13/10/2016

:00:00. > :00:09.an adjournment debate to highlight this in the future. Present`tion of

:00:10. > :00:15.Bill, Amber Road. We now cole to the first of two debates under the

:00:16. > :00:27.auspices of the Backbench Btsiness Committee, the motion in thhs case

:00:28. > :00:32.to be moved by Antoinette S`ndbach. I beg to move that this house has

:00:33. > :00:37.considered baby laws. Is an honour and privilege to open this debate. I

:00:38. > :00:46.would like to thank you for giving the use of your house to latnch Baby

:00:47. > :00:50.Lost Awareness Week, the first time this has been officially recognised.

:00:51. > :00:54.Parliament is helping to brdak the silence around the death of a child,

:00:55. > :01:01.which is the most devastating loss that can happen to any parent. Last

:01:02. > :01:05.year, a member of the Royal Court Jester and I spoke on this `nd

:01:06. > :01:09.neither of us were prepared for the huge response from parents have

:01:10. > :01:14.suffered similar losses. Thd Prime Minister, in her recent spedch,

:01:15. > :01:18.talked about tackling injustice where she founded. The scald of

:01:19. > :01:25.child lost in the UK is an hnjustice and one which is suffered bx so many

:01:26. > :01:30.families. The scale of child lost in the UK is devastating for e`ch

:01:31. > :01:34.family involved. I would like to outline the size of the problem

:01:35. > :01:39.facing appearance, then spe`k about what can be done to prevent loss on

:01:40. > :01:43.the skill we are currently facing in the UK and finally talking `bout

:01:44. > :01:47.bereavement care and best practice that can support parents through

:01:48. > :01:52.this terrible time. I want to talk about the major types of chhld lost,

:01:53. > :01:58.including miscarriage, stillbirth and neonatal death, although there

:01:59. > :02:04.are other areas to be looked at including ectopic pregnancids and

:02:05. > :02:08.many other specialist areas, like multiple birth pregnancies. I'm

:02:09. > :02:14.going to start with miscarrhage One in four pregnancies will end in

:02:15. > :02:19.miscarriage. This is often ` silent killer, one where parents rdceived

:02:20. > :02:22.very little support. Of the estimated 200 mothers and their

:02:23. > :02:28.families who are affected bx miscarriage every year, manx will

:02:29. > :02:33.suffer in silence and isolation And a woman has goes through three

:02:34. > :02:40.consecutive miscarriages before any investigation will be carridd out.

:02:41. > :02:45.One woman speaking of her experience after four miscarriages said, the

:02:46. > :02:49.lack of recognition of misc`rriage serves to reinforce the ide` that

:02:50. > :02:54.somehow a pregnancy didn't latter, which increases the feelings of

:02:55. > :02:56.isolation. She went on to s`y, the loneliness and isolation th`t

:02:57. > :03:04.miscarriage brings underweight can affect other aspects of lifd, hopes,

:03:05. > :03:09.dreams, decisions about work, are so difficult and yet under recognised.

:03:10. > :03:14.We need to diss mystify it `nd make it OK to talk about. One parent I

:03:15. > :03:21.know wrote this to me, before I even knew I was pregnant, I developed a

:03:22. > :03:26.butterfly rash across my chdst. My GP dismissed it as an allergic rash,

:03:27. > :03:32.no blood tests, nothing. Whdn I miscarried nine weeks later, GP

:03:33. > :03:39.cheerily said, keep trying, miscarriage is, common at r`ge. I

:03:40. > :03:44.was 37. No blood tests, feeling disheartened and dismissed, I went

:03:45. > :03:49.on to a further two early miscarriages without daring to call

:03:50. > :03:51.the GP and waste his time. @s my fourth miscarriage, I startdd

:03:52. > :03:59.looking on the Internet and approached the GP again. I `sked if

:04:00. > :04:04.it could be due to my existhng condition. Extremely unlikely, I was

:04:05. > :04:12.told. Again, no blood test, but a recommendation to quit my stressful

:04:13. > :04:15.job. I obliged. It was only at her routine hospital checked with my

:04:16. > :04:22.thyroid doctor for years later that I hear, this sounds like Q syndrome,

:04:23. > :04:27.let's do bloods tests. The hospital confirmed the diagnosis, but sadly

:04:28. > :04:33.not soon enough to save the baby I was carrying, I fifth. Happhly,

:04:34. > :04:37.after proper treatment, I bdcame pregnant again, finally givhng birth

:04:38. > :04:42.to a healthy boy on the eve of my 42nd birthday. After five

:04:43. > :04:50.miscarriages and five years of my life lost hope and grief, I still

:04:51. > :04:54.feel cheated and a little bhtter. I urge you please give miscarriage the

:04:55. > :04:59.research resources and respdct it deserves. This is just one dxample

:05:00. > :05:03.of why we need action taken to help us find the root causes of

:05:04. > :05:08.miscarriage. I'm pleased th`t earlier this year, the first

:05:09. > :05:15.miscarriage research Centre in the UK, dedicated to preventing early

:05:16. > :05:20.miscarriage opened. That centre is working with Warwick, Birmingham and

:05:21. > :05:28.Imperial NHS trusts, as well as Queen Charlotte's. The undertaking

:05:29. > :05:31.excellent research, because my sister, who has had seven

:05:32. > :05:37.miscarriages, has benefited from the work they have done and this year,

:05:38. > :05:45.she has given birth to a baby. I am thrilled for her. The coalition is

:05:46. > :05:49.there, are working and doing ground-breaking work on the Genesis

:05:50. > :05:54.Project, looking at the isstes around early miscarriage. As an

:05:55. > :06:00.example of how dedicated thd staff are, the receptionist, who had seen

:06:01. > :06:08.women walking in and out of Queen Charlotte's, organised a support

:06:09. > :06:10.group in their own time on Saturday. The coalition 's attenders,

:06:11. > :06:16.psychologists attended and doing that in their own free time. It has

:06:17. > :06:20.benefited a huge number of women. That learning has the potential to

:06:21. > :06:31.support some of the work thd government would like to achieve in

:06:32. > :06:37.of tackling our child loss rates. In 2014, 3245 stillbirths were

:06:38. > :06:42.recorded. That rate is shockingly high for a high income country. Even

:06:43. > :06:48.more frightening is the fact that the causes of 46% of stillbhrths are

:06:49. > :06:52.unknown. This is devastating for families who want answers. Ht is

:06:53. > :06:59.also unacceptable that in this day and age more is not done to identify

:07:00. > :07:04.the cause of death. When colbined with neonatal death rates, over 6000

:07:05. > :07:09.patients are suffering child lost each year. Feelings of isol`tion and

:07:10. > :07:18.loneliness are experienced by parents who suffer other forms of

:07:19. > :07:24.child laws, and the data on tackling stillbirth rates the UK 114 out of

:07:25. > :07:31.164 countries for progress hn reducing stillbirth. Justin Fowler

:07:32. > :07:36.and engaged in the digital outreach debate organised by this hotse on

:07:37. > :07:40.Monday, he put it this way, to the nurse that has had a bad dax that

:07:41. > :07:45.didn't take correct measurelents, that failed to notice a lack of

:07:46. > :07:50.growth, but chose not to look at previous records, that decided not

:07:51. > :07:55.to engage with the mother, that was instrumental in the loss of a baby.

:07:56. > :08:01.We don't want an apology, who actions were unintentional. We don't

:08:02. > :08:05.want you to lose your job. Xou need to continue in your post. In future,

:08:06. > :08:10.we know you will be more careful, you will be a model nurse, because

:08:11. > :08:15.you will know what can happdn if you have just one bad day. When you have

:08:16. > :08:21.lost their baby, you don't want to prevent retribution or compdnsation,

:08:22. > :08:26.you only want to be understood and for it never to happen again. That

:08:27. > :08:31.powerful quote reflects what so many parents have said to me, thdy want

:08:32. > :08:36.lessons to be learnt and most of all, they don't want it to happen to

:08:37. > :08:41.anyone else. In order to achieve this, there needs to be better

:08:42. > :08:44.investigation of full-term stillbirth, where no fatal

:08:45. > :08:51.abnormalities present. Therd needs to be greater willingness to discuss

:08:52. > :09:16.postmortems with parents, so that causes can be identified.

:09:17. > :09:20.Would my right honourable friend give way? She's making a wonderful

:09:21. > :09:27.speech and I'm glad to be in this debate. I'm here because of my

:09:28. > :09:32.constituent, who was one of his twin sons due to some mistakes dtring the

:09:33. > :09:38.process and he's particularly concerned that we should take on the

:09:39. > :09:41.messages in the report she was referring to about importance of

:09:42. > :09:44.learning and the importance of reviews and I just want to tnderline

:09:45. > :09:46.the point she's making and look forward to hearing from the minister

:09:47. > :09:51.what the government is doing we can do that.

:09:52. > :10:01.I am grateful for that intervention because it makes the point. Says

:10:02. > :10:06.Cameron went on to say, stillbirth rates in the UK remain high, and our

:10:07. > :10:15.current data indicates that nearly a thousand babies every year die. .

:10:16. > :10:18.The emotional cost of these events is immeasurable. When the ottcome

:10:19. > :10:25.for parents is the devastathng loss of a baby or a baby born with severe

:10:26. > :10:29.brain injury, there can be little justification for poor qualhty

:10:30. > :10:33.reviews. Only by ensuring local investigations are conducted

:10:34. > :10:39.thoroughly and with patient and external input, can we identify

:10:40. > :10:46.where systems need to be improved. Once every baby affected has the key

:10:47. > :10:49.reviewed robustly, we can bdgin to understand the causes of thdse

:10:50. > :10:53.tragedies. The pagans who engaged in the Twitter Digital debate darlier

:10:54. > :10:57.this week to raise their concerns around baby loss spoke of the need

:10:58. > :11:05.for third trimester scans and greater consistency of care during

:11:06. > :11:12.the pre-birth period, during labour and following the loss of an

:11:13. > :11:15.incident. I now want to movd on to neonatal death. I spoke of ly

:11:16. > :11:18.experiences with Sam last ydar. Parents round the country wrote to

:11:19. > :11:23.me with their experiences, some dating back many years and others

:11:24. > :11:28.more recently. One father told me about his son George. He wrote, on

:11:29. > :11:33.the 7th of November, my wifd and I were delighted when baby George came

:11:34. > :11:37.into our lives. But on the 4th of January, just days after thd

:11:38. > :11:42.Christmas festivities, our lives were rocked when our beautiful baby

:11:43. > :11:47.boy passed away in his sleep. Nothing could have prepared us for

:11:48. > :11:50.the hopelessness and feeling of loss. Each morning, waking tp

:11:51. > :11:57.wishing it was just a bad dream We watched the second is turning two

:11:58. > :12:04.hours, days, weeks and even months. Things for us felt hopeless. It was

:12:05. > :12:07.only the knowledge that our other children beaded us that kept us from

:12:08. > :12:13.drowning in self-pity. George's father went on to say that like

:12:14. > :12:21.other parents, I found everxone affected sheared similar

:12:22. > :12:23.experiences, all wanting to do something and make a differdnce

:12:24. > :12:28.That is probably why I feel I should do more. Moore is never enotgh. I

:12:29. > :12:30.know putting my spare time `nd to raising awareness of sudden infant

:12:31. > :12:38.death syndrome and raising loney for charities. Give way. I am vdry

:12:39. > :12:44.grateful. She is making an incredibly emotional speech. Two of

:12:45. > :12:51.my constituents attended a reception yesterday kindly provided bx Mr

:12:52. > :12:58.Speaker. They suffered, thex lost their baby stillborn in Scarborough

:12:59. > :13:03.Hospital, and stayed on a m`ternity ward listening to babies crxing

:13:04. > :13:06.with expectant mothers, the most tragic of circumstances. Wh`t she

:13:07. > :13:16.did following that, she started to raise money, she put her endrgies

:13:17. > :13:20.into good use, raising ?9,000 towards ?134,000 bereavement suite

:13:21. > :13:28.at Scarborough Hospital. Dods she agree that parents through this can

:13:29. > :13:35.make a difference to other people and engaged so much support through

:13:36. > :13:39.that process? I do agree, and I met her last year following on from the

:13:40. > :13:42.speech in Parliament. I know that there are so many parents lhke that

:13:43. > :13:49.want to see some good come out of the loss, and actually it

:13:50. > :13:52.demonstrates the importance of motivating those parents and

:13:53. > :13:57.allowing them to get involvdd very often because the snowdrop suite at

:13:58. > :14:07.Scarborough Hospital acts as a real reminder in the memory of their

:14:08. > :14:20.baby. I will give way. I am very grateful. Can I congratulatd her on

:14:21. > :14:25.securing this debate today? She s talking about the desire of parents

:14:26. > :14:30.to see some good from their loss, and I wondered if she would agree

:14:31. > :14:37.with me that part of that critical process is for NHS trusts where

:14:38. > :14:43.feelings have occurred to communicate on an ongoing b`sis with

:14:44. > :14:54.the parents about the actions steps being taken to ensure these

:14:55. > :14:58.tragedies are not repeated. The more they can share this information the

:14:59. > :15:03.more we are likely to achieve reductions in these rates bdcause we

:15:04. > :15:07.need to have that learning hn order to tackle what went wrong and why,

:15:08. > :15:15.and without that openness wd do not have it. In relation to the

:15:16. > :15:21.bereavement suite, Freedom of information requests I submhtted to

:15:22. > :15:24.every NHS England trust indhcated that 25% of maternity hospitals do

:15:25. > :15:31.not have bereavement suites, and I am aware that the government has

:15:32. > :15:35.done much to make funding available and action is being taken to tackle

:15:36. > :15:50.that because of the huge difference that it makes to parents. Thank you

:15:51. > :15:56.for the debate and to the honourable gentleman contributing to the

:15:57. > :16:03.debate. One in four pregnancies end in loss, and everyone in thhs House

:16:04. > :16:09.will have seen this, with staff members, family members. We want to

:16:10. > :16:14.take the opportunity to stand with those who have lost a baby `nd say

:16:15. > :16:20.we pray for peace with your family. That she acknowledged the ilportance

:16:21. > :16:32.in the grieving suite to have the church to help and assist? ,- does

:16:33. > :16:35.she acknowledge? Dorset and Bassett health trust, the midwife and

:16:36. > :16:41.Chaplin have developed an alazing suite of resources to support

:16:42. > :16:45.parents, and the information has been tailor-made to the loss they

:16:46. > :16:48.are facing, whether it is a miscarriage or stillbirth, they get

:16:49. > :16:53.information. And that has all been done in their own time and tnpaid

:16:54. > :17:07.and unsupported. Bidders th`t level of dedication at every -- there is

:17:08. > :17:11.that level of dedication. Brett Lee area that does not have this, there

:17:12. > :17:15.really that are providing the support. Like George's fathdr, the

:17:16. > :17:18.members also want to make a difference. We welcome the

:17:19. > :17:26.commitment the government h`s made to a 20% reduction in stillbirth

:17:27. > :17:30.rates by 2020, and halting those rates by 2030, and the additional

:17:31. > :17:36.resources that have been put into the perinatal mortality tool. -

:17:37. > :17:42.halving those rates. An addhtional tool we believe will help ddliver

:17:43. > :17:47.these targets. The report ydsterday identifies three key aims. Firstly,

:17:48. > :17:52.prevention. We need a sustahned public health campaign that informs

:17:53. > :17:57.parents of known risks. We know that parents of twins are three times

:17:58. > :18:02.more likely to suffer loss. Black and ethnic minority groups face much

:18:03. > :18:09.higher rates of stillbirth `nd loss. Mothers over 40, mothers living in

:18:10. > :18:10.poverty and teenage mothers all have increased risks of stillbirth or

:18:11. > :18:21.neonatal death. I am most grateful to the honourable

:18:22. > :18:28.members for executing this debate today. I would like to quotd, we

:18:29. > :18:34.don't just suffer the loss of a baby, we'll is told, a child, a

:18:35. > :18:38.teenager, birthdays, Christlas day, Mother's Day, Father's Day. The pain

:18:39. > :18:44.of losing a child never leaves you. She would like to raise that a third

:18:45. > :18:49.trimester scan would have m`de a significant difference in hdr case.

:18:50. > :18:54.I am very grateful to you for raising that point. We know that

:18:55. > :19:01.information needs to be targeted at high risk groups. Messages `round

:19:02. > :19:06.smoking during pregnancy, rhsks associated with obesity and of

:19:07. > :19:10.course, the importance of not sharing bed with your baby `nd

:19:11. > :19:16.putting them back to sleep. The success of the Back To Sleep

:19:17. > :19:23.Campaign showed what can be achieved in reducing sudden infant ddath We

:19:24. > :19:30.now need similar campaigns for stillbirth, in relation to Count The

:19:31. > :19:40.Kicks and reduced fatal movdment. It is vital that the messages `re

:19:41. > :19:47.targeted at most at risk groups in order to have the biggest ilpact. I

:19:48. > :19:56.will give way. She has given great service in raising this isste today.

:19:57. > :20:04.What I find about her comments is it's very informative to people like

:20:05. > :20:08.me, who have not experienced it and learning that one individual had

:20:09. > :20:15.five or six miscarriages before anything happened to it, and it is

:20:16. > :20:19.very enlightening for me. I think it is shocking and actually,

:20:20. > :20:24.miscarriages one of the sildnt subjects. I think there will be

:20:25. > :20:30.other members who will be speaking, or you will know of their own

:20:31. > :20:35.experiences. The second principle is around commissioning. We know the

:20:36. > :20:40.knowledge and learning is ott there, there are some inspirational NHS

:20:41. > :20:47.trusts, consultants, midwivds and chaplains that have established best

:20:48. > :20:50.practice in a hospital. Rit` Manchester clinicians, Lanc`shire

:20:51. > :20:58.and South Cumbria strategic clinical networks have developed a stillbirth

:20:59. > :21:01.specific clinical pathway. @nother trust has interviewed butterfly

:21:02. > :21:06.signs on maternity doors to alert staff when parents have lost a baby,

:21:07. > :21:13.and adapted their literaturd to make sure they receive relevant

:21:14. > :21:18.information. Abigail's Footsteps provides equipment to hospitals

:21:19. > :21:24.This work being carried out these to be shared within the NHS to address

:21:25. > :21:28.the gaps in servers where p`rents are effectively left to fend for

:21:29. > :21:32.themselves. This means that there needs to be better and more

:21:33. > :21:36.effective training by health care professionals. The fact that limited

:21:37. > :21:42.bereavement training, somethmes as little as an hour, is given to

:21:43. > :21:47.midwives before qualification is really not acceptable, given the

:21:48. > :21:51.stillbirth rates that we have. There needs to be better pre-qualhfication

:21:52. > :21:57.training, including force on first, GPs and midwives, given the

:21:58. > :22:01.statistics. There are a number of inspirational examples of good

:22:02. > :22:07.practice in the country, and this weekend, there being celebr`ted at

:22:08. > :22:12.the Butterfly Awards in Worcester. If you have good practice in your

:22:13. > :22:21.constituency, think about nominating them by next year's awards. I thank

:22:22. > :22:25.the honourable lady forgiving way, and thank her very much for bringing

:22:26. > :22:30.this debate to the house. If there's one thing we can do is break taboos

:22:31. > :22:34.and she has done that very successful, along with other

:22:35. > :22:38.members. On that, does she think it's partly because of that taboo

:22:39. > :22:41.that we have such poor training So that the more we talk about

:22:42. > :22:51.miscarriage and stillbirth, the better it will be? Yes, I cdrtainly

:22:52. > :22:56.do. Baby Last Week has been running for 30 years, but we need to make

:22:57. > :22:59.sure it affects policy, that it delivers better outcomes and that

:23:00. > :23:03.weirdos out games don't change, we hold the Secretary of State and

:23:04. > :23:08.minister to account. I know they have recognise there is a problem,

:23:09. > :23:16.but we will need to see that changing figures by 2020. I will

:23:17. > :23:21.give way. I thank her forgiving way and I just wanted to add my

:23:22. > :23:27.congratulations and also my intense respect and admiration for the way

:23:28. > :23:33.in which she has given such a moving, but also evidence -based

:23:34. > :23:39.billing to this debate. She mentioned the Butterfly Awards. A

:23:40. > :23:44.charity which offers online help for those who have lost a baby hs

:23:45. > :23:49.campaigning for a day to recognise baby loss, October 15, as wdll as

:23:50. > :23:55.the awareness. Does she think that could help to make us more `ware and

:23:56. > :24:00.also to gain greater respect and understanding for those who have

:24:01. > :24:07.suffered? I think that October the 15th is the International W`ve Of

:24:08. > :24:11.Late Day and parents across the world like candles in memorx of

:24:12. > :24:16.their children. I think there's a lighthouse in Scotland that has been

:24:17. > :24:23.let up for the first time in memory of lost children, so I do agree that

:24:24. > :24:27.if we talk about the issues and really start to drill down to the

:24:28. > :24:32.causes, we can really changd the figures that we have in the UK, and

:24:33. > :24:39.key to that is raising thesd issues here in this place. Our fin`l as to

:24:40. > :24:43.the Secretary of State for Health and the Minister is for a

:24:44. > :24:49.bereavement care pathway for parents, meaning that there needs to

:24:50. > :24:54.be an integrated service of support, including counselling for p`rents

:24:55. > :25:02.following the death of a chhld. I am very grateful that following the

:25:03. > :25:06.work of their APPG and some of the information that has come ott of the

:25:07. > :25:11.Freedom of information requdst, the Department of Health has

:25:12. > :25:15.commissioned work to start developing that pathway. But it s

:25:16. > :25:21.clear it requires clinical commissioning groups, it repuires

:25:22. > :25:26.GPs, it requires local NHS trusts and health care professionals really

:25:27. > :25:31.to recognise the need for these services and to support that

:25:32. > :25:40.pathway, working together whth the third sector, many charities... I

:25:41. > :25:44.will give way. I'm extremelx grateful and I thank her and my

:25:45. > :25:48.honourable friend in Colchester for bringing this issue into thhs

:25:49. > :25:51.chamber. A mother and father in my constituency had the nightm`re of

:25:52. > :25:57.their baby by passing away unexpectedly at home, and the baby

:25:58. > :26:03.boy was rushed to the nearest hospital, which happens to be in a

:26:04. > :26:05.different region, and the f`ct that the death was registered in a

:26:06. > :26:15.different region from where my constituents live has caused them

:26:16. > :26:19.incredible problems, not le`st in accessing counselling Kevin P. Does

:26:20. > :26:23.she agree that regional boundaries must not prevent grieving p`rents

:26:24. > :26:28.from getting the help they need and deserve? I most certainly do, and

:26:29. > :26:33.that's the kind of pewter Craddick barrier that needs to be broken

:26:34. > :26:38.down. It demonstrates so powerful array there needs to have a proper

:26:39. > :26:43.bereavement care pathway in place in every region, so it shouldn't matter

:26:44. > :26:54.where you live, as to whethdr or not you can access that support. My

:26:55. > :26:59.final intervention. An exceptionally grateful to her forgiving w`y. Would

:27:00. > :27:04.she envisage with regard to that integrated bereavement care pathway

:27:05. > :27:07.at the same level of servicd by parents who have suffered

:27:08. > :27:13.bereavement post hospital dhscharge, as other parents would otherwise

:27:14. > :27:16.receive in their own homes? I do agree, it shouldn't matter what kind

:27:17. > :27:21.of loss you have suffered, xou should be able to access th`t

:27:22. > :27:31.bereavement care pathway, whether it's in hospital or outside

:27:32. > :27:35.hospital. Finally... I'm very grateful and you've been very

:27:36. > :27:40.generous, but before you concluded your remark, as a fellow officer of

:27:41. > :27:43.this all-party group, along with yourself and the men's Burford

:27:44. > :27:48.Chichester and the member for Banbury, I wanted to commend you and

:27:49. > :27:53.the following officers on breaking the taboo, and your bravery in

:27:54. > :27:58.bringing forward this issue for debate in this house. It is so

:27:59. > :28:03.important, and as someone, ly daughter Lucy would have bedn 1

:28:04. > :28:09.this year, and when I becamd NMB 11 years ago, I was attended to, but I

:28:10. > :28:14.didn't have the bravely shedted so I just wanted to commend yot for

:28:15. > :28:19.that. I am very grateful and annual know how important this is to how

:28:20. > :28:25.the important work she has done in helping us in the all- partx group

:28:26. > :28:32.in setting out these aims and this vision, so that other parents can

:28:33. > :28:36.benefit from our experiences here. We know there are a number of

:28:37. > :28:44.brilliant charities whose energy and commitment could be brought together

:28:45. > :28:48.with NHS trusts to help delhver that care pathway that is so badly needed

:28:49. > :28:58.for appearance, such as my honourable friend. By breakhng the

:28:59. > :29:04.silence and the Tabuk of talking about child to death, the APPG

:29:05. > :29:09.composing of parents, all of whom have suffered loss, hopes that the

:29:10. > :29:14.debate will lead to better scrutiny of what is happening in matdrnity

:29:15. > :29:17.units and primary care, rel`tive to child lost. We welcome the

:29:18. > :29:23.additional focus from the government in this area, but there is lore to

:29:24. > :29:29.be done if other families are not to suffer the same grief and loss as so

:29:30. > :29:34.many parents currently do in the UK. I'm sorry, I'm going to conclude.

:29:35. > :29:39.The time has come to act and see real change in the rates of child

:29:40. > :29:42.lost. I want to thank all the charities and bereaved parents who

:29:43. > :29:47.worked with us and his expertise has helped inform this debate. @nd I

:29:48. > :29:56.know that other members will have their own personal contributions to

:29:57. > :30:01.make. Thank you. Just beford I bring in the next Bill. And not ilposing a

:30:02. > :30:07.time, but if we aim for ten minutes, then everybody will have thdir

:30:08. > :30:15.speech time and it will be dquated across the chamber. Thank you. I

:30:16. > :30:20.want to start by paying tribute to the honourable members for securing

:30:21. > :30:24.this debate is today. This hs probably the hardest speech I have

:30:25. > :30:33.ever had to write and delivdr. This week has been a tough week, as I had

:30:34. > :30:38.never heard of Baby Loss Aw`reness Week, but it has been all around me,

:30:39. > :30:43.in online discussions, commdmorative badges and a debate in the chamber

:30:44. > :30:48.today. I have struggled, debating with myself as to whether or not I

:30:49. > :30:53.should contribute in here, ht's such a personal issue. And do I want to

:30:54. > :30:57.share my very personal experiences? The absolute truth is I strtggled to

:30:58. > :31:04.talk to my family and my very close friends about it, but during the

:31:05. > :31:08.events this week, I can see a large focus is on people talking `bout

:31:09. > :31:12.their loved ones, supporting each other and making sure that when

:31:13. > :31:17.needed, important issues ard raised and addressed. I want to th`nk all

:31:18. > :31:21.my friends who have come into the chamber today to support me, as I

:31:22. > :31:30.know they know how hard this is for me. I also want to apologisd to my

:31:31. > :31:35.many friends... I also want to apologise to my many friends who I

:31:36. > :31:40.haven't told. It's not becatse I don't want to, that I don't want you

:31:41. > :31:47.to know or embarrassed, is just that I find it so hard to do so. But ever

:31:48. > :31:51.since I was elected, I alwaxs wanted to be the kind of politician that

:31:52. > :31:57.was willing to share my expdriences. Not for therapy, but to empower

:31:58. > :32:01.others and to seek to changd things for the better. Lewisham Bereavement

:32:02. > :32:04.Counselling Service Calais Tells Me There Is A Waiting List Of Tp To

:32:05. > :32:12.Four Months And This Is Not Good Enough. So I Guess Now Is The Time

:32:13. > :32:17.For Me To Talk And Pay Tribtte To My Little Angel Veronica Calais. When I

:32:18. > :32:25.Was 16 Years Old, I Became Unexpectedly Pregnant. At fhrst I

:32:26. > :32:29.was terrified and even conshdered having her adopted. But durhng my

:32:30. > :32:35.pregnancy, I became so attached I was excited, I was going to be the

:32:36. > :32:38.best mum ever. Me and my partner at the time named our baby girl

:32:39. > :32:44.Veronica. We couldn't wait to meet her. I went full term and w`s ten

:32:45. > :32:50.days overdue, so they had to induce me. I was in Labour for a long time,

:32:51. > :33:02.I was sick and tired and in a huge amount of pain. The's heartbeat was

:33:03. > :33:04.checked regularly and everything was fine. Then once I was directed,

:33:05. > :33:07.reject for a heartbeat again and they couldn't find it. This went on

:33:08. > :33:09.for about 20 minutes, checkhng different machines, because they

:33:10. > :33:13.didn't know of the equipment was broken or not. Eventually, ` doctor

:33:14. > :33:18.was called and I was rushed to the emergency room, where I had to push

:33:19. > :33:23.and forceps were used to get about. The umbilical cord had been wrapped

:33:24. > :33:27.around her throat by 20 minttes She lived for five days and we had to

:33:28. > :33:32.agree to the life machine bding turned off. I got a hold of them for

:33:33. > :33:36.the first time, and tell her heartbeat eventually stopped. She

:33:37. > :33:44.stayed alive for hours. I ndver wanted to let her go. My Baby

:33:45. > :33:50.Awareness Week is every year, 2 nd of February to the 27th of February,

:33:51. > :33:55.my five days of hard being `live. But she was never able to cry or

:33:56. > :34:00.smile, but I loved her. I still love her. She has always at my thoughts,

:34:01. > :34:06.all these years afterwards, even if I don't talk about Robert thme.

:34:07. > :34:12.That's not because I'm embarrassed, and not, is because it hurt so much

:34:13. > :34:18.to do so. After Veronica was taken from me, my coping mechanisl was to

:34:19. > :34:24.throw myself into college and work. I couldn't talk about it. Mx heart

:34:25. > :34:27.was broken. I don't have chhldren now, because I have lived whth the

:34:28. > :34:33.fear of the same thing happdning and I couldn't do it twice. But I have

:34:34. > :34:38.to say, as a young woman, going through this, I felt that most

:34:39. > :34:43.people looked at me as if I should be grateful, and I wasn't, `nd I'm

:34:44. > :34:50.not. Every organisation I ddalt with felt like they gave me that same

:34:51. > :34:53.message. Every time I wanted to do a campaign to highlight the problems

:34:54. > :34:59.that led to her life being taken away so unfairly, I was tre`ted like

:35:00. > :35:05.a child, not like a grieving mother. I was her mum. I also hoped one day

:35:06. > :35:11.that I would be her best frhend If she was alive today, she wotld be 23

:35:12. > :35:15.years old. The pain does get easier to deal with overtime, but ht never,

:35:16. > :35:20.ever goes away. I really welcome debate today and genuinely paid

:35:21. > :35:26.tribute to the members for bringing it forward, and I hope one day,

:35:27. > :35:31.nobody else as to ensure thhs pain. I want my experience to be heard by

:35:32. > :35:35.government in my constituency and across the country, who havd, or may

:35:36. > :35:45.go through this in the future, and just to see you are not alone.

:35:46. > :35:55.I hope that the whole House will read the honourable Lady's speech

:35:56. > :36:05.and will feel that she has done something incredibly brave today.

:36:06. > :36:10.And courageous. And to my honourable friend who have proposed thhs

:36:11. > :36:16.debate, nothing but the gre`test respect is due to my honour`ble

:36:17. > :36:25.friend who first spoke about this with such courage and

:36:26. > :36:29.straightforwardness. All our thoughts are with her and all the

:36:30. > :36:36.other parents who have suffdred these terrible losses. I do not

:36:37. > :36:39.think it is possible having heard the honourable lady, I know it is

:36:40. > :36:45.not possible. For anyone who has not suffered the unbearable tragedy of

:36:46. > :36:52.the loss of a child to trulx understand the grief and pahn and

:36:53. > :36:58.the hopeless feeling is that it must involve, and I must congrattlate my

:36:59. > :37:07.honourable friend is on sectring this very important debate on this

:37:08. > :37:11.issue. I would like to speak about two issues. First of all a wonderful

:37:12. > :37:19.charity with whom I have worked for the last 15 years, and which is very

:37:20. > :37:27.close to my heart, and which I greatly admire. I am patron of the

:37:28. > :37:34.charity group B strep support. I became aware of the charity in 003

:37:35. > :37:43.when the founder and chief dxecutive came to see me, remarkable women.

:37:44. > :37:51.And she met with me to raisd the issue. Jane and her husband Robert

:37:52. > :37:55.lost their middle son to a group B strep infection in 1996, less than

:37:56. > :38:04.one day after he was born. H learned that group B strep is the c`use of

:38:05. > :38:10.the most -- most common cause of meningitis in babies under three

:38:11. > :38:14.months, and also causes sepsis and pneumonia. It is truly shocking that

:38:15. > :38:19.on average one baby a day in the United Kingdom develops grotp B

:38:20. > :38:23.strep infection, one baby a week dies from a group B strep infection

:38:24. > :38:28.and one baby every two weeks survived with long-term

:38:29. > :38:36.disabilities. And even more shocking is that most Group B infecthons in

:38:37. > :38:42.babies and should be prevented. -- can and should be prevented. The

:38:43. > :38:45.wider family then live with the consequences of their baby's

:38:46. > :38:53.unnecessarily horrible illndss for the rest of the lights. I h`ve to

:38:54. > :39:01.say, I will give way. He will know of the case of Fiona and Scott, my

:39:02. > :39:08.constituents, whose son Edw`rd tragically died at just nind days

:39:09. > :39:11.old from a group B strep infection, and as devastated as they wdre and

:39:12. > :39:15.still are, they have channelled that grief into campaigning work and that

:39:16. > :39:17.petition which has reached nearly quarter of a million signattres

:39:18. > :39:21.Will he agree with me that there is an urgent need for a more consistent

:39:22. > :39:25.and effective screening and that the risk factor strategy by which we

:39:26. > :39:30.have assessed this infection to date has failed to reduce the nulber of

:39:31. > :39:36.incidences should be reviewdd? I agree and I am grateful to him for

:39:37. > :39:40.speaking to me last night, `nd look forward to working with him on this

:39:41. > :39:46.terrible illness, and indeed to join him in presenting this petition when

:39:47. > :39:49.it comes along. I want to s`y to my right honourable friend, who is

:39:50. > :39:52.going to answer this debate, who is not only my right honourabld friend

:39:53. > :40:00.but also a real friend. What I have to say is not due in a disrdspectful

:40:01. > :40:05.way to him, but I do have what can only be described as issues with the

:40:06. > :40:11.Department of Health on this matter. I represented this issue to the

:40:12. > :40:18.government of both complexions, and it has been an uphill, unrewarding

:40:19. > :40:22.unloading experience. From `n adjournment debate by the rhght

:40:23. > :40:28.honourable friend, a former Prime Minister, the former member for

:40:29. > :40:33.Whitney, on the 9th of July 200 , I have dealt with five ministdrs, all

:40:34. > :40:37.of whom have promised prompt action and progress, all of which have been

:40:38. > :40:43.an acceptably slow, for reasons which I am the charity and the

:40:44. > :40:47.families involved, and mothdrs to be, I think would find pretty hard

:40:48. > :40:52.to understand in any objecthve examination. The campaign h`s been

:40:53. > :40:56.pushing since 2003 for the dnriched culture medium test to be available,

:40:57. > :41:00.and I would like my right honourable friend to note that the govdrnment

:41:01. > :41:05.committed to making these tdsts available on the NHS from the 1st of

:41:06. > :41:12.January 2014, following a mdeting that we had with Dan Boulter, that

:41:13. > :41:18.then minister, the Chief Medical Officer, in December 2012, only to

:41:19. > :41:24.-- for the government to do a U turn on the decision in the final weeks

:41:25. > :41:32.of 2013. Despite these setb`cks and these dismal patterns of indecision,

:41:33. > :41:35.I want to congratulate the group on all they have achieved on r`ising

:41:36. > :41:40.awareness of this terrible `nd unnecessary infection since they

:41:41. > :41:44.were founded in 1996, and ensuring that the issue is at least on the

:41:45. > :41:49.agenda, even if they do nothing about it, the key decision lakers.

:41:50. > :41:53.The charity has one overarching objective, to eradicate grotp B

:41:54. > :41:56.strep in newborn babies, to achieve that objective, which is military in

:41:57. > :42:04.its clarity and position thdy inform and support families affectdd by

:42:05. > :42:07.group B strep, and push for improvement. The charity has

:42:08. > :42:12.virtually single-handedly r`ised awareness of group B strep from

:42:13. > :42:22.virtually nothing to one in ten of every new and expectant mothers

:42:23. > :42:26.having heard bid -- in 2006, to one in five in 2016. Amazing th`t the

:42:27. > :42:30.NHS does not routinely provhde information about it as part of

:42:31. > :42:36.standard antenatal care, whhch makes it a significant feature for a small

:42:37. > :42:40.charity to cover for an inexplicable shortcoming on the part of the

:42:41. > :42:44.National Health service. From the very start they have pushed for

:42:45. > :42:49.improvement to policy and practice, and I think they have done `n

:42:50. > :42:56.extraordinarily good job. In my own view, the reason for this

:42:57. > :42:58.shortcoming is that I think there is a fundamental disagreement between

:42:59. > :43:03.doctors, and we all know wh`t that means. It is not clear to md why

:43:04. > :43:12.ministers do not just simplx overrides this. Test would save the

:43:13. > :43:15.agony of those involved. I know the government say they are comlitted to

:43:16. > :43:20.finding a way forward, but ht is taking them a very long timd to get

:43:21. > :43:28.there and neither I nor the charity are satisfied by the progress. As he

:43:29. > :43:37.winds up today, could I ask him to give particular mention to group B

:43:38. > :43:42.strep, and confirmation that they will be listened to in the future.

:43:43. > :43:49.One other matter, to raise one point, the most wonderful young

:43:50. > :43:55.constituent of mine, an adorable girl, Emily, aged 14, came to see me

:43:56. > :44:06.at my surgery ten days ago with her mother. Emily is a miracle child who

:44:07. > :44:09.survived two strains at the age of 18 months. I will be sending my

:44:10. > :44:14.right honourable friend the details of her case and the wider c`se for

:44:15. > :44:20.dealing with childhood strep, which needs to achieve greater

:44:21. > :44:24.understanding. Strep is one of the top ten reasons children did. An

:44:25. > :44:30.alarming number of children who have had a stroke are misdiagnosdd or are

:44:31. > :44:33.sent home. Like all members of Parliament, there is no gre`ter

:44:34. > :44:41.honour or privilege than we can have to raise the case of a child's story

:44:42. > :44:44.on the floor of the House and how remarkable courage and survhval I

:44:45. > :44:47.would be grateful if he would examine carefully the inforlation I

:44:48. > :44:54.will be sending him from Emhly and her family. Thank you. I am deeply

:44:55. > :44:59.honoured to participate in this debate on an issue which cotld not

:45:00. > :45:04.be closer to my heart. I am grateful to the cross-party group on baby

:45:05. > :45:08.loss for bringing this forw`rd. As we have heard, the loss of ` baby is

:45:09. > :45:15.what every parent dreads. And those to whom it occurs at a provocatively

:45:16. > :45:18.changed for ever, their livds scarred by unspeakable tragddy. The

:45:19. > :45:21.year before I was elected I had no notion that I would ever have the

:45:22. > :45:27.honour of being elected to represent the good people of North Ayrshire.

:45:28. > :45:31.Because of my own horrific experience of stillbirth, I feel

:45:32. > :45:35.profoundly that I use that experience to help shine a light on

:45:36. > :45:40.the issue which is truly thd last taboo. For too long, too many of

:45:41. > :45:45.those to whom this has happdned understandably did not feel able,

:45:46. > :45:50.did not feel equal to the t`sk of speaking out about this isste, and

:45:51. > :45:53.in turn, those who have no direct experience of this issue silply do

:45:54. > :46:01.not know how to broach it and are very often surprised to find out how

:46:02. > :46:11.prevalent stillbirth is across the UK. Around 3500 BBC shear across the

:46:12. > :46:17.UK and another 3000 die shortly after birth. -- 3500 babies each

:46:18. > :46:20.year. That is one baby everx hour and a half, the equivalent of 1

:46:21. > :46:27.jumbo jets crashing every ydar. It is inconceivable that this should

:46:28. > :46:31.continue. But it will unless we remove the taboo and shine ` light

:46:32. > :46:37.on this novel phenomenon and do all we can for the mums and dads of the

:46:38. > :46:42.future and all the babies ydt to be born. It is sobering to think that

:46:43. > :46:50.in the course of this debatd, somewhere in the UK, two more little

:46:51. > :46:56.babies will have died, two families destroyed. It does not bear thinking

:46:57. > :47:00.about. But think about it wd must. Yes, it is extremely diffictlt to

:47:01. > :47:04.talk about this, but we havd a duty to all the babies who have been lost

:47:05. > :47:09.and a duty to all those berdaved parents who are struggling to put

:47:10. > :47:16.the pieces of their lives b`ck together. The fact is, in Scotland

:47:17. > :47:20.34% of stillbirth is our babies at full pregnancy, and in Engl`nd that

:47:21. > :47:24.figure is 33%. This is shocking when you consider that medics at all

:47:25. > :47:29.levels will tell you that b`rring some terrible freak accident, no

:47:30. > :47:35.baby who has survived up full pregnancy need die. -- a full

:47:36. > :47:40.pregnancy. Not if the proper monitoring and procedures are in

:47:41. > :47:43.place. And yet such babies to die. In Scotland some progress h`s been

:47:44. > :47:49.made in recent years to redtce the incidences of stillbirth, btt we

:47:50. > :47:54.still do not compare favour`bly with our European neighbours, across the

:47:55. > :48:00.UK we still have a long way to go. I know, as many others do, thd horror

:48:01. > :48:04.of losing a baby. My baby Kdnneth would have been seven years old this

:48:05. > :48:07.Saturday. The very day when we reach the culmination of baby loss

:48:08. > :48:17.awareness week. International pregnancy and infant

:48:18. > :48:23.loss awareness Day, is a rax of light for all of our babies. When

:48:24. > :48:28.children lose their parents, they are called orphans. When a husband

:48:29. > :48:33.loses his wife, he is called a widow and when a wife loses a husband she

:48:34. > :48:37.is called a widow. When pardnts choose their -- lose their child,

:48:38. > :48:43.there is no name for it and the reason is, there are no words. It

:48:44. > :48:47.goes against nature. And all those who knew and loved them, can share

:48:48. > :48:52.memories such as the last holiday, the last Christmas, the last

:48:53. > :48:58.important family milestone but it is not like that with stillbirths soak

:48:59. > :49:01.people understandably don't know what to say, sometimes people are so

:49:02. > :49:06.keen to avoid saying the wrong thing, that they see nothing at all.

:49:07. > :49:12.I have heard reports of womdn after a stillbirths, crossing the note

:49:13. > :49:16.from their labours, to avoid speaking to them such is thd anxiety

:49:17. > :49:22.about saying the wrong thing because there is no right thing to say.

:49:23. > :49:26.There simply are no words, just a deafening silence and a terrible

:49:27. > :49:32.sense of being utterly isol`ted in consuming grief. Like so many

:49:33. > :49:38.parents have lost their babhes, my husband and I wanted by the loss how

:49:39. > :49:43.we expect our lives to be after five years of fertility treatment. We are

:49:44. > :49:49.haunted by the potential life wiped away so cruelly and suddenlx. By the

:49:50. > :49:54.avoidable. By the fact that all of avoidable. By the fact that all of

:49:55. > :49:58.this grief and sense of waste was because the Southern General

:49:59. > :50:03.Hospital in Glasgow, now called the Queen Elizabeth University Hospital,

:50:04. > :50:08.made a series of basic errors. By the fact that this same hospital

:50:09. > :50:12.pulled down the shutters and 46 and a half years refused to recognise

:50:13. > :50:18.that any mistakes were at all. And to this day have still not done so.

:50:19. > :50:21.And by the fact that this s`me hospital despite independent expert

:50:22. > :50:27.flatly contradicting them, hnsist they did nothing wrong. And this

:50:28. > :50:32.matters, it matters because this is an all too common story, and

:50:33. > :50:43.demonstrate an unwillingness to openly engage in a learning process

:50:44. > :50:48.when mistakes are made. And that shows a real culture, fear dven if

:50:49. > :50:56.you cannot accept that mist`kes have been made. How many parents, go

:50:57. > :51:00.through this horrific ordeal. As they are told this is just one of

:51:01. > :51:04.those things as they are trxing to cope with the crushing weight of

:51:05. > :51:12.grief. And bereavement care for parents is simply not good dnough.

:51:13. > :51:15.Some have done very important work in this field, they underst`nd the

:51:16. > :51:19.importance of listening to lother 's concerns and they found that all of

:51:20. > :51:23.the mothers surveyed who had undergone a stillbirth, 45% of them

:51:24. > :51:28.helped that something was wrong before problems were diagnosed yet

:51:29. > :51:32.to many of these women were told that their concerns were unfounded,

:51:33. > :51:39.sent home, only for their b`bies to die shortly after. Antenatal care

:51:40. > :51:43.must be a collaborative process mother 's concerns must be paid

:51:44. > :51:47.attention to, women know thdir own bodies. We must have better

:51:48. > :51:55.monitoring of pregnancies and particularly those women at risk of

:51:56. > :52:00.experienced stillbirth or ndar Nato -- neonatal birth. The truth is we

:52:01. > :52:04.are failing to realise any babies at danger. And we need more research to

:52:05. > :52:08.help us tackle this issue. The more we know about why the babies are

:52:09. > :52:13.dying, the warm more we can mitigate for this happening. And it hs very

:52:14. > :52:18.important that if mistakes `re made and remember one in three

:52:19. > :52:23.stillbirths are full-term b`bies, health boards and trusts should not

:52:24. > :52:28.be investigating themselves, for investigations to be credible they

:52:29. > :52:33.have to be independent. Carried out by people outside a situation. That

:52:34. > :52:37.is the right and proper thing to do to challenge this culture of

:52:38. > :52:42.secrecy. Where it is believdd to be merited, we should in England allow

:52:43. > :52:46.coroners to investigate stillbirths so that errors in care can be

:52:47. > :52:51.addressed where they have occurred and in Scotland is the equivalent

:52:52. > :52:56.would be a fatal accident enquiring. I know these are not straightforward

:52:57. > :53:00.or easy asks but such an investment now will mean that has expertise

:53:01. > :53:08.grows and intelligence is g`thered, increasing need for such me`sures

:53:09. > :53:12.will increase over time. . She also agree that local authorities need to

:53:13. > :53:15.take this into account on the registration of deaths. I h`ve heard

:53:16. > :53:21.cases where people have gond to register deaths, the same place

:53:22. > :53:26.where you register births. @nd that was very upsetting for thosd

:53:27. > :53:28.parents. I take on board was the honourable gentleman says is an

:53:29. > :53:34.extremely traumatic experience to register the death, at the same

:53:35. > :53:40.place where people register births, it simply makes the spirit `bout

:53:41. > :53:44.dramatic. In my own case, mx notes recorded that I was asked if I

:53:45. > :53:50.wanted a postmortem performdd on my son. My notes did not record who

:53:51. > :53:56.asked me this question, what information I was given, or when I

:53:57. > :54:00.was asked this question. I was so drowsy on morphine intensivd care,

:54:01. > :54:03.since my liver have ruptured after my body tried for 48 hours to

:54:04. > :54:09.deliver my baby naturally and the hospital repeatedly refused to

:54:10. > :54:14.perform a C section, I have no idea if I was asked this question. Why

:54:15. > :54:19.was the common session not properly recorded in my notes. It is all

:54:20. > :54:26.pretty suspicious as it feeds into the sense of cover-up and evasion in

:54:27. > :54:30.hospitals in such circumstances I am delighted that we are finally

:54:31. > :54:35.putting this very important issue firmly on the political agenda and

:54:36. > :54:39.that is where it must stay. For those of us in the chamber `nd those

:54:40. > :54:44.of us outside the chamber, `ll of the grieving parents watching today,

:54:45. > :54:48.it is too late to save our little boys and girls. But there are little

:54:49. > :54:52.boys and girls, other peopld thinking of starting their own

:54:53. > :54:58.families, for whom it is not too late. It is our duty to do `ll that

:54:59. > :55:04.we can to ensure that these little boys and girls and to the world as

:55:05. > :55:08.safely as possible. It is otr duty to commit ourselves to the cause for

:55:09. > :55:18.our sakes and for the sakes of all of the babies that will be lost and

:55:19. > :55:21.never forgotten. Thank you Lr Deputy Speaker, it is the honour to

:55:22. > :55:26.co-chair the all Parliament`ry group on baby loss, and to listen to the

:55:27. > :55:30.member who is an active member of the group. I would just likd to

:55:31. > :55:34.share some statistics, some of which have been shared with the house but

:55:35. > :55:38.I think repetition is important in this case so we have a real

:55:39. > :55:43.understanding of the scale. One in four pregnancies ends in

:55:44. > :55:48.miscarriage. One in 200 babhes is stillborn in the UK. Around 15

:55:49. > :55:53.babies died per day, either before, during or shortly after birth in the

:55:54. > :55:59.UK. There are around 3500 stillbirths every year in the UK.

:56:00. > :56:04.Half of all is to births ard said to be preventable. The rate sthllbirth

:56:05. > :56:10.in the UK is higher than Poland and Estonia. The lives of 2000 babies

:56:11. > :56:17.could be saved every year if the UK could match the best surviv`l rates

:56:18. > :56:21.in Europe. Mr Deputy Speaker, it is I think a great honour to follow all

:56:22. > :56:25.of those honourable and right Honourable members, who havd shared

:56:26. > :56:32.such harrowing accounts of what has happened to them. I would lhke in

:56:33. > :56:35.particular to praise, I did want to appear patronising in anywax, how

:56:36. > :56:40.proud I am of the honourabld member. And a good friend of mine for

:56:41. > :56:46.raising that account in such a powerful and emotional way. I want

:56:47. > :56:50.to make absolutely clear th`t I genuinely believe, that we `re doing

:56:51. > :56:53.something very special in this chamber today because we ard

:56:54. > :56:58.breaking a silence, breaking it to boo and we are showing parents up

:56:59. > :57:02.and down this country that ht is OK to talk about the babies and the

:57:03. > :57:07.children that we have lost. In fact it is more than OK, where wd feel we

:57:08. > :57:10.are able to, we should. And I had that people across this country seat

:57:11. > :57:13.that in the mother of all parliaments there is no subject that

:57:14. > :57:21.we won't abate or talk about if it is going to improve the livds of

:57:22. > :57:25.others. I would be delighted to I would like to congratulate him also

:57:26. > :57:30.to bring forward this debatd and this point about inspiring people to

:57:31. > :57:34.come forward. Two constituent of mine, that is what happened to them,

:57:35. > :57:41.their son was born after 23 weeks and six days. He lived for two and a

:57:42. > :57:46.half days further. Had he not live those are the two and a half days,

:57:47. > :57:51.he would have been considerdd a miscarriage rather than a short

:57:52. > :57:57.life. Does he consider, you cannot measure grief in how is, in days, in

:57:58. > :58:02.weeks. Does he not consider, in these days, we should reconsider the

:58:03. > :58:08.time, the criteria that we `pply for when a life is considered a life?

:58:09. > :58:12.Yes, I thank my honourable friend fray much for this contribution

:58:13. > :58:16.This is something that the `ll Parliamentary party group is looking

:58:17. > :58:20.at. He's absolutely right when he says how important it is th`t those

:58:21. > :58:25.who do suffer what is termed a miscarriage but let us be clear it

:58:26. > :58:29.is a life and a baby. Because of our abortion laws had all sorts of rules

:58:30. > :58:35.and regulations, where not `llowed to register that light and give that

:58:36. > :58:42.baby name. It is something that we are looking at. I would be delighted

:58:43. > :58:47.to. The following on this point if I may, the baby was born at 23 and a

:58:48. > :58:52.half weeks, sadly she had not lived, if she had she would be rushed

:58:53. > :58:58.straight to the baby care unit, the special care baby unit. But because

:58:59. > :59:02.she was born dead, although I always class as a stillbirth. Officially it

:59:03. > :59:06.was put down as a miscarriage, and I was not given a death certificate.

:59:07. > :59:11.It was another trauma on top of the trauma I have already gone through,

:59:12. > :59:17.because then on paper, it rdad miscarriage, she was blessed by the

:59:18. > :59:22.chaplain, went on to have a funeral which I felt was right. I hdld in my

:59:23. > :59:29.arms, she was a fully formed baby. I think it does have two addrdssed.

:59:30. > :59:33.Indeed, I absolutely agree `nd the honourable lady, for Washington and

:59:34. > :59:37.Sutherland East. I would also like to thank you for the huge role that

:59:38. > :59:40.you play on the all Parliamdntary party group and indeed on the

:59:41. > :59:46.formation of the group. Comhng back to the point on the importance of

:59:47. > :59:51.today, we are really lucky `nd I hope you agree, we have the best job

:59:52. > :59:54.in the world. I believe that where we can, we have a duty and

:59:55. > :00:05.responsibility to take the clearances. Experiences to lake a

:00:06. > :00:10.lot and the lives of others better and it through this debate, we can

:00:11. > :00:15.ensure, that we can in the fullness of time reduce the stillbirth rate

:00:16. > :00:20.and neonatal death rate by 40%, then that is an incredible target to aim

:00:21. > :00:29.for. And we can save the lives of 2000 babies. I congratulate him and

:00:30. > :00:33.other members for being so brave and speaking out in this debate. Friends

:00:34. > :00:38.of mine who were due to havd twin sadly lost one of their twins due to

:00:39. > :00:42.twin to twin trance fusion syndrome, and I'll see agree that it hs so

:00:43. > :00:46.important that all of the after care for parents who have lost b`bies

:00:47. > :00:52.that we consider the very dhfferent nature, of four example multiple

:00:53. > :00:58.births and ensure, that card is tailored appropriately to every

:00:59. > :01:02.circumstance. Absolutely and the honourable lady makes a verx good

:01:03. > :01:05.point. There are charities that do incredible work in this field

:01:06. > :01:13.indeed. One of my honourabld friend is raised this earlier too. I would

:01:14. > :01:17.be delighted to. The thank xou, I just wanted to follow on from that

:01:18. > :01:24.question with regard to mothers who experience late term baby loss, and

:01:25. > :01:28.the treatment that they recdive in hospitals. Very often they `re kept

:01:29. > :01:31.on maternity wards which can be incredibly traumatic so the point

:01:32. > :01:38.about tailoring carer and stpport for parents who lose their children,

:01:39. > :01:44.is remaining on the maternity ward, the most suitable space for people?

:01:45. > :01:48.I thank the honourable lady and I will come onto that honourable

:01:49. > :01:54.point, I would just like to share my own personal experience. Ag`in in

:01:55. > :02:01.the spirit of showing peopld outside of this chamber, we found ott at our

:02:02. > :02:06.20 week scan that our son h`d a very rare chromosomal disorder c`lled

:02:07. > :02:09.Edwards syndrome. The reality is, that is unhelpfully describdd as a

:02:10. > :02:15.condition that is not compatible with life. We knew throughott that

:02:16. > :02:20.the most likely outcome would be stillbirth at some point. Btt our

:02:21. > :02:25.son was an incredible littld fighter, he went full term, over 40

:02:26. > :02:32.weeks, he lost his life in the last few moments of labour at Colchester

:02:33. > :02:36.General Hospital. But I wanted to pick up on the honourable l`dy's

:02:37. > :02:40.point. In Colchester we havd a fantastic hospital that has a

:02:41. > :02:44.special bereavement suite c`lled the Rosemary suite where we got to spend

:02:45. > :02:45.some really special time, wd knew what the likely outcome sadly was

:02:46. > :02:59.going to be. I got to stay there overnight with

:03:00. > :03:03.my wife, we had a cold cot so we could have a lot of cuddles and we

:03:04. > :03:07.got to stay here with them. I completely agree with you, we

:03:08. > :03:10.brought this debate in Novelber last year on bereavement care in

:03:11. > :03:13.maternity units because berdavement suites are so important. Thdre

:03:14. > :03:19.should never be any excuse hn this country within the NHS for lother

:03:20. > :03:28.and father or mother who has lost a baby to go back onto water with a

:03:29. > :03:33.crying babies and happy famhlies and balloons because it is not

:03:34. > :03:37.appropriate. What you need hn that moment is peace and quiet to come to

:03:38. > :03:42.terms with the tragedy that has just happened. I would like to

:03:43. > :03:46.congratulate him and the Honourable lady and all others who havd been

:03:47. > :03:51.involved in this group. When my child died to three years ago at

:03:52. > :03:56.term, we did not have the bereavement suite in Leicester. We

:03:57. > :04:02.do now. The issue is not just the ability to be able to grievd and be

:04:03. > :04:06.with your child, it is also getting expert help and counselling at that

:04:07. > :04:11.moment. Because my wife was told she would never have children again

:04:12. > :04:15.after the stillbirth, we have had two children subsequently. Ht is so

:04:16. > :04:20.important to get that advicd at that time, does he agree? Yes, of course

:04:21. > :04:25.I agree and I will come onto this point later in my speech. From that

:04:26. > :04:31.debate in November on bereavement care in maternity units, I know the

:04:32. > :04:35.honourable member and I werd taken aback with the number of people

:04:36. > :04:40.across the country who were sharing their stories with us that got in

:04:41. > :04:45.touch. And at that point, wd sat down, during a finance bills are

:04:46. > :04:53.around 1:30am with the then care quality Minister, the member for

:04:54. > :04:58.Ipswich, alongside my friend who is not quite in her place, and the

:04:59. > :05:01.honourable lady for Washington and Sunderland East, and we thotght

:05:02. > :05:05.this is a far bigger issue than just bereavement suites. And babx loss is

:05:06. > :05:13.a whole subject that needs addressing. We were surprisdd there

:05:14. > :05:16.was not a group already looking at this area. So the Parliamentary

:05:17. > :05:19.group was formed in Februarx and I'm very proud of the work we h`ve been

:05:20. > :05:26.done so far, working with some amazing charities across thhs

:05:27. > :05:30.country. I cannot agree -- H cannot begin to name some because H would

:05:31. > :05:34.have to name them all. The charities that are large and do amazing

:05:35. > :05:35.fundraising through to the groups of just a handful of people who get

:05:36. > :05:46.together with each other in a local together with each other in a local

:05:47. > :05:49.pub or village hall and knit little pieces of clothing for babids who

:05:50. > :05:53.are premature and sadly losd their lives. It means so much that so many

:05:54. > :06:00.people want to make a difference. I cannot let this speech code by

:06:01. > :06:05.without also referencing thd support of the Speaker of the House, not

:06:06. > :06:10.allowing us kindly to use hhs allowing us kindly to use hhs

:06:11. > :06:17.apartments for the reception yesterday, and very kindly drawing

:06:18. > :06:22.baby loss awareness week, and yesterday what should have been my

:06:23. > :06:24.son's second birthday, to ask a question on this subject at PMQ 's.

:06:25. > :06:27.And to raise this issue in front of And to raise this issue in front of

:06:28. > :06:36.millions of people and the country's media. I think this is a debate . Of

:06:37. > :06:41.course. I know he does not want to name individual charities that

:06:42. > :06:46.Sadlers do a great job. One of the issues that has been raised is that

:06:47. > :06:51.one of the most powerful thhngs that they can do is put parents hn touch

:06:52. > :06:55.with parents, people who have gone through their expenses can share.

:06:56. > :06:59.Does he agree that that is ` very powerful thing to do in terls with

:07:00. > :07:03.this, a lot of people can elpathise with what people are going through

:07:04. > :07:08.but unless you have gone through it does, it is difficult to understand.

:07:09. > :07:12.He raises an incredibly good point. In the run-up to pregnancy we have

:07:13. > :07:18.groups like NTT and prenatal classes, -- MCT, I agree and the

:07:19. > :07:24.friends that we have made who have gone through similar experidnces,

:07:25. > :07:27.but you feel you can go through this with them because they have gone to

:07:28. > :07:32.the same things and that is right powerful. There is a role that's

:07:33. > :07:36.charities and the NHS can play in where parents feel able to, putting

:07:37. > :07:40.them in touch with other parents who may want to talk about their

:07:41. > :07:45.experience. I want to talk `bout the government targets. I know sometimes

:07:46. > :07:49.the government gets hard tile in relation to the NHS. In this area,

:07:50. > :07:52.this is something that they have accepted the premise of what we are

:07:53. > :07:57.arguing for. I will the first arguing for. I will the first

:07:58. > :08:02.meeting with the right honotrable friend, the number four Ipswich as

:08:03. > :08:08.care quality Minister, and ht was like pushing against an open door.

:08:09. > :08:12.We now have these very firm commitments, reduction by 20% by the

:08:13. > :08:17.end of this Parliament, and 50% by 2030. It is our job as an all-party

:08:18. > :08:21.Parliament regrouped to hold the government's speech to the fire and

:08:22. > :08:29.make sure make sure they ard working towards those and also that we start

:08:30. > :08:32.to see results. I could not let this debate go by without talking about

:08:33. > :08:35.some of these issues that the charities have raised with le, I

:08:36. > :08:39.will firstly touch on prevention and then talk about bereavement.

:08:40. > :08:44.Research in this area is absolutely vital. And as my good friend the

:08:45. > :08:58.honourable member for edits preset, around 50%, in fact 46% of

:08:59. > :09:01.stillbirth are unexplained. So why are South Asian women 60% more

:09:02. > :09:14.likely to have a stillbirth Chris Maguire? -- why is there a disparity

:09:15. > :09:21.between some part of the UK, 4. % in some areas and 7.1% in another area.

:09:22. > :09:26.That is a 25% variation. We need to look at multiple pregnancies, as I

:09:27. > :09:31.know my honourable friend h`s mentioned. We need to look `t lower

:09:32. > :09:34.income families, look at our European counterparts and sde why

:09:35. > :09:39.they are getting its own right and see how we can implement those

:09:40. > :09:40.measures here in the UK. -- C White they are getting it so right. A

:09:41. > :09:46.number of members have menthoned number of members have menthoned

:09:47. > :09:54.public and they are right to do so, whether it is maternal age, smoking,

:09:55. > :09:58.alcohol drugs. We could achheve a 7% reduction if no women smoked during

:09:59. > :10:02.pregnancy. This is a huge t`rgets to achieve. We can do a lot of work on

:10:03. > :10:11.smoking cessation around prdgnancy. The Bay City, around 12% -- in

:10:12. > :10:14.obesity, we could reduce it by 2% if no mothers were overweight or a

:10:15. > :10:22.piece. There is work we can do around in powering women and mothers

:10:23. > :10:26.to be. In initiatives like count the kicks, nobody knows their body like

:10:27. > :10:30.a mother. If they feel something is wrong, there is a good chance there

:10:31. > :10:34.is something wrong. When yot pick up the phone to the hospital or to your

:10:35. > :10:38.GP and it is dismissed as, do not worry, it is not important, no, get

:10:39. > :10:42.it checked out. If there is nothing to worry about, great. All those

:10:43. > :10:46.times we do not get it checked out and something terrible happdns, we

:10:47. > :10:49.have to hold ourselves responsible for that. Some of the innov`tion

:10:50. > :10:58.that is happening around in powering women, for example, these f`ntastic

:10:59. > :11:01.folders are being sponsored by Teddy's Wish, anyone who has had a

:11:02. > :11:08.baby knows that you get these maternal notes that you havd to

:11:09. > :11:11.carry around. These folders that these maternity notes go income it

:11:12. > :11:18.encourages mothers and fathdrs to look out for the signs, and when to

:11:19. > :11:21.pick up the phone and go to your GP and go to the hospital. This

:11:22. > :11:24.innovation is what we should be looking at. Investigation and

:11:25. > :11:28.reporting. It is so important that we learn the lessons from every

:11:29. > :11:33.single stillbirth and neonatal death. The days of covering things

:11:34. > :11:36.up and treating it as unexplained, these things happen, I am tdrribly

:11:37. > :11:40.sorry, it is not accidental and we have to learn from every single one.

:11:41. > :11:44.I am pleased that the government has put significant amount of money into

:11:45. > :11:47.setting up a system of reporting so we can absolutely investigate and

:11:48. > :11:54.learn from every single stillbirth and neonatal death. My honotrable

:11:55. > :12:00.friend mentioned postmortems. She is absolutely right to do so. So many

:12:01. > :12:03.parents do not get offered the opportunity to have a postmortem.

:12:04. > :12:06.What parent would want that opportunity? But the one ovdrriding

:12:07. > :12:10.factor for parents who lose children is often that they want to know why.

:12:11. > :12:14.They want to have an understanding of how it happened, and why it

:12:15. > :12:18.happened and how we can makd sure it does not happen again. So m`ny

:12:19. > :12:26.parents would opt for a postmortem so that they know that rese`rch can

:12:27. > :12:29.Help others. And if clinici`ns are not asking, often with good

:12:30. > :12:33.intentions because it is not an easy question, but we have to ask that

:12:34. > :12:41.question because we need to get that research done to cut our sthllbirth

:12:42. > :12:46.rates. I cannot member which member mentioned late stage pregnancy

:12:47. > :12:52.scanning. In this country, we do not scan past 20 weeks. We scan at 2

:12:53. > :12:56.weeks and 20 weeks. There is no routine scanning past that `nd I

:12:57. > :13:00.find that quite bizarre, if I am honest. About halfway through your

:13:01. > :13:04.pregnancy you get an abnorm`lity scan, but after that, you are not

:13:05. > :13:11.seen again in terms of us c`n until you arrive at the hospital hn

:13:12. > :13:15.labour. If we were to look `t other countries across the world, but in

:13:16. > :13:20.particular let in Europe who do scans at 36 weeks or Doppler scans,

:13:21. > :13:29.there are huge implements wd can make in that area. I want to make

:13:30. > :13:32.one point clear. Around prevention, the NHS is brilliant and whdre we

:13:33. > :13:35.get it right in this countrx, we really get it right. The problem is

:13:36. > :13:38.the level of inconsistency `cross the NHS in the UK. And part of this

:13:39. > :13:42.work, and I know the Secret`ry of work, and I know the Secret`ry of

:13:43. > :13:45.State and the Minister will agree when I say this, is that we have

:13:46. > :13:49.some of the best care in thd world but the important point is that is

:13:50. > :13:54.repeated in every hospital `nd every maternity unit in the country.

:13:55. > :13:57.Having that consistent level of care so whichever hospital or GP you are

:13:58. > :14:04.in, you will get the same ldvel of care and consistent advice. Even if

:14:05. > :14:10.we do manage to achieve our target, even if we do half our stillbirth

:14:11. > :14:14.rate, match our European counterparts and reduce our

:14:15. > :14:18.stillbirth rate by 50%, that is still going to mean somewhere

:14:19. > :14:24.between 1500 and 2500 parents going through this personal tragedy every

:14:25. > :14:26.year. That is why as part of the all-party Parliamentary grotp, we

:14:27. > :14:32.put as important an emphasis on bereavement. I have talked `bout

:14:33. > :14:36.consistency of care across the NHS and is very much feeds into that

:14:37. > :14:40.point. We should have consistency of bereavement pathway care across the

:14:41. > :14:44.NHS as well. It is important that we look at things like training for

:14:45. > :14:46.staff. I know the Secretary of State and the Minister has put huge amount

:14:47. > :14:53.of funding into training as part of of funding into training as part of

:14:54. > :14:57.this plan to reduce stillbirth rates significantly because trainhng is

:14:58. > :15:01.to my honourable friend for his part to my honourable friend for his part

:15:02. > :15:04.in securing this debate. I have mentioned already my constituents

:15:05. > :15:09.who had the nightmare of losing their baby boy, I asked the mother

:15:10. > :15:12.to write to me to set out what precisely had happened and one of

:15:13. > :15:17.the most harrowing part of `n already harrowing story was when she

:15:18. > :15:20.told me that at the hospital, she was not given, she and her husband

:15:21. > :15:24.were not allowed to stay with the little boy for long. They wdre

:15:25. > :15:29.pressured to leave. And when to leaving the baby boy, she w`nted to

:15:30. > :15:34.go back to give her last goodbye, she was refused, she collapsed to

:15:35. > :15:39.the floor, and the officials around her said, that if she did not get

:15:40. > :15:46.up, she would have to go in a wheelchair or a stretcher. @s it was

:15:47. > :15:47.time to go. Good God. Does ly honourable friend agree that

:15:48. > :15:50.kindness costs nothing, and there is kindness costs nothing, and there is

:15:51. > :15:55.a duty on anyone whether in the NHS or in the police, to make stre that

:15:56. > :15:58.they are dealing with parents in this situation, that they do it with

:15:59. > :16:05.kindness and that is very mtch part of the way they behaved? Yes, she

:16:06. > :16:09.raises a point and I only whsh that raises a point and I only whsh that

:16:10. > :16:15.the disgraceful behaviour and storage she has related to le was

:16:16. > :16:19.unique but it is not. Storids I have read and personal testimony I have

:16:20. > :16:24.heard sadly echoed those experiences. I think this is exactly

:16:25. > :16:27.what we need to address. Yot are quite right, this is why tr`ining is

:16:28. > :16:32.so important and we have midwives and clinicians trained around

:16:33. > :16:34.bereavement. Language to usd, what not to say, I will not even repeat

:16:35. > :16:43.some of the things that are set to some of the things that are set to

:16:44. > :16:46.parents who aren't -- who are grieving. In our case it was not a

:16:47. > :16:49.huge shock but for many pardnts this is something that has happened

:16:50. > :16:54.instantly almost and I had no idea this was coming. They are are at the

:16:55. > :16:58.most emotionally fragile period in most emotionally fragile period in

:16:59. > :17:01.their life and it costs nothing to act with kindness, empathy `nd

:17:02. > :17:05.compassion. I would like to think that we can reach a point where

:17:06. > :17:08.those are things that are rtnning through every maternity unit in a

:17:09. > :17:15.country and an over vast jollity it is, but where we have -- I know the

:17:16. > :17:21.vast majority it is, but whdre it is not, we have to change this. We have

:17:22. > :17:24.to have a bereavement suite in every hospital in the country, we have to

:17:25. > :17:28.have bereavement trained midwives in every hospital in the country, we

:17:29. > :17:32.need those gynaecology trained counsellors in every maternhty unit

:17:33. > :17:33.in the country. And we also need that ongoing mental health support.

:17:34. > :17:37.The time at which you leave the The time at which you leave the

:17:38. > :17:42.hospital is not the end of xour grief. For many people it is just

:17:43. > :17:43.the start. When it comes to future pregnancies, that can be ond of the

:17:44. > :17:46.most traumatic pregnancies because most traumatic pregnancies because

:17:47. > :17:50.you are thinking, from the day you will find that you are pregnant to

:17:51. > :17:53.the day you have got a crying baby in your arms, is this going to

:17:54. > :17:58.happen again? What mental hdalth support is available? In sole parts

:17:59. > :18:04.other parts, it simply is not. And other parts, it simply is not. And

:18:05. > :18:11.finally, I just want to touch on two other points. One is relationship

:18:12. > :18:14.support. We know that betwedn 8 and 90% of relationships break tp after

:18:15. > :18:19.social cost as well so that mental social cost as well so that mental

:18:20. > :18:23.health support is so import`nt. I also think, and partly the reason

:18:24. > :18:26.why I am co-chair of this Parliamentary group is that the

:18:27. > :18:30.voice of fathers has to be heard as well. The father that feel that they

:18:31. > :18:34.have to act as a rock. But hn many cases we were there as well,

:18:35. > :18:41.witnessing it and there is nothing, there is nothing, no experidnce in

:18:42. > :18:45.my view, worse than seeing xour wife gives birth to a lifeless b`by. It

:18:46. > :18:49.is something that never leaves you. And every single day I think about

:18:50. > :18:53.my son, I think about what he would have been like yesterday on his

:18:54. > :18:57.second birthday, I imagine ` small boy running around our housd,

:18:58. > :19:01.causing havoc, winding up hhs sisters. It is not to be. Btt every

:19:02. > :19:11.single day you live in that grief. Fathers need support to.

:19:12. > :19:16.This is a hugely exciting thme for us because the opportunity for

:19:17. > :19:25.change is enormous, the APPG is making enormous progress and work we

:19:26. > :19:28.have done already vision documents, and what we have achieved shnce

:19:29. > :19:32.there be working with these magnificent charities all across the

:19:33. > :19:38.country, with individual spdeding in their personal experiences, has been

:19:39. > :19:42.incredible. And this is just the beginning of this journey. This is

:19:43. > :19:44.just the point that we have set our vision and aspiration and what we

:19:45. > :19:47.want to achieve and I know that pushing against an open door with a

:19:48. > :19:55.government, they want to achieve these targets to. I just want to

:19:56. > :19:58.send one final message to every single parent that is bereaved up

:19:59. > :20:02.and down the country and we care and we are going to keep talking about

:20:03. > :20:06.it and were not get it stopped talking about it until we rdduce our

:20:07. > :20:10.stillbirth rate and most importantly that we have the best quality

:20:11. > :20:17.bereavement care in the world, thank you. Thank you Mr Deputy Spdaker and

:20:18. > :20:21.it is a pleasure to follow the honourable member for Colchdster, is

:20:22. > :20:27.excellent and passion contrhbution. Of course this is such a sensitive

:20:28. > :20:29.and important subject and I want to congratulate the honourable members

:20:30. > :20:35.for securing this debate at this very important week. And for

:20:36. > :20:40.speaking about their own personal experiences. I also want to pay

:20:41. > :20:44.tribute, to the very brave honourable members, who share their

:20:45. > :20:52.personal experiences, with such eloquence today. My honourable

:20:53. > :20:56.friend, the member for Lewisham Deptford, and North Ayrshird and

:20:57. > :21:03.Arran, and my very good honourable friend, the member for Washhngton

:21:04. > :21:06.and Sunderland West. In Hull, the levels of stillbirth and neonatal

:21:07. > :21:09.death are higher than the n`tional average and there is so much more as

:21:10. > :21:13.we have heard already that needs to be done but I want to put on record

:21:14. > :21:20.my tribute to the excellent work of the hull and East Yorkshire route in

:21:21. > :21:26.supporting parents and I also but to the trust under the inspirational

:21:27. > :21:36.readership -- leadership Fr`ncine Bates. But today I want to go back

:21:37. > :21:40.to the issue, about injustice. We know that the trauma of the loss of

:21:41. > :21:47.a baby can also be compounddd by what happens next. And I want to

:21:48. > :21:51.tell you the story of my constituents, my Cantina Trow Hill.

:21:52. > :21:55.Who came to see me to tell le about what had happened to them. They

:21:56. > :22:02.explained that their baby Whlliam, had very sadly died in 1994, a long

:22:03. > :22:09.time ago. And they had been told at the time that when he was cremated

:22:10. > :22:14.there would be no Ashes. Many, many years later, Tina discovered that

:22:15. > :22:19.baby William's caches had in fact been retained, never been rdturned

:22:20. > :22:26.to her, and somebody had sc`ttered them without her knowledge. This was

:22:27. > :22:31.very sad and bewildering. Why would somebody do this. It soon bdcame

:22:32. > :22:35.very apparent that this was not a very sad one-off incident. Tina has

:22:36. > :22:40.worked relentlessly in Hull and the wider Hull area to help manx other

:22:41. > :22:44.families who have also discovered that their baby 's ashes were either

:22:45. > :22:47.not return to them or scattdred without their knowledge, or there is

:22:48. > :22:59.still a mystery as to where the ashes are now. She, set on, the

:23:00. > :23:03.local ashes group, it now h`s 4 0 members. She has discovered that

:23:04. > :23:07.many families were told that there would be no Ashes when their baby

:23:08. > :23:12.was cremated, many families were told this by clinicians and nurses

:23:13. > :23:18.in the NHS, many families now have discovered that those ashes were

:23:19. > :23:24.scattered. Over 50 sets of `shes are still held by the co-operathve

:23:25. > :23:28.funeral service, and have not been returned to families. There are

:23:29. > :23:31.cases coming to light where babies appear to have been transported to

:23:32. > :23:39.the crematorium without the use of an undertaker. And Tina herself has

:23:40. > :23:43.helped families submit forms to the local authority, seeking information

:23:44. > :23:50.about what happened to thosd babies. She submitted over 50 such requests

:23:51. > :23:55.so far. And it is quite cle`r now that this has not just happdned in

:23:56. > :24:00.Hull but up and down the cotntry, it has happened in Scotland and in

:24:01. > :24:03.Shrewsbury. And is Rosebery, the local authority rightly, held an

:24:04. > :24:11.enquiring to find out what had happened and to get those answers

:24:12. > :24:16.for local families. So in Htll, Tina and I decided that we would see Hull

:24:17. > :24:20.City Council and asked run independent enquiring just `s they

:24:21. > :24:25.had had in Shrewsbury and while initially sympathetic, the Council

:24:26. > :24:33.decided no. They wouldn't bd willing to hold such an enquiring. We

:24:34. > :24:38.challenge them on this, sayhng it wasn't just OK for the local

:24:39. > :24:43.authority to investigate itself But no, they said they weren't willing

:24:44. > :24:47.to have that local enquiring. So I raised it with the previous Prime

:24:48. > :24:52.Minister David Cameron. And I asked him what he thought about it and he

:24:53. > :24:55.expressed to me that actually, it must be dreadful not to know what

:24:56. > :25:00.has happened to your baby 's ashes and something should be dond.

:25:01. > :25:04.Eventually Tina and I went to see the Justice Secretary, the Right

:25:05. > :25:12.Honourable member for Surrex Heath. And I think he was genuinelx moved

:25:13. > :25:17.by Tina's plight, and the m`ny families in Hull who did not know

:25:18. > :25:20.what had happened. Tina madd it very clear to the Justice Secret`ry, what

:25:21. > :25:27.she wanted to see was a loc`l enquiring to get the answers to what

:25:28. > :25:30.had happened. And on the 10th of May the Justice Secretary wrote on Baha

:25:31. > :25:35.Provencal, Secretary of State for Health and the Secretary of State

:25:36. > :25:40.for the Department for Commtnities and Local Government and sahd this.

:25:41. > :25:44."I'm Pleased to be a will to tell you that my fellow secretarhes of

:25:45. > :25:49.State at the Department of Health and communities and local government

:25:50. > :25:53.have agreed with me that thdre is a need for a historic investigation

:25:54. > :26:01.into the practices relating to infant cremations for the whole

:26:02. > :26:06.area. And today, we have asked them to commission this. Well, you can

:26:07. > :26:10.imagine, we were delighted to have that, and to have three secretaries

:26:11. > :26:16.of state acknowledge that, those families deserve to know wh`t had

:26:17. > :26:19.happened. That was excellent news, and I was delighted that thd

:26:20. > :26:24.Secretary of State decided to do that. However, there were two

:26:25. > :26:29.issues, rightly so that rem`ined of concern. One was the jurisdhction

:26:30. > :26:33.point, it wasn't just about the local council who had responsibility

:26:34. > :26:35.for the crematorium, it was also about the national Health Sdrvice

:26:36. > :26:37.and the role that they playdd, and the training needs and anything else

:26:38. > :26:47.that might come out of any Inquiry. There was also an hssue

:26:48. > :26:51.about private funeral directors and how they would be compelled to be

:26:52. > :26:54.part of any investigation, so it was quite clear that there were some

:26:55. > :26:59.issues that needed to be addressed. And the other issue that I did have

:27:00. > :27:03.quite a lot of sympathy with, was about the cost of holding an

:27:04. > :27:06.independent enquiring. We know that enquiries and be expensive `nd we

:27:07. > :27:13.know that both councils are under enormous financial pressure at the

:27:14. > :27:17.moment. So I supported, Hull City Council, in returning to thd

:27:18. > :27:21.Department of Justice and asking for cavitation on those two points.

:27:22. > :27:24.Jurisdiction and whether thdre was any financial help availabld. That

:27:25. > :27:31.all seem to be going well, H thought they were genuine issues to deal

:27:32. > :27:35.with. However on the 26th of December 2016, the new Justhce

:27:36. > :27:40.Secretary wrote to Hull Citx Council, saying that she thought it

:27:41. > :27:45.was now no longer any need for an enquiring. This letter was not

:27:46. > :27:49.copied to me or my constitudnt, and I only became aware of it bdcause

:27:50. > :27:55.the Chief Executive of Hull City Council sent a copy to me. H had to

:27:56. > :27:59.say on behalf of my constittents and many families in Hull, I am furious

:28:00. > :28:06.that a decision made by thrde secretaries of state, was jtst

:28:07. > :28:15.completely overturned with no consultation, or any kind of

:28:16. > :28:20.attempt, to consult with me or my constituent, my constituent as you

:28:21. > :28:25.can imagine is devastated. @nd when I read the letter from Hull City

:28:26. > :28:27.Council, it said that they had carried out investigations, they

:28:28. > :28:34.were satisfied that everythhng had been done as it could be done.

:28:35. > :28:39.Reading the letter it was also clear that they had not engage fully with

:28:40. > :28:42.the problems around the NHS and the funeral directors and is certainly

:28:43. > :28:46.hadn't engaged fully with the families. In recent years, we have

:28:47. > :28:52.become very much more an opdn country and we are less willing to

:28:53. > :28:54.take the word of trust and `uthority figures. Organisations left to

:28:55. > :28:59.investigate themselves, rardly see the need for independent scrutiny of

:29:00. > :29:04.their actions. You only havd to look at cases like Hillsborough.

:29:05. > :29:07.Organisations that investig`te themselves almost always find

:29:08. > :29:13.nothing much wrong and no one answerable for any error th`t is

:29:14. > :29:19.ever owned up to. Nothing to see here, go away, move on, could be the

:29:20. > :29:23.motto of that culture. Now ht nearly 100 families in Hull coming forward,

:29:24. > :29:26.they are not just going to go away and accept that they will not get

:29:27. > :29:31.the answers to the questions they are asking about the ashes of their

:29:32. > :29:36.deceased babies and what happened. A proper independent enquiring, run

:29:37. > :29:41.from outside Hull City Council, that at a proper independent Inqtiry As

:29:42. > :29:48.to whether or not more could be learned is the least that they

:29:49. > :29:54.deserve. Without the lessons of the past learned, there will be less

:29:55. > :29:58.confidence, as to whether rdforming practices in the crematoriul by

:29:59. > :30:01.ministers will be enough. I do not understand why the Secretarx of

:30:02. > :30:04.State for Justice, what she had to gain by closing down the prospect of

:30:05. > :30:11.proper independent scrutiny of what went wrong in Hull. In this week in

:30:12. > :30:16.particular, I would just ask the Minister to put himself in the shoes

:30:17. > :30:21.of those families in Hull, who want answers and justice. And thdre are

:30:22. > :30:25.three key demands. First of all I believe that my constituent ought to

:30:26. > :30:28.receive an apology from the Secretary of State justice `nd I

:30:29. > :30:32.think she ought to give her the courtesy of a personal meethng just

:30:33. > :30:35.as the previous Secretary of State did. And thirdly, I think the

:30:36. > :30:40.independent investigation as to what happened to the baby ashes hn Hull

:30:41. > :30:44.should be reinstated forthwhth, with funding from the government to

:30:45. > :30:54.ensure that this enquiring can go ahead. -- this Inquiry. What an

:30:55. > :30:57.honour it is to follow that speech, from the Honourable Lady from

:30:58. > :31:03.Kingston Uppal Hull. We havd looked closely together on difficulties

:31:04. > :31:07.relating to infant cremations. And I very much listened with intdrest as

:31:08. > :31:11.to what she had to say todax. When my son died I was told by otr

:31:12. > :31:15.consultant that one day it would be possible to put my grief in the box

:31:16. > :31:20.and only open the box when ht suited me. The sea at the time I thought

:31:21. > :31:23.she was completely insane. Now I realise it is possible to h`ve an

:31:24. > :31:26.element of control over lifting the lid on public although not when I

:31:27. > :31:33.have exercise particularly well today. -- not one. Over the years I

:31:34. > :31:35.have talked about my experidnces, raising money for mental he`lth

:31:36. > :31:45.charities and I have learned that nothing opens those wallets quicker

:31:46. > :31:49.than tears. I have also, talked to midwives, they are used emotional

:31:50. > :31:54.mothers, it is an honour to be Vice chair of this APPG and to h`ve been

:31:55. > :31:57.thereat its conception, one very late night in the tearoom. We have

:31:58. > :32:02.well and truly lifted the lhd this week in Parliament which is an

:32:03. > :32:06.achievement itself. But just as importantly we have succeeddd in

:32:07. > :32:08.enlisting both health and Elma J Minister certainly to date, to our

:32:09. > :32:17.cause. The Secretary of State's emotion was obvious to all `nd I was

:32:18. > :32:21.piece to see him earlier. The charitable fundraiser in me did

:32:22. > :32:26.wonder if next year we should ask a well-known tissue manufacturer tiffs

:32:27. > :32:39.to sponsor this debate next year. In brief, during my third pregnancy, my

:32:40. > :32:45.son died soon after he was born and for some time it was not all if I

:32:46. > :32:48.was surprised. To put it into context, my father slipped from this

:32:49. > :32:52.place at a time of enormous difficulty from the governmdnt which

:32:53. > :32:55.shows clearly it was considdred serious, my condition was vdry

:32:56. > :33:00.serious. I went on to have two more children aged 15 and 13.

:33:01. > :33:06.With your permission I would like to touch on learning points from my own

:33:07. > :33:13.experience, then about some of the work we have done in the APG this

:33:14. > :33:18.year, them finally make somd points about maternity going forward. The

:33:19. > :33:23.learning points from my own expect out of date but sadly not all of the

:33:24. > :33:27.things have been put right, obviously physical care comds first

:33:28. > :33:30.in maternal and baby death hs a real possibility but someone needs to be

:33:31. > :33:35.tasked with the mental care of the whole family as the death of the

:33:36. > :33:40.baby leaves deep scars in so many in his or her relations. Memorhes,

:33:41. > :33:43.clothes and photos make a rdal difference later, however mtch they

:33:44. > :33:46.seem like frippery at the thme. Putting bereaved mothers in with my

:33:47. > :33:51.babies is not on, however ill they babies is not on, however ill they

:33:52. > :33:55.are. Explaining what is going on all the time is critical, and m`de new

:33:56. > :34:01.to be done many times to different family members. Medical conditions

:34:02. > :34:07.has to be understood by those suffering. Midwives, as my

:34:08. > :34:10.honourable friend said, need more than one hour of bream and training

:34:11. > :34:15.and they also need training on how to have grown-up conversations on

:34:16. > :34:20.things like lactation which are utterly lacking in my experhence.

:34:21. > :34:25.Training all obstetric staff is so important because so many p`tients

:34:26. > :34:29.go on to have more children, GPs and other health workers also nded to be

:34:30. > :34:33.aware of the long-term effect of baby loss. It is difficult to go

:34:34. > :34:37.back to the hospital with whatever condition in the future, let alone

:34:38. > :34:41.want to do with pregnancy. Where possible, parents should not have to

:34:42. > :34:46.do to tell and we tell their story at every important. The syndrome I

:34:47. > :34:50.list suffered from Leeds to multiple organ failure, so not being a doctor

:34:51. > :34:56.and not understanding what hs wrong with me now, if I have a minor

:34:57. > :35:01.condition and go to the doctor means I have to go through the whole story

:35:02. > :35:04.again. The simple flag on mx notes would be easy to do so is every time

:35:05. > :35:10.I have my blood pressure taken I have to retell everything. Fathers,

:35:11. > :35:15.as my honourable friend mentioned, get ignored. We need proper evidence

:35:16. > :35:20.of the effects of babies piling on relationships. We have some evidence

:35:21. > :35:27.that we have touched on -- babies dying on relationships. This is not

:35:28. > :35:31.good enough. May I read frol this Lancet article, fathers reported

:35:32. > :35:35.feeling added knowledge is ` legitimately grieving parents. The

:35:36. > :35:39.burden of these men keeping feelings to themselves increase the risk of

:35:40. > :35:44.chronic grief. Differences hn the grieving process stream pardnts can

:35:45. > :35:48.lead to incongruent grief, which was reported to cause serious

:35:49. > :35:51.relationship issues. Affect on grandparents should also be

:35:52. > :35:54.considered. In the case of ly own parents, they had to cope whth a lot

:35:55. > :36:00.of their grandchild and the very near loss of their daughter. In my

:36:01. > :36:04.view, access to mental health provision must be standardised and

:36:05. > :36:10.good practice copied. 40% of parents of premature babies need sole mental

:36:11. > :36:14.health intervention. For those with babies who die, I would certainly

:36:15. > :36:17.suggest that everyone need `t least an assessment. I also think that

:36:18. > :36:21.relationship counselling should be offered as part of an autom`tic

:36:22. > :36:27.deal, although I do not know what pages this would be benefichal at.

:36:28. > :36:33.At the very least, we need dvidence of the effect of baby loss on

:36:34. > :36:38.relationships. The APPG is lade up of individuals with different

:36:39. > :36:43.expenses and talents, the mdmber for Colchester is excellent on parental

:36:44. > :36:46.leave, the other member knows about pathways of care. My role this year

:36:47. > :36:51.has been instant cremations, not least because of a constitudncy case

:36:52. > :36:56.I had. While I am aware that the minister here is not the Minister

:36:57. > :37:01.responding, is not the minister who should respond on infant crdmation

:37:02. > :37:04.issues, it is important that we have a cross departmental and johned up

:37:05. > :37:09.approach to this so I would welcome his intervention is necessary or at

:37:10. > :37:13.least his speaking to the Mhnistry of Justice about this. I th`nk my

:37:14. > :37:17.giving way, thank you Mr Deputy giving way, thank you Mr Deputy

:37:18. > :37:26.Speaker. I would be horrifidd I listen to this debate, I have never

:37:27. > :37:30.lost a baby my family. I am horrified and I am upset, btt it

:37:31. > :37:37.seems to me that surely, a lother that gives birth, still bordd or

:37:38. > :37:44.not, it is her baby, the falily s baby. Surely -- stillborn or not, it

:37:45. > :37:47.is her baby, the family's b`by. Surely she and the father should

:37:48. > :37:50.have absolute rights with what happens with cremation and

:37:51. > :37:57.thereafter. I absolutely horrified that they do not at the momdnt. I

:37:58. > :38:00.thank my honourable friend for his helpful intervention. We have the

:38:01. > :38:05.APPG welcome the MOT consultation and the subsequent response which

:38:06. > :38:08.was published just before the summer. It seems we are on the cusp

:38:09. > :38:15.of some very important changes in this area. What I would ask is that

:38:16. > :38:20.we push that these happen speedily, they are very important. I `m

:38:21. > :38:24.grateful to my honourable friend for letting me intervene on her in and

:38:25. > :38:28.important speech. I would lhke to inform the House on the back of that

:38:29. > :38:31.comment, that my colleague the Minister at the Ministry of Justice

:38:32. > :38:37.announced last month before mention of a national cremation working

:38:38. > :38:41.group which is working now with all interested parties including looking

:38:42. > :38:45.to take members of this house's evidence, and I encourage all of

:38:46. > :38:48.participate. I thank the Minister participate. I thank the Minister

:38:49. > :38:52.for that and we were thrilldd in the APPG by the formation of th`t group.

:38:53. > :38:57.May I in this context gives the House a few more examples from the

:38:58. > :38:59.are particularly important that are are particularly important that are

:39:00. > :39:04.taken forward speedily. We hope that taken forward speedily. We hope that

:39:05. > :39:08.the MoJ will provide a statttory definition of Ashes to make sure

:39:09. > :39:14.that everything cremated with a baby, including personal itdms and

:39:15. > :39:18.covered, must be recovered. We also help that the MoJ will amend

:39:19. > :39:25.cremation application forms to make explicit the applicant's wishes in

:39:26. > :39:31.relation to the Ashes recovdred And crucially, for many I know this is

:39:32. > :39:35.an important point, bring the cremation of foetuses of less than

:39:36. > :39:40.24 weeks gestation within the scope of the regulation where pardnts wish

:39:41. > :39:44.this to happen. There is sole positive news in a very sensitive

:39:45. > :39:49.area. Moving on to the future of maternity more generally, mx

:39:50. > :39:54.overriding constituency concern at the moment is the future of the

:39:55. > :39:58.Horton General Hospital. If I am honest, it occupies most of my

:39:59. > :40:02.waking moments and my children complained during our summer holiday

:40:03. > :40:08.in August that I cannot forlulate a sentence without the word Horton in

:40:09. > :40:15.it. I fear that is true. Thhs summer, I found that the lid being

:40:16. > :40:18.listed on my own experience is repeatedly, as we have real safety

:40:19. > :40:21.concerns surrounding the downgrading of our obstetric unit at thd Horton

:40:22. > :40:25.General. Since last week, a midwife General. Since last week, a midwife

:40:26. > :40:30.led unit remains at the Horton General but all mothers who may need

:40:31. > :40:35.obstetric care, and that is may need not necessarily will need, that is

:40:36. > :40:39.the majority of mothers, has to go either under their own steal or be

:40:40. > :40:44.transferred as an emergency to the JR in Oxford. In a blue light

:40:45. > :40:49.ambulance, this is a journex between 22 and 27 miles depending on the

:40:50. > :40:54.route. It takes around 45 mhnutes. If travelling on your own c`r, and

:40:55. > :40:56.mothers have their own cars, mothers have their own cars,

:40:57. > :41:00.depending on where you live and the state of the Oxford traffic, it can

:41:01. > :41:05.easily take up to an hour and a half. The decision to downgrade was

:41:06. > :41:10.taken on safety grounds as the trust had failed to recruit enough

:41:11. > :41:13.obstetricians. I must say, H have severe safety concerns for the

:41:14. > :41:20.mothers and babies in our area now. In 2008, a report concluded the

:41:21. > :41:23.distance was too far for our unit to be downgraded. As I see it, nothing

:41:24. > :41:30.has changed except that the Oxford traffic has worsened. I'm kden

:41:31. > :41:35.generally that we start to be kinder to mothers during pregnancy and

:41:36. > :41:41.mean courage in them to labour on mean courage in them to labour on

:41:42. > :41:47.the back of a car on the ro`d. With a personal care actually le`ds to

:41:48. > :41:51.better outcomes. We need to take very careful note of the baroness's

:41:52. > :41:56.I commend Asians in her better birth report. She says that birth --

:41:57. > :42:00.recommendations in her birth report. She said that both should bdcome

:42:01. > :42:04.kinder and more family friendly We must use the impetus of events such

:42:05. > :42:10.as this week to drive through her major recommendations. Chief among

:42:11. > :42:18.these must be the recommend`tion for continuity not of care, but of

:42:19. > :42:30.carer. This has been shown to reduce premature deaths by 24%. Professor

:42:31. > :42:36.Lesley Regan, this first wolan president of the wild card of

:42:37. > :42:39.applications -- president of the Royal College of obstetrici`ns has

:42:40. > :42:43.done a plethora of search which demonstrate that reassurancd and

:42:44. > :42:50.continuity with weekly scans and meetings with the midwife h`s

:42:51. > :42:55.reduced the rate of recurrent miscarriage by 80%, these women have

:42:56. > :42:59.miscarried three or four tiles. The honourable friend mentioned earlier

:43:00. > :43:03.the excellent work being done at Queen Charlotte. In this context I

:43:04. > :43:07.have troubled that the sustainability and transforlation

:43:08. > :43:11.plans made push us towards larger units have left personal care. It

:43:12. > :43:15.maybe I am wrong and I hope I am. Perhaps it is safer for these giant

:43:16. > :43:22.units to deliver the majority of babies. But I worry that in my case

:43:23. > :43:26.in boundary, decisions are being taken in my constituency without

:43:27. > :43:29.their views being considered and without real evidence of thd risks

:43:30. > :43:38.being involved. Everyone in the House is clearly committed to

:43:39. > :43:43.reducing baby loss and therd is clear evidence. We have evidence

:43:44. > :43:50.-based research to show us how to do that and I refer the Ministdr very

:43:51. > :43:53.firmly to the baroness's report Better bereavement care is

:43:54. > :44:02.important, and sadly some b`bies such as mine will always did, but

:44:03. > :44:10.reduce premature death of b`by. I reduce premature death of b`by. I

:44:11. > :44:16.need to be able to tell my constituency is members that they

:44:17. > :44:19.will not suffer as I did. It is a pleasure to follow that excdllent,

:44:20. > :44:26.very moving and yet very pr`ctical speech from the honourable lember

:44:27. > :44:29.who is making me want to crx. I think the idea of having a tissue

:44:30. > :44:33.manufacturer sponsoring this debate was quite a good one. I would also

:44:34. > :44:37.like to pay tribute to the honourable member for industry and

:44:38. > :44:44.the honourable member for Colchester for bringing this really important

:44:45. > :44:51.debate of the House. We are all owing them for raising awardness of

:44:52. > :44:54.this issue, as one of their commitment to the APPG. I would also

:44:55. > :45:01.like to pay tribute to the families who actually started baby loss

:45:02. > :45:02.awareness Day in 2002, and now to the thousands of families across the

:45:03. > :45:07.country who continue the colmitment country who continue the colmitment

:45:08. > :45:14.to helping other family through their grief was highlighting whilst

:45:15. > :45:19.highlighting the lack of colmunity bereavement care. Thousands of

:45:20. > :45:25.families each year in the UK suffer the tragedy of losing a child and

:45:26. > :45:32.hopefully this debate might in some small way leads to them not having

:45:33. > :45:34.are not alone in their grief. This are not alone in their grief. This

:45:35. > :45:38.debate has raised many issuds, many debate has raised many issuds, many

:45:39. > :45:45.of which are uncomfortable but very necessary if we have to change

:45:46. > :45:51.policy to help reduce infant death, help save the rear families from

:45:52. > :45:54.isolation, and to make sure -- bereaved families from isol`tion,

:45:55. > :45:58.and make sure that the best possible neonatal care is

:45:59. > :46:01.and make sure that the best possible neonatal care available to dveryone

:46:02. > :46:06.in the NHS. Before I was eldcted to this place, I worked in the NHS in

:46:07. > :46:12.the Northwest. They perform some good work in this area incltding

:46:13. > :46:17.holding an annual baby memorial day for parents who had lost babies in

:46:18. > :46:20.the hospital, which was led by our excellent hospital chaplains who

:46:21. > :46:23.performed such a good service to bereaved parents. Sadly, I was asked

:46:24. > :46:29.to attend this debate by my constituent Jane Casey whosd

:46:30. > :46:37.daughter tragically died shortly after her birth at the trust. Jane

:46:38. > :46:40.has still not received the root cause analysis into her daughter's

:46:41. > :46:48.Beth from the trust, and IM helping her in obtaining this report 11

:46:49. > :46:53.months after her death. Jamhe says, and these are her words, thd

:46:54. > :46:58.hospital has made me feel that my daughter's life was not important. I

:46:59. > :47:08.am completely broken and find life a struggle. I keep on going bdcause of

:47:09. > :47:13.my son. Such a sad words and so typical of examples that have been

:47:14. > :47:16.shared today. I really am hopeful that this debate could achidve some

:47:17. > :47:20.practical steps to avoid falilies suffering such grief. And hdalth

:47:21. > :47:23.visitors, who have not been mentioned yet, they play such an

:47:24. > :47:30.important role pre-and post-pregnancy and can give support

:47:31. > :47:35.and practical help and yet there role is undervalued. Since 2015

:47:36. > :47:40.health visitors have been ddvolved to local authorities but since then

:47:41. > :47:44.we have seen nearly ?200 million of cuts to local authorities. The

:47:45. > :47:49.former Chancellor of the extractor announced a further ?77 million cut

:47:50. > :47:55.in the next year and ?84 million in the year after. The funding

:47:56. > :47:58.transferred with these health visiting services was not rhng

:47:59. > :48:02.fenced and I sincerely hope that under the guidance of a new Prime

:48:03. > :48:04.Minister and new Chancellor, that they will look at protecting and

:48:05. > :48:13.investing more in this vital service. Staggeringly, 68% of local

:48:14. > :48:17.bereavement support while ndarly a bereavement support while ndarly a

:48:18. > :48:23.fifth of ccs also do not offer such a service. For what seems a vital

:48:24. > :48:26.and necessary provision for families in their time of greatest nded, the

:48:27. > :48:34.failure to do so is clearly apparent in our health care structurds. I am

:48:35. > :48:36.pleased to say that NHS England are currently developing the chhldren

:48:37. > :48:44.palliative care funding currency, which includes pre-brief and care

:48:45. > :48:47.before a baby or child dies, but sadly overlooks bereavement care

:48:48. > :48:49.would hope to see is being lade to would hope to see is being lade to

:48:50. > :48:58.this policy. The government and this has also has

:48:59. > :49:01.the opportunity to make changes by moving the rubble member from

:49:02. > :49:07.Colchester boss might build to have on the statute books parent`l brief

:49:08. > :49:11.believe, this would give thd right entitlement to leave of absdnce for

:49:12. > :49:15.bereaved parents. This is a common right across Europe and I think it

:49:16. > :49:18.is an important first step hn the right direction and I entitlement

:49:19. > :49:24.that should be afforded to `ll at their time of greatest need. Whilst

:49:25. > :49:29.mothers fathers and families will never forget the children they have

:49:30. > :49:33.lost. Baby loss awareness wdek is a chance for those families to meet

:49:34. > :49:38.other families and share melories in remembrance. A collective sharing of

:49:39. > :49:43.experiences can begin to he`l and alleviate a small part of the pain.

:49:44. > :49:49.The most powerful thing it provides is the opportunity to speak out and

:49:50. > :49:53.to prevent others from softdning the same agony happening to othdr

:49:54. > :49:58.parents across the UK. And we as legislators, must seek to act upon

:49:59. > :50:03.the word spoken here in the house, to create a better environmdnt of

:50:04. > :50:09.support for bereaved familids. And finally, can I pay tribute to my

:50:10. > :50:13.honourable friend, the membdr for Lewisham Deptford for sharing the

:50:14. > :50:17.Chadwick story of her daughter Veronica, I'm in awe of the bravery

:50:18. > :50:20.and the courage that she showed in speaking out today. And the bravery

:50:21. > :50:24.and courage has been echoed in the words of the honourable members for

:50:25. > :50:28.North Ayrshire and Arran, W`shington and Sunderland, the honourable

:50:29. > :50:30.member for Banbury and indedd the two honourable members who have

:50:31. > :50:34.brought this debate to the house today and I thank you very luch for

:50:35. > :50:46.giving me my opportunity to speak, thank you. People have got to stand

:50:47. > :50:52.up, Byron Davies. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker, I'm very gr`teful

:50:53. > :50:56.and it is a great pleasure to participate in this debate today. I

:50:57. > :51:01.want to thank, and congratulate my honourable friends, for Ed hs brief

:51:02. > :51:08.and Colchester for securing and bringing for this incrediblx

:51:09. > :51:13.deportment important debate. And to their work with your Parlialentary

:51:14. > :51:19.party group and other honourable members who have participatdd in it.

:51:20. > :51:25.Can I pay tribute, to the honourable members, for Lewisham and Ddptford

:51:26. > :51:29.and Ayrshire, Aaron and Banbury I have known the honourable mdmber for

:51:30. > :51:33.Ed is brief for quite some time we have been friends, and of course

:51:34. > :51:37.were both members of the National Assembly for Wales. Indeed we used

:51:38. > :51:39.to sit next to each other at the assembly and I witnessed first-hand

:51:40. > :51:45.the terrible loss and devastation that she had when going through her

:51:46. > :51:48.baby loss. It is a testament to her courage and resolve that despite the

:51:49. > :51:54.tragic loss she is highlighting the issue once again, which is `ffecting

:51:55. > :51:59.some of us here today. It t`kes bravery to tackle the silence and

:52:00. > :52:03.Sigma that used to exist, and she was instrumental in tackling this

:52:04. > :52:07.when she was an assembly melber She has also been instrumental hn

:52:08. > :52:10.bringing this issue to the national stage and raising awareness for the

:52:11. > :52:16.tens of thousands of familids who need help and support. In p`ying

:52:17. > :52:20.tribute to the outstanding work she is doing and in the than thd 20 5

:52:21. > :52:26.the Secretary of State launched the national ambition to reduce the

:52:27. > :52:29.rates of stillbirths, neonatal deaths, maternal deaths and brain

:52:30. > :52:39.injuries. That occur during or soon after birth, 15% by 2030 with a

:52:40. > :52:43.shorter name of achieving a 27 cent reduction by 2020, and this no doubt

:52:44. > :52:49.will be in large part to thd excellent work, for the honourable

:52:50. > :52:55.member for Colchester are doing In 2014 there were 3245 stillbhrths,

:52:56. > :53:00.and 2689 infant deaths in England and Wales. The death of a b`by is

:53:01. > :53:05.one of the most traumatic events for a mother and father to go through.

:53:06. > :53:09.And then having to deal with the aftermath of it. The care that their

:53:10. > :53:13.family receive is so vitallx important to try and cope in the

:53:14. > :53:17.long-term with the loss. Th`t is why I am so pleased that this issue is

:53:18. > :53:22.being raised by my honourable friend is because awareness is key to

:53:23. > :53:26.reducing stillbirths and infant mortality but also to tacklhng the

:53:27. > :53:32.stigma surrounding this isste. They can be no greater grief than that of

:53:33. > :53:36.losing a child. It causes psychological conditions th`t last

:53:37. > :53:39.years and even a lifetime. The loss can never truly leave you btt how we

:53:40. > :53:43.care for families and indivhduals can make a huge difference for the

:53:44. > :53:47.future lives of those who h`ve lived with this tragedy. I have bden

:53:48. > :53:52.through it myself, my wife `nd I have a wonderful son, but wd have

:53:53. > :53:58.also lost a child during thd period in the 1980s, where there w`s

:53:59. > :54:05.certainly a stigma on this hssue. You just couldn't talk about it It

:54:06. > :54:08.was to blue. It was almost `n embarrassment to bring it ott in

:54:09. > :54:13.public and we could not discuss the grief and suffering that we felt, or

:54:14. > :54:17.we help to deal with. One of the most traumatic experiences hn our

:54:18. > :54:23.lives. It was a devastating experience and I'm pleased to say

:54:24. > :54:27.that my son who is now 34, his lovely wife Natalie have prdsented

:54:28. > :54:31.us with a grandchild. But h`ving children is one of those marvellous

:54:32. > :54:34.and truly have the experiences for a couple and something that wd

:54:35. > :54:38.cherish. Yet in a moment we can go from one of the happiest life

:54:39. > :54:42.changing experiences to one of the most devastating. You lose ` child,

:54:43. > :54:47.something that you and your loved one would build a life for `nd

:54:48. > :54:53.around, that you look forward to, sports at school, graduation,

:54:54. > :54:57.marriages, in the future, and links to the cherished future, th`t child

:54:58. > :55:00.and happiness is currently taken away. And I member when we

:55:01. > :55:05.experienced this loss, therd was no way to talk about it and all of

:55:06. > :55:11.those feelings had to be bottled up. This never does or never can help

:55:12. > :55:15.with the grieving process. Hndeed, we too were advised, given ledical

:55:16. > :55:20.advice to keep trying. I'm `fraid that was not quite good enotgh at

:55:21. > :55:24.the time. It brings me to the absolutely crucial point, that like

:55:25. > :55:29.with many issues of mental health, that talking about problems, is

:55:30. > :55:34.always a sign of strength, had never one of weakness. It is of course

:55:35. > :55:38.right and vitally important that we have the very best care, cotnselling

:55:39. > :55:42.and services for mothers who have experienced this agonising loss and

:55:43. > :55:45.are treated with kindness, sensitivity and respect in the

:55:46. > :55:48.hospital afterwards. But I `lso think it is crucial that we support

:55:49. > :55:52.fathers who while being strong for the mother and focusing on her knees

:55:53. > :56:00.also has two bear that terrhble loss. We have expense this first

:56:01. > :56:04.hand in my family, there was a great feeling of powerlessness and

:56:05. > :56:07.anguish, when you see a wifd or a mother with no idea of the hssue

:56:08. > :56:11.will the outcome and all yot try to do is start

:56:12. > :56:23.have your own family. You sdem like a bystander with no power to help

:56:24. > :56:27.your loved ones. Therefore we must insure that the NAFTA shall health

:56:28. > :56:35.service, provide counselling, with statutory leave to provide the best

:56:36. > :56:38.support. With this in mind, I fully and wholeheartedly support ly

:56:39. > :56:43.honourable friends for Colchester and my honourable friend, and his

:56:44. > :56:47.parental bereavement leave, which is fundamental to guarantee th`t

:56:48. > :56:51.parents have some time to try to grieve for their loss and I'm sure

:56:52. > :56:55.that for this chance to be given in these to be on a statutory footing.

:56:56. > :57:00.Finally, I want to say that I'm pleased that the apartment of health

:57:01. > :57:04.has conducted a survey, for the bereavement in England to btild up

:57:05. > :57:08.the provision of current provision and identify whether gaps are. It is

:57:09. > :57:14.also crucial in hearing somd good practice, and understanding the

:57:15. > :57:17.challenges, that the governlent is increasing the number of midwives.

:57:18. > :57:21.It is hoped that this will lead to an increase in the number of

:57:22. > :57:26.midwives, who has specialist training. This should be a lesson to

:57:27. > :57:33.all of our devolved governmdnts As we have found, fewer than h`lf of

:57:34. > :57:38.doctors and midwives have found out, it is vital that staff are trained,

:57:39. > :57:42.for the psychological and physical needs of families and to cotnsel

:57:43. > :57:46.them when needed. I hope th`t the government committing going even

:57:47. > :57:50.further than improving mand`tory training, and supporting thd need

:57:51. > :58:03.for statutory lead, for the loss of the most cherished things in our

:58:04. > :58:06.lives, the child. Anna Soubry. Thank you very much indeed man Deputy

:58:07. > :58:11.Speaker, it is or was with care that one treads into an area of life but

:58:12. > :58:18.like many honourable members, Ira member in the 21 or 22 week area of

:58:19. > :58:23.the pregnancy when the marvdllous magical moment of what the books

:58:24. > :58:27.described as a fluttering, `nd you suddenly realise that if yot have

:58:28. > :58:31.experienced it, the actual nightmare of morning sickness, the other

:58:32. > :58:36.afflictions as they are oftdn are, of pregnancy, actually is all about

:58:37. > :58:45.this new life that is there within you. And I suspect, not alone

:58:46. > :58:50.amongst, many honourable melbers of both sexes, that moment when you

:58:51. > :58:55.look into the Moses basket `nd next time you look into it, that bundle

:58:56. > :59:00.of life that you bear, will be in it. And of course, you are dxtremely

:59:01. > :59:04.excited about that, and also the truth is, you are ready rather

:59:05. > :59:11.frightened of this. When it is your first child and you have never had a

:59:12. > :59:17.baby before. And so, I find it absolutely unimaginable, to have

:59:18. > :59:22.experienced as so many in the place has spoken with great courage, what

:59:23. > :59:26.it must be like never to have that Moses basket filled with jox and the

:59:27. > :59:34.child that you have born for well over nine months. I want to warmly

:59:35. > :59:36.congratulate, both my honourable friends, for edits Breanne

:59:37. > :59:40.Colchester not only for sectring this debate but for the gre`t work

:59:41. > :59:50.that they have done. And nobody could have been unaffected `nd not

:59:51. > :59:54.moved, by the incredibly sad story of the honourable lady who

:59:55. > :59:59.represents Lewisham Deptford. And the honourable lady who represents

:00:00. > :00:02.North Ayrshire and Arran. If I may say with no lessening of thd

:00:03. > :00:07.terrible story that we have heard from the honourable lady from North

:00:08. > :00:11.Ayrshire, I think we were all particularly struck by the story of

:00:12. > :00:15.the honourable lady, the experience that she had from Lewisham `nd

:00:16. > :00:20.Deptford, not just with gre`t sorrow. Actually with I had to say,

:00:21. > :00:23.I felt a rise of anger withhn me because I thought it was outrageous

:00:24. > :00:29.what had happened to the honourable lady. I want to be really m`de

:00:30. > :00:37.secure that what happened to her, will never happen again, to anybody,

:00:38. > :00:41.in our society. Obviously I extend that to everybody who was brought to

:00:42. > :00:45.this place by way of their own experiences or their constituents

:00:46. > :00:50.experiences, that we learned the lessons of all of this. We do

:00:51. > :00:53.everything we can, to make sure that firstly babies don't die in the

:00:54. > :00:57.first place and so we don't have the high rates of stillbirth th`t we

:00:58. > :01:03.have heard about, or those that then die in those early months of their

:01:04. > :01:09.life, but it is the treatment, of people, of both parents, th`t must

:01:10. > :01:13.be changed. I want to hold ` spark of hope in my life that what

:01:14. > :01:20.happened to the honourable lember for Lewisham and Deptford, H would

:01:21. > :01:25.like to think it was a one. I like to think that over the pass`ge of

:01:26. > :01:29.time perhaps we could be more confident that it is extremdly rare.

:01:30. > :01:35.That nobody ever suffers wh`t she did, and of course nobody stffers

:01:36. > :01:42.what the honourable Lady suffers as well. I want to make a short

:01:43. > :01:46.contribution. It is really ` bad bereavement suites. It is b`sed

:01:47. > :01:57.entirely on the experience of two of my constituents. One couple have

:01:58. > :02:01.come friends of mine, anybody you heard of their story, there was much

:02:02. > :02:06.sympathy, and real concern, to discover that when their baby Emily

:02:07. > :02:11.was born, at a stillborn birth, where I had both my daughters, I

:02:12. > :02:16.found it quite astonishing `nd dine every body else did that he`rd of

:02:17. > :02:21.their story, back in 2013. That there was no Barizan and swdet. So

:02:22. > :02:26.those honourable members who have talked about this terrible tragedy,

:02:27. > :02:31.there is no greater tragedy than a loss of a child, and there `re no

:02:32. > :02:36.degrees of grief. But to lose a baby in the circumstances, where we are

:02:37. > :02:42.all becoming more aware of. I can't genuinely imagine any greatdr

:02:43. > :02:47.tragedy and loss. And then to have that, it is almost cruel. While the

:02:48. > :02:48.rest of us are celebrating `s we have heard, with balloons and

:02:49. > :02:59.relatives. You with your terrible grief, to

:03:00. > :03:03.have to sit with your loved one whilst all this jollity is going on,

:03:04. > :03:07.because there is no place where you can go and grief. And have xour

:03:08. > :03:13.private last moments with your baby. Before they are properly buried All

:03:14. > :03:17.of these things are done properly. I think that is just appalling. I was

:03:18. > :03:27.horrified to learn from the honourable member who represents

:03:28. > :03:33.Eddsbury, it is still 25% of hospital streets who do not have the

:03:34. > :03:37.bereavement suite. I think when a terrible tragedy happens, whatever

:03:38. > :03:40.that tragedy might become htman beings wants to come togethdr to

:03:41. > :03:47.make good of something that has been wholly horrible. I do not h`ve any

:03:48. > :03:50.difficulty in those circumstances with parents working hand-in-hand

:03:51. > :03:57.with the hospital trust where they do not have a bereavement stite to

:03:58. > :04:00.create such a sweet. The Nottingham University Hospital trust dhd much

:04:01. > :04:12.to make sure that when Rich`rd Michelle Daniels decided th`t they

:04:13. > :04:18.would raise money to do such a sweet, it was a relatively dasy

:04:19. > :04:23.journey. It was a plan to r`ise ?25,000, but within 18 months they

:04:24. > :04:28.raised hundred ?50,000. Thex did it through a variety of fundrahsing

:04:29. > :04:31.methods and after Emily died in 2013, it was with real joy `nd

:04:32. > :04:38.pleasure that they finally opened the serenity suite at the Qteens

:04:39. > :04:45.medical Centre in Nottinghal last year. Sorry, this year in April

:04:46. > :04:53.Such has been their dedicathon to the charity that they founddd, they

:04:54. > :04:57.have been contacted by parents from other parts of the East Midlands

:04:58. > :05:03.Domino to be from Derby, whdre there is no such bereavement suitd. They

:05:04. > :05:06.are now resurrecting the ch`rity and they are embarking on a hugd

:05:07. > :05:11.bereavement suite. I urge them to bereavement suite. I urge them to

:05:12. > :05:15.continue to do that. It is right that parents should be involved in

:05:16. > :05:19.it. But it might equally be right that all those hospital trusts that

:05:20. > :05:22.do not have the treatment stites now absolutely get on with it. They

:05:23. > :05:29.should not have to rely on ` parent who has suffered this terrible loss

:05:30. > :05:32.to spark them into taking action to make sure that these bereavdment

:05:33. > :05:37.seats exist and that they are fully equipped and the staff are fully

:05:38. > :05:41.trained. So my absolute congratulations to all thosd who

:05:42. > :05:45.have spoken and particularlx to those who have laid bare thd worst

:05:46. > :05:49.moments of their lives to ptt them forward so that we can ensure that

:05:50. > :05:53.when we say to the government, and I know that the Minister will be

:05:54. > :05:57.listening to all of this, that this really is an area from all of the

:05:58. > :06:00.things that have been descrhbed and all the way that have been

:06:01. > :06:04.described, this is not just about bereavement suite. It is now really

:06:05. > :06:08.the time for action so that we can be proud as a nation that wd have

:06:09. > :06:12.reduced the number of babies who are born dead or who die within the

:06:13. > :06:15.first months of their infancy, and we do the right thing by thdir

:06:16. > :06:18.parents and by all of them, and we look forward to the future that has

:06:19. > :06:28.been denied for them and thdir child. Thank you. Can I pay tribute

:06:29. > :06:36.to the honourable members for Eddsbury and Colchester. My

:06:37. > :06:39.neighbour made a courageous and gracious speech today, and the

:06:40. > :06:44.honourable member for Colchdster made a powerful and practic`l

:06:45. > :06:49.speech. The number of colle`gues in this house who have shared their

:06:50. > :06:53.personal experiences I think have shown how many people across the

:06:54. > :06:57.country have been affected by this issue. And therefore what potential

:06:58. > :07:01.there is to make a real difference there is to make a real difference

:07:02. > :07:11.in so many people's lives in Newport this issue. -- bringing forward this

:07:12. > :07:16.issue. Can I add my tributes to those of other members of the

:07:17. > :07:24.chamber to the contributions from the other honourable members who

:07:25. > :07:29.have spoken today, they werd truly moving. In fact, I have nevdr in

:07:30. > :07:40.over six years of sitting in this chamber seen so many members so

:07:41. > :07:41.visibly moved. I also want to pay tribute to the many midwives,

:07:42. > :07:47.consultants and other members of consultants and other members of

:07:48. > :07:54.staff in the NHS who did provide good bereavement care to victims of

:07:55. > :07:57.at the most difficult time of their at the most difficult time of their

:07:58. > :08:06.lives means that high-quality epiphytic care is critical. Thanks

:08:07. > :08:11.needs to go to those who work at times so dedicated and with such

:08:12. > :08:17.commitment in this arena. I want to start with a story from my

:08:18. > :08:22.constituent which shows the NHS does in part provide extremely good care

:08:23. > :08:27.but also requires more rigotr. I received a letter from my

:08:28. > :08:33.constituent whose daughter was lost as a baby at 20 weeks. She'd had

:08:34. > :08:37.excellent care from the grand logical consultant and the hospital

:08:38. > :08:39.staff who treated the loss very sensitively. But there were failures

:08:40. > :08:45.in her care. She writes, in her care. She writes,

:08:46. > :08:51.unfortunately, the symptoms leading to the loss of a baby occurred at a

:08:52. > :08:55.weekend. Protocols about sending her straight to the phonological

:08:56. > :08:59.department were not followed. There was a chance the pregnancy light

:09:00. > :09:06.have been saved. Nor were other protocols that so for instant her

:09:07. > :09:12.midwife would have been informed, and rang up later asking whx

:09:13. > :09:18.antenatal appointments were not kept. It geared to get my d`ughter

:09:19. > :09:19.the specialist counselling she needed, and she did not know that

:09:20. > :09:24.she was entitled to maternity leave. she was entitled to maternity leave.

:09:25. > :09:30.It shows that there was a l`ck of joined up communication between the

:09:31. > :09:36.front clinicians, potentially to assist her daughter. I understand

:09:37. > :09:41.hospitals in that area are hmproving the training of staff and stpport

:09:42. > :09:45.for bereaved parents but thhs was in a large city. And in this d`y and

:09:46. > :09:51.age, this should have been better. I do also wants to contribute to this

:09:52. > :09:57.young lady as well, because she is now setting up a new branch of

:09:58. > :10:03.sounds in her area and it h`s been wonderful to hear today how many

:10:04. > :10:09.people from their personal dxpenses, and during the course of assisting

:10:10. > :10:20.others, have put their energies into such organisations. Stillbirth is

:10:21. > :10:25.still almost, but thanks to this debate it will be decreasingly so, a

:10:26. > :10:29.whole family of my constitudnts whole family of my constitudnts

:10:30. > :10:35.says. And wider social and work contact groups. Mothers loshng babys

:10:36. > :10:40.suffer grief, guilt and horlonal suffer grief, guilt and horlonal

:10:41. > :10:45.effects while still trying to hold down jobs. As the mother of the

:10:46. > :10:51.daughter who lost a child, this person says, I found this thme

:10:52. > :10:56.emotionally very hard. Surely, she says, with more openness and

:10:57. > :10:58.appropriate training, our country's shameful record of stillbirths

:10:59. > :11:06.be improved. Mental health of be improved. Mental health of

:11:07. > :11:13.mothers would be improved in meaning that it would be less presstre on

:11:14. > :11:17.the health service. My daughter had a diagnosable infection, if this had

:11:18. > :11:21.been screened on, there would be less babies lost, and this debate

:11:22. > :11:28.called for better screening. Can I also as an adjunct to the mdmber for

:11:29. > :11:31.Colchester, he called for more advice during pregnancy on smoking

:11:32. > :11:43.and be city, -- of the city. advice during pregnancy on smoking

:11:44. > :11:52.and be city, -- of the -- obesity, can I ask that alcohol is added to

:11:53. > :11:56.that. The best advice is th`t alcohol should not be drunk at all

:11:57. > :12:02.Joan pregnancy. Because different mothers react to it very

:12:03. > :12:11.differently. There has been inadequate publicity over that

:12:12. > :12:17.regulation which I welcome because there has been decades of confusing

:12:18. > :12:20.advice ever that topic. One or two other points I would like to refer

:12:21. > :12:25.to, which have been mentiondd already that I would like to add to

:12:26. > :12:29.add my support. And then a final issue I would like to mention which

:12:30. > :12:37.is still to do which we havd to briefly address. Today a qu`rter of

:12:38. > :12:42.a million miscarriages occur every year and it is not only the women

:12:43. > :12:48.who feel the loss but also fathers, grandparent and the wider f`mily who

:12:49. > :12:54.grieve. They need help as wdll. Now, statistics cannot compare whth the

:12:55. > :12:58.power of personal experiencd such as those we have heard today. But to

:12:59. > :13:05.frame some of the goblins encountered by women who miscarry,

:13:06. > :13:08.-- the problems encountered, I have been aware of the survey of 300

:13:09. > :13:12.women carried out by the miscarriage Association who found that 45% of

:13:13. > :13:17.the women date survey did not feel well informed about what was

:13:18. > :13:23.happening to them physicallx. Only 29% felt well care for emothonally.

:13:24. > :13:30.And nearly four out of five received no after-care at all. They noted

:13:31. > :13:35.that access to information `nd emotional support has been shown

:13:36. > :13:40.time and time again to help people cope with the experience of loss but

:13:41. > :13:44.this needs to be made avail`ble later if needed. They also noted

:13:45. > :13:49.that sometimes it was not always important what was said to reading

:13:50. > :13:53.women, but it was just enough that someone was listening that was

:13:54. > :13:56.and hearing so many individtal and hearing so many individtal

:13:57. > :14:00.experiences, I hope that we in the experiences, I hope that we in the

:14:01. > :14:05.House will show to the nation that we are listening and we card.

:14:06. > :14:09.Speaking out about the issud which is also being raised, which is how

:14:10. > :14:14.an unborn child is treated before an unborn child is treated before

:14:15. > :14:18.the 24 week stage, as we have hurt when a woman has had a misc`rriage,

:14:19. > :14:27.she can be at an extremely vulnerable state. As my constituent

:14:28. > :14:32.said, women may well offer not be in hospital, in fact only 18% of

:14:33. > :14:38.miscarriages occur in hospital. The hospital is going to ring up the

:14:39. > :14:42.hospital -- the mother is going to ring up the hospital with advice

:14:43. > :14:49.what to do, particularly on what to do with their miscarried chhld. I'm

:14:50. > :14:56.extremely concerned to hear that someone from trust set up to

:14:57. > :15:00.experience baby loss has told Mike office recently that she sthll

:15:01. > :15:06.who have been given the advhce to who have been given the advhce to

:15:07. > :15:13.put the miscarried foetuses in a jar put the miscarried foetuses in a jar

:15:14. > :15:17.in the fridge. This is extrdmely distressing and traumatising for

:15:18. > :15:21.families. Some women have h`d to buy a new fridge after such events

:15:22. > :15:26.because it has upset them so much. Hospital mortuary 's need to be

:15:27. > :15:32.available for the foetus of the unborn child to be properly taken to

:15:33. > :15:33.and stored. At the advice of parents, and the staff taking such

:15:34. > :15:41.calls me to have training across the calls me to have training across the

:15:42. > :15:45.board to be away with this. -- aware of this. More trees need to be open

:15:46. > :15:50.seven days a week and it is important that the directivd is

:15:51. > :15:55.coming from government and ht is not left to trusts to come up whth their

:15:56. > :16:01.own systems as it is clearlx unsatisfactory. I know the hssue has

:16:02. > :16:07.been raised about stillbirths and people having to be in wards with

:16:08. > :16:10.celebrating families, but there is also the issue of women who have

:16:11. > :16:19.suffered miscarriage and often the early care pregnancy is in one unit

:16:20. > :16:25.and certainly, when... When I had a miscarriage at 16 weeks, I had to

:16:26. > :16:31.sit next to women who had scanned photographs. It was very, vdry

:16:32. > :16:38.difficult. And it is somethhng that has to be considered more sdriously

:16:39. > :16:44.by medical staff. She makes an extremely good point. It is

:16:45. > :16:48.absolutely vital that we support women in appropriate circumstances

:16:49. > :16:50.members have mentioned. Womdn who members have mentioned. Womdn who

:16:51. > :16:55.have lost their babies but need to have lost their babies but need to

:16:56. > :17:02.go through labour, the issud of a separate award should be a priority.

:17:03. > :17:06.They may be in labour for sdveral days, and to hear other womdn around

:17:07. > :17:12.with their babies must be so distressing. Hospitals need to

:17:13. > :17:17.create better spaces for wolen at all stages in their pregnancies I

:17:18. > :17:24.permission, some of my own permission, some of my own

:17:25. > :17:27.experience on that note, I was as I told the House earlier, in hospital

:17:28. > :17:33.for some considerable time because I had been very ill. After I was in

:17:34. > :17:36.ward, postnatal ward with pdople ward, postnatal ward with pdople

:17:37. > :17:38.with babies. I was in a sep`rate room but I had to share the bathroom

:17:39. > :17:43.and the midwives and all thd staff and the midwives and all thd staff

:17:44. > :17:50.with mothers with live babids. And I found it terribly difficult when

:17:51. > :17:54.people came in, nice people bringing you cups of tea and food, bringing

:17:55. > :17:58.you all sorts of things that have not been told and people repeatedly

:17:59. > :18:06.asked me where the baby was. Which was so distressing. My heart goes

:18:07. > :18:07.out to the honourable member. How unnecessary, added grief is being

:18:08. > :18:18.compounded in such situations. Families have lost babies speaking

:18:19. > :18:24.about the knowledge and for their child's life. And unfortunately

:18:25. > :18:31.this is an area where the l`w adds to the distressed to. Because under

:18:32. > :18:36.current UK law, babies are effectively considered a person at

:18:37. > :18:40.24 weeks, this means that often that acknowledgement is not therd as it

:18:41. > :18:44.could be. I have even heard of parents lying about the gestation

:18:45. > :18:49.period in order to try and obtain a birth certificate, and I do add my

:18:50. > :18:54.appeal to that of other honourable members, to ask ministers to look

:18:55. > :18:58.again particularly at the f`ct that obviously now, as modern technology

:18:59. > :19:08.has improved, unborn babies are increasingly viable, the law should

:19:09. > :19:13.move not only with technology, and I would ask ministers to look at this

:19:14. > :19:21.too. This one last point I would like to mention, it is very

:19:22. > :19:24.sensitive. There is this to boo I mentioned earlier, as one colleague

:19:25. > :19:30.also said earlier in this ddbate, if there is one thing that we can do in

:19:31. > :19:34.this house, it is to break taboos. And this is the fact that p`rents

:19:35. > :19:40.can also suffer a deep sensd of loss and bereavement. When their long

:19:41. > :19:47.fall child is not lost during pregnancy, during a miscarrhage but

:19:48. > :19:56.due to a disability being dhagnosed while their child is in the room

:19:57. > :20:01.leading them to have a heartbreaking condition for a termination

:20:02. > :20:04.sometimes in pregnancy. There is little if any brief in support or

:20:05. > :20:11.adequate counselling before they make that decision or somethme after

:20:12. > :20:17.for such parents. Yet they too have lost a much loved child. In 201 ,

:20:18. > :20:27.the pro-life all-party group conducted a detailed year-long

:20:28. > :20:32.Inquiry, into it. We were rdpeatedly told by witnesses about the lack of

:20:33. > :20:38.proper counselling and bere`ved and care for such parents, should they

:20:39. > :20:44.want it. Which many do. We were also told of some very good examples and

:20:45. > :20:47.practice, one parent talked about they had a funeral service that

:20:48. > :20:56.helped enormously. Another told of how, they were able to bathd their

:20:57. > :21:02.child before the child was then appropriately cared for following

:21:03. > :21:08.the termination. But other witnesses were amazed, that this kind of care

:21:09. > :21:12.was available because they had had none at all. One of our key

:21:13. > :21:16.recommendations in our report was that appropriate breed Mintdrn

:21:17. > :21:21.support and counselling shotld be available for all parents who wanted

:21:22. > :21:27.it in such situations, even if it is sometime later. I regret to say and

:21:28. > :21:30.I'm following slightly in the footsteps of the honourable member

:21:31. > :21:35.for Mid Sussex, who spoke e`rlier about the uphill struggle. Have had

:21:36. > :21:40.an uphill struggle in trying to gain the attention of the Departlent of

:21:41. > :21:44.Health about this issue. And I do thank the honourable members who

:21:45. > :21:48.have raised their losses, in this debate, because I hope now that the

:21:49. > :21:56.Department of Health will consider this, that report was issued in

:21:57. > :22:00.2013. After an adjournment debate, which was led by the honour`ble

:22:01. > :22:07.members for Colchester and headers be which I have referred to. I was

:22:08. > :22:11.deeply moved, I spoke to thd then Minister, that I would send this

:22:12. > :22:17.report to the Department of Health after that debate which I dhd.

:22:18. > :22:22.Unfortunately I received no reply. I sent a reminder sometime later, I

:22:23. > :22:26.received no reply after that at all. I do hope that as a result of

:22:27. > :22:30.today's debate, the Departmdnt of Health will take Cirrus leave this

:22:31. > :22:34.additional point, that parents in this situation too, have thd same

:22:35. > :22:44.kind of care and support as others who have been spoken about hn this

:22:45. > :22:47.debate today. Can I first apologise because I had hoped to be there at

:22:48. > :22:57.the beginning of the debate but we had a 3.5 hour meeting, due to poor

:22:58. > :23:02.chairmanship it dragged on, the chairman was me. I want to picture

:23:03. > :23:06.but to the hard work of the members for edits Briand Colchester, I was

:23:07. > :23:12.lucky to have caught the spdech another very emotional speech. One

:23:13. > :23:17.of many emotional speeches, in an extraordinary well-informed debate,

:23:18. > :23:23.that we have had this afternoon showing the house I think at its

:23:24. > :23:27.best. But also showing some quite extraordinary systemic insensitivity

:23:28. > :23:33.is within the health system. That can only make a tragic outcome even

:23:34. > :23:44.worse for those parents expdriencing the grief of baby lot. And surely,

:23:45. > :23:52.and we must do so much bettdr. This is a big and a partly hidden

:23:53. > :23:58.problem. The rates of pre-and postnatal mortality in this country,

:23:59. > :24:04.are appalling and shameful. We rank forestalled births 33 out of 35

:24:05. > :24:15.developed nations in the world. One in every 200 babies dies as a result

:24:16. > :24:20.of stillbirth in the UK. 15 times the rate of mortality for cot

:24:21. > :24:24.deaths, an area where we have made huge progress, but also worrying if

:24:25. > :24:30.one looks at the statistics and we have had many statistics so I won't

:24:31. > :24:34.quote more. There is a 25% variance between mortality rates in different

:24:35. > :24:37.parts of the country and th`t is a cause for great concern in htself.

:24:38. > :24:41.We need to do better as a n`tion but certainly we need to be doing much

:24:42. > :24:46.better for certain parts of the country that do not deserve to be

:24:47. > :24:49.lagging behind so far in thd progress that has been made in other

:24:50. > :24:54.parts of the country. It is down to a whole host of reasons that we have

:24:55. > :25:00.heard here, there is poor monitoring, patchy monitoring during

:25:01. > :25:04.pregnancy. There are in parts of the country shortages of midwivds.

:25:05. > :25:10.Specialist midwives. At the end of the day, 4.9 out of every thousand

:25:11. > :25:15.live births, are stillborn. And that figure must come down because it

:25:16. > :25:19.stayed stubbornly high for too many years. So I welcomed the plddge from

:25:20. > :25:24.the Secretary of State for Health earlier in this year in March. When

:25:25. > :25:28.he pledged, that we would sdek to halve the number of maternal and

:25:29. > :25:33.baby deaths by 2013, which hf successful would save some 0500 more

:25:34. > :25:38.lives every year. I welcome the progress that has been made in

:25:39. > :25:43.giving out information, it has been produced to give to all expdctant

:25:44. > :25:51.mothers by week 24. That is too late and for reasons that I will come

:25:52. > :25:55.onto, we need to do better. I pay tribute to the work that has been

:25:56. > :26:05.done on smoking, it is a catse of serious AAB loss. It is attributed

:26:06. > :26:11.to 2200 preterm births, 5000 miscarriages and 300 perinatal

:26:12. > :26:15.deaths. By a self induced poison of smoking and smoking excessively in

:26:16. > :26:23.too many cases during pregn`ncy There has been progress, on the full

:26:24. > :26:28.alcohol Spectrum disorder and the all-party group, produced a report

:26:29. > :26:32.on this recently, we have bden visiting hospitals with the charity

:26:33. > :26:37.that promotes this subject. To give clearer and better advice and

:26:38. > :26:42.high-profile advice to women about what is acceptable and potentially

:26:43. > :26:45.harmful, about these alcohol during pregnancy as well. Progress has been

:26:46. > :26:51.made but a lot more needs to be made. I contrast the lack of

:26:52. > :26:58.progress, on baby loss, with the great progress that has been made on

:26:59. > :27:03.deaths through cot deaths, very high profile campaign, some decades ago

:27:04. > :27:11.now, and that heady huge and very quick effect, now the brief we have

:27:12. > :27:16.had together for short lives. Mentions the appalling figures on

:27:17. > :27:21.Griezmann support and we have heard that, 17% of CCG 's do not

:27:22. > :27:26.commission support, 68% of local authorities do not commission

:27:27. > :27:28.bereavement support, it doesn't just happen in medical environments but

:27:29. > :27:34.home when you're coming into contact with other council services. It just

:27:35. > :27:40.doesn't happen in two thirds of local authorities. But therd is also

:27:41. > :27:44.the psychological bereavement support in the neonatal services or

:27:45. > :27:48.rather the lack of it, and, the bliss figures show that 41% of

:27:49. > :27:53.neonatal unit say that parents have no access to a trained ment`l health

:27:54. > :27:57.worker, 30% of neonatal units say that parents have no access to any

:27:58. > :28:00.psychological support at all. And one third of them that look after

:28:01. > :28:05.the smallest and sickest baby say that their parents have no `ccess to

:28:06. > :28:10.a trade paid mental health worker. This is not just about a bit of tea

:28:11. > :28:15.and sympathy, from harm trahned bereavement support, this is about

:28:16. > :28:17.ongoing trauma. We have heard from the honourable member from

:28:18. > :28:22.Colchester for whom this tr`gedy happened many years ago, th`t is

:28:23. > :28:26.still there. This is not solething that leaves you, that you grow out

:28:27. > :28:32.of when you leave the hospital or when you have fortunately a healthy

:28:33. > :28:37.baby, that this disappears. It doesn't, people deal with it in

:28:38. > :28:43.different ways, and different successes or not. Those counselling

:28:44. > :28:46.services need to be available. The figures for perinatal mental illness

:28:47. > :28:51.are appalling in this country. One in six women will suffer from some

:28:52. > :28:57.form of mental illness, those are the women who are fortunate enough,

:28:58. > :29:02.to go through a healthy babx birth, and we all know the impact that will

:29:03. > :29:06.have on attachment dysfuncthon with that child, and all of the problems

:29:07. > :29:11.that child growing up withott a proper good-quality attachmdnt with

:29:12. > :29:20.his or her primary carer. And we know the cost of not getting that

:29:21. > :29:24.right, as the report, has s`id. It is ?23 billion in each and dvery

:29:25. > :29:29.year. It is a hugely full shck on the wine and she let alone socially

:29:30. > :29:33.not to be doing more about this at those very early stages. Thdre are

:29:34. > :29:37.many charities and we have heard some good examples of charities that

:29:38. > :29:44.step in and help on this front. Particularly with that after

:29:45. > :29:50.support. As my honourable friend mentioned earlier, this isn't just

:29:51. > :29:55.up to the NHS, there is a vdry good charity that has approached me, that

:29:56. > :29:59.provides free comfort, to bdreaved parents to support the ment`l health

:30:00. > :30:05.and healing after the loss of a baby during pregnancy. But,

:30:06. > :30:08.significantly, the bears th`t they give out is a gift from another

:30:09. > :30:12.family that has experience the loss of the baby, so the parents know

:30:13. > :30:16.that they are not alone. And each bear has a label attached whth the

:30:17. > :30:20.information about the charity and signpost to other charities, and all

:30:21. > :30:24.that is relevant to them. Thank goodness there are charities doing

:30:25. > :30:29.work like this, but frankly it shouldn't be down to them to be

:30:30. > :30:36.relied upon, to produce somd pretty basic essential health and social

:30:37. > :30:41.welfare care, to mums and d`ds, add the relevant point in their lives. I

:30:42. > :30:46.just want to Major, on and H thought I would be upstaged by my honourable

:30:47. > :30:52.friend, the member for Conn`ughton, by resurrecting my private lembers

:30:53. > :30:57.bill, the registration of stillbirths bill, which I l`unched

:30:58. > :31:05.in his house on the 14th of January 2014 with cross-party support. I

:31:06. > :31:08.just want to reheat some of its contents, it hasn't come to law

:31:09. > :31:12.surprise surprise but I think it is just as essential and it shows why,

:31:13. > :31:17.this is something that we could do without the advances of medhcal

:31:18. > :31:22.science, without huge cost but could have a huge impact on giving some

:31:23. > :31:26.comfort and closure, to the many thousands of our constituents that

:31:27. > :31:30.go through some of the can sit things that we have heard too today.

:31:31. > :31:35.So I brought in a private mdmbers bill which would have amenddd the

:31:36. > :31:38.births and deaths registrathon act 1953 to provide the parents, to

:31:39. > :31:43.register the death of a child still born before the threshold of 24

:31:44. > :31:51.weeks of gestation. Arbitrary, 4 weeks. If you happen to havd given

:31:52. > :31:56.birth to a stillborn trialldd after 23 weeks, six days, and 23 hours,

:31:57. > :32:01.that child never existed in the eyes of the state. That child is to all

:32:02. > :32:05.intents and purposes a misc`rriage. If that child had clung on for an

:32:06. > :32:11.other couple of hours of behng stillborn and gone beyond that 4

:32:12. > :32:16.week threshold, it would be a child in the eyes of the state. That is an

:32:17. > :32:23.extraordinary anomaly in thd law that we need to address. So some

:32:24. > :32:26.experience as we have heard, lost through miscarriage, some ghve birth

:32:27. > :32:30.routinely but express the p`in of losing a child within days, weeks or

:32:31. > :32:34.months and Sunday through all of the trials and tribulations of

:32:35. > :32:41.pregnancy, only to give birth to a stillborn child. That is thd target,

:32:42. > :32:46.of my bill, to help those p`rents. We have heard of the problels, we

:32:47. > :32:50.still have. But I think the situation is made worse for those

:32:51. > :32:57.parents that have stillborn children for 24 weeks.

:32:58. > :33:02.Because of that arbitrary fhgure. Because of it, there are no central

:33:03. > :33:07.records on exactly how many figures are born in that way so thex do not

:33:08. > :33:11.form part of the mortality figures. So the position we have been talking

:33:12. > :33:15.about in stillbirth is even worse than we appreciate because of those

:33:16. > :33:19.born before 24 weeks. Withott wishing in any way to downplay the

:33:20. > :33:23.importance and pain of a miscarriage, particularly for new

:33:24. > :33:27.parents struggling to have their first child, those experiences are

:33:28. > :33:31.different. That was brought home to me most starkly by the storx of a

:33:32. > :33:36.constituent of mine Hayley who came to see me back in 2013, campaigning

:33:37. > :33:40.for the change is a law that I then took up. Hayley was pregnant and for

:33:41. > :33:47.nearly 20 weeks, she carried a child nearly 20 weeks, she carried a child

:33:48. > :33:51.of her and her partner. She felt the baby kicking, she went to all the

:33:52. > :33:54.other ups and downs of a first-time pregnancy. Sadly after 19 wdeks

:33:55. > :33:59.something went wrong and thd baby died unborn. It was not a

:34:00. > :34:03.miscarriage, and the followhng week Hayley had to go through thd pain of

:34:04. > :34:08.giving birth to a baby that she knew was no longer alive. She had to take

:34:09. > :34:13.powerful drugs to induce a pregnancy, she explains

:34:14. > :34:21.contractions, she went into Worthing Hospital and had pain relief,

:34:22. > :34:25.Worthing Hospital is the safest maternity unit in the country and we

:34:26. > :34:34.are very proud of it. Many thousands of my constituents marched to save

:34:35. > :34:40.it in 2008 as the PCT idiothcally did not think we needed it. Despite

:34:41. > :34:44.having the oldest population of the country if not the universe in

:34:45. > :34:45.start of life facilities in Worthing start of life facilities in

:34:46. > :34:52.and we aren't thankful for that -- and we aren't thankful for that --

:34:53. > :34:57.we are grateful for that. The following day Hayley gave bhrth to

:34:58. > :34:58.her baby, Samuel, she gave him a name, she held sandal in her arms

:34:59. > :35:03.and she and her partner took and she and her partner took

:35:04. > :35:09.photographs, had his hand and foot prints taken and said their

:35:10. > :35:12.goodbyes. Fortunately she w`s given good supplier by the clinic`l staff

:35:13. > :35:19.and they had good bereavements guidance. She had an understanding

:35:20. > :35:22.employer and she found a sylpathetic funeral director and a funeral took

:35:23. > :35:26.place two weeks later. To all intents and purposes, Haylex with

:35:27. > :35:29.her partner went to all the expenses of policy and the pain of childbirth

:35:30. > :35:33.enjoyed by any other mother. But they were coupled in this c`se with

:35:34. > :35:37.the unimaginable grief of a parent who has just lost a child bdfore

:35:38. > :35:41.they could ever get to know him She did not just go through stillbirth,

:35:42. > :35:47.she had a still baby. She bdcame a mum. The crucial difference is that

:35:48. > :35:51.Hayley and Fraser's baby is not recognised in the eyes of the state.

:35:52. > :35:57.Because she was born before 24 weeks gestation. As I say, if she had been

:35:58. > :36:01.born, if he had been born after 24 weeks and one day come he would have

:36:02. > :36:09.been recognised and the death properly registered as a sthllbirth

:36:10. > :36:13.forming the statistics. It would have been an acknowledgement of an

:36:14. > :36:18.actual individual life, and to add further insult to injury, H`yley had

:36:19. > :36:26.to hand back her maternity dxemption certificate straight after going

:36:27. > :36:30.back through this experiencd. When I mentioned this bill, I got ` wave of

:36:31. > :36:32.experiences, extraordinary `nd tragic experiences from mums and

:36:33. > :36:39.dads around the country, including one where a woman had twins and one

:36:40. > :36:43.of the twins was born stillborn before 24 weeks and the othdr twins

:36:44. > :36:52.survived and was born stillborn tragically after judge for weeks but

:36:53. > :36:57.she only had one maybe -- b`by in the eyes of the law. How absurd is

:36:58. > :37:02.that? That is why the law ndeds to be changed. That stark diffdrence

:37:03. > :37:07.cannot be right. It adds insult to the unimaginable pain that the

:37:08. > :37:11.parents have already had to suffer. Until the passing of the sthllbirth

:37:12. > :37:14.definition act of 1992, the threshold was 28 weeks, and bragged

:37:15. > :37:20.unrecognised in official -- prior to unrecognised in official -- prior to

:37:21. > :37:25.that even more babies went unrecognised in official records.

:37:26. > :37:28.That followed a change in the official medical advice of where

:37:29. > :37:33.babies were viable, and since then babies have been born beford 24

:37:34. > :37:39.weeks and survived. It is true that there is an informal procedtre for

:37:40. > :37:43.hospitals to offer commemor`tive certificates for babies that are not

:37:44. > :37:53.classified as stillbirth, it records the birth before 24 -- 24 wdeks and

:37:54. > :37:55.Sands has produced a template for this certificate. However it is

:37:56. > :38:00.unofficial and still counts for nothing in the eyes of the state.

:38:01. > :38:05.Since I did that Bill, therd has Since I did that Bill, therd has

:38:06. > :38:11.been a happy ending cos Hayley and Fraser had a bonny baby daughter

:38:12. > :38:17.called Bonnie. And she is wdll and healthy I am delighted to s`y. My

:38:18. > :38:22.recognition and registration of recognition and registration of

:38:23. > :38:26.stillborn babies below 24 wdeks gestation, it would be not be based

:38:27. > :38:30.on a crude time threshold of what is deemed a viable foetus but on the

:38:31. > :38:33.experience of giving birth. Hayley and Fraser's baby would be

:38:34. > :38:36.recognised as having existed, Samuel's death would have bden

:38:37. > :38:41.registered and that would go some way to providing some comfort to

:38:42. > :38:47.parents such as Hayley and Fraser in and unimaginable the painful time.

:38:48. > :38:58.I'm grateful he has taken intervention. The issues around

:38:59. > :39:01.registration and that line of between miscarriage and stillbirth

:39:02. > :39:09.is something that was brought up by parents in the digital debate that

:39:10. > :39:13.we had lined on Monday. And the difficulty of parents having to go

:39:14. > :39:22.to a registry office to reghster the birth and death with parents there

:39:23. > :39:26.with babies having to explahn that to a registrar, it is very

:39:27. > :39:30.distressing. I think the Liverpool women's Hospital has the abhlity to

:39:31. > :39:33.do those registrations in the hospital and the Minister m`y want

:39:34. > :39:40.to look at that good practice. I very much support what my honourable

:39:41. > :39:45.friend as saying. The soluthon to this are not rocket science quite

:39:46. > :39:48.frankly. A bit more sensitivity and common sense would go a long way to

:39:49. > :39:56.alleviating an awful lot of pain and trauma. So my suggestion, mx bill, a

:39:57. > :40:01.variation of my bill, would go some way to providing some comfort to

:40:02. > :40:06.parents such as Hayley and Fraser at this time. It will also provide more

:40:07. > :40:09.data to aid the analysis of why stillbirth happen and what can be

:40:10. > :40:13.done to jump-start a resumption in the falling numbers from thd last

:40:14. > :40:18.decade's plateau. For those who say that the physical act of registering

:40:19. > :40:25.a child alongside those reghstering a healthy birth could open tp wounds

:40:26. > :40:32.and exacerbating the grief of the parents, I assure a discreet process

:40:33. > :40:40.could be devised. This has nothing to do with the law of aborthon or

:40:41. > :40:44.maternity benefits, although I think official recognition would lake it

:40:45. > :40:48.easier to secure appropriatd flexibly from employers. Thd

:40:49. > :40:54.government have already madd changes to maternity guidance so th`t

:40:55. > :40:56.mothers whose babies are born after two to four weeks get the bdnefits

:40:57. > :41:02.they are entitled to it -- to four they are entitled to it -- to four

:41:03. > :41:08.weeks are entitled to benefhts and they get them easier. The bhll is

:41:09. > :41:12.going slowly, I am grateful to the former member for Ipswich whth his

:41:13. > :41:17.clinical experience he recognised the problems in this area. He worked

:41:18. > :41:20.with me and with other royal colleges and we had a stillbirth

:41:21. > :41:24.roundtable at Richmond housd at the roundtable at Richmond housd at the

:41:25. > :41:29.beginning of 2015 involving the world courage of obstetrici`ns and

:41:30. > :41:34.gynaecologists, midwifes, S`nds the NHS England and everyone relevant.

:41:35. > :41:42.And I think we found a way `head because this is a hugely context

:41:43. > :41:49.area, not easy to sole. A ndw law came in in New South Wales hn

:41:50. > :41:55.Australia where they issued a formal recognition of a certificatd which

:41:56. > :42:03.of loss Certificate. If we had of loss Certificate. If we had

:42:04. > :42:06.something like that we could get back on track with this problem

:42:07. > :42:11.This is something that should not happen. This is something that

:42:12. > :42:16.medical technology and innovation is not required to solve. It is

:42:17. > :42:21.something that will not be subject to the restraints and constraint of

:42:22. > :42:25.funding, we may have or not within the National Health Service. It is

:42:26. > :42:29.just a bit of common sense `dmin, but a really important bit of common

:42:30. > :42:34.sense admin, facility who h`s had to go through that dramatic experience.

:42:35. > :42:38.So in paying tribute to the extraordinary testimonies wd have

:42:39. > :42:41.had today for people far more experts and people who have had far

:42:42. > :42:45.more first-hand experience that massively I have not had, c`n I

:42:46. > :42:48.gently ask the minister if he will put this back on the agenda as part

:42:49. > :42:54.of improving the whole issud of baby of improving the whole issud of baby

:42:55. > :42:57.loss because I think we could do an awful lot of good for an awful lot

:42:58. > :43:04.of our constituents if we c`n just get this one simple thing done

:43:05. > :43:11.properly. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. First of all correct start

:43:12. > :43:14.by congratulating the Honourable members for Eddisbury and Colchester

:43:15. > :43:17.for securing this debate and I pay tribute to their courage and

:43:18. > :43:24.speaking soap meets -- memorably about their personal experidnces. I

:43:25. > :43:30.think it is great character that they have done all they can to get

:43:31. > :43:35.help for others and hearing from other members and their

:43:36. > :43:43.constituents. I would like to commend the work they have done

:43:44. > :43:46.along with others forming the group on baby loss which has made an

:43:47. > :43:49.important contribution both addressing baby loss and offering

:43:50. > :43:52.this happens. What this is the first this happens. What this is the first

:43:53. > :43:57.time we have discussed baby loss in the main chamber, this is the third

:43:58. > :44:01.occasion that I have responded to a debate on this in the last xear I

:44:02. > :44:05.think each occasion has shown the House at its absolute best. I would

:44:06. > :44:08.just like to take a few minttes to go through some of the very

:44:09. > :44:12.compelling contribution to have had from Honourable members tod`y.

:44:13. > :44:17.Beginning with the honourable member from Eddisbury, she has talked about

:44:18. > :44:21.how there was a lack of recognition that having a miscarriage c`n

:44:22. > :44:27.increase feelings of loneliness and isolation. I am sorry to he`r that

:44:28. > :44:30.the lack of understanding pdople have had when they have been cocked

:44:31. > :44:35.miscarriage, I know from my own miscarriage, I know from my own

:44:36. > :44:38.experience there is an opponent propensity to -- there is an

:44:39. > :44:43.intensity to put miscarriagd down as one of those things, and we have

:44:44. > :44:45.heard that today. The honourable member made very powerful comments

:44:46. > :44:50.that most parents just want to make sure that whatever has happdned does

:44:51. > :44:53.not happen again. I think there is a recognition that too often numbers

:44:54. > :44:56.of members have talked about this, parents feel they do not have the

:44:57. > :45:02.answer is that they need. The statistic that she revealed that 25%

:45:03. > :45:04.of maternity hospitals do not have proven suite is disappointing and I

:45:05. > :45:13.feel we have heard that timd and again today how various members feel

:45:14. > :45:17.that has been a welcome devdlopment in lots of maternity units. I know

:45:18. > :45:21.from the ones I have visited up and down the country what a valtable

:45:22. > :45:28.contribution those sweet have made. They are often coming from local

:45:29. > :45:31.fundraising after tragic circumstances but they often have

:45:32. > :45:36.significant input from parents who have suffered grief themselves and I

:45:37. > :45:41.hope we should all agree we came to get one in every maternity tnit I

:45:42. > :45:44.think one hour of bream and training for midwifes is not enough `nd the

:45:45. > :45:50.issue of training support c`me through -- bereavement training And

:45:51. > :45:54.there is plenty of good practice that we should spread across the

:45:55. > :45:57.country. Her comment about ` treatment pathway is a very

:45:58. > :46:06.important pathway treatment pathway is a very

:46:07. > :46:11.important and I know that S`nds is doing some good work there. The

:46:12. > :46:13.honourable member for Colchdster spoke from his personal expdrience

:46:14. > :46:18.with great passion and knowledge about what he believes should be

:46:19. > :46:21.done, he is right that nobody who suffers a bereavement have to go

:46:22. > :46:25.back onto a maternity ward. He was right to say that there are far

:46:26. > :46:30.that we have bereavement suhte that we have bereavement suhte

:46:31. > :46:34.more work to understand why there more work to understand why there

:46:35. > :46:36.are such disparities across the regions and different ethnic groups

:46:37. > :46:44.as to why some of these sittations occur. I think the point yot made

:46:45. > :46:51.that a mother can centred something is not right is very powerftl and we

:46:52. > :46:54.should always stress that it is important to seek medical advice if

:46:55. > :47:00.there is any doubt. He is rhght that every stillbirth is something that

:47:01. > :47:04.we should learn from and evdry neonatal death is something that we

:47:05. > :47:08.should learn from. We need consistency across the bere`vement

:47:09. > :47:12.pathway, right across the NHS. I wish him success with his private

:47:13. > :47:17.members bill on bereavement leave, we know the odds of those stcceeding

:47:18. > :47:21.are not great but perhaps the comments that have been madd today

:47:22. > :47:24.in no doubt the eloquent case he will make in support of the bill

:47:25. > :47:29.will persuade the government to bring forward legislation of their

:47:30. > :47:36.own. My honourable friend the member for Hayward spoke with her dxponent

:47:37. > :47:40.of the health service, she gave some experiences of best practicd but

:47:41. > :47:47.also told of the struggle of some of her constituents trying to get

:47:48. > :47:56.answers over the death of hdr daughter. The honourable melber for

:47:57. > :47:59.Mid Sussex talked about the cause of infection and one baby at a

:48:00. > :48:08.developer infection, it is shocking that that that statistic is out

:48:09. > :48:19.there as it is preventable. He also mentioned childhood/ and I look

:48:20. > :48:22.forward to hearing more on that The honourable member who bravely told

:48:23. > :48:25.us about Kenneth who would have been seven on Saturday, she made the

:48:26. > :48:28.point that very often peopld do not know what to say in the

:48:29. > :48:32.circumstances that she found herself in so they say nothing at all. One

:48:33. > :48:37.can help that the more membdrs talk about these issues, the mord those

:48:38. > :48:41.situations will cease to happen She also said the response that she had

:48:42. > :48:45.that it was just one of those things was just not good enough. Btt she

:48:46. > :48:50.talked about the culture of secrecy and the pulling down of shutters

:48:51. > :49:01.that cannot help bereaved p`rents looking for answers.

:49:02. > :49:08.She talked about her campaign to get Hull City Council to conduct an

:49:09. > :49:12.integrating quarry, and widdspread practice which was initiallx

:49:13. > :49:16.successful, she is right to be furious about the U-turn th`t has

:49:17. > :49:20.taken place without any consultation warning and we certainly support her

:49:21. > :49:26.campaign to have that Inquiry reinstated and we hope that the

:49:27. > :49:30.Secretary of State, will look into this and make representations to the

:49:31. > :49:35.Secretary of State for Justhce. The young member for Banbury, t`lked

:49:36. > :49:38.about her experiences, the public's interaction with services is that

:49:39. > :49:43.people have to tell their story again and again and again, that is

:49:44. > :49:46.widespread across many publhc services. She stressed the

:49:47. > :49:49.importance of relationship counselling, and very least, the

:49:50. > :49:52.evaluation of how the treatlent affected. She spoke with grdat

:49:53. > :49:56.knowledge about the importance of getting cremation right, I was

:49:57. > :50:00.pleased to hear that there hs now a working group looking at thdse

:50:01. > :50:04.issues and I think it is a very positive development. The honourable

:50:05. > :50:15.member for Gallas said, that awareness

:50:16. > :50:19.was the key to tackling this issue, he spoke with great sincerity about

:50:20. > :50:21.he and his wife felt that they couldn't speak about their loss

:50:22. > :50:24.such was the stigma surrounding that. He was right that the medical

:50:25. > :50:26.advice, was simply just not acceptable. The honourable lember

:50:27. > :50:28.for Brock Stowe talked about her constituents, talking about the fact

:50:29. > :50:32.that there was no bereaved `nd sweet. She described it as `lmost

:50:33. > :50:35.cruel that they have to be hn close proximity to those who have had a

:50:36. > :50:40.successful birth and we can understand where that comes from.

:50:41. > :50:43.The honourable member for Congleton highlighted the experience of their

:50:44. > :50:47.constituents and the lack of joined up communication when dealing with

:50:48. > :50:50.bereaved parents. Some very disturbing statistics about the

:50:51. > :50:54.miscarriage survey that was undertaken where four or five women

:50:55. > :50:58.got no after-care at all, thinking today about how important it is that

:50:59. > :51:03.we do get that support as often as we can. We also heard from the

:51:04. > :51:07.member from East Worthing and Shoreham, who spoke with grdat

:51:08. > :51:11.knowledge, talking about thd shocking statistic, that many of

:51:12. > :51:16.them don't commission bereaved men support. And statistics abott the

:51:17. > :51:20.lack of access to mental he`lth comedies right in that it doesn t

:51:21. > :51:24.just fade away, ongoing support is needed for parents. Andy pager the

:51:25. > :51:33.many charities that provide support and he's right, they don't just need

:51:34. > :51:36.to rely on charities, that's right. And the legal absurdity, about 4

:51:37. > :51:42.weeks in the classification and I think you made a compelling case

:51:43. > :51:44.today. And finally in terms of contributions in particular, I want

:51:45. > :51:49.to pay tribute to the outst`nding contribution of my honourable friend

:51:50. > :51:53.from Lewisham, she showed incredible courage to tell us about her

:51:54. > :51:56.daughter Veronica and we cotld all feel the pain that she must have

:51:57. > :52:01.felt every day for the last 23 years when she spoke about it, I think

:52:02. > :52:05.that we all admire the bravdry, talking about this today, I'm sure

:52:06. > :52:12.that Veronica will be as proud, as we all are today. So Madam Deputy

:52:13. > :52:19.Speaker, moving to the substance of the debate, we know that thhs has

:52:20. > :52:22.coincided with baby loss aw`reness week and we have heard therd is an

:52:23. > :52:27.opportunity for bereaved parents, families and friends across the

:52:28. > :52:31.world to unite, and I would like to add my voice to the chip is paid to

:52:32. > :52:36.the many charities who do so much to support families in what is possibly

:52:37. > :52:40.the most challenging time, `nd I did think any member could be in any

:52:41. > :52:44.doubt as to how difficult that is, having heard the many contrhbutions.

:52:45. > :52:47.I know the honourable member for Colchester did not want to start

:52:48. > :52:55.singling out particularly charities but I will name for. Sounds, and

:52:56. > :52:58.antenatal choices do excelldnt work. It is a demonstration of thd

:52:59. > :53:02.importance during baby loss awareness week, as to every week we

:53:03. > :53:06.know that a hundred families will experience one of the biggest rash

:53:07. > :53:11.tease of their lives, an avdrage of 15 stillbirths occur each and every

:53:12. > :53:15.day. We have heard from members that stillbirth is a taboo subject that

:53:16. > :53:19.many find difficult to disctss. I think many are beginning to change

:53:20. > :53:23.that. We have it to the famhlies to change this and I know that today's

:53:24. > :53:28.debate is a valuable part of the process. The loss of 100 lives per

:53:29. > :53:31.week in any circumstances is a tragedy and the kind of figtre where

:53:32. > :53:35.it is happening in a partictlar industry would no doubt lead to a

:53:36. > :53:41.cause for action. That is why, we have heard, the words about personal

:53:42. > :53:47.experiences that are as important as brave. I followed with great

:53:48. > :53:52.interest, the baby loss deb`te, showed in facilitating that debate.

:53:53. > :53:56.This opportunity for members of the public to share their views about

:53:57. > :54:00.this issue. And I would likd to put on record my thanks to everxbody

:54:01. > :54:05.taking part. Twitter and social media have had a bit of a rdputation

:54:06. > :54:09.for being unforgiving and cruel but Monday's debate show just how this

:54:10. > :54:13.area can be harnessed to en`ble genuinely thoughtful and me`ningful

:54:14. > :54:17.engagement with the public. One of the key thing in this debatd is that

:54:18. > :54:24.we offer some of the best ndonatal care in the world along with

:54:25. > :54:26.psychological and brief in support. It is also clear, that it doesn t

:54:27. > :54:31.offer excellent care equallx in every area, which is again something

:54:32. > :54:35.that is debated today. Therd is a great deal of coverage across the

:54:36. > :54:39.country. The rate of stillbhrth stuff frankly unacceptable compared

:54:40. > :54:42.to other similar countries. There has been an enormous amount of

:54:43. > :54:46.progress in reducing the rate of stillbirths over the last cdntury

:54:47. > :54:50.but this progress has sadly stalled, indeed according to the Lancet, the

:54:51. > :54:56.annual rate is lower than the vast George of high income countries Our

:54:57. > :55:00.annual rate of reduction has been 1.4% compared to 6.8% in thd

:55:01. > :55:04.Netherlands, we all accept that is not out except to pull level of

:55:05. > :55:08.progress. Their ability may well be one of the key reasons behind that.

:55:09. > :55:12.We certainly welcome the government 's commitment to reduce the rate of

:55:13. > :55:18.stillbirths, and brain injuries that occur soon after the birth by the

:55:19. > :55:26.end of this Parliament and by 5 % by 2030. During the debate we had in

:55:27. > :55:28.June, the previous minister confirmed, the first annual progress

:55:29. > :55:31.report towards meeting thesd targets was due to be published this autumn.

:55:32. > :55:34.Could the minister confirm whether it is still the government 's

:55:35. > :55:38.intention to produce that rdport and when would we expect to see it?

:55:39. > :55:42.Linked to the availability of care, we are to see a reduction of

:55:43. > :55:46.avoidable deaths and to instre that there are safe staffing levdls in

:55:47. > :55:52.neonatal units, the report hn 2 15 found that neonatal units dhd not

:55:53. > :55:55.have enough to meet national standards and 70% of neonat`l

:55:56. > :55:59.intensive care units look after babies and that it is considered

:56:00. > :56:02.safe. Given the strong eviddnce between staffing levels and baby

:56:03. > :56:07.mortality, we have asked thd minister is to step out what steps,

:56:08. > :56:11.we simply will not be able to achieve the government is l`udable

:56:12. > :56:14.aims if we cannot provide staffing levels in neonatal units. One issue

:56:15. > :56:20.that was raised in the debate in June was investigation of

:56:21. > :56:24.stillbirths, at present, coroners do not have the jurists diction, to try

:56:25. > :56:29.and understand exactly why the death occurred. As we heard from lany

:56:30. > :56:32.members today, parents want to know what has gone wrong, and whdther it

:56:33. > :56:38.will happen again. Members from all sides of the debate are encouraged,

:56:39. > :56:41.the previous minister undertook to expand it, and the counterp`rt in

:56:42. > :56:46.the Department of Justice and I would be grateful if the Minister,

:56:47. > :56:49.was able to do that. Madam Deputy Speaker I will conclude by focusing

:56:50. > :56:54.on the family is that so sad experience in treatment and the care

:56:55. > :56:59.of support. This is another area, suddenly there is a great ddal of

:57:00. > :57:02.variability, support and care, that all of us have received, fr`nkly

:57:03. > :57:11.shocking experiences many of which we have heard today. We are

:57:12. > :57:16.grateful, what steps, as wh`t he's going to take in neonatal hdalth.

:57:17. > :57:21.Nobody do has suffered the trauma should have two suffer alond. In

:57:22. > :57:25.conclusion, members from across the house have spoken very bravdly and

:57:26. > :57:28.with great passion about thdir personal experiences, I hopd that

:57:29. > :57:31.following this debate, we whll be able to move forward and continue to

:57:32. > :57:36.break down the taboos and m`ke sure that every family gets the very best

:57:37. > :57:39.in terms of medical support should that situation occur to thel.

:57:40. > :57:51.Families experience the verx worst of times and it offers them the very

:57:52. > :57:57.best. Madam Deputy Speaker H had to say I stand here humble frankly to

:57:58. > :58:00.be responding to this debatd, it is undoubtedly the most moving debate I

:58:01. > :58:04.have participated in in the 11 and a half years I have been in this house

:58:05. > :58:07.and it is an enormous tribute to all of those members that spoken, in

:58:08. > :58:11.particular of their personal experience and I will touch on that

:58:12. > :58:16.in a few moments. I would lhke to start on congratulate my honourable

:58:17. > :58:21.friends, the member for edit Briand for Colchester. He has moved his

:58:22. > :58:24.place, issue is here. Having initiated this debate, parthcularly

:58:25. > :58:30.having done so during baby loss awareness week. I would likd also to

:58:31. > :58:34.commend them, for the remarkable progress they have made, in

:58:35. > :58:37.launching the all-party Parliamentary group on baby loss,

:58:38. > :58:43.for securing the cross-partx support that they have and by making such an

:58:44. > :58:49.unusual impact, through an `ll-party group, compared to, the platter of

:58:50. > :58:52.others that don't manage to achieve a Commons chamber debate within

:58:53. > :58:56.frankly if you months of setting it up. It really is an unusual and

:58:57. > :59:01.impressive achievement by them, and the other officers on both sides of

:59:02. > :59:05.the house. Yesterday honour`ble members from across the house showed

:59:06. > :59:12.tremendous support for the work of the group, on baby loss. And, the,

:59:13. > :59:16.this as has been mentioned by other members of the house, was evidenced

:59:17. > :59:22.by the support from Madam Ddputy Speaker. Mr speed in hosting a

:59:23. > :59:28.reception, in his state rools. Yesterday, attended by, manx of the

:59:29. > :59:33.21 pregnancy and baby loss charities, who are dedicated, to

:59:34. > :59:38.arranging, support and care, for families that go through, this

:59:39. > :59:41.terrible experience. It was awareness raising events, stch as

:59:42. > :59:46.have taken place throughout the week, here in this chamber `nd in

:59:47. > :59:52.this house, indeed on Twittdr, it has been referred to buy durable

:59:53. > :59:56.gentleman Hurley. It helps to raise awareness, for those familids, who

:59:57. > :59:59.suffered this loss, and so often in silence. I think that one of the

:00:00. > :00:03.things that struck me most `bout this debate is the determin`tion of

:00:04. > :00:07.those in particular to have experienced such loss directly or

:00:08. > :00:14.through their families or their constituents. To try to not let this

:00:15. > :00:19.issue remain in the closet. I'll like to start with a view comments

:00:20. > :00:22.on some of the points that have been raised and applaud the contributions

:00:23. > :00:26.and interventions that we h`ve had to date from over 30 honour`ble

:00:27. > :00:29.members who have spoken in their own personal experience and those of

:00:30. > :00:34.their constituents and interestingly although we have had contributions

:00:35. > :00:39.from 17 backbench women, we have also had contributions from 13

:00:40. > :00:45.backbench men, some of whom, have had personal direct experience as

:00:46. > :00:53.well. And, as has been said earlier, I think the moving commentary of the

:00:54. > :00:57.experience in particular of the honourable members who have not

:00:58. > :01:00.raised this issue in public in this place before, the honourabld member

:01:01. > :01:04.for Lewisham Deptford, the honourable member for North Ayrshire

:01:05. > :01:09.and Arran, the honourable mdmber for Banbury who I think may havd touched

:01:10. > :01:13.on it before but made anothdr moving contribution, and the honourable

:01:14. > :01:16.member for Gower. Who I havdn't heard talk on this before, `nd

:01:17. > :01:24.indeed the honourable member for Glasgow North West as well. Such

:01:25. > :01:28.personal testament it, obviously touches the heart strings, of

:01:29. > :01:34.everyone who hears it. And there was barely a dry eye in the house when

:01:35. > :01:39.they were speaking, and I think that plays due tribute, to their bravery

:01:40. > :01:45.and courage, in making so clear the pain that they went through. Some

:01:46. > :01:52.quite recently and some years ago, and of course foremost among those

:01:53. > :01:56.are headers Briand Colchestdr, who brought this so vividly to our

:01:57. > :02:02.attention with their speechds nearly 12 months ago. I am not going to go

:02:03. > :02:07.through every single contribution that has been made but I will try to

:02:08. > :02:11.refer to many in my remarks. And indeed in particular I would like to

:02:12. > :02:15.also pay tribute to the opposition front bench spokesman and hhs very

:02:16. > :02:20.thoughtful contributions, and we have just heard and the spirit in

:02:21. > :02:24.which she has made his remarks. I will try and address most of the

:02:25. > :02:29.questions he has made as I continue. I will just before I forget, address

:02:30. > :02:36.a specific comment made by ly rightful bull friend the melber for

:02:37. > :02:40.Crawley and asked, where, sorry Mid Sussex, who asked, have I got it

:02:41. > :02:50.wrong again. It is Mid Sussdx? Thank you. It is in the South. He asked

:02:51. > :02:57.where are we going in looking to screen for group B Streptococcus.

:02:58. > :03:04.I can reassure him that we `re looking at this as part of `

:03:05. > :03:08.three-year view review cycld and will be taking new published

:03:09. > :03:11.evidence into account. We are anticipating a public consultation

:03:12. > :03:12.to be held on the topic shortly and I am sure my right honourable friend

:03:13. > :03:18.will want to participate in that and will want to participate in that and

:03:19. > :03:23.one that has been concluded we will then review what recommendations

:03:24. > :03:28.emerge. The loss of the babx is clearly devastating for its parents

:03:29. > :03:33.and the family regardless of when and how the baby death occurred

:03:34. > :03:37.Those experiencing the heartbreak of miscarriage, stillbirth, thd death

:03:38. > :03:40.of an infant or decision to terminate a much wanted pregnancy

:03:41. > :03:44.need our support, kindness `nd acknowledgement that their child was

:03:45. > :03:48.here for a short time and w`s loved. And I have been deeply struck by the

:03:49. > :03:54.comments made about in some cases the lack of sensitivity which can

:03:55. > :04:00.occur when the loss takes place And I think it's absolutely right that

:04:01. > :04:06.we seek from the Department of Health to encourage best pr`ctice

:04:07. > :04:11.across the NHS so that we c`n try to minimise the distress caused by in

:04:12. > :04:17.sensitive conduct by those who are involved in supporting families

:04:18. > :04:21.through this time. Such feelings of loss are real, but as has bden said

:04:22. > :04:26.in particular by my honourable friend for our who explained very

:04:27. > :04:32.dispassionately and clearly, these issues are very often not dhscussed.

:04:33. > :04:36.So many of us do not realisd that on an average day like today in

:04:37. > :04:44.England, around 32 women will be diagnosed with an ectopic pregnancy,

:04:45. > :04:49.15 babies will be born stillborn, eight babies will be born that will

:04:50. > :04:52.die before their first birthday mostly for they are a month old It

:04:53. > :04:55.is important that we discussed the issues around baby loss and the care

:04:56. > :05:02.for those families experiencing such for those families experiencing such

:05:03. > :05:06.a tragedy. I would like to tse the first part of my response to talk

:05:07. > :05:11.about the steps that we are taking with the NHS to reduce stillbirth

:05:12. > :05:14.and then to talk about what we are and then to talk about what we are

:05:15. > :05:19.doing to support families going through the experience of this loss.

:05:20. > :05:23.England is a very safe country in which to have a baby. And it is

:05:24. > :05:34.encouraging that the stillbhrth rate in England has fallen from 4.2 per

:05:35. > :05:41.1000 births in 2011 to 4.4 hn 2 15. In 2014, the neonatal mortality rate

:05:42. > :05:48.was 2.5 deaths per 1000 births and the rate of deaths in babies aged 28

:05:49. > :05:50.days- one year was 1.1 per 0000 births. Both of these rates have

:05:51. > :05:54.been steadily declining and are now been steadily declining and are now

:05:55. > :05:58.the lowest levels since 1986. There is however as we have clearly heard

:05:59. > :06:03.from every contribution tod`y, more that we can do. And we as a

:06:04. > :06:10.government are determined to do so. It is important that we do not

:06:11. > :06:12.accept all miscarriages, sthllbirth, pregnancy terminations or ndonatal

:06:13. > :06:17.deaths are inevitable or silply nature taking its course as has been

:06:18. > :06:21.touched on by a couple of contributions today, becausd many of

:06:22. > :06:25.them might have been prevented. Compared to other similar countries,

:06:26. > :06:29.our stillbirth rates remain an acceptable. In the Lancet, the

:06:30. > :06:35.stillbirth series published early this year, the UK was ranked 24th

:06:36. > :06:39.out of 49 high income countries The same publication showed that the UK

:06:40. > :06:43.for the great progress in rdducing stillbirth has been slower than most

:06:44. > :06:49.other high income countries. The annual rate of stillbirth rdduction

:06:50. > :06:53.in the UK was 1.4%, compared with 6.8% in the Netherlands. Thhs place

:06:54. > :06:59.is asked, as we heard from the honourable member for aggro to come

:07:00. > :07:05.in the bottom third of the table in -- for Eddisbury, in the bottom

:07:06. > :07:09.third of the table for progress in stillbirth. We also know th`t the

:07:10. > :07:14.rates of death in some high,risk groups are not coming down `nd this

:07:15. > :07:20.was referred to by the honotrable member for Colchester. According to

:07:21. > :07:23.the Twins and multiple births Association, stillbirth ratds for

:07:24. > :07:30.pregnancies involving twins, triplets or more increased by 1 .6%

:07:31. > :07:35.between 2013 and 2014. Multhple births make up 1.5% of pregnancies

:07:36. > :07:42.in the UK, around 12,000 prdgnancies each year, but disproportionate 7%

:07:43. > :07:51.of stillbirth and 14% of neonatal deaths. We want NHS maternity

:07:52. > :07:54.services to be an exemplar of the kind of results we can achidve when

:07:55. > :07:58.we focus on improving safetx. We believe that with a concertdd

:07:59. > :08:01.effort, we can make England one of the safest places in the world to

:08:02. > :08:06.have a baby and that is why last November, the Secretary of State

:08:07. > :08:11.launched a national ambition to half the rate of stillbirth, neonatal

:08:12. > :08:16.deaths, maternal deaths and brain injuries that occur during or soon

:08:17. > :08:19.after birth by 2030, with a shorter term aim of achieving a 20 cents

:08:20. > :08:24.reduction in each of these rates by 2020 and I am glad that this was

:08:25. > :08:28.recognised by my right honotrable friend the member for Eddisbury and

:08:29. > :08:32.I am pleased she will be kedping an eye on the progress that we are

:08:33. > :08:39.making each year in achieving the targets. To support the NHS in

:08:40. > :08:46.achieving this stretching albition, the government has also announced

:08:47. > :08:52.plans for investment. Firstly a 2.25 million pounds fund to support

:08:53. > :08:53.trusts by monitoring and tr`ining equipment to improve safety. 90

:08:54. > :08:59.trusts have received a shard of the trusts have received a shard of the

:09:00. > :09:02.fund enabling them to buy things such as faecal monitoring epuipment

:09:03. > :09:15.-- faecal monitoring equipmdnt We are also investing in rolling out

:09:16. > :09:17.training programmes to support midwives, obstetricians and

:09:18. > :09:20.maternity teams to develop the skills and confidence they need

:09:21. > :09:24.together to deliver world ldading together to deliver world ldading

:09:25. > :09:28.safe care. We hope to be able to say more about how maternity services

:09:29. > :09:33.can apply for this funding soon We are also providing some funding via

:09:34. > :09:37.the health care quality improvement partnership in developing a new

:09:38. > :09:41.system called this standardhsed perinatal mortality review tool

:09:42. > :09:48.which once complete should be used consistently across the NHS in Great

:09:49. > :09:52.Britain to enable maternity systems to review and learn from evdry

:09:53. > :09:54.stillbirth in the UK. This was an important part of the vision for the

:09:55. > :09:59.future and we share this developing future and we share this developing

:10:00. > :10:05.a proper learning and understanding from what goes wrong, it nedds to be

:10:06. > :10:09.developed and then the lessons spread across maternity services

:10:10. > :10:15.across the country. Many reports have highlighted, as the honourable

:10:16. > :10:18.intervention emphasised, thd fact intervention emphasised, thd fact

:10:19. > :10:24.that we do not effectively learn from our mistakes. Indeed the Royal

:10:25. > :10:27.College of obstetricians and gynaecologists guidelines state that

:10:28. > :10:31.all stillbirth should be reviewed in a multi-professional meeting using a

:10:32. > :10:35.standardised approach to an`lysis for substandard care and future

:10:36. > :10:41.prevention and this is something we would like to see taken up. We must

:10:42. > :10:44.view individual failings as important and recognise the need for

:10:45. > :10:49.accountability, but balance this with the need to establish standard

:10:50. > :10:54.processes that can prevent `voidable mistakes from happening agahn. This

:10:55. > :10:59.is a reason why in April, wd established a new independent health

:11:00. > :11:05.care safety investigation Branch to carry out investigations and share

:11:06. > :11:08.its findings. The branch will operate independently of government

:11:09. > :11:10.and the health care system to support continuous improvemdnt by

:11:11. > :11:15.using the very best investigative techniques from around the world, as

:11:16. > :11:19.well as fostering learning from staff, patients and other

:11:20. > :11:25.stakeholders. And important improvement in maternity care is

:11:26. > :11:29.care that is more collaborative and responsive to the needs of women.

:11:30. > :11:36.Several honourable members reference the investigations by the S`nds

:11:37. > :11:40.chanting which has revealed that 45% of women who raise a concern whether

:11:41. > :11:47.health confessional during pregnancy were not listened to and thdn went

:11:48. > :11:54.acceptable. All women should receive acceptable. All women should receive

:11:55. > :11:58.safe, personalised return to care -- maternity care which is responsible

:11:59. > :12:04.for the individual choices. The honourable gentleman asked from the

:12:05. > :12:08.front bench where we are in supporting those with mental health

:12:09. > :12:09.conditions through pregnancx. I would draw to his attention the

:12:10. > :12:16.announcement this January where the announcement this January where the

:12:17. > :12:22.government set out an addithonal ?290 million making available in the

:12:23. > :12:25.next five years to invest in perinatal mental health services,

:12:26. > :12:30.this is funded from within the bombing of health's overall spending

:12:31. > :12:35.review settlement. -- Department of Health. This will go a long way to

:12:36. > :12:41.providing support for women who are pregnant, who need mental hdalth

:12:42. > :12:50.counselling. Both before and after birth. Last November, we asked the

:12:51. > :12:55.National patient campaign shgn up to safety, launched by governmdnt in

:12:56. > :12:57.maternity services to develop plans maternity services to develop plans

:12:58. > :13:04.to improve the safety and shared best practice and in March this year

:13:05. > :13:07.we launched a spotlight on laternity with guidance from maternitx

:13:08. > :13:12.services to improve maternity outcomes. This set out five

:13:13. > :13:16.high-level themes for services to focus on which are known to make

:13:17. > :13:20.maternity care safer. Buildhng strong clinical leadership, building

:13:21. > :13:24.capability and skills for all staff, sharing progress and lessons learned

:13:25. > :13:27.across the system, improving data capture and knowledge, and hmproving

:13:28. > :13:33.care for women with perinat`l mental health problems. In Februarx this

:13:34. > :13:38.year, better births, the report of the International maternity review

:13:39. > :13:41.chaired by Baroness Kumble was chaired by Baroness Kumble was

:13:42. > :13:47.published, it was touched on today. It sets out the vision for laternity

:13:48. > :13:50.services across Britain to become safer, more personalised, khnder,

:13:51. > :13:57.more professional and familx friendly. The Department of Health

:13:58. > :13:59.is leading the promotion of the work team of transformation programme

:14:00. > :14:04.launched last July to delivdr the vision set out by the review and we

:14:05. > :14:09.will be setting out our acthon plans shortly. As my honourable friend for

:14:10. > :14:13.Eddisbury highlighted, it is vital that we support research into the

:14:14. > :14:19.causes of stillbirth and neonatal deaths so we can better unddrstand

:14:20. > :14:23.how to identify babies at rhsk with improved services. In recent years

:14:24. > :14:26.the government has invested in research looking at important

:14:27. > :14:31.questions on stillbirth and neonatal death. From 2012, the National is

:14:32. > :14:36.chewed for health research logical research centres at Cambridge and

:14:37. > :14:41.Imperial College have invested 6,000,005 years on research of

:14:42. > :14:47.women's health, including rdsearch on stillbirth and neonatal death,

:14:48. > :14:51.and we continue to encouragd new study that will identify babies at

:14:52. > :14:57.risk. The evidence shows th`t this stretching ambition cannot be

:14:58. > :15:02.achieved from improvements to NHS maternity services alone. The public

:15:03. > :15:05.have got to be sure will be crucial. As the Lancet stillbirth series

:15:06. > :15:11.concluded, some 90% of stillbirth of high income countries occur

:15:12. > :15:14.antenatally and not during labour. We have heard for a number of

:15:15. > :15:21.honourable members about thd need to do more to highlight risks during

:15:22. > :15:26.pregnancy so that women are aware of things that they can do while

:15:27. > :15:30.pregnant to minimise these risks. When starting pregnancy, not all

:15:31. > :15:34.women will have the same risk of something going wrong, and women's

:15:35. > :15:37.health before and during prdgnancy are some of the factors that

:15:38. > :15:47.influence rates of stillbirth, near native dust and -- neonatal deaths

:15:48. > :15:52.and others. Quarter of stillbirth are associated with smoking, and

:15:53. > :15:55.alcohol consumption with associated with an estimated 40% incre`se to

:15:56. > :15:59.stillbirth risk. In addition, a report published in June last year

:16:00. > :16:07.showed that women living in poverty are 50% percent higher risk. Babies

:16:08. > :16:10.from BME groups have a 50% higher risk, and teenage mothers and

:16:11. > :16:18.mothers over 40 have a 39% higher risk. I know the minister is common

:16:19. > :16:22.to the end of his speech, could he give me a guaranteed that hd will

:16:23. > :16:27.look at the issue of registration of stillbirth because he had not

:16:28. > :16:33.come back to the honourable come back to the honourable

:16:34. > :16:36.gentleman's point as I conclude These are striking facts ard why the

:16:37. > :16:40.Department of Health will continue to work closely with Public Health

:16:41. > :16:43.England and voluntary sector organisations to help peopld have

:16:44. > :16:46.healthy pregnancy and familhes have the best start in life. Any

:16:47. > :16:49.information campaign will bd information campaign will bd

:16:50. > :16:51.launched shortly and I in courage all honourable members to stpport it

:16:52. > :16:57.during the launch period. I would like to say a few words before I

:16:58. > :17:02.conclude about the importance of delivering good bereavement care for

:17:03. > :17:07.those families who have expdrienced baby loss which was a topic raised

:17:08. > :17:11.by many members today. Having not gone to this extent myself, I can

:17:12. > :17:17.scarcely comprehend how dev`stating this must be for Paris to lose a

:17:18. > :17:23.baby, and it is absolutely hmportant that parents received appropriate

:17:24. > :17:29.care and support in a sensitive away as possible when this occurs. The

:17:30. > :17:32.report that I have referencdd stated that 60% of parents currently

:17:33. > :17:39.receive a high standard of bereavement care but that ldaves 40%

:17:40. > :17:42.you do not which is not good enough. Since 2010, we have invested ?3

:17:43. > :17:46.million in the NHS to improve birthing environments and this is

:17:47. > :17:51.included in better bereavemdnt suites and family rooms at some 40

:17:52. > :17:56.hospitals to support bereavdd families. I have seen some of these

:17:57. > :18:01.myself, including the superb sweet opened last month at the Medway

:18:02. > :18:07.Maritime Hospital which was one of those which they indicated they did

:18:08. > :18:13.not have one when the honourable member for Eddisbury undertook

:18:14. > :18:17.research. We have had from other members about the recent improvement

:18:18. > :18:22.in Nottingham. We have been working with Sands, the miscarriage

:18:23. > :18:24.Association and other trusts to understand the challenges that

:18:25. > :18:28.maternity services face and highlight areas of good practice and

:18:29. > :18:30.I am pleased that the all-p`rty group port published this wdek

:18:31. > :18:34.recognises the work that we are supporting the development `nd

:18:35. > :18:39.overarching bereavement card pathway to help reduce the variation in the

:18:40. > :18:44.quality of bereavement care provided cost the NHS.

:18:45. > :18:50.In response to my honourabld friend's intervention and the

:18:51. > :18:56.comments in the debate, I h`ve been impressed by the comments m`de about

:18:57. > :19:01.registration of post-24 week baby loss, often in the same place where

:19:02. > :19:05.mothers with young babies are registering births and I can well

:19:06. > :19:10.imagine that compounds the sense of grief. I think it is appropriate

:19:11. > :19:14.that we look at best practice and the common-sense delivery of

:19:15. > :19:21.registration to see if this can be spread more widely, so why will -- I

:19:22. > :19:26.will ask officials to look `t that but I am not promising legislation.

:19:27. > :19:32.In conclusion I would like to thank all honourable members for

:19:33. > :19:36.participating in this debatd, for their deeply moving contribttions,

:19:37. > :19:40.in particular to those who secured the debate and the work thex have

:19:41. > :19:45.done in driving the all-party group and awareness across the nation I

:19:46. > :19:49.think it is important that we try as the Government to drive improvement

:19:50. > :19:52.in outcomes and I would likd to reassure honourable members that

:19:53. > :19:57.this government is fully colmitted to reducing the number of b`bies who

:19:58. > :20:01.died during pregnancy or in the neonatal period and supporthng those

:20:02. > :20:06.families who are buried. Whhle baby loss awareness week in Westlinster

:20:07. > :20:10.culminates with this import`nt debate today, other events `re

:20:11. > :20:14.continuing to take place around the United Kingdom and internathonally.

:20:15. > :20:17.I would like to courage everyone listening to this debate to joining

:20:18. > :20:21.the global wave of light whhch we heard about earlier this afternoon,

:20:22. > :20:25.by lighting a candle at sevdn o'clock this Saturday the 14th of

:20:26. > :20:30.October, and letting it burned for one hour in remembrance of `ll the

:20:31. > :20:40.babies who have died during pregnancy at, during or aftdr birth.

:20:41. > :20:44.Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. I want to pay huge tribute to my

:20:45. > :20:47.colleagues and particularly the member for Lewisham and Deptford. I

:20:48. > :20:53.know it is incredibly hard when you sit in this place to decide whether

:20:54. > :20:57.you want to put something that is a deeply personal piece of yotr life

:20:58. > :21:01.into the public domain and `ctually, any parent that is dealing with

:21:02. > :21:05.child loss deals with that same dilemma. Do they talk to thdir

:21:06. > :21:10.employer, do they talk to their friends, do they explain wh`t has

:21:11. > :21:17.happened? And I therefore w`nt to thank you and all my other

:21:18. > :21:21.colleagues, the member for @yrshire and Arran, the member for B`nbury,

:21:22. > :21:25.the member for Washington and Sunderland West, the member for us

:21:26. > :21:31.go cover them mother for Gower and indeed the member for Colchdster

:21:32. > :21:37.who, we were not aware when this path was going to take us a year

:21:38. > :21:45.ago, and I am so grateful that we are breaking the silence around

:21:46. > :21:50.child loss. We need professhonals in the NHS to break the silencd around

:21:51. > :21:55.baby loss and I certainly whll be joining the wave of light on

:21:56. > :22:01.Saturday. There is a series of awards called the Butterfly Or wards

:22:02. > :22:08.where you can nominate good practice in your local hospital. -- butterfly

:22:09. > :22:13.or wards. I would think abott nominating those people who you know

:22:14. > :22:17.and next year I will be there listening to the awards and I will

:22:18. > :22:20.certainly be lighting a wavd of light, and I know many others will

:22:21. > :22:28.as well. Thank you. Before I put the

:22:29. > :22:36.question, I would like to commend everyone who has taken part in this

:22:37. > :22:42.extraordinary debate this afternoon, many of whom have shown incredible

:22:43. > :22:46.courage talking about sensitive personal issues. Those who criticise

:22:47. > :22:55.this chamber and the way it works should pay a bit of attention to how

:22:56. > :23:03.powerful it is when it oper`tes as a unique forum for national ddbate and

:23:04. > :23:12.how effective it is when it operates at its best as it has done this

:23:13. > :23:18.afternoon. The question is that this House has considered baby loss. As

:23:19. > :23:30.many as are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". Nobody

:23:31. > :23:39.is going to say No. Order. We now come to the backbench motion on

:23:40. > :23:46.hormone pregnancy tests. Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker

:23:47. > :23:52.Firstly, I want to thank thd Backbench Business Committed for

:23:53. > :23:56.granting this debate. This hs a second debate on an issue which I

:23:57. > :24:05.started to campaign about fhve years ago. Just under two years ago, I

:24:06. > :24:11.went to the backbench busindss debate committee, and asked for a

:24:12. > :24:23.debate on the issue of a drtg which was proscribed to pregnant women in

:24:24. > :24:25.the 60s and 70s. This drug has 0 times the strength of an or`l

:24:26. > :24:33.contraceptive which is proscribed now. And we know what that was

:24:34. > :24:39.derived for. It is estimated that at least 1.5 million women may have

:24:40. > :24:45.taken this drug and thousands of families suffered. In a written

:24:46. > :24:58.parliamentary question prevhously, the Minister assessed this figure of

:24:59. > :25:04.540,000 women who may have suffered effects. This all-star tip hn 2 11

:25:05. > :25:13.when I met my constituents Nicola at home. She was born with congenital

:25:14. > :25:23.deformities in her heart, stomach and womb. Her first operation was

:25:24. > :25:31.when she was a week old. Another of my constituents was Bridget Oliver.

:25:32. > :25:38.When I met Nicola at her hole, at the time I also saw boxes and boxes

:25:39. > :25:44.of documents, some had been leaked from various pharmaceutical

:25:45. > :25:48.countries and other bodies. I had a brief look through those documents.

:25:49. > :26:01.It was at that point that I decided that this was an issue that needed

:26:02. > :26:07.not just mentioning but we had to come to a real enquiry as to what

:26:08. > :26:11.happened, because I am not exaggerating, and I am not being

:26:12. > :26:18.overemotional, but applying my own legal knowledge to it, and ly

:26:19. > :26:24.background as a barrister, H am prepared to say that as far as I am

:26:25. > :26:28.concerned, there was a deliberate criminal negligent oversight by the

:26:29. > :26:33.then committee on safety of medicines about this drug and its

:26:34. > :26:37.usage, and the fact that it was continued to be proscribed for years

:26:38. > :26:42.and years and years, despitd the medical community, most of them

:26:43. > :26:53.knowing that it was causing adverse consequences to women who h`d taken

:26:54. > :27:00.this. At the first debate, the end of it, the minister agreed to hold

:27:01. > :27:03.an expert panel of enquiry to look into this particular thing, and it

:27:04. > :27:15.was agreed by the minister hn parliament and outside Parlhament

:27:16. > :27:22.that they would look at all the available documents. Documents that

:27:23. > :27:25.we have an documents in the archives, and the Minister went

:27:26. > :27:34.further to order that all the documents that the current

:27:35. > :27:38.equivalent body hold, the MHRA would also be revealed as well. And the

:27:39. > :27:51.enquiry would look at all of these documents, and to assess, to assess

:27:52. > :27:58.what happened. This debate hs more about what has been going on with

:27:59. > :28:06.this enquiry and the way it has been progressing. Frankly, to have

:28:07. > :28:11.enquiry which has then becole a complete whitewash is a waste of

:28:12. > :28:20.everyone's's time and money and it is pointless in having that enquiry.

:28:21. > :28:23.May I first congratulate thd honourable lady in getting this

:28:24. > :28:27.incredibly important debate and agree with what she is saying. At

:28:28. > :28:34.the heart of the matter is ` regulator who took eight ye`rs to

:28:35. > :28:39.act between 1967 and 1975 and then is investigating many years later

:28:40. > :28:45.what it has done, it is absolutely crucial that that enquiry is seen to

:28:46. > :28:49.be independent and full. I thank my honourable friend for that `nd I

:28:50. > :28:56.will come onto the issue about the independence of the enquiry and the

:28:57. > :29:09.members who are composed of that particular panel. The minister

:29:10. > :29:13.indicated it would be an independent panel of experts and they would look

:29:14. > :29:17.at what happened and obviously there were issues about lessons to be

:29:18. > :29:25.learned. Our concern is soldly about what happened, who did what and what

:29:26. > :29:35.will ultimately be compensation for the victims and apologies for the

:29:36. > :29:42.victims as well. I want to highlight briefly some of the evidencd that we

:29:43. > :29:48.have uncovered which shows what has that Chile happened and what happens

:29:49. > :29:56.in the 60s and 70s -- which shows what actually happened. Would my

:29:57. > :30:04.honourable friend give way? Yes of course. My honourable friend will be

:30:05. > :30:10.aware that between 1970 and 197 , Finland, Sweden and Norway `ll

:30:11. > :30:16.banned the use of these sorts of treatments. Does she think there was

:30:17. > :30:20.plenty of indication at that time to give people reason to believe that

:30:21. > :30:25.there was a real problem to be addressed and isn't it timely now,

:30:26. > :30:31.and I congratulate her, that we are now starting to get the evidence out

:30:32. > :30:37.and have it discussed. Absolutely right. It is amazing how other

:30:38. > :30:45.countries reacted to the evhdence. The medical Association herd was

:30:46. > :30:50.firstly alerted by a doctor in 967, a paediatrician who said th`t her

:30:51. > :30:59.research found there was a link between people who had taken the

:31:00. > :31:05.drug and deformities in babhes. Her letters and research was dismissed

:31:06. > :31:08.out of hand by Doctor Inman who headed the regulatory authority and

:31:09. > :31:16.in fact, in a letter, they referred to her as a pathetic eastern

:31:17. > :31:20.European Doctor woman, the derogatory way they referred to her,

:31:21. > :31:27.completely ignoring what shd had to say. We know that there was other

:31:28. > :31:31.information that was available. For example, a committee in February

:31:32. > :31:40.1969 received a letter from a Doctor deed of the Royal College of General

:31:41. > :31:44.Practitioners, who stated, 0969 that Primodos should be withdrawn from

:31:45. > :31:49.use. However, the chief scidntist for that committee, Doctor Hnman,

:31:50. > :31:55.refused to support this, and instead wrote to the manufacturer of the

:31:56. > :32:05.drugs sharing to stay. The opinion that Primodos should be withdrawn

:32:06. > :32:11.should not be taken into account. That winning took this to rhd

:32:12. > :32:17.themselves of an unwanted pregnancy. We know that Norway and Sweden in

:32:18. > :32:24.1970 band this drug. Again, the committee on safety of medicine took

:32:25. > :32:28.no action. Similar notices were also issued in Finland, Germany, the USA,

:32:29. > :32:35.Australia, Ireland and the Netherlands, but again the committee

:32:36. > :32:45.took no action. In fact, in 197 , a letter from Schering, letter said

:32:46. > :32:52.after a discussion with the committee on safety of medicines, we

:32:53. > :32:58.agreed not to recommend for use of pregnancy diagnosis. It is not

:32:59. > :33:02.recommended for early pregn`ncy because problems with the fdmale

:33:03. > :33:07.foetus cannot be excluded whth certainty. Still the committee

:33:08. > :33:10.issued no warning. There were further issues that stated the side

:33:11. > :33:16.effects cannot be reliably dxcluded and that Primodos should no longer

:33:17. > :33:28.be recommended for diagnosis of pregnancy. Again, nothing.

:33:29. > :33:39.And to be assured the committee the panel, has sight of those documents,

:33:40. > :33:41.that they have sufficient thme to read those documents. That they are

:33:42. > :33:49.properly looked at, and not ignored. Or not looked at properly. Hn 1 75,

:33:50. > :33:52.the committee on safety of ledicines issued its first warning, stating

:33:53. > :34:03.that a number of studies have shown a possible association betwden the

:34:04. > :34:08.hormone pregnancy test and hncreased incidence of congenital

:34:09. > :34:15.abnormalities. On 15 October 19 5, 41 years ago, the committee said, we

:34:16. > :34:25.are defenceless in this matter of the eight year delay. It was in

:34:26. > :34:34.November 1977, eight years `fter the committee had first been aldrted,

:34:35. > :34:36.that an adverse reaction if it was issued to the medical profession,

:34:37. > :34:38.stating, further results have now been published and the association

:34:39. > :34:44.is confirmed. Madam Deputy Speaker, I want to refer to, very brhefly,

:34:45. > :34:53.some of the documents. But hn the archives, and documents loc`ted from

:34:54. > :35:00.burning in Germany to Kew G`rdens, which Murray Lion, the lady

:35:01. > :35:03.representing the chair of the victims Association, has bedn

:35:04. > :35:11.painfully gathering the doctments. -- Mary Lion. The committee has been

:35:12. > :35:21.informed of them. At this point I want to pay a particular trhbute to

:35:22. > :35:24.Marie Lion, she has been dohng a considerable amount of work over the

:35:25. > :35:28.last five years. The days, the months, the months she has been

:35:29. > :35:31.dealing with this, she has travelled the length and breadth of the United

:35:32. > :35:36.Kingdom and gone to Germany to look at these documents, get these

:35:37. > :35:43.documents. She has been, effectively, working on her own In

:35:44. > :35:50.that she has no support on `ny government or local authority, a

:35:51. > :35:53.body or anything. The victil association has been very mtch on

:35:54. > :35:57.their own. The only people who have been supporting them have bden the

:35:58. > :36:01.members of the all parliamentary group and the MPs in this chamber.

:36:02. > :36:08.He's been fighting for their cause. A special thanks to her. And also

:36:09. > :36:11.thanks to Jason Farrell of Sky News who actually has been quite

:36:12. > :36:18.instrumental in getting somd of the stuff from Berlin as well as having

:36:19. > :36:22.the documents translated. That's another issue we need to cole onto.

:36:23. > :36:29.A number of the documents that come from Germany are, in fact, hn

:36:30. > :36:33.German, as you'd expect. Ond of the things we would like, and I would

:36:34. > :36:37.like an answer to, is the p`nel is the inquiry, going to get all of

:36:38. > :36:45.those documents translated hnto English? Because clearly yot can't

:36:46. > :36:47.carry out an enquiry if the documents are in a different

:36:48. > :36:54.language. That is another qtestion we need an answer to. And wd need to

:36:55. > :36:57.know the answer about, have all the documents the victims Assochation

:36:58. > :37:00.have been presented with behng looked at and presented to the

:37:01. > :37:06.panel, and the format in whhch they are presented. I can remembdr as a

:37:07. > :37:09.lawyer, when I had a large case with thousands of pages, there w`s a way

:37:10. > :37:16.we presented the evidence to the jury so they could understand it.

:37:17. > :37:24.What I'd like to know is, the panel of the inquiry, are they dohng that?

:37:25. > :37:27.If not, why not? The reason we are asking these questions is bdcause

:37:28. > :37:30.I've tried to contact the chair of the panel, Doctor Elisa Gibb, and

:37:31. > :37:36.have written letters to her, asking her to answer numerous questions.

:37:37. > :37:43.And to be honest, we have not received a satisfactory answer to

:37:44. > :37:48.any of these things. If anything, Marie Lyon, who has observer status

:37:49. > :37:56.in this panel, has been put under what I would call a gagging clause,

:37:57. > :37:58.which is that she can't talk about anything because if she did she

:37:59. > :38:02.would be criminally prosecuted for this. One of the things I rdmember

:38:03. > :38:04.when we had a discussion with the Minister, the purpose of thhs

:38:05. > :38:16.inquiry was to have transparency, openness. Whilst we accept there is

:38:17. > :38:18.a need for a degree of confidentiality, where the dvidence

:38:19. > :38:20.is being presented, we need to know what is going on. We need

:38:21. > :38:24.transparency because without transparency what is the purpose of

:38:25. > :38:29.it? The other thing the minhster promised is that this inquiry would

:38:30. > :38:38.have the victims at the heart of it. At the heart of it. And yet, how are

:38:39. > :38:42.the victims treated in this inquiry? Which has started and which has been

:38:43. > :38:46.going for over a year now? H got a letter from one of the victhms who

:38:47. > :38:54.turned up. And she said, and I will read this, because so distrdssing,

:38:55. > :38:58.they were told they would come in and they could speak for a few

:38:59. > :39:04.minutes. Some of them travelled five, six hours across the country,

:39:05. > :39:08.to get to the hearing. They were promised at least 15 minute slots,

:39:09. > :39:14.what they were given sometiles was three minutes. Five minutes. Nobody

:39:15. > :39:20.even spoke to them properly. They were just asked to get on whth it

:39:21. > :39:24.and say what they have to s`y. The victims, of course, those who gave

:39:25. > :39:27.evidence, were not subject to, fortunately, these gagging clauses

:39:28. > :39:31.so we were able to find out a little bit about what happened on that one

:39:32. > :39:37.day, which seems to have bedn allocated for the victims. We heard

:39:38. > :39:40.from a few of them. The pandl, they didn't ask them any questions, they

:39:41. > :39:45.were cross-examined, they wdren t asked anything, they just h`d three

:39:46. > :39:50.minutes. One lady in partictlar said she was devastated, five hotrs she

:39:51. > :39:54.had taken to drive, to get there. She was given three minutes. They

:39:55. > :39:58.said they were sitting so f`r away from the panel with microphones ..

:39:59. > :40:03.They weren't sure whether the panel were hearing what they have to say.

:40:04. > :40:09.So how can an inquiry which has victims at the heart of it

:40:10. > :40:12.actually... Doesn't give thdm even more than a day to listen to them?

:40:13. > :40:17.When they turn up, give thel three minutes. That is why we are having

:40:18. > :40:20.this debate. Because we are concerned. The members of

:40:21. > :40:29.Parliament, who are supporthng and assisting the victims, is that the

:40:30. > :40:34.way the inquiry is going, I don t think any of us have any confidence

:40:35. > :40:38.in it. Victims, like has bedn shown in the Hillsborough inquiry, the

:40:39. > :40:43.sexual abuse inquiry, it's `ll about the victims. It's not about

:40:44. > :40:47.protecting regulatory bodies, it's not about protecting the schentific

:40:48. > :40:55.community, it is about people been affected by this. The other thing

:40:56. > :40:58.the minister said, it goes without saying, any inquiry has to be

:40:59. > :41:04.independent. The panel membdrs must be independent. So when I r`ised

:41:05. > :41:10.this question with Doctor Elisa Gibb, the chair of it, in a letter,

:41:11. > :41:17.she said, well, we got the dxpert panels to declare they had nothing

:41:18. > :41:19.to declare. No independent vetting or investigation about the

:41:20. > :41:24.background of any of these people. We have to understand this, people

:41:25. > :41:29.in the medical community is, you know, and the scientists, and the

:41:30. > :41:35.pharmaceutical companies, often work with each other. People havd been

:41:36. > :41:36.advisers, consultant to somdbody. Have gone from the pharmacettical

:41:37. > :41:42.companies into medicine, into hospitals. It's a community of

:41:43. > :41:49.people who are linked. We don't have the resources, some research has

:41:50. > :41:51.shown at least two of the p`nel members turned out, one of them

:41:52. > :41:57.Laura Yates, has put on her social media profile that she doesn't think

:41:58. > :42:01.Primodos caused any defects so how can this person be part of ` panel?

:42:02. > :42:07.Then we got the information about Doctor Schafer, the man who has

:42:08. > :42:12.worked with the company concerned. So he has direct links to the

:42:13. > :42:19.hearing and he's still on this panel. It's only two people. What we

:42:20. > :42:27.want to know is, from the Mhnister, are they going to carry out proper

:42:28. > :42:28.vetting of the panel members to see whether they really are inddpendent,

:42:29. > :42:46.and about their connections? Again, without that we don't have

:42:47. > :42:49.any faith in this inquiry. The other thing we've asked from the hnquiry

:42:50. > :42:51.is how long they are going to go on for, how many sessions are they

:42:52. > :42:54.going to have? No response, no nothing. So we have, for well over a

:42:55. > :42:57.year, a nobody, nobody knows what on earth is going on with this inquiry.

:42:58. > :43:07.Again, one of the other questions for the Minister, can we be told how

:43:08. > :43:10.long it's going to carry on for How many days have been set aside for

:43:11. > :43:13.it? Can we find out how manx hours to date have been spent on this

:43:14. > :43:23.inquiry? And, of course, how have the experts been chosen? We don t

:43:24. > :43:25.even know that. What methodology. There are 15 odd people on the

:43:26. > :43:34.panel, do you need that manx people? Who are they? How relevant `re they

:43:35. > :43:36.to the point we're looking `t? The honourable lady will soon bd drawing

:43:37. > :43:38.her remarks to a close in the knowledge there are many other

:43:39. > :43:40.people who wish to speak thhs afternoon and she has vastlx

:43:41. > :43:44.exceeded the guideline amount of time. I will allow her. Mad`m

:43:45. > :43:54.Speaker I was literally comhng to the end. The end comment was really

:43:55. > :44:00.to say, we're very grateful that this enquiry was set up, but we have

:44:01. > :44:01.real genuine concerns about what happened with it, where it's going.

:44:02. > :44:19.At the end of the day, people already said earlier,

:44:20. > :44:22.there is no point having an inquiry if it doesn't really look at things

:44:23. > :44:24.that matter. One of the things has to be the regulatory failurds and

:44:25. > :44:27.the cover-ups in the 60s and 70s. And an explanation for that. The

:44:28. > :44:31.question is as on the order paper... I would like to congratulatd my

:44:32. > :44:40.honourable friend from Bolton South East. I'm pleased to be calling this

:44:41. > :44:42.debate not least to pay tribute to my wonderful constituent Marie Lyon

:44:43. > :44:43.who has already been mentioned by my honourable friend. She's absolutely

:44:44. > :44:57.worked pursuing the Justice for the families

:44:58. > :45:00.affected by hormone pregnancy test drugs. It is her persistencd in a

:45:01. > :45:02.large part that has led to this inquiry and she sits as an observer

:45:03. > :45:07.representing the Association of children damaged by this. However,

:45:08. > :45:10.she is bound by confidentiality I know she's swamped by a deltge of

:45:11. > :45:22.paper. 36 large files in thd last two weeks alone.

:45:23. > :45:25.She has two weeks to read and research them. That's 3000 pages,

:45:26. > :45:27.over 3000 pages of densely written and complex information, as we've

:45:28. > :45:30.heard, often in a foreign l`nguage. If I were a cynic I might stspect

:45:31. > :45:38.they were trying to deter hdr from continuing but it's obvious they

:45:39. > :45:40.don't know Marie. If all thd group members have been given the same

:45:41. > :45:42.timescale I wonder if anyond is able to assimilate this amount of

:45:43. > :45:49.information, however much stpport they have. Now, Marie herself has a

:45:50. > :45:52.daughter who was born with her left arm missing below the elbow joint.

:45:53. > :45:58.She took Primodos on the advice of her doctor. His words were, we've

:45:59. > :46:02.got this great new pill to find out if you're pregnant. We've no longer

:46:03. > :46:07.got to kill the rabbit. She was excited, eager to find out, of

:46:08. > :46:11.course she took her doctor's advice. Like a number of women in mx

:46:12. > :46:14.constituency. I have the highest concentration of constituents

:46:15. > :46:16.affected by thalidomide, I've got the highest concentration of

:46:17. > :46:30.families affected by Primodos. There is a cluster in certahn

:46:31. > :46:33.practices. For me as a laypdrson this demonstrates beyond dotbt the

:46:34. > :46:34.link between the drug and the birth defects. I question the

:46:35. > :46:37.reasonableness of placing the burden of proof on those affected. Surely

:46:38. > :46:42.the key test should be, to prove, that these tablets were safd to take

:46:43. > :46:51.and there were no counter indications. And when there were

:46:52. > :46:53.apparent counter indications, was it withdrawn speedily and in thme to