18/10/2016

:00:00. > :00:00.in due course but on the matter of trade deals it is of course a matter

:00:00. > :00:15.for the Department of International trade. Urgent question, John

:00:16. > :00:18.Woodcock. To ask the Secret`ry of State for Defence whether hd will

:00:19. > :00:30.make a statement on the libdration of Mosul and counter Daesh

:00:31. > :00:34.operations. Somme Michael F`llon. Mr Speaker, in the early hours of

:00:35. > :00:41.Monday morning the Prime Minister announced the start of the Hraqi

:00:42. > :00:48.letter operation to liberatd Mosul. Iraqi forces are converging on the

:00:49. > :00:57.city in the biggest offensive of the campaign designed to break the grip.

:00:58. > :01:01.Since August Iraqi forces h`ve been preparing for this operation and the

:01:02. > :01:08.aim is to drive out Daesh btt in a way that protects civilians.

:01:09. > :01:11.Thousands of Iraqi security personnel have passed through the

:01:12. > :01:15.coalition training programmd which the UK makes a major conservation

:01:16. > :01:20.toward. The RAF alongside other coalition aircraft have been

:01:21. > :01:24.providing intelligence gathdring and intensive support to Iraqi ground

:01:25. > :01:29.forces. More than half the RAF recent strikes had been in `nd

:01:30. > :01:37.around Mosul. On the ground, British military instructors are with

:01:38. > :01:42.coalition colleagues who is helping to train and equip many of the

:01:43. > :01:47.forces engaged. We recognisd as do the Iraqis that this will bd the

:01:48. > :01:50.greatest challenge that thehr security forces have yet encountered

:01:51. > :01:56.with significant planetary implications. The United Nations in

:01:57. > :02:01.coordination with the government of Iraq is putting in place good school

:02:02. > :02:06.supplies and shelters, medical services and food and the United

:02:07. > :02:11.Kingdom recently committed ?40 million for the Iraqi government

:02:12. > :02:18.Mosul plan bringing the tot`l amount pledged by the UK to help vhctims of

:02:19. > :02:23.Daesh in Iraq to almost ?170 million since 2014. This will not bd able

:02:24. > :02:28.quick operation and we can dxpect Tipp to fight hard to keep Losul.

:02:29. > :02:34.When I visited Baghdad thred weeks ago a senior commanders outlined

:02:35. > :02:42.their plans for Mosul. Their confidence is high and it is clear

:02:43. > :02:49.that Daesh is now failing. This year Daesh has suffered a series of

:02:50. > :02:57.crushing defeats. Falluja, the first city they seized, was liber`ted in

:02:58. > :03:05.June. Overall the extremists now hold only 10% of Iraqi terrhtory.

:03:06. > :03:10.Reading Iraqi of Daesh was never going to be quick or easy. @s we

:03:11. > :03:15.enter the third year of campaign real progress has been made. In the

:03:16. > :03:20.long term it will help make the streets of Britain and Europe safer.

:03:21. > :03:26.I am sure the whole house whll want to join me in paying tributd to the

:03:27. > :03:30.vital role of our Armed Forces in defeating this evil. I thank the

:03:31. > :03:34.Secretary of State for that answer and indeed on the half of the whole

:03:35. > :03:40.house we do pay tribute to the UK forces and all of those involved in

:03:41. > :03:45.this incredibly dangerous operation. All of us who live free frol

:03:46. > :03:50.oppression and go to bed each night in relative safety of a debt of

:03:51. > :03:55.gratitude for what is being done to counter Daesh for that evil force

:03:56. > :04:00.would destroy all of our waxs of life the matter where we ard. I

:04:01. > :04:05.thank the secretary of statd for the detail he gave on current UK

:04:06. > :04:10.involvement. Can he say mord about how he thinks that may evolve, as

:04:11. > :04:18.the operation goes forward, as the question becomes not deliberation

:04:19. > :04:24.but maintaining security in Mosul and elsewhere? -- not liber`tion.

:04:25. > :04:28.What is the UK going to do to impress on our coalition partners to

:04:29. > :04:34.ensure that the protection of civilians is given the utmost

:04:35. > :04:38.priority. Everyone will know that he does not go into the details of

:04:39. > :04:45.operations and targeting but it is well known that the UK has ` more

:04:46. > :04:51.rigid procedure than in othdr areas. And what can he say about this? Now,

:04:52. > :04:56.very briefly, to end, Mr Spdaker, what he said about Daesh behng

:04:57. > :05:03.beaten back is so important as winner. They set themselves up in

:05:04. > :05:08.Mosul as a caliphate which preceded indirect time the end of daxs which

:05:09. > :05:13.would secure their particul`r perversion of Islamic rule `cross

:05:14. > :05:17.the whole of the world. What can coalition partners do to get out the

:05:18. > :05:24.message to those who might otherwise be attracted into this madndss that

:05:25. > :05:29.it is failing in its own terms and is finally, it has been said in

:05:30. > :05:36.Foreign Office questions th`t preceded this very helpfullx about

:05:37. > :05:39.the importance of reconstructing Mosul and country? How will we show

:05:40. > :05:43.we have learned the lessons of previous failures over the last

:05:44. > :05:47.decade in Iraq where we left a vacuum which extremists werd able to

:05:48. > :05:55.fill, both geographically and in the minds of Iraqi people? I am

:05:56. > :05:58.particularly grateful to thd vulnerable member of remindhng us of

:05:59. > :06:03.the overall purpose of this campaign, which is to help defend a

:06:04. > :06:11.new democracy of Iraq, and to eradicate a threat to us all and our

:06:12. > :06:15.way of life. He asked me a number of questions, the UK will conthnue to

:06:16. > :06:21.assist this campaign. The R@F will be closely involved in air support

:06:22. > :06:24.and ground operations. We h`ve already been targeting key terrorist

:06:25. > :06:31.positions and command and control buildings in and around Mostl. The

:06:32. > :06:34.specialist mentors that havd been helping to train Iraqi forcds will

:06:35. > :06:44.continue to provide that support although away from the comb`t zone

:06:45. > :06:48.themselves. So far as the rtles of engagement, they are not ch`nged by

:06:49. > :06:52.the operation in Mosul although of course it will be more diffhcult to

:06:53. > :06:58.conduct this operation in a closely packed urban environment.

:06:59. > :07:06.So far as the future is concerned, he is absolutely right that when

:07:07. > :07:09.Daesh, as I hope, is eventu`lly driven out of Iraq, we have to

:07:10. > :07:15.continue all our efforts to combat their ideology and look mord deeply

:07:16. > :07:19.at what attracted people to join up in the first place. We will need to

:07:20. > :07:24.work with moderate Islam right across the world to help make sure

:07:25. > :07:29.that that perversion does not increase. Above all, as he said at

:07:30. > :07:34.the end, we need to learn the lessons of this campaign, which is

:07:35. > :07:39.that we must ensure that thd Sunni population, in particular, of Iraq,

:07:40. > :07:43.has sufficient security in future and we do not have to be asked back

:07:44. > :07:49.to do this again. One of the lessons of the c`mpaign

:07:50. > :07:53.in a clearly that if air power is to make a valid contribution it must be

:07:54. > :07:58.in support of identifiable ground forces. Does he agree with le that

:07:59. > :08:02.it has been much easier to hdentify ground forces that we can stpport

:08:03. > :08:09.from the air in Iraq than it has been or will be in Syria, and as he

:08:10. > :08:14.also agreed that when Daesh is pushed out and ultimately ddfeated

:08:15. > :08:20.there will be no shortage of other groups adhering to the same

:08:21. > :08:26.poisonous totalitarian theology as Daesh, but are not as vulnerable as

:08:27. > :08:30.Daesh because they don't propose to seize and hold territory?

:08:31. > :08:35.On the first point, of course my right honourable friend is right. In

:08:36. > :08:42.Iraq we have an operation which has been led by the Iraqi government.

:08:43. > :08:45.These are Iraqi troops fighting for the freedom of their own cotntry and

:08:46. > :08:50.to protect their own people. In Syria we have some judge ground

:08:51. > :08:57.forces, the Syrian Democrathc forces, ready and willing to take on

:08:58. > :09:02.Daesh. We see the liberation of some towns and cities in the north of

:09:03. > :09:06.Syria. But I accept that thd situation in Syria is very luch more

:09:07. > :09:12.complicated. If his final qtestion was that we should despair `nd

:09:13. > :09:17.simply do nothing, I don't `ccept that. We have to confront evil where

:09:18. > :09:23.we see it in this world, and I believe that where we are able to

:09:24. > :09:27.help, given the professionalism and power of our Armed Forces, where we

:09:28. > :09:34.are able to help those nascdnt democracies who ask for our help, we

:09:35. > :09:38.should be. The horror that Daesh has inflicted

:09:39. > :09:44.on the people of Mosul sincd it captured the city in June 2014 is

:09:45. > :09:49.unimaginable. Women killed for not wearing full Islamic veils, gay men

:09:50. > :09:54.thrown from buildings. We ftlly support the operation to liberate

:09:55. > :09:59.the city, because Daesh and its evil ideology must be defeated wherever

:10:00. > :10:03.it emerges. Not only to protect the people of Iraq and Syria who have

:10:04. > :10:09.suffered such a great deal, but also to protect our citizens in the UK

:10:10. > :10:14.from the global threat posed by -- posed by Daesh. I appreciatd the

:10:15. > :10:18.answer that the Secretary of State gave for the member for Barrow in

:10:19. > :10:22.Furness. Whilst I fully accdpt that he can Diebold operational details

:10:23. > :10:27.on the floor of the house, lay I ask him to set out in greater ddtail the

:10:28. > :10:31.full extent that he expects the RAF involvement to have in the future,

:10:32. > :10:38.and how he intends to keep this House informed?

:10:39. > :10:41.A number of forces resisting with this important offensive, including

:10:42. > :10:44.militia groups and paramilitary figures. -- are assisting whth this

:10:45. > :10:49.important offensive. There `re concerns about what would h`ppen if

:10:50. > :10:53.some of these groups went into the city. Can I ask the Secretary of

:10:54. > :10:58.State what assurances he has had from the Iraqi authorities that as

:10:59. > :11:02.the Foreign Office minister indicated earlier, it is only the

:11:03. > :11:06.Iraqi army and Iraqi police that will enter Mosul?

:11:07. > :11:15.We expect this offensive to last for weeks and possibly months, but once

:11:16. > :11:18.it is completed there will be a need to secure and defend Mosul to ensure

:11:19. > :11:21.that Daesh are driven out for good and that the city does not descend

:11:22. > :11:25.into sectarian fighting. Can I ask the Secretary of State to tdll the

:11:26. > :11:29.House what has been made in way of preparation to rebuild the city

:11:30. > :11:33.including infrastructure, and its citizens. Turning to the

:11:34. > :11:37.humanitarian situation, the UN has warned that in a worst-case

:11:38. > :11:41.scenario, up to a million could be displaced as a result of thhs

:11:42. > :11:46.offensive. Will the Secretary of State set out in greater detail what

:11:47. > :11:49.humanitarian assistance the UK will provide, not just in the imlediate

:11:50. > :11:55.term but in the longer term to support any displaced peopld?

:11:56. > :11:59.We stand in solidarity against Daesh and it's wicked ideology and with

:12:00. > :12:09.the breakdown service personnel who will be assisting vitally in this

:12:10. > :12:13.campaign. -- and with the brave armed service personnel.

:12:14. > :12:17.I think she's the fit Shadow Defence Secretary in the last two and a bit

:12:18. > :12:26.years, Budgie is very welcole for all that. -- I think she is the

:12:27. > :12:32.fifth. I hope that the Housd will continue to support this opdration

:12:33. > :12:35.through thick and thin. It will be complicated, militarily, involving

:12:36. > :12:39.the liberation of a very large city, but I am grateful for her stpport.

:12:40. > :12:44.She asked me five specific questions. So far as the role of the

:12:45. > :12:50.REF is concerned it will continue to be to strike deliberate targets

:12:51. > :12:55.particular positions, command and control centres in and around Mosul,

:12:56. > :13:01.as well as offering close ahr support to the ground assault as it

:13:02. > :13:04.begins. Secondly, we will kdep the House regularly informed, mx right

:13:05. > :13:08.honourable friend the Foreign Secretary is due to give thd next of

:13:09. > :13:13.a series of regular updates, I gave one earlier in the summer, he is due

:13:14. > :13:17.to do that shortly. I certahnly undertake to keep the House fully

:13:18. > :13:24.informed. Thirdly, she asked me about some

:13:25. > :13:28.quite well founded concerns that are different groups, The Popul`r

:13:29. > :13:32.Mobilisation Front Amber Peshmerga and someone will go into ardas of

:13:33. > :13:37.Mosul where they will not bd particularly welcome -- and the

:13:38. > :13:41.Peshmerga and some others. That is being carefully evaluated bx both

:13:42. > :13:46.the Iraqi and Kurdish leadership, there are red line Straw and

:13:47. > :13:52.everybody involved is very keen that those line should not be crossed. So

:13:53. > :13:57.far as security of the city is concerned, Mozilla is a verx complex

:13:58. > :14:03.city, not entirely Sunni, btt it is very vital that the populathon there

:14:04. > :14:07.feels that the day after thd city 's liberated they have sufficidnt

:14:08. > :14:11.reassurance, nudges the reconnection of essential services but stfficient

:14:12. > :14:16.reassurance in the security of the city to be able to return.

:14:17. > :14:20.Finally, she asked about yot monetarily and assistance. Xes, we

:14:21. > :14:25.will provide, as I think I said earlier, tented accommodation and

:14:26. > :14:30.food supplies -- she asked `bout the humanitarian assistance. Thhs comes

:14:31. > :14:34.as part of the United Nations programme. People from the

:14:35. > :14:42.international development offers are there already and we can provide

:14:43. > :14:45.assistance as soon the fighting finishes.

:14:46. > :14:49.The Defence Secretary rightly commented on the contribution made

:14:50. > :14:54.by British forces to this operation and is right to do so, but would he

:14:55. > :15:00.agree that this is an opportunity to reinforce messages about thd

:15:01. > :15:05.miniature covenant and the support that Armed Forces need to h`ve from

:15:06. > :15:09.us? Would he bent his mind to the new accommodation model in

:15:10. > :15:12.particular that the Ministrx of Defence is currently considdring, in

:15:13. > :15:17.that context? I am happy to look at that `gain. As

:15:18. > :15:22.he knows, we have made great strides with the Kovtun recent years,

:15:23. > :15:27.enshrining it into law and the law of the Lance -- the covenant in

:15:28. > :15:34.recent years. We have also followed up its implementation. We are

:15:35. > :15:37.looking at new ways of provhding or assisting with military

:15:38. > :15:40.accommodation and are consulting on that at the moment, I will certainly

:15:41. > :15:47.bear my honourable friend's comments in mind.

:15:48. > :15:51.We all earnestly hope that the liberation of Mosul will be swift

:15:52. > :15:56.and decisive than that Daesh will finally be triggered out of Iraq for

:15:57. > :16:03.good. But lessons must be ldarned from previous military oper`tions of

:16:04. > :16:08.this kind in Iraq. Particul`rly the recapture of Falluja earlier this

:16:09. > :16:13.year, when militia were allowed to enter the city before Iraqi security

:16:14. > :16:18.forces. Can we ensure that this does not happen in Mosul? Becausd of a

:16:19. > :16:21.juju strategic importance in the multiethnic composition of hts

:16:22. > :16:26.inhabitants, risks are greater and the stakes cannot be repeatdd. So

:16:27. > :16:31.what discussions has the Secretary of State and his department had with

:16:32. > :16:36.the Iraqi security forces and the Iraqi Government and the Peshmerga

:16:37. > :16:39.to make sure that the 1.5 mhllion civilians, including hundreds of

:16:40. > :16:42.thousands of children, are protected both during the liberation of the

:16:43. > :16:49.city and in its rebuilding thereafter?

:16:50. > :16:53.I must thank the honourable gentleman and I hope he fully

:16:54. > :16:59.supports this operation. Thdre were four micro-Scots killed on ` beach

:17:00. > :17:10.in Tunisia a year rent a bit ago by extremists. -- four Scots khlled on

:17:11. > :17:12.a beach in Tunisia a year and a bit ago.

:17:13. > :17:17.He asked the question at thd front of everybody's mind that thdre

:17:18. > :17:22.should be no reprisals from one group or another as the cithes are

:17:23. > :17:32.liberated. We need to learn lessons each time and improve, city by city

:17:33. > :17:37.in how, as I said, reassure and can immediately be provided. Th`t is

:17:38. > :17:42.something I reviewed with the Iraqi and Kurdish authorities on ly recent

:17:43. > :17:50.visit and what I can tell hhm is everybody is aware of that

:17:51. > :17:54.particular danger. Can I thank my right honour`ble

:17:55. > :17:58.friend for his statement whhch we welcome, and it is early daxs in

:17:59. > :18:02.this conflict and we hope all goes well. I hope we can spare a thought

:18:03. > :18:05.for the journalists covering this conflict, who we now expect these

:18:06. > :18:10.days to bring information b`ck and who themselves can be very

:18:11. > :18:14.vulnerable. Can I ask my right honourable friend how he assesses

:18:15. > :18:18.the contribution of the Iranian forces and how the 80 to perhaps

:18:19. > :18:21.100,000 working in Iraq agahnst Daesh will be kept free frol the

:18:22. > :18:26.sectarian problems that havd affected that country and c`n make

:18:27. > :18:30.sure that their contribution and influence in the future can be for

:18:31. > :18:36.good rather than to add to the sectarian problems that may occur

:18:37. > :18:43.after the conflict is over? He is right to praise the

:18:44. > :18:47.contribution of the British media, who have been following preparations

:18:48. > :18:52.for the assault, some of whom are now very close to the front line. He

:18:53. > :18:55.raises an important point about a rainy and influence, not silply in

:18:56. > :18:59.Iraq but in a number of these countries. Iran has the opportunity

:19:00. > :19:03.following the signature of the nuclear agreement to show it can be

:19:04. > :19:10.a force for good in these countries and it is really up to run to live

:19:11. > :19:14.up to its undertakings. Thex have clear undertakings that thex will

:19:15. > :19:20.not intervene malevolently hn these cities as they are liberated. We

:19:21. > :19:25.expect them to stick to that. Thank you very much, Mr Spe`ker We

:19:26. > :19:29.all wish the forces embarking on this operation well. Can I `sk the

:19:30. > :19:34.Defence Secretary whether hd is aware of any arrangements bding put

:19:35. > :19:40.in place as the liberation proceeds to collect evidence, includhng

:19:41. > :19:45.forensic evidence, of crimes that have been committed? Becausd as well

:19:46. > :19:48.is defeating Daesh in this city it is really important that those

:19:49. > :19:53.responsible for the most awful crimes I had to account in ` court

:19:54. > :19:58.of law. I think the whole House wooden doors

:19:59. > :20:03.that, the answer is yes, it is for the Iraqi Government to lead on that

:20:04. > :20:07.-- I think the whole House would endorse this. The Foreign Sdcretary

:20:08. > :20:12.made clear in New York recently that we will be looking for suffhcient

:20:13. > :20:17.evidence to indict in some form or other the leaders of this b`rbarism

:20:18. > :20:21.in recent years and to see that they are held properly to account. With

:20:22. > :20:29.other countries in the coalhtion we are also looking to see how we will

:20:30. > :20:33.treat our own foreign fightdrs who are... Who may be detained `nd

:20:34. > :20:38.potentially return to this clincher, to make sure that they are `lso held

:20:39. > :20:44.to account for any crimes they may have committed -- and potentially

:20:45. > :20:48.returned to this country. That that question by the Rhght

:20:49. > :20:53.Honourable member for Leeds, with the secretary agree that thdre is a

:20:54. > :20:59.need for specialist UK input into investigating these utterly

:21:00. > :21:05.horrendous crimes? I will certainly look at th`t. We

:21:06. > :21:08.have special expertise in this country, as my right honour`ble

:21:09. > :21:14.friend probably knows better than anybody. The Iraqi Government is

:21:15. > :21:18.aware that it can call on that expertise, but I will certahnly

:21:19. > :21:23.remind them of it. Could he say a little bit more about

:21:24. > :21:27.how he would hope that the liberation of Mosul would ilpact on

:21:28. > :21:32.the campaign against Daesh hn Syria to which, quite rightly, Parliament

:21:33. > :21:37.extended consent for REF involvement last year?

:21:38. > :21:45.Daesh regard Mosul alongsidd Raqqa as one of the two centres of the

:21:46. > :21:49.caliphate. So defeating Daesh in Mosul, we expect, to be a body blow

:21:50. > :21:54.for Daesh more generally and will sever the lines of communic`tion

:21:55. > :22:00.between those two cities and, I think, make it more difficult. As a

:22:01. > :22:04.result, I hope that Raqqa whll become more isolated as the border

:22:05. > :22:10.is increasingly sealed, and the Daesh fighters who remain in Raqqa

:22:11. > :22:17.then have no other place to go. This will certainly have, I hope,

:22:18. > :22:23.military impact on Daesh, btt I hope it will also go further than that

:22:24. > :22:28.and will help finally banish the mystique of Daesh. This is not a

:22:29. > :22:29.successful organisation, it is a failing organisation that c`n and

:22:30. > :22:37.will be defeated. I would like to add my thanks to the

:22:38. > :22:42.serving members of the UK pdrsonnel for all the work they are doing in

:22:43. > :22:47.this region. But it is clear to me there is already a very serhous

:22:48. > :22:52.humanitarian crisis in Daesh controlled Mosul and I would like to

:22:53. > :22:55.ask the Secretary of State would forward plans have we been

:22:56. > :22:59.undertaking in the work to lake sure that those who have already been

:23:00. > :23:04.affected get help and humanhtarian aid, and those who sadly indvitably

:23:05. > :23:09.will be affected also receive the assistance that they need? Ht is

:23:10. > :23:14.important for the house to understand there is already a

:23:15. > :23:19.humanitarian crisis inside Losul. People there have been living under

:23:20. > :23:23.this appalling regime for over two Makridis, suffering all the

:23:24. > :23:30.barbarities associated with it. That is the situation at present, it even

:23:31. > :23:33.before the liberation has bdgun Indirect answer, the Departlent for

:23:34. > :23:36.International government has partnered with the United N`tions

:23:37. > :23:40.development programme and the Iraqi government will ensure that where

:23:41. > :23:48.civilians can get out in advance of the final assault they can be

:23:49. > :23:53.transported easily to safer areas and our agencies are then rdady to

:23:54. > :23:59.go in alongside the United Nations to make sure there are suffhcient

:24:00. > :24:08.food and medical supplies and accommodation. Further to the

:24:09. > :24:11.question, various more than 700 000 people estimated to be displaced by

:24:12. > :24:18.this conflict, more than thd population of. Save the children are

:24:19. > :24:21.concerned that we do not yet have tense to put these people up and

:24:22. > :24:27.safe Routes to make sure thdy get out of the city without being

:24:28. > :24:29.impeded by Daesh and other forces. Can he provide some reassur`nce that

:24:30. > :24:38.two of the government can do in terms of ensuring safety? These are

:24:39. > :24:44.very valid concerns that arhse from what is now becoming a war zone in

:24:45. > :24:47.and around Mosul. The Iraqi government is fully aware of the

:24:48. > :24:53.need to cope with any incre`se in the displaced population. As I said,

:24:54. > :24:56.to arrange transport for those who can get out of the city to safer

:24:57. > :25:01.areas and to be ready with additional accommodation and winter

:25:02. > :25:07.is coming, to be ready with the additional tented accommodation

:25:08. > :25:13.There has been a great deal of planning all summer for this

:25:14. > :25:20.operation and the consequences of this operation the day after Mosul

:25:21. > :25:28.is liberated. Could I ask mx right honourable friend if he knows

:25:29. > :25:31.whether Iraqi and Peshmerga field medical units are as far forward as

:25:32. > :25:39.possible so that they can tdnd for the wounded on all sides whdn they

:25:40. > :25:46.come in, and quickly? I saw myself on my recent visit some of the

:25:47. > :25:50.medical evacuation training British troops were offering to the

:25:51. > :25:56.Peshmerga themselves, showing them how to get casualties away from the

:25:57. > :26:00.front lines as rapidly as possible, that has been a big part of the

:26:01. > :26:04.training we have been able to offer. These are now relatively se`soned

:26:05. > :26:08.troops and they have been doing this kind of operation, although not on

:26:09. > :26:12.this scale, but this kind of operation now for many months in

:26:13. > :26:19.other towns and villages, both in the north of Iraq and along the

:26:20. > :26:23.Euphrates valley and they cdrtainly understand the importance of getting

:26:24. > :26:27.casualties of the battlefield as quickly as possible. Taking and

:26:28. > :26:34.holding all the territory h`s been central to the philosophy of Daesh.

:26:35. > :26:38.In contrast to some of their earlier manifestations of this kind of

:26:39. > :26:43.ideology. Can I ask the Secretary of State what is the next step in terms

:26:44. > :26:50.of reducing the territory that will be held by Daesh after this

:26:51. > :26:54.operation, as well as combating the ideology, which is not to jtstify

:26:55. > :26:57.what they have done but also the killing of innocent civilians in

:26:58. > :27:03.recent years from Mali to Ttnisia and France and many other countries.

:27:04. > :27:07., can the next step in Iraq is to push Daesh beyond the borders which

:27:08. > :27:13.would mean some mopping up operations in the north of Syria, to

:27:14. > :27:20.the north and west of Mosul and clearing Daesh out of some remaining

:27:21. > :27:29.smaller towns along the Euphrates. But already as members of the

:27:30. > :27:34.coalition, counter Daesh ministers and we meet again next week in

:27:35. > :27:37.Paris, we already seen what can be done to counter Daesh more globally,

:27:38. > :27:41.whether we can set up structures now that will enable us to respond much

:27:42. > :27:46.more quickly and come to thd aid of each other if Daesh should resurrect

:27:47. > :28:00.itself in different parts of Africa, or indeed in the Far East. Lr

:28:01. > :28:04.Speaker, given the al-Abadi regime's inability to reform wouldn't it be

:28:05. > :28:11.wise to plan on the basis that Iraq is a unitary state is unlikdly to

:28:12. > :28:17.survive on more likely to break into its constituent confessional and

:28:18. > :28:22.ethnic parts? I do not think with respect it is for us in this house

:28:23. > :28:27.to question the integrity of Iraq or start designing the different shape

:28:28. > :28:32.to Syria or Iraq. We tried that a hundred years ago and indeed I think

:28:33. > :28:36.it was a Conservative backbdncher, Sykes, who first drew the lhne that

:28:37. > :28:43.runs between Syria and Iraq and presented it to Prime Minister

:28:44. > :28:48.Askwith. He I know from his own ministerial experience, he knows how

:28:49. > :28:57.frustrating the pace of reform has been in Iraq written, to get the

:28:58. > :29:04.security and policing right to dedicate sufficient powers to

:29:05. > :29:08.governors and ensure there hs, that the Army is properly accountable.

:29:09. > :29:13.Slowly those reforms are behng put in place and I think we havd to

:29:14. > :29:18.continue doing what we are doing, which is accepting these thhngs are

:29:19. > :29:25.slow but it is a democratic government in Iraq and genuhnely at

:29:26. > :29:33.the moment represents variots groups in Iraq and we have to work with it.

:29:34. > :29:41.On driving out ices from Ir`q, can I ask him what assurances he can give

:29:42. > :29:46.the house that there will not be a repeat of the situation in 2006 and

:29:47. > :29:56.2007 that they are allowed to re-emerge from the desert, what

:29:57. > :29:59.steps are taken to deal with that? And when we visited Iraq a couple of

:30:00. > :30:04.years ago we were appalled by the dearth of intelligence and what

:30:05. > :30:07.assurances that there has bden significant improvement in

:30:08. > :30:14.intelligence? On the first point nobody in the coalition, thdre are

:30:15. > :30:19.some 60 countries in this coalition, nobody in the coalition wants to be

:30:20. > :30:24.back in a rock doing this again in five or ten years. So we nedd to

:30:25. > :30:29.ensure that the political sdttlement that is left in Iraq when D`esh is

:30:30. > :30:35.pushed out of the country is in during. And it is as embedddd as it

:30:36. > :30:41.can be and that both Sunnis and Shia can rely on sufficient security to

:30:42. > :30:45.get back to the cities and towns and villages and live their livds. We

:30:46. > :30:54.were there for the continuing to encourage this process of political

:30:55. > :31:06.reform which in many respects has been behind military progress. We

:31:07. > :31:09.will continue to encourage them After the fall of Baghdad in the

:31:10. > :31:13.Iraq war the Allies were rotndly criticised for not having a plan of

:31:14. > :31:16.reconstruction creating a v`cuum which was extremely dangerots, as we

:31:17. > :31:22.know. Is the confident that after the fall of Mosul they will be an

:31:23. > :31:34.adequate plan for reconstruction put in place immediately? As I said

:31:35. > :31:37.before this is an Iraqi led plan, this is an Iraqi led campaign but

:31:38. > :31:42.from anything I have seen from visiting Baghdad recently, from

:31:43. > :31:51.anything I have seen, the government is planning now to get the security

:31:52. > :31:54.into Mosul and to ensure th`t the essentials of life are restored

:31:55. > :31:59.there as quickly as possibld, working through the local

:32:00. > :32:05.administration, the governor of Nineveh province to ensure that

:32:06. > :32:09.people feel safe. We would dncourage the process politically and we will

:32:10. > :32:18.also back it materially with assistance from the Departmdnt for

:32:19. > :32:21.International Development. The Secretary of State will be well

:32:22. > :32:28.aware of some of the horrifhc war crimes that have been committed

:32:29. > :32:31.against the Yazidi women in Mosul and I want him to speak abott

:32:32. > :32:38.specialist services he and his colleagues will be able to provide

:32:39. > :32:39.for these women in that sittation? The Department for Internathonal

:32:40. > :32:47.Development has some specialist programmes already in preparation to

:32:48. > :32:50.deal with some of the particular victims of the barbarity th`t we

:32:51. > :32:55.have seen. It's also import`nt that those who are responsible for that

:32:56. > :33:00.particular barbarism, if it was done on a genocidal basis specifhcally

:33:01. > :33:03.against the CDs, that they `re properly held to account and that is

:33:04. > :33:12.something we are working on with other members of the coalithon. --

:33:13. > :33:16.Yazidi. It is good to hear `bout positive progress, particul`rly the

:33:17. > :33:25.important role being taken by the Peshmerga Kurds. Can he tell the

:33:26. > :33:33.house what role the UK forcds the in training these forces? It is perhaps

:33:34. > :33:38.worth saying that when we rdfer to progress we are at the very start of

:33:39. > :33:44.this campaign to encircle and then liberate Mosul. I remind thd house

:33:45. > :33:48.again that this may not, thdn they will be setbacks along the way. We

:33:49. > :33:53.have trained a large number of Peshmerga forces as well as Iraqi

:33:54. > :33:58.troops over the last two ye`rs and I think we can be proud of thd role

:33:59. > :34:05.the British Army has played particularly in training

:34:06. > :34:11.particularly in dealing with improvised explosive devices which

:34:12. > :34:15.have been found in a much l`rger scale than any previous campaign we

:34:16. > :34:22.have come across. And in helping them to deal with that and helping

:34:23. > :34:28.them to deal with evacuation to face snipers, it has been a conshstent

:34:29. > :34:34.training effort over the last two years and I have as a result the

:34:35. > :34:41.Peshmerga are better able to deal with what will be a very difficult

:34:42. > :34:48.salt. Mr Speaker, this conflict is taking place in a globalised world

:34:49. > :34:53.with social media. Can the Secretary of State take this opportunhty to

:34:54. > :34:59.send out a very clear message that although we have not seen the crimes

:35:00. > :35:04.and atrocities carried out hn Mosul by Daesh, there will be terrible

:35:05. > :35:13.things portrayed from this conflict which could take time over weeks and

:35:14. > :35:21.months. It is an important part of things happening around the world.

:35:22. > :35:23.Cobb I am grateful for the honourable gentleman, who h`s

:35:24. > :35:28.experience in chairing the Foreign Affairs Committee in the last

:35:29. > :35:35.parliament or two and he is right, there are horrors being perpetrated

:35:36. > :35:37.every day in Mosul Malonga for the liberation and the assault has

:35:38. > :35:45.started. We should not forgdt that some of these horrors being Kirk

:35:46. > :35:48.Triplett Onnarin citizens, from hostages in 2014 and others who have

:35:49. > :35:54.been subject to atrocities dver since. And I think it is very

:35:55. > :35:59.important that the world dods not forget just how evil Daesh has been

:36:00. > :36:06.in the extremism to which they have gone in punishing, or killing those

:36:07. > :36:15.who happen not to accept thd perversion that they believd in

:36:16. > :36:18.Connor militia has been relhed on to help defeat the death cult that

:36:19. > :36:28.concerns have been raised on the involvement of Shia militias in

:36:29. > :36:38.liberating Mosul based on things that happened while vibrating

:36:39. > :36:42.Falluja. Gunn it is a very legitimate concern, rooted not just

:36:43. > :36:48.in some of the earlier oper`tions but of course in earlier conflicts

:36:49. > :36:53.and these were assurances that I pressed for and examined very

:36:54. > :36:58.closely in my recent visit. There are red lines drawn as to which

:36:59. > :37:06.units are allowed to go where as in settlement operation begins. And all

:37:07. > :37:10.I can say is that everybody in Baghdad and the Sunnis and Shia

:37:11. > :37:16.members of the Iraqi governlent are very much aware of the need at the

:37:17. > :37:22.end of this operation in wh`t is essentially a cine city but not

:37:23. > :37:27.entirely, the need to have done this in a way that gives the majority

:37:28. > :37:31.Sunnis the conference to return to their city and knowledge thdy will

:37:32. > :37:37.be to live safely there thereafter. -- confidence.

:37:38. > :37:44.As the offensive continues ht is likely that many Daesh fighters will

:37:45. > :37:46.try to blend in with the local civilian population. Can thd

:37:47. > :37:50.Secretary of State tell the house whether any specialist training can

:37:51. > :37:54.be undertaken for the Peshmdrga and other forces to ensure that if that

:37:55. > :37:59.happens, that any terrorist atrocities that could emergd later

:38:00. > :38:04.on in the longer term from within civilian life are limited?

:38:05. > :38:11.That is an important point, we don't yet know no weather Daesh whll stand

:38:12. > :38:16.and fight or whether they whll try to melt away. All we know at the

:38:17. > :38:20.moment is that Mosul is a vdry well defended cities, preparations for

:38:21. > :38:25.its defence have gone on for as long as preparations for its ass`ult All

:38:26. > :38:31.the signs are that Daesh will defend it for some time. He makes ` valid

:38:32. > :38:36.point about the training, there are specialist units in the Irapi forces

:38:37. > :38:41.that are trained in this particular counterterrorism work and wd have

:38:42. > :38:47.every interest in making sure that the Daesh leadership in particular,

:38:48. > :38:51.as well as the rank-and-fild of the terrorists, are detained whdrever

:38:52. > :38:57.possible. Is accessible ground offenshve will

:38:58. > :39:02.require huge improvement in the morale and fighting spirit of Iraqi

:39:03. > :39:06.forces. What Porter is the TK handed to allies made in making th`t

:39:07. > :39:11.improvement to their morale, and is he confident he can continud this

:39:12. > :39:14.work so that Daesh has no rdspite and no chance to re-establish

:39:15. > :39:20.itself? I was impressed by the confhdence of

:39:21. > :39:24.Iraqi commanders on my most recent visit compared with their approach

:39:25. > :39:29.to all this, say, a year ago. They have been encouraged by the relative

:39:30. > :39:35.ease with which cities and towns along the Euphrates River V`lley

:39:36. > :39:40.were liberated and certainlx a few weeks ago, they were very mtch

:39:41. > :39:44.looking forward to the Mosul campaign, regarding it as something

:39:45. > :39:50.that is difficult but doabld. They have that confidence. The Iraqi

:39:51. > :39:55.troops that I have seen being trained by our own forces are a very

:39:56. > :40:05.different army to the one that first flight in front of the Daesh advance

:40:06. > :40:08.in the spring and summer of 201 . Festival, I would like to whsh our

:40:09. > :40:13.Armed Forces a safe and successful campaign. We have heard that to a

:40:14. > :40:18.million refugees or civilians may flee Mosul, many of them chhldren

:40:19. > :40:21.who will have been deprived of education, suffered the

:40:22. > :40:26.psychological impact of warfare and in the case of young teenagdrs,

:40:27. > :40:30.indeed, may be screened by the Iraqi forces as they come out. Wh`t

:40:31. > :40:35.ability does the UK Governmdnt have on the ground directly to monitor

:40:36. > :40:41.the safety, education and hdalth of young children?

:40:42. > :40:46.Certainly the cancelling of children and child protection will bd central

:40:47. > :40:50.to the work of the Internathonal development Department -- the

:40:51. > :40:55.counselling of children. Adtlts the unaided Nations programme after the

:40:56. > :40:59.liberation of Mosul. -- and also the United Nations programme. This is a

:41:00. > :41:03.military assault on a very large city, it is likely to be a war zone

:41:04. > :41:08.for some weeks and months ahead The Iraqi forces have done the best to

:41:09. > :41:14.warn of the population of what lies ahead but this will be diffhcult and

:41:15. > :41:25.they will make every effort to protect the civilian population from

:41:26. > :41:30.the assault itself. As chairman of the all-partx group

:41:31. > :41:34.the Kurdistan region, can I thank the honourable member for B`rrow in

:41:35. > :41:37.Furness for bringing this qtestion and visiting the region, and can I

:41:38. > :41:42.personally thank my former colleagues in the Royal Air Force

:41:43. > :41:47.for their service? Can I ask the Secretary of State, in terms of

:41:48. > :41:52.military support to the Peshmerga, that is ongoing, but can he please

:41:53. > :41:56.update on what rehabilitation and medical support there might be for

:41:57. > :42:00.the Peshmerga, particularly bearing in mind the wonderful facilhty at

:42:01. > :42:04.Headley Court for any injurdd Peshmerga fighters.

:42:05. > :42:09.He is right to pay tribute to the Royal Air Force, we have totched on

:42:10. > :42:12.the role of the British Armx. Over the last two years since thd House

:42:13. > :42:19.gave authority for strikes hn Iraq we have seen the most intense

:42:20. > :42:22.campaign is being managed bx the Royal Air Force from both Akrotiri

:42:23. > :42:27.and other bases in the Gulf at a tempo we have not seen sincd the

:42:28. > :42:31.first Gulf War. I know the house would like to pay tribute not simply

:42:32. > :42:35.to the pilots who fly the planes but to the huge back-up operation

:42:36. > :42:41.sitting behind them. His particular point and medical

:42:42. > :42:44.support, perhaps he will allow me to return to him.

:42:45. > :42:48.The Secretary of State is absolutely right to stress that this is an

:42:49. > :42:51.Iraqi led campaign, that our Armed Forces are there because it will

:42:52. > :42:55.make material difference to our own safety here. On that basis can he

:42:56. > :43:00.tell us what he can do and we can all do to ensure that peopld in this

:43:01. > :43:04.country realise that this is a campaign that we are engaged in not

:43:05. > :43:15.because it is a war against Islam but because it is a war being taken

:43:16. > :43:18.to support democratically elected Muslim government against those who

:43:19. > :43:23.would prefer that Government for their own barbaric ends.

:43:24. > :43:29.We all have to continue to remind our constituents as to why we got

:43:30. > :43:35.involved back in the summer of 914, of 2014. The horrors inflicted on

:43:36. > :43:43.hostages, the barbarity of treatment of women, of gay people in Daesh

:43:44. > :43:48.areas and the indiscriminatd slaughter they have inflictdd, as we

:43:49. > :43:52.have seen in Western Europe on people whether they shared the

:43:53. > :43:57.Islamic faith or not. We have to remind people of why we are there.

:43:58. > :44:05.And then I think we have to do much more to support moderate Islam in

:44:06. > :44:08.some of the good work being done in this country and elsewhere,

:44:09. > :44:12.programmes run here, progralmes being run in other countries

:44:13. > :44:16.including Saudi Arabia about how we de-radicalisation 's who might be

:44:17. > :44:24.tempted to join this kind of extremist terrorism future.

:44:25. > :44:27.I welcome the start of this operation but, of course, it is

:44:28. > :44:31.worth bearing in mind that ht could turn into a firefight in a large

:44:32. > :44:36.urban area with an absolutely fanatical enemy with absolutely no

:44:37. > :44:39.respect at all for human rights law. How satisfied is the Secret`ry of

:44:40. > :44:43.State that the forces taking part have the ability to conduct the

:44:44. > :44:47.operation according to currdnt rules of engagement and that meastres will

:44:48. > :44:50.be in place allowing civili`ns to flee but make sure that those

:44:51. > :44:58.colleagues in Daesh will also be identified and captured? -- those

:44:59. > :45:02.cowards in Daesh? He is right to warn them that this will be a

:45:03. > :45:07.firefight, a series of firefights. I have been at pains to indic`te that

:45:08. > :45:15.this will be difficult in a very crowded urban area. Inevitably there

:45:16. > :45:23.will be damage and no doubt civilian casualties as well. So far `s rules

:45:24. > :45:27.of engagement are concerned, the Iraqi Government has issued the

:45:28. > :45:32.coalition that its troops are bound by the rules of internation`l

:45:33. > :45:35.humanitarian law, the Genev` conventions, just as Western forces

:45:36. > :45:45.are and, indeed, some of th`t has been part of the training that we

:45:46. > :45:50.have been able to offer. The UNHCR Iraq representative was

:45:51. > :45:53.reported on the BBC as saying a few days ago, if the situation hs

:45:54. > :45:58.involved in a proper way, everything will be controlled by the Iraqi

:45:59. > :46:07.army. People will not be allowed to flee Mosul. What will peopld will

:46:08. > :46:11.not be allowed to flee Mosul mean in practice? It is already quite

:46:12. > :46:24.difficult for the civilian population to get out of Mosul. I

:46:25. > :46:31.can reassure him that the Iraqi Government is ready to support

:46:32. > :46:36.civilians who can't get out of Mosul to get them too much safer `reas won

:46:37. > :46:41.away from the front line, and the United Nations, as he said, will be

:46:42. > :46:44.working with its agencies to make sure that help is brought forward to

:46:45. > :46:51.those civilians who escape `s quickly as possible.

:46:52. > :46:55.Television news coverage yesterday seems to suggest firstly th`t the

:46:56. > :46:59.balance of forces between the Iraqi army and the Peshmergas on the one

:47:00. > :47:04.hand and Daesh on the other was something like ten to one and that,

:47:05. > :47:10.secondly, the Iraqi army had access to very heavy armour whereas the

:47:11. > :47:17.Peshmerga did not. Both these things correct or was I not paying enough

:47:18. > :47:20.attention? I think he pays puite a lot of attention to most thhngs and

:47:21. > :47:27.I would not want to accuse him of inattention. I am not sure of the

:47:28. > :47:34.exact percentages that he qtotes. Having visited that area recently

:47:35. > :47:42.and been out with the Peshmdrga and the training they receive, they have

:47:43. > :47:49.sufficient equipment to participate in this particular operation and a

:47:50. > :47:53.well-defined role within it. I would like to associate myself with the

:47:54. > :47:57.comments in support of the @rmed Forces, but also sent my support and

:47:58. > :48:02.prayers to the people of Mosul who will be living through the

:48:03. > :48:06.operation. After Ramadi, thd industrial uses IEDs to unddrmine

:48:07. > :48:10.peoples lives as they tried to move back into their homes came hnto use.

:48:11. > :48:13.But had huge human casualtids associated with it from within the

:48:14. > :48:19.Iraqi forces and we have very specialist expertise in that. The

:48:20. > :48:22.scale of Mosul, with 1.7 million people, we can only imagine what

:48:23. > :48:27.they are doing. What additional support we giving two Iraqis in

:48:28. > :48:33.terms of training to deal whth the counter IED operation?

:48:34. > :48:39.This is a much larger dimension to this conflict than previous ones. We

:48:40. > :48:43.have seen industrial scale tse of IED in cities like Ramadi and

:48:44. > :48:51.elsewhere, where IED has bedn built into the walls of houses, concealed

:48:52. > :48:57.in rubble, put under the desks in schools and colleges. It is

:48:58. > :49:02.something that we have had to help the Iraqi army learn how to deal

:49:03. > :49:09.with. It is a huge part of the training effort we have put in and

:49:10. > :49:15.the building partner capacity centres and the four them across

:49:16. > :49:19.Iraq has been dedicated to counter IED training, helping troops to

:49:20. > :49:26.recognise different types of IED, to recognise traps that maybe laid

:49:27. > :49:32.within IED devices and helphng them when they have identified the IED to

:49:33. > :49:40.clear it. The previous Government pushed a

:49:41. > :49:45.sectarian agenda against thd Sony 's which led to the rise of Dadsh.

:49:46. > :49:54.Given the composition of Mosul being predominantly Sunni, Turkey has

:49:55. > :49:59.indicated it will be sending troops into Mosul to ensure the protection

:50:00. > :50:06.of Sunni rights? We want to make sure that Sunni rights are protected

:50:07. > :50:09.and it is incumbent on the Hraqi government which has Sunni `nd Shia

:50:10. > :50:19.and Kurdish representation hn it to ensure that all parts of Ir`q are

:50:20. > :50:21.fully protected. It is the `im of the Government and the reforms that

:50:22. > :50:27.it is driving through to devolve more power to the Governors

:50:28. > :50:34.themselves, to the governor of the province in which Mosul sets, to

:50:35. > :50:41.ensure that he and the local administration can provide that kind

:50:42. > :50:45.of free assurance. It is crhtical to the campaign that Sunnis in Iraq

:50:46. > :50:53.understand that the Iraqi forces are for them all, for them as mtch as

:50:54. > :50:57.for the Shias. There am surd the Defence Secretary will agred with me

:50:58. > :51:01.that one of the positive developments is working togdther of

:51:02. > :51:07.the Peshmerga and the Iraqi forces against Daesh for the first time. I

:51:08. > :51:09.wonder if he could suggest ways in which that constructive co-operation

:51:10. > :51:14.might be continued into othdr operations?

:51:15. > :51:18.I think that cooperation is essential, both for the libdration

:51:19. > :51:23.of Mosul, the city which sits very near to the Kurdish region, but also

:51:24. > :51:25.for the future of Iraq. I al encouraged by the recent

:51:26. > :51:32.negotiations over the distrhbution of the oil revenue and some of the

:51:33. > :51:40.other accommodations that h`ve been reached between the Prime Mhnister

:51:41. > :51:43.of that area and the Prime Linister in Baghdad, which I hope will bode

:51:44. > :51:51.well for the integrity of Iraq as well as the future of the Ktrdish

:51:52. > :51:56.and Iraqi populations. I also support our Government smack

:51:57. > :52:00.role in this operation. There are already reports that Daesh `re

:52:01. > :52:05.threatening to use civilians as human shields and execute anyone

:52:06. > :52:12.trying to flee. Can the Secretary of State confirm that this is `ccurate,

:52:13. > :52:16.and can anything be done to try to counter this particular forl of

:52:17. > :52:21.barbarism? I have seen reports along those

:52:22. > :52:26.lines of Daesh being prepardd to put women and children into milhtary

:52:27. > :52:30.buildings in order to prevent them becoming a target. We are ddaling

:52:31. > :52:35.with the ruthless enemy that has not hesitated over to agree as to kill

:52:36. > :52:43.anybody, women, children of fellow Muslims. There is very little we can

:52:44. > :52:47.do to control that other th`n to show our absolute determination

:52:48. > :52:49.whatever the cost, whatever the difficulty, to deal with Dadsh and

:52:50. > :53:03.get it out of Iraq altogethdr. I will take the honourable lady

:53:04. > :53:06.first. Tomorrow, October 19, the Public Accounts Committee h`s summon

:53:07. > :53:11.witnesses from the Department of committees and local governlent to

:53:12. > :53:14.explain reports that the troubled families programme has not been

:53:15. > :53:20.achieving its aims. Since October five my committee has been `sking

:53:21. > :53:24.the development to release six evaluation reports and after much

:53:25. > :53:29.delay they were finally published at 6p yesterday. These reports amount

:53:30. > :53:35.to 800 pages of evidence and I'm very concerned that in this tardy

:53:36. > :53:39.release of this important information the government hs trying

:53:40. > :53:43.to obfuscate proper Parliamdntary scrutiny of an important and

:53:44. > :53:49.flagship government programle and the money spent on it. I sedk your

:53:50. > :53:53.support, and guidance, about how we can ensure that ministers are

:53:54. > :53:57.reminded of the importance of providing proper information to this

:53:58. > :54:04.house so we can carry out otr task for citizens and taxpayers hn

:54:05. > :54:08.scrutinising government bushness. I thank the lady for her Gazzh in

:54:09. > :54:11.providing me advance notice of her point of order. There is a clear

:54:12. > :54:15.expectation that government departments should cooperatd fully

:54:16. > :54:19.with select committee enquiries not least enquiries of the commhttee of

:54:20. > :54:25.Public accounts and should furnish information in a timely fashion

:54:26. > :54:31.This does not appear to havd happened in this case. If for any

:54:32. > :54:34.reason there is a problem the Department should really get this to

:54:35. > :54:40.the committee said can is so wishes adjust its schedule. I am stre her

:54:41. > :54:43.concerns have been heard on the Treasury bench and will be conveyed

:54:44. > :54:46.to the relevant ministers that meanwhile the honourable lady has

:54:47. > :54:50.made her point clearly and she has done so on the record. Quitd how the

:54:51. > :55:00.honourable lady and her comlittee wished now to proceed in thd light

:55:01. > :55:04.of the untimely provision of a vast tranche of information is of course

:55:05. > :55:09.for them to consider. On thd whole one would expect the committee would

:55:10. > :55:17.undertake its work without `lso considering chamber devices for

:55:18. > :55:24.scrutiny of ministers. The two however are not automatically

:55:25. > :55:29.necessarily mutually exclushve. So if at some point either the

:55:30. > :55:36.honourable lady or any other member wishes to probe a minister hn the

:55:37. > :55:39.chamber on the substance of an issue or the reason for the fears and

:55:40. > :55:45.excessive delay, it is open to a member to seek that. I make no

:55:46. > :55:51.promises to whether it would be successful but it is open to

:55:52. > :55:54.members. But the key point hs that committees of the government to

:55:55. > :55:58.account and it is up to the government to cooperate with the

:55:59. > :56:07.committee, not only in accordance with the letter, but in accordance

:56:08. > :56:12.with the spirit. I seek your guidance on information provided to

:56:13. > :56:16.MPs in written answers regarding military matters. It is customary

:56:17. > :56:19.and necessary of course not to provide information about some

:56:20. > :56:22.security matters to members. No doubt that is why in answer to a

:56:23. > :56:28.written question about whether the UK Government would display online

:56:29. > :56:32.the flight paths of Russian planes over Syria was told that information

:56:33. > :56:36.can be made available for sdcurity reasons. But could you advise me

:56:37. > :56:41.whether I can challenge this ruling given that this information is

:56:42. > :56:44.relatively available inform`tion for commercial planes, the Russhans know

:56:45. > :56:51.they are being monitored and indeed they have to be to avoid conflict

:56:52. > :56:57.over Syrian airspace. , I h`d no advance notice of this and H know

:56:58. > :57:00.the honourable gentleman is inclined to invest the web as I don't possess

:57:01. > :57:05.that I'm disinclined to respond substantively on the matter at the

:57:06. > :57:12.moment. But my advice is th`t at this stage his best course hs to

:57:13. > :57:17.write to the Secretary of State and the driver to elicit a written

:57:18. > :57:22.reply, which you can then study and evaluate, or alternatively to ride

:57:23. > :57:27.to the Secretary of State and request a meeting to discuss this

:57:28. > :57:34.matter. If that route does not avail him then he can come back to the

:57:35. > :57:37.chamber and also I have a strong hunch he will do so. If there are no

:57:38. > :57:41.further points of order the appetite has been satisfied at least for now.

:57:42. > :57:56.We come to the ten minute c`ll. , I ask about the bill to bring in the

:57:57. > :58:00.central reporting of agency staff to make provision for the central

:58:01. > :58:08.reporting and recording of `bsence from work of permanent NHS

:58:09. > :58:15.employees. The NHS has a budget of ?160.4 billion, this is divhded

:58:16. > :58:22.between NHS providers including 11 NHS trusts in England. Incltding Wye

:58:23. > :58:27.Valley NHS Trust which administers my constituency in North

:58:28. > :58:33.Herefordshire. The NHS Trust budget was 183.67 million pounds, but most

:58:34. > :58:42.of the NHS Trust expenditurd is on staffing. Last year it costs Wye

:58:43. > :58:46.Valley trust ?115.4 million or 3% of the expenditure. This includes

:58:47. > :58:51.all staff, permanent, bank `nd agency. Agency staff cost more than

:58:52. > :58:58.permanent staff, directly elployed by the NHS, because private

:58:59. > :59:01.companies dictate what publhc NHS pays for them. The government is

:59:02. > :59:09.working to limit this costing the NHS by introducing a cap on fees

:59:10. > :59:13.paid to agency workers. I w`nt to support and congratulate thd

:59:14. > :59:16.government in its work to lhmit the increasing privatisation of NHS

:59:17. > :59:22.because I'm against the principle that private agencies can control

:59:23. > :59:26.NHS spending but I don't on the NHS open for abuse which can be the case

:59:27. > :59:30.under our current system. I propose that a database of all workdrs

:59:31. > :59:36.within the NHS, agency, dirdct employees, exists, and takes note of

:59:37. > :59:44.when they are working on cl`iming sick pay. This data already exists

:59:45. > :59:48.within NHS bodies and I would like it to benefit the whole villages.

:59:49. > :59:53.There is too much reliance on locum and agency workers. We although

:59:54. > :59:56.that's our NHS staff are sole of the most hard-working individual

:59:57. > :00:01.striving to keep communities healthier and safer there is a

:00:02. > :00:06.struggle to fill certain gaps, either due to lack of indivhduals or

:00:07. > :00:10.due to lack of specific skills. This is a particular problem in rural

:00:11. > :00:13.areas where there are just fewer people with specific skills and some

:00:14. > :00:18.NHS bodies require. This is compounded by the fact that those

:00:19. > :00:25.who are qualified can becomd agency workers and do the same job for more

:00:26. > :00:30.money. This leaves the NHS dmploying more agency staff in turn. Between

:00:31. > :00:38.February and April the Wye Valley trust for bad two health care

:00:39. > :00:44.assistants and over five agdncy nurses and used agency workdrs for

:00:45. > :00:54.an average of 1500 shifts every month. An average of ?746,000 a

:00:55. > :00:59.month, ?8.9 million a year on agency staff for the two categories alone.

:01:00. > :01:04.cap the amount paid to agencies for cap the amount paid to agencies for

:01:05. > :01:12.their staff is so important. The agency worked cost ?3.3 billion last

:01:13. > :01:17.year and although and so far this year the price cap a safe ?300

:01:18. > :01:21.million as the Minister of State for Public health said in response to a

:01:22. > :01:30.question on September 12, although I have heard that this is now much

:01:31. > :01:33.closer to ?650 million. In order to support the excellent work the we

:01:34. > :01:37.should require agency staff to be centrally registered on the NHS

:01:38. > :01:41.accordingly, and particularly including their sick pay daxs

:01:42. > :01:46.because agency workers do not have their information detailed on the

:01:47. > :01:52.central NHS. Staff can be dhrectly employed within the trust and also

:01:53. > :01:54.registered with an agency. These two employers do not share information

:01:55. > :02:03.about their workers even though the agency workers are based within an

:02:04. > :02:06.NHS organisation. People sax not enough staff within the NHS but it

:02:07. > :02:11.is clear there are if we can then properly. This also demonstrates

:02:12. > :02:15.which areas we will need to focus on when training and resources so that

:02:16. > :02:22.we can train the right people going forward. The vast majority of

:02:23. > :02:25.workers who are employed by both such organisations are hard,working

:02:26. > :02:30.and honest but there are always some who seek to abuse the systel. In

:02:31. > :02:35.2015 the nurse who worked for an NHS hospital trust was struck off after

:02:36. > :02:43.making ?10,000 working agency shifts while off work due to sickndss. This

:02:44. > :02:46.is not alone in case. These cases cost the NHS not just through

:02:47. > :02:52.fraudulent sick pay but also to the public purse and we lose th`t

:02:53. > :02:58.individual. So the NHS is aware of this abuse of the payroll, `nd sick

:02:59. > :03:03.leave fraud, and has put out leaflets members to be award.

:03:04. > :03:08.However without essential sxstem for data sharing, between bodies, the

:03:09. > :03:11.organisations can only rely on hearsay to report abuse of the

:03:12. > :03:16.system. This is of course a good starting point but it doesn't

:03:17. > :03:20.eliminate the risk of fraudtlent activities and we need this money to

:03:21. > :03:26.be saved for patients. It is a lack of communication between bodies that

:03:27. > :03:29.the NHS needs to rectify and we need to combat those are taking `dvantage

:03:30. > :03:33.of the system by making the information more accessible to

:03:34. > :03:39.employees about their emploxees so that they are paid fairly and the

:03:40. > :03:42.NHS does not suffer unnecessarily. This bill would support the

:03:43. > :03:47.government 's hard work in reducing nursery costs to the NHS by making

:03:48. > :03:54.it harder for those taking `dvantage of the system to do so. The bill

:03:55. > :03:57.would register on agency st`ff used across the NHS, which is kept

:03:58. > :04:03.centrally, and this register will include those staff who are off sick

:04:04. > :04:09.and claiming sick pay. If this data is called them the abuse can be

:04:10. > :04:13.spotted. The small cost in pulling agency data is far outweighdd by the

:04:14. > :04:18.risk of abuse and lack of control. All of this data after all `lready

:04:19. > :04:24.exists, it is simply a case of sharing it. NHS employees h`ve their

:04:25. > :04:29.sick pay is stored and reported along and for the Wye Vallex trust

:04:30. > :04:33.last year it was just 4.3%. By the same yardstick agency workers paid

:04:34. > :04:37.by a public body and should have their sick pay stored and shared as

:04:38. > :04:41.well. There is no better wax of managing this enormous agency bill

:04:42. > :04:47.banned by ensuring the data is used wisely. People talk against

:04:48. > :04:51.privatisation of the NHS yet this is exactly what will happen if the NHS

:04:52. > :04:57.loses control of its staff requirements. It is the agencies who

:04:58. > :05:01.are providing the staff are patients need for their safety. This must be

:05:02. > :05:05.controlled otherwise we will never be able to achieve the worthy target

:05:06. > :05:11.of getting the right page for the right people doing the right jobs,

:05:12. > :05:19.and our NHS staff deserve no less. I beg to move. The question is that

:05:20. > :05:31.the honourable member have leave to bring in the bill? The Ayes had yet.

:05:32. > :05:44.Who will prepare and bring hn the bill? I will. LAUGHTER

:05:45. > :06:08.The lonesome cowboy. NHS st`ff reporting and registration bill We

:06:09. > :06:13.now come to the motion in the name of the Secretary of State for

:06:14. > :06:20.culture media and sport rel`ting to broadcasting. I will call hhm to

:06:21. > :06:23.move the amendment formerly at the end of the debate and I now call the

:06:24. > :06:33.secretary of state to move the motion. Madam Deputy Speaker, can I

:06:34. > :06:36.start by an apology. I am afraid that although I am delighted to be

:06:37. > :06:41.here today for the debate I will have to leave at some point this

:06:42. > :06:45.afternoon because we have as you will know a magnificent celdbration

:06:46. > :06:51.of our Olympic and Paralymphc athletes... And whilst it w`s an

:06:52. > :06:53.enormous pleasure to be in Manchester yesterday I also am

:06:54. > :06:57.looking forward to seeing them again today.

:06:58. > :07:03.I hope you and the House will forgive me for that. Can I `lso

:07:04. > :07:08.welcome the right honourabld gentleman to his place, honourable

:07:09. > :07:12.gentleman, I will get that right. It is a great pleasure to see him

:07:13. > :07:16.opposite me and I am sure wd will enjoy many happy debates across the

:07:17. > :07:22.dispatch box. Madam Deputy Speaker, the BBC is the

:07:23. > :07:26.best broadcaster in the world. It is widely recognised as search

:07:27. > :07:33.throughout the world. Despite what some people would have the world

:07:34. > :07:38.believe, this Government believes that the BBC is one of our greatest

:07:39. > :07:42.institutions and must be nurtured and cherished. We receive more than

:07:43. > :07:48.190 submissions for our consultation, which shows how deep

:07:49. > :07:54.the people care about the BBC - 190,000. It is quite right that the

:07:55. > :08:00.changes we make to the BBC strengthen it, secure its ftnding,

:08:01. > :08:03.protected, decouple the charter from the electoral cycle and enstre that

:08:04. > :08:08.the BBC cannot only survive but thrive.

:08:09. > :08:12.Of course. I thank her for giving way. She has talked about providing

:08:13. > :08:17.appropriate funding for the BBC making sure it is funded well, but

:08:18. > :08:23.at the same time the Governlent has imposed the costs of the ovdr 7 s

:08:24. > :08:27.licence fee on the BBC and has also imposed the costs of overse`s

:08:28. > :08:32.monitoring for the security services and the Foreign Office on the BBC,

:08:33. > :08:36.which are inappropriate. Wh`t did she had to say to that?

:08:37. > :08:40.Can I thank the honourable gentleman, who I very much dnjoyed

:08:41. > :08:46.sparring with over the disp`tch box as well. I will, to the funding

:08:47. > :08:50.later, but I believe that this funding settlement is a strong

:08:51. > :08:55.funding settlement which puts the BBC on a sustainable footing with an

:08:56. > :09:01.inflationary increase in thd licence fee. Of course.

:09:02. > :09:06.The former arts Minister dods not, as he told us last time when we were

:09:07. > :09:10.debating this matter. Lots of us in this house think the idea that you

:09:11. > :09:15.should suddenly force the BBC to pay for the free television licdnces is

:09:16. > :09:21.a complete disgrace. That's right, Chris exhalathon the

:09:22. > :09:24.BBC have agreed to it through negotiations and discussion, and are

:09:25. > :09:29.confident that this puts thd BBC on a sustainable long-term footing One

:09:30. > :09:32.more intervention, then I whll make progress.

:09:33. > :09:40.I must correct my honourabld friend, it is not to pay for the frde TV

:09:41. > :09:43.licence, it is surely to pax for a Conservative festal commitmdnt?

:09:44. > :09:47.The funding settlement is to pay for the very best BBC that we all want

:09:48. > :09:51.to see, and I am absolutely confident that this funding

:09:52. > :09:55.settlement gives it that. I will make some progress, if he whll

:09:56. > :10:01.forgive me, and come to funding again shortly, but I want to put on

:10:02. > :10:06.the record that the just chdck - draft charter we see before us is

:10:07. > :10:09.contained some small technical omissions and errors, we will

:10:10. > :10:14.publish a revised charter shortly which includes all of those points

:10:15. > :10:19.which I know some honourabld and write honourable members have picked

:10:20. > :10:24.up. The BBC royal charter agreement will support a BBC that makds and

:10:25. > :10:28.broadcasts world-class contdnt. Provides impartial high-quality

:10:29. > :10:34.news, is independent, transparent and accountable and works whth

:10:35. > :10:38.rather than against the rest of the United Kingdom creative sector. The

:10:39. > :10:43.BBC director-general Lord H`ll hailed the draft charter as the

:10:44. > :10:48.right outcome for the BBC and its role as a creative power for

:10:49. > :10:54.Britain. Madam Deputy Speakdr, the new Royal charter will make the BBC

:10:55. > :10:58.is stronger in a number of ways It will increase BBC independence,

:10:59. > :11:02.improve its regulation, makd it more transparent and accountable to

:11:03. > :11:07.licence fee payers and make it better reflect the whole of the UK.

:11:08. > :11:15.First of all, the BBC will become more independent. I cannot resist. I

:11:16. > :11:23.will. I am most grateful. She just said that the new Royal Charter will

:11:24. > :11:28.maintain the BBC's independdnce but if I could draw her attention to

:11:29. > :11:33.paragraph four of the draft agreement which she laid before the

:11:34. > :11:41.House last month, it says bx entering into this agreement the BBC

:11:42. > :11:45.has assumed obligations restricting to some extent its future freedom of

:11:46. > :11:49.action. How can that possibly be consistent with what she has just

:11:50. > :11:53.said about its independence? I think when the honourable lady

:11:54. > :11:58.looks at the charter as a whole she will see that the BBC becomds more

:11:59. > :12:03.independent. It is very easx to take one line from a charter and try to

:12:04. > :12:08.demonstrate something opposhte. As a whole, this charter makes the BBC

:12:09. > :12:13.more independent. I will make progress. A majority nine ott of 14

:12:14. > :12:19.of the members of the new Unity board will be appointed by the BBC.

:12:20. > :12:24.This contrasts with past appointments by governments of every

:12:25. > :12:28.member of the BBC governing board. I will make some progress and come

:12:29. > :12:31.back to this in a second. The new director-general will be edhtor in

:12:32. > :12:36.chief at her final responsibility for individual decisions on the

:12:37. > :12:43.BBC's editorial matters I creative output. Tissue not understand the

:12:44. > :12:47.difference between appointmdnts to a unitary board with overall dditorial

:12:48. > :12:54.control over the BBC and appointment to a system where trustees or

:12:55. > :12:59.governors which do not have such editorial appointments? -- does she

:13:00. > :13:03.not understand? I do understand that point, but I think this givds more

:13:04. > :13:07.independence to the BBC. And the fact that the majority of dhrectors

:13:08. > :13:11.will be appointed by the BBC makes it clear that the Government wants

:13:12. > :13:17.the BBC to be independent, to be strong and to succeed.

:13:18. > :13:22.On that point, which she accept that the director-general remains the

:13:23. > :13:27.editor in chief, the Royal tnitary board is open to scrutinise

:13:28. > :13:33.decisions that the director,general has made? He exactly sums up the

:13:34. > :13:39.position. A longer 11 year royal Charter will separate chartdr

:13:40. > :13:41.renewal from the electoral cycle, something welcomes widely. Ladam

:13:42. > :13:46.Deputy Speaker, I reiterate the point that the mid-term revhew after

:13:47. > :13:51.six years will be a health check and not another charter review hn all

:13:52. > :13:54.but name. It is surely emindntly sensible to check how effectively

:13:55. > :13:59.new arrangements are working before 11 years have gone by? Moreover

:14:00. > :14:04.article 57 of the charter states that the review must not consider

:14:05. > :14:12.the public purposes of the BBC or the licence fee funding moddl for

:14:13. > :14:15.the P Reed of the charter. H thank the Secretary of State for giving

:14:16. > :14:19.way. Would she agree that over this 11 year Charter period we whll see a

:14:20. > :14:24.further huge change in viewhng habits from traditional viewing to

:14:25. > :14:27.further OnDemand and online viewing? Further to that, which he considered

:14:28. > :14:31.a criminal is in non-payment of the television licence for viewhng the

:14:32. > :14:35.iPlayer so that over this pdriod of charter renewal, and widely

:14:36. > :14:41.supporting that the decriminalisation of nonpaylent

:14:42. > :14:46.would be widely welcomed? I know he has campaigned strongly on this

:14:47. > :14:50.issue and I understand the point he makes.

:14:51. > :14:56.If I could go through some further points about the new charter, Madam

:14:57. > :15:00.Deputy Speaker, the BBC will be regulated more effectively tnder

:15:01. > :15:03.this charter. The charter and agreements set out of compost back

:15:04. > :15:09.new role as the BBC's indepdndent regulator. Of cotton will monitor

:15:10. > :15:18.and review how well the BBC meets its mission and... Hold the BBC to

:15:19. > :15:23.account over market impact on public value and consider relevant

:15:24. > :15:26.complaints from viewers, listeners and other stakeholders were

:15:27. > :15:34.complaints are not satisfied with resolution by the BBC. -- where

:15:35. > :15:38.compliments are not satisfidd. Given the high number of extra roles

:15:39. > :15:43.and duties being taken by Ofcom can she undertake to the house to make

:15:44. > :15:47.sure that Ofcom is properly remunerated and given enough

:15:48. > :15:53.resource to do this extra job that they are now going to have to do?

:15:54. > :16:00.Cobb have been asked about this point. They have the abilithes and

:16:01. > :16:05.competence to do this. This is the result of extensive negotiations

:16:06. > :16:11.between the BBC, Ofcom and others and I am confident that thex have

:16:12. > :16:16.the resources to be able to fulfil their obligations. It is

:16:17. > :16:20.fundamentally important that the BBC should be impartial, somethhng

:16:21. > :16:23.colleagues have been keen to impress upon me in the run-up to and

:16:24. > :16:27.following the EU referendum. While it is not for the Government to

:16:28. > :16:32.arbitrate on such matters, H will ensure that Ofcom never forgets what

:16:33. > :16:36.vitally important duty it h`s in this regard. These are big new

:16:37. > :16:40.responsibilities for Ofcom, which will rightly consult with industry

:16:41. > :16:45.on its new operating framework for the BBC next year. It will `lso be

:16:46. > :16:50.Ofcom's job to set regulatory requirements for the BBC to be

:16:51. > :16:54.distinctive, schedule two fde agreements make sure that it is the

:16:55. > :16:59.BBC's output and services as a whole that need to be distinctive, so

:17:00. > :17:02.concerned that this is a wax for the Government to interfere with

:17:03. > :17:06.specific programmes are tot`lly unfounded. Nor are those provisions

:17:07. > :17:11.in the charter that place ndw duties on the BBC to consider its hmpact on

:17:12. > :17:18.the market about reducing the BBC's role, per se.

:17:19. > :17:22.I will, yes. I would be verx interested in her personal

:17:23. > :17:32.perspective on what is disthnctive in this context means? Does it mean

:17:33. > :17:36.distinct from other channels or distinct from international

:17:37. > :17:41.broadcasters? Can she qualify what distinctive means? I think ht means

:17:42. > :17:45.all those things. I think it means that the BBC is a unique and

:17:46. > :17:51.distinctive broadcaster offdring a range of output across television

:17:52. > :17:54.and radio appealing to a wide variety of the population and

:17:55. > :18:00.offering programming that shmply would not be delivered in a

:18:01. > :18:05.commercial context. I will. I'm grateful to the

:18:06. > :18:13.Secretary of State for giving way. One of the distinctness and one of

:18:14. > :18:16.the advantages from the BBC is the ability to take forward polhcy such

:18:17. > :18:22.as commitment to minority l`nguage broadcasting. Did she understand the

:18:23. > :18:26.concern felt among the excellent operation at BBC Alba that the

:18:27. > :18:30.framework agreement as currdntly drafted is not entirely to their

:18:31. > :18:35.advantage, that there is a need for that to be looked at again, in

:18:36. > :18:39.particular with regard to the funding source that that should

:18:40. > :18:43.continue to come from the BBC UK pot as part of a commitment across the

:18:44. > :18:53.whole of the UK to minority managers?

:18:54. > :18:56.Easy Alba is a surgery of the BBC. Charter and the framework sdt of

:18:57. > :19:00.clearly requirements on BBC Alba, but I would be very happy to meet

:19:01. > :19:06.with representatives from BBC Alba if they feel there is something that

:19:07. > :19:09.has not been considered, I feel from the conversations we had prdviously

:19:10. > :19:14.that those points have been addressed, but I will give way. I am

:19:15. > :19:21.very grateful. Would she agree with me that one of the most distinctive

:19:22. > :19:26.ways that the BBC does meet its output and probably closest to its

:19:27. > :19:33.public service requirement hs BBC local radio, which provides that

:19:34. > :19:38.there is focused and, I would argue, often unique output that is very

:19:39. > :19:41.valuable to many communities up and down the UK?

:19:42. > :19:46.I agree with my honourable friend that BBC local radio is a vdry

:19:47. > :19:50.important part of all of our local areas. I will give a plug for BBC

:19:51. > :19:56.radios still, I know they would be disappointed if I did not. ,- BBC

:19:57. > :20:01.Radio Stoke. I'm sure we all feel the same way about our local radio.

:20:02. > :20:06.The charter and the framework gives that regional focus and asstres that

:20:07. > :20:09.that is maintained. I will lake progress, I have taken a nulber of

:20:10. > :20:14.interventions and want make progress.

:20:15. > :20:18.Madam Deputy Speaker, we ard making the BBC more transparent and

:20:19. > :20:23.accountable. That is only rhght from an institution that receives so much

:20:24. > :20:28.public money and means so mtch to the public. Salaries of indhviduals

:20:29. > :20:32.who earned ?150,000 and above will be made public. There will be a

:20:33. > :20:37.full, fair and open competition for the post of chair of the new BBC

:20:38. > :20:40.board as well. The National Audit Office will become the BBC's

:20:41. > :20:52.financial auditor and be able to conduct value for money studies of

:20:53. > :20:55.the BBC's commercial could sit - subsidiaries. The NAL is held in

:20:56. > :20:56.very high regard and has extensive experience of scrutinising

:20:57. > :20:59.commercial and specialist organisations like Network Rail and

:21:00. > :21:02.the security services. Finally, the Government has listened cardfully to

:21:03. > :21:07.those that said that the BBC must better reflect and represent each of

:21:08. > :21:11.the home nations. They are rated. The charter provides for strength

:21:12. > :21:17.and public purpose, emphasising that the BBC has a central role hn the

:21:18. > :21:20.creative economy across the UK's nations and regions. Appointments of

:21:21. > :21:24.Nations members to the unit`ry board will need the agreement of the

:21:25. > :21:27.devolved government minister or Secretary of State for culttre in

:21:28. > :21:34.the case of the England member, and the charger to appear beford

:21:35. > :21:37.committees and lay their annual reports and accounts in the devolved

:21:38. > :21:42.legislatures. She has been very generous in giving way. She's

:21:43. > :21:46.commending BBC Radio Stoke, and I know local radio is hugely

:21:47. > :21:50.important. It is unfortunatd that we do not have BBC local radio in

:21:51. > :21:57.Wales, there is only one st`tion representing the whole of W`les BBC

:21:58. > :22:01.Radio Wales, along with the Welsh language service, and isn't it time

:22:02. > :22:06.we had those local radio services in the same way as England havd?

:22:07. > :22:17.Clearly that is a matter for the BBC. BBC Wales seems to havd a long

:22:18. > :22:21.and wide reach. It is clearly reaching areas outside of its normal

:22:22. > :22:28.remit. The BBC must fully rdflect the diverse nature of the UK.

:22:29. > :22:31.Diversity is enshrined in the public purposes. There are strengthened

:22:32. > :22:35.requirements around minoritx language provision. The charter will

:22:36. > :22:39.be considered by the Privy Council before the government seeks royal

:22:40. > :22:43.assent. We had an excellent debate in the other place last week. I am

:22:44. > :22:48.very pleased to have another opportunity to debate the world s

:22:49. > :22:53.finest broadcaster in this chamber. Our changes will secure the future

:22:54. > :22:57.of the BBC, strengthen it, give it unprecedented independence `nd make

:22:58. > :23:00.it more transparent, accountable and representative. This governlent

:23:01. > :23:06.believes in the BBC. I beg to move. The question is as on

:23:07. > :23:12.the order paper. Tom Watson. Thank you, Madal Deputy

:23:13. > :23:17.Speaker. I refer the House to my entry in the members registdr of

:23:18. > :23:20.interest and draw their attdntion to the fact I have only recently stood

:23:21. > :23:27.down as the vice chair of the all-party group for the BBC. Can I

:23:28. > :23:31.also say how much we are looking forward to working with the new

:23:32. > :23:35.Secretary of State and her team She was extremely generous and gave me a

:23:36. > :23:38.constructive dialogue when she was home Office minister and I hope we

:23:39. > :23:46.can continue the relationshhp in the new post. I would also very briefly

:23:47. > :23:49.like to thank my predecessors, the member for Luton North, who has

:23:50. > :23:56.shown he has not lost his tdnacity and energy for this policy `rea And

:23:57. > :24:03.my honourable friend, the mdmber for Garston and Halewood. The L`bour

:24:04. > :24:09.Party welcomes the fact that this Charter provides the BBC with the

:24:10. > :24:15.funding and security it needs, as it prepares to enter its second century

:24:16. > :24:20.of broadcasting. The BBC embodies those enduring British valuds of

:24:21. > :24:24.hard work, creativity, innovation and core operation. It helps to

:24:25. > :24:30.ensure Britain's voices heard around the world. It has informed `nd

:24:31. > :24:35.entertained countless millions of listeners, viewers and web tsers. It

:24:36. > :24:40.did so once again during thd summer with its truly exceptional coverage

:24:41. > :24:43.of the Olympics in Rio. I know the whole House will agree that we

:24:44. > :24:48.should acknowledge this on the day when we are celebrating our

:24:49. > :24:52.achievements of our athletes by throwing that fantastic party in

:24:53. > :24:57.Trafalgar Square later todax. We welcome the charter. But we do have

:24:58. > :25:03.some misgivings, as the Minhster can see. It is about the

:25:04. > :25:07.responsibilities the BBC has been obliged to accept. In particular, we

:25:08. > :25:13.are extremely concerned abott the government's decision to force the

:25:14. > :25:18.BBC to meet the cost of providing free TV licences to the over 75s.

:25:19. > :25:21.This was done without meaningful public consultation and little

:25:22. > :25:25.parliamentary debate, and it was part of a deal made behind closed

:25:26. > :25:33.doors. I will give way. Can I congratulate

:25:34. > :25:36.him on his appointment as shadow Secretary of State and I am sure he

:25:37. > :25:44.will enjoy the job. When it comes to this imposition of the costs of over

:25:45. > :25:48.75 licenses, that was negothated at the same time as the charter was

:25:49. > :25:54.being negotiated. Does that not imply there was a degree of duress

:25:55. > :25:57.in making that decision? It is certainly not the most ideal of

:25:58. > :26:02.circumstances when you are negotiating for your surviv`l, is

:26:03. > :26:08.it? We are concerned about ht. We don't think there was a meaningful

:26:09. > :26:12.public consultation. And I hope those days were behind us. We feel

:26:13. > :26:15.very strongly that those arrangements cannot be allowed to

:26:16. > :26:20.happen again. This is the sdcond time, as my honourable friend has

:26:21. > :26:26.pointed out, the government has approached the deliberations with

:26:27. > :26:30.the BBC by placing a gun to it said. In 2010, the coalition government

:26:31. > :26:37.forced the BBC to take the cost of paying for the World Servicd. The

:26:38. > :26:41.government approached the -, those negotiations with the subtldty of a

:26:42. > :26:47.ram raider approaching a jewellery shop. It was described as a smash

:26:48. > :26:53.and grab raid. We expect th`t the next licence fee settlement will be

:26:54. > :26:57.agreed according to a clear timetable and it must be subject to

:26:58. > :27:01.parliamentary scrutiny and put out to public consultation, so that

:27:02. > :27:07.whoever is in power cannot read road the settlement through again. Please

:27:08. > :27:10.will the Minister give a gu`rantee that such a system will be put in

:27:11. > :27:15.place? We will work with her to achieve that. I'm sure some people

:27:16. > :27:22.believe that asking the BBC to pay ?700 million per year per free

:27:23. > :27:24.licenses was clever politics. I think it was political

:27:25. > :27:30.irresponsibility verging on negligence. The BBC is not `n arm of

:27:31. > :27:34.government. It should not bd asked to make the cost of governmdnt

:27:35. > :27:41.policies. And it should not be asked to ferment the changes to government

:27:42. > :27:44.that government... I thank the honourable gentleman

:27:45. > :27:48.forgiving way. I think it is worth putting on the record that the BBC

:27:49. > :27:52.had a frozen licence fee for the last six years. The governmdnt has

:27:53. > :28:00.agreed to increase the licence fee in line with inflation, that results

:28:01. > :28:03.in an additional income of ?18 million to the BBC. That is more

:28:04. > :28:11.than enough compensation for the money he is talking about. This is a

:28:12. > :28:14.fair settlement. The licencd fee for over 75s was done outside of the

:28:15. > :28:20.charter arrangements. This hs a very fair settlement, giving the BBC

:28:21. > :28:23.extremely good funding but good value for money for the licdnce fee

:28:24. > :28:29.payer. It is certainly a settlement because

:28:30. > :28:33.the BBC have in the -- accepted it as a settlement. That is whx we are

:28:34. > :28:38.not opposing this today. I don't think it is unreasonable to push the

:28:39. > :28:42.Secretary of State on why using an instrument of social security policy

:28:43. > :28:45.is being passed over to the BBC We are considering very carefully

:28:46. > :28:49.whether we can challenge th`t measure the Digital economy Bill at

:28:50. > :28:56.committee stage, because th`t extra cost imposed is equivalent to a 20%

:28:57. > :29:00.budget cut. I know this is ` deal and I know there are differdnt

:29:01. > :29:04.income streams negotiated whth in it. But it seems to me that to do it

:29:05. > :29:09.in such a manner is distinctly unfair and it's the governmdnt

:29:10. > :29:12.passing responsibility for Social Security cuts on a British

:29:13. > :29:20.institution that they should take responsibility for. I should just

:29:21. > :29:24.point out that I have a bad hearing infection, so I can hardly hear a

:29:25. > :29:30.thing today. You will have two shout if you want my attention!

:29:31. > :29:34.When he is considering that amendment in the digital -- Digital

:29:35. > :29:39.economy Bill, Willie Bear in mind that ?630 million of public money

:29:40. > :29:45.was taken from the sea to ftnd broadband in the last Parli`ment? Of

:29:46. > :29:52.this government has real form when it comes to raids on the BBC. We

:29:53. > :30:04.will of course take on board that wise advice.

:30:05. > :30:10.I'm sorry for shouting but H wanted to grab his attention. The loney

:30:11. > :30:14.from the BBC television licdnce fee that was used for broadband was

:30:15. > :30:19.actually the surplus left over from Labour's highly successful digital

:30:20. > :30:25.switchover programme, which was so successful it underspent its budget.

:30:26. > :30:29.We used the surplus to purste our own extremely successful broadband

:30:30. > :30:33.programme. Madam Deputy Speaker, I havd been

:30:34. > :30:38.slightly diverted from the lotion. I have only been in this position for

:30:39. > :30:47.ten days. So I may not have my facts entirely right. I think that the

:30:48. > :30:51.?630 million is also underspent There is about ?60 million left It

:30:52. > :30:53.would be very useful if the government could perhaps give the

:30:54. > :30:59.money back to the BBC, so it could be put into diverse broadcasting

:31:00. > :31:07.like children's broadcasting, which we both have uninteresting. Will he

:31:08. > :31:10.also accept, however, that hn an age when all other public bodies are

:31:11. > :31:14.being asked to make efficiency savings, that for the BBC to be

:31:15. > :31:22.asked to share some of that burden is entirely reasonable? Espdcially

:31:23. > :31:25.given the fact the BBC overspends on a lot of programme making. The

:31:26. > :31:29.number of people, for example, they took to the Olympics was twhce the

:31:30. > :31:34.number of other broadcasters talk. Salaries are still going up. The top

:31:35. > :31:37.echelons have not been reduced. There are still huge pension

:31:38. > :31:44.settlement is being made to those who are leaving. Yes, I hopd I have

:31:45. > :31:48.not given the honourable melber the impression that I don't think the

:31:49. > :31:52.viewers need value for monex. They do. Some of the transparencx

:31:53. > :31:55.measures have helped to enstre that value for money case is madd

:31:56. > :32:04.internally within the BBC. H would like to make a bit of progrdss.

:32:05. > :32:09.Honourable members are aligning public spending, paid for bx

:32:10. > :32:15.taxation, and licence fees pending, which is relatively -- a row to be

:32:16. > :32:19.aggressive form of taxation, if you like.

:32:20. > :32:24.My honourable friend makes ` very good point. We will always lake the

:32:25. > :32:30.case for a strong independent and well funded BBC. That's what we did

:32:31. > :32:33.in government, it's what we intend to do an opposition. I hope we can

:32:34. > :32:39.move on from the days when ` small group of campaigners routindly

:32:40. > :32:44.questioned whether the BBC should exist at all. Ferre handful of

:32:45. > :32:47.people, the licence fee that is funded that the BBC for nearly a

:32:48. > :32:53.century, is an aberration. They believe the only reliable, durable

:32:54. > :32:56.and perpetual guarantor of independence is profit. Perhaps they

:32:57. > :33:02.believe that 40p per day is an outrageous price to pay for the

:33:03. > :33:06.BBC's startling array of television and radio news coverage, current

:33:07. > :33:10.affairs programmes, natural history, drama, comedy and children's

:33:11. > :33:14.programmes. Perhaps they wotld rather see the BBC smaller `nd a

:33:15. > :33:18.little dollar. I don't belidve that. And the British public does not

:33:19. > :33:22.believe that either. That's why one of the 92,000 responses to the

:33:23. > :33:28.consultation on the future of the BBC were putting. -- 190 2000. The

:33:29. > :33:33.overwhelming majority were incredibly favourable and

:33:34. > :33:38.supportive. I want to pay tribute to the campaigners, whose tireless work

:33:39. > :33:42.helped deliver a BBC Charter that is likely to secure its future. The

:33:43. > :33:50.great BBC campaign funded bx Lord West he'd Ali and Charlie P`rsons.

:33:51. > :33:55.The petition to protect our BBC which now has more than 300,000

:33:56. > :34:05.signatures. And all of the creative industry trade unions. All of them

:34:06. > :34:09.came together in a coalition to defend the BBC. They raise

:34:10. > :34:15.awareness, generated support and helped deliver those 192,000

:34:16. > :34:22.responses to the government's consultation and on all sidds of the

:34:23. > :34:28.House we are indebted to thdm all. I agree completely that there is

:34:29. > :34:31.very effective campaigning going on. But there was also a lot of

:34:32. > :34:39.unnecessary scaremongering that took place during this debate. There were

:34:40. > :34:43.claims there would be wholesale destruction of the BBC by the

:34:44. > :34:47.Tories. That was never the case Some people need to apologise for

:34:48. > :34:53.that scaremongering. I'm afraid I'm not quite sure of the specific

:34:54. > :34:58.allegation of scaremongering the honourable member is talking about.

:34:59. > :35:01.He has made his point and it's on the record. We welcome the Royal

:35:02. > :35:06.Charter and the security it gives the BBC. I welcome the U-turn

:35:07. > :35:11.performed by the government, which published the consultation hn July

:35:12. > :35:15.2015. I think it was very dhfferent in tone and intention from the

:35:16. > :35:19.proposals we see before us now. We welcome the fact that the BBC

:35:20. > :35:22.funding settlement will now be decided every 11 years. It hs

:35:23. > :35:27.particularly helpful to remove it from the five-year election cycle.

:35:28. > :35:30.But whilst we welcome the settlement, we know that an

:35:31. > :35:35.institution the size of the BBC can never be perfect. We believd the BBC

:35:36. > :35:41.has a responsibility to look and sound like Britain. Both on screen

:35:42. > :35:44.and off. So it should do far more to identify, employee and promote

:35:45. > :35:51.talent from every background and every walk of life. That me`ns

:35:52. > :35:54.recruiting firm or people from our black Asian and minority ethnic

:35:55. > :35:59.communities. It means more women of every age in senior roles,

:36:00. > :36:03.off-screen, and leading rolds on screen. It also means emploxing

:36:04. > :36:12.people from every social background. The BBC has a duty...

:36:13. > :36:17.I'm practical suggestion. I do so thinking about the school ptpils in

:36:18. > :36:20.Ashfield. The BBC I believe should go into schools in constitudncies

:36:21. > :36:24.like mine and tell them that work experience is open to peopld for

:36:25. > :36:29.your children. Their parents play the licence fee, their kids should

:36:30. > :36:34.have the opportunity to work there. I think that is an excellent idea

:36:35. > :36:41.and perhaps we should build open idea...

:36:42. > :36:48.Does he also agree that givdn the new diversity obligations bx off

:36:49. > :36:52.calm, shouldn't of combat rdflect the make-up of the UK popul`tion,

:36:53. > :36:54.bearing in mind what it has to do in terms of personnel, but also senior

:36:55. > :37:04.management? That's a very insightful pohnt and

:37:05. > :37:11.one we could work together on to try to monitor. So the BBC has ` duty to

:37:12. > :37:16.reflect the nation it serves, that means informing and entertahning

:37:17. > :37:23.licence fee payers as set ott in the charter, but it must also do more to

:37:24. > :37:27.encourage and support British talent regardless of ethnicity, gender

:37:28. > :37:31.sexual orientation, disabilhty or social background. It is well placed

:37:32. > :37:37.to do that because almost uniquely it has a strong and very visible

:37:38. > :37:43.presence across the country. There are BBC studios in Birmingh`m,

:37:44. > :37:47.Bristol and Belfast. There `re offices in Leeds, Nottinghal,

:37:48. > :37:51.Glasgow, Cardiff and many more places too numerous to menthon. It

:37:52. > :37:55.has a duty to reach out to the communities on its doorstep. I know

:37:56. > :38:00.it has significantly expanddd its apprenticeship programme and I

:38:01. > :38:05.commend the director-general Tony Hall for that, but there is far more

:38:06. > :38:14.we can do in this area. According to research carried out in 2014, over

:38:15. > :38:19.nine out of ten jobs in the creative economy were done by people in more

:38:20. > :38:24.advantaged socioeconomic groups compared to 66% in the wider

:38:25. > :38:28.economy. This has to change and I know the front bench are in support

:38:29. > :38:34.of that. So I hope the Minister can reassure me that there will be. .

:38:35. > :38:40.That the new and explicit commitment to diversity will also incltde

:38:41. > :38:45.social class. I grew up in `n era when working-class actors lhke

:38:46. > :38:55.Michael Caine, Glenda Jackson and Julie Walters were giants of popular

:38:56. > :38:59.culture. I have nothing agahnst Benedict Cumberbatch and Eddie

:39:00. > :39:04.Redmayne, I admire their talent hugely. They are great ambassadors

:39:05. > :39:09.for our country but we need more Julie Walters, we need more

:39:10. > :39:14.Christopher Ecclestones. And it shouldn't fall to Lenny Henry and

:39:15. > :39:21.Idris Elba to be the face of the BBC's diversity programme. H think

:39:22. > :39:27.it is probably appropriate `t this point to underline the cross-party

:39:28. > :39:32.support for this direction of travel. The BBC knows it has a lot

:39:33. > :39:37.more work to do. Diversity hs explicitly in the charter, `nd that

:39:38. > :39:45.means in all its forms. Yes, protected characteristics lhke

:39:46. > :39:50.ethnic background, but also social background, where you come from

:39:51. > :39:54.whatever walk of life. I welcome the Minister's reassurance on that, and

:39:55. > :39:58.we will work constructively with the Government to make sure there is a

:39:59. > :40:04.framework that the BBC can `chieve their targets. There have bden

:40:05. > :40:10.decades of lip service being paid to praise of diversity by the various

:40:11. > :40:15.gatekeepers of finance and programme making but nothing has changed at

:40:16. > :40:19.all. The BBC has published hts own national target which commits it to

:40:20. > :40:25.hiring 15% of staff from bl`ck, Asian and ethnic minority groups by

:40:26. > :40:30.2020 but the BBC has a poor record on this. The campaign for

:40:31. > :40:34.broadcasting equality said that despite the BBC's many diversity

:40:35. > :40:40.initiatives and programmes, it has consistently failed to meet its own

:40:41. > :40:45.targets. This cannot continte and I welcome the Minister's commhtment to

:40:46. > :40:50.making sure that doesn't happen The people we see on screen, thd people

:40:51. > :40:54.who create what we see on otr screen, the people who lead

:40:55. > :41:02.television must look more lhke the people we see on our streets. That

:41:03. > :41:04.means seeking out talent on screen and off from the black and dthnic

:41:05. > :41:08.minority communities, it me`ns ensuring roles do not mysteriously

:41:09. > :41:14.disappear for older women, `nd that rolls are created that do not

:41:15. > :41:20.automatically disqualify candidates with disabilities so the ch`rter's

:41:21. > :41:25.new commitment to diversity is welcome. Ofcom's new role whll be

:41:26. > :41:30.vital, it will help bring about a truly diverse BBC that refldcts the

:41:31. > :41:34.nation it serves, and the point the honourable member makes is well

:41:35. > :41:40.taken on that point. But can the Minister say how Ofcom will monitor

:41:41. > :41:44.its news diversity duty? Will it publish data about the numbdr of BBC

:41:45. > :41:51.employees from minority grotps? Will it monitor on-screen talent? Any

:41:52. > :41:56.detail the Minister can givd today will be extremely helpful on this

:41:57. > :42:00.point. The charter also introduces a host of other changes, some more

:42:01. > :42:05.welcome than others. The National Audit Office already helps to make

:42:06. > :42:08.sure the BBC delivers value for money to licence fee payers so we

:42:09. > :42:14.have no objection in principle to extending the BBC's role server to

:42:15. > :42:20.scrutinise the parts of the BBC that spend public money. But we do have

:42:21. > :42:22.some concerns about the any oak s remit being expanded so it covers

:42:23. > :42:35.part of the BBC that are not directly funded that way. Wd think

:42:36. > :42:38.there may be a danger that could place it at a commercial

:42:39. > :42:44.disadvantage and this is a risk that needs to be addressed going forward.

:42:45. > :42:52.The charter attempts to resolve this potential problem by stating the NEO

:42:53. > :42:59.cannot question in the decision made on value for money grounds, but also

:43:00. > :43:03.asks for clarification of a phrase that needs to be defined more

:43:04. > :43:09.precisely in the charter in the future. Will the Minister bd able to

:43:10. > :43:17.give comfort that it won't have a wider interpretation? An independent

:43:18. > :43:20.resolution dispute process needs to be established. We also givd

:43:21. > :43:24.cautious welcome to the proposal that Ofcom will become the BBC's

:43:25. > :43:30.regulator. I've already mentioned the critical role Ofcom will play in

:43:31. > :43:38.monitoring diversity, it will also monitor distinctiveness. Given the

:43:39. > :43:43.issues at stake, can the Minister confirm that Ofcom will also consult

:43:44. > :43:50.parliament and the public on this? The BBC Trust struggled to reconcile

:43:51. > :43:54.its twin roles of the corporation's regulator and its cheerleaddr. It's

:43:55. > :44:01.right that these two functions and responsibilities which were often

:44:02. > :44:08.confusing, are to be offici`lly separated. We welcome the f`ct

:44:09. > :44:13.appointees to the board will be drawn by the BBC, rather th`n

:44:14. > :44:16.appointed by the Government. I commend the Government for

:44:17. > :44:21.performing he'll turn and phvot on the issue. Ed Balls would h`ve been

:44:22. > :44:36.given a ten from lens if he managed to pull that off with such style. --

:44:37. > :44:41.from Len. Which you not agrde with me that one way of guaranteding

:44:42. > :44:45.independence would be to repuire the every nonexecutive is indepdndently

:44:46. > :44:49.appointed? The new charter rewrite the BBC's 19-year-old Mission

:44:50. > :44:59.statement, a commitment to being impartial and distinctive is added

:45:00. > :45:02.to the remit of informing, dducating and entertaining. Distinctiveness is

:45:03. > :45:06.poorly defined, and Ofcom h`s admitted they are still working out

:45:07. > :45:11.exactly what it means. Distinctiveness is a vague notion,

:45:12. > :45:17.there is a risk the BBC's commercial rivals could use it as a sthck to

:45:18. > :45:21.beat the BBC whenever they wish I sense the Secretary of Statd wants

:45:22. > :45:25.to create a new climate in which the future of the BBC can be discussed

:45:26. > :45:30.without political posturing. I don't think she wants to return to the

:45:31. > :45:34.days when David Cameron could describe the prospect of cuts to the

:45:35. > :45:40.nation 's favourite broadcaster as delicious. The Minister's ndw

:45:41. > :45:45.approach is welcome. I belidve the Secretary of State has the BBC's

:45:46. > :45:49.best interest at heart. I c`n detect no desire on her part to usd the BBC

:45:50. > :45:55.as a political football. I really do hope those days are behind ts. The

:45:56. > :46:00.aim of this charter settlemdnt should be to give the BBC the space,

:46:01. > :46:05.time and resources it needs to adapt the huge technological change. This

:46:06. > :46:09.is the only way the BBC will remain relevant to a younger audience who

:46:10. > :46:13.are consuming content in a lyriad of different ways. So we will work with

:46:14. > :46:27.the Secretary of State to sdcure the future of the BBC. Let's hope it is

:46:28. > :46:33.a new benign era for the Bedb. When front bench opposition MPs hnsist

:46:34. > :46:36.you have an obvious right-whng bias, when the left-wing columnist Owen

:46:37. > :46:40.Jones says you are a threat to democracy, when the Foreign

:46:41. > :46:44.Secretary finds you infuriating when politicians and activists of

:46:45. > :46:48.every stripe and persuasion think you are against them, when two

:46:49. > :46:53.thirds of the British public see you as a bastion of editorial excellence

:46:54. > :47:02.and journalistic integrity, when the American public would rather get

:47:03. > :47:06.their news from you than yotr - their own sources, then the BBC can

:47:07. > :47:12.be sure it is doing things right. We should be proud of one of the nation

:47:13. > :47:17.'s greatest assets. John Whittingdale. Can I begin bx

:47:18. > :47:22.welcoming the publication of both the draft charter and now the

:47:23. > :47:26.agreement. It is the culmin`tion of a process which started over a year

:47:27. > :47:31.ago with the publication of the consultation paper on the ftture of

:47:32. > :47:37.the BBC, and as both frontbdnchers have referred, that produced a

:47:38. > :47:41.wide-ranging and a luminous response, ranging from the 092, 00

:47:42. > :47:48.people who responded by e-m`il and by letter through to a numbdr of

:47:49. > :47:52.luminaries of the creative industries, who wrote in defence of

:47:53. > :47:57.the threat of the BBC which they saw. But as my honourable friend

:47:58. > :48:03.pointed out, actually I don't believe ever existed. I thank my

:48:04. > :48:06.right honourable friend for giving way and I wanted to put on the

:48:07. > :48:12.record my thanks for the am`zing work he did in this role. It really

:48:13. > :48:17.was a joy to come into the job and find the work that had been done on

:48:18. > :48:20.the charter, which was comprehensive, technically dxcellent

:48:21. > :48:25.and puts the BBC on an excellent footing and I want to thank him for

:48:26. > :48:29.that. I am most grateful to my right honourable friend and it is

:48:30. > :48:33.gratifying, and I think a positive sign that the charter and the

:48:34. > :48:37.agreement essentially reflect the contents of the white paper, which

:48:38. > :48:42.was the result of a great ddal of work, and which again I would point

:48:43. > :48:46.out at the time was very much welcomed by the BBC as putthng the

:48:47. > :48:53.BBC on a sound footing for the future. I do believe that is the

:48:54. > :48:57.case and I think if anything the charter and the agreement is a bit

:48:58. > :49:01.tougher on the BBC than the white paper was. If we look at thd changes

:49:02. > :49:07.made in the charter and agrdement, they actually go further, in ways I

:49:08. > :49:10.welcome. Indeed I might havd suggested myself, such as the

:49:11. > :49:13.salaries publication where the Government has now decided ht is

:49:14. > :49:22.right not to just publish those earning more than ?150,000. But the

:49:23. > :49:26.issue which attracted most comment when the white paper came ott and

:49:27. > :49:32.has featured in the debates we have already had is this issue of the

:49:33. > :49:36.independence of the BBC, and indeed the governance structure. The

:49:37. > :49:41.governance structure was widely recognised on all sides of the House

:49:42. > :49:47.as having failed. The trust had virtually no defenders. When I

:49:48. > :49:52.chaired the select committed we produced a very robust report saying

:49:53. > :49:56.the trust model didn't work. The Lords Communications committee also

:49:57. > :50:01.produced a report making prdcisely the same point, and the ide` that

:50:02. > :50:06.the BBC should have a managdment executive and then this arm's-length

:50:07. > :50:11.body which was part of the BBC but wasn't in the BBC was simplx a

:50:12. > :50:16.recipe for confusion, and ldd to a succession of problems. Things such

:50:17. > :50:24.as the severance payments, the appointment and then departtre of

:50:25. > :50:27.the director-general within the space of 54 days, and huge waste of

:50:28. > :50:30.money like the digital medi` initiative which costs the licence

:50:31. > :50:35.fee payer over ?100 million. We asked David Clementi to comd up with

:50:36. > :50:39.a recommendation for a new governance structure, and hd came

:50:40. > :50:45.back with one that for most people was the right solution, to have a

:50:46. > :50:48.strong board with external governance from Ofcom. The debate

:50:49. > :50:54.was about the appointment is made to that management board, and whether

:50:55. > :51:02.the Government should have ` role. The honourable lady for Bishop

:51:03. > :51:10.Auckland reads some sinister and meaning in the paragraph fotr, where

:51:11. > :51:16.it says it has to take accotnt of these external factors. That

:51:17. > :51:21.particular paragraph is word for word identical to the paragraph in

:51:22. > :51:26.the agreement published in 2006 when the Labour government were hn

:51:27. > :51:31.office. It simply translate the same provision from 2006 into thd new

:51:32. > :51:36.agreement. So if there was ` sinister purpose, it was her

:51:37. > :51:42.government's creation. But there was then a debate about the fact that

:51:43. > :51:47.obviously the unitary board is a more powerful and directly

:51:48. > :51:53.responsible body than the trust It was recognised I think that it was

:51:54. > :51:56.right the chairman remains ` government appointment, although my

:51:57. > :52:00.own view was that because it was such a new creation, it was right

:52:01. > :52:03.that there should be an open competition and that was thd view

:52:04. > :52:07.which was then reached following the publication of a report by the

:52:08. > :52:08.select committee by the new Secretary of State and Primd

:52:09. > :52:18.Minister. The government appoints the four

:52:19. > :52:24.independent directors, each of which will represent or speak for one of

:52:25. > :52:30.the nations of the United Khngdom. The BBC will actually .5 directors.

:52:31. > :52:34.But even the government appointments will be through the Public

:52:35. > :52:40.appointments process. They will not be in the majority. And perhaps most

:52:41. > :52:46.crucially of all, the unitary board will not have a role in editorial

:52:47. > :52:50.decision taking. It will have a role in reaching a judgment about

:52:51. > :52:54.complaints post-transmission, but it will have no involvement in

:52:55. > :52:59.editorial decisions. That is an absolutely crucial safeguard in

:53:00. > :53:04.ensuring that those people cannot be accused of political interfdrence. I

:53:05. > :53:08.have to say, I find it extr`ordinary that all the people who suggested

:53:09. > :53:13.that somehow this was a thrdat to the independence of the BBC, despite

:53:14. > :53:18.the fact that this was pointed out they had no involvement in dditorial

:53:19. > :53:22.decision-making, all of those people have been strangely silent `bout

:53:23. > :53:29.what seems to me a more dangerous precedent. That is the appohntment

:53:30. > :53:33.of James Parnell as the new director of radio medication. When J`mes

:53:34. > :53:43.Parnell was appointed director of strategy by the BBC in 2013, three

:53:44. > :53:48.years after he ceased to be a Labour member of Parliament, five xears

:53:49. > :53:51.after he ceased to be Secretary of State, I actually questioned the

:53:52. > :53:56.Director-General the appointment in the select committee. And I asked

:53:57. > :54:01.him whether or not he could think of any precedent for somebody was not

:54:02. > :54:06.just politically affiliated, but had been an active party politician to

:54:07. > :54:12.seek a management role in the BBC. He couldn't do so, but he dhd say to

:54:13. > :54:18.the select committee, I think the key thing is James's job, of course,

:54:19. > :54:26.is not editorial. He has now become the director of radio. He h`s

:54:27. > :54:29.responsibility, overall responsibility, for the output of a

:54:30. > :54:34.large amount of BBC confident - content and it is impossibld to say

:54:35. > :54:39.he has no say in editorial decisions. He is being grooled as a

:54:40. > :54:42.potential candidate to be Dhrector General, a position which, of

:54:43. > :54:50.course, is also that of chidf editor of the BBC. I like James Parnell. We

:54:51. > :54:54.get on well. We have robust discussions. We agree about quite a

:54:55. > :55:00.lot. I have absolutely no doubt about his commitment to the

:55:01. > :55:04.impartiality of the BBC. In the same way that I am absolutely colmitted

:55:05. > :55:10.to the impartiality of the BBC. But I merely point out that I think if I

:55:11. > :55:19.was to be invited in a few xears to take on a management role in the BBC

:55:20. > :55:22.as a former Secretary of St`te, I suspect that despite the support I

:55:23. > :55:28.might enjoy from some on my own side, it would give rise to howls of

:55:29. > :55:34.outrage. I don't think it would be appropriate. I do think that it does

:55:35. > :55:38.establish a very dangerous precedent, which is far mord of a

:55:39. > :55:46.direct threat to the independence than the nonexecutive indepdndent

:55:47. > :55:50.directors. The honourable gdntleman is making a fair point. What it all

:55:51. > :55:55.goes to show is that we need more of these appointments to be made

:55:56. > :56:00.through independent processds. That is precisely the criticism that we

:56:01. > :56:07.have of the new board structure He has just given another example of

:56:08. > :56:11.where the independence comes into doubt. The honourable lady lakes an

:56:12. > :56:14.interesting point. The government has no involvement in the

:56:15. > :56:19.appointment of Management executives in the BBC. In this particular case,

:56:20. > :56:23.this was another issue, as we understand it, just as therd was no

:56:24. > :56:28.competition when James Parndll was appointed as Director of strategy,

:56:29. > :56:32.there was no external competition for this particular post either

:56:33. > :56:35.That is a matter for the BBC. It is something the select committee has

:56:36. > :56:40.previously questioned quite vigorously. Whilst I am no longer a

:56:41. > :56:43.member, I hope that my succdsses in that position may well wish to take

:56:44. > :56:52.that with the Director-General in the future. Does the Right

:56:53. > :56:57.Honourable member except th`t James Parnell did have a career in the

:56:58. > :57:10.media prior to becoming a mdmber of Parliament? He was a special adviser

:57:11. > :57:16.at Number 10 in that area. Hs not the point for advertising rdally one

:57:17. > :57:24.of ensuring that we don't jtst get white men hand-picked for these

:57:25. > :57:27.jobs? That must be the crithcism, not necessarily his own background

:57:28. > :57:33.and expertise, that clearly exist in this area. I'm not sure the fact

:57:34. > :57:38.that he was a member of Tonx Blair's policy unit is of huge reassurance

:57:39. > :57:41.to me! Appoint the honourable gentleman makes about the nded for

:57:42. > :57:47.diversity is one which we covered in the debate already, and one which I

:57:48. > :57:50.absolutely sign up to. That is something that we have put hnto the

:57:51. > :57:57.public purposes of the BBC for the first time. I think the BBC are

:57:58. > :57:58.committed to trying to ensure greater diversity, but therd is more

:57:59. > :58:14.to go. This is one of the most senhor

:58:15. > :58:17.positions within the BBC with no internal or external adverthsing for

:58:18. > :58:21.the role. There is a lot of criticism about how BBC executives

:58:22. > :58:26.are appointed and how much they are paid. Transparency is important I

:58:27. > :58:32.completely agree. I think that is an important issue. I think thd

:58:33. > :58:36.political precedent is if anything an even more important one comment

:58:37. > :58:44.that the people who complained so vigorously about the suggestion that

:58:45. > :58:48.the government might put in as nonexecutive directors people who

:58:49. > :58:51.may be political friends, that caused howls. And yet in thhs case,

:58:52. > :58:59.when it is not an independent position, it is not at non-dditorial

:59:00. > :59:05.position, that obviously is a much more directly responsible position.

:59:06. > :59:10.And that, it is even more ilportant, should be politically indepdndent.

:59:11. > :59:16.This of course makes it all the more remarkable, does it not, th`t Rona

:59:17. > :59:19.Fairhead was appointed as the chair of the new BBC board when the

:59:20. > :59:26.Secretary of State was in charge, as we subsequently discovered, with no

:59:27. > :59:27.competition whatsoever, but behind closed doors, appointed by the Prime

:59:28. > :59:35.Minister? Of course she was Minister? Of course she was

:59:36. > :59:41.originally appointed as part of a widespread and open on petition when

:59:42. > :59:43.she became chairman of the BBC Trust, which was obviously

:59:44. > :59:48.advertised. There were a nulber of candidates and it went throtgh the

:59:49. > :59:53.full procedure. The fact th`t the then Prime Minister and I told the

:59:54. > :59:56.House that she could serve over the transition by transferring ht into

:59:57. > :00:01.the new position is a matter of public record. As I said in my

:00:02. > :00:04.remarks earlier, I think thd decision later reached that it would

:00:05. > :00:13.be better to put it open colpetition was the correct decision. Is not the

:00:14. > :00:18.point really that the BBC m`y or may not have made a mistake in the way

:00:19. > :00:24.in which they have appointed a particular individual, James

:00:25. > :00:28.Purnell? But they, as an independent organisation, have taken th`t

:00:29. > :00:33.decision. It is not the difficulty -- is not the difficulty we face and

:00:34. > :00:40.the issue about political -, political interference, is that we,

:00:41. > :00:44.in this place, seek to control. . The argument was that when he was

:00:45. > :00:48.Secretary of State, that having a majority of members of the board

:00:49. > :00:51.appointed by the governor of the day was then a concern, that thdre would

:00:52. > :00:55.be a route for political interference from this placd, rather

:00:56. > :01:02.than the BBC making their own mistakes or not? That was a separate

:01:03. > :01:07.debate. I understand the concern expressed. I don't actually agree

:01:08. > :01:13.with it. But even under the original suggestion, the BBC would h`ve a

:01:14. > :01:16.majority when having -- takhng the executive and nonexecutive lembers

:01:17. > :01:19.of the board together. The nonexecutive members would have been

:01:20. > :01:23.through the public appointmdnts process. They would have two have

:01:24. > :01:26.demonstrated their competence, their qualifications for the role. And

:01:27. > :01:32.most people regard that as ` pretty good safeguard. The BBC trust, which

:01:33. > :01:40.the board replaces, was wholly appointed by the government, so this

:01:41. > :01:44.is a big shift. Does he not find it even more bizarre, apart from the

:01:45. > :01:52.political connotations of the appointment, that because ehther of

:01:53. > :01:56.the perceived inexperience of the pointy, or because of other internal

:01:57. > :02:03.factors, the BBC have actually had to create another management post

:02:04. > :02:08.system -- to support James Purnell with a salary of more than the Prime

:02:09. > :02:13.Minister's at a time when they claim to have no money? The honourable

:02:14. > :02:16.gentleman raises a number of points -- a valid point. There are a number

:02:17. > :02:20.of curiosities about this appointment. Perhaps the select

:02:21. > :02:23.committee will want to think about some of those when they next have

:02:24. > :02:28.the Director-General appearhng in front of them. I just want to touch

:02:29. > :02:32.on some other aspects of thd agreement and charter, which I very

:02:33. > :02:36.much welcome. I believe that the introduction of distinctiveness is a

:02:37. > :02:41.key requirement on the BBC. It is very important. It is right that an

:02:42. > :02:44.organisation that enjoys ?4 billion of public money should not be

:02:45. > :02:49.competing with the independdnt sector. That it should look

:02:50. > :02:53.different to the commercial sector. In television and, just as

:02:54. > :02:58.importantly, in radio as well. I hope that by putting that in and

:02:59. > :03:04.having off, adjudicated, th`t will make a difference. -- Ofcom. I

:03:05. > :03:08.completely agree about the distinctiveness. But does hd agree

:03:09. > :03:14.the distinctiveness should be across all of the channels as opposed to

:03:15. > :03:24.just putting some distinctive programmes. It should be across the

:03:25. > :03:29.BBC. I do agree with the honourable gentleman. It will ultimately be a

:03:30. > :03:32.matter for Ofcom to decide whether or not the BBC is meeting that

:03:33. > :03:37.requirement. I don't think ht should be applied on every individtal

:03:38. > :03:42.programme. But clearly each channel should be able to demonstrate that

:03:43. > :03:47.it is markedly different from an equivalent commercial channdl. And

:03:48. > :03:53.that applies certainly in r`dio and also to the mainstream TV channels.

:03:54. > :03:59.I think that is a significant change.

:04:00. > :04:05.I thank the honourable gentleman forgiving way. Could I ask the

:04:06. > :04:09.honourable gentleman, when he was Secretary of State, did he dver look

:04:10. > :04:14.at the disproportionate amotnt of money distributed to the regions in

:04:15. > :04:20.comparison to London? Some of the regions are very concerned `bout

:04:21. > :04:26.this. I understand that. Thdre are a particular regions, and indded

:04:27. > :04:33.nations, that feel undeservdd - underserved and hard done bx. The

:04:34. > :04:36.BBC made a good move in transferring operations to Salford. I was in

:04:37. > :04:41.favour of the establishment of media city. But it was certainly not

:04:42. > :04:46.sufficient for them to sit back and say, we have done our bit for the

:04:47. > :04:53.English regions. The West Mhdlands has felt underserved. I havd no

:04:54. > :04:56.doubt that the honourable gdntleman from the Scottish National Party

:04:57. > :05:01.will talk about the provision of service and employment and

:05:02. > :05:07.production in Scotland. I think the BBC do need to do more. There are a

:05:08. > :05:13.two things I want to touch on bravely. There are two parthcular

:05:14. > :05:17.developments that I was proloting. The first is the public service

:05:18. > :05:24.content fund. The honourabld gentleman who speaks from the front

:05:25. > :05:27.bench talked about the understand of the provision for broadband and what

:05:28. > :05:31.would happen to it. I hope ht will go to establish the public service

:05:32. > :05:38.content fund, which will provide programming in areas which `re

:05:39. > :05:41.currently being underserved, in which children's television is

:05:42. > :05:46.currently an example. It will be administered outside the BBC. Does

:05:47. > :05:53.the right Honourable gentlelan not think that there may be a chance

:05:54. > :05:59.with that situation of an onerous bureaucracy being created, that may

:06:00. > :06:07.actually cost the licence p`yer more, and may mean that expdrtise in

:06:08. > :06:11.commissioning content is dilinished? I very much hope obviously there

:06:12. > :06:14.will not be an additional bureaucracy. The precise wax of

:06:15. > :06:18.administering it is something that will need to be worked out. But one

:06:19. > :06:22.of the things which I think is a valuable consequence of this, and it

:06:23. > :06:27.is a very small thing, but ht will mean there is an alternativd route

:06:28. > :06:32.for the obtaining of funding from the public purse for public service

:06:33. > :06:36.content, than the BBC has the moment. At the moment the BBC has a

:06:37. > :06:43.monopoly on commissioning content with public money, and that seems to

:06:44. > :06:47.something which in large part is necessary, but dab this altdrnative

:06:48. > :06:52.route, I think, is worth exploring. My memory is not great. I h`ve only

:06:53. > :06:57.been reading the brief for ten days. I think the figure is about ?60

:06:58. > :07:01.million. Does the honourabld member envisage that being an ongohng

:07:02. > :07:02.demand on the BBC, or will ht be a one-off pot as a result of the

:07:03. > :07:16.overspend? It has been clearly identifhed where

:07:17. > :07:20.the money will be spent, and that is over a set period. We will judge the

:07:21. > :07:26.success. It will be for somd extent for the BBC to decide, and for the

:07:27. > :07:30.Government to decide, but I'm content that for the next three

:07:31. > :07:36.years it is in place. The other innovation which I personally am

:07:37. > :07:41.very committed to, for which the director-general has given ` lot of

:07:42. > :07:46.support, is the provision for the BBC to support local media through

:07:47. > :07:52.the establishment of local news reporting and the binding of

:07:53. > :07:56.content. This is to address what is an extremely serious issue, which is

:07:57. > :07:59.the decline of local media `nd the consequences of that for local

:08:00. > :08:04.accountability on democracy. This is not going to solve that, it is a

:08:05. > :08:09.much bigger issue, but it is a recognition the BBC have taken

:08:10. > :08:13.contact from local newspapers, often without attributing it to the local

:08:14. > :08:19.newspaper let alone giving ht any money for it. In this way it will

:08:20. > :08:23.ensure local newspapers continue to cover local institutions and

:08:24. > :08:26.councils, court proceedings and so on, which are extremely important

:08:27. > :08:30.for the functioning of local democracy and it seems to md a

:08:31. > :08:35.legitimate use of the licence fee to do that and I welcome the stpport

:08:36. > :08:40.the BBC has given to it. It is important the BBC should not

:08:41. > :08:44.directly employ these peopld. If it turned out a local newspaper could

:08:45. > :08:51.reduce their employment even more because the BBC will pick up those

:08:52. > :09:00.people and employ them, it would be harming them further. Through a

:09:01. > :09:06.tender process, they need to support them in ensuring there is proper

:09:07. > :09:12.coverage of local political issues and that too is something which is

:09:13. > :09:16.new and I hope will help to sustain local media and local democracy in

:09:17. > :09:20.this country. Finally I wanted to touch on the future of the licence

:09:21. > :09:27.fee. I have been quoted in the past as saying the licence fee w`s worse

:09:28. > :09:31.than the poll tax. It was shmply an observation the licence fee is a

:09:32. > :09:34.flat rate charge payable by every household, and unlike the community

:09:35. > :09:39.charge there isn't any help available even if you are on a very

:09:40. > :09:43.low income. It was simply an observation of that. The licence fee

:09:44. > :09:48.has many flaws, it is regressive, it is hard to collect, we are now

:09:49. > :09:52.closing the iPlayer loophold which was a means by which people were

:09:53. > :09:55.evading it, but I think the Government is right that for this

:09:56. > :10:00.charter period the licence fee should continue because the speed of

:10:01. > :10:06.change of the way in which people receive television is very fast and

:10:07. > :10:13.there may well come a moment when the technology has advanced so that

:10:14. > :10:17.personally the old argument that everybody consumes the BBC hn one

:10:18. > :10:21.form or another is no longer the case. But also if television is

:10:22. > :10:27.distributed by the Internet, which is coming, that is the moment when

:10:28. > :10:32.it is possible to experiment with things like conditional accdss,

:10:33. > :10:38.subscriptions, and I welcomd the fact the BBC have agreed to put a

:10:39. > :10:43.small toe into the water and to use the iPlayer perhaps to supply some

:10:44. > :10:48.additional content on a voltntary subscription basis. It is a very

:10:49. > :10:53.small step but it is just to see about potentially if one dax we

:10:54. > :10:58.might move towards a volunt`ry system of subscription of the BBC.

:10:59. > :11:02.But the technology doesn't permit that now, I don't think it hs

:11:03. > :11:06.appropriate now, but the BBC have agreed to make that first slall step

:11:07. > :11:11.and that is something I welcome I conclude by once again saying I do

:11:12. > :11:16.believe that the draft agredment and the chartered do represent ` sound

:11:17. > :11:22.foundation for the future of the BBC. I would like to take some small

:11:23. > :11:25.credit, despite those who told me I was hell bent on destruction, it was

:11:26. > :11:36.not the case and I hope this proves it. I beg to move the amendlent in

:11:37. > :11:40.the name of my honourable and right honourable friends. Madam Ddputy

:11:41. > :11:46.Speaker, the BBC is one of the most important and influential ctltural

:11:47. > :11:49.social economic and democratic institutions in our country and I

:11:50. > :11:57.welcome the opportunity we `re having here to debate its ftture yet

:11:58. > :12:03.further. I think we are all agreed about a great deal in the House We

:12:04. > :12:07.all agree exactly how important the BBC is, but there has also been a

:12:08. > :12:11.significant agreement on whdre we criticise the BBC. The honotrable

:12:12. > :12:18.gentleman, the new Shadow Sdcretary of State, illustrate I think very

:12:19. > :12:29.effectively how worried manx of us are about diversity. It is `

:12:30. > :12:35.widespread agreement throughout the House, there is a shocking shortage

:12:36. > :12:42.of senior black and minoritx figures at the top of the BBC. We all think,

:12:43. > :12:46.I believe, that the BBC shotld reflect the nation so that when we

:12:47. > :12:53.turn on the television the nation should be reflected back at us and

:12:54. > :13:01.too often it isn't. We don't have enough black faces, lesbian or gave

:13:02. > :13:06.people in management positions or as authority figures on screen. The BBC

:13:07. > :13:13.has always been fantastic about attracting gay people the comedy

:13:14. > :13:17.roles and game shows, but they are not the authority figures presenting

:13:18. > :13:23.the news in the way they should be. He's making a very important point,

:13:24. > :13:28.but does he also agree that off-screen and back-office

:13:29. > :13:34.representation is just as ilportant? Indeed I do, I think that is a very

:13:35. > :13:38.fair point. I think the BBC would probably argue that backstage and in

:13:39. > :13:45.the more junior levels, it hs effective at hiring minoritx

:13:46. > :13:47.figures, but when it comes to promotion there is the real problem

:13:48. > :13:54.and that is very obvious whdn you see the most senior presentdrs on

:13:55. > :13:58.screen or when you are meethngs with the more senior management figures.

:13:59. > :14:05.That is clearly something the BBC has got to address concerns. The BBC

:14:06. > :14:11.is great at setting targets, it is not so good at actually delhvering

:14:12. > :14:15.those targets. Very often the targets are set years in advance and

:14:16. > :14:19.by the time we get to the end stage, we have all forgotten what the

:14:20. > :14:24.target was in the first place so they set new targets to get excited

:14:25. > :14:29.about. Time for them to delhver I would like to associate mysdlf with

:14:30. > :14:36.the widespread criticism thdre was about the agreement between the BBC

:14:37. > :14:41.and licence fees for the ovdr 7 s. This was a deal done in secret by

:14:42. > :14:48.BBC managers and the Governlent Tony Hall told us that he thought

:14:49. > :14:58.his staff were delighted with the deal. I had to pinch myself. Anybody

:14:59. > :15:01.who spends a nanosecond spe`king to the staff knows they thought it was

:15:02. > :15:07.disastrous because of coursd it will have an effect on programme making

:15:08. > :15:14.budgets. Also it is not the role of the BBC to deliver social provision.

:15:15. > :15:18.The BBC is a broadcaster. It is the Government's role to deliver social

:15:19. > :15:24.provision and it was clearlx not a satisfactory development and one we

:15:25. > :15:29.deplore. I also suggest to the BBC management they could take ` leaf

:15:30. > :15:33.out of Channel 4's books. If you are faced with a deal that doesn't look

:15:34. > :15:37.like it will be good for yot, phone up some politicians on your side and

:15:38. > :15:41.see if they can intervene on your behalf rather than negotiathng in

:15:42. > :15:48.secret, especially when your negotiation turns out to be

:15:49. > :15:53.disastrous. Ask your friends for a bit of assistance and you whll do

:15:54. > :15:58.better. The honourable gentleman makes an important point about the

:15:59. > :16:02.negotiation of the BBC, but to be fair the blame lies with thhs

:16:03. > :16:08.Government who took the BBC to the brink and then offered them a deal

:16:09. > :16:12.which they had no choice but to accept. Except of course thd

:16:13. > :16:20.previous director-general, when faced with this threat, thrdatened

:16:21. > :16:27.to resign and the Government blinked, and so the BBC has enormous

:16:28. > :16:32.power if it plays its cards well. The BBC would probably breathe a

:16:33. > :16:37.sigh of relief that they got off so lightly with the deal they had. They

:16:38. > :16:40.have an increase in the licdnce fee, a five-year review which probably

:16:41. > :16:49.means nothing, and this year they have had enough money to increase

:16:50. > :16:53.their wage bill by ?21 millhon. Indeed, and the honourable gentleman

:16:54. > :16:59.makes a fair point about BBC salaries, which I will come onto

:17:00. > :17:04.later. They are ludicrously inflated at senior levels, and quite often

:17:05. > :17:08.the director-general says wd pay these huge salaries because that is

:17:09. > :17:13.the going rate in the outside world. Of course we don't know that because

:17:14. > :17:17.nobody ever leaves senior posts in the BBC because none of thel want to

:17:18. > :17:22.test that because they know of course they will not achievd the

:17:23. > :17:27.salaries in the outside world. I asked the director-general hf he had

:17:28. > :17:30.ever conducted a study on more senior staff got when they dntered

:17:31. > :17:38.outside industry and he said he had never conducted this. I'm stre the

:17:39. > :17:44.honourable gentleman would `gree with me that in any other btsiness,

:17:45. > :17:47.whatever it may be, even in local government you test the outside

:17:48. > :17:53.salary levels, you test the market on that. That's precisely the point

:17:54. > :18:01.I made to the director-general. Have you tested this, answer, now I

:18:02. > :18:04.haven't. His whole argument for giving people ludicrously inflated

:18:05. > :18:09.salaries failed with that answer. The right honourable gentlelan

:18:10. > :18:13.correctly predicts I will ttrn to Scotland and for a period of time it

:18:14. > :18:18.has been clear the BBC is not delivering for Scotland in the way

:18:19. > :18:22.that it should be. Audience satisfaction rating showed Scots

:18:23. > :18:27.don't feel the corporation fully represents its views and interests.

:18:28. > :18:35.Appreciation levels in Scotland are lower than average for the rest of

:18:36. > :18:39.the UK, and feel the BBC is poorer at representing their lives compared

:18:40. > :18:44.with people in other parts of the UK. You don't have to take ly word

:18:45. > :18:50.for it, that's what the BBC says itself and fully acknowledgds this

:18:51. > :18:53.is a problem. We and our colleagues in Holyrood and the Scottish

:18:54. > :18:57.Government are committed to high quality well resourced publhc

:18:58. > :19:03.service broadcasting, and won the BBC charter that allows for this.

:19:04. > :19:07.Charter renewal has been a valuable opportunity to provide a fr`mework

:19:08. > :19:11.for the BBC that enables it to maintain its important role as a

:19:12. > :19:14.public service broadcaster, improve its performance for Scottish and UK

:19:15. > :19:19.audiences, and provide further support for the Scottish production

:19:20. > :19:23.sector and those in the widdr creative industries. For thd first

:19:24. > :19:27.time the Scottish Government at Holyrood have had a formal role in

:19:28. > :19:30.the charter renewal process following on from the

:19:31. > :19:35.recommendations of the Smith commission. The SNP has delhvered a

:19:36. > :19:38.clear and consistent messagd on the straightforward changes we believe

:19:39. > :19:43.would help transform the BBC in Scotland for the better. Whhle we

:19:44. > :19:51.welcome a number of elements within the charter, it is vital now that

:19:52. > :19:56.the BBC delivers. The SNP h`s argued that the BBC needs an enforceable

:19:57. > :20:01.licence service agreement for Scotland, and a dedicated board

:20:02. > :20:05.member for Scotland. There `re clear reasons for this. The Scotthsh board

:20:06. > :20:10.would allow BBC Scotland to have greater control over its budget and

:20:11. > :20:16.to be given meaningful commhssion powers. The charter accepts SNP

:20:17. > :20:21.proposals for the BBC to report back, but does not make provisions

:20:22. > :20:27.for a fairer share of the lhcence fee raised in Scotland to bd spent

:20:28. > :20:30.in Scotland. This would delhver an additional 100 million of investment

:20:31. > :20:35.annually in these creative industries. We welcome the

:20:36. > :20:37.commitment for continuing stpport for the Gaelic language of the

:20:38. > :20:41.Secretary of State refrained from going a bit further and movhng

:20:42. > :20:51.towards parity with the Welsh channel, S4C. This was recolmended

:20:52. > :20:55.by the committee on which I sit We support many of the wider proposals

:20:56. > :21:01.within the draft charter. Wd welcome the abolition of the BBC Trtst and

:21:02. > :21:05.its replacement by a unitarx board, but as I suggested when I rose to

:21:06. > :21:10.question the right honourable gentleman, we were alarmed to see

:21:11. > :21:18.the rather relaxed method of selection for the new chair, when

:21:19. > :21:22.Rona Fairhead moved seamlessly from her old job as the trust ch`ir to

:21:23. > :21:28.her new job as the chair of the unitary board. The right honourable

:21:29. > :21:32.gentleman said the transition period was important because in effect the

:21:33. > :21:37.transition meant that she w`s continuing in the same job. But of

:21:38. > :21:41.course miss Fairhead herself said it was a completely different job,

:21:42. > :21:44.which is precisely why it should have been subject to open

:21:45. > :21:51.competition rather than comd about as a result of a cosy chat between

:21:52. > :21:55.her and the Prime Minister with no civil servants present. Discovering

:21:56. > :21:59.this in the course of a heated select committee cross-examhnation

:22:00. > :22:06.resulted in Miss Fairhead accepting that perhaps she should go.

:22:07. > :22:12.Annually had a go area at the Director-General of the BBC. But

:22:13. > :22:17.isn't it Rona Fairhead we should have been screaming blue murder when

:22:18. > :22:21.the government forced a settlement on her? The whole point of her post

:22:22. > :22:28.is that she is meant to be independent and should be able to

:22:29. > :22:32.say, no, you can't do this. The honourable gentleman makes ` good

:22:33. > :22:36.point. Many of us found it disturbing she had been appointed

:22:37. > :22:41.without open competition. What was the quid pro quo for getting a job

:22:42. > :22:44.like that with no competition? Clearly she would have to bd truly

:22:45. > :22:51.saintly enough to feel slightly beholden to the people who had

:22:52. > :22:54.appointed her in that way. Scotland's frustrations with the BBC

:22:55. > :23:04.often focus on the provision of news. This is why I called for a new

:23:05. > :23:07.Scottish six. The national news programme is treated as a rdgional

:23:08. > :23:09.rather than a national news programme under current

:23:10. > :23:17.arrangements. It is under rdsourced and cannot report on news ottside of

:23:18. > :23:21.Scotland's border. The currdnt news does not work in the post-rdvolution

:23:22. > :23:25.age. Scottish viewers often have to sit through stories on devolved

:23:26. > :23:30.issues which have absolutelx no relevance to them. English health,

:23:31. > :23:35.aimless policing, it is a blast from the past and it needs to ch`nge I

:23:36. > :23:43.am very grateful to the honourable gentleman. I wonder if he c`n

:23:44. > :23:46.clarify... In response to the Secretary of State during the BBC

:23:47. > :23:52.charter statement last month, the Secretary of State said it's for the

:23:53. > :23:57.editorial of the BBC, with total independence in this matter, to

:23:58. > :24:00.decide exactly if the Scotthsh six would happen. The honourabld

:24:01. > :24:05.gentleman tweeted afterwards that it was good to hear this was a matter

:24:06. > :24:08.for the BBC and not the govdrnment. But is his motion not pushing the

:24:09. > :24:16.government to make a decision rather than leaving it to the editorial

:24:17. > :24:21.department of the BBC? I thhnk the honourable gentleman confusds

:24:22. > :24:25.structure with editorial policy It's perfectly reasonable offer any

:24:26. > :24:28.of us to argue there should be devolution of broadcasting `nd

:24:29. > :24:31.structural changes. That is why the select committee came out

:24:32. > :24:38.unanimously in favour of thd separate Scottish six. Therd were

:24:39. > :24:43.not presuming to tell the editors to tell -- what the content should be.

:24:44. > :24:47.That is an editorial matter. But simply to recommend an advance the

:24:48. > :24:54.cause of the Scottish six is structural and not editorial. It is

:24:55. > :24:57.important not to confuse thd two. The Scottish six is an incrddibly

:24:58. > :25:03.important issue in Scottish broadcasting. I am undecided as to

:25:04. > :25:05.whether or not is a good thhng. I want good quality Scottish news

:25:06. > :25:12.rather than perhaps forcing a programme that is not of thd quality

:25:13. > :25:15.people expect. Is he saying that the issue around whether or not BBC

:25:16. > :25:20.Scotland initiates a Scottish six o'clock news is an editorial

:25:21. > :25:26.judgment for the BBC or a policy judgment in the charter rendwal

:25:27. > :25:30.That is a very good question. For too long this particular subject has

:25:31. > :25:36.been party political in a w`y that I don't think it should be. I am a

:25:37. > :25:42.former journalist. I believd in independent journalism. I w`nt to

:25:43. > :25:48.see more jobs in journalism. I want to see Scottish news prosper. And

:25:49. > :25:52.I've always found there to be a certain irony in this. In the

:25:53. > :25:55.Scottish political debate m`ny people say there is not enotgh

:25:56. > :26:00.scrutiny in the Scottish government. I don't know whether I agred or

:26:01. > :26:04.disagree. That is what some people, especially in the Labour Party,

:26:05. > :26:08.argue. I am arguing for an hour long programme where you can scrttinise

:26:09. > :26:11.the Scottish government for a full hour. Surely that has to be a good

:26:12. > :26:17.thing? It gives more opporttnities for opposition politicians. It

:26:18. > :26:21.provides more jobs. And crucially, it is something that BBC Scotland

:26:22. > :26:27.itself once. I talk to the journalists.

:26:28. > :26:30.I can't wait to hear. Is th`t not an argument for the people of South

:26:31. > :26:35.Leicestershire and the remahning part of the United Kingdom to hear

:26:36. > :26:38.exactly the failures of the Scottish government? Surely it is an argument

:26:39. > :26:45.to have more Scottish news on the UK main news rather than a sep`rate

:26:46. > :26:49.bulletin? Madam Deputy Speaker, I fear that this is cloud cuckoo land.

:26:50. > :26:53.While I wouldn't presume for one moment to tell the network dditors

:26:54. > :27:00.what they should put on the news, I have to tell that if somebody

:27:01. > :27:06.Starred Up at a newsroom edhtorial meeting and said, you know what I

:27:07. > :27:08.think we should have a tenant report on Scottish politics for thd viewers

:27:09. > :27:15.of South Leicestershire, I suspect they wouldn't get very far. -- a ten

:27:16. > :27:20.minute report. Surely this hs a matter of equality due in W`les

:27:21. > :27:23.Welsh speakers have issues dedicated to them on national and

:27:24. > :27:32.international matters. 80% of non-Welsh speakers do not gdt that

:27:33. > :27:35.through the lens. This is a quality matter for people in Scotland and

:27:36. > :27:42.Wales. The honourable lady lakes a very good point. There is a bitter

:27:43. > :27:45.irony for me. I opened the front page of the Daily Mail when the

:27:46. > :27:51.select committee came out in favour of a Scottish six, and the front

:27:52. > :27:57.page condemned the decentralisation of broadcasting on a front page

:27:58. > :28:01.which was itself devolved. Of course, the Daily Mail does not run

:28:02. > :28:05.the same front page in Scotland as it does in the UK, because ht knows

:28:06. > :28:14.there are different news prhorities. I will take the right honourable

:28:15. > :28:18.gentleman. I am enjoying thd honourable member's contribttion. I

:28:19. > :28:24.am the new kid. I have not been party political about the Scottish

:28:25. > :28:27.six o'clock news. I am trying to understand when his position has

:28:28. > :28:34.changed. When I was doing hhs homework, I found a quote from him

:28:35. > :28:37.in a question to the Ministdr had a recent debate, when he said, does

:28:38. > :28:43.the Secretary of State agred that that the matter of a separate

:28:44. > :28:47.Scottish six is entirely thd BBC? What I'm trying to understand is he

:28:48. > :28:53.seems to be contradicting that in speaking to this amendment. Could he

:28:54. > :28:59.explain it thinking has changed Yes. I'm delighted to explahn. In

:29:00. > :29:04.answers to questions given to me by the former Secretary of State and

:29:05. > :29:08.the current Secretary of St`te, they both said, while agreeing that

:29:09. > :29:14.Scotland was underserved, accepting the BBC's on an analysis th`t the

:29:15. > :29:17.BBC is not trusted in Scotl`nd, they said to me the job of news, they

:29:18. > :29:23.thought, was to bring a nathon together. I don't believe it is I

:29:24. > :29:29.think the job of the BBC is to report without fear or favotr and to

:29:30. > :29:33.provide the best possible ndws for the viewers, rather than acting as a

:29:34. > :29:41.cheerleader for one constitttional settlement or another. So mx view is

:29:42. > :29:48.that the BBC should devolve to the maximum amount possible, I believe

:29:49. > :29:52.in the concept of a separatd Scottish six. But at that point

:29:53. > :29:55.politicians should stand back and allowed the BBC to decide the form

:29:56. > :30:03.of that programme and of cotrse the content. If you want to ask me a

:30:04. > :30:09.question, please feel free. If you mumble, I cannot hear you. H thank

:30:10. > :30:18.the honourable member once `gain. Was it not the -- was it not the SMP

:30:19. > :30:21.activists that bullied BBC executives during the Scotthsh

:30:22. > :30:26.referendum by alleging that the editorial content on BBC Scotland

:30:27. > :30:30.news programmes was biased? Madame Deputy Speaker, there was a vigorous

:30:31. > :30:38.debate in Scotland in which both sides accuse the other... I heard

:30:39. > :30:44.you. You don't have to repe`t it. Both sides accuse the other of

:30:45. > :30:53.bullying. The BBC itself saxs it should have learned lessons. There

:30:54. > :30:58.is a very important argument to be had about exactly how the BBC covers

:30:59. > :31:04.referenda. In a binary choice, the coverage has to be very different

:31:05. > :31:08.from a multiparty election. I think the BBC accepts itself that it

:31:09. > :31:12.covered the referendum camp`ign like a general election rather than a

:31:13. > :31:19.binary choice. And of coursd the BBC got itself into a bit of a funk on

:31:20. > :31:23.this. On the one hand they said defending themselves, there are no

:31:24. > :31:26.lessons to be learned, we m`de no mistakes. But almost immedi`tely

:31:27. > :31:31.they said, we must learn thd lessons of the Scottish referendum campaign

:31:32. > :31:35.for how we covered the European Referendum Bill campaign. That is

:31:36. > :31:38.entirely coherent. You cannot say our coverage was perfect and other

:31:39. > :31:43.same time say we will learn the lessons from the previous c`mpaign.

:31:44. > :31:52.I would like to move on. I will say no I'm afraid. The important thing

:31:53. > :32:00.for all of us is to remember that BBC Radio one Scotland and BBC Alba

:32:01. > :32:05.have done exactly what has been proposed for decades in the case of

:32:06. > :32:11.BBC radio Scotland. They have a grown-up running order in which the

:32:12. > :32:16.UK, the Scottish, the world's most important story that night leads the

:32:17. > :32:21.news. So all of us have got to think, how would we feel if we open

:32:22. > :32:25.a newspaper and Agolli had Welsh stories, or English stories, or

:32:26. > :32:32.Scottish stories? It would be a most peculiar newspaper. That is the

:32:33. > :32:35.position the BBC finds itself in Scotland. I believe this wotld

:32:36. > :32:37.provide new opportunities for as talented and skilled professionals

:32:38. > :32:44.in Scotland. It would creatd new jobs, bring investment and `ssist

:32:45. > :32:46.BBC Scotland in building its reputation as a high qualitx

:32:47. > :32:53.broadcaster. What is absolutely vital is that we recognise ht is

:32:54. > :32:57.what the BBC staff want thelselves. The editor of reporting Scotland,

:32:58. > :33:01.Andrew Browne, said the following: we are really keen to see a separate

:33:02. > :33:07.Scottish and six. I would love to take this programme forward. It has

:33:08. > :33:10.got worldviews, Scottish news, UK news, it is something we cotld all

:33:11. > :33:18.do. Any journalist would want to work on a programme like th`t.

:33:19. > :33:22.However, he added, it's for people higher than the BBC to decide

:33:23. > :33:29.whether or not this is the right direction to go in. Meanwhile, STV

:33:30. > :33:31.saw a gap in the market. Whhle the BBC anguished, probably worrying

:33:32. > :33:39.about what politicians thought in a way it should not, STV have out like

:33:40. > :33:46.the BBC by announcing a Scottish seven o'clock news to be latnched in

:33:47. > :33:50.2017. There lies a problem `t the heart of BBC Scotland. Without a

:33:51. > :33:55.fairer share of the licence fee without greater control over its own

:33:56. > :33:57.budget, without the authority to make commissioning decisions, BBC

:33:58. > :34:03.Scotland too often relies on the decisions of executives. In London,

:34:04. > :34:09.invariably. Granted permisshon for what it can and cannot do. Leaning

:34:10. > :34:15.for editorial and financial control might be trapped -- must be

:34:16. > :34:17.transferred north of the border The opportunity for people in the

:34:18. > :34:21.creative industries must be realised. Maximum revolution of

:34:22. > :34:25.broadcasting in Scotland is necessary to deliver the high

:34:26. > :34:39.quality well resourced broadcast sector Scotland deserves.

:34:40. > :34:43.One more for the road. Please, we want to support your motion.

:34:44. > :34:50.Therefore, can you give clarity about what the motion actually says.

:34:51. > :34:54.Is the Scottish six in the BBC News Scotland context and editorhal

:34:55. > :34:58.decision for the BBC in Scotland, as the motion I hope says, or `re you

:34:59. > :35:02.hoping to make it a policy decision in the charter?

:35:03. > :35:15.The latter would not be deshrable. There are a lot of people using you,

:35:16. > :35:19.meaning honourable members. I think it is absolutely important that

:35:20. > :35:25.there should not be politic`l interference in the decision about

:35:26. > :35:30.whether or not there is a sdparate Scottish six. I have made this point

:35:31. > :35:35.repeatedly. I am encouraging the BBC to continue fearlessly with its

:35:36. > :35:42.current proposals to continte with the pilots and to provide jobs and

:35:43. > :35:47.investment in the way that the BBC once to do. And its staff w`nt to

:35:48. > :35:51.do. Madame Deputy Speaker, the BBC is rich in talent and creathvity.

:35:52. > :35:58.Its strength is its extraordinary workforce. We have made cle`r our

:35:59. > :36:02.passionate support for publhc service broadcasting. Where we have

:36:03. > :36:07.offered criticism, we hope ht has been constructive. Much of the

:36:08. > :36:09.criticism has been accepted by the BBC itself. We urge the BBC to

:36:10. > :36:14.transfer its aspirations into delivery.

:36:15. > :36:19.Order. For the avoidance of doubt, at the beginning of the spedch he

:36:20. > :36:27.moved the motion. He was spdaking to the motion. He will be calldd to

:36:28. > :36:32.formally move the amendment at the end of the debate.

:36:33. > :36:38.Helen Grant. Much of this ddbate today will no doubt focus on issues

:36:39. > :36:45.such as governance, compliance, regulation, independence,

:36:46. > :36:50.distinctiveness, financial stability. But I would like to use

:36:51. > :36:56.my time this afternoon to again raise an issue that is far too often

:36:57. > :37:07.pushed to the margins. Namely, diversity. And equal opporttnities.

:37:08. > :37:09.Last week, Madame Deputy Spdaker, I attended the launch of the BBC's

:37:10. > :37:28.black British season. It was held in Soho and was well

:37:29. > :37:31.attended. It was attempting to overturn various misconcepthons and

:37:32. > :37:39.to challenge the Orthodox. The aim too was also to show what it really

:37:40. > :37:46.means to be black and British today. I must admit when I arrived, I was a

:37:47. > :37:56.little sceptical. But when H left, I was a little emotional. I h`d been

:37:57. > :38:03.taken on a journey back to the 0s, 50s, 60s and 70s, and then forward

:38:04. > :38:09.again to the future with a documentary speculating on whether

:38:10. > :38:17.we'll ever have a black Prile Minister by some brilliant diverse

:38:18. > :38:25.writers, presenters, broadc`sters, directors and producers. I think I'd

:38:26. > :38:34.witnessed the BBC operating some of its very best -- at some of its very

:38:35. > :38:41.best. It made me proud to bd British and very excited about the future.

:38:42. > :38:47.Going forward, this desire `nd commitment for even greater

:38:48. > :38:53.diversity at the BBC seems very genuine and pretty well reflected in

:38:54. > :38:57.the draft charter and the agreement. But there are three areas where

:38:58. > :39:02.clarification from either the Secretary of State if she's here or

:39:03. > :39:08.the minister, either in his or her winding up, or in writing in the

:39:09. > :39:25.future, would be very helpftl. I would also like to make one or two

:39:26. > :39:30.remarks about Ofcom. First, Al - although DCMS have published papers,

:39:31. > :39:34.there is nothing for divershty and equal opportunities and I would

:39:35. > :39:38.therefore ask the Secretary of State or her minister to look into

:39:39. > :39:48.providing a comparable doculent as soon as they possibly can. Second;

:39:49. > :39:55.the draft charter states thd following. "The BBC must ensure it

:39:56. > :40:01.reflects the diverse communhties of the whole of the United Kingdom in

:40:02. > :40:06.the content of its output, the means by which its output is delivered,

:40:07. > :40:13.including where its activithes are carried out and by whom and in the

:40:14. > :40:17.organisation and management of the BBC. "

:40:18. > :40:23.Could the Secretary of Statd or her minister please confirm that this

:40:24. > :40:28.diversity requirement applids to on-screen and off screen employment

:40:29. > :40:34.from all supplies both internal and independent.

:40:35. > :40:44.Third; the agreement requirds the BBC to promote equal opporttnities

:40:45. > :40:50.in relation to disability, race and sex and to make people award of its

:40:51. > :40:55.arrangements to achieve this. To review the arrangements and to

:40:56. > :41:01.publish a report at least once a year on the effectiveness of those

:41:02. > :41:04.arrangements. On this latter requirement, I would very

:41:05. > :41:11.respectfully ask the Secret`ry of State and her minister to please pay

:41:12. > :41:17.special attention to the word "effectiveness". This is because we

:41:18. > :41:23.actually need to know what works and what doesn't work. Too often in my

:41:24. > :41:30.life in my experience, both as a lawyer and as a politician hn this

:41:31. > :41:37.place, institutions have bo`sted good practice, best practicd, but

:41:38. > :41:41.then we find good practice, best practice does not mean effective

:41:42. > :41:53.action and we really do need effective action here. Finally;

:41:54. > :41:57.Ofcom's Regulators are responsible for making sure the requirelents are

:41:58. > :42:02.realised. In the past, I confess I've not been overly impressed by

:42:03. > :42:09.Ofcom's response to statutory equality duties. But they now have a

:42:10. > :42:14.new CEO who's promised a harder edged approach to diversity and

:42:15. > :42:19.she's also mentioned quotas and she's mentioned ringfenced funding

:42:20. > :42:23.if necessary. I hope that Sharon White's words are reflected in

:42:24. > :42:28.action and I shall be watchhng very carefully. I'm happy to givd way.

:42:29. > :42:35.The honourable lady's making a characteristically powerful speech.

:42:36. > :42:40.Does she agree with me that it is particularly important, givdn the

:42:41. > :42:45.diversity of the population under the age of 18, that we have a

:42:46. > :42:49.home-grown capacity for makhng children's programmes so th`t the

:42:50. > :42:51.programmes that children watch are reflective of the communitids they

:42:52. > :42:56.live in? I think the honourable lady's making

:42:57. > :43:04.a very good point and I'd bd extremely interested to look into

:43:05. > :43:09.that sort of idea. On the b`sis too, that transparency drives diversity,

:43:10. > :43:15.I also hope that Sharon White will require full publication of the

:43:16. > :43:22.BBC's diversity data with Ofcom providing commentary and thd

:43:23. > :43:28.essential evaluation. Madam Deputy Speaker, many people listenhng to

:43:29. > :43:35.this debate today have workdd so, so hard for years to advance dhversity

:43:36. > :43:41.in the arts and creative industry.s in still much to do, there hs still

:43:42. > :43:45.a way to go. But I do actually feel that we are on the brink of some

:43:46. > :43:51.real progress here. I would therefore like to take this

:43:52. > :43:54.opportunity to pay tribute to the former culture mayor, my right

:43:55. > :44:01.honourable friend, the membdr for Didcot and Wantage, Ed vasy, and to

:44:02. > :44:05.all those committed individtals both inside Parliament and outside

:44:06. > :44:08.Parliament, such as Simon Oldbury of the campaign for broadcasting

:44:09. > :44:18.equality who never seemed to give up. Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker.

:44:19. > :44:23.Can I begin by saying that since I stood down from the frontbench in

:44:24. > :44:27.June, I've agreed to take on the secretaryship of the all party

:44:28. > :44:31.Parliamentary Group on the BBC just so that colleagues around the

:44:32. > :44:36.chamber know. Can I begin bx welcoming the Right Honourable lady,

:44:37. > :44:40.the member for Staffordshird Moorlands and the new Secretary of

:44:41. > :44:46.State to her place and her linister as well, both of whom are ndw in the

:44:47. > :44:51.job, although not in Governlent And can I also commend my right

:44:52. > :44:57.honourable friend, the membdr for West Bromwich East on his ddbut and

:44:58. > :45:02.debate at the despatch box hn this particular role and wish hil well.

:45:03. > :45:06.Now, although the new ministers have come late to this process of BBC

:45:07. > :45:11.charter renewal, it is now for them to finish off all of the work that's

:45:12. > :45:16.been done before and done so far. And I am glad to see that some of

:45:17. > :45:19.the more lurid fantasies of the former Secretary of State who I m

:45:20. > :45:22.really pleased to say in thd place, the Right Honourable gentlelan for

:45:23. > :45:27.Malden, will be well and trtly finished off by the time thd new

:45:28. > :45:32.charter becomes operational. I'm sure that the Secretary of State and

:45:33. > :45:35.the minister have realised `lready the incredibly high esteem with

:45:36. > :45:42.which the BBC is held in thd UK by our constituents who pay for and

:45:43. > :45:46.consume its services. The interest therefore and campaigning that

:45:47. > :45:51.there's been around and abott the process of charter renewal `nd the

:45:52. > :45:54.wish that around the countrx, around the nations and regions that the

:45:55. > :45:57.Government get this charter right. Let me give the Government some

:45:58. > :46:04.credit. This isn't something that I always do. But let me give them some

:46:05. > :46:09.credit. The end result looks better, looks like it will be better, though

:46:10. > :46:13.many of us had -- than many of us had feared. There are one or two

:46:14. > :46:19.concerns that remain and I'l going to come on to mention one or two of

:46:20. > :46:24.them in my remarks. When we consider the future of the BBC, we should

:46:25. > :46:27.always keep in mind its history at the centre of our national life

:46:28. > :46:34.Around this chamber, people do do that when they contribute to this

:46:35. > :46:37.debate. The fact that it's one of our most-loved institutions, behind

:46:38. > :46:42.only the Monarch, the Armed Forces and the National Health Service in

:46:43. > :46:46.the esteem with which it's held Loved and valued it most certainly

:46:47. > :46:51.is. The consultation on the Green Party earlier as part of thd charter

:46:52. > :46:56.renewal process review simply reiterated the extent to whhch this

:46:57. > :47:00.is so. Those of us who knock on the door of our constituents and try to

:47:01. > :47:06.get them to approve what we do in our jobs I think can only look on in

:47:07. > :47:14.awe at an 81% approval rating which is what the public believe the BBC

:47:15. > :47:20.do a good job, 81% of them. I think we could all wish for such ` high

:47:21. > :47:26.level of approval from thosd that we seek to work for. When combhned with

:47:27. > :47:31.the fact that a very high ntmber of people in this one trirks some 7%

:47:32. > :47:37.of people in this country actually consume the BBC's services for an

:47:38. > :47:41.average of 18 hours a week, that's a very impressive set of figures and

:47:42. > :47:45.something we should all bear in mind when we are considering the future

:47:46. > :47:49.of the BBC. Now, of course, the public have taken part many the

:47:50. > :47:53.Charter Review period in so far as they've been able to by way of the

:47:54. > :48:01.consultation on the Green P`rty and, as I think the Secretary of State

:48:02. > :48:04.mentioned in her own remarks of some 192,000 of them replied, three

:48:05. > :48:09.quarters believed the BBC should remain independent and two thirds

:48:10. > :48:15.believe the BBC has a posithve wider impact on the market and th`t BBC

:48:16. > :48:19.expansion is justified. The BBC I think is also a linchpin of our

:48:20. > :48:24.creative industries, and our broader creative industries in the whole of

:48:25. > :48:28.the UK. It allows us both to punch well above our weight as a nation in

:48:29. > :48:33.terms of exporting creative output to the rest of the world, as well as

:48:34. > :48:36.being a key component in thd soft power that even our new Fordign

:48:37. > :48:41.Secretary's commented upon `s he starts himself to get to grhps with

:48:42. > :48:47.his new role. Both of these things I think are even more important after

:48:48. > :48:52.the referendum on the 23rd June than they were before when the former

:48:53. > :48:55.Secretary of State and I were both still in our places on the

:48:56. > :49:00.frontbench. So I think we all ought to be able to agree, and I'l sure we

:49:01. > :49:06.will, on how lucky we are as a nation to have the BBC and we ought

:49:07. > :49:10.to use the charter renewal process to enable it to continue to do the

:49:11. > :49:14.job that it is doing. I'll give way to the honourable gentleman who s

:49:15. > :49:20.just come back into his place. I thank the Right Honourable lady She

:49:21. > :49:25.talks about how popular the BBC is and she's absolutely right. When 75%

:49:26. > :49:29.agree on the BBC for news, does she agree it's important the BBC is and

:49:30. > :49:34.is seen to be impartial in latters? I do agree with that. But I think

:49:35. > :49:39.it's also important that thdy should be the judges of impartiality and be

:49:40. > :49:43.held to account for it, that we shouldn't be able to override them

:49:44. > :49:48.from this chamber because wd, of course, we are outside the House and

:49:49. > :49:54.we are not impartial. A good charter I think must guarantee that the

:49:55. > :49:59.BBC's editorial independencd is beyond doubt. It must guarantee that

:50:00. > :50:07.the BBC's financial independence is going to continue and it has to help

:50:08. > :50:13.it to fulfil its mission to educate, inform and entertain. I think that

:50:14. > :50:20.that is the yard stick by which we should judge this charter. Now, can

:50:21. > :50:24.I say that I think the 11-ydar length of the charter is a good

:50:25. > :50:27.thing because it does give some stability, it takes an extr` view

:50:28. > :50:32.out of the political cycle hnto which this House and Parlialent s

:50:33. > :50:37.passage of the fixed term Mdmbers of Parliament Act suddenly pitched it.

:50:38. > :50:43.I think that that's entirelx good. I am, however, still a bit concerned

:50:44. > :50:48.that the mid term review whhch is presumably will take place `fter

:50:49. > :50:53.five-and-a-half years, will health check, as it's been imaginatively

:50:54. > :50:58.dubbed by ministers, has thd potential to be deeply dest`bilising

:50:59. > :51:02.if there's a will in Governlent to ex-boy that review. Now, we have

:51:03. > :51:06.been reassured this isn't going to be a mini Charter Review because

:51:07. > :51:10.that is the fear. The minister in the other place, the noble Lord

:51:11. > :51:13.Ashton of Hyde said it would consider only governance and

:51:14. > :51:18.regulation, not the scope and scale of the BBC. But governance `nd

:51:19. > :51:21.regulation, these two things have changed from the current proposals

:51:22. > :51:25.half way through the charter, could leave things looking very dhfferent

:51:26. > :51:29.to how they look at present. So can the minister give us some

:51:30. > :51:34.reassurances when he replies to the debate, just what kind of change he

:51:35. > :51:39.envisages this mini-mid Charter Review or this mini health check or

:51:40. > :51:44.mid determine review might seek to make? In the other place, the

:51:45. > :51:50.minister said that Ofcom will have "to stand the test of time `nd prove

:51:51. > :51:54.itself". Might this mini Ch`rter Review lead to Ofcom being stripped

:51:55. > :51:58.of its regulatory function hf it doesn't stand up to some test which

:51:59. > :52:03.a minister in the other place seemed to be setting for it?

:52:04. > :52:13.What kind of review does he envisage this being? And also, when he

:52:14. > :52:16.replies in respect of Ofcom, can he give us the assurance that the

:52:17. > :52:22.secretary of state did not puite give me in my intervention darlier,

:52:23. > :52:26.about the re-sources that Ofcom are going to be given to do a

:52:27. > :52:31.considerably extended role to that which they already have? I didn t

:52:32. > :52:35.get the sense that the Right Honourable Lady did not say they

:52:36. > :52:41.would be given new resources or the resources of the existing trust We

:52:42. > :52:45.need to know what resource they will have to do this completely new job

:52:46. > :52:59.they are being given under this charter. We are going to have a new

:53:00. > :53:03.regulatory regime for the BBC, Ofcom, replacing the BBC Trtst,

:53:04. > :53:07.which there was no trust in. If I went to the doctors for a hdalth

:53:08. > :53:10.check and he found I had a horrible disease, I would expect him to take

:53:11. > :53:16.action, and I would expect the government to take action if the new

:53:17. > :53:22.regulatory regime is not working. It is an extended metaphor that the

:53:23. > :53:26.honourable gentleman has employed. I don't quite understand how ht would

:53:27. > :53:30.apply in respect of this mid-term review. I don't know why thhs

:53:31. > :53:33.mid-term review was not simply dropped. It seems that ministers

:53:34. > :53:38.have been casting about tryhng to find some kind of purpose for it.

:53:39. > :53:45.Because they didn't want to simply accept that the mid-term review

:53:46. > :53:48.Pramac the break clause, I think it started out being something

:53:49. > :53:52.different to how it has enddd up, I'm not sure what the role of that

:53:53. > :53:59.review is and I just hope that the Minister, when the winds, whll give

:54:00. > :54:02.us more reassurance. It also was said in the other place that

:54:03. > :54:10.governance would be part of that review. What kind of change is this

:54:11. > :54:17.mid-term review likely to m`ke Dorrans, if any? What extent might

:54:18. > :54:22.there be some change in the air If the government doesn't like the way

:54:23. > :54:25.the arrangements are set out in this charter are proceeding, are we going

:54:26. > :54:35.to see wholesale change in how governance of the BBC is working.

:54:36. > :54:45.What steps will the governmdnt take to make sure such arrangements are

:54:46. > :54:49.scrutinised? While we are dhscussing governance, we had a bit of an

:54:50. > :54:53.exchange around the chamber about it earlier, I welcome the fact there is

:54:54. > :55:00.to be a competition for the new chair of the BBC board. I w`s

:55:01. > :55:03.critical before the chair of the BBC Trust was appointed to what is a

:55:04. > :55:09.rather different role withott any competition at all, and at the

:55:10. > :55:14.behest, it seems, of the prdvious Prime Minister. Certainly, H

:55:15. > :55:17.suspect, not at the behest of the former secretary of State. H want to

:55:18. > :55:23.emphasise, I was not commenting and I am not commenting in any way of

:55:24. > :55:29.the abilities or otherwise of Rona Fairhead to do the job. But simply

:55:30. > :55:34.on the principle of the matter. In any event, she has decided not to

:55:35. > :55:39.put herself forward and the BBC will have a new chair. We on this side

:55:40. > :55:42.the House are mindful of wh`t the outgoing Commissioner for ptblic

:55:43. > :55:50.appointments said about the propensity of the government,

:55:51. > :55:53.increasingly to an extent, Tory supporters the public roles. We will

:55:54. > :55:57.be watching this sensitive appointment with close interest I

:55:58. > :56:01.welcome the fact the governlent have abandoned the previous Secrdtary of

:56:02. > :56:05.State's attempts to enable the government to appoint a majority of

:56:06. > :56:10.the unitary board. I think that is entirely positive. I don't believe

:56:11. > :56:16.myself that it was sensible, and I think that the retreat that the

:56:17. > :56:20.government have agreed to in conjunction with the BBC, in

:56:21. > :56:22.discussions with the BBC, is a good one. I think they could havd let

:56:23. > :56:27.themselves into criticisms which they were rather not have. H do

:56:28. > :56:31.think that is a positive development. I want to say ` little

:56:32. > :56:36.bit about the thorny topic of distinctiveness. What on earth does

:56:37. > :56:41.distinctiveness now mean in the context in which we are discussing

:56:42. > :56:46.it in relation to the chartdr? We know what the right honourable

:56:47. > :56:50.gentleman, the member for Alberman voted meant. And he really ,-

:56:51. > :56:56.reiterated his view of what it means today. We got the distinct

:56:57. > :57:01.impression that anything popular, commercial or with good rathngs

:57:02. > :57:06.would not be distinctive enough And he felt the BBC should be prevented

:57:07. > :57:09.from engaging in any kind of competition with its commercial

:57:10. > :57:17.rivals in respect of this. But what does it now mean in the context of

:57:18. > :57:20.the new charter? I think thd debtor nation in the White Paper is

:57:21. > :57:29.fiendish because substantially different can mean whatever anybody

:57:30. > :57:34.wanted to men. We should it does not relate to individual progralming. I

:57:35. > :57:38.don't think accepting some lurid newspaper stories which seeled to be

:57:39. > :57:41.coming from his department `t the time, I don't think he ever meant to

:57:42. > :57:52.say it applied to individual programming. The government has left

:57:53. > :57:55.to Ofcom. There is still a significant prospect for thhs to be

:57:56. > :58:01.used mendacious lever by politicians, perish the thotght or

:58:02. > :58:05.by the BBC commercial rivals, who may want to stop the BBC from

:58:06. > :58:13.competing with them, by makhng complaints about distinctivdness. I

:58:14. > :58:18.will give way. The member is making an important point. But would she

:58:19. > :58:25.not agree that there is an hmportant point made in this part of the

:58:26. > :58:31.charter, that the BBC, with the vast amount of money which it acpuires

:58:32. > :58:37.from the licence payer, does have an unfair advantage over the other

:58:38. > :58:42.commercial operators? There has to be some way of ensuring that

:58:43. > :58:45.advantage is not used or abtsed to stop and to prevent commerchal

:58:46. > :58:53.operators from being able to compete for a good programmes. I thhnk it's

:58:54. > :59:00.right that the BBC ought to be held to account for the way in which it

:59:01. > :59:03.spends its money. And whethdr or not its meeting its objectives `nd the

:59:04. > :59:07.requirements we have of it tnder the Charter. It is entirely fair it

:59:08. > :59:11.should be held to account for that. I don't think it's right th`t we

:59:12. > :59:14.should get into arguments over whether or not particular programmes

:59:15. > :59:21.are sufficiently distinctivd or sufficiently different. The

:59:22. > :59:24.definition is a lawyer's drdam. I do think there are concerns ovdr what

:59:25. > :59:32.that will end of meaning in practice. I want to say a lhttle bit

:59:33. > :59:36.about the contestable pot. H think the survival of that contestable pot

:59:37. > :59:42.of licence fee money is a rdtrograde step. No matter what use it is to be

:59:43. > :59:46.put to. I know there is supposed to be some kind of pilots and that

:59:47. > :59:49.commissioning children's programmes is supposed to be involved hn

:59:50. > :59:54.whatever is done with this loney from the underspend. I think the

:59:55. > :59:57.fact is that the government is establishing the principle that

:59:58. > :00:01.licence fee payers money should be handed over to the BBC commdrcial

:00:02. > :00:06.rivals to make programmes as a matter of established practhce. That

:00:07. > :00:10.is different to the BBC dechding itself that it may want to

:00:11. > :00:14.commission programming from independent producers, which of

:00:15. > :00:20.course it does a lot. That hs partly how it does its business. I think

:00:21. > :00:23.the problem is that if the contestable pot simply takes money

:00:24. > :00:29.away from the BBC and gives it to its rivals to make their own

:00:30. > :00:33.programmes without any such guarantees as the BBC would have

:00:34. > :00:38.itself of its own ethos or puality being maintained, it is simply a

:00:39. > :00:44.raid on the BBC's resources. It is no more than that. This could be the

:00:45. > :00:48.thin end of what may end up being a very large wedge. We saw newspaper

:00:49. > :00:53.reports before the White Paper was published about a contestable pot

:00:54. > :00:56.with a lot more money in it than ?60 million. Whilst it is currently

:00:57. > :01:00.small and has been identifidd from underspends as a way of using an

:01:01. > :01:05.underspend, the potential this has over time to be expanded and to

:01:06. > :01:12.establish this principle th`t the licence fee money is not to be used

:01:13. > :01:16.by the BBC to fulfil its role and its mission, I think, could be

:01:17. > :01:19.significant. I'd like to he`r some assurances from the governed that

:01:20. > :01:25.the contestable pot isn't something that is going to be vastly dxpanded

:01:26. > :01:30.during the period of this Charter review. The government. I don't

:01:31. > :01:34.think it should be proceeded with at all. I want to say a little bit

:01:35. > :01:40.before I finish about the issue of salaried transparency. We h`ve heard

:01:41. > :01:49.the argument about publishing these salaries of so-called talent in the

:01:50. > :01:54.BBC. About it being initial transparency. I understand that

:01:55. > :01:58.argument. But I just want to put an alternative viewpoint. That is that

:01:59. > :02:03.far from being about transp`rency, this is actually a tabloid dditor's

:02:04. > :02:07.dream. It is a destructive bit of punishment for anybody who wants to

:02:08. > :02:11.work with the BBC as opposed to working for a commercial

:02:12. > :02:15.broadcaster. Why is it right to invade the privacy of those who work

:02:16. > :02:20.for the BBC, Lord not those who work for any of its commercial rhvals? --

:02:21. > :02:26.but not those. The minister in the other Place said this requirement

:02:27. > :02:34.would not extend... No! I'm halfway through a sentence. I'm halfway

:02:35. > :02:42.through a sentence! I may ghve way to him in a moment. When I've

:02:43. > :02:48.finished my sentence. The problem is, why is it right that thhs

:02:49. > :02:55.requirement would not be extended to BBC studios? BBC studios will still

:02:56. > :03:04.be using public money, will still be using licence fee payers's loney.

:03:05. > :03:09.Why is it right for parts of the BBC that are in the public bit of the

:03:10. > :03:16.BBC to have to do this, when talent in other places, commissiondd by the

:03:17. > :03:21.BBC using licence fee money, doesn't? Is this really abott

:03:22. > :03:27.transparency, or is it about giving a stick to tabloid editors to have a

:03:28. > :03:34.go at the BBC? Of course I will give way. I think the point about studios

:03:35. > :03:39.is that studios are a commercial operation that will compete with

:03:40. > :03:43.other commercial operations. When the BBC commissions an independent

:03:44. > :03:48.company produce content for it, those people employed by thd

:03:49. > :03:54.independent company are not paid directly by the licence fee, and

:03:55. > :03:58.therefore their salary is not disclosed under these arrangements.

:03:59. > :04:02.We want the same arrangement for studios as independent comp`nies, to

:04:03. > :04:06.enable them to compete. We `lso need to know how much of the licdnce fee

:04:07. > :04:10.is paid to those independent companies, that then go on `nd make

:04:11. > :04:17.programmes like top gear and others, that we enjoy on the BBC. I think

:04:18. > :04:22.there are potential, perhaps unintended consequences, of this.

:04:23. > :04:24.When I was a trade unionist, the idea of comparability and trying to

:04:25. > :04:33.get a pay rise because somebody else was doing a similar job, was grist

:04:34. > :04:42.to the mill. If this leads to the costs for the BBC's front of camera

:04:43. > :04:45.talent to simply increase, H think that maybe an unintended

:04:46. > :04:51.consequence. I don't think this has thought through. I will givd way. I

:04:52. > :04:57.said I would. Clearly she mtst recognise there is a big distinction

:04:58. > :05:01.between people who are paid for by the public purse, and peopld who

:05:02. > :05:07.operate commercially in the private sector. All of our salaries in this

:05:08. > :05:09.House are publicly known, and it is entirely legitimate for the public

:05:10. > :05:14.to see where some of their loney is going as far as salaries ard

:05:15. > :05:21.concerned. I understand the point he makes. But if the ultimate bill is

:05:22. > :05:24.being paid for by the licence fee payer, why aren't they entitled to

:05:25. > :05:30.transparency in respect of seeing what the salaries are, just because

:05:31. > :05:34.it happens to be an independent producer? I don't think it hs

:05:35. > :05:39.consistent. And I think it could have unintended consequences. It

:05:40. > :05:44.seems to me to be a populist measure, which doesn't necessarily

:05:45. > :05:49.do the BBC any favours in trying to pursue, in trying to make stre that

:05:50. > :05:55.it gets the talent that is available. It also gives colmercial

:05:56. > :06:00.rivals are a lot of inside information, published information,

:06:01. > :06:04.to see what it would take to poach talent away. I don't see how that is

:06:05. > :06:10.helpful to the BBC in fulfilling its mission. I think this is a

:06:11. > :06:15.vindictive little measure and I don't see the point of pursting it.

:06:16. > :06:19.But nonetheless, the governlent have said they will do so. We will see

:06:20. > :06:22.how it goes. I think it's good that we have got to a better place with

:06:23. > :06:27.the charter review than we light have. I think from an early stage of

:06:28. > :06:32.the review process, the govdrnment seems to be contemplating shrinking

:06:33. > :06:35.and diminishing the BBC. I know they denied it. But I think it w`s

:06:36. > :06:39.they're in the background. H think if they could have got away with it,

:06:40. > :06:46.they would have done. I think, however, that the huge swell of

:06:47. > :06:48.support there has been from our constituents and in both Hotses of

:06:49. > :06:53.Parliament, has stopped thel from doing so. I think there are still

:06:54. > :06:56.potential pitfalls and problems which could end up being a luch

:06:57. > :07:02.bigger issue than they now look like they are in this charter, and we

:07:03. > :07:04.will obviously keep an high on the way in which it goes, in particular

:07:05. > :07:10.leading opted this so-called mid-term review. We will be watching

:07:11. > :07:14.to make sure the government don t go back to their original aims, in the

:07:15. > :07:19.charter review, trying to do down the BBC. And I think that on behalf

:07:20. > :07:25.of our constituents of love and value the BBC, as a great UK

:07:26. > :07:28.institution, we all hope th`t this charter does what the secretary of

:07:29. > :07:36.State now says she wishes it to do, and we will make sure that ht does.

:07:37. > :07:42.Thank you Madam Deputy Speaker. Firstly I would like to thank the

:07:43. > :07:48.Secretary of State and welcome her to this debate. I thank her for her

:07:49. > :07:50.crtion of the Select Committee's report and recommendations through

:07:51. > :07:53.the finalisation of the charter process and also to thank hdr

:07:54. > :07:57.predecessor, the Right Honotrable member for Maldon again for the

:07:58. > :07:59.consideration he gave to thd committee and its work whild he was

:08:00. > :08:03.Secretary of State in preparing the Royal Charter and also to wdlcome to

:08:04. > :08:07.his place the member for West Bromwich East. I know from our time

:08:08. > :08:11.together on the culture medha and sports committee that he'll bring

:08:12. > :08:14.passion and energy to his role and I look forward to hearing his

:08:15. > :08:18.contributions in these debates in the months and years to comd.

:08:19. > :08:26.Following on from the honourable lady's speech directly before mine,

:08:27. > :08:30.I was reminded of the great Kenneth Clarke programme civilisation, the

:08:31. > :08:35.great Art Historian, who produced in 1969 an epic series of 13 episodes

:08:36. > :08:49.of 50-minutes long, a forward began Chris Huhne June taking all about

:08:50. > :08:53.the nature -- gargantuan talking about nature. The same formtla could

:08:54. > :08:58.be applied to distinctiveness about the BBC. It's incredibly difficult

:08:59. > :09:04.to define but somehow we recognise it when we see it. We want to

:09:05. > :09:08.celebrate its creativity and ingenuity. I'm sure the honourable

:09:09. > :09:15.member would agree with me, putting Ed Balls in sparkling clothhng and

:09:16. > :09:18.making him dance peak time on a Saturday is something no other

:09:19. > :09:23.broadcaster would do. That hs something we celebrate about the

:09:24. > :09:27.uniqueness of the BBC. It's right that, along with assessing the BBC's

:09:28. > :09:31.value for money, the decisions of its executives and how much money

:09:32. > :09:35.they earn, we also continue to apply the threshold of is the BBC

:09:36. > :09:39.continuing to be true and dhstinct enough to deliver something because

:09:40. > :09:42.of the unique way in which ht's funded which no other broadcaster

:09:43. > :09:46.could do across the breadth of its programming. The BBC is one of our

:09:47. > :09:51.great national institutions and loved by everyone in this country.

:09:52. > :09:56.But it's so loved because it's adapted and changed with thd times

:09:57. > :10:00.as well, applied its creativity and ingenuity through the great

:10:01. > :10:03.breakthroughs in television, be it the Internet and the great breadth

:10:04. > :10:07.of services it offers now. Ht's moved with the times and st`yed

:10:08. > :10:13.close to its values and trud to its values. The charter renewal every

:10:14. > :10:18.decade or so, the next one being in 11 years, is again to see, not just

:10:19. > :10:21.what is best about the BBC that we should conserve and preservd, but

:10:22. > :10:24.how do we want it to adapt `nd change into the future as wdll.

:10:25. > :10:28.Clearly at the heart of this process of the charter renewal has been a

:10:29. > :10:33.desire for much greater transparency in the way the BBC operates. That is

:10:34. > :10:38.why I was pleased to see th`t the recommendation that had been made

:10:39. > :10:45.consistently by the Select Committee, the audit of the BBC

:10:46. > :10:52.applying its forensic skills, the BBC is using its resources `nd that

:10:53. > :10:55.is the right approach to take. The unity board recognises something

:10:56. > :11:00.most people had come to the conclusion of themselves th`t the

:11:01. > :11:06.BBC Trust was not fit four purpose, not fulfilling the role correctly.

:11:07. > :11:09.We can do better than that. With the dismissal of George Entwistle, we

:11:10. > :11:13.saw in a moment of crisis, the chairman of the Trust effectively

:11:14. > :11:17.becomes the chairman of the BBC and steps in the way a chairman of the

:11:18. > :11:22.board will do. It demonstrated the Trust was too conflicted to be both

:11:23. > :11:26.an external regulator and also its principal champion and a

:11:27. > :11:36.representative of the licence fee payer's interest as well. The

:11:37. > :11:40.unitary board is the best w`y to go. It was not clear who the Director

:11:41. > :11:47.General reported to. Now it's clear that whilst Editor in Chief, he has

:11:48. > :11:58.independence of operation, dxecutiv teams who answer to him and he's the

:11:59. > :12:03.chairman of the board, which is to be we could. The honourable lady

:12:04. > :12:08.mentioned in her speech before mine, that the initiative around the BBC

:12:09. > :12:12.studio's proposals, it's bedn the big initiative the BBC has got

:12:13. > :12:16.behind and wanted. The Director General was clear and I agrde with

:12:17. > :12:22.his analysis that in making the studios more competitive, more open,

:12:23. > :12:26.will help make the BBC attr`ct and hang on to some of the best creative

:12:27. > :12:31.talents that work not just on screen but in taking ideas through to

:12:32. > :12:35.production and transmission. It s the BBC recognising something that

:12:36. > :12:39.almost all other players in the TV market recognise, the futurd of

:12:40. > :12:42.television for broadcasters is not just the growth and transmission of

:12:43. > :12:46.content, it's owning and crdating the programmes and formats that can

:12:47. > :12:50.be exported around the world as well. The future of revenues and the

:12:51. > :12:56.future of its creative succdss will be tied to the success of the

:12:57. > :13:01.studio's proposals. Alongside this, and the previous Secretary of State

:13:02. > :13:04.was probably pivotal in pushing this forward, and it would chime with the

:13:05. > :13:09.thing he's said in the past, alongside the BBC having thd freedom

:13:10. > :13:15.to compete, independent companies have more freedom to competd to

:13:16. > :13:21.produce programmes at the BBC as well. We now liberalise much more of

:13:22. > :13:24.the BBC's commissioning work, including the commissioning of

:13:25. > :13:30.repeats as well, something what the BBC was not prepared to concede on

:13:31. > :13:35.before. It compliments it. We may look back, not just at the review

:13:36. > :13:38.period but the next charter renewal and say actually this creathve

:13:39. > :13:41.freedom and openness that whll come from the studio's proposals could be

:13:42. > :13:45.one of the most significant proposals and reforms that `re part

:13:46. > :13:49.of the charter renewal procdss. I would like to pick up on ond or two

:13:50. > :13:53.points that have been made by others in the debate as well, parthcularly

:13:54. > :13:56.touching on the recommendathons of the most recent Select Commhttee

:13:57. > :14:00.report. We support the decision to run a proper process for thd

:14:01. > :14:03.appointment of the chairman of the new BBC unitary board, other members

:14:04. > :14:06.have said this is a different position, it's a unique poshtion,

:14:07. > :14:11.there should have been a proper process to determine who thd best

:14:12. > :14:16.person was, the committee dhd not feel that Rhona should be excluded

:14:17. > :14:22.from that process, she chosd to exclude herself but there should

:14:23. > :14:25.have been a formal process. There'll be independent directors and it s

:14:26. > :14:30.vital we have total confidence in the way in which they were

:14:31. > :14:34.appointed. Also, to concur with the views that other members have

:14:35. > :14:38.expressed. There may be differences of opinion, but on the question of

:14:39. > :14:41.BBC salaries as well, they `lready conceded that executives got paid

:14:42. > :14:46.more than the Prime Minister and should declare what they got paid.

:14:47. > :14:50.They accepted the principle of higher paid performers, on-screen

:14:51. > :14:56.talent having their salaries declared. Licence fee payers don't

:14:57. > :15:00.understand why on-screen talent is different to off screen taldnt, that

:15:01. > :15:04.one should have to declare their salaries and the others not. It was

:15:05. > :15:08.the right thing to do and I'm pleased to see that in the final

:15:09. > :15:12.part of the charter. I thank manufacture for givhng way.

:15:13. > :15:18.He talks about the need for transparency. What wiz his view of

:15:19. > :15:26.the James Purnell interview, at a time when the BBC are bringhng out

:15:27. > :15:29.quotas, yet Mr Purnell got that job with nothing whatsoever, anxone

:15:30. > :15:33.would think the job was madd for him? I thank my right honourable

:15:34. > :15:35.friend. The post wasn't litdrally made for him and it wasn't

:15:36. > :15:39.advertised widely for other people to apply. The Right Honourable

:15:40. > :15:45.gentleman for Maldon raised this in his speech. Regardless of pdople's

:15:46. > :15:50.views of the capabilities of James Purnell or concerns may havd about

:15:51. > :15:53.his -- or concerns people m`y have about his political processds in the

:15:54. > :15:57.past. Why wasn't there compdtition within the BBC or indeed from people

:15:58. > :16:02.outside the BBC who may havd had the skills to apply for the jobs. I

:16:03. > :16:08.think if we are going to be critical about the way Rhona Fairhead was

:16:09. > :16:11.appointed to the BBC, and that was a fair and transparent process, that

:16:12. > :16:15.should apply to executives on the board as well and certainly would

:16:16. > :16:19.apply in the case of James Purnell, I agree with my right honourable

:16:20. > :16:24.friend. Would he also agree with me that part of this transparency about

:16:25. > :16:29.those who're on top salaries should also include those on contr`cts

:16:30. > :16:34.which would enable them to `void -- which enables them to avoid paying

:16:35. > :16:38.tax either by having money paid directly to them and then they only

:16:39. > :16:43.pay corporation tax on it or other tax avoidance schemes which the BBC

:16:44. > :16:46.now uses for hundreds of its employees? I tons point the

:16:47. > :16:50.honourable gentleman's making and certainly the people need to pay the

:16:51. > :16:55.taxes due for the income th`t they receive. Wherever that comes from,

:16:56. > :16:59.it applies to BBC executives as much as anyone else. I would mark what

:17:00. > :17:04.the Secretary of State said, this is something we have to keep under

:17:05. > :17:07.close review. If BBC talent are trying to use a loophole by

:17:08. > :17:11.channelling more of their income through independent producthon

:17:12. > :17:17.companies so they don't havd to declare it and that our concern is

:17:18. > :17:21.through the work of the offhce there's been acceleration and trying

:17:22. > :17:24.to get around existing rules, people should declare what they earn if

:17:25. > :17:30.it's more than ?150,000. We should look at that again if that `buse

:17:31. > :17:34.occurs. I would like to touch on the honourable gentleman, honourable

:17:35. > :17:38.member on the Select Committee, the member for East Dunbartonshhre,

:17:39. > :17:42.about the Scottish six, I w`s acting chair of the committee, I w`nted to

:17:43. > :17:47.give my view on this and significance of the Scottish six. I

:17:48. > :17:51.think we felt or certainly H felt, I hope he agrees, but I felt that what

:17:52. > :17:55.we were calling for was to give the editorial independence to the BBC in

:17:56. > :17:59.Scotland over the Six O'Clock News, that it could therefore reflect the

:18:00. > :18:02.fact that maybe certain news items that were not relevant to the

:18:03. > :18:05.Scottish audience in the sale way they were to the UK audiencd because

:18:06. > :18:11.of matters devolution but nevertheless it would be up to the

:18:12. > :18:14.editorial independence in the BBC, they would have the freedom to

:18:15. > :18:18.change the running order but it would still be a national ndws

:18:19. > :18:21.programme but broadcast and edited in Scotland with the Scottish

:18:22. > :18:25.perspective on the national news. It would still be a national ndws

:18:26. > :18:31.programme but edited and produced in Scotland and I think we also looked

:18:32. > :18:37.at the fact that in radio, the BBC's comfortable to make that decision.

:18:38. > :18:43.This is an editorial decision for the BBC to make. One of the things

:18:44. > :18:46.we need to give the BBC a shove and say you have been looking at this

:18:47. > :18:50.for a time, you have tried to change the format and make a decishon, this

:18:51. > :18:56.is our view but this remains something for you to do and I agree

:18:57. > :18:59.with the Secretary of State, I think I am right in interpreting what she

:19:00. > :19:03.said, as others discussed, that this is not a matter for the Govdrnment

:19:04. > :19:06.to mandate what to do, it's an editorial decision for the BBC to

:19:07. > :19:11.make. Finally I would like to touch on something mentioned earlher which

:19:12. > :19:18.was the question of the BBC iPlayer and removing the loophole whereby

:19:19. > :19:31.people could watch the programmes without a TV licence. This hs

:19:32. > :19:34.important. There is a more practical way to police this, licence fee

:19:35. > :19:37.payers should have a pin code to prove that they have paid the

:19:38. > :19:40.licence fee and they are a payer. This is common with other dhgital

:19:41. > :19:43.services that people are usdd to using all of the time and would be

:19:44. > :19:49.the similar interest and most logical way. It's certainly a lot

:19:50. > :19:55.easier than having digital enforcement cameras, modern versions

:19:56. > :20:00.of the TV detective van going round trying to find out whether people

:20:01. > :20:04.have licences or not. Peopld don't like the idea of licence fed payers

:20:05. > :20:08.becoming a subscriber service. This is simply acknowledging that new

:20:09. > :20:13.technology allows people thd access BBC services in different w`ys, they

:20:14. > :20:17.are still free to access news, we are just using new technology to

:20:18. > :20:21.make programmes realedly av`ilable. The idea of complimentary

:20:22. > :20:25.subscription services giving people access to streaming of other

:20:26. > :20:29.programmes that may not be `vailable at broadcast is a sensible step

:20:30. > :20:34.forward, allowing the BBC to grow revenues from the back catalogue and

:20:35. > :20:40.creating innovating programles. That is not a shift away from thd licence

:20:41. > :20:46.funded BBC, it's simply recognising new technology and platforms and

:20:47. > :20:50.tools were not here in the past This charter renewal process I would

:20:51. > :20:56.like to see the BBC take more steps forward in that direction.

:20:57. > :21:00.The renewal of the BBC charter is clearly taking place at a sdminal

:21:01. > :21:06.moment for the BBC and for the broadcasting industry in general.

:21:07. > :21:12.The dominant position of our public service broadcasters is cle`rly a

:21:13. > :21:18.challenge by net flix and Alazon prime and other broader cable and

:21:19. > :21:23.satellite TV stations. It's the case, and I said this in thd debate

:21:24. > :21:30.on diversity in the BBC, th`t it's worrying that we have seen ` trend

:21:31. > :21:38.amongst ethnic minorities in this country to return to their own

:21:39. > :21:44.certainly first generational languages, broadcasters turn away

:21:45. > :21:48.from the BBC. Clearly the BBC is in a unique position, both as `

:21:49. > :21:53.national broadcaster, but also as one of our most cherished

:21:54. > :21:59.institutions. To be right at the heart of our social fabric `nd of

:22:00. > :22:04.our shared national convers`tion. And a a time in our country where we

:22:05. > :22:09.are seeing a rise, very sadly, in hate crime, and in which I think on

:22:10. > :22:15.all sides of the House, across all political parties, there is a deep

:22:16. > :22:19.concern about a divided Britain It's really important that the BBC

:22:20. > :22:23.understands that responsibility and it's a responsibility that cuts to

:22:24. > :22:27.the heart of distinctiveness to be at the centre of that shared

:22:28. > :22:30.conversation and that manner in which we can both see reflections of

:22:31. > :22:42.ourselves. Even though I am on one sidd of the

:22:43. > :22:45.Brexit debate, I want to sed reflections of people in thhs

:22:46. > :22:51.country with an older age profile, people in this country who `re

:22:52. > :22:55.perhaps from working-class backgrounds, the sort of people who

:22:56. > :23:02.might live in some of our sdaside towns, I want to see them rdflected

:23:03. > :23:06.in the BBC, as much as I want to see so many of my constituents with over

:23:07. > :23:11.200 languages spoken in my constituency. Thank you for giving

:23:12. > :23:17.way. I entirely endorse what he has just said. Would he agree whth me

:23:18. > :23:22.that the BBC did a very good job during the referendum campahgn in

:23:23. > :23:26.holding a fair balance of both sides of the argument? Irrespective of the

:23:27. > :23:29.fact he is on one side and H on the other, does he share my slight

:23:30. > :23:32.concern that they have not been holding the balance quite so well

:23:33. > :23:41.since the referendum actually came and went? I don't think I'm going to

:23:42. > :23:47.be tempted into the BBC's coverage during the debate. But I do say

:23:48. > :23:52.genuinely that with the sal`ries that senior executives are being

:23:53. > :23:59.paid, and much adds, gold tonight, the salaries that talent is being

:24:00. > :24:03.paid, the real nature in whhch the BBC really understands, and I say

:24:04. > :24:09.this representing in north London constituency, understands bdyond

:24:10. > :24:13.North London, which -- were so many of the executives seem to lhve, and

:24:14. > :24:19.beyond West London, the trud fabric of this country and portrays it and

:24:20. > :24:24.reaches into places that ard often quite difficult and quite at odds,

:24:25. > :24:31.is genuinely important. And I think that is not just in their ndws

:24:32. > :24:34.coverage. It has to be in these sorts of documentaries that are

:24:35. > :24:40.commissioned, the sort of drama that is commissioned. And these sorts of

:24:41. > :24:45.faces that come to be the f`ces that so many British people of dhfferent

:24:46. > :24:54.backgrounds and allowing to their front living rooms during the course

:24:55. > :24:58.of any day. Back in April wd debated diversity in the BBC on the floor of

:24:59. > :25:02.this House for the first tile. And I welcome the new public purpose

:25:03. > :25:10.included in the draft royal charter published last month, which

:25:11. > :25:14.unambiguously commits the BBC to reflect, represent and servd the

:25:15. > :25:18.diverse communities of all of the United Kingdom 's nations and

:25:19. > :25:25.regions. And I'm quite sure that right across this house -- House, we

:25:26. > :25:28.celebrate that move. I should congratulate the right Honotrable

:25:29. > :25:35.member for Didcot and Wantage for his work on diversity during his

:25:36. > :25:43.time as Minister for culturd and digital economy. Overly enjoyed

:25:44. > :25:48.coming in the previous government, being minister for culture. It was

:25:49. > :26:03.my believe that there would never be a minister as good as I was.

:26:04. > :26:05.And it turns out that there was The draft BBC framework agreement

:26:06. > :26:13.further states that the BBC must make arrangements for promoting

:26:14. > :26:17.equality of opportunity, irrespective of gender, dis`bility,

:26:18. > :26:20.race or sexual orientation. Crucially the draft agreement also

:26:21. > :26:28.sets out the BBC must publish an annual report on the effecthveness

:26:29. > :26:33.of its policies for promoting equality of opportunity. Thhs is a

:26:34. > :26:39.really important point. In the 6 years since the BBC publishdd its

:26:40. > :26:46.first diversity strategy, the BBC has not published any evalu`tion of

:26:47. > :26:51.the effectiveness of its efforts. And if we are to see real progress,

:26:52. > :26:57.we must first know what works and indeed what does not work. Lembers

:26:58. > :27:05.who spoke in the debate back in April will be well aware th`t since

:27:06. > :27:11.1999, we've had 30 BBC inithatives and strategies aimed at improving

:27:12. > :27:16.the representation of black and Asian and ethnic minority

:27:17. > :27:23.communities. Yet between 2001 and 2015, a proportion of the BBC

:27:24. > :27:33.workforce from a BME background has increased by 0.9% to 13.1%, and only

:27:34. > :27:45.7.1% of the BBC senior leaddrship in TV are BME. It worries me that the

:27:46. > :27:50.BBC finds itself as one of those organisations where we routhnely

:27:51. > :27:54.hear language like, this person or that person is going to be the next

:27:55. > :28:02.Director-General. This person or that person is going to one day be

:28:03. > :28:08.head of drama. This person's at sky and we expect them to come `cross in

:28:09. > :28:13.a few years. And when you look at the profile of those people, as I

:28:14. > :28:18.say, I'm likely to bump into them if I happen to be on Muswell Hhll

:28:19. > :28:24.Broadway on Saturday afternoon. Not good enough. We shouldn't h`ve that

:28:25. > :28:30.expectation. We should be rdaching far beyond that. It's just ` bit too

:28:31. > :28:38.cosy. And we don't want that kind of cosy friends relationship, despite

:28:39. > :28:42.the nice things I said about James Pernell, who is a friend of mine. We

:28:43. > :28:47.don't want that kind of cosx relationship settling into our

:28:48. > :28:53.national broadcaster. -- Jales Pernell. With the honourabld

:28:54. > :28:59.gentleman of the the problels in encouraging more people to the BBC

:29:00. > :29:04.is very often that work expdrience positions are advertised with no

:29:05. > :29:08.pay, or not advertise that `ll. You have to be pretty well off to work

:29:09. > :29:13.for a couple of months at the BBC without earning a penny piece. It is

:29:14. > :29:21.clear enough going to be possible, is it, for a young person, or even a

:29:22. > :29:28.slightly older person who is not situated in London, who has not got

:29:29. > :29:32.parents who can put them up and see them through, to take off those

:29:33. > :29:34.opportunities. It's going to exclude swathes of people. And for that

:29:35. > :29:40.reason the standard has to be higher. In the previous deb`te there

:29:41. > :29:45.was much reflection on the other broadcasters. Some people s`id to

:29:46. > :29:48.me, why are you picking on the BBC? Let me be clear, I will alw`ys

:29:49. > :29:59.consider myself a tremendous friend of the BBC. And in terms of my own

:30:00. > :30:03.television and radio listenhng habits, I find myself const`ntly

:30:04. > :30:10.switching on the BBC, and I am really, really pleased with so much

:30:11. > :30:13.of its output. But it is to say because it is the national

:30:14. > :30:22.broadcaster, it has a higher standard. It just has a higher

:30:23. > :30:28.standard. I might just pay tribute to my good friend who is le`ving the

:30:29. > :30:31.UK to go to the United Statds, Baroness King, in the other place,

:30:32. > :30:38.who has done a great job as head of diversity at Channel 4. Has really

:30:39. > :30:45.led the way. And if Channel 4 could be quite as bold as they ard being

:30:46. > :30:50.on targets, can have a 360 `pproach, can set really clear guidelhnes to

:30:51. > :30:53.their independent producers, can be leading the way consistentlx, and

:30:54. > :30:56.not just behind the debate but leading the debate, bringing people

:30:57. > :31:02.like Idris Elba into this place to lead the public conversation, then

:31:03. > :31:07.my challenge to the BBC is we expect you to operate the same territory

:31:08. > :31:11.and to go further. And it shouldn't be really about this House leading

:31:12. > :31:17.the BBC in that direction. Ht should be the BBC to some extent ldading

:31:18. > :31:27.Kos. Leading us into that ftture way. So we do expect a highdr

:31:28. > :31:34.standard. Diversity should be embedded into the BBC. I will give

:31:35. > :31:39.way. I thank the honourable gentleman forgiving way. It was a

:31:40. > :31:46.point that I was going to phck-up on a minute or so ago, but somdone else

:31:47. > :31:50.intervened. It seems to me that in any large organisation, including

:31:51. > :31:56.this place, people are alwaxs identified by their peers and said,

:31:57. > :32:02.that fellow, that lady is going to go to the top. It seems a bht rich,

:32:03. > :32:06.actually, to say the BBC shouldn't do that, when actually all

:32:07. > :32:13.organisations have that sort of culture. I don't think they mean to

:32:14. > :32:18.have it. Well, the honourable gentleman is, of course, right. But

:32:19. > :32:24.it is to say that when we rdly on those statements and they come to

:32:25. > :32:28.pass, more often than not, we miss out on seeing and looking at people

:32:29. > :32:34.who don't fit the mould most often, and I say this with great rdspect,

:32:35. > :32:38.of the white, upper middle-class men who have occupied that role in the

:32:39. > :32:47.past. It might have been sahd about the leadership of his party in the

:32:48. > :32:51.mid-19 70s. So and so is gohng to do that role. Margaret Thatcher did not

:32:52. > :32:55.fit the bill. But of course you get occasionally people breaking

:32:56. > :32:58.through. But I am saying th`t really our national broadcaster has got to

:32:59. > :33:07.do a lot more. And when you look at the top leadership team, and this is

:33:08. > :33:15.now over consecutive years `nd decades, it really has been quite

:33:16. > :33:20.slow in its progress in this regard. But the crucial point here hs that

:33:21. > :33:29.we do need to see that progress in terms of the BBC's latest dhversity

:33:30. > :33:32.strategy can --,, which runs to 2020. Off-screen employment is just

:33:33. > :33:35.as important as on-screen employment, as my honourabld friend

:33:36. > :33:42.suggested in her excellent contribution. And so a placd to have

:33:43. > :33:46.a workforce at least as divdrse as any other industry is welcoled. And

:33:47. > :33:51.the make-up of senior managdment leadership positions is argtably

:33:52. > :33:57.more important than who is being hired as apprenticeships,

:33:58. > :34:04.apprentices or runners. So the targets of 50% for women, 14% for

:34:05. > :34:08.ethnic minorities, 8% for pdople with disability, 15% for LG BT

:34:09. > :34:14.individuals in leadership is an ambitious goal that represent a huge

:34:15. > :34:17.step forward. It is also important that diversity requirements are

:34:18. > :34:20.embedded into contracts with suppliers and independent production

:34:21. > :34:26.companies, commissioned to produce content. Yesterday, the BBC unveiled

:34:27. > :34:33.new commissioning guidelines that make it compulsory for independent

:34:34. > :34:37.production companies to consider diversity and state that thdre will

:34:38. > :34:48.be a conversation about divdrsity plans ahead of all commissioning

:34:49. > :34:52.decisions. One has got to ask, what does consider and a convers`tion

:34:53. > :34:59.actually mean in practice? The new guidelines use the word consider 12

:35:00. > :35:05.times but don't set out any specific minimum requirements. Except having

:35:06. > :35:18.a diversity and inclusion policy in place. In fact, the guidelines only

:35:19. > :35:22.used the word "Must" once. The BBC is committed to opening of hts

:35:23. > :35:25.budgets to independent prodtction companies by removing all existing

:35:26. > :35:31.in-house guarantees except for news and news related current affairs by

:35:32. > :35:36.the end of the current charter period. 100% of drama, comedy,

:35:37. > :35:44.entertainment except two of the opera grabs. In 2019, competition

:35:45. > :35:49.will also be introduced in Nonu 's current affairs. In this new era of

:35:50. > :35:53.the Indies, which is clearlx a period in which a discount to become

:35:54. > :36:00.very important, if the BBC hs serious about the ambitious targets,

:36:01. > :36:05.they will need to be clear `bout what is expected of independent

:36:06. > :36:08.production companies and thdir guidelines. Only requiring

:36:09. > :36:16.consideration or a conversation on diversity, I've got to say, appears

:36:17. > :36:20.weak. In contrast, Channel 4's commissioning diversity guidelines

:36:21. > :36:24.state that at least one character must be from an ethnic minority

:36:25. > :36:31.background, has a disabilitx, or is LG BT. A percentage of the

:36:32. > :36:34.production team the same. And at least one of the senior dirdctors,

:36:35. > :36:42.editors or producers is frol an ethnic minority. It is just much

:36:43. > :36:48.older -- boulder. I was watching Channel 4's National treasure last

:36:49. > :36:53.week. Wonderful, wonderful four part drama touching on that terrhble

:36:54. > :37:02.issue of sexual abuse in our society. And there was Julid

:37:03. > :37:06.Walters, wonderful. And of course her family, her grandchildrdn, it

:37:07. > :37:12.struck me as I was sitting with my wife, having put our own mixed race

:37:13. > :37:16.children to bed, two lead white characters, well-known actors, but

:37:17. > :37:21.their grandchildren were mixed race. I thought, great! They've done it.

:37:22. > :37:24.They've reflected, very gently, it wasn't central to the storyline but

:37:25. > :37:30.there it was, a reflection of my family and my children that is very

:37:31. > :37:36.rarely seen on television. That is how you do it. And that is why I am

:37:37. > :37:41.surprised that consider, thhnk about, a conversation is always had.

:37:42. > :37:47.There is been a big debate raging for some time led by Sir Lenny Henry

:37:48. > :37:51.and tribute must be paid to him There's ban 400 increase in the

:37:52. > :38:00.number of programmes being produced in the English regions sincd 20 3

:38:01. > :38:04.and outside the M25. That mtst be a good thing and we celebrate that

:38:05. > :38:08.television is being made in parts of our country where it wasn't made

:38:09. > :38:12.previously. But it comes back to the business of also embedding `nd

:38:13. > :38:17.hard-wiring diversity as a consequence of that decision. We

:38:18. > :38:23.don't want to lose out becatse of that attempt to make TV in Wales and

:38:24. > :38:30.Scotland and further and bexond I recently met with the BBC dhrector

:38:31. > :38:33.of content Charlotte Moore `nd I got a real sense of her commitmdnt to

:38:34. > :38:36.the issue but it was one th`t I really wanted to raise. Can I

:38:37. > :38:42.finally raise a point that others have pointed to, that is gohng to be

:38:43. > :38:48.the very, very important position now of Ofcom in relation to the BBC.

:38:49. > :38:53.Ofcom's Chief Executive, Sh`ron White, has recently warned that the

:38:54. > :38:58.BBC's falling short on thesd stories that reflect all of the nathons and

:38:59. > :39:01.its communities. Last year Ofcom's review of public service

:39:02. > :39:05.broadcasting found that over half of black Asian and minority ethnic

:39:06. > :39:08.viewers felt they were underrepresented in public service

:39:09. > :39:13.broadcasting, so Ofcom are `ware of the issues and it's up to the new

:39:14. > :39:18.regulator to hold the BBC to account if it falls short on its promises. I

:39:19. > :39:22.hope that in his remarks later, the minister will be able to update the

:39:23. > :39:26.House on how the Government plans to ensure that the provisions of the

:39:27. > :39:30.charter and agreement are acted on. It seems clear to me that the BBC

:39:31. > :39:33.must be required to publish full data on all elements of this

:39:34. > :39:38.diversity and equal opportunities policy and that Ofcom must `nalyse

:39:39. > :39:43.and evaluate the data to cole to a judgment on progress each ydar.

:39:44. > :39:48.Another important point is whether the BBC's targets, which ard after

:39:49. > :39:52.all only an aspiration, shotld be combined with a minimum standard or

:39:53. > :39:56.benchmark. So I hope the minister can today confirm that the

:39:57. > :40:01.Government will call on Ofcom to set the minimum standards for BBC

:40:02. > :40:06.diversity both in terms of on screen portrayal and off screen employment.

:40:07. > :40:10.With that, of course, I think we've got real progress then to the

:40:11. > :40:14.centrality of this issue in the charter and I congratulate the

:40:15. > :40:20.Government for achieving th`t. This is an important moment for our

:40:21. > :40:24.country, emphasised so much by the social division that I think exists

:40:25. > :40:30.in Britain at this point in our history. We don't want to sde ethnic

:40:31. > :40:35.minorities turn into first language stations abroad, we do need that

:40:36. > :40:39.national conversation as colplex, rich and difficult as it soletimes

:40:40. > :40:42.is, frankly. There are a lot of people paid quite a lot of loney to

:40:43. > :40:47.get this right. This is a pdriod where we need to get it right so

:40:48. > :40:51.that I'm not here in five ydars time having the same debate about

:40:52. > :41:00.ringfencing targets and the BBC taking diversity seriously.

:41:01. > :41:03.I'm most grateful, Madam Deputy Speaker, for the chance to speak in

:41:04. > :41:08.this important debate and I may say how much I welcome the publhcation

:41:09. > :41:12.of the draft charge. It's worth recalling that at various points

:41:13. > :41:16.during the run-up to the ch`rter, there was debate about whether we'd

:41:17. > :41:19.have to extend the charter hn order to give us time to cover all the

:41:20. > :41:23.bases, as it Queen's Lancashire Regiment. It's a great test`ment to

:41:24. > :41:30.the Secretary of State who H see in his place on the back benchds, that

:41:31. > :41:39.from an election in May 2014 to today, October 2016, we havd a draft

:41:40. > :41:42.charter in front of us. It's a great testament to him that he dodsn't

:41:43. > :41:46.have two horns on his head `nd he's not carrying a pitchfork and he s

:41:47. > :41:51.not here to Consign for the BBC to the depth of hell and nor w`s he

:41:52. > :41:55.intending to do that when hd was the Secretary of State. I have to say, I

:41:56. > :41:59.have absolutely no time at `ll with those who think that the prdvious

:42:00. > :42:01.Secretary of State, my right honourable friend the member for

:42:02. > :42:06.Maldon, came into office with an agenda to bury the BBC and that

:42:07. > :42:12.somehow he was seen off by the might of 38 degrees and the effectiveness

:42:13. > :42:17.of the Labour frontbench. Nothing could be further from the truth In

:42:18. > :42:24.fact, my right honourable friend is a great supporter of the BBC and he

:42:25. > :42:28.merely made some fairly deeply obvious points which is that we were

:42:29. > :42:33.going for a Charter Review `nd the whole point was to examine what the

:42:34. > :42:38.BBC does on whether it could be helped to do things better. I used

:42:39. > :42:42.to joke that we could do thd BBC Charter Review within 24 hotrs, but

:42:43. > :42:46.we took slightly longer. As honourable members now know, the

:42:47. > :42:50.Charter Review does not shake the BBC to its core foundations but

:42:51. > :42:54.makes some very welcome and long overdue changes. One of the biggest

:42:55. > :42:58.issues we did have to look `t was whether or not the licence fee was

:42:59. > :43:03.sustainable, a perfectly rational thing to look at and it bec`me

:43:04. > :43:07.pretty leer that the licencd fee, like democracy, was the least worse

:43:08. > :43:11.of the options in front of ts. Nevertheless, my right honotrable

:43:12. > :43:15.friend has introduced the opportunity for the BBC to trial

:43:16. > :43:20.subscription services and hd's quite right to have done that bec`use the

:43:21. > :43:23.BBC, as has been mentioned `lready, will face extraordinary competition,

:43:24. > :43:29.not from its terrestrial broadcast rivals, but from the likes of net

:43:30. > :43:32.flix, Amazon, Facebook, Apple and Google and it's right that hn a

:43:33. > :43:41.digital age it should start tolike at how best to raise its income and

:43:42. > :43:44.to distribute its content. Netflix, Amazon, Facebook, Apple and Google

:43:45. > :43:46.and it's right that in a digital age it should start tolike at how best

:43:47. > :43:49.to raise its income and to distribute its content. Othdr issues

:43:50. > :43:51.I want to mention. Not many honourable members have touched on

:43:52. > :43:55.radio. We forget too easily when we talk about the Poldarks or the Ed

:43:56. > :44:02.Balls on Strictly that actu`lly a major part of the BBC's output is on

:44:03. > :44:06.radio and particularly for ts in this house, BBC local radio is

:44:07. > :44:11.extremely important. All those who huff and puff and say I wouldn't pay

:44:12. > :44:15.my licence fee for this kind of nonsense are only too happy to wake

:44:16. > :44:25.up to the Today programme in the morning and two to bed with Radio

:44:26. > :44:30.Two news. On the subject of James Purnell I

:44:31. > :44:37.don't have a problem with hhm being an old lefty. What I have a problem

:44:38. > :44:41.with is that he doesn't belheves in digital radio, Madam Deputy Speaker.

:44:42. > :44:45.I'm a passionate supporter of digital radio. James thinks that

:44:46. > :44:49.everything is going to go on to the Internet. My right-wing fridnds

:44:50. > :44:54.should probably want to see James Purnell appointed Director General

:44:55. > :44:57.of the BBC because he'd probably put the entire BBC Online within 24

:44:58. > :45:01.hours of being appointed. I would urge James if watching this debate

:45:02. > :45:05.online to back digital radio and to support it because I think digital

:45:06. > :45:09.radio will be the medium by which we listen to radio. It's at a tipping

:45:10. > :45:14.point and we need the BBC as a senior partner in it. May I also

:45:15. > :45:17.say, as port of the whole conspiracy theory debate, I also welcole my

:45:18. > :45:25.right honourable friend's ddcision to input a mid term review hnto the

:45:26. > :45:28.licence fee because into thd charter rather, because as I've alrdady

:45:29. > :45:32.said, the quick technology changes that are happening at the moment, a

:45:33. > :45:36.mid term review will be extremely welcome to see again whether a

:45:37. > :45:42.subsequent Government can m`ke changes that will help the BBC.

:45:43. > :45:46.I want to touch on four key aspects of the whole charter debate. First

:45:47. > :45:50.of all the issue of Ofcom regulation, part of my quip about

:45:51. > :45:55.how we could do the BBC Charter Review in 24 hours. It seems to me

:45:56. > :45:58.the biggest fundamental change that everyone was agreed the BBC Trust

:45:59. > :46:01.didn't work and should be rdplaced by Ofcom regulation. May I hn

:46:02. > :46:04.particular praise the minister and the Secretary of State in hdr

:46:05. > :46:09.absence and indeed the Primd Minister who I think were qtite

:46:10. > :46:16.right when they came into office to say that the chairman of thd new BBC

:46:17. > :46:20.board should be appointed bx an open process and again, to echo the words

:46:21. > :46:24.that were said by the honourable member for Wallasey, that is not a

:46:25. > :46:28.criticism of Rhona Fairhead but I think it was wrong that there was

:46:29. > :46:33.not an open process to appohnt the chairman of a very entirely new body

:46:34. > :46:38.and aisle mazed there'll now be such an open process. It's also obvious

:46:39. > :46:43.that the BBC board is compldtely independent. It always was

:46:44. > :46:48.independent, even under my right honourable friend's proposals before

:46:49. > :46:51.the change of Government but it s clearly even more independent for

:46:52. > :46:56.the benefit of the conspiracy theorists who think we want to take

:46:57. > :46:59.over the BBC. In terms of how Ofcom does regulate the BBC, I wotld urge

:47:00. > :47:05.the Government to be as flexible as possible in the detail about how

:47:06. > :47:10.Ofcom goes about that task. Sharon White as the Chief Executivd of

:47:11. > :47:16.Ofcom, will do a superb job, I have no doubt. I would watch out for a

:47:17. > :47:24.trojan horse, those who belheve in press freedom, if Ofcom is going to

:47:25. > :47:27.regulate the BBC, we'll havd to look carefully at how it handles the

:47:28. > :47:31.print content. I don't want the see regular lace come in via thd back

:47:32. > :47:36.door through Ofcom regulating what the BBC does online, I want to see

:47:37. > :47:41.it regulate the BBC's broadcast content television and radio. A

:47:42. > :47:45.great deal of this debate to my intense pleasure has focussdd on the

:47:46. > :47:47.issue of diversity and I th`nk the honourable member for Tottenham

:47:48. > :47:50.about his kind words of what I've done and I return the favour as I

:47:51. > :47:53.would for my right honourable friend from Maidstone if she were hn the

:47:54. > :47:56.chamber about the work they've done on diversity and so many others As

:47:57. > :48:01.my right honourable friend, many member for Maldon will confhrm, not

:48:02. > :48:07.a meeting went by on the BBC without me banging on about diversity and I

:48:08. > :48:14.am very pleased indeed to sde that it is one of the six purposds that

:48:15. > :48:21.has a very prominent point. I want to praise all the other campaigners,

:48:22. > :48:25.in particular Simon auldburx for broadcast equality on the work that

:48:26. > :48:31.they have done. We have madd progress. I was talking to the