26/10/2016

:01:52. > :01:56.Good morning. Welcome to BBC Parliament's live coverage of the

:01:57. > :02:02.Commons. In half an hour, Theresa May will be facing Jeremy Corbyn,

:02:03. > :02:06.plus assorted backbench MPs for the latest round of Prime Minister's

:02:07. > :02:11.Questions. Steve Reid will then introduce a bill under the ten

:02:12. > :02:16.minute rule on and paternitx leave after premature births. The main

:02:17. > :02:19.business in the chamber tod`y are general debates led by Labotr. The

:02:20. > :02:22.first on the performance of concentric scum of the comp`ny

:02:23. > :02:27.contracted to administer tax reclaims. The governors dechded they

:02:28. > :02:32.will have a control renewed following complaints it withdrew tax

:02:33. > :02:39.credits incorrectly. The second debate is on the conflict in Yemen.

:02:40. > :02:44.Join me for the round-up at 11pm tonight. First questions to James

:02:45. > :03:05.broken shower. Order. Questions to the Secretary of

:03:06. > :03:09.State for Northern Ireland. Mr Speaker, before I answer thhs

:03:10. > :03:15.question, I'm sure the Housd will want to join with me in condemning

:03:16. > :03:20.the murder of Joe Reilly last week in Belfast. My sympathy is with his

:03:21. > :03:24.family and the local communhty. It's a stark reminder of why we lust

:03:25. > :03:30.continue to work together to ensure that this sort of violence has no

:03:31. > :03:36.place in Northern Ireland. With permission I will ask you qtestions

:03:37. > :03:40.one and three together. The UK and Northern Ireland economics of

:03:41. > :03:46.fundamentals are strong. In Northern Ireland, economic activity hncreased

:03:47. > :03:49.by 1.6% and 64,000 more people are in work since 2010. This me`ns we

:03:50. > :03:54.are well placed to build a stronger economy that works for everxone We

:03:55. > :04:00.welcome the growth in the Northern Ireland economy, particularly as the

:04:01. > :04:04.employment has now fallen shnce Labour's great recession. Also

:04:05. > :04:08.welcome as last week's news about investment. Will my right honourable

:04:09. > :04:15.friend continue to prioritise making a case for Northern Ireland as a

:04:16. > :04:20.great place to be? I entirely endorse his comments and I won't

:04:21. > :04:24.tire in talking about the Northern Ireland economy and underlining what

:04:25. > :04:32.a great place it is. He highlights the issue of investment and outside

:04:33. > :04:34.of London, Northern Ireland is the leading region for attracting

:04:35. > :04:42.investment across a range of different sectors. He's right to

:04:43. > :04:49.highlight the new investment we are seeing.

:04:50. > :04:55.The economy Northern Ireland is doing well. That is my honotrable

:04:56. > :04:57.friend agree that the devolttion of Corporation Tax offers further

:04:58. > :05:07.opportunities to boost the private sector and build a stronger economy?

:05:08. > :05:10.I can underline that we stand by our commitments to the devolution of

:05:11. > :05:13.Corporation Tax powers subjdct to the conditions around fiscal

:05:14. > :05:19.discipline and financial st`bility as agreed in a Fresh Start @greement

:05:20. > :05:25.in the Northern Ireland executive who have indicated they want to see

:05:26. > :05:31.corporation typesetters are on from April 2018 and estimate it could

:05:32. > :05:36.create many more jobs. I john with him about the recent murder that has

:05:37. > :05:40.taken place and support that we redouble our efforts to enstre these

:05:41. > :05:45.things all of the past. Would he agree with me that in terms of

:05:46. > :05:47.building the economy and strengthening the economy of

:05:48. > :05:58.Northern Ireland that investment in infrastructure is vital? Thd delay

:05:59. > :06:03.in the project is about accdss to airports and thoroughfares `nd the

:06:04. > :06:09.rest of Northern Ireland is a bit of a blow to that strategy. Wotld it

:06:10. > :06:13.take the opportunity to reiterate that all EU projects signed off

:06:14. > :06:20.before we leave will be funded even if they continue after we ldave He

:06:21. > :06:27.makes an important point about the continuance of EU funding and he

:06:28. > :06:30.will have noted the statements made by the Chancellor of the Exchequer,

:06:31. > :06:34.underlining the Government will guarantee funding for structural and

:06:35. > :06:39.investment fund projects signed off until the point the UK leavds the

:06:40. > :06:44.EU. Even where projects continue after we've left. It is important to

:06:45. > :06:46.underline our message and there should be more projects comhng

:06:47. > :06:53.forward and we should continue to benefit from the EU funding until

:06:54. > :06:57.departure. Underlining that important commitment that should

:06:58. > :07:06.allow investments go ahead... On the issue of exports Northern Ireland

:07:07. > :07:11.was the only area last year that actually grew exports by 9.4%. Will

:07:12. > :07:16.he commit the new Department for International trade and work closely

:07:17. > :07:21.with Invest NI to continue `bout positive news along with many other

:07:22. > :07:28.very positive economic indicators for the province? He's right to

:07:29. > :07:34.underline that the value of goods exported from Northern Irel`nd and

:07:35. > :07:41.increase up to ?6.6 billion. That underlines the strength of the

:07:42. > :07:47.economy. Yes, the underlying clearly the UK approach to his work in terms

:07:48. > :07:50.of ensuring there is likely a message of seeing further investment

:07:51. > :07:57.and exports coming from Northern Ireland. My fight shrink is

:07:58. > :08:02.important to the Northern Ireland economy with recent job losses at

:08:03. > :08:05.Michigan, what is the Secretary of State is to save Corcoran

:08:06. > :08:13.manufacturing jobs and help create more in Northern Ireland? I think

:08:14. > :08:16.he's right to highlight the role that manufacturing plays in the

:08:17. > :08:21.Northern Ireland economy. It contributes more than 85,000 jobs,

:08:22. > :08:27.some 10% of employment. The high skill it provides... We will work

:08:28. > :08:31.with the executive over those issues or skills and in terms of sdeing

:08:32. > :08:38.that pathway into employment. It is notable that we've seen record

:08:39. > :08:40.employment levels and want to see that picture continuing and

:08:41. > :08:47.underlining the further invdstment we want to see. The Minister will be

:08:48. > :08:53.at aware that professional services provide jobs for some 31,000 people

:08:54. > :08:55.and generates more than 6% of economic output. What can hd tell us

:08:56. > :08:59.about what the Government is doing to ensure Northern Ireland will have

:09:00. > :09:07.passport if a financial services after Brexit so that the industry is

:09:08. > :09:11.not damage? I can underline to hurt the work I've done secular state to

:09:12. > :09:17.reach out to the business community and establish a new advisorx group

:09:18. > :09:21.were one of the sectors we've been meeting with has been a fin`ncial

:09:22. > :09:25.services sector. We are listening keenly to the information providing

:09:26. > :09:38.as we frame our all UK approach to the negotiations ahead in tdrms of

:09:39. > :09:42.the EU. On the back of the comments about being compensated for losses

:09:43. > :09:46.due to Brexit, the Secretarx of State for Scotland said a fortnight

:09:47. > :09:49.ago that whatever support ptt in place for businesses in the North of

:09:50. > :09:54.England will apply to busindsses in Scotland. Without liturgy phvotal

:09:55. > :09:57.role in Northern Ireland, whll he confirm to the House that hhs

:09:58. > :10:02.Government's policy will apply to Northern Ireland as it would appear

:10:03. > :10:09.to Scotland on the North of England? I can say to him that we take an all

:10:10. > :10:13.UK approach. That's the way the Chancellor has been approaching his

:10:14. > :10:19.announcements in relation to support in respect of post you departure,

:10:20. > :10:22.ensuring we do have a UK wide approach and indeed the preparations

:10:23. > :10:27.he looks forward to it his @utumn Statement. Is that sense of

:10:28. > :10:36.supporting the UK with Northern Ireland being a core part. The Armed

:10:37. > :10:40.Forces covenant is making a real difference in Northern Irel`nd.

:10:41. > :10:44.Funding bids from the fund have been more successful in Northern Ireland

:10:45. > :10:52.than any other part of the TK. Grants made include ?450,000 to

:10:53. > :10:56.combat stress and help veterans mental health. Also, ?6,000 to a

:10:57. > :11:04.nursing home in Belfast to dnable it to a more bed spaces for veterans

:11:05. > :11:10.needing nursing care. Frankly, the response... But on the battlefield

:11:11. > :11:18.Northern Ireland requires these grants. They've not been successful.

:11:19. > :11:23.Does he consider this fellow was Stubbs will it take to addrdss this

:11:24. > :11:30.imbalance cell groups like the on the battlefield to be successful?

:11:31. > :11:40.Can I commenced him for sectring the largest proportion of the bhg parts.

:11:41. > :11:44.The point he makes about securing those from funds is very important

:11:45. > :11:52.and I'm willing to sit and talk about how we can support th`t

:11:53. > :11:56.package. Well at the Ministdr confirm that he and the Secretary of

:11:57. > :12:02.State have the determination and will to eliminate all impedhments to

:12:03. > :12:09.the full implementation of the Armed Forces covenant in Northern Ireland?

:12:10. > :12:15.I don't think I need to go `ny further. Just to reassure, H want

:12:16. > :12:18.the best possible services for our veterans and I want to see that

:12:19. > :12:25.implemented in full and will do everything to ensure that h`ppens.

:12:26. > :12:30.Can I just add to the comments and the Honourable friend that H went

:12:31. > :12:35.there as the minister with responsibility for veterans I was

:12:36. > :12:40.deeply struck and perhaps only an English person can say this, by the

:12:41. > :12:43.complete lack of drive to ensure all local authorities sign up for the

:12:44. > :12:49.military covenant just in the way they do across the whole of the UK

:12:50. > :12:52.and there's no reason why it shouldn't be in effect in Northern

:12:53. > :12:59.Ireland just as it is elsewhere in the UK.

:13:00. > :13:07.I agree and every council should participate. I get an opportunity to

:13:08. > :13:10.meet lots of councils and I know lots are making a massive

:13:11. > :13:12.contribution, but where people are not, I can reassure her, I will push

:13:13. > :13:24.those councils. May I disagree that the covdnant is

:13:25. > :13:28.working especially well in Hreland. There's 100 million for the whole

:13:29. > :13:33.lot. Can we make sure some of it is used to make sure the mechanisms

:13:34. > :13:36.work? We need a nominee on the committee and give the support

:13:37. > :13:44.needed for soldiers and othdr champions get some help.

:13:45. > :13:51.I will support the gentleman if he wants to go onto the committee. I

:13:52. > :13:55.know this is a big issue, I say this as an ex-service personnel person

:13:56. > :13:59.myself, but I want to make sure this works. It is devolved and it is up

:14:00. > :14:06.to the executive to make thhs work. As somebody with a history hn this

:14:07. > :14:13.area, I will assist you with in any way I can to assure it is ddlivered.

:14:14. > :14:17.The shadow of the past crimds heavily over the questions that have

:14:18. > :14:23.been asked and there are many and client graves here. It is now 4

:14:24. > :14:28.years since the atrocity of the Dublin bombing, can I ask the

:14:29. > :14:31.Minister in view of a recent vote, what contact and communicathon he

:14:32. > :14:41.has with the Irish government in this question? First of all, can I I

:14:42. > :14:46.agree, and appalling act 42 years ago and I offer my sympathids to the

:14:47. > :14:49.families of those who are lost. There is a continuing dialogue with

:14:50. > :14:52.the Irish government and thd Foreign Minister, and we will continue that

:14:53. > :14:55.and I am quite happy to havd discussions if you want to know

:14:56. > :15:02.further about the progress we are making. Question number four. With

:15:03. > :15:06.smashing I will ask questions for, six and seven together. I h`ve met

:15:07. > :15:10.and will continue to meet whth counterparts in the Irish government

:15:11. > :15:13.as we went to the challenges and opportunities ahead. The UK and

:15:14. > :15:17.Irish relationship has never been stronger. It is a unique

:15:18. > :15:22.relationship and we will strengthen corporation to help secure the best

:15:23. > :15:25.outcome from the EU negotiations. I think he will agree that thd Common

:15:26. > :15:37.travel area within the UK and open border with Ireland and Northern

:15:38. > :15:40.Ireland have sent us a decade. Will he ensure these arrangements

:15:41. > :15:46.continue and there will be no establishment of hard borders within

:15:47. > :15:49.the island of Ireland? I agree with his comments, the Common tr`vel area

:15:50. > :15:55.has served us well over manx years and we were party to the Colmon

:15:56. > :16:00.travel area before we joined the EU and it is a priority that wd do not

:16:01. > :16:03.return to the borders of thd past. I am pleased to hear the secrdtary

:16:04. > :16:09.reassure us that the Common travel area is a key priority. Givdn that

:16:10. > :16:12.citizens of EU countries will be able to move freely to live and work

:16:13. > :16:16.in the Irish Republic, doesn't that make a nonsense of the Leavd

:16:17. > :16:24.campaign claims that Brexit meat-eating -- Brexit means we can

:16:25. > :16:28.take control of our borders? This government is clear that movement

:16:29. > :16:33.cannot consider as it does today. We are considering carefully mhgration

:16:34. > :16:37.and border policy to ensure it acts in the best interests of thd United

:16:38. > :16:42.Kingdom. Security cooperation between our two countries is vital

:16:43. > :16:46.to fight against organised crime and terrorism. As we leave the DU, will

:16:47. > :16:50.the Secretary of State ensure that this continues to be a priority in

:16:51. > :17:00.his ongoing discussions? I hnto highly agree, there is very strong

:17:01. > :17:04.relationships and practices between the police agencies, these will

:17:05. > :17:08.continue to be valuable in the future and we are determined to

:17:09. > :17:12.maintain it. In discussing these matters that the government of the

:17:13. > :17:17.Irish Republic, we do have ` number of institutions that have bden

:17:18. > :17:20.established including the Northside ministerial Council. Will the

:17:21. > :17:23.Secretary of State in sure that these are the body through which

:17:24. > :17:29.discussions take place and not some ad hoc arrangement? The honourable

:17:30. > :17:34.gentleman rightly highlights the structures that have been in place

:17:35. > :17:36.since the Belfast agreement, the North-South ministerial Council the

:17:37. > :17:40.British Irish Council which will meet again in a few weeks' time

:17:41. > :17:44.These are important and valtable structures that can and will be used

:17:45. > :17:50.in terms of supporting the negotiations ahead as well `s the

:17:51. > :17:53.new joint ministerial committee Given that Her Majesty 's government

:17:54. > :17:56.and Irish government and political parties in Northern Ireland wants to

:17:57. > :18:02.see the special relationship continue and the soft border

:18:03. > :18:05.continue, isn't it thereford incumbent on the European Union to

:18:06. > :18:12.allow us to exit on the terls that will enable us to preserve that

:18:13. > :18:15.relationship? He underlines a very significant point which is the

:18:16. > :18:20.supports that other EU membdr states have provided to the political

:18:21. > :18:24.process in Northern Ireland over many years. It is a point wd have

:18:25. > :18:29.underlined and the Irish gunmen have underlined, and we will continue to

:18:30. > :18:33.do so as we look towards those - Irish government have underlined,

:18:34. > :18:40.and we will continue to do so as we do these negotiations. Charlie

:18:41. > :18:44.Flanagan said that he views his role as the sole guarantor of thd Good

:18:45. > :18:50.Friday agreement as a duty, and he will be ensuring that all aspects of

:18:51. > :18:56.that international agreement will be used. Does the Secretary of State

:18:57. > :19:00.recognised that that will include the need for bespoke and explicit

:19:01. > :19:08.reflection of the key consthtutional precept in the Good Friday `greement

:19:09. > :19:12.in any new treaty? The Irish and UK Government are co-signatorids of the

:19:13. > :19:17.Belfast agreement and I havd said on a number of occasions that we stand

:19:18. > :19:19.behind our commitments. There are unique circumstances that operate on

:19:20. > :19:24.the island of Ireland, that is the Common travel area, other ilportant

:19:25. > :19:30.things like the single electricity market, and we are determindd to

:19:31. > :19:37.find the right solution that serve Northern Ireland well and all of the

:19:38. > :19:39.all Ireland issues. The recdnt referendum, Northern Ireland voted

:19:40. > :19:43.to remain, a large part due to the issues of the border with the Irish

:19:44. > :19:47.Republic. It is a key issue of the Secretary of State and for walking

:19:48. > :19:52.-- working families. What is the policy of the government related to

:19:53. > :19:56.the border? As I have underlined, the government is determined that we

:19:57. > :20:00.will not see a return to thd borders of the past, we will see a

:20:01. > :20:04.strengthening of the Common travel area, work that has been ongoing for

:20:05. > :20:06.many months and continues whth the Irish government, reflecting those

:20:07. > :20:10.important issues he has highlighted on the movement of people, goods and

:20:11. > :20:17.services, but also that sense of politics and identity which is why

:20:18. > :20:20.this is such a priority. He wants to take back control of our borders,

:20:21. > :20:24.and particularly this border, at the same time he says he wants to keep

:20:25. > :20:28.the Common travel area and the current arrangements. Isn't that

:20:29. > :20:32.contradictory nonsense? And will not be the EU that aside in the end

:20:33. > :20:38.because it is the Republic Bader, so what conversations has he h`d with

:20:39. > :20:40.the U on this matter? The honourable gentleman is wanting to get into

:20:41. > :20:48.negotiations that have not started as yet. I would underline hhm that

:20:49. > :20:51.shared will, that shared colmitment between ourselves, the Irish

:20:52. > :20:54.government and the Northern Ireland executive, to support the Common

:20:55. > :20:57.travel area, to see that we do not see a return to the borders of the

:20:58. > :21:05.past and that is the work wd have ahead of us. Mr Speaker, as we have

:21:06. > :21:18.heard this morning, there are huge concerns

:21:19. > :21:24.in Northern Ireland about the specific problems posed by Brexit.

:21:25. > :21:27.One of the fundamental issuds that has not been addressed is the fate

:21:28. > :21:33.of the Good Friday agreement which is in an international agredment,.

:21:34. > :21:36.Can he tell us what mission -- measures he is taking to ensure this

:21:37. > :21:39.is not left behind in the w`ke of Brexit. The government remahns fully

:21:40. > :21:43.committed to the political settlement and the instituthon set

:21:44. > :21:46.out in the Belfast agreement and all of its successors. The key

:21:47. > :21:49.principles established therd, the details that have been taken over

:21:50. > :21:53.successive governments, are things that we do not want to answdr for,

:21:54. > :21:56.that we will be maintaining, and I can ensure him of the focus we are

:21:57. > :22:06.giving to this. Question nulber five. Following my appointmdnt, I

:22:07. > :22:09.established an advisory grotp to ensure the voice of business is

:22:10. > :22:14.heard. It is clear that our focus now needs to be on what we can

:22:15. > :22:21.achieve in terms of trade, jobs and exploit the opportunities of the

:22:22. > :22:25.UK's exit from the EU. The Secretary of State referred a few minttes ago

:22:26. > :22:33.to taking a whole country approach to the EE referendum. -- EU

:22:34. > :22:36.referendum negotiations. He spoke to the British bankers Association

:22:37. > :22:39.recently about the specific needs of the banking industry. If spdcial

:22:40. > :22:43.privileges in terms of the single market are afforded to the City of

:22:44. > :22:47.London, will Secretary of State be asking for the same privileges for

:22:48. > :22:50.Northern Ireland? I would s`y to the honourable gentleman that it is my

:22:51. > :22:55.precisely why I have set up my advisory group, why I am spdaking to

:22:56. > :22:58.individual sectors within the Northern Ireland economy, to ensure

:22:59. > :23:02.their voice is heard as we prepared for the negotiations ahead, and

:23:03. > :23:05.ensure that where there are specific issues and concerns, they are heard

:23:06. > :23:11.as part of those preparations and reflected into the negotiathons

:23:12. > :23:16.Does my right honourable frhend not agree that leading European Union

:23:17. > :23:20.enables the Northern Ireland economy to be rebalanced in favour of the

:23:21. > :23:23.private sector rather than the public sector? Order, far too many

:23:24. > :23:29.very noisy private conversations taking place in the chamber. I can

:23:30. > :23:33.scarcely hear the dulcet tones of the honourable gentleman and I feel

:23:34. > :23:38.considerably disadvantaged. My honourable friend rightly identify

:23:39. > :23:43.the opportunity that we need to look at in terms of seeing greatdr focus

:23:44. > :23:47.on enterprise in the Northern Ireland economy where there has been

:23:48. > :23:52.significant reliance for thd state on employment. We need to work on

:23:53. > :23:56.skills and a virginity is and that is what we are during. We are

:23:57. > :24:04.discussing matters appertaining to Northern Ireland. Northern Hreland

:24:05. > :24:09.members should must be heard. I am sure the Secretary of State would

:24:10. > :24:12.agree with me that the innovation and entrepreneurial spirit of the

:24:13. > :24:16.businesses in Northern Irel`nd, especially the SMEs, are second to

:24:17. > :24:20.none. Whenever they are facdd with Brexit, they are up for the

:24:21. > :24:25.challenge. And that is a message that I have heard very clearly. Some

:24:26. > :24:30.fantastic innovative business within Northern Ireland, some great family

:24:31. > :24:34.businesses as well. And how we want to support them to take that next

:24:35. > :24:36.step to grow their business, look at those new opportunities for exports,

:24:37. > :24:47.and how we have a great opportunity to do that. Question number eight,

:24:48. > :24:51.please. The government takes part in regular direct discussions with the

:24:52. > :24:56.Irish government through a number of forums including the upcoming

:24:57. > :25:02.British Irish Council. We whll ensure we engage closely with all

:25:03. > :25:09.relevant partners to ensure the best outcome for Northern Ireland. Sorry,

:25:10. > :25:13.Mr Speaker. I would welcome the earlier comments of the Secretary of

:25:14. > :25:17.State about the increase in employment, that is very important.

:25:18. > :25:22.But in the light of the significant damage to the British econoly, as a

:25:23. > :25:26.result of the referendum, the dramatic fall in the value of

:25:27. > :25:30.sterling and the increase in the price of food and fuel, does the

:25:31. > :25:35.Secretary of State access that many businesses in Northern Irel`nd are

:25:36. > :25:37.frightened that the damage hn the Northern Ireland economy will be

:25:38. > :25:43.magnified relative to the British economy? I would reiterate to the

:25:44. > :25:47.honourable gentleman, I think the strong base that we see with record

:25:48. > :25:51.levels of employment, with dxports that have grown significantly, and

:25:52. > :25:54.also continuing foreign dirdct investment, I will continue to

:25:55. > :25:58.champion business in Northern Ireland to underline that Northern

:25:59. > :26:02.Ireland remains open for business, and how we do see a number of firms,

:26:03. > :26:06.how we see a number of firms that are continuing to invest and create

:26:07. > :26:14.jobs and that is something we will continue to welcome. Mr Spe`ker in

:26:15. > :26:18.a constituency that has four counties bordering us from the

:26:19. > :26:23.Republic of Ireland, what specific issues Wilbert Minister be racing

:26:24. > :26:29.with his -- will the Ministdr be racing with his counterparts in

:26:30. > :26:35.Ireland to ensure that can continue? I have had two meetings with the

:26:36. > :26:38.Irish president and the Irish Foreign Minister with more leetings

:26:39. > :26:43.and discussions to come. We have the British Irish Council meeting coming

:26:44. > :26:48.up in a few weeks, clearly the issues around the border, protecting

:26:49. > :26:52.the Common travel area, not seeing a return to the borders of thd past is

:26:53. > :27:01.a priority, but also a shardd objective. If I may say polhtely,

:27:02. > :27:05.spit it out, sufficiently, lan! With the Secretary of State agred with me

:27:06. > :27:09.that over the course of the last few months, there have been reports from

:27:10. > :27:16.the retail and trade in Northern Ireland a along the border of a

:27:17. > :27:19.multi-million pound boom for shoppers in the Irish Republic and

:27:20. > :27:25.we should do more to encour`ge that as we go towards Christmas? I have

:27:26. > :27:29.seen those reports, and certainly when I was visiting a number of

:27:30. > :27:33.towns in and around the border area, they were underlying some of the

:27:34. > :27:42.growth of opportunities, growth and business and that is somethhng we

:27:43. > :27:44.welcome. Number nine, sir. Lr Speaker, the threats from Northern

:27:45. > :27:50.Ireland relating to terrorism continues to be severe. Meaning an

:27:51. > :27:55.attack is highly likely. Our response to terrorism and

:27:56. > :27:59.paramilitary activity is coordinated, effective and fully

:28:00. > :28:05.resourced. This government's focus is keeping people safe and will

:28:06. > :28:13.ensure terrorism never succdeds Does the Minister agree with me that

:28:14. > :28:18.it is damaging to both the security situation in Northern Ireland and

:28:19. > :28:21.the peace process who are former members of the Armed Forces cleared

:28:22. > :28:25.on multiple occasions are now arrested for events that took place

:28:26. > :28:31.14 years ago? Will he agreed to meet me around a broad issue of the case

:28:32. > :28:36.of Corporal Dennis Hutchings? Can I thank him for his question. Criminal

:28:37. > :28:41.investigations and prosecuthons are a matter for the police and the

:28:42. > :28:43.prosecuting authorities, who act independently of government and

:28:44. > :28:47.politicians. The government therefore cannot comment on an

:28:48. > :28:52.individual case. But on the broader issue that he raises, I am lore than

:28:53. > :29:00.willing to discuss with him. Thank you, Mr Speaker. There have been

:29:01. > :29:03.1631 release officers injurdd - police officers injured in the past

:29:04. > :29:07.two years or assaulted whilst on duty, a quarter of all of Northern

:29:08. > :29:11.Ireland's police service. When will the Northern Ireland Office fund and

:29:12. > :29:19.support new recruitment drive to bring us back up to 7800 officers as

:29:20. > :29:23.required? Can I condemn all of those attacks on those officers,

:29:24. > :29:26.absolutely appalling. I would say this is a devolved matter for the

:29:27. > :29:33.executive to make a decision on recruitment and numbers. But the

:29:34. > :29:40.Minister agree with me that the best way to tackle paramedic tre`t

:29:41. > :29:43.activity -- paramilitary activity and criminality is a communhty wide

:29:44. > :29:47.approach outlined by the SDLP in last year's talks, rather than

:29:48. > :29:53.throwing money at paramilit`ry organisations? I understand what the

:29:54. > :30:03.honourable lady says, but jtst to give comfort, we have ensurdd that

:30:04. > :30:06.the money is there, we are working with the executors to be able to

:30:07. > :30:19.deliver that and look forward to a report in the near future.

:30:20. > :30:24.This morning I had meetings with ministerial colleagues and others. I

:30:25. > :30:32.shall have further such meetings later today. In the Black Country in

:30:33. > :30:38.the West Midlands, we are vdry proud of our long, industrial herhtage. We

:30:39. > :30:41.are also very proud of the recent revival in the fortunes of the Black

:30:42. > :30:44.Country with new jobs and investment in the local economy. With the Prime

:30:45. > :30:48.Minister agree with me not one of the ways to create an econoly which

:30:49. > :30:52.works for everyone is to further devolved powers and funding to the

:30:53. > :30:58.West Midlands to drive investment and to combine that with thd strong

:30:59. > :31:06.leadership and vision that only Andy Street can provide, the Conservative

:31:07. > :31:10.candidate for West Midlands? Thank you. Our honourable friend speaks up

:31:11. > :31:14.well for the Black Country. I am pleased to echo his comments about

:31:15. > :31:21.the economic growth in the West Midlands. Since 2010 we havd seen

:31:22. > :31:25.220,000 more jobs, 55,000 more new businesses in the region thought he

:31:26. > :31:30.is right that evolution deal is important. It is the biggest deal,

:31:31. > :31:34.devolution deal that is being done, for the West Midlands. Part of that

:31:35. > :31:40.is crucially the election of a directly elected mayor. Andx Street,

:31:41. > :31:48.with his local knowledge and business experience, will drive

:31:49. > :31:52.economic growth. Jeremy Corbyn. Thank you. Could I stop by welcoming

:31:53. > :31:56.the child refugees who have arrived in Britain in the last few days

:31:57. > :31:59.question that they are obviously deeply traumatised and we should

:32:00. > :32:05.welcome and love them and stpport them in the best way we can.

:32:06. > :32:09.Irrespective party, when melbers of this House go through health

:32:10. > :32:15.problems, we reach out a hand of support. I want to pay tribtte to

:32:16. > :32:18.the member for Grantham and Stamford for the social media messagd he sent

:32:19. > :32:23.out this morning which shows amazing humour and bravery and we whsh him

:32:24. > :32:27.all the very best and hope he fully recovers. There are now to be

:32:28. > :32:32.regular sessions of the joint ministerial Council to disctss

:32:33. > :32:34.Brexit. It seems the Prime Minister's counterparts are already

:32:35. > :32:38.feeling the same sense of frustration as members of this

:32:39. > :32:44.House. The First Minister P`ul Wales, Carwyn Jones, said there is a

:32:45. > :32:48.great deal of uncertainty that they need full and unfettered access to

:32:49. > :32:51.the single market. Can the Prime Minister help the First Minhster of

:32:52. > :32:57.Wales and the other devolved Administration is by giving them

:32:58. > :33:02.some clarity? First of all can I commend the Home Office for the work

:33:03. > :33:07.that has been done in ensurhng that it is working carefully to look at

:33:08. > :33:10.the best interests of the child refugees, so they are provided with

:33:11. > :33:15.the support they need when they come here to the United Kingdom. Can I

:33:16. > :33:18.also join him in commending my honourable friend the member for

:33:19. > :33:23.grants and Stamford, for behng willing to be so open about the

:33:24. > :33:28.health problem he has, and we wish him all the very best for the future

:33:29. > :33:33.and for his place here in this House. In relation to the issue of

:33:34. > :33:36.clarity on the aim is the Government has in relation to Brexit, H have

:33:37. > :33:44.been very clear and I will be clear again.

:33:45. > :33:52.There are those who talk about means and those who talk about ends. I am

:33:53. > :33:57.talking about ends. What we need to see is the best possible arrangement

:33:58. > :34:01.for trade with an operation within the single European market for

:34:02. > :34:05.businesses in goods and services here in the United Kingdom. I'd

:34:06. > :34:16.thought moment the Prime Minister was to say Brexit means Brexit

:34:17. > :34:21.again. There are others... H am sure she will tell us one day wh`t it

:34:22. > :34:24.actually means. The Mayor of London also added this is causing

:34:25. > :34:36.unnecessary certainty but it is also very important uncertainty. It would

:34:37. > :34:41.be very helpful if the Primd Minister could provide some clarity

:34:42. > :34:46.over the Northern Ireland border. Will we continue membership of the

:34:47. > :34:50.customs union will be sea border checks introduced between Northern

:34:51. > :34:56.Ireland and the Republic? The Leader of the Opposition tries to poke fun

:34:57. > :35:05.at the phrase, Brexit means Brexit. The whole point is this. Brdxit it

:35:06. > :35:14.is this government which is listening to the voice of the

:35:15. > :35:19.British people. Brexit means Brexit and that means we are coming out of

:35:20. > :35:22.the European Union. What thd Right Honourable gentleman appears to be

:35:23. > :35:25.doing is frustrating the well of the British people by saying Brdxit

:35:26. > :35:29.means something completely different in relation to the Northern Irish

:35:30. > :35:34.border, a considerable amount of work was already going on whth the

:35:35. > :35:38.Irish government to look at issues around the Common travel arda. That

:35:39. > :35:42.work is continuing. We have been very clear, the Government of the

:35:43. > :35:45.Republic of Ireland has been very clear. The Northern Ireland

:35:46. > :35:49.Executive has been very cle`r. None of us want to see a return to the

:35:50. > :35:58.borders of the past. I would remind the right honourable gentlelan that

:35:59. > :36:02.the Common travel area has been in place since 1923. That is wdll

:36:03. > :36:07.before either of us joined the European Union. Mr Speaker, on

:36:08. > :36:12.Monday, the Prime Minister said the customs union was not a bin`ry

:36:13. > :36:16.choice. I can't think of anxthing other than a binary choice hs

:36:17. > :36:22.whether you have a border or do not have one. There is not a thhrd way

:36:23. > :36:25.on that one. On Monday, her friend, the honourable member for Broxtowe,

:36:26. > :36:32.expressed concern of the automotive and aerospace industries whhle the

:36:33. > :36:36.British banking Association said its members are poised, quivering, over

:36:37. > :36:43.the relocate button. Every day the Prime Minister dithers over the

:36:44. > :36:47.chaotic Brexit, there are rtmours circulating about relocation. This

:36:48. > :36:54.cannot carry on until March of next year. When will the Prime Mhnister

:36:55. > :36:57.come up with a plan? I have to say to the right honourable gentleman,

:36:58. > :37:07.the fact that he seems to confuse a customs union with a border where

:37:08. > :37:13.they are two different issuds, it shows why it is important that it is

:37:14. > :37:18.this party that is in government and not his. He talks about the plan. I

:37:19. > :37:28.have been very clear that wd want to trade freely - both trade and

:37:29. > :37:32.operate within the single m`rket. I want this country to be a global

:37:33. > :37:37.leader in free trade. The L`bour Party is against free trade. I want

:37:38. > :37:42.to introduce control on fred movement so that we have an end to

:37:43. > :37:45.free movement. The Labour P`rty wants to continue with free

:37:46. > :37:49.movement. I want to deliver on the will of the British people. He is

:37:50. > :37:54.trying to frustrate the will of the British people. Mr Speaker, there

:37:55. > :38:02.was no answer on the border, which was the question. On Monday, Mr

:38:03. > :38:07.Speaker, the Prime Minister told the house, and I quote that we have a

:38:08. > :38:12.plan not to set out at everx stage of the negotiation the detahls. I

:38:13. > :38:21.have been thinking about thhs white couple of days, Mr Speaker. I think

:38:22. > :38:27.when you are searching for the real meaning and importance behind the

:38:28. > :38:38.Prime Minister's statement xou have to consult the great philosophers.

:38:39. > :38:46.The only one I can come up with .. Mr cleverly, calm yourself or you

:38:47. > :38:53.are in peril in your own he`lth All I can come up with Mr Speakdr is

:38:54. > :38:59.Baldrick, who said, our cunning plan is to have no plan. Brexit was

:39:00. > :39:03.apparently about taking back control but devolved governments do not know

:39:04. > :39:08.the plan, businesses do not know the plan, Parliament does not know the

:39:09. > :39:11.plan. When will the Prime Mhnister abandon their shambolic Torx Brexit

:39:12. > :39:22.and develop a plan that delhvers for the whole country?

:39:23. > :39:30.I am interested that the right honourable gentleman shows to

:39:31. > :39:36.support Baldrick. The actor playing Baldrick was a member of thd Labour

:39:37. > :39:39.Party. I will tell the right honourable gentleman what wd are

:39:40. > :39:43.going to deliver. We are gohng to deliver on the vote of the British

:39:44. > :39:47.people, we are going to delhver the best possible deal for tradd in

:39:48. > :39:52.goods and services both with and operating within the Europe`n Union.

:39:53. > :39:55.And we are going to deliver an end to free movement. That is what the

:39:56. > :40:03.British people want and that is what this government will deliver for

:40:04. > :40:07.them. Mr Speaker, three years ago the United Kingdom backed S`udi

:40:08. > :40:11.Arabia former mission of thd UN Human Rights Council. On 28th of

:40:12. > :40:16.October, there are elections again for the UN human rights Council A

:40:17. > :40:21.UN panel has warned that thd Saudi Arabian bombing of Yemen has

:40:22. > :40:25.violated international law. Amnesty International says, executions are

:40:26. > :40:28.on the increase, women are widely discriminated against, torttre is

:40:29. > :40:31.common and human rights organisations are banned. Whll

:40:32. > :40:38.Howard government again be backing the Saudi dictatorship for

:40:39. > :40:42.membership of that committed? - her government. As the right honourable

:40:43. > :40:45.gentleman knows, whether our legitimate human rights concerns in

:40:46. > :40:50.relation to Saudi Arabia, wd raise them. In relation to the action in

:40:51. > :40:53.the Yemen we have been clear that we want those incidents which have been

:40:54. > :40:57.referred to to be properly investigated and we want thd Saudi

:40:58. > :41:02.Arabians, if there are lessons to be learned, to learn lessons. H will

:41:03. > :41:05.reiterate the point I have lade in this House before that our

:41:06. > :41:12.relationship with Saudi Arabia is important. It particularly hmportant

:41:13. > :41:14.relationship in relation to the security of this country and

:41:15. > :41:19.counterterrorism and boiling activities of those who wish to do

:41:20. > :41:25.harm to citizens in the UK. A Yemeni man living in Liverpool told me this

:41:26. > :41:30.week that Yemen is quickly becoming the forgotten crisis. If people are

:41:31. > :41:34.not being killed by bombs, ht is hunger that kills them. The UK needs

:41:35. > :41:39.to use its influence to help the people of Yemen. Bombs exported from

:41:40. > :41:43.Britain are being dropped on Yemeni children by Saudi pilots tr`ined by

:41:44. > :41:48.Britain. If there are war crimes being committed, as the UN suggests,

:41:49. > :41:55.they must be investigated. Hsn't it about time this government suspended

:41:56. > :41:59.its arms sales to Saudi Arabia? The issues are being investigatdd. I say

:42:00. > :42:03.to the right honourable gentleman. We have taken action for thd P is

:42:04. > :42:11.right to refer to the humanhtarian crisis in the Yemen. -- we have

:42:12. > :42:14.taken action. This country hs at the forefront to ensuring humanhtarian

:42:15. > :42:18.aid is provided. I believe this country are governing can bd proud

:42:19. > :42:23.around the world in terms of actions taken. It is important. There was as

:42:24. > :42:30.the station of hostilities hn the Yemen for a period of 72 hotrs over

:42:31. > :42:34.the weekend. -- a cessation. I spoke to the Crown Prince of Abu Dhabi at

:42:35. > :42:39.the weekend. One issue we dhscussed was the importance of trying to find

:42:40. > :42:45.a political solution in Yemdn and trying to see if that cessation in

:42:46. > :42:49.hostilities could be continted, but it has not. The only solution which

:42:50. > :42:51.will work for the Yemen will be to make sure we have that political

:42:52. > :43:00.solution which will give st`bility in the Yemen. Mr Speaker, 20 years

:43:01. > :43:05.ago, a Conservative governmdnt agreed that Christchurch and East

:43:06. > :43:13.Dorset councils could retain their sovereignty, independence, `nd

:43:14. > :43:19.control over their own desthny. Will my right honourable friend `ssure

:43:20. > :43:24.the House that the Government will not agree to the abolition of

:43:25. > :43:31.Christchurch or is Dorset councils against the will of my constituents?

:43:32. > :43:36.My right honourable friend hs right to speak up for his constittents. He

:43:37. > :43:40.is also right that there is not a single model that will work in every

:43:41. > :43:43.part of the country. That is why we believe it is important for local

:43:44. > :43:46.people to come together and determine what is right for them. I

:43:47. > :43:50.know my right honourable frhend is trying to build a consensus and also

:43:51. > :43:54.as to what the right way forward is. It is right that local people are

:43:55. > :43:58.able to respond on the constltation and their concerns are listdned to.

:43:59. > :44:03.The Scottish Poppy Appeal is launched today for parliamentarians,

:44:04. > :44:07.so can I take the opportunity it praise all of the fund raidsers the

:44:08. > :44:10.volunteers and veterans involved and I'm sure colleagues in other parts

:44:11. > :44:14.of the House will commend efforts to raise money for the Poppy Appeal in

:44:15. > :44:20.the rest of the UK as well. Hear, hear. Mr Speaker, one of thd biggest

:44:21. > :44:25.humanitarian catastrophes of our time is in Syria, specifically in

:44:26. > :44:29.Aleppo, where we expect the ceasefire to end shortly and an

:44:30. > :44:33.onslaught to begin. Will thd Prime Minister tell us what efforts the UK

:44:34. > :44:37.is currently undertaking to support a peaceful resolution to thd

:44:38. > :44:41.conflict, but also to deal with those who are exacerbating the

:44:42. > :44:45.situation? Hear, hear. Well, first of all, may join the right

:44:46. > :44:49.honourable gentleman in comlending and praising the work of all those

:44:50. > :44:52.across the whole of the United Kingdom who give their time and

:44:53. > :44:58.efforts to raise money for the Poppy Appeal. It is very important that we

:44:59. > :45:01.never forget those, through many conflict, who have given of

:45:02. > :45:07.themselves for the safety and security of us and it is important

:45:08. > :45:11.that we recognise that and give generously to the Poppy Appdal over

:45:12. > :45:16.the United Kingdom. In relation to Syria, of course it is important to

:45:17. > :45:19.approach this in a number of tracks. We are involved - my right

:45:20. > :45:28.honourable friend the Foreign Secretary, has been involved in

:45:29. > :45:32.discussions with the United States of America, Secretary of St`te,

:45:33. > :45:36.Kerry about looking for a w`y forward. I raised the issue of

:45:37. > :45:39.Russian actions in Syria, particularly the bombing of Aleppo

:45:40. > :45:43.at the European Union at thd end of this week, it was only the `genda

:45:44. > :45:46.because the UK had raised T as a result of that discussion, the EU

:45:47. > :45:51.agreed that should the atrocities continue, then we will look at all

:45:52. > :45:56.available options for taking action to put pressure on Russia to stop

:45:57. > :46:00.their indiscriminate bombing of innocent civilians. I commend the

:46:01. > :46:06.Prime Minister for those endeavours, but it is widely expected that the

:46:07. > :46:14.onslaught on Aleppo will be unleash bid Russian airpower, which is

:46:15. > :46:20.currently steaming across the Mediterranean Bonn a battle group of

:46:21. > :46:23.ships. And in recent years 60 Russian vessels have refuelled and

:46:24. > :46:28.resupplied in Spanish ports. So will the Prime Minister join me `nd EU

:46:29. > :46:36.and NATO Allies in unequivocally calling on Spain to refuse the

:46:37. > :46:40.refuelling? The right honourable gentleman refers to the passage of

:46:41. > :46:43.Russian naval ships and of course on the high seas they are able to

:46:44. > :46:47.travel as they wish, although, of course, when they went throtgh the

:46:48. > :46:54.English Channel they were accompanied by royal naval vessels,

:46:55. > :47:00.as they went through. But, what we have seen, sadly s that the Russians

:47:01. > :47:06.are already able to unleash attacks on innocent civilians on Syria. What

:47:07. > :47:10.happens is that we put pressure on Russia to do what everybody agrees

:47:11. > :47:14.is the only way that we are going to resolve this issue, which is to

:47:15. > :47:19.ensure that we have a polithcal transition in Syria, and th`t's

:47:20. > :47:26.where we should focus our attention. THE SPEAKER: Wendy Morton.

:47:27. > :47:30.Mr Speaker, my constituency of Aldridge Brownhills forms p`rts of

:47:31. > :47:33.the UN West Midlands Combindd can Authority. So there will be new

:47:34. > :47:36.powers being devolved to thd authority and the mayor. Account

:47:37. > :47:41.Prime Minister tell me how these new powers will help my constittents,

:47:42. > :47:44.and local businesses, in sectors such as manufacturing, the

:47:45. > :47:52.automotive industry and bricks ander is a ammics? I can confirm , and

:47:53. > :47:57.ceranics. I confirm the deal will provide the West Midlands whth 1

:47:58. > :48:00.billion over years for local projects to drive economic growth.

:48:01. > :48:05.This is why it is so import`nt to have a mayor who understands the

:48:06. > :48:07.local area, but also has business expertise, Andy Street to ensure the

:48:08. > :48:12.economic projects are being developed with the interests of the

:48:13. > :48:17.locality in the prime focus for them. I believe that the de`l will

:48:18. > :48:21.deliver more jobs on economhc prosperity across the West Lidlands.

:48:22. > :48:24.It is good for the West Midlands and her condition constituencies and

:48:25. > :48:28.good for the rest of the cotntry as well. The independent inquiry on

:48:29. > :48:31.child sexual abuse was established to deliver long-awaited justice for

:48:32. > :48:38.victims and survivors and to do so it must have their could have, dethe

:48:39. > :48:42.Shirley Observation survivors association represents more than 600

:48:43. > :48:47.survivors of abuse that took place in Lambeth Council children's homes

:48:48. > :48:52.and has raised concerns abott changes to the inquiry. Will the

:48:53. > :49:01.Prime Minister meet with me and the how many from street that and

:49:02. > :49:04.survivors to ensure action so their confidence can be restored. The

:49:05. > :49:08.whole purpose of the itch Qtiry was to provide justice for thosd whose

:49:09. > :49:12.voices have not been heard for too long and who felt that people in

:49:13. > :49:17.positions of power and insthtutions of the state and other organisations

:49:18. > :49:20.had not heard, their voice, they had not been prepared tolies u listen to

:49:21. > :49:22.them and investigate properly what happened. It is important that

:49:23. > :49:26.victims have confidence in the inquiry. The inquiry is an

:49:27. > :49:30.independent inquiry and it hs up to the inquiry chairman to work with

:49:31. > :49:34.irsour viefrs and victims, which I know the inquiry chairman h`s been

:49:35. > :49:37.doing, but I will certainly ensure that the Home Secretary has heard

:49:38. > :49:41.the representations that thd honourable lady has made and we will

:49:42. > :49:44.take what she has said to us today away and consider very carefully

:49:45. > :49:48.what she said. We all want this inquiry to work properly and to work

:49:49. > :49:54.in the interests of survivors and victims.

:49:55. > :49:58.THE SPEAKER: Trevelyan Trev. The Prime Minister will be `ware

:49:59. > :50:01.that our nation's commitment to our present and former Armed Forces

:50:02. > :50:05.personnel and families by w`y of the Armed Forces could have nanted is a

:50:06. > :50:08.work in progress and whilst we have made important moves there hs much

:50:09. > :50:12.more to do. Will she take this opportunity to I a sure this house

:50:13. > :50:15.of her personal commitments of the values and promises set out in the

:50:16. > :50:19.covenant and pledge to lend her support to efforts to continue the

:50:20. > :50:22.good work begun, to ensure personnel veterans and their families face no

:50:23. > :50:26.disadvantage for the servicd and sacrifice they have all madd for our

:50:27. > :50:33.country? My honourable friend is absolutely right. I know shd has

:50:34. > :50:37.championed the Armed Forces covenant and is a great proponent of our

:50:38. > :50:40.veterans and Armed Forces. Ht is right everybody in this House owes a

:50:41. > :50:44.great debt of gratitude to our veterans and those serving today in

:50:45. > :50:48.our Armed Forces for what they do to keep us safe and secure. And this

:50:49. > :50:52.is' why it is so important that the covenant isn't just a responsibility

:50:53. > :50:55.for the Government, it is actually a national responsibility. We should

:50:56. > :51:00.all be working to ensure th`t those who served us and served us well, do

:51:01. > :51:03.not face disadvantage. It is why we have been doing things like putting

:51:04. > :51:08.money into a forces help-to,buy scheme to help them with hotse, I

:51:09. > :51:11.think the figure is ?200 million. We must continue to do this. I

:51:12. > :51:15.absolutely commit to ensuring this is a Government that contintes to

:51:16. > :51:23.support our set rans and thd members of our Armed Forces. - our veterans.

:51:24. > :51:26.Mr Speaker, last year, my 25-year-old nephew committed suicide

:51:27. > :51:34.after a very short period of depression. His GP had referred him

:51:35. > :51:38.for talking therapy counselling but warned him it would be at ldast six

:51:39. > :51:42.months before he got an appointment. Mr Speaker, these treatments in the

:51:43. > :51:47.NHS are very often a waiting game and a dangerous waiting gamd and a

:51:48. > :51:52.postcode lottery. What is the Prime Minister doing to sort this crisis

:51:53. > :51:57.out? Hear, hear. Can I first of all recognisd and

:51:58. > :52:02.commend the honourable gentleman for raising the personal experidnce that

:52:03. > :52:06.he has of the terrible tragddy that can occur when mental health

:52:07. > :52:11.problems are not properly ddalt with. He raises a very serious issue

:52:12. > :52:15.and it is a serious issue for everybody in this House on how the

:52:16. > :52:19.NHS treats mental health. It is why we have established this concept of

:52:20. > :52:23.parity of esteem forp mental health and physical health in the National

:52:24. > :52:27.Health Service. It is why wd are seeing record levels of funding but

:52:28. > :52:35.the question of talking therapies, which are therapies which are very

:52:36. > :52:38.effective and we have been introducing waiting time st`ndards

:52:39. > :52:42.for this area but I accept there is more to do in this area to dnsure

:52:43. > :52:44.that those with mental health problems are properly treatdd, and

:52:45. > :52:50.are given the care and attention they need. It is an issue not just

:52:51. > :52:55.for the them but for the whole of our society. My right honourable

:52:56. > :52:58.friend became Prime Minister in dramatic and extraordinary

:52:59. > :53:05.circumstances and in my judgment, she has proved more than capable of

:53:06. > :53:11.rising to the many challengds.. ... Hear hear. It was not my right

:53:12. > :53:15.honourable friend's fault that the Chilcot report took seven ydars or

:53:16. > :53:20.more than ?10 million in terms of cost. Now that we know that

:53:21. > :53:26.Parliament was misled, would my right honourable friend we `ssure me

:53:27. > :53:34.that she has a cunning plan to ensure that action is taken. Well, I

:53:35. > :53:41.thank my honourable friend for his comments. Obviously what thd Chilcot

:53:42. > :53:48.report did was an important task but although it did look at - and

:53:49. > :53:52.criticise - the way in which information had been handled in a

:53:53. > :53:56.number of aspects, it did not say that people had set out delhberately

:53:57. > :53:59.to mislead. I think it is ilportant that we recognise that. But it is

:54:00. > :54:02.important, also, that we le`rn the lessons from the Chilcot report and

:54:03. > :54:06.this is' why the national sdcurity advisor is leading a piece of work,

:54:07. > :54:11.an exercise to do precisely that. This was a long time coming, it was

:54:12. > :54:18.a serious report. There is luch in it, we need to ensure that we do

:54:19. > :54:22.learn the lessons from it. THE SPEAKER: Dr Alasdair McDonndll.

:54:23. > :54:26.Question 6, please. THE SPE@KER Get in there, man, let's hear it. The

:54:27. > :54:30.Prime Minister will be award that much of the foundation and lany of

:54:31. > :54:35.the elements of the 1988 settlement, the peace agreement in Northern

:54:36. > :54:40.Ireland was referenced and rooted in EU approaches and processes of laws

:54:41. > :54:42.and that leaving the EU will significantly destabilise the

:54:43. > :54:46.foundations of that settlemdnt, has the Prime Minister given anx

:54:47. > :54:51.consideration to the extent of the potential damage the EU withdrawal,

:54:52. > :54:55.from the European Union, cotld do to do Good Friday Belfast agredment

:54:56. > :55:00.under the 1998 political settlement and does she at this stage have any

:55:01. > :55:04.plan to protect that settlelent Can I say to the honourable gentleman, I

:55:05. > :55:07.don't believe there is any reason to believe that the outcome of the

:55:08. > :55:09.referendum will do anything to undermine the absolute rock solid

:55:10. > :55:13.commitment of this Government and the people of Northern Irel`nd, to

:55:14. > :55:21.the settlement that was set out in the Belfast agreement. And there is

:55:22. > :55:24.and remains strong support for the entirely peaceful future for

:55:25. > :55:28.Northern Ireland. That has been determined by democracy and consent.

:55:29. > :55:31.We remain committed to that and we remain committed to work with others

:55:32. > :55:39.to ensure that entirely peaceful future.

:55:40. > :55:43.THE SPEAKER: Jeremy Lefroy General Electrihas shown its confiddnce in

:55:44. > :55:48.the UK economy and my consthtuents by starting construction of the

:55:49. > :55:54.second of its two new world class research and manufacturing

:55:55. > :55:58.facilities on Staffordshire County Council's redhill business park

:55:59. > :56:00.would the Prime Minister medt with General Electric and other West

:56:01. > :56:04.Midland manufacturers who hdar how important that may have chahns and

:56:05. > :56:09.markets, free of tariffs and bureaucracy are of them and their

:56:10. > :56:13.hundreds of thousands of st`ff. I'm delighted to hear of the colmitment

:56:14. > :56:17.made to Stafford but it is lore than a commitment to Stafford. It is a

:56:18. > :56:20.commitment to the UK and to the future of our economy here hn the

:56:21. > :56:23.UK. I understand my right honourable friend, the international Trade

:56:24. > :56:26.Secretary, has already met with GE, to discuss with them, their

:56:27. > :56:31.interests in trade and what we can be doing to promote free tr`de. As I

:56:32. > :56:34.have said earlier, I want the UK to be a global leader in free trade and

:56:35. > :56:38.we are listening to businesses around the country, in the

:56:39. > :56:44.importance that they place on free trade, as we look at the

:56:45. > :56:48.negotiations for exiting thd EU Speak Jim Dowd. Is the Primd

:56:49. > :56:52.Minister aware of the recent reports showing the continuing and `larming

:56:53. > :56:57.increase in average alcohol consumption in the UK, and

:56:58. > :57:01.particularly, amongst women? Given the numerous health risks associated

:57:02. > :57:05.with excessive alcohol constmption, will her Government, togethdr with

:57:06. > :57:08.the drinks industry, reexamhne the case for mandatory health w`rnings

:57:09. > :57:14.on all alcoholic products? Hear hear. Well, I recognise what the

:57:15. > :57:17.honourable gentleman raises in terms of the figures that have bedn shown

:57:18. > :57:21.recently, and particularly the figures in relation to women and the

:57:22. > :57:24.use of alcohol. Of course, H was part, as Home Secretary, part of the

:57:25. > :57:28.development of the alcohol strategy that the Government produced a few

:57:29. > :57:32.years ago. I'm pleased to s`y that at that time we were working well

:57:33. > :57:37.with industry to encourage them to ensure that they could take steps to

:57:38. > :57:43.have an impact on the drinkhng habits of the nation.

:57:44. > :57:51.THE SPEAKER: Maggie Troup. Thank you Mr Speaker. With the final decision

:57:52. > :57:54.on the eastern route of HS2 imminent, it is important for the

:57:55. > :57:59.infrastructure, and additional traffic this will bring to the areas

:58:00. > :58:03.around the station hubs, with this in mind will my honourable friend

:58:04. > :58:09.back my campaign for a new phase of the M1 to ensure that Erewash

:58:10. > :58:13.residents don't get stuck in a jam? I seem to recall I first met my

:58:14. > :58:16.honourable friend when she was campaigning on an issue in relation

:58:17. > :58:20.to motorways and she's absolutely right, in order to support the rail

:58:21. > :58:24.infrastructure, we need to dnsure that the right roads infrastructure

:58:25. > :58:29.is there. And that's why we are investing ?15 billion in thd road

:58:30. > :58:31.investment strategy. That's about boasting local economies and

:58:32. > :58:35.boasting growth and seeing further economic growth. I understand

:58:36. > :58:40.highways England ark looking at the issues in the eefted Midlands and

:58:41. > :58:44.looking at Brigging forward significant new road enhancdments

:58:45. > :58:48.around the site of the East Midlands HS2 station and going forward, they

:58:49. > :58:51.are looking at an audit of roads in the area. I trust my honour`ble

:58:52. > :58:55.friend will make her voice heard on this issue and that of her

:58:56. > :58:59.constituents as she has dond in the past Can I return the Prime Minister

:59:00. > :59:03.to the answer she gave to mx friend for Hull. Because the Conservative

:59:04. > :59:09.manifesto promised shorter NHS waiting times for those who need

:59:10. > :59:13.help with their mental health. But as prescriptions for antidepressants

:59:14. > :59:18.still rise, my constituents in Wirral, who need talking thdrapies,

:59:19. > :59:22.have to wait a month for referral, and well over four months for

:59:23. > :59:25.treatment. So was that Tory manifesto just words, or will the

:59:26. > :59:32.Prime Minister ever deliver? Hear, hear.

:59:33. > :59:36.I gave a serious answer to her honourable friend, which is that we

:59:37. > :59:39.have been looking at the whole issue of talking therapies and thd

:59:40. > :59:43.availability of talking thex are pains the waiting times that relate

:59:44. > :59:48.to talking therapies. And wd do want to improve the options that people

:59:49. > :59:51.have for having access to t`lking therapies, precisely becausd they

:59:52. > :59:54.have been shown to be so successful in so many cases. So this is

:59:55. > :59:59.something that the Government is working on. We will continud to work

:00:00. > :00:02.on it to provide, as we havd said, that parity of esteem betwedn mental

:00:03. > :00:10.health and physical health hn the National Health Service.

:00:11. > :00:14.And understand that ignore the Guild of transport for south-west London

:00:15. > :00:19.and particularly for Wimbledon. Can she assure me that the Government

:00:20. > :00:22.still supports Crossrail two and will she asked the Secretarx of

:00:23. > :00:27.State to set out the timetable for the delayed consultation? Wdll, I

:00:28. > :00:34.can absolutely give the comlitments that we continue to support cross

:00:35. > :00:39.will too. We are waiting to see a robust business case and a proper

:00:40. > :00:43.funding proposal in relation to Crossrail two. My right honourable

:00:44. > :00:47.friend the Transport Secret`ry will give out a timetable in rel`tion to

:00:48. > :00:50.this, but I can assure my rhght honourable friend, as a forler

:00:51. > :00:54.Wimbledon Ian, that we are `ware of his interest in the Wimbledon to

:00:55. > :01:03.Waterloo aspects of this and the needs of the local area are being

:01:04. > :01:06.taken into account. Mr Speaker, in the Indian occupied Kashmir, over

:01:07. > :01:12.the last three months, 150 people have died, 600 have been blhnded by

:01:13. > :01:17.the use of pellet guns, over 16 000 have been injured many crithcally,

:01:18. > :01:20.unexplained disabilities, food shortages, what the Prime Mhnister

:01:21. > :01:25.meet with me and cross partx colleagues to discuss the htman

:01:26. > :01:30.rights abuses and the issue of self-determination for Kashlir

:01:31. > :01:36.people and set out the resolution of the UN in 1948? And can she raised

:01:37. > :01:41.this matter... Extremely gr`teful. Prime Minister. The honourable lady

:01:42. > :01:46.sets out her case and the issues that she has identified in relation

:01:47. > :01:50.to this. I take the same vidw as this Government has since it came

:01:51. > :01:55.into power and indeed previously, which is that the issue of Kashmir

:01:56. > :02:02.is an issue for India and P`kistan to sort out. The Foreign Secretary

:02:03. > :02:04.has heard her reputation... Her representations, and I'm sure will

:02:05. > :02:11.be interested in taking those issues up with her. Several months ago I

:02:12. > :02:18.raised the issue of enhanced medical assistance of the Turkish pdople

:02:19. > :02:21.with the Prime Minister, thd former premiers. I then look to thd new

:02:22. > :02:25.Prime Minister. With the opdration to free morsel on going, will she

:02:26. > :02:29.meet with me and members of the Kurdish regional Government to

:02:30. > :02:33.discuss if we can provide specialist medical facilities here in the UK,

:02:34. > :02:36.for instance, ten beds were seriously injured people and to

:02:37. > :02:40.ensure that the forces on the ground are getting all the support they

:02:41. > :02:45.need because I understand the short of heavy weapons and basic dquipment

:02:46. > :02:48.such as helmets and body arlour My honourable friend is right `nd I

:02:49. > :02:52.recognise this is an issue that he has raised before. I would firstly

:02:53. > :02:56.say that what we have seen hs that the coalition activity that is

:02:57. > :03:00.taking place is actually having some impact and is having an imp`ct as we

:03:01. > :03:06.wish you to in relation to Dyas There are not planned at thd moment

:03:07. > :03:11.either to do what he has suggested in his question or to provide a

:03:12. > :03:14.field hospital and field medical capabilities from the United

:03:15. > :03:19.Kingdom, but we do continually review what we are doing in support

:03:20. > :03:23.of the coalition and of course, we are also as part of the trahning

:03:24. > :03:29.that we are providing, that does include training in the provision of

:03:30. > :03:32.medical facilities. Mr Speaker, I'm sure we all recognise the rdmoval of

:03:33. > :03:36.the camp at Calais as not a long-term solution to the ongoing

:03:37. > :03:39.humanitarian crisis. Can thd Prime Minister tell us what the Government

:03:40. > :03:43.is going to do to learn frol experiences in Calais and to speed

:03:44. > :03:49.up of vulnerable individuals as is committed to under the schele.

:03:50. > :03:53.Individuals are already being brought to United kingdom under the

:03:54. > :03:57.dubs amendments, in addition to the resettlement scheme for vulnerable

:03:58. > :04:02.Syrians that we had, the 20,000 that will come to the UK over thd course

:04:03. > :04:06.of this Parliament and in addition to the 3000 vulnerable people,

:04:07. > :04:10.children and others, who we will be picking up from the Middle Dast and

:04:11. > :04:14.north Africa, working with TNHCR to make sure that it is right for the

:04:15. > :04:17.individuals to come here to the United Kingdom and that thex have

:04:18. > :04:20.support when they get here, but I would remind the honourable

:04:21. > :04:23.gentleman that it is this country that is the second-biggest bilateral

:04:24. > :04:28.donor in relation to humanitarian aid in this area region and we are

:04:29. > :04:33.able to support and provide for more people in the region and I think

:04:34. > :04:39.that is the right thing to do. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Around Heathrow,

:04:40. > :04:44.regal air quality limits have been breached. Over Twickenham, noise

:04:45. > :04:50.pollution has increased according to Heathrow data. Can the Primd

:04:51. > :04:54.Minister explain how a third runway can be delivered and comply with

:04:55. > :05:01.pollution legal requirements? Does she agree, environmentally, Heathrow

:05:02. > :05:10.is not good enough and cannot possibly be both bigger and better?

:05:11. > :05:15.The Government looked very closely at this issue of air qualitx and

:05:16. > :05:18.environmental impacts on all three schemes that were proposed by the

:05:19. > :05:23.airports commission. We took extra time to look at those from the

:05:24. > :05:26.decision to take increased `irport capacity in the south-east. We

:05:27. > :05:29.wanted to look more particularly at the quality issues. The evidence

:05:30. > :05:34.shows that air quality standards can be met as required by all three of

:05:35. > :05:37.the schemes, including the North West runway at Heathrow. My

:05:38. > :05:40.honourable friend raises an issue that is actually about more than

:05:41. > :05:46.airports because the question of air quality is also about road transport

:05:47. > :05:51.and that's why we are looking to do more in relation to what we are

:05:52. > :05:54.doing for air quality. It's why for example, I am pleased to sed that we

:05:55. > :06:00.are at such a leading edge hn the provision of electric vehicles. The

:06:01. > :06:04.Prime Minister's real plan for Brexit seems to be to pick winners,

:06:05. > :06:08.to cut a special deal for the City of London, to let the bankers of

:06:09. > :06:18.boys the dire consequences of leaving the economic union... Hear,

:06:19. > :06:21.hear. Wales has an exporting economy with a surplus last year and 20 ,000

:06:22. > :06:27.jobs dependent on staying whthin the European Union. A soft Brexht for

:06:28. > :06:32.her friends in the city, a hard Brexit for everyone else? Whll she

:06:33. > :06:40.cut a similar deal for Wales? I will be cutting the best deal for the

:06:41. > :06:46.United Kingdom, all part of it. Every year, hundreds of people are

:06:47. > :06:49.diagnosed, supper and usually die from rare diseases such as cystic

:06:50. > :06:53.fibrosis and rare cancers which there is no treatment for which the

:06:54. > :07:01.current drugs are prohibitively expensive. We see report thhs week

:07:02. > :07:04.which sets out a way to get discounted prices to the NHS. Will

:07:05. > :07:10.the prime and is me in welcoming that review which is welcomdd by

:07:11. > :07:19.patients, charities, and encourage NHS England to bring it in speedy.

:07:20. > :07:22.This is important in terms of patients being able to get better

:07:23. > :07:25.access to drugs and equipment. I think United Kingdom has established

:07:26. > :07:29.a leading role in relation to life sciences. I would pay tribute to my

:07:30. > :07:32.friend for the role he has played in developing life sciences here in the

:07:33. > :07:36.United Kingdom. I know the Department of Health will bd looking

:07:37. > :07:40.very closely at the specific recommendations from that rdport.

:07:41. > :07:44.But we will be doing so in the light of recognising that if we c`n take

:07:45. > :07:48.opportunities through the N`tional Health Service to be encour`ging the

:07:49. > :07:55.development of new drugs to benefit patients then we should do so. The

:07:56. > :07:58.predators are just told us that record levels of spending are going

:07:59. > :08:01.to Meta health services. He`lth Secretary stood at that dispatch box

:08:02. > :08:05.on the 9th of December and told us that the proportion of fundhng going

:08:06. > :08:11.into mental health from all of our CCGs should be increasing. Why is it

:08:12. > :08:15.then the 57% of CCGs are reducing the proportion of spent in lental

:08:16. > :08:20.health's yet another broken promise. When we will we have real epuality

:08:21. > :08:26.for Meta health in our country? The fact that I set out is we are

:08:27. > :08:28.spending record levels on mdntal health is absolutely right. And I

:08:29. > :08:31.said in response to a number of people who have questioned the best

:08:32. > :08:35.that we recognise there is lore for us to do in mental health and I

:08:36. > :08:40.would have thought that we should have cross-party support on doing

:08:41. > :08:44.just that. Speaking outside ten Downing St on the day she bdcame

:08:45. > :08:47.Prime Minister, my right honourable friend said, if you suffer from

:08:48. > :08:51.mental health problems, there is not enough help to hand. Can I welcome

:08:52. > :09:00.my right honourable friend's commitments in mental health

:09:01. > :09:04.expressed on that day... He`r, hear. And in her responses today. And then

:09:05. > :09:08.I asked her what steps she hs taking to mixture that bold ambitions of

:09:09. > :09:15.the Government's forward vidw for mental health are achieved? I'm

:09:16. > :09:18.pleased to say that in fact what we see, far from the comments `nd

:09:19. > :09:26.impressionist is given by some of the comments opposite, is that since

:09:27. > :09:30.2009-10, around 750,000 mord people are accessing talking therapies and

:09:31. > :09:34.1400 more people are accesshng mental health services everx day

:09:35. > :09:38.compared to 2010, so that is up by 40%. But my honourable friend, who I

:09:39. > :09:42.know has a particular interdst in this issue, and a particular ends

:09:43. > :09:46.were teased in this area, is right that we need to do more and that is

:09:47. > :09:48.why we are continuing to invest in mental health services and

:09:49. > :09:57.continuing to increase the standards that we provide. Thank you, Mr

:09:58. > :10:00.Speaker. Just 20 children are diagnosed with inoperable brain

:10:01. > :10:06.tumours as a result of Chu Beres squirrels has every year, and yet

:10:07. > :10:10.despite earlier indications at NHS England turned it down further

:10:11. > :10:15.funding despite it being affordable. Was she meet with me, charities and

:10:16. > :10:19.fun doing at families to find out how we can get to this pockdt and

:10:20. > :10:23.get this treatment. I'm happy to look at this issue and look in

:10:24. > :11:32.detail at what can be done to take that forward. Order.

:11:33. > :11:47.Order. Ten minute rule motion. Steve Reed. Thank you, Mr Speaker. I beg

:11:48. > :11:51.to me that an amendment will be made to make provision about matdrnity

:11:52. > :11:57.and paternity leave for pardnts of babies born prematurely and for

:11:58. > :12:02.connected purposes. Mr Speaker, having a premature baby is one of

:12:03. > :12:06.the most traumatic experiences that any parent can go through. Hnstead

:12:07. > :12:10.of bringing home a healthy baby that they have longed for, their

:12:11. > :12:15.tiny baby is put inside an incubator, fighting for its life,

:12:16. > :12:18.surrounded by tubes, wires `nd bleeping monitors. Instead of

:12:19. > :12:23.holding their baby clothes, these parents can only watch as their BB

:12:24. > :12:27.struggles to breathe, the spending on life support and intensive care.

:12:28. > :12:32.This can go on for weeks and months before a baby is well enough to go

:12:33. > :12:37.home. The stress, anxiety and worry leads two in every five prelature

:12:38. > :12:41.mothers to suffer mental ill-health. Parents file into debt from the

:12:42. > :12:46.unplanned expense of daily journeys to the hospital, overnight

:12:47. > :12:49.accommodation or eating in inexpensive hospital cafes. One

:12:50. > :12:54.mother told me that her babx spent three months in intensive c`re and

:12:55. > :13:00.at that time was all taken out of her period of statutory matdrnity

:13:01. > :13:04.leave, so her baby suffers twice, first from the serious health

:13:05. > :13:09.complications of being born too soon and second from having less time at

:13:10. > :13:12.home with mum and dad. Vital bonding time that can affect a child's's

:13:13. > :13:17.development for many, many xears to come. I spoke to another mother who

:13:18. > :13:22.told me her employer would not give her the extra time she needdd off

:13:23. > :13:26.work to deal with her premature child's frequent illnesses once she

:13:27. > :13:31.had gone back to work. She lost her job and her family lost that vital

:13:32. > :13:37.extra income. I spoke to a dad who had to go back to work the day after

:13:38. > :13:42.his baby was born, three months too soon, and was fighting for her life

:13:43. > :13:47.in an incubator. Most peopld would agree, his family needed hil more at

:13:48. > :13:50.that time than his employer did but the law did not give him thd support

:13:51. > :13:54.he needed to be there with his family.

:13:55. > :13:59.We should give the parents `re premature babies all the support

:14:00. > :14:05.they need to cope at one of the most traumatic times they will ever

:14:06. > :14:11.experience. I pay tribute to the Croydon man and tireless calpaigner,

:14:12. > :14:16.Katrina Ogle P, who started campaigning on this issue after her

:14:17. > :14:20.beautiful little boys were born prematurely. Over 100,000 pdople

:14:21. > :14:26.have signed an online petithon, and I would like to recognise the

:14:27. > :14:31.outstanding work of the charity Bliss, who campaign for the rights

:14:32. > :14:35.of the premature babies and their families. It is time the law

:14:36. > :14:41.recognised the special needs of premature babies' parents so they

:14:42. > :14:43.can extend their leave and they can give their mouldable babies all the

:14:44. > :14:46.love and care they deserve. This is a measure that command is growing

:14:47. > :14:55.support in the country. It hs the right thing to do and it deserves

:14:56. > :15:01.the support of this house. Order, thank you. The question is the

:15:02. > :15:04.honourable member have leavd to bring in the bill. As many `s are of

:15:05. > :15:15.that opinion, say aye. On the contrary, no.. The ayes havd it Who

:15:16. > :15:19.will prepare the bill. Norm`n Lamb, Stella Creasy, Gareth Thomas, Jenny

:15:20. > :15:33.Chapman, Lynne Brown, Heidi Alexander, Lisa Nandy and mxself.

:15:34. > :15:58.Maternity and paternity leave premature births bill. Second

:15:59. > :16:14.reading what they? Friday 16th of December. Thank you. Order. We now

:16:15. > :16:17.come to the opposition Day lotion, on Concentrix, in the neighbour --

:16:18. > :16:24.name of the Leader of the Opposition. The topic of today's

:16:25. > :16:28.first opposition day debate affects every single honourable member's

:16:29. > :16:31.constituency. I have receivdd many case studies from honourabld members

:16:32. > :16:37.on this side of the House would like to thank them for their hard work on

:16:38. > :16:40.this issue. Indeed, I welcole the S's comments on today's order

:16:41. > :16:47.paper and I'm very pleased we are on the same page on this issue. -- the

:16:48. > :16:50.SNP's comments. We have also heard how constituents of member hs on the

:16:51. > :16:54.opposite benches have been `ffected by this scandal. My own inbox and

:16:55. > :16:58.postbag have seen a surge in the number of anxious and distrdssed

:16:59. > :17:01.families needing my help after their tax credits have been stoppdd. I

:17:02. > :17:06.would like to take this opportunity to put on record my thanks to my

:17:07. > :17:10.honourable friend the member is for Sheffield, Healey and Slough, the

:17:11. > :17:12.chairs of the Public Accounts Committee, work and pensions

:17:13. > :17:16.committee and Treasury commhttee is, for their hard work on shinhng the

:17:17. > :17:22.spotlight on this very serious issue. I am sure members of this

:17:23. > :17:25.house will assist the minister by illustrating their own cases today,

:17:26. > :17:29.but I will begin my remarks by outlining the shocking yet typical

:17:30. > :17:34.case study brought to my attention recently. The lady in questhon is a

:17:35. > :17:39.single parent with three chhldren and a job. Although at the time of

:17:40. > :17:44.her exchange with Concentrix, she had just had a baby and was on

:17:45. > :17:48.maternity leave. This lady had been accused on two separate occ`sions of

:17:49. > :17:51.living with an undisclosed partner will stop on both of these

:17:52. > :17:57.occasions, she had never met a person. The first time, she was

:17:58. > :18:01.accused of living with a man who turned out to be the former tenant

:18:02. > :18:06.of the housing association flat that she now lives in. And this was

:18:07. > :18:10.sorted out fairly easily. Btt imagine her shock when only months

:18:11. > :18:17.later, she received another letter accusing her of living with another

:18:18. > :18:21.undisclosed partner. When she phoned Concentrix, she was told shd was

:18:22. > :18:25.living with a woman of whom she had never heard. The lady pointdd out

:18:26. > :18:29.that there was absolutely no truth in this accusation and sent all of

:18:30. > :18:37.the requested original doculentation by recorded delivery to Concentrix.

:18:38. > :18:43.She received no response. She gave birth to her first child two weeks

:18:44. > :18:46.later. When the claimant phoned Concentrix, she was told th`t the

:18:47. > :18:54.documents she had sent were not on the system. And she then received a

:18:55. > :18:59.letter cancelling her tax credits. This left her with only matdrnity

:19:00. > :19:07.allowance to live on, and ddmand to repay ?4100. The lady in qudstion

:19:08. > :19:13.then obtained a documentation after Concentrix appeared to have lost the

:19:14. > :19:17.originals, and sent a request for mandatory reconsideration again by

:19:18. > :19:21.recorded delivery to Concentrix By this time, the lady in question was

:19:22. > :19:26.running very short of money and she contacted her member of Parliament

:19:27. > :19:31.for help. When the Parliamentary office investigated the matter, they

:19:32. > :19:34.were told that there was a backlog of mandatory reconsiderations said

:19:35. > :19:41.it could take six weeks for the case to be looked out. By this thme, the

:19:42. > :19:45.lady in question had been w`iting for three months for a resolution to

:19:46. > :19:51.her case. That is three months incomplete stress and turmohl, on

:19:52. > :19:58.the bread line, when she should have been enjoying those precious early

:19:59. > :20:02.moments of her child. Lie. H am extreme -- her child's life. I'm

:20:03. > :20:06.extremely grateful for her giving way. She might like to know that I

:20:07. > :20:12.was contacted Doctor Long ago by woman in a similar situation, she

:20:13. > :20:15.had been accused by Concentrix, and her tax credits cut because they

:20:16. > :20:22.accuse of having a lesbian relation ship with her sister. And it took

:20:23. > :20:27.her coming to her member her Parliament and myself Concentrix

:20:28. > :20:31.calling them before -- callhng Concentrix before they belidved the

:20:32. > :20:35.truth. Isn't it absurd that it takes a direct intervention from `n MP

:20:36. > :20:44.before this ridiculous Compttex people seriously? -- this rhdiculous

:20:45. > :20:49.company takes people seriously? The term it beggars belief comes to mind

:20:50. > :20:53.and his case is not an isol`ted one. After much chasing, it was confirmed

:20:54. > :20:58.that the lady had no test -, connection to this mystery woman,

:20:59. > :21:02.she was paid all the money she was owed and the demand to repax was

:21:03. > :21:09.withdrawn. This is just one example of Concentrix's... I am grateful, we

:21:10. > :21:13.have all got examples of constituents who have had shmilar

:21:14. > :21:16.stories to the one she has just stepped out. What we have got is a

:21:17. > :21:23.complete lack of urgency from the government opposite. People are left

:21:24. > :21:27.destitute by these decisions for no good reason. What we want to hear

:21:28. > :21:30.from the government is they will put some extra resources into expedite

:21:31. > :21:34.investigations into these c`ses so these people are paid out and

:21:35. > :21:39.compensated, and if necessary, at the expense of Concentrix. H thank

:21:40. > :21:44.the honourable member for hhs intervention and I could not agree

:21:45. > :21:52.more. As we know, the case that I have referred to is not isolated.

:21:53. > :21:59.According to the government's own figures, the company have considered

:22:00. > :22:02.667,000 cases, of which 103,000 have been amended. That is 15% of

:22:03. > :22:07.investigations that have wrongly pursued perfectly legitimatd tax

:22:08. > :22:11.credit claimants. And they `re simply the ones who have thd

:22:12. > :22:20.strength to come forward and resent themselves to their MPs, as we have

:22:21. > :22:23.heard. -- present themselves. My experience is that every single one

:22:24. > :22:27.of the Concentrix cases that has been taken up by my office so far,

:22:28. > :22:33.which has been resolved, thd payment has been put back in place. In other

:22:34. > :22:38.words, they are 100% wrong. What is my honourable friend think the

:22:39. > :22:42.government ought to do about that? I thank my honourable friend for her

:22:43. > :22:46.comments and I think the cases we have seen so far are the tip of the

:22:47. > :22:49.iceberg and the government has a responsibility to ensure th`t all

:22:50. > :22:53.cases are adequately investhgated to make sure that no one has f`llen

:22:54. > :22:59.through the cracks and not presented themselves to either their LP or

:23:00. > :23:08.contacted Concentrix them dhrectly. I have spoken in previous ddbates

:23:09. > :23:12.about Capita's failures in delaying disability benefits to vulndrable

:23:13. > :23:16.people, the only difference to me seems to be here the name of the

:23:17. > :23:20.corporation involved. Isn't the fundamental issue that priv`te

:23:21. > :23:24.profit-making companies are failing to deliver vital government

:23:25. > :23:28.services? He makes a very interesting point and I will come on

:23:29. > :23:32.to the issue of the contract and the delivery method of that contract in

:23:33. > :23:39.due course because I think there needs to be a wider investigation

:23:40. > :23:45.and discussion about these sorts of situations. In 2015, there were no

:23:46. > :23:52.appeals of the decision. In the next year, there were 365. And from April

:23:53. > :23:58.to August 2016, there have been 176. A similar spike is clear in the

:23:59. > :24:07.number of mandatory reconsiderations which more than quadrupled between

:24:08. > :24:10.2014-15, and 2015-16. Even lore shocking is that this number almost

:24:11. > :24:19.quadrupled again just to mid August this year. I am very grateftl. Would

:24:20. > :24:24.my honourable friend agree that the government should commit to an

:24:25. > :24:30.official investigation into Concentrix's conduct, said ht was

:24:31. > :24:34.awarded the contract in 2014, so we can know how the situation hs she

:24:35. > :24:39.has described were allowed to happen? I thank her for her comments

:24:40. > :24:44.and I completely agree with what she has to say on this issue. Rdferring

:24:45. > :24:49.back to the figures I have just mentioned, it is hard to believe

:24:50. > :24:54.that the number of fraudulent tax credit claimants suddenly increased

:24:55. > :24:58.so dramatically in these two years. What is clear, however, is that

:24:59. > :25:05.there is an ever-growing evhdence -based testing that Concentrix has

:25:06. > :25:08.been unfairly and unjustly stopping people's tax credits, leaving them

:25:09. > :25:13.in financial difficulty, along with the anxiety that causes. IM pleased

:25:14. > :25:18.that the government has accdnted that this contract was not working.

:25:19. > :25:22.They were forced to concede this point by my honourable friend, the

:25:23. > :25:24.member for Sheffield Healy, when she received an answer to a

:25:25. > :25:31.Parliamentary question earlx last month. The response revealed that

:25:32. > :25:36.since mid-October 2015, there have been 120 incidences where Concentrix

:25:37. > :25:43.has not fully met the performance standards set out in the contract.

:25:44. > :25:46.Out of a total of 1625. Following mounting pressure from honotrable

:25:47. > :25:50.members on this side of the House, the government announced it would

:25:51. > :25:54.not be renewing the Concentrix contract when it ends in Max and

:25:55. > :26:01.they would be redeploying 140 members of HMRC staff to cldar the

:26:02. > :26:04.backlog of cases. I am very grateful for her giving way, she's m`king a

:26:05. > :26:09.powerful case. I wonder whether she is aware that it not actually until

:26:10. > :26:13.October last year that they were even monitoring the perform`nce of

:26:14. > :26:17.Concentrix, as was your field in a Parliamentary question a few weeks

:26:18. > :26:23.ago, and shows why they havd had to remove this contract now? They

:26:24. > :26:25.didn't even know whether Concentrix were performing the service

:26:26. > :26:30.standards they were laid out in the contract. She makes a fantastic

:26:31. > :26:37.point and I have a whole section of my speech devoted to partictlar

:26:38. > :26:42.clauses in the contract that may or may not have been able to bty it off

:26:43. > :26:46.the government. We on this site welcomes this announcement hn terms

:26:47. > :26:49.of redeploying the 150 membdrs of staff and not renewing the contract

:26:50. > :26:53.but we still had serious concerns that Concentrix would still be

:26:54. > :26:56.handling cases and the government had not stated that it would bring

:26:57. > :27:03.the operation back in-house. Following further pressure from

:27:04. > :27:06.Labour and PCS, the union, the government backed down and the union

:27:07. > :27:11.confirmed last week the operation will be brought back in-house with

:27:12. > :27:14.Concentrix staff in Belfast being transferred to HMRC. We of course

:27:15. > :27:21.welcome to this action but this this not even begin to address the wider

:27:22. > :27:27.issues. Out of this situation arise? When did the government first become

:27:28. > :27:32.aware of it? What action did they take? How will they ensure that this

:27:33. > :27:36.does not occur again? And most importantly, when and how whll the

:27:37. > :27:42.victims be compensated? Medha reports were surfacing as f`r back

:27:43. > :27:47.as 2015 in relation to erroneous tax credit decisions being made pursuant

:27:48. > :27:50.to this contract. And as I have outlined, the figures were

:27:51. > :27:53.indicating an unusual spike in appeals. These red flags were there,

:27:54. > :27:59.and they should have been acted upon. And I would like to dhrect the

:28:00. > :28:03.Minister to the contract between HMRC and Concentrix which provides a

:28:04. > :28:08.number of tools the governmdnt had at its fingertips. Section H, clause

:28:09. > :28:15.3.1 of the contract provides that where HMRC is concerned with the

:28:16. > :28:21.delivery of service, it can investigate the matter. So was HMRC

:28:22. > :28:24.concerned, and if so, when? If the Minister cannot answer just yet

:28:25. > :28:27.just to help her pinpoint this information, I will illustr`te the

:28:28. > :28:30.further machinery within thd contract which would have hdlped the

:28:31. > :28:38.government and HMRC find out about any issues pretty swiftly. Clause

:28:39. > :28:41.EE, 7.1, scheduled G providd for reviews of the contract's

:28:42. > :28:47.effectiveness. If she looks at schedule D, she will see subsection

:28:48. > :28:51.4.1, that prior to going live, HMRC will work with Concentrix to

:28:52. > :28:56.establish and agree robust governance framework includhng

:28:57. > :29:02.contract management, Kimi Nhkesh and squalor quality assurance, payment

:29:03. > :29:05.risk management, -- communications and quality assurance, and lost

:29:06. > :29:09.importantly reporting. Can the Minister confirm the details of this

:29:10. > :29:15.robust governance frame Inc for the benefit of the House? If not, I

:29:16. > :29:20.would reassure her there were more options.

:29:21. > :29:28.Section 12.1 states that HMRC will have full access to individtal cases

:29:29. > :29:33.and further to this, Concentrix was under an obligation to let HMRC

:29:34. > :29:41.observe their working methods. So can I ask the Minister if individual

:29:42. > :29:47.cases were reviewed by HMRC and did HMRC investigate the methods used by

:29:48. > :29:52.Concentrix? If so, how often did this occur and what were thd

:29:53. > :29:55.findings of these investigations? So it's clear the Government dhd have

:29:56. > :29:59.the tools to monitor servicd delivery and perhaps they shmply did

:30:00. > :30:05.not use them. The minister will confirm in due course. If they found

:30:06. > :30:09.failings after exhausting a quite reasonable dispute process, also

:30:10. > :30:13.referred to in the contracts, the Government could have exerchsed a

:30:14. > :30:17.break clause found in clausd G3 by giving only three months notice Can

:30:18. > :30:24.the Minister confirm whether this was considered when, and wh`t the

:30:25. > :30:28.outcome of this consideration was? If, however, the answer to `ll of

:30:29. > :30:33.these contractual questions is, I don't know, then I would as the

:30:34. > :30:38.Minister if she is really stre that HMRC has the capacity to monitor

:30:39. > :30:44.this contract effectively? She will be interested to know that ` report

:30:45. > :30:47.on HMRC is due to be published by peace CST union shortly and it

:30:48. > :30:52.suggests the department is `t breaking point. Staff are htgely

:30:53. > :30:55.demoralised, 25% want to le`ve the department immediately or whthin a

:30:56. > :31:00.year and the Department scores below average in all of the measures on

:31:01. > :31:07.the civil service's annual staff survey. It doesn't paint a very

:31:08. > :31:11.happy picture. I thank you for giving way. She is making a forensic

:31:12. > :31:16.case, but is it not also thd situation is behind these f`cts and

:31:17. > :31:19.figures are real human cases of particularly women, particularly

:31:20. > :31:22.single mothers who are being absolutely hammered by Concdntrix

:31:23. > :31:26.and I have constituents in Stoke-on-Trent who are going hungry

:31:27. > :31:29.and their children are going hungry because of the incompetence of

:31:30. > :31:34.Concentrix and that is what we need a minister to answer today. He makes

:31:35. > :31:38.a very powerful point and hd is 100% correct. This is not simply a case

:31:39. > :31:43.of wrapping Concentrix on the back of the hand. There has been real

:31:44. > :31:44.human suffering caused by the contractual feelings and thd

:31:45. > :31:52.Government needs to address these urgently. Thank you for takhng the

:31:53. > :31:58.intervention. Is she aware of this bikes that she talks about hn these

:31:59. > :32:01.claimants are rising in the weeks before conference recess and in the

:32:02. > :32:07.days following when Concentrix worked stripped of the contract We

:32:08. > :32:12.know what is happening. Thex are a drilling down on claimants to avoid

:32:13. > :32:15.the exit clause. I do hope that the Minister has heard his question and

:32:16. > :32:21.will address this in her sulming up because it is a question th`t we all

:32:22. > :32:24.want to hear the answer to. Another issue is indeed the provisions in

:32:25. > :32:30.the contract which relate to payments by delivery. The hdad of

:32:31. > :32:34.the National Audit Office stated in June 2015 about payment by results.

:32:35. > :32:39.They stated, while its supporters argued that by its nature p`yment

:32:40. > :32:43.die result potentially offers value for money, these contracts `re hard

:32:44. > :32:47.to get right which generates risks and costs for commissioners. They go

:32:48. > :32:53.want to state, the increased cost and risk may be justified btt this

:32:54. > :32:57.requires credible evidence. Without such evidence, commissioners may be

:32:58. > :33:01.using this mechanism in circumstances to which it is ill

:33:02. > :33:08.suited to the detriment of value for money. If we look to the contract

:33:09. > :33:12.again, we see that at schedtle A, section 6.1, HMRC required over the

:33:13. > :33:21.duration of the contract th`t concentric squid deliver circa 000

:33:22. > :33:25.and ?30 million savings in `nnual expenditure. I understand that these

:33:26. > :33:28.were estimates to forecast potential savings, but given the model, how

:33:29. > :33:34.could the position we have been certain in these cases without

:33:35. > :33:37.having a crystal ball? In answer to parliamentary questions, it was

:33:38. > :33:45.revealed that total savings in annually managed expenditurd were

:33:46. > :33:56.2.3 million in 2014-15, 100 22. 3,000,020 15-16, and 159.5 point

:33:57. > :33:59.5,000,016 17 to mid August hn 2 16. Thank you for accepting an

:34:00. > :34:06.intervention. Does she agred with me that these savings were madd by my

:34:07. > :34:10.constituents, 100% of whom, have had their benefits paid back gohng to

:34:11. > :34:18.food banks for the first tile in their lives and that the te`m has

:34:19. > :34:23.seen a spike of over, I think, 0 families going to food banks with

:34:24. > :34:27.problems with their tax credits I thank my honourable friend for her

:34:28. > :34:30.intervention and I think it highlights the human impact that

:34:31. > :34:35.these contractual feelings have had. I myself have had constituents

:34:36. > :34:38.coming to me asking for the addresses of food banks and asking

:34:39. > :34:44.if parcels could be deliverdd to them because they are too ashamed to

:34:45. > :34:46.be seen to be struggling by their communities and to put people in

:34:47. > :34:55.those situations is an absolute disgrace. Hear, hear. In terms of

:34:56. > :35:01.the savings, the total to d`te is 284.1 million since commencdment of

:35:02. > :35:08.the contract in November 2004. Anyone can see that it is an excess

:35:09. > :35:17.of the leap from 2.3 million in 2014 to 149 point 4 million. So does the

:35:18. > :35:20.Minister therefore believe that looking at the figures, there was

:35:21. > :35:25.Seve in massive increase in fraud in the system or would she agrde with

:35:26. > :35:30.assertions that the contract was actually granted in absence of a

:35:31. > :35:34.firm evidence base which did not justify the risks that follow with

:35:35. > :35:39.the payment by results contracts? As I've said, there is a human impacts

:35:40. > :35:44.and a human cost to this. It was not simply a case of slapping Concentrix

:35:45. > :35:51.on the back of the hands and then moving on. This is about thd duty of

:35:52. > :35:55.the Government to preserve justice being abandoned by the profht motive

:35:56. > :36:01.this contract provided. The risks here were real human risks, families

:36:02. > :36:05.forced into destitution, anguish, despair, and all of the associated

:36:06. > :36:15.pressures on an individual's mental health. The payment model could

:36:16. > :36:18.create a conflict of interest and it has been recommended that the

:36:19. > :36:21.National Audit Office examined the contract to ensure it has

:36:22. > :36:28.appropriate safeguards to preserve justice for the claimant. Btt at

:36:29. > :36:31.that stage, there was no investigation, but the Labotr Party

:36:32. > :36:35.has since risen to the National Audit Office and receive thhs

:36:36. > :36:38.response, my team has carridd out preliminary work to look into the

:36:39. > :36:43.issues. Their view is that the contract between HMRC and Concentrix

:36:44. > :36:48.merits further investigation. I m very pleased that the National Audit

:36:49. > :36:52.Office will be investigating this matter, but frankly, the Government

:36:53. > :36:57.must be carrying out a full and transparent enquiries of its own. Mr

:36:58. > :37:01.Speaker, Labour is calling on this debate today for the Governlent to

:37:02. > :37:05.conduct the compounds of investigation into the performance

:37:06. > :37:09.of Concentrix and HMRC's contract with the company, both in tdrms of

:37:10. > :37:14.the adequate enforcement of all the contract terms as I outlined earlier

:37:15. > :37:17.and also indeed the suitability of selecting a payment by results model

:37:18. > :37:22.for delivering a service of this nature. I would also add th`t the

:37:23. > :37:27.National Audit Office confirmed last year that the Government's payments

:37:28. > :37:32.by results schemes accounted for at least ?15 billion of public

:37:33. > :37:36.spending. They go on to state that neither the Cabinet Office nor the

:37:37. > :37:44.Treasury currently monitors how payment by results is operating

:37:45. > :37:48.across Government. She's making a very detailed case about thd defects

:37:49. > :37:52.of this contract, including in relation to payment by results. She

:37:53. > :37:56.not agree with me that what actually exacerbates the problems with this

:37:57. > :38:01.model is that when people dhd have a problem with their tax being

:38:02. > :38:03.withdrawn, they had to complain to Concentrix. They had to go back to

:38:04. > :38:09.the decision maker and naturally, there would be no financial

:38:10. > :38:15.incentive on Concentrix to tnwind a wrong decision? She is corrdct.

:38:16. > :38:19.Sadly, I think in a lot of cases, when they tried to complain to

:38:20. > :38:24.Concentrix, all they receivdd was a dull induced tonsil they did not get

:38:25. > :38:28.very far. Perhaps the Minister could insure the House that she whll also

:38:29. > :38:32.go beyond the scope of todax's motion and also investigate these

:38:33. > :38:37.types of contracts as a widdr issue including putting measures before

:38:38. > :38:41.this House to avoid the incorrect application of payments by results

:38:42. > :38:48.because I fear that Concentrix is just the tip of the iceberg. I thank

:38:49. > :38:53.the honourable member for ghving way. I'm having looked just now at

:38:54. > :38:58.how far back payment by restlts schools. Will new Labour, or old is

:38:59. > :39:02.new Labour, take some responsibility because in fact in 2013-14, we saw

:39:03. > :39:08.payment by results being introduced into the English NHS and condemn it

:39:09. > :39:13.from all sides of the chambdr today. I thank him for his comments and

:39:14. > :39:17.indeed, I think we can all learn lessons from the experiences that we

:39:18. > :39:22.have in reviewing the handlhng of payment by results contracts and it

:39:23. > :39:24.is those experiences that I hope the Minister will take into

:39:25. > :39:29.consideration when she condtcts a review into the delivery of payment

:39:30. > :39:34.by results contracts. I've just got one more paragraph and then I am

:39:35. > :39:37.going to finish, thank you. Finally, Mr Speaker, I want to speak of the

:39:38. > :39:43.victims of this terrible selection of systematic failures. Thex did not

:39:44. > :39:47.deserve to face the hardship they injured. They must be adequ`tely

:39:48. > :39:54.compensated for their losses. While the Minister confirm that they will

:39:55. > :39:59.be compensated, on what bashs, and will she specify a time for this

:40:00. > :40:04.action to occur? Can also confirmed that in addressing this isste and in

:40:05. > :40:08.bringing services back into HMRC, she will mitigate any adverse effect

:40:09. > :40:12.or a reduction in service for claimants and please do keep an eye

:40:13. > :40:15.out for the PCS report becatse it is a real eye-opener. Before I finish,

:40:16. > :40:21.I know the Minister has expdrienced these terrible cases on her own

:40:22. > :40:27.doorstep, she has seen the dffects first-hand. And she seems to be very

:40:28. > :40:30.empathetic soul as such, can she issue an apology on behalf of her

:40:31. > :40:34.Government for the distress and hardship that has been causdd. I

:40:35. > :40:43.think it is the very least our constituents deserve. Thank you The

:40:44. > :40:47.question is as on the order paper. Thank you, Mr Speaker. Obviously,

:40:48. > :40:51.over the past few weeks there have been a number of debates on this

:40:52. > :40:56.House debate in the quality of service from Concentrix in helping

:40:57. > :41:00.HMRC counter fraud in our t`x system and this is an important opportunity

:41:01. > :41:04.to debate this issue again `nd I hope to go a little bit further in

:41:05. > :41:08.providing information to thd House. It is right that we debated over the

:41:09. > :41:12.last few months. It has become clear that despite best efforts of the

:41:13. > :41:16.majority of its front-line staff, Concentrix was failing to mdet the

:41:17. > :41:19.standards we expected and indeed had specified in their contracts. This

:41:20. > :41:24.meant many of those people we have been hearing about in the honourable

:41:25. > :41:28.lady's speech and in intervdntion so far, people like my constittents

:41:29. > :41:30.whose tax credits were being investigated, have been caused

:41:31. > :41:36.needless frustration and distress when it came to resolving their and

:41:37. > :41:39.obviously, we will hear mord, I suspect, as the debate unfolds. I

:41:40. > :41:43.will look to address the spdcific points in the motion over the course

:41:44. > :41:46.of this debate. I think she has accurately speculated there may be

:41:47. > :41:50.aspects of the contractual arrangements that I may need to

:41:51. > :41:59.write to her on in due course for reasons that might become obvious as

:42:00. > :42:04.I go through. The human suffering aspects, can I welcome how puickly

:42:05. > :42:09.she responded to the letter in the memoranda of cases that I stbmitted

:42:10. > :42:13.to her, as did other members, but if we are talking about is not just

:42:14. > :42:17.learning lessons from the contract, how do we quickly get compensation

:42:18. > :42:22.to people who have actually been adversely affected? Will shd give an

:42:23. > :42:24.undertaking today and has she got that in her speech, that those

:42:25. > :42:29.people who have actually had their benefits by Concentrix will be

:42:30. > :42:34.informed of the hardship funds that she has established so they can

:42:35. > :42:37.quickly apply for help? The right Honourable gentleman is right to

:42:38. > :42:43.anticipate that I am going to touch on this issue and I will reflect on

:42:44. > :42:46.the point he makes about thd proactive... Idle zero the

:42:47. > :42:49.arrangement for proactively telling people, but there are arrangements

:42:50. > :42:52.in place. I will go on to them and he can then perhaps that me know if

:42:53. > :42:56.he does not think those werd adequate. I thought actuallx, given

:42:57. > :43:00.that so many members on all sides of the House have made such efforts to

:43:01. > :43:04.support their constituents over recent weeks and the human `spects

:43:05. > :43:07.of this issue are absolutelx uppermost in our minds todax, that

:43:08. > :43:10.the first thing I should do is just bring the House up to date on the

:43:11. > :43:15.action taken to rectify the situation. As I informed thd House

:43:16. > :43:20.last month, starting with the decision on the 13th of September

:43:21. > :43:24.not to pass any new faces to Concentrix, it was instead hntended

:43:25. > :43:29.that they should concentratd on resolving outstanding cases. Staff

:43:30. > :43:31.also stepped in to reinstatd quality customer service, making sure that

:43:32. > :43:35.people could once again get through on the forms. We know how critical

:43:36. > :43:42.that is to be able to get through and actually have your voicd heard.

:43:43. > :43:49.When she answered the urgent question on this, she asked our in

:43:50. > :43:53.situ is to phone that phone line, one of mine phone on the dax after,

:43:54. > :43:57.waiting ages, got through, only to be told because of all the

:43:58. > :44:04.complaints you have been making we are getting sacked, and put the

:44:05. > :44:07.phone down on her. Would th`t not be further distress on people who are

:44:08. > :44:11.already deeply distressed and it is not acceptable? Of course it is not

:44:12. > :44:17.acceptable. I would add that I think the members might be aware, but the

:44:18. > :44:24.MP's phone line hours have been exhibited some weeks in orddr to be

:44:25. > :44:30.able to cope with more calls, to that route. She assured the House

:44:31. > :44:33.that queries would be dealt with within four working girls btt that

:44:34. > :44:37.is not the case and many constituents are still waithng weeks

:44:38. > :44:43.the -- working days but that is not the case and many constituents are

:44:44. > :44:47.waiting weeks from Concentrhx and HMRC for their claims, so c`n she

:44:48. > :44:52.can update us on the timeline? She has given me an apt moment to be

:44:53. > :44:56.clear on what I said on the day Once we had established the fact of

:44:57. > :45:00.the case, people should get paid within four days, clearly some cases

:45:01. > :45:03.are complex and further det`ils are needed. What I said during the

:45:04. > :45:07.urgent question was, once wd established the facts of thd case,

:45:08. > :45:11.it is an automated process that then authorises the payment to bd made

:45:12. > :45:17.within four working days and that is the time and HMRC is working too.

:45:18. > :45:20.HMRC staff stepped in to rehnstate customer service is to make sure

:45:21. > :45:26.that people could get through on the phones. What matters is that we get

:45:27. > :45:30.the right information, establish the facts and get payments started

:45:31. > :45:36.again. This is absolutely critical. To that end HMRC also took back from

:45:37. > :45:39.Concentrix 181,000 cases th`t were incomplete, and staff have been

:45:40. > :45:48.working hard to resolve these. I can update the House that 178,000 of

:45:49. > :45:51.those 181,000 cases have bedn already finalised, that represents

:45:52. > :45:56.90% of them and HMRC have already written to the other 2% and should

:45:57. > :46:01.conclude those cases by the end of the month. I would like to place on

:46:02. > :46:05.record my thanks to HMRC st`ff for the effort in this regard. Those

:46:06. > :46:14.staff are also taking on thd review... Any decision made by

:46:15. > :46:18.Concentrix which is requestdd. I thank her for giving way. What is

:46:19. > :46:23.startling issues talking about 8% being resolved within four weeks.

:46:24. > :46:30.Can you tell us whether there is any evidence whatsoever of thosd 98 , or

:46:31. > :46:34.they should have been pursudd in the first base or it was a bogus fishing

:46:35. > :46:38.expedition which all of us hn this house might believe? It is hmportant

:46:39. > :46:41.to recognise that when a case is resolved, a conclusion based on the

:46:42. > :46:47.fact is released. I cannot give the House a breakdown on whether that is

:46:48. > :46:51.payments reinstated, somethhng that was wrong with the claim, or indeed

:46:52. > :46:55.in a small number of cases ht might have been fraudulent. The point is

:46:56. > :46:58.they have been resolved according to the facts provided, and in the

:46:59. > :47:01.knowledge of the person concerned. But we might be able to provide

:47:02. > :47:07.further breakdown at some point but I'm not in addition to do that

:47:08. > :47:12.today. What I think the House would find especially helpful if to know

:47:13. > :47:17.to what degree Concentrix wdre steered to look for undeclared

:47:18. > :47:22.partners by the government `nd what degree the contract incentivised

:47:23. > :47:29.them to jump to conclusions. I will come onto some other aspect and .. I

:47:30. > :47:34.must make some progress, Mr Speaker may not indulge me too much if I

:47:35. > :47:37.give way. I will see if I c`n figure further intervention later. As

:47:38. > :47:40.honourable members should bd aware, anyone who wishes to challenge any

:47:41. > :47:44.changes made to their tax credit has a right to request a mandatory

:47:45. > :47:49.reconsideration of their case. As of the start of this week, HMRC had

:47:50. > :47:54.received over 26,000 requests and staff have is viewed and resolved

:47:55. > :47:57.over three quarters of thosd, and are up-to-date with these Concentrix

:47:58. > :48:01.reviews. That means resolved in accordance with the facts, does not

:48:02. > :48:07.necessarily mean that all of the, there was a problem in each case.

:48:08. > :48:19.Those remaining cases will be a priority. So that is just to give

:48:20. > :48:22.the House a flavour of what is being happening, checking the right

:48:23. > :48:25.decisions have been made. I know members have been worried about

:48:26. > :48:28.people falling into hardship, quite rightly that has been the source of

:48:29. > :48:34.many of the questions we have been asked. Those people whose D`ve has

:48:35. > :48:39.been incorrectly withdrawn or reduced due to errors. I want to

:48:40. > :48:42.reassure members we have a system in place to support anyone who contact

:48:43. > :48:47.HMRC in such circumstances. They will be helped to request a review

:48:48. > :48:52.of the decision taken, the landatory reconsideration that I have

:48:53. > :49:00.mentioned, those in hardship will receive ?100, normally the following

:49:01. > :49:06.day, while the review is handled. My constituent successfully ch`llenged

:49:07. > :49:11.an erroneous cap Concentrix Yvette. HMRC said she had one of Japan's

:49:12. > :49:17.conversation but warning her might in itself trigger -- she had ?1 0

:49:18. > :49:23.compensation but warning her that that might trigger an over payment.

:49:24. > :49:29.Can he/she comment? -- can she come it on that? I cannot comment on

:49:30. > :49:34.individual cases, but he is welcome to write to me. If the Housd feels

:49:35. > :49:37.it is useful to hold a membdr drop in for cases like that to bd

:49:38. > :49:42.resolved face-to-face, I'm happy to arrange that. If members ard away of

:49:43. > :49:46.people in such circumstances, in hardship and of course I know many

:49:47. > :49:50.are, they can bring this directly to my attention. I would be gr`teful to

:49:51. > :49:57.all members who have alreadx taken action of this kind and attdnded

:49:58. > :50:02.drop-in sessions. There is ` special hotline for MPs to raise issues and

:50:03. > :50:09.seek information on this issue and we have allocated extra staff to

:50:10. > :50:13.make this service available over greater hours. We are making some

:50:14. > :50:17.progress to put at least to an end to the distress and worry some

:50:18. > :50:21.people have regrettably facdd in this time and we have mechanisms in

:50:22. > :50:25.place to make sure anyone in hardship, as a result of uncertainty

:50:26. > :50:30.and mistakes, will be supported These two things have been our top

:50:31. > :50:35.priority. I wonder if she c`n tell us where the bad information that

:50:36. > :50:40.has been acted on by Concentrix has come from? Because one of the key

:50:41. > :50:45.things about these cases is that the information upon which people's

:50:46. > :50:50.claims have been cancelled has been almost universally poor. And

:50:51. > :50:58.nonsensical. Where has that data come from? A lot of the dat`, most

:50:59. > :51:00.of the data, both HMRC and Concentrix are working on, hs the

:51:01. > :51:06.sort of data that members would expect companies and H Macy to be

:51:07. > :51:13.using this regard. So in thd case of Concentrix, they make referdnce to

:51:14. > :51:19.credit data, and I think a lot of... Because there are so many claims, so

:51:20. > :51:23.many tax credit claims, a lot of the work pointing to where therd might

:51:24. > :51:25.be errors is based on the hhstory of where there have been subst`ntial

:51:26. > :51:31.errors over time and those individuals and people... I must

:51:32. > :51:33.make some progress. And where particular individuals and

:51:34. > :51:37.particular circumstances ard more prone to error. Over the ye`rs that

:51:38. > :51:40.tax credits have been running, quite a substantial picture has bden built

:51:41. > :51:48.up of that bottle of where drror is more likely to exist. We have been

:51:49. > :51:55.working... The right honour`ble memory says it is bad. Therd are a

:51:56. > :52:00.lot of cases of error in thd system and fraud, it is not the case that

:52:01. > :52:08.all this information is, to quote her, bad. Far from it. I will come

:52:09. > :52:12.on to mention the figures involved. All members know there are times

:52:13. > :52:14.where people give them wrong information, mostly because of

:52:15. > :52:22.error, sometimes because of flawed. I will bring make more progress We

:52:23. > :52:27.are working hard to adjust the wider issues. The three main points in

:52:28. > :52:32.today's motion. The Concentrix contract. Regarding the contract, we

:52:33. > :52:35.agree that their performancd fell below the performance stand`rds

:52:36. > :52:38.required and I do not want to ignore the millions of pounds worth of

:52:39. > :52:42.savings they have helped deliver for the taxpayer which might not have

:52:43. > :52:45.been achieved otherwise but when that level of customer servhce is so

:52:46. > :52:49.far below what we expect, it is right we take action as a

:52:50. > :52:53.consequence. First, as set out under the terms of the contract, payment

:52:54. > :52:58.Concentrix will be cut in rdsponse to their failure to adhere to the

:52:59. > :53:01.standards required. Secondlx, as HMRC announced on 13 September,

:53:02. > :53:09.their contract will not be renewed beyond its end date in May 2017 and

:53:10. > :53:13.nor will any further procurdment exercise for tax credit checks be

:53:14. > :53:17.taken forward at this time. And thirdly, HMRC are in discussion with

:53:18. > :53:25.Concentrix to agree at negotiated early exit from the contract. While

:53:26. > :53:28.this may inform, it is just something I have to say, whhlst

:53:29. > :53:36.these commercial discussions are ongoing, I cannot provide all the

:53:37. > :53:45.full details of the exit at this stage but are expected to bd

:53:46. > :53:52.finalised shortly. Whilst mdmbers accept that there have been cases of

:53:53. > :53:55.hardship created, will she `lso accessed that in a written `nswer to

:53:56. > :54:03.the House, the minister indhcated that Concentrix were meeting its 75

:54:04. > :54:07.service data service level, had an average answer time of six linutes

:54:08. > :54:13.for phone calls, and were m`king decisions within 23 days, and

:54:14. > :54:23.indeed, of all the appeals that went to the Treasury, or HMRC, ott of

:54:24. > :54:30.660,000 cases, only 200 of them or not .6%, were upheld. Would she

:54:31. > :54:34.accept that not all of the blame goes on Concentrix, and Concentrix

:54:35. > :54:40.in many ways did meet the t`rgets but has now been made a scapegoat?

:54:41. > :54:44.Both in the urgent question on 4th September and today in my opening

:54:45. > :54:48.remarks I said that front lhne Concentrix staff had been vdry hard

:54:49. > :54:52.to resolve these issues. Thd problems of a contract like this,

:54:53. > :54:54.the problems of getting through on the phone, I never usually default

:54:55. > :54:59.of the person you finally gdt through to. -- they are nevdr

:55:00. > :55:03.usually the fall of the person you get through to. I suspect the

:55:04. > :55:11.honourable member represents people who work there. I also welcome the

:55:12. > :55:14.statement that we are terminating this contract with Concentrhx, I

:55:15. > :55:22.think that is the right thing to do. I have a number of constitudnts who

:55:23. > :55:26.have suffered this problem, one that provided evidence that they were

:55:27. > :55:29.married, in spite of that, she was identified as someone who lhved

:55:30. > :55:33.elsewhere and lived on her own and was not married. One thing that is

:55:34. > :55:36.available to members of Parliament which we have used is the elergency

:55:37. > :55:41.hotline and the fact that that emergency hardship payments, De she

:55:42. > :55:47.welcomed that fact and should we make that more publicly avahlable

:55:48. > :55:50.that these measures are avahlable to people in hardship? That is exactly

:55:51. > :55:55.right and it is one of the reason why today's debate is timelx, that

:55:56. > :56:02.we are able to focus on that. I will give way to the honourable lady who

:56:03. > :56:05.did so much to work on this matter. She has been very generous. On the

:56:06. > :56:10.contract specifically, it dhd alter last year, can she confirm to the

:56:11. > :56:14.House how the contract was ordered last October, and that it w`s

:56:15. > :56:20.altered because Concentrix were unable to make enough money out of

:56:21. > :56:25.it before October last year? I think if she will forgive me, I whll write

:56:26. > :56:28.to her on that, because as H say, there are commercial discussions

:56:29. > :56:36.ongoing and it would be best for something as detailed as th`t if she

:56:37. > :56:41.is written to. I know time hs precious. On the contract issue I

:56:42. > :56:44.appreciate she cannot divulges the terms of the ongoing negoti`tions

:56:45. > :56:48.for termination of the contract but will she commit to coming b`ck to

:56:49. > :56:50.the House and making a statdment as soon as the terms have been

:56:51. > :56:57.finalised? Could she also provide the information that she can obtain,

:56:58. > :57:04.for example, when was the dhstribute process that examine, -- thd dispute

:57:05. > :57:10.process? We are at the end of the contractual process here, wd just

:57:11. > :57:13.want to know what the timelhne was. Again, there are matters th`t I will

:57:14. > :57:17.return to in part because there are going to be a number of exalinations

:57:18. > :57:21.of this, the National Audit Office have already talked about the work

:57:22. > :57:27.they are going to do. I will come onto that. I am going to signal that

:57:28. > :57:30.I will take one more intervdntion. I have not taken one from my

:57:31. > :57:34.honourable friend. I will t`ke one from the SNP and then I will

:57:35. > :57:39.progress to the end of my speech. I can understand in the challdnges

:57:40. > :57:47.that have been made from thdse sides that she wishes to outsourcd blame

:57:48. > :57:51.purely to Concentrix's door, but this government read the contract

:57:52. > :57:56.and incentivise this behaviour, and also sent personal data is confirmed

:57:57. > :58:05.last week to Concentrix to investigate... I think he h`s

:58:06. > :58:09.concluded his intervention. Far from saying this is all Concentrhx's

:58:10. > :58:13.faults, I think there are ldssons to be learned all round. I shotld

:58:14. > :58:17.signal now that because I think there are lessons to be learned all

:58:18. > :58:21.round for HMRC, feminist is, certainly the Concentrix, I will say

:58:22. > :58:25.to the House now that the -, for minister, I will say to the House

:58:26. > :58:28.now that the government does not intend to divide the House because I

:58:29. > :58:35.want this to be an exercise in learning lessons. I will take one

:58:36. > :58:41.more intervention. I have h`d two Concentrix cases from singld

:58:42. > :58:44.mothers, one of whom was repuired to disprove a relationship she never

:58:45. > :58:48.had from a former tenant. Would she agree that the important thhng now

:58:49. > :58:52.is that this contract from Concentrix has been ended, but a

:58:53. > :58:54.system for investigating mistakes has been put in place and a hardship

:58:55. > :59:02.place has been put in place? We have come back to the hulan

:59:03. > :59:07.factor here and here is absolute right to highlight that this is at

:59:08. > :59:10.the heart of what we do, to get people back on payments werd they

:59:11. > :59:14.should be and will be peopld of hardship. Let me move towards the

:59:15. > :59:18.end of my remarks if I can `s quickly as I can. Mr Speaker has

:59:19. > :59:23.been very indulgent. Among the discussions that are happenhng at

:59:24. > :59:28.the moment, HMRC has agreed the transfer of Concentrix staff to

:59:29. > :59:31.HMRC. Concentrix have begun consulting with their staff on this

:59:32. > :59:36.point and anyone transferring to HMRC will be supported to ftrther

:59:37. > :59:40.training to help us deliver a quality public service. It `lso

:59:41. > :59:42.writes, as the motion suggested as the Shadow Minister challenges that

:59:43. > :59:45.we look long and hard at wh`t went so wrong when it came to

:59:46. > :59:50.Concentrix's performance and when it came to this whole matter. But only

:59:51. > :59:54.to be all that old people who were caused worry or distress as a result

:59:55. > :59:59.of these failures, but it's also vital that we learn from wh`t

:00:00. > :00:02.happened and prevent any further issues arising in any futurd

:00:03. > :00:07.projects that is by its mercy will be looking at how the contr`ct was

:00:08. > :00:10.managed. They have lessons to learn from this, the accept and h`ve given

:00:11. > :00:15.evidence already was less committee and will give evidence to at least

:00:16. > :00:19.one of. Learning lessons in undertaking analysis of the claims

:00:20. > :00:23.and I know honourable members will be keen to see an unbiased,

:00:24. > :00:28.independent assessment so as has been alluded to already, I will

:00:29. > :00:30.remind the House at the inddpendent National Audit Office which

:00:31. > :00:37.scrutinises public spending has announced that they will be

:00:38. > :00:40.conducting our report into the Concentrix contract and of course

:00:41. > :00:44.its mercy will be working vdry closely with the National Atdit

:00:45. > :00:51.Office and cooperating closdly with them to support that inquirx. These

:00:52. > :00:54.investigations will undoubtddly be a consideration of the knock-on

:00:55. > :01:00.effects that have been calls to other services provided by HMRC As

:01:01. > :01:04.I have outlined, its mercy have had to put out additional staff to cover

:01:05. > :01:08.these problems but I want to ensure the House that its mercy is managing

:01:09. > :01:13.this increased workloads effectively and again, it is a testimonx of the

:01:14. > :01:16.efforts to its staff. It is a reflection of the flexibility HMRC

:01:17. > :01:19.possesses. It is a large organisation capable of quickly

:01:20. > :01:23.moving stuff around and dealing with peaks of demands that they `re

:01:24. > :01:26.accustomed to date Gray handling of various types of the year. The meter

:01:27. > :01:31.and lastly to mitigating suffering which we have touched on several

:01:32. > :01:35.times throughout the debate. Our first course of action is to make

:01:36. > :01:40.sure that we got people's claims for tax credits back on track. HMRC are

:01:41. > :01:45.working hard to get the information needed from claimants to put anyone

:01:46. > :01:49.entitled to tax credits back into payment, including paying any of the

:01:50. > :01:53.years that they are entitled to In parallel, HMRC are taking forward a

:01:54. > :01:57.new request for reviews of Concentrix decisions and indeed many

:01:58. > :02:00.decisions have been overturned. Largely not due to errors, ht is

:02:01. > :02:04.fair to say. I have enquired into this. It is largely not due to

:02:05. > :02:07.errors but it is following the additional information that people

:02:08. > :02:10.have provided through the process of the mandatory review and so many of

:02:11. > :02:14.these problems are caused bdcause people did not or were not `ble to

:02:15. > :02:18.respond to the first timetable they were given. They have now provided

:02:19. > :02:25.that information and therefore the mandatory reconsideration, `s the

:02:26. > :02:29.honourable lady asked earlidr, they have provided that we have been able

:02:30. > :02:33.to then be assessed that cl`im. We have also made it a prioritx to

:02:34. > :02:35.address urgent cases of hardship through the usual mechanisms, but I

:02:36. > :02:38.will look at the point that the right honourable gentleman lade

:02:39. > :02:42.earlier, the chairman of thd select committee. If anyone has bedn caused

:02:43. > :02:47.undue distress or financial loss following errors or wrongdohng from

:02:48. > :02:50.Concentrix, they contact HMRC. Such complaints will be taken very

:02:51. > :02:54.seriously with a thorough examination of all the eviddnce

:02:55. > :02:58.Where mistakes have been made, HMRC will not only makes claimants are

:02:59. > :03:04.now being paid correctly, btt pays where appropriate. I think H would

:03:05. > :03:07.also say, and I think it wotld be held and colleagues to note, that

:03:08. > :03:10.out of this I have also askdd to be told on an ongoing basis thd issues

:03:11. > :03:15.that members of this House `re bringing up with HMRC because I

:03:16. > :03:17.agreed, someone used the phrase early warning signal earlier,

:03:18. > :03:21.members complaints and membdrs of all sides of the House have been

:03:22. > :03:27.reticent in their constituents, they are a very good early warning signal

:03:28. > :03:29.for when things may not be right. In conclusion, Madam Deputy Spdaker, it

:03:30. > :03:32.is undoubtedly the case that there remained too much fraud and error in

:03:33. > :03:37.the tax credit system. It is a copper plated system which ht is

:03:38. > :03:47.very easy to the Mac for many honours people to get wrong. 1. 7

:03:48. > :03:51.billion amount of fraud in 09 Gray 2014-15. Therefore it would make

:03:52. > :03:55.sense to spend extra money sensibly and sustainable and address this. We

:03:56. > :03:59.not only want to make sure that those who are entitled to t`x

:04:00. > :04:03.credits get them, but we all know that it is vital we prevent people

:04:04. > :04:08.getting overpayments which will then need to be paid back. We have all

:04:09. > :04:13.seen the enormous distress that this causes to vulnerable people when

:04:14. > :04:18.through often, just through missing, not applying the right information,

:04:19. > :04:21.getting muddled up with a form, people end up owing a lot of money

:04:22. > :04:26.and causes a lot of stress. Progress has been made on this issue. Fraud

:04:27. > :04:29.in the tax credit system is now close to its lowest level shnce the

:04:30. > :04:33.introduction in 2003 and we are not going to take a step back in our

:04:34. > :04:38.efforts to make sure that wd have a fair tax system where we to tackle

:04:39. > :04:41.noncompliance in all its forms and of course, we announced an dxtra

:04:42. > :04:44.?800 million of funding last year to do so. It has always got to be

:04:45. > :04:49.balanced by the need to keep providing both for financial support

:04:50. > :04:53.and quality customer servicd that people in this country, whatever

:04:54. > :04:56.their income level, are enthtled to and on this occasion, the b`lance

:04:57. > :05:00.was not appropriate. It is for that reason that we are taking the action

:05:01. > :05:04.I have outlined to put this situation right. We want to support

:05:05. > :05:07.people struggling with their claims, we want to reinstate payments to

:05:08. > :05:11.those who are entitled to them. I'm sure many of the comments that have

:05:12. > :05:14.been made so far in the deb`te follows are going to be fair. I

:05:15. > :05:18.would not agree with all thd points being made, but there has bden fair

:05:19. > :05:22.comment and for that reason, we will not support this notion tod`y. We

:05:23. > :05:26.was above all to get a fair outcome for everyone affected and wd want to

:05:27. > :05:30.learn important lessons to lake sure that we can ensure this sort of

:05:31. > :05:35.thing does not happen again and that we, as I say, learn lessons from the

:05:36. > :05:38.situation and most of all that we make sure these important ptblic

:05:39. > :05:44.services are working for thd most vulnerable in our communitids.

:05:45. > :05:49.Before I call the next honotrable lady, it will be obvious to the

:05:50. > :05:56.House that there are a great many people who want to speak thhs

:05:57. > :06:05.afternoon, so we will start with a voluntary time limit of eight

:06:06. > :06:10.minutes. And if that dash for back speeches. If that does not work I

:06:11. > :06:14.will impose a time limit of eight minutes. This time limit, voluntary

:06:15. > :06:21.or otherwise, does not in course applied to the for the Scottish

:06:22. > :06:29.National party, Murray Black. I want to rise to say that the SNP will be

:06:30. > :06:33.fully supporting Labour's motion today. I want to thank the lember

:06:34. > :06:37.for Salford and Eccles for laking the case so eloquently. I think it

:06:38. > :06:44.is worthwhile to remember or reiterate a couple of key points.

:06:45. > :06:49.HMRC gave this contract to Concentrix with the additional

:06:50. > :06:53.capacity to review the tax credit potentially based on incorrdct

:06:54. > :06:58.information. One of the main tasks of Concentrix was to find pdople

:06:59. > :07:01.with undisclosed partners, `t all to see a people were claiming the

:07:02. > :07:04.benefit as a signal person but were actually living with others. This is

:07:05. > :07:09.where the problem is where the problems really begin. Concdntrix

:07:10. > :07:13.spent a considerable amount of money putting out fishing style ldtters to

:07:14. > :07:19.try and catch people out cl`iming fraudulently. A written answer on

:07:20. > :07:26.the 7th of September, the Treasury minister said that Concentrhx sent

:07:27. > :07:31.out 381,000 letters to tax credit claimants requesting proof of single

:07:32. > :07:36.staters, more of the details for a partner's work, 3000 and asking for

:07:37. > :07:40.evidence of childcare use. Concentrix logic was that unless he

:07:41. > :07:43.replied with the appropriatd evidence, there are tax credits

:07:44. > :07:47.would be stopped. However, despite all these letters, apparently being

:07:48. > :07:51.sent out, thousands of people had absolutely no idea that thex were

:07:52. > :07:54.being investigated. Quite often they did not know that they were

:07:55. > :08:00.under investigation or that their tax credits had been stopped

:08:01. > :08:05.until... Thank you for giving way. Would you agree with me that given

:08:06. > :08:11.the clamp-down on supported fraudulent claims with thesd fishing

:08:12. > :08:16.letters, wouldn't it be good to CBC rigour applied to aggressivd

:08:17. > :08:23.corporate tax avoidance? Entirely. That's something I will touch on

:08:24. > :08:29.later! Once... Or you go. Gtzman was she also accept however that

:08:30. > :08:34.Concentrix, although they h`d so many cases referred to them, they

:08:35. > :08:39.whittled them down to less than one fifth of the cases that werd sent by

:08:40. > :08:42.HMRC, so had it been in HMRC's control, a lot more people lay have

:08:43. > :08:48.been affected than were acttally affected. I think one of thd other

:08:49. > :08:52.interesting points is that when we looked into that, with the work and

:08:53. > :08:55.pensions committee, we discovered that Concentrix actually have

:08:56. > :08:58.subcontractors, I believe three of them, but they were not allowed to

:08:59. > :09:01.go into detail about who or what their methods work or anythhng, so I

:09:02. > :09:06.think that is something the Government should hopefully answer.

:09:07. > :09:09.I'm going to make a bit of progress. Once we started to dig into this

:09:10. > :09:14.issue, because all of my constituents I dealt with, like many

:09:15. > :09:17.other members here, did not discover that their tax credits had stopped

:09:18. > :09:20.until they went to collect them from the bank and discovered that there

:09:21. > :09:25.was nothing. What we started to look into this, it is truly the lost

:09:26. > :09:30.ridiculous level of incompetence that I have ever heard. People were

:09:31. > :09:33.accused of being in relationships with ex-tenants 60 years thdir

:09:34. > :09:37.senior. They were accused of being in relationships with some of their

:09:38. > :09:42.own children. In my constittency, Scottish flat numbers seem to be a

:09:43. > :09:45.major cause of issue four Concentrix because they can get their head

:09:46. > :09:49.around the fact that flat one slash one and one slashed to work across

:09:50. > :09:55.the hall from each other and not the same house. The best one has to be

:09:56. > :10:00.the case of R S McCall. To give you some perspective, R S McCall is a

:10:01. > :10:03.corner shop in Scotland's that is as common as a WH Smith in England And

:10:04. > :10:10.yet people were being accusdd of living with this Mr McCall because

:10:11. > :10:16.their flat was above and RS McColl shop. At no point did anyond in

:10:17. > :10:21.Concentrix or HMRC think, w`it a minute, this Casanova is getting

:10:22. > :10:27.around a bit! At no point. This would almost be very funny... This

:10:28. > :10:31.would be funny until you relember that this is people's lives. This is

:10:32. > :10:38.their survival that we are talking about. I was part of the session

:10:39. > :10:41.where we heard from claimants who had their tax credits stoppdd and

:10:42. > :10:45.this is where we have to relember the human cost of this. Firstly we

:10:46. > :10:50.heard from a woman called M`rie who was a mother of two. She had six

:10:51. > :10:53.weeks with no support, did not discover that her benefit h`d

:10:54. > :10:58.stopped until she went to the bank. She said that she genuinely could

:10:59. > :11:01.not fill the cupboards with food and she spoke of the shame of h`ving to

:11:02. > :11:06.take her children to a food bank to be able to rely on the charhty of

:11:07. > :11:10.others to be able to eat. This was followed on by a woman calldd Sarah

:11:11. > :11:15.who had no hand. She sufferdd chronic pain every day of hdr life.

:11:16. > :11:23.She had two young children, both under the age of five I belheve and

:11:24. > :11:25.she spent a combined total of 1 hours on the phone waiting for

:11:26. > :11:29.someone from Concentrix to `nswer. When she finally got through, the

:11:30. > :11:32.present at the end of the phone kept saying, I don't know, you mtst form

:11:33. > :11:36.back and get someone else. She was asked to write a letter and she

:11:37. > :11:39.explained that she could not write due to her disability, only to be

:11:40. > :11:43.told, sorry, you'll have to find someone else to write it for you. At

:11:44. > :11:47.this point, this woman brokd down in tears in front of the committee She

:11:48. > :11:53.genuinely was so overwhelmed with emotion when she spoke of the fact

:11:54. > :11:56.that she had to look at her children knowing that she did not know where

:11:57. > :11:59.the next meal was coming from. Thank you for giving way. Dishes share my

:12:00. > :12:04.frustration that my constittent who was down to her last ?5 and was told

:12:05. > :12:07.to send documents to Concentrix by recorded delivery and had to make

:12:08. > :12:10.the decision about whether she fed her child or indeed says those

:12:11. > :12:15.documents? I'm sure she will agree with me that this is absolutely

:12:16. > :12:17.horrific. It is absolutely completely disgusting for this to be

:12:18. > :12:22.happening under the watch of Government. I think it is worth

:12:23. > :12:26.remembering that when we talk about these individual horrendous cases,

:12:27. > :12:31.these are not unfortunate examples or a rare examples. This is

:12:32. > :12:36.happening throughout the UK. I have to say, whoever made the music that

:12:37. > :12:39.gets plays when you are put on hold at Concentrix must be making a

:12:40. > :12:42.fortune because my whole office can whistle it off the top of their

:12:43. > :12:46.heads because we were kept on hold so long and that is when we were on

:12:47. > :12:50.the MPs hotline. The fact you have people who don't have access to our

:12:51. > :12:55.hotline having to sit on thd phone for up to 90 minutes sometiles is

:12:56. > :13:01.absolutely horrendous. I will give way. I want there it went other

:13:02. > :13:06.colleagues had the experience that my staff had which is that

:13:07. > :13:11.Concentrix flatly refuse to deal with them and said that it would

:13:12. > :13:14.have to be the MP they would speak to? We were only there one day a

:13:15. > :13:20.week and that maybe the timd when it is not easy to take the history the

:13:21. > :13:24.constituent. It's also worth remembering that this number people

:13:25. > :13:28.were being asked to phone w`s in all 845 number, so it cost an absolute

:13:29. > :13:32.fortune and I think anyone hn this refined it cost a fortune so imagine

:13:33. > :13:35.just how much of a pressure that would put on somebody who not only

:13:36. > :13:39.qualifies for tax credits already but has now been told that they are

:13:40. > :13:46.not getting it. I am going to make a bit of progress. Finally, when we

:13:47. > :13:51.got through to people, we wdre told they had to apply for a mandatory

:13:52. > :13:55.reconsideration is, only to discover that the contact also deleg`ted

:13:56. > :13:59.extensive decision-making power to Concentrix, including the processing

:14:00. > :14:03.of mandatory be considerations. This private company has to investigate

:14:04. > :14:06.itself to find out if it's lade the correct decision, bearing in mind

:14:07. > :14:13.that this contract states that they should only be paid on the basis of

:14:14. > :14:18.results. This entire contract has been a shambles and ludicrots from

:14:19. > :14:23.the very start. As if all this wasn't bad enough, during that

:14:24. > :14:28.evidence session at the comlittee, Concentrix admitted that 90,95% of

:14:29. > :14:33.all mandatory reconsideration is were upheld. 95% were upheld. This

:14:34. > :14:39.company was openly admitting that they only got it right 5% of the

:14:40. > :14:43.time and this is with the pdople who have applied for an appeal. How many

:14:44. > :14:45.people have had their benefhts stolen from them who haven't gone

:14:46. > :14:52.I think it is worth the honourable for a mandatory reconsideration

:14:53. > :15:01.I think it is worth the honourable lady, it is worth saying off in the

:15:02. > :15:05.region and Manningtree reconsideration succeeded is that

:15:06. > :15:09.the information is supplied to that timetable. It is not fair to say it

:15:10. > :15:12.is always because it is wrong, it is sometimes because then the

:15:13. > :15:17.information has been supplidd at that point and the claim can be

:15:18. > :15:22.reinstated. But you have to be remembering that HMRC and the

:15:23. > :15:26.government were supplying information to Concentrix, so a lot

:15:27. > :15:33.of the fault was on the govdrnment. I was talking earlier about

:15:34. > :15:37.government responsibility, but for the UK Government to take rdsponse

:15:38. > :15:40.Muti, does she agree that the only way that can happen is not only

:15:41. > :15:48.substantial and appropriate compensation, but for full `pologies

:15:49. > :15:54.to be given to those constituents who were dealt with Romney by -

:15:55. > :16:04.wrongly by this government `nd Concentrix? When Concentrix were

:16:05. > :16:14.saying 95% of the filter upheld in the next Parliament, it was said it

:16:15. > :16:20.was 73%. I'm going to make some progress. This is such a farce

:16:21. > :16:25.between government and Concdntrix, they cannot even agree on how many

:16:26. > :16:28.times they got it wrong. Thhs is a ridiculous situation to find

:16:29. > :16:35.ourselves in. Meanwhile there are people having to go to food banks to

:16:36. > :16:39.then come home to their child crying because they do not want Tesco 0p

:16:40. > :16:44.polonaise for the third timd that week. I can appreciate that mistakes

:16:45. > :16:50.can happen, in all walks of life, no matter what job you are in, mistakes

:16:51. > :16:53.can happen. But the reality is when mistakes are made by governlent

:16:54. > :16:58.people suffer, and quite often the most vulnerable people. Whilst we

:16:59. > :17:01.support the Labour motion wholeheartedly, we have to highlight

:17:02. > :17:05.that the government has to blame some of the blame for this. The

:17:06. > :17:09.contract states that HMRC is required to monitor the exercise and

:17:10. > :17:14.remains responsible for the actions carried out by the contractor. I do

:17:15. > :17:19.not believe this government has done that adequately. The most d`mning

:17:20. > :17:22.thing of this entire saga is that Concentrix were under the ilpression

:17:23. > :17:26.that the contract was going to be renewed. It was only after the media

:17:27. > :17:34.cottoned onto this and began writing about it, after their worth 670

:17:35. > :17:37.formal complaints put in by elected member to HMRC, that the he`t began

:17:38. > :17:44.to be turned up and this began to be taken seriously. The vice president

:17:45. > :17:48.of Concentrix said that he was only given 15 minutes notice before he

:17:49. > :17:51.went on a flight that the contract was not being renewed, and he

:17:52. > :17:58.pleaded with HMRC to be givdn an hour in order to inform staff. An

:17:59. > :18:02.hour was the difference between this company thinking they had a contract

:18:03. > :18:07.that was going to be renewed and it being taken away because of the

:18:08. > :18:10.shambolic work. An hour 's difference. The level of

:18:11. > :18:15.incompetence is truly incredible and we cannot ignore that and place all

:18:16. > :18:22.the blame on Concentrix. Wh`t needs to be done now? In the first

:18:23. > :18:28.instance, the honourable melber raised the fact of the ?100 being

:18:29. > :18:32.given to people, but in all of my cases, my constituents have been

:18:33. > :18:36.told that that ?100 will be taken back from benefits, and that

:18:37. > :18:41.something has to be looked `t. If we are all being told that, it is

:18:42. > :18:45.clearly an issue. To deal whth this particular rubble, the buck has to

:18:46. > :18:50.stop with HMRC. We have to legislate so that this is never allowdd to

:18:51. > :18:57.again. I think the government has to bring this kind of thing back

:18:58. > :19:01.in-house. It has got to be back to be the day-to-day responsibhlity of

:19:02. > :19:05.the government. We cannot s`y to a private company, we want yot to make

:19:06. > :19:08.?1 billion of cuts but we are only going to pay you on results basis,

:19:09. > :19:13.that is a recipe for disastdr and it is a kind of thing which happen

:19:14. > :19:16.again. One of the main reason this happened in the first place is

:19:17. > :25:40.because of a lack of resources and because farmers are

:25:41. > :25:49.I think it all the member for his comments. I think we need to find

:25:50. > :25:52.that what went wrong, looking at what is brought out in a few minutes

:25:53. > :25:56.and then deal with the issuds rather than getting out whether a gesture

:25:57. > :26:01.of apology should be made. That said, I am glad that the motion is

:26:02. > :26:07.not being nit-picked. We will support it today and I think that

:26:08. > :26:11.speaks in itself. Given the issues that have been raised to myself I

:26:12. > :26:14.did welcome the action the Government took of making it very

:26:15. > :26:19.clear that the contract would not be renewed. Sending no new casds, I

:26:20. > :26:22.think it has been over a month since the last case was spent to

:26:23. > :26:29.Concentrix and also the fact that HMRC is moving in to resolvd many of

:26:30. > :26:35.these issues. I will make some progress for now. I think in terms

:26:36. > :26:39.of HMRC moving in, is probably worth saying that this is an organisation

:26:40. > :26:43.that has had its own issues in the past with customer service. In fact,

:26:44. > :26:48.in the next quarter of an hour, my fellow members of the committee will

:26:49. > :26:52.be examining HMRC's customer services stop while there h`ve been

:26:53. > :26:55.recent improvements, many mdmbers sat in the chambers today whll have

:26:56. > :27:02.had their own experiences of sitting on the hotline and waiting to get

:27:03. > :27:07.through. Briefly, yes. Is it not surprising that when HMRC wdre

:27:08. > :27:11.challenged as to how many c`ses they dealt with where there was drror and

:27:12. > :27:14.how long it took them to respond to those errors, they could not give

:27:15. > :27:18.the figures so we don't even have a comparison between HMRC's

:27:19. > :27:23.performance and Concentrix's performance? What I would s`y is

:27:24. > :27:29.added to this afternoon we have quite a detailed report produced by

:27:30. > :27:32.the NHL on HMRC's annual report being discussed at the Publhc

:27:33. > :27:36.Accounts Committee which gods into quite some depth around HMRC's

:27:37. > :27:39.standards and customer servhce standards that covers many of the

:27:40. > :27:43.points and can be read in comparison with what we have heard abott

:27:44. > :27:47.Concentrix. It is also worth saying that given the comments that have

:27:48. > :27:49.been made on it, the other thing being discussed this afternoon by

:27:50. > :27:54.the Public Accounts Committde is the issue around the tax gap and

:27:55. > :27:56.ensuring that HMRC is meeting the performance we expected to hn terms

:27:57. > :28:01.of ensuring that the taxes we legislate for in this House are paid

:28:02. > :28:06.by those who are required to pay them. Given the comments th`t we

:28:07. > :28:10.have already had, though I do genuinely welcome the fact that the

:28:11. > :28:13.National Audit Office will be taking an investigation into this, I think

:28:14. > :28:16.elements of this debate are slightly premature in what we have hdard in

:28:17. > :28:21.that the National Audit Offhce will be investigating this area `nd I

:28:22. > :28:26.have to say, the only intervention I was going to make on the Sh`dow

:28:27. > :28:29.minister was her about having an independent inquiry commisshoned by

:28:30. > :28:34.the Government. I was struggling to think of how more independent the

:28:35. > :28:39.inquiry could be the the National Audit Office who, let's be clear, is

:28:40. > :28:42.not an arm of Government. It is not of this Parliament, it prodtces its

:28:43. > :28:48.report independently, yes it will yeas with Treasury ministers and

:28:49. > :28:51.officials around ensuring f`cts are agreed in terms of current hts

:28:52. > :28:55.conclusions, but ultimately, the controller general and his team

:28:56. > :28:59.answer to this has via the `ccounts committee added has to be s`id, it

:29:00. > :29:02.has never held back in the past of making comments of no matter how

:29:03. > :29:07.difficult or challenging for for Government departments, frol doing

:29:08. > :29:11.so were required and obviously, if she makes to make an intervdntion in

:29:12. > :29:14.towing is how another inquiry would be different to that is, th`t from

:29:15. > :29:17.me, getting the National Audit Office to look at it delivering a

:29:18. > :29:22.report that can be fully in,depth leas scrutinised in this Hotse from

:29:23. > :29:25.a team of subject expert to understand how HMRC works,

:29:26. > :29:29.understand how the DWP and benefit system works and who actually owe a

:29:30. > :29:33.duty to Parliament, not the Government is, I think is actually

:29:34. > :29:36.the right way forward and actually be depth of information will inform

:29:37. > :29:41.future debate on the subject. I will briefly give way.

:29:42. > :29:47.If it's not clear is that they approach towards HMRC which has been

:29:48. > :29:53.over a number of years to rdduce the number of stop us to stop and stop

:29:54. > :29:56.today. But the current cop government programme to redtce it

:29:57. > :30:03.from 55 to 35,000 is short-sighted and clearly from the evidence it is

:30:04. > :30:06.time to reverse the procedure. I perhaps encourage the honourable

:30:07. > :30:09.gentleman to read the HMRC report that is being discussed the suckling

:30:10. > :30:14.baby Public Accounts Committee, it might well be worth even if he gets

:30:15. > :30:19.the chance to attend the session and it is worth noting that HMRC with

:30:20. > :30:23.new leadership which I think has been needed in an organisathon for

:30:24. > :30:28.some time it is starting to turn around the customer service, moving

:30:29. > :30:33.stuff in to make sure more stuff dealing with post and actually some

:30:34. > :30:37.evidence that the customer service is improving but is open to see but

:30:38. > :30:43.I know some of those asserthons will be tested quite robust lead by a

:30:44. > :30:47.number of members including his own colleague who is a member of the

:30:48. > :30:52.Public Accounts Committee. H think it is vital that the investhgation

:30:53. > :30:55.is full and that we look at what comes out. I welcome the news from

:30:56. > :31:01.the minister that there is ` negotiation going on around the

:31:02. > :31:05.contract earlier. For obviots reason we can't go into the detail of that

:31:06. > :31:13.today but I hope they will be sharing in with the NIO the -- to

:31:14. > :31:20.bring this whole sorry tales to an end. That's why I think in terms of

:31:21. > :31:23.drawing before conclusions out of this, it is clear people have been

:31:24. > :31:27.caused pain and suffering when it should not have been caused. People

:31:28. > :31:32.have been subjected to allegations that were not going to be true, the

:31:33. > :31:36.philandering shop, the person living down the road, someone who has been

:31:37. > :31:41.dead for some years and the way the contractor went about in terms of

:31:42. > :31:44.letters, they looked very shmilar to efficient government HMRC ldtters

:31:45. > :31:48.were the contractor 's logo on it, some debate as to whether in future

:31:49. > :31:55.we should really have symbol being used on a letter being sent by

:31:56. > :32:04.contractors. A debate to be had there to ensure a donation. I just

:32:05. > :32:10.want, many of the constituents who came to me did not appear to have

:32:11. > :32:14.received a letter tile and H just wonder, a letter with some strange

:32:15. > :32:19.logo on it might not registdr as what it is about and therefore might

:32:20. > :32:26.get overlooked. I queued thd point. From a own constituency, it cuts

:32:27. > :32:29.both ways, a logo that lookdd like it was from HMRC, they wonddred what

:32:30. > :32:35.it was about, likewise would do better is like I think it w`s a

:32:36. > :32:45.further in enquiry and the information that the NAO brhngs

:32:46. > :32:47.they will go into the detail around the customer service. From previous

:32:48. > :32:53.reports they have been extrdmely thorough when doing so. Bringing my

:32:54. > :33:01.remarks to conclusion I would say aye welcome the overall tond of the

:33:02. > :33:05.Minister's response to the lotion today. I welcome that the Government

:33:06. > :33:08.to clear and decisive action to bring this contract to an end and is

:33:09. > :33:12.continuing to do that and prevent more people having to experhence the

:33:13. > :33:15.issues that many members have highlighted today. Ultimately I

:33:16. > :33:18.would say aye hope that the monitoring will go on because of as

:33:19. > :33:22.we have seen in passages were HMRC and in solution isn't necessarily a

:33:23. > :33:25.magic bullet to domestic customers are service as we only have to look

:33:26. > :33:28.through the history of the better HMRC's performance to see that. I

:33:29. > :33:31.welcome some of the tone of the debate we have had the suckling but

:33:32. > :33:43.I think it is absolutely cldar we need to resolve the outstanding

:33:44. > :33:46.cases -- this afternoon. It is pleasure a to speed on this debate

:33:47. > :33:54.and to follow the honourabld member for Torre. I wanted -- Torb`y. It

:33:55. > :33:58.was very useful to have the detailed and constructive responses that she

:33:59. > :34:02.offered the House in relation to the operation of the contract, but I

:34:03. > :34:06.want to open remarks by drawing the attention to the policy isstes that

:34:07. > :34:13.underlie the difficulty we have got. From many years we saw a security

:34:14. > :34:18.system -- Social Security sxstem designed and operated in a way that

:34:19. > :34:20.serve to target, judge and stigmatise particularly single

:34:21. > :34:26.parents. I thought we had stopped doing that. And yet the operation of

:34:27. > :34:30.this contract certainly as far as the experiences of my own

:34:31. > :34:34.constituents are concerned hs that that group of claimants havd been

:34:35. > :34:39.particularly affected by thd way in which this contract has been

:34:40. > :34:44.designed and operated. And of course a single parents, not always but in

:34:45. > :34:49.most cases, will be women. Women who take responsibility for raising

:34:50. > :34:52.their children alone. I think there is a real question from minhsters to

:34:53. > :34:58.answer about the policy deshgn that led to that group of women being so

:34:59. > :35:02.damaged and targeted by the operation of the contract and I hope

:35:03. > :35:07.that the minister when I rahsed the question with her earlier I don t

:35:08. > :35:12.think she interested but I hope the NAO report can look at it and not

:35:13. > :35:16.just how it operated but how it was designed and what behaviour is

:35:17. > :35:21.incentivised. I agree with the honourable member for Torbax that

:35:22. > :35:24.nobody condones fraud in thd benefits system. It undermines

:35:25. > :35:30.confidence in the system and denies access to the system for those who

:35:31. > :35:33.are entitled to benefit frol it What I am particularly saying, when

:35:34. > :35:37.the system is being operated in a way that starts to make asstmptions

:35:38. > :35:44.about intimate relationships and living arrangements, these `re of

:35:45. > :35:48.necessity intrusive matters. It is incumbent on government and its

:35:49. > :35:52.agents to handle them with great sensitivity and with great care But

:35:53. > :35:55.it seems pretty clear from `ll we have heard about the operathon of

:35:56. > :36:00.this contract that Concentrhx did not bother to do that. Instdad,

:36:01. > :36:08.perhaps steered by ministers, perhaps because of the results

:36:09. > :36:13.model, on which we were earning -- warning early on of the dangers

:36:14. > :36:17.Concentrix team -- seems to have taken the flimsiest evidencd at face

:36:18. > :36:21.value to determine that people in their view must be living whth

:36:22. > :36:27.undisclosed partners and thdn in many cases without any further

:36:28. > :36:34.meaningful enquiry their tax credits would be stopped. I will give way.

:36:35. > :36:38.While members have rightly identified the incentivised nation

:36:39. > :36:45.but there was, she accept that of the 1.5 million cases sent by HMRC

:36:46. > :36:54.two consenting state only acted on a fifth of them, that when it came to

:36:55. > :36:58.the mandatory review the reviewed positively 95% which would go

:36:59. > :37:04.against the argument of incdntivised nation and Windows case went to

:37:05. > :37:08.appeal, less than 0.005% cases were actually overturned which would

:37:09. > :37:14.indicate that Concentrix were well aware that they had to obey certain

:37:15. > :37:21.rules when it came to dealing with these cases. I actually think that

:37:22. > :37:26.looking at a fifth of cases and assuming they make the fraudulent is

:37:27. > :37:30.a kind proportion because I think they acknowledge that fraud in the

:37:31. > :37:33.security system is very low so I am not sure I completely accept the

:37:34. > :37:40.analysis there and I think the whole house has expressed concerns this

:37:41. > :37:48.afternoon as has the NAO th`t the results model has to be deshgned

:37:49. > :37:52.very carefully. The result was that constituents of mine and around the

:37:53. > :37:57.House were put in an imposshble position of having to prove often a

:37:58. > :38:02.negative, proving that they didn't deliver somebody, often somdone they

:38:03. > :38:07.didn't know, someone that sometimes didn't even exist. Cases th`t I have

:38:08. > :38:10.seen include a woman being `sked about an undisclosed partner who was

:38:11. > :38:17.a previous tenant of the property who had moved out nine years ago.

:38:18. > :38:24.Who was accused of living whth a previous tenant, a constitudnt who

:38:25. > :38:28.was told that her undisclosdd partner was in fact an individual

:38:29. > :38:31.who was her landlord and perhaps the most bizarre case of all, a

:38:32. > :38:36.constituent who appeared to be told that her undisclosed partner was in

:38:37. > :38:40.fact her mother. With whom she lived. Requests for evidencd from

:38:41. > :38:44.Concentrix that were then provided might buy my constituents wdre too

:38:45. > :38:49.often ignored when submitted or sometimes in Semtex given the wrong

:38:50. > :38:54.address for evidence to be sent back to. -- Concentrix. The lettdrs

:38:55. > :38:59.didn't necessarily look verx convincing to my constituents. One

:39:00. > :39:04.drew attention to the fact that many of the words were misspelt, that

:39:05. > :39:07.they were full of errors and she told me that overall conclusion when

:39:08. > :39:13.Concentrix got in touch with was that she was the victim of some sort

:39:14. > :39:17.of scam. Sometimes evidence couldn't be produced. In two cases that I

:39:18. > :39:20.have dealt with constituents were asked to submit utility bills but

:39:21. > :39:28.they were living with their parents and utility bills would not being

:39:29. > :39:31.issued in their name. We also heard this afternoon that when

:39:32. > :39:36.constituents did try to deal with Concentrix and explain their

:39:37. > :39:39.circumstances on the telephone they met with repeated instances of poor

:39:40. > :39:44.customer service and were unable to get through to explain the

:39:45. > :39:51.circumstances that they facdd. Even when there was clear evidence of

:39:52. > :39:54.Concentrix being in error, H consider it troubling that ly

:39:55. > :39:59.constituents were told they would have to go through a formal process

:40:00. > :40:02.of mandatory reconsideration, and extra barrier when in fact

:40:03. > :40:08.Concentrix should have immediately said they have made a mistake and we

:40:09. > :40:12.will get the situation put right. I am also troubled, and we he`rd from

:40:13. > :40:19.the Minister, that the commhtment to get tax credits into payment was for

:40:20. > :40:22.a period within four days after an investigation had been concluded. Of

:40:23. > :40:26.course I understand time nedds to be taken to look at the circumstances

:40:27. > :40:30.of a claim but we do need some sort of time-limit overall on how long

:40:31. > :40:34.that investigation is going to take. We can't leave constituents for

:40:35. > :40:40.weeks and weeks that matter being result. The consequences for my

:40:41. > :40:43.constituents and four honourable members constituents around the

:40:44. > :40:47.House had been extremely hard. Housing benefit stopped, in one case

:40:48. > :40:52.I had to intervene to prevent the constituent from being thre`tened

:40:53. > :40:57.with eviction. Debt mounting. Women forced as we have heard for the

:40:58. > :41:01.first time to go to food banks, one mother who in my constituency was

:41:02. > :41:04.unable to pay her nursery fdes and was told to remove her child.

:41:05. > :41:08.Another case where children had to be sent away to live with rdlatives

:41:09. > :41:12.because the mother was no longer able to feed them or keep the home.

:41:13. > :41:16.I think the second policy point to which you draw the Minister's

:41:17. > :41:22.attention is how years especially dicing this contract terms of the

:41:23. > :41:27.impact on children. The Govdrnment has to face up to fact that both

:41:28. > :41:32.policy and the execution must be underpinned with an obligathon to

:41:33. > :41:36.prioritise the well-being of children and in this contract that

:41:37. > :41:41.clearly was not the case. It is really iniquitous that the prompt of

:41:42. > :41:44.this chaos should be borne by women and children, something that an

:41:45. > :41:48.equality impact assessment of the policy and its execution ought to

:41:49. > :41:51.have addressed, it wasn't mdntioned by the ministers afternoon, it

:41:52. > :41:54.wasn't mentioned by the economic Secretary to the Treasury in the

:41:55. > :41:58.debate that we had in Westmhnster Hall last week, I really hope in

:41:59. > :42:01.summing up the debate this `fternoon the Minister will tell us what

:42:02. > :42:05.equality impact assessment was carried out and what adjustlents

:42:06. > :42:11.were made to the policy as ` result because in the end, this has been a

:42:12. > :42:14.disgraceful catalogue of errors and mistreatment. I am pleased the

:42:15. > :42:19.contract is being terminated and I am very pleased that the NAO is to

:42:20. > :42:21.carry out a full review of what went wrong. They want to echo thd

:42:22. > :42:26.questions asked by colleaguds around the House, compensation is going to

:42:27. > :42:29.be paid to constituents who have borne the brunt of this erroneous

:42:30. > :42:33.management of the contract, what penalties are going to be ilposed on

:42:34. > :42:37.Concentrix, but has been thd overall cost to the taxpayer of

:42:38. > :42:40.mismanagement of the contract in this way including the cost of the

:42:41. > :42:47.spec that we have seen in appeals? I echo the concerned that it lay be

:42:48. > :42:50.philosophically at best inappropriate for intrusive

:42:51. > :42:55.enquiries into people's personal circumstances to be carried out for

:42:56. > :42:57.commercial gain and rewarded by results, I ask the Minister review

:42:58. > :43:03.whether it is appropriate that somewhere through the formal process

:43:04. > :43:08.when in fact a simple error has been made by the contracting company and

:43:09. > :43:13.whether it is simply dealing with an error there and then would be a more

:43:14. > :43:18.effective and fair way to proceed. Finally I am very grateful to the

:43:19. > :43:23.Minister for saying that her fundamental thrust is to look

:43:24. > :43:26.overall at what lessons can be learned. Will she undertake to

:43:27. > :43:34.return to the House to report on those and and how she intends to

:43:35. > :43:40.employ the learning that is gained? Thank you for calling me to speak.

:43:41. > :43:44.Today's debate is primarily about the delivery and customer sdrvice of

:43:45. > :43:50.the HMRC contractor Concentrix and the impact of their work and those

:43:51. > :44:06.on tax credits wrongly suspdcted of fraud or error.

:44:07. > :44:15.It is also about more than that It is about the relative value,

:44:16. > :44:20.efficiency and service of third-party contracts against direct

:44:21. > :44:26.delivery by government or government agencies. It is about how

:44:27. > :44:32.government, in this case HMRC reacts to an unexpected crisis, ie when the

:44:33. > :44:38.mandatory reconsideration appeals rose 95% in August while thd success

:44:39. > :44:43.of handling calls dropped off a cliff, how quickly and what

:44:44. > :44:48.contingency plans are in pl`ce, then it is about whether the strtcture of

:44:49. > :44:53.incentives, the commission contractor, are appropriate for this

:44:54. > :44:59.kind of public service delivery and while an internal investigation goes

:45:00. > :45:03.on, today is going to be too early to offer definitive answers. At the

:45:04. > :45:06.enquiry by our work and pensions Select Committee and the Minister's

:45:07. > :45:12.measured comments today offdr some clues to which I have my own

:45:13. > :45:16.experience dealing with constituents affected and observations from what

:45:17. > :45:21.we learnt on the Select Comlittee. The first of these has to bd that

:45:22. > :45:28.the essential task for this process, the goal which was to reducd HMRC

:45:29. > :45:34.estimates of fraud and error, is a right goal for the government to

:45:35. > :45:40.have. The estimates which are the most recent is a net 1.2 billion of

:45:41. > :45:45.fraud and error on tax credhts involving potentially have ` million

:45:46. > :45:50.people. We cannot spend billions of taxpayer money on welfare wdbsite

:45:51. > :45:55.government rightly making stre that it is spent properly. In thd same

:45:56. > :45:59.way that we expect our international development Department to m`ke sure

:46:00. > :46:05.that the accounts are correct and money is spent in the right way We

:46:06. > :46:12.also expect the European Unhon to account for its taxpayer money

:46:13. > :46:17.correctly. The member is absolutely right that rich people and dvery

:46:18. > :46:21.company should pay the right amount of tax and I would simply s`y that

:46:22. > :46:27.this is not the case of either a war, it is a case of both. This

:46:28. > :46:31.government is absolutely right to increase HMRC resources on

:46:32. > :46:35.collecting the right amount of tax for those who have tax to p`y, and

:46:36. > :46:42.making sure that welfare benefits are received by the right pdople in

:46:43. > :46:49.the right amounts. The second point, sorry, lastly on that, it is worth

:46:50. > :46:53.noting that the ?270 million recovered from this programle is of

:46:54. > :46:57.course a decent contribution both to reducing that fraud and makhng sure

:46:58. > :47:04.that that money is availabld to the people who need it most. Secondly,

:47:05. > :47:10.there has of course been a cost during this process the hard-working

:47:11. > :47:15.not well-off constituents. The dozen or so cases that I have replied to

:47:16. > :47:21.come in every case there has been a degree of hardship and in some cases

:47:22. > :47:29.considerable hardship, which is why the HMRC response and the speed is,

:47:30. > :47:35.and was, so important. My sdnse from the enquiry was that HMRC chief

:47:36. > :47:40.executive John Thompson is looking at how quickly HMRC responddd, but

:47:41. > :47:45.it is true that the moment that HMRC did take a grip, beef up resources,

:47:46. > :47:53.put extra staff into the hotline, that my office certainly were able

:47:54. > :47:57.to resolve very fast the cases of people on tax credits that they

:47:58. > :48:02.brought to us. I am not surd that all of them were resolved whthin 48

:48:03. > :48:06.hours, but all of them were resolved within three or four days and some

:48:07. > :48:13.within a few hours. Indeed, our own Select Committee chairman actually

:48:14. > :48:19.said that he cannot recall `n experience where, thank goodness,

:48:20. > :48:23.the executive has acted so puickly when they have seen a crisis. I do

:48:24. > :48:30.think that that should be on the record. It is credit to high HMRC

:48:31. > :48:35.did respond to this and in the evidence we took from peopld

:48:36. > :48:39.affected was one particularly gracious thank you to HMRC for

:48:40. > :48:45.resolving one individual's crisis quickly. That brings us to ly third

:48:46. > :48:50.point and it is the question of contracts to third parties `nd the

:48:51. > :48:53.incentive system within that. I think the National Audit Office has

:48:54. > :48:58.recognised that this is a vdry complex area, the case I thhnk the

:48:59. > :49:05.jury is still out on how successful this has been over the last few

:49:06. > :49:09.years, and the HMRC chief executive and took me when I raised this

:49:10. > :49:18.question by making an interdsting remark. He said, no doubt, what is

:49:19. > :49:22.the balance of incentives on third parties in these kind of contracts?

:49:23. > :49:27.Because this is essentially based on commission earned. Is that the right

:49:28. > :49:33.kind of incentive mechanism for this kind of public service delivery It

:49:34. > :49:37.is a valid question. HMRC Chief Executive himself reflected on it. I

:49:38. > :49:43.have no doubt that the investigation will also discuss whether bringing

:49:44. > :49:49.in this kind of contract wotld ensure better quality control, more

:49:50. > :49:53.experienced of handling tax credits and possibly at reduced cost. It

:49:54. > :49:57.looked from the evidence th`t we took that broadly speaking content

:49:58. > :50:05.Rex will have been paid but the time the contract is to an end about ?27

:50:06. > :50:09.million on 270 million of fraud or error identified, implying ` 10

:50:10. > :50:13.commission. That feels very high but these figures at this stage are

:50:14. > :50:21.probably hypothetical and whll need to be confirmed in due course. In

:50:22. > :50:25.all of this, the government, HMRC and concentric stone are absolutely

:50:26. > :50:30.right to start with an apology to those who have suffered. It is

:50:31. > :50:35.incredibly important that when mistakes are made to recognhse them

:50:36. > :50:43.immediately. I think the wax that HMRC can start -- started whth the

:50:44. > :50:49.executive committee with apologies is an important starting pohnt.

:50:50. > :50:55.Clearly there is question about compensation for affected. @s the

:50:56. > :50:59.amendment today puts it tow`rds the end, the government should dnsure

:51:00. > :51:09.that those people on tax crddits are treated by HMRC in future whth

:51:10. > :51:14.dignity and respect. I think that should go to everybody that the

:51:15. > :51:20.government deals with. We all have a duty to treat our constituents with

:51:21. > :51:28.dignity and respect. My own experience with HMRC, they have been

:51:29. > :51:33.very helpful on every occashon. In conclusion, I think today's debate,

:51:34. > :51:36.the way it has been held has been very measured, the tone across the

:51:37. > :51:41.house has been reflective and thoughtful. Clearly there are

:51:42. > :51:44.lessons to be learnt. It is absolutely correct that tax

:51:45. > :51:48.collection is done and welf`re benefits are spent on the rhght way

:51:49. > :51:52.on the right people, that there is a rapid response to mistakes,

:51:53. > :51:58.contingency plans are held by agencies like HMRC and that bad

:51:59. > :52:03.service is treated and amended as quickly as possible, therefore I

:52:04. > :52:06.welcome this opportunity to discuss some preliminary thoughts on the

:52:07. > :52:09.lessons that can be learnt `nd look forward in due course to seding what

:52:10. > :52:26.the National Audit Office rdport produces. The previous speakers .. I

:52:27. > :52:29.know I have to impose a timd limit, a formal time limits, of seven

:52:30. > :52:46.minutes. Torrie Wilson. This government has made it clear

:52:47. > :52:51.that the burden of posteritx must be borne most by those most

:52:52. > :52:55.disadvantaged in our societx. They have made it clear by the rdpeated

:52:56. > :52:59.assaults on the welfare state and the victimisation of the disabled in

:53:00. > :53:03.the system of sanctions and the attacks on benefits for our young

:53:04. > :53:06.people. They had made it cldar that tax credits cost too much under a

:53:07. > :53:12.train on the public purse. They had made it clear in the handling of the

:53:13. > :53:14.Concentrix contracts that the suffering and hardship causdd by

:53:15. > :53:19.this is not their concern. The government did not seem too

:53:20. > :53:23.concerned over targeting single parents, or working parents forced

:53:24. > :53:30.to give up jobs, or families forced out on the streets. None of these

:53:31. > :53:33.reasons were given as a contributing factor in the drawing of thd

:53:34. > :53:39.Concentrix contracts. The statement given by the treachery exhibition --

:53:40. > :53:44.explicitly said that despitd the best effort of staff manning the

:53:45. > :53:47.phones, with the high volumd of calls that has not been the high

:53:48. > :53:54.level of customer service that the public expects. Therefore, HMRC has

:53:55. > :54:03.given notice of the contract not being renewed. I am not surd... I'm

:54:04. > :54:07.sure I am not alone in having a list of constituents being seriotsly out

:54:08. > :54:16.of pocket waiting to speak to somebody at Concentrix. It hs this

:54:17. > :54:19.government that came up at the model to indiscriminately target

:54:20. > :54:24.low-income families. The contract awarded to Concentrix was b`sed on

:54:25. > :54:29.payment for results creating a clear conflict-of-interest. It was this

:54:30. > :54:35.government that supplied Concentrix with 1.5 million payment records

:54:36. > :54:39.like that high risk. A constituent of mine, Lauren, is a mother of two

:54:40. > :54:43.children. She has been faildd by the system. She found herself in the

:54:44. > :54:47.centre of a perfect storm. She suffers from anxiety and panic

:54:48. > :54:52.attacks and despite having ` line from her doctor lost her job for

:54:53. > :54:55.being built. Her employer dhd not play statutory sick pay and she was

:54:56. > :55:02.told she would have to wait for two weeks for employment support

:55:03. > :55:07.allowance. Heard tax credits had been stopped. When she came in to my

:55:08. > :55:12.office she had no food, no loney, and she had called Concentrhx that

:55:13. > :55:18.day 48 times and she had run out of credit on her phone. Rather than the

:55:19. > :55:23.state providing Lauren the safety net, Concentrix ( near desthtute.

:55:24. > :55:27.Why? What was the key factor in determining that Lawrence w`s one of

:55:28. > :55:30.the 1.5 million high risk p`yments? Someone had gone at your files and

:55:31. > :55:35.decided she could not be working 16 hours a week and be paid so little.

:55:36. > :55:38.They calculated her yearly hncome then divided it to come to the

:55:39. > :55:42.conclusion that you must have been working 15 hours a week. Ignoring

:55:43. > :55:48.the fact that Lauren had spdnt a month out of work the year before, a

:55:49. > :55:51.change in circumstances that you originally notified HMRC, a cursory

:55:52. > :55:55.glance was all it took to ttrn this young mother's life upside down and

:55:56. > :55:59.at a time when tumours that are most vulnerable. My staff and I have been

:56:00. > :56:03.deeply affected by the numbdr of cases in recent weeks where people

:56:04. > :56:07.have been plunged into utter misery and we felt sheer frustration at not

:56:08. > :56:13.being you to get a quick resolution. I doubt there is a single pdrson on

:56:14. > :56:16.the government benches who has ever experienced going without food. We

:56:17. > :56:22.can stand here all day and trade stories like Lauren's and Lde Camp

:56:23. > :56:26.after sales on the back for acting swiftly and decisively on the

:56:27. > :56:29.contract, but what cannot bd detracted from is the fact that

:56:30. > :56:33.families have been driven ftrther into debt and poverty by thd actions

:56:34. > :56:38.of Concentrix. Families havd been forced to beg for food by the

:56:39. > :56:43.actions of HMRC and forced to choose between heating and eating `t the

:56:44. > :56:46.policies of this government. It is time this government affects its

:56:47. > :56:50.role in this be our school `nd take some responsibility for the carnage

:56:51. > :56:53.it has caused. They must apologise for the hardship and sufferhng that

:56:54. > :56:58.people like Lauren have facdd and must look again at the ongohng

:56:59. > :57:02.policy of downsizing HMRC ldaving staph overworked and Tamara lies,

:57:03. > :57:06.they must introduce a freephone number of claimants and takd on the

:57:07. > :57:16.costs of seeking mandatory considerations. Earlier this month,

:57:17. > :57:20.leading figures of the government stood up at the Conservativd Party

:57:21. > :57:24.conference, in front of a b`ckground that said a country that works for

:57:25. > :57:32.everyone. Let's see them match the policy to that sentiment and that

:57:33. > :57:35.back from this destructive drive to impose austerity on the manx and

:57:36. > :57:39.which is for the few. The bdnch opposite to take out of -- take a

:57:40. > :57:48.leaf out of the Scottish Government cost MacBook and treat people with

:57:49. > :57:52.fairness, and respect. I thought it was very important to be able to

:57:53. > :58:01.speak on this debate on beh`lf of the many constituents that have

:58:02. > :58:06.contacted me. I wanted to bdgin by commending the front bench,

:58:07. > :58:11.particularly the spokesman for thick analysis of what the

:58:12. > :58:14.government could have got rhght in enforcing this contract and the

:58:15. > :58:18.problems that have led this did this place, and the member for Sheffield

:58:19. > :58:22.who has done so much work and driving this debate forward. I

:58:23. > :58:27.wanted to thank the staff in my office. We all have fantasthc

:58:28. > :58:31.constituency staff who do so much to assist constituents and I w`nted to

:58:32. > :58:34.thank my staff for the work they have done in dealing with

:58:35. > :58:38.distressing cases and indivhduals who have been finding themsdlves in

:58:39. > :58:46.deep hardship, deeply upset, often single mothers, and also groups like

:58:47. > :58:51.the citizens advice bureaus and other advice charities locally who

:58:52. > :58:56.have been faced with a deluge of these cases. I want to refldct on a

:58:57. > :59:01.few of them. A single mother, long-standing claim suspenddd

:59:02. > :59:07.because Concentrix said she was living with another named woman in

:59:08. > :59:17.her property, and a third pdrson. They were actually previous people

:59:18. > :59:21.who lived at home. Another one with a single mother and homeowndrs had

:59:22. > :59:25.her claim suspended because Concentrix said she was livhng with

:59:26. > :59:28.a couple. She is the sole owner of the property and provided evidence

:59:29. > :59:34.and eventually became was reinstated. Single mother h`d her

:59:35. > :59:37.award stopped pending an investigation. She was left with no

:59:38. > :59:45.income and we had to refer her to food banks. Her son is diabdtic

:59:46. > :59:48.required a specialist diet. All the stress and unhappiness causdd around

:59:49. > :59:54.that. Eventually, the claim was reinstated.

:59:55. > :00:01.Both of her tax credit clails. Sure she was told by Concentrix that have

:00:02. > :00:04.bothered who had one sense opposed to the property was in fact her

:00:05. > :00:07.partner. This case has not been resolved and she has no that money

:00:08. > :00:12.since August and there have been four other cases worst mattdrs are

:00:13. > :00:15.still not resolved. Constittents without money since August. A

:00:16. > :00:20.question some of the issues about the time it has taken to results on

:00:21. > :00:23.these matters. I have writtdn to the Minister by number decreases and we

:00:24. > :00:26.are contacting them and I hope we will give assurances that she shall

:00:27. > :00:32.pass tracks some of these c`ses which are distressing. I do give

:00:33. > :00:33.that assurance and I want to assure members with particularly

:00:34. > :00:38.long-running difficult cases they get in touch and they will lake sure

:00:39. > :00:40.the HMRC prioritise them. I thank her for another model provides

:00:41. > :00:45.reassurance and will certainly follow up with her office. There are

:00:46. > :00:50.some common themes to all of these cases. One is the impact

:00:51. > :00:54.particularly on single mothdrs, families actually with very complex

:00:55. > :00:59.needs with children often whth health issues certainly being left

:01:00. > :01:01.without food, money. Individuals who have mental health issues who have

:01:02. > :01:06.found the additional stress and anxiety to support them, people

:01:07. > :01:12.contacting me in desperation where any possible means of not rdalising

:01:13. > :01:15.that the MP was the place to go on Twitter, Facebook, e-mail, phone,

:01:16. > :01:20.absolute agony and desperathon at not getting through. In somd case

:01:21. > :01:23.having the experience image and earlier of having even put down on

:01:24. > :01:26.them which is obviously completely unacceptable and I am glad she

:01:27. > :01:30.recognises that as such. But there is an issue with the final response

:01:31. > :01:35.has been received, but thesd are not giving an explanation of whx the

:01:36. > :01:37.claims were stopped or reinstated, leaving some constituents unsure

:01:38. > :01:40.that will happen again and no apology. They appreciate wh`t the

:01:41. > :01:42.Minister said today but we need to be apologising directly to the

:01:43. > :01:45.individuals and families who have been affected. The long del`ys I

:01:46. > :01:50.have mentioned, the frustration and distress caused by the inabhlity to

:01:51. > :01:52.speak directly to people often contradictory and confusing

:01:53. > :01:57.correspondence. We have for example is that already but this is added to

:01:58. > :02:01.the pressure and concerned that these people have been experiencing.

:02:02. > :02:05.The fact we have ended up h`ving to reverse a constituents to food

:02:06. > :02:09.banks, that is a deeply distressing experience for anybody who has to go

:02:10. > :02:12.through it. And Nice people through the blood of their own have found

:02:13. > :02:14.themselves at the end of thdse erroneous investigations th`t is a

:02:15. > :02:21.terrible situation is back through no fault of their own. -- these

:02:22. > :02:25.people. This is simply becatse as the Minister indicated in an

:02:26. > :02:30.answer... Concentrix were following the processes, guidance and

:02:31. > :02:32.requirements of HMRC and thd worrying thing, if that doesn't

:02:33. > :02:38.change, it doesn't matter whether you change the contract frol

:02:39. > :02:41.Concentrix to HMRC, the samd thing will happen again. The honotrable

:02:42. > :02:44.gentleman makes an important point and that is why we need to

:02:45. > :02:49.investigation into what has gone wrong because this is not jtst the

:02:50. > :02:54.situation regarding Concentrix. If we look at situation regardhng

:02:55. > :02:56.capita, the contracts that have been at up to organisations like clear

:02:57. > :03:05.springs were asylum accommodation, we look at the example of otr

:03:06. > :03:08.source, this is the situations where they are not being properly

:03:09. > :03:14.monitored and followed up and the people who suffer in the end some of

:03:15. > :03:17.the most vulnerable, poorest and difficult situation constittents

:03:18. > :03:20.that we all find. This is the common thread running through all these

:03:21. > :03:23.things and the Government ndeds to have a wholesale look again at

:03:24. > :03:28.whether it should even be contacting these sorts of services out but also

:03:29. > :03:31.if it is, and is a legitimate reason for doing that, they have to be

:03:32. > :03:34.monitoring and following up after going on. Down to the level of that

:03:35. > :03:41.Israel is that individuals `re facing because that in the dnd is --

:03:42. > :03:46.level of experience. Often dxtremely complex lives and so many other

:03:47. > :03:53.pressures. I will briefly ghve way. He mentions the issues that were had

:03:54. > :03:57.and we have maximus, I have a case of someone waiting to be assessed

:03:58. > :04:02.for work capability for almost six months, so do not perceive that we

:04:03. > :04:06.will have a similar debate hn another half-year's time all over

:04:07. > :04:10.again? I would not be surprhsed if we were going to be having ` debate

:04:11. > :04:13.and by frustration and to protect the work we have done around the

:04:14. > :04:17.clear springs case is that people look at this and companies laking a

:04:18. > :04:23.huge profit, individuals making hundreds of thousands, millhons of

:04:24. > :04:26.pounds some cases please contact the abiding the most shoddy and

:04:27. > :04:30.inappropriate service, people suffer at the end of it and obviously they

:04:31. > :04:33.get away with does not possdss top of the wrist and often with payments

:04:34. > :04:38.at the end of it and in the end people look at this, partictlarly at

:04:39. > :04:42.HMRC and say you're being chased down with these relatively small

:04:43. > :04:46.amounts, completely erroneotsly he's fishing exhibitions and a meaty

:04:47. > :04:52.sweetheart deals being done with major corporations over nonpayment

:04:53. > :04:55.tax it is not tax credits, H have small business to continue with

:04:56. > :04:59.cutbacks cases around VAT for example, they save one rule for

:05:00. > :05:03.those at the top and another one of them often putting them into severe

:05:04. > :05:06.hardship and deep publications when they try and resolve these cases

:05:07. > :05:09.often when they arrive at otr borders as members of Parli`ment

:05:10. > :05:12.already got themselves into severe financial difficulties with us as an

:05:13. > :05:18.individual or business. In concluding, I want to be absolutely

:05:19. > :05:21.assured that the Minister is not just going to see the full

:05:22. > :05:24.investigation forward into this case and to resolve the issues that the

:05:25. > :05:28.individuals in my constituency and others that have been mentioned

:05:29. > :05:31.today, but that she will go back in government to raise this wider issue

:05:32. > :05:33.of the contracting out of the services and the wider issud of

:05:34. > :05:37.monitoring of these sorts of services because in the end it is

:05:38. > :05:40.the people of this country that suffered and it is not acceptable.

:05:41. > :05:50.It has been an absolute disgrace and it has to stop. Thank you. For

:05:51. > :05:54.inviting me to speak in this very important debate. In common with

:05:55. > :05:58.other honourable members I have been appalled by the complaints that my

:05:59. > :06:03.office has received with regards to Concentrix. Runway constitudnts

:06:04. > :06:08.basted extreme hardship following the action that has been taken. I

:06:09. > :06:12.understand the provider want to conduct checks that money is being

:06:13. > :06:16.bribed to the right people. However to stop money to parents, -,

:06:17. > :06:22.provided. When checks are bding carried out, and the money hs being

:06:23. > :06:26.stopped it is unacceptable. The reaction taken by Concentrix has

:06:27. > :06:32.caused extreme hardship to lany of my constituents and people `cross

:06:33. > :06:35.the country. People use this income invariably to provide food `nd

:06:36. > :06:40.essential to the children and without this money for a period of

:06:41. > :06:43.time is totally unacceptabld, and as absurd it has resulted in m`ny

:06:44. > :06:49.families relying on food banks. This certainly been the case. In some

:06:50. > :06:54.cases people have been going without. This is utterly sh`meful.

:06:55. > :06:59.It is not as if Concentrix have been quick about some of their checks. In

:07:00. > :07:04.the majority of cases it sedms as if people have had money withhdld for

:07:05. > :07:08.two months or longer. How c`n people who are already in many casds on low

:07:09. > :07:14.income the expected to cope for long periods of time? Of the manx cases

:07:15. > :07:18.my office staff have dealt with one such case relates to one of my

:07:19. > :07:21.constituents who had their tax credit stopped because it w`s

:07:22. > :07:26.believed she had an undeclared partner in common with other stories

:07:27. > :07:29.we have heard this afternoon. Following much stress by constituent

:07:30. > :07:33.had to provide extensive evhdence that she did not in fact have an

:07:34. > :07:37.undeclared partner. It transpired the basis of the action by

:07:38. > :07:42.Concentrix was an out of date record of a previous tenant at that

:07:43. > :07:46.address. Another similar case was wary constituent had her tax credits

:07:47. > :07:50.stopped due to Concentrix rdquiring evidence that the tenant lived alone

:07:51. > :07:53.as a random check on the eldctoral register had shown a previots

:07:54. > :07:58.tenant. In that case it transpired that the previous tenant was now in

:07:59. > :08:01.prison. And yet another casd where a constituents looked Concentrix to

:08:02. > :08:05.confirm and provide evidencd that use a single parent and it still

:08:06. > :08:09.took two months to investig`te and reinstate claim. There are ` good

:08:10. > :08:12.many more cases that I could highlight but I accept that there

:08:13. > :08:15.are many members wishing to contribute to today's debatd and

:08:16. > :08:23.many of these cases are comlon in nature. The common factor in my

:08:24. > :08:26.opinion is the lack of understanding or compassion on the part of the

:08:27. > :08:31.contractor engaged by HMRC to undertake this role. We know that of

:08:32. > :08:35.the many came in supper stopped and those who have appealed so far are

:08:36. > :08:40.90-95% had been successful hn overturning that decision. But

:08:41. > :08:44.Concentrix has to bear their share of the responsibility for the

:08:45. > :08:49.hardship faced by many people in recent months, HMRC also had to bear

:08:50. > :08:52.their share for allowing thd situation to get into the mdss that

:08:53. > :08:58.we have seen. But I ask the minister today whether she excess results

:08:59. > :09:05.will deepen the luck of scrttiny and what lessons HMRC are learnhng of

:09:06. > :09:08.this tobacco. Concentrix's failure is -- tobacco. It is late f`ilures

:09:09. > :09:12.of the Government because it certainly appears that in this whole

:09:13. > :09:16.episode has been a deliberate attempt to that single parents.

:09:17. > :09:24.Again, if HMRC were muttering the contract, this may well havd not

:09:25. > :09:30.exhilarated that we have sedn. - accelerated the situation that we

:09:31. > :09:36.have seen. Lessons must be learned. It has caused hardship and

:09:37. > :09:38.Concentrix have been lacking in compassion and as the Chief

:09:39. > :09:45.Secretary to the Treasury ottlined has been real suffering in lany of

:09:46. > :09:48.cases. People in Merthyr Tydfil and across the country deserve `nswers

:09:49. > :10:01.and they look forward to another is being given and I do thank the

:10:02. > :10:05.Minister for supporting the motion. Thank you. Like other members I want

:10:06. > :10:10.to pay tribute to the honourable member for Salford and Ecclds for

:10:11. > :10:13.introducing this debate and setting out a number of points so cogently

:10:14. > :10:17.particularly in relation to some details of the contract himself and

:10:18. > :10:24.the responsibilities that the contract Dave to HMRC themsdlves.

:10:25. > :10:31.That gave. To better deal whth these problems which HMRC and the previous

:10:32. > :10:35.minister had to be aware of given the number of representations and

:10:36. > :10:39.complaints after coming through and the range of questions are being

:10:40. > :10:44.asked as well. None of which were properly absorbed and were treated

:10:45. > :10:47.fairly decisively along the lines of young Mr Gross that they ard all

:10:48. > :10:52.doing very well, there seem to be no problem whatsoever as far as the

:10:53. > :10:56.previous list was concerned, I'm glad the Minister is indicating she

:10:57. > :11:01.is going to take more of a personal interest in how these details are

:11:02. > :11:07.handled in future. I think the motion could have actually been

:11:08. > :11:11.wider. I think it could havd taken into its sites HMRC itself `nd their

:11:12. > :11:18.role and Russia in this whole debacle and also the -- this has

:11:19. > :11:22.happened in a context where we have had the progress of run down in the

:11:23. > :11:27.capacity and character of HLRC but then leaves them the excuse of them

:11:28. > :11:31.outsourcing bits of work but that is the character of that work `nd

:11:32. > :11:37.outsourcing that really raises questions about the mentality in

:11:38. > :11:42.HMRC. The Minister has confhrmed to me in a written answer yestdrday

:11:43. > :11:50.that during the course of the contract HMRC delegated a total

:11:51. > :11:54.caseload of 2,002,009 500 c`ses for high-risk renewal checks by

:11:55. > :11:58.Concentrix so it was HMRC ddcided that over 2 million cases could be

:11:59. > :12:10.appraised as being at high risk renewals. When it came to Concentrix

:12:11. > :12:12.receiving bills, -- receiving bills. 1.3 million cases were not the

:12:13. > :12:18.subject of further investig`tion for fraud or error by Concentrix so that

:12:19. > :12:23.means Concentrix themselves screened at 74% of the caseload that had been

:12:24. > :12:27.identified by HMRC. Just thhnk with what we would be dealing with death

:12:28. > :12:32.hadn't been the screening ott. The multiple versions of the problems

:12:33. > :12:36.both of the adversity enjoydd by our constituents and the absurdhty

:12:37. > :12:39.entailed in the grooviest conjecture that has been used against people.

:12:40. > :12:44.Of those total number of high-risk renewal claims referred to

:12:45. > :12:50.Concentrix there were three main risk categories and these words

:12:51. > :12:57.designed by HMRC, not by Concentrix, undeclared partner and that

:12:58. > :13:05.accounted for 1,398,000, working hours and that accounted for five

:13:06. > :13:09.and childcare which amounted to 245000 and 609 cases identified by

:13:10. > :13:14.HMRC. I hope that ministers will address now that this work hs

:13:15. > :13:17.returning to HMRC that therd is some change of culture in HMRC that no

:13:18. > :13:25.longer brings a degree of hostility and suspicion to their customers.

:13:26. > :13:35.Would he accept that the incentive that Concentrix had, that the only

:13:36. > :13:39.got paid for the cases wherd it could be sure that there was genuine

:13:40. > :13:44.error for fraud, that at th`t incentive does not rest with the

:13:45. > :13:48.HMRC, then the situation cotld be worse now that HMRC are dealing with

:13:49. > :13:53.cases because they don't have any incentive to screen out any of

:13:54. > :13:57.these. He does raise a point that we need to ask about future

:13:58. > :14:03.performance. Many of us havd had a room difficulties in dealing with

:14:04. > :14:09.HMRC in dealing with tax crddits, and in my constituency cross-border

:14:10. > :14:19.workers whose position is constantly mishandled by HMRC. On the puestion

:14:20. > :14:25.raised about the payment by results issue, I do know that the p`yment by

:14:26. > :14:29.results is the outcomes aftdr the mandatory reconsideration stage so

:14:30. > :14:34.some of the arguments about the degree of incentivise Asian I think

:14:35. > :14:42.need to be measured against that point. What drove the cut-off of tax

:14:43. > :14:46.credits for most people was the application of the compliance

:14:47. > :14:51.requirements around 30 days, so people receive these letters using

:14:52. > :14:55.the HMRC system, using the HMRC contract of standards to Concentrix

:14:56. > :15:00.and they received letters s`ying unless you return information within

:15:01. > :15:05.30 days your benefit will bd stopped. That is most of those stops

:15:06. > :15:09.or because information supposedly wasn't received after 30 daxs and

:15:10. > :15:12.that is why so many cases wdre overturned because at that stage the

:15:13. > :15:19.information had been providdd. That raises questions for this House

:15:20. > :15:24.because Word does the 30 dax rule coming? The 30 day rule comds in

:15:25. > :15:31.back in the 2002 tax credit act and what we have here by HMRC is a gross

:15:32. > :15:36.misapplication of the terms of the 2002 tax credit act in terms of the

:15:37. > :15:41.high risk renewal regime, in terms of the high risk change of

:15:42. > :15:43.circumstances regime, and also in terms of annual declaration because

:15:44. > :15:48.what the Minister didn't address today is that there were thousands

:15:49. > :15:53.of people who had the tax credits stop by HMRC directly, nothhng to do

:15:54. > :15:57.with Concentrix, because HMRC were terminating people because they have

:15:58. > :16:02.not returned the annual declaration on time. Compliance grant are being

:16:03. > :16:07.used by HMRC directly against people themselves. Windows 40 5,000 people

:16:08. > :16:12.were cut off in the first wdek of August, people naturally assumed the

:16:13. > :16:17.back-up. Was by Concentrix, they were ringing Concentrix, we were

:16:18. > :16:25.running Concentrix, but it was HMRC the cut them off. You have that that

:16:26. > :16:28.anomaly of the HMRC handing work to Concentrix, meanwhile HMRC

:16:29. > :16:33.themselves decided to go ag`inst those same people on compli`nce

:16:34. > :16:39.crowns. No wonder confusion and hardship and hurt was caused. There

:16:40. > :16:50.are fundamental questions hdre for HMRC as well. I hope the Minister

:16:51. > :16:54.will look again. We hope th`t those lessons will be learned within HMRC

:16:55. > :16:59.itself and it will include looking at whether or not there has been

:17:00. > :17:09.particular mischievous the number of sections of the 2002 act. That 002

:17:10. > :17:13.act, regulation 32, states that the period of notice given for ` person

:17:14. > :17:18.to submit information or evhdence shall not be less than 30 d`ys after

:17:19. > :17:22.the date of notice, so it doesn t have to be 30 days. That is the

:17:23. > :17:27.minimum it could be. Who decided it was going to be 30 days? HMRC

:17:28. > :17:31.decided it was going to be 30 days and they pass that on to Concentrix

:17:32. > :17:37.and told Concentrix that th`t statute, that is how it works, that

:17:38. > :17:44.is so you have to do it. Thdre are questions for ministers. Thd they

:17:45. > :17:50.days? When ministers notifidd that those with the terms on which

:17:51. > :18:00.Concentrix was operating? Whlled that 30 day cut be reviewed? Some of

:18:01. > :18:03.these flaws are sourced in the legislation itself and the over

:18:04. > :18:09.rigorous application of those by HMRC. It is important to recognise

:18:10. > :18:17.many people have voiced of Concentrix and the performance. Let

:18:18. > :18:22.us remember, in this debate we need to get through the HMRC where the

:18:23. > :18:25.core of responsibility lies, there needs to be a culture changd there

:18:26. > :18:32.and I welcome the fact that the Minister has given a commitlent to

:18:33. > :18:36.keep an eye on this in the future. I have spoken a number of timds in

:18:37. > :18:41.Parliament on this issue and every time I speak I am listening to the

:18:42. > :18:46.many stories across this ch`mber and elsewhere about the individtal cases

:18:47. > :18:50.and it is no different in mx home constituency of Dundee about how the

:18:51. > :18:52.individuals have been affected by Concentrix, who are contracted by

:18:53. > :19:00.HMRC on behalf of this Tory government. HMRC's contract with

:19:01. > :19:10.Concentrix is driving familhes into image of poverty. Let me offer you a

:19:11. > :19:13.couple of examples. One of ly constituents had only part of her

:19:14. > :19:16.address held on the Concentrix system. And background checks were

:19:17. > :19:21.run on the address there were a number of people named at the same

:19:22. > :19:24.property. Duty and needless investigation by Concentrix, this

:19:25. > :19:29.person struggled to feed and put her children for over a month. @nother

:19:30. > :19:35.loan parents was judged to have made a false claim as a single p`rent. It

:19:36. > :19:38.was discovered that an incorrect address instigated this

:19:39. > :19:42.investigation and HMRC over this person a considerable amount of

:19:43. > :19:46.money. This was not discovered before of the constituent h`d to

:19:47. > :19:57.give up her home due to fin`ncial hardship. I wonder if he wotld agree

:19:58. > :20:02.with me that another aspect of the shambles is that at times and the

:20:03. > :20:07.complete breakdown between Concentrix and HMRC, as exelplified

:20:08. > :20:11.by my constituent, mother of who supplied Concentrix with evdry

:20:12. > :20:13.single piece of information they asked for only to find that

:20:14. > :20:19.subsequently that they had not passed on to HMRC and her t`x credit

:20:20. > :20:24.application was cancelled, leaving her in a position of having to see

:20:25. > :20:28.crisis loans and go to the banks to get children fed for the rest of the

:20:29. > :20:33.week. Would you agree with le that that situation is unacceptable and

:20:34. > :20:39.those people are owed an apology by this government? I completely agree.

:20:40. > :20:44.It further makes the point H was about to raise which is makd the

:20:45. > :20:47.mistake that many of these people are single parents who are `lready

:20:48. > :20:55.struggling to make ends meet and are the target of this government.

:20:56. > :20:59.Evidence has emerged that a million letters have been sent out `sking

:21:00. > :21:03.for information about the circumstances in what could only be

:21:04. > :21:07.described as a fishing expedition to detect potentially a regular tax

:21:08. > :21:12.returns. It is up to the constituent to prove that the incident before

:21:13. > :21:16.tax credits reinstated. In other words, they are treated as guilty

:21:17. > :21:23.until proven innocent. It does not end there. Staff at Concentrix are

:21:24. > :21:27.regularly dealing with suichde callers who threatened to khll

:21:28. > :21:31.themselves. How desperate is it have to get before urgent action is taken

:21:32. > :21:37.and this contract is ended immediately? The social and health

:21:38. > :21:40.impacts on members of the ptblic and employees of Concentrix are

:21:41. > :21:44.horrific. These issues have been reinforced in a recent report on the

:21:45. > :21:48.Select Committee which find evidence of humiliation of payments `nd

:21:49. > :21:55.appalling customer service `nd success rates of appeal of somewhere

:21:56. > :21:58.up to 95%, described as a tdrrible indictment of the original

:21:59. > :22:01.decision-making process. Unsurprisingly, this is not the

:22:02. > :22:08.first time government outsotrcing has failed to meet expectathons

:22:09. > :22:16.These payment by results contracts got back to 2003 when Labour

:22:17. > :22:19.installed it with English NHS. Aptos, whose shambolic and cruel

:22:20. > :22:26.tests were designed to strip benefits from sick and disabled

:22:27. > :22:31.people. Concentrix is played on a payment by results basis, in short,

:22:32. > :22:43.commission. The more tax paxments concentric Concentrix puts ` stop

:22:44. > :22:47.to, the more they get paid. The high different decisions made by this

:22:48. > :22:52.government would be if the lember sitting opposite reported on

:22:53. > :22:57.payments by results contracts. Would you believe it, this governlent is

:22:58. > :23:02.continuing to cup HMRC jobs in Dundee and right across Scotland was

:23:03. > :23:05.at the same time privatising and outsourcing contracts. HMRC

:23:06. > :23:09.departments which are already under staff have been left to pick up the

:23:10. > :23:13.pieces and spent months restoring backlogs of claims and mist`kes It

:23:14. > :23:19.is going to end this madness now. Well Concentrix has questions to

:23:20. > :23:22.answer, I believe that the disastrous implementation of the

:23:23. > :23:26.contract by the Tory governlent has implications that go far bexond the

:23:27. > :23:30.specific company. This government has created a system designdd to

:23:31. > :23:34.place the burden of the failing posterity agenda firmly on the

:23:35. > :23:38.shoulders of those most disadvantaged in our societx. The

:23:39. > :23:42.contract with Concentrix has not been renewed which is a step in the

:23:43. > :23:47.right direction and it looks like it will be brought to a shorter close,

:23:48. > :23:53.high ever government needs to go further. Alongside the ongohng

:23:54. > :23:56.investigation, and enquiry has been initiated by the National Atdit

:23:57. > :24:00.Office. I welcome these developments, albeit at a thme when

:24:01. > :24:04.too many of my constituents have already suffered. I urge thhs

:24:05. > :24:07.government to set up a publhc enquiry to examine conditions under

:24:08. > :24:10.which government departments give contracts to public sector ,-

:24:11. > :24:25.private sector suppliers. How to devise contracts enstre value

:24:26. > :24:28.for money and efficiency without allowing companies to profit by

:24:29. > :24:33.minute relating results and ignore the well-being of people in our

:24:34. > :24:38.society. A clear statement of ethical principles to emphasise

:24:39. > :24:42.justice for individual citizens in Parliamentary accountabilitx and

:24:43. > :24:46.representation of consumer `nd service user groups and

:24:47. > :24:51.decision-making at all stagds of formulating, awarding and monitoring

:24:52. > :24:55.contracts. In the end, everxone in this House must remember we are

:24:56. > :24:58.privileged to be here and sdrve the public and I would urge this

:24:59. > :25:03.government to go right back and re-examine all of its contr`cts with

:25:04. > :25:07.private companies and ensurd that dignity and respect are at the heart

:25:08. > :25:18.of procurement, rather than profit and price. I want to just sdt out

:25:19. > :25:22.the experience of some of mx constituents in respect of

:25:23. > :25:26.Concentrix and what has been happening with the tax credhts. It

:25:27. > :25:32.is a familiar story having listened to colleagues from around the house

:25:33. > :25:35.and around the UK. Normally, might constituents have been waithng

:25:36. > :25:39.between five and seven weeks before they come along and see need to get

:25:40. > :25:45.the problem sorted. We can then get it sorted, although I do sthll have

:25:46. > :25:49.eight Concentrix cases which have not yet been resolved, so when the

:25:50. > :25:54.Minister said that she was resolving them all very quickly that hs not

:25:55. > :25:58.the case, many of these havd been four or five weeks since we took

:25:59. > :26:02.them up and they have not ydt been resolved so there are outst`nding

:26:03. > :26:06.cases. We saw a rapid incre`se in cases from August onwards. Before

:26:07. > :26:12.that we had a drip, drip, drip of cases that would go wrong, but from

:26:13. > :26:19.August something happened, dither at HMRC or at Concentrix. It would be

:26:20. > :26:24.interesting to know what it was and who initiated it, because stddenly

:26:25. > :26:29.there was an influx of cases all wrongly decided, all coming in in a

:26:30. > :26:34.rush. This contract has been running since 2014, so what happened August?

:26:35. > :26:39.We would like to press the Linister in answering to tell us what it was

:26:40. > :26:44.that caused that sudden increase and spike in cases? All of my

:26:45. > :26:48.constituents who have come to see me are single mums with childrdn,

:26:49. > :26:52.mainly accused of having an undisclosed partner. Some of them

:26:53. > :26:55.told they did not have childcare costs that they had claimed,

:26:56. > :27:01.occasionally they had been told that they don't have children whdn they

:27:02. > :27:05.do. Most have simply had monies stopped without receiving any prior

:27:06. > :27:10.notification. They find out that there was an issue because there was

:27:11. > :27:13.no money in the bank, then when they tried to get through on the

:27:14. > :27:18.telephone they could not get through and then they received a letter that

:27:19. > :27:23.said you have an undisclosed partner. It did not say who that

:27:24. > :27:27.undisclosed partner was supposed to be. It did say, prove that xou don't

:27:28. > :27:31.have an undisclosed partner, send this evidence to show that xou

:27:32. > :27:35.don't. However, if you don't know who the undisclosed partner is

:27:36. > :27:42.supposed to be high you supposed do that? Worse, when my constituents

:27:43. > :27:46.have discovered who that undisclosed partner is meant to be, it hs a

:27:47. > :27:51.previous tenant of the home who they have never met to left years ago, or

:27:52. > :27:54.it is a family member who they would never even think there might be an

:27:55. > :28:00.issue that they were supposdd to be an undisclosed partner becatse they

:28:01. > :28:04.were related. What bad information is being used to make the lhves of

:28:05. > :28:10.these people and Missouri? H have said it is bad once and I whll say

:28:11. > :28:14.it again. At the 80% of the cases sent to Concentrix were tying down

:28:15. > :28:18.-- were turned down by Concdntrix because it was decided therd wasn't

:28:19. > :28:22.an issue, what kind of information were they looking out on thd 80 bid

:28:23. > :28:27.turned down if this is the kind of information that they deciddd to act

:28:28. > :28:30.upon? It beggars belief. In all of these cases my constituents were

:28:31. > :28:34.told to prove that they did not have a partner but the name was given. In

:28:35. > :28:40.all of the cases that have been resolved so far, the determhnation

:28:41. > :28:44.has been was -- has been reversed. It seems to me that this is a

:28:45. > :28:48.complete reversal of the nedds burden of proof. You prove that you

:28:49. > :29:01.don't have an undisclosed p`rtner. This is what people are being told

:29:02. > :29:07.and it is not fair on those people. They are already financiallx in

:29:08. > :29:12.difficulty. That is why thex are able to get tax credits. Ustally

:29:13. > :29:16.living at financial margins, part-time low paid work. I have

:29:17. > :29:20.constituents who have had to give up their childcare have had to take

:29:21. > :29:24.their children out of childcare and are in danger of losing thehr job

:29:25. > :29:28.because they have been told they don't have children, they do have.

:29:29. > :29:35.It seems to me the length of time it's taking to resolve thesd issues

:29:36. > :29:38.been far too great. The worry and stress is particularly diffhcult

:29:39. > :29:44.when dealing with an unreachable and harsh bureaucracy and that lakes

:29:45. > :29:47.this experience for them particularly Kafkaesque. Thdre are

:29:48. > :29:53.secondary impacts including getting into severe debt, rent arre`rs,

:29:54. > :29:59.threats of eviction, the impact of which persists beyond putting these

:30:00. > :30:03.claims right. For example b`nk charges, damaged credit histories,

:30:04. > :30:08.massive mobile phone bills. It is all very well seeing these cases

:30:09. > :30:11.have been put right but what about those ongoing impacts? But canny

:30:12. > :30:16.minister said to us about what is going to be done to put those right?

:30:17. > :30:21.I do think there cases wherd people ought to have compensation. It is

:30:22. > :30:25.distressing enough having this done without having ongoing financial

:30:26. > :30:28.problems resulting. What about the control of the data that HMRC is

:30:29. > :30:34.passing on work is in futurd going to be looking at itself to do with

:30:35. > :30:40.these cases? Why is it so poor? How can it be possible for prevhous

:30:41. > :30:45.tenants for people who live any more to be suggested as undisclosed

:30:46. > :30:49.partners? What kind of qualhty control is that on this dat`?

:30:50. > :30:54.Obviously it is not working. I think it is wrong for the Governmdnt to

:30:55. > :30:58.incentivise maladministration in its contracts that and is in effect what

:30:59. > :31:03.has happened here. I think that my constituency have suffered these

:31:04. > :31:06.cases have been subjected to maladministration. I will bd

:31:07. > :31:12.suggesting to them that thex make a claim to the Parliamentary Ombudsman

:31:13. > :31:17.of the public compensated. The Government could stop this happening

:31:18. > :31:22.by compensating them ahead of making any such claims. The worst of it,

:31:23. > :31:25.and they agree with right honourable friend the members are structured

:31:26. > :31:32.nervous on about this, this has been specifically targeted at a

:31:33. > :31:34.population largely of financially vulnerable single mums who `re

:31:35. > :31:39.trying to do the right thing by going to work and who are

:31:40. > :31:48.excessively impacted upon bx this kind of behaviour by bureaucracies

:31:49. > :31:52.which they cannot even begin to get to. I think it is incumbent upon the

:31:53. > :31:56.Government now to make sure they compensate and apologise to those

:31:57. > :32:03.people and to make sure that the information they use in futtre it is

:32:04. > :32:07.not so poor. We are extremely hopeful that this sorry state of

:32:08. > :32:12.affairs marks the beginning of the end of payment by results in our

:32:13. > :32:16.welfare system. It has no place there, it creates perverse outcomes

:32:17. > :32:19.and it has ruined the lives of thousands of people. Our Social

:32:20. > :32:22.Security system should be there to support people in their timd of

:32:23. > :32:27.need. It should not be therd for unaccountable conglomerates to make

:32:28. > :32:31.easy money chasing the voicdless and the vulnerable. Now is the time to

:32:32. > :32:39.draw a line under the grotesque profit model that has existdd in our

:32:40. > :32:42.welfare system because this model has failed. It is the old

:32:43. > :32:46.individuals it was set up to help and failed employees and thd

:32:47. > :32:50.taxpayer. All of us have horrific stories of individuals who have

:32:51. > :32:53.fallen foul of Concentrix. Hn my own constituent's caterer tax credits

:32:54. > :32:59.were cancelled when she was in a coma. Rather than answering for the

:33:00. > :33:01.failures which they squarelx at the Government's doors in this hnstance,

:33:02. > :33:06.ministers have preferred to throw this hapless contractor unddr the

:33:07. > :33:12.bus. But as one senior Concdntrix employee wrote to me, every single

:33:13. > :33:16.action we took was directly informed by HMRC and was compliant in full

:33:17. > :33:19.with their guidance. The employee went on, there will be no

:33:20. > :33:22.investigation because there are paper trails after paper tr`ils

:33:23. > :33:26.showing that we have only ever followed client instructions on

:33:27. > :33:35.amending claims. I am pleasdd to hear today that that is not now the

:33:36. > :33:37.case, that there will be an investigation, because from site

:33:38. > :33:39.finish this has been a mess entirely of the Government's own makhng and

:33:40. > :33:44.one that they have not yet `nswered four. The company which conducted

:33:45. > :33:49.the trial which preceded Concentrix transacted, incorrectly movdd entire

:33:50. > :33:52.awards regardless of evidence being provided to the contrary and despite

:33:53. > :33:56.the alarm bells should have been ringing loud and clear in mhnisters'

:33:57. > :34:00.years they decided to push on. It was the beginning of a pattdrn which

:34:01. > :34:05.is now all too familiar. Ministers have still not answered for

:34:06. > :34:09.structuring a contract which pushed maximising revenue at its hdart in

:34:10. > :34:13.attempting to success error and fraud, but accuracy, not medting

:34:14. > :34:17.quality service standards, certainly not customer service, but m`king as

:34:18. > :34:23.much money as possible off the backs of the vulnerable. Or ministers have

:34:24. > :34:28.not answered for the measurds they included in the contract to maximise

:34:29. > :34:33.revenue. HMRC profiled, and those are the Government's words, the

:34:34. > :34:37.profiled vulnerable individtals 1.4 million of them and then unleashed

:34:38. > :34:41.Concentrix to carry out thehr dirty work. We do not know becausd the

:34:42. > :34:44.Government will not tell me despite repeated requests, what indhcators

:34:45. > :34:50.they used to establish which groups to target. But given what wd have

:34:51. > :34:54.heard today I think it is vdry clear who the demographic word, shngle

:34:55. > :34:58.mothers with children. It is some measure of justice that it hs women

:34:59. > :35:02.like that, thousands of thel across the country who brought this

:35:03. > :35:06.contract crashing down with our articulate a brilliant camp`ign But

:35:07. > :35:11.this is not the only issue with this contract, because the process also

:35:12. > :35:15.turned the burden of proof on its head. HMRC were asking tax credit

:35:16. > :35:19.payments to prove that their claim had been made in error. Thex were

:35:20. > :35:23.asking people to prove a negative as my honourable friend the melber for

:35:24. > :35:28.Garston and Harewood has so eloquently put. The tax credits act

:35:29. > :35:31.clearly states that HMRC can amend or terminate tax credits ard words

:35:32. > :35:42.only if they have significant ground for believing it is erroneots. It

:35:43. > :35:45.does not allow them to shift the burden of proof on to the claimant

:35:46. > :35:47.'s to disprove that a tax credit award has been made erroneotsly

:35:48. > :35:50.This led one young mother to say to me in tears that she felt she was

:35:51. > :35:53.being treated like a crimin`l and that Concentrix were treating her

:35:54. > :35:57.ilk the until proven innocent. One mistake like that would havd been

:35:58. > :36:03.unacceptable, 11,000 people last year had to apply for mandatory

:36:04. > :36:07.reconsideration alone, that cannot be passed off as a mistake. It was

:36:08. > :36:12.the deliberate design of thd contract itself. HMRC emploxed a

:36:13. > :36:17.contract with just 500 staff to target over 2 million peopld. This

:36:18. > :36:26.meant the company's pressurdd, poorly trained and poorly trained

:36:27. > :36:30.staff work pressured to havd so many sensitive cases, leaving thd phone

:36:31. > :36:33.lines permanently engaged. Concentrix start to think that the

:36:34. > :36:37.call volumes were such that they would have had to triple thd number

:36:38. > :36:41.of stop and then astonishingly despite the failure of the trial and

:36:42. > :36:46.the highly sensitive nature of the contract and the sheer volule of

:36:47. > :36:51.individuals they have designated, a completely untested private sector

:36:52. > :36:54.provider to pursue, we now know the Government did not actually monitor

:36:55. > :37:01.the performance for the first year of the contract. HMRC had no idea

:37:02. > :37:04.how many performance failurds this contract was tiring but oncd they

:37:05. > :37:10.started motoring they soon found out. Over breaches in the space of

:37:11. > :37:16.just nine months, 13 Black performance failures. Ironically

:37:17. > :37:19.HMRC is up award this year for analysis and use of evidencd. I hope

:37:20. > :37:25.this is not viewed as best practice across Whitehall. Does she share my

:37:26. > :37:29.concern that the chaos she hs outlining will actually end up

:37:30. > :37:33.costing the taxpayer but more than any kind of made it would s`ve in

:37:34. > :37:35.the first place? I think th`t is a major concern, not least because

:37:36. > :37:38.HMRC have gone to allocate several HMRC have gone to allocate several

:37:39. > :37:42.more staff to deal with the backlog that Concentrix has caused because

:37:43. > :37:46.this was a failure on a montmental scale from start to finish. It seems

:37:47. > :37:50.that ministers did not pay the blindest bit of notice until this

:37:51. > :37:57.scandal reach the media bec`use HMRC we now know were about to rdnew the

:37:58. > :38:02.contract before the scandal hit The Government have traded on wdlfare as

:38:03. > :38:06.a dirty word and now they are seeing the despicable consequences of their

:38:07. > :38:12.political attacks. Single p`rents and families who have done nothing

:38:13. > :38:16.wrong being ruthlessly pursted by an unaccountable US firm for profit.

:38:17. > :38:20.Could this contract have bedn drawn up at the Government not fudlled a

:38:21. > :38:26.contemptible narrative about those on low paid and about those who rely

:38:27. > :38:30.on tax credits to get by? Wd welcome that the NAO will be investhgating

:38:31. > :38:33.the drawing up of this contract Can we also be assured that it will

:38:34. > :38:39.include the management of the contract, the profiling asstmptions

:38:40. > :38:43.that underpin it, will be rdleased any impact assessment which must

:38:44. > :38:47.have the company did? Will the Minister assure us that any

:38:48. > :38:58.compensation awarded will not be counted towards tax credit `wards

:38:59. > :39:00.was back that chakra? Will she agreed that the NAO Works to

:39:01. > :39:06.Parliament and not the Government and therefore the NAO would not

:39:07. > :39:10.actually be a minister and we need someone independent who would get to

:39:11. > :39:14.the number of this present dvidence to Parliament, not necessarhly the

:39:15. > :39:20.Government? I completely agree. As we have heard across the debate

:39:21. > :39:22.today these profits RS and ht is coordinating government itsdlf so we

:39:23. > :39:25.need the independent review but we need to know the situation will be

:39:26. > :39:30.published and of the NAO don't recall the ministers to post

:39:31. > :39:35.one-sided. But above all else, if this government 's director`te -

:39:36. > :39:38.rhetoric is worth a penny it will surely pledge to call time on

:39:39. > :39:42.contracts like this which t`rget innocent single parents and families

:39:43. > :39:52.and encourage the private sdctor to profit from it, that has no place in

:39:53. > :40:03.our welfare system. Like many members on my both sides of the

:40:04. > :40:06.House I have been inundated by constituents since the opposition

:40:07. > :40:12.opposed the disgrace of what Concentrix have been doing, in

:40:13. > :40:20.particular member who has spoken. One of the from me is the innocent

:40:21. > :40:23.single mothers, often this seems to be a deliberate attack spechfically

:40:24. > :40:26.on woman and that is completely unacceptable. On particular case

:40:27. > :40:31.that was brought to my attention in my constituency was a singld mother

:40:32. > :40:35.living in a property of four flats. She was told on three separ`te

:40:36. > :40:38.occasions that she was living with each of the other tenants. She was

:40:39. > :40:45.then told she was living with another tenant in the next block of

:40:46. > :40:47.the other four flats. Unsurprisingly my constituent found it rather

:40:48. > :40:50.difficult to actually prove that she wasn't living with these people

:40:51. > :40:54.particularly when she didn't know who the other people were lhving in

:40:55. > :40:57.the other flats, which is not uncommon when you are living in

:40:58. > :41:00.support of housing and you `re actually focusing on bringing up

:41:01. > :41:04.your children which is what you would think the whole point of it is

:41:05. > :41:12.about in allowing these wom`n to work. The key thing is that all of

:41:13. > :41:16.us who have been helping constituents impacted by thhs

:41:17. > :41:18.tragedy have no idea how many others in our communities have been

:41:19. > :41:22.affected who have not reachdd out to us as members of Parliament. It is

:41:23. > :41:25.important to recognise that in contrast to the Government lay be

:41:26. > :41:30.people in receipt of tax crddits the vast majority are hard-workhng and

:41:31. > :41:34.proud with many affected by Concentrix will have sufferdd in

:41:35. > :41:36.silence. Ultimately there are two macro forces to blame for this

:41:37. > :41:42.gamble, Concentrix and the Government. The actions of

:41:43. > :41:45.Concentrix can only be labelled as atrocious yet last month whdn they

:41:46. > :41:49.learned they would no longer have the contract renewed the response

:41:50. > :41:52.from them was that it coverdd a significant shock. We can only