28/11/2016

:00:00. > :00:00.people dealing with these problems. There is a clear sense across the

:00:00. > :00:00.house that there is an issue here that needs addressing and the

:00:00. > :00:08.government will be looking to take action and I will discuss that with

:00:09. > :00:18.them. Urgent question, Alison McGovern. Will the Minister make a

:00:19. > :00:28.statement on the situation in Aleppo?

:00:29. > :00:35.We are appalled by the entirely preventable humanitarian catastrophe

:00:36. > :00:42.like taking place in the eastern Aleppo and across other besieged

:00:43. > :00:45.areas in Syria. The UN Secretary General has described what is

:00:46. > :00:50.happening in Aleppo as an annihilation. Over the weekend,

:00:51. > :00:54.Syrian regime forces captured several opposition held districts of

:00:55. > :00:58.Aleppo, potentially bisecting the besieged eastern part of the city.

:00:59. > :01:07.There are reports of further advances today. The regime's to a

:01:08. > :01:10.level has been back predominantly by Iranian and Shia militias. There

:01:11. > :01:14.have been unconfirmed reports of Russian air strikes and

:01:15. > :01:19.understanding is that since air strikes resumed a fortnight ago, the

:01:20. > :01:23.vast majority have been by the regime. During that time, hundreds

:01:24. > :01:28.have been killed and thousands more are forced to flee. The last

:01:29. > :01:32.functioning hospital was put out of action on the 19th of November.

:01:33. > :01:40.Humanitarian access has been deliberately blocked by the regime

:01:41. > :01:45.and its allies over four months now, leading to 275,000 civilians in

:01:46. > :01:50.Eastern Aleppo to face imminent starvation. Across the rest of Syria

:01:51. > :01:55.there have been almost no progress in delivering the UN humanitarian

:01:56. > :01:58.plan for November. The latest UN plan to deliver humanitarian aid was

:01:59. > :02:05.agreed by the armed opposition groups last week, but the regime is

:02:06. > :02:10.still blocking it. This is just the latest of many field efforts. I make

:02:11. > :02:19.it clear to Russia that using food as a weapon of war is a war crime.

:02:20. > :02:23.So too is attacking civilian infrastructure such as hospitals and

:02:24. > :02:30.schools and other favoured tool of the regime and its backers. We call

:02:31. > :02:34.upon those with influence on the regime, especially Russia and Iran,

:02:35. > :02:38.to use that influenced him the devastating assault on Eastern

:02:39. > :02:44.Aleppo and ensure that the UN's humanitarian plan can be implemented

:02:45. > :02:46.in full. As my right honourable friend the Foreign Secretary said

:02:47. > :02:52.this morning, that requires an immediate ceasefire, and access for

:02:53. > :02:57.impartial humanitarian actors to ensure the protection of vulnerable

:02:58. > :03:03.civilians fleeing the fighting. All involved in the siege and the

:03:04. > :03:07.assault on a level have responsibility to change course to

:03:08. > :03:11.protect civilians. Addressing the dire situation in Eastern Aleppo and

:03:12. > :03:16.the wider Syrian conflict is a priority for this government. I

:03:17. > :03:22.spoke to the British ambassador to the UN this morning to discuss what

:03:23. > :03:28.we can do in the security council to bring diplomatic pressure to bear on

:03:29. > :03:32.the conflict. There can be no military solution to this conflict.

:03:33. > :03:38.What is needed is for the regime and its backers to return to diplomacy

:03:39. > :03:44.and negotiations on political settlement based on transition away

:03:45. > :03:47.from President Assad. The government stands ready to engage fully in

:03:48. > :03:52.discussions and offer whatever support we can in the quest for a

:03:53. > :03:57.political settlement working in partnership with the international

:03:58. > :04:01.community, including Russia. We need to maintain international pressure

:04:02. > :04:06.to that end and that is why we are strong supporters of the recent EU

:04:07. > :04:12.efforts to extend 28 new sanctions against the regime in October and

:04:13. > :04:17.November. In the meantime, we continue to work with our key

:04:18. > :04:22.partners to look at every option to alleviate the suffering of millions

:04:23. > :04:27.of Syrians, especially those in Aleppo. For as long as the regime

:04:28. > :04:31.and its backers deny humanitarian access, whether by land or by air,

:04:32. > :04:38.such options I'm afraid are difficult to come by. But by that

:04:39. > :04:43.same token, the real solution is straightforward. The Syrian regime

:04:44. > :04:47.must simply agree to allow UN aid agencies to access those in need.

:04:48. > :04:56.All that is needed is the decision from Damascus and nothing more. Last

:04:57. > :05:00.week I am the honourable member for Tunbridge Wells and ahead of the

:05:01. > :05:05.serious civil defence force, the White helmets, the Parliament. He

:05:06. > :05:11.told us of the terrible situation in Aleppo, the lack of food, medical

:05:12. > :05:15.supplies and the constant bombing. Since then, the situation has

:05:16. > :05:19.worsened. A renewed assault by President Assad has recaptured a

:05:20. > :05:23.large part of the city, forcing thousands to flee with just the

:05:24. > :05:27.clothes on their backs. This morning and was sent a statement from the

:05:28. > :05:32.White helmets which read, dear friends in Britain, Aleppo within a

:05:33. > :05:36.state of emergency. 279,000 people have been under siege for 94 days

:05:37. > :05:42.and in the last 13 days the Syrian regime and Russia have more than

:05:43. > :05:46.2,000 air strikes and unleashed a variety of banned weapons. We are

:05:47. > :05:50.calling on you as the friends of the Syrian people to act. The Syrian

:05:51. > :05:54.regime and Russia are refusing to let aid into the cities so we are

:05:55. > :06:01.calling you to airdrop aid to provide urgent relief to starving

:06:02. > :06:07.civilians trapped. We do not believe that one of the world's was powerful

:06:08. > :06:14.countries will allow 279,000 people to be starved and bombed to death.

:06:15. > :06:17.My question is this, is the Council of despair that we heard from the

:06:18. > :06:22.Defence Secretary this morning really all we have left? There is

:06:23. > :06:28.something we can do, we can airdrop aid into the besieged areas and as a

:06:29. > :06:32.cross-party letters signed by 126 members of this House has demanded,

:06:33. > :06:37.I asked the Minister to respond to that letter to the Prime Minister

:06:38. > :06:41.here. We can renew the Bush from the UN for the creation of a

:06:42. > :06:49.humanitarian corridor to get help to civilians. The government have

:06:50. > :06:53.always said that error drops are a last resort and they understand

:06:54. > :06:57.that, but Gareth Bailey, the UK's special representative to Syria has

:06:58. > :07:02.tweeted about Aleppo today, the situation in Aleppo could not be

:07:03. > :07:08.more dire, every hospital out of service, no food, nowhere for

:07:09. > :07:13.civilians to run. Does the Minister agree that the government needs an

:07:14. > :07:17.urgent strategy to protect civilians? 100s of thousands of

:07:18. > :07:21.civilians are being starved and bombed into submission, we must

:07:22. > :07:25.consider error drops. It is time for the last resort. What Britain stands

:07:26. > :07:29.for on the world stage is being challenged. This is a test. There is

:07:30. > :07:33.no risk-free course of action left alive believe there is a right

:07:34. > :07:38.course of action. Let us not stand and watch as one of the great cities

:07:39. > :07:43.of the is destroyed, let us not allow 100,000 children to start in

:07:44. > :07:45.Eastern Aleppo. Mr Speaker, when Kosovo was under attack it was

:07:46. > :07:55.Britain who led the way. When Sierra Leone cried out, it was

:07:56. > :08:00.Britain who led the way. The people of Syria need asked to show that the

:08:01. > :08:08.leadership. Gerald Cox said our response to Syria will be an fanatic

:08:09. > :08:16.of our situation. -- Jo Cox. Her words are ever more true today. Let

:08:17. > :08:20.us not fail her. Mrs EJ, firstly can I say how grateful I am that the

:08:21. > :08:24.work she does enraging this matter through questions and indeed with

:08:25. > :08:29.other colleagues as well. I had the opportunity to meet the head of the

:08:30. > :08:33.White helmets, I think, the same time she did as well and he's

:08:34. > :08:39.dressed his frustration that the west was not doing enough as we saw

:08:40. > :08:43.the annihilation of a historical city, going back to the six

:08:44. > :08:51.millennia and the financial district and centre of Syria, almost

:08:52. > :08:58.condemned to ruin. She touches on your letter with 126 now. I made it

:08:59. > :09:02.clear in my statement that we are looking at all options but she must

:09:03. > :09:07.understand and I think it has been repeated in this house before that,

:09:08. > :09:18.were read to do unilateral our multilateral drops, it places asked

:09:19. > :09:22.in harms way. And in conjunction with what is already happening, we

:09:23. > :09:29.have to ask if that is the best and safest way to getting age where we

:09:30. > :09:35.have to go? I say... I say to the honourable lady, we are not ruling

:09:36. > :09:37.out options but we have to ask ourselves, would introducing British

:09:38. > :09:45.aircraft into this environment compound matters all make things

:09:46. > :09:50.worse? Are there safer ways of getting that aid in? What I say, an

:09:51. > :09:55.answer that to that question, because she raises a larger point

:09:56. > :09:58.about what is Britain and international community doing? She

:09:59. > :10:05.mentions the work of Jo Cox as well. I think we can all agree, in this

:10:06. > :10:13.house, that Britain has the ability and aspiration to play a significant

:10:14. > :10:17.role on the world stage. We, in 2013 in August, had that opportunity and

:10:18. > :10:26.read the link. We had an opportunity there to hold Assad to account.

:10:27. > :10:34.Because of that, we had a situation with Russia and Daesh coming in.

:10:35. > :10:41.Sign of what are you doing now?! The question I have is to the house and

:10:42. > :10:45.the person who just screamed from the seat. If we do not give these

:10:46. > :10:49.support we need, our hands are tied as to what we can do. I turned to

:10:50. > :10:54.the front bench who I think are of no different opinion to those there

:10:55. > :11:01.to say that Britain wants to engage on this. We are seeing that five

:11:02. > :11:06.resolution, UN resolutions and the security Council have been vetoed by

:11:07. > :11:10.Russia. We need to look at other opportunities. We can only do that

:11:11. > :11:15.if we have the full support of this Parliament. I hope we will get back.

:11:16. > :11:19.If the executive is to put forward and lean into this challenge in the

:11:20. > :11:28.way in which Jo Cox would expect us to do. The whole house will welcome

:11:29. > :11:34.the unequivocal statement that the Minister made on the Government that

:11:35. > :11:38.Russia is committing war crimes in Aleppo and Syria. The position in

:11:39. > :11:43.Aleppo is unclear today but two things they can say our, will be

:11:44. > :11:48.Government or its undoubted diplomatic efforts and then every

:11:49. > :11:53.thing you to secure access for UN and you and Jerry and support?

:11:54. > :12:04.Secondly, everything you to secure a ceasefire so negotiations can begin?

:12:05. > :12:08.Firstly, can I also offer my congratulations to my honourable

:12:09. > :12:12.friend who is again engaged in this and done his best to make sure that

:12:13. > :12:16.this Parliament is up to date and devolved in what is actually

:12:17. > :12:21.happening there. -- involved. He touched on the war crime issue and I

:12:22. > :12:26.have to say, it is unlikely we can holders perpetrated to account.

:12:27. > :12:31.Today tomorrow. We will hold them to account in the months and years to

:12:32. > :12:35.come. We are keeping lists and understanding who are the military

:12:36. > :12:40.leaders who are conducting these air attacks no matter what country they

:12:41. > :12:44.are coming from and all of those participating in supporting the

:12:45. > :12:47.Syrian regime must remember that their day in the International Court

:12:48. > :12:52.will come. We are collecting evidence to make sure we can hold

:12:53. > :12:56.them to account. With regards to you an access, which touches on an

:12:57. > :13:04.important question of air drops. The UN themselves has literally tonnes,

:13:05. > :13:07.ten of thousands of material, Kit, that they want to get into these

:13:08. > :13:14.areas and they have been denied asylum by the regime -- Syrian

:13:15. > :13:19.regime. We cannot use their roads or airspace that the permission to do

:13:20. > :13:22.so we will end up with the same situation that happened on the 19th

:13:23. > :13:27.of September when a UN led convoy moved into Aleppo and was actually

:13:28. > :13:35.destroyed from the air by Russian aeroplanes. Thank you very much for

:13:36. > :13:38.granting this urgent question from my honourable friend, the member for

:13:39. > :13:45.rural south. As she has made very clear, there is no situation worse

:13:46. > :13:48.in the world right now than the Unitarian crisis in eastern Aleppo.

:13:49. > :13:55.The amount of civilian casualties, no food supply. -- humanitarian.

:13:56. > :13:59.Lots of people already facing starvation. We have reached the

:14:00. > :14:04.point of last resort. The Government has previously made clear what that

:14:05. > :14:09.should mean. The former Secretary of State said, in June this year, this

:14:10. > :14:14.quote, while airdrops are complex and risky, they are the mass resort

:14:15. > :14:23.to relieving human suffering across many diseased areas. -- alas resort.

:14:24. > :14:26.Nobody is underestimating the risk involved but, with no alternatives,

:14:27. > :14:30.thousands facing death without immediate supplies of food and

:14:31. > :14:35.medical equipment, these are risks we must be prepared to take. Can I

:14:36. > :14:40.ask the Minister once more, will he take the urgent steps required to

:14:41. > :14:46.day to agree a plan for air drops by British planes with EU an and our

:14:47. > :14:49.international partners as has been called for by the White helmets,

:14:50. > :15:04.whose representatives I met last week? It was asked at the weekend,

:15:05. > :15:09.what was planned in the Russia -- if Russia and Assad continued to block

:15:10. > :15:14.roads? He said plan B was people starving. Can we allow that to

:15:15. > :15:23.happen? We cannot. He is quite right, Mr Speaker and I have that

:15:24. > :15:26.the Minister will agree. Mr Speaker, firstly, I should say that Britain

:15:27. > :15:33.was a humanitarian effort should be praised by everyone in this house.

:15:34. > :15:39.?2.3 billion, the second largest owner. ?23 million of that is going

:15:40. > :15:43.direct to you in organisations geared to making sure that aid gets

:15:44. > :15:47.to the most urgent places required. We are now debating the tactics as

:15:48. > :15:52.to how to get that equipment into place and she is now navigating the

:15:53. > :15:55.British aeroplanes, they delete paragraph or otherwise, get into

:15:56. > :16:02.Syrian air space and make those drops. They will be shot down. My

:16:03. > :16:06.honourable friend for the Armed Forces, I'm not sure that the UN is

:16:07. > :16:10.requesting air drops at the moment. I'm not saying they will be rolled

:16:11. > :16:17.out. I'm not saying you should be doing them. -- ruled alt. They are

:16:18. > :16:24.not being dismissed. I simply share with the added that it is hugely

:16:25. > :16:29.complicated and having been involved in airdrops on many occasions, many

:16:30. > :16:32.when the drop zone is particularly small, the jet landed the small

:16:33. > :16:36.place and is the very people who don't want to receive it. It is

:16:37. > :16:40.important that the scale that I touched on before of the agent that

:16:41. > :16:46.needs to get in means that the number of sources that would be

:16:47. > :16:50.needs to be conducted is enormous. You can get your exact location with

:16:51. > :16:54.transport trucks if they are given the conditions. If we are to conduct

:16:55. > :17:01.air strikes, and I'm sorry to labour the point, but it requires seaweed

:17:02. > :17:08.and support. If we can get Syrian support, it is better we get Syrian

:17:09. > :17:11.support to our La Liga to go through so they go to the people are

:17:12. > :17:19.requiring them. -- so they go through. I think my honourable

:17:20. > :17:26.friend men airdrops rather than air strikes but we can be very proud as

:17:27. > :17:30.to what the do as a country. Especially in the camps and running

:17:31. > :17:35.Syria. Today was the question is about those trapped in the mid-30s

:17:36. > :17:43.situation in Aleppo. What this house is trying to convey to my honourable

:17:44. > :17:46.friend is something around the most urgent issues in global politics

:17:47. > :17:52.today. We think this is an opportunity for the British

:17:53. > :17:56.Government to show leadership and to convene likely partners and

:17:57. > :18:01.kick-start the peace process and peace talks. But to come to be

:18:02. > :18:04.housed with concrete ideas about how we can alleviate the suffering of

:18:05. > :18:12.those men, women and children in what remains of one of the great

:18:13. > :18:16.cities of Syria. Mr Speaker, my honourable friend gives me a license

:18:17. > :18:19.to pay tribute to the neighbouring countries of Syria for the work they

:18:20. > :18:25.have done in taking on board literally millions of refugees. 11

:18:26. > :18:30.on, Turkey and Jordan in particular. One of the reasons we have organised

:18:31. > :18:36.the conference this year is make sure there are funds available. --

:18:37. > :18:43.Jo Cox. So the country can make -- Lebanon. So they can make sure they

:18:44. > :18:49.can return back to Syria one day and that the countries have their

:18:50. > :18:54.resources. We speak about Britain wanting to do more here. I had it is

:18:55. > :18:58.not misconstrued what I said earlier, I want to, I would like to

:18:59. > :19:06.but we are at the will of Parliament is to actually do that and make sure

:19:07. > :19:09.it happens. Honourable members opposite say... Yes, five

:19:10. > :19:16.opportunities in the Syrian vote did the Leader of the Opposition have

:19:17. > :19:26.and we ended up... Not having the opportunity to check Daesh before

:19:27. > :19:34.that was created and full Assad to account. I absolutely welcome it. I

:19:35. > :19:37.know passions are running highly and that is to be understood but it

:19:38. > :19:42.might help the house to know that I do intend to call everyone. There is

:19:43. > :19:48.many for any honourable member to speak from her seat. She will have

:19:49. > :20:12.the opportunity to speak in due course on her feet. This mean Ahmed

:20:13. > :20:15.Sheikh. -- Tasmina. A court of 1 million people have been trapped in

:20:16. > :20:21.the East End in the summer. There are no functioning hospitals, no

:20:22. > :20:25.more food. An independent and delivers have said that at least 219

:20:26. > :20:31.civilians were killed. Finding a practical political solution to

:20:32. > :20:35.ending this situation is complex and challenging what I say to the

:20:36. > :20:39.Minister, no practical challenge should be too tough. No obstacle to

:20:40. > :20:43.insurmountable to do the right thing by these people's suffering is

:20:44. > :20:52.growing day by day and she could fail to be moved by the

:20:53. > :20:57.seven-year-old who is live teeting from Aleppo asking for help while

:20:58. > :21:01.bombs are falling. -- tweeting. What discussions have taken place with

:21:02. > :21:06.Russia to the man that they sign up now to the agreement brokered by the

:21:07. > :21:10.UN to provide aid. Can I add the Minister what practical assistance

:21:11. > :21:21.has been offered by UK forces to deliver a? -- aid. As I say, we are

:21:22. > :21:26.doing our best work through neutral places. As they start to act as a

:21:27. > :21:29.unilateral operator in this very difficult and complex, multisided

:21:30. > :21:35.environment, we are seeing and can be labelled as an antagonist in some

:21:36. > :21:40.form by the Russians and by the Syrians as well. That is the

:21:41. > :21:46.obligation that we have. If we alternatively do things do the 19

:21:47. > :21:50.nations -- through the United Nations. That is how we will do it

:21:51. > :21:56.and that is how we are pushing our effort and are funds to support the

:21:57. > :21:59.work of the UN itself. She said and sorry to repeat this point and

:22:00. > :22:07.summarise, it is by two pictures that I use as an example in this

:22:08. > :22:13.house. The boy that has photographed at being bombed. He was alive and

:22:14. > :22:19.thrown in the back of an ambulance, members may recall. There is another

:22:20. > :22:22.stark image reminding us of the help of Syria. Alan Kennedy, the poor boy

:22:23. > :22:30.who was washed up on the jaded beach. Is that the joy they are

:22:31. > :22:32.leaving? I don't want that to be. I want us to do more. I hope we can

:22:33. > :22:47.achieve that. I have organised error drops in the

:22:48. > :22:53.benign environment, and that is the ideal situation because error drops

:22:54. > :22:58.are low, they are not high. Aircraft carrying them out are very

:22:59. > :23:08.vulnerable. If this House wants to carry out error drops in and

:23:09. > :23:14.non-benign environment, expect our aircraft to be brought down. If that

:23:15. > :23:22.is the risk this Parliament wishes to take, please in future vote for

:23:23. > :23:29.it and everyone in this House should take responsibility for that vote

:23:30. > :23:35.when an RAF aircraft containing seven or eight people are brought

:23:36. > :23:39.into the ground and everyone is killed, because that is the

:23:40. > :23:50.responsibility this House will have to bear. My right honourable friend

:23:51. > :23:54.with the experience he brings to the house shows the challenges we face.

:23:55. > :23:59.We need to work with the United Nations and get their advice on how

:24:00. > :24:03.best to get the aid in. I do not rule out the use of the drops, but

:24:04. > :24:10.it has to be that last resort when we are unable to get the trucks and

:24:11. > :24:15.by getting permission on the ground. I think in truth all of us in the

:24:16. > :24:21.house and the world feel ashamed at the fact that we are unable to bring

:24:22. > :24:26.food and medical supplies to the 250,000 people trapped in Eastern

:24:27. > :24:31.Aleppo, including 100,000 children. They are in harm's weighed today. I

:24:32. > :24:35.understand the difficulties, including the point made by the

:24:36. > :24:38.honourable gentleman a moment ago about error drops, but back in the

:24:39. > :24:44.summer the then Foreign Secretary told the house that agreement had

:24:45. > :24:51.been reached if necessary to use error drops and they simply say to

:24:52. > :24:56.the Minister, if this is not the last resort given what we are seeing

:24:57. > :25:03.reported daily, then what on earth is? Again I pay tribute to the right

:25:04. > :25:08.honourable gentleman and the work he has done in this area. I listen very

:25:09. > :25:13.carefully to what he has said. I spent some time talking about this

:25:14. > :25:18.with the head of mission at the United Nations in New York to

:25:19. > :25:22.discuss what we can actually do. Unless we have permission for

:25:23. > :25:25.aircraft to enter that error space, not necessarily British aircraft but

:25:26. > :25:31.any aircraft to enter that space, then the dangers likely to be faced

:25:32. > :25:38.considerable. We need to weigh that up to make sure we are content for

:25:39. > :25:43.those risks to be taken. I have immense sympathy for my honourable

:25:44. > :25:48.friend and the people of Syria have had no better friend over the past

:25:49. > :25:52.years than in this government in the Minister and I fully appreciate the

:25:53. > :25:56.difficulty he is in. Whatever it is we may have asked the Prime

:25:57. > :25:59.Minister, and I signed the letter as well, we need to remember that the

:26:00. > :26:04.United Kingdom is not the perpetrator here, we are seeking to

:26:05. > :26:08.do something good. Can I ask my honourable friend following on the

:26:09. > :26:12.question from the gentleman opposite, it was in May that the

:26:13. > :26:16.international Syria support group agreed, and that includes the United

:26:17. > :26:21.States and Russia, that if by June one the UN had been denied

:26:22. > :26:25.humanitarian access to any of the besieged areas then would call upon

:26:26. > :26:30.the world food programme to meet Judy out our programme for error

:26:31. > :26:34.bridges and error drops. If it was possible at that time in the

:26:35. > :26:38.circumstances to get the agreements he is seeking for error drops, is it

:26:39. > :26:42.not possible to redouble those efforts to receive the permission

:26:43. > :26:46.that he needs and those that would be asking to drop the food would

:26:47. > :26:54.also get the permission they need to proceed? The work of the

:26:55. > :27:00.international Syrian support group has been difficult and tested at the

:27:01. > :27:04.last meeting that took place at the UN General Assembly that I attended

:27:05. > :27:08.with the Foreign Secretary. It was clear that Russia was starting to

:27:09. > :27:12.split away with it intends to provide support in order to look for

:27:13. > :27:18.a political settlement, which was what was the purpose in bringing the

:27:19. > :27:22.group together itself. Again, we are left with the situation of gaining

:27:23. > :27:26.the necessary permission for the aircraft to move forward. I will

:27:27. > :27:32.certainly consider what he has said and if I can read back to him more

:27:33. > :27:36.details. I have a lot of time for this Minister but you shouldn't

:27:37. > :27:40.rewrite history about what happened in 2013. As one of the Labour MPs

:27:41. > :27:48.who did support action against President Assad back then, point out

:27:49. > :27:50.to him that he has two Foreign Office ministers on his own benches,

:27:51. > :27:52.former Secretary of State on his own ventures. The Labour front Labour

:27:53. > :27:56.backbenchers are all: for the government to bring something back

:27:57. > :28:04.to this House on error drops, so why didn't he just do it? Firstly, why

:28:05. > :28:07.didn't we just do it, because of the challenging issues that we face. We

:28:08. > :28:13.don't have permission to send an aircraft. We saw what happened to

:28:14. > :28:17.the Russian aircraft that wandered into Turkish airspace. We would need

:28:18. > :28:22.to gain the permissions to make that happen. On the first part, I don't

:28:23. > :28:28.wish to antagonise the house and trying to rewrite history. It is as

:28:29. > :28:32.much as this government's fault for failing to win across all Parliament

:28:33. > :28:37.Aryans. For me, that is the biggest mistake from our government that we

:28:38. > :28:41.did not take with us Parliament itself. We collectively needed to

:28:42. > :28:46.work together to make sure that all of us are up-to-date and outweighed

:28:47. > :28:51.the executive can be empowered to do such things, whether it be no-fly

:28:52. > :28:54.zones were dropping aids, but only with the will and support of

:28:55. > :29:05.Parliament can we make that move forward. Has any estimate been made

:29:06. > :29:13.of the willingness of refugees to return to Syria if the regime

:29:14. > :29:17.prevails? Yes. My understanding is that the absolute majority wish to

:29:18. > :29:21.return to Syria. This is the homeland, where they grew up and

:29:22. > :29:25.where they want to return to. It is one of the reasons why, which is

:29:26. > :29:29.debated regularly in the size, the amount of money that we spent on

:29:30. > :29:34.taking on refugees in this country compared with the amount of money

:29:35. > :29:38.that we pour into looking after refugees in the region. It is not

:29:39. > :29:44.the same support that we can offer, but the same amount of money goes 20

:29:45. > :29:49.times further per individual, that is why we in the summer to and

:29:50. > :29:53.supporting Lebanon, Jordan and Turkey because they want to stay in

:29:54. > :29:55.the region where the language is similar and they can return as

:29:56. > :30:01.quickly as possible once the fighting stops. He knows that I

:30:02. > :30:05.respect him and I know that he wants to do more but I have to say that

:30:06. > :30:11.for a Minister of the ground to stand at the dispatch box and

:30:12. > :30:17.effectively read from a Kremlin press release and saying that any

:30:18. > :30:23.aid mission will be shot down is a poisonous and sickening counsel of

:30:24. > :30:29.despair. He has said that he wants parliamentary backing for us to do

:30:30. > :30:34.more, for unilateral or multilateral missions. I say to him he has got

:30:35. > :30:39.that so why doesn't government get the courage of his conviction and

:30:40. > :30:45.make sure that this can be another Kosovo, rather than another Rwanda?

:30:46. > :30:49.Firstly, in Kosovo we had troops on the ground, it was a different

:30:50. > :30:59.situation, we had control of the airspace. There is the possibility

:31:00. > :31:04.that the British aircraft could be shot down. If I said anything near

:31:05. > :31:09.it and I correct myself and use this opportunity to say that we are

:31:10. > :31:14.putting British air personnel in harm's way. I hope that something he

:31:15. > :31:19.will concur with, it is a consideration that honourable

:31:20. > :31:22.friends such as the Minister for Armed Forces must take into

:31:23. > :31:25.consideration when they provide a recommendation to the Foreign Office

:31:26. > :31:37.as to whether this is practical or not. My honourable friend the

:31:38. > :31:41.Minister's frustration is both palpable and entirely understandable

:31:42. > :31:50.and it flows back to the August 2013 votes. Times have somewhat changed,

:31:51. > :31:52.the Labour Party is of a different complexion and others have commented

:31:53. > :31:57.this parliament since then. With my honourable friend think it's

:31:58. > :32:04.sensible for the Foreign Office, the Ministry of Defence in ten Downing

:32:05. > :32:10.St to perhaps go away and come back in ten or 14 days' time with a

:32:11. > :32:14.proposal to put before this House so that this matter can be fully

:32:15. > :32:18.debated, all of the concerns a honourable friend the Minister for

:32:19. > :32:22.the Armed Forces may have and other people of military and other

:32:23. > :32:27.experience have spoken about this afternoon can be considered and

:32:28. > :32:37.debated so that we can come to a single answer to what is a hugely

:32:38. > :32:40.complex problem? I concur with my right honourable friend, it is

:32:41. > :32:45.important that we are able to move forward on this and be aware of the

:32:46. > :32:50.consequences of us doing nothing. Sitting here with the briefings that

:32:51. > :32:54.I receive and the responsibility that I have is the Minister for the

:32:55. > :32:58.Middle East, I say I am very conscious of the comments and the

:32:59. > :33:03.concerns and the anger that has been expressed here today. We have to

:33:04. > :33:07.work with what is the art of the possible and the art of the legal.

:33:08. > :33:13.The Foreign Office is looking at various options and I do hope that

:33:14. > :33:16.we will be able to advance this, better understand ourselves and

:33:17. > :33:20.better understand, better educate the British public so we took the

:33:21. > :33:25.British public with us, which was a concern back in 2013, as well. We

:33:26. > :33:32.were all haunted by Afghanistan and Iraq. Was this another issue that we

:33:33. > :33:34.were going to get sucked into? Things are different now, so

:33:35. > :33:42.absolutely we should move forward on that note. Since the critical final

:33:43. > :33:45.phase of the assault on Aleppo started, with which foreign

:33:46. > :33:53.governments has the Minister discuss the feasibility of error drops? As I

:33:54. > :34:00.say, the discussion on error drops has been debated and discussed with

:34:01. > :34:05.the Americans and that was raised at the International serious support

:34:06. > :34:12.group and a it this morning with our UN head of mission, he himself was

:34:13. > :34:18.discussing it with... As our representative in New York. My

:34:19. > :34:26.predecessor, Stephen O'Brien, has been working hard to call out these

:34:27. > :34:30.war crimes for what they are. Can the Minister reassure me that

:34:31. > :34:34.British air assets, in particular I in the sky assets, are being used to

:34:35. > :34:40.gather evidence that can then be available for the international

:34:41. > :34:44.criminal war crimes tribunal to make sure that when these people are held

:34:45. > :34:51.to account we have the evidence to prove that? My honourable friend

:34:52. > :34:54.raises an important point. I won't go into detail as to how we are

:34:55. > :34:58.collecting that evidence, that would be operationally unhelpful,

:34:59. > :35:04.particularly with the Minister for the Armed Forces sitting next to me,

:35:05. > :35:07.but that is exactly what doing. It may take some time. We are

:35:08. > :35:12.identifying those responsible, those in leadership position to giving the

:35:13. > :35:16.orders for the strikes to take place and for those siege to occur on

:35:17. > :35:21.Aleppo and we will hold those people to account. If I made tribute to

:35:22. > :35:25.Stephen O'Brien, a former colleague in this House, who is doing a

:35:26. > :35:29.commendable job. The work that he is doing in turn highlighting the

:35:30. > :35:39.plight, the humanitarian plight of what is going on, I think we can all

:35:40. > :35:43.be very proud of the work is doing. I was distressed by the implication

:35:44. > :35:47.in the Minister's remarks that those of us who voted against the strikes

:35:48. > :35:55.in Syria were somehow responsible for his decision not to put forward

:35:56. > :36:00.error drops 48. Frankly, at that point we were not convinced that the

:36:01. > :36:08.balance of harm was being sorted in the right way. I think that if he

:36:09. > :36:12.was to today call for a vote in this House that those people who like me

:36:13. > :36:18.opposed military strikes on Syria would strongly be supporting any

:36:19. > :36:24.action that can get humanitarian aid to those starving communities. What

:36:25. > :36:29.is he going to do? And he is talking about it, what is he going to do to

:36:30. > :36:35.get this aid to the people who are starving? All actions will be done,

:36:36. > :36:40.or should be done through the United Nations. This is because they are

:36:41. > :36:46.the conduit that can be deemed by the Syrian regime and by Russia as

:36:47. > :36:49.being as neutral. Off we turn up ourselves and start doing these aid

:36:50. > :36:55.drops I hope the honourable lady will understand how that changes the

:36:56. > :36:59.dynamics of our involvement in the area, in difficult terrain. I not

:37:00. > :37:04.ruling it just saying it is a more complicated scenario. The United

:37:05. > :37:09.Nations does conduct that the drops, it has the capability, that facility

:37:10. > :37:14.to do so. It only does occur it has the permission the Syrian regime.

:37:15. > :37:19.That is the important part. On the latter part, I am sorry that this

:37:20. > :37:24.government did not do more to win people like her cells across. That

:37:25. > :37:28.was our failure as much as anybody else. That is if anything what we

:37:29. > :37:34.need to learn out of what happened in August 2,000 13.

:37:35. > :37:43.As one of the members who have visited the RAF and looking to the

:37:44. > :37:50.C130 cruiser you would be acting to do this, I think we should be very

:37:51. > :37:52.careful to avoid the "Something must be done" response to what is

:37:53. > :38:02.absolutely understandably something that shames humanity and, in recent

:38:03. > :38:06.years, with us on a par with Rwanda and other events that have shamed us

:38:07. > :38:11.collectively in the west. Learning from this, is there not other

:38:12. > :38:15.actions that can be taken, not only to hold Russia to account but to

:38:16. > :38:22.look at what really hurts that legal regime? -- evil regime. People are

:38:23. > :38:26.making business there, educating their children in this country from

:38:27. > :38:31.connections to that regime. They need to understand that they cannot

:38:32. > :38:36.bed with impunity and seek to enjoy the benefits that we all take

:38:37. > :38:42.granted in this country. Again, I pay tribute to my honourable friend

:38:43. > :38:46.with his military experience. The role of a C130 in conducting such an

:38:47. > :38:52.airdrop with the extremely difficult indeed. We do not rule it out. It is

:38:53. > :38:59.prone to a huge challenge. The Basques what more can be done. The

:39:00. > :39:06.heart of this, is Russia. They are pivotal in being able to influence

:39:07. > :39:10.exercised -- exercise influence over Assad and allowing humanitarian

:39:11. > :39:15.access in. Unfortunately, they're been five resolutions that have been

:39:16. > :39:18.vetoed, preventing even the most basic humanitarian access from

:39:19. > :39:25.getting through. Canadians are now looking at an assembly vote which

:39:26. > :39:29.would require half of those if it is not an assembly session. Again,

:39:30. > :39:33.tricky with Russia using their influence. We are collectively

:39:34. > :39:39.looking to see if the UN machine isn't working at this dire

:39:40. > :39:50.situation, and we are relying on it -- reminded of Rwanda, then what can

:39:51. > :39:58.we do. Can I just say that Kosovo didn't have a resolution and many of

:39:59. > :40:01.article on William Hague in 2011-2012 to support now flies ends,

:40:02. > :40:13.similar to what John Major had done to project the Kurds in Iraq. We

:40:14. > :40:23.have allowed people to do this by failing to act not in 2013, but in

:40:24. > :40:28.2011 and 2012 when Assad started this. We need to act, even without a

:40:29. > :40:40.security Council resolution, in order to save hundreds of thousands

:40:41. > :40:49.of lives. Following Rwanda, Mr Speaker, there was a issue where a

:40:50. > :40:53.reader choosing to kill their own people is initiated for you not

:40:54. > :40:57.being able to stand by. With phrases such as genocide that game at

:40:58. > :41:04.justify the inability of hesitance to step forward. He is suggesting

:41:05. > :41:10.something which is to bypass the legally actions on how we actually

:41:11. > :41:14.move forward. In Kosovo, they're there to on the ground and we had

:41:15. > :41:19.support in the region and local support as well. In Kurdistan, the

:41:20. > :41:23.RSA UN resolution which backed that as well. -- there was a. When do we

:41:24. > :41:28.get into the situation and do the right thing, but do not have

:41:29. > :41:35.international legal cover because it has been prevented by a P5 vendor

:41:36. > :41:40.who has vetoed at every opportunity? I'm sure the Minister, for the

:41:41. > :41:44.reasons given, is right to rule our unilateral action but what does he

:41:45. > :41:49.mean by his attacks on the Labour front bench and people like me,

:41:50. > :41:52.refusing to support military action in Syria? What could possibly be

:41:53. > :41:59.achieved by more bombs falling on this country? Surely our priority

:42:00. > :42:05.should BBC. We have do condemn violence wherever it comes from. The

:42:06. > :42:09.terrible violence inflicted by the Assad regime but also unusual in

:42:10. > :42:13.Western Aleppo which was not reported widely. I had the Minister

:42:14. > :42:16.will condemn that. If our priority is these and condemning violence, we

:42:17. > :42:21.have to accept that whether we like it or not the appalling Assad and

:42:22. > :42:24.his Russian backers will stay so we had to drop the demand that they get

:42:25. > :42:31.out and engage with everybody, that is Assad, the Russians, the Sunni

:42:32. > :42:37.rebels to get these because that is what everyone wants. I think my

:42:38. > :42:40.honourable friend is a very familiar that the conflict make of the

:42:41. > :42:46.country that today is Syria. With all its history. It is likely that

:42:47. > :42:48.they will be a federated model once we move forward from this

:42:49. > :42:52.recognising the differences in groupings in the country but today,

:42:53. > :42:59.the do vaguely situation where Russia is batting all its money in

:43:00. > :43:05.the region. It has a connection. -- regime. This goes back many years

:43:06. > :43:10.and it has to be honoured and reflexes. I say to all of the

:43:11. > :43:15.Russians, have a relationship with the people of Syria, not with the

:43:16. > :43:21.Syrian regime. Have a conversation with the leader, the coordinator of

:43:22. > :43:28.the free Syrian opposition. Move forward from there so that Russia

:43:29. > :43:32.can continue having an influence, if you like, in a place but not

:43:33. > :43:45.attacking its self to the tyrant that is president Assad. Next week,

:43:46. > :43:58.could be Minister need to discuss the future of Syria with one that

:43:59. > :44:04.act beach? I do make an opportunity if I can to meet with any people who

:44:05. > :44:07.are in the area, any representatives. Anywhere that every

:44:08. > :44:13.opposition is as well to engage and I'd be delighted with we got in this

:44:14. > :44:19.and discuss it further. Mr Speaker, I also signed the letter for airdrop

:44:20. > :44:23.spot as a former RAF serviceman, can I say how much I appreciate not only

:44:24. > :44:27.be Minister's concern but my honourable friend from Beckenham as

:44:28. > :44:32.well. I appreciate that. Can the Minister tell us whether he is aware

:44:33. > :44:38.that the Prime Minister having the opportunity to raise the Minister of

:44:39. > :44:43.air drops with the general secretary of Nato when he at ten damage the

:44:44. > :44:46.last year? Firstly, can I pay tribute to my honourable friend and

:44:47. > :44:52.I think was involved in the air campaign in Kurdistan and he brings

:44:53. > :44:57.a huge amount of expertise to the chamber. I'm afraid I am not aware

:44:58. > :45:02.of the details. I know the subject of Syria came up and maybe if I

:45:03. > :45:07.could write to him with more details of the conversation? In the letter,

:45:08. > :45:20.the honourable member for rural south who I may congratulate for

:45:21. > :45:27.this issue -- Wirral, she said that we now have to go to love because

:45:28. > :45:30.they have nothing to lose. The situation has got worse, so I don't

:45:31. > :45:34.know what has happened to Dean 's easy as back in May and my

:45:35. > :45:39.constituents and others in this as a whole by what they have seen back in

:45:40. > :45:51.the news. -- the situation. Why is the enthusiasm for air drops as

:45:52. > :45:56.there was with the morning. -- when bombing. That is not a good

:45:57. > :46:00.comparison to make because they will be how can they be made clear. We

:46:01. > :46:03.are looking at what he can do deserve support the concept of an

:46:04. > :46:08.drops itself. That with all the dangers and Gary that have also been

:46:09. > :46:11.expressed as well. I make it clear that we take the lead from the

:46:12. > :46:16.United Nations on the ground. If we are to do this in a neutral manner,

:46:17. > :46:23.it has to be done three U N. Every step in, we take on a very different

:46:24. > :46:25.perspective of our involvement in the Syriac campaign from which we

:46:26. > :46:36.would need the permission and bought this house. -- Syrian. Can I share

:46:37. > :46:40.my concern with the honourable member from Newbury about an drops

:46:41. > :46:45.in this house coming with huge risks? If they are to be done

:46:46. > :46:48.unilaterally, would my honourable friend who is in a difficult

:46:49. > :46:55.situation agree with me that we not only need five to cover of, but the

:46:56. > :46:59.Accra to deliver, helicopters and special forces to pick up the down

:47:00. > :47:03.crews if they were down and wounded and we do risk the awful prospect of

:47:04. > :47:08.seeing our own service personnel being dragged through the streets of

:47:09. > :47:11.guilt in some horrific manner by people down there behaving like

:47:12. > :47:23.barbarians. We agree with the concern? -- would he agree? Thank

:47:24. > :47:28.you. My honourable friend does bring forward a lot of reasonable

:47:29. > :47:32.concerns. There is a lot of air cover needed, an agency operations

:47:33. > :47:35.in case pilots have to bail out, rescue missions that had to take

:47:36. > :47:39.place and you would also be left with the rather stark challenge of

:47:40. > :47:47.hostages being taken. These need to be taken to consideration from an

:47:48. > :47:51.operational concern as to how we get the age to where they wanted to go.

:47:52. > :48:02.The UN to conduct an drops themselves but only where they have

:48:03. > :48:06.the clear permission by the regime. And Putin's modus operandi is the

:48:07. > :48:21.excessive use of force. We have seen it many times. We saw it not believe

:48:22. > :48:29.in the Crimea and Georgia. The situation in Syria, that robust

:48:30. > :48:31.facing up to Putin is now fracturing. How were the governor

:48:32. > :48:40.and make sure that we maintain a steady, robust cause? He's dealt

:48:41. > :48:43.out... My honourable friend who has got huge experience and knowledge of

:48:44. > :48:48.Russia spelt out the challenge that we face in actually getting the

:48:49. > :48:52.Russians to come to the table, recognising the web originating

:48:53. > :49:00.provided but that there is not a threat, in my view, for Russia's

:49:01. > :49:07.continued influence he touches on events but look at the Balkans,

:49:08. > :49:11.Baltics. The Iron Curtain. The issue Russia had was enormous. --

:49:12. > :49:15.influence. Every tiny country's swing to the west, Russia loses that

:49:16. > :49:18.their influence. At the heart of this, they don't want to lose a

:49:19. > :49:26.maritime, Mediterranean influence that is so critical to them. Thank

:49:27. > :49:29.you. I'm sure the Minister although I agree that they seemed in however

:49:30. > :49:35.were targeted and that starvation is being used as a weapon of war bring

:49:36. > :49:41.up Derby reads from particularly the 1930s. International law was

:49:42. > :49:45.supposed to stop this. What lessons can be learned from these situations

:49:46. > :49:51.and can be taken into this one? I think something we are looking at

:49:52. > :49:57.very carefully is, where is international left after this

:49:58. > :50:03.experience in Aleppo and Syria? When you get to the point that the UN in

:50:04. > :50:09.New York is unable as an international body which build

:50:10. > :50:14.alliances, designed to solve bring together states, 192 of them, in

:50:15. > :50:19.order to solve the world's problems cannot because of a single permanent

:50:20. > :50:24.member who can veto everything. That is a huge question for us to answer

:50:25. > :50:31.and a question that we need to say, how do we circumnavigate that?

:50:32. > :50:39.Aleppo's hospitals are out of action meaning medic Saskia amputate limbs

:50:40. > :50:46.of children without anaesthetic. -- medics have two. He knows there is a

:50:47. > :50:50.safer way to do so but he knows the latest humanitarian convoy has been

:50:51. > :50:58.bombed in September. He knows there will be no political solution while

:50:59. > :51:01.Assad and Putin think they can win the other hand through military

:51:02. > :51:06.activity. The residents of a letter to deny want to die. It is in our

:51:07. > :51:12.power to help them. -- the residents of Aleppo do not want to die. When

:51:13. > :51:19.do we help them? The honourable lady I think now these issues well and

:51:20. > :51:26.she raises the 19th of September convoy and I have taken some notes

:51:27. > :51:32.from that. This was approved by the Syrian Foreign Ministry. It was

:51:33. > :51:38.trucks loaded by the red Crescent, enough equipment for 78,000 people

:51:39. > :51:44.and it came to a checkpoint, the UN were told to leave the vehicles and

:51:45. > :51:49.Aleppo residents were told to jump in the regionals. There are Russian

:51:50. > :51:55.and following this all the way until it got to Aleppo territory and then

:51:56. > :52:03.the aeroplane came in and bombed every single truck. -- drones. That

:52:04. > :52:06.was with permission and with approval. They know what they are

:52:07. > :52:09.doing and this is the regime we are looking in which makes asked... The

:52:10. > :52:15.challenge of looking at those people so difficult indeed.

:52:16. > :52:23.On a way forward in Syria, are key ally, the United States, its

:52:24. > :52:32.President-elect has said that Syria is an influence of Russia. If that

:52:33. > :52:42.you remains, will we charter rule foreign policy position on Syria and

:52:43. > :52:45.the region? If I may, if I can pay tribute to the work of John Kerry in

:52:46. > :52:50.trying to bring the various stakeholders together. He has worked

:52:51. > :52:56.tirelessly in order to make this happen and I am sorry we have not

:52:57. > :53:01.had greater progress with the Syrian support group. We wait to see what

:53:02. > :53:06.the new administration's strategy and approaches to this. I would

:53:07. > :53:09.simply say that we need to work very closely with our international

:53:10. > :53:22.partners, not least America to make sure that we can exert greater

:53:23. > :53:27.influence on Russia. The honourable member has alluded to the words of a

:53:28. > :53:30.seven-year-old he said on Twitter last Sunday that her home in a level

:53:31. > :53:35.had been bombed. She was sent there were under heavy bombardment and in

:53:36. > :53:41.between life and death, please keep praying for us. There is no fool

:53:42. > :53:44.even chilling hospitals left on Aleppo and food ran out in early

:53:45. > :53:54.November. What recent discussions has he had with the Foreign to with

:53:55. > :54:06.other nations of goodwill about humanitarian relief? Our prayers are

:54:07. > :54:09.not enough, surely it is time to act and if you do that you would have

:54:10. > :54:21.large swathes of the size behind you. I don't know if he is

:54:22. > :54:27.speaking... The Prime Minister raised the issue of Syria at the

:54:28. > :54:31.last European Council. Our ambassador in New York is also

:54:32. > :54:35.engaged on this. Britain wants to make sure that we can keep the

:54:36. > :54:41.pressure up on trying to effect an avenue to get the aid in. If that

:54:42. > :54:48.isn't forthcoming, we need to look at other options. People in

:54:49. > :54:53.Kettering horrified by the news that 250,000 people in Aleppo have no

:54:54. > :54:57.access to hospital care and are facing imminent famine and will be

:54:58. > :55:01.conscious that that is a population equivalent to two and a half times

:55:02. > :55:05.the number in the borough of capturing itself. To get the sense

:55:06. > :55:10.of the scale of the humanitarian effort required, could the Minister

:55:11. > :55:14.tell the house high many Hercules aircraft or high many trucks going

:55:15. > :55:21.in on the ground would be required to supply the requisite needs of the

:55:22. > :55:26.population of 250,000? It is probably more a question for my

:55:27. > :55:30.counterpart to give you the details of that. It is an interesting

:55:31. > :55:35.comparison that needs to be made. I can say that the number of trucks

:55:36. > :55:38.that were anticipated to go through are dozens daily in order to keep

:55:39. > :55:46.the people of Aleppo alive unsupported. I have a great deal of

:55:47. > :55:50.respect for the Minister but I am disappointed that today was not a

:55:51. > :55:53.statement from the government. Doesn't the Minister believe that it

:55:54. > :55:56.would strengthen the hand of the government on the world stage in

:55:57. > :56:00.terms of the go see a thing around the drops to have the will of this

:56:01. > :56:07.Parliament expresses few through a motion brought but the government?

:56:08. > :56:11.If we are to move forward on this then we need to work together. We

:56:12. > :56:17.need to take the British nation with us, we need to work as a parliament

:56:18. > :56:22.as well. I hear what she says. We need to make sure that we debate

:56:23. > :56:26.these matters on a more regular basis or people are prepared to

:56:27. > :56:29.recognise the dangers that we may be putting our service personnel in,

:56:30. > :56:33.but also the options that are available for us to lean forward on

:56:34. > :56:40.this and get the result that we want. The Minister has been very

:56:41. > :56:47.candid about his reflections on the vote taken in this House back in

:56:48. > :56:51.August 2013, but what direct impact is that Parliamentary vote having on

:56:52. > :56:58.policy thinking now, given that if one of our plane to shut out of the

:56:59. > :57:02.sky you have to retaliate? Without revisiting the question too much, I

:57:03. > :57:09.do believe that collectively our inability to secure that vote before

:57:10. > :57:15.Russia had moved into this sphere, before Daesh was a word that we even

:57:16. > :57:20.knew what it meant, that was our opportunity to hold President Assad

:57:21. > :57:23.to account. For different reasons we blinked. Government needs to learn

:57:24. > :57:32.what more we can do collectively to work together to make sure that we

:57:33. > :57:35.don't repeat that mistake again. In his initial answer to the urgent

:57:36. > :57:41.question he rightly labelled the bombing of hospitals and other acts

:57:42. > :57:45.as war crimes by the Syrian government forces and Russia. At

:57:46. > :57:48.that amount can he explain further what specific measures the UK

:57:49. > :57:57.Government can take to bring those responsible account? As I say, we

:57:58. > :58:01.put forward, or a motion was put forward with British support that

:58:02. > :58:05.not leaving honoured by the UN Security Council to slide this

:58:06. > :58:10.across to the International Criminal Court. It was, guess what, vetoed by

:58:11. > :58:15.Russia. We are collecting evidence to make sure that in due course, and

:58:16. > :58:21.it may take some time as I mentioned earlier, told those who are

:58:22. > :58:26.perpetrating the damage, causing the atrocities, to hold them to account

:58:27. > :58:31.in the longer term. The Minister has set out in some detail the

:58:32. > :58:36.difficulties that he had his colleagues face in dealing with this

:58:37. > :58:40.very difficult situation and I appreciate that. He did however say

:58:41. > :58:44.that the government were considering a number of options. Given that we

:58:45. > :58:52.have 100,000 children on the point of starting and 250,000 people in

:58:53. > :58:56.total in during the conditions in Aleppo, will he undertake to come

:58:57. > :59:02.back to the house with a statement next week about the options that the

:59:03. > :59:06.government are considering and setting out what the government

:59:07. > :59:11.proposes to do, because this situation is incredibly urgent? What

:59:12. > :59:16.they will say is I agree with what she says and I would say that it is

:59:17. > :59:20.important that we keep the house updated. I will endeavour to do that

:59:21. > :59:28.on a regular basis, either myself or the Foreign Secretary or the Defence

:59:29. > :59:34.Secretary as well. I agree with her. I thank the Minister for his

:59:35. > :59:38.statement and according to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights

:59:39. > :59:44.at least 225 civilians have been killed, which includes 27 children

:59:45. > :59:47.since the latest assault started on the 15th of November. The government

:59:48. > :59:52.must do all that possibly can to assist those in Syria now, but they

:59:53. > :59:56.must also do more on helping those who have managed to flee the

:59:57. > :59:59.complex. Will the Minister please commit to pushing his Cabinet

:00:00. > :00:06.colleagues into accepting more refugees from this war-torn country?

:00:07. > :00:10.I touched on this earlier. There is a choice between whether we look

:00:11. > :00:17.after refugees in this country, and we have thousands coming this way,

:00:18. > :00:22.or we provide support in the region themselves. For the prize will

:00:23. > :00:27.capture one refugee in the UK, it to looking around 20 in the region

:00:28. > :00:33.itself. Different standards, absolutely. But they hoped she

:00:34. > :00:37.recognises that we have leaned into this with ?2.2 billion worth of

:00:38. > :00:44.support, doing our part in the region itself. I pay tribute to all

:00:45. > :00:49.of our Armed Forces in service around the world and I know that no

:00:50. > :00:54.one in this House would ever put them in harms way unless there was

:00:55. > :00:57.no alternative, so I asked the Minister what other alternatives is

:00:58. > :01:01.he looking at in terms of truant or unmanned aircraft to do these kind

:01:02. > :01:06.of the drops? I would also say to him that I could think of few were

:01:07. > :01:12.other clear-cut humanitarian crisis like this in my lifetime that would

:01:13. > :01:18.deserve an intervention by British service people to protect the

:01:19. > :01:24.children. We want to use our influence with our allies and others

:01:25. > :01:29.to work across not just the military aspect in making sure that if our

:01:30. > :01:33.military word used to provide the necessary humanitarian relief, but

:01:34. > :01:36.also work on the diplomatic corridors to get a political

:01:37. > :01:45.solution as well. It is not just one area we are looking at, we are

:01:46. > :01:48.trying to work across the piece. There is huge public support for

:01:49. > :01:54.skilled up humanitarian intervention. What contingency plans

:01:55. > :02:00.are in place so if permission comes for a drops they can become

:02:01. > :02:06.immediately? I won't be able to cancer that. It is an operational

:02:07. > :02:09.decision as to hire any form of the drops might be conducted and must

:02:10. > :02:13.form part of a wider package of humanitarian support for those

:02:14. > :02:22.people requiring it. It is extremely public if it so I hope I am not able

:02:23. > :02:27.to give a direct answer. I voted against the air strikes in 2013 and

:02:28. > :02:31.I also agree with the Minister about the need to deliver aid on the

:02:32. > :02:36.ground, not least because some of the that is needed is medical care,

:02:37. > :02:41.physical and mental, which can only be delivered in person. However, I

:02:42. > :02:45.have signed the letter that has been published this morning because the

:02:46. > :02:49.people of Aleppo are suffering in the most acute circumstances and it

:02:50. > :02:56.is no longer acceptable for me when my constituents to stand by. Can I

:02:57. > :02:59.call on the Minister and his colleagues to bring forward Atherley

:03:00. > :03:03.workplan at the earliest opportunity to the site explaining believe the

:03:04. > :03:14.risks so that honourable members can take a decision on fully informed

:03:15. > :03:21.basis. Our constituents want us to alleviate the suffering in Aleppo at

:03:22. > :03:28.the earliest possible opportunity. When we had a meeting co-hosted by

:03:29. > :03:31.John Kerry and the Foreign Secretary only a couple of weeks ago, John

:03:32. > :03:36.Kerry give oppressed in saying that he felt there was no appetite to do

:03:37. > :03:40.more in a general capacity in dealing with the situation in

:03:41. > :03:46.Aleppo. That was his observations having spoken to not just visiting

:03:47. > :03:50.this country but speaking to leaders across Europe. It is important that

:03:51. > :03:53.the debate we are having here is also being held in other capital

:03:54. > :03:57.cities as well because the collective effort is what we need to

:03:58. > :04:09.effect change in what is going on in the country of Syria. Everybody is

:04:10. > :04:18.focusing on Russia, but you also mentioned the Iranian influence.

:04:19. > :04:25.What is the UK Government doing to stop Iran's influence on this

:04:26. > :04:35.humanitarian disaster? Prior... There is a coincidence and attempts

:04:36. > :04:40.-- in a sense... There is a much greater dialogue with Iran to be

:04:41. > :04:44.able to discuss these issues. I spoke to the Iranian ambassador on

:04:45. > :04:49.Friday, covering a wide variety of issues. It is important that Iran is

:04:50. > :04:54.aware that other one to take on a more responsible role in the

:04:55. > :05:00.international community it has proxy relationships or interests in the

:05:01. > :05:04.region itself, then it must advance the way it does business and this is

:05:05. > :05:14.a great example. Iran could show the leadership that we are missing at

:05:15. > :05:21.the moment from Russia. What conversations has the UK Government

:05:22. > :05:26.had with the US President-elect? What consequences does he believe it

:05:27. > :05:31.holds for British policy going forward if we have to act ordered

:05:32. > :05:35.unilateral terms given the US President-elect's current policy? We

:05:36. > :05:41.are looking forward to the confirmation of the President

:05:42. > :05:47.elect's nomination for Secretary of State. When that is me and I am sure

:05:48. > :05:51.that we will be engaging to ensure or encourage America to be as

:05:52. > :05:54.involved and as committed to not just this issue in Syria but other

:05:55. > :06:02.challenges that we face in the Middle East. The Minister has

:06:03. > :06:09.mentioned the difficulties in dealing with Russia. He has not

:06:10. > :06:17.answered the question that my honourable friend Post earlier on,

:06:18. > :06:18.taken place with Russia to demand taken place with Russia to demand

:06:19. > :06:24.that they sign up to the agreement brokered by the UN to provide hate

:06:25. > :06:32.and what more can be done to get the talks back on track? This is raised

:06:33. > :06:36.on a regular basis. It was raised by the Foreign Secretary with Sergei

:06:37. > :06:41.Lavrov only last week. It is pivotal that Russia can play this role in

:06:42. > :06:46.turning the situation around and allowing humanitarian aid and a line

:06:47. > :06:52.pass as a nation of hostilities, at least a 10-day ceasefire, underlying

:06:53. > :06:59.political discussions to recommence. Point of order. On a point of order,

:07:00. > :07:03.you may be aware that over the weekend it was revealed that

:07:04. > :07:07.thousands of families with disabled children, including inmate on

:07:08. > :07:14.constituency, have lost out up to ?4400 a year in tax credits after an

:07:15. > :07:20.administrative error. This is as a result of the DWP failing to inform

:07:21. > :07:26.HMRC about family's eligibility for the awards and has resulted in an

:07:27. > :07:30.estimated 20,000 families were children who have qualified for DLA

:07:31. > :07:37.missing out on an additional tax credit premium of between ?60 and

:07:38. > :07:42.?84 a week. In the Autumn Statement, the government set aside ?360

:07:43. > :07:47.million over six years to ensure these families who are eligible for

:07:48. > :07:51.a child disability tax credits to be awarded this money, however the

:07:52. > :07:55.payments will be backdated only until April 2016 meaning individual

:07:56. > :08:01.families may have lost out on the entitlement totalling up to ?25,000

:08:02. > :08:04.over the past five years. Can I ask if you have had any indication from

:08:05. > :08:07.the Work and Pensions Secretary or any other minister that they will

:08:08. > :08:11.come to this House and make a statement which can clarify the

:08:12. > :08:14.impact on our constituents and, if not, could you give us any other

:08:15. > :08:17.guidance on how we might raise this issue in the size and scrutinise

:08:18. > :08:22.ministers on it at the earliest opportunity?

:08:23. > :08:27.I'm very grateful for her courtesy in offering me the advantages of it

:08:28. > :08:32.but the short answer to the enquiry toward the end the point of order as

:08:33. > :08:34.to whether I have received any indication of a likely ministerial

:08:35. > :08:41.statement on the matter is now. However more widely the lady has

:08:42. > :08:47.sought my advice and I'm very happy to try to oblige. There is, I

:08:48. > :08:52.believe, a range of options open to her. The moral, of course, we have a

:08:53. > :08:56.Treasury oral questions if honourable members wish to raise

:08:57. > :09:04.these matters with the minister responsible for the H M R C. There

:09:05. > :09:11.will be a lot of colleagues looking to do precisely that. Including no

:09:12. > :09:16.less all got a figure than the honourable lady herself. It is

:09:17. > :09:19.English and to the next work and pensions questions that it is

:09:20. > :09:25.regrettable but a fact that there will be opportunities to seek

:09:26. > :09:31.debates in Westminster Hall on this matter or alternatively end of day

:09:32. > :09:36.adjournment debates in the chamber in December. A matter in which, as

:09:37. > :09:42.the honourable lady knows, I take 18 and ongoing interest. Alternatively

:09:43. > :09:45.do that, the honourable lady may wish to gather support for a bid to

:09:46. > :09:51.the back bench and business committee with who's Jesse will be

:09:52. > :10:00.well for nausea. I have no doubt that the honourable lady -- chair.

:10:01. > :10:04.Will take the 11 if not more than one of these options with the

:10:05. > :10:07.vigour. I hope this applies not just to the honourable lady but two other

:10:08. > :10:13.members who feel very strongly about this matter. If there are no further

:10:14. > :10:22.point of order, we now on to the programme motion, the minister to

:10:23. > :10:27.move. Move formerly. Thank you. The question is the Digital economy Bill

:10:28. > :10:32.programme number three notion. As on the order paper. As many as are of

:10:33. > :10:40.the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no". I think the ayes

:10:41. > :10:45.have it. The ayes have it. We will now read the orders of the day.

:10:46. > :10:53.Economy Bill as amended to be considered. Thank you. Order. We

:10:54. > :10:57.begin with Government clause 28 with which it will be convenient to

:10:58. > :11:05.consider the other due causes and amendments grouped together on the

:11:06. > :11:13.selection paper. Two movie, I call the Minister. Prime Minister

:11:14. > :11:22.Hancock. Very much. -- Minister Matt Hancock. I wanted to keep people

:11:23. > :11:25.safe online. The amendment in this third route proposed to strengthen

:11:26. > :11:29.the enforcement of protection for children to improve access to online

:11:30. > :11:33.media and address consumer protection in telecoms. I'm going to

:11:34. > :11:40.take these three groups in turn, if I may. Subgroups of your excellent

:11:41. > :11:44.groups. Turning first to child protection. I and alighted at the

:11:45. > :11:51.cross-party support to deliver the Conservative manifesto commitment

:11:52. > :11:57.about age verification to access online pornography. It has been the

:11:58. > :12:03.lead so powerfully by my honourable friend for devices ably supported by

:12:04. > :12:07.my honourable friend from North West Hampshire that the enforcement

:12:08. > :12:11.proposed in the bill was not strong enough and my honourable friend is

:12:12. > :12:14.right. We have listened to the case that she and others have booed. They

:12:15. > :12:19.have advanced the argument that there will be some companies,

:12:20. > :12:23.especially based overseas, we simply do not apply in the law enacted in

:12:24. > :12:30.this house. It is clear that there is a case to direct a UK service

:12:31. > :12:35.provider to prevent access. We all want the Internet to be free but

:12:36. > :12:42.freedom operates within a framework of social responsibility, of norms

:12:43. > :12:48.and the wall. -- law. This will protect the freedom of adults to

:12:49. > :12:54.watch pornography online but protect children from the same safeguards

:12:55. > :12:57.online as they have off-line. -- with the same safeguards. I hope

:12:58. > :13:02.they will take a responsible position and the regulator will only

:13:03. > :13:08.have to use this sparingly as the bass majority of companies will want

:13:09. > :13:14.to obey the law. -- the majority. The regulator is expected to be BBFC

:13:15. > :13:18.to make this new system work as the look to take these proposals through

:13:19. > :13:21.the other place. We have been persuaded of another argument made

:13:22. > :13:25.powerfully, at second reading. The provisions be discussed today will

:13:26. > :13:30.see children protected by one of the most robust and sophisticated

:13:31. > :13:33.regimes blithely but, as my honourable friend for Paul Watson

:13:34. > :13:39.has said, and I see her place, supported by my honourable friend

:13:40. > :13:44.for St Ives, these protections have resulted in a disparity between

:13:45. > :13:49.UK-based OnDemand services and indices they OnDemand services and

:13:50. > :13:59.commercial providers of pornography on the other. We have concluded that

:14:00. > :14:06.we do not want these, clause 29 ensures children are protected by

:14:07. > :14:10.pornographic content wherever it is derived. I believe we will have a

:14:11. > :14:14.stronger system as a result. I turned to new clause three which

:14:15. > :14:17.proposes a legal requirement to undertake an online safety impact

:14:18. > :14:23.assessment. I understand the intent of this new clause but I think it is

:14:24. > :14:31.unnecessary because leading social media companies already report on

:14:32. > :14:37.their online safety practices of the ICT coalition. We work very closely

:14:38. > :14:40.with them to ensure that they take down content that is violent or

:14:41. > :14:44.incite violence, and to fight terrorist related content. The

:14:45. > :14:49.system is very important and is working well. Since 2010, we have

:14:50. > :14:55.secured involuntary removal of over 220,000 pieces of content and a

:14:56. > :14:58.requirement for a safety assessment is likely to be difficult to apply

:14:59. > :15:04.in practice because of the extraterritorial organisations that

:15:05. > :15:08.are involved in this space and it would be almost impossible to target

:15:09. > :15:14.individual from the small, online website for commercial purposes. Of

:15:15. > :15:17.course. I'm very grateful to the Minister for giving way and I am

:15:18. > :15:22.very grateful that he had agreed to an end rebuilt in this important

:15:23. > :15:24.area. I just wonder when he is addressing this issue have a

:15:25. > :15:30.responsibility of social media sites, what action he is thinking of

:15:31. > :15:35.taking to prevent what happened recently when Facebook refused to

:15:36. > :15:41.give to the police information that they had relating to a missing

:15:42. > :15:46.child. Well, God, making sure the premise that operates in that sort

:15:47. > :15:54.of space as the terrorist material and child rejection online -- of

:15:55. > :15:57.course. It's incredibly important to get right. That protection. The

:15:58. > :16:05.non-statutory system that we have in place, essentially non-statutory.

:16:06. > :16:09.That is to fit defenders both off-line and online, that works

:16:10. > :16:13.well. Collaboration with the police and others of the social media

:16:14. > :16:17.organisations is incredibly important and I would urge them to

:16:18. > :16:22.collaborate with the police whenever they are asked to do so. We have

:16:23. > :16:29.taken the view that effective and rigorous enforcement of rules around

:16:30. > :16:33.age verification is an important step to get the system up and

:16:34. > :16:38.running but for a system that is working well, with 220,000

:16:39. > :16:44.take-downs since 2010, we want to leave that in place because it is,

:16:45. > :16:49.on the whole, working effectively. In a lot of these instances, there

:16:50. > :16:52.are individual cases that are difficult but, overall, that system

:16:53. > :17:00.is working well and that is why you're the different approaches to

:17:01. > :17:04.the different areas. If I now turn to new clause ten. This makes some

:17:05. > :17:08.certificate requirements about online education. I maintain that

:17:09. > :17:14.this is not necessary as safety is already covered in the new computer

:17:15. > :17:17.and regular introduced in December 2014 from primary school, children

:17:18. > :17:22.are taught how to use technology safely, respectfully and

:17:23. > :17:24.responsibly. How to keep personal information private, how to

:17:25. > :17:31.recognise exceptional and unacceptable in Bolivia --

:17:32. > :17:35.acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. We can protect children

:17:36. > :17:37.online through both direct rules for the Internet and education but this

:17:38. > :17:42.new clause is not necessary and I wonder that, by putting a static

:17:43. > :17:47.system in place, it would risk making the task at hand harder. When

:17:48. > :17:50.it comes to that border protection, we expect social media and

:17:51. > :17:55.interactive services to our robust services in place quickly to address

:17:56. > :17:59.inappropriate content and abusive behaviour in their sights. A

:18:00. > :18:03.statutory code of practice, as proposed a new clause 13 is

:18:04. > :18:14.difficult to work because there is not a one size fits all solution for

:18:15. > :18:17.dealing with content and varies. It can vary by platform and buy

:18:18. > :18:22.innovation as the Internet operates. Legislation in this area is hard

:18:23. > :18:25.because of the pace of change. Users will benefit most companies develop

:18:26. > :18:30.their own business approach for reporting tool and in-house

:18:31. > :18:33.processes. Existing arrangements and the action being taken by social

:18:34. > :18:40.media companies is the best approach to tackling this problem. Of course.

:18:41. > :18:45.Thank you to the Minister for giving way. Judy tell us which companies

:18:46. > :18:49.and which sectors do already have a code of practice in place and how he

:18:50. > :18:53.is monitoring how those codes of practice are being brought up to

:18:54. > :19:03.date? We are working with parents of practice in a series of different

:19:04. > :19:08.areas. She will have seen recently -- codes. Twitter has brought

:19:09. > :19:13.forward a work towards an online code of practice in online use.

:19:14. > :19:20.There is more to do anything, I think, but it is better to have

:19:21. > :19:24.codes of practice that associations by India batting change with the

:19:25. > :19:30.times as usage of social media changes. By goodness, we all know

:19:31. > :19:34.how social media changes over time and not always in a good way. We

:19:35. > :19:38.have to make sure we keep pace with that and I worry that reading

:19:39. > :19:45.something more static into legislation will get in the way of

:19:46. > :19:48.those efforts. I... I agree with my right honourable friend is that it

:19:49. > :19:52.is incumbent on social media companies to play their part in

:19:53. > :20:02.establishing and rigorous three in forcing norms and social rules where

:20:03. > :20:10.we do not take a legislative view or not yet anyway. -- rigorously. Of

:20:11. > :20:13.course. I understand buying in from social media battle providers. I

:20:14. > :20:17.understand that. Getting out a position where, in response to the

:20:18. > :20:22.query from his honourable friend, it appears, and I may have

:20:23. > :20:27.misunderstood, that there is no code of practice going on at the moment.

:20:28. > :20:32.Things are being developed. I misunderstood because I thought he

:20:33. > :20:36.said codes of practice are working well and in place. Regarding the

:20:37. > :20:42.change of circumstances, he is right but under new clause 13, some fall.

:20:43. > :20:47.It says that the code of practice may be revived. That is the

:20:48. > :20:53.flexibility he prays in aid of. It is in the new cause. Can I just

:20:54. > :20:56.declare? When I said there were codes of practice, I was talking

:20:57. > :21:01.about the take-down of terrorist material and child abuse. Online.

:21:02. > :21:06.There are clear code of practice that have been in place for a number

:21:07. > :21:09.of years. In terms of social views online, that is where we are looking

:21:10. > :21:18.with the companies in order to make further rest in this area. Yes, of

:21:19. > :21:23.course. Can I thank him for giving way, he has been very generous. The

:21:24. > :21:32.computer curriculum which, I assume, serves only to England -- refers.

:21:33. > :21:36.Can I have what he has known in relation to that? Of course, the

:21:37. > :21:42.Government have had significant discussions over time with the

:21:43. > :21:45.devolved nations on these questions. Of course, they treat the question

:21:46. > :21:51.differently. There is a difference of them in Scotland and Wales, and

:21:52. > :21:56.of course in Northern Ireland. It is a matter for them. He is quite right

:21:57. > :22:00.that the concluding curriculum response was a matter for England

:22:01. > :22:05.whereas most of the rest of the bill is a UK matter, so I am very happy

:22:06. > :22:11.to clear that up. The public Belgium 80, previously considered new clause

:22:12. > :22:14.32, every move onto that. That was fully regulated to approve age

:22:15. > :22:18.verification providers and publish a code of practice with which these

:22:19. > :22:25.providers must comply. As I said in Trinity, I then think this cause is

:22:26. > :22:30.necessary because clause 15 requires guidance to be published in gems of

:22:31. > :22:34.the type of arrangement it will say are intertwined with the bill. This

:22:35. > :22:36.includes characteristics of age verification, control that will be

:22:37. > :22:42.considered acceptable and a number of different proposals for technical

:22:43. > :22:45.food and is for the age verification and controls have been brought

:22:46. > :22:52.forward Julie and made, I have been made aware of them during the

:22:53. > :22:53.passage of this bill. The clause 15 already takes into account the need

:22:54. > :23:05.for guidance in that area. Age verification of this sort is

:23:06. > :23:10.inevitably going to require a lot of information holding by the companies

:23:11. > :23:15.concerned. What assurances can give the house that that data will not be

:23:16. > :23:19.liable to be hacked, like it was in the Ashley Madison case? This is

:23:20. > :23:23.incredibly important. We will come onto some of the data protection

:23:24. > :23:30.clauses later in the bill, but all of this operates within the Data

:23:31. > :23:32.Protection Act, which as strong and strengthening safeguards. The

:23:33. > :23:36.government has said that we will opt into the forthcoming directive,

:23:37. > :23:43.which has stronger enforcement measures than the current Data

:23:44. > :23:48.Protection Act. All of the data measures in the sacked and all of

:23:49. > :23:52.the consequences of the age verification process will be within

:23:53. > :23:57.the Data Protection Act, which has a broad consensus of support behind it

:23:58. > :24:01.and has operated very successfully over a number of years. That means

:24:02. > :24:10.that the companies are responsible for the security of its data. Will

:24:11. > :24:14.it be the case that the data will be held in a way that is anonymous,

:24:15. > :24:20.that will not allow the people who have given the data to be identified

:24:21. > :24:26.should be stolen? The best security in the world can still be breached.

:24:27. > :24:34.It will be held in such a way that it is required to be secure and the

:24:35. > :24:39.data not made available. That is a common principle across a huge

:24:40. > :24:45.swathe of our life, that data must be held in a safe way. The Data

:24:46. > :24:52.Protection Act is already in place in order to ensure that that's

:24:53. > :24:56.happens. Coming back to new clause 32, requiring the regulator to

:24:57. > :25:01.approve providers is likely to be unnecessarily restrictive. But of

:25:02. > :25:07.course I understand the need to make sure that the age of the location

:25:08. > :25:11.process is of high quality. These measures are part of a broader

:25:12. > :25:15.effort to protect children online. For instance, parental control

:25:16. > :25:19.filters are a very important tool in protecting children from harmful

:25:20. > :25:23.online material and have been introduced by industry after the

:25:24. > :25:27.efforts of my honourable friend in the last parliament. In committee we

:25:28. > :25:31.discussed the concerns that the EU net neutrality regulations would

:25:32. > :25:35.range of these controls, which have worked well, illegal. I am clear

:25:36. > :25:42.that our interpretation of the EU net neutrality is that filters can

:25:43. > :25:50.be allowed when they can be turned off as fair by then a matter of

:25:51. > :25:54.future choice. I am happy to confirm to the highest for the avoidance of

:25:55. > :25:58.doubt we will bring forward an amendment in the other place to the

:25:59. > :26:02.effect that providers may offer these filters to put this issue

:26:03. > :26:10.beyond doubt. Turning to amendments 27 to 34. The introduction of the

:26:11. > :26:14.new law requiring appropriate age verification measures for online

:26:15. > :26:19.pornography is a bold step and that has many challenges. It represents

:26:20. > :26:22.the first age of ensuring commercial providers of pornographic material

:26:23. > :26:26.are held responsible for what they provide profit from. The Internet

:26:27. > :26:30.brings incredible and unlimited opportunities it also has the

:26:31. > :26:35.potential to change the way younger generations grow to understand and

:26:36. > :26:38.experience healthy relationships. Delivering on this manifesto

:26:39. > :26:42.commitment to stop children and young people having access to online

:26:43. > :26:46.pornographic sites remains a priority. We want to get this right

:26:47. > :26:51.and the provisions in this built in a bolus to do that. Measures will

:26:52. > :26:56.protect children from exposure to material that is clearly

:26:57. > :26:59.inappropriate for them and would be harmful for the development.

:27:00. > :27:08.Pornography is not the only online content that may be harmful for

:27:09. > :27:13.children. The inclusion of other adult material within the scope of

:27:14. > :27:17.the bill as proposed by Amendment 27 minute bid the most effective way of

:27:18. > :27:20.addressing these issues. Most importantly, we need to be careful

:27:21. > :27:25.in taking a proportionate approach to ensure the success of the

:27:26. > :27:29.proposed measures. I can assure my right honourable friend that we will

:27:30. > :27:32.continue to work to make sure that we are taking all of the necessary

:27:33. > :27:36.action on all fronts where children are at risk from harm and I look

:27:37. > :27:40.forward to continuing the discussions with her and others, but

:27:41. > :27:45.our approach I believe represents a targeted and effective way of

:27:46. > :27:49.protecting children from stumbling across pornographic material that is

:27:50. > :27:56.most readily material and potentially harmful and fulfils our

:27:57. > :28:01.manifesto commitment. He will be aware that one of the means by which

:28:02. > :28:05.young people are now accessing pornography more and more is through

:28:06. > :28:11.social media and sites like Twitter. Can he say how his age verification

:28:12. > :28:18.requirements will apply to twitter? The age verification requirements

:28:19. > :28:26.apply to the commercial provision of mammography. Pornography is not only

:28:27. > :28:30.paid for, but is also provided for a commercial return. There is a

:28:31. > :28:34.difference between websites that provide commercial pornography and

:28:35. > :28:41.platforms on which others can upload images. Getting this right one that

:28:42. > :28:51.second group is much harder than around the first Group. What we have

:28:52. > :28:56.decided to do under proposing to do is to put forward this bill to deal

:28:57. > :29:02.with the large swathe of the problem and get this working properly, and

:29:03. > :29:10.to deal with this, the mainstay of the problem, and then see how it is

:29:11. > :29:18.working. I appreciate that for those who really want to access pawn

:29:19. > :29:24.online, then if the are really intent on doing that, then there is

:29:25. > :29:29.a big challenge and stopping them. All of the evidence suggests that

:29:30. > :29:32.children's first interaction of them is by accident and it is by trying

:29:33. > :29:38.to prevent as much of that inadvertent viewing and the viewing

:29:39. > :29:46.for those who are not desperately actively seeking that we are

:29:47. > :29:52.legislating. I appreciate that this is not a utopia, but it is a very

:29:53. > :30:00.important step and he I hope you will accept that. Isn't it fair to

:30:01. > :30:04.say that four years ago providers like twitter talk us that it was

:30:05. > :30:07.impossible to take time visual images of children being sexually

:30:08. > :30:11.abused, but now he says quite rightly there is a code of practice

:30:12. > :30:15.in place, surely where there is a will there is a way and he has

:30:16. > :30:36.proved that he can make significant progress. Should he not be putting

:30:37. > :30:40.more pressure on organisations like twitter? The short answer is yes.

:30:41. > :30:43.This bill certainly does that. I think we can only do that... That we

:30:44. > :30:45.can best do that by delivering on the proposals here and then working

:30:46. > :30:46.with the platforms where it is essentially platform based

:30:47. > :30:53.pornography because that is a much more difficult technical nut to

:30:54. > :30:57.crack. He has spent more time in the last few weeks thinking about

:30:58. > :31:03.children and pornography than amateur he would want to. This bill

:31:04. > :31:07.deals with the publication of pornography. One of the things that

:31:08. > :31:15.we need to do is help children be more resilient and understand that

:31:16. > :31:22.these images are not normal sexual behaviour, they are of the kind of

:31:23. > :31:27.violence that should not be part of relationships, yet when we look at

:31:28. > :31:31.the research we learned that children, particularly boys, think

:31:32. > :31:35.that this is normal. What discussions has he had with the

:31:36. > :31:38.Department for Education to try to build greater resilience amongst

:31:39. > :31:44.children to some of the images that despite the efforts in this bill,

:31:45. > :31:53.that they will see. I agree with every word of her intervention. Yes,

:31:54. > :31:58.working with the Department for Education is incredibly important in

:31:59. > :32:08.building resilience and actively ensuring that people's health

:32:09. > :32:15.through relationships is taught effectively. The Secretary of State

:32:16. > :32:18.and I have both been in discussion with the Department for Education on

:32:19. > :32:23.that point. She makes an important point on the broader circumstances

:32:24. > :32:25.here that need to be taken into consideration, as well as the

:32:26. > :32:33.clarity through legislation that I hope she welcomes in this amendment.

:32:34. > :32:42.I will move on to mobile phone contract, which seems a bit of a

:32:43. > :32:46.shift. In new clause seven it seeks to place a mandatory obligation on

:32:47. > :32:52.mobile phone service providers to agree with the customer at the time

:32:53. > :32:55.of entering into the contract at financial on the monthly bill. Since

:32:56. > :32:59.this amendment was first to building committee we have had further

:33:00. > :33:03.contact with mobile network operators, and they already offer

:33:04. > :33:10.consumers wait to manage their usage. Apps that allowed them to

:33:11. > :33:17.turn on and financial caps, messages that are lured people when they are

:33:18. > :33:24.getting close to the, and an online tools that show how much data is

:33:25. > :33:34.needed to carry out basic online facilities. Legislation is not

:33:35. > :33:39.currently necessary, although movement in this direction is.

:33:40. > :33:43.Turning to new clause 14, I understand the frustrations of

:33:44. > :33:47.people who use mobile experience does not live up to their

:33:48. > :33:52.expectations, but while roaming appears to offer quick fix, it risks

:33:53. > :33:55.doing more harm than good because it undermines the incentive for the

:33:56. > :34:01.suppliers to invest in new infrastructure. This is particularly

:34:02. > :34:09.damaging in areas that have no coverage at all. Roman was

:34:10. > :34:14.considered by the government in 2014 and was rejected for these reasons

:34:15. > :34:19.in favour of licence conditions to drive increased coverage by all

:34:20. > :34:23.mobile operators. This agreement locked in ?5 billion of investment

:34:24. > :34:29.to deliver improved coverage across the UK. We now have 4G coverage of

:34:30. > :34:34.97.8 UK premises and I can confirm that this is happening because in my

:34:35. > :34:38.own constituency Paymaster has just been turned on last weekend and

:34:39. > :34:41.coverage on the road to Newmarket from my house is better than it has

:34:42. > :34:49.ever been, so I have seen for myself. The house will also have

:34:50. > :34:54.seen recent announcements from mobile providers that they are

:34:55. > :35:01.currently expanding coverage to meet these 90% of land mass requirements,

:35:02. > :35:05.that they must meet now by the legal contract and the license agreements.

:35:06. > :35:09.This bill strengthens the fines if they miss those license agreements.

:35:10. > :35:13.Of course we want further improvements. Last week, new

:35:14. > :35:20.planning laws came into force that allowed tall masts and we are

:35:21. > :35:24.informing the electronic code in this bill to allow operators to

:35:25. > :35:27.extend the neck what's making mast sharing easier and cheaper. These

:35:28. > :35:32.reforms have been quite vocal about the industry and off, will hold them

:35:33. > :35:37.to account for the delivery of wider geographic coverage. New clause is

:35:38. > :35:43.20 and 25 seats to place mandatory obligations on mobile phone service

:35:44. > :35:49.providers to allow and end-user determine at -- to allow the

:35:50. > :35:53.end-user to terminate the contract if they can't get coverage. The

:35:54. > :35:58.automatic compensation measure in clause three strengthens of compost

:35:59. > :36:01.by powers to require automatic compensation when there is a

:36:02. > :36:07.complete failure to provide a contract of service. The idea of not

:36:08. > :36:11.being able to break your contract if you're mobile phone signal is not

:36:12. > :36:15.good enough at home I think is already dealt with in the fact that

:36:16. > :36:19.contracts purchased at distance can be cancelled under a statutory 14

:36:20. > :36:26.day cooling off period and in the shop purchases often a check of your

:36:27. > :36:32.coverage cooling off period for two weeks after sign up. Some also offer

:36:33. > :36:34.extended periods to ensure that service meets the needs of the

:36:35. > :36:40.option of conservation without I wonder wonder if my right

:36:41. > :36:43.honourable friend would accept that this must be the only product around

:36:44. > :36:48.that you can buy that you could end up not being able to use. People

:36:49. > :36:54.don't just moved house in the first 14 days of contract. Will he look

:36:55. > :37:00.again at this? The primary way that I want to tackle this problem is by

:37:01. > :37:07.getting universal mobile phone coverage of UK properties. We are on

:37:08. > :37:12.track to get to 98% and back compares to the universal service

:37:13. > :37:16.for broadcasting requires 98.5%, so we are getting to the point where we

:37:17. > :37:22.have near universal service, but that is not necessarily good enough

:37:23. > :37:28.and what I would propose is with the forthcoming Green Paper on consumers

:37:29. > :37:32.and markets to work with my right honourable friend to make sure that

:37:33. > :37:38.in the Green Paper we address the issues of concern and make sure that

:37:39. > :37:40.consumers get a good deal from the mobile phone contracts and that the

:37:41. > :37:49.mobile phone contracts will work. I hear all statistic, what coverage

:37:50. > :37:53.is meant to be here, there and everywhere but they never seem to

:37:54. > :37:59.match the reality on the ground or in the living room, or any shop.

:38:00. > :38:04.Nearly the whole of the town I live in, three Main St, you can get

:38:05. > :38:08.absolutely no mobile coverage from any of the companies. It does not

:38:09. > :38:11.matter whether one of them is not providing a good enough service, it

:38:12. > :38:17.is any of them. No doubt he will share with DVD frustration that when

:38:18. > :38:25.mobile phone -- the deep frustration that when 3G licenses game, there

:38:26. > :38:29.was no geographic requirements. That is a serious mistake for this

:38:30. > :38:37.country. We have since engineered into the license agreement mobile

:38:38. > :38:42.phone geography coverage of 90%. The geography that is being covered is

:38:43. > :38:46.rising rapidly at the moment. For instance, with one provider, it was

:38:47. > :38:51.50% last year and is 75% this year. They have to get to 90%. It is

:38:52. > :38:58.increasing. It is a pity that, from the 3G license in the early 2000 or

:38:59. > :39:09.lack up until 2014, there is no requirement. -- 2000s. Author, has

:39:10. > :39:13.now said that they are in discussions about getting to a

:39:14. > :39:21.universal 100% coverage in the next licence period. -- Ofcom. I think

:39:22. > :39:24.the minister was trying to make a point there but all I'm trying to

:39:25. > :39:28.say is even with the changes of the elder chronic remediation to that

:39:29. > :39:34.are in this bill, I don't think we will be able to achieve that 98 100%

:39:35. > :39:38.because it is still too easy for an individual land holder to make it

:39:39. > :39:40.difficult for significant improvements to the infrastructure

:39:41. > :39:49.in that area actually, surely we should be seeing as much access to

:39:50. > :39:54.mobile telephony now as water. I'm not making a partisan point at all

:39:55. > :40:05.and acted during Ed balls on on Saturday night, I feel as an

:40:06. > :40:12.partisan as I ever have. -- un Partisan. I extend my condolences. I

:40:13. > :40:19.am speaking about coverage of mobile phones in the UK. My coverage is

:40:20. > :40:29.more rural than his if I may say is a real problem in constituencies up

:40:30. > :40:36.and down the country. I look forward to my campaigning visit to the short

:40:37. > :40:43.the marginal seat of Rhondda. Thank you very much. Yes. Grateful to my

:40:44. > :40:51.honourable friend. I, too, was pleased to hear Ofcom say they are

:40:52. > :40:59.looking at a universal service obligation for 3G and 4G signals.

:41:00. > :41:02.Statistics have been covered but the local topography means the signal

:41:03. > :41:07.does not reach the aims and leading visit my constituency where people

:41:08. > :41:11.are suffering. Well, I have news him because the next month, Ofcom will

:41:12. > :41:17.be publishing data at a premise level for those fixed line broadband

:41:18. > :41:21.and mobile phone coverage at each premise and, if the coverage is

:41:22. > :41:25.different to what Ofcom say, they have a mechanism where you can feed

:41:26. > :41:28.back to get a proper map of where they get coverage of both fixed line

:41:29. > :41:32.and mobile, and I would fall quality that's coming out enormously. I'm

:41:33. > :41:39.sure the select committee will investigate the data with great

:41:40. > :41:42.aplomb. Of course. I'm very grateful to my honourable friend forgiving

:41:43. > :41:49.way. Could I ask him to ensure that proper discussion takes place with

:41:50. > :41:57.DCMG to make sure the most liberal planning regime for phone that is in

:41:58. > :42:00.place to make sure they get a basic technological funds. Yes, we changed

:42:01. > :42:09.the law and the new rules came into place last week. Nobody prayed again

:42:10. > :42:14.either. There is unanimous support. If he wants to work with me on what

:42:15. > :42:19.further steps might be needed, to improve that applying regime

:42:20. > :42:27.further, then I am all ears. Of course. Generous. On his premises by

:42:28. > :42:31.premises survey which she refers, can I caution him and pressing a

:42:32. > :42:37.little whiny methodology? I live in a dense urban area. It is nominally

:42:38. > :42:51.4G. I check my phone periodically and sometimes it is 3G. Sometimes it

:42:52. > :42:57.is 4G. I gave a 4G, which is the future, but I can get it all the

:42:58. > :43:00.time. Well, I would say that 5G is the future. On the substance of his

:43:01. > :43:07.point, without this turning into a seminar on mobile connectivity, as

:43:08. > :43:11.more people use data over a particular mast, then I think the

:43:12. > :43:16.industry has a wonderful phrase that this phenomenon, which they say the

:43:17. > :43:22.coverage reasons. That is to say it comes in and goes out as other

:43:23. > :43:29.people use the data. -- the coverage breathes. It may be different. This

:43:30. > :43:34.has to be taken into account and the best people do this and analysis are

:43:35. > :43:38.Ofcom. They are doing. It is best to have this debate once they publicly

:43:39. > :43:43.driven by Brendan Baker. Of course. I am do my honourable friend for his

:43:44. > :43:52.incorporation of the Green paper about some of the issues raised by

:43:53. > :43:56.the new clauses. No one will believe the figure that almost 90% of UK

:43:57. > :44:01.premises are covered. It does not stack up with reality or with rigid

:44:02. > :44:07.infrastructure MP 's findings. I want to make sure that you doesn't

:44:08. > :44:11.want to believe this nonsense. I'm looking forward to seeing the data

:44:12. > :44:16.for that reason. Covering a rural constituency, I can drive for ten

:44:17. > :44:20.minutes without getting a signal at all, including Bath houses. That is

:44:21. > :44:27.probably the same from many of us. -- past houses. That is why it is

:44:28. > :44:33.good to judge whether these figures I write and I am with him. Our job

:44:34. > :44:38.in this house is to hold people to account to deliver great geographic

:44:39. > :44:44.coverage, whether in Rhondda or in Llewellyn or in Suffolk. Or indeed

:44:45. > :44:47.in Buckinghamshire. I will give away one last time on this section. I

:44:48. > :44:52.thank the Minister for giving way and I just want to make what is a

:44:53. > :44:57.quick and constructive point. I encourage all members to make

:44:58. > :45:03.constituents downwardly Ofcom at which is designed to gather data so

:45:04. > :45:09.we are better informed. -- app. Please publicise this in your

:45:10. > :45:13.constituency. Quite fair and, as he may say, I'm not sure that is

:45:14. > :45:29.entirely a matter for this bill but he has made his point. New clauses

:45:30. > :45:31.21, 22 and 27 from Plaid and the SNP are not necessary because they have

:45:32. > :45:39.set at the position. On new clause 21, it is already a requirement that

:45:40. > :45:46.these sites must be made available to all the network operators. On 22,

:45:47. > :45:54.of, already has the power to do so. -- Ofcom. On new clause 27, we

:45:55. > :46:00.already have a USO in this get high speed broadband in any premise. That

:46:01. > :46:05.is the goal we share. On 26, the commentator is your interference to

:46:06. > :46:09.assisted listening devices very seriously and, where necessary, will

:46:10. > :46:15.work with the actor Jake appropriate action to where interference has

:46:16. > :46:18.been notified. I met with the national deaf Children's Society and

:46:19. > :46:23.I can tell the house that further testing will commence next month and

:46:24. > :46:25.Ofcom will publish their findings by April 20 17th and I hope you're

:46:26. > :46:31.making some progress on that important matter. I will. I'm

:46:32. > :46:34.grateful. Just on that, I'm encouraged by what the Minister is

:46:35. > :46:41.saying but there is a particular issue for deaf children where

:46:42. > :46:47.interference from the spectrum can have a very bad effect on their

:46:48. > :46:54.education. We pay attention to children in schools. Of course I

:46:55. > :47:00.will. -- will you? I have discussed that and I will continue to work on

:47:01. > :47:04.it. Turning finally to Government Amendment 23 and 24, these are

:47:05. > :47:08.technical amendments about the installation of electronically

:47:09. > :47:14.negations apparatus on tidal land owned by the Crown. I would

:47:15. > :47:20.recommend to the house that they are the gel and technical, and that they

:47:21. > :47:26.should support them. -- detailed. I beg to move the amendments and I

:47:27. > :47:31.hope, following these extra nations, the new clauses that we table the

:47:32. > :47:37.commitments I've given, that honourable members would withdraw

:47:38. > :47:40.theirs. Thank you. Age and location regulators power to direct Internet

:47:41. > :47:48.service providers to block access to material. Order. The question is

:47:49. > :48:01.that new clause 28 B read a second time? Thank you very much. I move to

:48:02. > :48:04.clause 27, which stand in the name of my honourable friend. And to

:48:05. > :48:08.discuss the new clause of much of the Minister has just outlines to

:48:09. > :48:15.the house and to new clause one, which is part of this group as the

:48:16. > :48:19.Minister has mentioned. I also make reference to some of the other

:48:20. > :48:23.amendments in this group. We made it clear in committee that we could not

:48:24. > :48:31.see how age verification could operate without power to block

:48:32. > :48:37.sites. That failed to comply, as did the honourable lady. The Minister

:48:38. > :48:41.resisted that very strongly and I quote, he says that the powers are

:48:42. > :48:44.not a silver bullet, sites are actively trying to avoid the bill

:48:45. > :48:48.and they could actively avoid these measures. It is questionable how

:48:49. > :48:52.much additional enforcement power they would bring in giving nose and

:48:53. > :48:57.down the sites. He went on to say that the bill has ended up with the

:48:58. > :49:01.correct balance. That is what he said in committee. Clearly, the

:49:02. > :49:07.secretary of state disagreed with him on that and she has now

:49:08. > :49:14.overruled her junior minister by tabling new clauses 28 and 29 in her

:49:15. > :49:19.name. As they can see on the order paper and in the event and will. The

:49:20. > :49:24.new clauses tabled by the Secretary of State who is now no longer in

:49:25. > :49:28.place, represent very significant changes at quite a late common stage

:49:29. > :49:33.to the bill concerning our contention that the bill, as

:49:34. > :49:37.published, was not ready to leave home when it was allowed to do so.

:49:38. > :49:44.Without age verification by the Minister. I will give way. Grateful.

:49:45. > :49:47.As he knows from his ministerial experience, it is the job of junior

:49:48. > :49:51.middle ranking ministers to do all the work and secretaries of state to

:49:52. > :49:55.take all the credit. In this case, I can assure him that the ears of all

:49:56. > :50:01.the Government front bench with opens to the changes he and I wanted

:50:02. > :50:08.to make. I am very grateful for that intervention and all I can say is

:50:09. > :50:11.that the secretary of state, I will just get to the credit as he is a

:50:12. > :50:15.lesson that I should for this change. -- give her the credit. The

:50:16. > :50:19.new clauses are very significant changes at this late stage of the

:50:20. > :50:25.bill. There have been concerns raised about them as we can support

:50:26. > :50:27.them. They're been concerns in the rest of the amendments go well

:50:28. > :50:34.beyond a backstop power, potentially, to block sites to under

:50:35. > :50:41.18 and a cute in fact used to extend Internet censorship -- they cooed.

:50:42. > :50:46.We need to be clear as to whether that is the intention through these

:50:47. > :50:52.news clauses? I will give way on that point. I have also seen those

:50:53. > :50:55.reports and I think the reports misread the bill. It is not our

:50:56. > :51:01.intention or understanding of the working of the amendments. I think

:51:02. > :51:04.it's very helpful to have that on the wreckage. Note that the part of

:51:05. > :51:11.the bill will be poured over and I was bloody gel when they arrive in

:51:12. > :51:17.the other place but given time dimer time constraint is a. We do not have

:51:18. > :51:19.the time to pour over these proposals and had been building

:51:20. > :51:24.ready, we would have. Notwithstanding article for

:51:25. > :51:27.blocking, I think there is a lot more scrutiny will be required when

:51:28. > :51:30.there is more time available in the other place when they come to

:51:31. > :51:35.discuss these Government new clauses on the assumption that the house

:51:36. > :51:42.passes them tonight. We have argued repeatedly that the bill to repair

:51:43. > :51:46.the UK -- prepare the UK for the challenges. Digital resilience of

:51:47. > :51:50.the key part of the bell and the opportunities can't be exploited in

:51:51. > :51:53.the Digital economy unless they feel safe and secure online. That is

:51:54. > :51:58.nowhere more important and clear and any case of other children. Children

:51:59. > :52:05.are growing up today in a midst of information revolution that even a

:52:06. > :52:12.decade ago, was an unimaginable thing with an astonishing range of

:52:13. > :52:14.information and today's children are taking in an astonishing five times

:52:15. > :52:20.more information on any generation which are in need not so distant

:52:21. > :52:24.1990s. Far from tabloid stories about a distracted generation, there

:52:25. > :52:28.is growing up today are, in some ways, an positive on the most

:52:29. > :52:35.involved generation in history but, of course, Mr Ziegler, knowledge is

:52:36. > :52:40.not understanding. -- Mr Speaker. Wisdom comes from experience. The

:52:41. > :52:45.challenges of this revolution cannot be ignored and the challenges across

:52:46. > :52:49.the country that parents worry about everything all day. They are worried

:52:50. > :52:52.they may not know what their children are being subjected to

:52:53. > :52:56.online, whether bullying are coming across inappropriate images and as

:52:57. > :53:01.their children come to know much more about the online world and

:53:02. > :53:07.Nadine, parents feel they may not be best placed to stop it. In our view,

:53:08. > :53:11.new clause ten, which we have tabled, would help of all to face up

:53:12. > :53:19.to that challenge. Our new clause will amend that to teach secondary

:53:20. > :53:23.school pupils in an age appropriate way and with the usual safeguards

:53:24. > :53:27.which applied to that act about the dangers of the online world and how

:53:28. > :53:33.to keep yourself safe. With digital devices more widespread among

:53:34. > :53:39.children than ever before, with five - 15-year-olds spending an average

:53:40. > :53:45.of 24 hours online every week, having no clear indication to sit

:53:46. > :53:48.alongside the blood instruments, and it is a blunt instrument of age

:53:49. > :53:51.verification contained within the bill, it feels to us like that is an

:53:52. > :54:02.important missing part of the bill. Age verification in the Digital

:54:03. > :54:07.Economy Bill to stop children seeing harmful content is welcome but as

:54:08. > :54:12.the minister hinted himself, it is not the whole answer. You can build

:54:13. > :54:17.a swimming pool, fill it with water, build a fence around it, and put up

:54:18. > :54:22.a sign saying swimming is dangerous, but the most important thing is to

:54:23. > :54:27.teach your children how to swim. If we solely rely on age verification

:54:28. > :54:35.as the main way that we are going to tackle this problem, then it will be

:54:36. > :54:40.inadequate. Age verification cannot teach children about healthy

:54:41. > :54:44.relationships. It cannot help them to navigate the expectations placed

:54:45. > :54:51.on them and reinforce online. That can only be done through well

:54:52. > :54:54.devised and well taught sex and relationship education which

:54:55. > :54:59.incorporate conversations about online pornography. So that children

:55:00. > :55:05.can question what they see online in a safe environment. A recent NSPCC

:55:06. > :55:11.report on pornography online and the under 18 's was troubling. They

:55:12. > :55:15.founded a poor model for consent for practising safe sex and could

:55:16. > :55:20.distort the image of a sexual relationship. But the government

:55:21. > :55:23.have so far refused to consider statutory online sexual education

:55:24. > :55:28.and the government's keeping children safe strategy dedicated

:55:29. > :55:34.three paragraphs to the online world. Taken in tandem with this

:55:35. > :55:39.Digital Economy Bill, which does not give a single mention of online

:55:40. > :55:43.abuse or online education, it seems that ministers are ducking the

:55:44. > :55:49.challenge or not able to comprehend it. We have always known that

:55:50. > :55:54.education matters in this area. When we were in government, we expanded

:55:55. > :55:58.and updated sexual education and commissioned the Tanya Byron Review

:55:59. > :56:04.these lessons were abandoned largely, after 2010. That is why, in

:56:05. > :56:12.the Digital Economy Bill, we want to take steps to devote -- towards

:56:13. > :56:16.developing education for the online generation. We wanted to develop

:56:17. > :56:25.beyond sex education to the entire online world. So that children can

:56:26. > :56:30.make safe and informed decisions. With an 800% increase in children

:56:31. > :56:35.contacting the NSPCC about online abuse, it is clear this is a real

:56:36. > :56:42.problem for today's schoolchildren. They need more support, more advice,

:56:43. > :56:47.some won't return to. Statutory online education would work in

:56:48. > :56:53.tandem with educators to prevent online abuse. I will give way. Thank

:56:54. > :56:58.you for giving way to the Shadow Minister. I am attracted to what he

:56:59. > :57:03.has within his amendment because I, like him, feel that more needs to be

:57:04. > :57:08.done to educate children in this area. But I am concerned that it is

:57:09. > :57:11.talking about Internet pornography in isolation and could potentially

:57:12. > :57:15.not really address the problem is that he is trying to address in his

:57:16. > :57:21.remarks which are far broader than Internet pornography. I would

:57:22. > :57:25.welcome her support for a wider amendment, a wider change in

:57:26. > :57:31.government policy in this area. Because I believe it is a problem.

:57:32. > :57:36.We are having to draw our amendment today within the scope of this

:57:37. > :57:40.particular bill. In committee, we were unable to get an amendment in

:57:41. > :57:44.scope and I'm grateful we could get one in scope today but within the

:57:45. > :57:51.confines of this particular bill. She makes a very good point. I give

:57:52. > :57:54.way. I would entirely support my honourable friend in this because

:57:55. > :58:00.his experience will be similar to mine, in going round schools and one

:58:01. > :58:04.of the things that bedevils teachers is mobile phone, online bullying,

:58:05. > :58:12.sex sting and teachers don't have the training to deal with that and

:58:13. > :58:19.they are with the best of intentions sometimes fumbling. And having this

:58:20. > :58:21.structured into the curricula would help every secondary schoolteacher

:58:22. > :58:27.even if they were not themselves teaching it? I think my honourable

:58:28. > :58:33.friend makes a valuable point and as a former teacher from the analogue

:58:34. > :58:36.age, there are no doubt many teachers who would have started

:58:37. > :58:39.their careers around the same time as me who would fall into that

:58:40. > :58:47.category that he is telling us about. Statutory online education

:58:48. > :58:52.could work in tandem but protecting our children is a major challenge.

:58:53. > :58:56.It can't happen without education. That is why I'm disappointed that

:58:57. > :58:59.the minister did not support our close today. It seems to be the

:59:00. > :59:03.other side of what the government is trying to do through age

:59:04. > :59:08.reification. We completely contended that this is necessary and we will

:59:09. > :59:14.divide the House if we have to on this particular point. I also rise

:59:15. > :59:31.to support our new clause 30 two. It would oblige the age -- numeric 32.

:59:32. > :59:36.It would oblige providers to ensure that Berwick.... It would force them

:59:37. > :59:41.to perform an array of other duties as well. This would address some of

:59:42. > :59:46.the concerned about the practicality that we have heard about age

:59:47. > :59:50.verification checks and that only minimal data are required and kept

:59:51. > :59:56.secure that individual's privacy and liberty is protected. We were not

:59:57. > :00:02.reassured by the Minister's comments at committee stage and not by his

:00:03. > :00:06.comments today just by saying that age verification software is

:00:07. > :00:11.improving, is enough. We should be able to guarantee the privacy of the

:00:12. > :00:16.individual before the verification tool comes into force. We are not

:00:17. > :00:23.asking anything unreasonable of the regulator or of the age verification

:00:24. > :00:26.providers. The principles of privacy, anonymity and

:00:27. > :00:31.proportionality should underpin the age verification tool. As far as I

:00:32. > :00:34.am aware, they have not featured in any draft guidance, codes of

:00:35. > :00:41.guidance or documents accompanying this bill so far. If anyone thinks

:00:42. > :00:48.I'm being partisan, the information Commissioner agrees. His office's

:00:49. > :00:52.response to the Department's consultation on age verification for

:00:53. > :00:57.pornography raise the concern said that any solution implemented must

:00:58. > :01:06.be compliant with the requirements of the Data Protection Act 1998 and

:01:07. > :01:13.the privacy and electronic indications directive 2000 that sit

:01:14. > :01:19.alongside. -- electronic communications. They said that

:01:20. > :01:25.privacy by design would seem particularly relevant, designing a

:01:26. > :01:29.system that appropriately protects individual's privacy while achieving

:01:30. > :01:36.stated aims. In fact is, that would mean only collecting the data

:01:37. > :01:43.required, the minimum data. Having established what that was. Data

:01:44. > :01:47.should be restrictively defined and any activities should keep to these

:01:48. > :01:58.restricted purposes. In the context of preventing children from online

:01:59. > :02:01.Inc -- accessing online commercial pornography, any solution considered

:02:02. > :02:07.needs to be focused on proving the existence or absence of the age

:02:08. > :02:14.attribute to the exclusion of other more details information. I will go

:02:15. > :02:21.on much longer if the Minister keeps making gestures at me. To the

:02:22. > :02:28.exclusion of more information. I will give way to the Minister. I'm

:02:29. > :02:33.very grateful to the honourable member for giving way. I would like

:02:34. > :02:36.to clear this point up. Precisely my response to this question when it

:02:37. > :02:46.came up while I was on my feet is that the Data Protection Act that

:02:47. > :02:52.the ICO sites is the legal framework for delivery on this. They further

:02:53. > :02:58.quotes that he read out sets out how that act would operate in this case.

:02:59. > :03:04.So the quota that he reads out proves the point that the required

:03:05. > :03:09.legislation for ensuring protection of data in this case is already in

:03:10. > :03:14.existence in the Data Protection Act and other measures. We will see

:03:15. > :03:18.whether the information Commissioner agrees with that. She made it clear

:03:19. > :03:24.that she would have significant concerns about any method of AJ

:03:25. > :03:28.vocation that requires the collection -- age of revocation that

:03:29. > :03:34.requires the collection of passports or other documents which are

:03:35. > :03:38.vulnerable to miss use or attractive to disreputable third parties. We

:03:39. > :03:43.will see whether she agrees. It seems to me that the Minister gave

:03:44. > :03:47.no real reason why he is not supporting our new clause which

:03:48. > :03:55.would give that reassurance. The risks of creating databases that

:03:56. > :03:59.contain people's names, credit card details, alongside their

:04:00. > :04:04.pornographic preferences, are clear. Our priority is to protect children.

:04:05. > :04:10.Let's be clear about that. That is agreed across the House. But one

:04:11. > :04:14.consequence of the recent hack mentioned earlier on was the number

:04:15. > :04:19.of suicides as the result of that hack. We should proceed with caution

:04:20. > :04:25.before creating any process that will result in the storing of data

:04:26. > :04:26.which could be leaked, hacks all commercialised and would otherwise

:04:27. > :04:36.be completely private and legitimate. -- hacked all

:04:37. > :04:41.commercialised. That is the reason for rejecting anything that would

:04:42. > :04:49.not put duties on the age verification provided to ensure that

:04:50. > :04:54.all data could not be for commercial use. Turning to new clause seven,

:04:55. > :05:01.which also stand in my name, this new clause and would mean that

:05:02. > :05:04.mobile phone service providers must give all consumers the opportunity

:05:05. > :05:08.to put a financial cap on their monthly mobile phone bill and that a

:05:09. > :05:12.mobile phone service cannot be provided until the mobile phone

:05:13. > :05:19.service provider is put on a cap Andy Goode -- agreed amount. The

:05:20. > :05:28.arguments put forward by the Minister were no -- were in no way

:05:29. > :05:34.sufficient. So anybody who looks at their bank balance and find that

:05:35. > :05:39.there is mobile phone bill has come out higher than they are. Builder,

:05:40. > :05:49.located, few of us understand how much data we need. -- bills are

:05:50. > :05:54.congregated. An example reveals the problem. One client changed his

:05:55. > :05:59.shift patterns and started using his mobile phone to watch films. He got

:06:00. > :06:04.a text to say he had gone over his allowance and did not think more

:06:05. > :06:09.about it and got a bill for ?2000 at the end of the month. His service

:06:10. > :06:14.was subsequently cut off. Research suggests that one in five consumers

:06:15. > :06:18.find difficult to keep track of what they spend on data and the average

:06:19. > :06:24.unexpectedly high bill is often double the cost of the monthly fee.

:06:25. > :06:27.Isn't another problem with the unpredictability that in some

:06:28. > :06:32.contracts, you pay for what you receive, what other people send you

:06:33. > :06:39.in text and e-mails and that really isn't under your control at all? She

:06:40. > :06:48.is absolutely right. I think that is why our new clause is so helpful

:06:49. > :06:53.because it means you could, bar anything happening not through your

:06:54. > :06:59.own actions, and Citizens Advice received more than 60,000 enquiries

:07:00. > :07:03.about telephone and broadband debt with its in-depth specialists

:07:04. > :07:09.dealing with 20,000 individual mobile phone debt cases. Consumer

:07:10. > :07:13.support this measure is, more than 70% of them welcome the idea. It is

:07:14. > :07:19.not the first time this proposal has been considered. In 2012, Ofcom

:07:20. > :07:23.considered introducing regulations but could not overcome the

:07:24. > :07:28.objections of providers who argued it would be too costly. In fact, the

:07:29. > :07:36.lack of regulation is what has proved too costly, for struggling

:07:37. > :07:40.consumers. There are mobile phone providers who do provide this now.

:07:41. > :07:46.The government says it wants to help those who are just about managing.

:07:47. > :07:47.If they fail to put in this new clause, it will show they are not

:07:48. > :07:56.serious. Can I strongly support this proposal

:07:57. > :08:01.and this clause? I have had considering contact me specifically

:08:02. > :08:07.on this point. The complexity of the characters and the lack of knowledge

:08:08. > :08:11.of what actually makes art the information of the cast is huge and

:08:12. > :08:17.one consumers. This would be a major step forward for them. I welcome his

:08:18. > :08:23.intervention in support of our proposal for cats on mobile phone

:08:24. > :08:32.bills and so that I don't exceed mine at the moment, I will hang up.

:08:33. > :08:35.-- caps. It is a great pleasure to follow the honourable member the

:08:36. > :08:39.Cardiff West and I share his regret that it is not possible to address

:08:40. > :08:42.in this bill online abuse. I hope the Minister will show the

:08:43. > :08:49.Government was like divination on this issue, which they have

:08:50. > :08:54.regularly on response to other measures. I noted particularly the

:08:55. > :08:57.Minister's response to my intervention on codes of practice

:08:58. > :09:02.is. He is right to say that the industry has been able to move and

:09:03. > :09:06.move very swiftly and very effectively when it comes to issues

:09:07. > :09:12.around terrorism and child abuse. I think issues more broadly on abuse

:09:13. > :09:15.are just as worthy is their attention and I had the clear that

:09:16. > :09:26.the gunmen's priority in this area to make sure the industry really

:09:27. > :09:30.does act to stop -- Government. I think the Minister should get a

:09:31. > :09:36.grade a medal for growing scope to the bill very tightly. Many issues

:09:37. > :09:39.that many of us wouldn't want to draw have not been covered in this

:09:40. > :09:46.but it does not mean they are any less important. I really welcome the

:09:47. > :09:52.Government's new clause 28 and 29 in terms of access and age verification

:09:53. > :09:58.not being robust. I think it does show the intention of the Government

:09:59. > :10:05.and they have really done well to reflect the intentions of my

:10:06. > :10:13.honourable friend. And devising new clause one. I think this does show a

:10:14. > :10:17.will and an action and energy from the governments to try and clean up

:10:18. > :10:26.the intranet said savour the children to use. My amendments,

:10:27. > :10:29.27-34, really are to try and question whether the Government

:10:30. > :10:37.could have gone further in this, albeit I acknowledge that the

:10:38. > :10:42.Government is very much as -- adhering to our vigilance at the

:10:43. > :10:45.general election. We have heard from the minister at length and I

:10:46. > :10:53.listened very carefully, particularly at to his response to

:10:54. > :11:00.my hat amendments and, with his usual wit, he did so. People can be

:11:01. > :11:07.very at odds with this part happy with it. He is very often telling us

:11:08. > :11:11.in the dispatch box about what being illegal off-line is illegal online

:11:12. > :11:15.as well but it is illegal for children under the age of 18 to view

:11:16. > :11:26.adult material, not pornography. Adult material is more broadly

:11:27. > :11:31.known, as he knows, I am certain, it's more broadly drawn than

:11:32. > :11:34.pornography. It is at this very trusted boot on a Dell something

:11:35. > :11:42.makes a difference where their blood money to be a difference made. She

:11:43. > :11:45.says it is illegal for children to view adult material but she will be

:11:46. > :11:49.aware that that amount of adult material broadcast on our national

:11:50. > :11:52.broadcasters after the watershed 10pm and that is not actually

:11:53. > :12:06.illegal for children to watch. It may be undesirable. How do she

:12:07. > :12:09.propose to deal with the DTI player -- BBC iPlayer and other OnDemand

:12:10. > :12:18.systems which broadcast this material? This is true. They can use

:12:19. > :12:24.a notional watershed, albeit it is not clearly not the case then it

:12:25. > :12:28.comes to either player. -- BBC iPlayer. I will, unlike you to my

:12:29. > :12:33.remarks in technology that is really on our side and technology is giving

:12:34. > :12:36.us the sort of opportunity that I think he would welcome to make sure

:12:37. > :12:44.that children are not feeling things which we set out in this place as

:12:45. > :12:49.inappropriate. I just gently urge the Minister, when he looks at my

:12:50. > :12:57.amendments, to think perhaps how he might be able to race in any future.

:12:58. > :13:01.-- embrace them. The law is clear that adult material not just meaning

:13:02. > :13:07.bobble graffiti and I think, in response -- pornography. In response

:13:08. > :13:13.to the Secretary of State, that is the point I am making. Whether it is

:13:14. > :13:20.extreme violence, whether it is beheadings, sadomasochism all of

:13:21. > :13:24.these sort of behaviour will be deemed as being adult related yet,

:13:25. > :13:30.for reasons which I am unclear of, is being excluded from this bill.

:13:31. > :13:35.Perhaps the Minister can just give me a bit more information as to why

:13:36. > :13:37.he has decided to do that and perhaps what encouragement they can

:13:38. > :13:42.give me for the future that those will be dealt with because I

:13:43. > :13:45.actually took the time to talk to some children in my constituency

:13:46. > :13:49.about this, about the things they came across on the Internet and a

:13:50. > :13:53.group of them talked to me about when they have been viewing very

:13:54. > :13:58.age-appropriate material, I think it was actually pictures of small

:13:59. > :14:02.kitchens, they then popped up at the end of its material which frightened

:14:03. > :14:07.them. Frightened them to their core and ease their young children. They

:14:08. > :14:14.were not out looking for it, it just pops up. Of course, they may already

:14:15. > :14:18.have restrictions and parental controls in place that may catch

:14:19. > :14:23.this one surely be Minister has an opportunity to make sure that even

:14:24. > :14:30.organisations like Facebook or YouTube, rather than Facebook, are

:14:31. > :14:34.being more careful than the sort -- about the sort of advertisements

:14:35. > :14:39.being linked to child related dual. I think that is an important point

:14:40. > :14:46.for him to consider further in the context of my amendments. Ofcom has

:14:47. > :14:50.already got a great deal of work in this area and I know that the

:14:51. > :14:55.Minister will be well and truly aware of that. They tell us that it

:14:56. > :14:59.is a significant problem. This year, we are told that one in ten under

:15:00. > :15:05.11th have seen something online which is, "Nasa the offence of

:15:06. > :15:11.green" and we know that two thirds of young people should be more to

:15:12. > :15:23.protect them. -- Natalie, offensive or worrying. The role of the BBFC is

:15:24. > :15:28.to control harmful content from getting to children. We know it

:15:29. > :15:32.happens. We protect them in the seminar. In one of the major

:15:33. > :15:40.uncontrolled environments. -- cinema. In one of the most

:15:41. > :15:44.uncontrolled environments, online, we know it is difficult for them to

:15:45. > :15:49.be controlled. The amendment I'm putting forward would help draw

:15:50. > :15:53.these restrictions and potentially the blocking of websites more

:15:54. > :15:58.broadly if proper age verification procedures were not put in place and

:15:59. > :16:08.I believe the worthy of the governments to consider this

:16:09. > :16:13.further. -- the Government. Looking at common media standards for five

:16:14. > :16:16.years ago, the Minister, in his summing up, can he update the house

:16:17. > :16:20.on the progress being made in this area? Also, perhaps he can explain

:16:21. > :16:28.how the new regulator will balance its narrow responsibilities online

:16:29. > :16:34.to look surly at pornography with the organisation's broader remit

:16:35. > :16:40.offline in terms of looking at adult related material. Organisations like

:16:41. > :16:45.ChildLine, they will deal with the aftermath of young people looking at

:16:46. > :16:54.more broadly defined adult material online. Particularly in videos in

:16:55. > :16:59.terms of extreme torture, violence and particularly upsetting

:17:00. > :17:09.beheadings. Having the full support of the end S PCC, we have... Content

:17:10. > :17:12.which would require an 18 certificate if it was in a film or a

:17:13. > :17:18.video game would also be subjected to a ten verification system. We

:17:19. > :17:23.know the technology now exists. We have the most incredible IT sector

:17:24. > :17:31.in this country and they have already invented ways where they can

:17:32. > :17:40.verify age in an unauthorised way online. Particularly using passport

:17:41. > :17:45.data and biometrics. There are facial recognition apps linked to

:17:46. > :17:49.passports to anonymously make sure that individuals are the age they

:17:50. > :17:53.say they are. These things exist. Parliament does not need to invent

:17:54. > :18:04.them, they are there. Excepting that over 80 materials should be not

:18:05. > :18:08.viewed by children -- over 18. Does not remove freedom of speech because

:18:09. > :18:12.they insist on it off-line. It does add to business. It is a costly

:18:13. > :18:15.except for online businesses, off-line businesses and I believe we

:18:16. > :18:20.should accept it for off-line businesses do. -- online businesses,

:18:21. > :18:32.too. Fundamental rights and freedoms of all this been subject to limits

:18:33. > :18:38.of what is within the law and the laws should apply online the same as

:18:39. > :18:44.they do off-line. People who choose to disobey the law should be subject

:18:45. > :18:50.to the same circumstances as those who do off-line. I just wanted John

:18:51. > :18:56.a couple of other amendments. New clause three, in the name of the

:18:57. > :19:02.honourable lady, is talking about personal accounts, removing an event

:19:03. > :19:07.-- removing anonymity on the Internet. I support these measures

:19:08. > :19:10.but I think it would be just as important for non-commercial sites

:19:11. > :19:14.as commercial sites to adopt a measure like that. I believe this is

:19:15. > :19:22.perhaps a bill for that change to happen. New clause ten, which the

:19:23. > :19:28.honourable gentleman record of Western thought at in the wings in

:19:29. > :19:33.his opening remarks, as I said in my intervention, I have sympathy for

:19:34. > :19:45.the body is making. The truth is, -- the point he is making. There is

:19:46. > :19:48.very outdated -- it is very outdated when you look at sex education. Not

:19:49. > :19:53.updating the Internet but almost. The way in which pornography is

:19:54. > :19:59.driving people's understanding of relationships in a way that none of

:20:00. > :20:03.us feel very comfortable about. I didn't believe this bill, really, is

:20:04. > :20:08.the proper legal for him to achieve the objectives he has set out

:20:09. > :20:11.because I think he may well end up with a distortion in the way people

:20:12. > :20:15.might think we have addressed this issue through his amendment, which

:20:16. > :20:19.we wouldn't have the his amendment simply deals with the issue of

:20:20. > :20:28.online biography when I think he might agree with me, particularly,

:20:29. > :20:31.if he had met my -- read my statement about schools. The

:20:32. > :20:35.improvement of the sex education in schools have to be drawn much more

:20:36. > :20:39.widely than Internet alone. I have even gives me for not supporting

:20:40. > :20:43.this very narrowly drawn amendment today there I understand his

:20:44. > :20:47.response to me that he said he didn't have any choice given nice

:20:48. > :20:54.guy. He is right. I urge the Minister to consider perhaps some

:20:55. > :20:57.stronger undertakings in the words he gave to May and his opening

:20:58. > :21:02.statement about the importance of preventing children from viewing

:21:03. > :21:05.adult material in a broader sense, rather than a more narrow sense that

:21:06. > :21:11.they covenant has chosen to focus on. He does have a personal

:21:12. > :21:15.responsibility hair to children who use the Internet Day in, day out and

:21:16. > :21:19.we need to make sure that they take place. He has done more than any

:21:20. > :21:25.other minister in his place today in making this Internet a safer place

:21:26. > :21:32.for children like mine, like his, but he needs to do more and can he

:21:33. > :21:38.please do more? Can I just say, I have a very high number of members

:21:39. > :21:42.who want to catch these eager's I as we finish at 6:47pm so, can be

:21:43. > :21:48.bought the their remarks very brief and we will get to everyone. Thank

:21:49. > :21:55.you. I will try to comply with your instructions. Could I say, it's a

:21:56. > :22:02.very great pleasure to follow the honourable lady for Basingstoke. She

:22:03. > :22:08.made a very powerful case for her amendments and she has certainly got

:22:09. > :22:12.my support. I do want to, and I will try to, debrief with this. I want to

:22:13. > :22:24.cover a very narrow and esoteric art of the bill. In doing so, because

:22:25. > :22:26.the virgin media company has a working environment in my

:22:27. > :22:32.constituency. A workplace in my constituency which employs 250

:22:33. > :22:37.people. They have a particular concern which I'm going to take the

:22:38. > :22:44.liberty of connecting to new clause 24 because it's about what happens

:22:45. > :22:49.before new clause 27 sorry. -- new clause 27 sorry. Before that can

:22:50. > :22:58.take place. I am not actually arguing against new clause 27. New

:22:59. > :23:01.course 27 provides for individuals with the option of a voucher scheme

:23:02. > :23:06.that empowers them to take up an alternative solution. It also works

:23:07. > :23:08.on the presumption that there's individuals are likely to choose the

:23:09. > :23:13.standard universal service order offering.

:23:14. > :23:21.I think that is a fair summary of what is involved. But what happens

:23:22. > :23:28.in order for that to be successful? There needs to be coverage to enable

:23:29. > :23:34.people to be able to opt for one or the other. I think there is a real

:23:35. > :23:39.problem which I am not sure that the bill resolves, about some of the

:23:40. > :23:47.obstacles in the way of that actually happening. Virgin media

:23:48. > :23:51.say, their argument is that communication providers showed in

:23:52. > :24:00.effect be treated the same as utility companies when it comes to

:24:01. > :24:05.being granted access writes from property owners to deploy their

:24:06. > :24:09.infrastructure on their land. They talk of broadband as a fourth

:24:10. > :24:17.utility, which generally speaking is the case. But the code reforming the

:24:18. > :24:24.bell is a halfway house. The reforms envisaged mean that water companies

:24:25. > :24:31.would face drawbacks and water companies don't. And thus, high

:24:32. > :24:39.deployment costs. The first drawback is that communication operators have

:24:40. > :24:44.to pay a rent for assessing access to land -- for accessing land. Water

:24:45. > :24:50.companies only have to compensate landowners for loss of value. Water

:24:51. > :24:54.companies have a right to net of compensation they pay with increase

:24:55. > :24:59.in value from the land resulting from the fact that sewage is in

:25:00. > :25:02.place. Communications operators although not carrying sewage,

:25:03. > :25:10.although in some cases that may seem to be the case, of a different kind,

:25:11. > :25:16.whereas communication companies won't. The third point is that water

:25:17. > :25:22.companies notify landowners of their intention to deploy, which means

:25:23. > :25:29.only 42 days notice. The medication is operators have to negotiate

:25:30. > :25:32.access with landowners and -- communications operators. The

:25:33. > :25:38.landowners often have no incentive to granted. That adds to the cost. I

:25:39. > :25:43.did say I would return to the issue of costs and as I moved towards the

:25:44. > :25:53.end of my speech, I will say word about that. Well my friend give way?

:25:54. > :25:57.I will. I have great empathy with what he says. We talk glibly about

:25:58. > :26:02.access to telephony about being a human rights and out country.

:26:03. > :26:10.Obviously, we need water to live, but in terms of modern life, this

:26:11. > :26:15.telephony is a necessity. 40% of this bill is contained in schedule

:26:16. > :26:19.one which deals with issues relating to those raised by my honourable

:26:20. > :26:23.friend that it is a missed opportunity in relation to the

:26:24. > :26:28.particular issue my friend raises. I am grateful to my honourable friend

:26:29. > :26:35.for pointing that out. I went through schedule one earlier today

:26:36. > :26:41.and having done so I wasn't Denny Wise about what relevance it had to

:26:42. > :26:51.the argument I am making. -- I wasn't any wise. He has an eye for

:26:52. > :26:58.the fine detail of legislation and he spotted that in less time than it

:26:59. > :27:09.took me. As regards the costs, according to virgin media, it costs

:27:10. > :27:20.150% more for them to put in the infrastructure than it does it want

:27:21. > :27:27.the company. -- a water company. As regards electricity, it costs 66%

:27:28. > :27:34.more for a communications service provider to put in the

:27:35. > :27:40.infrastructure. And so, and I don't want to steal the honourable

:27:41. > :27:48.member's for Eric share and Roxburgh and sell Berg -- Roxburgh and

:27:49. > :27:56.Selkirk, I don't want to seal his thunder, and I condemn him roundly

:27:57. > :28:01.for not using new clause 27 as an opportunity to resolve this problem,

:28:02. > :28:05.that is not a criticism really, but I would ask the Minister before he

:28:06. > :28:12.gets to the House of Lords, to consider this issue. I do have a

:28:13. > :28:17.handy amendment available if he wants one, if not, I will try to

:28:18. > :28:23.persuade somebody in another place to table it to be more thoroughly

:28:24. > :28:27.debated there. As the House will know, I welcome

:28:28. > :28:32.part three of the Digital Economy Bill at the second reading that

:28:33. > :28:37.mentioned at that point as did many other members, the question of

:28:38. > :28:41.enforcement. We looked, and that point, and the possibility of

:28:42. > :28:46.Internet service providers being asked to block sites which

:28:47. > :28:49.discovered regarded the government's recommendations for age

:28:50. > :28:54.verification. I have raised a series of amendments giving the committee

:28:55. > :28:58.stage of this bill and I disagree with the front bench opposite. The

:28:59. > :29:11.ministers were in listening mode and they were keen to

:29:12. > :29:14.deliver on their manifesto. Against this backdrop, I'm delighted to be

:29:15. > :29:16.coming back at reports dated to welcome new clause 28 and also

:29:17. > :29:19.government amendments 35-42 which addresses critical concern. It was

:29:20. > :29:24.the case that the government had argued for a long time that it was

:29:25. > :29:26.disproportionate to make a provision for statutory IP blocking because

:29:27. > :29:32.this had been dealt with on a voluntary basis in relation to child

:29:33. > :29:37.pornography. We are aware of the work done by the Internet watchers

:29:38. > :29:42.foundation and also in reference to terrorist material. There was a hope

:29:43. > :29:46.that IP providers would get involved in blocking sites without age

:29:47. > :29:51.verification checks on a voluntary basis. But many members have

:29:52. > :29:56.campaigned for years to see a voluntary provision of that sort

:29:57. > :30:01.with Internet service providers in terms of introducing family friendly

:30:02. > :30:04.filters where we have let the world, working across industry and

:30:05. > :30:12.government in a very sensible set of provisions where we now have online

:30:13. > :30:16.filters that are produced automatically by ISPs and in other

:30:17. > :30:22.cases voluntarily, and seem to be working well. But there are problems

:30:23. > :30:30.with the voluntary approach, and not just my concerns. Bodies like the

:30:31. > :30:35.children's charities coalition of Internet safety, the NSP CC, the

:30:36. > :30:41.BBFC, the digital policy Alliance, they were concerned that this

:30:42. > :30:48.sensible provision of age revocation would not stick unless there was a

:30:49. > :30:54.more robust in for the regime. I am delighted that the cause I

:30:55. > :30:57.originated has been designed by various political parties which

:30:58. > :31:03.demonstrates that our best work is done when will work together on

:31:04. > :31:08.these Baikal issues. It is a testament to the power -- these

:31:09. > :31:12.vitally important issues. It is a testament to this place. We only

:31:13. > :31:17.have to look at our Twitter feeds, and other parts of the Internet, to

:31:18. > :31:20.see how difficult these conversations are because they get

:31:21. > :31:26.to the heart of the regulation of the Internet which grew up in a

:31:27. > :31:31.regulation free environment. That has been part of its growth and

:31:32. > :31:37.glory. It gets to this point that we asking governments and companies to

:31:38. > :31:47.restrict legal material for adults? I would argue very strongly that

:31:48. > :31:53.this is not about censorship, or restriction, about proving -- it is

:31:54. > :31:58.about proving that people who access it over the age of 18. It is

:31:59. > :32:02.encouraging socially responsible behaviour which has happened in

:32:03. > :32:14.other areas, the fact that adult content sits behind personal

:32:15. > :32:21.identification numbers. There is also an argument that the argument

:32:22. > :32:26.in relation to terrorist material is not relevant. There is a strong

:32:27. > :32:30.global consensus that neither upon Griffey nor terrorist material

:32:31. > :32:35.should be tolerated so there is no need for statutory compulsion. The

:32:36. > :32:42.content we are talking about here is sites that are providing material

:32:43. > :32:48.defined as pornographic as opposed to material wishes legal for adults

:32:49. > :32:54.to access and reasonable for adults to access. This is not an

:32:55. > :32:59.anti-pornography crusade. It is unsurprising that the ISPs made it

:33:00. > :33:03.clear that they would not block pornographic sites without these

:33:04. > :33:07.statutory age verification checks. In evidence given to the Select

:33:08. > :33:15.Committee in another place on the 25th of October, it was said that

:33:16. > :33:21.the if there was a desire for ISPs to block those sites, regulation --

:33:22. > :33:25.legislation was required. They would struggle unless they are compelled

:33:26. > :33:30.to, not because they don't want to, but because they would probably be

:33:31. > :33:38.breaking the law. Ofcom gave the committee a similar message, saying

:33:39. > :33:41.that if they did it, it really similar basis. We have heard about

:33:42. > :33:44.the legal difficulties they would face if they were to undertake this

:33:45. > :33:50.phone to blocking because it would race so many issues relating to net

:33:51. > :33:54.neutrality. The second matter that has been

:33:55. > :33:58.widely raised is that there is overwhelming support for these age

:33:59. > :34:03.revocation measures to be introduced in a robust way by the majority of

:34:04. > :34:08.the British public. Eight out of ten people support this manifesto

:34:09. > :34:12.commitment and want it to work. The BBFC, or the Minister has chosen the

:34:13. > :34:18.media regulator, all of us absolutely support them as a trusted

:34:19. > :34:23.brand in this space. It is not me or anyone else who is deciding what is

:34:24. > :34:28.over 18 material, it is based on the BBFC's tried and tested guidelines.

:34:29. > :34:38.They themselves said it was a power they needed -- that they needed to

:34:39. > :34:44.carry out the work of the regulator. She said this was consistent with

:34:45. > :34:49.the regulator uses already but my point is that this is not. Their

:34:50. > :34:54.powers are far more broadly drawn with regards to and of material over

:34:55. > :35:01.and above simply pornography. And I do have great sympathy for the

:35:02. > :35:07.clauses and amendments the lady has tabled and she is right to keep

:35:08. > :35:11.pushing. Given that we have defined both the manifesto commitment and

:35:12. > :35:16.the bill tightly, I wanted to achieve that first before we moved

:35:17. > :35:20.to broader definitions. She is well aware that throws up many more

:35:21. > :35:24.questions about the scope of regulation in this area. We both

:35:25. > :35:28.know that in this space, there is a great desire to make the perfect the

:35:29. > :35:34.enemy of the good. Almost any advance we have made in this space

:35:35. > :35:40.has not been absolutely perfect but we think this is a process of

:35:41. > :35:47.iterative steps forward and this government is doing a great job. The

:35:48. > :35:52.final argument for making this blocking on a statutory basis is

:35:53. > :35:56.that there is a precedent in the case of copyright infringement. It

:35:57. > :36:01.seems perverse to the House on one hand to be arguing that it was legal

:36:02. > :36:06.to block sites, to instruct blocking sites that infringe copyright but

:36:07. > :36:10.not those that infringed a legal requirement for age revocation. It

:36:11. > :36:13.would be quite wrong for us to suggest that child protection is

:36:14. > :36:19.less important than protecting the interests of commercial businesses.

:36:20. > :36:24.Two other points to make about why the case is so compelling. The BBFC

:36:25. > :36:27.have said they will be focusing primarily on offshore sites which

:36:28. > :36:34.are the main source of much of this material. The difficulty of

:36:35. > :36:38.enforcing fines outside the jurisdiction will be difficult.

:36:39. > :36:42.Secondly, we know that many sides are not reliant on purely financial

:36:43. > :36:47.transactions coming through the sites discussed in the bill, there

:36:48. > :36:54.are bits: and other forms of remuneration which are not relevant.

:36:55. > :37:02.-- bitcoin. I'm delighted that the government has reduced -- introduced

:37:03. > :37:07.this amendment. I will support the government's changes wholeheartedly.

:37:08. > :37:12.I want to probe the Minister. Who will actually be in forcing the

:37:13. > :37:16.bill? My understanding from reading through the enforcement powers is

:37:17. > :37:21.that the BVA -- BBFC does not have the info from hours as required

:37:22. > :37:26.under this new clause and many of us assume that Ofcom would be the

:37:27. > :37:36.enforcer of choice as had been suggested explicitly. So it would be

:37:37. > :37:41.-- we would be came to a year who will be enforcing because we know

:37:42. > :37:47.that without robust enforcement, there will be very little incentive

:37:48. > :37:50.for websites to use age verification. The whole house will

:37:51. > :37:56.support us in saying we want this to be a great success. I will finish by

:37:57. > :38:00.very sincerely thanking the honourable members who have

:38:01. > :38:06.campaigned so tirelessly in this House and in the other place,

:38:07. > :38:10.including my honourable friend for Enfield, for Congleton, and the

:38:11. > :38:18.member for Bishop Auckland and a wonderful member who is no longer in

:38:19. > :38:21.place, and the new members who are new and one who represents the

:38:22. > :38:26.Borders his constituency is too long to spell out and my honourable

:38:27. > :38:30.friend the member for Hampshire. I conclude.

:38:31. > :38:36.I stand to put forward new clause 22 and 27. Both ever which I don't

:38:37. > :38:40.think the minister referred to, unless I slept through that, but I

:38:41. > :38:44.hang on his every word normally, so I'm sure that wasn't the case.

:38:45. > :38:50.Before I do, I would like to touch on a couple of other new clauses.

:38:51. > :38:54.It's a pleasure to follow the right honourable member for Devizes. Many

:38:55. > :38:57.colleagues in this House have campaigned hard in this area. The

:38:58. > :39:02.Government's move on new clause 20 is welcome. Though I would quickly

:39:03. > :39:05.recount a story, when I was on the bill committee, I phoned home one

:39:06. > :39:10.night and of course, my wife said, what have you been up to today? I

:39:11. > :39:15.explained about access to underage pornography. Funnily enough I came

:39:16. > :39:19.home today from work and found Robert, who's seven years old,

:39:20. > :39:23.looking at inappropriate content and my heart sunk. She said, he was

:39:24. > :39:26.watching the third presidential debate.

:39:27. > :39:30.LAUGHTER I can see where she was coming from.

:39:31. > :39:34.She said Robert, do you know what you're watching here? Yes, I do. Why

:39:35. > :39:41.are you watching that? Because it's important. I have a friend at school

:39:42. > :39:44.called Donald, he said. I think this brings me onto the concerns that the

:39:45. > :39:49.honourable member for Cardiff west raised. I think we would share,

:39:50. > :39:55.which is as we proceed down this route, it's very important that

:39:56. > :40:01.these powers are a last resort, that they don't stop access to sites that

:40:02. > :40:05.are unintended. As a result we proceed with care. That we take

:40:06. > :40:12.sufficient time tloock at the em-- to look at the implications, that we

:40:13. > :40:17.seek to avoid unintended consequences for ISPs and websites,

:40:18. > :40:22.whilst still developing a robust set of measures that stop young Robert

:40:23. > :40:30.accessing the content we want him to avoid. It was mentioned earlier, the

:40:31. > :40:36.importance of the method of verification and the tool yoti I

:40:37. > :40:43.think is how it's pronouned. I like yoti a Lottie, because what it means

:40:44. > :40:47.is that databases are not built of what people are accessing and

:40:48. > :40:50.individuals are protected. I commend the Labour frontbench for some of

:40:51. > :40:58.their efforts to push this further. I will quickly touch on two areas

:40:59. > :41:01.before going on to my new clauses. New clause seven, I'm surprised by

:41:02. > :41:06.the minister's approach by mobile phone contracts. If he went and

:41:07. > :41:10.consulted Ofcom they would tell them they are highly supportive of such a

:41:11. > :41:15.measure, such as a maximum bill level. It seems eminently sensible

:41:16. > :41:20.that when you sign up for a contract, the question is asked -

:41:21. > :41:24.would you like to set a maximum amount. I don't know why the

:41:25. > :41:27.Government would block. This I fully expect to revisit this some time

:41:28. > :41:34.soon. I would ask the minister to check some of the wording in terms

:41:35. > :41:39.of the ES sites which he said would be available to all providers. That

:41:40. > :41:45.is not my understanding. The ESN is provided both by E ever and

:41:46. > :41:49.themselves, but also by EAN sites, extended area network sites and they

:41:50. > :41:54.are the extra sites that will be multiplatform. They are only part of

:41:55. > :41:57.how they will provide the service. Perhaps he would revisit and

:41:58. > :42:03.consider what he said there. My honourable friend with the equally

:42:04. > :42:08.long constituency name of Inverness, barren... Worried that he wouldn't

:42:09. > :42:15.get to speak. I will mention new clause 20, which seeks to provide

:42:16. > :42:20.the ability, in fact, very similar to the new clause 25 that a

:42:21. > :42:24.constituent can't cancel a contract if they do not have service. Which

:42:25. > :42:31.seems to me a perfectly - I'll happily give way. I'm grateful. Does

:42:32. > :42:34.my honourable friend agree with me, in circumstances where a consumer is

:42:35. > :42:41.not able to get what they have paid for, and for example, I had

:42:42. > :42:45.consumers who had to wait over four months to be reconnected to their

:42:46. > :42:48.mobile signal and threatened with a ?200 cancellation fee, that is

:42:49. > :42:52.flatly unacceptable. They should have an option to get out of these

:42:53. > :42:57.contracts. I whole hearted lay grow with that excellent point. It

:42:58. > :43:01.strikes me that this is another common sense measure that should be

:43:02. > :43:06.taken. On top of this, I welcome some of the other comments about

:43:07. > :43:10.linking it to autocompensation. It should be a case of either

:43:11. > :43:15.cancelling a contract, yes, I will give way. A further point, I'm

:43:16. > :43:18.grateful for his giving way. Is my honourable friend surprised like I

:43:19. > :43:22.am, or perhaps I shouldn't be surprised that the minister has

:43:23. > :43:26.refused to take, this given that his predecessor said to me that the

:43:27. > :43:29.suggestion you make that mobile customers ought to be able to leave

:43:30. > :43:33.their contract, if a service is unacceptable is a good one. Mobile

:43:34. > :43:39.customers should not be trapped in contracts if they have no effective

:43:40. > :43:44.signal and no useable service. I thank my honourable friend for that

:43:45. > :43:49.extra clarification. It's why we entered the bill committee with a

:43:50. > :43:54.spirit of naive optimism that our sensible clauses may yet be taken.

:43:55. > :44:04.How we learned. Indeed. Madam Deputy Speaker. I will move to my new

:44:05. > :44:09.clauses, 22 first of all, which put forward a proposal, a set of wording

:44:10. > :44:13.to ensure that there was an explicit power for structural separation of

:44:14. > :44:19.BT open reach, should that be deemed necessary. Now we in this place know

:44:20. > :44:24.how critically important connectivity is. I'm sure members

:44:25. > :44:28.and honourable members and right honourable members welcome the DCR

:44:29. > :44:31.from Ofcom as I did. I actually support the line that they are

:44:32. > :44:36.taking, which is to take a fairly strong line in terms of the measures

:44:37. > :44:40.that BT should take in terms of access to ducts and poles and to

:44:41. > :44:45.making a planning tool and everything more readily available.

:44:46. > :44:48.But retaining the measure that structural separation remains an

:44:49. > :44:52.option and indeed this was something the Secretary of State confirmed in

:44:53. > :44:57.the second reading. So if that is truly to be an option on the table,

:44:58. > :45:00.it's essential that Ofcom is confident that it can enforce

:45:01. > :45:07.structural separation if it concludes it is necessary. What is

:45:08. > :45:13.then the current situation? Ofcom considers today that it has the

:45:14. > :45:17.power under the EU framework directive to impose structural

:45:18. > :45:22.separation. Now clearly, though, taking such a case to the EU

:45:23. > :45:26.Commission at a time when Brexit means Brexit is fraught with

:45:27. > :45:32.difficulty, especially when you consider that the high likelihood

:45:33. > :45:40.would be that BT would appeal any such move. It's also worth noting

:45:41. > :45:44.that BT has stated publicly that it believes that it's no mechanism for

:45:45. > :45:52.structural separations of a telecoms company. It's even threatened ten

:45:53. > :45:56.years of litigation and arguments. Now the digital economy bill offers

:45:57. > :46:01.a simple way to remove ambiguity around this issue. That's what this

:46:02. > :46:04.clause aims to do. Now unfortunately, with the process of

:46:05. > :46:09.the House, I have only one vote I can push in this section. So we will

:46:10. > :46:13.not be pushing this one to a vote much as I would like to. I would

:46:14. > :46:17.encourage the minister to revisit this and add it in as a measure,

:46:18. > :46:22.even though I personally still believe the Ofcom strategy is right

:46:23. > :46:26.and that separation is only the correct route if combined with

:46:27. > :46:30.something else, such as a significant investment plan into

:46:31. > :46:37.Open Reach from other providers currently making a lot of noise.

:46:38. > :46:48.Finally, I'll address new clause 27. That is for the introduction of our

:46:49. > :46:53.Broadband voucher sceech as an altern to the provision. We all

:46:54. > :46:57.welcome I'm sure anything that improves connectivity. I have huge

:46:58. > :47:03.reservations about the approach being taken here. I appreciate as

:47:04. > :47:08.the Government outlined in supplementary papers during the

:47:09. > :47:14.bill's process, there say flexible design to the USO from download

:47:15. > :47:20.speed, upload speed, lay tensy and other aspects, but much of this is

:47:21. > :47:25.undecided and though I would disagree fundamentally with the ten

:47:26. > :47:29.mgs starting point what really concerns me is the use of a

:47:30. > :47:33.universal service order. By pursuing this route, it pushes the Government

:47:34. > :47:40.down a prescriptive process that it has to follow. That will lead to a

:47:41. > :47:44.provider being selected or maybe a couple of providers selected, it

:47:45. > :47:52.looks highly likely, I think we all know, it's likely to be BT, and I

:47:53. > :47:57.think Sharon White before the DCMS committee confirmed BT is in pole

:47:58. > :48:00.position. I'll give way. Very grateful. He's making an excellent

:48:01. > :48:03.point. Does he agrow with me that the people who need the service,

:48:04. > :48:07.that people should be able to choose the best option for them and in

:48:08. > :48:10.fact, one size doesn't fit all when it comes to the rural areas. I

:48:11. > :48:16.absolutely do agree with my honourable friend. I will come on to

:48:17. > :48:22.that points. I would actually contrast the USO with last week's

:48:23. > :48:25.announcements. We've heard from the Government that this is the future.

:48:26. > :48:29.We have heard that our record in this country on fibre to the home or

:48:30. > :48:35.fibre to the premises is pretty woeful. We saw the Broadband

:48:36. > :48:38.investment fund announced in the previous Budget get money put into

:48:39. > :48:45.it, which is welcome. Hundreds of millions were committed to 5G trials

:48:46. > :48:50.and fibre back bone. All of which is welcome. What we didn't see is

:48:51. > :48:59.anything specifically for rural. Now, we are actually now looking at

:49:00. > :49:07.a situation where we are talking about a fibre gigabyte in urban

:49:08. > :49:13.areas and tell rural areas to settle for ten megs. This isn't closing the

:49:14. > :49:19.din tall divide. It's turning it into a gaping chasm. A USO badly

:49:20. > :49:26.implemented won't fix the issue, but might through legislation cement in

:49:27. > :49:30.this digital divide. My new clause aims to address this issue. From the

:49:31. > :49:35.start, as I've looked at potential solutions here, the one that I kept

:49:36. > :49:40.coming back to was a voucher alternative. I heard the world

:49:41. > :49:47.Broadband forum, it was a phrase from a representative from Inca, if

:49:48. > :49:52.we do a voucher scheme we turn a universal service obligation into a

:49:53. > :49:56.universal service opportunity. We all know in our constituencies, we

:49:57. > :50:01.have highly motivated groups of people who will yes, OK, maybe on

:50:02. > :50:05.day one be happy with ten meg, if you've been living with one, it

:50:06. > :50:14.would be transformational, who will quickly see that they are being left

:50:15. > :50:18.behind and will be very unhappy. This bill is not specific when this

:50:19. > :50:28.will be revisited and they will be left further and further behind.

:50:29. > :50:35.This idea of a voucher scheme was endorsed by Inca's chairman who

:50:36. > :50:40.said, "The principle of a universal service obligation, is an outdated

:50:41. > :50:44.concept in a sector focussed on growth and could translate into a

:50:45. > :50:47.ceiling. A voucher scheme for premises could be far more

:50:48. > :50:53.effective." I urge the Government, the minister did not address this in

:50:54. > :50:58.his opening remarks, to please embrace this option of a voucher

:50:59. > :51:03.alternative to empower our rural communities, who I know in my own

:51:04. > :51:08.community they want to go further. They understand technology. They

:51:09. > :51:13.will put in fibre to the home. They will provide much faster solution.

:51:14. > :51:20.It's not a one size fits all. I'll happily give way. I did address this

:51:21. > :51:27.point and I said that the bill contains the USO, which will get

:51:28. > :51:32.high speed Broadband everywhere. And further more, Broadband voucher

:51:33. > :51:37.scheme does not require legislation, so in fact we've had one in the past

:51:38. > :51:40.without legislation. Therefore I don't think that this clause is

:51:41. > :51:44.necessary. I thank the minister for that

:51:45. > :51:51.intervention. He makes a point that I forgot to make. There is previous

:51:52. > :51:55.history here. There has been a voucher scheme, which was

:51:56. > :52:00.phenomenally successful. If the Government don't put this in the

:52:01. > :52:05.bill, I do not believe it would happen. Perhaps I've become a cynic

:52:06. > :52:13.in this place. We should push this to a vote. We should ensure - As an

:52:14. > :52:16.example of the fact that you can do this through non-legislative means,

:52:17. > :52:21.not only did we have one in the past, but at the Autumn Statement,

:52:22. > :52:24.last week, we announced that we're to consult on a new one. I think

:52:25. > :52:28.that takes care of the concerns in this new clause.

:52:29. > :52:32.I thank the minister for that positive news. But it doesn't,

:52:33. > :52:37.because what I'm seeking is a specific alternative to the USO. So

:52:38. > :52:41.that in my communities who want fieber to their home, this is a

:52:42. > :52:44.foundational voucher that sets them on a path to something far more

:52:45. > :52:48.ambitious than this Government is. The Government says fibre is the

:52:49. > :52:49.future. Guess what? My constituents want to be part of that future too.

:52:50. > :53:00.Thank you. Can I say, we have less than 15

:53:01. > :53:06.minutes and quite a few members wishing to speak. Brevity would be

:53:07. > :53:10.fantastic. John Whittingdale. Can I start by making clear that I support

:53:11. > :53:18.the provisions in the bill to acquire age verification. My name is

:53:19. > :53:26.on the front of the Bill. Can I introduce an element of caution.

:53:27. > :53:31.Unlike much of the material like hate speech or racist material or

:53:32. > :53:36.extremist encouragement or indeed copyright breaches, what we are

:53:37. > :53:40.talking about its legal content. Like it or not, the sites we are

:53:41. > :53:45.discussing are visited by millions of people every day. They are some

:53:46. > :53:52.of the most popular sites on the entire Internet. As I say, I support

:53:53. > :54:01.the idea of age verification to ensure that only those who are

:54:02. > :54:05.appropriate to view these -- this material do so. I have yet to see

:54:06. > :54:12.how age verification will work, we have seen examples of content access

:54:13. > :54:16.control systems through things like credit card, mobile phones, which

:54:17. > :54:23.have been verified as belonging to an adult. But it is going to be

:54:24. > :54:28.asking a lot for people who want to access legal content to hand over

:54:29. > :54:32.their credit card numbers to pornographic website operators. I

:54:33. > :54:36.think the honourable member for Shetland who flagged up the data

:54:37. > :54:40.protection concerns, is absolutely right. I hope Ofcom will look

:54:41. > :54:46.carefully about how these systems work. Secondly, one of the main ways

:54:47. > :54:52.in which young people are being exposed to pornography is through

:54:53. > :54:57.social media and Twitter. I don't see how this bill will stop that

:54:58. > :55:01.happening. That is not to say we should not take action against the

:55:02. > :55:07.pornographic sites. The original bill contained a number of quite

:55:08. > :55:12.significant enforcement measures, like requiring payment providers,

:55:13. > :55:19.website hosting companies, advertisers, to no longer deal with

:55:20. > :55:25.websites which had been identified as not complying with the law under

:55:26. > :55:31.this bill. And already, there are signs that the number -- a number of

:55:32. > :55:35.the big providers are going to comply. The biggest operator have

:55:36. > :55:39.said they will introduce age revocation systems although they

:55:40. > :55:48.wanted others to do so as well. So I hope it will happen. Will the

:55:49. > :55:53.gentleman give way? Forgive me, I am conscious of the Deputy Speaker's

:55:54. > :56:02.strictures. I am not convinced of the value of ISP blocking. Israel is

:56:03. > :56:06.in the significant curtailment of liberties, which people are

:56:07. > :56:10.perfectly entitled to access. And at a time when we are very concerned

:56:11. > :56:14.about the growth of censorship online and some of the countries

:56:15. > :56:20.around the world who would like to take this as a precedent to say it's

:56:21. > :56:25.fine to block content that we don't particularly like, I do think this

:56:26. > :56:29.is a dangerous road to go down. So I hope that the measures that were

:56:30. > :56:33.originally contained in the Bill will prove sufficient, that

:56:34. > :56:37.operators will introduce age verification and we will pause

:56:38. > :56:41.before going the next step and introduce ISP blocking. I rather

:56:42. > :56:47.hope that this Digital Economy Bill is like the one debated in 2010

:56:48. > :56:49.which provided for government to intervene and require ISP blocking

:56:50. > :56:58.but that measure was never introduced. Helen Goodman. I am very

:56:59. > :57:02.pleased to take part in this debate and I was pleased to sign new clause

:57:03. > :57:09.one. I am extremely pleased to have the opportunity to follow the member

:57:10. > :57:15.for Maldon. And to say how glad I am to see the new regime on the front

:57:16. > :57:18.bench who have basically accepted new clause one. I think the argument

:57:19. > :57:24.that the honourable gentleman used, that because something is legal and

:57:25. > :57:30.enjoyed by grown-ups, therefore we shouldn't have restrictions for

:57:31. > :57:39.children, is patiently absurd. It's that... I said I support age

:57:40. > :57:43.verification. The honourable gentleman said that but he said it

:57:44. > :57:50.was a difficult area and one reason for that was because people enjoy

:57:51. > :57:53.doing it. People enjoy having sex, grown-ups enjoy drinking alcohol, it

:57:54. > :57:59.doesn't mean that these things are OK for children. Anyway, my real

:58:00. > :58:10.purpose this evening is to speak to new clause 20 six. -- 26. This is an

:58:11. > :58:13.amendment with which I have had considerable help from the national

:58:14. > :58:20.deaf Children's Society in preparing. It is seeking to help to

:58:21. > :58:26.protect those with hearing loss who have hearing aid, cochlear implant,

:58:27. > :58:32.radio aids and other hearing technology to -- to protect them

:58:33. > :58:36.from interference. There is a concern that the part of spectrum

:58:37. > :58:42.that they are going to sell is so close on the wavelength to the

:58:43. > :58:48.wavelength that these technologies use that it causes interference. The

:58:49. > :58:53.new clause would place a duty on Ofcom to carry out test in advance

:58:54. > :58:59.of the sale of the radio frequencies to ensure any interference is

:59:00. > :59:06.identified and made public and appropriate action is taken. This

:59:07. > :59:11.could be in two forms. Ofcom should not grant a wireless telegraphy

:59:12. > :59:16.licence unless action is taken to remove the risk of interference, or

:59:17. > :59:23.a fund should be established to cover the cost of replacing

:59:24. > :59:29.technology affected. This is important for the 10 million people

:59:30. > :59:34.who suffer from hearing loss and the 45,000 deaf children in this

:59:35. > :59:40.country. And it enables Ofcom to fulfil its duties under the equality

:59:41. > :59:44.act. The ministry said -- the minister says that tests have been

:59:45. > :59:51.done and more tests will be done and that those tests, we will know what

:59:52. > :59:56.they come up with in April 20 17th and everything is fine. This is not

:59:57. > :00:02.the view of the national deaf Children's Society. They say that

:00:03. > :00:07.they are not confident in the way these tests are going to be carried

:00:08. > :00:12.out. They have undertaken considerable correspondence with the

:00:13. > :00:17.regulator and there are still dispute about the way the tests

:00:18. > :00:21.should be done and the interpretation of the results. And

:00:22. > :00:27.even if the test are done and the results are published, on this

:00:28. > :00:33.occasion as the minister suggested, what happens then? What if there is

:00:34. > :00:36.interference? Are we going to see that the spectrum is not auctioned

:00:37. > :00:43.off in the way that the government is intending? Are we going to see

:00:44. > :00:48.some funding for people who have to have new hearing aids? The

:00:49. > :00:54.Minister's response, I'm sorry to say, is not really adequate. This is

:00:55. > :01:00.a particular problem for children who use radio aids in the classroom

:01:01. > :01:04.to help them hear what their teachers are saying. Because unlike

:01:05. > :01:08.grown-ups, they can't so easily guess what it is the person will be

:01:09. > :01:14.saying because they are hearing things for the first time. The tests

:01:15. > :01:22.that were done in 2014 found that anybody who had the kind of mobile

:01:23. > :01:25.phones that were using the relevant frequency could interfere with the

:01:26. > :01:33.hearing aid if they were four metres away. I just want to say that I know

:01:34. > :01:38.quite a lot about hearing aids because my husband has terrible

:01:39. > :01:43.hearing and he has two. If he goes to a party, he can hardly hear what

:01:44. > :01:47.other people are saying anyway. If his hearing aids were interfered

:01:48. > :01:51.with by other people standing in the room, it would be a nightmare so I

:01:52. > :01:59.urge the Minister to be flexible and look at this again. Thank you very

:02:00. > :02:04.much. I rise to support my own clause, new clause 25 about the

:02:05. > :02:07.ability of users to cancel mobile phone contracts. Simmer the clauses

:02:08. > :02:15.put forward by other members of this House. I am grateful to the Minister

:02:16. > :02:19.on one hand for saying it will be considered in a green paper is that

:02:20. > :02:24.the business apartment will put out next year. But I want to point out

:02:25. > :02:29.that the idea of a 14 day cooling off period after you have purchased

:02:30. > :02:36.a phone is somehow sufficient for a contract that will last for two

:02:37. > :02:42.years, is completely inadequate. 60% of people now have contracts for two

:02:43. > :02:47.years. There has been a 19% increase in people having lengthy contracts

:02:48. > :02:50.in the last five or six years and is in no way negates the problem is to

:02:51. > :02:55.say that if in the first 14 days they realise they can't get a

:02:56. > :03:00.signal, they can exchange it? Is what happens if they move, what

:03:01. > :03:05.happens if work moves? They are stuck with the contracts. This

:03:06. > :03:11.problem can be solved. You need to split out the cost of the device,

:03:12. > :03:16.?800, from the cost of the mobile contract, the phone and the data

:03:17. > :03:20.elements of that. If we were to do that, the person could stay within

:03:21. > :03:24.the contract to buy the device, but could move to another operator which

:03:25. > :03:31.will provide a contract with the ability to access a phone and data

:03:32. > :03:36.signal. My point is very simple. The briefing on this is misleading. I

:03:37. > :03:40.don't believe that Ofcom are likely to do anything about this in the

:03:41. > :03:44.next year or two and I thank the Minister for his advice that it will

:03:45. > :03:49.be considered in the green paper upcoming next year because I think

:03:50. > :03:52.unless we get a bit more radical people will be forced to pay

:03:53. > :04:00.hundreds of pounds for a service they never received. I would have

:04:01. > :04:07.liked to have spoken about clause three and new clause 14 and new

:04:08. > :04:10.clause 20 one. I will restrict your new clause 13 which introduced a

:04:11. > :04:14.statutory code of practice to improve the performance of social

:04:15. > :04:18.media platforms dealing with incidents of online abuse which

:04:19. > :04:21.cross the criminal threshold. This clause would issue an obligation on

:04:22. > :04:26.the Minister to issue a code of practice which would cover the

:04:27. > :04:31.services that should be provided. Matters which are commonplace in

:04:32. > :04:35.complaints procedures already existing in the public utilities

:04:36. > :04:40.sector. The code of practice would also cover and industry's specific

:04:41. > :04:46.requirements to enforce privacy settings for minors. This would be

:04:47. > :04:52.drafted after consideration with the industry and key stakeholders.

:04:53. > :04:54.Extensive consultation with a live the bodies would guarantee a

:04:55. > :05:08.comprehensive set of guidelines. That's macro with key bodies. --

:05:09. > :05:12.with key bodies. The Minister could revise the code of practice.

:05:13. > :05:17.Technology is ever adapting and it is right and proper that legislation

:05:18. > :05:22.protecting vulnerable people from predatory and unacceptable behaviour

:05:23. > :05:27.online should be adapted to reflect the online world. Clause 13 would

:05:28. > :05:32.have allowed that. I would have talked extensively on this matter,

:05:33. > :05:38.had there been time. I now hope that the pointer would have made will be

:05:39. > :05:43.taken up in another place. I am pleased to withdraw amendment

:05:44. > :05:46.to in my name in favour of new clause 29 which addresses the

:05:47. > :05:51.loophole which might amendment sought to address and which I spoke

:05:52. > :05:55.about at second reading. I want to thank the Minister for listening and

:05:56. > :06:00.introducing new clause 20 nine. The loophole which it seeks to address

:06:01. > :06:04.is that current law already established by the Communications

:06:05. > :06:09.act 2003, covering pornographic content online in the form of video

:06:10. > :06:18.on demand, only requires age verification in relation to our 80

:06:19. > :06:22.but not 18 related material when steam -- stream from stipes within

:06:23. > :06:28.the UK. This bill without clause 29 would only have dealt with the

:06:29. > :06:35.provision of age revocation for 18 and Are 18 when streamed in the

:06:36. > :06:40.country from abroad. New clause 29 will deal with this issue. It is not

:06:41. > :06:45.appropriate for under 18 is to purchase videos which are 18 rated

:06:46. > :06:50.from a shop, and rightly so, so where the technology is available to

:06:51. > :06:56.apply similar protections online, it would be wrong not to use it. I'm

:06:57. > :07:01.grateful the Minister is infusing new clause 20 nine. Public opinion

:07:02. > :07:11.is with us on this issue. Polling on 2000 adults in July last year said

:07:12. > :07:14.that 23% that's macro 73% of people support age verification. 13%

:07:15. > :07:20.disagreed. I rise to raise concerns which have

:07:21. > :07:29.been expressed by the right honourable friend -- right

:07:30. > :07:32.honourable member for Maldon. As the parent of two teenagers myself, I

:07:33. > :07:36.completely understand the motivation of those who have brought these

:07:37. > :07:39.concerns to the government. I commend them for the way they have

:07:40. > :07:44.done it and I commend the government for responding in the way that they

:07:45. > :07:47.have. I feel that this is another occasion where the government is

:07:48. > :07:53.going to be responding because something must be done. And I fear

:07:54. > :07:58.that in fact what we are doing is going down a road which will leave

:07:59. > :08:04.is exposed to the law of unintended consequences. My primary concern is

:08:05. > :08:09.that the provisions are proposed -- the provisions proposed here will

:08:10. > :08:13.not be that effective. They will be capable of being circumvented pretty

:08:14. > :08:19.easily by any tech savvy 14-year-old. That means, where do we

:08:20. > :08:24.strike the balance between the protection offered against the risks

:08:25. > :08:29.that come with it? One of the risks that we have not touched on yet is

:08:30. > :08:33.the risk of complacency. Parents, seeing changes like this being made,

:08:34. > :08:37.will think that this problem has been sold, it has gone away and that

:08:38. > :08:39.they will no longer need to be vigilant in the way that they might

:08:40. > :08:49.have been hitherto. The real concerns are around the

:08:50. > :08:53.holding of this data. There are no provisions in the bill as it's

:08:54. > :08:58.currently drafted to secure the privacy anonymity of those who are

:08:59. > :09:02.using these sites. The minister said that the data will be held in

:09:03. > :09:09.accordance with the Data Protection Act, as we saw from the Ashley

:09:10. > :09:13.Maddison leaks that was of no great assistance. Let's not forget what

:09:14. > :09:17.exactly is at stake here. The number of people who as of a consequence of

:09:18. > :09:24.that hack and that information being put into the public domain, then

:09:25. > :09:29.committed suicide. It seems to me what we are about here is taking the

:09:30. > :09:33.symptom rather than the disease. And what would make the significant

:09:34. > :09:40.changes that we all want is better sex and relationship education.

:09:41. > :09:44.I'm sorry that the member will not get his one minute of speaking.

:09:45. > :09:48.Order, under the order of the House of earlier today I must now put the

:09:49. > :09:52.questions necessary to bring to a clon collusion proceedings --

:09:53. > :09:59.conclusions proceedings on the first group. The order be that clause 28

:10:00. > :10:04.of read a second time. I think the ayes have it. Government new clause

:10:05. > :10:10.28 be added to the bill, as many of that opinion say aye. To the

:10:11. > :10:14.contrary no. The ayes have it. I call the minister to bring new

:10:15. > :10:19.clause 29 formally. The question is that it be added to the bill. Say

:10:20. > :10:25.aye, of the contrary, no. I think the ayes have it. Move new clause

:10:26. > :10:29.ten formally. The question is that new clause ten be added to the bill.

:10:30. > :10:33.As many of that opinion say aye. To the contrary no. Division. Clear the

:10:34. > :11:58.lobby. The question is that new clause ten

:11:59. > :12:01.be added to the bill. Those of that opinion say aye. Those of the

:12:02. > :24:31.contrary no. Order! Order!

:24:32. > :24:42.The ayes to the right, 171, the noes, 278. The eyes to the right

:24:43. > :24:54.171, the nos 278. The noes have it. Armlock. I ask... The question is

:24:55. > :25:03.that amendment is 35-4 joo be made. The ayes have it. I call Calum Kerr

:25:04. > :25:14.to move the amendment formally. The question is new clause 27 the added.

:25:15. > :26:55.As many as the opinion, say I -- ayes division, clear the lobby.

:26:56. > :27:01.The question is that new clause 27 the added to the bill. As many as

:27:02. > :33:15.are of the opinion, say "aye". To the contrary, "no"..

:33:16. > :36:57.Order! Order! The ayes to the right, 221. The noes to the left, 227. The

:36:58. > :37:06.ayes to the right, 221. The nose to the -- the noes to the left, 227.

:37:07. > :37:14.The noes have it. Armlock. Minister to move government

:37:15. > :37:19.amendments 23 and 24 formally. To move formally. The question is that

:37:20. > :37:23.amendments 23 and 24 be made. As many as are of the opinion, say

:37:24. > :37:30."aye". To the contrary, "no". The ayes have it. The ayes have it. We

:37:31. > :37:36.now come to group two and two new clause six. With which it will be

:37:37. > :37:40.convenient to consider the other new clauses and amendments grouped

:37:41. > :37:45.together on the paper. Mr Kevin Brennan to move. Thank you,

:37:46. > :37:54.I move new clause six. We withdrew one amendment for the

:37:55. > :38:01.Select Committee to table it in this group. Can I move new clause six

:38:02. > :38:05.which stands in my name and in my honourable friends. I know the

:38:06. > :38:10.minister has on many occasions, who's not here because of I

:38:11. > :38:14.preplanned Parliamentary delegation which she's part of, who did a

:38:15. > :38:17.tremendous job in committee on this bill and has universally been

:38:18. > :38:24.praised on both sides for her efforts. Regarding new clause six,

:38:25. > :38:30.whilst subtitling is at or near 100% across public service broadcasters,

:38:31. > :38:33.three quarters of the UK's 90 on demand providers still offer no

:38:34. > :38:37.subtitles at all. This is despite the fact that nearly one in five of

:38:38. > :38:42.the UK population use them, according to Ofcom. The principle

:38:43. > :38:47.behind the communications act recognise that those with sensory

:38:48. > :38:51.loss should not be denied access to the information service that's many

:38:52. > :38:56.of us take for granteded, those with sensory loss cannot keep up with the

:38:57. > :39:00.changing technology. In July 2013, the then minister for the digital

:39:01. > :39:05.economy, the honourable member for Didcot and wantage, acknowledged

:39:06. > :39:11.this, arguing that, "If progress isn't made in three years' time, we

:39:12. > :39:15.will consider legislation. " That was in the department's document

:39:16. > :39:20.connectivity, content and consumers 2013. Here we are, three years

:39:21. > :39:24.later, with an appropriate legislative vehicle right here in

:39:25. > :39:28.front of us and the Government failing to act. We wonder why. There

:39:29. > :39:33.were strong rumblings that the Government were planning to act and

:39:34. > :39:37.we were checking the amendment paper every day anticipating that they

:39:38. > :39:42.would. So it's odd that we as the Opposition have to bring forward

:39:43. > :39:45.this new clause, which takes on the concerns of the Government, when

:39:46. > :39:48.it's supposed to be the other way round, the Government taking on the

:39:49. > :39:54.concerns of other people in the House during the course a bill. New

:39:55. > :39:58.clause six would update the existing regulatory regime and apply it to

:39:59. > :40:01.on-demand. It's clearly time the Government acted to reflect the

:40:02. > :40:05.digital world in which we live and allow those with sensory loss to

:40:06. > :40:08.play a full and active part in it, so the Government should accept new

:40:09. > :40:14.clause six. I look forward to the minister telling us that he will.

:40:15. > :40:20.New clause eight, I will of course. On new clause six, does my

:40:21. > :40:29.honourable friend find it shocking that Virgin, we discuss provision of

:40:30. > :40:34.telephony, but Tivo under their system, one of the 21 on demand

:40:35. > :40:37.services, less than 5% offered through Virgin have subtitles, isn't

:40:38. > :40:43.that a prime example to my honourable friend of why we need new

:40:44. > :40:48.clause six? It is a prime example. I may even have had it in my notes

:40:49. > :40:52.before I trinkiated them considerably to make progress. He's

:40:53. > :40:56.right to point that out. I move to new clause eight which opposes the

:40:57. > :41:02.way the Government is dealing with the free TV licenses for over 75s.

:41:03. > :41:07.The continuation of free TV licenses for over 75s was a promise that was

:41:08. > :41:13.made in the Conservative Party's manifesto, a manifesto which many

:41:14. > :41:17.over 75s voted for in good faith and now just 16 months later, the

:41:18. > :41:23.Government's legislating to do away with that pledge in all but name. On

:41:24. > :41:28.the pretence that it should now be for the BBC to decide who gets a

:41:29. > :41:33.free television license. I'm afraid the promise contained in the

:41:34. > :41:38.manifesto was pretty unequivocal. It said, "We will maintain the current

:41:39. > :41:43.pensioner benefits, including winter fuel payments, free bus passes, free

:41:44. > :41:46.prescriptions and TV licenses." Notice all that list of Labour

:41:47. > :41:53.achievements in that quote, by the way. It said "maintain" not play

:41:54. > :41:57.pass the policy parcel. Which is what the Government is doing.

:41:58. > :42:02.They're legislating to hand over responsibility to a body which will

:42:03. > :42:06.not be able to afford to maintain that entitlement. I will give way.

:42:07. > :42:09.Would my honourable friend accept that this is actually a political

:42:10. > :42:15.decision and it's wrong to compromise the BBC in this way,

:42:16. > :42:20.where they're in tune to politics. Far be it to me to accuse the

:42:21. > :42:25.Government for taking political decisions, it's the House of Commons

:42:26. > :42:29.after all, but nevertheless, it's a broken promise masquerading as an

:42:30. > :42:33.administrative change. If he was implying that it's a craven

:42:34. > :42:39.approach, he would be right to say that as well. I'm sure the minister

:42:40. > :42:42.will argue that in fact the BBC are somehow being rewarded handsomely in

:42:43. > :42:46.the charter renewal process and that the BBC will decide their funding

:42:47. > :42:50.policy for over 75s set within that context and will claim support from

:42:51. > :42:54.the BBC for what they are doing, because the BBC have said they are

:42:55. > :42:58.in favour. It's the kind of support you get Madam Deputy Speaker, when

:42:59. > :43:03.someone with a loaded gun places it gets your head and asks for your

:43:04. > :43:07.support. There's a reason why the BBC have agrowed to take over

:43:08. > :43:11.control of setting entitlement for over 75s licenses, that's because

:43:12. > :43:16.they know they can't afford it at its current rate. The BBC should

:43:17. > :43:20.never have been given the responsibility for delivering on a

:43:21. > :43:26.Conservative Party manifesto pledge. Frankly, I will give way. I

:43:27. > :43:35.apologise for interrupting his flow once again. But giving the BBC this

:43:36. > :43:40.short straw was at the same time as they were renegotiating their

:43:41. > :43:49.future. The BBC was under durs when they had to accept this -- duress.

:43:50. > :43:53.That is why the Meta foreof the loaded -- metafore of the loaded

:43:54. > :43:56.gun. We don't have this a deal negotiated in good faith, that's

:43:57. > :44:02.what the honourable gentleman is referring to, it's actually a little

:44:03. > :44:07.more that blackmail. Our new clause eight is very clear. Did somebody,

:44:08. > :44:10.yes, of course, I will. I apologise for being controversial, but he

:44:11. > :44:14.won't agree with. This but this is like the triple lock. The fact is

:44:15. > :44:20.that there are a lot of pensioners over the age of 75 who are perfectly

:44:21. > :44:23.capable of paying a license. Maybe we should concentrate resources on

:44:24. > :44:28.people who really can't afford to pay, that piling more and more

:44:29. > :44:31.benefits on the way to pension -- on the weight of pensions. I know it's

:44:32. > :44:36.controversial but it's a point to make. It's anner tire legitimate

:44:37. > :44:41.point of view. That's not what's under here. What is under discussion

:44:42. > :44:44.is who should take that decision. We say that decision should be taken by

:44:45. > :44:48.this House and the Government should be brave enough to face the

:44:49. > :44:51.electorate saying - we have decided in the way that the honourable

:44:52. > :44:55.gentleman suggests that this policy is not a priority. Instead of which

:44:56. > :45:00.it is pretending somehow or other that it is keeping its pledge whilst

:45:01. > :45:02.transferring responsibility to an unaccountable body. I know the

:45:03. > :45:07.honourable gentleman in his long Parliamentary career has been very,

:45:08. > :45:11.very powerfully, a powerful advocate on behalf of this House and

:45:12. > :45:15.democracy and against this kind of transfer of responsibility From From

:45:16. > :45:19.Both Sides Now this House from -- from this House, to the duly located

:45:20. > :45:22.Government. That's why I hope he will you under the amendment. It's a

:45:23. > :45:26.point of principle that I'm getting at really for us. We can't accept

:45:27. > :45:31.the policy which takes responsibility for even a small part

:45:32. > :45:35.of our Social Security system and gives it to an organisation with no

:45:36. > :45:39.direct accountability to the electorate. So if this amendment

:45:40. > :45:43.fails, Labour will do everything in our power to make it clear to those

:45:44. > :45:49.millions of over 75s exactly what is going on. It's not the BBC which

:45:50. > :45:55.will be reducing or taking away your entitlement to TV licenses, it was

:45:56. > :45:59.the Government who knowingly engineered this particular change.

:46:00. > :46:07.If you look at the Budget 2016 red book it's clear how much money the

:46:08. > :46:14.Government is intending to save from this, 2018/19, 185 million. In

:46:15. > :46:19.?2020/21725 million. I turn to our new clause 17. This aims to

:46:20. > :46:23.modernise the public service broadcaster regime as recommended by

:46:24. > :46:28.Ofcom. Existing law to be extended to include on demand channels and

:46:29. > :46:33.men use. The broadcasting landscape has changed significantly, due to

:46:34. > :46:37.the emergence of new technologies, iPlayer, iPad, digital TV

:46:38. > :46:44.switchover, whilst this legislation ensured the communications act 2003

:46:45. > :46:48.ensured prominence on broadcast TV it does not apply to catch up

:46:49. > :46:53.services or connected sets. Connected TVs, for example like Sky

:46:54. > :46:58.Cube box move the TV guide, where public service broadcasters occupy

:46:59. > :47:02.the most prominent positions so it is increasingly hard to find.

:47:03. > :47:07.Public, seven out of ten of the public, say they want the TV channel

:47:08. > :47:12.ats the top of channel listings and they want the iPlayer and on demand

:47:13. > :47:17.service there too. Amongst connected TV users they are ten times more

:47:18. > :47:20.likely to see the TV guide first than the platform operator's

:47:21. > :47:24.recommendations first. This holds true in focus groups, where

:47:25. > :47:29.consumers gave feed back of the obscuring of the TV guide. One said,

:47:30. > :47:35."I love Sky Cube, but I would change where the TV guide is. It's almost

:47:36. > :47:38.tucked away somewhere on my screen. You expect technology to make life

:47:39. > :47:44.easier. But this is making it harder. It's an extra step."

:47:45. > :47:47.Essentially the public are paying towards things like BBC content

:47:48. > :47:51.which is becoming increasingly hard to find as a result. The minister

:47:52. > :47:56.argued in committee that Ofcom should adapt the code in line with

:47:57. > :48:00.neck know logical developments. -- technological developments. But

:48:01. > :48:06.Ofcom has called for legislative change. The point was made that the

:48:07. > :48:11.TV guide is in declining importance due to TV and internet services

:48:12. > :48:16.however nine out of ten of those who watch live or on demand use the EPG

:48:17. > :48:20.to access TV programmes. Our new clause builds upon the current

:48:21. > :48:24.system with a strong duty placed on Ofcom to provide clearer guidelines

:48:25. > :48:27.than at present. Then industry applying these as appropriate to

:48:28. > :48:30.their platforms. If the Government really believes in public service

:48:31. > :48:37.broadcasting and it says it does. It should support our new clause 17.

:48:38. > :48:41.Turning now to new clause 18. This is about the listed sport egg vents

:48:42. > :48:46.regime which ensures events such as the Olympics are freely and widely

:48:47. > :48:51.available. Unfortunately, this is at risk. Our new clause would help to

:48:52. > :48:56.safeguard listed events into the future. 45 million people in the UK

:48:57. > :49:01.watched the Rio 2016 Olympics. Millions watched the euros,

:49:02. > :49:06.including Wales' stunning run to the semifinals, this summer. Listed

:49:07. > :49:12.events are responsible for 5% of sports output but 60% of sports

:49:13. > :49:16.viewing in this country. The current law specifies that 95% of the

:49:17. > :49:21.population must be reached by a channel for it to acquire listed

:49:22. > :49:26.events rights. Due to the proliferation of alternative media

:49:27. > :49:30.devices PSBs believe that by the end of this Parliament no TV channel

:49:31. > :49:36.will meet that 95% reach criteria. So we're offering a solution in new

:49:37. > :49:40.clause 18. There's a crucial legal difference between receiving a

:49:41. > :49:42.channel and watching it. Replacing the criterion on the capability to

:49:43. > :49:48.receive a channel with an alternative that it has been watched

:49:49. > :49:52.based on its uses over the past year would capture factors like

:49:53. > :49:57.continuous free to air availability, popularity and audience awareness.

:49:58. > :50:02.This new clause would also lower the threshold from 95% to 90%. New

:50:03. > :50:06.clause 18 would give the Secretary of State powers to amend that

:50:07. > :50:12.threshold so that the law is flexible enough to reflect

:50:13. > :50:15.consumption strends and change in new and unpredictable way. New

:50:16. > :50:20.clause 15. Over the past few years there have been a series of round

:50:21. > :50:25.table discussions with search engines, including Google, binning,

:50:26. > :50:30.Yahoo! And rights holders including the British phonographic industry,

:50:31. > :50:35.music publy sifts association and alliance for intellectual property.

:50:36. > :50:44.They have been trying to negotiate a code of practice to copyright

:50:45. > :50:47.infringements. These discussions are dragging on. They are yet to find

:50:48. > :50:51.agreement. Our amendment would provide the Secretary of State with

:50:52. > :50:55.the powers to legislate that a code of practice be agreed if the next

:50:56. > :51:01.rounds of talks fail to come to a conclusion. Piracy continues to

:51:02. > :51:05.weaken the UK recording music industry, for example, academic

:51:06. > :51:10.evidence based on average retail prices and Ofcom's tracker survey

:51:11. > :51:14.indicates a loss of between ?150 million and ?300 million a year. Our

:51:15. > :51:18.new clause would give the Secretary of State a back stop power to

:51:19. > :51:22.legislate that a code of practice be agreed. I think the Government

:51:23. > :51:27.should accept that it's now time for action in relation so that. -- to

:51:28. > :51:31.that. On that point, this was actually a point put in the

:51:32. > :51:34.Conservative manifesto. It would be ffrt if the Government would come

:51:35. > :51:37.forward and support this amendment today to implement a promise they

:51:38. > :51:41.made at the last general election. Once again my honourable friend

:51:42. > :51:45.anticipates something that I was dough to say but I didn't say and

:51:46. > :51:49.she is absolutely correct to point that out. Clearly the figures show

:51:50. > :51:53.that isn't being implemented even though the minister claimed in

:51:54. > :51:58.committee it was. I turn now to our new clause 16. This is about public

:51:59. > :52:02.lending right. Honourable members might be surprised to know it

:52:03. > :52:07.doesn't extend to e-books where they're borrowed remotely. By their

:52:08. > :52:13.very nature they are borrowed remotely. It's ludicrous that 2. 3

:52:14. > :52:22.million remote loans were made in the last year none of which were

:52:23. > :52:25.counted for public lending right. This predicament has been

:52:26. > :52:28.significantly worsened by the closure of public libraries

:52:29. > :52:36.occurring on this Government's watch as a result of its failed now we

:52:37. > :52:42.know austerity policies. This clause would close the loophole and the

:52:43. > :52:45.support of several bodies. In 2013, the Government seemed to say they

:52:46. > :52:49.were going to do something about this, following the independent

:52:50. > :52:55.review of e lending in public libraries in England, the Government

:52:56. > :52:59.said they intended to reflect technological changes. Had they done

:53:00. > :53:04.so, other problems with e-books could have been resolved, such as

:53:05. > :53:07.e-books being subject to VAT but physical books have done. They

:53:08. > :53:12.haven't and the issue remain unreSoved. The new clause is simple.

:53:13. > :53:18.The issue is acknowledged by the Government. It's in nobody's

:53:19. > :53:20.interest to leave it unresolved. At committee stage, it was

:53:21. > :53:26.un-Co-operative I hope that changes today. Turning now to our new clause

:53:27. > :53:30.30. The aim of this new clause is to tackle a proliferation of devices

:53:31. > :53:36.which either alone or in conjunction with other technology give access to

:53:37. > :53:42.copyright infringing material. The most well knownical pull is the

:53:43. > :53:46.internet protocol TV box, a recent Government report found a 33%

:53:47. > :53:50.increase in the illegal downloading of TV programmes between March and

:53:51. > :53:56.May 2015 compared with the same months two years earlier.

:53:57. > :54:02.When we discussed this in committee, the government claimed this issue

:54:03. > :54:09.was covered by other laws, such as the Ford axed 20 -- 2006 but the

:54:10. > :54:14.broadcasting and creative industries disagree that this is enough. They

:54:15. > :54:23.argue that this must be pursued by the police, especially since IT

:54:24. > :54:28.resources are thinly spread. Alan new clause should command government

:54:29. > :54:31.support in the light of its enforcement strategy. The IP

:54:32. > :54:37.Minister from another place said the government would "Look at new areas

:54:38. > :54:42.where we might need to create new legal tools to tackle new modes of

:54:43. > :54:46.infringement. We will look at legislation around set-top boxes and

:54:47. > :54:52.whether we have enough effective remedies to tackle that." New

:54:53. > :54:56.thinking is needed. If the government won't legislate in this

:54:57. > :54:59.bill, when will they? If they are serious about meeting their

:55:00. > :55:04.obligations in their own enforcement strategy, they should implement our

:55:05. > :55:10.new clause. I move onto new clause 30 one. Am

:55:11. > :55:16.not moving this clause because it was in our name originally in a

:55:17. > :55:20.different name -- number. We withdrew it and then added our names

:55:21. > :55:23.in support to allow the Select Committee to table it on a

:55:24. > :55:31.cross-party basis. Other colleagues were won't to talk more about that.

:55:32. > :55:37.This is about buying a ticket and the extortionate prices at which

:55:38. > :55:43.they are sold on secondary sites making access to entertainment

:55:44. > :55:49.harder for the public. I want to pay tribute to my fellow member for

:55:50. > :55:55.Sunderland West for her tireless and energetic campaigning on this is

:55:56. > :56:00.you. I will give way. Can I thank my honourable friend for giving way.

:56:01. > :56:04.Does he agree with me that true fans do not stand a chance, touts have

:56:05. > :56:07.evolved from blokes wearing sheepskin jackets lurking outside

:56:08. > :56:14.stadiums trying to sell spare tickets to becoming IT crooks who

:56:15. > :56:21.harvest thousands of tickets seconds after they go on sale? I do agree

:56:22. > :56:24.with that. The minister gave a tear-jerking story in committee

:56:25. > :56:31.about his own efforts to buy a ticket to a Paul Simon concert at

:56:32. > :56:34.the Royal Albert Hall. We look forward to hearing, when he comes to

:56:35. > :56:46.his seat at the moment... I must take this opportunity I will give

:56:47. > :56:49.way. I am really looking forward to the contribution that my honourable

:56:50. > :56:54.friend from Washington will be making in a moment. Is this the

:56:55. > :56:58.moment that we finally do something about ticket touts in this House? I

:56:59. > :57:02.haven't been an MP for all that long and we have been talking about this

:57:03. > :57:09.for a long time. On behalf of all those fans are just want to enjoy

:57:10. > :57:12.music. Justin Bieber tickets on sale for ?1000 and can we make sure that

:57:13. > :57:20.everybody in our country can enjoy music? My honourable friend makes

:57:21. > :57:25.that point passionately. I'm must take the opportunity to pay tribute

:57:26. > :57:29.to my honourable friend from Sunderland and Washington and I hope

:57:30. > :57:35.we can play a part in her getting a good result when the minister gives

:57:36. > :57:39.way on this point. She has pointed out in correspondence with us about

:57:40. > :57:46.an analogy sent in by an individual an analogy sent in by an individual

:57:47. > :57:49.who pointed out that the ticket tout approached is nothing more than a

:57:50. > :57:53.protection racket because the bad guys create the problem and then

:57:54. > :57:59.they go around charging everybody else. Think that problem. And so

:58:00. > :58:04.this new clause would acknowledge ticket touting for what it is,

:58:05. > :58:07.criminal exploitation. I hope the government will listen to those

:58:08. > :58:12.speaking from all sides of the House and do all it can to prevent and

:58:13. > :58:17.prosecute. What my right honourable friend agree with me that another

:58:18. > :58:22.thing might need -- that might need to be tackled if the scandal of

:58:23. > :58:26.administration fees. UK 50 quid for the ticket and 20 quid for the

:58:27. > :58:33.booking fee. It should be ?70 up front. I understand the point is

:58:34. > :58:38.making, but I will stick to the closes down in our name.

:58:39. > :58:43.I am now onto new clause five which for the first time would establish a

:58:44. > :58:47.duty on companies to report a breach of cyber security and inform

:58:48. > :58:51.customers where possible. Just 28% of attacks are reported to the

:58:52. > :58:56.police. We welcome the announcement from the minister that he will be

:58:57. > :59:08.implementing the GDP are in full but only -- that only provides extensive

:59:09. > :59:12.caveats and falls short. Our clause would impose a duty on data

:59:13. > :59:18.controllers to inform in the event of a breach of data security.

:59:19. > :59:28.New clause 11, this is about a public register of share data. It

:59:29. > :59:35.would require all new shares to be that share dealings to be disclosed.

:59:36. > :59:40.It would be transparency -- if there was transparency about shading there

:59:41. > :59:49.would be information about whether problem can be solved.

:59:50. > :59:54.There have been absence of orders in response of. The argument is that

:59:55. > :00:08.the current data should not -- has not prevented fraud. Part five of

:00:09. > :00:16.the bill will remain a concern but we asked the governor to accept

:00:17. > :00:19.clause 11. I turned clause 12. This is about data collection, the

:00:20. > :00:25.currency of the Digital economy but this bill has done nothing to

:00:26. > :00:29.address people's right over the data which are increasingly a cause for

:00:30. > :00:34.concern. Consumer mistrust in the digital economy and the use of our

:00:35. > :00:38.data is becoming corrosive. We are calling for a Royal commission over

:00:39. > :00:43.the use of our data in the commercial sector, to establish its

:00:44. > :00:48.extent and to draw up a bill of rights on which consumers can rely

:00:49. > :00:52.upon. This would put a requirement on government to commission an

:00:53. > :00:55.independent review of the information and data and

:00:56. > :00:58.administration under which we would seek to establish what direction the

:00:59. > :01:04.stated policy intent of government and big business for individuals to

:01:05. > :01:10.have control over their own data is heading. Many providers are in the

:01:11. > :01:15.market for data and are many ways in which our data can be modified. It

:01:16. > :01:20.only takes one exposing on dispatches or a mail on Sunday

:01:21. > :01:24.scandal and the government will be full to react. And it will likely

:01:25. > :01:29.overreact. This bill provides an excellent opportunity to look at

:01:30. > :01:37.these problems in the light of day. New clause 19 is about free school

:01:38. > :01:41.meals. Currently, many families eligible for free school wheels

:01:42. > :01:46.don't claim them. This clause would explicitly set out that councils can

:01:47. > :01:49.share benefit data with school to allow eligible children to be

:01:50. > :01:58.automatically enrolled rather having to apply. -- rather than. I'm

:01:59. > :02:06.grateful for this, this was an issue raised in committee. This should

:02:07. > :02:10.waive the two tier authorities in cases like free school meals,

:02:11. > :02:16.there's an ability for both of our authorities share data seamlessly as

:02:17. > :02:22.unitary authorities doing men # Metropolitan areas.

:02:23. > :02:32.I agree and I would recommend anybody to read his longer remarks.

:02:33. > :02:37.I'm grateful for this amendment because it follows a private members

:02:38. > :02:42.bill that I introduced. Following the example that Liverpool made,

:02:43. > :02:47.will did the automatic registration for free school meals and resulted

:02:48. > :02:54.in three quarters of ?1 million more money coming into the area to target

:02:55. > :02:58.those poorest families. He is correct, he anticipated that I was

:02:59. > :03:02.going to say that I wanted to praise him and the honourable member again

:03:03. > :03:06.for Washington and Sunderland West for the work done in this area. We

:03:07. > :03:11.hope the government can support what I think is a very sensible

:03:12. > :03:22.amendment. Now, I turn to amendment three, our final one. In the

:03:23. > :03:28.aftermath of care. Data scandal it is vital that patients can have come

:03:29. > :03:31.evidence in the health service and have confidence in sharing

:03:32. > :03:36.information with health care professionals. Part five of the bill

:03:37. > :03:40.would appear to permit an unprecedented sharing of

:03:41. > :03:43.confidential information, particularly cool 29. We are

:03:44. > :03:52.concerned that if information sharing powers in clause 29

:03:53. > :03:54.including information held by bodies providing health care,

:03:55. > :04:01.confidentiality would be undermined. We will ensure that this information

:04:02. > :04:05.is exempt from the information powers in clause 20 nine. Thereby

:04:06. > :04:10.upholding current projections for confidentiality. We believe the bill

:04:11. > :04:15.should be amended to ensure patient confidentiality is protected by

:04:16. > :04:19.clarifying that the bill does not give powers to public authorities to

:04:20. > :04:24.disclose health care information. This would bring clause 29 in line

:04:25. > :04:28.with clause 56 which says information can be shared for

:04:29. > :04:35.research purposes. This was amended at committee stage to prevent any

:04:36. > :04:40.erosion of the protections against information sharing. We believe

:04:41. > :04:45.similar prediction should be extended to part five of the bill.

:04:46. > :04:51.Before I sit down, I will give way to the honourable gentleman. This

:04:52. > :04:56.may have come up in committee will make up later, that the National

:04:57. > :04:59.Union of Journalists' concerns about journalists not been mentioned on

:05:00. > :05:05.private data being shared, does up now or later on? You may have missed

:05:06. > :05:08.it but we have had second reading and committee stage, and we are now

:05:09. > :05:13.at report stage so it will have to come up in the House of Lords. It

:05:14. > :05:24.may also come up... The honourable lady has an amendment at in this

:05:25. > :05:32.group. Code of practice, accessibility to on demand services

:05:33. > :05:36.for people affected his -- with problems affecting visibility all

:05:37. > :05:44.sides. The question is, that new clause 60 read a second time. I will

:05:45. > :05:47.resist the temptation to be drawn by the honourable gentleman into

:05:48. > :05:51.discussing his new clause eight covering the funding of the free

:05:52. > :05:57.television licences, it is an issue which we have debated at some length

:05:58. > :06:00.in the past already. Instead, in the spirit of consensus, I would like to

:06:01. > :06:06.concentrate on some of those other amendments where I have great

:06:07. > :06:15.sympathy. The first, new clause 15, we discuss at second reading. The

:06:16. > :06:18.concern that the creative industries complaints about the fact that

:06:19. > :06:25.search engines regularly produce a majority of illegal sites when

:06:26. > :06:29.seeking content through Google and other search engines. That has been

:06:30. > :06:36.the subject of discussion between the search companies and the rights

:06:37. > :06:40.owners and the government for a long time. Progress has been grey seal.

:06:41. > :06:46.Since we have that discussion at second reading, -- progress has been

:06:47. > :06:51.placed seal. We have had the opportunity of talking to Google.

:06:52. > :06:56.They made the point that if you put in the name of the artist and the

:06:57. > :06:59.name of the track that you wish, the overwhelming majority are illegal

:07:00. > :07:08.results. That is certainly progress. It is better than it used to be. --

:07:09. > :07:15.the majority are legal. The majority live don't want to break the law,

:07:16. > :07:19.but find them selves being directed to illegal sites, that is a step

:07:20. > :07:24.forward. But that doesn't deal with the problem of people who don't want

:07:25. > :07:36.to pay for music. If you put an additional couple of terms into the

:07:37. > :07:44.search line, such as MP3 or "Free", you get different results. That

:07:45. > :07:49.remains a big problem. He knows and he has the new results from the

:07:50. > :07:53.intellectual property office, 78 million tracks were illegally access

:07:54. > :07:58.between March and May this year. 20% of all access to the Internet for

:07:59. > :08:01.music is illegal downloads. It was promised in the Conservative Party

:08:02. > :08:04.manifesto that it will be dealt with. Does he believe now is a time

:08:05. > :08:13.for action? I do think that more needs to be

:08:14. > :08:19.done. The counter to that statistic is the number of pages that have

:08:20. > :08:24.been taken down. The bpi alone are notifying half a million infringing

:08:25. > :08:32.pages, and they are promptly removed. As soon as one comes down,

:08:33. > :08:35.more go up. The need to achieve greater agreement between the search

:08:36. > :08:40.companies and the rights editors remains as great as it ever did, and

:08:41. > :08:45.so the idea that the Government should spur them on to get that

:08:46. > :08:49.agreement by saying that unless it can be obtained, the Government may

:08:50. > :08:55.have to be imposed a code of practice, I think is something we

:08:56. > :09:00.now need to at least consider. I don't necessarily say that I support

:09:01. > :09:04.the honourable gentleman's new clause, but I have considerable

:09:05. > :09:09.sympathy. We have a long way to go to solve this problem, and at the

:09:10. > :09:16.moment, the progress is almost impossible to detect. The second new

:09:17. > :09:21.clause, that I have even greater sympathy with, is his new clause 13.

:09:22. > :09:25.My right honourable friend on the front bench is a champion of the

:09:26. > :09:31.creative industries, because he knows that our economy benefits

:09:32. > :09:38.enormously from the strength of the UK creative industry. The success of

:09:39. > :09:42.that industry rests on IP rights. They have to be confident that the

:09:43. > :09:47.investment that they make, and their skills, will receive proper award

:09:48. > :09:51.from consumers who pay for that content. It isn't just the film

:09:52. > :09:56.industry, the television industry, the music industry and the sports

:09:57. > :10:00.companies. It is also our broadcasters, who are spending

:10:01. > :10:05.billions of pounds to acquire rights, and they are entitled to

:10:06. > :10:15.expect that the people who can then access those rights should be people

:10:16. > :10:17.who can do so legitimately, and can pay for it, not through illegal

:10:18. > :10:23.streams from offshore. The latest development in the technology is IP

:10:24. > :10:30.TV set-top boxes. These are now being marketed in vast numbers, and

:10:31. > :10:36.they arrive fully loaded with the codes and the access to go straight

:10:37. > :10:42.to the sites which are providing illegal content. It may be the case

:10:43. > :10:46.that an empty set-top box is not itself illegal, but clearly where it

:10:47. > :10:51.is being marketed on the basis that it is all too simple to fill it with

:10:52. > :10:55.the apps and the codes which will get to illegal sites is the problem

:10:56. > :10:59.we need to address. I will give my right honourable friend an example

:11:00. > :11:05.that was quoted to me today. This was an advert on Amazon Black Friday

:11:06. > :11:14.sales. We are talking no more than a couple of days ago. It read, come

:11:15. > :11:18.with the newest Cody 16.1. Cut your monthly TV subscription and enjoy

:11:19. > :11:24.free movies, shows, and live entertainment from all over the

:11:25. > :11:28.world, including sports. Forget the limitations and necessary payments

:11:29. > :11:35.by using Apple TV or Android on your TV. This is being marketed on

:11:36. > :11:41.Amazon, and those boxes are being shipped in their millions from China

:11:42. > :11:50.in the main, but elsewhere also Mac. They are very clearly being used to

:11:51. > :11:55.make it easy for consumers to access content free and illegally. That is

:11:56. > :11:59.doing real damage to our creative industry. I'm sure that the

:12:00. > :12:07.honourable gentleman's amendment is the right way, but the problem it

:12:08. > :12:11.identifies is a very real one. Therefore I hope that the Government

:12:12. > :12:16.will look to see what additional measures we can do to ensure that

:12:17. > :12:21.our IP law remains up-to-date with the technological developments which

:12:22. > :12:26.are now once again threatening our creative industries. The last new

:12:27. > :12:30.clause I want to refer to is new clause 30 one. When I had the

:12:31. > :12:36.privilege of chairing the Select Committee, we spent a lot of time

:12:37. > :12:42.discussing ticket touting. At that stage, we were unconvinced that it

:12:43. > :12:46.was right either to ban the secondary market, or necessarily to

:12:47. > :12:53.impose a flat rate top up limit as to how much extra could be charged

:12:54. > :12:58.on a ticket. Those were two possible solutions. We felt that this was

:12:59. > :13:02.more an issue for the industry and the market to address, and indeed

:13:03. > :13:09.the industry has worked hard to introduce technological requirements

:13:10. > :13:13.designed to stop people selling on tickets. However, I was interested

:13:14. > :13:19.to hear from the honourable gentleman about my right honourable

:13:20. > :13:24.friend's Paul Simon 's experience. I do not necessarily share his musical

:13:25. > :13:29.taste, that when I sought to buy tickets for the V Festival, and was

:13:30. > :13:33.presented with the inability to get onto the website within the first

:13:34. > :13:38.ten minutes, and then in the 12 minutes was informed it was sold

:13:39. > :13:43.out, and in the 13th minute discovered that the tickets were

:13:44. > :13:50.being sold for four times the face value, I have some sympathy. He

:13:51. > :13:54.mentioned earlier on that there are possible industry -based solutions

:13:55. > :13:59.out there. I'm just reminded of the way that the Government handled the

:14:00. > :14:03.2012 Olympics, where you could not get tickets without providing photo

:14:04. > :14:10.ID, and it was an end-user sales, which meant that people could not

:14:11. > :14:15.buy large numbers of tickets in the way he has just described for the V

:14:16. > :14:21.Festival or for Paul Simon. So I wonder whether he feels the solution

:14:22. > :14:23.does lie with the sporting and entertainment industries, and that

:14:24. > :14:30.they could have done that several years ago. It's peculiar they should

:14:31. > :14:36.come to this place asking for legislation solution when there is a

:14:37. > :14:41.software solution out right now. I was fortunate enough to attend one

:14:42. > :14:46.of the greatest concerts of all time, the reunion concert by Led

:14:47. > :14:50.Zeppelin at the O2, where exactly that system was introduced. You had

:14:51. > :14:56.to produce the credit card which was used to purchase the ticket in order

:14:57. > :15:01.to get it. You didn't get the ticket until you arrived at the venue. But

:15:02. > :15:05.that does impose quite a considerable additional burden on

:15:06. > :15:10.the ticket purchaser, either to supply a photograph or to take

:15:11. > :15:23.credit cards. That does not assist where there is a legitimate reason

:15:24. > :15:25.why somebody might want to transfer their ticket to another person,

:15:26. > :15:28.because for some reason they are not able to go. We do not want to stop

:15:29. > :15:30.the secondary market working in a way that is legitimate in some

:15:31. > :15:36.circumstances. Since the Select Committee looked at this matter

:15:37. > :15:41.under his chairmanship, one of the big changes is technology. This

:15:42. > :15:45.technology has effectively destroyed the primary market, because for most

:15:46. > :15:52.people, they have no chance of buying the tickets they want. I do

:15:53. > :15:59.agree. That was my experience when I sought to purchase tickets. For that

:16:00. > :16:06.reason, I think that the suggestion contained in new clause 30 to target

:16:07. > :16:15.specifically the electronic purchasing in a short period of the

:16:16. > :16:21.almost the entire ticket allocation automatically is something that is

:16:22. > :16:27.clearly going to prevent ordinary fans from accessing it. I cannot

:16:28. > :16:32.believe it is what the promoters want to happen. So to look

:16:33. > :16:40.specifically at this problem is an interesting approach, and certainly

:16:41. > :16:43.worth exploring further. Thank you, Madam Deputy Speaker. I am pleased

:16:44. > :16:48.to follow the honourable member for Maldon. I was a little unkind to him

:16:49. > :16:54.earlier this evening, so I would like to make amends by saying that

:16:55. > :17:01.he spoke a lot of good sense on the matter of illegal downloads. I would

:17:02. > :17:11.like to on clause 25 and 26. I need to say that... Amendments. Isn't

:17:12. > :17:19.that what I said? Amendments 25 and 26. I am the chair of the all-party

:17:20. > :17:24.Parliamentary group for the NUJ. The arrangements for the secretary act

:17:25. > :17:32.appear under my name in the register of interests. The NUJ were extremely

:17:33. > :17:36.helpful in drawing this problem to my attention, and drafting the

:17:37. > :17:41.amendments. In its current form, part five of the Bill appears to put

:17:42. > :17:49.freedom of expression and journalistic rights under serious

:17:50. > :17:53.threat by criminalising onward unauthorised disclosure of

:17:54. > :17:57.information, specifically clauses 49 and 50 completely fail to recognise

:17:58. > :18:02.the role of journalists in providing information that is in the public

:18:03. > :18:09.interest. This is the point that the honourable member for Worthing was

:18:10. > :18:14.trying to raise. Clause 32 as well, which comes earlier. I hope the

:18:15. > :18:19.Government will respond on the amendments and the whole section. In

:18:20. > :18:24.the current version of the Bill, publications made in the media that

:18:25. > :18:27.are in the public interest are not in the list of exceptional

:18:28. > :18:34.circumstances in which information to combat fraud in the public sector

:18:35. > :18:40.and information related to this can be disclosed. So if a whistle-blower

:18:41. > :18:44.were to leak the records of a private company to a journalist

:18:45. > :18:52.without authorisation, and the journalist ran a story based on it,

:18:53. > :18:55.both parties could receive criminal sentences. This is quick to

:18:56. > :19:01.particularly pertinent for clause 50, which states that a person who

:19:02. > :19:07.discloses information not in the particular circumstances will be

:19:08. > :19:10.committing an offence. If the minister cannot respond, because it

:19:11. > :19:15.is quite complex, I would like him to write to me about the definition

:19:16. > :19:21.of the information covered and the definition of the public sector

:19:22. > :19:25.here. I was given information about a company currently owned by the

:19:26. > :19:31.taxpayer as a subsidiary of one of the banks we bought in 2008. This

:19:32. > :19:39.company was selling tax avoidance schemes in Switzerland. Now I spoke

:19:40. > :19:43.about that in the House, but had I given that information to a

:19:44. > :19:49.journalist, and it had been printed in a newspaper, under these

:19:50. > :19:53.provisions it would appear to be the case that the journalist or the

:19:54. > :19:59.newspaper would be criminalised. This cannot be the Government's

:20:00. > :20:05.intention. I'm sure the Government doesn't like leaks about concentric.

:20:06. > :20:09.I'm sure the Government doesn't like the leaks about sustainability and

:20:10. > :20:12.transformation plans in the NHS, but I am equally sure that the

:20:13. > :20:15.Government isn't trying to clamp down on the effectiveness of the

:20:16. > :20:26.media in our country to such an extent that we can't use leaks about

:20:27. > :20:33.these sources. I can confirm that it is neither the intent nor our

:20:34. > :20:37.understanding of the Bill as drafted to do those things, but it is our

:20:38. > :20:46.intent to protect personal information. I'm glad it isn't the

:20:47. > :20:50.Minister's intent, but the media lawyers Association also highlighted

:20:51. > :20:55.that they thought there was a problem in their written evidence.

:20:56. > :21:00.So if the Minister wants to avoid his colleagues in another place