be

:49:23. > :49:28.in ruins and will remain in history as a town in which the inhabitants

:49:29. > :49:32.were abandoned to their executioners.

:49:33. > :49:36.Thank you, MrSpeaker. I also would like to thank the member for Sutton

:49:37. > :49:42.Coldfield for bringing forw`rd this debate. And for you, MrSpeaker, for

:49:43. > :49:45.granting it. As I rise to speak today I am mindful it is little

:49:46. > :49:51.under a year since the vote on whether the UK should join the

:49:52. > :49:57.US-led coalition air strikes against Daesh in Syria and those of us on

:49:58. > :50:02.the SNP benches did not support the military action. Any case for air

:50:03. > :50:06.strikes that the Government believed to exist is now completely falling

:50:07. > :50:11.apart. There is a very clear need for a revised military strategy

:50:12. > :50:13.this is needed urgently and they must not ignore the extreme

:50:14. > :50:18.humanitarian situation in the country. When the former Prhme

:50:19. > :50:26.Minister addressed the Housd on 26th November last year he said, and I

:50:27. > :50:29.quote, all these elements, counterterrorism, political and

:50:30. > :50:34.diplomatic, military and humanitarian need to happen together

:50:35. > :50:38.to achieve a long-term solution in Syria, regrettably it very luch

:50:39. > :50:43.appears that these words have not been followed up with any coherent

:50:44. > :50:48.strategy that would have thdm realised. The humanitarian dlement

:50:49. > :50:51.is seemingly discarded when at the expense of a military agend` and I

:50:52. > :50:54.know that the response from the Government will be to inforl us of

:50:55. > :50:59.how many billions of pounds have been spent and will be spent in

:51:00. > :51:04.rebuilding Syria after the war. The great problem is that these words

:51:05. > :51:09.are meaningless at present to the suffering civilians of Syri`.

:51:10. > :51:15.According to the Syrian campaign over 100,000 children are bding

:51:16. > :51:20.bombed in Aleppo. Figures from the Syrian human rights observatory

:51:21. > :51:23.place the total number of children killed in the conflict at over

:51:24. > :51:28.13,000. Since the ceasefire collapsed less than three wdeks ago,

:51:29. > :51:32.over 100 children have been killed out of a total of around 600

:51:33. > :51:39.civilians. Please stop to think about that. That is the equhvalent

:51:40. > :51:44.of a primary school class bding slaughtered every five days. The

:51:45. > :51:50.humanitarian crisis in Syri` just continues to get worse. Over 40 ,000

:51:51. > :51:55.people have already been killed since 2011 and the United N`tions

:51:56. > :52:00.estimate that more than half of the country's prewar population of 3

:52:01. > :52:04.million is urgently in need of humanitarian aid. Millions of people

:52:05. > :52:10.are being displaced, four mhllion are living as refugees outshde Syria

:52:11. > :52:15.and at least eight million lore displaced inside the countrx.

:52:16. > :52:19.Amnesty International estim`te that 50 families for every hour of the

:52:20. > :52:23.conflict have been uprooted from their homes in Syria. Humanhtarian

:52:24. > :52:29.aid is being blocked from gdtting to those who need it by the Assad

:52:30. > :52:35.regime and hospitals are behng systemically targeted by Assad and

:52:36. > :52:41.Russia and an estimated 382 medical facilities have been destroxed. I

:52:42. > :52:43.will give way. Thank you. The honourable lady is understandably

:52:44. > :52:47.painting a heart-rending picture of what is happening in Syria, it seems

:52:48. > :52:51.as if the SNP's position, h`ving listened to two speeches now, is to

:52:52. > :52:58.equate our military intervention with that of Putin and to argue we

:52:59. > :53:04.should step aside from this carnage and that we should somehow hope that

:53:05. > :53:09.the unilateral act on our p`rt will instill in Assad a spirit of

:53:10. > :53:14.generosity to his own peopld he shuz not shown. Does she not realise how

:53:15. > :53:17.absurd the snp's position is and will she not recognise it is only by

:53:18. > :53:22.both military engagement and humanitarian work that we whll be

:53:23. > :53:29.able to bring relief to the suffering people of that cotntry? I

:53:30. > :53:34.think the honourable member is missing the fact that we ard not

:53:35. > :53:38.denying the brutality being inflicted by Assad and Russhan

:53:39. > :53:43.forces, is beyond comprehension However, the role that we c`n and

:53:44. > :53:50.should be play something ond of a humanitarian and a diplomathc one.

:53:51. > :53:54.That should be our role, I believe. In an utterly shocking attack, one

:53:55. > :53:59.that possibly amounts to a war crime, a UN aid convoy was struck in

:54:00. > :54:04.an air strike which killed `t least 20 people. The reality is that there

:54:05. > :54:09.is utter chaos as I have just said on the ground and in the skhes over

:54:10. > :54:14.Syria and just last month the MoD confirmed that the UK was involved

:54:15. > :54:19.in air strikes that killed `t least 62 Syrian Government troops. We have

:54:20. > :54:23.become part of the chaos. It has been mentioned by other members

:54:24. > :54:27.about the work of the white helmets which I would like to mention, as

:54:28. > :54:34.well. They have saved thous`nds of lives and continue to do so on a

:54:35. > :54:37.daily basis and recently were nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize.

:54:38. > :54:43.As the bombs rained down, they don't stop, they rush in to save

:54:44. > :54:48.civilians. They are the heros in this conflict. The UK Government

:54:49. > :54:51.needs to immediately halt its air strikes in Syria and present

:54:52. > :54:57.parliament with an alternathve coherent plan. We need a sensible

:54:58. > :55:01.strategy, one that actually ensures that the humanitarian situation is

:55:02. > :55:06.not cast aside. We can make a difference in this conflict and we

:55:07. > :55:10.can play some part, no mattdr how small. In minimising the hulan

:55:11. > :55:16.suffering of this horrific war. It's time for the Government to `dmit,

:55:17. > :55:21.however, that it does require a complete change of strategy to do

:55:22. > :55:27.so. The Foreign Secretary, LrBoris Johnson. Thank you very much,

:55:28. > :55:32.MrSpeaker. I want to congratulate my right honourable friend for Sutton

:55:33. > :55:36.Coldfield in securing this valuable debate and I commend him on the

:55:37. > :55:41.power of his speech. I also want to thank you MrSpeaker for granting

:55:42. > :55:45.this debate. We have had 43 speeches or sper ventions from right

:55:46. > :55:52.honourable and honourable mdmbers and I think every one has m`de clear

:55:53. > :55:58.the horror of this House at the suffering being endured by the

:55:59. > :56:03.people of Aleppo. Where rebdl-held districts have come under ftrious

:56:04. > :56:09.attack from the Assad regimd, from Russia, and with the help, of

:56:10. > :56:17.course, of Iranian-backed mhlitias. Let me spell out some of thd

:56:18. > :56:21.consequences. At this moment the 275,000 inhabitants of eastdrn

:56:22. > :56:26.Aleppo are under siege. Thex are isolated from the outside world

:56:27. > :56:31.subjected to constant bombardment and prevented from receiving

:56:32. > :56:38.humanitarian aid. Their power and water supplhes have

:56:39. > :56:44.been cut off in what has become a signature tactic of the Ass`d

:56:45. > :56:50.killing machine. To besiege civilian populations, and what we ard now

:56:51. > :56:53.seeing in eastern Aleppo is the biggest and potentially the

:56:54. > :56:55.deadliest siege since the ottbreak of Syria's civil war over fhve years

:56:56. > :57:06.ago. Lastly, the UN special for Syria

:57:07. > :57:13.warned that a similar poll ,- Special Envoy, was that Syrha may be

:57:14. > :57:16.totally destroyed by the end of this year. In the last few weeks, at

:57:17. > :57:24.least 376 people, half of them children, have been killed. Another

:57:25. > :57:29.1266 have been injured. Every hospital in eastern Aleppo hs

:57:30. > :57:32.believed to have been bombed, some of them more than once and several

:57:33. > :57:38.have been put out of action. Hospitals have been targeted with

:57:39. > :57:46.such frequency and precision that it is difficult to avoid the conclusion

:57:47. > :57:50.that this must be deliberatd policy. The House will know that

:57:51. > :57:57.intentionally attacking a hospital amounts to a war crime. It hs time,

:57:58. > :58:02.I think, for all these incidents to be properly and fully investigated,

:58:03. > :58:06.with a view to assembling the necessary evidence to ensurd that

:58:07. > :58:10.justice is done. And yes, to answer the questions being raised by

:58:11. > :58:14.several ball -- by several lembers, we do think there could be `n

:58:15. > :58:20.advantage in the ICC procedtres I would remind this House that in

:58:21. > :58:26.recent history, war criminals have been successfully prosecuted decades

:58:27. > :58:33.after their offences. I will give way. Would my right honourable

:58:34. > :58:41.friend agree on that very point that this catastrophe represents a

:58:42. > :58:45.terrible failure of the sectrity ordnance that protects our very

:58:46. > :58:49.civilisation and that if thdse prosecutions are not made, `

:58:50. > :58:56.terrible, terrible failure will be laid at our door? Lb I cert`inly

:58:57. > :59:00.agree. We are all charged in this house by our actions and our resolve

:59:01. > :59:03.and I think it was the membdr for Sutton Coldfield who spoke of the

:59:04. > :59:09.will of this House and I'm `fraid that was absent three years ago

:59:10. > :59:13.when we took a historic dechsion then not to intervene and I hope we

:59:14. > :59:21.will show a different measure of resolve this afternoon. Those who

:59:22. > :59:25.are conducting this bombing had to are, in my view, culpable of these

:59:26. > :59:32.kinds, should realise the mhlls of justice grind slowly and thdy grind

:59:33. > :59:36.small. The same penalties should apply to those involved in

:59:37. > :59:43.deliberate attacks on humanhtarian convoys, as many have pointdd out.

:59:44. > :59:49.In September, a UN aid convoy was destroyed in Aleppo, killing at

:59:50. > :59:54.least 20 people. The vehiclds were clearly marked and the convoy had

:59:55. > :59:57.official permission from Assad regime to deliver these desperately

:59:58. > :00:03.needed supplies. Satellite photographs in the public domain

:00:04. > :00:10.leave no doubt that the convoy was struck from the air. The incident

:00:11. > :00:15.took place after dark. By Rtssia's own account, the warplanes of

:00:16. > :00:21.Syria's regime cannot themsdlves strike targets after dark. @nd by

:00:22. > :00:26.Russia's own account, it is own -- its own aircraft were in thd

:00:27. > :00:29.vicinity at the time. All the available -- available eviddnce

:00:30. > :00:33.therefore points to Russian responsibility for the atrocity I

:00:34. > :00:39.trust the UN board of enquiry will establish exactly what happdned We

:00:40. > :00:48.in the UK Government stand ready to help. I emphasise that it is the UK,

:00:49. > :00:53.week after week, that is taking the lead, together with our allhes in

:00:54. > :00:56.the Marikana and France, -- in America, all the like-minded

:00:57. > :01:04.nations, in highlighting wh`t is happening in Syria, to a world where

:01:05. > :01:09.I'm afraid the wells of outrage are growing exhausted, and I listened to

:01:10. > :01:22.the passionate speeches frol the honourable member from Wirr`l South,

:01:23. > :01:32.a who is carrying on the tr`dition of Jo Cox, whom we mourn. I listened

:01:33. > :01:40.to all the speeches who madd the point that there is no commdnsurate

:01:41. > :01:50.horror, it seems, amongst some of those anti-war protest groups. I

:01:51. > :01:53.would like to see demonstrations against the Russian Embassy. Where

:01:54. > :02:06.is the Stop the War Coalition at the moment? And I believe that ht is up

:02:07. > :02:12.to us in the Government to show a lead, and week after week in the UN,

:02:13. > :02:17.we are indeed doing what we can to point out what the Russians are to,

:02:18. > :02:24.to build an international understanding of what is gohng on in

:02:25. > :02:28.Syria. I believe we are havhng some effect. As members have pointed out,

:02:29. > :02:34.five times now, the Russians have been driven to mount a veto in the

:02:35. > :02:43.Security Council to protect their own position. I am not... This is

:02:44. > :02:48.some anti-Russian campaign, we do not do it out of any partictlar

:02:49. > :02:53.hostility to Russia, in fact, I think the House will observd that

:02:54. > :02:59.John Kerry, the US Secretarx of State, did his utmost to negotiate

:03:00. > :03:05.an agreement with Sergei Lavrov that would at least have reduced the

:03:06. > :03:11.killing. Anybody who studied the Lavrov- Kerry talks will th`t John

:03:12. > :03:16.Kerry threw himself into th`t task in a Herculean way. On October the

:03:17. > :03:23.3rd, he was driven to abandon his efforts by that attack on that aid

:03:24. > :03:30.convoy, and the pounding of Aleppo, which destroyed all hopes of a

:03:31. > :03:37.ceasefire. The US Secretary of State has concluded, I think rightly, that

:03:38. > :03:43.Russia was determined to help Assad's onslaught against the women,

:03:44. > :03:52.the children and families of Aleppo, regardless of any agreement. So .. I

:03:53. > :03:55.will give way. Could he takd this opportunity to tell the House

:03:56. > :03:59.whether he supports the French proposal, that when it comes to the

:04:00. > :04:06.permanent five members of the UN Security Council, in the case of war

:04:07. > :04:10.crimes, crimes against humanity the five permanent members should

:04:11. > :04:14.voluntarily undertake to give up the veto to enable the Security Council

:04:15. > :04:19.to take action when the scene as crimes are being committed, as is

:04:20. > :04:25.clearly the case in Syria and Aleppo currently? I am in constant touch

:04:26. > :04:31.with our French colleagues `bout this proposal and I have sahd

:04:32. > :04:37.earlier, I am personally very attracted to the idea of holding

:04:38. > :04:39.these people to account before the International Criminal Court. So,

:04:40. > :04:47.that is certainly something I would like to pursue. I will give way

:04:48. > :04:52.Does the Foreign Secretary not think that more weight be attached to the

:04:53. > :04:54.strength of his words on thd International Criminal Court of it

:04:55. > :05:01.was not the case that anothdr country, another regime, Prdsident

:05:02. > :05:03.Bush Saddam, who has also bden bombing his people and who has

:05:04. > :05:09.recently been seen to be ushng chemical weapons against his people

:05:10. > :05:13.and has been indicted by thd ICC for genocide, crimes against hulanity,

:05:14. > :05:19.if his regime was not now bding embraced by the UK Government in a

:05:20. > :05:22.strategic dialogue as a partner in managing migration and countering

:05:23. > :05:29.terrorism? It is vital that we concentrate our efforts and our

:05:30. > :05:32.sensor on the Russians and the Assad regime, who are primarily

:05:33. > :05:35.responsible for what is going on. We could get lost endlessly and also is

:05:36. > :05:40.of more than -- moral equiv`lence is. I heard an earlier one from the

:05:41. > :05:46.SNP. It is vital we focus on is happening in Syria, that is the

:05:47. > :05:54.question before us this aftdrnoon. As I see, I must say bluntlx to the

:05:55. > :05:59.House that if Russia contintes in its current path, I believe that

:06:00. > :06:06.great country is in danger of becoming a pariah nation. If

:06:07. > :06:12.President Putin's strategy hs to restore the greatness and the glory

:06:13. > :06:16.of Russia, I believe he risks seeing his ambition turned to ashes in the

:06:17. > :06:22.face of international contelpt for what is happening in Syria. Russia

:06:23. > :06:28.tries to justify its onslaught in Aleppo by saying that its sole aim

:06:29. > :06:35.is to drive out the militants, the Syrian branch of Al-Qaeda. No one

:06:36. > :06:41.questions that these people are terrorists. But their presence in

:06:42. > :06:48.that city cannot justify an assault on 275,000 innocent people, still

:06:49. > :06:54.less the imposition of a sidge, by its very nature, and indiscriminate

:06:55. > :06:58.tactic. And I agree with thd friends of the UN special the Russi`ns

:06:59. > :07:04.should not be able to use the presence of the militants as an

:07:05. > :07:07.alibi. I give way. I am grateful. Is making a very powerful speech. I

:07:08. > :07:11.wondered if he would go further in relation to the Special Envoy and

:07:12. > :07:15.when -- if you would be in ` position to say that the Brhtish

:07:16. > :07:18.Government would support his initiative to escort the jihadi

:07:19. > :07:21.fighters out of eastern Aleppo so that the Russians have no longer an

:07:22. > :07:30.excuse to bombard section of the city? -- bomb that section. I will

:07:31. > :07:37.come in a minute to the way forward for Aleppo. Let me just remhnd the

:07:38. > :07:44.House of all the ways in whhch the UK is trying to be of use and trying

:07:45. > :07:55.to solve the situation. I p`y tribute to several members, the

:07:56. > :07:59.white owners, who have rescted people from the rubble, thex are

:08:00. > :08:04.funded partly by the UK Govdrnment, they are doing a thorough job, 42

:08:05. > :08:09.of them of the 3000 have bedn killed in the line of duty, 400 wotnded.

:08:10. > :08:15.Britain is in the forefront of this humanitarian response to thd Syrian

:08:16. > :08:20.crisis, and we have pledged ?2. billion, the largest response,

:08:21. > :08:25.second largest response apart from the United States. We can bd proud

:08:26. > :08:31.in our country of the help we are giving to hundreds of thous`nds of

:08:32. > :08:34.people. Britain has done a huge amount to mobilise the international

:08:35. > :08:40.community. I pay tribute to the work of my right honourable friend is on

:08:41. > :08:46.the bench next to me. In February, we co-hosted a conference which

:08:47. > :08:50.secured pledges of more than $1 billion, the largest ever pledge in

:08:51. > :08:53.a one-day conference. To answer the questions that have been rahsed

:08:54. > :09:02.about whether we're taking dnough of the refugees will stop of course we

:09:03. > :09:09.should take our share. I thhnk the overwhelming priority is to help

:09:10. > :09:14.those nearest the centres of conflict and to keep them as near to

:09:15. > :09:21.their communities as we can. Coming to the questions that have been

:09:22. > :09:26.raised by members in the cotrse of this debate, many members h`ve said

:09:27. > :09:32.how strongly they want this country to go further. The member for

:09:33. > :09:37.Tunbridge Wells and others have spoken about no-fly zones or no

:09:38. > :09:46.bombing zones. I have every sympathy with those ideas and for thd motives

:09:47. > :09:49.behind them. We must work through all of these types of options

:09:50. > :09:54.together with our allies, ghven that I think this House is not committed

:09:55. > :10:00.to putting boots on the grotnd. But we cannot commit to a no-flx zone

:10:01. > :10:08.unless we are prepared to confront and perhaps, as my honourable friend

:10:09. > :10:15.behind has already said, we cannot do that unless we are prepared to

:10:16. > :10:18.shoot down planes or helicopters that violate that zone. We need to

:10:19. > :10:26.think very carefully about the consequences. I must make some

:10:27. > :10:34.progress. We must, of coursd, consult about this as widelx as

:10:35. > :10:42.possible and I will certainly be talking to everybody involvdd in

:10:43. > :10:45.name 1991 effort to provide no-fly zones over northern Iraq. Wd have to

:10:46. > :10:50.make sure we have innovativd ways of getting aid into the Aleppo and all

:10:51. > :10:56.seven members have said we have to step up the pressure on Ass`d's

:10:57. > :11:00.regime through sanctions. Of course, also on the Russians through

:11:01. > :11:08.sanctions. I listened careftlly to what was said and I think the House

:11:09. > :11:13.will accept there is a cert`in friability in the European resolve

:11:14. > :11:19.to impose sanctions on Russha. Given the large dependency of manx

:11:20. > :11:23.European countries on Russi`n gas, and it is vital that our cotntry

:11:24. > :11:31.remains in the forefront of keeping that resolve on crumbling, which is

:11:32. > :11:37.what we are doing. In the long term, to get to her point, the only

:11:38. > :11:42.realistic solution is to persuade both sides to have a ceasefhre, and

:11:43. > :11:46.then to work to a political solution.

:11:47. > :11:54.It is true that process has been stopped since April when thd

:11:55. > :11:59.ceasefire was destroyed. Th`t doesn't mean that the process is

:12:00. > :12:04.dead. It must not mean that the process is dead. On the contrary,

:12:05. > :12:10.this country and this Government has worked to keep that flame of hope

:12:11. > :12:16.alive and to work for a settlement and on the 7th September we hosted a

:12:17. > :12:20.session in London with the high negotiations committee of the Syrian

:12:21. > :12:29.opposition and they set out a detailed and progressive vision for

:12:30. > :12:33.how to achieve a transition in Syria towards a democratic, pluralist

:12:34. > :12:41.administration in which the rights of all communities in that country

:12:42. > :12:45.would be respected but which also preserved the stability and the

:12:46. > :12:52.institutions of the Syrian state. While at the same time getthng rid

:12:53. > :12:56.of the Assad regime. Now, I believe - I will give way. Before wd run out

:12:57. > :13:01.of time, could I refocus thd right honourable member on the qudstion

:13:02. > :13:05.that I asked, which is about getting rid of the jihadi fighters from

:13:06. > :13:11.eastern Aleppo? Yes, well, as the right honourable

:13:12. > :13:14.lady will understand, you c`n't get rid of the jihadi fighters from

:13:15. > :13:19.eastern Aleppo as long as the population of Aleppo is being bombed

:13:20. > :13:25.in a ruthless aerial bombardment which is, I am afraid, drivhng

:13:26. > :13:33.people into a position in which they will do anything to fight and resist

:13:34. > :13:39.the Assad regime. Our best hope is to persuade the Russians th`t it is

:13:40. > :13:45.profoundly in the interests of Russia to take the initiative, to

:13:46. > :13:51.win the acclaim of the international community, do the right thing in

:13:52. > :13:57.Syria, call off their puppets in the Assad regime, stop the bombhng and

:13:58. > :14:05.bring peace to Aleppo. And to have a genuine ceasefire. And that is the

:14:06. > :14:09.way, that - I am perfectly prepared to look at the proposals for leading

:14:10. > :14:13.out al-nusra and the rest and perhaps bring in a UN contingent,

:14:14. > :14:18.that all sounds eminently sdnsible bau ceasefire and the end of the

:14:19. > :14:22.Russian bombardment has got to come first and I hope she gress with

:14:23. > :14:29.that. I think there are millions of people in Syria who are yearning for

:14:30. > :14:35.that outcome and for a return to talks and I hope also that they will

:14:36. > :14:39.hear the passion of this debate here this afternoon and they will

:14:40. > :14:44.recognise, of course, there are no easy solutions, no Pat answdrs to

:14:45. > :14:48.this. But they also know th`t this House and our constituents `re

:14:49. > :14:52.disgusted by the behaviour of Assad and his regime and that in Loscow

:14:53. > :14:56.and in Damascus I hope they will hear the message from British MPs

:14:57. > :15:00.that we are willing to conshder anything honestly and practhcally

:15:01. > :15:04.that can be done to bring pdace and hope back to Syria, I am gr`teful to

:15:05. > :15:07.all members who have spoken so passionately this afternoon. Thank

:15:08. > :15:16.you. Order. The question is that this

:15:17. > :15:21.House has considered the unfolding humanitarian catastrophe in Aleppo

:15:22. > :15:27.and more widely across Syri`? As many of that opinion say ayd. To the

:15:28. > :15:38.contrary no. I think the ayds have it. Order. May I thank colldagues

:15:39. > :15:40.for taking part in this deb`te and for the comprehensiveness whth which

:15:41. > :15:47.they've addressed this important issue. Order. The clerk will proceed

:15:48. > :15:55.to read the orders of the d`y. Small charitable donations and chhld care

:15:56. > :16:06.payments bill, second reading. To move the second reading of the bill

:16:07. > :16:09.I call the Minister. If colleagues leaving could do so quickly and

:16:10. > :16:15.quietly that will be apprechated. I call the Minister. Thank yot, very

:16:16. > :16:22.much, MrSpeaker. I beg to move that the bill be now read a second time.

:16:23. > :16:27.I would obviously welcome the number of colleagues who have remahned in

:16:28. > :16:30.the chamber after the important debate that's just happened and I am

:16:31. > :16:34.sure that they're going to contribute to the debate on this

:16:35. > :16:39.important and I hope uncontroversial topic as we set out to give further

:16:40. > :16:43.support to our fantastic ch`rities sector. Because although thd changes

:16:44. > :16:47.that this bill proposes are relatively minor amendments, they

:16:48. > :16:49.are nonetheless really important and they're important because in

:16:50. > :16:54.practical ways they can further the support we give to our outstanding

:16:55. > :16:57.charities sector in this cotntry as well as with regard to the child

:16:58. > :17:02.care payments part of the bhll helping families with child care.

:17:03. > :17:07.So, if I may, I will take both of these aspects in turn and I will

:17:08. > :17:11.start with the bills measurds to help the UK's charity sector.

:17:12. > :17:15.Because I am sure that I spdak for everyone in this House when I say

:17:16. > :17:20.that I am enormously proud of the fantastic work done by charhtable

:17:21. > :17:24.organisations in this country. Obviously, as the member for

:17:25. > :17:31.Battersea, might forgive me if I pause to make special mention of one

:17:32. > :17:35.of those charities, the fantastic animal charity the dog and cats

:17:36. > :17:38.home, one of the most famous charities in the world, let alone

:17:39. > :17:44.this country, which finds ndw homes for thousands of animals evdry year

:17:45. > :17:55.and the Treasury has been a beneficiary of their efforts with

:17:56. > :17:57.the appointment of a new cat. Across this country, across our

:17:58. > :18:01.constituencies, you will sed charities of all shapes and sizes at

:18:02. > :18:05.the heart of our communities, whether it's the large charhties

:18:06. > :18:09.working here in the UK and `cross the world, researching cures for

:18:10. > :18:12.diseases are running relief efforts for those suffering from conflict or

:18:13. > :18:17.crisis, obviously at the molent Haiti is in our minds, but obviously

:18:18. > :18:21.the House has just been deb`ting Syria where so many charitids are

:18:22. > :18:25.doing such brave and import`nt work. Right through from those larger

:18:26. > :18:29.organisations, to the smalldr more specialised charities, run by just a

:18:30. > :18:34.handful of dedicated voluntders We want to give them all the stpport

:18:35. > :18:39.they deserve. Just last year alone we provided more than ?5 billion to

:18:40. > :18:44.help our charities do more of that brilliant work. Now, of course, one

:18:45. > :18:48.of the biggest ways we give additional revenue is through Gift

:18:49. > :18:52.Aid and that's worth around ?1. 3 billion last year. We want `s many

:18:53. > :18:57.charities as possible to benefit from this but as things stand it's

:18:58. > :19:00.just not always practical or feasible for charities to claim

:19:01. > :19:04.through this. If you are out there collecting money with a bucket, for

:19:05. > :19:08.example, you can hardly ask someone to fill in a Gift Aid declaration

:19:09. > :19:12.form alongside that handful of small change. That's why as many

:19:13. > :19:17.colleagues who were here in the last parliament will remember th`t's why

:19:18. > :19:21.in 2013 we introduced the Ghft Aid small donations scheme to allow

:19:22. > :19:26.charities and community amateur sports clubs to claim a Gift

:19:27. > :19:29.Aid-style top-up payment on donations received in circulstances

:19:30. > :19:32.where it is just difficult or burdensome to obtain a Gift Aid

:19:33. > :19:37.declaration. Now, it's important to point out that this scheme hs not a

:19:38. > :19:41.replacement for Gift Aid. And where charities can obtain Gift Ahd

:19:42. > :19:45.declaration they should do so. Because unlike Gift Aid, whhch is a

:19:46. > :19:48.tax relief linked to the donor's tax contribution, the Gift Aid small

:19:49. > :19:52.donations scheme is a public spending measure which sees the

:19:53. > :19:56.Government pay a top-up of 25p for every pound of eligible don`tions

:19:57. > :20:00.received, regardless of the tax status of the donor. So this scheme

:20:01. > :20:04.was designed to work as a complement to Gift Aid. When we introdtced it

:20:05. > :20:07.we promised we would review how the scheme was working after three years

:20:08. > :20:11.and we have done this. It's therefore a pleasure as a rdsult of

:20:12. > :20:16.that review to introduce three measures under this bill whhch will

:20:17. > :20:20.make further improvements to the scheme. I thank the honourable lady

:20:21. > :20:26.for giving way before going into more detail. I fully apprechate the

:20:27. > :20:32.need for extra simplicity. Wouldn't a bold step be to assume th`t all

:20:33. > :20:35.charitable donations are subject to tax relief overall? I appreciate

:20:36. > :20:42.that can't be done straight`way because of the enormous sums but

:20:43. > :20:44.that could be the trajectorx this Government takes to make tax

:20:45. > :20:51.treatment of charities incrddibly simple indeed?

:20:52. > :20:56.Well, the honourable gentlelan is right that we are seeking as much

:20:57. > :21:00.simplicity as we can get. I think as I will come on to and during the

:21:01. > :21:04.course of the debate, we want to make sure that simplicity goes

:21:05. > :21:10.alongside a degree of assur`nce and finding that balance is perhaps one

:21:11. > :21:17.of the areas where there will be perhaps a range of views but we are

:21:18. > :21:22.keen that we have a degree of assurance around the claims that are

:21:23. > :21:26.made and the public money ghven to charities. It might help colleagues

:21:27. > :21:29.to know that John Low, just referring to the consultation that

:21:30. > :21:33.has taken place, John Low, the chief executive of the charities `id

:21:34. > :21:36.foundation, has said that the small charitable donations bill could be

:21:37. > :21:40.good news for charities, particularly for small organisations

:21:41. > :21:45.which have often struggled to unlock the benefits of Gift Aid. And this

:21:46. > :21:50.provides a real opportunity to simplify the scheme to my honourable

:21:51. > :21:54.- to my hob honourable friend's point to simplify the schemd and

:21:55. > :22:02.make it fit for the 21st century. I thank the Minister for giving way. I

:22:03. > :22:05.know small charities in my constituency, particularly ` garden

:22:06. > :22:10.project, part of the Abbey Trust, is a small organisation dependdnt on

:22:11. > :22:13.small donations, I wonder what plans she has to communicate out to those

:22:14. > :22:18.small charities the benefits of the kind of scheme she's outloaning

:22:19. > :22:24.today? -- Outlining today. My honotrable

:22:25. > :22:28.friend might be interested to know that actually the HMRC have a team

:22:29. > :22:33.go out promoting these scheles. I was really impressed to read they've

:22:34. > :22:37.made over 600 presentations since 2014 to charities of all sorts of

:22:38. > :22:43.sizes up and down the country. But he is right to say that we can

:22:44. > :22:50.always do more. I am sure that I hope as a result of this bill and

:22:51. > :22:54.this debate that colleagues will feel that they too can play an

:22:55. > :22:58.important role in telling their charities in their local arda the

:22:59. > :23:02.good news that the scheme jtst got easier because obviously we all have

:23:03. > :23:04.so much contact, particularly I would say with smaller charhties,

:23:05. > :23:10.and get to know them over the years we represent them. So, thesd changes

:23:11. > :23:11.are the result of months of consultation and constructive

:23:12. > :23:18.discussion with the charitids sector. I would like to takd this

:23:19. > :23:22.opportunity to thank the hundreds of charities, representative bodies and

:23:23. > :23:28.other organisations that all worked with HMRC to make this revidw work.

:23:29. > :23:32.The first feature, where we make it proposing changes, the he whll jiblt

:23:33. > :23:35.criteria. So the bill will lake an important change to the criteria for

:23:36. > :23:39.charities to be eligible for the Gift Aid small donations scheme

:23:40. > :23:43.Currently a charity must have been registered for at least two full tax

:23:44. > :23:47.years and to have claimed Ghft Aid in at least two of the prevhous four

:23:48. > :23:52.tax years. Without a gap of longer than a year. Obviously this is

:23:53. > :23:56.around the assurance process. This bill will remove these critdria

:23:57. > :23:59.allowing newer and smaller charities to access the scheme sooner and I

:24:00. > :24:03.think that as we all know, those early years for a charity are

:24:04. > :24:06.important and so I think th`t this change will provide a welcole

:24:07. > :24:14.financial boost when it's most needed. This is a substanti`l

:24:15. > :24:18.simplification, so that the only remaining eligiblity criterha that

:24:19. > :24:22.others will need to meet is the Gift Aid matching requirement under which

:24:23. > :24:26.charities must claim ?1 of full Gift Aid for every ?10 claimed under the

:24:27. > :24:30.small donations scheme. Now, let me say why we feel it's necess`ry to

:24:31. > :24:34.retain this rule. There are two reasons. The first is to incentivise

:24:35. > :24:37.charities to engage with thd full Gift Aid scheme, providing them with

:24:38. > :24:44.even greater income over thd longer term. The second is to protdct the

:24:45. > :24:47.small donations scheme which has substantially fewer record-keeping

:24:48. > :24:52.requirements than Gift Aid, from fraud. This was, of course, a

:24:53. > :24:56.important factor looked at when the scheme was first designed b`ck in

:24:57. > :24:59.2012. It's by maintaining this rule to match donations under thd scheme

:25:00. > :25:04.with Gift Aid donation that is we can best do that. We are thdrefore

:25:05. > :25:07.simplifying the rules as far as possible to awill you as many

:25:08. > :25:12.charities to benefit whilst protecting the integrity of the

:25:13. > :25:18.scheme at the same time. Of course. Whilst I fully stpport

:25:19. > :25:22.the point the Minister is m`king, I can see a time when it is ddcided

:25:23. > :25:27.that link is not the correct link in the future in review. Would the

:25:28. > :25:32.Minister consider in committee adding an addition of a clatse that

:25:33. > :25:37.will allow us to take out that requirement without going through

:25:38. > :25:40.the legislative process in this House once again, effectively

:25:41. > :25:44.allowing her success rors to make a different decision in the ftture

:25:45. > :25:49.without having to come back to the House? Well, clearly, all the points

:25:50. > :25:53.that colleagues make in this second reading debate will be carefully

:25:54. > :25:59.considered and I am sure debated again during the course of the

:26:00. > :26:02.committee stage. I do understand what my honourable friend - where he

:26:03. > :26:06.is - the direction of thinkhng on that. As I say, perhaps mord will be

:26:07. > :26:11.discussed during the committee stage.

:26:12. > :26:15.If I can just turn to the sdcond important change this bill will

:26:16. > :26:19.enable, and that is to future proof the small donations scheme to ensure

:26:20. > :26:22.charities which use more modern innovative ways to collect loney,

:26:23. > :26:25.such as through contactless donations will still be abld to

:26:26. > :26:29.benefit. The small donations scheme was never intended to cover other

:26:30. > :26:33.methods of donation, such as direct debit, online or text messages, for

:26:34. > :26:36.which well-established and well used processes for claiming Gift Aid

:26:37. > :26:43.exist. That remains the case. However, we

:26:44. > :26:50.do recognise that cash transactions are declining as new innovative

:26:51. > :26:55.payment technologies become more prevalent. We believe we should keep

:26:56. > :26:58.pace. Contactless donations collected using dedicated charity

:26:59. > :27:02.collection terminals share lany of the same practical issues as bucket

:27:03. > :27:05.collections. Transactions are instant, and there is littld

:27:06. > :27:08.opportunity for fundraisers to engage with donors to get a Gift Aid

:27:09. > :27:13.declaration. This bill will therefore extend the

:27:14. > :27:14.scheme so that donations made using contactless technology will be

:27:15. > :27:29.eligible for top-up payments. I welcome the government taking the

:27:30. > :27:32.decision. I am glad they have got here perhaps a few years later than

:27:33. > :27:37.they could. But is it reallx fair to end up with a different tre`tment if

:27:38. > :27:42.I swipe my phone at some terminal rather than if I hadn't detdct a

:27:43. > :27:45.number on my screen? I sensdd I am not perhaps willing to give my

:27:46. > :27:50.address details through my lobile phone provider in that situ`tion.

:27:51. > :27:58.Could we not be more generots and allow text donations in that

:27:59. > :28:04.situation? Text messages can be Gift Aid, so I don't think we anticipate

:28:05. > :28:06.problems in that regard, but I know the Minister for civil socidty will

:28:07. > :28:12.be looking to respond more fully on these points at the end of the

:28:13. > :28:17.debate. The third change, the last change in this bill is to stpervise

:28:18. > :28:19.the rules around the top ups that charities can receive under the

:28:20. > :28:24.nations they get in their community buildings. These rules were designed

:28:25. > :28:28.to ensure fairness and parity of treatment for charities strtctured

:28:29. > :28:31.in different ways without these rules, some of them would bd

:28:32. > :28:35.entitled to hundreds of thotsands of pounds others simply becausd of

:28:36. > :28:38.differences in their historhcal structures. We know the Gift Aid

:28:39. > :28:43.Small Donations Scheme is particularly well used by local

:28:44. > :28:47.churches, and this was made clear by the archbishops council who recently

:28:48. > :28:51.noted that in 2014, parishes were able to claim record levels of Gift

:28:52. > :28:56.Aid with a significant part of this increase arising from the use of the

:28:57. > :28:59.Gift Aid Small Donations Scheme We want judges to continue to benefit

:29:00. > :29:03.from a valuable extra incomd provided by the Small Donathons

:29:04. > :29:07.Scheme, however it is important the scheme continues to deliver the

:29:08. > :29:11.policy intention of providing fair and equal outcomes regardless of

:29:12. > :29:14.structure. This bill will therefore address an anomaly in the original

:29:15. > :29:22.legislation which allows sole charities... Of course. While I am

:29:23. > :29:27.supported -- supportive of the bill, does the Minister recognise the

:29:28. > :29:31.majority of charities, crithcally in my own constituency, are sm`ll and

:29:32. > :29:36.rely solely on volunteers? We are seeing a reduction and volunteer

:29:37. > :29:41.numbers across the UK. For lany of them, the bill actually does not go

:29:42. > :29:47.far enough in promoting equ`l access to fundraising opportunities to

:29:48. > :29:52.those who do not rely on st`ff. Again, I think perhaps that is

:29:53. > :29:57.something that will -- we whll be able to look at in a bit more detail

:29:58. > :30:01.in committee. But I think these are importance of the vacations and I

:30:02. > :30:07.accept, it has to be said throughout the consultation, we have h`d very

:30:08. > :30:11.supportive comments from ch`rities, as the House heard from the quote I

:30:12. > :30:20.gave. But there are always additional husks and I think that we

:30:21. > :30:26.would all want to be able -, open to ideas in the future. -- addhtional

:30:27. > :30:32.asks. There are imported next steps in tonnes of making it easidr for

:30:33. > :30:36.charities of all sizes... Of course. I think there was a lot of lerit in

:30:37. > :30:41.the bill she is bringing forward to reach out to ensure that sm`ller

:30:42. > :30:45.charities benefit from the potential of this scheme. But would she also

:30:46. > :30:49.recognise that one of the challenges we face is that many of those

:30:50. > :30:54.charities, many of the smaller charities, they do not even know the

:30:55. > :30:57.scheme exists and part of the challenge we face is communhcating

:30:58. > :31:02.properly them that the schele is now going to be a lot less complex, but

:31:03. > :31:05.also that they can benefit from it? I wonder what measures she hs going

:31:06. > :31:13.to put in place to ensure that happens. I have already mentioned

:31:14. > :31:18.the HMRC outreach work that goes on, which I will certainly be

:31:19. > :31:22.encouraging. But I think thdre are more promotional opportunithes being

:31:23. > :31:26.planned, and I know the Minhster is going to talk more about th`t at the

:31:27. > :31:30.end of the debate. It is a very fair point, we want to make it e`sier,

:31:31. > :31:35.but there are people who just do not know about this, who still perceived

:31:36. > :31:39.barriers, so everything we can do to challenge that is very welcome.

:31:40. > :31:43.Again, I think it would be good to hear reports from across thd House

:31:44. > :31:47.on how we can do that and wd are always listening to that. I am happy

:31:48. > :31:51.to put those HMRC, as I know my ministerial colleague would be happy

:31:52. > :31:55.to consider it in his department as well. Let me clarify the anomaly and

:31:56. > :32:00.how we are addressing that. The anomaly in the original leghslation,

:32:01. > :32:04.allowing some charities to claim more than others based on solely how

:32:05. > :32:07.the structure. The government welcomes the constructive approach

:32:08. > :32:10.adopted by the Church of England, the Roman Catholic Church and other

:32:11. > :32:14.religious groups during the recent consultation with regard to this

:32:15. > :32:21.change. The bill will also relax the rules considering, so considerably

:32:22. > :32:25.above were charities can receive donations, which are still dligible

:32:26. > :32:28.for the Small Donations Schdme. Currently this so-called colmunity

:32:29. > :32:32.buildings will of the schemd mean that charities can only clahm top-up

:32:33. > :32:35.payments under nations recehved during charitable activities taking

:32:36. > :32:38.place within the community building. But we know that many local

:32:39. > :32:41.charities although based in community buildings carry ott most

:32:42. > :32:48.of their activities out in the local community. Which means they are

:32:49. > :32:51.unable to benefit fully frol the Small Donations Scheme. So this bill

:32:52. > :32:55.will therefore relax the rules to allow charities based in colmunity

:32:56. > :32:59.buildings to claim top-up p`yments under nations received outshde that

:33:00. > :33:03.building that within the local community area. I know colldagues

:33:04. > :33:07.will be delighted to know that amongst the many small local civil

:33:08. > :33:12.society groups, groups like the Scouts and guides, the air `nd Sea

:33:13. > :33:14.Cadets and other local uniformed groups in particular will bdnefit

:33:15. > :33:18.significantly from this change and be able to receive the support they

:33:19. > :33:27.deserve for their vital work in our community. So, Mr Speaker, Lr Deputy

:33:28. > :33:30.Speaker, this package of reforms has the potential to provide a real

:33:31. > :33:35.boost to many charities, particularly the up to 9000 new

:33:36. > :33:39.charities that apply for recognition by HMRC each year. Based on the

:33:40. > :33:43.provisional estimates these changes are expected to benefit charities by

:33:44. > :33:47.?50 million a year, a significant interest which underlines the

:33:48. > :33:50.Government's commitment to supporting a greater number of

:33:51. > :33:54.charities and a greater number of donations. The final figures will be

:33:55. > :33:58.certified by the independent Office for Budget Responsibility as part of

:33:59. > :34:06.the Autumn Statement this ydar. If I can turn briefly to the tax free

:34:07. > :34:09.childcare aspects of this bhll. I have talked so far about thd changes

:34:10. > :34:14.at they would further support our charities. These elements whll help

:34:15. > :34:20.us to make sure that for hard-pressed parents, it is easier

:34:21. > :34:23.to receive the support they need. In the last Parliament we legislated

:34:24. > :34:28.and introduced tax-free childcare. This will provide up to ?2000 of

:34:29. > :34:35.duck-mac support the childc`re costs per child per year. -- Government.

:34:36. > :34:40.The idea is they can apply simply an online to open an account for each

:34:41. > :34:45.child. For every ?8 a parent pays in, we will pay in an addithonal ?2.

:34:46. > :34:49.This system will be trialled this year and rolled out to parents from

:34:50. > :34:53.next year. During power user testing of the system, we found a couple of

:34:54. > :34:56.minor technical issues we nded to resort to make this a

:34:57. > :35:00.straightforward as possible for parents to use. This bill m`kes a

:35:01. > :35:04.couple of minor technical alendments to make sure the scheme operates as

:35:05. > :35:08.intended. The first change relates to the duty of parents to confirm

:35:09. > :35:11.they remain eligible to recdive tax-free childcare each quarter

:35:12. > :35:15.This bill will allow greater flexibility over when parents are

:35:16. > :35:19.asked to make this confirmation so it will mean parents can confirm

:35:20. > :35:23.eligibility once per quarter for all children have the same time rather

:35:24. > :35:26.than having to do it separately for each their children if they have

:35:27. > :35:30.registered them at different times. The second change will mean that

:35:31. > :35:34.parents will have a standard online form they can use if they w`nt to

:35:35. > :35:38.query a decision. That makes the process a lot more straightforward

:35:39. > :35:42.and convenience. We still w`nt to make sure everyone is able to ask

:35:43. > :35:45.for a review so if there is anyone who has struggled to get online

:35:46. > :35:53.they will still be able to raise their queries in other ways. I think

:35:54. > :36:00.the Minister for giving way. Can she confirm that what she has s`id is

:36:01. > :36:06.that the credit be availabld for each child, that it will not be

:36:07. > :36:16.subject to a two child limit, as is proposed for working family tax

:36:17. > :36:19.credits, and can she compard the regime of what will be the case for

:36:20. > :36:24.working families with actress? I think I might at a comeback to him

:36:25. > :36:29.on the latter point because it is not really in the scope of this

:36:30. > :36:33.bill. I can confirm that two changes we propose, everything else is

:36:34. > :36:36.unchanged from the original legislation. It is only these two

:36:37. > :36:43.changes. We are not proposing any other changes in the remit of this

:36:44. > :36:46.bill. As I said, the changes made through this bill are relathvely

:36:47. > :36:51.minor technical changes but they are important. Whether it is making it

:36:52. > :36:54.easier for more charities to claim extra funding to support thd

:36:55. > :36:59.fantastic work they do up and down the land in our constituenches,

:37:00. > :37:03.whether it is making sure that hard-working parents can access

:37:04. > :37:10.tax-free childcare when it hs introduced in the simplest way

:37:11. > :37:16.possible. The bill delivers against both of these objectives and are

:37:17. > :37:22.therefore commend it to the House. The question is that the Botlby read

:37:23. > :37:27.a second time. -- the bill. It is a pleasure to debate was at the

:37:28. > :37:32.Minister today, as always. This bill per Malee makes changes to the Gift

:37:33. > :37:37.Aid Small Donations Scheme `nd some technical changes to the tax-free

:37:38. > :37:41.childcare scheme. The opposhtion is broadly supportive of the specific

:37:42. > :37:48.measures contained in this bill however, we have a few concdrns The

:37:49. > :37:52.Gift Aid Small Donations Scheme was established, as many are probably

:37:53. > :37:58.aware, in 2012, with cross-party support, and the idea behind it was

:37:59. > :38:02.that in situations where it is impractical to get a Gift Ahd

:38:03. > :38:07.declaration in the usual wax, like collection boxes or church plates, a

:38:08. > :38:12.charity can claim a Gift Aid style top-up payment from the Govdrnment.

:38:13. > :38:20.A charity can claim 25% on cash donations of ?20 or less up to a

:38:21. > :38:26.yearly total which is now at ?8 000. Since April 2016, a charity can

:38:27. > :38:33.claim ?2000 in a tax year from the Government under the scheme. But

:38:34. > :38:39.this is subject to a number of qualifiers. The small charitable

:38:40. > :38:43.donations and childcare paylents Bill removes a number of thdse

:38:44. > :38:48.qualifying rules in order to make it easier for those smaller ch`rities

:38:49. > :38:52.to access the scheme. I will briefly run through these changes, `s the

:38:53. > :38:57.Minister has already given ` fantastic overview. The schdme

:38:58. > :39:04.currently includes a requirdment to have been registered as a charity

:39:05. > :39:08.for at least two full tax ydars The charity must also have made a

:39:09. > :39:12.successful Gift Aid claim in at least two out of the previots four

:39:13. > :39:22.tax years with no more than two years of gap between claims. Clause

:39:23. > :39:28.one removes these two rules entirely and makes consequential amendments

:39:29. > :39:34.to the 2012 Small Charitabld Donations Act and the secretary

:39:35. > :39:39.legislation. -- secondary. Clause to amend the definition of a slall

:39:40. > :39:44.payment to include donations by contactless payments. Clausds three

:39:45. > :39:50.and four wide in the communhty buildings rules. Clause thrde will

:39:51. > :39:55.essentially allow a charity to claim ?8,000 from small donations raised

:39:56. > :39:59.anywhere, or up to ?8,000 from donations collected from each

:40:00. > :40:04.community building it happens. In the latter case, donations would

:40:05. > :40:09.include those made in person in the local authority area in which the

:40:10. > :40:15.community building is situated. Clause four would make a series of

:40:16. > :40:19.amendments to the rules for connected charities making claims

:40:20. > :40:25.are one or more of the charhties run charitable activities in a community

:40:26. > :40:30.building. A group of charithes would then be entitled to make a claim of

:40:31. > :40:37.up to ?8,000 in small donathons made in the local authority area in which

:40:38. > :40:40.each community building is located. Alternatively, it would be `ble to

:40:41. > :40:48.make a claim of up to ?8,000 in small donations made anywhere in the

:40:49. > :40:52.UK will stop -- the UK. When the scheme was initially and fermented,

:40:53. > :40:56.Labour was generally supportive of the initiative, has the Minhster is

:40:57. > :41:01.aware, but we raised concerns at the time that the scheme was quhte

:41:02. > :41:05.complex and would potentially create barriers for small charities that

:41:06. > :41:09.could be eligible to claim the top-up payment. The opposithon

:41:10. > :41:12.spokesperson at the time sahd the bill will make a difference to

:41:13. > :41:18.charities and perhaps changds will be made after the three-year review.

:41:19. > :41:23.The complexity has since bedn confirmed by the charities secretary

:41:24. > :41:27.in practice and I am pleased that in this bill and in the consultation,

:41:28. > :41:32.the Government has acknowledged there is a problem. However, I am

:41:33. > :41:35.aware that the charities sector has expressed disappointment th`t the

:41:36. > :41:40.Government did not go furthdr, and we have had a little bit of this

:41:41. > :41:50.being reflected in the contributions made so far.

:41:51. > :41:56.In particular, some charitids have been calling for changes to the

:41:57. > :42:00.matching requirement. Now the matching requirement stipul`tes that

:42:01. > :42:05.to make a claim under the slall donations scheme the charitx also

:42:06. > :42:10.needs to receive Gift Aid donations in the same tax year. The total of

:42:11. > :42:14.eligible donations in which the charity can claim a top-up payment

:42:15. > :42:20.is restricted to an amount dqual to ten times the amount of the net

:42:21. > :42:25.donations on which Gift Aid is claimed for that year. Now charity

:42:26. > :42:30.organisations have made representations that changing this

:42:31. > :42:33.matching requirement would remove a significant parrier for small

:42:34. > :42:37.charities in particular. Indeed a survey carried out by the n`tional

:42:38. > :42:43.council for voluntary organhsations found that 50% of respondents with

:42:44. > :42:48.an income under ?10,000 wanted the matching requirement to be dither

:42:49. > :42:51.removed or reduced. So perh`ps the Minister could take this opportunity

:42:52. > :42:57.to explain in summing up more detail as to why the Government has not

:42:58. > :43:03.addressed the charities sector' main concern with regard to the latching

:43:04. > :43:06.requirement. Of course, when discussing the eligiblity criteria

:43:07. > :43:10.for any kind of Government grant the issue of fraud must also be taken

:43:11. > :43:15.into consideration. Now the opposition does have a numbdr of

:43:16. > :43:20.concerns about how loosening the he will jiblt criteria could ilpact

:43:21. > :43:25.this risk. It is widely known that some charities have been abtsed in

:43:26. > :43:30.the past and used as a vehicle to avoid tax and indeed to launder

:43:31. > :43:33.money. In the 60s and 70s, hn particular, there were a nulber of

:43:34. > :43:39.high profile cases involving large companies such as the metal box and

:43:40. > :43:43.imperial tobacco who used stpposed charities to provide educathon for

:43:44. > :43:47.the children of the UK but `ctually used the money sole le to p`y for

:43:48. > :43:52.the school fees of their directors' children. Now that might sedm like a

:43:53. > :43:55.long time ago but the point I am trying to make is there is `lways

:43:56. > :44:00.scope for abuse in these type of science and I hope the Government is

:44:01. > :44:06.looking carefully at any potential loopholes. We must thereford make

:44:07. > :44:10.sure that any loosening of the rules for access to Government gr`nts or

:44:11. > :44:15.tax relief doesn't provide ` further incentive for all continue ` small

:44:16. > :44:22.minority of tax avoiders to set up a charity. Now turning brieflx to the

:44:23. > :44:27.element ofs the bill relating to tax-free child care, clause five

:44:28. > :44:31.would make three minor technical amendments to the tax-free child

:44:32. > :44:35.care scheme, as the notes to the bill explain, under the tax free

:44:36. > :44:39.child care scheme parents whll receive top-up payments quarterly

:44:40. > :44:43.and will have to reconfirm `t the end of each quarter they sthll meet

:44:44. > :44:56.the eligiblity criteria. Clause five changes this to two

:44:57. > :44:58.months and this simply amrat Lous for alignment of periods for

:44:59. > :45:04.additional children. The other minor change is to the way applic`tions

:45:05. > :45:09.for a review of a decision by HMRC can be made. This bill will allow

:45:10. > :45:14.secondary legislation to be made to enable these applications to be made

:45:15. > :45:18.digitally. Whilst I appreci`te that this bill only makes minor changes

:45:19. > :45:23.to the tax free tax child scheme, I believe it is within scope of a

:45:24. > :45:27.second reading debate to discuss the wider policy background as ht were.

:45:28. > :45:32.As the Minister will be all too aware the opposition has sole

:45:33. > :45:36.concerns around tax-free chhld care itself, in particular, the hssue is

:45:37. > :45:42.that the policy is hugely regressive. For instance, the saving

:45:43. > :45:45.is capped at ?2,000 per child as an additional 20p from Governmdnt on

:45:46. > :45:50.top of every 80p spent by the parent. To get the maximum benefit

:45:51. > :45:55.you would already need to bd spending ?10,000 a year on child

:45:56. > :45:58.care. This isn't an option for many working families and therefore it's

:45:59. > :46:02.not the most efficient way of providing Government support to

:46:03. > :46:06.cover the cost of child card. Certainly families do need help with

:46:07. > :46:11.child care costs which have soared in the last six years of Tory

:46:12. > :46:17.Government with parents now spending ?1600 more each year than they did

:46:18. > :46:22.in 2010 according to Labour Party analysis. According to new data from

:46:23. > :46:28.freedom of information requdsts some local area costs have risen by more

:46:29. > :46:32.than 200%. So this is why L`bour has in fact established a child care tax

:46:33. > :46:38.force led by the Shadow Secretary of State for Education to bring forward

:46:39. > :46:41.proposals for a comprehensive system of universal affordable and good

:46:42. > :46:46.quality child care. Yes, I will give way. I thank the honourable lady for

:46:47. > :46:51.giving way. Often we hear the House of Commons library quoted btt rarely

:46:52. > :46:55.do we hear the words Labour Party research, in order for us to look at

:46:56. > :47:02.those figures in a little bht more detail, would she be prepardd to put