21/10/2016

:00:10. > :00:17.In order. Before we begin proceedings, may I place on the

:00:18. > :00:21.record that if you minutes `go we observed a one-minute silence in

:00:22. > :00:30.remembrance of those who lost their lives in the Aberfan disastdr 5

:00:31. > :00:38.years ago. I beg to move th`t the House to sit in private. Thd

:00:39. > :00:48.question is that the House set in private. As many supported say aye.

:00:49. > :00:56.I think the noes have it. Ldt's see if we can make a little progress.

:00:57. > :01:09.Sexual offences, pardons et Bill, second reading. Thank you vdry much

:01:10. > :01:15.indeed Mr Speaker, Sir, it hs a great pleasure to move this motion

:01:16. > :01:19.and to work so many members of the House to their places. Mr Ddputy

:01:20. > :01:32.Speaker, when I was born in the 1960s, two men who... I don't say

:01:33. > :01:37.which end of the 1960s. Two men who were in love could be sent to prison

:01:38. > :01:43.for what they chose to do in the privacy of their own homes. It is

:01:44. > :01:45.hard now to fathom the mindset of those who defended such gross

:01:46. > :01:54.intrusion into the lives and rights of others. Yet, when one re`ds the

:01:55. > :01:58.speeches in this place at the time of the 1967 decriminalisation Act,

:01:59. > :02:02.many members here presumed to tell fellow citizens who did good and who

:02:03. > :02:09.they could not love, often coaching the speeches in the most prtrient

:02:10. > :02:13.and sometimes lascivious terms. So, it went on. Even after

:02:14. > :02:19.decriminalisation, numerous homophobic laws remained on the

:02:20. > :02:22.statute book, laws which only existed to enshrine inequalhty,

:02:23. > :02:29.ensuring that gay men could never enjoy the full fruits of eqtal

:02:30. > :02:32.citizenship. When I was a student at Glasgow University, the student

:02:33. > :02:36.union banned the university gay society from holding its medtings

:02:37. > :02:40.and dances on its premises `nd the gay students could do absolttely

:02:41. > :02:46.nothing about that because there was no equality protection under the

:02:47. > :02:49.law. When I left university and applied for a job in the civil

:02:50. > :02:54.service and the diplomatic service, I had to sign an affidavit

:02:55. > :03:01.confirming that I was not g`y. I wouldn't do that and therefore I

:03:02. > :03:06.could not qualify for the post. In the 1980s, the tabloids scrdamed

:03:07. > :03:11.abuse about gay men and AIDS. It was routine to conflict homosextality

:03:12. > :03:18.with paedophilia. Small wonder then that it was hard to come out as gay.

:03:19. > :03:22.I found it tough. I came from a modest Presbyterians background I

:03:23. > :03:28.went to church every Sunday, and went to Sunday school, I went to the

:03:29. > :03:36.Crusaders. I prayed not to be gay. At school, gay was the worst time

:03:37. > :03:40.possible. There were gay waxs of throwing a ball. Then there were

:03:41. > :03:45.strict ways of throwing a b`ll. He had to be very sure which w`s which

:03:46. > :03:53.and my honourable friend from Glasgow South lives in a cldar

:03:54. > :03:57.recognition. Now, we had few if any role models. Larry Grayson `nd John

:03:58. > :04:04.Inman were staples of the tdlevision on a Saturday night. They wdre TV

:04:05. > :04:11.stars and fitted the gay TV stereotype. Comic characters, single

:04:12. > :04:16.and in denial about who thex were. The future, as a young gay boy,

:04:17. > :04:20.didn't look promising. Who would want to be gay in a country where

:04:21. > :04:26.you had to hide where you work, like if you want to do certain jobs? In

:04:27. > :04:31.fact, lie if you wanted to keep your job. It was legal to sack someone

:04:32. > :04:36.simply because he discovered that they were gay. You could refuse to

:04:37. > :04:40.rent a house to a gay person, you could arrest a gay couple if they

:04:41. > :04:46.shared a hotel room because the law did not recognise hotel rools as

:04:47. > :04:51.private spaces. Perhaps, and here we come to the crux of the deb`te, most

:04:52. > :04:55.horrifyingly of all, you cotld arrest a 21-year-old man for

:04:56. > :05:00.sleeping with his 20-year-old boyfriend and the 21-year-old could

:05:01. > :05:07.be tried, convicted and sentenced for under age sex. As a young

:05:08. > :05:11.journalist, I made a field ,- a film about how the law discrimin`ted

:05:12. > :05:15.against gay men. It was I who took Edwina Currie to Amsterdam `t a time

:05:16. > :05:22.when she wasn't interested hn the subject and I wanted to confront

:05:23. > :05:28.with the full horrors of gax law reform and inequality. She came back

:05:29. > :05:35.a changed character. It was perhaps a couple of the clubs I took her to.

:05:36. > :05:38.She came back determined to reform the law because she had seen the way

:05:39. > :05:44.that gay law reform could work in practice. In that film, I

:05:45. > :05:49.interviewed military personnel with exemplary records who had bden

:05:50. > :05:55.followed home by the military police determined to investigate a tip off

:05:56. > :06:00.that the personnel concerned, the soldier, the enforcement, the naval

:06:01. > :06:04.officer, was the thing priv`tely with a same-sex partner. Interviewed

:06:05. > :06:09.they could be disciplined if they lied. Of course, they could be

:06:10. > :06:15.sacked and were sacked, if they told the truth. Damp whatever choice they

:06:16. > :06:21.made. It wasn't until the 1890s that the European Court, the grotp

:06:22. > :06:26.setting itself, overturned this ban in the teeth of military opposition.

:06:27. > :06:30.Military men hit the airwavds to predict the collapse of the British

:06:31. > :06:44.Navy where such behaviour h`d previously never been known. Nelson,

:06:45. > :06:51.it seemed, had never been khssed. Across the pond, Colin Powell was

:06:52. > :06:55.shamefully urging PC nonsense. He claimed that strip soldiers would

:06:56. > :07:01.never share a shower with g`y soldiers they knew their trte

:07:02. > :07:08.nature, much better to hide and share a shower if you follow Mr

:07:09. > :07:12.Powell's logic. I don't. In my documentary I interviewed g`y men

:07:13. > :07:18.who had been trapped by so-called pretty policeman and a interviewed

:07:19. > :07:24.Chief Constable Anderton of Manchester, delivered of thd

:07:25. > :07:29.tabloids as God's copper, hd sat at his desk and defended the practice

:07:30. > :07:33.of sending out attractive young male police officers who would ghve gay

:07:34. > :07:38.men the eye and if the gay lan responded, he would be arrested and

:07:39. > :07:43.his life ruined. Since I announced this Bill I have had letters from

:07:44. > :07:48.people who have told me of their exact experience of being entrapped

:07:49. > :07:53.by police officers and how ht ruined their life. This entrapment was a

:07:54. > :08:00.police priority in one of the biggest cities in the country in the

:08:01. > :08:04.1990s. It is hard to fathom, because it was a disgrace. Gay men were not

:08:05. > :08:11.free at home or at work. Thdy are not protected by law. They were

:08:12. > :08:15.under sustained attack by the law. I felt myself to be lucky. I had

:08:16. > :08:20.support from friends and a loving family and a good job. I cale out

:08:21. > :08:26.and have never regretted dohng so. Goodness knows I am now a mdmber of

:08:27. > :08:43.the gayest pardon in Parlialent Just look at them.

:08:44. > :08:56.I think a heterosexual has just come out of the closet. Our very gayness

:08:57. > :09:08.has come as you know, made Westminster at the gayest p`rliament

:09:09. > :09:19.in the world. I am just looking over there at the gentleman in the wake

:09:20. > :09:29.and wondering how he is reacting. He has left, in fact. But Mr Ddputy

:09:30. > :09:33.Speaker, I will never forget the men in the documentary I presented for

:09:34. > :09:39.the BBC and the ruined lives, lives scarred by a bitter sense of

:09:40. > :09:44.injustice. So, when I was chosen top of this ballot, I saw in it a golden

:09:45. > :09:48.opportunity. Society had moved on. We are now horrified by the

:09:49. > :09:53.inequalities of the past. Whth syringe when we read the holophobic

:09:54. > :09:58.rantings of some of our predecessors in this place. We believe that gay

:09:59. > :10:09.service personnel should serve. We believe that being gay should be no

:10:10. > :10:12.bar to a career in the diplomatic service or any other servicd. We

:10:13. > :10:15.believe that gay couples should be able to share a bed in a hotel. That

:10:16. > :10:17.gay kids should not be harassed and bullied at school, but Chief

:10:18. > :10:20.constables should not send out officers to entrapped citizdns and

:10:21. > :10:26.we believe the age of consent should be equal. Looking across thd House,

:10:27. > :10:30.I know there is consensus about that in this place, just as therd is in

:10:31. > :10:36.society. We don't want thesd prejudices for our future, but what

:10:37. > :10:42.about those living with unf`ir convictions from our past? How do we

:10:43. > :10:47.address the grievances, how do we address the injustices they

:10:48. > :10:53.suffered? What about men, for instance, if you were 21 and had a

:10:54. > :11:00.boyfriend of 20? I detailed some of those cases for my document`ry. All

:11:01. > :11:03.of us, as diligent MPs, havd had mail from people who found

:11:04. > :11:06.themselves in those circumstances. What about those men of 21 who found

:11:07. > :11:16.themselves arrested, tried `nd Underage sex, just think about what

:11:17. > :11:21.that means to have that on xour record. With a man who is pdrhaps

:11:22. > :11:26.only a few months younger than you were. A consensual relationship with

:11:27. > :11:32.a contemporary, with a contdmporary old enough to serve in the lilitary,

:11:33. > :11:36.old enough to drive a car, holding off legally to have a child of four

:11:37. > :11:42.but regarded by the homophobic laws at the moment is a 20-year-old

:11:43. > :11:49.child, unable to give consent. That's 21-year-old with a criminal

:11:50. > :12:00.conviction has had to endurd perhaps the decades and unfettered ,-

:12:01. > :12:09.untaken fiction for underagd sex. Stonewall had a solution, the

:12:10. > :12:14.touring the macro Turing bill, named after Alan Tampa. Mr Turing may have

:12:15. > :12:19.been hailed by Churchill but that did not prevent him being charged as

:12:20. > :12:26.a homosexual and being chemhcally castrated. Shameful. He comlitted

:12:27. > :12:32.suicide as a result. In his honour, Stonewall wants the gay men living

:12:33. > :12:35.with convictions for crimes no longer on the statute book to be

:12:36. > :12:39.pardoned, and I couldn't thhnk of a more noble build the pilot through

:12:40. > :12:44.Parliament. With all friends on all sides of the house, I have felt that

:12:45. > :12:49.the bill would attract all-party support, and indeed it did `nd I

:12:50. > :12:52.thank those who supported it. So when I was approached by thd Tory

:12:53. > :12:58.whips and asked if I would take on this bill, I was delighted to do so.

:12:59. > :13:03.The Conservative whips asked me for a meeting and promised me that if I

:13:04. > :13:10.took up the Turing bill, thdre would be, and I quote them exactlx, no

:13:11. > :13:20.tricks and no games from our side. I felt as if I was in an episode of

:13:21. > :13:23.House of Cards. The Right Honourable member for Surrey Heath was the

:13:24. > :13:28.Justice Secretary at the tile. He promised me the full support of the

:13:29. > :13:33.justice department. And I h`ve worked closely with Stonewall on

:13:34. > :13:38.this Bill. Let me tell you what this bill does and what this bill does

:13:39. > :13:43.not do. It does provide a blanket pardon for any gay man convhcted of

:13:44. > :13:49.a crime which is no longer ` crime. Now the meaning of that is patently

:13:50. > :13:57.obvious. If the crime for which you were convicted is still a crime by

:13:58. > :14:03.definition you are not pardoned So let nobody be confused about that.

:14:04. > :14:08.The aim of this simple meastre I think is obvious. The pardon confers

:14:09. > :14:16.no immediate advantage, excdpt this: it will come I hope, bring closure

:14:17. > :14:20.to those men who have had to have monstrous unfair convictions for

:14:21. > :14:29.decades. They may have had to hide these convictions from family and

:14:30. > :14:35.friends. It may have prevented them from getting a job, but with my

:14:36. > :14:46.touring Bill pardon, societx acknowledges that a gross injustice

:14:47. > :14:49.was done in spent. There max also be some who want something mord. Some

:14:50. > :14:53.will feel that they should not be offered a pardon for somethhng that

:14:54. > :14:56.was never wrong in the first place, and for those men I offer an

:14:57. > :15:02.additional option, should they choose it. They will be abld to have

:15:03. > :15:06.their name expunged from thd records. However, and this hs

:15:07. > :15:15.important, and many members have raised this with me, the records are

:15:16. > :15:20.often imprecise. Often, thex were catch all arrests, where thd police

:15:21. > :15:23.would not specify the detail. So where the records are imprecise

:15:24. > :15:31.where it is unclear whether the underage party was 20, 19, 08, 7,

:15:32. > :15:36.16, crucially 15-15 younger, the onus will be on the applicant to

:15:37. > :15:44.prove the age of his partner at the time of the arrest. Now, as a result

:15:45. > :15:48.of this, some men may not bd able to have their records expunged because

:15:49. > :15:55.they are unable to provide the necessary proof, even though the

:15:56. > :15:59.partner was over today's agd of consent. That would be deeply

:16:00. > :16:02.frustrating for them, I recognise that, however this provision

:16:03. > :16:08.absolutely satisfies the concerns raised that we must be rigorous in

:16:09. > :16:11.ensuring that only those who benefit not only those who benefit from

:16:12. > :16:19.these measures, and all the legal advice I have taken leaves le

:16:20. > :16:24.satisfied that this Bill absolutely addresses that concern, and is as

:16:25. > :16:27.watertight as it is possibld to be, under the circumstances. Stonewall

:16:28. > :16:30.believes that only small nulbers of men will avail themselves of this

:16:31. > :16:35.provision of a second provision of my bill. Many of the men affected

:16:36. > :16:41.our old, and these matters `re far in their past and perhaps a secret.

:16:42. > :16:46.The requirements I'm imposing would be time-consuming and perhaps

:16:47. > :16:50.distressing for them to sathsfy They will, I believe, Stonewall

:16:51. > :16:55.believes, be satisfied with my automatic pardon. They will not seek

:16:56. > :17:00.to have the details expunged manually from their record. Now if

:17:01. > :17:04.you'll forgive me Mr Deputy Speaker, I want to get back to that no tricks

:17:05. > :17:10.and no games promise, because I think it is important, becatse we

:17:11. > :17:16.may not be planning to stay in this house for very long, but other

:17:17. > :17:21.members present are passion`te about Westminster, and want Westmhnster to

:17:22. > :17:25.succeed, so nothing that we should do in procedural terms, surdly,

:17:26. > :17:32.should bring this house into disrepute, when we know certain

:17:33. > :17:36.words like filibuster, shocked and horrified ordinary members of the

:17:37. > :17:43.public who think it is appalling. I was hoping for an interventhon and

:17:44. > :17:46.at last one came, thank you. I thank the Honourable member for allowing

:17:47. > :17:49.me to intervene so early in the debate, and congratulate hil on

:17:50. > :17:54.doing all he was doing to r`ise the profile of this very import`nt issue

:17:55. > :17:58.in public. The real question today that we need the answer is how can

:17:59. > :18:02.we deliver justice in the qtickest, fairest way to those who have

:18:03. > :18:07.suffered the humiliation of conviction under archaic laws.

:18:08. > :18:09.Yesterday, the government announced that we would answer this qtestion

:18:10. > :18:14.with a legislative vehicle that would provide a pardon for those

:18:15. > :18:17.people within a few months. This delivers on the manifesto commitment

:18:18. > :18:23.but it also has cross-party support. It will be an amendment brotght

:18:24. > :18:27.forward by a Liberal Democr`t peer and the Labour leader Jeremx Corbyn

:18:28. > :18:31.yesterday called the move a great victory for Paul who have c`mpaigned

:18:32. > :18:38.for this wrong. So as well `s honouring the dead... If yot would

:18:39. > :18:41.hear me out, please? As well as honouring the dead, the Honourable

:18:42. > :18:46.member seeks a pardon for the living, we have developed a way to

:18:47. > :18:51.do this without giving a perception that the pardon covers perpdtrators

:18:52. > :18:57.of sex with a minor or non-conceptual sex. What I would

:18:58. > :19:02.like to do today is to make a full and open offer to the Honourable

:19:03. > :19:06.member to work with officials in the Ministry of Justice and the Home

:19:07. > :19:11.Office and Stonewall to givd real effect to this pardon for the dead

:19:12. > :19:15.and the living, as fairly and quickly as possible. So I ask him to

:19:16. > :19:19.withdraw this bill and support the amendment that has cross-party

:19:20. > :19:24.support in this house and the other place to resolve an injustice that

:19:25. > :19:28.the too long has been left unchallenged. I would like to thank

:19:29. > :19:33.the Minister and of course H accepted your off back in Jtne. Your

:19:34. > :19:39.government's offer back in June so we have had plenty of time to chat

:19:40. > :19:42.about this, and I have to s`y that standing up and proposing an offer

:19:43. > :19:47.of cooperation on the morning of my debate might be regarded as leaving

:19:48. > :19:51.it somewhat late for us to have a further private chat, but it's

:19:52. > :19:54.crucial for the Honourable lember who shakes his head and says not my

:19:55. > :19:58.offer and he obviously didn't know anything about it. But I can assure

:19:59. > :20:04.you that I have been talking with members of the government, on and

:20:05. > :20:08.off, since June. So yesterd`y, the government, as you know, as you just

:20:09. > :20:12.said, accepted an amendment to the policing bill in the Lords `nd

:20:13. > :20:18.claimed that it was the Turhng bill. It isn't. Even though some rather

:20:19. > :20:23.obliging news outlets have trumpeted their claim after reading the press

:20:24. > :20:26.releases. Now I will leave ht to memos of a house to decide whether

:20:27. > :20:34.it's fair to try and attempt to hijack my bill some 36 hours before

:20:35. > :20:38.its second reading in this place. The private member build process is

:20:39. > :20:41.after all intended to allow those of us not in government to seek to

:20:42. > :20:49.leave a legacy of legislation, which we believe is good, kind and

:20:50. > :20:53.worthwhile. And I believe that this bill is kind. The amendment accepted

:20:54. > :20:58.by the government would grant an automatic pardon to the decdased

:20:59. > :21:04.honour if I understand it correctly. And yet the minister says hd is very

:21:05. > :21:09.concerned that the Bill's rdvisions would be misused, because some

:21:10. > :21:14.people who behaved improperly would get under the radar, and wotld get

:21:15. > :21:19.pardons that they are not entitled to. If he thinks it's hard to

:21:20. > :21:22.enforce that with the living, imagine, by his own logic, how much

:21:23. > :21:26.harder it is to enforce that with the dead. So there is an

:21:27. > :21:30.intellectual incoherence. You can shake your head but there is an

:21:31. > :21:33.intellectual incoherence at the heart of what you are proposing And

:21:34. > :21:39.I fear that you haven't really thought it through. And I know that,

:21:40. > :21:42.because I have been told in the cause of this bill, that I would

:21:43. > :21:45.need government support, th`t I wouldn't get government support

:21:46. > :21:49.then I would get government support, then I might get government support.

:21:50. > :21:53.I'm afraid the Conservative government has been all over the

:21:54. > :22:01.place on this, and I was very keen for this not to be a party political

:22:02. > :22:04.issue. And at no point have I gone into the press or given intdrviews

:22:05. > :22:10.in which I refer to this as an SNP measure. I did not. And in fact as

:22:11. > :22:14.you know, it's an English mdasure, so that those who criticise the SNP

:22:15. > :22:17.and say it is overly concerned with the Constitution and Scottish

:22:18. > :22:25.issues, here's something th`t tackles and English injustice. And I

:22:26. > :22:30.was keen to do so, I won't thank you, on a cross-party basis, and I

:22:31. > :22:33.would think because there wdre so many things shoes from the

:22:34. > :22:36.Conservative Party and the Labour Party when I put forward my bill

:22:37. > :22:47.rather proves this. -- so m`ny signatories. Thank you very much, Mr

:22:48. > :22:51.Deputy Speaker. Thank you. The Honourable member, and can H commend

:22:52. > :22:56.him in the Tony has brought to the speech today, but you said Dnglish

:22:57. > :23:01.only. As a Welsh MP, it's in linen and Wales, so can I remind xou of

:23:02. > :23:05.that country, tagged on in xour opinion, to England and perhaps

:23:06. > :23:12.tease out on you what perhaps is the taste is in Scotland with the

:23:13. > :23:16.Scottish Government? -- what the status is. My apologies for saying

:23:17. > :23:20.England only, and no one finds this more annoying than Scots, so I beg

:23:21. > :23:23.thee on the walls and in's pardon for that. You will know that the

:23:24. > :23:26.Scottish Government has been a long-time champion of gay rhghts,

:23:27. > :23:31.and the country has become famous for its progress on this issue. In

:23:32. > :23:34.fact, I remember there was ` time when we were told by opponents of

:23:35. > :23:40.devolution that we should not have a Scottish Parliament, becausd we

:23:41. > :23:45.relied on Westminster to kedp as liberal. That was an old argument

:23:46. > :23:51.from the proper 1970s, I relember. We needed English and Welsh MPs to

:23:52. > :23:56.keep us on the right side of liberal reform, otherwise we would be a

:23:57. > :24:06.religious puppet state, a sort of Presbyterians Iran. LAUGHTER

:24:07. > :24:12.I like to think that the progress we have made since Holyrood cale into

:24:13. > :24:18.being has rather shown we h`ve a good record on that, but to address

:24:19. > :24:21.your point I have had discussions with Scottish ministers. Thdre is of

:24:22. > :24:24.course widespread welcome for this legislation and it is my belief that

:24:25. > :24:34.Holyrood would enact somethhng very similar in due course. Now H went,

:24:35. > :24:38.thank you. Now, -- now I won't, thank you. Let's focus on the

:24:39. > :24:41.amendment what the Minister mentioned stars. The amendmdnt

:24:42. > :24:47.accepted by the government would grant an automatic pardon to the

:24:48. > :24:51.deceased, and of course that's great, but my bill provides the same

:24:52. > :24:58.provision. But I have to ask the bill, should we not priorithse the

:24:59. > :25:03.living over the dead? Now I don t know if you spotted an elderly

:25:04. > :25:05.gentleman who toured the TV and radio studios yesterday, a

:25:06. > :25:11.93-year-old, who feels immensely strongly, no, none of the mdmbers on

:25:12. > :25:18.the Labour benches, somebodx different, the record the TV -- who

:25:19. > :25:20.toured the TV studios yesterday talking about the injustice that he

:25:21. > :25:25.feels about his criminal convictions. He hashtags hilself the

:25:26. > :25:33.oldest gay in the village on twitter. He is 93 and he saxs he is

:25:34. > :25:36.determined to live to 100 to see justice served, because he has lived

:25:37. > :25:43.with a sense of injustice all these years. I am going to make progress.

:25:44. > :25:46.How odd would it look for the elderly to be told that thex must

:25:47. > :25:50.wait until they die for the automatic pardon which the

:25:51. > :25:54.government now seems to be proposing?

:25:55. > :26:03.Let us finish the law reforl we have started by recognising that the

:26:04. > :26:07.victims of our prejudices are still hurting and they are still `live.

:26:08. > :26:18.They deserve the piece that this Bill would bring. I beg to love The

:26:19. > :26:26.question is that the Bill now be read a second time. Thank you Mr

:26:27. > :26:30.Deputy Speaker. Our history is littered with minority groups who

:26:31. > :26:35.have been caught up in illegal acts which we see today as being

:26:36. > :26:40.unbelievable and discriminatory Laws that we cannot imagine because

:26:41. > :26:45.morals and ethics of change to be on all recognition from bygone eras. In

:26:46. > :26:53.fact, there are a string of moral and ethical subjects which we cannot

:26:54. > :26:57.imagine criminalising or whhch are still criminal offences. Only in

:26:58. > :27:01.April of this year, a young woman in Northern Ireland who could not

:27:02. > :27:08.afford the fare to England for an abortion and in desperation took

:27:09. > :27:14.abortion pills she bought online. She was under this Northern Irish

:27:15. > :27:18.law arrested, charged and sdntenced to three months in jail, suspended

:27:19. > :27:24.for two years and finally criminalised. That was in April of

:27:25. > :27:28.this year. She was convicted in Belfast High Court and ancidnt laws

:27:29. > :27:33.that came into force and Quden Victoria but still sit on the

:27:34. > :27:37.statute books of Northern Ireland. Prostitution is another subject for

:27:38. > :27:42.historically and today we sde so much ambiguity around what hs and

:27:43. > :27:49.what is not illegal. Today, despite moving away from one stereotype of

:27:50. > :27:53.the disreputable woman as a seller of sexual services, we look at the

:27:54. > :27:57.prostitute as a vulnerable `nd exploited victim. The laws `round

:27:58. > :28:01.prostitution in England and Wales are far from straightforward. The

:28:02. > :28:05.active prostitution is not htself illegal bodies can of laws

:28:06. > :28:11.criminalises activities arotnd it. It is an offence to cause or inside

:28:12. > :28:15.prostitution or control it for personal gain. In 1956 sexu`l

:28:16. > :28:27.offences Act bans running a brothel with more than one person and the

:28:28. > :28:31.law is gender neutral. However. . Might want to correct. Therd is no

:28:32. > :28:37.definition in a lot of what a brothel constitutes. The law allows

:28:38. > :28:43.for the court to determine that a brothel is a frequented place by men

:28:44. > :28:47.to perform lewd, a sexual practices including dancing. It has often been

:28:48. > :28:55.used in that sense. There are still plenty on the statute books which

:28:56. > :28:57.need reform. The honourable member makes my point eloquently, but they

:28:58. > :29:06.got around prostitution is so ambiguous that it is quite dasy to

:29:07. > :29:10.see how people can be chargdd with offences we feel are ridiculous

:29:11. > :29:15.Whether you are morally opposed to some of these subjects or not is not

:29:16. > :29:19.the issue. The reality is that a progressive government in a modern

:29:20. > :29:23.democracy will continue to look at and debate openly all of thdse

:29:24. > :29:27.issues. I am proud is a Conservative that some of these progresshve

:29:28. > :29:33.issues have been brought forward under successive Conservative

:29:34. > :29:37.governments. On the issue of decriminalising, sexuality, it was

:29:38. > :29:42.the Churchill government whhch did that in the late 1950s. By no means

:29:43. > :29:52.a turning point in history, but it was the start of a lengthy process

:29:53. > :29:57.to put right a very serious wrong. Any of my colleagues might `rgue

:29:58. > :30:02.that a crime is a crime and that was the law of the land at the time Why

:30:03. > :30:07.are we looking at pardons for laws that our forefathers thought were

:30:08. > :30:12.apt for the time and the dax? Why should we feel guilty for p`st

:30:13. > :30:15.lawmakers who, like us, makd laws and pass legislation that fhts the

:30:16. > :30:23.mood of the kinds of that p`rticular day? Why pardon gay and bisdxual men

:30:24. > :30:29.when we see how many more hhstorical moral issues you could argud for as

:30:30. > :30:34.well? For me the answer has got to be the police. We all know that

:30:35. > :30:39.forces operate in a way which forces operate in a way which

:30:40. > :30:44.sometimes hasn't been totally honest, open or above board. Just

:30:45. > :30:49.look what happened at Hillsborough and not to mention the cases of

:30:50. > :30:53.abuse swept under the carpet. Many of us in This House still come

:30:54. > :30:59.across cases where you cannot but help question the ethos of our local

:31:00. > :31:03.police forces, knowing full well what has gone on historically. In

:31:04. > :31:08.the cases of criminal convictions around, sexuality, it doesn't take

:31:09. > :31:12.too long when you travel thd internet to see what was once common

:31:13. > :31:18.practice for our local police forces when dealing with homosexuality in

:31:19. > :31:25.years gone by. In Bolton, not 1 million miles from my consthtuency,

:31:26. > :31:28.in 1958, a public lavatory was well known to police and magistr`tes he

:31:29. > :31:34.hadn't been a conviction for 30 years. On the other hand, there

:31:35. > :31:38.would be to commit trawls through address books of suspected sexual is

:31:39. > :31:42.with the result that up to 20 men at a time would appear in the dock

:31:43. > :31:49.accused of being homosexuals, even though many of them might ndver have

:31:50. > :31:54.met each other before. In one case, there was no public sex, though

:31:55. > :32:00.under age sex, not multiple sex yet they were dragged to court `nd a

:32:01. > :32:05.21-year-old man, considered the ringleader, was sentenced to 21

:32:06. > :32:10.months in jail. Interestingly, the Bolton evening News at daythme had

:32:11. > :32:15.five letters of support for the convicted men and none against the

:32:16. > :32:20.convicted men at all. The ddputy editor was visited by the local

:32:21. > :32:23.police who wanted to know if he really thought this was what the

:32:24. > :32:29.people of Bolton really thotght about the enforcement of thd law. In

:32:30. > :32:32.the mid-19 50s, there was an atmosphere of a witchhunt, probably

:32:33. > :32:36.not unrelated to what was h`ppening in America with McCarthy, whth

:32:37. > :32:45.consequent opportunities for blackmail. A chap called Lille Alps

:32:46. > :32:49.who piloted the sexual law reform Act through this Parliament recalls

:32:50. > :32:53.it as a lawyer in Cardiff is fees for criminals suddenly started

:32:54. > :32:58.coming from the account of one man. He investigated and found hd was a

:32:59. > :33:04.professor. The criminals were bleeding him drive through

:33:05. > :33:09.blackmail. Mr Deputy Speaker, MPs on both sides of the House beg`n to

:33:10. > :33:12.demand action. One or two ndwspapers ran leaders and there was a

:33:13. > :33:20.high-profile case in which police were called on one matter and ended

:33:21. > :33:26.up prosecuting for another. Edward Montagu contacted the policd over a

:33:27. > :33:31.stolen camera and ended up hn prison for a year for gross indecency. Two

:33:32. > :33:37.of his friends, Michael Pitt Rivers and another got 18 months. Their

:33:38. > :33:42.trial in 1954 probably playdd into the decision of the Home Secretary,

:33:43. > :33:47.David Maxwell, to establish a committee to consider whethdr a

:33:48. > :33:52.change in the law was necessary The question is, should men likd these

:33:53. > :33:55.men, be pardoned? Of course they should. The police and magistrates

:33:56. > :34:02.are clearly abused their powers to instil fear and practice entrapment.

:34:03. > :34:06.Mr Deputy Speaker, the question is whether we should support this Bill

:34:07. > :34:11.before us work with the govdrnment amendment to the police and crime

:34:12. > :34:17.Bill? The honourable member for the Bill proposes a blanket pardon

:34:18. > :34:21.without the need to go throtgh the disregard process. The government

:34:22. > :34:24.amendment is exactly the sale but would mean those living would have

:34:25. > :34:32.to go through that disregard the process. I for one... I think the

:34:33. > :34:36.honourable member for giving way. I would like to make a point on the

:34:37. > :34:41.living and the fact that we already prioritise the living, unlike the

:34:42. > :34:44.point The Member For East Dunbartonshire made. Those who are

:34:45. > :34:49.living can go to the disreg`rd process and get a statutory pardon

:34:50. > :34:52.at the end of that process. The important thing is the safeguard

:34:53. > :34:57.which is so you don't have ` situation where someone who receives

:34:58. > :35:04.a blanket pardon, when they actually had sex with a minor gets the pardon

:35:05. > :35:10.and goes to work in a school. I would like to thank my honotrable

:35:11. > :35:16.friend for that clarification. He took my next two paragraphs out of

:35:17. > :35:21.my speech. Thank you very mtch. He makes the point exactly. Thhs is one

:35:22. > :35:25.reason why I cannot support this private members Bill becausd I

:35:26. > :35:33.believe that to do so could lead, in some cases, despite what thd

:35:34. > :35:38.honourable member for East Dunbartonshire says, I don't believe

:35:39. > :35:51.it is in fact watertight as claimed, because people could be clahming the

:35:52. > :35:59.did not commit offences which are still crimes when they in f`ct did.

:36:00. > :36:05.He prepared for his speech by reading the Bill? " Says thd effect

:36:06. > :36:11.of this Act, nothing in this Act is to be interpreted as disreg`rding or

:36:12. > :36:13.pardoning or in otherwise affecting consequences of convictions or

:36:14. > :36:18.cautions for conduct or beh`viour that is on lawful on the date that

:36:19. > :36:26.the Act comes into force. What is unclear about that? I would like to

:36:27. > :36:32.thank the honourable member for that intervention. My big concern is how

:36:33. > :36:35.do we physically put that through June diligence process? The

:36:36. > :36:42.disregard process is that process. Why on earth would you, as someone

:36:43. > :36:51.who has been convicted, I h`ve already said there are a lot of

:36:52. > :36:54.people and men from the past who clearly have had a process where

:36:55. > :36:58.they should be pardoned, but actually, how do we check that

:36:59. > :37:06.process? The disregard procdss is therefore that process. When my

:37:07. > :37:09.honourable friend was explahning that, what you are not listdning

:37:10. > :37:14.question that anyone who has to go through that process will h`ve to

:37:15. > :37:20.prove the age, it might be difficult in many cases, the age of the other

:37:21. > :37:24.party which led to the convhction. Many people will find that

:37:25. > :37:29.impossible given the records. It is a safeguard against the verx thing

:37:30. > :37:34.he is talking about. I don't agree that it is a safeguard. If we give a

:37:35. > :37:37.blanket pardon, where are the safeguards to check that process?

:37:38. > :37:44.That is exactly why we have a disregard process in the system

:37:45. > :37:48.already that should be used as. It is important we have these

:37:49. > :37:52.safeguards in place. It is still an offence in this country to have

:37:53. > :37:58.underage sex and when we have the issues we are having in our schools

:37:59. > :38:05.and around safeguarding of children it is vitally important that we have

:38:06. > :38:09.those safeguards in place. For me, Mr Deputy Speaker, while I have

:38:10. > :38:13.every sympathy for the Bill presented today by The Membdr For

:38:14. > :38:17.East Dunbartonshire, I will not be supporting it, but will support the

:38:18. > :38:20.government amendment to the police and crime Bill because I thhnk it is

:38:21. > :38:27.incredibly important that wd have those safeguards in any process that

:38:28. > :38:34.we do. I believe disregarding the disregard process would be the wrong

:38:35. > :38:41.thing to do. Thank you very much. I warmly congratulate the whole of the

:38:42. > :38:45.SNP on turning up today to support the honourable gentleman and he has

:38:46. > :38:48.put his argument extremely well It is strange living in the world today

:38:49. > :38:55.and looking around this country and being able to see so much that has

:38:56. > :38:59.changed so very rapidly. Yotng people at school today are not

:39:00. > :39:03.ashamed of running up that they are gay or lesbian or bisexual. Everyone

:39:04. > :39:08.of us, when we go to a secondary school, will see that kids `re happy

:39:09. > :39:13.to do that. When most of us went to school, there was nobody who was in

:39:14. > :39:17.that category at all. Civil partnerships and same-sex m`rriage

:39:18. > :39:22.have made an enormous difference to the way the whole of societx looks

:39:23. > :39:26.at sexuality. Many children at school will note that other children

:39:27. > :39:31.in their primary School havd gay parents. They have either bden

:39:32. > :39:37.adopted or surrogate had or are in a set of circumstance where they have

:39:38. > :39:39.two dads or two months. That is not an uncommon experience for lany

:39:40. > :39:44.youngsters about the future will be even warmer than that. I don't think

:39:45. > :39:47.there's any employer in Britain today he thinks it would be ready to

:39:48. > :39:51.sack someone because of thehr sexuality and as the honour`ble

:39:52. > :39:57.member referred to, it is a delight that applies to our Armed Forces and

:39:58. > :40:02.police as well. In short periods of time ago, ministers made colplicated

:40:03. > :40:06.decisions about whether to `llow members of the Armed Forces to march

:40:07. > :40:12.in gay pride marches in uniform That seems a bizarre and outdated

:40:13. > :40:16.debate to have had. So, there is a phenomenal sense that we have made

:40:17. > :40:23.enormous achievements, enorlous strides in this country. I `m

:40:24. > :40:28.grateful to the honourable gentleman forgiving way. Does the honourable

:40:29. > :40:35.gentleman agree that much of the progress in the change in attitudes

:40:36. > :40:40.toward, sexual and gay and lesbian people in general in societx has

:40:41. > :40:46.come through the media and the way that gay and lesbian people are

:40:47. > :40:50.portrayed in soap operas and on a date when I understand that This

:40:51. > :40:56.House is about to be joined by a former actress from Coronathon

:40:57. > :40:59.Street, characters like the gay picture in Coronation Street, for

:41:00. > :41:01.example? This has all helped to change the way gay and lesbhan

:41:02. > :41:11.people are perceived. I think the media has played a

:41:12. > :41:15.double edged sword, to be honest. I am quite sick of the fact that the

:41:16. > :41:21.gay character in a crime dr`ma will be the murderer. Historically, it

:41:22. > :41:26.was Larry Grayson and I don't know, John Inman always maintained that

:41:27. > :41:30.his character in you being served wasn't gay. It is true that the

:41:31. > :41:40.campest people I know are all heterosexual men. LAUGHTER

:41:41. > :41:45.But I just said to the Honotrable gentleman, yes it did matter when

:41:46. > :41:52.Michael Cashman's character kissed another man on Eastenders. That was

:41:53. > :41:58.a change making moment, and I think British society has moved on faster

:41:59. > :42:01.maybe because our broadcastdrs in this country, partly, inciddntally,

:42:02. > :42:05.through Mrs Thatcher's reaction of Channel 4, which was given ` role to

:42:06. > :42:12.be edgy and different and all of that, has made it possible for us to

:42:13. > :42:15.make strides very fast. But it doesn't always work like th`t. I'm

:42:16. > :42:20.still mystified why Australha, which seems to me the campest nathon on

:42:21. > :42:24.earth, obsessed with Abba, still doesn't have any form of

:42:25. > :42:28.legalisation of gay relationships. And I very much hope that is going

:42:29. > :42:33.to happen soon, and I come onto one of the reasons why I think that

:42:34. > :42:37.might be in a moment. Also, incidentally, I remember thd rows

:42:38. > :42:43.there were in my time as an MP when the House of Lords refused to make

:42:44. > :42:47.for an equal age of consent and get rid of section 20 eight. We had to

:42:48. > :42:51.use the Parliament act to ptsh that through, and yet when it cale to

:42:52. > :42:53.same-sex marriage, the Housd of Lords, there were more consdrvative

:42:54. > :43:01.members of the House of Lords who voted in favour of it than there

:43:02. > :43:04.were members of the Conserv`tives in the House of Commons who voted for

:43:05. > :43:08.it. I also remember when thdre was a row in this house about whether we

:43:09. > :43:13.should ban discrimination and provision of goods and servhces

:43:14. > :43:20.including adoption services, to gay couples. And I was back that the

:43:21. > :43:26.Catholic Church's argument `t the time was it's fine for an individual

:43:27. > :43:30.gay person to adopt a child but not for a couple. So a settled

:43:31. > :43:34.relationship was in their mhnd a more dangerous place than somebody

:43:35. > :43:37.who was single. And I just didn t understand that logic and the truth

:43:38. > :43:41.of the matter is that many of the most difficult to place kids are

:43:42. > :43:45.placed with gay and lesbian couples. I am glad that in the end this house

:43:46. > :43:49.and the House of Lords wholeheartedly endorse the hdea that

:43:50. > :43:53.there should be no discrimination of provision of goods and servhces But

:43:54. > :43:57.not anything is perfect -- not everything is perfect still,

:43:58. > :44:00.bullying is still going on hn schools and it is through dhfficult

:44:01. > :44:06.to eradicate. I mean the le`ding on many different fronts but one of

:44:07. > :44:12.them is in relation to sexu`lity. The word gay is all too oftdn used

:44:13. > :44:17.in a pejorative sense, and schools find difficulties sometimes dealing

:44:18. > :44:20.with these issues. My husband Jarod is a trustee of a charity c`lled

:44:21. > :44:24.diversity role models, which tries to go into schools and talk through

:44:25. > :44:28.his issues because I still think it is a phenomenal shame that we don't

:44:29. > :44:32.have proper sex and relationship education in every single school in

:44:33. > :44:35.this land, without any schools being able to opt out, because in the end

:44:36. > :44:41.that means that most kids end up having their first sexual

:44:42. > :44:43.experience, delaying it, yot end up cutting the level of teenagd

:44:44. > :44:47.pregnancy and I think it is better for everybody all ran to have proper

:44:48. > :44:50.sex and relationship educathon. But let's just remember, I can't

:44:51. > :44:55.remember whether I'm slightly older or slightly younger than thd

:44:56. > :45:03.Honourable gentleman. Alder. Alder, apparently. LAUGHTER

:45:04. > :45:08.I see he is in as magnanimots a mood as usual! So being slightly older I

:45:09. > :45:12.have even more experience and wisdom to in part than him. LAUGHTDR

:45:13. > :45:17.I just remember one of my vdry first experiences coming to London was

:45:18. > :45:23.meeting a couple called Chrhstopher and tilted. They had lived together

:45:24. > :45:28.since the 1950s. Just after I first met them, they had, one of them had

:45:29. > :45:32.been attacked on the way hole. They were living together. They had a

:45:33. > :45:41.one-bedroom flat. He was attacked on the way home, and had lots of

:45:42. > :45:48.injuries, and they were worried about whether some of those would be

:45:49. > :45:52.permanent injuries. The guy had insisted on coming in the house and

:45:53. > :45:58.had burgled them at knife-point And what was really striking about their

:45:59. > :46:02.story was they could neither go to hospital, nor could they go to

:46:03. > :46:05.police, because they lived hn a one-bedroom flat and there were two

:46:06. > :46:11.people living in it. Under the law of the land, that was a crilinal

:46:12. > :46:13.offence. That was a criminal offence, and they knew they would

:46:14. > :46:19.not get justice, despite wh`t had happened to them. And there are

:46:20. > :46:24.countless thousands of others to whom that applied. When I w`s at

:46:25. > :46:32.university, I remember two of my friends, I at the time was sort of

:46:33. > :46:39.straight. LAUGHTER How does that work? Well, I'm a

:46:40. > :46:44.practising homosexual now. One day I will be quite good at it. L@UGHTER

:46:45. > :46:52.Incidentally, I was also a sort of Conservative at the time, btt we

:46:53. > :46:55.won't go into that! Many, m`ny sins. But the serious point is th`t at the

:46:56. > :47:00.time I remember two of my friends got into trouble with one of the

:47:01. > :47:05.University police, because they had had sex. They were 19-year-olds two

:47:06. > :47:09.men, that was a criminal offence, they were U21, and certainlx a

:47:10. > :47:14.college room is not a private place, but it didn't matter under the law.

:47:15. > :47:21.The two were sent down, nevdr finished the university degrees and

:47:22. > :47:25.they got a criminal convicthon. Until the sexual offences act in

:47:26. > :47:32.2003, importuning was illeg`l in this country. Importuning, ht sounds

:47:33. > :47:37.a strange word, it meant and was by the police for many convicthons

:47:38. > :47:42.right up until the end of this, until 2003, for if you had let

:47:43. > :47:45.somebody in a bar, if a man had met somebody in a bar that they didn't

:47:46. > :47:48.know before they went into ` bar and went home with them. That w`s

:47:49. > :47:53.importuning and you could bd sent down for it until 2003. And often

:47:54. > :47:58.the police when they could not secure a conviction for somdthing

:47:59. > :48:04.else, relied on that as the charge that they brought. Many people hid

:48:05. > :48:07.their sexuality for the simple reason they would terrified they

:48:08. > :48:10.would be sacked or they would not be promoted or advanced. I pay tribute

:48:11. > :48:13.to John Major, I think it w`s him when he was Foreign Secretary, he

:48:14. > :48:20.was the first person who sahd he won't be sacked the just behng gay

:48:21. > :48:24.in the Foreign Office. The number of people who are subject to blackmail

:48:25. > :48:28.in very ordinary jobs. You didn t have to no state secrets. You just

:48:29. > :48:31.had to be a person who was frightened of being exposed for

:48:32. > :48:35.being a criminal, and potentially being sent to prison for it, to be

:48:36. > :48:41.subject to blackmail in your local community. And of course thd number

:48:42. > :48:49.of suicides has remained sttbbornly high. I am going to refer to one a

:48:50. > :48:54.little bit later. Historically, the UK, since its foundation in 180 ,

:48:55. > :48:57.Great Britain 1707, and for that matter England before it, h`s had

:48:58. > :49:02.the toughest laws on homosexuality in the world. Much tougher than the

:49:03. > :49:06.French under the Napoleonic code, which made no reference to `ny of

:49:07. > :49:12.this. Our colonies around the world are actually still are some of the

:49:13. > :49:18.countries with the worst laws on this, our former colonies, hn some

:49:19. > :49:22.cases capital punishment survives. We have made great strides towards

:49:23. > :49:28.equality, but as we all know still live with the legacy of anthquated

:49:29. > :49:31.legislation. And we only nedd to look at certain Commonwealth

:49:32. > :49:37.countries, for example of this, in some cases the anti-gay laws in

:49:38. > :49:40.existence are mirror copies of those which existed here. So would the

:49:41. > :49:44.Honourable member agree with me that if we are to start making

:49:45. > :49:47.reparations for this wrongdoing in addition to pardoning those

:49:48. > :49:51.convicted, we must also seek to influence other members of the

:49:52. > :49:56.Commonwealth where gay men `nd women do not enjoy freedom to be who they

:49:57. > :50:00.are? Yes, I wholeheartedly `gree, and indeed when I was a Fordign

:50:01. > :50:07.Office minister for about two and a half seconds... LAUGHTER

:50:08. > :50:11.That was one of the things, far too long, I know, I did try to push

:50:12. > :50:13.forward some of these issues, and for that matter I think the Foreign

:50:14. > :50:18.Office can play an important role around the world in relation to

:50:19. > :50:23.abuse in countries as diverse as Iran and Russia for that matter I

:50:24. > :50:26.would say to my Australian colleagues, for heaven sake just get

:50:27. > :50:32.your act together, really jtst get your act together. Join the company

:50:33. > :50:37.of all the nations who have changed. I mean, if Argentina can have gay

:50:38. > :50:40.marriage, if Spain, so dominated historically by Catholicism, can

:50:41. > :50:46.have gay marriage, why on e`rth can't Australia, the countrx of

:50:47. > :50:54.Priscilla Queen of the desert? Why on earth can't Australia have gay

:50:55. > :50:59.marriage? What we are debathng any sense comes from one of the worst

:51:00. > :51:02.moment in our history in relation to this, the 1870s and 1880s, where a

:51:03. > :51:08.deliberate hysteria was whipped up around homosexuality in this country

:51:09. > :51:13.by a series of scurrilous and horrible newspapers. And it led to

:51:14. > :51:16.the criminal law Amendment `ct of 1885, which was a serious phece of

:51:17. > :51:19.legislation trying to tackld the problem of underage young women who

:51:20. > :51:24.were being abused in the prostitution trade. Henry L`mont

:51:25. > :51:29.share introduced a clause and just want to read it out because I hope

:51:30. > :51:37.that people will realise quhte how pernicious a piece of legislation it

:51:38. > :51:42.was. "Any Male person who in public in public who commits or is it a

:51:43. > :51:47.party of commission of the fuels or attempt to put the commission by any

:51:48. > :51:51.male person of any act of gross indecency by another male pdrson

:51:52. > :51:53.shall be guilty of a misdemdanour, and being convicted thereof shall be

:51:54. > :51:57.liable at the discretion of the court to be imprisoned for `ny term

:51:58. > :52:07.not exceeding two years, with or without hard labour. In public or in

:52:08. > :52:11.private. Commit boys a parthcle procures or attempts to procure "

:52:12. > :52:14.They could not have made it more wide reaching. The piece of

:52:15. > :52:20.legislation that any court would be able to determine as they fdlt fit.

:52:21. > :52:23.And the line at the end of that hard labour, that is of course

:52:24. > :52:32.partly what ended up killing Oscar Wilde, as is so famous. And that

:52:33. > :52:35.legislation led to thousands and thousands of people being sdnt to

:52:36. > :52:40.prison and doing hard labour. There was a campaign in the 1920s to try

:52:41. > :52:47.and read this country of its scourge. A young lad from the

:52:48. > :52:52.Rhondda, a railway porter c`lled commerce committee was caught by the

:52:53. > :52:58.police outside the theatre. They tried to do him the gross indecency.

:52:59. > :53:03.He was in the end sent to prison for three months and did hard l`bour.

:53:04. > :53:07.The only piece of evidence that they had to advance was that he had his

:53:08. > :53:11.mother's powderpuff in his pocket. The only piece of evidence, and he

:53:12. > :53:17.was sent to prison for thred months. I'm so, so proud that the MP at the

:53:18. > :53:23.time for Rhondda West, who was William John, a minor, he g`ve

:53:24. > :53:28.evidence on behalf of the young man, but the court didn't listen to him.

:53:29. > :53:33.In the 1950s, we came back to it all over again. David Maxwell Fxfe, the

:53:34. > :53:45.Home Secretary. Wonderful in helping draft, wonderful at New England is

:53:46. > :53:48.one of the inquisitors, and the human rights Convention, but he was

:53:49. > :53:51.shockingly homophobic and forced the Home Office and the police began to

:53:52. > :53:57.rid this country of this scourge, as he put it, of homosexuality. One of

:53:58. > :54:02.the terrible ironies is that the first who are in fact fact were

:54:03. > :54:08.conservative members of Parliament. Now I just want to come to the bill

:54:09. > :54:11.itself. I listen to what thd minister said and I just sax to him

:54:12. > :54:17.there is a real problem abott trying to force people to go through

:54:18. > :54:21.another process. There is a real problem, because why on earth would

:54:22. > :54:28.you, if you are now in your 70s or 80s, even though this has bden like

:54:29. > :54:31.a mark, like a brand on you for all of your life, which may havd caused

:54:32. > :54:34.terrible problems in your f`mily life, may have meant that you were

:54:35. > :54:38.never able to do the job th`t you wanted to do in life, may bd meant

:54:39. > :54:42.that you as a teacher were never able to go back to teaching, may be

:54:43. > :54:46.meant that your friends and relatives shunned EU and th`t you

:54:47. > :54:50.felt terribly, terribly ash`med why on earth would you want to write to

:54:51. > :54:53.the Home Secretary and say please can I be pardoned? Why on e`rth

:54:54. > :54:56.would you want to go through a process all over again, why on earth

:54:57. > :55:01.would you want somebody to `nalyse whether or not you were guilty of

:55:02. > :55:06.something at all, way back when And I said to the Minister. He lade a

:55:07. > :55:09.very good argument to say ldt's will work together but the way to work

:55:10. > :55:13.together is to agree to the bill, and then let's will go to committee

:55:14. > :55:19.and if there are things that need to be that right, let's put thdm right.

:55:20. > :55:23.I said to the honourable men becoming the bill is not watertight,

:55:24. > :55:27.let's make it watertight and that is the place to do it in the committee,

:55:28. > :55:31.not by turning our back on this today. And several honourable

:55:32. > :55:37.members have referred to thd fact that this might be called the Turing

:55:38. > :55:46.bill. I don't want to call `t the Turing bill, I want to call it the

:55:47. > :55:54.Cartland McNamara Muirhead Bernays Cazalet bill. At the start of the

:55:55. > :55:58.1930s, there were many MPs `nd politicians in this country, most of

:55:59. > :56:03.them conservative, as it happens, there weren't many Labour MPs in the

:56:04. > :56:07.early 1930s. And many of thdm were convinced that Germany was ` good

:56:08. > :56:13.country, because it had verx liberal attitudes towards homosexuality is.

:56:14. > :56:20.Berlin in the 1930s was a vdry good place for a gay man to live.

:56:21. > :56:37.Jackie McNamara was elected in 935. Another was Ronald Cartland who was

:56:38. > :56:41.elected for Birmingham Kings Norton. They changed their minds whdn they

:56:42. > :56:46.saw what was happening to homosexuals in Germany in the 1 30s.

:56:47. > :56:50.Originally they thought the Versailles Treaty was unfair to

:56:51. > :56:53.Germany, they thought it should be overturned and Germany should be

:56:54. > :57:01.able to re-militarise the Rhineland and should change its futurd. In

:57:02. > :57:02.1936, Jack McNamara visited the Rhineland to support the relote

:57:03. > :57:09.reservation of the Rhineland. When reservation of the Rhineland. When

:57:10. > :57:15.he was there he accidentallx, he said, visited a concentration camp.

:57:16. > :57:21.It was Dakar, the only one who existed at the time. The people in

:57:22. > :57:24.Dachau were dues, the polithcally unwanted and some homosexuals. He

:57:25. > :57:29.sought the violence perpetr`ted against them and when he cale back,

:57:30. > :57:37.he and others became the most sufferers campaigners against

:57:38. > :57:43.appeasement in This House. Jack McNamara, Anthony Meric said he was

:57:44. > :57:51.a junior minister, Victor C`zalet, Harold Nicolson. These were gay or

:57:52. > :57:56.bisexual. They campaigned vociferously in this chamber and

:57:57. > :58:01.around, they campaigned agahnst GB at him. Jack McNamara made ` speech

:58:02. > :58:05.about the bidding and was spat at when he went to a bar and hd never

:58:06. > :58:13.went back. They campaigned `gainst it. Ronald Cartland was probably the

:58:14. > :58:17.most courageous in the Munich debates, saying it was terrhble that

:58:18. > :58:26.we should capitulate and appease Hitler. What did the governlent do?

:58:27. > :58:31., they called them the glamour boys. They got newspapers to ask why were

:58:32. > :58:34.they still not married, why were the bachelors? They had their tdlephones

:58:35. > :58:38.tapped, they had them followed and when they made speeches thex

:58:39. > :58:42.threatened them with deselection. Yet, they persisted. It is ly very

:58:43. > :58:48.strong belief that had it not been for those gay men he would never

:58:49. > :58:53.have faced down Hitler and we would not enjoy today the freedoms that we

:58:54. > :59:01.do. I mention some of the n`mes because they have got Shields up in

:59:02. > :59:04.the chamber. Jack McNamara desperately wanted to fight in the

:59:05. > :59:10.Second World War because he said I have argued for this war, I should

:59:11. > :59:14.fight. Churchill didn't want to He wanted, although he had been in the

:59:15. > :59:20.Army before, he wanted him to serve in some capacity on home front and

:59:21. > :59:23.not overseas. He got his mother juridically Churchill month after

:59:24. > :59:31.month after month until he was given a posting in the Adriatic and he

:59:32. > :59:37.sought service. He was killdd when the Germans bombarded him and his

:59:38. > :59:41.troops in Italy. Ronald Cartland was disabled and he failed his first

:59:42. > :59:48.medical test but he managed to persuade someone to draft another

:59:49. > :59:58.one and he was drafted and he was sent to France in early 1940. He and

:59:59. > :00:03.his troops were holding the four in the triangle between Calais and

:00:04. > :00:05.Dunkirk. He was one of the last people out of the Fort. Thex kept on

:00:06. > :00:09.for four more days than thex should for four more days than thex should

:00:10. > :00:13.have done for their protecthon so thousands more British troops could

:00:14. > :00:16.escape from Dunkirk and Cal`is. It is one of the few terms of the

:00:17. > :00:21.commando officer in the British Armed Forces said every man for

:00:22. > :00:28.himself as they left. He was killed on the route back to Dunkirk.

:00:29. > :00:33.Anthony Muirhead, his plaqud is up there. He committed suicide just

:00:34. > :00:38.after the war started. It is often said he committed suicide bdcause he

:00:39. > :00:43.wasn't able to fight. I suspect it was because the newspapers were

:00:44. > :00:47.pursuing him about his priv`te life. Robert Bernays, the Liberal MP for

:00:48. > :00:53.Bristol North, he was killed in a plane crash over the Adriathc.

:00:54. > :00:58.Again, in military service. Victor Cazalet died in an air crash. He

:00:59. > :01:07.became a close friend of thd free polls and died in an air cr`sh. I

:01:08. > :01:15.just say that we as a country go not just to those people, but to so many

:01:16. > :01:22.other men something that fedls like an apology to stop that really says

:01:23. > :01:26.I am sorry we got this wrong. You were brave, courageous men. We got

:01:27. > :01:36.it wrong, you were right. Wd owe you a debt of gratitude. It is `

:01:37. > :01:41.pleasure to follow the honotrable member. As a former strict

:01:42. > :01:53.Conservative we appear to h`ve been on how the journey together. No one

:01:54. > :01:57.can doubt from the QC made from Bill, on the narrow point hd made

:01:58. > :02:02.about the Bill, I entirely `gree with them and want to come back to

:02:03. > :02:06.that in the course of my own remarks. The emotion with which he

:02:07. > :02:10.presented his case was more than exemplified by the honourable member

:02:11. > :02:14.for East Dunbartonshire whose speech was his usual brilliant itsdlf as

:02:15. > :02:19.one would expect. It would debating champion when I first ran across as

:02:20. > :02:28.president of the Durham Uni society a horribly long time ago. It was but

:02:29. > :02:31.powerful and emotional and he, like the honourable member for the

:02:32. > :02:38.Rhondda, introduced the widdr background to this and why this

:02:39. > :02:44.matters so much. Particularly to the LGBT community. Ten to the narrow

:02:45. > :02:50.issue of the Bill, which I will confine my remarks to. The royal

:02:51. > :02:55.pardon given to Doctor Alan Turing in December 2013 was widely welcomed

:02:56. > :02:59.as helping to put right the injustices suffered by being

:03:00. > :03:03.convicted for gross indecency in 1952 and the subsequent physical and

:03:04. > :03:09.emotional damage insured thd chemical castration then le`ding to

:03:10. > :03:12.his suicide. It is true that this posthumous pardon change thd

:03:13. > :03:19.precedent for the exercise of the royal prerogative of mercy. As the

:03:20. > :03:23.government of the day then stated, a pardon is only granted when the

:03:24. > :03:27.person is innocent of the offence and where a request has been made by

:03:28. > :03:32.someone with a vested interdst such as a family member. Uniquelx, on

:03:33. > :03:35.this occasion, a pardon has been issued without either requirement

:03:36. > :03:42.being met, reflecting the exceptional nature of Alan Turing's

:03:43. > :03:47.achievements. Touring the Alan Turing was, to which we shotld

:03:48. > :03:52.continue to pay tribute, thd wrongs done to thousands of gay men which

:03:53. > :03:58.we recognise today as human rights abuses are no less in need of being

:03:59. > :04:04.corrected. The hurt and pain and injustice is no different for all

:04:05. > :04:11.these people. The exception holiday of Alan Turing's pardon can not

:04:12. > :04:16.hold. As a Justice minister, holding my honourable friend 's

:04:17. > :04:23.responsibilities some five xears ago, I held the government line

:04:24. > :04:30.against granting a pardon to Alan Turing in a debate in Westmhnster

:04:31. > :04:36.Hall and I made the wider point By that time the government believed it

:04:37. > :04:49.had dealt with the practical issues around it is regards in the

:04:50. > :04:54.protection of freedom Act in 20 2. On the pardon point, I been said, to

:04:55. > :04:58.grant him, Alan Turing, a p`rdon under the royal prerogative would

:04:59. > :05:02.change the bases on which stch pardons are normally given. If Alan

:05:03. > :05:06.Turing were pardoned, there would be tens of thousands of other people in

:05:07. > :05:11.respect of whom demands for like treatment could be made. Those

:05:12. > :05:15.persons include about 16,000 living individuals with convictions from

:05:16. > :05:22.sexuality and many times th`t number of deceased victims. This Bhll would

:05:23. > :05:28.simply fulfil that the logic of the arguments I presented in 2002 and in

:05:29. > :05:32.doing so make the same gesttre on the part of society today through an

:05:33. > :05:39.Act of Parliament to the thousands of men deserving of it. The

:05:40. > :05:44.government announced yesterday that it would support an amendment to the

:05:45. > :05:48.protection of freedoms Act 2012 through amendment to the policing

:05:49. > :05:53.and crime Bill and this would extend a pardon to those, for the living,

:05:54. > :05:58.in cases where offences havd been deleted through the disregard

:05:59. > :06:02.process. What a welcome step, this approach ties the pardon to the

:06:03. > :06:06.process of disregarding convictions from criminal records which already

:06:07. > :06:11.exist and would be extended by clause three of this Bill. There

:06:12. > :06:21.need not be such a link. Thd government can be more generous It

:06:22. > :06:26.can make a distinction betwden the powerful, symbolic effect of the

:06:27. > :06:30.general pardon to men, some live, many dead and the mechanism by which

:06:31. > :06:35.individuals can benefit frol the practical effects of a pardon

:06:36. > :06:39.through the disregard process. This, therefore, would ensure that the

:06:40. > :06:43.criminal offences which rem`in criminal offences are not included

:06:44. > :06:48.in any practical consequencds of this pardon. However, this

:06:49. > :06:53.discussion, can and should be a matter for committed discussion

:06:54. > :06:58.Ministers will present a different view and different concerns, but I

:06:59. > :07:02.believe that discussion shotld be had at the committee stage of this

:07:03. > :07:06.Bill and if the government hs not satisfied with the discussion in

:07:07. > :07:11.committee then, of course, the Bill will not make progress toward being

:07:12. > :07:15.an actor. I assume the sponsor of the Bill is pleased that thd

:07:16. > :07:21.government has at least movdd some of the way in its proposal `nd even

:07:22. > :07:26.if it were not to move further, I would argue that this Bill hs a

:07:27. > :07:30.better vehicle for the Sharkey amendment than a rather anonymous

:07:31. > :07:36.amendment within the latest policing and crime Bill which rule of the

:07:37. > :07:40.statute book year after year and wouldn't have the symbolic dffect

:07:41. > :07:47.that this Act of Parliament would have. This is the point, I believe,

:07:48. > :07:53.this Bill and our debate is at least as much about symbolic resthtution

:07:54. > :07:56.and a rating of wrongs as of process. The measures adoptdd,

:07:57. > :08:00.whether the narrower version currently favoured by the

:08:01. > :08:07.government, or the product `pproach in this Bill as it is today, would

:08:08. > :08:14.stand a much better as a sylbol in a stand alone Act and I hope ` way can

:08:15. > :08:17.be found to use the honourable member for East Dunbartonshhre's

:08:18. > :08:21.Bill as the vehicle by which we can make this clear statement of

:08:22. > :08:33.two-day's values of two-day's parliament. It is always a pleasure

:08:34. > :08:37.to star in another episode of carry on up the Commons which is what it

:08:38. > :08:41.has been like in here this lorning. What a pleasure it is to follow my

:08:42. > :08:46.honourable friend from East Dunbartonshire. Don't call them that

:08:47. > :08:50.to about the conventions of the House, I say it because he hs both

:08:51. > :08:55.honourable and a true friend. What a piece of legislation he has brought

:08:56. > :09:01.to the House. The first SNP Private members Bill. Historic moment.

:09:02. > :09:09.Although he doesn't wish to present it as such and I would agred with

:09:10. > :09:14.that. In his remarks he tells of his time with Edwina Currie in

:09:15. > :09:18.Amsterdam. I would urge all members when you get a chance outset of this

:09:19. > :09:23.chamber to ask about the store that is disappearing up the stairs. From

:09:24. > :09:29.a room with very few lights I seem to remember him telling it. I will

:09:30. > :09:33.leave them to develop that further. When he was called to introduce the

:09:34. > :09:40.Bill, top of the ballot, I confessed to just a tiny bit of seethhng

:09:41. > :09:46.jealousy on that morning. As I opened my Twitter account on my iPod

:09:47. > :09:50.to see him number one on thd ballot, because this is the Bill, h`d it

:09:51. > :09:54.been myself, that I would whsh to have introduced and we had several

:09:55. > :10:01.conversations about different ideas that he had and this was thd one he

:10:02. > :10:07.chose to bring to the House. I think he is to be enormously congratulated

:10:08. > :10:13.for it. What a forensic spedch from the honourable gentleman from the

:10:14. > :10:19.Rhondda. Historical. Referrhng to the shields of previous honourable

:10:20. > :10:24.members in This House. He is to be thanked because we are bettdr

:10:25. > :10:28.informed as a result of his remarks. Mr Deputy Speaker, I want to share

:10:29. > :10:36.one or two stories from constituents of mine who I won't name. One of

:10:37. > :10:41.them is actually quite well known in left-wing circles in Scottish

:10:42. > :10:47.politics. It concerns when there was a time when there was no LGBT

:10:48. > :10:53.centres, no gay bars, the places the gay community could go and socialise

:10:54. > :11:00.so it often meant they had to do so at

:11:01. > :11:08.And he told me a story about one flat in particular in Rutherford,

:11:09. > :11:14.one flat that became the pl`ce to go to. The honourable member for

:11:15. > :11:18.Rutherford claimed she was hn there from a sedentary position. This was

:11:19. > :11:21.in the 1960s, Mr Deputy Spe`ker and the neighbours at the time had

:11:22. > :11:27.cottoned on to the fact that there were these devious homosexu`l men

:11:28. > :11:32.and women having a party. I should break it to some people that when we

:11:33. > :11:37.homosexuals have a party, it's just like any other party, only luch more

:11:38. > :11:43.fun. LAUGHTER And at this party, there wotld be

:11:44. > :11:48.music, laughter, gossip, dancing, singing, perhaps even a wee drink or

:11:49. > :11:51.two. And when the neighbours had cottoned on that this flat was full

:11:52. > :12:00.of homosexuals, they would call the police. And the police would visit

:12:01. > :12:05.the flat, no crime having bden committed, no anti-social bdhaviour,

:12:06. > :12:08.the police would visit the flat and hit the names and addresses of every

:12:09. > :12:16.person there, asking why thdy were there, intimidating them. And my

:12:17. > :12:19.constituent decided, when hd saw the police were coming up the stairs,

:12:20. > :12:22.that he wasn't going to stax in the room but he couldn't exactlx leave

:12:23. > :12:31.the front door, so he deciddd to hang out the window from thd second

:12:32. > :12:35.story of a Glasgow tenement, putting himself in clear danger of not just

:12:36. > :12:40.injuring himself but perhaps losing his life. Until his arms cotld take

:12:41. > :12:47.no further, he crawled into the window and to give a statemdnt to

:12:48. > :12:50.the police. Such is the ingdnuity of good Glaswegians, they thought

:12:51. > :12:54.themselves should this ever happen again, we need to have a pl`n, we

:12:55. > :13:01.need to have a plan if the police turn up again, so they decided, I

:13:02. > :13:06.would say borrow rather than steel, the choir books from the Rutherford

:13:07. > :13:10.Parish church so that if thd police were to come back, the music could

:13:11. > :13:14.be switched off, the drink could be put away, and all they would be

:13:15. > :13:21.confronted with would be thd Rutherford Parish church choir

:13:22. > :13:27.singing come by and whatever other hymns they fancy. You haven't been

:13:28. > :13:32.to church for a while, have you LAUGHTER

:13:33. > :13:39.I should say that God is always surprised to see me when I `ttend

:13:40. > :13:44.prayers in this house. And, Mr Deputy Speaker, although we laugh,

:13:45. > :13:49.that is what people were gohng through, and much, much worse has

:13:50. > :13:57.been brought to the house bx other members. And things moved on. Things

:13:58. > :14:04.have moved on remarkably. Btt even through the 1980s, friends of mine

:14:05. > :14:08.talk about going to Pride p`rades in London, where the streets would be

:14:09. > :14:18.lined with police as though it were some kind of violent protest they

:14:19. > :14:21.were expecting. And in a magnificent act of defiance, a friend of mine

:14:22. > :14:27.tied a pink balloon to the strap of his bag so that as he walked on his

:14:28. > :14:31.first gay pride march, it would bounce off the noses of the police

:14:32. > :14:39.officers as he marched down the street. And look at us now. Out

:14:40. > :14:41.proud. There isn't a member certainly on these benches, that

:14:42. > :14:48.isn't desperate to be assochated with the progress, as far as gay

:14:49. > :14:53.rights is concerned. It is now very popular to be in favour of dquality

:14:54. > :14:58.but it didn't used to be popular. What the bill six to do, thd

:14:59. > :15:03.government is not doing this as a favour, not doing the peopld in

:15:04. > :15:07.favour but doing this. The full marriage wasn't a favour. The

:15:08. > :15:14.quality of adoption rights was not a favour. It is about correcthng our

:15:15. > :15:20.mistakes of the past. Mr Deputy Speaker, imagine you are a xoung

:15:21. > :15:26.person, thinking of coming out, and at six o'clock U-turn on yotr iPad,

:15:27. > :15:31.and across Europe twitter thmeline comes the story of how todax's vote

:15:32. > :15:36.goes. Imagine the house declined the opportunity to pass this bill, how

:15:37. > :15:40.would that make you feel, what signal does it send to young people

:15:41. > :15:51.across this country and arotnd the world, if we decline to pass this

:15:52. > :15:57.bill just now? One young man to another. A gay man to a str`ight

:15:58. > :16:05.man. LAUGHTER Who's who? Especially the colour

:16:06. > :16:08.scheme. The point my honour`ble friend was making is the message

:16:09. > :16:14.coming from some and other benches, the fact that living homosexuals

:16:15. > :16:18.could still be classed as a risk of being a paedophile, and that is the

:16:19. > :16:24.message that if we reject this bill and make homosexuals go through the

:16:25. > :16:30.disregard process. He makes a very good point. I should clarifx Mr

:16:31. > :16:37.Deputy Speaker and I am a g`y man. I would never have that clash of a

:16:38. > :16:44.yellow LAN yard and a purpld tie! LAUGHTER

:16:45. > :17:00.Mr Deputy Speaker, I wish to come to a conclusion. The people who went

:17:01. > :17:04.through, the 16,000 people that the chair of the foreign affairs select

:17:05. > :17:12.committee mentions, these are the Giants on whose shoulders wd stand,

:17:13. > :17:16.and many, many others. And what an opportunity we have today to do the

:17:17. > :17:22.right thing. And symbolism hs important in this. Rather than some

:17:23. > :17:27.anonymous technical amendment in that place down there, which is even

:17:28. > :17:31.more camp than this place down here, rather than that, a bill is

:17:32. > :17:35.important, and where there `re concerns, genuine or otherwhse, it

:17:36. > :17:41.has to be said, then the colmittee is the place to strengthen the bill.

:17:42. > :17:48.Otherwise what is this placd for? A question I find myself asking quite

:17:49. > :17:54.a lot actually. Mr Deputy Speaker, what I think we all want today is

:17:55. > :18:00.for young people to read about this debate, watch this debate, `nd see

:18:01. > :18:09.it pass, a strong and posithve message, that it is indeed OK to be

:18:10. > :18:13.gay. Nick Herbert. Thank yot very much Mr Deputy Speaker, I understand

:18:14. > :18:18.that an urgent question may be tabled at 11 o'clock so I whll

:18:19. > :18:22.endeavour to be brief so th`t my remarks don't become truncated. What

:18:23. > :18:24.I would first of all like to do is to congratulate the honourable

:18:25. > :18:28.member for East Dumbartonshhre for bringing forward this measure, and

:18:29. > :18:37.for the remarks he made, and for his excellent speech in support of his

:18:38. > :18:43.bill. And the welcome what he has sought to do. It seems to md that

:18:44. > :18:50.there is a general agreement in this house that great injustice was done

:18:51. > :18:56.by laws which have since bedn repealed to gay men in the past and

:18:57. > :19:00.that there is a great deal, a huge measure of regret for that

:19:01. > :19:03.injustice, and a recognition that there are people who are sthll alive

:19:04. > :19:09.who have suffered as a consdquence of that injustice. Further to that,

:19:10. > :19:14.I think that there is a bro`d agreement, though it might not be

:19:15. > :19:21.unanimous agreement, that it is right that not only should that

:19:22. > :19:27.legislation have been repealed, in many cases some time ago, btt that

:19:28. > :19:34.this house and the government should go further, and should extend a

:19:35. > :19:37.pardon to those who were convicted of offences that we now belheve

:19:38. > :19:44.should not have been crimin`l offences, because of the enormous

:19:45. > :19:47.injustice that was done to them There is, it seems to me, no

:19:48. > :19:53.disagreement between the benches opposite government about that

:19:54. > :19:57.either. Nor with many of us on this side of the house who believe that

:19:58. > :20:04.it is right in principle th`t such a pardon should be extended. H recall

:20:05. > :20:07.being a minister in the Minhstry of Justice, along with my friend, the

:20:08. > :20:13.member for Reigate at the thme when we were discussing the inithal

:20:14. > :20:18.proposal that a specific pardon should be granted to Alan Ttring,

:20:19. > :20:22.and we had those discussions with my right honourable member, thd member

:20:23. > :20:26.for Rushcliffe, who was then the Justice Secretary. One can hardly

:20:27. > :20:34.imagine a more humane or liberal member of Parliament than mx right

:20:35. > :20:38.honourable friend, but he h`d then concerns about what the further

:20:39. > :20:42.application of the principld that we might be about to embark on would

:20:43. > :20:46.be. I think those were legitimate concerns, and I think there is a

:20:47. > :20:51.legitimate debate about the extent to which it is possible to dmbark on

:20:52. > :20:56.a process of revisionism, stch that we find ourselves in a position of

:20:57. > :21:03.extending a general apology or pardon for all sorts of criles that

:21:04. > :21:06.may have been committed a while ago, and the legislation that was enacted

:21:07. > :21:14.before our time. But I think that honourable members on both sides of

:21:15. > :21:20.the house have spoken with passion about why it is important that we

:21:21. > :21:26.should take an attitude that says that there should be a sign`l or an

:21:27. > :21:30.expression of regret. It is clearly important for the living th`t the

:21:31. > :21:38.state recognises the injusthce that was done. But it is important to a

:21:39. > :21:41.Brodic unity, and the honourable member for Rhondda spoke powerfully

:21:42. > :21:47.about that the honourable mdmber for Glasgow too. It is important,

:21:48. > :21:53.because in spite of the near completion of the legislative agenda

:21:54. > :22:01.in this country at least, to ensure full equality for gay peopld, there

:22:02. > :22:04.is still discrimination in our society, and in particular hn our

:22:05. > :22:10.schools. There are young people who face prejudice and concern `bout the

:22:11. > :22:15.fact that they may not be accepted in our society. And therefore the

:22:16. > :22:18.signals which this house sends, which the government sends, are

:22:19. > :22:23.immensely important. Now I would like to make an additional point,

:22:24. > :22:28.which is that there is also the question of the signal we sdnd more

:22:29. > :22:30.widely to the rest of the world I'm honoured to be the elected chairman

:22:31. > :22:36.of the all-party Parliament`ry group on global LGBT writes, and the

:22:37. > :22:42.honourable gentleman to Glasgow South is an officer of that group

:22:43. > :22:47.too. And we are focused on the appalling breaches of human rights

:22:48. > :22:50.which are increasingly being perpetrated in other countrhes

:22:51. > :22:53.around the world, where acttally human rights are going backwards and

:22:54. > :22:58.not forwards, where gay people are living and working in fear hn

:22:59. > :23:04.countries for instance in stb Saharan Africa, in Russia and other

:23:05. > :23:10.countries in Eastern Europe, and where progress needs to be lade to

:23:11. > :23:15.secure equality and respect for human rights. And one of thd things

:23:16. > :23:21.that we are often told, and indeed those people who are victimhsed by

:23:22. > :23:27.these laws are often told is that these are laws that historically

:23:28. > :23:32.over their origin to this place To laws, which were fashioned `nd

:23:33. > :23:38.promoted eye this Parliament as part of our empire. I give way to the

:23:39. > :23:43.honourable lady. But is that not why it is so utterly important that this

:23:44. > :23:49.bill goes through in its own right, to send out that message and not

:23:50. > :23:54.just a few lines of an amendment? The honourable lady has anthcipated

:23:55. > :23:59.what I am about to say. I w`s explaining that I believe it is

:24:00. > :24:06.important that this house sdnds the right signal with a general pardon,

:24:07. > :24:09.because of the effect on thd living, because of those to whom an

:24:10. > :24:13.injustice has been done, because of the way in which young people in

:24:14. > :24:18.particular may anticipate how they will be treated, and becausd of the

:24:19. > :24:21.signal that we may send globally about the importance of standing up

:24:22. > :24:26.for human rights. Of course I give way to the Minister. I thank the

:24:27. > :24:30.honourable member forgiving way the amendment that will be tabldd is not

:24:31. > :24:36.just a few lines in a bill. Lord Sharkey is one of the most prominent

:24:37. > :24:40.campaigners on this issue, has been campaigning for a long time, and the

:24:41. > :24:45.announcement yesterday has `lready garnered global headlines and will

:24:46. > :24:52.continue to do so when the `mendment has passed. I had said I hope to

:24:53. > :24:59.complete my remarks by 11 o'clock and I can now see that is not going

:25:00. > :25:03.to be possible, because what I want to say about the government's

:25:04. > :25:07.position and position of my honourable friend is I think

:25:08. > :25:13.important, and it is import`nt that we get a resolution to this matter.

:25:14. > :25:16.Whatever the history of the last few days, it seems to me, and this was

:25:17. > :25:24.the point I was trying to m`ke at the beginning of my remarks, that

:25:25. > :25:27.there is a broad agreement `bout the necessity of this measure, the value

:25:28. > :25:30.of it, and the importance of proceeding. And indeed therd is a

:25:31. > :25:36.Conservative manifesto commhtment to do so. And after I resume, `s I hope

:25:37. > :25:39.Mr Deputy Speaker I will be able to do, I would like to explain why I

:25:40. > :25:46.therefore believe the bill should be allowed through to a second reading.

:25:47. > :25:53.Order, order, we are now gohng to come to the urgent question from

:25:54. > :25:58.Philip Davies. I will ask the Immigration Minister who will make a

:25:59. > :25:59.statement on what age checks will be carried out on child refugeds to

:26:00. > :26:13.ensure that they are childrdn. I welcome this opportunity to put on

:26:14. > :26:15.record at the government position. We work closely with French

:26:16. > :26:22.authorities to ensure the c`ses applying to come to the UK pualify

:26:23. > :26:26.under Dublin. This includes an age assessment were necessary. @ll

:26:27. > :26:32.individuals are referred to the UK authorities by the French

:26:33. > :26:36.authorities, they are then interviewed by French and UK

:26:37. > :26:41.officials. Were credible documentary evidence of age is not available and

:26:42. > :26:46.where these children have fled war and persecution so there ard no

:26:47. > :26:50.definitive documentary provds, we will use criteria including physical

:26:51. > :26:55.appearance and demeanour to assess age as part of the interview

:26:56. > :27:00.process. But officials are working in difficult circumstances hn Calais

:27:01. > :27:03.to ensure vulnerable childrdn are safeguarded. There has been

:27:04. > :27:07.significant media coverage over the last week questioning the appearance

:27:08. > :27:14.of those admitted to the UK. I think we would all agree that teenagers

:27:15. > :27:16.appearances are very widely and all agencies working in these

:27:17. > :27:21.circumstances have the safety and welfare of young people in lind

:27:22. > :27:25.This week has also reopened the old debate about the value of ddntal

:27:26. > :27:30.x-rays at medical tests to determine the age of an individual. Is a good

:27:31. > :27:34.different number of experts have spoken out against such checks. The

:27:35. > :27:39.British dental Association has described them as inaccuratd,

:27:40. > :27:42.inappropriate and unethical. The Royal College of paediatrichans said

:27:43. > :27:48.the margin of error can somdtimes be as much as five years either side of

:27:49. > :27:55.medical tests. Doctors of the world have called the idea unethical and

:27:56. > :27:58.unnecessary. That is why thd Home Office does not use dental x-rays to

:27:59. > :28:03.confront age of those seeking asylum. Legally cannot forcd anyone

:28:04. > :28:06.to undergo such a check. Th`t is what officials are trained to assess

:28:07. > :28:12.age and I want to be clear, where we believe someone is clearly over a

:28:13. > :28:16.pain they will be refused. The information I have today suggests

:28:17. > :28:21.that around 10% of cases referred to as on the spaces are being refused

:28:22. > :28:25.in France. We have made significant progress to bring to the UK bus

:28:26. > :28:29.children with family members. We are determined to get those children

:28:30. > :28:32.here, but I call on all members of the House, the media and thd public

:28:33. > :28:39.to respect the privacy of those vulnerable young people. I `m

:28:40. > :28:44.grateful to the Minister for whom I have a great deal of respect and

:28:45. > :28:49.admiration. Surely he cannot find it necessary to explain why it is

:28:50. > :28:52.important that Chad refugees are actually children. We agreed to

:28:53. > :28:55.check in Chad refugees and surely it is not too much to ask the

:28:56. > :29:01.government to ensure that they are children. Clearly this is not the

:29:02. > :29:05.case. People only have two CD pictures of the so-called child

:29:06. > :29:12.refugees to say that many of them are not children. The Home Office

:29:13. > :29:18.admitted that two thirds of people claiming to be child refugeds are

:29:19. > :29:30.shown to be not children. Even the charities have had to accept this,

:29:31. > :29:36.trying to explain. A large number of my constituents have contacted me to

:29:37. > :29:41.say how angry they are that we are being taken for the rulers, taken

:29:42. > :29:45.for a ride and our generosity is being abused. Does the Minister not

:29:46. > :29:49.understand that unless a grhp is taken over this but it will do

:29:50. > :29:53.irreparable damage to public confidence in the asylum system The

:29:54. > :29:58.Minister said that to carry out dental checks would not onlx be

:29:59. > :30:03.unethical but also unreliable. It actually says on the governlent

:30:04. > :30:08.website under the UK visas `nd immigration section on assessing

:30:09. > :30:13.age, it has a section on dental age assessments or x-ray reports. It

:30:14. > :30:17.says, in some instances, applicants will submit reports from dental

:30:18. > :30:21.consultants based on a detahled report of dental development. The

:30:22. > :30:26.margin of error indeterminate age is approximately plus or -2 ye`rs. They

:30:27. > :30:33.put The Royal College of paddiatrics and child health. It says this means

:30:34. > :30:38.there will be cases where stch reports should be given considerable

:30:39. > :30:42.weight, for example, becausd the Clinton age is within the possible

:30:43. > :30:46.range. The Home Office are `lready sent on their website that dental

:30:47. > :30:58.checks should be given conshderable weight. How on earth can thdy be

:30:59. > :31:03.unreliable on an ethical st`ndard. What checks are being made by the

:31:04. > :31:08.government and if somebody claims to be 14 did we just accept it and send

:31:09. > :31:11.them to a local school with all the obvious safeguarding issues that

:31:12. > :31:15.would be involved if they wdre actually adults? The governlent owes

:31:16. > :31:23.the British public and genuhne child refugees a promise to get a grip on

:31:24. > :31:28.this particular situation. Ly honourable friend needs to be aware

:31:29. > :31:36.that both the Dublin regulation and section 67 of the immigration Act

:31:37. > :31:40.2016 defines children as those under the age of 18. Indeed, a large

:31:41. > :31:46.number of those in the camps are both male and 16 or 17 years old. We

:31:47. > :31:51.have never tried to mislead anyone of that particular fact. Thd

:31:52. > :31:55.criteria used at this stage for the Dublin children is those with family

:31:56. > :31:59.connections in the UK and those are our priority. Those are the ones

:32:00. > :32:03.being taught across this wedk. For the children will be put across

:32:04. > :32:08.Some of the assessment will enable further work to be done, including

:32:09. > :32:12.fingerprinting. If there ard cases where the person has been brought to

:32:13. > :32:15.the attention of the Europe`n immigration authorities werd applied

:32:16. > :32:20.for a visa somewhere in the world to come to the UK will have further

:32:21. > :32:26.information. Can I point out, the age issue can arise because of Home

:32:27. > :32:29.Office concerns about the claimed age where because of the individual

:32:30. > :32:35.does not accept the assessmdnt process. Word this. There whll be a

:32:36. > :32:38.reference to a children's sdrvices Department for an age assessment.

:32:39. > :32:43.They will be treated as a child by the outcome is worded. Local

:32:44. > :32:48.authorities have a statutorx duty to ensure and promote the welf`re of

:32:49. > :32:51.children under section 11 of the Children Act 2000 for regardless of

:32:52. > :32:55.their immigration status or nationality. This safeguards of the

:32:56. > :32:58.individual is required to undergo an age assessment and super chhldren in

:32:59. > :33:04.the current population from the presence of an adult being placed in

:33:05. > :33:09.the symbolism accommodation. I want to start by welcoming refugdes who

:33:10. > :33:15.have entered Britain in last few days to their new home. I hope that

:33:16. > :33:20.our country will provide thdm with a safe space which enables thdm to put

:33:21. > :33:26.behind them the dramas and the difficulties they have faced.

:33:27. > :33:30.Welcome to Britain. The govdrnment committed to taking unaccompanied

:33:31. > :33:35.child refugees in May. The Home Office have had five months to

:33:36. > :33:39.assess the age of the young people come up five months in which

:33:40. > :33:43.refugees have had to live their lives in limbo and conditions which

:33:44. > :33:48.none of us with like to livd in and certainly not have our children live

:33:49. > :33:51.in. I am sure the Minister can assure the House that this delay is

:33:52. > :34:00.a result of the Home Office carefully assessing the age of young

:34:01. > :34:05.people we are granting to. Durope all have warned that at least 1 ,000

:34:06. > :34:09.unaccompanied child refugees have gone missing since entering Europe

:34:10. > :34:14.after fleeing the most terrhble political situation in Syri` and

:34:15. > :34:20.elsewhere in North Africa and the Middle East. Citizens UK thhnk there

:34:21. > :34:26.are at least 54 unaccompanidd girls, mainly Eritrean, in the calorie

:34:27. > :34:30.count and they are eligible to enter under the dubs amendment. These are

:34:31. > :34:35.children who have had their home, their parents, their entire lives

:34:36. > :34:45.taken away from them and thdy are in real danger. Does the Minister agree

:34:46. > :34:46.with me that our resolve to give sanctuary and protection to

:34:47. > :34:49.unaccompanied child refugees must remain undiminished, we cannot

:34:50. > :34:53.succumb to compassion fatigte? I know some members opposite of

:34:54. > :34:57.conflict dental checks to ddtermine the age of children coming over but

:34:58. > :35:01.the Journal of forensic scidnce found that when it comes to

:35:02. > :35:07.determine if someone is aged between 17 and 19 years of age, dental

:35:08. > :35:13.checks are wrong up to 50% of the time. 50% of the time. The British

:35:14. > :35:17.dental Association, whose mdmbers would presumably have to carry out

:35:18. > :35:21.these checks, has said they would be inappropriate and unethical. Does

:35:22. > :35:26.the Minister agree with me that calling for dental checks is an

:35:27. > :35:32.unworkable red herring? I al pleased that the government are comlitted to

:35:33. > :35:36.helping unaccompanied child refugees and 20,000 Syrian refugees by 2 20,

:35:37. > :35:42.although given the scale of the refugee crisis, we can and should do

:35:43. > :35:46.more. There will be challenges along the way, things will not go

:35:47. > :35:53.perfectly, but helping people in dire need and they are is the right

:35:54. > :35:57.thing to do. When we meet bombs in the road in this place and hn other

:35:58. > :36:02.positions of power, we should keep it calm head and continue to offer a

:36:03. > :36:10.welcoming embrace to those who are fleeing the most desperate of

:36:11. > :36:14.circumstances. The points m`de by the honourable lady oppositd

:36:15. > :36:18.encapsulate the vast majority of the United Kingdom's view about the

:36:19. > :36:22.compassion we need and a legal responsibility to step up to the

:36:23. > :36:27.mark to ensure that vulnerable children in these camps are looked

:36:28. > :36:30.after as best as possible. Ht is in the joint interests of the Tnited

:36:31. > :36:35.Kingdom and the French republic that this cup is removed and in the

:36:36. > :36:38.interest of the people in that camp. I must make it clear that nobody

:36:39. > :36:42.needs to be in that camp. The French have facilities for people who can

:36:43. > :36:48.leave the camp and large nulbers have left the camp. I have covered

:36:49. > :36:52.the point on the dental checks. One additional point I would make and it

:36:53. > :36:57.is something the Milton -- the media have failed to grasp, we have two

:36:58. > :37:02.distinct categories of children We have the Dublin three children, they

:37:03. > :37:07.qualify because they have ftn here. We have prioritised them and then we

:37:08. > :37:11.have children who qualify under the dubs amendment. That is a criteria

:37:12. > :37:14.of where their needs will bd best served and I can assure the House

:37:15. > :37:19.that we will prioritise the most vulnerable. The undertakings, those

:37:20. > :37:24.who are vulnerable for other reasons, to ensure that will happen.

:37:25. > :37:29.They will not process as quhckly. We need to ensure they are safd and

:37:30. > :37:36.ensure we live up to the colmitments this government has made whdn it

:37:37. > :37:39.accepted the dubs amendment. My constituents are very worridd about

:37:40. > :37:44.migrant children. Can buy honourable friend confirm that the Homd Office

:37:45. > :37:51.is working closely with NGOs and the local authorities to identify and

:37:52. > :37:55.resettle children in Cali? The role of NGOs are vital because m`ny of

:37:56. > :38:01.those in the camps don't few people in uniform or people in authority in

:38:02. > :38:09.the same way we do. Those charities, the British Red Cross, who have

:38:10. > :38:12.helped bring children across. They have stepped up to the mark in

:38:13. > :38:17.providing accommodation for children before they are moved on. NGOs are

:38:18. > :38:21.vital and we appreciate the efforts they are making. Working with the UK

:38:22. > :38:27.and French authorities to n`ture with discharge obligations. The Home

:38:28. > :38:34.Office is to be commended for finally moving to process children

:38:35. > :38:40.from the Calle camps, coverdd by our legal obligations. I am verx

:38:41. > :38:44.grateful to the Home Secret`ry for giving me a full update on what has

:38:45. > :38:49.been happening this week and I am proud that many of these chhldren

:38:50. > :38:52.coming from Calais will be welcomed in Scotland and I can assurd the

:38:53. > :39:00.House they will be most welcome there. An update on the numbers

:39:01. > :39:03.being processed would be appreciated and I wonder if the Minister can

:39:04. > :39:10.confirm that will be made available? I have been to these camps `t Calais

:39:11. > :39:15.and I have witnessed the inhumane conditions. To impose invashve

:39:16. > :39:18.treatment now would be a dereliction of UK Government moral duty and I am

:39:19. > :39:22.happy to hear from the ministers that the government is listdning to

:39:23. > :39:24.expert advice and not giving in to the unpleasant pressure he hs

:39:25. > :39:29.receiving from some on his backbenchers. Children at C`lais

:39:30. > :39:34.have come from some of the lost difficult and unsafe parts of the

:39:35. > :39:36.world. In some respects, thd instability from which they have a

:39:37. > :39:43.third has been caused by fidld British foreign policy. Somd of them

:39:44. > :39:48.have, in fact, grown old in the camp waiting to be processed, but that

:39:49. > :39:51.should not be held against them As the Minister said, the definition of

:39:52. > :39:56.a child is under the age of 18 and anyone familiar with childrdn will

:39:57. > :40:03.know that a young man in his teens, under the age of 18, separated from

:40:04. > :40:06.his parents, is a vulnerabld person. Mr Deputy Speaker, I regret that

:40:07. > :40:09.this question and some of the stuff we have seen in the tabloids and

:40:10. > :40:13.some of the behaviour from lembers of the audience in question Time

:40:14. > :40:18.last night is symptomatic of the xenophobia that has arisen hn this

:40:19. > :40:22.country since the referendul. We are united in our condemnation of

:40:23. > :40:26.homophobia. What is the govdrnment doing to quell the rising thde of

:40:27. > :40:30.xenophobia in this country `nd what will the Minister do to challenge

:40:31. > :40:34.for permission in the press and to camp and the doubts about how these

:40:35. > :40:39.children will be treated whdn they arrive here? The children arriving

:40:40. > :40:44.under Dublin three, those whth family here, you would expect the

:40:45. > :40:48.age profile of those to reflect the overall age profile in the camp

:40:49. > :40:53.which is older children in lany ways, but under Dublin we are

:40:54. > :40:58.looking to encourage the most vulnerable to come forward `nd that

:40:59. > :41:04.would be the younger childrdn. If I could give an update on our progress

:41:05. > :41:07.under the Dublin regulation, over 140 unaccompanied asylum sedking

:41:08. > :41:11.children have come from Europe and been accepted for transfer to the UK

:41:12. > :41:22.under the family reunion provisions, of which 80 are from France.

:41:23. > :41:35.Can I join her in condemning any xenophobia, that is not somdthing in

:41:36. > :41:40.the British or the Scottish psyche. It is to be condemned right across

:41:41. > :41:43.the house. Mr Deputy Speaker can the Minister confirm what specific

:41:44. > :41:48.actions are being taken by the UK and French security forces to stop

:41:49. > :41:56.criminal gangs from exploithng vulnerable people, in particular

:41:57. > :42:00.children, in Calais? It is certainly a matter of great concern, people

:42:01. > :42:03.traffickers are in these calps. The best way to curtail the acthons of

:42:04. > :42:06.these people is to dismantld the camp and dispersed the people around

:42:07. > :42:12.the country where they are less able to be targeted. I am pleased that

:42:13. > :42:15.the Home Office working with our French counterparts have made a

:42:16. > :42:18.number of successes, in terls of arrest, where people trafficking is

:42:19. > :42:24.going on, and that is something that will continue to keep the pressure

:42:25. > :42:28.up on. My constituent Norman that has sent me an extract this morning

:42:29. > :42:32.from the British medical Jotrnal which says, and I quote, medical

:42:33. > :42:36.estimation of age is still inaccurate and the results `re on

:42:37. > :42:40.arrival, and said age variations have standard deviations of more

:42:41. > :42:45.than 12 months and limited by discrepancies, racial discrdpancies

:42:46. > :42:51.and concluding ethically it is hard to justify treating someone as an

:42:52. > :42:54.adult based on such unreliable data. Does the Minister agree? Thd

:42:55. > :42:59.honourable gentleman is absolutely right. All the August medic`l bodies

:43:00. > :43:04.I quoted, dental bodies I qtoted, made it clear that you cannot use

:43:05. > :43:07.medical or dental evidence `s a way of determining age, and indded my

:43:08. > :43:13.own wisdom teeth didn't comd down until quite late in life. In many

:43:14. > :43:16.cases, these young people h`ve not enjoy the same levels of nutrition

:43:17. > :43:21.we have, so once again their stages of growth may vary. So I wotld

:43:22. > :43:26.underline the fact that all of the evidence indicates you cannot use

:43:27. > :43:34.this method. If a determination of age is necessary, there is ` process

:43:35. > :43:38.with two social workers, it takes about 28 days, and that method is

:43:39. > :43:41.used by social services offdred on a country, that cannot be dond in the

:43:42. > :43:47.timescales. Even if we could do it on French territory. I welcome the

:43:48. > :43:53.comments the Minister has m`de so far. What will be in the public s

:43:54. > :43:56.mind is what they are seeing in the media against what we are sdeing

:43:57. > :44:02.today. What work is the Homd Office going to do to try to reasstre the

:44:03. > :44:05.public about those we are hopping? Certainly we have all seen the

:44:06. > :44:09.pictures from the camps, -- those we are helping. The pictures from the

:44:10. > :44:13.camps and the terrible condhtions both young people and adults are

:44:14. > :44:19.having to India. I know that the wishes of the vast majority of the

:44:20. > :44:24.British people is to ensure that if we do have the responsible T, then

:44:25. > :44:30.we should actually step up to the mark and ensure that those children

:44:31. > :44:32.are brought to a place of s`fety in the UK and working with French

:44:33. > :44:37.colleagues, that is what we intend to do. I also welcome the comments

:44:38. > :44:41.of Minister. In response to a question that shows not onlx a lack

:44:42. > :44:43.of compassion but a fundamental lack of understanding of the fact that

:44:44. > :44:47.these young people have had to grow up beyond their years because they

:44:48. > :44:51.are children who have had their childhood Rob from them and have to

:44:52. > :44:53.fend for themselves. I asked the minister if you would agree with me

:44:54. > :44:57.on that point and also if the Minister can do everything he

:44:58. > :45:03.possibly can in this departlent to ensure that these children do not

:45:04. > :45:12.grow old waiting to be procdssed. Certainly the previous Dublhn

:45:13. > :45:16.process did take some weeks, but given the timescale of the projected

:45:17. > :45:19.clearance, it is important that we have actually accelerate th`t

:45:20. > :45:23.process to make sure the chhldren can be processed and I am pleased we

:45:24. > :45:26.are doing that. Can I pay tribute to our Home Office staff who h`ve been

:45:27. > :45:32.there in very difficult conditions to deliver that promise. Can my

:45:33. > :45:35.right honourable friend ple`se explain to the house the process by

:45:36. > :45:41.which the government works with the Italian, French, Greek governance,

:45:42. > :45:47.as well as NGOs, to identifx and speed up the process of bringing in

:45:48. > :45:54.child refugees when it is in their best interest? The Dublin process is

:45:55. > :46:01.relatively simple. It isn't just children who may -- has intdrest may

:46:02. > :46:04.be best served within the UK, it applies to all European famhlies and

:46:05. > :46:10.a number of transfers have taken place. Thank you very much Lr Deputy

:46:11. > :46:14.Speaker. The media circus over the past few days has not just been

:46:15. > :46:18.distasteful, it has been downright dangerous, and the media exposure

:46:19. > :46:22.will serve to further fanned the flames of intolerance, and hs

:46:23. > :46:28.massively irresponsible at ` time of raising hate crime in England. What

:46:29. > :46:30.exactly is the Home Office doing to protect the identities of vtlnerable

:46:31. > :46:37.refugees and in particular child refugees? Certainly there wdre some

:46:38. > :46:41.pictures in the press of chhldren with blanket over their head, which

:46:42. > :46:46.was specifically to protect their identity as children. I havd

:46:47. > :46:50.confidence in the British pdople, in their compassion and their wish to

:46:51. > :46:54.support us in what we are doing and I think a small minority either in

:46:55. > :46:59.the media or noises off shotld not be listened to. Can I pay tribute to

:47:00. > :47:02.my honourable friend and his department and all the work he is

:47:03. > :47:06.doing to help those most vulnerable children but I was just wondering if

:47:07. > :47:08.you could update the house on what this government has offered

:47:09. > :47:16.assistance to the French government to clear the camp at Calais? We are

:47:17. > :47:21.working very closely with the French government, and where resources are

:47:22. > :47:24.needed, we are ensuring we can help wherever we can. My right honourable

:47:25. > :47:27.friend the Home Secretary h`s met with her opposite number on a number

:47:28. > :47:30.of occasions. We are working very closely with the French. It is in

:47:31. > :47:35.our common interest to ensure that that camp is cleared, not jtst

:47:36. > :47:40.because of the people there that because of the pull factor of people

:47:41. > :47:45.who may be thinking about m`king that dangerous journey across the

:47:46. > :47:48.Mediterranean. First overall can I welcome the measured approach which

:47:49. > :47:52.the government minister has taken in his response, and questioned

:47:53. > :47:57.seriously the integrity of the honourable member on the backbenches

:47:58. > :48:02.who has the audacity to question... Sorry. The macro I think we all had

:48:03. > :48:06.integrity in this house and we're not going to change it. Minhster if

:48:07. > :48:15.you can pick something out of that, otherwise move on.

:48:16. > :48:19.Thank you Mr Deputy Speaker, I'm grateful to my honourable friend for

:48:20. > :48:26.the information he has given to the house this morning. Could I ask him

:48:27. > :48:32.whether child refugees are being admitted because they have family

:48:33. > :48:36.ties in the UK, our checks lade with their families here in this country

:48:37. > :48:40.if there are any doubts abott their age, and is the government giving a

:48:41. > :48:48.record of the ages of all the children who are being admitted and

:48:49. > :48:53.will this be published? Jenner we are certainly keeping records of the

:48:54. > :48:57.children and when they arrive at lunar house for processing, a

:48:58. > :49:04.terrible word, the initial welcome they get, they then move onto

:49:05. > :49:08.temporary holding facilities around the country before being retnited

:49:09. > :49:14.with their families and all the necessary social services checks

:49:15. > :49:18.will be carried out. Can thd Minister expand and provide a bit

:49:19. > :49:21.more detail on exactly what this government is doing to help protect

:49:22. > :49:27.honourable people and migrant children across Europe and the

:49:28. > :49:29.Balkans? Certainly as the previous Prime Minister announced at this

:49:30. > :49:35.dispatch box, it is very important that we are not distracted by the

:49:36. > :49:39.events in Calais and around Europe from the real need, which is in the

:49:40. > :49:42.refugee camps in the war zones and countries around the world zones. I

:49:43. > :49:46.am very pleased that we havd the second biggest donor and we working

:49:47. > :49:50.very closely to ensure that people there get help, and of course we

:49:51. > :49:54.have the programme for bringing 20,000 people from across those

:49:55. > :49:59.areas. They are the most vulnerable. It is not necessarily the c`se that

:50:00. > :50:02.those who can make the case -- the journey are the most vulner`ble and

:50:03. > :50:08.that is the right course I believe will stop can you insure th`t

:50:09. > :50:15.safeguarding checks are in place fully and they will be kept safely?

:50:16. > :50:17.Absolutely. Home Office offhcials with local government social service

:50:18. > :50:23.officials will make sure we discharge Culliver responsible at

:50:24. > :50:26.ease in terms of protecting the children. Many constituents in the

:50:27. > :50:29.Calder Valley have contacted me wanting to know why when we have

:50:30. > :50:32.said we are going to take Gdorgia from the jungle in Calais, that we

:50:33. > :50:39.are actually taking young mdn are not young girls? Can my honourable

:50:40. > :50:40.friend confirm that the onlx unaccompanied children that is those

:50:41. > :50:58.under 18 in Calais at the jungle are in fact a

:50:59. > :51:01.young men? 90% of those in the camps who are children are young len. And

:51:02. > :51:07.it is important that as we love to the next phase that will be younger

:51:08. > :51:11.children and those at most risk We now come to reopening the ddbate,

:51:12. > :51:16.Nick Herbert to continue. Thank you very much, Mr Deputy Speaker. As I

:51:17. > :51:20.was saying, it seems to me there is no difference between the government

:51:21. > :51:24.and the honourable member for East Dunbartonshire as to the intention

:51:25. > :51:31.of this bill, which is in rdlation to those who are living, and to whom

:51:32. > :51:39.and injustice has been done, they should be pardoned, but the

:51:40. > :51:45.intention is not the pardon those who committed offences that would

:51:46. > :51:48.still be criminal offences today. There is now disagreement bdtween

:51:49. > :51:52.the government and the honotrable member and other honourable members

:51:53. > :51:59.in this house as to the intdntion. The only disagreement is to the

:52:00. > :52:02.actual effect of the bill's proposals, and the honourable member

:52:03. > :52:09.has suggested a specific mechanism for ensuring that those who should

:52:10. > :52:13.not make use of a pardon in an improper manner, because it should

:52:14. > :52:18.not apply under the terms of his bill, could not do so because the

:52:19. > :52:26.onus of proof would be on them to show that they had not commhtted

:52:27. > :52:30.well but now still be an offence. In those circumstances, it seels to me

:52:31. > :52:35.to be right, especially givdn that this was a bill that in the first

:52:36. > :52:40.place the government encour`ge the honourable member to bring forward

:52:41. > :52:45.after his success in the prhvate member's bill ballot, it wotld seem

:52:46. > :52:50.to me to be entirely right `nd proper that the bill was given a

:52:51. > :52:56.second reading today, procedded to committee, where these diffdrences

:52:57. > :53:02.in legal effect could properly be ironed out. Ajax said that the

:53:03. > :53:07.government, in bringing forward its proposals a very short time ago

:53:08. > :53:11.intends to do broadly the s`me thing in fulfilment of its manifesto

:53:12. > :53:16.commitment that the honourable gentleman's bill sought to do, but I

:53:17. > :53:20.also understand why the honourable gentleman feels that his Bill should

:53:21. > :53:26.receive a second reading and that there should be further discussion

:53:27. > :53:30.about the particular effects that his Bill proposes, and indedd I

:53:31. > :53:34.don't think it was, in general is a very good way to proceed th`t the

:53:35. > :53:39.government, having originally proposed a bill having encotraged

:53:40. > :53:42.it, then a couple of days bdforehand brings forward its own alternative

:53:43. > :53:47.measures. If there has been some miss understanding or if brdakdown

:53:48. > :53:50.of communication, then I wotld urge on both sides that communic`tion is

:53:51. > :53:56.restored, and it would seem to me that the best thing and the proper

:53:57. > :54:03.thing would be to have thesd discussions in committee, so that

:54:04. > :54:06.legitimate discussion about the arcane provisions are exerchsed But

:54:07. > :54:11.I would just say, finally, H give way to the honourable... Very

:54:12. > :54:15.quickly Mr Deputy Speaker, can I confirm that if the governmdnt

:54:16. > :54:19.honours its original promisd to me and supports this, I will bd very

:54:20. > :54:25.happy to engage with them in committee with any concerns that

:54:26. > :54:29.they have. I'm sure that thd government will have heard that

:54:30. > :54:36.concern. What I think would be a pity would be if there was `ny

:54:37. > :54:41.attempt by other honourable members in this house who do not sh`re what

:54:42. > :54:47.I believe is the view of thd majority of those present today that

:54:48. > :54:52.this bill and its general provision should proceed, that in gendral it

:54:53. > :54:54.is right that people should be pardoned, and do not accept the

:54:55. > :55:00.Conservative Party's manifesto commitment to secure that wdre

:55:01. > :55:04.because of this particular disagreement over the legal effect

:55:05. > :55:09.of the honourable gentleman's Bill given an excuse not to allow the

:55:10. > :55:13.bill not to proceed. There hs, I repeat, no disagreement as to the

:55:14. > :55:18.intention of the honourable gentleman's Bill, it is the same as

:55:19. > :55:22.the government's intention. There will be people listening to this

:55:23. > :55:27.debate, and the signal that this House of Commons sends on these

:55:28. > :55:30.matters is immensely import`nt. As I said before the urgent question it

:55:31. > :55:35.is important to those who are still living, in terms of the Justice that

:55:36. > :55:38.should be done to them when a great injustice was done before, ht is

:55:39. > :55:40.important towards micro-manx young people who are struggling whth their

:55:41. > :55:45.own sexuality and coming to terms with it, and want to ensure

:55:46. > :55:50.acceptance today, it is important globally for the message th`t this

:55:51. > :55:54.country sends out to the rest of the world that the legislation we pass

:55:55. > :55:57.and promoted in an age gone by not only was wrong then that is capable

:55:58. > :56:03.of still doing great injusthce today. And we should therefore be

:56:04. > :56:08.atoning for that in a very clear manner on and we should not allow

:56:09. > :56:14.that message that we wish to send all of these groups of people to be

:56:15. > :56:20.distorted. This House of Colmons should stand for justice, for

:56:21. > :56:23.equality and we should stand for the principle that where an injtstice

:56:24. > :56:27.was done in the past, we should recognise that clearly and

:56:28. > :56:28.unequivocally, and that is why this bill should be given a second

:56:29. > :56:40.reading. Can I congratulate my honourable

:56:41. > :56:43.friend and colleague for East Dunbartonshire for bringing this

:56:44. > :56:54.important pill that is very essential Bill to parliament? There

:56:55. > :57:01.has been huge progress in allowing LGBT Scotland has become thd best

:57:02. > :57:07.country in Europe for gay rhghts with the UK close behind. Wd must

:57:08. > :57:13.never forget the appalling way the LGBT people have been treatdd in the

:57:14. > :57:17.UK throughout history. The criminalisation of thousands of gay

:57:18. > :57:23.and bisexual men who were c`utioned, convicted, imprisoned and even

:57:24. > :57:30.castrated by the homophobic laws which banned sex between consult --

:57:31. > :57:34.consenting adult men. We must now take ownership and apologisd for

:57:35. > :57:39.this. The namesake of this Bill Alan Turing, was a mathemathcian,

:57:40. > :57:43.competing pioneer and code broker whose work cracking the Enigma code

:57:44. > :57:48.is said to have shortened World War II by four years. He lost hhs job

:57:49. > :57:53.with the Secret Service aftdr being convicted for gross indecency and

:57:54. > :58:00.was chemically castrated. As a result he took his own life two

:58:01. > :58:05.years later in 1954. In 2013, he was granted a posthumous royal pardon,

:58:06. > :58:11.61 years after he had been charged at a Manchester police stathon. That

:58:12. > :58:17.is all good but it is both perverse and a cheering has been the only

:58:18. > :58:21.person to have been pardoned. I am sure no one doubts that there needs

:58:22. > :58:26.to be wider action on this latter. This government has a duty to

:58:27. > :58:30.everybody convicted under the gross indecency law to pardon thel from

:58:31. > :58:35.these historic, for the grillings. It is thought that at least 49, 00

:58:36. > :58:44.other gay and bisexual men were convicted until on sexualitx was

:58:45. > :58:46.deemed to be not illegal in 196 . Each of these was unfairly

:58:47. > :58:51.persecuted and many suffered similarly offer feeds to Al`n

:58:52. > :58:57.Turing. 16,000 of these men are still alive today. Many found

:58:58. > :59:00.themselves outed, interrogated and ostracised from society over their

:59:01. > :59:06.sexuality and suffered long lasting psychological damage. From what I

:59:07. > :59:10.understand, there is currently a disregard process. Men can `pply to

:59:11. > :59:16.have their record cleared which removes any mention of an offence

:59:17. > :59:20.from criminal record checks. This is not good enough. Although these men

:59:21. > :59:24.will still have to apply, this Bill will give a pocket pardon to all men

:59:25. > :59:30.who have lived their life w`s an unfair criminal conviction.

:59:31. > :59:33.Stonewall, the leading LGBT charity has given full support for the

:59:34. > :59:38.measures laid out in the Bill we are debating today. It makes a stronger

:59:39. > :59:43.statement on the seriousness of the commitment of the government in this

:59:44. > :59:48.area of social life. If we `re to take action in this area and provide

:59:49. > :59:52.leadership, it is best to do so any wholehearted way with the ftll

:59:53. > :59:55.backing of the law. I would personally go further and c`ll on

:59:56. > :59:59.the prime ministers to make a full public apology to LGBT individuals

:00:00. > :00:06.in the United Kingdom for the injustice they have suffered.

:00:07. > :00:10.Nothing we do can fully makd amends for the cruel discrimination these

:00:11. > :00:14.men have suffered and I hopd this Bill goes some way to giving a sense

:00:15. > :00:23.of closure for these men and their families. It is a pleasure to follow

:00:24. > :00:30.the honourable member for Dtndee West in this debate. I hope you

:00:31. > :00:36.won't mind me briefly marking the 50th anniversary of the Aberfan

:00:37. > :00:40.disaster, to pay tribute to those residents in Charleston in ly own

:00:41. > :00:44.constituency, who offered their own homes up and hospitality to not only

:00:45. > :00:49.give people somewhere to go to, but respite away from the scene for so

:00:50. > :00:55.many people had lost their lives and a plaque still commemorates that

:00:56. > :01:00.this day. I would like to congratulate the honourable member

:01:01. > :01:04.in bringing this Bill to thd House. Whatever the outcome of the debate,

:01:05. > :01:09.we have seen a major change which was announced yesterday by the

:01:10. > :01:14.government that will finallx see people be viewed as innocent, that

:01:15. > :01:18.they were not committing a criminal offence as we would know it today.

:01:19. > :01:24.In his introduction he talkdd about how, when he was born, it w`s a

:01:25. > :01:29.criminal offence. Even when I was born it was still a criminal offence

:01:30. > :01:35.to be who you are in Scotland and in Northern Ireland. It was only in

:01:36. > :01:39.1982, 15 years after decriminalisation in England, that

:01:40. > :01:46.similar provisions finally came into effect in Northern Ireland. Could

:01:47. > :01:57.also say some territories that our flag were still implying laws of

:01:58. > :02:03.this nature until the 1990s. It beggars belief that people still

:02:04. > :02:07.thought that was right. For me, we could look back through history and

:02:08. > :02:12.Liberty Hall range of offences that we would say are not fences. For

:02:13. > :02:15.example, we do not believe there is anyone in our constituencies tonight

:02:16. > :02:27.practising as it which, tryhng to make someone ill. Let's be clear,

:02:28. > :02:33.the reason we know those convictions are pagan nonsense, that people were

:02:34. > :02:38.sent to the gallows for somdthing which was nonsense and based on fear

:02:39. > :02:45.and hysteria. The differencd with these offences is that it is where

:02:46. > :02:50.people are not gay. That is who they are. In the past it would h`ve been

:02:51. > :03:02.a criminal offence. The laws we were referring to, there are people

:03:03. > :03:09.alive, ... That is why, for me, having this type of pardon lakes

:03:10. > :03:16.sense. I have felt a bit of the debate has danced around thd head of

:03:17. > :03:21.a pin. We have got an argumdnt that it pardon should be given btt it

:03:22. > :03:27.will only be replicated on criminal record checks. First is a p`rdon

:03:28. > :03:31.that will be granted after the removal from criminal record checks.

:03:32. > :03:37.We would all agree that crilinal record checks have to be accurate

:03:38. > :03:41.and listening to The Member For East Dunbartonshire, I have found some of

:03:42. > :03:47.the argument on both sides rather interesting when comparing them and

:03:48. > :03:52.where we come to. Your input arguments and haven't got a copy of

:03:53. > :03:58.the Bill, there is no suggestion from anyone that what is sthll a

:03:59. > :04:03.criminal offence today should not remain on someone's record. The

:04:04. > :04:08.debate is how we get there. I very much welcome the fact that the

:04:09. > :04:11.government will probably give the quickest way of getting there in

:04:12. > :04:16.terms of a Bill which is in the Lords and will come back here. I

:04:17. > :04:20.also think in terms of commdnting on the Bill before us today, nobody is

:04:21. > :04:24.suggesting that someone shotld be able to claim they would have been

:04:25. > :04:31.innocent of an offence that would still be an offence to this day

:04:32. > :04:34.Particularly where we have lore modern legislation in relathon to

:04:35. > :04:40.those in positions of authority over those aged 16 and 17 were, puite

:04:41. > :04:46.bizarrely, given the hysterha around the impact on young boys thdre

:04:47. > :04:51.wasn't any legislation in the 1 50s that made it an offence for a

:04:52. > :04:55.teacher to basically be a predator for a 16 or 17-year-old fem`le

:04:56. > :05:04.student or a student of the opposite sex. Yet, there was an offence, to

:05:05. > :05:07.refer to the then Labour government, it could sense that when ch`nging

:05:08. > :05:12.the age of consent, that anomaly was rated that it was equally as bad

:05:13. > :05:15.that a 30 or 40-year-old chhldren would pray and a member of the

:05:16. > :05:20.opposite sex as it would soleone of their own sex. They were ushng their

:05:21. > :05:27.position to abuse, not the type of relationship. It is also about

:05:28. > :05:33.getting back into the past `bout why some people would say white apply to

:05:34. > :05:40.offences Bill 1967. The offdnces before and in six to seven were

:05:41. > :05:45.clearly nonsense. Another mdmber made the point about the re`ctions

:05:46. > :05:50.and behaviour from the police. In some cases, there were more

:05:51. > :05:56.prosecutions after 1967 then there had been before. Some forces did

:05:57. > :06:00.recognise that the legislathon pre-1967 was from another era and

:06:01. > :06:05.the enforcement of it was mhxed and variable. It is safe to say that in

:06:06. > :06:10.the mid-19 40s there was allost a policy in World War II of dhscreetly

:06:11. > :06:19.ignoring things on the basis that it was seen as helpful to use people's

:06:20. > :06:23.skills in the fight for freddom and then in the 1950s moved to try to

:06:24. > :06:27.take the freedom of whether prosecuting them for offencds that

:06:28. > :06:32.would restore handled. It does make sense to look not just that those

:06:33. > :06:36.who were convicted on the l`w pre-1967, but those who werd

:06:37. > :06:42.convicted up until very recdntly on those that are different. It should

:06:43. > :06:48.be remembered that we still have in the merchant Navy, eight st`tute

:06:49. > :06:54.book buyer on gay men serving. There is a private members Bill to remove

:06:55. > :06:57.that. It is sad to note that are part of our legislation that are

:06:58. > :07:05.historic and contain these provisions, though not in that

:07:06. > :07:09.instance in force. A lot of it does reflect on where we have got to

:07:10. > :07:15.today. Changing attitudes in society. I had a major change of

:07:16. > :07:19.attitude when I went to university. I went to a secondary school, I had

:07:20. > :07:24.fallen in for some of the prejudice and the arguments and the group

:07:25. > :07:28.thought. When I got to univdrsity and the first time people wdre out

:07:29. > :07:33.and saying who they were proud of it. The president of Warwick pride

:07:34. > :07:38.Society, who was having a chat with me when there was a debate going on

:07:39. > :07:46.around section 20 eight. He said to me, I should be a Conservathve. He

:07:47. > :07:51.said I believe in freedom of choice. Up until I make the choice `round

:07:52. > :07:55.where I wanted to love, lovd you argue against that. I can choose to

:07:56. > :07:59.have a pension or not, choose what I was about, whether I have children

:08:00. > :08:08.or not, yet I cannot choose who I love. That was a changing moment and

:08:09. > :08:12.it was such a logical argumdnt. I have got that choice, why shouldn't

:08:13. > :08:17.they? Some people though my partner is older than myself. I havd the

:08:18. > :08:22.right to choose that. It has never been an offence. Why should it be an

:08:23. > :08:25.offence for anyone else to choose who they love? Provided thex are

:08:26. > :08:32.both of the age where they can make an informed and mutual choice.

:08:33. > :08:39.Likewise, sometimes we get the religious argument. I am a

:08:40. > :08:45.practising Christian. That was regularly used to justify the laws

:08:46. > :08:50.of the past. Yet, there is ` law in the Ten Commandments around

:08:51. > :08:55.adultery. It is described as a sin, never been a criminal offence.

:08:56. > :08:59.Probably some of the people here making some of the comments that

:09:00. > :09:11.were being cited might well have been concerned if that had become a

:09:12. > :09:15.criminal offence. There is `lso in Deuteronomy, a ruling against mixed

:09:16. > :09:23.fabrics, but to the best of my knowledge, we don't some people

:09:24. > :09:29.publicly for mixing well. I thank the honourable gentleman for that

:09:30. > :09:39.intervention. I also find it hard to find out what is the appropriate

:09:40. > :09:42.price for slaves. Perhaps whth The Member For East Dunbartonshhre may

:09:43. > :09:49.not where is the homophobes and prejudiced individuals in p`rts of

:09:50. > :09:54.the red states like to quotd Leviticus, they Tattie it to their

:09:55. > :09:59.body. There is also a bit in Leviticus which describes touting

:10:00. > :10:03.your skin as a sin. It is one of the most delicious ironies. Thex are so

:10:04. > :10:07.blinded by the prejudice th`t they haven't bothered to read evdn the

:10:08. > :10:13.rest of that book of the Bible while proudly displaying that. Thdy don't

:10:14. > :10:17.know the sheer irony and how they were showing the total and ttter

:10:18. > :10:25.ignorance when you have it car to like that done to your body. For me,

:10:26. > :10:29.I don't see there is an argtment. It has been hundreds of years since we

:10:30. > :10:33.had the idea that religious beliefs should be enforced by polithcal

:10:34. > :10:43.power. Therefore, the argumdnt used in the past seemed completely

:10:44. > :10:46.incoherent. Offences in rel`tion to homosexuality were victimless

:10:47. > :10:51.crimes. No one had complaindd. Both sides were happy to take part. There

:10:52. > :10:55.was no idea that and the right had been infringed, just that other

:10:56. > :10:56.people were so prejudiced about that choice that they thought it should

:10:57. > :11:06.be a criminal offence. Without the time seen as trtly

:11:07. > :11:09.ridiculous offences attached, when no one had gone to the police to say

:11:10. > :11:14.I had been harmful stock as rightly pointed out, all too often this just

:11:15. > :11:19.became a way of blackmailing people, of threatening to go and Bob someone

:11:20. > :11:22.in. And shamefully, even until the 1990s, we still have the military

:11:23. > :11:29.police doing that and dealing in that sort of behaviour -- dob

:11:30. > :11:33.someone in. An episode of a touch of frost, as a teenager I saw, which is

:11:34. > :11:35.very much based on the idea that someone could be blackmailed, their

:11:36. > :11:44.whole career, on the basis of whether they are gay or not was

:11:45. > :11:49.absolutely shameful. It was right to point out, and by some people of my

:11:50. > :11:52.government who were in power at the time, John Major did the right thing

:11:53. > :11:56.at the foreign service but H think at that time we did the wrong thing

:11:57. > :11:59.in terms of not admitting pdople to the Armed Forces, that actu`lly the

:12:00. > :12:05.arguments around were the stuff of the stuff and nonsense. It has also

:12:06. > :12:11.been pleasing to see finallx in the United States, President Ob`ma's

:12:12. > :12:16.abandoning of don't ask, don't tell. What absolute load of nonsense,

:12:17. > :12:20.sharing a shower is fine as long as you don't tell each other. Ht was

:12:21. > :12:24.absolute nonsense and marked for me quite a symbolic change to love

:12:25. > :12:29.forward. So for me it does put me into a slight quandary, I sde here

:12:30. > :12:32.the government's argument, ht is welcome that the government is

:12:33. > :12:36.prepared to move on this, I hear the argument from the honourabld member

:12:37. > :12:39.the East Dunbartonshire arotnd the bill. I certainly won't be opposing

:12:40. > :12:44.the bill, I think that would be a ridiculous thing to do. And I do

:12:45. > :12:49.think some of the objections we are hearing are, I think, points that

:12:50. > :12:52.for someone to have the practical effect, which I think is thd key

:12:53. > :12:56.concern any of us would havd, the bill I think covers that, as does

:12:57. > :12:59.the government amendment. That said, the government amendment is almost

:13:00. > :13:03.certainly the quickest way to get this onto the statute book `nd

:13:04. > :13:06.finally give people a chancd to actually, I went so to clear their

:13:07. > :13:13.name, because actually we all know they are not criminals, thex are

:13:14. > :13:16.innocent. All they have dond is beef they are. So I actually find the

:13:17. > :13:24.idea of clearing their name slightly strange. I know others want to speak

:13:25. > :13:28.on and I broadly sympathise with the direction he is going but I just

:13:29. > :13:33.want to draw his attention to the government measure doesn't do the

:13:34. > :13:40.same thing. The only to achheve the same thing is to send the bhll into

:13:41. > :13:45.committee. I thank the Right Honourable member for his

:13:46. > :13:49.intervention. For me, though, it is ultimately debating about the

:13:50. > :13:53.record. I accept there is a member for the East Dunbartonshire's Bill,

:13:54. > :13:57.this is a blanket pardon, btt it actually only really takes dffect in

:13:58. > :14:00.terms of actually getting your name off criminal records via

:14:01. > :14:04.application, and the governlent s idea that you get your name off the

:14:05. > :14:09.criminal record and then get a formal pardon. I think that is the

:14:10. > :14:12.fundamental difference that seems to be being put forward. I accdpt the

:14:13. > :14:17.points made that this could be reflected in committee, but for me,

:14:18. > :14:21.it is actually quite unforttnate, we have had a couple of hours, bluntly

:14:22. > :14:33.we all agree with the sentilent we all agree with the principld, but we

:14:34. > :14:36.are dancing around on a pin. The key difference is that the government

:14:37. > :14:41.wants some safeguards around the pardon for the living. The lember

:14:42. > :14:45.for Rhonda spoke about some people with great moral fibre in this

:14:46. > :14:49.debate, but what the governlent wants to protect against is where

:14:50. > :14:52.there is a blanket pardon, someone, for example, who hadn't been

:14:53. > :14:56.pardoned could go around saxing they had. And for example what do you say

:14:57. > :15:05.to the victims of that person if it was noncontractual sex in that case

:15:06. > :15:09.Quek at with respect to the Minister, anyone could go around

:15:10. > :15:12.Fleming they had been pardoned for an offence, it is the posithon in

:15:13. > :15:23.the criminal records that m`kes the key difference. I am very conscious

:15:24. > :15:29.of time. This is a seminal debate. Would the join me in urging the

:15:30. > :15:32.Minister to get into committee, sort out the problems the Ministdr things

:15:33. > :15:37.he has an let's get it in the statute book. I thank the Shadow

:15:38. > :15:40.Minister for the intervention. I hear watches saying, although

:15:41. > :15:43.actually to be fair to the Linister, he has gone further than anxone else

:15:44. > :15:48.has gone in the last 50 years to pardon the ball so I am loathe to

:15:49. > :15:52.offer criticism. I will not oppose this bill, that would be thd wrong

:15:53. > :15:56.step I think, but I think it is likely I will probably coming to

:15:57. > :15:58.abstain, because I think thd government is offering something up

:15:59. > :16:02.that makes a difference and a change. But I would say to the

:16:03. > :16:05.Minister that anyone could go around claiming they could be pardoned it

:16:06. > :16:09.is criminal record checks that are the final determinant and the

:16:10. > :16:13.record. And I think both sides in this argument are not contending

:16:14. > :16:16.that in any way that there should be a change to those terms, without

:16:17. > :16:22.somebody actually proving that this was not going to be a criminal

:16:23. > :16:25.offence. As I would say, for me ultimately, this is about pdople who

:16:26. > :16:30.have never committed an offdnce or they did was be who they ard and I

:16:31. > :16:33.think it is welcome, and it is unfortunate we have ended up having

:16:34. > :16:37.such a strong argument about finer points. Can I say to people that we

:16:38. > :16:42.are in danger of talking thd bill out, all these people are w`iting,

:16:43. > :16:48.can we try to help each othdr? To all speakers, try to keep it short

:16:49. > :16:54.and we can get there. I would like to pay my respects to the pdople of

:16:55. > :17:01.Aberfan, we will not forget you I would like to thank the people putt

:17:02. > :17:04.Honourable member for bringhng the bill, and people who support this

:17:05. > :17:11.bill, and the fantastic spedches we have had today, especially ly very

:17:12. > :17:14.Honourable friend, the membdr for Rhondda. The government's

:17:15. > :17:17.announcement today that he hs seeking to amend the police and the

:17:18. > :17:22.bill is of course welcome btt he doesn't go far enough. The two

:17:23. > :17:29.clauses tabled today contain posthumous pardons and pardons for

:17:30. > :17:31.men who are still alive. Thd first put pardoned anyone who had been

:17:32. > :17:33.convicted of or cautioned for a specified offence and has dhed

:17:34. > :17:39.before the clause comes into force, provided the following two

:17:40. > :17:43.conditions are met: the othdr two -- the other person consented to it and

:17:44. > :17:50.was aged 16 or over. Any such conduct at the time, this sdction

:17:51. > :17:54.came into force, would not be an offence under section 71 of the

:17:55. > :18:02.sexual offences act 2003, sdxual activity in a public lavatory. The

:18:03. > :18:08.second clause calls for a who are still living, it would causd an --

:18:09. > :18:15.the protection of freedoms `ct 012. Those living at the time thd clause

:18:16. > :18:20.cams in the first. Pardons for living men would not however be

:18:21. > :18:25.automatic. They would inste`d be tied to the disregard process set

:18:26. > :18:29.out in the 2012 act. Anyone whose conviction or caution has already

:18:30. > :18:33.become disregarded under thd 20 2 act at the time the clause comes

:18:34. > :18:39.into force will be pardoned for that offence. Anyone whose conviction or

:18:40. > :18:43.cautioned the comes disregarded after the 2012 act after thd clause

:18:44. > :18:47.comes into force will be pardoned for that offence at the timd the

:18:48. > :18:51.disregard takes offence. So living men will not receive a pardon under

:18:52. > :18:55.the new clause unless they have also successfully applied to havd their

:18:56. > :19:04.conviction or caution disregarded under the 2012 act. The press has

:19:05. > :19:13.been quick to name this proposal Turing's law. Alan Turing, ` well

:19:14. > :19:18.hero, -- were hero, his pardon came posthumously and too late. Ht was a

:19:19. > :19:22.Labour Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, who rightly issued an offichal

:19:23. > :19:28.apology in 2009 after a public petition. In issuing an apology he

:19:29. > :19:35.said in 1952 he was convictdd of gross indecency. In effect tried for

:19:36. > :19:40.being gay. He was sentenced and faced with a miserable choice of

:19:41. > :19:44.this or prison, was chemical castration by a series of injections

:19:45. > :19:51.of female hormones. He took his own life just two years later. Thousands

:19:52. > :19:54.of people have come together to demand justice for Alan Turhng, and

:19:55. > :19:59.in recognition of the appalling way he was treated. While Turing was

:20:00. > :20:03.doubtful than the rule of the time and we can't put the clock back his

:20:04. > :20:08.treatment was of course uttdrly unfair, and I am pleased to have the

:20:09. > :20:12.chance to say how deeply sorry I am, as we all are, to what happdned to

:20:13. > :20:17.him. Alan and so many others, thousands of gay men who were

:20:18. > :20:21.convicted as he was convictdd, and a homophobic laws were treated

:20:22. > :20:26.terribly. Over the years, mhllions more live in fear of conviction I

:20:27. > :20:36.am powered that those days `re gone, and that in the past 12 years, this

:20:37. > :20:41.government -- I am proud. This recognition of Alan's status as one

:20:42. > :20:46.of Britain's most famous victims of homophobia is another step towards

:20:47. > :20:50.equality, and long overdue. Members on this side of the house and Labour

:20:51. > :20:54.supporters the length and breadth of the UK are proud that it was a

:20:55. > :20:57.Labour government and a Labour Prime Minister that started the process

:20:58. > :21:03.which has led us to this debate today. It was the coalition

:21:04. > :21:07.government who initially refused to exercise a pardon in 2012, `nd it

:21:08. > :21:13.was right that under the wehght of public opinion they changed their

:21:14. > :21:19.minds in 2013, in order that the Queen could grant a pardon hn 2 14.

:21:20. > :21:23.But as many have said today there are so many more who have not

:21:24. > :21:28.received a pardon and it is right that they should do so. As others

:21:29. > :21:34.have said it is right that we should recognise the need to extend the

:21:35. > :21:36.pardon afforded to Alan Turhng two others convicted to what much of

:21:37. > :21:39.history's shame was a criminal offence, though most people today

:21:40. > :21:47.find it hard to believe quite rightly. This is why Labour

:21:48. > :21:52.committed to Turing's law in the 2015 general election, but the law

:21:53. > :21:57.as it stands does not go far enough. Rachel Barnes, a great-niecd of Alan

:21:58. > :22:06.Turing, recognise that in 2015, when handing a petition to Downing Street

:22:07. > :22:10.said: I consider it to be f`ir that everyone convicted under thd gross

:22:11. > :22:15.indecency law is given a pardon It is illogical that might gre`t uncle

:22:16. > :22:18.is the only one to have been given a pardon. I would feel sure that Alan

:22:19. > :22:23.Turing would also have wantdd justice for everybody. And ht is

:22:24. > :22:26.right that the government h`s listened to those who have

:22:27. > :22:32.campaigned on this issue for many years. The private members bill

:22:33. > :22:39.before the house today would go further. Pardons would be ghven to

:22:40. > :22:42.all those is, so for those convicted of behaviour that would still amount

:22:43. > :22:47.to an offence today. It is difficult to the government's objection to

:22:48. > :22:54.this in principle. The problems of perception, as the Minister

:22:55. > :22:56.highlights, could easily be avoided. It is often suggested that the

:22:57. > :23:06.disregard scheme should havd more promotion. The proposed amendment to

:23:07. > :23:12.section 92 on the protection of freedoms act, also looks like a

:23:13. > :23:21.logical progression. Section 32 of the sexual offences act 1956,

:23:22. > :23:24.soliciting by men for immor`l purposes, was not included hn the

:23:25. > :23:30.list of conviction that shotld be disregarded in the protection of

:23:31. > :23:34.freedoms act 2012. There ard many examples which show the offdnce was

:23:35. > :23:39.used as recently as the 1990s to arrest and prosecute gay and

:23:40. > :23:48.bisexual men for suggesting sex between what they understood to be

:23:49. > :23:49.consenting at adults, often in incidents involving plainclothes

:23:50. > :24:04.policeman. This bill will at this convhction to

:24:05. > :24:09.the list of laws that can bd disregarded, closing this loophole.

:24:10. > :24:16.Labour recognises that the conviction and persecution of more

:24:17. > :24:19.than 50,000 men affected by these vicious and discriminatory laws has

:24:20. > :24:24.left a legacy of pain and htrt, not just to the men themselves but to

:24:25. > :24:28.their family and friends. This is all about our country sending those

:24:29. > :24:32.men a clear and unequivocal message, you did nothing wrong. They did

:24:33. > :24:37.nothing wrong. They should not have been criminalised, and it is time to

:24:38. > :24:45.write this grievously historical wrong. That is why we will be

:24:46. > :24:56.supporting this bill and we encourage honourable members to do

:24:57. > :24:58.the same. May I begin by adding my congratulations to the honotrable

:24:59. > :25:04.member for East Dunbartonshhre firstly for securing the top spot in

:25:05. > :25:09.the private members bill ballot and then deciding to use it to hntroduce

:25:10. > :25:15.this important bill. I was very pleased and honoured to be `sked to

:25:16. > :25:20.be a co-sponsor of the bill, and my support remains undiluted for it.

:25:21. > :25:27.And should we come to a divhsion on this bill today I will be stpporting

:25:28. > :25:33.him in the lobby. I identifhed with much of what he said in his opening

:25:34. > :25:40.speech about the experiences of growing up as a closeted gax man in

:25:41. > :25:45.the West of Scotland. I went through a similar experience and upbringing,

:25:46. > :25:50.and it wasn't easy. And it took me a long time to come to terms with who

:25:51. > :26:10.I was. Indeed, we went to the same school.

:26:11. > :26:18.It might be and Galant of md to say that it was a few years apart. It

:26:19. > :26:27.wasn't easy growing up in that atmosphere and being gay and having

:26:28. > :26:31.to cite -- highs that. -- hhde that. My other reason for being vdry

:26:32. > :26:37.passionate about this measure is a constituency one. I am very proud to

:26:38. > :26:40.have in my Milton Keynes constituency Bletchley Park where

:26:41. > :26:47.Allen during did much of his celebrated work during the Second

:26:48. > :26:52.World War. -- Alan Turing. He did much to shorten that conflict, as my

:26:53. > :26:57.honourable colleagues have referred to, saving thousands if not millions

:26:58. > :27:02.of lives as a consequence. H am very proud that we have got to the point

:27:03. > :27:06.where he was granted a pardon in the last parliament. That was a

:27:07. > :27:12.culmination of a long campahgn for many years by many people inside and

:27:13. > :27:16.outside of this House. I relember when the debate was happening about

:27:17. > :27:21.whether he should be granted a pardon as opposed to an apology

:27:22. > :27:27.there were a number of objections raised and the one and only time I

:27:28. > :27:31.was grilled on Newsnight by Jeremy Paxman, two particular argulents

:27:32. > :27:39.were made. The first was, it wrong retrospectively to pardon for a

:27:40. > :27:44.crime that was a crime at the time but now which thankfully in more

:27:45. > :27:49.enlightened times is no longer so. Because if you started pardoning for

:27:50. > :27:55.that, where do you stop? Wh`t about witchcraft? Do we grant a p`rdon and

:27:56. > :27:58.apology for that? Well, if people want to bring forward a bill to

:27:59. > :28:03.pardon people for witchcraft, I would say, bring it forward. This is

:28:04. > :28:09.a matter that really matters to lots of people. A sign of a civilised

:28:10. > :28:23.society is that we can colldctively pardon. There is no fault whth the

:28:24. > :28:28.pardon that was issued for people executed in the First World War for

:28:29. > :28:35.cowardice. That was issued `nd it showed that we can retrospectively

:28:36. > :28:43.pardon. The second argument was why just Allen during? Yes, a f`mous

:28:44. > :28:52.person, a person to whom we owe an enormous debt of gratitude, but as

:28:53. > :29:02.many people have alluded to, he was just one person caught under the

:29:03. > :29:06.same legislation. -- Alan Ttring. That was more difficult to `rgue. I

:29:07. > :29:11.was happy to champion Alan Turing because we do, as a country, owe him

:29:12. > :29:16.an enormous debt of gratitude. It was also a symbolic gesture that the

:29:17. > :29:21.country has moved on and by pardoning him, we would send a very

:29:22. > :29:26.clear message that such so-called crimes were no longer a stahn on our

:29:27. > :29:33.collective conscience. But ht did trouble me that it was just that one

:29:34. > :29:37.person. At the honourable mdmber for East Dunbartonshire and othdrs have

:29:38. > :29:42.said, it did affect many thousands of other men. That is why I am very

:29:43. > :29:46.pleased that this bill is bding introduced and, to be fair to the

:29:47. > :29:50.Government, they have made progress on this through the protecthon of

:29:51. > :29:55.freedom is that in the last Parliament and their indication of

:29:56. > :30:00.support to Lord Sharkey's alendment in the Other Place. That is very

:30:01. > :30:03.welcome progress and I will wholeheartedly support that if that

:30:04. > :30:11.is the vehicle through which change happens. However, I absolutdly agree

:30:12. > :30:17.with the honourable member will -- member for Dumbartonshire and others

:30:18. > :30:24.who have said, we can do better than this. We can move forward in a much

:30:25. > :30:31.more symbolic way and in a way which will really make a difference to

:30:32. > :30:39.many people in this country. Certainly. It is appointed symbolist

:30:40. > :30:46.than what I think that very much at the heart of what he is sayhng. I

:30:47. > :30:52.would have loved to have spoken today but my voice is giving in I

:30:53. > :30:59.did not come out until after I was elected to my family. I hopd the

:31:00. > :31:04.next generation of young people will not have to make public statements,

:31:05. > :31:08.the next generation of politicians will not have do say they are gay

:31:09. > :31:18.because it will not matter, our race, sex or sexuality will not

:31:19. > :31:22.matter. It is very important we go forwards with this as a bill because

:31:23. > :31:28.it will have better scrutinx than it would do otherwise. I absolttely

:31:29. > :31:31.agree with the honourable l`dy and I congratulate her on finding her

:31:32. > :31:37.moment to make that announcdment and agree that we shouldn't havd do make

:31:38. > :31:44.it. But we, all of us who are gay, have a different journey. Wd come to

:31:45. > :31:46.terms with it at different times in different ways, privately whth our

:31:47. > :31:53.family and friends and then publicly. That leads us neatly to

:31:54. > :31:58.the next point I was going to make. Although we do live in enlightened

:31:59. > :32:03.times and we have passed thd same-sex marriage act and sdction 20

:32:04. > :32:10.is consigned to the dustbin, or section two A as it was in Scotland.

:32:11. > :32:13.Adoption procedures have ch`nged, the military procedures havd

:32:14. > :32:17.changed. Some people say, why do you need this? Haven't you got `ll you

:32:18. > :32:22.have been asking for? But there is an important point that even people

:32:23. > :32:29.like me who were born after homosexuality was decriminalised

:32:30. > :32:34.still can carry with us perhaps a sense of shame, perhaps a sdnse that

:32:35. > :32:44.we are not entirely comfort`ble in our own skin. That is a leg`cy of

:32:45. > :32:49.growing up in an age when there was prejudice. Different people cope

:32:50. > :32:55.with that in different ways. I've struggled with it at times. I've

:32:56. > :32:59.read a very good book and I would encourage other members to read it.

:33:00. > :33:08.It's called the Velvet Ridgd by Doctor Alan Downs. And he gdts to

:33:09. > :33:12.the heart of why some gay mdn steal feel, even in enlightened thmes in

:33:13. > :33:22.countries where the law is `s liberal as it can be, still fill

:33:23. > :33:27.that Shane -- still feel th`t shame. It does matter that we addrdss that.

:33:28. > :33:31.This bill in itself will not clearly hang-ups or depression or anything

:33:32. > :33:36.that people have, but it will be an important step, in the same way that

:33:37. > :33:41.same-sex marriage was and all the other changes we have made hn recent

:33:42. > :33:48.years. So, I do urge the Government to think seriously about supporting

:33:49. > :33:52.this bill, at least allowing it through second reading. If H

:33:53. > :33:56.remember correctly when I w`s studying politics at university the

:33:57. > :34:02.point of a second reading is a debate on the principle of the bill.

:34:03. > :34:07.No one today has expressed objection to the principle of the bill. If

:34:08. > :34:11.there are questions about the detail, the process, the capacity of

:34:12. > :34:15.the Ministry of Justice, thdse are all perfectly valid concerns to

:34:16. > :34:21.raise. We are a parliament, that is what we do. We look at the detail.

:34:22. > :34:27.We tease out, looking for unintended consequences, but surely we can do

:34:28. > :34:32.that in committee? It would send, I think, a very powerful mess`ge, an

:34:33. > :34:39.important message, to be cotntry, to the thousands of men who struggled

:34:40. > :34:43.still with what happened in the past and to those who are still growing

:34:44. > :34:50.up today, uncertain about how or should they come out. Pleasd let us

:34:51. > :34:54.approve this today. Take it to committee, tease out the issues

:34:55. > :34:58.there. That is the appropri`te procedure in my view for thhs bill.

:34:59. > :35:03.I congratulate again the honourable gentleman for introducing it and

:35:04. > :35:09.I'll be very proud to support him in the lobbies later if it comds to it.

:35:10. > :35:13.Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker It is a genuine pleasure to follow the

:35:14. > :35:20.honourable member for Milton Keynes South who has developed -- delivered

:35:21. > :35:24.a powerful speech and I also want to particularly thank in the w`rmest

:35:25. > :35:30.terms the honourable member for East Dumbartonshire who has brought this

:35:31. > :35:41.bill before us today. Unlikd him, I wasn't born in the 1970s, btt my

:35:42. > :35:47.parents were. I reflect on how much our society has changed durhng their

:35:48. > :35:53.lifetimes and mine. In parthcular, thinking about how far the law of

:35:54. > :35:58.the light -- land has changdd just during my own lifetime. We have seen

:35:59. > :36:07.the abolition of section 28 across England and Wales and two A in

:36:08. > :36:09.Scotland, the legalisation of equal marriage, the introduction of

:36:10. > :36:15.protection in goods and services, the ability for LGB to people to

:36:16. > :36:19.serve in the armed services. There have been so many changes brought

:36:20. > :36:25.about in the law of the land by this place that have led to our country

:36:26. > :36:29.being a better place for it. That is why I very much support this bill

:36:30. > :36:32.today. I also support, by the way, the fact we are having a debate with

:36:33. > :36:37.a Conservative Government about how we make the change to the l`w

:36:38. > :36:41.whether -- rather than whether we should. I will return to th`t point

:36:42. > :36:45.in my short remarks but I do welcome the fact that the Government has

:36:46. > :36:48.made some steps in the Housd of Lords and I would urge them this

:36:49. > :36:53.afternoon to go further through this bill and through proper scrttiny in

:36:54. > :36:58.the House of Commons. Alan Turing has an important part in our

:36:59. > :37:02.country's history but he also has an important part to play in otr

:37:03. > :37:09.country's teacher because, through great initiatives like the work of

:37:10. > :37:14.science and history teaches throughout the country, young people

:37:15. > :37:20.today learn of the extraordhnary acts of bravery and intelligence

:37:21. > :37:24.that took part at Bletchley Park in the honourable gentleman's

:37:25. > :37:29.constituency. Were it not for Alan Turing, it is very likely that we

:37:30. > :37:34.would not have succeeded in turning back the tide of Nazism as ht swept

:37:35. > :37:38.across Europe, we would not have been successful at defeating them in

:37:39. > :37:41.the sea and in the air and ht was three the Enigma code breakhng work

:37:42. > :37:47.that took place at Bletchlex Park that the allies were able to secure

:37:48. > :37:53.such a powerful advantage over the Nazis when all seemed lost on the

:37:54. > :37:58.continent of Europe. That story is powerful, not just because of the

:37:59. > :38:03.extraordinary role that Alan Turing played in that decisive momdnt in

:38:04. > :38:10.British history, but becausd only a few years later, this hero of our

:38:11. > :38:15.country was tried before our courts, chemically castrated and forced to

:38:16. > :38:19.take his own life. Young people growing up in schools today not only

:38:20. > :38:23.learn about the enormous heroism of Alan Turing, they also learn about

:38:24. > :38:29.the extraordinary treachery of the Government of the day, of the courts

:38:30. > :38:33.that allowed it to happen, `nd in that lesson, in that experidnce

:38:34. > :38:38.they reflect on what it means to be a decent human being. They reflect

:38:39. > :38:44.with horror on Britain's past and they aspire towards a better future.

:38:45. > :38:49.As a former head of education at Stonewall, I know how powerful the

:38:50. > :38:53.work of teachers and schools is not just in learning about changes to

:38:54. > :39:02.the law, but in bringing about change to heart and mind. L DBT

:39:03. > :39:07.young people growing up in Britain today face very different challenges

:39:08. > :39:09.to Alan Turing and his generation. Unlike Alan Turing's generation

:39:10. > :39:14.they are not threatened by the letter of the law, but just like

:39:15. > :39:18.Alan Turing's generation, they do nonetheless feel threatened by

:39:19. > :39:25.bigotry on the streets, in the workplace, in the classroom, in the

:39:26. > :39:32.home. That is why we need to think very carefully about the message we

:39:33. > :39:38.will send three the law tod`y - through the law today, becatse of

:39:39. > :39:44.those pressures that LGB to the well feel they need to remain in the

:39:45. > :39:53.closet. We have the appalling situation where One in Five men are

:39:54. > :39:56.currently experiencing anxidty, where one third of lesbian xoung

:39:57. > :40:03.women have thought about taking their own lives and where,

:40:04. > :40:07.shockingly, more than a half of LGB teeth young people in our schools

:40:08. > :40:12.have self harmed, where one in four has attempted suicide. Thesd are

:40:13. > :40:15.young people growing up in our society today and if we werd

:40:16. > :40:20.thinking or talking about these figures in any other context, there

:40:21. > :40:24.would be an outrage in this place and across the country about these

:40:25. > :40:28.figures for suicide and self harm and yet these are very real

:40:29. > :40:33.statistics affecting young people in our country to date. These `re of

:40:34. > :40:36.epidemic proportions. This hs a national crisis and the Govdrnment

:40:37. > :40:41.needs to look very carefullx at what it can do to tackle the mental

:40:42. > :40:47.health crisis that still affects LGB T people in Britain today. The

:40:48. > :40:51.member for Reigate spoke very powerfully about symbols and the

:40:52. > :40:54.possibility for this bill to be a very powerful symbol about the kind

:40:55. > :40:58.of country we want to be. I would urge the Minister to think very

:40:59. > :41:03.carefully about what symbol it would send today if this bill, with all of

:41:04. > :41:04.the welcome publicity that's been generated, was either talked out or

:41:05. > :41:11.defeated. I think it would send a message that

:41:12. > :41:16.there are still people in this House and across the country who `re not

:41:17. > :41:19.content to see equality for LGBT people, who look back on thd

:41:20. > :41:23.progress made by this Parli`ment not with pride and optimism for the

:41:24. > :41:30.future but with regret and pessimism about their ability to defe`t what

:41:31. > :41:35.Martin Luther King called the arc of social progress that bends towards

:41:36. > :41:37.justice. I think listening to what the Minister has said this

:41:38. > :41:41.afternoon, he clearly has some technical problems with the Bill as

:41:42. > :41:46.it is presented, and that is exactly why he should it urges colldagues to

:41:47. > :41:50.vote in favour of the Bill, to give this a second reading so thdse

:41:51. > :41:55.things can be ironed out at committee stage. People across the

:41:56. > :41:58.country will not hear that there are technical concerns, they will see

:41:59. > :42:01.the views that a conservative governorate has conspired to defeat

:42:02. > :42:04.an aborted measure. I will give way. It is important to make it clear

:42:05. > :42:09.that the Government is not dragging its heels, not hesitant on this

:42:10. > :42:19.important issue. The governor wants to write this historic wrong and do

:42:20. > :42:22.it as fairly as possible. I am absolutely delighted by the

:42:23. > :42:28.statement, and I'm delighted to talk further about how can I out the

:42:29. > :42:32.problems as we march into the lobby this afternoon. The other thing I

:42:33. > :42:35.want to say before I conclude is that while we can look back with

:42:36. > :42:39.enormous pride at what has been achieved, we cannot issue that the

:42:40. > :42:42.progress we have made cannot be undone. I'm sure I'm not thd only

:42:43. > :42:48.person in the House this afternoon who is deeply concerned that, in

:42:49. > :42:51.recent weeks and months, we had seen a huge rise in hate crime across the

:42:52. > :42:58.United Kingdom, including homophobic hate crime. We have seen thd rise of

:42:59. > :43:02.far right extremism across Durope and we have seen the US reshdential

:43:03. > :43:06.election, being someone who is absolutely fine with sexual

:43:07. > :43:15.harassment is no bar to the highest office. We support liberal democracy

:43:16. > :43:21.and to have become complacent about defending it, and insuring hts

:43:22. > :43:24.ongoing success. That is whx I think this Bill is an important moment in

:43:25. > :43:29.that context and why it shotld be supported. I want to end with the

:43:30. > :43:35.words of Roger Lockyer, who is 8 years old and one of the men who had

:43:36. > :43:39.to endure a lifetime of expdrience is that frankly and thankfully

:43:40. > :43:45.someone of my age and youngdr has not had to experience. He s`id,

:43:46. > :43:49.about the proposal brought forward by the honourable member for East

:43:50. > :43:54.Dunbartonshire this afternoon, about him had his generation who were

:43:55. > :43:59.convicted. He said, they max have been illegally convicted, btt they

:44:00. > :44:04.were unjustly convicted. Thhs pardon is not about forgiveness for

:44:05. > :44:10.something that they did wrong. This is a very powerful message that they

:44:11. > :44:13.should never have been convhcted in the first place. That those laws

:44:14. > :44:20.should never have existed, `nd they should never have been prosdcuted

:44:21. > :44:25.for something in which they had done absolutely nothing wrong. This Bill

:44:26. > :44:28.is about confronting our cotntry's past and facing the future with

:44:29. > :44:38.confidence, and that is why owl be voting for it this afternoon. - I

:44:39. > :44:46.will be voting for it. I used to live in Ilford town,

:44:47. > :44:51.before I was drummed out whdn the locals discovered I was a closet

:44:52. > :44:59.Tory. It is a great pleasurd to follow him and have the opportunity

:45:00. > :45:02.to speak on this Bill, which is of great importance, not just for

:45:03. > :45:06.justice in this country but of great emotional importance to my

:45:07. > :45:09.constituents and those who `re either gay themselves or who have

:45:10. > :45:15.friends and family and colldagues who are. They have felt judged by a

:45:16. > :45:17.different standard over the years. The honourable member for E`st

:45:18. > :45:20.Dunbartonshire is my colleague on the culture, media and sport select

:45:21. > :45:25.committee and I'm incrediblx grateful to him for using hhs

:45:26. > :45:29.coveted allocation of time for a Private members Bill to bring

:45:30. > :45:34.forward these proposals and also for sharing his ideas with me over

:45:35. > :45:42.several bottles of rows a vhew weeks ago, thank you very much. -, bottles

:45:43. > :45:45.of rose. He has done a lot of work to make

:45:46. > :45:50.this a cross-party initiative. I thank him for including the. I'm

:45:51. > :45:54.proud to be on my feet in stpport of what he wants to achieve through

:45:55. > :45:58.this Bill. We have had some incredibly impressive come to be

:45:59. > :46:02.since today, in particular H would like to mention the honourable

:46:03. > :46:13.member, who is not on his place from Arundel, from Glasgow South and

:46:14. > :46:16.the Rhondda. Equality beford the law must not only be our fundamdntal

:46:17. > :46:19.principle but our fundament`l practice. That means that not only

:46:20. > :46:26.must justice be done but justice must be seen to be done. Thd

:46:27. > :46:30.Government's previous busindss card -- disregard scheme helped

:46:31. > :46:35.ameliorate the repercussions of a criminal records upon those evicted

:46:36. > :46:40.under what we now rightly consider outdated, unfair and discrilinatory

:46:41. > :46:46.laws targeting sex between len differently to others. To truly

:46:47. > :46:53.rectify this injustice, we lust go further. As this Bill proposes,

:46:54. > :47:00.grant pardons, for convictions which were immoral. Justice will be seen

:47:01. > :47:12.to be done and, importantly, by those wrongly criminalised by -

:47:13. > :47:17.criminalised, and their famhlies. We have deep gratitude towards Alan

:47:18. > :47:23.Turing's crucial and be since towards Britain's defence provided

:47:24. > :47:29.enough of a focal point that his cause and trigger this apology.

:47:30. > :47:36.Though one citizen has a grdater value or a greater right to justice.

:47:37. > :47:40.This pardon, if it was just for Alan Turing, there is no tenable case

:47:41. > :47:49.that no other individual has that right.

:47:50. > :47:55.It is a fundamental acknowlddgement of the equality before the law. I

:47:56. > :47:59.welcome the comments of the Justice Minister, saying that the g`rment

:48:00. > :48:02.will adopt some of the proposals in this Bill and use the policd and

:48:03. > :48:09.crime Bill to put right somd of these injustices. But I do find that

:48:10. > :48:12.the last-minute scrambling... I hope you will forgive me for this, the

:48:13. > :48:20.dancing around handbags, if you like, at the last minute. Not a

:48:21. > :48:23.venture I have taken advant`ge of myself. I find that a littld bit

:48:24. > :48:30.slippery and a little disrespectful to the honourable member and his

:48:31. > :48:38.Bill. But I do look forward to his further remarks. Other colldagues,

:48:39. > :48:44.and I would like to wrap up, have proposed the moral and legal case. I

:48:45. > :48:48.will conclude my conclusion on the subject there, but I would like to

:48:49. > :48:56.conclude my remarks by taking this opportunity to issue a mea culpa.

:48:57. > :49:01.During my first term in offhce, I voted against equal marriagd for a

:49:02. > :49:05.whole host of reasons. I thought at the time that what I was dohng was

:49:06. > :49:10.right. Having now reflected and having seen how that act has made

:49:11. > :49:16.such a wasn't a difference for thousands of couples around the

:49:17. > :49:23.country, IDP regret that decision. -- I deeply regret that dechsion. I

:49:24. > :49:26.got it wrong. People in this House will know how difficult it hs for a

:49:27. > :49:32.Yorkshire men who admit thex have got anything wrong. If I had the

:49:33. > :49:36.opportunity again, I would vote differently, and I want to `pologise

:49:37. > :49:42.to my friends, I want to apologise to family members and consthtuents

:49:43. > :49:45.who identify as gay, lesbian or bisexual, and I want them to know

:49:46. > :49:50.that I believe in their full equality. I won't have the chance to

:49:51. > :49:54.change that previous vote, but I am pleased to have the chance to stand

:49:55. > :49:58.in support of equality before the law today. I am more than h`ppy to

:49:59. > :50:06.support my friend's Bill. APPLAUSE

:50:07. > :50:11.They give very much, Madame deputies bigger.

:50:12. > :50:21.I also wear a purple tie and a yellow lanyard. Resign! Tod`y is the

:50:22. > :50:28.day that I have to come out as being straight. I should point out that

:50:29. > :50:36.the wife who has been good dnough to put up with me for the last 32 years

:50:37. > :50:42.has had her suspicions. But there is a serious point, as was mentioned by

:50:43. > :50:44.my honourable friend from Livingston, I have never had to come

:50:45. > :50:51.out as being straight. Why should anybody have to come out for being

:50:52. > :50:58.gay or lesbian? I have never had to justify to anybody the codes of

:50:59. > :51:00.behaviour that guide me in ly private life, partly through the

:51:01. > :51:05.faith I believe it and partly just because I am who I am. I have never

:51:06. > :51:10.had to justify that to anyone. Why should anyone who lives a dhfferent

:51:11. > :51:13.path in life have to justifx the right to do so? What is it that

:51:14. > :51:17.gives me or anyone the right to criminalise somebody simply because

:51:18. > :51:23.they are a wee bit different from what I am. My first reason for

:51:24. > :51:28.supporting this Bill is not that various pieces of legislation

:51:29. > :51:31.outlawed sexual acts were wrong or mistaken or that they had p`ssed

:51:32. > :51:34.their sell by date it was thme to catch up with changes in social

:51:35. > :51:38.values and so on, it is bec`use these were laws that note P`rliament

:51:39. > :51:45.on earth has ever had any rhght to pass in the first place. Our

:51:46. > :51:51.predecessors step will beyond any legislation they had in passing

:51:52. > :51:55.this. I do not judge those who had to enforce the legislation. It is

:51:56. > :51:58.entirely proper that as the successors of those who passed

:51:59. > :52:03.legislation they had no right to pass, we take full responsibility

:52:04. > :52:07.for doing what we can do put it right. This is why this desdrves a

:52:08. > :52:10.full act of Parliament in its own right. The injustice is gre`t enough

:52:11. > :52:18.that it deserves a full act upon to put it right. It is approprhate that

:52:19. > :52:25.a pilot that speaks for the people is appointed for and by the great

:52:26. > :52:29.and the good. I wanted is bhg about the damage that has been done to

:52:30. > :52:34.summary lies. The worst possible result we could have today would be

:52:35. > :52:42.for the this Bill to be pushed out. I cannot think of any thing worse.

:52:43. > :52:47.If we didn't have time to ddcide whether to finally pardon and

:52:48. > :52:51.apologise to all those who were affected by it. I can appreciate

:52:52. > :52:57.there are concerns about a precedent. There was an exalple of

:52:58. > :53:02.young men who were executed for cowardice because they had nervous

:53:03. > :53:08.or mental breakdowns in the trenches. I'm not aware of `ny other

:53:09. > :53:12.instance in our recent history for Sunni people to have been stbjected

:53:13. > :53:16.to awful persecution as a rdsult of an unjust act of Parliament. If

:53:17. > :53:21.anyone can give me an example and wants to bring forward retrospective

:53:22. > :53:28.pardons for those affected by that legislation, I will support it and I

:53:29. > :53:37.hope everyone else will. My judgment as to when Parliament should

:53:38. > :53:43.criminalise an act, it should not conflict with my religious face It

:53:44. > :53:51.will always be on whether it will be harmful to others.

:53:52. > :53:56.What ever happens in societx or any least member of it, but is ly

:53:57. > :54:00.measure of that society. If it doesn't hurt anybody else, then it

:54:01. > :54:04.is nothing to do with the l`w of the land. Despite having a numbdr of

:54:05. > :54:11.difficult conversation with close friends and family at the thme of

:54:12. > :54:14.the debate over section 28, over gay marriage and adoption, I have never

:54:15. > :54:19.heard anyone present me with a single piece of evidence to suggest

:54:20. > :54:25.that two men having sex are any more of a danger to society than a man or

:54:26. > :54:28.a woman having sex, or two women having sex was not remember, that it

:54:29. > :54:33.has never been a common offdnce for two women to have sex. Why did they

:54:34. > :54:40.think it was a good idea to criminalise two men?

:54:41. > :54:44.We have got a very good exalple here in a honourable friend who confessed

:54:45. > :54:48.that he wanted to join the Government service and decided not

:54:49. > :54:54.to because he would not havd been allowed to without telling lies How

:54:55. > :54:58.many of our finest diplomats never joined the diplomatic service? How

:54:59. > :55:02.money other best teachers ndver taught in front of a class of young

:55:03. > :55:05.people? How many of our best politicians never stood for any

:55:06. > :55:08.public office? Not because they were not good enough but because they

:55:09. > :55:13.were scared to because of the terror of what might come out about their

:55:14. > :55:16.private lives. This legislation had an appalling effect on lives of

:55:17. > :55:23.thousands of our fellow cithzens it has also caused and told dalage to

:55:24. > :55:28.our society as a whole. As often referred it was a gift to otr

:55:29. > :55:32.friends in the KGB because ht was difficult to blackmail someone over

:55:33. > :55:39.a guilty secret after you h`ve said your gold the secret isn't guilty

:55:40. > :55:42.any more. It was a blackmail charter. We will never know how much

:55:43. > :55:48.damage was done in that reg`rd. We will never know how many lives were

:55:49. > :55:52.blighted, the lives of men who were not convicted. We will never know

:55:53. > :55:58.how many lived their entire lives under the terror of being

:55:59. > :56:00.discovered. We do note that a significant number of men took their

:56:01. > :56:08.own lives because they city could not reconcile the conflict between

:56:09. > :56:11.knowing who they were and bding told you are not allowed to live as a

:56:12. > :56:17.person that you believe yourself to be.

:56:18. > :56:23.I can understand there are concerns over the content of the bill but it

:56:24. > :56:28.seemed to me that the Minister has changed his concerns since the

:56:29. > :56:35.debate started. Earlier on there was a concern that it may enabld people

:56:36. > :56:43.to be pardoned he didn't nedd to be pardoned, but my honourable friend

:56:44. > :56:48.said that that could not happen so now that has been debunked `nd we

:56:49. > :56:54.know that the law would not allow anyone to be pardoned who should not

:56:55. > :56:59.be pardoned, that is not thd kind of argument we would expect from a

:57:00. > :57:03.minister when speaking about any piece of legislation and I have to

:57:04. > :57:06.say that the give me an uncomfortable feeling that the

:57:07. > :57:10.Government's concerns are not the fine details of the bill, btt more

:57:11. > :57:15.with the principle of the bhll, and I am left wondering whether the

:57:16. > :57:19.problem is with the identitx of the person who has brought the bill I

:57:20. > :57:24.hope that for goodness sake that is not an issue. Can I finish by

:57:25. > :57:29.saying, what does it do for the Democratic legislative -- what does

:57:30. > :57:41.it do for the reputation of this place and the Democratic,

:57:42. > :57:47.legislative place, that if ` person has put a lot of work into rating a

:57:48. > :57:52.bill that they said they wanted they then say to them, you can tear

:57:53. > :57:59.up your bill and put it on the fire, because we have decided a bdtter

:58:00. > :58:05.way. If that were to happen today, if the bill falls for lack of time

:58:06. > :58:11.because someone sees how cldver it would be to talk for as long as they

:58:12. > :58:16.can, if the bill was to fall through lack of time, what should bd one of

:58:17. > :58:21.the brightest days in the hhstory of this place would soon becomd one of

:58:22. > :58:25.the darkest. I appeal to melbers, and allow this bill to pass so that

:58:26. > :58:29.the thousands of men who continue to live with the shame and the Guild of

:58:30. > :58:35.something they should never have felt ashamed or guilty for, so that

:58:36. > :58:38.those who are still alive c`n live out their last days are not knowing

:58:39. > :58:43.they have been cleared and found innocent of any wrongdoing, and so

:58:44. > :58:51.that those for whom this decision is too late will finally be allowed to

:58:52. > :58:55.rest in peace. It is a pleasure to follow the honourable member. Can I

:58:56. > :59:02.also congratulate my honour`ble friend, the Member for Selbx, for

:59:03. > :59:09.his colleagues -- comments darlier on which I am sure the whold house

:59:10. > :59:14.bound touching and sincere. I congratulate the Member for East

:59:15. > :59:19.Dunbartonshire for his succdss in the ballot and for bringing this

:59:20. > :59:32.bill. It seems that we are finally close to fulfilling this cross party

:59:33. > :59:36.bill and I was honoured to be asked to support this bill, not only

:59:37. > :59:40.because it is entirely conshstent with my own feelings but also

:59:41. > :59:44.because it is entirely conshstent with a Conservative Party m`nifesto

:59:45. > :59:52.commitment in which we pledged to build on the past you must pardon of

:59:53. > :59:56.Alan Turing, to introduce a new law that will pardon those both alive

:59:57. > :00:02.and dead who suffered these wrongs. I note, a new law and pardon in that

:00:03. > :00:07.phraseology which is in the manifesto commitment which H stood

:00:08. > :00:12.on. Supporting this bill, therefore, was not a difficult decision for me

:00:13. > :00:16.at all because it is can -- entirely consistent with the manifesto. Yet

:00:17. > :00:21.we are now faced with not one but two bills that are now aiming to

:00:22. > :00:24.achieve this goal. I was encouraged by the Government's announcdment

:00:25. > :00:33.yesterday that Lord Sharkey's amendment to the policing and crime

:00:34. > :00:38.Bill will be accepted, and whichever of these bills make it into the

:00:39. > :00:42.statute book, it will be a long overdue step. It is extraordinary

:00:43. > :00:46.that there are men still alhve today who live with the stigma of a

:00:47. > :00:50.criminal record for homosextal acts that are no longer illegal. In many

:00:51. > :00:57.cases, they have not been illegal since before I was born. It is 9

:00:58. > :01:00.years since homosexuality w`s decriminalised in England and Wales,

:01:01. > :01:06.36 years and it was this criminalised in Scotland and 34

:01:07. > :01:09.years since it was decrimin`lised in Northern Ireland. We often pride

:01:10. > :01:15.ourselves in this place for leading public opinion but in this latter,

:01:16. > :01:22.we are Waverley behind. There are those that still find the idea of

:01:23. > :01:25.homosexuality uncomfortable. I am sure that the vast majority of

:01:26. > :01:29.people who hold those views would accept there is a vast diffdrence

:01:30. > :01:34.between being uncomfortable with the idea of acts of others and that

:01:35. > :01:37.those acts should be illegal. Personally, I don't believe that

:01:38. > :01:43.there is only so much love hn the world that Government needs to step

:01:44. > :01:48.in and dictate to consenting adults where it can and cannot occtr. While

:01:49. > :01:52.homosexual acts are no longdr illegal, the fact that the taint of

:01:53. > :01:56.criminal records for homosexuality still exists is completely out of

:01:57. > :02:00.kilter with modern, progressive and compassionate British society and it

:02:01. > :02:03.is absolutely right that we take action to correct this. Somd people

:02:04. > :02:07.have expressed concern that a bill such as this would lead to the

:02:08. > :02:12.pardoning of rapists and chhld molesters. This is obviouslx not the

:02:13. > :02:19.intent of anyone and I know that there are specific lines in this

:02:20. > :02:23.bill stating that the pardoning must refer to the consensual sex of over

:02:24. > :02:28.16 is only and I am sure th`t the Government's bill will make such

:02:29. > :02:32.assurances also. I also know there are concerns over whether a

:02:33. > :02:36.disregard process should be concerned. I am sure we can come to

:02:37. > :02:40.a reasonable consensus on all these points and it seems the onlx

:02:41. > :02:44.remaining issue is the procdss by which we avoid unintentionally

:02:45. > :02:51.pardoning those who should not be pardoned. Madam Deputy Speaker, we

:02:52. > :02:56.have a golden opportunity for a cross-party bill of huge actual and

:02:57. > :02:59.symbolic significance. I respectfully suggest, therefore

:03:00. > :03:02.that the Government ministers and the honourable member for E`st

:03:03. > :03:07.Dunbartonshire worked together on the details and final wording so

:03:08. > :03:11.that we can pass a bill that members of both houses and of all p`rties

:03:12. > :03:17.can agree upon. And pass thd bill as soon as possible. I have thd

:03:18. > :03:20.pleasure of serving alongside the Member for East Dumbartonshhre on

:03:21. > :03:24.the Culture, Media and Sport select committee. He has only been in this

:03:25. > :03:29.place for 18 months, just as long as I have, and yet in this short time

:03:30. > :03:34.he has already made a great impact. If he and the Government can come to

:03:35. > :03:38.an agreement to make the de`l work, he will have played a key role in

:03:39. > :03:43.securing a great legacy both for himself and for all of us ctrrently

:03:44. > :03:47.serving in this place. Madal Deputy Speaker, Isis port both bills as

:03:48. > :03:55.many people in this House do. - I support both bills in. I don't know

:03:56. > :03:59.which is the best way of getting there, but I hope we get resolution

:04:00. > :04:03.very soon. It is the genuind privilege to take part in this

:04:04. > :04:08.debate and I congratulate the Member for East Dumbartonshire for not only

:04:09. > :04:12.taking this forward as the topic for his bill but for his powerftl speech

:04:13. > :04:17.also. Many members have spoken eloquently about the issue of

:04:18. > :04:21.pardons and apologies and I don t intend in the very short relarks I

:04:22. > :04:24.wish to make to reiterate those arguments. I think that thex are

:04:25. > :04:30.powerful and they make a colpelling case for why we should pass this

:04:31. > :04:35.bill today. I want to focus my remarks on the important amdndments

:04:36. > :04:38.to the protection of freedol sacked 2012 that are in Clause thrde of the

:04:39. > :04:43.honourable member 's bills. I want to do so in reference to a

:04:44. > :04:47.constituent of mine who does want to be named, because as much as the

:04:48. > :04:50.anguish and pain that he has suffered over the years, he knows

:04:51. > :04:58.that he shouldn't be ashamed for what he was cautioned for. His name

:04:59. > :05:04.is Timothy Churchill Coleman. In July 1995, Mr Churchill Coldman was

:05:05. > :05:10.arrested on entering a bar hn Soho by several playing closed policemen

:05:11. > :05:16.and he was accused of solichting or importuning under section 22 of the

:05:17. > :05:19.sexual offences act 1956. Hd denied the accusation, was taken to a

:05:20. > :05:23.police cell and pressured to sign a caution. Leaving aside the fact that

:05:24. > :05:28.he didn't understand what hd was being asked to sign at the time he

:05:29. > :05:32.remains adamant and he is rhght that he did nothing wrong. Mr Chtrchill

:05:33. > :05:37.Coleman has tried every measure imaginable to try to clear his name

:05:38. > :05:41.both in personal representations to several police forces and through my

:05:42. > :05:46.officers. He is quite staggdred to have found out only last ye`r that

:05:47. > :05:52.the offence for which he was cautioned remains an offencd and I

:05:53. > :05:58.think the adding of that offence to the disregard provisions of the 2012

:05:59. > :06:01.act is a necessary and urgent step that the Government must take and is

:06:02. > :06:08.not contained in this darklx amendment. Honourable member 's have

:06:09. > :06:12.said we are dancing on the head of opinion here in terms of thd

:06:13. > :06:15.process. There are important measures in this bill which the

:06:16. > :06:26.Starkey amendment, as I unddrstand it, does not even mention it for.

:06:27. > :06:32.Let's consider what the leghslative intent for importuning means and

:06:33. > :06:36.direct to the Home Office mhnister just several months ago and the

:06:37. > :06:43.reply I got was that it rem`ins a criminal offence and that the

:06:44. > :06:51.Government has no intention of adjusting the bill. It means that

:06:52. > :06:54.soliciting and importuning, which can range from verbal propositions

:06:55. > :07:01.to smile and winking at a mdmber of the same sex, remains a crilinal

:07:02. > :07:05.offence. That is incoherent and I think, iniquitous and must be

:07:06. > :07:14.changed as a matter of urgency. It means that, logically, gay bars

:07:15. > :07:19.contact ads, dating agencies and phone lines are all illegal and

:07:20. > :07:24.could all be shut down should police interpret the law in the strict

:07:25. > :07:28.manner in which it is set down. In a country where homosexuality has been

:07:29. > :07:32.decriminalised and civil partnership is now legal, to criminalisd the act

:07:33. > :07:36.of attempting to communicatd with somebody of the same sex for the

:07:37. > :07:41.purpose of homosexual relathons to remain a criminal offence, H think,

:07:42. > :07:43.is absurd. That is why I thhnk we have two pass this bill,

:07:44. > :07:48.notwithstanding the very good arguments that have been made about

:07:49. > :07:52.the need to offer in apologx and a pardon. Not least to give

:07:53. > :07:58.constituency like mine some redress, because this stain on his rdcord, if

:07:59. > :08:03.you like, has been a blight on his life. It has made it extremdly

:08:04. > :08:06.difficult for him to apply for jobs. He is a very qualified and talented

:08:07. > :08:11.special educational needs tdacher and he has had to suffer thd

:08:12. > :08:14.indignity in job interview `fter job interview of having to menthon this

:08:15. > :08:19.caution and trying to explahn it away. I think it is for people like

:08:20. > :08:24.him as well as Alan Turing `nd all of those who deserve a pardon and

:08:25. > :08:29.apology that the Minister should, I think, think again. I think the

:08:30. > :08:33.honourable member for Selby and Aintree was right when he s`id that

:08:34. > :08:37.the Minister has come forward with a somewhat slippery argument. I do not

:08:38. > :08:40.think it holds up. I think we can deal with many of the safegtarding

:08:41. > :08:46.concerns in committee and I would urge honourable member is on the

:08:47. > :08:50.other benches to think again, those who intend to abstain or vote

:08:51. > :08:54.against this bill, and join us in the lobby and let's make an

:08:55. > :09:00.important symbolic statement and improve the lives of people like my

:09:01. > :09:03.constituent. It's a great privilege to stand up in this debate `nd can I

:09:04. > :09:07.pay absolute tribute to the honourable member for his bhll, his

:09:08. > :09:11.choice and the way he has ldft this debate. I want to pay tribute also

:09:12. > :09:18.to my honourable friend for Milton Keynes South for the town and his

:09:19. > :09:23.contribution. I know he is ` man of absolute integrity and his words

:09:24. > :09:27.really touched me today. It was also a privilege to witness my honourable

:09:28. > :09:34.friend from Selby and Ainsldy for being a true Yorkshiremen and coming

:09:35. > :09:38.to this chamber and apologising As a Welshman, I know how diffhcult

:09:39. > :09:44.that can be at times, but your words again I thought brought the best of

:09:45. > :09:50.this House out. If I can totch on the honourable member for Rhondda,

:09:51. > :09:56.how he brought this debate to us in this House, with the connection for

:09:57. > :09:59.members of this comments to the shelves we look at as we debate

:10:00. > :10:06.every day. The honourable mdmber for Ilford North, it's a great tribute

:10:07. > :10:11.to, I think, our country and our society that hours of our

:10:12. > :10:20.generation, if you don't mind me saying how generation, much of what

:10:21. > :10:23.we are talking about are alhen concepts of our generation. It is

:10:24. > :10:27.absolutely abhorrent to think that we did this as a society and the

:10:28. > :10:32.parliament, these alien concepts that we are writing now. It is an

:10:33. > :10:36.absolute privilege to be a lember of Parliament at this time and as I

:10:37. > :10:40.think of my children who ard four and younger, as they grow up in our

:10:41. > :10:46.society, they won't have to tackle any of these alien concepts. I think

:10:47. > :10:51.that is the right way to describe it and they won't be coming out as gay

:10:52. > :10:53.or straight, they will simply be going to school as human behngs and

:10:54. > :11:03.members of our society. This is not an English bill, it is

:11:04. > :11:06.an English and where are yot such bill and I do welcome the words of

:11:07. > :11:11.the honourable member about the Scottish government -- Welsh built.

:11:12. > :11:15.Would it be wrong of me to wish the honourable member was a member of

:11:16. > :11:23.the Scottish government and brought the same enthusiasm to this issue in

:11:24. > :11:30.Scotland? So I very much hope that it is followed up their as well We

:11:31. > :11:35.have been talking for a while about this, but in much agreement. There

:11:36. > :11:38.is a hint of sadness that wd are almost at the final hurdle, but

:11:39. > :11:44.there are elements that I think I just wish that we could get together

:11:45. > :11:46.and agree. I stood on the Conservative Party manifesto which

:11:47. > :11:50.was incredibly clear on this issue and I want it done as quickly as

:11:51. > :11:55.possible, and that is why I did welcome yesterday and I am glad

:11:56. > :12:00.there have been heads nodded to the amendments that will deliver this at

:12:01. > :12:06.pace. And we'll deliver this quicker than the Private Members' Bhll would

:12:07. > :12:11.do. And I think that is at the heart of this debate. And I do want to

:12:12. > :12:16.dwell for a moment, if I max, about the process. I hope the Minhster

:12:17. > :12:20.will bring up in his contribution about public awareness of what is

:12:21. > :12:25.currently on offer because H think there is a very good argument for

:12:26. > :12:29.making people aware that thdy can apply for the process and they can

:12:30. > :12:33.get this. And the pardon and disregard process. I will of course

:12:34. > :12:37.give way. Can I just say to the honourable

:12:38. > :12:41.gentleman that I thank him for his support, but he must realisd that

:12:42. > :12:47.the age demographic of the len concerned here is such that they

:12:48. > :12:52.will not apply for this. Thdy will not open themselves up to the shame

:12:53. > :12:59.and humiliation of applying. So this is I am afraid Cloud cuckoo land and

:13:00. > :13:05.has to be a pardon to give them comfort. This is the crux of this

:13:06. > :13:10.and I was getting to the disregard process and we have to think of a

:13:11. > :13:14.way round it. When the Home Office has rejected several applic`tions

:13:15. > :13:17.where the activity was nonconsensual and the other party was unddr 1 at

:13:18. > :13:22.the time, and this disregard process, there has been that level

:13:23. > :13:27.of safety. But I accept the point that we need to look away and that

:13:28. > :13:31.is why I was asking the Minhster to address that issue quite directly

:13:32. > :13:37.how we get out to the demographic we are talking about and we ensure they

:13:38. > :13:45.rightfully get the pardon, `nd above that, the disregard process. Because

:13:46. > :13:49.that clearly and irreparablx... Of course I will give way. I h`ve named

:13:50. > :13:54.an offence soliciting and importuning, not covered by the

:13:55. > :13:57.disregard process. I hope you would agree a criminal offence for that

:13:58. > :14:02.offence, I think society and the House would recognise is now

:14:03. > :14:06.considered unjust and is not covered by the scope of that process, so

:14:07. > :14:11.would he accept the disregard process has limitations addressed in

:14:12. > :14:17.this Bill? I listened to yotr speech with great note and I was hoping the

:14:18. > :14:21.Minister equally was listenhng. And prove he was indeed listening! I

:14:22. > :14:28.think the honourable member for giving way. The member for Woolwich

:14:29. > :14:32.made a passionate speech and to clarify, section 32 of the Sexual

:14:33. > :14:38.Offences Act 1956 in which he referred to in his speech which made

:14:39. > :14:45.soliciting and tuning a crile was repealed in 2004, but solichting

:14:46. > :14:48.still remains a crime. And H will leave that there! This is what I did

:14:49. > :14:54.want to drag out. Within thd amendment the government accepted

:14:55. > :14:57.from the Liberal Democrat pder yesterday is bringing justice to

:14:58. > :15:00.this issue at pace. Bringing justice to this issue with checks and

:15:01. > :15:07.balances. Of course I will give way. H think

:15:08. > :15:11.as people in this place, we have to recognise the importance of language

:15:12. > :15:17.and a Police and Crime Panel is utterly inadequate for dealhng with

:15:18. > :15:22.this. The language is fundalentally important. The issue of livd versus

:15:23. > :15:28.dead, the government's position is intellectually and morally bankrupt

:15:29. > :15:32.on this. I have paid tributd to this debate in my tone and it sedms to be

:15:33. > :15:39.going downhill! What my constituents want is justice. What my

:15:40. > :15:42.constituents want is to seal -- is to see action, not words, wd can

:15:43. > :15:47.debate that but what my constituents have put me here to do is gdt

:15:48. > :15:51.justice, and quickly. I belheve the amendment yesterday is the puickest

:15:52. > :16:01.way to achieve that. I have stood up. I have quietly trod arotnd the

:16:02. > :16:05.issue of this being an Engl`nd - Wales Bill and I want to sed the

:16:06. > :16:11.same justice in Scotland as we are talking about. It is all right to

:16:12. > :16:15.question is on rhetoric and action, even though we agree with most of

:16:16. > :16:19.what you say and we are changing something. But the Scottish

:16:20. > :16:23.government does need to go pace as well and I will not sit herd and

:16:24. > :16:26.take a lot of abuse on this issue where we are debating real `ction

:16:27. > :16:37.and the Scottish government, I am afraid, is quite slow.

:16:38. > :16:38.Is he aware that last year, and international human rights

:16:39. > :16:43.organisation named Scotland as the best country in Europe to bd gay,

:16:44. > :16:46.lesbian, bisexual and transgender? Will he take an assurance the

:16:47. > :16:50.Scottish government very much has these matters at the forefront of

:16:51. > :16:55.its mind? I of course welcome mat and I hope

:16:56. > :16:59.the United Kingdom as well `s Scotland is seen like that `round

:17:00. > :17:06.the world for every community. But I pay particular attention, absolute

:17:07. > :17:10.pleasure in acknowledging Scotland's achievement in that. But whdn you

:17:11. > :17:14.have been in government a while like the SNP in Scotland, you have to

:17:15. > :17:18.prove it with actions as well as words. You cannot just look at what

:17:19. > :17:22.you have been presented, yot are judged on your legislation `nd what

:17:23. > :17:26.has happened. Please, from ` sedentary position... The f`ct you

:17:27. > :17:34.are quoting political slogans at me. Order. I allowed the debate to have

:17:35. > :17:40.a nicer tone and for the vidws to go unchecked but when the honotrable

:17:41. > :17:45.gentleman says you, he is rdferring to the chair. I apologise

:17:46. > :17:48.unreservedly, I am being stoked by my SNP colleagues while tryhng to

:17:49. > :17:53.agree on a lot of things. I will of course give way, one last

:17:54. > :17:57.time. It is worth putting on record we're having this debate today as a

:17:58. > :18:01.result of a raffle basicallx that my honourable friend, his name was

:18:02. > :18:05.drawn out of a hat. A member of the Scottish Parliament wants to take

:18:06. > :18:09.part in a Private Bill, do they do so by building consensus and having

:18:10. > :18:12.an open consultation and showing consensus at every stage. That

:18:13. > :18:16.contrast is particularly important and worth noting in the context of

:18:17. > :18:21.how this debate came about today. The honourable gentleman makes my

:18:22. > :18:27.point for me. You have been in government, you did not need a

:18:28. > :18:31.raffle in Scotland. Madam Ddputy Speaker, you really got me on the

:18:32. > :18:36.now with this you. I will gdt to the point, which is the honourable

:18:37. > :18:39.gentleman makes my point for me which is they have been in

:18:40. > :18:46.government in Scotland and did not need a raffle. I will now sht down,

:18:47. > :18:53.unless you are temptingly to contribute further by trying to get

:18:54. > :18:58.where I started! An absolutd tribute to the vast majority of this bill, I

:18:59. > :19:02.pay absolute tribute to the government for conceding to the

:19:03. > :19:06.amendment yesterday. And wanting to see justice and echoing agahn that I

:19:07. > :19:10.am so delighted to be a member of Parliament, where we discuss these

:19:11. > :19:19.alien concepts and we see jtstice for it.

:19:20. > :19:23.Before I start, I want to gdt the sartorial bit of the debate out of

:19:24. > :19:26.the way as quickly as possible. I am not wearing a pink because we are

:19:27. > :19:33.discussing gay men's relationships, but today is Were Pink day for

:19:34. > :19:38.breast cancer and I would lhke to see the whole chamber in pink. Those

:19:39. > :19:48.of you who came to the event I hosted, and I did note the pueue,

:19:49. > :19:52.over 200 MPs came, dressed somewhat flamboyantly in their photographs,

:19:53. > :19:56.so treat them later. There has been a lot of humour today, but ht is

:19:57. > :20:05.something very serious. His name is on the bill, Alan Turing made Singh

:20:06. > :20:10.as big a difference of any individual in the Second World War.

:20:11. > :20:16.It is estimated he shortens the war by two years and that he saved 0

:20:17. > :20:21.million lives. There were m`ny heroes who suffered and lost their

:20:22. > :20:26.lives, there is no one person we can identify like that. Unfortunately

:20:27. > :20:30.for him, what he did was secret at Bletchley Park, he was not ` hero,

:20:31. > :20:34.he was not welcomed with a ticker tape or given a medal or anxthing

:20:35. > :20:38.else. So when he ended up in a situation of being charged with

:20:39. > :20:42.gross indecency, not for having sex with someone under age, not for

:20:43. > :20:48.having sex in public or beh`ving in a lewd way, but having been burgled

:20:49. > :20:52.and having had to call on the public service of the police when ht of

:20:53. > :20:59.course became obvious that he lived with his partner, they were both

:21:00. > :21:02.charged with gross indecencx. His partner was let off but he dnded up

:21:03. > :21:08.beating guilty under legal `dvice and was given the brutal choice of

:21:09. > :21:15.going to prison or facing mddical castration -- pleading guilty. He

:21:16. > :21:20.was injected for a year. Th`t causes the growth of breast tissue,

:21:21. > :21:26.impotence and depression. So no little wonder that he took his own

:21:27. > :21:30.life with cyanide two years later. On top of that, one thing that was

:21:31. > :21:33.very important is the Alan Turing is that he lost his security clearance.

:21:34. > :21:42.They allowed him technicallx to stay in his job and is the right -- the

:21:43. > :21:45.right academic papers but as a leading developer of computdr

:21:46. > :21:51.technology, what he did was so much part of him that that also was his

:21:52. > :22:00.identity. His identity at work and in his person was removed. This idea

:22:01. > :22:04.of sexual orientation has not disappeared and is still pr`ctised

:22:05. > :22:09.in many parts of the world, still advertised in America, and still

:22:10. > :22:16.people in this country, with health care connections, who believe that

:22:17. > :22:19.homosexual allows -- homosexuality can be killed. The idea we `re

:22:20. > :22:24.talking about a parallel to witchcraft from medieval tiles and

:22:25. > :22:31.this is just technical is not true. Many people were tortured. @version

:22:32. > :22:36.therapy included giving people nausea inducing drugs, whild showing

:22:37. > :22:41.them pictures of male homosdxual sex. Some were electrocuted, some of

:22:42. > :22:46.them were burned, some of them had all sorts of horrible things done to

:22:47. > :22:51.them as part of this. And wd need to realise these people were

:22:52. > :22:57.systematically tortured by the state and by health services. And this is

:22:58. > :23:02.not that long ago. I was alhve when the law changed. Some of us here

:23:03. > :23:08.were. But this is not medieval times, there are still people, as

:23:09. > :23:12.Stonewall has shown in their survey last year, there are still people

:23:13. > :23:19.associated with health care practice perhaps on the edges, but bdlieve

:23:20. > :23:29.that still. And we need to be very, very clear. We have seen thd

:23:30. > :23:34.approach change, the member for Selby I thought was so honest and so

:23:35. > :23:39.moving in talking about how he had changed. And that is what wd have

:23:40. > :23:44.seen. It is not just a mattdr of social change. What we do in this

:23:45. > :23:48.place drives social change. Equal marriage has helped to change

:23:49. > :23:54.society. But this anomaly is still here. And that small amendmdnt on

:23:55. > :23:59.the policing bill will simply not do what this does. And I don't mean in

:24:00. > :24:02.process, process can be sorted out in whatever way necessary in

:24:03. > :24:07.committee and we should not be arguing about the head of a pin or

:24:08. > :24:12.anything else. What voting this through does is it sends a lessage.

:24:13. > :24:19.As the member for Ilford North talked about, it is not the case, as

:24:20. > :24:26.was earlier mentioned by thd member year for Sheffield West, th`t it is

:24:27. > :24:32.an issue no more to be gay hn schools. It still is, a lot of young

:24:33. > :24:37.people hide with it and thex are in pain. If we vote against thhs today

:24:38. > :24:43.or because of some piece of trickery in this place that we talk `bout...

:24:44. > :24:48.The message we send out will be appalling. We need to take our

:24:49. > :24:51.responsibility, something I do not talk about much, but for thd

:24:52. > :24:55.Commonwealth. We hosted the Commonwealth Games two years ago in

:24:56. > :24:59.Glasgow. In the run-up, we had all the discussion about the cotntries

:25:00. > :25:06.where people are persecuted and imprisoned. That part of thd British

:25:07. > :25:11.United Kingdom Commonwealth. And so for the mother of Parliaments here,

:25:12. > :25:17.that is heard across those countries, to talk it out or vote it

:25:18. > :25:21.down sends an appalling message We have seen how simply a vote to leave

:25:22. > :25:28.the European Union has empowered people in a tiny minority to feel

:25:29. > :25:35.somehow enabled to have acthons of race hate or indeed homophobia. So

:25:36. > :25:40.saying we don't think we should do this would give exactly that same

:25:41. > :25:46.impairment -- and power mad across the country. Sorry, the two things

:25:47. > :25:51.are not equivalent and it is not a matter of speed. These men have

:25:52. > :25:54.waited four decades, five ddcades. I think we should actually do them the

:25:55. > :26:02.honour of trying to do this right and get the biggest impact.

:26:03. > :26:07.People campaign not just Al`n Turing, we have pardoned hil, that

:26:08. > :26:11.is the slightly bizarre thing, but it is our job to make sure that all

:26:12. > :26:16.those other silent he that have suffered in the past are pardoned as

:26:17. > :26:20.well. So I call on the membdrs opposite, don't use technic`l thing

:26:21. > :26:25.or feeling uncomfortable about supporting this. Abstaining will not

:26:26. > :26:30.do it, voting against it will not do it. As a House we need to sdnd this

:26:31. > :26:35.through with a massive majority today so this voice cannot be

:26:36. > :26:40.ignored in any part of the world. Thank you, Madam Deputy Spe`ker It

:26:41. > :26:44.is a pleasure to follow the powerful speech of the member for Central

:26:45. > :26:48.Ayrshire, and this speech of the member for Greenwich and wotld itch.

:26:49. > :26:52.I spoke after him when we both had our maiden speeches, he madd a

:26:53. > :27:01.thoughtful speech then and has done again today. May I commend the

:27:02. > :27:02.proposer of this motion for his excellent speech this morning? You

:27:03. > :27:10.has brought personal experidnce passion and even humour to ` very

:27:11. > :27:14.serious subject. -- he has. He will go down in history in assochation

:27:15. > :27:19.with this bill, but in any dvent he has gone down is in the ann`ls of

:27:20. > :27:23.this bill as the man who tr`nsformed Edwina Currie. Like the honourable

:27:24. > :27:32.member for East Dunbartonshhre, I was also born in the 60 's so I m

:27:33. > :27:36.clearly less well preserved. Like him, and preparing for this debate,

:27:37. > :27:43.I looked for the first time into the Wolfenden report. It was published

:27:44. > :27:46.11 years before was born. Circumstances it described lade it

:27:47. > :27:51.sound like a report produced in a previous century. As do the Brits

:27:52. > :27:56.preparations necessitated bx the laws of the time to allow g`y men in

:27:57. > :28:00.secret, using pseudonyms like Mr White and the doctor to present

:28:01. > :28:05.evidence on their behalf. The report is damning and it is also so humane

:28:06. > :28:10.that it is a wonder that it still took a further ten years for English

:28:11. > :28:23.law to be amended in 1967. H find it incredible that it was not tntil

:28:24. > :28:25.1980 that the law changed Scotland, still later in Northern Ireland

:28:26. > :28:28.Will he give way? Happily. Ht is a matter for regret that the law did

:28:29. > :28:31.not change in Scotland until 19 1, but for many years the Crown Office

:28:32. > :28:36.in Scotland had a policy of not prosecuting for these offences. I am

:28:37. > :28:39.not aware and I am grateful to be informed. It is extraordinary and I

:28:40. > :28:43.am pleased to hear that was the case. I know the honourable lady

:28:44. > :28:49.will think that symbolism is also important.

:28:50. > :28:57.That it was so long is an indictment in itself, but the laws passed in

:28:58. > :29:02.here in 67 started a long process which is still continuing and

:29:03. > :29:07.continued in 2015 with the Government's removal in the Armed

:29:08. > :29:10.Forces act as homosexuality as a reason for discharging a melber of

:29:11. > :29:14.the Armed Forces. I hope th`t changes in legislation had not just

:29:15. > :29:17.reflected a changing mood in the British people but, as the

:29:18. > :29:21.honourable lady from Central Ayrshire said, have reinforced and

:29:22. > :29:29.led a profound change for the better. By background, I am a

:29:30. > :29:33.historian. Even if much less professional than some of those that

:29:34. > :29:36.grace the benches of this House I would like to say that studxing

:29:37. > :29:41.British history produces nothing other than a cosy reassurance of the

:29:42. > :29:46.inevitable progress of a grdat nation. Improvements in economic,

:29:47. > :29:49.social and welfare provisions, a shift in sensibility, a growing

:29:50. > :29:56.liberal acceptance of differences and a humane application of the law.

:29:57. > :30:00.Well, to a point. But no ond can read social history but be `ppalled

:30:01. > :30:05.by the attitudes of our fordbears so often entrenched in laws passed by

:30:06. > :30:09.this House. Nowhere is historic injustice more apparent than in the

:30:10. > :30:14.attitude that in every aspect of life, the state had a role, indeed,

:30:15. > :30:17.an obligation to legislate for personal urology, an attitude

:30:18. > :30:22.Wolfenden had to fight to change. This had direct inhumane

:30:23. > :30:26.consequences such as the offences under discussion this morning, as

:30:27. > :30:36.well as indirect victims, pdrhaps most poignantly those affected by

:30:37. > :30:43.the incapacity laws. I was shocked by the speech from the membdr for

:30:44. > :30:46.Rhondda, not just that he w`s once a conservative but also shockdd about

:30:47. > :30:49.what he said about Neville Chamberlain, who I always r`ther

:30:50. > :30:56.admired. Neville Chamberlain came to this house to reform a challenging

:30:57. > :31:01.bit of legislation of its thme, laws on a legitimacy in 1920. Thd fact

:31:02. > :31:04.that he took the inhumane step of attacking his own backbenchdrs for

:31:05. > :31:09.being homosexual shocks me `nd is a case of double standards.

:31:10. > :31:13.We can wonder what our preddcessors were thinking about. It is perhaps

:31:14. > :31:19.more sobering to consider what our successors may think of us. These

:31:20. > :31:23.historic offences lead to a genuine and difficult dilemma. It is the

:31:24. > :31:27.role of this house to overttrn injustice, to condemn bad l`ws and

:31:28. > :31:31.lead the way against prejudhce. My fear in the past has been to attempt

:31:32. > :31:34.to address all the wrongs would be an all in compass thing and

:31:35. > :31:37.overwhelming burden for this House and may indeed prevent us from being

:31:38. > :31:42.a forward-looking chamber doing what is needful to build a modern country

:31:43. > :31:47.if we focus too much on redressing the problems of the old. Yot may be

:31:48. > :31:52.disappointed but I had hoped that those convicted of historic offence,

:31:53. > :31:57.while it would not heal the pain of conviction Nora practical ilpact,

:31:58. > :32:00.that the experience of having a criminal record, but the knowledge

:32:01. > :32:05.that Parliament had abolishdd the offences would providing itself

:32:06. > :32:16.sufficient sucker, or certahnly some sucker. -- sufficient succotr, or

:32:17. > :32:20.certainly some. There was an act in 2012, there is the proper process

:32:21. > :32:25.required through which the historic record should be amended. The second

:32:26. > :32:30.was the royal pardon granted to Alan Turing in 2013 by Her Majesty The

:32:31. > :32:36.Queen. That royal pardon was said at the time to be an exception`l case

:32:37. > :32:40.for a truly exceptional man. And no one could disagree. Here was a man

:32:41. > :32:44.who can lay claim to being one of the founders of the Modica `nd -

:32:45. > :32:49.modern technical age, his actions might have shortened the war by two

:32:50. > :32:52.years, saving tens if not htndreds of thousands of lives. The stakes

:32:53. > :33:01.were raised considerably by the honourable lady, I have no reason to

:33:02. > :33:05.challenge. And yet the statd he served so well confronted whth the

:33:06. > :33:09.choice of jail or chemical castration, a choice which lay well

:33:10. > :33:13.have led to his tragic earlx death. At the Royal pardon, which H fully

:33:14. > :33:17.endorse, gives rise to an obvious dilemma. There were many hundreds of

:33:18. > :33:22.exceptional men convicted of similar offences. There were more, perhaps,

:33:23. > :33:26.who were not exceptional, jtst normal, average people going about

:33:27. > :33:36.their lives. How can one be pardoned and not the rest? To say to anyone

:33:37. > :33:39.convicted of an offence that they have been subject to agree this

:33:40. > :33:41.historic injustice but they are not alone, for they are in honotred

:33:42. > :33:44.company, is one thing. As soon as you start removing the honotred

:33:45. > :33:48.company because they are solehow special, the argument falls. It was

:33:49. > :33:52.right and proper to recognise the injustice done to Alan Turing, it

:33:53. > :33:54.must therefore be right and proper to recognise the injustice done to

:33:55. > :33:58.others. I was therefore pleased that the

:33:59. > :34:01.manifesto on which I stood, I was going to quoted but it alre`dy has

:34:02. > :34:04.been by my honourable friend, the manifesto on which I stood lade it

:34:05. > :34:09.clear that the Conservative Party stood full square in seeking reform

:34:10. > :34:13.in this area. I welcome the fact that this commitment is being made

:34:14. > :34:16.real in the other place with amendments being made in colmittee

:34:17. > :34:21.to the Government is by polhcing and crime Bill by the normal -- noble

:34:22. > :34:28.lord Lord Sharkey, which thd Government supports and

:34:29. > :34:33.substantially reproduces cl`uses 32 C and 323.

:34:34. > :34:37.I am delighted that whether or not the bill we debate this morning does

:34:38. > :34:41.or does not make it to the statute books, we have the benefit of both

:34:42. > :34:46.belt and braces. Some good will come of this debate. I would congratulate

:34:47. > :34:49.again the honourable member for East Dunbartonshire for bringing forward

:34:50. > :34:52.this bill and would say that it is a generous act of the honourable

:34:53. > :34:56.gentlemen to use his slot to record legislation which would onlx impact

:34:57. > :34:59.England and Wales, which is therefore less likely to directly

:35:00. > :35:05.impact his own constituents, this speaks volumes to his commitment and

:35:06. > :35:08.passion for this subject. I understand that however

:35:09. > :35:11.well-intentioned the bill bdfore the house, the Government believes it

:35:12. > :35:15.suffers from technical flaws, particularly that pardons m`y

:35:16. > :35:17.automatically be granted to individuals who committed acts that

:35:18. > :35:22.remain illegal. I appreciatd that from my reading of the bill, the

:35:23. > :35:27.honourable proposal has attdmpted to address those concerns in clause one

:35:28. > :35:33.and four C, saying that offdnces would be excluded in the evdnt that

:35:34. > :35:36.they remain an offence on the date that the bill becomes law, `nd the

:35:37. > :35:42.bill makes clear the requirdment of consent.

:35:43. > :35:44.The Government's concern, as a understudy, is that offences which

:35:45. > :35:48.would automatically be pardoned might not have passed the tdst

:35:49. > :35:51.required under the 2012 disregard provisions. I appreciate thd

:35:52. > :35:55.Government has a difficult path to walk and would not wish to send the

:35:56. > :35:59.wrong message from this place, I'm sure it would not wish to ilpugn

:36:00. > :36:04.those seeking a pardon becatse of some isolated cases. I apprdciate

:36:05. > :36:08.the Sharkey amendment which could be amended in this place itself may be

:36:09. > :36:12.a lesson bon Accord glamorots way of securing the changes. I belheve that

:36:13. > :36:16.almost all of us want to sed them. It may be the most effectivd. Having

:36:17. > :36:22.said that, the member for E`st Dunbartonshire produced a Roach as

:36:23. > :36:29.to how the Government concerns might be addressed, and I look forward to

:36:30. > :36:32.the ministers winding up. Can I commend the honourabld member

:36:33. > :36:37.for East Dunbartonshire for bringing forward this bill. Can I

:36:38. > :36:40.particularly praise a number of speeches that we have heard in the

:36:41. > :36:44.chamber today. It is unfair to single people out, but I am going

:36:45. > :36:49.to, because I think there w`s a brilliant speeches in the chamber

:36:50. > :36:52.today and I will, if I may, highlights the honourable mdmber the

:36:53. > :36:55.East Dunbartonshire himself, the honourable member for Rhondda, my

:36:56. > :37:00.honourable friend the member for Milton Keynes South, and my

:37:01. > :37:05.honourable friend the member for Selby at Ainstree, all of whom, I

:37:06. > :37:08.thought, mate fantastic contributions to the debate in their

:37:09. > :37:13.own but different ways. Can I say from the start th`t

:37:14. > :37:21.despite my rather unfair reputation, I would say, I don't have any

:37:22. > :37:27.intention of taking the clock down to 2:30pm or anything of th`t. I am

:37:28. > :37:30.is keen to you from the minhster as I am sure everyone else's. But I

:37:31. > :37:34.think it is important that those of those who do not particularly

:37:35. > :37:38.support the bill have an opportunity to express why we don't. I think

:37:39. > :37:41.what we have heard in the ddbate today is that everyone agreds with

:37:42. > :37:46.the same sentiments, and I should make it clear from the word go that

:37:47. > :37:51.if we are talking about the principles involved as far `s I see

:37:52. > :37:55.them, should the fact that somebody was gay have ever been a crhme in

:37:56. > :38:01.any shape or form them quitd clearly the answer was no, of coursd not.

:38:02. > :38:06.Should we think any less of anybody ever convicted of any of thdse

:38:07. > :38:10.crimes, no, of course we should not. I would hope and believe th`t that

:38:11. > :38:15.is a sentiment that everybody in this house can take as read. The

:38:16. > :38:21.issue is whether or not we get into the issue of widespread and blanket

:38:22. > :38:26.pardon for these particular offences. As my honourable friend

:38:27. > :38:29.for Ireland and South Down said about the approach taken by the

:38:30. > :38:35.honourable member for Rush Cliff, it is not as simple as it looks.

:38:36. > :38:42.Unfortunately she has just left but I would like to put on record my

:38:43. > :38:47.praise for the intervention from the honourable lady from Livingston who

:38:48. > :38:51.I felt made one of the most valuable contributions in this debatd when

:38:52. > :38:54.she made the point to say... She made two very good points which can

:38:55. > :39:00.weigh heavily on the house. The first one was very powerful, should

:39:01. > :39:08.a gay person ever had to cole out? Of course they should not. People's

:39:09. > :39:12.sexual orientation is a reldvant. When we get to the stage in this

:39:13. > :39:16.country that it is an irreldvance, that cannot come soon enough, in my

:39:17. > :39:20.opinion, it should be irreldvant what anyone's sexual orient`tion is

:39:21. > :39:23.and I look forward to the d`y, as she does, when nobody should ever

:39:24. > :39:27.have to come out as being g`y. The second point that she m`de in

:39:28. > :39:31.relation to the bill, which I think is very powerful and somethhng that

:39:32. > :39:34.the Government might wish to consider, I would not say it has

:39:35. > :39:40.changed my mind about the bhll but it certainly has weighed he`vily,

:39:41. > :39:43.she did say that this bill going through its second reading `nd going

:39:44. > :39:46.into committee and coming b`ck from a report stage and a third reading

:39:47. > :39:52.would inevitably mean that these issues would gain more scrutiny in

:39:53. > :39:55.the House than a fan amendmdnt was simply accepted in the Housd of

:39:56. > :40:00.Lords and came back into thd House of Commons for maybe an hour's

:40:01. > :40:05.debate maximum, two I was m`ybe you're not even that sometiles. It

:40:06. > :40:10.was, in effect, mod -- nodddd through without scrutiny. I think

:40:11. > :40:15.there is some relevance in that point. It might be something that

:40:16. > :40:18.the Government might not want to consider, I had not really given it

:40:19. > :40:22.much thought before but I thought she made that point very well.

:40:23. > :40:26.I must say, when I first he`rd about this bill my initial reaction was to

:40:27. > :40:33.think that it sounded as if it was a bill that should be titled The

:40:34. > :40:41.Rewriting Of History Bill. That is a concept with which I am not

:40:42. > :40:45.generally comfortable. Therd are plenty of ugly, evil, wrong things

:40:46. > :40:50.that have happened in the p`st, but they are what they are. It hs very

:40:51. > :40:54.easy for us in this House to criticise people who were in this

:40:55. > :40:58.House in the past, very easx. I did it at the start of my speech by

:40:59. > :41:02.saying that these things ard being a crime. But I would say, Mad`m Deputy

:41:03. > :41:06.Speaker, there will be things that we pass in this House today which we

:41:07. > :41:12.all pass with the best of intentions that in 100 years' time, no doubt

:41:13. > :41:16.members of Parliament then will come along and say, do you know what it

:41:17. > :41:20.is disgusting that they passed those particular offences at that time and

:41:21. > :41:24.they should be... They should have been ashamed for doing that. And I

:41:25. > :41:29.think that we should always be slightly wary of imposing otr modern

:41:30. > :41:34.day judgments on the past. H think it is an easy thing to do btt I

:41:35. > :41:37.don't think it is necessarily always fire to the people who make

:41:38. > :41:41.decisions on what they thought were the best interests of the country at

:41:42. > :41:43.the time. We thought they wdre wrong, RBC, but they thought they

:41:44. > :41:48.were doing what was right. H will give way.

:41:49. > :41:55.Does he not think we should be a bit more concerned with people still

:41:56. > :42:00.alive and suffering, rather than our own vainglory in the future when we

:42:01. > :42:04.are dead! Well, I was going to get onto that point because the

:42:05. > :42:09.honourable member made a fahr point. If she will forgive me, I whll get

:42:10. > :42:13.onto that in a second, becatse he did make a fair point. I thhnk we

:42:14. > :42:18.should be wary, Madam Deputx Speaker, that we do not get into a

:42:19. > :42:22.habit in this house which e`ch - we appear to be getting into, where we

:42:23. > :42:27.always apologise for things other people have done in the past. Unlike

:42:28. > :42:33.Mike honourable friend for Selby who was clearly a notable exception I

:42:34. > :42:37.very rarely apologise for the things we have done and I suspect the

:42:38. > :42:41.public are keen for us to apologise for the mistakes we have made rather

:42:42. > :42:47.than the easy option of the mistakes people made hundreds of years ago. I

:42:48. > :42:51.take Tony Blair as an example, very keen to apologise for slavery from

:42:52. > :42:57.somebody else hundreds of ydars previously but did not apologise for

:42:58. > :43:00.the war in Iraq. More peopld would have bought it with well to

:43:01. > :43:05.apologise for the decisions he took rather than those many years

:43:06. > :43:11.previously. I don't like generally that particular approach to

:43:12. > :43:14.politics. And I do think he was chastised slightly for it, but my

:43:15. > :43:19.honourable friend for Cardiff North was absolutely right to slightly

:43:20. > :43:22.pull up our friends from thd Scottish Nationalist party for

:43:23. > :43:26.coming here and chastising the Minister for being very latd in the

:43:27. > :43:32.day and going very slow and the rest of it when this bill introdtced only

:43:33. > :43:38.applies to England and Wales, the Minister is going virtually all the

:43:39. > :43:42.way the SNP would like. An `wful long way to meet their requdsts I

:43:43. > :43:48.would have thought it churlhsh of them not to give him more credit for

:43:49. > :43:52.that. Whereas the Scottish Administration in Scotland hs not

:43:53. > :43:58.introducing this law when it has had plenty of opportunity, it would be

:43:59. > :44:02.interesting to do a Freedom of Information request to see how many

:44:03. > :44:04.letters the Scottish governlent have received from SNP MPs about

:44:05. > :44:09.introducing this law in the Scottish Parliament. I think they should be

:44:10. > :44:14.wary of criticising the govdrnment when the government has gond an

:44:15. > :44:17.awful lot further than the SNP administration has in Scotl`nd. And

:44:18. > :44:23.a bit of humility on that p`rticular point would not have gone a mess.

:44:24. > :44:26.And in terms of the substance, I said the honourable member for East

:44:27. > :44:31.Dunbartonshire made a good point when he said it was a good

:44:32. > :44:34.rhetorical flourish but it was a very good point when he said surely

:44:35. > :44:40.we should be more concerned about the living than the dead. Dtring his

:44:41. > :44:45.speech. And I think there is something in that. I think that the

:44:46. > :44:50.problem is when you start going down this route, it becomes very

:44:51. > :44:55.difficult to try and stop the juggernaut in its process. @nd I

:44:56. > :45:03.think where people try and draw distinctions becomes very dhfficult.

:45:04. > :45:06.For example, once you have pardoned Alan Turing and I have not heard

:45:07. > :45:09.anybody say that should not have happened, it then becomes an

:45:10. > :45:15.intellectual nonsense to deprive that same pardon the other people

:45:16. > :45:23.convicted of exactly the sale offences, but just did not happen to

:45:24. > :45:31.have as exciting and achievd as much in their lives outside, in their

:45:32. > :45:35.job. Because of course, the sexuality of people is absolutely

:45:36. > :45:38.irrelevant to the achievements of Dr Alan Turing. It should not be

:45:39. > :45:42.because of his achievements that he got a pardon, he was pardondd for

:45:43. > :45:46.something that was irrelevant, as far as I can see, to his

:45:47. > :45:53.achievements. If he is pardoned for that, it becomes very difficult not

:45:54. > :45:56.to pardon the people. Of cotrse I think the point of the honotrable

:45:57. > :46:00.gentleman for East Dunbartonshire rightly was making is once the

:46:01. > :46:04.government have accepted thd point that people who are deceased should

:46:05. > :46:07.be pardoned, it then becomes very difficult intellectually to argue,

:46:08. > :46:12.why should that not apply to people still alive? It is a very b`d point

:46:13. > :46:23.and I look forward to hearing the Minister's ancestor that issue.

:46:24. > :46:28.He describes it as a juggernaut But as my honourable friend madd clear,